[Video] Is Modern Chivalry Dead?
This is part of a new video series that I shot with my friends at Three Day Rule, a national matchmaking service associated with Match.com. TDR sent a camera crew to my house to capture a dialogue between me and Kate Edwards.
For the next 9 weeks, I’ll be posting a new short video every Friday that should be a refreshing departure from the written blog posts I do on Mondays and Thursdays.
We kick things off with a video called “Is Modern Chivalry Dead?” Without giving anything away, Kate and I both agree that while it may be a little dormant with more passive men and aggressive women, many people still subscribe to the theory that men should court women.
In my opinion, men can complain all they want about how unfair it is that they’re supposed to call, plan and pay for the first few dates, but you’ll find few women who prefer passive men. Kate gives a simple explanation why in the video.
Thanks for watching and be sure and share both the video and your comments.
Good video but making the effort to call/plan/pay does not necessarily reflect the guy’s ability to be a good cave man. I recently went through this in a failed relationship. She kept telling me that I was doing everything right (calling, planning, paying, and much more) but she walked because she was looking for a more alpha guy who could provide more financial security (reading between the lines of what she said). I make over 6 figures and she makes about 2x what I make but her income was high risk and I think she wanted her partner to be able to secure her lifestyle without her income. I can’t do that. It was too bad (maybe).
Chivalry is just men putting in effort. PUA’s and Alpha players understand the type of effort needed to woo and impress a woman. The desire for short-term sex can often force men to put in more effort. But men who court for a prolonged length of time while a woman withholds affection will look like chumps. For the most part, men have more success when they can focus their energy on short-term relationships. Men often get lazy when it comes to long term relationships and women get bored when the excitement wears off for both of them.
This being a female-oriented blog, the video seems to only validate the “entitlement” attitude so many Western(ized) women exhibit these days. He should do this .. he should do that .. Other than re-enforcing confirmation bias (a bad thing) and the marketing promotion angle for Evan’s business (no shame in this; Evan’s just giving women [potential clients] what they want), what good does this video do to advance a solution to the problem? Hopefully, this series will offer relevant content that addresses what women can do to make themselves attractive to the men (generally alpha types, the top 10%) that they are attracted to.
But to answer the original question .. Yes, chivalry (a very traditional male act) is, for the most part, dead. But the real question should be “WHY is chivalry dead?” However, asking this requires a good amount of introspection and self-analysis thus making a lot of women uncomfortable. Ladies, you simply can’t expect men to continue honoring a traditional act when they see how women as a whole have abandoned theirs. This ‘lack of chivalry’ issue isn’t something that is experienced by women who keep their traditional obligations to the social dating/relationship contract, though I’m certain someone will chime in to counter with their anecdotal one-off experience …
I’m curious, what, specifically, is this “traditional act” or these “traditional obligations” that you allege women have abandoned?
Being subservient to men. And yes, it should be rightfully abandoned.
Scott,
Perhaps I’m a bit old-school on this one but I think the art (and it is one) of chivalry still matters. True, in the case you mention, it wasn’t enough to keep that particular relationship alive for you. Dating is like that, sometimes, you can do one thing, several things, or even everything right, and still lose out, in the end. Maybe though, you might have over-estimated what chivalry “proves” about us to a woman.
It’s true that chivalry, traditionally, had its basis in a man’s role as initiator, leader, and provider. The modern version of it (man seeks out the woman, asks the woman on a date, plans and leads the dates and other activities together, and pays for same; in other words, courts her) had its roots in a time when the role and status of women was far different. A lot has changed over the years; there are more women with advanced degrees, in higher-status jobs and professions. Many have taken on roles that were once reserved for a man’s world, and succeeded. The pill gave them more reproductive and sexual freedom, and while we can argue over how much gender equity there is, we can’t argue that there’s more than ever before. That’s changed men’s role somewhat as well; and it has led to a lot of guys not being sure how to navigate the sometimes turbulent waters. A lot of younger guys (and maybe you’re one), have started to ask, “If she wants to be equal, and she makes as much or more than I do, why do I have to plan everything, and pay for everything? Is that fair?”
Well, women have changed, and they have come a long way, but at the end of the day, they’re still women, and when it comes to being attracted to us, or not, one big, big part of it especially in the dating phase, is how we make them FEEL. Objectively, she may may not NEED you to take all the initiative, she may not NEED you to do all the planning for your dates, she may not NEED you to pay for it…but most of the time, she still WANTS you to do all that. She’s physical capable of opening a door, or seating herself, too…but she still wants you to do that for her. Why? In a word, because it makes her FEEL SPECIAL. Instead of wondering whether it’s fair or not, think about it like a dance, where you take the man’s role: take her by the hand, establish a frame and lead, and guide her around the dance floor. Think of it as a chance to let her experience you as a leader, as a protector, and a provider…as a MAN. You’re showing her, in action, not just that you can do that, but that you want to, for her. Whether that’s enough to win her heart, now that’s another matter; but what I can tell you from long experience, is that it will get you closer to that objective , than not doing it will.
I know there’s a school of thought out there, in PUA circles and elsewhere, that says that’s the wrong way to go; that traditional courtship is the way of the weak, the dreaded “Nice guy BETA male”. By that standard, the “Battle of the Sexes” is in fact that, Us vs. Them; be aloof, keep her off-balance, keep her guessing, after all the woman is your adversary; but if you’re really trying to find a relationship, is that the way you want it to start?
It’s just a thought, but instead of worrying about whether women expect too much from you, how about thinking of those gestures we call chivalry as your gift to her; something you do, just because she enjoys it, not because you expect something back in return; a gift that makes her feel valued as only a man can do. That attitude still may not win you the girl, (there’s always the possibility that she may need/want something else, that you don’t have) but I promise you it will make you a better man.
There is a problem with that Buck25. Most men have finite resources. Many men become bitter because they do everything right, and just as they allow themselves to start feeling “in love,” the woman will often leave for a better deal. Oh yeah, and then they will say that there was no exclusivity, so she didn’t do anything wrong when she started dating the new “Mr. Wonderful,” while also still dating the first guy who is doing everything right.
After this happens, men see “doing it right” as a fool’s play. They see it as a bad investment. Only a fool keeps betting on a horse that comes in last in every race. This how many men see it. Many just can’t be bothered anymore.
There is a debate going on about whether we should be living by the code, “a man never hits a woman,” or “a gentleman never hits a lady.” There is a huge difference between the two, but also something in common. What they have in common is that both require a code of chivalry from men.
What they do not have in common is that one creates an unsustainable situation because it requires nothing of women to get that chivalry. The other one requires something of her. She has to earn it. She has to complete the circle by acting like a lady.
What you see now is many men rejecting the first one and adopting the second one. As one young man said, “if she steps to me like a man, I will treat her like a man.”
The question being asked is, what’s in it for me. After all, the woman is in it for what she is getting out of it. There is nothing wrong, and everything right with the relationship between men and women being symbiotic. That’s sustainable and there’s security in that.
So what the two guys above you lamented about is that men feel it is a one way street, which they are tired of. So how can a woman change that? Well, even in these modern times, men are being asked to be traditional in dating. So, maybe women should do the same?
Maybe when a man takes her out to dinner, and other daytime activities like a walk in the beach, etc…, she can return the favor. But instead of an expensive date out, cook for him. If she isn’t comfortable taking him to her home, offer to cook at his place. If she isn’t comfortable going to his place yet, do a picnic basket, which can be done at his place of work for lunch, or at a park, the beach, etc…
I am curious what women think they can do to show that they are invested. To show that they aren’t a bad investment, or risky bet.
Sorry Russell, but you honestly lost me! I have no clue what you are trying to say when you start talking about hitting her; you’re not clear with the point you are trying to make.
I respectfully suggest that in the future you try to remember your audience.
What I mean by that is, most of your post seem to be attacking women, but remember this site is mostly for women. The few men who do comment like me, try to add to women understanding men with our comments, but mostly I try to learn more about dating from a woman’s perspective, so I don’t like to comment much.
While I strongly encourage you to challenge women on selfish or one sided thinking, I also need you to do it in a manor that is less bitter and angry, don’t attack women, because most of the women on this site are like you and I; they are trying to better themselves in dating.
Remember, Evan and his female readers didn’t make the rules for dating and courtship, they are just following them. It sucks if you are a physically, facially, or financially average or below average guy, but it is not wrong for a woman to want the sexy, tall, hot, successful guy.
…
Anyway, the one thing you did say your first paragraph that I agreed on (because I witnessed it countless times) was about why many men who aren’t alpha or players hate the idea of courting. Men invest time and effort into a woman we like hoping to win her, we honestly don’t even care about the money. But while we are doing all the courting and getting our hopes up, thinking we have a girlfriend who we are attracted to, that is also attracted to us (that is the key ingredient), the whole time we are on cloud nine, she is just interviewing us! If we fail the interview it hurts because we feel we wasted weeks on a women, that we could have been focusing on another women.
More importantly we get our hopes up, that is what really hurts about courting women, because we have to go through many rejections until a woman says yes, but it “seems” all women have to do is set back and judge the man, qualifying him like some kind of show dog begging for scraps. But those are the rules of courting, whining about it won’t change it, that is all Evan is trying to say, he doesn’t make the rules, he just reports it.
Even goes into better detail in “finding the one online” but this is why we men rush things so much
Many hot successful guys go into hiding (invisable) or they just sleeping with many of these women and when he gets older he will either get married to a much younger women or just not dating at all. The guys who go invisible are males that make very good money however they dress in average guy’s clothes and car. This way most women will leave them alone because we all know there’s plenty of women just attracted to money.
Hypergamy is the main reason. You see they want a man to take care of them however as women are making money the number of men available is much smaller so these women are competing like crazy. Women who wait for a man to take care of them end up with a man making much less than being with a man sooner because as she gets older her options are smaller.
Adrian,
Some good thoughts there. What I’m hearing in varying ways from most of the guys here, is a lot of frustration, maybe mixed with some anger, too.The question for us seems to be something like this: ” I have to invest all this effort, time. etc. in courting a woman, while she gets to just sit there, smile, and pick and choose. I have to put in all this work, only to be rejected; half the time, I don’t even know why, and that feels lousy! Why bother?” I know, used to make me feel exactly the same way. We can’t change the system, we can’t change women, and we can’t put the sexual revolution toothpaste back in the tube, so what that leaves us to work with is…us.
I’ve come to believe that some of our feelings come from a message we receive as men, from the time we’re boys. We’re taught to compete, to strive, to go for the goal….and we’re all also taught, sometimes directly, always at least by implication, that the way to do that is…TRY HARDER! Didn’t win, didn’t quite reach your goal…TRY HARDER! Keep falling short? You didn’t TRY HARD ENOUGH! Now, it’s a nice motivator…and there’s nothing wrong with it until it becomes an implicit promise that NO GOAL IS UNATTAINABLE, IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH! That’s a nice myth. IT IS ALSO A LIE! It is a lie, because it doesn’t include this little disclaimer …”so long as you have the innate capacity to achieve said goal”. All the effort in the world can’t make a midget into an NFL linebacker, or a half-wit into a neurosurgeon..and it’s not going to make an average or slightly above guy into every woman’s dream man either. Fact is, if we don’t have the ability to start with, we can try as hard as we can, for as long as we can, and that will get us…NOTHING. Still, that’s the lesson most of us absorb, and particularly when it comes to getting the woman of our dreams, it’s totally counterproductive. The reason repeated rejection hurts so much, the reason we get so frustrated with women, even angry with them, is because we continue to drink the “effort must eventually succeed” Kool-aid. What we need, gentlemen, is a new paradigm.
Obvious effort does not help our position with a woman; in fact, that more obvious it is, the more needy we look, and women despise needy men. Appear to be one, and a few women may pity you; NONE of them will respect you. Depend on it! The next thing is, focusing on a goal we do not have the wherewithal to attain is futile; that 9 or 10 we all want is just that, for all but the lucky 10% or less; stings, I know, but that’s reality.
So how do we do that? Well, once we focus on women we actually have a real chance with, there’s a lot less scarcity, and a lot less wishing and hoping invested in an uncertain outcome. That takes the pressure off, because each woman we meet is a new possibility, rather than the one and only choice (she may become that, with time and luck, but at first, she’s just another potential choice). Instead of trying to get every detail right, in order to get past the defenses of the inscrutable enemy (the way we see a woman, when we’re in try-hard mode), enjoy getting to know her, AND help her enjoy getting to know us. Taking the initiative, planning the fun, and yes, even paying for it) is a lot easier when we do it because we just want to, not because she demands it. When we can see it as a gift to her, which we give solely because it’s ours, as men, to give, not because it’s a means to a desired end, chivalry is actually fun.
We can’t change women, we can’t change the system, but we can change our attitude. Focus on the process, instead of the prize you may or may not get; focus on the moment, and just enjoy it. I don’t know how much better it works, but I do know how much better it feels.
Adrian, I apologize for not being more clear, if I lost you on that comment. So first let me make a few things clear. I have never had to hit a woman, and frankly, I would be happy if I live the rest of my life without having to do so. Maybe the reason is that I only associate with “LADIES.” I quickly remove those who are not ladies from my life. I just refuse to associate with them. I have been very lucky it seems, to not have one who is not a lady, set her sights on me in any way shape or form, such as some woman just taking issue with me for some reason in public.
What I was addressing in a broader sense is that we get the society that we encourage. Take for example the lesson about raising kids I listened to. The man said, “Don’t be mad at your kids if they only do what they are told once you start hollering at them because they are only doing what you have taught them to do.” In other words, if you tell a child to do something, and the child doesn’t do it, what do you do? Do you go administer discipline right away? Or do you let a few moments go by and then keep repeating your demand until you are hollering? And, only after hollering do you administer punishment? If so, you have taught the child that he/she doesn’t have to mind until you start hollering. So what do you have to do to get the child to mind? Holler.
Well, if you haven’t noticed, many young women these days seem to not understand reality. I say young women but there are some women who aren’t young who seem to have lost touch with reality, and that is that men are stronger. But, maybe they haven’t lost touch with reality. See, that is the first thought that comes to mind when you see some woman attacking a strong man. Ray Rice’s wife for instance. Was she crazy for attacking him not once, but twice? Maybe not. Maybe she has just had it ingrained in her that men are not allowed to hit her, no matter what she does, or how violent she gets. Why wouldn’t she think this? After all, hasn’t she heard many people, men and women say, “a man never hits a woman?”
I submit that this saying is actually very dangerous to women. What young girls should be taught from an early age is that they should not hit men, because men will hit back. Why? Because some will, even with that saying being the norm. Take Ray Rice again. He did not hit her after the first time she attacked. He hit her after she entered the elevator and attacked him again. Was he wrong? I would argue maybe not. He of course was in no danger from her slaps as far as getting knocked out. He was however in some danger. That woman has weapons on the ends of her fingers. As she is wildly flailing her hands at his face, he is in no anger of being knocked out, but he was in danger of having his life ruined. One finger nail to the eye and he might never play football again. A running back needs two eyes. Lose one eye and two thins happen. Loss of depth perception, which is crucial, and he now has a blind side, which could be deadly. In short, he would not be medically cleared to play, ever again.
But again, what on earth was a woman like that thinking? Would you attack him? I know I wouldn’t, and I know how to fight, and am of similar build. It would be stupid to attack him. He’s strong and even if I can fight, he can still do permanent damage to me. So no, I would never attack a man like that unless there was a very very good reason to do so.
As I stated, you can see videos on YouTube where women will actually hit a man and then say that he isn’t allowed to hit her back. Or they say it before hitting him. Insanity. But it has been caused by a society that has falsely lead them to believe that she does not have to earn a man’s chivalry.
How many of those domestic abuse cases were like the Ray Rice case? The woman is actually the abuser, and the guy is just defending himself? Ray Rice is not a wife abuser. He tried to walk away from her after she attacked him. He then got on the elevator, and she followed him in and attacked him again. Who is the abuser? The problem is that a man can do much more damage when he hits, so isn’t it better to teach girls to respect that? Doesn’t that make them safer?
I do see this much more with younger women, and I personally think it is not only because of one simple fact and that is because everywhere she turned, through her formative years, she was taught to disrespect men, taught that women were more physically powerful than they are, and also taught that men were not allowed to hit back. It’s a dangerous cocktail that has resulted in what we see out there these days, and it’s likely going to get worse. Heck, look at that FSU QB that got arrested a while back. The girl raises her fist at him, he grabs the wrist to keep from getting hit, so she punches him with the other hand, he hits back, and he gets arrested. Nice message that sends to young girls.
As I said, we get the society that we encourage. Girls should be encouraged to act like ladies, and then boys should be taught to be a gentleman and treat ladies with respect. Not one single thing wrong with that concept. In fact, it is the only one that is sustainable.
This video gives a hint as to the damage we have done to society. I am so glad that I am not a young man these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiBMzdU9i2I
My statement was that a gentleman never hits a lady. I see nothing controversial about that. No lady ever has to fear a gentleman. So maybe guys should only date ladies, and ostracize women who are not ladies, and women should do the same. Only date gentlemen, and ostracize men who are not gentlemen. And, the message to all kids should be, “Don’t hit unless you are willing to get hit back, because some people WILL hit back.”
This seems to be a common thread: why bother “courting” one woman if she’s just going to get bored and leave?
For one thing, I’ll point out that there seems to be this assumption that only one woman at a time should be focused on. I think that’s not the most effective way to go about it because everyone should have multiple balls in the air at first. So if one woman drops out, no problem, you’ve got a date with another one on Friday.
I’d say that if you’re concerned about the cost, then don’t do big dates in the beginning. Do drinks or coffee if it’s a first meeting for an online date, dinner on a second at a mid-price place like Applebee’s. Billiards or bowling are cheap, fun dates. A picnic in the park is free. Wine tastings are fairly cheap too.
However, I am always mindful of the cost, where other women may not be. I choose the $10 fettuccine Alfredo instead of the $30 lobster Fra Diavolo. I don’t expect guys to go broke treating me, but I do want them to show me a willingness to provide.
Jenn, that’s solid advice when a guy is single and looking for a girlfriend, and when cost is an issue. However, every man has been through the following scenario, often more than once.
A guy meets a girl, goes an a date, and things go great. Long story short, they continue to date, and he is doing nothing wrong. They are spending a lot of time together at each other’s place, on dates, at friend’s homes, texting regularly, calling regularly, etc… Many, or most friends will see them as anew couple. However, that’s not completely true.
There are many ways it happens but a new man comes into her life. Maybe a new guy she meets through work, or through a friend, or at a club when she won’t out on a lady’s night out, or just some guy she bumped into by chance encounter. Flirting ensues, then a date, then more, and at some point, the guy she was spending a lot of time with starts to notice something is off. At first he is told that everything is fine, and excuses are made, but eventually he confronts her and a bomb is dropped on his head. He learns that she met someone. His heart is crushed. She will state that she Sid nothing wrong because there was no agreement on exclusivity. Ever wonder why some guys now ask for that too quickly?
It leaves men jaded and bitter. The truth is that most men who are marriage minded do NOT like juggling more than one woman. They feel safer and more relaxed, more able to be themselves with just one woman.
This whole thing is best understood using the two ladders theory. A woman has two ladders she puts men on. The romantic ladder, and the friend ladder. Easy for a man to move from the romance ladder to the friend ladder but near impossible to move from the friend ladder to the romance ladder.
On the romance ladder are all of the men in her life that she sees as candidates to be her man, with the top rung being her first choice, though not necessarily the one she will end up with. He may end up being moved to the friend ladder by her, or he may remove himself by himself, at which point, she moves the rest of the guys up a rung.
So guy #1 from above is the guy who was recently moved to the top rung. He senses that, he feels it, and so he thinks he may have found his future wife. However a new player enters the game. For one or more reasons, she is intrigued by him and so he is placed on the top rung.
Guy #1 does not know yet that he has been demoted to fall back guy. She isn’t ready to cut him loose because she isn’t sure about the new player yet. But as time goes by she becomes more confident, and devotes more time to him. This where guy #1 starts feeling something is wrong. She isn’t ready to cut him loose so she makes excuses as to why they aren’t spending as much time together. In the end, one of 4 things happens. He finds out the truth. He simply gets to the point that he just knows something is wrong, the new player gets cold feet and hits the trail, usually after bedding her, or she is ready to date the new player exclusively.
MikeTO, Buck25, and Russell,
I am not disagreeing with you guys, I am just saying that everything you talked about, women face the same problems in dating.
We as men aren’t the only ones suffering in the unfairness of the dating game. Like I said, use this site to learn from women not to just blame and lash out at them.
Every woman is not a Megan Fox, every woman doesn’t have the hot guys chasing her, every woman doesn’t feel comfortable giving the man all the power in dating, letting him court her (will he call? Why did he choose to take me here, is it because he isn’t really into me? My parents taught me to never owe anyone, I feel uncomfortable letting a stranger pay for my food; will he think I owe him something in return now?).
Every woman wants a guys she is sexually attracted to, why is it okay for men to want this, to pass up women who would treat them like they are the most precious man on earth, she would do everything to make him happy, but she is just overweight, or is not “as” attractive as the average woman. Because of her looks he chooses not to date her and we think that is okay, but when a woman does the same thing, now it is a sin??? She is shallow, stuck up, only wants to date models, and so her punishment is she will regret it when she turns 40 and all the guys will make her feel like she made you feel but rejecting her for younger women???
The average looking, or below average looking, and the overweight woman get hit on all the time by guys and I am sure some even have full inboxes on dating sites, but what is the point of having hundreds of guys hit on you when you aren’t attracted to any of them? I am not talking about GQ models, just guys who put the work in to take care of their finances, their bodies (yes women don’t like fat guys either), and he knows how to dress and act respectful in public.
Why do some men feel that a woman wanting a man who can at least take care of himself, is a gold digger? Why does wanting someone who she (to steal this ideology from Karmic Equation) can see herself wanting to kiss verses forcing herself to be with someone who she doesn’t want to kiss make a woman shallow?
My whole point is, in some ways dating is unfair for men, in some ways dating is unfair for women, unless you are the top percentage of either gender, you will struggle in dating. So always posting negative comments blaming women doesn’t help anyone. Sure I want the hottest women I can find, but why would she want me? What can I do to improve myself to get that woman?
Jenn also made a great point about dating more than one person at a time, because YES guys! Women date guys who they really like that disappear for another woman, just like men date women who lose interest, the only difference is, most men even if not interested will still stick around long enough to get sex, which gives women the false sense of he really likes me. We men don’t have the monopoly on getting our hopes up about a person we like.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Russell,
I understand what you’re saying but I’ll reiterate, if it’s still early stages (as in the first few months) of a courtship, both parties should be openly dating others. Until the exclusivity talk is broached, you’re both free to do that. Even marriage-minded people (such as myself) should still be open to meeting new people because for one thing, it helps to relax a person when they know there are others who want to date them. For another, especially when you’re looking for someone to marry, meeting as many people as possible is more effective than just focusing on one person at a time. Even just being open to the possibility of meeting others helps. Don’t put all your eggs into one basket!
Yes, it is fair enough.
And when a guy recognizes he’s a 5 in SMV according to women, he should probably date a woman 5. It’s the exact same thing a woman 5 should do when faced with a similar situation.
No one said life was fair. You are just very attuned to how it’s unfair for short, black guys, and very callous about how it’s unfair to older, heavier women.
@Adrian – I’m truly touched by your posts in this thread, my dear fellow. Thank you for understanding and expressing the fact that yes, sensitive and sincere people of Both sexes can find dating disappointing at times.
Men who complain about women being users and women who complain about men being jerks simply need to stop dating users and jerks; it really is that simple. I appreciate you being a male voice of reason on this blog; I have a feeling you’re going to find and win a lovely woman thanks to your positive and thoughtful demeanour. xo
“I understand what you’re saying but I’ll reiterate, if it’s still early stages (as in the first few months) of a courtship, both parties should be openly dating others. Until the exclusivity talk is broached, you’re both free to do that.”
Well Jenn, this sounds great on paper, but for men the experience is totally different. Most men don’t make 6 figures in income. In this country, men are generally expected to “Call, Plan, and PAY.” Dating 2-6 different women isn’t really much of an option for most guys. Dates can and often are quite expensive. After all, what is the guy trying to do here. He is trying to prove that he is invested, so no, cheap dates aren’t an option. I used to peruse another site, the circular dating site…what’s her name? Oh yea, Rory, I think. Anyway, I saw plenty of women there mention that they were worth a good quality date. One blog thread, the women were ranting about all the cheap dates, and I specifically remember one woman ranting that some guy she had high hopes for chose to ask her to meet him at Starbucks for a first date. She stated that she was at a minimum, worth a good meal in a nice restaurant.
So men know this. We’ve had feedback that let us know we were cheap, if we ever did that. Plus, we also know that you women do circular date when not in a relationship. In truth, that’s all circular dating really is. Dating as if you aren’t in a committed relationship. Thus we know it’s a competition. This is stressful, not fun for the man. You are trying to build a connection with a woman, having to try to impress her, and you know that the truth is, the odds are actually against you. See, it is not the same, no matter what Adrian says. It’s not the same. Yes, women have the possibility that the best of those 6 guys may not want to actually marry her, but that doesn’t change the fact that she is the one who gets to sit back, go on paid for dates with no worries about money. She then gets to pick who is the winner among the guys she is dating. The guys are competing, and she is the judge. Rarely is this situation reversed. Oh sure, that top 10 percent of guys might find this the case, but for the other 90%, not so much.
i would just keep that in mind Jenn. Dating is not fun for men. Dating is fun for women because they get a free night out, having fun on somebody else’s dime. We can enjoy ourselves on a date, but dating itself is not fun…not when we know that she has other irons in the fire. Women of course know this so not one time has any woman ever made it clear that she was seeing other guys. You are just supposed to assume this I guess. But every woman has gone out of her way to leave a subtle impression that there is nobody else. She has probably learned early on that men’s demeanors change if she makes it clear that she is dating other guys. He is going to pull back, and guard his heart. So for marriage minded men, the fun really only begins with exclusivity. Only the PUA’s love the dating.
I have yet to meet an older man who has been married for decades, who doesn’t say, “I knew she was the one the moment I laid eyes on her.” That isn’t really true. What it means is that for most men, if they like what they see, they want to get to know you, learn how it feels to be with you. Most men know pretty quickly whether they both like the way you look, and like they way they feel when they are around you, and thus know very quickly whether you are somebody they want to be exclusive with. At that point, they would love to be exclusive, move in together, etc.. to see if this is something that can last. This is something most young men struggle with if they are a one woman kind of guy, because in effect, they want to get to the exclusivity very quickly, which ALWAYS wrecks things between him and the girl, because after all, she is sitting back enjoying dates with several guys, and is in no hurry to make a choice. It’s like men and women are not in sync.
It is my theory that marriage minded men want to get to the exclusivity pretty quickly, while the woman wants to hold off. But then, once they get to the point that she does want to be exclusive, she is pretty certain she wants marriage with the guy. He knows he wants exclusivity, but lags behind her on wanting to tie the knot. So now he is the one that wants to slow down, while she writes into blogs wondering why he isn’t popping the question yet.
I would also say that for women, things would be a lot better if they would go back to being the gatekeepers of sex. In fact, I think it would help everyone. Men would have to get more serious about finding the right woman, and would not waste time on a woman that they are not interested in for a LTR. This would help women in that the men left pursuing her, would be much more likely to be serious about her. It does little good to blame the PUAs for using women for sex when women are creating the playing field for them to play ball on. PUAs would disappear overnight if women went back to being the gatekeepers of sex. I truly believe this is the number one thing making it much harder for people to find the right person. I also think this is much more responsible for the increased age of people when they marry. It’s just harder to find the person who is actually interested in you long term. At a minimum, this is the biggest factor.
I know that it is impossible to put the genie back in the bottle, but I think smart women would simply stop putting out so easily once it is time to get serious. Yeah sure, have fun in college, and shortly after, but around 24 to 25, that should stop and she should start looking seriously for the right man, and if all women started doing that, men would have to get serious, and stop living the Playboy life. They say that men want sex and women want marriage. Well, you can’t blame men for not being in any hurry to get married when he is getting all the sex he wants without having to get married.
Hello dear @Rusty (or, as you now call yourself, Russell): I’ll keep this short, since it’s tiresome to read 7-paragraph bloviations.
I understand that some women will think poorly of a man if he doesn’t spend a lot of money while dating. So here’s an idea: stop dating those women! If you focused on going on creative-but-inexpensive dates, the women who demand costly experiences will excuse themselves from your dating pool and you’ll have a better chance of finding someone whose values are more closely aligned with your own. You would then be able to stop ranting on and on and on and on about the mercenary, slutty Western women who are always looking to “trade up” because you would be happily dating women who aren’t like that. And trust me: we’d all be thrilled if that were to happen.
What, and miss out on the women who bloviate about how all men over 40 are worthless, fat, bald, bad teeth, etc…?
Miss out on the chance to laugh when women here use the word Patriarchy while 77.9 % of suicides are men, 6 out of 7 homeless are men, women earn 140 degrees for every degree men earn, women get custody of the children regardless of who is the “better” parent, women don’t have to register for the draft, two college kids cna get drunk at a party then have consensual sex, but he can be charged with rape because she could not consent due her drinking alcohol, etc… Yeah the Patriarchy is doing wonders for men these days. Too funny and yet not a day goes by when I see that word used by a woman on this blog. Let me use the word Feminazi and Evan will call me out on it. Miss out on those laughs? Nay nay!
While YOU are bloviating, take note of your own, such as how you and everybody else here, excluding some men, have a double standard. See, there are tons of posts by women venting about how horrible men are, or men do this and men do that. Nobody says anything about it, save for me and a few men. But oh lord, let me of the other handful of men do the same, let us talk about negative experiences with women, or call out things that we see women do, and we are instantly called out, stating that, “Well men do that too, or things aren’t gravy for us women either.” Yes, it is a double standard, but excuse me if I’m not shocked by being on the negative side of a double standard. By this point, we are used to it, though also tired of it.
You are trying to build a connection with a woman, having to try to impress her, and you know that the truth is, the odds are actually against you. See, it is not the same, no matter what Adrian says. It’s not the same. Yes, women have the possibility that the best of those 6 guys may not want to actually marry her, but that doesn’t change the fact that she is the one who gets to sit back, go on paid for dates with no worries about money. She then gets to pick who is the winner among the guys she is dating. The guys are competing, and she is the judge. Rarely is this situation reversed. Oh sure, that top 10 percent of guys might find this the case, but for the other 90%, not so much.
i would just keep that in mind Jenn. Dating is not fun for men. Dating is fun for women because they get a free night out, having fun on somebody else’s dime. We can enjoy ourselves on a date, but dating itself is not fun…not when we know that she has other irons in the fire. Women of course know this so not one time has any woman ever made it clear that she was seeing other guys. You are just supposed to assume this I guess. But every woman has gone out of her way to leave a subtle impression that there is nobody else. She has probably learned early on that men’s demeanors change if she makes it clear that she is dating other guys. He is going to pull back, and guard his heart. So for marriage minded men, the fun really only begins with exclusivity. Only the PUA’s love the dating.
Russell,
Dating isn’t that much fun for women either. You think it’s fun for me, getting emails from lame idiots who constantly shoot off mass emails and dumb one-liners to every halfway decent-looking woman online? I’ve gotten to a point that when I see new emails in my inbox, I send up a quick prayer that that person won’t be lame, just because I’m so used to not getting good, sincerely interested replies from well-matched individuals. Then, when one of them actually manages to ask me on a real date (most don’t), I inevitably get my hopes up while sincerely trying not to pair our names together or imagine my wedding dress. More often than not, I spend an hour having polite conversation with someone whom I usually know immediately that I’m not even remotely attracted to, before going home completely dejected because of yet another failed attempt. And as for me not having to care about money? I make peanuts at my job compared to even the most low-income guys. Very few of the men I’ve dated have made so little, yet they still sometimes seem to expect me to split the bill, which is about the most unromantic thing a guy can do.
Some advice: if you’re going to complain about the cost of dating, then either do what you need to do to get a better income, or trim your existing expenses until you can afford to take out several women each week. It really shouldn’t cost you more than $100-200 to take out 3 women or more. Add to that the fact that since most women still want a man to do the asking and the paying, you have more control than you might think. You do the asking, which means you don’t have to wait, you can just go for it. You pick the place and the activity that best suits your budget. Do some research on places that always run good happy hour specials. Get creative! It’s not forever, just for now. Once you’re exclusive with someone you can scale back a bit, or use groupons or Living Social deals.
And remember, no matter how much time and money you’re spending on dates, it likely pales in comparison to the time, money and effort that women have to expend on our appearance just to be asked out in the first place.
“While YOU are bloviating…”
Dear @Rusty. Please calculate the length of your average post on this website. Then calculate the length of my average post. One, and only one, of us bloviates here.
Rusty/Russell — now that you’ve been outed, you may as well go back to being Rusty.
“What you have to understand also, is that just like there are men who will string you along for sex, there are women who will string men along for dates. Who wouldn’t love going out and having a good time when you don’t have to pay? Yes, before anyone says it, I know that not all women do that, just like all men don’t string women along just for sex.”
For men, this is an easy problem to solve: Don’t pay for extravagant dates. Go on budget-conscious dates that both you and your date will enjoy.
If you’re only dating “ladies” who require that you spend extravagantly on them, then may you should consider dating less entitled “ladies”.
The dating game is a game of chance. It’s not a meritocracy. You put money in, hoping you hit the jackpot, but if you gamble EXPECTING to hit the jackpot, yeah, you’re going to be mightily disappointed.
In the dating game, men gamble with money, women gamble with their bodies. Men spend money on dates with a woman he hopes to sleep with; women sleep with a man whom she hopes to have a relationship with. The woman walks away after date 3; the man walks away after sex.
Who loses more? Money can be re-earned. How does one re-earn the sex given? That gift is given and gone. You can’t re-earn it.
Please stop harping about how much money it costs to date.
Date the right kinds of women, in the right way, and you’ll get sex and/or a relationship, and it won’t cost you a more money than you can re-earn.
A woman can date the right guy, behave like a lady, pay her share of the date, but she still won’t be guaranteed a committed relationship. Even if she sleeps with him.
Please, tell me again, how much more it costs men to date (to get sex, because that is often their primary goal) than it is for a woman to date (to get a relationship, which is often HER primary goal)?
The dating game IS fair if you look at this reality:
– Women reject men BEFORE sex.
– Men reject women AFTER sex.
Men lose dollars, which can be re-earned, if he chooses the wrong woman to date.
Women lose self-esteem if she chooses the wrong man to date.
Yes, please tell me again of a man’s higher risk in dating than a woman’s.
“Rusty/Russell — now that you’ve been outed, you may as well go back to being Rusty.”
Outed? I wasn’t exactly hiding. Since Rusty is the nickname for Russell (I respond to Russell (full name) Rusty (nickname) and Russ (shortened full name)), and the Ohio State avatars should have made it very clear. It’s not like I was still using the Ohio State avatar but the name Eddie, or Rick, or Matt.
Anyone with their brain turned on should have figured it out the first time they saw it. Rusty is the most common nickname for Russell.
what exactly does “step to me like a man” mean????
I love this video! I wish I had seen it years ago while dating a very frugal multi-millionaire. During my 3 1/2 year relationship with him, I paid for my own movie ticket on Valentine’s Day! I had to split dinner meals with him! I did not go anywhere with him unless it was free! Evan is right. A man should make an “EFFORT” and show that he is “INVESTED” in the relationship. Thank you Evan! Thank you for your words of wisdom. I will repeat over and over in my head, “CALL”, “PLAN”, “PAY”.
Believe it or not many rich people are very cheap that’s how they become rich.
Yes, I completely agree with you. Still, finances are the number one marriage break-up reason. It’s important to find someone who can balance between savings money and spending money.
Ugh. It is one thing to be a saver (which I generally am) and financially intelligent, but someone like the man Nora dated is showing his lack of generosity and also self centered ness.
Nora, I don’t think the topic at hand has to do with who pays for what within a relationship. That is something that each couple has to decide on their own, and the man – in this day and age – should not be automatically responsible for paying. The topic here is dealing with who should pay on the first few dates.
Chance, The problem with that is a lot of women will assume a lack of interest if a man doesn’t pay on the first few dates. It takes time to get to know someone. Most people don’t lay out their philosophies on life, dating, marriage, etc. on or before date one. It usually takes months to get to know someone’s thoughts on those things. So it leaves a whole lot of guesswork, which is frequently wrong. If I were a man, and I was really interested in a woman, I wouldn’t have a problem paying for the first few dates to find out if she is someone I want to continue to get to know better. If she insists on paying her own way, that’s fine too. Obviously, she feels better about dating that way for her own personal reasons. Not wanting to feel like she owes you anything or maybe it’s part of her feeling independent and in control. It can also be because she’s not super attracted to you initially, and doesn’t feel right about allowing you to pay when she knows it probably won’t lead to another date. So the man is left with guesswork too. I will just say for me, personally, if I go out with someone on the first few dates, and he doesn’t pay, it makes me feel he isn’t very interested. That, in turn, puts a damper on my interest. When you’re really excited about a guy, and he takes you out and treats you like a lady, it makes you feel special. It makes you feel valued and desired. Why wouldn’t you want the woman you’re interested in to feel that way?
KK, I think there’s a misunderstanding. I was pointing out to Nora that this topic was not about who pays over the long-term (which is what she was talking about), but rather the man should pay for the first few dates. Evan only advocates this for during the courtship phase. He does not advocate that it is the man’s job to always pay in perpetuity.
“the problem with that is a lot of women will assume a lack of interest if a man does’t pay on the first few dates”.
Not true. Maybe you would assume a lack of interest if a man didn’t pay, but the first few dates are for both parties to determine if there is a connection worth pursuing. It’s what occurs on the date that determines if a man is interested, not how much money he shells out.
Now, if he begins to realize that he likes you a lot, and wants to up the ante by taking you out on a romantic date, then paying comes into question.
What is wrong with meeting a man at a concert in the park, festival, or an event in the city where you pay your own way for the first few dates? If you have a wonderful time with this man each time, and he demonstrates interest by consistently calling you and making time to see you, what’s the issue?
Maybe this differs among groups of varying ages, or maybe i’m fairly noncommittal in the beginning of any relationship, but i don’t understand this “if he doesn’t pay, I assume he isn’t interested” mentality.
Hah, does this video contradict the previous blog about “Too Many Men Hitting on Women who are not interested?” – does that mean that Men should become more passive or should men remain aggressive?
Not unless you are too simple to understand the differences between courtship, chivalry and “creepy stalker.”
One of the definitions of chivalry from The Merriam Webster dictionary: “an honorable and polite way of behaving especially toward women.” Since it was applied to Knights in the middle ages, it’s always applied to men.
That’s a good and general definition and I think it’s important to note that there is also a modern women’s code of chivalry- an honorable and polite way of behaving toward men. No, it’s not expecting women to open doors, pay, call, initiate (initially), etc… It’s taking the feminine role and doing it well. It’s being receptive, ladylike, appreciative, etc- all the things Evan tells women to do in order to make the man feel good about his role in the relationship.
So,,,, chivalry (proper behavior) should be exhibited by both parties in the relationship and should one party decide that the relationship isn’t right for them, they walk. Without chivalry on both sides, the relationship won’t (shouldn’t) even start. The relationship isn’t about chivalry. It’s about all the things that make a relationship.
O –
As a woman, I am not under any “obligation” other than to be a decent human being. Which I endeavor to be, because it matters to me, not because of any perceived benefit I might get from it. I see many people in my life (of both genders) making this effort.
ScottH’s words were appropriate and appreciated. Why shouldn’t we expect, as he says, respect and proper behavior, from both genders?
I wouldn’t bother with a person, of either gender, that failed to do so.
Obsidian 6.1, what do you mean that the right guy simply has to show up, and the ladies will do the rest? Not this lady. As much as I was attracted to the guy who became my husband, if he hadn’t paid for our dates, I would have wondered what was wrong with him, or whether he was romantically interested in me at all. It would have bothered me. And I was no gold-digger. I had pretty much become reconciled to the possibility of living on my own forever, and though I wasn’t making great money I could afford my little studio apartment.
Life involves the acceptance of risk. If you think you were doing “everything right,” and she falls for someone else, that is life. No one gets a guarantee. It happens to women too, who are gobsmacked when THEY think they did everything right and a guy just disappears on her. And we don’t sit back, either. We accept a lot of uncertainty and anxiety in the early stages, when we really like a guy and don’t yet know how things will play out.
“Simply put, for the right guy, he doesn’t have to “court” – all he needs do is show up, and the ladies will do the rest. “Courting” is for the lesser guys in the round, who may be able to convince a gal to go to bed with him, etc.”
Exactly. The way I think of it is, why should I pay for what she’s given to other guys for free?
Okay, McLovin. How is your “don’t call/plan/pay” philosophy serving you? Are you in a great relationship with a quality woman who appreciates you? If not, it’s entirely possible that the biggest problem isn’t courting but either you or your choice of women.
Put another way:
Courting, in and of itself, will not convince a woman to give you a chance if she’s not interested in you. That’s what you seem to think we’re saying. We’re not. On the other hand, courting is behavior demonstrating that you value a woman and take her seriously as a relationship candidate. Any woman who sticks around for the passive guy who expects women to call/plan/pay is either very masculine or has very low self esteem…to think that this is the best treatment she can expect from men.
Point is that it’s a self fulfilling prophesy. You are so bitter that some guys can get laid without effort that you actually sabotage your ability to get a great girl by refusing to be a great partner yourself.
Snark alert…
Maybe for all his faults, McLovin doesn’t believe in false advertising.
Couldn’t resist saying that.
On another note , I am bummed that TDR is not offered in my city. I think it looks like a great way to sift through the excess and get the most out of Match.com
I’m all for men asking and planning dates but I don’t think effort in this area is an indication of a good provider. I think you are much better off finding someone who is responsible, is gainfully employed, has a supportive family, and socializes with the same type of people. Testoserone helps men get over fears of rejection but the hormone doesn’t help men make financial choices in the modern world. Chivalry is great but not if the man has poor impluse control.
Obsidian my friend, I was debating if I would respond to you, but I have upon reflection decided against it.
Because you seem too bitter and angry, so no matter what I say, you won’t actually consider it as I would consider your side of the argument.
But I will leave you with a great quote from David De’Angelo: “Life isn’t fair… and that’s GREAT!”
I love that quote because it means that everything that has happened to you isn’t cosemicly ordained, which means that if you are having a crumy life or a hard time in dating, you can do something about it, YOU have that POWER! You are NOT destined to be where you are in life.
You might be a 5… if you improve yourself as best as you possible can, you still will not be able to get a 9 but you could possibly get a 6 or even maybe a 7. Eat the same meal everyday and even your favorite dish will not be as appetizing to your eyes, looks and beauty are the same way. You can get the 9 but after being with her everyday for a few years, the awe of her beauty wears off.
That is way I chose Evan instead of other dating coaches who focus on just men, because Evan is right, focus on the person who may only be a 6 in looks but is a 10 in compatibility. A woman who “wants to” makes you feel happy everyday, a woman who sees your flaws and still thinks you are special and she treats you as if you are special.
Obsidian, I recently turned 30 a few months ago and 3 months ago I started grad-school. I am surrounded everyday by 18 year olds who could put any celebrity you see on tv to shame. I understand why it is so tempting to choose the 18 year old with her smooth skin, tight firm body, and flat stomach over the 30 and 40 year old woman who has let herself go physically. But spend 5 minutes talking to one of these girls (I look much younger, so everyone thinks I am still 18) and you will gladly trade her looks and body for the older woman.
Unless you are only after sex, then a woman who knows how to put herself first in a none selfish way, will also know how to make a man happy. Trust me, you would be happier with a woman who knows how to make you happy then with a women who is just Hot.
Lastly, I was the shy book worm all through high school and undergrade in college, I was constantly passed over for the hot out going guy. Now years later, the same women who over looked me, have gained weight (I go to the gym), they are working in low level jobs (I make over 6 figures a year), and they have children and the stress associated with being single mothers (I don’t have children and for what it’s worth, my picture got an average 8.8 rating from over 150 votes on hot or not), they stress has aged their faces and the birth has given them stretch marks.
Who do you think is better off? Neither of us! I am not better than them, and I learned that from this website, by listening to the feelings of the female commentors and especially Evan. I was like you on the path to becoming bitter and only trying to date the Hottest women because now I could and it was my way of getting back at the type of women who turned me down. But it was wrong for me to think I am better or to take joy in the suffering of the dating lives of the type of women who once rejected me, they weren’t evil for not being attracted to me.
Obsidian – To a man, Adrian sounds so much healthier than you. Your diatribes are just your truth, not the truth – and they’re just markers of your pain.
Furthermore, regarding the cognitive dissonance of your last paragraph:
There is nothing dispassionate about your approach.
You take a ton of time writing screeds like this all over the internet.
You talk tough like you’re happy – “I’m fucking an 18 year old – I’m a winner.” Sorry, man. You’re not a winner over me and my 46-year-old wife any more than Charlie Sheen is a winner for having a harem of hookers. You know why? You’re not happy. Every word you type is seething with anger. Happy people don’t spend time trying to fight with the world.
You take plenty of joy in starting arguments that accomplish nothing. I sometimes take the time to respond to you, as did Adrian. And you completely fail to acknowledge the validity of his or my words.
Which means one of three things:
1. You’re stupid. I don’t believe this for a half a second.
2. You’re blind. You seem to think that you and your red pill have a monopoly on truth and that people who have other points of view aren’t just different but ‘wrong.’ We’re not wrong, O. Everything I write is backed up by reason, science, experience, etc. That doesn’t deny your experience – I acknowledge your truth. You just never acknowledge mine. Which means that you are either so blind as to think that your worldview is the only valid one – sort of a Tea Partyesque bent, OR…
3. You’re a bad faith arguer. You understand what I’m talking about, but to admit it would be to admit a strength of mine or a weakness of yours. To me, this makes you sound wise, human and reasonable. Bright, conscientious people communicate that way – acknowledging the truth of the other side and offering an alternate point of view that fleshes the world out into three dimensions. In other words, here in reality, you’re right (men are often dismissed by women), radical feminists are right (many men have an unhealthy patriarchal worldview), and moderates like me are right as well. The difference is what we’re focusing on. You’re focusing on being “right” above all and making people submit to your worldview. I’m focused on acknowledging the very real grievances of both men and women and helping people get into happy relationships.
If you’re a men’s rights activist, you may think it’s your duty to stir the pot, get attention, shout down dissenters, troll people who are sensitive to women’s needs. That’s fine. But don’t expect for anybody to take you too seriously – no more than anyone takes one-sided extremists too seriously of any ilk.
You think by dismissing Adrian line by line, you’re scoring points, but you’re not. The only people you’re scoring points with are people who already agree with you. Everybody else just looks at you as an angry bull in the china shop. You may think you’re winning the battle, but by refusing to see other people’s points of view, you’re doing the worst thing of all for your cause – inviting people to dismiss you out of hand.
Sorry, man. As you’d say: the truth hurts.
You make the fallacy of anybody thinking that they’re a 5.
5 men want to date 8 women.
5 women want to date 8 men.
I call it the Matchmakers Dilemma. Everyone overestimates him/herself and wonders why dating is so hard. You acknowledge that women overlook men. You seem incredibly tone-deaf about acknowledging that men do the exact same thing. Yet you say it in every post: “she’s gotta make my dick hard!”
Got it.
For once, just acknowledge what I said and Adrian said: it’s a jungle out there. It’s unfair. Men get overlooked because of height, money, education. Women get overlooked because of weight and age. That’s the way the world works. It’s astounding to me how you’re only attuned to your side and dismissive of everyone else’s plight. But hey, that’s your business. In all seriousness, take care of yourself. And please don’t respond with something snarky, like “I always do.” It’s tiring to be sincere and kind to someone who smacks you every time you try.
Obsidian, Evan is right. You’re showing everyone who you are, and proving his points perfectly.
The part that gets me is all a lot of woman would have to do to raise themselves high above her sister’s on the attractiveness scale is lose 20lbs., but they won’t do it because they don’t have to to get dates.
My circle is full of women 20-40lbs over their ideal weight who could have their pick of Men or be on the cover of Vogue if they just hit the Gym and cut back on the wine… Men on the other hand have to raise themselves on every level, physically, mentally and financially just to bump themselves up to a shot at dating a 5 🙂
“You seem incredibly tone-deaf about acknowledging that men do the exact same thing. Yet you say it in every post: “she’s gotta make my dick hard!””
Evan, you don’t think the OKCupid stats proved that while this is somewhat true, the problem is not equal. The men rated the women on a pretty healthy bell curve, while the women rated men on a much more critical scale, which rated 80% of men as below average. If they had a realistic view of their own SMV, about 50 to 60% of men would have been 3 star or above. That whole thing caused OKC to change from a 5 star to a 1 star rating system. You like or you don’t like. So I suspect that only 20% of the men will get a like.
And wouldn’t this logically fit when you consider that men are much less picky when it comes to having sex, while women tend to be much pickier in who they will sleep with. Thus, after all the fun sleeping with men above their SMV, it would skew their belief as to what their real SMV is, while men would tend overall to be more realistic, though not completely realistic, based on the fact that they don’t have a ton of experience having sex with women over their SMV.
I have to agree with much of what Obsidian has experienced. Many of these woman who might be considered a 5 won’t date a male 5 counterpart or even a 7. My local co-ed gym is full of men 35-60 who while are not model handsome are in good shape, dress well and have good jobs. Some of these guys have taken themselves from a 4 to a 7 through great effort on their part and are perfectly willing to date a 5, but the 5 won’t give them the time of day…
Obsidian,
Let me try to answer that. As I read it, you’re saying that unless you get, (through your efforts at chivalry, self improvement, etc.), the kind of woman (especially appearance-wise) you have in mind, it’s just not worth the effort, at least, not to you. You know, when I got back into the single scene three years ago, I felt the same way. Now, I wasn’t trying to date what you’d call a 9 or 10, by any means (I was 64, so a bit old for that), I wasn’t trying to date women half my age, either; I was trying to find a reasonably attractive women somewhere in her fifties, to early sixties. Now, in the time I was last single, that might have been a realistic goal. It isn’t now; even in that age group, there are few women interested in a man 7-12 years older then themselves: sample email response from a woman of 57 (attractive, maybe a 7 for her age group), “WAAAAY TOO G***DAMN OLD!!!!!!!”. Disappointing? Sure. Now, it hasn’t all been like that; since that time, I’ve met some very nice women; none that turned out to be a real romantic connection for me, but interesting, nonetheless. From your perspective, I suppose any effort I put into those dates was a waste of time; I mean, I didn’t get a long term girlfriend, I didn’t get laid, except in one three month relationship that ultimately failed. So what did I get? A couple of lasting friendships, quite a few very interesting conversations over drinks, or dinner, some fun evenings dancing, some equally fun day outings ; even learned to ride a horse, of all things. In short, I didn’t get what I was hoping for, but I still had fun, that I wouldn’t have had, sitting around, brooding over the frustration of not getting what I wanted, or trying to persuade women who weren’t attracted to me, that they should be, somehow.
I’ve learned a lot; that’s the point I was trying to share, even if I didn’t express it all that well. Yes, it’s hard to empathize with women, when you feel like you have to put on a show for them, while they sit there and judge you; but you know, they have their own insecurities, fears and doubts in dating to deal with too. They have to wonder if we’re who we say we are, what our real intentions are, and yes, they can feel like we’re judging them, too. If some of them have a heart of polished brass, a lot more of them can get hurt, and often do. I don’t claim to understand them; how they think, how they act; but I can read their stories here; and feel the bitterness, frustration, disappointment and confusion; they may say it differently; for all I know, they feel it differently, but I don’t think it feels better or worse to them than it does to us; I don’t think they’re adversaries anymore, just fellow travelers on a road that few find easy. So I’m willing to make a little effort, show a little chivalry, and kindness; when I was growing up it was expected, and I guess I never unlearned it, right or wrong. Like I said, it’s a gift that costs me little, and if it helps put a woman I really don’t know all that well yet a little more at ease, then it’s worth it to me. Then again, I’m not expecting anything (other than common politeness) back, and I almost always get that. You know, when I’m not trying to get anything from a woman except to just have a pleasant time together, dating really doesn’t feel like a major effort at all; if something more comes of it, that’s a bonus; if not, what exactly, have I lost?
Buck25 #10.2, maybe it’s a generational thing, but I am 61 and I loved what you had to say there. I do hope you have found/will find a good woman you can be happy with; she’ll be a lucky woman. You seem to have a healthy take on dating and relationships. Anyway, you made my day better, so thank you.
Obsidian,
I’m trying to figure out what exactly you’re trying to accomplish. You’ve made it clear that the most important quality to you in women is good looks yet you seem perplexed that you can’t attract a quality woman. I’m sure there are lots of women who exist that even you might think are the total package, but for some reason you aren’t able to attract them so you want to focus on the bad qualities and unattractiveness of the women who you presume would be interested in you. It seems like you’re gung ho for a battle of the sexes. Truth is, there are lots of wonderful people in this world; men and women. There are crappy people in this world; men and women. If you want a high quality woman, become a high quality man. Most people do not want to get involved with someone of the opposite sex if they hate their gender, are negative, and argumentative.
You said, ” I think a number – certainly not all or even most, but enough to be noticeable – have decided that it’s better to go it alone, than to pair off with someone who will, by definition, offer a lesser standard of living.”
If that’s your solution…. Good luck! No one is begging you to stay in the game.
Congrats, man. You once again hijacked a thread and made it all about you. All in the name of “debate” where everyone writes long diatribes and yet no minds are changed.
Someone asked me today if I enjoy this. I thought about it for a second. I think I find it “interesting,” but I don’t enjoy it. It’s a fruitless waste of time, as we’ve established long ago. You can continue to write on my blog all you want – I won’t censor you as long as you don’t insult me or my reader directly. I just don’t really see the point.
Good night.
Ronin,
And if “they don’t have to do it to get dates”, who loses? I’m beginning to think, we’ve gotten to a point, as men, where we believe that “we have to do it to get dates” is about the only reason to do anything. Now, it might be a good motivator; I mean, most of us do put a pretty high priority on finding “love, or something like it”; but do we really have to make achieving that objective the end-all, be-all of our lives? Is that the only reason to stay in shape, expand our horizons, or even try to gain little more insight into who we are?
You know, after my divorce, I not only had the usual emotional garbage to sort out; beyond that, I had gotten overweight, stressed out, pretty complacent, and my life was pretty much in a rut. I knew, (and at the time I had no idea just how tough the dating environment can be these days) that I had to make some changes. I did; I worked on myself, engaged in a lot more reflecting than I had in years…hell, in decades. I lost the weight, shaped up, got out and started trying new things, looked at some of my weak points and tried to improve them. Did that get me a lot of more and better women wanting to date me? I’m sure it got me some, but it was’t like there was no room on my social calendar. I felt like you do, for a while; women didn’t seem to feel so much pressure to exert that kind of effort; they must have been getting a ton of attention without it, I thought (judging by response to my emails). It didn’t strike me as very fair; and it felt even worse, when I first read this blog, and promptly got a metaphorical earful of what a lot of fifty-something, even sixty-something, women thought of any and all men my age ( yes, all the usual worst stereotypes of men 65+). It Hurt; here I was, being lumped in with every man my age who hadn’t put in 1% of the effort I had, automatically though of as being every negative thing I had worked not to be; If that’s how women were going to perceive me; what was all the work for? Sure didn’t pay off with them!
Then I noticed something; I felt better: a LOT better; I had more energy; my clothes fit like they should. My outlook and mood were better, and if my life wasn’t perfect, it was a lot more interesting. No, I still didn’t have women clamoring to meet me, but I was having fun. So what did I get, for that work at self-improvement? From women, not much; the same women that wouldn’t even look at my online profile because of my age, height, or whatever… STILL won’t. Doesn’t matter; to them it was a wasted effort; wasn’t and isn’t even worth noticing. To me, all it was is the best gift I ever gave myself! Think I should just undo it? I mean, after all, it didn’t “work”.
Self Improvement should be done for the “Self” and not because it gives you an advantage for dating. My point is that a man can make many great improvements in his health, mentally and physically at 45, but the pickings are slim if he’s looking for his female equvilient within his own age range.
This is what’s so sad about the whole thing. The men who are on the other side of divorce who have done all the hard work are not going to settle for women who haven’t, and the women who dream of such men expect them to fall out of the sky with no effort on their own part.
Ronin,
Exactly! For that matter, a man in good health, (or capable of regaining it) can make considerable improvement in himself at any age; you’re also right that the effort may not bring him great rewards from the women he’s attempting to date. It’s also fair to say that the man who has done that, has ZERO incentive to settle for a woman who refuses to make the same effort.
On the other hand, the rare woman who DOES make the effort makes an impression on me. I’m actually not dating anymore, because I’m in an exclusive relationship with a woman who a few years back was so obese it was quite literally killing her. The difference is, that unlike the whiners, excuse makers and the fat acceptance crowd here, she sucked it up and summoned up the courage to DO something about it. She had to lose weight before she could even have weight loss surgery; she battled until she did it. Result-five years, and well over half her body weight later, she’s more than met her goals, surpassed anything her doctors expected, she’s kept the weight off…and she did it all while going through the end of an abusive marriage and a difficult divorce! She had every excuse in the world to give up and quit on herself, but she never did. She’s transformed herself from “the little fat girl that nobody wanted” to a healthy, beautiful, curvy, very attractive woman, with a smile and personality that lights up a room, and she’s done it with an inner strength like none I’ve ever seen before. There’s a lot I love about her, but her sheer, awe-inspiring courage and determination won my heart.
I’m a big supporter of anyone, male or female who works hard to make positive changes in their lives. There is no guarantee this will help find the perfect person for you, but you will be confident enough to know the type of people you want in your life.
Sadly in this generation of whiners everyone considers themselves a victim of circumstance, all looking for a magic pill or someone else to fix their lives…It’s all pretty simple, quit making excuses, work on being the best you can be, pay it forward and lead by example.
In response to Russell’s comment:
“Well Jenn, this sounds great on paper, but for men the experience is totally different. Most men don’t make 6 figures in income. In this country, men are generally expected to “Call, Plan, and PAY.” Dating 2-6 different women isn’t really much of an option for most guys. Dates can and often are quite expensive. After all, what is the guy trying to do here. He is trying to prove that he is invested, so no, cheap dates aren’t an option.”
If a woman you are interested in declines a date with a man because he invited her on a cheap date, I would guess that the cheap date wasn’t the issue; she simply wasn’t that into him. Sometimes women make excuses for not dating a guy, but they know the real reason for that. If a woman truly declines a date because it is cheap, she isn’t worth a man’s time anyway. A thoughtful, cheap date is much more in my eyes than having an expensive dinner date.
“One blog thread, the women were ranting about all the cheap dates, and I specifically remember one woman ranting that some guy she had high hopes for chose to ask her to meet him at Starbucks for a first date. She stated that she was at a minimum, worth a good meal in a nice restaurant.”
Trust me, if this woman was really into this guy, she would take the starbucks date, especially if they are in the early stages of getting to know one another.
Agreed, Noemi.
What women want more than anything else, when she’s into a guy is TIME. She wants to spend a lot of time with him. Quality time is a common love language for most women. Right up there with words of affirmation.
So Russell, while it stings to be rejected, making it about money is wrong. Hot women (aka women with lots of options) will reject for whatever reason meets her fancy.
So if you’re always feeling like there’s a lot of competition for your dates, which, in essence, is your admitting you’re dating women way out of your league, then lower the league. Start dating women whom you’re neutral about (not ga-ga, not eww-yuck about). Most men are just a culpable as women in misjudging whom they should date. Both want to date someone who “takes their breath away”. Wrong standard. They should date people who (1) they’re ambivalent about, attraction wise and (2) continue to date them until they naturally get off the fence, (“nah, I can’t see him as more than a friend” or “wow! he’s really a great guy!”)
I suggest you try dating that way. Worse comes to worst, you’ll make a new friend. Or you could get lucky and find the woman of your dreams.
But unless YOU’re an 8 or higher, odds are whomever you end up with will not be higher than a 7. And 7’s don’t take peoples breaths away…until after you get to know them.
“So if you’re always feeling like there’s a lot of competition for your dates, which, in essence, is your admitting you’re dating women way out of your league, then lower the league. Start dating women whom you’re neutral about (not ga-ga, not eww-yuck about).”
That’s completely off base. Not the least bit true, neither about me or in theory. If a man is decent looking, and he is dating peers, she is going to have options. Like it or not, there is a big difference between being the person who pays, and the person who only has to say thank you. My point was not that I get rejected a lot. I don’t. I’ve even have very young women in their early to late 20s want to get married. One who is 24, and very cute, keeps messaging me on facebook, every single day. She is sweet and I like her as a friend, but I’m not into that. I realize that it would likely be a lot of fun for a while, but it would also likely not last because of the different places we are in life. Honestly, I would be worried that as Father Time starts winning the battle, she would leave for a younger guy. Not like there isn’t an epidemic of that these days. I would rather have somebody closer to my age that will still be with me since we would both be old at that point. I think 10 to 12 years younger would be my limit.
The point was that many men like to move fairly quickly to a committed relationship IF…IF…he is marriage minded. Once in a committed relationship, he now feels the security he needs to slow down and explore he relationship. No guy who is marriage minded is going to feel safe with a woman who is dating other men. If you don’t feel safe, you don’t feel comfortable investing in her.
I am not rich. Most men aren’t. Many of us also pay child support out of what we make. Thus for us, a date is an investment. It can get very expensive trying to date multiple women, so most men I have known don’t really enjoy dating multiple women at the same time. What you have to understand also, is that just like there are men who will string you along for sex, there are women who will string men along for dates. Who wouldn’t love going out and having a good time when you don’t have to pay? Yes, before anyone says it, I know that not all women do that, just like all men don’t string women along just for sex.
You’re perfectly right, Noemi! Men, as they gather more and more experience, should learn that there’s no point in courting or giving attention to a woman who does not clearly reciprocate a romantic attraction or interest. Therefore, I believe that chivalry and courting should be used by a man only when he already is pretty certain that the woman is into him…
Wrong, Theo.
Chivalry should be practiced at all times on women, even when you’re not dating them or into them. Good men are chivalrous.
If you equate “courting” to “paying for dates” then you’re only focusing on one small aspect of “courting”. Courting is calling. Courting is planning. Courting is showing a woman you like her. Courting is paying for dates.
If a woman likes you the same way, she’ll like whether you take her out for ice cream or to a 5-star restaurant or for a walk on the beach.
So men SHOULD court women he likes.
He should, however, be judicious in how much he spends on those dates. Spending “a lot” of money on a woman who’s not sure how much she likes you, will NOT make her like your more. But spending NO money on the same woman might make her decide against you.
Again, for quality women, it’s NOT how much you spend, but whether you spend on her. Of course, most women aren’t stupid. If you’re a CEO and taking her to McDonald’s, that won’t wash. However, if you’re a struggling musician, she might go “hmmm…McDonald’s?” in her head, but if your company and the rest of the date is good, she’s not going to hold it against you. If you’re a d*ckhead, then yeah, she will hold it against you.
Theo, I think you misunderstood my comments. Chivalry and courting SHOULD be used in the beginning of a budding relationship. My point, however, was that courting doesn’t require fancy, expensive dates. Courting is showing a woman you are interested in her by calling her and planning outings together. It has everything to do with spending time with a woman, whether it’s ice cream and a walk in the park, or enjoying a concert in the park together that has no price tag/small price tag attached to it. My point was that men who encounter women who complain that a man isn’t interested because he isn’t taking her out to a 5-star restaurant should simply move on and find someone else.
Chance, I apologize for that. I totally misread your comment. 🙂
Bye, Obsidian. You can now blog about this experience at A Voice for Men.
Noemi, I never said it mattered how much was spent because it doesn’t matter to me. We have a difference of opinions on how the first few dates should go and that’s alright. In my experience, what I stated has been true for me.
OK, I have to say this. I have been reading the responses here for a long time. What I see it this. It’s quite simple. Women will write a post bashing men. All they want is sex. Older men are garbage. Men can’t handle a strong independent woman. Etc… The posts are very one sided with regularity. And, nobody calls them out except for a few of us guys, and we don’t call out but a fraction of them.
On the other hand, when one of us men do something similar, we are castigated because we didn’t qualify it with, yes, I know women have dating problems too, etc… This mirrors everything many men are feeling in society these days. It’s what prompted Bill Maher to make the statement that in this country, it’s literally politically incorrect just to be male.
When a woman posts her completely negative experience regarding men, the tone her post is received with is generally supportive. Often she is told to leave the zero and get a hero, so to speak. If she is saying that it is all men, she is generally met with agreement. If a woman with 4 kids complains that she can’t find a man, she isn’t told she needs to reassess her SMV because 4 kids is a deal breaker for 90% of the men, and near 100% of the top shelf men. No, a lot of women will say that “She doesn’t have to settle.” Yes, check that blog, you will find a lot of stuff like that. The worst she gets is advice on how to possibly find a decent guy. What she doesn’t get is tough love telling her that she isn’t the same girl that was able to have her pick of men, and that she has to be way way more realistic about her situation. And she certainly isn’t castigated for wanting a top shelf guy.
If a woman complains that she can’t find a guy that can handle a strong, independent woman, she isn’t told that maybe the problem isn’t the men, but her attitude. Maybe she isn’t nearly as nice as she thinks she is. Maybe she’s actually quite brutish in her personality…but she is never told that.
When women just complain about men in general, they are never slapped down and asked what they are trying to accomplish. They are never told to go find some feminist board to post on. Evan does do that occasionally, but he does not read all of the posts so a whole lot of them go unchallenged because fellow female posters rarely if ever outright challenge such postings. As I said, I see a whole lot of back rubbing on the female side.
On the contrary, we men get called out regularly by the men, and of course a woman or two is quick to cheer for him when he does it. Don’t ever see that on the reverse side. But as I said, this largely mirrors what is going on in society.
False. You are summarily ignoring literally hundreds of posts where I tell my womn readers things they don’t want to hear from a man’s point of view.
Put it this way: if you think I favor women, you’re wrong. If you think I favor men, you’re wrong.
As for women readers, it should be no surprise they get bothered by women bashing on a blog designed primarily for women.
If a woman csme to a MGOTW blog to rip on men, she’d be treated even worse. So quit complaining. You come here to stir the pot with largely critical anti woman rhetoric, you shouldn’t expect a hero’s welcome.
Russell 19 – at least your post made me laugh. Out loud actually.
I have not yet met the man of my dreams but neither will I “downgrade” myself as you so kindly say “she isn’t the same girl that was able to have her pick of men?”
Really?
Based on what criteria? Age? Looks? Gravity?
Baloney to your text, really and I’m being very polite.
Reading Comprehension for the win. I was referring to the woman who had four kids and lamented that all those hot guys she was dating didn’t want anything from her but sex. She noted that she was very good looking ad when she was younger, had her pick of men. Before having 4 kids. That’s the point. The hot guys don’t want to marry a woman who already has four kids. Heck, even most average guys don’t. It’s just a fact, and not one that is a mystery to anyone.
Happy I could provide you with a laugh. I get plenty of laughs reading the comments and one should always give back. It’s just the polite thing to do.
Sorry Russell 19.2.1
There ARE hot guys who do like women with kids. I’ve known a few.
It’s possible, isn’t it, that women want sex too?
Absolutely true on both counts Judy. Some men do love kids. But the reality of it is that 4 kids cost a lot of money. It is literally 3 times more expensive to go to the movies vs taking a single woman. Now I am not saying that this would deter every man, but it will deter MOST. The reality is that a woman has to subtract some RMV points for every child she has. I say RMV because I think SMV does not fit because men will sleep with women they would never consider for a relationship, so we need to distinguish between a person’s SMV and their RMV. In my experience, a woman’s SMV is more often higher than her RMV, while for most men, their RMV is higher than their SMV.
This holds true for the woman in the 4 kids blog post Evan did. She had no shortage of men willing to sleep with her, but none wanted a relationship with her. So there were many suggestions for her. Find a guy who loves kids but can not have kids of his own. Find a guy who has a few kids, and thus has the same problem she does, and for their own Brady Bunch. Or find an older guy who likes kids but never had any of his own. Those are a few of her best options. What is not an option for her, period, is those top shelf guys her own age because those guys can and are getting women who don’t have kids.
This meme is how many guys these days feel about the situation. http://i.imgur.com/ZDYzphx.jpg
Now in truth, nobody is really wrong in the first half. The nerd thinks the hot girl is who he wants, and she thinks the bad boy thug is who she wants. But she has kids with the bad boy who either dumps her, or she becomes tired of his crap and dumps him. Now she wants the nerd she ignored because he offers stability and money for her brood. But now that he has found his place in the world, he wants no part of that. If he is smart, he finds the nerd chick he ignored and who was also likely ignoring him because she wanted the bad boy thug too.
This is just a meme and only shows one aspect to this very complex issue, but I do know that most men these days have very little interest in raising another man’s kids. What will convince him to see it differently is a woman who he sees as better than he is likely to find otherwise, and this isn’t just looks. It also involves how she treats him.
I have dared a few women with kids and warn men that it is not for the feint hearted, and that they need to get the idea out of their head immediately that it will be anything at all like dating the women they’ve dated who have no kids. If that is what they expect, it will have zero chance of success. They literally need to be ready to step right in and play daddy the moment the relationship becomes serious, and I also advise pre-marital type counseling to get advice on how to deal with the kids. For instance, he absolutely cannot be the disciplinarian for the kids, especially if they are beyond the toddler years. Even Dr Phil warns against that. I assure you that it will make most kids hate that man.
Anyway, back on topic…yes, some men do love kids, and most women love sex. But a woman with kids must deal with the reality that kids alters the way men perceive her. It is not the same as when she was a hottie in high school, or college, or just after college, and she had no kids. She has to be aware of the fact that this will be a deal breaker for many men with regards to relationships, but not necessarily some dates and sex. If she keeps this in mind, she can make better choices based on what SHE wants out of a relationship with a guy.
It’s definitely dead. I’ve never seen any proof that it’s still alive. I’d like to think there Is chivalrous, respectful men, but I haven’t seen one for years. I mean, yeah, their upbringing probably plays a small part in that, also the way things have gone all modern. I only date alpha men, and always check out whether he is worth keeping. He could look like George Clooney, but if he treats me like garbage, I don’t return. Not every woman or man, is so naive, that they can’t work someone out. I recognise when someone is shifty. They only have themselves to blame. I just hope it comes back to bite them, for not respecting me. After all, love is meant to be mutual, and if you don’t have a strong bond with the person, might aswell leave them behind. They’ll only change if they want you to know how special you are to them. If they can’t actually be bothered to even check that you’re alright, well that’s no relationship. In fact, what even is it? I’m just laughing so hard, because I’m now with a man, who helps me every day. I don’t ask for much. Just respect and effort.