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If I had a dollar for the number of women who have said that to me, well, let’s just say I’d be writing this from Tahiti, not Los Angeles.
And I can’t disagree with you: attraction is NOT a choice.
Yet if the very thing you’re attracted to never leads to the relationship of your dreams, don’t you think it may be wise to make some adjustments?
I think so.
You’d make adjustments if you didn’t feel good about your body on January 1st.
You’d make adjustments if you were only looking for jobs on Monster.com and it never got you a job.
You’d make adjustments if you alienated your co-workers and wanted to feel better from 9-5 every day.
We’re constantly making adjustments in life.
Except in one arena.
You’d make adjustments if you didn’t feel good about your body on January 1st.
Should it be any news that it’s the one arena in which you struggle the most?
And a big reason you struggle to connect with men is because you’re so bright.
I hear ya.
Like many of you, I’m a bit of an intellectual snob. I read voraciously. I like to discuss weighty issues. I know a little bit about a lot and can pretty much hold my own in any cocktail party conversation.
You want to know something else about me?
I’m a know-it-all.
I’m difficult.
I’m moody.
I’m opinionated as hell.
I’m a workaholic.
I’m an egomaniac.
I always want things my way.
Now before you decide that you hate me, I’d like you to consider two things:
First, does that description remind you of any of the men you’ve dated in the past?
If so, it shouldn’t be much of a surprise.
That’s the thing about really smart guys. They live in their heads. They’re somewhat tortured. They know what they’re worth. They have enough information and ammunition to be impossible to argue with. They can be endlessly fascinating and even more frustrating.
You’ve seen this yourself MANY times.
And yet you still say you want a man who is smarter than you are.
Hmmm…
Sounds like a pretty exhausting relationship, doesn’t it?
Sounds like the price you pay for dating a great conversationalist is pretty steep, huh?
On one side, you get a brilliant, stimulating mind, which really turns you on…
On the other you get a narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed, coldly logical man who is much more concerned with ideas than feelings, and much more concerned with himself than with you.
Once again… Hmmm…
Before I forget, there was one other thing I wanted you to consider:
You will STILL be attracted to geniuses, but you now know that they do not make for a good fit in your life. Never have. Never will.
Very smart. Know-it-all. Difficult. Moody. Short-tempered. Opinionated. Workaholic. Egomaniac. Judgmental. Always want things your way.
Does that describe anybody else besides those brilliant men you’re drawn to?
It certainly describes my clients. And I wouldn’t be all that shocked if it somewhat described you as well.
And when two people who are that smart, that opinionated, and that strong-willed get together, it should obvious that sparks will fly — and tensions will mount.
So while I’m not judging you for being just like I am — I AM pointing out to you that if you insist that you can ONLY be attracted to men who are smarter than you, you are relegating yourself to less than 2% of the population (before we consider things like looks, height, money, religion, humor, charm, attraction, values, etc.)
Moreover, you’re relegating yourself to a man who is NOT A GOOD FIT FOR YOU.
And therefore, it doesn’t matter if you’re attracted to only MENSA men.
The key to your future successful relationships is going to come in opening up to smart guys without all the baggage that comes from being brilliant and driven.
That does NOT mean that you are going to find yourself with a man who has never read a newspaper, who has no interest in foreign travel, or who can’t keep up with you and your friends.
It does mean that you need to accept men who are not in the 98th percentile of intelligence, and recognize that there are plenty of amazing, bright, relationship-oriented men who may not be smarter than you.
It’s not all or nothing.
We compromise on things every single day.
Your job isn’t perfect. You put up with it for 10 hours a day.
Your friends and family aren’t perfect. You put up with them for the rest of the time.
And yet you still hold your boyfriend to a ridiculous standard, as if a man who went to a state school and doesn’t watch Sunday morning political talk shows is a dullard.
I know, I know.
You can’t help what you’re attracted to.
Me either.
But I spent the first 35 years of my life chasing women who were just like me — the smartest women in the room. And I put up with the same things that you have to deal with from men — selfishness, difficulty, self-righteousness and so on.
I married a woman who was smart — who gets every joke, who knows about Shakespeare and classical music, who has definite opinions about Israel/Palestine — but she’s not necessarily in the 98th percentile of intellectual curiosity.
And you know what?
It feels GREAT.
Because most of our lives are not spent discussing the finer points of Proust, or the best way to fix the 2-party system, or the science behind String Theory… our time is usually spent talking about fixing up the house, raising our daughter, planning our next vacation, figuring out what we’re going to have for dinner, etc.
Thus, my wife doesn’t HAVE to be like me — because we’re great together.
So if you believe in self-help, if you’ve read books about spirituality, if you’ve gone to shrinks and taken weekend seminars, and yet you still think your husband has to be on the exact same wavelength as you?
Sorry.
He doesn’t.
He just has to respect you. And you have to respect him.
My wife hasn’t done any of that personal growth stuff and you know what?
She’s happy. Better than that, she’s CONTENT.
Have you ever been with a brilliant guy who is, at heart, a miserable person?
I’ll bet you have.
And I’ll bet you’d do it again — hoping for a different ending this time.
Once again, there’s no different ending.
Brilliant men tend to be bad partners. You’ve seen this numerous times.
So, from now on, you’re going to discover the virtues of smart, kind, thoughtful, generous, easygoing, commitment-oriented men.
You will STILL be attracted to geniuses, but you now know that they do not make for a good fit in your life. Never have. Never will.
You CAN get the relationship you want; just not with the man you always thought you wanted.
Trust me, the reality is FAR better than the fantasy.
JB says
Great post.
Evan if i may ask, who is the “pickier” of the two sexes? My female friends want it all, height, money, intelligence, looks, full head of hair etc…the guys i know who have it all(for the most part) are happy with a fun, attractive girl. Why is there such a discrepancy?
Freddie says
I hate to say this only i have never been through this which is very good smart comes with a brain and without a brain you can’t think because you won’t have a mind to think to never let a woman out smart you first of all never hangs around so called friends that often you something that you don’t do just like offer you a beer or liquor when you know that you never taste it before next get yourself a place to live idon’t care if your parents give you a place as a gift or you bought it yourself and next makes sure your place is bigger enough not so big that it runs up your lights bills next think before you go out get a woman pregnant because that child gonna cost you that’s where trouble begin now you gonna have child support and the children and families service on your back cook your own foods for me i learned how to cook when i was abouts seven years old because i had to i grow up without a mom’s another thing don’t go out to club’s also don’t support your favorite team by buying their name brand hat’s and clothes that’s a waste of money don’t use too lights in your house all at once don’t joy ride because you got money to spend if you meet a woman checks her background before making another move have a strong mind not to let her makes you weak if she not comfortable with that let her go she wasn’t for you in the first place that way you have saved yourself a lot’s of trouble because sex really a mind thing also with Disease out there just like AIDS and others Disease you don’t wanna be in any hurry also watch out for those kinds of people who say you must be gay ignore that because they just wanna push you on some woman’s so you can fall as low as they are never fall for that little tricky game the more money you save the more your so called friends gonna try to makes you spend so watch out for me im a single BLACK MAN ihave learn all of this from watching others people mistake so i never had a problem with this kind of stuff i never been married or got any kids or taste any liquor or beer or did any drugs before ihave a lot’s of haters out there for been a BLACK MAN they looksat us as trouble like we out to do something just like me i loves MILK so now I’m better known as MILKMAN that’s my drink they say don’t drink and drive ha i do but not with a gallon of milk anymore just a quart of milk you can save a lot’s money if you lived alone rent free and when you eat everyone eats because it all yours also when you file your income tax return keep it in a safe place never open it until mid’s December don’t worry from the time you get it back its won’t expired until January 1 but makes sure you cash it before January 1 because it will expired i do it every year i have to be careful very careful because i don’t have much responsibility and im single without any kids or rent and lived alone only if you really want to have something you got to be smart by doing it i always heard when a guy ejaculate in his wife its a good thing so im not married so i won’t be ejaculate in disease you can’t trust sleeping with different women’s or not even your girlfriend or wife without cover yourself up im not talking a real women im talking a bout those kinds of women’s don’t mind sleeping and not thinking mostly of the time a woman see a guy with a good job nice car’s money ladies don’t fall for that because he’s probably got so many women’s that he can’t keep up with also ladies think before you jump as for me i always think before i think a bout a relationship with a woman i really take my time after all i have seen mostly my classmates died from AIDS just for a feeling of deaths also never trust a condom they are not 100% safe found yourself a woman you will be comfortable with and both of you talk a bout not cheating buy a book a bout safe sex to makes both of you afraid to sleep around you both sleep with each other no outside sex now you have it its up to you because i knew all a bout this without being BLIND because not all men’s are BLIND especially this one GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Amy says
This is the longest sentence in the history of the world.
Jaleesa says
😂😂
Robert Bruce says
Could you repeat that, please? I didn’t get the whole thing.
kimby says
@JB come on, we all know that guys who “have it all” in a woman are never satisfied with what they have. They’ll want a playmate too, who is probably her exact opposite.
lawyerette says
“Men say exactly what they mean. Yet somehow, women still look for alternative explanations. Why? Is it because you don’t say what you mean?”
Evan, I wanted to take issue with this Tweet. I didn’t want reply on Twitter because I don’t want all my (male) friends knowing I listen to a dating coach. And my response is way longer than 140 characters.
Men are not as direct as they claim to be. Now, I’m not saying you all are difficult to figure out. You’re not, once a woman has the “code” – and what you are so great at, Evan, is translating and giving that code to women. But men aren’t that direct. For instance, if a guy is stringing a woman along in a FWB situation, he does he say? “I’m not ready for a relationship/I’m not ready for a relationship right now/I’m not looking for anything serious.” Taken literally, none of those things mean he won’t or can’t or doesn’t want to eventually get serious with you. Which is why, I think, women don’t take those phrases to mean as such. If a guy were to be direct and say something like, I dunno, “[Woman’s name], you’re great and I really enjoy spending time with you, but I don’t ever see you becoming my wife” – I’m pretty sure he’d never hear from her again. And guys know that, which is why they don’t say it.
Lucy says
HAHAHA lawyerette I love your answer. I’ve had this situation long term fwb, although ::plot twist:: neither of us were looking for anything serious and when I (finally) vocalized that, >he< freaked out. Too honest about my intentions. Or lack there of… Also, he was an ‘experiment’ with someone of lesser intelligence, didn’t work obviously. Very happily taken by a smart man now.
Robert Bruce says
Fascinating…if a man is direct, and tells the truth, he’s a heartless, cruel cad who deserves the slings and arrows, etc. And if he’s not direct, he’s a duplicitous a**hole.
Of course, a woman can always tell half truths and lies–and these are to be accepted without condition by men because, well, because they’re women and it’s their RIGHT to be evasive, or outright dishonest. However, here we have a case in which a woman uses a mans’s body as an “experiment.” She is proud of how clever she is. She even finds it funny to accompany her superficiality, and cold scientific use of another human being with her “directnes,” and clearly enjoys how her lack of duplicity “freaked” someone out–and she gloats about how great it is to be rid of him, having found someone “worthy” of her expansive intelligence. Are we supposed to be impressed with your accomplishment? What’s next, Lucy, eugenics? And does your present beau really know what he’s gotten himself into?
JulesK says
Post of the thread!
Joek says
“Taken literally, none of those things mean he won’t or can’t or doesn’t want to eventually get serious with you.”
No, that’s you interpreting.
His words: “I’m not ready for a relationship”. You assuming he may be ready sometime with you is all assumption on your part.
You’ve just shown a perfect example of wehat Evan was talking about – a man spoke clearly and you reinterpreted it to fit your agenda/paradigm.
Robert says
Wrong. That’s you refusing to string two possibilities together for your own confirmation bias.
Let’s get something straight right now. No man and no woman is exactly alike. To think, “because I think this way, he must.” — or — “Because I did things this way, he will do the same.” is very wrong.
No one group likes to be painted with broad brushes… Not even prisoners on death row. Nobody is exactly alike and to assume that “a man doesn’t want anything — at all, ever — is intellectual dishonesty.
This is equivalent to a woman wanting sex, but not wanting, nor seeking parenthood.. Remember now, when women fought for abortions, they used the excuse that “consent to sex was not consent to parenthood” and thus the statement:
“Taken literally, none of those things mean he won’t or can’t or doesn’t want to eventually get serious with you.” actually becomes a factual statement.
If one person falls out of conformity, than surely there is another….and another…. and another… We’re talking about a dynamic scale here… Not an individual paradigm such as you vs. me.
Stephan says
That’s a man saying just enjoy the moment.
Why do you need a clear and definite goal when you two are just in a FWB situation?
Before you answer that, answer this, why are there so many single men who have clear definite relationship goals?
Ruth says
I think that is good advice. No one has a crystal ball and knows if a relationship will last or where it will go. Put energy into creating the best relationship today, who knows what tomorrow holds.
Robert Bruce says
Lawyerette,
What a marvelous study in the fundamentals of contradiction! A woman claiming that men “aren’t all that direct.” For years, and years, and years I have been exposed to the same thing with women–they demand the truth, and then hate us for being truthful. They want honesty, but can’t even remotely handle it. They want a sweet, sensitive, emotional guy–then are contemptuous of us for actually having feelings (which translate in womanspeak for “weak”). You say that men “aren’t that direct”…there might be a reason for that…like, you know, when we’re direct women have this annoying tendency to completely come unglued?
Case in point: “Do these jeans make my butt look fat?” If the truthful, honest answer is “Yes, actually any jeans would make your butt look fat because your butt is fat,” which of course would precipitate another eruption of Krakatoa. A man MUST answer “Oh, darling, how can you say a thing like that! You know I love the way you look in those jeans, and your slender form fits into them perfectly.”
If men have become adept in the art of evasion, it’s because women have been our tutors in that endeavor. Women require us to twist our normative behavior of actually being direct; the latter is something that we can do with men, but God help us if we try it with women.
Get me?
So, if a woman is bedding a guy with the idea that getting him in the sack is most likely the best way to get him to commit, and the sex is regular and good, but the guy isn’t interested in commitment/marriage (a condition which is practically endemic to my half of the species these days), what do you expect him to say? I thought that woman were the self-proclaimed experts at saying one thing and meaning another…are you saying now that you can’t translate a modified version of feminine doublespeak? Any woman who doesn’t have good enough intuition to know that a man who’s getting some regularly from her, and says things like “I’m not ready for anything serious right now,” really ought to reevaluate her aptitude in that arena. That, or she unconsciously knows that she’s being taken for a ride (pardon the pun), but simply is in denial.
If a man says the words “[I’m] not ready for anything serious…” in a sentence, that hardly needs deep interpretation, regardless of what conditions are tacked onto this definitive statement of fact. It means exactly what he said. Not being “ready” means “not interested,” and if he’s not ready now, it undoubtedly means he loves taking Mr. One Eye to the optometrist for regularly scheduled appointments, but doesn’t want to set up shop in the good doctor’s office on a permanent basis.
So, what’s it going to be? Women are the apotheosis of intuition and “reading” men? Or are in a state of denial regarding the guy they’re sleeping with, expecting him to be perfectly honest and truthful about relationship status (or lack thereof) when he knows full well that being direct will inevitably bring about the end of the present association.
Worse yet, does a woman really think that by sleeping with a man that he’ll magically want to take the plunge into commitment, or take the perilous walk of death down the aisle of insanity?
It’s interesting that the word “commitment” is also associated with putting a person (usually for good and all) into a mental institution–and to be honest (being even more direct here), I see little difference between the two. There is also a reason that marriage is often called an “institution”–stately and respectable on the outside, but madness reigns within.
You can’t spin this to blame the guy this time, lawyerette…your argument is not having a convincing effect upon the jury. Men spin things because women require them to. You can’t demand honesty, and then forswear it when it suits your purpose. You can’t ask for the truth, and then be self-righteously indignant when a man speaks it.
Women are the princesses of the duplicitous, and are not only unapologetic about it, but expect men to understand and accept that duplicity without conditions. Therefore, if men spin things to fit the situation, you should be ready to accept the fact that,as men, we’ve merely adhered to your collective wishes, and learned to play the game, the rules of which you have long since established. In short, you made this bed, and you must choose if you wish to continue to “lie” in it. Don’t expect a straight answers from guys when, from time immemorial, you’ve required men to fudge the truth to accommodate your rarified sensitivities.
Robert the Bruce
Ellen says
WHO are these women wanting men smarter than they are? Please tell me why!!!
Like Evan, I am an intellectual snob but I keep it well hidden most of the time. Must be my Southern Belle training, which, all things considered, has served me very well over the years in a variety of situations, not just romantic. I mean, I guess I come across as cerebral, been told I am very strong, smart, informed, well read etc. but still I think people tend to underestimate me til they know me well ’cause I don’t mouth off too much about my many opinions. Learned over the years people aren’t interested in what you have to say too much, just who you are and how you make them feel.
To repeat, I am 58. I remember growing up with this sense from the media, society that women just weren’t as smart as men. I resented it, knew it wasn’t true. It’s why I’ve always REALLY resonated with, understood African Americans and the prejudice they have had to endure. Many are friends, and not just casually.
But I’m getting off track here, sorry. So imagine my surprise when I start dating 3 years ago and realize, with force, that I am probably smarter than 80% of the guys I contact/contact me! Sobering. Ironic. So when on occasion I date a REALLY smart man for a while I often get nervous ’cause I figure he can out-maneuver me every time (’cause he’s more head than heart- see comment below). Knows all the gender wars ends and outs. Will make mincemeat of me eventually.
Still, I’m attracted to them, them to me ’cause of who we are (I am VERY into ideas, the big picture). My banner on all my dating websites reads: “Looking for a man who’s a good blend of head and heart”. ‘Cause the super cerebral types seldom have well developed hearts usually. ‘Cause Evan’s right, they DO live in their heads too much.
I overthink things too (a lot actually), but I always view the man as a child of God first and foremost. They seldom return the favor. If I had a dollar for every smart man who’s tried to play me, I could fly to Tahiti tonight! First class! lol
naomi says
I have always been attracted to smarter men. In my life I have dated men dumber than me, and it never worked out. I can’t respect a man I think is not smarter.
I am lucky to be married to a very intelligent man.
Kyra says
Highly intelligent are my downfall. I’m a sapiosexual for sure. I’ve always been complimented on my intelligence. Or, rather, friends, employers, men I’m conversing with or on a date with have always given me a strange “look” when speaking with me or made a comment on how intelligent they believe me to be. One man at a bar said flat out, “I think I have to stop talking to you. I think I may be too dumb to talk to you.” Granted, I’m African American, so men always seem so shocked by this woman of color in front of them or in emails with them that show a high sense of intelligence. I’ll never understand that sort of ignorance…
Anyways, I am incredibly attracted to highly intelligent men. I’m very into ideas and the BIG picture too, and get immense delight discussing the elements that create the BIG picture. Any man who enjoy doing that with me gets my motor running. Every single one of these types of men have never worked out. Ever.
However, you know the type of men who truly are into me? The men who always want a second date or a third or a fourth? The men who are always willing and ready to take me anywhere I want for dinner or talk about *gasp* being my boyfriend if we things work out? The not so brilliant dudes. The dudes who use “your” instead of “you’re.” The dudes who don’t know who Franz Kafka is, but really love that movie about the human fly with that Jeff guy. The ones who type scarcasm and actually, really mean to type scarcasm as if it’s a word.
It hurts my heart every time one of them goes gaga for me. They are the sweetest men, but conversations with them are like getting my teeth drilled at the dentist. I really try to give it them a chance, but it is so difficult. And, I know the aversion and difficulty I have dating this sort of man is exactly why I am single to this day. I am an intellectual snob and it is keeping me single.
Evan Marc Katz says
If you are in the 95th percentile, try dating down to the 75th percentile. They’ve heard of Kafka and know how to spell. Promise.
Kyra says
Ha! “Scarcasm.” Nice Evan.
“Scarcasm” was a real guy, btw. He liked me and asked for my number. I gave it It didn’t work out for other reasons, but I’m trying. I trying!
Evan Marc Katz says
Get over yourself. Seriously. I did and it really helped. Also, consider that a man will have to tolerate your arrogance and condescension for thinking you are “above” 99.7% of people based on intelligence alone, when, in fact, you may suffer from a lack of kindness, warmth, compassion, humor, patience, etc.
kek says
Most people assume that intelligence is what they think it is, many are wrong. often times left brain intellect accompanies an ego wall that not a lot can pass through their own bias. I have been very guilty of this at times but it’s something to work on for sure. I’d prefer a down to earth girl personally but i genuinely don’t care about her intelligence as long as she treats me well and i can relax around her. hell if she just listens to me ramble about something interesting to me and even if she doesn’t have a clue wtf i’m saying, gives me her time anyway because she enjoys just being around me, that’s wife material to me.
i’ve only met maybe 2 or 3 women who had some intellectualism to them but didn’t have a stick up their ass to accompany it. Thanks to feminists pushing women to compete with men rather than saying fuck it whoever is better with math or reads more books about physics doesn’t matter, lets just enjoy each other’s company because we’re both good people at the end of the day. it’s very easy to vibe and get along with someone, if both people want to.
either way these “intellectualism” women are very incomplete and the irony is are more like men than women, therefor very few men will be attracted to them long term once they realize that the pretty face isn’t enough to make things last. logic is the domain of the sacred masculine, emotion is the domain of the sacred feminine. the sacred feminine has been demonized and destroyed in both men and women of our society, hence we have a bunch of overintellectualizing, sociopathic eggheads with severe ego disorders.
Prospect says
Kyra
Is it about intellectual intelligence or emotional intelligence?
When people mention intelligence it tends to mean intellectual, but for a successful relationship emotional intelligence is required. And in men especially, it seems that it’s harder to have both (women are EXPECTED to be emotionally intelligent and even if a woman is more intellectual she will be aware of this covert expectation).
And I do think that men have it easier in that respect. The highly intellectual man probably prefers a less intellectual woman – less of a threat. Because such a pairing conforms to gender stereotypes, it’s easier and more accepting of men to find a more social, grounded and less intellectual woman.
But, as you’re well aware, it doesn’t work the other way round so easily. As a British woman of Caribbean descent, I can also identify with the shock people show when you are well spoken and articulate; very frustrating. I once had a white male colleague (who was interested in me romantically, not reciprocated on my part) who said that I “thought too much”. That felt threatening to him. I just don’t think that very intellectual men are interested in very intellectual women.
Interestingly enough, he married a woman of Mauritian woman of Indian descent who was not on his intellectual/educational level, but had a great deal of emotional intelligence, who would support him emotionally and domestically and with whom he could raise a family.
I think that Evan has a point though. In a relationship it is more about how you work together as a partnership, especially if you have a family and that highly intellectual discussions will go on the back burner.
Ultimately it’s about balance. If you are very much in your head then to balance things out you’ll attract less intellectual men. Maybe you need to shift your own internal balance to get out of your head more and in doing so attract someone on your intellectual wavelength.
Kyra says
Prospect,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think emotional intelligence tends to come naturally to a good majority of people. I tend to not have an issue meeting men with emotional intelligence. It’s intelligence that is the problem.
I tend to very much interest and attract intellectual men, but for nothing more than a casual dalliance. But, that’s the majority of men I attract in the dating zone, intelligent or not. As you stated, men often times find highly intelligent women intimidating or exhibiting too much dominant energy, and they tend to find women who may not be on their intellectual level and with a great deal of emotional intelligence more attractive for long term relationships and marriage. I don’t in any way mean men partner with unintelligent women, but a highly intelligent woman in a relationship usually has an equal or an individual who may exhibit or have greater intellectualism than they. As a woman of color, I simply do not attract that.
I talk about a relationship I have a lot on here about a man I am very much in love with and very much in love with me, but is severely avoidant. He loves me, is incredibly emotionally and sexually attracted to me, is emotionally and sexually committed to me, but never wants to get married to anyone and desperately clings to his autonomy. I would have walked away long ago if it weren’t for the sexual, emotional and intellectual compatibility we have. I have never in my life experienced its equal. We’ve seen one another off-and-on for ten years and part of the reason we are highly attracted and attached to one another and can’t seem to end our romantic relationship is because we are both really “in our heads”, incredibly literate and think on a very deep almost obsessive level about things. I’m not saying there aren’t others out there that are the same, but when you have an intense emotional and mental compatibility with someone it’s undeniable and (sadly) difficult to walk way from. Our conversations begin in the evenings and go into the very early mornings and we find an immense pleasure and comfort discussing the most mundane topics on a very intense, yet casual, level. I’ve known, dated, been “friends” with a lot of very smart and engaging men, but none have touched me on a deep emotional and intellectual level as this man.
If I could find a man who shares these qualities and wants to get married, I’d be over the moon. If, as you say, I could attract men who are a bit more on my intellectual wavelength I’d trust and enjoy the (online) dating process more. As a Black woman, however, (I am sad say) there is a very big intellectual incompatibility with the men I do seem to attract, especially online. And, it has made the online dating process extremely uncomfortable and unsatisfying for me.
Ellen says
PS-
JB, I think many older woman (30+) may be pickier because they may have this sense that men aren’t worth it in general, aren’t worth the huge hassle of attracting and keeping them unless they can get EXACTLY what they want.
My sense/experience is men are happier in general in long-term relationships than women and so maybe more willing to “settle”, especially after marriage. Save childbearing and/or extreme loneliness, women proceed with much more caution after a certain age or give up altogether. I can’t tell you how many women I know who have given up on men and they are still fairly young.
I am middle-aged and feel somewhat similarly except that in my saner moments I sometimes try to find “good enough”.
Lenny26 says
Giving up on men and losing hope of ever finding the right man are completely two different things. If you need the answer you need to go to the roots of things. start from women being the keepers of morality.
Zaq says
[email protected]
Women are far far pickier. It’s in the genes, they can’t help it. Pregnancy is a major commitment, and they have only so many eggs (90% of which are gone by the time they are 30 I believe).
As a man its frustrating, but it is what it is. Remember though that although men will set the bar comparatively low, they compare all women to an average 20 year old. This leaves women over 40 seriously compromised, and those over 50 mostly out of the game.
I’m not sure it’s easy to compromise though. We make compromises on the jobs we have and many hate every day of it. I think I read somewhere that most people are dissatisfied with their job, but income has to be earned somehow.
I know a guy who is married to an unattractive woman. That is all he could get. He is constantly looking for a replacement.
I’m sure you have seen the film Shallow Hal. The film was trying to get across the idea that a short poor man is shallow in wanting attractive women who would all reject him. This is of course nonsense. If anything the attractive women were shallow in rejecting him.
The interesting thing was that, thanks to hypnotic suggestion he was able to see a very ugly woman as extremely beautiful.
If only that were possible in the real world.
Robert says
Speak for yourself. I tend to value older women’s input. I’ve been burned bad from young chicks. They are too busy dodging the 50 flirts from great men they tend to deem unfit, even though the majority of women have nothing to offer, in the personality department. Yes… that was an opinion, not fact.
But… I’m as of now, asexual. I’m married to my research. OOH-RAH! 😉
Ruth says
I am a 54 year old kind, attractive, and intelligent woman. I have had very little difficulty in finding men my age or 10 years older on line dating. I have had to turn down men who wanted to continue to date me when I was not particularly interested in them. I think women in their 50s have a lot to offer- done with raising small children, time to travel and pursue leisure interests, done with drama, self-confident, usually financially stable , deeper perspective and compassion. I think more men in their 50s and 60s are figuring this out. Wonen 50 + are awesome!!!!!!!!
Goldie says
Couple points…
1) As someone who’s currently seeing a very smart guy, and has two very smart guys (age 16 and 18) living at home, I’ve got to say that not all very smart guys are the unsufferable a-holes that you describe. Just had to say this, because if I don’t speak up in defense of very smart guys, who will? 🙂
2) As someone who’s been around Mensa members long enough (two annual gatherings, more FB friends than I can count, etc) I have a hard time equating qualifying for Mensa membership with intelligence. Yah, these people have all passed a test that evaluates your logical reasoning and your ability to solve certain problems quickly. Some of them are highly intelligent, some are not. Some are great husbands and partners. Most will (and have) send a woman running for the hills. Likewise, one of the smartest guys I’ve known has tried taking an online Mensa test and failed. He was devastated, poor guy, but to me, the problem is with the test and not with him. It’s almost like being in the proverbial 2% is not related to actual intelligence.
3) It’s not the intelligence that you’re born with that is important, it’s what you do with it. I’ve met enough highly intelligent men who are not interested in anything other than sitting on a couch and watching whatever happens to be on TV. Regardless of how smart they are, we won’t get along.
Which leads me to thinking, maybe instead of saying we want intelligence, we need to stop and think about why we want it. What is the end result we want to achieve with an intelligent partner? I’d say I want someone I can respect, and have fun with. As long as he’s intelligent enough for these two things to happen, I’m good.
@JB, I like how in your comment women want it all – height, looks, full head of hair, while men just want an attractive girl. Aren’t these two things the same? unless men don’t care about the “attractive girl”‘s height and whether she has a full head of hair! I bet they don’t care about her weight either, as long as she’s attractive 😉
Robert says
Well… I would speak up… But honestly, no one is going to give a shit about men…
Women have an in-group confirmation bias and men favor women over men, for the pussy… So… men will never be able to objectively admit that they sell themselves out for companionship.
But, no one listens to me anyway… Does it really matter? I hate humans. We are sucky animals…and what really sucks… is that my research? I’m not so sure I want to help humanity afterall… I think we’re better off extinct.
Society even hates men… Hell.. Men don’t even have reproductive autonomy, nor do women want to grant men “equality”.. Wow… Such hypocrisy. So sick of society.
Andrew says
I understand your frustration man, but I can sense the bitterness. Don’t interpret that as a jab at you. Like I said I understand, we have every reason to be bitter. Sexual selection, while remarkably successful, is cold-hearted.
The reality is that most men and women only see their respective half of the game, not seeing the full picture. You see the full picture, but you can only relate to your half. I can’t claim to relate to both, but I just try to remember that these women that seem terribly in-compassionate to men probably have no idea what the other side of the game is like and have never thought about it.
Neither side invented the game, but everybody plays it. It sucks but its necessary. The blessing to all of this, is that we’re now an evolved form of naked ape that is capable of self-reflection and understanding that the game exists, and this gives us the capability to make our own rules.
But before we can do that, the rank and file must be educated and trained to understand the game from both perspectives. Unfortunately you are correct that men can never do this, empathy for men must come from women, because men have no in-group. Men are cooperative to an extent, but that extent ends abruptly when it collides with an individual’s mating prospects.
Ruth says
I feel absolutly terrible when I have to tell a man that it us not going to work out. I agonize for days. I usually want it to work out and rationalize how the relationship could work, but you have to be honest with yourself.
You cannot have a committed relationship with 3 men at the same time so you have to select the relationship that is the healthiest and is the most sustainable for a variety of reasons. I know it is really hard for the man being rejected an I feel like crap for weeks or months. I am truly sorry. However, living a lie is even more hurtful and destructive.
mgmow says
Here’s some confirmation bias your way, and I mean that I find it very difficult to disagree with anything you said. The only reason I could be tempted, and I’m working on fixing this, is the reason you said men would favor women over men but also to add group bias coming down on me hard is an unwelcome threat as well.
Jimmy says
My guess from the text is that whomever wrote it had some pretty shitty relationship fed up with intelligence illusions, when the reality is that if the other person was intelligent and you were ignored like that, that means you are not as smart as you may think… Or, that person was never as Smart as you pointed out to be…
Remember, 2% is a really low number, do not ever consider yourself among minorities on things so abstract as intelligence measures.
Seek out people compatible with you, not Platonic archetypes that you made up to be what you like, the rality is no one really knows what they like until they get it…
Jane says
Goldie, your point 3) is great. I married a guy who’s less intellectual, although quite smart on many other vectors. The frustrating thing is that our lifestyles don’t have a lot in common. I’d be happy to find other people for smart convos—but I’d still like to feel like my husband was more than just a nice-ish roommate!
I found this post after meeting up today with a single friend, who likewise struggles with whether to go for the smart guys she’s attracted to, or to try to dissuade her gut and social training and refocus on a guy with other strengths.
I didn’t know what to tell her. I chose a laid-back and emotionally connected guy because we connected and he seemed to genuinely want to support my career. Yet after we’ve both made sacrifices, he’s regretting our marriage and wants to find a more low key wife back in his hometown. I understand it, but it hurts all the same.
Stacey says
Evan, “very smart” does not equal “know it all”. In fact, most of the times the “know it all”-s are actually not smart at all and don’t really know what they’re talking about. The really smart guys with occupations in math, science, etc. are mostly geeky and type-B personalities, not assertive or aggressive or street-smart. Think the big bang theory types 🙂 I was married to a guy like that once, They’re very mellow in relationships and gladly surrender the leadership 🙂
Jan says
Great article, Evan. I think it goes both ways: if we stereotyped all men as those who wanted Pamela Anderson types – blond, size 2, enhanced with plastic surgery, and an IQ slightly above their shoe size – they would never be happy with one of us. We rail on them for holding women to ridiculous physical standards, and yet many of us are guilty for doing the same thing to them on an intellectual level.
Robert says
Don’t forget the physical level: Initiating divorce for petty shit. MARRIAGE TAKES EFFORT!
If you don’t want effort, don’t marry. Marriage is obsolete these days. Good luck American women finding a man that isn’t a freaking feminist pussy.
There is no incentive for a man to marry. A man doesn’t even have reproductive autonomy to protect his own offspring. Imagine if it was up to a man, if a woman had a child or not…and then he could force her against her will and make her pay into something she never wanted..
Yeah…women are so freaking innocent and it’s “got to be the patriarchy!”
Usually whatever progressives say, end up projecting the exact opposite… Because you know: Actions speak louder than words.
Suheil says
I really love your blog and follow it religiously. That being said, it feels a little weird when you say your wife was not necessarily in the 98th percentile of intellectual curiosity. To me she sounds like just the smartest woman out there, she doesn’t seem to challenge you and she seems to listen, that tells me she’s a very smart person, well above the 98th percentile… because … how often does it happen that you find a person who just “gets it” and who isn’ll all “it’s my way or no way”… the odds are pretty slim if you ask me.
Lance says
There were a few directions you could have gone with this. Well played sir.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks for your thoughts, everybody. And while I thought it might be obvious after my many years of blogging, but just because there are exceptions to every rule doesn’t invalidate the rule.
@Lawyerette – who comes up with an example of men not saying what they mean. You’re right. They don’t in every single instance. But even those men will generally not say “I love you” if they don’t mean it or “You’re my girlfriend” just to sleep with you. But even this misses the larger point – women speak with nuance and subtlety. They avoid conflict. Men are blunt and callous. Once again, these are stereotypes. But if I meet a woman who is blunt and callous, she reminds me of a man. So let’s not get too focused on the fact that there are exceptions. Lets think about why women look for alternate meanings in what men say when he says what he means.
@Goldie – you got a little too focused on the MENSA qualification. That wasn’t the point. I went to one MENSA meeting and my head almost exploded from the social awkwardness. It was just a marker for 98th percentile, nothing more. Yes, there will be many beta males at a MENSA meeting which might make for good partners, but this has nothing to do with my post about women who are attracted to very smart men *who also have looks and social confidence.
@Stacey – same thing. Most of my readers aren’t looking for Big Bang guys (so to speak). They’re looking for the Bill Clintons of the world. Those guys are generally bad bets for peace and long-term commitment. Read the papers if you doubt me.
@Suheil – my wife has the highest emotional intelligence of any one I’ve ever met, but she’ll be the first to admit that she’s not that curious. The fact that I married her should tell you all you need to know about what I truly value most.
JB says
Hmm, i still think Evan is basically trying to tell everyone to stop being so full of yourself and adjust your outlook for a mate accordingly.
I agree Zaq, it is much tougher for older women, but as Evan and Lori Gottleib state, women in their 20’s and early 30’s have a huge amount of men chasing them before the dropoff begins..better to grab a guy who’s an 8 now than wait for a 9 or 10 that will never settle for you. Also, guys who date models are guys who can get models. That’s maybe 2% of the population, the rest of us are more down to earth with our requirements.
Ellen says
PS everyone: The PERFECT movie metaphor for Evan’s point is “Crossing Delancy” with Amy Irving and Peter Riegert. One of my all time favorite romantic movies.
Amy plays a cerebral bookseller/agent who repeatedly turns down Peter (her grandmother’s suggestion as she is a traditional Jewish matchmaker) because he’s not smart enough, sophisticated enough. He runs a pickle stand on Delancy Street while she works in Manhattan….I won’t ruin the movie, but she slowly comes ’round.
Goldie says
Evan, looks like both Stacey and I misunderstood your post, because the Bill Clintons (and G.W. Bushes?) of the world is not what comes to mind when I see the words “really smart guys”, “brilliant guys”, “geniuses”, “cerebral” etc. What I just listed are, as Stacey correctly said, the Sheldons of the world. That’s the category I thought you meant. Looks like, in fact, you are referring to the successful, powerful etc men. I don’t specialize in those, so apologize for my comment. It was made in reference to the “really smart guys”, whom I do know a lot about.
Evan Marc Katz says
Bill Clinton is brilliant, Goldie. Rhodes Scholar. You can’t lump him in with Bush. His intelligence IS what makes him attractive – not his looks.
PermanentGuest says
Interesting article, but I’ve got to come from the other side.
“Smarter than you” does not necessarily mean genius, since not every woman who is intelligent is at a level far above average.
Further, not every smart guy shares the qualities (rather, negative attributes) that you listed. In fact, you’ll find many highly intelligent men who are humble, quirky, and just plain comfortable in their own skin. Not every intelligent guy is insecure.
Lastly, I’m not sure just how many women want a man they are way smarter than. The likely result is a deep insecurity in the male, which leads to a lack of leadership on his part and an unfulfilling relationship.
Ruby says
I’m not looking for a man who’s smarter, but one who is of similar intelligence. I can’t think of any single friend who is looking for someone who is “smarter” than she is. A guy in the same ballpark will do. As far as “narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed” goes, I’ve met some men who fit that bill and they weren’t necessarily all that bright. Frankly, when I’ve tried to date men who are less intelligent, it doesn’t work because they tend to feel inadequate. The best relationship I’ve had was with a guy who was brilliant and fascinating to talk to. He was also kind and responsible. If I was lucky enough to find a man like that again, I’d want to marry him in a heartbeat.
Kimberly says
I LOVE this post…
I have been very happy with loving, sweet and relationship oriented men. And miserable with highly intelligent, moody etc. men…. What women don’t understand is the competitiveness that exists between two people that have many of the qualities Evan listed.
Believe me…you will NOT feel loved if the man in your life is always trying to “one up” you. Rather…you need someone who is secure, smart and confident in what he does that will LOVE and SUPPORT you in all your brilliance….Amazing wise advice Evan…much love….
Ileana says
Yet another great post. Even if i agree with you on what you said about the PROs and CONs about being in a relationship with a smart man, i have the feeling that the ‘smartness’ concept you use is rather fuzzy (and probably that’s why many people who commented here see a different side of the issue)
Intelligence is so complex, so fluid, that you simply cant put it in a box and expect it to fit only into that one particular box. Some people are book smart, others are street smart. Others are simply wise. Some are good with math/logic, but lack social skills. Some are good with languages, but can’t read maps. And the list goes on.
You can’t claim Einstein was smarter than Mozart or Jane Austen. You can’t compare Newton, Dickens, Bach, Kant, Picasso, Spielberg, Bill Gates etc to eachother.
Even psychologists agree with the fact that IQ tests are not that reliable, because there are so many other traits that are not taken into account.
As long as you are compatible and can have interesting conversations, is the MENSA score really that important?
eric says
You are exactly the kind of person I find attractive. Someone who understands that there are countless flavors of giftedness, and that even the most incandescently brilliant people are as dull as a household light bulb in most areas.
They possess a special radiance, but it only pierces through the atmosphere when it’s focused entirely through the narrow lense of their talents, which are limited in scope and only allow them to scan a limited portion of the sky.
No matter how luminous a person is, they can never light up the whole sky.
People who realize this have a profoundly attractive perspective. They understand that we are a species that possesses innumerable facets. Everyone is a searchlight in a special few, a light bulb in most, and a dim candle in some.
People who realize this are gifted with a grounding humility that prevents them from letting their heads fill up with the hot air of egotism, which raises us above others in a vessel of condescension.
Go you, and everyone like you. If everyone was like this, the world would be a far sexier place.
Goldie says
@ Ruby:
“Frankly, when I’ve tried to date men who are less intelligent, it doesn’t work because they tend to feel inadequate.”
Agree, I’ve tried it a few times too. Poor guys act so intimidated and out of their depth, I have no choice but to end their misery by telling them this isn’t going to work. Then a few weeks down the road, they’re perfectly happy with someone who’s in their league intellectually. They’re nice guys and deserve to be happy, you know?
@ Evan #16, point taken. Can I rephrase and say that, if life is high school (come on, we all know it is), that Stacey and I had assumed that you were talking about women wanting to date geeks, when in fact your post was about women wanting to date preppy kids?
Ruby says
Also, when I think of my happily married friends, not one of them married someone who wasn’t their intellectual equal. Not smarter, not less smart, but similar.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Ruby – nobody said to do otherwise. It’s women who need men who are Taller. Smarter. Richer. And if he’s an inch shorter or doesn’t have a masters degree, he’s out. That’s the dangerous phenomenon. Nowhere did you hear me to tell a woman to marry a man who was “less than”, but rather, marry a guy who has a higher emotional IQ – which is a greater predictor of relationship success than a regular IQ.
Dana says
Not all of us. I’m a very smart woman; I need a very smart guy. Not smarter. And I don’t care about weighing out exactly where we fall on IQ; it’s about feeling that you have an equal, which takes a whole bunch of elements into account beyond intelligence. Richer, taller, degrees — god, who cares. Give me a great guy who gets the joke.
Robyn says
As the saying goes, “there’s a fine line between genius and insanity”.
Or as I like to put it, “cute & clever” is good but “cute & clever & crazy/kooky” is not.
I’ve know many exceptionally intelligent people over the years (from a wide sample that includes family members, friends, lovers and colleagues).
Some of them were “human” and could relate to the rest of the world (ie: had emotional IQ to go with their exceptional brains). They were/are abolutely fantastic people to know and be with.
But there were others that could barely conduct a conversation and/or were totally self-absorbed with themselves/their research projects and/or considered anyone less intelligent than themselves to be 4th class citizens – almost disabled at an emotional or personality level – which does NOT make for a great partner at all.
It takes more to make a great partner than having high IQ scores / oodles of degrees & diploma’s / MENSA membership / fat salary. Unfortunately the really essential factors (like “EQ”, attitude, ethics, personality) are way harder to quantify or measure than IQ or salary numbers on a W2.
Honey says
My husband Jake is in Mensa, and he has EVERY SINGLE NEGATIVE QUALITY you describe. And, to top it all off, he’s STILL not as smart as me! (I’m in Mensa, too). What makes it work is that:
(1) I am a female raised in the South (so I have all the stereotypical emotional intelligence of a woman as well as life experience in a non-confrontational culture),
(2) We agree on a variety of other issues that only really small subsets of the population do (atheist, vegetarian, not wanting kids, etc.)
If it weren’t for that, living with him would be intolerable. Still is, sometimes. While I am happy with him in a way that I couldn’t be with someone who wasn’t my “equal,” if I had known 10 years ago what I know now about long-term relationships, I would have married someone in the 80th percentile long, long ago…
astrid7 says
Thank you for sharing. This seals all the flying questions / arguments in my head.
Zann says
A couple of points I’d like to make. I think the terms “smart” and “intelligent” and even “rich” are so subjective and open to so many different interpretations that they’re not really useful in this dialogue. It hit me when Bill Clinton’s name came up. In my opinion, Bill Clinton is the perfect example of this phenomenon. He IS a very smart, informed, shoot-from-the-hip man. He’s got charisma, incredible people skills, and is “book-smart,” as well. He’s also capable of being manipulative because he reads people well and plays to their sweet spots. Not surprisingly, he’s a politician and a chronic philanderer. I don’t think that’s ever been any big secret to anyone who knows him — especially not to Hillary. But is Bill Clinton wise with his talents? Not so much, much of the time, even though he continues to be sought after and is now extremely wealthy. Does he always consider the other person before jumping into a situation in order to gratify himself? Don’t think so. So, he’s likely emotionally immature and grossly impulsive. He acts now because it feels good and will deal with the repercussions later. To a Type-B, this seems like a man who acts very unwisely. But to a Type-A, (male or female) he’s an attractive challenge. My point is that I think what we’re talking about here — in addition to scholastic intelligence and emotional intelligence — is charisma, the power to attract & entertain & seduce. Also know as great social skills. I’ve known many extremely educated & truly intelligent men & women who were painfully socially awkward, shy, moody, introverted. I might find their brains impressive and attractive, but not as much as I find the extrovert irresistable. More than the brainy guy, I’m drawn to the guy who makes me laugh, who talks a blue streak, knows a lot about many things, or if he doesn’t, he’s a really good Bullsh*tter. He’s sexy because he’s confident and can think on his feet. And he’s almost unfailingly very, very hands-on, very affectionate & tactile. What’s not to love? This is the guy who has drawn me in my whole adult life (and I’m frickin 59), and he still does. I can spot him a mile away. I know he’s a dead end for me, because he loves himself way more than he can ever love me (or anyone else.) It’s not personal, it’s who he is. His talents have allowed him the luxury of a neverending supply of people who want to know him and hang with him. But he’s not Relationship material & he never will be. He may have married, several times, he might have kids, even grandkids. But he doesn’t have staying power, the patience, or the emotional maturity (there, I’ve said it) to be a long-haul guy. He doesn’t like to sacrifice or to sit still and look at the long-term goal. I guess the extreme end of this is the narcissist, but more often he’s the guy who is warm and seductive and entertaining, and soooooooooo smart. He’s a guy’s guy and a ladies’ man. There are men my age who still embody these characteristics, although they’ve mellowed and their prowess is somewhat limited due to aging. But it’s a head thing, and they don’t lose it, and I still find them (almost) irresistable. Is that because I’m also smart, funny, entertaining, informed & I just want to cuddle up to another me? Or is it because this particular type of Alpha Extrovert is irresistable to almost everyone. Would you rather engage over a nice glass of wine with Bill Clinton…. or Harry Reid? (And forget GWB — he’s not even in the ballpark here; he’s as dumb as dirt and too shallow to care.) I have never found long-term happiness with the Extrovert, and yet I’m still attracted..but it’s an informed and knowing attraction, if that makes any difference. I may be older but I can still be a magical thinker. And extremely single.
Skiwi says
Thank you for your words of wisdom on the subject of falling for the alpha extrovert. I’m starting to think it’s a curse. I have been involved with a man whose IQ is around 140 and is brilliant in every way, for 6 years now, and though it took years to achieve, he now admits he loves me. My IQ is not in the brilliant realm (though I am highly intelligent in some areas) yet he does seem to find me fascinating, even though he is certainly more knowledgeable than I on almost every subject. I am able to challenge him at times. But sometimes I try his patience (and he constantly tries mine!) because I have such a complicated disaster of a personal life and he has spent years offering me valuable advice (“the kind other people pay him hundreds an hour for…”), forcing me to look at the big picture, but I’m fighting to protect my children and his art of war strategies leave me cold as a mother. I don’t see how I can treat my children like chess pieces, so that I can live a more comfortable life elsewhere. So we are an impasse there. He believes everything should be rational, and I’m trying to get him to somehow see that when it’s the kind of love one has for their children, sometimes we must stand and fight no matter how impossible the situation, when any “rational” person would admit defeat.
I doubt either of us will ever convince the other there, but in a few years my kids will be adult and this fundamental difference of philosophy shouldn’t be so much of an issue. However, the same applies to our relationship (I believe love is all you need; he has long denied it’s existence..until now.)
I adore him, and I actually believe he adores me, in his own way…when I can get him out of his head for a bit. Actually the problem is more getting anything more than text messages and phone calls from him.
Because he is so brilliant, and loves helping those he cares for, and there is always a friend in need, and is frequently flying around the world for work, he rarely finds time to meet in person. Not such a big deal for him apparently, with his amazing memory, he says for long periods of time they sustain him. But a less highly evolved life form such as myself needs a physical presence more regularly.
He used to tell me he was incapable of love and his work in science is his life, and in addition he worked for the government (sudden trips to the Pentagon, and war torn countries, that he could not give details about) and thus even if he wanted to, he wasn’t permitted any commitments (aka “liabilities”).
However now he does confess to loving me, when cornered…. and it seems that he no longer does the government work. But he is always working on something, a dizzying number of projects simultaneously. I am fascinated by all that he does, I even don’t mind listening to him ramble on about topics I have no understanding of, because I love his passion and I’m in awe of his knowledge (and I do sometimes kid him that he’s like Leonard and Sheldon rolled into one, but that despite having a masters degree, I often feel like Penny around him. Maybe I enjoy the novelty of this as I’m more accustomed to men being intimidated by my intelligence?).
I have tried many times to find a replacement because he refuses to commit to a future together, but after him no other man compares. I have never experienced such intensity with anyone before or since. But now, even when I find a man who adores me and wants to commit, who panders to my every desire and wants to be with me 24/7; I find their conversation like watching grass grow, or having a fly buzzing around me.
(At the same time I worry that this is how my brilliant guy feels about me!)
I tried so hard to move on last time he mysteriously vanished on one of his government missions…when he told me he couldn’t say whether or not he’d be back, or when, and that I should find somebody else. He was gone for over a year, but did come back… and though I found somebody else, he seems as incapable of letting me go as I am of him.
I’m going out of my mind.
I would marry him tomorrow if I could, (even though I too vowed never again). but I also fear him a little… know that he is easily capable of manipulating me, and he can be cold as ice (though not with me, at least not yet, but he’s warned me what he’s capable of, tries to convince me I should leave because one day he is afraid he will hurt me). I’m so tormented by him. Cannot get over him, can’t find the will to leave him, but when I tell him I need us to be together, he seems confused, as if the very idea is alien to him (though he was married twice and will never do that again). I don’t need a ring. Just need him in my life. He just smiles and says we’ll be together in the next life !!!!
He’s Indian and has a more eastern philosophy, sometimes feels like I’m in love with Ghandi… or a modern day Confuscious.
I feel like a character in Wuthering Heights, sometimes wonder if the conflict between our desire for each other and his ridiculous work schedule which means sometimes months go by without seeing each other, might actually drive me mad!
At least I have my genius/doctor to coldly reassure me it’s impossible to die from a broken heart….
The only solution I think is for me to escape the situation and return to my country, and be far away, with family.
Maybe I too will spend the rest of my life alone because work will always be his priority, and nobody else compares to him. Although he says he will one day retire so I don’t understand why he can’t at least agree to live together then.
I guess many of these guys just don’t require companionship on a daily basis, and really treasure their bachelor status. And seem to become commitment phobic.
Anyway I’m happy to at least have found others who are attracted to these types, because nobody I know gets it (many people have told me I light up when I speak of him, that it’s obvious I love him even when I’ve denied it, but when I describe the relationship they look at me like I’ve lost my mind… that I shouldn’t walk away, I should run).
Sometimes I think this is comparable to a drug addiction! But I have yet to find a 12 step program that can help me!
I apologize for venting at such length… and needless to say I am not Mensa material, just one of the poor tortured souls that a brilliant man desires, has spent years taming, but refuses to keep.
Peter says
The bell curve for men spreads wider than for women on every measure. There are more clever men than clever women just as there are more stupid men than stupid women. A taller, cleverer man than herself is not an impossible requirement. However, 5′ 11″ with an IQ (for what its worth) of 140 might be. And what about a 5′ man with and IQ of 160 (although most tests stop at 140 so don’t believe him if he says 160)? I think that 5′ will be more improtant for most women than an IQ of 160.
Zaq says
I’m not buying into this moody,workaholic, egomaniac stuff. Everyone is different. I do think that a very intelligent man is likely to be opinionated and a little arrogant though. When you are right most of the time that is fairly inevitable.
I agree with Permanentguest and Ruby. A man will feel insecure with someone significantly more intelligent than him. This is borne out by studies that show that in contrast to male attractiveness, female attractiveness falls with increasing IQ.
The requirement for a man of at least equal intelligence sounds reasonable. Unfortunately it isn’t. Men of (practical) high intelligence are in high demand from all women. Women will need to have higher levels of physical attractiveness to compete with the other women, because their intelligence holds less weight for the men they are interested in.
It seems to me that women with significantly above average intelligence, but very average looks, are in the worst possible situation. They find it hard to respect less intelligent men, but they have few options other than perhaps a beta “Sheldon”
sarahrahrah! says
Zac, I disagree with your conclusion that intelligence is automatically a detriment to women in dating. According to a British study ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9453842/Playful-people-more-attractive.html ) , the quality of playfulness is the most sought after quality in a potential mate, for women and men alike. That means that smart females can use their intelligence to create fun, games and humor in their relationships.
Joek says
But it’s not their intelligence itself that’s attractive – it’s the playfulness – the FUN factor.
So unless an intelligent woman realizes this, and is willing to foster it, she’s at a disadvantage relative to the less-intelligent but fun gal that she’s competing with.
MH says
That’s interesting! I have an IQ in the top 1% of the country, I’ve not had a date in many years but oddly I am told I am attractive often. I recently had a stranger tell me so and run off.
So I am a little confused by the situation, which is why I read the posts on here.
The last man I was involved with was intelligent and turned out to be a narcissist. He fits the description above exactly!
He refused to date me and strung me along for years, the reason he eventually gave… I was too fun.
He must be a glitch in the matrix.
Helen says
Um, Evan… doesn’t your own example negate your point?
You’re a smartie. 🙂 You’re in MENSA. How can you expect any of us to believe that you’re a bad catch if your wife is happy and content with you?
And if ONE good brilliant guy exists, why shouldn’t many more? I’m married to a sweetheart who is smarter than me, too. At work, I’m surrounded by loveable men who are smarter than or equal in intelligence to me. As Goldie said, there isn’t a one-to-one correlation between intelligence and bad relational traits. As for social awkwardness, which IS associated with intelligence: I don’t see that as a dealbreaker. There are far worse things a person could be.
Evan Marc Katz says
I hate to say this, Helen, but I’m somewhat of an anomaly. A very driven guy who owns his own business, makes good money, and prioritizes family above all? A guy who’s off on Fridays and home at 6pm every day? A guy who is naturally sensitive, overcommunicates like a woman, and spends 4 hours a day on the phone talking to women and listening to their needs?
I’m not the only guy in the world who’s like this, but I’m somewhat unusual. Most guys with my demographics aren’t as sensitive and self-aware. And if you spend your whole life holding out for an anomaly, you might spend a lot of time alone.
It would be like a man holding out for a supermodel/Rhodes Scholar because he knows a few. That leaves out a lot of quality women, don’t you think?
(And no, I didn’t mean to compare myself to a supermodel/Rhodes Scholar…that was incidental, to make my point).
The bigger picture is that there are plenty of smart men who aren’t necessarily smarter, successful men who aren’t necessarily rich, cute guys who aren’t necessarily gorgeous…and you should be giving those guys a chance. Are we cool?
JB says
To be totally honest, that just sounds like narcissistic BS to me. With this response as context, the whole blog post sounds a lot like a huge self-righteous ego boost too, really. “Hey, most intelligent guys are this way, but I’m totally not, I’m way more awesome than them!” See what I mean?
There’s plenty of intelligent men that aren’t ego maniacs with borderline personality disorders, and I can certainly confirm that you’re not an anomaly (if you’re all of the qualities you claim to be). No stable, well-adjusted woman actively seeks out a narcissist that can’t or won’t compromise or treat them with respect. Maybe those women who do prefer men who won’t treat them as equals need a healthy dose of self-respect more than anything.
helene says
I get why Evan suggests that smart women should consider dating men of more average intelligence (there are more of them, its less confrontational etc…) but my question is, how do you make it work? I have tried dating these men but generally I find a)they don’t “get” my jokes b) they don’t entirely “get” me (although they are sort of adoringly in awe) and c)they repeatedly exhibit poor judgement because they’re not that smart and don’t seem to think things through properly, and this leads me to lose respect for them. Compared to that, I think I’d rather deal with arrogant and self obsessed!
Evan Marc Katz says
Actually, Helene, I didn’t say men of average intelligence. I said men who are not in the 98th percentile. That leaves, oh, everyone from 70-98th percentile available to you. My problem isn’t with smart men. My problem is with smart women who think that only men who are SMARTER are eligible. You can’t date “up” in every category, and, if you do, you’ll discover that those super impressive men aren’t always a great bet for long-term commitment.
missy says
I have read this blog, and I literally LMBAO!! I have date the street smart guy to the corporate exce.. what I can tell you is this, I have to center myself around somebody who can engage in an intelligent conversation. I’m sorry smart, intelligent people don’t intimidate me one bit. I have been a around a number of people who can’t even tell you what day of the week it is. The man I’m seeing is now is not only smarter than me, but is socially gracious and down to earth. He can engage with highest of people to lowest, it’s a called being well rounded. I would not have it any other way. Someone who is socially and intellectual inept. DEAL BREAKER!!! SORRY
Ellen says
One final comment: Goldie, Mensa is no big deal. Experts have identified at least 7 different types of intelligence, including musical and “body”, i.e., athletes. Imo emotional intelligence tops the list given the sway of ego in the world today. High IQ people, and I am on the cusp, should be considered mental athletes only- they arrive at the answer a few minutes/hrs. before everyone else. Big fu&king deal doll!
And creative types are seductive, but the correlation between genius and neuroticism is now well established I think.
Do some research and you’ll learn the best leaders/CEOs have average-high IQs, went to only ok colleges, but were highly motivated for very personal reasons. Barbra Streisand felt compelled to succeed because of a stepfather’s neglect, etc.
Humans have this unnatural need to differentiate themselves, to be different, at all costs. Let’s seek oneness, unity, not stress how very different we are.
Androgynous says
Hi Zap
Don’t know what you mean when you say women are free to “choose” who they mate with and tend to pick “winners” since they are more invested in their pregnancies. Aren’t you aware that it is only a recent phenomenon (in the context of human history) that women were allowed to choose their mates ? And only in modern anglo “socially advanced” societies. At late as the turn of the century, women had to put up with who their families picked out for them. If they had any choice at all, it was limited to a shortlist her family picked out for her. More often than not, even her family did not have a choice in the matter. The village chief, warlord, duke etc would have a say in it. Back in caveman days, a female would often be forcibly taken, or had to mate with the male whose territory she wandered into looking for food.
If left to their own devices, the female reproductive strategy (as evidenced by primate studies and anthropological studies) would be to mate with a variety of males, some “superior” and dominant and others which are most decidedly not. Scientists can only speculate as to the reasons, where they relate to primates closely related to humans (eg chimps). The speculation is that females mate with a variety of males to confuse paternity – so males (irrespective of their position in the tribe) would not harm their children if there was a chance those children could be biologically theirs. Another speculation is that females “hedge their bets”. Yes, even weak inferior males can rise up the ranks since the superior ones tend to get challenged at lot and often ended up dead or seriously wounded/maimed. Then again, maybe its the variety that is the heart of the matter here. Weak inferior males may have recessive genes from superior dominant ancestors, or have politically powerful relatives.
Sure women these days tend to be fussy but that is mainly because she is now confined to mating only with one male (or one at a time at least). The same may be said of men.
Ashley Butler says
Good article I needed to read that.
Quinn says
I’m not going to lie. The man you just described is the man of my dreams.
Why is being well read, opinionated, and conversationalist a bad thing? I love men like this. We connect on much deeper levels. Anything less would be mundane and boring. I love discussing everything but the weather and dancing with the damn stars. And you know what? Im not ashamed of it.
Sure, people just love to say you’re a snob, stuck up etc just because you enjoy intellectual pursuits but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Some people chase women, some chase men, some chase belonging but I chase everything that is knowledge. If I can’t learn something from talking to someone then whats the point? No, I seriously don’t get it.
My brain is a collector of information. Its always scanning for something new and it never cuts off. Am I smarter than the average person? Absolutely not. But while they’re off doing whatever it is that they are doing Im usually somewhere consuming knowledge. I refused to be seen as difficult because I like informed about everything.
If I don’t know something I literally look it up. I don’t care what it is. Its how my brain works. Though, I agree with you. Most people don’t like people like that. My current boyfriend accused me of being a know-it-all because I like to discuss abstract thoughts. In my head I think: “How can one not?” It boggles my mind.
Yes, I agree. Men like this are very acquired tastes. I’d know because I’m a cold, logical woman. Men can’t stand it. Surprisingly cold logical men appreciate it. I find that I’m more apt to warm up to someone when I can discuss “weighty” issues with them.
I will admit though that there is a fine line and if you don’t walk it the right way you can seem really egotistical. When in mixed company I usually just shut down because most people aren’t talking about anything important. Is that a little arrogant of me to think that? Sure, but its also quite arrogant for people to attach negative views to people who prefer this style of communication.
While Im still in college I will nod to the fact that I will probably turn into a workaholic. Though being a workaholic is defined by other people as being such. Why can’t work also be a hobby? Plus, I couldn’t imagine leaving things undone and just going home. I’d probably work at home in the bed right next to my partner who is also working on work. Though I do slow down from time to time. So a person that can’t ever stop is a no-no.
I agree with Evan though. If you’re not turned on by the idea of this then run away very very fast. Very fast.
Matt says
I’m an ivy league educated rocket scientist with a 132 IQ and a long fancy resume. I can assure you that if you’re still in college, you haven’t even been alive long enough to become particularly smart even in academic areas. But most of human knowledge isn’t in the ivory tower in the first place.
You sound like a cross between a hipster and a Dunning-Kruger narcissistic egomaniac careerist. I’ve dated many brilliant, intellectual women and they all had much more down to earth personalities and greater respect for other areas of life and society than you seem to have.
Gina says
Evan,
I just wanted to let you know that I have been reading your blog for over a year now and following your sage advice. At the beginning of this year, I listened to you and walked away from a relationship that had no future, even though it broke my heart to do so. As frustrating as online dating is, I listened to you and kept at it. Ten months later, I am now in an amazing relationship with a wonderful man who behaves exactly the way in which you said a man behaves who genuinely cares for a woman. Thank you so much for being the voice of reason and providing such sound advice. Keep up the good work! You are the best!
Greg says
Hey Androgynous 34
There is no factual basis for your post. Women were not forcibly married in all cultures. The common man did not have the power to force marriage upon any woman. In some cultures men had to ask permission to marry a woman. Some cultures had this in place so that they could help screen potential candidates. Nowadays women can be more selective. Either way I think the likelihood that a woman will be be in a bad or dangerous relationship has remained relatively constant throughout history. In the old days as you say women were forced into bad or even abusive relationships. Now some women choose to be in them due to emotional or psychological factors. I think women are fussy and justifiably so because a bad choice of mate likely will be more detrimental to a woman.
adk says
#35 Quinn, I feel like you are missing something. Many people have something to teach, not just “cold, hard knowledge.” If you open yourself up on the emotional level, you might have more to learn, even at social gatherings “where no one is talking about anything interesting.” Each person is a unique human being with fascinating background and thoughts on life, even if it’s not in an encyclopedia. I always have found — especially in dating — that I can learn something from everyone’s story.
Goldie says
@ Quinn: “I’m a cold, logical woman. Men can’t stand it.”
College guys, maybe, can’t stand it, but men will really love it — when you’re married to them. A logical argument, where you show that you can be convinced to agree with the other side if they present their own compelling logical argument, beats screaming, breaking dishes, crying, or administering the silent treatment in order to get your way, every single time. My ex and I used to get into emotional arguments about things. Then I learned to answer in a calm voice and present him with logical reasoning, and I could tell he liked it. Sometimes it even helped him see things from my perspective. Too bad our marriage was already falling apart by then. I wish I’d learned it sooner.
Before anyone says that there are other ways to argue, like telling your opponent how you feel: “when you just said we should use our life savings to buy a boat, it really hurt me deep inside and made me feel insecure…” – nah. In my experience, this doesn’t work on guys. They like logic, and dismiss the touchy-feely stuff as another case of the woman being irrational.
Basically, from what I’ve seen, by the time men enter adulthood, most of them are already biased against women. They expect us to be irrational creatures who go through life guided entirely by their feelings, and who cannot understand logic. When they see that it is not the case, they are relieved.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Goldie – Wonderful point about logical women. In my 20’s, I looked for the smartest woman I could date. In my 30’s, I was just looking for the sanest.
Saint Stephen says
@Quinn Said: (#35)
Sure, people just love to say you’re a snob, stuck up etc just because you enjoy intellectual pursuits but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Some people chase women, some chase men, some chase belonging but I chase everything that is knowledge. If I can’t learn something from talking to someone then whats the point? No, I seriously don’t get it.
If you date a clergy man you will learn something new. If you meet a burglar you will learn something new. If you talk to a combat veteran you learn something new. No matter how highly intellectual you are – people you meet will always know something that you don’t. Do you think your biblical knowledge would be on par with a clergy man who’s a bible scholar? And if that clergy man is looking to date or marry his equal in knowledge-wise he’d be deliberately or unconsciously eliminating more than 80% of women from his dating pool without factoring compatibility and emotional maturity.
And why do you consider yourself highly intellectual if you only wanna discuss topics that interests you? I consider people as highly intellectuals if they can carry on a descent conversation on topics they have no interest in. I have an uncle who’s a college professor, he talks endlessly on topics that interest him. OTOH my late elder bro was just a college grad but he could weigh in on virtually any topic being discussed. Which of them do you think women would want to be around? Which of them do you think has more dating options?
Have you ever seen love before? Have you ever seen emotion before? Why do you believe they exist? because people feel them? I’d be curious to see how you can use logic to describe/explain emotion and love.
Furthermore, what kinda relationship do you think you would have when cold hard logic meets cold hard logic? A loveless marriage/relationship is what you are setting yourself up for.
Sayanta says
Goldie and Evan
I agree that logical reasoning is great. But feelings and emotions are a big part of being human, and seen as ‘bad’ in a male-dominated society. I feel (god, there I go using that ugly word) that suppressing a natural urge to expressing emotion equals inauthenticity. Assuming you are- as I am- a feelings- oriented woman… So are we never supposed to cry in front of men? Get angry? Just because men hate emotions doesn’t make them right.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sayanta – You’re too smart to turn this into a black and white issue. No one said that you should have NO feelings or NEVER cry in front of men. You see why I get frustrated on this message board? Because what I’m saying and what you’re hearing are two entirely different things.
What Goldie and I said is that men appreciate women who have a firm grasp on reality and can listen to reason, instead of letting potentially irrational emotions predominate.
If I have a conversation with an ex on Facebook, my wife wouldn’t think anything of it. An emotional woman who’s been hurt before might start giving me the third degree.
Men REALLY appreciate when we can discuss things with you and have you accept our answers and our apologies, instead of turning every emotion you feel into some referendum about our future. Does my wife cry from time to time? Of course she does. But she never flies off the handle at me – and that’s why I’m married to her.
Goldie says
I just spoke from experience. I was shocked the first time I saw it in action. For the first time in years, I was able to get a grown man to stop yelling and start listening to me in the middle of a heated argument. It was like magic. That was the only thing I said — I tried it, it works, the end. My point was actually to tell Quinn that being a cold, logical woman isn’t all bad.
Sayanta says
Point taken — I guess I just know so many men completely cut off from their emotions that this just hit a sore spot with me
Evan Marc Katz says
And this is also why “feeling” messages, as taught by some other relationship experts, are very limited in their ability to connect with men. While no man wants to be the cause of your tears, we also don’t like having our lives hijacked by every feeling that comes up. Highly sensitive people – both men and women – are extremely difficult to date.
Ray says
[email protected]
You say you are ‘cold and logical’ because you enjoy intellectual pursuits. I don’t consider that cold or logical at all.
Cold is being basically dead to your own emotional state and the emotional state of others.
Logical (to me) means being able to pull apart the ’emotional’ from the ‘rational’… and it isn’t a quality only or even mainly men possess.
If you feel connected to a man through your mutual intellect and ability to discuss a wide range of topics, then that seems like a good start!
Just like some people like bike riding and jogging with their partner. Are they supposed to give up looking for someone who likes to bike ride or jog? Maybe, if you run ultra-marathons… it is enough to expect one’s partner cheer you at the finish line.
Maybe that is the point Evan is making. One doesn’t need the equivalent of an ultramarathoner (ie super intellect) to be happy.
nathan says
“Men REALLY appreciate when we can discuss things with you and have you accept our answers and our apologies, instead of turning every emotion you feel into some referendum about our future.” Yes, I totally agree with this point!
Also, I think everyone might do well to study up on Emotional Intelligence. Daniel Goleman wrote a best selling book about it several years ago, and in a lot of ways, the kind of healthy communication that people seem to crave isn’t “cold and logical,” nor “overly emotional,” but really a blend of everything human in a way that reaches the particular person.
Ray says
[email protected]
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman is a fabulous book. The two qualities most necessary for Emotional Intelligence? Empathy and ability to delay gratification…. interestingly, these are qualities that can be tested at a very young age too. Fascinating book.
I’ve also read from some very good sources, that CEOs tend to have some of the lowest emotional intelligence among the pool of employees. One wonders if the qualities necessary to be a CEO require the opposite traits. Hmmm… Some food for thought.
henriette says
Many of you commenters are staring at the trees, missing the forest of Evan’s piece. Basically, he’s saying that we should re-examine our some of our rigid views of what we can and cannot find sexy. We should never accept man who is not kind, thoughtful or honourable. But some guys who are not conventionally good looking can become devastatingly attractive once we get to know them. And we can find real wisdom in some fellows who aren’t bright in the way we thought we needed. Is that really so hard to swallow?
mellie charnalia says
TOTALLY on point!!! I used to look for super smart, ambitious, talkative guys but I’m finding that I’m sort of running away from that now. Emotional intelligence/capacity is what I’m looking for. But even then, I’m not expecting a man to act like my girlfriends (I used to!). So, I agree with the part about being rational and logical (and I used to get pissed off when I read that). Often I think when women react to men emotionally, it’s because they’re making some meaning out of something that the man didn’t intend at all. We are remembering old stuff from childhood or abusive/neglectful relationships. I think there’s a difference between a man who’s emotionally immature/illiterate/abusive/unavailable and a man who’s just not into analyzing/processing every emotion. Sometimes we may mistakenly think the latter is the former….? Granted, that difference can be hard to tell sometimes :-).
Lucy says
Hi Evan
I am very intelligent, having done Law at an Ivy League university. So did my ex boyfriend (who was a very big alpha male). One of the problems we had was exactly as you mentioned – the intellectual attraction sparks too easily turning to tension as we are both strong willed and opinionated and excellent at arguing a point. He said it was one of the things that turned him off me. I was sad because on the one hand, smart guys seem to like smart girls, but on the other, if I actually ACT smart, giving my opinions and men don’t like me (or perhaps alpha males just don’t like me as I had a bad habit of only dating smart alphas who impressed me). I have the flaws of ‘smart’ women that you listed: opinionated, know it all, moody, sensitive, but very very in touch with my emotions – not cold and heartless. My question is, if ‘smart’ people are so difficult to date, and sensitive people are difficult to date, this pretty much renders me a horrible partner, no? How do I overcome the flaws that come with having too much head and too much heart? Do I need to get a lot of therapy just to be acceptable as a partner? I have friends who think I’m great and dateable, and people think I’m generally a great person, but I now feel discouraged, thinking that I am a dating “bad bet” and destined not to get married because of my smart/sensitive flaws (I’m 26 and single).
mgm531 says
@Lucy 45
“I have the flaws of ‘smart’ women that you listed: opinionated, know it all, moody, sensitive”
“How do I overcome the flaws that come with having too much head and too much heart?”
Well, you can start by not being so opinionated and accept that another person’s opinion may have as much validity (or more even so) than your own. Stop acting like a know it all because, quite frankly, at age 26 you haven’t lived/experienced life enough to ‘know it all’. And while it’s okay to be sensitive it’s not generally attractive to be overly sensitive and look for negative connotations in otherwise innocent or innocuous things people may say to you. And lastly being moody may be a cute quirk when you’re in your 20’s, but as you get older you may find that most people feel that moodiness is just a sign of emotional immaturity.
Lucy says
It seems like I have to date a beta because alphas find my challenging their intellectual arguments on X issue with my own take on the issue/pointing out the weaknesses of their points is frustrating. Regardless, I LOVE to learn from alphas and find their discussion stimulating, though often arrogant. However, I feel angry to think that if I want to be around such smart alphas and not get dumped is to morph into a lady who always nods agreeably to his opinions and doesn’t ever really critically examine them and threaten his ego. They want me to be smart but always defer to their intellectual/decision making power. I think I would have a hard time doing this, as it goes against my natural personality. Yet, with betas, I have not found one which stokes my intellectual fire and makes me feel like I learn from them in the same way. Are there betas like this out there and I just haven’t found them because alphas seems to hunt me down as they look for smart, accomplished and above average attractive young women such as myself?
Russell says
The hat may not fit you, but then it might, so I will tell of my experiences with women who describe themselves as you do.
All too often, those intellectual discussions always seem like a chess match, or a battle of wits. They almost never felt like just an enjoyable discussion, like I have with guy friends where we discuss serious stuff.
My ex did this. And I can’t count the number of times she would take other’s people’s side against me in debates, and I would then come back with proof that I had been right. I never gloated, and never rubbed it in her nose after showing her the proof. Yet I was always the bad guy. What it came down to was that she just had this fear of being overshadowed by her man. She had a fear of being run over, of being relegated to the kitchen. So her way of dealing with that fear was to always be combative in a subtle, passive aggressive way. I talked with her about it, and she was in complete denial about it. She wouldn’t even admit that she never, or rarely took my side. I am not saying this is what you do, but I can tell you this…and maybe Evan will agree…we men do NOT want to argue with our woman. We want an easy going relationship without added drama. Life puts enough drama into your life without adding to it. Read that as stress. We don’t like stress when it isn’t necessary.
Not all men love to debate. I love to. However, I don’t like combative debates. Occasionally may be Ok, but it is stressful so too much is not going to be enjoyable. I like debates where when there is a disagreement, nobody feels like they have to convince the other person. We simply look it up online to see if we can find something to settle the disagreement, and then we just move on without any gloating. I don’t gloat. I don’t like it when the other person does it.
Many women I have debated with are not good debaters. They are often very intelligent, but they don’t handle disagreements well. They seem to feel that if the other person isn’t willing to accept their point of view, they don’t respect her and see her as inferior. I do not ever see the other person as inferior, but at the same time, if I have researched something, or believe my opinion to be right, I don’t concede until you prove your point. I can agree to disagree, but this never seems to be good enough with most of the women I have had these kinds of conversations with. Also, if he/she proves me wrong, I admit that I was wrong, and become interested in learning more about that subject. Not one single time has a woman said to me, “Hey, you were right and I was wrong.” Not one single time. My belief is that has to do with how women often simply carry with them the belief that men see them as inferior, so in their mind, admitting they were wrong will cause him to gloat, and confirm in his mind that she is inferior.
I think both people, in a relationship, should make it a point to tell the other person that they were right, when they were right.
I do know from hearing the same thing from many men that they simply don’t want any form of competition between them and their woman. Why is it so hard for women to understand that we men see the majority of our life as a competition. We have competed our entire lives. We want something different with our woman. Think of it like a sailing ship sailing around the world, braving all manner of hazards at sea, but then pulling into a port. In port, you want calm, and fun, and pleasure…not more storms and danger. That is how many men see a relationship. It is supposed to be our home port. It isn’t that we want you to act dumb, or inferior. Go do battle with your friends like we do. We don’t really want to debate with you. We don’t want to compete with you. Isn’t that easy to understand?
Ria says
Funnily enough, one of the dreams women have is to have a guy Evan described. Which isn ´t news. But here comes the catch – in the end of all the list of the characteristics Evan described, they secretly wish to add one tiny characteristic bit:”…and loves me, and is dedicated and commited to me (against all odds of his nature) forever.”
Which never happens, because that isn ´t in his make up and should you look deep down and examine how you really feel, you know that you arent a match, but you dont like this feeling like you are “not good enough.” So we want to be exception of the rule and “win him” anyway. Another hard work less paid…cos sadly, when you cant afford Ferrari, you need to drive more affordable for your budget.
As for Evan describing himself in this case, my opinion is that he married a very exceptional and special lady, who IS exception of the rule. Not everyone can make a man like this to commit:) it has to be a special lady.
sthrnphoenix says
My entire family is composed of extremely intelligent (97% and up) men and women. Those that are relationship-successful are the ones that focus on emotional intelligence and the qualities that make a person a good partner: loving demeanor, patience, kindness, and responsibility among other characteristics. My father always counseled me not to hide my intelligence, but not to put it on display. Though I value intelligence, I honestly value the other qualities I listed above much more. I got lucky. I’ve been seeing a wonderfully kind, patient, loving, and responsible man that my father, a true genius, loves and called ” a really nice guy” just this morning. He treats me and my children extremely well, fits in with my family, and fits into my life. He’s got a beta personality, but is not a pushover. He’s also smarter than me. That wasn’t something I was looking for or even expected, but it impresses me. It just doesn’t impress me as much as his loving character. Thanks, Evan, for the advice you’ve given that has helped me to meet this wonderful man and maintain a healthy and happy relationship with him.
Sayanta says
Mellie
51, I really like your last point about the difference to keep in mind…I should def keep that in mind
Anonymous says
This blog has really opened my mind to other possibilities. For example, I thought it was normal to want to date a man I considered my equal in looks, education, career etc. After reading the information here, I learned to be more “open minded” and date men that I wouldn’t normally consider.
I ended up dating a man who physically revolted me, had bad breath, a big belly AND wouldn’t pay for dates. (The fake purse grab backfired on me). He was jealous of my career success, as we are in the same field, and constantly questioned me for advice on how to improve his success at work.
When he started asking for sex, I had to end things. I was feeling lower than a prostitute – at least they get paid for “dates” – I was paying for everything!
I repeated some of your ideas to a female life coach, who said that I had a lot of negative associations that she would help me with. She truly believes that I can find a man who I find attractive and consider an equal, and is supporting me in rebuilding my self esteem.
Prior to reading this blog, I didn’t think it was possible for a man to be writing such negative propaganda against women with standards. Evan, your advice neglects the fact that some men are opportunists who will milk a woman for money, career advice, sex, and her self-esteem.
I’ll be careful in future. Thanks for opening my mind.
m says
“It’s women who need men who are Taller. Smarter. Richer.”
As usual, EMK, not the problem.
The problem is men who need women who are shorter, less intelligent, and have less money.
I was Tweeting at a man who tried to poll ladies saying “Would you go out with a man who is shorter?” I explained to him that I had my own empirical basis for concluding that was not the problem. I’m 5’6″, so if I’m wearing 2″ heels for a date — hardly skyscrapers, mind you — the men who have the biggest problem with me are the ones who have lied and said they’re 5’9″ or 5’10”. They get all sulky and insulted.
I’m 5’6″. Hardly a giantess.
He Tweeted back and admitted that yes, if he was 5’10”, he wouldn’t date a woman who was 6′ — so it’s safe for me to conclude he himself is precisely the type I was describing.
It’s all in the framing. The problem is not women who want “more than” — the *real* problem is the men who want their women to be “less than”.
And we don’t talk about that enough.
Happy holidays, everyone. 🙂
Tina says
Yes, of course I want a man who is smarter than me. Just because I should not respect him otherwise. I could not love him too.
But here is the thing: there is no so many smart men out there. As there is no so many really beautiful women.
And the things never are two-dimensional only. The smart women want not only smarter than them men but they also want this man to be a nice, good man, and crazy about them too. You, the men firstly look for beautiful women and then want she to be nice, loving and interesting woman.
And I know, most people are with somebody just because they do not want to be alone, they want to be “normal” people in some relationship because our society is in this way. But the rest of the people (the remarkable ones) want to be with someone similar to them. We all ALWAYS have a choice though.
As for this that the smarter women are selfish and arrogant, that depends on the woman character, not the intellect.
*Sorry for my English but this isn’t my mother language
happy says
the issue is really smart women sometimes will come up as unfeminine and too masculine ->masculine is the kind of energy he is used to debating with on the job
Zaq says
[email protected]
Utter nonsense
I have no problems whatsoever with dating women taller than me. Women are hung up on height, men less so.How many men are going to have problems wanting to date Charlize Theron
It’s the same with money. Women project onto men their own feelings.
Sorry if you cannot stand shorter men, that is YOUR problem
Less wealthy – YOUR problem !
Less intelligent – YOUR problem !
Men, for the most part are not hung up on these issues
Ruby says
M #58
I agree with you, and don’t think your comments are nonsense at all. I’ve certainly encountered men who thought I was too tall for them at 5’8″, even men who were over 6 feet tall. I’ve encountered men who thought i was too smart for them, or not wealthy enough. Of course, men have preferences about these things – I don’t believe it when I hear that men only want someone “cute” and “fun”.
Stacey says
M#58
I concur. Most men like being “more”, nothing wrong with it, thats what the society tells them they should be: strong, provider, leader. And it’s just so much easier to be all that with a petit kindergarden teacher than it is with. 5’7″ lawyer.
Ray says
[email protected]
right on! I’ve dated men who had less education… made less money… were shorter. None of those things are important to me.
I screen for character #1. I do not flash my education around, and the topic of money never comes up (unless they bring it up).
But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone out on a few dates with men who have said “I’d never date a woman who made more than me”, or ditched me after learning my diploma was bigger than theirs. I even had a guy tell me that all his friends told him “whoever has the money has the control”.
So, yea, I”m totally calling BS on this one. Sure, there are women (and men too) who wear their accomplishments around like a tacky sandwich board sign on the street corner… Love ME because of my stuff!! Yea, that IS tacky.
But I’ve definately met men whose own insecurities kept them looking for women they deemed ‘less’ than them. That is the crux of it. As a result, I just generally avoid people for friendships or romance who view every interaction as a power-struggle. Or who define people in terms of labels… ‘alpha’, ‘beta’, ‘feminist’… whatever.
Evan Marc Katz says
m and Ray – what you fail to get, every time you come here to blame men is that it doesn’t matter. This is a site for women. Advice is designed to help those women adjust. What a woman can control is how she deals with men…not how men deal with her. So if you meet shallow men who are intimidated by you? So what? Don’t date him. What you CAN control is getting over that very common female need for a man who is taller, smarter, richer, etc. I’m not making this up. ALL of my clients feel this way. So stop calling BS. It’s not BS. It’s my advice to women. Advice to men can be found somewhere else.
Sheri says
I was left by my narcissistic, self-absorbed, Ph.D. “genius” a couple of years ago, a man who treated me like “less than” and left me dangling for years, although we were officially engaged. The emotional devastation compelled me to became determined to find the opposite kind of man, one who simply adored me and was easy-going. This man, however, cannot spell or speak properly sometimes, does not lift a book or newspaper, has no passions or interests other than his 2 dogs, and has not a lot of friends. He is kind, loving, devoted. BUT. I am so bored, even after 2 years. The conversation is so dull I find my eyes glazing over sometimes. I am no genious, but I feel like I am the leader of this couple. He can’t make a decision without checking with me.
Saint Stephen says
Sheri Said: (#66)
I am no genious, but I feel like I am the leader of this couple. He can’t make a decision without checking with me.
If he’s decisions are going to affect you – why should he make them without checking it with you? Maybe you inherently don’t desire an equal relationship and that’s fine, but i’ll advice you to you stop feeling like a leader and view yourself as an equal participant or look for someone who will be happy to lead you.
Ray says
[email protected]
I don’t believe either of us have failed to ‘get’ it… I don’t believe we are blaming men. Just giving examples of insecure ones. Sometimes it is helpful for women to know what to avoid too.
When you said ‘you’, I’m sure you meant hypothetical ‘you’ as in your readers… not me.
I’ve never had that issue… I learned to go for character first a long time ago… and I’d argue that women need to seek out men who date for ‘character first’ too. For instance, the ones who’ve always dated younger women, or shorter women, or ‘beautiful’ women, or ones who make less than them?? Pass.
Ruby says
Sheri #66
Sounds like you might have over-reacted by going too far in the other direction after your ex left you. It’s possible to find a man who is both smart AND caring, and who does not bore you to tears.
Peter says
@Androgyous
“Aren’t you aware that it is only a recent phenomenon (in the context of human history) that women were allowed to choose their mates ?”
You can substitute women by ‘people’. The men in arranged marriages generally have no more choice than the women. And while mothers and aunts may consult the matchmakers, even in deepest Pakistan, the girls in the overwhelming majority of cultures have the practical right of veto, as did the daughters of Medieval European nobility. Medieval apprentices may not always have chosen to marry their Master’s daughters but it was a reliable way into the business so long as they weren’t rejected by the girl. The first time or so, she might count on another apprentice albeit younger coming along later. So women could usually veto men who are not smart rather than choose men who are smart. (BTW the Pakistani boys don’t get a veto unlike their sisters). What young men and women didn’t get was the right to choose their mate at random on the basis of sexual desire. Agricultural societies can of course be rather more coercive about mate choice because the rulers generally have a monopoly of serious violence. So for example, regiments of Zulu men were ordered to marry age/clans of young Zulu women and support them but this was not general. (Shaka Zulu notoriously put 35 000 young men and women to death because he changed his mind about their marriage arrangements and some of the girls protested because they liked their already chosen future husbands. It was the girls who protested.).
However, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is about 120,000 years old. The 6000 year long behaviour of peasants tied to the land or 3000 years of urbanisation is not the largest part of our social history when measured in generations of ancestors. Most of that time was spent in small groups of hunter gatherers. Modern small groups of hunter gatherers have societies that are quite unlike the imaginings of self appointed Evolutionary Psychologists who seem to imagine that our ancestors lived in a state of wild anarchy. For example, hunter gatherers usually have very elaborate kinship rules to prevent inbreeding (Eskimo/Inuit, Aborigines, Bushmen, Chuchksi, the group around Lake Tangynika whose name I forget etc.). Neither party to a marriage has much choice, given the rules and given the limited number of mates available within the immediate clan or even in the larger tribe. The first girl in her generation may be able to veto the least clever of two or three available boys but the third girl and third boy are going to be stuck with each other. Higher status males may eventually get more women but they will be the widows of a brother or cousin attached to him because of his status, not conquests due to his sexual “Alphaness”. “Alphaness”, as used in modern marketing jargon for dating courses, would quickly get a man killed in a hunter gatherer society. There is an argument that until 30,000 years ago sexual anarchy may have prevailed but by 30,000 years ago we were definitely creatures of culture rather than anarchy. We have been neither gorillas nor baboons for a long time.
Modern urban society is a wholly new experiment in mating strategy. Limited choice within a small group was a form of security. Assortative mating due to either sex having the power to choose personal characteristics is one new strand greatly reinforced by modern life. Now the clever may choose the clever for marriage on a scale never before seen. We are not prepared for this. I suggest that women seek taller, richer, smarter for the lost security of clan life as much as sexuality as such. We are evolved to pair bond with pretty much anybody when required.
Next attempt I may have time to write a shorter comment? Androgynous pressed a button.
Greg says
@Ray
I don’t think you understand men or how men think. I don’t know any man who has a problem dating taller women. Of course, most men I am friends with happen to be taller than 75% of women in the country. And really its only been women who have ever voiced major height preferences. One woman told me that she wished I was taller, even though I was already taller than her. That’s crazy. Also I’m an engineer so I happen to make more than most women. However, how much money a woman makes is not something I’m even concerned about. I’ve been interested in women who have the potential to make more than me once they finished grad school, but these women seemed to be too busy to date. Of course men prefer beautiful women. Doesn’t everyone? Yet I see more average women in good relationships than the hot ones. All of my hot female friends except one, are either getting played by losers or have already been divorced by age 28. In reality solid relationship oriented men don’t put too much stock into the superficial things. You should probably stop complaining and instead work on finding better men. Men are not always going to behave how you think they should. It would also help if you listened to Evan and had something to bring to the table besides beauty, money or an education because that is NOT what makes a man love you.
Ray says
[email protected]
There is a dating advice website named after a popular B-52’s song that featured this topic exactly. (taller women and shorter men). The originator of the post (a man) said he’d have a hard time dating a taller woman and asked other men if they had the same problem. Most of the other men did. Said they’d feel emasculated.
Maybe 2-3 out of the bunch said they didn’t have a problem with it. Sure, by no means is that website representative of the male gender, but it is interesting, doncha think?
I don’t know what you are talking about in your last paragraph. People don’t always behave how you think they should. Has nothing to do with gender. People love you or hate you for all kinds of rational or irrational reasons. I think women (and men) would do better to start treating each other as individuals and not stereotypes.
Greg says
@Ray
Well those guys are mostly morons. Anyways it doesn’t really matter because on average most men are taller than women. So I don’t really see your point. Unless you a 6′ tall woman your still shorter than most men.
Joe says
Re: height. IMO, men don’t bother pursing women who are taller than they are simply because experience has taught them that women who are taller than they are will not date them. It’s not because dating a taller woman is emasculating, it’s because being rejected by them is emasculating.
Re: intelligence. often people who flaunt their “intellect” are really not very deep at all. All they have is at the surface, and once you get below that intelligence, there’s little there.
Sheela says
I am a 27 year old girl just married to a man who isnt that intelligent type. I often compare him with my friends who are more informed and as you say great conversationalist. The reason I like such people is that I feel I get something from them. They show me a different world, a different aspect of things…which is very exciting in day to day life. Living with a partner you also want to grow intellectually, or to say you want to have a sense that you too are getting something from the man. In my case, I am person who likes intelligent people and when I see my husband doesn’t know the weighty issues or frowns when I express my views on drugs, prostitution, drinking, marriage etc, I think of him as someone who is very traditional and conventional. I hold a master’s degree and so does he. But…spark just doesnt flow between us. And this affects other aspects of our lives too.
ofwdating says
cool! this is just stated reality…that unfortunately, most women don’t see. (which is just too bad)
Goldie says
@ Joe, just because you can tell right away that the person is smart, doesn’t mean they’re flaunting their intellect. The opposite is also true, just because a person comes off as not so bright, doesn’t mean he’s a modest guy trying not to flaunt his intellect.
When dating online, when I wanted to determine a person’s intellect level, I used to ask them what they like to do for fun. That’s really the only question you need — it’s a non-threatening question that they’re happy to answer, and their answers tell it all. Sometimes they make it easy for you and put telling things on their profile. One guy had this under favorite books: “lol not really into that stuff”. Unfortunately I’d been a little scatterbrained about reading his profile, so I saw this little tidbit 15 minutes before leaving to go on our first date… talked to him for over an hour and confirmed that his profile tells the truth — my dog is more intelligent than this poor guy.
Also, it’s not just a man’s intellect, it’s what he chooses to do with it. There are highly intelligent people out there who just don’t like using their brain outside of their normal work hours. So in answer to my question they’d say they like hanging at the bar, or watching TV. Also a red flag.
Saint Stephen says
Goldie @77
All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
sarahrahrah! says
I agree that it is best to avoid egotistical, self-centered males and the pool of highly intelligent men seems to have more of them than the general male population. That said, I have a really hard time giving up on intelligence in men. I completely agree with Goldie and others that *it is what they do with their intelligence* that is important, but isn’t your biggest sex organ supposed to be your brain? For me, having a great conversation is a huge turn on. I love word play and that kind of flirtation. While it definitely doesn’t trump character, I would have a really hard time giving that up in a man. I can understand Evan’s point about avoiding the Bill Clintons of the world and I have to admit that being verbally gifted seems to be a strong element in being a charming manipulator.
Hmmmmm…. I’m really going to have think about this.
SearchingSally says
I disagree with Evan. Intelligent people can learn to live outside of their heads. All It takes is awareness that something is missing in life when spending all of their time analyzing everything, arguing or spouting factoids just for the sake of being right. What is missing is connecting. That is where the convesations about breakfast cereal, wallpaper and if the Richardsons are being nice or if they just want to show off their new hot tub. With that awareness the smart person also has to have the will to connect and to seek out how to connect. Some intelligent men do this.
For every difficult smart man, I know from experience that there is a less smart man who is obsessed with sports statistics or lives for Beer, or likes to sleep 14 hours a day on weekends.
Looking for the 98th percentile does limit our pool, but not because more of those people are harder to get along with, only because you are already limiting yourself to one man in fifty.
Kathy says
I am divorced from a man who was Ivy league educated plus a law degree, self-made, very successful. His IQ is close to mine within 3 points. He is very narcissistic, detached, and loves the sound of his own voice. I am now in a relationship with a guy who is above average intelligence, went to a selective prep school, a top tier college and went into his father’s business. But he is not as smart as I. Not even close. You know what? He has to ask me what words mean when I speak to him, we can’t play word games like Scrabble, he refuses to watch Jeopardy with me, he makes sarcastic comments about me being to smart, and I have to edit what I say so that he “gets” what I am talking about. Granted my IQ is an outlier on the Bell curve, but heck, this relationship is challenging just because he can’t keep up with my mind. He is mostly very sweet, attentive and compassionate, but all that falls away when he feels “threatened” by my intellect.
Margaret Thatcher says
I kind of disagree with this post. I do insist that a man be smarter than I am, generally by a considerable amount. BUT I also expect to compromise on things like looks (the only rule is that I must be attracted than him, but 5’8, chubby, hairy, badly dressed doesn’t bother me.) money (I don’t even WANT a man with money!), power, confidence, etc.
I don’t really see the problem with having one thing you won’t budge on, or possibly two if you’re young/attractive/charismatic enough to back it up…as long as you’re willing to make compromises in other areas.
And neuroticism, pretentiousness, etc? I find it endearing. I know this puts me very much in the minority, but it is what it is.
DinaStrange says
Evan, you are like awesome. Did i tell you that before?
Lisa says
I’m so attracted to beautiful minds, but also big hearts. So Macho doesn’t do it for me. He doesn’t have to be smarter than me, but at least as smart. I get frustrated with men that aren’t as smart. I’ve tried and spent 12 yrs trying to make the last one work. I can put up with the list you made if they have a kind giving heart, sense of humor, love me, and have a certain amount of humbleness that goes along with their big ego. Another words they don’t take it too seriously. Evan sounds like your wife puts up with your attributes, so why isn’t it that other women like myself can’t find the balance like your wife apparently did. She must see something else there to be so content. I’d dare say just by reading your posts and e-mails that you also love deeply, are affectionate to your wife and your giving. I imagine that goes a long way in a relationship. That’s all I’m asking for. He doesn’t have to be into self growth as much as I, but enough to where the relationship can grow. Otherwise I grow out of relationships very fast. I love an opinionated man anyways… rather have that than passive one that never has anything to say or doesn’t care about anything important.
marymary says
My niece isn’t in the top 2% at her school. She’s the TOP ONE. Do we sit around and have highbrow converstions? No, we lark about, and talk fashion and make up, and it’s not just because I’m dumber than she is. She wears her intelligence so lightly you wouldn’t know how successful she is academically, musically and creatively. I love that about her.
Most married people, like you say, don’t go home and start talking about their area of expertise. When you have kids it’s mostly about what they are going to eat next. (I exaggerate for effect).
And there are so many kinds of intelligence and ability. I love it when someone is good with their hands and can fix things. I’m useless at that. If I’m smarter at some things, sod’s law (or brain wiring) dictates that I’m dumber at others. A colleague, possibly the smartest business negotiator I know couldn’t find her way across the road to a restaurant for lunch.
I think it’s normal for humans to be intelligent so I’ve never said to myself “my man has to be smart”, never mind smarter than me.
But I think my pet fish are intelligent so I’ll shut up now.
ambytbfl says
As a “98th percentile” gal myself, marrying my husband who cannot beat me on an i.q. test was the most difficult and also the best decision that I have ever made. Previously, I only dated men who were charismatic and fiercely intelligent. Despite my intellect, I had the erroneous belief that marriages are more successful if the male is the more intelligent partner. I am academically, verbally, and logically more intelligent than my husband. He knows it, and mentions it often. However, I have many social and emotional deficits. I have traits that indicate antisocial personality disorder and I come from an abusive home. I have great difficulty navigating the nuances of relating to people on a daily basis in order to function. My husband has average to slightly above average intelligence, and the kindest temperament I’ve ever encountered. The longer we are married, the more I feel that I am the more fortunate partner, as opposed to when we first married and I thought he was lucky to catch me. Brilliance without compassion produces brutality.
Evan Marc Katz says
You got it, Amy. Thanks for your contribution.
Melody says
I’m with you, Amby. My IQ has been tested at 135 twice, whatever that means. I have a bachelor’s degree and some graduate school. However, making a difference has always meant more to me than money, so I’ve never earned a lot. Some would consider me successful, while others would say I’m wasting my potential. Whatever.
I fell in love with a man who has a trade school education and is the traffic signal tech for our city. He is masculine as hell, wickedly funny, brilliant, and street smart. He amazes me every day. And most importantly, he treats me like a queen and loves me for the quirky, sometimes emotional woman I am. I’m the luckiest girl alive. Yeah, I’m the one who can read anything and grasp it, and I can write any document we’ll ever need. But he’s the one who can run any vehicle or piece of equipment made. He’ll keep us alive if we’re ever lost in the woods (not that he would let us get lost in the first place, but you get the idea), and he can repair everything in this house. We’re perfect complements of each other intelligence-wise…what I don’t know, he does and vice versa. I can’t imagine being with the male version of me. Ick. Yuck.
Lisa says
Love it Goldie! you nailed it… and also I agree know it all’s aren’t always that intelligent they just know enough to be know it all’s… I can even at times find the loop-hole in and challenge then and then all of the sudden they are gone.. That’s b/c they can’t handle a woman that actually might be more intelligent than they are.. There is a depth that comes with wisdom and intelligent doesn’t equate with wisdom. I’m realizing that I’d rather have the depth of wisdom than the cocky moody arrogant know it all of someome that might be in the 2%… someone grounded and able to have life experience rather than just be well read..
anushka says
That sounds just like me apart from im a girl and every guy iv dated has just been so dumb. Basically i always date guys that are sweet handsome but when i talk to them and get into conversations then they are just stupid. I would actually be thrilled to date a intelligent guy for once, maybe he could teach me a few things for a change.
Tania says
There goes my last hope! :(, I really like smart men, but you are 1000% correct, thanks so much for making that clear to me, now i can move on into other things. Sad to see the reality but conscious to make a change.
Ingrid says
I don’t agree at all! There are many types of intelligence. My uncle is a brilliant man, ivy league education, entrepreneur, and huge philanthropist. His wife is not as intellectually smart as he is and she fell in love with his mind. They are still very happily married. So this is such a general statement! She is an emotionally intelligent woman, which is different but she is still very smart. You said that your wife is smart but not as smart as you….and she is not single.
I think we all need to focus on being the best person we can be and stop over generalizations about why we are single. Let’s not “date” down and think that all smart men are all of those negative things because they are not. Thank you 🙂
CarolG says
Great post. Just experienced this with a brilliant doctor who has ended it all by ignoring texts and not returning a phone call. EQ lags IQ. So much for professionalism also. As an intelligent woman this was the smartest guy I have dated but unfortunately he has all the flaws of my own father as well. Yet the highs make us long for more every time. When the sensuality and sexuality match the intellect it makes matters even worse. Oh well. Back to the banal.
Synchronize Your Dogmas says
Kathy @81
I am divorced from a man who was Ivy league educated plus a law degree, self-made, very successful. His IQ is close to mine within 3 points.
I’m a Physicist and I really have a hard time understanding what do you mean regarding the 3-point difference in IQ. Do you really think the difference is 3 points? Or it’s a fluctuating variable, that only holds true to that particular moment when you took that test? Or that’s your Personal Record that you will use as a banner for future interactions?
I guess if I ever dated you, you would not understand half of my jokes or one-liners, I could not discuss the fine points of string theory with you or even Special Relativity (and it’s a 100 year old theory). Do I need that in a relationship? Not really. Do I have to dumb down my knowledge when interacting with women who know nothing about Physics? Not at all, I have a full spectrum of things that interest me, and on which I’m not fully proficient, and I’m mostly interested in your opinion on those things. That’s dating. And I don’t fake it, I’m just not that into myself when I date, I’m into you. Of course, if I insist on talking about Physics in every single date I have, because it’s my passion, that’s also my choice, but I can’t blame the girl for the outcome of the date.
Evan, I think I don’t understand what ‘smart’ means. Is PhD smart? Even it means 5 years specializing in one single subject? I’m a Theoretical Physicist, but I know people can be smarter in so many ways (like my big boss, that only has a BA but runs the company)… People should forget about the IQ tests and the whole 98th percentile, it really only makes sense if you use it in your area of expertise or if you are a true genius whose knowledge encompasses several fields.
judy says
92 – So you’re smart – and that’s great. And I mean that most sincerely. And I’m (slightly :o) familiar with the string theory too. However, would I enjoy talking about this or politics or racism or abortion or whatever on a date.
NO!
I’m assuming a date to be a romantic one – and for me, he’s smart if he knows how to court me, and I’m smart if I know how to respond the way he wants me to to and vice versa, etc. (that’s another “string” theory for you :o) No malice meant.
ISO Smrt says
Is this a post to help sociopaths find love? I understand you’re point about the general moodiness of the 2% “gifted” population. Smart equals awareness and realizing most people aren’t aware (or don’t want to be) can be tiresome to deal with. I don’t agree with the cold advise to make adjustments and lower one’s standards. I know from experience that if a woman is more intelligent, a certain type of resentment can develop in the man she is dating. What advise do you have for me other than “date another kind of man”?
When will incredibly intelligent people get over themselves and try to accept the intelligence of other human beings? No one knows everything or has the only opinion that matters. Asshole isn’t a synonym for smart in my thesaurus and I’ve checked.
John says
That’s exactly why I date dumb-asses. No stress and they are ALWAYS fun. Live well, good people.
Nish says
I am a sapiosexual. I get outrageously turned on to men who are very intelligent. I discovered this is my “AP” and honor classes in junior high school. Likewise, many of the guys I was attracted to were also attracted to me. However, as I matured, I realized what the author of this blog asserted. Often times when two people share too many of the same characteristics, they collide. I like a man with an ego, confident in himself, and one who can back every bit of his statements up with facts. I love the man who can challenge my mind and teach me something new. But I am also one prone to sometimes being egotistical and wanting to be the teacher instead of the listener. I fault my PCOS (Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome-a hormonal imbalance in women associated with women who bear higher levels of testosterone than that of the average woman) symptoms, but I know there are many women who like to share equal input in a relationship if not “wearing the pant” themselves.
Although my husband is not the witty guy I am normally attracted to, similar to the author of this blog, my spouse likes to read, explore, learn knew concepts and read and write poetry. We share all of these things and much more in common. But we are not infested with debates and ego wars in our home. We are content and satisfied with each other. This is what it boils down to, in my opinion. Are you able to be in love and be happy? Just because he is not “as” intelligent as the guys who drive me insane (sexually), it doesn’t make him unintelligent. Furthermore, I do know how to set reasonable expectations in men and m yself. I also know for certain that even though I may not ever be able to be with a man who can be like my “in-house” professor, I know that I couldn’t force myself to be with someone who I am not attracted to at all. Years ago, I was attracted to this guy who is a semi-pro football player (because of his looks). I wrote him poems using quite a bit of figurative language in expressing my sexuality to him. I must reiterate if I already mentioned, that I have a passion for literature. This guy practically needed to be explained every bit of the poem’s meaning, when to me, it was quite self-explanatory. I don’t think a fifth grader would have had a hard time figuring out what the metaphors meant. Needless to say, I was completely turned off. So I guess for me, there has to be a happy medium even though he might not be more intelligent than me.
SL says
Not quite sure how I ended up here, but after reading this article I realise I have experienced this first hand, but from the otherside.
I’m quite a modest man, but I know that I am very intelligent, think about things logically and sometimes disregard emotion out of certain decisions.
I have recently broken up with my girlfriend. She was very smart but liked the fact I could outdo her in arguments. However she was a very kind hearted and warm person, selfless and always wanting to spend time with me.
We broke up because she said I was selfish, too critical and wasn’t relationship orientated enough. Maybe that was to do with the fact that she was older.
I have been utterly heartbroken as I had finally found someone that was my match and equal.
But I’m starting to realise now, and after reading this article that maybe I need to change. I don’t know whether it is life lessons or my over analytical brain. I have become a lot more cold, whereas I used to be a warm and loving boyfriend.
Just a question to you guys and girls. If there a way you can become more loving, or is it pretty set in stone? I would like to one day go back to this girl and try things again, but feel like I need to sort myself out first …
rana says
I find smart men attractive as hell, they are just difficult to deal with but I don’t believe a girl should give up on them, if a girl is interested in smart men she must become a smart girl, she must work on her self, read books, watch documentaries, read articles, widen her circle of knowledge and interest and become an interesting woman herself, once she reaches a high level of confidence supported with knowledge, wisdom and intelligence she can get the attention of smart men. a beautiful confident attractive girl can’t expect the attention of a smart man but a beautiful smart intellectual curious girl can definitely earn the respect and attention of a smart man! don’t be lazy girls, your looks will turn heads but your minds can captivate other minds!
SM says
I was with you until you got to your happy solution that you married a WOMAN who’s not as book smart as you. Well, that’s no solution for WOMEN who don’t want to be smarter than their man. It’s the natural social order of things in our society for the man to be smarter (older, taller, stronger, more successful, etc.) than the woman. So, what you did was pick a person that’s in line with who society says you should pick. I, on the other hand, as a woman, can’t do what you did and still be in line with our social order.
There is only one way you will compromise what you really want in a relationship, and that’s when you hold just being in a relationship (any relationship) as a higher goal than being in a relationship that meets your standards.
Evan Marc Katz says
SM – I was with you until you started saying some false things. To wit:
“Well, that’s no solution for WOMEN who don’t want to be smarter than their man.” So if you’re in the 95th percentile of intelligence, you need to date a guy in the 5% above you? Okay. Understand that many of those men are nerds, dorks, geeks, and beta males, and the alpha males aren’t necessarily going to want to commit to you in return. But okay, you want what you want.
“It’s the natural social order of things in our society for the man to be smarter (older, taller, stronger, more successful, etc.) than the woman.” So what you’re saying is that women can only date “up”, but inherently, men are dating “down”. Do you think that little of yourself to suggest that all men are dating beneath themselves by choosing women who aren’t as intelligent and successful? I don’t.
“So, what you did was pick a person that’s in line with who society says you should pick. I, on the other hand, as a woman, can’t do what you did and still be in line with our social order.” First of all, I could give a crap about what society said I should pick. I picked the woman who made me happiest, the one who accepted me unconditionally, the one with whom I can spend every day and build a life around. Second of all, you can’t have it both ways. Are you going to adhere to our “natural social order” because of what “society” says? Or is society ridiculous in imposing a “social order”? My take is that women chose men who were taller, richer, and smarter at a time when women could not survive independently. Now that you can – and then some – you don’t need a man to pay your way or slay the bad guys. You need a man who is sensitive to your needs, is consistent and kind and commitment oriented, and helps out with the housework and childrearing. Those are the best predictors of a happy marriage. Not whether he’s incrementally smarter than you.
So you hold out for your fantasy man and leave the relationship advice to me. Okay?
SM says
Let me try again to clarify my point by using an analogy. You, a man, wrote a post to women regarding their need to date smarter men and why they should open up and try something different. The example you provided to prove that it can be done is that you, a man, chose a wife who, in your opinion, is not as smart as you.
Here’s my analogy: What if you were writing a post about “Why do women always want to date a taller man?” And, you (a man) said, “Hey, I’m a man and I married a woman who’s shorter than me and it’s ok. So, you women can date someone shorter, too, just like I did.” Ummmm… Well, of course it worked out for you–you’re a man with a shorter woman. That’s the norm. You didn’t have to take any great leap outside of the box. Using yourself as an example would have really only been effective if you were a woman who is married to a man who’s not as smart as you are. Then, you could happily report back to all the women that they can do it, too. I’m afraid that, as a man, you compromise your credibility by telling us how “you overcame” your desire to be with a smarter woman and “opened yourself up” to dating a woman not as smart as you. Do you see my point? By being a man who is married to a less smart woman, you are just fulfilling the stereotype that you are advising women to boldly break free from (the stereotype that in a relationship the guy is supposed to be smarter, taller, etc.) One might even be forced to question whether you ever really wanted a woman that was smarter than you in the first place. Honestly, I was kind of thrown off by the fact that you acknowledged that she’s not as smart as you–I was thinking, “Who says that about their spouse? Will she read post?” I digress…
You say that a man is “dating down” when he chooses a woman who is less smart, shorter, not as successful. I beg to differ. In our society, this is not really considered dating down for a man as it is for a woman. We live in a society where if a woman brings home a guy who’s not as successful as she is or as “fill in the blank” as she is, her man is not seen as a complete catch. He’s not going to be able to fulfill the stereotypical role of the man in all aspects. Conversely, if a man finds a woman who’s not as “fill in the blank as he is” it’s a good thing because she’s more likely to worship the ground he walks on, stay home and raise his babies, never challenge him intellectually, clean and cook, and cater to his every need. She’s going to be able to fulfill the stereotypical role of a woman. It’s a double standard that exists whether we like it or not. Otherwise, there’d be no reason for you to even write this article.
Anywho, personally, I was never necessarily looking for smarter. I never even realized that intelligence was a quality that was important to me until I dated this guy that had an extremely limited amount of life experience and struggled with certain words (he pronounced “politics” like “poh-LIH-tics”), couldn’t figure out where his luggage was at the baggage claim (it went to the next carousel over and EVERYONE from our flight figured it out except him), and had trouble reading. It really came down to a compatibility issue–I just couldn’t picture how our life would work together and I felt bad because I would talk to him like a child when he did dumb things. He also was in competition with me because he felt so inadequate and would try to prove me wrong about things and fail. I really didn’t even try to be right but he had so much to prove that it made things awkward…. This guy was probably well below the IQ level you’re suggesting that high IQ women date. I’ll stick closer to my own kind in the future. I see my high IQ male friends getting married all around me but always to women who are not as “fill in the blank” as they are.
I think if you found happiness with your wife then either (1) having someone as or more intelligent than you perhaps wasn’t really as big of a deal breaker as you might have thought it was or (2) your wife isn’t really that much less smart than you than you make her out to be. Otherwise, I struggle with the concept that we can just ignore characteristics in a mate that don’t work for us. I call that settling and it doesn’t sound fun. I think many people, at a certain age, begin to settle. Like I said, some people just really value being in a relationship. So, they will compromise and that’s their business. Personally, I don’t understand why people think being in a relationship is so much better than being single or such a huge goal/achievement. Being in a relationship can be a lot of work and constant compromise and (ugh) togetherness… Being single is joyous freedom. Lol. =) So, yes, I will stay single until Mr. Perfect comes along because I have nothing to lose. I’m happy single–why risk being perpetually annoyed with Mr. So-so?
P.S. I don’t have or want kids and I don’t need help with the housework. I happened upon this site when I googled “why do dumb people annoy me so much.”
Evan Marc Katz says
I think if you found happiness with your wife then either (1) having someone as or more intelligent than you perhaps wasn’t really as big of a deal breaker as you might have thought it was
That’s exactly right. For 35 years, I was looking for the woman who was smarter than I was. I found that a) there weren’t that many of ’em and b) “smart” is a highly overrated trait when it comes to relationships. I also discovered that “smart” isn’t a binary trait; you’re not either smart or stupid. Intelligence is a spectrum like everything else. As such, I advise women to do EXACTLY what I did – if your pursuit of some tall, smart, dark, handsome, rich, kind, sensitive, creative ubermensch isn’t working, then maybe you should consider compromising on something. If that means that he’s slightly less book smart than you (say, you’re 90th percentile intelligent and he’s 80th percentile intelligent), that’s okay. You can still be very, very happy.
or (2) your wife isn’t really that much less smart than you than you make her out to be.
I didn’t make her out to be ANYTHING. That’s the typical black and white thinking that I get from readers however. Simply because I acknowledge that I’m more intellectually curious than my wife doesn’t mean my wife is a moron. What kind of society do we live in where we can’t acknowledge each other’s strengths and weaknesses? My wife is more patient than I am, more generous than I am, better at grammar, knows more Shakespeare, has better diplomatic skills, is more organized, and handier than I am. I read more, write more, and am more intellectually curious. This is news? Are both people in a relationship really supposed to be EQUALLY smart, athletic, ambitious, attractive, etc? I don’t have any patience for people who think that because I’m “smarter” than my wife that somehow I look down on my wife, that I’ve married down, or that, if you do the same, you’d be marrying down. Use some commonsense. If you’re 95th percentile smart, very few men will be qualified, and if you fall for the few men who are smarter, you’ll have to compromise on something ELSE that’s probably MORE important.
suchbs says
Someone truly intelligent would not have written an article in this manner. You are speaking in absolutes when it is all conditional probabilities.
I am a mid-30s, male, PhD, scientist that scores at the 1-in-1,000 or higher rarity on every IQ and aptitude test I have taken. All 3 of my degrees were earned while on fully academic scholarships.
I do not fit the stupid stereotypes of this article and have great relationships.
Being highly intelligent is a gift that allows you to improve yourself in all areas so long as you have the proper perspective.
Evan Marc Katz says
No, you’re evidently so literal-minded that you don’t understand a very basic concept: when you give advice to the masses, you must make generalizations. You can’t account for every exception. Are you suggesting that we can’t make generalizations about ANYONE? That there are NO valid stereotypes in describing groups of people? C’mon Future PhD. You’re too bright for that. You just told us so yourself.
suchbs says
Evan Marc Katz writes that he is smart and then generalizes using himself somewhat of an example.
What does he have to back this up other than hot air?
He’s a relationship coach.
Excuse me while I go back to writing one of the several research manuscripts I hope to publish this summer.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks for making my point about narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed, coldly logical men who are much more concerned with ideas than feelings.
RustyLH says
the worst thing about academics is that they often think they know everything. Even when some convince people they are right…history or more modern technology often proves they were actually wrong.
Cherry Garcia says
I’m happily married to a highly intelligent guy, and even though he’s smarter than me (and I’m intelligent by all means), he doesn’t think I’m out of his league. We debate all the time and I’m however way wiser than he is. He loves me for who I am. Are people really that shallow?
Tracy says
Sorry, you lost me at “smarter than you are.” This will sound awful but I am very intelligent. It runs in my family. I don’t want someone smarter, I want someone at least as smart. My first husband is a lovely man. Unfortunately in terms of intelligence and background we were too different.
Pam says
My first husband was also a lovely man. We started dating in high school, and he was everything that most sixteen year old girls want – he was super cute, athletic and funny. As I aged into my mid-twenties, however, and he matured into the man that he eventually became, the disparity in our intellects became too great to ignore. The things that were important to me at sixteen were no longer important to me at twenty-six. He wanted to be the “man” in the relationship…he wanted to lead and he wanted me to follow. I am okay with traditional marital roles, but I refuse to follow the lead of a fool – I am okay with someone who is not as smart as I am, but when they are not smart enough to accept my counsel or to understand the obvious flaws in their reasoning, that is unacceptable to me. I divorced him and am now happily married to the kindest, gentlest, smartest man I have ever known. I am in the 99th percentile intelligence-wise, as is he; we are also emotionally on par with one another. Finding an intelligent man is NOT hard if you are employed in an intellectual field – they are everywhere!! Yes, they often wear glasses and don’t dress in the latest of fashions, but they are still wildly attractive! And I agree with the previous poster, I didn’t necessarily want someone smarter than me, just someone at least as smart. Further, I am not sure where Evan finds his list of characteristics for intelligent people – “On the other you get a narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed, coldly logical man who is much more concerned with ideas than feelings, and much more concerned with himself than with you.” These are not characteristics of intellectually gifted individuals!! Gifted individuals are well known for being sensitive, empathetic, self-sacrificing and altruistic; feelings are often paramount – recognition of their own feelings, and a deep compassion for the feelings of others. THAT is what you get when you date an intellectually gifted man or woman, not the monstrous and self-serving characteristics that Evan describes. Try it, you’ll like it. 🙂
starthrower68 says
On a blog that is widely read, it’s more expedient to use generalizations. I would say many readers of this blog, as well as Evan, get that not all members of a subset of the population are all one way or another. I don’t know Evan’s IQ, but I bet he’s way up there on the intelligence scale; I based that on reading his writing. He’s erudite, accomplished, reasoned, and debates well. He also advocates men treat women well, he loves his wife and children and he appears to be emotionally intelligent. But for every one top percentile intellectual that would be a wonderful mate, somebody else has an example of one that would not. I briefly dated a professor with 2 PhD’s. He was odious, bossy, and cold.
Sandra says
I don’t think so, I know plenty of successful relationships where I have seen many of my friends trend towards smarter guys and it even becomes more pronounce as they tend to get older and looking for more of a provider and conversationalists then someone with less smarts, which tend not to go the distance in the relationships. Looks fade after a while and intelligence and smarts will stay, after all sites like IQ Catch and the like do seem to draw in girls / women who do go after these traits.
Cherry says
Oh my God, are ALL intelligent men like this?! Please tell me this isn’t so. I have always been attracted to intelligent men but have never felt confident enough to date one, even though I’m considered above average myself when it comes to intelligence. Right now I have a super smart doctor who is interested in me and I’m tempted to go for it, but if he’s going to be anything like the way Evan has described, I don’t think I could handle that. I’m conflicted, because although I’ve seen him being very authoritarian with his staff and students, he is very gentlemanly with me and apparently has a very good bedside manner also, so I really don’t know what to do!
Anne says
If I could only read one last blog before getting married, this one would be it. Most related blogs aren’t very insightful anyway… but this, well, I don’t believe it’s out of the realm of possibility that I got drunk one evening and secretly hacked your site to publish this under my male-alter-ego-brain. My MENSA HS/college bf and I failed miserably because we were basically the same person. And the next guy (whom I thought I’d marry if I did, indeed, marry) eventually gave up and said I was too much of an alpha-female and he could never win with me. The whole process was excruciatingly painful. So, your sir, are certainly on to something. Every self-righteous single (or attached) lady/dude/whatever should read this.
Laura says
My first marriage ultimately failed because my husband had serious insecurities about me being more intelligent than him. But, that was more intelligent in every way, not just IQ. My second marriage was amazing comparatively, my husband was a genius, but also was extremely tough to deal with many times. I held onto it because the good times made up for the bad. We had an awesome child together and then he died of leukemia when she was two.
Now, I am looking for a new man. I have one who is not academic or traditionally intellectual, but is extremely emotionally intellectual and totally physically compatible. I think this may be the ideal for me. The first thing that made me think I was his woman was that I outsmarted him intellectually during an argument. He was impressed, and I was impressed with his reaction.
It all depends on the people involved and minute details of attraction.
averagegirl says
I don’t want a guy that smarter than me, i just don’t want a dumb jock and don’t want to date a sexist pig who thinks he’s a “nice guy” and entitled to to the “best” women.
Are those high standards? I like normal, employed, funny smarties. I’d like someone comparable in attractiveness and income to myself. And i’m not, you know, making shit tons of money.
P.J. Barron says
This whole post is ironic. Evan you don’t know everything. Stop Projecting your issues onto everyone else. I suppose its okay when the woman is a know it all??? We see it all the time a women being intellectually dominate. Its accepted as if she knows best and must control her animal of a man or he would certainly destroy the world. But when a man happens to be of a higher intellect than according to you he’s a know it all, emotionless ass hole no one can stand. Evan you are only proliferating the issue that everyone has cognitive biases and no one wants to be wrong. its natural for one to want to feel in control but even making anymore of this than a fleeting thought “living in your head” is the main component of these perceived disconnections in relationships. The subject in its entirety is a case of ironic over thinking. In short try not to think to hard in terms of who is smarter so that it doesn’t compound your insecurities and cloud your mind of whats truly important…THE OTHER PERSON.
Lorena Lamas says
I have to say, I was entranced by your article and completely pulled in, whilst blown away. The entire time thinking you were possibly a female (feminine energy?) and made a point to continue reading.
Anyhow, the reason for my comment is I realized you mentioned the %2 ordeal and your being smart quite suddenly and it became a strong point.
I went from relating myself to disowning myself in that sense.
On top of that, I spent the rest of the day unintentionally focusing my thoughts on what my level of intelligence means on a societal level, and more importantly, a personal level.
I would like to ask your take on how it feels, and what exactly is, to be in this %2.
The only mental comfort aside from proclaiming myself ignorant is assuming your standards are a bit high.
Thank you for your time.
And you article was amazing and provocative, well done. I would have preferred to email this small news, however. I am apparently an asshole to try to do so.
*Applauds for the common social cause*
That comment about any convo at any cocktail whatever, gosh, it just *POOF*
In a good way 😉 thanks!
vic says
This is so good!! written so brilliantly! one of the reasons is probably because IM A SMART WOMAN DATING A SMART DUDE! having ego clashes and being unable to open up and avoiding being seen as puny and shit everything you have mentioned above! This is such an eye opening article! I love this! 🙂
SD says
Thank u so much, u have answered all my questions. I get attracted to these smart guys but end up with heart-ache nothing else.
Etta says
Apparently the correlation coefficient for IQ is higher for spouses than it is between parent and child meaning that we tend to choose for mates someone closer to our own IQ, the best biological option for offspring. Friendships with or without benefits are different. It’s not as critical that they work closely and permanently to give children the advantage of two committed adult mentors/providers for at least half of the child’s lifetime. Thus, choosing a more intelligent mate might have underlying biological appeal but maintaining a long relationship is more likely with two similar intellects. Personally, I think this whole attraction thing boils down to biological urges whether we admit it or not, that is, procreation not sex.
bob says
If the author was truly in the top 2%, intelligence-wise, he would realize that not all women can date men who are dumber than they are, and that if ALL people followed this advice, nobody would mate up, because somebody is ALWAYS the smarter one in a relationship. Written like a true 90th-percentiler.
Samantha says
Terrific article, Evan. It’s funny I always manage to land on your articles via Google when I’m trying to solve my latest dating dilemma. My latest is that I’m currently hanging out with a man 15-yrs my junior (*was rather uncomfortable with this at first, as he was the one interested in me!) but as it turns out… this may be the healthiest thing I’ve encountered in a VERY long time as I’m realizing that one, I need my independence and two, I can be rather difficult to be with (as you so eloquently stated here).
But the Silver lining is that, while we’re both smart – he’s not one of the corporate/MENSA go-getter types you outlined here. I’ve dated those and like you said, they wound up being disasters. My parents’ marriage IS that disaster. My friend is far more religious than me, and I’ve been in Recovery working on my love/codependency issues – so it kind of works out. I’ve been also starting to learn to shut up my yap – which I’m glad to see that major difference between what is “honesty” and what is being tactless.
Thanks for all that you do Evan. You’ve definitely made a difference in my life through the years.
– Sam from L.A.
pattycake says
yeah, it’s funny how that happens, huh? ……
anonymous says
Hmmmm…I’m not sure why anyone would SPECIFICALLY want to date someone who was more intelligent or intellectually curious than they are, but I can totally understand people wanting to date people on their own wavelength. I’ve been in relationships with men who were less intellectually curious than me and it was boring and frustrating. I couldn’t connect with them.
Surely this advice is just ‘don’t date dickheads’, not ‘don’t date very intelligent people’. I consider myself very intelligent – nay, I have the damned proof 😉 I graduated top of my year from uni – and I’m also highly empathic and compassionate, not cold, nor argumentative (I’ve never argued with a boyfriend, and yes, I know that’s not ok either). My point is, why generalise about people in this way? There should only be three things you ask yourself when you meet someone, surely: 1) Are you attracted to them? 2) Do you enjoy hanging out with them? 3) Are they are nice person? (i.e. do they show empathy and concern for your welfare?) If anyone doesn’t tick all boxes then they’re not right.
(Although I came here because I searched ‘I never seem to find anyone attractive’, by which I mean ‘no one has ever ticked all three boxes’, so perhaps I’m going about this the wrong way somehow…)
Echo says
I’ve had both: men who were brilliant, and every bit as self-absorbed as you describe above, and men who were bright, and thoughtless, reactionary, impetuous, and fickle.
I think, rather than a matter of intellect, it’s a matter of personality. Either a man is going to take the time to consider his faults and their effects on other human beings around him, or he isn’t. Choose the kind, thoughtful man, and if he’s smart, so much the better.
Aidan says
Hmm, I’m a smart 35yr old lady, and is always attracted to smart guys but I’ve never dated one because I don’t believe in laws of attraction. But after a while, when u know they aren’t smart it can get really exhausting.. Guess I have to really look out for that smart one and hopefully this time it will work! Truthfully smart is just a bonus!
Jack says
I’m having a dating problem… I consider myself smart, and I “know a little about a lot” I feel like I can think faster and about more than most. My main problem is finding girls that think simmilarly to me. I am only a sophmore in highschool and have a lot of my life infront of me, but what im wondering is are there many people who understand that being smatter isn’t just knowing more but more about knowing how to look differently at different scenarios and being able too find solutions to your problems. In my past expirences with people I dont think the average person knows that… then agian I might be wrong about my definition in the first place. Im just wondering if anyone feels the same way.
Im also wondering if im the only one who feels like they think differently than everyone else. It might be something like me being mentally older than I really am and I just need to wait untill everyone else around me catches up… if anyone here has any advise and thuthi they felt or feep the same way I do go ahead and reply… it would be nice to feel like im not the only one.
Ps: Sorry for not proof reading.
Mrs. Smartypants says
What baloney! Know-it-all? Egomaniac? Always want things your way? Those are not byproducts of intelligence, they are the fruits of bad manners mixed with vanity and insecurity.
My IQ is in the 130s, my husband’s IQ is in the 140s. We’ve been very happily married for over 20 years. Our intelligence lets us enjoy similar humor, similar interest in social issues, similar goals for our family. Our lives are wrapped up in each other and our children. Success in love happens when two people have the wisdom to put aside their pride, to be slow to anger, quick to forgive, and quicker still to seek forgiveness. Humility is a choice, not a temperament.
My husband and I have worked hard to instill in our children that intelligence is like beauty or athleticism: they are gifts, not achievements, and what you do with those gifts is what matters.
James says
Such an enlightening article, Evan Marc Katz!
Janelle says
Wow.
I’m not going to lie, I actually googled “How to find an intellectual man” and this is what made its appearance. Have you ever thought about what the ideal relationship for an intellectual woman even is. First, you’re NOT a woman, so it’s probably difficult for you to even imagine. On top of that, you’re not an intellectual woman whose discredited a number of ways already in this society. We have to succumb ourselves already to the mediocre aspects of this world just to survive, and now a man is telling us not to date “up.” Sorry, but I’m bored with men who can’t hold an intellectual conversation, debate or stimulate my mind. I require that for a meaningful relationship. Anything else would leave me unsatisfied. And, to generalize intellectual men this way is unnerving. This advice is horrible
And the marginalization of intellectuals and oppression of the female never ceases. Smh.
Joek says
Sorry, your grammar and syntax belie your claim of “intellectual”. Yes, I’m criticising that.
Also, I’d recommend reading mor of Evan’s work, perspective, and history before condeming him. Again, your criticism before understanding him makes me question your “intellectualism”.
Oh, and the victim card is overplayed.
SMH
Janelle says
I’m telling the world what I feel like as an intellectual woman. If you’re going to criticize my grammar and word choices, please back up your argument by stating specifically what makes my grammar and syntax unacceptable. Otherwise, your point is not valid nor accepted. I feel that this advice benefits the man of the relationship. I’m not discrediting him, just this article. I’m fully entitled to my opinion.
Russell says
There is nothing wrong with wanting a man who can hold an intellectual conversations, but the problem is that women are earning degrees and post graduate degrees at a much higher rate than men. Overall, bachelors and post graduate degrees combined, women earn about 140 degrees for every 100 degrees earned by men.
The good news is that being able to have an intellectual discussion has zero to do with a college degree. It has more to do with curiosity, and a desire to learn new things. That’s part of it anyway. A guy who likes to watch educational TV like Discovery Channel, History International, etc., and then go online and learn more about that stuff, can have very intellectual discussions. Same for somebody who likes to keep up on the news. I have met men who did not have a degree, but enjoyed having intellectual discussions, and were quite intelligent, while I have also met men I went to college with who couldn’t hold a conversation if it had handles on it.
If “dating up” is the real goal, then we are back to the fact that there are far more women earning degrees than men, and the men who do have degrees don’t always prefer a woman with a degree. For most men, with or without a degree, the priority is a combination of looks that please his eyes, along with a personality that makes him want to be around her. Education comes in as lower priority somewhere down the priority list.
Most men, even uneducated men have things they are very passionate about, and they tend to know quite a lot about those things. Many men don’t care to talk to women, because women only want to talk about women things. Often, the last things they want to talk about are things that he is actually passionate about. I am not faulting men or women in this, but you can’t blame a man for not being into conversation when it always has to be about things that only she is interested in.
Maybe he is passionate about cars, or sports, or hunting/fishing, or the news/politics, or history…especially military history, or maybe he is passionate about guns, and loves to target shoot. I know some women who know more about guns than most men because they chose to become passionate about one of her man’s passions. Of course in the beginning it takes effort because it is all new. But before long, she knows a lot, and the more she knows, the more she likes it.
If you aren’t willing to do that, isn’t it kind of selfish to expect him to be interested in the things you are interested in? Like it or not, men and women often have different interests. If you need to be able to have discussions with him about things you are interested in, you might start out talking to him about things he is interested in.
jules p says
thank you Russell. She just doesn’t get it. I mean women are only ever interested in women’s stuff. She should learn something about men’s stuff like politics, history, world affairs, etc. She may have a hard time with the learning curve on these topics as a woman, but it will be worth her time in the end I n attracting a quality man who takes her with him to go fishing and shooting.
Luigi says
This is the most biased post I’ve ever seen in my whole existence. The only real evidence to back up your claims is your own personal experiences, and it’s safe to say that it is not enough to withstand your beliefs and lifestyle. If I understand correctly, you’re asking your feminine followers to date the dumbass in the black who can’t hold up to himself, and when they get thrown into a political or philosophical debate, they end up looking like the idiot in the room. What a crappy article this is. You are imposing your own views on men to a broad audience of women who will most likely take that advice because they are filled with ignorance.
Evan Marc Katz says
“If I understand correctly, you’re asking your feminine followers to date the dumbass in the black who can’t hold up to himself, and when they get thrown into a political or philosophical debate, they end up looking like the idiot in the room.”
Evidently, you don’t understand correctly. And I’m certainly not going to take the time to make sure you do. Best of luck.
Luigi says
No, I understood you quite clearly; you’re suggesting dating someone who is under your level of intelligence because you yourself are incapable of handling such a person. That is the most ignorant thought I have ever stumbled upon.
Evan Marc Katz says
No, you are putting words in my mouth that I’ve never said anywhere in 8 years of my blog. It’s impossible to defend myself against things I haven’t said, so I’m not going to begin to try. Good night and, please refrain from insulting me on my own blog. It’s not very nice. Thank you.
Luigi says
Of course you didn’t say those words directly; you implemented them in your writing and overall message. I am not offending you; I am criticizing your writing and your ideas. What is the purpose of writing a blog if you cannot accept criticism? Your theory of two personalities clashing together is only one of opinion, and I am directly stating why I disagree with everything you wrote without being hostile.
Evan Marc Katz says
“You’re suggesting dating someone who is under your level of intelligence because you yourself are incapable of handling such a person. That is the most ignorant thought I have ever stumbled upon.”
You put words in my mouth that I didn’t say, told me that I was incapable of handling intelligent people, and told me that this was ignorant. If this is not hostile, I should break out my dictionary.
Anyway, I’m going to bed. You should, too. No reason for you to keep reading such an ignorant man’s blog. Goodbye and good luck.
MonisENTJ says
Could you explain me why did you want to find a women that was smarter than you?
Fletcher says
I love how intelligence alone was the only segregating factor used to determine the exact personality of a part of the human population. Did you know 100% of smart people have pet lions and will punch you in the face if you disagree with evolution? Its a fact, I met someone before that seemed smart and he actually had his lion punch me in the face, so all smart people are like that. You should do one on what its like to date white or black people.
Lali says
This article is hilarious!!!! Evan equates analytical intelligence with “negative” qualities which some highly intelligent people might have or not…and he also assumes that qualities that unattractive to him, are unattractive to others as well because people who have such qualities make “poor partners”. Well, in my case, I’m way happier with a highly intelligent, moody, workaholic than with a dumb, sensitive and “supportive” guy 🙂
Nevertheless, I think his message is: if you want to find a spouse you have to know yourself and find someone who balances your “negative” qualities and be flexible about your choices. So, with that thought in mind, if you want to get married, it doesn’t matter who you marry, what matters is what the two of you do to accommodate to each other’s flaws….
Evan Marc Katz says
You’ve created a false dichotomy: the highly intelligent guy vs the dumb guy. The fact is that most people are in between. So I’m not asking you to settle on someone you don’t respect intellectually; I’m asking you not to overvalue intelligence…and then complain that he’s too selfish, moody, stubborn and unavailable for you.
Lali says
LOL!!!! I’m NOT complaining 🙂 I’m happy with my extremely stubborn, moody, absent minded 4.0 from Yale law school alumnus… We always have smart discussions and neither of us is a ‘yes” person so we discuss each disagreement cleverly.
To give you credit, my smart friends who have married guys who are less smart than they are, married ten years earlier than I did. They have husbands who cook dinner almost every night and say YES to almost every decision my female friends need to make. Does it work for them? Yes, they are happy being the HEAD of the household 🙂 Not for me!
I love having two perspectives on one issue. Having a smarter partner is like having a check and balance for life. For example, when opening a savings account, a guy who is less smart agrees to whatever interest rate the wife thinks is good but a smarter man questions the choice, grills on details, and helps by researching to see if there is a better product for family savings. And having that “check and balance” makes a difference! Keeps me happier than having a man who will say : “Yes honey, excellent choice!” .
Sandra says
So does that mean that you, Evan, are advocating that women date less intelligent and assertive men – which, logically, would mean that you are advocating for men to date smarter and more assertive women? Not sure how well that would work, at least for the majority of the population… I seem to remember you writing articles arguing against just that – arguing how women need to be more in touch with their femininity, instead of exhibiting the characteristics THEY find attractive in men (which I 100% agree with! – hence my confusion at this article): https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/understanding-men/can-a-smart-strong-successful-woman-get-a-smart-strong-successful-man/
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/understanding-men/are-women-good-and-men-bad/
I’ve always been attracted to intelligent, assertive, and ambitious men. Strong-headed, opinionated, even a bit arrogant men don’t bother me (in fact, I like them) – as long as they’re right. As I got older, I learned to distinguish who was right and who was delusional – i.e. who truly was intelligent, assertive, and ambitious, and who was just blowing smoke up their own ass. Once I learned how to read and see through people, my dating life got a whole lot easier. Since then, I’ve been in relationships with men who were/are as smart or smarter than I am, and who were more assertive and experienced than I am. Really not that difficult to get that if that’s what you need, and know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. My boyfriend is extremely intelligent, and a lot more knowledgable and experienced than me. I never seem to have a problem dating these kinds of guys, and having successful relationships with them. In fact, as I stated, I had more problems with dating and relationships BEFORE I realized this was the type of guy I needed to go for.
Also, I’m not following your 2% argument. The IQ bell curve is pretty much the same for women as it is for men. The top 2% of the male IQ population is mirrored by an approximately corresponding 2% of the female IQ population. So a woman with an IQ of 100, who insists she must date a man smarter than she, would, theoretically, be happy with a man with an IQ of 105, given that his other characteristics are satisfactory to her.
My point is that it’s not the intelligence, it’s your vibe and your attitude. If you’re going into dating with the attitude of always arguing or pointing out where the other person is wrong, of course you won’t be successful, and this goes for both men and women.
Also, not all smart people are argumentative smart-asses, and not all argumentative smart-asses are smart.
I do agree with you that one has to compromise — or, rather, pick one’s battles wisely when it comes to dating. I don’t like using the word compromise when it comes to relationships because it implies that one is somehow settling, which isn’t true.
Lali says
You are TOO FUNNY and that is why I read your column…
christina says
Do you consider yourself smarter than your wife? Honest question here.
John says
This is heartbreaking. The same virtues that are required for a successful relationship with a low intelligence person are the same for high. i think it might be more accurate to say that smart people are hard to be with because they cant do those things easily, rather than they cant at all.
when you’re smart as hell, and are with a woman who is also smart as hell, you have to practice a little intellectual suicide by accepting them as an “equal but different” party, rather than saying “Im brilliant and stubborn and so is she, so we will never work together”
Both parties (especially the male) need to realize that when in a relationship, it is from two to one, which means fully embracing something you don’t believe, ALL THE TIME. Yep, I said it. (Cringe now) If this isn’t done in an equitable way however, the other will harbor resentment. I am not suggesting you keep tabs, but if you see signs of shutting down or bad heat, step off and let the other person lead the narrative for awhile. Free and together is better than free and apart, especially if you love that person.
You’re damning smart people out of having relationships, and we already feel condemned. This is discouraging as hell. :/
ursula says
This is so depressing. Tired of dumbing myself down. Guess I can be even more miserable.
stillsingleat40 says
The problem with this advice is we are women, not men so Evan you have simply reverted to doing what men have always done – marrying someone you consider less intelligent than you (and I obviously cannot judge whether that is the case). Don’t think that women will be happy to make the same compromise because the world over women have always preferred more intelligent men and it is absolutely not the case that following a male trait of finding a less intelligent partner will make us happy because ultimately we love you with all your difficult traits. Give me the opinionated, argumentative, difficult man with a brain any day and I’ll love him to death. I’d take that with all the drawbacks any day of the week over someone less intelligent that will be a walkover. What men need in women is NOT what women need in men and never has been.
Karmic Equation says
You’re still operating under the assumption that “educated” = “intelligent”.
That is not the case.
Your assumption itself is a case in point. Intelligent people don’t make that assumption.
Stillsingleat40 says
Not quite. Yes there are many different types of intelligence but for me uneducated will never be of interest for a multitude of socioeconomic reasons that you and I will never agree on. I definitely do not want in a man what a man wants in a woman. The kind of man who sits around being passive and being permanently agreeable is definitely not the kind of man I like being around. I would much rather a strong intelligent man who stands his ground and can man up when the going gets tough and I think that is a big difference between men and women. I can see how intelligent alpha man and beta woman complement each other, strong woman and beta man less so as I can get that kind of support from my girlfriends. From a man I need intelligence, strength and the ability to stand up for himself and me if needed. Being intelligent and opinionated does not necessarily equate to wanting to have to take on the male role in a relationship. Equality in the workplace is great, in a relationship I don’t want to wear the pants. Not at all.
John says
Sounds like every since women earned rights to become equal to men in this new age, nothing make sence anymore. You females want to learn and do as men do but get up set when you cant find a man. This is a mans world while a woman is to be a man’s help mate along with bringing life on earth. Im not saying its ok to disrespect a women in anyway at all, but we are not made to be equal to each other. The man runs earth with hard work, protecting it with intelligeing. The woman is sit back relax, take care of smaller things like the house hold and tending the childern, yet can still enjoy life as men do. A man wants a women for what she is born to be, not for trying to keep up with what men do in the work place or how much she knows. Men and women are forgetting thier roles on earth
Zach says
Women arent attracted to intelligence, and thats what this article implies. Its aTOTAL contrivancy. Lets show some maturity and not censor a word for a womens chest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxFiu5Yy2Os
Official lyrics @ 00:16
“Convictionless existence”
@ 00:16
“Clandestine glass brightest students”
@ 00:16
“Confessed all this grade genius salience”
@ 00:16
“Try this sandwich weak tits hips”
Official lyrics @ 00:28
“Being so gorgeous”
@ 00:28
“Banging subconscious”
@ 00:28
“Pink insult born jealous”
Official lyrics @ 01:28
“On mutilation”
@ 01:28
“IQ your place sunny”
@ 01:28
“Argue yale blaze silently”
@ 01:28
“Our university”
Women in general arent clever. The only time they score higher on average than men is in a short window 11-14 years old. In all other age ranges they are inferior. Its a biological fact, and its because testosterone potentiate dapominergic metabolism in the frontal lobule cortices. In the modern world and the first, women have a 80% probability of reproducing, and it has basically nothing to do with their accomplishments. They simply dont compete against eachother directly to the same degree men do, period. Its a tournament species. Even in sports that dont require physical strength, for example a game similar to chess called starcraft 2, the participation of women is abyssal, as well as their performance. The reason why is biological, and thats what makes the culture the way it is. They dont have the same drives. They also have more brainspace dedicated to the processing of odor at the expense of others. Developing a child isnt energetically or nutritionally free either, hence why after you control for body mass, they have smaller brains. Saying brain size isnt a factor in intelligence is stupid. Its also what percentile is dedicated to the frontal lobes. But whales and dolphins……. stop, these animals DROWN if they dont switch hemispheres. They literally never sleep. Stop saying/thinking ignorant things because it absolves you the harsh reality that women in general measures of intelligence, are not as smart. Yes, they have advantages, but none that matter in regards to invention, and what makes civilization tick forward. Respect that, and by the way…… “IQ” implies knowledge, which implies know “your place”. I shouldnt find so wishy washy unrealistic vapidity at the expense of facts when looking for it in the search engine. Screw your political correctness, your subliminal fascism. Ive gone all my intellectually fit life experimenting with this concept, intelligence can be attractive. Heres the reality, it isnt, period.
Abdel says
Hello all,
While i was reading his article i was laughing on myself, thinking how is that can be possible I’m that type of man who has a INTJ personality type, and the matter is, i have even wrote down exactly the same article on how can a smart guy find the right girl for him and why it’s too difficult to do so …etc
I’m struggling to meet just someone who has this issue or just anyone who has got into it, and made it eventually finding his partner or just a close friend, because if you are one of us that means you have really been so selective, choosing your friends
Sheryl Zettner says
The thing is that I have dated dullards as well, and that is just as painful. Just in a different way.
I can appreciate the argument to this post though. Intellectuals are often egomaniacs, although probably not as bad as pseudointellectuals.
JLZ says
Who says you are smarter than me?
Gary says
its the same for guys as well is am also a bit of a intellectual and i like challenging the common held conceptions of the current day and i think the reason we have trouble with finding someone is sharp intellect is intimidating to loads of people especailly as we can see through all the crap someone tries to pull plus a lot of people dont like thinking away from their cultural conditioned way of doing so. in saying that we are not compatible with a lot of people which reduces the number of potential partners considerably however in saying that we are more likely to find someone unique which in my opinion is worth the wait. Patience is a virtue and and one with virtue is a good soul
Sorry for the rant just my theory
DD says
first of all…thanks for this insight…but my oh my…I prefer my very own company…I like her…it…my company…my life…and truly learned Not to need a man…or male support – as friends yes … they used to be a time in my formative years but somehow they turned out all like chicken shits…and without spine…well, I more or less had to raise myself…and I respect men…and women alike…and mind – respect my own life…I could hardly care about age…that I might be off the radar…or already unattractive for some guys by far… I could not give a fiddler’s fart! I d rather be alone than in the wrong company – relationship – partnership feeling lonely! Life is too short hoping that a man…or a woman for that matter could make me feel whole and complete…which I am already! And of course, I have been told I am tis or that…and oh, them high standards…indeed…highly sensitive and intelligent…so why again shall I put up with someone that has a difficult time accepting – respecting – loving me for who I am…when I do that already for myself??? When there is someone I would love to share my life – garden – company with is…is when I choose…when I want that…and marriage has to be divine…hardly only based on the physical – the material – the looks…that would get rather stale and boring after a while…truthfully, it is wonderful to be able to communicate…to trust…to enJoy each others company- the Good – the Bad, and the Ugly! It s the bridge between the physical and the spiritual that makes a true relationship…and for that I wait…even if I die in this life-time…since I am hardly afraid of death…because our bodies have all a time limit…but the Spirit will always come back 🙂 So what’s the bloody rush…the desperation…to FIND someone…Go and get lost…to be able to FIND Your Self – to Love and Like Your Self first before allowing the Right One in 🙂
petitchat says
I would rather be single than bored to tears with someone intellectually inferior to me. Consider how exhausting it is to be the only one that brings any entertainment or excitement to a partnership. Your assertion is woefully arrogant and out-of-touch. It also completely disregards years of evolutionary predilection for a mate capable of providing top-notch genes so their offspring have a fighting chance in this ruthless world. I guess women going to the sperm bank write off all the non-Mensa candidates, oh wait no-I am pretty sure the Harvard MBA sperm has already sprung 50 babies. Give me a break.
Lol says
this is funny because I actually just read that intelligent people are happier being single than settling.
antitara says
well, that intellectually thing always happens with me! There are plenty of men who are dying to reach me but I ended up finding more intellegent one! I had an experience to be shared that men at my same age are quite immatured than me! Ridiculous thing is that, they think they are smarter than me at a particular poin,when I’ve experienced that a long time ago! And if um quiet at any point,it doesn’t mean I don’t know or have no idea about that! It ended up pathetically with him because of his immaturity and moreover he can’t even maintain a relationship with his daily stuffs! He was totally screwed up and I had this mistake that I put him on that level that he never ever deserved!!!
Crystal says
I can’t decide if this article is trying to convince women to date down and breed with the stupid or if it’s telling me that I make men miserable. Oh well. If I’m wrong I don’t want to be right. #smartguysarethebest.
Me says
Then I do not want a relatioship. If I can’t have a genius, I am honestly not interested in anyone else. So yeah, wonderful, I rather stay single than having a boyfriend that I don’t find attractive only because he isn’t that smart.
Paul says
Not sure if sarcasm or not, but, if not, you definitely do not want a genius. And, to be honest, most geniuses don’t want anyone else, either. If someone is truly a genius according to their IQ, they are very unlikely to be in relationships. To them, relationships are distracting from their work. Also, geniuses tend to be very arrogant, as well. It’s an extreme end of IQ. It’s unwise to date someone who is a complete fool, but it’s just as unwise to date someone who falls on the other end of the spectrum. There are, however, a lot of really intelligent people that don’t actually qualify as “geniuses.” If by “genius” you just mean someone in graduate school or something, then, that’s fine and isn’t that big of a deal. But, if, however, you’re really looking for a real genius, then you’ll likely be disappointed. Both because they’re extremely rare, but also because they’re commonly severely self-centered. But, if that’s what you want, have at it.
JAG says
So, am I screwed?
I’m an intellectual and, I’ve been told, highly intelligent man. I struggle with depression, but I don’t think I’m a drag or a bummer. I meet and date a lot of educated women, but the relationships don’t last long and I feel like most of my exes never valued me.
I’m in my mid 20s, I don’t want children, and I am an atheist, if that helps paint a picture.
Should I stop looking for the kind of women that would want to hear about the fascinating book on anthropology I read last week?
Who should I date for long-term happiness and a strong relationship ?
Marika says
JAG,
I think the idea is not to restrict your search to only highly intelligent women. Give all women a chance if you’re attracted to them and they’re nice. Because, if you narrow your search to only very intelligent women (as well as those who are okay with no kids and who are either atheists themselves or don’t mind that you are), you’re really limiting your options & you may find you get really frustrated.
Try to broaden your mind beyond intelligence, and if you do meet a wonderful woman who’s not that interested in anthropology, maybe you can join an anthropology interest group and discuss that topic outside your relationship (for instance).
When I first started dating after my divorce, I went for men in similar fields to me. After a while I found that wasn’t a great idea, as they were telling me stories I’d heard before, and sometimes our views differed on work and that almost created some competitiveness. So I’ve actually found I get along better with people who work in completely different fields. So then I’m learning something new and we are enriching each other’s lives in different ways. If I want to talk about my area of expertise, I have work, friends etc. What we want in a partner should be different to what we want in a friend. A friend is someone who’s fun to hang out with for short periods of time, a partner is someone we ideally will want to live with day in and day out.
It’s unlikely that everyday you’ll want to discuss highly intelligent topics with your girlfriend.
Beentheredonethat says
Actually no, smart men do like smart women, at least if the wives of the men at Mensa meetings are anything to go by. At that level of intelligence people aren’t moody, difficult etc, it’s a stereotype, of anything they’re overly empathetic and hyperaware of peoples feelings to the point of being afraid of offending people. Psudeo intellectuals on the other hand…
Evan Marc Katz says
You mean “pseudo.”
Katie says
Did you guys even read the article? Or just the title? I’ve browsed through the comments here 90% fall into one of two categories:
a) Women asserting they won’t date dumbasses and they would rather be alone forever.
b) Men lamenting mean old Evan picking on intelligent dudes.
Evan never said date dummies! People have all different kinds of intelligence, and if you listen to people you can figure out what type they are. Often I think people balance better with an intelligence type that’s not your own.
I feel like my social intelligence is high. My bf has a high observational and creative intelligence. We balance each other really well 🙂 Plus, both of us are high in emotional intelligence, and I think that helps a lot too.
Karl R says
Katie,
I think you’ve just expressed the frustration Evan constantly feels.
K says
Great article, but there is a major flaw with your argument that fundamentally invalidates it — You associate intelligence with lack of agreeableness, and that that is simply not true. At least, not to a significant degree that one can use the word “intelligence” to accompany both. Out of the big five personality factors, agreeableness is one that is least (not) associated with intelligence. “And when two people who are that smart, that opinionated, and that strong-willed get together, it should obvious that sparks will fly — and tensions will mount.” — When it’s only a few intelligent people, who are not significantly “opinionated and strong-willed”, it’s quite a different story. Might I also remind you that people who are below the 50 percentile can be just as, if not more, opinionated. Conversing with such people is often more frustrating than with someone at the 80th percentile, who is able to make coherent and logical arguments to backup their opinions. I’m not sure about yourself, but I would definitely date the latter.
Shonya says
Goodness, you have a very simplistic view of yourself and others. Lots of generalizations and missed opportunities for more complex understanding of human behavior (not to mention, self-awareness). As just one example, you lump qualities together that shouldn’t be, ie, all smart men are driven and know their “worth.” Worth to who? In what context? All of them driven? Hardly. I didn’t read the comments, but I think you demonstrate in your article that there are many different types of intelligence, so when people speak of this, they need to start by defining what intelligence or being intellectual means to them. Male or female, we are not all on the same page when speaking about this. Sorry, but I’m inclined to think your article is much more about self-worth and the stories people tell themselves to get it than it is about intellectual or smart people.
Lumin says
Your article assumes that the woman is of average intelligence or slightly higher.
Where as most women attracted to geniuses would most likely be above average. And any woman who has a genius level iq would have a harder time relating to men not of genius lever iq as you suggested. Maybe you should try and be little more specific who your audience is next time.
Katie says
But according to you, your wife has a man who is smarter than her. So it seems like a bit of a contradiction.
Paul Lashomb says
“And I can’t disagree with you: attraction is NOT a choice. Yet if the very thing you’re attracted to never leads to the relationship of your dreams, don’t you think it may be wise to make some adjustments? I think so.”
But isn’t this a contradiction? If it’s something that’s “not” a choice, then how do you choose to “make some adjustments?”
Also, some of the descriptions that you use for males that are highly logical aren’t true of all rational thinking males. Some will be cold and self-centered. Others, though, might be cold and insecure. It’s really a mix. For instance, as a PhD student in Physics, I’ve encountered many different very, VERY smart individuals. However, very few of them were ever self-centered. The ones that were, were usually extremely intelligent. The rest, however, myself included, were all quite insecure. Getting PhD’s in Physics, one of the harder degrees to obtain of any field, and, yet, many of us are insecure. I’ve seen a great variety in personalities and character traits among my peers. Some of them are very kind-hearted, some of them thoughtful, etc. So, while the that is intelligent will likely be more logical than “feelings”, he won’t necessarily be narcissistic, difficult, self-obsessed, coldly logical man. Even then, if he is “coldly logical”, for instance, teach him how to “feel.” That’s part of what makes relationships important is that we are able to give the good parts of ourselves to each other. Give the good parts of yourself to the other person who is lacking them. That’s how you grow. If you’re not growing, I feel like you’re missing out on one of the more important parts of a relationship.
Paul says
I think also a distinction should be made when the phrase “intelligent” is used. I think why everyone is getting confused or mixed responses is because intelligent means something very different to everyone. In fact, “genius” is kind of overly used, now, as well. Someone who is a “genius” according to their IQ make up a VERY small portion of the population. You’re looking at less than 1% of the population. So, to find someone that’s attractive, wants kids, etc. AND is a genius is a pointless endeavor. I’ve known some undergraduate students that were more intelligent than some graduate students that I know. Also, it depends on what field you’re in if you want to get into which individual will have a higher IQ. So, for instance, if you want someone really smart, then go for someone in Engineering or Physics that’s getting their doctorate or masters. Those are very intelligent individuals. However, they’re not “geniuses” still. There may be one or two of them in those places every once in a while, but they’re still not “geniuses.” I think this is important because many of the physicists that I’ve encountered are in very good relationships and many are married. It’s totally possible. However, it is true that there are also true that the more intelligent the person is the higher the likelihood that they’ll have difficulty with relationships — or, simply not want them, altogether. If they are actual “geniuses”, then they likely don’t want something as “distracting” as a relationship, to begin with. So, yes, dating an intelligent person might be difficult; however, that’s no reason to give up on them. That’s just silly. You won’t find a guy that will fit all of the items of your “checklist.” However, relationships with intelligent men can still be fulfilling. It’s just that in some areas, it will take work. But this is true of ANY relationship. There will always be some areas where you’ll need to work. If the guy is less intelligent, then that comes with its own set of problems. It just depends on which problems you’re willing to deal with and which areas you are willing to grow in.
Evan Marc Katz says
Not a contradiction at all. Just because you’re attracted to a genius narcissist doesn’t mean you have to date him. There are plenty of women I am attracted to whom I’ve weaned myself off thanks to experience and wisdom. And if I can do it, readers can, too.
Paul says
So, essentially, one should date someone they’re not attracted to?
Callie says
Or not date EVERYONE one is attracted to. Most people have a variety of what they are attracted to and maybe should consider that some options aren’t the healthiest for them and should not pursue them.
That being said if one is ONLY attracted to genius narcissists, and they constantly find themselves in bad relationships because of it (narcissists are not usually the best and most giving of partners, they also often end up being rather emotionally abusive and can often gaslight their partners – and I’m speaking of all genders here), then I do think they should stop dating for a while and seek some therapy to work on finding other more healthy attraction options.
Evan Marc Katz says
Not exactly sure what black and white world you live in, Paul.
If you LOVE steak but your doctor says you will die by continuing to eat it regularly, are you forced to go on a hunger strike? Never enjoy a meal again?
Of course not.
You are left with a thousand meals that are not steak. Some taste bad, but the majority of them, with proper seasoning and preparation, actually taste great.
I’m merely pointing out that if the people you are the MOST attracted to have NEVER turned out to be good partners, perhaps it’s wise to open up to other partners who might not be AS blindingly attractive, but still quite attractive, and, more importantly, have the potential to be compatible. This is a foundational precept of healthy relationships and any person who willfully misinterprets this to suggest that I’m saying to “settle” or date someone unattractive is either obtuse or disingenuous.
You don’t necessarily marry the HOTTEST PERSON you’ve ever met. You marry an attractive person who’s a great PARTNER.
Paul Lashomb says
What kind of black and white world I live in? Lol That’s how attraction works; you’re either attracted to something or you’re not. If you’re into redheads, for instance, you’re not just going to stop being attracted to redheads just because someone tells you that it’s not a good idea — if they were to come up with one.
The way that would be more meaningful is, rather than telling people to stop being attracted to what they find attractive — which is just something you can’t really get away from as it’s part of who you are –, that they should at least be aware of problems that can occur and where they should be prepared if they choose to continue going after the type of person they’re attracted to. Nobody is a steak. There’s always going to be something that you’ll have to put up with about someone. Dating “dumb guys” isn’t going to fix that; they’ll just have their own set of problems that women will have to deal with. So, rather than advising them to date men they’re not attracted to and end up with just as many problems as they usually run into — which, once again, will likely cause the relationship to fail again –, they should, instead, be aware of the problems that women who date “smarter men” face and to be prepared to face those issues. Because facing issues that come up is a large bulk of a relationship. If you date someone “dumb”, they’ll be dumb an it will cause problems. Date someone “smarter”, and they could be narcissistic, etc. and it will cause problems. You don’t get away from these problems. Trying to change what you’re attracted to won’t make a difference because you’ll still end up dating people that come with their own set of issues. You can’t ever get around that.
And I never said you marry the “hottest person”; I simply said that, if you’re attracted to someone or attracted to something about them, then you can’t really fix that; what you can fix, however, is working on yourself or finding a person who is constantly working on improving themselves, as well, and working on these areas that can be a source of tension.
However, a distinction could also be made between things that you’re “attracted to” and things that you just “want” in another person. As an example, suppose I was attracted to women with red hair. Then that’s just a part of who I am and I can’t change that. However, suppose that I am also looking for someone that knows exactly what I’m thinking. Apart from being an ideal feature, it’s not so much something that I’m “attracted to” so much as it’s just something I want. I wouldn’t find the other person “unattractive” if they couldn’t read my mind. That’s an example of something that I should stop looking for as it’s not only something that I won’t ever find, but I probably wouldn’t actually want, anyways, if I found someone like that. But I’m not changing what I’m attracted to. But being told that I need to stop looking for redheads and date blondes, instead, since redheads can be crazy — pardon the stereotype used to make the point –, then I’d be much better off with a blonde and should stop looking for redheads. Instead, I should look for the redhead if I’m attracted to her, and learn to handle how “crazy” she is and work on myself. Especially if she’s willing to do the same and work on herself to be with me with all of my annoying features. That’s how love works. You don’t run away because it’s hard; you acknowledge the problems and work towards resolving them, just like you would with anyone else.
Jim says
Many of us men are very smart to stay single as well with much more money in our pockets too.
Tommy says
Ignoring the hell there would be to pay if you were to write a post with the genders reversed, maybe consider that it isn’t so much about the fact that the men are intelligent but that the women are opinionated, workaholic, egomaniacs (as you framed it). That just sounds like a person who has A LOT of growing up to do, who is maybe used to expecting to have her cake and eat it too (which is to say, unreasonable and entitled). Forget it: it’ll probably just be easier to dismiss my retort as that of a moody, distant, intelligent man who isn’t deserving of all the love your readers are (if they only grew up and learned to compromise; yeah, reading between the lines, i see what you did there).
Lee Lee says
I’m more “intellectually” intelligent than my husband and he knows it. AND loves that about me. If I start to bore him with my theory’s he kindly tells me to save it for my forums.
He is more emotionally intelligent than I am, and is above average intelligence IQ wise. I’m learning from him, and he learns from me. He hired me to help him with some editing of his business content, and He helps me with empathic listening and social skills.
Weve both grown tremendously bc we use our strengths as a team, and see our weakness to be dealt with as a team.
I couldn’t be happier with my choice for a life partner. I spent years chasing the man that had it all- but I couldn’t relax and be myself around them. My husband calls me Kooky and smiles when he says it. I don’t need him to share every interest and get every joke. I need him to love me for who I am and show up 100% authentically as himself for himself and for our family.
Ps, I have friends that I can spin around in my head with for fun. It’s nice to have multiple outlets!
Noneya Bizzniss says
I am straight. I have even experimented to know. I would suck a tranny girls dick every single day for a women who could hold an intelligent conversation with me. I can’t find a woman who can hold a real conversation about anything. I don’t even care anymore, I just want kids, and I am really alarmed at the seeming IQ of available partners. It makes me too afraid to want to try.
Clara says
Interesting article.
Different opinions ðŸ˜
Anne Laughton says
Dearest Evan ,
It’s an interesting article for Americans . You really made some great points . A little about me …I have a 147 iq and I’m a world traveler . I’ve been married twice and men are attracted to me no doubt because I’m attractive and very feminine . They find out later how smart I am and they seem to love it . But I have had both .. average men and brilliant men . The brilliant men are the best providing they are European . For instance , I find German men , Dutch men , Egyptian men to be very smart . American men lack sex appeal in so many areas and I find a lot of them cry baby’s . They have no clue how to even hold a conversation and ask a women out . The older men from the fifties are much more interesting but they are just too old for me . I’ve been single too long and I know it’s because I’m in America . As soon as I go to Europe , I’m on a different play ground . I can’t wait to take my next trip . Men are more educated , romantic and love the idea of commitment. I guess it also goes for European women as well .
EM says
Wow, this article, and this thread, is just overflowing with over-generalizations. No, I’m sorry, not every intelligent man is self-absorbed, short-tempered, and moody (and most intelligent people do not make over-generalizations like that…). It sounds like the author is confusing geniuses for ibankers or business execs or other *conventionally* successful and ambitious people. Ambition/social success is very different from intelligence, even if some modicum of intelligence is needed for them; career paths like business tend to reward confidence and decisiveness and competitiveness and people skills more than they do brains. Try looking for reflective or thoughtful intelligent types; you might have more luck.
Cathalei says
While the article has good points, there are certain implications that need to be jettisoned. I am not sure if it’s because of sour grapes, but let’s be honest: You will want certain qualities in your partner and it wouldn’t make you selfish, narcissistic or overly picky. These implications are: Attractive women are selfish, crazy drama queens who will cheat. Intelligent people are arrogant assholes who will look down on you. Fit people are show-offs who use you as a trophy. But average ones are always better. If it’s so, many would go to street and pick a random person who is “average” in everything, then they would have hit the jackpot, no? The truth is, you have to have something in common with your partner. If you feel you have to censor yourself constantly to accommodate your partner and make them understand it’s not a good relationship to be in. You need to find different type of partners.
These “intelligent men” are not aliens from other planets. They have flaws like everyone else but that doesn’t make them incapable of being good partners. (Plus, there are women who show similar characteristics as well, it’s probable that these women would like them just the way they are.) For every intelligent man that’s self-obsessed and narcissistic, there are intelligent men who are tired of being assumed to be those things just because of this trait. Besides, there are plenty of those who have these traits who are not all that brilliant.
Of course looking for “better-looking, smarter, richer, stronger and what not” type will be to one’s detriment, not only from a realistic angle but just as vital self-esteem angle. If you perceive your partner superior to you in every aspect, it’ll alter the balance drastically, you will put him on a pedestal (in case we are talking about women as this article suggests, for men this is also valid) and feel useless. What do you bring to the table anyway? This is a surefire path to disappointment. Looking for someone similar in some aspects and complementing would be way better.
Captain Harlock says
While at a repasse after a funeral, I once told a relative that the most probable reason I’m still single (and will always be) is the fact that I don’t date others in my profession (science and academia). I mentioned, as an analogy, how a lot of folks in show biz don’t date or marry other folks in show biz. The most evident reason is that they desire a partner who is not part of that “scene”, if you will. And we know that the culture, scene, or whatever you might want to call it, does breed a lot of dysfunctional personalities, a lot of drama, and a lot of BS that not only carries into the personal life, but also diffuses into the gossipy circles and cliques that are inherent to the scene.
Academia is no different. When you have all of these very smart and very educated folks together, you tend to get a feel for the culture that one has to conform to actually starting back to when we’re all getting our advanced degrees. This has an effect on how you view the world and how you view others (just like to get up the ladder in showbiz, there may be a lot of things that you are required to do that you may not feel comfortable with). The ivory towers of academia also have their traditions, rituals, brownnosing, and hierarchy, just like Hollyweird. Perhaps a partner who is not a part of that culture or scene is like a respite and a sanctuary.
Rr says
This is generalizing. It’s not fair nor accurate to do so.
Mahsa says
The issue is not that smart women should consider settling with lesser smart men. The issue is men do not stand women who are smarter than them in a romantic relationship.