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My boyfriend complains about stuff such as “what if years from now, I have a job that I hate?” And I have to listen to this as if no one in the world hates their current state of employment! He also takes his friends out (about 4 times) for wine tasting, but I had to ask him for months before he did that once with me. I think I am supportive because I do listen to him complain about everything that stems from his insecurities. He leaves me with comments like, “you make me so happy,” “I don’t know what I will do if you leave,” and “I love you more than anything.” I also try to help out financially when he complains about being poor. But I never feel like things are connecting.
We are both students and live about 5 hours apart from each other. Whenever I visit him, we have lunch with his friends at least once. I also had to hear about him go on and on about how he will miss his friends once they graduate and leave. One time, I was trying to tell him something serious about my parents but he was upset that I wasn’t focusing on how his friend will move away in 3 months. The good part about the relationship might be that we get along pretty well and he does seem to love me at least emotionally. But the sex has not been earth shattering, his self esteem is bringing me down too, and he is more excited and thoughtful towards his friends. My boyfriend is 25, and I am a few years older than him. It may take some time but how long should I wait?
Shelley
Dear Shelley,
Before I answer your question, I’m hoping you could answer mine.
So, I’m working at this marketing company for the past year and a half.
To answer your question, answer mine.
When I started there, I thought it was a dream job. Yes, I had to commute. Yes, the pay was low. But I really thought there was potential for growth there. Now I’m having some second thoughts.
First of all, I work my ass off for these people and I rarely get any positive feedback. And if I’m not getting a better salary, the least I could get is the pleasure of knowing I’m doing my job well.
Second of all, I’m not that crazy about the way I’m treated by my boss. He’s kind of moody, and I get the sense that he prefers my co-workers’ company to mine. Maybe it’s because he’s known them longer, but he’ll make lunch plans and weekend plans and rarely thinks to include me.
Third, the job isn’t as fun as I thought it would be. I’ve heard that in life you should hope for an 80/20 rule — 80% of the time you’re enjoying yourself; 20% is “work,” but this feels like the opposite. Most of it is drudgery — paperwork, meetings, passing things through the hierarchy of the organization. It’s just not what I thought I was signing up for.
Finally, the company is kind of poorly managed. There’s a lot of drama and office politics that prevent it from running smoothly. I know that I’m doing a decent job here — my boss has told me as much — but I just can’t help but feel that I don’t have a strong future at this company. One of my colleagues will get a raise or a promotion before I do, so I don’t feel that secure, fulfilled or happy at this company. What should I do?
When you read this email, the answer is quite obvious, isn’t it?
At which point do you take responsibility for staying in an unsatisfying relationship?
From here, the only thing that’s keeping you with your boyfriend is your sunk costs — the year and a half you’ve already invested with him. But would you rather invest another six months in a depressed, unemployed, shaky-self-esteem, 25-year-old frat boy who actually says “Bros versus Hoes” to his own girlfriend? Or would you rather cut him loose to find – I don’t know – a guy in his thirties who is happy, treats you well, and makes you feel like a top priority in his life?
Any reader of this blog knows that I don’t defend men who treat women inadequately.
By the same token, at which point do you take responsibility for staying in an unsatisfying relationship?
I say it should be now.
The fictional employee above should not ask for a raise, try to work harder, or make nice-nice with his boss. He should find a new company that surrounds him with high-caliber team members, provides stimulating work for good pay, and offers the potential opportunity for growth. If he stays at his dissatisfying company for 30 years, it’s nobody’s fault but his.
The good news is that you’re young. You’ll bounce back fast. And I think you’ll be quite surprised at just how easy it is to replace this indifferent slacker of yours. Good luck.
Steve says
would you rather invest another six months in a depressed, unemployed, shaky-self-esteem, 25-year-old frat boy who actually says “Bros versus Hoes” to his own girlfriend? Or would you rather cut him loose to find — I don’t know — a guy in his thirties who is happy, treats you well, and makes you feel like a top priority in his life?
That says it all.
Diana says
I guess I’m old school or something. Any “man” who would tell his long-term girlfriend it’s, “Bros before hoes” is seriously lacking in several departments. And I wouldn’t stay around to find out which ones!
Bill says
I would say the age difference makes a big difference. He is younger than you and i would suspect. You the girl is in a normal career while he is still in college. Those are two realities.
Sophie says
Lol, the reason that Evan is such an outstanding dating coach is that he can break down vexing issues in simple terms SO WELL! Waiting for an unmature man to grow up not only has no payoff, it is doing yourself a huge disservice. Men can take decades to grow mature, and you’ll be amazed to find many NEVER do. Quit the Peter Pan today.
Eathan says
Age probably has something to do with it, but I also think there is a sense of belong among guys. Women do the same thing, they just call it something different. Women stick together 3 times more than men do.
With that said, men will outgrow it more than women will.
Katarina Phang says
I find the mentality of men giving their friends “more priority” quite common, actually. My hubby has always been the same way. And at least one of my clients attest the same thing. It’s especially common among the alpha male.
Men seem to say yes much easier and faster when their friends ask them to do something for or with them or go somewhere. But if it’s their women, it seems that they can always wait or just leave the requests unanswered for months. They will usually say, “I don’t know…we’ll see.” And you heard nothing.
If it’s their buddies, they just need to be asked once and they will mark the calendar and a schedule/commitment is made. It’s that simple.
I find it very frustrating myself. Anyone else finds it the same way? My feeling is men put so much importance on their “place in the world,” their social status/hierarchy. Their relationships with their peers represents that. Sometimes it appears that they care about it much more so than their relationship with their SOs.
It’s so different to women. We put our marriage/relationship above anything else. Wonder if Evan agrees with this assessment from a male POV.
LBC says
Yes, I bought fishing poles and tackle back when I was married and for 2 years asked if he might like to go fishing on Saturday. As soon as I broke my neck and jaw, he took the poles and tackle that I had bought, but we never used, and went fishing with his friend. We are now divorced, thank God. He never appreciated anything I ever did.
Ron says
I have found the opposite. I have yet to meet a fellow guy who wouldn’t push his best friend under a bus for some tail.
Marc says
At least he’ll have his bros’ shoulders to cry on after you dump his socially inept ass.
Steve says
@Marc #6
LOL. I love your wit. Your last blog post literally had me laughing out loud :). Good luck on your book. I will certainly buy a copy.
Helen says
Marc 6: Thanks to Steve’s comment, I read your blog and just burst out laughing. 😀 Maybe karma will come back to bite her in the patootie.
As for the guy in this entry… only one word for him. Loser.
Sayanta says
Marc-
I just read your blog and laughed so hard the librarian had to tell me to shut up.
Karl R says
Katarina Phang, (#8)
I think you’re over-analyzing your husband’s behavior.
If someone invites me to do something I want to do, I put it on my calendar immediately. If someone invites me to do something that’s less interesting than watching TV, “I don’t know … we’ll see.”
Debbie says
After 30 yrs. of marriage, I have chosen to end a marriage for the following reasons. A lack of love, respect & my husband was terribly negative towards everything in life, mostly me. He basically thought I should make him happy, but we all know we can’t make anyone happy except for our-selves. Over the yrs., I noticed how women show a lack respect for themselves by sleeping w/guys on the lst or 2nd date, dropping everything for a guy you barely know & then wondering why your so unhappy. My sage “advice on a love relationship” if your relationship isn’t showing at least 60%/40% in the give & take department…………move on & find the right guy! Remember, your partner should want to make you just as happy as you want to make your partner!
Ruby says
“Bros before hoes”? Mediocre sex, and he loves his friends more than his girlfriend…perhaps he is actually gay?
Selena says
If one chooses to have a bf/gf who lives 5 hrs. away, I don’t see how you can expect them to make you a priority. They have friends, a full life where they live – they only see you occasionally. The above sounds like a casual relationship and if the letter writer wants something more than that she’s better off looking for someone out of college and closer to home.
Emily says
I would move on & not waste any more time with that guy! Let him go so he can have more time for his “bros”!!
Goldie says
Selena #14: “They have friends, a full life where they live — they only see you occasionally.”
I was about to write the same thing, but then had second thoughts, because the man has other “amazing” qualities – the depression, the whining, the way he talks about his own problems for hours but cuts her off when she tries to share hers, his various insecurities (“I don’t know what I’ll do if you leave”? Really?) All of these are definitely red flags to me, and grounds for dumping. I am not a huge fan of dramatic males.
Also, “bros before hos” is really, really a wrong choice of words. What was he thinking??
Not red flags, IMO:
1) Spending more time on friends than on the OP. In addition to what Selena said, in the guy’s mind, his friends are moving away forever in three months, while his girlfriend, on the other hand, isn’t going anywhere. So, for now, friends are priority. Ummm, can’t say I blame him.
2) Wrong choice of birthday gift – some people are just unable to pick the right gift to save their lives. How do I know? – because I am one of them. My X and I were together for 22 years. Most years, we gave each other birthday and Christmas gifts. Both of us managed to miss the target pretty much every time. I still have the bow-shaped CZ necklace he gave me. And he spent three years trying to stop Playboy from renewing the annual subscription I’d given him. It didn’t help that each side was pretty happy with things that they already had, and had no clue what they wanted as their next gift 🙂 I’d let it slide – some of us are just really bad mind-readers. If the pen is still upsetting the OP, I’ll take it 🙂
Selena says
@#16
Goldie, I just see this situation as not so much about the guy’s negative traits, as it is more of a casual relationship to the him than it is to the LW. Personally, given the circumstances I’d feel calling this fellow “my boyfriend” to be a bit of a stretch.
BeenThruTheWars says
Goldie #16: You hit the nail with #2, although I disagree with the reason. Here, it’s not just a matter of her boyfriend not knowing her that well or connecting with what she’d like. A pen is an inherently unromantic gift. A man who is in love with a woman and views her as his “one and only” would give flowers, perfume, jewelry, write a poem — something of that ilk. A pen, a jogging suit, electronic gadget — nice gifts, all, but romantic? No, no matter how expensive or chic, those are not and will never be romantic gifts. It’s not about the money: even a mix tape, where he’s sharing what he values, would be better than a pen.
My husband always gets me jewelry, except last Christmas — when he gave me one of those digital picture frames. I instinctively went, “Uh-oh” — until I saw that he’d loaded it up with all his favorite pictures of the two of us together, wedding and honeymoon photos, etc. And THEN he surprised me with a necklace.
A dear friend told me that on her first anniversary with her husband, he gave her a crystal vase. Once she covered her disappointment and told him how nice she thought it was, he said, “I’m going to keep it full of flowers for you, forever.” And he has — for twenty years.
I see no indications in this woman’s post that her “boyfriend” is romantically interested in her. There is no sexual spark according to her; he doesn’t make time for her; he appears to view her primarily as a therapist substitute and ATM. Definitely time to move on to greener pastures. He won’t change, even if she asks him to, because while he may need her and be emotionally dependent on her, he doesn’t love her in the way in which she wants to be loved, and after this much time, it’s doubtful he ever will.
Ruby says
As far as the long distance thing goes, it’s not ideal, but does not necessarily doom the relationship. I have a friend who has been in a relationship for a year with someone who lives that far away and they both have kids, to boot. My friend’s s.o. will be moving with the kids to live with her in a few months.
In Shelley’s case, I think it’s more about priorities, maturity, and her boyfriend’s personal issues (whatever they are), that is causing the problem. “Bros before hoes” is more than just a wrong choice of words, it’s an excuse, or perhaps inability, to be closer to her. The pen gift is just another example of her boyfriend’s inability to really understand her and her needs.
Sayanta says
#19, Ruby-
Wow- that sounds like an amazing guy. I’m in Jersey, and when NYC guys find out, they squeak with horror, because there is just NO WAY they’re coming all the way to Jz for a date, ever.
PS- as you can see, my dating pool’s shrunk considerable bc of that.
Goldie says
#18, BeenThruTheWars, I guess we come in all shapes and sizes, don’t we? 🙂 Personally I do not like getting jewelry or perfume as gifts. I have a very specific taste in those and I don’t see the point for the man to spend his time and money on something I’m not going to wear. Then again, I’m not sentimental at all. I’d be happy to receive a practical gift like an electronic gadget, I just draw the line at kitchen appliances 😉
Selena says
My guess was she was hoping for jewelry after a year and half together. That would have said boyfriend. A silver, handmade, expensive ballpoint pen is more “dearest friend”.
Really though, isn’t a 10 hour round trip for mediocre sex enough reason to move on?
hunter says
“Bros before Hoes”?……How insensitive of him to say that…
Stacy says
Sayanta #20
I sense resentment. In fact, NYC women are the same way. Many people in the city don’t own a car, they’d need to rent it to come to NJ for a date or rely on lacking and confusing NJ public transportation system, both is cumbersome and expensive, and with many local options available – not worth it. Such is the reality.
Annie says
Seems like this is a case of two people who want a “relationship” but don’t really want it with each other.
Sayanta says
Stacy-
I go to NYC to meet people all the time. If I can do it to meet guys, I’m sure they can do it to meet me. NJ Transit- been taking it for 10 years- it’s not rocket science- not saying this to be snippy, but because of your description of it as ‘confusing.’ Then again, if a guy can’t figure out how to use a train, I’m better off not dating him. ;-p
The thing is this- I’m incurring expenses to meet people- they know this- and they (who’ve had more employment luck than I have recently) can’t do the same?
I mean- everyone has a preference- everyone wants to meet locals. But I find it amusing that I’ve known people who’ve had relationships while one’s in Cali and the other’s in NY, and act like NJ and NY are different countries.
ReluctantDater says
I agree with Evan & with everyone else’s comments – leaving him seems like the best plan in this case. That said, having just read Evan’s “Why He Disappeared”, I just wanted to point out this one tiny thing that stood out for me in the OP’s letter.
In the past my boyfriend told me that his friend could always make him feel better when I sometimes make him feel worse …
This is something we women need to be cautious of: make sure we’re a *positive* influence – that we are someone our BF feels good around – that we’re not always getting on his case, looking for solutions, looking for ways to fix him, etc. There certainly seemed to be plenty of other issues with this relationship, but it’s not too surprising that if the guy feels worse around his GF that he would go hang out with friends who DO make him feel good.
Ruby says
RD #27
Not that I disagree with EMK, but it doesn’t sound like Shelley is doing her guy a disservice if he also says, “you make me so happy,” “I don’t know what I will do if you leave,” and “I love you more than anything.” As she says, “I feel like I give him more sobering perspective as opposed to, “it’s OK. Let’s drink beer.” He sounds immature and insecure, and it doesn’t sound like he’s a such a positive influence for her.
JerseyGirl says
ReluctantDater, i think this guy is all about doing what makes *him* feel good. I don’t really think this is a true case of a girlfriend berating her partner and making him feel bad as it is an immature 25 year old guy that has no clue how to respect his female partners right now.
I hope the writer of the letter dumps this guy. Too many girls setle for a guy because they are afraid to ask for more from life.
Christie Hartman, PhD says
@ReluctantDater (27): I too noticed that quote. It makes you wonder what the other side of the story is. Overall, yes, this dude sounds really immature and not worth sticking with. Yet, she’s stuck with him for a year and a half, and I don’t hear her taking much responsibility for her role in things.
Joe says
As Goldie proves, there are both men and women who don’t mind practical gifts. I’d rather have something I can use, than have it sit on a shelf or in a drawer somewhere collecting dust. Each time I use it I think of the person who gave it to me. What could be more romantic than that? (It’s all in the attitude–obviously, if you accept the gift with a mean spirit, you will think mean thoughts.)
Goldie says
@ Selena #22: “Really though, isn’t a 10 hour round trip for mediocre sex enough reason to move on?”
I have to agree. 5 hrs one way is mind-boggling. I cannot think of anyone, except for my immediate family, that I’d visit on a regular basis if they lived that far away. The wear and tear on the car, the gas prices, and anyway, why doesn’t he ever come visit her, for a change?
Joe: “Each time I use it I think of the person who gave it to me.” – my thoughts exactly!
Bill says
@JerseyGirl – “Too many girls setle for a guy because they are afraid to ask for more from life.”
People settle for less than what they want in order to date someone who would impress there friends and feel validated by society.
Leigh says
This guy obviously sounds immature…life is short…there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Let him have his “bros” – take your ho ass out there and find someone who appreciates you. And possibly doesn’t call you a ho 😉
http://www.notcomplicated.wordpress.com
Kat Wilder says
Yeah, she should kiss this guy goodbye for several reasons. But, I, too noticed what @ ReluctantDater (27) noticed. And, this kind of thinking – My boyfriend commented during lunch how he wants to throw his friend a birthday party. I said, “wow, I wish you had done that for me.” – is WAY immature. Not to say that she shouldn’t want a birthday party, but this isn’t the way to get one. Right?
And, I love a man who has close male friendships; many women get tweaked by that. Certainly not a “bros before hoes” mentality, but women should encourage and support male friendships. We all need time with our own gender to feel reconnected to that side of ourselves. And, we shouldn’t look to our BFs or GFs to be our “everything” – that’s just too much responsibility.
So, yeah, ditch the guy. But change your attitude, too.
Joe says
Hmm…you have a point Kat. Would the OP rather his close friends were female? 😉
Sharon S. says
I would have been heading for the door after the first “bros before hoes” comment! Of course when I was really young and really green I may have put up with it more…not now though.
Evan, I just love the way you answered her question with a question…just perfect and wise. What a great way to put the situation into crystal clear focus and make your point loud and clear…cheers to you.
Seductress says
You are stuck in the middle of the “hoping things will change”, and “I have a year 1/2 invested with this guy” pond and you are sinking.
My question is simple: What do you believe you are worth? If you continue to accept the current situation, you’ve asked for it.
He has showed you time and again who he is. Believe him!
Honey says
The pens and kitchen equipment comments made me laugh! Jake LOVES fancy pens, and I have gotten the following as gifts from him at one point or another: Crock Pot, air popper, Cuisinart. He has gotten things from me like portable DVD player, backup drive for computers, digital picture frame. What makes a gift romantic is knowing the other person well enough that you can pick something you know they’d love (I am a hobby chef and he loves electronic gadgets).
Though to be fair, each of us keeps (and constantly maintains) a 4-5 page, single-spaced list of everything we can think of wanting at just about every price point. So that’s more than enough to be able to pick something you know they’d like without giving away the surprise.
Goldie says
@ Honey #39: I think it really depends on the state your relationship is in. If a guy’s marriage is falling apart to begin with, then giving his wife a birthday gift that she can use to make him dinner isn’t going to help 😉 tho I guarantee she will think of him each time she uses it 😀
I got a deep fryer for Christmas once. It’s been kind of a family legend ever since 😀 I couldn’t stand the darn thing, it took up all my counter space, used up huge amounts of oil, and I don’t even like fried food anyway. It ended up in the basement in less than a year 😉
Love the idea of keeping lists! Why hadn’t we ever thought of that?
Honey says
@Goldie, yes the lists are very helpful! In addition to not wondering whether your SO will like what you buy them, they have come in very handy for other situations, such as when our extended families want to buy us gifts (since most of them don’t live in our town and don’t see us in person more than once a year). Also, sometimes I buy myself things, and it’s helpful to have a list in case I only have x amount to spend, or want to prioritize something, or whatever. And of course we do each keep lists of things that we think the other person will enjoy but that aren’t on their list because they haven’t thought of it.
And yes, I agree that knowing someone and what they would appreciate as a gift is not only a matter of knowing their personal taste, but a matter of the context of the relationship at a particular point. If things are rocky, perhaps something indulgent/extravagant/beautiful is more appropriate than a kitchen gadget (and I would argue that unless you own a housecleaning business or are a “hobby cleaner,” which I’ve never heard of, something like a vacuum cleaner is never going to be okay).
Despite loving it, I probably never would have felt comfortable spending $200 on a Cuisinart for myself, though, so I’d always be grateful to have it even if Jake and I broke up. But we need a bigger kitchen, because already the Cuisinart and the Crock Pot have to sit out on the dining room table because there’s no place to put them (they go in the clothes closet when there’s company)! And since I have moved on to eyeing up KitchenAid stand mixers and expensive blenders, it’s only going to get worse 🙂
hunter says
Ladies, see if you can top this gift. I know a woman that got a “Pink Iron” as a gift on Valentine’s Day, from her boyfriend……
Elle says
Hi Evan,
I just love your blogs! You truly give smart and right advices, it just hit me hard. How can I resist not to purchase ” Why he disappear?” I am doing it today and I know already that I’m making the right choice.
You are a Blessing to all women!
Ellen
Lance says
I’m a big frat boy, but even I don’t totally go for the bros before hos thing. I do keep it real and do guys night out every so often, but I treat my girlfriends well also. The guy in this letter: total douche. Solution: drop like hot rock.
Sayanta says
even though the guy’s a douche, I actually would love a handmade ballpoint pen for a gift. Am I weird? LOL I just went on a site to check some out, and there’s a lovely pink one there….
Goldie says
#42, I know a guy who once gave his girlfriend a scale for Christmas, a high-end one that shows your BMI and body fat. She was not happy; can’t say I blame her. I love a good scale, just not as a gift from my SO, unless I asked him for it specifically.
$45 Sayanta, tell me about it! I’ve been thinking about this pen ever since the post came out… I want one so badly 😀
starthrower68 says
Here’s a story you might find interesting AND timely:http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-releases-500000-men-from-us-strategic-bachel,18095/
Cat says
@starthrower86 – That was hysterical! “US Strategic Bachelor Reserve.” I love the part midway where the woman says, “we need to convert the men we already have in excess… We cannot leave future generations with a surplus of men in dirty shirts who think it’s alright to split the tab!”
starthrower68 says
Cat, Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves….especially here. Sometimes we (me included) take this stuff WAY too seriously….
Aplus says
He needs to grow up, he will never change if you don’t tell him how you feel when he says things like that. Do you really want to come second in his life, whats the point of being in a relationship then, you would be better off being one of his friends.
Rachael says
I told my bf hoes before bros chicks before dicks… 😀
Ron Diggity says
If we are honest, nearly all women up to a certain age respond far more favorably to being treated poorly than well by men. Just look at the cliche “bad boys over nice guys” dynamic. Sure some women out grow this, but even they admit to going through that phase. It’s basic immaturity.
I’m betting dollars-to-donughts this girl would not spend half the time deciding to cut loose a “nice guy” bf who was “too available” or “predictable”. So obviously she is dating a younger immature guy for some reason – maybe he’s better looking/more fit than guys her, or more of a fun party animal, or whatever. This is the trade-off you accept when you date people for the wrong reasons….
DrJay says
Your complaints are non-sensical bullshite:
“He gave me a beautiful expensive gift but didn’t read my mind to foresee the even more expensive gift I wanted.”
“His mate “only” made him a groomsman.” (There’s only 1 best man, often a relative, so this is still HUGE. Is being a bridesmaid unimportant cuz it’s not “maid of honour”??)
“He is always telling me how happy I make him, how much he loves me, etc.” – WOW, YOU POOR BABY
“I have to listen to him…” – If you can’t listen to other people (esp a partner) talking about everyday life (who doesn’t?!) then you will never be content in a relationship.
“One time I was talking & he was focussed on his mate moving away” – So, despite him being in a needy emotional moment, you continue to try to compete with him for the stage limelight, of my problem is ‘more important than yours’. Very loving. In fact, I recently read an article that explains how males think more compartmentally, so switching subjects doesn’t mean the previous subject is less important, just the way his brain functions. In women’s brains, everything is related to everything else & always has hidden subtext & meaning. To men, they’re all separate.
He’s only known you 18mos & things may not work out in the long run. He’s known his boys for MANY YEARS & will have them till death them do part, NO MATTER WHAT. You should be happy he has so much loyalty for his family; if you were to ever have children, he would be as fiercely loyal to you.
This article sounds like “me, me, me”, I can’t believe he doesn’t read my mind when I don’t tell him what I truly think.
TELL HIM HOW YOU FEEL IN PLAIN ENGLISH WITHOUT HINTING, IMPLYING OR EXPECTATIONS OF CLAIRVOYANCE ON HIS PART. That is how males think: we say what we mean, mean what we say & speak when we need information or have information to share. You’ve tried the female way & it hasn’t worked, so try communicating like a male. I BET you get better results, one way or the other!