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This upset her terribly, because I was suggesting that she was “wrong” and nobody likes it when someone makes them wrong. But there are certain issues where it’s not about opinions or feelings; it’s about facts and figures. And since we have data on what works and what doesn’t, I think we’d be remiss to ignore the data.
Believe me, I understand her contention: she has a friend who met her husband at a bar, got married in two months and they’re still together thirty years later. That’s lovely, but it’s not a compelling argument, especially when studies show us that people who get married within the first year are more likely to get divorced. My reader wanted her feelings to be true, because it would justify her decisions to dive into passionate relationships. It was much harder to hear that her methodology for choosing partners (“being in love”) is not always the best way.
Living together doesn’t guarantee a great marriage, but it is a smart precursor for people to figure out if they can live together in peace.
A similar argument takes place around cohabitation. For years, people have said that living together was a bad idea and that people did so were more likely to get divorced. Those are old numbers, according to this study reported in The Atlantic.
Moving in together without a diamond ring involved didn’t, on its own, lead to divorce. Instead…the longer couples waited to make that first serious commitment, the better their chances for marital success…Individuals who committed to cohabitation or marriage at the age of 18 saw a 60 percent rate of divorce. Whereas individuals who waited until 23 to commit saw a divorce rate that hovered more around 30 percent.
“For so long, the link between cohabitation and divorce was one of these great mysteries in research,” Kuperberg says. “What I found was that it was the age you settled down with someone, not whether you had a marriage license, that was the biggest indicator of a relationship’s future success.”
Cohabitation has increased by nearly 900 percent over the last 50 years. More and more, couples are testing the waters before diving into marriage. Census data from 2012 shows that 7.8 million couples are living together without walking down the aisle, compared to 2.9 million in 1996. And two-thirds of couples married in 2012 shared a home together for more than two years before they ever waltzed down an aisle.
Living together doesn’t guarantee a great marriage, but it is a smart precursor for people to figure out if they can live together in peace. The dangers of living together are mostly about inertia: couples stay in relationships longer than they should because once they live with someone, it can be harder to find the escape hatch.
Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.
Julia says
I just moved in with my boyfriend of 5 months. I know its terribly early but we’ve basically spent every day together since we first met. I welcomed the opportunity and we’ve already had some challenges to face. We’ve done with with lots of support for one another. I am 33 and he is 39, we’ve both dated enough and done enough internal work to feel pretty positive about our future together.
Lacy says
Thanks for sharing. I’m in a long distance relationship, which just started about 2 months ago and we are the same age as you and your boyfriend are and my boyfriend wants to cohabit when I relocate back to the city I previous left and I’m kind of leery about doing something of this magnitude because I’m not sold on the idea of living together, even though he is trying to convince me it would be a great decision to live together and see one another, not to mention to come home to someone you love or care about. (We’ve know each other for 5 months, have been virtually inseparable since then)
Chris Hale says
Are You going to marry Him? While you guys are still in the Honeymoon phase of your relationship? Because sometimes couples live together so long before they get married and then there is nothing to look forward too. I’ve been living with my girlfriend for 9 months and She still wants to wait to get married…But in general it kind of sucks because what if She never wants to marry or he never wants to marry and that person waisted all that time or even sacrifice or compromised their spiritual relationship in hopes to get married. When a couple live together for a very long time before getting married…it’s like opening a Christmas present and you already know what’s inside.
sunflower says
I think living together prior to marriage isn’t a bad thing. I think it’s the mindset on how you enter into it that matters. For example, are you just doing it for convenience because you are spending a lot of time together, or are you both feeling like it could lead to marriage, being both open to marriage. I definitely wouldn’t move in with someone and give up my independence and own home for convenience just to see “how it goes.” There would have to be a bigger plan and the agreement would have to suit us both. Whether people agree or not, marriage is a contract, it’s an ever-changing negotiation.
Jessica says
My boyfriend and I started off as friends. He was crazy about me and would always ask me why I wouldn’t date him. He then moved to new york when I realized I shouldn’t have let him go. I flew to New York to claim my love for him. Shortly after, he moved back to Florida to be with me. We have lived together now for 5 months and he has become a person I do not even recognize. He is hostile, aggressive, rude, and has zero regard for another human beings feelings, including my own. I have tried nearly everything to make this work out but everytime he says he loves me, his actions speak otherwise.
Karmic Equation says
He’s being a bad bf. You need to break up with him and move out. When there is a disconnect between a man’s words and his actions, believe his ACTIONS.
Anything else, and you’re stringing yourself along.
Please leave him for your the sake of your self-esteem and future happiness.
brooklynmermaid says
Mark is absolutely correct regarding “chemistry” as in illusion and how relationships go from bliss she [email protected]#t within 18-24 months.
As much as it still hurts and as much as I love my ex husband, I had to tell him I was not happy with our marriage. We did not live together before marriage and got married 9. 5 months after meeting. Yes! We had the physical chemistry of an Atomic bomb!
However, he showed me his true colors early while we were dating so I blame myself for not following my logic. A couple of months into our courtship, he took a phone number from my phone and called a male friend of mine and called him. Chris was a phone friend I had met on an online dating service; we never met in person but were phone friends. I did approach my sweetheart regarding the call me made and told him if we are going to have a healthy relationship, he needed to go to counseling because he had trust and what he had done was extremely disrespectful.
I married him anyway during our blissful period. I discovered through our marriage that we both had childhood wounds and attachment issues. When he couldn’t have his way with me physically, he eventually moved out of the master bedroom into the upstairs bedroom. We became roomates and I did not know how to react but to shut down emotionally and physically. Yes, I contributed to our divorce due to ignorance and frustration on not knowing how to communicate effectively. Yes, we went to counseling however, it was consistent. But I was still willing to continue the work and was willing to find another method until we found a relationship coach that would help us both.
Yes, it’s been a year since our divorce. I have been in counseling and psycho therapy to deal with my issues. My ex hand I have been in contact occasionally and toyed with the idea of reconciliation. The last time we were in contact (he called me after four months of no contact), we had a casual early dinner and I asked him if reconciliation is something he would like to consider. He replied “Yes, in my heart but . . . ” he never completed that statement. Since he initiated contact, I wanted to get to the point. He then proceeded to share he had begun dating again on Match.com. I still don’t understand why he contacted me since it is apparent he has moved on.
I have moved on as well and have been dating someone for the past 8 months as I continue therapy and counseling. I don’t have the same physical “chemistry” I had with my ex. But . . . I believe our relationship is much healthier. Yes, we have some problems to workout together. He is 10 years older and I don’t have the physical attraction I had with my ex but we are more compatible and I enjoy his presence.
We have been discussing marriage however, I must admit, I have to take my time and will not get married or move in with him until more time is invested. It’s been only 8 months and I feel I need to wait at least another sixteen months before even considering moving in or marriage. As I explained to him, if I decide to move in with him, we need to be formally engaged. He agreed as we are both compromising. And if things don’t work out, his promise to me is to be certain I am in my own home as I intended to purchase a home recently and he asked me to wait. As he explained, if we are married, we will have two homes to deal with and would complicate things financially.
Until then, I have enough time to work on my issues while we continue our courtship as I continue to struggle with letting go of my ex who I’m still in love (lust) with.
Christine says
I lived with my last serious boyfriend for about six years. I almost regret it except for some of the great things I learned from the relationship. I spent a long time with a man whom I knew was ambivalent about marriage. I was young and believed he’d eventually come around with enough time but it never happened.
I’m only speaking for myself here, but I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to cohabitate if you are a woman and you want to get married. I think Evan’s advice is sound. Based on my own experience, investing in men who aren’t Mr. Right candidates is a total waste of time and I think that includes cohabitation.
I think it’s a different story if you’re divorced, are certain you don’t ever want to get remarried, or you have kids already or your kids are grown. I think if I had been married and divorced and had kids by now, I would be looking for something different in dating than I am now.
Even so, I enjoy my independence, and I doubt I would ever live with a man without being married, even post-divorce. I just don’t see the point, even post-divorce.
Also, the process of separating after living together sucks. I am pretty sure it hurts as bad as a divorce, and you didn’t get any of the benefits of marriage. That’s not counting all the issues with broken leases and other legal issues.
I’ll just stay in my own home until the deal is sealed.
Evan Marc Katz says
And if the man you love wants to live with you before he buys you a ring or sells his house, you’d refuse him? You’d tell him: propose to me after 18 months or I’m breaking up with you? I would think that you’d be making a big mistake.
Christine says
Evan, I don’t understand your reply. I didn’t say anything about giving me a proposal after 18 months, but the answer to your question is that I would probably tell him no. How is that “big mistake”? It sounds like you’re saying that it’s his way or else.
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m saying that if he wants to take six months to live together to be “sure” before he proposes and you put your foot down, you’ll lose your man. Moving in is a reasonable step. Insisting that he buy a ring and marry you before you move in is not as reasonable. If you move in together and things don’t go well, you’ll be glad you weren’t married. If you move in together, and he doesn’t propose in a reasonable amount of time, you exit, and will be glad you weren’t married.
Christine says
Evan, I don’t see how you could possibly “assure” me of anything when you weren’t there. You completely mischaracterized my comment about “18 months or else” and now you’re an expert on my failed relationship? You’re not making any sense.
Evan Marc Katz says
Okay, Christine, you’re the expert on your failed relationship. What did you discover after moving in together? Do you think you would be happily married to that man today if he married you first and moved in later?
Chance says
It might behoove you to consider how much men put at risk when they decide to get married, especially the types of men that women want to marry (successful ones). There is a lot of income and accumulated wealth that can be snatched away in the event of a divorce. That is why a lot of men want to see what it is like to live with a woman before ultimately deciding to marry her. Besides, what do you have to lose by keeping an open mind?
Christine says
I appreciate these comments. However, I disagree with Evan. I am not sure how you arrived at your conclusion because it’s not based in any evidence that is presented in this post. We’re talking about a study and while I agree that it’s worth a blog post and discussion, it’s not gospel that will work for everyone. I am also interested in your black and white conclusion, because I don’t think it’s logical. There are quite a few other possible outcomes in that hypothetical situation.
Chance, I appreciate your comment. I am only speaking for myself in saying that cohabitation did not work the first time. By “work” I mean that it didn’t result in getting my intended outcome, which was to get married. Also, what I want is just as important as what the man wants. I never said “My way or the highway.” I just have a strong disinclination to repeat something that didn’t work the first time.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not a black and white conclusion at all. In fact, your decision is black and white: marry me without moving in or lose me. Moving in is much more nuanced. You’re making the classic mistake of saying: “Moving in didn’t work the first time; I won’t do it again.” I assure you: if your relationship didn’t work after moving in, it wasn’t the “moving in” that was the problem. It was that you were an incompatible couple. If you’d had married him, you’d simply be a divorcee now. And he may be a lot poorer for it. Which is further evidence that moving in was the right decision – for him.
Christine says
Also: Chance, those types of situations are handled through prenuptial agreements. And successful women have those same concerns.
Chance says
If you are truly willing to sign a prenup, that could alleviate some of his concerns. However, there are still issues of enforceability and they are usually contested even if they hold up (this costs a lot of money).
You are right that women have the same concerns, and they usually address these concerns by not marrying men that have less assets/income than they do. Are you suggesting that men do the same? Besides, this is about maximizing your chances of a getting the man to marry you. So, the fact that women have the same concerns is irrelevant in this context. If a man is hesitant to marry before moving in, you’re not going to convince him to go ahead and marry you by saying: “you know, women have the same concerns about money”. That fact is going to be irrelevant to him, especially since it will likely be coming from someone who makes/has significantly less.
Lee says
Prenuptial agreements? What’s wrong with this world today? My parents never lived together or as people today call it testing the waters before they got married. They met dated fell in love got married and had a family. Their marriage lasted until my dad died. This discussion are no t for Christians because we don’t test the waters before marriage. It’s so sad that some people are so self centered today that they cannot learn to get along and compromise in marriage. So sad. Marriage is a lifelong commitment to the same person and we all are not alike that’s what makes life interesting. We just need to know how to get along and be selfless by putting the other’s needs first.
Andrea says
Chance I hear you argument often, and I find it very offensive. I have a six figure income and 90% of the men that I meet make considerably less than I do. Thanks to the recession, the are more couples than ever before where the woman has the higher income. Your assumption that the man is the only one taking a big risk is outdated. Remember the person who makes the most pays spousal support! 🙂
Evan Marc Katz says
40% of women make more. Men pay 97% of alimony cases.
Dina Strange says
I agree with Christine. I will not live with a guy before marriage also. If he respects and loves me, he will honor my wish…
And if he won’t, well it means he is not the right one.
Chance says
It works both ways, Dina. He could respect and love you, but he may wish to live together for a while before getting married and taking such a big financial risk. If you expect a ring on his finger as a condition of living together, then you aren’t honoring his wish. Does that mean you don’t respect and love him?
Jenn says
To me, the bottom line of why there is so much divorce these days is simple: too many people are jumping into sexual relationships too soon, and it is muddying their thinking. THAT, along with people living together INSTEAD of marriage (as opposed to “before” marriage) is why guys are so hesitant to commit. Why should they make the ultimate commitment when women are NOT REQUIRING IT? Waiting until marriage for sex and living together would give couples PLENTY of time to get to know each other as people (as opposed to sex partners), and makes it easier to ascertain whether or not you’re with the right person because you’re not making decisions based on your hormones (“I know he doesn’t always treat me well, but the sex is awesome!”).
Personally, yes, I would walk after a certain amount of time and no ring. My time is precious and if a year goes by and the guy still doesn’t know if he wants to marry me, then he’s not the one for me. Period.
Sunflower says
Sorry, but agree with Dina. It’s not just a financial risk on the man’s part any more, that’s old school. Women can take a hit just as bad financially.
Jenn says
Moving in can be a huge financial risk. Why would someone want to uproot their lives for a non-commitment. A lot of people are happy to live together without ever intending to get married. Also, in a marriage, property is shared. Everything is “ours”, Not “mine” and “yours”. I, personally, do not want to move and move and move; making changes in my life hoping to one day procure a commitment from someone who no longer has much of an incentive to commit.
Also, as far as the “Huge financial risk” that I hear most men talk about….I doubt that the men who are screaming about it do actually have much of a financial risk. In my divorce, I as the harder-working spouse, lost everything….but my ex did give up things in order for me to have the freedom to work as I chose. That’s life, we were committed, we made choices in our lives based on that commitment….things changed. If he I were just living together, by the way, there is no legal protection covering if one person has to sacrifice more….In dating I have met many men who pay alimony, and for the most part, it was because they wanted a stay-at-home wife who could have time and energy for them during the limited time that they were available for her…..None of those men are resentful, because they made the choice and they could afford it. I have met poorer guys who don’t really pay that much, but the problem is that they make so little it leaves them with hardly enough for themselves–this is a problem, but does not apply to most people. If you, as a guy, know that you cannot afford a woman in that way, then make the right decisions before getting married ( but you have to be fair about it. If you are asking the other person to give up something, you cannot leave them stranded if things don’t work out). The truth is, life a couple of workaholics doesn’t seem like much fun, but if you are more worried about possibly paying in the future, then that is the best option.
Bonnie says
I know this is a old post, but I totally agree with Christine and Dina. Women do not need to audition to become a wife. If a man tells a women he wants to grow old with them, then marriage is the next step, not cohabitation with a ‘test drive’.
A Sky Called Shotgun says
Christine said “Also, the process of separating after living together sucks. I am pretty sure it hurts as bad as a divorce,”.
Speaking as a guy? Ha! I can assure you that the family court experience is not something any sane guy would want to voluntarily expose himself to. Nope. I think for guys that living together is way better than marriage. With living together you get the deal you agree to w your significant other, not the deal the state clubs you to near death with.
Marie says
It depends if your goal is to get married or not. I would not live with someone unless there is a clear discussion that this is a commitment that is being made with the goal that we are working towards marriage. The guy doesn’t need to propose per say but it should be very clear to him that we are living together with the intent of marriage. Otherwise it will drag on and on and on with the guy thinking everything is groovy (or just inertia) and you getting upset. Clear expectations must be set. This is part of the negotiation that needs to go on in a relationship. And yes, even if the guy is the love of my life, he needs to know and respect what my boundaries are. If he does not than it is highly unlikely that he is the love of my life or that I will still stay in love with him. I actually got engaged and then married to my husband before moving in together. It is really nice because everything we’ve done since has gone directly to building our joint futures together with no doubts hanging over our heads about our level of commitment or if this co-habitation thing will lead to marriage. No energy is wasted. In contrast, my girlfriends are still going on to year 3 or 4 with co-habitation with no end in sight and they are not very happy (but unwilling to leave because of sunk costs or fear of being single). Their boyfrieds however don’t seem to notice or care.
Julia says
Semantical disagreement here: “I would not live with someone unless there is a clear discussion that this is a commitment that is being made with the goal that we are working towards marriage. ” That sounds like engagement to me. Personally all I needed to know is that he wants to get married and that he wants to live with me. Dating is the trial period, cohabitating, for us, is part of dating. We are testing one another out. I am pretty sure we will end up married but we might be awful together, which is why I don’t need to know that we are working towards marriage, rather that if all goes well, we will get married.
Marie says
@Julia – an engagement means, “Sweetie I want to spend the rest of my life with you, will you marry me [cue ring].” = I have already decided to marry you, all else is topping on the cake. Please say yes.
A clear discussion of commitment with the intent to marry is, “Honey, my ultimate goals are to get married and have kids, ideally with you. I understand that what you need before this is to live together for a short period of time. I am open to considering this but I want to know what our goals are.” Or refer to what Fusee said below which is better than what I can say.
Just because a man is marriage-minded doesn’t mean he is marriage minded towards You. The great mistake that women make when a man says he wants to get married someday is to assume he means he wants to get married to you. If your relationship is at the point that you would consider moving in with someone, then it should be stable enough to discuss the possibilty of marriage in a rationale manner rather than one side feeling like there is an unspoken expectation while the other side may be feeling an unwanted burden when it is several months into the cohabitation with no clear exit strategy. Clearly you do not want to know if you are working towards marriage. That’s fine but one day you may want to know, how are you going to find this out? What if he says then, honey, we were just trying this out, no expectations. You said yourself that we were just trying this out. We are doing fine, how does a piece of paper change anything? What brought this on? Why are you changing? This is not what I signed up for.
Julia says
Slow down Marie, take a breathe. There is no way to know after 5 months of dating if you are going to spend the rest of your life with Someone. Things I do know: that we love each other, we both want the same things and we plan our life together. I fully expect that we will date for 1-2 years before engagement, we are evaluating one another and our relationship. I’m not just sitting around hoping and praying he asks me to marry him. That sounds so disempowering/trying to read the last part of the story.
Marie says
My point exactly. That is why I would not move in with someone after only 5 months. This kind of conversation occurs after at least a year. But that’s the difference between our personalities. I like to do things sequentially with a plan going in and knowing exactly what I am getting into. I am not an explore as we go along sort of person.
Lola2 says
Evan,
interesting post… in his famous book “Paradox of choice”, Barry Schwarz says that people who live together before marriage (taking it for a test run, so to speak ) tend to be “maximizers”, people who want to be sure they are getting the “best”. It is the very act of having this “return policy” mentality (if it doesn’t work out, we will move out) that makes people to be LESS committed, not more. He further gives examples of study that people are more satisfied with non-returnable items that they are with the returnable ones, in general.
if, in the other hand, the choice is final, we go to much longer lengths (and put bigger efforts) in making the relationship (in this case, marriage) work. Whats your opinion on that ?
Not saying I’m advocating one way or the other… But this book really made me think hard about co-habitation before marriage.
Evan Marc Katz says
Living together wasn’t reason for her breakup. I believe it’s foolish to get married before living together – and I did it myself. You’re making a FORTY YEAR life decision; you don’t think it’s wise to try it out for six months first?
Kay says
I agree. I used to think differently, but I decided to move in with my boyfriend prior to engagement. This isn’t about making sure I “get the ring” – I’m not afraid of not closing the deal. My SO and I openly discussed marriage ahead of time and have every intention of that being our destination, BUT the adjustment period of sharing a life with someone is much different when you’re not at each other’s house with a bag and your dog, but every single thing you own in addition to your flaws and emotional baggage/quirks. You learn a lot about them and, if you’re honest, learn more about yourself.
Figuring this out without the pressure of having wedding invitations out to our family and friends or a large financial investment on my finger allows me – us – the ability to work towards my – our- goal of having an enriching life and stable home.
Mipo says
MARC,
Its wrong for you to say “its foolish to get married before living together”. Do you know that in the average African setting, its actually foolish for you to live together before marriage”. Westernization has remodeled a lot.
Before you make some comments, i think you should put into consideration some tribes, religious views and traditional views.
Many people who are in love definitely want to move in with their spouse already but family laws and traditions sometimes makes it impossible.
Personally, I don’t think I want to taste any waters before marriage. All you need to know can happen in the number of time invested into each other. The days you meet, the days you are with his family, the days he is with his friend, the days you go on outings, you are in a gathering, his religious activities, the weekends you spend around. Why would I move in with him for 1year because I want to know him better? What happened to giving him space or giving him a reason to be married when he already feels married.
Men on this platform asking for the lady to move in first are only people who have issues of trust or family issues. A man with a strong family value wont request for such.
Andrea says
I agree. I would not live together. Call me old school, but I don’t consider that a commitment–nor do all of the cohabitating men that hit on me, apparently. To them it is about saving money and regular sex, nothing more. Besides, marriage is about making a conscious choice to stand by each other, come hell or high water, and working out whatever differences you have together. Cohabitation is definitely not that–it’s not even on the same continent! Any guy that needs an escape route is not husband material, and will only waste your time.
Dria says
Evan, I am now a happily married woman to a man who consistently shows me every day that he desires, loves, honors, and respects me. I was one of the first 25 women to purchase “Why He Disappeared”. Your advice is both sound and prudent, yet it pains me to say that I disagree with you on this point. My hubby and I dated for 2 years and 3 months before we got engaged. We did not live together until after our wedding day. It was important to me to honor my Christian upbringing; therefore, we simply waited. I have had an absolute blast learning all kinds of new things about him, especially his favorite foods for me to prepare. He is not a neat freak, but a few socks on the floor do not concern me. My husband once broached the subject of living together when we were at the 14 month mark in our courtship. I explained why this was not the best idea for me. Yes, I could have lost him, but instead, I gained his steadfast commitment. We were both 39 when we married for the first time, and I know that your insightful advice played a major role in our jumping the broom.
Evan Marc Katz says
Dria – I’m happy you’re happy. That’s all that matters. But your Christian upbringing renders your advice useless in this space. Not because you’re Christian, but because your decision was made by your religion. You’re also coming to the false conclusion that because YOU had a positive experience marrying and THEN figuring out if you’re compatible living partners that this is a good idea for OTHER people.
I’m frankly shocked that so many women think it’s a good idea to dive into a marriage without having tried the experience on for size first. Methinks this is coming from a place of fear, not from a place of confidence. Because if you’re confident in yourself and your boyfriend, you wouldn’t be afraid that he’s going to live with you and then dump you or refuse to propose. You’d be excited to move in together.
Sara says
I agree with your comment, Evan. Speaking as a woman who has felt VERY strongly in the past about no living together before marriage, I know myself well enough at this point to recognize that it has absolutely always been because I was scared that the guy won’t commit to marriage ultimately. When you think about that, if I’m so concerned that he won’t want to marry ultimately and that’s what I want, why am I still with him, right? (Hypothetically speaking, of course, since I’m currently single:) Clearly he is not the right guy for me if we don’t want the same type of life together. As a last comment to all the ladies out there who have personal (but non-religious) reasons for their complete “no way” attitude about living together, I will say this: I feel you, sisters. It’s super hard to be real with yourself and figure out what that’s all about for you. Especially if it might mean saying goodbye to a man in whom you have invested so much.
eva says
Evan you mention the decision to marry before co-habiting comes from a place of fear. Well the only way a woman can be 100% confident about her relationship (when marriage is her goal) is when her boyfriend has made his marriage intentions to her crystal clear (AKA engaged). Explain to me exactly how a woman is supposed to have confidence in a man who is not sure about marrying her UNTIL he has lived with her? Clearly that suggests a 50/50 chance. I agree with Marie. I am not particularly against co-habiting before marriage. But it should be very clear which direction the relationship is heading towards. Co-habitation should be the next step AFTER a couple have come to a consensus that all things being equal this is something they would want forever! I think if a woman proceeds with this guideline she will be able to adequately screen out men who have no intentions of marriage and simply want to co-habit for the wrong reasons; while co-habiting with the right men for the right reasons – testing the waters to see if our intentions of getting married is feasible!
eva says
Again, I do not understand how you could advise women to wait for commitment (before he is your boyfriend) before having sex if she doesn’t want to be fucked and dumped and then go ahead to advise the same woman to co-habit before a commitment (marriage) if she doesn’t want to cook, clean, etc and dumped. That sounds like a double standard.
Evan Marc Katz says
Actually, it sounds like you have a reading comprehension problem.
1. If you have trouble having sex without commitment, don’t. That will spare you the pain of sleeping with a dude who is still on Tinder and keeping your fingers crossed that becomes your boyfriend.
This statement stands alone and has no bearing on the other piece of advice:
2. Live with someone before marrying to ensure that you are compatible instead of marrying and keeping your fingers crossed that you’re compatible. Notice the common thread is putting wishful thinking ahead of rational thinking. Moving in with a marriage-oriented man does not mean you “cook and clean” for him. It means you try marriage on for size and see how it feels before you do it. If you disagree, it’s because you probably moved in with a non-marriage-oriented man, cooked and cleaned for him and he took advantage of that. That’s your story but it’s not universal. Moving in with someone is the best way to simulate marriage before you take the plunge. If you choose to take the plunge with your fingers crossed, by all means, go ahead. Just don’t put words in my mouth or misinterpret what I’m saying because you don’t understand it.
Karmic Equation says
It’s too bad the “search” feature in this blog doesn’t allow you to search for a Poster’s names. There was a great post by Fusee about this.
In a nutshell, what she did–(she was single when started commenting on this blog, then met her guy, then got married to that guy, in the year or so that she was a regular commenter on this blog)–She moved in with the guy with the EXPLICIT agreement that they decide after 3 months (maybe it was a tad longer than 3 months) — whether they’ll get married or not.
If not, they go their separate ways. If yes, they continue cohabitating with the date set.
So yes, you can cohabitate BEFORE marriage if and your bf agree that it’s for a limited time and the reason for it is to ascertain compatibility for REAL marriage.
Maybe Evan can find Fusee’s post and link to it for you.
eva says
In the same way Evan, if a woman has sex with a man before he becomes her boyfriend and she gets dumped, that’s HER story but not universal. What makes a man a marriage oriented man if he hasn’t explicitly expressed any interest in marrying you? I just want you to see how analogous the two principles are. And for the record I have never lived with any boyfriend! Neither do I engage in casual sex. This is an argument, not an account of my life.
Evan Marc Katz says
“What makes a man a marriage oriented man if he hasn’t explicitly expressed any interest in marrying you?”
He says that he wants to get married. That’s what makes him a marriage oriented man. It may take him 2 years to know if he wants to marry you, but at least you’re not investing time in someone who never wants to be married.
eva says
Yes. So while he figures that out I’m going to remain at my place, the same way I’m going to keep my legs closed while he figures it out if he wants to be my boyfriend. Co-habitation makes sense only if we have discussed and intend to get married. This is just my contribution and view as well!! Thank you very much!!!
Tom10 says
@ Karmic Equation
“Maybe Evan can find Fusee’s post and link to it for you.”
I just used my secret search algorithm and found it. Scroll down 9 comments on this thread 😉
Sorry I just couldn’t resist Karmic!
Karmic Equation says
Dammit, Tom. I thought we were friends.
I didn’t think to use the browser search on the page, just the search at the top. lol
I was just testing to see if you were still paying attention to me 😉
SMC says
“I’m frankly shocked that so many women think it’s a good idea to dive into a marriage without having tried the experience on for size first.”
I’ll keep my response short because I’m a brand new member of Love U and really need to head on over to start the first module, but I was sidetracked by this article and the comments. All I will say is that I wish with all my heart that my ex and I had “tried it out” before getting married, but no, I insisted we be married first because, to me, cohabiting was “wrong.” And now I will regret the past 5 wasted years for the rest of my life. I will email you privately EMK because I have a question for you, but in the meantime just know that I wish I had discovered you before 5 years ago. Pretty much everything you’ve said in knowing how to identify the WRONG guy was what I was facing, but by golly I was going to make it WORK. 5 wasted years. Cohabiting would have prevented them because I knew within a month (less!) that marriage was a mistake, and we had already known/dated/broken up/reconciled for 6 years by that point. At a gut level I still think cohabitation is fraught with danger of sorts, but I would and will do it if I ever get to that safe/secure/heard point. No more insisting on marriage from me. I’m just trying to move forward and not waste any more time regretting the past 5 years.
Deb says
Evan, I get what you are saying.
When you place conditions, this limits your realm of possibility – the potential for establishing lasting love. We have the power. There’s nothing wrong with making your intentions clear about what you want – marriage. Don’t live with a guy for six years, set a time limit. Kick him to the curb if he doesn’t keep his promise. This is just like dating, except now it’s high-stakes love. Do what is right for your situation.
Britt says
For someone who worships at the altar of stats and logic, I don’t understand why Mr. Katz would contradict the maxim of “why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk for free?” The end game for women is to get married and have children. For whatever reason, we need the stability of the institution of marriage before we can consider settling down with a man and giving him our life and children. What I understand about men is that they want someone to cook for them, clean for them and have sex with them. Usually, when a couple lives together before or outside of marriage, all three of the aforementioned are taking place. So, what would be the economic benefit to getting married for the man? Why should he take on the risks or responsibility of marriage when he is already getting all the benefit? While I always respect Mr. Katz’s opinion, I feel that with this advice he is betraying the female gender a bit. Could I get some more clarification? What exactly would make a man “put a ring on it” if he’s already been living with you for at least a year? I’m still not convinced that I should live with a man outside of marriage. It just goes against my logic.
Evan Marc Katz says
Your logic is flawed. You’re overthinking things. Your cow maxim isn’t holding up. Here: it’s simple.
What would make a man “put a ring on it?” Because he WANTS TO GET MARRIED. If you have a “marriage minded” boyfriend who talks about how he wants to be a dad someday – AND he’s your devoted boyfriend of 2 years – AND he asks you to move in together – what do you THINK he’s doing?
On the other hand, if you have a boyfriend who DOESN’T want to get married, why are you with him at all?
Fusee says
I’ll write another comment about my own opinion and experience below, but I really agree with that, Evan, and I think his marriage-mindedness is the key and should be the prerequisite in moving in together.
D says
Britt, As a guy, I never did understand the logic behind that old cow maxim from a woman’s point of view. If it was true, women who spout this maxim would seem to put their all value in, as you say “cook, clean and sex”. Really? Is that all you’re worth? I’d guess you are a lot more than that. If you have a guy that only values you because you cook, clean and have sex with him, then you have found yourself a real gem (extreme sarcasm noted here). Your guy should value you because he loves you, not what you do for him. He loves you because he likes doing things with you, spending time with you. You are the other half of what he considers a perfect team that can conquer life together. If you put your trust in that stupid old adage that your mom told you about a cow and milk, you are really doing yourself a disservice. Please aim for more than that.
Jenn says
The point behind that saying is, why should he bother marrying you if he’s already got all the benefits of a wife without an official contract before God and the law? He gets to have everything he wants without making a real commitment. That is why I refuse to live with a guy before marrying him. Your relationship won’t fall apart just because your partner squeezes the toothpaste tube from the middle instead of the end. If it does, it wasn’t based on anything strong enough anyway.
Karl R says
Britt said:
“I don’t understand why Mr. Katz would contradict the maxim of ‘why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk for free?'”
If I want a cow, I’ll buy a cow. If I just want some milk, there’s no way I’m paying for a cow.
The maxim is wrong. It’s how some women (operating from a place of fear) think. It’s not how men think.
I’m married. My wife and I started having sex less than a week into dating. I started spending the night the next week. Within two weeks, it was most nights. After 9 months, I didn’t spend any nights at my apartment. I still paid for my apartment. A lot of my stuff was stored there, but we were effectively living together. We got married about 3 years after we started dating.
I know that I can have sex without getting married. I’ve done it. I know that I can have sex with my wife without marrying her. I’ve done that too. I didn’t do it so I could raise a family. Neither of us wants kids.
I proposed to my wife, because I wanted to be married to her. If I didn’t want to marry her, I never would have married her. It’s that simple.
Britt said:
“What I understand about men is that they want someone to cook for them, clean for them and have sex with them.”
If that’s your understanding of men, why in the hell would you want to marry one?
Morris says
I realize what the statistics say about living together before marriage. And I get that it makes sense to many people. But I also see nothing wrong with listening to your heart on a few issues.(Like this one.) If you don’t want to. Don’t. If you want to. Do. If we are going to base all our decisions on relationships only after considering the data it’s going to get pretty boring.
As for me. I decided a long time ago that I wouldn’t live with someone until I get married. I realize it might sound silly. But at this point in my life it’s one of the few things that I can share with my future wife that I haven’t done with another woman.
There are so many complicated issues that go in to making a marriage work. I’m sure living together would get you some of that information. But there are many ways to get important information on compatibility. I think it’s ok NOT to check off every box on a list of things that might help you find a perfect partner.
Katt says
I agree with Marie @5 that it’s best to wait before co-habiting. I know there is the old try before you buy reasoning but that falls down when one partner or the other doesn’t have both feet in the relationship and isn’t sure of their long term goals, i.e. marriage, children, purchasing a house together etc. when the other partner is thinking this is fantastic, we will be together, get married and live happily ever after. 12 months or so down the track when you have got to know each other, and before you move in together, if you don’t have any common future plans and goals and want to make a commitment why would you want to live together? Convenience, sex, money? Not really solid reasons for a lasting loving relationship where you have constructive plans for the future together. I have had several friends over the years who have moved in with their boyfriends and sad to say it never worked out and left some broken hearts behind.
Chance @4.2 it’s not just men who put a lot on the line these days when it comes to marriage and money. A lot of women are in well paying jobs these days and also run a financial risk if a divorce happens. Times are changing and if your #1 priority is money and you hang out for a girl who earns as much or more than you, you may be in for a long wait as there is going to be a lot of competition from other guys chasing that top few percent of girls who do have the top job and big bank balance. Yeah, lots of girls like the gorgeous Miranda Kerr, now single, rich and I think the queue starts somewhere on the back side of the moon …
tamara says
Personally, while I admit it could be wiser to live together for several mths before marriage, I could never do it. The reason is I simply have too introverted a personality, that this would be very hard work for me. I am only willing to do that if this is the man I’m (hopefully) gonna be with for decades/forever; I understand that marriage takes work. (Actually this need for personal time is a key factor dissuading me from marriage. ) I think that any guy who wants to marry me will have understood, maybe even liked, this introverted personality and thus would not pressure me to live with him before getting married. The 2 guys who proposed in the past did not ask me about living together prior; partly also because we live in a more conservative culture…
But for those women who are extroverted, outgoing and come across as eager to spend lots of time with their bfs, I’d totally understand why a man would really want to live together before marriage. If I were a guy, I might think “If she has nothing to hide from me (e.g. no bad habits), what’s the harm in a trial run?” After all, many couples holiday together before marriage, living together is abit like an extension of that. For me, I don’t holiday or sleep over with any bfs, so it’s more consistent that I don’t want to cohabitate either, I think…
I agree with Sunflower #2 that cohabiting is only advisable if you’re both marriage-minded, and like Evan says, the proposal has to come within a reasonable amount of time of living together. Otherwise you’re wasting your time and energy. That said, if you’re compatible with him, if you’re unique in his eyes, I believe living together before marriage IS the smart choice, and if you’re scared that he won’t marry you if you cohabitate first, that insecurity u have about the relationship is the red flag.
Kiki says
I agree with Evan that living together before marriage is wiser. It does not guarantee that you will have a happy marriage (plenty of other work must go into that) but it will allow you to check whether you have domestic compatibility with your partner, and hopefully improve your domestic compatibility to the point that you are ready to be parents (if you wish that).
I do understans why some women look at cohabitation as an investment which should lead to marriage, and are disapppointed if it does not. Traditional cohabilitation means a lot of household work for the woman, and she might be willing to do that for her future husband (whose income will be eventually 50% hers) but not for a man who intends to never share his income with her.
I lived with my boyfriend for two years before he proposed, and at around 6 months of that I figured that he does not care too much about cleaning the apartment, and if I am to have my standard of cleanliness observed, either I will have to do everything, or nag at him to help. Instead, I persuaded him to hire a cleaning lady to help, for which we shared the costs, and whatever additional work was left on top of that, I did myself, and he would do things only if he volunteered (which he gladly did for the “man’s jobs” such as lifting heavy stuff etc.).
Dria says
Evan, I understand and respect your opinion regarding my religion, but honestly, my decisions were not derived from a place of fear at all. Because of the intensely high level of self esteem I have gained after many years of dating and reading your blog, I was confident enough to say to him that this is what I wanted. No, it may not work for other women, but it worked for me. Another point, I married a man who shared my religious views. Again, I respect your opinion.
Jeremy says
Interesting discussion, so I’ll add my 2 cents. I don’t think that living together before marriage is, necessarily, helpful (in spite of the arguments given above). One might get a sense of what it is like to live with a certain person at a given time, but not what it is like to be MARRIED to that person. There is a difference. And certainly there is a difference once life gets stressful – such as when kids come into the picture. The person you thought you knew may become someone totally different. When we get married we are rolling the dice, using the best information we have at the moment, but unaware of what the future might bring.
So why not increase that “information” by living together first? Again, because I am not sure that doing so gives an accurate indication of what married life will be like. For example, if the woman (usually the woman, but not always) wants to get married, she will be on her best behavior during the “living together” stage, and not necessarily give an accurate representation of how she would eventually be in the future. She will likely make the man the center of her universe, shower him with attention, sex, and devotion – and I am sure that he will enjoy that very much. But ultimately this is not the way married life will remain in most cases.
If the man (usually the man, but not always) does not want to get married but simply wants convenient access to companionship and sex without a financial commitment, living together is his ideal scenario – why would he ever want to commit financially with marriage? Evan has argued that the man might want to commit to marriage because he “has marriage/kids in mind” – this may well be true, but not necessarily on the woman’s timeline. Thus, from the woman’s perspective (assuming that she is the one who wants marriage sooner), living together provides the man with what he wants, but does not provide her with what she wants, nor does it give her any assurance that she will EVER get what she wants. She could waste her prime years waiting.
I guess my bottom line is that there is a type of person for whom living together (without financial commitment) is the ideal scenario, and for this type of person marriage is not the ultimate goal. There is another type of person for whom marriage is the ultimate goal, and I feel that living together is not necessarily helpful and may provide mis-information and ultimately delay the ending of a relationship that is going nowhere.
Andrea says
Well said, Jeremy. What a breath of fresh air!
Jay says
It depends on the relationship.
Surely the way that both parties – in each individual situation – feel about living or not living together pre-marriage is fundamental. Also, their ability to express their views on this, to their partner, has a significant impact on the future success of their partnership.
Dria’s comment that her partner is also Christian is highly relevant as this demonstrates that she chose someone who is more likely to be on the same page where not co-habitating pre-marriage is concerned.
Evan’s view seems to be that not attempting cohabitation pre-marriage is statistically unwise. Where individual situations are concerned, these statistics will only be significant in the cases where cohabitation does not flout the couple’s (or one person in the couple’s) value system. (Whether this is for religious reasons or the myriad other motivations which men and women have.)
Evan’s blog talks laudably of the success of relationships being based primarily on honouring our own needs as women. To be true to one’s own views on cohabitation – and looking for a partner who is compatible on this point – seems a good place to start.
Evan Marc Katz says
Of course, you have to be true to one’s own views. You then have to come to terms with the fact that your own views may severely limit your dating pool. If you are a woman who makes $200K but believe a man should make more… If you’re into BDSM and you’re looking for a guy to dominate you in bed… If you go to church every Sunday and want a man who puts God at the center of his life… If you don’t want to have sex until marriage… you are entitled to your beliefs; you’re just going to lose out on a lot of great guys, that’s all.
Jay says
It may be a truism but from the moment one decides to get serious about committing to one partner, losing out on ‘a lot of great guys’ is the inevitable – yet joyful- side effect.
Jenn says
I agree, losing out on “a lot of great guys” doesn’t really matter when all it takes in the end is THE one. So what if there aren’t a ton of eligible, handsome practicing-Catholic men lining up to date me? If I happen to find one, and he asks me to marry him, I’m not going to lament all those other great guys I could have had.
Fusee says
My opinion on cohabitation has flipped-flapped over the years. When I was in my early/mid-twenties I did not know anything else than cohabitation! Heck I did not even want to get married. I was the one in the couple who was going to try things out and take my sweet time. I actually did cohabitate briefly with two boyfriends, and each cohabitation indeed revealed our incompatibilities. Not that we found ourselves domestically incompatible, but living together magnified our poor communication/lifestyle differences/bad character and made these issues not manageable on a day-to-day basis.
Fast foward to my late twenties/early thirties and I had changed my mind. Believe it or not, it’s a man who introduced me to the concept of getting engaged first before moving in together! At that point in my life I was no longer interested in dating for the sake of dating. If I was going to be in an intimate relationship with a man long-term, it was going to be a marriage, otherwise I was going back to single life. So dating for me became an exploration of compatibility and character and the building of foundations of love and relationship skills for marriage. It was a temporary stage leading to a fork on the road: marriage or going our spearate ways. I no longer wanted to cohabite before marriage because I was going to make us screen one another so well that by the time we’d be ready to cohabitate we’d actually be ready to get married, hence no need to pass by the cohabitation-without-commitment phase.
My then boyfriend/now husband entered the picture. I indeed screened him really fast and really well : ) We learned quickly that we were both marriage-minded, compatible, had excellent communication and conflict resolution skills, great character, and of course ridiculous attraction and love for one another yada yada. But! We had to first go through several months of long-distance which means not that much time together in person, and my then boyfriend had never cohabitated or had a long-term relationship. He absolutely needed to make sure that he was going to be able to live with someone before making the ultimate commitment. It was his self-preservation talking and nothing was going to talk him out from it. I did not even try as I totally understood him.
Thankfully we were able to design a three-month trial cohabitation without any of us having to sacrifice our living situation at the time. We had a start date and an end date. Regardless of how it was going to go, we would not continue a cohabitation.
The test was hard! Although as I anticipated I did not learn anything new about him, he did! And when he went down on one knee a few months later he knew better what he was really getting himself into. He knew what was going to be difficult, and he knew I was the one he wanted to do it for.
Conclusion? The key is communication, as usual. Do not move in to “go with the flow” or to “see where things go”. Do not turn cohabitation into an unspoken contract. If you do want cohabitation to be the final test before engagement, discuss your need with your partner, and make sure you both agree. Evaluate your compatibility and character before moving in and agree on an ideal case scenario timeline. Have a plan B if things do not work out, make it a temporary trial if at all possible.
I agree with Evan. Do not be tone-deaf to the needs of your partner. Have general standards and opinions, but be flexible enough to accomodate the needs of the special man you love. If he has expressed his interest in marriage through words and actions, if he is loving and devoted, if he values being with you and prefers his life with you in it, there is no doubt that he will propose to you when he is ready. Discuss a timeline if it reassures you. Women who find themselves strung along usually failed to have adequate (albeit intimadating) discussions with their partners or failed to act upon the information received.
Evan Marc Katz says
Great answer, Fusee.
Jeremy says
Fusee, I am glad things have worked out for you. But I think that your situation actually emphasizes my previous point rather than refutes it.
You lived with your boyfriend (at the time) for 3 months with the mutually-understood goal of determining compatibility for marriage. Do you think that you might have, perhaps, been on your best behavior, given your desire to get married? Do you think that what each of you learned from this very short cohabitation period necessarily educated you about what married life would be like (especially in the long-term)? Or might it just, perhaps, have been a potentially false confidence booster?
Again, I can not speak to your specific situation, and I hope that all works out for you. I totally understand the desire for “determining compatibility” prior to commitment. I just wonder if what is learned in such circumstances is factual or fantasy…
Julia says
Jeremy, your viewpoint is quite cynical. You believe that women act perfect and audition for the role of wife then change immediately when they get married. I guess you think that women only have one goal: marriage to literally any man who will have us. Do you think that maybe some of us are actually looking for a partner to live our lives with, not just trying to get our MRS?
Jeremy says
Julia, I think you have misunderstood my comments. No, I certainly don’t believe that all women are looking for an MRS and are deliberately trying to fool men into marrying them. But I do believe that anyone, man or woman, who wants something from someone else will be on their best behavior to get it, and will act differently once they get what they want.
Case in point – a shallow man who wants sex, is on his best behavior with a woman in order to get it, gets it, and then leaves. The situation is different, the timeline is different, but the reason is the same. If a woman (or a man) wants to get married and is living with their partner, they will (I believe and have observed) act differently than some time after marriage. This is not because they are trying to be false, but rather that it is simply human nature to be on our best behavior during courtship.
My brother and sister-in-law lived together for some time before they got married, and thought they were very compatible. My brother said to me at the time – “wow, I am so lucky to have found a woman who prioritizes my needs so highly and who loves all the same things I do.” They drove together to their wedding, signed some documents (which, to them, were not really important), and went back home again together. They had just gotten married, though they felt that nothing had really changed between the morning and the evening of their wedding day. Years later, neither of them behaves in any way similar to the way they did when they lived together. I am sad to say that their relationship has taken a decided turn for the worse (due to poor behavior from both parties – neither of them feels that their needs are being prioritized anymore, and neither of them feels like they have the same values anymore). Living together did not teach them what being married would be like, because people are on their best behavior during courtship, and also because people change over time.
I am very aware that a case does not prove a point, but the reasoning can be extrapolated. I believe that one of the factors that contributes to the ultimate success of marriage is a respect for the institution of marriage – not necessarily a religious respect, but rather a simple acknowledgment that marriage is different from 2 people simply living together. I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with living together from a moral perspective (though I don’t think it is as educational as some posters here, for the reasons I have stated above). But I DO think that it is harmful in encouraging the perspective that so many couples who live together have – that they are basically married, and that marriage is just a piece of paper. It is not. There is a world of difference between 2 people living together who can end their relationship free of any consequence if they feel like it, versus a couple who is bound together due to shared finances, family, and children. It is an entirely different skillset to resolve conflict when the honeymoon ends and escape is not so easy.
Hence my real problem with living together before marriage – we think we are learning about our eventual spouse – I would argue that we may or may not be. We think we are acting like we would if we were married – we are not. We think that we understand what life will be like when we are married – we do not. And on top of this, we generally value marriage less for it – at least, in my opinion and based on my observations (for whatever they may be worth).
Karmic Equation says
Hey Jeremy. I’ve cohabitated under both conditions.
1) Moved in after about 3 months of dating, where I considered myself unofficially engaged after 6 weeks of dating, when he suggested we elope 🙂 — I knew he wanted children and I was undecided and it took me a year to decide, yes. THEN I set the date, for about 9 months later. — So we cohabitated for about 2 years before marrying. – I initiated the divorce. There were no children. Ironically trying to conceive was the beginning of the end of our marriage.
2) After our divorce, I cohabitated with a boyfriend for 6 years. His alcoholism finally did us in. If he hadn’t let his alcoholism take over his life, I would still be with him.
And, maybe this is just me, I felt that I was MORE committed to my bf of 6 years than to my husband through marriage.
When things went wrong in the marriage, I felt “trapped” — that I couldn’t walk away from our problems. I was “forced” to try to work them out.
OTOH, with my bf of 6 years, I willingly CHOSE to stay with him and tried to help him through his alcohol dependency.
If I had been MARRIED to my alcoholic S.O., while I would still have tried to help you solve his problems, I’m pretty sure I would have RESENTED being married to him as my helping him while married was no longer a choice of my making but a responsibility brought on by “that piece of paper”.
When I try to analyse these paradoxical feelings, I just come to the conclusion that I felt that because I could walk away, but was willing to stay, that was an subconscious indication that I loved my bf MORE than I ever loved my hubby. And that my “love” for my hubby was borne out of duty dictated by marriage and not a “soulful” choice. Or something like that.
In my current 5-mo-young relationship, one question I keep asking myself is “Would I marry this man if he ever were to ask?” — knowing what I know about how I feel about marriage. And I can’t answer that question with an enthusiastic YES! And I also can’t say NO!
I guess this means the jury is still out and I just need to let our relationship and personalities unfold. At some point, the answer will be clear. It’s possible I’ll be 80 by then 🙂 But that means we would have had a 30-yr relationship, without marriage, but with commitment. Would that really be so bad?
Fusee says
To Jeremy 16.2: Well, I can only speak for myself and my husband of course. We’re both pretty reactive, so there has never been much of “trying to be on our best behavior” going on at home : ) We’re both good people, trying hard to be loving and kind to one another evan when not feeling much like it, but we’ve never been “faking it”. If we’re in a bad mood or exhausted, well that’s what it is. We do not make the other pay for it, but we do not try to hide it either. Each of us wanted a real trial, none of us was desperate for marriage. He knew I was determined to end our relationship if we were not compatible or if we had too many issues. He knew I was an extremely happy single woman who had been so for years before meeting him.
Actually our first week-end together in our new long-distance relationship (we had been together for two short months at that time) was hard! Whereas most people would have had a “honeymoon-worthy” week-end, we ended up having our first couple crisis because my new boyfriend was overwhelmed. Reactive, uh? I was concerned! I thought it was never going to work. Well, over the next few monthly visits we perfected the art of spending a whole week-end together. So when months later we did our trial cohabitation I already knew everything there was to know. I just did not know how my husband would feel about himself, so that was the nerve-wracking element of our trial.
For people who are slower at revealing themselves, more dating time will be needed and a longer cohabitation might be wise. That’s why there is no size-fit-all here. You must know yourself first and really get to know the personality of your partner. That’s why I was encouraging folks to remain flexible even when firmly grounded in specific values and standards.
At the end of the day, as you wrote earlier, marriage is going to present an element of gamble. We change all the time, and we do not know how some events will affect us. I honestly do not know how losing two legs would change me. I do not know how a war would change me. I do not know how getting unexpectedly pregnant and having a child would change me. I prepared myself for those eventualities and I’m really strong mentally and emotionally (not physically sadly). But no amount of dating, talking, cohabiting, and even spending years together, even buying a house and having kids before marriage will show you exactly how a lifetime together would turn out. You simply do not know.
The only thing you can do if you want to give the adventure of marriage a try is look for what matters in a partner: real action-based love, compatibility and character/relationship skills, and look over a reasonnable amount of time and through a variety of scenarios how you both use that love, compatibility and character to handle your individual lives and your relationship. Once it’s done (and gives positive results), you have to decide if you’re willing to commit to deal with life’s ups and downs with that specific person, and if you do, you’ll have to stop overthinking and simply hold tight to that commitment.
That’s what I’m doing.
Katt says
Jeremy
i think you may need to look at your attitude and belief that women only want to get married and any guy will do.
Very outdated opinion and women have a lot more choices, better education and better paying jobs these days than say 20 or so years ago.
What women want is an equal partner who they can love and respect and who in turn loves and respects them.
If you do go out with a woman who is looking for a free ride and not willing to do her fair share of the heavy lifting that partnerships require I would say dump her and move on. I would say the same about a guy who is also looking for the same free ride, dump him and move on.
Judging by your comments would I be safe in saying that you have never been married or lived with a woman? Believe me living with someone on a day to day basis isn’t some sort of fantasy and any fake pretence or behaviour won’t stand up when you are living in an intimate situation, it will be glaringly obvious that something is wrong.
Krista White says
People these days want to be sure that a relationship is going to work out in the long term – one way of doing that is living together before marriage. With the divorce rate as high as it is, I think people are being more cautious in choosing the right life partner for them.
Sabine says
Wow, I just had to jump in with my two cents (or sense…). I will admit that when my last relationship ended, I was the one who moved out (and had to do so quickly due to circumstances), and I could not take much with me. So fast-foward 1.5 years and I have a nicely decorated flat that is a tranquil spot for me.
The man of my dreams asked me to move in (his last relationship was so drawn out before marriage) but it was way way way too fast (and for the record, I just did not feel we knew each other well enough). I let my logical brain win b/c my wallet has been there and done that.
I would consider moving in again but I would do so much closer to an official engagement and with my flat still intact. I’m sure it seems like I am not fully committed but if we break up, he still has his place (and I would not).
Also, not sure if this was mentioned but shouldn’t the friendship part of the relationship be strong before committing to living together? This would be part of the day to day interactions…..thoughts?
Noquay says
These days, both men and women stand to loose a lot, both financially and emotionally, by marrying the wrong person. The terrific man who became my husband of 12 years moved in with me within about 4 months of our couple hood. That’s awfully fast, but we’d been friends for years beforehand. Luckily our values and lifestyles meshed well together. It takes time, a lot of time, to determine whether this is the case. Now, as a fifty something that out earns most of the dating pool here by a factor of four and basically both the homeowner and major breadwinner of any potential couple hood, I am super cautious of even cohabitation before it becomes clear that a potential partner and I are one the same page as to core values, lifestyle, financial and other forms of responsibility, I have way too much to loose if it doesn’t work out vs. some retired dude who rents and has few assets. I strongly believe that both men and women need to have a “plan B” firmly in place if things go wrong; this includes a way to support any kids solo if necessary, a place to live if things go south, and your own emergency savings account. It is too easy to stay in a bad rship to avoid having to be alone because one hasn’t prepared for the possibility. See lots of friends in bad rship/marriages because they feel they loose too much by leaving. Let people unfold, hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.
Fusee says
To Jeremy 16.2.1(.1?): Thanks for clarifying the situation that made you worry about people “being on their best behavior” during courtship.
I think that what you describe about your brother and sister-in-law is not so much a case of “faking it” in order to get a ring, or even marriage becoming suddenly more difficult for them than cohabitation because it is “marriage”, but the fact that your brother and sister-in-law are only committed to one another, and not also to their relationship. For a marriage to succeed (and it does not have to be “marriage”, it can simply be a mutual promise to spend your life together without any legal document signed), you must be committed to the other person AND (if not even more strongly) to the relationship. The reason is that your commitment to the other person will go through ups and downs as it’s pretty inevitable to sometimes be tired of/upset with your partner, and it’s only a strong commitment to the relationship that will sustain the downs of your commitment to the partner.
You must be commited to the relationship through consistent actions and it must transcend your commitment to the person if needed. It means that you continue to be loving to your partner, to threat them well, to resolve conflict peacefully, to sacrifice yourself for the sake of your commitment to the relationship, not just for the sake of the partner, and especially when you are upset with them or just plain tired of them. That’s what makes a life-long commitment (aka marriage) different than anything else: the commitment to the commitment. Some people are already there without having signed legal paperwork, while some married people will never get to that level of commitment. It’s not about the status of the relationship, it’s about what you actually commit to and how self-disciplined you are to hold on to that commitment day after day.
A girl in AZ says
Evan,
I have been reading your blog and have found it to be both insightful and helpful. But I beg to differ in your conclusion here. You seem to be under the impression that one recent study is proof that cohabitation is a positive thing. I can similarly point out a study from 2012 (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/opinion/sunday/the-downside-of-cohabiting-before-marriage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) that says exactly the opposite. In fact, the 2o12 study has gone further than the study you referenced by noting the long term negative effects of cohabitation on marital satisfaction. We could argue that perhaps those couples mentioned in the article I attached didn’t communicate as they should have, but the study should not be ignored simply because we dislike its conclusion.
If we are going to respect science, we still have to look at the totality of what it is saying, and the majority of studies (including studies that are recent, as I pointed out) still come to the conclusion that it negatively effects marriages. While I think that it is interesting that this study controlled for the factor of age, that is merely one factor and does not mean that cohabitation is a sensible choice from a merely scientific viewpoint. If we want healthy marriages, wouldn’t it make sense not to throw all of these other studies out the window? Wouldn’t it make sense to consider that while young age is a risk factor to marital success that cohabitation is also a risk?
Evan Marc Katz says
How is cohabitation a risk? Think for a second. How can living together first hurt a marriage? The only way I can see is that people get married out of inertia (and not because they really want to get married). But that’s not “cohabitation’s fault”. That’s people and their myriad insecurities. Living together is the best sneak preview of married life that there is. And if he dives in and spends $10K on a ring and $30K on a wedding, and one year into marriage, you HATE each other, it would seem to me that perhaps living together first might have avoided the divorce. Hard to see your point of view that men should leap before we look – just because you want a ring on your finger now.
Eve says
Living together does not lower the risk of divirce so how is exactly does it protect a man’s finances? If a man is really concerned about this he needs prenup not to live with the woman. The stats presented in this article make no sense in relation to the issue, it compares cohabitation with age instead of cohabitation with non cohabitation. I mean it may be true that younger cohabiting couples are more likely to divorce then older ones but what of older non cohabiting couples where is that data in comparison with the older non cohabiting ones? Also a 30% divorce rate is quite high (if a man wants to really protect his finances) and as far as I know the lowest divorce rate is among virgin couples ( 5% or less) so I guess if a man really wants to protect himself from divorce he should marry a virgin bride not live with the woman. I see a lot of men defending this whole cohabitation situation it pretty much proves exactly why women should not do it the men have everything to gain and nothing to lose but then will argue that women should not be too concerned losing their youth, time, and emotions on men who are not all that sure about marrying them.
Fusee says
Sorry for my multiple comments. I find this discussion fascinating : )
A girl in AZ, thanks for the great article. I did not look at the study it refers to (I’m a scientist and seriously tired of all the studies that contradict each other – it is now proven that the majority of published research is unreproducible : ) but I agree with the sentiment expressed in the article because it relates to what I observe. People live together to test things out, get married years later, and still divorce. Others are strung along in a cohabitation for years and end up breaking up without the legal benefits of a proper divorce. Does not look too positive!
I really agree with this part of the article: “Cohabitation is here to stay, and there are things young adults can do to protect their relationships from the cohabitation effect. It’s important to discuss each person’s motivation and commitment level beforehand and, even better, to view cohabitation as an intentional step toward, rather than a convenient test for, marriage or partnership.”
I believe that the problem is not cohabitation per se but indeed the “sliding” from sex to sleeping over every night to cohabitating with no discussion of the meaning of that very important step and no inccrease of the level of commitment to the relationship. The step itself does not mean commitment, but for the relationship to continue and succeed the level of commitment must continue to increase, especially when moving in together.
As I wrote above, if people really want to do a trial cohabitation before marriage they must do so at the very end of their exploration of one another and of their relationship, when they are almost certain that they will get married if everything goes well after a little while. It must be a mutual agreement based on a series of serious conversations. Unfortunately most people move in together because it’s fun, practical and economical, and that’s indeed the best way to either pay a high price to discover one’s incompatibility, or to continue a mistake for way too long. The solution is not necessarily refusing cohabitation before marriage but adding self-awareness and serious conversations in the process. Cohabitation, like marriage, requires partners to be committed to the relationship. Sliding into it is not equivalent to making a higher level of commitment.
Karl S says
More importantly, why would co-habitation suddenly become more agreeable just because you’ve signed a bit of paper that says “we’re married” now. Yes, you’ve taken a solemn vow, but why did you even taker that vow? Did you take it because you know from experience you can live with that person? That sounds like a smarter thing to do than to try and live with somebody because you’ve taken a vow. I consider the co-habitation argument to be a lot like the waiting a while before sex argument. Sure, “the one” might be that person you slept with immediately, but that same right person would have waited for you. Waiting helps screen out the time-wasters. Co-habitation is similar in that “the one” should be able to live with you before and after marriage, but you can definitely work out who isn’t the one by living with them for a while. Bad luck to you if you’ve already married them when you work that out.
Chance says
I’m going to go on the record and call a spade a spade: this is all about money. People that have a lot of it are naturally going to be more hesitant to leap into marriage with someone who doesn’t because his/her financial standing will take a hit. People who don’t have much money have a vested interest in getting married before cohabitation because it is in their financial best interest to do so. When I was dating online, the few women that I conversed with where is was apparent that they had money were also the same few women who made it obvious in their profiles that they did not want to get married. I don’t believe this is coincidental. With the exception of people who refrain from cohabitation before marriage for religious reasons, it would be beneficial to change the nature of the dialogue by bringing these financial concerns to the surface without fear. Then, progress can be made in solving the problem since we will be finally getting time heart of the issue.
Jeremy says
I have to agree with this statement. The only real “commitment” made in marriage is a commitment of financial provision by the higher-earning spouse for the lower-earning spouse and any subsequent children of that union. All other “commitments” are just promises – well-meaning, but breakable with no legal consequences. We do not commit to sexual monogamy in marriage, we simply promise it. But if one spouse violates that promise, there are no penalties in a no-fault divorce system. Only financial provision from higher to lower earning spouse is legally enforceable, even in the event of divorce via alimony and child support payments.
It might be nice to test the waters by cohabiting prior to this commitment, but really the only protection is a solid prenuptial agreement (and only insofar as it is enforceable).
Fusee says
To Chance 24, I agree that the topic money is an important factor influencing the desire for marriage (it was important to me), but I do not think it is the main factor in this argument about cohabitation before marriage if both people are indeed marriage-minded. Now if you talk about choosing cohabitation instead of marriage in order to preserve financial assets, that’s a different argument, but pre-nups are there to take care of all of these concerns.
A man saying that the desire for marriage is “all about money” is talking from a place of fear. If you are in a long-term relationship with someone who support themselves adequately and that you trust, it’s not “all about money”. Now, I’m going to admit that I would never have married a man in debt, with no valuable marketable skills, and/or with poor saving habits. But for the record, I would not have been in a relationship with that kind of man either! I broke up with guys who either were barely surviving on $500/month or who had luxury tastes that I did not care for. I’m not one of those high-earner women but I do very well with what I earn, and I was not going to be dragged down by a less responsible partner. However it was okay if he was earning less or had less savings, and my husband was actually back in graduate school when we met : )
To Jeremy 24.1, if you see marriage as only “a commitment of financial provision by the higher-earning spouse for the lower-earning spouse and any subsequent children of that union” then marriage is indeed not for you, regardless of your financial status and whether you cohabitate before or not. Not even talking about the emotional and spiritual promises made, they are many more legal benefits involved that the simplistic one you describe, benefits that could actually be brought by the lower-earner. Examples: tax benefits, access to (a better) health insurance, immigration benefits, raising of the children, management of the household, etc.
I did not have to convince my man to be interested in marriage, it was a relationship model he had always appreciated, and although he now earns a 6-figure salary, he is excited to have me as a savvy partner to build our retirement savings together. I bring less income, but I’m 5 years from paying off the mortgage of my condo, I brought more savings to the marriage, and I have more wisdom in terms of investment strategy.
If you have a partner who is on the same page as you financially, and who is responsible, marriage is not going to deplete you even if it does not work out. Write a pre-nup if it reassures you. But again, if marriage terrifies you (and it does if you only see it as the way you describe), it’s probably better to stay away : )
Jeremy says
Not to beat a dead horse here, but your comments are unfortunately incorrect. All the things you mentioned are benefits, not commitments. The promises in marriage are beautiful, if kept. The spiritual, emotional and romantic promises are fantastic, and are the reasons why I got married myself. However, they are NOT commitments. Each dose can back out at any time with no legal penalty. At the end of the day, if it all turns sour, the only obligation will be provision of the lower earning spouse by the higher earning one. That is why I always smile when I hear someone asking ‘went won’t be commit?’ my question is what are you committing to? (not what are you promising – big difference).
All that said, I am not anti- marriage at all. I do think some laws need to be changed, but that’s another story. I just think both people need to be careful, but especially the higher earning one.
Chance says
Fusee,
I think your assessment is fair, and I can see where I likely caused some confusion by veering off topic with the sentence in my comment about the few women I encountered online who didn’t want to get married happened to be the same few women who it was obvious that they likely had money. However, I do think the desire to get married before cohabitation is largely driven by financial reasons. This is where I think the “why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free” comments come from. The only difference between marriage and cohabitation within the context of an LTR is the mixing of finances, which benefits the lower-earning spouse. These women want commitment, and as Jeremy said, the only commitment made when a couple marry is that of financial provisioning from the higher-earning spouse to the lower-earning spouse.
Marie says
Chance, do you have relationships with women or see a lot of relationships where there is a big income disparity between the man and the woman? Because most couples I know make the same amount of money and finances is really not an issue when it comes to marriage. My husband and I make the same amount so it’s been a non-issue. As an aside, I find it ironic, maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy, that the guy friends we have who are the most concerned about marrying a gold digger and go around warning men from marriage, end up being the ones to accidentally marry a gold digger whereas the other guys are fine!
Chance says
Yes, I make more than twice what my partner makes. Most couples I know have a big disparity between what each partner makes, especially as it relates to my co-workers. I haven’t noticed the phenomenon that you noticed about guys who are afraid of marrying gold-diggers that end up marrying one, but I don’t think that I know any gold-diggers.
Jeremy says
Marie, I know you directed your question to Chance, but I will chime in here as well – YES. I know many, many couples (in fact, most couples I know) where the man makes significantly more. For some of those couples that was always the case. In others, the income disparity was less at first, but increased when the woman decided to take time off for maternity and not go back to work/go back part-time. I am not disparaging that choice – in fact, I think that it is great for children to have a full-time parent.
It is not that the woman here is a gold-digger necessarily – she just felt that her role in the marriage was to be a mom, while the man’s was to provision for her and the children. A fine model. Except that when it breaks down, she is left with no obligations to him, while his obligations to her remain for years, or indefinitely – hence my amusement when women demand “commitment” from men, and hence my understanding of men’s reluctance to “commit” with nothing committed to them in return (though lots promised).
Julia says
Jeremy his commitments are left to HIS CHILDREN. You know the ones who share half of his DNA. Any man who wants to have a child with a woman he may not spend the next 18 years with will be left with this commitment. Divorce is not a get out of parenting free card.
Jeremy says
Julia, both his and her commitments to their children stand, marriage or no marriage, divorce or no divorce. I am referring specifically of the commitments made by one spouse to the other upon MARRIAGE. If spouses divorce, both have a legal (and moral) commitment to their children. But only the higher-earning one has any commitment whatsoever to the former spouse.
When I refer to commitments made in marriage, I am referring specifically to actual legal commitments of one spouse to the other – and, again, the only actual commitment is provisioning of the lower-income spouse – not monogamy, not love, not loyalty….unfortunately. So, again, when people ask “why won’t he commit?” my answer is “what are YOU committing to?”
Julia says
I would suggest those men, who plan on supporting a stay at home spouse, have a prenuptial agreement but asking someone to stay at home, you should be expected to support them until your children are adults. I don’t know many people in this boat so its not something I consider. I intend to work until I retire and make roughly the same as my partner (I make slightly more.) Even still, I think its sensible to draw something out before marriage. What’s the sense in worrying about the commitment when you can negotiate it first. And you should definitely not marry someone you don’t see yourself remaining married to.
Chance says
@Julia, I don’t think I know too many men that plan on supporting a stay-at-home spouse lol. As far as the couples I know where the wife stays home to raise the kids, a lot of time the wife unilaterally decides to stay home regardless of what the husband thinks about it. However, I don’t think the men had a problem with that, listening to them talk. A lot of the husbands do seem to have a problem when the wives don’t ever return to work once the children are school-age. If the man can afford to support both of them comfortably, the wives seem to get into volunteering, personal hobbies, or maybe a part-time job so they can have some walking-around money for themselves. Even though many of the men don’t seem to appreciate this, they usually don’t divorce the women because it isn’t worth the financial hit or losing full access to their kids.
Karmic Equation says
As a 47 yo woman who can no longer have children, and don’t see the benefits of marriage because I typically date lower-earning men, I completely get what Chance and Jeremy are getting at.
If I don’t want/can’t have children, why would I need to marry? (I’m presuming most men who don’t want/can’t have children think this way) — So of if you want children, you need to stay away from these men, not because they’re bad, but because they have different life goals than you.
And if you earn more money than a man, why marry when you can just live together and keep your finances (401k, investments, savings, etc), separate without fighting about it?
If I marry, I’m going to have to insist on a pre-nup. I’m sure that would be as much a buzzkill to the guy as to a woman who is requested to sign such a thing. Luckily, my financial advisor said he would play the heavy for me if I ever decide to marry again 🙂
So for me, as a high-earning woman, who can have NSA relationships, why commit to (e.g., “marry”) a low-earning man, ever? So that I can have “committed” sex? How exactly does the commitment benefit me?
Once you don’t need a father/mother for your children, you don’t “need” marriage if you earn more money than the one you’re dating. Living together is a logical alternative.
Marriage has been made out to be a “romantic” notion for a long time, because there is a HUGE industry behind weddings – limos, florists, bakeries, banquet halls, vacation destinations, church tithings, etc. — and there is another huge industry behind failed or failing marriages – marriage counselors, divorce lawyers, etc.
Marriage nowadays is a commercial/economic undertaking (e.g., tax breaks) — so if you don’t need the tax breaks, you really don’t need marriage either, unless for religious reasons, and, of course, if you plan to have children. Don’t buy in to the romantic claptrap about marriage and you’ll be a lot happier you’re single.
Chance says
Well said, Karmic, well said. From start to finish. I’d like to add that being in an LTR doesn’t preclude one from sharing his/her wealth with the lower-earning partner, which is what I happily do all of the time. It simply protects you from having to keep giving once the relationship has dissolved, especially in states that don’t recognize common law marriage – yes, I’ve looked into this 🙂
If a man ever balks at your suggestion to sign a pre-nup, you can simply (and correctly) point out to him that a marriage certificate is just as much a piece of unromantic legal paperwork, which happens to entitle him to half of your hard-earned assets and possibly even your future income. However, the best course of action would be to dump him on the spot because anyone who refuses to sign a pre-nup has just shown his/her hand. Besides, there is always the issue of enforceability, and you will likely have to spend a metric f-ton in legal fees when it gets contested.
Jeremy says
Agreed, Karmic. And this leads me to, once again, question the wisdom of cohabitation as a stepping stone for marriage. Whichever individual wants the commitment (whether it be the man or the woman) will not behave the same during the “trial run” as they would once they have that commitment.
Case in point – one of the most common complaints that married people have is that their spouse stopped wanting to have sex (or drastically reduced the frequency of sex) after marriage. This is most commonly the woman, though can also be the man (more rarely). This would NEVER happen if the couple was cohabitating as a trial run for marriage. Why? Because anyone (and especially any woman) who turns off sex before the marriage can pretty much be assured that the marriage won’t happen. But after marriage they can do what they like, and if their spouse doesn’t like it they can leave, resulting in cash and prizes for the lower income spouse. There is a reason why women initiate 70-80% of divorces! and take alimony in 95% of cases….
it is not that I think cohabitation is wrong. I just don’t think it is educational, any more than the good behaviour a child shows when they want the cookie you are holding.
Evan Marc Katz says
Jeremy – in theory, what you wrote makes sense. In practice, it falls apart. How long do you think people can keep a mask on? One year, maybe. But, for the most part, people are going to be themselves. And they’re going to get comfortable. And the mask is going to slip. Which is why I think people (who are not in their late 30’s) should date for two years, THEN move in, and THEN if that goes well, get engaged. Everyone’s mask will have slipped. Everyone’s bad habits will have showed. Everyone’s sexual proclivities will have outed themselves. Now you can see if you’re truly compatible as a married couple. Problem is that everyone wants to rush into marriage out of fear or passion. Slow and steady wins the race – and that includes people who cohabitate and break up. This is a GOOD thing and it saves you from a future divorce.
Yes to Cohabiting says
I wholeheartedly agree that cohabiting before marriage is a smart move for couples. Studies claiming that cohabiting before marriage more likely leads to divorce in comparison those who live separately are hogwash. Yes, research shows that couples who cohabit before marriage (and especially before an engagement or an otherwise clear commitment) tend to be less satisfied with their marriages – and more likely to divorce – than couples who do not. These negative outcomes are called the cohabitation effect. But why? The answer lies in the data.
Many researchers who claim that cohabiting leads to divorce most likely have not attempted to analyze all factors that may account for their findings. As a social researcher, I have been taught the importance of controlling for various factors when examining relationships between two constructs (i.e. analyzing cohabitation and likelihood of divorce, and controlling for the factors that may mediate that relationship). For instance, age is an important factor that researchers may not include in their analyses. Once you control for the age variable, the correlation between divorce and cohabitation disappears. Why? Couples are settling down at an earlier age, and settling down too young is what leads to divorce.
I think back to many 18 year-olds who moved in with their boyfriends when they went away for college. Duh! These young girls moved in on a whim. I guarantee they did not communicate their expectations before moving in together! I had a friend whose (now) fiancé “sorta moved in after the first date” in her words. They never had a conversation about it. None months later, she complained to me that he wasn’t paying the rent. They argued. He punched walls when he was upset. He went to work when he felt like it (his parents own a business), and he cheated on her when they were having problems. So what did she do? She got pregnant. He wasn’t happy about it. He cheated on her again. And of course, due to external pressure from family members and friends, he proposed. It was the “right” thing for him to do. Yet, she constantly complains about him. Anyone can see that this relationship has an unstable foundation, yet she doesn’t see it. ”¨
It is called “sliding, not deciding.” Couples move to the next step without even a conversation about it. They bypass talking about why they want to live together and what it will mean for them. Sliding IN may be fun and exciting for a young couple, but sliding OUT does not occur. It’s more like climbing a mountain. So young adults enter into what they imagine will be low-cost, low-risk living situations only to find themselves unable to get out months, even years, later. ”¨
My conclusion? For so many decades, researchers have led us to believe that cohabitation leads to divorce, but those earlier findings were a result of poor measurement. Those findings, therefore, are not valid. Ultimately, I believe It’s important to discuss each person’s motivation and commitment level beforehand and, even better, to view cohabitation as an intentional step toward, rather than a convenient test for, marriage or partnership. So moving in at 18 or after 2 months into a relationship may not be a good idea. But moving in after a year of dating and discussing the practical aspects of a relationship (i.e. the reason for moving together) could lead to a wonderful marriage.
Evan Marc Katz says
Triple Like. Apart from the point that moving in after 18 months or 2 years is too long. It’s not. It’s just right.
Yes to Cohabiting says
Oops. I meant to say “18 years of age or 2 months into a relationship.” I firmly believe that between couples who cohabit, being young and/or cohabiting during the early stages of a relationship are what damage relationships, not simply cohabiting. In my opinion, it is ludicrous to make blanket statements that cohabiting increases the likelihood of divorce. It is best to parse out that relationship between cohabitation and divorce to examine why that relationship exists and whether other factors contribute to the “noise” in that relationship, so to speak.
I, myself, have moved in with my significant other after a year and 3 months. Whether or not my relationship works out, I must say that– after living together for 9 months–it is one of the best decisions I have made in my relationship.
Morris says
“For instance, age is an important factor that researchers may not include in their analyses. Once you control for the age variable, the correlation between divorce and cohabitation disappears. Why? Couples are settling down at an earlier age, and settling down too young is what leads to divorce.”
Where you got that information? If it was as simple as being too young than what you are saying is cohabitation has no positive/negative impact on divorce. If you get married too young you increase your chances of a divorce. If you cohabit before marrying too young you increase your chances of a divorce. I don’t necessarily disagree with that but it doesn’t really prove/disprove your point on cohabiting being a net positive. Scientifically.
Intuitively I get how cohabiting is appealing to many people. But I can’t shake the feeling that some of the post make it seem like there are NO downsides to cohabitation.
I’ve known a few couples who have called it off after living together. Couples I thought would be happily married. And the reasons for calling it off on the surface sounded reasonable. But not really reasonable if they were married and wanted to file for divorce.
Meaning there are things you will try really hard to work through if married that you just wouldn’t if you were single looking for the perfect partner. And that is how it should be. Marriage is special and one should go the extra mile to make it work. Similarly, after you have children your marriage is taken, yet again, to another level. And you try to make it work even harder.
Do your homework on your partner before getting married. I can’t image after dating for a while and practically living together.(At least that is how my relationships tend to be.) There is something you ‘missed’ that you would have caught if living together(not just practically living together) that is so HUGE you would divorce that person if married.
Obviously people feel really passionate about this topic. I think that’s a good thing and they should listen to their gut. No one size fits all.
Yes to Cohabiting says
How are you defining net positive?
I don’t think cohabiting is a “silver bullet” or panacea. It doesn’t make people immune to divorce. It may force people to recognize what they are getting themselves into.
The point of this particular study was to examine whether cohabiting increases the likelihood of divorce. The above article mentions that cohabiting does not increase one’s chances of divorce, as many believe. The researcher did not attempt to delve further. Only future research will determine whether cohabiting leads to “net positives,” however they may define that.
Yes, there are downsides to cohabitation. But the losses incurred from a divorce are much worse. Two people may stay longer together than they should, due to sharing a lease, inertia, and other factors but isn’t it easier to get out of a relationship than a marriage?
I am cohabiting with my significant other. We had several crucial conversations before making the leap. If you ask me, I’d rather find my own place if things don’t work out than have to go through the ordeal of a divorce. If things do work out, I will be happy to enter a marriage with both eyes open and both feet firmly on the ground.
Morris says
Read it and it made sense. Thank you. If people are comfortable with it go for it. I was more concerned with some posts(not necessarily yours) that make it seem like every couple should do it and there was no potential downsides. Like I said. I’ve seen good relationships end because of issues that wouldn’t make a marriage end.(Usually men ending the relationship btw.) So you might end up losing a great guy because you wanted to try and live together first.
Paula says
I had to comment about Christine’s post #4. I’m sorry but lots of men cohabit with women and it leads…no where. To me I would never move in with a man unless we talked about marriage and I would have to be engaged. If he isn’t interested, I will either continue happily dating him or pull back and think about how I feel about the relationship. My longterm goal is marriage and I do not believe we should pressure men but if I am not seeing steps that he is serious about us, I will step back to see if it’s worth my time to continue spending my valuable time with a man who isn’t sure about wanting me. Yes think about it and your life goals but at some point that uncertainty is just an excuse. There are many men who meet a woman and want to settle down after a few months of dating. Don’t let a man say he has doubts as an excuse. When men want to settle down, damn it they do and there is nothing you can do to stop them. A lot of men use the excuse of marriage being a risk and then suggest the living together but they never had the intention to go any further. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Trust me when they want to settle down, they won’t use this whole ‘let’s move in together’ BS. They claim you early on
Evan Marc Katz says
Since we heard this ridiculousness a second time, “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” I figured I’d give an answer.
Because he wants a cow.
Good men marry because they want to get married, not because of societal (or girlfriend-based) pressure. Any man who marries due to pressure, well, let’s say you can probably choose a better husband. So can we dismiss of this inane “cow” excuse once and for all?
Julia says
I’m not so sure why women will so eagerly refer to themselves as property that provides a product for a charge.
A man marries a woman because he loves her, wants to spend his life with her because his life is better with than without her. Not because she is withholding “milk” aka sex, being cared for.
Isa says
All human relationships are transactions. I’ve seen in action how quickly holding out leads to marriage (generally under a year). Ultimate stability? TBD, but the girl and the guy did get what they wanted. Horridly cynical perhaps, but it is hard to shake a German engineering family background. The lot of us unromantic graphing calculators!
Jenn says
Evan, just because you don’t believe in the validity of that statement, that doesn’t make it untrue. There’s a reason that saying has survived for so long: because more often than not, if given the chance, men will give women less effort and commitment than women want. And why should they, if women are not requiring them to step up? It’s a fact that usually, more women than men want to be married (and sooner – on the whole, guys don’t seem to start panicking about marriage until they hit their late 30s/40s). You’re making it sound as if most guys who ask women to move in are doing so as a precursor to marriage. Sorry, but that just isn’t true.
Evan Marc Katz says
“You’re making it sound as if most guys who ask women to move in are doing so as a precursor to marriage.” Actually, Jenn, you’re wrong. I’m not even going to pretend to be diplomatic when someone says something UNTRUE. If memory serves properly, two thirds of all couples move in together before they get married. And presumably, there are couples like you who never want to live together before marriage. Sounds to me like a whole lot of men are, in fact, moving in with their girlfriends as a precursor to marriage. Unless you think the 50 million men who are married in the US who chose to move in with their girlfriends all got married after lots of threatening and cajoling. Jenn, you can do whatever you want with your life. Just stop giving your personal opinions as if they are facts.
Isa says
Ug do you not get the point? If moving together *was* signalling marriage, why do so many people live with multiple partners before perhaps tying the knot? The point is, all these roommates with benefits situations do not help advance a woman if marriage is her ultimate goal, as most women tend to want to make said man happy and not pressure (-_-) him about commitment.
The ultimate point is that merely moving in is not a stable condition. I’ve seen too many of my girlfriends (or guys) get kicked out at a moments notice, and then have to bum around of other people for a couch. It’s especially nice if the person being kicked out has minors in tow.
Of course, differences in behavior may be very class based. My acquaintances and relatives in the lower quartile? Highly unstable, low rate of marriage, multiple living together arrangements where the couple are referred to as “husband and wife.” Upper quartile? No living together until post commitment (formal or informal depending on wedding funding abilities). Perhaps 1 or 2 people with multiple live ins before marriage/permanent partnerships. Overall, much more stable.
Just because something is becoming incredibly more common doesn’t mean that there aren’t bad side effects later down the road (i.e. 1 or 2 generations). Pesticides are a pretty good case study for that.
Evan Marc Katz says
Isa:
“If moving together *was* signalling marriage, why do so many people live with multiple partners before perhaps tying the knot?”
Because they tried living together and discovered they’d be incompatible spouses. Sounds to me like living together was a GOOD thing, as it prevented an eventual divorce. Remember, the goal isn’t to get a ring. It’s to be happily married. And if living together for a year indicates to one or more parties that they wouldn’t be happily married, then I’d say that’s for the best. Wondering how you can disagree with this.
And pesticides? Save a metaphor that works. Living together doesn’t hurt couples. Incompatibility does.
Isa says
I am quite aware of the goal. I was responding to the overall tone of the thread that indicated that moving in was the only/best way to do things and people who thought otherwise were well… as well as some of the ideas that moving in is signalling something specific. The multitude of opinions and values circulating at present means it doesn’t signal anything in my opinion, other than a change of location.
As per pesticides, I worked the fields in the summer once I was old enough to drive the combine, so I didn’t mean pesticides = moving in = death. More that immediate benefits can have hidden side effects, which can be on balance better to deal with than use nothing. The cost/benefits analysis is tricky. The timeline also fits neatly (mid-century huge shift in a fundamental way of doing things necessary to sustain life).
Besides, nothing is truly known until enough time has passed to get valid data. The dating/courting/marriage dynamics shifted so radically and swiftly in the west that it is impossible to say anything with any certainty.
Jenn says
I don’t understand how you can say that moving in together doesn’t hurt couples if they break up. How is that even possible? When a relationship ends (as most do if they don’t result in marriage), that means at least one partner is left hurt, confused and maybe even devastated. That goes double when people move in together, because it’s usually seen by at least one party in the relationship (most often the woman), as a step toward marriage. Breakups of live-in partners can cause a ton of hurt, especially if the hope was that living together would lead to marriage. Then the baggage from those breakups gets dragged into each subsequent relationship. I fail to see how that isn’t hurtful. It’s better to guard your heart from the wrong person by getting to know them for a long time before any clothes are strewn on the floor, and especially before any leases are signed. That is the only way to know if you are truly compatible. Spend a lot of time getting to know each other as people – that is the key to figuring out whether or not two people are a good fit for each other. Everything else can be worked on, but if there isn’t a true meeting of the minds along with the physical attraction, then there’s no point even being with that person.
You misinterpreted what I said when I asserted that most people do not necessarily move in together specifically to “test” each other as potential marriage partners. A lot of the time, it’s more like “Well, I don’t really want to get married right now, but yeah, let’s just try living together for a while and see what happens.” Then they might live together for a few years, get comfortable and think that since things aren’t absolutely terrible, getting married would be a good idea. That’s what I meant when I said that there are not a lot of couples who use living together as a specific precursor to marriage. Many of them either break up long before they ever make it to the altar, thus creating more baggage each time they live with someone, or they live together indefinitely, never making a more serious commitment. Sure, people who live together can have good marriages. I’m not saying that it’s not possible; it’s just that it’s far more likely that it doesn’t happen that way.
Besides, I think if someone needs to “try before they buy”, then they’re not 100% committed to their relationship anyway.
Evan Marc Katz says
Jenn-
Moving in isn’t the cause of breaking up. Incompatibility is the cause of breaking up. Your suggestion that people should get married, THEN move in – only to later find out that they’re incompatible – will only lead to divorce. Is that a better outcome than living together and breaking up? I don’t think so.
You say the only way to know if you’re truly compatible is to NOT live together and that any issues that come from living together can be worked on. That is some ostrich-in-the-sand thinking right there. It’s like you want it to be true so much that you’re convincing yourself it’s true, even though it makes no sense whatsoever.
The only thing about which you’re correct is that some people move in together because they don’t know what else to do. My advice: don’t move in with someone who isn’t clear that he wants to get married one day. Problem solved.
Unfortunately, you leave on another pie-in-the-sky unrealistic note that if someone needs to “try before they buy” they’re not 100% committed to the relationship. You’re right. That is the VERY POINT OF DATING FOR TWO YEARS AND MOVING IN TOGETHER – to figure out if you’re 100% committed. To ask someone to be 100% committed before he knows he’s 100% committed is like wanting the sky to be red because you prefer red. That’s why long courtships and cohabitation are a good idea – to make sure that both parties are 100% committed BEFORE they get married. Christ, this is tiring.
Jenn says
Evan, we are just going to have to agree to disagree, it seems. Incompatibility has less to do with whether or not you can live with a person on a day-to-day basis, and more to do with whether or not your personalities mesh well, your goals for your future together are similar, and you have the same values and consistent beliefs about important things (i.e. parenting). You seem to be operating under the assumption that two people can spend a year or more in an exclusive relationship, and somehow be completely oblivious to any glaring red flags or inconsistencies concerning compatibility. I’m not saying that doesn’t happen, because there are people who do ignore things. I’m saying that just because that’s what happens to some people, that doesn’t mean that people who choose not to cohabit can’t live happily together after marriage. Just because they haven’t shared the same address doesn’t mean that it’s absolutely impossible to figure out how compatible they are. True commitment doesn’t come from figuring out whether or not you can stand living with someone, it comes from how much you love them and want to be with them. I think you are way off on this, and I think that any intelligent person who pays close attention to their relationship can figure it out without having to test anything.
Overall, I think you give very sound advice and I absolutely love to read your blogs. They are always very intelligent, insightful and mostly on the mark. But on this, we are just never going to agree (which is fine, because how fun would life be if everyone always agreed on everything?). It’s always good to hear from you and thanks for your perspective!
Evan Marc Katz says
@Jenn
“You seem to be operating under the assumption that two people can spend a year or more in an exclusive relationship, and somehow be completely oblivious to any glaring red flags or inconsistencies concerning compatibility.” I never said completely oblivious. I only said you will know more about someone after two years than one year, and more about someone after living together than before living together.
“I’m saying that just because that’s what happens to some people, that doesn’t mean that people who choose not to cohabit can’t live happily together after marriage.” I didn’t say that either. I hope you can understand why it’s so difficult to defend things I haven’t said. I got married before moving in, so obviously it CAN be done. Is it the BEST idea? Not in my opinion.
“True commitment doesn’t come from figuring out whether or not you can stand living with someone, it comes from how much you love them and want to be with them.” Sorry, love. If you can’t stand living with someone, you probably shouldn’t have a commitment to him. Better to figure that out before the rings and ceremony than after. Do as you wish. I wish you luck either way.
Ellie says
Firstly would like to convey how much I really like/value Evan Marc Katz insights!….no sorry I mean absolutely love them!…….
Well the right path involves a white dress and a big cake! for a lot of ladies lol! …
Seriously though,woman have stopped setting the bar high! (sleep around alot)
men dont want to marry sluts do they?! ;-(
To be that the girl worthy and in possession of good morals, would help getting the man you respect/like/love being interested in a proper committment regardless of living together first or not etc
Of course in order to have a functioning relationship long term there needs to be enough
1.stability,
2.actual caring and other more sensible factors,
It is not the 1950’s anymore and all the more harder I feel – …eg Men are no longer Men, and Women are no longer Women- Somewhere along the lines our culture decided to switch gender roles around. We began teaching men to be “nice”, to be accommodating and to “get in touch with their feminine side.” Masculinity was derided and discouraged, even labeled brutish and primitive. Meanwhile, women were taught to be strong, independent and proud. Feminine behavior and attitudes, like a quiet, gentle spirit, were discouraged in women. In short, men were taught to act like women and women were taught to act like men.While the woman would learn her best bet is to not acquiesce to fast!!.
Courtship has descended into dating which descended into hooking up!! ;-(.
So if ladies you want (me too) marriage minded men you are right avoid those whom are happy to be wishy washy passing the time on the fence re ‘dating’…
Men that live a luxury or above average lifestyle in my intelligence play around.
therefore we need to get back to COURTING not DATING, Dating has sadly lead to HOOKING UP CULTURE! ;-(
But to move in or not move in, my view after weighing up both sides fully is….as Evan states you could end up missing out on a fantastic guy this way!…..so at least be somewhat open to it!….
Isa says
Rather schizophrenic. So girls should act like 1950’s ladies instead of slutting around but also move in with people…? The only way to get respect (speaking as a woman) is to be consistent. You are a liberated woman of the 21st century? Don’t expect a ring and a white dress. You want equality, so you get equality. In all ways. You are a traditional woman? You’re probably going to get whatever said man thinks you should get, and are expected to be happy with it. Bluntly, your kept virtue holds the purse strings. The middle is not philosophically consistent (or at all compatible) and will not hold. Pick a side, and stick to it.
Ellie says
Whoa!…..not so fast!…… never said I wanted equality!…….there must be ‘EQUITY’ in a R/ship not ‘EQUALITY’….
(Woman are silly to pretend they are equal to men! men and woman are not the same and never will be – We (men and woman) compliment each other!,but are not the same!….
We bring different roles to the table etc
Relationships need HONESTY, when you have established honesty and openness
in said R/ship then it is ok to move in only after you know that other person is OPEN HONEST AND CARING…
I would lean towards the side (as you put it > Pick a side etc) and stick to it) If I hadn’t seen
that not one way achieves the desired result a happy ever after with ‘The One’….
I would much prefer to not move in until marriage but the world has changed too much (and not for the better) so I feel I will negotiate to get what I want….
Many woman who date divorced men will find they are once bitten twice shy,they have often learnt from the Frivorce and its taught them to Proceed with caution and thus I feel that there is merit to Evan saying you could miss out on someone buy doing the Marriage first or else way!..
Men don’t like pressure do they? ;-(
Isa says
Oh, I didn’t mean that you wanted equality in all things, but rather that that is the goal from a certain radical post modern/feminist perspective. Obviously a bit misguided, as all people are equal in dignity and equal of the same amount of respect, but equality in that sense doesn’t mean *sameness*. I could no more be a painter than my partner a yoga instructor! Also I can only speak for women (as I am one), and the type of behavioral choices we can make. How men respond? Up to them and not really worth worrying about, as it is outside of our control.
BTW sorry about the frivorcing thing. I have seen how much damage it does, as people were sold a bill of goods about “the one” and “everlasting romantic lurv.” People should spend time trying to be content (not happy, emotions are uncontrollable) and improve their relationship with their partner rather than searching for something to “complete” them.
Ellie says
Re;”So girls should act like 1950”²s ladies instead of slutting around but also move in with people…?”
I have never slept with a man that I was not married too (I am 38) and have only now found
the man I would dearly love to spend the rest of my life with.(Hes divorced, one child)
We do other things in bed (Non intercourse) Because I love him and want to show my love,
but wish to know if he will be mine before I relinquish said virginity.
I do not want 25% of a man I want 100%…I am happy to give my all and I expect the same back.
I was brought up old school and I am trying not to dishonour my parents – It has not been easy!!
Isa says
And now I see the perspective much more clearly! I would say, good on you for that. Consistent principles and an upright character are probably the most attractive things for long term relationships. My only comment, if you would live with him, how in the world could you control yourself to not overstep your boundaries? Takes an insanely strong person to do that… I would certainly never be capable 😛 As my partner said, mija when we are married and live together sex 4 times a day is normal! Maybe once the babies come, once a day. My face was a sight after that little revelation 😀
Emiko says
I know this is a touchy subject and I think we all need to take a step back. Mostly, because I think this post has descended into an insecurity-fest. Just because it worked or didn’t/doesn’t work for you; doesn’t mean it will or will not for someone else.
Have I cohabitated? Yes. Did it work out? No. However, it wouldn’t have worked out regardless of living together or not. At 29 years old I have seen cohabitating relationships work and fail for all sorts of reasons. Often times because of relationship inertia. It is real! And it is often exacerbated by cohabitation. People get married, and DON’T get married over it.
I don’t agree solidly that people should or should not cohabitate. I generally lean towards NOT cohabitating, but that is because the majority of people I talk to (queue the anecdotal evidence) are cohabiting out of convenience and inertia. I would definitely support that couple who is cohabiting as a stepping stone to marriage. What needs to be looked at is people’s reasons. If cohabitating makes you personally more secure in your choice than go ahead and do it. Conversely, the same is true for those who choose not to cohabitate. If being married first makes you more secure than do that. After all, isn’t this debate truly about feeling secure in one’s choice of partner?
Ellie says
Yes with friends who have cohabited first aprox 70% have gone on to pick up the pieces when
it did not lead to marriage and 30% have married…..Not great odds…
Re;” if you would live with him, how in the world could you control yourself to not overstep your boundaries”
Well he respects me, as I so far have no bad history etc…and he takes me more seriously than
previous GF’s who have had many sexual partners. he says I am special because of it etc
and he knows I will give it up to him long before any honeymoon….
I have gotten old because couldn’t find a good match and also due to 24/7 Caring duties for a loved one which curtailed my life for decade plus etc)
He has said, Unless I am able to commit to you,I do not want to get sexual with you.
He does not pressure me, He jokes,”It’s like dating a Muslim” lol….
Also he is open and honest (this is sooo hard to find) He has had a lot of sexual partners.
So I feel I have done my best to be a decent lady and if I move in at some point, and it does
not work out,I will only have one sexual partner on the slate,not to bad all things considered.
He says “He never knows if a r/ship will last until hes lived with the woman for two years
(Prob is I do not really like this I wish to marry and then work very hard of my marriage not be thinking we will “see how it goes” …I do wish he could be more like me…..well will see how it goes!…..
Ellie says
Coitus 4 times a day??..
*Faints!*
There would not be much time too do anything else!…
*Regains Consciousness* 😉
I agree during first year of marriage will be a lot!… I will try my hardest (no matter how tired or unwell I may be feeling I will be generous to my man! (but I hope a pattern will settle down,
max 3 times a week!)
Jen says
Ok, I’ll chime in. I haven’t read all comments because there are a lot of them but I’m getting the feeling a lot of women think they shouldn’t live together before marriage. I felt the same way after my last failed cohabiting agreement didn’t lead to marriage. (Thank god it didn’t!)
However I’ve been in a relationship for about 8 months now that has totally changed my mind. Mr. Perfect and I openly discuss our goals of marriage and family planning. He gets credit for that because he’s shown me what open, honest communication really is and ladies! It’s amazing!
Will I live with him before the ring? Most likely yes. That’s what discussions are leading to but am I worried I’ll never get a ring? Nope, not one tiny bit because we are totally on the same page. If anything he was more marriage minded than I was when we met.
Is there a chance I’ll be blindsided? Sure, anything can happen but I trust this man without a doubt and I know any deal breakers would be a shock to him as well.
So I think that what Evans saying is completely logical. By the time you move in with someone you should be at that point, the point where there is no wondering or fears because that’s all been discussed and worked out. It’s really not a test but getting all the living adjustments out of the way before starting the adjustment of being married is probably a real good idea. I’ve never been married and I know it’s going to be a culture shock for me because I’m so independent so anything the ease that transition is welcomed.
Julia says
Jen, I am totally in the some boat. Some might think we are naive, I think we are going in with clear heads and without pressuring commitment before its time. Cheers!
Karmic Equation says
Hmmm…I don’t think you’re in the same boat as Jen. It appears you moved in with your bf without discussing marriage. You’re not living together to “get all the living adjustments out of the way before starting the adjustment of being married”. In Jen’s scenario, she’s confident she’s heading towards marriage after 8 months of dating and she HASN’T YET moved in with him.
I hope it all works out for you Julia. The only caveat is that if you’re “hoping” that living together will lead to marriage you could be in for a disappointment. If you “know” that he plans to marry you (because you have already discussed marriage and he is seriously considering marrying you) — that’s living together first is wise.
Anything else, while no pressure for him, also provides no reassurance to you, who is looking for marriage because you want kids…other than that he loves you enough to live with you and commit to working on a relationship with you. And you’ve taken yourself off the market during some of your most eligible years.
Julia says
Hmmm…I don’t think you’re in the same boat as Jen. It appears you moved in with your bf without discussing marriage. You’re not living together to “get all the living adjustments out of the way before starting the adjustment of being married”
The conversation I had with him 10 days into dating is that I need to date a man who wants to get married and have children, he told me he knows what I want and is a longterm oriented man. When we began looking for places we discussed our housing needs, one of the agreed needs is 3 bedrooms. One for us, one for his office and one for a future child. We routinely tell one another that we are very sure that we found the one to spend the rest of our lives with. Did I tell him point blank “I will only move in with you if you agree to get engaged after X amount of time” No, I think that is pushy. Does everything we do together point towards us continuing on a path together? yes it absolutely does. I took myself off the market because he has proven himself a man worthy of taking me off the market. I am trusting in his commitment to me, he’s proven worthy of it. Now let’s see how it works out.
Jenn says
I just wanted to give my perspective. I’ve never lived with a man but I know people who have lived together. I can say with confidence that it does sound to me like these situations are based on a lot of promises rather than actual commitment. Guys will say lots of things when relationships are new and exciting, but he may feel differently about the relationship after a while. Then you’d feel like you’re stuck because it will have been ages and still there’s no ring or wedding date on the table. If I could give any piece of advice that I think is important, it would be to not listen to what a man says, but watch what he does. Saying that he’s “long-term oriented” isn’t a true indication that he’s going to propose. Choosing a three-bedroom apartment because of the possibility that it could be turned into a child’s bedroom, isn’t a clear-cut sign that he definitely wants you to be the mother of his kids (that room could just as easily stay as a workout room/media room/den/etc.). Having discussions about marriage isn’t the same as him actually asking you to marry him. I just want women to understand that discussions are fine. But don’t just hang all your hopes on living together as a surefire step toward marriage, especially if there’s no ring or set wedding date. I agree that you should never give a man any timetable as to when he should propose, but it is smart to keep it in the back of your own mind. That way, if he’s not proposing and you have been together for a year or longer, you will not continue to waste your precious time on a guy who will waste your best years while he continues to drag his feet.
Julia says
Interesting this post was brought up again. For the record, we got engaged at 9 months, without any ultimatums or timelines set by me.
Anything else, while no pressure for him, also provides no reassurance to you, who is looking for marriage because you want kids…other than that he loves you enough to live with you and commit to working on a relationship with you. And you’ve taken yourself off the market during some of your most eligible years.
And he took me off the market permanently.
Henriette says
Julia! I had no idea that you got engaged. Congratulations, you adorable red panda, you. I hope you’ll continue to frequent this site even after you’re married
twinkle says
I think in theory, living together before marriage is a good idea, because it lets u know if living together will be, u know, a living HELL. Lol. Or not. Better to find out before marriage!
I have always been shy and so I haven’t ever shared a room, even with my girlfriends, except on a few occasions back when we were kids on school trips. I got used to this and thus have deliberately avoided holidaying with friends/bfs, so I don’t have to share a room. The problem is, I’ve gotten so used to my personal space that I truly dread this part of being married–the ‘sharing a room’ part. Darn.
Oh that’s a red panda? I thought it was a raccoon–no wonder it looked a bit different from the raccoons I’ve seen. It is flipping adorable.
Jen says
Julia: I’m not looking to burst your bubble but honestly, when we do move in I will have no problem discussing timelines either. I won’t feel like it’s pressuring him…and if he thought I was sitting around wondering “when will he propose?!” he would be upset that I didn’t just ask or tell him what I want. That’s the point where you’re truly communicating and caring about each other.
I’m not saying the 2 of you don’t have what it takes or will never get to that point but if marriage is not an easily discussed topic then you’re just not there yet.
Marie says
Julia, I am genuinely ecstatic that you have found someone who makes you happy and am pulling for you. As a sensible woman, I am sure you will probably be fine. But for the less experienced women out there who are contemplating doing what you have done after reading your post (that is, living together with a man after 5 months of dating) I would have to agree with Karmic, Jenn, and Jen and sound a note of caution for the less experienced daters. First, I don’t think it is a good idea to make this kind of decision in the throes of romantic love. One is much more clear-headed after this has turned into companionate love and your love has withstood the test of time. Why the rush to move in? If he is truly the one, then he is not going anywhere and you have time to go slow. Second, in a mature relationship such as Jen describes, having a clear discussion about marriage is not pressuring the guy, because if he is as into you as you claim, then he should be just as eager to marry you as you think he should be. Pressure only occurs when one is trying to convince the other party to do something that they don’t want, so if one feels like one is pressuring the guy only by talking about marriage, maybe this guy’s intentions aren’t as clear cut as he represents.
One of the best pieces of advice Evan ever gave me when other women kept advising me to beat around the bush, read tea leaves, look for signs that he wanted to marry ME (not just the vague get married someday) was to just plain have a conversation. A straightforward, logical, unemotional conversation. Honey, if things continue to go well, I would like for us to get married in the next 2 years. What do you think about that? His response, “So that means we should be engaged in the next 1-1.5 years?” Yes. His response, “Okay, I can do that.” Really, ,the most anti-climactic conversation I’ve ever had, after which we both knew where things stood exactly. And given a concrete goal to work towards, he pretty much stuck to this timeline. He told me later that it was actually helpful I told him this because otherwise it wouldn’t have occurred to him that I wanted to get married that soon and it would have taken him another extra year or two to propose out of inertia. But after giving it some thought he realized I was right and stepped it up.
A trial living together arrangement is all well and good, as long as the parties are clear what that “trial” is. If one person thinks it’s a trial towards something else, and the other party thinks it’s the default arrangement, that’s when trouble starts.
lily says
Here is something that I would have missed had I not co-habitated, at least on a part-time basis, with my boyfriend.
His elderly mother, who lives with him, would bully me at his house (mostly only when he was not in the room). I came out of an abusive marriage (I think I might have PTSD), and her abuse triggered all the memories of my bad marriage, and I was miserable. When I would get upset from her mistreatment of me, instead of hugging me and thanking me for putting up with her for his sake, he would yell at me.
She is in excellent health, and I realized it was not ever going to get better, and I didn’t need all that negative energy in my life. Even though I loved him, and he had many great qualities, I still ended the relationship.
And, yes, it was so much easier to end the relationship without having attorneys involved. Still very painful, but I was so happy that I kept my home that I own. I will ALWAYS keep my own home. Even though I am low income, I own my home outright. I remember too well selling the family home and worrying about where I would live. I don’t ever want that worry again. A home is very important to a woman.
Jenn says
Lily, did this behavior start right after you moved in with him? I just wanted to ask because it seems to me that if she were truly that horrible to live with (and he as well), there would maybe have been some signs of that prior to your moving in. Were you ever alone with her before you lived with him? How did she treat you then? If you did get some sense of a disagreeable attitude from her before you shared the same address, and you brought it up to your boyfriend, what was his reaction?
India says
I think it’s a good idea because then you know what he’s like. If he’s messy or clean, etc.
Ursula says
I mostly agree with Evan regarding living together. However, as a divorced mother of 2 small children (7 and 5 years old) who spend nights with me it is not good for them to see some man moving in with mommy and then leaving after a few months shall things not work out. There has to be some skin in the game for me to live together with a man, an engagement will work. Only then both parties will work hard to make the relationship succeed. I lived together with my prior husband before getting married while being engaged. We were together for 10 years.
Liz says
@ Fusee #16. Thanks for such a clear, even-handed response. It was a treat to read your opinion on this very fascinating topic. By the end of the day, a couple has to find what works for them, and that requires communication, communication, communication.
Henriette says
I found this interesting: http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2009/07/shacking_up_before_marriage
Rebecca says
My boyfriend of 3 years and I are moving in together in a few weeks. We did not make this decision lightly and had discussed it a few times during our relationship and had decided we weren’t ready to make that kind of huge commitment before now. I’ve always had the opinion that I would never get engaged before living with someone, but that I also would never live with someone without first discussing with them that I feel living together before marriage is a sort of trial-run and I expect an engagement if we end up being happy living together. I don’t have a set timeline (“I need an engagement 6,8,12 months after unpacking or I’m done.”), but it’s an understanding. I had this talk with my boyfriend and he agreed wholeheartedly and feels exactly the same about cohabitation as I do. He’s actually the one that told me he feels that moving in together is a way to determine if we’re ready to be married, and if all goes well, he would love to get married and start the next chapter of our lives together. I can’t even imagine marrying someone before living together. I don’t believe you can truly know someone and know if you work well together until you’ve lived with them for a while. Then again, my parents didn’t live together before marriage and they’re going on 38 years. This is just a feeling I have personally. It’s personal for everyone and that’s the point. there’s no right answer.
JoeK says
Sounds like you’re both taking a very intentional approach to living together, which I think is what Evan is talking about.
The problem with living together first seems to come from how a couple arrives at living together – whether it was a planned, conscious, intentional decision or did they just kind of slide into it?
Your case sounds very intentional and planned – I’d be more concerned about the cases where the couple decides “let’s live together, it’ll cut our rent costs in half”. The impetus to cohabitate should come from a desire to commingle lives.
That said, I decided long ago to never cohabitate (I’ve done it twice) – if I can’t decide I want to marry someone, I have no reason living with her.
MG says
Many of the guys that have commented on this post seem to be speaking from an emotional and defensive place, including @Evan. Evan may be biased on this subject, considering the fact that he is 1. a MAN, 2. a MARRIED MAN and 3. also lived with his wife prior to marriage and experienced a positive outcome. These facts seem to have made it impossible for him to view things objectively OR from a Woman’s perspective. I disagree with co-habitation. For one, I am not religious but I do believe in God. After years of dating and frustration, I can see the benefits of a more respectful and traditional courtship. As one woman mentioned above, theres just too much sex and shacking up with less weddings. Back in the day, men were expected to marry….because most women of stature were not just “giving it up”…the women that did give it up were “loose women”, “concubines” “harlots”, not wives. Fast forward through the Women’s Lib movement and you have women out earning and out sexing men LOL yet, women are still called whores to this day? LOL a double standard still exist when it comes to the expectations of both sexes . At the end of the day, I believe in courtship and marriage before living together. Why? because these things, in my opinion, protect you from the shame, embarassment or frustration of sharing your body, time, money and life with someone that does not seek to present you as his respected and cherished wife. I don’t care what a man has to say on this point. Any man worthy of your respect will respect you by honoring your religious/spiritual/traditional values and seal the damn deal. Period. Anything else is just “Playing House”. I’m dating a guy right now that wants us to live together yet is unsure about marriage. It’s not an attractive deal to me. Two exes lived with me years ago and it was a nightmare both times. Why? because you begin to act like a wife when you’re not ; doing laundry, cooking, asking when hes coming home etc. without the rewards of a committed marriage. Not for me. My guy is not sure if it wants marriage or to marry me so what is living together going to solve? At the end of the day, love requires trust, work and commitment. If both people want each other enough, they will be saying “I DO”. Anything else is BS. I’m not moving in nor signing a wack ass prenup. How about whats yours is yours and whats mine is mine and if you want that to change, put a effin 20 carat ring on it and let me decide…
Casey says
I think living together takes away the fun part of living together as a married couple! Living together is a mark of a new life together after getting married and I think living together before that takes away from the this new experience. Plus I want to know that the man I’m marrying is willing to work things out even when we might be compatible living together at first. That proves to me that our love is stronger than just compatibility and being able to live together in peace.
Becca says
I did it twice, over four years each time. Never, ever again. The fact is, moving in together IS merging your lives. People who cohabit as a trial to spare the pain of divorce are fooling themselves. Yes, you’re eliminating legal hassle and financial complications. However, the pain of mourning a dying relationship is still there. Separating belongings is still there. Having to relocate and start over is still there. Living together allows the convenience of bypassing the official stuff if it doesn’t work out, but it is by no means any less emotionally traumatic than divorce when it comes time to acknowledge that a split is inevitable. And for what it’s worth, I’ve found the old adage to be pretty accurate. “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”
Riley says
Evan make have good insights and ideas but I disagree. I find it very extremely judgmental and close minded of him to think that every couple needs to cohabit before marrying each other in order to have a successful marriage. I myself am in a committed relationship with my girlfriend of 4 years. I am 21 and and she is 20. According to these standards majority of America would think we are crazy to not be married at this point. The reason we are waiting to cohabit is because we believe as a Christian upbringing that it isn’t a good idea because it is essentially playing house. Also it would make a huge difference if we know what exactly what we already want in a spouse before cohabitation. That is what is missing from couples these days.
flonie says
I’ve had this discussion with my ldr boyfriend.
We’ve talked about our future and lately the discussion has been around marriage. But here’s the conundrum.
I want to have kids (I’m 38) he says I’m too old for kids and he doesn’t want kids. He made that clear from the beginning.
We live in different countries, the only way we could have a future is if we get married. He’s ok with getting married, but he does not believe in the concept of marriage and what it represents.
This is why:
He says that when people get married, they stop trying. They stop loving their partners and making the relationship work because you are now stuck with that person. His reasoning is that when people live together, their relationships are more likely to succeed because two people “work” at the relationship to keep the other person.
I respect his opinion but I disagree with it. He claims that if you get married, then what happens if you fall out of love with the other person. I said, then you get a divorce. But he says I contradict myself because I think marriage permanent. I said yes, as long as everyone works on it.
Background story: His parents got divorced when he was a child and while they have a good relationship, it’s scarred him.
I’m sure Evan if he reads this says I should run for the hills. You’re probably right, but I still hold my viewpoint that marriage is the highest form of commitment and declaration. If you don’t believe in it, that’s ok but I do.
DeeGee says
flonie said: “he doesn’t want kids”
I think you will have to decide whether that is a deal-breaker, before you get married. Being married isn’t going to make that difference between you two any easier or better.
and said: “He’s ok with getting married, but he does not believe in the concept of marriage and what it represents.”
He’s contradicting himself. In my opinion, he doesn’t want to get married, and is only saying he does to placate you. This to me is a red-flag.
and said: “He says that when people get married, they stop trying.”
Some might, that would be up to the individuals and what they thought a marriage certificate meant. I don’t believe that it is the rule though.
flonie says
DeeGee
We have to get married if we are to have a future. In order for him to become a permanent resident here, we’d have to get married there’s no two ways about it.
Jeannette says
Personally, I am in the middle. When I was dating my late husband, he was fully aware that I wouldn’t move in unless we were engaged to be married. Once we were engaged, we officially lived together for the 9 months of our engagement. Truthfully, we were already spending most of our nights together. It gives you the opportunity to work out the kinks and breakup if needed before “I do” if you are uncompatible. I’ve seen way too many people live together for long periods of time and unhappy because one is always awaiting the ring. And as an older dater that owns property and is hopefully dating someone with their own place the financial stakes of living together became greater.
Colleen says
Oh….Please marry me!!! I’ll move in with you beforehand so you can feel “sure” of your love for me…whatever you need, I’ll be there to please, Sans the ring, morning, noon, and night, who cares what my friends, parents, co-workers, or God thinks…it’s Only *You my darling and I am here to please and willing to leave my childhood romantic “fantasies” at the door and you should leave your chivalry there too. It’s a great idea Afterall, let’s save Nothing for marriage, I’m here to put all my silly romantic notions far behind me so that you can feel “sure” of me. You know what F that, if you can’t be sure if your love and trust for me 2 years after dating then I’m unsure of You. I wouldn’t waste this much time personally anyway, but there are Plenty of women who will and do – why are you telling us to waste more time cohabiting first. Well…guess what doing so will actually result in girls?!: he will Still want you to live with him without all the benefits of marriage after he sees you without your make-up on, but You will want to run for the hills Forever after spending a bit of time as his maid, cook, social planner, and viewing his ummm less than romantic personal moments, and neuroticisms abs habits. TV in bed, anyone? Marry a Prince!!! Or save yourself the heartache and skip it altogether!…a Prince presents you with The Ring vs the Shackup. Nuff said. Poor advice on this one, Evan. How desperate do you think we should be again????
Grounded and Happy says
I’m in my mid-50’s. I met my fiance, who is a year older than I am, 4 months ago and soon after that, he moved in with me. We are very compatible and, most important, both of us are willing to self-reflect, compromise, and engage in dialog when problems arise between us. This kind of behavior was never typical for him but I insisted that he learn how to do it or leave. As a result of his willingness to evolve, the major problems that could have ended our relationship have been resolved. I was always attracted to him but because of the profound inner changes he chose to make at my request, I can see us being together for the long haul.
He tells me all the time that I make him a better man, the kind of man he always wanted to be. For my part, he makes me a more loving and generous partner because I try to show him everyday how much I appreciate all the things he does for me.
Almost from the start, he wanted to marry me. But I always said wait. I wanted my 17 year old daughter, who lives with my ex husband, to graduate from high school. I also didn’t want to make that kind of commitment without knowing if he would adapt to my deal breakers. He has and then some.
But my decision to change my stance and marry him after knowing him for just a few months wasn’t based on love or chemistry. It was, however based on compatibility. But even that wasn’t enough to make me change my mind about waiting 18 months at least. What did? Money. And I told him so. Neither one of us are wealthy but we do okay. I am satisfied with what I have and he is too.
But I began to think about my future. I am on disability, which will likely end in a few months and drastically effect my income for the worse. I will be returning to college for a second degree to potentially increase my earning ability. But even that is no guarantee. In the event of my fiance’s death, because we’re not married, I would be entitled to nothing he owns, which is very little anyway. However, if we were married, I’d be entitled to most or all of the social security benefit he’s accrued over 35 years of steadily working.
So, after him asking me to marry him about a hundred times and me always saying “wait,” I finally said I’d marry him and I told him exactly why. He didn’t care that I made my decision based on finances and practicality. He just wanted me to say “yes.”
I’ve felt kind of like I was using him. But I don’t anymore. The fact is I love him deeply and we fit each other’s personalities and goals so well and effortlessly it’s remarkable to me because I’ve never had this type of relationship.
Still, the couple of times when I felt like I was using him, and told him so, he firmly reiterated how happy I make him. He asked me do I love him (Yes) and he said all that matters to him is that he has my love and that I’ve agreed to be his wife. Since I’ve agreed to marry him, he’s re-proposed a couple of times as a romantic gesture–once he even got down on one knee to do it. That wasn’t the first time he’d done that. It was just the first time I agreed to marry him now instead of later.
So I wrote all this to say, there are varying reasons why people choose to get married. Our marriage is happening before we got to know one another over a long period of time. But arranged marriages happen like that every day and many of them are happy and last, while, of course, some fail. When you talk to people from countries where arranged marriages are common and in which love may not even be on the list of why couples marry but compatibility and financial security definitely are, some say this type of marriage is the only way to go.
In a sense, since I found my fiance online and I’ve agreed to marry him–because I took a hard look at the bottom line financially, we have a high degree of compatibility as well as a real friendship and partnership in which we laugh and problem solve together everyday (and dance together often) and a phenomenal sex life–I feel our union is more like an arranged marriage. And I’m glad that’s the case.
For us, living together was the perfect intermediate step. It helped me see if I could live with him and vice versa. Actually, before we met, although I wanted a long term relationship, as someone whose 20-year marriage ended a little more than a year ago, by my choice, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to remarry. But, based on everything I wrote here and more that I haven’t mentioned, I am willing to now.
Grounded and Happy says
This doesn’t really matter as far as the point I meant to make goes, but I intended to say my disability benefit might end in a few years. What I want to clarify is that my planning as it relates to marrying soon after meeting my fiance was for the near future but no so near that my personal finances are going south in the coming months.
yazara says
I have lived with loads of guys at least 5, I never wanted to marry any of them and I knew it , now I’m 43 and I have met the guy I want to marry, he’s 42 and has a job not loads of money I have more than him.
what I will say is I have had 2 wealthy boyfriends millionaires one was a professional footballer and the other in real estate, 3 have asked me to marry them and I was never interested , but I lived with them.
no I’m 43 and have met a guy that keeps me on my toes and financially not that stable I don’t care I love him without a penny as I feel rich he is in my life, will I live with him no way, not before the wedding, he stays round 3 times a week I’m myself, I don’t pretend we both have one child each and yes I have said if I don’t get a ring by the end of the year I’m out, I’ve been with him 19 months this I believe is plenty of time for a 42 year old man to know.
it will be 2.5 years by the end of the year if he needs more time then sorry I’m with the wrong guy, I also know my worth. There has too be a cut off period and living together is only good if you don’t want to marry someone.
Also so if I leave and he comes back with a ring I will refuse him am not into forcing anyone to marry, he knows my thoughts and he is showing signs he is happy with my decision. He has stepped up his game and is going out of his way to be more committed, high value woman don’t live together unless a date is set and a ring given. Me I prefer to wait till after I’m 43 and older means you can see any red flags much earlier than at 23.
yazara says
When more women make themselves sexually available, the pool of marriageable men diminishes. “In a world where women do not say no, the man is never forced to settle down and make serious choices,” writes George Gilder, author of “Men and Marriage.”
Girl0 says
I personally want to live with my boyfriend over the summer (or longer) to see how we’ll get along over an extended period of time, and also if he’s really a man I want to marry. But, I would stay with him while continuing to pay for my current apartment. That way, if it doesn’t work out, I can just come back to my place. If he wants to *officially* live together, and I give up my apartment, I want to be married first. I worked to hard to get this apartment and my independence. I’m not gonna put myself in a position where I can be kicked out or forced to search for a new apartment.
Lisa says
I think it is a must do. If you are someone who is concerned that if you do a man won’t committ or it will delay marriage or possibly about familial judgment do this get engaged and move in together six months before the wedding. A very close friend of mine, smart highly educated mid 30s dated a man for two years. He was divorced with a child but they all got along well. Her family was religious but they were okay with them moving in. He was opposed because at the time he was caring for an ailing parent and living in the home (red flag) and his father was a minister. He did not live with his first wife before marriage either but they were much younger. Sure they saw each other a ton, spent nights and holidays and so on but he always had that space. You see he was a binge drinking alcoholic who also did drugs but he was readily able to hide it. Had they lived together this would have been next to impossible. So they married and after a while year of hell involving physical abuse on his part they divorced. Living together would have prevented thus.
a grown woman says
I can’t believe I read all these comments. *momentary regret*
Simple: Have standards, keep standards while dating. Move in together WITH ESTABLISHED STANDARDS/BOUNDARIES. (grow a spine ladies, see Fusee’s post)………..Get married or GET OUT.”
Stop your stupid commitment whining. Stop feeding the paranoid little girl inside your mind who feels destroyed if your man is talking to a hot girl, and for the love of god, please start loving yourself first and setting boundaries.
Katrina says
I think it depends. If you have a lot to lose, e.g. career, family obligations, etc., definitely don’t move in before there is a formal commitment. That can be engagement or marriage, and that depends on you. Do you know what keeps a lot of married couples together? They want to work it out because of shared assets and liabilities, social commitments, shared burden of child rearing, etc. If you are merely cohabitating, the stakes aren’t as high, even if you may function in similar ways. There is a reason why marriage has legal protections in place. This is a cynical look at the institution, but if you think about man’s natural predilections, it’s smart to take advantage of the protections in place. I would argue that a man who wants to cohabitate before a formal commitment is cynical as well.
Hold off for the man who shares the same view as you regarding cohabitation. They definitely exist.
Fromkin says
Vehemently disagree. I moved in with a girlfriend, 26, with whom I was in agreement about almost nothing. We both wanted to give it a try; that was it. We simply talked it out as we went along. It was a fantastic opportunity.
Mary says
Searched the blog for this one. I’m not sure what to think after reading so many different opinions and experiences about moving in together. For me, the reason I searched is I currently do live with my boyfriend and there are issues popping up that are making me want to run. It’s been six months. We’re both 50 and both divorced with grown children. Marriage wasn’t the goal, a happy life together was. It isn’t that we don’t love each other can’t compromise when we disagree. No… it’s that he drives me nuts. I’m retired military,, he works 7 days a week and sleeps so much that if I wasn’t living here I would rarely see him. I’ve become a stay at home fake wife to cook, clean, and be his secretary, accountant, and occasional sex partner. Mind you, this man does tell me he loves me, appreciates me, and shows that through his actions. But as much as he works, all he does is complain every single day how much he hates working and he’s financially irresponsible. He complians the entire time he’s awake about his bad back and knees. Honestly, I got it. 70 hours a week in a steel mill is HARD. He resents me being retired and it shows. It doesn’t matter that I work hard at home to give us a comfortable happy place, or that I constantly show and tell him I appreciate everything he does and let him know I love him. It’s not my fault that he is unhappy. I’m being dragged down by his attitude and feel sad too, all the time. Our communication skills basically suck now, out of pure resentment. If we had chosen not to live together I would not have figured this out, it would have been me that disappeared because he really wouldn’t have made enough time for us in the first place. Now the “exit plan” seems like a real option but I’m so confused. The good parts are what is keeping me here. The bad parts are things I’m wondering if we can work out if we could get past the crap communication issue. It’s enough to make me feel like I really screwed up. Am I missing something? Is my boyfriend unhappy with our relationship or just can’t deal with me being retired…. either way… it’s probably time to go. The two years it takes to really know a person happened a lot faster than I expected. 8 months. If we do end this… would I move in with someone again? At my age probably not. I’d be asking more very direct questions and pay much better attention to not just words, but reactions and actions. We’ll see. I’m not ending this without trying to communicate my fears and concerns properly in a way that won’t make him shut down. Mansplaining is hard to learn!!!