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John
Allow me to answer your real letter with a fake letter, okay?
Dear John,
I’m reading your profile right now. I notice you’re interested in mixed martial arts, the stock market, and golf. I notice you don’t really say much about what kind of boyfriend you’d be or how you’d like to build a life together. I don’t see anything that indicates that you’re a great communicator, or that you have a good sense of humor. In short, there’s not much for me to work with here. In fact, there’s very little to give me hope that if we were to sit across a dinner table for two hours, we would have anything in common to discuss.
What do you have to say to that?
-Mary
Why the hell would you want to go out with a woman who has absolutely nothing in common with you and nothing interesting to say?
I don’t know about you, John, but if I got that question from Mary, I’d be thinking: “Then why would you consider writing to me at all?! If you’re thinking of going out with me despite the fact that I didn’t say anything interesting, that must mean that you’re solely writing because you think I’m cute or because you think I’m rich. And frankly, I don’t want to go out with anyone who wants me exclusively for those reasons.”
I may be in the minority on that one, but that’s how I truly feel.
So allow me to ask you, point-blank, John: Why the hell would you want to go out with a woman who has absolutely nothing in common with you and nothing interesting to say?
Because she’s pretty?
Yeah, that and $.75 will buy you a Snickers bar.
I’m not picking on you, my friend — no more than I pick on all of my clients who do the same exact thing.
I’ll usually give them a homework assignment to build up their online favorites list. The following week every woman on the list looks like she’s a Maxim magazine reject. Each one is hotter and sluttier looking than the next. Same with my women clients, who often think that they should be paired with young, square-jawed, muscular cuties, regardless of whether they themselves are modelesque. Hey, we want what we want, right?
So my first answer to you is this: stop writing to people who have nothing to say. Because if you do, you’re pretty much inviting yourself to spend time and money on a very boring first date. Not always. I’m sure there’s some gorgeous woman out there who wrote nothing interesting who is simply AMAZING conversation. But it would seem to me that your better bet would be in looking for the women who are 7’s in looks and 10’s in personality. That’s where you find the keepers, in my experience.
So my first answer to you is this: stop writing to people who have nothing to say.
My second answer to you — the one you really want to hear — is this: use her girly details to your benefit. If she says she loves reading Martha Stewart Living, you can talk about the magazine they named after you, which teaches men how to artfully drape their underwear over the lamp without setting your house on fire. If she says she likes gardening, you can talk about how inefficient it is as a means of sustenance. After all, it took you nearly two months just to make one salad! If she says she likes shopping, you can talk about how you do, too — as long as it takes less than a half-hour and only occurs once a year. Hey, there’s nothing wrong with having clothes from high school if your date’s never seen ‘em before.
This technique is known as Fun Fiction and is fully articulated and fleshed out in Volume 4 of my Finding The One Online CD series. There’s even a workbook included which shows you exactly how to do it. If you’re serious about getting results, you should give it a whirl — and at least consider the idea that the hot chick with nothing to say may not be your ideal first date.
By the way, my new Facebook Page is now up (thanks to Thomas, my stellar intern!) and I’m going to be engaging in more regular discussions on there. Just click here or on the blue Facebook icon on the right sidebar to connect with me. See you there!
Your friend,
Evan
Honey says
I could never contact someone who put only the bare minimum (or worse, spelling/grammar errors) on their profile. I’d also never agree to meet anyone who couldn’t write me an e-mail with three solid paragraphs.
But then, I recognize this as my own personal bias. I’m a writer and that’s the main way I communicate even when I’m in the relationship, so if it’s not how the other person communicates, too, then things are going to be very rough for both of us…
I like Evan’s fun fiction idea…you could also challenge her to write an interesting e-mail. “Tell me 3 things that are important to you that you haven’t listed in your online profile,” or something like that.
.-= Honey’s last blog ….Hello 30! =-.
Honey says
I keep forgetting to click the “notify me of followup comments” thing. I wish it was automatically checked…
.-= Honey’s last blog ….One Super Important Thing I Learned From Dating Three Chicks At Once =-.
Jennifer says
I’m sure there are lots of people out there who wouldn’t necessarily be a bad date or mate, but are *clueless* when it comes to what makes a good online profile.
And I’d wager a guess that a large group of women (especially moreso than men) see online dating as just another way to be picked up, like at a bar/club- you go in and look cute and when someone talks to you, *then* you turn on the charm as it were. So they spend more time on pretty pictures and not saying anything offensive in their profile than on being interesting and trying to trade on that currency.
Doesn’t mean they won’t end up being interesting, but it may mean they aren’t used to dating that way and putting that out there up front/right away. So thank you Evan for helping the OP out at the end 🙂
And just for clarification, I don’t necessarily advocate what I stated above, i just recognize that it probably happens a lot. All things considered if you have two profiles and one is more interesting than the other but both people are attractive, go with the more interesting one!
Michael says
You nailed it exactly, Evan.
I think the “browse photos, then send generic e-mail to cute women” strategy has proven for most guys to be a very low-risk gambit: he doesn’t have to do any creative writing, he can get his online dating done within minutes, and if he actually gets a positive response from that hot chick (who might not give him the time of day in “real life”), score!
The problem is that it’s also a low-reward gambit, too, unless you’re lucky enough to find a woman who has no clue – and do you really want a clueless woman?
Attractive women get so many responses online that you had better be unique and actually speak to her uniqueness to stand out. I had a great time when I dated online, and in hindsight that was the key.
.-= Michael’s last blog ….Actions Do Speak Louder Than Words =-.
Kathleen says
I have been a regular reader of Evan’s blog for about a year but have never posted. While in theory I generally agree with his advice wholeheartedly, I find myself in a position that he advocates and realize it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. I have been dating a man for seven months that did go for me as a “7” at best in looks (to him) and a “10” in personality. But I am consistently reminded that I am not all that attractive to him (not as much in words as in actions or lack thereof). I am not a “10” in looks but have dated plently of men who felt I was to them. So while picking people based on their personality and at least a mild level of attraction seems reasonable, it isn’t very good for the self-esteem of the person you caught. I also think it may well lead to straying when people think there is always something better around the corner. Just a different viewpoint on the situation. As to the OP’s question, I agree that a sense of humor goes a long way towards starting conversation and getting a women to open up and reciprocate.
Steve says
How Do You Write An Email To Someone With Nothing Interesting in Her Profile?
I don’t.
Steve says
If I don’t put a description of who I am,what I like, in my profile I get flooded with nothing but emails from women who are only interested in sex with crude lines and sometimes with rude pictures attached 🙂
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach says
Good advice by Evan, but I also agree with Jennifer’s keen observation. I don’t see how it would necessarily hurt to contact some of these women who have not posted much on their profile, as I am sure there may be some of these hidden gems with beauty and personality out there.
But I understand it may not be worth the time to try to find them. And then again, I have never tried on-line dating, so it would be hard for me to know :)…
.-= Mikko Kemppe – Relationship Coach’s last blog ….Dating Tip For Nice Guys – Video Blog =-.
Jennifer says
LOL Steve!
starthrower68 says
Jennifer, you laugh, but Steve’s comment is more true than you know. There are an awful lot of “bawdy” women out there these days!
With regard to the question, a well-written profile is a necessity good looks or no. There are so many thousands of profiles to sift through, so you need to have something that sets you apart. Now, I don’t deny that the better looking people will get more looks and responses, and that’s fine, we all like attractive people. Just make sure you get a sense for other qualities so you can have a balanced impression,
JuJu says
Kathleen,
why are you still dating the guy? 😮
And what number is he, in looks?
Steve says
In Evan’s first book he wrote what I think is one of the best pieces of advice on writing online profiles: do not use general terms to describe yourself — make it specific. General terms do not separate you from anyone else.
For example
” I like eating out, spending time with friends and watching movies at home”.
Of course you do, you and 100,000 other people on match.com. Why should I invest 20 min writing you a nice email versus the other 24 attractive women within 5 miles of my house who like those same things?
If you describe yourself in specific terms you become much more individual and *interesting*:
“I like going to a new restaurant at least once a week. Next on my list is that new Burmese place with the pie made out of rice. I have a core group of friends who I have gone dancing with every weekend for the past year. When resting up from those things I’ve been enjoying a new collection of film noir netflix just started offering”.
Steve says
@starthrower68 #10
I can’t tell you how tired I am of women getting on the phone and only being interested in me telling them what kind of underwear I am wearing. 🙂
Buck25 says
Steve,
So why not play along with them, just for fun? I would! Lighten up and banter with them a little; it’s just harmless fun, unless you want to make something else of it. You don’t have to go out with them if you don’t like them after the conversation. See how some of the ladies here reacted? Don’t you ever just flirt and laugh with women, not because you want something from them (like a dare, or sex, or whatever), but just for fun? It can make you and a woman feel good and laugh. Who says we have to be serious all the time?:)
Kristyn says
@ Steve
What kind
Jk.
Kathleen says
Juju, he is good to my kids (I have three, ages 11, 13, and 18), responsible, giving, etc. So after about 7 years of bad internet dates, I guess I am kindof “betting on 20” with him. He is probably better looking than I am overall, I would call him at least an 8. I have dated better and worse looking men, but they still made me feel attractive, desirable, etc. So while settling to some extent is logical, it sucks to know about it. This seems to be a frequent topic here, and the general consensus seems to be that our expectations are so high, we can never obtain what we want, especially as we get older, have children from a previous marriage, etc. So I know there needs to be some compromise on what I want and what a guy wants, but knowing it would take a ton of plastic surgery to be “attractive” to this guy really sucks. I also think that women in general are more willing to overlook some appearance issues and wait to see if chemistry will develop than men are. So in that regard, I disagree with Evan’s advice to go for someone who the OP views as a “7” in looks, because there is someone out there who views that same girl as a “10” and in the end it does the girl an injustice to settle for her when someone else would be thrilled to have her.
casualencounters.com/blog says
Send her a picture of your cock.
.-= casualencounters.com/blog’s last blog ….Interview with Ross Williams of WhiteLabelDating.com =-.
Sally says
So, Steve….boxers? Briefs? Or Commando? 🙂
Steve says
casualencounters.com/blog Aug 27th 2009 at 01:57 pm 16
Send her a picture of your cock.
Might as well just post it here and get the giggling over with:
Selena says
Re: #15
Well put Kathleen.
Carol says
You’re right as usual Evan, it’s a two way street. Since we are all cavewomen, cavemen underneath, it’s almost always the “looks” people go for even if there isn’t much substance. Guys profiles either seem to have 2 lines of nothing to go from, or a book with so many details you don’t know where to start. If only more people would get your message.
I don’t know what “Steve” looks like but it must be good if women are saying those things, interesting he doesn’t like it, maybe he should say that in his profile. Unfortunately these women make it more difficult for other women who are looking for more than a roll in the hay.
Steve says
Kristyn Aug 27th 2009 at 01:17 pm 14
@ Steve
What kind
snip….
Sally Aug 27th 2009 at 02:15 pm 17
So, Steve.boxers? Briefs? Or Commando? 🙂
This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Ladies,… I’m more than a cute tush and boyishly handsome good looks. I have a mind, read books, think deep thoughts, etc… 🙂
Diana says
The writer brings up two good issues ~ those who say little to nothing in their profile, and how he doesn’t feel they share any interests due to their girl talk. I can relate because I often sigh and think, “Okay, I don’t ride a Harley, shoot animals, play golf, climb mountains, or jump out of planes.” Something like that. 🙂
In my own profile, I put my creative writing skills to the test. I can probably safely guarantee it’s one-of-a-kind. 🙂 I had a blast writing it. And while staying true in sharing who I am, I also tried to see my profile from a man’s perspective, and included things that accomplished both. One thing I have learned is to write for your targeted audience. The opening sentence in your profile should also be so edgy, captivating, whatever; like the first line or paragraph in a novel, they feel compelled to keep reading. I also let the men know that I was open to and interested in new experiences and provided a few “manly” ideas.
I have received good feedback, but the one thing about my online dating profile that drives me crazy is when it doesn’t get read because the men are too trigger happy with the winks, based on physical appearances alone! It’s not because of my writer’s ego. I really want to feel that the man contacted me because he also thinks he might like me for who I really am.
JuJu says
What is it with the winks? What’s the appeal? Why do people use them? More importantly, do they seriously expect a reaction to that??
I have this male friend, and somehow the conversation once turned to this topic of women not liking winks, only he couldn’t understand why. After a lengthy explanation and an argument that ensued, he still was not convinced! How absurd is that? Here we are, I am a woman, you are a man, AND I AM TELLING YOU THAT THIS IS SOMETHING I DON’T LIKE, and yet instead of taking heed, you argue about the supposed efficiency of winks as a method of communication!
No wonder men don’t seek dating and relationship advice even though they are obviously in greater need of it. 😐
But yeah, I hate it, too, when my online masterpieces are not read. Usually I can tell from the message, though, and usually (usually) I do not respond to those men.
P.S.: handsome cock, Steve. :-p
Dan says
If you actually put that in your profile, that is one thing. However, in general, guys (those who are usually expected to initiate contact) use winks because they have no idea if those girls are going to even reply. Just because a great guy sends great custom e-mails, it doesn’t mean any anyone of those girls he e-mails will ever be interested or even reply. It becomes a huge huge waste of time and effort for guys. If guys ‘winked’ at girls and ‘girls’ winked at guys (or the equivalent) it would be beneficial for both. Better than having one person (usually the guy) trying to hit a bulls-eye in the dark.
..And your creativity, etc. in your profile only benefits a guy you would show interest in – not the 10 guys or so you would have no interest in, regardless of how creative or witty their e-mail is. It is only wasting their time.
starthrower68 says
Diana, ok right?? I have that issue; I go to the trouble to be creative, witty, erudite, etc., and show that I’m more than just an attractive picture and with some, it’s just lost on them. But I guess those are the ones who aren’t really serious to begin with.
downtowngal says
“Why the hell would you want to go out with a woman who has absolutely nothing in common with you and nothing interesting to say?”
Amen!
starthrower68 says
Steve @ #22,
Dear god man! That thing is huge!
Michael says
@Kathleen: It sounds like the real problem is his treatment of you. You shouldn’t even be aware that he sees you as a “7 at best.” The kind of relationship where he will let you know you’re inferior in his mind is an unhealthy relationship – and that WILL trickle down to your kids.
As far as Evan being “wrong,” there are plenty of guys to whom a “7” will still get their full affection and respect. This guy just isn’t one of them.
.-= Michael’s last blog ….The War to Break Your Willpower =-.
sophie says
Hmm, while I’m not overly fond of winks I do think there’s a case to be made for them! Sometimes I find that if a guy winks, and I don’t respond, he then sends an email. I now know that by replying “no thanks” to winks, I can cut down the volume of emails I receive and also save a guy a lot of trouble writing an email. If I wink back, it lets him know that an email will not be wasted, I am open to establishing new links!
To begin with I did think winks were a bit of a cop out, but now I know quite how much work it is for guys to get from the “make contact” stage to the “meet up for a date” stage, I don’t actually mind them. It doesn’t necessarily mean a guy doesn’t think you’re worthy of an email, it may actually mean that he realises, due to the strength of your profile, that you are quite probably inundated with emails from men, many with great profiles, and that you might not have a lot of time to reply to emails from people you’re not interested in. I think for some men it can be a courtesy. Although for many its just laziness! Or do I have an overly optimistic view of men!!!??
Buck25 says
Sophie,
A lot of women say they don’t like winks from men and prefer emails, and I do think we guys tend to overuse them. I think, though, that the wink can be a very useful tool for a woman. Suppose you really want to know more about a guy whose profile you noticed, but you don’t want to email him first (which a lot of women don’t like to do). Why not just wink, instead. Takes little effort, and just might give him just enough of a nudge to email you. If a woman sends me a wink and I haven’t seen her profile (maybe she’s just outside one of my filters, or just outside my search radius), I’ll check it out, and if it’s at all promising, I’ll email her. I’ve gotten a few dates that way, so it does work to some extent. I didn’t send many winks during my last stint online, but when I did, and a woman winked back, I’d definitely email her.
Christine says
For all it’s worth, my relationship with my boyfriend started with his wink! Before that, I actually had several bad experiences with winks–getting them from men who just wanted casual hookups (and occasionally, from women. I doublechecked and made sure I didn’t somehow check off the wrong box, and made it clear I’m heterosexual! Although who knows, maybe those winks were more like the “like” button on my Facebook photos and posts…I still scratch my head over those)
But when I got my boyfriend’s wink, there was something about his profile that just clicked with me. So I gave it a chance, and the rest is history. Later on, he actually told me the same thing as what you said, and figured I would be inundated by emails that I wouldn’t have time to answer, so tried a wink first.
Ever since then, he’s really taken the reins and has continually escalated the relationship–by asking me out for a first date, planning subsequent dates, gradually increasing the amount of contact and time we spent together, etc. So a wink doesn’t always necessarily mean that the guy is lazy. If I had let all the other negative experiences get to me and made bad assumptions about him for winking–I would have missed out on the best relationship I’ve ever had. So if you get a wink from someone you could possibly like, I say go for it.
Angela says
Because she looks good and has the right pedigree. In any event, she may turn out to be more then expected. To me its like walking up to someone one in a club or restaurant. You use a line to capture their attention. I must admit that I do not write long emails but then I am very reactive and not proactive online. My profile is decent and has some nice lines and I do respond to winks. To me it is equivalent to a smile across the room. Easy for a guy to do and the rejection is not so hard to swallow. If I respond equally, then send the email. You have to strike a balance: those long emails make my eyes glaze over ! lol They are just too much!!! Plus so many people are different in person. How many people are funny and clever via email and dull as dirt in person. It is as if they take on another persona. After a few emails I am old fashion and talk via phone.
Selena says
@ #22
And no “shrinkage” even out in the snow! Dazzling.
JuJu says
Sophie,
since you used the phrase “due to the strength of your profile”, I have to counter with the following: yes, there are many people online. A veritable bounty. So many profiles that it would be impossible to look through them all even if you wanted to.
And yet, how many profiles are actually well written, language-wise? How many people have anything interesting to say? How many _adults_ can even spell?
In my experience with online dating, it’s way fewer than 10%. Which is why, knowing perfectly well how my profile stands out in that sea of [at best] mediocrity, I expect a fitting response.
FWIW, this was precisely that guy’s reasoning: that this way he doesn’t spend too much time on a woman who might not be interested, and if she is interested, she will wink back. Only for me this means that even if I would have been otherwise interested in the guy, now I won’t reply because, instead of writing a letter to introduce himself properly, he chose to wink. That is just not something I see a quality man doing.
downtowngal says
Kathleen #5, I’m not sure why your experience relates to Evan’s advice. Are you saying that a guy will go for either personality OR looks, based on your current situation?
Any guy who TELLS you you’re a “7” in the looks (or any other) dept is being judgemental, so you need to ask yourself if this is the type of guy you want to be with. Don’t sell youself short – one man’s 7 is another’s 10+. You want a guy who likes you for YOU and not rate you on a number’s scale.
Diana says
The winks and flirts do bother me, but it’s much more annoying when they do this and there’s no indication they read my profile. It borders on rude to me. I wouldn’t dream of winking or emailing a guy based on his looks alone. If you think about winks in a real-life situation, I think most guys wait until the woman smiles at them before possibly approaching her. I don’t think the guy sits across the way and winks or smiles without a sense of invitation from the girl.
The winks give me the impression that the guy’s sitting there looking only at thumbnails and clicking away to as many women as possible without regard to who these women are, myself included. What’s the point of writing a good profile, if few bother to read it? If you haven’t made the effort to read my profile, I’m not interested.
It is on the rarest of occasion when I will respond to a wink beyond a “No thanks,” and let the guy know that I am open to his reading my profile. And what do you think happens? He is never seen or heard from again, often with a profile that’s gone missing. Scammers I guess. Case proven.
Those who are truly interested and are cut from some of the same threads as I will make that little bit of extra effort, and send an email. I try to not be picky about the email’s lack of creativity, etc. because hey, at least the guy tried. That’s more than I can for most of them. But whatever you do, don’t send me a cut and paste job ~ those are worse than winks!
Kristyn says
@ Steve #20
You forgot playful sense of humor!
And oh my!!
mic says
Very interesting topic, gets right down to the core issue. If a profile is written well, how much can it compensate for less-than-desired physical attractiveness, and how much is it merely an excuse for someone to write based mostly on physical attraction? Why hasn’t anyone tested how carefully a profile is read, if it’s read at all, after the picture is seen?
LadyPac says
I keep receiving emails from men who apparently have nothing interesting to say either in their messages or on their profiles.
I never write them back.
Mass messages to attractive women are extremely easy to spot and will never pique the interest of anyone over an IQ and/or EQ over 92.
Any guy who just looks at pics and then tries to get in touch with women whom he finds attractive regardless of what they have (or don’t have) to say on their profiles automatically disqualify themselves in my world.
JuJu says
Why hasn’t anyone tested how carefully a profile is read, if it’s read at all, after the picture is seen?
What do you mean, mic?
Steve says
Selena #30
And no shrinkage even out in the snow! Dazzling.
Don’t ruffle my feathers 🙂
Angela says
I get winks from guys that I feel do read my profile. After I respond to the wink for some the email is well though out and it is obvious that they have read my profile. I just do not jump to assumptions like so many here do. I enjoy online dating so far. I have met many men and have had fun. But I am not so vested as so many here seem to be to online dating. Its not the be all end all for me. I still go out and meet many men as well.
mic says
It seems self-evident. Does the average person bother to read a profile (on a different page) if the picture doesn’t generate physical attraction? That could be measured by clicks. How carefully the profile is read probably could be tested by asking questions a few minutes later (maybe if quotes had been shown before or not), though that might only work if a few profiles are viewed in a session. Probably whether actual profile text matters could be tested by creating dummy profiles of people well matched in attractiveness (and age, coloring, body type, etc.) with very different descriptions and comparing the response rates of each. People who are above-average in attractiveness likely are overconfident that personality descriptors matter much to suitors and possibly end up with those who are good at pretending that they’re not shallow.
mic says
“Don’t judge a book by its cover” leads to “Pretend not to judge a book by its cover,” when instead the advice should be “Present yourself accurately in a good way.” It’s a more level playing field that way, with supply in looks closer to meeting the demand and therefore encouraging people to look beyond the surface.
JB says
Evan is right and his answer is politically correct but in the real world
of online dating. It’s 98% photo contest 2% profile substance. I’ve
been dating a woman for 6 weeks that had 2 sentences,a head shot and a headline that said she liked 1 sport I did. After emailing her for snicks & giggles and busting on her for her sparse profile she responded and had a lot to say to my surprise…lol
Is she the woman of my dreams? No. Have we had a great time the last 6 weeks ?? You bet. Guys don’t have the options women do so you might as well email anyone who you find attractive. You’ve got nothing to lose except 2 minutes. My male recon profiles say nothing and can have pretty much any woman they want….lol especially if they had a personality 😉
moon says
This is a great topic for me as I live in an area of the country where the MEN write about hunting, fishing, their car or motorcycle and how they like to, “live life to the fullest.” I ask them what it is about photographs of them with their kill that they believe would attract a mate, and they become insanely defensive. It’s often I get e-mails from men with completely dull profiles and who insist I write them, “because you’re really attractive to me.” What if I’m not attracted to them?
I guess what I’m saying is: the shoe is now on the other foot for our writer. I think it happens far more to women than men. I usually send a polite, “no thanks,” unless I’m in a more open-minded mood to give it a chance. But, usually: what you see is what you get, or so far… So, yes…why are you writing that woman?
moon
JuJu says
LOL, thanks, moon, I needed a laugh! =D
This reminded me of how this one guy (who turned out to be a total creep in person) was asking me at the end of the date when he can see me again, and I said that I see no point in seeing him again, since I am not attracted to him. To which he replied, “Yes, you are!”
Turns out he thought I said “I am not attractIVE to you”, as if that makes any sense. =)
moon says
I often find I jive with the Juju. Thanks, Juju!
Yes, I do love it when they insist I get in touch with them because they think I’m cute. I mean, that’s great and all, but…
moon
mic says
The “latest kill” is supposed to show masculinity. Some women probably like that. But probably not the style (shorts and caps, for example) associated with fishing.
To be slightly philosophical, “don’t judge” seems to foster thoughtlessness, lack of personal responsibility, confusion, and dishonesty. That people can’t be bothered to put much thought into how their dating profiles are perceived might be just the tip of the iceberg.
starthrower68 says
Moon,
LOL, I’d like to even get as much as a picture with their latest kill and “live life to the fullest”; all I seem to be getting are profiles with no pictures, self-description, intro, or anything. Seriously? Are they that lazy? What is a person supposed to respond to? If they can’t even take the time to come up with a decent profile, that speaks volumes about the lack of effort they will put into any sort of relationship with me. I just pass them by.
moon says
I was just thinking about the sociological permissions given by the Internet. My Dad hunts, but I cannot imagine him, in his dating days, taking his pictures to the bar to show to prospective girlfriends. Also, because my sister cries when she sees dead animals, he still can’t share them with her. A few years ago he shot a six point elk, which is a pretty big deal. He showed my the pictures, because he knew I would understand the significance of this, and because I know his hunting buddies (one of whom is a lady in her 80’s,) but he doesn’t just whip them out, anywhere.
Then I got to laughing thinking a *hunter* or *fisherman* should be *smarter*! Hmmm…I want to catch a female…what kind of bait should I use? Lol…
Unless a woman is from the hunting and fishing culture, and maybe even if she is, I cannot believe the dead animals are a hit.
moon
JuJu says
That people can’t be bothered to put much thought into how their dating profiles are perceived might be just the tip of the iceberg.
Ah, mic, that is so profound!
Seriously, why do we even advertise ourselves on various dating sites? To attract a mate, no? Wouldn’t it stand to reason, then, that we should put our best foot forward in this endeavor?
starthrower68 says
Here’s another thing I really like: a guy keeps sending you the “I’m interested” wink/flirt, but then never sends an actual e-mail because he doesn’t want to pay for a subscription. And of course the website won’t let anyone put in or even hint at an e-mail address. So this clown just wants to keep winking. That’s all you’re gonna get back too, pal…..
starthrower68 says
Ok, here’s one for the books: I’m browing profiles on a site I’m using. Well, I make no secret about my faith, but I was also very mindful not to say anything that comes across as trying to force my beliefs on anyone else. I felt that I did a good job of expressing the importance of my faith without coming across as overbearing, but I did feel it was important to mention, as I am looking for a like-minded soul. But anyway, I look at one profile and the person says he’s agnostic. Ok, fine moving on. But he, however, felt the need to send two e-mails telling me how not interested he is in a born-again Christian. I didn’t initiate any contact whatsoever, and he sent an e-mail that said, “I’m not ever going to be interested in a born again Christian”. Wow, ya couldn’t have just let it go, Tarzan? Was that so I could feel like I got served? I just simply replied, “I didn’t ask”.
moon says
starthrower: AMEN! If a man is too strapped or hopeless to pay the subscription, what is he doing winking? Like I’m going to pay for his attraction?
moon
hunter says
Steve you get flooded with e-mails from women wanting only sex? You lucky dog, that is every man’s fantasy.
Buck25 says
Hunter,
That was my reaction when I read Steve’s first post, and Starthrower’s follow-up; I’m sitting here thinking, “Damn! Why didn’t I ever get any of those when I was online?” Must be a “young people thing”, I guess. Still, with all the comments about “dirty old men”, where are all the “dirty old women” at? There must be some, right? 🙂
Christine says
There are “dirty old women”…but as far as I know, they’re contacting younger men on these sites! Or so I’ve been told by my male friends (who range from their late 20s, to their 30s like me). Too bad Buck, I guess those ladies wasted their time and should have tried sending those to you instead. 🙂 But apparently you’re not online now and it’s water under the bridge!
Buck25 says
@Christine
Yeah, I hear you! Just as I suspected, like some of my fellow “dirty old men” who insist on date women half their age, the “dirty old ladies” are out there robbing the cradle again, lol! Pity they don’t realize that dirty old men need love too,(and some of us don’t even need a “little blue pill” to be capable of enjoying it)! I’d have definitely responded, given the opportunity! Ah well, as you say, water under the bridge, now that I’m not out there.:)
hunter says
@buck25,
..they are out there, study female behavior, look for a dating coach, good ones are far and few…but, they do exist…
Selena says
@Starthrower #51
That was amusing. What do you suppose would possess someone to send emails specifically saying they were NOT interested because of what the person put in their profile? What kind of a mind works like this?
I wonder if he does this with other aspects besides religion? Maybe there are women out there getting unsolicited emails stating “I’m never going to be interested in _________ ” you name it…height, hair color, occupation, hobby, on and on. Maybe it’s a tactic so they will write him back to convince him otherwise? Maybe he’s just a moron.
mic says
People don’t seem to put much thought into how they present themselves in the real world nor why they react to others the way they do, dating situations included. Why would you expect much of a difference online? Of course without audio, alcohol, pheromones, etc., online dating profiles tend to highlight flaws that might be less obvious in person. Realistically, the only way for the online situation to change much involves dating sites urging members to present themselves better. And, yes, good point about the dead animal itself being a turn-off.
starthrower68 says
Selena, that is a very good question. The second e-mail said “especially people who can’t read a profile.” Wow. Some people’s behavior just kinda leaves ya at a loss for words. I don’t know if he was itching for a fight or wanting to make a woman prove herself or what. I decided it wasn’t worth getting angry over.
JuJu says
starthrower,
I guess some people just take a visit to their profile a little too seriously. 😮
Steve says
@54
I have women friends, rude or not, prominently write in their profiles that they are not interested in dating conservative men, hunters, people who fish, etc. Yet, they get *serious* inquiries from men who are these things, who have nothing in common with them and who live *hours* away.
Selena says
@58
It would seem then, that either these men skip reading the profiles, or…they think the women will make an exception for them? Hope springs eternal.
Kristyn says
Your stories about hunters and religion reminded me of a avid hunter who contacted me a while back. I work with a lot of hunters and in an industry that is supported somewhat by hunters – so I have no issue. My religion is also very important to me so i mention it in my profile as well. Mr. hunter and I start to exchange emails and then in the next couple of emails, he tells me mulitple times that he is not going to ever be involved in my religion. So i quit writing thinking it must be a deal breaker for him. He continues to email me. He tells me he hunts so much that it has been an issue in quite a few of his last relationships but he isn’t going to change who he is for someone. Then i get an email “breaking” things off with me as he needs someone who can focus exclusive attention on him and he didn’t think a single mom will be able to do that.
I found it extremely interesting that his hunting should be a priority to him but he felt he should take precedent over someone else’s priorities. Funny thing – he sent me at least three more emails.
Karl R says
Kathleen said: (#5)
“I have been dating a man for seven months that did go for me as a ‘7’ at best in looks (to him) and a ’10’ in personality. But I am consistently reminded that I am not all that attractive to him (not as much in words as in actions or lack thereof).”
The big problem is that he told you this. Unless you went fishing for the information, there’s no reason to do so.
A couple years ago I was dating a woman who (objectively) was a 4 or 5 in physical attractiveness. Subjectively I saw her as a 7. In compatability she was a 10. If it hadn’t been for one dealbreaker issue (she wanted lots of kids, I didn’t want any), I probably would have pursued marriage with her … and I would have considered myself lucky to have her.
“So while picking people based on their personality and at least a mild level of attraction seems reasonable, it isn’t very good for the self-esteem of the person you caught.”
It can be … but it’s a matter of presentation. Here are some of the things that I told my ex-girlfriend while dating her:
“You are terribly cute.”
“You are so sexy.”
“I love watching you.”
All of these statements were completely honest. I wanted to let her know that I was attracted to her. If my statements made her feel like a “10”, that’s wonderful.
He sees you as a 6 or a 7 … not a problem. He makes you feel less than beautiful … big problem.
During the past week I started dating one of my dance partners. A couple times she has mentioned that I make her feel beautiful, and that I make her feel elegant on the dance floor. I know she finds me attractive, but from the tone of her voice, I got the idea that how I make her feel about herself is more important than how attractive I am.
It’s simple psychology. People like to feel good about themselves. They like people who make them feel good about themselves. Your boyfriend seems to be clueless on this concept.
“I also think it may well lead to straying when people think there is always something better around the corner.”
You’re confusing “more attractive” with “better”. I’m hoping to find someone as amazing as my ex-girlfriend. I don’t necessarily expect to find someone “better”.
starthrower68 says
Kristyn #60,
You dodged a major bullet with that one. Wow, that’s the kind of stuff that you just kind of shake your head at an move on. When I run into that sort of thing, I always try to remember the following: some people are like Slinkies; not really good for much of anything, but it’s still funny to watch them fall down stairs.
Selena says
#62
LOL! That’s a cheerful way of looking at the world.
mic says
Numbers game, maybe, either for having lots of casual sex or snagging an attractive woman. But for either goal it’s probably more effective to have a good presentation. The men posting hunting imagery might dimly realize they aren’t particularly good-looking or otherwise desirable and strive to be macho and interesting with those pictures. Lots of such profiles diminishes the effect, though.
What about writing to an otherwise “uninteresting” profile with a question or comment about the photo that’s flattering without being completely shallow? “There’s not much in your profile, but you look like an attractive, interesting person. Like I am 🙂 Please tell me more about yourself.” Whether or not you the strategy is any good, you should realize that judgments about personality are made in part from pictures.
JB says
@Moon #52 you’d be surprised at the lengths women go to when a “hot guy” only winks because “he can’t afford a subscription”…wink,wink…cough.cough…lol they give their email addresses and sometimes even phone #’s just at the chance to be with the “hottie” who can only afford to wink. LOL…I’m sorry I’m not paying for subscriptions for my recon profiles….lol That’s where I draw the line. The point I’ve proven here for men is…..if your photo is “hot enough” your profile can say basically nothing and just wink and they would have plenty of phone #’s and dates without being able to afford a subscription to respond properly. Like Evan would say “who would want to go out with a guy who can’t even afford a subscription?” The answer…..if he’s hot….plenty of women….LOL
Sayanta says
Kathleen-
I was very saddened to read your post- the fact that you consider yourself lucky to be dating a man whose comments damage your self-esteem is heartbreaking. Maybe you should be single for a while and work on really feeling good about yourself and what’s possible in a relationship so you don’t keep wasting your time on a guy who has the need to always ‘remind’ you you’re a “7.” Easier said than done, but the rewards would far outweigh the initial pain.
A-L says
RE: Starthrower’s #62
LOL
moon says
Hi JB,
I must not have noticed any of these men being all that hot, or I would get out my pocketbook and surely pay their way, throw myself at them and hopefully debase myself accordingly! LOL…
I’ve dated the hot guy in town. Really I never even noticed him though all my women friends were talking about him. Why he picked me to court I’ll never know. Actually, I do know: I wasn’t throwing myself at him…I actually did not notice him until we started dating. Annoyingly, I did find it like dating a celebrity every so often, even though we got called, “most beautiful couple,” it seemed it was all about him. Not that he gave a rat’s. Neither of us did… I like a physically attractive man but I am much more likely to notice if he picks up trash on the way to work, holds the door for the elderly and is nice to the waitstaff.
Anyway, the sites I am on you have to pay to play, and you cannot pass info other than winks without paying. I’m no meal ticket, and have yet to see any compelling photo or profile through these, “just winking,” fellers.
moon
Selena says
@JB #64
I think it’s funny the way you describe the attention your recon profiles get with nothing more than an attractive picture. But I’m curious, what do you do the information you gather from the recon? Is it just kind of a hobby, or what?
Diana says
To JB, believe it or not, a hot-looking guy’s wink isn’t enough for me to respond to an empty profile. I’m looking for substance. 😉
hunter says
Moon, some men don’t know that winking is a feminine trait…
hunter says
Diana, I have heard several female interpretations of substance.
Diana says
To Hunter #72, substance has numerous meanings, too. Talk about confusing! Substance to me is what you find on the inside. I am typically not one to latch on quickly to great looks, and above all, money ~ I’m independent. I have always looked more toward the makings of a person. When a friend asks me something like, “Who do I find good looking,” I really have to give it some thought. 🙂
JB says
@Selena #69 …..lol no pun intended. The main thing with recon profiles is that you learn so much more about what really goes on by being a few types of people and watching how both men & women react to just “viewing” someone’s profile,making someone a “favorite” or actually “winking” at someone (with a “hot recon”)who already told the real you they had “met someone and wanted to see what develops” and watch how that suddenly becomes irrelevant to them as they give the hottie their phone # after not even 1 email exchange.
How women will throw out their height ,weight,and monetary qualifications not to mention geographical ones when a hot guy shows interest. It’s all very interesting and enlightening as well informative. On the flipside by having an attractive woman recon profile shows me exactly what every goofball man does with their horrible profiles,with dead animal pics,shirts off by their car etc…… as well as the ridiculous winking bullshit that most of them do….lol Clueless & delusional most men online are…lol
Having recon profiles is not a hobby no more than being on this blog is. It’s just for personal knowledge. I do ok with MY own profile,probably better than alot of guys but then again I have alot of knowledge….and being that I’m only a “5” or a “6” I need every advantage… 😉
Good for you Diana for not being interested in a hot guys empty profile. I applaud you and wish more were like you. But he wouldn’t even have time to notice because he would be so busy I can assure you. He’d be exhausted & broke …..LOL
starthrower68 says
I had an IM conversation that didn’t like the fact my definition of fun was not a hook-up. When I told him that, he couldn’t get out of there fast enough, lol!!!! I belive what Evan says about guys pushing a woman for sex, and then when she does it, they reject her for being too easy. So I figure I might as well just get it over with immediately and be rejected for not doing it. Not that I’m trying to stir up that debate, I just think the guys reaction was funny. He’s a Slinky….
Diana says
JB, ha ha! Yes, I’m sure the super lookers are faaar too busy to notice my lack at attention. 🙂 Most people are average looking. Then again, it’s the ones who ignore your super looks that sometimes get your attention, too.
Honey says
Do women have “recon” profiles? I have heard numerous guys talk about this and never heard of a woman who had one. It seems a little strange to me…why go out of your way to obtain knowledge that is likely only to be a self-esteem killer?
Not to mention, no wonder the e-mail response rate is so low, if every guy out there has his “real” profile, his “recon/hot guy” profile, and his “female recon” profile!
Ruby says
JB #74
Wow, so women go for hot guys! They can be just as superficial as men? What a revelation!
Do you enjoy having your face rubbed in the fact that you’re not a “hot guy”? Why not just go after the ones who ARE interested and forget those who aren’t? What is the benefit for anyone to doing this? Surely you must have better things to do…
Yet another reason to not respond to winks. I’ve found that the only people who wink at me aren’t right for me anyway. The ones who might be actually have something meaningful to say and are capable of expressing it.
Ruby says
Kathleen #15
“knowing it would take a ton of plastic surgery to be attractive to this guy really sucks”
Wow, sounds like this guy is making you feel like you have to be some image of perfection. Is he that superficial, especially after a year of dating? Doesn’t sound great for your self-esteem.
JB says
No Ruby,it has nothing to do with getting anything “rubbed” in my face. I was a musician in the 80’s and I was a “hot guy” so I have some frame of reference of beeing treated as a sex object……lol poor baby..lol Darn I miss those days…and I do go after some of the ones who ARE interested and date them. The recon thing takes very little time or effort.
And yes Diana most people are average looking but I’ve found that average looking women don’t respond to average looking men because they don’t THINK they’re average….lol That’s why just like the men do women that are 3’s wink at men that are 9’s.
Diana says
JB, I wouldn’t know about that, since I’m definitely not a 3. 😉 Does that mean I really AM a 3? No. [lol] All kidding aside, I married someone who was considered average looking, a geek, as society would label him. He never quite understood or accepted that someone like myself, considered above-average would pick someone like him. In my eyes, I saw so much more than he and others did. He shared with me more than once that he never felt worthy of me. Honestly, I have little tolerance for all this scaling/rating, based on appearance.
Ruby says
JB #80
“The recon thing takes very little time or effort.”
Given how long it takes to post even a rudimentary profile and post a photo, I find that hard to believe. Even an hour seems too long to spend. I just don’t get what someone stands to gain by this sort of trickery. Sounds very cynical. If you expect the worst, isn’t that what you get?
Steve says
@JB #74
The “recon profile” thing sounds interesting. I could see the author of an online dating book doing that to get some entertaining and useful material, but what is the point for “civilian”.
If someone is not interested, they are……not interested. Best to let it roll off of you and move on.
Steve says
@Evan
Nice editing extension for the comments!
hunter says
Diana, I remember having a girlfriend saying, she didn’t feel worthy of me. I used to ask myself, what that meant….
Steve says
@moon post #43
Hunting and fishing is a turnoff to me too. If a woman mentions either in her profile I move on immediately.
hunter says
Tomboys do have a hard time finding a partner.
JB says
Obviously as usual we’ve gotten way off topic….lol I’m not going to argue the value of recon profiles. Everyone gains knowledge anyway they can. For you women, just once to see things from the guys perspective so you might understand what the men who email you go through on a daily basis. Put up an “average Joe” profile (minus the dead animal and shirtless shots of course…lol)and watch what DOES’NT happen…LOL You’d quit online dating real fast.
Anyway the question of “How do you write an email to someone with nothing interesting in HER profile? I simply wrote her a response that took about 30 seconds. She wrote back and told me she’d never done this before and that’s why her profile was so short but she liked what I said. She continued to write a few nice coherent intelligent emails back & forth. We met for a pizza and have been dating for 7 weeks and having fun. She’s not stupid,or unattractive yadda,yadda,yadda. She’s a bit cautious after being new but believe me 100’s of women that are a lot worse than her never responded to me. So like most men online we can only date the ones that show interest and want to date US. So that’s what we do !
hunter says
JB, my applause….
Steve says
@hunter post #87Skipping the profiles of women who hunt and fish has nothing to do with them possibly doing tomboys. It has everything to with their being enough needless killing and cruelty in this world without people doing it as a hobby. There are a number of other ways to “connect with nature”. I don’t need to spend my time with a woman who can’t see that. No disrespect to anyone.
mic says
Diana, hopefully no one who wants a serious relationship thinks that “scaling/rating, based on appearance” is a good thing, but it is the reality for most. It wasn’t for you, probably to your credit, but unfortunately it sounds like the two of you aren’t together anymore, correct?
JB, most women don’t think they are above average in looks, if that’s what you are suggesting. However, most people (in free-choice marriage cultures) strongly crave physical attraction and like to think they somehow deserve an attractive partner, maybe especially if they’ve drawn much interest from good-looking types before, try hard to maximize their looks, have attractive parents, are competitive…. Anyway, it’s true that the topic has strayed. What did you write to that women?
Kristyn says
JB said:
“So like most men online we can only date the ones that show interest and want to date US. So that’s what we do !”
How funny!! That is exactly what we do too!
Diana says
To Mic, after 30 years of being together, yes.
JB says
@ mic #91
I simply wrote “Hi there,well I must say you are a woman of few words….lol but you had me at Golf.<–(It was in her headline) I have no idea how to grab your attention among all the responses but I just wanted to let you know I'd love to play Golf sometime just to see that SMILE in person !! 🙂 If you're interested I'd love to hear from you."
That's it. I don't normally say anything at all about a woman's appearance for the most part but in her 1 head shot she had a smile as big as "Mini-Mouse"….lol The first thing that attracts me to a woman is her smile 🙂 I don't email every woman the same way for of obvious reasons. I pretty much personalize the few I email. Anyway golf and the smile got me and we've played golf at least 5 times in the last 6 weeks and the smile is gorgeous and although I don't normally meet someone after just seeing a headshot (because we all know what could happen….LOL) she had a nice normal figure. Sometimes you take a chance and win ! Sometimes you lose, that's online dating.
JB says
Sorry for the duplicate post something went wrong….lol
#95 is the finished one. Hopefully someone can fix it ?
hunter says
Kristyn, please, online dating and nudist camps are very similar in that, the women online/present at camps, are by far, in fewer numbers.
starthrower68 says
Hehe, there are those out that will constantly flirt with you, all excited about you, then when they finally talk to you, they are excited until you say something they obviously didn’t like because “sorry sugar, we’re not a match” and don’t even tell you why. Such is the travails of online dating. You can’t take it personally. There are just odd people out there.
Christian says
Not everyone is good at writing profiles.
JD says
If the profile is sparse, I will often say something about him being a man of mystery, then pick an interesting ice breaker question (google them!) like “What would be an ideal vacation by train?” or something else that most people would be interested in.
If I’m initially attracted to the photos but then find nothing in the profile inspires me to write a message (almost always with a question about something in their profile) then I just shrug and move on. Attractiveness is obviously not a key to compatibility and a good relationship.
Tim says
It means men are a lot more forgiving to women. They are not excessively picky. It means they find a much larger number of women attractive and acceptable for dating.
It also means that women don’t need to write awesome stuff in their profiles to get male interest. They can just be themselves…just be normal regular ordinary. Perhaps most of us are just that but alas one gender doesn’t understand that.
Lisa says
Part of the reason I hated online dating is because no one read my profile. I used to take all this time and write so much but then men would still email me who clearly failed to look at what I was looking for or was interested in. 90% of the emails were some version of wow you are so hot, why are you online dating, are you for real, or some comment on my looks, so you know what I stopped putting in the effort.
Evan Marc Katz says
Here, write a good profile. People will pay attention to it.