Do Tall Men Get Laid More?

Do Tall Men Get Laid More

Read enough relationship on the Internet and you’ll often hear a strain of men who complain that women are too focused on height. Their belief is that all women only go for the tallest, hottest, richest guys around – and that no one else even stands a chance.

And let’s face it: it IS harder being a shorter guy. Go to any online dating site, put that you’re 5’5″ and listen for the crickets. But, thankfully, online dating isn’t the only way to meet women, and thankfully, we have studies that can either confirm or deny our hypotheses.

Well, in an Elle/MSNBC Sex/Love Survey of over 60,000 people, the old trope that tall guys get  MUCH more action than the rest of us  has summarily been put to rest.

All things considered – it’s seen as advantageous to be tall, in practical terms, it seems like shorter than average guys end up doing just fine.

Per Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart:

The man who is 5’2”³ has a mean number of 8 sexual partners. The 5’4”³ guy has 10. And all the guys between 5’7”² and 6’2”³ have 11-12 partners.

Taken further, Walsh (and Mona Chalabi at 538) concludes that the mean  number of sex partners is consistent except for men under 5’4″.

So while – all things considered – it’s seen as advantageous to be tall, in practical terms, it seems like shorter than average guys end up doing just fine. Which makes sense, given that someone has to father other shorter than average guys in the future.

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  1. 1

    I suppose, then, that the question is: if there is no significant  difference in the number of partners, is there a difference in the quality of partners?   Are 6-footers getting more 9s and 10s in their dozen partners than the 5’8″ guys?   (And yes, I realize  such ratings are subjective.)

    1. 1.1

      That’s ONE study.It’s valid for the group studied. Whether those results are confirmable by other studies is a matter of conjecture. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise, and I’d love to see a study on the online environment, where being is a huge advantage.

    2. 1.2
      Karl S

      I’m 6’3 and though I’ve had a lot more partners than even the study average for my height, that’s not really a boast so much as a reflection of my poor choices in dating/non-traditional mindset/inability to settle down and so on over the years.

      I can’t say I was with particularly attractive women, but then I’m decidedly average looking myself (physically lean but not much of a face). I think truly outstanding lookers will always gravitate towards similar people in their “league” because they have the larger pool of suitors to choose from and can afford to be selective.

      There may have been a few women who were more interested in me because I was tall, but I mostly had partners because I took deliberate effort to meet people from the internet and what have you. I see plenty of attractive looking women with guys around their own height more often than not. I’d say athleticism trumps height overall.

      1. 1.2.1

        For me it definitely does. I do like tall guys, and all things being equal between two identical guys but height I’d probably go for the taller one. But what I really like is athleticism. I’d go for  a fit guy who runs or climbs mountains and who’s 5’8″ over a 6’2″ guy who doesn’t exercise any day 🙂

    3. 1.3

      Joe – Is settling for a girl who is a “7” or “8” really so bad ?   Especially if the guy in question is a 7 or 8 himself ?

      1. 1.3.1

        Isn’t that word like waving a red flag at a bull around here? :-p

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Ok Joe – In order to avoid the “S” word, I’ll rephrase the question “Is ‘getting laid’ by a girl who is a “7” or “8” really so bad ?   What if the guy in question is a 7 or 8 himself ?

        2. Tom10

          “Is ‘getting laid’ by a girl who is a “7” or “8” really so bad ?   What if the guy in question is a 7 or 8 himself ?

          I’d be delighted to get laid by a girl who is a “7” or “8”! Regardless of my own number. However, would I marry a “7” or “8”? Hmm, not sure. Not until I’ve lost all reasonable possibility of ever getting my 9 or 10 anyway.

          And round and round we go…


        3. Evan Marc Katz

          I’ve given you the formula, Tom. 7 chemistry and 10 compatibility. There is no evidence that 10 chemistry and compatibility exists anywhere, contrary to occasional protests from wishful thinkers.

        4. Tom10

          But, Evan, if I just hold on a bit longer, try a bit harder, wait until I’m that bit more successful then maybe, just maybe, I’ll finally land my perfect 10?
          Just kiddin’, yeah I know all too well about being a chemistry junky and seeking the “perfect mate”. Successfully and finally dealing with the desire is easier said than done though, especially for a natural maximizer.
          But that’s where appreciating and implementing your insight, experience and formula comes in.  

        5. Karmic Equation


          Beauty fades with time.

          Good people with great personalities remain good people with great personalities over time (barring those beset with age-related infirmities such as Alzheimer’s).

          In a marriage, let’s say you have sex an hour every day (so 7 hours a week, this is high, except for newlyweds, haha). But you spend, say, at least 5 waking hours per weekday, plus 6-24 waking hours over weekends with that person NOT having sex, so 48-66  waking/non-working hours per week NOT having sex. This equates to  >85%  of the time you have to spend with your wife NOT having sex. Which means her personality is on display the majority of the time you spend with her, not her awesome nakedness.

          If you think that most 9/10s are going to  please you OUT of bed, you need to think again. Not happening.

          Why not? Because female 9/10s are just as narcissistic as their male counterparts AND you add to that her being MORE prone to being insecure AND having not spent ANY time developing her personality (why should she? Her beauty could get her anything she wanted)–you’re not going to enjoy the relationship you have with her out of bed.

          Look for both beauty and personality, no one’s saying you can’t have both. But when you go wife hunting, look for a  serene, secure woman who can make you laugh, accepts you, and trusts you, who’s also “pretty enough” for you. That 7 in looks, and 10 in personality that Evan recommends.

          You really can’t go wrong with that formula. You could try for a 10 in looks and 7 in personality, I suppose. But that’s a unicorn. Most 10s are probably 5/6’s in personality at best.

          But for argument’s sake, let’s say you find that 10/7 combo. She’s eventually going to become a 7  or less with age, and her 7 personality will deteriorate along with it, because a lot of a 10’s identity will have been vested in her looks. However, a 10 personality now, will remain a 10 as she ages.

        6. not again

          @Karmic Equation

          “Because female 9/10s are just as narcissistic as their male counterparts AND you add to that her being MORE prone to being insecure AND having not spent ANY time developing her personality (why should she? Her beauty could get her anything she wanted).”

          Well that’s kinda judgmental! 🙂

          “But when you go wife hunting, look for a  serene, secure woman who can make you laugh, accepts you, and trusts you, who’s also “pretty enough” for you.”

          Wasn’t there a song way back when, something about being happy   and marrying  an ugly woman? Can’t remember  exactly how it went.

        7. Karmic Equation

          I don’t think anyone should marry anyone they think are “ugly”. That is just a relationship waiting to fail.

          We all have to believe that the person we’ve chosen is beautiful in some way. For men, they usually look for outward beauty and forego the inner  beauty. Those men get taken to the cleaners in divorces, so I can’t say I feel sorry for them.

          Women who choose men based on “chemistry” instead of character usually pay for that poor choice with their self-esteem.

          Men tend to have to pay financially after a marriage fails. While women often don’t pay monetary price for failed marriages, they do pay. Single mothers have lower SMV than their childless  counterparts, so she has a harder time finding attractive  guys who want to date her, never mind have a relationship with her. Most women gain pregnancy weight that she can’t lose, lowering her SMV some more. Because of he lowered SMV, her self-esteem takes a hit. Because she often has primary custody, it’s much more difficult for her to date, and therefore, to enter into new relationships. I guess you can say women pay a future-relationship price after  a failed marriage.

          No one gets off scott-free when they choose the wrong people or got married for the wrong reason.

        8. KK


          Here’s the thing. Men that are in their 30’s or 40’s and divorced are more likely to pair up with women who are in their 30’s and 40’s and divorced. By that age, most people have been married, so unless a man goes for someone significantly younger, he will more than likely be dating in the divorced pool. That said, I don’t think it is going to hurt a woman’s chances (3o’s/40’s) if she is divorced with kids. I’ve heard lots of guys say they prefer a divorcée over a never married. I have a friend who’s a very attractive 42 year old, never married. The first thing guys ask is what’s wrong with her. That’s the common attitude, right or wrong.

        9. Tom10

          Some wise words as usual Karmic.
          But we can intellectualize our relationships issues til the cows come home, it’s just that consciously over-riding our nature and desires in order to make the “sensible” decision is just, well, very difficult.
          Which is why we’re all here I guess!
          But point taken. The person who gets married on a chemistry buzz, without thinking any of these issues through, is just asking for trouble later in life…

        10. Karl R

          Tom10 said: (#

          “if I just hold on a bit longer, try a bit harder, wait until I’m that bit more successful then maybe, just maybe, I’ll finally land my perfect 10?”


          That reminds me of two men sitting in a bar:

          Man #1: “What’s bugging you?”

          Man #2: “After years and years of searching, I finally met the perfect woman.”

          Man #1: “That’s terrific!   So why are you upset?”

          Man #2: “She was looking for the perfect man.”


          Now for my cautionary tale:

          I have a close friend who wasn’t looking for the perfect man, but she had three criteria that she was absolutely unwilling to compromise on (extremely intelligent, very funny, significantly younger).


          Over the years, she has repeatedly landed long-term relationships with men who met those criteria.   Of course, by being inflexible in those three areas, she ended up settling in a number of other ways.


          There was the extremely jealous boyfriend who repeatedly accused her of cheating on him.   He also insensitive enough to ask her “Why do you have to be so weepy about it?” … after her mother died.


          There was the neurotic boyfriend who had PTSD.   There were at least a half-dozen triggers that would cause him to flip out.   He also allowed himself to be controlled by his mother (a narcissist with borderline personality disorder).


          There was the man who was perfectly gentlemanly to her … but he treated “lessers” like complete dirt.   Eventually it became clear that it was a matter of time before he started treating her the exact same way.


          There was the amateur musician who had completely incompatible values and goals.


          And then there were the exotic men who were happy to have passionate love affairs with her, but would not ever consider marrying outside their culture/ethnicity.


          When I met her, she was pursuing a HJNTIY widower.   She also strongly suspected this man had chronically cheated on his late wife.


          35 years after her divorce, she finally remarried.   She still has not compromised on her three criteria.   Her husband is nowhere near as attractive, nice, thoughtful or socially adept as she is.   However, he’s a complete gem compared to all of her exes.


          And that’s how my wife ended up married to me.


          In all seriousness, she could have ended up with a much nicer guy (and found someone much sooner) if she’d been willing to compromise those particular criteria.

        11. Tom10

          I like the way you wrote your cautionary tale Karl.
          But your conclusion could be interpreted in two ways:
          1) Save yourself some time, and living, and deal with your non-negotiables now before unnecessarily putting yourself through the mill, and still ending up in the same place 35 years from now.
          2) She finally found you, in which case, it was all worth it. 😉

        12. Christine

          Karl R, that joke about the “perfect woman” really does have an element of truth to it!   The other day I watched “Rear Window” with my boyfriend.   He actually said he wouldn’t want such a “fancy” woman as Grace Kelly, because she’d need an equally “fancy” man to keep her happy–and knows he isn’t one!   He found it silly that she dressed up in a $1000 dress and pearls, just for a quiet evening at home with her boyfriend (Jimmy Stewart).   He asked, just how fancy does takeout need to be, LOL!   He really does prefer non-fancy me in my PJs to the beauty icon Grace Kelly in her couture gowns (well, because he feels more relaxed around me–while he’d be intimidated by a woman who needs to get that dressed up at all times).   I don’t delude myself that, objectively speaking, I’m anywhere near Grace Kelly in the beauty and style department.   Yet a “7” like me is actually a better fit for him than a super-posh “10” like Grace Kelly would be (there must be a reason Grace Kelly married a prince in real life–maybe it really does take a fancy man to keep a fancy woman!)   I think that’s what real love is about, more than nabbing a “10”, just finding someone you have that comfort level with.

      2. 1.3.2
        Not again

        @karmic equation – I guess I don’t do well conveying humor in my comments.

        You are very insightful and make a lot of great, thought provoking points. But , and I’m not trying to engage in a side debate here on the multitude of reasons marriages end, let’s just say it’s often a little more complicated. But your point is well taken.

    4. 1.4

      I’m 6.5 and so far I have had a 3…a 5 and a very respectful 7

  2. 2

    I don’t mean to sound negative, but I really hate the trend of assigning a number to women. It’s very distasteful, and it seems the men who do it usually have no room to throw stones.

    1. 2.1

      Agreed Emily. If I ever heard a man in real life speaking about women as a number, I would be completely turned off. Very juvenile.

      1. 2.1.1

        It’s not necessarily a maturity thing, either. I work with a guy who rates women, and he’s in his mid-60s. And, should I add: He looks like Mr. Magoo?

        1. Adrian

          Emily, I never understood this. Men and women who… well let’s be honest, are not very attractive, but think they should have the town hunk or the beauty queen.


          Personally I have no problem with anyone desiring the most attractive man or woman they can think of, I hope they find that someone. But what I always hated was when people who are not attractive themselves, publicly belittles another’s looks. Why? What if I or others did that to you? For example the fat guy who says overweight women are disgusting and undesirable, and they should realize no one wants a fat woman or the old guy on dating sites messaging younger women, he says women his age are too old, and these women should realize no one will want to date someone that old!


          Would my publicly pointing out their hypocrisy make me as mean as them, by call attention to their imperfections, or am I strengthening their cruelty by remaining silent?

        2. Emily


          I once listened to a male friend say very nitpicky things about women’s appearances and I said, “The next time you appear on the cover of GQ, you can say whatever you want.” That shut him up.

        3. Karmic Equation


          Would my publicly pointing out their hypocrisy make me as mean as them, by call attention to their imperfections, or am I strengthening their cruelty by remaining silent?

          People rarely notice their own hypocrisy, because if they did, they’d stop, because no one wants to be considered a hypocrite.

          So your pointing out someone’s hypocrisy is pointless. You’re not being mean if you point it out. However, the hypocrite will either deny it or attack you, so why bother? And you’re not strengthening their cruelty, because, they’re not going to change.

          Everyone is hypocritical about something. I guess you could say hypocrisy is the one universal flaw that every human being has, bar none. So our job is to find a partner whose hypocrisy makes us shake our heads ruefully rather than want to strangle them…and who will do the same with our hypocrisy.

        4. Adrian

          Aaahh! Karmic Equation, now you tell me! After I have already painted myself as a target for Buck and Obsidian!

      2. 2.1.2

        It’s only for bragging rights with our close friends and hoist it’s not often used in a disrespectful manner so sorry… It is a little childish tho

    2. 2.2

      I agree that it’s distasteful, given how subjective attraction is, and it’s certainly no fun to be the one given a low number, and there are many facets to a person besides now they look, but don’t many women also give men a numbered rating when out in groups, looking at attractive men in the vicinity?

      i.e. “Look at the muscles on that guy, and the suit he’s wearing, and that cheeky smile. Solid 10, I would let him do whatever he wants with me.”

      Or “he’s okay, maybe a 6, would kiss him if drunk enough.”

      This NEVER happens?

      1. 2.2.1

        No. At least not for me and my friends.

        1. Buck25


          Karmic Equation pointed out in another thread that women do rate men, but it’s pretty much binary: “Doable” or “Not Doable”. From my own point of view, I’m not sure I see much practical difference; slightly different rating system, basically same end result. Dating is a win-lose proposition so it’s not like there are degrees of failing or succeeding. One either attracts those one wants to attract, or doesn’t, and gets a date, or doesn’t. Doesn’t matter how narrow the margin,   winning (or losing) still feels exactly the same.   So, I’m not sure why you think it matters.


        2. Emily


          I think there are levels and degrees in terms of how you personally rate someone’s appeal. For example, I was at work yesterday talking to a male co-worker when one of the managers walked by. “You’d hit that, wouldn’t you?” he asked. I said, “Yes, if it showed up at my door and did all the work.” Meaning I found it appealing enough to consider but not enough to make any effort. However, if I find a man very appealing, I will get up off my butt, cross the room, introduce myself and try to make conversation. A minor level of appeal does not compel me into action.

        3. Joe

          But Emily, even then you are rating the man.   A man who is a 10 would need to do no work for you.   The man your co-worker pointed out is clearly not a 10.   So clearly there’s a scale as to how much work you would need to do in order to “hit it.”   I don’t know how  granular your “hit it” scale is, but the 1-10 scale is essentially a shorthand for describing how attractive a woman is.   Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, not all men will rate a  woman exactly the same, but I’m sure you know this.   It’s more of a statistical average rating.   A man rating a woman is essentially doing the same thing you are.   A woman  who he rates poorly he would still sleep with, if he didn’t  have to do any work.   A woman who he rates highly he’d be willing to do a lot of work to sleep with.

        4. Emily


          The reason I wouldn’t do any work to land the man I mentioned has to do with his personality. He’s rather arrogant and kind of a bullshiter, two qualities I abhor. He is reasonably attractive, but I don’t like him enough as a person to exert any effort.

        5. Karmic Equation

          Not quite, Buck 🙂

          MEN grade women on the “do-able / not do-able” scale.

          WOMEN  grade men on the “hot / not-hot” scale.

          In other words, women’s grading of men reflects the OKC study that women find 20% of the men “above average” (aka hot/attractive), whereas men find as many women doable as not doable 🙂   — more of a bell-curve, with “Hell yes!” on the high side and “Hell NO!” on the low end. LOL

          IMHO, if men rated women on “relationship-worthy / not relationship-worthy” scale as opposed to “doable/not doable”, then the same 20/80 binary scale would be apparent.

          Men would readily offer relationships to (and wait for sex with) 20% of women; the same way women would readily offer sex to (and hope for relationships) with 20% of the men.

          The rest of the 80% of both genders have to work harder to get the sex/relationships we want.

          God has a sense of humor, but he is often very fair if you find the right equivalents in the “war of the sexes” 😉

      2. 2.2.2


        As others have pointed out, it’s distasteful. I don’t rate men as doable or not doable either. Attractive or unattractive; yes. That’s different than an arbitrary number. Men tend to get upset that SOME women have “wish lists” for a future mate but SOME men rate women on a scale like a piece of meat. How is that any better? Attractive (to me) or not is all that matters and not at all the same as a subjective number system. For women, it’s pretty much a yes or a no on the attraction factor.

      3. 2.2.3
        Not again

        @grenoble: No

      4. 2.2.4
        Karmic Equation


        “Look at the muscles on that guy, and the suit he’s wearing, and that cheeky smile. Solid 10, I would let him do whatever he wants with me.”

        Only women in porn movies and SITC talk like that. LOL

        Most women will go, “He’s hot!” or “He’s cute!” or “I LIKKE hiimmm!”

        But we don’t go into graphic details about bedding him.

        We might go “I wonder what our children would look like.” That’s about as close to talking about sex with a stranger as we’ll get.

        And the men who are NOT hot/cute/sexy? We don’t notice them, unless they’re extraordinarily sorry looking or something. So a man being noticed by a woman can only be good or bad. If you’re average looking and not noticed by women, it’s a good thing.

        1. Grenoble

          “If you’re average looking and not noticed by women, it’s a good thing.”

          Tell that to the guy who doesn’t get noticed. Haha.

          But, fair enough.

          My questions above were more out of curiosity than to make some sort of statement about women.

          I admittedly don’t hear women talk about men much, but most of the times I have, it’s largely been ridicule at a guy’s flirtation attempts or bemoaning that they only get attention from guys they don’t want.

          Just my experience, may not be typical.

          But I agree, women and men both have rating systems, but they work a little differently and are expressed in different ways.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Let me tell you a funny story.

          An ex and I used to love watching America Idol, particularly the episodes where they showed the best and the worst auditions.

          I was feeling a little punchy one day, so said lamentingly, “I’d never make it on that show. I’m just too average a singer. But YOU’d make it on the show, you know.”

          He gives me a squinty-eyed look. “‘Cuz you think I’d make it into the worst auditions episodes, don’t you?”

          I just gave him an angelic smile.

          So NOT being noticed IS a good thing if you’re an average looking man. That means your approach will be what defines you to the women whom you dare approach. They haven’t already made up their minds about you yet.

          As for the women who “complain” that  only men they’re not interested hitting on them? That’s just a backhanded compliment to themselves. Just another form of competition amongst women which most would deny.

    3. 2.3

      I agree.   I think it’s similar to when women classify men as being “marriage material” or not, which is largely based on the man’s ability to subsidize the woman assigning the classification.   As Maya says below, it’s quite dehumanizing.

      1. 2.3.1


        I’m glad you brought up the idea that it is dehumanizing to men to be rated by women in terms of their ability to “subsidize” them. I had really never thought of that. Surely, then, men should be able to understand a woman feeling dehumanized if her attractiveness is rated on a scale. Everyone is the sum total of all their qualities.

        1. Chance

          Yes, Emily… That is what I was saying in my original post.   My post was in response to your post.   You were talking about men rating women based on physical attributes, and I was pointing out that it is similar to women classifying men as marriage material based on their ability to subsidize women.

        2. Maya

          I mean, do women actually do that? Is that a real thing? I feel like a LOT is made about how women are just all evil gold-diggers who all want rich men, but in my experience I’ve never chosen my dates or boyfriends that way and I know absolutely no one else who does either.

          I don’t think it’s actually a thing so much as a TV trope from the 50s or something and an excuse guys tell themselves to make themselves feel better when they get rejected.

          When I say someone is “marriage material” it means a lot of things, but “is really rich” isn’t one of them. (“subsidize me?” I don’t know, man, I have a job and don’t plan to quit when I’m married). Yeah, when I evaluate possible boyfriend material I do look for things like “is steadily employed doing something they love” and “has his finances together” but that’s more because I want to date a happy, mature person who has his life together enough to hold down a job and support himself. But I’m not looking for someone to “subsidize me.”

        3. Chance

          Maya, yes, I believe it’s a thing.   However, I can only speak from my experience.   I don’t watch 50’s TV and I’m pretty confident I’ve never been rejected due to my lack of financial success.   I do hear my friends/acquaintances/co-workers/relatives talk about men being “marriage material”, and the primary determinant seems to be the man’s ability to provide most of the time.   I’ve been called marriage material on a number of occasions, and the primary reasoning for them deeming me as such – outside of obvious reasons like not doing drugs, not being abusive, not being duplicitous, etc. – pretty much comes down to my ability to provide.


          It was also a common theme that I noticed when I was dating online:   a lot of women want men to be the primary providers.   I don’t think most women are “gold digging” for rich men.   I don’t think that most of them are looking to be financially saved (although I believe most would certainly like it).   I do, however, believe that most women expect to be financially supplemented (i.e., subsidized).   As a modern man who believed in gender equality, this always annoyed me.   I thought women believed in gender equality?


          If you want to observe – in living color – that this is actually a “thing”, then visit the more well-heeled parts of town.   There is a strong correlation between the financial success of a man and the physical attractiveness of the woman in a couple.   This is because those traits traditionally represent the most attractive traits in the opposite sex.   Men and women objectify each other equally… they just do it in different ways.

        4. Maya

          Hm, interesting. Maybe I’m just not hanging out enough in the “well heeled” parts of town 🙂

          I could say that one  thing I’ve started doing as I’ve gotten older (I’m in my 30s now) is ask myself, “would this person add to my life, or subtract from it?” A person who adds to my life has a great life of their own that meshes well with mine. A person who would subtract from it might be someone who’s broke all the time (i.e. won’t be able to do certain fun things with me because of money issues, or is worrying about money all the time, or who I might have to lend money to, or something). It’s not the only way someone might subtract from my life, and of course if a guy was perfect for me in EVERY way except that he was broke, I probably would give it a chance anyway.

          That’s really not about the idea of finding someone to “subsidize” me or landing a rich guy (and actually, I have gone on dates with men who were a lot wealthier than me and I almost always found them totally insufferable). But I could see how it could sound materialistic if I explained it wrong.

        5. Chance

          Maya, what you are saying above sounds reasonable to me 🙂

        6. Ald

          Not sure when you wrote this, could have been a long time ego…. About your argument, I don’t agree with the way you phrase it — you sound too bias. The thing about guys putting numbers is correct though. I don’t even think it’s rude but I guess that is relative to the way it’s said. I believe intension is  ¾ of the total truth. If the person you speak of said this in un-respectful way you could be right, but generally I don’t think that’s the case. For example, I put numbers on girls too, in my case I simply do it out of simplicity, specialty when I don’t know the girl that well and the only thing I know about her is how she looks. From my point of view girls put “more “numbers than guys- well not exactly numbers but letters. I know a few of my sister’s girlfriends that used to rate guys with letters. If the guy had money and was good looking (tall) he got and A. If you are talking about who is more selective here — guys or girls – who overanalyses who she/he dates by transforming that person into quantifiable values — I think girls win. By nature females of all species (basically) are more selective than males. If something is rude here is that selectiveness but everyone does that. I could even argue that girls do this more guys.   I believe you have to be simply about what you want in your partner. After choosing that simply let yourself go and get to know that person in a holistic type of way and see if you get along. relationships are too complex

        7. Aldo

          Emily: ” Surely, then, men should be able to understand a woman feeling dehumanized if her attractiveness is rated on a scale. Everyone is the sum total of all their qualities. ” – you are rephrasing this in a very bias way.

          Not sure when you wrote this, could have been a long time ego…. About your argument, I don’t agree with the way you phrase it — you sound too bias. The thing about guys putting numbers is correct though. I don’t even think it’s rude but I guess that is relative to the way it’s said. I believe intention is  ¾ of the total truth. If the person you speak of said this in un-respectful way you could be right, but generally I don’t think that’s the case. For example, I put numbers on girls too, in my case I simply do it out of simplicity, specialty when I don’t know the girl that well and the only thing I know about her is how she looks. From my point of view girls put “more “numbers than guys- well not exactly numbers but letters. I know a few of my sister’s girlfriends that used to rate guys with letters. If the guy had money and was good looking (tall etc – the higher the grade) he got and A. If you are talking about who is more selective here — guys or girls – who overanalyses who she/he dates by transforming that person into quantifiable values — I think girls win. By nature females of all species (basically) are more selective than males. If something is rude here is that selectiveness but everyone does that. I could even argue that girls do this more guys.   I believe you have to be simply about what you want in your partner. After choosing that simply let yourself go and get to know that person in a holistic type of way and see if you get along. relationships are too complex

        8. Emily


          Karmic Equation put it rather succinctly: MEN grade women on the “do-able / not do-able” scale. WOMEN  grade men on the “hot / not-hot” scale.

          However, it’s really the same thing. I personally don’t use scales or numbers or grades, as your sister and her friends did. Whether or not he had money or was tall were never factors.

          If someone asked me out, I asked myself one question: Am I attracted to him? The answer was either yes or no.




        9. Lola

          Wasn’t there a study that showed that virtually no one rates themselves below a 7. So basically, ugly people to moderately attractive honest people rate themselves a 7. That must mean there’s a hell of a lot of range in the 7 class.

          I agree that it’s stupid to hear a rating on a one to ten scale.

          I’m tall and lots of guys would say I was a 3 for that reason alone. On the other hand, most people don’t think I’m unattractive and I get set up with friends a lot. They’re not selling me by saying, she’s a 3, but you might think she’s a 10 cuz some do. It’s just crazy to think that a number means anything, but so many people make sure they tell you they’re a 9 (never with pictures to back it up)  before they spout their misogynist/misandrist rhetoric.


      2. 2.3.2

        I started dating my ex husband when he was an unemployed carpenter.   I remember when one of my best friends first met him, she took me aside and said “Ooooh, I like him — very marryable”.   I doubt she was thinking about how this unemployed carpenter would “subsidize” me.   Just thought he was very cute (he was) and at the time acted very devoted to me, and had a very happy countenance about him.

        Personally, I don’t use the phrase “marriage material”, because it just sounds to me like viewing a man as a lump of clay to be molded according to the wishes of the woman who’s looking to get married.   But I like the term “marryable”, and to me it has nothing to do with money or status, but weather or not I thought someone would make a good partner for me or not.   Is he kind ? Is he honest ?   Am I attracted to him ?   Is he also looking for marriage ?   Would he be a good father ?

        When I married my ex, the original plan was for ME to subsidize him by putting him through school.   (He had a 2 year degree already, he wanted to go back and get his bachelor’s)   He ended up getting a very good job offer without going back to school, so we switched course.   TOGETHER, we pooled our resources and eventually built a solid middle class life for ourselves, TOGETHER.

        At his request, I did put in a few years as a stay at home mom, but even then, for a small part of that time, I worked part time evenings so we didn’t have to pay for day care, and part of that time, I watched other children in my home and was able to provide a small income in addition to his (without putting our son in day care)     I never dreamed I would EVER live a lifestyle where my primary job was a stay at home mom, but once our precious son came into our lives, TOGETHER we decided that that is what we wanted.

        So when I married my “very marryable ” ex, it was leap of faith that TOGETHER we would somehow pool our resources and provide for our family.   For me, it was an act of love and faith, for him, it was a means to an end — fatherhood.

        When he broke my heart 23 years later, he admitted that he only married me for “my looks”   (I’m   fairly cute, but no super model, but I bore a strong resemblance to his mother and I now believe that is the reason why he was so ga-ga over “my looks”) and that he wanted to have a kid, or kids and he thought I would be a good mother.

        So even though I was no gold digger, I married for love,   I wound up with a womb digger who tossed me aside when our son went away to college, because my services as a broodmare/child care provider were no longer needed.

        Are you sure that every woman you hear utter the phrase “marriage material”   (or husband material or marryable or Mr Right) is talking soley about the ability to “subsidize” ?   Or is that a case of confirmation bias ? (You seem to live in a world where all the women you encounter are financially irresponsible and leech off of men)

        Oh, and by the way, we settled the financial aspect of our divorce in a way that was fair and equitable to BOTH of, I didn’t “financially rape” my husband and we both continue to live a solid middle class life, separately.

        So I guess that’s a big surprise to all the MGTOWs who think women only marry a man to eventually strip him of all his wealth.


        1. Chance

          SE, not sure I understand what your point is supposed to be.   Your experience has been different.   I got it.   Not sure why it bothers you so much when I describe my experiences.   Please learn to respond to what people actually say.

        2. Adrian

          SparklingEmerald, I have been wanting to ask you something since you resurfaced with a happy relationship.

          Do you still believe that men don’t want a woman who is better than them: career-wise, makes more money, looks better, etc?

          I ask because I remember you strongly felt that (because your ex-husband in my opinion) men did not like to be with women who excelled them in some area; do you still feel this way? Now that you are with a good man who loves, respects, and treats you right, do you still believe all men are that way or just the men like your ex?

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Adrian – Thank you for your question “Do you still believe that men don’t want a woman who is better than them: career-wise, makes more money, looks better, etc?

          Well, I actually think most men don’t mind a woman who LOOKS BETTER, but when it comes to money and career, yes I DO think many men have a problem with that.   Of course it doesn’t matter what “many ” men think, ‘cuz it only takes ONE.

          I think many men feel like a woman who outshines them in career or finances makes them less of a man, whereas a woman who is better looking than him makes him feel like MORE of a man.

          There was an article on this blog about how men’s implicit self esteem went down if they were told that their woman scored in the top 10% on some test.   A male commenter commented that men didn’t want “Ersatz men”.

          That article confirmed for me what I experienced with my ex.   I think his self esteem on the implicit level was going down and he wasn’t even aware.   Even tho’ he was MORE successful in his career than I was at mine, he wasn’t as successful in his career as he wanted to be.   He got one promotion in his career, after that, apply as he might, he stagnated (tho’ he was very qualified).   I on the other hand, only viewed my career as supplemental, but I got a few unsolicited promotions. It also didn’t help that my dad was VERY financially successful and he likes to boast about it (something that has always embarassed me)   So our family holiday dinners were spend listening to my parents basically rub our noses in their riches.   Many years into our marriage my hubby told me that the first time he met my parents, he thought that due to my parents life style that I just might be out of his league.   (His parents were blue collar workers, who due to massive lay offs in his home town, suffered financially and never fully recovered)   My hubby also thought I was smarter than him (something I never really thought about) and while we were divorcing he let me know how much he resented THAT fact.   He is also somewhat of an introvert and I’m more outgoing, and he greatly resented that I did better and felt more at ease in social situations.       I NEVER thought my ex was beneath me, but he admitted that he initially felt that I was “out of league” (even before he met my family)

          I don’t believe my ex set out to be a jerk who expected me to downplay any of my strengths just to prop him up.   I just think on a deep sub conscience level his self esteem deteriorated over the years from all angles, his job, my minor job success, my Dad’s constant boasting about his wealth.

          Maybe because of my upbringing, is one reason why I never made finding a “rich” husband a priority.   My parents were materially very well of, but their emotional lives were extremely impoverished.

          I also remember in my early childhood, women were counseled to “play dumb” or at least downplay their intelligence to snag a man.   Also told to never beat a suitor at any type of game.   I remember my first serious boyfriend having a hissy fit when I was beating him at miniature golf.

          Also look the angry comments from male commenters over more women entering college and having careers (but they don’t want gold diggers)   I remember when women’s lib first hit in the 70’s my dad said there was going to be a back lash to it.   Any look at the manosphere (and some of the comments on this blog), I think he’s right.

          As for me, none of that matters now,   I have a great guy, he’s retired, I still work so there’s nothing really comparable as far as career goes.   I think he’s a tad smarter than me, and on a socializing level we are equal.   We are well matched. 🙂

      3. 2.3.3

        Chance – I was replying to this particular comment “I think it’s similar to when women classify men as being “marriage material” or not, which is largely based on the man’s ability to subsidize the woman assigning the classification.” so yes I did reply to what you actually   said, by giving you alternate meanings to what makes a man “marriage material” to a woman. It’s not always about money.    You just don’t like that it didn’t jibe with your world view that women are only in relationships to be “subsidized”. Why are you so bothered that I shared my experience, which you describe as “different” ?

        I was also responding to your frequent “observations” of women, usually negative (ie; women are financially irresponsible, spend all their money on shoes and pricey vacations, etc. etc.)   Some of your “observations” are more like assumptions, like the negative back stories you assign to women when you see them out and about drinking lattes.

        1. Chance

          I never said I think that all women are financially irresponsible and leech off men, and I’ve never said a lot of the other things that you said that I’ve said.   You take an extreme interpretation of things that I note.   I can tell I’ve really struck a chord with you with comments I made on another blog entry about how I noticed that many women spend frivolously because you keep hounding me about it.   However, it’s best for you to stop obsessing.   If you’re not like those ladies, then you should take no offense.


          I know you like to provide examples from all your prior marriages when illustrating your points.   However, re-read your response to Adrian’s question.   Is the irony lost on you?


          This will be the last time I respond to you.   I wish you the best of luck on your latest go at things.

        2. Chance

          To clarify:   when I asked you if the irony is lost on you, I am referring to how you came to a conclusion about how a lot of men are a certain way based on your experiences.   This is very similar to what you get so mad at me for doing.

        3. Sparkling Emerald

          Chance. It was the STUDY that appeared on this very blog that said men,s self esteem went down if their women had minor success that made me realize the reason behind my husband’s growing anger.   Until then, I really didn’t believe men needed to outshine their women, even though that message was being preached to women when I was growing up.   That message is still being preached in a few places, but its not as prevalent.   However, even though the article ” pissed me off”, eventually it created some understanding in me as far as what my ex was going through with his career. The article did stress that it was implcit self esteem that went down.   So now I think this is something that is not deliberate on the part of men, maybe the instinct to be the provider and protector is what makes them feel down if their woman out earns them.


      4. 2.3.4
        Karmic Equation


        I think you would appreciate these quotes from an FB meme I posted to my wall the other day…

        Meme title: 12 things men do differently than women


        #7 – Success

        -A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.

        -A successful woman is one who can find such a man.


        I spit out  my coffee when I read it. Too  funny.

        1. Chance


    4. 2.4

      ahem…unlike measuring a man’s worth in feet and inches?

      But yes, tall men generally get laid easily and often – more so ime that these figures suggest. But they do die young so i guess it evens out.

  3. 3


    I have never once rated a man with a number. If out with friends, I may say whether or not I find a particular man appealing. Once, when out to dinner, I leaned over to my girlfriend and said, “Is it just me, or is our waiter really sexy?” She agreed with me, but she and I have very different taste. (Although I do think there are certain men who have that certain something that a majority of woman would find hot.)

  4. 4
    Karl S

    If any of you have read the okcupid studies about how men and women rate each other based on looks alone, men rated women across a fairly even bell curve. It makes sense for men to use a numbering system because even with personal taste accounted for, when rated across large group statistics there is a general standard of *average*, *below average* and *above average* that can be agreed upon and actually fits the population distribution.

    Women rated 80% of men as *below average* based on looks alone. The conclusion one might draw is that a man’s attractiveness to women is actually an ephemeral combination of looks, status, personality, height, voice and overall *vibe* as it were. A concrete numbering system would not be very useful in that sense because an average looking man can still be very attractive. That’s not to say that an average looking women can’t also be very attractive based on her personality, but men (in my experience) are pretty literal and concrete when they talk about women to each other and separate looks from personality rather distinctly rather than combining the two.

    You might apply all sorts of moral justifications for avoiding a number system and call it “distasteful*, but I personally suspect the way men and women think differently these things is why we do it. This is all way off topic from the post about men’s height, but I wanted to throw in my two cents about the whole numbering system.

    1. 4.1
      Karl S

      *Please edit above sentence to read “and separate looks from personality distinctly, rather than combining the two.”

    2. 4.2

      Karl S I believe you brought up a good point. When we men say a woman is beautiful, hot, sexy, etc; We are just talking about her looks. But when women refer to guys with such adjectives, they sometimes mean just his looks, and sometimes mean who he is as a whole.


      Long-term, both men and women want more than just looks, I think height is just one of the many ingredients women want in a man. So a tall but unattractive or tall but unsuccessful man is not attractive to women.


      The only thing I will say about the numbering issue is, that from what I have seen, men verbalize because we are more analytical, while women go more with how they feel. What I mean is, if a man had 3 women whom he had to pick to date he would give them numbers (3,5,8) and pick the highest as his first choice, the second highest would be his second choice, and the lowest number would be his last choice.


      A women in the exact same scenario with three guys all trying to court her, would say yes to the best looking guy, the second guy would be her second choice, while possibly holding on the the third guy as a backup. She is doing the SAME thing! She just did not assign numbers to the men, but she has her order. Even if all three guys were cute in her opinion, she would still make the guy who was a little better looking, or made her laugh more, or was more successful, whatever. The point is, she would have a order for all the guys, who she would choose first and who she would choose last, it doesn’t matter if she does not assign the men numbers, the process is the same.

      1. 4.2.1


        Yes, a woman would rank men if she had 3 dates to choose from.

        Here’s my question to men: Would a man be happy if he was rejected by his first choice but would eventually wind up, in the long-term, with his second or third choice? Let’s say that he went on a date with each woman and that he finds choices 2 and 3 attractive and likes their personalities. However, he found choice 1 most appealing in terms of appearance, level of attraction and compatibility? Is he just happy to wind up with someone? (And choices 2 and 3 are by no means bad choices.)

        1. Maya

          This is an interesting question. I guess my feeling from the woman’s side is: if I was dating someone nonexclusively (but who I really liked), and eventually we decided to be exclusive and serious, and then I found out that he  had a “first choice” that rejected him before he decided to get serious with me, and I was a second or third choice…I dunno. I think it would really sour the relationship for me. Like I said below, nobody wants to be someone’s second or third choice.

          So maybe if I were dating several guys, but my “first choice” rejected me when I wanted to get serious…maybe I’d owe it to the second and third choices to dump them and go find another first choice. They’d probably thank me in the long run. What’s the guy’s perspective on that?

        2. Adrian

          Emily and Maya, the answer is, “it depends”.


          Scenario #1: If he was attracted to all 3 women, then yes he would be just as happy. Maybe she was only his second choice because he met the other girl first or maybe she was not as quick to agree to a date as the other girl, so she became choice #2, but he still thought she was cute. He would be happy with her.


          Scenario #2: If for some reason he wasn’t really attracted to choice #2, then though it is possible, most likely (in my opinion) he wouldn’t be happy with her. A lot of guys would stay for the sex, the attention, or just so he isn’t alone on the weekends. With time maybe he could eventually fall in love with her. But I have to say, from what I have seen, most decent men would not do this, they would just go on the date, and if there was no attraction he would end it.


          But remember women do this also. How many of you have gone out or “given a chance to” a guy whom you really were not attracted to, but for whatever reason you still said yes to a date.

          I also agree with Maya, I would not want to know I was someone’s backup choice if I really liked them. Actually, even if I didn’t really like them, it would still sting my ego.

        3. Emily


          I have said yes to a first date with a man I wasn’t attracted to. I thought I would take a different approach and not expect instant attraction and see if anything developed. I agreed to a second date with him, but he blew me off at the last minute, so I don’t know what would have happened. I usually don’t like to say yes to a date unless I have some level of attraction for the man. I don’t see the point.

          Are there not levels and degrees of attraction? You would be attracted to all three choices but the most attracted to choice #1. A wobbly-in-the-knees type attraction. The other two you find physically appealing and like their personalities. The first choice knocks you over.

        4. Adrian

          Emily it was discussed in another post (I can not remember which one) that most men like to believe that physical attraction is not as important to women as it is to men, but all most all the female commenters confirmed that was a lie. Because of this myth many women try to force themselves to date guys they have no attraction to in hopes for something to spark-it rarely happens.


          Of course there are levels to attraction for both men and women, but it is rare to find that weak in the knees attraction, plus I think men and women use different time frames. Most men care more about the moment, which is why we focus more on just the physical attraction, but in my opinion most women look at things more long-term, maybe not as far as marriage, but at least as far as: “would he make a good boyfriend”. To me this is why “most” women use more than just a man’s looks to rate his attractiveness.

        5. Emily

          To me, physical attraction and attractiveness are 2 different things. They aren’t mutually exclusive, but I can think someone is aesthetically handsome but feel no attraction for him. Attraction is about an energy and a vibe. I can’t tell I’m attracted to someone by looking at a picture. I need to meet him in person. This is why the guy I am most attracted to is not necessarily the best-looking guy in the room.I think men like to think that women don’t care about physical attraction as much as they do because they think if they are good to a woman, he will grow on her over time. It gives men the false idea they have a shot with the women they want, but attraction is as arbitrary and inexplicable a feeling for women as it is for men.

        6. Adrian

          Emily this all just my theory/opinion but the reason I think most men propagate the erroneous -but widely accepted- belief that women don’t care about looks is because, it makes men feel they can look like jabba the hutt and still end up with a Daisy Ridley.


          Just look at all the movies, the overweight, or physically unattractive guy always gets the hot girl because he is a good person, and the women who reject this nice but ugly guy are portrayed as selfish, mean, and shallow. How many movies do you see were the overweight, or unattractive girl ends up with the hot guy (and I mean honestly unattractive, not the hot girl made to look like a nerd until the guy causes her to dress differently showing the world she is truly physically beautiful underneath)?


          Only on comedy movies, does the overweight woman end up with the hot guy, because someone looking like her getting someone that looks like him is suppose to be a joke. So that our male hero isn’t seen as being the shallow like the women who reject him for his looks, his options are never the nice but overweight girl or the honestly unattractive girl. It is always an attractive girl, double standard.


          The myth is, as long as a man is a good person he can end up with the model, but I don’t see the same message for women. Even romance movies like twilight that are based off books, where the main female is supposed to be plain looking but the hot guys still finds her attractive, he still chooses her out of all his options of beautiful girls (which is why most teen girls read these books), once that book reaches Hollywood, they always cast an attractive not a plain or average looking girl to play the lead.


          This strong belief in our society leads us back to what you and I were talking about earlier, how a physically undesirable man can have the balls to criticize the appearance of another. Don’t misunderstand me, I know that we men have also been brain washed to try to live up to a standard of looks and success, like Benjamin said, his height is a huge problem for him, many women can’t see past it to give him enough of a chance to actually get to know him. But I feel when it comes to looks, men and women are held to different standards,   even commercial targeted at women still use mostly very attractive models, though the average woman buying the product does not look like that model cast for the commercial.

      2. 4.2.2


        I think you and Karl have very nicely explicated the point I tried to make in replying to KK earlier in the thread. The process is essentially similar; men and women simply conceptualize it differently, based on different ways of thinking-more analytical and concrete, for most of us, much more “feeling” for most women. Then too, as Karl said, when we (men) are “rating” it’s usually strictly on looks;   we make a distinction between looks and the rest of the package, in a way most women don’t.Again, I don’t think the end result is very different.

        I hear the women here who find our (male) rating system offensive, but I have to say, in my experience, we use that primarily in talking with other men. I don’t ever recall sharing my rating number for a woman I was dating (much less in any sort of relationship with) , with her. No reason to do that,as far as I can see. Of course, guys do rate women out loud, especially when with a group of other guys , but I’d say to those women offended by overhearing those conversations that just as with certain female-to-female conversations most of us guys could do without hearing, if they’re offended, they have the option to tune that out. I doubt either gender is going to change behavior which many find useful, so I don’t see that “being offended” is really going to help anyone. Men say things women don’t like; women say things men don’t like; what else is new?

        1. KK

          “I doubt either gender is going to change behavior which many find useful, so I don’t see that “being offended” is really going to help anyone.”

          If you offend women, they will not date you and likely warn others not to as well. So, while you may not find it useful to be offended, maybe you can see the value in not offending.

  5. 5

    Interesting discussion about intersexual ratings but it is not really the topic for the blog post.

    I think Joe has a valid point in questioning if a man’s height is seen as the most important attractiveness-factor  forcing the 5’5 (and therefore less attractive) guy to lower his standards if he wants to  date  women. Being offended by the  example he uses just sidetracks the whole discussion.

    Anyway, I am 5’5 myself and living in Scandinavia this is pretty tough odds for a man on the dating scene because both genders are pretty tall and being 5’5 is considered being really short.  Though I generally don’t have problems finding   women to date, I have no doubt that the dating pool would be a lot wider if I had another couple of inches. My  own emperical studies therefore  proves Joe’s hypothesis:  Yes, shorter men can date and also date a lot but  they have to significantly lower their standards to be in the game. Being smart, kind, cultural knowledgeable, fit and a good lover helps but goes only a very short way compared to being tall. I wish it was different but it isn’t and I don’t want to argue with reality (because I always lose).

    1. 5.1

      Yes, but it goes both ways Benjamin. I believe the most popular post on this blog is the one about height. In it, literally hundreds of men were angry that women would reject them for their height but these same men felt it was okay to reject women for their weight or their looks.


      The point is, if you are getting in the boxing ring of dating, you have to be prepared to take a punch and not just give them out. If men are going to feel it is okay for them to reject someone they are not attracted to, then they should be prepared to be rejected by women who though he may want her, she does not want him because of his height.


      Have you ever rejected a woman who was not that good looking or overweight? She really wanted you but you were not attracted to her right? I am not taking sides, I am just saying it goes both ways.

      1. 5.1.1

        Obsidian, if you read all my comments on this post, you will see that I do NOT “constantly roll out the woman have it hard to” everytime the topic of men come up.


        I just do not like the victim mentality or the blame game. That never leads to solutions. When men OR women make statements as if the other side does not suffer, I don’t like that. I agree with Not Again when she says, we need to stop argueing over with gender has it worse in the dating game.


        The top 10% in looks have it easier than everyone, everyone below them is going to have a battle, maybe not the same battle, but a struggle with dating in some way. That is all I am saying.


        Plus even if I don’t personally like something about how things happen in the dating game, I had to begrudgingly agree with Evan; “I had to stop focusing and complaining about what is and is not fair, and I had to start focusing on what is affective. I could continue to do what I have been doing and not get good results or I could start doing what works”!



    2. 5.2
      Not again

      Benjamin, you do realize how that sounded, right?

      Short Guy has to “lower his standards” to date more women. Poor thing. Too bad it never occurred to Short Guy that the women might have preferred a taller man and are lowering THEIR standards to date him.

      1. 5.2.1

        Hi, Not Again, I am not a natural english speaker so I am sorry if I have offended you. I was just trying to put forward the idea that short men have to compromise a lot more than taller men. That’s alright because life is about compromise – as is all relationships. I also realise that 99,9% women prefer a tall guy so any date with me would also be  a compromise for them. I may not like it but that’s how the world is. So are you really just proving my point?

        Adrian, why are you telling med this. Have I suggested otherwise? And yes, I have rejected obese  women because by being obese is suggesting that they have a lifestyle very different from my own (but I have indeed dated many really cute women that were not by any standards slim). But what’s your  point? Have you rejected women and what does that prove?


        1. Benjamin

          Correction to grammar in my comment above 😉

          Should have been something along the lines: “And yes, I may reject an obese woman romantically because if a women is obese she might not have the same (very active) lifestyle as me (and sharing activities is important to me).”

          Also, now I come to think about it. In reality what is the difference between Joe’s number system and measuring a man’s attractiveness by height? Isn’t that just another scale?

          Not that I am using a number system myself, but of course there is differences in attractiveness. My own approach is more binary. Yes/no (maybe will be converted to yes because I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt).

        2. Adrian

          Very interesting point Benjamin with the height and numbering system, I never looked at it like that before. Height, finances, body weight, and attractiveness.   Women have more scales than men when it comes to dating as the article I posted below proves.


          I have seen women reject good guys because he was her height or a few inches taller that her but still under 6 feet. If a 5 ft 6 inch woman had 3 guys lined up and all where the exact same except one was 5’5, one was 5’7 and the last guy was 6’1. I am sure that whether women want to admit it or not, they would internally assign a scale to each man based off his height. Maybe they would not give him a number rating, but there would be a first choice and a last or no choice.

        3. Not again

          Benjamin, my apologies for misunderstanding your points.

        4. Lisa

          I am a skinny woman but I don’t believe a lot of men when they say their concern with dating an overweight female is due to lifestyle differences as you mention.   I think it’s just a cover for being superficial.   I don’t think it’s right that short men get all angry and bitter at women for judging them on their height something they can’t control, but will not date overweight women or women that are anything but 9s or 10s.   Certainly you don’t disagree that one can only do so much to control whether they are a 9 or 10 but other than people that are morbidly obese I think you would be surprised to learn that many people particularly women who are say 40 pounds overweight cannot control it, due to medical conditions.   These women eat healthy and go to the gym 7 days a week, run marathons.   I on the other hand, with my seemingly enviable perfect body eat horribly and detest the gym.   My habits are terrible but I bet you would pick me and not give the other girl a first date.   I’ve been on so many dates with dudes that say how important healthy living and fitness is which is code for I don’t want fat girls.   Go on a few dates with them and you will see just how freaking healthy they live!!!!!!

        5. Buck25


          Would you agree that a man who actually does keep his weight at a   a fit level, is not “wrong” to ask that a woman do the same?   I think saying” I prefer someone who can keep up with me” (definitely not a lie) is kinder than saying “I will not date a woman who is more than 20 pounds overweight”. In any case, neither you nor anyone else is going to get me to date a woman I find hideously unattractive due to obesity, no matter what nonsense you spout about women not being able to control their weight (most can, if they want to) and any man who dares refuse to date fatties being a superficial hypocrite. The only”medical problems” most beached whales (male or female) have, are self-medicating with food, and the exercise habits of a two-toed sloth. No hypocrisy here, as I’m not asking anyone to do what I can’t or won’t!

        6. Adrian

          Buck25! Please! Watch your language! You say many intelligent things but your wording -often abusive and disrespectful- turns many female readers off, which causes many on this site to avoid reading your comments.


          I personally workout hard   at the gym 6 days a week, I have a chiseled muscular body with the six pack and everything, but so what? I don’t look down on anyone who is overweight, how does belittling another human being improve my life?


          I am not saying this in a chastising manner, I am merely making a suggestion. When you make statements like women who are overweight are “hideously unattractive”, “fatties”, “beached whales”, and “two-toed sloths”, what exactly are you trying to accomplish???


          How does saying such horrible things about another human being who is capable of being hurt by such words help anyone?


          Most importantly, Evan’s site attracts millions of readers, I believe he stated about 95% of those reader are women; we few regular commenters are less than 1% of the millions of women (and men) of all sizes that are reading the comments. We read the comments for answers, different points of views, and most importantly to help us improve our odds of finding lasting love. We don’t read the comments section to feel worse about ourselves, to feel like there is no hope for us to find love.


          Buck25, how do you think it makes a woman who is overweight feel, reading a man say such cruel things about overweight women on a site designed to help WOMEN get better at dating? Evan could ban all of us guys from commenting if he feels we are attacking his core audience.


          Look at Chance and Karl S, both say many things that a lot of women do not agree with, but the female commenters engage them still because at the end of the day, neither guy is trying to be intentionally hurtful, they just have strong opinions and beliefs like we all do.


          And what about poor Benjamin, just from reading the comments on here, he has heard at least half a dozen women admit that his height won’t stop him from finding love if he keeps trying. He would not have had so many women reply to his concerns so warmly if he would have came on this site attacking women or saying things that are just vicious about women.


          Anyway, remember Buck25 I am not attacking you, nor telling you what you can and can not do, this is Evan’s site not mine, and I enjoy reading your views on dating since you are older and have more dating experience than I do. I am just suggesting that you be considerate of the feelings of others, I am sure you can still get your point across without using such mean spirited words.


          Besides, you said you have a girlfriend now, so it should not matter what others are doing online, let us single people worry about that. 🙂

        7. Benjamin

          @Adrian: Poor Benjamin? WTF? Why would you say something like that? Do you even start to realize how condescending that is? Are you basically saying that less tall men being should just hang in there because sooner or later a woman will take pity on you? Because it really sounds that way.

          Anyway, I was just agreeing with Joe original hypothesis: Yes, a man  below average height can definitely find women to date. Would the women in question be as attractive as the ones a taller man can pull? Not so much. Generally speaking.

          Also, I don’t really get why a man’s height always get compared to a woman’s weight in these discussions. One thing is beyond a person’s control the other typical isn’t. And  height does not affect a person’s appearance (i.e. someone  is not less handsome or fit because he  is not of average height) but too much flesh on your body certainly does. Yes, there is such a thing as too many curves. And it’s not really sexy.


    3. 5.3

      He, he, he, the norsemen is really tall.

  6. 6

    Using the 1-10   numbering system is a thing I’ve heard among PUA types who tend to dehumanize women as a rule. The tactics of PUA basically encourage men to think of women as a monolithic hive mind where if you learn the right cheat code, you can manipulate each woman the same way to “get” sex. The number system is just one way to dehumanize women. It may “make sense” to the men using the system, but I for one find it dehumanizing and offensive, and a signifier for how the person speaking thinks of women as a whole. Absolutely not once have I ever rated men on a 1-10 scale on a night out with my girlfriends or even in my head.

    And yes, I think the idea of “rating” men on a binary scale of “would I?” or “wouldn’t I?” makes more sense, but for me (and a lot of women I know) that tends to happen on a scale that takes in the person’s looks, personality, presence, and a lot of other intangible factors, and takes into account the whole person rather than treating the men like pieces of meat whose only important qualities are their looks.

    Basically, sure, you might rate women on a 1-10 scale based only on looks in your head or with your buddies, and there may be reasons for it that you might label “logical,” but it’s really sexist and dehumanizing and a lot of women find it insulting (even if they’d be on the high end of that scale), so maybe it’s something you shouldn’t just trot out in front of women like it’s not deeply offensive to many of us.

    1. 6.1
      Karl S

      I think it partly depends on whether one uses the “numbering system of looks” as the sole basis for whether they pursue somebody. I can’t pretend I’d go for somebody I had no psychical attraction to even if they had a great personality, but I’d more inclined to go for a decent looking person who is also lovely over a lovely-looking person who is less than decent. I’ve been seeing a woman for 6 months now who I find attractive, but if I were to rate her looks objectively I’d have to conceded she’s not so high on a number scale. Neither am I, in my own opinion (yet beyond all reason, she’s attracted to me too). What’s important is that she treats me really well and I’m experienced enough to know now how important that is.

      Of course, I’d never mention a number score in front of a women, even in reference to another women. You’re right about reducing people to a number being dehumanizing, which is why I always consider as merely one frame of reference with regard to dating.

      1. 6.1.1

        I think it’s great to know that how the person treats you is really important, more so than looks. But I  know that if I were dating someone, and I found out that they were thinking of me as “not so high on a number scale” in terms of attractiveness but had other good qualities (and especially if they were talking about me to their friends in those terms), I don’t think I’d be comfortable dating  or sleeping with them .   I’d want the person I’m with to find me attractive. Nobody wants to be the person that someone settles for.

        1. Karl S

          I should clarify (and this is my fault for implying it otherwise), but I think guys only really *talk* about a number score in reference to women they met briefly, or saw across a room in passing, etc. I think once they actually start getting to know them, they talk more about how that person makes them feel. I only used my girlfriend then to argue a different point.

          The idea of settling certainly has negative connotations, but I think it really depends on what you’re settling for. Everything’s a compromise, no? I’ve been with more attractive women who treated me poorly and I’ve shared off the charts chemistry that went south real fast. I could keep chasing those women (and part of me still wants to) but I’m settling for what’s good for me instead right now. No idea if it’ll work out, but it’s so much more chill and that has to be a good sign.

          Tying into that, I think it’s important to find someone who doesn’t mind the way you think and the language you use to discuss love. I rub a lot of women the wrong way by my tendency to be more matter-of-fact about it. I’m also a lot more emotionally guarded and tentative these days. I couldn’t be with someone who needed me to declare them the love of my life or the most beautiful person I’ve ever met, etc. It really all boils down to someone wanting to be with me more than not be with me – for that moment – and seeing where the next moment goes. Of course, I’ve seen plenty of happy couples who don’t talk like that at all.

          Interesting related article –

          This all way off topic, but hey – one can could say that height is a number’s scale women tend to use (but as with looks, should not be the deal breaker if everything else is good).

        2. Maya

          @Karl–trying to reply to your comment below, but for some reason there’s no “reply” option under your comment.

          Just read that article you linked to. This is SO interesting. I really perked up when the letter writer asked this question:

          Is recognizing that your girlfriend is not ranking at the top of your scale in terms of looks but is the best “package” you can get in terms of looks-personality-values etc. a sign of a mature man, or a sign of a man who’s not really in love?

          I have so many feelings around this. I am 100% with the letter writer and for me, being the “best package” who isn’t the most beautiful to the man I’m with is basically my nightmare. I’d never want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks of me that way and I’d seriously doubt the relationship if the guy I was with described me that way.

          This isn’t to say that it’s objectively “bad” to feel that way about your girlfriend or your girlfriend should leave you or anything–I don’t know that every woman feels this way. But for me, it’s about the person I love–the person I chose as my Top Choice–also seeing me as HIS Top Choice. Not seeing me as “ugly, but I love you anyway because we have 2 kids and a mortgage and divorcing you is too damn expensive.” Or, “Definitely not the hottest woman I’ve been with but she waits on me hand and foot, so.” Which is kind of what those comments sound like to me.

          And  I don’t think it’s shallow or immature for women to feel like they HAVE to be seen as the “most beautiful” to the man they are with, or they doubt the whole relationship. I think characterizing it that way misunderstands all the complicated dynamics at work here about how society (“the patriarchy,” the media, whatever you want to call it) drums into women’s heads basically from birth that our  beauty is the only thing that really gives us value.

          Some women feel this more than others. Some women may not  be bothered by their bfs and husbands  calling them “not so hot, but really the best I can do, in a whole-package sense.” (But the pressure to be the “chill girl” is STRONG and I bet some  women who act cool with this language really aren’t as much as they say).

          But that doesn’t mean the message about beauty isn’t still powerful–it’s there in the very first comment on this post, where the commenter Joe equated the “quality” of women a tall / short man can get based on her attractiveness number ranking. That’s it right there: our quality as people, ranked on a 1-10 scale in terms of our outer beauty.


          I think it might be effective to draw the connection to how women talk about a man’s penis size or performance in bed. Would guys  feel completely happy and comfortable being  with a woman who said (publicly or privately) that his  penis was “not the biggest I’ve ever been with, kinda small actually, but he treats me really well” or describes him  in bed as “not that great; I’ve faked lots of orgasms and my exes were much better lovers, but he treats me really well.” For a lot of guys (and you may or may not be one of them), I would imagine that would hit them right in a deep, deep place that would make them question if their partner really did want to be with them or was just settling for “what she could get.”

          Some guys get this, and will ALWAYS say “you’re the most beautiful woman in the world, sweetie” whenever their partner has an insecure moment. Some guys totally don’t get this, and will drop the “OBVIOUSLY, Angelina Jolie is way hotter than you, honey, and btw you’re shallow if this hurts you,” but some women truly won’t be hurt.

          I think that most likely, the most successful couples communicate around this issue in a way where the man doesn’t feel   like he’s constantly lying and the woman doesn’t feel constantly torn down–where either he really does find her the most beautiful because he’s that passionate about her, or she is really not that affected by poisonous societal messages around beauty. Or both.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          You’ve got way too much ego tied up in your beauty, Maya. This post will probably make your head explode:

          In short, you’re entitled to feel the way you do – it’ll just restrict two things:

          1. The number of men you can date. More attractive men will have dated more attractive women than you (quite objectively). So you’ll probably be left with slightly less attractive men who are playing out of their league with you.
          2. The honesty of the men you can date. If you want a cute, charismatic guy with any measure of experience, you are also asking him to lie to you in order to keep the peace. That’s fine. Many relationships are built on a series of small lies.

          In other words, if you want an attractive guy who HONESTLY hasn’t been with a woman who is more beautiful than you, you may be waiting a pretty long time. The fact that he married you means that he’s attracted to you, he thinks the sex is good, and he thinks the full package is the best he’s ever found. That, for most people, is enough. I could give a crap if my wife has ever been with a guy who is taller, cuter, richer, better hung, etc. She chose ME! That’s the way I encourage you to feel. That’s not settling. That’s reality.

        4. Adrian

          Maya   many people say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but because of science I disagree. Beauty is universal, but attraction… Now that is in the eye of the beholder.


          Most men are not going to vocalize if they believe another woman is more beautiful than their girlfriend or wife, and even if asked, he would readily lie and say she is the most beautiful.


          But Maya, if your boyfriend saw you (Remember I don’t know you or how you look, this is just an example) and some random victoria secret model would you really be upset if you found out he “thought” the model was more beautiful? Most men in love are attracted to the woman they are in love with and no one else, but that does not mean that he does not still recognize other and more beautiful women than the one he is with. You should likewise recognize that though he finds other women more beautiful, he chooses not to pursue her, just as most women see guys everyday better looking than their boyfriends but don’t reciprocate when those guys to flirt with them.


          The point is, a man can think another woman is more beautiful or sexy but still only want you. I know it is semantics but I believe many people confuse attractive with attraction. Recognizing that someone is attractive does not mean that you are attracted to them. I know many beautiful women who because of how they act or treat others, I feel no attraction toward them.

        5. Buck25


          The question is what is “settling”?   Suppose choice (B) is objectively more attractive than choice (A). So is accepting (A)  and rejecting (B) “settling”? Maybe, but maybe not.

          For instance, I’m as visual as any man when it comes to attraction, and yet, I’ve met exactly two women in my life with whom the initial physical attraction was off the charts…and neither was among the (objectively speaking) best looking women I’ve dated, or even the best looking woman available to me at the time. Both (again, objectively) were average to slightly above average in looks, though to me, they were beautiful. So, what Karl said in 6.1 above makes perfect sense to me. By contrast, I’ve met a number of very (objectively) physically beautiful women, and felt little to no initial attraction to them (and not because of any apparent personality deficiencies, either); something just wasn’t there. “Chemistry” is a strange thing, sometimes; and while looks play a huge part in it for most of us men, there are definitely other aspects to it (I would guess mostly on a subconscious level). Perhaps even purely physical attraction really is something with “more to it than meets the eye”.


        6. Maya

          @Buck25 and @Adrian, I actually love that you said what you did, because it sounds completely fine and non-offensive–like you’re well aware that a woman’s “value” and even your level of attraction to her isn’t always about what you might see as her “objective” level of beauty. You’re absolutely right, it’s definitely possible (even pretty common IMO) to be very attracted to people who wouldn’t win the cover of Time’s “Sexiest Person Evarrr” issue.

          I’m kind of feeling out my thinking on this–I came into this discussion not really knowing why, but feeling a very strong aversion to the idea of my partner ever saying to me “I find you a seven on a scale of 1-10, but you’re great in other ways so I guess I’ll stay with you.” It sounded like settling. It sounded like “I’m not attracted to you, but you’re the best I can do. I’d still choose a hotter woman if I could get her, though, or if it wouldn’t be such a hassle to break up with you.” THAT is my nightmare scenario.

          Now I think it really is (as someone said somewhere else in this thread) a lot more about how my partner treats me than about what they “objectively” think about my beauty. It’s about not using that horrible numbers system. It’s about knowing that if I ever do get insecure (as everyone does) and ask some ill-advised question about whether I’m hotter than a Victoria’s Secret model, my partner will be kind enough to say, “you’re the hottest woman in the world to ME.” It’s about that same partner maybe intuiting that the gorgeous woman in the magazine or in the movie might be making me feel insecure (because Patriarchy, because Media, because all kinds of reasons that even the strongest-minded woman may be able to fend off most of the time, but we all have our insecure moments)–and, instead of offering me what he sees as the “objective” truth, knowing I need to feel deeply desired by him, in that moment, rather than judged against someone else and found wanting.

          I think it’s less about what my partner privately thinks about the circumference of that Victoria’s Secret model’s thighs or how symmetrical her face is vs. mine, or something.

          I’m not saying this is the Objective Best Way to Relationship or anything. I’m just saying that I think it’s what I need. Sorry I’ve been hijacking this thread a bit, but it’s been really fun to talk about this.

        7. Not again

          “Beauty is universal”

          Is it though?

        8. Maya

          @Evan, yeah I read that 🙂

          I think there are loads of things that will restrict the number of guys I can date, anyway. If I say I want to date someone who’s mentally healthy, has his life together, is sexually attractive to and compatible with me, is within a certain age range, has a great sense of humor, is as into me as I am into him, etc. etc….all of those things limit who I can  be with. It’s okay with me, because I’m really only looking for one person. And I don’t think including “Is wildly passionate about me and finds me madly attractive” is too much to ask. I think I’m an attractive person and I  don’t think it’s unreasonable to want a  partner who  thinks so too.

          As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread about the lying vs. telling the truth thing, I don’t really see it that way. Here’s what I said:

          I also don’t see it as “lying” vs. “Telling the truth.” It may be objectively true, yes, that some supermodel or actress has slimmer thighs, bigger boobs,  and a more symmetrical face than me. But it would (hopefully) be true as well that my partner sees me as the most beautiful woman in the world to HIM, because of a combination of my looks, personality, and other qualities.
          It’s not that I want to be with a man who lies to me. It’s more like I want to be with someone who has the social and interpersonal intelligence to know which “truth” is called for in that moment.

          Also, this may not be a very popular opinion, but I think honesty can be an overrated quality in an relationship sometimes. Yes, I think in general honesty is important. But with some very sensitive subjects, it should be balanced with tact in an intelligent way. Saying you honestly think your partner isn’t as attractive as your ex or something is just not very smart, objectively.

          I think a lot of people think “honesty” should just entitle  them to make whatever hurtful comments they want without considering the other person’s feelings. In my life I’ve had too many hurtful comments made to me in the name of “honesty” to have that win any points with me. “Honesty” is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for cruelty.

          And no, that doesn’t mean I want a man who lies to me. I want a man who understands which truths to tell and how to word them to best support his partner in the way she  needs. I don’t think that’s walking on eggshells. I think it’s basic emotional intelligence, and it’s also a thing I’d try to do for my partner.

          And like I said, I don’t think people who don’t operate this way are “wrong” necessarily, as long as they are with partners  who also honestly don’t care. I just think those people probably won’t make good partners to me. Which is fine; not everyone is a match for everyone else.

        9. Evan Marc Katz

          You didn’t say that you want your man to be passionate about you and find you attractive. You said that he should find you MORE attractive than ANYONE he’s EVER dated.

          The former is fair. The latter is not.

        10. Maya

          @Evan– that would be the IDEAL, sure. But if it’s not honestly the case, I’d just want to be with someone who made me  feel  like the most beautiful woman he’s ever dated. If he loved me enough to choose me, then hopefully I’m the “objective best” to him for reasons that include but aren’t limited to my looks, so it shouldn’t be so far from truth that it makes him feel like he’s lying.

          If he honestly feels that I’m not as hot as some ex in his private thoughts, that’s fine as long as he never makes me feel that way or out-and-out tells me to my face.

          In my dream world, sure, I’d love to date a guy who’s honestly so smitten by me that he really thinks I’m the hottest woman who’s ever walked the earth. But more realistically,  I wouldn’t want to date the type of person  who thinks it’s OK to tell me that kind of thing in the name of “honesty.” It’s needlessly  cruel and shows a really troubling lack of concern for my feelings.

  7. 7


    I really appreciated your explanation of how men take things literally with a rating system. Whereas, women tend to factor in many other traits. That makes sense to me. I admit I’ve always been quite offended by the rating system. Always good to see things from a different perspective.

  8. 8

    I have personally seen it about 5 times in my life. Women who were over 6 feet tall with guys who were about 5’8-11, so it does happen.


    I have seen countless guys who were about 5’7 or shorter with really pretty girls, though most were young, fresh out of high school or in college. Maybe height doesn’t really start to matter until we get older.

  9. 9

    While women want tall guys, men want younger women. Some rather short women refuse to date men who aren’t 6 feet or so. Similarly, some men in their fifties won’t date women over 40. Dating can be really hard for people in general.

    1. 9.1

      I agree Theo. The men who get offended and throw temper tantrums about the women who prefer to date men 6’0 and above are hypocrites because we all know that most men discriminate against women all the time, just for different reasons. Most men singlehandedly will pick apart a woman based on looks, weight, hair color, breast zie, etc.   and age. Most prefer to date a woman younger than themselves, even when there are plenty of attractive women in their 40’s now. But men are too shallow to look past a woman’s looks to find the beauty in a woman that comes with age.

      1. 9.1.1

        Sigh… Jax, you are doing the same thing as the men in the height post on this blog. You are using a double standard.


        You say man are shallow too shallow, but women are also. Actually, according to the famous relationship scientist Helen Fisher, women are more picky than men.


        The point is, when it comes to dating, neither gender can claim monopoly of the moral high road. Women reject men for all the same reasons that men reject women for. Actually like Karl S stated, women are even worse because they reject men for not meeting all their requirements, while men just reject women for not finding her “personally” attractive.

        An example of this is, a man who is handsome, successful, but not tall; or a guy who is tall, handsome, but he never went to college; or a guy who is tall, successful, handsome, but admits he likes to watch the occasional   porn; or the guy who is tall, handsome, successful, kind, loyal, but doesn’t believe in god; or the guy who is tall, handsome, successful, kind, loyal, but of a different race.


        The point is, men reject good women usually just because he is not attracted to her, but women reject good men for many reasons. I am not saying either side is right for doing it.

        1. Emily


          Actually, the number #1 reason I turn down a date is that I’m not attracted to the man.

          In terms of requirements for a relationship, I need to like him as a person and feel an emotional connection to him. Bonus points if he is a unique person and lives how he wants to without much concern for society’s mores or dictates. That’s it. I don’t care about status, height or income, provided he can support himself.

        2. Buck25


          You’re on a roll, here. Nailed it, again! There’s no moral high ground here; BOTH genders are picky   (and sometimes unfairly so); it may be over different qualities, but it’s still there.   It’s especially true online, where we can (and we all do) dismiss someone with a keystroke-easy, and completely impersonal; but we do it in real life as well. There’s no blame to be placed really; we all want what we think is the best outcome we can get; it’s hard to fault a man or a woman for that.

          I’m beginning to wish we’d just stop arguing over who’s more “shallow”; the word has become an accusatory epithet to   throw at anyone of the opposite sex who isn’t attracted to someone like us. I don’t see that changing anything, so aside from venting frustration, it’s really pretty useless.

  10. 10

    A woman who wouldn’t return a message from a short guy one a dating site might date him if they were school friends and had common interests.   It’s like weight with women: a few fetishists aside a an obese woman is out of luck on a dating site.   Not that it’s easy in real life but in real life most of us treat others as human beings rather than just profile pics.

  11. 11


    I can understand why you, and many other women, find the rating system offensive. It does come across as a form of objectification. However, the reason it’s used (in my opinion)  is because men generally are more open to sleeping with women we find even mildly attractive (provided we’re single at the time), irrespective of personality. So the rating system is simply one way of denoting this point. The higher on the scale, the greater the desire for sex (and not necessarily a relationship). It has nothing to do with PUA tactics. That said, I would never rate a woman like that in front of other women, and certainly not to deliberately dehumanize them.

    I have to take issue with your assertion that it’s necessary for a man to believe that the woman he’s in a relationship with is the most attractive woman he’s ever dated. To me, that would signify an enormous level of insecurity, which always leads to other problems. Your analogy to a woman faking orgasms is not accurate. If I found out that a woman I was dating was consistently faking orgasms I would be concerned because it would mean that her needs weren’t being met (at least in this one area). My concern would not stem from feelings of inadequacy.

    An interesting anecdote relating to this issue: In my mid-twenties I once dated a    girl who held that exact attitude. She insisted that any man she was dating would have to consider her the absolute most gorgeous woman he’d ever dated or even laid eyes on. Needless to say, this attitude was linked to a lot of baggage. Her low self-esteem morphed into pathological jealousy and possessiveness. Funny thins is, in terms of her looks (and only her looks) she remains the most attractive woman I’ve ever dated. Objectively speaking, I’d rate her between an 8.5-9 on the scale, ha;)

    1. 11.1

      @Shaukat I don’t think it’s necessary for a man to objectively believe the woman he’s dating is the single most beautiful person he’s ever seen. Look, I think most women are actually pretty cognizant of where they “rank” on that ten-point scale. We all know we’re not Angelina Jolie. And even if we are, there will always be someone younger and hotter. ALWAYS. We all know that, barring egomaniacs and really insecure people.

      What’s important to me is that the man I’m with make me feel that I’m the most beautiful woman on the planet.

      Privately, he may think I’m maybe third in attractiveness compared to all his exes but so awesome in other ways that I more than make up for it. But that is not the kind of thing you tell me. Why would you?   It would hurt my feelings and make me doubt my own attractiveness (and I’m not insecure; I’m pretty happy with my looks overall) and do NOTHING to contribute to the relationship. “Honesty” here is just another word for “being an a**hole.”

      (And on the flip side, I might rank him third in terms of penis size or whatever other metric matters most to him, among all my exes, but it really isn’t that important to me compared with all his good qualities. Also a thing to be filed under “no reason to tell him.”)

      What’s important to me is that the man I’m with make me feel like the most beautiful woman in the room, no matter who else is there. That kind of man I can be VERY secure with. I won’t have to ask if he’s attracted to me. I won’t have to worry he’ll cheat. I can feel secure in loving him without worrying about getting hurt. And of course that should go along with treating me well in other ways.

      What he thinks about my looks in an “objective” sense (even though we all know looks are subjective), or where he ranks me on the ten-point scale,  is just not something  he should tell me  unless he’d honestly rate me at a ten. Not because I’m sooo insecure, but because it’s needlessly cruel and does nothing for either me or the health of the relationship.

      1. 11.1.1

        When you explain it this way Maya, I completely understand and agree with you. A boyfriend or husband should not just say that another woman is more attractive, and he should make you feel like you are the most attractive woman to him.


        But I believe in the post Karl S linked to, the girl is the one who asked the boyfriend.

        1. Maya

          Actually, she responded in the comments to say that she made a statement  like “I think I’m as attractive as Angelina Jolie” and he said something like, “No you’re not. You’re okay, but she’s gorgeous.” (I’m paraphrasing, but I think it was something like that.”

          Yeah, we all have insecure moments. To be honest, if I ever asked a question like that of my partner, I’d hope they realize that the question isn’t “Am I objectively better looking than Angelina? Would all the dudes on Reddit rate me higher using the totally-objective ten-point scale? Would her agent call me about modeling gigs, in your opinion? What is the Truthiest Truth?” What I’d really want to know is, “Do YOU personally find me more desirable than the most desirable women on the planet, even though she’s so hot in this movie that she’s making me feel ugly right now? Would you choose me if you could be with someone like her? Am I more beautiful TO YOU?” And I’d really, really want that answer to be a yes.

          If objectively it isn’t, fair enough–but really, it shouldn’t be that hard to intuit that “objective truth” (which is still subjective) isn’t what’s needed in that moment.

        2. Adrian

          Maya, if that is what and how her boyfriend responded, then yes, he was wrong. Personally I have never saw what the hype was about Angelina or most of the celebrities. Since I’ve gone back to college to get my Masters degree, I see girls on campus everyday without makeup who would put most celebrities to shame in looks.



          I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you. But just know (in my opinion) Evan answers questions from his perspective, he is alpha, and I have met many pseudo Alpha men, but true Alphas are rare. Women say they want Alpha’s but I think they say that because they have never truly been around those type of men, what they really want is a man with the “positive” alpha attributes.


          I can not speak for Evan, and he will correct me if I am wrong, but to someone like Evan, total honesty, trust, and emotional security all go hand and hand in a good relationship. As he said, he nor his wife would ask each other such a question, but at the same time, I believe that he would expect her to realize that he finds other women attractive, and he would not be surprised that she can name 10 guys who she thinks are sexier than him. So by lying to her, he would not be strengthening their relationship, he would be destroying it, by proving to her that she can not trust his words, and if she can not trust his words, how can she ever feel secure when he says she is beautiful or that he loves her.


          So to you Maya, I would advise finding a man who knows when to be and when not to be honest in responding to your questions. Because yes the totally honest guy will hurt your self-esteem, but the liar with good intentions will lose your respect and trust. You want a guy who is not all Alpha and not all Beta, we exist!:-)

        3. Maya

          I dunno; I’m personally not wild about categorizing men as “alpha” or “beta.” That sounds like more PUA language to me. I think it’s also kinda poisonous to men.

          I also don’t see it as “lying” vs. “Telling the truth.” It may be objectively true, yes, that some supermodel or actress has slimmer thighs, bigger boobs,  and a more symmetrical face than me. But it would (hopefully) be true as well that my partner sees me as the most beautiful woman in the world to HIM, because of a combination of my looks, personality, and other qualities.

          It’s not that I want to be with a man who lies to me. It’s more like I want to be with someone who has the social and interpersonal intelligence to know which “truth” is called for in that moment.

    2. 11.2
      Not again

      Fair enough Shaukat. But to Maya’s point, how would you feel if your LT GF or wife told you weren’t the best she ever had in bed?

      I’m not taking either side here, I’m just genuinely interested in your thoughts.

      also I don’t get the reasoning about men rating women. You need to assign a woman a number to decide if you want to sleep with her??? I think it’s less about the man himself, and more about bragging rights among his friends. Even here, You’ll find a number of men who like to drop in comments about the 9s and 10s they’ve slept with. And this is a women’s blog LOL

      1. 11.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        a. I don’t ask my wife if I’m the best she’s ever had. There’s a distinct possibility that I might not like the answer. She would have no incentive to volunteer otherwise.

        b. Men rating women is not a “thing.” It’s literally just a shorthand for assessing how physically attractive someone is. It has nothing to do with gender. It’s not something I recommend. But if I talk about a male or a female “10,” it conjures something different than a male or female “3,” does it not? That’s the only point of it.

        1. Not again

          Let me quote Maya:  What’s important to me is that the man I’m with make me feel like the most beautiful woman in the room.

          Which is similar to what I imagine most men would like to feel  in the moment.

          To your other point, if it has nothing to do with gender, why do men do it but women don’t?

        2. Not again

          Let me quote Maya:  What’s important to me is that the man I’m with make me feel like the most beautiful woman in the room.

          Which is similar to what I imagine most men would like to feel  in the moment.

          To your other point, if it has nothing to do with gender, why do men do it but women don’t? Women don’t care how many 10s you’ve been with. Men do. So
          how can you say it’s not about gender?

      2. 11.2.2

        Not Again, what every male here is saying:

        1. Most men will not say or do anything intentionally to make his woman feel inadequate.

        2. Mostly all men will not tell the woman he cares about that he thinks another woman is more attractive or has higher number in the looks department.

        3. If a man ever intentionally makes his woman feel like she is less than, she SHOULD dump him.

        4. Yes! We men use a # ranking for the attractiveness of women, and yes some of us like to brag to other guys about the 9 we are dating.

        But everything I just mentioned women do the same things; even #4. Sure women are a thousand times more subtle than men, but women like to brag about their men too if he is a great catch. They may not just outwardly say I have a 9, but they brag about his looks, or his accomplishments, or if he took her somewhere exotic.


        The only point I think every man on here is trying to make that I feel you and Maya don’t see because you are stuck on the numbering issue, is that women do the same thing we men do; you just go about it in a different way. A woman will talk about the new guy she is dating who does charity work during his off time when he is not working as a fireman, while finding a way to subtly slide he is tall, good looking, and muscular into the conversation.


        I have seen it done countless times by women. But the woman who is dating the 37 year old, slightly overweight, pizza delivery guy, that stays at her home. You hear very little about him. The pizza guy could be the kinder, more giving boyfriend, but he is not bragging material. In most women’s minds, the hunky firemen is a higher quality catch compared to the pizza guy, you just did not give them numbers, but whether you admit it or not, you ranked both men into higher and lower desirability.


        So when you say that a woman does not care about or want to hear about how many 10s her current boyfriend has been with, I agree. Just as I know most men don’t want to hear about how many 10s she’s been with, but if you are saying that women don’t brag to other women that they have a 10 (though she does not give him a number), I will completely disagree with you.

        1. Not again

          Adrian, I never disagreed that women have our ways of rating or ranking men and that we talk among ourselves (and trust me, it’s usually not about his charity work).

          I  also never said men should change how they talk among themselves or self edit just because women are around. I’m not even offended by rating, provided it’s not accompanied by PUA/red pill garbage.

          When I said “women don’t care about how many 10s you’ve been with, men do,” I meant that men brag about their numbers (quality and quantity) to impress other men. To suggest otherwise seems disingenuous.  That’s all.

          PS while I like to know the man I’m with finds me me attractive, I don’t need to be told I’m a 10 when we both know I’m not. My point was just that both men and women all appreciate a little ego stroking.

        2. Buck25


          I wish I could have posted this where you made the comment, but I couldn’t reply there.   Your distaste for the way I express my opinions here is duly noted. I also note that Evan is moderating this blog, and could have deleted my comments , had he so chosen.

          I’m not here to lick any woman’s boots. I’m not here to reinforce their preconceptions, favorable or not. I’m here to speak the truth as I see it, and that includes expressing my personal opinions (which I label as such). I’m NOT PC; never will be, don’t pretend to be. Don’t like it, don’t read it!

          I might be just a little more impressed with your “righteous sensitivity”, were it not for the fact that I’ve read comments from women on this site that were far and away more hateful, and clearly intended to be far more patently offensive, than anything I’ve ever said here. Most of it passes without rejoinder or admonition from either side of the gender aisle. Go on a couple of threads here about age and dating, and take a look at some of the nasty stereotypes about men my age, uttered by women, just as one example. Of course, that’s ok with you; it’s not your ox being gored, right, and besides, those uttering the slurs are so “demure, sensitive and easily offended” that we can’t very well expect the distaff side to take a little of the vitriol some like to dish out?

          I don’t think so. Besides, I think a little “negative motivation” can be a good thing. And since you do like to nitpick, let me point out that “having the exercise habits of a two-toed sloth” IS NOT the same as being a two-toed sloth, but I see you missed that.:-) Oh well, carry on…


        3. Buck25


          While I’m at it, I want to append one more observation to my last post. If you look at everything I post here, you will find some trenchant comments, a good bit of honest observation and questioning, and even on occasion replies to women in which the tone and substance are affirming, supportive, encouraging and empathetic. In essence, I respond, as I am moved to respond, by what I read. I’m not here to offend, or to sugar-coat anything so as not to offend.

          I will assure you of one thing; my experience, dating in a far different age group than your own, is very different from yours; in fact, it’s very different from my own experience when I was in my thirties. The atmosphere, the challenges, the opportunities (or lack of them), , and the reasons why, have some commonalities, and a lot of differences, for which you do not have a reference point. It naturally follows, that my perspective is very different as well. That does not make it “wrong”, just different.


        4. Adrian


          Buck25 all I am trying to say is that while your honesty and personal feelings are great qualities.


          Here on this predominantly female site, more people will listen if you don’t offend. Though I can see from your response that you felt I gave you a personal attack.


          But Buck I believe you are forgetting one very important point. It does not affect me how you speak, I was just giving an opinion. I am not a woman, I do not date men, nor am I overweight. Your remarks do not affect me.


          Believe it or not, I have no incentive to debate you or Obsidian, I gain nothing from defending women, and I Do believe you have the right to feel how you want to feel.

          …                …                …               …               …               …                …               …

          No wait! I have to take all that back! The way you and Obsidian degrade some women will effect me. The millions of women who read the words of angry men will think all men are a certain way. If I, and hopefully other men, do not stand up against people who make us all look bad (male or female), then as the saying goes:


          “All that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing”.


          The only way to show women that your words are just that “your words” and not the feelings or words of all men, is for me and hopefully others to say something. This rule applies to female commenters as well, though it seems that you and Obsidian would disagree that I do this.


          But I rarely have to, whenever a woman says something that is generalized negativity (crazy) about all men, then, all the male readers come out from lurking. From what I have observed, many female commenters (especially Karmic Equation) will correct another woman for saying something crazy about all men, but this rarely happens with crazy male comments.

  12. 12



    Ok, this clarifies your position, however it seemed that you were saying that it’s important that the guy you’re dating to objectively believe that you’re the most physically attractive woman he’s ever dated. After all, you did write this: “being the “best package” who isn’t the most beautiful to the man I’m with is basically my nightmare.”

    My point was simply that it’s possible for  a guy to subjectively feel that you’re the most attractive woman he’s been with based on the entire package, while simultaneously understanding that objectively he’s dated women who were better looking.

  13. 13
    Karl S


    This whole argument over looks seems to actually be about how a partner treats you. Of course, no women should ever put up with a guy who goes out of his way to remind her that she’s average looking or takes the first punt at letting her know what his perspective is. If a guy acts like that, then she should bail hard. But most of the discussion from myself and guys here about numbering someone’s looks is completely separate to how they would treat someone they’re actually dating.

    1. 13.1

      I agree 100%

  14. 14

    I’m just over 5′. Dated a man who’s 5’6″ short-term. My ex-BF is 5’10, has strong Italian features, athletic built, has receding hairline. He got laid a lot because he is charming, aggressive in a bad boy kinda way, know his way around women and not afraid to get shut down.

    My current beau is 6’2″, a tad stocky but not overweight, a marathon runner, has gentle baby face features. In spite of his height, looks and very interesting career, he didn’t get laid a lot IMO because he’s too picky, will only go out on a first date with hot slender attractive women, has a bit of an ego or perhaps afraid of getting rejected.

    Height helps. However, tall or short, a man must have confidence and effective game plan on how to get laid. 🙂




  15. 15
    Karl S

    *and by “letting her know what his perspective is”, I mean something like giving her a score to her face (because my initial phrasing there was a bit vague).

    So much of this argument seems to misconstrue “context” for when and how it’s applied.

  16. 16

    Well, beauty is subjective. I need the person I”m with to believe I’m the most beautiful person he’s ever been with, subjectively. If he  honestly thinks I’m better looking than all the supermodels in the world, that  would be GREAT, of course. If his position is I’m better looking to all the supermodels TO HIM, whether or not all the other guys at the bar would agree, it doesn’t really matter to me–I just need to believe he feels that way about me.

    Well, ideally, I’d want the guy to think I was the hottest thing out there. If he didn’t think that, I’m not the thought police–but it wouldn’t really make a difference as long as he never said anything to the effect of “I think my exes were all way hotter than   you but you’re better for me package-wise” and never let me think he ever had that thought. If he out-and-out SAID it, it would be really hard for me to feel secure in the relationship (and it’s not that I’m insecure at all. It has more to do with how I want to feel in a relationship–I want to feel super attractive to my partner).

    Honestly, if he  thinks a supermodel is a lot hotter than me but I’m better for him package-wise, that would be easier to take than if he thought his exes were better looking than me. Exes are attainable. Supermodels have stylists and photoshop and makeup artists and plastic surgery, and even THEY don’t look that good in real life.

    If he said to me “I think my exes were way hotter than you, but you just treat me better,” because of all the baggage about women’s value being mostly about their looks, I’d have lots of thoughts about whether he was settling and whether or not he’d stay with me if some hot ex came back into the picture or something. I know guys swear up and down that they can say stuff like that and  still genuinely love their spouse and not want to leave them for a hot ex, and they can “love” their spouse and still want to “f– other women,” but my heart doesn’t work like that and it would be hard for me to have faith in my partner’s love for me if I knew  theirs did. So if they have those thoughts–like I said, I’m not the thought police–I don’t suppose I would care as long as I never caught a whiff of it. If I did, it would be another story.

    1. 16.1

      And yeah, to relate this back to the discussion about the ten-point scale–using that around women definitely makes a lot of women feel objectified and demeaned, and I’m heartened to hear that most men on here would know not to do that and don’t mean to be demeaning.

      I wonder, though, if having those conversations among guys themselves just perpetuates a habit of thinking of women  in an objectifying manner, as having an objective “value” ranking based only on looks–that carries over into the way guys treat and relate to women, even if they know better than to say that stuff outright. I think if I knew my partner “rated” women this way among his friends I’d be disturbed, even if he never talked that way around me.

      But sure, some women probably talk about men in a way they wouldn’t like either, and I’m not the conversations-among-dudes police. But it might be a thing to think about.

      1. 16.1.1

        Maya, just to slightly touch the base with the topic this blog post is about. I understand that you don’t like the idea of rating but have you ever yourself dated a man who was not as tall as yourself. Why not?

        Would you consider dating a guy 5’5 or less if everything else in the value department was in place? Why not?

        Would  you find two identical men equally attractive if the only difference was that one man was 5’5 and the other 6’0, Why not?

        1. Maya

          Well, I’m  pretty short  and I haven’t really met a ton of guys who are shorter than me (a few, but not that many). I’ve dated guys who were on the shorter end and guys who were taller; maybe the shortest guy I’ve dated was around 5’7″. Objectively, he was one of  the hottest guy I’ve dated too.

          I think if I met two guys with identical looks and identically awesome personalities and the only difference was height, I would honestly probably be more attracted to the taller guy. But this isn’t a very realistic scenario.

          I’ve met plenty of tall guys who I wouldn’t want to date and who I didn’t personally find attractive. I went on one date with a guy who was 6’6″ once and was really not attracted to him at all, in part because the height difference was just TOO much (but also because of other reasons).

          I’ve also been wildly attracted to men under 6′, like my ex who was 5’7″. I think in general, I would say I’m like most women in preferring taller men, but there are so many ways a guy can be attractive even if he’s not the tallest one in the room. What tends to happen with me is if I’m really into a guy, I start to see his height as “perfect” and anyone taller than him as “too tall.” But that’s just me.

    2. 16.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      “I need the person I’m with to believe I’m the most beautiful person he’s ever been with, subjectively.”

      That probably means you want your husband to lie to you. Which is fine. Many men are comfortable doing that.

      1. 16.2.1

        @Evan I think the key word in that sentence is “subjectively.” I think if the guy I’m with can’t see me as the most beautiful woman in the world TO HIM (regardless of whether or not I’m the new face of L’Oreal or whatever), then this relationship probably has bigger problems.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          That’s where you’re mistaken, Maya. I don’t think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. We could not be happier in our marriage. This is what I’m trying to explain to you. It is NOT a sign of relationship failure if your husband finds a 24-year-old Instagram model hotter than you. And as I said in the Angelina Jolie blog post, I’d be more concerned about a woman who thought that our relationship was weak because of that fact.

        2. Maya

          I dunno; this isn’t really a referendum on your relationship. I’m sure you and your wife are really happy.

          But yeah, if I was looking at Instagram and had a really insecure moment and said to my bf (not the ideal question, I admit) “hey, am I hotter than that Instagram model?” I wouldn’t want that answer to be “yes, honey, she totally buries you. But don’t worry, you have a GREAT personality.”

          It’s a question that’s more complicated than it looks and requires careful handling by the partner, at least for me. Some guys want the privilege of just indiscriminately saying whatever they want when presented such a question, with no consequences in their relationship. Some women honestly would never be so insecure as to ask a question like that.

          I wish I was like that, but I have my insecure moments sometimes (even though I’m pretty secure overall), and a guy like that wouldn’t work as a partner for me.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          1. Don’t ask a question where you don’t want to know the answer.

          2. He probably shouldn’t say, “She totally buries you,” but he could say, “Don’t ask me that question,” or “Do you really want to know?” or “I married you, didn’t I?” Otherwise, you’re literally FORCING him to lie – which, for some of us, is extremely uncomfortable.

          3. This debate isn’t about whether a guy is going up to his girlfriend and saying, “You’re 15 lbs overweight; you should look more like HER.” There’s no defense for that. We’re only talking about this weird thing that women have in their heads which states that if he loves you, he should think you’re the most beautiful woman in the world. That is NOT TRUE and you will find MANY more men who agree with me – they married the cool, easygoing, fun woman, as opposed to the HOTTEST woman they ever dated. I would think that would be something to celebrate in this shallow culture, but hey, what do I know?

        4. Maya

          @Evan–you know, this is a really interesting train of thought. I guess I have a big aversion to being the “cool, easygoing, fun woman” who isn’t the hottest my man ever dated. Physical passion is very important to me. If I knew that’s how my guy saw me, I wouldn’t be able to get it out of my head that they’re comparing me to a hot ex every time they see me naked, or something.

          And like I said, this isn’t about you and your wife. Not every woman feels this way; not every guy who isn’t 100% THE MOST attracted to his wife is not in love with her. I’m sure there are plenty of people who can be really happy in this situation. I’m not one of them, but that doesn’t make your relationship “wrong” and mine “right.” There is only “right for me” and “right for you.”

          There are also plenty of other things you can say to a partner who asks a tricky question like that that reaffirms her value AND your passion for her, rather than something like “don’t ask that question” (which is basically the same thing as “she’s hotter than you”) or “I married you, didn’t I?” (which comes off as “I’d marry her if I could, but you’re the best I could get”).

          For instance, you could say something like “Babe, I’d mow her over to get to you.” Boom. Done. Hopefully that wouldn’t be  a lie.

      2. 16.2.2

        The purpose of this website is helping women to understand men. I think what Maya and others have stated is an attempt at helping men understand women. A man that can make his wife (or girlfriend) feel like the most desirable, beautiful woman in the world is going to do a lot better in his relationships than a man who doesn’t. I’ve been in love three times in my life. With each man, there was initial attraction and interest, but only after some time and getting to know them better, did I actually fall in love. After falling in love, they were (each at the time) the best looking man in the world, to me.

        Women need to feel desired in a romantic relationship otherwise it isn’t much different than other relationships. That’s one part (although a big one) of what makes romantic relationships special. It turns me on to know I turn my man on. If you tell your wife (or girlfriend) she’s cute but doesn’t stack up to …. Insert name here, you have just blown up that special part of your special relationship. So, men can and will do what they want. But, if they want good results and a very happy significant other, they will learn how to make her “feel like” the most beautiful woman in the world.

        PS – This is not lying. If you’re in love, you should “feel” this way about each other.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          “If you’re in love, you should “feel” this way about each other.”

          Bullshit. I could interview my ten best friends right now and not ONE of them thinks he’s married to the most beautiful woman he’s ever dated.

          These men aren’t settling on their wives. These women aren’t settling to be with men who feel this way. This is just REALITY. Why it’s so hard for people to accept is beyond me. I can assure you that these men are not constantly rubbing it in that they’ve been with hotter women and constantly see hotter women, because you’re right, that would be counterproductive. But let’s not be willfully blind here. Both men and women can be incredible spouses without having to deny reality. You speak only for yourself when you say that your guy is the “best looking man in the world” when you’re dating him.

          I don’t think I’m the best looking man my wife has ever been with, but you know what? I don’t fucking care. It’s silly, pointless and insecure to spend a half a second worrying about men she’s been with in the past, when we have a house, two kids, and 9 happy years under our belts.

          In other words, you don’t have to teach me about women. I’ve been in these trenches for thirteen years. And I can assure you that you would be better served carrying yourself with confidence and not worrying about petty crap like this than to waste an iota of energy on finding a man who either THINKS you’re the hottest woman he’s ever seen or SAYS you’re the hottest woman he’s ever seen. None of us is the hottest person anywhere and you have to be pretty delusional (or Top 1% hot) to think you are.

        2. Maya

          @KK I absolutely agree with you. THIS is so true:

          Women need to feel desired in a romantic relationship otherwise it isn’t much different than other relationships. That’s one part (although a big one) of what makes romantic relationships special. It turns me on to know I turn my man on. If you tell your wife (or girlfriend) she’s cute but doesn’t stack up to …. Insert name here, you have just blown up that special part of your special relationship.  

          If my man doesn’t find me absolutely smokin’ hot (and hopefully hotter than his hot ex), then what’s the difference between me and a good friend or roommate that my partner  has sex with? What separates romantic from platonic relationships is the passion. No passion = no romantic relationship. I’m not saying every woman in the world sees it  this way. A lot of us do, though.

          Also, I second what KK says about seeing the person you love as the most attractive person in the world. EVERY SINGLE time I’ve been in love, the guy in question objectively was  the hottest guy in the world to me. I genuinely didn’t WANT any other men, physically or otherwise. Some of my exes were objectively very hot men, and some of them weren’t, but to me they were all the hottest man alive to me while I loved them.


        3. Maya

          Also, @Evan, this:

          Bullshit. I could interview my ten best friends right now and not ONE of them thinks he’s married to the most beautiful woman he’s ever dated.
          These men aren’t settling on their wives. These women aren’t settling to be with men who feel this way. This is just REALITY.

          This just seemed so sad to me. I felt bad for the men and the women in these relationships. I’m not saying I have cause to or that they’re not completely happy. Maybe they all are. But I would not want to hear my man give you that answer if you polled him. I want to be with someone who is deeply and unabashedly passionate about me, and I just couldn’t imagine someone who truly feels that way about me giving that answer. If they did, I’d feel like they owed it to me to break up with me so I could find someone who does feel that way about me.

          If that’s reality…hey, maybe it works for other people, and good for them. But for me, I am not unhappy being single and casually dating. Not everyone is husband material; not everyone is the marrying kind. If the choice is “be single and fabulous” or “be married to a man who thinks you’re physically sub-par to his exes,” I pick “single and fabulous.”

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s not remotely sad, Maya. That is what you’re bringing to it.

          Imagine your partner insisting to you that you should think he is as hot as Channing Tatum, as brilliant as Steve Jobs, as well hung as John Holmes, or as funny as Louis CK.

          It’s ridiculous to think of a man asking you to validate ANY (much less all) of these absurd wishes. And yet, what you’re proposing is pretty much the same thing. Any man who asks you how he compares to the BEST of the BEST is insecure and asking you to LIE to him. Spin that however you like. I just call it insecurity – and any guy who did this would rightfully be laughed out of his own relationship.

        5. KK

          Maya, I have no idea where this is going to post but I’ll put it here and see what happens. Lol.

          I agree with everything you just said and I know for a fact we’re in good company with our mindset on this. My parents were happily married for over 45 years before my father passed and they truly never lost their physical attraction to one another. My dad frequently mentioned how beautiful my mom was and she would talk about how handsome he was. They would occasionally, playfully tease each other about attractive movie stars, etc. All in fun and good humor. My dad thought Sofia Vergara was hot stuff. But he would tell my mom, “Oh she has nothing on you!” Now, anyone can be an asshat and say really??? Your mom is in her late 60’s! Sofia Vegara??? But that is love. He loved and adored her and made her feel special and beautiful.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          1. I have physical attraction with my wife.
          2. I compliment her daily.
          3. I love her more than life itself.
          4. I think Sofia Vergara is more physically attractive than my wife.
          5. I don’t think I’d be more happily married to Sofia Vergara.
          6. My wife feels special and beautiful every single day.

          #4 doesn’t invalidate or even contradict any of the other ones. You following yet? Your Dad and I believe the SAME things.

          He just is more willing to commit to the obvious lie “Oh, she has nothing on you!”

          Glad we could find some common ground on this one.

        7. Karl S

          Part of being a good partner TO ME (maybe not to you and your wife, I dunno, I’m sure you’re both happy) is to make one’s partner FEEL like the most beautiful person on earth. If I truly feel that way in my relationship, I’ll never have to question my partner’s attraction to me.

          It seems like this debate doesn’t have a proper definition of terms going on here.

          What does it mean to make your partner FEEL like the most beautiful women on earth given that we can all seem to acknowledge that different things are going on in reality. Is it different to making your partner feel really safe in the relationship? Or feeling like you really get along? Or feeling like your partner really cares about you? Or is it all the same feeling by a different name?

          I think if we can nail that thing down we can start to move the debate forward because it’s a bit ephemeral right now.

          I can’t say I make a point of trying to make any of my partners feel like the *most beautiful women in the world* specifically. Maybe it’s a side effect of all the other things I do.

        8. Maya

          He just is more willing to commit to the obvious lie “Oh, she has nothing on you!”

          @Evan or maybe he isn’t lying? Because he loves her so much? That’s what we’re hoping is going on here. That’s what love does to some people’s brains.

          If you’re being suuuuper literal-minded about this, you ARE that asshat who refuses to say something nice to your wife because “OMG NO I MUST NOT TELL A LIE!!”

          If you’re really in love with her (many ladies think), you look at her and see the face of the woman who pledged her life to you, and bore your children, and nursed you when you were sick, and supported you when you were suffering, and made you laugh when you were down, and built a life with you, and said to yourself, “SHE is the most beautiful woman in the world to me, wrinkles be damned.” And then you tell  her she is  more beautiful than Sofia Vergara, because to you, she IS.

          Or, you know, you could say, “No, my sixty-year-old wife does not have the waist-to-hip ratio and the facial symmetry and the supple skin of youth, so clearly, I must be HONEST and tell her that Sofia Vergara is beautiful and she is not, because that is the Objective Truth.”

        9. Maya

          @Karl I have no idea where this post will wind up but I’m just typing it here. You said:

          What does it mean to make your partner  FEEL like the most beautiful women on earth  given that we can all seem to acknowledge that different things are going on in reality. Is it different to making your partner feel really safe in the relationship? Or feeling like you really get along? Or feeling like your partner really cares about you? Or is it all the same feeling by a different name?

          That would probably be different for different people. For me, it would look like this (and I can only speak for myself). My partner flirts with me. My partner compliments my looks to the moon in a way that’s sincere and believable and specific. My partner touches me whenever he gets the chance. My partner wants sex with me a lot. My partner kisses me passionately even when the time isn’t right to have sex. My partner spends time with me and takes an interest in my life and interests. My partner takes me out on dates. My partner never, ever, ever, not one single time, compares me unfavorably to another woman–not someone he dated, not someone he knows in passing, not someone he saw walking down the street, and not even a celebrity. Not even if I ask directly (which I agree nobody should do, but if I did anyway).

          It goes both ways. These are all things I’ve done or strived to do in all my relationships and with people I was really into, it wasn’t hard. It was a joy. I don’t think it’s wrong to hold out for someone who treats me  that way. It’s just baseline what I’d need to be really happy.

      3. 16.2.3

        That’s fine, Evan, but if you pride yourself on understanding women, you’re not even listening to the women on here that are telling you something in opposition to your beliefs.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          You’re missing the point, KK.

          1. This isn’t about my “beliefs.” One “believes” in God, which is very different than “believing” that, say, I have two arms. So when I point out that pretty much every man I know finds other women more attractive than his wife, it’s not MY job to understand that you don’t like this. I KNOW you don’t like this. It’s YOUR job to understand that this is REALITY – and reality exists regardless of how you or I feel about it.

          2. Usually the women who argue with me the most are the ones who DON’T LIKE REALITY. “He shouldn’t want to kiss me before I’m ready. He shouldn’t have sex if he has no interest in me. He shouldn’t date me for a year if he doesn’t want to get married. He shouldn’t act like he’s emotionally available if he’s not. He shouldn’t find any other women more attractive than me, and if he does, he certainly shouldn’t ever ADMIT it.” This is FANTASYLAND, KK.

          3. So here I am telling you – without judgment, without even my “opinion” that, yes, there are TONS of happily married men who find exes, neighbors, celebrities, models, porn stars, Instagram models, and even some of your friends more physically attractive than you. That is a FACT, not an opinion. You can argue with me, yell at me for not listening, try to shame me or embarrass me, but you know what? It doesn’t change reality. So what’s your end game? To convince me that men SHOULD find their wives more attractive than anyone on the planet? And suggest that if they don’t, there’s a problem with them or their marriage? Well, sorry, but you’re not going to be able to pull that off, because it’s not true. I’m speaking on behalf of just about all the married men I know. Or are you trying to suggest that men need to acknowledge your irrational insecurities? That if I (and all men) listened to your horror that we think other women are hotter that… what, exactly? We would no longer find professional models more attractive than you? I really don’t understand your point. All I hear is someone telling me that I need to understand you better (I do understand you. I’ve been listening to women complain about men since 2003. I get it. You’re upset at reality.) and someone telling me that my observation about reality is a “belief” (when, in fact, it’s not a belief. It’s something that can be easily proven, if only by the MASSIVE amounts of porn and Instagram photos enjoyed by men in relationships.)

          This feels to me like a climate change debate with those in certain conservative circles. There are TONS of evidence that point to climate change, but because some folks don’t WANT it to be true, they obfuscate, attack, bluster, and change the argument. There are TONS of evidence that suggest that everything you read on this blog has NOTHING to do with my opinions. Women complain about men. I write, “Yep, that’s men for ya.” and I get yelled at for acknowledging what the OP already pointed out. As if, by having sympathy for your insecurity, I could change an entire gender. I can’t. My advice is always the same: accept him as he is or find another guy. If you can’t find one guy you can fully accept, you can remain single forever. You’ll be able to get along with more men if you don’t make a big deal about things like height, or advanced degrees, or white hot chemistry, or him being friendly with exes, or kissing on the first date, or looking at porn, or acknowledging that there are other attractive women on the planet (in a certain context). If you turn away EVERY guy who does these very normal things, you have a small pool of men to choose from – and you’re making the false assumption that if a man does any of these things that he’s somehow a bad guy, which he’s not.

          I am a highly moral, ethical, thoughtful, sensitive, happily married man who ticks off all of those boxes. I’m not the only one.

          This blog exists to let you know how men like me think. It does not exist to convince men like me that we should no longer be who we are.

        2. KK

          Evan, you said, “You can argue with me, yell at me for not listening, try to shame me or embarrass me, but you know what? …..”

          Evan, I didn’t do any of those things. I agree with the majority of what you say on here. I enjoy reading here. I enjoy your perspective. I just don’t agree with this. You can say I live in fantasyland and that is fine. I guess my serious relationships would be fantasyland to you because the men I loved made me “feel” like I was the most beautiful, amazing woman to them as well. That’s what women want.

          You’ve said many times that everything isn’t black or white. Why isn’t this one of those things? What works for some, doesn’t work for others. No big deal. It takes a lot for me to be interested in anyone seriously, so I don’t feel I’m shrinking my available pool of men. I’m already fishing from a small pool. I’m okay with that. I’m not complaining.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          My only point, KK, is that there’s nothing to agree/disagree with.

          You and I don’t have to agree that 2+2=4. It just does.

          I’m telling you something that is not remotely surprising to me or anyone who has actually talked to men about this subject. You’re telling me that you don’t like it and would rather hold out for the rare guy who thinks you’re the most beautiful woman he’s ever seen. Okay by me. Wish you the best of luck. Lid for every pot and all that.

          But to be 100% clear: this isn’t a matter of me being “right.” This is a matter of you shooting the messenger because you don’t like the message. And, more on point: You are shrinking your available pool of men for a poor reason – one that has nothing to do with character, kindness, commitment, consistency or communication. You’re eliminating men for having seen/dated hotter women. That, to me, seems like an “ineffective” choice in the already challenging search for love. Guess we’ll leave it at that.

        4. Maya

          @Evan, I’m sorry, I had to laugh at this:

          there are TONS of happily married men who find exes, neighbors, celebrities, models, porn stars, Instagram models, and even some of your friends more physically attractive than you.

          My thought was, “wow, if my husband finds me such a hideous hose beast that he’s literally tripping over neighbors, exes, and MY FRIENDS who are way hotter than me, why on earth is he with me??” I mean, sure, I might have a great personality and all, but surely physical attraction is still important too! Har.

          To be honest, I think you’re being really literal-minded about this issue.

          I’m trying to explain that for me, this issue is way more complicated than whether my man thinks I’m “objectively” (there is no such thing as “objective” judgments of looks, even though “science” keeps trying to make it an objective thing about waist-to-height ratios and facial symmetry and fertility, etc. etc., but we’ll just say “objectively” here like it means something) hotter than Halle Berry or Selena Gomez or whoever.

          That “am I hotter than so-and-so?” question is more about “am I still your Top Choice? Do I still have worth to you, the person whose opinion matters most to me, in a world that makes me feel like dog crap about my looks (while simultaneously pounding it into my head that my looks are literally ALL that matters about me?)”

          We all know that celebrities are hotter than us, geez. We all know that. We aren’t stupid. It’s their JOB to be hotter than us. They get paid millions of dollars to be hotter than us. (Lucky us.)

          On the other hand, I would find it way more problematic if my husband was constantly popping boners over my sister, my best friend, random neighbors, the girl who works at the 7-Eleven, etc. etc. If pretty much every other  woman he ever interacts with is not just attractive but MORE attractive than me to him, I am probably physically just not his type. That might not matter to some women. To me, it really would.

          And yeah, there are always people who are hotter, no matter how hot you are. I am well aware of that. Do I occasionally see a man who is “objectively” (whatever that means) hotter than my husband? Do I think Bradley Cooper is hotter than my husband? Sure, I guess. Does he occasionally have those thoughts too? (And really, occasionally; not about ALL the neighbors and exes and other randos on the street), probably, yeah.

          But those are private thoughts that don’t belong in a relationship. Part of being a good partner TO ME (maybe not to you and your wife, I dunno, I’m sure you’re both happy) is to make one’s partner FEEL like the most beautiful person on earth. If I truly feel that way in my relationship, I’ll never have to question my partner’s attraction to me.

          So yeah. I guess my issue here is that maybe it’s true that a lot of guys will marry women they’re not wildly attracted to when they decide it’s time to marry. Maybe some women don’t mind and even do the same thing. Personally, I dread falling in love and later finding out I’m one of those women, someone who’s been settled for in a physical sense. I want to be my partner’s  dream girl. And I’m no Angelina Jolie, but I’d like to think I’m attractive enough that that’s not a completely unrealistic hope.

          I have no intention of shaming you, or yelling at you, or disrespecting you. People can have differing opinions and that’s fine. This isn’t a comment on your intelligence or expertise or relationship or anything else. I’m just saying that I really couldn’t imagine mustering the enthusiasm to look for a long-term relationship if a guy who finds a ton of other women (regular women, no less; not just supermodels and porn stars)   hotter than me on a daily basis is the best I can hope for. Or that I should “settle” for someone who doesn’t have the emotional intelligence or judgment to understand the question behind the question of “Am I hotter?” That I should just accept that no man  is capable of that level of intelligence,  and not expect more from my partner.

          If that’s reality, I’ll pass. But I’ve met plenty of men who were capable of making me feel incredibly beautiful (even though I’m sure they had secret crushes on various movie stars and whatnot) and I’m holding out hope I’ll meet at least one more of those before I die.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Thankfully, there is wide ground between “Halle Berry is hotter than you” and “You are a hideous hose beast.” I have never even insinuated that the latter was even a viable option, which is why I’m surprised you’ve spent so many words suggesting that I have.

          As you have already pointed out, ALL I said is that Halle Berry is hotter than you. You know it. I know it. Your husband knows it. So why pretend otherwise? And yes, there are LOTS of women hotter than you, yet your husband chose YOU. That should be all the answer you need as to whether he’s sufficiently attracted to you. You are not his “dream girl”. You are his “reality girl,” which is so much better, because it’s, you know, real.

        6. KK

          I totally “get” it. You are very literal. But how can you say he is lying by saying what he said? To HIM (and him alone!) my mom is more beautiful. To HIM. Because he LOVES her.

          I think Channing Tatum is hot. Subjectively, objectively, and otherwise. Lol. If I’m in love with someone, I’m not drooling over Channing Tatum or fantasizing about him or anyone else.

          Maybe you’re different. You can honestly say that Sofia Vergara or whoever else is more beautiful than your wife. That’s fine. It isn’t wrong. Just different.

        7. Maya

          @Evan–actually, this is what you said:

          there are TONS of happily married men who find    find exes, neighbors, celebrities, models, porn stars, Instagram models, and even some of your friends more physically attractive than you.  

          Just Halle Berry is one thing. (Although, really, if a guy said “Hey, you’re not as good looking as Halle Berry!” to me…why? Why say that?  Is that necessary??”). But once you get into “exes, neighbors, some of your friends…” Um, yeah. That is “I think my wife is a hose beast” territory.

          And if that’s not what the guy thinks, that is surely how the wife would feel if she found out he thought SO MANY non-celebrity other women were hotter than her. Or at least I would.

    3. 16.3

      Hi Maya,

      I got to thinking about your remarks and wondered if you’ve ever read the love languages book? Some may think it not instructional but I did. I found my love language was quality time. In other words what makes me feel loved is spending quality time where I have your attention . I thought maybe yours was words of affirmation.




  17. 17
    Karl S

    “It’s about knowing that if I ever do get insecure (as everyone does) and ask some ill-advised question about whether I’m hotter than a Victoria’s Secret model, my partner will be kind enough to say, “you’re the hottest woman in the world to ME.” It’s about that same partner maybe intuiting that the gorgeous woman in the magazine or in the movie might be making me feel insecure (because Patriarchy, because Media, because all kinds of reasons that even the strongest-minded woman may be able to fend off most of the time, but we all have our insecure moments)—and, instead of offering me what he sees as the “objective” truth, knowing I need to feel deeply desired by him, in that moment, rather than judged against someone else and found wanting.”

    I can totally understand that and yes, we all get vulnerable at times and say funny things to try and communicate our insecurities and get some get reassurance. I think the best thing an intuitive guy could do in that instance though would be to check in on how you were feeling and give you a more meaningful response rather than use hyperbole. It’s even better still to avoid asking loaded questions though if we can help it (and I’m not saying I don’t accidentally sometimes).

    I remember once I was talking with a former girlfriend and trying to communicate a peculiar feeling I had about how one never really stops loving all their former partners. I was trying to explain it as more of a whimsical mourning for a closed chapter of your life. Like nostalgia. She took it the wrong way (perhaps I explained it badly) and asked – if one of my exes walked in right now and wanted for me back, would I’d take them? It was a loaded question and I balked.
    I told my current girlfriend the same story and she was merely curious. She could even relate to it. Any time she’s felt insecure about how we’re going she simply asks me how I’m feeling. I don’t get loaded questions.

    1. 17.1
      Karl S

      I think I actually misused the term “loaded question” there (bugger). But you hopefully know what I mean.   Question with an expected answer.

  18. 18
    Karl S

    What we have is an interesting contradiction (and I’m still off topic, but I want to follow this thought). People are understandably frustrated by numbering looks. Not because of the number per se, but because it’s on a single scale. Suddenly you’re comparing apples to apples. Scientific inquiries into standards of beauty aside, it seems much nicer that people can be attractive in entirely different, incomparable ways. A number is a solid summation, creating a hierarchy that goes against that. It opens up the idea that you can be “less than” somebody else.

    However, people also express that they want to be thought of as “more than” or “the most” with regard to perceived beauty from their partners. It sounds nice, but it’s actually just the other side of the same negative coin. You’re still inviting comparisons. At the heart of any kind of question like “Am I better looking than x person” is a deeper question of self worth. Truly secure people gain their self worth from within. They don’t compare. Needing an occasional boost of ego from an outside source is a very common temptation (that I myself am often guilty of), but it also leads to unfair demands placed upon those around us when we ask such questions. It shifts our personal boundaries onto them and becomes “needy”.

  19. 19

      At the heart of any kind of question like “Am I better looking than x person” is a deeper question of self worth.  

    I think that’s absolutely true and very wise. It’s about more than “Tell me that my waist-to-hip ratio is more objectively pleasing than Jennifer Aniston’s. Tell me that my face is more symmetrical than Halle Berry’s. Tell me that my beauty has won more modeling contracts than Cara Delevigne.”

    Truly secure people gain their self worth from within. They don’t compare. Needing an occasional boost of ego from an outside source is a very common temptation (that I myself am often guilty of), but it also leads to unfair demands placed upon those around us.

    I also agree with this. You’re really putting your partner on the spot when you ask a loaded question like “Am I hotter than all your exes?” You’re asking them to do a really careful dance, unless their answer is honestly a yes. I agree that it’s not the ideal scenario and of course, in a perfect world, we’d all be so secure that we would never feel the urge to ask our partners that.

    I will also say, however, that this kind of insecurity doesn’t occur in a vacuum. I have been in relationships where I’ve felt really insecure and also in relationships where I felt completely secure. It was all about how that person treated me and made me feel beautiful every day. With guys who were good at that, I never had the urge to ask those questions.

    I don’t recall ever asking the ex  question specifically, but I definitely had tons of insecure thoughts around whether my partners found me attractive if they did and said things that tore me down in that area.


  20. 20

    Back to the original discussion: Of course tall men will get laid more if all else is equal. If a woman had the option of choosing between two men and they were perceived as equal on all levels, most women would choose the taller of the two. Luckily for shorter men, all is rarely equal.

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