Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

As you may know, I’m really big on statistics, metrics, heuristics, anything data-driven that is going to bring objectivity to something as subjective and emotional as dating.

I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.

Or that 95% of the country practices premarital sex.

Or that only 14% of men are over 6 feet tall.

And 5% makes over 100k.

Numbers put reality into perspective, and, from there, we can make healthy and informed decisions about love.

Nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women.

But nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women. We’ve touched on it in many forms before. Why older men want younger women. Why older women want younger men. How many emails men and women get on dating sites. The availability and merits of 7s vs. 10s. Lori Gottlieb’s seminal book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling For Mr. Good Enough” is pretty much a meditation on this very subject. Gottlieb discovered that while she was in her early 30’s, passing up on the 7’s and holding out for a 10, by the time she reached her late 30’s, the 10’s were only interested in women in their early 30’s. Furthermore, the quality of the men available to her as a 39-year-old who wanted her own biological children was closer to a 5 (in her mind). Yes, I know these numbers are gauche, but we’re trying to establish a pattern. Not based on our feelings about how things should be or what would be right and just and fair. But simply by observing the behaviors and desires of men and women.

Enter Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart. I haven’t met Ms. Walsh, but I feel like we’re probably kindred spirits, because she decided to post this long, wonky post with a number of charts and graphs.

The premise of her post was to establish which gender, if any, had greater sexual market value – which is to say, more enduring appeal to the opposite sex over time. The term market value seems crude, but it’s the best possible term because, like economic market forces of supply and demand, these are completely self-regulating. If a man thinks he can date a 10, but no 10’s want him, then, evidently, he’s overestimated his sexual market value. If a woman dates online and thinks she can date a man 10 years younger because she “looks good for her age”, but no men 10 years younger give her the time of day (apart from requests for NSA sex), then, well, she, too, has overestimated her sexual market value. Essentially, whether you’re a 3 or a 10 is not really your decision. The market will tell you what you can command. Just as it does with your own salary. Anyone who holds out for a 500K salary but finds that no one is willing to pay it will remain unemployed for a really, really long time. Anyway, back to the original premise:

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

I think we can also agree that, for whatever reason, older men seem have more dating options than older women. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more 50-60-year-old men dating 5-10 years younger than women dating men 5-10 years younger.

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

Based on this, there is a perception that men have greater sexual market value than women. This opinion is particularly espoused by hardcore men’s groups, because it’s an appealing narrative. They say something to the effect of: “American women are way too picky, way too masculine, way too selfish. But due to biology, I can be that 45-year-old guy who is hooking up with 27-year-old women while 45-year-old women turn into angry spinsters.” These are not my sentiments, but we do see them occasionally expressed in the comments section below, usually by dorky guys without much game who play the “biology” card early and often. Enter Susan Walsh. Using data from 200,000 people on OkCupid, Walsh takes on these men who overestimate their appeal to younger women and gives them a good old-fashioned scientific smackdown, concluding:

Mean male sexual value over 30 year period: 40.0

Mean female sexual value over 30 year period: 39.9

By this unbiased calculation of actual data, the male and female of the species exhibit the same sexual market value.

The OKCupid chart has good, reliable information for both sexes. Women need to understand that the male curve lags the female curve by about five years, is flatter and a little wider. That means you’ll have more competition from younger women as you age. You will never be hotter than you are at 22, so plan accordingly.

It’s important to recognize that some men display a motive for artificially elevating the SMV of aging males, so ignore any wisdom characterized as “red pill.”

In my own coaching materials, I always suggested that a woman’s peak was 27-30 in terms of her desirability to the most men, and that a man’s peak was 35-39. I’m going to stick with that premise, since I think OkCupid’s data skews young. In other words, while a 22-year-old may be hot, most 41-year-old quality men would never actually date or marry one. So to all of the readers in my core demographic: 35-55, have no fear. As long as most 22-year-olds are creeped out by 40-year-old guys, there are no shortage of men out there for you.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (310 Comments).
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Comments:

  1. 1
    Andrea

    Insightful post, Evan. I found it interesting that you are not a red pill supporter which is refreshing to a degree. A lot of the ‘manosphere’ is an advocate for the red pill including those commenting on Hooking Up Smart. Other well established advocates are Just For Guys, Married Man Sex Life, Dalrock just to name a few. What are your thoughts on the increasing red pill trend?

    1. 1.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m far from an expert on the “manosphere”, Andrea. But my perception of it is that while the concept of “red pill” wisdom is to teach reality, in practice, some of these guys are just bitter misogynists who disdain American women. What they have correct is that it is much more effective to lead with feminine energy than masculine energy in romantic relationships. Too bad that it’s hard to pay attention to the bigger message when they’re spewing such hatred. The only time I’ve ever been called a “mangina” was courtesy of a “red pill” blog, and that’s because I’m sympathetic to women and tell them to have more respect than to go out with men who treat them poorly.

      1. 1.1.1
        Andrea

        Calling you or anyone with petty names is stupid.
        Interesting to read your observations, Evan! I’ve noticed some disdain as well. As it turns out, some of these men stem from broken marriages which seems to have impacted their perceptions of women greatly. To be honest though I’ve noticed most contempt is geared towards modern feminism and against the recent raunchy culture (ex. Miley Cyrus).

      2. 1.1.2
        Frank

        I’m gonna have to look up “Red Pill”… OK all I got was a bunch of references to the Matrix…but I get the whole misogynist thing, totaly opposed to it, I have 5 sisters and a daughter, been around Women my whole life. And yes women STILL are a total mystery.  At 6’5” 255lbs no one would ever accuse me of being a “Mangina” (at least not to my face, LOL!) And I speak 6 languages and have traveled more than most would dream…
        But let me make my Point (tongue in cheek)… I agree with the Feminists (I love them). What I have heartburn about and with is the Feminazi. A Feminist wants equality, fair treatment and respect. But they haven’t forgotten that “fēmina” means “woman” in latin in other words, they haven’t forgotten how to be a woman and be proud of that fact. 
        Unfortunately all the male sees is a Feminazi who yelled at him because he opened or held a door for her. And if he is a heterosexual male who even remotely (i say remotely because the media, pop-culture and new legislatures have been trying to kill us off or the gene for years) posses the “Alfa” gene (and he’s not as enlightened as I am to distinguish between the 2 camps) another male is on the path to becoming  a full fledged misogynist . And what does this misogynist do?  He gives up on American women, gets his Butt on a plane and flies to some country where he can find a woman who won’t be upset with him if he acts like a gentleman. But this action of course upsets American women. 
        Unfortunately he is either so far gone that he’s hard core misogynist. Or he’s borderline and after he brings her back she makes friends and he can’t handle it and goes hard core…  
        viscous circle… and no answer to end it. But my training doesn’t allow me to Gripe w/out offering SOME solution so I propose that 1ce a week all people (eh eh almost said men, there are a few women doing these jobs) all people working Manly Man jobs (your mechanics, constructors, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines) SWITCH with all the people working other jobs (your Day Care workers,  Nannies, Airmen and Cost Guards)  That way everyone gets a greater respect and understanding of everyone else’s position.  And one day a week can’t possibly cause un-reparable damage. 
        The list of jobs above was not in any way all encompassing nor was it meant to single any profession out it was however intended as a quasi satirical JOKE aimed at illustrating that PEOPLE choose their professions out of desire, want, necessity, and no choice. But they are chosen and we all play our rolls and we need to respect the “bit actors ” the “niche actors”, “extras” and “main actors” we all have our rolls to play, and we a ll need to realize this and respect everyone regardless of the roll. 
        Bottom line… No Woman or Man for that matter should be with someone who treats them poorly. 

        1. RustyLH

          Frank, this seems like a very thoughtful, fair post, and so, I am very surprised that it hasn’t received one reply.

        2. Jennifer

          I think your comment is insightful. I believe too that feminist was about equality of education, job availability and pay and decision making. Not about a woman acting like a man or being treated like a man as we should embrace femininity and being a woman. And I believe in men being at least a little the alpha male. Men are meant to be the physically stronger of the sex. And I for one love this 

        3. PUA Power

          Frank – your definition of a mangina is not the same as the one in hook up culture. A mangina to us is a person that white-knights and goes around putting women on a pedestal.

          You say you are not a mangina because you have traveled the world and speak a lot of languages… however so does my gardener and that guy probably hasn’t been laid since he swam across the boarder. 

          Your other claim to not being a mangina is that you shop at the big and tall store, I have met a whole bunch of large manginas. These are usually the pitiful “best friend” that hangs around some girl I’m  sleeping with because he just knows that one day she will see what a great guy he is, so he plays the knight in shinning armor role, while I treat her like dirt and bang her raw on her kitchen table at 3am and only call her when I am drunk and my main side piece isn’t answering.

          Frank you need to man up and grow up. All a “feminazi” really wants is  to be treated like a dirty whore. That is all any women want. Women respond to raw power and unabashed charisma. That is why their panties fly off around wild guys that treat them like crap.

          Don’t believe me? Dress up like a pirate this week and go to a night club, walk up to the hottest girl in the place and tell her “Hey wench! If you weren’t so fat, I’d put my pirate sword in your booty.” Go ahead, thank me next week — I just got you laid.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          Honestly, any guy who uses terms like “Feminizm” (The z to indicate a correlation with Nazis), misspells psychopathic and megalomaniacal (and useful and civilization), invokes a “Brave New World” agenda, and says he has a mind to match his brawn, well, I’ll let our readers draw their own conclusions. You sound more like a lost conspiracy theorist who is trolling the wrong site. This is for women who want to understand men and make healthy relationship choices. Your rant doesn’t seem to aid them in doing so – unless you’re trying to illustrate what to avoid.

        5. Persephone

          I am like you, Frank. I had to look up “red pill” also. I was a big fan off Matrix, and understand the origin of the reference, but not as it related to male cyberculture.  Other terms I had to look up, all which seem to have originated with misogynist online culture and seem gross to me are

          Manosphere;

          Black Pill;

          Mangina; and last but not least…..

          Sexual Market Value.

          You said it well, and you summed this whole thing up when you said your last comment:  No Woman or Man for that matter should be with someone who treats them poorly. 

           

        6. Persephone

          Evan in case readers are not aware, this “PUA power” fella is invoking the  name of a group designated as a Hate Group by the SPLC.  It is called PUA, with a discussion forum connected to Elliot Rodgers and male supremacy.  Sadly this particular message board is not shut down yet.  Give it time.

      3. 1.1.3
        Red

        Hi, Evan, I’m the new girl.

        The guys in the manosphere are very straightforward. They say things like “Mangina” sometimes (although, I’m not sure who called you that) and that’s just how it rolls. We’re probably just different people, because I didn’t find being called names offensive. I also think that most people on there aren’t going to be name-calling (with the exception of standard internet protocol).

        I like that you go there, and there’s very little flattery and fake niceness. I like the general message of not waiting around for the weather to change. It’s very “seize the day.”

        I’ll say that value hyperinflation is equal in both sexes (based on a study that I read somewhere but don’t want to look up; both men and women think they’re two points hotter than they are, and can date two points even hotter). In the manosphere, however, this gets overlooked in terms of the men. As a woman, however, I get a lot of helpful information.

        The manosphere generally advocates acting more masculine to get women, not “leading with feminine energy.” There’s a reason that men have masculine energy, and wouldn’t ya know it, women like it. 

        There are a lot of really cool guys (and gals) on there. Not all of them are warm, but they’re generally honest and pretty open-minded.  

        Finally, no need for the generalization: this blog technically belongs to the manosphere, whether or not you like it. As do other blogs that you’d probably like better than the ones you’ve read. 🙂

        1. elle

          Manosphere sounds like a gay club.  No disrespect to gays intended at all, but it just sounds like something RuPaul came up with.

      4. 1.1.4
        Mandar Sane

        i am a single male of marrying age. i tend to listen as critically as i can and think for myself. in my view, the preference for feminine energy over masculine energy is not wise. all such a statement does is pander to women. i’ve noticed that the guys with “red pill” advice speak quite a lot of truth about women. i wouldn’t believe it if not for the growing number of women who support what these men have to say about women as a class. men want to fell valued just for being men. instead women value us as utilities to meet their own needs while ignoring ours. basically, a lot of the guys who fall into the “red pill”, MGTOW camp feel used. they feel like women have become unreasonable. a lot of people like to put the focus on these mens’ bitterness or lack of trust. but rather than doing that, maybe we should look at why they feel that way. and if SO many men do in fact feel that way, maybe it is a problem with women, rather than one with men. people don’t just wake up one day and feel angry and abused and whatnot. and it’s kind of foolish to say that it’s entirely their fault that they are that way. it takes two to tango after all. and when something as simple as asking a woman to pay for herself on a first date is met with shaming tactics and judgment as to a man’s ability to provide, etc. without holding the woman accountable at all……it sends the message that what men want simply doesn’t matter. self respecting men don’t put up with that. they don’t just pander to women because women say so. they make their own demands which they feel are reasonable. and if they aren’t met, they do their own thing. that doesn’t make them misogynists. anger is a perfectly rational and healthy response to being mistreated. why do we look at men to blame for womens’ problems…..but blame men too for mens’ problems? it’s wrong. calling them bitter misogynists only deflects responsibility from how some women behave. in fact, how quite a lot of women behave. because they can. because nobody holds them accountable for it. the vast majority of women are far more misogynistic towards one another than men could ever be towards women. women know this. it’s why women as a class are very self loathing creatures. so there’s no need to pass the blame onto men. look at yourselves. consider what you’re doing wrong. treat men with kindness, respect, and don’t consider yourself special simply because you are a woman. that doesn’t fly any more. take it easy. 

        1. Tim

          Bravo, this is a great, rational post.

      5. 1.1.5
        matt

        You are obviously just trying to get laid by making th0se statements. MGTOW at its core has got nothing to do with hating women. (Even though there are some bitter mysogenists making comments on its sites) We love women. MGTOW is about educating men on how not to be deceived by the system and by women that take advantage of the system. The simple fact remains that marriage is an outdated, useless enterprise to get involved in and guys are just reverting back to their simplistic, archaic role as a man, which evidently most women seem to crave. So we still want and have intimate connection with women but refuse to commit to an unjust system. I’m so glad that men are waking up and going back to simply being men again. Looking forward to the day when women start reverting back to simply being women again.

      6. 1.1.6
        MickeyMoose

        The red pill males are like that because they’ve been exposed to the harsher aspects of female rejection, lies and manipulation. They’ve been curdled into this state by horrible people around them, whether it be the females they sought or their family members. More often than not these are unattractive males. The issue with MTGOW isn’t that they’re responding to rejection, they are responding to the outright arrogance of American style females. It’s the rejection yes but with the added scorn and disgust the Western female layers on top of it that feels like a harsh chemical peel on your soul. Most of the males have probably endured the cold hearted maniacal rejections that American Women have become world renown for. These males probably aren’t able to develop male social circle circles on their own because they don’t have attributes that other males might hope to exploit in order to get women in their vicinity (due to a lack of looks). Many of these males accept these compromises in time and are willing to invest in themselves and the community for the chance to get sex, which in all other normally operating countries would be the correct stance… but the outright lack of civility in the American female makes the slow rise in status nearly unbearable.

        The American female is now an overpriced, chiding, demanding monster who attempts to shame men who try to rise above their sexual station in life. In addition to that the adult social sphere has been feminized with paranoia and fear so that meeting strangers at a bar or in public has become stigmatized. Women used to have to go to bars in the hopes of attracting a male in the 60’s. Now women go to bars to celebrate having a job (that used to be a man’s) and reject all but the male models. Look at a females wrong and you’re tossed out. In addition to that the women you would never consider in a million years, usually infertile or unappealing in some dramatic way, are the only ones sending out winks rather than threatening gazes. When did all the fertile women become ice queens? It is not this way in other countries. Not even the women in non-english speaking Anglo countries are this harsh and dismissive to their males. When I went to the Netherlands I couldn’t believe it but even the presence of the females there was more soft and inviting than most of the women I meet in the USA.  Additionally I believe that the Red Pill anger and fear of divorce wouldn’t be as extreme if rejection wasn’t so prevalent a characteristic in the American female. After all the loss of money from divorce is really just a loss of status for the male which is interpreted as a loss of sexual opportunity with normal weight, young, high class women. American females are so ready to pounce on an unwanted suitor that the fear of divorce is justifiable.

        I think a lot has to do with the American fixation on television and anything goes lifestyle. How do average males compete in a world of cliques, eye rolls and ‘whatevahs.’ The males completely understand the timetables of human biology and know when they should be getting sex from women like men in other nations. But American women are so completely blind by their arrogance that they continue their petulant nonsense throughout their 30s!

      7. 1.1.7
        Aurora Glamoura

        You claim to be sympathetic to women by telling them that they become more worthless when they get older and thaten become more valuable when they get older. Hahahahaha okie dokie then bye now.

    2. 1.2
      Billythekid

       
      This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH.  And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male. 
      One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to.  I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches.  She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men.  On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all.  Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
       
      This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection.  Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry.  I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality.  No.  The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height.   Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
       
      I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”.  (I am 5’8”)  And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog.  No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking.  These women were past their prime and worried.   I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years.   It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did.  When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife.  I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age.  Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them.  I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day.  And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them.  I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women.  Why go old, when I could go young?  I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor.  And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
       
      I am now married and have 4 sons.  I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents.  I could have provided a good life to any girl.  I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance.  I was turned down consistently and without a second thought.  (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination)  So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself.  There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity.  (This also applies to average height women, too)  And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late.  You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate.  There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones.  So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them.  I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship.  Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
       
      By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
       
                    http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
       
      This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s.  He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
       
       
       
       
       

      1. 1.2.1
        SparklingEmerald

        So what you are saying that it’s OK for women to reject men based on baldness, but not height.  And it’s ok for young men to reject girls because they aren’t leggy enough or have a tapered enough waist.

        Perhaps if you didn’t spend your youth chasing after leggy women with a perfect hour glass figure, you could have found love sooner.

        I’m not saying that men should date women who are morbidly obese or who just have an “unfortunate face” that they don’t find attractive at all, but I just don’t get men who are bitter that they couldn’t land a “9” or a “10” in looks, but get angry at women who tried to land a similarly handsome man.

        While you were seething and raging that women rejected you because of your height, you were most likely over looking girls who weren’t over weight, but had short legs, or women who were a bit thick waisted, but not necessarily over weight, or women with merely average looks, or who were “averagely cute” but not drop dead gorgeous.

        There was an OKC cupid study that showed that men rated women “fairly” on a scale of 1-10, but ONLY messaged women who rated 9 or 10 in looks.  So even a woman who is rated a 7 or 8 isn’t good enough for many men (and 7 or 8 is by no means ugly), but then they complain if women reject them based on their looks.(or height)

        Many women hit age 30, and never married, not because they rejected average looking, or short guys, but because they themselves were only average looking or perhaps merely slightly cute, and men rejected them to chase after the “9”s and the “10”s.  Even the average looking men.

        1. Billythekid

           
          Dear Sparkling
           
          Maybe you should read more and write less.  You write this, “So what you are saying that it’s OK for women to reject men based on baldness, but not height.  And it’s ok for young men to reject girls because they aren’t leggy enough or have a tapered enough waist.” 
           
          You write again,” I just don’t get men who are bitter that they couldn’t land a “9” or a “10” in looks, but get angry at women who tried to land a similarly handsome man.  While you were seething and raging that women rejected you because of your height, you were most likely overlooking girls who weren’t over weight, but had short legs, or women who were a bit thick waisted, but not necessarily over weight, or women with merely average looks, or who were “averagely cute” but not drop dead gorgeous. 
           
          My statements,
           
          ” Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.”  I dated one girl for 3½ years, so I was in a long term relationship.  How does that figure into your assessment of me?
           
          “No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking.
           
          “I am now married and have 4 sons.  I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents.” 
           
          Do you see anger in my writing?  You anger is in your writing.
           

        2. Daxos

          Women aren’t looking for the same qualities in men that men are in women. Women consider handsome men based off his ability to provide, his utility and his potential to sustain her lifestyle. At least we are attentive to qualities endogenous to women and not exogenous. Women are superficial, selfish, avaricious and evil. We can throw around terms like misogyny simply because a red piller can see marriage as a bad deal that unilaterally benefits one gender. I never hear anyone utter misandry? Perhaps its considered blasphemy and profane to point out that women are entitled and have never been expected to die and fight to simply be congruent with societal standards, his compatriots and his own identity.

  2. 2
    Jackie

    Evan I’m only 23 but I’m learning to accept the cold hard truth.
    If this wasn’t true you (or any of the other really solid L.A. based dating coaches) wouldn’t have a lucrative job.
     

  3. 3
    Jenna

    This is funny on multiple levels. I’m 29 and creeped out by most guys who are 35-39 for a long term relationship – what peak sexual market value? I’d put men’s more at 29-34. Also, I haven’t seen any negative difference in the quality and/or number of men I attract compared to when I was 22. I look young, dress well, have a much more active social life and more friends and interests than when I was younger, and as I’ve gotten older become much more confident and emotionally mature, so I feel pretty good about dating. I don’t see younger women having any advantage over me at this point – a lot of them are insecure, unstable, lack confidence and communication skills, and aren’t a realistic choice for a quality, commitment minded guy in his early 30s. Your beliefs say a lot about the kind of relationship you’re going to attract, so don’t succumb to a fear-based mentality.

    1. 3.1
      bronson

      So at 29 you find a 40 year old guy to be to old?
      I am 40 and my Ex is 29 we were happy for years.
      So you are saying I am old and unattractive because I am 40?

      1. 3.1.1
        tamara

        Everyone thinks differently and u just can’t take it personally. I’m 26 and recently dated a man 20 years older, I think he’s the hottest guy I’ve ever dated. Of course it doesn’t mean every guy in his late 40s is super-sexy, but getting older doesn’t stop a man from being sexy at all, as long as they don’t get too fat. 🙂

        1. Cathy

          Bronson? As in Charles Bronson? Sigh….That there says it all. @Tamara, I’ve dated much older guys, too. They just don’t look good at ALL. I know you’re trying to be nice but we need to face the facts. Most of them are not exactly “fat”, as you say, but they have a LOT of punch and have large male breasts, and stuff like that. It is NOT attractive to look at. Men that age chase after much younger women but they don’t seem to think they need to touch up their looks. they do need to. And also they should try to comb their hair and put some color in it. Jeez.

        2. Jason

          “getting older doesn’t stop a man from being sexy at all, as long as they don’t get too fat.”

          I tried dating women 40+. Can’t do it. I’m mid-30s. Not being fat isn’t enough for women. Better to be eating healthy and working out, doing squats to keep the but round and firm. Physically the 40+ women are not as a woman 10+ years younger. I’ve dated women as much as 8 years younger. If I can marry a woman younger than me, why would I want a woman whose good looks are on their last leg? Face it, we all get old, but I’ll marry the one that is going to give me several more years to enjoy her beauty.

          I want a woman who is beautiful, and whose company I enjoy. Why should I give up and half of what I want in a woman?

        3. tamara

          @Cathy: I disagree that they all don’t look good.  I don’t really know about male boobs cos I haven’t really seen many older guys unclothed. But that guy I dated earlier has a nice pleasant face, thick hair, and is slim, I consider that pretty gd, but maybe u’re fussier with looks. 🙂 There are attractive older guys out there. 

          “Men that age chase after much younger women but they don’t seem to think they need to touch up their looks.” Firstly the guy I mentioned was not after much younger women, he wanted to meet women a bit younger. If a guy in his late 40s wrote on his profile that he wanted to meet women 25-30, I wouldn’t agree to date him; he’d sound too immature. Lots of older men who actually aim to date women just a bit younger than them. And I disagree that they all don’t think they need to work on their appearance. Lots of older guys work out, put effort into their dressing, etc. Probably more so than younger guys. Don’t be so hard on them. :p

          Plus look at the Advantages. Eg they would likely have slightly lower testosterone levels after a certain age, so they’re not as obsessed with sex. (Ok I guess to some women this is a disadvantage) 
           
          To some extent, I prefer dating guys at least 5 yrs older than me becos they’re more patient when I disappear cos of other problems/issues in my life. So the theory that women date much older men out of some deficiency might have some merit.

          I’m just saying there are some great older guys out there, not asking u to date an older guy who’s obese, immature, unsophisticated and shallow. 🙂

          @Jason: Well nobody insists tt u should date women 5+ yrs older than u. If u absolutely need a woman who’s fresh & beautiful for u to be happy, then I guess u shouldn’t compromise. I get why men prefer pretty women (who doesn’t? even I do), I just don’t understand why that preference is so strong, and at the cost of prizing other traits like character/intelligence. In 20 yr old guys, I get it; but once a guy is older and more mature? Maybe we need to grow up.
           

      2. 3.1.2
        Rose Q.

        Bronson, the 29 year old was saying the majority of 40 year old men don’t look as good as men in their late 20’s to older 30’s. sorry, but that’s life. women have accepted this in their own lives as they age but for some really odd reason, men think they are getting”sexier” and “hotter”/”better” at everything as they age, and it’s just a falsehood. the majority of men don’t even bother to take care of themselves physically, yet still think their “sexual value” is through the roof in the eyes of 27 year old women, and these men are so delusional. Women face reality. I wish men would too. I appreciate it when a man doesn’t over value his sexual worth (as Even Mark Katz put it in this post). But I’m not going to go any further because this is turning into a rant now, and I’m not interested in ranting. Ha ha.

        1. elle

          Very few people male or female look as good in their 30s and 40s and beyond as they did in their 20s.

        2. Al

          Absolutely agree! Men don’t get “sexier” as they age any more than women do. Balding, pudgy and sagging isn’t any more attractive on a dude than it is on a chick. Our culture prizes youth and BOTH sexes look better when we are younger. Older men used to have a big advantage financially, which artificially inflated their value but, as women become more financially independent, men are finding that women’s expectations are starting to mimic men’s. Now older men just having more money isn’t quite as much of a draw (though it does still linger). Those Hotties in their 20’s and 30’s may have their OWN money now. Guess what kind of lover most of them will choose when financial security isn’t an issue? That’s right, just like the men, they will go for the best looking ones. Now SOME men still look fantastic in their 40’s and 50’s. But honestly, how many men that age actually look like Johnny Depp? Take money off the table and most (not all) people of both sexes will go with looks. It’s just the way it goes. That means, as women gain more equality, older men are going to have to change with the times, get into shape and start finding an appreciation for women their own age. This is what gave rise to the “Manosphere” in my opinion.  Certain men are very angry that they are being left behind in a new world where women expect more of them than merely to exist.

    2. 3.2
      Emily

      Tsk tsk tsk.
      I see a dissembler in thee.
      Whatever makes you feel better though…
       

      1. 3.2.1
        dirrrty30s

        Totally agree with Jenna. I’m 38 and have always had a wide range of female friends and the general consensus has always been 2-4 yrs. older in high school, but levels out at a 3 yrs. older and two yrs. younger by senior year in college or in general. I get so annoyed by these men in their 50’s who basically try to “buy” me. They’ll tell me their annual income on the first encounter and for some reason feel “entitled” to date inappropriately younger women because they’ve worked hard. They should be looking to date women their own age. I don’t want your mid-life crisis issues (some of you on this site wreak of insecurity), or trophy status. You do realize that girls in their 20’s will become women in their 30s and after child birth may not bounce back. Also, their is a collective hypocracy going on here, you bash women over 34 for not being attractive enough, yet get up-in-arms when a 27 yr old tells you your too old and unfit. I am single and holding out for true love, I’d rather die alone than settle. Why cheat myself and the man, we both deserve better than lukewarm love. Chemistry is the driving factor above all else, age, old-man gut whatever. I think alot of ya’ll embellish your prowess. women want men their own age. Sorry fellas, this isn’t the dark ages.

        1. EmeraldDust

          @ dirrrty30’s  said “I’d rather die alone than settle.”
           
          Uh-Oh, someone just dropped an “S” bomb.

        2. Rose Q.

          Dirrty30s, I agree 100% with you about older men bashing 34 yea old women’s looks and then getting “up in arms” when 27 year old women tell these men how old, ugly, fay, fat, and bald they look. I’m telling you, these 50 year old men become so enraged they can become violent. they just cannot face the truth, which is that they…are ugly. And old. I’m so sorry to have to tell the truth here but so many let themselves go for so long. They equate where they work or how much bread they make with their level of attractiveness, and it just doesn’t work that well in 2015.  but they cannot be talked out of it. The way they bash women their own ages is a really turn-off. I can’t help thinking: “Exactly WHO does this guy think he is, Zac Efron???”doe

        3. Al

          Hallelujah! Someone here gets it!

    3. 3.3
      SpencerT

      Thats amusing a 29 year old woman creeped out by 35-39. This is why I like to stick to women 20-25.  Women 27-32 overestimate their power and attractiveness. Women 32-40 are feeling the shot clock and conduct dates like interviews not attempts to have fun and connect. To each his own. U do ur thing good luck 

      1. 3.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Stick to women 20-25, Spencer. Leave the adults to the rest of us.

        1. D.

          Love that ^

          PISAH Evan! 😉 

        2. mcurious1

          awesome

        3. Ana

          Wed never go for him….

        4. I love emk

          Go EMK, you rock

          Although I still disagree about men in their prime…it’s 29-34 hubba hubba – you’ve upped the limits to fit yourself in the range. You know it!

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Actually, I quoted a study. And I’m 43. So not exactly. But I’ll take the praise anyway.

      2. 3.3.2
        Ana

        Lool like women my age without daddy issues would ever date a guy that old. You act like women 20-25 are just lining up at your door. Cold truth… WE LIKE YOUNG HOT GUYS.

    4. 3.4
      Rafal

      Spot on Jenna. 

    5. 3.5
      Al

      Oh my goodness. This is too funny. Most people are intuitive enough to realize that they won’t freeze in time at the perfect age. Honey, just wait until that “twenty” isn’t in front of your age anymore. You too will be over 40 one day (if you’re lucky) and boy howdy will things look differently to you from this side of the aisle.

    6. 3.6
      Drakos

      You are saying that you are creeped out by a guy only 6 years older than you?

      I have news for you, 5-10 years age difference between man and woman is not uncommon. You must have some serious issues if you are this discriminative in your behaviour.

       

      At age 29 a woman is still very attractive for all age groups of men. At 35+ things start to change. Womens fertility starts to drop of,  and they become less attractive. So enjoy it while it lasts.

       

       

       

       

    7. 3.7
      Aurora Glamoura

      No different than a red piller. Want to uplift women who have self esteem issues, thinking that low self esteem is a feminine trait and wants to bash women with high self esteem and say it’s a masculine trait.

  4. 4
    Dina Strange

    It’s always better to be healthy and rich, than sick and poor.

  5. 5
    Locutus

    Jenna,
    You’re creeped out by guys just 6 years older than you???  Then you go and put down girls who are younger than you calling them insecure and unstable.  Well aren’t you just the perfect princess??  You sound like a total suck up snob to me!!!  

    1. 5.1
      Kiki

      Why do you need to come here and insult women? If I were the host here, I would ban you again.

      1. 5.1.1
        Locutus

        Kiki,
        Really?  I’m sticking up for the women that Jenna just insulted!    Why are you angry at me for firing back at her, but you don’t get angry at her insulting comments??  Is it ok when women insult others, but not ok when men do it??  Is that it??  Hypocrisy at its best!!!  At least I had reason to be insulting- it was a response to someone who already made insulting comments!! 
        Are there any women here in their early to mid 20’s here because Jenna just said that most of you are insecure, unstable, and lack confidence.  If I was a 25 year old woman on here I’d be pissed at her ignorant comments and would fire right back at her!!!! 

        1. Elyse

          Honestly, Locutus?  You sound like an over-35 guy who’s bitter and angry that girls in their twenties are finding you creepy.  

        2. Elyse

          Also, I am under 25.  I’m 24.  And I definitely agree with her – guys in their thirties are creepy as heck.

          Evan is all about getting women to face up to reality, but I think men often need to swallow the bitter pill and consider the truth of their own attractiveness to women. The problem with a lot of “red-pill dating advice” is that there’s too much stroking of the male ego, and not enough stone-cold reality.  For the most part, women want men their own age – and I understand that the truth is often painful, but this is, nevertheless, the stone-cold reality that you are dealing with.  For the most part, no, women under 25 are not going to be interested in anything that a man in his thirties could potentially offer, and we do find it very creepy when older men express sexual interest in us.  Women value youthful good-looks to a far greater extent than many men realize.

        3. Seriously

          Jenna didn’t insult men or women. She said what she personally found creepy and how she personally felt about most younger women. Good lord, stating her personally feelings about the topic at hand shouldn’t open her up to your weak insults Locutus.

        4. Locutus

          To Seriously:
          Ok, then if I say to me most women over 40 are old bags you better not raise one finger to that because it is just my opinion and it’s not insulting to anyone.  You have no right to feel any ill feelings at all over my comment.  If you feel one bit insulted or irritated by my statement then you’re a total hypocrite!!!!!

        5. RustyLH

          @Locutus
          “To Seriously:
          Ok, then if I say to me most women over 40 are old bags you better not raise one finger to that because it is just my opinion and it’s not insulting to anyone.”
           
          Yes Locutus, you have to understand where you are at.  Evan’s clients are mostly women.  So yes it is not fair in the way things are sometimes viewed here.  We men often do get beat up for what we say and or how we say it, but many women will say some vitriolic things and nobody bats an eyelash.   So since it is OK for 20 or 30 something women to say what they want to say, I will ask something I have been biting my tongue on, because the fact is I am not as bad of a guy as many here want to believe, but now it seems it must be said.    I’ve seen this sentiment here, by women in there 20s, 30s, 40s, and even 50s..all women basically saying they are creeped out by men 5 to 10 years older hitting on them.
          If we posted that a woman older than ourselves hitting on us was creepy, would that fly, or would we be the targets of wrath for our insensitivity?
          The real truth and I will be the first to admit it, those comments should always be filtered out.  Who do they help?
          Either way, you and I both know that it is actually very rare for a woman in her mid 20’s to be creeped out by being approached by a man in his 30, so let it roll right off your back.   my 30’s, right before I got married were the best years of my life regarding woman.  And all of them were in their early to late 20’s.
           
          Edited it to be more politically correct.
          I use NoScript and was just authorizing several scripts related to this website, and noticed this.  I thought I had submitted it and yet here it sits in the reply window.

        6. Mandar Sane

          i can’t reply to elyse’s comment directly so i will do so here. people are entitled to be attracted to whatever they’re attracted to. but i feel it’s unfair to say that men in their thirties are just a bunch of bitter dudes. but if we’re going to do that, it would also be fair to say that women who are in their mid to late 30’s are just bitter that men want women younger than them. right? if not, i detect a double standard. i think a guy who basically tries to buy a woman is kind of a douche. just as i think a woman who thinks she needs to catered to and paid for, who can’t hold herself financially accountable…..is an undateable princess. also, i think by and large most men and women are largely vapid mediocre creatures more concerned with outwardly appearances than they are self awareness or looking at the world from a broader lens than the one that has been ingrained into them from childhood. also, there isn’t nearly enough self-acceptance and taking of personal responsibility for the results we’re getting in the dating game. by the way, if it helps you ladies out, not all men are attracted to youthful female creatures. i am 35, but i am told all the time that i look like i am 25-27. the last woman i went on a date with was 42, never married, and had no children. older women actually kind of fascinate me. but that’s probably because i am kind of an old soul. so again, to each their own in their dating preferences. but if you’re automatically writing people off because of their age, that isn’t fair. 

      2. 5.1.2
        Aurora Glamoura

        It’s not an insult. She’s just describing the way things are.

    2. 5.2
      SAL9000

      As a man in his early 40s who dates women in their 20s I’ve never been confronted with this “creeped out” stuff. Why? I surmise that women in their 20s that I approach are accustomed to being approached by men in their late (peak market value) 30s/early 40s . Don’t let the negativity bring you down.

      1. 5.2.1
        Elyse

        Yeah, I’m going to have to doubt that you’re actually dating many 20-somethings on any serious level.   The only way in which that’s true is if you’re extraordinarily youthful for your age. The vast majority of men in their early forties are not sexually appealing to women in their twenties.

        Now, make no mistake about us, women in our twenties are certainly “very accustomed” to being approached by men your age. It happens to us very often, and it’s certainly no secret to us that you’d ideally want to bone women our age.  And we’re going to be polite when you do approach us.  But most likely, no, we aren’t going to have any interest in pursuing anything serious with you.

        I’m sure you’ve approached women in their twenties who’ve been polite and perhaps even allowed you to buy them dinner. But I highly doubt that many women in their twenties have had any interest in you beyond that, unless you physically look like you could pass for 29.

        For the average guy, early forties is waaaay past prime.   A guy in his early forties who can get younger women to show *serious* sexual interest is going to be a very-far-above-average guy.  Are you sure that you aren’t mistaking politeness for genuine sexual interest?

        1. Shelly

          Sugar Daddy anyone??? 🙂

        2. SAL9000

          Ever notice at any given time in history the hottest guys in Hollywood are in their late 30s to early 50s – today that’s Bradley Cooper, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Matthew McConaughey (and many, many others)? They all date(d) or married women in their 20s or otherwise significantly younger. Are the girls they approach creeped out? Do these girls see these guys as way past prime? Nope and nope. Why? Like I said, the girls they target are used to being approached by high(est) value men at or near their peak (mid/late 30s – 40s).
           
          I use “date” euphemistically – that means I have sex and relationships with women in their 20s. However, I’d say less than 20% of the women I date are in their 20s. I see no badge of honor in it if I’m honest – the sex isn’t as good, there is drama, they’re generally not so good (or as good) at dating and relationships, and there can be generational differences in mutual interests, socio-political topics, and the like. FWIW the 20-somethings that I do end up having sex with and dating are generally doctors, lawyers and software/tech/MBA types.
           
          For some reason I can’t exactly define, IMO a woman reaches peak relationship value at 32-33, provided she keeps herself and her life together. I’ve always thought this, even when in my 20s, so that is where I spend the vast majority of my dating and relationship efforts.
           
          As to me? Am I youthful? Meh, everyone’s rich and hot on the Internet so I’ll spare the audience. If he keeps things together (like the aforementioned Hollywood hunks) a guy doesn’t start reaching peak market value till late 30s, and can plateau throughout his 40s. To put it bluntly, if you’re creeped out by the guys in the their 30s or 40s who are approaching you, you are not being approached by high market value guys at their peak (I intend this implication in the nicest way possible).
           

        3. Peter 51

          Elyse,
          Is it age that makes men creepy or attitude?  My fiancee is 24 years younger than me and everything feels perfectly natural.  However, I am sure that if I deliberately tried to seduce one of her friends or sisters for sex then I would come across as creepy.  I submit that any insincere attention is creepy.

        4. RustyLH

          @Elyse – Are you creeped out when you see a 40+ yo woman with a 20’s something guy?
          @Shelly – Is the 40 something woman with a 20 or 30 something man just a Sugar Momma?
           
          I will just ay this…if you are creeped out by older guys…fine…nobody says you have to date them or sleep with them.  Though, if you aren’t 40 something yet, you better hurry up and find a guy because soon, those creepy 40 somethings will be 50 or 60 somethings, and the creepy 40 somethings who are your peers will not want you.  Remember…40 somethings are creepy and want 20 and 30 something women.
          Also, it really is pointless to state how creeped out 20 something women are by creepy 40 something guys.  We know that some are creeped out by anyone more than 3 to 6 years older than they are.  We also know that not all 20 somethings think that way.  How do we know?  We’ve slept with them, and they rave about how good the sex is.
          Now if you said that the majority are not interested in marriage, I would agree, just as the majority of younger guys, even just a few years younger, are not interested in marriage.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          The majority of people want to date peers within 5 years. The only exception are guys who think that because they are attracted to younger women they deserve younger women. They don’t. Only 5% of marriages have a 10 year age span (off the top of my head). So please, stop beating the drum about how how foolish women are for passing you up. In fact, they have no shortage of options that they consider superior to you.

        6. RustyLH

          The majority of men want a woman that is a 9 or 10.  Isn’t going to happen for 80% of them.  Point is the same.  If what you are doing is working for you actually works, keep doing it.  If it isn’t, you might want to broaden your search.  Maybe when you open your mind to something, you also open your mind to other things.  Dr. Phil once had a show that showed just how insanely some women have closed minds.  One women could not date a man who wore sandals…or should I say, refused to date men who wore sandals.  Opening the mind, being open to new things is the point.
          Clearly, if a woman is not getting what she wants, the first thing to do is to find out if it is just something she is doing wrong.  Maybe she is sending out a bad vibe, or has a bad habit that is turning men away.  But then what does she do when the new strategies don’t work?
          Hey, a guy could go to a PUA to try to learn to pick up a 9 or 10, and even if he gets the strategy down perfectly, it doesn’t mean he will score a 9 or 10.  He might be unemployed, or very unattractive and no strategy is going to help.  Or there simply may not be enough to go around, and so he will have to accept a 7 or 8.  If he is so focused on never “settling” for anything but a 9 or 10, he may end up single for life.  The most obvious point is that if what you are doing isn’t working for you…something has to change.

        7. starthrower68

          For every 20-something female getting creeper out by a 40-something man hitting on her, there is a 40-something woman getting annoyed at the 20-something boy hitting on her.  Guess it all evens out in the wash. 😉

        8. Den

          @Sal9000 – The hottest guys in Hollywood, speaking in terms do aesthetics, are Chris Hemsworth and Henry Cavill, aka Thor and new Superman (both are about 30/31).  I think you are confusing prestige and credibility with attractiveness.  Between the ages of 35-50, actors are given the chance to be taken more seriously, thus they get better roles, are more likely to earn awards, and make more money.  Are Pitt, Clooney, McConaghy good looking guys for their age?  Sure.  Are they the hottest, let alone in their prime?  Not really.  Those 3 guys were smoking in the 90s; not so much now.  However, like many men who increase in status with age, they trade boyish good looks and virile sex appeal for prestige and respect with age.  Hollywood is run by old men, so naturally they create a system that allows older actors to thrive.  

          In a decade or so, we will see if Thor and new Superman will be allowed to make that transition and hang up their red capes.  But even if they do get to trade virile, beefcake sex appeal for mature thespian credibility, women 16-60 will always prefer them in their cape wearing days.  

        9. Rich

          I should think one big reason men date younger women is the biological imperative.  A woman in her 40s is likely to have a much shorter window for reproduction than a younger woman.

        10. InjunJoe

          You make no sense. You say that men in their 30s are not attractive and youthful enough for women under 25. So then do you think thatall women over 25 have lower standards? Or do you think that they all secretly crave younger men but aren’t attractive enough to get them? Well guess what, most men under 25 ARE often times attracted to women in their 30s and 40s. And no, they don’t need to look younger. So what makes you think men over 30 can’t attract wkmen under 25? Do you think women care MORE about youthfil beauty than men do???

        11. James

          To all the women in your 20’s out there, that hot guy your checking out at the gym, and hope to see again. He’s really 38 – 42, but you dont know it. You have no clue. lol. Ok. Maybe not that common, but these guys are really out there.

        12. Julie23

          Um, I think you’re lying to yourself. Truth be said: women are attracted to hot young good looking guys in their 20s. As a 23 year old girl, I find thirties and up approaching me creepy as SH*T. I’m not even gonna comment on ,god forbid, 40s and up… Chase women your own age. Older men are creepy and repulsive to us. It’s just how it is, pretty much no one will sex people that are less attractive than they can get. Even if you’re relatively unattractive you’ll at least do it with the least unattractive person you can find. No one actively goes around looking for people uglier than they can get, you know? Young women can get hotter (i.e: younger in their 20s) guys so that’s what we’ll go after. It’s precisely the creepy dude who just doesn’t understand that that’s the problem.
           

        13. Drakos

          Why do you accuseing him of lying? He clearly sad that he has dated women in their twenties, and slept with them as well.

          Guys in their thirties  or even forties dating women 10-15 years younger than themselves is not that uncommon.

          Its fine that you dont like older guys, but lay off the rude and condescending tone. You are just making an ass of yourself.

        14. Ellen

          Men in their prime: age 25-29 max. Yes, the truth is hard to swallow.

      2. 5.2.2
        Red

        I’d be impressed if you got one. What are you doing, dating hard-luck girls? Could you even get a date with someone your own age?

  6. 6
    Deb

    Evan
    Thank you for this…I’m 44 and have been a part of forwit mostly dominated by men who think the world is they’re oyster simply because their age compared to women their age.  TThese men tend to act like entitled adolescence who most quality women their age wouldn’t give the time of day.  So they go to the younger ones and never find anything fulfilling.  I’m so glad you and others are speaking the truth…especially for women who hear that stuff and think its true.  It’s been pointed out that all of the good roles in Hollywood are going to women over 40 now.  Times are changing I think.  

    1. 6.1
      Rebecca

      _I_ believed this.  At age 44 I got back in to the dating “market” and I really believed that the odds were stacked against me.  But really, even if the census data says that not ALL women my age can find a man our age to couple up with, LOTS of us can, and I feel lucky. 

  7. 7
    Sabine

    I’m 35 and prefer to date men my own age or older, 45 tops.  While friends tell me I look 28-29, that doesn’t mean I want to date younger men. Honestly, I think I would feel uncomfortable. It really is about what type of man or woman you are looking for. I have a friend who is 60, she thinks she acts and looks 50 but really behaves and has opinions like someone who is much older. Ironically, she also complains men want to date someone younger yet she does nothing to increase her sexual market value (which I feel is possible to a degree.)
     
    I do believe that your “spirit” (if I can say that without being rebutted b/c this is how I feel) is younger and fun, you can attract someone with a like quality of jovial sweetness that matches yours. Being honest with how you are on the inside and outside (ie don’t say you are a fitness enthusiast when you are more of a spectator than a participant) helps when you want to meet a true match instead of moulding yourself into something your are not. Play fair and you’ll increase your market value. 🙂 Oh btw, eating healthy is a great way to have an inner and outer glow regardless of your age. And, I am always reading something interesting (light reading, not “rag mags”) so I can chat about something interesting when I bump into people regardless of their age 🙂

  8. 8
    Su

    I think that Evan is probably right when saying the woman’s peak is around 27-30 . I think men’s peak is probably more like 30-34.  Although at around age 22, I was still in college and dating guys my age… And so were my friends.  So from my experience I really doubt many 22 year old girls are dating 35-40 year old men! Many of my male friends even now date women their age as well. So, I think the men who think they can be 45 and date 20 year olds are delusional. This probably only happens if the man is insanely rich. 

    1. 8.1
      Ray

      Hi girls, Im 28y old male, and I easily date 17-23 year old girls. If you look fit enough, earn enough and have bals you can date 20 years old girls with no problem.
      If you ask me womans beauty peak is at 18-23 years in most cases. Offcourse there are always exceptions, I know 42 years old woman that looks better than a teenage girls. Its all about genetics and how well you take care of yourself.
      Cheers

      1. 8.1.1
        Steelheart

        “Easily” date 17-year-old girls, eh? 
        Thanks for confessing to statutory rape on a dating blog!

        1. Cupcake

          He didn’t say he slept with them .. so no.

        2. EmeraldDust

          In many states the age of consent is 16. So depending on the state he lives in, he may not be confessing to anything. 

  9. 9
    Chance

    Jenna said (#3):
    “I’m 29 and creeped out by most guys who are 35-39 for a long term relationship – what peak sexual market value? I’d put men’s more at 29-34.”
     
    What happens if a man is 34 years and 11 months old?  Does he go from being at peak SMV to creepy in a matter of a month?  I think people could benefit by being less rigid about age requirements and by approaching men/women on a case-by-case basis.  There may be some men out there in the 29-34 age bracket who may exhibit some the traits that creep you out, and there may be some men out there in the 35-39 age bracket who may be a good match.  Keep an open mind when considering your options 🙂
     
     
    Kiki said (#5.1):
    “Why do you need to come here and insult women? If I were the host here, I would ban you again.”
     
    Considering that you’ve said (on multiple occasions) that you wish all men would be banned from this site, it’s understood that you wish that Locutus be banned as well.  Duh.
     
    Elyse said (#5.1.1):
    “The problem with a lot of “red-pill dating advice” is that there’s too much stroking of the male ego, and not enough stone-cold reality.”
     
    I would agree with this assessment.  What it does for men is similar to what “Sex and the City” did for women – it inspires false confidence.  Another similarity SATC is that its followers spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over attracting the opposite sex, while simultaneously trying to convince the world that they don’t need the opposite sex.
     
    Sabine said (#7):
    “I’m 35 and prefer to date men my own age or older…”
    Again, it’s in your best interest to not let age restrictions limit your options.  I’m pretty sure there are plenty of 31-35 y/o men out there that you are compatible with.  My girlfriend is your age, and I’m four years younger.
     
    “Oh btw, eating healthy is a great way to havean inner and outer glow regardless of your age. And, I am always reading something interesting (light reading, not “rag mags”) so I can chat about something interesting when I bump into people regardless of their age”
     
    Absolutely!
     
     

    1. 9.1
      Kiki

      Chance,
      I see here, on several occasions, men who jump at female posters, giving them derogative qualifications, or using a patronizing tone, or making derogatory implications by twisting their words, using them out of context, or creating straw-man arguments.
      This attitude not only does not contribute anything to the discussion, it repulses women.  Men in real life do not dare to act like this, and I would like to say to all women here – ladies, there are wonderful, normal men out there, who would not take advantage of you by misleading you to believe you will have a real relationship when they clearly have only a FWB in mind, and many normal, real life men would not think you are a stupid for having repeatedly suffered through heartbreak, but will realize it is only human, and most regular guys would not call you a “suck up snob” for wanting to date within your own age group.  The type of men who would dare to insult women are disporporationately represented on this blog, and I would leave it up to you to have your own explanation as to their motivations.  

      1. 9.1.1
        Chance

        Kiki,
         
        “I see here, on several occasions, men who jump at female posters, giving them derogative qualifications, or using a patronizing tone, or making derogatory implications by twisting their words, using them out of context, or creating straw-man arguments.”
         
        Women do these things just as often here.  You’re just choosing to ignore it.  Additionally, you often reach to be insulted by comments where the intent is not to insult. 
         
        “This attitude not only does not contribute anything to the discussion, it repulses women.  Men in real life do not dare to act like this”
         
        The beliefs/attitudes of most of the men here are a good representation of how most men think.  I’m guessing that many men on here are being more vocal than what they would be IRL because it’s not productive to freely express these opinions at work or in social circles.  The information they provide can be useful if women choose to use it.  I’m thinking of Lia as a good example:  she would make an effort to understand where men were coming from, and then use that info to her advantage.  I haven’t seen her post in a while…. Hopefully, that means she’s out there dating with much success. 
        What really isn’t useful is when women come on here telling other women what they want to hear:  that they are doing nothing wrong, that it ‘s always the man’s fault, or that men (as an entire sex) should change.  This affirmation certainly makes women feel better, but it is ultimately harmful because it doesn’t inspire the change necessary to be successful in relationships.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Either way, Locotus is gone. I got sick of having to edit his inflammatory and insulting posts. It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy. The thing that he never figured out was that two wrongs don’t make a right. Life is too short to deal with relentless negativity and word-twisting, and so he will no longer be joining us in these parts.

          It’s funny to think that I’ve come under criticism in the past for banning dissenters from this blog or my Facebook fan page, especially when you look at the TREMENDOUS amount of dissent that has been posted over the years to my material. As always, you can disagree respectfully with facts and logic, but you can’t insult me or other commenters here. Sometimes, insults slip through the cracks, but we aim to create a safe community with a healthy dialogue. You can’t have that if you have to constantly fight off attacks. A man criticizing women isn’t inherently sexist – the problem is when he starts to make sexist remarks that undermine his objectivity.

      2. 9.1.2
        Drakos

        Really have you looked at the posts from “Elyse” or “Julie23”?

        They are quite derogative and repulsive. A woman exhibiting these kinds of behaviors I would never give the time of day, no matter what her age or looks might be.

        I really dont think this is a male/female thing. Rather some people enjoy trolling around writing posts in the most mean spririted way they can possibly imagine without using foul language.

    2. 9.2
      Sabine

      You’re right. I should not limit “range”. However, some men in their early thirties are not as “quick” to settle (though I cannot speak for all men). Also, many men who are 35 have a better idea of where their career is (or they are making plans to stabilize) and are less in the climbing mode. Likewise, if a man in his early 30’s met someone special he could be more apt to spend less time at the office. A friend of mine (he is 37, I think) is starting to value personal time more than work (I did point out he worked a lot and we chatted about ways he could improve income while working less) and is trying to work smarter instead of harder. Then again, this is not always possible. I don’t date someone based on salary btw. I really value intellect, wit and charm 🙂 Humor and personality is my weakness 🙂

  10. 10
    J

    Well gee, Ray, then  I guess I’m in a lot of trouble, seeing as how I peaked at 23 and I’m now 32. Except, oh yeah, there was that really bad cystic acne problem I had way back then. Oh, and the fact that I’m now about 15 pounds lighter than I was then. Oh, and let’s not forget the braces I had to have for the second time (not to mention the veneers I got three years ago). 
    Needless to say, my point is that despite the fact that I may have a few wrinkles and stretch marks where previously there were none, my face is clear, my teeth are straight (and white!), I’m more fit and much more comfortable and confident with both who I am, and what I want out of life and love. 
    If this is how good I’ve gotten to be after all this time and effort, then I eagerly look forward to what I’ll look like at 42, even if the men at that age largely waste their time chasing young females who think they’re creepy. And thank you for acknowledging that not every older woman looks like a hag once she’s supposedly past her sell-by date. Plenty of older women do take the time to maintain their appearance. I just wish the same could be said for men. I can’t keep track of the number of overweight slobs who contact me on dating sites. Seriously guys, women like a hot body too! We shouldn’t be the only ones responsible for keeping ourselves looking good. 

  11. 11
    J

    I agree with the notion that keeping yourself fit is important (for looks as well as health). However, your assertion that women peak at 23 is incorrect, in my opinion. I am now 32 years old. At 23, I was not only at least 10-15 pounds heavier than I am now, but I suffered from cystic acne for many years. It started in my late teens and it took several years of treatment before it abated. I also needed braces again in my mid-twenties, along with the veneers I got a few years ago. 
    I’m no Jessica Alba but I flatter myself that even with a few wrinkles and stretch marks, I look a lot better than I did then. I’m also much more mature, self-assured and confident in myself than I was at that age. As far as I’m concerned, while there are many men who do worship at the Altar of Youth, let them chase their pipe dream. I want a man who wants a woman, not a twenty year old girl. 

    1. 11.1
      Joe

      J, note that the issues you mention were entirely under your control.  If you’d lost 15lb, gotten braces and acne meds at 23, your SMV would’ve been higher than it is now at 32.

      1. 11.1.1
        J

        Joe: Gee, why didn’t I think of that when I was being told by a girl I worked with that it looked like I had a tumor growing on my face?  Seriously, it’s not like I wasn’t fully aware of my appearance. I mean, what woman hasn’t spent the majority of her years after puberty lamenting how bad she looks? I went to the dermatologist for SIX YEARS during my twenties and all he was able to do for me at that time was prescribe antibiotics at progressively higher doses (which not only completely dried out my skin, but wreaked havoc on my digestive system). It wasn’t until my hormones leveled out after my twenties that my skin cleared. And I have been on and off diets ever since I turned 19. Ironically, it wasn’t until I swore off dieting two years ago that I really began to get in shape. And I didn’t realize I needed braces again until I was 25. I’d already had them in my teens, but two of my teeth started to shift after a number of years, plus they were inexplicably stained. Besides, it took me a year to save up for the braces (they cost $1800). It wasn’t like I wasn’t aware that there were things that could be made better. I did what I could but to say that those things were entirely under my control is incorrect. Thank you for your input but your assumption is way off.

        1. Cupcake

          What Joe is saying that if that was all taken care of your SMV would have been higher at 22. At 22 I had an ugly haircut and was way too skinny, but had I taken care of myself I would have been more attractive at 22 then I am now. I do think I’m much prettier now, but I know that I will never be as pretty as I could have been when I was younger, wasted my potential.

        2. Jenn

          Cupcake,
           
          You appear to not have fully paid attention to my comment. I will say it again: I suffered from very bad cystic acne, which I attempted to treat with the help of a dermatologist for 6 YEARS. That was beyond my control. My teeth started to shift and I had to get braces for a second time – again, that was beyond my control at the time. They were also stained, which was again, beyond my control. Why? Because I needed money to fix those things, and time in which to save it. A haircut is an easy fix, and you could have easily bought a cheap gym membership or used your school workout room to bulk up if you were too skinny, so don’t confuse superficial changes like that with the major overhaul that I needed. I spent almost $4000 on my teeth and I’m going to have to take out a loan to repair the damage the acne did to my skin (and that’s not even mentioning what it did to my psyche). I also used diets to try to control my emotional overeating, which I did not know at the time that the diets would actually make it worse and I would balloon up to 100 pounds overweight as a result. I did the best I could at the time with the information I had.

    2. 11.2
      Buck25

      J,

      I hope you DO look forward to 42…and beyond. If you take good care of yourself, you can look very attractive into your fifties, maybe longer. A reasonable number of women do; the ones who don’t often either never took care of themselves, or just gave up. Congrats on having the courage to actually do something about those things in your appearance that bothered you, instead of just whining about them, or demanding that men find you desirable anyway! You sound like you’re really enjoying “the new you”, and you should; you worked hard to make that happen!

  12. 12
    Jenna

    I’m somewhat amused at the debate my comment inspired. For me personally — and it’s fine if others view this differently – marriage is a beautiful opportunity to grow throughout your life with someone and being roughly the same age, give or take five years, is part of that. I used to date men 10 years older in my early and mid 20s, but I wasn’t serious about them, even if we were exclusive. While I’ll sure have a fling with someone of any age, or a one night stand, that’s as far as it will go at this point in my life. And I wasn’t trying to bash all women under 25, but honestly, I was a mess then and so were/are many of the women I knew/know in that age group – not knowing who I was and what mattered in life, not understanding how to create my own happiness, not knowing how to be secure in myself. Since high value men marry women who are secure, love and respect themselves, and know what they want, many high value men in their 30s aren’t going to seriously go after women that young. Of course, as women age, they should keep a youthful, vibrant spirit rather than coming across as bitter and weighed down by life, and take care of themselves physically.

  13. 13
    morgan

    What happens to relative market values of each gender when having children is out of the equation for both sides?

    1. 13.1
      sacredfire222

      In our over populated world, I think not having children is becoming a more common choice for a variety of reasons.  I think though, that men prefer fertile women whether or not they want to have children with them because a fertile female exudes certain biological markers and hormonal signals that define attractiveness.  Her essence also makes for a more satisfying sexual experience to him.

  14. 14
    Still-Looking

    I find the various debates over SMV to be irrelevant.  Do women reach their peak at 22 or 32?  We only need to open a men’s magazine, such as Playboy, to reach the conclusion that the editors of those magazines have determined that the readers generally prefer younger women.  So what.
    What is relevant for dating is fishing in the right pond and having realistic expectations.  If I focus exclusively on women who are 10-15 years younger than me and are well above average in physical attractiveness then I’m going to have many lonely weekend nights.  If I had one more zero on my annual income and signed up on one of the sugar daddy websites it would be a different story (I’m not stating that every woman would be attracted by the increased wealth but some would).  
    Everyone is entitled to fish in whatever pond they prefer but if they are not getting any bites, it might be wise to head to a different pond.  It is incredibly easy to determine where one should be fishing – don’t message/wink/like/etc. anyone for a week.  After a week take a look at who has been contacting you.  Those are the people who will be interested.  

  15. 15
    MilkMae

    If you are in your thirties (woman or man) and you haven’t been in a relationship in a few years, your desirability is probably lower than you think.  Your value is illiquid.  If you work in a field that does not have many singles and/or most of your colleagues are of the same gender, then you have even more liquidity problems.  Attention on a free public dating website is not a metric of anything.  It’s almost like going to a bar and getting hit on by drunken men who got to bar by riding a bicycle.
     
     

    1. 15.1
      Sabine

      Your comment is interesting. Out of curiosity, do you feel this lack of desirability is apparent to someone that you meet for the first time (or is this appearance based)? I assume if you are not being pursued then you are not desirable, or need some tips on improvement since maybe it is something that is making you less appealing. What about someone who is recovering from divorce or someone who just breaks off a long relationship? I am curious. If a person took a six month “breather” to get their head straight, is this a bad thing? Can you tell if some one has not dated in years unless they say so? Thoughts please.  

  16. 16
    kathryn

    Wow… only 14% of Men are over 6 feet tall.   damn..   I may have to relocate to the Netherlands.
    I am new to this forum, newly back on the scene.   It’s interesting.   Please give me more stats.  They have a way of calming me down, and looking at things in a different way.  I am 42… I have decided statistically I should just chill out for the next 8 years, cause I have a feeling I have a great deal more selection at 50 than I do at 42. Because I have over estimated my Market Value, and so by the article, so have they.  At 50, we’ll both be smart enough to realize it :)))        

  17. 17
    Kiki

    “You never will be hotter than at 22, so plan accordingly”.
    I believe this to be true, now that I am 40, and having seen how my life, and the lives of female friends and relatives have developed, ever since our 20s. I used to hear the same statement from my late grandmother when I was in my early 20s, and I really hated her for that.  I could really not understand, how on earth I would be becoming less attractive with age (like 29 vs 22), and I thought she was getting senile or thinking in terms of what was true in her own youth, two generations ago.  But she was very particular that I need to meet the man I will eventually marry at the time I am at the university, because after that age the “choice of free men”  will dramatically shrink.  Now, looking back, I believe she was largely correct.   Among my friends, we all married eventually the boyfriends we dated at the last year at university.  The girls who did not have a boyfriend at the time, are still single, in our 40s.  Half of the women who married the then boyfriends are now divorced. Half of the women who divorced now have a new relationship and live-in boyfriends, but they failed to remarry (or they never wanted to, I am not sure about this one). And I am turning into my own grandmother, thinking what what advice I need to give to my now 10 year old daughter, about boys. It really is scary :-).

    1. 17.1
      Lau_ra

      Don’t agree – from what I see around is that those who married in their early 20s tend to divorce in their early 30s – as theres a lot of growing up to do while in your 20s, many couples simply grow apart. 

    2. 17.2
      Al

      You can end up in the exact same position regardless of whether you marry young or not. Like you said, many of us who did are now divorced and are having the same difficulties. I think there are some inherent difficulties in online dating that we all need to figure out since that seems to be the predominant method now. There are a LOT of people on there yet, even with all the filters in place, finding someone who is compatible can still be tough. As much as I complain about the lack of suitable men, I will admit that I am choosy. There really are plenty of decent, attractive men around. Don’t give up hope.

    3. 17.3
      JennLee

      Start with what you said here Kiki.  Then teach her the difference between settling and compromising.  Teach her not to be a princess.  Teach her to be realistic,  and understand that looks only get you so far, and that when you act entitled, eventually the man will leave for somebody who is easier to live with.  Teach her that being an equal partner doesn’t mean that she gets to have everything her way.  Teach her what qualities to value in a man, and which ones seem important when you are young, but fade quickly in a marriage.  Teach her not to put up with bad behavior from men, and not to expect men to put up with her bad behavior.
       
      If she is 10, it is time to start talking about these things.

  18. 18
    Gina

    I don’t agree… am a47 year old female and very young men in their 20ies and 30ies want to date me and have dated me.. I have many more dates and fun then when I was dating online for the first time in my early 30ies before I married when I was 42 and am newly separated. Sorry for my english but I am german. I never expected sooooo many young men being into COUGAR’S!!!!

    1. 18.1
      James

      Sounds like you have the “youth” gene exception. However, this doesn’t discount all the related sound advice given by men on this site, that would apply to most people.

  19. 19
    Joe

    But how many of those men want a long term relationship with you, Gina?

  20. 20
    Cat5

    As a 50-year-old divorced female, I find this whole discussion…disheartening.

    1. 20.1
      starthrower68

      Well, God help us all when we feel lesser than because we cannot win the approval and desire of someone who reduces us down to an arbitrary ratings system.  While I understand the discouragment and frustration, I am never again going to be the 20-something ingenue (I was a 20-something, but never an ingenue).  I am at peace with myself, even while working for better things, and I think that’s how you have to approach it.  

    2. 20.2
      Rafal

      Don’t fret. I have the same reaction as a guy. It’s just a website with general comments. Everyone’s different.

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