40-Year-Old Men Want to Get Married, Too! (On Not Being the Old Guy In the Club)

I couldn't be more sympathetic to women who are struggling in love. You're burned out with online dating. You've wasted years on unavailable and abusive men. You've focused all your attention on work and let years pass. You desire love, family and stability, but are too afraid to open your heart once again. You believe that all the good ones are taken. You believe your time has passed. You believe it's not in the cards.

I spend lots of time offering advice to women on how to reframe this negativity and date with confidence and optimism. But what about the men? That was the question asked in this viral New York Times piece about a demographic that no one talks about:

Remove the gender and their complaints sound virtually identical.

Men in their late thirties and early forties who want to settle down and can't seem to find the right partner.

Remove the gender and their complaints sound virtually identical.

These men were waiting for the right partner and the right time and may have missed their ideal window of opportunity. Now, they're forced to make compromises - same as the compromises I routinely ask women to make.

Spend less time working. "But I have a demanding job that pays too well!"

Go out with someone older. "But I can't help what I'm attracted to! But I want time to have two kids!"

Make a greater effort to date. "But I'm tired! I have more obligations on my time!"

For every realistic excuse out there, there is someone who is ignoring it. These are the people who make love a priority and make smart adjustments to their lives in order to achieve their goals.

The fact is that most of us don't take actions that are aligned with our goals.

Predictably, there was backlash to these men who'd dare admit that they're lonely and express regrets. Women, in particular, lashed out at them. "Women have it worse! Women have to compromise more! Now you know what it's like! You deserve to be alone, you picky, patriarchal narcissists!"

The fact is that most of us don't take actions that are aligned with our goals. I lament that I'm 10lbs heavier than last year and I'm still sitting here typing instead of going to the gym. Why? Because it's comfortable, familiar, and far easier than doing something.

I hope that all the men and women who want to get married and have families find each other, but I know that's just a pipe dream. Because the men will complain the women are too old and the women will complain that the men are emotional toddlers.

So who is invariably left standing alone? Those who assume that all members of the opposite gender is the same and also primary cause of all dating problems.

Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated.

Join our conversation (195 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Kh77

    I think both genders have it bad, although I don’t date women so don’t have direct experience, I have heard stories from the guys I know as well. With that said, especially with online dating, the men (again because that’s who I’m dating) seem to be on the search for next shiny thing in the bubble gum toy dispenser on their screen quite a bit and not willing to get to know the woman they’ve actually met and seem to enjoy the company of and are attracted to. There’s a new one around the corner, why settle for this one, the next one will be perfect! I know multi dating is what you’re supposed to do, but you also don’t get to know people precisely because you aren’t invested at all. No one wants disappointment of course but having feelings and opening yourself up is just part of the process, there are no guarantees. Some of these men, while good looking are not 10s themselves but you can bet they’re looking for that in a woman, and a younger one at that. I have seen this with my male friends, meanwhile the very attractive but not modelesque woman gets passed up and then these guys lament about how the hot young chick used them or ignore them. Please. I stopped feeling sorry for these particular guys a long time ago. Now it’s just a sad movie on repeat. For the men who are looking for a real connection with woman who are age appropriate and reasonably attractive (at least in accordance with the man himself) I do have sympathy, it’s tough out there.

    With that said I am taking a little break from dating to regroup, I’ve had back to back disappointments although thankfully with the advice I’ve garnered on men from this site, I was able to tell one guy who obviously wanted to keep me as his back burner option while he pursued a new relationship that he could F off. I am optimistic I’ll find someone and I know it’s a needle in a haystack but there are good men out there. I’m going to join the dating leagues again come April, but enjoying the mental break right now.

    1. 1.1
      Tron

      you have hit the nail on the head there!

  2. 2
    KK

    A man in his forties that has never married gives me pause.

    1. 2.1
      Joe

      Does a woman in her forties who has never married also give you pause?

      1. 2.1.1
        KK

        @Joe,

        Yes.

      2. 2.1.2
        Stacy

        Joe,

        It’s WAYYYYYY easier for a man to be married than a woman. Meeting a man who is in his 40s, doesn’t have a whole lot of issues, reasonably good looking, has a good head on his shoulders, and is stable who has never been married is like finding a needle in a haystack.

        Fact.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Reality check: You only say that because you’re a woman. If you dated women, you’d feel that attractive, sane, stable, easygoing women were a needle in a haystack.

        2. AY

          Look, Stace. If a man was reasonably good looking with a good head on his shoulders and stable to boot, there is NO WAY in hell he would not have been married by his 40s. If that were the case, then he is just one of those men who simply prefers the batchelor lifestyle

        3. Adrian

          AY,

           

          I don’t believe that is true. It seems you are prejudging negatively any man who is good looking, successful, but never married over 40.

           

          I’m curious, why do you feel that it is okay for divorced people to be single at 40 because they haven’t found the right person yet, but you feel that if a man over 40 made that statement he is lying and secretly in love with the bachelor’s life style… which many people use as code for being a player.

           

          Why do you prejudge one and not the other?

    2. 2.2
      Kh77

      It doesn’t give me pause, on the flip side, the divorced ones, unless they’ve invested in therapy or some proper way of healing are usually very scared from divorce and may never be ready for another intimate relationship. I’ve met several like that. Everyone in their 40s has some kind of baggage unfortunately, you just need to figure out what you can live with. I won’t tolerate emotional unavailability personally, your past isn’t my problem to solve.

      1. 2.2.1
        Seth

        I wouldn’t say that we are “scared” from divorce.
        The fact is (in my case) I wound up paying a LOT to my ex, and then pay a lot still for Child Support, and when I left, she got everything that wasn’t directly mine (i.e., my books, clothes, tools, etc…)

        So after being treated the way I was treated, and then having to leave everything I had worked my ass off for the last 14 years, yeah the thought of getting back into a marriage just isn’t all that big to me.

        And I am in really good shape, for a 38 year old….
        Don’t drink, smoke or do drugs.

        So I think you may be mistaken on how  you view a divorced man in his 40’s.
        It’s not that he is scared, it is that he ain’t gonna get screwed over again.

        1. Kh77

          and yes, you’ve proven my point and why unless the man has dealt with the emotional fallout from divorce I prefer never married (which has its own set of risks but in general they seem to be more open to the idea)

        2. GoWithTheFlow

          Seth,

          “. . . it is that he ain’t gonna get screwed over again.”

          Yep, that come across loud and clear to the women you meet.  After awhile, the woman feels like she is forever lamenting, “But I’m not (insert name of ex-wife here)!”  It gets tiring doing the penance for another woman’s sins.

          It’s even worse if the man’s ex cheated on him.  It is hurtful and embarrassing for a woman when her husband has cheated on her.  But for a man, there seems to be an added mind-f*** when he has been the cheatee.

      2. 2.2.2
        Kh77

        Scared was actually a typo and it’s too difficult to go back edit in this format, it should have said “scarred” which I’ve found to be true. Not saying it’s right or wrong but the men I’ve encountered who are divorced seem to be that way

        1. KK

          Kh77,

          Anyone over 40 is going to have some scars, regardless of relationship status. How many failed relationships and heartbreaks has a 40+ never married gone through?

        2. Kh77

          Yep, exactly why I said dating never married men has its own set of risks as well, but in general I find those men more open to the idea of marriage or at least a relationship than the divorced ones I’ve met.

        3. Kh77

          We all have scars and heartbreak, but it’s not fair to the person you’re dating, whether you’re a man or a woman not to deal with those issues from your past. No one wants a project that they have to fix into making a healthy adult. Everyone needs to take care of their side of the street.

        4. KK

          Kh77,

          I agree; up to a point… Good luck finding someone that is 100% emotionally healthy.

          We all have our baggage. Is there a difference between someone who recognizes it and does something about it versus someone who just buries it and hopes for the best? Absolutely!

          Let’s say you start dating a great guy and he eventually tells you that he’s been dumped 30 times and had abandonment issues, but he went to counseling for two years and thought it was largely resolved. He then tells you when you do certain things (or don’t), he starts to worry you will abandon him like the others.

          So do you dump him and move on because he isn’t 100% healed… Or do you value his vulnerability and honesty and assure him that will not happen even if you have to modify your behavior to make him feel secure?

    3. 2.3
      Adrian

      KK,

       

      Why?

       

      Why is a man who has a failed relationship more normal to you than a guy who waited?

      1. 2.3.1
        KK

        Hi Adrian,

        I will do my best to condense this as much as possible. First, “a man who has a failed relationship”, isn’t necessarily the one at fault or even halfway at fault for that relationships’s failure. It only takes one to blow up a marriage. Male or female. Now, if he is at fault, I’m not interested. If it’s one of those “we grew apart” things (yellow flag) I’d proceed with caution.

        Second, I’m all for a guy waiting until he’s ready. I’m all for everyone waiting until they’re ready. However, 40 is a bit long to wait (in my opinion) and throws up some strong yellow flags, possibly red flags, depending on the reason. If you look at the typical timeline, most people are finished with school and starting their careers by early/ mid twenties. Unless you have some major issues (commitment phobic, personality disorder, whatever…) MOST people want to and are able to settle down and marry sometime between mid twenties and mid thirties). I’m sure there are exceptions. I’d be open to those who are. Generally speaking, if I could only choose between a 40 something never married vs a 40 something married, divorced once, I’d choose the divorced one.

        1. Henry

          KK, you just got done railing on karmic equation for being narrow minded and believing only her world views are acceptable.

          then you come back with “anybody not married by 40 has major issues?”

          If that was a different KK, I offer my sincere apologies.

        2. KK

          Oh gosh, Adrian,

          Pleae don’t make me rehash this. I was only responding to Henry in short without going through the whole thing. No, Karmic never stated that. I felt it was implied by her responses. Others did as well. I made 2 or 3 very innocuous statements to which she countered adamantly, with no wiggle room for error, with her psychoanalysis of the letter writer. It’s over.

        3. KK

          Furthermore, Henry,

          Pay attention to what I said and what I didn’t say. I never said I wouldn’t date a 40 something never married man. I didn’t advise anyone against it either. I simply said it would give me pause. It would be incredibly naïve and unwise to get seriously involved with someone without finding out why they’re still single. If you get a reasonable explanation you can live with, move ahead. If not, don’t. Someone in that position would also be incredibly naïve if they didn’t think they would be expected to explain their situation to a potential partner.

        4. Caroline

          Hi KK- the article about the men did give me pause and make me wonder if I made sweeping generalizations about the over 40 never married set -male or female. I wonder if it’s harder for them since I basically grew up earlier. I do have a slightly different opinion on the idea of fault in a divorce though. It comes from my personal experience so I’m sure it doesn’t apply across the board. Ultimately my divorce came down to my ex’s alcoholism but after reflection I realize along the road just how many things I did wrong like pulling away, not verbalizing, etc. Do I feel I caused his alcoholism? Hell no! But I do think I could have been a better partner to help him with his problem even though it is the addicted persons responsibility (you can’t change someone but you can chAnge yourself). I guess after many years you mellow and only grow if you see your part in the matter. In other words, I really see red flags if a guy I’m dating is still blaming his ex. So I don’t know if I could honestly place most the blame on him.

          I do have similar experiences with both female and male nevermarrieds as you though but admit it’s a small slice of folks overall. The reason they aren’t married is pretty apparent even though I think they’re good people. I have a girlfriend who although I cherish her friendship i can see why most guys would run. She’s a diva, she thinks she’s hot as sh**, she’s obsessively clean and requires it of those around her, she’s hyper critical, yet I like her but I sure wouldn’t want to live with her! I know maybe 5 eternal bachelor’s. I dated a guy (in his 50s) who honest to gosh lived like a frat boy and usually turned up short of $ on dates, my guy has a buddy who wants us to set him up (he’s 59)but he is really delusional about his looks, intellect and golf game, general skills in life. The braggart usually comes out when he drinks. The others I know are mostly socially awkward. But that’s just a handful of folks so who knows there probably are people who just waited too long and it’s become increasingly challenging.

          On preferring divorced men, to me it’s a mutual experience so hopefully you won’t be judged too harshly by another divorced, person. I just gauge how well they’ve healed and are ready to move on:)

        5. KK

          Hi there Caroline,

          I totally get what you’re saying and I dated a couple of them who blamed their exes for everything. So yeah, I agree. We want partners to take responsibility and learn from their past.

          I do think that sometimes there is one spouse at fault though. Cheaters, abusers, etc.

          If, for instance, I met a man who had divorced and after dating awhile, he explained his divorce was due to his exe’s infidelity, I wouldn’t assume it was because he was a crappy husband; because I don’t think there’s ever an excuse even if someone is a crappy spouse. There are people who appear to be great spouses and still get cheated on or abused in some way. So… if he told me this and then said something like, “I really think I was a good husband”, I wouldn’t automatically assume he’s full of crap. I think it’s very possible and I would want to continue to get to know him better to decide if he is a good fit for me.

        6. GoWithTheFlow

          @Caroline

          I know two women in their late 40s that never married and the why is apparent to everyone else but themselves.  They are difficult, argumentative, and in particular, they both like to point out when you’re wrong about something, and they insist their opinion is always the correct one.  I couldn’t even be Facebook friends with one of them!

          The late 40s bachelors I know all have unreasonable expectations about the attractiveness and youthfulness of the women they can get.  They are 5-6ish in their own age group, yet they are under the delusion that being older is an asset for a man in the dating world.  Age over 40-45 may not be the huge negative that it is for a woman, but it certainly isn’t the positive men think it is with younger women!

          @KK

          This really chafes:  “It would be incredibly naïve and unwise to get seriously involved with someone without finding out why they’re still single. If you get a reasonable explanation you can live with, move ahead.”  It’s like saying singleness is a social pathology like being a drug addict or convicted felon.

          Outside of the few obvious cases I mentioned above, most people who are never married by 40 come by their single status for a combination of reasons.  Those individual reasons are entirely normal and benign, but the sum of the total equals never been married.

          This combo can be;  spent years both working and getting an education which left no time for dating;  then a few multiyear committed relationships that didn’t lead to the big C;  taking care of a sick parent or disabled sibling;  relocating a few times which means starting over with forming social networks; or (true for many women) raising a child which leaves you limited time and energy for dating and doesn’t exactly make you popular with the guys.  (I actually had no idea how many men have actual disdain for single moms until recently.  Not reservations or concerns, but actual hatred towards)

      2. 2.3.2
        KK

        Henry,

        I gave a different opinion than her and I only called her out after she repeatedly told me her opinion was superior.

        I didn’t do that here. I gave an opinion and was asked to explain. I did. In that explanation, I said I know there are exceptions. My take on it is that MOST people over 40, that have never married do have some issues, even if it’s just that they don’t do well with the opposite sex. Feel free to disagree. I just stated my opinion and just because it differs from yours doesn’t mean I am narrow minded. There were other comments on here contrary to my opinion. I said nothing to them.

        1. Henry

          KK- were you married by 40? Or is it only men unmarried at 40 who have “issues,” in your highly educated opinion?

           

        2. Adrian

          Henry,

           

          To be fair, it now does seem like you are attacking or at the very least try to target KK, but she already explained that she was expressing her opinion, she acknowledged that her beliefs are just that, hers-not infallible truths.

        3. Adrian

          KK,

          I have to re-read that post, you are saying Karmic Equation literally stated that “her opinion was superior”, and she made that statement repeatedly?

        4. Stacy

          Thank you!

      3. 2.3.3
        KK

        Feeling snarky, Henry?  Yes, I was married at 25.

        Look, I never said you had to agree with me. Clearly, you do not. You haven’t given any examples of the masses of well adjusted men / women over 40 who have never married.

        As an aside, my highly educated opinion (as you called it) is shared by many people. I also said there were exceptions.

        I have an acquaintance who’s mother suffered a stroke when he was in his 20’s. He took care of her for close to 20 years before she passed away. She had caretakers during the day and he could hire someone to stay nights when necessary. He worked, dated, and had a limited social life. His choice; a very selfless one. Now that he is no longer her care taker, he is finally able to live his life on his own terms. He is over 40. Do I think he will have a hard time finding someone to make a life with? Absolutely not! If anything, he is a catch!

        A friend of my mothers (who everyone has said was a knockout, by the way) was engaged to her college sweetheart. The day of the wedding, she got left at the altar. He broke her heart and she never fully recovered. Do I think she was flawed because she never married? No! Some people are able to get through things and move on better than others.

        I know many people who have been divorced 3 and 4 times by their 40’s. Do I think they are the picture of emotional maturity, stability, etc? Hell no!

        All that to say what I’ve already said. MOST people are able to settle down before 40. MOST people that are still single by that age, have something going on; some reason that they haven’t been able to (assuming that they want to).

        I have a relative that is 39. He’s a good person with a good heart but he’s self absorbed. He has never married and occasionally will talk about how much he’d like to get married and have a family. He’s hilarious. The life of the party. He’s well established. But… He lives a party lifestyle more like someone in their 20’s. It isn’t conducive to finding and keeping a quality woman. Personally, I don’t know many women that would want to be with someone that goes out drinking 3 or 4 nights a week, has a slew of “friends” popping in at any time or crashing at his place, random women calling and texting at all hours. He just isn’t marriage material.

        1. Stacy

          KK,

          The original ‘Thank you’ was intended for you. Your posts reiterate everything I would have wanted to say.

        2. Emily

          KK,

          “It would be incredibly naïve and unwise to get seriously involved with someone without finding out why they’re still single. If you get a reasonable explanation you can live with, move ahead. If not, don’t. Someone in that position would also be incredibly naïve if they didn’t think they would be expected to explain their situation to a potential partner.”

          I am going to have to disagree with you on this. I am over 40 and have never been married. I don’t feel I owe someone an explanation as to why, and particularly not in the early stages of dating before we really know each other. My life has not followed a traditional trajectory, and I’m ok with that.

        3. Adrian

          Emily,

          I swear your age shocked me! But not in a bad way, it’s just everytime you speak or make a joke, I always get the image of a young girl my age or younger, because you always put a smile on my face.

           

          I bet you have a sweet and young heart, I’m sure Dracula would love you… Oh wait, that’s young blood he wants. (^_^)

          …   …   …

          I can’t speak for all men, but I know the thought of asking a woman why aren’t they married or why don’t they have children by now, has never occurred to me.

           

          I have been on dates where women have asked me personal questions that have just killed the mood, and even caused me to lose attraction.

           

          “Do you believe in god? Do you have children? and Have you ever been married/do you ever want to get married?” When I’m asked this on the first date, it feels more like an interrogation or interview to me, which kills my mood.

           

          But last night I was thinking about the post Evan did on “when to ask about sexual preferences” and I wondered, when is the right time to ask about god, marriage and children? I guess you should wait like you would with the sex question.

           

        4. Emily

          Adrian,

          You are a sweet man. You make me laugh. It’s nice to know that I sound young. Especially at a time when I was thinking my butt was starting to rest on a lower plane.  🙂

          What is that line in American Beauty? “I’m looking for the least possible amount of responsibility.” I lived like that until I was about 40.

          Anyway, I don’t like to be bombarded with personal questions early in the dating process either. It makes me uncomfortable. The last guy who asked me out wanted to know why I wasn’t dating anybody. How am I supposed to answer that?

          I think you reveal things about yourself organically, over time, as you get to know someone. When people ask me why I’m not married, I give my standard (and bullshit) answer: It doesn’t look like that much fun.

           

           

        5. Adrian

          Emily,

          I agree that is the worst type of question, yet that is probably the question I am asked most by women.

           

          “<Pause>… Adrian you are a really handsome guy… <pause>, why are you single?”

           

          Like I honestly know the answer to that. If I knew I would be rich… or at the very least, 2nd runner up on the bachelorette! (^_^)

           

          I wish I had a great comeback like you.

        6. Emily

          Adrian,

          Say that you don’t want one woman to horde your hotness. 🙂

          (I’m kidding. That might be off-putting to a woman you may actually like.)

          If I remember correctly, you are only 30 and in college? I’m assuming you are concentrating on your studies and probably expect a transition period once you graduate and look for a job. Seems perfectly reasonable to me you aren’t serious with someone right now.

        7. SMC

          Emily, Adrian,

          I’m enjoying the back and forth with you both.  The only question I had at first was why asking if someone had kids would be taboo on a first date, but then it occurred to me that you both are considerably younger than I.  THAT made sense.  For someone my age, asking about kids would be a natural first date conversation, and since I would only care to date someone in my general age bracket (plus or minus a few years of my age), I wouldn’t think asking about kids would be offensive.  It’s something to think about, though to be perfectly honest, even if I were closer to your age, I think I’d want to know pretty much up front if my date had kids.  That’s a big thing to bring to the table.  I always made sure my dates knew up front that I did have kids, that way, if he wanted to cut and run, there was pretty much no harm done.

          Your answer to the rude question, Emily, nearly made me laugh out loud.  Good one!

        8. Adrian

          Emily,

           

          Yes, I am 30, I have a corporate job, and I graduated from college years ago, I am back in college now as a graduate working on my Masters, so unfortunately that excuse wouldn’t work for me. (-_-)

           

          Between school, work, the gym, homework, boxing classes, volunteering on the weekends at a homeless shelter, and squeezing in some quality time with my toddler niece,

           

          I only meet women at work (most are married or about 50 years old) or I meet women… I mean girls at school (most are book smart but have the maturity and priorities one would expect from a 18 year old with no real life experience or they have a boyfriend).

           

          Maybe I should just give it all up and become a pool boy as porno teaches; common Emily, when has porn ever been wrong. (^_^)

           

          As porn has taught us, when I’m a pool boy, not only will I have hundreds of gorgeous women throwing themselves at me the second they see me bend over from the back (^_^), but I will also somehow live in a million dollar mansion and drive a lamborghini with only a part-time $7 an hour job. I should have majored in pool boy-ology in college.

          …   …   …

          Something else that people say that drives me crazy when they find out that you are single is, “Enjoy being single while you can! When I was single I had …. …. …. and I was doing …. …. …. everyday!”

           

          I always think, okay, giving me your beautiful, loving family and daily supply of safe sex, and  you take my fabulous, party filled lifestyle of “seating a table for one” when I go out. It is especially irritating when guys hear I am back on a college campus.

           

          It’s always a version of, “how many of them college girls are you dating at once… wink wink,” or “man I would give anything to be able to be back in college, If I knew then what I know now, hehehe, I would have a harem on campus”, I always think of please (rolling my eyes). I guess they just think I drive around campus with a Girls Gone Wild party bus or something,

           

          Plus EVERYONE has the same “when I was single” story (regardless of gender or age), they were a HUGE player when they were single with mountains of men/women chasing them, and they partied all day, had sex all night (though still finding time for church and visiting mom on the weekends).

           

          Funny thing is, it’s never the beautiful or handsome people who have these stories. (o_O)

        9. Adrian

          SMC,

          With me personally, I don’t have a problem with being asked if I have children, I believe in god, do I watch porn, or do I ever want to get married,

          BUT,

          On a first date there is more pressure I think. So it is more about tone and context.

           

          If you asked me now if I had any kids, I would calmly answer “No SMC, but call me tonight and I will sale you some” (^_^)

           

          But on a date most people are not asking due to simple curiosity, they are asking to interrogate, judge, or qualify you for a possible relationship. The wrong answer could mean you don’t even give me a chance. That is why Evan advises to wait until that person is more emotionally invested in you before revealing certain things.

           

          I also don’t like the question,”do you like kids?” What am I supposed to say, “Oh course I LOVE kids, why do you think I built a house made of gingerbread and installed a new oven.”

           

          Just be honest and ask do I have a problem dating a woman with kids? Which again, I would answer “Do you see this gingerbread house?”(^_^)

        10. Emily

          SMC,

          I don’t mind if someone asks me if I have kids or if I have been married. What I don’t like is being asked why. That seems pushy and invasive and is frankly not first-date conversation, which should center around your favorite movie and what you like to do for fun.

        11. Emily

          Adrian,

          Porno shows what should be. Not what is. The kind of older, wealthy woman who wants you for a pool boy is not going to look like Angelina Jolie!  (Or whatever older woman appeals to you. If you do in fact like older woman. Some men don’t. I’ve been joking that if Hillary wins, she should show up to Congress carried in on a palanquin, held up by shritless, tanned hunks. Turn sexism right on its head! )

          I get the same kind of stupid comments from people that you do. They assume that a single person with no kids must be partying every night and having all kinds of hot sex. It simply isn’t true.

          Anyway, if you are working and going to school you are probably too busy to date anyone right now. School is a lot of work and it is stressful.

           

           

        12. Henry

          But you’re not married now.

          Personally I think there’s something wrong with people who can’t make h marriages work. They have issues.

          but that’s just my opinion.

        13. GoWithTheFlow

          Emily,

          I’m also well into my 40s and never been married. Love your comeback to the question Why haven’t you married yet?  Mine is that I’m grateful that I did not make a bad marriage so I’m completely free to enter into a happy one.

  3. 3
    Kh77

    And I always laugh when I hear that women are likelier to die in a terrorist attack than get married over 40. Well, I’ve already been in the middle of a terrorist attack (a bombing that I escaped miraculously without injury) and I hit 40 next year, I guess I’m screwed! ;))

    1. 3.1
      Karl R

      Kk77 said:

      “And I always laugh when I hear that women are likelier to die in a terrorist attack than get married over 40.”

      Of the “Never Married” women in the 40-55 age range (in the 2000 census) approximately 17% got married (by the 2010 census).  During that same period, 3,044 U.S. citizen (both sexes, all ages, worldwide) died in terrorist attacks.  About 5,000 additional people in the U.S. died from lightning strikes during that decade.

      In addition, see Snopes.

       

      But never underestimate the power of quick, easy, completely unsupported and wildly inaccurate statistical “fact”.  Entire political campaigns are being built on them.

      1. 3.1.1
        MilkyMae

        1 out of 6 and I thought less than 50/50 was bad odds.

  4. 4
    ScottH

    I was discussing mid-life dating after divorce with a neighbor who is securely married.  She was telling me about her divorced friends who are dating and wondering where all the good guys are.  I was telling her my experiences and wondering where the sane women are.   Funny how we all think that we’re fine and everyone else is defective.

    I might actually have found a sane one from Match- we just passed the 5 month mark and I haven’t noticed even a hint of a red flag.  She was getting severely jaded about dating.   We’re still getting to know each other and taking things slowly.  I’m noticing something that is talked about in the book Attached- since she’s normal and not stimulating my attachment circuits like the crazy ones did, I don’t feel the same excitement about her but she’s great.  This is confusing.

    1. 4.1
      Kh77

      I’m curious about that myself, I feel like most men actually prefer the crazy unpredictable women and perhaps I’m too “normal”. A good insight into the male mind that there’s actually some truth to this. I’ll have to research that book.

      1. 4.1.1
        Adrian

        Kh77,

         

        The myth is men like crazy women (bitches) and women like bad boys.

         

        The truth is that both genders want a good partner, but they also want someone exciting.

         

        Most “moderately or averagely” attractive women and men who complain about being overlooked for the crazy, wild, or unstable boyfriend/girlfriend, don’t realize just how boring or prudish they appear to that person they want to date.

         

        Just find someone who doesn’t need that level of excitement.

         

        In the words of KK, I always pause when someone tells me about a long-term relationship with a crazy ex. Most emotionally healthy don’t have long term toxic relationships, Yet even emotionally healthy people detest boring relationships.

        1. Kh77

          I do think I’m an exciting person, I’m an artist and a free spirit, I even studied improv and am always told I’m funny and doing something unconventional. This translates into the physical as well, no prude here. I am full of passion. Maybe that’s boring to someone who associates “excitement” for craziness though. Looks wise I have no issue getting dates with attractive men but a month in I get this “chemistry” nonsense. Of course perhaps I’m biased but I really think I have quite a bit to offer someone. I think the men I’ve encountered just have a level of excitement that a “normal” girl is not going to sustain. I’m not going to go crazy on you. One guy told me about several exes who were crazy, one threw a lamp at him during an argument. These were girls he dated seriously. I don’t have time for that bs. This conversation is making me reevaluate the men I’m choosing and during my dating break I’m going to read that book.

          I hope these guys grow out of it, they are overlooking a lot of nice women while they chase this elusive excitement and then come back saying they got hurt (again).

          Part of me must be drawn to this for some reason, although I am very sane, I am picking these men who want something else. Maybe that book will shed some light so I can avoid picking out these crazy seekers in the future.

           

    2. 4.2
      AAORK

      Right there with you. Same experience, we’re at a year now and it’s going pretty well. Not terribly confusing though because she’s European and wasn’t raised in our caustic Westernized culture that tells women they “deserve the best” and can “have it all”. Turns out this makes a big difference.

    3. 4.3
      Stacy

      Scott,

      So glad you brought this up.  I am the most ‘normal’ the guy I am dating has dated (his claim anyway). He is 42. When he describes his ex, she was certifiably a basket case and he had to walk away when she started threatening suicide everytime he didnt call.  There are lots of advice and books (Why Men Love Bitches for instance) that advocate that a man (or woman but especially a man) should never feel that he fully ‘has’ you….that a woman should be a ‘good’ girlfriend but sometimes be unavailable or mysterious to promote building the tension that (according to the authors) allow people to feel chemistry.

      Frankly, I think it’s all rather exhausting tbh.  I dont like drama and I dont want to have to try to stimulate your adventurous side of you being drawn to uncertainty.  In fact, I would dare say that craziness and drama will push me away completely. I never want to guess  how my man feels and the man I am dating tells me everyday how he feels and I love it. But yes, a LOT of people are drawn to the crazy (both men and women) even when they claim the opposite.  Your post just reiterates this.

    4. 4.4
      Karmic Equation

      I was talking to a girl friend the other day about this. She told me she closed her POF and OKC accounts because she wasn’t getting quality guys to date. And the one guy who gave her “butterflies” wasn’t ready for a relationship so she was disappointed.

      That gave me the opening to tell her that relationships with butterfly-guys never work out. Simply because the butterflies go away once the “real” relationship gets started. And then most women (and maybe most men also) spend a lot of time angsting about how great it was at the beginning. I said to her, “The ‘beginning’ is NOT the real relationship. That was nature’s way of getting you hooked on the guy. The real relationship begins when you don’t feel the butterflies anymore.”

      I say that from experience. Because killjoy that I am, I force myself to ignore the butterflies and even try to kill them off proactively at the beginning of new relationships, going out of my way to look for flaws in a guy at the beginning. I’ve never dumped a guy after finding the flaws. It just helps bring HIM off the pedestal faster and I could evaluate the “real” him faster.

      I also told her the best relationships have no high-highs, no low-lows. Life throws you highs and lows, your guy is your rock, the one that you can depend on to be there during the lows, and who’s there to share your highs, not to create either.

      She nodded. Not sure she bought it though.

      The book Attached is great. Because it explained her romantic relationships to a T.

      It also explained why I’m usually lucky enough to be coupled up whenever I want to be. Being secure, I have a lot of patience with the high-drama guys, and a lot of appreciation for the “steady-eddies”. The high drama guy I dated last sure did fill my life with technicolor. But I didn’t trust that (nor him, really), so while I loved that ride, I didn’t want it to last forever.

      Current guy is a steady-eddie, but he has a flash temper. Gets really angry fast and 30 seconds later, he’s back to normal.

      That said, his exes in the past were almost all crazy, so I’m pretty sure HE’s feeling strange in this relationship because I’m not activating him. So life with me is NOT in technicolor. Time will tell.

       

      1. 4.4.1
        JB

        Karmic, many women that quit online dating because there’s no “quality guys” to date actually mean that there’s no men 3 notches above them that are interested in them. You know that though you’re a regular here…lol

        There is a shortage of a certain type of guy though. I’ve corresponded and met a few very attractive women who’s ex husbands had done very well for themselves becoming VP’s, CFO’s etc…. mid six figure incomes. Then they come on Match and POF and low and behold not only are none of THOSE men emailing them there aren’t even any on the sight! At least not in abundance or searchable. These women have taken down their profiles and continue to commiserate on their Facebook pages that ………… you guessed it. There’s no “quality men” on the internet.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Hi JB,

          I’ve seen the men my friend is interested in. To me, they’re in her league. She’s average to below average looking, btw. But very sweet. From the descriptions of the men she’s dated, she’s met quite a few insecure types (wanting instant relationship) and some flat out liar/players.

          I think her “picker” may be off, as in giving chances to the wrong guys. That said, I don’t think she’s that picky. But she happens to end up finding men with issues as opposed to “normal” guys.

        2. FG

          I call it the “big fish” catch. They got lucky once when younger, in terms of landing a top-earner, although something was not quite right since they ended up getting divorced. 70% of divorces are initiated by women, or so says Psych Today.
          Repeating the exploit is much more difficult as they grow older, so they have to “settle” for smaller fish unless they are wealthy of their own making and keep within certain richer social circles.
          Had  contact with a very pretty 50+ online. We spent a lot of time on the phone, but when time came to meet, I actually desisted. Like I told her “Well, thinking about everything you said, I reached the conclusion that either your dad was a physician…” and for those in the know, there is such a type akin to princess / daddy’s girl, though not ALL medical doctor’s daughters are so afflicted, “…or your ex was an MD, or both!”. All this to say that very many high-maintenance red flags were raised along the way. And in the end, it sounded like way more trouble than it was worth.

      2. 4.4.2
        Kh77

        I’ve definitely encountered these guys, things are great, there is attraction and they’ve even told me how calm and not crazy I was (which I took as a compliment but maybe it’s a red flag that these guys  are not only accustomed to that but like it on some level). Then they say there is no “chemistry” after a month and then proceed to date someone who is more “unattainable” (and then sometimes they have come back complaining about getting hurt by these same woman). I’m going to read that book and see what I learn from it. I was taking it personally but perhaps it’s the way these men are wired and short of faking craziness they never would have maintained any healthy interest.

      3. 4.4.3
        Joe

        Aren’t butterflies indicative of nerves?  Why would you want to be nervous all the time?

        1. Emily

          No, they are indicative of physical attraction and chemistry. Excitement, and they can be very addictive.

    5. 4.5
      Emily

      Scott,

      I am going through the same thing. I have been asked out by and started communication (texts) with a man I work with. He seems perfectly pleasant. There were no red flags that told me I shouldn’t say yes to the date, but I feel very “meh” about it. I feel no sense of excitement in dating him. And yet … the ones I am excited about are erratic.

      1. 4.5.1
        Emily, the original

        Emily,

        I feel no sense of excitement in dating him. And yet … the ones I am excited about are erratic.

        Yes. GoWiththeFlow hit the nail on the head. It’s partial positive reinforcement. Our brains are wired to enjoy the dopamine hits that come from an unpredictable partner. It’s partly based on survival, as we are as a species always looking out for things that may harm us.

    6. 4.6
      GoWithTheFlow

      The reason men get hooked on crazies and women fall for bad boys is inconsistent intermittent reward.  The same phenomenon is responsible for gambling addiction.

      You just know you will get rewarded if you keep pulling the lever on the slot machine.  But, you don’t know how many tries it will take so you just keep going.  Then, whoopee! You win $122 on the slots.  So you start again pulling the lever.  Not only do you know there’s a potential reward there, but you’ve experienced it, so you’re even more motivated to keep going.

      1. 4.6.1
        ScottH

        how much intermittent reward should we have in our relationships? I got dumped last night because she wasn’t feeling “it” and mentioned that there was no drama in our relationship.

        1. GoWithTheFlow

          ScottH,

          I’m sorry for the hurt.  Getting dumped is never fun, even when you know it isn’t working out.    She sounds like a drama queen.  What is healthy is consistent reward. Feeling consistently loved, supported, and appreciated.  The occasional surprise or kind gestures wonderful, but drama?  No.

        2. Emily, the original

          ScottH

          how much intermittent reward should we have in our relationships?

          I think, in the first few weeks, there has to be a happy medium between showing too much interest and not showing enough. I’m not saying you are doing this, but you don’t want to act like she’s completely won you over right away. You like her, you’re showing interest but you aren’t handing over the whole kit and caboodle immediately. You’re discovering who she is, just like you would a friend. I have a friend who is dating a man who told her, after date 2, that he was taking down his profile. He also questioned her as to why she was still on the dating site. That is, in my opinion, too much too soon.

        3. Gala

          Jeremy: attachment style is a continuum, not a discrete set of categories where you are either one or the other. The same person can exhibit secure and anxious attachment styles with different partners. So, nobody is immune from falling for “the crazy”. In fact, I submit that given some level of initial interest, any man or woman can be driven insane and reduced to dust by a hot/cold person who knows what they are doing (and I do believe that some of those people show highly controlled “crazy” behavior, they know it’s effective in controlling their partner)

      2. 4.6.2
        Persephone

        GWTF, This is a good description. It answers a question that I asked on the thread that Evan has entitled something like “5  Ways To Make a Man Fall In Love.” I had asked a question of why some men seem to fall for the crazy women and marry them, knowing before they get married that the woman is crazy. Bingo! You answered it. I think that you are spot-on.

        1. Tom10

          @ Persephone #4.6.2
          “I had asked a question of why some men seem to fall for the crazy women and marry them, knowing before they get married that the woman is crazy”
           
          GoWithThe Flow #4.6
          “The reason men get hooked on crazies and women fall for bad boys is inconsistent intermittent reward.  The same phenomenon is responsible for gambling addiction.”
           
          I disagree.
           
          The reason men get hooked on crazies and women fall for bad boys is because those “crazy women” and “bad boys” are higher-quality/hotter/more charismatic/smarter etc. than average “sane women” and average “good boys”. I.e. they are hooked in spite of the bad behavior not because of it.
           
          Women who behave like crazies only do so because they can afford to. I.e. because they know that there are so many men out there out there who will tolerate their behavior in exchange for access to her looks/charisma.
           
          Similarly, men who behave like bad boys only do so because they can afford to. I.e. because they know that there are so many women out there who will tolerate their behavior in exchange for access to his looks/charisma.
           
          Trust me, an average female crazy or an average bad boy will be a very lonely person indeed.
           
          However, only an average man or woman would tolerate this behavior from the opposite sex as people who have better options (i.e. higher-quality people) simply don’t have to; they can meet equally attractive men/women who aren’t crazy.
           
          Therefore, whenever one meets a crazy woman or a bad boy it is incumbent to move-along promptly as tolerating such behavior indicates that you don’t perceive yourself as a high-quality person who deserves proper treatment. Furthermore, people who date you will pick-up on this perception and recalibrate how they treat you based on this.
           
          And voila; no-more crazies or bad-boys in your life anymore!

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Tom, for the win. I PUT UP with crazy. I never craved it. Most women don’t LIKE assholes. They PUT UP with them because of attraction, wealth, intelligence, etc. This isn’t that complicated, y’all.

        3. Persephone

          Evan & GWTF, While that very well may be one answer, it’s not the answer to all or even a greater percentage of the situations, but I think you’re definitely on to something. I haven’t seen where all these crazy women are any more charismatic or beautiful then the average person, but I’ve seen where a small number of them are. I can think of one example in my local area, in particular. She’s quite charismatic. She’s trying real hard to be beautiful after her lap band surgery, and surgery to remove the excess skin. I don’t know where she got the money to do all this but she’s doing it. She’s quite fun, but I can’t keep up with her drinking. Everyone around here  knows she’s crazy. Even us women that put up with her because of her charisma. The thing is, the men know she’s crazy. She’s infamous for yelling at her husband, now divorced, right there in front of God and everybody. Yes, I’m not doubting that there are circumstances like that that exist. But it’s not explaining all of the circumstances, in my opinion. Some of these women have the personalities of a rock, and only marginally beautiful because of good hair maintenance and makeup.

           

        4. Tom10

          @ Persephone #4.6.2
          “I can think of one example in my local area, in particular. She’s quite charismatic…She’s infamous for yelling at her husband”,
           
          “now divorced”,
           
          Well, there’s a surprise…
           
          “right there in front of God and everybody”.
           
          You just made my point; only a chump would tolerate being abused in public by his partner.
           
          So crazy behavior might successfully enable one to marry, and then divorce, a chump, however, in order to access higher-quality men it is inadvisable to behave as a crazy woman. Lol.

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Tom,

          The psychological phenomenon of intermittent inconsistent reward explains the brain chemical process behind WHY people “put up” with crazies or assholes.  The behavior loops into their brain’s dopamine reward system.  The man puts up with the crazy behavior because he knows if he hangs in there, his brain will get a huge hit of dopamine and norepinephrine when the woman shows him attention, affection, or other ego-reinforcing behavior.

          As far as to whether only really good looking, high SMV people can get away with being difficult partners, I’m not so sure.  I’ve commented a few times on other posts how I’ve seen some very handsome with-it men put up with an awful lot of crazy for some quite unremarkable women, in looks and in personality and accomplishments.  Somewhere recently I theorized that maybe this is because the non-crazy partner subconsciously views the crazy behavior as an demonstration of their high value.  “If she would leave me if I went on my buddy’s bachelor weekend trip, it must be because she has lots of options and can replace me easily.”

        6. Tom10

          Hey GWtF
           
          I always enjoy your contributions. 😉
           
          “The psychological phenomenon of intermittent inconsistent reward explains the brain chemical process behind WHY people “put up” with crazies or assholes.  The behavior loops into their brain’s dopamine reward system.”
           
          I think I see where you’re going with this; it’s not so much the actual *person* that explains why people tolerate crazies or assholes, rather the “dopamine hit” that said crazies or assholes somehow trigger.
           
          As an analogy, I remember when I was very young in bars and spent an inordinate amount of brain-power/energy thinking about how to bed women. Interestingly, once I actually managed to succeed the resultant sex was often/usually merely perfunctory; the actual buzz came from the chase, not the sex itself. However, it was only because my draw for sex was so intense in the first place, and the struggle with learning how to attain it, that subsequently generated the buzz. If that powerful draw wasn’t there in the first place then I’d have no motivation to invest in pursuing the buzz.
           
          So there has to be something intoxicating about the “crazies” or “assholes” in the first place powerful enough to generate the buzz. And the “something intoxicating” is, in my opinion, usually a fairly banal attraction trigger such as looks/charisma/smarts etc. YMMV.
           
          “As far as to whether only really good looking, high SMV people can get away with being difficult partners, I’m not so sure.  I’ve commented a few times on other posts how I’ve seen some very handsome with-it men put up with an awful lot of crazy for some quite unremarkable women, in looks and in personality and accomplishments”. 
           
          I remember having a discussion with Emily, the original some time ago where she pointed out that so much of how I value/rate people is based on just their appearance. And she had a valid point; it’s a particular flaw of mine. So I’m now thinking that SMV is an inherently flawed way to value people, as it is so singular in focus. And that, in reality, when valuing others we subconsciously assess a vast array of their qualities and then roll them altogether, rather than just their sexual market value.
           
          I hereby declare the concept of SMV as obsolete and propose “complete package value” as an alternative from now on. Or CPV. It even has a nice ring to it. Lol. 🙂
           
          So using this redefined understanding of a person’s value then my original point stands; “crazy women” and “bad boys” can only manifest such behavior with people of lower CPV than themselves as, by definition, higher-quality people simply won’t tolerate it.
           
          In fact you said something similar: “maybe this is because the non-crazy partner subconsciously views the crazy behavior as an demonstration of their high value
           
          “If she would leave me if I went on my buddy’s bachelor weekend trip, it must be because she has lots of options and can replace me easily.”
           
          Confident secure people don’t think like that. Because even if their partner leaves or cheats they know they can also find an equal replacement just as easily.
           
          So to answer Persephone’s question; “why some men seem to fall for the crazy women and marry them, knowing before they get married that the woman is crazy” I stand by my original answer; men fall for crazy women because a) they value those women as higher-quality (in whatever criteria he specifically values, usually looks) than average sane women and b) because he doesn’t believe he’s good enough to find an equally amazing woman who’s also sane (i.e. he’s a chump).

        7. Emily, the original

          Hi Thomas10

          The people who provide dopamine highs are inconsistent. Sometimes they are nice, sometimes they aren’t; sometimes they show up; sometimes they blow you off. So when they do give you attention, you are elated. (OMG, they called me! They’re here! Everything is fabulous!) But when they blow you off, you feel bad. Really bad. I think if men value women who are inconsistent, it’s not because the women are hotter. It’s that these men crave the dopamine high, and a person who is consistent can’t provide that by the very nature of their behavior. Sometimes people are hot and cold with you deliberately. They aren’t necessarily crazy, and people who like them aren’t necessarily lower quality. They just have to wean themselves from the dopamine high and realize that a consistent partner will provide them with something different.

          I remember having a discussion with Emily, the original some time ago where she pointed out that so much of how I value/rate people is based on just their appearance. And she had a valid point; it’s a particular flaw of mine. So I’m now thinking that SMV is an inherently flawed way to value people
          Bless your heart. I have changed my mind about a dating issue myself. About men having to pay all the time. If they are dating several times a week, it’s not reasonable to expect them to always foot the bill. I have two friends on match. They date a lot and have no problem paying their way.

        8. Gala

          Ladies (GoWithTheFlow et al) are right on the money here. “Crazy” people are like drugs. This is why men stay with crazy women even when they are objectively blah (not at all superior from the SMV perspective) and this is why women stay in abusive relationships and come back to husbands that beat them. Because these people provide emotional highs that are much higher than an average person can provide. In other words, when it’s good it’s really good. Really, really goood.  It when it’s bad it’s awful, but you always wait for the “good” part and not willing to let go. May be even hoping against hope that if only you do something different this time (not trigger them), the “good” will last forever.  Of course it never does. This has nothing to do with objective desirability of a crazy man or woman. They sink their hooks into their partners and keep them hooked on this roller coaster of emotions.

        9. Jeremy

          To add another perspective to this, consider attachment theory.  A secure person would never tolerate inconsistent behavior.  But an anxious person would – in fact, it would fit perfectly into an anxious person’s world-view.  Such people believe, deep down, that they are unworthy and that they have to earn a relationship.  So when a person mis-treats them they often feel like they deserve mis-treatment.  When a person treats them well, they feel they must have done something right – hence the dopamine rush.

           

          A secure person does not tolerate this.  It isn’t about his/her SMV (or CMV 🙂  ), it’s about attachment style.  Of course, a secure person dating someone of much higher SMV might become insecure…

        10. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Such people believe, deep down, that they are unworthy and that they have to earn a relationship.  So when a person mis-treats them they often feel like they deserve mis-treatment.  When a person treats them well, they feel they must have done something right – hence the dopamine rush.

          I think you are reading too much into it. Some people just dig the dopamine rush. It doesn’t mean they feel unworthy of being treated well. I have a  guy friend who has been married to his wife for years. They have a good marriage. He has no interest in leaving, but he has been very honest with me in saying that sometimes, if the opportunity has been there, he’s had sexual affairs with other women. He’s a successful, confident person and he just digs the rush of some “strange” every now and then.

           

           

        11. Jeremy

          Honestly, Emily, I don’t think I’m reading too much into it.  I know people like the man you described and I agree with you that they just like novelty.  That is not the phenomenon I was describing.  The phenomenon was regarding the spouse of such a person – why someone might tolerate such behavior, should they discover it.  Why someone might tolerate being treated badly occasionally with intermittent reward thrown in.  Why someone might be drawn to that sort of partner.  Dopamine is part of it, but dopamine is simply a craving/reward system.  In order for those wires to form, there must be a concept of craving/reward for that behavior in the first place.  For all of my history of anxious attachment (see comment at end of this thread), I do not crave mistreatment, nor do I get off on intermittent reward.  I would not say or think that someone who treats me well all the time must be low-value.

        12. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          The phenomenon was regarding the spouse of such a person – why someone might tolerate such behavior, should they discover it.  

          Are you talking about my friend’s wife? I don’t know what kind of arrangement they have. Maybe she cheats, too.

          I would not say or think that someone who treats me well all the time must be low-value.

          I wouldn’t say that, either. I also think, as you have written about on other posts, that some people crave comfort over arousal qualities. I’ve done it both ways. I had two boyfriends in college. One was very consistent and honest. The relationship was fulfilling. I felt content in that relationship. The one after that was inconsistent. It was not a healthy relationship … but, man oh man, did he set the standard for hot sex. If I could have combined the two, I might have had something!

  5. 5
    Stacy

    Evan,

    Look at this data…

    In darn near every state in the United States ( with the exception of 2), there are more single women than single men…let’s examine the ages from 31 and up…only two states have more men than women.That ALONE puts men at a distinct advantage.  Of course, there are many other reasons why I believe this but this is a start.

    I know you like statistics so I thought I’d send.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      You’re not dating millions of men. You need ONE. So to say that there are 33% more female college graduates? Yeah, and? The fact is that there’s a lid for every (sane, stable, communicative) pot. If you haven’t found your lid, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough, not learning from your experiences, not dating frequently, not opening up to new men, etc. Your attitude should be, “If I can get a new date every Friday night, eventually I’ll find a boyfriend,” rather than, “There’s fewer men on a national scale. I might as well complain or give up.”

    2. 5.2
      Karl R

      Stacy said:

      “In darn near every state in the United States ( with the exception of 2), there are more single women than single men.”

      Interesting map.

      What I find more interesting is that you reported on the ratio with college degrees … and you completely ignored the ratio with no degrees.  It’s like that 60% to 70% of the population didn’t exist.  You didn’t even mention them.

      1. 5.2.1
        Adrian

        Obsidian,

         

        From my limited understanding of the problems women have in dating.

         

        Stacy will be just fine, actually better than fine (she already has a boyfriend). There is more than one Stacy who post, so I could be speaking of the wrong one, but I remember her describing herself as educated, attractive, with an athletically toned body.

         

        My point is, most women who are not even on Stacy’s level, have a plethora of men trying to date them, if anything, their only problem is finding someone who they find equally mentally, physically, and morally attractive.

         

        Notice most women complain that players, married men, liars, game players, emotionally unavailable, indecisive, guys who only want sex, and really young men always contact them or approach them; women are socially polite, so they usually use no chemistry to describe overweight or unattractive men.

         

        But what do men complain about, a lack of female attention.

         

        Most women don’t struggling finding a man, most women struggle finding a man that she wants in return.

         

        That’s “my understanding of” women’s problem, trying to find a man with equal amounts of all three qualities, and that is what Evan is always preaching, focus on the guy with more in the moral category than the physical or mental. If women didn’t want a man with all three, and just focused on the physical like many men, Evan would be out of a job and you and I would have nothing to talk about.

         

        I’ll be the first to admit that women struggle with dating as we men do, but from my understanding of Evan’s teachings, the cause is largely self imposed (though I DON’T feel they should ever force themselves to date someone they aren’t attracted to).

         

        So I doubt Stacy needs your sympathy about her dating life.

      2. 5.2.2
        Stacy

        Obsidian, actually no, a college degrees guy does not matter to me and the guy I am currently dating does not have one.I only picked out those numbers in the chart randomly because when I went to the site, I just chose an age group without adding a bunch of filters.

        Also, sorry to burst your bubble that only white women seem to have mating value because I am BLACK. But hey, you described us as ‘park apes’ without knowing me. Funny that the statistics on black men are gloomy especially in co.prison to black women…have you watched the news lately?Have you seen the jail statistics…have you seen the education statistics as far as black men vs black women…how black men leave their children….but still, I will not lump all of them together because I also happen to know great male black role models.

        And by the way, I am pursued by both black and white men in droves because aside from the physical traits  (and no,I am not light skinned), I am a damn good person (not to mention a hell of a cook). But you continue seeing the world from.just your side of things.Frankly, I feel sorry for you.BUT hey, keep doing ‘you’ since you’re so happy.Obviously you can’t get the white women you want because they don’t see your ‘high value’ and so you continue to sleep with the ‘park apes’ of the world but you’re so ‘happy’. Yes, keep trying to convince yourself.

      3. 5.2.3
        Rebeccca

        The map pushes that.  You don’t even have the option of looking at the map without education being factored in.

      4. 5.2.4
        GoWithTheFlow

        I have always found the idea that college educated women want to exclusively pair with only college educated men a little bit problematic.  A lot of female dominated professions require a  degree;  teaching, nursing, social work.  While the training for a lot of male dominated fields is done outside of a bachelor’s  degree program;  police, firefighter, career military, construction trades.

        I come from a family where over half the women go into teaching, yet their husbands don’t have college degrees.  So when the Datenomics book came out, I read all of the reviews thinking, well, duh!  Many, many college educated women marry non-college educated men.  Our teacher mom always told my sister and I that we needed to go to college more than a man does because men have more options for better paying jobs outside of college than women do.  (And yes i know there are women police officers and combat pilots.  This was in the 1970s and my mom’s advice reflected the world that was at that time.)

    3. 5.3
      AAORK

      Stacy, hopefully by now you realize that your post only re-affirms that women who insist on arbitrary “must haves” (like this data point you cling to) are only self-filtering themselves out of finding happiness with a good man.

      1. 5.3.1
        Stacy

        Forgive my typos…my iPhone is killer.

    4. 5.4
      ScottH

      There’s something fishy about that map.  Doing a visual integration of both degree’d and non-degree’d maps, there are lots more single women than men overall.  Something doesn’t add up.

      Data and statistics are like a bikini- what it shows is interesting but it covers up the best parts.

    1. 6.1
      Karmic Equation

      Very interesting.

      I clicked on the “No Degree” filter and magically, some places on the map turned blue (indicating more favorable ratios of men to women).

      My take away is that the requirement for a degree in men is the (like the filter shows) the one requirement that limits women’s dating pool.

      I understand that a degree is proxy for a lot things, wealth, status, and intelligence for most women. But wealth, status, and intelligence doesn’t ensure that the guy will change the baby’s diaper in the middle of the night. Character and compatibility should always count more.

    2. 6.2
      Chance

      The ratios are pretty close in the populated areas.  Plus, you have a qualifier that paints a skewed picture:  a college degree.  While it is true that more women have degrees than men, most women have degrees in a field of study that either isn’t very useful or doesn’t lead to a financially lucrative career.  Most STEM degrees are awarded to men.

      1. 6.2.1
        Rebeccca

        Love the statistics game –

        It’s only recently (2014) according to http://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attainment-of-college-diploma-or-higher-by-gender/ that a higher percentage or women than men had college degrees and only by 1/10 of 1%.

        I think what those maps are showing us is that college educated men were much more willing to marry women without degrees than the other way around.  Another data point that fails to shoot down the old evolutionary biology trope about men selecting on physical beauty and women selecting on socio-economic status.

  6. 7
    AAORK

    Lonely guy, meet lonely girl. Oh and by the way (based on the comments in the article), she’s unsympathetic to your pain.

    Side note: I have a personal connection to this issue. My nephew (28) lives in NYC, he’s good looking (yes, he is), in excellent shape, has a PhD in Comp Sci and banks 270K+/yr. He would totally relate to this article because it’s utter hell for him to sustain (much less even get) the attention of girls his age. So, what’s his problem? He’s “only” 5-9. An extenuating problem is his limited dating experience, having been committed to education up until three or so years ago, but he’s fixing that. Every time we discuss this subject, he reminds me how the girls flat out tell him them they want someone taller. He even tries to make light of it by saying he’s a solid member of the “invisibles” club but I can see it hurts him deeply. Meanwhile, these girls are all chasing the same top 10%-er’s (who themselves are having an absolute BALL pumpin-n-dumpin) so it’s hard to have any sympathy for them or their resulting jaded attitudes later in life. Instead, my sympathy lies with my nephew (and all the other guys like him). It seems the only positive from the current culture is a solid business model for Evan and his peers. And from what I see, the future looks bright for their profession.

     

    1. 7.1
      Karmic Equation

      Don’t worry too much for your nephew, AAORK.

      When he hits 35, the world will be his oyster, and the women who ignore him now, will wonder where all the good men went and would salivate to date him.

      That said, he shouldn’t give up now. The worst that can happen is that he grows a thicker skin from the rejections. The best is that some gem of a girl will snap him up 🙂

      Oh, yeah, and make sure to tell him to try dating the 6s and 7s, not just the 8-9-10s. At 20-something the female 8-9-10s can and will be extraordinarily picky. They’re they buyers in a buyers market. And they’re very likely to be divas. The 6-7s will be better partner material.

      1. 7.1.1
        Adrian

        Karmic Equation,

         

        Based off what you said, do you believe that the reason most men and women are so picky when they get older is because they are still operating as if they are still 7s, 8s and 9s in their 40s, like they were in their 20s?

         

        Because honestly with so many people being single, I can’t think of another reason why so many people say they struggle to find just one person attractive when they are older.

         

        I have seen many men and women who look very attractive for their age in my opinion, but the keywords are “for their age.”

         

        So I am wondering, do the 9s at age 20 remain 9s at age 40?

         

        If so, then are they single because they are too picky?

         

        But if their rating goes down with age, then, are they still under the illusion that they are still a 9 compared to the 20 year old man or woman who is a 9?

         

        Which is higher on the dating market, a 20 year old 7 or a 40 year old 9?

         

        If the 9 is higher, then why does everyone always scream about ageism with dating?

         

        Does that answer change depending of if you are speaking of a 20 vs 40 year old male, or a 20 vs 40 year old female?

         

        Why not be satisfied being a 9 compared to other 40 plus men or women? Why care if some men or women prefer the 20 year old 7? Or is this mostly a female problem in dating?

      2. 7.1.2
        AAORK

        Karmic, yep and that’s what I tell him every time which I think helps a little, but .. he also knows that back in the day when I was his age, I was ‘that guy’ he despises today for getting an unfair amount of attention at his expense (I’m 6-2). Now if I had been banking what he does now, I would have been especially dangerous to the ladies. ;-P

        Back to point. I’ve spent enough time with him to know he doesn’t chase after the 9’s or 10’s. He doesn’t trust them and knows he’s “invisible” to them anyways. I’d say he bats in his ‘league’ as it were. He’s quite mature (and damn intelligent) and looking forward, he does want marriage and kids but he’s also very sensitive to protecting his wealth position and is fully aware of a divorce court system that is not friendly to men like him who make the mistake of investing in someone who just happens to wake up one day and decide they’re “just not happy anymore” (to the detractors out there, no a premarital is not sufficient).

        Seeing as his father (my brother) passed a few years ago (way too early), all I can do is be there to support and advise him.

        1. Chance

          Good man, AAORK.  Your nephew is right at the age where his fortunes will change because many women’s preferences change at around 28 (as I’m sure you know). Also, if he’s worried about the consequences of marriage and divorce, I would suggest that he should attempt to simply search for someone who is okay with having a life partner outside of the legal construct of marriage.  This is what I have done… been with my partner for over 5 yrs and I have no intention of leaving.  It works for us as there is no difference between us and a married couple except we haven’t mixed finances.

           

          Now, will this limit his dating options?  Sure, but I consider it to be the best “natural filter”, if you will.  The reason being is because any woman who balks at this kind of arrangement is has just shown her hand.  This type of woman is looking for the kind of  provisioning that can only be assured through the legalities of marriage.

        2. Christine

          AAORK, at least your nephew is still young, so he has plenty of time to find the right lady.  It also sounds like he’s got a lot going for him!  Is he really not the top 10%?  Then what is the top 10%?  Being good-looking, educated, banking $270K…but also being six feet and above?  What difference does a few inches make?

           

        3. Rebeccca

          Maybe showing my gender bias on the divorce thing, but knowing that women (and children) are much more likely to live in poverty after divorce than their exes, I have a hard time being terribly sympathetic to this view.  If he can name his wealth as one of the big advantages he brings to the relationship, why should he expect to keep all of it and leave her with nothing in the chance that they break up?  Women who bring youthful beauty to their relationships don’t get it back at the breakup after years of marriage.

          Seems to me you invest in a relationship and take a chance on being a team, or you aren’t really willing to give yourself to a marriage.

        4. GoWithTheFlow

          AAORK

          Regarding your nephew:

          “. . .he’s also very sensitive to protecting his wealth position. . .”

          There’s a cure for that.  Advise him to pay attention to what education, job, and financial assets a woman has.  Whenever I hear men say they don’t care what a woman does for a living (like it’s a good thing) I want to say, well you should!”  Outside of divorce being costly, people die.  It’s a good thing if both spouses, as individuals, can financially support their kids, so in the event one passes away, the kids will be financially taken care of.

           

    2. 7.2
      ahimsa

      not surprising at all-if your nephew is having such a hard time being young,  good looking, at the average height of 5’9″ and earning in the top 2%, just try to imagine what it is like for older, average looking,  5’7″ or shorter men who are not wealthy.

      despite the constant rhetoric of “if you are not having success you are doing something wrong or are not trying hard enough”, there is a segment of the population who because of our genes and despite all of our efforts, either have to settle for someone we are not attracted to or just accept being alone.  just wish i would have realized this many years ago and avoided the false hope, constant failure and rejection all together.

      1. 7.2.1
        Adrian

        Ahimsa,

         

        This has been discussed over a thousand times on this site.

         

        Basically short, average-looking, mid to low income, older looking men have little value on the dating market, but they all want women with high value.

         

        No, they all don’t want women who are 9s, but they want attractive 6s and 7s, but those women have options and value in the dating world, and they exercise those options by dating as high up as they can.

         

        Yet those men feel it is unfair for women who can date men that are 7s or higher to reject them for superficial reasons, yet those same men reject women who are on their same level and feel it is justified (you know the story, overweight men looking down on overweight women, men who are 4s in looks, looking upon women who are 4s with disgust and arrogance).

         

        The kicker is that, almost EVERYONE feels like they are at least a 6 or 7 in looks, so everyone feels they are justified with not dating men or women who are the 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s of the dating world.

        …   …   …

        The most common “superficial” reasons women reject men:

        > Looks

        > Height

        > being overweight

        > Lack of education

        > low levels of personal and financial success by a certain age

        > age (only if he looks old, not the number)

         

        Most common “superficial” reason men reject women:

        > being overweight

        > looks

        > age (only if she looks old, not the #)

        1. Adrian

          Ah Obsidian,

          We both know that no matter what I say you will completely disagree with it. (^_^)

           

          Then you’ll say that I haven’t shown you any real evidence to prove my point, and around and around we’ll go. You often use anecdotal evidence to support your claims, yet you don’t accept the same from others. If someone doesn’t show you an insurmountable amount of statistical evidence, you scoff at it.

           

          This is why to everyone else, Evan, Karl R and many others have successfully refuted many of your claims, but to you they have “failed to address, answer, or disprove your argument (you usually always use some variation of these three words).”

           

          The second part of that is, you only hear what you want to hear. No, it’s more like you only acknowledge what you want to acknowledge. So no matter what Evan or Karl R has said, you always reply with “you have failed to address, answer, disprove, etc.”

           

          And this question from you who, told Karl R in another post just a last week that women “only” need to look good and date down!

           

          What would a woman who is a 7 and can date other 7s, 8s and 9s get out of dating a 4? Since as you said, “It seems clear to me that such a would not be happy with him.”

          …   …   …

          But even though I know answering you is like pouring water on a duck’s back (because it just rolls off).

           

          To answer your question, many guys who are lonely and want a deep love & friendship but also sex, would be better off dating a woman who does want him, than being alone; so if he can only get 5s, he should make the best out of the fact that someone does want him.

           

          If he feels no attraction for her, than he can continue to chase 8s, maybe get one, maybe not, or he can accept the love that is being offered to him.

           

          Now, knowing you, that thought disgust you, but I would advise you to remember, that no advice fits all people, so this will only work for men who CAN’T date more attractive women and who are willing to take a chance and forgo their pride.

           

          Oh wait, that reminds me of the third flaw with conversing with you, you will hear Evan, or Karl R admitting that their advice is ubiquitous, so it may not apply to many niche groups or situations, but you will still cry FOUL because the advice doesn’t fit your specific cause.

        2. Rebeccca

          I can’t imagine dating someone I’m not attracted to.  That’s kinda the difference between friendship and dating, I think.  But I can’t for the life of me figure out why I can’t be attracted to someone just because there are _more_ physically attractive people in the world.  That attitude just seems like a self-defeating entitlement.  Maybe I should say this on the thread about needing your man to think you’re the most beautiful woman in the world.

          I’m not the most beautiful woman in the world.  My boyfriend is not the most gorgeous man on the planet.  But somehow my husband, who was several notches above me in the looks department, seemed very much attracted to me.  And I have no desire to “trade up” on my boyfriend, even if Taye Diggs asked me out.

        3. Sally

          Obsidan, I’m really trying to understand what your point is here.

          You say that not all men have an equal advantage in dating. Men who don’t have the checklist criteria of a college education, a high income, physical attractiveness, charisma, and or coming from the mainstream culture for lack of a better term are disadvantaged.

          I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

          Then you say that we should all feel sorry for these men because their only options are women who don’t meet men’s checklist criteria of young, thin, and beautiful. For women who don’t fit that criteria you seem to hold a lot of vitriol and resentment.

          To put it in simpler terms, you seem to be projecting yourself as say a 5 for arguments sake but are angry, not just that 8s and 9s turn you down but that women who are 5s have the audicity to even speak to you let alone want to pursue a relationship with you.

          You want sympathy for male 5s while wanting the freedom to discriminate against and verbally trash female 5s. Right?

          OK. I find that hypocrisy morally objectionable, but that is your right to hold those views.

          It is also your right to reject those 5s and hold out for 8s and 9s if that’s what you want. There’s nothing wrong with that and I doubt anyone would say otherwise. You may be putting yourself in an extremely limiting situation but again that is your right to do so.

          Is it that you want acceptance from Evan’s readers of your choice to ignore 5s and pursue 8s and 9s? You don’t need our approval but go for it! I wish you luck.

          Is it that you want the 5s you deem not worthy of you that you complain won’t leave you alone to stop pursuing you? There’s an easy solution for that. Stop interacting with these women if you don’t want them. Problem solved.

          Is it that you want us to say that as a self proclaimed blue collar African American man that such men are just as worthy of love and dating options as anyone else? Again few would disagree with that providing they are not bigots.

          Is it that you want us to join in your bashing of African American women? If so you’ve come to the wrong site. I’m sure you can find a site with likeminded bigots who will commiserate all the live long day with you about this topic.

          Beyond that I really don’t understand what you’re doing here.

        4. Adrian

          Obsidian,

          For what it’s worth I don’t dislike you (I actually believe that you were not trying to be racist with the park ape comment), and I do enjoy some of the controversy you bring, it’s just your adjectives that drives everyone away.

           

          Have you seen the Key and Peele sketch about texting? Maybe you are right, you are not angry and we are all incorrect for perceiving it that way, or maybe you are angry and it is you who can not see it.

           

          Most times I do intentionally not respond to your challenges, because, as I said, I feel like they would be a waste of time. But I won’t speak about that topic anymore; say what you will about Karl R, but he is the only person who admitted to enjoying going back and forth with you.

          …   …   …

          I am curious about the book you quoted, I would like your perspective on two questions regarding what you said the book stated about the desires of women.

           

          1). What did the author mean by women desire age? I stated above that from my observation most women desire men their own age, but with youthful faces, is that what the author meant?

           

          I ask because from my observation, women like young acting (not immature) men with youthful faces (not looking like he is a old man); but those same women seem to recoil in disgust when a younger guy contacts them online, so I am curious about what did the book mean when it stated women desire age.

           

          2). Many women say attraction is also very important to them, why didn’t the author (in your opinion) list attraction as something women want? Most of the books that I have read on this subject all leave that out, and yet I don’t think one women in the world would date a guy she was not attracted to even if he had all the qualities you listed.

        5. EAK

          so adrian if a white guy posted here and called black women park apes would you be so forgiving? maybe you don’t known that black people have been called apes and gorillas as racists insults to imply they’re subhuman for a long time and it’s deeply hurtful to a lot of people.

        6. Adrian

          EAK,

          Race has nothing to do with it. I never said I condone how he describes women, I just said that I believe him when he said he did not mean that comment in a racist way.

           

          Why? Because, love him or hate him, Obsidian is consident, and he has never taken back, denied, or tried to clean up one of his statements, no matter how others saw it, or attacked him for it.

           

          Also, he has always come off (to me) as being unhappy with the power dynamic of women in the dating world, how though they have most of the power, they still get catered to and treated like victims. Therefore women use this to get away with treating men badly in the dating game.

           

          But I have never heard him say or gotten the impression that he hates all black people…

           

          But

           

          I don’t know, I’m a bad person to ask when it comes to Obsidian, because sometimes he seems so sharply analytical, sometimes he seems so angry, sometimes he seems so willing to politely discuss a topic, sometimes he seems so misogynistic, sometimes he seems like a champion of the “male” underdogs in the dating world, sometimes he seems to have disgust for women, especially African American women (in the dating world) and sometimes he seems so righteously indignant like everyone toward the hierarchy of our dating culture.

           

          Though his negative attributes out number his positive ones on this site, so normally I just avoid talking to him about issues.

        7. EAK

          “Race has nothing to do with it.”

          for you Adrian. but you have the luxury of being able to believe that.

           

        8. Sally

          Obsidian, you can question my reading comprehension skills all you want, but try to be objective and non combative for a second and consider this.

          I would bet that you fancy yourself as an influential voice and thought leader in your area of specialization. The constant links to your YouTube monologues in every one of your posts are a dead give away. You want listeners. You want supporters. You want people to buy into your message. Right?

          Then you need to understand that effective influencers and communicators ultimately want people to understand their message and act on it. They shape their message in a way that resonates with and motivates their target audience. They do not expect their target audience to try and understand them on their level.

          The constant replies from readers on this site, male and female, indicating they don’t understand your message or your intentions tell me your failing at grasping this concept, or maybe all of Evan’s 9 million readers also have reading comprehension problems.

          You can’t bully people into agreeing with you, listening to you, or buying whatever it is your selling. People will naturally follow you when you let them know what’s in it for them (not just what’s in it for you and why you believe you are smarter than them) and what the value proposition is in what you’re trying to sell them.

          Which of these statements would more likely make you want to stop eating donuts:

          You shouldn’t eat donuts becuase I really don’t like them.

          You shouldn’t eat donuts becuase the fat in them clogs your arteries leading to high blood pressure and heart disease, which 80 million Americans your age suffer from.

          This is why marketing executives make 6-7 figures. This is why corporations spend billions on PR and advertising firms.

          I fully expect that this will go right over your head and you will launch into attack mode trying to dissect every word I wrote while totally missing the point.

          The take home here is this, should you care to be open minded. If you’re constantly having to explain yourself to the people you are trying to influence, you aren’t influencing them.

    3. 7.3
      JB

      I have to laugh at the ” he’s only 5’9″ ” comment because the idiot that I am was honest the first 15 yrs of online dating putting  5’9″ (the truth) in my profile and I met many women over those years but then when I turned 50 I miraculously grew 2 inches to 5’11” (must of been all that praying I did….lol) and my response rate almost doubled! Making me wonder how many didn’t respond those 15 yrs. strictly because of 2 inches? Who’s kidding who, with my boots on I can almost be 5’10″….lol and don’t even get me started on my response rate since I “earned” my Bachelor’s degree this late in life……lol wink wink, nudge nudge.

      1. 7.3.1
        Caroline

        JB- are the only things that have changed in your profile over 15 years your height and education? Now that you’re getting more responses are you successfully dating?

        1. JB

          Caroline, I’ve reworked/tweeked small details in my profile many times over the last 5 or 6 years and doubled the amount of women I’ve met as well as responses and yes I’ve had some very nice relationships. So I consider THAT success. “Success” is an opinion. depending on what each individual is looking for.

          I don’t want to be married, I’m a serial dater and I enjoy it. Yes, there’s ups & downs and that’s ok. Although I don’t care for that term that I’m sure was invented by a female. And of course I don’t put that in my profile, if you have to ask why…. study this sight more closely….lol  I had the best “meet & greet” last night I’ve had since I got out of my 1 yr. relationship last July(which I consider a success btw as we mutually ended it). We’re both in our 50’s. I hope we get to know each other slowly and have some great times doing so for as long as at lasts. THAT to me will be a success. I am honest if anyone asks if I want to be married though, of course just like a woman I can change my mind at any time. 🙂

        2. Caroline

          JB- thAnks for the response. I was just asking because  year or two ago I helped  girlfriend with her profile. There were many guys still on there that I had dated with the exact picture they had up 5 years earlier. We were kidding we needed to electronically age their pics to see what they looked like! And on the height -we ladies have figured out you’re probably two inches shorter. We automatically shave off a couple inches:) some pics are hard to tell the age of. I think for me the worst was when guys lied about their age – I had a coupleshow up at least a decade older. I reAlly don’t agree with you on passing yourself as a college grad. I’m not one myself and I find that insulting although I consider myself successful. Last I knew Evan wasn’t kicking me off the blog. It’s like you said about what success means to you. For what it’s worth, I’ve dated laborers to lawyers to doctors. I guess you could claim the t o p tier women expect a degree but how would that play out when she finds out you’ve lied? It’s not like the height, most of us can’t accurately register a 2″ difference and I doubt we’d bring out our ruler and measure you tip to toe.

           

           

        3. JB

          I really don’t care about lying about a degree as it rarely if ever even comes up in conversation in our age range. Women are more worried about how you’re set up for retirement than where you went to school and what your degree is in believe me…lol If by some miracle a woman finds out and walks away ….. que sera sera. There’s millions of people online, everyone of us is a click away from being replaced and or finding someone new.

        4. Caroline

          @JB- “Honesty and integrity are absolutely essential for success in life-all areas of life. The really good news is that anyone can develop both honesty and integrity”.- Zig Ziglar
          I wish you much happiness in your journey:)

      2. 7.3.2
        Joe

        LOL JB, did you grow more hair on your head too?

        1. JB

          LOL…. Joe, I’m far from bald and Propecia has helped me keep a lot of it. I have gray temples like Mitt Romney but hey @ 55 who couldn’t use a little more “thickness” on top. I would say I have an average amount for a 55 yr. old man. Hoping it maintains! 🙂

      3. 7.3.3
        Adrian

        JB,

        Exaggerating your education or height doesn’t bother you morally?
        Why?

         

        I am not judging, I am just genuinely curious.

         

        If you will never get caught by women for these things, why would it not still not bother you?

        1. JB

          Doesn’t bother me a bit Adrian. Remember I did the 100% honest profile for  years. The playing field is not level. Never has been, never will be. The odds are stacked so much against men online as it is. My motto now is whatever it takes. Many others do it both men and women, it’s part of the game. I know women online that lie about their age by 7 or more years and been using the same pics for a decade. At least when I show up I look like my pics (which 100% current) some even told me better!

    4. 7.4
      Noemi

      Send him my way! 😀

       

    5. 7.5
      GoWithTheFlow

      Too bad your nephew is in NYC.  I have three nieces in their 20s who would treat him like the catch he is, but they are on the western end of the country.

  7. 8
    D_M

    For both sides of the divide,

    Using the absence of matrimony to determine suitability, inevitably causes you to approach the interaction with that person under a judgemental shroud. You would be doing yourselves a disservice by not at least having a conversation with that person. Don’t let preconceived notions stand in your way.

  8. 9
    Elly Klein

    I agree, Evan. (I’m agreeing with you a lot lately. How boring. Heh heh.)

    Most men want a woman with whom to share their life and, in many cases, have kids. While, biologically, they might have a little more time up their sleeve, in practical terms, they don’t: 1. The older they get, the fewer young, fertile women they can attract, and 2. They don’t want to be old dads.

    I do feel as though, overall, they have a few more quality options than women – especially when you compare men and women of the same age. But… as you said, you only need one, you need to make the time to date, you need to have a positive attitude, and you need to be willing to make reasonable compromises, which, when you fall in love and are in a happy, functional relationship, won’t feel like compromises at all. My boyfriend is not exactly what I was looking for on paper in certain ways, but some of the things I thought I didn’t want have added a real richness to our relationship I never expected. What a pleasant surprise!

    So, gentlemen and ladies, less excuses – more dating! You WILL find love eventually.

  9. 10
    Adrian

    Obsidian,

     

    My “limited” understanding of Evan’s agenda is that he tries to focus on the majority not the minority, when giving dating advice.

     

    There have been many commenters on this site in the past as well as now that have mentioned their race, and even people from other countries with slightly different cultures.

     

    We are all human,  and we all generally have the same wants and responses to love. You are preaching about a niche market of men.

     

    I have plenty of college educated and a few non-college educated African American friends who do not share your beliefs about love and marriage.

     

    The vast majority of people I have met of all races want the same things, to be loved and to have someone to share their life with.

    …   …   …

    On a personal note, Obsidian, when I first noticed your post, though I disagreed with most of them, I respected the fact that you brought a different view to the table, that was discussed. It allowed me to see different points of views and forced many people to prove your argument wrong with logic or shut up. It was selfish on my part, but all this allowed me to better form opinions because it exposed the holes in many arguments on both sides.

     

    But lately, your attacks have been very narrow, only focusing on your version of the African American dating experience and not on dating as a whole. It’s like if Evan only started talking about dating for American jews, the majority of his readers wouldn’t be able to relate, so they wouldn’t gain anything from it. You should go back to discussing problems with men and women in dating as a whole.

     

    You have the right to talk about whatever you want to, but try to remember that you are on a site that includes all races, genders, and ethnicities, not just African American men.

  10. 11
    Karl R

    Obsidian said:

    “If he had sat down with guys like yours truly, he would have found out that not only did I feel anything like his ‘focus group’, that I was never having more fun than the present”

    Wait a minute.

    We’ve been subjected to your non-stop bitching, moaning and complaining for months … because you’re happy?

     

    Something doesn’t add up.

    1. 11.1
      KK

      Funny, Karl!

      That was the exact same thought I had.

  11. 12
    KK

    Obsidian,

    Just curious… In your first comment you mentioned how happy you are and that from a young age you figured marriage isn’t likely for you. So why do you read about all this and comment on these blogs? I really am curious because normally if something is of no interest to you,  you normally don’t invest time and effort in it. And if you really are a happy bachelor, why not just enjoy that and not engage in all these discussions that don’t concern you, per your admission.

    1. 12.1
      KK

      Okay, O,

      A couple of things…

      If you date these women, they deserve to know up front that you have no intention of it leading to anything serious. If not, you’re a douche bag and you don’t get the right to complain if you ever feel used in return.

      Next, instead of complaining that you’re particular niche is not being properly represented, do it yourself. It’s the equivalent of someone complaining that a group that supports soldiers with PTSD doesn’t focus on the needs of their spouses. I’ve never understood people who criticize others for volunteering, social work, etc about their particular group not being represented. Applaud others for what they do and if so inclined, do it yourself. No one OWES anyone anything so be grateful to those that give of themselves. This is a blog for women. Men are welcomed here. You’re a man. You haven’t been excluded. Like Adrian said, it focuses on the majority, (men & women) which includes you. It is not solely for black single men over a certain age that don’t want to get married and trying to figure out why. Not sure I understand your argument.

    2. 12.2
      So done

      This is all you need to know about “Obsidian.”

      He refers to black women —  women who share his skin color and heritage, of whom his mother is one — as “park apes.”

      Evan, please, please, please, ban this loser once and for all.

    3. 12.3
      A blast from the past

      Obsidian is here because he’s been booted from every major men’s rights publication and is on the outs with the manosphere because of his beligerant and antagonistic behavior that has nothing to do with improving conditions for men. Not to mention his weak writing style.

      That’s right. men loathe this guy too. Google and see for yourself.

      We know all about you O.

      1. 12.3.1
        A blast from the past

        Did I hurt your feefees O?

        #SorryNotSorry

  12. 13
    Karl R

    Obsidian asked:

    “LOL, what, a guy can’t air out his harsch criticisms of the fairer sex?”

    Happy people don’t criticize an entire sex.  Angry people with a personal beef do.

     

    Actually, that’s not entirely true.  The current political climate illustrates that some people level similar criticisms in order to manipulate the angry people who have a personal beef.

    But in order for that exception to apply to you, you would need to not believe the things you say, and just be mouthing the kinds of sentiments your podcast listeners want to hear in order to sucker them out of their money.

     

    Obsidian,

    You level angry and harsh criticisms of black women.  Those criticisms are clearly true of some black women.  (Identical criticisms are true of some white women, Asian women, men, etc. … there’s no shortage of women and men in the dating market with unreasonable attitudes, actions or expectations.)  But those criticisms are only true of a fraction of black women.

    When you look at women our age, 65% of them are or have been married.  They married 64% of men.  So about 2/3 of women (at a minimum) have sufficiently reasonable expectations to find about 2/3 of men (at a minimum) acceptable.  (For your benefit, those are the statistics for blacks in the U.S.)  So your criticisms clearly can’t be accurate for black women as a whole.  (Even for the other third, there’s a myriad of other reasons for the lack of marriages, but that’s a whole separate topic of conversation.)

     

    Second, when I offer a criticism, I put the entire responsibility for changing on the person who complains about having the problem.  I also show the benefit to that individual.  If a man has difficulty dating, it’s up to him to change, so he can benefit.  If a woman has difficulty dating, it’s up to her to change, so she can benefit.  I was the only person who was motivated to make dating better for me.  Therefore, it was up to me to change.

    You constantly point out how hard dating is for black men, but you point the blame at “the sistahood”.  Your only advice to men seems to be vague, general encouragement to go MGTOW or PUA (without any specific PUA advice that someone could actually use).

    I have heard many variants of “This sucks! I quit!” during my life.  It never comes across as a happy sentiment.

     

    It’s all about how you offer your criticisms.  They repeatedly announce to the world that you are angry and hurt.  And you blame black women for that.  That may not be the way you intend to sound, but it is the way you sound.

    1. 13.1
      Karl R

      Obsidian asked:

      “How about you stop trying to intuit my emotional state, and simply deal with what I say, not try to divine how or why I said it, etc.”

      I am dealing with what you say.  And what you say includes gaping logical inconsistencies.

      You’ve spent months complaining how dating is for you, because you’re a working class black man, because you’re not tall, because you’re not one of the hottest men.  How, because of those four things, you’ve been consistently overlooked.

      Suddenly, last week, you were bragging like a teenager about the number of hot women who secretly sleep with you (and why they do … talk about TMI).

      This week you’re having more fun than ever, and you’ve turned down two marriage proposals.

       

      Guys who keep their own harem and turn down multiple marriage proposals don’t complain about how harsh the dating scene is for them.  That would be like Trump complaining about how hard it is for him to make money.  It just doesn’t happen.

       

      Obsidian said:

      “I’ve spent years quietly working behind the scenes, talking with a lot of the people (mainly Black men) who make their daily bread telling Black women what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear.”

      I have to respect your business acumen.  You recognized an under-served market (black men) and began earning your daily bread the same way.

       

      I agree that there are people telling black women (and practically every other demographic) what that audience wants to hear.  And in the case of the black women, it’s been telling them that black men are the cause of their problem.

      And as a member of the community, I’m sure you have seen a number of specific black men who exemplify everything they complain about.  They’ve done the wrong things, gotten in trouble, and provided a negative contribution to society (and particularly your community).

       

      Obsidian said:

      “They [black women] need to be told what the deal is in as bluntforce a way is as humanly possible,”

      Let’s flip this around.  You undoubtedly know some of the black men who are a negative influence on the community.  When the shows targeting the black women tell those men what the deal is, in as blunt-force a way as humanly possible, do those men change their ways at all?

      Of course not.  They don’t give a shit.  They continue on doing what they’re doing.  Those shows have been on for years, and they’re not changing those men.

      And the more blunt-force the message is, the more they give it the middle finger.

       

      And as you’ve pointed out, those same shows often paint all black men with the same brush … even though the people running the shows would be quick to point out that they’re not talking about “all” of them … but they certainly don’t spend any time making a distinction.

      So when the black men who do the right thing and make a positive contribution hear the lion’s share of the blame for everything getting dumped on black men, do those men feel motivated to change their lives in order to make things better for black women?

      Of course not.  They just resent taking blame for crap they didn’t do.

      And the more blunt-force the message, the more they resent it.

       

      If your raison d’être is to bring a positive change, then you already know that your methods are going to fail.  Your own personal observations of human behavior have already shown you that.

      But if you’re just looking to earn money off of angry, disaffected men by telling them what they want to hear, by pretending that your angry rhetoric will somehow persuade black women to change their ways … well, you’re the first mover in an under-served market.  Congratulations on figuring out how to make a fast buck.

       

      Obsidian said:

      “You don’t know me and instead of trying to find out by simply asking questions, you do this deeply annoying stuff.”

       

      I don’t have any questions.  I don’t care to intuit how you feel.

      I want to see how you react when I point out the glaring logical inconsistencies in what you say.  When I publicly show everyone that you are either deceiving yourself, or trying to deceive everyone else.

    2. 13.2
      So done

      Obsidian speaks for a small minority of black men handicapped by self-hate and only able to blame others for their failures.

      As a black woman, I am blessed to be surrounded in my life by many black men who not only hold a deep respect for black women, but whose actions speak far louder than your words, Obsidian. They work hard, care for their families, give back to their community, and mentor young men who might be dissuaded by the rhetoric of people like Obsidian.

      Most black women I know will tell you the exact. same. thing.

      It’s tragic to see that the face behind such blatant racism is in fact a black one.

    3. 13.3
      Karl R

      Obsidian said:

      “That’s because you’re ignorant of what these shows and other venues are about; they’re not about changing Black male behavior, they’re about validating the egos of Black women.”

      You’re a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

      You want to become the male equivalent of the shows you vilify the most.  (Getting men to “sound off like they have a pair” … sounds exactly like what the women are doing on those shows.)  Talk about hypocrisy in action.

      And of course, you want to make a lot of money off your supporters, even though you know you aren’t going to change women.

      Do your listeners know that you’re playing them for saps?

       

      If getting people to “sound off” actually made a difference in this world, then the Occupy movement would have changed Wall Street back in 2011.

       

      And if you think people need to be “taught” how to be angry, sound off, and be completely un-PC, go listen to a pack of second graders on the playground.  You’re trying to “teach” people something any elementary school child can figure out without your assistance.

      Should I commend you for being an “educator”?

       

      Obsidian said:

      “I have more responsibility and accountability in my little toe than you have in your entire body, ma’am. “

      Is this an example of you using logic?  Is this an example of you focusing on the arguments, and not the people?

      Unless you can read minds, it’s not even blunt-force truth.

      It’s a fairly good example stating a wild speculation as if it was the truth … and doing so in as rude a manner as possible.

       

      Nice follow-up after an entire post where you try to portray yourself as being logical.

    4. 13.4
      KK

      Obsidian,

      It appears you want empathy, pretty much demanding it for your plot in life, yet you offer none to anyone who does not share your exact characteristics; short, single, black, blue collar male of a certain age. Am I right?

      If you can only empathize with your specific group, pretty much demonizing every other demographic, does it make any sense that those outside your demographic would empathize with you?

      It just seems irrational to me, that you would demand something you have no intention of reciprocating.

      Karl, Adrian, and others have repeatedly tried to engage you in conversation. Yet, even though everyone continually makes excellent points, they are dismissed, insulted, and the like.

      I believe people only do the things they do if they’re getting something out of it. Clearly, you’re angry and unhappy, BUT… you get to remain a victim. And victims have a right to be angry and unhappy. Right?

      It would actually take EFFORT to change your perception, to adopt a healthier mindset. But that’s too much work! And by God, what does it matter anyway, when you’re already always right! Because you believe you’re right even though it’s so incredibly easy to prove you wrong. So, in essence, you have created your own little bubble to live in, where Obsidian gets to stay in denial, be right and angry and bitter.

      Sounds lovely.

      I fully expect my comment will go in one ear and out the other. At this point, I don’t think anyone can get through to you.

      But just so you know, I do feel sorry for you. Not because of your particular demographic. I feel sorry for you because you have no desire to be happy. I hope, at some point in the future, you will take a good look at yourself (not anyone else) and make the changes you need to, so that you can enjoy the rest of your life without that huge chip on your shoulder.

       

  13. 14
    Joe

    Are the Black marital rates you speak of inclusive of incarcerated Blacks, or only those on the outside?

  14. 15
    Stacy2

    Those guys from the NYT article get no sympathy from me. What a whiny bunch. They have forgotten how to be men, that is to do a basic thing of coming up to a woman and asking her out (online or offline). They complained about “having to go” to art galleries and singles events. Pssst. If all you want to and do is shuttle between your office and your TV at home (boring!) and never want to make an effort to ask a woman out, you deserve to be single and you will be. None of these men would rationally expect to land a dream job by sitting on their ass at home, why should they expect to have a relationship?

    1. 15.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Your lack of sympathy speaks volumes about you. Put yourself in men’s shoes. Imagine you had to do all the asking out, planning, paying and making the first move. Tiring, isn’t it? Lots of rejection, isn’t it? So instead of looking down on men who struggle with the exact same issue as my fortysomething women clients (put work first, too picky, took long breaks, lack confidence), how about you start seeing the opposite sex as fellow human beings?

      1. 15.1.1
        stacy2

        Why should I imagine myself in their shoes? For one, I know how to put myself out there and deal with rejection. I found a job in finance in the middle of the crisis of 2008 coming out of school with no prior experience. How? By getting out there and physically and electronically approaching every firm that was still breathing. I have have enough rejection letters from that era to decorate my office now. The truth is, in life we have to constantly market and sell ourselves, to the opposite sex, to employers, to investors, to clients, to everyone. So these men complaining that they have to do it – no sympathy, none whatsoever. Such is life.

        1. KK

          Hi Stacy2,

          I’m curious if you have any kids; a son(s), in particular. I have 2 teenagers; a son and a daughter. They’re both at that age where they want to start dating. I will probably allow that within this next year. They each have admirers and have had their fair share of crushes. The difference is my girl either accepts or rejects a boy’s attention. We’ve talked in great length how to go about that appropriately. My son, however, has put himself out there repeatedly and at times, faced some pretty harsh rejections, which he has handled nicely by the way. But some of these young girls can be down right mean. I wouldn’t want to be a boy or a man for anything in this world. I can only imagine after a decade or so, it would eventually wear on you. All that to say, I sympathize with both genders. Most women get to choose from what they’re offered and most men have to go about doing the choosing. Each has its own difficulties, but I’m glad I’m a woman.

        2. Sally

          KK, says “Most women get to choose from what they’re offered and most men have to go about doing the choosing.”

          You make the mistake of assminimg all women have a lot of offerings to choose from. Not true. If everyone with, forgive me, a vagina had choices galore, this site would not exist and Evan would have to find another job. You can’t compare the choices of a teenage girl to that of a woman over 35, and not all teenage girls are the same. I was awkward and shy and not very attractive as a teenager. I had no line of boys waiting to ask me out.

          Stacy2 says, “The truth is, in life we have to constantly market and sell ourselves, to the opposite sex, to employers, to investors, to clients, to everyone.”

          Stacy has a point. You have to put in effort to get what you want in life. Men and women. Men who aren’t wealthy and not living in a city where they bump into a million single women everyday probably have it a lot harder than those guys. No one strums violins for them here. I tend to agree with Stacy2. Everyone sees themselves as a victim these days.

           

        3. KK

          Hi Sally,

          You said, “You make the mistake of assminimg all women have a lot of offerings to choose from. Not true. If everyone with, forgive me, a vagina had choices galore, this site would not exist and Evan would have to find another job.”

           

          I’m not making any assumptions. I’m well aware that some have more options than others. I was simply speaking to the different dynamics between males and females. Males do the choosing (whether they’re successful or rejected is entirely up to the female) and females get to be chosen (whether they chose to accept or reject his advances).

          “You can’t compare the choices of a teenage girl to that of a woman over 35, and not all teenage girls are the same. I was awkward and shy and not very attractive as a teenager. I had no line of boys waiting to ask me out.”

          Again, I’m not making any such comparisons nor would I. I was speaking only of the dynamics. It starts at a young age. The only point I was attempting to make (which I didn’t do very well) is that neither gender has it easy. I was also speaking to Stacy’s lack of empathy for the opposite sex. Sometimes, some people aren’t able to empathize until they have children of the opposite gender. Then, they’re able to see what they really go through. We each operate out of our own dynamics.

          If I have a coworker that I’m attracted to and he doesn’t ask me out; guess what, we are never going out. Flip the roles. If my coworker is attracted to me, he will ask me out and either get a date or face rejection from me. Women do not face rejection in the same way men do. Yes, you may FEEL rejected because the guy you want to ask you out never does but men actually have to put themselves out there and HEAR that rejection.

        4. Sally

          KK says “If I have a coworker that I’m attracted to and he doesn’t ask me out; guess what, we are never going out. Flip the roles. If my coworker is attracted to me, he will ask me out and either get a date or face rejection from me. Women do not face rejection in the same way men do.”

          Well for course if you’re going to stick to such rigid gender prescriptions then yes you will sit at home alone. I am well aware that many men aren’t turned on by a woman who does the asking but letting a man a know you’re interested without actually doing the asking is not that hard and not that uncommon. Frankly neither is women just being bolder than we used to be. Not all men will run for the hills with their manhood wounded.

          Using myself as an example again, as I got older and learned to dress well, apply makeup and style my hair in a flattering way, learned to flirt and just let my comfort in my own skin show, men did notice me and ask me out.

          Of course if he’s not attracted to you he’s not going to ask you out. However sometimes he is and just needs to know you are too. To believe that women should just sit back and be beautiful and wait for men do to everything like its 1920 again is IMO not a great strategy.

        5. KK

          Again Sally,

          Like I stated earlier, the point I was trying to make is about empathy for the opposite sex.

          If you want to ask a man out and possibly face rejection, go for it. If you’d rather be approached by men and enjoy flirting to show an interest, then do that. If you want to sit back and look pretty, and choose among the men who approach you; that’s fine too.

          I don’t care what anyone else does. I was speaking to what our gender roles are. You can say it’s rigid or from the 1920’s, but it is most common for men to do the asking; and with that comes the possibility of rejection. THAT was my point.

      2. 15.1.2
        Adrian

        And this is what attracts me so strongly to Evan’s character.

         

        He could have easily remained silent as to not offend any of his female commenters, and place money over integrity, but he didn’t and never does.

         

        He has a site for women, to teach women about men, but he is always fair in my opinion.

         

        And that’s is what won me over, his integrity, so if he tells me to do so and so it improve my dating life, I trust his advice enough to at least try it; because he literally gains nothing from all the free advice he gives.

        …   …   …

        And before anyone attacks me for my comment, I can easily point out the innumerable times Evan has shut down men for their anger and bitterness toward “all” women as well.

        1. stacy2

          Evan, I did not intend to sound either warm or comforting in this particular case. I guess, some women could have said “oh those poor affluent 40-something men in Manhattan! They had to go to an art show! Where wine and cheese was served! And actually talk to people, in order to find a date! Poor, poor babies”. Huh? I just don’t find helplessness and whining at all attractive in a man. Not an aphrodisiac. A weak man will ultimately make a weak, poor partner, which means I would be the one pulling all the weight in the relationship (while being called a bitch for not being warm and caring to the poor baby’s emotional needs as you correctly pointed out). I know how this movie ends (in a divorce court).

          Btw, I don’t think that all men are like that, or all men over 40 are like that or what not. There’s plenty of normal men out there. The men profiled in the article struck me as such – but that also may be just the reporter’s fault, how she chose to write it. We don’t know what they are like in real life.

  15. 16
    Beebe

    Online dating is the antichrist. I truly believe  it’s a social experiment designed to keep people miserable. Promoting the war of the sexes. Match.com has monopolized online dating from tinder to plenty of fish. Okcupid to Datehookup. And more. Even the free sites make tons of money when you click. You are being manipulated to keep clicking and coming back. Giving hope where there is none. Fake profiles in my opinion designed by the site itself to keep you hanging on. Billions are being made at your expense. Wise up. Get off these misery making sites. Go take a walk go to the gym join a book club. Resign yourself, especially women that you’re going to probably not get married. Ever. There aren’t enough straight eligible men to go around after 40. Should be a disclaimer on all dating sits Abandon hope,all ye who enter here. They are a lie and a scam to people over 40.

    1. 16.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      One third of all marriages begin online. All of those people must be so surprised to have faced to antichrist and come out – gasp – happy!

      1. 16.1.1
        Sally

        Evan says “One third of all marriages begin online. All of those people must be so surprised to have faced to antichrist and come out – gasp – happy!”

        Do you advocate for using all methods available for meeting potential partners, including meet ups, friends, church, etc, or that online dating is the place where one  should focus their efforts? On one hand I think often the mistake is made in thinking I will just post some pictures and a profile and kick back and wait.  On the other hand online dating does favor young attractive women and attractive men with high incomes and I can see how a person who has a lot to offer that falls outside the parameters of physical beauty or a 6 figure income could get quickly discouraged.

        I believe that online dating makes sense these days with the way live. busy workaholics and isolated from traditional social networks, but you have to keep it in perspective. Mate selection will always be somewhat of a meat market whether it’s virtual or IRL.

    2. 16.2
      NewlyMarriedWoman

      Too funny. I met my husband on OKCupid. I was not only over 40 I was over 50.

    3. 16.3
      Theo

      Beebe,

      You are too pessimistic about online dating. I’m approaching 50, I divorced five years ago, and I have been online dating for periods for four years. Three years ago I met a lovely woman, with whom I had a relationship for two years. A few months ago I started dating another gorgeous woman, our relationship is progressing steadily and it makes me really happy. My OLD strategy is to search for attractive women with a professional career similar to my own — I’m a university professor. It has worked for me.

      1. 16.3.1
        Caroline

        Hi Theo-it’s inspiring to all to hear about the successes! Very happy for you and your lady. I’m in no way trying to be contrary but one of the great things about online dating us that exposes you to people who in real life you might not have a chance of meeting (your field). Although my guy and I met organically (so the venue was a commonality)we are in very differing fields and it’s great! We both were in marriages where our spouses had that in common and it was actually a negative because discussions were either about work (which we both had 40-60 hours if that week) or kids. It can make for a draining relationship at times. But I’m sure it can work as well;) I really enjoy being exposed to his “world” just as much as he is to mine.

        Many ways, congrats!

        1. Theo

          Thanks, Caroline! There are certainly many ways to meet a potential partner. Whatever strategy we use, I think dating success (excuse the term) should be evaluated not every month but rather in the long run, after a few years or so. While active in online dating, I was disappointed many times, but I think that’s part of the game for most of us. The essential thing is to make contact with and eventually date persons that there’s potential for a quality relationship with. We have to accept that it takes time, typically years, before we find the right person for us. I am glad you found found your man, Caroline! Enjoy life with him!

    4. 16.4
      SMC

      Oh heavens, and here I am over 50 and having the time of my life.  Eeek!  I didn’t “resign” myself to being lonely the rest of my life.  What WAS I thinking?

      Beebe, there are puh-LENTY of “straight, eligible men to go around after 40.”  Had one approach me where I was shooting pool last night trying to strike up a conversation.  Well, I’m assuming he was straight and eligible.  But I’m already seeing someone and was there JUST to work on my game and perhaps play a pickup game or two (which I did) if someone wanted to.  I’m not too familiar with online dating, but trust me, there are plenty of men to go around after 40.  You just need a warm, pleasant face and a smile at the ready to attract them.

      1. 16.4.1
        Caroline

        Amen SMC!  As being in most likely the same demographic as you; I find it a bit sad for some of the ladies such as Beebe. I have a ton if baggage (which I’ve neatly worked on to fit into the overhead bin), I’m chubby (working on that too)., to some a limited education (I’m proud of my work and successful in my own right), blah, blah, blah…yet I’ve found this time in my life exhilarating. I also had a guy pester me this last weekend to go out even after I told him I was dating (and yes he was charming, intelligent and handsome). I do think your 40s can be a bit rough until you transition into the next level. It certainly was full of growing pains for me. Hang in there Beebe-it will come if you work on it:)

        1. Caroline

          And btw SMC-you gotta be fun-working on your pool game?! Sounds like you have good times and undoubtedly any guy would love sharing time with you.

        2. SMD

          Caroline, like you, I have baggage.  At our “stage,” who doesn’t?  But again like you, I’ve dealt with it and stashed it away.  My ongoing motto is now that it’s all about FUN.  I try to do something fun just about every single day (after work) and on weekends.  Spent too many years “working” at relationships but no more.  If I’m in one, GREAT.  If not, I know how to have plenty of fun by myself.  Shooting pool is one of the ways I go out and have fun by myself.   I have no way of putting a table in my house, so I have to go out to do it.  Took lessons late last year and am presently working on the drills.  My man plays very well and my goal is to be able to hold my own in a game with him and occasionally win (which has happened recently!).  I go bowling, sometimes by myself, and if he’s not available, I’ll go dancing by myself.  Target shooting with my two 9mm’s is another way I enjoy my time (had a guy leave a note on my windshield once with his phone number.  NOT.)  Last year which started out terribly (post divorce, mother fell and broke her hip) was the year I named “The Year of Having Fun.”  I started having fun in March (met my man in April), and this year is “The Year of Adventure.”  No telling what next year will be, but I can promise you it will be F.U.N.

          As for the 40’s, they started out poorly (again, divorce) but by the mid-40’s I was again having the time of my life as I finally started taking country dance lessons and went several times a week.  Life is fun if one chooses it to be.  I choose to have (and be) fun, regardless of my age.  The guy thing just sort of comes with that territory.

          And you and I would have a great time shooting pool, I’m sure of it!  🙂

    5. 16.5
      JB

      Go take a walk go to the gym join a book club”

      Sure do that and let us know how many people you meet…..LOL Too funny!

       

    6. 16.6
      Rebeccca

      Wow, I thought I was negative about online dating, since I gave up on it, but it certainly wasn’t a misery machine.  I didn’t mind that the people who went to the trouble to do all that programming earned a living out of it.  I didn’t find that most of the profiles were fake or even that the men posting were dishonest.  The guys I went out with turned out to be what I expected from their profiles, we had fun conversations, they treated me with respect.  Seems like an awful lot of what people find in online dating is like Parable of the two villages, we seem to very often find what we expect.

  16. 17
    Beebe

    I don’t buy into that, but if it is true I’ll bet you a tiny fraction is well under 40. I know 100s of people and have never met one single person who married someone from online. Or even had a good dating experience for that matter. Most men use dating sites for fast easy sex. Very few are looking for a relationship. Many divorced men over 40 are bitter and finished they’ll take easy sex, sure but a commited relationship. Doubtful. Women over 40 need to be told and hear the truth. There are many seriously beautiful women out there and they can’t find an eligible man. What chance does an average looking woman stand?  Honesty. Get off those sites. Make a new plan. Love never comes when your looking for it anyway.

    1. 17.1
      SMC

      It’s all about attitude, Beebe, and you project a lot of negativity with your words.  Men pick up on that.  Heck, PEOPLE pick up on that.  I’m over 50, as I stated above, but I’m very comfortable in my skin, I think I look well for my age, and I’m happy to meet people.  I don’t walk in somewhere with a frown or even a “dead” face, I walk in with at least a half smile.  It’s natural for me to smile at people I engage with, and other people (men) see that.  Do you smile at people?  I’m not talking total strangers (I don’t do that), or your friends.  I’m talking about people you might interact with but not really think about, the “background” people e.g.  cashiers, waitresses, hostesses, valets, etc?  People notice that.  I know I do, and I find most charming the people who treat THOSE people with respect, which includes a positive attitude.

      So please don’t tell me “the truth,” I don’t need to hear it.  I’m living in my bubblegum world where people, especially average-looking women over 40, have LOTS of chances to meet fantastic men.  🙂

      1. 17.1.1
        SMC

        BTW, no slam on those “background” people – I used to be a cashier, a hostess and a waitress, so I know what it’s like to be “invisible” to so many people, which is one reason I make the extra effort nowadays.  Just wanted to be clear on that to all those out there who might hold those jobs.  I have a great respect for them.

        1. Adrian

          SMC,

          I always assumed cashiers, hostesses, and waitress, got hit on all the time as if they were rock stars.

           

          I would think the attention from men for those women would be horrible! They are paid to be nice and give attention, plus research shows that the average man can not tell the difference between a woman being friendly and a woman flirting.

           

          So I always assumed that those poor women have to constantly deal with the stressful balancing act of rejecting men in a way that doesn’t cost them their customers nor their jobs, but also doesn’t encourage the guy to come and try harder next time.

        2. SMD

          Adrian,

          I can honestly say I don’t think I was EVER hit on when in those positions, and I was in my 20’s and 30’s.  Your assumption probably is true for those who work in younger, “body image” places (Hooters anyone?), but I always worked in either family-style or upper class restaurants not really frequented by the singles crowd, or if they did, they hung out in the bar or were there with their dates.  Maybe the bartenders got that sort of attention, but I never did, which was fine.  I did, however, make some nice customer friends, but they didn’t hit on me, they were just nice.  I’m the friendly sort, so I don’t have too many bad stories, but there were a few caused by people who looked down on service people like me.  I had my ways of dealing with them, mostly to be extra kind and warm DIRECTLY to the rude person.  Worked every time.  I don’t stand for rudeness very well.  🙂  (And no, I never spit in anyone’s food and never knew anyone else to do it either. I rather think that’s something of a myth. )

    2. 17.2
      Rebeccca

      I know lots of people, friends and family, who married from online; I only have one friend who met her husband in a bar.  Everyone I know in real life who tried online dating had at least a few good experiences out of it, so I’m always surprised at the vitriol I read from a few vocal people online.  “Most men” might like to use dating sites for fast easy sex – I don’t know the minds of most men – but they will only succeed at that if women are willing to give them fast easy sex.  I had guys, once I indicated that I wasn’t interested in dating them, who responded maybe we could just remain friends because they enjoyed our conversations.  I’m in my mid-40s and perfectly average looking.  And I didn’t find love when I wasn’t looking for it.  I took a 5.5 year grief break after my divorce and got asked out no more than I had when I was wearing a wedding band.  When I made a conscious decision that I wanted to be in a relationship again, it was as if a switch got flipped and men started approaching me.

      We send signals somehow that people pick up on, and you’re sending a signal that you doubt the existence of a man with integrity.  Consider that it could be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

      1. 17.2.1
        Sally

        Rebecca says “We send signals somehow that people pick up on, and you’re sending a signal that you doubt the existence of a man with integrity.  Consider that it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy.”

        I find the same thing to be true. Just going about my day I notice a difference in how men interact with me based on nothing more than whether I’m having a good day or a bad one. However how does that bode for online dating? I am divorced, a little overweight but I do exercise and enjoy hobbies that keep me active. Mostly I try to have a fun outlook on life. It’s hard to convey that online. Yes you can use your profile but everyone basically is saying the same things about being fun and adventurous that no one believes it lol. I have a few friends who I love but honestly can be a little boring but say those things in their profiles because they know it’s what men want to hear.

        1. Rebecca

          I think you’re right that these subtle messages are NOT easily communicated online, and I think that’s part of the reason I found it easy to meet men online but much easier to find them men that became long-term relationships IRL.

    3. 17.3
      JB

      “Most men use dating sites for fast easy sex. Very few are looking for a relationship. Many divorced men over 40 are bitter and finished they’ll take easy sex, sure but a committed relationship.”

      Had to laugh Beebe for 95% of men there’s nothing “fast” or “easy” about any part of online dating. For the under 35 Tinder hookup generation sure there’s a lot of that going on. The over 40 crowd is a different story even more so over 50!  And btw, there’s just as many bitter divorced women as there are men.

  17. 18
    JF

    I’m a 45 year old woman. I’ve never married and have never wanted to marry or have kids. I have a pretty good job and I think I look fine – definitely young for my age. I have been in a fair number of relationships, but I never met anyone who I would want to be with long-term until I went online for the first time early last year. My boyfriend is 11 years younger than me, doesn’t make much money at the moment, and is from another country, but we pretty much agree on everything and never fight. He’s the one for me.

  18. 19
    Bebee

    I stand corrected. So glad everyone is meeting their significant others and having great dating experiences.  Carry on

  19. 20
    MilkyMae

    A generation or two ago, it was more important for a woman to get married.  Women who didn’t get married had diminshied prospects in life.  It was not uncommon for an unmarried woman to move in with a family member and to work as a low paid secretary or school teacher past age 65.  In the older generations(traditional), women had to be focused on marriage.  They had to be a little more proactive and the man was more of the decider.   Nowadays educated single women can have middle class lives with middle class salaries.  They can buy cars, homes and travel.  The burden or effort to get married has shifted from the woman to the man.  Men have to do more and be more.  Many comments(including the most “liked” comment) of the NY Times article urge single men to simply make a greater effort.  But single women outnumber single men in NYC so the likelyhood of marriage is lower for women. Asking men to do more when there is a shortage of men, tells me many women need to be convinced that marriage is better than the single life.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *