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I’m new to you, but I’m a quick student. My question is not really for you, though, it’s for your wife. Has she written anything you can refer me to? Like her, I have ALWAYS believed in giving others freedom to live their lives, make their own choices, etc. I’ve not found a man that believes that’s a 2-way street.
I’m 49, out of a 20-year marriage followed by a 2-year relationship with a “player” who took advantage of that freedom. So now I am newly on the dating scene and need a fresh belief system that doesn’t trigger those old fears.
I am interested in her perspective and/or philosophy in regards to how she “deals” with the other women in your life, particularly those you might feel attracted to. I’ve investigated the “polyamorous” and “open relationship” scenarios and I don’t really think that’s what you have or nor what I’m looking for, but how does a woman handle those situations as I do believe in people having freedom in a relationship is the only way it can work. Is this a fine line?
Thanks, Kim
I like your question, Kim, and while my wife is too busy running to Mommy and Me classes and shopping for our dinner parties to sit down and compose her own response, I did actually read her your question after dinner one night last week.
A wife trusts her husband enough to not cheat, even when there’s temptation? That’s crazy talk!
She was flattered and really wanted to give you the best possible answer. Her only recorded thoughts on dating have been compiled in a four-page section of “Why He Disappeared” and I’ve been told, much to my consternation, that her part is the best part of the whole book. I don’t know that I’d go that far — but I would say that learning how to best deal with an alpha male from the horse’s mouth is pretty invaluable. I’m quite candid that everything I teach comes from the “What Would My Wife Do?” school of thought and I think you’ll really enjoy it.
As to your provocative question about how much freedom you should give a man when you’re in an exclusive relationship and how do you deal with the inevitable fears and insecurities, allow me to set the record straight:
It is not at all difficult for my wife to deal with me, for one huge reason.
She trusts me.
Unconditionally. No question about it. Wouldn’t even occur to her that I would ever do anything to breach our vows.
She knows that I value my character and morals as highly as I value anything else in my life. The way other people value religion, I value doing the right thing.
Acceptance is the most powerful tool in making a man feel loyal to you.
And because of that worldview, there’s nothing I can do that’s remotely threatening.
This is why I can be surrounded by five attractive 30-year-old women at a party in Hollywood and I won’t get lectured when I get home.
This is why I can get a lap dance at my bachelor party in Austin, and all my wife asks me when I come home was whether I had fun.
This is why I can occasionally point out a woman in a low-cut top in a restaurant or watch online porn. Neither my wife nor I thinks that this is a slippery slope that’s going to destroy the foundation of our relationship.
This is why my wife can hire burlesque dancers to join the 80’s rock band at my 40th birthday party last month. They were a big hit with everybody — and about 10 women came up to me and told me how extraordinary my wife was. Huh?
Don’t get me wrong, my wife is extraordinary, but the only thing I think is REALLY extraordinary is how RARE this kind of behavior is.
A wife trusts her husband enough to not cheat, even when there’s temptation? That’s crazy talk!
But why? Shouldn’t ALL wives trust their husbands? I sure think so. After all, what kind of relationship do you have if you don’t trust the man you’re supposed to trust?
Thus, the first thing you have to do, Kim, is to find a man that you completely trust, without a doubt. It’s your doubts that will drive you nuts, not the man himself.
Some women would be driven nuts by me, but that doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with me. You may think I’m disrespectful. My wife doesn’t. She thinks I’m normal and she loves the fact that I can be myself around her without any fear of retribution. And because she’s so accepting of me — a trait I’ve found very hard to find — I love her in a way that few men openly love their wives.
Acceptance is the most powerful tool in making a man feel loyal to you.
Now that does NOT mean accepting behavior that is inherently unacceptable.
Wherever you draw the line becomes the line
Some women freak out if he talks to another woman, has lunch with another woman, says something cute on Facebook to another woman, or looks at another woman. I think this is a bad policy because it’s essentially asking him to spend his entire life lying to you and denying the existence of any other woman. If you find a man who is willing to pretend that no one else in the world is attractive but you, I applaud you and hope you’re happy.
Agonizing about whether he’s going to cheat is like agonizing about whether a plane is going to crash. You really can’t do anything about it, so you might as well try to enjoy the ride.
But since you’re a freedom-loving woman, Kim, you don’t have to do that. You just want to know how far you should go. It’s not my place to say what’s right for you, but if you believe what I do — that both sexual contact and sexual intention can be considered cheating — then that becomes your tipping point. If your boyfriend is asking for women’s numbers, flirting on Match.com, taking other women out to dinner secretly, having phone sex, or actually cheating on you, then, well, he’s broken the boundaries of exclusivity.
In other words: fantasizing, fine. Acting on his fantasies without your permission, not fine.
As long as you know your boundaries, you can give him all the leeway in the world, until he breaches your trust. Which brings me back to the three things my wife had to say about your question:
1. Go with your gut.
My wife trusts me so much that even when she had physical evidence that I was cheating on her (panties in the dryer), she still believed me when I swore that I wasn’t.
She trusted her gut.
My wife knows infidelity — she’s had three boyfriends cheat on her — and each time, she knew when something was wrong. Her wisdom was in not treating those men (or me) as if they were untrustworthy until they actually did something untrustworthy.
2. Stop looking for it.
As my wife pointed out, if he’s going to cheat on you, he’s going to cheat on you. You can’t stop it with fear or worry or interrogation or jealousy. If anything, those kinds of behaviors will be more likely to drive a man to escape. Agonizing about whether he’s going to cheat is like agonizing about whether a plane is going to crash. You really can’t do anything about it, so you might as well try to enjoy the ride.
3. Trust
As I’ve long said, it’s either full trust or no trust. If you truly trust your guy, you couldn’t even imagine him cheating on you. He has a strong moral code. He treats you like gold. Even if he’s attracted to other women, he would never think of jeopardizing his relationship for a quick fling. And so you let everything go that is not actually cheating behavior — and watch him express his further devotion and appreciation to you.
For you will be the only woman ever who has done that for him — who was confident enough to let him be himself and not try to change him.
That’s why he’ll stick with you forever.
Kathleen says
I love Evans comment thats its the doubts that will drive you nuts not the man. To me worrying about trusting the guy is about as unhappy as comparing yourself to other people all the time. If you are secure in yourself and the man has done nothing to warrant distrust why distress yourself. If your intuition is up though thats a different issue
Im at the same stage of life as Kim My ex husband of 20 years was 6 4″ extremely good looking and women would notice him everywhere Overseas people would ask him for his autograph thinking he was an athlete or movie star. I never distrusted him because I was secure and safe with him and our marriage didn’t break up over infidelity. My guess is Kims last 2 year relationship lowered her self esteem so she could focus on rebuilding that
At my age I am very self accepting and confident which is attractive Insecurity is not attractive for men or women If a guy Im with wants someone else he can go and Ill find someone better.
Thanks for another great topic
menji says
I love this article.. very much like me to my husband… it’s amazing how difficult it is to find a man worthy of such trust, however, i should say that you will definitely know once you find that man.
I totally agree with Evan, a man with high morals is worth trusting. And it is not only with his relationship with you that you would see this. Observe his dealings with other people, his dealings with money, work and other things, keep you eyes and heart open, and only then would you be able to decide whether you can trust the person.
As I always said to my husband, there is no gray area when it comes to morals and character of a person. What is wrong is wrong, and what is right is right. And acting on something is entirely different from thinking or fantazising, as Evan mentioned.
I do sometimes still get crazy squirrels in my head, however, it is something that is easily resolved by talking and opening up to him about issues. I have been burnt before, where i just overlooked things and thought that things would go away if you dont talk about it. This time, i learned that communication is as important as love and trust in any relationship. And it was my husband who guided me towards that direction.
Kathy says
Okay, you lost me at lap dance. I consider lap dancing cheating, your wife doesn’t? Really? Then I question her self-esteem. Okay then If some random girl does the same to you at a bar, that’s okay too? Is it okay if a guy fondles your wife (clothes on)? Why not? First, I find anyone who goes to a strip club to be lacking in the class department, if this happens at a stag party, then time to go. My fiancé will not do these things. If he did…buh-bye!
Evan Marc Katz says
@Kathy – This. This is what I’m talking about. And I think we can agree that a guy like me would never go for a woman like you – if only because you’ve never met me and have already declared that I’m classless because my friends took me to a strip club at my bachelor party. Judgmental much?
All I’ll say in reply is that I hope that your fiance never goes to a bachelor party, and if he does, that he stands with a Coke in his hand, far, far away from any scantily clad women. But I suspect that he will go to a bachelor party and be forced lie to you about it because of your hard-line stance. If that works for him, as I’ve already said in my post, God bless you both.
KM says
Hey Evan – would it be possible to respond to the issue of the lap dance that she raised? I’m approaching this cross road with a current boyfriend (approaching bucks parties). I am working hard to put a lap tap dance into perspective as the guy’s character is irreproachable and I want him to fit in with this friends but for unexplainable reasons, the prospect just makes me feel so crap. I suspect it’s the double standard so I do sympathise with Kathy’s point – I imagine he’d be mortified if I gave a man a lap dance or groped some guy’s genitals for a laugh. Nothing I read knocks this horrible feeling on the head.
Melody says
Kathy, go with your guy to a strip club. You’ll see that it’s not the big deal you have in your head. It’s nothing, really. And maybe you’ll be offered a lap dance like I was. Seriously, this is nothing to be worried about…see for yourself.
MA says
I think lapdances are disrespectful and cheating also. I believe strip clubs are classless and degrating to women. To me, lap dances are basically conducting sexual behavior, just with your clothes on. And let’s not even discuss private rooms! I ahve heard from guys what goes on there… even married guys. Let’s just say if a married man ends up with lipstick on his underwear after going to a strip club, CLEARLY, STRIP CLUBS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE IN A MONOGAMOUS RESPECTFUL RELATIONSHIP, AND CLEARLY THAT MAN IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY. Having said all this, I have, actually, been to a strip club with y bf. I wanted to see for myself becasue i don’t like to judge without knowing. Quite frankly, my bf was nervous, the girls were actually very respectful, and Other than being totally surprised when I saw a girls hoo ha entirly as she lifted a leg up in the air (yes, it ended up being a fully nude club) All I had to say was huh, I rpobably would enjoy dancing up there (with more clothes on) and probably could get a pretty good crowd haha. BUT…I was included and it was something we did together. If he were to go out with his buddies to a strip club, have lap dances by some pretty aggressive women, not be capable or turning them down for fear of being rude (yes he has actually said that- big fight) and basically engaging in this behavior towards other women without including me? Well then i find myself getting anrgy and resentful and insecure and I think it’s totally disrespectful. I can give my bf a full nude (and more) lapdance at home and do what he wants… tehrefor i find no need, and unacceptable, to get it elsewhere. period.
MA says
One more thing (and sorry for the typos) I was married for 10 years. My husband cheated on me. twice. It has really damaged me and it is very hard for me to trust people in gnrl. Have bene with my bf for over 2 yrs now. Initially i trusted him and he worked with me and avoided things that he knew would upset me. However, as time has gone by, if there is an argument he will use these same things to get to my head. THis, has had a counter effect and so obviouslly, if I was trying to trust him before, and wanting to be ok with certain things, now, I’m not because He has sort of predispositioned me to be negative and worry about stuff. I think it has to do, like you saidm with values and moral. IN my eyes, there are ways to carry yourself and respect your partner. In his eyes, I geus he sees nothing wrong with anything even if it upsets me. So We clearly have an issue and different values and not on the same page. It’s about two people respecting each other and reaching mutual agreemnts. As long as you have that than it’s easier to trust.
Karmic Equation says
Why does he have to go first?
If he makes you unhappy, and I’m assuming feeling insecure makes you unhappy, then why don’t you break up with him? He clearly doesn’t define respect in the way you do, so, yes, you have different values.
Why are you wasting your time and his?
Dump him and find another guy who will cater to your insecurities.
But you’re find many will be the exact same as your current boyfriend. They will try to cater to your insecurities in the beginning and then get tired of having to walk on eggshells around you and start expecting YOU to get better.
So the only LASTING solution is that you learn to manage your insecurities instead of expecting the men in your life cater to them.
MA says
True. I don’t know why. probably because deep down I believe that i am the problem and feel not good enough and allow for people to make me feel worse. So i guess i should focus on healing myself first (and my great 3 boys!)(easier said than done) THing is, i can’t forget how great he was and really want him to be a better person like he used to… But i feel like his family, friends, and even he, is against us. hha I’m taking on the world! And trying hard to go above and beyond to work things out. What do you do, when a rleationship was GREAT, than things slowly got bad, then worse, how do you get back to that great place?! It’s hard… and it’s also hard to give up and call it quits. I think i put him first because he has manipulated me into thinking that if I didn’t, and didn’t step it up he would go elsewhere. he claims that by “not having a life” (menaing, bars, clubs, other women etc basically acting “single ” in my book, ) than i have to make up fot it. I’m trying 🙁 Some of us women WANT t be ok with things, but we smply can’t help getting upset over things or don’t know how to handle them.
Evan Marc Katz says
find a different guy. seems healthier than complaining about the one you have.
Karmic Equation says
MA,
All relationships start out “great”. Otherwise, why would people even have relationships?
But that greatness is a phase of the relationship.
After the greatness wears off, then the REAL relationship begins. The REAL relationship is the one you need to evaluate. Daily, if need be. If the the real relationship you have is NOT making you happy, then you need to leave. But don’t leave because it changed from “great” to “real”. Real relationships feel good most of the time. Sometimes it feels neutral. Occasionally you’ll question it.
If you question the relationship MOST of the time instead of occasionally. If you feel bad or sad about the relationship MOST of the time. Or even if you feel neutral about the relationship MOST of the time, then the relationship is wrong for you. It could be wrong because you have unrealistic expectations (e.g., greatness for the duration of the relationship) or it could simply be that his and your values don’t align and you’re not compatible.
If you have unrealistic expectations about relationships, then you’ll never be in a long-lasting one because you can’t accept the reality of a relationship after the honeymoon period is over. You need to readjust your expectations if this is the case.
If it’s because he and you are not compatible, then you need to end it.
MA says
Agreed… I geuss I’m not done hoping and trying. You’re right i shouldn’t complain, maybe more so seeking advice (while commenting on other’s posts) I wonder fi I’m the crazy one in not wanting him to do whaetver he wants whenever he wants: even when I find some of those things to be offensive.
Nancy says
As a woman …. I have become much more like a man … I allow myself to spend my free time thinking of other men and gazing at other men (I used to spend it thinking about how to make my marriage better, I used to buy and read lots of self improvement and marriage books… seems now like I wasted lots of my time) … insecurities solved (and my life is soooo much easier) 🙂 And frankly, now I haven’t found a man I want to be committed to over the long haul … I like the variety and I like the excitement of the new variety that is just around the corner and easily obtainable( I haven’t met a man yet that seems better than the next possibility but I have only been re-single for 5 years post 25 year marriage). Possible as we raise our daughters we can teach them to understand that they are capable (more women work and take care of themselves, a male is not needed but instead something one has in one’s life if they actually improve our life) thus so what if we change men as frequently as we change clothing styles? It does seem possible now to solve women insecurities by changing our behaviors and belief system since we have changed our financial capabilities.
As a woman I now do not even try to pin a man down … pretty much what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Only give as much as you are given. So … if a man is going to the strip bar, I engage in like kind of behavior(I’ve found I can actually enjoy it now since I have changed my belief concerning it … lot of funny and good looking bodies to spend free time thinking about) … I don’t allow the double standard and I make the man decide the level of respect, behavior, and tolerance. If it is good for him (to go to the strip clubs, bars, flirt, etc) then it is good for me to do as well(would I be tempted to have sex with a stranger I was flirting with …. sometimes …. does it change how I feel about my man …. often times …. what keeps me straight is more fear of STDs not faithfulness to a man that has set our relationship bar this low as I know this relationship is temporary … I use the flirty time to find a new companion I’d be interested in when my current one flames out) … usually these relationships take care of themselves in that the man typically ends it (he is looking for a woman to be behaving much better than he wants to behave … he wants the high feelings and the ego rush but he doesn’t want the insecurities of watching his female engage in like kind of behavior). I have come to the conclusion that when I find a man that acts as he wants me to act it will be one worth investing time in otherwise, best to just enjoy the journey and not get committed to a relationship that has a lot of double standards.
Karmic Equation says
You’re not wrong in not wanting him to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, particularly if you find some of those things offensive.
You’re wrong to try to change him.
You’re wrong to stay in the relationship with him.
If your guy often does things that you find offensive, why are you with him? No one’s perfect, so being offensive once in a while is being human. This you should accept. However, being offensive most of the time is a character flaw. This you should NOT accept.
Lee says
“And I think we can agree that a guy like me would never go for a woman like you.” Evan Marc Katz, you’ve GOT to realize; “Different strokes for different folks.”
Men don’t need to have a bachelor party to enjoy themselves. “But I suspect that he will go to a bachelor party and be forced lie to you about it because of your hard-line stance.” You think that because you’re a male that you know the mind of all men and that all men have a calling or desire to go to a bachelor party and strip club and allow some TOTAL strange woman.
“Hard-line stance to dance in his lap.” Evan, NOT all men take a stand to this strange behavior. I’m married and my husband it NOT into this kind of behavior. He see it as disrespectful and low-class, and SO DO I! Why be so thin skin.
Karmic Equation says
And he’s probably a bad lover.
Men who are oblivious to other women tend to be more sexually repressed.
Men who overtly appreciate the sex appeal of other women (e.g., look forward to bachelor parties, enjoy going to strip clubs occasionally)—but aren’t cheaters—tend to be better lovers (or at least they try to be).
Men who covertly appreciate the sex appeal of other women are the ones that make the best partners. Simply because they are relationship-savvy enough to know ogling other women in front of you will royally piss you off. And this relationship-savviness carries into other parts of the relationship.
alex says
Kathy, I’m with you. A lap dance is NOT acceptable in a monogamous relationship, and I believe the vast majority of women would agree with me. I know my boyfriend would definitely not appreciate me doing a lap dance for another man.
rajai says
I have to reply to Karmic’s comment. I highly disagree with your statement that men who overtly appreciate other women tend to be better lovers – That could NOT be further from the truth in my experience. My husband is one of the most blatantly obvious oglers of other women & he is not the best lover I’ve been with by a LONGGG shot. I don’t think prowess in bed has anything to do with a man’s ability to be discreet while checking other women out. Totally independent factors there!! Just speaking on my own experience. I love my husband very much but he ranks in the 30/40 percentile range as far as love making, unfortunately. Even though I’ve tried to teach/tell him over & over again what he does wrong/bad etc. Never works (8 years later). But he is definitely that guy that walks into a room & scours the room for attractive women & then makes a point to walk by them to get closer if he can, or go to the bathroom 3 times to get a look. He is also a guy that used to go to strip joints a lot, not so much any more just b/c he’s older, but he’s still actively checking out 20 year olds, as long as they are tall, blonde & have big boobs. he’s a man & it’s what they do…haha
Chelsea says
AMEN.
Its disrespectful. Wives across the world have been forced to be normalized to this sex culture and have been taught that “men will be men” and it’s disgusting. Not a woman on earth can honestly tell you it doesn’t bother her a little bit that her man is flirting, getting lap dances, or projecting himself as available even if only for an hour or evening. It’s hurtful. It’s culturally accepted that men will do this but it’s still hurtful and disrespectful.
I recently got into an argument with my boyfriend because he had to speak at a dinner and he texted me saying he would be home at 845…..then at 930 he texted saying he was about to leave and was “stuck at an annoying bar thing”….then stopped answering my texts and didn’t come home until 11. You know what he was doing? Stayed at the bar late with a group of young coworkers who are notorious for getting sloppy drunk and sleeping around. He knows I do not trust or approve of these girls and he knows how it makes me feel that he has to work closely with them all the time.
I trust him 100% not to kiss or cheat on me with them but it is still disrespectful and hurtful when he omits details and when he picks up the bar tab to be charming to several promiscuous women.
Nope. This article completely lost me, too. I’m with you.
Lana says
Oh my goodness, what’s a big deal about a lap dance or strip club? Have women become so insecure? Is he going to the strip club because he WANTS to get a lap dance from a strange barely dressed woman? Or is it simply a situation and he’s going with the flow and in the end he comes back to you, albeit a little hornier than usual, and you have amazing sex?
As a woman, I don’t see a problem with my man going to a strip club in this situation. If that leads to him cheating (and what else, dating a stripper?? LOL), then it’s better I found out sooner rather than later. I’ve been to strip clubs myself (with my man), and we actually had fun – together! It got us a little more sexually charged, buzzed, and in the end we had a great time and it gave us something to giggle about for weeks/months to come.
I guess it all goes back to self-confidence, self-esteem, how we (each one of us individually view ourselves). Are we confident and secure enough that **I** am a great catch and he would be foolish to cheat on me with a stripper? I know I am.
helene says
I have recently begun a long distance relationship with a man I have only met a few times, and clearly in a situation like that you really have no way of knowing exactly how someone is spending their time when you’re not around. I know he’s a man who appreciates women and is confident around them, so how do I deal with the issue of trust and freedom?
Firstly, I think its important to remember that if a man is with you, its because he wants to be with you. You have to give him some credit for his own choices – if he wanted to be with someone else, well, he’d be with someone else, wouldn’t he??!
Secondly, as this in a new relationship, I pay attention to his behaviour. How open is he with me about what he’s been doing? Does he call when he said he would? Are there a lot of inconsistencies in his stories? I don’t snoop. pry. or even worry about where he is or what he’s doing, but I do take note…. and one thing I would say is that men who are being faithful to you, particularly if you are apart, are generally anxious to demonstrate this to you. They know women worry about these things, they don’t want to be though of as a player if they’re not, so if you don’t act nosey about what they’re up to they will often go to great lengths to demonstrate that they are not out with other women(often by giving slightly tedious accounts of the details of their day – but hey, you can’t have it both ways!) In contrast, a player will generally try to keep quiet about his whereabouts unless asked, at which point, yes, he may come out with some story, but there is a difference in the type of stories players tell in these situations.
Thirdly, as I have commented in other posts, I will happily tolerate – indeed, actively encourage – my man to express appreciation for other women, by pointing out good looking women and taking an interest when he does the same. Today I got an e-mail from him commenting on the women’s beach volleyball in the olympics, and mentioning he’d seen some gorgeous photos of said volleyball girls asses. I googled the photos and e-mailed back agreeing that they are, indeed, superb….
I think this sort of openness makes a man feel closer to you, more relaxed, and perversely, less likely to seriously stray – if he can admire other women without you freaking out he doesn’t get into the “going behind your back” mentality, like a naughty child who thinks his mother is spoilijng his fun.
And yes, lastly, if a man is going to cheat there is nothing you can do, so why worry about it – if he does, you can deal with that when it happens – like earthquakes, there is not much you can do in advance !
Nathan says
Agreed 100%. I’ve recently ended a 2 year long distance relationship, and I can say is you are spot on on all of your points there.
Kristina says
Finding that fine line is so hard. My boyfriend and I have been off and on for 3 years (the off only being about 2 months combined)….he likes his freedom and he distances himself when he finds me acting co-dependent (understood). I am now trusting him with all my heart and it’s an amazing feeling. My only issue is that his ex keeps trying to contact him. How do you make those annoying pestering thoughts go away? I deactivated my facebook so I wouldn’t see her comments but it still nags at me. “Come visit me” she always says.
MA says
I agree, that’s si frightening because it makes us vulnerable. And I mean, let’s face it. We aren’t stupid and we notice things that make us even more worried. Especially if you have been cheated on before… In my case i was vulnerable but felt amazing when I trusted him. It’s like a domino effect, you trust him, he feels more love and wants to behave… (usually) win win, right? In my case I basically found out a ton of stuff that made me realize he was a total playboy, and he had lied to me about many things, so then the trust was shot, and I began to stress everywhere he went…. because everywehre he ahd hooked up with someone (bank, bar, restaurant, you name it) So then, He claims I became “controlling”. Why? Because I obviously had an issue with the fact that i thought he was someone who didn’t do that… and come to find out all the places that i trusted him and where he was hanging out, he failed to mentioned he had sexted or slept with like 1-3 people there! how do we react to that??? And Kristina, I totally understand!! my bf I speak of has a pestering ex… they have 2 children together… and you’d think they’d communicate on an “as needed basis”? well… apparently they “need ” to talk and text and chat about the kids 24/7. Every day. Multiple times a day. it’s extremely frustratingand I find it disrespectful on her part, and also on my bf’s part for not understanding that it upsets me. As for the “visit me”…. well… idk. I would not be strong enough to delete my fb. I’d delete his instead lol.
MA says
(Unless of course he is one of the rare ones that would actually let her know nicely, to please stop making those commenst, or simply ignores her)
Lala says
I agree with the article, i just don’t think I know how to get there already. As someone who always believed in the “not put yourself in risky situations” advice, I still have trouble being tottally fine when something like that happens
Heather says
Kathy,
While I disagree with you on your assessments of EMK and his wife (we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors so best not to go there really), I can understand how you feel about a guy you are with, getting a lap dance from a stripper or some other woman. It does make me uncomfortable. Just like I am sure it would probably bug my guy if some stripper came and was grinding on me.
However, that’s their relationship and that’s the point he’s making. If that works for them and she trusts him, well there you go. Everyone has their boundaries and what makes them comfortable or uncomfortable. I trust my guy to go out with his co-workers or guy friends and that he wouldn’t cheat on me. There’s really not alot I can do about it to make it not happen, but trust that if it were to happen, he would be sent packing. Very quickly. And he knows it. His cousin just had her now ex-boyfriend cheat on her and we talked about the subject, and I told him my views on it, that it is a dealbreaker, that if I were to be cheated on, I do NOT want to “work on the relationship”, etc.
I can understand how you feel, truly I do, it’s not a fun thought to think of some strange woman grinding on your guy. But what EMK and his wife are OK with, well that’s kind of their business. Just sayin.
Mia says
I’ve never worried about a boyfriend cheating, but then again, I shy away from attractive alpha males who are charming ladies’ men. I try to find guys who are cute, but have some flaw that other women would judge him for, such being on the short side, being foreign, having kind of a nerdy look, or simply not being slick with women. I might not be so cool if were with a man like Evan, who had dated a lot, was attractive, and charming with women. However, it’s probably not fair to judge like that – I have been going on dates with a more conventionally good loo king, charming guy. I’d assume if he kept asking me out in a timely fashion, and showed interest , there is no reason to freak out. I’m not bothered by strip clubs either, but I’d still prefer a man not say anything at all but attractive women to me.
Ileana says
Evan, something isnt’t really clear to me. Doesn’t fully trusting a stranger (say, in the first months of dating)based on ‘(s)he hasn’t done anything wrong…yet’ put you in a vulnerable position? You know, getting your feelings hurt and all that…? Or should you just not get really emotionally involved with a stranger and wait for the trust to build?
And how did your wife react, after being cheated on? I mean, is she the advocate of giving another chance, or should one simply cut the cheater off?
Do you think there can ever be an excuse for cheating? Or that if someone cheated once, there will surely be a second time?
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, Ileana, trusting a stranger puts you in a vulnerable position. And yet that’s the only way to find true love. If my wife judged me for the sins of her exes, she wouldn’t be my wife.
I’m writing a newsletter about cheating later this week. Sign up above if you want to hear my thoughts…
Ileana says
@Evan #11: Signed up to your newsletter from the very first time i visited this site. Each one of your mails resides in my ‘Evan’s f***ing brilliant dating advice’ file.
PGL says
What Evan wrote makes sense and that is what I’ve always practiced, but sometimes it just backfires. I must be one clueless person with bad judgement of character. I just found out six years later that my ex cheated on me several times during the seven years we were together. I always trusted him & never doubted him. Even after we broke up he asked a mutual friend to never tell me because he knew I never suspected him. What I do know, if a guy ever admits to cheating on every girlfriend he has ever had and acts remorseful, I’m still not dating him.
Leo says
Evan’s right when he said it’s all about…
Trust.
And I’d add that trust is a 2-way street.
You want to be able to trust your man, but he also has to earn it.
You wouldn’t want to immediately trust every single guy you date…
That he’s going to treat you like his queen…
To love, respect you, appreciate you and never do you wrong?
Instead, you’d just stand back,
And let him show you what’s he about.
But don’t close him off.
Now if you have a habit of not trusting men,
There’s only 2 reasons for this:
1) you keep dating the types of guys you can’t trust (players) or
2) someone lost your trust once, and you won’t trust anyone else again
If it’s the former, start dating men who are trusthworthy.
If it’s the latter, have faith in yourself that you’ll be okay.
Even if it happens again, it’s not going to break you.
It never did and it never will.
Lia says
WOW! I like that!!!
Henriette says
I think that for many women — at least, for me and quite a few of my friends — we make a fuss over certain behaviors not because we think the guy is going to cheat but because it’s humiliating when he acts in certain ways.
For example, I know plenty of women who try to establish their superiority over other women by flirting outrageously with their husbands and getting a charge when these guys respond. I don’t mind if my guy notices a pretty woman but what if it’s obvious to everyone in the room that he’s leering at her? What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table? I suspect Evan’s lovely wife was cool with him enjoying the burlesque dancers at his party not only because she knew he wouldn’t cheat but also because he didn’t spend the evening talking loudly about how sweet the ass was of one and how he’d love to ride another like a pony.
What I’m trying to say in my round-about way is that even though I’ve never worried that a guy would cheat on me, I’ve had a harder time establishing and maintaining boundaries about a fellow’s behavior around these kinds of subjects. When does appropriate looking/appreciating turn into embarrassing ogling; when does mentioning that a mutual friend is hot go from being a few non-threatening comments to being kinda creepy overkill… and how can I help a dude understand the difference… and when should I simply bite my tongue?
helene says
@Henriette
I really don’t think anyone should stress about where their boundries “should” be. Your boundaries are your boundaries and they should be wherever feels comfortable and appropriate TO YOU. That said, you cannot impose your boundaries on another person – all you can do is stick to them yourself. If the man your with has different boundaries, there is no need to stress about how to make him adhere to your boundaries – you simply have to say, well, he’s not the man for me.
I do think, though, in setting one’s own boundaries, that we owe it to ourselves to ensure that they come from a place of confidence and self esteem, and not from fear or insecurity. If you don’t like your man commenting on another womans boobs because it makes you feel anxious and unattactive, then that is a boundary coming from a place of fear and anxiety. If you don’t like your man commenting on another womans boobs because you are a member of the Amish and in your religious worldview such behaviour is disrespectful to God, then that’s another matter.
I do agree with Evan, though that we have to accept that men are MEN…. and that’s why we like them! Men admiring other women’s boobs in the street is liek women drooling over shoe shop windows – its just part of our make-up, and nothing to complain about.
carrie says
Wow. What you said about boundaries is on point and so true. Thank you. Also when you discussed setting the boundaries from a place of confidence and self esteem instead of insecurity is also key. Thank you for these thoughts
Rachael says
@leo: Very, very sound advice. Pretty much the same advice i’ve been getting from my mom all my life. She married my dad at 19 and they are going on 40 years next march. She’s wise. As are you.
@evan: I suspect your wife is so rare for the immesurable difficulty a lot of women find in adopting such attitudes. I suppose for some it always has and always will come naturally. As you know, not so much for others.
Letting go of the trust issues, bitterness, sadness and defeat of ending a marriage was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Harder to let go than to continue going through it. Going through it was damn hard enough. The person I was closest to in my life betrayed my trust. The person who trusted me with EVERYTHING (even his feelings…his deepest thoughts)ended up lying to me. It damn near killed me. I remember one moment when I thought I lost my soul.
To give someone that power again is not so easy. To give it in the first place isn’t easy. Proving that you’re worthy of it is hard enough. The trust thing takes a lot more than just knowing a relationship needs it. It takes a lot of strength and values from both sides.
Fiona says
I have never worried that someone might cheat on me in a relationship. I don’t approve of strip clubs though not because I have an issue with trusting men to behave but because a) there is a lot of human trafficking in this country and b) lots of women who start with stripping end up on a slippery slope towards prostitution and blighted lives. I would therefore rather that the men I date keep out of them because although they are not hurting me in any way, they are indirectly and unintentionally contributing to an industry that exploits women and destroy lives and I have a very hard time condoning that.
a noun y moose says
This is a really interesting post and discussion. As a recovering codependent and the former wife of a sex addict, I can relate to most of what has written here.
It seems obvious, but we all have our own sets of values and who is to say what works for us is supposed to work for someone else. Even though I sense it was tinged with a bit of sarcasm, I appreciate Evan’s words to his detractor, essentially saying if it works for her “God bless you (her).” While I would also have a problem with the lap dance, Evan is not my husband, so it is essentially none of my business. I agree with his overall advice.
What is my business is knowing my own bottom lines are and then sticking to them. Part of the process of being with a sex addict is continually adjusting one’s bottom lines to accommodate the addict in ones’ life. For example, watching porn with your partner because you don’t want to be accused of being a “prude” even though it makes you feel creepy; or not speaking up when your spouse wants to go out with other women alone — and it doesn’t feel right in your gut — because you again don’t want want to be the party pooper.
A lot of people in this thread have said things like that there isn’t a lot you can do if your guy wants to cheat. I agree to some extent, but I think there are protections one can build into a relationship so that your guy is very clear about what kind of behavior you will and will not tolerate. If he really does love you and doesn’t want to wind up alone, he will be more likely to avoid those behaviors as long as you are clear at the beginning about those boundaries so he doesn’t feel like you’re doing a bait and switch. I’m making sure that those things are in my online dating profile (or questions) so potential partners know upfront where my boundaries lie. No surprises so they will not feel disappointed if I restate them later on. I can also tell you that based on my anecdotal data from talking with people in my job and on behavioral research, people will condition their behavior based on clearly communicated expectations of others. In other words, there are things you can do try to ensure that your (caring) partner will not cheat on you. If someone has an addictive personality (another red flag) or doesn’t truly care about you, these types of protections will be less effective.
On red flags, etc.: I really love Evan’s three step advice. So easy and so true. The first thing that I noticed in my relationship the sex addict was a general sense of discomfort when out and about with other people. I had never been a jealous girlfriend, but I started getting my feelings hurt when my then-boyfriend and I were out in groups. The reason was (and I couldn’t identify it at the time) that he showed no sense of romantic connection with me in public and was non-verbally communicating his availability to other women all of the time. Even if you can’t quantify it, I say honor those gut feelings because they are usually right on.
Another red flag: If you feel lonely even though you are in a relationship or feel like using drugs or alcohol more often (or working longer and later, etc.) then you were before, I’ve found that those are signs (to me) of my gut trying to tell me something about my primary relationship that I usually don’t want to hear.
Somebody else said you can tell a lot about a person’s character by other things in his life. I’m not so worried if he occasionally pays a bill late or something. I think how he treats other people is way more telling — especially those he doesn’t like or has had a falling out with.
@Kristina – #4
Does your boyfriend make you feel special and valued or do you get the sense that he is keeping his options open? If it’s the latter, I’d ask yourself if you really want to feel insecure while you’re sitting at home with a six month old baby and five inch stretch marks on your abdomen while your husband is MIA. Those insecure feelings don’t leave when you get married if your guy is not fully committed to you. As Evan says, believe the negatives not the positives, trust your gut and, if it’s not working for you, cut your losses and find someone new. Three years lost is still probably less than the rest of your remaining fertile years.
Mary says
Thankyou, this is great advice. It’s really helped me.
Gina says
I was reading through the comments. Someone mentioned that she thought it was classless for a man to go to strip clubs, for god sakes he isn’t going to one every night, it was for a bach. party. It’s harmless fun. While I wouldn’t be happy with my guy visiting strip clubs as a hobby, if it’s for a party that is fine. Trust, yes is the essence of being vulnerable, it’s definitely isn’t for the faint of heart, but in my opinion… sometimes as people men or woman, we know inside something isn’t right, but we lie to ourselves.
Still-Looking says
Kathleen @1 said it best – “Insecurity is not attractive for men or women If a guy Im with wants someone else he can go and Ill find someone better.”
If my girlfriend wants to watch Magic Mike, The Chippendales, or flirt with a guy at a bar I’m not going to be offended, hurt, or jealous. She is either faithful or she’s not and I don’t believe any of the actions above lead to a slippery slope to infidelity. To paraphrase Kathleen, if your partner wants to be with someone else, let him or her go and find someone who does want to be with you.
cakeeat2 says
True, but what about the ones that want a woman at home safe and secure that he can home to and have other women too, because he needs an ego boost to feel good about himself?
Tash says
Sorry Evan, you’ve lost me on the panties in the dryer. If you find physical evidence of your partner cheating & choose to ignore it, it tells alot about someone’s self esteem (or apparent lack of it). That’s not at all healthy.
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey Tash, go read the story about the panties and then come back and apologize. Thanks.
Rachael says
Hey now…Go ahead and question Evan when he says his wife found panties, but don’t question his wifes self esteem. Who knows what kind of story might be behind it.
And clearly there is one according to Evan’s above comment (which I will now go search for). 😉
Play fair when you call someones values into question.
sarahrahrah! says
The panties story is both hilarious and endearing, Evan. And so very Larry David/Curb Your Enthusiasm! Was there ever an episode based on it?
Katrina says
See i BELIEVE that this only works because most women are just not secure enough to fully trust their partner! I also think that what she doesn’t know can’t hurt her right? And the most successful marriages I have ever known are ones where the wife believes her marriage is hunky dory and her husband never cheats on her while he is busy having women on the side.
My ex ex husband has a wife who actually finds other women to sleep with. They are in saudi arabia at the moment so it is difficult for men to find willing women for nsa fun. He loves his wife more then anything because she never says no to him, allows his cake and to eat it too, and she is beautiful after two children. He often says that he can’t believe his luck. I asked him if it was okay for his wife to have other men and he said his wife doesn’t want too!
In my eyes this is completely unfair to the wife. Its as if she is settling to make him happy without any concern for herself. Of course he is happy in such an open marriage but what is the cost. Obviously being in a marriage and the luxuries that go with it are more important to her then her own self worth!
That is an extreme case but back to the men whose wives trust them completely not to actually cheat behind her back I think its a crock and alot of men are getting off the hook here. And they know it! A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back. Yet she believes that because they are open about everything he tells her the truth.
The fact is that women need to be more independent and men need to learn how to be grateful for what they have!
As for trust… well it is usually undeserved but we will always have a few idiot women who truly believe her husband doesn’t succumb to temptation behind her back.
Leo says
@Rachael
Thanks and congratulations to your parents. 40 years isn’t easy by any standards.
” To give someone that power again is not so easy. To give it in the first place isn’t easy. Proving that you’re worthy of it is hard enough. The trust thing takes a lot more than just knowing a relationship needs it. It takes a lot of strength and values from both sides. ”
You’re so on point. It may take some time, but you’re definitely going to be okay.
Kathleen says
Katrina
Are you saying that in all successful marriages the wife has her eyes closed while he cheats.???? I trusted my husband of 20 years so Im an idiot??? Most women aren’t secure enough to trust their partner??? What sort of people do you hang out with??
If you had an ex husband who has his current wife procure other women no wonder you have such a warped outlook.
Rachael says
@Katrina
You’re kidding right?
I don’t know what kind of screwed up world you grew up in, but that’s not the world I know.
I actually have real 40+ year marriages (several) to use as an example and that’s not the case at all! All the females in those marriages are strong, commanding, intelligent women.
If they chose to move on past infidelity at any point it was because they felt it was worth their while to do so. But I highly doubt any one of those women is the type to put up with any kind of bullshit from their man.
Clare says
Feeling secure and trusting in your relationship is a wonderful feeling, and I think it comes from a number of things. And so for what it’s worth, I think they are:
1) Choose men of integrity. I would say place this quality close to the top of your list of requirements in a partner. You really have only yourself to blame if you are dazzled by someone who demonstrates player behaviour.
2) Quality of your relationship. I think in a relationship where 2 people adore each other, the chances of cheating are low. What’s more, being adored brings with it its own feeling of security, as does knowing you are with someone who chooses to spend most of his free time with you.
3) Be aware of your own boundaries / comfort level. As Evan says, this differs from person to person and couple to couple, but I think it makes sense to choose someone who makes you (generally) comfortable, not someone who is setting off your radar on a weekly basis.
4) Evan may not agree with me on this, but I think the women here generally will – There are women who are drawn to men who are in committed relationships, and it’s wise to be careful of them. For me personally, it’s important to me to be with a guy who knows what he has in me, and can see these women for what they are.
These are my own personal guidelines for being trusting in a relationship, but I really do feel that you will know the strength of your relationship by the fact that trust comes naturally. Beyond that, live and let live – don’t give your devoted guy a hard time 🙂
Hope says
#23 EMK:
I think this was a good blog post and I also read and appreciated the original “panties in the dryer post”….but I too would like to know why the panties were in the dryer! Not pointing the finger…just quite curious! : )
Heather says
@ Clare,
I agree with you. I think there really are women who are drawn to guys in committed relationships. I’ve had friends who were involved with married men, and often that wasn’t the first married man they went for. There are women who are drawn to what the author of the “Baggage Reclaim UK” blog calls, “Mr. Unavailable.”
I can understand that some guys in committed relationships can be very attractive, but I also know that I’d be horrendously screwing up my karma, going after them. Once a guy is taken, hands off. I think it’s very rude to go after a guy whom you know is taken. A girlfriend of mine once unknowingly went after my now ex-boyfriend, she later told me that she had no clue he was dating me, because I was never mentioned in that group of friends during happy hours, etc. I had no problem with that and i told her so. She didn’t know, no harm, no foul.
Cheating is huge for me, I’ve been cheated on, a number of times, in my past. But now I have boundaries in place, and I’ve made it clear to guys I date now. Cheat once, you are gone, there is no second chance with me. Done.
sharon says
So at point do you got from trusting the negatives to trusting the guy with integrity? Trusting my gut this far hasn’t worked out so well for me, if it had I probably wouldn’t be reading this blog.
So exactly do you stop trusting the negatives?
Michelle says
This strategy works well when raising teenagers too :)…pre-teen, let them know you fully trust them, until they give you a reason not to, and remind them of that here and there throughout the years That has worked very well in my household.
This is an excellent article and how I treat the men I choose to date.
Helene, I loved your posts/comments. Good luck with your new relationship!
AtTheGymKim says
Thank you so much, Evan, for your reply to my inquiry. The panties in the dryer story was absolutely hysterical. And having been on the receiving end of that same type of innocent accusation where there is no way to prove yourself innocent, I know THAT feeling as well. I have since learned this is a tactic used by cheaters to defray the heat from their own behavior by making up some accusation about their partner:(
What you said, “Thus, the first thing you have to do, Kim, is to find a man that you completely trust, without a doubt.” is exactly what I am doing. I guess it just takes time to not only trust one’s own intuition about these things, but to see if the man’s character lines up with his words. I know you say never trust the words, only the actions. There is no real way to vaccinate yourself from being deceived. It is just knowing, having been through it before, that you recognize the signs, the feeling in your gut, and realize you have the strength to walk way, and not getting caught up in the fantasy of who you THINK they are, who you WISH they were, or who you NEED them to be and just observe who they ARE. I do appreciate everyone’s comments to the post, they are all immensely helpful!
Julia says
I am always trusting of the men I date, whether they deserved my trust or not I will never know because I don’t snoop or accuse them of cheating.
Chris says
I have been in a similar position. After a 19 year marriage, dating was new and after being with one man so long, although I knew what I didn’t want, I was still exploring and learning what I did want and part of that was undoing old habits. Part of dating right out of a long marriage is not letting your loneliness and new found separateness blur your boundaries. But it happens, because if you were like me, and ignored during your lonely marriage, it’s easy to go with a man that shows you attention and reawakens things that were dead in you. Even if he’s a player or unavailable. I think it is common. And ladies, it’s ok. Guys make the same mistakes and we need to experience players and unavailables to better define what we need and want. Kim recognized that a player is not what she wants and is looking for a game plan to avoid getting in that situation again. It is a process of learning and trial and error until you become solid again in your new life, being single, and finding fulfillment in other areas other than a relationship. I’ve gone through several players and unavailables. Avoiding players is not about trusting them unconditionally. It’s about setting up standards beforehand and as you date and go through the getting to know stage, you constantly hold them up to your standards, trusting they will follow through, but being comfortable enough to be alone rather than staying with them, when they break your trust or cross your boundaries. If lap-dancing is crossing your boundaries, that is fine and is your boundary, no one else’s and it’s not about not trusting the man. If you think watching porn is cheating, that is fine. It’s ok if that doesn’t suit you and that’s not the kind of man you want in your life and it doesn’t mean you think he’ll cheat. You just don’t like porn in your life, just like you might not want smoking in your life. I recently dated a man that was one of the first that didn’t want to get in my pants the first couple of dates. I was thrilled because I had finally decided that this was a boundary I no longer wanted crossed. He was fun, a gentleman, a flirt, outgoing and I knew he was on match and talking to multiple women at gatherings. That was not the problem. It was his deception. He was playing the field despite his initial words and actions about caring enough about me and a relationship to go slow. He had figured out, probably in some book or men’s blog, that pretending to be a gentleman and not trying to get sex right away is the way to a woman’s heart and a way to break down her boundaries and get what he wants. And what he wanted was all the fun (physical companionship) without the work or commitment. I knew pretty soon it would be a lot of work on my part to even get close to what I needed with this man. His deceptive, immature and confusing communications were the red flags. He was not honest with himself or me and actually lied about why he didn’t contact me one time. That is what I could not trust, not how he treated or acted around other women. Being a player doesn’t just mean playing with your body, there are plenty that play with your mind and emotions. And unfortunately, in my experience they are in the majority. As Evan has pointed out, men want the milk without buying the cow. But if they really want the milk and we put a price on it, they’ll buy it.
Nicole says
Yeah, there isn’t any way to control another person. And if you set up lots of rules that you think will keep your man or woman from cheating, most of which are kind of ridiculous, then he/she will just lie about what they are doing. And you are setting up a system where everything is an infraction, so you’re making someone seem worse than they are.
I don’t get why people think that controlling who their spouse is friends with, who he/she talks do, who his/her friends are, leads to a long, happy marriage.
It might result in a long marriage, but it will also result in someone who probably secretly resents you, is passive aggressively lashing out at you behind your back, and who is keeping secrets that could vary from innocuous to serious just b/c they fear you and your rules. And most importantly, the person will be unhappy and feel trapped (unless they have the courage to get out there and try again, although fear of being alone makes many people stay in unhappy and unfulfillling marriages).
I could never live that way, so why would I expect any man to want to. You’ll both be a lot happier and sleep better not always waiting for the shoe to drop. Trusting someone isn’t about a power struggle. It’s not about giving anyone power over me. It’s actually giving me control over myself, and my feeling is that anyone who really is lying or cheating will be revealed. But it doesn’t make me a sucker or a victim. I don’t want to play cop. Lying and deception takes a lot of work so you’ll always find out in the end. And I think acting like a prison guard at home just means that it will take LONGER b/c it will encourage more secrets.
I don’t want a husband who fears me, who can’t be himself with me, and who regrets meeting me. And I don’t want someone to stay with me out of fear while secretly hating the sight of me. That stuff totally happens. Why put yourself in that situation?
If I trust someone who winds up being a liar, what have I lost? I just move on.
Trenia says
I hate to get all biblical, but I love that saying “be wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove”. I believe in trusting your partner, while also being wise and observant. Also, I find the never say never people when it comes to cheating are often cheated on. The reality is we live in a world that makes cheating so easy and lots of women have been cheated on. And while a lot of the scenarios mentioned in this thread are not considered slippery slopes for some, they have been slippery slopes for many people. Some of the most honest, trusting people have cheated, that’s the truth.
I think it’s important for a woman to trust her man, but he also needs to be clear about his actions and make it plain about her role in his life. If a man has a lot of female friends, the onous is on him to let his woman know that she is #1 in his life, that’s not about trust that’s common sense. These kinds of scenarios remind me why the dating scene can be challenging when only women ask for relationship advice, because what men need to know about women is that we often feel insecure. It’s not a constant state of mind for most healthy women, but it happens from time to time. We live in a world where bodies of female olympic athletes are criticized and scored by the media, then we’re surprised when an average woman is a little insecure around other attractive women? Come on. Sometimes we need some re-assurance, not all the time but just a little reminder that she’s his priority goes a long way.
Heather says
Trenia,
I’m with you there. I trust my boyfriend but I’ve learned to still be mindful, and to not let my emotions or my heart carry me away. He’s actually pretty good about telling me where he’s going or whom he is with. Thus far, I trust him, until he gives me a reason not to. If he does stray, well then I know that I will be strong enough to curse him out, send him packing, and move on. In that order.
I’ve grown strong enough to know and trust my own boundaries, that they are boundaries that come out of loving and honoring myself and what I want and need out of a man, and also a need for no drama in my life. Cheating is a very firm boundary and it has worked well for me. I’ve dated players before, and once I’d find that out, I stopped seeing them, and a few tried to get back with me but I just made it clear that they were not what I wanted anymore and that I wanted a real commitment.
If my man cheats, so be it. It will be his karma and it will come back on him, not me, and reflects upon a serious lack of character on his part, not mine. Until then, I’m just going to keep going along and assuming that I do not have a reason to not trust him.
Lily2 says
@ Katrina
Help me understand this…
” A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back.”
Help me understand this. You state they have an “open marriage.” How does one cheat in an OPEN relationship? Do you mean he has more women than he admits to?
Jo says
I am sure Kim has been burned in the past (haven’t we all). It is our choice to take that distrut to the next relationship. We have the power to accept the new guy for every word he says..yet that damn voice in your head says “You have been burned before, don’t trust him.”….well silence taht voice. Go with your facts and if he has never given you reason to doubt him then DON’T. There are great guys out there…but often times a woman won’t see it simply because she has been burned in the past by a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT guy. So, don’t push your insecurities and doubt onto a man who has shown you nothing but love and respect and honesty.
I actually took my own advice and met a great guy..given we are having some issues now…it has NOTHING to do with trust. I trust him 100% and it feels good. Once a relationship is over, learn from it, and move on but do NOT bring it with you into the next relationship as it will hurt and affect it…start fresh. Keep your lessons from the past but leave the rest….
Fusee says
Thank you, Evan, for this brilliant post on such a foundamental topic in relationships! You really have a knack to tackle difficult and sensitive topics in a pleasant way.
Trust really is the foundation of a solid and happy relationship. But trust has to be earned. To my opinion, the healthiest way to proceed is by assuming the best of people while being very attentive to what they say and how they behave. As other commenters have pointed it out, it’s essential to refrain from dragging past hurts in a new relationship. Take your new experience-based wisdom with you, but not any mistrust, negative assumptions and excessive boundaries. Take a dating break until you can truly start fresh and give people a true chance at earning your trust.
A first couple of dates in public places in daylight hours is a perfectly safe and effective way to earn basic trust (showing up on time, in appropriate attire, being respectful in language and actions, etc). Then sharing more vulnerable facts of ones life and establishing boundaries, and observing their reaction would be the next step and allow to hopefully build more trust. Are they judgmental and critical or can they accept mishapps and mistakes? Can they respect boundaries or are they pressuring you to overstep them? If everything goes well over a few weeks or months, the last step is opening up to more sensitive and private matters and discover if they can truly accept you, keep confidentiality when requested, and in general make you feel safe and comfortable. Opting out is possible at any time.
I agree that acceptance is a big part of trust. After all, what is the point of being the partner of someone you can’t accept? However I strongly believe in the right of having personal limits, therefore I would like to highlight this part from Evan‘s post:
“Wherever you draw the line becomes the line.”
Indeed it’s okay to not be comfortable with some behaviors and it’s okay to draw the line somewhere. There is someone for everyone. Simply observe how they live their life, ask questions about concerning matters, communicate your needs, and make the choice to continue or opt out based on your investigation.
I’m into freedom as well, and do not intend to pressure anyone into giving their freedom up, but personally I’m not comfortable with the level of freedom that Evan and his wife offer to one another. Why? It’s because I think that relationships need two kinds of energies: NURTURE and PROTECTION. Even if you nurture your relationship to perfection (as Evan and his wife seem to be doing), you are not immune to the possibilty of future seasons of life where your nurturing energy is going to be lower, and at those times, it’s how well protected the relationship has been that will make it last through these extended periods of low nurturing energy. For example, being constantly stimulated by the other gender – physically and/or emotionally – might not have any impact during the high or neutral seasons of a relationship, but this stimulation can become a real relationship-killer in times of lows.
The world is not black or white, like a world of people of solid character and of people of low morals. A world of people who are going to refrain from cheating, and of the ones who are going to cheat. People who cheat or not all womanizers or players. Lot of people with perfect track record of integrity have cheated. Not because they planned it, but because “it just happened”. It “just happens” when difficult circumstances and unfortunate opportunities align perfectly.
Let’s say your marriage is hitting a low because your partner has suffered of ill health for a while and has been unavailable to nurture the relationship. They might even have been difficult to deal with. And during these trying times one of your friend/coworker/gym buddy that you had harmless weekly lunches with progressively becomes your main source of attention and emotional comfort, without you to even notice what is happening. Hey you’re used to do whatever you want, with your partner’s blessing. Add to this scenario that the friend has recently become a bit desperate themselves and ready – even unconsciously – to try their luck on you, and you have the recipe for a “it just happened” situation. No player involved. No previous red-flag behavior. Just a lack of understanding of how life works, just a lack of protection by not having a lifestyle compatible with future lows.
That’s why I believe that successful relationships must involve a decision to restrict willingly one’s own freedom to a reasonable degree. Not because of demands and threats of the other party, not because of insecurities, but because of common sense. A relationship needs nurture AND protection. Anticipating future lows is necessary. Thinking you will be immune of lows is foolish. You will hit lows. The question is not IF but WHEN you will. Where you draw the line is up to you and your partner. It’s another area where to find compromise, or opt out if you can not define mutually agreed-upon limits.
Simply granting/asking for full acceptance no matter how risky the behaviors will become under more testing circumstances does not makes me feel safe for the future. Therefore I’m making sure to cover these difficult conversations with my boyfriend to make sure we can create a safe environment, based on trust, reasonable freedom, and acceptance, but also on common sense and wisdom.
Kay says
So very well stated.
Dagaz says
Evan, i like your respond, no doubt, but there’s a huge difference between marriage and “just” a relationship, even committed one. Or between marriage and a newly-fresh relationship. And so on. It feels very different, especially for a man.
Trust takes time to build up, also it takes a lot of time until man will be open emotionally, especially if he has a certain bad experience. In most of cases, he will would like to keep his options open, without being a player, but it will hurt woman, indeed. Am i right?..
Also – yes, if man wants to cheat, he will. But, i’d say, the woman’s concern is not his loyality so much, but she would like to know the truth, so she won’t be fooled for long time.
Hope says
Re: my post #31….I found the panties story and it’s incredible (when I wrote the last post, I had failed to click the hyperlink back to the first story). And what a beautiful house you have, if it’s the CYE episode I’m thinking of!
My trust story:
I am eight months into a good relationship with a good man who I adore.
This followed 6+ years of bad luck and bad decisions and having my trust violated in a series of shoulda-known-better relationships. At the beginning of my current relationship (initiated on Match.com), I was extremely cynical on the inside. Never mind keeping expectations low– I had practically no faith whatsoever in the relationship because of what had happened to me so consistently before. Luckily, and with help from this blog, I was able to keep a level head (at least on the outside) and keep my baseless suspicions (i.e., “When we talked tonight, he said he’d call me again on Thursday….he must be seeing another woman on Wednesdays!”) to myself.
I just kept reminding myself that this guy was not those guys from before. This guy is new to me, and has so far done nothing wrong and everything right. And acting untrusting, suspicious or insecure is guaranteed to be a turnoff. It really was a revelation….time and time again, my secret insecurities were proven completely wrong.
Example: back in January, just a couple months or so into the relationship, he suggests we go to Vegas for a weekend. I enthusiastically agree and he says he’ll take care of the booking, assuming he can get the weekend I suggested to him. A couple weeks go by with no more mention of the trip. I start to assume he’s preparing to dump me or is seeing someone else. I receive a text from him one evening while standing in line at Whole Foods, that says “I emailed you about the trip. Let’s talk later.” I reply, “Can you let me know now?” He responds “I’m in the car…will be home in 45 minutes”. This strikes me as guilty avoidance and I am nearly in tears all the way home. When I finally get home to my laptop, I open his email to see the flight and hotel itinerary taken care of for the dates in late February I had requested, plus tickets for a helicopter ride over the Grand Canyon “as a Valentine’s present.”
By actual Valentine’s Day, my faith in the poor man was still lacking, and as we hadn’t discussed Valentine’s plans the preceding weekend, I was in a real funk on Monday (VDay was a Tuesday). All day at work I was moody and even contemplated making plans with a single gal pal on Valentine’s so I could whine about my life. But sure enough, just as I finished work, I received a text from my man saying he’ll call in a bit so we can make plans for the weekend…and “don’t forget to leave tomorrow night open for me to take you to a Valentine’s dinner : )”.
Around the same time, a new female intern was put under his supervision at his male-dominated office…a 24-year old girl who had gone to the same college as him (he’s 39). He arranged to carpool with her because she also lives in his neighborhood. Despite this being the makings of a nightmare of suspicion for me, I kept my cool, kept a smile on my face, and never made any expression of jealousy, worry or distrust in regards to her. Over time, not only did my boyfriend disclose that the intern is herself in a long-term relationship, but also that while he was friendly with her at first, he quickly came to find her rather irritating and immature. I also met her and her man this summer at a pool party, and came away feeling confident there never was anything to worry about.
Did I mention this man of mine is also handsome, funny, meticulously tidy, a well-paid lawyer, French and also owns a furnished apartment in Paris?
Dreams do come true! : )
I just met his mother, who was visiting from France, and was invited on a two week family vacation with him and his folks.
It’s still too early to feel completely sure of our future together, but I do have faith now, and I trust him completely. It’s so nice to be able to relax and enjoy loving and being loved. This would NEVER have happened if I had voiced my irrational suspicions, or had otherwise given up on or sabotaged the relationship, early in the game when I was still licking old wounds. I just kept cool, kept a smile on my face, and reminded myself not to punish him for my exes’ misdeeds.
Thank you Evan!!!
Katrina says
Lily2 41
@ Katrina
Help me understand this…
” A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back.”
Help me understand this. You state they have an “open marriage.” How does one cheat in an OPEN relationship? Do you mean he has more women than he admits to?
I mean every relationship has rules including “Open” marriages. His wife allows him out and to sleep with other women and he shares her with his mates. You would think he’d be satisfied but she is always watching the clock to make sure he is home directly after work!
I know because he tried to meet up with me during work hours! Hedge fund bastard!
I’m sorry people.. but I have been dating for only 2 years now and in that time almost every single one of my friends and neighbors have made moves on me! Some with absolutely stunning wives!
I am not all that great looking but I am a bit of a kinky slut who can appear deceptively open minded.
I find that more men open up to me as a result!
And what I found is that most women live in a dream world where their husbands would never cheat! TBH most don’t realize that he is taking that business trip and having a date at the same time. Or late for work because he was busy in a day hotel.
These men are two different people! At home they are the ideal husband, seem attentive, sex life is great, always has time for his wife. Yet so many men complain that although they love their wives they just need that bit of excitement on the side!
i don’t agree with it at all. But I think men who are faithful to their wives are few and far between! The ones who don’t cheat usually can’t find someone to cheat with them and can’t be bothered to make too much effort.
It is hard work to find women to sleep with when your single let alone when your married.
btw I don’t hate men! I love them.. but I have yet to find one that can keep his dick in his pants when tempted!
David T says
Define “putting the moves on you.” Some people flirt for fun and for some couples that is perfectly acceptable. It does not mean they would ever act on it. Now if someone grabs your breast and puts their tongue in your mouth, that is different!
The men I know well and hang around with would not cheat on their partners, ever. I don’t seem them hitting on women etc. etc. Maybe I am naïve, but I can’t imagine the people I know are completely unusual.
Fiona says
Katrina, are these people all Essex boy bankers with too much money and not enough brains by any chance? If so, I nothing would surprise me. A few weeks ago I stayed with friends in a wealthy part of Canary Wharf for the weekend and in the two days I was there we saw at least 4 hookers in the building. However, they are in no way representative of the majority of the population so you may have a very skewed view of the world.
Katrina says
David in my experience any man who flirts is easy pickings for a bit of naughty time!
I have tested it and asked them straight if they would like a bj and not one has ever turned me down!
Not one!
Leesa says
hi
there are two things i want to write here. the last guy i was with knew exactly what to say to me to make me feel very safe and secure with him. i thought he was the most loyal, genuine guy and that he would never cheat on me. after he left me for another women (after i found out about her – he was sleeping with both of us for a couple of weeks), i found out that he had cheated on his wife (he told me that she had cheated on him). so there are these guys, who ease you into a false sense on security so that they can have you at home when they get home, and they can chase other women when they’re out, and you wouldn’t suspect or expect for a minute what they are doing. so in this case, it’s very difficult to judge clearly. i think that’s how it happens to women. they believe what they are told and they trust their partners.
two days ago, i was told by a construction worker that when his gang works out of town, every single guy in the gang (except 1), is cheating on their wives (or chasing other women). now, i think those women would be sitting at home, not expecting their husbands to be cheating on them. it’s saddened me to hear that all bar one guy was cheating. but then i was grateful that there was one not cheating and i hoped that that is the type of guy i find in the future … if i adhere to evan’s dating advice.
Helen says
I think most flirting is harmless. If a man flirts, that doesn’t mean that he wants to (all things considered) sleep with the woman with whom he’s flirting. Nor does it mean that he is untrustworthy.
The only real danger is when one person is being lighthearted about flirtation and the other party takes it more seriously than was intended. But if it’s done in a culture or a sub-culture where everyone is on the same page about it, then flirting is harmless, and even nice and flattering. I can’t flirt to save my life, but like it when other people (men AND women) flirt with me. It cheers me up.
So, David T, I agree with you on that.
More generally, I agree with everyone above who has said that you can’t stop another person from cheating. The only person you can control without causing resentment elsewhere is yourself. I think the majority of people at least have the INTENTION not to cheat on loved ones. So if you want to align yourself with a trustworthy person, the first thing to do is to gauge how he feels about the topic (when you’re close enough to do so), and to share honestly and without anger how you feel. That way, you’ll learn if you’re on the same page. But remember that you can’t change another person easily.
Heather says
@ Leesa,
I totally understand that. My best friend is a military contractor and often goes over to war zones for work. He’s come home telling me all kinds of stories about people over there (men AND women, military AND civilian) who cheat on their partners/spouses. He told me that sadly, the majority of them do, and he would know, he’s been in the military and now as a civilian, been on numerous tours to the Middle East, so he’s seen alot.
In fact, I dated a few military contractors and each and every time, they were playing me. Every. Time. They saw me as an easy target because I wanted to not be a jaded, cynical bitch, and try to believe them and take their words at face value. My best friend finally talked to me last spring while home on 30-day R&R, and said gently that I’d probably be better off if I just avoided dating military or military contractors for awhile, due to this problem with fidelity (or lack thereof) when these guys are overseas.
Are there military guys and contractors who are faithful? Indeed there are, my best friend worked with a good few of them who were excellent husbands and fathers. Sadly, that was the minority though.
So, I learned to weed them out. If they wrote to me on PlentyOfFish, I either chose not to respond, or responded stating that I no longer wished to date anyone in the military. Did it narrow my pool? Considering that I live not far from the Pentagon, you had better believe it. I live in a hotbed of military and military contractors so you basically cannot swing a dead cat without hitting one, here. But the amount of drama in dating, dropped so much. I was more at peace. I could enjoy other aspects of my life without that awful knot in my stomach.
Ileana says
Wow, Katrina’s comments in #46 and #49 kinda freaked me out…. I cannot understand how these guys would simply risk their marriage only for a fling.
Anyways, all this reminded me of a movie with Jennifer Love Hewit on this very topic. It’s called ‘The truth about love’. (SPOILER ALERT AHOY!) So the main character (JLH) sends her husband, a very successful lawyer, on Valentines day a prank letter, making it seem as if it was from another woman who admired him. She was very surprised when he didnt mention anything about the letter and this made her even more curious about what exactly her husband is thinking. The situation then evolved from naughty texts to a meeting at a hotel, where she asked him to blindfold himself at the door, in order not to see her. He had sex with her, without even knowing who she was! Needless to say, he not only theoretically cheated on his wife with a ‘stranger’, but also on his long term mistress.
Needless to say, when he found out about this, he wasn’t exacly happy.
Evan, what do you think of such a move? Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies? Or is this just plain rude?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Ileana: Seriously? What do I think of sending fake flirty messages to my spouse in hopes that she fails to fall for such entrapment? I think you’d have to be either a) paranoid, b) psychotic or c) in a really, really bad relationship to consider doing that.
Paragon says
@ Katrina
“My ex ex husband”
What is an ex ex husband?
Is that another way of saying, you divorced him, and then remarried him again?
“He often says that he can’t believe his luck. I asked him if it was okay for his wife to have other men and he said his wife doesn’t want too!
In my eyes this is completely unfair to the wife. Its as if she is settling to make him happy without any concern for herself.”
On the contrary, perhaps she places more value on her keeping him happy.
She is also probably savvy enough to realize that, if she can abide his open promiscuity, it is less of a threat to her.
“That is an extreme case but back to the men whose wives trust them completely not to actually cheat behind her back I think its a crock and alot of men are getting off the hook here. And they know it! A friend of mine has an open marriage and his wife allows threesomes and he is always cheating on her behind her back. Yet she believes that because they are open about everything he tells her the truth.
The fact is that women need to be more independent and men need to learn how to be grateful for what they have!”
Perhaps, it is the wives who are grateful for what they have – it is only a select minority(think 10-20%) of males who are attractive enough to indulge in these kinds of arrangements.
And this should be an expected trade-off to mating with a male who is of substantially higher value than themselves.
“As for trust… well it is usually undeserved but we will always have a few idiot women who truly believe her husband doesn’t succumb to temptation behind her back.”
I recall in Evan’s entry concerning Attractive men not always making the best husbands there was an insightful post from a woman who admitted that this was the price(ie. infidelity, abuse, etc.) many are willing to pay, in indulging a high value male.
Of course, they reserve the right to vent, even if it is nothing more than catharsis.
“I’m sorry people.. but I have been dating for only 2 years now and in that time almost every single one of my friends and neighbors have made moves on me! Some with absolutely stunning wives!
I am not all that great looking but I am a bit of a kinky slut who can appear deceptively open minded.”
From which we might conclude that men(perhaps in a frigid marriage) are drawn to your reputation.
“I find that more men open up to me as a result!”
Go figure.
“i don’t agree with it at all. But I think men who are faithful to their wives are few and far between! The ones who don’t cheat usually can’t find someone to cheat with them and can’t be bothered to make too much effort.”
Risk averse males with healthy sex lives and only inferior options(ie. less attractive than wife) have more to lose, than gain.
So, it occurs that if women want to minimize risk, they should order their prospects accordingly, rather than just trying to maximize the most superficial traits.
But, if it is TRUST that you want, either learn to trust the one you love, or learn to love those who are TRUSTWORTHY(if you are concerned with that trust being justified).
“btw I don’t hate men! I love them.. but I have yet to find one that can keep his dick in his pants when tempted!”
This is only relevant with respect to purportedly monogamous males.
If so, it is not surprising, given that fidelity is inconspicuous, and requires more information of the system to be inferred.
Fiona says
Katrina, what on earth? The onus is on the party in the relationship not to cheat but offering blow jobs to married men? Not sure what you get out of this or what your own dating objectives are but what goes around tends to come around and carrying on like this isn’t likely to get you a committed relationship nor help your long term self esteem.
Wendy says
@Leesa 50: I understand and sympathize with you for getting played like a violin. I try to enter each new relationship with an open mind (and a closed mouth) regarding my fears about getting cheated on again. Yes, I said again, because it’s happened to me a lot. I love it when people tell me I’m “choosing the wrong men.” These guys have all been upstanding citizens chock full of integrity, and yet they still cheat. It’s not like they wear t-shirts with “CHEATER” on the front, so please tell me how I’m “choosing” players! One guy was home with me every night, did all the right things, was very affectionate and sweet, and it turns out he was sleeping with a co-worker on his lunch hour. I completely trusted this guy–he’d given me no reason not to. I only found out because another co-worker felt sorry for me and filled me in, and after a little investigating I found it was true. But it always makes me laugh when another brilliant person tells me I choose the wrong men. The bottom line is, I have to believe that there is a man out there who feels as strongly as I do that a solid, loving, respectful relationship is better than the “excitement” of a little on the side. The man I’m dating now seems to be that guy, but I can promise you this: I will not bury my head in the sand and pretend he isn’t capable of cheating; but I won’t go looking for it or poison the relationship with mistrust because he hasn’t done anything wrong yet.
Heather says
@ Wendy,
I understand how you feel, I really do. My aunt and uncle are a PRIME example of what you are talking about. They married young, just outta high school. Had 3 kids and I think 5-6 grandkids together. They’d been together forever. Until last year, when he decided to have some kind of midlife crisis, said that my aunt didn’t truly love him (my uncle really needs to see a shrink, he’s psycho), and walked out. And has come back. And walked out. Done this back and forth thing, a few times. Why my wonderful aunt hasn’t cursed this jerk out and sent him to the curb with the trash, I have no idea.
But how was she to know, that he’d do this almost 40 years down the road? It wasn’t like my uncle had a t-shirt with “Asshole” on it, when she met him. My grandparents raised him with much better morals and values, and he was very active in church and whatnot (then again, thinking about that, that should have been everyone’s first clue, IMO). I don’t know that she’d really had a bad “picker” it’s just that he flaked out, decided not to commit, and walked.
This isn’t to say that we women bear no responsibility in a relationship going wrong. However, we can go in as best we can, make an educated leap of faith, and still have it go wrong. And yes it hurts when we’re told we choose the wrong men. I was stung when I met a guy, while going through my divorce, and things were going great. My family loved him, friends thought he was pretty decent, we were doing fine. Then, out of nowhere, I find out that his Mom was talking smack about me behind my back for being divorced, even though she knew I was a survivor of domestic violence. It turned out that I had a total coward and Mama’s boy on my hands. People told me that I picked the wrong man. I sat there and went look. I went in with good intentions, paid close attention for warning signs, didn’t see any glaring problems, and we had had a pretty healthy relationship.
It can sting when we’re judged like that, and folks don’t know the whole story. Again, sure, we often do pick the wrong guy, absolutely. But we aren’t going to see everything coming down the pike.
Ileana says
@Evan: Well, i didn’t say doing that in the hopes of her falling for it. Just as to observe the reaction. If she’d respond, wouldn’t that be a bad sign?
This whole idea probably seems ridiculous, but just reading some of the comments in here makes me confused. Why would somebody, male or female, who is in a happy relationship and gets all their needs met, still feel the need to cheat? And why would they then pretend that they are soo close to their partner and romantic etc etc. ?
I. JUST. DON’T. GET. IT! Maybe i’m just too young and with really little experience in this area, but… wouldn’t it be A LOT easier to end the relationship and start a new one, instead of cheating?…
Clare says
@ Heather # 32
I am with you on that. Cheating is a non-negotiable deal-breaker for me, and I have always known that. Guys I have been with have known that upfront as well.
It may seem a little harsh to some, but in setting this boundary my goal is not to judge the other person, but just simply that I know myself, and I know that this is something *I* cannot come back from. There are many other things I can forgive and let slide, and I fully believe that each person has the right to set what is and isn’t a dealbreaker for him or her.
(On that note, I was reading Evan’s post about Dan Savage’s take on the virtues of infidelity, and it ties in quite nicely with this post.)
Ana says
@ Henriette: ”What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”
That’s disgusting, I feel sorry for her…
Ellen says
Ana: There’s a local pizza place here that ONLY hires young girls with perfect figures. So transparent…..
Oh, wait, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox etc. do that also. But at least the old stereotype that good looking people can’t be intelligent is finally being laid to rest (for the most part anyway). 🙂
Heather says
@ Clare,
You put it beautifully. I know myself very well, and abuse and cheating are two that I will never be able to come back from. Trust is very big for me and if that trust is violated in any way, well, sorry, it’s gone and probably won’t be back so why should I date someone I don’t trust. Been there, and done that, and enough is enough now. It’s time to do what Paige Parker calls “Dating Without Drama” and time to set good, healthy boundaries to protect my sanity.
Judgment, well, I would just go so far as to say hey, what they did reflects upon some pretty serious character flaws, but it’s not my place to seriously wish them ill, or take revenge. I’ve had a couple of cases where “the best revenge is living well” has worked beautifully for me.
Mia says
Yes, a large number of men cheat- as I’ve posted before, I and every girl I know have been propositioned by attached guys. But I’m still not one of those cynical types that think all men cheat. I had a bf when I was younger who would have been great husband material – a nerdy 35 yo guy who had only had 11 sex partners, hardly any luck with women, and was kind, thoughtful, and was one of the only guys I’ve ever dated who didn’t make a big fuss over my looks. He never would have cheated. We broke up for legitimate reasons, but really, how many women want to date an honest, decent man like this ? They want a hotter, more exciting guy. If you go for more attractive types who have bedded a lot of chicks, what do you think is gonna happen? Men like Evan who have been serial daters and are good lookng flirts simply aren’t good bets – Evan himself may not cheat, as it would ruin his cred as a dating coach, but generally serial daters are not good bets. I dont feel like playing the alpha male lottery and frankly it’s like owning a white expensive coat – too much work to ensure it stays clean. Better to get the less stylish black pea coat on sale.
Fluffilion says
I was in a relationship last year with similar situation. Although he had strings of unfortunate and short past relationships, he seems like a decent guy, and I thought his breakups were because he hasn’t met “the one”. *Sigh * I thought I could change him when the time is right.
It started innocent enough, he needs time with the boys, liked lots of space, loved making new friends. Instead of spending lots of time with me he would rather go drinking with his friends. Later, he started to ask strange women he met at gatherings for their phone numbers and out to dinner secretly. Whenever I confronted him, he always says he is just making new friends. I wasn’t comfortable about his action, but told myself I should trust him, and which successful and self-absorbed guy isn’t flirty or attracting to other women. Again, I thought he would settle down when he finally grows up and can start viewing a monogamy relationships as a bliss instead of burden.
Sad to say I was very surprised when he broke up with me for another woman after a year relationship. He was just waiting for someone better to come along before he would leave me. I agree with what Evan says– trust your gut feeling. Deep down I knew all along that he was looking to trade up, that’s why his behaviors were so disturbing to me. When a relationship feels wrong, it probably is wrong.
The best relationship advice I would give myself is, besides attractions and personality, find a man you can fully trust and love him unconditionally.
Ruby says
@ Ellen: What makes you assume that Ana’s friend isn’t good-looking as well? Her boyfriend sounds like an an inconsiderate clod. And what should she do? Tell him, in front of their friends, that his behavior is unacceptable.
Really, I’m not getting the “boys will be boys” mentality that claims that it is acceptable to leer at other women in front of your significant other. My boyfriend might comment that a certain celebrity is attractive, but he will not talk about her nice ass or boobs to me. Why would he think I would want to hear that?
Nicole says
Ugh, can we ever have these discussions without it turning into a post about how much men use and abuse women?
Seriously, some men cheat, some women cheat. Some men are dishonest, some women are dishonest.
The point is that you shouldn’t treat every man (or women) like a cad just b/c some are. Keep your eyes open b/c people will always show you who they really are, even if SOME of them can hide it for longer periods of time than others.
I personally think that flirts are not more likely to be cheaters since cheating involves hiding what you are like. And it’s nice to be around people who make you feel good and I am capable of understanding that most people who flirt with me do not want to run away with me.
helene says
Henriette: ”What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”
Well, as a small boobed woman myself, what I would do in this situation is say ” God yes, David is crazy for big boobed blondes…. You know this one time, he drove over a senior citizen with his shopping cart in the mall when this booby blonde woman appeared – the poor old man was crippled, we had to call an ambulance….” or something of that sort… At the end of the day, the guy is with the small breasted brunette, so how seriously interested in the blonde waitresses can he be??! As even points out, its not really what men say its what the do that matters, and if this guy has chosen a small breasted brunette for a partner… well, it speaks for itself. Equally, as a woman, I might remark on a particularly fit looking 20 something guy in front of my partner, but at 47, I’d be quite staggered if he seriously took that to mean I wanted that young guy as my boyfriend – it would be simply absurd! Have some common sense, people!
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks to Helene and Nicole for bringing us back to reality. If you think men are the enemy, you’re not only blind, but you’re likely to drive any good man away with your negative beliefs.
I know this is a forum for advice – and with that, some venting is inevitable – but I’m always amazed at how anyone who fundamentally doesn’t trust men or is hypersensitive to real thoughts from real men (yes, like me) can function in a long-term relationship.
My litmus test is that if you ever get mad at me (not disagree with me) for something I wrote here, I would pity anyone who has to date you. Chances are, you don’t care to understand men, listen to logic, or deal well when reality doesn’t conform to your fantasies about how things should be.
Ana says
@ Evan #69: I totally get what you’re saying and it is 100% true, but unfortunately trusting men after you’ve been ”burned” so much is easier than done. I don’t hate men, I don’t even like the word hate, and I don’t get mad, but women complain and are insecure for a reason… I do want a great, healthy, happy relationship, it’s just that the more experience I’ve got, the more I see and hear, the less I believe in men.
@helene #68: Ok, he might be with the small-breasted brunette, but still it’s offensive and disrepectful… I don’t think people realize how much of a ”punch in the stomach” it can be. Plus, I think there are guys who are in relationships just for the sake of being in a relationship, and not ’cause they really love their girlfriends… I think a comment like that might leave Henriette’s friend wondering ”Why is he with me then? Does he even care about me?”, which causes terrible insecurities. I’m not saying he should think the waitress is ugly, but if she’s so relevant that he dhumiliates his partner because of her than you can’t expect the gf to be cool…
Ruby says
What men say matters if a the comment is demeaning or humiliating. There are people who are emotionally abusive who are never physically abusive, but that doesn’t make the emotional disrespect okay. Besides, the man going on and on about the waitress could ask her out quite easily. Maybe busty blonds have always been his fantasy partner, and he merely settled for the brunette, who knows? If making a joke about it suits you, great, but I wouldn’t just sit there in silence.
The vast majority of my coupled friends have never cheated on their partners (to my knowledge), and never would. And no, I don’t hate men. I have a wonderful boyfriend (who was not easy to find, btw), and my best friend is a guy. It’s easy to be positive around by boyfriend because he’s kind and thoughtful. But not all men are created equal. Isn’t that the point of this blog? To find the nice guys and avoid the jerks?
Julia says
I would tend to agree with Ana and Ruby that a man who makes that comment is classless and likely emotionally abusive. No one who actually cares about their partner goes out of their way to embarrass them.
Hope says
As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
“The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”
Paragon says
@ Katrina
“David in my experience any man who flirts is easy pickings for a bit of naughty time!
I have tested it and asked them straight if they would like a bj and not one has ever turned me down!
Not one!”
You are observing a biased sample – men who flirt with you.
Which goes back to what I said about indications of infidelity being more conspicuous, and thus tending to dominate our perceptions.
For the record, I don’t flirt – as I think doing so when attached is the height of boorishness.
@ Ileana
“Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies?”
That depends on if you would define ‘cheating’ to include responding to anonymous texts.
“Or is this just plain rude?”
Only if it becomes obvious – and then it is more stupid then rude.
But, if I was tested in this manner by someone I love, I can’t honestly say it would bother me(she would just be wasting her time).
“Why would somebody, male or female, who is in a happy relationship and gets all their needs met, still feel the need to cheat?”
Because, men want sex.
Lots of sex.
With lots of different women.
Those with means and opportunities will exploit them, unless they are exceptions who are poorly sexually motivated, are risk averse(and feel their SO justifies their fidelity), or have been socialized to be sexually passive(ie. they were ugly ducklings who were discouraged through a history of rejection).
“wouldn’t it be A LOT easier to end the relationship and start a new one, instead of cheating?”
No, because they see their LTR as security to fall back on when the casual pickings are slim.
@ Wendy
“It’s not like they wear t-shirts with “CHEATER” on the front, so please tell me how I’m “choosing” players!”
No one is telling you that.
However, that is what YOU are telling us.
“The bottom line is, I have to believe that there is a man out there who feels as strongly as I do that a solid, loving, respectful relationship is better than the “excitement” of a little on the side.”
There probably is – one who is sexually passive, without options, or a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections.
The question is, will you be attracted to such a man?
I think the limiting factor for all problems of relationship stability, is an increasing tendency to disassortative mating.
Most single women I have observed(in the OLD demographic), are ignoring their nearest male equivalents in favor of interacting with more attractive options, even where these interactions are invariably short-term(they would rather play the longest odds, than make any concessions towards more stable interactions) – to these women, I would say that securing a LTR is evidently a low priority(even if they fail to realize it).
Evan Marc Katz says
@Paragon – Dude, get out of your black and white, biological evolutionary bubble.
You said that the only man who believes in a solid, loving, respectful relationship is one who is “sexually passive, without options, or a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections.”
What are you, a lower mammal? A neanderthal who can’t override his biological impulse to spread his seed?
There are millions and millions of married faithful men who stay faithful because what they GAIN from their monogamy is GREATER than the thrill of random sex and infidelity.
It’s a choice, bro. I’m the first to acknowledge that I’m always attracted to other women. But as a sexually aggressive guy who had many options when he was single, it wouldn’t occur to me that throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill would be a good idea.
Stop trying to speak for good men who knew when to retire from screwing around and sincerely want to grow old alone with a life partner. Evidently, you don’t know crap about us.
Clare says
I have to say Evan, I so agree with you @ 75.
My life is replete with good, solid men of integrity who would never dream of cheating on their wives, despite whatever biological impulses they might have. This is the model I was raised with, this is how my brothers were raised, and most of the guys I know. I have never been cheated on (to my knowledge).
I can *only* speak from my own experience, I know, and not to deny the experience of others, but I would submit that faithful men are in fact everywhere you look 🙂
David T says
@75
Thank you, Evan. Yeah, it turns out humans are more than their lizard brain. This gets swept under the rug in these blog discussions often when people lay out laws about how men and woman should behave in dating situations “because we evolved that way.” huh?
@71,72 and many others.
You make a judgement based on your own perspective about what should bother a woman. Personally, I think it is boorish (as Paragon put it; heck, I will add to that, creepy) to loudly announce “I looooove big-boobed blondes” whether you have an attached relationship or not. There are crowds/sub-cultures where that is OK. I accept that. There are probably relationships where it is OK too.
If this man’s girlfriend is not OK with it and she has communicated that to him and he behaves that way anyway, it is disrespectful and emotionally abusive.
If a woman knows her guy loves her, is faithful and she is content with her body image, no matter what he admires physically, then that is not going to bother her. If it doesn’t bother her, it isn’t emotionally abusive.
Don’t automatically judge what should bother someone, just because it would bother you. That is presumptuous.
Paragon says
@ Evan Marc Katz
” What are you, a lower mammal? A neanderthal who can’t override his biological impulse to spread his seed?
There are millions and millions of married faithful men who stay faithful because what they GAIN from their monogamy is GREATER than the thrill of random sex and infidelity.”
But, that’s what I mean when I specify ‘a risk averse male who will be satisfied not to risk your affections'(I just had a more dispassionate way of describing this).
I was not trying to conflate all three qualities that I recognized
as contributing factors.
Also, I don’t consider ‘risk-averse’ as a derogatory characterization.
” It’s a choice, bro. I’m the first to acknowledge that I’m always attracted to other women. But as a sexually aggressive guy who had many options when he was single, it wouldn’t occur to me that throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill would be a good idea.”
You won’t get any argument from me about this(again, I just have an alternate way of describing the factors that mediate these kinds of cognitive biases).
“Stop trying to speak for good men who knew when to retire from screwing around and sincerely want to grow old alone with a life partner. Evidently, you don’t know crap about us.”
I think you have misinterpreted what I have said, for which I must accept some blame.
Still, I’m not certain we have any real disagreement here.
Heather says
@ Ana,
I can relate. Which is why I love reading the dating blogs, because it makes me feel like now I have a good toolbox full of tools to handle dating and a relationship. I feel less like a victim and now know how to set good boundaries, not allow a guy to trample all over me, and to hold out for the decent guys, not just the ones looking for a quick shag and run.
It IS hard to trust after being burned, trust me I know. But I’m learning how to do it, bit by bit. It’s not easy and yes it is easy to jump to conclusions sometimes. But not every guy is an asshole or a cheater. Not every guy will break my heart. It’s sure taken alot of wasted evenings with twits, to meet my guy, but hey there we are. At least I’ve learned alot about myself along the way, had the opportunity to put what I have learned, into practice. I never stood up to men, til two years ago. I never said sorry but I won’t allow you to treat me like crap. Now I am empowered, strong, and able to handle a guy. Even nowadays, my current guy is rather snippy and cranky for whatever reason, and I used to get sick to my stomach, when a guy would do that. Now, I know it’s not about me, that is on them, and that it is more than OK to tell him, you are not allowed to talk to me like that.
Helen says
Evan, I think you and Paragon are actually seeing more eye-to-eye than you realize in these last two comments. Being a “risk averse male” is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good thing, as it shows the ability to reason and to decide what the best actions are in a given circumstance. You yourself demonstrate risk aversion in your next-to-last paragraph. You do, as you say earlier, override your biological impulse to spread your seed because you’re smart enough to realize that you achieve greater happiness and satisfaction by not “throwing my marriage away for a cheap thrill.”
The way I see it, a man can be good, sexually aggressive, and risk averse all at the same time. The last shows cleverness, which women always hold in high regard.
Mia says
I gotta agree with paragon here in some respects. A man who has fewer options is simply a wiser choice for marriage. Sorry, Evan, but sexually aggressive men with lots of options are not worth the risk for most women. SOME of you guys will be faithful, but it’s not a lottery that I’d ever want to play. Its obvious that you are a good guy and your wife is lucky to have you , but in general, who wants a guy that stuck his dick in 50 plus women and had a different girlfriend every month? Do I really want to wake up next to some alpha player for the rest of my life and have this guy raise my daughters? How do I trust such a man? I’d feel a lot better with a 6 who had some options but not too many options.
Ruby says
David T #77
Henriiette originally wrote (#15), “I don’t mind if my guy notices a pretty woman but what if it’s obvious to everyone in the room that he’s leering at her? What should my small-breasted, brunette friend do when her boyfriend announces, loudly, at a dinner out with friends that he loooooves big-boobed blondes the instant the waitress fitting that description saunters away from the table?”
To me, this didn’t sound like Henriette’s friend was okay with her boyfriend’s remarks. As you stated, if her friend was okay with it, and laughed it off, Henriette would probably shrugged off the behavior herself, and wouldn’t have posted about it here with the implication that it was problematic. Announcing something like this in front of friends is also an inconsiderate way to behave around those who might be made uncomfortable by that kind of talk, as Henriette was.
As far as sexually aggressive men go, some guys sow their wild oats when they’re younger, but curtail that behavior as they get older and decide to settle down, whether they are very good-looking or not.
Ruby says
Actually, we don’t know for sure if Henriette was present or not, but if she wasn’t and her friend told her about it, the friend probably wasn’t too happy.
Wendy says
To Paragon #74 (and everyone else who says people “choose” cheaters and players: I am not telling you, or anyone, that I choose the wrong men. I do not have ESP, they do not announce their predisposition to cheat, and they don’t behave the way one would typically expect a cheater to act. The man I used in my example was home every night. I had zero indication there was anything going on. Many of us are completely blind-sided when we find out there’s another woman. So by your logic I could say that if you get into an auto accident on your way to work one day, it was your fault because you “chose” that route. The insurance companies would love that!
David T says
@Ruby 82 Henriette knows the situation with her friend and we don’t, so we must trust her judgement there.
A generalization was implied and run with by the thread, leading to the conclusion that such behavior is always abusive. I was addressing that generalization, not the case of Henriette’s friend and her bf(*) in particular. I was not trying to say her friend was not hurt by her b/f remarks. My use of the direct quote made my attack on the generalization ambiguous.
(*) The man does not know how to behave in public IMO. I would be annoyed by hearing that (and would probably tell him so), even if I didn’t know him and was sitting across the room. Different people have different behavior standards. I manage to avoid being subjected to that kind of behavior by not hanging out with the kinds of people who (I imagine) frequent places like Hooters.
David T says
@Wendy
Does he sample a grape at the grocery store. . . and then if it is good try another one and another one and another one? Does he cheat on his taxes? Does he give people lame or no birthday gifts and then complain about what he gets? Was he compassionate? How ethical was he in his relationships with other people? Did he show them one face and then in confidence disclose to you or others how he really felt? Was he honest with them?
Some of that laundry list might seem like little things that have no bearing on a relationship but the fact is, if someone is dishonest in the little parts of their life, they might or might not be in the more important parts. If they are compassionate and honest and open when it comes to little things, I would be very surprised if they are different when it come to the big ones that would hurt other people.
Karl R says
A few thoughts on various themes in this thread:
Trust
In my first serious relationship, my girlfriend cheated on me. In doing so, she destroyed trust in that relationship. Unlike that girlfriend, I have never cheated. This has led to the following insights…
1. I am not an anomoly. There are others out there who don’t cheat.
2. If a woman suspected me of cheating, I would be highly offended by the unjustified attitude.
3. Since I would be offended by the suspicion, my girlfriends would be equally offended.
4. If I want to date a woman of integrity, I need to treat women with the trust that I expect in return.
5. By trusting my partners, I may end up being cheated on. While I won’t realize my partner is cheating, I will realize that something is wrong in the relationship.
And there’s one insight that came from looking into the subject…
Most people don’t cheat. However, most people don’t realize they’re capable of cheating until they do. Most cheating begins after the relationship is already in trouble. If you have a partner who has integrity, and you want to further reduce the potential for cheating, put effort into keeping the relationship strong.
Self Esteem
Based on my experience, Evan’s wife is demonstrating high self-esteem. I don’t care if my fiancée goes to La Bare and has a stripper grinding against her in a lap dance. She’s not going home with a stripper. If she was into strippers, she would have dated them.
When she has lunch with an ex-boyfriend, it’s no problem. The man is an ex for a reason.
My fiancée is with me because of who I am. If she wanted someone who was more like her exes, her coworkers or her other dance partners, she would have dated those people instead.
Ileana asked: (#53)
“Is it wise to ‘test’ your partner in such ways- Send him anonymous texts and see if he replies? Or is this just plain rude?”
I don’t know anyone who seeks out partners who are suspicious and paranoid. If a woman pulled this stunt with me, I’d dump her immediately.
I can’t prove to a paranoid person that I’m trustworthy. I can only prove that I haven’t provided evidence of wrongdoing.
George says
I’m curious, Evan, as to whether you draw a distinction between people who are “understanding and trusting” and people who just don’t care. What, in your words, would be the difference between the two? I ask because your attitude sounds like that of a teenager who thinks he’s got cool parents because they let him do drugs in the house.
Evan Marc Katz says
George, against my better judgment I’m going to respond to your pseudo-respectful but really insulting question.
You intimate that there’s no difference between “understanding and trusting” and people who just don’t care. I was going to suggest that perhaps you had a point – that trusting and not caring are the exact same thing. But that’s not true. It’s certainly easier to trust a charismatic, confident, flirtatious man if you literally don’t care whether he cheats on you. But that’s not really what we’re talking about here. This is about a) having inner confidence, b) believing that you’ve chosen a partner of integrity, and c) not overreacting to situations that don’t threaten to destabilize the relationship.
If you don’t have inner confidence, EVERYTHING your partner does will be perceived as a potential threat. I had a girlfriend like that and it was exhausting – apologizing for smiling at 17-year-old cashier or looking at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.
If you don’t believe you’ve chosen a partner of integrity, everything your partner does will be perceived as a potential threat – because it IS. A proven cheater, a shady guy, a secretive boyfriend – all will rightfully raise your eyebrows. Most women know when they’ve got a good man or a bad man on their hands. It’s not a foolproof science, but the reason that my wife was able to trust me when she found strange panties in our dryer is because she knew I wasn’t the kind of man to cheat. It’s not that she didn’t care. It’s that she trusted me.
Finally, if you don’t overreact to situations, you’re going to have a much healthier relationship than if you’re constantly accusing him, putting him on the defensive and walking on eggshells yourself because he wished his ex girlfriend a Happy Birthday on Facebook.
Your conclusion, George, seems to be that my “permissive” attitude is toxic – the equivalent of having parents let him do drugs in his house.
Well, since I have an incredible marriage that is based on trust, I find it hard to believe that my wife’s attitude is toxic to our relationship. So I challenge you – and any reader who disagrees with me – start treating your partner with LESS trust and let me know how it goes.
I’ll take my way any day.
Rosy says
Gosh, there seem to be quite a few posters who draw issue with the lap dance. I like what Evan says in the article here:
It’s not my place to say what’s right for you, but if you believe what I do — that both sexual contact and sexual intention can be considered cheating — then that becomes your tipping point.
And everyone has their own boundaries and tipping points. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a lap dance cheating, if it was very occasionally (at the likes of stag parties and that kind of malarkey) but if it was every weekend, I wouldn’t exactly be over the moon. So therefore I have a boyfriend who – among his many admirable (and to my mind, much more important, stuff like kindness and generosity!) qualities – doesn’t go to lap dancing bars every single weekend. It’s that simple.
If your own personal boundary is that you would consider it cheating if your boyfriend was on the receiving end of a lap dance, you just look for someone who wouldn’t receive a lap dance. Set your own boundaries; just be aware that the more restrictively you set them, the fewer people you’ll find who will fit your criteria. That’s not a dire warning, btw, it’s just the way it works.
(FWIW, my ex husband found the idea of strip clubs and lap dances appalling, and even refused to go in a lap dancing bar on a friend’s stag party. And yet he was a miserable chap who was often horribly mean to me. Morality is about more than lap dances, you know.)
Wendy says
@DavidT #86: Thanks for your insight; I always appreciate your perspective on these forums. To answer your question, no–this particular guy would buy the grapes without sampling, from a local farmers market to support the local economy and reduce the carbon footprint on the planet, and then give the cashier a healthy tip. His birthday gifts were those of legend. He stopped traffic to let a turtle cross the street. He drank Dos Equis. Get the picture? 🙂 I am actually pretty quick to run from guys who exhibit the types of behaviors you described. My theory is that life is too short to spend with the wrong guy, and I’m not getting any younger. I’m also pretty astute, according to my friends, at picking up on negative vibes. THIS is why I get so frustrated when people blame me for getting cheated on because I “chose” the wrong guy. It’s happened a few times, and every time it was a guy (a real winner); the type who would get the “upstanding citizen of the year” award, because I was never with dishonest, unethical, compassionless men (losers) long enough for them to cheat. Bottom line, losers can be completely faithful when they meet the right girl, and winners can cheat given the right opportunity so I refuse to blame myself for “choosing” the wrong men when I know I’ve been the best partner I could be, and he appeared to be the same, to me and to everyone else around me.
Karmic Equation says
@Rachael 17
I’m sorry to hear about your divorce and the lying that caused it.
Please don’t make the next man in your life pay for the sins of your ex.
There are different degrees of trust. And I believe that each person we meet should be give an “average” amount of trust. When you get to know them better, you can trust them more or less depending on your actual experience with them. For example, you should not give the keys to your house to a stranger…but you can trust that if you ask for directions from the same stranger they won’t direct you to a crack house on purpose.
Every new person you meet, man or woman, should be given the average amount of trust and respect. As you get to know them, then you can finesse the “amount” that you give them. And the amount is not static and could be subject-dependent. For example, you can always trust someone to be ontime, but you can’t trust this someone to keep a secret…So you have to know what to entrust that person with.
I’m sure you do this all the time with family…the same kind of “trust-on-a-continuum” should be applied to your significant other and they shouldn’t get all your trust simply because they are your significant other. Only trust them with what you know they can be trusted with and play the rest by ear, and adjust your level ot trust to what know they deserve.
Karmic Equation says
@Ana 70
It’s not a man’s responsibility to cure your insecurities or baby them. You have to deal with them yourself. Insecurities, as Helene said, comes from fear. Fear you’re not good enough; fear that you’re not pretty enough, etc. The reality is that Yeah, there are going to be women “better” than you (in something!) and there are going to be women prettier than you…new ones are born every day. If you don’t TRUST YOURSELF or LIKE YOURSELF enough to know that you bring to the table things these “better” and “prettier” women don’t, then, sad to say, it won’t matter if a man actually babies you and your insecurities. At the end of the day, your insecurities will STILL BE THERE. He just doesn’t give you reason to face them.
Secondly, if you’ve told your man that you don’t like it when he says/does certain things and HE CONTINUES to do them, then LEAVE. He’s telling you unequivocally that he doesn’t care how you feel and you’re not worth changing for…So why stay with him? You’re not going to change him with your nagging or tears, in fact, you’ll more quickly drive him away. YOU HAVE POWER, too! You have the power to leave the jerk and take your fabulous self and your brand of loving to someone who actually deserves it. Don’t forget that. Addition by subtraction — gain dating freedom by losing a loser.
Clare says
@ Evan # 91
I agree particularly with what you said “Most women know when they’ve got a good man or a bad man on their hands”. I do honestly believe that this is a sense that most women innately have, or can develop.
It is the most important thing in developing trust in a relationship. No, I may not know exactly what my boyfriend is doing at all times, and yes, I may have a couple of insecurities of my own, but I know that pigs will sooner fly before he cheats on me.
I *know* this, and hence I just breathe, and trust him.
Selena says
@Wendy
I find myself nodding my head while reading your posts. As someone who’s been cheated on by more than one partner, I could conceivably say I have a bad picker. Thing is…they didn’t cheat until 3 or 4 years into the relationship. So I had several years with each where I thought I HAD picked someone who had integrity, valued monogamy. And had I not found out about the cheating…I would have gone on believing that.
@Karl #87
Good post. I’ve also come to believe that where there is infidelity, there are almost always other problems in the relationship as well. Infidelity is sooo painful and dramatic, that it tends to overshadow those other problems – especially in the mind of the wronged party. And while I don’t think there are any surefire ways to “cheat-proof” a relationship, consciously trying to make it the place you both want to be and paying attention to what is going on with your partner emotionally, just may avoid the slippery slope. If something feels off, TALK about it.
@Hope #73 – Thanks for sharing this quote:
As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
“The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”
Really folks, it’s the only way.
The alternative: being suspicious, jealous, controlling, paranoid, snoopy – it just eats you up inside. And will not only destroy your relationship, but your self-esteem as well.
Cat says
So many good points. I say the only way to learn to trust someone is to watch & allow them to rebuild trust with you (if it’s been broken which is my case). If they have never breached your trust in the first place then you still watch/allow them to build trust with you. I don’t think strip joints or watching porn or looking at other women are trust breakers, but hiding all those things or lying about them is a trust breaker. Speaking from experience it wasn’t the particular action that broke my trust, but trying to conceal or deny them were. And now we are rebuilding trust again. Just don’t date jerks or fall in love with jerks…it’s too much work!
Nicole says
Yeah, seriously. People think they can someone mitigate the risk to their feelings by playing super snoop. There are people who really believe they are protecting their relationships by checking phones, reading emails, reading FB, etc. But you can’t. And you waste a lot of time and energy being insecure and paranoid if you choose to live that way. I don’t see how those people have time to give anything positive to the relationships that they are so paranoid about “protecting.”
You can’t keep yourself from falling down sometimes. And it might happen more than once. No one has a crystal ball. We all have to play the game, keep our eyes open, and yes, take some lumps. There is no way around it. But I really think that everyone, man or woman, will eventually show you who they are if you let them. And the best way to find out if you have a winner or a loser is to take a chance and trust them.
George says
@Evan 91
I didn’t say that trusting and not caring are the same thing, I’m trying to say there is a difference between parents who would let their kid have a small glass of wine with dinner, and parents who let them do drugs in the house. At some point, if anything goes, it’s because it’s just not important to you.
Evan Marc Katz says
George – I still don’t see your point. Who here said “anything goes”?
Paragon says
@ Wendy
” To Paragon #74 (and everyone else who says people “choose” cheaters and players: I am not telling you, or anyone, that I choose the wrong men. I do not have ESP, they do not announce their predisposition to cheat, and they don’t behave the way one would typically expect a cheater to act. The man I used in my example was home every night. I had zero indication there was anything going on. ”
” To answer your question, no—this particular guy would buy the grapes without sampling, from a local farmers market to support the local economy and reduce the carbon footprint on the planet, and then give the cashier a healthy tip. His birthday gifts were those of legend. “
Obviously, these are not reliable indications of fidelity.
“I’m also pretty astute, according to my friends, at picking up on negative vibes. THIS is why I get so frustrated when people blame me for getting cheated on because I “chose” the wrong guy. It’s happened a few times, and every time it was a guy (a real winner); the type who would get the “upstanding citizen of the year” award”
Perhaps you should be looking for less obvious patterns, to relate your experiences with cheating men.
Were they ‘unhappy’ with you, or just looking for something different(or better)?
Perhaps these men were merely overconfident and opportunistic – willing to risk what they had for a new infatuation.
I think sometimes, too much of a conventionally good thing(ie. confidence) can pose high-risks for any relationship.
Ideally, we all want to be partnered with someone who has sufficient apprehension to resist temptation, and constrain their most selfish impulses(even in cases where we would be none the wiser).
@ Selena
“ Thanks for sharing this quote:
As Ernest Hemingway wrote:
“The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.”
Really folks, it’s the only way.
The alternative: being suspicious, jealous, controlling, paranoid, snoopy – it just eats you up inside. And will not only destroy your relationship, but your self-esteem as well.”
Personally, if I am sincerely motivated in nuturing a relationship with someone, then I’m willing to accept some degree of suspicion and uncertainty during the formative stages – before trust can be reasonably justified.
Everyone has baggage, and I am not prepared to fault someone for what I see as trivial preconceptions that can be amended over time – I think any woman worth being in a relationship with, is worth that kind of consideration.
George says
“Anything goes” seems to be the direction this is heading. Let’s take the panty story, and lets say it happened again. It happens multiple times. Or let’s say it’s a used condom that you swear up and down was left by your male friend who brought his girlfriend over. Now she is okay with all of it, because she is wonderful and understanding. Does that sound right to you?
Evan Marc Katz says
This will be my last response to you, George, but in case you can’t see the difference: my wife is cool, patient and understanding. She’s not a moron.
George says
Take you and your wife out of this for a minute, Evan, and just look at this in the abstract. I’m just not buying the notion that “Sure honey, you can spend the night at the house of that girl who always flirts with you, since you’re just friends” means she is caring and understanding.
Evan Marc Katz says
George, I don’t know how stupid you think people are – or how loose you think my morals are – but there’s a huge difference between talking to a stranger at a party and spending a night with that same stranger. One is normal. The other is infidelity. Anyone who can’t figure out which is which will have major relationship problems. Sorry, I’m not continuing this absurd slippery slope you’ve set up.
George says
I didn’t set up the slippery slope, Evan, you did, by saying she is supposed to be patient and understanding when she finds… well, pick your piece of evidence. I just don’t see that as a virtue. If she really cares, she SHOULD freak out if she thinks I might be cheating on her…
Evan Marc Katz says
a) George, you’re clearly not a man, but a woman who came here to pick a fight. Well done.
Whatever you’re advocating makes zero sense. If a man’s done nothing wrong, there’s no reason to freak out. If he has done something wrong, she should leave. But she should certainly have her facts straight before she does anything. My wife knows that I’m not cheating on her when I talk to other women or admire other women. And thus we have a good marriage. If she reacted to my bachelor party (where I didn’t cheat), to my many Facebook friends (where I didn’t cheat), to my occasional online porn use (where I didn’t cheat), we’d have a really bad marriage. If she wants a man who doesn’t do any of these things, she shouldn’t have married ME.
And so…
b) Feel free to choose a partner who freaks out at you instead of trusting you. As it stands, I’m pretty happy with my choice (as is my wife) and will continue to strongly recommend that ALL men and women choose trusting and low-drama partners.
This ridiculous non-conversation is over. Best of luck to you and your fantasy boyfriend who never talks to other women and really digs the fact that you freak out because you CARE so much.
(George, I deleted your last comment after showing it to my incredulous wife. The huge leaps that you’re taking between my wife being cool with my behavior and people doing drugs, being openly cheated on and your son getting kidnapped…well, let’s just say that we’re gonna have to agree to disagree.)
GL says
Sounds to me he gets off on negative attention like that and into game playing. “Oh maybe my girlfriend will really care about me if I spend the night at this chick’s house I want to sleep with so she’ll freak out.” LOL! Healthy.
David T says
@Selena 95
make [your relationship] the place you both want to be and paying attention to what is going on with your partner emotionally, just may avoid the slippery slope. If something feels off, TALK about it.
Rockin’ . I completely, completely agree. Talk before you jump to conclusions if you can, and if you can’t turn off that machinery (which is a challenge) at least talk before you make a decision to change something.
George says
Actually, I think you’re being extremely small (bet you’ve heard that before), deleting other people’s postings when you loose the argument. I think I made my point, and I think you understand perfectly clear what that point is, hence your unwillingness to go further on this.
Evan Marc Katz says
George, I let your last comment through because it was a perfect ending. You insulted me, you misspelled “lose”, you said you made your point and that I understand it, and you intimated that I was afraid to go forward because of the strength of your argument. I’ll let readers decide for themselves if your arguments make any sense. Goodbye and good luck.
Selena says
Bored with George.
David T says
@George
You are over generalizing/over extending one story and example to apply to absolutely everything. That seems to be a common problem on this blog; the over extension of a point into hyperbole land concluding that if the over extension doesn’t make sense NONE of it does.
It is like a metaphorical black hole. Once you start to extend something past where it makes sense (like what happens to Newtons laws of motion once you cross the event horizon of a real black hole), you ultimately end up at a logical singularity where you can draw pretty much ANY conclusion and the legitimate point Evan is trying to make no longer makes any sense at all.
Stay outta that region. You will only hurt yourself. OK, that made about as much sense to folks with a non astronomy background as some of the posts of another frequent poster, but to get some inkling read paragraphs 2 and 4 of the link on my name.)
Very much like a black hole, these over generalized conversations quickly lose any ability to communicate useful information. (If you want to continue to use my metaphor, read the last section of that link.)
Hmm…I seem to have overextended my metaphor to a point where it no longer makes sense and has become useless. Now where have I seen that before? 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Singularity
Cat says
@ Evan #91….you were so exactly right on the money with your comments there. When reading it I felt like I was reading about myself. Yep, if you don’t have inner confidence & you’re not sure you picked a partner of integrity then everything they do seems like a potential threat. After years of trying to rebuild trust, I think we have come a long way, but it’s not been easy or fun at times. I think now I have finally built back some inner confidence in myself as well as with him. I do trust him on certain levels but I think there are different “layers” of trust? Any thoughts? Do you think there are “layers” of trust or is it you do or you don’t?
Heather says
@ Evan,
You just hit home with me on something when you were responding to George, in regards to “making sure you have your facts straight.” That’s exactly it. I try to do that in relationships, and probably did TOO much of it in my last one, where my ex was constantly hanging out with HIS ex. A few of my friends asked me straight up if I thought he was cheating. I really didn’t have concrete proof, so I never accused him of it. Did I have some funny gut feelings that there was more going on than I was being told? Oh surely. But since I could not clearly back it up, I held my peace and watched for other signs of problems, and boy oh boy did those signs pop up.
I do admit that I have a bit of a suspicious personality, which I am working hard on, and it is getting better. And because I know I am a bit suspicious due to men in my past pulling some pretty big stunts, I have to remind myself, “Heather, you already know you’re sensitive in that area. Put on the brakes, look at the FACTS. If the facts truly do add up to: he’s cheating or lying, OK fine, as long as you have those facts straight, move forward with dumping his ass and go on. But if you’re just having a gut feeling, try to hold off on just blasting him with both barrels, until you are SURE something is wrong.”
I’ve learned that truth will always prevail, and if a guy is pulling something, I will find out about it sooner or later, I don’t need to be a snoop.
Wendy says
@Heather #113: I think I’m a lot like you, so your post hit home. I’ve been cheated on (as we probably all have at some point), and I don’t always have the healthiest self-esteem (although I’m much better than I used to be) so I sometimes find myself knee-jerking when my gut gets that little feeling. But I’ve learned to wait until actual EVIDENCE shows up. Most of the time (now, in my more recent realtionships) it doesn’t. I’ve come to realize that if a guy is doing something behind my back, he gets lazier as he comes to care more about “her” than about me, and the evidence becomes easy to find (no snooping required). I hate that I have to wait, but I think it’s better than risking a good relationship if there’s nothing going on.
@KarlR #87: I LOVE your point about a person who cheats ruining that relationship. We’ve heard it before: “Don’t let a bad past relationship (or person) ruin a new one,” but somehow the way you put it makes much more sense. Bob ruined my relationship with Bob, and Jim ruined my relationship with Jim. Plain and simple. Thanks.
Amber says
@Evan – I really love this article and it’s very helpful and empowering to me. Thank you! I’m wondering what you suggest (and others are welcome to comment on this as well) if I trust my guy, but not this new girl he is friends with. He met her through work and he really respects her and they have a lot in common, and so now they are friends. He has not done anything inappropriate, and he has gone out of his way to introduce me to her and wants me to be friends with her too (good sign), but for some reason I have a terrible gut feeling about her (that she wants my man and that she is trouble). She is single and attractive, which is extremely troubling to me. I have told him my feelings on this. He reminds me that she’s been nothing but nice to me (which is not even totally true, she does subtle things like if the three of us are talking she will only make eye contact with my boyfriend and not with me at all), and he doesn’t understand why I feel this way. Is it women’s intuition (and if that is the case what can I do besides share my concerns with him)?
Karmic Equation says
Amber, just be honest. You trust HIM but you don’t trust HER. Add to that “And I don’t blame her in the least. You are a great guy. Why wouldn’t she want to steal you away from me.”
And then admit, “But I’m afraid she’ll succeed. I think she’s prettier than I am and due to the fact that you work together, she gets to spend more time with you than I do. I’m not comfortable with the way she ignores me and has eyes only for you when she hangs with us. You may not notice but believe me, as a woman, I notice this kind of stuff. I love you and trust that you won’t cheat on me. But I don’t trust that she won’t try something to test you. How about we make a deal? If, or more likely, when, she makes a pass at you, you promise me you’ll end the friendship on the spot and never speak to her again, and you come tell me about it. If she never hits on you then obviously, I was wrong about her intentions where you’re concerned and I’ll try to warm up to her, ok?”
Honest, vulnerable, and establishes boundaries and expectations without blame. He can’t get angry with that. If he does, well, you need to rethink him as your partner.
Sam says
Evan,
I have a similar history to your wife’s where I have been cheated on several times. “I am not going to let it define me, and I am not going to punish my current boyfriend for what a past boyfriend(s) did to me.” This is the motto I (TRY TO) live by. I realize that it’s not fair to punish someone for someone else’s actions. However, I am finding that I struggle at times in doing this.
What suggestions do you have on how to actively work on this while you’re IN a relationship? I am with a great guy who is great BECAUSE he calls me out on things when I am out of line (might sound crazy but I LOVE this). He treats me great but I definitely have insecurities that stem from my past. I have my moments where I let these insecurities creep in.
When I found your blog it COMPLETELY changed the way i looked at my relationship in an AMAZING way. It felt like I “got” it for the first time.
My question is: Can I repair any damage it might have caused (before reading your blog? unfortunately I saw it a little too late.. if the answer is yes..how so? Is there anything else I can do besides actively working on controlling/suppressing these tendencies?
Thanks for writing! Reading your blogs REALLY help me check myself into place too! 🙂
mirliss says
I use to believe the same thing and allowed my husband to go to night clubs n strip clubs with his friends n he took advantage. I don’t believe he cheated, but he was going every weekend and soon rarely took me out and when he did, he would leave me alone the whole night and was with his friends. I became resentful and began to point these things out and started asking him to stop, but he refused and started saying that i was one of those controlling women that wanted to control him and that was why he wouldn’t stop. He has since cut back on the partying, but still wants to occasionally club out or go to bars with guy friends, but I am still resentful and i don’t want to go down that road again. I am ok with him going ouf with his friends and playing his sports as long as he comes home before morning when he goes out. I have good reasons to feel how i feel, but it’s a long story and your advise would probably be to leave him if you knew how he came to treat me (no abuse just selflessness), but that is not something I want to do unless I find that he is cheating or has, but i really don’t think so.
GL says
I think I made every mistake in the book recently and became every man’s nightmare. I think when you’re unhappy or something’s “off,” in your life, you react insecurely and have trust issues. The wisdom I gained from acting psychotic is that it is much healthier to go into a situation with an open heart, and live without fear. It’s FEAR of some sort that drives us to control people, from whatever insecurities that we possess. You can’t control people, and if you get hurt…well that’s the risk. There are no guarantees in love.
GL says
I am starting to flip out about the fact I didn’t hear from Dude after a couple texts. He told me during a 2-3 week trip he probably wouldn’t get back to me right away. It’s only been one day since we interacted. I had to re-read this blog. I think I will have to re-read this blog many times to remind myself just to TRUST. For god’s sake he surprised me by volunteering not to sleep with anyone else. He told me he just wanted to feel like he had his freedom. That made me sad because before I had major life problems, I wasn’t a controlling girlfriend. I never flip out when my friends don’t get back to me right away. Jeez. So why not treat him like that? There’s this thing I read…I think an excerpt from Men are from Mars, Women from Venus…imagine you are a rock and there is a rubber band between you and your man. Eventually he will snap back.
starthrower68 says
I can understand where you are coming from. I tend to be anti-clingy though, as I see it as weakness in myself, which I don’t have an easy time acknowledging. I would be the type to say that if being involved with me makes you that fearful of loosing you freedom then here, here’s your freedom, I am removing myself from the equation. I know that’s a self-defeating behavior too. I guess the only way you’ll find love is to hang in there and risk the rejection, i.e. there’s no way out but through. I don’t mean wait around in a dead end relationship forever, but a reasonable amount of time. I’m still very skittish though.
GL says
@starthrower68 I agree with you about waiting around for a reasonable amount of time, but not forever. This is a returned ex who left on a trip for work for 3 weeks. I definitely was not a “cool girl,” I can completely understand why he said that to me. He wants to live his life and not feel like he has to “answer.” I put him in that position many times when things were nutty between us. So he can have his freedom (I mean that in a nice way). I hope this rubber band theory is true. LOL! I want to be that kind of girl for him that will make him want to talk to me all the time, we were there for a while, I just lost my shit over a sticky situation he was in, I was mean and demanding. This situation made me realize that there are holes in my life that I needed to fill, and I took action to change some things. I am pretty lucky he’s around right now, it’s really a 2nd chance.
kim says
Its part of the parcel of dating good looking men. They will have opportunities, they will get womens attention, they will be flirted with, etc. They will keep you on your toes and will challenge you which is why you will respect them more and have a differnt level of sexual and romantic attraction to them.
You wont have to worry about this when youre dating average looking men.
Me says
Totally agree with the trust thing. I approach whatever my husband does from the perspective that I assume he makes his choices from a place of loving intention. This is because he has proven his trustworthiness to me many times, it was not just given blindly. He earned it really, like I have with him. Sure he may cross a boundary in the future sometime but until it is known for sure I can only assume he lives by his morals and words.
Very confused though about the lap dance scenario…on one hand Evan is praising his wife for being accepting and supportive of his lap dance and then he condemns phone sex as crossing the line! Ummm, my friend danced years ago at an exclusive strip club and a lap dance is not a non-contact sexual experience whereas phone sex is non-contact. Many wives / girlfriends are ignorant of the lap dance – it is a LAP dance up close and personal. Many wives will be ‘accommodating’ when really it’s codependent behaviour to allow a lot of things to keep the relationship.
Also, I’m not so sure about the self description of “alpha’. Evan does not present as alpha at all, more a beta that knows a lot about dating and they make pretty good husbands.
I think it’s up to each couple to work out what their line is and what the consequences for crossing them are, then no one gets a nasty surprise. In the meanwhile we just assume loving intent.
Me says
Wanted to add that I’m talking about EARNED trust. Although I agree with trusting a partner and largely accepting them as they are I think it really also depends on why a woman extends trust. Sometimes women have been cheated on or burned somehow and figure out the way to secure a partner is to give them whatever they value most. If the new partner highly values a lot of freedom (and he praises her for her uniqueness if she accommodates that) she will strategically become the biggest freedom extender to meet this criteria and become the most valuable in his sight. I think this article unintentionally advises this and while it may work a woman needs to know she is personally comfortable with this level of compromise to secure the relationship since this pattern will set the tone for the life of the relationship.
Although I largely trust my husband’s intention to be loving I would be foolish to think he would never weaken with temptation and act selfishly. However, he values our relationship so much that he doesn’t test his ability to withstand temptation by putting himself in certain situations- this is largely why I trust him, he demonstrates his commitment in this way, he doesn’t abuse his liberties and I have the upmost respect for him for that.
I personally would not be comfortable with the level described in the article and thankfully have not had past negative relationship experiences which may lead me to extend this level to secure a relationship but can totally understand how it could happen. I believe it is healthy for both sides to be accepting and both sides to have limits recognizing it is a balance of his needs / her needs that create security. There is nothing wrong with women having limits, I’ve got limits and my husband respects me more for having them since he loves that I respect myself and that is what he said stood out about me. Earned trust and (based on previous behaviour) assuming loving intent (rather than blind acceptance) is great.
Ladies, remember you don’t want to be so open minded that your brain falls out.
Evan Marc Katz says
You got it backwards. Trust isn’t earned. It’s assumed until it’s lost. It’s being innocent until proven guilty, rather than guilty until proven innocent.
Me says
I don’t believe I have it backwards, as there’s not one right forwards way I just see it a little differently. It’s my opinion that many women first start to trust by observing the guy and how he lives within his own skin, not assuming guilty just observing. Does he appear honest in his life, with his friends, turn up when he says he will, call when he says, respect you in the presence of other women? No one just gives a guy the keys to her house on the first date assuming he’s innocent until proven guilty!
In my experience it’s little by little she will see his character emerge and the trust is built on that and then extended more openly as you describe (‘it’s assumed until lost’) assuming loving intent as I wrote in my first comment.
I have never been cheated on (to my awareness) in my relationships, have been asked for marriage a couple of times when younger and have been happily married for over 20 years so I’m not completely ignorant around this or a controlling dragon. I just see it a little differently to the article and wanted to share that so women can come to their own conclusions around differing views, especially if early on in the relationship, possibly older and previously burned as they may drop expectations in the relationship to secure it and maybe later in life regret the tone they co created.
I think women have to work with what they are comfortable in and be authentic to themselves and others rather than using accommodating strategies that may not be natural to them in order to gain her partner’s approval and commitment. Your relationship was used as the example of trust and it’s only natural there’s going to be many differing opinions around this as there are other successful relationships which blossom with differing dynamics as there is no one right way.
Similar outcome (ultimately trusting), we just see the details of the process a little differently is all and I put a lot of value on women’s self respect which I think she can lose if she’s too open. I’m just saying there are other ways around approaching trust and working out what a woman wants before using another couple’s relationship as a template. You even said it took you a long time to find someone as accommodating as your wife and it seems you help her feel secure in the relationship by praising this attribute as what made her stand out. So it’s understandable that for her to feel secure around other women, suspicious scenarios etc that the more she accepts the more praise and security she gets because she knows you haven’t found other women who you could have a relationship with and be so free. This strategy may work for you guys but I’ve seen many men gradually lose respect for their wife over time as she sets the standard through her self respect. This is why I responded to the post, because I just hope that women will think through the dynamic from where the article comes from and whether it’s what they really want and think about many options from other happy couples’ experiences also.
SuSu says
Sounds like an open marriage…those can work too.
Linda says
I completely agree with what Evan has to say, but unfortunately for me my ex went over the line just too many times. Did I trust him not to cheat?Absolutely, but his behavior in public was inappropriate. He would stare at other females constantly, some as young as 12 or make inappropriate comments to the dismay of the girls parents. He would also hang out in bars to ogle the waitstaff. I would point out many times how embarrassed I was to be in public with him. Well, he felt entitled, as a man to behave in this manner and I found it to be obsessive. My feeling were never taken into account. I’ve been alone for nearly two years and am loving my new found freedom. ..I’ve never been happier. I’ve recently started dating again and will never settle for less than I deserve. I’d rather be alone. Lesson learned.
Daris says
I’m facing a huge problem in my relationship lately.. At the beginning when I met my now fiancée he
Didn’t want me to go anywhere by myself and picked on my online male friends on fb that I added way before living together..
Either hang out or spend more time with friends or family at home. Now the guy wants freedom to go out by himself to have drinks in bars… In my country where he doesn’t speak the language or have friends and women are kind of hot and very friendly with white foreign guys.. I disagreed off course…
Well he started befriending young girls on linked in and fb from my city.. Claiming that he is bored and feels like talking to other people .., but why only hot girls? And ..,On my back asking them for their Whatssap. At least 70…,When I
Confronted him about this he said that why should I worry if I have him in a jail practically he can’t do anything. And that I broke his trust and privacy by checking on his stuff.,,But it’s hard for me to trust him. When from the beginning of our relationship until
Now he makes jokefull comments about hot women appearance …he stares at their asses, hot bodies …turn his head to look at them every time we go out. I feel that if this happens in front of me … What would be like if I’m not around?
I always been a little insecure and jealous type but really.. He says is all
In my mind.. He is a good guy in other aspects and he says he loves me.. But I don’t feel that this would work. He knows what I can and can’t tolerate but he regards my feelings most times by fighting me back instead apologising when he does things that hurt me.. And he expects me to think that he is loyal and would ever betray me.
Karmic Equation says
Dump him. If you can’t trust him, whether there is a basis in fact or not, dump him.
I think you would be right to dump him. So why do you stay when you’re so unhappy? You think you can’t find anyone better or anyone at all?
Don’t NOT dump a guy because you’re afraid of being alone. Being sad alone is better than being sad in a relationship. At least if you’re alone, you have a chance to find someone better. If you’re sad in a relationship, your only options are to put up with it or to cheat. Neither are good options.
Dump him, Daris. Find a better guy.
Pea lady says
Evan,
I really like this article. I’m trying to be more like your wife. I was in an awful relationship a long time ago; partly my fault, partly his (completely different attachment types). This relationship shattered my confidence and introduced self doubt in to my life (I’ve always been pretty sensitive).
Anyways, enough of the past. Now I’ve worked SO hard to get where I am. I still slip up sometimes and jealousy/doubt creeps in, but overall I’m much better (note, I decided to change for me, not him. I was so tired of worrying).
There are still times that I get worried, normally when I’m triggered by an action or behaviour, which I don’t agree with (my views on behaviours were pretty inflexible, but now much more understanding). I can snap myself out of it though.
You might say, hey! Is this man actually worth it? Well, yes he is. It’s not his fault I was cheated on multiple times by one man in the past, who seemed pleased when I finally ended it.
Anyhoo, I hope to be as secure as your wife one day.
thanks for the article/blog
🙂
oho says
Evan!
I’m little surprised that you still ‘old fashioned’ in some ways… 😉
I have heard about even more ‘liberated’ couples, where men actually sleeping with other women…but still claim to their wiwes they love them wholeheartedly!! And they believe it, no probs!
Each to their own I guess, and can you point out they are cheap liars or taking advantage of loving partners…? Sure, not
Marizahn van Vuuren says
Wow. I am in somewhat a similar situation and no article has phrased it better for me than this one. As soon as I read it, it felt like a wait has been lifted from my shoulders. I should really just let go. And not worry about stupid BS. if it happens, it happens. And this article has helped. Thanks so much!
azgirl says
When I was about 22 I dated a very attractive, funny, witty and successful man. He was also a great dancer. When we would go out, women were always asking him to dance and I would get so jealous. After a tirade of mine, he just looked at me and said, I know these women, they are my friends, I’m with you and I’m taking YOU home. This jealousy of yours is very unattractive and completely unnecessary. From that point on I CHOSE not to be jealous. I didn’t really have anything to be jealous about anyway, and it was my insecurity that was the issue. That life lesson, that I am so grateful I got very early on has served me well. Worrying if someone is going to cheat gets you absolutely no where. I’ve adopted if someone can take him away from me then he wasn’t as into me as I thought. My husband of 16 years I trusted without question. Even the 7 years we lived in two states, him being a university professor surrounded by young attractive women not to mention living in Las Vegas. When he became unhappy in our relationship, he did cheat and I never saw it coming because I trusted him completely. The signs were actually there, I just didn’t believe them because of that trust. I wouldn’t change a thing about my belief system and trusting men. That relationship ended 5 years ago and I suppose I could be the victim and not ever trust again, however I don’t see that in me at all. I don’t expect or look for the worst in my dates because of it. How he chose to be says more about him than me. It’s not a great way to live, being negative or looking for the worst in someone so I CHOOSE not to. I’m much happier because of it.
Lee knight says
As someone who has worked in the sex industry, I can say that some men are like Evan and are there for fun, and some men are there to see what they can get. Women have to understand this is a business for us, we are there to make money, not steal your boyfriend or husband. In fact, WE DONT WANT YOUR BOYFRIENDS OR HUSBANDS! I have seen the best side and the worst side of men, and every man in that strip club is in there for a differnt reason, know that. Evan being in there for his Bachelor party, totally acceptable. The man in there by himself every night giving half or more of his paycheck and who’s looking for a date or sex when he has a family at home, NOT ACCEPTABLE! It just depends on the man. Most women know when they have a lousy man.. Because if you have one chances are your very unhappy all the time. No one needs to tell you that your needs are not getting met, your well aware of it. Chances are if he’s spending that much time in the strip club,you already have your answers lady. Nothing wrong with porn either( in fact it’s great to watch sometimes for both partners), as long as you and your man are still regularly having a good healthy sex life. One again, we are not talking about the guy viewing porno all day and preferring it to sleeping with you… Big difference. I think what Evan is saying is that if you have a good guy, who wants to commit, wants to make you happy and is a pretty good boyfriend or husband, cut him some slack! He’s not going to to leave you for a stripper or cheat on you. The key here is that he’s a good guy ( like Evan) and is meeting your needs. I doubt Evans wife would be as trusting as she is if he gave her things to worry about and wasn’t trust worthy and was unfaithful before. You only do these things for a man who has proven to be a good trustworthy partner, not some loser who has already cheated, and dis regards your feelings and isn’t meeting your needs. It’s quite simple actually.
L says
I trusted my husband of 20 years so much that I wasnt even threatened by the fact that he was multilingual. Long story short, he had a hidden woman and a baby….so much for blind trust
Marie says
I have trust issues and im really jealous. I don’t see why a man has to go to a strip club if hes happy with his wife and what about the women getting to do things like men. If a man is truly happy he will have no need to go to a strip club, and yes it promotes sexuality which can lead to wondering minds. I’ve seen many women trusts their husbands/boyfriends and they still cheat. There needs to be boundaries. Of course a man will be happy if his wife allows this kind of behavior, hes he’s getting the best of both worlds!
Anna says
I am 45, and in a happy, committed relationship (we are living together) with a 51 y old fantastic man, and I love him so much. He loves me too, he worships me and I know I am very important in his life. I can say one of the forces that lead me to this current relationship, was reading your books and blog, Evan. I still do read you, because you’re such a lesson, in may ways.
My man is a very handsome and intelligent guy, charismatic, and somewhat flirtatious (not in a way that would ashame me). He likes women and will watch a beautiful lady, which I does not make me feel threatened, neither would porn. I think I can be quite cool, in this sense.
Well, the problem is that I suffer from insecurity (for several reasons from the past), and this makes me fear he will, someday, fall in love with another woman. The fact is that, fifteen years ago, when he was married, he DID fall in love with another woman… With whom he cheated his wife, and finally divorced.
So, now and again, I DO feel menaced by some woman that enters into our lives – a friend, work companion, pupil… (he works as a college professor).
Sometimes, fear makes me feel anxious; I don’t express this anxiety to him, as it is something I don’t feel proud of.
Last night, he told me that he was going on a business trip (8 hours drive, one hotel night) with a 28 yr old woman that collaborates with him in a project. I know he thinks she is pretty. Wow! I can’t take it out of my mind. I wish I was as cool and calm as your wife…
I told my man (for the first time) that I didn’t feel very happy with this trip. I confessed to him that I feared this intimacy. He laughed, calmed me, told me that he loves me, that he does not wish to fall in love with anything else…
I wish I could blow my negative thoughts and worries away!
kim says
just be happy with yourself. you dont need a man to live. They are all the same. :))
Trina says
I started out a young woman who had jealousy issues for a few years until I realized that I could have the upper hand in this area and I should use it. Women can attract men much more than most men can attract a woman. I learned how to eliminate all jealousy and if the guy showed interest in a woman, I felt no jealousy and even urged him to go after her but also he learned quickly that I would bring in another man and that he better accept it or he was dumped! I married at 26 and my husband knew full well that any funny stuff with other women meant that he should be prepared for the same. Sure enough, he went too far so I evened the score with a young man who had been showing much interest in me for some time. One thing I never realized is that I could fall for this younger man and it happened. Exit first husband and enter much younger husband. Today we have a wonderful marriage and a full sex life. Me at 57 and him at 33. Been married 9 years and and he tells me regularly that I am the most beautiful woman he has ever knowen. He knows exactly about my past and I have been truthful when he asks about the many men I have had before him. Sex with him is like being 17 again !! If it ever gets where I cant give him what he needs then I will give him the freedom to bring in another woman, and I will welcome her.
Veronica says
You know, some of these are just confusing/bothersome. I’ve been with my partner for 6 years. There has never been any physical proof of unacceptable behavior. However, he is so private! Specifically when it comes to being on his phone, which is uncomfortably frequent (I’m the exact opposite). He could be doing all the things he said he doesn’t/wouldn’t do and I would have no idea. I would be the fool thinking everything is good and we have this solid relationship, but really, the whole time my trust in him was just a joke. And trusting my gut is not an option (its not always right).
So how do you fully trust a man (that has a history of being unfaithful/unacceptable behavior in past relationships and is very private) when you have trust issues already?
Time and time again he’s reassured me that I’ve got nothing to worry about, but, his weird, private ways, don’t make me feel like thats the case. By the way, I’ve discussed this with him! “I don’t like when people read over my shoulder” “I click off my phone because I was done doing what I was doing, NOT because you walked in the room” (for the 10th time!) “just because I’m on my phone doesn’t mean I’m doing something bad” “if you don’t trust me, what are you doing in this relationship?” Because I trust you enough that I know you wouldn’t go out and sleep with another woman behind my back…but I don’t think you’re actually being 100% honest, when you, oh so strongly, say you are. Never gets anywhere or gets “resolved.”
Mrs Happy says
Veronica @ 124,
my advice would be to hire a private investigator. I say this because you intimated your man has a history of being unfaithful, + that, together with his unusual behaviour, raises suspicion. Asking your partner if they’re having an affair doesn’t work, it’s a wasted question. If they are deceptive enough to cheat, they are selfish and deceptive enough to lie about it, until it suits them to be open (often never).
Nathan says
Hey Evan, I enjoy your article here and it helped me confirm in what I’m looking for in a woman. I don’t necessarily agree with the lap dance part but most of points you’ve said I agree with.
I’ve recently gotten out of a 2 year long long distant relationship and now in the phase where I’m working on my self esteem and ego, as well as my personal wants and needs. I myself have some particular boundaries as everyone does in a relationship. But I nevertheless, I value freedom and open mindedness in a relationship. There’s a fine line between fantasy + attraction, and action.
Looking into my last relationship, It wouldn’t sit well for my last girlfriend if I go out during the weekends doing something with my female friends, shopping or anything for that matter. We work on skyping each other as much as we can so we sacrificed going out most of the time and resorted our lives in front of a computer. (We do see each other a couple times a year and do some missed activities)
I think what got me in this article is your quote “Acceptance is the most powerful tool in making a man feel loyal to you.” I have told many things to my last girlfriend about myself, and usually I don’t get a positive reaction or I get criticized about my character and choices in life. Of course, this slowly lost my attraction towards her and made me refrain behaving like myself around her. Ironically, she does complain how I’m not behaving like myself than I use to be.
What really got me about her was how she brings up her ex into the mixture. Aren’t you suppose to move on from your ex before you get into another relationship? The way she brought up her ex was like she’s pressuring me from behaving like her ex, and of course that made me refrain from acting like myself around her as well. There were also some parts in my last relationship where were over the line on her side. I would bring up my feelings of uncomfort, but the usual reaction is that I’m being “disrespectful” and such.
Later on, the relationship became more of a chore and something I wasn’t looking forward, but I still contact her either way cause I still care very deeply of her in a way. But I finally realized that she was being very manipulative and controlling. To the point where it’s tearing me inside out. So I did the hardest and heart wrenching choice and ended it and left.
Still moving on, but it was refreshing to feel the freedom I have once again.
So my advice to all the women (or men) out there. Please accept the values and nature of your significant other and appreciate why they are the person they are presently. And give your significant other some damn slack. A little freedom doesn’t hurt, in fact it’s essential. If for some odd reason you have a problem with your special someone going out with his female friends or going to a party (even if it’s tamed), then you really should consider yourself being in a relationship. Or if anything like what many people said on this comment thread, “go with him and experience”.
Nathan Out.
Boundaries Are Okay says
I find it hard to believe that Mr. Katz has not cheated. He seems like the old-fashioned type who is not willing to admit it, but feels it’s a man’s place to cheat but a woman should only feel sexual towards her husband. He loves his wife so much because he can have his cake and eat it, too with her. What man wouldn’t love this kind of woman. As you can see with the Me Too movement, men all over the world had been inappropriate with women. We are not taking it anymore. Be respectful or leave us alone. Can his wife have a lap dance from a man? Would I like to have a lap dance from a man? Of course! But I chose not to out of respect for my husband.
Evan Marc Katz says
Mr. Katz here. Just celebrated my 10th anniversary yesterday. Not only have I never cheated on my wife, I’ve never cheated on anybody.
To respond directly to your criticism. You seem to cast aspersions without knowing anything about me other than what I wrote in this post, and have extrapolated what you know to mean something else entirely. You seem to have not considered that honest, trustworthy, secure people in healthy relationships aren’t threatened the way you are.
Put more explicitly, my wife has gone to more strip clubs in the past 10 years than I have – through maybe 3 or 4 bachelorette parties. Why should I find that disrespectful or threatening when we’re both secure and happy? Maybe your marriage can’t survive it, but mine’s doing just fine, thanks. Have a nice day.
For further reading, check out this blog post I wrote for my 10th anniversary. And this series of posts on cheating, which will undoubtedly drive you up a wall, because they’re all consistent with the idea that maximum trust and freedom are what one should strive for in a relationship.
Boundaries Are Okay says
And why in the world would I, a woman, want to go to a female strip club? I have absolutely no interest in doing that and no man of mine will get my okay to go. Stay away from temptation. You are asking to fall by doing that.
Persephone says
I put trustworthiness as a quality that is at the top of my list for a man. As a result, I got a man who is worthy of my trust.
When doing such a thing, you might end up with a type man that doesn’t have the things that would be at the top of the list for other women. I see women having wish lists, such as wanting someone at least six feet tall, wanting someone with a nice new car, and wanting someone with a stable well paid job.
My guy is none of those, but he has the most important quality. What he lacks on the superficial elements, he makes up for. For example, he’s not tall, but I love the way he presents himself with his clothes and his grooming. He’s my same height, but he has a beautiful posture from playing soccer. He’s brown, but his white teeth look great when he smiles which is often. His English is improving, but his accent sure is cute. He drives an old vehicle, but he maintains it very well.
Can I get a rich, tall, white guy like I’m often told we women are supposed to want? Of course! But I may have to give up on the most important quality in order to do that.
sindi says
would evan be fine with trusting his wife to give other men lap dances at a party he was not attending?
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re drawing a false analogy. I’m fine if she goes to a strip club. She’s fine if I do. These events take place once every 3-5 years, so it’s really not a big deal.
And, to answer your actual question, if my wife were a stripper, giving lap dances would be in the job description and I wouldn’t be bothered by it. Since she’s not a stripper, I don’t think she’d be inclined to give lap dances to other men, and she would agree that it’s inappropriate.
skeptical says
I do want to trust my husband and do to a point. I don’t trust anyone unconditionally , including myself, because of the one true fact that we’re all human. And being human, no one, no not even you Evan, is beyond making mistakes and failing, even in areas we swear we never will. from what i’ve seen, the ones that say ” i would never” are usually the ones that do. Even if a man is head strong and sure of his fidelity, he can be wore down by a charming and attentive woman. men seem to be so easily swayed when it comes to female attention for some reason. they act like when a woman pays attention to them like they’ve never had a woman pay attention to them before in their life and the younger and prettier she is well!!! makes it worse. i think that’s why women worry so much about them cheating, they’re afraid that one time the super hot woman coming on to him he’s gonna cave, even if all the other times he resisted. especially as a man gets older and doesn’t get the attention they did when they were young. they want to know they’ve still got it and if the woman is hot enough and comes on strong enough, i think it would be very difficult for a man to turn it down, from what i’ve seen from men in my lifetime. neighbors, friends, relatives. most are good moral men too, would never have dreamed they would such a thing. i understand most men don’t get the
attention that women do from men, unless he’s a model looking dude, so i guess it’s just more flattering to them than it is women. or is it that we’re just used to it more and don’t put as much weight into it? anyway, i just believe everyone is capable of cheating and giving in when the conditions are right or wrong, whichever case it may be.
Tina says
Haha! This did make me chuckle. As a woman who gave both of her exes all the freedom in the world, I’ve learned an important lesson. The more freedom and leeway you give a man, the easier he finds it to push the envelope that little bit more every time, until…bingo! And I had the utmost trust in them. More fool me.
Tina says
Couldn’t agree with you more. It’s all hogwash. Give a man an inch, he’ll take a mile.