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I am 30, and he is 40. We just like to watch movies, cuddle, hold hands, kiss, talk…we don’t have to have full intercourse all the time, which I find soothing. He usually gives without expecting anything in return. It’s a very sweet and fun situation, and I want it.
But I am a bit confused, since I’ve never been averse to a serious relationship. He has female friends he hangs out with and flirts with, (which I don’t mind) but he doesn’t have sex with anyone but me. Same with me. I “circular date”, but he’s my only sexually intimate partner. He tells me he highly values what we have. I really do too.
So, my question is: Is it okay to want this, since we don’t want anything heavy right now?
Any feedback would be much appreciated. Rori Raye recommended you to me and I am very curious as to what you have to say. She told me she’s worried I might be lying to myself about what I want and she’s not sure how he may feel for me. So she directed me to your blog. If a great instructor like her recommends you, you must have some good advice! 🙂
—Mandy
Mandy,
That’s a kind recommendation and I’m feeling the pressure to live up to the hype. Unfortunately, it will be hard to give a solid answer since you didn’t exactly ask a question.
Is it okay for you to want a casual, open, sexual relationship?
Yes.
Absolutely.
No question about it.
The two questions that immediately pop to mind are these:
1. Why WOULDN’T be okay for you to want a booty call?
For the life of me, I don’t understand. If you’re not ready for anything serious, you enjoy this man’s company, and nobody’s getting hurt, then, by all means, enjoy his companionship for as long as you’d like.
If no one’s getting hurt, two consenting adults can do whatever they want.
There are millions of people who are in these type of “relationships” and I would hope that most of them are choosing this voluntarily, instead of silently suffering, hoping that it will turn into true love.
Which brings me to question #2, originally posed by Rori:
2. Are you sure you don’t want something serious?
If you are sure — if you’re just out of a divorce, if you’re going through therapy, if you feel the need to sow your wild oats, whatever — then this sounds like the perfect temporary arrangement. He sounds fun, respectful, and at peace with the status quo you’ve established.
Again, if no one’s getting hurt, two consenting adults can do whatever they want.
But that only provokes me to ask you why you’d even be asking me this if you were entirely satisfied with the relationship.
Anytime a woman contacts me for dating coaching and says, “My boyfriend—,” I cut her off and remind her that I don’t coach women with boyfriends. Why? Because if you’re in a happy, healthy relationship, you wouldn’t be spending good money on a dating coach. And if you’re NOT in a happy, healthy relationship, why are you even staying with him? Find a new boyfriend instead of complaining that the current one doesn’t call, communicate or commit.
I sort of feel the same about your question, Mandy. From a moral and societal perspective, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having an open and mutually beneficial sexual relationship.
The only thing that could possibly be wrong is the thing that I can’t possibly answer: how YOU feel about it?
Because if you’re setting yourself up for heartbreak and can’t handle the long-term ramifications of having a near-boyfriend who won’t commit, maybe it’s time to get out before you get hurt.
Help me understand–when people say they aren’t ready for anything “serious” or “heavy,” what does that mean?
Not ready to be monogamous? (They already are, seemingly happily.)
Not ready to have deep feelings? She already does.
Not ready to hang out with someone on a regular basis? They already do.
I can understand being ambivalent about a specific person, but what does it mean to categorically not want a serious relationship, if it doesn’t mean the things above? Maybe I’ve always just been wired for pair-bonding, but I’m mystified.
Mini,
It’s complicated. When I kicked my ex husband out, I didn’t want anything serious, right away. Meaning, I didn’t want some guy waiting for me to come home, or to have to be accountable to someone, or have to work on a relationship, etc. I was going through a divorce and wanted to have fun, but wanted to give my emotions a break. I’d been through alot of abuse and hurt, and just wanted to have fun for awhile, while I let my heart and mind take a breather.
Doing that allowed me to have some fun, figure out what I really wanted in a guy, give me practice dating, without it being too involved. I was going through alot with being divorced, paperwork, court dates, dealing with a psychotic ex, and didn’t have much energy left over for a serious relationship, and knew it wasn’t fair to any guy to ask him to go through that, til I knew I was ready to handle things.
I don’t know if that answered any questions, but that’s how I had and still do define a serious relationship vs. non serious.
Whenever I see a dating profile from a guy and it states upfront “Not looking for anything serious – just looking for friends and fun”, I immediately move onto the next profile. I understand now that what this means is a casual relationship that will for the most part probably will NOT turn into something more long term – and I honestly think some women “think” they can be the one to change the guys mind and for them anyway.
To me, when a guy states this it’s like a big neon sign that says “looking for a sex partner only”. If you’re looking to sow your oats or you’ve just gotten out of a divorce or are separated, this is a perfect set up for 2 people who just want a sex partner and cuddles – in other words a psuedo mate without the pressure of actually having to be there when life gets tough and overwhelming.
What I’m having a very hard time wrapping my head around in the dating world is the logic of a complete contradiction of terms called the “casual yet exclusive relationship”. It’s not any form of reliability and it’s ambiguous on purpose for manipulation tactics when one person is obviously not respecting the others boundaries or feelings. It’s a very limited, immature, and stunted way to have relationships in my opinion.
I feel this situation is unhealthy for a woman though who is deep down eventually looking to fulfill the desire for a mate/companion/lover/friend for life. And it’s pretty much wasting your time (and his) in looking for that future mate! You cannot find your serious relationship if you’re just marking time with someone else. She needs to figure out what is wrong with her on the inside to have “deep feelings” for someone yet feel “freaked out” at the prospect of something more meaningful. Sounds like self sabatoge to me.
Evan
From a female perspective I think the real question she is asking is…
“Will it feel like this for much longer, or will I start to grow attatched to this man?”
Yes, she is ok with the way things are now, but how long can any woman stick around with a man who openly doesn’t want to commit?
She is “circular dating” which is fantastic in this situation because she won’t focus solely on this non-committal man. I’m a big fan of dating around and building self esteem and an awareness of what you’re looking for. I’m also a firm believer that a very high percentage of women want and need committment at some point. Even if it’s not a husband. We want to be committed to. If this woman is exploring Rori’s ways…It’s an educated guess that she wants it too.
Sure, it’s great that she’s comfortable now! I can’t get on board with her sticking around much longer. Especially when in her own words she expresses that she likes the non-sexual intimacy and companionship. Sounds like strong feelings are budding!
Of course there’s always the possibility he will simply develop love for her and ask her to be his girlfriend. I just hope she’s not setting herself up for frustration and disappointment.
I re-read and I just can’t see it as “a mutually beneficial sexual relationship”.
Mandy says something like “We don’t have to have full intercourse…”
Doesn’t sound like she’s in it just for sex. Just not buying it! I sense her desire for deep and meaningful.
No strings is just not the road to deep and meaningful.
Ive done that situation before after I was divorced. Even if you tell yourself you want nothing serious it becomes impossible to fight the biology of bonding a woman has for a man through sex. Evan gave a balanced and thoughtful answer but I also caution Mandy that she may get hurt.
Sometimes people are afraid of being “serious” because of their attachment style ( (Eg avoidant attachment)
@ Kathleen,
It depends, though. I dated a couple of guys after I left my ex, and there was no really strong attachment formed even after being intimate. I guess because what I went through may have overrided the bonding? I don’t know, all I can say is that I knew I didn’t want anything more than a good time from a few folks I went out with. I was just enjoying having a great time with a few nice people, but knew ultimately I was not going to want a long-term, committed relationship with them.
@ Tonya
Yes, I do the same thing now too. Like EMK says, if a guy tells you he isn’t interested in anything serious, believe him. I had a couple of guys contact me who were interested in seeing me but most of them I just replied back and said sorry, I’m not looking for a fling, but best of luck to you. Most were either very polite and thanked me for at least letting them know, some never wrote back, a few got downright rude, which had me cracking up laughing. Those, I would read and think wow, even IF I didn’t want a serious relationship, you’ve got serious anger issues so I wouldn’t even have a fling! I divorced that, I’m not going there again!
If I’m on a dating site, I’m not looking for “new friends.” I’m looking for a relationship and I make that very clear. I appreciate the men who are at least honest about what their wants/needs are, but at this point in my life, it wouldn’t work in the least.
I am honestly confused by women who say they don’t want a relationship yet continue to date. I do understand why people might get concerned about being chained down or obligated, but that means they are not in the right relationship. For example, the idea of spending all my spare with a partner and losing my independence and having to check in with him all the time sounds nauseating to me, hence why I find guys who share my views that being in a relationship does not mean spending every Friday and sat night together, burrowing away alone and ditching friends, etc., and being joined at the hip. Casual dating won’t work for me or most women bc casual dates often get flaky, ask you out at the last minute, and don’t call when they say they will. Even circular dating doesn’t work too well for me – if I really like a guy who can’t give me the commitment I need, it doesn’t make me feel better to date others and hang out with friends all the time. So I recently started cutting out anyone who was treating me casually.
Not sure why this woman is setting herself up for heartbreak.
@ Mia,
Well again, look at people like me. Just out of a very bad marriage, no energy left over for a real relationship, but I’d be damned if I was going to sit inside every Friday night, alone. I wanted to meet new people, do happy hours, go dancing. I joined Meetup groups to meet some new folks, but I also enjoyed the company of a guy, having fun, flirting, etc.
Guys date casually and if guys can, we can too. Now, are there alot of cases where a woman may be heading for heartache in this situation? Absolutely. But not all of us are going to get hurt if we’re dating a guy casually. In fact what is funny to me, is that the few guys I did date casually, and it was made pretty clear up front by both parties, where we were, were the least dramatic relationships ever. In fact, one fellow, I still talk to. He knows I’m in a serious relationship right now, and we just say hello on Facebook, stuff like that. Those guys were the most honest and some of the nicest guys I ever met. I so appreciated the honesty and openness. There were no games, no drama, no lies. It was wonderful!
It just depends on where both parties are, where their heads are, etc. This woman may very well be heading for heartbreak but it’s hard to tell.
Unfortunately I really do think that there are literally millions of women who are suffering in set ups like this. I keep hearing about all of these women who can have this kind of relationship and not get hurt. I even know some women who think they can have this kind of relationship and not get hurt but it always seems to end in tears and regret. Maybe it is just the type of people I am hanging around with but these situations seem to be best avoided unless you have experience of this in the past and know you can handle it.
Frankly, unless both people are absolutely certain they won’t get attached, I’m not a fan of these sorts of relationships. I think it’s very difficult to keep feelings in check when you are sleeping with someone. This is basically a FWB relationship, and those almost never work. Somebody, usually the woman, begins to develop deeper feelings, and Mandy has already said that she is feeling that.
So what’s going on? Despite the fun times, either there is something about this man that is keeping Mandy from making a long-term commitment, or deep down, she knows the guy isn’t feeling it for her. She wants to continue the relationship, but is afraid to admit that she wants more. There have been times in my own dating life when I’ve told myself that I could handle the uncertainties of a casual relationship, but I discovered that I really couldn’t.
Although not my thing, I can understand how such arrangement could appeal to someone who wants the best of both worlds: the intimacy and other benefits of a relationship without any expectation of emotional responsability and of progression. Some people do not want any responsability or expectation placed on them, and yet want the day-to-day good feelings of a relationship. A case of having your cake and eat it too!
If you go for this kind of arrangement, I’d suggest to establish clear boundaries to yourself and the other party to avoid falling in the trap of bonding without having see it coming, and without having really chosen the person you find yourself bonded to. I’d limit the activities to temporary fun. Might be more than just sex, might involve cuddling and cooking dinner, but I would avoid meeting more than once a week, sleeping overnight, going on gateways, or starting to look for emotional comfort in that “relationship”.
And that’s what is especially difficult to do (or not do) for women: not becoming attached when sharing on-going intimate activities. No doubt that some ladies can, but most can’t, especailly longer term. Works better if the guy himself establishes such boundaries by not sleeping over, by not meeting her more frequently, etc. Such behaviors would prevent some increasing level of bonding and would naturally keep the arrangement short-term. However if he allows that to happen because he likes the cuddling and the cooking too, then the woman has greater chances to start feeling attached and developing greater expectations, even if “she is not ready”, or even if “he is not LTR material”. And that is the danger of such arrangements: finding yourself bonded to a guy still prioritzing his freedom, or finding the both of you bonded and slipping into a LTR but with a partner you did not choose for the real deal.
An important thing to take into consideration is time. Can you waste some time? Can you imagine yourself single for the next few years? If yes, why not going for such pseudo-relationship? But if you are over 30 and imagine yourself one day with a husband and a couple of kids, I’d suggest to stop wasting time on such “relationships”. The worst than can happen is NOT him leaving because you become more attached, but him becoming attached as well and the both of you slipping into a LTR because “it was comfortable” without having made sure you both have similar values and long-term goals. That’s the best way to waste your thirties and find yourself single at 38 wondering if you still have time to find a husband and have kids before your biological clock has run out of batteries.
Now if we are talking about hurt feelings, well any kind of relationship will trigger hurt feelings. If the goal is to avoid pain, it’s best to stay out of ANY kind of relationship.
I thought “circular dating” meant seeing multiple men and NO sex with any of them. Many of the previous posters have stated what I would’ve: 1. are you wsting your time because your real goal is a real relationship? 2. Don’t expect this to morph into a true relationship; it won’t.
It sounds like to me that MiMi is lying to herself because she is doubting the ability to have a non committal relationship with this man.
If you take the time to write two dating coaches, your not okay and you are seeking approval from someone else.
I suggest being real with yourself.
These kinds of relationships are only good in limited circumstances. I recently had an amazing, uplifting fling for a week when I was out of town with my friend’s friend, and we had a great emotional and physical connection. However, he was unlikely to be ltr material – lived 10 hours away, did manual labor for a living, and other reasons – so the fling was rejuvenating and special for both of us. These things have only worked for me when I am out of town, or am about to move, or they are about to move, or there is some time or location restraint, or they were married/attached – otherwise, no way in hell could I stomach it with some single guy living in the same city who I met in some more formal dating situation. Think of it this way: How would most women feel if that same guy they thought they were ok being in a casual thing with was with another girl the next night, or just stopped calling them for 3 weeks? Women don’t want to feel used, whereas guys really don’t mind being used a lot of times.
FWB relationships certainly can work, with the right people at the right time. I had a situation like this with a man for a couple of years, off and on. There was great chemistry between us, and we had great conversations and went out and did fun things together, but a couple of big deal breakers that prevented either of us from wanting a committed, LTR. But neither of us was seeing anyone else at the time we met, so we agreed to keep things casual and continue on, while dating other people. Our agreement was any time one of us got to the point of becoming intimate with someone else, our time together ended. We wound up back together several times over a couple of years when we were both between relationships. It worked out great, for BOTH of us.
Being in that relationship did not prevent either of us from seeking out other more suitable partners. And it filled a void. As the saying goes, I’d rather have some of my needs met than none of them.
@Jules I had a similar experience with a man for about a year a few years back. He was a great guy, we both really enjoyed each other’s company. He was a good deal old than I was and was clearly not LTR potential but I enjoyed our time together, we drifted in and out of each other’s lives for about a year, sometimes we slept together, other times we just had great phone conversations. I walked away when I met my ex but i have no regrets and neither does he.
For me, I detected the first signs of inner conflict in Mandy’s letter, despite her protestations of “not being ready for anything serious”.
She talks of feeling confused, and of her “deep feelings” for this man, and then of course as others have mentioned, the fact that she is writing to Evan in the first place. To me, these are the first signs of feeling uncomfortable – asking for advice, conflicting feelings. I’m not saying it means she wants a serious relationship with this man; how things pan out from here will depend on any number of factors – the depth of her feelings for him, his feelings for her, what they each want, emotional readiness etc. I know when I was just out of my divorce, I was unable to give anything emotionally to a relationship and I was more than fine with a casual, non-exclusive set-up. But I always knew that this had a time limit.
For what it’s worth, I think women inherently crave certainty and security in their relationships, and most, monogamy. And I think they will often experience this inner conflict until they get it. But as each person and each situation is unique, I believe VERY strongly that your instincts will tell you whether to stay in a given situation, and for how long.
Maybe I’m being a bit cynical here but I would suggest that when someone says ”i don’t want a relationship” and yet still is involved in the trappings of one (regular meeting, sex, enjoying company) its probably more of a case of ”I don’t want a relationship WITH YOU”. Either that or, as a way of self protecting, rather than using an EMK type of statement (this is what i want, this is what you want good luck with your search), they use the ”not looking far/don’t want statement rather than risk appearing needy or at a different place to the other person.
The other option that actually this is a FWB/FB thing and she need some reassurance that this is OK…which it would be if only there wasn’t so much doubt involved.
There have been times in my life where I was open to meeting someone, but didn’t want anything ‘serious’. Long before I ever heard the term Friends With Benefits – I thought of these situations as romantic friendships, or lite relationships. For me, it was about timing. I had been in a long co-habitating partnership that ended. I’d spent the months, year grieving for that relationship, doing the introspection, and retrospection required to figure out why it ended, what my part in that was, what I would do differently in a new relationship. When a long partnership ended I felt a terrible void. I hadn’t realized until he wasn’t around anymore how much time, space and mental energy I had devoted to that one person. And it took a long time for that void to close.
Eventually I came to the point I wanted sex and male companionship and the fun that goes along with dating someone new. But I wasn’t ready to get into another partnership. I didn’t want someone who wanted to spend most of their free time with me. I didn’t want to have dinner together every night. And sleep over every night. I didn’t want to relinquish the remote control. I didn’t want to be responsible to, or for, another person. And make the continuous compromises that come with being a partner. Or even a serious girlfriend.
So I was upfront about not wanting anything serious with men I met when I was in this mode. And these ‘relationships’ – such as they were – were fun and friendly and in a sense, self esteem builders. It’s cool to have someone who thinks you’re attractive and fun! 🙂 Even cooler to not have someone nag you, or put expectations on you because you are their girlfriend.
I found these lite relationships to be short lived – a month, maybe up to 3. Not much drama when they faded away. I liked that Evan used the word temporary – that’s exactly what they were. Looking back, I see them as bridges. I used them to cross from one partnership to another over time. Had I gotten serious while I was on the bridge, I probably wouldn’t have been a good partner. I wasn’t ready. I wasn’t open enough, or capable of the giving that a partnership requires. In one of them, I broke it off because I felt I wanted to fall in love again. I realized I wanted, as was ready for, a real relationship, a real boyfriend.
Whatever term you use to call them, these relationships aren’t without risk. Sometimes one person does become more attached than the other and hurt feelings may be the result. But that is the same risk we all take when dating…even when we don’t put the *casual* tag on it.
To the OP Mandy:
I’m also puzzled why you would be writing to dating coaches if you are content with your situation. 30 is an age where many women feel some pressure – subtle, or not so subtle – to “settle down”, get married, think about having children. Perhaps that is not something you want or are ready for right now, and why a non-serious relationship is enjoyable for you. That’s perfectly okay. I wonder if you may be questioning yourself that you SHOULD want something more than this? If that’s true, look for that voice and examine what it’s saying and how valid it is for you.
None of us can predict what will happen, how we might feel in the future – if you and your friend are on the same page and happy with the way things are…why not just go with the flow? The future has a way of taking care of itself one way or another.
@Tonya #3
What I’m having a very hard time wrapping my head around in the dating world is the logic of a complete contradiction of terms called the “casual yet exclusive relationship”.
Some people are not comfortable dating, or sleeping with, more than one person at a time. I would interpret a casual yet exclusive relationship to mean the parties have agreed to be open about the possibility of meeting others, but inform each other should either actually get involved with someone else. That is, they don’t see themselves as ever becoming partners to each other, but they don’t want to have sex with someone who’s having sex with other people.
@ Jules:
You’re definitely describing what I had last summer. I had taken a little bit of time off from really dating anyone, and had met this fellow online. We met, and it just kind of happened from there. We did talk early on, about how we were fine with us seeing other people but that there was a need to be “careful” and to communicate. And that we did. And it worked out beautifully. He was extremely supportive when my Mom got sick, let me vent and cry on the phone when she went in for surgery, etc. Contact kind of faded towards the end of last year but I did not take it personally and actually went out on a few dates with other people. He was busy alot, and since we both knew this wasn’t serious, it wasn’t like I was sitting by my phone going boohoo, why won’t he call?
Now, I have had a couple of non-serious situations where “I” knew this was going to go nowhere, but the guy would act like maybe it could go somewhere. It used to crack me up because I’d sit there and think buddy, really? I am NOT that stupid. I know you’re just here for a shag, but the funny part is that I know this, and I’m just going to let you prattle on about staying over, or making plans one night the following week, because you sound so silly. Now was that a cynical way to look at things? Oh perhaps. But I tell you what, it kept me from getting my feelings hurt, taking things personally, etc. I would just think OK, had a nice time. Next order of business, please!
I don’t know if it’s a combination of having been hurt so often that I’ve kind of hardened my heart some to prevent getting stung so badly, learning boundaries, or both, but whatever it is, it’s worked for me in the past and should I find myself in that situation again, it will keep me sane again. I’ve learned to put boundaries on my heart, to not give it away so easily, and to just watch, listen, and choose when to walk away, or just let things be as they are, have fun, and walk away with a smile at the end.
Now if the guy is lying and I catch him, i.e. projecting a future for us, and showing by his actions that that’s not what he wants, then I walk away after telling them to piss off and stop the lying games because I’m not that stupid. But otherwise, if both parties are OK with it, and truly OK with it, then hey, game on and no judgment.
I could do the casual dating thing as long as I was not sexually intimate with the guy Since I seem to have a pattern of dating emotionally unavailable men, whom I trnd to get attached to and end up with a broken heart, I am currently seeing a counselor to find out why. Until I do, platonic casual dating works very well.
I guess I need to rephrase – I have a hard time with the “casual yet exclusive” relationship when basically the woman (me for instance) gets involved with a guy and is desiring long term…and the guy in the beginning seems fine with that notion, and then it’s like the “newness” wears off and all of the sudden she finds herself on the friends with benefits wagon (basically casual yet exclusive).
Why date a guy who’s seeing other women if he’s sleeping with just you?..(and vice versa). I mean what’s the POINT of that? Sure it’s a great set up if both people are on the same page and really not into eachother to the point of going for more – but iot’s not not when the floor drops out from under you and all of the sudden you’ve gone from gf material to BFW.
@ Clare: I know when I was just out of my divorce, I was unable to give anything emotionally to a relationship and I was more than fine with a casual, non-exclusive set-up. But I always knew that this had a time limit.
For what it’s worth, I think women inherently crave certainty and security in their relationships, and most, monogamy. And I think they will often experience this inner conflict until they get it.
TOTALLY on all counts.
Tonya,
I’m sorry you have found yourself on the FWB wagon not having signed on for that. 🙁
I believe you have answered your own question: why would YOU continue dating/sleeping with a guy who’s seeing other women if you want a serious relationship? What’s the point of that for you? I understand how disappointing this situation is, but I think you would be happier if you cut this fellow loose. Don’t you?
When I ended a casual relationship with someone because I came to the place I wanted a real relationship, a big reason is because I wanted to be psychologically open to finding the right guy. I had the vague idea that continuing to sleep with my friend would in some karmic way, prevent me from meeting that boyfriend. I wanted to start fresh -so to speak – without having anyone else mucking about in the backround.
@ Tonya,
Oh that makes sense. I actually met a guy who was kind of wanting to go that way, at least that was what he SAID. He SAID he wanted us to be exclusive physically but be OK with hanging out with other people. So what I did was remove my dating profile, because he’s made a comment about our profiles, namely mine, being active. I told him what I did and oooooh all of a sudden, he just couldn’t hack it. I fought the urge to go OK asshole, I went along with what you wanted but when that was handed to you, now you don’t want it all of a sudden. I told him to piss off and with a quickness. I didn’t have time for his games. I got an apology but I ignored it. I wasn’t going to tell him “Oh it’s OK” because it wasn’t, he lied and I caught him in it, and I know he was only sorry that I called him out.
When a guy does treat you with disrespect, then it’s time to roll. I had a few casual situations where they’d ask to do something last minute, and if I really had nothing going on, I’d go out with them, since I knew they were not LTR material and I just wanted to get out. But mostly if they did pull a last minute number, I just gently let them know that I did indeed have other plans, but maybe “some other time.” It worked beautifully, they learned that my life didn’t revolve around their texts or calls, and they respected that.
These situations are very tricky, and can easily hurt you, if you don’t know what you truly want, or lie to yourself about what you want. I was under no serious delusions about what some of those guys wanted, I knew.
Hey Selena! I am not in that type of sitatuation anymore thanks to websites like this and Baggage Reclaim. I was stating a blanket comment in general to the situation of the OP. Why would you want to be in a “relationship” that’s ambiguious by sleeping with someone who’s just going to leave when something better comes along if you have “feelings” for them? Again – it’s fine when you’re not looking for anything serious but if you are, you should be honest with yourself and she seems to be trying to screw with her own head.
Heather, my first brush with this situation was exactly similiar to yours…line for line. Then that’s when I was like wtf am I doing??? The whole term “Casual/Exclusive” is a complete oxy moron as it is. Those two words are opposites!! After a year I went no contact.
This past March I met a guy online who seemed on board with a relationship – then when things started to turn more “committal” after 2 months he went nuts. Started fights with me, found fault, less contact to manage down my expectations…it’s like a switch turned off and all the sudden I was his booty call. Still dont know what happened with that other than to say I know it’s not me but HIM so i broke it off.
Last I saw him was a month ago and he texts me last night. I kept it cordial and short. Have no idea what he’s trying to pull but I’m through with guys BS’g me when I’m entirely serious about finding someone. And I’m tired of screwing with my own mind trying to talk myself into believing things that wont happen. I’ve realized as well that it’s WHO I PICK as much as who picks me…so I’m making the concious effort to bail the minute I see red flags and give others a chance that I may have dismissed at first meet.
Wow, Mandy is a typical woman who is wasting her prime dating years playing the field. I wonder whether the other men in her “dating circle” circle know that she is dating a bunch of other men.
I have no doubt that she will contact Evan in 5 years when she hits 35 and is wondering why she still isn’t married and will probably blame her unmarried status on the men she has dated in the past.
The problem here is mainly one of language. “Dating” can mean a thousand different things to a thousand different people.
In my case, I’m 31 and not even a year out from my divorce. “Dating” is a means of auditioning potential casual partners who have the same goals and are interesting, well-rounded, and able to hold a conversation.
And yes, these are biologically significant years for me – I’m aware. But I can’t force myself to feel ready to commit to another serious relationship. I just don’t want one right now. And I absolutely refuse to rush into a relationship when my head isn’t in the right place just because I might want to have babies someday. That doesn’t serve anyone – not me, not my potential partner, and definitely not those theoretical babies.
For those who talk about the importance of time alone after a significant relationship ends: “alone” can have a lot of definitions, too. I’m more alone than I’ve ever been. I’ve had time for reflecting, healing, creating. I do what I want, when I want, travel without consulting anyone else. I’m thinking about what’s best for me and my career, contemplating where I want to live, enjoying time with my friends, and pursuing my hobbies. But I’m also not going to be celibate if I don’t have to!
Listening to other people’s struggles with this stuff makes me feel almost guilty for how easy it’s been for me: I have been enjoying a steady rotation of decent, gentlemanly, intelligent guys who share my enthusiasm for sex, good cooking, the occasional movie, whatever. We’re open about our expectations, comfortable with how things stand between us, and always willing to communicate should things change.
Yes, in a sense, we’re passing time. But we’re also enjoying that time. We’re not broken, and we’re not neglecting our responsibility to think about the big picture. We’d be able to commit to the right people if we wanted to. We’re just choosing not to pursue it at this point.
In much the same way that you might take a year off to attend school in order to advance your career in the long run, we’re taking this time off from serious relationships with the knowledge that eventually, we will move back to the white-picket-fence track. And nothing I’m doing now is going to damage my ability to pursue that if and when I decide that it’s what I want.
Now, would any of this work if I was secretly pining for any of my companions, or if I actively felt the need to settle down and was trying to deny that? Lord, no! That’s why it’s so vital to be honest with yourself about this stuff. Because if it isn’t what you really want, you won’t enjoy it, and in that case, what the hell’s the point?
What I’m saying is: it’s possible. Whether Mandy’s lying to herself is for her alone to know, but I think that a part of the reason she’s struggling is this pressure that’s placed on us based on the assumption that if you happen to be of reproductive age and unattached, you should definitely be spending your time looking for a husband. And that’s just not where everyone needs to be, nor can we force ourselves into that place if we’re not ready.
Tonya,
I don’t know what happened there either, but I can’t help wondering if he was on his “best behavior” those first two months, then reverted to his true personality. Ugh. Better to find that out at 2 mos., rather than 6. Or longer. Good for you for moving on.
Mia (#15), men actually do mind if they are “used” by women. Of course, men might not mind being “used” for sex. However, I men often complain about women using them for other things, such as leading them on and taking advantage of them by getting them men to pay for dates/entertainment even though the women have no romantic/sexual interest in those men.
As one who has never liked FWB or very casual dating, I wonder if those who do it deliberately pick someone that they would not want an LTR with? In other words, even if you are rebounding from something more serious, would you just let a really great person go, or are you, on some level, choosing someone with issues that would prohibit a serious relationship anyway? Doesn’t it ever get in the way of finding a real partner because it’s easy and safe?
@Kurt #30 <<I have no doubt that she will contact Evan in 5 years when she hits 35 and is wondering why she still isn’t married and will probably blame her unmarried status on the men she has dated in the past. >>
That is a pretty gloomy scenario you have predicted for Mandy. There is nothing wrong with playing the field, for either sex. Who knows how things will go for her in the next 5 years? She could be ready for a serious relationship in in the next few months, and find one easily. Nothing is set in stone.
@kurt if a woman isn’t ready to jump back into a relationship then what’s wrong with her being casual? Men do this all the time, no one says they are wasting their time.
If she wrote to Evan asking how to turn this guy into a husband that would be a problem.
Tonya
There are people who avoid closeness without being consciously aware of it . They may break up when they get too close. Ive had a number contact me on line and if you are aware of attachment styles you may be more likely to identify a guy ( or woman) who may be like this
One guy who contacted me, never been married at 45, didn’t want anything serious, couldn’t describe being really upset when he broke up with anyone, and wasn’t involved with anyone for more than maybe 2 years. There was a consistent pattern of not really being that attached with anyone and if you ask enough questions it may become obvious. Some others it may be more subtle but if you look up attachment styles it increases your awareness so you don’t waste your time
@ Tonya,
Yes I have had men do that to me too, and in the last year of learning and developing my boundaries, I was so much better able to see that for what it was, and that often it wasn’t about ME but about THEIR issues, and it was time to pull the plug and roll. A few would try to creep back into my life and I would either just ignore their texts/emails or just email/text back, not interested, best of luck to you, please do not contact me again.
@ Kurt,
So let me see if I get this right. It’s OK for you guys to play the field, do whatever, and have us girls wait on you. But it’s NOT OK for us to date other men if we don’t have a commitment. Is that what I’m hearing? Because that is exactly how your post comes across. I don’t do double standards. If you men can do as you wish, then we women sure as hell can and will do the same. If that is a problem for you, then I’d suggest making sure that you “lock down” a girl instead of farting around. Just sayin.
Heather, I’m unable to find where Kurt says it’s OK for men to play the field.
@ Ruby #33
You pose some good questions. When I was in casual mode I don’t know if I subconciously chose someone I knew I wouldn’t want for a partner – all I knew is I didn’t want someone who would want so much of my time and attention. There was one guy I thought after 2 mos. I might be falling for. Ironically, the day after I thought that we were talking on the phone and he broke it off saying “The boyfriend/girlfriend scares me.” I was surprised because we weren’t acting like bf/gf -lol!(Maybe he was picking up on my feelings before I did?) I was disappointed, but I got over it in 4 days, so apparently I hadn’t really fallen for him after all.
My lite relationships we all brief: either he or I broke it off within 3 mos. I don’t have any experience with long-term casual relationships. Thinking about it, I don’t find the idea of one very appealing.
Kurt # 32 sounds bitter.
The guys who Ive heard say women have used them/ taken advantage of them for dates or entertainment often don’t see the cues that the woman is open but decides they aren’t a match. The men Ive known who talk this way are often choosing the “hottest ” women who have the most choices. Also its not often you hear a guy complain that women are taking advantage of him
If you want a guarantee you get your moneys worth from a date then get a prostitute
Heather, I did not write anything about men playing the field. Women often claim that men just want to play the field, but in my own personal experience the exact opposite is true – it is the women, not the men, who actually play the field and don’t want to commit to a relationship. This is particularly true of women when they are young and get the most attention from men.
I also know a lot of men who would like to be in a relationship but who struggle because it is difficult to find a woman who takes dating seriously instead of just playing the field – women like this often seem to keep the men in the dark and don’t see anything wrong with accepting dates and letting the man pay.
I know numerous women, particularly white collar women, who played this game when they were young and then only got serious about finding a husband when they were in their late 30s only to discover that the type of men they thought they could get to commit at that age didn’t want them.
Kurt, here’s the difference between men and women playing the field: when I was 19, I shattered my first boyfriends heart by breaking up after a year of dating. I wanted to hook up with hot frat boys and didn’t want a long distance ltr with him. But that wanting to be single phase ended after a year and a half or so. Men, by comparison, often want to play the field for a goddamn decade.
These guys getting “used” are also often the same guys who would pass up a girl like me for being attracted and interested in them. They love games, chases and challenges. They never consider that if a girl is waiting so long to kiss – I usually wait til 2nd-3rd date – she is using them. Besides, the only intentional users are usually the blatantly high maintenance party girl types.
Heather
“It’s OK for you guys to play the field, do whatever…we women sure as hell can and will do the same”
You’d be surprised how many people are not OK with guys playing the field. Women (particularly on this blog) often call these men players, users, commitment phobes, creeps, disgusting etc., whereas often these men are just regular nice guys who aren’t sure what they want in life. I’m constantly amazed at how many people still judge others for what they do sexually. Of course it’s okay if Mandy does or doesn’t want casual.
Kurt
“I know numerous women, particularly white collar women, who played this game when they were young and then only got serious about finding a husband when they were in their late 30’s”
It’s think it’s perfectly reasonable for women to play the field and enjoy themselves when they are young. White collar women often spend years in college, getting on their feet financially and just figuring out what they want in life. Where I disagree with you is the age in which they get serious about dating. I find women change their attitude to dating at 28 / 29; it’s almost like a light switch the change is so sudden. I’m that age and whereas for me dating is still just fun, my contemporaries generally look for more. Therefore I’ve started to date slightly younger women (mid-20’s) as they don’t tend to be as serious.
As many of the posters here have said, it’s often about timing. People mature at different rates so they have different envisioned timelines of when they will settle down. I let a fantastic woman go recently simply because I feel I’ve a few more years left to play the game.
I think a lot of great points have been made so far, both in favor of and against the type of situation the OP is in.
As others have mentioned, none of us can say it’s “wrong” to want to play the field, or take some time for meaningless fun between serious relationships. Most of us also agree that it rarely lasts for long. And it sounds like the OP has an emotional investment in this guy, despite not wanting a “serious relationship,” which is what really sends things into the danger/confusion zone, in my opinion.
When I first moved to NYC 6 years ago, after breaking off two serious relationships in a row, I dove right in to the “casual” thing. I think I wanted to try something exciting and different after spending age 18-27 in long-term relationships. But I was still a romantic, emotional woman at heart, and I would inevitably grow attached to the attractive, interesting, yet textbook-unavailable men I got involved with. Even as recently as last year, I was doing this sort of thing in between first dates with more “serious” men. I don’t completely regret my experiences…they have definitely made my life more colorful, and taught me a lot about the male mind (before discovering Evan Marc Katz!), to say nothing of a certain other part of the male!…but overall and in retrospect, I think they were a big, emotionally screwed-up (for me) waste of time. In each case, the guy involved was not a jerk or an asshole. None of them made any promise of commitment. My mistake was being so enticed by their particular spark, that I accepted them on their terms, and then hoped to change the relationship to suit my terms. Which of course never ever happened.
I am in a happy relationship now, but I wish I had opened an account on Match.com and gone back to dating the “serious” way as soon as my first “casual” relationship got the better of me.
If the OP is comfortable and not confused right now, she should absolutely enjoy her relationship. If she’s starting to feel conflicted, I suggest she turn her current relationship into a platonic, less emotionally-close one, and continue to meet new men until there’s someone she does feel serious about. Whether she wants marriage and kids someday or not, there’s no point in giving so much of yourself and your time to someone with whom there is no “future.”
Mia, you are definitely correct that if there hasn’t been a kiss by the second date or the third, the woman is using the man if she keeps agreeing to go out on dates with him. Then again, the man is very foolish or at least very inexperienced with respect to dating if he keeps asking out a girl that many times if he hasn’t even kissed her.
Ruby,
” I wonder if those who do it deliberately pick someone that they would not want an LTR with? ”
I didn’t deliberately seek a FWB situation. In fact, after about 2 dates with this person I told him I didn’t think we were compatible long-term and was not interested in continuing to see him. He agreed about the long-term thing, but then said he would not be opposed to continuing on a casual basis. And I was on board with that since we had such great chemistry (and I personally find that very elusive), so our FWB relationship started (after setting some ground rules). I didn’t choose someone with issues, but some deal-breakers came up after a couple of dates. But the chemistry and companionship were there, and since both of us were on the same page in terms of not wanting anything more from each other, it worked for us.
“Doesn’t it ever get in the way of finding a real partner because it’s easy and safe?”
For me–absolutely not. In fact just the opposite. For one thing, since I was getting my sexual needs met, I was much less needy and much less quick to jump into bed when someone with real potential came along. In other words, I was not meeting people with six months of celibacy driving me crazy :).
Also, since the FWB relationship was lacking in some regards in emotional intimacy (intentionally, because I did NOT want to get attached to this man) it made me crave a “real” relationship all that much more.
@ Kurt:
Your post made it sound exactly like what I got out of it, that you seem to have a lot of issues with women dating multiple men. So many guys do it, and think nothing of it, particularly when there’s no commitment. So if you guys can do it, we women can do it too, and we shouldn’t be judged for it. Your posts seem very bitter towards women and actually, almost word for word, you sound like an ex-boyfriend of mine who was very bitter because he never could make a relationship stick for more than a year or so, mainly because he had no confidence, blamed everyone else, particularly women, for his problems, and the list goes on. But his complaints sound verbatim like yours.
I’ve never said, and nor will I ever say, that I have issues with guys playing the field IF there is no commitment. What they do is up to them. BUT. If there IS a commitment and they do that, then you’d better believe that I will call a guy out for it.
Like I said. I don’t do double standards. And if a guy wants to judge me for dating several men when there’s no commitment involved, then he’s not a guy I want, as a friend or as a potential partner. Like EMK said in a recent blog post: “What do you do with a judgmental guy? Hint: it sounds like ‘lump him.’ “
I think Mandy is accepting of this situation because she believes this guy when he says he’s not sleeping with any of these other female friends that he flirts with. If he were, I think she’d be less accepting of what this guy offers.
Whether she wants to admit this or not, she believes that – despite the lack of expressed commitment from him – this is a relationship with potential.
Let’s apply some critical thinking and common sense to this situation: why would a man tell a woman that he was not sleeping with anyone else? Men only do this for two reasons: because they want to be exclusive or because they believe it is what the woman wants to hear because she asked him and he wants to avoid conflict. Since exclusivity isn’t an option here, his confession likely falls under Option 2.
It’s perfectly fine for Mandy to participate in this relationship. But she should accept the reality that this guy is likely sleeping with others, or at least he will. That’s one of the main reasons why men don’t commit – they don’t want monogamy.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with wanting to just have a casual relationship with someone as long as it’s mutual. I think what the OP is asking is “Is it okay to be casual with him because I don’t see myself in a serious, committed relationship with him – and the answer is Yes” I think she may think that she is being non-commitment oriented in general when the truth is she is not wanting a commitment with this man because the feelings aren’t strong enough for a full-blown relationship.
It depends on everyone’s personality. The way I see it is I would rather be completely single then be with someone I felt obligated to having a commitment with. Yet, I can’t completely shut the doors and say that in my future I may run across someone that we decide we are more casual and nothing more, which most likely would happen in exploring if a relationship was a good fit or not. As long as two people are on the same page, it’s okay.
This LW (Letter Writer) made me look up a post in another blog that is very thought provoking.
http://wwnh.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/1435-fidelity-without-his-devotion-unlikely-%E2%80%94-part-ii/
I have to admit that “Option A” is one have subscribed to and lived by since I started dating. And Option A works for me still, because I’m not looking for marriage. However, I absolutely agree that “Option B” is definitely more woman-friendly, particularly if you are looking for marriage.
It actually sounds as if LW is trying to live her life via Option B, so I applaud her doing so. I think all of us should consider how NOT being committed to one man until marriage is beneficial to women. I agree with this concept whole-heartedly.
For those women who here who do abstain from sex “until a relationship” you’re kind of half-way there. The problem is that if you really want marriage, per this blogger, you should abstain until you get a proposal. Not sure that is viable, but perhaps if you can keep your man happy simply by “rounding the bases” until a proposal is elicited, that might be the way to effect this according to plan B.
AMENDMENT #49
I reversed Option A and B…Sorry!
Option A is better for women. Option B is friendly to men.
Evan, if you can edit for me that would be better!
Sorry!
@Karmic Equation #49/50:
Option C: Stop playing silly mind-game rooted in a desire for unhealthy power dynamics between gender.
After a few dates simply ask what their intentions are, clarify with gentleness, humor, but firmness what you would like to build for a relationship, and from there proceed with respect and care. With sex or no sex, whatever floats your boat. But if you want an emotionally and physically monogamous marriage, you are going to need to build its foundations in an emotionally and physically monogamous courtship.
@Fusee 51
Well said, Fusee. Unfortunately, that isn’t the reality of how most people start their relationships. Maybe not even how some build it. I got married without doing it that way, as I imagine most people have.
Your way is very outcome oriented, almost business-like.
I don’t want my relationships to feel like a business transaction. Romance is more important to me than marriage, having been there/done that.
You’ve stated that is your goal and I’m sure you will reach it come hell or high water, but at what cost, I wonder?
@Karmic Equation #52:
Yes, for me marriage is the desired outcome of the dating and courtship phases. If at any point in these phases I realize that the guy is not interested in building a life-long marriage, or that we are not compatible, or that he does not have the quality of character required, I’ll happily opt out. But marriage is not really an “outcome”, this is the real start of the relationship: a life-long adventure where two people are going to practice the art of being together despite all kinds of unexpected challenges.
The Option A that you seem interested in worked great until the 60s, when marriage was the social norm and the only way for respectable men and women to have sex and to be considered adults. At that time a woman could “talk” to several men until one would propose. Proposing was the equivalent of today’s “dating exclusively”, while marriage was the equivalent of today’s “moving in together”. There were a lot more marriages since it was the only way to sex and cohabitation. But a lot of these marriages were not that happy. Or faithful.
Option A (aka “back to the old ages”) might be appealing, but trying to follow rules from the past in the current dating culture is not going to be effective, and very simply because men do not need/want marriage any more. They can get all the sex they want (and other benefits) without having to be commit to the provider, and society does not look down on them if they do not have a wife. Quite the opposite!
These days, if a woman wants to be married, she is going to have to be very clear about her goals, especially if she wants to avoid being side-tracked to the “playing house category” or any other dead-end LTR where she will indeed be stuck in a commitment but without receiving the long-term security she desires. She is also going to have to be such an amazing woman that this man who does not need marriage anymore is going to be willing to go for it nevertheless.
So yes, because I prefer being single than in an ongoing/undefined LTR, I decided to date purposefully. My approach is therefore much more deliberate than what most women are doing these days (hoping for an offer of exclusivity, agreeing to a cohabitation, waiting for a proposal, etc). Not only to make sure I’m dating someone with the same long-term goals from the getgo, but to make sure I’m with someone of great character. Someone who can tackle these big scary questions heads-on instead of hesitating for years while I invest in him my most precious years.
I’m against withdrawing commitment during dating/courtship because it does not make sense to me to prepare a monogamous relationship by not being monogamous. Also I doubt that it will make decent men run to the jewelry store by fear of “losing a deal” (a “deal” consisting of a woman claiming love but “talking” to other men). I’m also in favor of exploring physical intimacy as part of the courtship as long as both (committed) partners agree that they are evaluating each other and their relationship for marriage. I refuse to sign a lease/move in before marriage or at least before the engagement + a wedding date since I’m not going to play house while he makes up his mind. And I limit the dating/courtship phase to around 12-18 months, depending of course of the circumstances. Flexibility is needed but the intention is necessary to allow progress towards opting for or against marriage. That’s how I avoid being side-tracked into the “dead-end LTR track” where the man is encouraged to postpone considering a real commitment. If at any time in the courtship he realizes that he does not want a marriage and/or that he does not desire to unite in marriage with me, he has plently of time to decide to opt out, but not too much time to do so. He’s got to start thinking about it as we are starting dating.
Is it common to do this? Definitely not, and so what? It is a middle way between the good old ages and the current irresponsible dating culture, and I found it working very well for me. I’ve avoided men who had not figured themsleves out, men of less than outstanding character, men who want to have their cake and eat it too, etc. And I’m now investing my precious energy and love in a wonderful man. I’m sure he is happy that I kept myself available for him instead of playing house with someone else who would be stringing me along. But my man deserves my commitment and devotion until we make the most important decision of our lives, regardless of what that decision is.
Seriously, to each their own! You are obviously more experienced than me since you were married. Also, if romance is what you are after, then “Option D: going with the flow” might actually work best for you.
@Fusee 51 Well put indeed. I really like your communication style and relationship philosophy that you describe in many of your posts.
@Karmic52
Unfortunately, that isn’t the reality of how most people start their relationships. Maybe not even how some build it. I got married without doing it that way, as I imagine most people have.
True, and your marriage relationship ultimately failed, and mine did too. Don’t recall if Fusee has been married yet. Might be a coincidence, maybe not.
I don’t want my relationships to feel like a business transaction. Romance is more important to me than marriage, having been there/done that.
If you want an LTR (meaning lasting more than six months or maybe a year or so), part of that is looking at things like similar life goals and compatible communication styles and that is very much an exercise of the brain, and not the heart. Romance can still be there too, but on its own will only carry you so far. The chemical high or romance will evaporate completely in time if the other elements are not in place. If you are content with turning over partners every once in a while, that is fine, but make that decision consciously, and let your partners know that is where you are coming from.
@David T #53: I also tend to agree very much with your comments.
“Don’t recall if Fusee has been married yet”
No, at 33 I’ve never been married. Hoping to have ONE marriage. I was in a seven-year relationship in my teens to mid-twenties, in two other LTRs-ish, and since my late twenties/early thrities I’ve been following a progressively more mindful and purposeful dating strategy. In the seven-year relationship, I was the one “stringing the man along” as I was trying to figure myself out, and it sadly took a LONG time. I regret that my lack of mindfulness broke his heart when I ended the relationship but he thankfully rather quickly met another woman who was more compatible to his personality. I really know both sides of the coin…
I think it’s easier to cultivate – and later rekindle – romance in a solid friendship-based and value-based marriage where both partners start with a strong physical attraction of each other and a commitment to lighting the fires once in a while. But I do not have much experience in this area. Any long time married folks here who can talk about romance over the years?
@David T
My marriage ended because the romance left it and neither my spouse nor I made any efforts to nurture it when it was waning, probably simply due to lack of knowledge. My marriage lasted 9 years (entire relationship was 11 years). So we were well beyond the chemical highs when we divorced. We never cheated on each other either.
We had a good companionship and friendship. But I realized that was not enough. We were roommates who shared a bank account at the end. It didn’t feel like how a wife should feel about her husband. People remain in marriages on less than this. But I wanted more.
I’m still on very good terms with my ex-husband, so the friendship endures to this day.
Romance is important because I learned that is something I’m not happy without. After doing a lot of reading, I realized I wasn’t doing my part to encourage his romance. So now I’m much better prepared to nurture romance in my relationships going forward, since I now have an understanding of what I need to do keep it flowing.
Since I don’t need a man to provide for me nor do I want children, marriage is not a requirement. All I ever wanted from a relationship is a man that I can spend time enjoying life with. I no longer need a label for my relationships, whereas when I was 25, I was definitely in love with the idea of “getting married.” Except for the wedding day, being married and being in an LTR feels no different to me.
Fusee, I feel like you are my twin. 🙂
I was just talking to another female friend of mine (mid-30s, successful, smart, etc.) and learned that she also took the very deliberate, goal-oriented, almost businesslike approach to finding a partner after her relationships that came from just “going with the flow” failed. She’s now been married seven years, has a baby and another on the way. She said she’s never been happier and is madly in love with her husband.
And as I mentioned before, after spending my 20s just letting things happen (and nothing happened… went a whole decade without having an LTR of any sort), I also decided to approach dating in a more business-like fashion, and soon met the man I married (I was two days from turning 33 when we married).
As you said, I think this is almost the approach women who want marriage have to take now because we live in a society in which marriage is not the automatic goal of a dating relationship. As silly as it sounds, I had to learn this the hard way, as I always thought that if boy met girl and boy liked girl, they would become boyfriend and girlfriend, and then after a year or two get engaged and then get married. I was not prepared for the “I want to date, but not settle down yet even though I’m in my 30s” mindset, or the “divorced man just out of a marriage and just looking to date around” mentality, among others. I’m not saying these types of guys are wrong in wanting to do this, but such situations make it harder for a woman who is looking to marry and perhaps have children.
You can easily get derailed by those who don’t have the same goal and who are more than willing to enjoy the benefits of a relationship or friendship with a woman without having any plans to marry her.
It’s interesting to me that there seems to be such an aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset. I think there’s way too much emphasis on “feelings” and so-called “organic” development of relationships, but I haven’t really seen those types of situations necessarily resulting in better end results for women (and men) than having a goal about what you want from a dating/courtship experience and sticking to that.
But I can only speak for myself and my friend — although we both haven’t been married that long — and say that we were MUCH happier with how our relational lives turned out once we took that so-called outcome-based approach to relationships and went after exactly what we wanted in a partner (and quickly dismissed those who didn’t fit).
Hi SS,
Not sure if you were thinking of me when you wrote “aversion to marriage” – for me, not aversion, per se, but rather not giving marriage extra value than an LTR, since I don’t want children nor for economic benefits (not saying *you* need them for this, btw). Plus I think I want to change partners after X years, so unless I want to be like the Gabor sisters, with multiple marriages and divorces behind me, staying unmarried is best for me and my peace of mind.
That said, I’m pretty sure that had I not already been married once, I would want to be married too. So I’m gaining new appreciation for what you and Fusee are doing in a business-like way. It sounds like that must be the way it’s done nowadays if you really desire marriage as your goal.
However, since I have the benefit of having been married and am financially- and emotionally-free from “needing” a man, I can choose to be with men that appease my need for romance. I’m not flitting from man to man, and I do stay with my men beyond the chemical highs (which only last about 2 yrs) — so I’m not in it for just the romance, but the entire experience of being in a fulfilling relationship. I guess I just don’t believe in (nor want to have) a relationship that lasts “forever.” And when the experience is no longer as positive as I want it to be or if I no longer feel like working on the relationship, I need to be able to feel that I can leave it whenever I want to (whether or not I actually do it).
With this mindset, marriage feels like a trap, so it’s better for me not to be in one. I would probably work on it less than a relationship which I “choose” to stay in instead of being “obliged” to stay in, which marriage connotes to me.
@SS #57: “Fusee, I feel like you are my twin.”
Over the last months of reading your comments, I often felt the same way and I’d love to have a twin sister : ) It’s a great encouragement to read your story. I wish you and your husband a lot of happiness in your marriage!
“It’s interesting to me that there seems to be such an aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset. I think there’s way too much emphasis on “feelings” and so-called “organic” development of relationships…”
I agree! Each time I explain my approach I get a comment in return about how much pressure I put on the relationship, how desperate it sounds, how unromantic it is, etc. To each their own, really. It’s a matter of priority. Are you prioritizing instant gratification? Romance? Looking cool? Long-term happiness? Some of my female friends would not follow my approach in a million years, and that’s fine. I’m not trying to convert anyone. But I’d like to clarify that I’m not desperate for marriage. As of today I could have married four men (two were wonderful but I did not feel it, two did not qualify, one of them is still trying : ), and I’m currently investigating the fifth. He is rather glad I’m purposeful, because he’s always wanted to have a long-term partner but had no clue how to move past chemistry and how to build a serious relationship.
If I had wanted a marriage, I would be married by now. I do not NEED a marriage and I have pretty much no desire for children. I am extremely happy single, and that’s why I’m fine with the idea of letting a good man pass. Indeed, what I do NOT want for my thirties is being stuck in a dead-end “organic” relationship. And I’m simply taking care of my happiness by avoiding ending up in a situtation that will make me unhappy. I’d rather let a few good men pass than wasting my precious thirties in dead-end relationships. Hence the shorter deadlines I allow for courtship. If it’s not going to be investigated within the first 18 months, it’s unlikely to be explored at the three-year mark, especially if the man is not purposeful. And few are. (Note: Evan and Karl R were extremely purposeful, but they are the exceptions to the rule, and that’s why their girlfriends did not have to say the “M” word).
And no, the goal of marriage is not making me overlook the reality of courting my wonderful man or forget to get to know him and love him! This is the WHOLE point. Making sure I’d want to love him for life despite his flaws, and making sure he’d want to love me for life despite my flaws. And making sure he can make it even when life gets rough. It takes time to figure this out, but it does not take years. At 13 months, we’re *almost* there, just working on a few more doubts and growth points before saying yay or nay.
Now, if I happen to remain a happy single well into my forties, my strategy might change. My forties will be less precious as I will be less flexible with location and other life questions, and well, I will be less attractive : ) Now is the time for me to be completely free OR to build a solid and happy marriage where my compromises and sacrifices will be part of a life-long journey. At this point I have way too much to offer to the right man, from my looks to my flexibility, from my ability to have children to the availability of my financial assets, etc. In my forties I will be settled somewhere for good, and not as open to move for him. I will have invested all my assets for an early retirement and will not be able to participate in a common financial goal. At that point I might probably be fine in a less defined LTR. NOT NOW!
@Karmic Equation #58:
“Plus I think I want to change partners after X years, so unless I want to be like the Gabor sisters, with multiple marriages and divorces behind me, staying unmarried is best for me and my peace of mind.”
“With this mindset, marriage feels like a trap, so it’s better for me not to be in one. I would probably work on it less than a relationship which I “choose” to stay in instead of being “obliged” to stay in, which marriage connotes to me.”
That’s why we agree on the question of how to build the relationship, and not on the focus on marriage. Unlike you I seek to commit to a life-long journey that will challenge me to push through my limits of love. Loving someone even when I disagree with him, loving someone even when I’m not turned on by him, loving someone even when old, disabled or sick. I’m aware of the challenge given all what I went through in my seven-year LTR. I’m now preparing myself rigorously for that challenge . And I’m rigorously assessing my boyfriend for that challenge as well.
Karmic @58: Not sure if you were thinking of me when you wrote “aversion to marriage”
I didn’t write “aversion to marriage,” but rather, “aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset.” Personally, I don’t really care if individuals are not interested in marriage for themselves… that’s fine. No one has to be married if they don’t want to and I don’t judge that one way or the other. It’s a choice. Based on your past experiences and your current desires, if your way works best for you, I can certainly respect that and it’s not at all my intention to change your mind about your own life.
I think the issue I’ve had — in general — is when women who were previously married (and perhaps a bit older than me) would dissuade me from marriage or from approaching dating with the intention of marriage because of their own not-so-great experiences with it. The most discouragement I received in my dating life came typically from women who were 10+ years older than me who would say that marriage was overrated and that my single life was worth envying and I should just stay that way.
The thing is, they were able to say that based on the fact that they had experienced marriage, and decided it was not for them. I say I should have the chance to make my own decisions on it and perhaps I’d have a different experience. Marriages are really about the two people in them, and since every marriage is comprised of different people, they’ll all unfold differently.
(Also, I did always see myself having children, so it was just totally counterproductive to be discouraged from pursuing marriage! The fact that I wanted children never seemed to be factored into the “just go with the flow” advice.)
Fusee @59: I agree with you that I probably could have been married earlier if that was the ONLY thing I wanted. There were certainly men who were interested in me and I could have pretended to be interested in them (or just focus on being “financially secure”), but I didn’t want to marry just for the sake of saying I was married! To me, that would have been the cold, businesslike approach that would rightfully raise a few eyebrows.
The dating period with my husband, however, was incredibly enjoyable and satisfying BECAUSE we were on the same page. With the security that we were exclusive to each other and committed to seeing if our relationship would potentially grow into marriage, we were able to be more intimate (physically and emotionally), vulnerable, sacrificial (in a good way), playful, happy, relaxed, etc… it was just such a refreshing feeling, I must say! People said they’d never seen me happier… same with my good friend!
A relationship can be exactly what you want it to be. Don’t be afraid to say what you want. Fear of intimacy could be fear of that feeling of being possessed or being controlled by guilt and expectations. But don’t underestimate companionship, of the only person you want to see….your best friend. But the most important thing is communication no matter what. Soon enough you will both be clear on whether or not “it works”.