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What is it that men get out of looking/gazing at beautiful women, nude or otherwise?
I have read on other websites that men actually get a chemical “high” in their brain when they see an attractive woman and that is why they are so drawn to look at other women even when they are in love with another. I’m wondering, from your perspective, what you think it is. Are men sexually “turned on” when they see a beautiful woman naked and automatically fantasize about having sex with her or is it more of just plain old admiration for the beautiful female form with no arousal? And, if it is sexual arousal, does that happen only in seeing a naked woman (magazine, strip joint, porn) or does that happen when you see a beautiful clothed woman as well? I have always been very curious about this as I think it is very different for women. —Cat
Dear Cat,
Thoughtful and provocative question, and I’m going to attempt to tackle it even though I’m no therapist, historian or biologist.
First off, I want to acknowledge that everything you wrote, in my estimation, is true.
Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
Men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.
Men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
Men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)
What I’d like to add to all of those ideas is that none of that should affect your relationship…unless you make it affect your relationship.
In other words:
GOOD men, regardless of relationship status, get a chemical high in seeing attractive women.
GOOD men can appreciate the female form, either clothed or naked.
GOOD men are aroused by images of clothed or naked women (but not as much as you’d think.)
Without covering the entire landscape of debates about DNA or evolution or propagation of the species, here’s my take on the whole thing:
Men, since the beginning of time, were designed to spread their seed.
Because monogamy lowers the chances that our genes will survive, men are not, by nature, monogamous creatures. We choose monogamy because we deem that it’s more beneficial to have love, stability, and a nuclear family than to have lots of children running around with our eyes. But make no mistake, monogamy is a choice, not a natural state.
Men can watch porn, fantasize about other women, and still be great husbands and fathers.
Anyway, in my estimation, the male sex drive has nothing to do with kindness or personality or compatibility. It is entirely based on physical attraction, which we feel instantly with the release of dopamine, serotonin, and testosterone. This is why men can know if they would sleep with you in less than five seconds.
As far as what’s physically attractive? I think it’s largely based on societal reinforcement. Most men, for example, agree that symmetrical faces with small noses and certain hip to waist ratios (thin waist, wider hips) are considered attractive. Naturally, there are some men who like older women or heavier women or women with one leg. There’s a lid for every pot. Still, a lot of men still want to try on the same lid, who just happens to be 20-30 years old, have stunning features and is built like a Barbie doll. Moving along…
Next, I’d like to assert that a man’s sexual tastes and feelings of attraction don’t disappear because he is in love with another woman.
His intense feelings for his girlfriend may lessen his desires to look elsewhere for sex. But once those intense feelings of chemistry go away (as they usually do after 18 to 36 months — just long enough to conceive and raise a young child), his attraction will still spike every time he sees an attractive woman, in some form or another.
The more self-aware men understand this intellectually, and relegate those spikes of attraction to what they are — biologically programmed bursts of pleasure. We give ourselves doses of this pleasure when we’re walking on a beach, when we’re at an outdoor concert, when we’re at parties, and especially when we’re on the Internet. I’ve heard that 30% of the internet is porn, and if this is the case, it should be no surprise.
Men crave variety. This is normal. It’s all about whether he acts on this desire.
Men can admit attraction to favorite celebrities, and still be great husbands and fathers.
Men can watch porn, fantasize about other women, and still be great husbands and fathers.
Men can go to a strip club during a bachelor party, and still be great husbands and fathers.
I know this because I’ve done all of the above (not regularly, but still) and I know I am not alone.
And since the value of my marriage is far greater than the value of sleeping with a stranger, I remain faithful, even though I’m attracted to other women everywhere I go. It would never even occur to me after 300 dates and nearly 17 years as a dating coach that there’s anyone out there who’d make me happier for the next forty years than my own wife.
That doesn’t mean in some alternate universe that I wouldn’t like to be able to have my cake and eat it, too. That’s essentially what certain men do — get married and keep sleeping with other women. We can probably make a list of many politicians, athletes and rock stars who fit this paradigm.
Men would be perfectly content having missionary sex with a new woman every night.
So why do men cheat?
Because they’re perpetually attracted to new women.
Because they’re high profile, rich, ambitious men who are desirable to these women.
Because they’re so important that they don’t think the rules apply to them.
Because they travel a lot and are frequently exposed to temptation.
Because they don’t value their wives as much as the thrill.
Because they have low integrity.
Because they’re unhappy in their marriages.
Because they don’t rationally calculate the value of their losses. The thrill of the affair temporarily overrides the devastation the affair will wreak on his family.
This is just a long, roundabout way of saying that, in general, men want variety.
I recall a study that said the exact same thing.
“For men, sexual boredom was correlated with variety in partners (or lack thereof), while for women, it was more related to variety in activity. In other words, women were more likely to be satisfied by changes in the sexual what, while men (gay or straight) were more likely to respond to a change in the sexual whom. It’s a simple, unavoidable truth almost everyone knows to be true, but few dare to discuss: variety and change are the necessary spice of the sex life of the male of our species.”
The results didn’t surprise me in the least.
Once again, I am not defending men. I am explaining men. Not every single man on the planet. Some men only have eyes for their wives. Some men are attracted to other men. Some men couldn’t conceive of having sex with a woman they didn’t love.
These are perfectly normal men, but they are also exceptions.
So even if we establish that men are driven by sex, it’s far from the whole story, as evidenced by the 50 million married men in the United States.
Simply put, men want love, too. Even if we still like to look elsewhere.
It’s far better to understand and accept these qualities in men than to shame them, insult them, or tell them that they’re wrong for being this way.
As long as he treats you well and doesn’t take action on his desires, you’ve got a good man whose desire for you is stronger than his real sexual impulse to be with someone else.
I have to say, this was a major growing up point for me, when I read Manslations by Jeff Mac, and looked at the evidence, and realised that, yes indeed, most men are on some level sexually attracted to most attractive women. Even the devoted man by my side.
It actually was a liberating realisation for me. It meant that, no, I don’t have to worry about that attractive busty blonde at the party, because she doesn’t mean any more to him than the tall, willowy brunette with the short skirt. Other attractive women are a fact of life, might as well get used to it.
Now that I know this, actually, how men’s minds work, I am vastly grateful and smile warmly to myself every time there’s a gorgeous woman around, or on television, and he keeps his thoughts to himself for my sake 🙂
And the key comment in your post is “smile warmly to myself every time there’s a gorgeous woman around, or on television, and he keeps his thoughts to himself for my sake ” my problem is when your husband TELLS you anytime he sees a hot woman……….” wow! wonder what it would be like to have sex with THAT!” Or how about this one…”God, HER boyfriend is a lucky s.o.b” or “Wow, that a great pair of tits..wish I could see her nipples better! Get the picture. Advice to me…look at women all you want – fantazie about having them sex with them – be the jerk you are but YOU DONT HAVE TO TELL YOU WIFE YOUR EVERY SHITTY THOUGHT. It is disrespectful and devalues her as your wife. You can bet this gal wouldnt get married again for all the tea in China!
Laura, I was married to someone like you shared; extremely hurtful! I left him and eventually married a guy that said my ex was a pig (knew him well) and treated me like a queen until the day he died 28 years later. My ex & I have a daughter and he told her that he regrets losing me and knows he was a fool. The funny thing is that we are OK with each other today, he is married to a great lady and I just recently got married to another guy that calls me “my queen”. The moral of the story is: there are tell-tale signs, watch for them while dating, whether he is a pig or a keeper—-heed them.
Raj so well said , a man who has wandering eyes is a disgusting man. He makes it look like women and sex and having a good f is everything. I disagree Evans thought, such a man is still a good man. I noted on dates , my man had wandering eyes to such an extent when having dinner out , he d ignore me the whole time and his eyes glued to a particular woman he found attractive . Thinking I could change this bad habit after I marry him and be the best lover for him he d give up on this habit. It worsened after marriage. Going out with him was very difficult . He d than come home and remark about my body not being good enough , my breasts not perfect ,my hair not right shade and length and texture . He even went to extent of telling me how he d love my body ,hair ,breasts to be after seeing other women. I was just not good enough. Evan is absolutely wrong in his observation ( he is man so yeah dhu ) . Wandering eyes leads to dirty thoughts leads to dirty wishful thinking, leads to demeaning his wife ,leads to pressuring the wife for a threesome ( which when wife refuses ) than eventually leads to cheating which in the end causes annulment of the marriage . So men with wandering eyes, don’t get married ,if ever you feel like you wish you had this or that woman , Save Hurting an innocent woman and being sexually abusive to her in bed . There are whores who can please you in bed ! Don’t use your woman as your bed Warmer and means to live your dirty fantasies just because she is your wife ! I realized I needed to be respected and deserve to be with a man who when we go anywhere be it dine out , walk to parks/beaches, I am made to feel special around him and with him. That he shows the world and to the other women around him that he is proud and happy to have me !i finally called it quits cause I couldn’t live up to his dirty fantasies and sex addiction too and to live in fear if I don’t oblige to his sexual needs , he will have a one night stand or affair with the woman he got attracted to because of his wandering eyes .
Great point and one which I’m currently pondering. Is he a keeper or a cheater. He keeps his comments to himself, I have no jealousy of her with him, I just can’t seem to get over the fact that he will find a reason to look again and again. That part just bugs me at some level, and I cannot put my finger on it. I know I’m beautiful, and have a great body, lots to offer. It isn’t insecurity, it is that little nagging feeling that doesn’t go away. And his denail that it is happening. You see I know ( or think I know- huge assumption) that Evan could talk to his wife calmly if she had a weird feeling about it…. my guy gets upset and storms out. Even when I hadn’t said or finished my sentence. I have never shamed or said it was wrong. I’m feeling very odd now, especially at not even 1 year yet.
If you are not his queen and he doesn’t love you as you are then he’s not worthy of your time and effort
What signs should I look at , I think it’s disrespectful to constantly turn their head to look at another ass , makes me feel like I’m not enough and the ones he really looks at are the big heVey ones and I’m small and pittet and he just says I’m crazy and psyco cuz he not looking at them when I vleDly see him doing it , makes me think he isn’t done with other woman and if he would do that while in my face what will he do behind my back , I’m not a jelous person I just want a man that’s satisfied withe and other woman can’t turn their head but I believe if they can turn those heads it’s a want so eventually he will act on it
Try smiling warmly at a handsome young guy at a party or drop a comment or 2 about the gorgeous guy next to the wonan he is commenting on. See how quickly his attention turns back to you. Worked for me :). Actually I don’t even notice now when my husband is looking at other women. I’m too busy checking out the other guys.
Dutchie i couldn’t have said it better. And it is so true, they disrespect in front of us but get twisted like pretzel when we do And mean our stare at a hot guy. Truth be told women are so much more exploited and in every ad or half dressed on any occasion in any tv, movie etc. so it is hard for them not to look or like . i suppose if we had the upper hand we would make them feel the same shitty way. There just isn’t enough hot guys that we are exposed to, apparently women sell the products better.it’s just that I don’t stare at every guy, which makes him more mad, if I turn my head because then he Knows I think he’s worth looking at. It’s all good they aren’t the only men on earth and we also have a pair of eyes😉
My issue in this circumstance is that I’m one of the few that doesn’t find other men attractive now that I’m in a relationship with my tall, handsome, athletic nerd. At the beginning of our relationship he used to remark on all the women he found were attractive and the usual statement that would follow was “she has big boobs” or “she has great tits”. I communicated with him how that made me feel and sometimes he still points it out in TV shows. But I find that I’m less hurt when I can identify with the character in the show, as if she was the film version of myself. He continually reminds me that they only look the way they do because of the lights and the touch ups that they have to have done. So I guess the lesson I’ve learned is to communicate and if he’s sincere about not hurting your feeling or demeaning you he’ll often make excuses for why they look so good. While still complimenting on how amazing you look, even when you think you look like shit. I was wearing the same leggings and shirt that I often wear and my hair was unbrushed and he said I looked “pretty”.
Dutchie, that is AWESOME. I’m gonna try this 🙂
I used to do that until he turn the table around pretending he doesn’t look at other women. I told him if he stop, then I will stop. Now he does it behind my back.
Yes I like everything you ssaid is are true give him a piece of his meds instead of getting mad
Pak! You nailed it girl.
Yeah instead be busy of checking other guy too.
How far do you think your relationship will go if both of you will do that?
Two wrongs don’t make a right..tit for tat isn’t the way to go.you’re just fooling yourself..
Lol. The article above may be true to an extent but I think it leaves out the point that Dutchie made. Women love to think about other men! The difference: We don’t JUST think about sex. We think about the whole package! Women tend to be more respectful about looks or thoughts about other men when we see them (and are also with our partner). My feeling is that we know that our (women’s) thoughts about men are even more dangerous to the sanctity of the relationship than a man’s thoughts about other women. We don’t let our thoughts run away with us unless we don’t value our current relationship. Same as males in that way, but more cautious. Dogs versus cats.
:thumbs up:
and women… do the same 🙂
Exactly! It’s disrespectful and hurts. Makes a person feel like they are not good enough or just good enough for now until the next opportunity presents itself.
I agree
I agree with Laura. Our society is in a very UNHEALTHY state when surveys reveal that virtually all men regularly look a PORN sites and just write it off as “totally acceptable” behavior for men. I’m sure these sites are probably the most DEGRADING and VILE scenes of women completely disrespecting themselves. Then we wonder why men disrespect their wives and girlfriends in such a way by gawking and making disgusting comments about other women. It’s just plain LOW CLASS and we live in a LOW CLASS SOCIETY, so please don’t sugar coat it as “men being men”. That’s PATHETIC RATIONALIZATION for men to continue to treat women poorly and add more momentum to a society of vile, low class immoral men.
Jane,
I am a man, I agree with your statement we are in a LOW CLASS SOCIETY.
However let me ask you few questions.
1) A male is programmed to get attracted to a female, most likely to a beautiful girl.. the beauty is defined by physical attributes. And he gets attracted to all beautiful girls, and due to situations he gets committed to a girl, commitment could be marriage or something else based on society.
My question is how this programmed basic instinct of the guy gets dead and sleeps when he sees some other passing by girl who physically is more attractive than the one to whom he is committed ?
I am not talking about he should have sex with other beautiful girl, I am not recommending or appreciating it. I am talking about his thoughts provoked by his basic instinct.
He could stop his sexual thinking further, but how do you prevent the thought itself?
And your way of thinking seems to be like since I got committed with him I only should be the most beautiful girl in his mind… but in reality is it possible? and for you is your guy most handsome than the ones you see on TV/Theater screen?
2) Society defined the program called “Marriage” to benefit women and kids, and possibly men also. But the same Society is allowing Movies/TVs to expose women as a beautiful object by wearing shorts.. and with romantic scenes… by nature Man is attracted to women and he easily gets aroused visually by seeing all those exposed women.
Why the same Society allowing this exposing of women beauty through media kill the brains of men?
Most men would just fantasize however they may not take any real action and still value your relationship. They take the responsibility of family and kids.
That’s what should be important to you and not their every thought…
And I definitely agree with your emotions when he really takes a real action of having sex with other women. Indeed it will be a cheating in our Society programmed commitment called Marriage.
Perhaps god/nature might have designed a Man to have his sex desire only until he gets 3 or 4 kids…
Then you might not be having a chance to say men as ‘immoral men’.
Beautifully put. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m glad I’m not alone having this same opinion. I was being called psycho and needing therapy for not trusting my then partner, until he got caught entertaining himself with vile images and videos of despicable women. Followed by crocodile tears, asking forgiveness.
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!I just wanna scream of how disgusted I am as well… well SAID!!!
Couldn’t have put it in better words.
Jane, I know the stats on porn, it has no positives, except to get an erection. It is damaging, it is as addictive as heroine and harder to get off of. It creates distance, disregarding to women, and doesn’t even fire the right part of the brain. It fires the part of the brain addiction does, like gambling.
What Evan said is true and yet untrue. From a psychological perspective Men can grow themselves up and be more evolved than that, understand it, instead of just ” acting on ” the default and calling it ” I’m just a man” and women have to accept it.
Porn is damaging our society at a rapid rate, 30% of online internet searches is for Porn, that is a sad, sad state.
I’ve talked to a few men that have done the research, instisted in knowing the truth about porn, and decided to grow past that caveman type mentality. They are very very rare.
We can justify it all we want, and yet that same thing is going to keep us from growing as a society. Men can also be addicted to the high they get from looking at women.
By the way women need variety too! I don’t know where the stats on that are from. As a woman I can at times have a sexual variety thing go on. I just have better things to do with my mind though. I know it isn’t going anywhere when I’m in a mongamous relationship so why bother.
What is happening now is reality, this is where men have evolved to, regretfully, but so. They still need to use the variety and visual aspect of them as a reason to do these things. They could choose to not. Simple! Unless they just want to do it, and call it being a man.
I’m not a man basher, I happen to love men, think they are amazing! Often time more so than women. I still know these facts to be true.
I would say that in this case Evan is right this is where it is now and good men can still do these things. So we as women have to decide if we can accept it for now, b/c this is where the majority of men are now. Or be single. Evan happens to be one of the Dating coaches that I admire for his total honesty, to his wife and to the public.
When they can sit with their woman while looking at a hot built man and still feel good about it, then it is even.
If he cannot, then it is a double standard. <3 <3
You are 100% right Jane! It’s that our society has taught men it is acceptable, and taught women that we are to just get used to it. Our society exploits women and that’s why men are the way they are. It is unacceptable, and us women need to stand together as one to change it. We should never feel like we’re not good enough, it’s not like men are exploited. Maybe we should turn the tables and see what happens to our society then? Let’s just say we live in a sad world, and apparently this writer has no recognition of what porn addiction is, and/or does to the individual consuming it, or the victims spouse. Porn addiction causes real problems by changing the chemical balances in the brain of the user, which causes a pyramid of health issues, including erectile dysfunction. And it’s the women who get the lousy lover in bed, because the man has porked his own sausage for too long, causing it to shrivel up to nothing. Young men should be informed in school during health class, so they may one day actually have real sex with real people instead of their hand.
This is exactly how I feel. I am happy someone out there doesn’t buy the lame excuse “men being men”. You made my night just reading your comment. It feels great to know that I am not the only person that feels that way.
Lisa is spot on with reference to porn. I do think that most men can view porn on occasion and be fine. But many men have huge issues with it when it comes to sex with a real woman. The number of men under the age of 30 suffering from porn induced ED is ever growing. Many like my fiancé are unable to ejaculate with a partner after years of masturbating to porn. And it’s because of this mentality that all men do this and it’s normal, that many men don’t get help or even relate their issues to porn use. By the time they do they have usually lost several relationships to it. I’m not sure if EMK has written on this but I highly recommend “your brain on porn,” the TED talk it’s on YouTube. The problem with the porn of today is that it gives you that variety in an instant hit and a huge hit of dopamine that real sex can never replicate particularly the same old partner. It’s totally different than checking a woman out at the mall or fantasizing about your coworker. I don’t think we can ignore this and I think the boys will be boys mentality is keeping these issues from being brought to light. I would say porn is okay unless it effects your relationship with actual women. But the problem with that is most men won’t make that connection.
Well said
Thank you
I like Jane’s comment. I’ve been wondering if men were as openly and casually lewd, especially when in “polite” company, before the advertising world took such liberties in exploiting female bodies. That, plus a tearing down of Judeo-Christian morals, creates a new world where sex all the time, all kinds of sex, is the new norm. And women are supposed to be put out objects all the time too. Was it like this at the turn of the twentieth century, or earlier? It doesn’t seen so, from the literature of that time.
Men were like this. There were just not as many avenues for visual stimulation in a pre internet society.
Similarly, women have always been interested in sex, but online dating apps have certainly made it easier for women to procure more of it than they did 100 years ago. I wouldn’t shame women for taking advantage of the endless number of men at their disposal. Nor do I blame them for constantly trying to trade up and find men who are taller, richer, cuter, funnier or more educated than they could when they lived in a small town and married their high school boyfriend in 1947. Does this hurt average men? You bet. A 5’9” man with a 110 IQ and a 50k job has a hard time getting your attention… but that’s the way thing are. Do you think we should restrict women from scrolling thru men and eliminating them because of superficial qualities? I don’t.
I totally agree
I couldn’t have said it better, Jane! I am so relieved that so many other women feel as I do…I thought I was a freak or something! I am so sick and tired of reading articles about why women need to understand that men weren’t made to be monogamous, that them viewing porn, disgusting websites, gawking at another woman, etc., is harmless and we should just accept it. I tried doing that when in relationships but I was only lying to myself that it didn’t hurt and upset me. Well I am no longer going to put up with it, I’d rather be single the rest of my life than put up with that type of man.
I completely agree! Men are to honor their wives. And cheating starts in the thought life of a man. And from God’s word any type of cheating is NOT love. Love goes beyond a warm fuzzy feeling. Love is NOT sex. Clearly relationships won’t last if they are built on sex and how many positions you can do to make your man accept you. Love is unconditional. That means putting another BEFORE yourself. Something that we see very little of. It’s a choice to look, a choice to have zero self control, a choice to abuse someone emotionally by constantly looking, a choice to show that if a man chooses to lack self control then he also lacks empathy for another human being. We are to guard our hearts for it is the wellspring of life. Out of the mouth is what’s in the heart and mind of a soul. Any man who wants to watch porn, gaze on every woman, masturbate to porn or his own vile thoughts, use his wife as a hole to get off on his vile thoughts is NOT A MAN AT ALL! Nothing unique about him. Nothing worth giving your heart to. He’s just a self absorbed and insecure little boy with no integrity or moral standards.
Reading this makes me sick. I’ve been cheated on, lied to, years of my life taken from me, all because “men naturally want variety”. It makes me want to get out of this new relationship and never try to love again
I am sick and tired of this same thing. All the men in my life have always looked at someone else and the men the same women were with would stare at me.. You know if this is all that is out there..I want to be alone. Men head issues get old already. Seriously. Who needs this. God gives us to someone and they need to be noticed and wowed to? LOL..ok but without me. 🙂
I can relate to you !!You are so right. I’m leaving my POS as soon as my son leaves in the next 4-6 weeks.
I’m so sorry for you, your post almost made me cry in its simplicity. Me too. So many, many years of being lied to about it all. It’s devastating.
Run, fast as you can in the opposite direction, if you have a man like this, all they cause is decades of pain. I have always suspected during my 41 years of marriage that I had a man like this, but recently he finally admitted that he thinks all women should be naked!!! WTF! Really! But that’s all he will admit. I asked him why. He says I dunno! It doesn’t do anything for me! OMG, IT DOESN’T DO ANYTHING FOR HIM!!! But he thinks all women should be naked. I say where is my damn time machine because if I can’t find it I just spent and wasted over 4 decades with a friggin 13 year old!!! So you young gals out there do not put up with it no matter what just run!!!
I just left my partner of 5 years for the same behaviour Laura. He couldn’t see an attractive woman on TV, walking down the street, in a bar etc. without commenting, leering & sometimes flirting right in front of me; it completely shattered my confidence and self esteem. If I meet another man just one hint of this kind of behaviour would see me run a mile. I would never put up with a man being so disrespectful to me ever again.
Good. If enough women start leaving men who act like pigs, they might start to shape up. Maybe this can included in the #MeToo movement, and get savvy men talking about the new hip thing: honoring women they are with (and those on the street too: I don’t like being stared at when the man is with another woman, just as when the one I am with stares at her.)
Let’s find this guys significant other, take her(oh wait, -maybe it’s a him) and go gawk at all the much larger penis sizes than he has. Oh yeah, and those 2 things that should danglw below- that he DOESN’T have.
This is a poor excuse- to be a miserable man. An excuse to let that small tiny penis to do his thinkibg because obviously his brain is down there.
It is pure bullshit.
Im sorry to hear that he says that to you! I loved her comment to. I have to say, if my husband said something about other women everytime it sounds disrespectful more then him just being a man. My boyfriend looks at other women, and I awknowlege after a long time that its who men are, and what they do. We both point out attractive people and can be honest with eachother, but hes never been disgusting about it. Its still hard to watch his eye wonder, jeeze women and men are made so differently, completly opposite!
And u still with him? Dump that c**nt now, but before that admire his best friends front pack and how u would love this to slide into you
Oh my goodness, Laura, you, under these circumstances, would be with the wrong man. I’m a retired psychotherapist. I have seen it over and over…..
You know what advice I might give a young woman now…? To go for the geeks/those that love their mothers…always, always KNOW a man’s background in dating and love…before dating him or if you’ve dated a bit and both of you are interested. Most people spend more time buying a television, car, house or..you get the picture….than they spend on choosing a life-long mate. It’s not such a mystery…patterns are predictors of future behavior. Know them. Don’t date the wrong guy, having done the research and found him to not be what you would want for the long term for YOURSELF…b/c we can fall in love with the wrong guy doing this. We’re all grown ups…know your material and WHAT YOU ABSOLUTELY want for yourself. Some women even ask God for His choice in a man for you. THEN THEY HAVE THE FAITH OF A MUSTARD SEED, AT LEAST, AND LET IT GO. If you’re not a Believer…just do the work and cover your own ass…it’s about the rest of your life, kiddo.
I had married the geek. Wrong! He must have been a porn addict from what I have experienced for the last 27 years. I ran some searches on my husband’s private email and cell phone yesterday and feel 100% sure that the email they searched was correct. My husband is view cams, etc of young teens that appear to be 14 years old. The site said that they were 18 but I don’t believe these girls were 18. When is an 18 year old considered a young teen? He even had a comment that her perky tits were for jerking off. I am planning to leave this man because the porn has changed him since I married him. I need to be free of him ASAP. I’ve found he has had passwords on parts of his cell phone and laptop. Sexless marriage for 16 years now and when I look at him, I want to vomit. He told me that he was not attracted to me at all. He obviously wants no relationship with a wife. No touching, kissing etc due to this porn issue years ago. We have already had counseling and he has always denied it but I have seen stuff. Two times I went out of town on business trips and there were pages and pages of history after I had returned. We had just purchased the computer years ago. There is no fixing these people and if you think it will get better, it won’t. Your life will only get worse and you will be robbed of a life, your soul and everything you stand for. Then after these men get older – Mine will be 70, they will tell you they are going to kill themselves every time you mention it. So, last week I told mine to go ahead.
@Deborah. Your post made me sick. Leave this man. He’s sick! I understand that as PEOPLE, not just men, we are all attracted to the opposite sex. But porn, and strip clubs? As a woman, I couldn’t imagine my husband being in a strip club. Porn , been down that road too. It’s just to easy to come by, and it has ruined so many marriages, and relationships. we constantly hear about what men want, about how they can’t help how they are wired, but what about women? Do you know how this makes a woman feel? Man have no clue the pressure that women face on a daily basis. We are constantly scrutinized for every flaw we have, whether it be our bodies changing after having children, getting older. We are made to feel that we constantly are inadequate. Imagine being 45, and having had children, and how a woman feels that her husband is looking at 18-year-olds in porn? It’s so unbelievably hurtful. It literally devastated my self esteem when my first husband did that to me. I am an attractive woman, I’ll take care of myself, I am sexual, but my husbands porn usage left me feeling like an utter failure. It got to the point that looking at him made me sick, and I could never be sexual with him ever again. I was repulsed. And it’s not just me many other women feel the same way. It’s fine if you look at other people, no one expects a married man or woman to never find another human being attractive, that’s just ludicrous. But pornography and strip clubs in a marriage, no absolutely not. And furthermore, marriage is not taken seriously anymore by most men. And I see no point in women even getting married.
@Lori B,
It goes both ways. Look at Jay Cutler, and Kristen Cavallari. She turns my stomach. She’s not a 10, and yet she threw away a good man. Why? because he wasn’t ambitious enough for her anymore. She had a man that most women would give anything to have, and it wasn’t good enough for her. She’s going to find that the grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence. She’s going to learn the hard way that her SMV is nowhere near what it was, when her SMV allowed her to get the starting QB of an NFL team. Not even close!
Never mind that the man was loving and devoted to her. Never mind that he was a good dad who loves his kids, and wanted to spend time with them. Never mind that he played one of the most brutal sports in the world, for decades, and earned his early retirement, if that’s what he wanted. His career, and their reality show put them in the top 1%, but none of that was good enough for her.
She’s a cautionary tale to any man thinking about getting married. The red pill community of YouTubers is getting a lot of mileage out of this story.
As for the porn, etc., that is a symptom of a society that has determined that sex is nothing more than a recreational activity. Being a slut is now synonymous with female empowerment…literally. A woman is said to be empowered, taking control of her own sex life, pursuing pleasure as she desires. Sheesh…use Google…there are literally articles out there…even on CNN of all places, celebrating the cuckold lifestyle.
Well, you can’t expect men to act like Puritans in a cesspool of “empowered” sluts. The way most men see it is that it’s like riding a roller coaster. An artificial thrill ride. Not real…so they see no harm in it. Is there harm in it? Is there harm in everything about our loose morals society? Do women share some of the blame? Or is this just a time to rant about female insecurities and hate on men? And what do men get as a reward for being one of the good guys? Well, ask Mr. Cutler.
When you judge men harshly, keep in mind something Joe Rogan said, when talking to another high powered man on his podcast. He said, “Most men live lives of quiet desperation.” Many men are using porn as an escape from that. Right or wrong, that’s the simple truth.
What’s worse? Men who fantasize of being able to have a girl out of his league? Or, women who sleep with men out of her league, and as a result, can never truly, properly bond with a man that’s one of her peers on the SMV scale? The vast majority of women fall into that category, due to men being willing to sleep with women well below their station, just for the sex.
Kudos to u! Men need to learn self control!
My thoughts EXACTLY!
I agree with you Laura. That is disrespectful. In fact the thoughts are disrespectful as well. Only if men could be aware of thism
Thoughts are disrespectful? Good luck living life policing people’s minds.
Yeah, know the feeling! Been married for 30 yrs, 2 sons, and I love them with all my heart! But I would never, ever marry again just because of this! Everywhere we go, hubby’s always looking, billboards, magazine covers, the real thing, and it makes me sick! I wonder why God made men this way? I guess so we can feel bad about ourselves and know that we’ll never be enough! But it really does make me sick!
Agreed. Its like we have no heart . Worst is when holding hands and going to same shop and looking at women and denies looking. Look all the fuck you want but do it on your own right? I told my bf , its ok to look. But dont get too obsessive when another man looks at your girl. Imagine what the other woman thinks, ” oh you have gf n looking at me you fool, who will you look at if i become your gf, duh.
As a woman i am constantly looking at handsome swedish boys and come to the realisation that looks are more important than a good man. Men are so ugly i just want to be around handsome scandinavian boys all the time. So its not only men, women drool at boys too. Plus who are all these ugly men to even look at pretty women? As if they would ever sleep with these ugly men.
very beautifully said, Claire ^^
Yes!
All the way up until he cheats on you. Too much smoke is hiding a fire.
My husband promised to stop many times, so I am divorcing him.
No Sorry. Not good enough. Other women other women’s bodies are not their business. Oogling women is a bad habit. Men have objectified women for their sexual fantasy. How about look at our mind heart and soul instead of our breast vagina and ass. It is disrespectful of not only the women they stare at for their disrespectful needs but the woman they are with. We do not walk on all fours anymore. They are not cavemen. To excuse bad behavior is just that an excuse for bad behavior.
Appreciating physical aesthetics and respecting someone is not mutually exclusive. You can appreciate someone’s looks, the entire sculpture art is dedicated to that. Yet you can still acknowledge that they have their needs and not disturb them. It’s very likely that you harbor various fantasies, as long as you don’t push them on anyone else against their will it’s okay.
This was lifesaving for me. I’ve spent the last couple weeks in sheer depression, body shaming myself (and I think I am a fairly attractive woman) because I found my fiance, whom we have three beautiful daughters together, looking at naked pictures online more than I’d like to have known. I am not sure still if there’s a fine line between a problem and a natural instinct, but this has saved my relationship and even completely eye-opening.
No sorry. Don’t buy it. Because he is a man. No excuse for objectifying women then using the alpha man BS makes it okay to disrespect women. Plus who you are in a relationship with. Men are not monkeys. We have evolved. Get over yourself. I have been a women long enough to be with plenty of men. I find the ones who OOGLE WOMEN are weak. They have Dr valued who we are and what we are about. The make excuses for looking at us with their particular weekends and blame it on because they are a man. Whatever. Next time your in a restaraunt oogling a women who is trying to eat a sandwich don’t. We hate it. Grow up. Period. No excuses for your bad behavior.
The word is ogle.
Evan thank you for correcting Debra! I wouldn’t have known what she was talking about……xo
Evan, thank you for your honesty, I respectfully disagree though. Men seeking sexual variety (visually or physically) whilst in a committed relationship is very different to SINGLE women seeking a hot, rich, tall man on a dating site (in response to your comment above that I was unable to reply to).
I think it’s a cop out to give men permission to sexually satisfy themselves over a variety of women who are not their wife (“because they are biologically designed that way”).
BTW Who said they are biologically designed this way? Where is the “scientific” evidence that men desire variety more than women?
I’ll tell you what this is, it’s called CONDITIONING. Keep telling men they are designed that way and they will a) believe it and b) be it. This has been the problem for generations.
It’s also CONDITIONING that so many women are accepting it. They are also being told it’s normal. Some might put up with it but I can assure you MOST would not choose for their partner to desire other women.
I can assure you of this… if we were to target a new generation (say all children born in 2021), we put them on a deserted island and raised them with the only belief that females are biologically designed to seek a variety of hot men for sexual satisfaction… and men are designed to be happy with one woman. Guess what? They would believe it and those beliefs would become the new reality.
Men are just as capable of resisting temptation for “variety” as women are.
I am a woman. I love admiring hot men, fantasising about having sex with a hot man, watching porn etc. Most women I know are the same.
BUT if I’m in a relationship, I don’t. I just don’t. It’s called loyalty, commitment and basic respect to/for my partner of whom I’ve exclusively committed myself to. It’s called resisting my temptation to sexually satisfy myself over other men because I’m in a relationship. Why would I allow myself to desire a “variety” of hot men when I chose to commit myself to ONE man?
Evan where do you draw the line (which point below is deemed as cheating in your opinion):
Ok so if a man in a “committed” relationship sexually satisfies himself by watching a variety of naked women on TV, to you this is not cheating. Understood.
So, that same man was to jerk off to a sexy naked woman in his house (she’s there right in front of him but he doesn’t touch her, he just watches her and jerks off). Is that cheating? If yes, why is it any different? He’s still sexually satisfying himself over another woman who is not his wife. If you don’t think that’s cheating either, then why not? Does a man need to physically touch the woman for it to be classed as cheating?
I have a friend who is married to a man who goes to a strip club every week to get turned on over a variety of naked women, he has conditioned her to believe “it’s just the way men are”. She allows it. She also hurts over it but feels she has to be strong because “it’s normal, it’s just the way men are”.
I counsel individuals. Some are women who can’t have relationships with men anymore, or have turned lesbian, some have even sadly committed suicide because of this very topic. This terrible idea that they need to be comfortable with their male partner seeking sexual satisfaction over other women (while it hurts them).
Evan, you are in a good position to educate people better. I urge you to consider what I’ve said please. To say men can’t help this kind of behaviour is the reason why men are conditioned to think it’s ok. I encourage you to please stop teaching false facts based on unhealthy and old fashioned “belief systems”.
Please . No one has to accept disrespect and that’s exactly what it is
Truth
Why are so many women invested in the idea that women aren’t visually stimulated? I love seeing attractive men with nice bodies. It doesn’t have anything to do with whatever man I might be with, nor would it make me cheat. And I think that if it turns on your partner before he comes to bed with you, or if you watch it together and get ideas all the better.
I’m really annoyed that we keep acting as though women are these overly emotional creatures whose delicate female eyes don’t respond to dirty, dirty porn (or at least romantic real sex) and nicely built/hung nake male bodies. I’m pretty pissed off that the new movie Magic Mike does not have male nudity. All of those perfect bodies and no one goes full monty. What is up with that? I actually got to a strip show where the men, who were really attractive and really well-endowed, took it all off, and I’d be the biggest lying liar from Lying-ham if I said that it didn’t turn me on. I think every woman in that room (ranging in age from 21 to elderly) was turned on by what their eyes saw. I’ve never gone to a strip show again b/c in most places, men can’t go full monty (and it’s a big load of crap and a waste of time).
We might be conditioned to say it’s bad, and that the women are exploited (even though female porn stars make more money than their male counterparts), but a lot of that is socialization. Women aren’t supposed to like looking at dirty pictures and dirty movies and they like to label everyone who does as being a pervert and a cheater.
I found this article and the fact that women and men have the same physiological response to these images is not a surprise. Nor is it a surprise to think that women will either deny it or insist that it is indicative of negative pathology.
I THINK (thanks to a male friend and a documentary that I saw) that that there IS more female produced porn that is more about the romance and the idea that women should be pleasured and less “wham/bam” than what turns a lot of women off.
But I’ll be the first to say…I’m a woman, I have eyes, and my eyes like seeing attractive men and no they will not fall out at the sight of an attractive man who is working hard to please a woman. TMI but the internet makes me okay admitting it, and I have other friends who totally agree.
There is stuff that turns men on, and stuff that turns women on, but I think a lot of it is more production value and story line and less that women dont’ have eyes and don’t like to see it. We just like to see it played out differently. But some men like that more romance oriented porn too.
Now clearly, there is stuff that is and should be illegal. But legal adults have legal, consensual sex that is filmed is not the problem, and it’s not a sign of some mental defect if you like seeing it sometimes (which isn’t the same as the people who can’t leave their computer and get fired from work b/c they can’t stop looking for even a few minutes).
@Nicole — you sound much like my wife, and these are some of the major reasons why our marriage is hotter now than it was 25 years ago when we started. She understands men in a way that’s unusual, and I think I understand women pretty well (for a man 🙂 This allows us to meet in a middle ground of understanding, and not judge or criticize each other for what we know to be our basic nature. We respect and trust each other, which means we admire but don’t stare obviously or make comments we know would be uncomfortable or hurtful to each other. This seems like basic stuff to us, but unfortunately there are many relationships where this is difficult or impossible. That’s the part that makes *me* sad (@Sophia)
Dbut what if your husbands basically always nice to your face..i always have been confident and trusted my husband been marroed 25 years.but just recently found out he was going to strip clubs for 10 yeats weely..which i thought was only a few times…found out..be it years ago..also got girls numbers ..and recently found text to guy friends you know talkimg smack about a girl he saw..i have to say also he is a fumctioning alcholoic and durning our whole marriage was always out drinking..now that i know how he really was. I think if hes going out looking to be sexually charged on a regular basis. Then as time goes on meeting women in bars he set him self up to be unfaithful. He swears he never was. But them agin his definition of unfaithful os different from mine and he knew how i felt..i was always disscusted..so he hid it and lied instead
I also really hate the wiew on woman about we are not visual. Like from the age of 10 I was spying on naked man and I love it. I love good looking naked hunks. I feel no any diffrent like man when comes to sex. And I do masturbate to naked man photos and porn general, but not addicted to it. The dick stick is very handsome to me and I have no any problem to be arosed by it.
Hi, I Do not agree with this last post one bit. I personally don’t like the male mind and find it insulting. I constantly feel not good enough when the person I am with looks at other women. I wish I looked like the woman he looks at. If I wasn’t pregnant I would Never be with another man EVER. Esp after my 12 year marriage to a womanizer where his innocent acts of looking at other women and porn lead to cheating. I always show respect and never even look at a man who may have nice facial features etc… who the F cares… their penises are all the same and their minds are all gross. I’ve worked in the bar industry for about 10 years and the things i’ve seen …. I think good on the girls/ strippers or even servers who work it because Men are stupid enough to give them their money hahaha No I have no respect for men because if you cant control your thoughts in your own personal space (your head) Im gonna work it to get that cash o la and I did. And all the strippers and bar maids I know would never be in a serious relationship cause we all know the truth… YUCK. I stick with my sistas.
@Caryn:
“Their penises are all the same and their minds are all gross”
“I have no respect for men because if you cant control your thoughts in your own personal space (your head) Im gonna work it to get that cash o la and I did””
“I stick with my sistas.”
On behalf of all men, thank you.
I do think that it’s unfair and quite a bunch of crock that men are like this and we women have to just be understanding of it because why? He’s a man… No
Just like the fact that men made the choice of choosing monogamous relationships over having multiple women throughout the years…because of the consequences of the latter and benefits of the former. The same way they can taper their wild “fantasies and thoughts” of other women every where they go. It’s just disgusting… We women have to put up with soooo much from men and society in this day and age it’s amazing. To know I am trying my best at my career and as being a mother and wife, it’s pathetic to know he’s out there having fantasies of other women in his head. What if we women had constant fantasies of other men in our head? We’d be considered whores and such. No one is saying the occasional glance is forbidden but c’mon now!
That’s a very unkind thing to say. Do you believe in inequality? She is rebelling about the fact that men seem to be able to do whatever they want, treat women like garbage and have an excuse. But women can’t? Nonsense.
Evan, it’s hard to blame someone for such derogatory words when they work in a strip club. Let’s face it, she’s seeing the worst of men in regards to women. It’s hard not to be cynical about them.
Re porn. I watched the TED Talk YOUR BRAIN ON PORN and found it extremely enlightening. This is my 3rd marriage and as far as I know, I’ve never been cheated on. But we both know that doesn’t mean it never happened.
I understand how men think, I’m accepting of it and the behaviors that accompany. I will say this, porn is never good in a relationship if it’s happening more than the actual sex. I’ve seen and heard of far too many marriages ending because of this. So, what is it that men obsess over? I find it hard to believe that a little shot of dopamine is the reward. And at what point does the porn watching turn into actual cheating? It reminds me of something I heard many years ago about threesomes… don’t bring another party into your relationship. Just because porn isn’t a person doesn’t mean you are honoring your relationship or being respectful towards your partner.
Our 10 year wedding anniversary is less than a month away. My husbands innocent acts of looking lead to addictive porn use and he has become the creepy guy who checks out EVERY woman, even while driving he has to look inside EVERY car to see if there is a female in it. Our marriage is on the line and I’m just saying this is not innocent. It leads to addiction from the “high” and they litterly f up their brain.. it is not reversible once they come to the addictive stage… sex attics, look it up.
Honestly, if most women knew the truth from the beginning, they might never ever get married. If you are the kind of woman that men claim that they want (sexually selective, clean, modest despite being gorgeous, devoted, hardworking, not into hypergamy, and take good care of your body), at best, you will eventually be “loved” (in an agape way and not an erotic way after infatuation wears off), as an incubator to make babies and a cash machine to pay half the bills. Whores are respected more than “Madonnas” any day of the week. In fact, the whores are placed on a pedestal. I always read on the internet about all the porn stars setting unrealistic standards of beauty and sex appeal, and wonder of they see the same thing that I caught my husband looking at. Most of them women look sickly and flappy. I don’t think he was looking for beauty, because he has that with me. I think he was looking for dirt and raunch. He lied to me and hid it from me for a few years. To hell with it. I agree that it isn’t enough to leave a husband over, especially when you have children, but it sure as f*ck does not make a man a good husband. It makes him less of a man, and scientific studies actually show it lowers testosterone and damages the brain. People need to spare the pissed off wives of all the naturalistic fallacies to justify this behavior. Also, it does not help to argue that “all men are doing this nowadays” (does that make it good, just because “everyone else is doing it?”), or the dreaded “it’s not about you!” -Well no sh!t it’s not about me, and that’s the f’ing problem. This is just a way to show that our exclusive erotic connection has been disposed of, because it’s “not about me.” It’s about all the dirty herpes infested sacks of venereal warts on the internet that moan really loud, because they don’t have small children in the next room that might hear.
Sister that was AWESOME!!
“dirty herpes infested sacks of venereal warts on the internet”. Why are u hating on these women, just because men like looking at them? They’re just doing their jobs, and not hurting anyone except those women who hate porn. I hate the cattiness that so many women have towards each other.
Ditto, what is particularly offensive is the notion that this behavior isn’t his fault. It’s HER fault for not being able to see through his B/S lies. Without placing at least part of the responsibility on men, they escape without guilt. Guilt and shame are barometers that signal when your behavior is WRONG. Without a conscience men are operating as socio/psychopaths- and here women are encouraged to believe that their behavior is ‘normal’. Good husbands are fathers are watching porn and oggling strippers and other women. Men aren’t wired for monogamy; missionary style is okay if he could have a different woman every night. That’s proof that porn is a lie. It’s about NUMBERS dude- screwing as many women as POSSIBLE. oh and my favorite, they’re designed to ‘spread their seed’.
Call it what it is- opportunistic lust and greed in a society that endorses this behavior because people would rather deal with a creep than be alone. Men are NOT designed this way, they’re socialized this way. Society and culture have evolved through the centuries but many people are left behind in depravity. People are having more sex than in history and divorce is at an all time high. Something’s not working! Take responsibility for how you treat other people and cultivate some self control.
@Pam – The divorce rate has been steadily declining for about thirty years.
Pam,
It’s obvious you don’t watch porn. And you don’t know how to handle men who do. So you should dump men who watch porn. They shouldn’t be with women who judge him on his porn-watching any more than you should be with a man who disrespects you by watching porn.
So that’s either going to leave you with no men to date or date only men who lie to you about their porn watching.
Have you ever watched any porn? Some are really hilariously unrealistic that would make you roll your eyes and think, “Really, do men really think women do that when they’re alone with their vibrators?”
One morning after watching some porn with my bf the night before, I had to mention it. “Honey, can I dissect what we watched last night just a little bit?” He gives me a wary, narrow-eyed look and says “Sure.” “You know that scene when the woman was blowing the dildo like it was the real thing? You do realize that women don’t do that, right? That was all for the camera. Women know it’s an inanimate object and don’t treat it like the real thing. You know that, right?” He replies, “How do you know what other women do?” I just rolled my eyes, shook my head and had a giggling fit. “And you know that scene when the woman in the middle was holding that giant double-ended dildo thing with the a woman at each end? That reminded me of bad special effects. It’s so bad and unreal. I mean women just don’t blow inanimate objects before or after using it. Seriously!” He just rolled his eyes and shook his head at me with a I-can’t-believe-she-just-said-that-to-me-smile.
I watch porn like other bad movies, you see the inconsistencies. You notice that the editing, dialogue, and the “acting” are just awful. Like a really bad, campy sci-fi movie with really bad special effects and totally implausible storylines.
You just can’t get mad or threatened by that stuff. Totally unrealistic. And if a guy finds a girl that would emulate the porn he watches? More power to him. But she’d be certifiably nuttier than a fruitcake. Normal women don’t do that stuff. And I think most men know that. So chill. Porn is not a threat to healthy and happy relationships. It shouldn’t even be a threat to unhappy sad ones.
Either that or my bf just likes really bad porn. lmao
@ Pam
“oh and my favorite, they’re designed to ‘spread their seed’…Call it what it is- opportunistic lust and greed in a society that endorses this behavior because people would rather deal with a creep than be alone. Men are NOT designed this way, they’re socialized this way.”
Incorrect. Men *are* designed this way and there are studies to prove it:
Jonason, P.K. et al. (2012). Avoiding entangling commitments: Tactics for implementing a short-term mating strategy. Personality and Individual Differences, 52, 606-610.
Gangestad, S.W., et al. (2000). The evolution of human mating: Trade-offs and strategic pluralism. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23, 573-644.
Lippa, R.A. (2009). Sex differences in sex drive, sociosexuality, and height across 53 nations: Testing evolutionary and social structural theories. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 38, 631-651.
Petersen, J.L., et al. (2010). A meta-analytic review of research on gender differences in sexuality, 1993-2007. Psychological Bulletin, 136, 21-38.
This is spot on, More women need to call this gutter behavior exactly what it is and stop making excuses for “males”. Real men control themselves.
Tom10, isn’t it funny though…
we aren’t hard wired to sit in cubicles in front of computer screens all day but we do it.
we aren’t hard wired to be so sedentary but 1 out of 3 Americans are obese.
we aren’t hard wired — men or women — to be monogamous for 30 or 40 years but many people manage to do it.
please stop defending men using biology as an excuse for selfish behavior.
Very well said! You go girl!!!
@ SQ
“please stop defending men using biology as an excuse for selfish behavior.”
But I wasn’t defending any behavior; I was simply refuting Pam’s point that men are socialized to want to ‘spread their seed’ rather than being designed that way, as the evidence — which I posted above – supports the latter.
Now, how any particular man chooses to behave — selfishly or unselfishly — is another matter. Indeed, the fact that so many millions of men manage to intentionally over-ride this instinct for the sake of their long-term partner actually testifies to the innate “goodness” of most men and their willingness to do their best for their woman, no?
OMG I LOVE YOU
PREACH
Hearing you loud and clear. I refer back to my comments about knowing who you’re with/dating, etc. BEFORE falling in love with a man that will never be the kind of hubby you want to spend your life with. Patterns are everything, Baby. Always research everything about a potential mate. You do when buying a car, home, rug, dining set….come on…women need to start respecting their wants and needs and be ahead of the GAME in settling for a lifelong mate….by knowing all she can first about what she wants and will and will-not settle for. Then use that schematic like a BOSS to weed out those with patterns that suggest that he won’t be able to deliver on her most desired traits in a husband/father. DO THE RESEARCH on potential men to let into your life. I also personally believe that men that love and honor their mothers in healthy ways make a big score on my board.
Remember this: The honeymoon period pulls us tighter together (or not). When that fades and each of us begin to see the irritating parts of the other seeping into our consciousness..love becomes a choice… every day. Keep cognizant of what you love and want to continue to honor in your mate…and if it’s just irritating issues you see in him/her…make the decision to choose love and letting go of the negative. Every day. After the oxycodone honeymoon…love is a CHOICE.
I totally agree. People always say that it’s important for spouses to respect/honor their husbands/wives feminine or manly essence and qualities even if you don’t quite understand or agree with them. Yet I can’t think of one women’s quality that allows her husband to feel insecure, hurt, or disguised by having lustful eyes/fantasizing for others outside of their marriage. I understand we were created differently but I wish this was the one thing that was the same between us. It just hurts so bad..
Well said! THE BEST reply on this entire thread!!!
Now THAT I agree with !!!!
Excellent!!!
One of the best comments yet!!!!!! Thank you so much for keeping it real.
We do not, man or woman, have to be enslaved to our evolutionary mating strategies. Men, who want to be truly fulfilled in life, can learn to be happy with one woman. Or, he can frantically try to spread his seed far and wide, and remain spiritually unfilled.
Women can follow their evolutionary mating strategies…be hypergamic…have a laundry list of requirements that no single man can fulfill, and end up alone with 50 cats, or she can learn to start seeing men as human beings, and find one that she simply enjoys spending time with…and end up spiritually fulfilled.
It’s your choice, and choices have consequences.
It isn’t the porn that leads to cheating. It’s women who don’t feel secure in themselves. A man is a man and his mind is his mind. Same as a woman’s. I truly believe it is how you act and talk to him about this and let him know what hurts and what doesn’t that will make your relationship stand a chance. He may try really hard to change finds it hard to do it all at once. AS LONG AS HE TRIES even if it’s one thing at a time the fact that he is trying !! FOR YOU!!!!means he has love for you but may have a problem with porn. Quietly put your hurts in his head then leave him to do with them as he wishes. If things don’t improve then you accept it or leave. My man was bad and I tried the guilt trip and it didn’t get me far.. I then talked to him about my hurts left them in his mind for him to think over and put it aside in my mind for the moment. I also didn’t monitor his every move in the pub. Next thing he’s looking at me more. HE TRIES SO HARD to change and that has made me secure and feel attractive again. It’s your choice,depending on how much you want him.
Fantastic comment, I am doing the same thing in my marriage, and it seems to be doing something. He is most certainly trying. He has seen how much hurt he has caused me and it scares him. He is seeking professional help for his porn addiction, it is a long road but change for the better is coming slowly.
Hallelujah! My thoughts presicely! Finally an honest woman. Woman are so hypocritical and men are actually too silly to realize they’re being played. Ever been to the Chippendales? And then listen to the conversations afterwards. Women are worse than men but it just suits them to make their husbands/boyfriends think they are wholier than the virgin Mary.
So true. I just don’t get it. I mean we look great take care of ourselves have men look at us too, and yet we don’t thrive on it. … Well maybe a little😗We just pretended not to notice, but they can’t help but take every jester a women gives as if its there first one they ever got.😳
Women do what they do at Chippendales or other such events as passive-aggressive payback for years of being made to feel like less of a woman by their husbands or boyfriends who have wandering eyes & fantasizing minds. I have only seen male strippers at 2 party events & both times there were women who yelled digs at their husbands or boyfriends such as, “Take that Joe (husband’s name), you asshole”. Just being there was sufficient to give me some passive-aggressive pleasure.
Agree! I have never been to one of those shows and really don’t care to, but I totally agree it is passive aggressive. Hurt runs deep in the female population.
“Just being there was sufficient to give me some passive-aggressive pleasure”
You were still there, were you not? Tell me, does cheating give you “some passive-aggressive pleasure” too? Incidentally, don’t you deride men for “passive-aggressive behavior”? What makes it right for you to engage in it, then?
“Hurt runs deep in the female population”
So does hate, apparently.
Dutchie, women that think so little of themselves to ever be seen in a place like Chippendales are low class women. Women with class and dignity wouldn’t be caught dead in a vile place like that. You must be hanging out with the wrong women.
Why don’t we all fuck around and get diseases!! Common girls ! Let’s do it like the men!!
Ummm, Did anybody ever think of a marriage as a sacrament, a holy thing dedicated to God, directing all thoughts including sexual ones to the Most High? Wouldn’t that be the greatest delight, totally overriding the need for lustful stimulation from either sex?
absolutly fantastic! You summed it up just as if I said those words myself. TY😊
Amen to that Nicole! 🙂
Very true. Women are not as innocent as many are just like the men as the article describes…but I wouldnt make my partner feel like I could not be trusted by disrepecting and causing unessesary stress by making them feel less: like they are not as good looking as physically attractive or actually say that you would want or have sex in some way with another.
I think Nicole is fooling herself. If she had any class or respect for herself, she wouldn’t be searching for male strip clubs that show the “full monty”. I am a professional, self-respecting woman and no woman that I know with any dignity behaves that way. I feel sorry for Nicole and her husband who is obviously not experiencing a mature, special and truly respectful relationship with his wife.
Ummm, Jane…one can remain perfectly self-respecting and be discreet in enjoying her sexual awakenings…it does not make her less a respectful human being. If a couple has differing libidos, for instance, which happens more than you might think…the one with the higher libido is responsible for meeting their extra sexual needs (meaning the overflow when their partner is not feeling it). That doesn’t mean porno or peep shows, really. In privacy, he/she can sexually satisfy oneself quite effectively ALL BY ONESELF.
This is so sad, it makes me not want to date anyone and be single forever…
I agree! Sometimes I think I would be much happier single and penniless than having to fret over every attractive woman he smiles at or flirts with! This article makes it seem men are incapable of being a respectable man with respect for his wife! I think it is sad that they cant control themselves because psychologically they have a penis and very little will power! It is very degrading to me when my husband and I are at a beauty salon and I am trying to make myself beautiful for him. Does he appreciate the hours it took me to do my make up? No, he barely comments. But he acknowledges any other attractive females makeup or jewelry assets. It is and should never be acceptable. I will definitely not be getting with another guy for long time if ever when I get divorced. My life will be so much more peaceful without this stress and I will be able to love myself at last! Good riddens to controlling, nasty men!!!
You totally missed the point of this article…good luck. As a man I am just shaking my head…
I don’t think she missed the point she’s just not interested in men if that’s what they’re all like. And I agree! Sex is just painful if I know you’re going to be fantasizing about some other woman the next day.
You can shake your primitive brain carrying head of yours all you want, obviously you are one of the average males on this planet…. And, with all due respect, you wouldn’t be able to understand how the average male behavior affects the more superior thinking beings as women apparently are, at least based on this article….
I am 60 yrs old and have been married for 30 yrs. I totally get the point of this article. My husband has been looking at other women & fantasizing about them for about 25 yrs. now. He is a wonderful husband & father. But you know what? It has always affected me & made me feel like less of a woman, even though I did my best to not let it bother me. I was never quite happy, though I really did my best to smile & make light of his attraction to other women. Now that I’m much older, the pain has become much worse. My husband is still looking at 20-30 yr olds, when I’m 60. C’mon, how much self esteem can a 60 yr old woman have when she compares herself to a 20 or even 30 yr old? You know what I say? Grow the fuck up men! Your wife who u have chosen for life, deserves for u to only have eyes for her. I think a grown up, loving man can make that sacrifice for the woman he claims to love. It is not love to perpetually hurt your wife & destroy her self esteem. And it is a rare woman who can deal with your wandering eye with a smile upon her face. I wish I either waited for a man who only had eyes for me, or never got married at all. I was a pretty hot chick in my day, & still my self esteem suffered to the point where I am today. Love means forsaking all others, not just in body but also in mind, heart & soul. Your wedding vows should have told u that.
A lot of women here get the point of the article but we just don’t want to be with those kind of men. We want to be with the rare kind of man that Evan described as only having eyes for his wife. Many of us were duped into thinking that we married that rare kind of man, only to find out years later that we were sadly mistaken. If you are the kind of man described in the article, let us know before you marry us. Don’t let us find out years later and be shocked because, we only had eyes for you, while you’re eyes are darting everywhere. In fact, when you say your wedding vows, you could change them to reflect the kind of man you are…Something like this: “I promise to love and honor you. I promise to forsake all other women, except the women of porn, and the women passing by on the street who give me a hard on. I promise to fantasize and jerk off to other women, no more than 5 times a week. I will be a good husband and father if you will be happy letting me do these things that I desperately NEED to do”. Sound good? Oh, hell yes!! Women would walk away at the altar if they heard the real truth behind your wedding vows!
Which head are you shaking
lmao
Women don’t get it… This has nothing to do with the women he loves.. Men look no matter what.. It’s Variety!!!! Doesn’t matter how hott there own chick is… I am one of the women who does get this.
this is exactly the article I needed. I am in tears right now. No matter how much weight I lose I will never be pretty and I will never be tall like the women he breaks his neck to look at. He does tell me he loves me everyday. He kisses me goodbye before he goes to work. He loves that I do all of the cooking in the cleaning. He says that before he met me he never thought he was a attractive.. I tell him you’re sexy and hot every single day. He never tells me this. I’ve been googling how to become anorexic. I’m 5’4 and weigh 158 pounds. I have crooked teeth. I forgot that I wasn’t attractive until it become in a relationship with this man. Just three weeks ago he put a very expensive diamond on my finger. A few of my female friends and family members are extremely jealous. But this is exactly the article I needed. If I looked at another man it would break his heart. Whenever I have happened to do the two second glance at another man, he notices, and he slumps over and gets depressed. But I only started doing this at the advice of some internet articles that said to do this and give him a taste of his own medicine. I sometimes even feel suicidal over his looking at other women. It would be one thing if he looked at women that look like me. He does not. I’ve even called them form and s**** to their faces for dressing like sluts. But I’m normally a very calm sweet loving female. Very devoted. Very domestic. I just can’t live with it. If I cannot carry out this anorexic thing, I’m sending my daughter to her father’s, we have lots of guns in this house. I know how to load them and I know how to shoot them. I would never hurt my family. I would never hurt him. & I promise I would never kill myself in our home. But I just can’t take it. It shatters my heart into a million pieces. And he knows this. He can look at women all the time whenever he’s not with me. But he doesn’t with me. I can’t take it anymore.
I meant he DOES it with me. Couldn’t spellcheck on this
Dawn,
You have to remember one thing Dawn — Just because YOU find him attractive doesn’t mean those women HE looks at finds HIM attractive.
He can look, but if they don’t look back, and he has no chance with them, what is there to be worried about?
Being confident will change him faster than being fearful and needy. He proposed to you. He’s going to marry you. You’re ruining a good thing by being insecure.
@Dawn: Aww things will be ok. Excess weight can be lost and crooked teeth can be fixed. U can be prettier.
How can u be suicidal over him looking at other women? I don’t know if u mean he gives them a 2nd glance or if he very obviously leers at them, but whatever it is, it’s not worth ur life. And don’t your daughter, ur family and your friends mean smthg to u too?
I think (sorry…) that the problem is more your insecurities, because if u were confident and a guy treated u a way u hated, u’d just walk away and be with someone else. I hope u get some counselling/therapy, and meanwhile try to improve the way u look if it helps u feel better. And I can’t imagine being with a guy if I didn’t feel beautiful in his eyes, so I couldn’t endure a rship like yours, but that’s just me. Anyway there’s always a better solution than suicide.
Dawn, no man is worth your life over. There are good men out there. I know I have been in relationships with very good looking men that never caused me this kind of pain. I think it is the insecure men that do this. They do not feel good about themselves so they try to prop themselves up on other women. They need to hold on to the boobs to keep from falling down that is how low their self-esteem is. I know this because I have an inexperienced, immature man that does this a lot. What will put these kind of men in their place is for you to hold yourself up high and think that you are all that and totally beautiful. Walk and talk and think of yourself as beautiful. And expect some backlash from him when you do it. I am an attractive women and I will flaunt it and it will piss my husband off and throw him totally off balance.
Thanks, Jeanie, for your comment. I am 38 years old and am engaged to a man that I love, but can’t fully trust. I have been with him for almost 5 years and my little girl calls him “daddy,” He used to stare at women all the time and used to actually WATCH a particular girl at work often. He would make obnoxious comments like “Wow, look at that!” And sometimes he would even make grunting sounds. He would pass up going with me somewhere to spend time together so he could stay home to watch porn. Pretty pathetic!!! I have been soooooo torn up over this. Now, he just tried to do it “under radar” so he doesn’t catch hell. And he will tell me he has changed and it’s all in my crazy head. But, sometimes, he tries so hard to hide it that he makes it obvious! No matter how hard I try, I’m not good enough and never will be. I don’t even recognize myself anymore. I have prayed so much for us and for him. Don’t know what to do-never been so confused or lost. New evidence has floored me and that’s why I find myself drinking and bawling in my dark dining room at 5 o’clock in the morning, texting a total stranger. We are supposed to get married in about 3 1/2 months. My kids need stability and after everything I have been through, I am exhausted. Just want a normal family life where I can trust the person I lay next to every night. Is that too much to ask?
No, it’s not.
Your comment isn’t about looking at other women, which is not. This is about trust. Dump your fiance before it’s too late. It’s not his fault he’s not trustworthy. It’s your fault for choosing him and letting it go this long.
It’s all about having a personal intimate relationship with God. If a man have an intimate relationship with God whether married or not or in a relationship, he WOULD NOT steer at other women. God can keep you from falling into temptation.
To the man who responded and wrote this article. You DISGUST me encouraging other men to look upon women based on some man made theory to please the huge ego and cheating mind of the male as if we women are steel and don’t have sexual desire and fantasy about men too! IT ALL ABOUT HAVING AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, and showing respect t your woman/wife. It’s all about putting your partner feelings first!
Dawn,
Sometimes we can all get into a situation that rips open every wound from every insecurity and self-doubt we’ve ever had. The pain and darkness that come with that can feel overwhelming; it can make us forget the joys we do have in life. It can make us want to try extreme, even dangerous solutions. or even believe that our life is no longer worth living. Still, no situation is hopeless, so long as we have a breath left in us. Among a small and rather exclusive fraternity of men I happen to belong to, we have a saying, especially when the odds are long, the task seems impossible, and nothing is going according to plan: “Do what you can, right now, where you are, with what you’ve got!” I want you to take those words, hang onto them, AND ACT ON THEM. If you will do that, it may not make everything perfect, but it will bring some sunlight back into your life again.
You’re sad, and discouraged. You don’t look like you wish you did. However, You do have a boyfriend/’fiance, who at least says he loves you. You have a daughter, who I’m sure loves you very much, and you have a family; I’m sure they love you very much too.That’s where you are, and what you’ve got, right now. However it feels, that’s more than a lot of people have, or ever will have, and if you need reasons to go on living, well. those are some pretty good ones, Now let’s talk about doing what you CAN DO, because that’s the really important part.
You’ve mentioned several positives about yourself; “calm, sweet, loving, devoted…” and those are all good things. Love those parts of you; it’s almost certain others will..and do. “I’ll never be pretty! I hear you say. Well, you may or may not ever be on the cover of Vogue,and you can’t be a tall supermodel, but I’ll bet you can be prettier. Crooked teeth can be fixed, or at least improved to the point that only you will ever really notice. As for losing weight, there are far better and safer ways than trying to wish an eating disorder on yourself! Anorexia is no joke; it can and will literally kill you! It’s not the only way. If you think you have a weight and beauty problem, let me tell you a true story. My girlfriend used to be from childhood on, (her words) “The little fat girl nobody wanted”, and it kept getting worse. She was in an abusive marriage when she had a child at 39, and the weight got so extreme, it was literally killing her. She had to lose weight, before her body could even withstand weight loss surgery. She went though all that, with almost no emotional support, during the end of her marriage and a bitter divorce. She refused to give up. Today, years later, she weighs lees than half what she did, back then. She’s short, 5’2″, and definitely curvy, but you’d never know she had a severe weight problem. She’s not typical, she’s in fact a walking miracle; but who’s to say you can’t have a miracle of your own? I don’t know whether you can make your man love you, but you can make yourself into someone you can love, and be proud of, instead of hating yourself, for what you’re not. Do what you can, right now, where you are, with what you’ve got. Do it for yourself, not anyone else. Make it a constant unwavering commitment to you, from you. If you will do that, every day, then I promise you, you cannot lose, and you just might surprise yourself!
Jeanie, you are 100% correct, that’s NOT love. Don’t ever forget it. 🙂
Honey you need help. If you don’t feel good being with him, which is the point of having a partner, because they make you feel good, then get rid of him… Killing yourself is never the right choice, nor is becoming anorexic.. Work on yourself to make yourself feel good.. Get in shape, get braces, fix the things you can but only for yourself, not for anyone else. These are things we must pass on to our daughters as well…
Dawn, empower yourself. You need to break up with him and start seeing a psychologist regularly. At the same time get braces and go to the gym and eat healthy.
I totally agree with you Lisa. 100 %. Its so hurtful.
Lisa,
I totally agree with you. I got married to a man I knew from high school and had not seen for over 30 years. We lived together for a one year and he totally adored me. I never got the feeling he was looking at other women back then. But now he is different after looking a playboy for years and then porn on the internet while single. We have been together three years and the first year he looked a nude girls 5 times a day. He looked when I was asleep, when I went to the store, when I was cooking his food. I finally let him have it and I told him a wanted a divorce. He begged me not to leave him. He stopped viewing naked girls but I catch him looking in cars and looking at women almost every time we go out. It is a feeling you get as a women. The problem is I cannot prove it. If I get the fortunate opportunity to prove it, he can kiss his ass goodbye. I was single and did not date for 15 years. Those 15 years were the happiest years of my life and I want that happiness back. The real truth is this…..men have been told many lies about their sexuality by profiteers like hefner and flint. And like the man that wrote the bullshit above…about spreading their seeds. Lies…lies…lies. Men that believe all of that do not own their own sexuality…flint and hefner own it!!!!
i agree with you, men are told lies. this article is designed to make a man continue to wank over other women. I found the most beautiful women with her bum stuck up in the air, deliberately designed to turn my man on, well I will be turning him on by showing him the picture then smacking him over the head with it. There has hardly been any touching or intimacy between us and he refuses to discuss it. He try’s to convince me that nothing’s wroNg. Honestly I felt like leaving today over the sexy website I found. we have been together for 24 years and now I am 48. If what men are doing is so right then why do we all feel the same, like this. Insecure, unhappy and especially wanting to change ourselves to look better which is pretty impossible when your aging.
Kim,
Why do you think your husband begged you to not to leave?
If not you, couldn’t he be able to find at least another average looking girl.. he could however value your relationship than his temporary sexual thoughts.
First of all why do you compare yourself with other beautiful women around… he is just staring not going with them right?
And how do you think you are the most beautiful person in this world, to the eyes of your husband also… any average man likes average looking girl with good heart to commit as a living partner, beauty is never ending story, and no body is perfect.
So holistically you are always beautiful to your husband.
Don’t you appreciate the handsomeness of some actor on the screen so does it mean your husband is worst and of no use?
I hope most Men do know the difference between fantasy and reality…
And I don’t get the clues yet why do woman value and felt degraded by thinking about men’s fantasy…
So if he is not designed such a way why he is behaving in that way? do you think that the only reason is that he is not putting efforts to control himself?
I didn’t mean you should allow him to stare or give the freedom to do everything he likes like watching nude girls… you should always control him like a thread to a kite knowing the fact of the natural instinct…and being a constructive criticizer of his out of control thing.
Men are Men, however they do have hearts and love on their wife and kids..
God why did you make these complicated sexual desires and killing the brains of Men and Women? of course in different ways. 🙂
I agree, there is no point, nobody likes to feel disrespected. When I am talking to a guy I barely notice other men, I just don’t see the point of staring at other men like an idiot. If I’m interested in you (the guy) this just naturally happens.
I told a “good” guy I’m talking to this and said he doesn’t see anything wrong with women looking yet claims men easily get their egos bruised by us.
So stupid!!!
Amen
Same here Sophia, same here 🙁
Exactly,
Sophia and Lisa, that is precisely how I see many women feeling this day and time. It is very hurtful, and truly I have no interest in another man but my husband it doesn’t even turn me on. I have had friends ask me to see the male strippers I was not interested. I have had friends want to go and pose and get pics of male nude models again I had no interest. I completely turned it all down. Then I find porn mags and pono’s under my bed not but about six weeks later. I am lost and disappointed. All this time I thought I was being respectful in not doing things like that with my girlfriends only to find out it has been done to me numerous times behind my back at that.
Same here ! I feel I have to be alone if i don t tolerate this . It is to fight a losing battle . I would like to be able not to fall in love and not believe in love . But what a life without it . The only way for me would be to have a succesfull a carrier as a life. This is crazy , men would not tolerate half of this, if it was the case for women but because it is men it is tolerated . What a life ! This is sad and this the truth and i always knew it. Many women knows but some pretends it is okay with them .
Maybe the way we perceive this horrible challenge between love and men relations to sex and other women is the way they see commitment .Eg : “I wish i would be able to have it all ” sadly all is socially not acceptable , it is mote convenient to get married . “They are maybe as forced to monogomy than as we are by accepting their ‘ sexual arrousal” for everthing
Key: women can only be half happy constantly because their expectation will never be fully met with men
well, let me tell you one thing for sure.. here where the religion comes in.. if you ppl ever researched on “islam” this is the ONLY religion which tell the men to lower their gaze… to be respectful to other women.. to love and respect your wife.. there is a big punishment for the people who watch such things and are unfaithful to their spouse.. so i think it’s better to be a religious person.. rater than being a shamuck and staring and fantazing about every other woman…
No, not so much. There’s is a whole list of Biblical Scripture that addresses this. But the majority of Evan’s readers are neither Christian or Muslim, and are not likely to use either holy book as the basis for a code of conduct.
Funny how the Islamic leaders think that the existence of women is unnatural and we should be forced to stop existing as soon as possible.
also, it’s illegal for woman to decide to breathe. It is up to her husband whether she’s allowed to breathe or not.
Are you kidding!? Mohammad married a 6 yr. old and raped her when she was 9. He and his men went from village to village murdering all of the males and took the women as their wives and concubines. He told his men they could have 5 wives In addition to concubines. All he cared about was sex. Read your history.
and to be specific there is an equal punishment for men for cheating on their wives and fantasizing about other women, and watching pron… so don’t feel so low.. just search for the truth… i hope the moderator lets these comments to be posted
And in Islam, men are also allowed to marry 4 wives.
And I think they can divorce a wife simply by saying, “I divorce you” four times?
Tom10 in another thread surmised that much of the tension in middle-eastern countries that breed terrorists. Because those men follow Islam and have no place to put their sexual energy and therefore, put that energy into extremist thinking (if I die a martyr, I’ll have access to 100 virgins in heaven (or whatever Islam heaven is)). It’s unnatural to subvert one’s healthy sexuality. Take Catholic priests scandals, for example. Need I say more?
In another thread, someone else mentioned that many middle-eastern men are into “anal” sex. And this is because they’re not allowed to have sex with women. So the loophole is that they have sex with other men.
Be careful what you wish for.
God has a sense of humor.
Yes, and in Islam, a man can have sex with as many women as he wants even while married, so porn is really a non-issue. It is not uncommon for men to have one wife and then to marry another additional wife for as little as one day and then divorce her. Then they repeat the process over and over. That way they are able to have sex with other women and not break the laws of their religion.
Gabe I agree with. I mean if a woman can not even deal with acknowledging that a man finds other women attractive, will look and fantasize on occasion about other woman, then you have personal issues and insecurities. This is not something we control, it is an impulse that we are born with. If someone shouts don’t look up……. your instinct is to look up, this is similar to why men look at other women. If he vocally acknowledges every attractive woman to you, then tell him to stop and keep it to himself. If he doesn’t acquiesce, then he doesn’t respect or care for you and it’s time to move on. Ela, we are all primitives, including you, but men are capable of controlling those instincts as good men do. While we might still think about other woman, men that love their partners, know what they have lose and act accordingly. Most of the women complainers on here, need to stop complaining or blogging about it and actually tell their man about these problems. We can’t read minds you know. But if you’re one of the crazies that can not even deal with a guy looking at other woman or accept the fact that there are other beautiful woman out there, then look inward because the problem lies with you.
Hopefully, you can deal with your woman looking at other men as well. Women are sexual beings, too, and men can do it, but hate it when it is done to them. Keep your post in mind when you see your wife gawking at Tom Hardy (I know I would).
Nick, I have to call bullshit on you last comment. It does not make you a “crazy” to be upset at your husband looking at other women. In my opinion there are 3 types of PEOPLE (not just men!): those who don’t look at others, those who look but would never stray and those who are compulsive flirts that would, and sometimes do, stray. I have seen men who are totally in love with their wives and watched when an attractive woman walks by and the man glances up but then looks away. To him those women are IRRELEVANT. The problems arise when there is incompatibility of the 3 types in couples. I have a husband that looks, has ignored me while staring at other women and it is hurtful, disrespectful and, if the other woman notices, it is humiliating. I am type one. I chose my man and he is all I need. Any other man means nothing to me. It is difficult that my husband isn’t the same type as me but I have talked to him about it and it was very upsetting to him to hear that he was hurting me. He is now making the effort to be more attentive when we are out together. It pisses me off that guys get to say things like “That’s just the way we are” without considering that women needing to feel secure in a relationship is “just the way we are!” We all need to recognize the male/female differences, not demonize our partners for their biological wiring and above all we need to COMMUNICATE with the people we love. Try not to make the guy feel bad for what he is doing, just point out what it is like from your perspective and if he loves you he will be sad and will try to change. If not, then be glad you found out he doesn’t really care about you and have the balls to leave.
Very, very well put.
Well i undertsand now. But still is not ok to hurt our love ones.
Im the type of person who loves their partner and respects them in every way. And would never look or stare at other men when im in a relationship. On other hand my partner loves me but doesn’t respect me. He is the type of person who can’t help but look and starr at other women.
So i have talked to him few times now about this topic but he keeps on denying evey time i tell him how i feel he always say no i wasn’t looking at her or making other excuse.
All i wanted to hear was the truth from him. Tell me he us sorry and that he won’t do it again.
I just dont get it i don’t do that do him so he shouldn’t do that to me.
So well put. My husband calls it responding to attractiveness. I wonder when he will notice that I dont go out in public on my own anymore with him. When will he notice that I am withdrawing from him sexually. At least he will still have his response to responding to attractiveness and a broken marriage and family. Looks like his kicks came first.
Micky excellent post. Noticing other women is unnecessary, vulgar and disrespectful. This is a behaviour which can be changed and if your partner loves you he should stop this and grey people out while on the streets. Period.
As long as my man checks out other women and watches porn, I feel no guilt having secret time with other men.
Agreed 100%
Ok so you are justifying your cheating (being actually intimate, having sex, what ever it is) because he fantasises about other women or looks at naked women screen…
Finally, a chic with some balls. Laura, you are my twin and we need to be cloned. Then things would actually change for the better.
If they dont feel bad, and that nothings wrong with it, then I guess theres nothing wrong with having your own private activities.
If I’m pretty and satisfy him every way why look? This just breaks my heart like I will never be good enough and so you know what watch all the porn you want and masturbate 100 times a day and look and every ass that passes in front of you. So sad men like that will end up alone… Why lose a for sure women that loves you for someone you don’t know???? It’s just I want to be loved and adored like I love and adore you!!!! End of story… I am not asking for something from my partner that I am not giving my self!
But men and women want different things from a relationship to be happy.
It’s not sex that keeps a man in the relationship with you, it’s how good you make him feel as a person.
Women want conversation and treated as a priority by their men.
Men want appreciation, lack of drama, and easygoing-ness from their women.
Give him what he wants from you, not what you want to get from him. If you don’t know what he wants, ask him. Most men are pretty good at communicating what they want. Just make sure you can handle the truth before asking him.
This is b.s.! It has to do with respect. The fact that no matter how average or gorgeous a woman is to you, we spent a lot of money, time and energy just to look good, usually women do it for the men they are with.
It is the fact that men like you are never satisfied with what you have. This is the most selfish behavior ever!
How would you like it if a woman told you about men who makes 7 figures. I mean constantly… Or men with large penises? Think of the most hurtful thing said to you and how it made you feel!
He’d dump you.
So do the same to a guy.
If he treats you with disrespect, then dump him.
Where’s the problem?
I get that men are interested in variety and as I’ve been told “like to look at boobs!” However, the lines of fidelity are so blurry now. I feel there are so many ways to cheat a spouse and it doesn’t just have to be having sex with another person. That’s a pretty low bar. What about these camgirl sites? The ones where men *innocently* view women for free to a point, but then see an opportunity to pay her to do certain things or chat with her and end up subscribing and “collecting” women they follow in their profiles. This is like attending a strop club at will and engaging in – or potentially engaging in – conversation with the stripper before and after. Is that being faithful? Even if it’s only online while your wife deals with pesky tasks like cleaning your underwear and putting your children to bed? Just men being men right?
@Dzz
Even if it’s only online while your wife deals with pesky tasks like cleaning your underwear and putting your children to bed? Just men being men right?
If a woman’s husband is visiting cam girls, then competition from cam girls is the least of her worries because her marriage is on a respirator. That is a classic example of a man looking for a way to survive in his marriage without resorting to outright cheating. He is biding his time until his children are old enough to leave. Show me a man who is visiting cam girls, and nine times out of ten, I will show you a woman who has made the primary relationship in the house between her and her child or children. That is a reason why men cheat. The women in their lives are no longer the women they married. Science has demonstrated that the key to monogamy is on ongoing dose of oxytocin, which means having regular intimate contact.
https://www.uni-bonn.de/Press-releases/oxytocin-leads-to-monogamy
@Yet Another Man
This is amazing to me. Someone has to clean the underwear and put the kids to bed. When it isn’t done you know what happens? Said Husband asks “Do I have any clean white T-Shirts?” and “Gee, it’s getting really late, you kids should be getting to bed.” And if they’re under 8, they sure aren’t putting themselves there. And neither is he. Someone has to do it and it never seems to fall to the man. But sure, lay the blame at the feet of the woman.
When you marry a woman and make her a mother, then yes, she has changed and she’s going to have to devote some of her time to those children. Same hours in the day, now divided between you and your progeny because guess what – the wife hasn’t multiplied, she’s still only one human being! No, she won’t be the woman you married because you actively participated in making her into something else – a person who should be valued even more – the mother of your children. Ugh. This cavalier “me, me, me” attitude really pisses me off about men.
Ugh…I know. Sad reality
men are complete cunts its what they do. let them get on with it. i after 3 years of dating. have learned to HATE men. and all they do so i guess im gonna turn lesbian. atleast if i date a woman i wont need to worry about her looking at the next best thing. if you want that. go and get that. why are you even with me? dont get men never will. i have comfidence issues which doesnt help me but i just dont understand men if i can love the one man for the rest of my life then why cant he do the same why does he need to have everything… why cant he just love me and only me. why bother with marrige if your going to cheat or love someone els. FUCK OFF
K,
Don’t hate men! It was a man who gave you life, your Daddy. Remember him? Besides, not every single man is a cheating douchebag. Many are. Not every woman is loyal. Who are those men cheating with?? The way I see it, the problem is less the man than the predatory b*** who will sleep with your man because they have low self-esteem and envy you for what you have. So keep an eye on his co-worker the waitress the friends of friends, LOL. I’m only half kidding. I strongly believe in the sisterhood and that it should be strong. I would not hesitate to expose a b*** who tries to take a man that is already taken. Men don’t screw around if no one will screw around with them.
I also want to say, don’t invest your self-esteem in a man, ever. Nobody deserves that kind of power over you. Men are always going to have that fantasy of a different body to bang in rotation every night. That’s just their little friend talking. Most women are always going to want Prince Charming exclusively all to herself telling her she’s a gorgeous princess every single day. Both of these things are unrealistic, fantasies. We’re dealing with men and women who are flawed human beings. I told my husband if he’s tired of me do me the courtesy of letting me know and I taught him never to disrespect me in public by gawking openly at other women. Whatever sex fantasies either of us have we keep to our damn selves.
It’s about establishing and reestablishing and negotiating boundaries to fit your relationship. If you’re with a man who decides to cheat, leave his a** and find someone else who will treat you with respect. But don’t put the blame on yourself. He did it because he is a douchebag and that’s what he wanted to do. That’s him. It’s not the whole of male kind. What happens when you meet a sweet guy, why would you punish him with the mistakes of the idiot that came before?
Take your happiness where you find it, and enjoy it for as long as you can. Nobody is perfect! Nothing lasts forever! The only truly unconditional forever lasting love in the world is the love you have for yourself. If my husband leaves me tomorrow, I will still have me! I will go on, just like I went on when I left my ex, that bastard. F** that guy. I will find someone new. There’s more than enough love in the world. OK. Off my soap box.
Thank you. I wish I could put you in my pocket for pep talks when I need them.
I agree. It is so hurtful when men stare at other women, I can’t be bothered with them any more. I would rather be on my own, and so are most of my female friends. I just wish I was a lesbian, but sadly I am not. I am happy celibate.
It must be pretty convinient to be a woman. I hear alot of women say that they are going to turn lesbian because they are upset with men. But I don’t hear it to often from a guy. : I am so fed up with women, I am just going to start to suck cock.
Oh, sorry to double post but I should mention that at that show, a table of older women rushed the stage, tackled one of the dancers, and scared the hell out of him. The bouncers had to pull them off (he was insanely good looking) and he was clearly shaken. I’m sorry he was traumatized but it was kind of hilarious (and I apologize for that b/c no one would be able to laugh if that was done to a female stripper). They took him DOWN to the floor.
Yeah, but let’s keep believing that women are so offended and repulsed by male nudity outside of their own bedrooms.
I would love to see more male nudity outside of my bedroom. ; )
I think the main reasons I used to get upset when I saw my man ogling attractive women is because 1) It’s was okay for him to look, but I couldn’t; 2) They would often cheat with these other women, but THAT was okay because they’re “genetically programmed” to; and 3) I liked to think I was special to him; special enough that he wouldn’t want to hurt my feelings by so blatantly staring at a beautiful woman in such a way that the words, “Damn, I sure wish I had her instead of you” could be heard by everyone in the room, even though he hadn’t actually uttered them aloud. I’m 43 and I’ve dated probably 30 men in my lifetime who have done one or all of these things, and I realize now that this is simply how they are, so guess what? My turn! I have zero qualms about flirting in front of my dates or cheating on boyfriends. I feel bad for any man who might actually want a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner as I did all those years, but you have no right to complain when a woman cheats. MEN are the ones who have made us this way. Do unto others, boys. Do unto others….
@Elaine – You’re still missing it.
I didn’t say it’s okay for him, but not for you.
I didn’t say it’s okay to cheat based on genetic programming.
I didn’t say it’s okay for a man to blatantly ogle to the point that it’s embarrassing.
That’s what YOU experienced.
My point is that you can have a “monogamous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner” who still appreciates other women’s beauty.
I know this because I am that partner to my wife.
And I can assure you that the answer to cheating men is not to become a cheating woman. Learn to accept good men; don’t become just like the bad ones.
As a woman, the only uplifting part on your article was the mentioning of a few good men. I have just lost the one I had, because he actually wasn’t. Even if these good men are an exception and few in numbers, being fully satisfied at having their eyes on their women only, they make it worthy for women like myself to look for and hope for a dream to become reality. I can only feel fulfilled and thrive in all aspects, especially sexually, in a monogamous relationship, where there is love and dedication in mind, body and soul from both sides. And if I never find that man, I’d rather live with the dream. And based on the responses to your article, I am not the only woman to feel this way.
I’m fully with you! Looking at other people is a banality, vulgarity and lack of respect for us wives. Lucky those women who have those guys who have eyes for their wife only. My friend has such a hubby. Lucky her.
So if you have a loving, nurturing, supportive partner that loves you. Why does he have to look at other women? Isn’t the woman he “loves” worth all his time and attention. If a guy has to look at other women then I think they aren’t happy with the one they have and they shouldn’t be in a relationship.
EXACTLY! Its that simple. No excuses, no B/S, no lies. And the reason why these guys are not single and have a girlfriend or wife is because they want the easy access to a piece of a** anytime they want it! The convenience of it: no wining, no dining, no chasing, and they get their dishes done at the same time and their laundry!
That is why…if they could get a piece of ass anytime they wanted to, they wouldn’t be married or have a girlfriend. So all of you who have boyfriends and husbands who ogle over other women and watch porn, are being used. That’s the reality of it. Guys can dress it up anyway they want, it is still the same thing, you’re being used.
Dear Evan, I think you are missing the point. Perhaps women want a bit more then a ‘nuturing father and a ‘good’ husband’ They want a polite one aswell. Or perhaps your definition of a good man is different of what most women think is a good bloke. And if a wonan turns around and starts acting the same way? So what? If that makes her feel better.
Even if a female looks like Marylyn Monroe , she still runs the risk of being cheated on ..so, that’s what they mean by its not “you”( meaning ur looks)eventually all relationships hit a high platue and then its up to the couple on how they make it work.. men get a high from looking at good looking person,just like women get a high when a handsome guy looks at her. Although it hurts if your not single it goes both ways only that some females blame it on them selves because its acceptable for men to have random thoughts and not women😕. I didnt date much when i was young and im glad because i know what i feel when i focus on me.I know that if my marriage doesn’t work out I’m not blaming my self -esteem but his unwillingness to settle down on things that should have been ready to leave as soon as he wanted comitmnent. Nevertheless, I’ll be fine single as well ..as long as I don’t run out of batteries.. Ha ha P.S. my grandma always told me.. “The way you look I looked and the way I look you will look” so don’t feel bad 🙂
Hi Evan, that is the first hopeful comment I have read on the feed. Thank you for sharing it. I can accept that, but if the gawking leads to flirting and attentiveness when I am present, how does a wife remain trusting about her husband’s intentions when we are not together? In other words, how do you know he is one of the good ones?
I think, Evan, that she…like a good many of the women on here who object to men “looking” are probably referring more to “leering” than looking. And there is a vast difference. A man who “leers”: is very obvious to onlookers; is often obvious to the person they are leering at; is oblivious to everyone else around them including their date…except to perhaps make objectifying comments about the woman they are leering at; and in other ways consistently treats the woman they are with as ‘less than’ the woman they are leer at, if not while leering, then at some other time in the relationship. This is far different from acknowledging that a member of the opposite sex is attractive or worth a second or third glance. One who appreciate the beauty of another woman simply does that…appreciates. They do not ignore their date for minutes at a time while gazing at the other woman; if they verbally acknowledge the beauty of the other woman, they –at other given moments of time –have acknowledged the beauty of the woman they are with; and they a not overtly obvious to the rest of the people in the vicinity. If the woman they are looking at happens to notice, the RESPECTFUL man does not catch and hold her gaze, giving her reason to believe he is thinking of possibilities with her.
At least, that is what i am taking from the majority of these posts.
Mr Evan you make me laugh. This article only shows one side of the coin. There are men who DON’T find any other woman good looking, etc other than their wife. When they walk the streets they simply don’t notice other females because they have eyes only for their wife. Only she is worth noticing.
Noticing other female bodies is just vulgar, banal, primitive, low class and disrespectful. This comes from a male friend btw.
To all women out there who are hurt by this: never accept this vulgarity from your partners!!!!! It is NOT okay for your partner to hurt your feelings. He should acknowledge this-understand what a stupidity he let himself into and change this behaviour. Looking at other people IS A CHOICE, a behaviour that can be conditioned and neutralized!!
@Evan,
I am aware of all the familiar emotional challenges women go through with this issue. One thing that bothers me extremely is the ONE and ONLY FACT that erotica starts evaporating. Women in general, any size and shape are extremely sexual! They can create overwhelming pleasurable sex during intimacy when the man is fully engaged. All the looking, checking out, porn watching, movies and music videos that are not really anything but rubbish mostly and blah blah blahssss diverts a man’s sexual energy to an unattractive direction. The passion in the relationship starts fading. The highly erotic woman becomes the housewife who becomes like the playboy magazine on the bedside table. You flip through her every now and then..why? .. cos you can, cos she will take you like a hungry wolfie, cos you have your own issues that leads you to fuck with a woman’s astounding sexual power!
So yes, women needs to start having short term relationships. For me, that could simply mean just going out with very interesting men. Let them flirt with me, tease me and keep me tapped in, tuned in and turned on. I would like to see different penises and get a taste of them. Enjoy the male body like a sniffing animal and allow the man to pleasure ME. This ME is every beautiful sexually awesomely powerful women who can come more than one time if her guy can get his ding dong up after he comes and groans like a pathetixclooser. Yuck!
Women are highly sexual. We need to explore so much. Being trapped in a long term relationship with “Poor baby men” provided me nothing but years lost of experience, loss of my own sexual adventures that i so wanted to create with my partners. And all my beautiful ladies no matter how old you are!!…… we all know one thing for sure.. and that is… We are hot af any given day any given hour. We own it. So own it and leave if you are stuck. Explore and get touched my men. Many men. Not just sexually (that is just a very personal choice) but with flirting, kissing, having a weird night out, making out in the cinema… just go for it. Forget the label girlfriend, it is nothing but a sham! Girls JUST DO wanna have fun! And partners, boyfriends are o not gonna bring that out in you!
But do you gawk at the women you see on porn sites, at strip clubs and on the street? You told us where you look, but not what kind of looking it is. THAT is the point for a lot of the women responding here with hurt feelings. It’s one thing to notice attractive people on the street, but to go out of your way to see them at clubs or porn site, well, you say there is nothing wrong with it because it’s you, and you, are fine. You are the male authority so we must look up to you. But I wonder.
I wonder if you can’t distinguish between normal looking and lecherous behavior. I certainly can – and that is the subject of this post.
@elaine I agree Elaine! If they want to cheat and lust with there eyes but act like us women who do that makes us women slutts and men are high fived as players or mackers I think is just wrong and sexist! True, us women do have hormones and eyes, too! But another thing we have had for far too long is respect to not make them uncomfortable. I find it so wrong that my husband will find it perfectly ok for him to stare and I mean a long stare or flirt right in front of me in public and then look at me because he knows it makes me uncomfortable but be offended if I decide to say forget it and check out cute guys online. He will literally grab the cell out of my hands. So when women are jealous, it is because we are insecure and men are basically controlled by whats in there pants? Are we really that weak minded? We need to say no, we deserve the same respect they do. At one point, women had no rights. In some ways, men are still supremecy in the mind. When us women want some rights given men at birthright, we are called feminists and it still has a bad connotation to it! We do a lot for this world including bringing life into this world and honestly we deserve the right to be his one and only if he wants us to have eyes only for him
Here we go again with the 1950’s logic again. No, no, no….no we men are not high-fived for acting crudely in front of our woman. I too used to ogle good looking women but i did learn to stop doing it. Why? Because EVERYBODY let me know it wasn’t cool. Men are also not treated like studs for sleeping with other women when we are married. OK, well let me alter that, and I will first let you know that this came from one of my best friends in the Navy who was black, and then backed up by other black men I befriended in the Navy. Yes, many black men do have that attitude. They once tried calling me a punk because I did not go have sex with a woman who publicly propositioned me at a party. Sorry, I wasn’t interested. BTW, to them, PUNK means you are gay. You don’t like having sex with women. Even Magic Johnson stated in an interview that if a woman wanted to have sex with you, you had to have sex with her. This was repeated to me by many black men I knew in the Navy. I can write a whole article on that subject, but I can tell you that this is not copied by white men as a group, or any other race as a group. My friend told me that it stems from the days of slavery when a black man had nothing that made him feel like a man other than his sexual prowess. He didn’t own anything. Didn’t earn a living. Couldn’t come and go as he pleased. He said that this attitude about sex has been passed down from father to son. Is this all true? I don’t know…I only know what he told me, and I know what I saw in twenty years in the Navy.
I can only tell you that most men and women don’t support men cheating or acting crudely in front of their wives. This is not the 1950s. But then, this whole thing is really more of a Hollywood driven myth. My dad can tell you that it wasn’t supported. Now here’s the rub. If a man had a friend who was a male whore, while he disapproved, it might not make him no longer be friends. See, why would I care that much about what another man does? I am not going to sleep with him. But it would sure be nice if half my friends had not already slept with my wife. For the most part, men keep their noses out of other men’s business. But here’s how you know it wasn’t really approved of. Men used to beat up even their best friend if he seduced his sister. In short, now it was personal. It’s like, “Do your thing with those other women, it’s not my business…but screw my sister and now it is, and now you will see that I don’t approve.”
In this day and age, however, nobody really cares. It’s expected that anyone you start dating has likely had a healthy sex life. Nobody makes an issue of it.
I totally agree with you Lisa. If my husband saw me ogling and lusting after every good looking man I saw, he would be crushed and would shrivel up. I am tired of men and too many women making excuses for this disrespectful and hurtful behavior.
You need to finish your statement: Do onto others as “you would have others do ONTO YOU!
That was her point, Jeff. “Do unto others…as others HAVE done unto her.”
Elaine, I am totally with on this one. I am not going out to look for a man but if one happens to show up and I am really attracted to him then I will have him and not feel an ounce of guilt for doing so. I can have my oyster too!!!! What men don’t know can’t hurt them…haha.
I am a woman. I turn my head when I see a hot shirtless man jogging down the street. I have a mega crush on a few sexy rock stars. I still have the magazine of a shirtless Ryan Reynolds from two years ago.
My boyfriend has porn, he like ScarJo and he sees pretty women in public.
We love each other dearly. He is handsome and sexy, and I let him know that often. He tells me I am beautiful and sexy and also what a great person I am, often.
I am not afraid of him leaving me for a porn star – or the waitress. Because we trust each other with the look but don’t touch rule.
I think the problem women have with men’s behavior in this arena is their own sefl-image and self esteem. Look, just because your man like a gorgeous actress does not mean he thinks she is better than you and that you need to meet some standard that society has created.
You do need to be yourself, take care of your health both physically and mentally. And, when you do meet a great guy that loves you for you, trust him.
Beautiful Erica. Every woman who read this article, should read what you just wrote, because you wrote the truth.
This comment helped a lot. Thanks
I think other women should try porn out… its actually a HUGE turn on for women. This helped me understand the porn thing…. because its watching sex, not just the hot woman. I don’t care if my boyfriend watches porn, I watch it too. However, if he actually wants other women, I just don’t want to be in it. If he actually wants to have sex with other women, he shouldn’t be with me. Yes I find other guys hot, yes I am flattered when one flirts with me and maybe I have a flash of a thought like he may about some woman being naked but if those thoughts are indulged upon, I don’t think that is cool. Use porn as an outlet, not your co-worker.
Couldn’t agree more Erica. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the comments from women above didn’t stem from much more serious issues in their relationship. Trust is key, biology is biology. It blows my mind how so many women refuse to acknowledge that, they too, are attracted in one way or another to a good looking man who is not their boyfriend or husband.
For all of you who are watching porn as a couple expect trouble to follow! Yes I thought the way you do, everyone likes it why make it a bad thing. Well fast forward and my husband was way to into it without me and when it was our time, he couldn’t preform. It is hard to be excited about the ordinary woman who truly loves you when you look at so many raunchy things. Throughout this marrige I just can’t keep his attention and I want to give up. I know we love each other but even love and keeping our family together may not be enough, I may need to leave the man I love.
That’s as bad as inviting an attractive woman into your bed.
Erica, loved your story – as it’s the same as mine! My gorgeous boyfriend tells me constantly how hot and sexy and wonderful I am and we can’t keep our hands off each other. It’s been that way since the day we met, five years ago! I watch porn and know he watches it, too. (Haha, I do watch the romantic stuff, though.) I spent the past 15 years of my love life (with my ex-husband and other men before) being terrified my partner would look at/fantasize about other women. It terrified me to the point of panic attacks. I also was overweight most of those years, and terribly unhappy with myself…
Flash forward to now, where I have lost the weight, have a wonderful job and keep myself healthy. My sex life has never been better and I know my man loves me dearly, but he also now feels free (as he didn’t in his marriage) to look at porn and fantasize as he wishes. Those women are not better than me, as you say, Erica – they aren’t me, and I’m irreplaceable. 🙂 They are just variety and pleasure. Nothing can come between the bond my man and I have, and he loves me for who I am.
Love is always a huge risk, guys. It’s always vulnerability, the chance that someone could hurt us and leave us and bring up the fear that we’re not good enough. If you fight that fear, trust me – you will find love like you’ve never known. Be vulnerable. Don’t let fear win. Believe you’re good enough now, as you are, and don’t be afraid to step out into the light.
OMG Erica,
Your boyfriend is super fortunate to have you. Every women should have your point of view. It is so rational and it makes perfect sense.
If I am with a woman, I don’t care who she fantasizes about and she shouldn’t care who I fantasize about. I mean seriously, who cares.
You guys have obviously never been left for the fantasy person. When that happens, you might change your mind.
I am the same Erica. I have crushes too. My boyfriend knew. But he knows they are only crushes. I am very sincere and loyal. I let him see beautiful ladies even in front of me. He was so open. He watched porn at night. I let him do it instead of hiding it from me. The problem is he started to cheat. When I found out that he cheated, I left him. We haven’t seen each other for two years but we still communicate. He still wants me back. He told me I should accept the reality that men cheats. hahaha He is crazy! I totally dumped him!
Good for you Khristine, make sure u never go back to him. 🙂 I bet his ego is so bruised because you realised u are way too good for him. Personally I wouldn’t even spend my time continuing communication with a guy like that. Having celebrity crushes or watching porn is totally fine IMO, but cheating shows that a person is trash and has no integrity.
Hi Twinkle..I also don’t want to talk to him it’s only work related that’s why I continue talking. We are working in the same construction industry. Sometimes he will tell me about his intention but “good” to say I really don’t like him anymore. Trust is gone. For me, when a man cheats he will always be a cheater. Better move on. I can forgive other mistakes because no one is perfect. But when it comes to cheating it’s hard to forget. How can you sleep with a man who had slept or sleeping with other woman? I might get a disease. Better stay away.
Look but don’t touch is a great rule and wonderful if it works for you both. But what about the newer options? What about “look and interact with” on live camera? What about “look and direct message” on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Messenger, SnapChat, etc.? What about “look and like” through secret accounts?
It’s not touching technically, but it still feels like cheating – or a path to cheating.
Nicole #2- I can relate to everything you said, from liking porn to thinking that male ‘strippers’ that don’t take everything off are a waste of time 🙂
BRAINWASHED. But you’re allowed to speak your mind if it doesn’t bother you that your man is fantasizing about fu**ing other women while you’re sitting in the Next Room or sitting next to him then have at it. Go ahead and let him f**k someone else in his mind, even when he’s fu**in you, because he can’t have that person and he is stuck with your ugly ass instead. Sure he says you’re beautiful…of course he does! He’s going to say that – they all say that no matter who she is or how beautiful or how ugly she is, they all tell their women they are beautiful… meanwhile they are jacking off to someone else. If this is okay with you, then good for you.
You may as well be in an open relationship. So hey, have you ever thought about swinging? It sounds like you may enjoy expanding your horizons a bit, trying out some other co*k wh y stop at just fantasizing about someone else or like your boyfriend, fu**ing yourself pretending it’s someone else.
I personally think you’re a stupid fool who doesn’t see it for what it really is…
…and btw, you’re theory of insecurity?
Perhaps these women ARE insecure about their looks. Well I can tell you from experience, they didn’t start out that way. It’s the man next to her who’s always looking for a better view, a better body, a hotter ass to fix his eyes on. A woman can only take so much of this until their beaten down to an insecure mess. (Speaking from experience ) from a fitness model’s mouth who has been on numerous magazine covers, someone considered extremely attractive – I make a living from my good looks and sex appeal. You think I don’t know who I am? How I measure up” ? It’s no secret that I’m gorgeous… I know this myself but none of that can stop the human psyche from tricking it’s self, when you constantly have someone you love sending you the message, “you’re not enough” it gets ingrained in your sub-conscious & you start feeling badly about yourself automatically. It’s human nature.
You’ve obviously become a master at believing rainbows, duckies and bunnies make the world go ’round & everything you’re boyfriend tells you is true, you’re it. You’re the one. You do it for him… believe what you want to believe rather than believing what you see – the reality of it which is: you don’t do it for your boyfriend, not entirely, he doesn’t want just you, you’re ass is boring and repetitive. You’re not enough..if you were he wouldn’t need porn. Know this.
And another thing, I highly doubt your mentality is that of your partners when it comes to your “mega crush”. I can’t imagine you sitting in front of his photos or website, vibrator in hand, “jilling off” to this guy, while wishing he was doing you, then getting off to him. – cuz that’s what your boyfriend does to other women he wishes he was fuc**ing. Women with better boobs, nicer, firmer asses, bodies, better skin, faces, hair, and nails than you!
Men who deny this are full of crap that’s why you don’t see them watching obese people having sex you don’t see them jacking off to obese ugly women now do you? It is about them it is about their looks and yours not being good enough they want more they want better.i it’s great you tell yourself that is not what it is I wish I could lie to myself like that to my life will be great living in a fantasy world, you and your sexy-enough-for -your-boyfriend, who whacks off to other women. Reality is a bitch so I can understand why you brainwash yourself. congrats on your own security, your boyfriend will eventually get tired of not being able to act out on his fantasies and he will cheat on you if he hasn’t already I guarantee you that why don’t you put a spy program on his computer and see what else he does or his phone I guarantee you he’s fu**ng around. Miss secure in your perfect body. Try putting webwatcher on your computer and his phone and see what that turns up and get back to us on that would you? I’ll bet you’d get a rude awakening.
Speak, Girl! Sad but true, what you are saying. If women had more self respect, AS A GROUP, we could make some changes, at least in our own mind controlled brains, if nowhere else. But then maybe force men to grow up.
Spot on havesomerespect and it’s the truth. So sick of hearing this, “womens and they’re self imposed insecurities. ”
Like it just stems out of nowhere. How could any woman possibly have healthy self image?? Youd have to be delusional.
It disgusts me, their double standards, and expectation of loyalty from us.
And their “need” for variety? How about you master sex with the one you have, before getting ahead of yourself?
Oops, here was the link.
Women respond physiologically to seeing sex the same way men do…more might feel guilty about it, but then again, so do some of the men. But that is socialization, not biology.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-24/living/o.women.watching.porn_1_arousal-candida-royalle-explicit-sexual-imagery?_s=PM:LIVING
Nicole, I once read an article where they had men and women watch porn for research. What the viewers did not know was that their eye movements were being tracked. The results were surprising to the researchers. Men spent most of their time watching the woman’s face. The reason is the very same reason that amateur porn became very popular, and even today, a lot of the porn is portrayed as amateur when it is not. Why? Men want to believe that the girl’s visual and verbal signs of pleasure are genuine and not faked. Men like watching sex but they like seeing a woman experiencing pleasure even more. Where do you see most of those signs of er pleasure? In her eyes, and face.
Women on the other hand spent most of their time looking at bodies, especially sexual parts. Again this was all the opposite of what they expected. This was a very old study, 20 or 30 years ago, but maybe I can find it on the net. Here it is or something similar.
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/gender_and_porn_where_men_and_women_look_first
This study makes perfect sense to me. Men want to make sure they are giving pleasure genuinely; women want to make sure he has the goods to give her pleasure, apparently. LOL.
That makes so much sense!. I admit I had a problem with porn. I always preferred watching the action down below and would hate when they’d take long focusing on the women’s face. Crazy.
RustyLH,
“Men spent most of their time watching the woman’s face. The reason is the very same reason that amateur porn became very popular, and even today, a lot of the porn is portrayed as amateur when it is not. Why? Men want to believe that the girl’s visual and verbal signs of pleasure are genuine and not faked.”
That’s funny because there’s nowhere in the world where female pleasure is faked more than in porn. In fact, female porn stars are always overacting, screaming their heads off. It’s ridiculous and utterly comical that anyone watching it would take it seriously and not be able to tell … it’s called acting for a reason.
Hence why I stated the point about amateur porn becoming popular, and then porn companies cashed in on that, making fake amateur porn…in other words, porn where the people are pros, but play it off as if it is not. Also, another type of porn started, where the girls are auditioning. Some of that is really the girl’s first time. I wasn’t so sure about some of it not being fake, but a friend showed me two videos of a girl who did her first, and came back a second time. The guy filming and talking to her lamented the fact that she wasn’t acting like she did the first time. In short, the first time, she was very shy and nervous. Now, after having done a lot of work, she came back, and was no longer shy and nervous. So clearly the first time, really was her first time.
Yes, porn acting was bad, and guys didn’t like it. Didn’t like the overacting, fake cries of pleasure. So the industry adapted. I am sure the pros still act, and a lot of the pleasure they portray is fake, but that is why there is still a huge market for the amateur stuff, and why guys are interested in the new girls…they like the more natural responses of pleasure…not the overacted nonsense. I would venture that when guys watch the pros, they know they pleasure is likely faked, but they are watching the pros because they are prettier than the amateurs, usually.
Now what’s interesting, is that a lot of the guys I talk to, lament how their wives act so differently than when they were dating. Remember how Evan noted that women marry a man, hoping he will change, while men marry a woman, hoping she will never change. I think the reality is that men know women will change in some ways, but they want women to never change in how they act towards him…they way she acts when they are dating. There is a HUGE difference, and the only way I can describe it is that women often act more submissive, more attentive, more shy, more demure, more affectionate, more soft…even if not all the time…but that can go completely out the window, over time. Over time, the relationship with my Ex felt more like being roommates. It actually happened fast, and a lot of guys complain about the same thing. It’s common. Jokes are even made about it…such as the joke about the bride giving the groom, oral sex before the wedding starts…he goes back to the room with his guys, smiling big and says that he just got the best BJ ever, and is marrying the woman that gave it to him. The bride, is back with her girls, and also smiling big, says she just gave the last BJ she’s ever going to give.
I also get the fact that guys do this also…become too comfortable…too complacent. I think men and women both have to do things in their relationship to keep the spark there. I think having a date, once a week…an actual get dressed up date…is a good idea. I think it helps to see the other person really make an effort to look good for you.
Anyway, the point was, I think that’s why guys like to see the new girls…not just to see a new body…they are more interested in seeing that shy, demure, way a girl often has about her on a first date.
@Sophia
Evan also said
Once again, I am not defending men. I am explaining men. Not every single man on the planet. Some men only have eyes for their wife. Some men are attracted to other men. Some men couldn’t conceive of having sex with a woman he didn’t love.
Sophia, not every man is like that. There are some who would never seriously think about having sex with a woman outside of a committed love relationship. If I insist on one of those men, I make my dating pool smaller. Another option is to learn to feel safe with a man who is in the majority of men, most of whom who won’t cheat on me even while physically desiring other women from time to time. The trick is to tell those men from the ones who will cheat.
The third alternative is to give up on dating and learn to be content being w/o a significant other. Having a dating or life partner is one part of life’s richness, but not the whole of it. In our culture we are not accustomed to thinking about the option of going solo and never having an intimate partner. This is a legit choice for some and there are resources and communities out there for people who choose that path.
I have no problem with a man who looks at beautiful women and appreciates them. I look at beautiful women all the time. I am amazed at the cornucopia of beautiful women everywhere in my city and think it’s like being a kid in a candy store for men (unfortunately I don’t feel women have the same luxury…..at least not in my city where eligible single women outnumber men). Beautiful men also turn my eye. Women who are highly jealous and insecure will have a big problem as I do believe men just have to look, that’s how they are made and there is nothing wrong with that.
But if I was on a date with a man, I would not stare at another man or find it difficult to concentrate on my date’s conversation at dinner because there was a hot blond 20 years my junior sitting at the table behind me. When I was out on the dance floor with said date, I would not find it difficult to pay attention to my date, and be constantly looking at the younger hotter women on the dance floor. This happened to me with the last (very good looking) guy I dated, he was 49 (I was 47) when this happened. You would think he’d have enough maturity to look in a discreet way and not ogle to the point that he made me uncomfortable. Needless to say, it did not last, he dumped me and continues to try to meet and date women 10 -20 years his junior.
A man can look discreetly and still be respectful to his wife, date, friend. Ogling younger hotter women when you are in the company of a woman you are having a date or relationship with is just plain rude and bad manners.
My ex-BF and I used to talk about what women were hot, and it did not bother me because I knew he was not going to cheat. I am confident enough to know that there are always going to be younger, hotter women than me and the smart thing as a woman to do is to accept this fact and also express appreciation for female beauty.
I am sorry for your experience but unfortunately if something like that was to happen to me I would probably never date again. I do suffer low self esteem already so if I am out in public and my husband gets interested in another woman or touches himself, it sickens me. I usually walk away when he starts doing it too much and I have started walking off many times. It basically tells everyone around him, he’s not worth my time and he looks bad in the end! Usually when I do this he screams out my name and I ignore him. We used to get into arguments but I find this gets to him more and tells him I am very uncomfortable. It is one thing to just see women and be friendly. It is another to make both her and me very uncomfortable. He had a sex addiction in the past too and I found him pants dropped and gettng off to an old friend. He said he was sorry but it is hard when you realize your man is addicted to women there mouths and sexuality. Dont ask why I didnt leave then. Like I said, I had insecurity issues of my own. He is 10 years older than me and still more immature. I guess I figured an older man would show more maturity. He learned much of his habbits in the army and is better so I guess I should be happy but now he feels like I control his behavior and mind. I just dont feel like much of what he did was appropriate and we are likely getting divorced soon. I didnt want to change him but I just feel it is disrespectful as I would if I were to flirt with every male waiter I saw. If I am married, we become one soul. What hurts one person, should hurt the other and that’s just how I feel. It is a touchy subject but it is something that we all need to discuss and resolve as a society!!!
@Susan61
“(unfortunately I don’t feel women have the same luxury…..at least not in my city where eligible single women outnumber men)”
So, what city do you live in again?
I notice beautiful/handsome/cute men, women and dogs, and encourage the man to do the same. If this leads to him cheating on me with one of them, his loss. Never happened so far, though. Same goes for strip clubs and porn.
@ Nicole #2 – love your comment! 😀
Hey, anyone read Eric Anderson’s book, The Monogamy Gap?. Open your mind and check it out before responding to this post, (you can peruse a few pages on Amazon), as it sheds a great deal of light on the subject. Anderson admits that he only writes for men and though his book deals mainly with men, he acknowledges that much the same may be said for women. Sorry Evan, but I disagree with the study that claims that women can be perfectly content with the same man forever…. we’re only socialized to think we would be content with that. The desire for sexual variety goes both ways. Here is a quote from a review of the book that sums it up: “Anderson suggests that monogamy is an irrational ideal because if fails to fulfill a lifetime of sexual desires. Cheating therefore becomes a rational response to an irrational situation”. He has some outside-the-box suggestions about how to re-tool relationships so they don’t end in breakup or divorce due to cheating. Much of the book is hard to argue with. I didn’t write it, but it is great food for thought. Marriage is failing in many societies worldwide and this book offers some hope.
These posts aren’t dated so I’m probably responding late into the thread. Good point, Jane, and interesting article. While I understand – and maybe even agree with it in theory, I just haven’t seen it play out well in practice. For either gender.
The arguments I routinely hear/read in support of Polyamory (or some form of it) come to mind. Are there a percentage of folks that this can work for? Sure. And I’m all for people doing whatever works for them. It wouldn’t work for me. Not built that way and like several others have already posted, would rather retain my freedom, discretionary time and esteem rather than submit to a relationship lifestyle that presents (at least for types like me) more insecurity and angst than what I would personally gain.
Maybe that makes me less “open” or sexually free. Maybe I can only hope to find a relationship where this issue only reaches gawking and excessive porn watching over time, but no actual cheating. I don’t have that answer yet. I’m not going to give up on love nor do I think all men are evil. I’m also not going to accept a relationship where monogamy isn’t chosen – and note I said chosen, because it is a choice.
Not an easy one, per se, especially for men. But a choice nonetheless.
You can’t just cherry pick the benefits from an exclusive relationship or marriage (support, companionship, comfort, regular sex, attention, etc.) and then claim that its irrational to expect exclusive sexual interest/fidelity. Again, that may work for some and if so, great! But I haven’t seen that to be the case.
I have some close colleagues and we’ve had some really interesting discussions about dating/relationships/marriage over the years. A few of them are (were!) obstinately in support of more open type arrangements and very passionate about why it was the better option. I said (were!) because all of them are back involved in exclusive relationships now for roughly the same reasons.
One of the “sexually open” colleagues was faithful during his entire 18 year marriage. And admits it was very hard at times but felt his marriage as a whole offered more to him than being able to experience others. It was only after they divorced (for reasons unrelated to infidelity) that he decided monogamous relationships were just not realistic or fulfilling over the long term, and he would seek a more open situation in the future.
He was able to experience more women sexually without any guilt, while getting some of his emotional/intellectual needs met as well. THIS was the more authentic way for things to be and there were plenty of studies and/or practicing parties to prove it! Everything was all ponies and rainbows for about two years. And then the novelty started to wane, as did the passionate advocacy.
In his own “it was fun while it lasted” words, the overall quality of those he found practicing his same lifestyle was less than what he would personally select for a long-term monogamous relationship. Say what?
(To his credit, he was up front about his lifestyle and did not deceive women looking for an exclusive relationship – not all would have that integrity).
As for the part of the “Monogamy Gap” article that states, “… and open relationships can wither jealousy scripts that lead to emotional distress in a relationship.” His comment? Simply not true. Because invariably someone would start to develop more feelings – feelings of wanting exclusivity, because it was one thing to be sexually open and free with others that didn’t evoke strong attachment, but entirely another to find someone in that circle that did.
Hmm … back to the age old dilemma that there are those you can be experience and be casual with, and there are those you want to marry.”
In the end he said he found that intense jealousy, arguments and angst permeated that “lifestyle choice” just as much as any other, if not more. So he returned to monogamy and is now engaged to a more traditional woman (as he put it) that he met online.
Hardly a case study but you get the gist. I don’t think the majority of men choose monogamy because it is the easiest, most thrilling option. They choose it because they can’t get the other good stuff from the alternative.
Those who think they honestly can, should.
It goes without saying that partners should keep a measure of independence, self-interests and self-care. (Other postings address this more) And if a couple has no problem engaging in healthy porn watching or looking at the other sex, awesome. I don’t see the inherent harm in it as long as both parties understand and keep within the boundaries that they need to feel secure.
When I’m in a relationship, I will frequently point out hot women (and occasionally men) to my partner when we are in a bar, restaurant or even a shopping mall! I think this “partners in crime” approach works very well as it then becomes a secret pass-time you share (ogling gorgeous people) rather than something he has to feel ashamed about. I think men greatly appreciate this sort of approach, and the confidence it implies on your part makes you very sexually appealling to him. I would never ask him to compare us (nor, to be honest, would I tolerate it if he said”yeah, her tits are much better than yours”) but in fact it often leads to the opposite scenario – the more often you say “check out that girl with the amazing ass” the more likely he will reply, “there’s some pretty great ass right here,” and give yours a squeeze.
Elaine said: (#5)
“you have no right to complain when a woman cheats. MEN are the ones who have made us this way. Do unto others, boys.”
I’ve been cheated on before. (And I’ve never cheated on anyone.)
So if I follow your line of reasoning, my fiancée has no right to complain if I cheat on her, because women are the ones who made me this way. I would just be doing unto my fiancée what other women have done to me.
I think your reasoning is flawed. You are responsible for your own infidelity, regardless of how many men (or women) have cheated on you in the past.
Elaine said: (#5)
“I feel bad for any man who might actually want a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner as I did all those years,”
As a 42 year old man who found a monogomous, loving, nurturing, supportive partner, I can offer you an observations.
If you were truly a monogamous partner, you wouldn’t try to use other people’s infidelity as justification for your own infidelity. You would respond to infidelity by leaving and continuing to search for a partner with more integrity.
Elaine said: (#5)
“It’s was okay for him to look, but I couldn’t”
Why couldn’t you?
My fiancée and I are both allowed to look at other people. We’re both allowed to dance with other people. We’re both allowed to flirt with other people (within reason).
As long as the same rules apply to both people, it’s possible to have a healthy relationship.
Elaine said: (#5)
“the words, ‘Damn, I sure wish I had her instead of you’ could be heard by everyone in the room, even though he hadn’t actually uttered them aloud.”
Everyone in the room doesn’t have telepathy. More importantly, you don’t have telepathy either. Therefore, that voice you heard was your own insecurity talking, not his actual thoughts.
Even if the men were ogling enough to be boorish (which was likely the case), your interpretation of their thoughts sounds incredibly insecure. Good partners don’t tolerate that degree of insecurity, because they don’t have to.
Nicole, (#2, etc.)
I find your attitude a lot healthier than Elaine’s (#5) or Sophia’s (#3).
helene, (#14)
Good advice, especially the final sentence.
Elle
thank you. I’ve struggled with this for a long time; I’m already a very mature aged woman & from a very early age was exposed to girly magazines being sprawled over my parents coffee table. I was only 8 when I learned anxiety for my mother; shame for my father when I did not know what shame was. My feelings then as a child, whether or not they affected how I think now, were innocent and evoked by fear my parents would split, and that my father desired another life.
I ask everyone that posted on this post & subject, if it is natural for a man to have desire for a beautiful woman, then why is it not natural that a man stop his desires so it does nor affect his family & his children’s lives?
Is this not using theories of evolution & justifying male driven desires as an excuse to laugh it off and continue regardless. If i counted how many good men I could have gone with but I didn’t because I was a mother and did not want to expose my children to, I would be rich.
Yes, women also stray & men are not always to blame.
Karl
no harm intended but insecurity is a word overused by men to push blame into women.
Sorry
I roll my eyes whenever women say all men are cheaters or only want sex with a variety of random young women. It’s not true — there are plenty of nice nerdy devoted guys out there. Most women just don’t want to marry them.
BUT, when I was younger and dumber I had affairs with married men and men in ltrs. Nearly every woman I know has been propositioned by, if not outright hooked up with, an attached guy in a years long relationship. And these were not blatantly sleazy player types – nobody ever would have guessed, bc they seemed like good guys that are real husband/bf material. In my case, they got to be with a woman way younger, more appreciative, and more sexually enthusiastic than their wives. It’s also very common to see middle aged married women let themselves go, get frumpy, stop putting out, nag the guy, prize the kids over him, and not make him feel appreciated.
Other women are at risk of being cheated on down the line if they too much fall into the stereotype you see in movies of the woman the guy is “supposed” to marry – generic girl next door type with generic aspirations, made him wait six months for sex, no original style or high sex drive but she’s nice and would be a good mom. Maybe she was hard to get. And, eventually, I believe men crave someone more real – not just hotter, but more intellectually challenging, quirky, and not predictably fitting the mold.
So Evan sometimes paints too rosy a picture of men, but this is never something I’ve worried about, once I felt I was with a good guy– you’d drive yourself crazy if you did.
It’s sad that you feel the need to blame the woman for the cheating husband, perhaps saying this makes you believe that it wont happen to you.
Yikes.
Trust me gal, “old” & “frumpy” will happen to you too. There’s no avoiding aging unless you throw in the towel early. We’ll see how well you do at being perceived as still the “more appreciative , sexually enthusiastic hot chic” at 45. No matter how hard you try.
Good Luck with that
There’s a big difference for most us between feeling attracted to other people and acting on those desires. There’s a big difference between stealing a glance at an attractive person when you’re with your partner, and ogling them. There’s a big difference between occasionally looking at porn and being addicted to it. Of course, we may often reign in our desires out of respect for our partners.
My happily married male friends have volunteered the information that the idea of sleeping with a stranger holds no appeal for them, although that probably doesn’t mean they don’t find other women attractive. Actually, I know more females who have either cheated, or thought about it, than I do men who have. I also think that people cheat on their partners for reasons other than simple physical attraction, although that is a factor.
There’s a big difference between fantasy and reality. For many of us, appreciation of other attractive people while we’re happily partnered, remains in the realm of fantasy. If my boyfriend tells me that he has always found Elizabeth Taylor attractive, that’s not likely to bother me. If it’s one of my best friends, that’s a different story.
Every since I was a teenager, I have seen attractive men (and sometimes women) and I always wonder and fantasize what it would be like to have sex with him (or her). I am in my 40s now and although I don’t love having sex w/ my partner, I still think about having sex w/ that cute new check out guy at the grocery store and every other cute/handsome man who crosses my path.
I am not my partner’s type and I know this. I lose on that count. He isn’t my type either. In a lot of ways. But, you work with what you’ve got, I guess…
I wonder why the title of this entry is what it is. Men looking at other women is not the same thing as men cheating; they may not even be related.
People look at other people. People notice when other people are attractive, whether you’re a man or a women looking at a man or a woman. There is no shame or sin in this. It’s as others have mentioned above: what matters is not whether men (or women) look, but whether they act on on that attraction. The vast majority of the time (given how many attractive people exist), they don’t.
So let’s relax about this. Eye candy is a pleasure, just as works of art and beautiful natural scenes are a pleasure.
If you see a hot guy near you, you’d at least take a few glances at him.
If you see a car crash in the middle of the street, you’d stare at it.
If you see a nerdy guy cruising down the street on his unicycle, you’d stare at him.
If you see a small cute dog skipping down the street, you’d keep looking and want to pet him.
Basically, if anything is hot…weird…strange…unusual…different, you’d look at it too. No biggie.
As long as your man doesn’t keep ogling at a woman in front of you, it’s no big deal.
But if you feel disrespected and you let him know it, he’s gotta stop.
Simple as that.
Chau,
You mentioned my issue with my man, my boyfriend of three years. He does it constantly IN FRONT OF ME ! It shows rudeness, low class and down right narcissistic qualities that I am really starting to abhor and frankly, I don’t want to accept. He is so defensive when I have brought it up in a light hearted manner or when I am so angry, I become so quiet , it freaks him out. It has happened three days this week and not only does he do this (esp. today) and I feel disrespected, I feel INVISIBLE. The fact that he invited me to a place or event and then treats me like I am not there….except the occasional glance or fake smile after he’s eye-fucked the chick. I am very attractive and am a good and fun person, but this is starting to really change my feelings for him. I love him but am so turned off. I make it a point to not look at men and believe me, they are alllllll around allllll of the time. (the beach , so on.) I would not ever make him feel less than. I wonder why I am not worth him not doing this kind of thing in front of me.
These men can be reformed when their love for their partner is true. Sadly, there really is no happy ending which I found out having been in this pathetic position myself. My partner ogled and gawked and lied and denied for three years until I had enough and went on a dating spree to see if A – It was his problem or B- I was the insecure, un confident female and it was mine. I found out a lot of very interesting things after years of therapy , which by the way we both sought as we truly love and adore each other. My partner was in a loveless / sexless/ emotionless marriage yet staying for his kids. He discovered porn, became addicted which led to his blatant objectification of women every single place he went. When I took drastic measures to test the His/ mine problem by dating , he lost his mind and low and behold it was proven it was his issue. The other men barely even noticed rooms full of pretty sexy women. My partner now left with the ultimatum change or be replaced suddenly has the will power and need to have his perfectly fine brain, tell his perfectly fine eyes to stop disrespecting and belittling his ” one true love” Two years on, I have a dream man. He occasionally gets taken aback with the type who even is us ladies would not be able to take in, but only for a brief second. I believe he was sick mentally and it did take hard work to overcome but by God he did a 360 degree turn around. Now… Here is the VERY sad part. He’s ” Fixed and his issue is now mine. You see, if someone stole from you every single day for three years would you really believe you could leave money and valuables around them again? Well, I can’t put all the beautiful sexy women in the world away to ensure my fear won’t arise as it still does every day were in a room full of hotties. So , even though he’s proved himself , I still
Wait to be let down and hurt. This angers me as I want to feel normal about him but I doubt I ever will.
You will get over it Wanda. In time. Just be patient with yourself. You have to understand that you have created a world in your head with all the information that has come to you through your eyes, ears, etc. You created an idea of love from all this information but you have to understand that YOUR idea of what love should be is in your head and your partner has a different image bases on HIS information. He is trying to make his idea match yours now that he has more information about himself and full marks to him for doing that. You need to stop tormenting yourself with these other women. If he has told you he loves you, has put in all the effort to be with you and tries to be the man you want then there is only one thing you have to ask yourself: is he an honest man? If the answer is yes then you need to KNOW that if he says he loves you and doesn’t want to hurt you then it’s TRUE. If he slips up and looks at other women, so what, he’s not perfect – but don’t fabricate some story in your head that he doesn’t love you because he looked at a pretty girl. THAT IS YOUR STORY, IN YOUR HEAD not his story in his head. He loves you – don’t keep wasting your time thinking otherwise.
Hi Wanda,
You wrote an article on my life. Do you feel normal now? I need to know how to feel normal. I still cry everyday. My husband is a really good man. He adores me but can not take his eyes off other women and flirt even if I am around. I feel disrespectful, embarrassed and belittle. I am pretty and good looking. Lots of men ogles me even when I am with my husband. I do feels very embarrassed about it. Anyway my husband promise to stop. He said he does not realize what he does. Do you think a man can really stop doing that when his wife is not around?
Women would be perfectly content with the same man forever, as long as he mixed it up in the bedroom a bit.
I can’t relate to that. I really loved my ex boyfirned of ten years and yet I still got bored with him in the bedroom. Women cheat more or as much as men do nowadays. I think some women like variety as well but are more quiet about it.
Keri, that’s exactly what I see going on around me. However, most men refuse to believe that or are able to ignore this. This is why we still have these kind of discuscusions on how women should understand men. Frankly, I’m bored. Men should try to understand women for a change.
I find it perfectly acceptable and healthy when a guy appreciates other women, but there are some basic steps he can take to ensure that I feel okay with it. Eg.
1. If you talk about other women being attractive, make sure you balance it out by occasionally telling me how attractive you find me, too.
2. If you ogle other women when you’re with my friends, they will think you’re a disrespectful dick.
3. A surreptitious glance is cool. Leering is not.
Ummmm, I have been dating a Man for 5 Months….. I guess after so long the testosterone reduces and the honey moon, lusting phase is over, then they start to leer at other women, of which makes a woman feel used and humiliated especially when they do t in front of your closest loyal friends you have know for years.
Please be mindful of your lust for variety after the chemicals dry up on one women as this behaviour YES, makes you a disrepctful dick and an embarrassment.
Yvonne, if that’s true and it bothered u so much, I certainly hope u’ve left the guy. U are lucky u found out after only 5 months invested in dating this guy. A good man wouldn’t openly disrespect n humiliate u like that. Have the confidence to leave if u realise u’re not with good men.
Contrary to what so many women think, good men are plentiful and u have a very good chance of ending up with one, as long as u don’t waste all your time with the bad ones. 🙂
Agree absolutely, twinkle.
Instead of trying to change a man when he “disrespects” you, dump him. He can’t disrespect you if you’re not around.
U’re right, Karmic Equation. People need to have pride and not tolerate open rudeness from their partners. Besides, when a man sees a woman staying even though she has been humiliated by his repeated rudeness, I don’t think he’ll value her highly.
As a minor point, 5 months isn’t even v long for a rship! If a couple is reasonably well-paired, they are often still in the ‘honeymoon’ phase at this stage and with strong lovey-dovey feelings. In fact, I have 2 brothers who’ve been with their wives for about 13 years and 7 years, and on the many many occasions we’ve been out together, I have yet to see my brothers openly leer at other women a single time, not even close. I’m sure they admire attractive-looking women occasionally, just not in a rude way. I just wish women like Yvonne would have more faith in finding nice considerate guys like these, and stop putting up with jerks.
Oh for God’s sakes! This article is insulting your own intelligence! That theory is so outdated for god sake‘s , you’re not an ape. Humans have evolved! This is just an excuse. Of course we all find others attractive, as a woman, I notice other men, we aren’t blind, but for a man to ogle is so tacky, and disrespectful!! I think that is by far the most humiliating thing a man can do to a woman in her presence. It’s even more embarrassing to have a man sit and stare at me when there is a woman with him, it makes me feel sorry for her, and extremely uncomfortable. And this bullshit that you can be a good father and go to strip clubs and watch porn is bullshit. How would you feel if you have a daughter and her husband is in strip clubs? What would you say to your daughter oh, that’s OK you have to learn to except it, that’s just how men are. Please!!!! It’s no wonder that women have grown to hate men, most women I know literally despise men and this is why!! Just the other night I was in a restaurant and this man with a massive potbelly stared at me the entire night and I finally got up and walked over to his table and asked him what the fuck he was staring at, that nobody was interested. It’s a extremely uncomfortable feeling!! This sort of behavior makes you look like a complete dick!!! No woman wants a man like that. I have had friends whose husbands behaved this way, Staring at every woman that walked by, making crude comments. My God do you realize how this makes a woman feel? And I get so sick of hearing men complain that their wives never wants to have sex, well if you’re behaving like this, no wonder!! how you treat your wife outside of the bedroom has a lot to do with what happened in the bedroom!! And if you don’t have enough respect for your wife or girlfriend to stop acting like a damn animal, then why bother getting in a relationship? This is why most women today do not even get into a relationship anymore. Women do better than men being single anyway. We can handle our own!!!
This is RARE behavior, not everyday behavior. You seem to have missed the memo. Definitely stay away from lecherous pigs and give a chance to normal men and you’ll be fine. Or, keep conflating men who masturbate with the scum of the earth and keep “handling your own.”
helene @14
I really liked your post. I think it’s far better to bring the looking at other people out into the open, and try to approach it like a mature adult rather than get upset about it. My boyfriend knows a few of the famous people I’ve got a crush on, and vice versa, and every now and again we’ll tease each other about it. It feels so much better than getting annoyed about it.
The security expressed in that actually seems to lessen the need to ogle.
I really do appreciate a guy who feels that discretion is the better part of valour though and doesn’t openly ogle or comment on other women’s attractiveness, not because he thinks you’ll shame him for it but because he’s being considerate. *That* is a good man 🙂
And I loved your last line! Comments like that make us feel like a million bucks!
Chau got it in one. It’s the respect thing. Again.
A former BF i had used to delight in pointing out women – particular body parts – he found attractive (often my friends) . I found it amusing to start with but the novelty wore off quickly – not least becuase he put more effort into describing their ”assets” than mine.
Similarly I can appreciate a nice male body as much as the next girl, but I would NEVER go on about it to a partner. Especially if they had any insecurity about their looks. it’s just plain mean.
As for the comment about men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me.
Susan @ 24
“men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me”.
Well that pretty much rules out pretty much every single guy for you so. I’d say nearly all men get off on porn; it’s just a matter of admitting it to you or not. I’ve never met one man in my life who genuinely doesn’t watch porn even a small bit, and I’d be reluctant to believe one who said he didn’t.
My husband, when were dating confessed he was addicted to porn. I was devastated! He did everything to quit bc he couldn,t bare to hurt me. He has been faithful not using porn. But is a struggle for him. But he feels it is morally wrong. He is the most honorable person I’ve ever known. Not always succeeding, but always trying. Married 10 years.
not true. In fact there’s a new crop of men who are choosing not to watch for many different reasons. Also Christian men believe it is wrong and have blocks on phones and computers to make it easier
Why do these Christian men need to “block” their phones or computers if they’re naturally not tempted?
This is the first time I have ever replied to any post on anything but I just could not resist. Tom is so wrong in what he just replied. I have been married 36 years and my husband has never looked at porn. doesn’t even want to learn how to use the computer to what you told her is absolutely wrong, there are so many guys out there that never had an interest in that never will whether there single or married.there are plenty of good guys out there that would never think of doing that, in fact been groups over the years trying to get rid of Internet porn and men have been the ones pushing for that. You are a very sad person thinking that thinks all men watch porn and all the rest are liars. This is just your own sickness to justify your behavior instead of getting professional help. Any woman that stays with the “boy” that watches porn is as sick as he is. real men don’t want to. EVER…it would be a dealbreaker for any woman with even an ounce of self-respect to stay one day with some boy that watches porn. It just seems like they do because the real men are mostly married and taken.
every single guy that you’ve never met one man in your life who hasn’t watched all liars if we have it is very very pathetic that you have never met a real man for like I’ve been married to and I’ve known plenty other ones to
Google “What percent of men watch porn?” You’ll discover that, in the first study that comes up, the answer is 64%. From the next article I found:
“Porn sites get more visitors than Netflix, Amazon, and Twitter in a month. Furthermore, around 70 percent of men and 30 percent of women watch porn, and that number has been found to rapidly increase every week.”
So you are entitled to your fantasy man who has no fantasies, but make no mistake: he’s in the minority.
Your husband very likely looked at porn when he was a teen.
Knowing you’re so against it, if his friends shared their copies of Playboy, he’s never going to tell you.
If you’ve been married 36 years, he’s middle-aged now. Male testosterone decreases a vast amount between his 40s and 50s, and was highest in his teens and 20s.
It’s very likely that his interest in porn dropped as he aged and is non-existent now.
Porn is not evil. Nor should it be the litmus test for faithfulness in a relationship. It always goes back to character. If the guy is a normal, trustworthy guy, he can consume normal amounts of porn without damaging his relationships. If the guy is predisposed to addictions or has low moral character, refraining from porn won’t make him more faithful to you.
Can you not love food or soap operas or Disney movies and still love your man? To a normal man, porn is the equivalent of women’s comfort food, soap operas, and Disney movies. So unless you believe all women who eat food when she’s depressed or watch soap operas when she’s bored, or Disney movies because she loves the show tunes, are predisposed to being bad partners, you shouldn’t lump all men who watch porn as abnormal or deviant.
Food, Soaps and Disney? WHAT?
Please don’t lump women together like that, and we won’t do that to you.
Check it~we are visual, just like you. We look, just like you. We may not access porn as much, due to time,and/or the fact that it is downright violent at times… but we do. We love naked, gorgeous men. And we look. And look. JUST LIKE YOU.
The 30 percent quoted above i believe is BS. You men HAVE to understand, we aren’t all that different, with the main exception of shame. We have had shame laid at our feet about our sexuality since day one. Many are reluctant to disclose or discuss. Believe me, we talk, but usually not with other guys about this. I’ve openly talked about masturbation, porn, fantasy, etc with many friends.
My instinct is that (and its an instinct) that men use the “seed” and “wired” excuse for the same reason we don’t see much penis on Showtime. Because of their own insecurities, and men mostly make the stuff. Thankfully, the tables will be even within a few years, and either you will squirm and live with it because it is your problem….or embrace it like we do, and appreciate the beauty of men.
(PS I must say this after stating the above, since when did this become a basic obligation? 25 years or so? What ever did we do to survive?)
Susan, see my post below. Do NOT believe what Tom told you. I am married for 36 years. My sister for 32 years. We found good men, knows it is there I am sure but never would have one minute of interest. Tom is just a boy trying to justify his sickness and mental illness for porn addiction. it makes him feel better. Same as this article, anyone who cannot control their thoughts is mentally ill and stunting on their growth. you find a real man and you never have to worry about them having any interest in porn. Promise. Of course he will come back and say that our husbands are doing it we just don’t know it, that’s part of the sickness. don’t buy into it, it’s not true. he has to make himself feel better just like the author of this article and the other women that responded saying it doesn’t bother them at all. They have to find a way to make themselves feel better even though they know they’re sick
Sheez Anne, it was just an innocuous comment on an internet blog — no need to go overboard in your medical diagnosis!
“I have been married 36 years and my husband has never looked at porn. doesn’t even want to learn how to use the computer to what you told her is absolutely wrong,”
Well okay then, I’ll accept that men who don’t even know how to use a computer (really?!) don’t watch porn. But wait a minute, I’ve never actually “met one man in my life” who doesn’t know how to use a computer! Lol. 😉
Nicole #2, Thanks for posting! I agree with you a hundred percent. When I first started dating my boyfriend, he was muscular and fit and this caught my eye. Four years later and 25 pounds heavier and I feel gypped. My hunch is that it behooves both of the sexes evolutionarily to find a fit mate. My hunch is that it also behooves women of the human species to find multiple partners during ovulation so that there is a true survival of the fittest in those little swimmers. That’s exactly what animals do and why they produce offspring by more than one male. I think there’s a lot of social nurturing that has taken women away from their nature.
Susan,
I know how you feel. I’m not a big fan of porn, myself. I “get” why it exists, I “get” what EMK is saying. But still. It makes me uncomfortable if a guy I am dating, is often looking at porn, talking about it, etc. It makes me wonder well gee, what am I to you, chopped liver?
I told my BF that if he’s occasionally looking at it, fine. I’m OK if he goes to a strip club with his buddies, I’m not HAPPY about it but I’m not going to cause drama about it either. But if it becomes a regular thing, well, that may be a problem for me. I’m sure that guys who occasionally look at porn or go to strip clubs or fantasize about hot women, do make good partners and parents, but when it starts getting to the point where it’s all the time, I draw the line there. Especially if it’s hard core porn, and ESPECIALLY porn with underage girls. That is an immediate dealbreaker and one where I might need to contact the authorities.
I’m OK if my BF looks at other women occasionally but if he goes on and on about it, I’m not going to be happy. I don’t ogle men in front of him, so he cannot ogle women in front of me. No double standards allowed in this establishment….. 🙂
@Evan #6: I didn’t mean to imply that YOU said it was okay…it was the men I was with who held the double-standard.
@Salsa #10: You state “The trick is to tell those men from the ones who will cheat.” Please tell me how to do that, because I’ve never met a man yet who has informed me he was going to cheat. What’s your sure-fire tipoff that he’s a cheater? Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah. My sure-fire tipoff is if he has a penis…so far I’ve been 100% accurate with that one.
@Karl #15: When you have been cheated on and lied to again and again and again and again and again…it gets old. Until I was 38, I was as monogomous as the day is long so please don’t try to turn this on me by saying I’m not a truly monogamous person. I DID “respond to infidelity by leaving and continuing to search for a partner with more integrity.” But how many times, honestly, does a person have to touch a hot stove and get burned before you say, “Geez, you think they’d learn by now, dumbass!” Doing the same thing 30 times and expecting different results is the definition of insanity…why doesn’t it apply here?
Regarding your statement “As long as the same rules apply to both people, it’s possible to have a healthy relationship,” I wholeheartedly concur. The men I have been with have made it clear, however, that I am not allowed to abide by the same rules, usually with a belt to the mouth or immediate dismissal.
And finally: “Therefore, that voice you heard was your own insecurity talking, not his actual thoughts.” You were not there. You did not see the looks of pity coming from the majority of people in that room. And where the HELL do you think insecurity comes from? As @Henriette #22 says: “If you talk about other women being attractive, make sure you balance it out by occasionally telling me how attractive you find me, too.” Would it KILL you to tell me you appreciate the effort I went to to look nice for you? I’ve never even had a BF “like” something I’ve posted on Facebook let alone tell me they think I’m pretty.
I wish people would stop spreading the fallacy of fidelity and teach us how not to care. THAT’S advice I could actually use!
@Elaine – Sorry you’ve been so hurt, sweetie. But fidelity is not a fallacy. About 20% of men cheat and about 14% of women cheat. That means the vast majority of relationships are faithful. And if you keep choosing men who cheat on you (or HIT you, as you’ve implied), the only thing that’s clear to me is not that all men are liars, cheaters and abusers, but that you have a TERRIBLE radar and questionable confidence for consistently choosing such low-character men. If you believe that good men and fidelity are impossible, I can promise you: no good, faithful men will want to walk in your door. Get thee to a therapist. There’s no good dating advice for someone who holds men in such low esteem.
After having been a self-sufficient no-pimp-or-boss prostitute for a few years during college, I can tell you 100% that all men cheat and there are no “good” men. Imagining a woman naked other than your wife for the thrill is pathetic. Women were not made solely for the sexual pleasure of men. The ones you speak of that come close desperately want to have kids with a certain one woman who they value and raise them with her, and their eyes and penis is hers regardless of how much attention it gets. You can’t justify objectifying anyone.
Actually Jenn, u can’t know “100% that all men cheat and there are no ‘good men’ “. Honestly not trying to offend u, but that sentence I just wrote is obviously true. O_O It sometimes feels like cynics envy more optimistic/idealistic pple and want to make others as cynical as they are. I dunno if it’ll comfort u to hear this, but I’ve grown up with some guys and girls who are such amazingly-wonderful pple with strong principles. I always knew I was blessed to know them, but that feeling intensifies as I get older and realised so many pple didn’t have my luck and so have much less faith in pple.
U sound like those guys who say All women are prostitutes and Only care about a man’s wallet, and that that’s their sole consideration in a partner. That’s not true (although I have nothing vs prostitutes; 2 consenting adults, so whatever). It’s true that most humans have these biological instincts programmed into us, but it’s nonsense to say that everybody has no autonomy over our decisions and are just slaves to instincts. Pple who know me would be shocked at some of my more pragmatic/mercenary thoughts, they often say I’m so innocent/idealistic, so I agree many pple aren’t as pure (especially in thought) as they may appear, but no, not all men cheat or are bad, and not all women are prostitutes/gold-diggers. I hope u can become more upbeat and hopeful somehow. Sorry if i sound like a Hallmark card. 🙂
I tend to agree. I would probably say most men cheat though. If a hot woman came up to a man for sex and he knew he wouldn’t get caught I’d say most would take her in a heartbeat sadly.
Elaine 28: I would agree with Evan’s advice about therapy, not because there is anything wrong with you, but because someone from the outside who is trained to help others could provide you with valuable insights on how YOU can take control in your relationships, at least your part in them; and how you can avoid becoming so hurt in the future.
Beyond that, Elaine, I hope it’s not out of my place to suggest that maybe it would be a good idea for you to take a little time off dating, and instead devote that time to seeing men as friends and as regular human beings with struggles, hopes, motivations, etc., as all of us do. Take the pressure off yourself and off others from the “romantic relationship” side, and enjoy getting to know people (men and women) in a much more relaxed way. I think that will restore some of your faith in humanity, including in men, which would give you a much more positive view of dating in the future, and toward men in general. That can only provide good outcomes.
@ Mia — #16
“And these were not blatantly sleazy player types — nobody ever would have guessed, bc they seemed like good guys that are real husband/bf material. In my case, they got to be with a woman way younger, more appreciative, and more sexually enthusiastic than their wives. It’s also very common to see middle aged married women let themselves go, get frumpy, stop putting out, nag the guy, prize the kids over him, and not make him feel appreciated. ”
Yeah. Shame on those wives who let themselves get all “frumpy” after having their alpha males’ enormous babies.
And you would know that they supposedly “stop putting out,” nag the guy, prize the kids over and not make him feel appreciated because…. the cheater told you these things?
Wow. An Ivy League education and you actually believe the most common lies that men tell women to get them to sleep with them.
@ 24, 25, 27, etc.
On Porn:
Tom, I wonder how you know that *all* men consume porn? I’m especially curious because I know of some enlightened men who choose not to use it and I also know some men who identify as sex addicts who go to support groups, etc. in order not to use it. For them, porn consumed their time, attention and relationships, had adverse consequences and often led to other sexual acting out that resulted in the loss of the partner they loved.
More and more studies (a balanced article summarizing some of them is here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201206/internet-porn-its-problems-perils-and-pitfalls ) are showing that porn is not only highly addictive, but that it’s use can negatively affect relationships.
Here is the thing about lust in general: it’s a sign of health to have some, but chasing it won’t quench it. In fact, the more you pursue, the greater the craving for it will become. Not unlike other addictions or how anger works. Therefore, it’s good to be prudent and try to reign in one’s passion (if they are strong already), rather than trying to free them up through the use of porn, strip clubs, etc.
Having been married to a man who was immersed in porn and affairs, I have to say that I think that it is healthy and normal for people to visually appreciate the opposite sex. However, if you get the impression that your boyfriend is getting a lot out of those visual exchanges and/or seeks to flirt with those beautiful women he encounters, pay attention to those signals and trust your gut over the advice of the article here. That may be one of the few clues you get if he’s very good at compartmentalizing his life.
^5 @sarahaha
I’ve researched this area and couldn’t agree more. Your comment is pretty brilliant.
@Evan #29: Where are you getting your statistics? According to the Journal of Couple and Relationship Therapy, “Absolute figures on this are hard to come by, especially as people who answer surveys on infidelity are notoriously unreliable in their answers! Statistics identify that approximately 60 percent of married men and 50 percent of married women will, at some point in their marriage, have an extramarital affair.” In my personal experience I’d have to say it was closer to 90% with the men I have dated, suggesting that survey respondents do indeed fib on this subject. And just because you haven’t cheated yet doesn’t mean you won’t. You might not, but you don’t KNOW that. I also think the fact that almost as many women now cheat is a fascinating testament to how sick and tired we are of you guys having your cake and eating it too. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And what a sad world we ALL now live in because you guys can’t keep it in your pants. Oh, and all six years of therapy did for me was to keep my hopes up that there were good guys out there. About 15 men later, I finally gave up.
@Elaine – I’ll take my statistics over yours:
http://womansavers.com/infidelity-statistics.asp
22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.
I’ll also take my positive attitude over your negative one.
So its OK for men to not respect what bothers a woman when she’s dating/in a relationship with him?
It is like saying ‘wow, I know this bothers you but I just don’t respect you at all’.
Whatever, I don’t believe on dating anymore, something is wrong with today’s men.
Women are bothered by a LOT MORE things than guys are.
If a man were to stop doing everything a woman was bothered by
1) he wouldn’t be a man and you’d find him “boring”
2) you’d only let him breathe, maybe not even that.
This is the reality. Women notice other attractive women as often as men do. So unless YOU stop noticing attractive women, you can’t blame a man for noticing.
Really, try this at the mall. You’ll notice the woman in the high heels and tight skirt; the woman with a belly shirt; the woman with the gorgeous hour-glass figure. Not because you’re “trying” to notice them, but you will. How can you blame a man for noticing when YOU can’t refrain from noticing.
Relax. Both women and men notice attractive women. Women notice, because we’re competitive creatures and want to see what we’re up against. Men, because they’re visual creatures. If it has boobs, he’ll notice.
Radiant1 said:
“It is like saying ‘wow, I know this bothers you but I just don’t respect you at all’.”
My wife is always late. Always. She was 35 minutes late to our wedding. I am a punctual person. So she knows that her inability to be on time bothers me.
I could certainly claim that this is about respect (that she doesn’t respect anyone else’s time enough to be prompt), but that would be a gross mischaracterization of reality. It has nothing to do with respect … and a lot to do with her time management skills.
Not only would it be inaccurate for me to claim that is somehow related to respect, but it would also create unnecessary conflict in our relationship.
Radiant1 asked:
“So its OK for men to not respect what bothers a woman when she’s dating/in a relationship with him?”
I can either decide that my wife’s chronic tardiness is okay (and choose to overlook it for the entire length of our marriage), or I can decide that it’s not okay (in which case I should have dumped her … and most of my other girlfriends … a few weeks after we started dating).
Either of those options is okay.
What I can’t do is choose to make her change.
Radiant1 said:
“I don’t believe on dating anymore, something is wrong with today’s men.”
Given what you have said, I believe you have made the correct decision. You definitely shouldn’t be dating.
Elaine, if you think it was closer to 90%, then it shows that you spent too much time with bad boys and not enough time with the good guys.
O.M.G. — we agree, Rusty! A toast is in order! haha
Karmic Equation, no, I don’t watch porn. It objectifies and exploits women by showing their every orifice and body part, meanwhile all you see of men is the butt pump. It’s degrading and oppressive to women. No thanks. Women give their own personal power away on their knees and for what… a buck. And the sad part is that they buy into MEN’S theories and are being trained on how to view sex today. I’m keeping my personal power. I don’t need some pervert to expand my imagination.
On the other hand, if you’re into it, more power.
Then you shouldn’t comment on a “pervert’s” blog or seek advice from him.
EMK watches porn. As I’m sure many many happily married and coupled up men AND women.
So much of this is about the pool you’re swimming in. If 90% of the men you know are cheaters, you’re swimming in the wrong pool. And if you’re using “what’s bad for the gander is therefore justified for the goose” as your bullsh!t rationalization for being a cheater yourself, you richly deserve to be in that pool.
In my circle of close friends (those close enough that they would tell me and I them about infidelity) in our whole lives, there has been not one husband or boyfriend who has cheated and only one wife/girlfriend, my boyfriend’s ex-wife. I am amazed and honored that this man is willing to trust me after that betrayal (we’re long distance so he can’t “trust but verify”) and my reason for being loyal to him isn’t because he’s loyal to me – it’s my personal integrity. If a guy did cheat on me, I certainly wouldn’t respond by deceiving the next (good) man I dated, I’d just dump the cheater and get an STI test and thank my lucky stars that I found out who he really was.
As for guys noticing attractive women and women noticing attractive men, I am pretty sure everyone continues to notice eye-candy even after they’re in committed relationships. I got to meet one of my SO’s college buddies last weekend and couldn’t help noticing that the man was beautiful. Didn’t make me want to trade in my boyfriend and it would have been awkward for all of us if I’d verbalized that observation. If the mere proximity of a pretty face was all it took to make me hurt my boyfriend’s feelings, I’d deserve to be dumped.
@susan 24
If that’s your take on men and porn how are you ever going to find ‘the guy for you’? I’d venture to say, either a man watches porn or he lies and says he doesn’t. What’s the big deal? Why limit yourself to such an unrealistic and rigid standard?
@Sarahetc…
Both Psychology Today and the field of Evolutionary Psychology have a lot of problems and their credibility is questionable.
Find a study in a medical journal the properly vets its sources and their methods, and that only accepts studies that have been peer reviewed. That would exclude Psychology Today.
What you linked to is not a peer reviewed study. It smacks of the same kind of garbage written by the doctor who claimed that vaccines caused autism.
Elaine #
You wrote, “Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah,” and later you said, “Would it KILL you to tell me you appreciate the effort I went to to look nice for you? I’ve never even had a BF ”like” something I’ve posted on Facebook let alone tell me they think I’m pretty.” You also stated that these same “nice” men have blatantly ogled other women, but told you that you couldn’t look at other men?
I’m wondering how the same men can be so sweet and sincere, yet never even tell you that you’re pretty, and then cheat on you. I don’t deny that there are cheaters and that they can be manipulative and sleazy, but most of the men you’ve dated?
Mia #16
I’ve got a news flash for you: middle-aged men can let themselves get plenty dumpy, and they can work long hours leaving their wives alone, and feeling unappreciated. But even if someone doesn’t look exactly the way they did 20 years ago, when you first married them, whatever happened to “until death do us part?” Good thing you finally realized that those married/LTR men were blatantly lying to you because they saw you as an easy mark.
susan said: (#24)
“As for the comment about men who enjoy porn can still be great fathers and husbands. Yeah well, maybe, but for me that is a total dealbreaker. A guy who wants to get off on porn is not the guy for me.”
Good luck finding a man.
At a stadium event held by Promise Keepers (a conservative Christian men’s group), 53% of the men had viewed porn in the previous week.
Over half of evangelical pastors admit to viewing porn in the previous year.
I suspect these conservative Christian men don’t openly share this information with their girlfriends and wives. Your odds of getting someone who doesn’t watch porn is worse than your odds of getting someone who is willing to lie to you about it.
For the rest of the men, the likelihood of them watching porn is higher.
Heather asked: (#27)
“It makes me wonder well gee, what am I to you, chopped liver?”
I can’t speak for the men you date, but I can give you my own perspective. My fiancée doesn’t care whether I watch porn. However, I would rather have sex than watch sex. If we’re having sex often enough, I don’t watch porn at all.
Heather asked: (#27)
“I don’t ogle men in front of him, so he cannot ogle women in front of me. No double standards allowed in this establishment…”
You and I view “double standards” very differently. You choose not to ogle men in front of him, but you require him to not ogle women.
My fiancée is allowed to watch porn. I am allowed to watch porn. There is no double standard. She chooses not to. If she decides she wants to, I am quite willing to direct her to websites with large supplies of free porn.
If a woman feels that it’s okay for her to ogle men, but it’s not okay for her boyfriend to ogle women, that’s an example of a double standard. (The same is true if you reverse the sexes.)
Elaine said: (#28)
“Every single man who cheated on me came across as the most honest, sincere, sweet, wonderful human being…sent me flowers, left me little notes, swore he’d NEVER do that to me, blah blah blah.”
The examples you gave are completely unrelated to honesty, loyalty and integrity.
How does giving flowers imply that a man won’t cheat?
How does sending love notes imply that a man won’t cheat?
How does swearing to be faithful imply that a man won’t cheat?
Some traits which distinguish faithful partners from cheaters:
Integrity
Empathy
Forethought
Self-respect
Respect for others
Honesty
etc.
I agree with Evan (#29). You have horrible radar for determining whether a man is a quality individual or not.
Elaine asked: (#32)
“Where are you getting your statistics?”
Evan’s statistics are consistent with the “American Sexual Behavior” study, a survey of 10,000 people. It’s also consistent with a more recent survey.
Unlike your number (which attempts to predict future behavior over a lifetime), his statistics reflect what has occurred. I haven’t been able to find any information how they calculated future behavior.
Elaine said: (#32)
“In my personal experience I’d have to say it was closer to 90% with the men I have dated, suggesting that survey respondents do indeed fib on this subject.”
Your dates aren’t a randomly distributed sample from the population. They’re the men you chose as boyfriends. It’s very strong evidence that you tend to choose poorly.
Cheating won’t get you better boyfriends. Choosing better boyfriends will.
Sarah- it’s not that the cheaters came right out and said that , but it’s a common refrain you hear from married men in general. Also, if you simply take a look around, very few married women look good past 40 – it’s like they’re actively trying to look like bad, getting butch haircuts, packing on 50 pounds, wearing frumpy clothes. You can’t complain that your guy is looking at other women if you make no effort to look fit and decent. And while I wouldn’t do it again, nor have I done it recently , I never felt bad about the affairs I had when younger. I had faced a lot of rejection from single men my own age and it was nice to get attention and compliments and love letters from older married guys. I felt angry that their wives were no better than me, yet I was forced to live a lonely life of always going home to an empty apartment. It was and is grossly unfair. Evans fidelity stats sound way too low, based on all my friends’ and acqaintances’ tales of misbehaving attached guys.
I totally agree, Not only is it “normal” for men to look at porn, so many men look at it that what would qualify as deviant behavior would be not looking at it.
Actually, according to the link below, Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men in their 20s who had never looked at pornography – but couldn’t find any:
🙂 Not a big deal. I don’t get why some women would even care whether or not men watch porn. I am sure a large percentage of women does it too.
It only matters if a man is looking at porn to the extent that he is more interested in whacking off to porn that having sex with you. That’s where the problem lies. I’m certain my husband looks at porn from time to time. Thankfully that’s not his only hobby, and thankfully he’s still into having sex with me. Therefore, I could care less. I have looked at it too. Frankly I find it extremely amusing and too silly to get off on. I would much rather be having sex than watching it.
It is completely Abnormal for a man to look at porn. You are really twisted on this issue. I have been Married over three decades so have many of my friends and they never had that problem before with their man. You have a lot of self-respect issues.
@ Mia #38, yeah, I, too, have been propositioned by married guys, I mean who hasn’t? My experience has been that most of these men had really cool, great-looking wives that took good care of themselves. Of course the guy would come out and give a woman he’s hitting on all the right BS: my wife doesn’t understand me, we haven’t had sex in years (gee if I had a nickel for each time I heard that last one…) “This is actually good for your husband if you sleep with me, because then you’ll go home to him happy, which will make him happy in turn”… Everyone recycles the same old ridiculous lines that do not make any sense. So, no, I would absolutely NOT make this the wife’s fault. One hundred percent of the time, it’s the guy. Just like some people physically cannot steal and others can, some people can easily physically cheat, but the majority cannot. For most guys, cheating will never cross their minds no matter how bad their marriage is, they just aren’t wired that way. My ex had many flaws, but cheating just wasn’t one of them. It was something that just never occurred to him, period. A lot of men are like that. And for those that are not — that think nothing of physical infidelity — it’s not their wives’ fault. It is those men’s character flaw. Some people abuse alcohol and or drugs, some people abuse their wives, these guys screw around. That’s what they do. if they leave their wife and marry a hot younger woman, a few years down the road they’ll cheat on that hot younger woman too. I really have no tolerance for guys like that. Being propositioned by them mostly made me mad because I really dislike being used, it just gets my hackles up. Scumbags 🙁
Mia 38: “I never felt bad about the affairs I had when younger. I had faced a lot of rejection from single men my own age and it was nice to get attention and compliments and love letters from older married guys. I felt angry that their wives were no better than me, yet I was forced to live a lonely life of always going home to an empty apartment. It was an is grossly unfair.”
Hmm. Where to even start here…
1. I’ll try very hard not to be judgmental about your affairs, because different cultures have different viewpoints on affairs (e.g., the French, and Dan Savage’s points that Evan highlighted on his blog once). But if you want to go down that road, you have to recognize that an affair is an affair, okay? So there is no point in your being angry and ranting about how ugly the wife is. He is NOT going to choose you over her. Face it.
2. We live in America, not France. Much as you may wish it to be otherwise, affairs can ruin marriages and families here, and cause a huge amount of heartbreak to all involved. Ask yourself how comfortable you feel causing THAT to other human beings.
3. How do you know that you’re better than the wives of the men you cheated with? Do you know them personally? It seems that the only way you judge women, based on all your remarks, is by their looks. For the record, men do value character as well. And I’m almost certain that these wives are better than YOU in one key way: they are not nearly as disdainful toward other women, especially married and older ones.
4. You’re going to need to improve your self-esteem so that you don’t have to depend on men complimenting you to get your “fix.” It starts by being happy with who you are. Here’s a hint: you’ll start feeling better when you stop comparing yourself to others. Believe it or not, judging yourself as better than others (because you’re beautiful and everyone else is a dog) is not a sign of self-esteem. A happy and assured woman doesn’t feel the need to compare herself to others, whether for better or for worse.
5. You’re going to need to learn how to be happy living on your own. Everyone has had the experience of living alone in an apartment before. Make it a good experience. I’m sure you have the means to decorate it as you want and to fill it with the things you enjoy.
I do think you’re going to need to radically change your thought patterns in order to be happy with yourself and your relationships. Now, you’re only causing pain to yourself and potentially to others.
Fair enough Sarahrahrah I set myself up there for claiming that all men watch porn, however, I suspect the enlightened men you know who claim not to watch it know your opinion and told you a few porkies (so you’d think they’re enlightened!).
I think it’s reasonable to say that excessive porn consumption can have negative effects but as others have said Susan is probably deluding herself if she thinks she’ll find a man who never looks at it. Most of us use it like fast food; it’s ok now and again if used as part of a balanced diet 🙂
I like your analogy Tom!
@Tom10,
I can imagine there is validity in the studies you cited on ‘short term mating strategies’, ‘avoiding commitment’, and ‘gender differences and sexuality’. If I were a man, I’d study those theories and confirm my own world view. After all, it’s the oldest game in the book isn’t it?
But as a woman, I’d rather do research on how to build meaningful and successful families and relationships.
I believe men are cheaters in this era because some women allow them to be cheaters. Women buy into men’s theories about sex because their desire is for the man and a relationship. That was deemed so in the garden. They understand that men are wired that way because they have more sexual impulses during the day. Women accept that men are just ‘weak in that area’ and can’t ‘control themselves’.
Women on the other hand are socialized differently because they carry the burden of childbirth. If wise, she’ll only mate with a ‘strong’ man who’ll protect and provide. But in 18 months, he’s bored and she now has to perform tricks to keep it hot. If not, he’s out. Back to the drawing board.
I still think women have a lot of personal power when they don’t tolerate B/S.
Pam, I agree completely. It’s all just old fashioned belief systems being force fed to us. Women and men are just as equally attracted to a “variety” of the opposite sex, it’s no harder for a man to be loyal. It’s a cop out to believe the bullshit that men just can’t help themselves because they are biologically designed that way. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to back this.
And BTW, I counsel many people and hands down way more women cheat than men do BUT women are less suspected of doing so so they don’t get caught and are less likely to admit it publicly (so all these poll statistics quoted here isn’t accurate). I’m sure less women would cheat if their husbands focused on them a little more instead of fantasising over porn.
In my EXPERIENCE, porn is one of the leading causes of marriage breakdown.
Perhaps, what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog, but as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife. Unless she is married to a wealthy man, with legal protection in case he decides to cheat/leave her for a younger woman or dies. The liability of raising children by oneself is huge, same as liability of time investment that usually goes into maternity/childhood. Forgive me for being so frank but as glue of trust that used to hold society together falls apart – this seems to be the only rational though politically incorrect choice of words.
Really, how low did we fall.
I would have to agree to some degree with you on this. As in a relationship sense what they’re offering isn’t enough for me. Also much to anyone’s surprise the behavior of these individuals isn’t what it once was. This has left me with a burden as well because I’m not attracted to most men anymore.I have a gentleman behavior attraction and this doesn’t measure up. I compared it to something you throw in the trash can when having this exact conversation the other day.. Luckily for me I’ve found someone whom is older and does know what true appreciation is for me…in the end he wins my heart for his consideration for my feelings without me having to mention it. There are men out there who have this ability in them but they are hard to find.
Wow…pretty heated debate!
I’ll try not to puck apart others’ comments, but I have some strong opinions.
There is nothing wrong with legal porn. There is nothing wrong with the men who look at it! There is nothing wrong with women (myself included) who look at it!
Watching porn is not cheating, and it does not make you a cheater! I have never cheated though I watch JUST AS MUCH porn as any man i’ve ever been with. Even more than some…I have an underactive imagination. That’s my excuse 😉
Beautiful women are beautiful. They are nice to look at…Looking at them makes men feel good. It even makes me feel good! Good for them those lucky girls! Hating a man for looking or hating the girl for being gorgeous doesn’t make you any more attractive. In fact…It might make you an ugly person regardless of how you look. hatred is ugly.
I was cheated on by my husband with my brothers girlfriend and I still manage to see good men for what they are and appreciate them. I will never PICK a man like my ex-husband. That’s on me. If I get cheated on again I will move on AGAIN and remain the kind of person I am. Becoming an asshole because I have encountered assholes just makes me an ASSHOLE. I don’t have a right to be an asshole just because someone else was to me. I take pride in being a good person and always will. Besides…I got to walk out of my marriage with my dignity intact. Though we are friendly and I will always wish him the best, my ex was kicked out with no dignity. He has made it clear to me even long after we separated how much he regrets what he did. I would never want to live with those kind of feelings. I don’t even want HIM to feel that way.
We are all human and it’s about time we all learned to accept people, stop making unrealistic demands and treat others how we want to be treatedand not how we have been treated.
Of all the posts, yours is the only one I wanted to reply to. Love it. Spot on. I think you and I would be pals. 🙂
Thank you, that was a beautiful comment. Live as you feel you should, by your own standards and beliefs and just do what you feel is right for you and makes you feel good. No person should make you unhappy, if he does, leave him. Women complain about men all the time, why to complain, just change the situation. Be independent, have your own friends and hobbies and leave behind all people that don’t put smile on your face. Life is beautiful and I want to be a good person for myself first. Women overthink everything, there is nothing to think about – he did what he did or he didn’t do what he didn’t do. You cannot change it but you can change your reaction.
Helen, you make some helpful points. However, i have done a million things alone and have an active social life and career, so its not like I’m unable to enjoy being aolo. I should clarify that when I make fun of a woman’s looks, it’s either because she has something I want that she didn’t work as hard as I am working to get, or she just has an unpleasant personality. I did know the wife of one married guy, and she was very spoiled and materialistic, which made doing her husband in the backseat of their car all the more fun. I think it can be hard for people who have not faced as much rejection to understand how much it can warp someone who is an otherwise loving, open person, accepting person who only wants a slightly cute, nerdy guy who loves them but just got rejected year after year, constantly, nonstop, and they naturally develop a selfish, cold streak. Some of us are too fragile to put up with this repeat abuse (not literal abuse) which is why i get why Elaine feels the way she does- yes, her radar is way off. But she is probably a really good hearted person who got the door slammed in her face one too many times and it caused emotional trauma. I disagree that her response should be cheating – she either needs a nerdy guy who has too little game to cheat, or should just give up at this point.
DinaStrange said: (#43)
“as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife.”
It also makes more financial sense for a man to become a major-league baseball player instead of a long-haul truck driver … provided you’re willing to completely overlook the difference in market demand for the two jobs.
In addition, you’re glossing over the difficulties inherent with an illegal job. Not only can you end up going to prison for doing the job, you also are unable to report your income, which leads to income tax fraud. The IRS gets suspicious of people who have wealthy lifestyles and no reported income.
It’s also not particularly compatible with motherhood. I suspect it’s difficult to maintain a career as a high-class escort while pregnant or nursing. Furthermore, if the baby’s father wishes to contest custody, he will have strong motive to report your activities to the vice squad. A prostitution conviction will go a long way to ensuring he gets sole custody of your child.
DinaStrange said: (#43)
“what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog,”
They’re more likely to find it completely silly.
Kenya, (#39)
Good find. I’d forgotten about that study.
Such a tough subject! But I agree with everything you said. Just like I believe in evolution, it’s science, I believe men’s natural instinct is to spread the seed. BUT, I also believe you have control of oneself, and if you’re with someone who you love and are completely compatible with, then you should easily be able to make the choice of staying faithful.
@Nicole 35
Psych Today is a popular press publication but most articles are written by folks who read peer reviewed literature in their field and write with that in mind.
Below are several links to peer reviewed literature on the impacts of porn viewing. They are mostly geared towards the impacts on adolescents, but some is towards adults and a lot of the gist is generally applicable.
You will find porn use is linked to: less progressive gender role attitudes, lower body image, less partner sex, depression, more sexual risk tasking, sexual harassment, a more casual attitude regarding sex, and selling sex. Whether these are negative depends on your particular world view. Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).
I am sure there is a lot of research if you actually choose to look instead of simply dismissing something out of hand because it does not fit with your world view.
@Tom
Back to the topic at hand, I agree that porn won’t be clear problem for everyone, but these studies maintain it takes a subtle toll even on healthy folks (See the 2008 Journal of Sex Research article below). Some fast food and lots of sugar now and then are not a clear problem for most people, but they have some negative consequences no matter how modest the amount.
J Adolesc. 2011 Aug;34(4):779-88. Epub 2010 Oct 2
In a Swedish survey 2015 male students aged 18 years participated. . . Frequent use [roughly 1 in 10 in the study] was also associated with many problem behaviors.Ӭ
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19628142
J Adolesc Health. 2009 Aug;45(2):156-62. Epub 2009 Feb 20.
J Geriatr Psychiatry Neurol. 2008 Dec 10. [Epub ahead of print]
Longitudinal analyses showed that early exposure [to pornography] for males predicted less progressive gender role attitudes, more permissive sexual norms, sexual harassment perpetration. . . Early exposure for females predicted subsequently less progressive gender role attitudes. . .
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18569538
J Sex Res. 2008 Apr-Jun;45(2):175-86.
A symmetrical relationship was revealed between men and women as a result of viewing pornography, with women reporting more negative consequences, including lowered body image, partner critical of their body, increased pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films, and less actual sex, while men reported being more critical of their partners’ body and less interested in actual sex. .. Only 2% of users met the threshold of compulsive use
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186123
Arch Sex Behav. 2007 Aug;36(4):588-98.
. . .participants who reported to have more online pornography viewing were found to score higher on measures of premarital sexual permissiveness and proclivities toward sexual harassment . . .
Cyberpsychol Behav. 2005 Oct;8(5):473-86.
Those who report intentional exposure to pornography, irrespective of source, are significantly more likely to cross-sectionally report delinquent behavior and substance use in the previous year. Further, online seekers versus offline seekers are more likely to report clinical features associated with depression and lower levels of emotional bonding with their caregiver.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12598058
Womens Health Issues. 2003 Jan-Feb;13(1):39-43.
Four out of five had consumed pornography, and one-third of these believed that pornography had impacted their sexual behavior. . . As the use of a condom was low (40%) when having anal intercourse, the consequences for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases should be considered.
David T #48
What’s even more troubling to me are the studies on the same site that show an “…overall significant positive association between pornography use and attitudes supporting violence against women.”
Here’s another article on the subject. I recall going to the same Women Against Pornography presentation that Gail Dines refers to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography
I myself love porn. I love women. Dressed. Undressed. Halfway undressed? 🙂
However, I LOVE women, and violence? Please. No place for that.
There are also men who are violent and abusive towards women that do not view porn. I’m sure that back in the olden days, when men were considered so misogynistic – I mean way before porn- and women were getting beat, it wasn’t because everyone was blaming porn. It’s because of an attitude.
I dont understand why so many women are bother with men getting chemical high watching other women.I am in relationship and still watch attractive bodies be it men or women n yes i do get chemical high watching it.
A high like what comes with addiction?
Karl R. @ 46 stated ” In addition, you’re glossing over the difficulties inherent with an illegal job. Not only can you end up going to prison for doing the job, you also are unable to report your income, which leads to income tax fraud.”
All income, legal and illegal, must be reported —
From IRS Pub 17:
Illegal activities. Income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Form 1040, line 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule C-EZ (Form 1040) if from your self-employment activity.
in my experience, the only guys who think that “all guys look at porn” are the guys who look at porn. they justify their behaviour as normal. but as i understand it, it’s fairly normal for guys to look at porn up until the age of about 25. it’s like the belief i see amongst gay men who think they can convert any straight man, given the chance.
i have seen nothing but adverse behaviour from guys who are into porn over the age of 25, who are still into it into 40’s. they are frequently underperformers in the bedroom, they generally have less respect for women, and have more problems with women in long term relationships. they often are not aware that they have less of a respect for women and monogomy but other women who experience their energy are aware of it.
that’s just my experience.
Exactly my experience: Men who use porn regularly are clueless about making love and really good fucking, and they are totally unaware of how their habit has given them a creepy and ugly vibe that the most sensitive (and therefore the most sensual/sexual) women can smell from a mile away. This guy pretty much sums it up for me: It is from a book called “Wild at Heart” by John Eldredge.
The whole paragraph is such: “Why is pornography the number one snare for men? He longs for the beauty, but without his fierce and passionate heart he cannot find her or win her or keep her. Though he is powerfully drawn to the woman, he does not know how to fight for her even that he ‘is’ to fight for her. Rather, he finds her mostly a mystery that he knows he cannot solve and so at a soul level he keeps his distance. And privately, secretly, he turns to the imitation. What makes pornography so addictive is that more than anything else in a lost man’s life, it makes him ‘feel’ like a man without ever requiring a thing of him. The less a guy feels like a real man in the presence of a real woman, the more vulnerable he is to porn.”
This post is so true! But not just true of men, I am in a relationship with a guy and yet I get aroused and notice men daily! I enjoy porn from time time. It does not mean I will cheat on my partner as I am happy and love him but cannot ever say never, who knows further down the line, I would like to think I wouldn’t but life is funny. The point is women ‘hunt’ just as much as men do, I can freely admit to this!
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I guess what I’m saying is that I just find the idea of my partner watching porn really offputting. I am realistic enough to know that most men do it at some point but I’m kind of with Karl here – if you’re happy with what you’re getting you’re less likely to be happy watching what you’re not.
Would I be happy to be with a guy who has a pile of magazines beside the bed, no. Would I want to watch a porn movie with a guy? no thanks.
Would i be happy for him to be going to strip shows whatever. No not really. Call me unrealistic and conservative if you like but no I’m not HAPPY about that at all. I ACCEPT that some of this stuff is reality of life. As I said I certianly appreciate the human form and would expect any partner to be the same. No more no less.
yes part of this is my own views on the pornography industry. But also, to me it does kind of feel like cheating. A guy who wants to get his rocks off watching a woman other than me is putting his bits (if not his brain) out there for someone else – real or imagined. I’m not saying its infidelity per se, but its too close for comfort for me.
Promisekeepers love the porn line. And I know that many Christian men struggle with this, but often becuase of the other restrictions and taboos around sex that they are facing (i have personal experience of this with a number of christian male friends). Thats a whole other issue.
but I also think it CAN be addictive, it CAN be a slippery slope and the really right wing bit of me says ”why would you even go there”.
I am amazed that virtually no other women have agreed with me on this.
Susan
I agree with you!! I was married for 20 years and my ex and I had a great sex life together. If he was into porn then it wasn’t around me. If he had been I agree it would have been very off-putting to me.
I read an article recently on MSN regarding how porn can damage relationships and while I can’t quote it, it seems pretty intuitive that it could induce hurt feelings in the woman. Thank you David T for referencing studies Throughout my life women friends have confided they are hurt by their guys blatant interest in porn when they are right there in front of him being ignored.
I definitely think it can become addictive and has the potential to erode and damage relationships.
a) This post was about men who still look at other women in all forms, not the merits of the porn industry. Does anyone want to suggest that good men can’t continue to appreciate the beauty of other women as long as they’re not acting in a highly embarrassing, inappropriate way? No? Good.
b) The fact that porn can become addictive and has the potential to erode and damage relationships makes it just like, say, alcohol. Tens of millions of people use it in moderation, and yet there are some that abuse it. You don’t ban something that provides pleasure just because it CAN be abused. Everything in moderation. This absolutist thinking is not helping anybody.
Well said, as usual. I don’t think porn hurts those who choose to watch in moderation, once in a while – any extreme anything *can* be harmful. Your post, as well as the feed, is interesting to me personally because I watch porn occasionally, and wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend did. But if he were to oogle or leer at another woman in my presence it would of course upset me – not because it’s wrong to look at a pretty woman. It comes down to RESPECT and if he is sensitive towards me or not. Bottom line. I have a realistic self image (maybe a little critical of myself), good self esteem, confidence, and I understand we ALL (men and women alike) love to look at beautiful people. Yet, I still find myself feeling threatened in a NEW relationship if my man “checks out” other women and I realize this is my issue to deal with – its because I am comparing myself to them, not that HE is. I think jealousy/insecurity is a choice – and I struggle with my “gut” reaction and have to use my head to overcome it. This article and post is great.
Susan #55
I agree with you also, although my objections have more to do with the industry itself. It’s a business that mistreats and objectifies women, it has extensive problems with drug use/addiction and the spread of HIV (lack of condom use), the participants keep getting younger, (many are teenagers), and come from abusive backgrounds. Even older girls are often presented as underaged. Just try googling “teen porn.”
I look at good looking men, so I dont see anything wrong with men looking at good looking women. I dont think that women and men are that different in the effect of a sexually attractive person of opposite sex. The difference is that there are more sexy women than sexy men.
David T said: (#48)
“They are mostly geared towards the impacts on adolescents, but some is towards adults and a lot of the gist is generally applicable.”
More specifically, of the 7 studies:
4 studied adolescents and/or pre-adolescents
1 studied young men in Hong Kong
1 studied young women visiting a family planning clinic
1 studied men and women in the U.S.
Unlike you, I don’t consider the studies of adolescents to be generally applicable. For example, you note the correlation between porn viewing and “lower levels of emotional bonding with their caregiver.”
Given the ease with which parental controls can be installed on computer, I would expect a causative link between a caregiver who doesn’t bond with their child and increased access to porn.
David T said: (#48)
“Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).”
Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.
There’s a significant correlation between race and criminal convictions. Should women avoid dating black men because of this correlation? Or should they avoid dating men with certain criminal behavior regardless of their race?
More porn correlates to “less actual sex”
Looking at the one study of men and women, they indicated a correlation between increased porn use and less sex. I have actually observed this within my own relationship.
My fiancée has a couple minor chronic conditions.
As her symptoms increase, her desire for sex decreases.
As her desire for sex decreases, we have “actual sex” less.
When we have sex less (less than I would like), my porn use increases.
Not only is less sex the cause, but it’s a cause that arises from the person who doesn’t watch porn.
And the solution that we’d both be happiest with is relief of the symptoms.
Even the definition of a problem can vary from person to person. Twelve years ago, I dated a woman who wanted to have sex twice per month. I’d be willing to bet that she views a partner who wants “less sex” as a solution, not a problem.
More porn correlates to “pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films”
Many of us see variety in sex to be a good thing. I personally believe that the kama sutra makes a far better source of novel sex acts than porn, but I wouldn’t reject an idea just because I saw it in a film instead.
The best sex partners (male or female) are the ones who are willing to try new things. Particularly the ones who are willing to try things (and even regularly perform acts) that don’t necessarily do much for them, but really turn their partner on.
I don’t perform oral sex on women because it’s a major turn-on for me. I regularly perform cunnilingus because my partner enjoys it.
No woman has ever bothered to ask me whether I learned about cunnilingus from an ex-girlfriend, from a sex manual, from the kama sutra, or from porn. I suspect it doesn’t matter that much to them.
I’m considered a good sex partner because I’m willing to perform a sex act that my partner loves, one which doesn’t do that much for me, and one which I first learned about from porn. Why do I suddenly become a bad sex partner if I request a sex act which I enjoy, which might not do much for my partner, and which I may have learned about through watching porn?
Variety is a good thing. This only sounds like a bad thing if someone fails to respect their partner’s boundaries. If someone doesn’t respect your boundaries (in sex or anything else), dump them for that reason.
More porn correlates to “lowered body image”
Regardless of whether you watch porn, it’s in your best interest to make your partner feel good about his/her body.
My fiancée’s body image has improved since we started dating (even though I watch porn). I make a point of regularly complimenting her appearance, both in general and specifically. My actions correspond to my compliments. It’s blatantly obvious (to her and others) that I find her attractive.
As my compliments increase, her body image improves.
As her body image improves, she feels more sexy.
As she feels more sexy, she’s more comfortable about being naked and having sex.
Enlightened self-interest at work.
If your partner makes a deliberate effort to make you feel better about yourself, it’s going to have an effect. And since my partner feels appreciated, that eliminates a major cause of affairs and divorces.
susan said: (#55)
“Would i be happy for him to be going to strip shows whatever. No not really. Call me unrealistic and conservative if you like but no I’m not HAPPY about that at all.”
My fiancée’s ex-sister-in-law was unhappy if her husband glanced at another woman. Her jealously was the cause of their divorce.
On the other end of the spectrum, I’m acquainted with a couple who have an open marriage. They find it acceptable that their spouse has sex with other people.
You need to find someone who you can be comfortable with, and who will be comfortable with you. You can’t influence what other people will be comfortable with, but you can influence what you’re comfortable with. If you’re eliminating too many options by being inflexible, you might want to consider changing.
I hear what you’re saying Evan. I wasn’t meaning to merit or merit the industry. Just my opnion on how I feel about a man i was with going beyond ”appreciating the female form”.
The other side of this of course, is that many MANY women are quite ok with watching a fairly tame movie with some hot film star in it and ogling and fantastising but see this as ok becuase it’s not reality. maybe it’s another goose/gander thing?
KarlR #60
Very well said.
In addition to saying I agree, as usual, with EMK’s answer here, I also am compelled to chime in re: #40 and #41 (Helen and Goldie’s responses to Mia #38).
Goldie #40: I completely agree. And I’d also like to add: Mia, you must not live in New York, because I’m 32 and attractive but I’m constantly seeing women in their 40s and 50s who are seriously fit, well-dressed, charismatic, etc…and married.
Helen #41: I also pretty much agree, and I smiled at your reference to the French…I thought I’d add as an anecdote: a while back, the topic of affairs came up between me and my wonderful French boyfriend of 8 months. We were discussing a female French friend who is in a long-distance relationship, and wondering how it would turn out. I jokingly said, “Why doesn’t she have an affair? Isn’t that the French way?” And my boyfriend responded, in all seriousness, “Actually, no… most French people think affairs are more trouble and work than they’re worth.”
Et voila ; )
@ Mia
“Evans fidelity stats sound way too low, based on all my friends’ and acqaintances’ tales of misbehaving attached guys.”
Again, the experiences of your friends are an unrepresentative sample of the population.
@ Kenya
“I totally agree, Not only is it “normal” for men to look at porn, so many men look at it that what would qualify as deviant behavior would be not looking at it.
Actually, according to the link below, Scientists at the University of Montreal launched a search for men in their 20s who had never looked at pornography — but couldn’t find any:
”
I’m one of those deviants, lol.
I’ve never ‘consumed’ porn, but, I’ve observed it on a number of occasions, in the company of others who, incidentally, happened to be viewing it.
I have a high libido, but I can’t honestly say that the idea of viewing porn appeals to me.
@ DinaStrange
“Perhaps, what i am about to say is going to be disliked by the majority of the readers of this blog, but as a woman looking at “market” evaluations of human relationships i came to a conclusion that being a high end escort makes much more financial sense to a woman, than being a wife. Unless she is married to a wealthy man, with legal protection in case he decides to cheat/leave her for a younger woman or dies.”
Setting aside the questions of supply and demand that Karl alluded to, it is a niche solution limited in frequency not only by intolerable risks(that few are willing to abide), but also by a knowledge of sexual concessions that are implicitly indescriminant(ie. where no one is assuming clients
will tend to resemble Richard Gere).
“The liability of raising children by oneself is huge, same as liability of time investment that usually goes into maternity/childhood.”
Obvious solution – women can select a risk averse man(there are reliable indications), who sees them as an ‘optimal’ partner(again, there are reliable indications).
The problem with said solution, is that (since females are more sexually selective)male candidates are more likely to be satisfied with female attractiveness, than they are with his(unless a woman can justify the devotion of a high value man, by being a sufficiently high value woman – which is still problematic, as higher female selectivity ensures that there is always less men to go around who have been deemed of high value).
Still, as the limiting sex, the onus of compromise is upon women.
@ Hope
“And I’d also like to add: Mia, you must not live in New York, because I’m 32 and attractive but I’m constantly seeing women in their 40s and 50s who are seriously fit, well-dressed, charismatic, etc…and married.”
I think she was referring to those who aren’t, or are in some way hindering the sexual needs of their spouse – a valid criticism.
I occasionally look at good looking men. Rarely though.
I am SO glad I am not a man. Men with their sexual desires and immediate responses to women which they can’t control, must be so irritating.
Yes, men can control their concsious reaction (IE just because he wants to have sex with her, doesn’t mean he will) it’s the immediate reaction that is out of a mans control. There is not a woman alive that will really understand that.
I’m glad I am not a man. And when My man, gets a bit of a flush under the collar because a cute female talks to him, especially if she’s short, has a cute figure, big boobs, brown curly hair and she wears spectacles…well, I just sit there and smile. That’s my stud..he’s still got that lusty male within him.
I try not to giggle, but it does make me giggle sometimes. We women don’t know how lucky we are, to not be constantly distracted like men can be.
Having said all that, I do not support any commercialization of sex(strippers, prostitution, porn). I think these are very damaging long term for society. I have given my rather rational and well thought out reasons as to why this is wrong , to my partner, along with making sure he never feels “shame” over his feelings…and he no longer enjoys porn as much as he did.
So to the ladies out there, I support you whole-heartedly in your potential dislike of him deliberately seeking out sexual stimulation. I also think, you need to give that to him in a way that is natural to both of you, and you may end up with more of a loyal tiger on your hands, than you ever thought possible.
Men , are easily sexually conditioned, especially when in love.
Hope 63: Thanks for the real-life example. In that response from your boyfriend, though, the attitude there does seem different from here, where the very word “affair” often evokes a knee-jerk reaction that is very different from the calm answer your boyfriend gave.
Karl 60: I support the first part of your comments; studying adolescents only introduces many confounders into the studies. As for the rest… your comments convince me that YOU are a good and thoughtful person, but I’m less convinced when you use yourself as an anecdote to refute David T’s points generally. For example, the fact that you compliment your fiancee, and thereby improve her body image, doesn’t seem relevant to David’s point about porn causing worse body image in some people – both because they expect more and their partners expect more. Your complimenting your fiancee has no obvious relation to porn at all. It just shows that you’re smart about women’s emotional needs.
Mia 45: “when I make fun of a woman’s looks, it’s either because she has something I want that she didn’t work as hard as I am working to get, or she just has an unpleasant personality. I did know the wife of one married guy, and she was very spoiled and materialistic, which made doing her husband in the backseat of their car all the more fun.”
The thoughts you express here are quite immature, and will not make you feel better about yourself or help you toward your goals. First, what do you gain by insulting women who have what you want? Take bitterness and emotions out of the picture for once, and take the time to calmly observe what they might be doing right. Hint: it might not have anything to do with looks, and fixating on looks is not going to get you anywhere.
Second, it is not your place to punish another woman just because she is “spoiled and materialistic” by “doing her husband.” That only makes you worse than her. Also, it seems incredibly naive, angry, and thoughtless: if her materialism is not directed toward you, why should you feel any need to take revenge on her? It is none of your business. You only endanger yourself by getting involved.
You seem to have a lot of anger toward married women. At the same time, you seem to blithely accept whatever these cheating husbands tell you. I urge you to shed your naivete and focus on doing what’s right, rather than constantly giving in to your emotions. I guarantee you, this alone will improve your self-esteem.
Karl R: for clarification about my above post, I didn’t mean that your comments made me less convinced of your being good and thoughtful. I meant that using anecdotes to refute David T’s points was not convincing to me, as: 1) a sample size of 1 isn’t too convincing, and 2) you seem more analytical than the average man (the average human being, really).
@ Karl:
It’s not a matter of my REQUIRING my boyfriend to not ogle women in front of me; as EMK has said often enough, “men do what they want.” I just make it clear: sure, you CAN ogle women in front of me. That’s a choice you can make. And I can choose to dump your disrespectful ass right then and there for doing it.
I don’t really REQUIRE anything except respect. If I’m going to be disrespected, then the conversation is done. I choose to be respectful, and I ask that my man make the same choice. If he cannot do that, well then, we’re done.
I do agree with you in regards to the PromiseKeepers comments; most “Christian” churchgoing men I dated in the past, talked about how bad it was, porn, but then they’d just keep on watching it, yet still giving off the impression that they were such upstanding, godly men. Which is why I made the choice not to date Christian men anymore. I’d rather have my bullshit up front, and not covered in lies and hypocrisy that I see so often in the Christian faith. Expecting a guy to not ever watch porn, is akin to asking the sun not to shine. It’s going to happen, whether I like it or not.
I just think (getting back to the topic of the blog) we women need to be able to trust the man we’re with to be loyal. Some male behaviours can be mildly annoying obviously. Just like women. IE. Walking around walmart with the bf once and we had split to grab some stuff. The guy goes out of his way to come get me. “I gotta show you something! c’mere!”. What does he point out? A hot brunette in the paint section dressed down in sweats, hair tied back, glasses, no makeup. She was a knockout! Was I annoyed? Mildly. Because I was busy shopping. The thing is though, when he saw this dressed down hotty in disguise the second thing he thought about was me, and how much I would appreciate her gorgeousness. I did…Even if it wasn’t worth it to me to walk halfway across the beastly wal-mart. Insert eye-roll.
When a man looks at and appreciates another woman he isn’t chucking you out the window. A man certainly doesn’t deserve to be hated on and feel like he’s a piece of trash for doing it. The way a man responds, and how he acts in the situation is what tells you he has integrity and appreciates you just as much and more than the one he’s simply looking at and admiring.
Heather 68: Given how you repeatedly say you’ll dump guy X on the spot, I get the sense that the respect you require includes an awful lot of hidden subcategories. There’s a difference between ogling women while on a first or second date with someone, and taking an extra look or two when you’ve been with someone for months or years. If you’re speaking about the former, I’m in total agreement. If you’re speaking about the latter, I’d say good luck with such an approach.
As for porn, a lot of the mainstream stuff is riddled with problematic gender stereotypes, which can negatively impact peoples’ love lives. In fact, given how prevalent porn is these days, I think it’s safe to say that at least some of those stereotypes have floated into pop culture, even amongst those who aren’t porn watchers. The idea that men can always “perform,” and should be able to for long stretches, is easily correlated with mainstream porn.
At the same time, so many of these conversations get tainted with shame, guilt, and defensiveness. Instead of rejecting anything labeled porn out of hand, I’d argue it makes more sense to consider the spectrum. Erotica. Feminist porn. Ancient sex manuals. NC-17 and R-rated movies. People need to get a lot more specific about what it is that they are offended by, or see as damaging. And to untangle that from what I would argue is a generalized shame and guilt around sex itself. Those most wound up about porn (users and non-users) tend to have an unhealthy connection to sexuality as a whole. That might upset a few people here, but I’m convinced it’s true. Those Christian men Heather speaks about – seriously unhealthy views about sex. The guys Leesa speaks about in #53: the same. In fact, odds are these men are addicted to mainstream porn precisely because they don’t know themselves sexually. And the teetotalers on the opposite end, who browbeat anyone who takes a sniff at something like porn, also tend to be in the same boat. Ignorant of who they are as sexual beings. What actually turns them on, and brings them alive sexually. As opposed to just what it is that they don’t like.
Evan’s post, and the many supportive comments are pointing to the fact that mere suppression of porn, or claiming some higher moral ground and being done with it, really doesn’t fly. Going further, the same can be said for suppressing or claiming a higher moral ground about looking at people who aren’t your partner, or flirting, or any number of other things. Doing this often means cutting off a life force that might easily be redirected towards a more healthy form of expression. And/or might actually be enhancing your relationship in it’s current form.
Always well-said, Nathan.
Nathan,
actually there are no subcategories with me: it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only. RESPECT. And I don’t care if it’s been a month, a year, or a lifetime. Do not ogle women in front of me. It’s rude, it’s immature. I understand that men do look, but it doesn’t need to be done in an obvious and disrespectful way. I notice good looking men but I don’t whistle and cat call and poke my guy and go, OMG, did you SEE that hottie?? Why? Because I choose to be a grown and mature adult and respect my guy and be sensitive to the fact that he’s trying to lose some weight.
And yes, I would dump a disrespectful man on the spot. As EMK and others have said, men do what they want. If I continue to let them behave the way they want to behave, i.e. show disrespect, then there’s a problem with me for allowing them to violate boundaries and not respect me and my feelings. I have very little time and patience for rude people. And I fully expect that I would be dumped for disrespectful behavior on my part. I’m not big on double standards. I expect my guy to call me out if I’ve annoyed him or disrespected him in any way.
As to porn, well see here’s the thing, I have heard that very justification that those who condemn it are forbidding a natural phenomenon, etc. I don’t buy it. I’d rather hear you guys just come up front and say what is really going on: “We like porn and we’re not going to stop watching it, really. If it really upsets you, depending on how much I care about you, I might stop or watch it on the sly.” You guys want to watch porn and there’s really not a lot we girls can do about it, if it bothers us. All we can do is let you guys know what our personal boundaries are, and go from there. My boyfriend knows that I am OK with some occasional porn or if he goes occasionally to strip clubs, but if it becomes more than occasional, then we may have to part ways, because I don’t like the fact that he’s out looking at other naked women.
I’m very, very blunt with men about relationships and my boundaries and it’s helped weed out a LOT of jerks and game players. And led me to a good guy who IS respectful, kind, and honest.
Helen said: (#66)
“David’s point about porn causing worse body image in some people — both because they expect more and their partners expect more.”
You’re misquoting both the study abstract and David T’s statement. Both pointed out the correlation, and neither said anything about causation.
David T said: (#48)
“Causality is not clear in all the studies, but even correlations are troubling (porn use as an indicator of tendencies towards the above behaviors).”
I said: (#60)
“Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.”
Helen said: (#66)
“I’m less convinced when you use yourself as an anecdote to refute David T’s points generally.”
“Your complimenting your fiancee has no obvious relation to porn at all. It just shows that you’re smart about women’s emotional needs.”
David T acknowledges that we don’t know whether porn use causes lowered body image. There’s just a measureable correlation between the two.
He believes that it still serves a use as an indicator of these behaviors, which I’m disputing. As you pointed out, my being smart about my fiancée’s emotional needs has “no obvious relation to porn at all.” An indicator is useful if it’s correct, and it’s counterproductive if it’s wrong. I may be more analytical than the average person, but I’m not unique in that regard.
Furthermore, this is a case where people get to observe the actual behavior before they get to observe the indicator. My fiancée knew that I made her feel good about herself at least a year before she knew whether I watched porn. Personal observation is going to trump whatever the correlation indicates, particularly because the observation occurs first.
Helen said: (#67)
“using anecdotes to refute David T’s points was not convincing to me”
I wasn’t trying to refute his points using anecdotes. I was offering alternate explanations for consideration.
As far as I can tell, David T had two main points:
1. Porn has a negative impact.
2. Porn has troubling correlations with some negative tendencies and may serve as an indicator of those tendencies.
In my opinion, his first point is defunct because the only relevant study (discussing adults) doesn’t indicate causation, just correlation.
My anecdotes challenged his implication of causality, the notion that the associated behaviors were necessarily “troubling”, and that porn served any use as an “indicator” of these behaviors.
I have not seen any browbeating here. I saw a dismissive and rude response to a post. The response implied there is no peer reviewed work pointing to porn use having negative implications in relationships between genders. I knew that was not the case.
I had been in a discussion some months ago regarding parental controls on iOS and Android, because I parent an adolescent. (BTW it is not as easy to put controls on those devices as one might think w/o significantly compromising their utility.) I had those particular references on hand. I was not interested in hours of searching to do more than point out that peer reviewed work on the topic is available. I leave it to you to look for it, though I will throw one bone your way.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2010.0477
This review points out that the body of work out there exists, and is difficult to use for a variety of reasons. Not surprising given that this is a new area. So that leaves us to us non-professionals to find our own way, and maybe rely on informal popular press review articles written by professionals.
I agree that some porn stereotypes have floated into pop culture. This is one reason I am concerned. This and a series of, yes, non-academic articles I read about a year ago (in wired? salon? I don’t recall and can’t find them unfortunately). One on adolescents was disturbing, and anecdotal reports I hear from and about teens in my area disturb me too.
I have seen some women here say “this item is on my personal checklist.” Many point out that makes their list of options a lot shorter and people should draw a line where it is right for them. Like Karl said, “You need to find someone who you can be comfortable with, and who will be comfortable with you. You can’t influence what other people will be comfortable with, but you can influence what you’re comfortable with. If you’re eliminating too many options by being inflexible, you might want to consider changing.”
Given the “nearly all men do this, This is the norm, therefore you need to be OK with it” pollyanna tone throughout this thread, it is important to encourage people to not disregard their boundaries solely for expediency without consideration for the less obvious implications of doing so. There are some good reasons for that particular concern and readers should know about them. Women should make a choice to change (or not) it being aware of the positive and negative implications either way.
I was going to give a blow by blow rebuttal, but others have touched on many points point and I have gone down this side thread too far already. There was one point that I think is rather important. Karl was dismissive of correlations.
Regardless of the correlations, I would recommend that someone rule someone out becaue of the problem behaviors, not the correlation.
”¨It is less safe to ride with someone who regularly drives 20mph faster than the surrounding traffic even though that behavior only correlates with more accidents (after all, they might be a professional race car driver). It isn’t a problem until they have an accident but I would rather not be in the car when it happens. Two men go out with their respective girlfriends twice a week. One plans well in advance. The other calls up and plans only a few hours ahead. The latter man’s behavior correlates with someone who is less interested in his girlfriend than the other is interested in his own. The latter might have a job where he is on call every night, but in general that correlation is a legitimate reason for the girlfriend to be concerned.
David T – I don’t have any investment in defending mainstream porn. As I said, it’s filled with problematic gender stereotypes, not to mention it’s also a very limited view as to what sex looks like. Furthermore I agree with you that simply arguing “it’s the norm, be ok with it” doesn’t work. There are negative consequences. We would do well to closely examine what they are, and how to limit their impact in our relationships. The issue I was bringing up is that whenever porn gets brought up, a lot of folks lump many other things focusing on sexual acts into that category. And then dismiss it all as destructive. Which I’d argue is, itself, a destructive attitude.
Rachel – nothing in my comment suggested men should be able to do the jaw droppin’, OMG, cat callin’ bit. I agree with you that immaturity need not be put up with.
“As to porn, well see here’s the thing, I have heard that very justification that those who condemn it are forbidding a natural phenomenon, etc. I don’t buy it.” You misread what I was say, if this was a response to my comment. Porn itself, is merely an instrument. It’s not a natural phenomenon. What I was saying was that in just arguing for suppression, people tend to toss out both the instrument and the desire attached to it. The desire is a natural expression. And I think that natural expression often gets shamed by those who are highly fixated on getting rid of porn. As I pointed to above, I think mainstream porn is a lousy instrument for expressing this desire. But because the shame attached to main stream porn is rarely separated from the desire itself, we never get anywhere. Some men and women go on using mainstream porn on the sly. Others condemn them as perverts. Few consider exploring the diversity of other options out there for expressing that desire. And few want to move the conversation beyond “I think it (whatever “it” is exactly) sucks, and here’s why.” Or “I don’t like ‘it,’ but you can do ‘it’ on the sly.” Or “how dare you question my right to view ‘it.'”
You talk about not putting up with immaturity. I’d argue that the majority of Americans, men and women, are immature about sexuality and sexual expression. Maybe even the majority of humans, period. But I’ll stick with my own country here. We love to speak about these kinds of issues on a general level, but God forbid there are any real, detailed, sustained conversations about what constitutes healthy sexual desires, how do we truly work with and respect differences in needs between partners, and how do we untangle legitimate desires from unhealthy or damaging addictions to certain instruments. And by “real” I mean ones that don’t end up drowning in shaming and finger pointing. Hell, I only experienced this kind of talk myself in the last relationship I was in. Before that, I was basically a sexually repressed guy dating mostly sexually repressed women. End of story. Evan’s opened an important door here. Let’s not shut it down with a battle between simplistic “porn is good, porn is bad” kind of narratives.
Sorry Rachel, I meant Heather. And this last statement “Let’s not shut it down with a battle between simplistic “porn is good, porn is bad” kind of narratives.” was to folks in general, not Heather in specific. Thanks.
@ Heather #68:
You still don’t get it. You do require your boyfriend to not ogle other women. Sure, it’s up to him whether or not he does it, but that doesn’t make it any less of a requirement on your part, if you say you’re going to dump him if he does it.
@ Joe #62
No she doesn’t require her boyfriends to not ogle other women. It’s just that if they do it in front of her, they will no longer be her boyfriend. EVERYONE has boundaries. She sets hers so that she receives respect. I’m in complete agreement with her. No reason to stick with a guy who can’t respect you.
No problem Nathan. I figured you meant someone else when I read it.
I see a lot of talk about respect in correlation to a mans response to a beautiful woman. I would argue that respect is subjective. I don’t see it as disrespectful at all for my boyfriend to go out of his way to show me a beautiful woman. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Well, in my story it bothered me to the extent that I was busy and it probably wasn’t entirely important. I would have had the same reaction had it been anything else of equal importance.
Maybe i’m an exception to the unspoken rules of women. I like and appreciate beauty in all it’s forms. I am mentally (not sexually) stimulated by good looking men and women of all shapes, and colours. I enjoy analyzing what exactly it is about them I find beautiful. My man knows this therefore nothing about his behaviour is disrespectful or immature. I point out women and men to him on occasion as well.
I need a man to be loyal. That doesn’t mean I have a monopoly on human beauty in his world. If he shares that with me even better! I want to know what he finds beautiful and why. It’s a part of who he is. It’s a part of why he loves me.
I wonder why some seem to think it’s better to have it swept under the rug. I don’t understand how having behaviours continued but hidden suddenly makes such behaviours less disrespectful. As painful as it was I am very glad my ex-husband couldn’t hide what happened from me. I suppose he tried to an extent but I knew within a couple of weeks what was going on. He wasn’t exactly “practiced” at hiding things from me. Open honesty just seems a more healthy way to do things. If you don’t like a behaviour you have the option to discuss it rather than have it hidden because it infuriates you.
I don’t condone any sort of digusting behaviour, but I also don’t see the admiration of beauty as digusting. I don’t see (some types) porn as disgusting either. I see it as something visually exciting, and a tool to be used at appropriate times. Sometimes it’s helpful when a person is alone, it can be fun with another person. The generalized arguments about negative effects don’t relate to me. I’m sure there are negative effects on some people but like Evan said it’s just like alcohol. Some use it in moderation, some don’t. If I have sex an average of twice a day and my boyfriend and I use porn twice a month I think we’re probably doing just fine. If i’m alone once or twice a month and I personally use it I don’t see any problem there either. My self esteem is high and my sex life is perfectly healthy. Take it for what it’s worth but studies don’t apply to everyone.
I e-mailed this question to Evan some time ago & am quite surprised about all the posts! My question was more related to being out with my husband & him ogling other women, nothing related to porn. We actually use porn together & I don’t have a problem with him using it alone on occasion. My struggle has been with him watching/looking at other women when we’re out because I had never been with a man before that did it so openly. I’m sure they did, just much more discreetly. Like some other women posted, I feel disrespected when he does it & it hurts my feelings. We have had many discussions about it to no avail – even after I have told him it hurts my feelings he continues to do it. My problem is not with him noticing or glancing at an attractive woman, it’s looking over & over & over or watching a woman all night. It’s hurtful to me as it seems he is much more interested in watching other women than he is in me. I understand both men & women are attracted to others but I am much less of a people watcher than he is & even if I see a very handsome man, would not stare at him all night. I thought Evan’s explanation was a good one. I don’t think my husband is deviant or a bad person for doing it but I do wish he could curb it better to spare my feelings. I try very hard to not say anything to him about it any more because it gets me no where but it still hurts my feelings & makes me feel insecure & unattractive.
Rachael: actually I’m exactly the same as you in that way. I appreciate looking at beautiful men and women, but am not sexually attracted to the vast majority of them.
Intelligence and kindness are bigger turn-ons for me.
Cat, yours is a tricky situation. On the one hand, I believe in Evan’s wife’s practice of giving your spouse lots of “mulligans” if you believe that OVERALL, it is a good relationship that is worth keeping. But in this case, if he knows he is hurting your feelings and he keeps doing it anyway, that’s really not a good sign.
My husband and I continually nag each other about the same things, and neither of us consistently does a great job of doing what the other requests 🙂 (hey, that’s marriage). So, mulligans abound. But we always pay attention if the other person is hurt by our actions, and we stop those actions. Have you told your husband how much it hurts you and how it makes you feel unattractive when he does that? If so, what is his response? That is very important.
Cat, I can imagine how hurtful it would be if your man was watching another woman all night in front of you and he consistently did that when you were out. Is the issue he doesn’t care that he’s hurting your feelings after you express that?
I would find it difficult not to walk out of the restaurant if someone did that to me.
Cat #79
When you’re out with your husband, he will stare at another women for the entire night? If you’ve discussed this, and he continues the behavior, that’s a sign that he isn’t really hearing you, or taking your pain and discomfort seriously. It also sounds passive-aggressive and controlling. Have you tried couples therapy? Due to his insensitivity, I have to wonder if there are not other issues in your marriage as well.
Cat said: (#79)
“It’s hurtful to me as it seems he is much more interested in watching other women than he is in me”
There is another potential solution which may be easier for your husband to accomplish.
He seems to find it difficult to become more surreptitious about staring at other women. Perhaps he would find it easier to become more blatant about staring at and admiring you.
While it’s in my best interest to be discreet about looking at other women, I’ve also discovered that it’s in my best interest to be flagrantly obvious about staring at my fiancée.
nathan said: (#75)
“We love to speak about these kinds of issues on a general level, but God forbid there are any real, detailed, sustained conversations about what constitutes healthy sexual desires, how do we truly work with and respect differences in needs between partners,”
In some ways, these discussions get a bit easier on a partner-to-partner level (once you get past the fear of starting the discussion), because the scope is so much smaller.
An easy way to approach it is enlightened self-interest:
It is in our best interest to make our partner happy.
It is in our best interest for our partner to make us happy.
These goals become much easier to accomplish if both people openly communicate what they enjoy. I agree with nathan’s assessment (#75) that Americans tend to be sexually repressed. That means I have to express what I enjoy to someone who may not be entirely comfortable about hearing it; I have to solicit what she enjoys, even though she may not be entirely comfortable telling me; and I have to be the main facilitator of the conversation, even though I may be as uncomfortable as she is.
Fortunately, it gets easier with practice.
nathan said: (#75)
“how do we untangle legitimate desires from unhealthy or damaging addictions to certain instruments.”
That’s a lot more ambitious than I strive for. My concerns are consensual sex (which implies informed consent) and safe sex (which covers more than just STIs and unwanted pregnancies).
I know a laid-back, successful, (apparently) well-adjusted man who likes to be dominated by his wife. If he enjoys being chained to the bed, gettign whipped by his wife, and licking her boots, I’m in a poor position to determine that this is damaging to his mental health (or his wife’s mental health).
However, they do have to take precautions to mitigate the risk of injury or infection which I never have to consider.
David T said: (#74)
“There was one point that I think is rather important. Karl was dismissive of correlations.”
Your example (speed and car accidents) is hardly analagous, since rapid change of velocity is the cause of most injuries/fatalities in auto accidents.
I’ll give you a different example. Helen (#80) finds intelligence to be a turn-on. There is a correlation between intelligence and the amount of higher education someone has.
Helen has previously stated that some of the men she finds intelligent lack college degrees. She has also previously stated that she has met some individuals with advanced degrees who are not particularly intelligent.
If a woman shares Helen’s preferences, would you recommend that she select a man based upon his intelligence, -or- would you recommend that she select a man based upon his college degrees (because of the correlation)?
If intelligence is the important trait, I’d tell the woman to ignore the formal education and select a partner based on intelligence. It’s not that difficult to determine intelligence through conversation.
Similarly, it’s not that difficult to determine how frequently your partner wants sex -or- whether your partner respects your boundaries regarding specific sex acts -or- whether your partner makes you feel attractive and sexy.
What is the value of a correlation which has a chance of accurately telling me information that I already know about someone?
Karl – I pretty much agree with the idea that it’s easier to have these in depth conversations with one’s partner. And that enlightened self interest goes a long way in resolving things.
“I know a laid-back, successful, (apparently) well-adjusted man who likes to be dominated by his wife. If he enjoys being chained to the bed, gettign whipped by his wife, and licking her boots, I’m in a poor position to determine that this is damaging to his mental health (or his wife’s mental health).”
I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with – and others also seemed to be concerned with. If an adult couple decides that they want to engage in S @ M, fetishes, or other forms of “alternative” sexual approaches, then I agree with you that I’m in no position to judge that. It’s the ways in which people tend to feel forced into, or simply unconsciously enact stuff from mainstream porn that is problematic. Because at least one partner in the situation tends to feel used or that their needs are being neglected. Which probably is not the case with the S @ M couple, if they both want to do what they are doing.
nathan said: (#85)
“It’s the ways in which people tend to feel forced into, or simply unconsciously enact stuff from mainstream porn that is problematic. Because at least one partner in the situation tends to feel used or that their needs are being neglected.”
I’d say that’s more a function of ignorance (due to a sexually repressed culture) rather than porn. Unless you’re watching Monty Python’s Meaning of Life, sex education in school doesn’t discuss foreplay. Parents aren’t interested in teaching teenagers how to make their boyfriends/girlfriends orgasm. Schools aren’t interested in teaching them either.
If you don’t know how to please your partner, someone’s likely to end up being a bit disappointed.
nathan said: (#85)
“I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with — and others also seemed to be concerned with.”
Could you give some examples of what you mean?
Women would be perfectly content with the same man forever, as long as he mixed it up in the bedroom a bit.
This is so grossly untrue that it’s simply embarrassing to read it in a dating blog.
Actually, Erica, it is true.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/200908/who-destroys-the-marriage-cheating-husband-betrayed-wife-or-other-woman
“When researchers decided to look at this issue to develop a Sexual Boredom Scale, they found that for men, sexual boredom was correlated with variety in partners (or lack thereof), while for women, it was more related to variety in activity. In other words, women were more likely to be satisfied by changes in the sexual what, while men (gay or straight) were more likely to respond to a changes in the sexual whom. It’s a simple, unavoidable truth almost everyone knows to be true, but few dare to discuss: variety and change are the necessary spice of the sex life of the male of our species. But even having an intellectual understanding of this aspect of many men’s inner reality doesn’t make acceptance any easier for many women.”
Apparently, it doesn’t.
Next time you choose to disagree with me, try coming to me with facts instead of feelings.
Evan RE: 82.1
I and other women are TELLING you that the research does NOT apply to all women. I would NOT be perfectly happy being monogamous with one man my whole life, because the mere idea repulses me. I agree there are SOME women who fall into the category of could be with only one their whole life and be perfectly happy. That is NOT an across the board assessment for ALL women though. Some of us are sick of the fact that men are encouraged to be promiscuous while we girls aren’t allowed to enjoy ourselves too.
The old saying comes to mind-what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I am also a woman who can get visually stimulated. It happens FAR more in person than with pictures. I have some legitimate concerns and complaints for how these studies are run…or there are far more men in women’s bodies than the general public wants to admit.
No one is SAYING that research applies to ALL women. Jesus. You make it sound like one can’t make any statement about men or women because there are exceptions. That would pretty much render any advice useless. Men – in general – can separate sex and love more than women can. So, as always, if what I say doesn’t apply to you, ignore it. Don’t tell me it’s “wrong,” because it’s not. I stand by my original post.
When you write controversial blanket statements, you shouldn’t be surprised some will find you and the studies, completely wrong. If you’re going to get so sensitive one can’t even reply to your “I’m sticking by what I wrote statement,” perhaps you shouldn’t respond at all. Has it occurred to you that sticking with what you wrote is WRONG!?
I definitely buy the above, not because I think it’s the way men are – but because it’s the way I am too! lol
I have a massive wandering eye and struggle to stay monogamous. I too would love to sample a new guy every night. The only thing that keeps me from sleeping around is that as a chick, I get instantly attached to people I’m intimate with (I just can’t do casual sex), and the only thing that keeps me from straying is the Golden Rule – I wouldn’t want someone to cheat on me.
As for the flip side, I tend to pick guys who are pretty good at hiding their staring, or they learn to be lol. I do appreciate that my man is extraordinarily good at putting blinders on when we’re together. Other people have higher tolerance for guys looking, so it’s definitely a spectrum to negotiate, I suppose.
It’s also been shown in primate studies that in numerous animal species the female “shacks up” with a stable partner, yet seeks to mate with an alpha male at the height of her ovulation cycle who will actually be the genetically superior bio-dad of her offspring. There are lots of studies out there to pick and choose from to prove one’s different points of view. Evan’s comments make perfect sense, and I believe the biological impulse for partner variety applies as well to myself and most of the women I’ve known whether they are in a commited relationship or not, not just variety of the act. It’s human nature I believe. Women are socialized against acknowledging their own non-monogamous feelings when they are partnered up and thus project that harsh self-denial onto their men and hold them to a standard of denying a natural biological impulse that they themselves feel as strongly and just won’t admit. I think in most people’s, women’s as well as men’s, alternate universe of having their cake and eating it too, they’d be able to act on any impulse with anyone at any time that felt good in the moment and still have love security at home. Like Evan said, it takes about 18-36 months for an offspring to be able to be cared for by the village, so to speak, and that’s when overarching feelings of desire cool off for both sexes. From the time we are born, we crave variety and stimulation. New people are exciting. They don’t carry the weight of all the hashing out of compromise necessary in any commited relationship and they don’t become part of the daily scenery of our lives and we can fantasize about everything they may or may not be or do. This doesn’t make them better than the spouse at home, just energetically more light and free and stimulating to the admirer due to the more superficial connection of just seeing them and not knowing them well, “warts and all,” like we do our partners. Just like anything in life – a partner, a career, a friendship, a hobby, etc. – you have to make an effort to keep your perspective fresh or you will be more likely to grow bored and dissatisfied with what you have and look for novelty as the only solution. That being said, temperamentally, some people of both genders are more on the extreme of novelty-driven, or conversely anxious about change in the familiar, and it’s the innate difference in levels of neurotransmitters in everyone. It’s not a crime, just an innate tendency in varying degrees, and both genders can suffer from boredom in relationships and stray mentally if not physically. I’ve also read studies that state women cheat almost as much as men, but don’t report it. Lke I said, there is a study for every point to be made. Actions in response to impulses define the person’s value of the sanctity of their relationship over temporary satiating of impulsive desires. Women who are on a very high horse need to climb on down and admit they sometimes feel desire to look at a hot dude as well and have some biological response to him and not be so insecure when their partner does the same and not project their own insecurities about themselves onto whom their partner may glance at. As long as they feel the guy is respectful towards them and not overtly ogling or behaving in a way that is clearly disrespectful to the relationship, then I don’t see what the big deal is. I’ve been married for years to a great, kind, attractive man, however when I’ve been away from him and encountered a hottie at work or in some other situation where interaction was either necessary or happening for whatever reason, and I can feel my pulse start to quicken, I always ask myself “Would I behave this way if my hubby were sitting right here next to me?” It’s a perfect way for both men and women to guage if their behavior is appropriate given the expectations of their particular commited relationship. It’s certainly variable. I know couples who both engage in flirtiness that I find overy and they know it’s harmless and enjoy that part of eachother’s personalities and are both incorrigible flirts, but ultimately harmless and faithful to each other. For men and women, as long as your partner isn’t a jealous lunatic around whom you can’t even make eye contact with a member of the opposite sex or have even be casually friendly to someone in a totally harmless way without receiving a prompt tongue lashing, I believe most people have a gut feeling whether they are simply being friendly to a hottie, albeit maybe uncontrollably feeling a little more peppy, excited or nervous, or whether they are starting to cross the line and behaving in a way that they known damn well would hurt their partner’s feelings if he or she were sitting right there and/or disrespect the commitment they made to their relationship. Another question to ask onself is “How would I feel if my partner were behaving this way?” This is clearly a guideline to try for actual interactions with other people, not for someone’s guy watching porn which clearly he probably wouldn’t do in front of his lady for the most part unless it’s a mutual thing that they do, but since there is zero chance of him ever meeting the girl in the magazine – big deal if he gets a little thrill that way. Suggest to your man that he apply the rule of pretending you are sitting right next to him when a hottie enters his orbit in the future. A decent man worth having will know in his gut when he’s crossing the line in his particular relationship and would honor your request for him to just consider it. If both people do that, more trust builds over time that allows harmless looking and less of a need to analyze or control the other one in those scenarios.
Sarah, I don’t understand, in light of everything you said, how do Evan’s comments make perfect sense? (And btw, it’s only this one comment I am disputing the validity of, not the entire article.)
Evan, I have also seen studies saying that were it socially acceptable and economically viable, the vast majority of women would have gotten impregnated by the same handful of alpha males.
I’ve also seen very different statistics on marital fidelity, with numbers hovering around 50%, and more married women cheating than married men.
Thanks, Erica. I’d love to see that study about the 2 billion women getting impregnanated by the 50 men. I don’t disagree that alpha males skew the end of the curve and are much more desirable than “average” men.
But when all is said and done and couples get married, men tend to want variety in partners and women want variety in sex itself. This does NOT mean that women DON’T want more partners, but rather that they’re more content in a healthy monogamous relationship than men, overall. And marital infidelity numbers aren’t at 50%. It’s closer to 25%, and men are still more unfaithful than women.
@Nathan, you do realize that people engaging in both sadism and masochism PREDATES the use of porn don’t you (and it predates those names, which were just given to people who wrote about them extensively.)
We blame a lot of things on the media when in reality, a lot of things have existed for centuries. Technology might allow for the more widespread dissemination of certain kinds of information (some good, some bad, and nothing that every person in the world will agree with).
However, none of us can SAY if the people who engage in “atypical” behavior got the idea from someone else or just discovered it organically.
And the consensual practice of what Karl described is NOT considered to be evidence of a psychiatric disorder nor is it proof that society is falling apart. People like what they like, and while the biology excuse if overused, it’s not as if it’s a complete fallacy that people are programmed a certain way, to achieve certain goals, although we aren’t ALL the same.
It’s funny what people assume are symptoms of an evil modern world that aren’t, and the proof that there have always been some people who like them easily goes back about a millenium.
Nicole “@Nathan, you do realize that people engaging in both sadism and masochism PREDATES the use of porn don’t you (and it predates those names, which were just given to people who wrote about them extensively.)” Yes, I’m well aware of that. And I wasn’t blaming S @ M or other alternative sexual practices on porn. Nor was I saying they are symptoms of an “evil modern world.” I support whatever adult folks want to do that doesn’t harm others, and isn’t destructive to the partners involved.
Karl, ““I would say that it’s more about unconscious or semi-conscious ideas and stereotypes coming from a lot of mainstream porn that I’m concerned with — and others also seemed to be concerned with.”
Could you give some examples of what you mean?”
The idea that sex is a big performance is certainly reinforced by mainstream porn. I actually think that a fair number of guys get caught up in comparing themselves to porn actors, trying to measure up, and then feeling terrible when they don’t. And some women expect their guys to have the stamina and continuous orgasm giving power of these actors. In both cases, there’s a failure to remember, or even recognize, that the films are cut and pasted clips, that the “amazing skills” of the porn stars – male and female – are often an illusion.
Also, the idea that women absolutely love blow jobs and are just waiting to drop on their knees and give their guy a long, dramatic one. (Obviously, many women enjoy blow jobs, but it’s the way in which they are depicted that gets in guys’ heads. And, of course, some women really aren’t interested in any of that.)
You’re totally right that there is a major lack of quality sex ed for teens and young adults. And I’d also agree that people can learn from porn. I just think there is such a diversity of options available these days – some of which fall under the porn category, but aren’t as repetitive and stereotypical – that I’d rather advocate for people using other sources – especially for learning, if possible.
@ Sarah
“It’s also been shown in primate studies that in numerous animal species the female “shacks up” with a stable partner, yet seeks to mate with an alpha male at the height of her ovulation cycle who will actually be the genetically superior bio-dad of her offspring.”
If that’s the study I think it is, then the primates were HUMANS, and it only observed a heightened sensitivity to more masculine photos, during ovulation.
A VERY different thing from what you are implying, and hardly conclusive of any behavioral tendencies.
@ Erica
” Evan, I have also seen studies saying that were it socially acceptable and economically viable, the vast majority of women would have gotten impregnated by the same handful of alpha males.”
Which attests to women craving *less* variety in partners, because their preferences tend to a (relatively)small population(ie. the ‘Alphas’) of the opposite sex(unlike with males – who enjoy a greater variability in partners).
But, the more important thing, is that men tend to marry as a longterm mating strategy – they marry to secure a long term mate.
Women, on the other hand, tend to marry for the long term benefits observed in security and committment.
So, men are more sexually motivated in marriage(and thus, a greater male desire for partner variability – as a function of their greater sexual motivation – is hardly surprising).
Don’t want to get too overtly technical, but according to “The Red Queen” and Robin Baker’s “Sperm Wars”, both men and women are biologically programmed to cheat/seek multiple partners. Women desire to find the fittest genes for their offspring, whereas men desire to spread their genes to as many females as possible. Sperm are actually designed to compete with foreign male sperm in a woman’s uterus (contrary to popular imagery, they are subdivided into types: blocker sperm, fighter sperm, fertilizer sperm…the fighter sperm literally do nothing but swim around looking for sperm from competing males and destroy them with little packets of acid in their heads…they’re like little kamikaze pilots). One of the hypotheses for the female orgasm is so that a woman can become impregnated by the more attractive DNA of her lover than that of her stable LTR.
That said, while we may have evolved this way, we’ve also evolved highly developed frontal lobes that allow us to think in the future, analyze consequences, and project positive/negative scenarios. We are highly sentient thinking, feeling creatures who want companionship, emotional intimacy, understanding, acceptance and love. (That goes for men just as much as women.) We are in control of our urges and actions. I, for one, have no problem with my partner noticing other women or looking at porn. I just don’t want it thrown in my face or to have it become an unhealthy obsession (i.e., if you’re routinely looking at porn to the point where you’re uninterested in sleeping with me, it’s a problem). I like to look too and am attracted to other guys, may even imagine what it would be like to sleep with one of them, but I would never cheat or hurt my partner with it in any way.
@ Marisa
“Don’t want to get too overtly technical, but according to “The Red Queen” and Robin Baker’s “Sperm Wars”, both men and women are biologically programmed to cheat/seek multiple partners.”
Not quite, as observed in your quote below.
“Women desire to find the fittest genes for their offspring, whereas men desire to spread their genes to as many females as possible. ”
Yes – since females are rate limiting, with lower reproductive potential, they are biased towards quality(in compensation), as opposed to quantity(which serves the high-rate fitness optima of males).
“Sperm are actually designed to compete with foreign male sperm in a woman’s uterus (contrary to popular imagery, they are subdivided into types: blocker sperm, fighter sperm, fertilizer sperm…the fighter sperm literally do nothing but swim around looking for sperm from competing males and destroy them with little packets of acid in their heads…they’re like little kamikaze pilots).”
There are also studies indicating that *less* attractive males have *higher* sperm-counts(which is what we should expect, as an adaptation to decreased mating opportunities – they need every mating to count).
But, the whole Sperm-wars hypothesis is largely unproven in humans:
“A notion emerged in 1996 that in some species, including humans, a significant fraction of sperm specialize in a manner such that they cannot fertilize the egg but instead have the primary effect of stopping the sperm from other males from reaching the egg, e.g. by killing them with enzymes or by blocking their access. This type of sperm specialization became known popularly as “kamikaze sperm” or “killer sperm”, but most follow-up studies to this popularized notion have failed to confirm the initial papers on the matter.”
“One of the hypotheses for the female orgasm is so that a woman can become impregnated by the more attractive DNA of her lover than that of her stable LTR.”
There are also studies indicating that the physiology of selective sperm-transport is not dependent on sexual choice(ie. it can be independently stimulated).
Cat (#79),
Men are most definitely hard-wired to look at & appreciate women’s bodies. There’s no changing that hard-wired desire. As my granny used to say, “If a man stops looking, start planning his funeral” 😉
But what a man can control and moderate is how he behaves while looking and what he does or says thereafter.
I find it a little troubling that your husband can’t bring himself to tone it down a bit – or at least make an effort in that direction. The fact that he deliberately continues a pattern of behavior that he knows upsets you is not a good sign IMHO. Smacks of inconsideration & selfishness on his part.
So…. why not turn the tables on him?
Go see the latest ultimate beef-cake movie (“Magic Mike”) and wax lyrical in conversation with him re: Channing Tatum’s “cheeks”.
Whenever you’re out & see a hot guy, make sure he sees you checking out the goods.
Next time you do a girls weekend away, go to Vegas & see the Chippendales (or NYC & take in a HunkMania show)…. and make sure you bring some good pics home with you. Maybe pin one up on the fridge so that he has to look at it every time he gets a beer 😉
Or if you prefer something more classical, go for a postcard of Michaelangelo’s David.
Yeah, it sounds a bit corny & adolescent, but it could get the point across in a more light-hearted way.
And you just might have a bit of fun doing it.
@89
It isn’t true that a woman will be “perfectly content if a man varies it up in the bedroom”. She may be happier, but perfectly content is a huge stretch.
The main purpose of male sperm(the large amount of it that is produced) is not infact to impregnate a woman soley, but to seek out other male sperm and destroy it , to block the path to the uterous(from other male sperm) and to seek and attach to the ovum. If women were perfectly content with one man exhibiting varied behaviour, evolution would not have gone down this path.
The point of multiple orgasms in a woman, isn’t so one man can satisfy her in a variety of ways, but so that when she is ovulating she will enjoy a LOT of sex, with a LOT of different males, providing an increase in the strength of her offspring.
One of the most significant fantasies of women(especially those who know their own sexuality) is to be with several men at once. And I’m talking more than 1 or 2 additional players.
Neither men nor women are monogamous and we didn’t evolve to be, making any statement that claims men OR women will be “perfectly content” amount to ignorance. And many, many women lie about cheating. I am very skeptical about most of the research done today based on simple questionares simply due to the nature of human lies in this area.
A woman may accept her situation, she may be “more” content. But give her other options “without consequences” and without shaming and you will find a whole different beast on your hands, not that unsimilar to men.
It is said far, far to often by men to their own detriment, that women are perfectly content by what the man wants to believe(IE some men still ‘believe’ women are monogamous) than what is true.
Doesn’t really help anyone.
@ AnnieC
” The main purpose of male sperm(the large amount of it that is produced) is not infact to impregnate a woman soley, but to seek out other male sperm and destroy it , to block the path to the uterous(from other male sperm) and to seek and attach to the ovum. ”
Why are people still circulating this nonsense?
“The point of multiple orgasms in a woman, isn’t so one man can satisfy her in a variety of ways, but so that when she is ovulating she will enjoy a LOT of sex, with a LOT of different males, providing an increase in the strength of her offspring.”
Hmm…
“Four years ago, Wallen set out to do a well-controlled modern study with the collaboration of Elisabeth Lloyd, a professor of history, philosophical science and biology at the Indiana University.
Lloyd’s study of 80 years of previous sex research in her 2005 book, “The Case of the Female Orgasm,” debunked theories that there is an evolutionary reason for the female orgasm.
She determined the female orgasm is merely a byproduct of the male orgasm, as both sexes share the same genital nerve tissue in the fetal stage.
“It is perfectly normal not to have orgasms and there were lots of women in evolutionary time who had no orgasms and it had no impact on their fertility,” said Lloyd.
Current studies bear this out, according to the researchers: 98 percent of men say they “always” reach orgasm during sex, while women are “evenly distributed” between “always and never.”
Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary
“It’s clear the male orgasm is strongly selected and it makes sense,” said Wallen. “If they don’t reach orgasm, they don’t leave offspring.”
To look at the question in reverse, women have a strong evolutionary selection for nipples — without them their babies would die, according to Wallen. However, nipples serve no biological purpose in men.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/sex-study-female-orgasm-eludes-majority-women/story?id=8485289&page=2#.T_rs9bOKkbA
More?
“Kinsey’s Sexual Behavior in the Human Female showed that, over the previous five years of sexual activity, 78% of women had orgasms in 60% to 100% of sexual encounters with other women, compared with 55% for heterosexual sex”
You were saying?
And, since I know your such a big fan of heterospecific, studies:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10209169
AnnieC (#99),
women’s monogamous nature is a myth akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. I think these myths keep getting propagated because the alternative is too unpleasant for men to contemplate. It would mean (gasp) that he may not necessarily be desirable just the way he is, and may need to work on it.
@ Erica
” AnnieC (#99),
women’s monogamous nature is a myth “
No on here is claiming women are inherently monogamous, but rather that they are less motivated by a sexual variety in partners – which is true.
If it wasn’t, we couldn’t observe that they are *more* discriminating.
” akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. “
And who says that?
When a female orgasms her uterus and kegel muscles contract in a rhythmic and repetitive manner for up to several minutes. These contractions repeatedly “dip” the cervix into an area where semen pools at the top of the vaginal canal and create a bit of a sucking action drawing semen into the uterus.
I won’t argue studies or the evolution of the reproductive system, but the above is true and must mean something.
This discussion went down the rabbit hole eh?
” akin to the one claiming that women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness. ”
(Paragon) And who says that?
I hear one form or another of this belief practically all the time. See post 111 under the “a man is serious about you” blog entry, for instance.
@ Rachael
“When a female orgasms her uterus and kegel muscles contract in a rhythmic and repetitive manner for up to several minutes. These contractions repeatedly “dip” the cervix into an area where semen pools at the top of the vaginal canal and create a bit of a sucking action drawing semen into the uterus. “
The thing to remember, is that uterine contractibility is necessary for cervical dilation prior to birth(where studies have found that gential tract stimulation, can help induce this response).
And, considering the surrounding ennervated tissue, I would regard orgasm as incidental *until* it can be shown, conclusively, as a significant contributing factor to fertility.
@ Erica
“ I hear one form or another of this belief practically all the time. See post 111″
“We men indeed do go a lot more by physical attractiveness than you women go by.”
As you can see, this is far from claiming that ‘women do not care about a man’s physical attractiveness’.
I love this “visual type” argument.
It relates to the age old bs (don’t bother quoting studies, men, I can find opposite studies) that men are more “visual” . How’s this for some hard hitting reality? We are multi-orgasmic. For a reason, and it’s FABULOUS! But that is only because your wallet does it for us….we like you for your money. *snicker* Our love for you can do this for us, your lovemaking does it for us. Our appreciation for the male form, broad shoulders, a large penis, nice face…has nothing to do with YOU. We love you. We do not compare you to those 25 year old men. Did we say we love you? Maybe you should deal with it as reality and move on.
MEN are currently in control of this culture. Movies, media, advertisement. Of course women are objectified…it would be the opposite if we ran the show. I watch porn. I do it. So does he. Both infrequently. Don’t care, but yes it did bother me. Why-because of the focus is almost exclusively on the woman, cams (to me is cheating), and in the last 15 years has gone off the rails. A lifetime of body shame and forced guilt will do that to us until we overcome it.
To the guy who keeps quoting testosterone as an excuse, yet it is true to an extent, but we also have sex hormones that effect libido.. Just ask your gyno. 😉
We women appreciate the visual beauty of the ocean, a gorgeous sunset, a pretty flower, the grand canyon. When it comes to visually enjoying men, somehow we hit a brick wall. It all ceases. We suddenly are blind.
I have a feeling men are behind these ideas. They do not want an even field. Hell, full frontal in a movie is rare, god knows that many men don’t want to be offended by a schlong bigger than their schlong. That isn’t conjecture, it has been said. Studio heads don’t want to offend men in a movie….but alas, men, change is on the horizon. Men will also be portrayed as sexual in their nudity, and not for cheap laughs as it is now if at all.
Keep the remote handy if you are easily offended by our noticing or appreciate of the gorgeous male. We will keep it classy though. We aim to please.
Last night I watched a show, Penn and Teller on Showtime. At one point, each woman took off her shirt. The show was about WALMART. Hey they are just boobs, but it was completely gratuitous I can’t speak for all, but it pissed me off. I think many of us are sick of being used as window dressing for something completely irrelevant. Women watch the show as well, and this comes from a bi-sexual woman… Sex scenes, in context-big difference.
Welcome, welcome to our world…minus the lifetime of slut shaming and clamming up about our sexual desires.
High five ladies. This isn’t a competition, its a reality check and an evening the score.
Sorry, Rachael – I was fatigued when I wrote that.
It is now (trivially)obvious to me that female orgasm has not evolved through selective pressures(whether it still may be a contributing factor to fertility, studies have as yet, failed to conclude), given that induced uterine contraction(associated with orgasm, and resulting from genital tract stimulation) is a necessary condition to cervical dilation(essential for live birth delivery).
Thus, the evolutionary nexus of this system is unequivocal.
@102
Actually I was contradicting Evan’s believe, that women are “perfecty content” with a man if he varies it up in the bedroom.
Simply not true.
Just because men may like “more variety” doesn’t mean women don’t either, it just means our motivations are different.
As I indicated, women were intended to collect sperm, as much as men were intended to spread it.
Men have got to stop believing what they want to about women, as much as women need to stop believing what they want to about men.
It’s a waste of time.
@101
yes, this is true.
Men often say to women, we must accept that men are sexually motivated and will be sexually attracted to other women, and that women must accept it.
They then often turn around and say comments such as “woman are naturally monogamous ” or “women are happy with one male partner who provides” or variations on this theme.
If this isn’t a classic example of men telling women who they are, I do not know what is(While they complain all the time, that we tell them who THEY are).
It’s ironic.
I accept male sexuality as it is, but I choose a man who controls it.
Men have not yet learned to accept female sexuality, therefore they also do not look for a woman who can control it.
They go for what they “believe” is sexually acceptable to them, IE a virgin, or a woman who has sex straight away proving she loves it and he can be happy with her.
Paragon, you do yourself no favours by not understanding female sexuality and believing what you want.
@100
You said
“Sexual Pleasure in Women Not Evolutionary ”
Everything in our nature is evolutionary otherwise it would not have happened.
We evolved.
Why these traits occured, may be up for debate from an evolutionary perspective, but the fact that they DID evolve, isn’t up to debate, unless one is a creationist.
Try again.
ev·o·lu·tion
/ˌevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
I have yet to understand how evolution is taken as fact when it is only a thought.
Often people confuse it with adaptation which is an actual action.
Perhaps it is just a way to justify lack of discipline.
My genes made me do it.
We all have choices.
Paragon, I think I may have lost track of what point you’re trying to make. That said, I never claimed (I don’t think) that women are programmed to seek out AS MANY partners as men, rather that they are also programmed to seek out multiple partners/have affairs, rather than commit to one guy forever after. The sexual strategy for women is (supposedly) to find a stable, LTR and then cheat on him with a lover or two with better genes. Cuckholding, essentially. The male strategy is to spread it far and wide to as many females as possible.
I don’t think this “business model” as it were is very flattering to either gender. Not much about evolutionary biology is particularly flattering.
In “The Red Queen” the authors theorize that marriage/monogamy was a mating strategy implemented by MEN. That’s because otherwise one highly successful alpha male who controls a large amount of resources can have a harem, leaving many men spouseless, childless, heirless. Therefore the adoption of “everybody gets one someone” so that less desirable males weren’t left out in the cold.
I’ve also read studies (forgive me for not finding and linking to them, but they should be easily Google-able) that say that a two-parent system raises more healthy, more successful offspring than a one-parent model. Hence, men are also programmed to pair-bond with one desirable female to be present to ensure the passing on of their genes while, perhaps, slinking around seeking a little fun on the side. Fathering as many children as Soloman is, apparently, not the point of the male reproductive system. Supposedly, there’s so many sperm in two samples of male ejaculate that we could repopulate the earth. (Or something along those lines.) Why do you think there’s so many? The theory is competition with other males, not because such abundance is necessary. (It’s clearly not.)
There’s also been studies about the role of the neurochemical vasopressin and its influence in how strongly males, in particular, pair bond with females. I’d look those up — they’re fascinating. Males with low amounts of vasopressin are less likely to commit.
Anyways, after babbling on about all that, I have to say that, despite the dictates of biology, I’m still in Evan’s camp. I think both men or women–regardless of what the studies say or past experiences hold true–should assume their partner is innocent until proven guilty. Trust that he is going to be faithful and not sleep around on the side just because he noticed another woman out of the corner of his eye. We’re animals, but we’re also conscious ones, and just because we have biological urges dosen’t mean we’re obligated to act on them. I have so many male family members and friends that are wonderful husbands and fathers. They would be horrified at the notion of cheating on their wives. I guess we just have to take each person as they come, really.
Ciao.
Just like the male reproductive system, the female system works in complex ways to maximize reproduction. They do what they do for a reason.
I may not be learned in theories of evolution, but the human body, bio/anat/physio are my areas of expertise. The female reproductive system’s subtle complexities (from the cyclical changes in mucosa, to the dilations of the cervical opening to orgasm) all aid reproduction in their own way. Each individual function may not be necessary, but together they are just as much a part of our reproductive success as the more straightforeward male system.
Once again, as always Evan, you are so accurate in the assessment of the situation. The post deals with two issues: why we look and why we cheat. I have done a lot of reading on both subjects, and not to plug anyone, but two excellent books that deal with these two subjects is “Brain Sex” and “The Moral Animal”. Men are visual creatures. We are a product of tens of thousands of years of development, most of which we spent are lives hunting for food and spreading our genes. This has led to the development of extremely strong visual skills and an innate desire to procreate with as many women as possible. Whereas the morals of society have changed over that last several centuries we cannot change who and what we are. So whereas we have learned to be monogamous we can not help but to admire the beauty and physical appearance of females. It is in our nature to do so.
As far as the second issue of why men cheat, I can only use myself as an example. I am on my second marriage. Both my wives are beautiful looking women. In both I still admired the beauty of other women. In the first marriage however I acted on it and had affairs with several women over the course of my marriage. This marriage lasted 13 years. In my second marriage I still act on my desire to look at other women, but I don’t even consider taking the next step. The reason for this is simple. It takes 3 people to have an affair. When one is not getting all their needs fulfilled they look to triangle in a 3rd person to fill the void. My first marriage was filled with “voids”. My second has none. So while I still look and admire the beauty of other women I have no desire to act on my natural impulses. Men will always be attracted to beautiful women. You really can’t change that. But looking is no threat to the women in a man’s life, unless there is a lot missing from the relationship. Thanks once again for the post.
@ AnnieC
“Actually I was contradicting Evan’s believe, that women are “perfecty content” with a man if he varies it up in the bedroom.
Simply not true.
Just because men may like “more variety” doesn’t mean women don’t either, it just means our motivations are different.”
Are you sure it’s variety women crave, and not ANOTHER man?
Let me rephrase that.
While it may superficially appear that female preferences are tending to be highly variable over time, I think this is more a case of varying opportunities over time.
Does the same happen for men?
Absolutely.
The difference is, that men tend to crave a variety in partners at any given point in time – because they are not as sexually selective as females, they have a difficult time splitting hairs between the tall, svelte, leggy brunette with the tight ass, or the shorter, voluptuous blonde with full breasts(indeed, they want BOTH!).
On the other hand, this same degree of inclusiveness fails to present in female sexual preferences(which are predictably narrow).
So, while the typical male is going to desire an INCLUSIVE variety of sexual partners at any given time, the selective nature of females is going to tend to limit their considerations to a single partner at a time – the very BEST one they can acquire(where a female desire for OTHER sexual partners is actually speaking to a desire for a BETTER partner).
“As I indicated, women were intended to collect sperm, as much as men were intended to spread it.”
Actually, females have NOT evolved a capacity to ‘collect sperm’ in equal measure to the male capacity to ‘spread it’.
And this fact is THE fundamental, biological difference that forms the evolutionary basis for sexual dimorphism(and the many characteristic sexual ‘differences’ that we observe).
“Men have not yet learned to accept female sexuality, therefore they also do not look for a woman who can control it.”
They don’t?
Wouldn’t that, in fact, explain men who PREFER virgins?
“They go for what they “believe” is sexually acceptable to them”
So, you are saying these ‘beliefs’ are spurious?
Could you please elaborate on that point?
“Everything in our nature is evolutionary otherwise it would not have happened.”
Yes, but NOT everything that evolves, evolves through evolutionary SELECTION(which was the implication of that statement, given the context of the study, and it’s findings).
“Why these traits occured, may be up for debate”
That is, indeed, the crux of the debate(what else do you suppose we are arguing?).
“from an evolutionary perspective, but the fact that they DID evolve, isn’t up to debate”
No, it isn’t – so why are YOU pretending otherwise?
@ Marisa
“Paragon, I think I may have lost track of what point you’re trying to make. That said, I never claimed (I don’t think) that women are programmed to seek out AS MANY partners as men, rather that they are also programmed to seek out multiple partners/have affairs, rather than commit to one guy forever after. The sexual strategy for women is (supposedly) to find a stable, LTR and then cheat on him with a lover or two with better genes. Cuckholding, essentially.”
But cuckolding(female strategic pluralism) ISN’T motivated by an advantage to MULTIPLE sex partners, but rather the advantage of covertly mating with a higher quality mate(while the long term – sexually inferior – partner continues to provide for HER offspring, none the wiser).
The evolutionary justification of this becomes evident when we consider that males can impregnate MANY different females in a very brief interval, for which females can only be impregnated by a SINGLE male.
“In “The Red Queen” the authors theorize that marriage/monogamy was a mating strategy implemented by MEN. That’s because otherwise one highly successful alpha male who controls a large amount of resources can have a harem, leaving many men spouseless, childless, heirless. Therefore the adoption of “everybody gets one someone” so that less desirable males weren’t left out in the cold.”
All of which SUPPORTS the dynamic I am alluding to – namely, that females tend to sexually select for a SINGLE male at a time(in this case the *singular* hypothetical alpha) – they best one they can get, at any given time.
“I’ve also read studies (forgive me for not finding and linking to them, but they should be easily Google-able) that say that a two-parent system raises more healthy, more successful offspring than a one-parent model.”
That is bi-parental advantage(I am very familiar, no citation necessary).
“Hence, men are also programmed to pair-bond with one desirable female to be present to ensure the passing on of their genes while, perhaps, slinking around seeking a little fun on the side. Fathering as many children as Soloman is, apparently, not the point of the male reproductive system.”
The reason why we have pair-bonding males, is because ecological pressures – during some distant evolutionary past – selected for bi-parental advantage as a necessary component to a stable sexual population.
Pair-bonding males are thus preserved through various mechanisms – but primarily through an acute disparity in short-term mating opportunities which incline(aided through the kinds of inherited biological factors you allude to below) less physically attractive males to demonstrate an alternate function of value to females(such as an investment in the survivability/success of her offspring), in exchange for mating privileges.
All of which explains why monogamy is in acute decline throughout developed world populations – since the survival/reproductive success of offspring are no longer dependent on a 2 parent dynamic, evolutionary pressures have relaxed selection for it.
This manifests in a (increasing)proportion of females who no longer value these benefits(implicit of monogamy) sufficiently to consider those men who are most inclined to offer them(ie. average, or below-average looking ‘nice-guys’, who are bereft of short-term mating opportunities).
@ Rachael
I am not saying that female orgasm does not aid in fertility(this may, in fact be the case – but will have to wait on confirming evidence).
I am only saying that, given what we know, it could NOT have evolved that way(ie. it could not have been selected for because of a conferred fertility advantage – which, as I have already explained, is a *hypothetical* NONESSENTIAL benefit to a system with an ESSENTIAL function in reproductive viability).
Paragon, why do you think a woman would stop at just one alpha lover? Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win. They’re both highly desirable bearers of DNA for her future offspring and, after all, whichever sperm “wins” and fertilizes the egg is of less consequence to her because the resulting offspring will bear HER genes, regardless.
Which brings me to another point. You’re certainly entitled to your preference in partner, i.e., if you prefer a woman with less sexual experience or who is a virgin, you’re not wrong to want that. It’s a perfectly viable reproductive strategy. But–and I’m not saying you’re doing this–but let’s not say that women who accumulate more experience or partners or who want to explore their sexuality more freely than that are in the wrong. I do feel compelled to point out that the male desire for virgins you bring up comes from a fear of not passing on one’s DNA to future generations and so attempting through various methods to limit womens’ reproductive options. One of those methods has been to make it socially unacceptable/shame women who are more exploratory with their sexuality. That’s the only reason, because a woman of same reproductive age and health who is not a virgin is just as fertile as one who is. Look at how males versus females have been punished for adultery in the past; women have been punished far more strictly than males. That’s probably because they bear no such reproductive anxiety; their babies are always their babies.
Just as there’s a spectrum in regards to sexual orientation, there’s also probably a spectrum in terms of the expression of sexuality within all those demographics. Gay men are noted for accumulating more partners than gay women or straight women, for example, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t gay men who become monogamous for many years or gay women who want to sleep around and not commit–or straight women for that matter.
When faced with changes in their enviroment, it’s been shown that many species are also able to adapt very quickly. We may say that these sexual mores/desires are deeply ingrained in us, but that also underestimates how very plastic we are. I’d argue that while our biology is the same, the advent of effective birth control in the 60’s (let’s leave STDs out of it for the moment) marks a definite “change in the environment” and both men and women have/are going to adopt new reproductive strategies because of it.
Also, as a side note, you say that a 2-parent model no longer produces more effective offspring (or something to that effect) and so is largely irrelevant, but I very much believe the contrary. Not to say that single moms (and dads) can’t raise wonderfully successful and healthy children–I’m sure they do–but that, by and large, what still produces the best kids/adults is having both mom and dad around. I’d love to see some facts and figures to the contrary, if you have any.
I’m getting away from the science here though; it’s just my opinion. I’m perfectly happy to be wrong. Cheers.
@paragon
I get what you’re saying. I feel like you’re not getting what i’m saying.
Aside from releasing an egg and flushing the unused nothing else about the female system is necessary taken individually. Working in harmony they increase chances of conception. Example: An ovulating female (ovulation brings together many factors) with a high ability to achieve orgasm is far more likely to concieve than a female in early cycle who can’t orgasm. Both could likely concieve. Not impossible.
I just think while men are evolved and “programmed” to spread cast amounts of sperm, females are evolved to increase chances of conception and programmed to welcome male advances. Not to “collect” sperm as others have said but rather to welcome advances, increase opportunity for mating, and create a hospitable environment for conception. All while selecting the fittest males available.
So, while males look and have urges to stray to spread seed…Females demure and stray to increase oppirtunity and strength of genes.
On a side note I just woke up and i’m having a hard time putting my theory into words.I hope it comes across. I think it’s valid and worth contemplation.
Pardon the typos and to clarify: “programmed to welcome male advances” should translate to welcoming the advances of the more “fit” and genetically stronger males.
Straying not to collect copious amounts of sperm, but straying to collect “better quality” sperm 😉
In addition (something that just came to mind) women are also programmed with a very deep and strong desire for children. Many will simply leave a man unwilling to provide them. This desire may not be a necessity but it sure does help!
@ Rachael
” I get what you’re saying. I feel like you’re not getting what i’m saying.
Aside from releasing an egg and flushing the unused nothing else about the female system is necessary taken individually. Working in harmony they increase chances of conception.”
I need to clarify.
The proposed fertility advantages of orgasm results from induced uterine contractibility – this, however represents a secondary non-essential function to the system.
The ESSENTIAL function of induced uterine contractibility is cervical dilation prior to live birth(a capacity for which couldn’t have evolved without it) – so this is where we should expect the evolutionary nexus of uterine contactibility lies.
Taken from this perspective, orgasm must be deemed an incidental benefit to the system.
” Example: An ovulating female (ovulation brings together many factors) with a high ability to achieve orgasm is far more likely to concieve than a female in early cycle who can’t orgasm. “
Interesting – do you have any links to scientific findings?
“I just think while men are evolved and “programmed” to spread cast amounts of sperm, females are evolved to increase chances of conception and programmed to welcome male advances.”
Yes, but which males?
The SINGLE best(deemed) specimen available to them at any given point in time.
Unlike with males, females accrue no benefits by considering any male beyond the apparent *best*.
Again, Sperm-wars in humans is DEBUNKED.
So, there remains little justification for the idea, that HUMAN females should favor more than one male.
@ Marisa
” Paragon, why do you think a woman would stop at just one alpha lover? Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win.”
Again, the idea of sperm wars in humans, has been debunked(did you read the link I posted?).
” Which brings me to another point. You’re certainly entitled to your preference in partner, i.e., if you prefer a woman with less sexual experience or who is a virgin, you’re not wrong to want that. It’s a perfectly viable reproductive strategy. But—and I’m not saying you’re doing this—but let’s not say that women who accumulate more experience or partners or who want to explore their sexuality more freely than that are in the wrong. I do feel compelled to point out that the male desire for virgins you bring up comes from a fear of not passing on one’s DNA to future generations and so attempting through various methods to limit womens’ reproductive options. One of those methods has been to make it socially unacceptable/shame women who are more exploratory with their sexuality. That’s the only reason, because a woman of same reproductive age and health who is not a virgin is just as fertile as one who is. Look at how males versus females have been punished for adultery in the past; women have been punished far more strictly than males. That’s probably because they bear no such reproductive anxiety; their babies are always their babies. “
You are absolutely correct in your assessment – these prejudices/double-standards exist because there are double-standards in nature(and thus are justified, in evolutionary terms).
The term we have for this is ‘sexual conflict’.
“When faced with changes in their enviroment, it’s been shown that many species are also able to adapt very quickly. We may say that these sexual mores/desires are deeply ingrained in us, but that also underestimates how very plastic we are. I’d argue that while our biology is the same, the advent of effective birth control in the 60”²s (let’s leave STDs out of it for the moment) marks a definite “change in the environment” and both men and women have/are going to adopt new reproductive strategies because of it.”
A fair assumption – and it may be speaking to the reason why developed world populations are experiencing a trend towards sub-replacement fertility(ie. they are not adapting, quickly enough to changing environmental pressures).
” Also, as a side note, you say that a 2-parent model no longer produces more effective offspring (or something to that effect) and so is largely irrelevant, but I very much believe the contrary. Not to say that single moms (and dads) can’t raise wonderfully successful and healthy children—I’m sure they do—but that, by and large, what still produces the best kids/adults is having both mom and dad around.”
I don’t know what standard you are using to measure the ‘best’.
Evolution is only sensitive to factors contributing to reproductive success(ie. it isn’t concerned with independent ‘quality of life’ outcomes).
“I’d love to see some facts and figures to the contrary, if you have any.”
We don’t need studies, statistics will suffice:
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/living/out.of.wedlock.births_1_out-of-wedlock-unwed-mothers-wedding-dress?_s=PM:LIVING
Here, short-term mating interactions are demonstrating increasing reproductive success.
This is saying something very significant, about an evolutionary shift between successful mating strategies(and is actually what we should expect, given that relaxed ecological pressures in developed world populations can no longer sustain the competitive, bi-parental, advantages that favor long-term mating).
@ Marisa
“Let’s say a woman, in a LTR with her “stable” beta partner, suddenly finds herself with the choice of mating with both Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp (absurd, I know, but bear with me). She might very well decide that she likes them both and sleep with them both and let the best alpha male sperm win. They’re both highly desirable bearers of DNA for her future offspring and, after all, whichever sperm “wins” and fertilizes the egg is of less consequence to her because the resulting offspring will bear HER genes, regardless.”
To clarify, while females may, under *very* exceptional circumstances, find it difficult to choose between two prospects of apparently equivalent quality, such a rare crisis of choice does not speak to any evolutionary justification for favoring multiple sexual partners within a brief reproductive interval(at least where mating is motivated soley by physical attraction, which is the assumption here).
This is because, many assumptions of sperm-competition don’t seem to hold in humans for a variety of reasons(such as penis
morphology – which appears adapted to displacing sperm from previous copulations), rendering many precepts of sperm competition rather moot.
Again, I am not denying that there are special cases where women really DO want to mate with multiple, high-quality, mates within a brief window of time.
I am simply arguing, that this has not evolved as an adaptive
behavioral trait in any obvious way(oxytocin is also another mitigating factor, that would seem to limit this kind of behavior – whomever she chooses FIRST, she is liable to get ‘hooked’ on).
Which is why, outside of hypothetical special case scenarios, I would suspect it rarely presents.
After I went back and read what you wrote to others in your prior post I felt like I mostly agreed with what you said about females requiring (or not) multiple males. I wasn’t saying they do. I was leaning towards fitter males over less fit males.
I really don’t want to search out a link to prove that ovulating females have a higher probability of conceiving. If I really have to I will, but it’s a very basic truth. All I was trying to say is if all the positively contributing factors of conception come together at once conception is more likely.
I apologize I won’t put in the effort it takes to prove myself right on the orgasm thing. I have seen video of it happening when I was in school. Fascinating to watch and it looked mechanical and purposeful.
Ok I conceded and did a quick search but I found mostly articles on fertility websites. I found one on “scientific american” that referrenced it in passing but that particular article didn’t provide much info.
Interestingly I discovered the cervix also “dips” during ovulation. I suppose rendering an orgasmic dip useless during ovulation.
I’m not trying to prove it necessary so it’s unimportant. I just think it’s cool how through the selection of evolution we retain very subtle functions that aide the continuation of species. Really fascinating stuff.
And I apologize to all for being so off topic. I love discussing physiology and biology.
@ Rachael
I agree.
However, something that frequently gets lost in these kinds of discussions, is that even traits with a justification in some distant evolutionary past, are not always adaptive in a prevailing environment(the conditions by which they became fixed in human behavior, no longer exist).
And that is something that I think is important for everyone to remember, especially with respect to behavior – as we have a tendency in trying to rationalize persisting biases using justifications that have not held throughout evolutionary time.
@ #111 Two of Us Dating…I appreciate your post & your honesty. I am the one that asked the original question to Evan. It came from a place of hurt because I have never been with a man before like my husband that likes to admire other women so much. I’m sure men in my past have but they must have been a lot more discreet about it. He just seems so much more interested in watching other people than engaging with me. I’m not sure I will ever understand it but I have been trying. Noticing or glancing is one thing, but looking over & over & over I find disrespectful & hurtful. We have had lots of conversations about it & he has curbed it somewhat. But it has hurt my self esteem quite a bit. Not to be conceded but I am an attractive woman & have a lot of men looking at me when we go out. In my opinion, 9 times out of 10 the women my husband is looking at are women I don’t consider to be more attractive so I don’t get it. Have you ever heard the saying “why go out for a hot dog when you have steak at home” – that’s kinda how I look at it. At this point I feel like men are never satisfied with their woman, in the looks department anyway. It doesn’t matter how beautiful or hot their wife/gf is they still always want to look at other women & check out the goods. He tells me all the time how beautiful I am & how no other woman means anything to him but his actions don’t necessarily match that. So I guess my question is – why if my husband has a wife that’s a 9.5, does he constantly check out other women that are 7’s & 8’s? To me, it makes me feel insecure, even though I know I shouldn’t be. I have been trying for probably over a year now to understand it but I am still baffled. We have a great relationship other than this issue but I will say we had a very rocky start where he didn’t treat me well for a long time & involved him lying to me a lot. I believe in my heart he is a changed/much better man, but at the same time I think we are still building trust, so maybe that is where this all comes from? That I still don’t trust him? I do think our past has affected me greatly so maybe I am not totally over it. Even though it’s been 2 years & now we’re married….Any more thoughts Evan?
Cat asked: (#121)
“why if my husband has a wife that’s a 9.5, does he constantly check out other women that are 7”²s & 8”²s?”
7s and 8s are nice to look at too. So are some 5s and 6s. I wouldn’t call 1s and 2s attractive, but some of them are interesting to look at too.
Some your insecurity is probably due to lingering trust issues. I certainl