I Followed Your Dating Advice for the First Time and WOW!

I am a long time reader. I am a tall, educated, beyond athletic, attractive woman who is successful and age 42. I entered college to get my higher level degrees later in life, and my classmates assumed I was in my 20s (whilst in my late 30s) and I was asked out often by them (Just painting a picture. While looks are not everything, I volunteer with children and animals, my degree is higher level medical, I am into sci fi, nerdy things, and all kinds of music. I have my life together.) I am told by friends and family I am the ultimate catch. I am open to all kinds of people and not judgmental.

Up until recently, I did NOT follow your advice.

I was married in my 20s up until age 30, and that fell apart for the reasons marriage typically do. For the last twelve years, I’ve navigated the online dating battlefield. I have gone on more coffee “dates” than a human should go on. I probably have you beat.

I am not one to get physical right away (I need to know the person), but I’ve had my share like others of meeting people who have lied about their marital status, and hid lifestyles that were dealbreakers for me. n one way–that’s flattering. They wanted me so badly they lied.

In the last ten years I have been proposed to SIX times. Every person that I allowed into my life was high passion, high fireball energy with immediate “high drunk on love” feelings that escalated into an insta-relationship immediately.

I never saw someone proposing to me in the first week in as a red flag (now I do). All of these relationships ended in a supernova.

I would fall in love fast and hard, just like they did with me, but that is not love. Love has roots, and it takes time to build. Infatuation is immediate. With my degree credentials, I can honestly state that I was in love (and so were my suitors) with a preconstructed fantasy of what life should be, and what the relationship should be. People were trying to fit me into these fabricated stories of how they envisioned the rest of their life playing out. Looking back, I know that any skin sack human would have sufficed for these people.

These people came with emotional issues, and although they are quite successful (a couple doctors in there), being with them came with high drama from their side of the fence. It came with constant battles and it was like trying to hug a porcupine. I made excuses because I was swooning, and “in love.”

I am not one to date people into sports and hunting (I live in a state where this is the culture–football is part of people’s lives here) and I pushed away the normal guys.

I remember reading in a post of yours once that someone who has issues or is full of issues is not interesting, it is not good. Easy should be the way. EASY should define how relationships proceed. They are not rocket science.

I never dated in the sense most people date. I would talk to people for FAR too long online, and we would become romantic too quickly, as we thought or volleying of texts back and forth meant we were bonding. That is not bonding. That is not anything.

I went outside the box recently after being asked out by a cop (yeah, I cannot believe it either) who has a basement full of football stuff and plays video games sometimes.

But you know what? The date was normal. There were no high emotions running. I wanted to kiss him, but we just did a peck. It was awkward and there was no explosion of passion. We want to see each other again, and are proceeding.

To add in to this, I was so burnt out when I went, I put zero effort into my hair or anything. I did not dress up. He still enjoyed my company and wants to see me again.

Now I have no idea what the future holds, and I am not making plans for any wedding, but for the first time in my life, I am about to do this normal dating thing with a normal guy, even though I sing in a band, do art, love sci fi, and volunteer.

I finally am seeing a normal human, Evan, and it feels good!

Thanks for reading this, and your online time and effort to help women out there.

Best,

Christie

I did what Christie did and I’ve been married for 10 years now

I usually don’t post reader comments, but figured that it might be worth it to hear from a woman who is making positive changes in her life as opposed to answering another question about “what’s wrong with men/dating/me.”

Have you tried dating against type? What have you discovered?

Once upon a time, I did what Christie did and I’ve been married for 10 years now.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Emily, the original

    I went outside the box recently after being asked out by a cop (yeah, I cannot believe it either) who has a basement full of football stuff and plays video games sometimes.
     Most women love cops. A downtown man could be what the OP needs.   🙂

    1. 1.1
      Michelle

      This is a great testimony to getting your own head on straight and working through your issues, insecurities and other demons that attract the “emotional issues” people.  You attract where you are; the people you date and fall for are a mirror of your own personal state.  Emotional issue people are fun; the sex is hot, the butterflies of not knowing where you stand or if it will last of if they will call is not love and not sustainable, and after a while, loses it’s appeal.  Once we get healthy mentally, spiritually and emotionally will we attract the same.  I found the same.  I was a hottie but also an insecure mess in my 20’s and 30’s and attracted the same.  Now that I’m older (and still hot BTW) the guys I attract and are attracted to are very different; kind, stable, sweet, fun, sexy.  No this does not equal boring.  Because I am ready for them now.  Enjoy the cop, you deserve this man.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Michelle,

        You attract where you are; the people you date and fall for are a mirror of your own personal state. 

        I completely agree. You are who you f***, to be crass, but there is no better mirror.

        1. Michelle

          Thank you Emily and very well put I must say. 🙂

  2. 2
    Noquay

    I’ve gone outside of the box numerous times; dated men who were much less educated, overweight, very short, conservative, low income. Every time it was an epic fail and a few times, approached a situation of emotional abuse with a few instances of stalking thrown into the mix. Sometimes our incompatibility and differences in lifestyle was insurmountable and at times it seemed the men were very insecure about who they were (nothing to do with me) and needed to engage in constant put downs, criticism, in some bizarre attempt to make themselves feel superior. Don’t wanna go down that road ever again. There may be relatively few fellow healthy retired brainiacs (what I now and what has worked for me for a partner/spouse) out there but I’m willing to wait. I understand that going outside your type works for many, am glad it worked for Evan and the OP thus far, but for myself, doing so always ended in disaster.

    1. 2.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Noquay, you THREW OUT the box:

      much less educated, overweight, very short, conservative, low income”

      If, after all these years, you STILL think that this is what I advise – and can’t distinguish what you’ve done from making small tradeoffs that pay off in big love, I highly recommend you reach out to me personally. You don’t have to wait for love. You just have to do something different than what you’ve been doing.

      1. 2.1.1
        Noquay

        Evan

        I tried to date these men because that’s exactly what many blogs say to do; compromise. I tried, I really did. Regrettably, while I do much better with old academics such as myself, what I describe is what’s available within a 100 mile radius of here. My only other option in this state is to move to the Denver area, a place I’ve stayed at and despise to find compatible men. Though well read and cultured, I’m not a city/suburban person. We Native folk are big on connection to land, to the natural world, given what’s happened to us. Think a female, slightly younger, Brown version of Scot Nearing or Bernd Heinrich. To that end, I’ve quit my Professorship, put this house on the market, and am trying to leave. I think you do awesome work but the sort of men that I do best with, retired intellectuals who work on remaining healthy and well informed, are rare and I’ll never be able to be happy in an area I despise and/or with someone I cannot connect with. Life is waaay too short for that.

        Again, I’m glad for the OP and hope things work out🙋🏾

    2. 2.2
      Buck25

      “There may be rather few fellow healthy retired brainiacs… out there…”

      Noquay,

      There are some of us out there, just scattered all over the place, so we rarely have a chance to meet. Still, sometimes people pop up in unexpected places, so perhaps you’ll find one someday, and I may find the female version for me eventually.

      1. 2.2.1
        Noquay

        Thanks Buck

        Yep, we’re rare creatures indeed and very scattered. I always had put myself out there, took a chance many times on line, was on many sites. I make eye contact, am feminine yet self sufficient and it wasn’t a case of being rejected (except for distance), it was that I never found many men that I shared values with. Part of the issue is that the state attracts the ski dude crowd, the other being that it’s a 75 mile drive, much of it hazardous, from the major population centers to my mountain town. With my work schedule nine months of the year, driving that far became increasingly impossible. Will be headed to a place within 25 miles of two universities with a (hopefully) better educated retiree population.

  3. 3
    Adrian

    Evan if this takes away from the purpose of your post I hope you delete this before others can read it because my intent is not to spread negativity; BUT…

    Is this the typical woman who struggles with dating?

    When the criticism for Madonna’s speech for Aretha Franklin came up I didn’t understand it but now I think I do. Christie-the letter writer-speaks so highly of herself that it takes away (for me) from the purpose of the post.

    Does the average woman struggling to find love have the body of an amazonian goddess?

    Does the average woman struggling to find love have guys clawing for her attention?

    Does the average woman struggling to find love in her late 30’s have young hot college guys competing to ask her out?

    Does the average woman struggling to find love have guys constantly falling in love with them so easily?

    Does the average woman struggling to find love have so many guys lining up to propose to them?

     

    Again my purpose is not to attack the letter writer I am just trying to understand how a person that is so in demand is like the average woman who says she is struggling to find dates. It doesn’t seem Christie’s problem is quantity so maybe quality? And how much of that is self induced because of how high she values her own worth in the dating market? I know many women who would not look down or see it as being out of the box to date a police officer.

    This reminds me of the joke about 1st world problems. I would guess in dating the problems of those that are in the top 10% are different than the rest of us.

     

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      They are different, Adrian. That’s why I’m a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women. I am very much like my clients. I’ve dealt with the same limiting beliefs. And I figured out, through a decade of trial and error, a more effective way to create love. What we want/need has evolved over time and women who “have it all” have the hardest time figuring out the difference between compromising and settling.

      1. 3.1.1
        Tron Swanson

        Evan,

        I’ve often wondered, what do you do when you’re contacted by women who aren’t smart, strong, and/or successful? Is there some working-class dating coach that you refer them to?

        p.s.: the way you heap praise on women reminds me of the way that Leslie heaps praise on Ann in Parks and Recreation. I keep expecting you to refer to a female poster as “brilliant and kind and stupid hot” or as a “beautiful, naive, sophisticated newborn baby”.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          If you were to sign up for my mailing list, you’d see what women get – a lot of free advice and universal truths that lead to inexpensive products. My paid private clients are the ones who have the luxury of spending $10K on a coach. Doesn’t mean I can’t help lots of women who can’t.

        2. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          I most likely won’t sign up, I’m afraid. I understand my own gender just as much as I need to. On that note, I had your site open the last time my new FWB was here, and upon seeing some popup about meeting or understanding men, she wondered if I had a female or gay roommate that she hadn’t met, yet. Don’t worry, I told her I was checking out your site on behalf of a female friend who wanted to know what I thought. I’ll have to be more careful in the future.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          Wasn’t really asking you to sign up. Was just answering your sincerely curious question.

      2. 3.1.2
        Adrian

        Ah, thank you Evan.

        This puts much of the push back you get from women in a better perspective for me. The women who complain that you are being too hard or unfair are looking at it from their perspective and not your target audience’s perspective. I guess it’s kind of like how many angry men come on here to bash women and promote distrust when in truth the type of women they are speaking of are not your target audience or the type of women you are advising we men court, sexually wait for, take the lead and plan for or pay for.

    2. 3.2
      Nissa

      @Adrian –
      I think the LW’s struggle is more typical than you think. The crux of the struggle is that she’s not getting what she wants. In that way, it’s the same for men that want sex but only get offered relationships, for women that want relationships but only get offered sex, and for both genders who get offers from people they don’t want.
      For example, now that I’m back online, I get ‘likes’ from men every day. However, over 90% of them are outside the parameters I have listed. One can have lots of guys ‘clawing for attention’ without any of them being ‘young hot college guys’. And when they are young attractive guys, they still are over 90% outside of my parameters. You might see this as having ‘guys constantly falling in love with’ us, but I don’t think you realize that it’s more an issue of ‘guys falling into fantasy with us’. By this I mean, if the woman falls into a general category of what the guy wants – hot, single, blond – it’s very easy for him to project his fantasy onto her. Now, there’s some of that in dating in general, but the more attractive you are, the harder it is to get the guy to see past his fantasy of who we are and to see the real woman. That’s why sometimes you see men proposing in the very early stages, because they are trying to lock in that fantasy woman, instead of spending time with her to see if that infatuation haze is based on something real. Most guys will assume that a proposal is what a woman wants mostly (which is not totally inaccurate in many cases). These early proposals can also be a sign of the guy’s insecurity, because he wants to lock her in before she gets to know him and sees his flaws, which might cause her to reject him.
      Essentially, you are right when you say it is an issue of quality, not quantity. I don’t consider Christie a snob for not wanting to date a cop, I wouldn’t either (not because of money, but due to the job’s correlation to alcoholism and domestic violence that I have seen with the police officers I personally knew). When I’m thinking about whether or not to accept a date with someone, my litmus test is usually to ask myself: Would I cringe inside if this person tried to kiss me? Does he have at least one nice or appealing feature, like pretty eyes or an engaging smile? If he is of average attractiveness, is his profile exceptional? If the answers are no, yes and yes, then I open the door to getting to know him. However, you would be surprised at how many men drop the ball right there. He liked me, I liked him back, and then he does nothing.
      Just this week I counted five profiles that included something to the effect of: if you like what you see, send me a message. (I always think of YAG when I see these). While I understand why men do this, I personally don’t respond to that. I see the ‘like’ function as being a dropped hanky, a response. If the man in question doesn’t respond to that, escalating it by being masculine and pursing him will not inspire him to suddenly become a pursuer. Do some men like it? Unquestionably. However, those are not the men that interest me.
      Compromising means being open to qualities that might be an issue while you learn if those qualities will be deal-breakers for you, and trusting yourself to end things if they are in fact deal-breakers. Settling means accepting things you know are deal-breakers for you but accepting the relationship in spite of them. Self-knowledge is knowing which things are deal-breakers and which things you can accept as being parts of a person you love and accept as flawed.

      1. 3.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Nissa

        Just this week I counted five profiles that included something to the effect of: if you like what you see, send me a message. (I always think of YAG when I see these).

        I hate to burst your bubble, but I have no such language in my profile.  Why would any guy put that language in his profile?  Most of the time when a woman initiates contact it is because she is attempting to garner the attention of a guy who is a better catch than the men who are contacting her.  That language is not going to help in that situation. Other times, it is to admonish a man for something he included in his profile to which she took that was probably not meant the way she interpreted it.  If a guy has even a modicum of social intelligence, he removes things from his profile that set women off.

        1. sylvana

          YAG,

          learned that the hard way? haha

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @sylvana

          learned that the hard way?

          Nope, there are just a lot of land mines in the world of online dating.  Even though guys use direct speech, women still read into things.  For example, one of my desired attributes was “not yet a grandmother.”  Some women took that as grandmothers are less worthy when it was meant to be a family life stage filter.   I have nothing in common with a woman who settled down much earlier and whose children are age 30+ with their own children.   It is better to just ignore these women when they contact me than to put up with their tantrums and other assorted drama when I attempt to filter them with my profile.  The reality is that their energy would be much better spent targeting guys who have children that are age 30+ (I list the age of my children in my profile), guys who are at the same family life stage.  Yet, these women are pissed that a desirable guy their age is filtering them based on their grandmother status.   I had one woman vent on me that she could not change the fact that she was a grandmother (she also mentioned that I was unnecessarily reducing the size of the pool of “sane” women, which tells me how she feels about other women).  When I noticed that she was 5’2″ with a minimum male height of 5’10”, my retort was how do you think the 65% of the male population that is shorter than 5’10” feels about you filtering them based on height, something that they cannot change?  That shut her up.

        3. Nissa

          @YAG,
          Hee! You’re funny. I was just thinking more in terms of mind set than actual words. I agree with you that a woman who messages a man to tell him what is wrong with his profile will not be well received, lol. And you are right, I skip right past those profiles, because I’m interpreting those as being men who prefer to be pursued by the woman, which is not my thing. However, it occurs to me that if the man does want women to initiate and pursue, that statement will likely generate contact from women for whom that is a match. In which case, good on them for getting what they want.

        4. sylvana

          YAG,

          and here I was, thinking you might have tried your usual, charming lines in your online profile as well… lol

          You know, somewhere along the lines of: “If you are not one of the majority of women who is overweight, unattractive, let herself go, and generally has nothing to offer, you may contact this top-ten-percenter with a detailed description of your sexual and visual value. If you are very lucky, with just the right combination of hot looks, feminine behavior, brains, and willingness to cuckquean, I might choose you to be one of my temporary sex partners.”

           

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @sylvana

          and here I was, thinking you might have tried your usual, charming lines in your online profile as well…

          That was hilarious.  I am going to use it next time. 🙂  I was admonished today for something that was downright pedestrian compared to that stuff.   Hardcore feminists love to hate on me. Today, the hate was directed at my desire for a woman who leads with feminine energy.  It does not matter what one includes in one’s profile because someone is going to object to it.

        6. sylvana

          YAG,

          Ha ha! I totally knew you were going to say you’ll use that one. I almost dared you to use it, then figured you most likely would, and probably even get fantastic results with it.

          As to the hardcore feminists… I put on battle armor before I walk into a room full of them. They’re vicious. And I swear, they get offended just for the sake of getting offended.

          I think the problem with feminine and masculine energy is that most people don’t understand what that actually means. That’s why so many people get offended by it.

          The other problem is that so many men who clearly do not have strong masculine energy still expect women to lead with feminine energy – while making it impossible for the woman to do so.

          I’m an extremely strongly masculine energy woman. But even I switch to more feminine on the rare occasion that I encounter a man who has more masculine energy than me (or who’s at least even, and willing to go stronger masculine).  And gosh does it feel nice to not have to be the one carrying all that weight on your shoulders all the time.

          But, once again, those men are rare. The majority of men asking women to lead with feminine energy (or complaining about women not leading with it) are ones who lead with rather feminine energy themselves.

           

          That was hilarious.  I am going to use it next time.   I was admonished today for something that was downright pedestrian compared to that stuff.   Hardcore feminists love to hate on me. Today, the hate was directed at my desire for a woman who leads with feminine energy.  It does not matter what one includes in one’s profile because someone is going to object to it.

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @sylvana

          It is that I am no longer willing to fight for the role of man in a relationship.   The problem is that I am attracted to smart women, and smart women usually duke it out with men in the workforce on a daily basis.  I am not a woman’s competitor, nor am I her subordinate.  That dog does not hunt with me.  One of the best compliments I have ever received from a woman came from a lady I dated last fall.  She was a partner in a public accounting firm.  She said that what she liked most about me was that all she needed to do was show up.  Some woman can operate successfully in a leadership role during the day and turn it off at night.  Others, well, they constantly wonder why they have a difficult time keeping a man who is capable of leading.  If a woman does not allow a man to lead, she will end up with a man who is okay with being led.

        8. Selena

          @ Sylvana

          I think the problem with feminine and masculine energy is that most people don’t understand what that actually means. 

          The first time I remember reading about the masculine/feminine energy dynamic was on dating coach Rori Raye’s blog around 7 years ago.  I struggled to understand it back then, and still find it a bit mysterious to describe now.

          In some previous dating experiences, I sometimes felt frustrated, that something was just “off”.  An example I remember clearly was dating a man who I knew to an extent from a mutual friend. He would ask me out to dinner, and I say “sure, I’d like to”. When he picked me up, I’d ask where we going.  He would say wherever you want to go. Okay, I suggest _____inexpensive restaurant that I saw an ad for something I wanted to try.  No, he didn’t want to go there. Then I suggested an Indian restaurant I’d never been to. No, he didn’t want to go there because he “didn’t eat weird food”.

          “Well, where do you want to go?” I asked. “I don’t know” is his reply.  I’m frustrated that any further suggestion I make is going to be shut down, so I say let’s just go to _____ a beach bar that we’ve been to 2 times before. This scenario plays out a few different times, and at one time I  say, (jokingly to him) “You’re the man, pick a place!” Which was really half jokingly to me.

          I’m cool with suggesting a bar/restaurant/ activity/hanging out. I’m cool with initiating physical affection/sex.  I feel more comfortable when the man does the suggesting/ initiating in the first 4-6 weeks of dating.  Imprecise as it might be,  this has been how the masculine/feminine dynamic feels to me.

        9. Nissa

          @YAG,
          How odd that anyone would be offended by your comment of wanting a woman who leads with feminine energy. IMO, that in no way conflicts with feminist ideals of equality of the sexes.

      2. 3.2.2
        Christie

        Thanks Nissa (Christie here!)
        I wrote in that email to Evan so quickly because I was excited.

        The biggest issue I run in to is people holding on to their phones on dates–addicted to their devices. That is a deal breaker to me. Playing video games for 4 hours a day is a deal breaker for me. People addicted to electronics, and who are drinking to the point of excess who state in their profiles “drinks socially” who are getting drunk on a regular basis, are deal breakers for me. Considering I live in the worst state for drinking in the United States, I have not many options here (I am debating moving out of the Midwest to the West Coast).

        It did not work out (with the cop), because he wants things I do not want (and I will respect his privacy here in not saying what those are, but there are very large deal breakers I discovered that have to do with the kind of relationship he wants with me. ) He also has addictions.

        The people who proposed early on had this fantasy in their heads–bingo, and I check off all their boxes. They even knew WHERE they wanted the wedding, what kind of music, and I thought, holy crap! I am the girl here, and no offense to gender, but I do not even have those things picked out!
        You have stated things my friends have told me, people are trying to lock me in fast and hard without even getting to know me. One person I met on a date intially thought I was a bot! I, as a woman, have not experienced a bot in online dating, but apparently men know them all too well.

        I am trying to find a human to create a life with, I do not have some vision of a life created in my mind with a script while trying to find some accepting person to fill the role. Life does not work that way!

        The only real lists I have beyond compatibility is that people are not excessively drinking, do not do drugs, and are considerate people who have compassion and kindness, and someone who is considerate like me.
        I am just not finding it. I am the woman who leaves little love notes in the glove box on the rare to be found later, or packs a snack bag when I know my partner has a long drive somewhere, and as someone who is in the caregiver position, that is me all the way!
        I am finding people (all so far), are not caregivers. I might be strong willed and in charge in my job, but I am super loving and sweet, and that goes in to how I was raised, which is a long story in itself.

        I have accepted dates with doctors and paramedics because I thought they were going to be considerate and compassionate like me, and that is my fault 100% for projecting that trait on to them. I am not saying docs, EMTs and the like are not caregivers, but the ones I have met are NOT. They are in it to boost their egos and for their own glory. Sigh.

        I have fallen (unfortunately) to the love bomb typical NPD trap with almost all I mentioned. I was love bombed, triangulated, subjected to Jekyll and Hyde behaviors, devalued, and I usually left during the devalue stage. This happened with two doctors who both proposed to me, and when they started in with the abusive behaviors that are typical of narcissistic personality disorder, I dropped them like hot potatoes!

        As I believe I am getting super judged here in other comments, I do not even date based on height, looks, or income. Nice smile matters not–nice HEART matters.
        I am just over six foot tall, and the shortest man I was with is 5’6″, and we were together for a couple of years, who does not work out, who works in retail, and lives paycheck to paycheck, so no, income and education are not factors for anyone else reading this.

        Thanks for chiming in and the non-judgy comment!

    3. 3.3
      ScottH

      I hate to rain on parades, but she’s been on ONE date with this guy.  Claims he’s normal, after one date?  She doesn’t know squat about him.  Yes, it all starts with one good date but that’s only one date-a (data) point and the curve can go any which way from there.

       

    4. 3.4
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Again my purpose is not to attack the letter writer I am just trying to understand how a person that is so in demand is like the average woman who says she is struggling to find dates. It doesn’t seem Christie’s problem is quantity so maybe quality?

      Yes, that’s the crux of the issue. I had a male friend who, a few years ago, was vacillating on whether to ask a woman out. One week he was; the next he wasn’t. Finally, he told me he’d decided not to ask her out because he “wasn’t feeling it.” And I told him that’s how a lot of women feel when they accept dates. He was surprised. I was surprised that he was surprised. He had just described the feeling perfectly. The OP is getting asked out, but probably not by men she’s excited about. She vacillates. She tells herself she should go to see if something develops, as she did with the cop, but it’s a conscious decision versus a “yes, I can’t wait to see this guy.”

      1. 3.4.1
        Nissa

        @ETO,

        That’s an excellent description of the vacillation one feels when trying to be open to possibilities.

        1. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          That’s an excellent description of the vacillation one feels when trying to be open to possibilities.

          I’ve tried it and it’s felt like literally physically pinning myself down to go on the date. One date said to me that he had had an issue of taking his work home with him and that his boss had told him to not worry about anything but his family and a “special lady he might be dating.” And he paused and looked at me, and my first thought was: How do I get of here? Where is the escape hatch? God Lord, could he have been any more obvious?

      2. 3.4.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        She tells herself she should go to see if something develops, as she did with the cop, but it’s a conscious decision versus a “yes, I can’t wait to see this guy.”

        However, is that not how all dating is after one gets beyond one’s teenybopper years?  If that is the gold standard by which everything is judged, then I would argue that most people spend their entire lives disappointed, at least most guys. Almost all of the women I have dated have been conscious decisions.  They were good women, but they never made me feel the way you described.  Maybe, it is different for guys because we have to deal with significantly more active rejection; therefore, we adjust our parameters to include more sure bets.  A sure bet for sex beats a woman who can possibly make a man feel that way, but who represents a large emotional, time, and financial investment with no guarantee of a pay off.  Guys are just nowhere near as selective as women.   We cannot afford to be that selective.

        1. No Name To Give

          YAG,

          I am I understanding you correctly, that a man makes the major life decision of whom to spend his life with based on how easy it is to get sex vs. how much he must invest? If so, that’s good to know. It will save me a great deal of time and trouble.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @No Name To Give

          No, most men make decisions on who to pursue based on the risk of being rejected after making a significant investment.  The higher the risk, the less a man wants to make the investment.  As Evan mentions on a regular basis, men look for sex and find love.  A man is not thinking “I want to have a long-term relationship with her” when he meets a woman who lights his fire.   He is thinking “I want to know what she looks like naked” because men lead with physical, not emotional or intellectual chemistry.  Everything, and I do mean everything is driven by the strength of that desire.  Men and women are very different in this regard, and it can be seen in its most raw form on dating sites when comparing how separated women are treated compared to separated men.   Separated women experience very little resistance on dating sites.  Separated men are treated like they have leprosy.   That is because guys are dating for fun and sex first, a possible relationship second.  For women, it is the exact opposite.  For most women on dating sites, a guy’s value is based his potential for being long-term partner.  A woman’s value is how much desire to have sex with her she invokes.  That is why the hottest women receive many times the amount message traffic as the next tier down.

        3. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          However, is that not how all dating is after one gets beyond one’s teenybopper years? … Almost all of the women I have dated have been conscious decisions.

          Is that how most people date? I’m not being sarcastic. I was wondering that today. I’ve tried conscious decision dating but I have trouble finding motivation. At my last job, there were three men who asked me out. What recommended them — they were single, they were age appropriate and they didn’t appear to have obvious social/emotional challenges, like having their mother as a lifelong roommate. Oh, and they were looking for a girlfriend, which they were really obvious about.

        4. No Name To Give

          Well to those who are looking for love, I wish you all the best.  It certainly is a challenge.

        5. sylvana

          Emily,

          I think you somewhat hit the nail on the head there. Motivation. Especially for women who don’t want children, but I’d say also for women, in general.

          Sadly, as humans, we tend to go for the quick or at least relatively soon reward, rather than something that will take a longer span of time to feel rewarding. And if a woman has already invested a longer span of time without ending up getting a sort of reward feeling (likely multiple times), it’s even easier for her to lose motivation.

          If you have a life you’re overall happy and content with, it becomes even harder. Single life is really not all that bad. So at that point, it becomes a matter of enjoying a comfortable night in or a comfortable night with friends, or putting in a tremendous amount of effort (from finding someone to date to hair, makeup, nails, what to wear, etc.) just to meet some stranger who might or might not give you a bit of a reward feeling at some point down the road.

          High chemistry might fizzle out, but that feeling of excitement certainly does give one motivation. Even if it’ll just be a temporary reward.

           

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @No Name To Give

          Dr. Christie Hartman states that there are four basic types of dating:

          1.) NSA sex, exactly what it means

          2.) Casual dating, more than NSA sex, but less than a relationship

          3.) A relationship

          4.) Marriage

          The huge difference between men and women is that while men will engage in all four types of dating during different periods of their lives, they primarily engage in  1 & 2 whereas woman primarily engage in 3 & 4.   Yes, women will engage in  1 & 2; however, that is not the norm, and a woman usually knows that guy to whom she is strongly physically attracted is not good relationship material when engaging in type 1. On the other hand, guys do not put a lot of thought into a woman’s relationship value when engaging in 1 & 2, that is, they will attempt to have NSA sex with or a casually date women who have high relationship value.   Most women lead with emotional and intellectual chemistry, so in the case of a guy engaging in dating type 2, she is sleeping with him because she has emotional and intellectual chemistry (i.e., a connection) and is hoping that he wants a relationship.  He is sleeping with her because he has physical chemistry and wants to see her naked.  Here is where a woman wakes attached to a man who is done with her because he obtained what he desired.  He wakes thinking about his exit strategy.

        7. No Name To Give

          YAG,

          Oh I get it. Folks gonna do what they gonna do. Some are good at navigating the choppy waters and dive right in. Some not so much and are probably better off in their lone wolf status.

    5. 3.5
      Noone45

      I don’t know too many dating coaches who willingly help clients who don’t have much starting material. Do you see any average (or less than average) looking women in the advertising? Women with a bunch of kids? Disabled women? Women of color? Women with disabled kids? Etc…

      People want easy lives. One shouldn’t be shocked these “dating coaches” pick up on this reality and cater to people who will be easily matched with a few tweaks.

      1. 3.5.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        I have helped women find love who were: 80lbs overweight, 60 and African-American, in a wheelchair, in the Yukon. For every photo you see, I’ve got 20 other clients who don’t want to put their name and face up. So please, spare me your judgment about what we “dating coaches” do when you literally have no idea who I have helped in my 15 year career.

        1. Noone45

          All I know is what you write about. You seem to write very little about anyone beyond attractive, educated, successful women, or letter writers with woefully bad taste in men. Perhaps you should branch out rather than be shocked people judge you based on what you show them? This is something you tell your reader quite often. I’d imagine it should apply to you.

          I make no apologies for being cynical. Matthew Hussey is probably the worst of the lot. His whole video talking about a disabled woman wanting to be loved to an audience of able bodied women was beyond disgusting.  “LOOK AT THIS DISABLED PERSON, YOU DONT HAVE IT SO BAD”.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I am a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women. I publish questions from those who write to me. I don’t create the letters, nor create the audience, nor post photos of women who don’t volunteer to share them. So if it surprises you that I help ANY woman who is willing to invest herself, regardless of location, age, color or body type, that’s not really something I can control.

          Ultimately, people have paid for my products and programs and coaching since 2003. If you haven’t, that’s your prerogative, but maybe you shouldn’t be such a doubter. Why don’t you fill out my application and get a free consultation to see if I can help you? And if you’re not willing to take that step, it just shows me that you find it much easier to troll people like Hussey and I without actually sampling the goods for yourself.

          I’m helping thousands of people you’ll never see or meet and I have the emails to prove it. What are you doing to get love in your life?

          No matter what you say about me, I remain here for you. I believe that any woman who cares enough to make better relationship choices can have an amazing relationship. The rest is up to you.

        3. Noone45

          Why would I fill out your free consultation when I know I can’t afford your services? I’m certainly not attractive, intelligent, or particularly funny, but I’m no fool. My knowledge of my finances doesnt speak to anything regarding my “seriousness” in regards to finding a relationship. Circumstances are what they are and I wont waste anyone’s time.

          Either way, using disabled peoples’ stories as a means to show able bodied people “perspective ” is demeaning. That’s not trolling, it’s called empathy.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          You don’t seem to have much empathy for the people who are attempting to offer free advice on the internet and the limitations and imperfections of writing specific advice that is applicable to the masses when every woman is a unique individual.

        5. Noone45

          Indeed, could I ever know the suffering of a person who willingly writes an advice column? You aren’t writing for the masses. I looked at your site stats. Fairly revealing as to who your audience is, if truth be told. I dont think you are a bad person. You seem to be unaware of your biases and are bit defensive about them. I’m certain the people who hired you are grateful.

          There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting an easy life, it’s a very human need. My life isnt easy, making me unattractive to most men. I’m also an overthinker who is quite willing to point out what is wrong. I’m also ugly. Perhaps I could fix those things, but I cant lose my child, autism or not. I am quite willing to objectively call my reality what it is, nor would I write for it. I dont blame you for your narrow focus, but i do resent the implication your advice would work for most people. Most women (and men for that matter) are not educated in the US, nor are they likely to read for pleasure.

          Either way, the nightly void calls me. I wish you well.

      2. 3.5.2
        Cathalei

        Maybe you’ll say it’s none of my concern but from what you said here and on other posts, I think you’re being too hard on yourself. It’s good that you’re aware of your limitations but you seem to exaggerate them while ignoring what would make you a catch. Plenty of women who are in good relationships don’t have so called perfect bodies, they have them after they have kids albeit their pool changes. If you can’t see any positive in yourself, how would you convey that you’re likeable to potential dates? I’m not belittling your difficulties, just saying that they seem to make you a tad overwrought. Maybe you feel lonely raising your kid. But you are not alone in this.

        I think you should give Evan (and more importantly yourself) a chance. You endured what you did for years, which makes you a resilient person. That’s quite a valuable trait. You seem to be quite humble too, if a bit depressed. Being easygoing is also a big time catcher. Look at it this way, these “perfect” people you are describing have insecurities too as they write posts like this.

        I agree with you about the comment on the disabled lady, disabled people are not charity cases who exist to be paraded about to make others feel better. But it was one ignorant comment, not the attitude in this forum. Best wishes.

        1. Noone45

          “It’s good that you’re aware of your limitations but you seem to exaggerate them while ignoring what would make you a catch.”

          In all honesty, sometimes the good does not outweigh the “bad”. People like to think we all get what we deserve, but it’s not true. Life isn’t fair and some of us get stuck with a heavier load than others. Better it comes to me than most of the people I meet in daily life.

          “Being easygoing is also a big time catcher.”

          Sure, so people can abuse me. Most of the women I know in my situation are magnets for abusive men and pedos. No one with options wants hardship. That’s how it goes. Either way, I’m not unhappy without a partner. If anything, I’m learning how to live knowing I’m not going to be partnered again in life. It is freeing in that I do not have to consider how my choices affect anyone outside of my child. I can watch what I want, read when I want, buy as much yarn as I like, wear whatever I please etc. My married life was a cascade of disasters. Constantly putting out fires I didn’t start. Now that I’m alone, I have a peaceful life and I’m hard pressed to give it up. I’d rather deal with being alone and just doing a NSA encounter two to three times a year. Most of the men who would stay are not worth the trouble. I didn’t come here for Evan’s advice. I just like to read and someone sent me a link to this blog to get my opinion, I think it was last year. Truth be told, reading the comment section is like looking into a fishbowl.

    6. 3.6
      Christie

      I have to use lines to break my paragraphs. Odd. this is a new computer.
      ********************************************************
      Yes, I do have a more difficult time finding someone. I am told I emasculate some men due to my stature and education. I am also 6’1″, so many make the assumption I do not want to date them (the shortest I dated is 5’6″).  I am called a Glamazon quite often. I have more legs than a bucket o’ chicken.
      *********************************************************
      The issue I believe, is that I live in a Big Ten college town. The majority of the men here are in their 20s, and the 30 year olds are wanting children.
      What does a hot college guy have to offer me? No offense, but they have not experienced life outside of their parents’ credit card in the college bubble, and that IS me judging them. They want kids, and are not ready. They do not yet have their sea legs yet. Even if they say they do not want kids, ultimately they will. Do not get me going again on how I have not seen one put their phone down–ever.
      I am debating moving to the Wrest Coast (I live in the Midwest). I believe the dating pool to be too young here–shallow and polluted.) I am actually the least shallow person you would probably ever meet in all other categories.
      ****************************************************
      The people I have met and dated hid their addictions, such as excessive screen use (addicted to phones–cannot put them down!), serious gaming issues, binge drinking, and drug use. I was catfished on lifestyles.
      **************************************************
      I actually have lived in my city for 6 years, and have not found anyone here to date. The poly scene here is massive, and while I am not saying that is a bad thing or judging, poly is not good for me.
      *********************************************************
      They are too eager. They are in love with the idea of falling in love and locking someone in–as Nissa stated in her post. They are so hell bent on finding someone and not taking time to get to know someone and hiding all of their vices, I have not had someone not lie to me yet.
      Imagine how disappointing that has been for me? Time is not money, time is life–I’ve had my life wasted by potential suitors who have outright lied to me about who they are and what they do.
      ************************************************************
      As a 6’1″ long haired red head, I get viewed differently. The men who apprach me talk very pervy, and while I am no prude (I love sex!), they do not talk to me like they talk to other women. Point of fact, one guy in particular, we will call him Bob (no offense to Bobs), was messaging me pervy stuff right out of the gate, wanting to meet me. I told him to go away. He skip traced my dating profile photo using Google image search and found me on Facebook (I have learned since NOT to use the same photos on dating sites that are on my Facebook). He began messaging me there, very aggressive, and very pervy. I blocked him. A few months later, I saw him out in person at a festival here in the city and he was with a woman, and I approached her  after he stepped away to use one of the portable bathroom things (I have no fear in talking to people). I asked her how they met, and asked if he ever talked to her in any way other than respectable, and just started talking about dating with her. She said he NEVER talked to her in any way other than a gentleman should. I get objectified because of my looks. I get treated in a bad way because of my looks. I used to model, and while that is not to sound arrogant, it just is. My brain, my emotions, my being is not seen–just my body. Full stop.
      ***********************************************************
      It is very difficult for me to be seen as a woman who has compassion, is down to Earth despite having all of these hobbies and interests. And I do it all–that is true. I have one speed, and that is full throttle. I am very active with people. I run my neighbor’s dogs on the trails. I sing to dementia patients at the hospital to help with their recovery. I do fundraisers for the animals and bake and coordinate events to help. I have not been able to find anyone who is like that!
      ********************************************************************
      My issues, my main issues has been going for people who have the same common interests I have, and then discovering, oops, they are not considerate people who give back to others. They do not give back to strangers, even if they are doctors, EMTs–or even the cop.

      1. 3.6.1
        Nissa

        @Christie –

        Have you tried running a Tough Mudder? I find those guys to be fine with ‘full throttle’ and as a bonus, they are usually both fit and older. Here’s a link to some in the Midwest: https://toughmudder.com/mud-run-midwest .

        Here are a few things that have helped me find more appropriate suitors: toning down the sexiness of what I wear – no cleavage, no short skirts but clothing that accentuates a ‘nurturing’ look, playing up my ‘softness’ like pastels or blue green to play up my eyes, goes great with red hair too. Make sure to have pictures of you doing your ‘spiritual things’ – drum circle, yoga, plates of zero carb meals, you at pilates studio, you at the Reiki retreat, you in a orange sari with a bindi, pictures of your home fung shui / altar / figurines of Buddha / Ganesh / Quan Yin / crystals. I specifically put in my profile that I’m childfree, which leads to a discussion of what that means – that I have no children by choice. If you meet a younger guy, just let him know that you’d be open to him if he gets a vasectomy. If he does it, then he’s worth dating. Avoiding poly guys is a bit easier as most of them put it in their profiles and you can just skip those.

        Addictions are a bit harder. You can tell the gamers by if they always have the fastest internet connections available (sometimes). It’s more helpful to have longer dates, that’s when the addictions tend to reveal themselves. I do find that people who are committed to ‘healthy’ food lifestyles that are low sugar, are much more likely to avoid alcohol, since the body metabolizes it as a priority, and along sugar processing pathways. People who are fat adapted value it enough to make alcohol a special occasion thing vs a regular thing. The biggest thing (which I have a horrible time doing) is to keep the conversations about them every time, especially in the first few dates, when infatuated people tend to want to know every little thing about you, so they can tell you they like it too and show you what a good match they are. It can help to ask them to show you pictures so that they can spend a lot of time explaining those. Hope this helps.

         

  4. 4
    Designertoaster

    I followed some of Evan’s advice and it also helped me find love. I dated a lot. I met lots of guys that were not for me (boy do I have some stories). I also met guys I would have liked things to go farther with but it fizzled out.  I was mostly online dating and not finding many guys out in real life.

    What helped me most was his talk about how hobbies/jobs and all that stuff…really don’t mean shit to a guy (sorry I can’t point to a specific post, he mentions it pretty frequently though). I mean, they do, sort of. My guy certainly is proud of me for being educated, smart, and athletic. But while all of that can help attract a guy it wasn’t doing anything for building real relationships and chemistry. It didn’t really change how I made them feel. And since I’m kind of shy, it was hard for me to open up on dates or in public. So I tried my best to be more open and more in the moment on dates. I stayed present in stores and coffee shops instead of burying myself in my phone. I made an effort to talk to people. I think I sort of thought I’d just attract someone based on my merits. They are awesome, but that’s not what builds a relationship.

    Also, the bit about wanting a masculine man and being a more feminine woman helped me as well. I am a tomboy through and through. However, jeans and a slubby tee shirt while running errands just weren’t doing me any favors. I didn’t make a big change. I wore a little more makeup (and by make up I mean eyeliner). Spent a little more time on my hair. Put on clothes that fit a little better, were a little nicer. I started putting together better outfits for work, and simple dresses (why did no one tell me casual dresses are basically giant t shirts?!).

    Guess what? My now husband spotted me a day at an event at my gym after making these changes. I’d seen him around the gym quite a bit before that. We went on a date. I focused on keeping it fun and light. Not wondering if we were compatible in the long run. Just talking and enjoying his company. It was SO fun. That date led to another, then another…we got married this past June.

    Don’t get me wrong, we wound up being uber compatible too, which is why we got married (similiar values, goals, kid timelines, work ethics, etc..). It wasn’t all Evan. 🙂
    But ultimately, I don’t think I would have met him without his advice. Thank you, Evan!

    1. 4.1
      Marika

      Thank you for sharing, Designertoaster! I eat up success stories like yours with a spoon ☺

      Any other things you did or bore in mind while dating? Did you date against type or ignore certain things that you thought were important, but weren’t? Were you clear on what you needed in a relationship? Did your husband stand out because he kept showing up?

      I do all the pretty clothes and looking my best. I’ve learned to be more expressive and light hearted on dates (I’m social but can be shy with strangers, particularly when I’m attracted) . For me I think I need a mindset or perspective switch.

      Congrats again 🙂

      1. 4.1.1
        Designertoaster

        Thank you Marika!

        I touched on this in my answer above, but just getting out there was big for me. I had done some clubs and events before but I knew I never really made the effort to connect with people, and I told myself I was fine with nights alone. That needed to change, and it’s what spurred me to volunteer at my gym. I told myself my goal was to speak to at least five new people, and he was one of the five (though he did approach me first).

        As for against type, thankfully that wasn’t something I had an issue with. My dad is a blue collar guy who likes hunting and my mom is a white collar gal whose second career is being an artist, so I learned just growing up with them as parents that being kind hearted and hard working was worth more than a degree or certain requirements that I’ve seen friends have (tall, six pack, 9-5 job, etc) So I really didn’t have too many issues with “type”, it was more finding the sort of guy I was after in the first place! I met and dated a lot of NOs along the way, from Pizza Delivery guys, to doctors to blueberry farmers (no joke).

        I was clear with him about what I wanted. It was a little terrifying. Haha but I knew I wanted marriage and kids so I did eventually sit him down and said “This is what I’m after”. He stood out because he was confident, talking to him was fun and easy and he had passion. A lot of guys I met that I rejected were totally lacking in passion or true zest for life. His passion for his hobbies and for me was something he never hesitated to show!

        1. Marika

          Beautiful & heartwarming story, Designertoaster.

          I’m definitely out there – no question about that! 🙂 But some of your other points I love and will take on board. It never occurred to me to have a goal (like talking to 5 people). Love it! Also, a gym is a great idea, because there are lots of men there, who are healthy and not drunk! Also, if you can be loved as your natural looking self, that’s a bonus.

          I’ve never personally been hung up on height (stupidest requirement ever!!), I did think a degree mattered when I first started dating after my divorce (only ever really having been around degree people up to that point given my studies and career), but I’ve let that go. It’s great that you had a good example in your parents. Unfortunately my parents are ‘good on paper’ (same religion, grew up in the same area, similar politics and views on parenting, well read, morals etc), but fight more than not.

          Also, the fact that with the right guy you don’t need a script or to worry endlessly about choosing your words correctly as to not scare him off. You told him what you were after and it didn’t scare him. Also that word ‘easy’ – comes up time and time again.

          Food for thought, thanks again. Let us know when baby no. 1 comes along 🙂

          It’s funny how when people put it in writing it all seems so easy. I guess we (well, me), tend to get in our own way too much trying to make it harder than it needs to be.

        2. Designertoaster

          @Marika I can’t seem to reply to your second comment, but believe me I know it exactly what you mean when you say making it harder than it needs to be. It sounds like you’re totally on the right track, though! Best of luck. I was single for a long time between my college boyfriend and now-husband (almost 7 years). It seemed so easy for everyone else! Hang in there, you’re going to find someone amazing!!

    2. 4.2
      MilkyMae

      I think the one thing that gets men’s attention is availability.   Looking good is part of the equation but the real motivator is the “I want to be asked out” look.   The smiling, eye-contact and/or a compliment works really well. You can look like million bucks and still repel men when you have a sour puss frown. You can dress up in a ball cap and dingy sweat pants and still get asked out if you give off the right vibe.  I have friends who look great but they have an idea in their head that availability is a stigma.

      1. 4.2.1
        Emily, the original

        MilkyMae,

        I think the one thing that gets men’s attention is availability.

        I think availability is the biggest factor in general, particularly if either side (or both) is looking for a girlfriend/boyfriend, and you can usually tell right away with the energy the other person is putting out and what they say.

      2. 4.2.2
        Designertoaster

        This is definitely part of the equation! I don’t think I was in sour puss territory (at least I hope not!) but I was definitely in “I look to busy/preoccupied to talk to you.” Dressing up a bit and coming out of my shell made a huge difference in the right vibe. After all, who wants to talk to someone who doesn’t even look they like want to talk??

    3. 4.3
      Christie

      This is me! 6’1″ runner, athlete tomboy. Although, the 6’1″ thing is probably killing me the most. I do not date based on height, but men assume I do, or they are just wanting the typical short brunette (I am a redhead).

      I have stepped up my make up game as well and appearing more “girly”. I was lifting very hard for a long time (I have hyper mobile joints–muscle mass protects me– I had joint reconstructions and I do not want any more from sports injuries).

      I am actually not shy, and my male coworkers tell me that is something that is intimidating men as well. I am extremely outgoing and extroverted–I strike up conversations with people everywhere I go. When I go for trail runs, that is more like “pets all the dogs and talks to people whilst out getting exercise”. I have a few adopted dogs as a result that I am taking on runs now that are not my own. It has not helped me get dates, but it certainly has helped in the friend arena.

      Congrats on meeting and finding someone!

      1. 4.3.1
        Designertoaster

        You’re so on the right track! I think people forget that extroversion can have it’s pitfalls too. Introversion can mean hard to approach, but extroversion can intimidate or also insinuate that you’re not single (this happened to a friend of mine a lot for some reason). Of course, they each have their strengths, too!

        You’ll find someone for sure. A 6″1″ badass redhead who loves dogs? Geez, I want to date you and I don’t even swing that way. lol Best of luck to you, Christie!

  5. 5
    Olongapo

    @Norquay……..I may be the male version of you complete with a farm and a propensity towards a strong internal life for probably a similar number of reasons.  Lots of cowgirls, church ladies, and a whole lot of Trump supporters, in my local dating pool.  My dating prospects are kind’ve limited and like you, I have stepped out of the box and have mostly been disappointed by the results.  What I have to offer being a combat veteran, a retired executive, a professional (and published) musician, an accomplished ceramicist (with a studio), former Peace Corps volunteer, a Masters degree, yadda, yadda, yadda, all has to be sublimated.  I am sparked first by appearance (do I want to have sex with this woman?) and than sparked by her mind and sense of humor.  The advantage that I have over my younger self is a reduction of testosterone that clarifies my thinking and if she doesn’t stimulate my mind, that quickly kills any sexual desire.  Been there and done that and do not want a repeat.  My vineyard, my AirbnB business, and my dogs, are really important and unfortunately for a lot of the cookie ladies that show up at my door, I don’t reciprocate in kind because there just ain’t much there (upstairs).  I’ve raised my kids and certainly don’t want to raise any more nor, and this is real important, will I ever compete with a woman’s adult children or her grandchildren. This is a sore subject and I never want to feel like an accessory again.  My “Unicorn” probably lives in Croatia and I’ll never meet her.  I do have “friends” that come to visit from afar and that I talk, Skype, or email with and sometimes, when I’m not so busy, I’ll go visit.  All are middle-aged, accomplished women with resources of their own and lives of their own.  I actually get more out these women then those that live around me.  I’m not moving nor giving up my vineyard, art, and especially my dogs.  I would love to have a partner who shared this life with me but haven’t found one yet so I make do.

    @The Original Poster (if you’re reading) A word of warning.  This guy won’t change.  He may ruffle the edges a little bit but he is who he is.  If he’s on a career track in LE then life will be a little challenging and he will have to expand his worldview.  On the other hand, he might be the perfect fit for you and you can build a future together.  I wish you both the best of luck.

    1. 5.1
      Kenley

      You and Norquay should ask Evan if he would facilitate the exchange of your email addresses to each other. You probably have a much better sense of who you are than on a dating website. And, one of my favorite podcasters met his wife on LinkedIn — she responded to a t-shirt design contest for his podcast and she contacted him to discuss it and the rest, as they say, was history. You don’t have to meet the love of your life on Match or eHarmony. I think it would be way cool, if you met right here on Evan’s blog. Now, that would be terrific success story indeed!

    2. 5.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Olongapo

      I’ve raised my kids and certainly don’t want to raise any more nor, and this is real important, will I ever compete with a woman’s adult children or her grandchildren. This is a sore subject and I never want to feel like an accessory again.

      That situation is apparently fairly common.  Lately, I have been encountering profiles where the woman unequivocally states that her children and grandchildren always come first.  I can understand the part about a woman’s children coming first when they are minors, but we are talking about adult children with their own children.  Encountering this type of language in a profile is a “WTF was she thinking” moment.  I wonder if these women realize that they are telling any man who may be interested that he will always come second?  What kind of man would sign up for that deal?  I thought that beauty of being an empty nester was that one could put oneself and one’s partner first.  However, I guess I was wrong.

      1. 5.2.1
        sylvana

        YAG,

        as a woman who wants nothing to do with kids, let me tell you, this goes both ways. To any decent father, his children (grown or not) will always come first. As they should. This might not be officially stated in a profile (or during conversation), but it is still is reality.

        So anytime you’re involved with somehow who has children that he/she cares about, you’ll come second to those children. The same goes for grandchildren.

        And you better be ready to include those children or grandchildren in your life. If a woman is dating a man who has become a grandfather, he’s likely going to want to see them, or even have them come stay with him on a fairly regular basis.

        That’s why I always had a strict, no-children rule. I really don’t have a problem with him spending HIS time with his kids or grandkids. But that’s not enough. As a woman, I’m fully expected to also spend MY time with them. And that’s not happening. I don’t do kids.

        Worse yet, as a woman, I’m actually expected to want to reproduce. No matter how many times I clearly state that having children is absolutely not an option for me, people somehow think I’ll change my mind later. Especially, if I’m in a long-term relationship. Somehow, having the “right man” is supposed to be the cure for not wanting children. It’s really bothersome when some man wastes a year or two in a serious relationship with you only to end it once he finds out that you won’t actually change your mind about breeding for him, and have really told him the truth right from the start.

        Men as well as women will actually lie and tell you that not having children is no problem for them, because they think they can change your mind about it later on.

         

         

        1. Nissa

          Have you considered getting fixed & putting that in your profile? I’ve seen other childfree people do that. It eliminates the ‘you will change your mind’ chat.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @sylvana

          I am a good father, and I do not agree with you.  I am there for my girls, but the woman that I eventually take into my life will be my primary relationship.  I have experienced what happens when the relationship between me and my mate stops being the primary relationship.  A person who lets their grown children get between you and them is not worth your time.  The woman I was recently dating learned that lesson the hard way.  She let her grown children suck up her time, and I said adios.

        3. sylvana

          Nissa,

          I’ve been trying to get fixed since I was 23. Darn near impossible to achieve, unless you already have at least two children. Guess why? Because doctors insist I might change my mind later. Sigh. In my early 40s now, and haven’t dated in years, so it no longer matters.

          And yes, back in the days when I still dated, I always put in my profile that I not only did not want to have children, but wasn’t willing to raise, or even be around children. Same goes for men I met in real life. If they asked me out, I always made it perfectly clear that children were not an option, and told them they would have to be sure they would be all right with this.

          And they all claimed they were all right with it, until about a year into the relationship. I guess when it came time to think about long-term, they realized that they wanted to have children after all. It’s somewhat upsetting, because it’s a lot of time and emotional investment for something that should, by all means, be regarded as a major deal breaker right from the start.

          But I know women also do this to men who claim they don’t want children (wherever those men might be. I sure haven’t met very many in my life).

          It definitely is good advice, though.

        4. sylvana

          YAG,

          I somewhat understand with grown, adult children. Although there are circumstances (health issues, bad accidents, etc., for example) where even self-sufficient, independent adult children might need their parents’ help again, even long-term.

          I’ve sadly lost quite a few friends to cancer over the years. The last one, at the age of 45, ended up needing to live with his father for the last year of his life. He was too sick the last year, needing help with pretty much everything. Can you, as a father, honestly say that you’d still put your relationship first in a situation like that?

          Even we, his friends, ended up putting a lot of our private lives on the backburner, trying to help as much as we could in his last few years.

          What if one of your children was in a car accident that left him/her paralyzed, or otherwise needing permanent care? There are so many factors that can come into play here.

          And while you, at the current time, have ruled out dating a grandmother because you are at a different time in your life, you are also one to state that you are not necessarily looking for something long-term.

          But for people who are, when they date people 45 or older, the possibility of grandchildren becomes rather great. And a grandparent will want to be involved with his/her grandchildren.

          Do those grandchildren ALWAYS come first? No. But they will likely take up a good amount of time and attention on a regular basis. Here too, there are other factors that can come into play. Something happens to the parents (your partner’s children), next thing you know, the children end up being raised by your partner.

          With a short-term partner, you might be able to avoid this. But a long-term partner who has children – not so much.

      2. 5.2.2
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        I wonder if these women realize that they are telling any man who may be interested that he will always come second?  What kind of man would sign up for that deal?  I thought that beauty of being an empty nester was that one could put oneself and one’s partner first.  However, I guess I was wrong

        Completely agree. But it’s not just a female issue. I have adivorced male friend whose life revolves around his self-sufficient grown kids, and why would any woman  sign up to be with him?

  6. 6
    sylvana

    Oh my!

    This woman has more issues than a person trying to bathe a dozen pissed off feral cats.

    YAG, I think you just found your match. Scratch that, actually. Honey, you have NOTHING on this woman. She makes you sound positively humble.

    The biggest thing that comes across from this woman is her horribly condescending and prejudice attitude toward others. She sounds like a stuck-up bitch who’s trying to convince others that she’s actually a nice person.

    I am about to do this normal dating thing with a normal guy, even though I sing in a band, do art, love sci fi, and volunteer.

    Even though? Is she for real? What, does singing in a band, doing art, loving sci-fi, and volunteering somehow make her a superhuman, rather than a normal one?

    I’m educated… went to college to get my higher level degrees… my degree is higher level medical… With my degree credentials…

    Spoiler alert, folks. She’s EDUCATED. Just in case you missed it. How insecure does one have to be to point that out four times in the span of a few lines?

    Add to that all the different examples to prove just how desired she is by men (asked out by much younger men, proposed to six times-including in the first week, they wanted her so badly they lied, fell in love with her hard and fast, she’s dated more than one doctor), in addition to her good looks, of course. If she feels the need to brag that much, she definitely has serious insecurity issues.

    And let’s not forget she’s not just athletic, but beyond athletic (um…ok. Last I checked, Olympic gold medalists might be incredibly athletic. But even they haven’t made it beyond athletic yet. But, how knows, she might just be one, and look at it differently). I guess it goes along with being a superhuman, rather than just a normal one. Oddly enough, she doesn’t like men who are into sports. Hmmmm…

    I am not one to date people into sports and hunting (I live in a state where this is the culture–football is part of people’s lives here) and I pushed away the normal guys.

    “Normal” – translation: Uneducated, unintelligent, primitive, good-ole-boys. Oh no, she’s not judgmental at all. She simply doesn’t have the guts to say what she really means.  Maybe she needs to put her education to some use, and do some studying. She might just learn that there are plenty of doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. who also enjoy football and hunting. Not to mention that a lot of those “good-ole-boys” are actually highly educated, some of them even earning great money to down right rich. They simply don’t feel the need to throw it into everyone’s face. A lot of them will even enjoy *gasp* culture. Arts, museums, etc.

    Don’t even get me started on the hypocrisy.

    I am into sci fi, nerdy things. But the cop who asked her out plays video games sometimes.

    Watch me reach for my smelling salts, because I’m about to faint. Oh, the horror! A woman who’s into nerdy things being asked out by someone who plays video games sometimes. It’s just too much too handle.

    And speaking of cops…what exactly is so unbelievable about being asked out by one? Too normal? Not successful enough? Well, I guess that collection of football stuff in the basement would come as a bit of a shock to a “beyond” athletic person. Since, you know, athleticism and sports – never a good mix. Eyeroll.

    Then there’s the fact that she admitted (thanks to her degree credentials, let’s not forget those) that she loved a preconstructed fantasy of what the relationship should be. Yet when people tried to fit her into the same preconstructed fantasy, she realized that any skin sack human would have sufficed for these people.

    How DARE they do the same thing to her that she was doing to them? How dare they not make her feel special enough? 

    These people came with emotional issues, and although they are quite successful (a couple doctors in there), being with them came with high drama from their side of the fence.

    What do you even say to someone with that narrow a view of the world? Does she honestly believe that being successful rules out high drama and emotional issues? Or did she simply throw the “quite successful” in to once again remind us of the quality of men she’s attracting? If she wanted a perfect example of successful yet high drama with serious emotional issues, all she had to do was look in the mirror.

    As a matter of fact, I’m more likely to believe the drama all came from HER side of the fence.

    Overall, it seems to me like she used to attract and be attracted to men who were basically exactly like she is, herself. Fake, conceited, condescending, prejudice, hypocritic with serious self-esteem issues who tries to fit her partners into the mold she formed for them.

    In her case, I’d say changing her type would definitely be a good idea, because it would force her to address her own emotional issues. Maybe she’ll become a nicer person through the experience.

    1. 6.1
      amanda

      Agreed, Sylvana – I rolled my eyes so hard at this letter that I lost my balance.

      1. 6.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Agreed.  Not sure if she wanted to ask for advice, or just brag about how great she is and how all men want her.  She sounds arrogant.

        1. Emily, the original

          SparklingEmerald,  

          She sounds arrogant.

          Did you ever notice how almost all letter writers describe themselves as attractive, fit and looking very young for their age (as do a lot of commenters)? I’m sorry, but that’s not statistically possible! Most people look their age, within a few years. It’d be nice to read a letter in which someone writes, “I’m not going to describe myself. Every time someone does, it comes off as bragging.”

        2. Kenley

          To be fair to the OP, Evan indicated that she post thanking him for his advice and he chose to post it as an example of a mini success story.  She did not write in a question.  But more importantly, I wonder why people don’t like when others describe themselves as attractive. While this lady was a little more over the top than most people, lots of women on this blog who say they are attractive, thin, etc get blasted by both men and women, and there are always a guy or two who tell her if she is having any problems with dating, she can’t be as nearly attractive as she thinks she is.   On the other had, when women describe themselves as average 0r below average, then they are accused of having no low self esteem.  I guess the lesson is that people just aren’t allowed to have opinion of themselves in that regard…but isn’t that really our problem?  I know that when I first read the post, I flinched, but when I think about it more, it’s because I was a bit jealous.  I’m just average to below so I wish that I could have all the advantages of being above average in looks.  But, that’s my problem…not hers…..What I might see as bragging, she just sees as stating facts.

        3. sylvana

          Kenley,

          I don’t really have a problem with people describing themselves that way. As long as it’s a quick intro before they move on to the actual point. Considering the type of women Evan’s blog is mostly geared toward, I can understand how a lot of the letter writers would describe themselves that way. (although Emily does have a point)

          The problem arises when basically the entire letter is all about how great that person is, with very little about any actual point. Like in this case.

          This whole letter was about how desirable and educated she was, with one or two sentences about previous bad choices and her current choice in date. In both of which she still managed to point out that she dated highly successful men before (which is either bragging or an insult to her current date), and that she had a date with a “normal” guy despite her being blah blah blah.

          There really wasn’t much to this entire letter, short of us learning how great she is.

      2. 6.1.2
        K Mol

        Same here.

    2. 6.2
      Clare

      Gosh sylvana, I did not get that from her letter at all.

      What I read from it is that she considers herself a bit eccentric or unusual and has, in the past, tried to date guys like her in the belief that they would be “interesting.”

      And since that didn’t work out very well, she is trying to date against type.

      Even though her terminology might be a bit generalised, I actually applaud her for being willing to try something different. I got that she is recognising that perhaps the type of men she has been going for lack the qualities to make a long-term relationship work, and that perhaps she could try being with someone more stable and consistent (I take that as a compliment for the guys she is dating now, not an insult).

      You jump to a lot of conclusions about the OP which simply aren’t borne out by her letter – she’s Fake, conceited, condescending, prejudice, hypocritic with serious self-esteem issues”? Gosh, really? That’s a hang of a lot of judgment. Perhaps you might want to look at your own insecurity issues?

      1. 6.2.1
        sylvana

        Clare,

        I never claimed I wasn’t judgmental. I totally judge people by the way they talk about themselves and the way they talk about others. And I readily admit it. As most people here would confirm, you never have to wonder what I truly think or how I truly feel. Because I’ll say exactly what I mean. Even if it goes against everyone else’s opinion.

        This letter writer, however, is the type to drop little hints here and there without ever really saying what she truly thinks. If you read it individually, you might not see anything wrong with it. Put the different parts together, however, and you get a whole different picture. The type of person who hides insults behind seemingly harmless, or even nice statements.

        “Oh honey, look at that dress you’re wearing. That style was such a hit last year.”

        You’d probably consider that statement a compliment.

        Sadly, I encounter people like her quite often. They judge everything by appearances, rather than by what actually is. Even when she speaks about herself, it’s all about her looks, her education, her interests. It’s all about her image.

        And just where in the world did you get that she’s trying to be with someone stable and consistent? She never mentioned that at all. The only thing she mentioned was “normal”.

        Normal, as in he is into sports and hunting, and football (her words, not mine). Not the “highly successful” type she’s used to dating. Apparently a simple cop doesn’t qualify as such.

        No mention whatsoever of his actual qualities (he seemed kind, laid back, comfortable to be around, etc.). No mention of his character, whatsoever. Just that he has football stuff in his basement and plays video games sometimes (appearances). For someone who’s tired of drama and emotional issues, shouldn’t personality be the most important thing, rather than his work/hobbies?

        At best, I give her credit for easing up on chemistry. Since did mention there were no high emotions running. But she never even mentioned that she enjoyed the date or the person. Just that his image is much different than what she’s used to, and that there was no crazy chemistry.

        I did recommend her for thinking outside the box. But she might not get very far if the only thing she changes is the appearance/image that the person she’s with.

        If you can’t see how a letter that’s 98% about how educated, desired, and generally better than “normal” people she is, you’re either the same type of person, or you’d get eaten alive by one of those.

         

         

         

        1. Clare

          Sylvana,

          “If you can’t see how a letter that’s 98% about how educated, desired, and generally better than “normal” people she is, you’re either the same type of person, or you’d get eaten alive by one of those.”

          So now you’re purporting to know me as well?

          I’m doing just fine thanks 😉

          The fact that you admit (and seem to be rather proud of) the fact that you’re judgmental and that people “always know what you think” doesn’t mean that there isn’t some serious myopia in both your comments.

      2. 6.2.2
        Christie

        Thanks Clare.

        That is pretty much what I meant, and I am eccentric.
        Thank you.

        Even in my friendships, and I love my friends dearly, I am friends with people who I might share one thing in common with or two. I sat back and thought–these are long standing friendships. Why am I not looking at dating people who are not as involved as I am in so many things?
        I was dead set previously with dating people who are eccentric like me.
        I do not knit, I make chainmaille (seriously!)
        I do cook, but I eat mostly raw veggies (which sounds funny when I type that.)
        I meditate, do yoga, but also believe in (it’s my degree, I better!) Western medicine. I used to teach martial arts but now just practice in my home.

        I like concerts but am not a fan of bars. People in my location get falling down drunk at even fancy events (see my prior comment, I live in the drunkest state in the U.S.)

        I will not be the first to admit, I am out of place where I live. On OKCupid, there is a logarithm that allows you to look at your “match” questions, and you can see how you compare with those in your area, and those in other areas. Portland Oregon is where I should be moving to. 😉 Not that those questions are an indicator of lasting anything, but I certainly have more  in common with those folks, SF in California being the next spot

        I am different than those in my area, and it impacts dating.

        I listed all of that in my email to say I cannot find someone who I mesh with who has similar hobbies., so I am stepping into the “normal” pond.
        I do not consider myself normal (for this area).

        I’ve gone for the types that bring high emotion but are flashes in the pan.

        I was excited about my new journey when I wrote it, and should have taken more time to construct what I was trying to convey.

        That is exactly what I meant in my convoluted write in.

        1. Nissa

          @Christie,

          I think perhaps your environment is causing you to think that you are less ‘mainstream’ than you are. I live in Southern California. Most of the people I know do at least one or more of those things: eat raw/paleo/keto/low carb, do yoga, meditate, don’t drink/smoke/420 , do martial arts and believe in Eastern concepts such as reincarnation / the Way / Law of Attraction / Kabbalah / Buddha / Quan Yin.

          I used to think that these were not mainstream things. But as I ‘come out of my closet’ and admit my ways, I am constantly finding people who match me (Law of Attraction in action, perhaps?). I went dancing last week and met a nice young man who, like me, does a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and follows the same thought leaders. He also lived in my area and liked to dance. Now, I would have told you the likelihood of my meeting someone like that was small. But it happened, so something positive is going on. Alas, he was not my type, especially in his being more than 10 years my junior.

          Evan has a point when he says to compromise on non-deal-breakers. So just make sure to make your deal-breakers about value, instead of circumstance. That means looking at values like emotional availability, consistency in behavior & belief systems, honesty, and desire for a similar life.  That means showing a man the life you want to lead, and give him the opportunity to join you in it. This is very different than imposing your values. If he wants something differently, release him gracefully and ask (insert God belief of choice) to show you what you were learning in that attraction.

          You may want to try more spiritually based online dating services, such as MeetMindful, DharmaMatch, IndianDating.co.in, Shaadi.com, SpiritualSingles, Conscious Singles or Just Spiritual Dating. 

    3. 6.3
      Yet Another Guy

      @sylvana

      YAG, I think you just found your match. Scratch that, actually. Honey, you have NOTHING on this woman. She makes you sound positively humble.

      I am going to have work harder.  🙂

      1. 6.3.1
        sylvana

        YAG,

        You actually remind me a lot of my friends. You say what you mean/think, you’re not afraid to voice your opinion, even if you darn well know you’ll catch heat for it. And, lord knows, you take it as well as you dish it out. And keep a good sense of humor (and self-deprecation) about it.

        I have to say that I absolutely respect you for that. I’d even have to go as far as saying that (aside from dating), you have quite a few positive qualities that make me rather much like you as a person.

        Hats off for being a good sport.

        And yes – please do work on it a little harder. I’m beginning to miss arguing with you.

    4. 6.4
      Nissa

      @Sylvana,

      I think your words are a bit harsh. Like all of us, the LW is trying to give us a sense of who she is and her experience. I got the sense that she is more interested in doing activities vs watching things on tv, or collecting things – and was trying to show us that the ‘normal’ men she was meeting fell into the more “watch / collect vs do” paradigm (which has very little to do with education or intellect). I also got the sense that she was trying to tell us that she has a lot of qualities that would appeal to a large variety of men – nerdy men, men who like different kinds of music, men who like sci fi.

      Where I would agree with you is that she does seem to see herself as ‘not-normal’, but I’m not sure that is the same thing as seeing herself as ‘superhuman’ or conceited. She may see herself as weird, alternative or not-fitting-in, which is a different thing that my look like conceit. Don’t most people feel they are a little weird? In my experience, it is the insecure people who most need to show you how awesome they are, whereas awesome people let their qualities speak for themselves. I imagine that’s harder in print, though.

    5. 6.5
      CaliforniaGirl

      Haha, perefect comment, I had the same feeling about her. Ewww…

    6. 6.6
      Christie

      “Even though? Is she for real? What, does singing in a band, doing art, loving sci-fi, and volunteering somehow make her a superhuman, rather than a normal one?”
      DO you volunteer? I constantly see people saying how empathetic they are, how compassionate, but do zero to give back. THAT is hypocrisy. Going to church and saying you are a good person would be like if I walked into a garage. Does that make me a car? Nope. –Yes. I am told I intimidate, even my dates tell me I intimidate them. I have been called super-human by my classmates, friends, professors, family–even strangers.

      *******************************************
      “I’m educated… went to college to get my higher level degrees… my degree is higher level medical… With my degree credentials…”
      My parents did not pay for my degree like so many others who had that GIFT (from the wallet of their parents).  I did, in my 30s. I initially went for nursing and changed gears as it is a 3-5 year wait to get in to be an RN, and got in to the number 4 school in the U.S. for top medical.  I did this after my divorce, no parents paying–just me. I was in two accidents, both which almost killed me while I was in school and I was told to drop out. I stayed in anyways. I was in physical therapy for almost 18 months staying in school not just full time, but four semesters I had to get dean and department chair approval for my overload (18-24 credit semesters–at my age). I am not modest about school. I was top in almost all of my classes. At first my classmates thought I was not as smart due to my age, and then I blew the curve out of the water. You do not know me. My degree means sacrifice. My best friend killed himself when I was in school, family members died. I am not someone who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. You are mistaken, projecting life experiences on me, emotions, and behavioral traits that do not exist.
      **********************************
      “Add to that all the different examples to prove just how desired she is by men (asked out by much younger men, proposed to six times-including in the first week, they wanted her so badly they lied, fell in love with her hard and fast, she’s dated more than one doctor), in addition to her good looks, of course. If she feels the need to brag that much, she definitely has serious insecurity issues.”I am not insecure. I am quite confident. You are hiding behind a screen, talking down to someone, to try and make yourself feel better. There is a known word for that–BULLY. If you prefer, internet troll. That’s you. If you prefer German, I would call you a Schadenfreude.

      *************************************
      “And let’s not forget she’s not just athletic, but beyond athletic (um…ok. Last I checked, Olympic gold medalists might be incredibly athletic. ” I have been in competitions. My resting HR is 32.

      **************************************
      “I am not one to date people into sports and hunting (I live in a state where this is the culture–football is part of people’s lives here) and I pushed away the normal guys.
      ““Normal” – translation: Uneducated, unintelligent, primitive, good-ole-boys. Oh no, she’s not judgmental at all. She simply doesn’t have the guts to say what she really means.  Maybe she needs to put her education to some use, and do some studying. She might just learn that there are plenty of doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. who also enjoy football and hunting. Not to mention that a lot of those “good-ole-boys” are actually highly educated, some of them even earning great money to down right rich. They simply don’t feel the need to throw it into everyone’s face. A lot of them will even enjoy *gasp* culture. Arts, museums, etc.”–Not in the state I live in (geographically).Known comics make jokes about how terrible the dating scene is here. Your description actually is in line with how most women in my state feel about the dating pool here.
      It is not playing sports, it is football and those who watch it. Football is linked to CTE, and brain injury. My field is to save people from that, not encourage it. I raise money for animals–AKA I do not eat meat–translation–not dating hunters. Why would I date a hunter?
      You are not a nice person. I find you bitter. You should meditate. It might help.

  7. 7
    Bunny

    I also followed Evan’s advice; dated a guy I normally wouldn’t have considered, let it slide when there wasn’t any chemistry, let him pick up the check, waited over a month to have sex, saved all the chatting for my BFFs so as not to overtax him with chatter, stayed in the easy relationship where we never fight.  Now I have a BF, so I should be happy right?
    Wrong!

    There is absolutely no intimacy, physical or emotional.  My relationships with my co-workers are so much more gratifying because at least at work we have something in common.  I have absolutely nothing to say to him, ever, and I wonder what’s the point?  We don’t argue, we also don’t talk.  So great, I have a BF who thinks he’s in the the best (sexless) relationship ever, and I’d really rather be at work.

    But, hey, love and chemistry and commonality aren’t what’s important right?  What’s important is that I dated a guy who I never would have chosen for myself and he seems to want to stick around, even though we have absolutely zero common interests.  Sex? Clearly not necessary; haven’t had it since April.

    The relationship is EASY and I guess that’s all that matters.  I put zero effort in, it’s still there.  I give 110%, it’s still there.  Never better, never worse.

    1. 7.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “There is absolutely no intimacy, physical or emotional. My relationships with my co-workers are so much more gratifying because at least at work we have something in common. I have absolutely nothing to say to him, ever, and I wonder what’s the point? We don’t argue, we also don’t talk. So great, I have a BF who thinks he’s in the the best (sexless) relationship ever, and I’d really rather be at work.”

      This one’s on you, Bunny. Who the hell told you that you should be in a DISSATISFYING relationship with no intimacy just because it was EASY? Not me. I said that if you have a relationship with a man and it’s NOT easy, maybe you should rethink it. I did not say that you should be with someone who doesn’t make you happy. Ever.

    2. 7.2
      ScottH

      Um Bunny dear,,, you did not follow Evan’s advice.  You selected one tidbit out of context and extrapolated it.  Now hop along and break up and find someone who perks your ears up.

      1. 7.2.1
        Bunny

        Dear ScottH:
        Evan says:
        1) Date guys you normally wouldn’t consider.
        2) Don’t waste time on the unenthusiastic  guys you like but date the fellow desperate to date you.
        3) Chemistry isn’t important, commitment is, so don’t dump a dude for lack of chemistry.
        4) Let him pick-up the check.
        5) Wait to have sex.
        6) Relationships should be easy.

        As for dumping the dude, it dosn’t work because he never listens.  And I’ve already tried twice.  The last time I tried to dump him I stood in his kitchen, made sure to get his attention, looked him in the eye, said I never wanted to see him again, that he was not to come over any more, then left.  For the next 4 days I refused to answer any of his phone calls or respond to any of his texts.  On the 5th day he showed up, completly oblivious to the fact that he’d been dumped,  chicken soup in hand, let himself in without knocking, and said he was afraid that I was horribly sick  because I wasn’t responding to his calls or texts.  I informed him that I wasn’t sick, just sick of him, and escorted him to the door.  He showed up a few days later with flowers, completely surprised that I wasn’t ready for our “date” because he sent several text reminders.  He reminded me that I agreed to accompany him for opening night months ago, and not to worry, because we could skip dinner, he would just rummage in my kitchen for something while I got ready.  I went because I had agreed months ago, but reminded him that I dumped him and would accept no further invitations.  A few days later he showed up with pizza, a bottle of wine, and a movie, still oblivious to the fact that he’d been dumped.  It was then that I realized that I will never be able to get rid of this man.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Bunny, briefly:

          2) Don’t waste time on the unenthusiastic guys you like but date the fellow desperate to date you.

          Part 1 is right. But who told you that the man who dates you should be “desperate?” Not me. You want and deserve a man who is enthusiastic, not pathetic.

          3) Chemistry isn’t important, commitment is, so don’t dump a dude for lack of chemistry.

          Go through 1000 blog posts and show me one time where I said chemistry wasn’t important. What I DID say is that people are often blinded by chemistry and stay in bad relationships because of it. I have NEVER suggested that people should go through life without chemistry. In fact, I tell people to aim for a “7” out of 10.

          6) Relationships should be easy.

          Good relationships should be easy, but easy isn’t the ONLY characteristic that matters in a relationship. It’s just an essential one. Like kindness, consistency, communication, commitment and attraction. If you don’t have all of these, your relationship isn’t worth having.

          Finally, your claim that you can’t dump a guy smacks of powerlessness and victimhood. Stop the black and white thinking and willful misinterpretations of my advice and move on with your life. No blame. No excuses. You can do this, but you’ll never get anywhere if you can’t cut this guy off and if you can’t handle the nuance of free and nuanced relationship advice.

        2. Noquay

          may I suggest a large and protective dog? Worked for me with a stalker🙋🏾

        3. Nissa

          Get a restraining order.

        4. Bunny

          Nissa and Noquay:
          I don’t think a big dog would work because he’s very good with dogs and chats everyone and their dog up at the dog park.

          As for the restraining order, also not possible.  I tried getting one during my first attempt at breaking up with him.  I did the same bit where I told him never to come over again, refused to answer his calls or respond to his texts.  He’d come over anyway.  I ended up having to lock my doors even when I was home and keep the lights out to pretend I wasn’t there.  Then he started showing up places where he knew I’d be, like Margarita Night with the girls.  They fawned over him, let him buy all the drinks, and didn’t understand why I didn’t want him there.  He talked about nothing but how great our relationship was.  It made me look like the unreasonable one.

          He even called my parents and said he was “worried” about my “erratic behavior.”  They, of course, adore him because he was determined to teach me “the values of their generation.”

          I had to change my routine, sometimes get a hotel room so I could get a good night’s sleep.  After six weeks of this, hiding from him, avoiding my family and friends who thought we should get back together, I went to the court assistance office and ask if there was a way to get a restraining order.  I was told that buying gifts like wine, chocolate, and flowers, and picking up the tab at restaurants are not actions that warrant a restraining order.

    3. 7.3
      Nissa

      No offense, but you need professional help, literally, to help you document these issues and present them to the police. Keep trying the police until you get the restraining order…it could save your life. This sounds like domestic abuse just waiting to happen.

  8. 8
    Noquay

    Olangapo

    We ought to get your local dating pool and mine together, eh? I think my unicorn was my ex husband, a retired ex Dean and social justice advocate. My marriage broke up because I did controversial environmental research, my life was threatened, my research appointment rescinded and I had to go west for work. My ex hated it here. Ironically, I earned warrior status among my people but that doesn’t compare to being a combat veteran. Folks have told me to put down my dogs, my other critters, give up living on the land and force myself to be urban or suburban. I lived the first 10 years as a malnourished and impoverished ghetto kid, then did time in suburbia til I bailed at 17.

    I have an 80 yo friend, incredibly smart, well learned and travelled who loved me, is hurt that I’m leaving yet wanted me to do all the compromise re lifestyle while he does none. I was willing to spend some time in his golf community, along and within hearing of a major interstate if he’d be willing to spend time in the woods but no dice. Ditto for my best male friend. Compromise must be on both sides. If I give up my farm, it would be for a wooded place elsewhere, perhaps Vermont or S Quebec. I understand that finding true peers may no longer possible, given my years (58) but I can’t be forced into a life I want no part of. I agree in your concern for the OP. This is the honeymoon stage where everyone is on their best behavior. I experienced this when I dated more working class folks. Slowly, my values, my lifestyle, my social circle was no longer acceptable to them and the rship began to circle the drain.

    1. 8.1
      Marika

      Hi Noquay,

      Just my two cents….you say:

      “My marriage broke up because I did controversial environmental research, my life was threatened, my research appointment rescinded and I had to go west for work. My ex hated it here”..

      Channelling Evan’s advice, wouldn’t a complement rather than someone just like you be worth a try? Not someone who you feel no passion for or who you don’t respect or look down on, but, rather than a ‘brainiac’, instead someone easy-going who doesn’t mind following your life and your interests, who is supportive and who you won’t butt heads with? Your ‘unicorn’ didn’t want to stick it out…

      You sound like a strong, independent, intelligent badass – if you had the same in a man, wouldn’t it be likely that you would end up in deal breaker situations like you did with your ex?

      I think that’s the crux of it. Not to go completely against type and against passion and attraction, but to also consider who a good complement is and factor that in too. I’m not there yet, myself, but I can see the wisdom in this.

      1. 8.1.1
        Noquay

        Marika

        Yep, serious badass here. Ex was waaay more easygoing than I but also passionate about many issues.  I was the one that blasted off here and there, took care of the farm while he led s much quieter life. Unicorn didn’t stick though he would’ve forced himself to be in a place he hated; you don’t do that to someone you love. I do have a huge need for intelligent, thoughtful, conversation and little use for what passes for culture these days.

      1. 8.2.1
        Noquay

        Nissa

        i have; over 50 sites (out of shape rednecks), farmers sites (yet more rednecks), eHarmony (overweight dudes from BC ; I’m currently in Colorado), fitness sites, elite singles, planet earth singles (potheads, hippies which I’m not, I’m a retired academic ecologist)

        1. Olongapo

          Bwahahaha!!!  Just change “Guys” to “Gals” and you’ll have mirrored my OLD experience.  Especially with the pot smokers.  When I first started reaching out after my divorce (monk mode for a year) I was horrified at the number of older, chronic, marijuana smokers.  I haven’t smoked reefer since 1978!!!  Wine drinkers too.  Serious, one-whole-bottle-by-themselves-at-one-sitting, wine drinkers.  The first time I thought was a fluke.  By the sixth time you see a pattern.  I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s nothing lonelier than an old, straight edge guy with punk tendencies. A glass or two is fine but getting smashed is a waste of my time.

          So here’s what I do to meet people:  I engage with everyone.  With men, I open with something about them or comment on a shared experience.  With women, a compliment.  OLD is kind’ve of a waste of time and money for me but what really helps. is that I’m social and I simply DGAF about the outcome.  Works every time.

          I also have a really cute Border Collie and a Schipperke.  They’re my “side dogs”.

          In all seriousness, I think you and I are 1) In sparse markets. 2)A hard sell and 3) I can only speak for myself, sorta tired (but still hopeful)

        2. sylvana

          Olongapo,

          I think straight-edge, in general, is a problem. Even when finding friends. You rarely meet anyone who doesn’t at least smoke pot now and then, if not regularly. My favorite is always: “It doesn’t change my behavior”.

          Take it from the sober person. It does.

          Same goes for the drinking. It seems incredibly hard for a lot of people to enjoy just one, maybe two drinks.

          Here in South Florida, cocaine seems to be the drug of choice. Especially for people of the higher classes, highly educated, and successful (upper middle-class to rich).

        3. Nissa

          Fitness Singles?

  9. 9
    Olongapo

    @Norquay…..A golf community? Oh, God….I would rather eat bugs.

    The only places I’ve been honored as a veteran have been in Indian Country and when I was in the Peace Corps. The latest rounds of “Thank you for your service” are taken with grace but are a little too late. Earning Warrior status(I hope that you were given the feather) is quite an honor. Respect to you and for the work you’ve done.

    Here’s my problem: I, and I suspect you, and a number of this forum’s contributors, don’t quite fit in for several reasons. We’re older, tend to be educated, tend to be accomplished, to to be thoughtful and introspective, and are seeking a partner that will make life a little more comfortable, to be a lover, and to be a witness to our lives. Living on a farm or a vineyard is especially isolating because we don’t go to a “job” and free time is a scarce commodity. It requires extra effort, at least for me, to go socialize in town. This forum is one of the few places that reasonable discussion about dating can happen. I also have to give credit for Mr. Katz for allowing this to happen.

    In regards to the OP’s conundrum. My counsel would be to proceed very slowly. Go for it but hold back some. Mutual values IMHO, are really important because once the oxytocin buzz wears off, people drift if there’s not some deep conversion that’s bound them to each other. She may find herself being viewed with some suspicion by his social circle (LE tends to be really conservative) and she may feel stifled by his lack of interest in her life and activities.

    58 ain’t that old.

    1. 9.1
      Noquay

      Yep, worries about how life as a forced single in an uneducated community of 200 will be as opposed to what it was like when married. The nearest towns are 21 miles away, not far compared to here. Was reading stats about dating sites and I’ve managed to be everything I’m not supposed to be; older, Brown but not Asian, an athlete who hates TV, waaaay overedumacated, a serious lifelong learner, voracious reader and writer, 420 unfriendly, serious Liberal, Traditional Native. Convicted felons are probably more datable on line. However, I’ve pretty much decided for the next year energy will be put into the farm, regaining full fitness, then I’ll try some races (bike, running, Nordic skiing, snowshoeing) and other events that may have like minded folk.

      I fully agree the OP should proceed slowly and not get too invested too soon. Compatibility differences and their potential impact take time to manifest.

  10. 10
    Yet Another Guy

    All I know is that men have nothing on women when it comes to being harsh about women.  Women have been harsh about my comments, but their responses pale in comparison to the comments to this blog entry.  The LW is used to having men fall all over themselves for her.  I have seen this dynamic play out in real life.

    1. 10.1
      sylvana

      YAG,

      Give me a few days to come up with something. Can’t have you feeling neglected or left out.

      But do you want to know what the biggest difference is? (Other than the fact that you don’t feel the need to repeat listing your greatness more than once per post.) Most men do not pretend to be nice when they’re being ugly/rude/insulting. They tend to say what’s on their minds. And there’s not much of a comeback for that, short of “you’re being an a**.”

      A lot of women, however, take the roundabout approach. Hiding behind seemingly harmless or even sweet statements. So they catch heat not only for the statement, but their lack of character.

      Basically, you can literally call me a bitch (or anything else) to my face, and I’ll totally respect you for it. But don’t smile in my face, then stab me in the back. That’s one of the biggest reasons I generally do not get along with women.

      As for her being used to having men fall all over themselves for her…. Well, that’s where the true show of character comes into play. Lots of women are in the same position, and remain humble, sweet, and kind about it. Then there are those who end up conceited because of it. Or even let it start defining who they actually are.

      This letter writer definitely does not fall into the first category.

       

       

      1. 10.1.1
        Mrs Happy

        The OP is anxious because, at 42, fewer men are falling for her.  She’s listing positive attributes as a defense.

        1. Cathalei

          She listed the men she dated all the way to 42, not necessarily the men who asked her out at 42. It’s more like she’s offering this as a defense to her poor choices as she admits and probably at having realized them too late as well.

  11. 11
    Marika

    YAG said

    “I am a good father, and I do not agree with you.  I am there for my girls, but the woman that I eventually take into my life will be my primary relationship”

    I think that’s a good idea, YAG, and I would agree. My parents were parents first and a couple second, and it definitely affected their marriage. I’m not faulting or criticising them, to this day they are wonderful parents (but to the detriment of their own relationship). I know other long-married couples who are happy, who prioritised their relationship over their kids (obviously didn’t neglect them though, of course).

    I am surprised to hear you say this, though, as you give no indication at all that you value women, including the women you date, even the tiniest bit (I know, I know, it’s all the women’s fault..). So it’s good to hear that you do and when you finally find that unicorn you will prioritise her. We may even find it reflected in your comments…! 😉

    1. 11.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      You would be surprised.  I have spent my life surrounded by women. I have sisters and daughters, no brothers and no sons.  My life, like yours, is the culmination of my experiences.  I like women, but as friends.  Beyond friendship with women is where things get ugly for me.  I have witnessed the dark side of female behavior.  Not all women are like the women I have known, but it is eye opening to see what women are capable of doing to a man when he wants to think otherwise.  After a man witnesses female infidelity (or is the other man in my case), it becomes something that is very difficult to unsee.   It is very difficult to trust women after that kind of experience, so that part gets walled off and becomes callused.  There are women I see as my friends and woman who are only good for being lovers (I am one of those guys who does not attempt to have sex with his female friends).  For women that I only see as lovers, it is purely about their looks and overall sexiness, nothing else matters.

       

      1. 11.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        For women that I only see as lovers, it is purely about their looks and overall sexiness, nothing else matters.

        I wonder if somewhere in your dark world if people just get together because they dig each other. Reread that for  a second. Take it in. No one is trying to get one up on the other person and manipulate them or keep part of themselves “walled off,” no one’s picking “low hanging fruit” because it’s easier to get laid, no one’s lamenting the fact that the woman he is with is – .00005 less than the regular SMV women he dates. Two people who just like each other and are happy to be together. No manipulation, no bullshit, no looking over their shoulders for something better.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          I wonder if somewhere in your dark world if people just get together because they dig each other.

          I know a lot of people who fit that description.  I am just not one of these people.  I think what led me down the dark passageway was the fact that I tend to grow tired of a woman sexually fairly quickly, so it is better to engage in the act with women who are disposable.  Sex with an otherwise attached woman is a disposable arrangement (it one of, if not the major reason why men date separated women).  My female friends are not disposable.  I do not have sex with them because it would just turn crap when I grew tired of having sex.  I made that mistake once, and it is not something that I am going to repeat.  The problem with getting sexually involved with a friend who desires more than an FWB arrangement is that there is no putting the genie back into the bottle.

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

           My female friends are not disposable.  I do not have sex with them because it would just turn crap when I grew tired of having sex.  

          You know, I understand you a lot better than you think. I’ve had male friends I probably loved, but I have come to understand that I subconsciously picked them as friends in large part because I didn’t want to have sex with. Men were in two categories — those I wanted to have sex with and those I was fond of and liked  but had no burning desire (or desire at all) to seduce. I am baffled by women who can date their male friends. You’ve known this guy for years, I want to say, and he suddenly becomes appeal to you? But I’m aware that there’s a disconnect in the way I view these things.

        3. Mrs Happy

          Dear Emily, the original,

          does it work in reverse?  Most of my close male friends are ex’s.  I do not want to jump them, really.  Not at all.

        4. Shaukat

          “But I’m aware that there’s a disconnect in the way I view these things.”

          Actually Emily, on this topic I’d say your thought process is fairly common among women, and probably represents the norm. The idea that a woman will wake up one day and suddenly have an epiphany that her male best friend of several years is the ‘one’ is the stuff of Hollywood. Plus it makes certain men feel better about their situation. It does happen, but usually in such cases there was always attraction, (or at least never the absence of attraction) and the two were just not available at the same time before. Guys like to tell themselves that they’re in the friend zone because of how they acted, but in reality, if a man finds himself in the ‘zone’ he never had a shot to begin with.

        5. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Guys like to tell themselves that they’re in the friend zone because of how they acted, but in reality, if a man finds himself in the ‘zone’ he never had a shot to begin with.

          Yeah, I agree. A girl puts a guy in the friend zone or she doesn’t by how she feels about him. There’s nothing he can do to change that, despite what the PUA community thinks. I think this is true of both sexes.

        6. Emily, the original

          Mrs. Happy,

          Does it work in reverse?  Most of my close male friends are ex’s.  I do not want to jump them, really.  Not at all.

          No. In terms of the people I’ve been involved with sexually,  we weren’t friends during the relationship so there’d be no reason for us to be friends once things were over. That’s what I meant by a disconnect.

      2. 11.1.2
        Marika

        YAG

        I think most / all of us have been negatively affected by the opposite sex. It’s a shame when it’s all their fault, though, as that removes all personal agency and control.

  12. 12
    Adrian

    I wonder how much of a role does age play into the original letter writer’s situation? Because most women my age and younger who are very beautiful, have sexy bodies, intelligent, and are very accomplished professionally like the letter writer says she is always has a equally hot boyfriend or husband.

    Many have said it’s a quality not a quantity problem but I am not sure. A woman of that caliber would have so many options (yes I know all women have lots of options compared to even handsome men) but from many of the older  male commentors are saying finding an older woman with a great face and body is rare. Her rarity would mean that her options are greater and these options would include very emotional as well as financially and physically prized men.

    That is why I am thinking it’s either because there is something about her that she is not mentioning (a personality flaw) or it’s because perhaps there is truth to the saying that the older you get the more thinned out the quality dating market becomes. Many older commentors say quality men and women don’t stay single for long and that is why the dating market is harder for older dater.

    I however have my doubts about that because there are so many singles in the 40 and up range according to the stats that logically there have to be a lot of quality candidates among them.

    1. 12.1
      Mrs Happy

      Dear Adrian,

      If the attachment theories resonate with you, one big reality is that securely attached, committed and stable people, more often stay partnered, statistically.  Similarly, the good partners, the financially successful, and the beautiful people, get caught and held onto (like a good stock option).  They don’t get thrown back into the sea as easily, because their partners cut them slack for faults and misdemeanors, and if they are thrown back into the sea, they are fished out again pronto.  After a certain age there are still quality partners left in the sea, but it’s an exhausting emotionally effortful and mathematical exercise finding them.

      At 42 she likely can’t easily have kids.  For a few centuries until the 1960’s, men married primarily for access to regular sex, and/or to reproduce.  At 42 she can’t reproduce, and now her dating pool may be largely divorced men who don’t want to remarry but want sex-with-girlfriend set ups.  Also in her sea will be men who have always been wishy-washy about commitment (thus never married), and men with dating disadvantages (substance abuse, big health problems, control issues, personality flaws, really bad in bed, bad breath, poor, 10 children, etc).

      No matter how beautiful she is, she will have fewer options now because of her age, and the age and calibre of the available men left in the sea, dating her (many of whom will be unacceptable, unattractive options for her).  The good ones get zapped up.

      I’ll tell you a story even though it paints me in a narcissistic light.  When I was 29 I was entering my 1st marriage, and as part of the religious preparations had to endure a religious weekend of talks-on-marriage by church officials/volunteers.  (Lifelong atheist, but future in-law’s family v religious.)  At the weekend I felt something was off but I couldn’t work out what (off aside from the usual delusional God claptrap, that is).  By Day 2 I realised that every other bride-to-be there was either as pretty, or prettier, than me – not something I was used to.  I was shocked to realise, ahh, that’s who gets fished out of the sea quickly (they were youngish, early 20’s and up) and preferentially gets snapped up into marriage – the more attractive, physically and personality wise ladies, just the complete-attractive-good-nice-person, whole package.

      Most of the whole-package-good-or-great people I know are married and stay married, but mine is a biased cohort because I’m married.  The only people who I am friendly with who aren’t married or coupled (and they are great people) are: obese, long-term unemployed, of a minority race, or short (man).

      1. 12.1.1
        Jeremy

        I don’t know.  IME, the people who married soonest were those who valued marriage, who always knew that marriage and children were their goals.  The guardian personalities – the women whose personalities were such that they longed to adopt a certain role, to let that role become their persona.  Were they the most attractive total package?  Not necessarily IME.  The first girl in my high school class to marry was the most obese.  She just really, really wanted to get married.

         

        There’s an interesting quirk in my profession – I know of absolutely zero heterosexual males in my profession who are unmarried, but I know quite a few female colleagues who are single.  Either never married or divorced and not snapped back up again.  These women are often attractive (in some cases, model attractive), intelligent, and successful.  But they tend to have one thing in common….they have this idea that they are totally awesome.  It goes beyond confidence (a bit of which is healthy) and into narcissism.  It’s the “I’m the best and so I deserve the best” attitude, or sometimes the “I’m the best but I’ll try dating this guy even though he’s not in my league” attitude.  IME it’s the attitude that’s the important factor, the attitude is what needs to be addressed before partnering up.  The women I know who married when they wanted did not have this attitude – they all felt that their husbands (and not just their marriages) gave them something they wanted, that they lacked.  More than secure attachments style, more than beauty, more than success or intelligence, attitude was the factor in my circle.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          It goes beyond confidence (a bit of which is healthy) and into narcissism.  It’s the “I’m the best and so I deserve the best” attitude, or sometimes the “I’m the best but I’ll try dating this guy even though he’s not in my league” attitude. 

          In my opinion, if a woman wants to be married, she’ll be married. If marriage is a goal, she’ll meet that goal, just as the women you mentioned met their career goals. In my opinion, these women don’t really want to be married. Not badly enough. They’ve either stopped looking or won’t pick from what’s out there.

        2. Mrs Happy

          Dear Jeremy,

          Attitude (I’d encapsulate that in personality) is important.  In fact I myself prioritise the personality of a partner as more important than looks, and only began commonly thinking a different way when YAG and others on here illustrated their priorities for any interest at all start with “do I want to bed her (looks)”.

          I still stand by my reasoning that the value of the whole package to the opposite sex, predicts ability to be married.  Otherwise why is my lovely, kind, socially perfect, but enormously obese friend, unmarried when she’d like to be partnered?  Why is my male friend who yearns for a wife, kids, family, and is thoughtful, nice, tall, curious, but long-term unemployed, single?

          Attitude is the factor in your circle because each person already has the basics.  The women if married are guardians and supportive kind mothers, if unmarried are smart, pretty, interesting, altruistic health professionals.  Of course if those latter group of women aren’t married it’s going to be because of a personality quirk or entitled attitude or something.

          At #6 above, sylvana infers an entitled attitude from the OP, and it grates.  If other men this OP dated picked up on that and didn’t like it, it’s going to be a very negative part of her package.

          But Jeremy surely you with all your study into personality types have observed that narcissistic people not infrequently pair up with narcissists, people they believe of high value and know their worth – so this trait isn’t always going to be a negative in coupledom.

          When you observe patterns of male versus female marriage in your work, are  you referring to your overall profession, or just your particular area of expertise?  Because one curiosity I’ve always had is, why are male doctors considered such a catch for so many women?   Is it just the (income + presumed altruism)?

        3. Marika

          I agree Jeremy and almost wrote something similar last night. I’ve personally seen no correlation between good looks and marrying quickly/young. I do see a correlation between personality/attitude and marrying young, or as you say, when you want to. Being attractive can work against you as it feels like there are endless options; why choose one.

          People I know who partnered up in their 20s and have stayed married chose men who also had that committment philosophy, they were secure (or appeared relatively secure), didn’t stick around in relationships not leading to marriage and either made it clear that’s what they wanted to everyone, or the opposite – were not at all desperate but had that ‘if it happens it happens, but I’m not going to kill myself making it happen’ attitude, which is probably quite attractive.

          I do know some people like you mention, Jeremy, who think they are God’s gift and no one is good enough. Most unpartnered or not repartnerned people, though, I don’t think fall in this category – or the ‘too old’ category. Other things are going on.

        4. Jeremy

          While I’ve observed that some narcissists marry other narcissists, I’ve more often observed that narcissists marry people who are deeply anxious.  Who crave the security that they feel their confident (ie. narcissistic) partner can provide.  I’ve written before that confidence is a lousy heuristic because it doesn’t mean what people think it means.

           

          When I wrote about my profession, I was referring specifically to my specialty.  But if we’re speaking about “doctors” in general, I think that many women find male doctors attractive is a combination of the fact that 1) they have high status, 2) they have predictable material success, 3) they tend to be confident, 4) women are expected to find them attractive and so those who adopt external roles internalize the expectation.  But while many men are repulsed by narcissistic women from the get-go (unless they are very hot), women are often attracted to narcissistic men until years into the relationship, when they realize what the men’s “confidence” actually signified about them.  SHOULD women find male doctors to be so desirable?  Absolutely not, unless those male doctors value their relationships more than their prestige, or their mission in the world.

        5. Mrs Happy

          Can’t blame me for trying.

      2. 12.1.2
        Adrian

        Hi Mrs. Happy, Jeremy, and Marika

        I agree with Mrs Happy completely. I encounter women from most racial, ethnic, and class backgrounds when I’m downtown or on the college campus and I can assure you that it’s rare to see a really beautiful single woman who is not single by choice. Guys are quick to try to capture-for a lack of a better word-a beautiful or sexy woman.

        Now I do agree with Jeremy and Marika when they say that people who want to be married are married but this post (and my comment) is about how a practically perfect package (on the outside) could still be single or struggle in dating.

        My guess is that the letter writer is the reason she is single like Mrs. Happy said if others see it here I am sure these men saw it as well.  A healthy emotional person will not stay long with a unhealthy emotional person regardless of how she looks.

        Marika said, “I’ve personally seen no correlation between good looks and marrying quickly/young.

        Eh… Yes and no. I agree that there is no specific correlation with marriage but when it comes to dating (getting dates) yes.

        I wonder are we just at a point on this blog (thanks to some mean commentors as well as some other theories I hav1e but won’t speak out loud) that any acknowledgment of attractiveness over character and intellect is looked down on harshly. We pretend that it doesn’t exist or that everyone only picks/accepts a date because of character and personality. No one but YAG and myself reject dates because of a lack of physical attraction?

        The thing I disagree with YAG, Tron, and Obsidian on is that they bring it up ALL the time! Yes we get it looks matter, but I also don’t think completely swinging the other way and denying that looks are very important at first is the right step either.

        Jeremy said, “These women are often attractive (in some cases, model attractive), intelligent, and successful.  But they tend to have one thing in common….they have this idea that they are totally awesome… It’s the “I’m the best and so I deserve the best” attitude, or sometimes the “I’m the best but I’ll try dating this guy even though he’s not in my league” attitude.

        Read Evan’s reply to me above; apparently this is more common than people want to acknowledge.

        I think the disconnect some people are having about this is choice. Most women regardless of where they fall on the looks scale will have guys ask them out all the time but most of those guys they don’t want yet beautiful women have that “plus” guys they do want that are asking them out. Which is why Evan is saying that for his target audience it’s their own unrealistic expectations and beliefs that are holding them back because they have the hot desirable guys pursuing them. As he told Tron the advice to hot women will be “slightly” different in some areas than the advice to the average woman.

        Mrs Happy asked, “Because one curiosity I’ve always had is, why are male doctors considered such a catch for so many women?   Is it just the (income + presumed altruism)?

        It’s status. Money sometimes but the status is more important plus it fits the fantasy of the ideal relationship. Do you have soap operas in Australia? Are romance novels as popular over there as they are here?

        The common theme in both of those markets that are targeted at women is the fantasy of the male character, looks, wealth, blah blah blah, but also his title. He can’t just be rich he has to be a rich surgeon or a CEO.

        I took a sociology class a for fun a few semesters ago when I decided to go back for my Master’s degree and in it I learned that wealth and status/class are separate though most people think they are the same. Telling a person you own your own construction company and making $1,000,000 a year carries less weight than saying you are family practice DOCTOR and make $190, 000 a year.

         

        1. Mrs Happy

          Doctors work brutal hours, including shiftwork, have to do ongoing study and keep up to date, or do research, or attend meetings and conferences, and all these take away from his availability for family time; in personality they are often extremely confident, entitled, or narcissistic (take your pick); he will be busy tending to patients and not have a lot left to tend to family… I just don’t see the huge attraction when you drill down to what the reality will be as life as a busy doctor’s wife.  One of my friends grew up as the daughter of a doctor in a rural Australian town, her family never went on holiday, because her father couldn’t find a locum and didn’t feel comfortable leaving the town without medical cover; in this respect quite a crappy childhood for her.

          Adrian dear, this blog is my soap opera fix.  None better.

        2. Mrs Happy

          Importantly I want to add that my above comment in no way targets the doctors who write here, GWTF, S, J, etc.  I merely mean, if you get 100 successful doctors or investment bankers or CEOs in a room, and 100 random other men in a second room, the first room will likely statistically have more entitled men in it (who are generally going to be more emotionally difficult to be married to, not to mention absent from family life).

        3. Jeremy

          Depends what kind of doctor, Mrs Happy.  Believe it or not, some of us chose certain specialites specifically because they don’t resemble your description at all.  But insofar as it goes, your description does indeed describe most types of doctors.  Incidentally, above you wrote, “Can’t blame me for trying.”  I didn’t get the reference.

    2. 12.2
      Emily, the original

      Adrian and Mrs. Happy,

      If the attachment theories resonate with you, one big reality is that securely attached, committed and stable people, more often stay partnered, statistically.  Similarly, the good partners, the financially successful, and the beautiful people, get caught and held onto (like a good stock option).  

      I’ve read this, too, but I don’t think you have to be beautiful. Secure people like to be in relationships and do well being partnered up. If the relationship they are in breaks up, they attract another secure person and pair up, whereas avoidants have trouble with intimacy and attract anxious types, and this is a horrible combination.

      1. 12.2.1
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Can you believe it?!! Finally a post where men are free to talk about looks without being bashed and Tom10 is missing it!!!

        I completely agree with you about attachment styles but I think the difference here is that a practically perfect (on the outside) package like the letter writer will have more men that she equally likes approaching her faster than an average looking women. As you’ve said average and even below average looking women will always have guys approaching them but a large percentage of those men she will not be attracted to and her wait for guy she is attracted to approaching her will be longer.

        My question for you is what did you think about what Mrs Happy said about dating when older? You have been the only women that is a regular to speak about it being harder to find someone when you are older. If you don’t agree with her then what are your thought on why it is harder for older women?… By the way Evan also stated that in a post from years ago when he first started; I wonder has his views on the struggles of older women dating changed?

        1. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          You have been the only women that is a regular to speak about it being harder to find someone when you are older. If you don’t agree with her then what are your thought on why it is harder for older women?… 

          It’s for the exact reason Mrs. Happy mentioned … the first draft picks are gone by the time you get older. Not just in terms of appearance but emotional health, those who want to be married, etc. Those who are left in the dating pool have issues. (Yes, I’m very well aware I am in that category.) I’m not including people who were married and got divorced. But secure types who do divorce usually get snatched up pretty quickly and remarry.

  13. 13
    Marika

    Adrian

    Re dating when ‘older’ (42 is old now??)…the thing is, Mrs Happy has been married for (10?) years and Emily tells us she doesn’t actively date. The macho/ red pill guys tell us all the time about the struggles of dating over 30 blah blah. The last thing we need are women (especially who aren’t dating) chiming in on this negative party too!

    I see plenty of men online in their mid 40s and above. Plenty. Yes, some of them are chasing younger women, but who do you think a relationship oriented 46 year old, likely with a kid or two is after? Yes, women in their early-mid 40s. If she doesn’t have kids by then – even better as they aren’t juggling the needs of two sets of kids.

    As long as you don’t expect to get chased by 30 year olds, you are open to dating a range of men, you understand much older men will try it on,  you understand your own attachment type..etc…I don’t think dating in your 40s is the doom and gloom it’s being made out to be. A secure person likely has done less self analysis. Avoidant types probably work well with really busy people who like their own space. And so on…

    And we all have ‘issues’…even secure people. With every type comes strengths and weaknesses. Eg anxious people are always looking to improve and do better.

    1. 13.1
      Tron Swanson

      Marika,

      What percentage of men in that age-range are still “relationship oriented,” do you think?

      Also, having spent many years in the Red Pill community, I have to say: they tend to overestimate how tough it for over-thirty women to get relationships. Most men are desperate for sex, and any remotely-attractive woman over thirty shouldn’t have a problem. There’s an element of wishful thinking/desire for justice there, and this kind of claim tends to come from those who think that things can be changed back, somehow. “Women won’t be able to find men, and they’ll have to admit we were right all along!” No, women will enjoy unending lines of men to choose from, and they won’t have to learn or change anything. Just speaking for myself, I’m not avoiding women to bring about social change, I’m doing it for my own well-being. However…just because over-thirty women can find relationships doesn’t mean that they’ll be with good boyfriend/husband candidates. I have seen the men that my former FWBs settled for, and while I’m no great catch myself, I’m better than almost all of them. I mean, yikes.

      1. 13.1.1
        sylvana

        Tron,

        Just because she can find relationships doesn’t mean that they’ll be with good boyfriend/husband candidates.  

        the same could be said for women of any age, really. Even women in their twenties. And even if she does choose well, it doesn’t guarantee that the two of them will actually be a good match. Or that one of them won’t end up cheating years down the road.

        There’s a reason relatively few people are actually in happy, long-term relationships or marriages.

        1. Tron Swanson

          Sylvana,

          Very true. This is one area where men have a distinct advantage: we have lower non-physical expectations, and are generally lower-maintenance. As long as a woman is hot and non-annoying, most of us couldn’t care less about her personality, career, interests or lack thereof, etc.

    2. 13.2
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      I see plenty of men online in their mid 40s and above. Plenty. Yes, some of them are chasing younger women, but who do you think a relationship oriented 46 year old, likely with a kid or two is after? Yes, women in their early-mid 40s. If she doesn’t have kids by then – even better as they aren’t juggling the needs of two sets of kids.

      I don’t do online dating, but before I moved, I was much more social and involved in several meet up groups. I think I can count on both hands the number of single men I met who were my age. And of those, there were only a few instances of mutual interest. One of these guys I met in a biker bar! He was cute but it was not going to be long-term.

      But I think Jeremy is right in saying that people who have the relationship goal of getting married are married. I mentioned three guys from my former place of employment who asked me out. I don’t know what happened to one of them, but the other two were married within a couple years of asking me out. They wanted to get married. One of them ending up marrying one of the only other single women we worked with. Whereas I had no interest in those guys, thinking they were too obvious. No game. But those are the guys I should have dated if I had been serious about getting married.

      1. 13.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I don’t do online dating, but before I moved, I was much more social and involved in several meet up groups. I think I can count on both hands the number of single men I met who were my age.

        The ratio of women to men at Meetup group events is usually ridiculous. I joined a couple of Meetup groups as a way to socialize in mixed company without having to go on a date.  I wanted to keep my Meetup groups separate from my dating life.  I saw Meetup groups as a way to make new friends with whom to socialize and have fun in a platonic context.  The problem is that a lot of women consider Meetup groups to be alternatives to online dating sites.  It has the effect of driving men who were just looking to socialize in a dating-free environment away.   It is such a big problem in my area that a lot groups specifically state that they are friendship groups, not dating sites.

        With that said, I get it.  The women who use Meetup groups this way are usually the type of woman who considers dating sites to be extremely alien due to her need to know a guy in a non-dating context first, which is something that online dating rarely affords a woman.   They want the traditional, more organic way of getting to know a guy before deciding to date him.  Guys generally do not operate that way.  If a guy with options wants to be more than friends with a woman, he does so from the outset; otherwise, the probability of her being placed in the friend zone forever is high.   Only men who lack the confidence to make the first move take the backdoor friends first approach, which is pretty weasel-like in my humble opinion.  However, women tend to be allergic to this type of man, so he usually ends up in the friend zone.

        1. Mrs Happy

          Dear YAG,

          I absolutely agree  with your weasel conclusion, and as a man I suspect you cannot know how irritating and widespread the weasel behaviour is.  Weasel acts were the bane of my life from university years through to meeting my current husband (military men excluded, who were just so manly).  I do try to understand nervousness some males have, but good grief, things can drag on too long, so that any spark which might have been there, dies in a black hole of inaction.

          Something clicked in my brain when the now Mr Happy got to my house early on in the piece of us being interested in one another, looked at me, and said “to make one thing very clear” then moved over to kiss me.  At last! reacted the primitive parts of my brain – a decisive, take charge man who isn’t going to be friends for 10 fricking years before declaring his love/lust.

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          The problem is that a lot of women consider Meetup groups to be alternatives to online dating sites.

          This has not been my experience at all. The women I meet at Meetup were looking to make friends, as I was. The few men who were there were on the prowl, and it was obvious and very awkward.

          I also met men through friends, at work, out and about.  They weren’t all at meetups.

          If a guy with options 

          Let’s have a moratorium on “guy with options” for the next 7 days, shall we?

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Okay, how about guys who can get dates? 🙂 It does not matter what I write. You are going to find something to parse out.

          Your problem is that you are forty-something and you still believe in the Disney princess fairy tale. That is why you are single and will remain so until you start dating like an adult. Adults make conscious decisions. If your conscious decision is to not date men who do not give you the tingles, then you are going to continue to live your life alone. At best, you will have short-term, high-intensity flings because the probability of finding a compatible man who gives you the tingles is already minuscule enough. Factor in the reality that he has to want you, and the probably goes to near zero at your age because you are dealing with a dating pool in which most of the high arousal men have been married and have little incentive to make another long-term commitment. If you are happy being alone, hang onto the fairy tale; otherwise, I can assure you that conscious dating is in your future. It is just a matter of time. It is called adult dating.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Actually, shortly after my divorce, I joined meet-up to make new WOMEN friends.  Most of the friends in my life at that point, were the wives of our shared “married couple set”, so although my married girlfriends didn’t shun me, I still felt a bit like a fish out of water, and wanted to find a circle of single female friends.  I intentionally chose female centric/mostly feminine interest groups; art meet ups, specifically female groups etc.  But despite my joining meet-up to meet WOMEN, I unwittingly ended up back in the dating game, when a very handsome gentlemen from one of my art groups sent me a private message expressing a desire to meet me.  I didn’t even see the message for weeks (the messaging system on Meetup.com was very hit or miss) and then I hesitated for quite a while responding, thinking he might be a catfisher.  Eventually we agreed to meet at wine tasting meet-up.  We were immediately attracted to each other, and he became my “rebound boyfriend”.  Unfortunately, although I found him very attractive, we turned out to be quite incompatible.  He was foreign and I think there were some cultural differences, and also, he was a bit full of himself, which I found to be off putting.  I broke it off, and he stalked me in cyber space and on meet-up for about a year.  Blew up my phone and e-mail with messages asking for another chance, showing up “co-incidently” at the meet ups I attended, and once I rec’d a rather strange note on my car (unsigned) after a meet-up.  Not sure that it was him, but I suspect it was.

          *************************************************************

          Anyway, even though he and I ended up not working out (not surprised, rebounds rarely do),  those early excited feelings I initially had, woke up my heart, and I couldn’t go back to my previous vow to remain “man-free” in the aftermath of a very painful divorce.

          *************************************************************

          I continued to use meetup.com to try and meet women friends, and I did make a few friendship with very nice women and are still friends to this day.  I did end up dating a few good men from meet up, but they never quite clicked into a relationship.  Now that my feelings of longing for a relationship had been ignited by my brief un-intended rebound relationship, I went on match.com and met my husband, and I couldn’t ask for a better partner to share my life with !  Even though things didn’t work out with my rebounder, I am happy that he approached me, because he made me remember how fun it could be to be back in a relationship, something I gave up on, after my ex shredded my heart to pieces.

          *************************************************************

          Maybe it’s a regional thing, maybe it’s an age thing (I’m in my 60’s, was in my late 50’s when divorced), but my experience on meet up was that the women in my age group were just looking for female friends, or just a group to participate in activities with, and the few men in these groups were looking to date.

          ************************************************************

          I think meet up is good way to meet friends AND potential relationship partners.  You can take a look at someone’s meet up profile and picture (if they post one), show up at a meet up they are attending, and have a nice non-commital way to meet them.  If the spark isn’t there in person, no awkward “We are not a match” convo need take place.  If there seems to be a mutual spark, then both parties can take it organically from there.

          *************************************************************

           

          Hope this post is readable.  My paragraph spacing doesn’t work, so I am trying to separate some of the with astericks.

        5. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I can assure you that conscious dating is in your future. It is just a matter of time. It is called adult dating.

          I have enough of being an “adult” by having to go work everyday, but I’ve had this exact discussion with Jeremy on different posts. Sooner rather than later, I’ll not be looking for  the “hottest sex of a lifetime” man  but a “will you sign my health care proxy?” sick buddy. I’ve got one high-intensity situation left in me — hell, maybe 2 or 3 — and then I’ll take my nails out of the wall and fall back to the ground.

          And btw, EVERYBODY has options.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @SparklingEmerald

          sent me a private message

          That has been my exact experience.  The only difference is that women tend to use indirection.  I would attend a Meetup group event and find a message the next day stating something like “What are you seeking?”  When I would write back that I am looking to make new friends, the conversation would go dead.

           

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Sooner rather than later, I’ll not be looking for  the “hottest sex of a lifetime” man  but a “will you sign my health care proxy?” sick buddy.

          You do know that there are many shades of gray in between these two extremes?  I must have dated close to 500 hundred women in my lifetime.  I have dated over 100 women in the last couple of years.  I can count the number of women on one hand who made me feel the way that you need to feel to date.  My threshold for who is dateable is definitely much lower than yours.  I willing to bet that 99.9999% of the men on this planet have lower thresholds for who they will date and even lower thresholds for who they will bed.

           

        8. Emily, the original

          YAG,
          “I can count the number of women on one hand who made me feel the way that you need to feel to date.”
          All I wrote was that I want to be excited about going out with somebody. To really be looking forward to it instead of thinking, Well, I guess” when he asks.

        9. Emily, the original

          YAG,
          ” I would attend a Meetup group event and find a message the next day stating something like “What are you seeking?” ”
          That’s no worse than a guy I met a meetup who sent a message to me complete with poetry … and sent the same message to another woman in the group. Did it never occur to him that we were friends and would talk? It was like a bad Saturday Night Live skit.

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          All I wrote was that I want to be excited about going out with somebody. To really be looking forward to it instead of thinking, Well, I guess” when he asks.

          Do you honestly believe that the guys in whom you were interested who eventually asked you out felt the same way about you that you did about them? Yes, guys do the asking, but it is little more than taking advantage of an opportunity to get laid.  It is easier to get into a woman’s pants when she is the one who initiates interest than it is when a man a has to convince a woman to go out with him, even if it does not take much in the way of convincing. However, men are socialized differently than women. We are not looking for butterflies or moonbeams when we ask a woman out.  We are happy if she gives us sex without being a drama queen, pain in the backside.

          Speaking of not being a drama queen, pain in the backside.  There have been women in my past who initiated interest for whom I was originally just not feeling it.  However, they turned out to be so much fun to be around that I did look forward to spending time together.  Did I ever experience deep desire for these women?  No, but they filled the fun part of the male fun/sex axis so well that okay sex was good enough.  However, I am a guy, and there was no such thing as bad sex at that point in my life.

        11. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Do you honestly believe that the guys in whom you were interested who eventually asked you out felt the same way about you that you did about them? Yes, guys do the asking, but it is little more than taking advantage of an opportunity to get laid.  

          Don’t interact with me anymore. You’re posts are so negative. I don’t know why you are here other than to troll women, and i don’t want to get mixed up in that energy.

      2. 13.2.2
        Marika

        Emily

        These men weren’t in their 20s and hot, right? I agree that having a goal of getting married is a good predictor of whether you’ll get married. I disagree that getting (successfully, happily) married is all about being young and hot.

        If it was, Evan’s only advice would be – be young and hot. Not really that helpful…

        Being young & hot helps you get dates and hook ups and kisses in bars. It doesn’t make you ready for marriage, it definitely doesn’t make you choose the best/right guys.

        There were men you met a few years ago looking to date and get married, and they did. Because that’s what they wanted.

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Your problem is that you look down on conscious dating. Finding someone to marry is a conscious decision that often requires one to make trade-offs, often significant in size.

          I don’t look down on it. I don’t understand it, but I agree about conscious dating if you want to marry. At some point you have to pick someone and make a decision.

        2. Emily, the original

          Mariak,

          These men weren’t in their 20s and hot, right? I agree that having a goal of getting married is a good predictor of whether you’ll get married. I disagree that getting (successfully, happily) married is all about being young and hot.

          These men were neither young nor hot, but I’m not saying you have to be young and hot to get married. If that’s what seemed to be implied in my post, I didn’t word it well.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          I think that having a goal of getting married greatly increases your chances, but I don’t think not being married is a indication that the person was insincere in their desire to get married, or was just horribly flawed or horribly unattractive.  Being “young and hot” isn’t a guarantee either, but it sure does increase your chances.

          *******************************

          I have 3, never married women friends.  2 very much wanted marriage and children, and the other, definitely did NOT want that in her younger days, and I am not sure how she feels now.  The 2 women who wanted marriage very much, were a little bit on the “plain Jane” side, but had hearts of gold, and I think would have made a good partner.  Both of them came very close to getting married; had long term relationships, with talk of getting married, one even officially engaged, but then ultimately did not pan out.  I almost consider these women in the same boat as divorced women, since they came so close to their desired goal.  One friend who had her serious boyfriend of 2 years, talked about marriage but never officially got engaged, he cheated on her and DEVASTATED her.  I don’t think she was ever the same after that.  She had a string of BAD short term relationships after that, and gave up on finding a hubby, and consciously made the decision to become a single mom.  My other friend, broke off her engagement, and I am on the fence if she should have done that, it seemed to me she should have tried to work out the issue (his meddling mother who he had trouble standing up t0) instead of throwing in the towel, but ultimately it was her choice.  She is well past child bearing years now, and I think it has been a  dissappointment to have never married and had children.  Ever since that broken engagement, I have seen her waste way to much time on guys who “just weren’t that into her”.  I don’t doubt her sincerity to have wanted marriage, in fact, I think her strong desire is what caused her to chase after men who were “not that into her” and to settle for half-assed non-relationships.  I think my other friend just gave up, after coming so close to marrying a man she deeply loved, and then getting hurt.

          ***********************************************************

          I also have a friend who vehemently did NOT want to get married and especially did NOT want kids.  Seriously, she did not have a maternal bone in her body, and I think her vehement anti-children stance, fueled her anti-marriage stance.  But guess what, she had 2 very long term relationships, with both of those guys pressuring HER to get married.  The first one she broke off, since she didn’t want to marry.  The second guy she finally married after the world’s longest engagement in history.  I think he wanted a family some day, but decided to let go of that, since he really loved her and wanted to be with her.  I think she would have been happy to “go steady” for ever.  So even though she had a goal of NOT getting married, she ended up doing that anyway.  Of course, it helps that she was definitely a natural beauty and a man magnet.

          ***********************************************************

           

      3. 13.2.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        Your problem is that you look down on conscious dating. Finding someone to marry is a conscious decision that often requires one to make trade-offs, often significant in size.

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Your problem is that you look down on conscious dating. Finding someone to marry is a conscious decision that often requires one to make trade-offs, often significant in size.

          I don’t look down on it. I don’t understand it, but I agree about conscious dating if you want to marry. At some point you have to pick someone and make a decision.

      4. 13.2.4
        Marika

        Emily

        No, you’re right. You didn’t actually say anything about marriage and being young & hot. Good point, sorry.

        I guess I’m just pushing back on the general idea. I think it’s both untrue and unhelpful. Even just on this blog, Sparkling Emerald, Maya, Karl R’s wife, Karl R’s friends, Karmic Equation etc etc. are all actively dating and/or in relationships/marriages over 40 – some over 50 and 60. And happy. And not having to beg guys their age to give them a chance.

        It’s about attitude, skills and confidence, IMO.

        Of course being attractive is a big asset, but personally, if I’d married some clown I kissed in a club at 22…one or both of us would probably be in gaol by now (okay, I still married badly a bit later on..but that aside ;)..!

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,
          “Even just on this blog, Sparkling Emerald, Maya, Karl R’s wife, Karl R’s friends, Karmic Equation etc etc. are all actively dating and/or in relationships/marriages over 40 – some over 50 and 60. And happy. And not having to beg guys their age to give them a chance.”
          I think you can find love at any age, but I was responding to OP dating for the last 12 years. Now, if she wants to be dating for that long, then there’s no problem. But if not, something is off. Why has it taken her so long to find someone? My point was that secure people attract other secure people and pair up, thus not staying on the market very long, and as we get older, there are fewer secure people left. I wasn’t talking referring to someone’s appearance or age. I think appearance has a lot less to do with it than some of the comments on this blog would lead you to believe. Just walk around your local mall. There are plenty of people paired up, and none are supermodels.

      5. 13.2.5
        Shaukat

        ‘Let’s have a moratorium on “guy with options” for the next 7 days, shall we?’

        Lol, Emily your dialogue with YAG is always entertaining:) Two completely different dating philosophies and experiences clashing. Either that or he’s just really good at trolling you.

        1. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Either that or he’s just really good at trolling you.

          I also say to myself I’m not going to respond but I somehow always do. Sometimes it’s just too much fun.  🙂

    3. 13.3
      Adrian

      Hi Marika,

      It took me a while to respond because honestly what you said had me thinking very deeply about somethings. When you spoke about how dating is for older women I wondered where did I get that idea and I realized that it is from reading the many negative comments on this blog.

      In my everyday offline life I don’t see any of the things that we “ALWAYS” speak of on this blog. I don’t see women using men, I don’t see men using women, I don’t see age, weight, or children causing women to be perpetually single. I have lately been taking many short breaks from the blog to avoid the “blog jadedness” which is why I sometimes disappear for a week or two but now I see that even when I am not actively participating in the conversations I am still being affected by them.

      I’ll have to think of something to counter this; on a similar note I was listening to an interview of your first female PM and how she said she didn’t think there would be so much backlash in Australia over having a woman leading the country (her words not mine).

      I don’t know if it’s true or not but the correlation that I have drawn is this: Many of us have sexist, racist, ageist, or elitist ideas without even realizing it because we are constantly subconsciously absorb such ideas from the things we relentlessly setting before us. Which is worst, to be an ageist/sexist or to be an ageist/sexist without even knowing you are?

       

      1. 13.3.1
        Marika

        Hi Adrian

        Blog jadedness is real my friend!! Beware…!! 🙂

        Emily sweetly said something about my posts being positive. I just think I’m balancing out the negativity and doom and gloom and all or nothing/ black and white thinking of you have to do x, say y, be z to find love. And it’s all over for you if you’re over a certain age or under a certain height or don’t make enough money. Or all men blah, all women blah blah.

        Evan’s advice is very useful. In terms of, the people I know in happy marriages are relatively easygoing (or at least one of the couple are), truly like each other and have a comfortable feeling around them when together with minimal/no drama.

        They aren’t remarkable in terms of appearance or education or charm. Where I can see they differ from me is they are more secure, and have less of a propensity to overthink or novelty seek.

        I feel like, and maybe you’re the same, if I could get out of my own way and chill out more, things would go much smoother. Probably avoiding the comments section is a good idea too! ;).. Although, I do get a lot out of commenters who think differently to me without being extreme. Good examples would be Karl R (where is he??), Jeremy and Karmic Equation. Also, reading success stories like the last few (eg Maya) and Sparkling – always make me smile 🙂

      2. 13.3.2
        Marika

        Aren’t you sweet for following Aussie politics, Adrian. Did your trip here make you think about joining our tribe?..

        I don’t recall a significant backlash myself, but she is on my side of politics, so maybe I was just happy to have a more left wing government (not long before her we’d had yearssss of right wing-ness). I do know that people commented on her outfits, big arse, hair colour and voice in a way that rarely happens with men (or happens less). I’ve never given any thought to the outfits of our male leaders, other than one who used to get around in Speedoes.

        But, overall, Australian politics has been a joke for the last around 10 years regardless. Back stabbing, changing leaders like we change underwear… so many jokes on FB atm, like Oh Australia has a new PM, it must be time to change the smoke detector. And, if you want to understand Aussie politics, don’t watch West Wing, watch Mean Girls! No doubt it was hard for Julia being the first female PM, and she rose to power in not a great way (more backstabbing), but overall it was an important milestone and I’m glad we finally got there.

        Hopefully one day you will do.. 😉 (couldn’t resist – sorry, not sorry, Shaukat! hehe..)

        I recall a radio segment once called Everybody’s a little bit racist. People called up to admit to their racist-ness. Nothing extreme. It was more things like “I cringe at the x accent” or “I try not to think x race can’t drive, but then whenever I see someone driving badly, it seems to be that race”. I think it’s far better to admit we all have our own biases, but to be open to other perspectives and to recognise there’s a different between beliefs and facts. And definitely not to act viciously on our biases (wherever possible). Sure, people can have preferences for dating younger, but where I think it’s an issue is when that turns into “all women over 40 are gross” or “all men under 6 foot are undateable”.

        1. shaukat

          Hopefully one day you will do.. 😉 (couldn’t resist – sorry, not sorry, Shaukat! hehe..)

          Um, no offense taken at this apparent jab Marika, but I honestly don’t get the reference, lol! Was that supposed to be a sarcastic blow based on our free speech disagreements? Please elaborate:)

  14. 14
    Maya

    I found myself nodding my head along with the OP – I spent a lot of time frustrated, didn’t have a productive attitude toward dating, didn’t date a variety of men, went on guy-atuses that lasted for years, and took rejection in dating wayyyyyy too seriously. I had everything together – pretty, fit, educated, GSOH, financially secure, adventurous, etc – but I couldn’t manage even a short-term relationship to save my life. If you’re not following Evan’s advice now, FOLLOW IT. I started taking dating seriously, applied Evan’s communication principles, didn’t take rejection seriously, dated a variety of men, and tried to have fun and learn as much as I can. After some ups and downs I did find the love I’ve been looking for my entire life, and we are getting married next year. And I’m 42, never been married. Thank you Evan!

    1. 14.1
      Marika

      Congratulations Maya!

      The rejection one is huge. If we aren’t ready to deal with rejection in our stride, we aren’t ready for dating 😁

    2. 14.2
      Marika

      Maya

      Can I ask, did you date ‘against your type’ to find your fiancée, or was there something about him which stood out?

      1. 14.2.1
        Maya

        G’day Marika! My takeaways from dating post-EMK are several: 1) I wish I dated against type MORE. The extent that I did was to be open to men with children (I do not want to have children of my own) and without a graduate degree. I wish I had cast my net wider as I would have had more dates, learned more and probably had a lot more fun meeting men with different backgrounds to my own!

        2) Just like Evan told us about meeting his wife, I wouldn’t have met my partner online if my parameters had stayed too narrow. I put too much emphasis on education and field of work; he has a Bachelor’s degree from a so-so college and a dull corporate job. (His profile was also terribly written when he showed it to me after we met offline, so if a guy is not a great profile writer, don’t dismiss him immediately). My partner is also of a different ethnicity and I may have not contacted him online, because I had decided on a certain “type.”

        3) Working on yourself and gaining confidence with dating is important, but remember the role of luck and timing. I was lamenting to my therapist that I “had it all” but I just couldn’t find the right guy, maybe I didn’t deserve one? She told me life is very random and luck and timing is always in the mix. When I was lonely and looking for love, my partner was in an unhappy marriage thousands of miles away. It just so happened when we met, he had been single for two years and was seriously interested in a relationship, as was I. We also met by total coincidence – staying at the same hotel when my plans changed last minute; a few hours’ difference would mean our paths never would have crossed. So make your own luck as much as possible and don’t count on bumping into the love of your life at the post office as EMK says! But you have to persist in your search for love because at some point, your skill, work, learning, luck and timing will align if you don’t give up.

        1. Marika

          Haha, g’day to you too, Maya 🙂

          Thanks so much for answering my question in so much useful detail.

          I long ago stopped worrying about education level and I *try* not to judge badly written profiles (that’s a tough one, though!). I never cared about height or hair. This thing about comfort though, comes up a lot. That’s something I need to tattoo on my forehead, as I regularly mistake nervous excitement for chemistry/love.

          Thanks again, and congratulations!

      2. 14.2.2
        Maya

        Oh and I forgot to add- what stood out when I met my partner is that I felt really safe and comfortable with him during our initial conversation, in addition to being interested in each others’ backgrounds and travels and the usual first date fodder! (We didn’t meet on a date, just bumped into each other and starting chatting for lack of anything better to do!)

  15. 15
    No Name To Give

    I really feel for people looking for commitment and marriage these days. It’s like chasing a unicorn. I am really worried for my daughter.  She’s only 17, but she’s going to have a lot tougher time than we had.

  16. 16
    SparklingEmerald

    Maya @ comment #14  – Congratulations to both of you !  This is good news to hear.  Best wishes and happiness to you and your lucky fiance !

     

  17. 17
    Marika

    Shaukat Haha, I probably should let it go as you’ve forgotten, but ageeess ago you and I had a back & forth about politics too. It was just after Trump was elected and I think we were all a bit bruised and scarred. You said Aussies loved to take digs at you guys over this stuff – and it’s true, we do!

    1. 17.1
      shaukat

      Ha, Marika, are you sure that wasn’t you and Chance? I actually live just north of border, plus I’m pretty sure you and I would largely agree on that topic! But I’ll take your word for it:)

  18. 18
    Christie

    Apologies as brevity is not my strong suit. My comments and emails would make Tolstoy blush! My last name starts with an L, and I am the originator of the email Evan posted (Evan–you can verify that it is me as you know my email address which has my full name attached).  Additionally, I should have edited that baby for errors before sending! Hurts my eyes! Hah! I was reluctant to read comments as I have been placed center stage to be potentially judged and if not worse–stoned. Honestly, I have not read them all. I was not trying to be arrogant in my post or in my description of myself. These are attributes about me my friends and family comment on all the time. They ask how someone (I just turned 43 since I wrote in) has no wrinkles (I use sunscreen and a lot of it and wear hats) and how I am in such shape (I do runs and tough mudder, stuff like that). I eat very healthy and do not believe apple cider vinegar cures cancer. With regards to my looks,  I cannot go to the grocery store without getting hit on whilst toilet paper to wipe myself (and I could be in baggy jeans, a T shirt with little to no makeup), for Pete’s sake. I get hit on by men AND women, and you know, when you are trying to buy feminine products, it gets old! Just sayin’! It was not that he is a cop, it is also that he loves football and plays video games. I do not believe in football, it is linked to CTE. With my medical degree, I do not endorse it.  I am a medical degree, sci fi geek, music loving, singing, volunteering 80s, artistic, runs her own business,  trail running nerd. We do not have a lot in common, and ultimately, it did not move forward as we have conflicting standards of what kind of relationship we both want. I am the one who called it quits. Over the last ten years, I have gone for people like me, who on paper, share almost identical loves (hobbies, similar political and religious beliefs), including people who are the same personality type (if you get down with that–I am an ENTJ). All of those relationships did fail because those people lied about drinking and drug use (I do not smoke or use drugs, and actually, I drink zero. I am not an ideologue, but drug use is a deal breaker, and people hid their drug use–even a paramedic I dated and was in a serious relationship with).  But, after a lot of reflection, and digging back into my textbooks and other readings and looking at psychological, peer review articles, I think I have discovered the recipe for disaster I have been operating under while online dating–kid you not! THIS is what I have discovered, and Evan (and others). I think you might appreciate this. Previously, I was with people over the years primarily in long distance relationships, ranging from 2 to 4 hour drives. Now hear me out! There is evidence to support what I am about to type!(Some of this you have touched upon Evan in previous posts–now I am going to wrap it all together!)This has nothing to do with mirroring or attracting someone like you (excuse me, I do not do drugs, and someone who says they are clean and monogamous in their profile and yet is poly and a pot smoker in reality is NOT me attracting similar!) Here we go!Online dating. If you talk to someone online for an extended amount of time before meeting, especially when it is long distance, you will have more personal email exchanges compared to if you just met someone right away who is local after only a couple of exchanges. This is where mirroring comes in, because you have the potential for mirroring this experiment: http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/02/12/love-in-the-lab/When you share personal things and life experiences with a stranger, while attracted to their photo, you are generating a connection that is not based in reality, not really. You do not have the inflections of the physical world, and your brain starts filling in the gaps. So you share your dreams, your hopes, and you start to PAIR BOND (google pair bond in animals and humans for more info). Not only are you beginning the pair bonding process, you are also doing it digitally–which involves texting and exchanging emails. With this, you have now activated the nucleus accumbens of your brain–AKA, the reward center. You are not getting dopamine hits and engaging in the intermittent reward process loop while bonding with someone you have not even met! And myself, like many others out there, will call this “the spark” or the connection. Now, you decide to meet in person, and if your physical attraction hold, and you kiss (or more–which is how my serious clusterfecks started), BAM! You know just pair bonded almost fully with someone you just met, have no idea who they are, although you have exchanged some emails, and away you feel with infatuation or the feeling of love flowing over you. What then happens now, is you’ve got brain chemicals messed up AF! You now have a cocktail of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and serotonin, and they are slammin’ in hard! This is what makes you feel like you are gushing all over the place!And for anyone reading who has fell into this “trap”, tell me if this sounds familiar? You keep seeing them. You keep on with the texting, which keeps the reward system part of your brain lit up like a Christmas tree, and you start to see red flags, except, you either excuse them because you are “in love” or you are too high on your own brain chemicals to even notice or care, until your partner starts to do something REALLY bad which makes you exist the relationship. I can honestly say, and own up to the fact, that this is EXACTLY what has been going on with me. Going forward, I refuse to engage in email exchanges like that. I limit texts, and demand we speak on the phone. I did meet another person briefly after and the distance is just too darn far. I feel that while in long distance (we hear of it working sometimes, but more often that not it DOESN’T and I believe Evan has said the same), you live in a fantasyland. Your relationship is not based on proximity and actual human reality, you are existing like Neo in the Matrix. Thanks again Evan, I was not expecting you to post that, in at first, I was a bit freaked out, but here we are. -Christie

    1. 18.1
      Nissa

      The simple thing to do here is to not do long distance. If they are far away,  let them come to you and dwell in your space while you get to know them. Problem solved.

      1. 18.1.1
        Sandra

        I think she should move.  Seems like where she is at is a dead end.  Portland/Seattle/SF Bay area or San Diego would be good choices.  I also recommend she check out the Reno/Lake Tahoe area.  Reno is arty/quirky and Tahoe is a paradise for outdoor enthusiasts.

    2. 18.2
      Noquay

      So then, what does one do if ones only choices are long distance or adopting a more city/suburban lifestyle that you hate in order to meet more compatible folk? That’s been my issue since my marriage broke up. Date local means dating incompatible or date city and utterly hate where he lives. By the way, brainiacs and trails rock!

  19. 19
    Jeremy

    Sometimes the qualities that we think make us the best people actually make us the worst relationship partners.  Would you want to be married to Jesus, Moses, Gandhi, Mother Teresa?  Would there be room in their lives for you, or at least for you to mean to them what you want to?  This was the line of thinking that occurred to me when I read your recent posts, Christie.  You sound like someone with a lot of really excellent qualities and with an idealistic world-view that you pursue relentlessly (BTW, I’d bet that you mis-typed your personality).  You’ve digested Evan’s advice to try men who might be outside of your traditional comfort zone.  But Evan’s work is also pervaded by another piece of advice – the fact that men choose women for long-term relationships based on how those women make them feel.  Not based on how amazing they are as people, or how relentlessly they pursue their idealism, or how many other people or animals they’ve helped.  It’s not about men feeling belittled or emasculated by a woman whose dial is constantly turned to HIGH, but rather that such a woman, in her pursuit of her ideals, fails to accomplish the relationship goals of her partner.  One might think that the solution to this is to find a partner who espouses the same world-view, whose idealism drives him to the same behaviors.  But I don’t think that will work, because such a person would be a terrible relationship partner.  Rather, it might necessitate the introspection that in order to be a wonderful relationship partner, being that wonderful partner needs to be the primary goal and all else must become secondary.  And this was the crux of my conversation with Mrs. Happy above about doctors.  Doctors tend to make awful relationship partners – the more idealistic the doctor, the worst the partner (in general) – unless they prioritize their relationship above their work and above their perceived mission.

    1. 19.1
      No Name To Give

      Marriage is service and sacrifice. One cannot serve two masters. To pursue a life of service and making the world a better place is by no means wrong. It’s a matter of deciding what your calling is. This is not saying you can’t be in a marriage and not have your own hobbies and interests but not to the exclusion of your partner. One of the greatest lessons I learned in my divorce is marriage will take much more work and dying to self than you ever think it will. That is not a bad thing IF you are ready to do it.

    2. 19.2
      Nissa

      I am surprised that anyone wouldn’t want to be married to Jesus, Moses, Gandhi or Mother Theresa. It’s an incredible relationship quality to be such an authentic, honest, walking-the-talk person. Those people were able, to a very high degree, to translate those idealistic thoughts into a livable lifestyle. A partner to any of those would never have to worry about dishonesty, cheating, hidden addictions,etc. The mission is to be at the highest level of wholeness and integrity with every person, starting with one’s spouse. The mission would require being the best partner you could be. Relationships ARE the work, they are the mission.

      1. 19.2.1
        Mrs Happy

        Anyone who spends all of their free time following their passion, or who quits paid work and all other friendships and connections to follow their passion, is going to be a very absent partner, thus a crappy spouse.  The people listed above walked around preaching, served the poor and sick, spent time incarcerated.  They were not available to have fun times with their spouse, children or friends.  They were not available to build a long term romantic relationship.  They would have been incredibly crappy partners.  Good people, but completely unavailable.

        1. Nissa

          Nope, can’t agree. The difference is that I am that kind of person, and I know those kind of people. When the mission is your life, it means that you prioritize your partner just as highly as you do your self and your mission. Is it better if your partner is on board with it? Yes, much better. But not impossible.

          For example, I volunteer weekly at my spiritual center, have for years. When I was married, it was a complete non issue for my spouse, who was very much not into my mission. He used that time to play video games, go out with friends, etc. He got to have man cave time. I can think of many men who would LOVE to have time to themselves that did not entail a ‘honey-do’ list. However, if that had been an issue for my ex, of course I would have had to take that into consideration, out of love for him and respect for his position in my life. But I believe that it is completely possible, easy even, to honor one’s mission and to honor one’s spouse at the same time. The sense of honor that creates the need to accomplish the mission, also creates the need and desire, to honor one’s spouse in the same way. Even if you read Mrs. Gandhi’s memoir, she had a hard time with her expectations of him in the beginning – but as he loved her, honored her and his mission, she came to appreciate and value them as he did. But most of us are never called to those levels of life and death, so the stakes are much lower.

          Most of us do paid work and volunteer on the side, until we find a way to get paid for the mission. Either way, we are contributing to the relationship. Even those that don’t get paid, still contribute, just as stay-at-home moms contribute and don’t get paid. There is still great value to the partner who provides the income. If there wasn’t, people wouldn’t stay in it. Simple.

          Today’s technology means that I can work a day job, make videos at night “preaching” and put them on YouTube, and still reach more people than I would by walking around. There’s an assumption here that there is no fun in serving the poor and sick (see Claire Windland’s video here: https://www.facebook.com/dailygoalcast/videos/249685645600460/ )

          , talking to the homeless (I had a lovely conversation with a homeless person 3 days ago, about relationships) , though in full disclosure I have never been incarcerated…though in this presidency I think the likelihood is greater. Also, there is no reason why a couple could no do those things together. In spite of that, I also spent time with friends, went out dancing, watched movies, read books (and blogs), spent time with my pets and had enough time to scroll though dating profiles.  I am confused by the idea that one would use a man’s mission as a heuristic for how he will prioritize his wife. Why wouldn’t I be using his behavior towards me, his potential wife, as that heuristic? If a guy shows up – plans, pays and shows interest consistently – then he should not be penalized for having a passion. If he doesn’t, then he gets dumped, mission or no.

          Whether one is serving the homeless, or serving the poor and sick, it can be fun. When I was caretaking for my Dad while he declined due to renal failure, we made jokes about getting him medical marijuana (Dad was a Republican), popped wheelies in his wheelchair on the way to the doctor, set up Skype in hospice so he could talk to my out-of-state sister and her kids. Is it all fun? No, but the non fun times had a sense of appreciation for what could be done, and the value being given and received. The mission is a framework for life, not a life-replacement.

          Buck25, when I think back to my marriage, and those I knew who did not have a mission, I did not know a single person who in fact gave themselves wholly to the relationship. They gave their partners little pieces and the rest went to work, kids, and their addiction of choice. For those with a mission, giving of the self to the degree one can give, is the first order of business. Knowing the boundary of what cannot be given is the second.

      2. 19.2.2
        Jeremy

        That tends to be the opinion of the idealist personality, Nissa, and unfortunately it tends to be wrong more often than it’s right IME.  It reminds me of a conversation I had with Marika a while back, that the advice we each need is not to follow our proclivities, but rather when NOT to follow them.  The idealist woman searches for a partner who expresses authenticity, who has a mission in life and follows it – so that she can respect him specifically for the qualities she most admires in herself (or wishes she had).  Problem is, using a man’s mission in life as a heuristic for how well he will prioritize his relationship with his wife/children is fraught with error.  In fact, the function connecting the two variables is more likely negative than positive.  You wrote, “relationships are the work, they are the mission.”  This is only true for people for whom relationships indeed are the mission.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,
          “That tends to be the opinion of the idealist personality, Nissa,”
          I’m an idealist and I have no interest in dating someone like Gandhi, who is obsessed with a cause. Yes, a man should have something he believes in and that moves him (doesn’t have to be his job), but not to the point where it’s his whole existence. That kind of a person sounds like a bore … plus, let’s be honest … too goody goody … no dirty birdy, and a man needs a little of that.

      3. 19.2.3
        Mrs Happy

        Dear Nissa,

        The practicalities of married life with children demand a present partner.  Wait until your 4 week old baby is rushed to hospital with meningitis, and your oh-so-busy mission partner can’t come because he has a big rally speech the next day and wants to sleep well instead.  Or until your 15-year old son wants Dad at just one of his Saturday soccer matches, and Dad will never come because he is mentoring young adults who are following his mission.

        You wrote,  “It’s an incredible relationship quality to be such an authentic, honest, walking-the-talk person”.   I agree that it’s an incredible personal quality, and clearly honesty and authenticity are valuable characteristics in a partner, but to be overly devoted to a cause, is a relationship negative, if it takes too much time away from time together.  Your once a week volunteering is fine and I’d not define that as a cause.

        The cynic in me says some people avoid family and household responsibilities because of their all-important cause.

        1. Nissa

          The difference is that you are projecting about possible scenarios, and I’m talking about something I experience in real life. My married friends with a mission do things together.  They decide, together, what their priorities are as a couple. They attend classes, host a group meditation, do Bible study, or spend the morning cooking for their homeless feeding program as a couple. Their kids seem to be doing fine, too. There’s no reason that those things can’t be rescheduled around kid things, and often are. Dad can bring his mentees to son’s soccer game and show them what being a father is about. Solved. If you have an infant in the hospital and go to a rally instead, that’s not being committed to a cause – that’s looking to others for value and worth. Most people who have a cause are not that bound in ego.  Being surrounded by others with a commitment to the same goal means that when you can’t step up, others step in and function as extended family.

          When you need a babysitter, lose a job, or need help, someone is there. Someone else goes to the rally, or takes care of your media to get it rescheduled. My point is, my cause did not get derailed when I became my Dad’s caregiver; it was merely redirected. The mission to live at a certain level of integrity and grace still went on. When Dad passed, I went back to my volunteer work, regular class work, and side job. I’ll be doing that the rest of my life….in addition to being a loving partner who prioritizes her spouse, and his needs.

          If someone avoid responsibilities…that’s on them – no cause needed. And it’s been my experience that people with a passion – any passion – ARE passionate, which carries over into the bedroom. Hubba-hubba!

  20. 20
    Buck25

    Relationships ARE the work, they are the mission.

    Nissa,

    With all due respect, that’s just the problem. That kind of person, that kind of single minded visionary, with that kind of purpose-driven sense of mission, can never be entirely devoted to you, no matter how admirable or wonderful they may be, or you may be. Their purpose, their mission, their ideal of service above self, precludes it. They are not yours to have; they belong to their mission, to the world, to humanity. They have no space in that life of theirs for you or any other one individual; if they were to try to give you that, they could not do so without compromising their primary mission, and that, they will not do.

    This may disappoint you, for to you it may not seem right that someone so authentic, so purposeful, so real, could not, and in most cases does not, prioritize a relationship with one other person, over the vision and the ideals which are everything to them. Perhaps you may even see it as selfish, in a way, despite the obvious altruism And yet, when you think of it, some of the most wonderful people and things in all the world are are only given to us to admire, to appreciate, to look at, sometimes to marvel at, and to learn from. These people can never give themselves wholly to one other person; their very self is a thing they cannot give to another. In effect, they already ARE married; not to a person, but to their vision, their ideal, their mission. In a sense, they are born,  live, and sometimes die, for something far greater, something much bigger than any one of us, or any one relationship.

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