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Carol
Dear Carol,
If a guy wants to meet with you, but can’t take the effort to pick up the phone, he clearly doesn’t want to meet you that bad.
But there’s more to it than that, which is why I chose to answer your question this week.
Now, to all our readers, Carol is a private client of mine, and, to be honest, a favorite. She’s in her early 60’s, a tough age for a single woman, but she doesn’t let it get her down. She has a can-do attitude, a great sense of humor, and a healthy perspective on this whole dating thing.
When we were working together on the phone, she had great success and lots of dating options. She was also bombarded by men’s phone numbers, so I gave her a technique to redirect them in a positive way.
Any man who is serious about you can pick up the phone to show it.
If a guy offers his phone number, but you want him to call you, you have to give him a playful counteroffer, one in which he feels encouraged, not rejected.
Dear Fred,
Thanks for the email. Sounds like you have big plans this weekend with your daughter. Let me know if you’re looking for a good restaurant in the Berkeley area.
Anyway, I’m flattered that you offered your number and very much look forward to speaking to you. But, call me traditional, I’d like it even more if you called me. My number is 555-1212 and I’ll be home after 8pm on Thursday night. Look forward to hearing from you then.
Carol
Thus Fred gets what he wants AND Carol gets what she wants. He’s not being rejected. He’s being complimented and encouraged to continue his advances. All Carol asks is for him to make a further investment in her. And she makes it real easy for him by warmly and confidently giving him a window to call. Fred’s job, at that point, is to either call her or to give her another time he can call her. If he ignores her email, she has her answer. Any man who is serious about you can pick up the phone to show it. …
But before we call it a day, let’s understand why men do what they do.
If Fred’s been rejected by hundreds of women online, he doesn’t see the point in writing any more long, thoughtful emails. Instead he concocts a cut-and-paste job, “I think that we have a lot in common. If you’re interested, give me a call at 555-1717. Fred.”
This email doesn’t mean Fred is a bad guy. Or inarticulate. Or not relationship oriented. It just means he’s a crappy online dater, because he’s put Carol in an uncomfortable position.
The fact is: women don’t want to have to make the first move. And you know what guys? They shouldn’t have to! Too many men try to save time by telling women to call them, not realizing that there’s no chivalry, courtship or flattery in writing your phone number on a bathroom wall and saying “For a good time, call…”
Just like meeting someone at a party, you take HER card and follow up with her as soon as possible. That shows her YOUR level of interest and gives her the reassurance that she’s really valued. Give her your card and you can’t expect to ever hear from her.
So, Carol, the men who email you their numbers are most likely some combination of a) lazy, b) frustrated, c) clueless, d) not interested. They’re putting their flyers on car windshields and hoping that some business trickles in. The way THEY see it, if YOU were interested, you’d call them.
The men who email you their numbers are most likely some combination of a) lazy, b) frustrated, c) clueless, d) not interested. They’re putting their flyers on car windshields and hoping that some business trickles in.
But I don’t blame you for not wanting to. A man needs to EARN you. No man deserves a date simply because he’s cute and knows how to type out his digits. He has to charm you, woo you, make you laugh, win your trust, build rapport, gain comfort. THAT’s when it’s time to ask for a date.
However, the instant gratification of the internet makes it really hard to insist on this process. Men email their phone numbers wantonly because SOMETIMES it actually works. What they don’t realize is what a bad strategy it is. They think because they get a few numbers that it’s effective. It’s not.
Literally 80% of emails in which men OFFER their phone numbers are IGNORED.
You may think you’re saving time by giving your number, but you’re just turning off women. Women who want to feel valued and safe before they meet. Women who think the tradition of men courting women is something to be upheld.
Keep doing what you’re doing, Carol. Because it doesn’t matter how long who wrote to whom first. He’s the man, you’re the woman. Which means it’s his job to ask for your number, ask you out, pick you up, and pay for your first date. And if he doesn’t get that, then, well, some other guy will.
Ben says
I usually do end up offering my number first, but it’s not because i’m wanting her to call me first.
Per Evan’s book, you should really ask the woman out in the third/fourth email. As part of this ‘ask-out’, i include my phone number – she then usually offers hers in response. I suppose i could just leave it out, and wait for her to offer her number in response.
Alan says
Here’s my counter-question, Evan. I agree that guys should call first. However, it’s my guess that many women are hesitant to give out their phone number to someone they meet online. I feel that a guy offering his number first is a good faith gesture to try and elicit her phone number in return. If phrased well, I’m sure it can come off as a nice gesture:
“My cell is ###-###-####. I’d like to continue our conversation over the phone. What’s a good time to call you?”
Not sure if that’s it, but it’s all I’ve got on short notice (and admittedly I’m not very suave).
What do you think of the above? Am I way off base? Did I miss something? Is it an exception? Etc.
Paul says
I agree re not feeling comfortable asking for her number because they may be reticent- that’s why I have tended to take the approach of giving the woman my number. This is 2014 not 1914. She probably makes phone calls all day long in work so what does it matter who calls who?
Maybe I’m wrong, but the above article seems to be another example of dating advice based on “rules” (possibly outdated) rather than common sense and doing what seems normal in the situation.
For the above example, maybe age is a factor, but younger women who are put off enough not to say in response “my number is …. give me a call sometime” or simply to pick up the phone aren’t interested in the first place.
Steve says
The fact is: women don’t want to have to make the first move. And you know what guys?
Very true .
It is will also be true that the small number of women who are exceptions to this rule will write in saying that they do not mind taking the initiative.
Rachael says
Sounds like that’s my cue.
While it’s true that women are mostly uncomfortable with making the first move, I can’t agree with Evan that “they shouldn’t have to”. It strikes me as unfair that men have to make the first “real” moves – phone calls, ask-outs, pay for first dates, the works.
But here’s the thing – it doesn’t matter if I think it’s unfair, because even if Evan’s wrong that we “shouldn’t have to” do it, he’s dead on that most of the time, we won’t. Most women have a lot of options when they’re dating, especially online dating, so we can afford to bypass men who expect us to call them.
All that said, back when I was still dating (I’m one of those annoying married women who read this blog to get insight into the typical male mind), if I wanted a guy badly enough, I’d make the first move. I married a man with whom I made the first move. I asked HIM out, I paid (it was his birthday)…technically speaking, I even asked him to marry me (though he chooses to remember that he did the asking).
But when I was an online dater? I never made the first move. I was filtering through enough e-mails every week not to have to.
So I guess it comes down, as always, to practicality – are you willing to forego all the women who are going to be unwilling to call you first?
Janice says
Thanks so much for this post, Evan! As a single 50 yr young lady, I also encounter the same situation. But, I AM old-fashioned, and will never be the first to call! Thanks for reassuring us that we should not be expected to reply to a phone number!
Janice says
Alan:
For me personally, that would work. I am not comfortable giving out my number, and handling the situation as you have suggested would put me at ease. Don’t sell yourself short – you’re more savy than you think!
Lance says
I’m a big proponent of the guy making the first move, even online. I like the fact that the guy asking for the number and calling first is a GESTURE…I mean, it says something about what he’s after, his interest level, and his confidence.
I’ve had it go both ways plenty of times, where she tacks on her number and says something to the effect of “really enjoyed the convo, give me call if you want to hang out.” I’ve done the same thing, where I’ll be meeting friends out and I’ll just write in my last email, hey, here’s my number, shoot me a text if you’re out and let’s meet for a drink. The girls I usually communicate with online are girls that go out to the bars anyway on Friday and Saturday, so this sometimes works. It’s great too, because it takes the pressure off of a date.
With that being said, I prefer to make the first call.
BeenThruTheWars says
Re: Rachel’s comment (5): Lots and lots of things in life are unfair. But you can either accept that “what is, is” and learn to work within the paradigm toward success — or you can fight it and spend lots of time applying cold compresses to that bruised head you’ve been beating against the wall.
I’m also married (2.5 years on July 1). When I was dating, whenever I would make the first move, it would get me laid but never brought the kind of quality connection or romantic relationship I was looking for. Once I learned the truth about male/female dating dynamics, accepted and embraced it, and let the man be the man while I focused on being the girl, I had far more success. My now-husband led the way strongly, all the way, from start to finish. I never had to wonder “where is our relationship headed?” because he never left any doubt that he was seriously interested. I just sat back and purred through our entire courtship. Heaven.
(Unsolicited plug for Evan: my husband also still quotes from my profile, almost four years after first seeing it! Take Evan up on his profile writing services — you will never be sorry you spent the money.)
I am a dating coach myself. Many of the women I work with ask, well, why CAN’T I call him first? Why can’t I ask him out? I say, go ahead! Nothing’s stopping you. Have at it, sister. But when you get tired of ouchies and rejection… then give me a call and we’ll discuss another approach that really works.
When I was online dating, I gave the man the benefit of the doubt — that he was offering me his number because he’d been screamed at too many times for “compromising women’s safety” by asking for their numbers. Or else he was genuinely being chivalrous. I would send back a version of Evan’s letter that didn’t spell out an exact time to catch me, but warmly offered my own number in return. No followup call from the guy? No date. His loss. Next!
And trust me… once you learn to revel in the abundance of the universe, rather than expect your prospects to be limited, you will realize there is always a new prospect waiting just around the corner.
Kim says
I’m with Alan on this one. I’m new to online dating, and everyone (including my 13yo daughter) is warning me to be careful and safe. So I don’t give out my number first. If the guy doesn’t offer his, and the emailing back and forth is getting old, I ask if he minds if I call him (explaining my safety measures) and I ask for his number. So far no one has minded it, and they seem to appreciate my position. There’s nothing wrong with us gals being careful…and even though I trust Evan’s advice that men don’t like women to make the first move, the singles’ blogs that I read have plenty of men saying, “Please, ladies! Feel free to make the first move!” It takes some of the pressure off of them, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re lazy or not willing to pursue someone. I’m a traditional gal, but if I see someone I like, why should I have to wait for him to make the first move? If he doesn’t like me asking for his number, no worries and I move on. Sounds pretty simple to me.
Karl R says
Evan,
Like Alan, I generally extend my phone number as a gesture of good faith. In my (limited) experience, I’ll usually get her phone number in the next e-mail. Since her phone number was the goal, this is more than acceptable to me. I then call her within 48 hours.
Instead of phrasing anything, I just tack my phone number on after my “signature” (which is how I sometimes respond to ordinary e-mails).
What is your opinion on a man giving his phone number with the objective of receiving hers?
Ben says
Alan’s template is exactly what I was trying to convey, he just said it better. 😛
It just seems appropriate to offer my number when asking a woman out over email, even if i don’t really expect them to phone first.
xpuff says
I’m confused by this post–if we’re talking about online dating, why is calling first even an issue? I have never called a guy I met via online dating before the date. In most instances we arrange to meet in person via email, and the guy offers his phone number in case I get lost/am late/can’t find him, and I return with my number for the same reasons.
I suppose I called my now-boyfriend first. I was running less than five minutes late but did not want him to sit there and wonder if he was being stood up, so I called him to say I’d just found parking and was walking to the restaurant. Even a few minutes can seem like an eternity when waiting on a first date right?
Is it unusual not to want to talk on the phone? I never want to talk on the phone to my boyfriend when we’re in the relationship. I never want to talk on the phone prior to dating. Is this a generation thing? I’m 27, but spend much more time communicating with my SO via IM or email.
Evan Marc Katz says
Fact: Women want to be asked out.
Fact: The most effective way to ask a woman out is by making her comfortable.
Fact: She’s going to me more comfortable giving you her number after a handful of emails.
Fact: She’s going to be more receptive to meeting you for a date after a handful of phone calls.
So, guys, while it’s really nice to be respectful and concerned for her safety, why assume that she’s afraid of giving out her number? The BEST thing you can do is gain her trust by email, ask for HER phone number, CALL to get to know her, and THEN ask her out.
All this correspondence like “Hi, you’re attractive. Here’s my number, call me so we could meet at Starbucks!” is just blind date bullshit. Make a woman feel special and comfortable and you’ll get whatever date you want. Offer a phone number to a stranger and don’t be surprised when she doesn’t call.
And yes, desiring to get to know someone by phone as opposed to text IS generational. Kids these days…
Laura says
Couldn’t have said it better, Evan. THANK YOU!!
hunter says
……if she is young…..and….he is good looking…….hhmmmhh…he will give her his phone number……and she will call……..hhmmm…
José says
Mr. Katz, rather than encourage people to play these gender games, it would be more effective for people to honestly voice their wants and what they have to offer. That’s Psych 101, emotional self-sufficiency aka reaching out to others to give and receive. “Hi, you’re attractive. Here’s my number, call me so we could meet at Starbucks!” occurs because online dating is the realm for the socially inept.
Myth: She’s going to be more receptive to meeting you for a date after a handful of phone calls.
Fact: She met a bunch of men at the bar, the gym, supermarket, etc, and went out with them on the spot or later without the exercise of a bunch of calls.
Online, if done thoughtfully, you have the opportunity to write and read people’s thoughts, values, and love style (Dr. Lee). At the bar she went with the man aka total stranger without the benefit of the CV/resume. We’re working backwards acting as if online dating were some mystery or leap into the unknown vs. the dark bar where judgement is impaired by drinks.
What’s next the “friends first” imaginary zone? Explicit honesty folks- try it.
EmeraldDust says
Jose – A phone call provides an additional audio feature that a 2D profile does not. When you meet a guy in a bar/classroom/bookstore/subway, at least you are looking at a 3D person and conversing with them.
No with so many OLD profile ghost writers, a person’s profile might present a witty, upbeat, clever intelligent person, but the phone call reveals a person with a downer personality or an argumentative personality, or a voice tone that it is too irritating to live with.
I speak from experience. I have screened men out from phone calls (as has happened to me as well). I have also gone out on short meet and greets with guys where the phone call was a little bit “iffy”. I know now to screen better. Many (but not all) of my bomber first dates were very predictable based on the guys phone personality.
José says
Agreed, women should know what they want and be responsible for themselves and how they treat other people. The OP “Carol” can’t even make or receive a telephone call. If a woman can’t handle a telephone call, she can’t handle a real romance outside of the imaginary realm. When I get the “let’s chat online more” I drop her and move on. Those same “text more” women do not read my thoughtful profile to waste my time with questions like, “so, where do you live? How old are you…?”
They are socially inept in every way. Retreating to the internet is a safe way for ego stroking. The internet term is “attention whore.”
christine says
You are so right☆I wrote to this guy online to say hi just to feel him out. My response was your so pretty here is my number???WTF I’m sorry but I don’t know anything about 8you and I’m supposed to just cold call you ..talk about uncomfortable.
hunter says
…that’s what you get for making the first move…LOL..!!!
Benjamin S says
Hi hunter. I disagree, as this happens even when the man is the instigator. One gentleman with a minimalist profile reached out to me. I greeted him in return. His next communication was message providing his phone number. I informed him that I wished to build some rapport before deciding on that step. He asked me about my plans for us to meet. I felt that such a question was more appropriate for him to answer, considering he is in PA and I am in NY. So I posed his question to back to him. He was making no move to build rapport (and instead seemed interested only in establishing phone communications), and I wanted to give him a chance reveal himself, so that I could determine whether it was worth moving to the next step of talking on the telephone. Therefore, I asked him some in-depth and interesting questions about himself. His response: “I have lost interest. Good luck to you.” I laughed to myself, thinking “I had no interest to even lose, in the first place.” So as you see, I did not make the first move. He did. It was up to me state my requirements for moving beyond the dating website and into my more personal space. And I did.
Sam says
🙂
Steve says
I never thought to offer my phone number first as a sign of good faith that I respect the woman’s concerns about safety. I guess like xpuffs point it is a generational thing. These days police records are online. When I sense interest I just text the URL for my parole profile to the woman. She can see that I served my time, have been out on the streets for years without incidence, that I am on medication and that I have been through extensive therapy for stalking. The ankle bracelet that the police use to track my whereabouts is just an extra bonus. By the time all of these bases are covered my phone number gets forgotten about
Alan says
Evan, I’m asking about giving her my number with the intent, as explicitly stated, of calling her. That is, implicitly or explicitly asking for her number with the understanding that I will call her, but giving her my number: to show I’m serious, to show I’m credible, to back up my request for her number (share and share alike), to give her the chance of calling me if that’s what would make her most comfortable (if she doesn’t want to give me her phone number, for example).
Similar to what you suggest, it’s designed to make her feel more comfortable and more at ease. I just want to get your take on it.
And I guess that non-phone thing is generational. I wouldn’t even think of texting a conversation with someone I’ve never met (i.e., someone who isn’t already a friend).
Evan Marc Katz says
I understand your motives, Alan. I just don’t see the advantage of offering your number.
Ask for hers, call her, and there’s nothing for anyone to think about.
If she balks for safety reasons, THEN you give your number.
But giving your number first makes LOTS of women uncomfortable precisely because they DON’T want to make the first move…
David says
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But what if, by being asked to give her number, she feels you are moving too quickly? Maybe she felt she could have done with another couple of emails each way? Maybe you never hear from her again as a result.
Recently, I suggested meeting up and said “maybe it’s best to discuss a time convenient to us both on the phone” and then added on my number. That way, it’s natural.
Some women may think: “Why is he asking for my number? Can’t he ask me out on email instead?”
Glenda says
I find it interesting that there’s so much difficulty in deciding how to approach a woman about the first call. All of the men I dated whom I have met online have been very respectful and asked me, after exchanging a various number of emails, whether I felt comfortable talking on the phone. And when I said yes, they then all asked whether they preferred if they called me or if I called them, and a time was prearranged at my convenience. Simple, really!
And even though eHarmony’s safety tips suggest that women may prefer that they place the call to the man, so that they don’t have to give out their phone number, with so many people having CallerID, I think that’s pretty irrelevant advice. Like Carol, I prefer to have the man place the first call, to my cell phone, so the number’s not linked to my home address and messages aren’t picked up by my kids.
Jeramel says
I think women don’t want to make the first move by calling the guy on the phone unless the girl is sugar mommy.. hehe. But single and as same as age of the guy is not the girl to make the first move, mostly is the only guy to make the first move. And I think in texting its okay for the girl but calling the phone number of the guy is hard. hehe
starthrower68 says
While I certainly understand the safety thing, I gotta go with Evan on this one. I don’t want to have to make the first move because I really think that sets the stage for me doing the chasing and I don’t want to. I still hold fast to the notion that if a man is truly interested in a woman, she will know. He won’t leave her guessing.
Glenda says
Starthrower68–
PLEASE don’t underestimate the safety thing when giving out your number. I hope you, and everyone who reads this blog, is aware that whenever you give out a landline phone number, anyone can enter that into Google and not only get your address but a map to your home. You can opt out of this option–just enter your phone number and when the appropriate result comes up, you can select to have that no longer displayed. Google does NOT search and display cell phone numbers–I doublechecked before posting. While most people have good intentions (and hopefully you’ve screened the “UGH” ones out in the email process), you just never know. Better safe than sorry!
And before anyone submits a comments that this is off topic–hold on a sec! This, I believe is totally on topic, as evidenced by posts by such as Alan’s, who, in the hope that by providing a woman with his number, felt it would make her feel more comfortable in starting up a phone conversation than if he were to ask for her number.
starthrower68 says
Glenda, I agree with what you are saying. And I don’t have a land line phone, so no one would get that number. I know also that it’s not always easy to get a fix on someone and hear from your “gut” so to speak. But I digress and do not mean to get off topic.
Marc F. says
I think a big point that’s not being addressed here is that the woman who asked the question is in her 60s. I think the rules are way different at that age. If you’re in your 20, 30s, even 40s, then yes, the guy makes the first move by emailing, calling first, etc. From my own experience, the best way to get a woman not to call is to give her your phone number. If you sit around waiting for women to email or call you, you’ll be waiting a while. But I have single male friends and business associates in the 50 plus crowd, and they all tell me that they rarely, if ever, initiate contact with women online. They simply don’t have to. They claim to get inundated by emails from women in their age group. As such, it might behoove a woman in her 60s to take the initiative when contacting a guy.
judy says
As a woman in her sixties too, I’m not so convinced that rules were that different. Real men ask women out full stop.
I personally cannot be bothered if he cannot be bothered either. Don’t waste my time and I won’t waste yours.
hunter says
marc f, oh yes, the good looking men “get inundated by emails,” that is just what happens…..
Michele says
Karl’s post #10, Alan’s post #3, Kim’s post # 9 and lovable Evan’s numerous posts, particularly #17 (I confess…am a balker)………!! All contain very valid points.
I specifically ask for his number and always block my number during the first call or two. If he doesn’t like that…..tough. Used to give my cell # (after the first few emails, if he wrote interesting emails and asked) but that changed after receiving far too many calls from a number of men, who simply did not fit my criteria. My cell phone number is just as private as my land line number.
Now that I have a fairly good grip on how to conduct a “potential date” phone interview, it’s done on my terms and I might add in a very friendly manner. In the past if I realized that a man had no dating potential (in my humble opinion), would fib an excuse and say I will call him back…..now I point blank tell them that we probably would be wasting our time to continue talking. Am not overly abrupt but at least he won’t be bothering me.
Am still a very loving and caring person…just don’t have to bother with those who don’t have a clue about how to conduct their dating lives. Am not about to teach them either because they created their own lives.
Marc F. Your generalization about woman post 40 or 50 years of age is just that — a generalization. The population of adults post 40/50 is far greater than those in their 20’s and/or 30’s. The rules might still be the same but there are those (including me) who are an exception.
Slighty off topic……if after we do meet and he fails to call then it’s all about him not being into me (and that has happened a time or two but probably for my good, although I don’t like the sting, do get over it quickly).
The above post is not intended to insult or criticize anyone…….am merely sharing what works best in my case.
Lance says
@Michelle: Howdy, if you’re asking a question there in your 2nd to last para, then yes, if he doesn’t call after the first date it means he’s not into you or he went on other dates and found someone else. It stings and I feel that pain. I’ve had this happen to me a zillion times.
downtowngal says
Evan, I agree with you 100%.
And I like Alan’s response. I’ve had guys, after a couple rounds of email, offer their numbers and in the same email go on to ask for mine, stating that they’ll call me if I prefer. That tells me he’s interested in taking the next step, while giving me the option of what I prefer from a safety standpoint, after all he wouldn’t know me at this point.
Conversely, if, after a few rounds of emails, a guy doesn’t mention speaking on th phone or meeting up, but continues emailing, I begin to think that he’s not really interested in making the effort so I lose interest.
Internet Dating Tips says
I have to add that when a man gives you his telephone number via e-mail and you respond with your number, it is critical to input his number in your phone book immediately, because what will happen if you don’t is that when he calls, you will no way of knowing which one it is who is calling. What I usually do is put his number in my phone, save it and then take a photo of the computer screen with his picture, so that when he calls, I will see his photo on my phone. The reason for that is, imagine you have five Paul’s from the same town, and three Bill’s from another town, and seven Roberts who live in the same area code. How on earth are you going to distinguish one from another? If you have a picture, it makes it a lot easier. Another useful tip is to attach his handle on a dating site to his phone number in your phone book. I even wrote a blog post about how to keep track of men from a dating site who call you more efficiently http://internet-dating-guru.blogspot.com/2008/01/keeping-track-of-men-that-call-you.html
hunter says
Caller ID Blocking? Lots and lots of info can be googled with only a telephone number? Really? hhmmhhhh….
hunter says
to Marc F. #23
Your business associates are inundated with female responses? How delightful!….please post the secrets…hhhhhmmmhh…LOL!….
Michele says
Yes it does sting……Lance #25 post. I don’t like to loose.
Do keep in mind it’s a numbers game in reality
Clearly define what type of woman you would like and she will appear only when you know thyself. We simply cannot be everything to everyone.
Alan says
Thanks, Evan!
JuJu says
re: post 12
No talking before meeting? Really?
But that’s such an important part of deciding whether the person is even worth meeting!
JerseyGirl says
But I have single male friends and business associates in the 50 plus crowd, and they all tell me that they rarely, if ever, initiate contact with women online. They simply don’t have to. They claim to get inundated by emails from women in their age group. As such, it might behoove a woman in her 60s to take the initiative when contacting a guy.
—————————————————————————
That might be because men die sooner then women and there might be alot more 60 year old women without mates then 60 year old men..because most of them are already dead.
Karl R says
Evan (#13)
“why assume that she’s afraid of giving out her number?”
To quote you, “I’m going to put you in HER shoes.”
If I give someone my phone number, they can get my first & last name and my address. Therefore, I’m cautious about giving my phone number out … and I know that I’m much better at protecting myself than the majority of men and most women.
Evan (#17)
“I understand your motives … I just don’t see the advantage of offering your number.”
I routinely get the lady’s phone number after 2 or 3 e-mails. I get the first date after one phone call.
My motive is to get the first date without wasting a lot of time. If I make the lady’s safety a priority, I can get the first date faster. That’s enough of an advantage.
Susan says
THANK YOU EVAN!!!! I have talked to some great guys while online dating. Then they blow it by giving me their phone #. Marc explained to a T as to how a woman feels when a man does that. Basically, men are hunters, women are nuturers. It’s not our nature to pursue. And the women who chase get a hookup situation. We women are more than happy to talk, meet, and get to know you. Just don’t be lazy and throw us your #.
Cilla says
So lemme get this straight: women don’t want to give men their numbers, because of security reasons. But they also don’t want to be the first ones to call, so when a man offers his number (if HE can get around HIS concerns for security), they are at a stalemate????? And then there are those people who don’t want to do any telephone screening at all and move straight from emailing to meeting in person? And that makes you feel MORE secure??
I have a telephone “date” scheduled for this week. He emailed me first. We emailed back and forth, with him continuing to initiate the emails. He suggested we talk live and gave me his phone number. I emailed him back saying I would like to chat and asked what day of the week and time might work for him. He gave me the information and said he was blocking off time so we could talk without interruption (that sounds plenty invested and interested to me). I told him I would call at the appointed hour. He sent me another email confirming the time and saying how much he’s looking forward to it. He knows I’ll be in his city (a couple of hours away) next week, so if we get along on the phone, he’ll have an opportunity to ask me out. I’m not chasing him, but I’m also not adhering to a set a rules that sound like they’d be better applied to passing notes in 8th grade math class. Like grown ups, people! That is how you should be conducting your dating life!
TP says
Cillia I CONCUR. I always text first and if he wants to talk to me, he will call…Problem solved.
hunter says
Most, not all, female keynote speakers, at single seminars, that I have been to, emphasize, that a man give a woman, his telephone number. I think, the problem lies in the fact that, men usually give their telephone number to women that don’t need another telephone number. Some of these women already have hundreds of telephone numbers….LOL!……
hunter says
I’ll share with the ladies what I heard at a single seminar concerning men giving telephone numbers. ” If he hands you his telephone number, take it, write ‘your’ telephone number on it and give it back!”…….
Susan says
Cilla –
Technically, men should ask for the # outright. If you don’t want to give it to him, offer an alternative with what you feel comfortable with. Or what Marc suggested in his article.
The bottom line is men should ask and somewhere in time, they stopped. Now if you want to call a man first, great. At some point the man needs to take control and continue calling/making plans with you. That is why it is best to start out having the man call you period. The trick is getting him to do that.
Cilla says
Susan,
I will say it again. If you are resorting to “tricks,” you are not in an adult relationship.
BTW, there is no rule book (other than “The Rules”) that “technically” says a man should ask for a woman’s number. It was a societal convention that women themselves screwed up by becoming “liberated.” You can’t lay all the blame on men. And what alternative is there to giving your number to a man, if you can “trick” him into asking for it?
DAN says
~~~ IM A GUY and i do not ever call the lady 1st.
never never… its not that i dont want her, its that i am too shy
and for the most part feel i will fail and emails are safer.
sorry but if i know ahead of time – regadless of how i looked, or how big or ugly i was. that she wouldnt mind and i always had positive experiance with calling 1st i would.
even when she calls me, if its someone i dont know personally or have never met, i may be able to talk for weeks, but when it comes to actually meeting – i chicken out then too
ive had too many women fall in love with me over the phone 1-4 weeks and then we meet and NOTHING 🙁
hunter says
Dan, start calling the females on the telephone. All it takes is practice/experience. It may feel awkward at first, but, that goes away, if you try frequently….In most instances, if a woman is good, and healthy, all you have to do is dial up the phone, and say, “Hi, this is Dan calling” and the average woman will talk your ear off,,,,, if you let her.
MeetMeinOtrSPce says
Oh man, I broke all the rules. hahaaaa. crap. But, he gave me his phone number after he and I plus a few other friends chatted all night(not online, in person). Plus, he’s a timid guy, so I think I did the right thing. Because he likes me a lot! (calls me his boyfriend, paid for the first few dates after picking me up, and basically everything I’ve ever wanted from a guy, he does!) woo! =) Honestly, I wouldn’t count on every woman being a phone person. Have something to say! I am definitely not a phone person. I am a phone person(phone person, as in wanting to talk for no real reason in particular.) with ONE person and that is my best friend. I feel like part of what a woman expects to hear in the first phone conversation is interest from the man. It would be lame to just call and expect her to talk/chat. To me a great first phone call would have a few jokes to ease the tension/anxiety, ask how the day went, make plans then move on!
MeetMeinOtrSPce says
haha… calls me his girlfriend. oi vey. well, at least it was entertaining, mildly.
figure8 says
I much prefer the man to be the initiator. I am female, 44 and like to be pursued by the man.
Stizzz8069 says
I like to be persuaded but not to fast you don’t show all your cards yet. I personally love women nearing 50 and into 60+. I’m 39
Lanka says
I never liked to call guy first because it’s never works. If you call him and he answered the call he acts really strange like you went into his wallet and then he would ask to get back with him another time anyway because it’s wrong time, he is watching football or …………
Fractal says
Let me suggest another reason why men offer their phone number. Out of respect for women. The ones I know don’t want to pressure the woman, and with all the stalking & loonies going on nowadays, they know that women might not want to give out their phone numbers to a random they just met. So he isn’t expectng her to take the reins of the relationship – he’s just expecting her to indicate interest in a non-threatening way, just like smiling in the supermarket.
So the sample email per EMK is the perfect and appropriate response. Another option is to SMS the guy’s number, not actually call him, and say its you. this is another wink-like way of giving the guy your number, after he’s given you his, and to let him know it’s ok to call you. From there he should take the reins. If he doesn’t, then move on.
Erin says
I really love this article and the responses here … I’m 33, single, and been around the block with dating – online and otherwise. Here’s where I get stuck in this phone number situation: I run across guys online all the time who, after one or two e-mails, give me their number. It’s usually the guys that seem, on paper, like they might have potential. BUT, how am I to know? Basically, he is a stranger. It just … kills the excitement. I’m stuck in this dilemma of “I don’t want to call him because he should call me AND I don’t feel comfortable with this stranger knowing my number…yet” ALSO, in my experience, when I give out my number to a guy, they don’t call – they text. I’ve started just telling guys straight up that when I’m getting to know someone new, I won’t text. I don’t know if guys realize how much these actions are pushing women away. I would MUCH prefer to e-mail a few times, then, when I feel comfortable give him my number. I’ve tried to nicely, with a little humor, state this and have found that it angers most guys or they say things like, “I’m not on here much. It’s just easier to talk on the phone.” BUZZ KILL. Why is it so hard to meet a nice, normal guy with a CLUE?!? Unfortunately, this situation happens all the time and I lose interest … and hope … pretty quickly.
Ben says
Erin, I think it’s a bit silly that a guy giving you his number ‘kills the excitement’ for you.
I often will provide my number after a few emails and offer to call her or just meet up instead if she prefers. If you’ve really been around the online dating block you’d know that it’s good to meet up sooner than later.
I’ve definitely had women just vanish completely once i suggest talking on the phone now though. I find a lot of younger (early 30s or younger) women dont want to talk on the phone and prefer to just meet.
I”m with you on the texting though. I can save that for later.
alki says
A bit silly…are you serious? Are you in a woman’s head to know how it feels. Do you feel like a woman to understand how it kills it?
It makes no sense that a man would respond like that…if you want to know what a woman thinks- ask her. You can’t know what a woman thinks/feels by simply deciding how she should feel.
I feel the very same way as Erin. Call it just being a lady, call it being a Gemini, call it whatever- there are things that must be said and done to elevate my feelings. Not all women are simple. Some of us have depth, and some of us like to be stimulated. We want our adrenaline pumping. Its the unknown that gets us excited.
There is a reason that this worked centuries ago, and technology might have changed but people are basically the same on the inside.
Woman not only want to be courted, they NEED to be courted, for both parties benefit actually. You can throw seeds on the ground and hope it grows but actually taking the time to plant a seed and watering it increases the potential of growth by a mile…not to mention the pride you will feel at nurturing your own plant.
The fact that men have become lazy, have been misinformed by eharmony and other misguided folks, the fact that they lack self esteem, and all the other reasons they do this, doesn’t change the fact that women (most) do not like when they behave this way. IT IS A TURN OFF. Yes it might be silly to you, but there are silly facts aren’t there?
Joe says
alki, it sounds like you want men to leap over the moon and back with perfection to impress you with your courting. “I need this or that, otherwise it’s a TURN OFF.” I think you forget that relationships are a two way street and if the woman likes somebody, she needs to put in the effort and impress him as well. As in both people are trying, and not just the man who has to sit in the seat of judgement from woman. The fact that you generalize men as lazy makes it seem like you’re just lazy and expect men to do all the work in relationships.
judy says
Hunter 37 – I adore that comment. Now why didn’t I think of that?
Seriously, if he hasn’t got the energy to pick up the blasted phone, what kind of man is that?
Passive? Not interested? Shy?
GiGi says
Don’t EVER call him…unless you have been dating for a few months. Be mysterious…men love to be frustrated….look at the careers they choose….look how much they love sports….they like to be challenged…..they are hard wired that way. And DO NOT respond to every text he sends either….that makes him think about you more!
ClareAnonymous says
@GiGi #50: i agree 100% with you …and Evan. When I was the one calling first, I was also the one who planned the dates, etc…the guys (I dated after calling FIRST) wouldn’t do anything in any type of romantic gesture without me planning it! It was like, I was the man in the relationship because I was the one that was putting in any effort. I was setting the tone for the relationship and it never turned out good. I’m still single and never married at 38 years old. This time it’s different. I do not call them first. I do not ask them out first. If they are interested in me, they have to “work for it”. I’ve learned the hard way to let the man take the lead.
Joe says
Awful advice, not all men like to play these games. I like honesty and straightforwardness myself. I prefer to be happy in dating/relationships, not frustrated and confused.
hunter says
@gigi#50,
I agree with you…..
Lynn says
Thank you! This is the first time I’ve seen this topic directly addressed, with helpful suggestions for how to respond. I’m not ok calling the guy first and it’s perplexed me why someone would nearly immediately give me his number. Even when I’ve replied, here’s my number so please give me a call…they usually ignore that and continue emailing or they start texting. And I’m in my 50’s! Sheesh, dudes, that’s what that button with the green phone symbol is for.
Never thought about it in terms of the same idea as putting flyers on the car windshields 🙂 Great analogy!
Windy says
It’s been my experience that “every time” and I mean EVERY TIME I took the initiative, the guy didn’t do anything. MEANING: I was always questioning whether he really liked me or not. MEANING: He always wanted me to come up with things to do for the dates or we’d just have sex at his condo or house. I was used by men because I was so willing (meaning desperate) to be with someone and these guys (in the past) picked up on that. I’m doing things differently now, if they don’t call first or ask me on the date FIRST, then nothing is going to happen between us. Men ultimately like to be treated like Men…they like the chase (cliche or not). This time, I let them do the chasing.
Laura says
I have to be honest, this is probably my number one frustration in the dating world today…and, that’s saying something because I have a lot of frustrations to choose from. It’s frustrating because it’s so common for this to happen now that I can’t honestly tell you the last time that a man actually asked me for my number. Men, PLEASE start “manning up” in this arena. Women still want to be pursued and when you give us your number, you are basically telling us you are one of the things that Evan mentioned in his article: a) lazy, b) frustrated, c) clueless, d) not interested. These are NOT qualities that a quality woman wants to feel about you when she is considering you as a potential candidate. It’s as simple as that.
I just get so uncomfortable when a man offers me his number…so much so that I don’t even know what to do or how to respond! I can’t say, “hey!! I’m waiting for you to ask me for my number, Boso!” That wouldn’t be nice…plus, it takes the fun out of it for me when you have to teach someone the very basics. Yes, I know men get frustrated when they feel like women want them to be “mind readers,” but, you’re grown-ass men!! We can’t wipe your asses for you and feed you your bottles, too. At some point, men stopped taking initiative in our culture and started blaming it on women for their incompetence complaining that we want them to read our minds. The sad reality on this one, guys, is no, some things, you need to do on your own without us telling you. This is one of them.
For those of you who believe I’m being harsh, I want you to understand that it’s coming from a place of genuine frustration. I don’t hate men, I’m weary, though. I genuinely want a man I can respect, but, here’s the thing, everyone will tell you that respect is earned. Yes, there are a LOT of things women need to understand about men. But, it goes both ways. And, one thing men need to understand about women is that for women, earning our respect starts at the beginning and it starts with the little things. Asking a woman for her number and taking lead is a way of showing us that you aren’t afraid, you aren’t lazy, you aren’t going to sit back and be passive and watch the opportunity to get to know us pass you by. It shows us strength and courage. It seems like such a little thing, but, it’s SO important! I know, I know…you might get rejected…and that would really suck! But, nothing worth having comes easy.
The sad thing for me is, a lot of times, when a guy gives me his number, I can tell he really does genuinely like me and is hoping I will call or text him. I’ll have a guy give me his number 3 or 4 times…but, I’m kind of hardcore on this issue. I won’t even come back with a counter offer as Evan suggested because I feel THAT strongly that he should not only make the first move, but, that he really needs to ASK me for something like my number. The even sadder thing is, I might even half-way like him, or, at least want to get to know him better, but, because he won’t ask for my number, I write him off as someone I can’t possibly consider taking seriously. Why? Because it shows me weakness. I think to myself, “if he isn’t even strong enough or smart enough to ask me for my number and pursue me this early one, there is no way he has any aptitude or courage to make me feel special and cherished down the line! I’ll have to hold his hand and tell him how to treat me the entire time.” This thought seems exhausting to me. I’ll be honest, some things, his mama or daddy should have just taught him! This is something men are just supposed to know! I was raised that if a man is interested, he will ASK for my number and pursue. So, when a guy gives me his number, it’s kind of like the most frustrating non-starter in the world. It’s like chewing gum that loses it’s flavor after 5 seconds. Sure, it starts out seeming like it could be really great and tasty when you put it in your mouth! But, BOOM, 2 seconds later: biggest. letdown. ever. It’s a lot like that.
hunter says
….few men study r’ships….so, we are clueless…making us frustrated at times…..at 50 we are no longer interested….(no more hormones)…..making us lazy……
GL says
As a woman, I want to be pursued, but sometimes men are shy, or frustrated, or simply email blasting all women he thinks are hot online. I really don’t want to be wooed by a guy online because I never met him. In these situations I say just CALL THEM. This is what I do, I will show that I’m interested and if they don’t call back oh well. It’s one of my strategies…LOL I encourage them with initial contact or date suggestions, then take a huge step back and let them do the pursuing. I get annoyed at 35 emails or instant messages. I personally, lose interest because they don’t have the confidence to ask me for my number. Now my actions all depend on the situation and my level of interest…most of the time I let them ask me for my number. If they don’t pursue me after the first date regardless of who contacted whom, I’m not going to be interested anyway. This DB I went out with on Monday is so full of himself he thinks I’m going to call him about our next date, when he made it clear he doesn’t want a relationship and he thinks I’m just going to sleep with him. He asked me out too. No way dude.
Celtic77 says
I just had this same scenario happen to me (I’m early 50’s). A very handsome man, former professional basketball player, approached me online, we exchanged a few messages, then he sent me his # and asked me to call. It rubbed me the wrong way, as I have learned over the years that when I initiate contact, it never works out well – to another poster’s point, it’ll get you laid, but it won’t get you a relationship. I think most men look at women who chase as low-hanging fruit that they’ll take if interested enough but they don’t care enough to climb a tree for it.
Anyway I gently responded with MY # and a few times I was available; I also said if he expected me to call him, he needed to give me some times that worked for him as I don’t want to get caught up in phone tag (that’s happened before too and it annoys the crap out of me – I have a busy life too). 3 weeks went by with nothing. Then I replied one more time, giving available times and again asking for his and that if he was no longer interested, good luck in your search.
He shot back a kind of nasty note saying he thought I was playing games since I never called him. Methinks Mr. former NBA is used to women chasing him and thus expects them all to do so. Not this girl! Next!! If a man’s interest level is that low in the beginning, when people are usually putting their best foot forward, it’s not going to get any better later on, and by accepting it you’re signaling you’re OK with similar behavior that gives him all the options.
hunter says
..at a certain age, we need other things…I agree with what you said….
celtic77 says
Oh and one more thought. Men need to understand that we women – any quality woman – understands that SHE is the prize. We women are literally bombarded with emails and phone #s online to the point that it can become a job to sort through it all. If a man wants to get through all that noise and stand out as different from all the idiots making the (very) minimal effort of throwing thier # around, he needs to pursue. Make her comfortable online first, & she’ll give you her # (she can always block caller ID info).
To guys who want us to call, I want to point out that THEY contact us first online. THEY are asking US to take time out of our busy lives so THEY have a shot at auditioning for the job of OUR boyfriend. THEY are asking us to pull their profile out of the stack for consideration. And now you expect us to initiate the call too???? If you seriously want to be considered, man up and call. To not do so makes it look like you are a coward, wanting the chick to risk being rejected etc. so you don’t have to. NOT APPEALING!!
starthrower68 says
Glad you made that point Celtic.
Tim says
Hmm, the part where you say “The man has to “EARN” you! So how does it feel being on that pedestal? What happens if pull this little stone out? It collapses and you come back to the level of decent humans!
José says
If a man gives a woman his number, it means that he wants to talk to her. Shocking! A woman has no problem giving her number out to a man she met at the bar, party, etc, especially when his wallet is bulging. Men learned to stop the endless pursuing of uninterested women sometime around the 1,000 rejection, which started at age 12.
Here’s a news flash…how about women approach a man they like to say something honest like, “hey I dig you.” That might help women overcome the lonely nights with the cat.
hunter says
…..It doesn’t work that way Jose…..men have to ask the woman for her ‘phone number…..expect to be rejected…..continue asking….a dating coach can help with that issue….
José says
Yes, of course, how foolish of me.
MaxxWiskers says
Online dating can work under certain circumstances which 100% does not apply here. Online dating is a waste of time. You have to meet in person to get anywhere. That’s the bottom line. The phone number thing is secondary. Guys are trying to get past the mental manstrabation of online with going to a phone call. But its clear it does not work.
Literally 80% of emails in which men OFFER their phone numbers are IGNORED.
A 20% success rate would be great if it was true, but it is not. Its more like a 99.8% failure rate. And the few that do succeed are often prostitutes, psychos, trannys or a candidate for the planet of the apes. This is why guys feel forced to play the numbers game, while they have a low success rate it is a success none the less.
Evan Marc Katz says
No, Maxx. You’re just shitty at online dating. Why would a woman respond to a man who gives her a phone number? Woman has 500 phone numbers – she’s supposed to call ALL of them?
You clearly aren’t thinking of anything but your own failures, which is fine, but since one fifth to one third of all marriages begin online, maybe you should revise your 99.8 failure rate.
lamonica guyton says
hi i wajt to have sex wwant u what is your phone number
amit sharma says
nice
Jim says
Women have given me their number so many times and then reject the call or seem uninterested I got tired of calling them. Here if you are serious call. I mean stop blaming men.
Karmic Equation says
It’s possible those women just wanted to be nice to you and not reject you out of hand.
So when you called and they didn’t answer, leave a message.
If they call back, great. If they don’t you know they weren’t interested. No need to “keep calling” them. Or you could try one more time.
That happened to me once. A retiree asked me for my number and I didn’t want to say no, as we were in front of his friends. Then he called me that night and left a message. I didn’t call back. He called again the next day and left another one.
I’m a nice person, and it felt really rude not to respond, so either I returned his call of picked up the next time he called (can’t remember which). Then I agreed to go on a date with him.
On the lunch date, he spent most of it implying he had a lot of money, trying to impress me. He was a nice man, but I wasn’t at all attracted and no amount of money would make me attracted. So when the check came, I insisted on paying for what I ate (which was more expensive than what he ate) — so that I could discharge my obligation to date him again. He got the message. And we remained friendly whenever we saw each other. No harm no foul.
Wandering but not Lost says
I’m here today because this week a man gave me his business card and wrote his cell on the back. The situation: it was at a cultural event. I had NOT gone there to look for a connection-that-would-possibly-lead-to-romance. Upon arrival, I noticed the man’s instant interest (eye-contact), which was later confirmed by his seeking conversation mostly with me. Conversations were in group, but then he smoothly (without my noticing it!) moved it to just the two of us at the edge of the group. Very interesting, professional man with many similar interests/hobbies/profession among a very diverse group of people. We’d break off, go talk to others/grab a bite or drink, and somehow end up at each other’s side for more conversation. While he was talking to someone else, he asked me for a pen, which then I was surprised to see that he’d used to write his cell onto his business card for me. I never felt like he was hitting on me, so I was surprised when I got the card. He’s going to be at another event I’d committed to attending (before meeting him) in the near future. I’m having a difficult time with this situation. 1- I do feel that there is fertile ground for this chance meeting to develop into a really interesting friendship, yet I know that a friendship with the opposite sex carries the high risk of turning into a relationship when many there are many mutual interests and viewpoints. Any relationship at this time would probably qualify as a rebound relationship for me, so I’m not open to this. 2- The part that pertains to this discussion: I am very much in the camp of the side that believes that the man who doesn’t have the courage to fight to get to know me, won’t have the courage to fight to keep me. This does not mean women are lazy, passive, etc. While socially adept and socially inept men approach women, we are are the ones who allow ourselves to involved in a quality conversation and unconsciously/consciously send out signals of interest. Socially inept men don’t know how to read the signs, force themselves out of one-sided interest, or see what they wish to see, or a number of other reasons that lead them to ask the number of uninterested women, or, for in the case of socially adept men, interested women who will not allow themselves to be in a relationship (I know, we’re complicated) which leads to eventual rejection (no matter how softly we wish to make it). I think women also must have the courage to fight for a relationship– just not in the same way that a man does. We need to know that we won’t be the only ones fighting to make it work because we give it our all. It’s even reflected in how we come to be: Many sperm fight to enter one egg, which closes off to all others once one is accepted, then the woman’s body gives so much of herself to nurture that life inside her (fights to keep it alive), the man fights to care for the woman emotionally and physically to do his part in nurturing that life inside her, her life is at risk when the child is born, then together they fight to keep that child growing and well, they nurture the child to have the best of themselves and not have the worst of themselves. So much harder to do with relationships, because the relationship is abstract, but I believe the same care, attention, courage applies to relationships. Sorry for seeming to digress a bit, but it’s all part of the bigger picture.
In conclusion of my opinion/viewpoint, I take the man giving his number as a gentlemanly gesture of his interest but won’t call because 1- I believe that calling him may tell him I seek a relationship, which I don’t. 2- I still wouldn’t call if I did seek a relationship because, I believe that “the universe conspires to give us what we want” and I would want a fighter. “Life always finds a way” and the new life that is a relationship always finds a way if it is strong enough. To do more than is our part creates something that could not sustain itself without overextending the normal amount of energy it takes to maintain that life, and would either grow in place of the truly strong relationship or eventually be crowded out by a stronger one. In the end, there’s no way to isolate every variable to come up with the one true answer to the question of “to call the guy or not to call.” Either way, it’s all good if we attain personal growth from the experiences. What I’ve written is a reflection of my personal growth up until today, and may be different after another experience! Best of luck to all!
hunter says
Wondering but not lost, write your telephone number on the card he gave you and give it back to him next time you see him…
Pam says
I am a woman in my late 50’s.Been attempting online dating for too many years- very little luck. Sure, men send their numbers freeley with no preamble, so when I ask for a bit more background to try to get better acquainted they rarely bother . It’s as if they can’t write a few more sentences. They want me to call and meet them after a short conversation. Most of those kind of dates fall flat cause there was not enough common ground established beforehand.I feel like they’re just interested in checking me out. Always talk about themselves, never ask about me. I agree that men shoudl be willing to put in a bit more effort.I have also not been shy to initiate but men never bother to respond at all. So much for that! who knows these days???!!!
Henderson says
Poor girls, he empowers you to control something and you can’t handle the stress. Some men like to see if a woman has enough confidence to date them. It is a fantastic way to weed out the weak and lazy, who wants a princess that has to be catered too constantly.
alex says
Carol being in her early 60’s is definitely a salient point. People are very set in their ways at that age and men (im assuming Carols dating men of a similar age) should really know they’re going to have to do the heavy lifting. I’d say if you talk to men and women in their 20’s they would see things differently; they’ve been taught their whole lives about gender equality and women initiating is far more common.