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How do I know if they are into me since I now think like men? I feel like they have to basically kiss my ass until I become fully aware, because now I feel as though I am somehow rejecting them before they have a chance. Is that okay or am I just being smart? Hard to ask my friends because they’re needy and I’m not. I do not call unless they call, chase or bug unless I want sex. In person ‘I live in the moment,’ knowing full well men do too. I even listen to the ‘I want a family speech’ and smile and playfully change the subject since I know it is meaningless. They even give me the speech that they are not ready for a commitment and I know they are trying to protect me, but I find it odd because I didn’t do anything to warrant the conversation. I know if he is into you, he will act it and all these speeches mean nothing. (You can tell all your female clients that these guys call me for years as friends because I don’t chase them, BTW).
I am just bothered because I am not dating them, and I want to date and have a good time and eventually find a good partner. I think I am pretty hot and fun so I am not too worried. Most younger men chase me, men my age are threatened and older men just don’t have the energy, but yes, chase hard. They all tell me ‘I am too cool’ and I don’t say that with pride BTW.
So, Evan, am I being too cool or really playing smart? How do I get to the dating part or is this normal by weeding out so quickly? And why do they all, I mean all, come back to me after I blow them off?
Thanks for your time!
Tray
Dear Tray,
The bright spot is that your understanding of men will make you great in a relationship. But in order to get into a relationship, you have to work backwards to find out what’s not working for you.
Here’s what’s not working for you:
You think that because you understand male behavior, you should be the woman men want to date.
It’s the world’s greatest defense mechanism – let nobody in, nobody can hurt you. Congratulations, you win!!
Not quite.
You’re trying to be ‘smart’ by cutting off men at the first hint of games. But they’re not even PLAYING games. They’re calling you, wondering what they did wrong, trying hard to win your favor, but to no avail. By looking for any sign that a guy’s going to hurt you, and turning it into a reason to freeze him out, you ultimately leave yourself alone and use your ‘coolness’ as the excuse. It’s the world’s greatest defense mechanism – let nobody in, nobody can hurt you. Congratulations, you win!!…
You live in a world where men are the enemies. But your heightened defenses are actually what’s killing you. By never showing any hints of vulnerability, you may prove to all the men who ‘come back for more’ that you’re the coolest chick around, but you’re not getting anyone to fall in love with you. You just become their guy friend. Which is where being ‘too cool’ flips over on you, Tray.
My wife is cool; she lets me be myself, hang out with guys, write about sex, talk about ex’s. But she’s not ‘too’ cool. She’s got a lot invested in me. She lets me know when she’s upset. If she acted like: ‘The dating coach is probably gonna cheat on me because most men cheat on women,’ I wouldn’t feel particularly good about her. Her trust is what inspires me to honor her.
In trying to beat men at their own game, it seems you’re only defeating yourself. You can call up a guy for sex so you can use him ‘like a guy’, but how does that make you feel? How does that further your goal of having a relationship? It doesn’t. Nor does assuming that every misstep is a ‘game’. Just cause a guy doesn’t call or confirm on time doesn’t mean he’s never to be trusted.
Just because five straight guys cheated on you doesn’t mean the sixth will as well. Each new guy has NO relationship to the last guy whatsoever.
This doesn’t mean that some guys AREN’T a load of shit. He’s Just Not That Into You tapped into the zeitgeist for a reason. If he doesn’t call, sleep with you, commit to you, propose to you, etc, he’s just not that into you. But that doesn’t mean that if a guy doesn’t follow up on a date the way YOU want him to, that he’s a liar who’s just out for one thing. It may mean he forgot, ran late, or had to take his ailing mother to the hospital. That’s life. Until you’re more forgiving, you’re going to be missing out on a relationship.
Just because five straight guys cheated on you doesn’t mean the sixth will as well. Each new guy has NO relationship to the last guy whatsoever. Yes, men can be men, but that doesn’t mean that EVERY man is that way. By assuming each man is a player, you never let anyone in and you never experience love.
The reason I wrote Why He Disappeared is because while you may know that He’s Just Not That Into You, it’s far more important to know WHY He’s Just Not That Into You.
From what I can tell, Tray, the reason you’re single is quite simple: you don’t believe a guy can sincerely love you. And unless you believe it’s possible, no man is gonna believe it either.
Much love,
Evan
andrea says
Well said.
At the risk of sounding flippant or rude, and I apologize if I do, I’d like to add that Tray needs to get over her daddy issues. Counseling (therapy) could help.
desi says
shots fired lol
max says
Ladies make gentlemen.
starthrower68 says
Hmmmm….my dad wasn’t exactly a player, but he had all kinds of – ahem – literature as he called it, and thought nothing of lusting after other women in front of my mother, though I’m sure dad was always faithful to her. I see alot of myself in Tray’s letter. Boy, the minute I see something that appears to be a “game”, I bail. Well, I have done that. I have met a really great guy and that’s causing me to have to get out of my comfort zone, deal with that inability to trust and be vulnerable. Very interesting.
Not Jerry says
I have met a really great guy and that’s causing me to have to get out of my comfort zone, deal with that inability to trust and be vulnerable. Very interesting.
Bravo.
Without risk there is no reward.
You have to let yourself be vulnerable to win the game.
Zann says
(Excellent response, Evan.)
Tray: On my most cynical days, I will remember women like you and think, “You go. I’m glad you’re out there reflecting back to men their own gaming behavior.” But in my lucid moments, I know this level of distrust and hardballing isn’t the way to get to real intimacy. A couple of your comments bother me, though. Like: “Hard to ask my friends because they’re needy and I’m not.” Whoa. Your poor friends. We’re all needy sometimes, meaning, we have needs. We’re human. Maybe your need is to hold men at a distance in an attempt to guarantee they never, ever, get one over on you. It doesn’t seem like that’s getting you where you want to be. I totally agree with many of your comments about men and the gyrations they sometimes go through to “assure” you that they are unique, ethical, and exemplary. I know it’s hard to curb your smirk, because you want to tell them, “Honey, save your precious energy..there’s no need. Because after today what you DO is what you will be.” I spend a lot of time biting my tongue, though, because hopefully one of these days, I’ll be wrong & some guy will actually deliver. I don’t agree, though, that men do the I’m-not-ready-for-commitment speech to protect me. They do it to protect themselves, so that later (if there is any later, and there often isn’t), they can say they warned you. No, if they really wanted to protect you, they wouldn’t be chasing your ass all night long knowing full well that’s gonna be all she wrote. And can a man actually protect you anyway? I think protecting myself is up to me. I don’t need a daddy to play safe for me — I need a mature straight-shooting man who cares. Lastly, your comment about telling us females that these guys call you for years, as friends, because “I don’t chase them.” Oh man. In my experience, men-friends are in no short supply. I could stack them to the rafters and so could many of my women friends. These are the guys who want to be “buddies” because you’re so fun & smart & cute & hot, blah blah blah, and then they get to flirt with you constantly and not have to do much else. I suppose some of these friendships could be long-lasting and valuable, & maybe I’m just a hardened old broad, but I find I can’t endure these buddies because I can’t respect the guy…because in my opinion, he said no thanks to intimacy but still wants my energy & smarts & my ear. I’d rather give that to my women friends. Good luck and I hope Evan’s words will bring some answers for you.
Karl R says
“How do I know if they are into me since I now think like men?”
Tray,
I’m going to dispute this. You think like a player, and you have limited understanding about how other men think. Even worse, you assume that your insight into players allows you to understand how other men think.
If a man tells you that he’s not interested in commitment, you believe him. If a man tells you he wants a family, you assume it’s meaningless. What precisely do you think men who want relationships and families say?
If you sleep with a man on a first date, you “know” you won’t see each other again. You assume that it’s over before it even begins. You “know” that he’s not that into you (regardless of evidence to the contrary). These are all self-fulfilling prophecies.
Since my most recent break-up, I’ve gone out with two amazing women. Both are petite, attractive, fit, intelligent, well-educated, successful, fun, funny, and incredible dancers. Both of them are worth pursuing … but one difference made the choice between them easy.
One lady is obviously interested in me. The other one is affectionate and friendly, but I’m not sure she’s interested in a relationship. Is she disinterested, or is she just playing it cool? I don’t know, and I don’t care. I’ll expend my time and energy on the woman who shows that she is into me as much as I am into her.
“I feel as though I am somehow rejecting them before they have a chance.”
That’s not thinking like a man or like a player. That’s thinking like someone with low self-esteem. Most men (and all players) take the risk of being rejected every time they pursue a woman. The men who don’t take that risk don’t get dates.
If you want to get to the dating part, you’ll need to risk rejection … possibly repeatedly. You don’t need to chase men, but you do need to let them know that you’re interested in being chased by them.
Aurora says
Great response Karl. She definitely needs to learn how other men think. Taking some risk will increase the possibilities of getting what you want in any aspect of life.
Kris says
Wow. Truly mind boggling. Tray, get thee to a psychotherapist. It seems to me that the only type of man that would tolerate this kind of behavior from a woman is exactly the kind that would, “cheat,” or, in other words, not take you seriously! You actually think men talk about wanting a family to get in your pants? Girl, it is not 1956; men actually don’t need to summon the ghost of Ward Cleaver to get some play. It sounds to me like you have really serious issues, and could use some professional monitoring and guidance.
Kris
PS
I’ve NEVER had a man, woman or anyone but my Dentist’s Receptionist call and confirm an appointment. If they say they are going to be there, and you are not, YOU stood THEM up. Way to go! Maybe men your age don’t chase you because they see through your exhausting game.
Nissa says
Amen to that! If I’ve made a date on Tuesday that I will be somewhere on Saturday, that’s where I will be. I’ve had guys text to ‘make sure it’s still on’ and it always comes across as insecure to me. If I wasn’t coming, I would have said so. No contact means the previous agreement still holds.
Barb says
Evan! Touche! Great response!
Selena says
Re: Kris #8
You’ve really NEVER had anyone but your dental receptionist call you to confirm an appointment? How odd. I’ve never done on-line dating, but I’ve done plenty of off-line dating over the decades and it was standard practice to call and confirm a date was still on, if it was made a couple/few days in advance. If I made a date on Tuesday with someone for Saturday, I’d wonder if I didn’t hear from them later in the week to confirm it was still a go. Always just seemed like good manners to me.
Selena says
Tray,
I have to wonder if the problem is that you’ve yet to find anyone who really interests YOU. You say despite your very casual, player-esq attitude you take with the guys you go out with, ALL of them continue to call you. So it would appear they are interested enough to date you. So why aren’t you dating?
Maybe you have some kind of psychological issue going on here, but could it be you just haven’t met anyone you’ve really *sparked* with yet? I wonder if you really fell for someone if all your little ‘protective’ games would go out the window. The way it looks from here, you just haven’t been interested in any of these guys yourself to actually want to date them.
Lance says
Sister, you’re 36, single, and not that hot. Let’s keep it real here for two seconds.
Tray is what I call a female player, ie a chick who plays the game like a dude who has some game. The problem is, she’s playing on the dark side. And the deeper problem is she’s using her game to mask deeper problems, and those deeper problems are that she’s insecure, unsure of her identity, and frankly doesn’t quite love herself. Here’s the tip off in her email: “I feel like they have to basically kiss my ass until I become fully aware, because now I feel as though I am somehow rejecting them before they have a chance.”
No one is going to kiss your ass that’s worth keeping, so you better get used to not having your ass kissed by quality guys. Those are the guys you want to connect with. If a quality guy shows interest, be prepared to return the interest and fully commit yourself to the interaction. That’s truly living in the moment.
Also, you might want to actually date a player. Those are the guys who can counter your chick game effectively. They’ll also call you out on your BS, which you need. Send me an email (and pics) if you want to talk to a real man.
kayla says
Boom, there it is! Not delicately put, but sometimes truth hurts.
desi says
OMG!!!!!!!! Your so brutally honest
Kash says
Well said….I have the same mentality and it took me falling for a player to get my act together. It got to the point when I started considering myself a “dog” and I’m a Beautiful, intelligent, independent, Miloto Woman. Is as women need to know our worth before we start to try to “Think like a man”! Not all men are the same. Just some advice.
#StillPlayingInOKC
m says
Lance, the internet is getting stiflingly stale from all the hot air you’re blowing. Stop negging the OP. She’s checkmated way too many like you not to be able to see through you like Lucite.
To the OP — Tray, one of the things that jumped out at me was the same thing that jumped out at Zann: “They’re needy and I’m not.” And this — even allowing for the fact that we women can sometimes be quite stupid about men — about your actual friends, as opposed to your frenemies?
Sounds like it’s not just men you don’t trust — sounds as if you don’t much trust anyone, including yourself.
I don’t know if I’d call it reverse projection, ’cause I’m not licensed, (also, interestingly, you don’t mention mom at all or her relationship with dad — or any other working relationship you observed in those modeling years) but I’d certainly call it something interesting enough to perhaps warrant an attitude adjustment assisted by a professional. Just for some insight. Everyone’s life needs an editor sometimes. And going all the way back to daddy, this looks like it could use some untangling.
I’m sure you’re quite successful financially; spend the bucks for the top of the line (because as to quality in counselors, like quality in men, YMMV).
Best of luck.
m says
Hee. Or, what Andrea said.
Hot Alpha Female says
@ Lance – lmao love the first sentence it cracked me up =) Your humor is wicked.
@ Tray I hear what you are saying too. I mean I’m all about having a kick ass attitude, n now after reading that i think i just need to kick myself.
My dad was a player aswell and he taught me the rules of the games and how he played it. I remember the whole “now there are certain types of guys you are going to be attracted to” speech.
But i think what evan and lance say are right. You are playing the game but the only person that is losing is you.
Sometimes we have to take our head out of our butt and give people a chance.
We have to be patient and empathetic to those that are pursuing us and maybe just maybe you can let a guy in, to see who you really are.
Hot Alpha Female
Lance says
m! Oh goody, my favorite ball buster! Where have you been, it’s been months?
I doubt Tray would be able to game me, because SHE’S NOT THAT HOT. Seriously, I’m trying to throw out a reality check here. Even I’m not as douchebaggy as she sounds in her email. Also, what’s lucite??
Aurora says
Have you seen a picture of her to determine she’s not that hot? Or do you see her as too cocky, calling herself hot and you’d just like to take her down a few notches?
Steve says
Kris, post #8.
I’m not a dentist. If I set a date with a woman or a friend more than 2-3 days in advance I call (or email ) to confirm.
Tray doesn’t need a psychologist. Tray, like every other single person just needs to risk being hurt.
Steve says
Lance, post #13.
You got a smart observation there that the kind of guys who will keep coming after being repeatedly pushed away are not the kind of guys a person wants to be in a relationship with.
I don’t think you have enough information for the psychological diagnosis you made or the judgment that Tray isn’t hot.
Marc says
As much as I’m a fan of Evan’s advice, I think Tray’s issues go WAY beyond the scope of dating, and emailing a therapist might better serve her. Either that, or she should start spending lots of time in the self-help section at Barnes and Noble. Right now, I’d put her in the “too many issues to date” category, as would many other guys. The ones that are chasing her, regardless of her game playing, are just as screwed up as her. The good guys she doesn’t yet believe she deserves to be with simply won’t put up with her current behavior.
Once her daddy and major insecurities issues are dealt with, she can get back out there, date like a mature adult, and find a mature adult who’ll appreciate her for the cool, relaxed chick that exists somewhere underneath all the walls she’s put up for various reasons.
Michael Ejercito says
The first sentence answers the second.
Cilla says
I’ve got ten years on Tray, but have more than a little bit of the acerbic in me, too. What I have discovered fairly recently is that it never hurts to be wise to the ways of the players, but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. By that I mean I subtly let the players know I’m on to them, and I will keep them on their toes in a fun, flirty way. I have a quick wit, and I make an effort to use it to let men know they can’t take advantage of me, but I may still enjoy their company, or even a booty call–it’s just more of a level playing field.
I’m not looking for a lifetime relationship right now, so it’s easier for me to play the field and have fun because there’s less at stake. If I discover the love of my life in what starts out as a casual relationship, great. If not, my expectations aren’t crushed. I’m pretty forthright about telling men where they stand with me, without revealing too much about who else I might be currently seeing, and I make myself open to getting the same information from them. If after that, I get the impression a guy is still feeding me lines and is completely disingenuous (vs. a little unsure or private), I cut him loose.
And I try to remember that some men are perpetual players, but some men are just playing until they find a keeper. I started a relationship with a much younger man recently, who was pretty open about being a total player, one of those always-looking-for-greener-pastures guys. I just let him play that out, with the basic attitude that if he thought he could find someone better than me, go ahead. I continued to date other men, while maintaining a relationship with him. I think you could call it playing it cool, but not playing it cold. Last night he told me he’s not interested in dating other women right now, and he wants to see me exclusively. Not a guarantee, but he told me he was taking down his profile on the dating site through which we met. Only time will tell if his intentions are true, but it’s a good place to start. By dating other men, it gave me chance to realize that I am more attracted to this guy, and seeing him exclusively wouldn’t be such a bad thing–and I’m sure it made me seem less needy and clingy in his eyes = more attractive. But I didn’t have to bust his balls to get him to this place–I just opened the door for him to find his way there. That’s probably the biggest dating lesson I’ve learned in a long time.
One more thing. Tray, you say you understand men well, but you expect them to call to confirm dates, etc. I think this is completely unrealistic. I would either assume the date is on, once plans are made, or call myself to confirm if I was having any doubts. You could also downplay it by sending a quick text (which is more realistic for guys than the phone, unfortunately)–something like: “Remind me again was it 7:00 or 7:30 when we’re meeting?” or “Looking forward to our dinner–call me if you hit traffic. ” etc.
Evan Marc Katz says
Cilla,
That’s about the best advice I’ve ever read from a reader on this blog. I wouldn’t change one word. Be careful about being so wise – you might put me out of a job…
Thanks for sharing.
EMK
Internet Dating Tips says
Whoa! Are you serious? Why in the world would a man not call you after a night of great sex? I have to say, I am very sexually liberated and I sleep with a guy on the first date if I like him. Why wait? It happens so rarely that I meet someone whom I am instantly attracted to; I totally go for it. Do I expect him to call and follow up? Do I have an agenda? Absolutely NOT. But they always call back. Actually, every one of my what was meant to be one night stands have turned into a long-term relationships with the man always asking me for committment. In fact, my relationship with my current boyfriend who asked me to move in with him after only six weeks of dating, started with me asking him to have a one night stand with me the very night we met for a blind Internet date. And he is not some creep who can’t get laid. When we go out, girls ogle at him everywhere. To my knowledge he had a few booty calls at the time we met, but never once slept or went out with anyone else since the first time we met.
It makes me cringe when I hear “never sleep with a man on the first date”. Why not?? If a man likes you, he is not going to like you less because of that. In fact, he will like you even more.
matt fore says
I don’t know why men do thatI would call you back and buy you flowers and take you out to a beautiful dinnerI think a woman should be treated like a queen and that is the way I treat my women
twinkle says
Matt, it is good to treat a woman with respect and affection, but too much too soon is not a good idea for various reasons. Since u brought me the word ‘queen’, let me show a little comparison between 2 guys I know. I recently started chatting to a guy who really wants to date me and he already keeps calling me his princess and wanting to shower me with everything blah blah, and it’s too much and too soon, it freaks me out a little!
I’ve been dating another guy who is Really great to me, he’s a macho guy yet a sweetheart, but he has a policy of “not dating princesses”, lol, as in, he refuses to date girls who are stuck up and entitled. I feel much more attraction and respect to this guy. Just some advice to guys, treating women well will work, but there are impt boundaries to watch out for. (Same for women–treat men well but have boundaries).
hunter says
internet dating tips,
…I agree with you, I won’t call if she shows no enthusiasm in bed…any sex is better than nothing, yet, some women make it excruciating…and, I am not exaggerating…
cinnamon says
Cilla,
Whatever works for you is fine.
Just to add a different perspective to the discussion. Personally I do not make a distinction between dating someone casually and dating someone exclusively for me it’s dating someone.
As a woman, I do not find men who date several women at a time attractive. Quite opposite, if I found out a man I’m dating is dating other woman (women) as well, I would lose interest in him immediately, no matter other factors.
I also believe that there are men who do not find it attractive if a woman dates several men at a time. So I’m really not sure if this is the best advice to Tray.
It appears to me that she is looking for a long term-relationship and wants to protect herself from players (I fully understand this). As you write, with your attitude you have actually attracted a player but you don’t mind that, since you don’t care anyway if it works out or not. Yours and Tray’s are two very different situations in my eyes.
cinnamon says
sorry, it was supposed to be “if I found out a man I was dating…” and so on – 2nd conditional all way long
Cilla says
Cinnamon,
I understand your perspective. I was a serial monogamist, too, for a long time, but I discovered that it didn’t work for me because for most men, this wasn’t realistic. And that’s the point of this blog: to give realistic dating advice, not to validate what’s not really working for us. If it IS working for you, great, keep doing it. For me, I needed to realize that most men date multiple woman simultaneously, at least before they settle down and commit to one. Doing the same thing on my part keeps me from putting all my eggs in one basket too early in the relationship, and I’ve not received any negative feedback from the men I’ve dated. In fact they seem relieved that I’m not looking for “the one” right from the first date. Demanding that a man is not dating anyone else from your first meeting? Good luck. I think most men would run from that as an ultimatum too early in the relationship or simply lie and tell you what you want to hear. If you do find a guy who can satisfy that requirement, great, but I think you’re seriously limiting your dating pool.
As far as attracting a player is concerned, my point was to state that some men choose to take themselves out of the player mode when they find the right person. If the man I’m seeing returns to his playing ways, so be it–there’s nothing I can do about it. The same free will that allows him to decide he wants to see me exclusively allows him to leave that relationship if it’s not what he wants. I think the fact that I feel this way makes me more attractive to my guy–it’s the old “if you want something, let it go free” adage. That was part of my point to Tray. I think she needs to relax a little and let the guys arrive at their own decisions (or convince her they are not players), and she can facilitate that by giving them a little more wiggle room.
I didn’t know for sure the man I’m seeing was a player until I got to know him a little. By then, I knew I was already attracted to him, and I wanted to see what else he could bring to the table. The same combination of things that attracted me to him (intensity, good looks, sensuality, wit, interesting background, etc.) is what also lets him be a player–he has the complete package that most women want. He is young, unattached, and played the field because, as Evan often reminds us, he could. I can’t help who I’m attracted to any more than the next person. But if he says he wants to try an exclusive relationship, I am willing to believe that until have a reason not to. If I’m looking for that complete package, why would I not try it when it’s offered to me? To assume that once a player, always a player is to doom the relationship from the start. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve dumped players whom I knew continued to lie to me, but if I think someone is being genuine, I listen to my intuition and let things work from there.
As a final point, please don’t confuse my idea of casual dating with casual sex. Dating to me means going out for coffee, drinks, dinner, a movie, an event, hanging out, and kissing if the mutual desire is there. There is no sex involved. Once I bed down with someone, I don’t continue going on these dates with other men, and I don’t entertain the idea of sleeping with other men. I ask that my partner do the same (usually this seems to be a mutual agreement). So, yes, I suppose once I start sleeping with someone I am a serial monogamist, but not until then. If I sleep with someone who claims to be monogamous and then discover he is still playing the field, we have a discussion. That for me is time when an ultimatum may be appropriate.
I hope that clears up my perspective. Good luck in your dating life!
cinnamon says
Thanks Cilla, that explains a lot 🙂 Especially the last paragraph.
Kris says
Nope. I don’t think (especially) with men I don’t even know that they have ever confirmed. We set a date, time and place, and keep it. My gosh I certainly wouldn’t blow someone off if they didn’t make that call. To me, “good manners” is not standing up your date.
With people who are already in my world, I would say if they are very busy (like some of my single mom friends) odds are against hearing from them at all until we meet. With others that have more time, they might call just to chat, and it might *also* come up in conversation that we are still planning to get together, but I really can’t think of an example of anyone calling specifically to confirm, except, as I mentioned, the Dentist. Hmmm…and maybe work commitments checking in to make sure I’m booked with them, but nope, not brand new dates.
It actually sounds intimidating to me–to hold this expectation on a date. One more thing they had better get right! Maybe if a person needs that, they should either tell their date, or they should be the one to call and confirm.
Kris
Not Jerry says
I agree with Kris. If I make a date my word is my bond. Count on it.
I have known people who think it’s necessary to verify and maybe re-verify an appointment, and I have actually been stood up a couple times by people like that when I didn’t call to re-verify. It was strange.
So I dunno what to say about those whose life is so uncertain they cannot make a date for Saturday and keep it without reinforcement, but I know they exist.
Cilla says
EMK,
Meant to tell you: thanks for the nice words. Rest assured, your job is safe for the time being. It’s so nice, though, when you have a moment of clarity and the events in your life line up with your desires and philosophies. I guess being an old soul has some merits.
Cilla
Victoria says
I enjoyed reading this post and the comments – a little late on mine though: I wanted to say that good manners and inner culture have to be present in a guy for a good girl to notice him. If you say you are going to call on a certain day and then don’t – I delete your number, you made your own bed and I already lost my interest, it simply shows you could care less OR are too insecure and none of this is attractive to me. Everything is OK with Tray, she just hasn’t found a guy yet who first of all respects himself, who has CLASS and GOOD MANNERS, who is a brave and solid person.
suzie says
Victoria I completely agree with your level headed approach to dating.
Tray, I feel you are right in saying there are a lot of players out there. I am at this site because I have, too, run into several myself. It seems men want to be "nice" to woman (I am 52) and "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" have sex and be friends. I have yet to meet the marriageable man. They all want something more. Youth, hard body, more fun, bad girl, good girl, etc. and so on. I also have many male friends who were boyfriends at one time. Trouble with players is they have such a convincing game, you fall for them and find out they were just playing. Somehow I feel this is very psychotic behavior as why do men feel this is necessary. A woman will get close or she won't. I feel this may be what Tray is referring to. When you are a realist and playing for keeps, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to get your prince.
hunter says
suzie,
I was amused at your statement, “I have many male friends who were boyfriends at one time”….we do like to stick around…..you might “slip up”….
Karl R says
suzie said: (#29)
"I have yet to meet the marriageable man. They all want something more. Youth, hard body, more fun, bad girl, good girl, etc. and so on."
Does that necessarily make them players? Let's say a man date (or has short-term relationships) with 10 women in 5 months. He dates an 11th woman, settles down with her and gets married. Was he a player? Or was he just quickly concluding that the first 10 weren't the right one for him?
The fact that they wanted "something more" (especially if that something wasn't entirely superficial) suggests that some of those men wanted a more serious relationship … with someone different.
ReeceKB says
I agree with Tray. Most men are liars and cheaters. They say what they think a woman wants to hear to get what they want which is money or sex. I am 32 years old and I am curvy as well. I never had any guy that did not lie to me and tell me that I was the one, they loved me and wanted a family with me after dating for a while. My last relationship ended abruptly when I got pregnant. mine you this was a shock as he alsway talked about starting a family with me and getting married. Once he finally got me pregnant, all of a sudden, he was not emotionally and financially ready for a baby wiht me. He wanted to keep building a relationship me as long as I agreed to abort the baby. I decided to keep the baby and now I’m going through prenatal alone.
Tray is right to protect herself and I wish I had been smart like her.
Christina says
It is just that you should be able to differentiate between a Player and nice guy, this is were you lack..
okaythen... says
Not to be offensive or anything, but Tray really needs to reevaluate her approach to dating. I understand that she may feel frustrated about not having found someone, but the tone of her letter reeks of arrogance. This is clearly illustrated in the way she regards her friends as “needy” and she – clearly – is not.
As well, she constantly puts the blame on her date instead of reflecting on her own behaviour. For example, not showing up when they do not confirm. In my opinion, it is only really necessary to confirm if the date was planned well in advance of the actual day or, if some new information has come up.
According to her, the entire male population – be they young, old, the same age – seem to think she is so cool and all will come running back to her if she blows them off. I’m sorry, but I really think that the reason Tray is NOT in a relationship is because she is just so full of herself.
Try being a bit more humble and less crazy… it might work out a bit better.
NotSureAboutThis says
This is a great article. I’d like to just add one thing–that many women who consider themselves sexy often aim for a man that they consider sexy. The problem is that such men are attractive to other women as well. A man generally considered to be sexy will be propositioned by many women in his lifetime. It is virtually impossible for him to say no to every single woman. So, I think there is a reason who Tray preempts any possibility of a relationship with attractive men because 90% of sexy men are unable to be faithful. I think many women will agree with me on this. We can keep scouring for that 10% but it’s really an uphill battle when every straight woman is looking for the same guy–the sexy stud who doesn’t stray.
Aurora says
Do you always judge every book by its cover? Doesn’t a woman deserve to find a permanent mate that she looks forward to having sex with? Your comment does not help her in the least, but only reaffirms her defensive mindset.
Youre basically saying that it’s ok for someone she would find not so attractive choose her for her attractiveness while she needs to settle for him, just to have A partner rather than THE RIGHT partner.
janie says
Your right, I agree that a good looking man is easy to find, but why does it have to be so hard to keep him? Does really think they will always want him when he is in the best shape he can be in for now. What ever happen to make feel that he had the upper hand? The fact that other women can’t respect the fact HE is with someone and do come on to him right in front of you. Aren’t we enableing them with our attuitde as well? I wonder what they would do if we as women were to ban together, and act as if they had a rep. ( like they, like to label us when we are seeing more than one man we are just playing their game).
Bill says
Janie – That women is called a whore. Men want to have fun with you but they wont ever want to date your or have a relationship. Everyone of his friends will know your a whore because he will tell everyone.
Realistically the okay to ugly women in our society chase after these good looking men for validation. From my experience the bigger and less attractive the women are the more sexual partners they have. Most of these women have slept with many traditionally good looking men because most men if they drink enough will sleep with anything. And traditionally good looking men have higher testosterone.
Also having a very attractive mate 80%+ of the time it is for validation. To show our friends your worth something in our society.
Karl R says
janie said: (#35)
“other women can’t respect the fact HE is with someone and do come on to him right in front of you.”
Bill said: (#36)
“That women is called a whore.”
These women may be more brazen then usual, but they are otherwise average. A recent study showed that single women will see the same man as more attractive solely because they believe he is taken (in a committed relationship, in the case of the study). Men did not view women who were in a relationship as being more or less attractive than single women.
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/do-single-women-seek-attached-men/
The women’s complaint that “all the good ones are taken,” becomes true … because the same men are seen as “good” when they are taken. Unless you’re different from most women, you unconsciously do the same thing.
janie said: (#35)
“I wonder what [good looking men] would do if we as women were to ban together, and act as if they had a rep.”
There’s no way that you’ll get women to work together on this. (Feel free to try if you think I’m wrong.) However, there is something you can do to limit men’s ability to engage in this behavior. If you stop dating the most attractive men, and instead date average-looking men with good character, you’ll eliminate the attractve men’s ability to do this to you.
JerseyGirl says
Bill, It’s funny that you were real quick to find a name to call women. But yet I see not one disrespectful name toward men.
You’re whole posts reeks of a mentality that you pretty much think men are better then women.
Foxx says
I studied men and seldom think like a man and act like a lady but I think I just met my match and I didn’t even see it coming.
I met this guy through a mutual friend who contacted me on FB. It was a genuine meeting. We talked for 8hrs and I had to call off from work the next day. There was great chemistry and we were fond of each other. i was skeptical cos’ its long distance but he was chasing me so hard that I thought ok Ill give it a try. He started saying “He loved me from the first week” Thought he was moving too fast but went with the flow since this is what Ive been wishing for all last yr. We talked for a month and he flew me over and we had sex the next day. Nothing changed. As a matter of fact we didnt have to discuss our relationship status cos’ he started calling me his wifey and told his friends Im his girlfriend. Told me and his mother who he is close to that im the one and he’s marrying me.
Well after a while Im losing my mind. Im in love. Cant stop thinking about him. Want him to call me everyday but he wasnt doing it. Happens to be a very busy guy.
After giving so much thought and talking to him about communication gap he tells me “He doesnt want to lose me. He is 37 and he has not accomplished everything he wants at that age and begged me to be patient that everything he is doing is for OUR FUTURE”
Well back in those days if a guy wasnt giving me all the attention, I tend to circular date and talk and flirt with other guys. I don’t know why I can’t do this with him. He is so nice and sincere. I heard from a friend he is getting ready to propose to me soon and his mom loves me. This is what I want but I question if I can be happy. My way of dealing with emotionally unavailable men is dating other guys even if there is no sex, it takes my mind away from being so needy for his attention. However because of how much i have fallen for him and respect my commitment, I cant do this. What do I do? He is a keeper, dont want to lose him and dont want to play games. Just don’t understand how he chased me so hard and I was in control to how I am now the one craving the attention. I want to fall un-in love (if that’s a word) cos’ I hate how it feels now. I want to harden my heart. When I do this he notices the change in attitude and sk “why Im talking like someone that doesnt love him” He just doesnt get it does he. Im in love and yearning for equal attention and want to step being vulnerable by walking away and dettaching myself emotionally but he is not helping. If he cant help me from feeling this way, then I seriously need to help myself. It hurts so bad cos’ I thought the same way he waas chasing me ws the same way he will be once I gave my heart to him. Damn LOVE could be ugly sometimes.
Foxx says
This is Foxx again—
Posted on this link because of the player issue. Well I forgot to add that while my boyfriend appeared to be soft cos’ of the chase in the earlier stage after a while from his fb page and other things, its clear to me that Im dating a changed used to be player guy. He definitely has game and a lasie men. He is a busy business man that travels and swears up and down he is not doing anything out there. All I want is for him to be more romantic and call me more often but he cant do that. SO it leaves negative thoughts to come to mind even though I trust him.
I believe people change and he loves me and wants to really marry me. He doesn’t hide that he had had his share of women in his past time so I appreciate his openness and honesty. My friends tells me the communication gap is as a result of him not used to dealing with emotions while he was a player and it would take time before he gets around to treating me the way I want to feel. I jsut dont know if I have the patience. I want to feel the love from him all the time not just when we are around each other. Long distance is not easy at all and the old me would have stepped out and cheted on him with this missing emotional connection i feel while he is not around.
Denise says
#39 & 40
First off, I would seriously bet that neither one of you are ‘in love’. You’re ‘in lust’, ‘in infactuation’, but in love? Probably not. It’s that human phenomenon of wanting what we can’t have, projecting what we think the other person is really about, but not having a clue about the reality. Lacking PATIENCE shows a lack of maturity (I know that can be a difficult word to hear, not sure what other word is most appropriate here. Mature men don’t commit easily either, and certainly not after one telephone conversation! Patience can be difficult, I can identify with that!) We attract those of like maturity.
Long distance is very difficult to create a relationship. The only time that really counts in your ‘relationship’ is the time you are spending in person. If you’ve only spent 3 days in person, then you’ve had 3 dates.
Your concept of circular dating is excellent! Has this player man asked you to be exclusive? To not date anyone else? If not, then keeping your options open is the smart thing to do.
YOU cannot make this man do anything. You can explain to him that you’d like to start to get to know him better and would really like him to call more often, but that’s it. If he’s so in love and he can’t CALL you, I don’t understand how he’s supposed to feel compelled to do all the other things a devoted man in love would do.
I think you know this situation is crazy, so not really sure if you’re looking for someone to tell you to give up your life to wait for a man whose actions don’t match his words? To waste the precious commodity of time on an imaginerary relationship?
If I were you, I would spend a lot of time on this blog, taking a look at other questions/comments. Then go out and get some books on men, women and relationships to help yourself grow to be the best woman you can be, so when the RIGHT man walks into your life, you’re ready.
Karl R says
Foxx said: (#39)
“He just doesnt get it does he.”
There is a problem (and you recognize that), but you don’t seem to understand what the problem is.
There are 4 or 5 different ways people show that they care: verbally, time & attention, physical affection, giving gifts, and possibly one other (I forget). While all of these are important, each person has their own opinion about which is most important. It’s a personal thing. For me, physical affection is most important. I show how much I care by hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc. That is also the form that is easiest for me to recognize. When my girlfriend snuggles up next to me during a movie, I know she cares.
Your boyfriend expresses himself verbally. He wants you to know how much he loves you, so he tells you. And if you aren’t doing the same, he picks up on it immediately.
You express yourself through time and attention. You love your boyfriend, so you want to spend lots of time with him and focus your attention on him. If he’s not spending time and attention on you every day, it feels like he doesn’t care.
This is effortless when two partners share the same preference. When I have an overwhelming need to let my girlfriend know how much I love her, I’ll walk over and give her a big hug and kiss. Since her preference is also for physical affection, she gets the message clearly.
When your boyfriend has an overwhelming need to let you know that he loves you, he tells you. Since you want time & attention, his words don’t mean very much to you.
Similarly, when you have that overwhelming urge, you try to spend time and attention on your boyfriend. While he probably thinks that’s nice, it’s not as meaningful as when you tell him that you love him.
Foxx said: (#39)
“What do I do?”
Stop trying to pull away, withhold affection, or “un-love” him. He loves you, and he is trying to be completely loving toward you. He’s not playing games. You have been.
Explain to him what I just explained to you. In order to overcome this issue, you both need to understand it.
And you both will need to work to accommodate each other. He instinctively shows that he cares by telling you. In addition, he needs to consciously and deliberately spend time and focus attention on you. (It will have to be conscious and deliberate, because he is incapable of spending enough time and attention instinctively).
You don’t get off the hook either. In addition to spending time and attention on him, you will also need to consciously and deliberately tell him that you love him and how much he means to you. You will need to do so frequently and extravagantly (and that might seem ridiculous to you, because you’re also incapable of saying you care often enough and extravagantly enough instinctively).
And this is extremely difficult because it requires persistent effort by both of you. It’s really easy for one person to slack off. If he spends lots of time and attention on you, you feel like he loves you. And if you’re spending lots of time and attention on him, it feels like you’re reciprocating sufficiently … well … it feels that way to you. But unless you keep telling him how much you love him, you won’t be reciprocating equally.
It’s a hard problem to overcome, and it’s deceptively easy to backslide. If you two can’t accomplish this, you have only one other option: break up.
Foxx says
@ #41 Yes we have agreed on exclusivity and he is actually extremely jealous so neither one is allowed to keep our options open. We have been talking about marriage so I feel like its wrong for me to go out and see other people. I’m currently living on the promises that things will change soon as he gets some things done with his business. But also there is the fear of what IF he gets used to me dealing with him this way and things dont change.
@ #42 Thanks for seeing that he relly does love me. I have never doubted that he didn’t. The understanding how to accomodate each other is an ongoing process. Maybe I want it to change right away and I’m beating myself up about it because of the inconsistency. My parents are the sme way and have been married for over 32 yrs. Mom is affectionate and loves attention but dad communicates through telling her but not showing it everyday like she wants it. I see through it all and knows that he loves her even though he has never lived up to all her expectations.
Me and my boyfriend have talked about it and he told me “I know you want attention, Im gonna give it to you that you will get tired of me, just have patience with me and get things done and you will not regret” Those are his exact words. So I can wait for things to get better but fear it may not but Im just trying to trust him that things will get better. Also keep in mind, I met him when not as an established relaxed business man. I met him when he is currently at his lowest finance wise. He is a manly man that wants to do so much for me that he is out making that money. I just want him to realize i am not materialistic and i need my emotions being taken care of than the shopping sprees and what not. Also want to add that when we are together, I dont feel this way. All attention is on me. But I need it more when we are apart and thats wht he is incapble of doing for me now. So I’m waiting but don’t wanna wait in vail. Thanks for your comments.
Denise says
#43
is actually extremely jealous
Yikes, for ME, that would be a big red flag.
agreed on exclusivity
Then right, you can’t actually date other men. You can talk with other men and interact according to how comfortable you are, but you’re in an exclusive relationship which you agreed to. He says he’s not seeing any women while he’s traveling on business, you have to trust that’s the case.
How long has this ‘relationship’ been going on? How many times have you actually been in the physical presence of each other? How much does he call/connect with you? You said what he says in regard to ‘loving’ you, what does he DO to show you he loves you? What actions does he take?
Foxx says
The relationship has only been 5 mths. We started exactly Aug 1st.
Before he left for overses in Novemer, we flew bck and forth every two weeks. Of which he spent 2 wks with me before. I normally stay from Thursday until Monday.
I call him more than he does. And have long conversation depending on how busy he is. When I first had the communication convo with him, he called me everydy then it stopped. Considering he is overseas, I have made more calls than he has. He comes back next week.
To show how he loves me, first he says it all the time, tell all his friends how wonderful I am, im the second girl he has introduced to his mom according to her and he is a mama’s boy, when i’m at his place, he cooks for me, we dine out and love the movies, he loves to have bedroom chat before we go to sleep which seldom consist of how how relationship is going and what we think of how future so far which of course communication issues surfaces ut he reminds me that he is trying. He never lets me carry anything heavy, he picks up my luggages and haul it for me, He hates that he cannot spend as much as he has spent on past flings on me becuase he is currently low on funds than normal. He is not ashamed to brag about me to everyone around. he calls to talk to my parents sometimes, he advices me and listens attentively when Im telling him about my day to day issues at the job and passionately hates anyone messing with me but gives me good advice….Wow this was therapeutical for me listing all these things. I never even knew he does this much. Ive been so fixated on negatives not realizing all these positives. hmm
What action does he take? He is the first person that stops everything he is doing when I call him and tell him Im feeling some type of way. He is quick to say” Do you want to talk about it” That really makes me feel comfortable saying anything to him. Honestly this love had made me act somewhat crazy with some of my questioning and in the past men have left me alone with me acting like that but he totally understands and gets me.
KimO says
Reading all the comments I can’t help but note the anger in some of them. Its a little off-putting but bottom line, if everyone was nicer and more honest to and with each other, there wouldn’t be animosity in an arena where we all want the same thing. To connect in a disconnected world.
To Tray, you scare me, sorry but you do. I’m a woman who is often more “man-like” because I work and support a family among other characteristics and needs that put women in a place that often doesn’t have much room for femininity. However, being abrasive never has a place anywhere. None of us are mind-readers and maybe letting ‘the other’ make the decision rather than you making the decision for both of you would open a few more doors. You are being chased because you are playing hard to get. Shoe would be on the other foot certainly if you chased them. Being “cool” can be closer to cold than “kewl”. but being kewl can be a smoke screen. Just be you. don’t judge men on how your father behaved, unless you are looking for a father.
I like to think all men are different, just as all women are different. We’ve all had bumps and bruises if we’ve lived outside of our homes. (with no disrespect to people who have been abused, but this is not the venue for that.) when we lighten up on ourselves, we can take ourselves more lightly and are more approachable. Male or female bashing is too often the norm but is really only that person’s opinion, which doesn’t make it correct.
I am single and have been. I don’t date much at all, but human nature calls me to be me, be honest and stay open to outcome. Sure I’ve made some decisions that didn’t pan out. I’ve run back to my cave to lick my wounds, then venture forth and try to not make the same mistake rather than repeating it. Big question: What do we honestly want? Freedom from relationships or connection….to be advocates in our own lives or victims. We get to make that decision.
starthrower68 says
KimO, I agree with you that the anger is off-putting and I’ve had to work on this myself. All we can do is behave with integrity and if the other person can’t LEAVE HIM. There’s no need for victimhood, though I admit if you really come to care for someone, you can get hurt. I would submit that where the anger comes from is staying in a situation that is not good for us rather than just getting out of it and moving on.
Kate Candy says
ReeseKb (#31)
I’m very sorry that you have to go through prenatal alone. I am sorry that your guy misled you. Although you want to think he’s a jerk, it really really could be that he wanted to have a baby, but when you got pregnant, he freaked. This happens. You have a right to be angry and hurt, but don’t let this color your view of men. As someone mentioned here, four men could be players and the fifth a good guy. In my experience, things are never as cut and dried as one guys a player and the other guy isn’t. Keep the lines of communication open with your baby’s dad. Perhaps you can send him a neutral e-mail telling him that the door is open if he wants information about your pregnancy’s progress. Although this man might not be a future partner, he is your child’s father and, however hard it is, maybe having some sort of connection is better in the long run? But, again, I’m sorry for your loss.
Ray says
I’d say I’m somewhere in between Cilla and Tray. My dad was never a ‘player’, but I work in an all male field and know their junk pretty well.
I’ve eliminated men from further consideration like Tray has if they appear to be dating for ‘sport’. I also don’t believe that men really know what they want either… and the blah blah blah that goes on in early conversations is just that. I know what to look for to see if they can back up their words with actions.
I do have a sense of humor about this, like Cilla, but what I DON’T do is waste my time with men who are seeing other women at any level. All that tells a guy is you are ok with them sleeping around and you will be there when he gets done ‘playing’… Sorry, get done playing first… then see me. I don’t have time for that immature BS.
If a guy is into you, and is not a commitment phobe or player, he will looking for opportunities to get to know you better ASAP. I personally don’t need to be dating lots of other men to maintain my detachment. I have a life that I enjoy. If, on any given day, I’d rather take a guitar lesson than spend it with that guy, that’s what I do. And yea, I cherish my male friends. They are true friends. Human beings… who have given me alot of insight into the male mind and heart.
Michael says
@ Tray:
No matter how much you think that you think like a man, you’ll never measure up. Be a woman. Think like a woman. You’ll attract more men that way.
And, if you agree to meet a man, but he doesn’t confirm the day of, and you decide, “Oh well, we’re not on I guess”, and no-show him, then the man is well within his rights to dismiss you as a flake. I personally NEVER confirm the day of. If you agree to meet up with me at ____ at ____ pm, I expect you to be there. If I get there and you don’t show up, then I’m gonna play you–expect to receive a text from me on the following day , apologizing for my missing the date.
Michele says
Thanks for this one- very useful! It’s the first time I’ve heard of the ‘I want a family’ speech. Is that some mechanism guys use to get women into bed?
larry G says
When i was reading Tray’s story i was looking for a case of beer to assist me in reading her story . Seriously she is an over thinker – extremely insecure – and someone who is a P.I.T.A.
What normal caring man would want to put up with this drama queen.
She does not see this / blinders
She needs a complete overhaul – more than a tune up , to get her head straighten out. Understand yourself now.
If she works at it their is hope.
The best to Tray.
Miffy says
I knew I was onto a keeper when I met a guy who just told the truth, eg, “I may not ever want to get married, and I may or may not want children, it’s something that can change with time.” Lucky for me I don’t want either of those things and I told him and he was great about it. I guess being upfront and honest about exactly what you want from the start is great. I’ve heard the whole ‘I want a family and marriage,’ from so many guys who definitely don’t mean it, they just tell you what you want to hear, so when someone takes a risk and tells you the truth about what they want, it’s actually rather nice and you know you’re onto a good thing.
Paragon says
I think its pretty obvious that the letter writer has become maladapted to *anything* other than casual sex over the years, from too much time spent in the FWB zone.
Which can only happen if she’s *overestimating* her value(ie her attractiveness) with respect to the men she considers mate worthy.
What many women fail to understand(or reconcile), is that the attractive men they desire are already a scarce resource
courtesy of female selectivity(ie. because women are so picky, there simply isn’t enough attractive men to satisfy demands for exclusivity, except for all but the most attractive women).
And since this is exacerbated by the fact that males *lower* their standards for casual sex(which women do *not* do), many women are under the false impression that they can justify a long term investment from any man they can attract for casual sex.
So, it’s a pretty safe bet that if a woman is never progressing beyond hook-ups with attractive men, they’re probably setting the bar a little too high.
Obviously, people are going to have limited control over the traits they find sexually attractive(or repulsive), and there’s
nothing pathological with desiring the best.
But, there is something very wrong with indulging unjustified expectations(which, to the letter writer’s credit, is not what she is doing).
Ultimately, this is a problem that has only two likely solutions – either learn to ‘settle'(lower your standards and consider
males who are more likely to stick around, because they know they can’t do any better), or learn to reconcile the FWB zone(which sounds she is close to accomplishing).
Anna says
I guess you have learnt from Dad what players are like and what games are like.
You are scared of being hurt like me and blocking them out.
I guess by blocking them out and cutting off early you are cutting every guy out and Evan is right not all guys are players. Maybe you have attracted player types as you were used to it and seen it with dad.
Counseling would be good.
None of us want to get hurt but its about the balance of giving guys a chance and then making a decision about them later. We need t give them some room to lay out their cards and take for face value what they are saying. After a while or soon enough if they are playing games it will come out and whether you want to play or leave will be obvious.
If you are angry at men that is another reason.
Lovable says
I had a so called player playing around with me the whole spring.My heart was closed , He did not reach into my heart.He often said I had to “open up ” but I did not get what he meant.I just kept on joking,being funny,being friendly,always come when he asked me too.Until one evening we were watching a movie and I just sat there,in his living room,serious,quiet,said a few words from my heart.I felt stupid,I felt like a looser.And then,next day,he came with his arms out trying to hug me and called me “my love”.I did not understand ANything!!!But somewhere I understanded deep inside that this doing nothing had showed myself,my true self,to him.Well,he was not my man anyway,I rejected him,and two weeks later he met his girlfriend,I did some stupid things and I got my lifes biggest lesson in love so far.And then another man showed up,a great good man who had tried to reach me a year ago when I rejected him…I realized he is the man I truly want,the player was not a player but he was the opposite of what I really want,a man with more feminine energies,I saw the picture;I have always been the guy in my relatinships,doing things,being intellectual and acting too much.And never let love in only men who wants me to serve them,like he wanted.I call them players but deep inside I never really wanted them and they disappeared,of course.Men are not stupid,they disappear when they dont get what they want EVEN if that is something you dont even wAnt to give them!I love men,but I let the men come to me whovweren’t the men I need so that they could break my heart!Clever!
Lovable says
Hi.I read your latest email and I want to answer it here.
I think you are right.You dont want to talk about marriage and children and other serious stuff on you first date.But you want to have some kind of clue that this is a type of man you are looking for.But maybe you know it.Or not.You can actually ask other type of questions to get to know about him.And normally you hear pretty quickly if he has children,is divorced,have lot of friends etc,and you can get a clue of what type of man he is.
And maybe you know it ,because you heard about it from someone.
But there is another reason I really do not want to hear all about his future wishes.Theyre only wishes!You can have plans for the future and imagine what you want,but how the hell do you know?
Like me,for example.How did I know when I was 20 that when I was 38 I was going to struggle a lot.I be a lonely mother after meeting this guy who broke me down,my mother became a very hard woman to deal with and her husband has a very bad temper,I could not ever get satisfied with the education i chose,with the work I had after that,with the town I lived in,the next town too.My child was a very energic one who made me a tired lonely mom.I had no strength,no self confidence,no home ver who made me happy.
If you look at me I am a smart,artistic,beautiful woman and noone ever thought I eould have anything but succes in my life.I thought Id have at least four children,live in a great house by the sea and eork exactly with what i love most.So where is the point?i dont feel sorry for myself.But if I go on a first date today and meet a man in my situation,maybe I ll understand him!Maybe I know that you can be good anyway,if you meet the right person.And if he tells me he wants to get married and have more children,I would not think oh then he is my man.Because how can I know.Maybe I cant have more children.Maybe I dont want to get married again because we both did without success.Maybe I am emotionally avaliable to him even if I was afraid of most of the guys I met before.(I actually know because I know a guy I really feel connected to and he is the only man I ever met that i am totally not afraid of)He has been very kind to me many times and showed what a great man he is,but I let him go because I wasnt ready for him.He was too good for me I somehow thought then.Or I did not think at all.But if he came back today,when I have been working with myself for one year forgiving my past,highten my selfesteem a lot and am satisfied with my work etc,I would be with open arms,saying yes to him.One year ago I seriously thought my life was over and I did these CRAZY choices I cannot dream of doing to day.All the time!If I look at me then today,I was a crazy woman noone would ever choose.And today I think I am worthy of that good man!
Do you get my point?The future can never be assured.On a first date,or maybe second,I want to have some kind of clue about if this guy is good at heart.But even that is impossible to know before there is some kind of challenge.
Yes,on a first date,I only want to be there and have some great time.And hopefully a good laugh,too.
The future?Depends much on our choices,and they got to be good ones
antipodes says
Tray – the reason you aren’t finding a guy who doesn’t light up your bs meter is because the guys you have met are all full of bs. This is par for the course. Most guys (people) are full of bs. The reason other people get into relationships anyway is that they let their dreamy delusions carry their brains off somewhere so they can enjoy the feeling of what it might be like to be in a ‘real’ relationship. Rest assured, they will break up, cry about it, end up in child support court, move on to the next. Is this what you want? If not, keep using that trusty gut that has served you well.
People will tell you that you need to be like this or that or the other to find love and be in a loving relationship. Some of it is true but is predicated on the idea that the person you are with is ALSO interested in said love/relationship and not in a temporary/superficial type way. If/when they are not, all this “letting down walls” etc is entirely misplaced, not useful, and not smart. How do you tell if you’ve found an appropriate person? The same way you’ve been doing so far. Your unfortunate experience with your father has actually left you with some very good smarts that it will take others decades to attain. Don’t drop them just because some other person told you you need to be different (ie stupid like them, or more available for manipulation).
You are right, if a guy is truly into you, he WILL call when he says he will, WILL confirm dates, WILL show it in actions more than in words. The same as you would do for a guy that you are truly into. That’s how it works. So keep looking for that. Sorry to say, though, don’t hold your breath. Like I said, most (people) are full of bs and just looking for the next thing to boost their fragile ego. Somebody “open” with their “walls down” is much more easily used for that than somebody looking for evidence of a real relationship, or someone who sees them as and will treat them as a real person.
blackcatmagic says
antipodes, you show a great deal of wisdom. Many people are manipulative users and will say anything to get what they want from you. I have found being open, vulnerable, and trusting a man’s words to be dangerous. EMK says that men don’t have to lie to get sex – maybe so, but to get a high quality woman to sleep with them or give them money, men will lie all day long.
Case in point: the last man who asked me to marry him turned out to be married already. I thought he was the love of my life, but this man lied about his marital status and his finances. He kept pressuring me to let him move in with me, since we were “getting married soon”. Something did not feel right and further investigation turned up the fact he was married and had declared bankruptcy twice.
I believe this man was looking for free room and board, access to bank accounts, credit cards, etc. Needless to say, my walls are firmly up and I doubt that I will ever believe another man who says he loves me or says he wants to marry me.
Mickey says
Men are dogs.
Men are players.
Men are only after one thing.
Why can’t I get one?
Really??? She’s got to be kidding!!!
Blueberrie says
hmm I actually tend to agree with Tray here. I do a lot of the same stuff as her although I have softened a little in the last year or so.
I have been TOTALLY burned by players on an emotional level but I guard the rest of myself (finances, body, friends and family) like crazy.
What’s helped me most is figuring out what my boundaries are, thinking before I act and at least giving the guy a shot. Mostly I’ve ended up with a lot of friends lol! which is great actually, I know who to call when I need advice on something or help with something. And I must say a lot of those guys have a lot of respect for me, treat me very well NOW that we are friends. a couple of them even proposed. so I think it’s more about relating to a guy as another human being, seeing that ok maybe he’s a dog, maybe just trying to get into your pants… try and relate to him like another human with feelings rather than letting him see you as a sex pot or thinking that he sees you as that… play his little game but also tease him about it.
I am currently trying to get a guy into an exclusive arrangement but I’ve left the door open for him to walk away as well… he’s half in and half out. but I put my cards on the table and I know that he respects me and cares about me and so I know there’s a part of him that wishes he could just get away with just having sex but another part that might want a lot more. I’m just giving him the breathing room to decide this… meanwhile, I have probably 10 other guys chasing me down lol so I’m not freaking out over whether he’s into it or not. I would like it, I hope he wants it too but there are tons of other guys out there if he says no and most likely i’ll always have him as a friend, a guy i can call day or night if i ever need help, advice, etc etc. i would love to believe that it’s all a about fairytales and happily ever after but really that’s just not reality and i just pray i make wise decisions in the men I chose to get involved with. that’s the most I hope for.
Rochelle says
re: Kris 8’s post
For me, it depends on how “firm” the original plan was. If a man and I decide on a day to get together for something and he says the day “sounds good”, yet no time/place is set in that conversation or during a later one, I assume it isn’t on anymore, unless I hear from him again. I stopped following up with guys like that to see if it’s still a go when it was his idea. Because doing in that, they may say yes in some occasions, cancel, not respond, or take a really long time to get back to me. Then it will make me wonder if they are really interested.
The better way is to see if I hear from him. When I do nothing with some of these guys who didn’t set a time, the day comes to pass and I never hear from him again. This has happened a few times, where a guy and I will agree on a day but then no time was ever chosen. (Or they try to call at the last minute)
Magdalena says
Tray, you go girl! I don’t really see what your problem is. You’re doing fine. When you find one that doesn’t bore the hell out of you, you’ll let him stick around for a while. Men bore you easily. You’re not alone – they can be so predictable. That alone is such a bore. I won’t mention other things. Anyway, keep playing. You’ll stop when you find one worth stopping for…even if it’s only for a bit.
LadyBird says
Tray, I admire you!!
Someone once said: Ignorance is bliss. I’ve had the exact same problem and even wished that like so many girls out there I was oblivious to all that goes on because at least that way I could actually have something that lasts longer. When I read thru a guy’s bullshit right away and just move on and blow him off, it’s done. While some girls who just don’t get it stay and have long-term relationships because in their minds everything is fine. I am talking about women accepting when guys tell them they only want sex and women stick around anyways hoping for more. The same when a guy runs strategy on you while he has a girlfriend, and the expectation that you should still stick around. Guys saying they want to date lots of women but wanting to keep you at hand as a booty call. Guys cheating but thinking women will stick around anyways. All that BS that goes on that women put up, you know… Hats down to you Tray for smelling it right away.
I’ve read lots of men game/strategy books and forums, I’ve had lots of skillful players as friends; from a very early age since my teens and in my early 20s I made sure I stay close to guys, figure out how they hunt, how they talk and how they play strategy, so that I learn and protect myself effectively. Sometimes I just wished I couldn’t figure it all out. I swear 90% of the women out there who are clueless have an easier time — you can’t get depressed by what you don’t know.
LadyBird says
Folks, I think what Tray means by “confirming a date” is not that they have set up a date (3pm Sat there and there) and she awaits a double confirmation or otherwise stands up the guy, but that the guy says “let’s go out for coffee on Saturday” and then doesn’t specify. Her point is: I won’t chase you if you won’t even put the effort into that.
Judging from the rest of the comments, I think that most people suggesting psychological counseling are going too far because they simply aren’t a hot woman who had to deal with all kind of gaming. To lots of people the situations she is describing don’t raise a red flag because they didn’t have to deal with that i.e. men testing to see how much they can get away with/if they can get you angry and see if you care.
A lot of the advice seems to suggest: Tray, open up, you need to accept some BS at first and then see where things go. Her position is fair I think: she just doesn’t want to deal with you if you have dished out BS at first. She moves on. Nothing wrong with that.
Jeannette Namkung says
Hi Tray,
I too had a Dad who was a player. I made me aware of “the signs”. When we are focussed on rattng them out, we might miss the opportunity to get to know a good man. As Carl Jung so wisely said: “What you resist persists”. Relax about it. Wait and see. Let them reveal themselves over time. Trust your instinct, intuition and inspiration. Having sex on the first date does not necessarily mean that it will exclude a long term committed relationship. All case by case.
JoeK says
“men my age are threatened”
Oi vey, the narcissim practically drips off this woman. She needs to read “Why Men Don’t Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women”. Men her age aren’t “threatened”, they’re bored of women like her.
Let her continue on her merry way dating like an angry teenager, while real players play her anger, fear and insecurity into one night stands for their benefit, while she continues to tell herself it’s what she wanted all along. And the “beta guys” she blows off are actually better off looking elsewhere.
Oh, and saying “36 and curvy”? We can all read through that BS as her trying to whitewash what she looks like. After all, what does how she looks have to do with anything, other than her ego justifying her attitude towards men?
Oh, such a laughable character…Mickey said it best:
Men are dogs.
Men are players.
Men are only after one thing.
Why can’t I get one?
hahahahahahah
Ray says
Most of the women nowadays are the biggest Players when it comes to dating men, and they’re the ones that can really hurt a man’s feelings especially if he is interested in her.
kayla says
what you forgot to tell Trey is most men will come back for meaninless no stings attached sex. Even bad sex. It’s like offering a kid candy, there is no big mystery there girlfriend. You don’t have some special pull, it’s called being easy. Sorry for being so frank, but it is what it is.
Someone said it’s hard to find a marriageable man. Blame lack of parenting in most cases, and then turn around and blame us women. How a father treats his wife/woman is showing a son how you should treat women in the future. And what mothers will put up with from her husband/man is telling her son that this is how women will let you treat them. Same holds true for daughters. Then most women allow men to bed them before marriage, allow disrespect, or forgive unacceptabe behavior …. Even take care of men to the point where the male/ female roles become blurred. This makes men think that if these women do it, they all will. No one can do any more to you than you let them. If we stop allowing the bad behavior and disrespecting ourselves, men well stop acting like useless sperm doners.
KG says
Maybe she could try a lesbian relationship. If she’s got those kind of problems dating men, she can’t open up to men, maybe she’d be better off trying being with a woman out. I’m a guy recommending this BTW
Gerald says
Im alot like you, My mother and father both grew up in the sixties and they both throughout my life have played one another, It makes it really hard for a guy when doesn’t follow the so called rules that other men before have set. so often at times women won’t give me a chance because of this, its not because im ugly or have a small you no what, on the contrary im very good looking and attractive but i send out signals to women that i have a small you know what by not having the jerky attitude that guys who pick up chicks often do, i have to admit i do look like that sort of guy, the player type but im not, a very big problem because i end up with lets just call them questionable women out of respect for my mother the kind of women who don’t care what kind of guy they sleep with, the problem is those type of women just aren’t right for me because im just not the sleep around sort of guy, Im the nice charming guy that women are always staring at and flirting with but i just can’t seam to get the girls like you to give me a chance, even though they like me they just won’t but there slutty friend will, so again thats who i end up with, like you i get upset when they don’t call me and rush in to fast but then when i don’t, they feel like i don’t care but thats not true because if i didn’t, i wouldn’t of slept with them in the first place, it sounds so crazy but it is really hard to figure them out, admittedly i jump right in the sack with them but im lonely and horny so its really hard to turn a chick down when they want it, they will get it,if i make them wait they end up tearing my clothes off, which is good in the heat of the moment, the biggest problem is getting them to see me, i mean the real me, they seam to look right past who i really am and make up this guy im not and when they find out im not the guy they think i am it really devastates them, then i’ve inadvertently created a woman who loathes me for no good reason, then i move to the next hoping that shes the one who will see me, i understand where your coming from even though our problems are on different sides of the field, i think what you need to find is a man who is patient and understanding first, then be intimate with him and tell him how you feel about certain things, explain to him how your mind works and if hes right for you, he will understand, you just need a man thats going to see the real you and not run from it and stop dating the type of guys your dating because they will never make you happy
Gerald says
If there is a problem with the phone, then the heck with the phone just go on over to his house and leave the phone out of the equation, he might be doing something he shouldn’t be doing over there and then again he might not, stop letting the phone call thing get in the way, i love it when chicks chase me
Jay says
The very sad thing is that many of these women are such losers in the first place since they like to play games with many of us good men really looking for a relationship since many of us are certainly nothing like them at all which most of us don’t play games. Women just don’t like good men anymore these days and are always going for the bad boy type of men which makes them very pathetic as well. Most of these women should get a cat for a pet to keep them company since that is the only thing that they will ever have unfortunately since many women today are very picky when it comes to having a relationship.
Merle says
You need more social experiences with men good and bad, and you are not allowing those important experiences to help you develop the right sort of judgement you need to attract the right person for you. Your judgement of men in general is poor and you need to improve it by taking each man on their individual merit.