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A Romeo and Juliet story for the 2000’s… Isn’t it remarkable that something like COBRA can keep two people from tying the knot?
My girlfriend who is very understanding but torn over this, as she doesn’t want me walking around without insurance (she doesn’t have a spousal plan), but understandably wants me to file for divorce, commit to her (I know I already am; I love her dearly) and wants to marry me. We don’t plan to have kids upon marriage. This whole thing has been a sore subject between us. I don’t like it anymore than she does but it’s MY reality. We live in complicated and tough times and getting sick or having an accident can bankrupt you. It’s in the news all the time. There are people out there who stay legally married for kids and money, even taxes but live under different roofs and different lives.
My question is: Should we not focus on the piece of paper of marriage (I’m not belittling marriage) and focus on our own commitment to each other, and go live our lives OR serve her fears and file divorce? I know she REALLY wants to get married and I don’t want to disappoint. But… So until my ex gets married, if ever she does someday, I have amazing insurance (and an amazing lady). I know how she feels but sometimes you’ve got to be practical and real. I wonder what your readers think about this, and what would they do.
Thanks! Steven
A Romeo and Juliet story for the 2000’s…Isn’t it remarkable that something like COBRA can keep two people from tying the knot? Harrumph! If you don’t think that health care needed reforming, tell it to Steven here….But I don’t want to get into a political rant today (I do so enough with my wife). Your question, Steven, is a good one, because it’s not really about health insurance at all. As I see it, it’s about trust. It’s about reality. It’s about compromise. In short, it’s about the very things that make a relationship successful or unsuccessful. I think we can all agree that trust is the underpinning of every relationship, and that there are perfectly valid reasons why we might not be trusting of a partner. Sometimes it has to actually do with the partner’s behavior … extreme flirtatiousness, emotional distance, unwillingness to discuss a future. And sometimes it has NOTHING to do with the partner at all … the mistrust is placed in the failures of past relationships. So if one person cheated on you, you’re wary of your new partner doing the same. If one person disappeared after six months, you’ll do everything in your power to protect yourself from it happening again. The problem is that trying to ‘protect yourself’ is the ANTITHESIS of what a good, solid, stable relationship is about. True love allows you to let go and be weak and know that your partner will support you, through thick and thin. Your girlfriend, Steven, doesn’t actually believe that you will support her unconditionally without a wedding to lock you in for life. And, without more information, I’m inclined to think it has more to do with her past than with anything that you’ve actually done to make her insecure.
…if she’s putting her need for a ring and a marriage license above your need for affordable health insurance, I think you might have a bigger issue on your hands than an unhappy girlfriend…
I can validate her fears … no woman wants to risk a man leaving – but if she’s putting her need for a ring and a marriage license above your need for affordable health insurance, I think you might have a bigger issue on your hands than an unhappy girlfriend: you have a selfish girlfriend who thinks that her needs are more important than your needs. Successful relationships are about making compromises based on what’s most important and what’s possible. It’s impossible for you to get your own affordable health care with your pre-existing condition. Unless Obamacare takes care of you, or your girlfriend is willing to subsidize your medical costs, it seems that everything else stems from that unfortunate reality. All you can do is give your girlfriend the reassurance that you’re in it for the long haul, and if she doesn’t let up, assess whether you truly want someone who isn’t sensitive to your needs.
E. Foley - Geek's Dream Girl says
Evan’s spot on here (as usual!). Your need for affordable health insurance is a concrete need. Your physical health could (and probably will) suffer if you can’t afford everything you need for your health care.
Her need for a marriage paper is really a WANT. Your relationship isn’t going to change because you have the paper. It’ll just settle the insecurity gnawing inside her. That insecurity may kill the relationship, but it won’t kill her.
Kenley says
I think if a woman had written in with this question, your answer might have been different…. Hey, Evan, I’m dating this great guy. I love him and he loves me. Here’s the catch. He’s married and won’t divorce his wife until she gets married because he is on her awesome medical insurance policy. What should I do? For some reason, when the question comes from that side, it doesn’t seem so obvious that the girlfriend is an insecure and selfish woman who doesn’t know how to compromise in a relationship.
Perhaps the issue isn’t just that he won’t marry her, but that he won’t divorce his wife. Yes, I know, insurance. But isn’t that really just an excuse? This guy has said that he won’t divorce his wife until SHE wants to marry someone else, and she isn’t even dating anyone. So, in the meantime, his girlfriend is supposed to hang around waiting for a MARRIED man to wait until he ex wife is ready to remarry BEFORE he will marry her. Really? Really? How long exactly is his girlfriend supposed to patiently wait — a year, 5 years, 10 years?
Why wouldn’t a solution be for him to get a job where he can get insurance or perhaps she could try to find a job that would also provide insurance for spouses? Is the only thing she can do — and be a good little girlfriend — is wait?
In my world, a married man regardless of the reason he is married is a married man, and as such, he in NOT fully committed to you no matter what he says.
Debra says
I totally agree!
Daniela says
Totally agree
Renee says
Absolutely agree. Been living in this same nightmare for 2 years…and I don’t want to get married…I simply want the person I am with not to be married….maybe it’s too much to ask.
sayanta says
I don’t know- I’m kind of torn here- I do like Evan’s response- but that one line Kenley mentioned about them finding new jobs, etc. is a pretty obvious one. I don’t know- I honestly don’t understand anyone going for a married man regardless of the circumstances, so I can’t really say anything here.
Jennifer says
I guess if you agreed with the premise that the main point of getting married is to ‘quiet insecurities’, this advice would be perfect. But i don’t agree with that premise.
As has been said before, people do what they want to do. If he wanted to find a way around this insurance issue he would (ie, deal with paying more than $7 for a teeth cleaning). If she wanted to lessen the importance of him being divorced and them being married she would. I don’t see how she is anymore ‘selfish’ than he is.
He’s conceded that if/when his wife remarries, they’ll have to divorce and he’ll have to deal with the insurance issue then, so its not like it’s something he would never ever do. His girlfriend is just not important enough to him for him to make that call now…sounds like she may be correct if she is thinking he isn’t 100% committed to their relationship.
I’m not saying that either side is inherently wrong here. Just that I don’t see how she is being more selfish than he is.
Isabel says
Yes I agree. I mean what happens if his EX got remarried? He’s still gonna lose the current wonderful insurance and he still needs to deal with the issue? Why not now?
And if his currently girlfriend waits for him, how long is too long?
If this man would never lose this health insurance, then I think it’s a very complicated issue. But asking the GF to wait for him indefinitely is unfair.
Christine says
I’m with Kenley on this one. I also think Evan’s answer is a little bit short-sighted. This situation conceivable could go on indefinitely. What about all the other things that go along with marriage — the right to visit someone in the hospital, the right to make decisions about their medical care, the right to inheritance, etc. If something were to happen to the boyfriend here, his girlfriend — his true partner — would have very few rights. What if she did accept this situation and they bought a house together and built a life together and ten years down the line he got in a car accident and was on life support. There are complicated legal implications to this decision beyond what is immediately apparent. I think the girlfriend is understandably concerned.
Also marriage is sacred to some people. The girlfriend has never been married — if she feels so strongly about marriage, I don’t think it’s “selfish” of her to want that with the man she loves.
Kenley says
Evan,
You have often said that a woman needs to judge a man by what he does and not what he says. Yet, other than this guy saying he loves his girlfriend, he provided no evidence that he has actually DONE anything to make her feel loved and secure. So, if he isn’t going to divorce his wife, what can he DO to show her that he is in it for the long haul? What I think he can do, is let her go — and not because she’s selfish, but because he realizes that he is not ready for marriage or for a real commitment to anyone at this time. How do we know he’s not ready? Because he won’t divorce his wife.
david says
I disagree with Jennifer — it’s much bigger than the $7 cleaning — note the part where he said he had an outpatient procedure and it cost in the neighborhood of 10K-13K (approx.) — a few of those a year (or even worse) could bankrupt this guy.
And the cries of ‘get a better job’? He’s FORTY-NINE — do you know what the job market looks like for a guy who’s almost 50? And he’s going to land a job with decent health insurance (which is harder and harder to find) — and if he gets laid off for any reason — he’s totally up a creek…
Karl R says
Evan,
I’m going to have to disagree with your perspective on this one.
Steven needs health insurance. Steven WANTS to pay less for his health insurance than he does for his cable.
And if Steven is willing to let go of that want, I’d bet there are lots of solutions that will allow him to get married. He could get a job with health benefits. His girlfriend could get a job that includes spouses.
People change jobs for their spouses all the time (and move across the country too). It’s a fairly normal compromise within a marriage. It’s not unreasonable for Steven to do the same.
But it will require some sacrifice on his part. Which brings up the question: How badly does Steven want to marry his girlfriend?
Honey says
I am flabbergasted by the folks taking the girlfriend’s “side” in this. As David says, he’s 49 and currently self-employed – not likely to be a competitive applicant for a “regular” job in an economy where over 11 million people are on unemployment benefits. The fact that he’s waiting for his (ex)wife to divorce him to me only means he is lucky to be on good enough terms with her that he can have his $10K+ procedures. He explains this was a routine outpatient checkup, what happens if his condition worsens? Plus, he is already 49 and is only going to get older – the odds of his condition worsening and/or developing additional chronic conditions requiring treatment are high. He is generous enough to never stand in the way of his (ex)wife’s happiness if she wanted to pursue marriage with someone else. To me that makes him pretty awesome.
I do agree with the commenter who pointed out that there are other aspects to a marriage like visitation rights and etc., but there have to be ways that can be handled. I don’t think the housing argument is a good one because I think buying a house is a terrible financial decision no one should make.
I will also say that I think 14 months is ridiculously soon to be thinking about marriage. My boyfriend and I have been together 4 years, and it’s going to be 2 more years before we get married (actually we set our wedding date for 6 years to the day from when we first met). She’s in her mid 40s now, what’s the rush? And it’s not like any of this is news to her – she’s known about the (ex)wife and his health conditions this entire time. Yet he says this issue is a “sore spot” between them, which implies that they’ve had numerous conversations about it.
Between that and the fact that she’s not ever been married before, suggests not that marriage is incredibly important and sacred to her, but that she suffers from the type of insecurity that will only worsen/increase if they get married, rather than the opposite. Of course I have no way of knowing that for sure, since I don’t know either of them, but there’s at least as much evidence (I think more) pointing to my conclusion as there is to the one so many of the commenters above seem to have come to.
Isabel says
So what happens if Steven’s ex got laid off from her current job? What happens when his ex got remarried and Steven still loses the health insurance? What does he do then??
JuJu says
Why is an official marriage even necessary? Especially for people of that age?
No, I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask Steven to find another job – he said he is self-employed, he might very well be doing what he always dreamed of doing, and finding regular work might be a bit too much of a sacrifice.
Doctor K says
I had two friends, gay, that couldn’t be married and were together for 19 years. I say “had” because one passed on of a heart attack unexpectedly. The surviving partner had to get permission from the deceased partner’s brother just to take care of the body the way the deceased had wanted. The deceased partner and his brother had not even spoken to each other in decades. Luckily, the brother permitted the arrangements to be carried out according to the deceased partner’s wishes.
The point is, yes, there are practical reasons such as above that two people who have a “real” relationship choose to marry. It is not just a piece of paper. Moreover, in addition to the above, it also sets up issues of pension and finances and who this goes to. This is not just a “greedy” issue but one that a surviving partner should be concerned about when two people are setting up a home together. I believe we have all seen family members that have fought over such issues (sadly) but can you imagine a long-term partner that really has no say?
I saw this with my own father. My parents were divorced and he was living with his long-term girlfriend in a home they bought together. When the GF passed on, her daughter (with whom the GF didn’t even have a good relationship) got a lawyer and my father had to buy out the daughter just to continue to live in his own home.
Aside from the “unsexy” financial issues – it is MORE than a piece of paper. It is a commitment between two people that tell each other and the world what they have together and the intention of this commitment.
And as some other commenters said, yup, married is married and from personal experience – a man with whom I was living and DID have divorce papers filed still kicked me to the curb when his wife had a financial concern (of benefit to her) and threatened him. Money talks and he walked. You have NO security with a married man, Evan, I’m sorry, no matter what he says, it takes a lot to trust in that situation that you’re not going to be the one that gets screwed in more ways than one.
Amy says
Gotta love living in Canada – One less thing dating wise to worry about! 🙂
Selena says
Male or female I don’t think it’s selfish at all to Not want to spend the rest of your life with someone who is married to someone else. This guy can only bank on having cheap health insurance as long as his wife allows it. How secure is that?
Here’s a scenario: Girlfriend gets tired of being “the other woman” and moves on to find a single guy (with or without health insurance). Soon after, wife meets the man of her dreams and can’t sign the divorce papers fast enough. Steven is without beloved girlfriend AND health insurance.
Steven would be served best by investigating what he can do for himself regarding health care. The wife could pull the health insurance at any time – and what would Steven do if she lost her job, or quit it?
This isn’t about the girlfriend’s insecurities; it’s about a man using a situation to his advantage for as long as he can.
Isabel says
totally agree!
Evan Marc Katz says
I appreciate all the respectful dissent. I’m still not moving on this one, though. The suggestion that he should find a new career in order to marry her is not a test that a man should have to take. I can only imagine my wife telling me to get a new job that I might like less, in order to pay more for health insurance, just so I could marry her. Really? Do I get a punch in the stomach with that, too?
I’m pretty sure that, despite the valid advantages to marriage (in terms of taxes and visitation rights), these are not the motivating factors in why she feels so strongly about marriage.
Let’s call a spade a spade: she wants to lock him in so he couldn’t possibly flee. That’s the undercurrent to the dissenters’ comments: fear. Can’t trust men. He’s gonna disappoint you. He’s still married. Red alert, red alert!
Read the guy’s letter again. He loves his girlfriend. He’s got a precondition that could bankrupt him under conventional health insurance. For her to tell him to force an unnecessary and expensive divorce so that she can lock him in only makes sense to ONE party – her.
She has the right to leave him, to see if he values her more than his health insurance, as Karl pointed out. But while she think she may be issuing a smart ultimatum, I think she’s creating a false one. She’s going to break up with a guy who really loves her but is bound by his health issues. And for what? The piece of paper that prevents him from breaking up with her.
If she loves him, she should stay with him. Unless she’d be happier searching for a better boyfriend who is in the position to marry her. Her current boyfriend, sadly, is not.
Selena says
I have to wonder what Steven told her when they first started dating. Did he make it clear to her that he would never file for divorce because of health insurance? If so, then she knew what she was getting into. If he didn’t???
Jane says
How can you know that she wants to marry him because of some grinding insecurity? She hasn’t been married before— maybe this is her big statement of love.
Maybe she wants a man who is not dependent on his wife. Maybe she wants a man who is not dependent and who can manage the exigencies of his own life and is looking for him to show that.
His assessment of what it would cost for him to have his own insurance doesn’t exactly ring true in my experience of health care. And, if a minor surgery cost that much, it doesn’t sound to me like it was actually minor. I am wondering if there is more to the story of the pre-existig condition. Something isn’t adding up here…. It would be sooooo interesting to know what happens in this scenario of Obamacare didi provide for him—- wonder if it would make an ounce of difference.
Tanya says
Perhaps it’s been her lifelong dream to be married (it states in the letter that she never has been), but I still think she should focus on what’s important at the moment: their love for eachother and the fact that they are together. Since, hopefully, this should be a non-issue soon with Obamacare.
Honey says
@ Selena, #13 – I don’t think the security of his current health care is really the issue here. He’s acknowledged that he would have to pursue other options if she no longer wanted to provide that benefit to him for any reason, and he’s acknowledged that he’s willing to do so. And eventually she’s going to retire and they’ll both probably be on Medicare. But that doesn’t mean that he should immediately and definitely shoulder tens of thousands of dollars worth of medical costs of his own volition. Who does that? If I know the milk in my fridge is going to go bad in 5 days, I don’t throw it away. I drink it within 5 days (well, not me, I’m lactose intolerant, but you get the drift…)
@Jane, #16 – I don’t know that she wants to marry him because she’s insecure. None of us do. But it’s just as plausible that she is deeply insecure (and, say, was close to marriage numerous times but it never ended up panning out because she always drove the guy away at the last minute with a ridiculous demand that would bankrupt him and/or ruin his health) than that she thinks marriage is sacred or the ultimate declaration of her love.
If they wanted kids, it’d be one thing – but they don’t. I would rather be with a guy dependent on his ex-wife’s insurance than a guy who would go into massive, un-payoff-able debt. That wouldn’t make him independent, it would make him totally dependent on his new wife and so wouldn’t prove anything except that they are both idiots.
Ruby says
Honey #9
“I will also say that I think 14 months is ridiculously soon to be thinking about marriage. My boyfriend and I have been together 4 years, and it’s going to be 2 more years before we get married (actually we set our wedding date for 6 years to the day from when we first met). She’s in her mid 40s now, what’s the rush? And it’s not like any of this is news to her she’s known about the (ex)wife and his health conditions this entire time. Yet he says this issue is a sore spot between them, which implies that they’ve had numerous conversations about it. ”
Honey, how old are you? If you were in your mid-40’s, my guess is you’d feel differently. Contemplating marriage after 14 months in middle-age isn’t too soon for many people. I’m around this woman’s age, and I can relate to her feelings of insecurity. At 46, she’s probably dated a lot – and been burned a bit. Maybe she’s dated separated men who swore they were getting divorced and didn’t, or weren’t completely over their marriages. I’m sure that’s what’s prompting so many responses agreeing with her suspicions. Men have been known to make excuses in order to avoid commitment.
OTOH, I understand what it’s like to be self-employed and concerned about health insurance. Has Steven thought about getting a job that WOULD include health insurance? Perhaps self-employment isn’t the right situation for him under the circumstances. Many states have state-run policies that provide coverage for people who don’t qualify for general health insurance, but they are not cheap.
A middle-aged single friend of mine who had cancer was only eligible for a state-run health policy. What did she do? She works a low-paying job she likes, but doesn’t love, because the benefits are terrific. This is a tough situation, but I don’t think it’s a great idea for Steven to be so dependent on a woman that he no longer has a relationship with, sorry.
Honey says
@ Ruby, #19 – So you’re saying it’s okay for her to make her current boyfriend pay up for all her own past dating mistakes? That a clearly devoted guy who is so desperate to keep her in his life he writes a professional for advice should have to make decisions that go against his financial well being and his health in order to be with her? Sheesh.
I’m 30, and I get that might color my views of how long people should be together before marriage. But I also have a pre-existing condition that is significant. Even after 4 years together, if my boyfriend asked me to make a decision that would cause me to lose my current coverage, I’d have to break up with him rather than do that.
Kenley says
Basically, this guy wants to stay married for a financial reason while at the same time having a devoted girlfriend at his side. Why then isn’t any financial reason acceptable for a married man to keep a woman dangling? Why is this one any different? We don’t typically tell a woman that she should wait around for a MARRIED man to divorce his wife when it is FINANCIALLY CONVENIENT for him. I’m just having a hard time understanding why the girlfriend is the bad one in this situation because she doesn’t want to build a life with a man who is married to another woman.
Also, as I asked before, what exactly has this guy done to show this woman that she is safe and secure and that he loves her? If all a guy has to do to show is he is devoted is write a letter to dating expert, that’s setting the bar way too low in my mind.
I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer here, and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind because I’ve learned long ago that most people on this blog rarely change their views. I just know that I would not agree to give my love and devotion to a married man regardless of why he is married.
To me the moral of this story is women (and men) simply should not get involved with married people as it typically leads to heartbreak.
Selena says
Honey,
I do understand why this man might prefer to stay married for health insurance. But I can also understand why a woman wouldn’t want to spend her life being a married man’s “companion”.
This arrangement is certainly practical for Steven, but I agree with the other’s who’ve questioned the wisdom of him being “dependent” on his wife (that’s wife Honey, not ex-wife) in this way. My point was this arrangement with the insurance could come to an end at any time and what will Steven do then? What if his wife died tomorrow?
Also, if I were Steven’s girlfriend I would be curious as to why the wife didn’t want a divorce. What’s in it for her to stay married to Steven?
Robert Lehrer says
Karl R makes great points. There are many different ways to achieve your objective.
First, decide if you REALLY want to get married to your girlfriend. If the answer is truly yes, speak to a qualified insurance broker (not an agent that represents just one company). He or she can probably find solutions to your problem.
My disclaimer: I’m not a skilled relationship therapist, but I’m a damn good insurance broker. If it’s OK with Evan, I’ll give you my contact information and we can speak.
Honey says
I actually don’t think either of them is wrong. I just think his worst-case scenario of crippling health problems and bankrutpcy is worse than her worst-case scenario of having to find a new boyfriend.
If she wanted to leave as a result of his decision, I wouldn’t blame her at all. I just don’t think we can fault him for HIS decision.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Kenley and @Selena
I sympathize with where you’re at, but I’d encourage you to see this through a grey lens instead of a black and white one.
I think it’s incredibly clear from the tone of this man’s email that both he and his wife have moved on. So much so that this he is in a healthy, communicative, serious 14 month relationship with another woman. You keep going back to “he’s MARRIED”. As if he’s cheating on his wife and promising the girlfriend he’s going to leave her, but never following through on the promise. This is simply not true.
The reason he’s still MARRIED isn’t because he’s pining away, hoping to get back with his wife. It’s because he gets very cheap health insurance, which is extremely important for a man with a pre-existing condition. There’s nothing in this email – except for your mistrust of disappearing, non-committal men – to suggest otherwise.
The reason his wife still has him on her plan is also quite simple: because she has an amicable relationship with her ex, and because it costs her nothing to do the right thing. My Mom is separated from her husband and she’s still on his health insurance for the same exact reason. Sometimes with ex’s, there’s no hard feelings. People do the NICE thing from time to time.
So stop reading all this nefariousness into Steven’s motives, ladies. He is bound by his circumstances – not avoiding a commitment. I would say, quite definitively, that if a man fell in love with my Mom, he’d have to simply trust that she’s still married for healthcare, despite the fact that her husband lives in another state and is certainly no threat to the relationship.
This is a TRUST issue. She doesn’t TRUST him. Neither do you. I do. So there.
Kenley says
Evan,
As I indicated in my last post, I’m not trying to change your opinion and you are not going to change mine. Both opinions are based on our individual experiences with life and people. Neither one is right. Neither one is wrong. So there.
Lorianne says
Sorry EMK, you totally missed the boat on this one. As long as we’re talking legalities, riddle me this — what happens to this guy’s long-suffering girlfriend if he gets really sick or dies? Never mind the material issues (which would require a very long response I’m not willing to write), I’m talking about hospital rules and funerals. In a lot of cases, only family are allowed to visit really sick patients. Guess what, girlfriends don’t count. What if the wife decides she doesn’t want the gf in the hospital room for WHATEVER reason? What if she decides the gf isn’t entitled to have a say in the funeral arrangements or even know where the service is taking place. Guess what, girlfriend is SOL.
I get the health insurance issue, but really, this woman is not being “selfish.” If anything, HE is being selfish for not being willing to suck it up and find a health insurance policy. If his pre-existing conditions are not that serious (his description), then he should be able to find someone willing to insure him, maybe with riders attached, but those generally fall away after a number of years. Will it be as cheap as what he has now? No, but it shouldn’t be outrageous, either.
Do I sound like I know what I’m talking about here? I should, because I do. This woman is letting this man put her in a trick bag. Maybe not deliberately on his part, but it is what it is. If he truly loves this woman, if he is truly committed to her, he should be willing to protect HER legally. And if he isn’t then maybe SHE should question the value of this relationship. In her shoes, I sure would.
Selena says
I neither trust, nor mistrust the guy. I can understand why a woman wouldn’t to spend her life with someone who is legally married to someone else. That simple.
That’s her prerogative though. If she ends it with Steven, he will probably go through the same thing with other women until he finds one who doesn’t mind his “marriage of convenience”.
Sooner or later though, Steven will have to start paying for health care on his own. Hopefully he won’t regret the one that got away too much when that happens.
Sofka says
Hmm, I have an awful lot of sympathy for both parties here! But as both sides of the debate already seem to have been summarised in an intelligent and articulate manner I will resist stating my personal feelings on the matter and stick to making one or two practical suggestions.
The first idea I had was for the OP to spend some time with his girlfriend really examining the potential costs of the marriage option. He could sit his girlfriend down and say: “Look, while I have always thought that divorce from my ex-wife and the subsequent loss of my health insurance sounds like a total no go, I do love you with all my heart and am at least committed to fully exploring all the alternative(s)”. He could make it clear that if they do become a married couple, and he loses his health insurance in the process then they will both have to work out how they, together, will meet the costs if the worst comes to the worst. Would his girlfriend be prepared to take on extra hours at her work? Sell off some of her most prized possessions to ensure he is looked after if it came to that? Give up her own financial security to some extent and give up the lifestyle they currently enjoy to potentially spend their old age living in financial hardship, albeit married financial hardship. This might make his girlfriend realise that marriage would potentially mean huge financial sacrifices on both their parts and that there are trust issues involved for the OP too. What happens to him if she walks out on him after he gets a divorce?
Or, in the other scenario, maybe thereare viable financial options that haven’t been explored as of yet? Maybe, when confronted with the reality she may be able to tell her boyfriend just what she might be able to contribute financially to the marriage.
And even looking into all alternatives in a methodical and serious way (phone round all the insurance companies around, get the calculators out) and being seen to do so may held the girlfriend understand that Steven is genuinely serious about them having a future together.
Secondly, I was wondering, are there any viable alternatives to getting married? Ceremonies in which married couples renew their vows seem to have sprung up all over the place over the course of the last 10 years or so, even though there is no legal need or (I presume) advantage in doing so. And prior to the legalisation of gay marriage in many countries and states, same sex couples did find other ways of making their commitment to each other known to the world. Could the OP and his girlfriend hold a celebration for family and friends as a way of showing their loved ones their commitment to each other? They could exchange vows and be married in the eyes of each other and their loved ones?
I know that neither of these options come anywhere near to a perfect solution, but sadly, I don’t think a perfect solution is possible in this case.
Karl R says
Evan said: (#14)
“The suggestion that he should find a new career in order to marry her is not a test that a man should have to take.”
Why not? My little sister and her husband have moved at least 5 times. Each time represented a career opportunity for one of them and a career disruption for the other.
My older sister and her husband each moved once to accommodate each other’s educations. For several years my brother-in-law had to run his business from 200 miles away.
I’ve had two coworkers (one male, one female) recently leave our office to move to the city where their spouses are.
This is a decision that hundreds of thousands of couples make every year. Why is Steven an exception?
It’s not an easy decision. There’s almost certain to be a cost (probably financial) associated with that decision.
As you’ve pointed out before, men are problem-solvers. What I don’t see in Steven’s letter is any attempt to find an alternative solution. Has he looked into the possibility of getting a job with insurance? Has his girlfriend looked into the possibility of getting a job with spousal insurance?
I see a big difference between the following two statements:
“We can’t get married because …”
“We can get married when …”
If Steven starts looking for a solution, I’m willing to bet that his girlfriend will happily assist him with that task. She might even be willing to be the one who changes jobs.
Diana says
What if he married his girlfriend, and they combined what she pays for her policy with what he pays his “ex” wife for his monthly premium (I am assuming he does), so they can buy a private policy that covers them both?
There are companies that will cover pre-existing conditions after a set time frame, like 12 months. Not ideal, but it’s a consideration. If his condition isn’t serious, then maybe have all yearly tests done in advance. If everything’s a go, then get married and purchase the new policy quickly thereafter.
He might be better off reworking his budget, like lowering his cable bill, and along with his new wife’s income, buying a new policy. He would also have someone who loves and cares enough to be there for him, should his health start to decline. Now that’s priceless!
I’m not feeling sorry for this guy though. His pre-existing condition may not have even existed 10 years ago when he could have more easily afforded his own policy. He knew there was the possibility that one of them might marry. What if his wife did want to remarry? He feels safe, since she’s not dating, but he’s taking a big financial risk.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with his girlfriend wanting to marry him, regardless of her reason(s). I don’t sense she has issued him an ultimatum. It’s an important issue they have discussed. He mentions that she is torn and understanding.
I did notice that he doesn’t mention that he, too, wants to be married. That may be the real issue. But why would he want to get married? He has his cake and can eat it, too; his amazing insurance, an enabling so called ex wife on very friendly terms, and his amazing lady. Why rock the boat? But it’s not all about him either. I think he’s afraid he might lose her. So try to do something about it.
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey, I don’t mind being on the minority on this one, and think everyone’s being super civil. However, I don’t think his concern should be, “What happens to my girlfriend of 14 months when I die?” You might think that, but I’ll bet his girlfriend’s not even thinking that. She wants a ring to keep him from leaving her, instead of trusting that if he’s happy, he’s not going anywhere. Why is it so hard to believe that a man would hope to be trusted by his girlfriend and not want to have to get a new career or pay $10K for a medical procedure that would be free under his current coverage.
If we’re still subscribing to logic, Karl, the simplest solution would be to keep things as they are. The complicated – and highly optional – solution would be to get a divorce, find a new job, get new health insurance, pay for considerably more expensive premiums and procedures, and get married…because she’s worried about him leaving or dying.
Just doesn’t sound like an obvious win for our friend, Steven. You’re making it sound like he’s selfish for not opting to do all of the above. Seems to me that, in asking him to make all of those unnecessary changes on her behalf, that she’s the selfish one.
I’m glad that reasonable people can disagree on this, and that you have measured arguments against my point of view. Good stuff.
Off to eat Passover leftovers, practice guitar, and read about real estate. The fun never ends around here…
Diana says
I must say that it’s letters like this and similar others that have convinced me of what I already believed ~ never get involved with a married man, regardless of the situation. I also wondered if the girlfriend was made aware of his insurance situation early on. I suspect not because like most men, he didn’t think beyond the moment into where their relationship might lead.
I don’t see trust issues here. I don’t see any evidence from him that his girlfriend doesn’t trust him or their relationship. And truthfully, getting married wouldn’t make him any more trustworthy. He’s either trustworthy or he’s not. I would hope that she wouldn’t want to marry someone she didn’t trust.
Lorianne says
@EMK I don’t think the changes he would have to make to marry his gf are “unnecessary.” Inconvenient, yes, expensive, yes. But you know what, life is inconvenient. Love is inconvenient. Using the word “unnecessary” is dismissive of his gf’s wishes and needs, and well, selfish.
Plain and simple, it’s clear that this guy has no intention of even trying to find a way to make it financially feasible to marry his gf. Why? Because HE DOESN’T HAVE TO. He doesn’t have to divorce his wife, he doesn’t have to to shop for an alternative health insurance policy, he doesn’t have to marry his gf, so he isn’t going to. If I were his gf, I would have bailed a long time ago.
Selena says
Diana,
Just speculating here (obviously), but I wonder if when she first started dating Steven the fact that he was separated didn’t seem so important. After all, how was she to know where it would lead? Now…after over a year together, and in love, the prospect of a life with a technically married man stretching out indefinetly has hit the hard, reality wall. There is no end of this sight. I can see why she’d be troubled.
Sometimes it takes the hindsight that comes from experience to understand what risky business it is to get involved with someone who isn’t divorced.
Shay says
I agree wholeheartedly with Kenley and Karl R on this. There are ways to work this out, but I don’t see any where that Steven is trying to look for a solution.
As some people here who disagree with EMK’s view, I agree that there are adjustments to life to be made. Its common for people who wants to get together. Sometimes there are big adjustments, sometimes small adjustments.
Has Steven even quantify the insurance amounts? Has he and his gf looked at what are the various job opportunities around them? Has he and his gf sort out what they can save on in their lives to spend on health insurance? Did Steven even ask his gf if she is ok to take a step back in life or help to pay for other bills so he can better afford his own insurance? Can they relocate to somewhere where the cost of living is lower and they can manage their finances better?
What the insurance broker said is true. Go shopping for various insurance policies. Work out with a broker to get cover for what is absolutely necessary and within financial means.
If the gf really wants to be married and truly loves him, there is no reason why she would not want to contribute. I don’t think she is putting him in a predicament. Its a give and take like in all relationships.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Lorianne – So he’s selfish for dismissing her needs, but she’s not selfish for dismissing his?
I think I understand now.
I just think it’s incredible how many compromises he’s expected to make for her, but the one compromise he’s asking her to make is indicative of his selfishness.
I can see her side; can you see his?
Selena says
Re: #37
His side is he would rather stay married than spend more money on health insurance. What’s not to see?
I don’t think that makes him selfish, but it is something that might make him destined to casual relationships.
Lynn says
Evan, I am actually kindof surprised at your response to this one.
If Steven wants to be in a committed relationship with his girlfriend of 14 months, he should divorce his ex wife. The girlfriend is NOT selfish for wanting to get married to Steven. And if that is what the girlfriend really wants, I think she should bail out on Steven if *HE* cannot compromise and meet her half way on this major issue.
Where the girlfriend can compromise in this situation is giving Steven some time to Figure This Out. Yes, his doctor’s visits are most probably going to be more expensive once he gets on his own plan. He may only be able to afford a plan with high deductible. He may have a steep monthly bill to write to the insurance company. He may have to Figure Out how to make more money. He may have to reduce his other living expenses in order to afford this. I say, Figure It Out, Steven.
Lynn says
Also, I agree with Selena’s comment #35 about dating men who are still technically married, or even legally separated. Personally I don’t think that it is ever a good idea, unless maybe both parties agree that it is a casual dating arrangement. In my experience in relationships with men in this category who have said that their marriage was over:
1. one thought that I was The One, but then realized that it was too soon after he split with his ex-wife to commit to another person
2. one was prolonging the magic of the divorce process to stay on the ex-wife’s health insurance
3. one reunited with the ex-wife (still raw from this one)
After bachelor #1, I instituted a “No Dating Separated Men” enactment. Stupidly, I went on to date Bachelor #2 and #3, and here I am, still single.
Ruby says
Honey #20
<<So you’re saying it’s okay for her to make her current boyfriend pay up for all her own past dating mistakes? That a clearly devoted guy who is so desperate to keep her in his life he writes a professional for advice should have to make decisions that go against his financial well being and his health in order to be with her? Sheesh.>>
So her past failed relationships are the result of her “mistakes” that she now wants her current boyfriend to “pay” for? But it’s okay for Steven to allow his marital “mistake” to keep him tethered to a dead relationship and from fully moving on with his life with the woman he claims to love so much? Is it okay as long as it “benefits” HIM?
And how long will this situation go on for? As long as the “ex” stays single? A year, 5 years, 10? When the new health care legislation goes into effect in 2014?
I’m not super marriage-oriented. But we do live in a society that places a high value on it. To say that the girlfriend’s biggest concern is her fear that Steven will “leave or die”, is to ignore the fact that many, if not most, people still place a high symbolic value on the institution. Right or wrong, it’s important to her. She wants to be married, at least eventually.
Steven acts like staying married for the “benefits” is his only option. I’m not saying he should get a “new career”, either. Is it possible for him to do what he does now for an employer? I’d like to see him make a concerted effort to change his situation. Steven is staying married because it’s easiest for him. It’s not his only option.
Christine says
Evan,
I don’t think it’s either he’s selfish or she’s selfish. They’re equally self-interested. They both have valid needs. A good point that many have made is whether they can find some sort of workable solution. If your wife had been similarly situated to Steven, would you have been happy to stay with her without marriage? I’m just curious. I know you want children, which changes things. But I think for many people there’s a true, heartfelt desire to make that ultimate commitment. It doesn’t have to mean you don’t trust your partner. Some people believe marriage is “just a piece of paper” and others believe it signifies something much, much more.
Ruby says
Kenley #2
“a year, 5 years, 10 years?”
I just read your post, where you used the same words I did!
brightsmile says
Evan, I totally disagree with you on this advise. I have been a faithful reader and agreed with you 100% so I had no need to write until now. I could have lived with the advice if you had balanced the issues between these two people. I agreed that Steven’s concern was real and practical. But I am so baffled when you labeled the girlfriend selfish.
I see the issue as Steven wanted to take the easy way out. My ex-husabnd had an affair but he wanted both of us. He offered to stay with me until our youngest child finishing high school (4 years later) so that I could have his insurance coverage. The answer was NO. I got a divorce in 6 months, signed up for COBRA, went back to school to get a master degree, and switched career at mid-40 to get good health benefits-on my own. I went through 16 interviews, got an entry level job that paid less than what I had made 18 years before that. My ex offered extra child support ($200/month) so I could keep our beautiful home but the answer was NO.
Why wouldn’t I accept his offers? Because I wanted to be emotionally healthy and ready for new relationship. When people are still entangled in finance or whatever, they are still married emotionally. Steven’s wife could serve him a divorce tomorrow. He still needs to find a way to get insurance. Why not now? As someone else mentioned earlier, life is full of inconvenience. Deal with it! More often than not, if we are willing to deal with the issue, the problem is a blessing in disguised.
Karl, I love your all your responses, more so with this one because you openly disagreed with Evan.
Steven, are you ready to move on and how much effort are you willing to give in order to make this relationship work? Only you can answer that. Health insurance is only the moot point, after 10 years of separation, and especially with the new health insurance law. Good luck to you.
Zann says
It’s so tempting to get into a political rant about this, but I’ll spare you and instead just say that this is one of many reasons we need universal health care in this country.
I disagree with Evans conclusions, although he makes some very valid points. I agree there are women out there who convince themselves that marriage will “lock him in,” so he can never, ever leave. In fact, this becomes a mission for some women, and can make them act pretty selfish, obsessive, possessive, and just plain psycho. But I don’t think that’s what’s going on here.
I’m a totally practical person and I understand that these days there are a lot of reasons to do whatever works to keep your head above water financially. In spite of that, the bottom line is that this guy’s not available to his new woman, because he’s still married. The reason he’s still legally connected to his wife is, to me, irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that he’s still legally connected. Therefore, his entire relationship with his new woman has been in the context of still being legally married to someone else, and that skews a person’s vision of what is. Sure, he says he loves his girlfriend very much…and he understands how this is important to her….yet he’s not willing to do what’s required to be available to her. This guy likes his comfort, and there’s nothing wrong with that, except that it affects the woman who is available and loves him. I know lots of people who took a substantial financial hit when they divorced, including me. It’s the price you pay for independence and the freedom to move on into a new, hopefully enriching, phase of your life. And many of us didn’t have the option to stay in our marriages, for the sake of health insurance or anything else. And yet we manage, somehow.
He’s connected to his wife because he wants to be, and the fact that his wife is fine with this arrangement speaks volumes to me. She most likely also finds comfort in this remaining connection, as well. I’m not surprised she hasn’t met a new man and moved on. They could stay locked in this comfortable limbo for years.
His girlfriend isn’t selfish, she’s just wants a full commitment, and for her that means getting married. That’s her comfort zone, which she’s entitled to just as much as he is. My advice to him is to fish or cut bait.
And to her: it is what it is.Again, fish (accept what is), or cut bait.
Evan Marc Katz says
Again, reasonable people can agree to disagree. You guys absolutely rock. Thanks for your amazing contributions, as always!
I’m working on some video blogs that I hope to have for you next week. Really juicy stuff – bound to get a lot of comments.
So stay tuned, and stay in the conversation…
G’night.
Evan
JuJu says
In all fairness, Evan, you are committing the same fallacy so many here are – only you are mistrusting the girlfriend’s motives. I think having never been married by age 46, she acts like she has something to prove, but I also think it would be simply foolish to suppose that a marriage will somehow keep your partner with you regardless of his/her desire to stay.
Selena says
Evan,
I’ve always thought you were pro-marriage. Isn’t that usually the end goal of your clients? Isn’t your work devoted to teaching women how to find find love, the kind of relationship that will be sustainable for the long term, hopefully a lifetime? Why are you so adamant to attribute spurious motives to this woman who wants to marry her boyfriend of 14 mos.? So sure she’s “selfish”, uncompromising, operating from fear, “wants to lock him in so he can’t possibly flee”?
I’m not particularly marriage-minded, but even I can understand why a woman in love would want her own husband, not a guy who says he loves her, but wants to stay married to someone else. I don’t think that makes her any of the things you’ve described her.
For someone who promotes marriage, surely you understand for most people it means much more than “just a piece of paper”.
You can call Steven’s current marriage “a shade of grey”. I can call it fraudulent. And the more I think about this, the more obvious it becomes that if Steven’s girlfriend wishes to be married she would be better off with a single, honest man.
Diana says
To Selena #35, very true. There are so many intelligent and amazing suggestions and thoughts posted I hardly know where to begin.
Zann #45 ~ I loved your post! A divorce is typically not only emotionally, but also financially devastating. You learn to deal with your new circumstances and hopefully, you move on. The obstacles you overcome lead to greater things in life that cannot be measured in dollars. I speak from experience.
I wondered what would happen if his wife dated a man who wanted to marry her. Assuming she loved him very much and was 100% committed, as Steven has professed for his girlfriend, would she dance around the issue because she wouldn’t want to create a financial burden for her existing husband over health insurance? What would her new man think? Would he be considered selfish, if he wanted her to dump him from her policy and divorce, so he could marry her?
Hadley Paige says
This is how I see it. 2 reasons to get married (i) gesture of love & statement to the world; (ii) protection. Gesture & statement>> a gesture isn’t worth losing the benefit of many hundreds of dollars a month of health ins savings, unless your rich. (Yes, its unfortunate but true that money solves many relationship problems, this health ins conundrum being a excellent example.)
I raised the issue before of pausing for a moment & engaging in a thought experiment. This might be a good time again. Women: Imagine that the consequence of marriage & divorce was that it was a financial disaster for you if you got divorced. (This is how many guys see it, thus a reluctance to get married) Question: How hot to get married would you be? . . . No need to answer this. Its obvious isn’t it. Suddenly the gesture of love & statement to the world gets way less important.
As a single guy (who incidently, also benefitted from the cheap health ins of the “ex” for a while and enjoys an friendly relationship w her to this day, I can tell you that a woman who I am contemplating being in an LTR with, who doesn’t get this (cheap health ins), is not going to “get” lots of other of my rational financial choices. She will want the gesture rather than the financial benefit (we will have more money for other choices). And to the extent that we are constrained by the realities of finances, this will be a problem & a stress in the relationship (at least if she looks to me for life subsidy).
Thus I will not want to get into a LTR w this person bc this is an early warning sign of different views of money which as we all know is the number one source of arguments in relationships.
Summary, loose the girl & find one who can respect, live with and find peace with your difficult money choices.
Texasdarlin says
I can readily identify with Steven’s concerns about insurance. In late 2007 I became unwillingly self-employed. I worked as a counselor for a foster care agency. All five of us were laid off (in effect) and told we can contract with the agency. I was scared to death because I found out that because of one of my preexisting conditions I can never & I do mean never get an individual health insurance policy. In 2004 I had a stroke & was diagnosed with lupus as well as another autoimmune disorder. The stroke kept me from becoming self insured for 5 years, however the lupus prevents me from ever becoming insured again unless I either find a job that offers group coverage,( almost impossible in my field) or as one rep told me…marry someone who has group coverage.
I was supposed to get a bone density scan last year. I did not because it cost $4,000 & I simply can’t afford it. I’ve finally given up my dream of being a therapist for the rest of my life. Understand it’s my passion and I love working with these kids. But I need to have health insurance and I need a steady paycheck. I’m working on getting my teaching certification so I can start teaching in the fall. I’m forty and I’m single. I can do this. I don’t want to, but I can. It’s probably not so easy for Steven given his age and his field might not lend itself so easily to switching careers.
The issue is not so much about a $7.00 dental cleaning or about paying less for health insurance, y’all. He won’t ever qualify for an individual insurance policy. This is a long term problem. I’ll admit that I would be leery of becoming involved with a man who was still legally married, but I really understand. I struggle every month to pay my bills because I also have to pay for several medications and I have to get blood work done regularly. I can see why some of y’all might disagree with Evan, but take a look it from my side and Steven’s.
Shadowcat says
You can be a counselor for children in schools, I have been teaching for 12 years. I hate it, and am getting my MSW so I can be a social worker/counselor in the same schools I teach in. I gave up a career in Graphic design so I could have a regular salary and health insurance. I don’t think Karl has the kind of health issues you do, or he would have stated them. You made a decision as a grownup to change your career for health/financial reasons., why can’t Karl?
Shadowcat says
Sorry, I thought the Original Poster’s name was Karl!
Shalini says
@ EMK #37
I can see her side.
If you can see her side all you can see is she does not trust Steven and she is selfsih. I know how important a health insurance is and a cheap one at that but you can dismiss a persons wish to get married like this. If you are saying she is being selfish you are NOT seeing her side at all!!!
I think this guy should at least try to find out if there is an insurance that he can opt for that is feasible for him. At least try. If he does not find one he can keep the current one. I think that should be enough, but not trying at all shows he is as selfish as she would be if she still asks him to divorce his wife after he has tried and still not found a way.
Shalini says
@ bright smile #44
When people are still entangled in finance or whatever, they are still married emotionally. Steven’s wife could serve him a divorce tomorrow. He still needs to find a way to get insurance. Why not now? As someone else mentioned earlier, life is full of inconvenience. Deal with it! More often than not, if we are willing to deal with the issue, the problem is a blessing in disguised.
I completely agree with this. If he has to find an insurance when his wife decides to marry why can’t he look for it now? Wouldn’t it be inconvenient for his wife and her bf as well if they have to wait to get married till he finds an insurance. What if they don’t wait for that either. What will he do then? I think this should be an opportunity for him to do now what he would have done later.
Karl R says
Evan said: (#32)
“If we’re still subscribing to logic, Karl, the simplest solution would be to keep things as they are.”
Relationship decisions aren’t entirely based on logic. And it’s not necessarily irrational to make decisions based on feelings.
In addition, the simplest solution isn’t necessarily the best solution. In this case, it seems like the simple solution could cause a great relationship to stagnate. It seems like the complex solution leads to growing pains.
Furthermore, I instinctively chose my solution because it takes a lot of the emotion out of the decision. It’s no longer Steven vs. his girlfriend. It’s Steven and his girlfriend vs. the system. You really want your partner to feel like you’re on their team.
brightsmile said: (#44)
“Karl, I love your all your responses, more so with this one because you openly disagreed with Evan.”
Thank you. Reasonable people can disagree. I respect Evan’s opinion because he’s generally reasonable.
Debating him is even more fun, because he’s a more challenging opponent.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena and @JuJu. I can understand her motives. Completely. I didn’t say she’s evil. I didn’t say she’s “wrong”. I didn’t say it was absurd for her to want to get married. I said she has her own agenda and she’s weighing it more than his agenda, which is normal. EVERYONE sees the world thru his/her own eyes. But, as TexasDarlin said, if the guy is self-employed and makes 50K a year, can’t get preapproved for health care, and, if he does get pre-approved, has to pay $300/month more for premiums, and THOUSANDS of dollars more for any procedures, I believe that outweighs her need to get married. Especially if they have a safe, stable, happy, supportive relationship.
To clarify, I’m not pro-marriage. I’m pro-happiness. If she’s not happy, she should leave him. I just think she’d be making a mistake because, to me, he sounds like a decent guy, caught between a rock and a hard place. There are many happy couples who don’t get married, for whatever reason, and it has nothing to do with love and devotion. I’m not surprised that so many of you disagree, but somewhat surprised at how few are truly thinking about the consequences of the decision for him. It’s so easy to say “He won’t/can’t marry you; dump him.” It’s what I say in MOST situations. But that’s because it’s clear that the man doesn’t WANT to marry. In this instance, I truly think he loves her and is faced with a serious financial quandary.
If “marriage” is her endgame, then she should leave – with all of your blessings, apparently, but I think she’ll be leaving a good guy. I put myself in both of their positions and I find myself leaning towards him in this case.
JuJu says
Well, as I already expressed, I personally (and wholeheartedly) support Steven in this case – her reasons for wanting to marry just do not seem as valid to me as his reasons for wanting to keep things the way they are. I was just reacting to this, “Let’s call a spade a spade: she wants to lock him in so he couldn’t possibly flee.”
Shay says
Evan, I think the majority of us are not pro her leaving him. The fact that Steven posted this question to you means he cares. I believe what most of us is saying that staying status quo for Steven is not a good or the solution. Trying to settle the problem as a couple could be a better solution.
Holly says
I think that in this particular situation it seems that if either one of them give in to the other (because there is no middle ground) they will be resentful of each other. Some things, unfortunately, are deal breakers. Would I be happy being with a married man? Nope. I want a marriage. Not because I want to trap someone, not because I want to force someone into something they don’t want, but because I want a marriage. In my personal values and beliefs, marriage is the only type of relationship that would satisfy my needs. I don’t think she is a bad person for wanting what many people want. But I also don’t think she is going to be happy even if he does give up his insurance, because he clearly does not want to, and it is going to have a devestating effect on the relationship if he did. I think the best thing to do would be to find partners that have the same needs and wants. Steven needs to be with a person who IS okay with not getting married, as well as with him being (legally) married to someone else. Steven’s girlfriend needs to be with a person who wants to get married. I do think we need to think of this as Evan has always said in the past though, as either you can accept something or you can leave. Just because she isn’t okay with the relationship the way it is does not make her selfish in my eyes. It means that she probably needs to be with someone else who can meet her needs and desires the way that Steven can’t.
I also am curious, though, if she knew about his dilemma before she entered the relationship, and what the “verbal contract” was about the issue. I know if when my partner and I started dating, he had told me he had a wife that he had to stay legally married to for insurance, I’d wish him the best in life and say unfortunately, that’s not what I’m looking for.
JuJu says
I think where a lot of you are mistaken is thinking in terms of the forever. What if his wife some day wants to get married, what if she dies, blah-blah, what happens then? I say, he’ll “jump off that bridge” when he gets to it. AS LONG AS he can milk this, he should absolutely go for it. What are his gf’s reasons for getting married? Insecurity? Whereas it’s his very survival that’s at stake for him. He obviously doesn’t make a lot of money if he refers to insurance (if he can even find it with his preexisting conditions) as being cost-prohibitive.
I wonder how desirable a marriage candidate is he even going to be if he either goes completely broke over the healthcare expenses, or allows his health to deteriorate further because he simply can’t afford to take care of it?
Joe says
Why are some of you attributing Steven’s wife with ulterior motives for not divorcing him? Reasonable people can still have amicable relationships after breakups/divorces–just because you can’t doesn’t mean no one can. Just because the wife has no prospects for marriage at the moment doesn’t mean she never will. Or she could have a BTDT attitude to marriage now. Whichever it is, it’s not irrelevant to this situation.
Just because Person A is no longer in a (romantic) relationship with Person B doesn’t mean that A should no longer care for B. If it’s no skin off her nose, why shouldn’t she continue to carry Steven on her insurance?
On one hand, Steven desires cheap health care, and in this day and age, that’s not a small thing. On the other hand, his girlfriend wants marriage. It sounds like Steven wants to give it to her, but not at the financial price he would have to pay. It also sounds like the girlfriend wants marriage, but doesn’t want to have to pay a price for it, i.e. get a job where Steven could be on her insurance, or pony up some cash out of her paycheck to help insure him.
Until one or both of them gives in on making that financial sacrifice, the status quo will remain. She’ll want him to get divorced, and he won’t want to for losing his cheap insurance. Neither is right or wrong, it’s just a question of who is willing to make the sacrifice.
Didn’t someone say that the person with the most power in a relationship is the one who cares the least? Which of them is willing to make the financial sacrifice or walk?
Holly says
I’d also like to respond to Evan saying that he thinks she would making a mistake if she breaks up with him, because he sounds like a decent guy. I agree that he DOES sound like a good guy, and it does sound like he really loves her. BUT, just because someone is a good guy doesn’t make them a good guy for her.
Sadly, I’ve been with a few really good guys who just weren’t good guys for me. Did I make a mistake and regret ending the relationship? No, because I knew that although they were great guys, it wasn’t a great relationship because we either didn’t end up wanting the same things or we didn’t end up getting along. I’m not saying Steven’s girlfriend should break up with Steven. I’m saying if she is unhappy with the way things are, that she needs to decide whether or not she could be happy without marriage. Some people can’t.
Lorianne says
I for one will go on record as saying the gf should leave, especially if he’s not willing to even TRY to find an alternative. In her shoes, I would already have been LONG GONE.
JuJu says
Joe #60: Why are some of you attributing Steven’s wife with ulterior motives for not divorcing him?
Yeah, I don’t get this either. Very close-minded thinking.
One of my absolute best friends is an ex. If anything, having been in a relationship only made us closer than we would have otherwise ever been. But just because we are good as friends doesn’t mean we are a good match as a couple, which was what we found out.
Honey says
I also don’t get why the wife supposedly has ulterior motives. I run a sex blog with my ex, for goodness’ sake, and my boyfriend is FINE with it. My boyfriend had lunch with an ex-hookup yesterday and then after work met another for drinks. Decent people manage to stay on friendly terms with their exes where possible (though it’s not always possible…).
I also don’t get why people are saying that Steven hasn’t done anything to find out about whether changing his health plan is feasible. He says he can’t get his own plan or if he could, it would be cost-prohibitive, which to me implies he’s already done the research – e.g., it’s not an assumption he’s making, it’s a conclusion he’s drawing after having all the facts at his disposal.
I also don’t get the crazy what-if scenarios everyone is conconcting – what if Steven’s wife dies, or remarries, or starts hating him and removes him from her policy? He’s acknowledged that he may not always have access to it, but the fact that he *might* have to make other, more expensive arrangements for significantly lower-quality health care in the future doesn’t lead to a conclusion that he *must* choose to now.
I mean, if we’re concocting what-if scenarios, what if he initiates divorce from his current wife to marry his girlfriend, and his girlfriend leaves him after the divorce but before the marriage? Or what if he divorces and remarries successfully, and then she gets hit by a bus and now he’s a widower with crappy health insurance? Or what if he divorces the wife, marries the girlfriend, and his health totally deteriorates and they declare bankruptcy right before he dies, leaving her not only alone but penniless due to him no longer having access to a treatment that he could have gotten easily under his old insurance?
Everyone’s scenarios (including mine) seem far less likely than this: everything stays as it is. Steven has access to quality, affordable medical care that allows him to be a devoted and supportive partner. His girlfriend is able to enjoy his company because he is heathy, happy, and financially solvent. Wife never remarries, eventually retires, Steven and wife divorce and both get Medicare. Steven marries devoted long-time girlfriend and they spend their sunset years in wedded bliss.
Why, exactly, is that such an unattractive alternative?
Selena says
Evan re: # 55
You’re surprised about how many of us are not thinking about the consequences of the decision for him? Well maybe because he’s not thinking about the consequences of not being on his wife’s insurance himself. What would he do if she divorced him/lost her job/ quit/ died? He’d be in the same place. JuJu got it…”as long as he can milk this…” And while understandable, not all of us are finding it admirable.
But you got right to the heart of the matter Evan: “He does not WANT to marry her.” And that is the message she will finally “get”, if she hasn’t already.
JuJu says
Selena, I think you are operating on the assumption that either all laws are just, or that all laws must be followed simply because they are laws. His conduct is fraudulent, you say? I say it’s easy to be on a high horse when one doesn’t have similar problems.
Texasdarlin says
As I said before I can really empathaize with Steven’s delimma. I sounds as though he truly cares about his girlfriend and her feelings and if the insurance wasn’t an issues he marry her in a heartbeat. It also sounds like he’s done is research like me and has found that the cost of insurance is prohbitive. I’ve gone on line to search for any insurance that will cover my preexixting. The reputable companies have all said the same thing. NO. The not so reputable ones have given me quotes of upwards of $700.00 per month and the benefits are not all that good. Also , most tell you you that they will not cover any medical costs related to the preexisting for 12 months. What’s the point then? If Steven’s like me I only go to the doctor because of my preexisting condition. I’m otherwise relatively healthy. I’m making some guesses here based on what Steven wrote, but his girlfriend has to be aware of allof this as well as whatever financial issues exist. The thing is it’s his health that is at stake. Being without major medical insuarance is hard, scary and potentially life threatening. I can’t say what either should or shouldn’t do, but I do agree with Evan.
Selena says
I think this bothers me because there is a whole “user” mentality that goes with it. Steven is using his wife’s company so he doesn’t have to get his own insurance. Even though they aren’t ‘married’ in the sense the insurance is intended. He’s using his wife to go along. Using his girlfriend similarly. Shirking personal responsibility and justifying it how? Because HI is so expensive? Yeah. Alot of things are.
It may be perfectly legal, but it smells a bit sleazy.
And JuJu? Bummer that there are unjust laws that don’t allow you to put your ‘ friends’ on your company insurance policy. Sumbody should do something about that.
david says
I’m galled by all the cries of “Damn, I would be long gone!” “Dump him, girlfriend” etc. By all accounts, he seems like a loving, decent and supportive guy with an odd piece of baggage — health insurance/health issues — that ties him to his ex, not unlike someone of his age who has some other kind of baggage from relationships past — children (or even troublesome children)…and from I what I’ve read (on this blog and in books and articles), a decent, supportive man (esp. a 49 y.o. who wants to DATE IN HIS AGE RANGE) is very hard to fine — and many seem to be crying for him to be kicked to the curb because of this pre-existing condition/pre-existing relationship/pre-existing arrangement. Often the perfect guy/situation in real life does not match the IDEA of the perfect guy/situation that many have in their heads.
Kenley says
I read that OP question again and a couple of things struck me.
1. Steven does seem like a nice guy — even though I didn’t think so at first because I do have a bias against married men.
2. Steven himself says that his girlfriend is UNDERSTANDING but torn. So, Steven certainly doesn’t appear to think he girlfriend is selfish — why should we? He knows her better than any of us do.
3. Steven specifically asked what would other people do. So, based on his desire for the opinion of others, why are we arguing with each other? There really is no right or wrong answer here. I think may be helpful for Steven to understand that plenty of women feel the way his girlfriend does. At the same time, I think may it be helpful for Steven’s girlfriend to understand that others support and validate Steven’s position.
Although my gut reaction is that they should break up, perhaps as a number of others have suggested they need to try, as a couple, to come up with a solution that will make them both happy. Maybe they take a creative problem solving class. They need to try something different and unconventional to solve this really difficult issue. If both of them aren’t really and truly happy with the solution, then they need to break up. Neither of them should just stay together for fear that they won’t be able to find another great partner. Too many good people stay in relationships that destroy them because of that irrational thinking.
Keke says
I’d have to agree with Holly @58. Everyone is making great arguments for both sides. It’s such a grey area.
To me, all three parties are at a slight lose-lose situation. Some more then others. The wife right now seems fine and content to not date. But when she does (if ever), this is going to be a sticky situation for her future relationships. On the one hand, if she starts dating a guy who wants a LTR and marriage, then it’s going to look like she’s not over her ex. Unless she is lucky and gets a liberal minded boyfriend. Or she will just do casual relationships (which maybe she will want).
Holly got it right, imho. If either the boyfriend or the girlfriend compromises, one of them is going to be resentful of the other. There will be another source of conflict. The girlfriend obviously has her own reasons to want to be married to him, and it seems that it is very important to her. I don’t see a happy ending or solution in this situation.
Shay says
Hey, did I not get the gist of the discussion until #70?
I disagree that they should break up. Although I stand by marriage and don’t think its the best that they stay this way, I disagree that they should break up. C’mon, its not easy that they found one another.
To me, they might not realise the full potential for happiness in their relationship because of this. But hey, having some is better than none. If they break up, they might not find anyone at all for the rest of their lives.
And what? Would Steven wanna live in good health care w/o a woman who loves him? Continue living well but live in unhappiness?
Or would Steven desire keeping status quo? Seeing the slight unhappiness or longing for marriage in the eyes of his beloved woman? Everyday being reminded that she is not fully happy. Wouldn’t that be torturous?
How about Steven and the love of his life seeking a solution together for their future? They may or may not finally resolve the problem, but I think the relationship would be strengthen.
Lorianne says
@David — For the record, I’m not impressed by the fact that the OP deigns to want to date a woman his own age. And before half a dozen people jump on my case — the sarcasm is directed toward David’s assertion that “les femmes du certain age” should jump up and down with gratitude simply because a man over 40 chooses not to chase after 20 year olds.
I do feel sympathy for the OP. However, I STILL think he should at least TRY to find an alternative to staying married just for health insurance. If he doesn’t, then yes, I do question how much he loves this woman.
Valerie says
Steven said it himself, he has great insurance and girlfriend. He isn’t giving up anything!
The marriage dream for her is never going to happen.
Better to have a dream that isn’t dependent on other’s feelings.
Sandra Bullock may have a cheating husband but so do soooo many others. But Sandra also has an Oscar! You can take that to the bank of self esteem. It’s something she did all on her own and no one can take it away from her. Boyfriends leave. Husbands cheat.
You know won’t pull the rug out from under her? Oscar! That’s who.
Lorianne says
@Honey #64 The OP is 49. Medicare kicks in at 65. You’re expecting the gf to wait SIXTEEN YEARS, during which time, the OP could meet someone else (it happens), his health could deteriorate or he could die (it happens), his wife could decide that she wants to remarry after all (it happens) or one of any number of things. Sixteen years is a long time to expect NOTHING to happen.
As for shopping for health insurance with a pre-existing condition, I’ve done it. I found health insurance, with temporary riders that eventually fell away. Was it easy? No, it was a pain in the posterior. But it is possible, especially if the OP’s condition isn’t that serious (which is how he described it).
If I was the OPs gf (which I would not be, because I don’t date married men, no matter what the circumstances), and he said to me, “hey babe, let’s wait around until I’m eligible for Medicare and then we can talk about getting married,” I would leave skid marks.
Selena says
If Steven’s gf, though understanding, is not content with the situation of being a married man’s girlfriend after 14 mos., what makes anyone think she will become content with it as time goes by?
The argument for keeping things “as is” is based on her loving Steven enough to accept they can be happy without a formal commitment and despite him being legally married to someone else. If she is not happy with “as is” now… does anyone believe she will “come around” in the next year, or two, or five?
Do you Steven?
Steve says
@Valerie #74
Better yet the best move is to work on getting away from self esteem (“I’m worth because___”) altogether. Most of the measures of it are transitory. Most of the measures of it are subjective…..some people consider it to be a worthy test others don’t and everyone who assigns value to a particular test doesn’t have any more of a decree from the universe to do so than anyone else.
bella says
Here’s a compromise:
Why don’t they have a “religious” ceremony, but skip the legalities of involving the state? That way they can express their commitment in front of all their friends and family, say their vows, and be seen as married by the community. He can buy her a ring too. Or if they don’t subscribe to a religion, have it be spiritual, or a commitment-ceremony like.
But skip the legal paperwork, so he can keep the health insurance.
Then they can save the money for other things: like, traveling, home ownership, or even long-term care for when they get older.
In the meantime, maybe they can draw up paperwork with the exwife that gives permission to the new girlfriend for power of attorney, or whatever precautions they want to take care of.
Down the road, if the exwife removes him from his policy, then they can file the state paperwork. Maybe Obama’s plan will even kick in by then, and policy rules will change for him.
Key word: COMPROMISE.
JuJu says
#77
Yeah, I didn’t understand what having an Oscar has to do with anything at all. :-/
All the other people whose spouses cheat on them should just hang themselves, I guess.
In fact, I’d say, regardless of one’s accomplishments, picking a mate of such questionable character – that’s gotta sting, man.
#78
What if they are atheists? :-p
Selena says
If legal marriage was abolished all these problems wouldn’t exist. There would be no ties other than a general amicability between Steven and his former partner. Steven and his girlfriend would celebrate their commitment to each other in whatever fanciful way they chose. Steven wouldn’t be agonizing over the possiblity of losing his wife’s insurance because he never would have had it in the first place.
Now there’s a solution.
Helen says
Ultimately, at the heart of this problem is the legal system, on 1) marriage and 2) health insurance.
We need two types of policy reform. One concerns universal health care coverage for single people, people with pre-existing conditions, etc.; in which we’ve recently made great strides. The other concerns marriage vs. civil unions, which requires not just a policy change, but a change in mindset about what makes a relationship sacred between two people.
Although I sympathize completely with the girlfriend, I also understand Evan’s viewpoint – maybe because what we’re really debating here is how much worth we place on this institution called “marriage.” What does it mean, both legally and symbolically? I think that is where the debate is getting hung up. I’ve been happily married for a decade, but I can understand why in many ways it is an outdated institution IN GENERAL (not in specifics) that may need reforming for the purposes of modern times and needs.
Oddly, providing universal health care coverage is one way to modernize marriage and its legal benefits for this day and age – because it takes away the need for two people who no longer want to be together to stay married for convenience.
Helen says
Selena #80: Oops, I didn’t read your comment before posting mine, and can see that you have many of the same ideas. The only difference is that you write of abolishing marriage, while I say it only needs to be reformed – both in the legal system and in people’s minds. But I think you were partially playing devil’s advocate anyway? 😉
Selena says
Helen,
Maybeee…;)
Mara says
The bigger issue is that he has a selfish girlfriend? I don’t think so. I think it is perfectly reasonable, not selfish, that a woman who loves someone would want to marry him instead of continuing to be with him while he stays married to his ex-wife extenuating circumstances or not. Perhaps he could be considered selfish for making the choice to be self-employed instead of pursuing a job that would give him benefits. We all have to make choices in life. We are rarely ?trapped in a situation, we make very deliberate choices. If he cares about being in a relationship, then having his own adequate health care should be HIS priority and he should be taking the steps to achieve that. I left a ?cool job once upon a time too to go into finance b/c the practicality of life called for it and I’m not living off an ex.
His current situation worked fine for HIM, when it was just him, but it is unfair to inflict that situation on to anyone else and expect them to be fine with it. I really don’t know any women who would be fine with it actually. Why should she be called selfishand that it is some flag that speaks to her character because she doesn’t want to be with someone dependent on his ex-wife and have him not be able to make the ultimate commitment to her. It’s not one compromise he is asking her to make. From tax brackets to spouse privileges as practical matters just as important as his insurance. You think she will be leaving a good guy? Well maybe he is losing a great girl by not cutting the ties to the ex and taking on a job where he can pay for his own damn benefits. And let’s see how much luck he has going out into the dating world and having to proclaim, By the way, I’m still married to my ex?..
Or maybe she has to make the sacrifice and takes the new job that has good coverage, fine. But if they want to be together, they need to work together on a solution or plan to obtain health care benefits that do not involve his ex. If she doesn’t want to take a new job either, then fine, call her selfish. But she is not selfish for the reasonable expectation that her partner would not continue to stay married to her ex.
Christie Hartman says
Not to self-promote here, but I literally wrote the book on dating divorced men and I have to say I have never heard of a scenario quite like this one. What a pickle! Based on what this guy said, it’s tough to take either side – he has a genuine practical problem, but she has a genuine need. No matter how you look at it, marriage is something some people really need and he is still legally tied to his ex-wife. What happens if these two grow old together and she has none of the legal rights a spouse would have? Ultimately, this woman has to decide if the compromise is worth it to her, or not.
Liz says
Wow, I never post here but some of these responses just rub me the wrong way. I think that some people have had good health and good insurance for so long that they can’t imagine the insecurity of living without it. We aren’t just talking about a gesture of commitment here. We’re talking about this man’s bodily health and financial stability. Has getting a man to commit become so important that a woman would put a man’s health and livelihood in jeopardy just to know he’s hers?
Also, working independently doesn’t mean you don’t have a “real” job. It’s just our crazy system that has designed health insurance to be carried through employers. Whether you qualify for employer health insurance has no bearing on how hard you work or how real your job is.
Obviously, the poster is not in a situation that will last forever, so he does need to come up with a long-term plan. But he shouldn’t feel pressured to give up his health care before he’s ready to. If these two are truly committed to each other, they should find a solution together. I think the impetus is now on the girlfriend; if she’s asking him to give up his insurance for her, she needs to show she can help him with any additional financial burden that his lack of insurance will create. I’m not hearing yet that she has a plan for their future. Someone suggested he get another job, but she could also look for a job with spousal insurance.
In any case, these decisions should be made because both people want to marry each other–not because the woman feels threatened by his ex or is afraid he’ll leave if they’re not married.
Helen says
Evan, I must say I’m surprised by your seeming distrust and cynicism of Steven’s girlfriend, as evidenced by your comments in #14:
“Let’s call a spade a spade: she wants to lock him in so he couldn’t possibly flee… Can’t trust men… For her to tell him to force an unnecessary and expensive divorce so that she can lock him in only makes sense to ONE party her… She’s going to break up with a guy who really loves her but is bound by his health issues. And for what? The piece of paper that prevents him from breaking up with her.”
Evan, the girlfriend knows he’s separated, so she already knows that a piece of paper (i.e., marriage) won’t prevent him from fleeing if he so chooses. Why assume she’s trying to “lock him in”? I don’t think any American woman today believes that marriage means locking in a man for the rest of one’s life; we’ve heard ad infinitum about divorce rates, after all.
Rather, marriage is symbolically important to this woman. Whether it OUGHT to be is a separate question – but she cares deeply about it, and therefore, it would have been comforting to read that Steven actually tried to DO something about resolving the situation. But as others pointed out earlier, he seems to be making zero effort.
If he doesn’t want to marry her, he should tell her sooner rather than later. It’s likely she’ll end things if he decides against marriage, but there’s also a chance that she won’t – that she’s fine with keeping the status quo. In either case, he would be honest with her.
JuJu says
If I ever wanted to get married, it would be solely for the legal protection. Not too many things justify this need for protection, though. Having kids would be one such thing, but that is not an issue for the folks in question. As for property – what does this man even have that the gf needs to be entitled to?? Besides, sorry, but I really think a woman 46 years of age should be able to take care of herself.
A commitment ceremony Bella describes in post 78 would mean absolutely nothing to me. In fact, I would never agree to one, especially if it had any religious undertones. But that’s me – if it’s [b]commitment[/b] that the gf wants, perhaps precisely such a ceremony would make her happy.
Ultimately, though, we are arguing logic vs. emotion here.
sofka says
Another practical suggestion: Why doesn’t Steven suggest that his girlfriend change her surname by deed pole so they both have the same surname? Going through a legal process of some kind might at least signal that Steven very much wants his girlfriend and himself to be seen as a couple and in many situations, when 2 people with the same surname are clearly a couple, marriage would just be assumed by anyone who didn’t know the exact set up. Steven would be saying that he would be happy for other people to see them as a married couple?? Or is this just strange!?
LK says
Sofka, almost none of my married female friends have bothered to change their name. That sounds like a pretty old-fashioned notion to me.
Personally, I am in the “don’t bother getting involved with a married or separated man in the first place”. Even if I ignore the issue about not being eligible to get married, I would not want to be in a relationship with someone else’s husband.
Also, no one has mentioned how Steven is taking financial advantage of his wife’s employer.
My primary reasons for wanting to get married, in order, are (1) I want to have kids (2) legal issues e.g., making medical decisions and other basic relationship rights — the same rights that LGB couples are fighting for and (3) social status/public recognition. Things such as buying property together in order to build a home become a lot more logistically complicated if you are not a married couple. This is different from feeling insecure about a relationship and wanting to “lock him in”. Marriage is a different level of permanence, and that is a legitimate thing to desire.
Maybe Steven should make it clear to his girlfriend that he is working on creative solutions to this problem and see if they can tackle it together as a couple (e.g., if she is willing to help him find a new insurance policy. That would also be a good test of their relationship. Also, if ObamaCare goes through, then in a few years his pre-existing condition should no longer be an issue for him in terms of buying his own policy.
allison says
Wow, what an interesting world. This man is literally still married , has a girlfriend to fulfill all his emotional needs and a wife to take care of his financial insurance needs.
First of all isn’t any of this against the law?? A sham of a marriage so insurance can be had?
A wife who is putting her life on hold,to benefit a mad she is not having a relationship with. A girlfriend who is honest about what she wants for her future, but is caught in gridlock.
I am sorry but I do not think of the girlfriend as anything but a saint. When someone tells you who they are believe them. This man is a noncommittal,excuse making, whimpy man.
Selena says
Re: #’s 90 & 91
It’s interesting isn’t it that the commenter’s who favor Steven staying married “for insurance” have no problem with who pays for it. Which is Steven’s wife’s employers and all the other policy holders under the same insurance company who pay premiums. Which could conceivably include any number of people reading this blog.
You cool with providing a man a man health care who gets it simply because he is “legally” married, but isn’t “physically and emotionally” married? Who’s in a “committed relationship” with someone else? Who refers to the woman who makes this possible as his EX-wife? How generous of you. Don’t complain next time your premiums/co-pays are raised, or you are denied a test your doctor recommends – people out there with “arrangements” need care more than you do.
The hypocracy in some of this discussion is just staggering. And makes it understandable why some companies (like Steven’s girlfriend’s) WON’T insure spouses. Maybe they have run into this kind of “legal” fraud before and said “uh uh”.
And she’s his WIFE people, not ex-wife.
Mary says
Re: #91 & 92 …
Ok, I’m with you guys, and I don’t like the situation any more than you do … but … what do you suggest corporations do? ?Have a form that employees with spousal insurance fill out, attesting to the “emotional” relationship? What would that be … Check this box if you are living with your spouse. ?Check this box if you have had sexual relations in the past year. ?Fact is, Steven and his “ex” are married.?No fraud.?Sorry.
JuJu says
#91: A wife who is putting her life on hold,to benefit a mad she is not having a relationship with.
Where are you getting this? Whatever her reasons for not dating are, I am not getting the impression at all that they are a sacrifice she is making in order for her "husband" to get insurance.
Tabitha says
With the passage of health reform, this guy doesn’t have an excuse anymore to avoid committing to his girlfriend.
Joe says
We’ll see.? No one really knows how the health reform bill will affect him.
JuJu says
Nor is it effective immediately.
Jenny says
I'm not making a judgement either way. To me, it's completely understandable that someone who has affordable health insurance would not be eager to give it up in a situation where they might a) be unable to get coverage, or b) be unable to afford to replace their health insurance. It is not "bad" to want to care for your health, especially with a pre-existing condition that can be life-threatening. I also complete understand why a woman would not want a man she loves to continue in a marriage to someone else, regardless of the reason he remains married and the lack of emotional attachment to their spouse. The truth is, their legal spouse has legal rights that cannot be realistically contested, and therefore requires a good deal of thought as to how to deal with the situation. For instance, if the GF and man live together and accumulate property, how does the GF establish her property versus his in a court in the event of his death if his wife tries to claim his property? They are all valid concerns. Neither is more or less selfish. These are just facts of life.
What this means is that these two people need to pay attention to the tenets of a relationship: trust, communication, and compromise. But there is an unspoken limit that needs to be addressed as well: limits. They need to sit down, discuss the problems, how to compromise or resolve the problems, and whether or not each or both parties can live with the resolution. No one can make that decision for them, only they can. If he cannot reconcile divorcing his wife and losing his insurance, and she cannot reconcile continuing a relationship with a man legally bound to someone else, then they have one choice left: live with it and continue the relationship, or break up. It's sad, but life is made up of hard decisions. We have to be adults and make them, good, bad, or indifferent.
Selena says
Re: #98
Re-read the letter. The man says he has a pre-existing condition that is NOT serious. Not life threatening. Not putting his general health in peril. NOT SERIOUS.
Hadley Paige says
Allison @ 91 says ” I am sorry but I do not think of the girlfriend as anything but a saint. When someone tells you who they are believe them. This man is a noncommittal, excuse making, whimsy man.”
__________________________
Would someone please tell me why it is women seemingly are always the ones who are seeking to get married ?Answer: it financially benefits them. Would she be so hot to get married if marriage was a better than 50% chance for her of financial pain or destruction?I think not.
Let’s change the laws to something that men don’t see as catastrophic to men if the wife divorces them. Better yet, let’s change them to something that men perceive as benefitting them financially if they divorce. What would happen to all the marriage (and commitment) adverse men that women complain about then?
I’ll tell you about my immediate transformation. I’d be like>> “It’s not about the money honey, I love you and I want everyone to know that you love me. That’s what marriage means.That’s why I want to marry you”. In other words, I start sounding like women now in the current legal environment with its current set of financial incentives and disincentives to marriage.
For me, I’ll be happy to make all the gestures and statements in the world if the don’t cost me big time or put me at financial risk. If I walk away from a marriage with more $$$ than I would have had if I were single (maybe lots more) baby, I am all over it ! !
Selena says
Re: 100
If legal marriage were abolished everyone would be treated as individuals under the law – no special circumstances for being “a couple”. No one would benefit financially from either marriage or divorce since neither existed. You all over that Hadley?
Jonesey says
The guy is married. He isn’t going to marry the other chick. He has his reasons, and he wants her to buy into them, as does Evan.
What’s clear is that if she wants to get married, she’ll have to dump him and find someone else. He isn’t going to marry her. And if he does, it might be for some sham of a reason, the way he’s married now.
If she wants to be with him, it will only ever be as a permanent girlfriend. His life is working for him now and he isn’t going to change. He has no reason to. His life isn’t working for her, that’s her problem. So she needs to change–by making him an ex that she can be on good terms with (since he’s so good at that) while she finds someone who has it more together. It’s too bad he’s sick, but that’s the way the world is.
And what’s with the ageism on here. People in their 40s find jobs and find dates and get married and find health insurance and do all the stuff that people in their 20s do. And usually better (athletic events excepted). Jees. Do y’all really think that you hit 40 and your sex life/love life/career are over? It will be–if you think that way. Y’all must be pretty scared.
Hadley Paige says
RE: Selena @ 101 If legal marriage were abolished
That is a very thought provoking point that you have raised w many implications. We go back to marriage as a religious ceremony or (I guess in its modern incarnation) a spiritual ceremony with little or no legal substance. Other rights that people in a couple want to create or maintain or reduce could be done in a checklist form filed at the DMV (check for eg: inheritance, medical proxy, checking acct authority, stock trading authority, real estate co-ownership).
I would be very interested in hearing more about it and what women might think about it. But I am not sure that EMK's forum is the correct one for this type of exploration. Thank you Selena for bringing the point up.
Goldie says
New to this site, first time posting – thought I’d weigh in, since I have what I believe to be relevant information. I just went through the divorce process (very amicable, we filled out an MSA) and leaving my ex-husband on my insurance after our divorce was a viable legal option that we were looking into. (We eventually decided against it because his employer recently added new, less expensive insurance options for him). When I asked my corporate HR if this was something we could do, here’s what they said: “The only way around this would be if the court ordered coverage to continue. Our plan allows for legal dependents only. Once a marriage is disolved due to divorce, the covered spouse loses eligibility and would be offered COBRA to continue benefits, unless otherwise noted in the divorce decree.”
What I am saying here is, in the ten years Steven and his wife have been separated, he has not even bothered to ask whether it is possible to be divorced and remain on her insurance nonetheless. Which boggles my mind, because it was the first thing my ex asked me to find out. If I were given this information about a man I don’t otherwise know, I’d have to conclude that he is either not proactive and not used to taking care of himself, or that he wants to stay married, for reasons other than medical insurance. Either one a huge red flag to me. I probably wouldn’t stick around long enough to find out which one it is. I’m on the girlfriend’s side in this, sort of, that is, to me it’s irrelevant whether she wants to get married or not – the real problem IMO is that he is married and doesn’t plan to do anything to change that.
Selena says
@ Goldie #104
Re-read the letter. He says he was married for 10 years, he doesn’t say how long he’s been separated.
Joe says
I would think that most people would assume that once you are no longer married to someone, i.e. divorced, that person is no longer legally considered a dependent, and would therefore automatically be kicked out of any dependent-based benefits (taxes, insurance, etc.), no need to even bother asking HR.
hamsterdance says
I was interested in the responses to this question as I’m in a very similar situation with my BF right now.
When I met him he had been separated from his ex for about 8 months, and hadn’t dated anyone seriously in that time. He has serious health problems that would keep him from getting private coverage, his job didn’t offer any health insurance, and to top it off he lost that job six weeks after we started dating. He is still on his ex’s policy because he absolutely cannot go without insurance. I am in the same boat, so I understand. It’s simply not an option.
He started a new job 2 weeks ago, and will have his own coverage in a few months time. He had started looking for a new job a few weeks after we met, before he had even lost his former job. He is eager to file for divorce and get it over with, because even though the separation was fairly amicable it has become apparent to him that his ex is not over him at all, and he doesn’t want to feel forced to stay friends with her anymore.
It has bothered me somewhat that he isn’t divorced yet, moreso because he hasn’t even been able to file yet. But knowing that he was working toward changing that was what made it ok for me. It took a while with the crappy unemployment rates here, and because he’s legally blind there are many jobs he just plain can’t do. But he kept at it.
My employer does offer spousal coverage, so had it become necessary we could have gotten married the moment the ink was dry on his divorce decree, but that would hardly be ideal. It would sort of be a last resort. Had my employer not offered coverage for him I would have been seriously looking for a new job as well. But only if I knew he was serious about getting married.
It’s not about the ceremony or the ring for me. I don’t need either of those things. It’s not a religious thing either. We’re both atheists. I can’t explain why it’s so important to me, it just is. I want to be able to call him my husband and not be thinking in the back of my mind that it’s not true. I’m glad we are on the same page about it.
If there were absolutely no solution then I don’t think I could just be ok with that. But as I said, I would find a new job myself before just giving up on it, so long as I knew he was serious about getting married.
My dad was self employed for 33 years as a professional artist, and then had to go out and get a job when his main gallery dropped him. He is in his fifties and he found a good paying job with the federal government (though he had to work his way up a a bit) with practically no marketable job skills as he had not had a job since he was 21. So I’m not entirely convinced that Steven couldn’t/shouldn’t look for an employment position elsewhere. He would have the luxury of holding out for a good offer, something my dad didn’t have. And depending on how much of a role he plays in his business he could maybe either hire someone else to do his job, or sell the business, and either way there would be income from that.
Goldie says
@ Selena #105
My mistake – but my point still stands. He’s been separated for at least fourteen months (I would hope). Long enough for him to look into this issue. If he said he’d made inquiries and found out it’d be impossible for him to remain on his wife’s insurance, I would understand. From what I understand, like Joe (#106) said, he just assumes.
Then again, the girlfriend knew what she was getting into. The fact that the OP is legally married had been fine with her for over a year, and now all of a sudden it’s not. I understand why this isn’t going over well with the OP; I probably wouldn’t be happy, either.
At this point in my life, I admit it’s hard for me to understand or share someone’s desire to get married, so I won’t even try. I am however a big proponent of getting your affairs in order the best you can under the circumstances. To me, the OP’s original arrangement with his ex sounds like an invitation for disaster. What if it’s his ex that decides to get married tomorrow? IMO they should’ve tried to arrange for something more stable than what they have now (probably still can).
Adam says
I might not be an adult yet – 15 years old and proud of it – but I do know when people are using stereotypes and sexism to come to a rounded decision. For all those people out there, I’ve read almost all of these posts and given each one a fair chance. Now it’s my turn.
Steven obviously loves his girlfriend, thats why he’s so concerned about it and is asking questions – because he’s scared of what to do. This shows he loves her but doesn’t know what to do.
As he’s nearly 50, it will be very difficult for him to find a job in the job market these days, so he probably won’t be able to cope with finding a new job if he chooses to file a divorce.
As for the girlfriend she isn’t being ‘selfish’ for wanting a marriage. She just eager to – like most women – show her affection for Steven in the best way she can.
But I do think that the need for cheap, healthcare is very important. If she loves him she wants him to be safe and healthy, am I right?
He is still in a friendship with his wife. There is nothing wrong with that. She is paying for his healthcare, because she is his friend. There is nothing wrong with that.
People, I don’t think we should shuffle to one side – that’s just too simple a solution to such a complex problem. I believe we should get all three of the main factors here – the wife, Steven and the girlfriend – to sit and discuss these problems. They might come up with something themselves that they can agree on.
But we shouldn’t side. We should accept all of the scenario. Most of you are adults (probably). This solution comes from a 15-year-old boy.
Star says
The issue goes beyond health insurance here. Having been divorced myself, I can tell you that I was in a hurry to be done with my ex-husband, to get that divorce decree signed by the judge NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES. When you are done with a spouse, YOU ARE DONE. To me it doesn’t look like this guy is done with his ex. Also, staying married for health insurance is fraudulent on many different levels.
I feel sorry for the girlfriend here. Does she realize her BF views marriage as a vehicle for financial gain rather than for a show of love, trust and commitment to the ONE person you want to be with?
Karma is real and this guy’s not-so-ex spouse is going to find someone else, get married and ditch him from her health plan without a second thought. Hopefully his girlfriend will realize the leach that he is before then and will be long gone.
He’s self-employed. He can go out and buy a medical plan. People do it all the time. There are health plans EVERYWHERE.
Kris says
you have to remember one thing, chicks don’t view us guy’s as human beings. More often then not they view as an object. Like what’s hers is hers and whats his is also hers. That is why women all the time file for divorce because they found a younger model(over 3/4ths of divorces are filed by women for other reasons then abuse,cheating or drugs problems). The only reason women want to get married is because women and mangina’s worked real hard to make sure all the traditional male gender responsibilities are codified into law, marriage is a way some women actively enslave men.
If you got married now and she get’s bored a few years down the road, you got lucky the first time. Going through a divorce with a more sociopathic inclined woman would probably destroy you. Realistically your too old to recoup any losses in the inevitable divorce and your retirement will be shot.
And if you own your own home, well she shouldn’t even be living with you. Because even with a pre-nupt she will still get the house. Heck even if you aren’t married she could call 911 and come up with a domestic violence lie and could get the house anywhere from a year to forever(Look up what happened to Kurt Angle).
Women can only care about men as much as she could care about her favorite dildo. Because if you honestly looked at all the things women and their advocates did to men and boy’s over the last 20 years…
Karl R says
Kris said: (#111)
“That is why women all the time file for divorce because they found a younger model(over 3/4ths of divorces are filed by women for other reasons then abuse,cheating or drugs problems).”
Your information is wrong. Women initiate divorce 2/3 of the time.
Reasons women cite for divorce:
69.7% communication problems
59.9% unhappiness
56.4% incompatible with spouse
55.5% emotional abuse
32.9% financial problems
32.1% sexual problems
30.0% spouse’s alcohol abuse
25.2% spouse’s infidelity
21.7% physical abuse
(respondents could select more than one reason)
At a bare minimum, 55% of the women divorced due to abuse. The reasons you gave (boredom, wants a younger man) seem to fall below the 20% mark.
This information is a bit out of date (from 1985). A more recent study indicated that 48% of women got divorced because of abuse, and it was the most common reason for divorce.
Kris said: (#111)
“Women can only care about men as much as she could care about her favorite dildo.”
Don’t date. It will just make you and your partner unhappy.
Rosa says
I work in health care in a country with universal insurance. I cannot put myself in these shoes.
However , in basic terms , this guys money fears and his personal health fears come way ahead of his love for his GF and his desire to express that as fully in public commitment as he can.
In my opinion she needs to move on and look for a guy with his life together enough not to be relying on the whim and goodwill of his legal wife. I would never connect myself to a man who was tied to another woman and too scared to leave.
Dina says
I think that the man can get an inexpensive divorce (since nothing’s being contested) with a stipulation that his wife keep him on her insurance plan. My boyfriend’s still on his ex-wife’s dental plan and she’s on his health insurance plan and they’ve been divorced for 2 years.
screenvixen says
Hmmm, I just wouldn’t find a man is his situation dateable much less marriage material. 1.) he still married. he would immediately get the no-go for that one 2.) he has a dependency to his ex-wife based on the condition he remains in her good esteem not only is that tacky but smacks of unfinished business.
Those two facts alone would make him totally unattractive to me as a woman who wants to date and yes eventually marry the man I love.
This really is the girlfriend’s fault. She isn’t a spring chicken and should have known by age 46 what she wanted out of her relationship with a man.
Why a man at his age is still relying on anybody for a basic necessity such as health insurance is beyond me. What happens if dear old wifey loses her job? I mean really he should want to get his own coverage not for his girlfriend but for his own peace of mind.
Michelle says
What I have learned for myself from this man’s letter and most of the responses:
1. Find a way to take care of yourself financially so that you never rely on another human being to provide you with financial security (hence leaving you free to be with who you want and to be what you want)
2. Marriage is no guarantee of a relationship lasting nor is it a sign of love. Neither is writing a letter to a professional nor making grand gestures like risking financial security or your health. Love because it feels good and don’t expect someone to fulfill something in your life. You’re the only one that can choose your happiness so find a way to fulfill your own self. Besides marriage is a “legal” thing and the only people that should need “law” or “legalities” are people who need direction like criminals. Love should be up there with God and should be an enlightening experience not something that requires you to sign some lame contract with stipulations like you do when you get a new cell phone. Come on people.
3. I’m glad to be a Canadian and I feel blessed that I live in a country with universal health care. For those that kibosh Obamacare (or whatever you call it) I don’t have to sacrifice my health for a relationship and visa versa. If Steve wants a suggestion, tell him to move to Canada. Sheesh.
Simone says
As a Canadian health care provider (who works part-time, but has NO benefits), I want to dispel the myth of “free” health care in Canada. The only free care we get care from a family doctor [which I am lucky to have … many don’t] or hospitalization. I suspect that Steven won’t be better off here. There are lots of extra fees. Physio is a $100/visit … teeth cleaning is $80/visit
I am of similar age and situation, as Steven, however, after 3 years, I decided to move forward with the divorce and lose my exes shared benefits during separation; even though I’d be worse-off financially, my freedom was more important, than saving health care costs.
I noticed that more men would date me. with more serious intent, which was important to me; as I would eventually like a long term partnership, preferably, marriage. Steven needs to eventually prepare for the fact that his ex could lose her job or re-marry and prepare for it. He’s 49 and has at least another 30 years on this earth … that’s likely why his girlfriend didn’t want to wait.
Kalina says
As a woman in the same situation as Stephen, I’d like to give my input. As Kenley said it’s also about showing the married partner showing his or her commitment in other ways. I had been involved with my (now former) boyfriend for about a year and a half. I told him my situation early on. He indicated it wasn’t a concern for him as he wasn’t interested in getting married again (he was 39 at the time – I’m nearly ten years older). I also told him that if it was important to him, I would be willing to divorce (although it would be a financial hardship, especially as a self-employed woman in this economy). I also have thought that there is a difference between a legal marriage and a ‘spiritual’ one, and if I found a partner to whom I wish to be married – we could do what homosexuals have had to do: have a “commitment ceremony” and take care of the other aspects (what happens in the event of illness or death) legally. This of course can be assisted if the legal spouse is cooperative with not being the beneficiary or having the ability to make medical decisions. But even if they weren’t willing, it can still be accomplished (though with more limitations depending on the laws of the state).
We have to remember that a healthy relationship is about finding ways to meet the needs of both partners, it is also about doing what is right for the relationship…
Linda says
Get a boyfriend that is available!!!! This guy should stay with his wife and keep his insurance. Btw, I had great insurance, divorced my ex 2 years ago, Cost me alot of money I didn’t have, I’m 54 years old and HAVE NO INSURANCE!!! I have a fiance who is a wonderful man and we are getting married. My advice is get rid of this weak man full of excuses.
Susan61 says
I did not need to read all of the responses to state my steadfast opinion (as someone who works in the health insurance industry) that this post is one more reason why this country needs SINGLE PAYER insurance that covers all – no matter if you are employed, unemployed, self employed, married, single. This system we currently have is f*cking RIDICULOUS and we are headed for a HUGE train wreck. Yep, people, in the next 5-10 years, if you work 40 hours and more for a corporation and think you have “good” health insurance you will not have the situation we have now because the system is UNSUSTAINABLE. You read it here.
Try being self employed. “Land of the free”? Yeah, just don’t get SICK or your life could be ruined. What a country. Most people are FORCED into jobs they don’t like in order to afford HEALTH INSURANCE. This, in the USA. Number 37 in the world for health care/health systems – that is right people. NUMBER 37.
I am a registered nurse, I know what I am talking about.
If you lose your job and you are unable to find work, you will find how UNAFFORDABLE health insurance is. This is a HUGE problem and as I said, we are headed for a catastrophe. Canada or bust. I would love to be a Canadian right about now.
jelly says
most ridiculous piece of **** ever. wow. this man is staying married to his wife just for some friggin insurance? and the girl is accused of being selfish? wow.seriously. what kinda world we live in now. honestly
i hope his wife finds someone and divorces him. then what? how is he gonna survive then?? what if his wife dies tomorro.then what?
hes a 49 year old grown ass man. he should be able to solve this and take care of himself without putting himself and his gf in this situation
ridiculous. i can never ever imagine being involved with a man like this.
Lady T says
I won’t comment on Stephen, but in defense of his girlfriend, some people still prefer to marry rather than live together. Yes, it’s 2013, but many of us operate under different, more conservative values. I don’t want to shack up with someone, and certainly not someone who is still legally married. I don’t blame her for wanting to get married and I disagree that the underlying reason she does is because she doesn’t trust him or that she’s insecure.
Sally says
I am on the flip side of this debate. I delayed my divorce for almost a year so that my newly -unemployed -soon-to-be-ex -husband could continue to receive my medical benefits. Granted, there was no boyfriend in the background pressuring me to divorce so that we could get married….but, if there had been, he would have soon become my ex as well.
Jason Ellis says
I appreciate your concern about being practical, and so must she be practical too.
I have a saying that is very simple but it is very true and it goes like this :
“Money is not everything, but in this City life if you don’t have Money everything is nothing”. I hope you got my point there. Cheers!
Kelli says
I have another perspective. I’m 56, my boyfriend is 50. I’m disabled and collect SSD. My boyfriend works. I also get housing due to my disability. According to Social Security, I would not be penalized for marriage because that is based on my own work record, but I would lose my housing.
B says
Here is a compromise:
You keep your insurance but give her the ring and the wedding without the state issued papers; you are still proclaiming your commitment and love in front of all your loved ones.
If she still insists then she is not very sensible and a selfish partner or she just doesn’t understand how hospital bills could mean financial doom for you both if something were to ever happen in which case she is still not sensible.
Hannah M says
I am in a very similar situation with several differences. I am the girlfriend of a man I love dearly with no present plans of marrying. After 1.5 years together and 2 weeks after I let him move in, I put two and two together and discovered he is in fact still married. I am sure we discussed it before it was relevant but how we missed discussing it again in all our time together I don’t know. My concern is not whether he is over his wife (and it IS wife no matter how you slice it) but whether she is over him. Also, now that we live together, is she going to claim half his shit, meaning half of my shit? He covers the entire family including step children with a $1600 per month insurance policy, stating she can’t afford it. I call bullshit. He is afraid if they divorce that she will want more, so instead he does everything she asks. Meanwhile I have one foot out the door and everybody loses. This would be far less complicated if he wasn’t now my tenant. I’d have put him on ice until he got his life together.
Shadowcat says
“Your girlfriend, Steven, doesn’t actually believe that you will support her unconditionally without a wedding to lock you in for life.”
So is that all marriage is? Then Evan. You don’t believe in marriage? Is there nothing more that it entails? I’m serious, then why do any of us bother? Are you saying it is a false institution? That is an actual serious question. I don’t think in this day and age it is a guarantee that you have locked someone in permanently. Why do we do it, even with children, it’s not a guarantee, but I think a legal promise.
Jennifer says
Suppose the situation were reversed:
The girlfriend was stalling on marriage due to health insurance (or some other seemingly practical excuse).
What guy would hang around for that long, if there was no immediate promise of a real future together?
Chris says
It makes a great deal of sense to hold onto a need such as healthcare from the perspective of the married person but it is not so clear cut in the mind of the unmarried partner. Sure it seems easier to avoid making fundamental changes in healthcare, bank accounts and assets. However, in my opinion having any kind of attachment or contact with an ex could be an opportunity for feelings to resurface as they say “the heart grows fonder with distance.” Any unresolved emotional attachments could possibly resurface and interfere with the new relationship.