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I know that these posts are sometimes provocative (in both good and bad ways), but I greatly appreciate your readership and am always trying to figure out how to do a better job.
Since starting this blog in 2007, I’ve answered hundreds of your questions, clarified my thinking about dating and relationships, and — somehow, some way — became a husband and a father. Hard to believe that this was the same blog that was once called “Advice From a Single Dating Expert,” but, well, there you have it.
We live. We learn.
And in case you didn’t know, most of what I do as a dating coach does NOT take place on this blog. It takes place on my weekly newsletter, which comes out on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Last week, I sent out a survey to my subscribers, just to hear what their most pressing questions were about men and relationships.
The response was overwhelming.
Over 1300 women took the time to fill out my survey last week. What became abundantly clear after, oh, the first 954 responses, was that you’re craving more information, more clarity, more POWER over your own love life.
The #1 thing you want from me — by far – is how to understand men.
That wasn’t a big surprise.
After all, if men were easier to figure out, you’d already be in a healthy relationship, and I’d probably be out of a job.
I’m kidding, of course, but I’m very sympathetic to your frustrations and have made it my top priority to focus my energies on helping you “get” what makes men tick and how you can make better choices with your partners.
Surprising (to me, anyway) was that the second most-important thing to you was “meeting men in real life”. Here’s a sampling of some of your questions:
- Where do you go to meet real men?
- Where are the real men after age 50?
- Where and how do I meet real available men that are close to my age (59)?
- Where can I meet men in the suburbs?
- Where do you meet men besides on-line and bars?
- How can I meet quality men in real life, when my life is so busy?
- Where do attractive, successful 46-year-old divorced women meet men who are 41-50 aside from on-line, a bar, and a gym? Where do guys who are divorced, or successful go? Seems like sophisticated guys go to their club or their boat or places we cannot find them? How can we locate our equals? Just want to find them! I can do the rest if I meet anyone similar to me professionally. Want to meet CEO or C level as that is my level…
Personally, I don’t know the difference between the “real man” of which these women speak and a “fake man”, but I am hearing an outcry for the one place that you can go to meet the man of your dreams.
And I was about to supply a few brilliant options, until I read this response:
- I would love for someone (you?) to stop giving pat answers to “where can I meet a great guy?” like, “join a club!” or “try meetup.com!” or “volunteer!” There has to be other ways, and I feel like every dating expert gives these exact answers every time. I guess I would want you to get a little granular and give more LA-centric answers, because really, LA is different from anywhere else when it comes to dating!
I see.
Out of all the free stuff I offer to you, my next endeavor should be to build a tool so that any woman in any city can plug in her ZIP code and the search engine would spit out the local spot where all the tall, dark, handsome, sophisticated, quality, “real” men are hanging out and giving each other secret handshakes?
Seriously?
There’s no bar or store or city or dating site that has managed to weed out all the losers, liars, chumps and dweebs, thereby preserving only the cream of the crop for your choosing.
Let’s flip this around for a second.
What if a smart, kind, funny, honest, successful man told you that he had a very important question for you that he needs to understand about women.
“So, where do all the young, thin, sexy, witty, optimistic, confident, understanding, self-aware women hang out? There has to be a place because I can’t seem to find a “real” woman who is my equal ANYWHERE!”
What would you say to this poor guy?
“In your dreams.”
“Have you tried Home Depot?”
“I hear some porn stars in the Valley are really sweet.”
“You can hang out in a yoga retreat but most women find it creepy if you hit on them there.”
You know what I’d say to him?
“You’re asking the wrong question.”
There is no one place where all the “quality” women or men hang out.
There’s no bar or store or city or dating site that has managed to weed out all the losers, liars, chumps and dweebs, thereby preserving only the cream of the crop for your choosing.
Quality men are EVERYWHERE. They’re just mixed in with all the rest of the guys out there.
Quality men drive to work.
Quality men play golf and watch football on weekends.
Quality men work 50 hours a week.
But unless you’re going to hitchhike for guys, crash his golf foursome, break into his house or stalk him in his office, you’re simply not meeting him in real life.
You’ve been waiting forever to meet him in real life. Hasn’t happened.
Which is why asking for the location of quality men is the wrong question.
When I said I want to provide advice to you on “meeting men in real life”, it’s not about WHERE you meet them…
It’s about this: “Who am I being that will attract the right kind of man?”
“Who am I being that will attract the right kind of man?”
Put another way, quality men don’t run around asking, “where are all the quality women?”
A quality man puts himself online, he smiles at strangers, he’s friendly at parties, and eventually, he meets women.
Some are great. Some aren’t. That’s the way it goes.
Same goes for you.
So while I’m excited to offer you more coaching and guide you through the dating process, let me make things very clear: don’t waste your time worrying about “where” he is. Worry about what you can control: who are you BEING that will make a guy want to ask you out and fall in love with you wherever you go.
I may joke about some things, but I take this responsibility very seriously.
After reading through every single one of your insightful, heartfelt questions on my survey, all I can say is that I’m honored you trust me with your heart.
I may be a guy, but it’s hard to listen to you and not feel sympathy, as you continually put yourself in harms way and feel like there’s no way to protect yourself.
Although I can’t promise that I will answer all of your questions in my new offering, I assure you that I’m digesting everything you gave me.
Thanks again for your kindness and generosity.
I very much hope I can repay you in some way very soon.
Warmest wishes and much love.
Your friend,
Evan
I think that many women don’t want to waste their time anymore going to events, going online, going to parties, in search of the one. By a certain age, women would prefer to hang out with their girlfriends, go to work and the gym and pursue their own hobbies (like yoga and book clubs that don’t offer men). So I think they are asking how to behave if they feel that way.
You have two choices: put yourself in the position to meet men or keep doing what you’re doing (hanging out with your girlfriends, pursuing your hobbies, your book club, your international travel). Which gives you a better chance of finding love? Given that, what exactly is there to discuss?
Seems to me that women want to keep their lives exactly as it is today – just with a man magically appearing in it. No work, no cost, no sacrifice, no shift.
There’s no magic. It’s effort and perseverance and all those other things that people routinely do when looking for a job…but not when looking for a husband.
Evan – I love what you are doing and you are so great at it. We have the power and you remind us.
Just tried the survey link and it is closed. Keep up the good work and making a difference.
adk #1
I disagree. I think many women over 40 want to meet men, but as EMK says, they want to find men outside of bars (where older men don’t really hang), and online. They want to meet men in real life. I still think there is a holdover with my generation about meeting men in a real-life, romantic way. And I think my generation remembers their twenties & thirties, when you could meet men at parties, through friends, classes, etc., at least more easily then we can today.
I was recently at two events where I happened meet to a single guy at each. One seemed interesting and attractive, so we made a date. On the date I learned some things about him that were dealbreakers for me (and would be problematic for many women). The second guy who approached me was obnoxious, and I was not even remotely attracted to him.
Not that I’ll give up on meeting men “in real life”, but it did make online dating seem a bit more appealing! At least you can avoid the ones you don’t want and qualify the others before dating them.
Tried Internet dating for 2 years and had exactly 3 dates. One lasted 10 minutes. 2nd much longer and consisted of a coffee and 1 drink (I paid for my own coffee. He sprang for the glass of wine.) this was followed by 6-7 messages from him as to when we would have sex together.
Other date was with a very nice man with an outdated, incorrect photo of him. He was nice enough, but absolutely no chemistry whatsoever, never would happen. We had a nice meal and he was a courteous man.
Not one other man made/kept a date. The whole experience was very time consuming and demoralizing. Sort of like dating my ex
With none of the perks.
I keep
Going out and doing what I like to do. I do not need to join a women’s knotting circle. But Internet dating was like looking for a job as an astronaut online. A lot better chance of it by getting involved in real life experiences and encounters. On line dating consisted of MANY men who were unavailable (married, busy, scared, or only I retested in sex. I can find that on the corner any day of the week. Why waste my time in the Internet revealing personal I formation to thousands of strangers?
Good for you MEK for finding your dream girl on line.
Personally, it was an experiment I was very optimistic about. I received many relies who h was good for my shattered ego after my break up. But the men were not really forthcoming in actuality.
This discussion brings to mind my favorite quote from The Wire: you want it to be one way, but it’s the other way.
The way I try to frame it to my girlfriends: any one event or night you go out, your odds of meeting The Guy are pretty slim. However, the more nights you go out and the more events you go to, your odds improve greatly in the aggregate.
Evan, I think the reason why that idea is so discouraging to your clients is because they tend to be Type As who have a hard time putting a lot of effort into things (going out) that do not produce immediate and tangible results (meeting a guy). Harvard Business Professor Clayton Christenson illustrated this beautifully in an essay of his called How Will You Measure Your Life? His theory is that Type A people who are very successful in their careers are those drawn to doing things that offer immediate and tangible rewards. But over a lifetime, the sum of making decisions that way leads to lives that are unfulfilled and unhappy.
I think what’s at that heart of these inquiries is a fear of or an embarrassment of online dating….I know a very attractive woman in her 30’s who literally BRISTLES at the thought of online dating, like that is one threshold she REFUSES to cross…but I think her FEAR of online dating is MUCH MUCH GREATER than her WANT to meet someone…has she met someone in the supermarket? (One of the ways she wants it to happen) Nope….
But to parrot Evan’s response — where are we? We are EVERYWHERE. But we may be 5’7 or 5’8 (oh the horror!) or not have as much hair as we did when we were 25 or aren’t “inspiring” the second you meet them….
TEDx conferences are a good place to meet guys, btw. Sit at the counter or bar by yourself (or better yet, next to a guy) for lunch or dinner (AND DON”T PLAY WITH YOUR PHONE)…don’t be afraid to say ‘hi’ next to the guy next to you and we’ll take it from there….
I totally agree with you Evan. You can’t expect a different outcome if you continue to behave the same way. You have to put yourself out there and enjoy it….enjoy life! 🙂
Evan hits the mark yet again.
I talk to men about this all the time, like the guy who complained that the best women don’t go to singles events. I told him, no, that’s a plus, because when you see those women at the coffee shop, at the grocery store or in line for the ATM, they’re not also being circled by 10 other desperate men.
Of course, you have to develop your social skills to meet people this way, but if you don’t have great social skills, you’re not going to get the pick of the litter in the first place.
The handsome, smart, passionate men are out there, meeting women not at mixers or on Match but in the course of their daily lives.
Haha I agree with you!☺
This article made me chuckle. Evan, with your quick wit, once again you explained things by flipping the questions around, and seeing from the other side. You are right it’s not where, but how we are being to attract the right man.
Thanks!
@adk #1
I feel that way and I am a guy :). I like yoga and bookclubs. When I did them I never met single and interesting/interested women. Anyway, just drop a woman off on my doorstep. Late 30s – early 40s, in shape, likes to laugh. Thanks
Lol!
I’ve been reading EMK’s blog for a while and he is honest & consistent on his advice. I just turned 30 and I’ve been single 2 years. I’m at the age where I explore all avenues of chance which include…. Friends hooking me up, meeting men at bars, parties, online, in the dentist office waiting room….etc. The thing that ALL women need to understand is finding “the one” takes time & energy on YOUR part. There’s no ABC’s & 123’s How To manual on meeting “the one” & there’s certainly not an Island full of single men that single women swim to where we pick out Mr. Right. Mr. Right is found by making the most of every situation where there is potential to meet someone. Keep your eyes & mind open to the fact that he could be anywhere & anywhere there is potential is where you should be. EMK is simply our voice of reason & men are men regardless of the postal/zip code girlfriends!!!! So here’s to all of us single ladies taking ownership of our dating destiny 🙂 Cheers
When I was in my 20s I was sitting on a park bench and a cute, shy kind of guy was sort of checking me out. Then, out of nowhere, a petite, non-sleazy, dressed-to-the-nines chick comes up to him, hands him a card, and says, “Hi. I am So-and-So and I’m looking to expand my social circle. Here’s my card. Give me a call if you’d like to get together.” Then she strode away, confidence oozing from every pore.
This was before online dating. “Guerilla tactics,” I thought. “She isn’t looking to expand her social circle–she’s looking to get married!” (Duh.) Desperate times, desperate measures. He looked at me, kinda shocked. But he wasn’t checking ME out anymore, I can tell you that. (She was really pretty.)
No moral or message here. Except that maybe you can meet men in a park if you are really, really ballsy.
Next thought: What if she’s like that ALL the time?
She’s a little crazy, but The Millionaire Matchmaker’s book has a great chapter on where to meet men (see video above).
Also, rock-climbing gyms are a gold mine.
As one of these allegedly nonexistent guys that all of your clients are looking for who is looking for a serious relationship himself, I have to say that in my on-line dating experience (actively using for at least a couple of years) almost all of the women are not trying (and I expect that many of your clients say the same about men). I may write my own book some day about how to write an on-line dating profile! (I’ve paid the money and had a stellar, accurate and completely truthful profile written and had a professional photo taken.)
The jerks are going to write to you anyway but I’m not likely to waste my time trying to write you a witty e-mail when I’m tired after a long day at work if your picture is a blurry head shot and your profile is two sentences long (giving me nothing to ask about). I already have to deal with the fact that most on-line dating profiles are not “active” users meaning most of my e-mails will go into a black hole. It’s also extremely rare that a woman initiates contact with me so it’s important to remember the numbers game involved here; even if I happen to click on your profile and think you’re nice I may arbitrarily decide to e-mail someone else but certainly wouldn’t mind an e-mail from you.
I don’t mean to “complain” but I think some perspective is appropriate. Several of my friends have married people that they met on-line. I’m definitely open to the possibility if I can find someone else who is also.
And sometimes we just have to accept that maybe we really aren’t ready to meet the “right” guy.
In the last year, online and off, most of the guys I meet are out for just one thing. I want more.
Recently I decided it was time to take a step back, and focus on other things for a change.
Don’t they always say, you find what your looking for, when you aren’t looking at all.
I think, to be fair, that the reason women ask “where are the tall handsome caring successful men?” is because of the manifest ABSENCE of such men in all of the situations we put ourselves in. Sure, the dentist’s waiting room, the mall, the summer barbecue, the online sites… you can meet plenty men who are short or overweight or out of work or not interested in committment or living with their mother or boring or shy or elderly or badly dressed…. but attractive, charismatic men – in your dreams! Evan’s postulate is that the attractive ones are just out there, mixed in with the unattractive ones… but the point is, they’re not! It is the stunning ABSENCE of these men in normal everyday situations that leads us to wonder if they are all holed up somewhere, in some exclusive yacht club or whisky tasting society or secret and totally exclusive gym or SOMEWHERE. It seems inconceivable that it you are putting yourself out there in varied social and work situations that you are not coming across at least SOME of these men at random – but you don’t! And I have to say that as far as cute, attactive, relationship -orientated women are concerned, they are, indeed, everywhere. Even as a woman, I can see that. I wish I was a man!
That’s right, Helene. Only one gender is filled with quality. Women. We men are so lucky that there’s 50 amazing women for every one man. You nailed it.
I completly agree with helen. And yes she nailed it. Damn spot on.
men ourdays are no longer men. They dont understand what in & out balance is, self awarenes even less so. Some are great tho, they go on their person growth & become men. But most, are lazy n happy with how they are. Women are by far more independent, brave, good hygene & self care … They can manage alone & raise kids & run several jobs & household. Men? Cant put up with half than that!! N always need a woman ( sorry a mother!!) some growing up & grooming & some bravery wouldnt kill u guys.
WOW, that’s some serious man hate? Makes one wonder why you are here?
“”””””””””But most, are lazy n happy with how they are.””””””””””” A sign of maturity is being able to be happy with who you are and what you have. Immaturity is when you are never satisfied, always comparing to what other people have and thinking you have to have the same thing, or better. Men are best served running from women like that. We aren’t your beast of burden. The purpose of our life is not to impress your friends or provide you with new shoes.
“Women are by far more independent,” Then you can get by without alimony, right? You’ll be letting your politicians know that you think alimony laws should be abolished, right?
“””””””””””brave,”””””””””””” So when the ship goes down, you’ll willingly go down with it so the men and children can live?
“”””””””””good hygene & self care””””””””””” Sorry but women do not have a lock on this. Most men I know practice good hygiene. What men are you surrounded by? Mountain men who never take a bath? But then, I’ve always lived around Navy towns so many people there are not true rednecks. Many are active, former active, or retired military. If you don’t have good hygiene entering the military, they will teach you have it. What exactly are you calling good hygiene anyway? Don’t most men take daily showers, use soap, shampoo, tooth paste, deodorant, cologne, etc…? I will admit that for most men, manicures and pedicures are not part of their routine. If that is what you want, don’t know what to tell you. Most men have not, do not, and will not ever have that as part of their routine. Men just aren’t raised that way. On the flip side, I’ve run into plenty of women who smelled bad, had bad breath, and couldn’t be bothered to run a brush through their hair that day. Laziness in this area is not the sole domain of a man. How many men do you see going to the store wearing pajamas? What is with young women doing that? The house dress? That man repelling garment worn by some middle age and older women? Yeah, we men don’t have a counterpart to that.
“”””””””They can manage alone & raise kids””””””””” Bull pucky! Yeah, sure you manage, with a healthy chunk of the man’s income you manage. Besides, most men I know want at least a full 50% of the time but most women fight tooth and nail to deny them this. So this is not a badge of honor for you. You asked for it, you got it, so stop whining about it. Besides, the rare times men do get the custody, they do just fine and are more likely to have to do so without child support from the woman.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-cordell/the-myth-of-the-deadbeat-_b_4745118.html
According to data gathered by the U.S. Census Bureau, “deadbeat mom” might actually be a more fitting term than deadbeat dad. While there are definitely more custodial mothers than custodial fathers overall, the data shows that women are more likely to fail to make child support payments than men, leaving the fathers stuck paying all the bills when it comes to the children.
Source: http://www.scfamilylaw.com/are-women-more-likely-to-fail-to-pay-child-support-than-men/
“””””””run several jobs & household. Men? Cant put up with half than that!! N always need a woman ( sorry a mother!!) some growing up & grooming & some bravery wouldnt kill u guys.””””””””
I have news for you. I groom myself quite well. I take a minimum two showers a day because I take one before going to bed and one when I get up. I don’t like to sleep feeling dirty or sticky, and like to start the day fresh. If I worked, or worked out, to the point of sweating, I take a 3rd shower. I can cook, and did most of the cooking during my marriage. I can do the laundry and typically do my own clothes. In fact, I have yet to meet a woman who is my equal in the home because my mom taught me to do everything that a woman used to do in the home, but I also grew up doing construction work and have done so intermittently, and still do it part time while i go to college, so the odds of finding a woman that can do as much as me regarding the home…very very minute. Maybe if you didn’t hate men so much, you might find a good one. Likely the good ones detect that simmering hate and avoid you. Maybe that hate comes from the fact that you need a man around more than men need you around, and hat really bothers you. Start with an attitude adjustment. Learn that we don’t need you, but many might like to have you around if yo made them feel good about being a man.
Bryant Park, NYC. swimming with attractive men at lunchtime- now I just have to get the nerve to make eye contact with one
Well according to this article you don’t want to even bother trying to find your man in New York http://www.huffingtonpost.com/juliet-jeske/dating-after-divorce-in-a_b_944133.html
Dating After Divorce In a City of Sluts
Its funny how “putting yourself out there” is the answer to almost everything out there. Putting yourself into a position where you are approachable, where you aren’t coated up to your eyeballs in friends/family/hobbies.
I recently went to a highschool friend’s engagement. I did know people but had no “base” (ie someone who would talk to me no matter what I said). I’m not sure what it was I was drinking but I made more of an effort to be bubbly, listen to other people, and pick up on others cues. I walked out of there with 4 numbers, 4 over 3 hours. I have a boyfriend as well so it wasn’t intentional at all!
Recently a friend of mine was lamenting (a little) about going travelling with her boyfriend because even though she’s very in love she remembers when she went backpacking alone a few years back she was more approachable then when she had this hulk beside her :p .
I don’t think you can really expect to meet someone wonderful without making some adjustments to your current life. Putting yourself in scary situations, adapting and so forth. Even when you find someone more adjustments will have to be made. I know it took a bit of juggling and a bit of tension to be able to see my boyfriend 3-4 times a week.
I must say there is a particular, very specific LOOK of guy many women are describing online — you know, the athletic, tall handsome, fit guy with a strong jaw and a twinkle in his eye — the George Clooney, Jon Hamm types — hate to say it — I don’t see a lot of guys who look like that (“Guy 10s” if you will)..I live in LA, on the WestSide and I rarely see that type (single or with a lady)….when I do, they are in West Hollywood…if you know what I mean….
Dear Ms Quality,
I’m Mr The Kind Of Guy You Might Be Looking For. I’d to meet you as much as you would like to meet me. Yes I am online, but I am also in the supermarket, the coffee shop, and the gym. Anyway, I’m surprised you have any interest, or if you do, you have a funny way of showing it. I tried making eye contact and smiling at you, but you ignored me. We actually ended up talking and I got your number, but now you won’t call or text me back. So I find myself wondering if you ever really wanted to meet me. And yes, my ego can only take so much of a beating here…
Yes Quality, I know I’m not perfect. I wish I knew what to say those 3 minutes when I had your attention in Whole Foods, but it does take some nerve for me to approach a woman I don’t know and I was a little nervous (I never invested in PUA training, sorry). I wish I had enough luck to cross paths with you not at the gym (you’re busy working out), the supermarket (you just want to get your shopping done), on the street (you don’t meet guys at the street) but at the…. bar? (Wait, I don’t go to bars.)
It’s OK though. Smile at me next time we cross paths and all will be forgiven. I’ll talk to you like nothing happened. If I get your number, I will call you, but get back to me, OK?
Looking forward to meeting you soon!
Bravo!
Michael17, you are spot on. I’ve seen very attractive men at the grocery store, gym, etc. They stare, follow me around some, but they don’t even say hello. One handsome guy said hello to me the other day as he was leaving the gym and I was going in, but I was rushing to class and can’t even recall what he looked like exactly, just muscular and tall. I’ve been single for almost two years now and haven’t dated yet. I’m still trying to figure it out. I was used to men pursuing me when they were interested. It’s not like that these days. They are afraid to speak to me. One hot, tall handsome guy went so far as to stand right in front of me at the produce refrigerator as I was looking in it. He stared at me some in different sections of the store. He never said hello. I was going to give him my business card, but the cashier was talking me to death and the handsome guy walked passed me as I was checking out and gave me one last look. Why didn’t he start a conversation with me or at least say hello? There is a huge disconnect between men and women these days. I guess that’s why online dating is so popular but it doesn’t work for me because I like to, have to, meet a man in person before I can tell if I’m interested at all. I guess roles have changed and women have to initiate the conversation? Men, if you see an attractive woman in whom you are interested, please let her know by going up to her and making conversation. I’ll take your advice too Michael17 and be sure to smile and show my interest as well. Thanks!
I honestly think that the women who never see a quality man ANYWHERE, either have delusions about their “standards” and what they can attract, or are simply not open to meeting someone truly decent.
When I was dating, meeting quality men was not at all the problem- they seemed to be everywhere, online and off. (but then, I don’t think that being 5’7″ makes a guy undatable, either) Finding one who was right for me was another matter. 🙂
No one is perfect, but it seems that everyone is looking for perfection. Tall and handsome won’t mean a thing ten years from now when what really matters is having someone with integrity and shared values in your life on a day-to-day basis.
It’s hard to find the right person when you start out looking for the wrong things.
Christina hit the nail on the head. It’s the sights, sounds,and feelings of the road, not the car your driving in.
“It’s the sights, sounds, and feelings of the road, not the car you (sic) driving in”
Well, maybe…but you have to admit, that road looks, sounds, and feels a little different behind the wheel of a Ferrari, than it does behind the wheel of a Yugo. 🙂
I see tall, dark, handsome men often. But until I get to know someone, I don’t know if they are “quality” or not.
Sometimes the men I see have rings on – there goes that! Sometimes I’m just not in a position to saunter up and introduce myself. (I may have my son with me…). But when I can, I ALWAYS make eye contact, smile and say “Hi.”
In real life, or online, we have to be open, we have to be positive, we have to get to know someone past their looks. That’s the only way to find “quality.”
There absolutely is a single best place where you can meet “quality” men (“C-Level” and otherwise well positioned): WORK. I met and dated CEOs and I met them at professional industry events, schmoozed, flirted, went to dinner, the rest is easy. Another way to meet “quality” men is to go to clubs and have a crew of girl friends who are into “hunting” for mutual introductions and support, etc. This is easily done when you’re under the age of 35 i guess, but for a 46 yo getting into a hot club could be problematic and a futile effort anyway because she’d be going against 23 yo models.
All other commonly recommended places are honestly a joke.
My two cents on Stacy’s #24. You can get away with maybe dating one person at work (and you better end up marrying each other). When you get into higher numbers, you get a reputation in the office. I know at least one guy for whom it has affected his career, he’s very smart and capable but people now tend to not take him seriously, which is very sad. When I was married, I thought dating coworkers was in theory a good idea, because you know the person so well. But when I became single, I very quickly realized by watching other couples in my office that no, it’s not worth a try.
I’m not even going to go into the subject of dating your managers, their managers, etc. – a disaster waiting to happen.
A colleague from another company is a maybe, depending on how big your professional community is and whether, if things go bad, it’d be likely to hurt you when you change jobs. I just dodged a huge one in that regard. Bad breakup with a colleague that left me shaking in my sandals, thinking that I was now blacklisted from wherever he worked, and could never apply to work there myself. Then I found out that his place of work would be a 70 mile commute for me… eh, nevermind!
An ex-coworker is probably your best bet. You’ve left the old job for a valid reason and so won’t be going back there again; and you’ve known the guy for years since you once worked together. Here, too, though, you can only date so many ex-coworkers before word gets out – you still need these people for references! I stopped at two 😀
I’m with Helene. I play little game in the morning on my way to work on the subway. I try to match couples in the subway car based on appearance. (I figure it’s an exercise in the dating market.) I’m always stuck with 4 to 5 ladies with no comparable men.
The groceries store is men with their girlfriends/wives/families
Restaurants are full men on dates
I go to three different gym locations
1. morning gym almost all women
2. afternoon gym all gay (I work in Chelsea, there is no helping this fact.)
3. evening gym ….
(ok there are single straight men there but it’s very jersey shore. So maybe I could screen until I found with a soul and a brain, scrub out all the heinous hair product get him to grow back his eye brows beat him until “Bro” has been removed from his vernacular I may have something.)
I don’t really expect to meet men at chichi art openings as Taken, Hoebag or Gay seems to be the norm.
My best friend always is around boys but its more that tattooed, punk, low brow art scene. (Not that I mind having a couple beers with some stoners as they debate the merits of thundercats. It’s usually hilarious and makes for an interesting circle of friends.)
Sayanta #17:
I wouldn’t advise Bryant Park as a place to meet “quality men”… maybe it would work for early 20-ies gals but not for those “extremely successful looking for their equal”. Highly successful men do NOT go to parks and takeouts for lunch (they either eat at their offices or expensive restaurants with their business associates. BP is populated with office plankton). Furthermore, they do NOT go to meetup events that cost $20, they do NOT join book clubs and they do NOT take single cruises on sale for $950. They also, for the most part, do NOT attend “networking events” organized by alumni clubs (even ivy league) unless invited as keynote/speakers.
Adopt the velvet rope mentality: if you can get into an event or activity easily and don’t have to belong to a curtain group to do it, the men you want aren’t there.
So what DO they do and where do they go? They freaking WORK 99% of their time, which is what makes them so successful in the first place. When they don’t work, they relax at places where most “regular” women would not have access to. This is not an illusion, this is reality. Golf with their buddies. Private parties thrown by NetJets and Nobu’s of the world. High-end night clubs. Private beach clubs in their communities. VIP seats at sporting events. Business class lounges at airports. This is where you go to find them. And, I am imagining that a “smart, successful woman” should be resourceful enough to do it.
P.S. my absolute favorite “pick-up technique” is asking men for a blackberry charger in airport lounges. Safe way to strike a conversation, he’s “rescuing” you which men love, he’s not surrounded by a bunch of hungry bimbos, and you know that he must’ve done something right in his life to end up in that $5,000 seat.
Interesting and excellent advice. Sadly I am
not in this economic class, but then again many men in this economic class are not necessarily seeking an economic equal. They are seeking some type of companion or peer. Generally money is not their objective.
I would say to all women aim high for the man you want and try to go where he might be.
An old beau of mine (from many years ago) was a Harvard grad and a true gent in every sense of the word. He ended up marrying a secretary in the company his family owned.
He does not need money from her. He needed and found liove and companionship. He was handsome, smart and educated. I dated him when I was 19,not really looking for a husband. He was about 25 years old at the time. It was not the moment for me or him, but I can tell you this handsome, smart kind man was very down to Earth and found the same in a woman.
So guys, next time you think a girl is not “good enough” for you, ask yourself “what does she see in me?” I have dated cheap guys, noncommittal guys, short guys , rich guys, fat guys, bald guys etc. what will make the relationship work? Attraction, love and compatibility. Period. I have dated handsome, smart, successful men that were unkind. NEXT!!! Don’t think women are so superficial when it comes to men. If I don’t like the way you smell or don’t have some type of interest in your physical company, your personality or you do not find me attractive, it will NEVER work. Relationships are not merely an economic equation for women. And for the record, I am a 5’8″ woman who prefers a man who is physically a bit superior to me. Call me crazy, but I am not comfortable with a much smaller man. I’ve tried it, done it. It didn’t work for me. It is hard enough to get a relationship of any type going. There are so many factors. I dated one man who had so many qualities I loved, but the sex was just NOT working. Tall, smart, educated, kind with plenty of money. and shared values. I was making good money at that time as well. Perfect on paper, not working in person.
This BS about shorter men is too stupid for words. I have met many tall men who tell me they will not date a vey petite woman because they do not feel physically comfortable. Does that make either party inherently less attractive? NO.It just means that both people do not feel the same level of physical comfort with one another.. END OF STORY l
Do t be a cry baby about it. 5’8″ is an average height for a man. It is okay if he’s got all the other stuff going on to make me feel comfortable and attracted. If he’s 6′ and there is nothing about him that is calling out to me, iPads. Why these vey short women reject men 2-3 inches taller than them as “too short” is beyond my comprehension. However, it is not every tall woman, just as it is not every tall man, that is comfortable with a partner of a much mor diminutive stature. Get real guys and girls!
I remember having a long talk with one man at a party. He was attractive and bright. I am a slim brunette. Towards the end of our conversation he said too bad you’re not blonde. Thank you!!! He prefers blondes.. Great I excused myself to go to the ladies room and did not return. Personal preference is personal preference. I do not think he is a jackass if he prefers blondes. That’s what he likes! I would have been wasting all my time trying to convince him otherwise. Who cares how tall you are? The girl either likes you or not. I have one female friend who will only date tall skinny men. She is short and pretty with a nice figure. But that is the type of man she feels comfortable with. So why should she be with a man she feels uncomfortable with? I try to keep an open mind about physical appearance, but if I am not comfortable – why bother? It’s not a “judgement”, it’s a preference. Some like winter, some lore fee summer. Who cares?
Ive been in long term relationships with these types of men. Engaged to 2. You are 100% correct. These are the exact places they hang out. You missed sporting events in quality seats.
Thing is MANY of these guys are narcissists.
They dont necessarily want high power women. They want a cheerleader, hotness, good sex, and some brains.
Dont expect to be swooned by these guys forever.
They love attention.
Its hard work keeping up because many other women are always trying to nip them away from you.
Yes there are many positive aspects but Im just giving you guys a reality check.
Best way to meet these guys is through a set up. Ask people if they know any single men. Ask everyone, nothing to lose.
Luck. Ive had early dinners by myself at a high end resaurant at the bar. Ive been approached by numerous men of this type just by doing that. Had my meal paid for etc.
I am quite attractive but not a bombshell. Its also about your personality, friendliness and demeanor. Be knowledgeable.
Take care of any weight issues!! Dont have to be skinny but these men do not like out of shape women.
Good luck if youre up for it. Its completely different than a relationship with the average Joe.
@David #5 and #20
I live on the westside of LA and 90% of the single women I have met in this city (I’ve lived here about 7 months) are on a dating site. Most of these women are incredibly attractive, successful and young. I’m not sure why your friend is so weirded out by it, since there are more people in LA on dating sites than I have encountered in any other place I’ve been.
The weird part is all the crazy messages you receive, but at least some of them are worth a laugh. I’ve met some decent guys in LA online, but have also met some completely awkward guys. There were no absolute jerks that I met online (although, I probably received messages and ignored them).
To the women who are complaining about the lack of “quality” men.
Is it you that I see when I’m out at the local coffee shop, sitting there behind a computer screen or book, absolutely unwilling to engage even a smile from across the room? Is it you in the grocery store, who is turning away from every last glance because you’re “only there for shopping?” Is it you who is the one who always trots out the “you could be a serial killer or rapist” line whenever you meet a stranger? Is it you that I met at a friend’s party who works 60-70 hours a week, and then hides out at home the rest of the time, to exhausted to do anything else? Is it you that I met in yoga class who has a “strict policy” of not mixing romance with your wellness practice?” Is it you that has your guard up in almost every situation because “you never know what could happen”?
I guess I’m just asking, because there seems to be a fair number of you out there, from my experience.
Stacy #27
A man who works 99% of the time, golfing in his 1% of free time, and hanging out in airport lounges, may be wealthy, but might not be the best match if you are looking for real companionship. Nothing wrong with a man who makes money, but does he have to be rich? Perhaps a man who makes a decent living, but is more well-rounded, with a bit more free time, is actually a better partner. Money is not synonymous with “quality”.
@Evan #16…………LOL You’re right,we’re so lucky to have THAT ratio. 😉
But in all honesty,(and I’ve said this in other threads on here) I understand at least a little where Helene is coming from. From my own experiences as a guy dating online for many years(too many…lol) I can search/peruse female profiles in my age range(40-55) and I can pick out many what I consider to be attractive “quality looking” women’s profiles.But when I do a reverse search putting myself in the shoes of one of those “attractive” 44 yr.old woman searching for an ‘equal” or “quality” man I can barely find 3 men.(taking myself OUT of the equation of course,because I’m not one of them)Leading me to always wonder:
A.) Who can these women be emailing back and or meeting on this site if any??
3 guys ?!! Boy they must be busy and lucky….lol
B.) Are everyone’s(men and women’s) expectations so delusionally out of whack that it’s close to impossible FOR SOME to find happiness? Maybe.
C.) Do women find things in many of the other mens’profiles that I’m missing? I doubt it……I think I know a good profile after 15yrs.
D.) Is it because SOME women for the most part put a lot more effort into making a “quality” profile with many pics in stylish outfits than their “busy” tall,dark,handsome,successful male counterparts?? Probably.
E.) Is it true that those types of men that are delusionally out of most of these women’s leagues DON”T HAVE TO DATE ONLINE ??? So unless you’re hanging out at The Yacht Club you’re SOL.
I was having a conversation with a female friend over the weekend who’s been online dating for a few years and I told her simply for the most part online a woman just has to attractive(good pics) and she’ll have at least some success online but men have to be attractive,tall,educated,have a good job title/income etc……just to have a chance.
I think the media(TV shows especially) over the years has had a hand in “brainwashing” people into thinking what’s attractive and what isn’t and if you’re not with someone who is you’d rather just be alone and /or wait………and wait…..and wait………………and many …….wait forever.Sadly,I might be one of them.
Ruby #30.
I agree. Which is why i put quotation marks around quality. If quailty to someone means c-level, they should realize what comes with it.
Stacy
Whoa…I go to Bryant for lunch. Guess I’m not ‘highly successful.’ Where do you get all this from?
Oh, to Stacy, in addition to my other comment, everything you’ve described about where to find ‘highly successful’ men sounds like an episode from Mad Men, not real life
I have never met a ‘dangerous’, criminal, creepy, or otherwise unpleasant man through Match. I have met about two dozen who are not my match at all, and two who I dated. But online dating is not disreputable at all. You just have to keep at it. Thank you EMK for point out that there’s no success without effort !
Sayanta
I dont watch TV (much) so I am not getting the reference to Mad Man. (another thing BTW – want to meet more men – cut your cable. Sitting in your apartment instantly becomes less appealing).
The point I am trying to get across is that highly successful men as defined by some of Evan’s readers do not hang out with the “general population”. If you think this isn’t accurate, please share with us when was the last time you met a CEO (like a real one, not of a company based in his rental apartment), a fund manager or even a mid-level trader or any other measurably successful man in Bryant Park (i actually work 2 blocks away from it, so i know the scene. For all it’s worth, if you want a good crowd in that area go to the Bryant Park Hotel bar downstairs right after work. There you see some real people).
Again i am not saying that money=quality. This is far from obvious to me, having dated my fair share of high-fliers I am not convinced I’d enjoy being married to one. But if THAT’s what you want, do NOT expect to meet them in the commonly suggested places…
Well said, nathan #29. Women are the ones who make dating harder by having both their guard up AND their expectations “too high” (the Instant Chemistry thing).
It is a numbers game – there is nothing like being online in a great place. BUT big question for you – how do we trust some of these candidates – I am in the over 50 category even though upper 40s myself. I have a tall, dark, handsome successful man who was really into me on the first date and wants a second date as soon as possible. Dream? Right? But what about his past? He walked out of an almost 20 year marriage and three young teens for a job in another state. And he thinks the only thing missing is the girl of his dreams. How do I know he wouldn’t put his job ahead of “us” the way he just did to his family? I don’t see that as something disposable. “Into me” is not enough!
That is correct! I agree! Full history of his past is a must. @AQ
Women these days in general that believe some perfect guy is going to fall out of the sky, and “chemistry” is going to let them know that he’s the one instantly. From there he will always “get her”. He will talk when he wants to talk, and not talk when she doesn’t. He’ll understand “what she needs” and basically never have any of his own feelings or opinions to get in the way of her fairy tale. That’s why women don’t want to put in the effort. They are far more focused on themselves and getting their feelings taken care of and not into building something on a two-way street.
Put in effort as in email you guys first on Match ? I thought women were not supposed to do that.
Second, the poster earlier was right, it’s absurd that women insist that the guy be over 5 8.
“Chemistry” (n): Perception bias that separates the “Guys Perceived As Frogs Until They Prove Themselves To Be Princes If You Give Them The Necessary Time At All” from “Guys Perceived As Princes Until They Prove Themselves To Be Frogs, Which Is Again Only A Matter Of Time Which In This Case You Will Give Them Unconditionally From The Get-Go”.
P.S.: Evan, I love your website and the general direction you’re pulling your audience towards. Keep up the good work!
Women may have a preference for tall men but do they all insist on it? Some do and some don’t. It is not absurd to have preferences both men and women do.
I would say many men also have their expectations too high and women are not the only ones with the “instant chemistry thing.”
@ Stacy #36:
“The point I am trying to get across is that highly successful men as defined by some of Evan’s readers do not hang out with the “general population”.
I don’t get it. If they don’t want to be around us, then why should we jump through hoops to position ourselves around them – faking a dead blackberry, etc?
Maybe it’s just me. I have never felt any connection to the Fortune-500-upper-management type. Actually, knowing how much politics and backstabbing they have to engage in just to stay where they are/keep moving up, I frankly find these guys pretty repulsive. I’d take an “office plankton” equal over any of them anytime.
as a girl who is 5’7, I do not feel badly about rejecting profiles from guys who claim they are 5’7 or 5’8. They usually are not. I feel very uncomfortable being taller than my date.
Goldie #43
So then you shouldn’t have a problem finding what you want. I was mostly baffled by the question “where do I meet c-level men” that one of Evan’s readers asked.
On shorter guys – don’t even get me started. Dating a guy who’s shorter than you (or not sufficiently taller to allow for high heels) could be nightmarish. Me, being open minded and all, I dated one alright. And in addition to a whole bunch of insecurities rooted in it, had to justify wearing high heels every freaking time. Yeah, that guy definitely wanted me barefoot as it was the only way he could be slightly taller than me. Disaster!
Stacy-
Lol- I don’t watch tv. Nice try though. At the same time, I don’t live in a cave, so I can use the Mad Men ref just by being out in the world and talking to people.
I’ve worked at big law firms, and the associates and partners would occasionally lunch at BP. Because they want to enjoy a nice day in the park just like everyone else. So since you’re so confident about who goes in and out of BP, I assume you’ve talked to each and every male who’s been in and out the park over the years? Good job
Have to agree with Jennifer #44 – I used to joke at one point that 5’8″ is Matchspeak for 5’4″! As a woman who’s really, truly between 5’8″ and 5’9″, I find it tough, not even on me, but on the guy. What’s the point in calling me and telling me “oh we’re the same height” when we meet face-to-face a few days later and you’re actually at my chest level? I’m fine with that, as long as the guy is smart, funny, and minimally cute – but I’m not sure if the guy is.
That said, I’ve met a few people lately whose profile says 5’7″ or 5’8″, and they actually are. Had no problems hanging out with them at all. They’re confident guys who have no hangups about their or my height, and that, in my book, is more important than how tall they are. They all say they’re fine with me wearing heels, BTW.
I couldn’t agree more with everything you wrote! I tell everyone that you can meet someone great wherever you are. There is no shortage of single men, it’s just a matter of being open, ready and available for the right man.
Ladies do you want to know where you can meet the tall, dark, handsome, smart, sexy, successful men as described by this post? “Hollywood is the answer” if that’s the kind of men u’re looking for, then that’s where you can meet a whole bunch of them hiding.
Since i have just told you the truth Evan was concealing, why don’t you ladies hurry up and go claim the man of your dreams before someone else beats you to it?
and please after you do, come back and share with us your own 20th-century Cinderella love story, i’m sure we are all tired of the ancient one (and they both lived happily ever after).
Saint Stephen-
Well, there’s Kate and William for your 21st century Cinderella story.
I wonder why some of these women don’t ask Evan what convenience store sells all the winning lottery tickets.
What is interesting to me is that there are so many women who believe that they should get an above-average man when they themselves are probably average.
A good, stiff dose of humility is my prescription for at least 60% of American Women who have been thoroughly brainwashed by movies and TV to expect ridiculous levels of entitlement.
Average male height is 5’9″. That means that half of you ladies are going to have to accept either NO GUY, or a guy shorter than average.
Oh, but really tall guys make you feel petite and feminine?
Okay, well girls with a perfect chest/waist/hip ratio make me feel masculine. Pardon me while I reject you for your slightly thicker middle. Or those soccer-player thighs. And how dare you cheat a tall man, who will ALWAYS remain tall, even if you won’t keep your shape forever?
The only reason a 5’2″ woman needs a 6′ guy is pure, unadulterated pride. Of the “pride-goeth-before-a-fall” type.
It is amazing how many women with a thicker-than-average butt, a bigger-than-average nose, a squarer-than-average jaw, demand a taller-than-average guy. Oh, the pain of desire…. life is cruel indeed.
Now, right about now, some gal is firing up her keyboard to start with the shaming language, calling me a loser, bitter, whatever. Heard it all before, ladies. Save your fingers. I’ve been called that a million times before, and you are unlikely to do it in a way that gets to me. Give it a try, though, if you like – you could be the first!!!
Anyway, on behalf of all men everywhere, I would like to apologize for the fact that we are not all 6’3″, rich, and famous. We tried. Really. Stay single, though, please. Don’t settle for us. Ever. Better to die alone than to compromise even one element of the perfection to which you are entitled.
On shorter guys — don’t even get me started. Dating a guy who’s shorter than you (or not sufficiently taller to allow for high heels) could be nightmarish.
This is the narcissistic American Woman’s idea of a nightmare.
Ever been to Haiti, princess? I have. Those people live in a nightmare.
You should be grateful that you live in such a safe, prosperous, wonderful nation that you could even equate such a teenage fashion sensibility to an actual nightmare.
What a shallow, narcissistic, adolescent thought. You should be ashamed of yourself. I’m ashamed to be from the same country as you.
I’m 5’8″. Six foot in heels. I’ve dated men my own height and had no problem with it, but it was them who would steer me toward flats. There are just some dresses and outfits that look better in heels and I LOVE heels. I don’t have a problem being 3-4 inches taller than my partner (In heels) but the few men I’ve dated shorter than me sure did.
I do avoid profiles now because of that. I search for men at a minimum of 5’10” and event then, I’ll be an inch or so taller in heels. I just don’t see many profiles (with my search criteria) where the man is 5’11” or taller so I set my searches for 5’10” and hope for the best (because 5’10” may be 5’9″ IRL)…
jack #52
I am an immigrant. So nice try. I am glad you have been to Haiti. I actually lived in a place kinda like that. Uhm… still want a guy taller than me!
@Jack Are you really short or something? I don’t understand why a woman wanting to date a man taller than her is such a big deal. You want to date a women who has a perfect chest/waist/hip ratio then go for it. Everyone has qualities they look for in a partner, some of those being physical. Do I prefer to date taller men? Definitely I do, this is one of my physical ‘likes’. I don’t think you can say it’s just women who feel entitled to more than they are actually entitled to, I think that is a human flaw in general, it can’t specifically be linked to one or the other of the sexes. How do we determine what someone is entitled to when it comes to dating? I don’t think we can. People are too complex for this. I’d say all you can do is be honest with yourself about what you want and what YOU think you deserve, and go out and try to find it. Whose to tell me I can’t have what I want? Jack, whose to tell you that YOU can’t have what you want? If you think it’s feasible, go for it. If you meet someone who can fill all those qualities and you’re everything she needs too, then that’s awesome. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. So yes, I tend to only date men who are taller than me, what’s it to you? I’m brunette, I wonder if I’ve been looked over before because I’m not blonde or because my chest isn’t big enough. Who cares? I sure as hell don’t. Like you said Jack, who wants someone to settle for them? Not me. So let’s lay off the girls who like to date tall guys, mmkay? Go find some women that don’t have that as part of their dating criteria.
Jack,
Thanks for mentioning the circumstance of reality. I feel like so many women regularly and convieniently manage to overlook that. Yeah, it’s called the truth.
I find men who insist on large breasts to be every bit as immature and repulsive as women who are 5’2″ and insist on men over 6′.
Both are shallow, and are willing to forgo someone of possibly high quality in order to fulfill a meaningless physical trait that one should stop caring about after they turn 18.
Seriously, it is discouraging to listen to women approaching 40 prattle on about such trifles even as their own dating potential drains away.
The really sick part of this is the toxic overestimation that these women place on themselves. If you could get such a man, you would already have such a man. They have selected OTHER women, not you. They are not single, you will not find them. They are dating younger, prettier, and sweeter girls.
Women who are obsessed with such superficial attributes are actually just insecure children who are seeking a quick-fix for their deep insecurity. It is easier to keep hoping to win the dating lottery than it is to do the necessary renovations to their egos and perform a realistic self-assessment.
Anyway, the math of the situation does not lie. tall, wealthy handsome guys are very, very rare. Therefore, the vast majority of women who desire that will NEVER get it. Ever. A few will luck out. The rest will rage about the lack of “quality men”.
The problem with “settling” on great guy who is “only” 5’9″ is that the blow to the pride is too great. They have convinced themselves that they are worth more, and like an overpriced house, sit on the market for years, drawing eye-rolls and snickers from others.
Including me! Evan may kick me off here for saying this, but I deeply enjoy every comment and anecdote where some picky woman is getting her karma by winding up alone. It is nature’s way of keeping balance.
Stacy:
Then I am sorry to see how quickly the US has corrupted your priorities. We have a way of doing that.
Evan, that’s a sweet post. Thank YOU for all your advice and for entertaining us readers of all backgrounds, including already happily-married lurkers like me looking for good advice to give our searching sibs, in-laws, and friends of both sexes.
I don’t think the question is really where the good men are. You’re right that they are everywhere. The problem is more the ratio of single women to single men. I just commented on another of your posts about that, and will generalize it here: If being in a relationship is your top priority, e.g., over a job, and you’re in a place where the sex ratio is seriously skewed against you, then you might consider moving elsewhere. This may not even mean a different geographical location, although that’s a possibility. It could mean changing fields: moving from sciences to arts, or vice versa, in jobs and hobbies.
While I agree with Stacy that work is a great place to find mates (Goldie, dating in the workplace can be handled maturely and without drama, although you’re right that it can also implode), the use of such phrases as “office plankton” and “real people” strikes me as distasteful. (Who are all the unreal people? Martians? Sayanta, you’d better watch out…) Talk about dehumanizing others. It will be all the other qualities that aren’t apparent from office rank that will endear you to another, and make a relationship last in the long run. Not job status.
Wow.
I missed stacy’s plankton comment. Her attitude is even worse than i thought.
This is just basic elitism, founded in deep insecurity. The truth is, most people are average. However, it is striking how many average people cannot handle that fact.
Let’s face a simple truth. The vast majority of truly attractive women in this world will not be reading or commenting on a dating coach’s blog. They are already in demand and are not likely to seek out dating help. Exceptions? Possibly.
But the majority of women here are probably average, and there is NOTHING WRONG with average. Unless you have a problem being average, of course. I’m average, and comfortable with that fact.
And yet, these women want a man that is notably above average, and above average in multiple areas. Taller, wealthier, more intelligent, etc.
And yet, they have only their average selves to offer in return. This creates a “no quality men” attitude among the average women. The most attractive women have no problem getting high-quality men. None at all.
The average women, in the spirit of adolescent competition, seek to acquire a man of the same “quality” as women who are much, much more attractive than they are. This is in an attempt to validate themselves as above average.
And this is because despite all the talk of “strong, independent women”, women still compete between themselves over who gets the most desirable man. And this strikes to the core of why women are obsessed with height.
When a girl who is 5’4″ insists on a man over 6′, she will often give the reason of “feeling safe and protected”. She is lying to you, and perhaps even herself when she says this. Protected against what? Three guys with guns in a dark alley? The extra 6″ won’t do you much good there.
The real thing she feels “protected” against is feeling as though she got a man that is inferior to her girlfriend’s 6′ tall guy. There are plenty of 5’6″ guys who can kick a 6′ guy’s rear end. So the “protection” thing is crap.
Please understand…. I am NOT HERE to try and talk these shallow women into changing their ways. Because that would lead to them “settling” and making some poor guy miserable. I am here to point out why so many women are crying and moaning about a lack of quality men, and how it is their toxic sense of entitlement and tendency to think of men as some sort of consumer product that they acquire to boost their image in the eyes of their female friends.
The truth is that these women are not quality women. The problem is that there are far too many of them. Shallow, petty, competitive and narcissistic. And in truth, incapable of loving anyone but themselves. And not even that in many cases.
I’d say good luck, but it is too late for most of them already. See you at the old folk’s home.
@Jack, again . . .
You seem to have a very angry tone when I read your posts and I’m not quite sure why. I’m thinking that all of these ‘stuck up’ women who think they deserve better than what they are worth, are overlooking men like you. It’s probably not for your height though, it may be for your attitude.
Why does being attracted to tall men make me shallow? I hardly think that my physical preference for tall men makes me shallow. I’m not willing to even entertain the idea. Surely, if I was shallow, someone by now would have told me so to my face, in my 26 years of life. 5’9″ers just don’t do it for me, what do you want me to say? Men may be more so, but women are visual creatures too, and I want a man who gets me excited when I see him.
I can agree with you that going for someone because of their wealth is a bit over the top. But hey, it’s not important to me, so I guess it’s easy for me to say that. Just because it doesn’t work for me doesn’t mean others feel the same way. You do have to have something to get something though, so if you’re searching for a rich or incredibly handsome man you’d better be what he wants too, or you’re SOL. Also, you’re being so sassy about how women are STILL single because all the good guys chose other women, like you’re trying to imply that the women that are still single just ‘aren’t worth it’ or not good enough. Chill out, there are good and bad single women and men, not EVERYONE decent is taken.
Lastly, liking tall sexy men has NOTHING to do with my pride. My pride is correlated to how I present myself as a person, how I treat others, how I maintain relationships with friends, family and SO, as well as accomplishing the goals in my life. When it comes to a relationship, hell yes my man makes me proud, shouldn’t he? And yes, he is TALL and HANDSOME :o) That’s not why I’m proud of him though. I’m proud of him because he’s a great person and works his butt off to make me happy. I’m proud to stand by his side because of his morals and integrity. If he didn’t have those wonderful qualities I would not be able to be proud of him, and therefore, would not date him. It wouldn’t matter how tall or sexy he was . . .
I actually find many of jack’s points reasonable, even if his tone is angry (which is an unfortunate distraction because of many of his points ARE good). What I see here is a mismatch in men’s and women’s understanding of what makes a quality woman and a quality man.
As Evan and other men have written before, many of the qualities that we women think make us spectacular, and therefore deserving of the top men, are not qualities that men consider all that important: being sophisticated, having multiple degrees, having traveled all over the world, being top-ranked in one’s career, being rich, dressing in the latest fashions. But we women think these are traits we should develop to increase our mating success, because that’s what we look for in men. And we think, if we have them, then of course we deserve any man of our choosing.
But based on my own observations, men are a lot simpler than that (not in a bad way). They’re just happy if YOU’RE happy and not too much of a pain in the neck. Being warm and attractive also helps. Beyond that? Depends on the individual guy. Many guys don’t seem to require much more.
Then when it comes to quality guys: it seems that several men who post here resent that women value education and steady and/or well-paying jobs in men. That is part of our definition of a quality guy. As individual women, we also all want different things. Some women value handsomeness and richness and height (I don’t). Some value kindness and willingness to share in household work (I do).
What seems to be driving much of the bickering in these posts is that people feel that they deserve success in love, because they themselves have qualities that they value in others – without understanding that the opposite sex may want something different. I remember Karl R going off on Sayanta because she said she wanted a guy who completed college, and thought to myself that sure, he could be upset with that, but he’d better understand that 99% of women want the same thing. Likewise, we women could spend less time congratulating ourselves for various accomplishments and work on developing the traits that men find attractive, if the goal is a LTR.
[email protected]: “Chill out, there are good and bad single women and men, not EVERYONE decent is taken.” Just to add to what you’re saying: and not everyone “taken” is decent! I don’t see any correlation between being in a marriage/relationship and looks, sanity, relationship skills, goodness/badness, or any one quality in particular.
And Jack cracks me up. Never a dull moment!!!
I have to take issue with the idea that is constantly bandied about on this blog, that men don’t care about a woman’s accomplishments. There may be some men who don’t care, but the men I know tell me they do care. One of my friends has complained bitterly about his ex-wife’s lack of ambition, and it’s one of the reasons they divorced. I’ve talked to several men who complained that they didn’t have enough in common with their ex-wives, and that they wanted someone who shared more common interests. Another complained about his ex’s lack of sophistication and education. Sure, they want someone who supports them and treats them well, but these other qualities are important too.
Erinlee-
What would be a beautiful irony would be for you to find the perfect man of your dreams who rejects you for one silly superficial trait because you don’t “do it for him”.
My whole point is that I think that having such superficial traits be deal-breaker attraction trigger demonstrates a person who has cultivated their values in an immature way.
I personally have no problem when a woman wants a guy who is at or above her height by a little bit. But when 60% of the women want an attribute that is only possessed by 15% of the men, something has to give.
Secondly, a lot of women are single because they spend an unhealthy amount of time polishing their 400-point list and fine-tuning the art of rejection. The unnatural desire for a very specific type of guy is keeping their attraction window as narrow as possible.
But that is what America has become – a giant customer service department that is supposed to supply you with a thrilling, meaningful, “special” life. Average? That is for those other plankton.
Helen-
College, physical fitness, activities and interests are things that are choices. They also reflect the interests and character of the person.
I have been very diligent in forcing myself to NOT focus on superficial attributes. This is a character building exercise. When someone tells you some silly attribute “doesn’t do it for me”, I think of them no different as a fat person who say that healthy food and exercise “doesn’t do it for them”.
It is the sign of a person who is morally lazy and not interested in working on their prejudices.
I date shorter men. My last decade worth of relationships have been with men between 5’5″ and 5’10”. I am 5’6″ and 136lbs but almost exclusively wear high heals that put me at around 5’10”.
Why do I do it? Frankly, and you may consider this to be a bit shallow, but hugging, holding hands with, and dancing with a man who is 6′ and above feels a bit strange to me. I like to have someone be a bit closer to my size as it feels like a more natural “fit”.
That aside, I have personally found that 3/4ths of the “under 5’10″ers” that I have dated have been unappealing to me not because of their size, but because of their own perception of their size relative to mine.
Allow me to explain, I like men with confidence regardless of what height they happen to be. Self confidence is very sexy to me as a woman. When I date a man who openly penalizes me for wearing high heals because it makes makes me taller then him and thus feel less masculine, I understand and respect his concern, however it does make me feel less attracted to him. This goes for all other attempts to talk me out of or criticize me for wearing pants that make my legs look long and lean (which I love), etc. In these cases, it is not the man’s height that turned me off, obviously, it was the lack of self confidence and criticism of my fashion preferences that did it.
To give a contrast, I first began reading Evan’s blog because I happens to accidentally meet someone online who I found to be quite amazing, and since I had no previous online dating experience, I looked to him for information on how to proceed. When the topic of height came up I warned him that I always wear high heels and would be publicly taller then him. He responded, and these are his exact words “I actually find that quite sexy, I realize that many men don’t like taller women but I don’t see it that way. Dating a taller woman makes me feel like I am with a super model!”. And that is how he makes me feel, like a super model. He shows my tall and toned self off to his friends and family instead of arguing with me about wearing flats when they are around so he isn’t “embarrassed by my height”. He lets me display my hard earned body in whatever way I find to be fashionably appealing and I love that about him.
Though it is not my preference, I can see how some average to taller women may want to avoid the self confidence issues of some shorter men and avoid the subsequent arguments, criticisms, and hurt feelings by dating taller. After too many nightly fashion arguments, had I not had the preferences that I have, I may have done the same.
Cultural standards being what they are, I have never expected women to date men shorter than they are, although if they want to, it does expand their options.
The beef is with women who want men substantially taller than they are, and are often willing to compromise on character in order to do so.
I have some physical features that I prefer in women, but I have abandoned them many times when I have met an amazing girl with a personality that I loved. Bad complexions, unusual physiques, awful fashion sense – I didn’t care. They were great girls with a magical quality about them. I just wanted to be around them.
What if I was the kind of person who felt that a poor complexion just didn’t “do it for me”? Well, I’d be a kind of person I would never want to be.
But then, moral and intellectual laziness have never been my way of being.
This whole tall issue has been beaten to death. Yes, women prefer tall men. But only 15% are over 6 ft. So it’s kind of like musical chairs-some women will get left out when the music stops. Such is life.
By the way, not every woman is this obsessed over height. The best example of an open-minded woman is Tina Fey. She’s 5’4″ and her husband is 5’1″. Seems like it’s working for them.
Also, there are many women who date men who are stockier and less conventionally attractive who also happen to be tall because they value it so much. Sometimes, height is the only conventionally attractive trait that these women indulge. Most women will accept men who are taller than they themselves are, but preferences get skewed online because of rampant lying about height and the cafeteria mentality fostered online – the same probably goes for men and female body type.
I think one of the problems is that looks and the success level many of these women are looking for are largely inversely correlated. Go to a white shoe law firm or a executive convention and you’re not going to be surrounded by notably attractive men. Success…. takes time in hours per week and decades per lifetime alike, which is also something to consider when looking for a long term partner. Men aren’t expected to dial down their careers upon marrying and having kids. If a successful woman doesn’t want to make that choice either, it may not be a good match. Additionally, a bad work life balance can put a strain on a relationship. What’s the point of marrying someone who you seldom see? Also, I think appearance/success/age/intelligence caveats are inherent in the, more common question, “where are all the men/women?” I sat on a train composed of half women half men in actuality, but in my myopia, there are three men – a conventionally attractive man who is not my type whose presence I briefly note, an attractive perfect match for one of my types that I haven’t seriously indulged since high school because of the associated character traits, and another attractive type match. The other men are middle aged, balding and overweight… they’re still men, they may be good men… if I were looking for an extremely successful man – i’m not – odds are they’d look like those guys, but they don’t register on my radar as romantic prospects. Most people from both genders do this, even though it sounds bad on paper, so it does need to be addressed.
Part of the problem is that guys seem to want to feel as if they’re on the “come up” as far as female attractiveness is concerned – like women want men who are taller than themselves, men want women who are at least slightly more attractive, so tell an average looking woman to look for an average looking guy and she’ll consider it or look at you like you’re crazy because she already does that. Tell an average looking woman she ought to look for below average looking guys if she wants a committment, she’ll understandably cry foul and/or try to expand the depth of her dalliances with average and above average looking men. I do agree that quality ™ men will come out of the woodwork if they deem a woman quality ™ using whatever rubric they use – which often seems to include but not be limited to level of slenderness.
I have to slightly disagree with jack.
Women are not brainwashed. Their bodies are telling them who is “right” and who is wrong. Unfortunately its who would have been “right” 100,000 years ago.
They want strong resource gathering males who are respected by the rest of the tribe.
BUT, these evolutionary impulses will not lead them to men that will make them happy. That’s not what they evolved for.
So anyone looking for Chemistry as an essential guide to finding the best mate, must become aware that this will inevitably lead them down the wrong path. Stop listening to what your body is telling you. Its lying.
Jack ~
I have been rejected before by a guy I really liked. Why does this have to be such a big deal? My preferring tall men has NOTHING to do with my morals and values! It’s a physical preference. I can’t change what I’m attracted to physically no more than I can change what I am attracted to intellectually.
I never said a guy being short was a deal breaker, I said I would not date a man who lacked a good work ethic, morals and integrity. Apparently I should not have used the phrase “do it for me” . . . that one really strung a chord with you. The way you use ‘superficial’ to describe my point of view is WEAKSAUCE. Just because it isn’t important to you, doesn’t mean it’s superficial. Actually, it seems quite important to you as well, or else we wouldn’t still be talking about it.
So now that I’ve pointed out that height is not a DEAL BREAKER but simply a PREFERENCE, would you still like to tell me that I have cultivated my values in an immature way? Oh please! I’m sure there are women out there who are just the way you are trying to describe ME, but I promise you I’m not one of them. Don’t play up my words, lets call a spade a spade.
Just like you, I have abandoned physical preference for love too. I’m 5’8″ and my first boyfriend was 5’4″. He’s an amazing person and not once did I let his height stand in the way of a relationship. It’s just that, the tall guy is going to catch my attention first. A man is going to ask out the woman he finds physically attractive, how is this wrong? I’m exhausted with this topic, if you don’t undertsand where I’m coming from after this comment, than I doubt you ever will.
Jack,
“The most attractive women have no problem getting high-quality men. None at all”
This, of course, couldn’t be further from the truth. There’s plenty of high-quality men married to completely plain in looks and spoiled women and there’s plenty of highly attractive women (strippers, mid-level models) who are married to comlete losers. Social status, background, and lots of other factors go into this. People are not matched in life based on their looks alone.
Wow!!.. jack please don’t stop posting…. these ladies need to hear the bitter truth… and i wish i was bold enough like you to say it. more grease to your elbow.
Stacy #72: jack didn’t say “looks.” He said “attractive.” There are many aspects of a woman that can attract a man besides her looks, such as her personality and interests.
Erinlee and zaq: you’re right that women aren’t “brainwashed” when they express preferences for certain physical types. Yes, it is evolutionary. But zaq, where I disagree with you is this: it is STILL relevant today. Taller men earn more and live longer; this has been calculated on a per-inch basis. More earnings (i.e., greater access to resources) and longer lives are of interest to women evolutionarily because it predicts greater survival success, both for the women and their children. Interestingly, no such correlation between height and success has been found in women, except that very tall women have shorter life expectancies and greater cancer risk.
jack #67: you seem to imply that you’re the only one who makes exceptions for beloved people who don’t match your preferred type. The good news is that the vast majority of people do EXACTLY the same. So do not consider yourself “morally and intellectually” superior. At the same time, you can be encouraged to know that people, both women and men, are better than you seem to think.
Can’t help what you are attracted to?
That is a lazy, cowardly approach to life. Closer to the truth, you don’t WANT to change what you are attracted to.
Listen to how stupid the following sounds:
I’m not attracted to eating healthy.
I’m not attracted to paying my taxes.
I’m not attracted to obeying the law.
I’m not attracted to being polite and civil.
I’m not attracted to going to work in the morning.
See, the problem is that people understand that in every area of their life, sacrifice is involved, and that they will only get some of what they want.
But American Women seem to think that this does not apply to romance, and they think that the very fact that they crave a tall, rich, funny, intelligent guy means that they should get one. This is called entitlement mentality.
Guess what – romance and marriage is like EVERY OTHER human experience: Full of compromise and sacrifice. And the smart person learns to select people with attributes that matter, rather than superficial attributes.
Maybe you should work on your character and learn to spend more time paying attention to the inner person of the men you date. If you were more attuned to character, you would probably care much less about superficial physical attributes. But the truth is that you ARE shallow, because you are so attuned to something like height.
And are you women ready to be dumped later in life if you gain weight or get wrinkles (haha – “if…”) and you just don’t “do it” for your guy any more? Or do you expect your man to look at your “inner beauty”?
It is the taste/preference of the immature mind.
Helen:
You don’t get it. They are not “exceptions”. I consciously avoid cultivating a “type” of girl I like. If there is no specific “type” then I don’t have to “compromise”, do I?
The problem is that people have an image in their mind, and a script they want to follow, and they are looking for a person to fulfill the fantasy they have grown in their mind since they were little girls.
And I DO think of myself as morally superior to many people. Sorry if that seems arrogant, but when I see people acting shallow and immature, what other conclusion can I reach?
And just to repeat the point one more time:
Most women will not get the tall, handsome guy that they crave, since they are only a small portion of all men.
This will break many womens’ hearts – and they are hearts that deserve to be broken because they are hearts full of prideful thinking, only interested in being shallow.
It’s simple statistics – and the wise woman will learn to cultivate a taste for what is realistically available, rather than hoping against hope to win the romantic lottery. Which most of them will not. Life will tame your pridefulness one way or another.
For the most part, I agree with Jack. People ARE too focused on superficial traits. People DO expect their partners to give them the world. People have preferences that they codify into arbitrary dealbreakers, as if they can’t be altered. People do expect to land the “best” man or woman, often without considering whether they can get that person or whether that person is a good long-term fit.
If you happen to disagree with Jack (and myself in this instance), please explain the error in his logic instead of attacking him personally.
Same with our friend Nathan, who has been nothing if not diplomatic in light of the ad hominem attacks on men.
jack,
the amount of time and effort you put into bashing “american women” heads for wanting tall men suggest that you’re not that superior to anyone really as you clearly have substantial amount of resentment and anger towards these women. May be your energy would be better spent working on those issues… just an observation.
Evan,
the problem with this logic is that people want what they want, and nobody is a bad person for wanting it. Getting angry at women wanting taller men and trying to change it is akin to defy gravity… it is amusing to watch someone trying to do that and getting angry that it doesnt work, but is there really a point?
I’m not suggesting that Jack couldn’t better finesse his tone, but I’m more on his side than yours.
People want what people want is nonsense, and pointing this out doesn’t mean that they’re “bad” for wanting it. They’re just delusional.
For every guy who says he wants a 26-year-old, thin, busty, easygoing, playful, patient, understanding woman who has Ivy League smarts but isn’t overly driven or critical (Every man is raising his hand right now), there are virtually NO women like that. And if a man says, “I want what I want. I’m attracted to what I’m attracted to. And I’m not going to settle for less,” you’d rightfully pillory him for having his head in the clouds and not giving a fair shake to “normal” women out there. Women with junk in the trunk. Women who go to therapy. Women who have mood swings. Women with stronger opinions or ambition.
It’s the same thing. If you make “six feet tall” a dealbreaker, you run a high risk that you end up alone, as only 15% of the male population is that tall – and this doesn’t factor in a hundred other more important attributes that make him a good man.
That’s what Jack’s trying to say, I believe.
Argue away, but I’m with him, for the most part, in principle.
I actually agree with Jack and Evan’s overall point. However, the presentation is quite condescending. I come here to get a male point of view on dating, not to be beaten and insulted into submission (I also find the male bashing to be condescending).
Jack, the vast majority of American women marry average guys. Exceedingly picky holdout singles constitute a minority, as stats readily show. Show me a woman who’s unhappy with her husband, and odds are there’s a man who feels the exact same way about his wife.
Aren’t there multiple choices here as well? A woman *could* “cultivate a taste for what’s realistically available”, she could stay in stasis holding out for a hero… or she could consciously work towards becoming the woman that her preferred type of man wants/notices. It’s going to mean doing way more than just showing up at the right bar – which admittedly sounds presumptuous – however.
As a single guy, I find myself agreeing with Eric in that many women don’t seem to be trying, Nathan in that many women are putting up “too many” hurtles, and Jack that many women have unrealistic expectations.
I’m going to ask the women on here some questions:
(1) You meet a guy in the grocery store, have a “nice” conversation (nothing earth-shattering, but he seems like a decent guy), and he calls you a few days later. How likely are you to follow up with him? Really…
(2) When you see a guy you find attractive, how likely are you to smile at him? Do you look around the room, or do you just look down at your computer/book/shopping list?
(3) What does it take for you to go on a second date with a guy? Are you hooked on “The Chemistry Thing” and expect things to be like in the movies, or can you have some patience for things to develop?
(4) Do you do online dating, and if you do, do you actually write guys you find attractive first? Or do you just wink, thinking that winking should be enough work for you to do, just because you’re a woman?
Those are the questions I can think of for now…
I’ll tell you a story….
I’m on Match, and a woman winked at me. Her profile was nice, nothing all that compelling, but behind all the cliches and whatnot, I could see a possibility that she and I could get along. She’s cute—not a “10”³ but a “6”³ or a “7”³ at least, with a possibility she might be even prettier than her pictures, and in her late 20”²s. She also seems to be a nice girl looking for a serious relationship.
One problem: She lives 60 miles away. Furthermore, she is on the other side of a large metropolitan area. To get to where she lives would require on my part an 80-minute drive each way, and a few bucks in tolls. I did the math in my head and decided that it was too much effort to pursue. Her nice but not that compelling profile wasn’t enough to sway me.
So I write her, thanking her for the wink and telling her (honestly) that I was flattered, but that I would like to date someone closer, and wishing her “Good luck in your search!”. She writes me back…
“I work most of the time in [the town were I live]. Oh well…”
What??? She didn’t say that anywhere in her profile, and as she winked to me, she didn’t explain that to me in first contact. I write her back telling her that I had no idea, and “why don’t we meet for lunch”. Never heard back from her.
OK, now, from her perspective I probably blew it. A guy whose first communication to her is “you’re too far away” is NOT the man of her dreams. And then just asking to meet for lunch so fast when she said she worked nearby, probably made me look like a jerk. I said I wasn’t willing to drive 60 miles to see her, but (putting down what I am guessing is her thought process) I’m expecting her to meet me for lunch without much of a warm-up because it’s convenient for me?? What am I after really??
BUT… before this woman uses this example that “there are no good men left”, she would do well to consider some things…
(A) Take some responsibility for her communication OR her expectations. Expecting a guy to pursue a woman who lives so far away, *whom he hasn’t even met yet*, is not realistic. She could have let it be known that she spends time near where I live in EITHER her profile OR in a first email.
(B) Chill out about the whole “stranger-danger” thing. I proposed meeting for lunch in a public location. Even without much of a communication warm-up, it’s not as crazy as it sounds. Really. How many times do we each entrust our credit card to a stranger when we’re shopping or eating at a restaurant?
(C) At least cut me some slack. Write me back and say you need an email or two before you would feel comfortable meeting for lunch.
Anyway, to sum it up, this woman did not take any responsibility for her communication, and then she had these silly hoops that a guy has to go through. I hate to say it but she is not that uncommon among the female gender, and she would have much better results if she would change her ways.
Michael17 – I have gotten the “you live too far away” more than once because I do live on the “other” side of town. Personally, I am not going to put in my profile that I’m willing to move for the right guy or that I have a flexible schedule and I’m willing to drive to meet you. How desperate does that make me sound?
I find it interesting that while you do take some responsibility for your actions you blame her lack of communication for the lost opportunity. Even if you thought she was too far away, it couldn’t have cost you too much time to email her a couple of times to see if she was worth the drive. She didn’t give you a second chance, not because of the reasons you listed, but because you told her you had already made up your mind she wasn’t worth the drive.
Gina, thank you for your response. I have to say though, that it only shows how crazy women’s expectations are.
Gina, this woman lives not just “on the other side of town” but 80 minutes and a few bucks in tolls away. I never met her. Her profile is full of the usual cliches. She winked! What, is she too lazy to write a proper email? Why does she think that a guy would spend the effort to find out over email whether she is worth driving to?
Let me ask you this: If a GUY who lived so far away from you winked at you, would YOU try to find out over email whether this guy was worth meeting up with anyway? Most women would say no to this. Alright then, what is the difference when you reverse the genders?
Gina, you and the other women on here have to stop thinking of yourself as princesses. Your gender has an entitlement mentality that doesn’t serve you. Your dating life will improve markedly if you do this.
Michael,
I would have emailed you back something like this (if I really liked your profile and wanted your attention):
“Thanks for your response. I actually work in your area, but understand that distance can pose a problem. (then make a funny quip about something in your profile), Have a great day!”
You would have learned this new information without me looking like I was trying to talk you out of your position. Frankly, she didn’t know if distance was the whole reason, or if you used distance as the reason but didn’t find her photos or profile attractive. If the latter, and she’s trying to overcome your “distance” issue, she may feel and look desperate for stranger she has never met or even talked to.
But I’d cover my bases and get the info out there like I showed above and let you follow up if you wanted. Personally, I’m with you. I have a busy life, a child, and driving 80 minutes continually isn’t realistic for me personally. It’s not that someone isn’t “worth” it; it’s that logistically, it’s a complication I wouldn’t go looking for by targeting those people online.
This girl KNEW she was in your area often and she should have sent a cute introductory email offering that information because it’s likely that’s why she’s expanding her search to your side of town!
Helen #74
Taller men live longer lives ???
Wishful thinking on your part !
From a science abstract:
“Findings based on millions of deaths suggest that shorter, smaller bodies have lower death rates and fewer diet-related chronic diseases, especially past middle age. Shorter people also appear to have longer average lifespans”
This also, applies to most other animals as well
Yes taller men, more attractive men do better on average than short and ugly ones. The selfish gene is continuing to have an affect.
However there are plenty of short ugly successful men out there.
BUT, the point I was making was that following the impulse will not make women HAPPY. It is there for procreation. Once that is achieved, the woman has no further value.
Thanks Gem. Thing is, I wrote her back when she said she worked in my area, and in this email back to her suggested we meet for lunch.
If I’ve ALREADY hit it off with someone, THEN I’m willing to put in the effort to see if something is really there, even if it means some driving. BUT I’m not going to put in such a long drive for someone when I have such little to go by. Especially because most dates are “one-and-dones”. My reluctance to drive in this situation might not jibe with the fantasy of a lot of women (not all women but a lot) that “he’s willing to do anything to be with me even if we haven’t met”. But again, I really wish more women would (A) consider if their expectations are realistic and (B) take some responsibility for their communication. The point of my story (#83) and my response to Gina (#85)….
In principal, I am in overall agreement with Jack’s message, but his words are laced with so much personal anger and bitterness that I want to turn away; not that it will matter to Jack. 😉 When I read feelings such as his, I sense an individual who has been repeatedly deeply hurt and let down by society, and their pain lashes out as anger.
For what it’s worth, I think I’ve shared here before that I fell in love with and married one of the “average” guys Jack refers to. Honestly, I have no doubt that most women thought of him as below average. When we first met, I could be just as attracted to looks as the next woman, but when it came to what I wanted in a boyfriend, I looked for very specific traits: respectfulness, humor, kindness, and patience.
I didn’t feel a physical attraction to him; our first kiss wasn’t exactly the magic of movies, yet he treated me exceedingly well, and of course, he adored me. 🙂 As time marched on, we grew as a couple and as individuals, and I fell hopelessly in love with him, and the physical attraction slowly became white hot. If I had stopped at the initial lack of “chemistry,” I would have missed out on some of the best years of my life.
My own daughter follows the same general pattern that I did. She is a beautiful, mature, educated young woman who feels that while looks and success are nice, it’s how he treats you, and whether he truly accepts all of you without judgment or criticism, that matters most of all. Everything else is fleeting.
To Jack, while both sexes, in general, are exceedingly guilty of judging others by their looks and wanting what they want, no matter how immature, narcissistic, cruel, unfair, etc. it may be, it is what it is, and no amount of rallying against the system is going to change this. All any person can do is be the best person they can possibly be for “them,” not others, and hope to meet someone who will love them as they hopefully already love themselves.
Though it may seem impossible to find or believe, there are women who do look beneath the surface and on any given day, there are countless very average looking couples getting married. The only reason why most women seem to be the fairer sex is because we have more tools to work with. A guy is usually at the mercy of whatever life gave him, but average looking guys CAN and DO look like princes in the eyes of the only one that matters.
It’s hard to keep a heart and soul open that’s been hurt, but that is what one must do; not only if they hope to find real love, but for themselves as well, which is really the most important reason of all.
Stacy #77: agreed.
Many of jack’s points may make sense. Where people take issue is his claim of being “morally superior,” when it is clear that he has not just anger issues, but more concerningly, hostility. Several times he has expressed his desire and glee to see women hurt in the dating game. He even started in on Erinlee, a complete stranger, gloating in a hypothetical situation in which she is rejected. That is, to put it bluntly, creepy. Hostility is not morally superior. It indicates a person to be avoided.
Evan #79, the comment about how women would “rightfully pillory” a man with high expectations: I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t, and probably a lot of other women wouldn’t either. It’s none of our business. If other women are anything like me, they’d just be amused and then go about their business. They wouldn’t wish the guy ill or want to hurt him in any way.
@Ruby #63
I think helen was right in her #61 comment
Most successful Men don’t seek for equally successful female partners, cos they do not want to be engaged in constant friction and power tussle. rather they look for someone that would make their life easier and more pleasurable, even if that means settling for a bimbo, they would care much less. e.g. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill gates, tiger woods ex-wife and current girlfriend… i could go on and on, but i don’t want to bore you with my long list.
I believe those Men you talked about are the so-called average men who wouldn’t mind putting up with all the *bullshit* because they need all the support their equally average career driven wife can offer. Is obvious this topic was talking about successful men, not the average ones.
Saint Stephen
Melissa Gates is a very intelligent woman- how did she get on your ‘bimbo’ list?
Diana-
Women with your attitude are quite rare these days. You deserve much credit for being this way even as the tide of culture would be quite happy to push you down the path followed by the majority. You are a type that gets more rare every day.
And whoever wants to get on my case about being creepy, talk about ‘anger issues’ and such…. whatever.
I offer no apology – it would indeed be satisfying to see a person who is stubborn and picky end up losing out on their goals by the exact same kind of thinking that they use on others. If seeing karma find its way to a person is creepy, then color me guilty, ladies. I refuse to discuss such an important topic with cool detachment.
Tact and diplomacy are fine tools, and there is a place for them. I do not feel that this is the place. If you can find yourself in partial agreement with me in spite of my tone, then it only shows how true my words are. Would you agree more if I was less intense? I bet not.
Michael17
“Gina, you and the other women on here have to stop thinking of yourself as princesses. Your gender has an entitlement mentality that doesn’t serve you. Your dating life will improve markedly if you do this.”
Did you just call me a princess?!?! Really? You know nothing about me or my situation. Be very careful what you assume.
I live in LA where the drive time can easily be two hours to see someone on the other side of town. And I’m the one who’s reached out with an email and got told I live too far away. I have driven over an hour to meet up with several dates. So yes I do respond to people who may require a drive to meet. Personally I think it’s a bit of a fantasy to think that the right guy for me lives within an arbitrary mile radius of me.
So don’t presume to lecture me on being a princess and having an entitlement mentality. Presumptuousness is an unattractive trait.
Didn’t we just rip someone a new one for considering marrying someone she wasn’t attracted. Maybe some people have the will power to manufacture chemistry if a relationship takes that much effort in the beginning I can’t see how that that can help with all the other trials of commitment.
I’ve never been able to feign interest beyond the 3 month mark.
If you want call it lazy go ahead. But life is hard a complicated. There are too many distractions that take away for a long term relationship as it is. I can’t imagine having to force chemistry day in and day out. I feel like its akin to religious people say that atheist aren’t trying hard enough to believe in god. I’ve given a few different faiths, sects and services … eh not for me so much.
@ Jack
I happen to like most healthy food
Taxes and being law abiding beats jail
I’m polite because it’s easier than being confrontational
Working to pay the rent beats being homeless
All of these examples have a good outcome and a bad outcomes. I guess if you really hate being single it may be an apt comparison but for most of us being in a difficult relationship is far less appealing. Yes, in long term relationships will face illness and adversity but most of us need that initial chemistry to get to that bonding phase. Being single is always ideal but its better than being with someone you don’t want at least to me. I don’t think that’s selfish or lazy I’m just not that desperate for companionship.
@Sayanta
The MBA Melinda got from Duke the B didn’t stand for business. She went to super secret bimbo school. PS that reasonable hair cut, totally platinum blonde hair and those blazers are covering super secret invisible boob jobs. Cutting edge of technology.
How is Zuckerberg’s fiance a bimbo? She went to Harvard with him, and while there are some bimbos in residence, she does not in any way look like one. Neither she or Melinda Gates look mismatched or are appreciably better looking than their partners. Check your facts on those women before you call them gold-diggers or bimbos.
Now Tiger Woods did marry a nanny. And funny that it cost him so much when he was discovered to be straying.
a nanny from one of the wealthiest families in europe
Gina, I have no idea about your life or your situation, but this was MY situation we were commenting on.
YOU reached out to guys with an email–good for you, *this woman* reached out to me with ONLY a WINK. Between her cliche-filled profile and her lazy wink, she didn’t give me that much of a reason to invest energy into corresponding with her, until she mentioned AFTER that she worked in the town where I live, and then she disappeared, like I failed a test or something.
And somehow according to you, it’s MY fault things never got off the ground. Go figure.
I will say it again–this woman has unrealistic expectations AND did not communicate well. Princess mentality.
95. Also, the person you pair up with is probably as attractive as they’re ever going to be. If you can barely gin up any attraction in their physical prime, imagine how your sex life as a couple will turn out when additional stressors occur, hormones rearrange themselves, and both parties become less objectively appealing over time.
91. Most people marry within their class and educational level, no matter what it is. If they move up a class within their lifetimes, they often pick a peer from their class of origin. In light of this, Tiger Woods (along with many other “new money” guys), a man originally from a middle class family marrying someone from a similar background makes sense, and so do the other pairings you mentioned.
All, or even most, successful men couldn’t have equally successful women – the gender ratios re: successful people are extremely unequal in the first place, and they skew strongly in the favor of successful women… in regards to finding more successful, equally successful, or men who while less successful than themselves, are still more so than most.* If a guy’s an associate lawyer and a woman’s a partner, she’d have to be a bit of a caricature to have a problem with that type of power couple pairing.
*It’s actually becoming a successful woman in the first place that’s statistically more difficult.
Saint Stephen #91
Your assumptions about the men I’m referring to couldn’t be more wrong. These men are very well-educated and successful in their fields, and attractive to boot (although not all of them are over 6 feet tall). I’m talking about doctors, lawyers, professors, ad execs, etc. Just because you don’t want an equal, doesn’t mean that all men feel the same way. As has been said, Bill Gates’ wife (top student and valedictorian) and Zuckerberg’s girlfriend (Harvard grad) are hardly bimbos. Where you assume friction and power struggles, they find excitement and shared interests.
@Sayanta
Melinda gate is intelligent but not nearly as intelligent or successful as Bill gate when they got married. Meaning he must have seen some other qualities in her which most successful females would refuse to see in unequally successful men and give them a chance.
i think the problem is Most folks found have it difficult grasping my point…. i never said those men i mentioned where all dating Bimbos or gold-diggers, i said some would rather settle for a bimbo (or even a breeder)… as a matter of fact Mark Zuckerberberg’s Fiancee is quite unattractive… so that takes her out of the bimbo league.
I was only trying to reinforce Helen’s point that qualities most successful men seek for in their spouse is different from what there equally successful female counterpart seek for.
While majority of the successful females would rather remain single if they can’t find a man who is equally successful if not more, majority of these successful men are getting married to much less successful females who can make their life more pleasant, this has tremendously increase their dating options, while it continues to shrink the successful women dating pool.
I do think that less well-off guys are much more interested in getting involved, and much more likely to engage in the necessary compromises and effort of a relationship.
Michael17
Many women are hesitant to contact men online. Why? Because they assume that if a man was really interested, he’d be contacting them. I have (and still do) contact men, but find that the results are generally much less successful when I do.
The woman winked at you just to gauge if there was any interest despite the distance, and you let her know there was not. You admit that you didn’t find her sufficiently intriguing to want to make the drive. She may work in your town, but she doesn’t live there, and meeting for lunch isn’t dating, even though it might have made it more convenient for you. Maybe she picked up on your lukewarm interest, maybe in the interim, someone else who lives closer to her popped up. I’m not seeing what “silly hoops” she was expecting you to jump through, since she never asked anything of you. She may simply have decided that a relationship wasn’t worth pursuing after all.
Oh, and giving your credit card to a store clerk is not the same as meeting a strange man for lunch.
Sharon-
I did not advocate being in a “difficult” relationship.
I advocated people learning to look past silly superficial physical preferences.
I guess “difficult relationship” is perhaps similar to someone else’s “nightmare” of not being able to wear high heels and still be much shorter than her guy.
So, I think we have reached a concensus.
Women are very unhappy compromising on those things they find attractive such as looks, height, status, wealth.
They try to validate this by inventing excuses. Tall men live longer (joke), high status men are a better fit socially, if they are not physically attractive now what hope in the future – better stick to the handsome ones etc etc
The men here exhibit frustration (significant in some cases) at womens inability to compromise and even more at womens refusal to acknowledge how delusional it is to hold out for a man with the required qualities.
Women show varying degrees of anger when this delusion is pointed out.
Repeat ad nauseam
To my mind much of this is driven by the difference between the sexes, with women relying much more on “feelings” to direct their actions. However “feelings” depend to a large part on the effect of hormones on the brain. When logic and feelings are in contradiction feelings get the deciding vote.
Having said that, it is much more likely that a man will fall in love with a woman that has no interest in him, than for a woman to do so.
101 There are way more successful men than women.* So many more, that even if most of them did that, they wouldn’t make a dent.
*At the very apex, female top earners are outnumbered two to one.
As a friend anyone will do but when sex is part of the relationship and chemistry is not, its a challenge for anyone. I just don’t think being disinterested in the beginning is a good sign for decades together. Relationships are hard to maintain already- why choose one that’s fundamentally flawed from the beginning.
Ruby #103:
If I were to have said exactly what was on my mind in the first email, it would be something like:
I was flattered to get your wink, but your profile doesn’t give me much to go by. Full of cliches. And the wink was kind of weak. Email instead! I am seeing some possibility that you could be really cool and cute. Going by what you’ve presented so far, I’m not willing to drive that far to meet up, especially since most first meets go nowhere. I WOULD be willing to meet up if you were nearby, and THEN if we connect, I would be willing to put the energy into pursuing something, including the requisite driving.
I know this doesn’t jibe with how a lot of women see it, that if it was meant to be, the guy would be able to see behind the lame profile and the lazy wink, and would be willing to put in the effort to cross mountains and valleys and rivers for the woman, but this is reality.
So the takeaway I’d like for women to get is to take more responsibility for your dating lives. Email instead of wink. If you are interested in a guy who lives further away AND you happen to come to his area, mention that in your first contact. And don’t write off a guy who seems unwilling to drive too far *for a first meet*, but who would be willing to meet up with you if you were closer, as if he failed a test or something. (I see your point that it could be anything.)
Good for you for contacting men Ruby, but keep in mind that men contact women all the time, most of the time without a response. So I’m not going to be nominating you for Medal Of Freedom or anything.
And I disagree with you that meeting someone you don’t know for lunch is a huge deal. You’re in a public space. A space you share all the time with strange men already (such as the dude the next table over). You ladies need to chill out about the whole “stranger-danger” thing. You’re going to be fine, really.
Again, a matter of opinion, but I think Zuckerberg’s girlfriend is very cute! Way cuter than he is!
All I can say is that most of the married men I know wanted – or want – an intelligent woman with some ambition. Yes, they are looking for someone supportive and caring too. These qualities are not all mutually exclusive.
Also, notice that in most of the questions EMK received, only one person used the word “successful”. Most just asked where to meet men over 40-50 “in real life”. Much more of a challenge in that age group then it is for 20-somethings.
Everyone has their preferences in dating. So what? Wanting a woman with “a low number” is a preference that some might find silly too.
Zaq-
I would qualify your statement.
An “average” guy is far more likely to fall in love with an “average” girl than the other way around.
Plenty of women fall in “love” with men that are quite out of their ability to secure commitment from.
Put some high status movie star, musician, or athlete in a room with 100 female admirers and you are likely to see a reverse of what you describe. One disinterested male, and a few dozen women who are the verge of falling in love with him.
The math:
If you are a woman of at least average attractiveness:
95% of men would view you as attractive enough for no-strings sex (this is not saying they WOULD, it is simply a measure of minimum attractiveness level)
75% would find you attractive enough for a short-term sexual relationship (again, not saying they WOULD, just that a girl meets the attractiveness threshold)
50% would find you attractive enough for an exclusive relationship
25% or less would be interested in a long-term exclusive relationship
5% or less would be interested in marriage
The 5% group will most likely consist of men of average attractiveness, and close to your actual dating/marriage place in the spectrum. The problem is all those hotter guys you like more, and that pay attention to you, that fall in the 95% and 75% group.
These guys are not actually commitment-phobic at all. It is just that for each guy who is that attractive, there are probably a couple dozen women exactly at your level who are circling him, giving him plenty of choices and no reason to decide. Why commit when a dozen attractive women are handing him sexual variety on a silver platter?
Now take a look at your “nice-guy” beta male orbiters, as they are often referred to.
Those are the guys who are willing to wait (for a season) for you to get your head straight and stop “dating-attractive-jerks/he-won’t-commit/i-only-attract-bad-boys/etc, etc, etc.
He will wait a while, but he will eventually move on. Your next round of beta orbiters will be slightly less appealing than the previous ones. Be grateful for these nice guy orbiters – they see you as attractive enough that they are willing to be other than your first choice.
Most of them know they would be your fifth, or tenth choice. Most are not willing to be your thirtieth choice, so take heed before you assume that such men will wait until you have exhausted all other options.
This is why I am 99% out of the dating market – I know what choice level these women have put men like me at. 20+ years of them holding out for a better deal (while having flings with “bad boys”) and I’m out.
I am not a life raft, a parachute, or a fire escape. If some women think that they can settle for me in the future and “make my day” by descending to my level with glorious hotness, think again.
Michael #98, welcome to the club. If I may borrow some of your words … a man reached out to me with ONLY a WINK. Between their cliche-filled profile and their lazy wink (and might I add poor quality photo), he didn’t give me that much of a reason to invest energy into corresponding with him, until he mentioned AFTER that he worked in the town where I live, and then he disappeared, but not until after asking me “if I wanted to date my next door neighbor or have a relationship!”
Instead of harping about the man, and accusing all men of being egotistical dirt bags, I took away something positive from my experience. I learned that I shouldn’t assume that if a man contacts me with a profile location too far out of my area [say 60-80 miles away] that we can’t meet and date without jumping through hoops and extra expense.
Now you could make the case, “Well, they should have told us up front they worked in our city or visited our city several times a week, so we’d know how better to respond to their wink,” and that is very true. But both the woman who winked at you and the man who flirted with me were likely just dipping their toes in the water to see if we’d even respond. We could have easily sent an email and said, “Hey, thanks for the wink/flirt. I see you’re located in blank. Are you familiar with my area? Maybe we could have lunch sometime.”
In hindsight, it makes sense to think that if someone from another locale is contacting you, they’ve probably already figured out the next step about how it’s all going to work logistics wise, unless they’re really clueless, which is always possible, too. 🙂
When I let the man know how much I appreciated his interest, but that I felt we lived too far away from each other, his response was exactly as I wrote above. I sensed his sarcasm, but I still sent him another nice email that pointed out that I did not know he visited regularly, since his profile location was elsewhere. I didn’t hear from him again which told me that he likely wasn’t all that interested to begin with, and his email revealed his unappealing manner.
It was an online dating lesson learned, at least for me ~ not an opportunity to bash the man, come to conclusions based upon false expectations, and lump him and all other men together with biased thinking. In the end, everyone gets their ego stepped on a little bit in one way or another. It happens. It’s called, “Next!” 🙂
How did people with Aspergers (such as Bill Gates) suddenly enter the conversation about meeting “tall, dark, handsome… men”? Don’t get me wrong; personally I could live with most Aspies – my son is one, and I’m sure I have a few traits, so I know what I’d be getting into – but it’s not easy, especially if we’re talking relationship. It would take a lot of work, patience, and understanding.
I agree that there has to be some initial chemistry. I also agree that you can’t have it all, and need to compromise. What I think people need to do is make up their mind on what they can compromise on without feeling miserable (for me that would be looks, height (to an extent), weight (to an extent), social skills, success, popularity (to an extent)), versus things you know you cannot live without (for me that would be intelligence, an open mind, intellectual curiosity, positive attitude… have to have those or else I will run away screaming). I guess if a woman is not dead set on having a highly intelligent man, then she can up the ante on, say, looks, and still have enough options to choose from.
Success can mean anything. In pure monetary terms, I’m pretty sure there are drug dealers in my area right now who are making more money than my coworkers by infinite measure. In terms of a successful business, I talked to a guy on Match who has an electric-fence business that is doing very well, huge house, huge lot, enormous fruit orchard… but he could not string two words together, or remember the last time he’d read a book. While the man is obviously successful, he’d be a bad match for me. So, personally, I don’t even factor success into the equation. As long as the guy has a job and supports himself with no problems, I’m cool.
[email protected]: But it sounds like you were only vaguely interested in her because she was vaguely cute. What does “cool” mean? Not anything she revealed about herself–her profile was full of cliches. Or maybe she looked kinda “cool”? Not sure.
All that you are thinking about her and her motivations, and your judgments of her nonactions toward you, broadened to condemn all dating women in the world: you are making all of this up.
She could have been hit by a truck crossing the street next to your home and been on the 10 o’clock news and you wouldn’t have known. Which would also explain the lack of response to your lunch invitation.
@ Zaq
One woman suggested tall men live longer. Some women make excuses. And some women have absurdly long list. There’s a saying “The Higher the Fewer” Uber successful people have a small pool to swim if their looking for someone who is their equal in all regards.
However apart from that select group I think most people have healthier relationships with people that are more or less their equals in attractiveness, financial means and education.
It can get confusing for women because so many men will say and do the right things for a time to maintain a sexual relationship. If your dating 3 men and they all seem nice at the get, you’re probably going to be the most interested in the one you have to most chemistry with.
It’s possible that Mr. Hottie/Charisma is being earnest and Mr. Hoohum is a jerk. You could assume all men you are attracted to are inherently bad people and unattractive men are all good. While due to the dating market there is some truth to the assumption its still an assumption.
On-line dating is hard because I hate to go out with a guy just to see if I maybe could possibly eventually become attracted to him. It feels like I’m setting him up for rejection. I’ve developed one or two surprising crushes after months of platonic situations. It’s rare but it has happened. But If I met the guy on a date there would be to much pressure.
(Completely off subject: Realizing as I’m writing this I can enjoy sex earlier in a relationship kissing hand holding and spooning ect. weirds me out for the first 6 months or so. I don’t really like to talk to anyone on the phone and I generally prefer texting. It’s not that I don’t like the men I’m dating I just need a lot space and private time but that does make me a great candidate for cheaters and commitmentphobes alike. Anyone else having this problem?)
Michael17 #109
<<I was flattered to get your wink, but your profile doesn’t give me much to go by. Full of cliches. And the wink was kind of weak. Email instead! I am seeing some possibility that you could be really cool and cute. Going by what you’ve presented so far, I’m not willing to drive that far to meet up, especially since most first meets go nowhere. I WOULD be willing to meet up if you were nearby, and THEN if we connect, I would be willing to put the energy into pursuing something, including the requisite driving. >>
Then why didn’t you ask her more questions? You’re just as capable of writing an email as she is.
<<And I disagree with you that meeting someone you don’t know for lunch is a huge deal. You’re in a public space. A space you share all the time with strange men already (such as the dude the next table over). You ladies need to chill out about the whole “stranger-danger” thing. You’re going to be fine, really.>>
I didn’t say she decided not to meet you because you are a stranger. More that she may have decided that she wasn’t interested in putting in the time when your response was lukewarm, and as you said yourself, “most first meets go nowhere”.
Um, not looking for the “Medal of Freedom”. Just saying that most women feel that if a man is sufficiently interested, he’ll make the first contact.
Michael17: The other thing you need to understand is that women actually WANT to do the pursuing sometimes. But we’re told repeatedly that we shouldn’t do it, that we should let the men initiate, because if we initiate we turn them off.
If the girl who winked at you was a bit more aggressive in pursuing you, would you have found her “too much”? Possibly not; you may be someone like nathan who would not mind. But we women are accultured to believe that if you’re like the average guy, then yes, you would find such initiation a turnoff.
So be a little gentler and more understanding about that girl. In the absence of knowing YOU personally, she was probably hedging her bets by being slightly flirtatious and not initiating any more than that, waiting for you to make the first move. You could now let her know that you’re the sort of man who doesn’t mind if a woman initiates.
Goldie asked: (#113)
“How did people with Aspergers (such as Bill Gates) suddenly enter the conversation”
You’re the first person in this thread to mention Aspergers. Bill Gates got mentioned (presumably) because he’s smart, successful, incredibly wealthy and relationship-oriented.
And you might want to read this link before claiming that Bill Gates has Aspergers.
helene said: (#15)
“you can meet plenty men who are short or overweight or out of work or not interested in committment or living with their mother or boring or shy or elderly or badly dressed…. but attractive, charismatic men — in your dreams!”
“And I have to say that as far as cute, attactive, relationship -orientated women are concerned, they are, indeed, everywhere.”
I find this belief amusing. You see tons of cute, attractive women, but no attractive charismatic men.
I’ve never expected to have to explain to David Copperfield that Sigfried & Roy do stage magic, not real magic.
One of my fiancée’s early memories of me (a few weeks after we were introduced) was running into me at a Halloween party. I was dressed in drag. To quote her description of that event: “Not only did he look like a woman, but he was gorgeous. I got shivers dancing with him.”
I can be (and have been) an attractive woman … given enough time, enough makeup, a wig, the right clothes & accessories, control-top pantyhose, fake nails, and a little extra padding in strategic locations. It’s all a cleverly crafted illusion.
You find women more attractive than men because you’re seeing the beautiful illusion … instead of the reality behind it.
If you date women, you will eventually see the same women naked, with no makeup and bed hair. It’s a rather different look.
More importantly, you are far too focused on the superficial. Last week my fiancée and I had dinner with a couple of our friends. If you were to look at this couple, you would think she’s way out of his league. The woman has a ripped body (aerobics, pilates, yoga and dancing). The man is in average-ish shape (dancing and playing with his dog).
Once you get to know them, your perspective changes. She’s short-tempered, impatient, judgmental, critical and generally difficult to get along with. He, on the other hand, is friendly, cheerful, and gifted with a nearly-infinite supply of patience.
One of these days he’s going to realize that he’s out of her league and he’ll find a woman who treats him better.
original question:
“Where do you go to meet real men?”
As a man, where should I go to meet women?
What a ridiculous question. I’m in a city that’s approximately 50% women. A significant portion of them are unmarried. They’re in my neighborhood. They’re at work. They’re on the train. They’re at church. With the exception of the restroom, they’re everywhere I go.
Men are everywhere too (except the women’s restroom). Your problem isn’t where to find them. It’s how to meet them.
Karl R, I don’t think you refuted helene’s point. If anything, you corroborated it by your example of cross-dressing to look gorgeous. Women ARE much more attractive than men on the outside. What she said is absolutely correct. I say this even as a woman who is attracted to men. Look on the streets; look in subway stations; look in your workplace. Look at couples at restaurants. My husband and I have shared countless laughs about couples where the woman is dressed to the nines and the man looks unshaved, shirt tucked out, potbelly hanging out, etc. Most men do not present an “attractive and charismatic” persona in public. helene is right on that point.
But the crucial issue, of course, is that attractiveness and charisma don’t matter in the long term. What matters is what’s on the inside. And there I think you did make your point about the couple where the man looks less attractive but has a sweeter personality. That’s why it’s important to look beyond the scruffy man’s or the gorgeous woman’s exterior, to understand their personality.
By the way: it may not be a matter of either the woman or the man being out of the other one’s league (because that sounds like competition or ranking, which doesn’t really belong in a relationship). Easygoing people are usually compatible with edgy people, for whatever reason. Most married couples are, in fact, that way: one uptight person, one relaxed person.
@Jack
I totally agree. Its amazing that women cannot see that.
Come on girls. Own up. See what I wrote above. Am I not correct ?
You are being driven by biological drives to desire that which will hurt you.
If you will not acknowledge this, you will find it difficult to override them to seek out men who will love you.
Now I have to say that it is easier for men. Yes of course men are also affected by biological imperatives, but whereas women seek high quality low volume, men are geared to seek low quality high volume. For commited relationships, as Jack points out, they want as high quality as possible, but they are prepared to set the bar a little lower on looks, and potentially far lower on wealth, success, intelligence etc.
And to point out that which I have stated so many times but women fail to take on board – your equal is NOT someone of similar physical attractiveness, wealth, intelligence, success.
If you are a moderately physically attractive woman, you are not in the same league as an average looking man who is also successful and charismatic. YOU are are ones that are putting so much value on these non physical attributes. Men do not.
I meet plenty of attractive, charismatic men in my age range (I’m 34) and my area (near Boston) but they are all engaged, living with a girlfriend or married. It seems the age range in which many people have already shacked up and haven’t hit the divorce bubble (people in the 40s) yet. When I was in my 20s, I had no problems finding a guy to date but I was so busy with grad school and career building, I only dated casually, nothing serious. Now I regret that, since I have my career but no steady guy. It really makes no difference whether the guys are online or off-line. I tend to meet a lot of attached men who claim otherwise until I find out through a little detective work. The last few guys I have dated have turned out to be married, engaged or living with a girlfriend, but claimed to be single, divorced, or “just out of a relationship.”
As a gentle follow-up to the discussion on standards and setting the “high bar,” on looks, success, etc. I tend to go by instinct, chemistry and an emotion – rather than the typical standards set by society for a “great match.” I don’t care what kind of car he drives as long as it gets him where he needs to go. Education is important but only as far as building up his self-esteem–as a secure guy is a sexy attribute. Chemistry can’t be faked. It has nothing to do with looks or money.
Helen said: (#119)
“Most men do not present an ‘attractive and charismatic’ persona in public. helene is right on that point.”
By missing my point you’ve inadvertently helped me make it.
The vast majority of my quality time with my fiancée is in private.
The underwire, push-up bra is off; it’s too uncomfortable.
The control-top hose have come off; they’re hot and uncomfortable.
The makeup is off; it’s not good for the complexion.
The attractive dress has been replaced by something shapeless and comfortable.
I’m not looking for a trophy wife. I’m not trying to increase my status by having something pretty hanging off my arm in public.
Women dress up in public to impress other women. They don’t do it for the man they’re with. Why would you expect that portion of the time to matter to us?
In the time that matters most to us, the beautiful illusion is gone. You’re just as slovenly as us.
Helen said: (#119)
“Easygoing people are usually compatible with edgy people, for whatever reason. Most married couples are, in fact, that way: one uptight person, one relaxed person.”
If both people are uptight, the relationship self-destructs. That combination doesn’t work. On the other hand, two relaxed people can easily get along.
But you’ll tend to observe uptight/relaxed combinations because those are relative terms.
In our relationship, my fiancée is the uptight one. She’s impatient and tends to be cranky in the morning. In her previous two relationships, she was the relaxed one (one boyfriend was overbearing and jealous, the other was neurotic). She didn’t change, but the standard of comparison did.
Even though I’m almost always the easy-going one, I still prefer easy-going over difficult. My fiancée is the second most easy-going woman I’ve been in a relationship with.
@ Zaq
I’m not arguing with on the value of non-physical attributes. It’s true a man can leverage success and willingness to commit for a women that’s younger and more attractive. Being younger and of less means generally would put the woman in a more submissive role but that’s culturally acceptable.
A moderately attractive successful women than has a two options. Because men don’t sexualize success like women she probably won’t be able to leverage success at least not in terms of a long term relationship. She could get her equal in appearance but not in career or she could go aftersomeone equally as prestigious that is significantly less attractive than herself.
If she chooses the man of equal appearance and lesser means, she will take on the more dominant role as higher status of the two and walk the delicate line to avoid emasculating her partner.
But if she chooses the higher status less attractive partner chemistry/physicality
could be a little complicated.
@ Karl #123: I’m curious what you are basing your comment about why women dress up on? Have women told you this is why they dress up? I dress up because it makes me feel good and heightens my confidence. Also, I dress up in public because I like to look good for my BF. I think it shows him that I respect him. Don’t men want to date/marry a woman that other men find attractive physically/mentally and attractive as a mate? Dont they want a woman they can be proud of? Like, when people see him with her they think, “wow, he did good”. As far as alone time goes, this is my favorite time to wear a dress/look good! I love it when he comes home and I’m doing house stuff looking sexy in a dress/vs wearing baggy sweatpants. This doesn’t change when it’s time to relax at night, I’d much rather walk around in my undies than the baggy sweatpants because I know he likes it. No one else gets to see me like that, it’s a time to look good just for him.
Erinlee said: (#125)
“I’m curious what you are basing your comment about why women dress up on?”
Try a little experiment. Go someplace with a mixed group of friends. After a few hours, start getting the men alone (where they can’t see the other people) and start asking them questions about what the other men and women are wearing. Then repeat the scenario with the women in the group. For example, ask the men which women were wearing heels or flats, and which ones were wearing open or closed toed shoes.
Despite being in the same environment with the same people, the men will seem overwhelmingly oblivious to details that the women will all be aware of.
If the men didn’t even notice that your shoes were blue, then you’re not wearing Minola Blancs to impress the men. You’re dressing up for the people who are actually judging your clothes … the other women.
When the women talk amongst themselves, they talk about what the other women are wearing. The men don’t talk about what the women (or the men) are wearing unless it’s truly outrageous. It’s just not important to us.
Furthermore, I’ve had a few dozen women (grudgingly) admit that they dress up to impress other women. Based on their tone of voice, it didn’t necessarily sound like something that they liked to admit to themselves, but they did seem aware of it, at least upon reflection.
Erinlee said: (#125)
“Also, I dress up in public because I like to look good for my BF. I think it shows him that I respect him.”
I tolerate my fiancée’s desire to dress up when we go out because I know that it makes her happy. Personally, I’d rather get where we’re going on time.
Erinlee said: (#125)
“Don’t men want to date/marry a women that other men find attractive physically/mentally and attractive as a mate?”
I don’t find Pamela Anderson attractive. Therefore, I wouldn’t want to marry someone who looked like her (even though the majority of other men would find her extremely attractive).
I want a woman that I find physically/mentally attractive.
Erinlee said: (#125)
“Like, when people see him with her they think, ‘wow, he did good’.”
Some men go for the trophy wife. I strongly suspect they are trying to elicit that response from others.
My fiancée is 16 years older than I am. If I was remotely concerned with what other people think, I wouldn’t be with her.
Erinlee said: (#125)
“when it’s time to relax at night, I’d much rather walk around in my undies than the baggy sweatpants because I know he likes it.”
At that point, I completely agree that you’re dressing for your boyfriend. However, if my fiancée and I are both wandering around in our underwear, she no longer has the aforementioned advantage in appearance. (The situation may be different for you and your boyfriend.)
@ Karl
I definitely understand your point of view on this one. In response to your response, I do believe that women check out other’s appearance more than men do. However, when I speak of dressing up to go out, it’s not other people I’m hoping notice me, it’s my boyfriend I want to impress.
As far as other women are concerned, yes, to a certain extent, we want to look good around other women because we often compare ourselves to other women. I also did not mean a trophy wife when I said, “wow, he did good”. What I really meant was a women that keeps herself up. She keeps her weight maintained, is well groomed, smiles and is a genuinely well liked person. A woman that people enjoy being around. “Wow, he did good”. 🙂
@Sharon #124
Yeh, finally a woman and a man agreeing !
So the next question is what are options available to an average looking woman ?
That is most of you.
And nobody has taken me up on my main point.
The admission that woman are driven to desire men that will not make them happy.
Erinlee said: (#127)
“What I really meant was a women that keeps herself up. She keeps her weight maintained, is well groomed, smiles and is a genuinely well liked person. A woman that people enjoy being around. ‘Wow, he did good’.”
I want a woman that I enjoy being around. Period.
However, it is likely that other people will also enjoy being around her. And if other people like her, they will believe, “Wow, he did good.”
But part of your statement sounds incredibly shallow to me. Think of all the people whom you like to be around. Do all of them maintain their weight well? Are all of them well dressed and pressed? Do they all have nicely styled hair? Do they all have straightened and whitened teeth when they smile?
People like being around my fiancée because she’s sweet and funny. Weight management and grooming are irrelevant.
Erinlee said: (#127)
“when I speak of dressing up to go out, it’s not other people I’m hoping notice me, it’s my boyfriend I want to impress.”
If your boyfriend is like most men, you’re probably wasting your time.
If my fiancée spends one or two hours getting ready to go somewhere, I will give her a compliment on her appearance. I do this because I know that it will make her happy. It’s an easy opportunity for me to spend 5 seconds of my time and earn some brownie points.
If she spent 30 minutes getting ready and left the house on time, she would earn brownie points with me. (And I’d probably still be complimenting her looks, because I wouldn’t know that it was no longer appropriate.)
It is possible to achieve the visually “impressive” effect that you’re looking for.
1. Wear something that flatters/enhances your figure.
2. Do this before he ever sees you naked.
Last week my fiancée dressed up for a formal occasion in an attractive dress. As part of her preparations, she managed to appear two cup sizes larger than normal. Since I’ve seen her naked, my thought was “neat trick.” If I hadn’t been in the room when she was getting ready, it would have been closer to stage magic: “I know that’s not real, but I can’t figure out how she did it.”
The other men (who have never seen her naked) were thinking, “I had no idea she looked like that.”
Even if your intent is to impress your boyfriend, that’s not likely to be the outcome.
In ref to Kate.. I so feel along your lines. I am one of those smart, good looking, healthy, middle aged (but feel and act younger!) women who is fun loving, passionate and compassionate still seeking a great man. I’ve been looking for 8 years off and on and rarely find men I am attracted too. So many are drinkers/smokers or don’t take care of themselves. I live in a small community 25 miles from a town of 45,000 so the pond is small. I do go to parties, dances, yoga, meditation groups, art shows, and dance classes. We don’t have dog parks, skate parks, tennis courts, football stadium or other gathering places. Strangely, I rarely even see men who interest me or are attractive. And this is in looking for YEARS! The few that have are usually married, smoke or have issues or are looking for a fling. That’s why I ask the WHERE question. Online is tricky because I live on an island and it is pricey to fly over for a meeting. If I could find several great guys, I know how to get them. Most of the men who show interest in me are 10-20 years older! Uhggg They couldn’t keep up with my activity level for even half of one day. I almost feel like moving because I find that when I travel to Calif I find many more attractive, interesting men who are my age and interested.
Karl R Said: (#123)
Women dress up in public to impress other women.
That is so untrue! I think you have been misinformed. Women for the most part dress to impress either their boyfriend or men in general. Women for the most part don’t care about impressing their fellow women, just like men don’t care about impressing their fellow men.. Men and women only want to impress the opposite sex, cos that’s who we are attracted to. if my girlfriend just fixed a new hairstyle, she wants me to compliment her and tell her how good she looks… if i go to gym and work out, i also want her to tell me how good she thinks my body looks.
A woman would care much less of how other women think of her if only her guy thinks she is hottest woman on the planet.
Our actions are always revolving around impressing our partner (for the hooked ones), or to attract the opposite sex (for the single ones), sometimes we do this consciously or unconsciously.
I agree with Erinlee and Stephen on this one.
I have never dressed up with the goal of impressing women. I have no interest in one-upmanship games with them (most of my girlfriends and female colleagues are not catty, anyway), nor have I any interest in attracting them.
I dress up for men, or because it is a formal occasion in which dressing up is appropriate.
Karl R, I do like your funny observations and insights from a guy’s perspective though. I can tell you can’t tell about fashion – you can’t even spell Manolo Blahnik correctly. 😉
I am single and looking so I dress to attract men I am aware that men are oblivious to the finer details of fashion so I dress in a way that flatters my figure. I am not trying to impress women what would be the point of that?
@Teresa,
I think that what Karl’s comment illustrates is that a lot of men don’t notice the details, just the overall effect. I don’t think he’s wrong. He has a woman he loves, and she doesn’t have to do as much as she does to look the same to him (I think). That is not the same as not trying at all.
They notice overall if you look nice, but as much as you might want to argue, it’s the women who really notice the new haircut or what designer made your dress (or shoes) or whatever.
I think that for a lot of men, you either look sexy, pretty, hot, or not.
But a lot of the fine details that you spend hours primping over are not obvious to straight men.
So a lot of people who are spending 2 hours could possibly spend 30 minutes.
And while I think it’s important for a trophy bride or girlfriend to be decked out, being badly dressed or having bad fashion sense does not usually keep a woman from having a man. Lots of badly dressed women are not lacking for suitors, and guess what, as they walk down the street, it’s women who are saying, wow, her clothes/hair/makeup/eyebrows are awful.
Not to say that some men don’t notice, but once a men is into you, if you are decently maintained, you can stop with the marathon primping session. I think that you can spend a fortune on your dress and he is really just imagining it being on his floor.
There is difference between who you are dressed up for and who really notices and can tell you what you’ve done.
I’d say that women who doubt that should start asking their boyfriends and husbands what they had on if you recently went all out to primp for them, or ask them what is different the next time you get your hair, nails or eyebrows done.
No one is saying you shouldn’t dress up, but you probably could get by with a lot less unless you just want to impress other women.
saint stephen-
You are projecting your male motivation onto women.
Women are in competition with other women even more than they are trying to impress men. Men simply serve as the ‘judges’ in the inter-female social-status tournament.
Helen #131: Yeah you can tell Karl isn’t a leg man, because a leg man would know how to spell Manolo Blahnik, and Christian Louboutin, and Jimmy Choo, et al. 😉
@27 Ever consider maybe those guys hang out in those places to only mix with a certain kind of woman? If you’re not part of that scene, then maybe those men aren’t interested in you.
.
As far as the 5k seat goes. Even if the guy was worth 5million, he still spent .10% of his net worth on a seat!!!!!! He probably won’t be wealthy long with irresponsable spending habits like that. Not to mention he would be mispending your childrens future inheritance out of selfishness, and a need to look cool! Not cool.
Jack, thanks for the fresh perspective. I’m only 23, thin, tall, intelligent and consider myself attractive… and it’s easy to feel that entitlement that you describe and completely ignore how that person makes me feel and if they’re even suitable for me in the long run. Knowing your self-worth and therefore being selective goes way deeper than that and reading this helped keep me in check. I feel that, unfortunately, people tend to set up these crazy expectations and “minimums” from an early age.
Anyways, Evan, have you ever read “Choosing Me Before We” by Christine Arylo? She really delves into the concept of “who are you BEING that will make a guy want to ask you out and fall in love with you” (as you stated above) and I’d be interested in reading your opinion on the book!
I just want to find a guy who respect me in all sense a guy who do real job for living I just want a real man who can give me what I’m looking for which is built a family who can make me happy and I can make happy too
Hello ladies, I want to share some salient advice with you from a guy who actually IS “tall, dark, and handsome”.
This is for all you wonderful woman 30 and up.
1) Feel and look your best at all times for the given occasion.
2) Be pleasant going and approachable.
3) Don’t take yourself to seriously.
First off, the problem with a woman trying to find her “Mr. Right” through online dating is the vast majority of men don’t do online dating! Speaking for the general consensus of men, we don’t like trying to qualify ourselves by giving descriptions of who we are, what we do, how much we earn, and explaining our likes and dislikes. Personally, I tried a dating site a few years back. For me it was very time consuming, as it involved too much effort. It wasn’t because I’m not tech savvy either. So after finally completing my profile, I pm’ed a handful of nice ladies. I got a few responses in return after a few days, but the online dating experience was pretty lame for my liking. For one many people consider online dating to be creepy, impersonal, and dangerous to some extent. Look at how its even depicted in movies. Not to mention something known as ‘catfishing’. For most men online dating feels like virtual reality, sorry ladies but we have video games for that…IJS. So if you want to meet a “real quality man” and not a virtual one, then you have to be more open minded and be more social in your day to day dealings. Women have to ask themselves, why would an attractive guy or any guy for that matter enlist the help of a dating site when he go outside and indulge with plenty from the fairer sex. As mentioned earlier, the ratio of men to women is always tilted in a man’s favor. Futhermore, I often wonder to myself … if a woman claims to be so well put together, then why isn’t she out being sexy, confident, and worldly? Why is she hiding behind behind her pc trying to analyze what she wants in a man. Us men folk like a nice lady who is nice looking, delightful, charming, and has loads of personality. We are sight and sound. We like women who like us and makes us feel good. Initially, we just a want a woman who we can share a smile, a laugh, conversation, a hug, a kiss, and maybe a night cap with. Why? Because we like fun girls. No harm in that. No shame in that. You want a man? There it is. BOOM! If a woman is not ready for this then she isn’t even ready for dating yet. Ever wonder why men visit gentlemen clubs? Hint…hint. Don’t get me wrong i am suggesting that you have to be a stripper bearing your lady parts for the world to see. I am simply saying we like to be entertained by the fairer sex and by a woman shifting her demeanor it can do wonders for her. Fundamentally, women need to be cognizant of the fact that men are simple in our approach to dating and pretty much anything in life. There is no secret Davinci code to meeting women for us. Regardless of income, looks, education, or social status in society all men pretty much work the same, only style or taste vary. The problem with many single women is they want to play courtship/dating extremely too safe. Hurting their chances of actually finding the hidden gems in a man. EMK knocked it out of the park when he said it’s not about where to meet “Mr. Right” but who am I being that will attract Mr. Right. I totally agree with that premise, its not about where you meet your man but are you prepared to meet him. He could be at work, school, church, the parking lot,the supermarket or the mini market, you never know, so be on your best behavior or you could wind up running him off, leaving you still in your quest for finding “the one”. Men know we can meet “Ms. Right” or “Ms. Right Now” (no one said it would perfect)anywhere. However, its unfortunate that many women do not realize this. The more you go, the more you will get to know. BTW…here’s another tidbit for you single women out there variety, taking risks, and not being afraid of the unknown is the spice of life. Have fun. Be natural and let go. Soon enough he’ll be knocking at your door before you know it. Who knows, you could be a happy wife living a happy life someday.
If I met a man at church who frequented ‘gentlemen clubs’ to be ‘entertained’ with lady parts hanging out, that would make him a gigantic disgusting hypocrite, wouldn’t it? And every single hypocritical man I have ever met, who excuses his own behaviour but judges others exactly like, has also been an emotional if not verbal and physical abuser. Any hint of hypocrisy in any human where they hold others to a higher standand then they themselves live to, and I write them off as being a worthwhile as anything useful on this earth. That being said most people I know tell me my standards for myself and others is too high. They believe I only achieve what I do by having too high standards and that I then expect others to be like me (especially my children, lol) So I’m unlikely to meet a man who isn’t in some way a hypocrite as times in his life.
You Evan hit the nail on the head!!!!! This is RIGHT ON!!!
I myself 5’9″ and 1/2 to 5’10” guy am EXACTLY A QUALITY GUY JUST LIKE DESCRIBED AS I (I drive to work) Quality man trait.
(I play golf and watch football on weekends) another Quality man trait.
I work 50 hours a week or more. Another Quality man trait.
I am A quality guy that puts himself online, smiles at strangers, he’s friendly at parties, and… YET TO MEET A WOMAN (without her having a crappy attitude, has the I’m looking for this sooooo specific (of course super extra super tallll guy). Hey ladies you just passed over a QUALITY GUY!!
Exactly!! But unless you’re going to hitchhike for guys, crash his golf foursome, break into his house or stalk him in his office, you’re simply not meeting him in real life.
You’ve been waiting forever to meet him in real life. Hasn’t happened. (Exactly and yet guys hear ladies whine and whine and complain and complain about WHERE ARE ALL THE TALL GUYS). Hey ladies YOUR STILL SINGLE all the while you have been telling all these “good” “qualities guys” (not EXACTLY 6′ TALL BUT TALL ENOUGH AS IN 5’8″, 5’9″, 5’10”) NO! NO or telling them they are all “boring”. Really, we guys that play golf etc. are boring. Here’s CLUE LADIES… Men have HAD IT PLAIN AND SIMPLE HAD IT WITH YOUR BASHING, CUTTING MEN DOWN, HOLDING OUT FOR MR. ADONIS. Enough of your mean spirited attitudes JUST ENOUGH!!!! Your mean, angry attitudes are HUGE TURNOFF LADIES!!!
So LADIES YOU BETTER GET ON SAYING YES TO US GUYS AND DATE US and STOP your insistence million “requirement” list.
I have to continue onto my answer… As Evan pointed out with women wanting only tall, dark, handsome, perfect career etc. Men like Evan said if men asked well where are all the perfectly in shape optimistic, confident, understanding, self-aware women. Most of you women would yell “in your DREAMS”.
Same goes for you ladies that constantly, hold out, whine, moan, cry where are all the tall, dark, handsome, perfect career guys. Ladies “in your DREAMS”. Women, wake up!!! Men are furious with your insistence and holding out for this Mr. Tall guy that hasn’t come, but yet at the same time telling all these GREAT QUALITY GOOD CAREER, GOOD EDUCATION GUYS EMPHATICALLY BECAUSE SO MANY OF YOU LADIES ARE SO HUNG UP ON HE MUST BE TALLLL. And oh those top CEO’S of companies they didn’t (just fall into those positions ladies) it takes work, promotions and years of experience to get to those positions and those CEO’S are either in their mid to late 40’s to early 50’s, plus most are all TAKEN, married and have families.
Evan I think what you do is wonderful. it is hard to find a smart good looking guy in the world today. I’m a very healthly 44 year old woman I work part time I like to read, cook, bake, sew, &make other crafts and listen to classical music once in awhile. to find a smart good looking guy who is interested inside woman like me is very hard to find is there any smart good looking guys out there that is interested in a woman like me
I’m a 6’4″ C level exec, good with kids, call my mother, and have spent 15 years sponsoring children in 3rd world countries. Also bald so its not all gravy :0). Physically I think I’m a 6 or 7 and have been told that I’m attractive. I’m online but I don’t say what I do or my income because I want to be liked for who I am not my job. I also get embarrassed when I’m introduced by friends as a C exec, my job is a reflection of my ability at work, I’m still a divorced single dad.
Best way to connect with me? Talk to me about music or camping. I can’t contain my passion about either subject and will gladly stay in your company, get to know you etc..
I am a very successful 41 year old, divorced, tall, dark, and most have said handsome man. I also work in an exciting field that has me travelling a good deal.
Yet I keep finding women that have absolutely no clue how to treat a man. Sometimes I even find women who are so duplicitious that it makes trusting any women impossible.
So I am now resigned to the idea of just having meaningless physical relationships.
Women should not complain about a lack of good quality men, when they have no clue what to do with them if they had them.
Evan did an interview with the dating guru Rori Raye recently and she (apologies if it was you who gave this answer Evan, it was def during that interview) answered this question well. Its not about doing all sort of interesting and diverse activities. Think more along the lines of ‘this bar isn;t working for me, try the one round the corner’. If you’re going out for coffee three times this week, don’t stay in your fave seat in your fave place, try go to three different coffee shops, there’ll be three different groups of people.