Am I “Needy” If I Want to Talk to A Woman I’m Seeing Online?
Evan,
Over the past couple of weeks I’d been e-mailing a woman who initiated contact with me. It was pretty apparent from the timing of the mails that she didn’t always have access to the web which I, being in IT, do.
We had our first conversation on this past Tuesday night and it went well. We have a date scheduled for Saturday evening to get drinks. During the call she gave me her regular e-mail so we wouldn’t have to work through Match. The next day I sent her a very short e-mail mostly to answer a question she had that I didn’t have the answer to Tuesday night. I also said I enjoyed talking with her. She responded that she enjoyed the conversation and was looking forward to Saturday.
Now, I thought it would be appropriate to speak one more time before Saturday. So yesterday (Thursday) I sent an e-mail asking if it would be better to call that night or Friday. That’s all the mail said. I didn’t get a response yesterday so I didn’t know if she got the mail or not. I posted this information on a forum I use – and while a couple of women said I should go ahead and call, several others said that I was appearing needy, that I shouldn’t have asked when a good time to call would be. Some even said that I shouldn’t have had any more contact until Saturday at all.
Now, I’ve heard plenty of horror stories about the guys that call several times a day but I don’t think I was approaching that territory. As far as I was concerned, I was being considerate in asking when a better time to call would be. Did I show weakness? Neediness? Expose my throat?
Has it really come to this, that it’s not just “don’t be a stalker” but that any sign of showing you want to talk to the person is a sign of weakness and grounds for elimination? If so, why do we have the audacity to wonder why so many of us are still single?
Thanks,
Markus
Dear Markus,
Thanks for the note. Since you’re a regular reader and commenter, I wanted to get back to you as quickly as I could.
Anyone who’s been here before knows that I never ever EVER validate the person asking me a question.
- If a woman says that her boyfriend is a jerk, I’ll ask why she’s dating a jerk.
- If a man says that women are fickle and judgmental, I’ll ask if he’s fickle and judgmental.
I think there’s nothing to learn from pointing fingers at the world’s injustices. The real power comes from seeing the world clearly, assessing your role in why things happen, and deciding if there’s anything within your power to alter the future outcome….
Which is why I’m as surprised as anyone, Markus, that I don’t have any constructive criticism for you. If I were your dating coach and you told me that story, I’d tell you to do the exact same thing again. And if all you got back from this woman was stony silence, at least you know you acted with class and integrity.
This reminds me of a friend who’d had a great first date shortly before he was to leave town for a business trip. Instead of telling the woman he’d call her upon his return, he decided to make an effort while he was gone. Great move. Making an effort shows a guy’s serious, a quality that 99% of women say they’re looking for in a man.
So my buddy calls her on Sunday and leaves a message. Four days later, he checks in again to see if he can reach her. Leaves a message. He returns home, and hears through the grapevine that she thought he was a good guy but was a little too “needy.”
This drives me fucking nuts.
Ladies who are reading this — I am pleading with you to find some consistency. I do not advocate that you date some wussy-stalker who has no mind of his own, except when it comes to texting you 42 times a day to show you he cares. I do advocate, however, a more commonsense policy — one that is better aligned with your stated goals.
You’ve told me in no uncertain terms that you’re sick of men who are players. Men who charm you and don’t follow up. Men who sleep with you and don’t call. Men who text at midnight on a Friday to see if you’re around. Men who take you out for months and never commit. We’re all in agreement that these guys are the ones who ruin dating, because you never know where you stand with them.
Then why the HELL can’t a good guy make an effort towards you without being labeled needy? Isn’t this exactly what you WANT? A guy who does what he says and says what he means? A guy who calls when he says he’ll call?
Why the HELL can’t a good guy make an effort towards you without being labeled needy?
Listen, I’m not saying that this woman has to like Markus. For all I know, he left a really creepy message that lasted for four minutes before cutting off due to a full mailbox. But presuming he did nothing wrong, what is he to take from this latest dating endeavor?
So what are you looking for, ladies? The badboy who keeps you guessing? Or the good guy who makes a normal and sustained effort without overdoing it?
Go on, we’re dying to hear…
(Oh, and since this is not a piece attacking women, please don’t counter with all the things that men do wrong. It’s irrelevant, since two wrongs don’t make a right. Just let the guys here know: you DO want them to make an effort when they like you, right?)
Markus,
I think it was great to email and ask to call. I read that as being interested AND considerate. Truly, an admirable quality in a man! A stalker guy is one who initiates contact because they are interested BUT not considerate of the receivers time nor do they read the cues that they are forcing themselves into someone elses boundaries.
Good Luck but if she doesn’t respond via email or pick up the phone, you might need to cut her a little slack because you don’t know if she was able to get the email that would tell her to be by the phone. You, being an IT guy, probably already know the downfall of communication via email.
Barb
Personally, I love it when a guy calls me, even daily. Then I know he’s interested in me.
I think Evan is a first class gentlemen. Sounds like he knows how to do things the right way. Some men will leave you hanging – not knowing if they are going to call or not. They seem to want to string several women along at the same time. I have finally met a man who happens to be as conscientious as Evan. I am happy that I did not give up as many people unfortunately do. There are many “Evans” out there, just be a bit more patient and keep your positive attitude intact. Evan, you are a wonderful guy that any woman in her right mind would enjoy being with. Never change!! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Hello Again: Do forgive me Markus, I called you Evan. Markus, you are one fantastic guy. You are going to meet a woman who will truly adore you because you are one classy guy! Please don’t question yourself. You are doing all the things that any woman, in her right mind, would appreciate. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Absolutely. Make an effort. I think what Markus did was perfectly acceptable.
One call in the days before a date is fine–if nothing else, to just make sure that it is still on. I talk to my friends before we go out when we’ve made plans days in advance, just to make sure I’m not going to be the only one showing up, why wouldn’t I want the same from a date?
Getting a call from a guy before our date that we’ve scheduled earlier in the week would not only let me know that he has a life and doesn’t want to show up if I’m not going to be there, but it would also reassure me that he wants to see me, and that he’s going to be there as well.
One call is respectful, not needy…in my opinion.
Women want strength.
My guess is that women associate indifference with strength.
Bad boys are indifferent, which makes them attractive. The down side is that they are indifferent to women’s feelings, needs, and how they treat women.
What I think women have trouble articulating is that they want ( whether they know it or not ) a “nice guy” who is also indifferent. Instead of being indifferent to treating them well, the nice guys they would find attractive would be indifferent as to whether or not the women are interested in them. They want (nice) men who don’t “need” them, who have other dating options, but who choose to date them.
That being said, women play their own version of games which end up boomeranging on them, the way the games men play boomerang on men. Women tend to overanalyze everything a man does or might do.
Hence we get to Markus’ predicament where if a good guy leaves an extra phone message many women will analyze it for signs and clues in a way that would put Quincy to shame. Their loss.
I don’t know what to tell you, Markus. More than anything I appreciate the type of effort you made. From what you’ve said you don’t sound at all needy ( & neither does Evan’s friend, for that matter.) Best of luck & Merry Christmas y’all.
Hi
I wanted to respond to the guy that has the woman telling him he is needy. What I am about to say goes for both genders. It is all well and good to have a date with a man or woman and they never call back. You lament and say how great it would be if one guy or girl would suck it up and try to maintain something and return calls. That is what you say. Saying it and having it happen or two different things. I personally have done this to people and have had it done to me. People say they are ready but maybe they really aren’t. To have a relationship that is. When faced with the very real possibility that something could work out for more than 2 dates it is a whole new ball game. Like I said I have been the one who made up stupid excuses not to go anywhere or to call back. I was scared and not ready. I have had men that have made up excuses and then blamed me for not connecting. So try not to blame yourself if you really feel you didn’t do anything wrong.
WOW ! TOO NEEDY ..THAT IS WHAT OTHERS SAID NOT THE LADY HE WAS CALLING, SHE HAS LIMITED ACCESS TO THE WEB AND MAY HAVE A VALID REASON FOR NOT ANSWERING ,LET THEM DATE AND TRY NOT TO WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THE FIRST STEPS , THE FEAR WORKS BOTH WAYS ..AM I TOO THIS OR NOT ENOUGH OF THAT..THERE MUST BE SOMTHING SHE LIKED..HEY!
So – it really comes down to this – if a woman labels you as “needy” when you place a follow up call it only means one thing. She isn’t that into you. I’ve seen my girlfriends go through similar motions and I always say this – “If you were into him that behavior would be very welcome.” When you like a guy, he can’t call or follow up too soon. When you aren’t that into him, calling him “needy” is an easy out.
I’ve had several woman do a disappearing act during online dating. I think people tend to do what they want and then rationalize after the fact. She decided she didn’t want the date for some reason you’ll never know (and may have nothing to do with you), and this is just the excuse she came up with to spin it. Move on, internet dating isn’t for the thin of skin.
Since Marc doesn’t have any suggestions, I’ll make one:
You spoke on the phone Tuesday. You e-mailed Wednesday. You e-mail again Thursday and want to talk to her then or Friday. You’re seeing her Saturday.
Five contacts (all initiated by you) in five days. And far from “seeing” her, you haven’t even been on a first date yet.
That’s too much. And it’s nothing to do with women having double standards or wanting a “bad boy” (where the hell did THAT come from, Marc?), it’s with the man having a little bit of restraint. If you’re contacting her this much now, how will it be *after* the first date? You need to be able to put yourself in her shoes, and then I think you’ll understand.
Holding back from initiating a conversation every single day shows you’ve got a life you’re comfortable and happy with. That’s all.
This is how Internet dating messes things up – some people feel like they’re closer than they actually are, before any *real* dating takes place.
And as it’s after Saturday now, how did it go?
This. 100%. Sometimes it’s an issue of wanting to meet the guy in person before getting so invested. Sometimes it’s not having time to juggle multiple people, which means 1-2 phone calls per guy per week…this makes it your second job. Sometimes it’s a question of other commitments that you aren’t quite ready to discuss (like taking care of a parent, a second job, or a commitment to your faith) and you are genuinely busy.
A lot of guys rush into things when it’s just starting. Like Michael said, some people feel they are closer than they really are before any actual dating takes place. For me, not wanting to talk between a first call and a first date is not a rejection, just a silent request to slow things down a bit. If you tell the guy this, since the guy doesn’t know you, he is more likely to feel rejected by your wanting to slow down, even though it’s not actually a rejection.
It sounds like the lady in question gave the OP two hints that the scheduled date was the best time for her to give him her full attention, and he missed it.
I think women don’t know what they want. They will tell you all kinds of wonderful qualities that they swear they are looking for, like a guy being genuinely a good guy for instance, but the dating sites are loaded with great guys and they get stuff like this happening all the time. It is very typical and I have experienced it myself all too many times. It’s very frusterating. Women these days have no respect for men…they’re not raised with that concept anymore. There are LOTS of great guys on these dating sites, honerable men. I know because I am one, and I know a lot of other guys on dating sites and they all say the same thing as I’m saying here. Problem is, they may not be the best looking, or most adventuresome, or maybe they actually shave every day because they have jobs – another thing women say they want, but they don’t get any “play” because none of the women really want that deep down…they want the bad boy that is really hot is what they want! And I thought men are supposed to be the “dogs” out there! If there is one thing I’ve learned about online dating, is that women are just as bad, just as big lyers, and have not one once more integrity as most of the “players” out there. I guess it’s true…girls just want to have fun!
Paul
Bottom line is – If a woman is interested she welcomes the calls and/or emails. If she’s not she will think that you’re needy and/or a psycho.
So as a woman what do I say?…..There is nothing wrong with calling this woman friday or thursday to confirm your date for Saturday. I actually expect a guy to call me before a scheduled date to reconfirm. It shows that he is looking forward to the date and cares. If you hit it off after your first date a call every other day would be perfectly acceptable. My ex, whom I went out with for 4 years called me every day after our first date and I looked forward to every single call! Why? – because I really really liked him. I never once thought he was a creep or needy because he called every day. I loved it!
So go ahead call this girl ……if you don’t get a reply you’ll know that she just wasn’t that into you.
Good Luck!
Well, didn’t you say she doesn’t have regular access to the internet? Perhaps therein lies the answer.
Annoying, these peeps are, I know. (-:
EMK,
Thanks for the response. I dated the girl a couple of times and it didn’t work out.
Michael,
Let me check your math. I spoke to her [that] Tuesday evening. We had a brief e-mail the Wednesday after. I sent the e-mail in question Thursday asking when would be good to call and heard nothing back. Now, since she didn’t respond to Thursday’s mail there is no way to know she got it. Hence, no communication there. There was not “5 contacts” as far as I can tell. It was 2 (see: tree falling in woods scenario). In any event, I listened to people on this other forum and didn’t do anything. Saturday, as I lay getting a massage my phone went off and it was her making sure we were on. It was a good date, which, as I said didn’t work out. Still, your math sucks.
Kathy and SallyNYC have excellent points and get the door prize. Very interesting insight from both women. Thanks for that.
Beyond that…
Rule #1 of dating: Never get hung up on one person (easier said than done, I know)
Rule #2 of dating: Never try to make sense of another person’s behavior. It will drive you nutz – from my experience, the vast majority of people out there act irrationally and illogically. There is no figuring out people who are illogical.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah to all.
My Christmas gift advice to all readers: Treat yourself better this year than you ever have. Make it a priority to be your own best friend. Make a personal decision that you will be happy in life even if you are alone. This will help eradicate many needy behaviors (and no, I am not saying Markus was needy).
Cheers!
Kathy nailed it right on the head ! I’m so sick of catch phrase buzzwords “NEEDY & CLINGY” It’s an opinion. Like Kathy says if 2 people are into each other equally and are attracted to each other equally they enjoy talking,texting,emailing,chatting and seeing each other OFTEN. It’s when this balance becomes out of whack ie: someone is into the other a lot more etc… then the one who likes or desires the other the least cries……..you guessed it “NEEDY & CLINGY !!!” I wonder how many women would cry NEEDY & CLINGY if Justin Timberlake or Matt Damon were calling too often or wanting to see them too much.
I rest my case. I think women use it more than men because men as the natural pursuer’s are more likely to seem needy at least at the beginning of the dating scenario.
The thing that is so conspicuously absent from all the bad boy vs. nice guy arguments is physical appearance. Naturally, all other things being equal, a woman would prefer a man who strives to be with her.
Steve, you’ve got cause and effect wrong. It’s not the indifference that makes “bad boys” attractive, it’s their physical attractiveness that affords them the opportunity to be indifferent.
I disagree Ju. Not all “bad boys” are attractive. They get more mileage out of whatever they have with their attitude.
Ron,
Excellent point but I AM trying to get hung up on someone, hopefully the same person who’s hung up on me. More importantly, my cup does not runneth over right now.