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Over the past couple of weeks I’d been e-mailing a woman who initiated contact with me. It was pretty apparent from the timing of the mails that she didn’t always have access to the web which I, being in IT, do.
We had our first conversation on this past Tuesday night and it went well. We have a date scheduled for Saturday evening to get drinks. During the call she gave me her regular e-mail so we wouldn’t have to work through Match. The next day I sent her a very short e-mail mostly to answer a question she had that I didn’t have the answer to Tuesday night. I also said I enjoyed talking with her. She responded that she enjoyed the conversation and was looking forward to Saturday.
Now, I thought it would be appropriate to speak one more time before Saturday. So yesterday (Thursday) I sent an e-mail asking if it would be better to call that night or Friday. That’s all the mail said. I didn’t get a response yesterday so I didn’t know if she got the mail or not. I posted this information on a forum I use – and while a couple of women said I should go ahead and call, several others said that I was appearing needy, that I shouldn’t have asked when a good time to call would be. Some even said that I shouldn’t have had any more contact until Saturday at all.
Now, I’ve heard plenty of horror stories about the guys that call several times a day but I don’t think I was approaching that territory. As far as I was concerned, I was being considerate in asking when a better time to call would be. Did I show weakness? Neediness? Expose my throat?
Has it really come to this, that it’s not just “don’t be a stalker” but that any sign of showing you want to talk to the person is a sign of weakness and grounds for elimination? If so, why do we have the audacity to wonder why so many of us are still single?
Thanks,
Markus
Dear Markus,
Thanks for the note. Since you’re a regular reader and commenter, I wanted to get back to you as quickly as I could.
Anyone who’s been here before knows that I never ever EVER validate the person asking me a question.
- If a woman says that her boyfriend is a jerk, I’ll ask why she’s dating a jerk.
- If a man says that women are fickle and judgmental, I’ll ask if he’s fickle and judgmental.
I think there’s nothing to learn from pointing fingers at the world’s injustices. The real power comes from seeing the world clearly, assessing your role in why things happen, and deciding if there’s anything within your power to alter the future outcome….
Which is why I’m as surprised as anyone, Markus, that I don’t have any constructive criticism for you. If I were your dating coach and you told me that story, I’d tell you to do the exact same thing again. And if all you got back from this woman was stony silence, at least you know you acted with class and integrity.
This reminds me of a friend who’d had a great first date shortly before he was to leave town for a business trip. Instead of telling the woman he’d call her upon his return, he decided to make an effort while he was gone. Great move. Making an effort shows a guy’s serious, a quality that 99% of women say they’re looking for in a man.
So my buddy calls her on Sunday and leaves a message. Four days later, he checks in again to see if he can reach her. Leaves a message. He returns home, and hears through the grapevine that she thought he was a good guy but was a little too “needy.”
This drives me fucking nuts.
Ladies who are reading this — I am pleading with you to find some consistency. I do not advocate that you date some wussy-stalker who has no mind of his own, except when it comes to texting you 42 times a day to show you he cares. I do advocate, however, a more commonsense policy — one that is better aligned with your stated goals.
You’ve told me in no uncertain terms that you’re sick of men who are players. Men who charm you and don’t follow up. Men who sleep with you and don’t call. Men who text at midnight on a Friday to see if you’re around. Men who take you out for months and never commit. We’re all in agreement that these guys are the ones who ruin dating, because you never know where you stand with them.
Then why the HELL can’t a good guy make an effort towards you without being labeled needy? Isn’t this exactly what you WANT? A guy who does what he says and says what he means? A guy who calls when he says he’ll call?
Why the HELL can’t a good guy make an effort towards you without being labeled needy?
Listen, I’m not saying that this woman has to like Markus. For all I know, he left a really creepy message that lasted for four minutes before cutting off due to a full mailbox. But presuming he did nothing wrong, what is he to take from this latest online dating endeavor?
So what are you looking for, ladies? The badboy who keeps you guessing? Or the good guy who makes a normal and sustained effort without overdoing it?
Go on, we’re dying to hear…
(Oh, and since this is not a piece attacking women, please don’t counter with all the things that men do wrong. It’s irrelevant, since two wrongs don’t make a right. Just let the guys here know: you DO want them to make an effort when they like you, right?)
Barb says
Markus,
I think it was great to email and ask to call. I read that as being interested AND considerate. Truly, an admirable quality in a man! A stalker guy is one who initiates contact because they are interested BUT not considerate of the receivers time nor do they read the cues that they are forcing themselves into someone elses boundaries.
Good Luck but if she doesn’t respond via email or pick up the phone, you might need to cut her a little slack because you don’t know if she was able to get the email that would tell her to be by the phone. You, being an IT guy, probably already know the downfall of communication via email.
Barb
Lori says
Personally, I love it when a guy calls me, even daily. Then I know he’s interested in me.
KAREN says
I think Evan is a first class gentlemen. Sounds like he knows how to do things the right way. Some men will leave you hanging – not knowing if they are going to call or not. They seem to want to string several women along at the same time. I have finally met a man who happens to be as conscientious as Evan. I am happy that I did not give up as many people unfortunately do. There are many “Evans” out there, just be a bit more patient and keep your positive attitude intact. Evan, you are a wonderful guy that any woman in her right mind would enjoy being with. Never change!! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
KAREN says
Hello Again: Do forgive me Markus, I called you Evan. Markus, you are one fantastic guy. You are going to meet a woman who will truly adore you because you are one classy guy! Please don’t question yourself. You are doing all the things that any woman, in her right mind, would appreciate. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Leah says
Absolutely. Make an effort. I think what Markus did was perfectly acceptable.
One call in the days before a date is fine–if nothing else, to just make sure that it is still on. I talk to my friends before we go out when we’ve made plans days in advance, just to make sure I’m not going to be the only one showing up, why wouldn’t I want the same from a date?
Getting a call from a guy before our date that we’ve scheduled earlier in the week would not only let me know that he has a life and doesn’t want to show up if I’m not going to be there, but it would also reassure me that he wants to see me, and that he’s going to be there as well.
One call is respectful, not needy…in my opinion.
Steve says
Women want strength.
My guess is that women associate indifference with strength.
Bad boys are indifferent, which makes them attractive. The down side is that they are indifferent to women’s feelings, needs, and how they treat women.
What I think women have trouble articulating is that they want ( whether they know it or not ) a “nice guy” who is also indifferent. Instead of being indifferent to treating them well, the nice guys they would find attractive would be indifferent as to whether or not the women are interested in them. They want (nice) men who don’t “need” them, who have other dating options, but who choose to date them.
That being said, women play their own version of games which end up boomeranging on them, the way the games men play boomerang on men. Women tend to overanalyze everything a man does or might do.
Hence we get to Markus’ predicament where if a good guy leaves an extra phone message many women will analyze it for signs and clues in a way that would put Quincy to shame. Their loss.
Nan says
I don’t know what to tell you, Markus. More than anything I appreciate the type of effort you made. From what you’ve said you don’t sound at all needy ( & neither does Evan’s friend, for that matter.) Best of luck & Merry Christmas y’all.
Daisy says
Hi
I wanted to respond to the guy that has the woman telling him he is needy. What I am about to say goes for both genders. It is all well and good to have a date with a man or woman and they never call back. You lament and say how great it would be if one guy or girl would suck it up and try to maintain something and return calls. That is what you say. Saying it and having it happen or two different things. I personally have done this to people and have had it done to me. People say they are ready but maybe they really aren’t. To have a relationship that is. When faced with the very real possibility that something could work out for more than 2 dates it is a whole new ball game. Like I said I have been the one who made up stupid excuses not to go anywhere or to call back. I was scared and not ready. I have had men that have made up excuses and then blamed me for not connecting. So try not to blame yourself if you really feel you didn’t do anything wrong.
NANCY L COUCH says
WOW ! TOO NEEDY ..THAT IS WHAT OTHERS SAID NOT THE LADY HE WAS CALLING, SHE HAS LIMITED ACCESS TO THE WEB AND MAY HAVE A VALID REASON FOR NOT ANSWERING ,LET THEM DATE AND TRY NOT TO WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THE FIRST STEPS , THE FEAR WORKS BOTH WAYS ..AM I TOO THIS OR NOT ENOUGH OF THAT..THERE MUST BE SOMTHING SHE LIKED..HEY!
Kathy says
So – it really comes down to this – if a woman labels you as “needy” when you place a follow up call it only means one thing. She isn’t that into you. I’ve seen my girlfriends go through similar motions and I always say this – “If you were into him that behavior would be very welcome.” When you like a guy, he can’t call or follow up too soon. When you aren’t that into him, calling him “needy” is an easy out.
Bennie says
I’ve had several woman do a disappearing act during online dating. I think people tend to do what they want and then rationalize after the fact. She decided she didn’t want the date for some reason you’ll never know (and may have nothing to do with you), and this is just the excuse she came up with to spin it. Move on, internet dating isn’t for the thin of skin.
Michael says
Since Marc doesn’t have any suggestions, I’ll make one:
You spoke on the phone Tuesday. You e-mailed Wednesday. You e-mail again Thursday and want to talk to her then or Friday. You’re seeing her Saturday.
Five contacts (all initiated by you) in five days. And far from “seeing” her, you haven’t even been on a first date yet.
That’s too much. And it’s nothing to do with women having double standards or wanting a “bad boy” (where the hell did THAT come from, Marc?), it’s with the man having a little bit of restraint. If you’re contacting her this much now, how will it be *after* the first date? You need to be able to put yourself in her shoes, and then I think you’ll understand.
Holding back from initiating a conversation every single day shows you’ve got a life you’re comfortable and happy with. That’s all.
This is how Internet dating messes things up – some people feel like they’re closer than they actually are, before any *real* dating takes place.
And as it’s after Saturday now, how did it go?
Erin says
This. 100%. Sometimes it’s an issue of wanting to meet the guy in person before getting so invested. Sometimes it’s not having time to juggle multiple people, which means 1-2 phone calls per guy per week…this makes it your second job. Sometimes it’s a question of other commitments that you aren’t quite ready to discuss (like taking care of a parent, a second job, or a commitment to your faith) and you are genuinely busy.
A lot of guys rush into things when it’s just starting. Like Michael said, some people feel they are closer than they really are before any actual dating takes place. For me, not wanting to talk between a first call and a first date is not a rejection, just a silent request to slow things down a bit. If you tell the guy this, since the guy doesn’t know you, he is more likely to feel rejected by your wanting to slow down, even though it’s not actually a rejection.
It sounds like the lady in question gave the OP two hints that the scheduled date was the best time for her to give him her full attention, and he missed it.
Paul says
I think women don’t know what they want. They will tell you all kinds of wonderful qualities that they swear they are looking for, like a guy being genuinely a good guy for instance, but the dating sites are loaded with great guys and they get stuff like this happening all the time. It is very typical and I have experienced it myself all too many times. It’s very frusterating. Women these days have no respect for men…they’re not raised with that concept anymore. There are LOTS of great guys on these dating sites, honerable men. I know because I am one, and I know a lot of other guys on dating sites and they all say the same thing as I’m saying here. Problem is, they may not be the best looking, or most adventuresome, or maybe they actually shave every day because they have jobs – another thing women say they want, but they don’t get any “play” because none of the women really want that deep down…they want the bad boy that is really hot is what they want! And I thought men are supposed to be the “dogs” out there! If there is one thing I’ve learned about online dating, is that women are just as bad, just as big lyers, and have not one once more integrity as most of the “players” out there. I guess it’s true…girls just want to have fun!
Paul
sallynyc says
Bottom line is – If a woman is interested she welcomes the calls and/or emails. If she’s not she will think that you’re needy and/or a psycho.
So as a woman what do I say?…..There is nothing wrong with calling this woman friday or thursday to confirm your date for Saturday. I actually expect a guy to call me before a scheduled date to reconfirm. It shows that he is looking forward to the date and cares. If you hit it off after your first date a call every other day would be perfectly acceptable. My ex, whom I went out with for 4 years called me every day after our first date and I looked forward to every single call! Why? – because I really really liked him. I never once thought he was a creep or needy because he called every day. I loved it!
So go ahead call this girl ……if you don’t get a reply you’ll know that she just wasn’t that into you.
Good Luck!
JuJu says
Well, didn’t you say she doesn’t have regular access to the internet? Perhaps therein lies the answer.
Annoying, these peeps are, I know. (-:
Markus says
EMK,
Thanks for the response. I dated the girl a couple of times and it didn’t work out.
Michael,
Let me check your math. I spoke to her [that] Tuesday evening. We had a brief e-mail the Wednesday after. I sent the e-mail in question Thursday asking when would be good to call and heard nothing back. Now, since she didn’t respond to Thursday’s mail there is no way to know she got it. Hence, no communication there. There was not “5 contacts” as far as I can tell. It was 2 (see: tree falling in woods scenario). In any event, I listened to people on this other forum and didn’t do anything. Saturday, as I lay getting a massage my phone went off and it was her making sure we were on. It was a good date, which, as I said didn’t work out. Still, your math sucks.
Ron says
Kathy and SallyNYC have excellent points and get the door prize. Very interesting insight from both women. Thanks for that.
Beyond that…
Rule #1 of dating: Never get hung up on one person (easier said than done, I know)
Rule #2 of dating: Never try to make sense of another person’s behavior. It will drive you nutz – from my experience, the vast majority of people out there act irrationally and illogically. There is no figuring out people who are illogical.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah to all.
My Christmas gift advice to all readers: Treat yourself better this year than you ever have. Make it a priority to be your own best friend. Make a personal decision that you will be happy in life even if you are alone. This will help eradicate many needy behaviors (and no, I am not saying Markus was needy).
Cheers!
JB says
Kathy nailed it right on the head ! I’m so sick of catch phrase buzzwords “NEEDY & CLINGY” It’s an opinion. Like Kathy says if 2 people are into each other equally and are attracted to each other equally they enjoy talking,texting,emailing,chatting and seeing each other OFTEN. It’s when this balance becomes out of whack ie: someone is into the other a lot more etc… then the one who likes or desires the other the least cries……..you guessed it “NEEDY & CLINGY !!!” I wonder how many women would cry NEEDY & CLINGY if Justin Timberlake or Matt Damon were calling too often or wanting to see them too much.
I rest my case. I think women use it more than men because men as the natural pursuer’s are more likely to seem needy at least at the beginning of the dating scenario.
JuJu says
The thing that is so conspicuously absent from all the bad boy vs. nice guy arguments is physical appearance. Naturally, all other things being equal, a woman would prefer a man who strives to be with her.
Steve, you’ve got cause and effect wrong. It’s not the indifference that makes “bad boys” attractive, it’s their physical attractiveness that affords them the opportunity to be indifferent.
Markus says
I disagree Ju. Not all “bad boys” are attractive. They get more mileage out of whatever they have with their attitude.
Ron,
Excellent point but I AM trying to get hung up on someone, hopefully the same person who’s hung up on me. More importantly, my cup does not runneth over right now.
hunter says
to Markus,
if you like this woman, try not to let the word “needy” discourage you. She may have just used that term without thinking…and lets say she really meant it, so what? I think there is nothing wrong with a man sounding needy…if she is frightened by your neediness, find another woman….try and stay with the ones that are not as sexy. They haven’t been hurt, runover, used, etc…… as much and are not as finicky, sensitive, etc…..
Steve says
Ron Dec 25th 2007 at 08:11 am 17
Kathy and SallyNYC have excellent points and get the door prize. Very interesting insight from both women. Thanks for that.
Ditto. That was a fascinating insight that never occurred to me before. I wonder if the mistaken perception of “neediness” on a woman’s part only exists when she is totally disinterested. I think sometimes this perception may happen when a woman can go either way, but a guy makes too many contacts before having won her over.
Beyond that
Rule #1 of dating: Never get hung up on one person (easier said than done, I know)
Always be willing to “walk away from the sale”?
make sense of another person’s behavior. It will drive you nutz – from my experience, the vast majority of people out there act irrationally and illogically.
I agree, it will drive you nuts, especially if you are self conscious in some way.
I don’t think people are that illogical though. People lie about why they were not interested in people either not to hurt other people’s feelings or not to make themselves look bad. Who wants to admit to their friends that they walked away from a great catch because the person was 5 lbs too heavy and they were hoping to make it with someone who has nicer hair?
Steve says
Markus Dec 25th 2007 at 01:51 pm 20
I disagree Ju. Not all bad boys are attractive. They get more mileage out of whatever they have with their attitude.
Thanks Markus, that would have been my reply based on my life experience. I haven’t seen any ugly bad boys, but I have seen some women go for them over equally ( or more ) attractive men who were “nice guys” ( insecure ).
mrs. vee says
IMHO, there’s little difference between a “he’s-just-not-that-into-you” scenario and a “she’s-just-not-that-into-you” one. If a girl is attracted to you, there’s almost nothing you can do as a courtship gesture that will turn her off. So I see nothing wrong with a confirmation call. If she’s weirded out by something a insignificant as one pre-arranged phone call, that prob’ly just signifies there would be larger gaps in communication styles down the line. Ascribing neediness to someone you’re not that interested in happens with both males and females.
Sorry it wasn’t a connection this time, Markus.
Markus says
She didn’t say or imply I was needy. When I asked for help on this on a different forum I was told I would appeasr needy. As such, I didn’t call her. I’m not too worried about it. She’s a vegan and I’d like someone that will eat ribs with me. 🙂
Steve says
Markus Dec 26th 2007 at 10:13 am 25
She didn’t say or imply I was needy. When I asked for help on this on a different forum I was told I would appeasr needy. As such, I didn’t call her. I’m not too worried about it. She’s a vegan and I’d like someone that will eat ribs with me. 🙂
I’m a vegan. What geographic area does she live in? 🙂
Kat Wilder says
I agree with what some of the women have said here if a woman is into a man, she won’t feel that he’s coming off “needy” if he calls her a few times. You’ll have to take your cues from what it feels like when you’re on the phone, but if she were willing to write you off so quickly, that would speak more about her than you (and you might have saved yourself some grief).
One online guy and I spoke about two hours every night for more than a week before we finally could meet. We were both into each other equally, and neither felt overwhelmed or that the other was needy.
That said, when I was dating someone a while back, he liked to call a lot 2 or 3 times a day. I wasn’t used to that and it was weird at first (plus, I felt like I had nothing left to say!), but then I got to like it … mostly because I liked him.
If she hasn’t called off the date, don’t overthink it. You’ll know after you meet whether it’s clicking or not and whether yourcalls are appreciated.
Michael says
Markus,
Not that it’s the point at all, but my math was 100% correct – I wasn’t counting how many times you DID see, talk to or e-mail her (which was still 4 times in 5 days: Tuesday call, Wednesday e-mail, Thursday E-mail, Saturday meeting) but how many times, in your ideal world, you would have ended up contacting her.
Don’t be defensive (you miss the point that way). This is friendly advice, okay?
Just show a little restraint – believe it or not, it’s an attractive trait. Just because the “bad boys” take it to an extreme doesn’t mean you should do the opposite.
Here’s a way to play it: On Wednesday you followed up by e-mail on your phone conversation, essentially confirming what you agreed to on Thursday. Unless she responds and asks you something more, leave it there. See her Saturday.
At the very most, IF you had a specific question or detail to hammer out – don’t e-mail at all! Just call her Friday and ask, get the info you need, then tell her you’ll see her then and go on with your exciting Friday evening.
The e-mail asking to call is probably the crux of the issue here…it’s kind of, well, weak.
hunter says
…if you like this woman, you can turn her into the “rib” you want to munch on, if you get my drift. It usually takes 3 dates for a woman to warm up. Keep in mind, that, if she is a cutie, you are competing with a half a dozen other guys who want her attention. A woman’s mind was built to follow a man…..she has to be attracted to you first…..women operate off their feelings…..
downtowngal says
I totally agree with Evan here and the other posters regarding the guy’s calling.
Every time a guy asks me out, I would expect him to call that day or the night before to confirm. It shows he’s still interested and that he’s polite and respectful.
And I mean a phone call, not an email. Once I had a date with a guy after work but hadn’t heard from him to confirm so I made other plans…turns out he emailed me to confirm, but I wasn’t able to access my personal email from work.
If I don’t hear I assume he had second thoughts. Whenever this has happened and I called I either never hear back or he says that something came up.
Markus you’re not beeing needy. I agree with the above posters, any time a woman complains that a guy is being ‘needy’ or ‘smothering’ she’s not that into him.
Selena says
Markus,
I know this is all over at this point, but what did the woman say about your email regarding calling her? Did she even get it before Sat. when she called you to confirm? Did she get it, but just ignored replying to you? Either way would be telling.
For what it’s worth, I think you handled the situation perfectly. Before a first date, I would much appreciate a phone call the day or two beforehand to firm up plans. Nothing needy about that, just considerate and practical.
What comes off as needy/clingy to me is guys who attempt contact several times a day before we even get to know each other! A short email to say Hi, etc. everyday is ok. I think the fact you emailed her to ask when to call was a really nice thing to do–not annoying at all. But if someone doesn’t/can’t check her email everyday, a phone call should be fine too. With the understanding also that she could call YOU if she liked.
Good luck on finding someone to eat ribs with you. Yum!
sallynyc says
I posted a response earlier but after reading some of the other posts feel as though I need to respond again.
JuJu: It’s not the indifference that makes bad boys attractive, it’s their physical attractiveness that affords them the opportunity to be indifferent.
What are we..in high school where looks trump all? No No No sophisticated women are not going to go out with a (insert name of hot celebrity here). look alike that takes us for granted.
Steve: “What I think women have trouble articulating is that they want (whether they know it or not) a nice guy who is also indifferent.”
Wrong Wrong Wrong. Guys reading this post please do not follow Steve’s advice! Women want a nice considerate guy. We don’t want a guy who can take us or leave us. If we’re interested we want to know that you care!
Like I said earlier- If I woman is interested she welcomes the calls/ emails. If she’s not you’re labeled as needy. I think all the women reading this can agree with that!
hunter says
to sallynyc,
It has been my experience, that, women, don’t change their mind, their “feelings change.” She may label a man as “needy” for the moment, but, once she has warmed up, everything is hunky-dory….mostly, women warm up after the 3rd date,..well, maybe not,… always,… not if she has recent hurts…in that case, it is time to move on to someone else….
Selena says
Interesting Steve, that you know more about women than we know about ourselves: What I think women have trouble articulating is that they want (whether they know it or not) a nice guy who is also indifferent.”
No Steve, I know for certain I don’t want a nice guy who is indifferent. Indifference translates to ‘just not into you’ for me, and time to move on to someone who is actually interested. Indifference is dull.
Sallynyc, if I’m interested I certainly welcome emails/phone calls! The whole needy/clingy thing comes into play when a guy is excessive in that way before you get to know him and if it appears he is pushing for too much of a relationship before you really get to know him.
And yeah Hunter, usually by the end of the third date I know if I want to keep seeing the guy or not. First dates can be awkward, so “warming up” by the third date is not far off the mark if I’m interested.
Isn’t all of this true of both genders though?
Steve says
Serena;
Somebody know an aspect of yourself better than you do isn’t a new thing nor is it an insult. It is as old as time and it is why people consult psychologists, clergy, or just talk to old friends. Since nobody can be closer to a person than her/himself people often miss seeing things about themselves because they are too close to the problem.
The inadequate word “indifference” I used was not meant to be used as meaning indifferent to everything, only as to whether or not a man would be “successful” in a dating sense with a particular woman. In other words, he is spending his time with her because he [b]wants[/b] to, not because he doesn’t have other options ( not just social, but other sources of happiness in his life ). In other words, you in particular are special.
Assholes have this level of indifference, but they are also indifferent to everything else that is important, like the woman’s feelings, values, thoughts etc.
Strong men, who are self assured and have well rounded lives who also happen to be “nice guys” have the qualities I delineated in the first paragraph and since they have those qualities they do well with women.
Jules says
In response to Evan’s story about the guy who called the girl while he was away on business, if she thought he was coming across as needy then that means she wasn’t that into him to begin with. At least that’s how I would react. If I am really interested in a guy I’ve just gone out with, I would be doing back flips after hearing from him while he was away. But if I was feeling lukewarm or uninterested, then I would categorize the calls as being too pushy and coming on a bit strong.
Is that fair? No. But I think that’s how a lot of girls would react. If we like you, then we are excited to hear from you. If we don’t, then we roll our eyes and chalk it up to coming on too strong.
Jessica says
I think the way we perceive other people has a great deal to do with how we feel and what we are thinking at any given time plus our emotional response to the person or situation in question. And it can clearly be colored also by what we really want or need at the time – or what we think we do or what we think we should feel. It isn’t uncommon for one person to be a bit more into the other and that isn’t a problem. As long as there isn’t too great a difference. Figuring out if you are on a similar wavelength on that can be very difficult. Then too, it is if your communication styles mesh or are at least compatible – both from a frequency issue, depth of communication, and of course, logistically speaking (One of you always has email, one doesn’t, etc.). I don’t think that you, Markus, did anything wrong or needy. Had you left three messages in one day, then I would have been concerned : ) I too would rather get a confirmation of a date – especially with someone I hadn’t met yet – close to the day supposed to go. Showing you care and that you are considerate is a good thing. As to not having a cup that is running over, I wouldn’t take that personally. Too many people on dating sites seem to always be looking for “the next best thing…” without actually giving the current “thing” (forgive my phrasing) and honest shot. I think a lot of women play the field now too. Often it is hard to just take a good look at one guy and see if he is good for you when the emails don’t stop coming from others during the process. I would rather find just one person to be hung up on and have him feel the same about me. I don’t like emailing or dating several people at once. Makes me feel guilty. I think you have to do what you feel is right and do what you want to do as long as you don’t feel seriously compelled to have to do it. In other words, if you were antsy and felt you had to call her, you might then have had an underlying need or reason that wouldn’t necessarily serve you well in the short or long term. It all comes down to the “why” for me. I wish there were more people who stayed in contact and who responded when you sent a thank you note for them taking you out. Many don’t even reply even if you go middle of the road in case you had a better time than he did, or if you say, “thank you so much for coffee, dinner or whatever – It was great meeting you and I hope you find what you are looking for with someone special.” I don’t think all women don’t know how to treat men or vice versa. Generalizing leads to nothing good. But I do think fewer people in general treat others as well as they could. We use not having the time as an excuse. I’m sorry your dates didn’t work out Markus, but some day you will find a girl who wants you to contact her so much, that she will be picking up the phone too. Do good things for yourself and do what you want in life that makes you happy and other people will be attracted to you. Not implying you aren’t already – just don’t neglect yourself while looking for someone else : ) Then, if it takes a while to find her, you will still be content and productive in the process and have even more to offer to the right lady.
hunter says
to selena,
you said, “isn’t all this true of both genders”….mostly, a mans biggest sex organ, are his eyes……we warm up before the 3rd date….
KAREN says
JESSICA:
Thank you for your most brilliant observation. I applaud you! You have stated all that I feel and think. We as men and women must be more appreciative of the opposite sex. We must stop looking for someone “better” than the one we just met. We need to just give everyone a fair chance. Again, thank you Jessica for your fantastic observations. Happy New Year and much luck to you!!
Jessica says
KAREN:
Thank you so much for the kind message! Glad what I said resonated with you. I realize now I should have put it in paragraphs to make it easier to read. I learn a lot from reading Evan’s blogs and the pursuant comments from other readers – both the men and the women – so am quite pleased if I have added to the experience for someone else as they have for me. You have a Happy New Year too! Hope you find whatever/whomever your heart desires.
Michael Ejercito says
I would not text a woman forty-two times a day.
For one thing, it would inflate my cell phone bill, which would leave me without money for important things – like taking her to dinner.
pericles says
I have made the semi-mistake of misjudging how much contact is necessary or desirable prior to actually meeting the person. It seems like, with a first meeting, that it’s pretty unnecessary to call prior to the meeting. If you have ONLY been online with the person or maybe a few phone calls, it is a BIG adjustment to actually meet the person. I’d say, you made the connection, you got the confirmation that you were meeting at a certain day, specific time; enough. Leave it alone. Show up when you said you would–that’s all that’s necessary. No in-between contact is necessary or probably even desirable. It’s anti-climactic to contact in-between. In-between making the date and keeping the date, we are figuring out what to wear, talking to girl friends, painting toenails, making our own internal arrangements… this is a bit of a stressful time. Having a guy call during that time doesn’t come off as needy, per se, but it does seem unnecessary. It’s just a bit too much extra energy at a time of some butterflies. Think of it as the kind of hiatus you need prior to a business meeting–if the client kept calling you when you knew you were seeing them the next day, what would you think? I promise you, it would not be generous. You might not see them as needy as much as you would think of them as slightly over the edge emotionally, a little too invested, that sort of thing.
Mike Paahana says
meeting girls online is easy, u jus gotta go for it, some times can sometimes no can but u not going no unless u chance um
Tigerlily says
You did nothing wrong. You can’t second guess yourself based on the behavior of someone you have never met. Perhaps she didn’t have net access and didn’t see your note. Perhaps she’s busy on dates with other guys. Perhaps she was really excited to meet you, then went out with someone else who she got really excited about and… a) she forgot about you, b) felt unsure if she should still see you. Most women aren’t used to playing the field. It could be so many things that have nothing to do with YOU.
Jen says
Telling me you can’t live without me after one month, will render you needy, whether I am into you or not. I do no want to hold anyone else’s life in my hands.
James says
Hi,
First off I will say that online dating sucks. It is too easy to reject someone. Women are fickle as it is. I tried it and don’t like it at all. I have much better luck at my local bar. You meet face to face and will know right there if there is an attraction.
As it is I really don’t like women and I don’t usually give them the time of day.
starthrower68 says
That must be a real turn on for those gals. Who doesn’t want to go home with the guy who despises them?
Karl R says
James said: (#46)
“As it is I really don’t like women and I don’t usually give them the time of day.”
If a woman said, “I really don’t like men and I don’t usually give them the time of day” (or if she demonstrated that attitude), I would consider that a perfectly sound, non-fickle reason to avoid dating her.
Similarly, I would say that your statement indicates that you’re the type of man women should avoid. They’re women. You don’t like women. Some of them may be rejecting you because they’re fickle. Others may be rejecting you because they’re perceptive.
How do you feel about women who don’t like men and usually don’t give men the time of day?
Why would you expect women to feel differently about you?
Jennifer says
@ Michael #12
Thank you! Hit the nail on the head! No need for any further discussion.
Melissa says
I believe it all comes down to balance. I have two recent examples of two good guys who I have dated. I will call them John and Mark. John creeps me out, and Mark is the balanced guy who is consistent, but not creepy. They are both sweet, both good looking, both charming…However, the key difference between the two is John doesn’t respect boundaries, and Mark does. John will call and text constantly knowing that I’m busy with work or my kids. His texts are all pointless chit chat type stuff. Mark text or calls me daily, but actually has a purpose when he does. He also has a life on his own, and respects the time I have with my kids or with work. If I don’t get back to Mark immediately, he gets it. If I don’t get back to John immediately, he calls and leaves more messages asking me what’s going on? Why haven’t I called him back? blah blah blah. He also found me on Facebook, and I’m still not sure how that happened, as we have zero mutual friends and my name is super common. Red flag! So anyway, that’s where it becomes a huge turn off. ick! I believe it’s probably the same for men as well. No?
angel says
Markus,
Provided your message wasn’t creepy and you really, truly only reached out those times, I don’t think you did anything wrong at all.
When I connect with a man online, we shift to a brief phone conversation. Should plans be made, I think it’s reasonable if he’d like to touch base throughout the week until we meet for the first time. I prefer this, as men who have booked dates out a week, I’ve encountered a few times where they cancel last minute on me. And I think that they do this because a better option came up. Not cool. At least, if the man is staying engaged with me, I know there is some interest and I’m not questioning on a Friday night whether he’s showing up!
So, this past year, if a guy plans a date with me and then over days there is nothing, I honestly do not show up. If we planned it within 24-48 hours, I will. But I personally think that no communication at all over 4-7 days before a date is too long and prefer not to even plan anything with someone anymore that is a week out, if I can avoid it.
Kitty says
I think it really depends on how he messages and what her expectations are. If she’s fairly independent and they’d established a date for Saturday, and she said “Looking forward to seeing you (for the first time) Saturday,” in my opinion there really is no need to talk multiple times between Wednesday and Saturday, particularly if all the contact had thus far has been online emails and a preliminary phone call to determine if it’s potentially a good idea to meet in person. You don’t go from strangers to talking every other day immediately and if someone pulled that on me I’d be wondering why he wanted to be my insta-boyfriend before he even knew me.
Obviously there ate going to be different situations. For example, if you two met by chance at a cafe and just couldn’t stop talking for hours, it would probably be appropriate to call her the next day to ask for a proper date, assuming you hadn’t locked that down already. But that’s a situation where strong chemistry has already been established. In situations where a gal is just going to be meeting you and is aware that in-person chemistry may be vastly different than online chemistry or phone chemistry, seeking her attention when it has already been established that you’ll be meeting Saturday is indeed overeager.
For some, this extends into relationship territory as well. If you make plans for the Thursday, calling her Wednesday night and wanting to talk into the night is not a good idea. The whole point of dating is to enjoy one another’s company and build a solid foundation for a potential future together if it’s a match, not to gain an emotional bastion on which to lean. Forgive my bluntness, but a woman wants a partner, not a barnacle. Maybe this is you and maybe it isn’t, but it is clear from what’s transpired that you somehow ended coming off that way. Given that, it’s likely that either you didn’t read her signals correctly or you expected too much too soon, or perhaps both. Remember that online dating is a supreme risk for women. Guys most often hope she won’t be fat (which is in itself an issue, but not for this topic); gals most often hope he’s not a killer or stalker. Next time read carefully what she says. If the call or letter ends with “See you ____ (insert date here)!”, you’ve effectively been dismissed until that date. There is no reason to seek further follow up until then, because there’s no date yet after which to tell her what a great time you had and you aren’t close enough yet to be talking all the time.
Maria says
I think it’s polite and respectful to find out a good time to call. Some women may think your willing to call when they say so they assume you are going to free yourself at anytime, thereby, being needy. I would say handle it like setting up a meeting or just say, I’d like to set up a time that works for us both for a chat before we go out Friday. How is tomorrow at 7 or 8pm? If not, let me know a time after 6pm that you’re available. If not, I’ll talk with on Friday. I’m dating now and find your approach refreshing instead thinking I’m free to take your calls at any time. If she doesn’t respond, shes being rude. I wouldn’t bother another attempt.