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I’ve been dating this guy for the past four months. I am 26 and he is 38. We met on Match.com. Both of us are divorced with no kids. We were both in relationships with someone who treated us like we were worthless. Because of that we both have a hard time trusting that the other isn’t going to be like our ex. I have been divorced for over four years. He, on the other hand, has only been divorced for about nine months. I am his first serious relationship since his divorce. He is not my first serious — I’ve had a couple since my divorce. I am not in this to fall in love and get married right away — I am in this to have a companion. Someone to enjoy spending time with and get to know and see where it might go in a few years.
When our relationship started out, it was great! We enjoyed each other’s company, always laughed, had plenty to talk about. Due to the past couple of relationships I have been in, I took my time to get to know this one. It took me over two months to get comfortable enough with him to feel like he could be someone worth pursuing. But it seemed that as soon as I got on board, he stepped off the boat. He has been distant, doesn’t chat as much, doesn’t come around as much.
We’ve had a couple conversations about it. Each time he says he has hit a brick wall. He’s admitted to being afraid that I am going to turn out like his ex. He wants to go out and do things with his friends and things he enjoys, and he thinks I will be upset about it. I told him as long as he makes time for me too, I am fine with him wanting to have his own life. I told him the other night that if he just doesn’t want to be with me, he needs to tell me and let me go. He said that he wants to be with me, but also wants to be able to do his own thing. So how do I get this guy on board again? How do I prove to him that I am not going to turn out like his ex? And most importantly, how do I trust that he isn’t just dragging me along as just a spare time girl? —Jennifer
I have one overriding dating philosophy: Relationships are easy.
Dear Jennifer,
I have one overriding dating philosophy:
Relationships are easy.
All the people who tell you that relationships are “work” are people who married the wrong people and are justifying their bad decisions.
Sorry to say that, but I believe it to be true. Happy marriages are fun, not work!
That doesn’t mean that every second of the day is heavenly. But it does mean that you should get along with your partner 95% of the time, and the 5% you don’t should be resolved quickly and painlessly.
Sounds to me, 4 months in, that your relationship is a little too much “work” for my taste.
You are the CEO of Jennifer, Inc. and your boyfriend is an intern applying for a job with you.
Case in point: “As soon as I got on board, he stepped off the boat. He has been distant, doesn’t chat as much, doesn’t come around as much.”
Then what’s the point of him, Jennifer?
What’s the point of a boyfriend who is distant, doesn’t call, doesn’t make plans, doesn’t make you feel safe, heard or understood, and generally makes you feel like you’re one more thing he has to deal with?
That’s right. There IS no point.
I’m not sure if you’ve read my materials beyond this blog, but if you had, you would have heard me repeatedly reminding you that you are the CEO of Jennifer, Inc. and your boyfriend is an intern applying for a job with you.
He may have gotten in the door because he’s got a good resume and was a solid interview, but now that he’s been working with you for four months, how is his job performance?
“Each time he says he has hit a brick wall. He’s admitted to being afraid that I am going to turn out like his ex. He wants to go out and do things with his friends and things he enjoys, and he thinks I will be upset about it.”
He may be a good guy, my dear, but he’s a shitty employee.
You need a man who arrives at work early and stays late, all with a big smile on his face.
Unfortunately, you’re acting like the intern, who is just begging for her job: “How do I get this guy on board again? How do I prove to him that I am not going to turn out like his ex?”
You don’t. You’re the CEO. You bloodlessly evaluate his work, not based on his potential, but on his performance. Then you face the facts:
Your intern isn’t cutting it.
It’s time to downsize.
michelle says
Haha, great analogy Evan…
This man has some serious healing he has to do…and that takes time (I have had a man who had gone through 2 divorces and saw a therapist that on average, it takes a man 3 years to be ‘ready’ after a divorce). You’re a filler girl right now, and I have to agree with Evan, if he’s not adding positively to your life, it’s time to move on.
We often think we’re ready to date after divorce, but often we’re not and often we only know because we’re doing it and it’s not working for one reason or another. He probably doesn’t even know all this consciously. I do give him credit though because he is articulating what he really wants to do, which is have complete freedom to do what he wants to do. It sounds to me like he’s throwing in the “you’re like my ex” just to ease his conscience.
Alternatively, if you’re not in an exclusive relationship (it’s been talked about and agreed upon), then you’re single, and as such can date other men. That will take care of this pressure both you and he are under.
Finally, convincing is a horrible position to be in…for the person doing it and the person receiving it.
LC says
That is very good advice.
Selena says
Loved this one Evan. 🙂
It took me an embarassingly long time to understand *good* relationships aren’t hard work – BAD relationships are the ones that feel like hard work.
Jennifer, since this guy would rather be doing his own thing than be your boyfriend, aren’t you better off doing YOUR own thing and stay open to finding the guy who does want to be your boyfriend?
Julia says
Sounds like he’s making excuses. He wants to do as little as possible to keep getting easy sex and once a week companionship with her. Let him go and find a guy who doesn’t make excuses.
Ruby says
This is so common. Most relationships don’t make it past the 3 or 4 month mark. Also a big difference between someone who has been divorced for over 4 years, and someone who’s been divorced for 9 months, who was probably married longer, too. In fact, I don’t think the problem is that Jennifer will be like his ex, it’s more that he’s not ready to get serious with anyone yet.
My advice would be to back way off from this guy – give him plenty of space. He may change his mind, but it needs to be his decision.
“…you are the CEO of Jennifer, Inc. and your boyfriend is an intern applying for a job with you.”
Love it, that’s a very empowering way to look at the situation.
MAXINE says
Evan has really hit the nail on the head with this one. Prior to discovering the “True” professional trainer for women in love, I was always on the fence in this type of situation. Always trying to be the best girlfriend to a guy. After reading Evan’s blog, I learned what I was doing wrong. Evan is right, I am the CEO and was able to weed out which guys are the best for me. Guess what, Evan’s ideas all have worked for me. I had a choice of 3 men….wasn’t sure which one to choose…..read all of evan’s relevant blogs and and his book then made just the right choice. This man is so wonderful to me! Thank you so much Evan. So glad I ordered your book, it has really helped me! Also happy I took your advice and tried on-line dating. It really, really works!
Love the picture of you and your family on facebook. Seems like only yesterday when you were single….now you are married to a beautiful woman and have very lovely and adorable children. Wow! God Bless you and your family!!
Jennifer, please exit this relationship. You will find a good man who will want to do “things” with you not without you!
Fawn says
100% agree with Evan and Michelle. This dude is not ready for a relationship.
JustMe says
A lot of people who say relationships take work mean you have to invest in the relationship. If both of you aren’t investing in the relationship, there won’t be a relationship. However, if investing in the relationship isn’t an easy and fun thing but instead feels like a chore – get out.
I really enjoy your comments, Evan. It always seem so clear.
Jadeite says
Great article and so true!
marymary says
The boyfriend and I do our own thing. Girls’ night, boys’ night, ballet, football, but we do make the relationship a prioirity too. Sometimes it is “work” to make time, but it shouldn’t feel like you’re trying to turn round the reluctant. Good work is helping to look after their sick relative, supporting them in redundancy, picking them up at the airport at 6am. It’s not about persuading them to see you.
If you’d been married x years, with kids and some good times behind you, it’s worth trying to salvage. But not after four months. You still don’t really know each other but I reckon this is who he is rather than the good prospect at the beginning.
Evan has got your back.
Jackie H. says
Hmmm…I do think all relationships take work…I don’t think people can stay together for a lifetime without work…
Sunflower says
Loved the analogy! Will definitely makes things easier in the dating world. Thanks Evan!
Heather K says
When I read this posting, the age gap also kind of sticks out at me in combination with him being still pretty fresh out of his marriage. There is nothing wrong with a large age gap in a lot of cases but from what I’ve observed there are a number of men who come out of a serious relationship or marriage and they want to have fun and they typically associate women in their twenties with having fun and someone they don’t have to commit to or be serious about – along with the fact that dating someone so much younger sometimes is an ego boost they can’t pass up on and then when a relationship starts to develop they might back off because there was not much intent to get involved again at this point. This can happen with men who date women there own age as well – this is not just something exclusive to this kind of age gap, but somehow reading this the ages of the people in question made me go huh.
Sadgirl says
This hit the nail for another reason. I just ended a one month thing with someone. They came on super strong for the first 3 dates, then when I said no sex until exclusivity, he backed way away. We kept seeing each other, but he was treating me worse and worse – calling but not making plans, slotting me into small time slots, and not being even more than kissing with me. I should have listened to the red flags – Date 1 – talked about work incessantly and when asked how a relationship fit in – continued to talk about work. Date 1 – mentioned that not all women understand his passion for work. Date 2 – when asked about previous relationships mentioned intensity, not duration and could not articulate what he was looking for. Date 3 – mentioned he wanted a partner for when he had extra time. And on date 4, told me he could not give me exclusivity in relation to the sex stuff. I held on for 2 more dates, and on the last one, when I felt like I was begging him to spend more time (not really), I decided enough. I am good enough to not have to beg.
I sent him an email ending it stating I wanted more than he could give, and that I wished him well. He sent me some nice platitudes about being great, but certainly let me walk away.
I feel rejected, even though I was the one to cut it off. But when I move onto the next one, I will know I did the right thing….
Lauren Smith says
Excellent advice, Evan. It doesn’t sound like this guy is as ready as Jennifer is? I love your take on becoming the CEO of you. That’s a new thought for me!
Cindym7878 says
Excellent advice and I agree. If you are with a good person, the relationship will be fun and you will respectfully work thru the issues that arise. Subscribe to the blog Jennifer. you will learn a lot of good stuff! =)
Lia says
Dear Evan,
If there are times when this blog seems like too much trouble, please remember that you never know when you are going to write something that changes everything for someone.
I have been doing my personal work for so long trying to learn from my mistakes and learn how to make different choices. I have been reaching for information and wanting so much to do better.
I read this post and found it good like so many other things you have written here. I nodded to myself in agreement, but it really hadn’t sunk in yet. I read the comments. I read Selena’s and thought “Yeah, me too!” I read Justme and marymary, then Jackie H… But it wasn’t until I started writing a comment that your words started to sink in on a deeper level.
With all that I have read and learned here, I couldn’t understand why I still had such resistance to having a relationship. I kept saying to myself someday I’ll be ready to have a relationship. I have been so frustrated with myself. I devour everything you write, I read other books on relationships, I have worked so hard at trying to see where my blind spots are and still I could not move forward.
When I read your reply to Jennifer, I thought that I “got’ it, I really did. When I read Jackie’s comment I wanted to write and say “NO – relationships do NOT have to be hard work” But I realized that I didn’t believe that, I wanted to, I really wanted to, but the belief that “relationships are hard” has been my belief… ALL MY LIFE.
I believed that relationships were work, work, work. I could see that there were many good things about having a man in my life but truly I just wasn’t up for all that work. It’s not that I thought that *men* were troublesome or difficult but RELATIONSHIPS inherently were. No matter how lonely I have felt, no matter how much I miss being touched and held, no matter how much I want to have someone in my life, I just couldn’t face a lifetime of endless work.
Because I read this blog, I can finally see that block, that enormous wall that has been sitting there forever, blocking so much potential happiness. And here’s the thing – it is not that I didn’t know that belief was there… I just didn’t know it was a LIE. When I finally got that, I started to cry. I deleted what I had written and wrote this, crying so hard that at times I couldn’t see they keys to type.
Thank you Evan, Thank you so much.
Dariko says
Lia,
Thank you for writing your comment. You made me realize that I unconsciously believed that relationships were hard work (probably from watching my parents’ strained marriage.) I really haven’t dated much, due in part to this mistaken belief. I also like the distinction that JustMe made between investing in a relationship and working at it. When I think of my dearest friends, it is clear that we invest in our friendship, but I wouldn’t say that we have to work at it. You have really helped me identify one of the fears that has kept me away from the dating world for so long. Thanks Evan, and thank you everyone else for your comments.
Valley Forge Lady says
The guy is doing to you what he pulled in his marriage and he is not interested in changing.
This is not the last man on earth!
I spent years trying to change men like this and it was a total waste of time.
I am now with a great guy who can’t stand to be away from me and gives all that I want emotionally and then some.
This guy does not have it, does not want it, and is not really looking for it.
His wife threw in the towel for a good reason. You should do the same.
Yes, there are guys out here who are licking their wounds from a bad deal and they want something better. They are willing to make the effort. Find one and show showe appreciation….. The right guy will not let you go!
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank YOU, Lia. You make this blog worth my while.
TerriLou says
Wow, Lia. What a brave and honest comment. Thank you so much for sharing, it really hit home with me. “You never know when you are going to write something that changes everything for someone”. Right back at ya 🙂
Angie says
Jennifer,
This guy seems to be telling you what the truth is, in his own confused, post-divorce way: He likes you, but he isn’t over his ex in a way that would allow him to have a healthy relationship with you. It also seems that he made it pretty obvious that he was happy with casual, and is probably aware he is on the rebound.
You changed the game a bit by asking for a serious relationship, and I’ve been in that rebound place before. You think you should want it, but it’s hard to be outside yourself enough to know you aren’t ready.
He’s not ready.
Jordan says
Evan, I just wanted to take a break from lurking and say hello. I found your blog last year through a Google search (very nice SEO, btw). At the time, I was deciding whether to continue a year-long relationship that had turned into a lot of work and not much joy. Your writing helped clarify my thinking, and I ended things soon after that. It was a very good decision. Not long after that, I met the person I plan to marry.
Thank you for your good advice – especially this specific advice that helped me make an important decision at just the right time. I appreciate all the work you put into this blog, and I wish you much success.
John says
The debate whether the guy is ready or isn’t ready is pointless. That has nothing to do with it. He isn’t into the OP enough to take things to the next step. When a guy meets someone that he wants to advance things with, he does it.
I believe he has grown fond of her and doesn’t want to hurt her. So this is his way of saying “its me, not you” in a different language. Anytime I was with a woman who wanted things to progress and I did not, I always trotted out the “not over my ex” or “”I have trouble trusting” excuse.
A hundred bucks that if a Victoria Secret model wanted to get serious with him, that brick wall he keeps hitting would disappear overnight. Move on OP. I think he enjoyed his time with you. But I bet you had an expiration date from the very beginning.
Ange says
Wow, I love your advice here Evan, it really illustrates the point very well (in my humble opinion, ofcourse) 🙂
Selena says
Lia,
Can I give you a cyber-hug? About 11 years ago I was reading a forum for people in troubled relationships when I read a post by a woman who wrote: ” I wish this myth that good relationships take hard work would die! GOOD relationships aren’t hard work. BAD relationships are hard work!” She got some positive feedback on that and it really made me think. The relationship/work ethic was so ingrained from what I’d ever heard/read I thought it was simply a given in life. The notion that a relationship shouldn’t be considered “work” was alien. To think otherwise, goes against the protestant (pick your ethnic, religious backround) ethic doesn’t it? The idea that anything worth having one must work for? Work meaning struggle, sacrifice, enduring unpleansantness as part and parcel. The idea a good relationship need not be such a struggle seemed almost fantasy to me back then. Yet, I knew people who didn’t seem to struggle…So was there something to this idea?
A couple years later on the same forum I posed a discussion question: We have all heard the phrase “Relationships are hard work.” What does that mean to you?
Some of the reponses involved communication – a difficulty in the partners communicating what they wanted, or needed from each other – trying to work through that. Some answered in terms of family involvement – getting along with the inlaws; working through childrearing differences, step-parenting. For some it was dealing with disparate sex drives and dips, and total lack of interest.
The main, if I can call it a consensus, was that most who responded to the question said they believed the “work” of being in a relationship was staying together. Not giving up. Some wrote of weathering “bad patches”. Some didn’t. Willingness to stay was the work. Willingness to stay no matter what? Was where my thoughts went. And was that a good thing really…for either person?
So when EMK wrote on this post: “All the people who tell you that relationships are “work” are people who married the wrong people and are justifying their bad decisions. ” It resonated with me.
I feel fortunate to know many couples, some very long married couples, who still after X many years, even over half a century, still enjoy each other’s company. And…well I also know some who really don’t seem to, or even make it obvious they do not. But they will stay together until one dies anyway. Perhaps they are getting satisfaction out of doing the work. Or maybe they were never exposed to the idea that good relationships are not such hard work? I find comfort in knowing I live in a time where people can consider this.
Lia says
TerriLou
Thank you!
AllenB says
@John23 He is not that into her, but you can’t know why. He might actually be considerate and thoughtful and know he is not ready for an LTR. I had a dating experience where she was model gorgeous, much younger, and the best dating partner I ever had had. She made it so easy; was responsive to my communications, made it clear she was into me, and very accepting of me and easy to get along with. She said yes when I asked her to do something, or asked for a raincheck if she couldn’t work the timing. When she had needs or wanted me to do something a little differently she asked with gentleness and negotiated when we needed to. She was really together in her life and had accomplished much starting from nothing. So why wasn’t she taken already? Full time single mom with a full time job and a major shy streak. We had similar values and goals.
I never became very excited about the relationship and ended it after a few months. I was not ready. You can’t know anything about Jennifer’s bf except that he isn’t into her as an LTR.
My easy dating experience taught me the lesson in this blog post. Prior to that I was smitten by a woman, and we dated some, but mostly I was trying to win her. I enjoyed her company and she enjoyed mine, but she wasn’t into being in a relationship with me (from her later dating patterns I think she wasn’t into being in a relationship at all, but that is a moot point. The reason doesn’t matter). That experience was work for me. After the contrast of seeing how easy dating can be, I learned that putting energy into chasing chasing chasing is a waste of effort. Yes, I put energy into dating and going out of your way to spend time do things to make her happy, and I did it joyfully not because I was trying to convince someone. When “convince” becomes part of what you are doing, it is time to cut your losses. They will either come around on their own or they won’t.
Something like mirroring works well for men too; if a woman doesn’t call you/email you back in a day or so, at least with a “I’m busy right now, but do want to talk to you later” maybe try once more, but then cut your losses and move on. She might be busy and gets back to you in a week with an explanation, but there is nothing to be gained by reaching out over and over. Next! Women, if you find yourself not wanting to reply to man, and don’t value his potential enough to even dash off a quick text that you will get back to him, then you should say next too. You should want to respond to him. If it isn’t easy and natural for you, move onto the next man or take a break from dating. ”¨”¨”¨
After seeing the difference between working to date someone and easy to date, (and becoming ready myself) I returned to dating. I quickly went through about 2 dozen women I wasn’t into or they weren’t into me and then I met my wife.
Lia says
Selena,
Thank you for the cyber-hug! You wrote, (quoting another woman) “ I wish this myth that good relationships take hard work would die!” Today for me it did. I feel euphoric… after the crying and crying until I didn’t think there was any tears left. Relationships are easy. I just keep saying it over and over. I have hope, I feel renewed!
Evan Marc Katz says
Lia, are you in FOCUS Coaching? If not, you should be. Would love to see you there:
marymary says
I don’t think it’s necessarily true that he’s just not that into her and he’d step up if someone hotter/better came along. I expect that he’s given as much as he is capable of, ie not much. If she’s a victoria’s secret model then he might burn brighter a bit longer before fizzling out, that’s all. I know someone who has had three wives and numerous other relationships and is still looking for the perfect woman. He’s over sixty now.
Of course, he may just not be into it, in which case he ought to man up and end it. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. I’d say the same to a woman, except she should woman up, who’s stringing a man along because she doesn’t want to hurt him. As if taking up someone’s time and emotion is so kind and thoughtful! But since it’s not the OP who is writing in, Jennifer needs to do what he won’t and look after her own interests.
Conflict avoidance is very common amongst those of us who’ve had difficult reltionship history. You don’t get what you want out of life by taking the line of least resistance. Waiting and waiting for someone to come good, or conversely to get fed up and walk away, seems low risk and easy but sometimes you gotta do the difficult thing. The more you lose sight of yourself and your goals the harder it is to find them again. (But not impossible).
Lucy says
Evan, this is one of the best posts you have ever written. You are absolutely right that people who characterize relationships as work are those who married the wrong partners.
JB says
John #23 is right it works both ways. We as men are the CEO’s of our relationships too and if interns (women) aren’t good enough to get “hired” long term we’ll either do the fade away or end it. I date women all the time that I KNOW have an expiration date from the very beginning and when I find one that doesn’t she’ll know it.
Joe says
While I agree with Evan’s point about good relationships not being hard work, I don’t quite agree that this relationship is necessarily a bad one–yet. Almost always relationships have a pursuer and a pursued. (IIRC, Evan even suggests that women exclusively allow themselves to be pursued. This puts the man in the role of the pursuer.) Often, in nascent relationships, there is a switch in roles between the pursuer and the pursued. The man initiates the pursuit, but after a few months, the roles reverse. If the couple can’t negotiate these switches, the relationship is obviously doomed. It sounds to me like the LW’s situation could fit the pattern.
This isn’t where I first heard about pursuer-pursued role switching, but it does describe it well (was first Google hit and I’m too lazy to keep searching 🙂 ): http://www.veronicatonay.com/pursuer.html
JoeK says
Wow – quote of the year here:
John #23
“The debate whether the guy is ready or isn’t ready is pointless. That has nothing to do with it. He isn’t into the OP enough to take things to the next step. When a guy meets someone that he wants to advance things with, he does it.“
Women seem to want to dissect everything, to get down to the nitty-gritty details of how/why (at least every woman I’ve ever dated did this, as well as my friends and sister). While interesting (and perhaps insightful), in the end, all that dissection overlooks the most basic thing: (most) men do what they want – we take action.
And isn’t this what Evan is always saying? Observe his actions.
Amelia2.0 says
I think relationships are “work” like tending a healthy garden is “work”. Of course you have to make the time and put in the effort to till the soil, weed, prune, water, and shoo away pests. You also have to be patient with the results. But when you see all of your the plants happily growing and blooming and beautiful – and feel that swell of pride that comes with enjoying what you’ve earned – then the “hard work” really doesn’t feel that way because you are completely satisfied with your result.
However, a relationship is the kind of garden where one person cannot to do it all and do it indefinitely. The garden needs two enthusiastic people in cooperation to make it flourish year after year. If your fellow gardener has a setback, then you need to step up, as long as there is a promise that they will do the same for you when YOU have a setback.
However, if your fellow gardener doesn’t actually care or stops caring about the garden, or doesn’t really know how to tend a garden (and doesn’t care to learn), then you can choose to pick up the slack here as well…in which case THEN the tilling, weeding, and de-pesting will soon feel like awful, wasteful work, because it’s all you will be doing with your time and effort, with marginal results and with no end in sight. At least, until YOU decide to rip it all up and just start all over.
Then again, if YOU are the poor gardener, then it’s not a bad idea to own up to that and work on that brown thumb.
Henriette says
@MaryMary30 – “I don’t think it’s necessarily true that he’s just not that into her and he’d step up if someone hotter/better came along. I expect that he’s given as much as he is capable of, ie not much. If she’s a victoria’s secret model then he might burn brighter a bit longer before fizzling out, that’s all.” I suspect this is the truth.
However, at the end of the day, we can’t know what’s in this guy’s head or heart; he probably isn’t completely aware of it, himself. What we do know is that Jennifer isn’t getting what she wants or needs from her partner and hasn’t since the relationship began “for real.” No need to try to convince him of anything. Evan is right; just move on, girl.
Liz says
I needed to read this, this am. I have grown so much in the wonderful world of dating after divorce. It took so long till I was ready to go out there and be able to be a “good date.” Read a whole bunch, including Evan’s book and love his advice. A relationship is natural and organic, but should never be something you labor to create or maintain.
What your response doesn’t mention though Evan (and its a good one it kicked my butt and made me smile as the CEO) is a good dose of what to do when you have mirrored, always make it to 6-8 dates, cut loose those that aren’t interested in being in a long term relationship, and this happens over and over again while you look for your prince, right when you start to get excited. It can be so wonderful meeting someone, clicking with someone, slowing moving towards being closer over a month or two, but it is very hard when a man realizes he can’t make you feel safe and happy for whatever reason and is standing there trying to explain this to you. Even the toughest ego and the most optimistic girl can feel sad and can’t help but think “what is wrong with me?” I am having one of those days despite this great post and was wondering what everyone does in these situations.
Lia says
Evan,
Funny you should ask… 🙂 After crying my eyes out (still doing that at the drop of a hat these past 24 hours) one of my first thoughts was, “Oh sh*t, I am going to have to lose this weight before I go on line.”
The realization that “relationships are hard work” is a lie – is THE linchpin for me. I now understand why I immediately stopped exercising and gained weight when circumstances in my life changed and for the first time in years I would be available to have a relationship. I couldn’t face what I believed would be even more hard work.
I woke up to a very different world this morning. It is a world full of hope and possibilities. I was up before 6 this morning excited to work out. I was up even before my alarm went off because I have a plan…
My goal is to be back into my “skinny”/ dating clothes by December and go back on line then. I start back to school this summer. I by the end of September I will have my taxes paid off and I will get “Finding The One On Line” (I want to study your program before I go on line.) Then in December (during Christmas break) I am going to jump back in to the dating pool, and I will be doing your Focus Coaching!!!!
Lia
P.S. Started reading the letters from the women you helped but started crying again and had to stop reading. I have to go to work and can’t have nasty mascara running down my face. How do I turn off this faucet? 🙂
Julia says
echoing what JoeK said
John #23“The debate whether the guy is ready or isn’t ready is pointless. That has nothing to do with it. He isn’t into the OP enough to take things to the next step. When a guy meets someone that he wants to advance things with, he does it.“
After about 2 months of focus coaching and 28 first dates in 10 months, I found a guy like this. Even though I was aloof he was persistent. He took every step to see me and let me know after 5 weeks that I was his girlfriend. Its now been 6 months, he’s met my parents, we talk about the future. We have a comfortable relationship and the two minor minor disputes we’ve had have been about communication. Its totally easy.
John says
Lia @38
My goal is to be back into my “skinny”/ dating clothes by December and go back on line then.
Lia this is the right attitude for sure. Get yourself in order physically and then do the dating thing. I have talked to overweight women who say they are about to embark on an exercise program but they want to date in the present. I rarely go out with them because when I did, they never really met their goal. Or they refused to listen to my advice on how to properly workout and after 3 months of going on a treadmill for an hour a day, they still looked the same.
I am very into weight lifting and when I sustained an injury that preventing me from training for over a year, I didn’t date. Once I was able to resume and got it all back, then I hit the market and it was smooth sailing. But if I tried going out with girls from online dating where it is all visual, I would have failed miserably when I was still scrawny.
Take before and after pictures. And once you meet your goal (do weights instead of just cardio!)show any new guys your transformation. Any guy that is into fitness will have great admiration for that. And use those new pictures in your new profile.
Tom10 says
Liz #37
“What your response doesn’t mention though Evan is a good dose of what to do when you have mirrored, always make it to 6-8 dates…and this happens over and over again…it is very hard when a man realizes he can’t make you feel safe and happy for whatever reason…Even the toughest ego and most optimistic girl can feel sad and can’t help but think “what is wrong with me?”…was wondering what everyone does in these situations”
I’m sorry you’re feeling a bit down at the moment Liz – you always seem so sweet in your comments. I hope you don’t mind me trying to answer this one and let you know how I deal with it. I would say the best way to deal with this is from three different angles: 1) Dealing with rejection, 2) Keeping your feelings in check until he’s your boyfriend and 3) developing a sense of self that is based on your behavior not someone else’s.
1) Rejection. Unfortunately rejection really sucks, for everybody. The only way I managed to deal with it was by realising one day that 99% of women in the world don’t want me, so it’s just a matter of finding the 1% that do. Whenever I think of the times I was rejected I just immediately force myself to think of something else, anything else. Over time thoughts of the incident recur less and less and eventually just fade away.
2) Evan has a great axiom that says “until he’s your boyfriend he’s not real.” Keep reminding yourself in the early stages of dating that until your man steps up to the plate, he is just an illusion. Everyone is on best behavior in this period so you’re not seeing the real person underneath. I know it can be difficult to keep your feelings in check though, especially if they seem like a great prospect.
3) Self-worth. This is probably the most important. It is really important for everybody to base their sense of self and self-esteem on their own behavior and achievements and not on someone else’s. Be proud of who you are, what you have achieved and how you affect those around you. Try not letting the opinion of some guy you hardly know affect you.
I know all these things are easier said than done, but by thinking like this over time you will eventually radiate confidence and positivity which are such attractive traits.
Good luck.
PS. There is nothing wrong with you.
Liz says
It just seems so odd that it is always happening in that time frame, and it follow the same pattern. Its like a switch. It hurts to think that I keep running into these fantastic people, that seek me out, pursue me, and then when things start creeping up towards sealing the deal so to speak, and I tell them I really like being with them, and I am having fun, but only feel safe being that close in a committed relationship, where we are both open to seeing where it goes, they withdraw. Luckily I am not getting like a total fade away, but then its we need to “talk” and they want to “still be friends.” This one I had just went on vacation with out-of-state. I am scared that it will effect my ability to be open, honest and loving at some point.
Lia says
John (# 40),
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. My workout routine includes both cardio and weights, your right you do need both. I am very tenacious that trait is a bit of a double edge sword, but in this case I believe it will serve me. I have no doubt that I will meet my goal, and no intention of going on line until I do.
Now I understand why I stopped working out. I use to get up at 4:30 six mornings a week to work out – when there was no chance I could have a relationship. Now that I am excited about having a relationship I don’t need to sabotage myself.
Oh and the before pictures… Never. Going. To. Happen... LOL.. I’m just sayin’… Yikes!!!
starthrower68 says
Let him go. You are Ms. Right Now. This has dead end written all over it.
Lia says
Amelia2.0
Nice analogy! I really love a good analogy!
Julia #39
Yeah!!! So happy for you.
Tom10 #41
WOW! I liked your response to Liz.
Liz # 42
I wish I had something to offer that would make you feel better. You are in the right place if you are wanting to understand men, dating, relationships, and love… and who knows maybe you will even get a better understanding of yourself. 🙂
JoeK says
@Liz #42
First – it may have nothing at all to do with you – they may just not be the right guys for you.
That being said – if they’re made it to the 8-week mark I’d say they must be pretty interested in you, and interested in finding out how much they really do like you (remember – us guys don’t know how we feel about you until we know how we feel about it – for many of us it just “comes to us” one day – and asking us for it sooner simply doesn’t work).
I may be misreading your posts but it sounds like your approach may come across like an ultimatum…and that never works because (as Evan has noted elsewhere here) it’s asking him to commit to something he doesn’t know how he feels about yet. And if he’s a “good guy”, he doesn’t want to mislead you…while a “not good guy” probably wouldn’t have made it that far, or would just tell you what you want to hear.
Because of this, I suspect these are decent guys who are just a bit thrown at that point. Note I’m not saying you’re doing anything “wrong”, or that what I’m about to say is contradictory with everything else here.
“…I tell them I really like being with them, and I am having fun, but only feel safe being that close in a committed relationship, where we are both open to seeing where it goes, they withdraw.”
If I heard this after a couple months of dating it would be kind of jarring – it would make me think “where the heck did this come from…does she not trust me?” I’m not saying you’re wrong to communicate this, I just wonder if perhaps your timing is off a little.
One approach that I think may work better is to ask your dates for their perspectives on things…rather than to just present your requirements. So then you’re not presenting a set of hurdles/challenges to overcome, but exploring who he is.
Since dating is a process of discovering each other’s nature/values, then asking questions as you go along should help you discover if he’s the right guy for you, rather than if you’re the right girl for him. Whether you’re the right girl for him is his concern – and his job to determine.
Naturally these questions will start out with more mundane things in the beginning (do you prefer italian or mexican food?) and progress along with the dating. Being naturally curious about their life /perspective is key – it should be a fun discovery process and not a “50 questions interrogation”. (All this applies to men on dates too).
At some point you’ll discover his perspectives on life, relationships and marriage – then YOU can choose whether to continue dating him or to move on…rather than wait until he decides to leave. And you’ll have an opportunity to express your needs in a natural way that isn’t presenting them as a set of requirements.
And maybe I completely misread what you were saying! 🙂
Peter says
Relationships change. Work s needed to restore them, by both parties. The original conditione cannot last forever. The repair mechanism is what counts. Not everyone has one.
I never lost weight in 20 years of running. 3 months resistance der use and a whole new set of hormones started work. However, what happens when the new spouse demands attention instead of exercise time? The real fat you emerges. Can they deal with It?
Liz says
It always comes to head after dinner and a few glasses of wine, and lots of kissing, (that is the context) around that time period (6-8 dates). Not really a prude, I am completely into moving around the bases, but for my heart, I kinda of want to make sure that we are both on the same page when we get there.
It comes out that way, I try to let them know how my heart feels and that I am scared. But your right, they are all good guys, in it for a few months, maybe no one really asks them these things. I have never heard that it comes off untrusting, but it is putting them in a position where they know if we sleep together and they aren’t looking for something in the future I will be hurt. I wouldn’t feel right sleeping with someone if it was a casual, or a lets do this and if its good hey we are on our way. Trying to tell myself that the right person getting that close won’t scare them, won’t be work, and we will both want to make each other happy. Hard right now.
Paula says
I’ve had this conversation before with someone who was insistent that all relationships require work. At the time I was dealing with a post-LDR and that didn’t work out and I felt I worked to make it work and it didn’t. My point was that you shouldn’t have to work at your relationship. The key distinction I was trying to make with this person was that relationships require effort and not work.
Effort in the sense that you put time into the relationship and go on dates and manage your own emotional state instead of looking outside of yourself for happiness. Work involved too much struggle and relationships should flow more and feel at ease.
Even the title of this post is off. I just want to say to the letter writer, if you have to convince your man how good you are, he is not worth it. We as women need to give men more credit that they are smart enough to recognize a good woman (for them) when they see one. Trying to convince someone why you are a catch is work. I am not a sales person!
marymary says
Liz, 48
We’ve all been hurt, men included. Anyone who hasn’t been has had limited experience, been very sheltered, or lacks emotion/is in denial, or is the one doing all the hurting. It’s nothing to be ashamed of but you don’t want to come off as being extremely vulnerable or needing to be handled with kid gloves.
If a man said to me “marymary I really like you but before I can progress this relationship I need to know that you won’t cheat on me and run off with my best friend like my ex wife did”, I’d be thinking a) he’s not over the ex b) he doesn’t trust me and c) I can’t handle this!
I do know how you feel. I was in an abusive relationship and toyed with the idea of telling the boyfriend quite early in my relationship. But then I figured it was in the past, I’m over it and my motivation was off. I wasn’t telling him as part of getting to know each other, but more to get special treatment. I don’t need special treatment because a) I am a confident happy person and b) he’s a good person, He doesn’t need to be told to treat me well. It’s just what he does.
If he’s a good guy, you don’t need to warn him off. If he’s not, you shouldn’t be with him. If you’re not sure, give him the benefit of the doubt, ie more time, more getting to know him, more fun. Giving someone the benefit doesn’t meen sleeping with them if you’re not sure, you’re never obliged to do that – but go for a more positive rendering than “don’t hurt me!” Evan sets it out in Why he Disappeared and I’m sure in previous posts.
AS says
I just loved the way that you put that! I think women (and I know that once upon a time this was also me) more often than men forget that they are the ‘CEO’ and the intern needs to meet the job description. If he doesn’t after the probationary period then you just need to cut your loses and find another intern who can!
Lia says
marymary # 50
Wow! So insightful!
“If he’s a good guy, you don’t need to warn him off. If he’s not, you shouldn’t be with him. If you’re not sure, give him the benefit of the doubt, ie more time, getting to know him, more fun. Giving someone the benefit doesn’t mean sleeping with with them if you’re not sure, you’re never obliged to do that – but go for a more positive rendering than ‘don’t hurt me!’”
Can I say again Wow! Yes!!!
Julia says
Liz #48
It always comes to head after dinner and a few glasses of wine, and lots of kissing, (that is the context) around that time period (6-8 dates). Not really a prude, I am completely into moving around the bases, but for my heart, I kinda of want to make sure that we are both on the same page when we get there
Well, it seems like you move very slow physically. At 6-8 dates and only kissing? This isn’t bad but its like your body and heart aren’t moving in sync. If you are moving very slow physically with a guy you should kinda expect he will be moving slow emotionally. If you are on date 8 and are finally making out but also asking for exclusivity, it seems like kind of a hard demand. You are totally in the right for asking for sexclusivity but maybe bring it up before date #8?
I dunno, I think the guys should weigh in here. I’m also the kind of woman who will make out at the end of a decent first date, so my body moves faster than my emotions at times.
JoeK says
@Liz #48
“It always comes to head after dinner and a few glasses of wine, and lots of kissing, (that is the context) around that time period (6-8 dates).”
Do the guys you’re dating really just stop calling you after such a night? If they do, I’m still wondering if it isn’t so much that you’re not on the same page as it is the delivery of the message. Since a “player” isn’t likely to work that hard I think it’s fair to assume these guys are truly interested (and decent guys) – if they weren’t there wouldn’t have been more dates. Since most guys will have sex as soon as you say “yes”, these guys are most likely willing to wait until you’re ready.
I’m not sure Evan’s take on this (I believe he’s covered it, but can’t remember where), but waiting to bring up your limits at that point (everything that night’s been leading up “fun times”) can come across as “flakey”….leaving a guy to wonder “if this was an issue why didn’t she bring it up sooner?”. I know I’ve walked away from every woman who’s acted like this because it’s not worth the effort to figure out whether she’s a game player or just flakey – since neither one is any fun to deal with. I’m not saying you’re flakey – but that’s just how men usually interpret it.
To me this goes back to the approach of exploring each other’s perspectives/values through the dating process. These limits need to be addressed well before you’re “in the moment”.
For a far-flung, silly analogy, what would you think of this person:
Joe’s company decides to reward the staff by taking them to a well-known steak house. Since it’s a company event, eveything’s been pre-ordered – everyone gets surf-n-turf courtesy of the boss!
So they all go to the event, and when the waiter delivers Joe’s steak and lobster to the table, Joe says “just so you know, I’m a vegetarian, so all I want is the potato”.
Wouldn’t it seem a little late for Joe to let them know he doesn’t eat steak or lobster? Would it have been smarter of Joe to approach his boss before the event and let him know his personal limitations, so the boss could decide what to do about it? Perhaps the boss would’ve said “well then don’t go” or “hey, that’s ok, let’s figure out what you can have instead of steak”. What do you suppose the boss would think of Joe’s behavior at the steak house?
Of course dating isn’t exactly the same, and figuring out how to explore our values together isn’t always easy. But I’d say that presenting the “I only have sex within a committed relationship” comes across with a lot more integrity in a conversation over coffee or lunch (even if it’s a bit uncomfortable) than it does in the middle of kissy-time. You may even broach it as a question to him (within context of a relevant conversation of course) – “How do you feel about sex before marriage”. Yes, before marriage is the wording I chose – because it’s a very different than “causual sex” or “sex without a relationship”. It’s a fair question that won’t offend any decent guy, and it opens the door for the conversation to lead to your values. At the same time it infers that you have a value system and don’t just have sex at the drop of a hat.
Good luck!
Frimmel says
JoeK in #54 referencing Liz’s comments:
“Since most guys will have sex as soon as you say “yes”, these guys are most likely willing to wait until you’re ready.
I’m not sure Evan’s take on this (I believe he’s covered it, but can’t remember where), but waiting to bring up your limits at that point (everything that night’s been leading up “fun times”) can come across as “flakey”….leaving a guy to wonder “if this was an issue why didn’t she bring it up sooner?”. I know I’ve walked away from every woman who’s acted like this because it’s not worth the effort to figure out whether she’s a game player or just flakey — since neither one is any fun to deal with. I’m not saying you’re flakey — but that’s just how men usually interpret it.”
That’s exactly how I’d interpret it. And that’s rather a charitable interpretation. If he’s been out with you seven times it isn’t ‘casual’ even if he’s not that into you. What’s the line from “Music Man?” “I’ve come up through the ranks on this skirmish and I’m not retiring without my commission.”
What you’re describing Liz is exactly how men end up devastated, bitter, angry, frustrated, and confused about women. It is how men end up taking “Seduce and Destroy” classes from Frank T.J. Mackey.
Liz says
Oh there is usually some clothes off and hands flying everywhere with the kissing by that time in the dating sequence. Like I said, not a prude, and love to have fun and be wrapped up in a man’s arms. I have just learned that a number of guys, for whatever reason, aren’t looking for long term situations, as I am sure some women aren’t. If you jump into bed before that is established and you know 99 percent of relationships aren’t gonna work, that is so much heart ache, and for me, really destroys my self esteem because then I am vested. Nothing feels worse then hey we had a great 3 months, wonderful sex and broke up and your on Match.com the next day. Dagger to the heart.
I think they see me and think for her, I either up my game (commit) or its better to end it now because she is the kinda of girl I want to be with when I am ready, but right I’m not (thats the vibe I give off I feel). They are all decent guys doing everything right as far as dating, communicating with me, spending time with me. Timing I guess. It will all work itself out, just gonna take a little down time then return to finding my prince. 🙂
Alexandra says
I was reminded of Evan’s sound advice when I read an interview with Nicholas Sparks in People magazine recently. When asked about what is the “secret” to his marriage of 24 years, Sparks answered “Choose well. That’s it.”
nathan says
I agree with Joe’s comments that it’s better to address sensitive issues like sex earlier on, and before you’re in the middle of heated action. Of course, sometimes it doesn’t work out the way we’d want it to. Or you think you’re ready, and then realize you aren’t in the middle of an escalated sexual situation. That’s just how it goes sometimes, but anything you can do to initiate the conversation beforehand in a way that expresses curiosity and interest rather than judgment is worth doing.
With that said, Liz, I don’t think what you’ve experienced is just about sex and commitment. There are numerous reasons why people don’t make it past a few months most of the time. And sometimes the answer isn’t anything concrete at all, just a feeling that it’s not right. I’ve been on both sides of the equation plenty of times, and eventually realized that for the most part, what happened really wasn’t about who I am. Certainly, there were things I learned and did differently because of some dating situations, but for the most part it just wasn’t a good match, and that’s that.
I actually believe that no matter how good things are between a couple early on, there’s going to be some level of uncertainty because you don’t know each other very well. People seem to forget this all the time, expecting that rom-com “We just knew from the beginning” kind of experience to happen. Evan’s take on Jennifer’s guy seems accurate though, especially given the recentness of his divorce and his near total disappearance.
Still, it’s important to get a handle on what base level commitment means, and how it will not eliminate risk. You can make the decision to be exclusive, and have sex, and still get hurt in the end. There’s always risk involved. It’s definitely better than leaving everything casual and hoping for the best. But I think too much weight gets put on “getting the commitment,” as if that’s the thing that will make everything ok and safe.
Ruby says
I’m on OKCupid, which has lots of profile questions. The answers I’ve seen from men to these questions have surprised me. One is, “How long would you like your next relationship to last?”, and the other is,” Which is more important to you right now, sex or true love?” I’ve been surprised by the number of men who have answered “A few months to a year” to the first question (rather than “Several years” or “The rest of my life”) and answered “Sex” to the second question. Plus, they let it be known on a public dating site, where it might not be in their best interests to do so. Not that everyone reads through all the Q & A.
So I think this idea that if a man finds someone he is really into, he will commit to her, isn’t always the case. There are also quite a few men who aren’t players in the sense of looking for a quick fling, but neither are they looking for a serious commitment. A relationship that lasts a few months is fine with them. I suspect that many of these men (often divorced) are not ready to embark on another serious relationship. Some may just be commitmentphobes. And we are not even talking about the men who think they are ready after a divorce, even when it turns out later on that they aren’t.
I’ve gotten to the point where I take any hesitation from a man that he isn’t ready seriously, even if he might claim otherwise when asked.
Julia says
@Ruby unless a guy says he never wants to get married, its a bad strategy to filter out guys who haven’t answered “the rest of their lives” on these questions. Be the woman he would never want to leave. Remember how men look for sex and find love?
JoeK says
@Liz # 56
“Oh there is usually some clothes off and hands flying everywhere with the kissing by that time in the dating sequence.”
Yes, if you bring it up at this point, you’re acting flakey, and the guy is thinking “what the hell?”. Yep – I’ve been there, done that, too many times to count. After the first time I learned to walk away and never look back.
DEFINITELY bring it up sooner – otherwise it comes across like you’re bartering a relationship for sex.
Think about it…if at the point where clothes are coming off the guy looked at you and said “I only have sex within a polyamorous relationship – and I currently have 3 ‘wives’, and you’ll be #4″…how would you react?
JoeK says
@Liz
It really does seem like it’s nothing more than timing…which means it’s REALLY EASY to fix! 🙂
Just bring it up earlier in the dating process…heck by date #3 you should be fairly comfortable and talking about values some anyway.
Again, I think if you take a curious approach (asking about him, his experiences, what he wants) without an agenda, he’ll be likely to respond positively, and it should stir his own curiosity about you.
Liz says
We talk about it before that point. Not 1st date, but if they get to 3-5 dates it usually comes up naturally. I don’t wait till we are naked and say, tit for tat and please decide in 5 minutes, because I would like to get to this right now if it is a yes. I am confident but not pushy, in what my boundaries are, and never lead anyone on that I wouldn’t want to try a relationship with. I follow Evan’s rules from the book and his advise regarding mirroring and communication.
But if it gets close after we have talked about it, I do tell him we have to stop because I want to make sure he is open to it all. I also tell him its hard because this feels so good and right, but I want to feel safe and that we both want this. Good thing is I have never sleep with someone who lied and then didn’t call me the next day (knock on wood), or we didn’t make a solid run at being together after. Downside is it weeds out the 99.99% that aren’t meant for me, and my sex life isn’t nearly is good as it should be. 🙂 No guarantee on a great outcome but it helps when you have taken the time to get to know them and they stick around.
For amusement purposes for everyone tonight: he signed up for 4 other dating sites today: Okcupid, Zoosk, Plenty of Fish, active on Match with new pictures, and Our Time. Yes I checked, and no I didn’t check adultfindfinder.com or craigslist. Gotta wish him the best and pick yourself up! Life of a single girl dating in the city.
Ruby says
Julia #60
The men I’m dating are in the over-40 age range, so you would think they’d have it more figured out by this time. However, I do not rule them out entirely; I still give them a chance, but I’ve found that these men are true to their word, and not looking for anything serious, no matter how excited about me they might seem.
Fusee says
Agreed with Evan. Love the anology as well! Convincing = problem. Been there, done that, loooong time ago, and it was a slow destroying of my self-respect. The expiration date of that relationship was three month and my pleading and convincing made it last an extra year, where he kept me as a “twice a week girl” for sexual purposes. At least that part was fun. It was of course harder to end it at that point but I did and it was such a relief. Never again did I try to convince a man! I decided that my awesomeness was self-explanatory : )
I also totally agree with JoeK, Frimmel, and nathan, and I’m actually thrilled to finally read some men’s comments on this issue of “when to bring up the no sex without exclusivity talk”. I remember an old thread where I mentioned my preference for explaining my views on physical intimacy before getting all hard and wet, and there were criticism over that preference. Which is fine, but I’m glad to read about some men’s dislike to be led on to believe that intercourse will happen, only to be told once rock hard that “Nope, for that you need to give me commitment.”
On the other hand I also relate to nathan’s comment @58: “But I think too much weight gets put on “getting the commitment,” as if that’s the thing that will make everything ok and safe.” It’s of course a necessary baseline (duh!), but it’s really not enough for me. Actually I’ve never even had to deal with non-exclusivity, since exclusivity has always been the dating framework I would operate into. If we want to be wise (which is even better than safe), we need exclusivity + commitment to explore the relationship for long-term potential + already a solid idea that there is enough compatibility of goals, values, communication styles, etc. before going too involved emotionally and physically.
I stopped having sex, and making out, without having a solid idea of all three. Pursuing a relationship within that framework still does not garantee anything, heck even a marriage does not garantee anything, but it’s much safer than clinging to the elusive promise of exclusivity. And if a man is into you and is open to exploring a potential to something longer-term, he will gladly talk about goals and values, so long as it comes from curiosity and not a demand for a relationship. That’s been my experience and it has worked fine. Now, the tricky part is WHEN and HOW to communicate these preferences. It has to happen pretty quickly, yet AFTER an emotional connexion has been established. To me, the art of dating is to establish such connexion early on AND without the crutch of physical intimacy. When there is an emotional connexion, all these complex conversations become a bit easier, and if this happens relatively quickly, sex is not postponed for too long, and everybody wins.
And finally, I really like the distinction that Paula makes @49 between “work” and “effort”. I agree with the fact that happy and healthy relationships should not involve the kind of hard work that means struggle, confusion, pain, etc. But to my experience most relationships do require some serious effort, depending on the characters and personalities involved. Being pretty reactive and intense, I can garantee you that it takes ongoing effort on my part to practice self-control and equanimity. It does not make my relationship bad to need that kind of effort. As Karmic Equation wrote in another thread, if it feels good after the fact, it’s all good.
nathan says
Ruby #59 “I’ve gotten to the point where I take any hesitation from a man that he isn’t ready seriously, even if he might claim otherwise when asked.”
It’s interesting. I totally get what you’re talking about here, and the examples you bring up of the places the men are at in their lives. And with men who are clearly either struggling to move on from their past, or who are clearly just looking for fun, you’re approach makes total sense. But it also made me wonder about timing and appearances.
In my experience, expressing a desire for commitment too quickly isn’t a great sign either. I dated someone last winter (early 2012) who was calling me “soul mate” after a few weeks, and starting to ask me questions about children and the like not long after. For my part, I demonstrated an unwavering desire for a relationship, even after she began to flip about and doubt things. In a lot of ways, the whole experience was like mirroring shadows. We had the right appearances for a short time, but the reality was that it all had moved too fast. As a result, when I met my current girlfriend, who wanted to take things much slower, I was not only ok with that, but actually desired it myself. And this included a delayed demonstration of seriousness and commitment on my part. Not because I wanted something casual, but exactly because of what Fusee speaks of in #65 about developing a more complete picture of someone first. It seems off, somehow, to expect someone to be serious about YOU in a rather short time frame. When they really don’t know you enough to make such a decision.
Odds are that you’re right the majority of the time that guy X simply isn’t in a place to be serious and commit. However, I have to wonder if sometimes it’s more about not having spent enough time to actually know you. And being able to make that step from a place of confidence, as opposed to from a place of lust, which is where my ex-girlfriend and I both operated from last winter.
Alyssa says
@Liz:
I completely empathize with your experiences, and i think it is probably a mixture of a) coming across men who may *wish* they were available, but who aren’t in reality and b) asking for relationship commitment when it is more appropriate to ask for exclusivity.
I think the message of “I can’t have sex with you until you are my boyfriend” is very different from “I can’t have sex with you until we mutually agree to not see other people”. I think the latter is much more realistic and less high pressure, it also puts you in the driver seat because it is something you must BOTH agree to.
That being said- with my current boyfriend (and former friend for many years), I just said casually with a big grin, “you know if we have sex I’m going to want you to be my boyfriend” and his reply was “I’d be honored.” So all in all your approach may be a little off, but I think it probably has more to do with not having met the right guy, yet.
Keep at it, it took me 2 years of fits and starts to finally find myself in a solid relationship BUT I learned so much along the way that prepared me to be successful in my current relationship.
Ingrid says
Contrary to Evan I do believe a relationship can be work until the two of you are in a good emotional maturity stage. But ultimately you want it to be easy. Simply I would not throw the baby and the water until you have explored an issue, communicated well about it and have the inofrmation you need to make a sound decision, and take a step forward whatever it is it will be. We are not all in a great emotional, mature stage in our own mind and skin, relationships, interactions between men and women are not all natural and easy and being mature is also recognising it and working on it. On one side I think it is important you feel good with yourself and maintain your boundaries, know what you want, what you don’t want, how you feel about the situation. If he is telling you he is afraid you will be upset if he has his alone time, it is good information he is sharing with you. Then it is role to react to it an tell him how you feel about it. You can perfectly tell him you feel hurt he is pulling away and tell him exactly how you feel about the issue he raised with you, e.g. you believe it is good you both have your own activities, activities that nurture you, make you happy as an individual. And you value that freedom and me-time. But on the other hand you also value a lot the time and interaction you have together and you want it to be easy and fun and you don’t want to feel like there is an elephant in the room. See how he reacts to you speaking your heart/feelings truly, with calm and confidence, and it can be said warmly and in a very feminine way. His reaction will tell you a lot. It seems to me he is still very affected by his divorce, this is something he has to go through and he must decide for himself if he can leave the past in the past and move to a new relationship and build that trust with someone again. But you can’t make him do anything. You can only tell him how you feel and respond to his actions/reactions. Only from thatplace you can interact well and decide. Good luck!
Ruby says
Nathan #66
I’m definitely a proponent of taking things slowly. It’s proved to be a good way to rule out those who want to keep their involvements casual, but it isn’t foolproof. I don’t expect anyone to be serious about me right away, either, just open to a more serious relationship if things go well. My point was that there are always plenty of men who play a hard and fast game of not getting too attached, for whatever reason. They are even fine with dating someone exclusively, as long as it’s just for a few months.
JoeK says
@Liz
“We talk about it before that point.”
Hmmm….ok, I must’ve misunderstood what you meant earlier. Guess I have to agree with Alyssa that these just aren’t the guys for you.
I love how Alyssa handled it with her boyfriend – light and with humor. Granted they had been friends for some time, so there’s some trust already. I can just imagine his reaction if she had delivered it with more of a challenging tone!
Liz – all you can do is present your needs in a non-critical, non-adversarial non-challenging way…then it’s on him what to do with that information.
Gina says
Hey Liz
When I knew that I wanted a healthy relationship, I like Evan put into analogy “became the CEO of Gina, Inc… and that meant I had a screening process. There was no way I would end up on a date with a man who did not have time, money, emotional availability and desire for a relationship. I would in a fun and playful way ask their opinions on values and what I wanted that I found most important, and also willing to walk away if they did not meet those factors. I would listen and ask questions, making sure he didnt just get out of a relationship, sounds like he has a good head on his shoulders and is the type of guy I am looking for. When you qualify someone, you easily disqualify the ones that you may have spent 3-4 dates or more that is not the right man for you.
Liz says
Thanks will take this all to heart,
already feeling a little better.
Dina Strange says
[email protected], if u know a woman has expiration date, why do you DATE her at all?
Clare says
Liz 42
I received some wonderful advice recently: if you steer your life and your heart in the direction you want to go, you will get there.
One thing I couldn’t help but notice from your post is that you bring up the issue of a committed relationship with guys. It really should be coming from them. The only reason we women ask for it is because we feel insecure about the situation. I think it is fine and even a very good idea to express your views about relationships, but be careful how it is done, and is coming from a place of security and self-esteem, and is not asking the guy for something.
On the other hand, I believe that once you are in a genuinely good place for a relationship, there is not much you can do to scare the right guy away, shy of constant drama and pursuing.
Joe says
@ Dina #73:
Perhaps JB just wants some female company? Maybe he just wants a little action? Any number of reasons.
Liz says
@Clare
Normally its after a lot of dates, and on the heels of do we take this to a completely intimate relationship we are both open to, or take a left at the crossroads. No pursuing or drama, they drive the boat, I am just there enjoying the ride for the most part.
I think everyone is right, if its right, you are secure, open and happy, (and they are too), and the chemistry is there, no guy would shy away from a discussion, albeit at the right time and tone, about what both parties are looking for. Oh, and its not they don’t call me back after it comes to a head, or meet me. That is when the whole “I have been thinking about us” and the lets be friends talk happens. Stars will align soon enough. Timing is everything. 🙂 Good to know a lot of us are out there fighting the same fight.
Gina says
Excellent reply Evan! All of my life I have been told that a good relationship requires work to sustain. As a result, I found myself in relationships where I was trying to prove myself and win the object of my affections over. Oftentimes, I stayed in a no win situation longer than I should.
Older and wiser now, I have gotten pretty darn good at screening and weeding out men who are not going to make good partners for me.
Better to be happily single than miserably married.
JoeK says
@Fusee #65
“And if a man is into you and is open to exploring a potential to something longer-term, he will gladly talk about goals and values, so long as it comes from curiosity and not a demand for a relationship.“
Wow – so well put, Fusee!
Asking questions with an agenda is often obvious, and makes men skittish. It tends to come across like the agenda (having a realtionship/marriage) is more important than discovering if the woman truly likes the guy/if they share values.
Lia says
@ Fusee # 65
I second Joe K… well put!!! (As usual, I might add.) 🙂
Karmic Equation says
@Liz
May I ask how long you were married and if your husband was your first lover?
I’m only asking this because it seems you put so much weight on “being in a relationship” before intimacy, it sounds very virginal.
While you may have been married, you seem virginal-minded and are acting/communicating very much like a virgin. Not a judgment, just an observation. I think this post (http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/03/what-men-think-about-your-virginity.html) might shed some light on why the men you’ve been dating have acted the way they have.
I’m not sure you can change your mindset, which is kind of sweet. You might have better luck if you dated secularly? Like trying http://www.christianmingle.com/ ? I would think that people on secular sites date in a way that is more aligned with the way YOU naturally think about sex.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
liz says
No a virgin at all and its not a religious requirement. It
has just been how I have always been. I did have an interesting
conversation with a man I use to date last year. I don’t normally
remain friends with those people that I have dated, but he is a
wonderful man. He was dating me and another women at the same time.
After 3 months we talked about where this all was going and how I
wanted to feel safe to continue to see him and move forward as he
desired. He admitted that because of the divorce (3 years
and hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorneys’ fees) he wasn’t
open to falling in love again or giving all of himself. He just
held back a lot and I am a very passionate, bubbly, touchy feely
person. I told him I understood and with a few tears stopped seeing
him. But he continued to see the one women, still is. He said we
have been sleeping together for so long, but I still have
commitment issues. I said how can you sleep with someone for a
year, and not love and want to be committed to that one? His
response: the good catholic girl (I am not a practicing catholic he
was teasing me) wouldn’t wait to see, and this one took what I was
willing to give. At first I was jealous, I wanted to be in her
place, as I truly connected with this man and did love him. His
daughter adores me and has emailed me and said you were my fathers
match and soul mate (she is 18). But then I thought about our
discussion on timing, he still isn’t ready so in the end it is all
about timing. If I had sleep with him, I would be in her position
begging for him to open up, trying to fix a broken man, and not
fulfilled at all (and we know that is not a good place). Even
though I said I was taking a break I did go out with someone last
night that was a great deal of fun. I needed to get out.
Admittedly, I thought about the CFO all last night and the 5
internet site guy, which I felt guilty about. 🙂
JB says
@Dina Strange#73 Joe is right. We’re men and (at 52 yrs old) we have to take what we can get if you want a little company, a little sex etc….. I’m not going to be celibate and lonely just because I can’t find someone I have deep feelings for. Life goes on. I don’t offer monogamy or a time limit if I can’t deliver it. It’s that simple.
elli says
@Liz 42
Liz, I feel for you because I ´ve been in your shoes. I used to be very open, sincere, but it didn ´t work with men. My advice is this: When you feel the man has started withdrawing, don ´t panic and force yourself to let him distance himself. Don ´t ask him anything relationship related, just casual things. Because when you ask directly and the guy isn ´t ready yet, it doesn ´t necessarily mean that he will never be ready. Maybe he just needs more time to work out his feelings towards you. So when you ask him, he doesn ´t know what to respond so as not to hurt you he decides to tell you “let ´s be friends.” If you let him go, however, he will always be back, believe me. And when he returns, he will know how he really feels, so you ´ll get your answer without uselessly spoiling your chances by being impatient. And that ´s why I agree with Evan that dating casually more than one man is a good idea because you don ´t focus all your expectations on one person.