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I met a handsome professor and he was a good person with a great heart but he continued to ask me over and over why I was going out with him when I could have any man that I want. I am not arrogant and sometimes try to play down my looks and the Jag. Men will say “Ooh, nice car” and I’ll say “Oh, it’s old.” Are men thinking that I am too expensive? Do they think I’m out of their league? I don’t have a league — I just want to meet a nice guy! Help… Niki
Niki,
Let’s flip this over, shall we?
Good looking guy with a big heart and a fat wallet drives a Ferrari. (It’s his second car — the Jag is in the shop).
The only men you can intimidate are the WRONG men.
He goes out on a first date with you. You look at him and swoon, before asking the very serious question: “I don’t get it. Why are you single? You could have anyone.”
He says, earnestly, with a sad smile, “I just haven’t met the right girl.”
You reply, “I get that, but how can I possibly trust you? You’re 37. You’ve probably been with a hundred women. And from everything I’ve experienced, guys like you aren’t solid relationship bets. You’re a lifetime bachelor with looks and money. You’re an alpha male with testosterone and ego. My dating coach told me to run from guys like you and stick with nice guys who want commitment.”
He says, “I am a nice guy — who just happens to be successful. I am very much looking for a wife and family. You can’t judge a book by its cover.”
I don’t know about you, Niki, but I’m sold.
And any guy who chooses to engage you beyond your looks and car will be sold on you as well.
As I’ve said repeatedly, the only men you can intimidate are the WRONG men.
A guy who feels the need to run away because he can’t handle your beauty, success or kindheartedness is nothing but an unfortunate and pathetic little man.
Good riddance to men who are afraid of Ferraris or perfect bodies or PhDs.
They don’t even count in my world.
If you are as great as you say you are, you should have no shortage of quality suitors.
I guess the only question I could ask you is the same question I’d ask of any man who perpetually finds that women are “intimidated” by him: How come you’re letting people get intimidated by you? Why aren’t they seeing your friendly, open, warm, vulnerable side?
If you were a comedian, at a certain point, you can’t keep insisting that you’re funny but “nobody gets the joke”.
As a single person, at a certain point, you can’t keep insisting that “all men” are intimidated by you, no more than a woman who suggests that all men are liars, players, losers or perverts.
It’s easy for you to sit back and say, “I’m great, but no one can handle me.”
It’s harder — and more important — for you to look in the mirror and figure out why.
Niki – I met a very nice lady who had a similar complaint – she felt as though men were intimidated by her wealth. I explained that her profile certainly gave many hints of her wealth – pictures of her sailing in the Med, mention of her beach house, her part-time employment in an art gallery, etc. To cap it off she drove her Porsche for our first dinner.
I explained that men are going to fall into one of three basic groups: 1. those who are intimidated by a wealthy woman; 2. those who are going to view a wealthy woman as a potential “sugar momma”; or 3. those who are not going to be intimidated whatsoever.
My advice was to downplay her wealth & revise her profile; run from slackers looking for a sugar momma; and focus on men who are not going to be intimidated (primarily other high-earners).
Telling a wonderful man who is 5′ 4″ that women who aren’t interested in him are not worth his time or energy isn’t very helpful. There’s a very lengthy blog that discusses the reality that it is more difficult for short men to find a GF. Likewise, many men are going to be intimidated by a woman who is extremely attractive and appears to be wealthy. Is it fair? No, but it is the reality. (Read some of the comments on “Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong Successful Women” and “Pity the Pretty”).
You are in an enviable position in many regards. While some men will always be intimidated by you, you can overcome the initial feelings of intimidation that other men may have by your words and actions — make the man realize that you are truly interested in him for who he is — and the initial feelings of intimidation and uncertainty will soon dissipate.
yeah, there’s a piece missing from this puzzle…I’m a 42 year old guy and I don’t know any guys (but I’m sure they exist in some form) who would not go out with a hot woman with a nice car and nice place… it’s not the car or the apt., it’s something else, trust me
Niki;
People who might (wrongfully or correctly) eliminate a person based on something superficial, would not eliminate that same person if they already knew that person a little bit.
Why not give these guys a chance to know you by leaving the Jaguar at home for several dates?
Steve
Rachael Greenwald covered this exact problem in her book “Have Him at Hello: Confessions from 1,000 Guys About What Makes Them Fall in Love . . . Or Never Call Back”.
It’s what she called “The Park Avenue Princess” problem.
If men think that you’re high-maintenance / “expensive” – i.e. they can’t afford you financially, or don’t think they have anything to offer you – they will back off, no matter how lovely and charming you are.
In my experience, cars are one thing that guys do notice immediately. They may not know how expensive your dress / shoes / handbag is, but they know exactly how expensive your car is.
Don’t drive the Jag to your first few dates with some one new – take a cab.
Let them see the real you minus the heavy bling (expensive car, flashy jewelry). That’s not to say that you must dress like a schlump. Just tone it down a wee bit.
Find a way to work into the conversation what it is about the guy that you find attractive / awesome / admirable that has nothing to do with money / wealth, and ideally is something unique to the guy.
Then he will feel appreciated & admired for himself (not his checkbook) = good ego boost = he won’t be intimidated.
David,
How can you be sure it is something else? I am a lawyer, and I was dating another lawyer years ago. I made partner at my firm. I did not discuss the huge salary increase, but most people in our area know the firm well-and the large salaries that come with partner status. My ex worked as a public defender. We were having dinner one night, and he advised me that he did not want to date a woman who earned more money than he did. Mind you, I NEVER discussed income, bank accounts, or anything else financial with this man. I tried to laugh it off by saying, well, there is simply more to donate to charity. He then advised that he wanted a woman who was the “setting” (for a ring), not the entire “ring” by herself. I never flaunted my success. I always stroked his ego. Of course, we broke up that night. Years later, I am dating a teacher who loves me and just went ring shopping with me. I know he does not have a large salary, and I am fine with that. I picked a classic ring that reminds me of the first ring my father gave my mother when they married years ago. My teacher is a far better man than the 5′ 5″ attorney who suffered from very low self-esteem. He constantly referred to himself as “ugly”. I tried to convince him otherwise. What a waste of time. Some men just don’t understand.
And you just proved David’s point by saying you managed to find a good man. There are men that are gonna be intimidated, that’s true, but when it becomes a pattern, something else is under the waters. Maybe she comes off as pretentious when she shows them her car, or maybe she unconsciously goes after insecure men.
May I point out that the teacher may have a much higher impact on society than any lawyer because the molds his students, instills values and morals, … while lawyers only have a marginal impact on the society.
My father was a teacher and it did happen frequently while being somewhere we walked into one of his old students, he was proud that he did did contribute to the life of his student and the impact he had.
I just used another standard, i.e. a basis for comparison, in which the man is ahead of the woman. But I have to admit such a thing can only be done if the man has high self-esteem.
There is a famous couple in the United States, she was one of the best lawyers in her city, the capital of a small state, he was a local politician, she made much more than he could ever dream of, then he became the 42th president of the United States.
Evan,
If Niki will let me drive the Jag
please give her my cell number.
All best wishes,
Carl
“They may not know how expensive your dress / shoes / handbag is, but they know exactly how expensive your car is.”
haha Robyn, soooo true!
Rachel Greenwald’s book is one of my favorite dating books and every single woman should get their hands on it.
It’s one of those rare dating books that are actually based on raw data.
Robyn hit the nail on the head. Unless they’re wealthy themselves, guys will look at you and think, “I’m not going to be able to afford to keep this woman in the style to which she’s become accustomed; why bother getting to know her?” If you’re well-off, you gotta be low-key about it.
I feel for you Niki but my past experience in dating (prior to my marriage) leads me to believe David is more accurate. In fact, it was a date with a highly successful, attractive woman that led me to realize that my wife to be, was the girl for me. In short, she spent the entire date talking about her career and her travel, that she was never at home. It became clear to me that she wasn’t being honest with herself that she wanted to ‘settle down’. To this day, as far as I know, she still hasn’t and it’s three years later.
If you really want a nice guy who’ll treat you well and his status doesn’t matter, they’re not so hard to find. I don’t think a good man runs from the superficial qualities of looks and wealth, they run from red flags, particularly when they know what they want. But I think as Evan said, look in the mirror first, make sure what it is you really want, and then be open to the types of guys you say you want.
This is another of those interesting scenarios where the men appear to be divided in how they think. Some men commenting here (and in Rachael Greenwald’s book) would not be comfortable dating a wealthy woman, because he would fear that he couldn’t provide for her. Other men such as Carl and david wouldn’t mind at all.
Perhaps this is one of the ways of thinking that needs to change with time. As women on average gain parity with men in terms of income, there will be a growing number of women who are substantially wealthier than many men, just looking at distributions. That doesn’t mean that they don’t want men, or feel that the men need to subsidize them!
Men, there are many ways that you provide for women and make us happy that have nothing to do with consumer purchases. If women don’t mind, why would you?
It says far more about the men than it does the women. And since you can’t change men, as a woman, all you can do is a) realize that your target audience is men who are NOT intimidated by you, and to b) become self-aware about any off-putting behaviors that may unintentionally sabotage your success.
Well, this is how I see it. We fall for someone not so much based on what we think of them, but how they make us feel about ourselves. (Or would it be better for me to say how we find ourselves feeling about ourselves due to them.) It’s great that the woman is smart, pretty, and kind, but does she make ME feel uniquely smart and cool.
I am wondering if the guys that Niki has been seeing have any idea of what she likes about them. This actually is more important that someone like Niki, who has all this going for her, shows this kind of appreciation to the guys she is seeing, than it would be for a plainer woman to show that kind of appreciation to the guys she is seeing.
Why? Well the best way I can illustrate it is to point out that employers shy away from hiring what are known as “overqualified” candidates. It’s not so much about the employers being “insecure”, they just know that hiring someone overqualified might sound great in theory but, going by how similar-looking situations have worked out in the past, is actually a bad risk for them. The way the employer sees it, the overqualified candidate might not work as hard or she might leave when a more suitable position comes up. It’s just how these things tend to play out. So if the overqualified candidate really wants to be hired, has to work harder to show the potential employer that she really wants this job and why.
@Niki #5
Driving a Jaguar is not flaunting success?
Ever hear of the book “The Millionaire Next Door”? Their favorite cars were Corollas or Camry’s. LOL, maybe you can get that rich and get more dates by leaving the Jag at home? 🙂
No disrespect
Steve
In reply to #10 and #11
Helen: not all men are the same. Just like some women don’t care about money, some do. We are individuals.
Why should men change? If there was an article about something that made many women uncomfortable or feel unfeminine everyone would be supportive at least to the point of telling them “well that is what you are about, that is fine”.
Why not with men who don’t feel comfortable dating a woman who makes much much more than them?
All of us want to be “needed.” For men, as Michael said, smart, pretty, and kind is great, but unless a man feels “needed” it doesn’t go far. I am an attorney, I make a decent living and get to do stuff I really enjoy. But let me tell you, I am not driving a Jag (own a SUV that is a Hybrid), wearing my rolex, expensive accessories, or telling my potential date about my beach house, my speaking engagements or the daily battles at work. Instead, I lead with my hobbies, if he asks, volunteering, cooking, photography, and every month I take a small road trip in CA to run a 1/2 marathon. I have had a date think I am a paralegal for two dinners, just because I didn’t talk about my profession (I avoid it at all costs). On the other hand, I want to be provided for and protected–so my dating pool at my income and age is rather small (I am fairly young-don’t worry very optimistic too). And I can see that once they realize what I do, see my home, this gets complicated. “Google” doesn’t help! I have heard, “why do you like me,” and “so where would I fit into all this.” However, I think this has more to do with the men she is selecting and what she is leading with.
Michael17: I know you always tell it exactly how you see it, so thanks. This is helpful.
Steve: note that I never stated explicitly that it’s men who should change. I think society as a whole – both men and women – will be changing how we think about men, women, and money in the future, as the income disparity narrows. There are possible implications for many ways in which men and women interact. It is an interesting time.
Niki (OP): I think some of the points people here have raised (Michael17 and Still Looking) about making your special man feel special would be helpful for you. He wants to know he has the ability to provide you happiness and satisfaction in some way.
@ Steve #14: well I’ve dated single dads. Fifty years ago, there was no such thing, just as there was no such thing as a high-earning woman. Times change, and we have to adjust, otherwise we will end up eliminating a lot of good people for no valid reason.
Michael17 has some really great points in #12, IMO. They apply not just to Niki, but to any woman that has a lot going for her. Or man, for that matter.
One more thing — to the commenters that tell Niki not to “flaunt the Jag” — her letter actually says “I have first dates then second dates, then the guy sees my classic Jaguar and my luxury apartment and he thinks that I am out of his league.” So it looks like Niki isn’t necessarily flaunting anything, it’s just that, she cannot hide her apartment and her Jag forever. What’s she supposed to do — lie about it? tell him, “Oh no we can’t go to my place today, my six roommates are home!” Sooner or later, he’ll come by her apartment and see the Jag! What do you recommend?
public transit?
uber?
I’ve experienced the same thing driving my Audi A7. I conducted an experiment and kept the car hidden until date number 5. Audi was an instant emasculating machine – smile was gone from his face – and the rest of him followed. Haha
The Jag would make me pause, no doubt. Especially if I see it on a first date. I don’t think that pause is a sign of intimidation. It’s more that I’d wonder if I would be able to keep up financially in any way to what this woman is used to in terms of dating. This would especially be the case if I didn’t know her at all, and only had what was present to base any judgments on.
I really like Helen’s comments here (that might make a few laugh, given how contentious we were with each other on a recent thread.)
“Men, there are many ways that you provide for women and make us happy that have nothing to do with consumer purchases. If women don’t mind, why would you?” This has always been my approach to dating. Not being fixated on how much money either of us spends, and seeking women who are also not fixated on that, and who see that there are so many other ways to show you care.
The thing is, you don’t really know how someone operates until you spend some time with them. You can find people who makes little money but expect high class everything on dates, and you can find people who are well off, but are totally flexible about dating, money, and the rest.
So, maybe Niki just needs to figure out a few ways she can demonstrate that flexibility. To show guys she isn’t expecting that he break the bank to date her. And yes, I’d agree with the others that if you can leave the car home for awhile, do so.
Nathan,
I disagree; the only men Niki (or any other woman,) can “intimidate” that way, are the ones who need her to be less than she is, so they can feel like more than they are. That is their problem, NOT hers. A man totally secure and comfortable with who he is, and what he’s done, doesn’t need to do that, because he has nothing to “prove”. There ARE guys like that, usually pretty successful, and pretty much alpha in temperament; it takes a pretty strong personality to handle that kind of success, whether it’s your own, your partner’s or both.
First, alphas doesn’t require looks or wealth, they’re alphas people value their leadership. A priest can be an alpha, D.A. Second, you just pointed out that only a successful man would be able to handle her success-suggesting that a man must match her earning power. This is just dumb. She’s a lawyer, not a princess. The man just needs a job and be a good guy all around.
I’m not intimidated by high-earning women or men, beauty, or any other superficial nonsense. It’s usually women’s fear of judgement that keeps them from dating a poor man, or a short man, or any of the other crap I keep reading about.
Moreover, women just hate admitting to being like this because, again, the perception of others matters more than anything else. They’ll hide behind all kinds of excuses like “men are intimidated.”
I can tell you right now, if she’s using online dating, being a female lawyer is the kiss of death. There are so many above average height, entrepreneurial, or high-earner women online who for some reason think their accomplishments and stats matter at all to men, and keep shooting for the tallest, wealthiest, most educated dudes that are just swimming in 23-year-old women. Those men will NEVER choose a post-wall woman who is use to pampering herself with material things. They eventually settle down with a hot, struggling barista because he may finally want to leave legacy and she’d happily volunteer for the taste of the good life and the high potential for successful kids.
Lady, stop blaming men for not seeing what a catch you are, and just go live your life. Find some friends.
Btw, if all of your friends are married, you did it wrong.
I know how to “tone” it down, because I was guilt-tripped my whole life by relatives and others who felt bad because we had more. I was born into it and I was given nice things and a fine education. Am I supposed to turn these privileges down?
All my life people made an issue about my privileges. They shamed me. They asked countless questions. They kept harping about how fancy my dress, bags, shoes, etc. were. “I don’t know how you can afford that.” Even when I’m not wearing the nice things, they still find something to fixate on. “Is your dad rich?” “How much is your allowance?”
How to tone it down:
Not wear jewelry.
Not drive expensive cars.
Not mention about assets and properties until they grill me.
As soon as I mention I have that stuff, they get disappointed or they feel bad about themselves. I realized, it’s THEIR problem. They have issues.
As for dating – I figured I will only date people who aren’t intimidated and can hold their own or those who already own and enjoy the same things.
It sure limits the pool but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I used to “tone” it down and realized I wasn’t being myself, while the people who expected me to “tone” it down weren’t making concessions for me at all. I was dressing down (I love to dress up). I went to cheap restaurants for their sake. I sat around in parks and just chatted with them because some of them couldn’t even afford a cup of coffee. I would go to matinees instead of evening shows because they needed to save a couple of dollars. I would take a taxi and some people complained that I waste money. I was flexible and understanding and it didn’t necessarily get me the relationships I wanted.
But I’m not going to spend the rest of my life apologizing for my lifestyle. It’s what I prefer and I want to be with someone who can enjoy the same things. No BS, no guilt-tripping.
You know what? I’d be freaked out by a MAN with a jag, too! I would find it materialistic and off-putting; I’d wonder why the guy wasn’t spending money more wisely and question whether our values meshed. I’d wonder if he would try to buy my affection. I make plenty of money for a single person and grew up in a six figure household but we saved our money for a great college education and travel, not to throw around on a huge fancy house and fast cars.
There is nothing wrong with that lifestyle, it’s just difficult for me and probably many others to comprehend — because I’m not in the same class and league. It seems that there are often problems when trying to date above or below one’s league in looks, education, and social status. All this advice about finding some bald, nerdy nice guy to date doesn’t exactly work unless you are nerdy and average yourself. I rarely get pursued or asked for a second date by a guy less attractive, educated, and successful than me– and I think at the end of the day, a mechanic who grew up in a blue collar hood will want a similar woman because that’s who he’s COMFORTABLE with. Who he’s compatible with.
Maybe this woman should work harder to find men closer to her status, or who share her values — say, a guy who may not make a lot right now but is excited about starting his own business and can see himself caring about nice things.
@David 2 I think it could be many things and it is going to be different from man to man.
Sometimes it is an ego thing. Some men just don’t feel “manly” enough if she makes more. (Nikki’s 5’s public defender is an example. Also comparing a person to a ring is disturbing so it just as well he didn’t like the money situation.) That is silliness, IMO. In some men’s cases it might be a self-esteem “I can’t afford her” thing (Nathan 18), thinking “I won’t be able to keep up with her travel, fancy restaurants, etc. She won’t want me simply for who I am and be willing to help pay my way.” I think many men fall in here.
In other cases it can be a more fundamental problem of mismatch values. For context, a few years ago I dated a well off lawyer who made about 4 times my already fairly generous salary. It was a bonus that she was so well set financially. She lived in a nice but modest house and drove a mid-range SUV (just like Liz 15), but she could have afforded much more. We were gf/bf for a few months and parted amicably for reasons other than money.
Recently I briefly considered dating a nice woman (we went out once) who was independently wealthy. She had a few issues that made her unappealing to me, but the first deal breaker was what she drove, how she dressed, her manicure, her bling, etc. . My problem wasn’t that she happened to have enough money to own whatever caught her eye but that she put real value in having expensive things. That was clearly important to her.
Mia hit my number on the values (though I disagree about the class and league thing. If values match, it becomes a choice whether or not to feel comfortable.) No matter how much money I make, I will never own a Jag or Porsche or Ferrari or Maserati etc. because that is not what is important to me. If I had the extra money, I *might* go to the expense of having my shirts fitted so I look nice, but I am not going to spend $500 on a pair of jeans, or $800 on a shirt just because it has a fancy brand name that also happens to be high quality. That is a real turn off. Like Nikki 5 said, for me extra money means more for charity.
It is a choice and whatever floats your boat is fine. If I dated the OP, every time I saw that $200k 1966 Jag and sat on her $15,000 antique divan looking at her wall full of $22,000 Theodore Geisel prints, I would be thinking about what else could have been done with that money, and it Don’t Work For Me.
Having known quite a few professors, I could see how a man like that could not be all that compatible with Niki. They don’t make tons of money, they tend to be very involved in their intellectual pursuits, and relatively non-materialistic, as a general rule. I agree with Still-Looking (#1), that her best bet would be men with similar values, and a similar earning capacity.
I’m not arguing against what any of you – especially Evan – have written. But please consider this. I know several dozen women who’ve made it their life goal to marry men who will support them financially at a very high level and not a single one of these women were high earners or came from money, on their own. Every last one of them wore simple clothes pre-marriage and drove, at most, simple cars (in general, they didn’t even own cars). But this doesn’t mean they didn’t value sapphires, Jaguars or Chanel every bit as much as the women who turn up with Bling on the first date. The biggest difference is, the women who wear the Bling have already paid for it themselves… the others are just waiting for some guy to buy it for them.
Oh, and interestingly enough, the guys who marry poor women and provide them with expensive stuff end up feeling like The Big Man who saved the Little Girl. The guys who marry women who already can afford their own toys too often end up resentful and sullen.
nathan, our viewpoints have never been that different, ever.
At the risk of being pilloried, I will throw the idea out there that it is not such a terrible thing for a woman to want or own expensive things. (Of course, this comes from a woman who doesn’t own anything expensive, so what would I know…) It doesn’t necessarily make her shallow, morally bankrupt, or any other stereotype.
For example, David T, when you wrote: “If I dated the OP, every time I saw that $200k 1966 Jag and sat on her $15,000 antique divan looking at her wall full of $22,000 Theodore Geisel prints, I would be thinking about what else could have been done with that money, and it Don’t Work For Me.”
… first, I laughed at the Dr. Seuss innuendo. 😀 Second, I thought (and forgive me here, because I’ve enjoyed your comments on the whole): why would it be any of your concern how she spends her money? If she has plenty of disposable income, it may make more sense to spend it in those ways she prefers, rather than in an investment that doesn’t put money back into the economy. Also, would you judge a man in the same way if he had such expensive accoutrements?
Niki,
i’m afraid you bark at the wrong tree… perhaps, for men is the biggest turn-off is not what you own Jag and super condo – but the fact of showing off attitude, kind of? even if you do it half-conciously.
on the second date you showing the guy all visible and material attributes of your success. i don’t know for sure about the man in this situation, but if a guy would do the same to me, my impressions about him would be: 1. he’s all about show-off ; 2. if he shows me such things on the second date already, that means he’s mostly about all material stuff.
needless to say, both of these thoughts are HUGE turn-offs
I was going to say that the men were being silly until I read Liz’s post.
There are definitely a not insignificant number of high earning women who do want to marry a man who can keep them in the lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed.
And if a woman isn’t willing to either a) keep working or b)downgrade her tastes, then the male teacher probably does need to run the other way when the lady doctors and lawyers walk in.
It really does seem as if for a lot of high-achieving, high-earning women, being able to find a man who will support you in an expensive lifestyle AND let you stay at home is a big status symbol.
Ugh.
I am with Evan on this one. Dont hide your Jag or your condo. Any man that can not deal with it, is not the one for you. And how dare folk question her about how wisely she spends her money. That Jag may be a drop in the bucket in terms of her income. The reality is that there are 3 camps: 1) Those that little egos can not take a woman making much more then them 2) Those that will try to take and advantage of the situation and 3) Those that do not have a problem with it. Sad to say # 3 is in the minority but they are out there. Although the Lifetime channel migh make you think otherwise alot guys can not handle a woman making ALOT more than they do.
Nicole I don’t find myself “silly.” I think men are happiest as the provider in the relationship, and protecting the women their with. This by no means indicates I would rely on anyone to provide an “expensive lifestyle,” while I stay at home (although if educated, successful women are blessed to stay home with their children and that makes them happy–trust me, as a mother, its not a status symbol). But, I acknowledge that my career, income, and professional life is a lot to take on. Inevitably, they discover it, and sometimes it creates a strange dynamic. Oh and while everyone has to be realistic, and compromise, down grading isn’t a necessity either. Patience,is however a necessity. No one should run from those evil “women doctors or attorneys.” 🙂
Second car perhaps? Only if you considering that as an option. Not for men but for yourself. I got jetta TDI diesel I am driving around on weekdays. And some weekends to load my kayak and golf clubs. And on other weekends I drive my other car. I noticed the 42-50mpg is quite a conversation piece for a lot of men from OR, to ER to golf course. Best, Nic
@Helen 23
I would not pillory anyone for disagreeing, or for choosing to spend wealth differently than I would. 🙂
All I am saying is that points to a different set of values and perspectives than mine and I would not be interested in emotional intimacy with someone like that.
This is just one of three reasons I have seen in this thread that a man might choose to not date a woman who has and spends loads of money. The OP needs to find someone who matches her wealth or matches her value set and who isn’t hung up on the ego of having a higher salary and also is OK with having her help pay his way when they go to a 5 star restaurant every week.
I agree with Mia, that with that particular lifestyle (and I am extrapolating a *lot* when I assign a value set to the OP based on the few words “classic Jaguar” and “luxury apartment.” Apologies to the OP if I am off base) she is most likely to have luck with someone else with money.
@Sherel 26. I am not questioning anyone’s wisdom. I am talking about different world outlooks. This is not a wisdom issue.
I am dating a guy who has 38 store building as his corporate office in big city ,plus office in London and Paris.
But i meet this guy online three years ago and ended up becoming good friend as we interacted daily online and occasionally meet in real world as i travel sometime to his city, just for a cup of coffee and chat as we really liked each other.
All these three years i didnt know that he was super rich.He kept it simple.He never flashed his wealth on my face.
If i knew how rich he is on our first date i would have ran away too.
Seriously, most of the men in his position i have came across till date were sort of players,dominant,arrogant,self centered jakkas,not interested in marriage and kids etc. and this has become kind of stereotype for super rich men.Even Evan tells woman on his blog to not to chase alpha men ,doesn’t he?
Try online dating that might wok with you.Try to be simple on first few dates instead of taking fancy car for dates.Let people see your mind first before they see your wealth.This guy applied same strategy and it worked.I was freaked out big time after visiting his office first time but then i knew he as a person last three years so decided to stick with this relationship.
I completely disagree with idea that men who wonder about what driving a Jag means are a) guys with low self esteem or b) are automatically thinking the other person is superficial. It is perfectly reasonable to wonder about compatibility if you have vastly different incomes, but it doesn’t have to be a death sentence to a relationship. I don’t get the sense from Niki’s letter that she is obsessed with fancy this and that. She sounds like she wants more options, not less. In which case, why not make a few subtle shifts to de-emphasize possessions while on dates?
I was also amused by Niki’s statement, “I am not arrogant and sometimes try to play down my looks and the Jag. Men will say “Ooh, nice car” and I’ll say “Oh, it’s old.” Uh, many men understand that a “classic Jag” costs more than a lower-end new one. At the very least, they get that she isn’t driving just any old car, but an upper-class status symbol.
Despite her proclamations to the contrary, Niki’s conspicuous consumption is a way for her to let others know that she has superior wealth and social standing. Of course, the downside is that many people (men) can feel intimidated, inadequate, and excluded from her lavish lifestyle.
Gosh, let the poor woman be herself! This is the reason why celebrities usually date other celebrities. I’m afraid alot of men’s attitudes are still stuck in the ‘Leave it to Beaver’ era. As a fellow woman who appreciates & drives a nice car. It’s a new generation. How come a woman cannot appreciate nice classic cars, car appreciation shouldn’t be a ‘man only’ domain. I’m in a similar boat to Niki. Men do ask what could I provide for you? I tell them, emotional connection, loyalty, respect & a true & genuine love of who I am. I am finding the younger Generation Y men who often had mothers with successful careers & their own stuff aren’t put off if a woman materially has more. I do find out there in dating land that the older generation of men (especially the baby boomers) do have major security issues about it. Hey everyone it’s 2012, we have men who are sole parents & women who can support themselves. I would suggest that Nikki gives the younger men a go, they are way less judgemental.
It’s interesting because i was only thinking about something like this recently when i thought of Athina Onassis. i thought … now if i was as rich as athina onassis, and street wise, then how would i go about approaching finding a guy who was genuine about their intentions with me. and i also thought about women like jennifer aniston who seem to constantly fall for players. there are many women who are much less attractive or rich than these two women who manage to get sincere, loyal, stable guys.
i don’t see what i’m about to suggest as totally deceitful – it’s just being cautious given the circumstances. if i was athina or jennifer, i’d definitely avoid revealing my wealth/fame and try to find a normal, sincere, genuine guy who is into me for me, and who doesn’t have any significant wealth, fame, talent (i know that would be a bit hard if i were jennifer aniston but then i would pick countries to hang out where i’m not famous). like with niki, if she’s got so much money, why doesn’t she buy an extra average car and have another average apartment on the side (as well as her bling apartment) to use with potential suitors until she finds a guy who’s into her for her personality. she can drive the toyota camery and stay at her “normal” apartment when she’s got a suitor in tow. then when she catches her man, she can reveal how much money she’s got – after the guy is hooked. then she can sell the toyota and rent out the average apartment 🙂 evan discusses something in his book … he said that he didn’t find out about his wife’s large credit card bill until he was hooked on her, and by that time, he was “all in”.
I don’t know why, but I get the sense that Niki might be happier with a wealthier man, who was similarly high-flying. I don’t think she should have to hide her light under a bushel and downplay the fact that she is beautiful and has luxurious things. This is going to come out sooner or later.
I think some people are put a little off balance by these things and that is their right. I think it has to do with comfort level. And I think Niki might be more comfortable with someone who was comfortable in her lifestyle, so that she wouldn’t have to watch what she says for fear of how it comes across.
That said, it is rarely just “you earn too much, you’re too beautiful, you’re out of my league”. Sometimes people with privilege project an arrogance which is off-putting, and which they may not even be aware of. Even so, I think finding someone who *is* comfortable around you is easier than trying to change who you are.
Regarding the car, I don’t think it’s necessarily the fact that she has a classic car–it’s the fact that she has a classic luxury car.
A guy (at least this guy) wouldn’t be intimidated by a woman who had a classic muscle car, like a 1967 Mustang fastback. That is, if she let him take it for a spin every now and then. 😀
Value of classic cars, no matter whether muscle, or luxury, is extremely variable, dependent on condition. It’s conceivable that a particular classic Mustang could be much worth more than a particular classic Jag.
It’s the “luxury” part of the car that adds to the “she’s out of my league” factor, for many guys.
That said, I think some of posters on here have gone a little too far. I mean, why should anyone apologize for liking, being able to afford, and having the finer things in life? Good for Niki for having a luxury apartment and such a nice car!
Truth be told, many guys ARE insecure and you really don’t want to be dating them. Why should anyone feel the need to apologize for having a high-paying job or lots of money and what that can afford. If a guy makes you feel bad for having all that, then lose him. I mean, people feeling bad for success…that’s messed up.
Liz and Helen made a good point. Your partner needs to feel “needed” though, and it’s going to be somewhat harder for a woman to do if she has a lot of money–after she’s weeded out the insecure guys that is, which many are. In the end, no one wants to feel like “the heavy” in a relationship. We need to know that you like us and we need to have an idea why. We have to like what we bring to the table in the relationship.
How would you feel about dating a guy who was amazingly good-looking? As in, every time you went out and people were glancing over at the two of you, they were glancing at HIM. I mean, on the one hand, why should anyone have to apologize about being so good-looking. But on the other hand, how would that make you feel.
I’ll tell you a story from my own life. I briefly dated a woman who is a seriously proficient martial artist. She was also extremely intelligent. I actually thought that was awesome. What did us in was that she thought my chivalrous gestures were “silly”. I liked her and wanted it to work, but well, what did she need me for? We fizzled out.
No one needs to apologize for anything. It is different definitions of success. For me being successful is touching as many lives and helping as many people as possible whether that is through the kind of work I do, or taking home $1M a year and donating ~$800k of it to charities and individuals.
To someone else it might be earning $1M a year and donating $950k and to another it might be donating $10k or even zero. These are different world outlooks and different value systems. It seems several posters are misinterpreting my perspective because they equate personal wealth with a kind of success. That is a perfectly legitimate worldview, and so is mine.
Back to the discussion at hand, do you see how two people who are too far apart regarding what success means might have a hard time getting along if they co-mingle their lifestyles?
David T @ 38
You asked, “Back to the discussion at hand, do you see how two people who are too far apart regarding what success means might have a hard time getting along if they co-mingle their lifestyles?”
I can see various scenarios; some would work out rather well while others would be a match made in hell. For example, if my idea of success is to be a wealthy surgeon, own a McMansion, drive a Porsche, and have a stay at home wife then a woman who views success as being a stay at home mom, able to volunteer 20 hours a week to the homeless kitchen, etc. would be a good partner.
A match between a man who wants to donate 90% of his income and live simply would not work so well with a woman who views success as being a pampered princess who must have the largest house, the latest “must have” car, etc.
I guess it all comes down to whether it is a symbiotic relationship or one full of friction caused by competing values.
Some people will stereotype you / have a preconceived idea about you because you are rich, poor, mediocre, successful and so forth. Changing their minds is time consuming and is not worth the effort.
A man who truly values you will not care if you are rich or poor. He will care for who you are and what you bring into the relationship.
Michael 17, nice last post.
I understand Niki’s issue. My sister went through a similar issue in that becuae of her looks the only men that ever hit on her or asked her out were ‘players’. It took her years of bad dates and relationships to find a down to earth guy to fall in love with marry and have children with.
In line with this thinking, although well educated and successful, most guys like myself (over 40, balding, average build, etc…) would find it very hard to believe that a woman of Nikki’s beauty would have anything to do with them and would normally not even try. The money and professional success have nothing to do with it by the way.
Scott @41
Some men might not try to approach a beautiful woman because of a fear of rejection.
I do not hesitate to approach a beautiful woman if she appears low maintenance and down to earth. Unfortunately, many of them appear to be high maintenance so I don’t bother to waste my time.
Am I guilty of stereotyping based on looks and a very quick initial impression, whether online or in person? Yes. I also avoid women who have not worked outside the home for 20 years and have lived a pampered lifestyle. Might I be missing the woman of my dreams? Perhaps but we all make our initial assessments off of very limited data. Life is sometimes too short and time is too valuable to see if someone really doesn’t fit our stereotype.
@Still 39
Your mention of having a partner who takes the lead in raising good children into awesome adults and also volunteers got me thinking. If I am in a less than “making a difference” job than I would rather be in but am contributing money to a household and partner that makes a difference in the world, I helping make work that happen and I am contributing. Their work as a nurturing parent and volunteer is still *their* life and *their* career/volunteerism, but it contributes to my satisfaction with how my life is aligning with my values.
Taking a look at what the *combined* partnership will look like and how well the partnership supports my values is what matters (along with being satisfied when it is in the right direction but not perfect, or when the unexpected pulls us from our ideal plan.) This is important to remember.
But again, if you’re looking for marriage, it’s about shared VALUES. And attitudes about money, while not a bit deal in a mere relationship, are very important in a marriage. So maybe a guy who is only earning $100,000 – which is a lot, but isn’t much in a big east coast city – and marrying you – let’s say you’re making at least five times that – just wouldn’t be comfortable blowing money on vacation homes, nannies, housekeepers, etc., even if on your combined incomes you could afford it. Maybe, with the economy being as bad as it is, he has the good sense to recognize that you don’t just blow your money because times are good – you could lose your job or clients at any time.
If you were wealthy but spent your money wisely (I mean, saved and invested) and weren’t throwing it around – of course you’re entitled to do so if you think it’s best – most guys would be cool with it. But you’re materialistic, so expect a materialistic guy. But, oh wait, why would a materialistic wealty man want a 37 year old woman who probably told kind, commitment oriented men for years, “I don’t want a relationship right now” as she clawed her way up the career ladder when he could have a younger, hotter woman (no offense, but few 37 year olds are that beautiful compared to the kind of women their 37 year old male counterparts could get) who isn’t as threatening? I know this seems harsh, but I’d say something similar to a man – it’s like when men are materialistic and wealthy, and are shocked when shallow women flock to them with their hands out.
Obviously you can find love no matter what – all sorts of people do – but just trying to point out the limitations of your situation. Perhaps, like a lot of us, you should be more honest with yourself about who you are and what you really want.
Michael hit it the basic point. “HOW DOES SHE MAKE HIM FEEL?”.
I doubt its the material possessions that is the issue. The issue is something within herself. Most women who have all of that, (I used to be one) have LARGE EGOS, and constantly in masculine mode.
A man wants to be a man. A man wants to be respected. She needs a man at the same level or she needs to make the man feel good. I can almost bet that she is “chasing” the man too. Or maybe “controlling”. Or even “insecure”. ALOT of insecure people NEED labels to FEEL superior or SECURE.
I always skip the women’s comments on here because I need a mans advice. I want a man, not a woman.
Ladies, if your on here, you probably do too. Listen, pay attention.
THE MEN LEAVE A WEALTH OF INFORMATION ON HERE FOR YOU TO LEARN AND APPLY.
And the women that are saying ” Let her be herself. let her do this and that.” Welp! Thats exactly why she is still single with HER LABELS and expensive car.
Ladies, we have to change OURSELVES. Be quiet sometimes and LISTEN. You might get your man if you do. 🙂
No disrespect intended.
Have you ever been to a bar, club or party and watched two different women?
1. The one with the expensive clothes , shoes etc, usually standing or sitting down with her drink NOT smiling, snarling her nose up at every body and being anti-social. Probably whispering talking about or down on another girl? You know, the “mean girl”.
Then:
2. The “fun” girl who may have on a simple outfit still sexy not showing too much, but you can still see curves. She may even have on flats that night, who knows. she is dancing, SMILING, laughing talking to everyone. Even strangers. Just living having a good time.
Who do you think is the man magnet? #2 is.
I have been both.
#1 comes home miserable.
#2 comes home not remembering the name of all the men she gave her number to.
#2 is a MAN MAGNET. Because she EXUDES confides , her energy is FREE and she is having fun.
Be yourself. We ALL LOVE NICE THINGS, -Its your attitude that makes you beautiful.
I have encountered insecure men who worry that if you drive a nicer car than theirs, or earn more money, they have nothing to offer. Really it is a reflection of their low self esteem. I would have to say I don’t drive a Jag (SUBARU-LIberty instead) and only earn $80K, yet still guys can get stressed!
I really think whatever you do, you cannot win. I wear some nice designer clothes but I buy them on sale, drastically reduced and I do not have very many. It is investment dressing as they are classics and I expect to wear them for a few years.
I can’t say I spend money on manicures ( it is not my thing, but one blogger here was saying women who had manicures were high maintenance!!). Women are just trying to do what they can to attract a guy. We know it, at first, is all about how we look, so we are trying to look good.
Years ago, I didn’t worry about jewellery, clothes, much makeup , I thought guys would like me for me, as I was. it doesn’t work that way, you have to spend time and money on marketing yourself and then some perceive you as ” high maintenance!!). Women you cannot win
Catherine 47: I’m pretty sure most men can’t tell whether you’re wearing designer clothes. I think men care more that the clothes are figure-flattering than how expensive they are.
But your point about men assuming women are “high maintenance” is right on. Depending on how that assumption was made, it may not be fair at all.
How do men assume a woman is high-maintenance without knowing her well? Is it clothes? Makeup? A Jag like our OP has? And why is high maintenance something to avoid in the first place? It doesn’t have to involve the man.
Here’s a thought Nikki, think about exactly the kind of man you want to attract – the details like how he might dress, carry himself, do in his spare time, behave, react, etc and, be like that yourself ! No kidding. People are always attracted to like (and while opposites can attract, they usually do so for pathological reasons) which is why body language experts always ask you to “copy” or “mirror” people whom you want to influence and win over, like clients or customers. While you have no trouble attracting men for first or second dates, the “clash” in your styles inevitably signal the end of anything long term. Some men may admit to being intimidated. Others won’t understand why they just didn’t “jell” with you – they can’t explain why to you or to themselves, except that it just didn’t “work”. Sure you see rich men going out with poor women all the time, but these aren’t relationships – they are business transactions – and for those men who want their relationships to be like business transactions, they are going to be the ones who get to call the shots.
There’s been a lot of good points made in this thread especially by Michael17 and Maria. I can only speak for myself as a normal 75kish a year guy with a couple of Chevy’s…lol
The most important thing for me(and many men) is being comfortable with whoever we’re dating. I can honestly say in all my years of dating (and I would venture to say many of my peers as well) these aren’t the types of women we’d ever run across in our real everyday lives for the most part so it would be a non-issue. When I’m perusing profiles online I look for a woman who I THINK by her profile that I would be comfortable with in my everyday life not just attracted to. So I don’t email the few women that play up their looks with 21 model type photo’s from luxurious vacations, their 3 degrees, what they have, where around the world they’ve been(are going), and the 3 businesses they own that make them “very busy” etc…. they have no value to me because “I” wouldn’t be comfortable with them. Evan is right I’m not the guy for them and neither is 99.99% of all the single men. That doesn’t mean the right guy for Niki isn’t out there he’s just a lot harder to find.
I have to side with Catherine on this one, it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I have a few designer dresses too, although they’re often at a steep discount. I also get my hair and makeup done at the salon for dates–again, often at discounts (I’ve gotten friendly with the stylists there and they’re often willing to do it for me at lower rates since I come in frequently). As I get older into my 30s, it will just take me more effort and “maintenance” to try to look attractive. Yes, some men have taken one look at my salon styles and assumed I’m “high maintenance”. Yet if I just let myself go to be “low maintenance”, those same men wouldn’t find me attractive enough to get to know. Men want women to be beautiful, but how do they expect us to be that without the effort it takes to actually get there? I know very few women who can just roll out of bed looking terrific without some “maintenance” work (look at even those celebrities without makeup–even they aren’t naturally like that). There’s just no way to be all things to all people.
Thanks Christine 51. I’ve been very low maintenance and that sure hasn’t worked me either. No manicures, no pedicures, minimal makeup, average cars until relatively recently.
really as I look back at my life I would say to women:
DO NOT BE YOURSELF
BE WHATEVER THE GUY WANTS YOU TO BE
Just find out what he wants and deliver it:
and find out what the average guy wants so you appeal to as many as possible.
My hair was always fairly short for years as I rode horses and I hated helmut hair (BIG MISTAKE)
I have small breasts (SHOULD HAVE GOT PADDED< PUSH BRAS or had BREAST AUGEMENTATION)
My nose is on the big side (RHINOPLASTY WAS AN OPTION
I dont have cheekbones ( SHOULD HAVE HAD CHEEK IMPLANTS)
I am a tomboy and wore trendy man style clothes, collared shirts, vests and jeans (SHOULD HAVE WORN frills, pink, tight, figure hugging clothes)
Iam pear shaped ( SHOULD HAVE HAD LIPO ON BUTT AND THIGHS)
For women seeking men AT FIRST, too hook the guy, its all about how you look , Spend every last cent you have on clothes, makeup and plastic surgery to look like a Barbie Doll. You can’t afford a Jag or a property when there’s so much cosmetci surgery to be done.
There seem to be several recurring sentiments which can cause men to avoid women like Niki (and would cause many others to be cautious).
“Needed” vs. “wanted”
Neither my fiancée nor I earn anywhere what Niki does. However, neither one of us needs the other. Collectively, we’ve spent over 40 years being single. We can happily live without the other one.
We want to be together, and that gives us confidence in our relationship. We don’t need to be “needed” in order to feel secure in what we have. (People who “need” me creep me out.) That’s a crucial difference between men who will be intimidated by women who earn more, and men who won’t.
A woman that I can’t afford
I’ve met women (including homemakers) who had expensive tastes that I couldn’t afford to pay for. If they could afford to pay for their own luxuries, that was fine. If they expected me to provide those luxuries for them, it wasn’t going to happen. In one case the woman didn’t expect the man to pay for her own fashion, but she wasn’t interested in men who didn’t dress themselves in expensive clothes/accessories. Again, that’s a relationship I can’t afford.
Men see high-maintenance as a concern if we have to do a share of the maintaining. Among the men I interact with, “high-maintenance” only refers to the maintaining we have to do. The amount of maintaining that falls on you is a non-issue.
My fiancée and I worked out our finances (going forward) this past weekend. The system we agreed upon would work for me regardless of whether I’m the primary breadwinner or my partner is.
Money and shared values
If you’re someone who gives a lot of money to charity, it’s easy to look at someone’s expensive car/home/jewelry and think that the money could be better spent helping others.
That’s a very limiting attitude. If you give that heavily, it will be rare to find someone who is similarly generous (regardless of whether they outearn you). You need to find someone who accepts that you regularly give that much away. Just like you need to accept that they don’t necessarily do the same.
In my opinion, if you want to be happy about your giving, you can’t allow yourself to feel guilty about treating yourself well with the portion you keep. I heard of a man who gives 90% of his net income to charity. He lives in a nice house, drives nice cars, goes on nice vacations … all with the remaining 10%.
Intimidation
I have several friends who talked about dating women whom they thought were out of their league. I’ve been in that position myself. Each one of us decided to date her anyway and enjoy the relationship.
If a woman clearly is interested in us, “Why” becomes a lot less important.
Adding it up
There are men who would comfortably date someone like Niki (and have done so). It’s possible that she hasn’t met those men yet. It’s also possible that men are bailing for another unknown reason (and she’s incorrectly identifying the issue).
Catherine, your post cracked me up. I am tall, thin, have long straight hair, don’t have a big nose, and wear feminine clothes, yet I can’t get a guy to have more than a superficial interest in me. And I know dumpy girls with masculine clothes and big noses who find love just fine. I’m doing something wrong , and you’re doing something wrong – in terms of being strategic about how we find men who would care about us – but looks are not it, I suspect.
Karl stated, “Men see high-maintenance as a concern if we have to do a share of the maintaining. Among the men I interact with, “high-maintenance”only refers to the maintaining we have to do. The amount of maintaining that falls on you is a non-issue.”
I couldn’t agree more. If I date a physician who has a maid, eats out 7 nights a week, has a “spa day” every Saturday morning, and drives a $100k car I don’t view her as high maintenance b/c she is maintaining her lifestyle herself.
On the other hand, I met a woman who was separated, had a child in high school, and worked 2 days a week – she had a maid b/c she didn’t like to clean, she never cooked but either went out for dinner or ordered meals to-go from gourmet restaurants 7 nights a week, and filled her days with shopping and lessons at the club. Her husband had been paying the bills for her demands and desires for years. It didn’t take long for me to realize she wasn’t about to give up the lifestyle she had grown accustomed to and was searching for a man to maintain her lifestyle. Needless to say, I disappeared rather quickly!
@Karl 53
Thank you for the insight. It isn’t about a percentage btw; I always believe in taking care of myself and my family (son) and helping friends. So if I was taking home $40k/year, you can bet I am not donating 80%! On the other hand, if I was taking home $2M, I could live as plush a lifestyle as I would want and take care of my son for $200k spendable, about twice what I have now. Your bottom line however is correct. We all have traits we would like a partner to have. It is impossible to find someone with all of them, and it is likely impossible to accept someone who has none of them. It is more about acceptance of someone for who they are. which segues well into:
@Catherine 52
DO NOT BE YOURSELF. BE WHATEVER THE GUY WANTS YOU TO BE. Just find out what he wants and deliver it
Wow. What a recipe for long term disaster. You won’t be happy being something other and you can’t sustain that in the long term. When you transform into your true self, if you still know what that is after months or years of being a chameleon, even someone who still accepts you for who you are is finding themselves with a stranger suddenly and is going to wonder about your honesty. Given Mia 54s observations, perhaps something else is at play. . .
I like successful women, you can drive me around in your Jag and take me out to expensive dinners to wine and dine me! I prefer a successful woman they are less needy, well balanced and seem to know how to enjoy themselves a lot more – plus I dont have to do all the work because they are usually secure enough to take initiative themselves when they want something!
Karl53, thanks for that input. It’s given me some food for thought. Now I’m wondering if some men somehow just assume (without actually asking) that I expect them to do any of the maintenance? I can honestly say I don’t expect that. I don’t expect any man to pay for my Lexus, designer clothes and/or salon trips. I work to earn the money for that myself. I don’t know why men should mind what I do with my own money when I’m not taking away any of theirs. I also don’t expect men to dress fancy or spend a ton on themselves either. If a man happens to like doing that sort of thing that’s fine, but I don’t necessarily impose such requirements on them either. I’ve only dated two “high maintenance” men. The rest of the men I’ve dated were “regular” guys and most of them actually made less money than me.
I have these things to try to make the most out of certain aspects of my life. I chose my Lexus because it had the best GPS system I could find–and I have a terrible sense of direction and REALLY need the help. Not to mention, I have a substantial commute to and from work. I wanted a nice, smooth car to make that commute bearable, as I spend a lot of time in my car. I do my own “maintenance” now and then to try to improve my chances with men. The sad fact is, as much as character should be the most important thing, women are judged by their appearance first. No, it might not be enough to actually keep a woman in a relationship, but without it, she often won’t even get in through the door to begin with (it’s like trying to get a job by leading off with a poor resume). I’m just trying to improve my chances, after years of being “low maintenance” (no-makeup look and casual clothing) led nowhere. Don’t hate the players, hate the game! 🙂 I would love to be “low maintenance”, because these fancy designer duds and salon styles can get expensive (and in the salon trips, time-consuming). In fact, one of the nicest memories I have is of the one guy who told me I didn’t need make-up because I’m beautiful just as I am. However, those men have been too few and far in between for me to bank on that. To improve my odds and appeal to a wider variety of men, I think I need my make-up and fancy salon styles. Yes, I realize that comes with the risk of the “high maintenance” label, but the “low maintenance” alternative was no better for me (and, in many ways, worse).
I don’t think being “high maintenance” necessarily reflects on character either. No, I’m not Mother Theresa and yes, I do like treating myself to some of the finer things in life. However, I can honestly say I’ve also given substantial amounts of time and money to various charities too (for breast cancer research, Make a Wish, etc.). I don’t think being “high maintenance” and a decent person are mutually exclusive.
Catherine 52, it doesn’t hurt to look your best with things like clothes and make-up. I’m not sure if I’d go so far as surgery though–what if something goes wrong and you’re stuck looking awful? At least you can take off clothes and wipe off make-up that don’t work. Surgery isn’t so easily reversible. It can also be dangerous, since all surgeries have a risk of infection. I’m a curvy “pear shape” myself, but I don’t think that’s hindered me, to the point of needing lipo (I think what held me back before was more my lack of style). I’m pretty small on top but have wide hips. However, I actually get more attention now as a pear-shaped size 4 than I did back in my waifish days as a size 0. It’s true that men like meat on the bones.
Offtopic, I’d probably be terrified out of my mind if my partner insisted on giving 80% of our income to charity, spending 20%, and saving 0%.
@ David T #56, I think Catherine #52 is pulling our leg. No way can that post be serious. In the unlikely case that it is, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster. Being with a man who wants you to apologize for what you are and pretend to be something you’re not, is way too much work. Not worth it. Not healthy for the woman, either! I’ve dated guys like that, and I’m glad things didn’t work out with any of them. Life is too short to spend it beating yourself up because you’re not meeting some random man’s requirements.
Christine said: (#58)
“The sad fact is, as much as character should be the most important thing, women are judged by their appearance first.”
People are judged by their appearance first. It takes you seconds to see what I look like. It takes you days or weeks to accurately guage my character.
Mannerisms are even more important than physical appearance for first impressions. Making eye contact and smiling makes you seem friendly and approachable, for example.
Eventually your character will show through. If someone is in a social circle with you, the inaccurate first impression will eventually be replaced.
Christine asked: (#58)
“Now I’m wondering if some men somehow just assume (without actually asking) that I expect them to do any of the maintenance?”
Of course. What questions would we ask a woman we’ve barely met in order to find this out?
Or to turn it around, what questions would you ask a man to find out to find out whether a man is dependable in a crisis, or whether he’s going to stress out and vanish? There aren’t any (non-offensive) questions that you can ask. Even if you do ask, people won’t necessarily give you an accurate answer.
People look at small details, then try to extrapolate to see the bigger picture.
Christine said: (#58)
“I don’t think being ‘high maintenance’ necessarily reflects on character either.”
I have a couple friends who I consider to be high-maintenance women. They’re nice people and I enjoy their company. I just wouldn’t want to be their boyfriend.
Catherine said: (#52)
“Spend every last cent you have on clothes, makeup and plastic surgery to look like a Barbie Doll.”
Yuck.
I’d rather date a woman (and I have dated women) who is pear-shaped, small breasted, short haired, with a largish nose and no makeup. (“No cheekbones” is anatomically impossible unless you’re physically deformed.) You don’t have to wear frilly pink clothes, but I strongly recommend clothes which fit correctly. If your men’s clothes make you look like a man, you’re going to be about as sexually appealing as a man.
I don’t know if you get Marie Claire (my fiancée does). This month there’s an article by a woman who lost 40 pounds … and discovered that she was now a smaller woman with all the same problems and insecurities that she had before losing the weight.
The Misconception About “High-Maintenance”
Almost everyone here is discussing this in terms of money. That’s not the only type of maintenance.
Children are high-maintenance. They require money, time, attention and energy. If someone requires a lot of any of these (relative to other men/women), he or she is high maintenance.
Example:
A girlfriend and I were walking out of the bedroom one morning. As she left the room (a few steps ahead of me) she turned off the light. She then stopped and apologized for turning off the light on me. I couldn’t understand why she would apologize for that. (I was leaving the room too, and it wasn’t that dark.) But her previous boyfriend (who was somewhat neurotic) had gotten upset over things like that. He considered it rude.
If someone has to learn and follow a set of rules to avoid upsetting you on a regular basis, that’s high-maintenance, even though money isn’t involved.
Karl R wrote: “there’s an article by a woman who lost 40 pounds … and discovered that she was now a smaller woman with all the same problems and insecurities that she had before losing the weight.”
That shouldn’t come as a surprise. You may not notice as a man, but women are constantly bombarded by messages from society that what we are is never enough. “Be this.” “Do that.” “Don’t be this.” “Don’t do that.” I’m not blaming men for this; both genders participate in bombing women with messages about how we should improve. For every message that men want women to be beautiful (consider Stacey’s comments in another thread about how she could only get a man of her “caliber” after undergoing 4 elective surgeries and training for several marathons a year!), there’s a counteracting message that we should just “look natural” (but it seems that there are very specific ideas about what that entails). Some messages urge us to be domestic; others to be career go-getters. A few years ago, two studies came out within a week of each other – one saying that men went for women with higher waist-to-hip ratios because they were smarter and would bear smarter children; and the other saying that men didn’t like smarter women in a survey study.
This is all ridiculous.
What I wish for all women is that we could tune out these awful media and take some time to discover what we really love as HUMANS (not necessarily as women). Then gather up the courage to pursue those things. That way we will be guaranteed a portion of happiness regardless of whether we’re appropriately enticing to anyone else.
Then what’s stopping you, Helen? Men get messages from society/media too. They’re not all positive; some are contradictory. They’re just messages; they aren’t law or holy writ, and you don’t have to listen, or follow them…unless you want to. You sound intelligent enough to think for yourself, so just try that. Be who you want to be and can be, not who anyone else thinks you should be. Do that much and you’ll be ahead of all those trying so hard to fulfill so many contradictory images of perfection, that they don’t even know who they really are.
I’d say men don’t notice or don’t care about nails, straightened or manufactured looking hair, or how trendy/expensive clothing is or how many brand labels are on someone, or LOTS of make up. But they do appreciate a flattering and healthy feminine look.
This REALLY doesn’t need to cost a lot. Good and effective maintenance isn’t high maintenance.
Think European chic. Natural make-up – basically just enough products so your skin is good and your eyes OR lips are emphasised. Flattering hairstyle (which does NOT have to be overdone, just healthy looking and fits your face – I cut my own and I do fine, even though I tend to date men in relatively conservative professions who move in similar circles. Low maintenance doesn’t equals hippy).
Clothing – nothing too trendy or “weird” looking, unless you’re trying to appeal to a particular subculture. I find quality men seem to like classic, figure flattering styles over anything too outlandish that’s straight from the pages of a fashion mag.
Good taste and a sense of “this flatters ME” is worth a lot more than just picking out the most expensive outfit in the store. Might not be a good idea to go on first dates in a fleece and jeans, but this doesn’t mean you have to spend thousands on a brand new outfit and a salon session. I take care of my appearance on a day to day level, and own and wear clothes that I like the look of myself in (which you SHOULD be doing anyway even if you aren’t actively dating – have some pride ;-)) so I don’t really need any special extra expenditure for dates.
(Personally, I’ve found well fitting jeans and a plain top, or a dress that isn’t too “clubwear” or too “granny/vintage” style goes down VERY well).
Keep your weight in check – you don’t need to pay X amount for a gym, just eat less and walk and run. Get some yoga practices off the Internet to improve your posture. Drink water and eat oily fish for your skin (no smoking or excess drinking) and get early nights 4-5 days a week.
Cost = zero (ish). Impact on men attracted = excellent.
I think there is an in between step in between “I NEED TO SPEND THOUSANDS ON COSMETIC SURGERY AND DESIGNER CLOTHES” and “I’M NOT GOING TO PAY ANY ATTENTION TO MY APPEARANCE AND RANT AT MEN FOR BEING SHALLOW”. It’s not so hard to find.
KTR,
You knocked that one out of the park! Three cheers for you! The rest of you ladies take note; THIS is the attitude we men want from you!
I read the comments and I think Evan is more accurate in his assessment of the situation and what needs to be done. It’s not about leaving the Jag at home or changing things about yourself so men become “less intimidated”. If you have to pretend you’re someone different then you are to satisfy the person you’re with you’re not with the right person. I can only use myself as an example. My wife is 16 years younger than me, is extremely attractive and very successful. When we first met I thought it was very exciting that wherever we went all eyes would be on her. I loved the fact that all the men flirted with her and wanted to be with her. Her attractiveness and power were attributes that made me feel good about myself rather than threatened. Yes, she could have any man she wanted, especially younger and more successful ones than me. She know it and I love the fact that it was me she chose to spend her life with. But she also never did anything to create any doubt or insecurity within me. So as where Evan is on target with his “wrong men” assessment, he also is right one with his advice of analyzing any behavior on your part that might be creating any issues.
As a lady doctor, I am constantly taken aback by the reactions of men on dates when they ask me what I do. I would expect at the very least a polite comment like “That must be interesting” but instead I often get a brief silence followed by a muttered “Oh.” Up till that point (and it is surprising how far you can get through a date before a man bothers to ask you about your job) things have been fun and chatty, then I just get this “Oh.” According to some sources of dating advice, men are drawn to women in the caring professions, but it seems doctors don’t count! I always end up feeling things would have gone better if I’d said I was a nurse. Or preferably a children’s nursery nurse. The pojnt i’m making is its not the trappings of success that put men off (until they discover what I do, they seem fine with my clothes, shoes and nice haircut) – its the success ITSELF that they don’t like. And there’s not a lot you can do about THAT.
Interestingly enough, I met a guy on holiday in Greece last week who works on a farm. Now that we’re home, he is eagerly trying to organise to come and visit me to continue the relationship, even though he lives hundreds of miles away. He doesn’t seem fazed at all by my job, which is so refreshing. I can’t say I’m holing out a great deal of hope that what started out as a holiday hook-up will blossom into anything, but hey! at least I dodn’t get the “Oh.”
Helen said: (#62)
“women are constantly bombarded by messages from society that what we are is never enough.”
Is your education “enough”? Have you learned everything you’ll ever need to know? Have you learned everything worth knowing? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime? Is this something where the journey is important, because the destination is unreachable.
Are you good “enough”? Are you as ethical / moral / just / kind / compassionate as you ought to be? As you’re ever going to become? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime?
I don’t know about you, but I’ve been getting messages from my parents, my teachers, my church, great literature, my friends and socieity about those two topics from before the time I could understand the meaning of the words. Somehow, I’ve managed to lead a happy, healthy, balanced life while still pursuing those unattainable goals.
I’ve noticed that women can manage this concept when it comes to the important things. Why should it be unmanageable when it’s a more superficial subject?
KTR, (#63)
I think you’ve nailed it.
Well, I’m 60. I’m physically fit, tall by local standards and have my own business which is doing OK but not making what I might have been making. She is 36, good looking, stylishly dressed with her own business and probably a higher net worth than me. No way would I have chased her. We happened to be thrown together. However, I am not altogether sure that she is out of my league intellectually, emotionally or spiritually. Once you are through the “Wow factor” barrier these matter more. After 6 weeks together it’s not looks (or age) that you see most in another person. They matter but not so much. It’s character. How do you signal your character? How do you signal your character to people you want to attract? How do you define the people you want to attract? Are they likely to be interested in your signals? Selfish jerk is a good signal for a man to give a woman. It is not a good signal for a woman to give a man.
Goldie 59 I am glad to see someone can tell I was at 52 (Catherine) pulling peoples leg.
hello MIA 54
“”Catherine, your post cracked me up. I am tall, thin, have long straight hair, don’t have a big nose, and wear feminine clothes, yet I can’t get a guy to have more than a superficial interest in me. And I know dumpy girls with masculine clothes and big noses who find love just fine. I’m doing something wrong , and you’re doing something wrong — in terms of being strategic about how we find men who would care about us — but looks are not it, I suspect.””
Mia I have plenty of platonic males friends who tell me I am funny ,smart and charming and a woman they could take home to meet their mother, but as one of my male friends said “”IF i look at a woman and don’t think I want to do her, I won’t ask her out”. First appearances are everything.
I read that same Marie Claire story. I used to be thin back in my 20s (size 0). Once I got into my 30s I suddenly gained a ton of weight. However, I didn’t have a perfect life back when I was thin, and didn’t suddenly have a terrible one when I got bigger. There are times when I wish I could go back to my size 0 days. However, then I realize that my quality of life has been essentially the same at all sizes, with the same sets of triumphs and problems. I don’t know that being a waif again would miraculously make life perfect, when it didn’t before.
KTR, I think you hit the nail on the head to strike a happy medium between being slovenly and obsessive about appearance. I do what I can with cosmetics and clothes, but am always surprised when I get men who find that “high maintenance”.
@Helene 65
Yep men ARE drawn to women in caring professions I’ve dated nurses as well as a nurse practioner or 2. While I’ve never even met an actual MD to get the chance to say anything. I know that she would probably ask me “what do you do” first just like women online qualify men every day with this question. Then when I tell them oddly enough she would probably say what a lot of women say to me online after the 3rd email “Oh, that sounds interesting” and I never hear from them again. There are some women that put right in their profile that they’re a “doctor” and for the most part I don’t email them because I’m pretty sure I’M not what she’s looking for. Most (not all) female MD’s aren’t going to be interested in average men that don’t have a high status/high value job. They can only be attracted to their equal or above whatever that means to them. Attorney, Financial Advisor, _______ fill in the blank with any highly educated job title etc…… “Farm hand” isn’t going to make it in my neighborhood for even a secretary…..LOL
Double standard. Many men have no problem flaunting their successes. It’s expected and they do it because they think it makes them more attractive and it’s a sign of their worth. I’ve had dates apologize for driving their beater when their nice car was in the shop. Imagine if I did that. I would be then “flaunting”. Flaunting your well-deserved successes is ok for men, but not for women?
Women are attracted to “successful” men, but successful women are intimidating to men? I find no reason for men or women to hide their successes because it is just a part of who they are. Successful women are no less caring, nurturing, fun or feminine then women who don’t make a lot of money. And why the heck does it even matter? Rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight…who cares? It’s the qualities that we want in a partner that matter. It doesn’t make them a better partner, but it shouldn’t exclude a man or woman from being considered nor should it be a barrier to getting to know each other further. We do ourselves a disservice by even noticing what car or career a date has. I’ve dated both highly successful men and unemployed men and those factors had nothing to do with whether they were a good match for me or not.
Men should be able to look at women like they look at their successful male friends and say to women, “dude (dudedess), great car!”
@JB
Thanks for your comments – it is interesting to hear that “average guys” wouldn’t bother pursuing a female MD as they’d assume she would be looking for an attorney etc… when as has frequently been pointed out by Evan and others, the “attorneys etc…” of my age (47) are all looking for hot young 30 year olds. This leaves the likes of me with….what??! The retired gentlemen, apparently.
The farm guy, actually, is quite a confident, masculine type, which is positive – also well educated, having gone to a private school – I went to an ordinary school myself. He has now gone ahead and booked a flight (after consulting with me) to visit me in my city in a couple of weeks time, which according to Evan’s “pay attention how quickly they follow up” philosophy is a good sign – so I’m trying to be open to this (rather unusual) possibility as it IS very nice to be pursued by a man who is NOT intimidated by me or my profession – as well as being very hot in bed (am I allowed to say that on the blog??!)
Karl R #66
“Is your education “enough”? Have you learned everything you’ll ever need to know? Have you learned everything worth knowing? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime? Is this something where the journey is important, because the destination is unreachable.
Are you good “enough”? Are you as ethical / moral / just / kind / compassionate as you ought to be? As you’re ever going to become? Or is this something that you’ll strive for over a lifetime?”
Well, women get THESE messages also, on top of the messages that reinforce the fact that they are not thin enough, not pretty enough, too old, etc. It’s mostly women doing the extreme dieting, getting the plastic surgery, buying cosmetics, and so on. The above examples aren’t negative things to strive for, either, as they have a positive effect and are reasonable goals. But messages that tell women that they need to measure up to an unattainable ideal of feminine beauty negatively affect a woman’s self-esteem. Men don’t get the same messages about their physical appearance, and they are not held to the same unrealistic standard.
Catherine — no man will go out with a girl he doesn’t want to do. But, how would you feel if you were like me and some of my friends, a size 2, feminine looking, young, and often told you’re gorgeous, but …. Men have a hard time seeing you as more than the exotic flavor of the week ? Being half white and half Asian and never really sure if you’re with a guy who has an exotic fetish when really he’s gonna end up with the plain, generic w hite girl next door like so many men do? one of my closest friends is drop dead gorgeous, 27, tan and long haired and she gets played right and left. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve sat at the bar bemoaning why we keep getting played while so many frumpy girls are out having a ball. I have no sympathy for unattractive women, bc they get played a lot less and seem to find love more easily bc the 1 or 2 men who like them, do so for their personalities.
Hi, Nikki.
You’re smart enough to figure this one out for yourself.
As for the handsome professor with the great heart, here’s some advice to him from that notable expert on Internet dating, the late actor-comedian Jackie Gleason (according to the Thought For Today in the Torrance Daily Breeze newspaper): “If you have it and you know you have it, then you have it. If you have it and don’t know you have it, you don’t have it. If you don’t have it but you think you have it, then you have it.”
Chris72, well said–I don’t get where this idea comes from, that well compensated professional women must somehow be less nurturing, feminine and fun than anyone else.
Mia74–well, actually I think average and/or homely women get “played” about as often as the “hot” ones, at least from what I’ve seen. I have also been through that experience more than I can count, but am an average female. I’m a plus sized 4, 33 year old Asian woman–somewhere in between gorgeous and hideous on the attractiveness scale. For those types of guys an Asian woman doesn’t necessarily have to be drop dead gorgeous for him to see her as a “fetish” or “exotic” flavor of the week–just Asian! I’m not sure the less-beautiful women of the world have some immunity against getting “played”. At the same time, they also are disadvantaged in not getting the amount of attention as their more beautiful counterparts. The hot young 20-somethings will get opportunities I can only dream of. Sorry but I have a hard time crying for young gorgeous women!
Helene, I know what you mean. I have found a lot of doctors and lawyers have this attitude of entitlement, where they want hot young things. A lot of times they’ve rejected me for younger women (and the sad thing is, I’m not even THAT old, but they see me as an old crone as they chase the 20-somethings). I am actually getting fed up with them and wouldn’t mind a so-called “average” guy if he treats me right. Hey, does “farm guy” have a brother? 🙂
HI Mia (75), I think 1/2 asian, 1/2 caucasian people are really cute:). I am sure we have all been played whether we are 100% caucasian or eurasian. All i can say is, ( and I dare say I would differ with Evan on this point), I think women have sex with guys way too early. if women had a 6 months dating before sex policy it would weed out a lot of players. If you are putting out Mia, how long do you date the guys before you have sex with them?
I dated a guy , Valentine”s Day was approaching and I asked what we were doing for the occasion. He stated we weren’t doing anything because “”that would mean something” but in the next breath he was asking when we were going to have sex!! Guess who didn’t get any sex?. You need to know where you stand with a guy BEFORE you have sex with them, if you don’t want to get played.
Christine @77
Ha Ha! Alas, ho only has a sister…. but hey, we older gls need to be flexible…
Karl R said (#60):
I don’t know if you get Marie Claire (my fiancée does). This month there’s an article by a woman who lost 40 pounds … and discovered that she was now a smaller woman with all the same problems and insecurities that she had before losing the weight.
Didn’t Evan have a blog post a couple of years ago where a woman wrote in after having lost a considerable amount of weight, with angst about the vastly higher amount of attention she was now getting from men? She appreciated the attention she was getting as a thin girl, but resented the same guys for not giving her that attention as a fat girl.
[email protected], darn! But hey, can you blame a girl for trying? 🙂 I am learning to loosen up the education and professional “requirements” a bit…I’d be happy with just “smart enough” (somewhere between Einstein and Beavis & Butthead). Well, I console myself with the fact that the few gorgeous, tall professional men I’ve dated turned out to be lousy in bed and maybe I’m not missing out on much by not getting more of them (can I say that on here? Hey, after they let in your little gem about how “farm guy” is in the sack, maybe I can make a comment like that too, haha).
@ Joe #80 – the way I see it, this woman’s angst had nothing to do with her insecurities, and everything to do with her new, first-hand experience at how shallow most people are. She’s still the same person, yet the men who wouldn’t talk to her before, want to date her now. This probably also makes her question their motives — how does she know they want her for the person she is, and not as “exotic flavor of the week” (Mia #75), “my best shot at banging a hot chick” (old friend of mine… true story) or some other kind of status symbol? She probably feels kind of like a man would feel if he came into a lot of money and noticed that, all of a sudden, every woman is in love with him… he’s probably wonder if they want him or his cash.
@ Karl #66, pushing for self-improvement, growth, and being all you can be is awesome, but somehow I think this isn’t what Helen meant by women being told they’re never enough. I’d rephrase it and say we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Just looking at the last few blog posts — if we don’t take care of our looks, men aren’t interested. If we do take care of our looks, the same men label us princesses and high-maintenance, and again are not interested. If we’re not investing in our career, we’re not applying ourselves. if we’re investing in our career, we’re men with vaginas (ick). The list goes on. No matter what a woman does, society finds away to make her feel guilty for it. My answer to this, of course, is — who cares what society thinks? screw society. But I’m old and jaded, and feel like I’ve already accomplished enough on all fronts. For young women in their 20s, this pressure from society/public opinion can be too much.
Goldie:
1) The way she knows whether or not a guy wants her for the person she is, is by getting to know the person he is.
2) I think you’re missing some of Karl’s point. Sure, a guy wants a woman to take care of her looks, but as he says, she’s high-maintenance only if the guy is involved in the maintenance. If the maintenance is invisible to him, he doesn’t care how long it takes her to get ready for dates (so long as she’s not chronically tardy because of it).
@ Joe, I saw that point, I agree with that point, I’m not missing it because it’s irrelevant to what I was replying to (Karl’s #66 and Helen’s #62). Basically I agree with what Helen is saying in #62.
A woman with a jag and her date ran away??…what a wuss….
Ruby said: (#74)
“Men […] are not held to the same unrealistic standard.”
Goldie said: (#82)
“I’d rephrase it and say we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t.”
Do you feel men are never held to an unreasonable standard? Men are never put into a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position by women?
Perhaps you’ve forgotten this blog post. Many women are seeking a strong, self-sufficient, stoic man … who is also sensitive and discusses his feelings.
A man can be stoic, or he can be sensitive & sharing, or he can be somewhere in the middle. But the man can’t be two opposite things at the same time.
I don’t hear men complaining or getting frustrated over this. We don’t claim that it’s an impossible situation. We crack a few jokes about it, then continue being exactly who we are. I’m not going to try to change myself into being something that will appeal to all women (including those with completely opposite tastes). I am certainly not going to try to appeal to the women want two completely opposite traits in their boyfriend. (Those women can wise up or stay single.)
Goldie said: (#82)
“if we don’t take care of our looks, men aren’t interested. If we do take care of our looks, the same men label us princesses and high-maintenance, and again are not interested. If we’re not investing in our career, we’re not applying ourselves. if we’re investing in our career, we’re men with vaginas (ick).”
I doubt it’s the same men who are expecting both. I prefer women who wear little/no makeup and simple hairstyles. Other men prefer women who wear full makeup and elaborate hairstyles. By doing one (instead of the other) you attract a different set of men.
Seriously. If a man eliminates half the women because they don’t do enough with their appearance, and he eliminates the other half because they’re high maintenance, then he’s eliminated all of his dating prospects. That’s his problem, not yours.
Similarly, I want a woman who is capable of supporting herself. My fiancée isn’t in a position where she’s likely to see promotions, and she hasn’t been getting significant raises. She takes an interest in doing her job well, and she’s content where she’s at. Her life isn’t consumed by her work. That’s what is important to me.
Choose a middle ground which works for you. Then accept the reality that your choice has eliminated certain options.
Goldie said: (#82)
“No matter what a woman does, society finds away to make her feel guilty for it. My answer to this, of course, is – who cares what society thinks?”
Society says that I should earn more.
Society says that I should be better educated.
Society says that I should be physically stronger.
Society says that I should be better at fixing things.
Society says that I should be a father.
Society says that I should be more driven to get promotions.
Society says that I should own nicer possessions.
I stopped listening to society in my early 20s. (Right around the time society started telling me that I must be gay.) If someone doesn’t like messages they’re getting from society, the solution is blatantly obvious.
Instead of taking the obvious solution, some people prefer to complain. They don’t accomplish much.
“Yes, some men have taken one look at my salon styles and assumed I’m “high maintenance”. Yet if I just let myself go to be “low maintenance”, those same men wouldn’t find me attractive enough to get to know. Men want women to be beautiful, but how do they expect us to be that without the effort it takes to actually get there? I know very few women who can just roll out of bed looking terrific without some “maintenance” work (look at even those celebrities without makeup—even they aren’t naturally like that).”
This.
Ruby, Goldie, Karl – I don’t think our viewpoints are that far apart (and probably mine are the same as Ruby’s and Goldie’s in this respect).
We would probably all agree that we should focus on doing what makes us happy and staying in our natural character – if people find us attractive, great; if not, at least we’re still being and doing what we want to be and do.
We would probably all agree that everyone is subject to expectations, male or female.
It’s my own personal opinion that women face more expectations than men in society, and these are not necessarily imposed BY men, although some of them are (particularly as pertains to looks and sex). On the whole, I also believe that those expectations specific to women are not necessarily good for women, whereas the expectations of character, learning, etc. that are true of both sexes are at least somewhat good for individuals of both sexes.
We can say all we want that we shouldn’t bow to expectations – I advocate that as well. But it is hard to do that, and sometimes we aren’t even conscious that we are shaping our lives around others’ expectations.
…and women want men to be tall. So?
@ Karl, yep this is exactly my approach 🙂 Though, Helen is right, and it is hard to completely ignore the outside pressure.
@ Joe, this has very little to do with men, women, and dating. Hope I don’t commit blasphemy by saying it on this blog, but there’s more to life than searching for a mate. The pressure to be a million conflicting things comes from a variety of sources — our children’s teacher saying behind our back “Well, what do you expect, of course Johnny would get bad grades — his mom works!”; a job recruiter asking us why we took time off work/refused to work crazy hours when our children were young; well-meaning friends and relatives; the list goes on and on… Sometimes people who express these opinions on what they think we should be, are in a position to directly affect our life. And I agree with Helen that this pressure is worse for women than it is for men, because it’s almost like, in this country, people still haven’t made up their mind on what they want a woman’s role to be — a woman’s place is at home! no, in the workplace! no, both! Only common denominator for most of them are, they all want to show a woman her place, whatever that might be. Sarahrahrah was right when she said on the other thread that it’s a fairly recent development, limited to some cultures but not the others. Vestiges of the Victorian past, if you will.
I think #12 hit the nail on the head. The men respond to how they feel when they are with you. I just recently graduated from medical school – and am now working as a physician. I am relatively young, fun-loving, silly, and don’t take myself all that seriously (and relatively easy on the eyes!) 🙂 I met a man the same age as myself (30) who works with computers. I thought he was great! If my work comes up, I do say that I am a doctor, but I am not even remotely arrogant or pompous in any way. I always tell him that he fascinates ME because when my PC freezes I’m just at a loss…and maybe he can’t fix a person like I can…but he can sure fix my laptop. He’s one of the first non-medical people I’ve dated…b/c my previous bf was in med school with me, so the intimidation factor wasn’t there. But, I try SOOO hard to make this one relax around me, and I’m failing miserably. My car is not nice, I’m not flashy by nature, but maybe I have some designer purses or shoes . I just think he wonders ‘why me’ and continues to wonder when I’ll upgrade. It’s frustrating…but like you have all said…there is someone else out there that would not let this scare them away.
“The only men you can intimidate are the WRONG men.”
Absolutely WRONG!
An intimidating (most often bossy and bitchy) woman will only attract idiots, drunks and assholes who don’t care.
Yeah, guys like you.
Burn! Ouch! haha.
Men don’t disappear because she was nice, caring, warm, loving and giving.
The disappear because she was wingy, winy nagging and bitchy with an over inflated sense of entitlement. Result: pump’n’dump.No women can intimidate a confident man. Smart men don’t put up with it. They smile, say something nice and delete the number or not even ask.
It is very sad nowadays that there are so many High Maintenance Women out there, and they are certainly very Pathetic since they really think that they are all that just by the way they act. most of you women have a very limited IQ to begin with, which explains why so many of us men can’t meet a decent woman anymore today since many of these type of women are so damn spoiled. It is just too bad that we don’t have a real time machine to send many of them back in time to see what it was really like when many men and women had to struggle to survive.
Seriously: Still haven’t gotten a date huh? Same advice- try a new story
Seriously said: (#95)
“most of you women have a very limited IQ to begin with, which explains why so many of us men can’t meet a decent woman anymore today since many of these type of women are so damn spoiled.”
It’s no surprise that you can’t meet a decent woman. You’re extremely insulting to them. I would say every woman should set her sights higher than that.
I met lots of decent women. And if there are many men like you, that would explain why there were so many decent, unattached women available for me to meet.
My !Q was in the top 2% of the population when last tested.
However, IQ is not fixed, also it is EQ that determines healthy relationships. So that is what people need to work on if they want happy healthy relationships.
We attract and our attracted to people who match our EQ in conflict situations.Until we do the work to higher our EQ when in conflict we just attract different people but the the same conflicts and habitual ways of reacting arising over and over again.
To Karl R 95, I just can’t help it since i do meet so many Low Life Women today. and is it right for a woman to Curse me when i will start a conversation with them? Absolutely Not. It is very sad that so many women are like this, and why would i blame myself when i know other men that had this happened to them too? serious question here, would i Curse at a woman that came over to me to start a conversation with me? of course Not.
Seriously- maybe you and “Man” should meet up. Sounds like you have common morals.
Seriously- have multiple women cursed you out or is it just one that you keep on talking about ad nauseum? If it’s one write her off as a bad apple. If it’s multiple women rethink your approach. But stop taking comfort in the fact that you aren’t the only man in the world this has happened to- it’s far from the norm and it won’t help you get what you want.
@Seriously
Maybe its time to look at your approach, if women are cursing at you, like more than one you might be taking the wrong approach. I live in a large city, men harass me daily on the street, sometimes they follow me in their cars and won’t take no for an answer. Sometimes I need to tell them to Eff off, or leave me the eff alone. Their approach is bad and unwelcome.
Seriously 99 – For crying out loud, normal women do not curse men. Karl has said this to you before.
I have never heard a man tell me that he cursed a woman during a conversation (I meet literally thousands of people in my work – no details – and the men have always been courteous and I would not dream of being rude or curse them!l
Please…….find out what is going wrong. You are either giving the wrong impression of yourself (ie one you don’t want to give) or you are choosing the wrong women or both!
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I’m a jewellery freak – can’t help it – when I see jewellery I love, I truly have to have it. Some of it is horribly expensive. On dates, I do not wear my expensive jewellery. Because the message it can convey is geez, how much did that cost? None of their business, but if I don’t wear it, they don’t have to ask that question, do they?
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As far as high maintenance is concerned, I will continue to do my hair regularly, pedicures and manicures and facials, buy new clothes and perfume as and when I think fit. If a man cannot cope with a well groomed woman, then he isn’t the right man for me.
Seriously asked: (#99)
“I just can’t help it since i do meet so many Low Life Women today. and is it right for a woman to Curse me when i will start a conversation with them?”
Yes you can help it. You have one of the worst attitudes towards women I’ve ever encountered. You believe “most of you women have a very limited IQ to begin with.” (That’s your choice of words, not mine.) If that’s your opinion of women, I’d say every woman on the planet is justified when she curses at you.
The other men who have been repeatedly cursed at, do they share your opinion of women? If so, I’d say they deserve to be cursed at too.
I’ve known you for two paragraphs, and you’ve already convinced me that you’re a mal chauvinist and a misogynist whom every woman on the planet (especially the decent ones) should avoid. (I can’t guarantee that my impression is correct, but that’s the impression you’ve clearly given me.)
To make matter worse, I’ve gotten that opinion just by hearing your side of the story. Your side of the story is going to be biased in your favor.
Seriously asked: (#99)
“why would i blame myself when i know other men that had this happened to them too?”
I’ve only heard your side of the story. I haven’t spoken to any of the women you’ve approached. Despite this, you’ve convinced me that you’re a mal chauvinist and misogynist. Are you going to blame the women for that? It’s your own words that convinced me.
You’re the only person to blame for giving me that impression.
You are your own worst enemy in this. Change your attitude towards women. (All women.) Change your approach. Change your results.
Or … you can continue to bad-mouth and blame women.
Seriously, I feel curious are you approaching women who are openly smiling and giving you eye contact?
Or approaching women who are giving you no signs of being interested in engaging with you?
What do you saying to then when you start a conversation?
To Rose, that is why many of us men have trouble meeting a good one nowadays, and i had really thought that my approach went very well. I would first introduce myself who i am, and then ask for their name. I am not an ugly man at all, and i am in very good shape for my age by the way. i have noticed that many women don’t want to be bothered at all when i will try to introduce myself to the one that i am attracted too. Going to the clubs is very hard nowadays, especially when i noticed that other men do get turned down by a woman that they have asked to dance with. So as you can see, it is not just me that gets rejected. What is very sad is that many of the women are much more attracted to the real ugly looking men which is much more of a trend these days, and i really don’t know why. And for the women out there that really think their beautiful are so very stuck up, and have such an attitude problem too. There are certainly many women that are not at all attractive, and i am just looking for a good woman with a good personality which is very important today. Peace.
Seriously 105 – I have heard men say that after a certain age, women are just interested in their cats/dogs and grandchildren.
i have noticed that many women don’t want to be bothered at all when i will try to introduce myself to the one that i am attracted too
Maybe these women are just rude? And you have saved yourself some time???
Seriously:
It’s sure hard to keep approaching once it sinks in that you don’t have a prayer.
I love the comments on this post. I am successful, well educated, have a nice car (not a Jag) and own two homes. I dated a man who knew what I did for a living and knew of the area I live in from date one and I knew the same of him. After 3 dates he knew “I was the one” yet texted me to ask if I wanted to be in a relationship. After 3 dates he still asked me to meet him for our date because he didn’t want to pick me up in his small car. (His words). I saw the flags but kept going because I really felt we had common ground. We both had very difficult childhoods, we both were the only children in the family to put ourselves thru college, we both had horrible divorces and were raising our children. Plus we had awesome chemistry and loved to laugh.
Long story short…he ended up breaking up via text after losing an investment because “he thought he had nothing to offer me”. 4 months go by and I run into him at a local ice cream shop, we were both on dates. He begins texting me that day and I finally have my answers. Men, for the most part need to feel that they are bringing something to the table, that they are providing and can live up to your standards. Some men can not handle the women making more money, it emasculates them. Thank God, not all men feel this way. I refuse to hide who I am, how I got to where I am or change my core values and beliefs for anyone. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find your Prince charming. A women should be proud of her accomplishments, never hide them. Be yourself and be happy. The rest will follow.
Well I think that for me I wanna meet women who are independent and successful. Why? Because I am tired of women that only wanna date for my wealth. Its fake, I am not about scoring someone rich as I have my own fortune, but the sugar momma’s represent the age group I am after (I’m 44 and simply don’t care about someone 20 years younger) is quality women that are not seeking my money and represent the cream of the crop women that I wanna date. Again I don’t care about cash I care about how cool the women is, can she handle my hyper sexuality and still like me. Anyway bottom line is as a person who is in his 40s, independently wealthy and wants to meet quality women I have something in common with me and are in the same caste so I know that whatever we do is real.
those men feel in their gut that something is off, and they’re right. look how quickly she writes them off instead of putting a shred of effort into easing whatever worries they might have had, which were there for a good reason, except she didn’t care enough to find out why or even bother to put in the extra shred of effort to make it work.
great job on man shaming evan. i respect you and appreciate you, but some of the stuff you say about men is pretty low.
I speak my truth, rawr. If you want a blog in which men are always right and women are always wrong, you have your selection of MGOTW sites to frequent.
Honestly I don’t like that “my truth” stuff. My best friend does and I understand why but for me the truth is the truth, it has no room for shades of gray.
I’m willing to bet you see lots of negativity about relationships from both men and women. It probably makes you as sad as me if not more so, but it’s like what are you supposed to do, the damage is done and nobody wants to put in any work on their end, and you telling the woman that it was the man’s fault for being insecure was some horseshit, and probably exactly what her ego wanted to hear, in fact that’s what you see all over the Internet about intimidated men and successful attractive women.
I will almost always defend a man’s side because for every one time someone defends his point of view or even elaborates on it to help others understand, there’s 50+ making him out to be like he’s a coward or some other bullshit.
I hate mgtow because their message is one of hopeless nihilism. They’re saying gender relations are so fucked that your only choice in life is to forsake the thing that humans need most, love. They may not die without it, but their soul will surely lose its shine, its light.
I know it’s hard because you’re human too evan, but as one of the few people trying to fix some of the damage, you have to have compassion for both sides, at all times, period. Especially at times like this when the woman is confused about the man’s behavior she need to know why (“understand men find love” -emc). For me personally I prescribe to stefan molyneux’s real time relationships method for communication with people. You say what’s on your mind and heart, otherwise you get situations where she misses out on a man who she is attracted to because she would rather take the he’s not for me because he had the nerve to say things that made me uncomfortable, was vulnerable enough to say something “unmanly” as many would probably say it. She should have asked him questions, why he feels that way, what she can do to help him feel at ease. they could have bonded so much over just that, as a man he was probably used to that man up crap, a more conpassionate approach could have opened the gates, it was a wasted opportunity.
I ask questions all the time, some of my closest friends get a little irked by it because they’re sometimes complex and you really have to think for an answer, and sometimes it’s at a time when we’re supposed to just enjoy a drink in peace, lol, but I can tell it makes them happy to have someone who obviously wants to understand the contents of their soul.
Curiosity is love, if you don’t care to find out things about the other person, you can not and will not love them, and that’s not for the other person to be ashamed of, that’s your lack of character stealing another opportunity from under your nose. I’m willing to bet if she answered his questions on what it was about him that she was attracted to and why, things may have played out differently, or at least she’d have learned something valuable instead of just having a typical scenario, maybe made a new friend.
People respond to things differently. Some take the evan approach of “c’est la vie”, great. Others need to know and understand, they can’t just take everything on faith and randomness. I for one would need to know why she likes me, because I am one man out of many, an ant in a colony. What else is some people see things In you that you don’t always see in yourself, and being told that would make anyone’s day. “why I need to know” depends on the man, and i for one would be curious to learn why, man or woman, date or not.
I’m also a little ashamed of myself for portraying cynicism, but those are the collective feelings of many, and no one has any right to simply brush it off or throw shamebombs at it, people act the way they do for a reason. People are angry because they are in pain, they are in pain because they feel unworthy of love, at least that’s what so many are telling them (your message to that man included).
I’ve read some of your stuff evan and I have a feeling that if you read this post, you will read the whole thing, and you will maybe have a small light bulb. If I’ve helped you improve your service towards others then that’s all I can ask for.
Interesting comments. All I can say is this……I own a Ferrari. I didn’t buy it to impress anyone but myself. If you can afford the finer things in life…..good…..enjoy it because you earned it. I enjoy all types of people and the car is a wonderful way to meet them. I get lots of attention from it, but It doesn’t make who you are. Kindness, warmth, consideration for others and respect will go a lot further than an over priced play toy. Don’t let things like the expensive car keep you from finding happiness. Life is too short not to enjoy the person driving it
Evan has some sound advice here. I think it’s great these guys who are intimidated by you, are weening themselves out for you! They are making your job easy. They vanish for a reason and it’s mainly a blessing in disguise. who wants to deal with anyone like that? Sounds exhausting you have to change yourself and hide your accomplishments, you have worked so hard for! If they are intimidated, that is their problem. How do you tell a guy he is not out of your league? You don’t. Who cares. Like Evan said, worry about the 25%. You will find someone who’s right for you, just don’t waste your precious time of those who are not for you. You only need one husband. He is out there.
Give me the jaguar! And go date! Really no worries, I can be nice sometimes!
Afraid of Ferrari’s??? I own one and they are they best thing in the world to own. Wonderful way to enjoy the driving expierence and I meet some of the nicest people because of it. But I will let you in on a little secret….I didn’t buy it to meet or impress women. I bought it because I love Ferrari’s. Do what maks you happy and you will find what you want in life. Any car will do.Even Mini Coopers or VW Bugs ar a blast if you find that person that likes what you like. Enjoy what you have and don’t worry about things that are secondary. See the person for who thy are…not what they have.
You gotta love these women. “He only cares about looks, he wont date me for me!!”. Then you see a woman on here say “I dated a nice-handsome professional man but he was horrible in bed”. Apparently the nice-handsome part became irrelevant once he didn’t pass as a proper boy toy. But then they come right back with “We can’t win!……I guess I’ll have to consider an “average” guy” FILLED WITH HYPOCRISY LOL!!! I think the term have your cake and eat it too applies on that one.
Men are considered losers if they don’t have strong pecs and own a home. Get lost with your “only women are shamed! Men are treated like kings!” I thought we’re in the age of female empowerment? You can be “strong” with your career but apparently words and pictures just defeat you instantly? I know feelings and emotion drive women but I thought grown ups can ignore the “noise”?
I feel bad for Nikki, she seems to be honest and genuine. I also understand where the guys are coming from. They view themselves as a potential”trophy husband” to this woman. A trophy wife is for strictly eye candy. A trophy husband is a man she can express her feelings to and go for walks with but he actually has a male genitalia. He isn’t one of her girlfriends. The wealthy are always looking to upgrade so he can be easily replaced by a better looking man that offers maybe one more thing than him, that’s what is going through his mind. I think you need to look for men who are in your income bracket. Middle class men don’t know how to react to feeling like a peasant at first. We feel fulfilled when we can offer something of physical value to the woman we love. Hard labor around the house, gifts, etc. She can purchase or pay a professional for anything and everything so he feels replaceable. Call men “weak” for that, I don’t care. It’s PC to back a woman’s feelings on anything but if a man feels like that, he’s a “child” or “lacks maturity”.
You’ll have better luck with men in your tax bracket because it will just come as a shock to the men you’ve been dating. It’s hardwired in our brain to compete so if he sees a woman outclassing him in every way then he becomes confused and brings up “what can i offer you?” Going to applebees for a date will be seen as “pathetic” to him because of where she’s capable of going. She drives the Jag so he will feel embarrassed to pick her up in a 2000 Ford Ranger with a squeaky serpentine belt. She has the luxury apartment so he will feel like a fool taking her to his “plain” apartment that only has the bare essentials or nothing fancy. This is probably why he says “why me?” She might strike gold and find some middle class guy who doesn’t have the typical male psyche but don’t be shocked if this continues.