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I love your column and think you do a great job of answering questions and concerns with sympathy, empathy and insight. Flattery aside, I have a dilemma. I’ve been dating my boyfriend for about 3 years. I’m truly happy with him about 90% of the time. We discussed moving in together when my lease is up in October, but now I know he’s not ready. He’s really independent and values his alone time. I tell him that he can still have that if we’re living together, but he’s still not sure when he’ll be ready. That worries me.
He feels really strongly about living with me and equates it to marriage. We knew a couple who broke up after living together. I asked if that’s why he doesn’t want to move in–because he’s afraid we’ll break up and it’ll be a pain to move out. He said he’s not worried, that if we move in together, he’s sure we’ll stay together, like it’s a forever thing.
Right now we see each other 4-5 times a week, and I mostly I stay at his place. He also has this professional project that’s a big priority. He’s been working on it for more than 2 years so I don’t know if that’s also a factor in why he’s reluctant to move forward. We almost never fight, but when we do it’s always about the bigger issue: our future together. I want more, but he’s not ready. I’ve told him that I’ll wait and believe he’ll be worth it. I know this all sounds like justification, but he really has made improvements in the past year. Before me, he was in two longer-term relationships, and he said that he’s never had what we have now, that he’s never even considered marriage and kids with anyone else before and that I’m not just his girlfriend, I’m his best friend. He’s never even considered giving a girl a key to his apartment! But when he moved this past July, he let me decorate/organize his kitchen which he said was big for him because he likes to be in control of that.
I told him that, regardless of what the future holds, I won’t regret any of the time we’ve had together because I love him. So I realized that I said I’d wait for him, but I still find myself trying to pressure him to take the next step. I think I need to stop if I truly believe it when I say that I’ll wait and be patient, but I’m not sure how to do just back off and give him the space he needs to make a decision. Am I being completely foolish and just a pathetic girl? I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment…and therein lies the rub… So I’m seeking an outsider’s view. Help? Thanks, Sophie
Dear Sophie,
I know you’re looking for advice, but I want to use your email as a teaching tool. See, I edited Sophie’s letter for brevity (really, I did!), where she mentioned how her relationship started…seeing each other once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week. By being patient and not putting pressure on her boyfriend, she allowed it to develop into a healthy, loving relationship that has a chance of going the distance.
Had she not taken this stance, her boyfriend would have bailed, and she would not have the chance of going the distance. So while you might think, “Yeah, but she may have wasted three years on a guy who won’t marry her,” you’d be mistaken.
By being patient, you allow a healthy, loving relationship to develop.
Sophie said herself that her relationship wasn’t a waste of time, no matter what happens next. She’s just (rightfully) insecure that her boyfriend’s afraid of taking the next step. But what course of action gives Sophie better options? Cutting him off after a few months because he’s not positive that she’s “the one”? Or patiently allowing him to fall in love with her, to consider her his best friend, to know that he can’t picture his life without her? I think the answer is obvious.
I proposed to my wife after 14 months because my girlfriend was 38, we both wanted kids, and I was a dating coach who finally figured out what was important in life.
But my story is the exception.
I have three very close friends who were with their girlfriends for 3 years before proposing. Their girlfriends were all 3-4 years older, and they were feeling far more biological pressure than I suspect that you do. And yet, despite their ticking clocks, they hung in there patiently, just like you… right up until the 3-year mark. That’s when they decided to leave if they didn’t get a ring. As well they should.
At the 3-year mark, there’s literally no new information that your boyfriend is trying to gather about you. He loves you. He’s attracted to you. He enjoys hanging out with you. He has everything he wants with you.
Which is why it’s so comfortable for him to keep things exactly the way they are now.
The problem is that it’s not comfortable for you to walk this tightrope, investing more and more time with a man who is not ready to commit.
Thus, the only leverage you have is to walk away from him and see if he follows.
At the 3-year mark, there’s literally no new info that your boyfriend is trying to gather…
Sure, you can wait for another year.
Sure, you can move in together.
Sure, you can discuss a future together.
But this doesn’t give you what you’re looking for. This is just moving deck chairs around the Titanic, spinning wheels, making noise. These are just things that you might do to avoid breaking up, but they don’t ensure that you’ll be together forever.
If you want to be married, it’s time for him to step up and marry you.
If he doesn’t want to marry you, it’s time for him to let you go.
After 3 years, there are no valid excuses. Only some version of “I’m not ready,” or “I’m not sure”. Too bad, mister. You had three years to figure it out. You don’t get three more.
You talk about your boyfriend’s “professional priorities” that prevent him from proposing. Bullshit. My best friend is getting married this week even though he’s quitting his safe job as a lawyer to start his own company. I assure you, if your guy wanted to marry you, it would happen.
Waiting is just moving deck chairs around the Titanic.
What you don’t want is to be the woman who holds on, hopefully, giving him everything he wants and sacrificing everything that you want. I know someone who has spent 7 years – her childbearing years — waiting for her boyfriend to propose. He negotiated for her to move in with him, and that’s where they stand. Satisfying for him. Not so much for her.
If you’re willing to be that woman — the one who waits forever for the day that never comes, then that’s your prerogative.
You’ll have another 3 years with your boyfriend.
What you won’t have is a husband.
Because he doesn’t want to be a husband.
And you knew it.
And you ignored it.
And there’s no one to blame at that point but you.
You did the right thing to get here, Sophie.
Now cut the patience, get your answers, or move on.
Good luck.
Katarina Phang says
Great advice, Evan. Another thing she can do is still seeing him but decrease her level of commitment until he steps up to the plate. She should start dating other men.
That will keep her busy and less available and appear more confidence around him because other guys adore her. See how it works for a few months. And she might get lucky along the way by finding the right man whom she’s crazily attracted to who is ready and available for her.
It’s a losing battle for any woman to get attached to a man who doesn’t want to man up. And like you said, it’s all bullshit excuses he’s giving. If a man wants to do something and if he’s so into a woman and fear of losing her, he’ll do anything in his might to keep her.
Hopefully by dating, she -and eventually he- will see her real values. Don’t give in, don’t give up.
Good luck.
Eve says
what difference will a ring make? A couple I know have just hit the 12 year mark & had their first kid. He didn’t want to get married-The End. It might not have been what she wanted but she wanted him & stayed, they’re very happy.
Cher says
Only applicable if the woman is satisfied with this situation. For many women,marriage is important and the man should honor this if this is what the woman wants. Women should not be sacrificing their values and beleif in marriage just because he’s not ready.
hilarityensues says
“For many women,marriage is important and the man should honor this if this is what the woman wants. Women should not be sacrificing their values and beleif in marriage just because he’s not ready.”
Right. Because only one person’s values matter in this equation.
monica says
It’s not that only one person’s values matter. What it is about, is that one person wants something. Very badly, I might add. It’s important to her. And I’m willing to bet that he’s known this for a long time and has never came out and said “listen, I don’t want that, but I love you and want to build a real life with you forever.” I’m also willing to bet he has quietly led her to believe the potential for this to happen exists. But that after 3 years it has become increasingly obvious that he was full of sh*% and wants her, as is, because he loves her (at least in some way), is comfortable, and figures by not marrying her, he won’t be alone and when someone better comes along, he’ll be free to go….haven’t not locked it down with a marriage. Where does that leave her? Her dreams? Her trust in him? I doubt she would’ve written to Evan had he ever told her he “wasn’t” going to or “didn’t want to ever” marry her. It’s a con. And it robs her of her best years, of her dreams and hopes for the life she probably has always wanted. ….because he was too selfish to tell her the truth. I’m not anti men. But they do this often. And I’ve spoken with many who have and they all say that they always knew they weren’t going to marry the girl.
Christine says
Honoring a woman’s values doesn’t mean giving in to her every whim. It’s having the guts and unselfishness to let her find someone who wants the same things as her. Be honest and respect her values. Let her know if you can’t offer her what she’s looking for.
Sam says
I’m sure that she actually has a lot of resentment that she has not been married yet. Just because you have committed to living together, which really seems like saying I like you enough to live with you but not enough to share the rest of my life with you. Which really living together a uhaul and some boxes, that is your break up, but marriage is a promise of forever. People have children out of wedlock all the time and it doesn’t say anything about their relationship. If she wanted to get married, but he didn’t why would he have a child with her? Maybe in hopes of a shotgun wedding?
The bottom line is that if one person wants something like marriage and the other doesn’t there really is no compromise in it. You might wait “X” amount of time, but the desire for marriage doesn’t go away. After a while the person desiring marriage will feel less worthy, and they might try to change things in order to be more desirable to the other person in a marriageable sense.
Christine says
They’re both happy because she is happy not being married. It’s impossible to not want what you want! And it’s very difficult to be happy when feeling that the one person who could make a dream come true isn’t willing to do it. Her dream come true obviously isn’t marriage.
Lynn says
Excellent advice, as usual Evan. But I question the *three year* milestone. Unless this is a young couple in their 20’s, just establishing their careers and generally establishing their independence, I would think that 1 – 2 years would be sufficient for commitment minded people.
Carolyn says
Completely agree. If there’s nothing new he’ll learn in three years, same can go for two. Im 30 and giving my boyfriend of a year several more months to tell me he loves me and mention me when he talks about the future. Waiting TWO ADDITIONAL years would just be plain stupid. And I’m not that stupid, anymore.
Babs says
@Carolyn 3.1 – Sorry, but I think you should double check yourself as if you are with someone for a year and he STILL hasn’t said “I love you” or spoken about any future, then I don’t think it’s going to happen. I don’t see how 3 more months after 12 months is going to make a difference.
Not sure when you posted this, but if it did happen, congrats!
hilarityensues says
It’s almost as if each relationship moves at different speeds.
But nah, let’s just use our arbitrary, subjective opinions define every relationship.
Amanda says
Hi Carolyn! Just wondering what has transpired in your relationship?? I was in similar situation. Took my guy a little over a year to even say “I love you!”
Hope things went as you hoped! Please update?
Krystal says
Agreed!
Honey says
This letter doesn’t say how old they are – if they’re still in their 20s then there’s no reason to rush. I think the “alone time” thing is a bunch of crap, though, if they’re considering having kids. You’re NEVER ALONE AGAIN after that…
Cat says
Honey (#5) “I think the “alone time” thing is a bunch of crap, though, if they’re considering having kids. You’re NEVER ALONE AGAIN after that…”
That cracked me up! So true!!! Not only will they not be alone, they won’t have any time! All the parents I know, whether divorced or married, run from soccer practice to karate practice to school function, multiplied by number of kids they need to chauffer… The ones who’re divorced and trying to date have very few free nights, especially on weekends. “Cat, do you want to go out to dinner? On Tuesday, two weeks from now? You’re busy? OK, how about Tuesday night in four weeks?”
Selena says
Sophie,
He likes the life you have together just the way it is. There is no guarantee that “waiting for him” will ever result in him feeling differently. So take the focus off him. ARE YOU content enough with this together, but not-living-together arrangement? Could you live the rest of your life with him in this arrangement if it came to that?
If the answer is yes, then accept that you are not like other couples and be content with what you have. If the answer is no, then you should consider breaking it off with him, or following Katarina’s advice and dating other guys as well as him. It just depends on what you truly want. Some people believe “if it aint’ broke, don’t fix it” .
Steve says
@Eve #2
It makes a difference to the children in our culture, to have their parents married to each other ( in the present or the past ).
Zann says
“…he let me decorate/organize his kitchen…” Oh man.
Sophie, you’re so smitten with this guy that you’re appreciative when he LETS you make his life easier. Evan said it clearly and kindly. Three years? Enough. Special work project? BS. Needs alone time? Well, who doesn’t? Many people are in live-in committed relationships and still manage to have alone time. It’s time to be proactive. If he pursues you, good for him; but even if he does — be clear about what you want and stick to it. Marriage and commitment are important to you. You’ve offered it to him and you’ve been patient. Now it’s time to put yourself first and move on to your next chapter. Best of luck.
InaccessibleRail says
@Eve: Why should it have been all about what he wanted? It makes me concerned for her that it was his way or the highway. If the ring really didn’t make that much difference, why wasn’t he willing to give it to her, knowing how happy it would make her if he had? It also confuses me that he was willing to have a kid but not get married. You can get divorced and get someone out of your life for good (and get your freedom back) if that’s what you need to do. But if you have a kid, you’re stuck with the other parent for 18 years at least! (And that’s how long you sacrifice your freedom, too, incidentally. So that just seems like an odd decision for someone who’s commitment-averse to make.You say they’re happy now, but I have several friends and acqaintances who have been waiting seven years or more. They put on a good show, but when you get a drink or two in them, the truth comes out–and most are very unhappy and insecure in their situations. Not saying everyone should get married. Some couples really don’t want to, and that’s more than OK. But when one person wants to and one person doesn’t, that usually spells trouble.
Imperfect Love says
At age 30, I was in a 1.5 year relationship. Had the talk with him and walked away…best decision of my life. I now have been meeting better men…and in turning back realized that he wasn’t the right one. If he was the right one, I’m sure for the both of us that he would have followed. I think there is a reason for everything. He wasn’t worth it for me to wait. It’s hard to walk away, but when you look back, you’ll know it was the right thing to do. Why would you want someone who doesn’t want you forever? It’s just common sense! 🙂
Krystal says
@Imperfect love: thanks for sharing. I agree with you! 🙂
BeenThruTheWars says
@Eve 2 — if she wants a ring, she wants a ring. Many people — men and women alike — truly want to be married. They want that standing in their family, their church, their community, as well as legally and financially. You raise a valid question for Sophie to think about; but if her answer remains, “I want a husband, not a steady boyfriend,” then seeking a traditional commitment is her prerogative.
Sophie, three years is a very long time (unless you are under 25). Generally, 18 months to 2 years is the stage where you want to seriously think about fishing or cutting bait. I agree with Lynne @3 on this, and Evan is right on the money all through his post.
Your conversation will start with some variant of, “I know I said I would wait for you to be ready indefinitely, but I’ve rethought my position on this. I am not willing to wait forever for you to make a real commitment. I love you and I want to be with you, but if that’s not in the cards for us anytime soon then let’s take a break and see other people.” Then follow through. Step back, don’t contact him, and live your own life. You should know within a couple months whether he’s going to step up to the plate — perhaps much sooner, if your relationship is “90% positive” for him, as well. If he doesn’t come to you with a ring AND a calendar, then as Evan points out, you will be free to find the man who can’t live without you, and is willing (eager!) to marry you to make sure nobody else scoops you up first.
The calendar part (setting a date and closing the deal) is important with a guy like this, who has already demonstrated that once he gets comfortable he likes to just put it in park and stick there. You don’t want to wind up with a pretty ring on your finger and a three-year, go-nowhere engagement, such that you have to have this same talk with him AGAIN six years in.
Krystal says
@beenthruthewars: powerful!
Sam says
I’ve known a couple of successful marriages that began with the girlfriend giving her boyfriend an ultimatum: propose or I’m walking. It’s not romantic, but it ends the limbo.
I think the “he’s just not that into you” principle works here too. If he wants to be married to you, he’ll ask, and he won’t let work committments get in the way. He probably does love you more than any other girl, but he might have some issues with you. If you know you want to be married, it’s time to prod him.
A-L says
Evan, Selena, and BeenThruTheWars have hit the nail on the head, assuming that Sophie and her boyfriend began dating when they were 25 or older. They said it so well, I’ve got nothing left to say.
Selena says
Did I miss something? In the letter posted she doesn’t say she wants a ring, or to get married, or that he wants kids without getting married. It came across to me that she wanted to move in with him and he’s not ready.
I dunno folks, but I think being 90% happy without living together may not be as bad as some of you are making it out to be. Better than being being more unhappy living together. Which can happen, especially when one person would rather not.
M says
@ Salena #14:
If she wants more, she is not 90% happy. I JUST broke up with my boyfriend of 1.8 years because he is “not ready” to get married, and wont be ready for 10 years, or so!! Ya, he has issues from his divorce, and has general concerns about marraige. But if I was the one for him he would work that shit out so he could keep me. It is a very lonely feeling to be with somebody you are deeply in love with and want a future with, that does not want a future with you. Feeling that way is not 90% happy. Its very sad.
3 years is more than ample time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with her.
She deserves the healthy, intimate, commited relationship that she wants. We all do. If he cant give it to her than she is not getting what she needs from this relationship and should move on to find someone that can and will give her what she needs.
Just my 2 cents 🙂
M says
Oh ya…
…I know she said she was 90% happy, and you were just speaking to that, but I dont think she can be that happy if she really wants more. It really is a sad thing. It overshadows the positives of the relationship. So maybe their interactions are positive, but she isn’t feeling good about the relationship…thats all I was saying 🙂
Selena says
@M#15:
It’s her last sentence that I’m thinking about: “I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment…therein lies the rub…”
Suppose she does breakup with this guy because he doesn’t want to live with her, where’s the guarantee she will find someone else she is happy with 90% of the time? Who considers her his best friend as well as his girlfriend? Who wants her to live with him? She could be “wasting her time” for another x number of years with a guy who doesn’t want to make a formal committment – and she could also waste the same amount years unhappily dating man after man like apparently many people who read this blog have/are.
This is a circular argument: if he really loved her he’d give her the committment she wants; if he doesn’t give in, then he didn’t really love her. But if she really loved him, then why couldn’t she be content with having what alot of couples don’t have? And how much did she really love him if she was willing walk anyway?
It seems hard enough to find someone to truly connect with that leaving a relationship where one is happy 90% of the time might just not be worth the gamble. So it goes to her to decide: how content/discontent is she with the relationship really? Maybe you are right and she’s lying when she says she’s 90% happy. Or maybe that was just you.
Nice says
I total understand her feeling of being 90% happy….. But is everybody 100% happy in there relationship all of the time. NO! I believe she a commitment to her. He just need time adjusting his life. I am have been with my boyfriend for 2 year and he is divorced, as am I, and his girlfriend after the divorce and before me was a very bad person. She was an alcoholic and criticized him and treated him badly. When him and I started dating i knew it was going to difficult for him. He shows me everyday he loves me and is just so sweet and takes care of me in so many ways. I have been divorced for 12 years and said i would never marry again. I would marry my boyfriend if every given the chance. I love him. He has been divorced only 3 1/2 yrs. If it has taken me this long to finally want to marry, I have to be understanding to how he might feel. He never makes me doubt his love. There are many cruel men and woman out there, who are unfaithful. If he is faithful ans shows you how much he loves you everyday in his words and his actions, why won”t you wait for him to ready. Do not compare your commitment of your relationship to others. They have a different story. If you rush your relationship to have what everyone else has then, you will be the one losing out. They might have rushed their relationships to be more committed, but i am sure they have more issues then you can imagine. I see this with all my friends around me. Several friends of mine got into relationships around the time i did, with my boyfriend. They rushed into a commitment such as living together and marriage and they are more miserable than you can imagine. They all wished they had a relationship like ours because we honestly get along great and love each other deeply.
Nikki G. says
Oh Nice, I dated a divorced man for over 3 years who couldn’t commit to me when I was in my early 30’s, I was so hurt an confused by what he had going on that it threw me off for a few years. I am now dating a divorced man again and after speaking with a close male friend who is divorced I realize that while part of it was my ex, part of the drama that characterized our relationship was my lack of understanding and patience. Don’t get me wrong, I tried, but I had no clue about the feelings divorced people had about commitment. This time I’ll pay attention to what’s going on and while I won wait forever, I don’t believe in ultimatum and I will let things grow at their own pace and if/when I have to walk away, it won’t be to see if he’ll follow.
Selena says
@M #16:
For anyone in this kind of situation I believe it comes down to which is more important to them: the committment, or the person.
Personally I don’t think I could walk away from a relationship in which I was happy 90% of the time. But I’ve been in cohabitating relationships that often fell far short of that.
Ruby says
I think you can be happy much of the time and still not want the same things out a relationship as your partner. But for many, many people those things are incredibly important: marriage, security, children, commitment beyond dating. Three years seems like enough time for the boyfriend to know.
M says
Salena:
She is not satisfied with that level of commitment, or she wouldn’t be emailing EMK for advice. It could possibley be just me, and just about every other person that posted on this board, but the bottom line is if she is getting her needs met. It doesn’t sound like she is, so as much as she loves this guy, he isn’t meeting her needs. Someone else will.
There is nothing wrong with living with someone without marrying them, or for that matter staying a “living apart” couple, if that is what you want and need. She is saying she needs something different. If he doesn’t want to or can’t give that to her, than he’s not the one for her. She should not compromise that need to be with him or anyone. That is not “I need my morning coffee before 6 am” that is something a little more serious. You should not compromise needs to be with someone, you compromise on wants.
Yes, it is possible that she could leave him and never find someone else like him…but it’s more possible that she could leave him and find some one with similar future goals and desires that can and will make her happy.
There are a lot of fish in the sea. If you know what you want, it is not that difficult to find.
Steve says
Popular articles state that romantic love is state of the brain and that it impairs a person’s judgment about who are in love with. These articles also state that the delicious insanity of the brain state of “romantic love” only lasts between 1 – 3 years.
So, if you believe that, 3 years doesn’t seem like a bad place to draw the line for deciding if a relationship should move on or not. The buzz has cleared and you are free to take an objective look.
Karl R says
Sophie said: (original letter)
“I’m truly happy with him about 90% of the time.”
What’s the other 10%? Frustrated? Annoyed? Even some abusive boyfriends are great guys 90% of the time. A lot depends on what that other 10% is like.
Lynn said: (#3)
“I question the *three year* milestone. […] I would think that 1 — 2 years would be sufficient for commitment minded people.”
I think that can vary with factors besides age. If someone is in a long-distance relationship where they only see each other once a month, that will slow things down. If someone feels urgency in starting a family, that will speed things up. For people like my girlfriend and I who don’t want kids, there’s no rush.
However, I don’t see any of those factors in Sophie’s letter.
Selena said: (#17)
“Suppose she does breakup with this guy because he doesn’t want to live with her, where’s the guarantee she will find someone else she is happy with 90% of the time?”
I’ve always believed that I could always do at least as well as I have in previous relationships. There are always tradeoffs (better in one area, not as good in another), but on an overall level, I have repeatedly done at least as well (or left because I hadn’t). That standard has moved up over the years because a couple girlfriends were distinctly better than anyone I’d ever dated before.
I can’t guarantee that this will hold true for other people. A couple other factors may have contributed to my success. I have improved over the years: more attractive, more confident, better job/income (not the most important traits, but they open options). Furthermore, since I don’t want kids, I have the luxury of time. If it takes a year or two to find another great girlfriend, that’s preferable to spending years with someone who doesn’t meet that standard.
My situation is not comparable to Sophie’s, so I can’t tell you whether she can do as well (or better). Based on my experiences, my knee-jerk reaction is that she (or anyone else) can find someone else who is as good.
JB says
Without knowing these people’s stats ie: ages?,prior marriages?,kids? etc…. it’s impossible to know what to tell them because there’s so many variables. We need more info on all these “abstract/real situations”???
Obviously it’s alot easier at 25 to cut and run and meet someone “new” and “fall in love” all over again. At 38-44…. good luck with that….LOL
@Cat # 6 ….LOL That’s the story of my life,meeting or NOT meeting women on or offline who are so busy with their kids they can’t even make a date for 2 weeks from now…lol ………….NEXT !
Helen says
There’s another reason for Sophie to make herself less available: that is that someone who is so available (either male or female) is just not attractive or someone you can easily respect. Katerina Phang mentioned this in the first comment. Sophie is definitely coming off as a doormat in her letter. I don’t say this to condemn her, because to a certain extent, society encourages all women to be self-sacrificial. But it’s not good for us, and neither is it desirable to men.
Making herself less available to this waffling boyfriend, taking a step back, will indicate respect for herself as well as providing him the distance he needs to make a decision, either in favor of or against taking the relationship to the next level. No matter what happens, it is better for both parties.
Christie Hartman says
This is a good example of an exception to the 90% Rule. You can be happy in a relationship 90% of the time, which is quite good, but if the relationship isn’t moving forward at a pace faster than, say, a snail’s, that 10% will be the Deal-Breaker. Three years? This dude sounds like a true Commitmentphobe. Shit or get off the pot. Avoiding your fears isn’t going to make them go away!
“I’ve told him that I’ll wait and believe he’ll be worth it.”
That’s fine for a while, but it has to have a time limit, and you’ve reached it. Why should he change if he doesn’t have to? Time to move on, Sophie. Hopefully he’ll face his fears and come after you.
Selena says
Maybe her being not happy with him 10% of the time is enough reason for him not to want her living with him. And for her to re-think why she wants to live with him anyway.
Katarina Phang says
Luxe, I’d recommend her either:
1. have the honest talk, that she can’t risk losing more years without getting what she really wants, so she will need to get out there and let other men who are ready and willing to step up to the plate find her. It’s only fair. She can say that she will only have sex with him but she will be open to other guys courting her.
2. Just do it anyway, show him with action by withdrawing. He’ll get the message.
Whatever she feels comfortable with. The idea is not to put one’s eggs in one basket anymore. Three years is enough time.
Luxe says
@26 ROFL. Love the quote there!
@24 Helen
I don’t get how you make yourself more unavailable. By just not going to see him as often? By going out with friends more? That’s the only way I could think up of if I wanted to be come more unavailable to someone. Someone here mentioned to break up with him and date him and other men. I don’t see how that would work. I also don’t see how dating other men without a clean break would work, which is what I got out of post #1.
Selena says
Re:#28
Ofcourse if she did decide to see other men, she risks him not going along with that idea and breaking it off completely with her. And if she was prepared for that, why not just go ahead and make a clean break?
Christie Hartman says
I can see the benefit of stepping back rather than just walking away, as Katarina and others have suggested. But it’s much easier said than done. You have to be disciplined. And it’s tough to be open to new people when your heart is still the original partner. A clean break done with kindness, and still staying in touch (to remind him of what he’s missing), may be the best way.
But can she find someone else she’s compatible with who will commit? You bet she can.
Katarina Phang says
A clean break is always easier said than done. Sometimes decreasing level of commitment is good enough and workable for both. Like in my case with my husband. I met my new guy while still dating him. It works for me (and bet for him too…granted somebody else might snatch me away sometime soon). It makes me less needy and anxy and allows him to come to me and initiate all the contacts.
Guys value their freedom more than love, initially. When they have overcome the fear of losing their freedom by giving them a taste what it may feel to them losing love, they will hopefully start to rearrange their priorities. And women can’t do it by clinging to them.
So this is why dating as many guys help. It gives her the sense of empowerment and her boyfriend a space to think things through while seeing her far more attractive for the scarcity factor (less available) and more self-confidence (the goddess/diva vibe).
It’s a winning strategy for both
Anita says
This is such great advice Katarina! Thumbs up. I agree and am using this strategy as well.
Tiffany says
Katrina, that’s good advice. Not one appreciated by all i’m sure, but in this day and age why shouldn’t a woman (or a man) in this situation regain some sense of self control. It is empowering and personally, having found myself in the same kind of life that Sophie finds herself in, i have found an inner peace and strength from dating other men. I love my boyfriend, and want him to be ‘the one’, but he’s struggling to make that commitment of living with me, despite telling me i’m the one he wants to spend the rest of his life with. He’s still married to his wife whom he separated from over 10 years ago, and i know this will never change. I’ve felt a fool, but i continue to compromise.
Selena says
I agree that dropping down a level is easier said than done, because one changes the dynamic when deciding to do that. There is a difference in being partners who live together, to * just dating*. And there would be a difference between spending 4-5 nights together every week to dating other people. If this woman chose to try it, she would have to be prepared that her boyfriend(ex-boyfriend?) would be free to court other women as well. And staying in touch (to remind him of what he’s missing), may not be the best way if he becomes involved with someone else. How would she feel then?
All these “strategies” are basically a form of trying to give the guy an ultimatum, “Let me move in with you, or I’ll walk”. And hope he gives in and allows her to move in. And as is the nature of ultimatums: when you give one, it’s not only to the other person, it’s to yourself as well. Does she really want to walk if he doesn’t take the bait? Maybe she is that dissatisfied and she should. BUT…it seems to me a better strategy would be to have someone who wanted you to live with him – not trying to coerce, or finagle him to do so. For whatever reason(s) this guy doesn’t want her in his home fulltime, and if he did give in (so as not to lose her), what makes anyone think their living together relationship would be happier? He might turn out to be resentful, and that 90% happy on her part would drop despite getting what she wanted.
So that brings her back to the crux of it: would she be happier staying in the relationship she has? Or would she be happier done with it? Which is more important: the *committment*, or the man?
Since she wrote the letter months ago, it would be nice if she wrote back in with her thoughts on the situation now.
The InBetweener says
If you’re ever dating a person that thinks being married is more important than being with you, that person MIGHT NOT love you.
I hear a lot of so called “NEEDS” vs. “WANTS” but no one “NEEDS” to be married. People CHOOSE/WANT to be married, so they get married. However, there are a lot of people that ARE NOT MARRIED, yet they still continue to live. Go figure.
NEEDS are things you CANNOT live without. WANTS are things you can live without but covet. People “NEED” food, water, air; etc., but NO HUMAN can really claim to “NEED” to be married. If someone claims to love you, but then says, “We can’t continue on because we NEED to be married” they might not really love you (the person) they might just “LOVE” the idea of being married, which is why you hear, “I need to be married by the age of XX – after we’ve dated for X amount of years”. Which is why, sadly, people become interchangeable in these situations – if not you, then somebody else. How would it make you feel if the person you were with told you that if you did not do “XYZ” that they would find someone else who will?
Love doesn’t give ultimatums or ask you to choose between them and you. Love doesn’t walk away from you to see if you “claim” to love them enough to “CHASE” them. Love only knows how to give, it never takes, it never demands and it isn’t selfish.
With that said, I’d rather be wanted (someone wants/chooses to be with me) than needed (someone claims to need me for some reason or another). Remember, no one needs you to live and you don’t need anyone to live either.
Selena says
Re: #32
And I suppose it’s still a winning strategy if the guy decides he doesn’t want chase his ex if she’s dating other guys, and finds himself someone else instead. That’s the gamble the woman takes when she employs this empowering strategy.
If Sophie wants someone she can live with 7 days a week instead of 5, I’m sure she will find that someone. And hopefully she will be more than 90% happy with the new guy.
Katarina Phang says
Selena, obviously one takes this strategy taking into account that she’ll be happier having more options rather than in a “half-baked” relationship that doesn’t give her what she really wants deep down.
If he can’t take it, he knows what to do. But you’ll never know if you just settle and accept things even when they bother you so much. At least both parties will get a better picture after all these experiments of what they really want and what they’re bound to lose. It’s better than stifling status quo.
All is fair in love and war.
And Inbetween, are you saying that women are not supposed to expect/want marriage? That they can’t have both love and marriage. What a limiting belief that is!!! The “need” to be in a committed relationship (marriage) is inherent in most women (or even men). It’s perfectly okay to expect and want it, especially if she/they want to have kids.
Selena says
Katarina,
I’ve read Rory Raye’s blog and I think the strategy of circular dating may work quite well for some women before a serious relationship is established. I don’t see it working as well in 3 yr. relationship where the two people love each other and spend 5 days out of 7 together. How is that a “half-baked” relationship? It’s hard to go backward successfully. You and your husband perhaps being an exception.
From the letter, I didn’t get the impression the writer Sophie, was experiencing as much angst over “stifling status quo” as you and some of the other commenters are crediting her with. She says she’s happy 90% of the time. She understands that other couples, who have a “commitment” may not have what she and her lover have. My impression is that she was questioning whether she should be content with her relationship, not that she desperately wasn’t. Maybe she isn’t happy 90% of the time. Maybe she’s just trying to convince herself she is. Who knows? Be nice if she would write in and clarify wouldn’t it?
And all IS NOT fair in love and war. If only it were that simple.
Quite frankly since you ARE married and dating other men, I find your “advice” suspect at best.
Katarina Phang says
Selena, I’m NOT technically married…sorry to burst your bubbles here. We’re separated and considering reconciliation. Please delay your judgment here. He’s my “husband” only because we are not legally divorced.
I talk to my new guy more than him these days and I feel great. Less conflict to me, at least.
You don’t know if the 10% of her being unfulfilled is the most basic thing she wants in relationship and I can imagine if it is (so it’s not actually not really 10% but more likely 50%). It’s not hard to understand. As a woman I want what she wants also.
No matter how wonderfully we get along 90%, if he doesn’t want what I want: marriage/family, it’s a deal breaker.
It’s really that simple. The fact that she wrote Evan in the first place is a strong indication she’s not fundamentally happy and needs more. What can a person do when she’s feeling stuck? Right, try a different approach as we have given here. The idea is you need to stir up the boat to really know what you really want and find out if you can change the status quo.
You call it ultimatum, whatever…. You need to resort to it at one point or another when other ways don’t work. I call it sticking to your values/principles. Do you suggest settling instead? I don’t think so.
JuJu says
I am actually kinda confused by this advice: Sophie was right to be patient initially, but she is not right anymore? To me this whole situation sounds like she gave someone who wasn’t crazy about her from the beginning a chance to see how wonderful she really is, only, years later, he is apparently still not convinced.
I don’t really believe in the concept of “the one”, but I do believe in unequivocally wanting to be with someone, and I personally would have needed to know that after a year, not three. I think if that feeling doesn’t develop within a year, it never will.
Incidentally, I think that’s what being in love with someone translates into – that you have no doubts as to your choice. If you are not truly in love (even if you do love that person), you will not have the same kind of confidence.
Selena says
Katarina,
You’re not married? My mistake. When people refer to someone as their HUSBAND I assume that they are legally married. And unless they have a divorce decree they are TECHNICALLY married.
As a woman you want what she wants also? She wants to live with her boyfriend of 3 years. You want to be married? To your husband or to one of your recent boyfriends? Confusing.
We are in agreement here: “I call it sticking to your values/principles.” To me that would mean Sophie decides if her values/principles are continuing a non-cohabitating relationship with someone she claims to love, OR deciding she would be happier with someone else who wanted to co-habitate with her. Not playing manipulative games to “stir up the boat” as you put it.
SHE is the one to shit or get off the pot if this relationship is not enough for her. Resonate any?
Katarina Phang says
Selena, I’m not going to argue with you about what marriage is all about. It’s obviously not just a paper thing, but I digress. You want to believe what you want to believe. And if you want a black and white approach of things, there is nothing I can do to make you see where I’m or others are coming from.
It’s my business, anyway and I prefer to keep it that way.
Bottom line is, my relationship with my “ex” (legally still my husband) is on hold right now so I’m really single and so is he.
I want to be happy with a great guy who deserves me. How’s that? It’s bound to a heartache for a woman to want a guy instead of focusing on what she really wants in life: great relationship with a great guy who adores and wants her more than anything else in the world. It can be him or someone better than her current bf who can’t obviously give what she really wants.
Do NOT settle.
There is nothing manipulative with what I suggested. It’s simply giving back the power to oneself. It’s the goddess way. Women are always in the loss when they focus on men who can’t fully commit to them after enough time has passed for them to make such decision. I don’t think you can really argue on that.
Katarina Phang says
You got it wrong, again, Selena. No, it’s not about making someone you love jealous. Sorry, that’s your words, not mine. It simply boils down to a principle that until a man commits in the way she wants/needs him to, she can’t and doesn’t want to be exclusive with him and thus closing the door to other men who might be up to the challenge to find her.
It’s her choice. If he doesn’t like it, then so be it (and yes you should be honest about it with him too, tell him the truth about your needs to date multiple men). She needs to love herself more than anyone else in the world.
Inbetween, I’ll call it a need of a higher order as per Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. It’s an emotional/spiritual need, not as “primal” as the needs for food or water (you’ll die without them in a few days/weeks) but a need, nevertheless.
What you call it doesn’t matter, I’m not interested in being pedantic about it. Bottom line is she won’t be fundamentally fulfilled until it is achieved.
The InBetweener says
Katarina #35
“And Inbetween, are you saying that women are not supposed to expect/want marriage? That they can’t have both love and marriage. What a limiting belief that is!!! The “need” to be in a committed relationship (marriage) is inherent in most women (or even men). It’s perfectly okay to expect and want it, especially if she/they want to have kids.”
Nowhere in my comment did I say anything of that nature. My comment was based on what “humans” need vs. what they want. With that said, no one “needs” to be in a committed relationship but it is something that most, (if not all) people want. When the word need is used it is implied that it is something that can not be lived without – similar to food, water, air etc. But I concur, it is most definitely MORE THAN OKAY, for humans to want/covet marriage, children, a committed relationship etc.
Selena says
Katarina Phang #40:
“It’s my business, anyway and I prefer to keep it that way.”
That would be better accomplished if you weren’t writing about it on several internet sites.
I probably agree with you about settling. If one settles for a person, or relationship that doesn’t make them happy, then they only have themselves to blame for their unhappiness.
Dating multiple men is not manipulative. Doing so in the hopes of making someone you love jealous is. If you believe this is the “goddess way” then you and I have different concepts of what goddess means. I prefer the goddess who believes honesty is the way to happiness. This means every woman needs to be honest with herself. Why is she choosing this man? This relationship? If it is not fullfilling why is she persisting? There’s where the focus should be; not on a man who won’t commit, but on why she is fixated on that particular man.
We choose who we want as a partner. We choose whether or not to stay in a relationship after one has formed. It is so easy to blame someone else for not being/doing what we want them to, harder to be honest in why we are accepting less than we claim to want. Because…perhaps what we claim to want isn’t what we truly want?
That’s what I’m arguing here Katarina – Sophie’s boyfriend who likes their relationship “as is” isn’t the problem; it’s Sophie’s own ambivalence that is her problem. If she’s as unhappy as you and some of the other commenters believe, it’s time for her to move on. Her letter to EMK did not quite convince me that she’s that unhappy. Perhaps there is more explanation into why they are not officially sharing a home than she has chosen to divulge.
Not unlike you and your marriage.
Bill says
Generally men know within a few minutes of meeting a women if he wants to commit to her or not. This goes both ways.
If it has been three years there isn’t anything new or anything that would drive him to commit. Even if you were seeing other guys. When you start seeing other guys your actions is stronger than words that you are looking for a guy who will marry you.
Katarina says date other men. I say go to the gym exercise become fitter and more tone. He will somehow go wow I want to get married. Men are very simple and basic. If he won’t commit go and lose the flab and look more attractive physically.
Dating multiple men is what women dating advice professionals like to give as making yourself more attractive. Realistically it is your physical beauty that probably needs to be increased. Not to sound like a asshole.
I have heard my real good female friends asking why won’t he commit/why isn’t he into me. I won’t say this to my real good female friends but 90% of the time is because your not the best he can do another words your not that pretty. Go to the gym lose that flab. It will make the biggest difference.
Read what women have said after they became fitter/more tone/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=898532
Cat says
Bill (#44) “If he won’t commit go and lose the flab and look more attractive physically.”
There’s nothing in her letter to indicate she’s not physically attractive or that her boyfriend doesn’t find her attractive. And anytime someone says something that starts with “not to sound like an asshole” or “I’m not racist, but” they’re about to say something they know is offensive.
Amy says
Interesting bunch of crap, considering how many fat women are married and how many slim women are single.
alexia says
brilliant!
Kyra says
“… but 90% of the time is because your not the best he can do another words your not that pretty.”
This is the world we live in… a world where an intellectually lacking and grammatically challenged individual feels he has the ability to tell a woman what makes her insufficient and/or undesirable and what she should do to be “better.”
BL says
I get that being in your best form helps. I exercise 6 days a week and keep fit. I also work hard in my work life. Still no commitment. I was just told to move 2 hrs away from my family and job after 3 years of us dating. I couldn’t without any effort or engagement from him. Now he has told me he wants to move on, he waited for me and I couldn’t move in. That’s not respect and that’s not love. Good luck to him.
Diana says
Bill, I have seen some very fit people who were still butt ugly, both inside and out. If Sophie became more fit, assuming she’s not already, his desire to marry her would not increase. Sleep with her even more perhaps, although he might would have to watch out for competition. 😉
Sophie needs to stop agonizing herself over the glimmer of hope that her boyfriend will change because he won’t. When you consider how briefly we are here on earth, three years of your precious life is a sizable amount of time to give to another individual, and three years is enough. As long as his life with her continues smoothly along, there’s no reason for him to change. He gets her company, his sexual needs met, his independence, his putting other priorities before their relationship and so on.
Sophie has also made it clear to him that he’s worth waiting forever for, but is he really? She has put him on a pretty high pedestal from which he can only look down. She also shouldn’t base some of her thoughts and feelings on other people’s experiences. And even though she has also let him know how she would like to see their relationship move forward to living together, her actions are not supporting her words. He is also doing the same. She is straddling the fence, hoping that he will make the decision she wants, so that she won’t have to deal with making the painful decision that will lead to months of devastating heartbreak.
Sophie is living in fear. The best thing to do is for her to confront her fear and let her boyfriend know that while she loves him move than anything and would love to see a future with him beyond what they currently have, if he’s not in agreement with what she needs to continue to be happy in their relationship, then she understands, but she is leaving, and she wishes him well; that she loves herself too much to continue on this way, and she loves him too much to feel as if she’s pushed him into something he isn’t truly happy with. She then needs to have absolutely no communication or contact with him, unless he changes his mind. She doesn’t need to say that she’ll be dating other men, or anything like that. If he truly believes in all that he has shared with her, he will come after her. And if not, then Sophie will know that despite the pain, he was ultimately, not the one for her. And her life will begin anew.
Denise says
#45 Cat
Haha, Cat, that is very true! I had a friend that would start off with “Not to be mean…”, then proceed to say something mean.
Denise says
#39 Selena
Very well said from beginning to end….seems pretty simple. I think many people, some men included, like to complicate things to fit their purposes.
Lynn says
In response to Bill’s comments, I think we should consider that Sophie is probably already beautiful. She sounds pretty together in her letter, and her boyfriend does keep coming back for more, even though he declines a greater commitment. *All* women have got that feminine light, and it is just a matter of letting it come out to the surface to be seen. Sure it’s great and healthy to be fit, and to be as well-groomed as possible. But men who carry on relationships with women and then will not commit to them due to their looks are just lame.
Also, not to be a ballbuster, but please note:
your = possessive pronoun, i.e. “how was your date?”
you’re = contraction for “you are”
(chicks dig smart guys)
The InBetweener says
Karatina#43
“Inbetween, I’ll call it a need of a higher order as per Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. It’s an emotional/spiritual need, not as “primal” as the needs for food or water (you’ll die without them in a few days/weeks) but a need, nevertheless.
What you call it doesn’t matter, I’m not interested in being pedantic about it. Bottom line is she won’t be fundamentally fulfilled until it is achieved.”
Let’s TRY not to take relationship advice from Abraham Maslow and his so called “theory” of needs.
If 90% of happiness is not something a human could be satisfied with (in regards to another human being WANTING to be with you in which you have ABSOLUTELY no control over), there just MIGHT be a chance that the person in question will NEVER REALLY be satisfied. She could replace him with another human being to achieve her desired effect of “living together/marriage”, but even if that course of action were taken, there is no guarantee that she would be happy at least 90% of the time.
Hmm, maybe love has absolutely nothing to do with what she wants. Her very (EXACT?) words were, “I WANT MORE“. She also said; I truly believe that a lot of couples don’t have what we have, but a lot of those couples still have more commitment..”
Never leave sure for unsure. 🙁
Joe says
Telling Sophie to date other men is not intended to make her BF jealous, the point is to expose her to other men who may be willing to commit to her, because her BF is apparently not that guy.
Selena says
@#51
Nothing wrong with dating different people to find one who fits. Can be unpleasant to date someone who’s holding onto their previous relationship in some half-assed way though.
Julie says
I’m curious as to why you haven’t divorced if you’re dating other men. Are you still holding on to that previous relationship in hopes of reconciliation?
hunter says
” I wish my girlfriends would stay around for 3 years. ” I must be saying something wrong.
Joe says
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, I’m saying that should be the purpose of dating around, not making the current BF jealous.
Ruby says
Another problem I see is that Sophie has made it clear that she will wait – perhaps indefinitely – for her BF. I think it’s time to let him know that she WON’T wait much longer if he can’t step up. Otherwise, if she’s content to wait, what’s the incentive for him to change?
It really doesn’t matter if she dates other men or outright breaks up with him. The important thing is to let him know that that she won’t wait around forever.
Katarina Phang says
Yes Ruby, that’s the whole point. It doesn’t matter which method she uses, she just makes him know she’s taking care of her own needs first and foremost as women need to do to be happy in a relationship.
Sophie says
Funny that I just ended my 2 year-3month relationship, and it was pretty much the same situation as Sophie. We were happy together but we never see eye to eye on the future. He said he never wanted to get married, then he said he preferred living alone, finally it came out that he actually didn’t want to be a “life partner”. specifically, he doesn’t want any responsibility of a full time relationship. He only wants a girlfriend, conversation and “benefits”. He is 43, when do you think the Peter Pan will ever grow up? I am gonna go with never. There are many reasons/excuses why a man doesn’t want to marry or marry you – the problem is NONE OF THE REASONS ARE GOOD. I can be perfect for him on all levels and treat him with kindness and patience. But if he doesn’t want to man up, what choices do I have other than walking away?? Good luck to both of us.
Sophie
Doubt! says
Sophie,
You told him (perhaps not in so many words) that you want to be married, but he hasn’t asked you. I think that tells you everything.
Also, you might be 90% happy with things, but you sound 100% miserable with him not making a committment to you.
Evan sounds right when he says that after three years what new information do you learn? Well, in this case YOU learn something: he isn’t sure he wants to marry you. “Not sure” is both a no and a maybe. But it is not a yes!
The busy with work thing also sounds a bit cold-shoulderish. Stalling on moving in together, too. I think he’s emotionally unavailable to you. Do you want that? Sounds like you don’t.
Best of luck with your decision. My vote is that you leave, see what he does.
Oh and one more thing: I think the MAIN reason why more women don’t prod over the marriage thing is because deep down they fear that that means he only married her because she coaxed him into it. What do you think?
hunter says
Yes, Doubt!, only reason some men marry, is because if they don’t, someone else will……
hrgoddess says
Sophie, above all, you need to stay true to yourself. Don’t try to sugar coat it by trying to reason with yourself. People need what they need and want what they want. My best advice would be to to sit down with him and have a heart to heart about needs vs. wants. Tell him where your heart is, tell him what your concerns are and see how he responds. No need to play games. Honor the man and honor your love for him. If he doesn’t know what he wants then you have two choices – wait around for as long as your willing to wait, or walk away hoping that he will follow. It’s true that sometimes a person does not realize what they have until they’ve lost it. If you do walk away, make sure that you are commited to that decision and the results. Don’t do it just to test him, because if he doesn’t follow – you need to be prepared to face and live with the consequences. Follow your heart, and good luck!
Jessica says
WOW!!! So many interesting comments here! And a lot of good advice, but I’m not so sure that the real issue has yet to be addressed.
Sophie’s dilemma is that she deeply loves and cares for her boyfriend and she wants a secure agreement between herself and him (i.e., marriage) and she’s said that she is willing to do what it takes to spend the rest of her life with him. This is what women really mean when they say they’ll wait for him until he’s ready.
Yes, Sophie is looking for confirmation that she is doing the right thing and if she’s not she wants to be corrected. I feel like that is one of the reasons, not the primary, but one of the reasons that she wrote to EMK.
I believe her primary reason for her letter is to understand how to spend the rest of her life with him. She wants to know how she can make him realize that he truly wants to be with her or that a lifetime together isn’t meant for the two of them.
The widely held dispute between waiting patiently while not applying pressure vs. always keeping your options open and moving on if two individuals are not on the same page at the given moment in time is a source of confusion for many women.
Ultimately, Sophie wants to do whichever will allow her to be with him in a committed relationship. If she has to wait another year or two for him, she would if it meant lasting love and committment. If she has to tell him that she’ll move on (even though it would be with difficulty) if he can’t grant her security in the form of a committed relationship for him to realize that he doesn’t want to lose her, she’d do it.
But the problem lies in that we don’t know what’s going to happen. We can’t predict the future.
The truth of the matter is that both have their pros and cons.
– Waiting patiently does allow a stronger foundation for deep, lasting love and it does allow him to truly understand how he feels about her. It builds trust and ultimately a stronger emotional bond.
– However, many men fall in love while in the absence of a woman. Her absence makes him realize and understand how much happier he is in her prescence.
– But waiting patiently also provides no incentive for him to really focus on the relationship and really contemplate his true feelings.
– While moving on, is not only heart wrenching but it takes courage and discipline and it might not end up the way a woman hopes. But she must realize that when one door closes another better door opens. Easier said than done, I know. But the difficulty of the situation doesn’t make it not true.
My advice to Sophie is to not move in with her boyfriend. She shouldn’t start dating other men either. She should take some time to herself, maybe two weeks to a month to really look deep inside herself and focus on what she truly wants. If she truly wants marriage, there’s nothing wrong with that. Anthropologists have revealed that committment is biologically programmed within us and other species as well. (Check out Helen Fisher’s work. She’s amazing.) But if she’s so in love with her boyfriend and is willing to sacrifice marriage, that’s her decision as well. Plenty of couples that aren’t married remain together forever and are happier than couples who are bound by marriage. But again, we cant guarantee any one outcome, because we simply can’t predict the future. Sophie, you need to look inside yourself, only you know the answer. I truly wish you luck and happiness, whether with this boyfriend or the next.
hrgoddess says
@Jessica – 61
Great response!
Lance says
Agree with Honey and others above, age makes a difference. If they’re in their 20’s, I think they *at least* need to complete their 20’s before getting married, which could mean several more years hence. It’s completely irrational to think that married is the end-all be-all of a relationaship, and that if they don’t get married now even though the relationship is perfectly healthy, you have to break it off. Why? Just keep doing what you’re doing. You have the rest of your life to be married and live under the same roof, if that’s indeed in the cards.
Sophie (OP) says
Thank you all for you comments and input.
I actually do agree with Evan’s advice to a point (I do think that every relationship and guy is different), but at the same time, I probably will be that ‘stupid’ girl who still waits. I will reach my threshold eventually but I haven’t yet.
Selena actually nailed how I feel about a lot of it. The 10% of unhappiness comes from the lack of forward progress. I know that that percentage should be weighted because it could potentially collapse the whole relationship, but I really am so happy when I’m not thinking of that, and I’m a really good avoider…
Maybe it’s not the healthiest way to go on in a relationship, but I am happy and I truly do believe that he will just get to that point. Maybe I am being foolish, but I know that he does really love me and care for me and I know I am one of the most important people in his life. None of this comes easily for him. I know I can be too understanding sometimes, but I’d rather be foolish down the road than end something that I don’t want to ever end. If that makes me stupid then I am stupid! I don’t know what the future holds, but I know my present is happy, even if she is living in ignorant bliss…
Tade says
You sound like someone trying to convince herself it is ok. Not like someone who believes it. Read your comment again and tell me you are not trying to convince yourself. I’ve been where you are. The moment you break up that same guy will be married to the next lady in meets in less than a year. Time for you to move on.
Selena says
Sophie #64
Thanks for writing back in. I wish things could be more clear for you, but there is nothing ‘stupid’ about enjoying the present. The future has a way of taking care of itself. 🙂
Denise says
Sophie, within all your conversations with him, has he indicated that he does see a future with you? Men will stay with women they know they will not end being with forever–they won’t volunteer the information that’s what they are doing, but if they are asked the question, they very well may come clean. It would be pretty low character of a man to lie straight out to the woman he’s intimately involved with, and this man doesn’t sound like he’s of low character.
The other comments above apply too. We don’t know what age you two are and we don’t know what your ultimate goal is.
I think it’s also important to accept that wanting more security in a relationship, i.e. marriage, is NOT a bad thing and you are not a stupid woman to want that.
Sophie (OP) says
He has said that he thinks he wants a future with me but he doesn’t know when it’ll actually happen, and, yes, that does worry me. I am 31 and he’s 30 so we’re not exactly spring chickens anymore!
I know I’m not being unreasonable wanting more commitment. I am waiting and hoping that it doesn’t come back to bite me in the butt some day, but I do believe that he (and what we have together) is worth the wait and that the gamble is big but the payoff is bigger.
@Jessica, that really was well said. Thank you.
Bill says
@Sophie (#67)
Thanks for the clarification-very helpful.
If, at 30, he says he thinks he wants a future with you, but doesn’t know when it’ll happen, then he’s given you his answer. He didn’t say he didn’t know “if” it’ll happen, just when.
As a man in his forties who, in his 30’s, avoided marriage like the plague, I understand what he’s saying. He hasn’t resolved what “being married” looks like.
Does he have a great, stable career? Perhaps he’s concerned about his ability to provide. He may also be smart enough to realize he doesn’t know enough about life/himself to commit (not saying this is true, just may be a thought he has). If this is the case, then he’s feeling a lot of responsibility towards you-he may be concerned about not screwing up your life. He may take proposing marriage as a VERY serious commitment, one that takes LOTS of forethought.
Men often see this very differently than women – hence this blog. Most guys I knew in their 20’s and 30’s either didn’t want to get married or were ambivalent – some knew the wanted to be married. Compare that to most women I’ve known wanted to be married, and only one or two were indifferent to it.
Do you both want children? Have you discussed this at length? (I don’t recall reading it in your letter-it may be there and I’ve forgotten). If you both want children, then this is a great subject for commitment. See other articles from EMK about having kids. You’re already post-prime for getting pregnant, though still in very viable years. As you approach 40, those odds really drop (and please, don’t anyone jump on this advice-it’s a real concern, backed by real research that it’s harder for couples to conceive as they age…our the 30’s aren’t our 20’s). My point being that he may not have considered the concerns about having kids.
Have you explained to him, in a non-confrontational (i.e. non-demanding) way, that being married is important to you, and why. I know I was rather dense about it until some lengthy and in-depth discussions with my GF. She helped me develop a new perspective on marriage – so even us old dogs can learn new tricks given the right circumstances/presentation/paradigm.
Denise says
Sophie (OP), I think you’ll really need to step back and contemplate what it is that you really want and then be prepared to take action–even though that action may be hard. You’ve been with this man a long time and he’s not very sure in his ability or willingness to commit to you–obviously.
I like Bill’s last post, including his comments on childbearing at an older age. I do think your approach needs to come from YOUR point of view and what YOU want–NOT what HE is unwilling or unable to do, for whatever his reasons. IMO, it’s perfectly reasonable to express what you want and why it’s important to you (if you haven’t multiple times already), and then say that he has every right to feel the way he feels and to take his time, but he can’t have you all to himself while he is doing that. I would not say a lot of words and I wouldn’t put forward an ultimatum. Hear what he has to say, really listen to what he has to say. Then I would suggest separating yourself from him for a little bit…let things sink in on BOTH sides. Be patient, let HIM come to YOU…men don’t process as quickly as we do (and it’s maddening! :). This will be difficult for sure…but that doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do.
Coming from a woman who is older, TIME is something that is so precious. You can’t buy it, you can’t trade for it, you can’t gather it, you can’t save it–it’s very limited commodity.
Good luck Sophie! You sound like an awesome, mature woman!
C. says
This is a tough call I think. I’m 31 also and I’ve never cohabitated with a boyfriend. My longest relationship went 4 years and never got to that stage mostly because he was afraid. I do like my freedom but I understand the longing for a stable “home life” with the one you love, so I think my next relationship to last a couple years I’m going to want that element.
That said, I have friends who just moved in together after being in a relationship for 7 years. I have another pair of friends who have moved in together after 4 years and just got married after 10 years (she finally gave an ultimatum). So, I guess some people come around after awhile. But who knows if anyone will last, and there is a strong possibility that both pairs of my friends I mentioned will have trouble starting a family, as they are all mid-to late 30s.
I think how strongly you want children is the main question here, because if you don’t want them then I don’t think there’s any reason to rush into cohabitation/marriage if you are already mostly happy with how things are.
RosiePosie says
Sophie, I can see you recognize and value the relationship you already have, yet obviously you are unhappy with the lack of forward progress (which is why you have posted to the blog). That’s perfectly understandable.
Obviously, you are looking for commitment or — because you say he’s already made improvements — some reassurance that you are not waiting for a future that will never come.
When I read posts like these, I am reminded of the advice I frequently read (often from male relationship experts like EMK) that when a man decides that a particular woman is “The One”, there is no obstacle too great, and no timing problem or financial issues that can’t be accommodated. Poor people make commitments to each other all the time. People get married while one or both are seeking higher education. Or are in long-distance relationships, etc etc.
In other words, they make it work.
You are not saying that any of these things is preventing your boyfriend from committing. But women are very self-sacrificing with relationships, while men tend to be more self-oriented. If my partner said to me (randomly) that it would make him happy if I wore a green shirt every Tuesday until 2011, I would do it…No matter how unusual… because I know he’d be happy that I did. Your boyfriend knows that some sort of sign of deeper commitment (e.g. moving in together, or a ring) would make you happy … but he cannot do it for you. That says something to me. This may be a man you cannot rely on to put your needs ahead of his, or in future to make you happy or attend to your needs.
I know wearing-a-green-shirt-on-Tuesdays is trivial compared to making a life-long commitment, but the point is that he needs to step up to reassure you, because that is what YOU want. Sorry, but it seems like he cannot, so you may be best to move on.
Foolingmyself says
I can totally relate to where Sophie is coming from. Being a woman who has dated a man for 5 years-LDR, in my mid 40’s, dating a man in his mid-50’s, I have finally decided, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. IF a man wants to be with you, he will move heaven and earth to do so. If you are not happy in the relationship (and I can’t say I am/was not happy), but without the commitment to back it up, something that shows he is committed to you, you must move on. It hurts like hell. But if your needs are not getting met, and you’re not feeling secure, what’s the point? Time is precious, as we start getting older, even more so. We may love these men with all our hearts, but if our hearts are not feeling safe and secure, its time to move on. If they love you (enough), they will come after you (us) and give us what will make us happy as well. Just my two cents.
J says
Evan, I have been reading mails for a long time now and I have never felt the need to respond to anything, other than your survey a few days back. You know, what all this proves?
That you can do whatever you think needs to be done but it all boils down to destiny. You will be with the person you are meant to be, when you are meant to be.
According to all the rules put forward by many, she did everything right, not putting pressure, being patient blah blah blah.. But it still didn’t work, did it? She is being advised to tighten the screws(even though nobody said it the exact same way but that’s what it boils down to).
I believe that what is meant to be will be. You can be most obnoxious, most irritating, ugly as hell, it doesn’t matter. You will be with the person you are meant to be, when you are meant to be. Maybe my Hindu background has something to do with it, but that is what I believe in.
Evan Marc Katz says
@J – You can believe in destiny. I believe in using best practices.
So if you do everything right and it STILL doesn’t work, that doesn’t mean that the next time, you shouldn’t do the EXACT same thing.
Imagine a baseball player who takes a perfect swing, hits it to deep center field, and the center fielder catches the ball before it goes over the fence. The batter came six inches from a home run. Instead he got out.
Does this mean he should quit baseball? Does this mean that he should re-tool his swing? Not at all.
All it means is that the next time the batter gets up, he should take the exact same swing and trust that a certain percentage of the time, it will result in a home run.
This isn’t destiny. You make your own luck with your optimism, your effort, and your ability to persevere.
Brittney says
Why is there the disclaimer that 3years is plenty long enough (UNLESS YOU’RE UNDER 25)? I have been with my boyfriend for 3 years and we’re under 25. I want to move in together and he’s not ready, just like Sophie’s situation.
How does our age factor into the situation though? I would actually argue the opposite. It is rarer for a couple our age to stay togetehr this long. So shouldn’t that mean more in terms of wanting a commitment?
Ange says
Wow, this is so similar to my situation. And I think I know the answer, I’m just too scared to face it.
My partner and I have been dating for 3 years. We’re both 30, and have been living together for 1.5yrs. He is shortly being posted overseas (for work) for 2 years. He loves me and wants me to come with him.
But he isn’t sure about marriage and about marrying me (“oh maybe I would like to get married in like 5 years time”… by which time we would have been dating for 8 years?!? )
If I don’t tell him thats not good enough, I stay in the relationship and move country with him. He keeps a great relationship, pursues his professional career, and gets to put off commitment. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
And me? I give up my great job, my friends and move country hoping and hoping that suddenly he’s going to wake up and realize he’s ready to commit? Really?? Who am I fooling? Evan is right, he’s collected all the information he needs, why am I still under assessment/probation?
Sophie, I totally get what you’re saying about just sticking it out coz everything else about the relationship is going well. I’m terrified to call my relationship off. He’s a fantastic guy and I have no doubt he loves me. But our future goals just don’t match up. You have to set a timeline, I think. Otherwise you’ll find yourself in 5 years time hearing the same overplayed line. Inability to commit is a personality flaw to take into account for compatibility as much as anything else.
Don’t avoid a difficult decision just because it is difficult and you’re scared of being alone. That’s what I’ve been doing.
Mary says
Thank you all for this insight! Everything is so much clearer, I didnt even have to ask my question, you guys helped me solve it 🙂
Just remember, life is short, and we are only here for so long…
I hope everyone finds their happiness…
🙂
BeenThere says
Get out now. You are trading your integrity, your spirit, and your self esteem for a person who will not ever commit to you. If he were going to, he would have done so by now. He is using you to fill in the blanks. You are, or were, probably a joyful person, with a lot to offer. Do not waste yourself on someone who is not deserving of you. There is no need to be angry, or vindictive. Just understand that you deserve someone who shares your ideals, shares what you want from a relationship, and wants to build a life with you. You can spend years waiting for things to change, and they won’t, if you stay where you are, hoping every day that things will get better.
Krystal says
This is true. Life is short, you are only here for so long. Don’t waste your child-bearing years on someone who will not commit to you. You will regret it the longer you stay in this relationship. Best of luck to you! 🙂
Sue says
Wow! That response could almost have been written for me. I’m 40, intelligent, loving, attractive, successful…. But I’ve been hanging on to a guy for over 4 years who won’t even give me keys to his apartment (let alone talk marriage with me), I’ve been waiting in a dark alley for him to get home from work so he can ALLOW me entry. There was once a proposal but after 6 months without a ring being produced he told me to “buy my own”. He’s done so many hurtful things 🙁 After reading your response, I’ve told him I can’t live one more second in this wishy-washy non-committed farce and I need to get an answer about our future from him. I want some form of direction or closure so I can move on with my life. It’s true, after 3 years there’s really nothing more he’s going to learn about me that would make or break the relationship. It’s up to me now to be strong and stand up for what I want.
PositiveEnergy says
Great comments everyone, including Evan’s advice! When it comes to romantic partners you may deem the one you are with as “worth waiting for”, but the bottom line is you have to be in the same place in your life as eachother (within a reasonable time period) or that particular relationship is just not right for you. Yes, different people get to that commitment phase at different times so you have to give some lee-way for the other person to come around, but 3 years with no solid plan of a future together is time enough. This man might mostly make you happy, but he is clearly not in the same place in his life as you are and I think you should find someone who is. There is definitely someone else out there who is “worth waiting for” and IS as commitment-minded as you are. It’s a tough turning point as I understand how you would not want to throw away the past 3 years you’ve built with this man, but if you don’t say goodbye you may build another 3 years of resentment with him, meanwhile passing by the opportunity to build a life with someone else who is just as ripe and ready for love and commitment as you are. Breaking up hurts badly, but it’s worth the months of suffering in order to open the door to the right relationship. Which brings me to the point that there is no point in the ultimatum or the “seeing other people” while he makes a decision. Just close the door to that relationship completely, suffer for a time in order to heal that wound, then open the door to a fresh start and never look back. If your heart is open to meeting someone who wants the same things as you and compliments you well then you will!…and you will have an even deeper and more satisfying relationship with that person than you do with this man you are with now…Best of luck with you decision.
Krystal says
@Positiveenergy: Love it! Thank you. I agree, I was in a three year relationship and had to let go because his true colors came out. He lied about marriage and having a real commitment, so I was done. It took a year for me to get over him. It as painful, but that was worth the wait of finding myself and getting into another relationship. It doesn’t take long to find someone else worth your time and that won’t play these games.
@EMK, thanks for your awesome advice!
Jennifer says
Well said!!! I just broke up with my 3 year relationship with a man I loved because of empty promises and made me selfish for wanting to have a deeper intimate connection and commitment.. you cannot buy time. Love yourself and hold true to your value and outlook on life .. no one can take that away from you . You create the life you want . If a man says he truly loves you and sees a future with you why is it so hard to at least put a ring on it .. especially after three years of being together through good and bad.
Fusee says
Discussions on timing for sex and marriage are my favorites! Ever!
This thread is quite old but I’m glad it came back from the archives because I had not run into it before.
I agree very much with Evan’s advice regarding the early stages of dating, and how important it is to allow trust, friendship, and love to develop and to get to know one another well first. And it takes time. I personally disagree with the timeline of three years (at 33 years old, I allow less time for the courtship as I have already explained in other threads), but my main point for this post is not the actual timeline but how the timeline is communicated. Or how it is NOT communicated for that matter.
Whatever your timeline is, I strongly believe that it should be communicated with appropriate advance notice. Playing it cool, being patient, hoping that he is actively figuring things out is cute, but ineffective if he is not self-aware and purposeful. And most men are not. Most men enjoy the status quo. Most men do not commit to more than they are asked to. Yes, Evan – and some other commenters – were purposeful, which allowed their girlfriends to remain “cool” since they knew their men were working hard on it, but such men are the exception to the rule. Most men need encouragements to contemplate their relationship goals and face their commitment fears. Bill admitted this tendency:
Bill #68: “Have you explained to him, in a non-confrontational (i.e. non-demanding) way, that being married is important to you, and why. I know I was rather dense about it until some lengthy and in-depth discussions with my GF. She helped me develop a new perspective on marriage — so even us old dogs can learn new tricks given the right circumstances/presentation/paradigm.”
At “prefered deadline minus 6 months to one year” (end of second year if on a three-year timeline, at the 12 month-mark if on a 18-months timeline, etc), an explanation along these lines: “Hey darling, I love you very much and I’m happy about the relationship we have created so far. I would like you to know that I desire to progress towards marriage at some point in the near future. I would like you to think about your relationship goals, and how I fit into them so that we can discuss the possibility of marriage before we reach our (third, 18 months) anniversary.” will be more effective than simply walking away at the deadline, hoping for him to run after you. If he has not yet SERIOUSLY thought about his relationship goals and/or if he suffers from some unaddressed commitment fears, he will need more assistance to become mindful of them and possibly get through them. You are the only one able to trigger a desire to address them but even if he does want to address them, time will be needed. It’s worth it to communicate early and give enough time to work on it before your timeline or your patience runs out. Waiting and possibly walking away might result in the waste of a good relationship and of a good man.
But if such conversations to not make him step up and work on your questions or if you learn that your life goals do not match, then you know what you have to do. As Ange said:
Ange #76: “Inability to commit is a personality flaw to take into account for compatibility as much as anything else.”
Vicki K says
I’m with those who advise you to stop being patient. But I don’t see it as giving him an ultimatum. For me it’s about getting clear about what your needs are.
Your focus in your letter is largely on him – what he wants, what he’s got going on, what he let you do or doesn’t want to do. What do you want? What is it you are hoping to create? Is this man going to help you co-create that?
It sounds like the answer is no. After three years, he should know one way or another. He may fear losing you or fear being alone, and so he’s stringing you along, but it’s not going to help you create what you need.
You need to value yourself more than that. What’s best for him may be to not be married for a while. What’s best for you, from what you find yourself longing for, is to create that family with someone and have that deeper commitment.
If he can’t step up to the plate, then he should lose you. You’re worth a hell of a lot more. You’re worth a man who can’t wait to start his life with you.
When you find it with someone, you’ll wonder how you ever came to see anything less as ‘loving’.
sarah says
Bill 44. Your advice is really to go to the gym and become fitter and more toned, to make him marry her?
I actually laughed out loud when I read that! Are you a teenager?!
Dana says
Evan’s a hypocrite. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve commented on a relationship not moving fast and they say a crappy comment like his-3 years isn’t too long to wait EXCEPT Evan only waited 14 months. If he wanted to be with her, 3 years was enough time to decide. Get out now!
Karl R says
Dana said: (#84)
“they say a crappy comment like his-3 years isn’t too long to wait”
Evan told Sophie that 3 years was long enough to wait for a proposal. (I believe Evan has previously stated that 3 years is not too long to wait for marriage.) Evan also told Sophie to leave if her boyfriend was unwilling to propose.
Waiting 2 years to propose and an extra year to get married is rather normal. (I proposed around 19 months and got married around 39 months.) But this should not be a fixed number. It must depend a lot upon circumstances. I don’t care if a couple has been dating for 7 years … if they started dating at age 13, then 20 is still too young (and too soon) for them to get married.
Dana said: (#84)
“I can’t tell you how many times I’ve commented on a relationship not moving fast”
I’m not going to search through the blog looking for where you mentioned it. If you want to link to your previous comments, I’ll take a look at the specifics surrounding your comments (and any direct responses).
Karen thompson says
hello
I just read your story and I am going through the same thing. We have been going together for 2 years and I don’t pressure him at all. If he brings it up I’ll just smile and comment but nit too much like timelines. When I was drunk one night I gave him an ultimatum of 3 years. I told him that I didn’t mean that and that when be is ready that’s fine. I mean if your ready and he’s not I would leave cause guys are not stupid cause they know that some women r not gonna wait forever. I think he should have done something by now.you could say something like we have been going out for 3 years and I would like to move forward with our relationship. But because you r hesitating I think that we should part ways for now. Good luck
Tee says
I read every single post on here, and most of you are right. At the end of a day you can be the most beautiful, patient, loving, educated, well put together woman but if a man isnt ready he just wont marry you. Its simple. I just recently ended a 3 year relationship..and by recently I mean 2 weeks ago. The expression it hurts like hell is an understatement. But, like Evan said 3 years is plenty of time to know if you want to marry that person. I completely understand where Sophie is coming from. Ive been there with my ex. If I just live him selflessly and give him timr in return he’ll respect me for it and marry me. I was wrong. At 2 years we had the talk and we fell apart. He kept saying he doesnt know if he wants to marry and he needs space and how his lost and blah blah every excuse you can think of. So what did I do? I left him. 2 days went by I found a letter under my door saying its not me its him and his sorry and how im such an amazing person but he just doesnt deserve me. Sure I cried but, if thats whst he wanted I sure wasnt going to beg for him back. The week after he was begging me to forgive him. That he was under stress and didnt mean it. So I said, do you know what you want now? Yes ! You and all of you. Will you propose when were both ready? Yes! Ok so I took my time but eventually we were super happy. So I thought. A year went by, to only repeat what happened a year ago. You fooled me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. I trully believe in the no contact rule. Im finding myself again. I have values, one day someone will value them with me.
Kate says
I’m so sorry. I had the same thing happen- he told he he would propose at the end of 2013
He didn’t.
Kate says
You nailed it Evan. 2 months ago I broke up with my boyfriend of 3.5 years… yes, I stuck around for an extra 6 months because he said he would propose and I believed him. He didn’t.
Kate says
Evan!!! I’m engaged to my current man. I’m very happy. Your advice was very valuable and I recommend you to everyone 🙂
Christine says
I am finding that the more I come on to this site and read the letters and comments, the more I find myself understanding what it is I want from a relationship. And also, the strength to make changes to have it. I think Evan’s description of “just moving deck chairs around the Titantic” rang a little too true for me right now.
For the last 10 months I have been dating a man who I have known for 21 years. He is 56 and I am 51. One would think we would have it all figured out by now. We dated some years ago, stayed very good friends after. We each went about our lives after realizing we couldn’t be what we wanted years ago, but we maintained communication through the years as friends. We each dated, married, divorced others during that time.
Well, now we are both single again, and we reconnected 10 months ago and started seeing each other again. We spend time together one or two nights a week. Gone on several weekend trips together, communicate in someway every day. We have fun and enjoy each other quite a bit. We love each other and tell each other so.
But…
We are not progressing past where we have been since about 2 months in to seeing each other again. There have been some conversations, each of us saying we don’t want to jump into living together or even marriage. He has told me that he feels that we are moving forward, albeit slowly, but he feels momentum. I in turn do not feel that same momentum. The other night we talked quite a bit and I feel he was very honest with me on what he wants and doesn’t want right now. He loves me, wants to spend time with me, doesn’t want to lose me, but realizes that if he doesn’t make some sort of more fluid forward motion he is risking just that. He also explained how he is still smarting from a very messy divorce over the past few years and all the damage that caused to him financially and also with his relationship with his adult children. he told me he realizes that he does want more for us as a couple, but he is afraid to make more of a commitment right now. And that he feels that he shouldn’t be afraid and that he needs to do something. Yet he is afraid and not really doing anything.
Well, he told me. And I have to realize that what I want right now and what he is willing to give are not the same thing. So , I have decided that I really need to step away some. I am not giving up on him. I am not saying I will not see him and that I will avoid him. I am not completely walking away from this man that I have known for so long, but what I am doing is giving each of us a little more space. Give myself a chance to not try so hard to force something to be more right now, and maybe give him a chance to follow me when he realizes he really will lose me if he doesn’t make the effort.
If he wants to truly be with me, he will follow. He will follow me now, just as easily as he would 3 months, 6 months, or a year from now…or not. What I realize is that if I don’t make some change then I will be in this exact same place with him months, even years from now. I don’t want to be here then. I want more from this man, and if he is unable to give it, then so be it. Right now I have to listen and pay attention to what he told me, because he did tell me.
Tade says
So I had a boyfriend for 6yrs started dating at age 22. I gave him the ultimatum but he didn’t meet it. So I cut him off. 2 months after the breakup he meets someone else and 9months of dating he gives her a ring. I’m still glad I cut him off because it just means he was never going to commit to me because I made him comfortable as we were. I was very predictable to him. Nothing new and exciting about it anymore for both of us. My advice will be for you cut him off on time before you get to six years. You pretty much not what he wants to get married too. A guy knows if he wants to commit to you within the first 6month.
Lin says
EXACT same story here. He is also married. But don’t assume things about yourself. Me I asked him upfront in a letter recently, I always thought I was not enough. He stills feel “passion” for me and likes me alot, but in his mind he was never going to marry me bc he was not happy with the relationship in general… So, just close the chapter and wish him and above all yourself well
Krystal says
@Tade: Wow! You have dodged a bullet and didn’t waste anymore time! Good for you! 🙂
Saffy101 says
A very interesting article but like other readers I think the age of the couple makes a difference to timescale for many reasons.
What if this couple were in their 50s as I am and had been dating for over a year. A seemingly perfect relationship, all possible boxes ticked. However we live a distance apart, so although we usually see each other 2 to 3 times a week it takes a bit of travelling and we are both busy. When he needs me for something I stay for a length of time but he is in no rush for us to live together, suggesting waiting another 2 years…..why? He has been married for 20 years followed by living with a partner before he met me.
I feel that at our age…what exactly are we waiting for?
It is easy to find that “he” has everything he requires without any commitment, so why would he bother and I have a feeling that this is what I have unwittingly done whilst trying to make him feel wanted and loved!
Angel says
what a very interesting post! not sure how old it is, but I felt compelled to pitch in.
first let me say something about this silly timeline/ultimatum business many people here seem to buy in and live by, I’ve seen 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, and anywhere in between, the question I have to ask is, DO you truly believe, that you personally have the capacity to really know your partner so thoroughly over this period of time, that you can safely and reasonably accurately predict the happiness of yourself, and by extension the happiness of your children for the next say, 20 years? do you fully understand his core beliefs? do you truly understand his values? do you comprehend the reasons behind his decisions and the motivations behind his actions? do you truly understand what makes him happy? what makes him feels fulfilled? what makes him feels content? accomplished? actualized? and please consider these questions very carefully, because if you are one of those people who aims to set a timeline for marriage instead of aiming for true understanding of the fundamentals of a lasting relationship, then you might not like the answers you find here:
let’s perform a logic test, let’s start from the negative, say that you don’t know the answer to most of the questions I’ve asked above, and I suspect most people in the dating pool don’t, then I must ask, how would you really know that his answers to these questions (presuming that he is actually self aware enough to know the answers to these questions in the first place) are not going to conflict with your own core beliefs? and if such conflicts arise after both of you have became more aware of who you are through time and life, do you believe such conflicts will sustain your marriage, or undermine it? and if such conflicts serves to undermine your marriage and you end up having children together, do you believe these conflicts will be of any benefit to the children you raise? and if such conflicts become so severe that you end up having to divorce with children in the tow, do you believe it would be a happy situation for the children? so the logic in this set of arguments is really pretty simple, if you don’t know the answer to these very fundamental questions, it means you don’t really know your partner well enough, and if that’s the case, even if you got married, you run the serious risk of having a marriage that will not last, or worse, a marriage that will eventually cause harm to the children.
let’s run the same logic test again from the positive side, let’s say that of the questions I’ve asked in the beginning, you believe you know the answer to most of them, well that’s great, because if you did, you don’t need ANYBODY, to give you advice, if the guy says he’s not ready for you to move in, or he’s not ready to get married, or he didn’t want to get married, or he needs freedom or alone time or whatever, you would know EXACTLY why he’s making that decision, and unless you have a double digit IQ, knowing the precise reasons behind his decisions, you would also know exactly what to do in order to give yourself the satisfaction you seek in life.
Let’s do a recap, if after knowing your guy for 1 year, or 2 years, or 3 years and you still don’t know the answer to the questions I posed, like our OP for example (no offense meant), then you lack the very tools necessary to even reasonably predict your own happiness down the road after marriage, so I must ask, what gives you the right to demand an ultimatum? what gives you the right to say that 1 year, or 2 years, or 3 years, is enough to know someone to the point where you need, or could’t get, no more information? and if that’s the case with you, have you asked yourself where he stands in this whole equation? what gives you the right to say that he is in the wrong for not being ready when in fact, neither are you?
what I’ve noticed with many people that I see, is that they easily become satisfied with the status quo, and they don’t bother to ask the really hard questions, of themselves, and of others, and naturally as a result, they ultimately become victims of their own lack of knowledge and insight. there is such a thing as a honeymoon period, a period when you are in love, and your emotions clouds over your ability to analyze logically, that period is accepted to be 18-24 months, for many, it is only AFTER that period has passed, that you start to notice your differences, that your rose colored glasses start to come off, that you can truly start to see the long term implications of your differences, and that discovery process in itself, takes time. so ask yourself, is 3 years really enough to know a person with whom you are contemplating spending 30-50 years together with? Is a time line/ultimatum even the right approach when you don’t even have half the answers?
so to the OP, this is my best suggestion, start asking the hard questions, to him, to yourself, because when you know the answers to those questions, you would be ready to take actions without anyone telling you what you should do.
In_doubt says
I don’t know what to say after reading this. First of all, I knew how it feels being in Sophie’s shoes. I felt like it’s me in the situation where I don’t even know how to decide even until now. It’s been almost 5yrs.yet I’m still in a relationship where I know he do loves & cares for me that much, I do love him too in a way that I almost forgot that it’s been ages that I’ve been waiting for him to marry me. The fact that we’re in a long distance relationship, it makes me wonder if what am I doing is right or wrong. I’m single never been married & no kids, he was divorced & got 5kids in his past marriage & ex gf. I’m on my 30’s he’s on his 40’s. It’s been my dream to get married, settle down & have a family I can call my own… but I’m a woman & I got tired now. Finances & his work are always been the main reasons… but what about me? I wanna run away & make my own life but I’m just too stupid enough to still hope of something which I don’t know when will gonna happen…
Kim says
So Evan, when did you know for sure your wife was the one you want to marry? my boyfriend and I are dating 8 months now and I know I want to marry him but he is not sure yet. I am trying to be patient and cool about it but I wonder how much time to give him before I start decreasing level of commitment. what about another 4 months?
Evan Marc Katz says
I proposed in 16. Married in 22. I didn’t “know” until AFTER we were married for six months.
Kim says
Thank you! Evan. I understand I need to be more patient and continue to strengthen the bonds between my boyfriend and I but I am also 34 now (I was married once, no kid. we both want kids). (32 never married. I am his longest relationship. Most of his past relationships didn’t last more than 4 months because he knew they were not right. However, with me, he knows it is not wrong but he is not sure if it is right. He said most days he felt great about us and can be positive about us getting married but some days he is not so sure. We broke up last year after 3 months of dating because he felt he should make a decision about marriage and he got really confused. Then he asked me to give him another chance after 2 months but I was dating someone else already. We both later realized we had something great and we were very compatible and should just relax and let our relationship grow so we got back together after 7 months being apart. I also took responsibility of being fearful last time to give my entire heart to him last time. This time, we both tell each other we love each other and I know he is not a very verbal person but he has been really opened and tell me he loves me everyday. My boyfriend is very analytical and he likes to focus on the differences such as I am more multicultural but he grown up in the small town. However, he forgot he is 32 years old (he moved away from home since he was 18) and living in Los Angeles for a few years now. How can I help him focus more on the positive and our similarities so he can overcome his fears and doubts overtimes? (we both have a MBA, graduated from the same college, the same religion, have the same financial goal and value in life, we have fun together, can talk about both silly things and intellectual things). Thank you again! Evan
Lisa says
I agree with Evan and I think the only thing that would change is if this was a very young couple say 25 or so. In that age range I could understand her willingness to wait or his hesitancy, although she is still entitled to move on. But based on my reading and the fact that she says he has been in two other two year long relationships I doubt that. She needs to move on. This mans not even willing to take the step of moving in and she’s making excuses for him. Don’t waste your time. He won’t change. It’s hard to move I’m from something you are comfortable with. But it’s better to move on and be alone then waste your time here. Either he does not want to marry and committ and never will to anyone or you are not the person he wants to do that with and he may not realize that. That’s hard to swallow. But it’s best for both of you.
Ed says
Hi guy’s,
Most of what you have to say sounds like a load oi f horse shit.
If you pressure a man to get married when he’s not ready to, you reap what you sow.
I’m speaking from personal experience when I say that I wasn’t ready for marriage until 5 years after I tied the knot. I know I really damaged my wife’s self esteem.
Yhats enough for now
NG says
This is so true. I myself find myself in a situation similar to hers. Thank you for this helpful advice Evan.
Dave says
See I am in the position opposite of Sophie:
My gf and I both want to be married. We had a very rough first year and a half, with very emotional blow ups and almost walked away several times. Then she moved in eight months ago after threatening to leave because at the time she was 36 and needed to see I was committed. I thought we should be more stable before moving in but said ok, because I saw potential in us.
Two months later, last September began the talk about engagement. I was given an ultimatum that if we weren’t engaged by Christmas she was walking. I told her please no timelines or ultimatums given our unstable history. She said she wants a baby and to be married and there are many guys out there who would want to marry her if I did not. She threw tantrums with all night emotional outbursts.
I maintained that I love her and see a future but we need to get to a place of stability for me to want to propose and not do it because of fear or threats. I needed a few months where we focused on us, and didn’t talk about getting engaged that way. I knew what she wanted and if she gave me what I needed to get there, I would get there.
It is now April. While we have improved, she has threatened to leave every month or so when she felt the anxiety of waiting. It made me feel very uncomfortable and hasn’t helped us move further along but had the opposite impact.
It finally came to a head yesterday. In her mind I had a couple of weeks since our last blow up (not about marriage) when I could have suggested ring shopping. In my mind I have been getting to that feeling where I want to talk about it. I want it to be organic and natural and not forced and I was planning on being the one who brought it up soon. We had a trip to Europe planned and then to Seattle and during this time I thought we would be in a great place for us to move forward, actually go ring shopping, then propose soon.
So she hasn’t given me what I wanted and she hasn’t gotten what she wanted. I don’t want to lose her but I don’t see any way out of this cycle except for putting what I need to feel aside (I mean, shouldn’t this be a happy, warm and fuzzy occasion?). The biggest trouble with that is that instead of my heart telling me to propose, all of the conversations and threats around it have gotten in my head and I don’t know what my heart or gut are telling me anymore.
Kelly says
Wow. Thank you so much Evan. I literally just prayed about this exact situation this morning. I’m 40, divorced, have no children and completely in love with my boyfriend of 2 years. He is also divorced with a little girl and I am patient. Sophie said it perfectly for me. He is worth the wait but how long? And you answered that. I know our situation is different because we have both been married and we want to take it slow. I appreciate that. I also am ready to live together and he is not. I can be patient because he’s worth it but I worry about selling myself short. I’ll wait patiently 1 more year 🙂 he’s worth it. Thank you
Beau says
I feel like I am in the same boat. I love my boyfriend and we have been together for three years but the discussion about moving in has been ongoing for the last two years. I really want to have a place together and financially it would be better for both of us but I can feel that even though he says that we will he doesn’t want to. He comes up with excuses and changes his mind constantly. I decided to give him an ultimatum that we either move in by the end of the year or we call it quits. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life because I love him so much it feels like I’m stabbing myself in the heart by doing this but at the end of the day I can’t ignore what I want just to keep him happy.
Lexi says
Why pay for the milk if the cow is free?
Patricia says
So I am in the same position as Sophie except that my BF and I are both over 65. I moved in with this man and up until about 3 months ago he was talking about getting married. At that point we had been living together a little over 2 years and known each other for 4 years. Well, I said okay and he suddenly went running with his tail between his legs, leaving me in a state of shock. His excuse? He was worried we would have a big argument after we were married and everything would fall apart. Another excuse? We didn’t need to be married because he loved me and he wasn’t going anywhere. After much thought I told him that when my house, which is currently leased out, is available next summer I would be moving out since we were obviously not on the same page. And at this time he keeps thinking I am going to change my mind and is surprised that I still plan to move. He would rather lose me than marry me. From what I can tell, all this man wants is a live in maid and companion for his later years because he is afraid to die alone. Ultimately, my advice for any female out there wanting to get married don’t wait more than 2 or 3 years on some man who can’t make up his mind. If he wants to keep you he will marry you without any hesitation.
Sandy says
I read this Sophie and I had to write. I don’t even know the date of this so I may be too late. I went out with my now husband of 31 years for 6 years before he put a ring on it!! I did have to finally walk away before he committed to marriage. I, too, was 90% happy. I stayed at his place overnight on weekends and sometimes during the week but we never lived together. I never had clothes there. I just wanted more. He was afraid. He kept saying, “What if you leave me?” What if it doesn’t work out?” I finally said, “You know what? I am leaving you now. When you are ready to ask me to marry you, let me know. If I am available I will let you know if I still want to.” It took him 6 weeks to ask. Every week he would pathetically call and ask to go out to dinner or to talk and I would say, “Are you ready to ask me to marry you?” He would say something like we can talk about it and I would say, “Call me when you are ready.” It was awful, I was a wreck but I came to the conclusion that if he did not want what I wanted then what was I doing waiting and hoping and thinking it would work out? I should point out I had married at 21, far, far too young, to a “child” who cheated on me numerous times. We split after 2 years of off and on attempts to make it work. I got an annulment through the church as I was a Catholic teacher and 2 years later I met my husband, the father of my 2 wonderful children! I was 25 he was 29. He was everything my “child man” was not. He knew how to save money, he was self assured, he was kind, he was always where he said he was, he treated me like I was special and he was there for me. It took him a year to say he loved me and that was because I forced that out of him as well. I knew he did but I needed to hear it. I asked him and he said he loved me but he wasn’t in love with me and there was a difference. He said he didn’t want a house with a picket fence or kids. So I said, “Oh, okay good to know. I am going to Toronto for the weekend with a couple of my single girlfriends and if I meet someone there I am going to see where it leads because I thought we had more so this is good to know.” He was shocked. I came home and packed. While packing and crying the phone rang and he said, “Don’t go.” I said, I thought we were more but I have to go. I want more.” I hung up. A few minutes later he called back and said, “Okay, I love you. I am in love with you. Please do not go, come over.” Inside, I knew he did, outside, I said, “What did you say, I don’t think I quite heard you?” LOL Repeating it was even sweeter. I don’t know why I waited so long to press for marriage, maybe I wasn’t really ready either. I don’t know if he would have been ready at the 3 year mark and that is why I want to say, Sophie, do what is in your heart. I loved him enough to wait and see, but you are older and you have to do what is right for you. You can listen to advice after advice but only you know how you feel. Write a list of pros and cons. Start working on your confidence. Believe in yourself. If he isn’t the one, I can guarantee you there is “the one” out there looking for you. Be fearless. Be brave. You will figure it out and it will be perfect!
Sandy says
I forgot to say, we are still in love. We do everything together as we are retired. He is my rock and I do not regret a single day of waiting for him. He is the BEST husband and father I could ever have hoped for. Just saying!
Ali says
Sophie’s boyfriend sounds like mine, but I am the idiot at the end of the article who spent 7 years waiting for him to come around. He had all the same excuses… but my free time! moving in is a FOREVER step!
It is hard to lose a long term friend though. I’m still trying to get over him.
Janah says
I have a similar situation. My bf.& I, have been together for 2years and six month,we see each other 5x a week. We argue sometimes like other couple do that leads him better not to move in yet, I told him that I am very tired this kind of situation and like to try to live with him wether our relationship will work or not. He said we could only move in if argue will stop! I don’t know if I should wait him as I feel arguments is just his excuses but the reality he doesn’t want to. I am getting very tired😢😢
Bonita says
I also broke off a relationship with my bf of 2.5 years due to this. He was never on the same page regarding timing for a proposal. I tell you this Sophie, when a man knows, he knows and he would absolutely do anything to keep you so no one steals you from him. The excuses come from when he is not sure. I don’t know your relationship but if marriage and a proposal is priority to you and would make you happy. Don’t wait much longer. Look at it this way, if it was meant to be he would pursue you and make it happen. So if you indeed call it off and he still doesn’t do these things despite knowing that he is about to loose you. Then there is your answer. Bitter truth but you are not the one. Trust me when I say this – when a guy sees and knows what he wants. He goes did it aggressively.
Rakhi Kar says
I really liked the conversation.I am also running from the same situation as well as Sophie.I was just searching google and thenI came to see all those comments.I am feeling really less-stressed as I think I would get few friends who would be there with me to overcome this situation.
And Dear Sophie don’t you worry.Many of us are in this kind of situation,not only you,time has the power to heal every worst thing,right thing will always be happen at the right time.
kas says
So I am a mother of three dating a man who has two kids. It’s been almost five years. We live 45 min away from each other and I stay at his place when my kids are with their dad. I want marriage. Even though he says he understands. He just bought a house a year again so his five year plan just turned into ten. So I’m guessing I just answered my own question. It’s never gonna happen
Di says
When I met my boyfriend, one of the things he said he wanted in a relationship was to get married. Well, it’s been 3 years now and we aren’t married yet and when I bring it up, he gives me the look. I tell him I can understand if we were in our 20’s or 30’s to be scared, but I’m 62 and he’s going to be 61 and we should know after 3 years if we want to be with each other, if we love each other…if we want to spend the rest of ours lives together. He says he loves me but his fear, he tells me, is what if after a few years, I decide I don’t want this anymore….well, I told him if I didn’t want to be with him, I would have walked away a long time ago and not stuck around 3 years. I’m old enough to know who I love and who I want to spend the rest of my life with. He will be getting the “not waiting forever” talk.
Fed up.
Raechel Taylor says
I was in a relationship for 5 years…I (46) have been married and have 4 kids who are teenagers, two have gone off to college…he (44) has never been married, no siblings, no kids. He was a devoted, present, committed partner in every way EXCEPT with MONEY, RESPONSIBILITIES, KIDS and STAYING COMMITTED IN A DISAGREEMENT. SO basically, when it came to being an actual adult, he was totally uncommitted to me and I was on my own, which was fine, given that I have always been self-employed and successful. When I would bring up a future together, he would cite wanting to have certain “basics” before a future together (basics meant, a certain amount of money in the bank, buy his own house, have stable income coming in). Organic progression was something he told me that was important to him as well. His third issue was that I already have been married, had kids, and have lived with other men so he would never have these “firsts” with me, which kept him from moving forward. All these were valid concerns and I respected them, however, at year four, even he stopped mentioning them because he knew he sounded ridiculous after kids moved out, he had made no real progress with savings or career, and was living at his father’s house where all expenses were paid. When I brought up a future together for the last time, at year 5, he panicked and absolutely said I was the one, he wanted to get married, BUT then nothing else happened. I almost thought he was going to propose right then and there, 2 weeks went by, and I realized that he has been making excuses not to be an adult this while time. When we met, we agreed that we wanted to find a partner to build a life with from the ground up (house, careers, finances) and that we both wanted a partner who would love us even if we we broke living out of a car. What I finally realized was that I gave him exactly what he wanted in a partner, but he couldn’t give me the same partner in return. I broke up with him by phone, cried for two days, started my online business within the week, and never looked back. No regrets. If it was meant to be, he would have done something about it. The best thing about this culture empowering men to choose a bride, is that it also empowers women to walk away when they don’t.
Lily says
That is the BEST advice I’ve ever read!! Thank you, I really needed to hear this!
Mica says
This is the problem with falling in love with the idea of getting married and people wanting things too quickly. You get married, the honeymoon phase is over, and then what? Look at how high divorce rates are. Do you think couples weren’t giddy when they proposed and the other said yes, or when they exchanged their wedding vows? Do you think when couples married, it wasn’t one of the best days of their lives? Yet, divorces are too frequent. If I want to know what spending 50 years with a person is like, dating 1-2 years is too little. 3-5 years is good, but I would also let my SO know of my thoughts, feelings and intentions. My policy is be open and honest and be willing to a risk if your gut tells you to do so.
Melaines Gil says
WOW! reading this letter is like reading my own story.
I also have (or had) 3 years with my boyfriend. We are both 30, and after year 2, I talked to him to express him how important it was for me to move in together before we actually get married as way to start building a home before starting a family. By building a home I mean growing as a couple, and starting the foundation of a family while living under the same roof. He didn’t want to.
We both live with our parents to save money. He has been saving aggressively to buy a house, since before he met me. So I understand how important it is for him. However, we don’t sleep together, we don’t have date nights… our time together is watching Netflix in his parents’ basement. We have sex there too but I don’t sleepover. I feel that my needs for affection, quality of time, and acts of service are not being met, and we have had a lot of conversations, fights, and breaks ups over it. I have tried to communicate with him via text, in person, through letters, and things are still the same. Our communication skills aren’t the best, in part because he feels attacked when I express my feelings, and maybe I don’t know how to talk to him so he will listen. So I started taking therapy to fix my part of the relationship. The other part is that when he feels attacked, he say means things and behaves like an asshole. When I confront him about this behavior, he says that he feels I don’t accept him for who he is.
Well to make matter worse, I am now 5 months pregnant, and very little has changed. I knew that since this was an unplanned pregnancy (a result of our irresponsibility of not being as proactive to avoid it), this would either unite us more or break us apart. Well, it seems like it is breaking us apart, mainly because there were unsolved issues in the relationship before this baby. We both agreed to have the baby. He did not flee or anything. I am glad he is the father because he does have a sense of responsibility when it comes to fatherhood. He is the type of man who thinks that being the provider is in their DNA. The beginning of the pregnancy was very hard since both of us were a mess emotionally. We agreed that he would move in with me and my mom, but he wouldn’t give me date. Every time I asked him when, he will tell me “when I get my license and start making 6 figures,” “When the pandemic ends,” mind you he failed the test for his license and now wants me to wait until July/August that he will take the next test. In the meantime, we see each other 2-3 times a week whenever he wants to, and I have felt so lonely, and anxious throughout the entire pregnancy. Mainly because I don’t feel his support 24/7 like pregnant women need. Nobody told me that being pregnat would take such a troll on me emotionally more than physically. I have felt guilty expressing my feelings to him because I think I am being needy. He missed the first kicks, he wasn’t there to give me a craving or to rub my belly, or give me back massages….these little things that we pregnant women need so much from our SO. I am not enjoying my pregnancy as I would want to, and he is not going the extra mile for me to do so. He thinks that seeing me a couple of days a week and watching a show is enough.
So I decided to have the last conversation with him about moving in together, and this last time, it was an ultimatum because I am tired of going in circles about this. So earlier today I asked him if I could see him because I needed to talk to him. He said he was very tired maybe tomorrow. He then insisted that I tell him what I needed to say, even though I wanted us to talk in person. Well, he insisted so much so we Facetimed. And I told him that I need an answer and that I won’t be willing to wait 2 more months (by then I will be 8 months pregnant) for him to decide that he is ready to move in with me since he says he wanted a family with me and a house, then he needs to prove that now. We should be a family since now, and that I need him 100% involved in the process, or we find a healthy amicable way to co-parent. His response to it was “you know what, fuck you.” and hung up the facetime call.
Well, I then followed up with a text to break up with him. This is not what I wanted, but there have been so many things accumulated that this pregnancy just made things worse.
So Sophie, I know you want to be the patient, loving girlfriend. But believe me, I was you for 3 years, and he said he wanted a family with me but always avoided taking about the future in terms of goals etc… Look now we are expecting a baby and he was not stepping up as I expected him to, so I decided to end it. Trust me, being a single mother is nobody’s plan A. So I must have felt very desperate and DONE to take this measure.
I suspect that you may be trying to convince yourself to keep waiting even when that is not what you really want. I have done that for 3 years and the issue will always come back, because this is something important for you, and the only thing that would solve it, in my case, was that he showed me more commitment, put more attention to my needs and we move forward.
Nobody is responsible to make you happy. So the fact that you are 90% happy with him is a great thing. However, the only thing that will keep your relationship healthy and alive is growth. Love is never enough to make things work. ’You are either growing together or dying together. And by dying, I don’t mean the “until death tear us apart” thing.
Jeremy says
I won’t comment about your story, but rather about one thing you wrote – that you attempted to talk with your ex-BF, but he perceived your words as an attack and responded negatively. This is such a common interaction between men and women, such a common misunderstanding, that I felt the need to comment. And when I say “misunderstanding,” I don’t mean between men and women.
Tell me, when you had your “talks” with your ex, were you attempting to suss out how he felt so that you could give him what he wanted, or at least compromise with him 50/50? Or did you have a fairly good idea what he wanted, and wanted to instead convince him to give you what YOU wanted? Was conversation your way of getting your way? Of course, these are not absolutes. A woman might indeed want to get her way and also want to compromise – there are such things as good and useful conversations of course….but were yours more the former than the latter? And if so, might your ex have perceived your words as an attack because…..THEY WERE? After all, why does one country attack another if not to get what it wants?
I write this, not so much for the poster here, whose relationship with her BF is over. But rather I write it for the female readership in general. Sometimes men react defensively to your attempts at conversation because we are immature. Because we are selfish. Because we don’t want to compromise. But other times it’s because it is very evident that the purpose of conversation isn’t meaningful compromise at all, but rather a way for her to get her way. In such situations, instead of talking, offer to arm-wrestle him instead. If you won’t because you don’t think you can win? Then you’ll understand how he feels when you engage in your talks.
TL;DR – talking is good when done with two perspectives in mind, not one.