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I read your newsletter “Why Chasing Attraction is a Losing Strategy in Love” this morning. It was, of course, spot on and the same thing all of my non-single friends have been telling me for the past 5 years. As a woman in my mid-40’s, I’ve actually come to (mostly) accept that advice.
I met a guy that normally I would not be physically attracted to and decided to give it a chance. Guess what? The dude broke my heart just like the hot men that I normally meet. Turns out he really wanted nothing more than sex. Now I hear from him every couple of weeks when he’s in the mood for a bootie call. Unfortunately, now I’m attracted to him for reasons other than just the physical – which makes me feel worse! I’m attractive, physically fit, have a successful career and a sense of humor. What gives?
Honestly, getting my heart broken by the non-stud was more disappointing and heart-wrenching than getting it stepped on by the hotties. At least with the hotties I know what to expect. Any advice? I feel like I should just give up, stick with the hotties who want only one thing, and realize maybe that is all that is in the cards for women my age. But I’d really like to have a real relationship.
Nancy
Dear Nancy,
Sorry about your most recent heartbreak and thanks for your kind words about my newsletter. To synopsize what others may have missed, I made the radical suggestion that if you’ve spent your life chasing hot, brilliant men, only to discover that they are arrogant, narcissistic, selfish, emotionally unavailable and commitmentphobic, then it may be time to choose men who are slightly less attractive and intelligent but make up for it in love, devotion, kindness, humor, effort and loyalty.
Sounds like a good trade-off, no?
When you make yourself emotionally vulnerable to a man: it doesn’t guarantee reciprocation.
Anyway, the positive takeaway from your email is that you tried it “my” way and, sure enough, you ended up falling for the guy. Hallelujah! You’ve just proven that it is possible to become attracted and emotionally connected to a man who would not have ordinarily been on your radar. Consider this a great new paradigm for the rest of your love life.
But there’s a catch when you’re making yourself emotionally vulnerable to a man: it doesn’t GUARANTEE reciprocation.
And thus, you’re left with this irrational feeling that it’s better to get used by a hot player than to open up to the possibility of love with a “regular” guy.
Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.
Unless, of course, you take some pleasure in getting used by hot men who have no capacity or desire for commitment. If so, fire away!
Essentially, you’re saying, if I’m GOING to get hurt, it might as well be by a 10.
Um, I guess you could take that philosophy.
I would sooner look at it like this:
Men who are 10’s on paper aren’t always 10’s in relationships.
You’ve established that men who are 10’s on paper aren’t always 10’s in relationships. In fact, many of them are 3s and 4s in terms of consistency, effort, and commitment.
Thus, you’ve deduced that it may be wiser to date a man who is a 6 or a 7 in looks/brilliance, but a 10 in other areas that matter more in the long run.
Sound reasoning.
But men are still men — and just because he’s not Brad Pitt doesn’t mean that he’s PROMISING to fall in love with you, that he’s GUARANTEED to be ready for commitment, that he KNOWS that he wants to build a family at the same time you are.
In other words, 7’s are men, too. Men with reasonable doubts, fears and issues.
You can wall yourself off from all men for fear of getting hurt, but that would accomplish absolutely nothing.
If you go out with a guy for 3 months and he says he’s not ready for a serious relationship, what does that mean?
Does it mean that you were an awful girlfriend? No.
Does it mean that he’s a selfish bastard? No.
Does it mean that you should never date another man like this? No.
All it means is that you invested in a man, the investment didn’t pay off, and now it’s time to find another man who gives you a greater return on investment.
That’s it.
So stop with this silliness that all “lesser” men are obliged to worship you because they’re not Brad Pitt. This is dating. You could have done the same thing to him.
It’s not personal. It’s life.
Joe says
I suppose the question you must ask yourself is, “Are the guys who are 10s in looks more, or less likely to be 3s in the relationship department than the guys who are 7s in looks?” I don’t know the answer to that. I imagine that “looks” 10s have more options than the 7s, so they have less incentive to be more than “relationships” 3s. But I could be wrong.
Karl R says
Nancy said: (original post)
“Unfortunately, now I’m attracted to him for reasons other than just the physical — which makes me feel worse!”
I would say this is actually a step in the right direction (even if it doesn’t feel like it). The man had attractive qualities beyond the physical … and you implied the hotties generally don’t.
Nancy said: (original post)
“I’d really like to have a real relationship.”
“I feel like I should just give up, stick with the hotties who want only one thing,”
“At least with the hotties I know what to expect. Any advice?”
You’d really like a real relationship. You’ve made one credible attempt at having one, which failed. Now you feel like giving up and going out with the guys who definitely won’t give you what you want, becuase they’re more predictable.
Evan’s right. That makes no sense. But one thing stands out as more nonsensical than the others:
You’re giving up after one failure?
Did you get your successful career by giving up after the first failed interview? Did you become physically fit by sticking with exercises that you knew were already easy for you?
If you accomplish anything worthwhile in life, it’s usually because you kept trying after you failed. Why would relationships be any different?
Sherri Solomon says
Thank You for making this situation nice and simple via just a simple analogy. Why the “Expert” couldn’t do the same is beyond me instead of calling somebody silly as if he had a damn attitude with the lady. Shesh.
dawn says
fantastic response…thank you!
Bill says
Lets be realistically here. If your not into that guy who is a 6 like a 10 that means your not genuine here. No guy wants you to settle for him. If you think your settling for him than he can probably tell. Like i said no one wants you to settle for them. Go find someone your 100% happy with.
Ruby says
Karl R #2
It sounds like Nancy has made more than “one credible attempt” to have a relationship if she’s been putting herself out there for the past 5 years. The difference is that the last guy was less attractive to her than previous men have been. So she changed her strategy, and still came up short. Her frustration is understandable. On the plus side, she opened herself up to the possibility of a relationship with someone she might have previously ignored.
Of course, i do agree that she should keep trying. You never know when the next hot, or not-so-hot, man will turn out to be a gem. I hope she won’t settle for less thinking that’s the best she can do at her age.
james says
Church on that evan!
Selena says
When someone is only interested in dating for sex, it usually doesn’t take long to figure that out. So I’m perplexed as to how Nancy keeps getting her heart broken/stepped on by all these guys – hotties and non-hotties. Is it possible she is building up a relationship in her head before there actually IS one?
And why is there the presumption that “less attractive” people (as subjective as that is) are somehow different than their more attractive counterparts? That they should want serious relationships right off the bat, instead dating casually until they find one who fits? That they should be ‘grateful’ in some way to have someone interested in them at all?
Nancy might consider this man a “non-stud”, but who’s to say he sees himself that way? And if she fell in love with him because of qualities he possessed beyond good looks, I wonder if some of those qualities were similar to the other disappointing men she dated. Same contents, different packaging?
Steve says
Hi Nancy;
Sorry for your disappointment. Like Evan wrote, you are actually moving in a positive direction. Instead of moving toward a dead end, falling for guys where there is only a small chance they will fall for you and be what you want………you’ve learned that you can fall for guys where there is a chance of you getting the relationship you want.
I hope you get over your disappointment soon. We have all been there and know it is the pits. TGIF 🙂
Karl R says
Ruby said: (#4)
“It sounds like Nancy has made more than ‘one credible attempt’ to have a relationship if she’s been putting herself out there for the past 5 years.”
If I get involved with a woman whom I believe is primarily interested in sex, I have made a credible attempt at a fling, not a relationship.
Can a fling turn a relationship? Of course. But you can also stumble into a relationship when you’re not putting yourself out there at all. (It’s happened to me twice.) I can’t claim either is a high probability dating strategy.
It’s possible that Nancy has made additional credible attempts. My perception is based on how she described the relationships with the hotties, not the complete picture.
Bill said: (#3)
“No guy wants you to settle for him. If you think your settling for him than he can probably tell.”
I think you’re wrong about how Nancy and the “non-stud” saw the situation.
20 months ago, I found out how old an acquaintance was and decided she was too old for me. Six months later, I changed my mind and decided to try dating her. It’s been 14 months, and I don’t feel like I “settled” with her, nor does she feel like I “settled.”
The same principle holds true with appearance. As a non-stud, I don’t expect women to be primarily attracted by my looks. I expect them to be primarily attracted by other traits, and sufficiently attracted to my looks.
Elle says
I would try to put the looks issue to one side – except to note, as Evan pointed out, that you’ve tried something new and worked out for yourself that affection, trust and loyalty can catch up with an open attitude to love.
Meeting people and trying to forge a stable relationship is risky stuff, but I think, Nancy, you’re underestimating your ability to learn from your experiences, to judge others and their values (there are possibly – with hindsight – some signs that less-than-hot was perhaps not as open to as serious a relationship as you), to validate other people’s right not to feel the same way about us/the level of our compatibility after some time together, and to cope if things don’t turn out to plan. You sound like a strong, sensible and certainly very attractive person. So, I’d try to dust yourself off and put it down to the man just not being up for the same thing as you at the same time, and seeing/not seeing something in your relationship that you couldn’t/could (rightly or wrongly).
I say this, though, with respect. I assure you, I am still having to bat down my ego and soothe my heart after being dumped (and I can say ‘dumped’ as there was no emotional warning and it was done over email) after a 10 month relationship. The long email outlined all my flaws, in this cool, systematic way and I was given no power over anything, right down to how I was represented/who I was reduced to. It was awful! So I do know how hurtful and humiliating experiences can leave us a little guarded and self-destructive (as would be the case were you to follow your hotties-only approach). But, with time, friendship, and some self-care, I hope we’ll both be up for another go at it!
(And, yes, my guy was very handsome and intelligent, but had a snake’s tongue on him when under any sort of pressure, real or imagined, and his haughtiness about his desirability to the opposite sex was quite astounding! Funny how we can fail to respond to these things by focusing on the pretty and the potential.)
Christie Hartman says
Nancy, you have taken the first step in a multi-step process – i.e. you have learned to stop choosing men based on degree of initial attraction. As Evan says, this is not a good strategy for finding a good partner and sends many single people down the wrong path. Now you need to take the next step, which is learn to evaluate what KIND of man he is. How does he treat you after several dates? Is he a gentleman? Some women don’t know the signs of a quality guy, and have to learn the hard way. But once you learn, you won’t go back.
Whether you date a 10, 7, or a 2, if the guy doesn’t treat you right or doesn’t want a relationship with you, he’s useless to you and it’s time to move on.
Bill says
I am in marketing and sales no matter what illusion you might place on yourself dating is very similar to marketing/sales. I love to people watch.
One of the women I know is 41 she has a very similar personality to you because I can tell by your letter. She always thinks she is settling no matter what. If he is x y z she is settling because thats how she views the world. The hardest thing for her is that she can’t do worse than she has done in the past.
If we lined up with what you technically settle with I bet you didn’t really settle at all. You might settle with looks but it was made up in other areas big time.
Since your in your mid forties the men you passed up when you were younger are looking very very attractive to other women in your age bracket. The high quality ones in your age range are all taken because most women have realize what took you so long to realize.
The truth you are going to have to find someone that you are the best they can find for you to get the relationship you desire. Thats the truth. The way the average person looks at relationships is about maximizing your returns. Women control when men have sex with you. Men control when is this going to be a relationship.
For me the biggest turn of is the kind of women who always sees relationships as a gain or negative. The glass is half empty/settling. I find women who always see the glass as half full very attractive.
JZ says
Wow! I could say OUCH Evan, but what you said is truth. Men are men, just as women are women! I’ve always dated the “10”‘s, always got the heart break, but once when I was crying over the lastest “10”, feeling sorry for myself. My mom quietly said to me, “You know, you’ve broken a few hearts in your day too!” At that moment, all the guys that I stepped on, over, etc. came flooding back to me in my mind. I immediately dried my tears and realized (like Evan said), I could have done the same thing to him. It’s about getting back out there, learning from that last situation and putting the knowledge you’ve gained into play.
Shalini says
I’m shocked at how much people can misunderstand a simple advice. That newsletter was about giving more men a chance so that you can find someone who is more available emotionally and get more chances of finding someone. It never said do this and you will find you love instantly!!!
And of course, you can’t expect someone to fall in love with you if you think you are settling or that he is not good looking enough so he must love me. Has this girl ever thought how she would feel if someone made her feel like that? Would she want a relationship with a man who thought she was less than what he deserved?
Zann says
Simply put: getting dumped by someone you’ve grown attached to is just no fun, not matter who they are — hot, homely, or somewhere in the middle. If you got to know them, and you grew to like them, maybe even loved them, it hurts when it ends. I think some have misinterpreted Nancy, though. She’s not saying she lowered herself and “let” this guy date her even though she considered him “less than” her in terms of desirability. No, she’s saying she stretched outside her instant-chemistry comfort zone (taking Evan’s advice), and she fell for the guy. This has happened to me and, I admit, when rejected, the thought HAS crossed my mind, “What? YOU’re dumping ME? YOU’re saying no to THIS?” Yes, it happens. But I think the real disappointment is knowing that you stretched yourself, you got over yourself and your so-called standards, and gave the guy a chance. But then you still got dumped. And that feels worse because you know you went outside your comfort zone and remained open & flexible, but then it seems like you didn’t get the same in return. Game over. So not fair.
But you’re heading in the right direction, Nancy, and you are definitely not alone. Keep going.
Diana says
Zann, I think you nailed it. 🙂
JerseyGirl says
So well said Zann. I do not think Nancy is being snobby here. I think she jsut feels like she can’t win either way. She goes for the hot guys and looses, she goes for a more average guy and still looses. And in my own dating experience, even average looking guys sometimes believe they deserve super models. Especially with how men grow up inundated with visual images of all kinds of surgically and photoshopped images of women.
diana says
To Bill #10, I am in the age range of Nancy and I really do hope that you’re not correct in writing that all the high-quality men are already taken. Maybe that’s my problem. 😉 Are all the quality women taken?
Also, your comment … “The truth is you are going to have to find someone that you are the best they can find for you to get the relationship you desire” is interesting. While I feel that I would be a good match for the right man, I know that he could always find someone better. I think this is the case for most everyone. So what’s a person to do? I could have easily found a man way better than my former husband in physical appearance and success, yet we both fulfilled the relationship we each desired at the time, and for many years thereafter.
Steve says
@Christie #11
What are the signs of a quality man? A quality woman?
Karl R says
JerseyGirl said: (#16)
“in my own dating experience, even average looking guys sometimes believe they deserve super models.”
There’s no evidence that this is what happened to Nancy. If anything, the evidence points the other way.
If I reject a woman because of her appearance, it’s at the very begining, and I certainly wouldn’t keep her around as a booty call.
Zann said: (#14)
“you know you went outside your comfort zone and remained open & flexible, but then it seems like you didn’t get the same in return. Game over. So not fair.”
Evan has previously mentioned an exercise he does with his private clients: make a list of 20 flaws/traits that might cause someone to not want a relationship with you. (I don’t recommend doing this if you have low self-esteem.)
Some of those “flaws” will be assets in some relationships. I don’t want kids, which has led to a couple breakups. But my girlfriend sees it as an asset.
Some of those “flaws” will be non-issues. I don’t tan and sunburn easily, so I hate hanging out in the sun. My girlfriend doesn’t care.
But there’s something on that list (or several somethings) that my girlfriend sees as flaws. They’re balanced out by my good points, so she can either choose to accept the bad with the good -or- she can find another boyfriend who has a different set of flaws.
If my girlfriend doesn’t remain open and flexible, she rules out a relationship with me … and with every other man on the planet. She can only prevent me from having one relationship (the one with her). The penalty to me would be trivial compared to the penalty she would impose on herself.
How is that unfair to me?
diana said: (#17)
“While I feel that I would be a good match for the right man, I know that he could always find someone better. I think this is the case for most everyone.”
Better in some ways, worse in others. In the past four years, I’ve dated five women whom I thought were amazing. I’m in a wonderful relationship with one, and could have had good relationships with at least three others under other circumstances.
With each of the women, I can tell you several ways that they’re better than my girlfriend and several ways they’re worse. I can’t find “someone better” than my girlfriend. I could only find a reasonable tradeoff.
I’m in a wonderful relationship. Why would I spend several more years of my life just to end up at an equivalent place to where I already am?
Chris says
JerseyGirl said: (#16)
“in my own dating experience, even average looking guys sometimes believe they deserve super models.”
I don’t think this tendency of guys demanding 10s is that widespread, but it isn’t completely irrational from a guy’s POV.
How are these beliefs that women have about men compatible?
1. Men are obsessed with sex.
2. Men will only date 10s.
By definition, there is not a 10 for every man. Therefore it behooves sex-obsessed men (ie, every one of us) to date whomever we find compatible and who will have us. Therefore I doubt that the “men demands 10s” phenomenon is that widespread.
If you do know a 5 who insists on a 10 what he is doing might be disappointing to you, but it isn’t crazy from his own point of view.
To generalize, women value compassion, income, and confidence more than men do. Therefore, a nice, high-earning, decently self-assured yet average looking man actually does stand a chance at landing a “supermodel.”
Also, not every woman has the same idea of what is attractive. I am a 5 (I’m 5’7” and don’t have a great build), yet I have had a few girlfriends who were 10s, including my future wife. I always knew these women were better looking than I was, but for some reason they saw me as very attractive; perhaps because I am nice, I have my act together financially, and I am very smart. When I was single I prized intelligence above all and happily went out with many of attractiveness peers (many of whom rejected me), but had I wanted to only date 10s I could have if I were only patient.
Chocolate Brownie says
No matter the guy’s “attractiveness” it how Nancy plays the game!!! Why give men the one thing they want so soon? How about no sex without a relationship? Better yet, Nancy try this one: “I am celebate and would really like to be intimate only with the one who is looking for a serious long-term relationship.” Nancy, this would give you the change, if the guy sticks around, to see what kind of man he is, if he is qualified or not.
Christie Hartman says
@Steve (#18) “What are the signs of a quality man? A quality woman?”
How much time you got? 🙂 As it pertains to this situation, a quality man is one who treats you well and wants a relationship with you. I mentioned something to this effect in my last paragraph. Seeking out booty calls does not fit either part of this definition. As far as a quality woman goes, I won’t go into that here for the sake of brevity.
At first, Nancy’s post seems to be about picking a 10 versus a 6. If that’s all one cares about, then yes, getting dumped by the 6 is more annoying. But what Nancy really wants is to find a “quality” guy who treats her well and wants a relationship with her. And picking men based on how hot you think they are isn’t a good way to do that. The same thing applies to men.
Gabrielle says
Personally, I think Zann hit it on the head: Our girl Nancy changed her standards, hoping she’d get a better result. She dropped her guard, took a risk, allowed herself to feel something for someone she wouldn’t have normally given a chance, and got treated JUST as badly as before. It’s humiliating, and SO not right, but it happens. I’m not surprised she’s reverted to “the evil you know” thinking.
Here’s what I have to say about her attachment to this guy: It’s probably not him you’re attached to, babe. It’s the potential he represents. If he’d worked out to be the good guy you’d hoped, your faith in a new way would have been justified, right?
The problem with learning new skills is, you have to make mistakes before you really get it down. This dude isn’t your end result, he’s part of the learning process. Getting the same result with different data tells you SOMETHING’s going on. Do you relate to this dude the way you did the 10’s? Are your expectations for relationships the same, or different? Look for common elements and see what you end up with.
Good luck!
Gabrielle says
Chocolate Brownie said: (#21)
“Why give men the one thing they want so soon?”
This assumes sex is all men want. Oh, it’s up there alright, and men DO frequently treat sex as recreation, not as an expression of love.
Even so, my male friends tell me that’s definitely NOT all they’re looking for. I believe them. I don’t believe most of them have a clue how to go about finding it, or how to recognize it when they do.
I’ve been wrestling with the “when to give it up” question too. Frankly, I take it as given that with most guys, the desire is there if he’s paying attention to me. Whether he follows through depends on a whole slew of other factors–many of which I have no control over. If a guy wants to be with me, he’ll make it happen, regardless of whether I’ve had sex with him or not.
What I do have control over is me. I decide whether sex is going to be an option. I make my rules of engagement clear, then proceed however feels right, given the circumstances. I DON’T invest past the casual stage no matter how much I like a guy–he’s got to prove himself to me if he wants more. Biggest proof: he makes a real effort and his actions match his words.
It’s not always easy, and it’s certainly not “romantic” but it’s practical.
Bill says
The truth women often give it up because they feel that will attract the man they like into wanting them more.
Star says
This gal thinks that just because (according to her) she is attractive, physically fit has a successful career and a sense of humor that she is a good catch.
The fact that she is writing this letter is evidence that she thinks she is better than anyone else.
She is in her 40’s and still having trouble finding a mate, it may be wise to take a good long look at yourself instead of blaming men. Yes, men may be the problem but I’m guessing there may some improvements to be made on her end. We all have improvements to make within ourselves.
I see it time and time again, women in their late 30’s/early 40’s who have never been married and can’t seem to keep a guy…and most of the time it’s the woman who has major issues with how she treats the men in her life and her expectations of the man…that make the man run.
Andy says
Star, I respectfully disagree with you on this point. I know many kind, wonderful women in their late 30s and 40s who have never been married and aren’t in relationships. They all treat men very well and expectations are in check.
Denise says
#25 Bill
Agreed
#26 Star
Agreed
I’m in my mid 40’s and have noticed the same things as you. What I have seen is a tendency to go too fast, too soon and go overboard immediately. What I’ve seen is women’s tendencies to try to make themselves indispensible to the man, doing everything for him early in the relationship–totally invading his boundary. It’s similar to the sex thing Bill mentions in #25. They take over the male role and the male energy.
I’ve seen men show no mystery and gush all over right away…it’s like he’s so happy someone wants him, he’s going to smother her. He takes over the female role and female energy.
Who knows what the issue is here, but some things to think about.
starthrower68 says
Nancy If it makes you feel better, I found out today that the guy I had been dating for almost 2 months hit on one of my best friends. Yeah, I know all the stuff Evan says, but it still doesn’t feel good. I’m doing exactly what Evan says, however, and walking. And really, if he’s not smart enough to know that girls talk, then I need to move on anyway.
Goldie says
Ughhhh. Can we all go a little easier on Nancy and not assume she “thinks she’s better than anyone else” just because she: 1)had the gall to admit she has good looks, a successful career and a sense of humor; and 2)decided to try it with a guy that would normally be out of her dating pool? I do not see it anywhere in her letter that she looks down on the guy. She says she’s attracted to him, for crying out loud – even while he’s using her as a booty call.
Why on earth is it that we encourage our fellow women to be empowered, be confident, not downplay their good qualities… then, when one of us actually does these things, we’re ready to rip her head off for it?! Let’s not turn into the Harvard Sailing Team here, people 😉 Okay, rant complete.
@Selena #6: “And why is there the presumption that “less attractive” people (as subjective as that is) are somehow different than their more attractive counterparts?”
Yes, I think this is where Nancy’s problem lies. Why did she assume that? My guess is…
1) It has been mentioned on this blog multiple times 😉
2) Really attractive, popular etc. people are assumed to be spoiled due to all the attention they get throughout their lives, while people that are not as hot/popular are assumed to have developed better human qualities to make up for their insufficiently good looks. IMO, both assumptions are stereotypes. No one is that straightforward. Take Nancy’s guy, for instance – stringing her along, not having the decency to even break up properly, keeping her around for when his urge strikes, using her attraction to him for his own advantage. Sounds like quite the charmer, doesn’t he?
I like Christie’s idea (##11 & 23) – just take the looks out of the equation entirely. They’re irrelevant. Define your comfort zone as something based on people’s personal qualities, not external stuff like the looks. Then venture out of it 🙂 Christie, please feel free to correct me if I got that one wrong. I’m still learning myself.
Kaitlyn says
I’m curious how many people Nancy is dating at any one given time, why she is continuing to accept calls from a guy that is obviously only interested in sex (unless she is ok with that) and how she became so attached to someone she was casually dating so quickly.
I don’t care if he is a “7” or a “10”…at 2 or 3 months of “dating” you are just really getting to know a person (at least in my opinion) and if someone has shown you who they are (ie. only calling for random ‘bootie’ calls) then believe them. I’m also relatively new back into the dating world (after a 5 year relationship/me calling off an engagement) and am being very cautious…so perhaps my point of view is off a bit.
That said, though, I would question what ‘vibe’ Nancy is putting out there to these men that she is meeting if this pattern continues to repeat itself in her life. Is she coming across too needy too quickly? Is she moving/pushing too quickly to see a “relationship” where there isn’t one? I wonder if having been single for 5 years and looking for that elusive relationship…if that is coming across to the guys that she is dating?
Bill says
The truth I have seen really fat unattractive women happy with a man. So if your better way better than a really fat women than there has to be something wrong with you. It is your personality.
I was watching Mad Man last night women are very much into there looks because thats what men see but the truth men care about personality way more than what you look like. But if he had the choose between two girls with similar levels of personality he would pick the more attractive one. The truth personality is more important than looks.
nancy says
Wow!! I’m Nancy – thanks everyone for all the great feedback and thank you Evan for some real food for thought. Just to redeem myself a bit here: I’m not self-centered, I have been married, I don’t blame men or I wouldn’t have written Evan (I am a huge proponent of taking responsiblity for our own lives and the results of our own actions) and this was a learning exercise in stepping outside of my comfort zone. To those of you who wondered why I kept answering the phone when the guy called – the answer is simple – because I was hoping. I am still hopeful, but perhaps not with this relationship. There are some awesome responses – wish I could meet many of you in person! Clearly I don’t visit this site enough and will have to make it a point to become a more frequent visitor.
As for the guy, I saw him again this weekend. It was a great example of doing the same thing and yet expecting different results – oops. I’m still attracted to him and I’m still human – when we’re together he is awesome – although I saw some interesting personality changes this time around. He’s awesome until the point at which we part ways – and I don’t hear from him for weeks. One of my closest friends put it best when she said “nanc, what do you expect? you allow this to happen”. Having just sat here and read through all the great responses (positive and negative), I can honestly say that I have. I can also say that I’ve learned much and won’t judge all men based on my experiences with a few.
Picking myself up, learning, and moving on………….
Kat Wilder says
I’m going to second (third? fourth?) what some others above have said.
It seems there may be a “too fast, too soon” thing going on … along with expectations (“I’m so great; what’s wrong with him?”) and, pardon me for being blunt, a neediness.
You want a relationship. You’ve been dating for five years without much (long-term) luck). It’s easy to get frustrated and bitter (not saying that you are). Men you’re meeting may not be feeling the same thing, quite honestly; they may not be looking to settle down.
I think you might be approaching dating by looking at each man as a partner, instead of looking at him as a date and seeing where you fit and where you don’t. Getting dumped is the price we pay for trying to figure it out. Sorry, but there’s no other way to do it.
Except an arranged marriage.
JerseyGirl says
Bill #25, while your point is valid in some cases, women don’t always use sex to keep a man around or interested. Sometimes we have sex because we physically feel like it and really like a man. Because we are sometimes capable of the same feelings of lust and attraction that men are. However, most women aren’t going to sleep with a man that they don’t seem more potential for. From a female perspective, I personally don’t like how men will say they want something more then just sex, even get upset if they are protrayed as sex chasers only, but if sex is offered, will take the woman up on it. Then act like it’s her fault for “giving it up” too soon. I often feel like women are responsible for not only their actions but his actions as well because 9 times out of 10 the woman is blamed for sleeping too soon with a guy and a guy is defended as being a “man” and it being okay that he went on a whim of his hormones. And all the while, while men will pander to their hormones, women aren’t suppose to think that all they are interested in sex. It’s a bit confusing to be honest.
Chris #20, I’m personally not a fan of the scale of rating people 1-10 because I think it’s high schoolerish. But I do think even average guys think they deserve a certain level above themselves. Even you in your advice, you say that men will settle for who accepts them (not flattering either to a woman either 🙂 ) but you got to admit that you are bragging a little bit that you’ve dated women who you consider “10s” who accepted you and one who will be your wife. So while I don’t think men will hold out for super attractive women, I do think men hold these women above all others and even if they are with an average girl, will spend the rest of their lives lusting after super hot ones even if they form a relationship with a woman who accepts him.
Karl R says
JerseyGirl said: (#34)
“I personally don’t like how men will say they want something more then just sex, even get upset if they are protrayed as sex chasers only, but if sex is offered, will take the woman up on it. Then act like it’s her fault for ‘giving it up’ too soon.”
Let me draw a comparison.
Most women say they aren’t into guys for their money, and get angry if they’re portrayed as gold-diggers only. But I’ve never had a woman refuse to go on a date just because it cost me over $100 or $200 … even when the relationship was never going to become that serious.
If a man can’t afford to spend more than $50 on a casual date, then it’s his responsibility to choose dates within his budget. The woman’s not to blame if he doesn’t.
If it’s “too soon” in a relationship for you to have sex, then it’s your responsibility to say “No.”
JerseyGirl said: (#34)
“because 9 times out of 10 the woman is blamed for sleeping too soon with a guy”
9 times out of 10 it’s the woman who is complaining about the consequences. If the man is complaining about the consequences, I’ll happily point out to him that he is responsible for his choices, and that he gets to live with the consequences of those choices.
JerseyGirl said: (#34)
“and it being okay that he went on a whim of his hormones.”
It’s okay with me if you choose to have sex on a whim of your hormones. But if you choose to do so, it’s not the man’s responsibility to tell you that you shouldn’t. He’s your date, not your mother.
You seem very interested in “fault” and “blame” with regards to sex. If a man and a woman meet, decide to have sex, and end up in bed together all within 10 minutes, they both made a consensual decision. If both of them end up being happy with that decision, would you say that either of them is at fault or should be blamed? If both of them end up being unhappy with that decision, wouldn’t you say that both of them are responsible for making a bad decision.
So if one person ends up being happy with the decision, and one person ends up being unhappy with the decision….
I’m going to say that the unhappy person is responsible for making a decision which led to unhappiness. The happy person is responsible for making a decision that they’re happy with. From my point of view, the way you seek to ascribe “fault” and “blame” to the happy party (for a consensual decision) seems ludicrous.
Joe says
Does this guy, whether a 10 or a 5, think that you would make a good wife or mother of his child? Or like every Guy, he’s just interested in Sex without the relationship? Because it seems like most women, you want a “Relationship” but like most men, “he wants only sex” – If you want a relationship, then you have to ask the Guy if he is serious about marriage, because without marriage, a guy will eventually leave you. Even marriage is not a guarantee for loyalty, but at least there will be financial consequences.
helene says
I totally understand Nancy. This totally sucks. We learn (the hard way) that hot guys can treat you like trash. They can do this – we are told – because they have SO many other options they can afford to trample on a good woman’s love and affection, confident that there will always be another one waiting round the corner. Average guys, so the theory goes, have LESS options so they are less inclined to trample on a good thing when it comes along. But hey! Not so in Nancy’s case.So we are left with – the hot guys think they can treat you like trash. The average guys ALSO thing they can treat you like trash.Who does that leave??????
Sorry if I sound kinda fed up here but I just had a text an hour ago (A TEXT!) from the guy I’ve been seeing cancelling our date for tomorrow evening (and forevermore) because he’s suddenly decided he’s quitting his job and moving back to France. A text. No discussion, no “how do YOU feel about me quitting my job and moving back to France?” just a text saying game over.
LCE says
Nothing stings worse than being ditched by someone you weren’t initially into, especially someone you chose with the thought that they would (in this case, believing they should) worship you. Been there. The sting is critical, but it teaches a valuable lesson about not believing yourself above OR beneath anyone.
If it feels like settling, it is settling. I don’t care about women’s lib – as a woman myself, I am acutely aware of the trick oxytocin will play on your head after you begin sleeping with a guy – hold off on the sex until you’re clear in YOUR head how YOU feel about him, what YOU want from this thing and where YOURE willing to go.
Cause, I mean…. this truly sounds like a case of a broken ego, not a broken heart.
Bottom line: Why waste your own time forcing things? There’s a difference between giving a decent guy a chance to sweep you off your feet, but be clear to that as your strategy and don’t “fall” for someone who hasn’t swept you away. An don’t fall for him the second he does sweep you away unless that little internal voice (the one you know that I know about because we all have one) can, in good conscious, release the need to question his motives. If you’re a skeptic you’re always asking yourself what things mean. And at the end of the day, trust is what quiets that voice. So if the voice is still questioning things, and or you feel anxious, walk. BUT, if there’s no real need to question or feel anxious and you feel it anyway, work on trust issues. You may have to face your own unavailability for the answer to the question as to why you keep ending up with unavailable men.
marina says
Nancy, don’t drop your standards in who you date. Date the guy that you feel attracted to.
The answer in finding what you want is to know how to read his intentions, not settling down for anything less than what you want and be prepared to dump him at the first signs that he is not going to give you commitment. Pay attention on how much he invests in you and how much he respects you.
Keep moving, keep dating, don’t stop, don’t settle, don’t accept any form of disrespect, don’t nag and don’t moan. Observe, make your own conclusions and take the decision if it is worth moving on or staying. Never explain yourself. Get standards if you don’t have already and stick to them. That’s what will make you be the prize.
Ren says
I say go for your what like. As another commentor posted, it does’t take long to figure out if a man is after sex, no matter how he looks. When you get those signs or he tells you he’s not looking for anything serious, bail!
I have also tried to date men that I wasn’t attracted to, and they also never treated me any better than the hot men I was used to dating. Some of them even stalked me. Less attractive men were no more nicer, didn’t treat me any better and didn’t put me any closer to being in a committed relationship.
The notion that a less hot guy will treat you better or commit is a myth and misnomer. You have the right to like and not like whatever you want. Regardless of looks, avoid anyone who is not giving you want you want. And don’t settle for what you don’t want just to have a man, because that doesn’t guarantee you a good relationship either.
Joanna says
I have dated a man for 18 years; and I still do not know him.
At one point we lived together in the beginning of the relationship; we helped each other, I was sick could not work full time; but did a lot of the housework so I did end up working more than full time but he did too.
I moved on my own 8 years later, we began dating about 5 months or so after my solo move. Here it is 18 years total and I am not sure.
Now I want to move on.
And I will and take my chances.
We do the best we can.
Jenai says
Evan,
Many women’s biggest issue with men is that they don’t typically say “I’m not ready for a relationship.” I unfortunately know very few truly completely and totally honest men. I know many more liars and cheaters and dishonest men than I know honest men. Some of the biggest liars and cheaters I know are actually married. I feel for their wives.
At any rate, my point is, many men are not being honest about how they really feel, and what they really want. They do and say whatever they have to in order to get what they want from women. If she starts doing too much and their back is against the wall, and/or if they get caught, then they are honest.
Evan Marc Katz says
You overestimate the problem based on your life experience. 20-25% of married men cheat over the course of their lives. 15-20% of women do as well. So if the majority of men you know are dishonest, I feel bad for you, but don’t think they’re a representative sample of all men. The second you, as a woman, feel you’ve cornered the market on being “good” and that “men” are XYX bad traits, you’re sunk. You may believe it with all your heart, but it’s a biased, false and disempowering narrative. The reason you’ve found men to be so troublesome in dating is because you date men. Start dating women and you’ll find the exact same thing. Promise.
Jenai says
Evan,
I’m well aware that everyone lies and cheats. I’m not being biased at all.
But even from an internationally cultural standpoint, men tend to cheat and desire more than one woman at a time moreso than women cheat and even desire more than one man. How much do you hear about women desiring more than one husband? I don’t think men like to admit this flaw that they have, but it is. In fact it’s in the bible. How men women desired multiple men as opposed to men desiring multiple wives and women. Even where the bible speaks about homosexuality, it’s from the perspective of men desiring sex from men because they couldn’t get it from women, not women desiring other women. I understand that this is something innate that’s in men. Not necessarily the desire to cheat, but the desire to spread their seeds and a typically a stronger sexual desire than women. This is also medically proven through science.
I also understand that the guys I know don’t represent all men. I do know some truly honest men, however, my point is they are the exceptions, not the rules.
By all means, if you know a large number of honest, truthful, respectful, and consistent men, please share them with the good women that you know. *smile* 🙂
Karmic Equation says
Hi Jenai,
Noticing other women is different from lusting is different from acting upon that lust.
A) Almost all men will notice other attractive women.
B) Some men will notice and lust.
C) Some men will lust and act upon that lust by approaching her.
Most men lie somewhere between A and B.
It’s only the men in C that you have to worry about. The A-B men are normal. And how much they love you and value your relationship will determine where in the continuum between A and B he lies.
Jenai says
Key Karmic,
I agree with your points. One thing I’ve learned from all the men I’ve ever known is that even when a man cheats, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he doesn’t love his wife/gf and/or is not in love with her. Men cheat for a variety of reasons, some different than women. I do believe that most men that do cheat will Not leave their wife/sig other. People do crazy things in the heat of the moment, it’s human nature. As Evan said, it doesn’t make them a bad and horrible person.
Sometimes cheating doesn’t always happen out of sheer lust. I’ve had married men and men in relationships bond with me the same as they did their wives when they first started dating them. Like in the workplace for ex. If your working closely with someone, going to lunch with them often, working on a project with them, sharing with them, talking to them and you both get along usually you end up bonding. This imo is the most dangerous type of affair because it’s of the heart where the man can fall in love with the other woman. Most all men I know can fairly easily walk away from a woman they just lust after, regardless of whether they sleep with her or not. It’s not so easy if they’ve formed a bond with her and find themselves falling in love with her.
From what I’ve seen, heard and experienced, the root of the problem is in weakness and not knowing how to say no and draw the line. Knowing when to stop the formation of a deep bond with someone else before it even starts. Knowing how to resist temptation. Since the beginning of time this has been mans biggest weakness, and downfall.
Men have told me that no matter how much they love their sig others, they are weak and have a hard time resisting temptation when its always there. I think this is something men have to learn to work on and this is an area they need to strengthen themselves in.
At the end of the day, regardless of whether a man is super fine and sexy, or fat, ugly and unattractive, or very attractive but broke, a weak man is a weak man. And unfortunately he will almost always succumb to temptation when he’s presented with it, until he learns how to resist.
I understand from a psychological standpoint how damn near impossible it can be unlearn something that is natural to you, and something that becomes a part of who you are. It’s a process that takes time and patience, like anything else.
Stillsingleat40 says
This advice makes perfect sense but I also understand the disappointment that Nancy is feeling. Having adopted a strategy of giving more men a chance over the last few years I haven’t had much success with it and it is frustrating to be dumped by men I wouldn’t have even considered ten years ago. I can’t help but wonder if it is really worth the effort. Life is hard enough without all of this. So I have pretty much decided only to date men on a similar social level where there is some sort of spark and walk away if they turn out to be interested in just one thing and spend the rest of my time on other things I enjoy more than bad dates. Is it working? Maybe not so far and maybe it won’t but then nor was anything else and at least this way I have more time to do other things I like instead of spending all of it on a potentially endless quest. Just my two cents.
Jenai says
I personally think love and finding “the one” is about 80% chance. There really is no rhyme or reason to it most times. I think really good dating coaches, and people in general can match people with the people better suited for them if they get a good idea of who the person is. But a persons family can also do this. Regardless though, there are no guarantees.
I watched that show married at first sight. Only 2 of the couples stayed together in the beginning.
But even those couples eventually after more time together broke up.
What’s needed is programs to teach people how to love and how to compromise, and how to be reasonable, and how to have staying power in a long term relationship. Teach them how to debate, how to handle disagreements, hardships, trials, and tribulations. This imo seems to be the root of many peoples problems.
I honestly don’t know any married couple that has been married for well over 10 years that didn’t go through some very serious issues. So serious that many people would have walked away. But they chose to stay together. That is what made the difference.
camillian airbag says
Get real… Looks is important… Feeling great with my looks and there looks is ATTRACTION dammit and for some humans it’s needed. Get off your high horse and stop dissing poor Nancy. This is all contingent on ” our thoughts ” Now really think on that. Go date. Make mistakes. Get dumped. It’s all a learning experience in the end.
Kimberly Ann Smith says
This is another bullshit article. There are no guarantees in dating, love,and relationships. The woman did as you said, to date a guy below her standards and still got hurt.
Sue says
It’s sad that ppl r jumping to conclusions on how “Nancy” is rather than trying to understand or at least be compassionate towards what she might be going through. Everyone has a rough image in mind which they might not even be aware of consciously of how their prospective partner should look like and/or be like. Brad Pitt may not be image resembling to for everyone. “Settling” might also mean looking beyond that image, that expectation. Apart from the looks, there might be so many other nuances to which Nancy might have adjusted herself to and might have given her care, affection, time and stuff only to find out at the end that it was all an illusion and hence, felt heart-broken. Anyways, who cares, right?
Julie says
I could have written this. I had the exact same thing happened recently. It’s probably one of the most devastating breakups I’ve ever gone through partially because I really did fall deep for this guy. I felt like we had so much in common and he seems so gentle and sweet. I really let myself trust him despite how much I’ve been hurt by other men. But in the end he did a 180 and hurt me just as much if not more than all the other guys have. I’m just becoming so bitter now. I just want to hurt men now before they can hurt me. I’ve given up on the idea of a good man I don’t think there is such a thing. So now I’m playing this guy from Europe and he’s got crap loads of money and I’m flirting with him and being sexy with him. He’s going to take me on a trip to Europe hoping that will have all kinds of sex but I’m not going to have sex with him. I’m just going to use men like that and flirt with them until they buy me things or take me places. But I’m not going to put out ever. That’s all men want and I’m not going to give any man sex ever again. I’ve given up on finding love and I’m just going to use men now and not give them anything in return. They’ve used me my whole life for sex and now it’s my turn to use them. I guess that’s the female version being a player. I can take care of my own sexual needs. I want to hurt them I want to make them cry. I want to make them want me so bad and never ever have me. I literally think every man in the world is horrible now and I’m going to spend the rest of my life hurting them.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re going to be horrible to men who haven’t hurt you to avenge men who have? That sounds like the single worst idea I have ever heard in ten years of doing this. I’m sorry you’re in pain but becoming a shitty person does nothing to balance the karmic scales. If anything, it makes you no better than the men you decry. I hope you rethink your position and cancel that trip to Europe ASAP.
Maria Almudena says
Jesus, Julie, your post reads like the beginning of a Stephen King novel. Please realize that this, too, shall pass. Be kind to yourself, give it time.
Using men is not as easy as you think it is, and it may be dangerous. So please take safety precautions if you decide to go ahead with the whole diabolical plan.
Theodora says
I thought like you a couple of times in my life. The problem is that your plan of revenge is not realistic. The men you want to hurt – selfish, people-users, narcissistic – cannot be hurt because they have thick skin and learned to guard their own interests. That’s why they can use people so easily, because they have no remorse and are immune to hurt. You can’t beat psychopaths at their own game if you are not a psychopath. You can’t surpass the cruel in cruelty if cruelty is not in your nature.
It’s like in that parable with Buddha and the scorpion. Buddha and his disciples were crossing a river when he saw a scorpion on the point of drowning. Buddha saved the scorpion, which proceeded to sting him. “But Buddha – asked the disciples – why don’t you take revenge? Throw the ungrateful creature back into water”. “Taking revenge is foolish – said Buddha. It’s in the nature of the scorpion to sting and it’s in my nature to be kind. The scorpions can’t change their nature and I cannot change mine.”
What helped me most as an immediate aid in those moments was a sense of humor – I laughed at everything, including my own past blindness, stupidity and wrong choices. Those who can laugh in times of defeat cannot be defeated.