How To Transform Your Frog Into A Prince
- Dating, What You May Be Doing Wrong
You ever go out with a guy who is completely clueless?
He starts talking about his evil ex on your first date.
He rambles on about his latest boring business deal.
He flirts with the waitress a little too much.
Truly, it’s easy to find fault with male behavior. Guys are really easy targets.
But a man’s ability to court says nothing of his ability to be a good husband and father.
So before we dismiss every guy who does something stupid, let’s consider how to make the most of dating. Not every clueless guy is a bad guy, I promise you.
Once you learn how to bring out the best in him, you can transform a frog into a prince.
As a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women, I hear all sorts of stories about male misbehavior. My clients are very passionate about the ways in which they’ve been disappointed by men. And I don’t blame them.
Lots of guys suck.
Not every clueless guy is a bad guy, I promise you.
But not all of them.
And if you find that every flaw that a guy could have is a potential deal breaker, you’ve pretty much ensured that no man could qualify to be your partner.
That’s not what you want. So how can you make a slight adjustment, without losing yourself, without “settling”?
Liza is in her late thirties and has been frustrated by what she perceives as an overall male cluelessness. No guy is chivalrous enough. No guy is successful enough. No guy is interesting enough. No guy follows up in the right way. In short, no guy can please her.
Before working with me, Liza would go out on date after date, hating the process, dissecting the men, and wondering what’s wrong with all of the guys in her city.
Then I asked her a tough question.
“Why are you focusing on only your date’s negative qualities?”
“Well, what else am I supposed to focus on?” she replied. “He’s supposed to pay for my dinner. He’s supposed to pick me up. He’s supposed to tell me I’m attractive. Why should I reward him for just doing what he’s supposed to do?”
“I suppose you can look at it that way”, I said. “But what if he focused exclusively on your negative qualities?”
“Like what?” Liza replied, with a laugh.
“I don’t know. Maybe you could tell me. If I were to talk to all of your ex-boyfriends, what do they know about you that I might not?
“Well, I can be a little bit judgmental. I also have kind of a short temper.”
“Okay…What else?”
Liza paused, thinking this through, deciding how much to reveal.
“I don’t enjoy crowds, concerts or malls. I tend to obsess about my work. I’m not always the cheeriest or most optimistic person in the world.”
“Fair enough…Anything else?”
“I don’t like trying new foods. My boobs are too small and my butt is too big. And, although you’ll never catch me admitting this on a date, I have herpes.”
I thanked Liza for her honesty and reminded her that all of these perceived “flaws” just made her a normal human being.
They don’t negate her great qualities — her sharp wit, her fearless ambition, her loyalty to her family. They’re just another layer — a layer that any man who is going to date her has to be able to handle.
And if each man were to focus exclusively on Liza’s flaws and ignore her incredible assets, he’d really be missing out. Wouldn’t he?
Liza sighed, taking this all in.
“I’m missing out on some pretty decent guys, aren’t I?”
I’m not saying that you’re horribly flawed — no more than anybody else. I am suggesting that a fundamental shift in thinking is essential when it comes to long-term relationships.
It wasn’t until I got in touch with my own humility that I learned to appreciate my wife for all that she is, rather than wishing she were someone that she wasn’t.
This is how we go through life.
The next time you go on a date, do your best to focus on the things you like about him, not the things that you don’t.
We know that we don’t want to be judged, but we can’t help judging others.
It’s like we’re looking at a hunk of Swiss cheese and instead of focusing on the cheese, we focus exclusively on the holes.
It’s a glass-half-empty view of life and it’s a big reason you have trouble connecting with men.
You see them as a sum total of their flaws instead of their positive traits. No wonder you can’t find anyone good enough. Each man is dissected like a lab rat!
Learning to accentuate the positive and get in touch with my own humility was a major breakthrough for me.
Instead of assuming that women would be naturally impressed by me, I started to be conscious of my own flaws. Not obsessed by them. Not weighed down by them.
I was just more aware that any woman has to put up with my bad qualities and that she won’t always be dazzled by my good ones.
So when I met my wife and I started to dissect her — a little older, not as well-read, not as ambitious — I forced myself to remember that I wasn’t always a prize myself.
For example, I’m moody and neurotic and can’t fix a single thing in the house.
And there’s a lot more where that came from.
What I realized was that my wife knows all of this — and yet she focuses on my good qualities instead.
I’m sure she still gets exasperated when I complain about my bad hip, or when there’s a toilet stopped and I have to call a plumber, but she doesn’t make me feel bad about it.
The next time you go on a date, do your best to focus on the things you like about him, not the things that you don’t.
After all, you would want him to do the very same thing, wouldn’t you?
When you start to treat a frog more like a prince, he actually BECOMES more like a prince — and can start living up to your expectations.
When you focus exclusively on his flaws, all you end up seeing are his flaws.
And what man sticks around with a woman who finds fault with everything he does?
Certainly not the smart, strong, successful man that you desire.
Christina says
Yes! Thank you yet again. It seems many of us expect perfection while being far from perfect ourselves.
Raymond Bork says
Most of us hardly ever think about our negative points and the effect on others. Being aware of our own negative traits would be very beneficial to our relationships in general. Be it with co workers, friends, or our partners.
It took me many years to finally realize I had been treating women appallingly. I was insensitive to their feelings, and deep down i was only really interested in my well being. I actually imagined I had been good to them.
My wife must have put up with a lot from me all those years ago. Today we enjoy a genuinely warm amazing relationship, because I stopped being selfish.
Ellen says
Nice coinky dinky Evan!….My email signature right now! People deal too much with the negative,
with what is wrong…
Why not just try to see positive things,
to just touch those things
and make them bloom?
…
–Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnamese monk (and beautiful spirit).
my honest answer says
It’s so true! I have so many single friends who rule men out for wearing an ugly shirt, or for having bad hair, or no hair at all, and the truth is, everyone can do with a bit of polishing. That said, beware you’re not just papering over the cracks. Small things can be changed, but his personality is his personality. Whatever shirt he wears.
Lisa M. says
Ladies, please listen to your gut and trust your own instincts. If a guy makes you feel uncomfortable and you sense that something is off — it usually is. I have never gone out with a guy I wasn’t attracted to in some way or the other. I don’t waste my time like that. So if I accepted an invitation to go out on a date with a guy it’s because I’m very interested. No one I know hates dating more than me. If a guy sets off my alarms… he’s gone. I’ve ignored my gut feelings a few times in the past and wasted time. I know better now.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Lisa “No one I know hates dating more than me.”
May I ask why you’re here then? Because my advice generally tries to provide perspective, motivation and hope for women, yet every comment of yours pretty much contradicts mine.
Do you simply enjoy raining on others’ parades? I honestly don’t get why you’d tarnish an optimistic post about self-awareness with another “guys are creepy” comment.
david says
Liza has the same problem a friend of mine has — she has a rules about how men should act on a date and respond to her romantically — a guy just builds up infractions over very minor things — like I told my (still single and still frustrated friend), “No guy has the rule book you have in your head.”
Ruby says
The problem I have with this is that some of the behaviors mentioned might make me think a guy wasn’t that into me. If a man rambled on about a boring business deal, i could live with that, but if he rambled on and on about his ex? That might raise a red flag. If he flirted with the waitress? Again, I’d have to question that. I don’t expect a man to be perfect, but i do expect courtesy and consideration.
If a few too many issues pop up on the first date, it does plant seeds of doubt in my mind. In the past, when i have overlooked the fact that amy date flirted with the waitress, for example, I’ve ended up regretting it.
Please note that I am not talking about superficial things like a man wearing an ugly shirt, nor am I saying that I myself am perfect. But i know enough not to drone on and on about my ex, or to flirt with other men in front of my date.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Ruby – Did it occur to you that a man flirts with a waitress simply because he has a flirtatious personality, the same personality that women find attractive? Did it occur to you that he’s telling you the story about his ex because he’s in touch with his feelings and you’ve exhibited the qualities that made him feel comfortable sharing them with you? That’s my point entirely. It’s not that it’s cool for a guy to talk about his ex, it’s that it’s not necessarily a sign that there’s something wrong with him. Because telling you about my broken divorce and sharing my disappointment is a far cry from “I want my ex-wife back”. You have to allow for the former and dismiss the latter, the same as you’d like a guy to ignore your first-date faux pas, I presume.
Maria says
Evan: I can’t believe you’re even making excuses for that! It’s just simply RUDE to flirt with other women while on a date with one woman. When one is on a date, the attention should be on each other, not the whole world! Most of the things on this list are definitely deal-breakers in my book. Not saying women are perfect but I don’t think women should have to excuse anything they are not comfortable with.
Ruby says
EMK #9
I guess it is a matter of degree. A story about a man’s ex wouldn’t bother me, but anger about what a “psycho-bitch” the ex was, would. My own problem in the past hasn’t been not cutting a man enough slack, it’s been making too many excuses, but that’s my personal issue.
Texasgal says
I agree with Evan as this has been a real struggle for me. After much introspection I discovered that my tendency to dissect men and discount them for silly reasons was my way of protecting myself. Because of my own trust issues, I truly expected each of them to reject me. By rejecting them first, I got to feel like I was in control. Let’s just say my approach resulted in a frustrating dating experience. Now that I’ve let go of the trust/control issues my dating life has turned around completely. I hope other women are able to learn this lesson sooner than I did 🙂
Margo says
Evan says: “It’s like we’re looking at a hunk of Swiss cheese and instead of focusing on the cheese, we focus exclusively on the holes.”
This is a good article. The above quote does a good job of getting the point across.
I will say I’d have a hard time accepting an incurable STD though.
Judy says
Good article, and yes focussing on the positive is a good thing. The hard part for me is finding the fine line between misunderstood behavior and a red flag. Some are obviously obvious, but others make me question myself am I too judgemental or am I just too forgiving? Evan, please keep guiding us to reach intelligent decisions. The example of the flirtatious behavior with the waitress is a good one, it makes you see both sides of the coin.
A-L says
I think we all need to be reminded of our flaws, as a good lesson in humility is valuable in all aspects of life.
But as far as the title of this post goes, I thought it would be more about positive reinforcement than about changing one’s perspective. For instance, if a guy does something you really like, but it’s not commonplace for him to do it, then you let him know how happy you were that he did it. The guy sees how pleased you are, and wants to please you, and so does the desired action more frequently. Therefore becoming the prince you always wanted. As David said in #6, no man has the rule book in your head.
nathan says
A-L – I don’t know about you, but I’m all too aware of my flaws. In fact, if anything, I might worry about some of them more than necessary. But I suppose that isn’t the case for everyone, and it’s true that being aware of your flaws can help maintain a sense of humility.
Ruby, I think we’re all given to mistaken understandings of behavior that happens on the first few dates, maybe even longer. I rarely flirt all that much on first dates, and also am reserved about physical contact in general on first dates. This definitely changes once I’m dating someone, but I don’t do lots of affection and flirting with strangers. It’s just not how I am. I’m positive some women have seen this as a sign of disinterest, even when I was interested. If I’m interested, I will ask more questions about a woman’s life, listen to her stories, look her in the eyes, pay close attention to details, try and get another date set up promptly, etc. But all of that is less obvious than blatant flirting, touching, kissing, and the rest.
The thing is that so many of us are out of touch with our gut sense, intuition, or whatever you wish to call it, that we end up running our lives based on the horrors reported in newspapers, or the stories our friends and family tell us, or some research we read online or in a class. All of that might offer some helpful pointers, but none of it will give you a full picture of the person sitting across from you on that date. Lisa M. talks about guys setting off “her alarms” – and given how negative many of her comments about dating seem to be, I have to wonder if those alarms are realistic insights about the men she’s dating, or fabrications based on what she thinks men are all about.
Guys do this kind of crap too, so I’m not just picking on Lisa or women here. We’d all do well to spend more time actually observing what’s going on with someone while on a date, and delay our judgements and decisions – especially on someone who has some of the qualities you’re looking for and for whom you feel some attraction to.
Clare says
I agree with you, Nathan.
I am always super skeptical of someone who says that another person “set off their alarms” without being able to provide a concrete reason as to why.
Much of what we perceive as flaws in others are actually just projections of what we dislike in ourselves, or our unconscious biases or fears.
As a wise person I know is fond of saying, bring things back to yourself first. Be aware of what’s going on with yourself first before looking at the other person.
Lisa M. says
Evan, I feel that this blog is more male friendly because the viewpoints appear to cater to men more than it does to women and that’s just my in opinion. And that’s fine it’s your house. I have very strong opinions as everyone here knows by now. I sometimes forget that many blogs tend to cater to a particular veiwpiont. And that often means preaching to the choir in which I am not good at. I’m a very independent thinker and I tend to think outside the box, so this blog is probably not a good fit for a woman like me.
Thanks for allowing to share my opinions and experiences.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Lisa M (for the last time)
My viewpoints don’t cater to men more than women. My viewpoint, to borrow a phrase, attempts to be fair and balanced. You just seem to want a blog that caters to your narrative that men are bad and women are good. Whenever I offer advice to a woman about how she could adjust, certain women (like you) invariably come back with the “what about men?!” line. This is largely a blog read by women, not men.
The only way it’s “male friendly” is that it’s written by a man who believes deeply that your reflexive male-blaming is a terribly ineffective strategy if you want to make a long-term connection with a man.
Honestly, you should find a site that agrees with your worldview, because you’re not going to get any validation for man-hating here.
Callie says
Good points over all, Evan. Once again I think you are spot-on in pointing that a lot of what some people call “settling” is just being realistic about all of us having imperfections.
However, I find the distincation between treating a men like a ‘prince’ but not ‘putting him on a pedestal’ somewhat confusing to put into practice personally….
Rob says
@17 Pedestal means pretend there are no imperfections. The man becomes perfect in your mind, while you build up subconscious resentments. These leak out in small ways that keep both of you less than happy. Or you turn a blind eye to egregious mistreatment and eventually get hurt.
Prince means acknowledging his faults but deciding you accept and can love him as he is, knowing you can live those imperfections for keeps. (You might not have to, but you have to be prepared that you will).
Margo says
@ Ruby no. 8, the way you handle the flirting is you tell him once that you don’t like it. If he does it again, he’s gone.
Liz says
@ Lisa M. – Hating men, hating dating, and being convinced that the world is against you is not “thinking outside the box.”
Ruby says
Margo #19
Flirtatiousness by itself wouldn’t have been such a big deal, but in my ex’s particular case, this was only one of a number of issues. He isn’t a bad guy, and we’re still friends, but he wasn’t a great boyfriend. Still, I was willing to tolerate his faults because I knew he had other great qualities, which is why I have trouble relating to EMK’s picky client.
I think we get so many mixed messages about dating, from He’s Just Not That into You (subtitled The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys), to watch out, if you are too picky, you might wind up alone. Perhaps there is a middle ground somewhere?
Margo says
@Liz no. 20, Lisa M. never said she hated men. She’s just tired of the selfishness, and unsavory character that MANY men display in the dating world. This is what makes dating tiresome for women.
What has surprised me on this thread is the number of posters who would accept cheating because their significant other has other “favorable” qualities.
Cheating partners have been characterized as “good” people. That’s an oxymoron. There are no “good cheaters”. The man/woman made a concious decison to take their clothes off and have sex with another person. They didn’t just fall between someone’s legs as if by mistake.
And, no, I’ve never been cheated on as far as I’m aware. If I were, I wouldn’t be so accepting of such a transgression.
vanessa says
Wow @ Lisa M.
Retract your claws girl. Perhaps you’ve been choosing the wrong guys and rejecting the right ones?
It’s important to learn from your experiences, but don’t expect each man to be so evil straight from the get-go. It’s like you’re looking for the flaws.
Hopefully, one day you can be vulnerable and still feel safe with the right man who will protect you and cherish you (so you won’t have to do it all yourself).
Laine says
If a man goes out with me on a date and he has a flirtatious nature, then I would like him to flirt with me, not the waitress.
Steve says
I think what Evan posted was a tactful way of saying that his clients tend to be impractically perfectionist and that they tend to have an inflated image of their appeal. Messages many people need to hear in this age of narcissism.
Small things should be let go of, but I don’t think make major habit patterns are likely to change. EMK made that point many times previously. The trick is to have some sort of judgement over what can be and is likely to change before taking the route of making a person into a project.
david says
I don’t see how this blog “caters” to men if the advice is supposed to help women (and women seem to be the most readers and blog posters) and evan’s whole approach is to help smart, strong women in / with dating
Sherell says
Its also called growing up and being a positive person Some people go thru life seeing the glass half empty, but many others can be shown a better perspective. As you grow up you realize life is complex: with lots of grey, not black and white. You give people and situations the benefit of the doubt initialy. Makes like easier and more enjoyable IMO
Sherell says
Some folk are meant to go through life miserable! Any you know what? Just let them!!!
DinaStrange says
That was a truly positive comment 🙂 lol
BeenThereDoneThat says
Nathan
I am like you in that I’m reserved and proper on a first date and not touchy/feely. As i get to know people better, my teasing side comes out more. I’m sure many of my first dates wonder if I am into them but I always try to be engaging. Conversation usually comes naturally to me. I think a guy is into me not because he flirted or touched me on a first date; but because he asks me out again, calls me, etc. The very things you do are the things that show me he is interested. Just flirting with me, holding my hand – those are “in the moment” things.
I am wondering because I am not a naturally flirty person, especially in a first date context (I’ve been told that I flirt very well with people I am not interested in or am when we are just friends), what kinds of things can I do to show I am interested?
hunter says
Men wear ugly shirts???..Really???hhhmmhh..
Liz says
@Margo – Wait, what does this thread have to do with cheating? I missed the cheating aspect.
A-L says
RE: Nathan‘s #15
Well, I guess I’m like the narcissistic people that Steve was talking about because I rarely focus on my flaws. Granted, I’ve worked to try and minimize them (or at least how they are displayed), but a reminder is never a bad thing.
RE: Margo‘s #22
I think you’re mixing this thread up with the infidelity one. Your word choice was quite interesting when you said “cheating partners.” I was talking with someone about how others are described. When someone says “poor people” or “black people” or “stupid people” the emphasis is on that characteristic that makes them different (poor, black, stupid). But when it’s rephrased as “people who are poor” or “people who are black” or “people who are stupid” the focus remains on their humanity, with the other descriptor as secondary.
And I think that’s the key here. Your focus is on them as a cheater. Others focus on the individual as a person. Good people can make mistakes. Defining a person by one mistake is rather short-sighted as well. Would you like everyone to think of you only in terms of one mistake you may have made at some point in your life? Or as Evan talks about in this post, would you like them to give you the benefit of the doubt and see you as a whole person with both good and bad qualities?
JB says
This is the crux of what Evan teaches and preaches and I wish he could change the minds of every woman AND man out there to see things more realistically.The amount of delusion in the single/dating world(especially online) blows my mind on a daily basis.
The thread “You’re probably passing up your soulmate and don’t know it” with OK Cupid statistics in it stating that women rate 80% of men as “below average” was very enlightening to me although honestly I think it’s closer to 90% in the over 40 age range where I’m at.
I actually had a woman who’s 5 yrs older than me tell me on the phone that “this time” she’s going to give Match a full month because when she was on the site last year she went on 8 dates in the first 2 weeks and didn’t like any of em so she took her profile down. 2 fricken weeks ??!!!! When I called back to set up a date she never returned my call….shocking huh? This 55 yr.old woman was expecting to meet her “soulmate” in 2-4 weeks or she was quitting. Yes…….some people deserve to be alone and the more “picky” they are the more likely that’s how they’ll end up. I agree with Evan 99% of the time……….now about that 1%………LOL
nathan says
Beenthere “I am wondering because I am not a naturally flirty person, especially in a first date context (I’ve been told that I flirt very well with people I am not interested in or am when we are just friends), what kinds of things can I do to show I am interested?”
To some degree, I think those of us who aren’t quick to move in a physical direction just have to accept that some people will miss our interest. If someone is impatient by nature, they won’t get along with me anyway, so it’s just as well that they miss my signals.
But there are other things I have done that have helped demonstrate interest. I remember a conversation with a woman I dated for a while where we talked about herbal medicine. She talked about having some issue with allergies, and after our date, I did a little research and sent her links to some information about a couple different plants that might help. It wasn’t a big thing, but she definitely noticed and told me she appreciated the effort.
And that’s the biggest thing in my book. If someone is making an effort to see me, get to know me, spend time with me – I’ll assume there is some interest. And when I am interested, I make the extra effort. It might take me until the third or fourth date to escalate things in a physical sense beyond hugging and a kiss good night – but if I’m interested, there won’t be silence on my end in between dates. I’ll be calling, e-mailing, and doing things like the example mentioned above.
Sonja says
I seem to be meeting a lot of men lately who are what I think of as needy or insecure. for example calling/texting 13x in a half hour, or thinking I’ve cancelled the meeting/date when I didn’t respond to a few texts right away (within 2 hrs of the date). iI was actually in the bath getting ready. i don’t feel like iI have the time & energy to deal with that. I’m thinking if anything they should be showing me confidence then.
Darren Miller says
This reminds me of my girlfriend’s best friend. She is very very fussy when it comes to guys. She will go on a date and come home moaning that he doesn’t have a nice car, his topic of conversation was boring, he doesn’t have a decent job etc. It is rare that she will say anything positive other than he’s cute.
However, more recently, she has begun to think about why she can’t find the right man and she has started to look at herself more.
She can be very selfish and likes to talk about herself. She is focused on her career, sometimes too focused.
She has realised that dating and relationships aren’t for her right now. She doesn’t want the commitment and in a way, she looks for faults in a guy so she doesn’t start to get feelings for him.
Diana says
Unfortunately, while how a man courts a woman may not directly reveal what type of long-term partner, husband or father he will be, it’s the process that is used to make that determination. A lot of the mistakes that men make in dating can be seen as they’re being clueless and naive, i.e. is it fair for women to hold it against them, but they can also be indications of disrespect, lack of consideration, moral judgment, rudeness, poor communication skills, narcissism, etc. If the courting stage is where everyone is on their best behavior, what happens next?
I have come to the conclusion that many men are clueless about how to properly date, in part because the so called rules are constantly changing, and honestly, no one ever taught them how to date and court a woman. Add to the mix how every woman is different. This recently occurred to me when thinking about my own son dating. It’s similar to how I think most people are never taught how to have a healthy, strong and loving relationship. Even if they grow up in a home with parents who provided a great example, it’s not enough. It’s only the first stepping stone, as each person is unique and no two relationships are ever the same.
In Evan’s post, the reason why Liza viewed her dates in that manner is because she’s a negative, judgmental person who looks for their flaws to protect her insecurities. This goes beyond the real of dating. Who we truly are as a person, how we live our life and see the world is reflected in our dating. I am in touch with my flaws, and I’m not even dating. 😉 Because of my own sense of humility, this automatically brings compassion and better understanding of others. This never fails to bring out the better of a person, and so it is with dating. 🙂
DinaStrange says
By calling Lisa negative and judgement, u were judgmental and negative yourself…and then u praised yourself.
starthrower68 says
@ Hunter #31,
I can live with ugly shirts. I draw the line at Members Only jackets or Sans-A-Belt slacks. That’s asking too much.
Mark says
I missed out on a lot of potential girls and friends because of this. So it is not just women who have this problem.
Luckily I focus on positive things in people these days. That is not to say that I HAVE to look over all negative aspect of people, but most I can deal with.
AQ says
This teaches us a huge lesson to be more forgiving and less critical and more appreciative so we bring out the best in our partner!
JerseyGirl says
Generally, we are on our “best behavior” in the beginning stages of dating, or at least we should be. We bring our A game right? With that in mind, if I am out with a man and he flirts with the waitress, what exactly does that tell me? He’s thinking about his attraction to this other women. Not me. So if I can’t hold his attention long enough for him to want to be on his “best behavior” to impress me, then it’s not going to bode well for the future. It’s the same principal with guys that’s eyes wonder to a woman as they walk by your table. I’ve been out on dates like that and if a guy can’t work up enough energy to want to impress me, treat me right off the bat, focus his attention on what is actually infront of his face, then one year, 5 years or 10 years down the line he certainly isn’t going to be able to do any of that either.
Selena says
I’ve been a waitress. When I was on the job if a man flirted with me when he had a woman sitting beside him I thought him a jackass.
If I were the woman sitting beside him I would have thought him a jackass too.
Nothing inherently wrong with having a flirtatious nature. Being unable to discern when it’s appropriate to flirt and when it isn’t? Not very bright.
ad says
@Evan @ Lisa M
I don’t think this blog caters to men, Lisa M, just women who are interested in how men think, rather than just reaffirming how women think. I recently wrote an article for Match.com “Are Your Girlfriends Keeping You Single” which caused much outrage, but when I met my (now fiancee) I found that many of these critical, girl-posse behaviors were meant to keep out men.
I think what Evan does here is take the situation for what it is and try to help women with the facts, Instead of constantly lamenting that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, he suggest you go west if you want to see a sunset.
And @Evan, I wouldn’t get my panties in a wad over her posts. She is a good foil that everyone can see through.
JB says
@Diana #38 “I have come to the conclusion that many men are clueless about how to properly date,in part because the so called rules are constantly changing, and honestly, no one ever taught them how to date and court a woman.Add to the mix how every woman is different.This recently occurred to me when thinking about my own son dating.It’s similar to how I think most people are never taught how to have a healthy,strong and loving relationship.”
Whe you say “properly”date,what does that mean? Who decides what’s “proper”?Rules can’t change because there are no “rules” written anywhere for men OR women for dating and or relationships.Every man is different as well not just women.And I’ve often wondered why school curriculums don’t include basic relationship type courses but Algebra is mandatory?
nathan says
I’m laughing so hard right now. Evan drops some examples of ways men might behave less than perfectly on a first date, goes on to write about how women might take a look at their own examples of less than perfect behavior or thinking, and then a good half a dozen women fixate on the “flirting with the waitress” one liner. It’s hilarious. Seriously.
Lisa M. might have a sour attitude about men and dating right now, but at least she was willing to admit a few posts back that she is too picky about a man’s looks.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Nathan – my point, exactly.
No one is claiming that men are perfect and don’t need to do things differently. It’s just a colossal waste of time to turn every bit of advice for women (which is what I do – NOT give advice to men) 180 degrees to finding fault with men.
From now on, when someone does this, instead of defending myself from childish attacks that I “favor” men, I’m simply going to link back to my blog rules and mission statements:
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/about-the-blog/
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/rules-of-the-blog/
For all of you women who instinctively “like” every comment that puts the blame on men and thereby miss the entire point of the post, I will remind you:
I’m a coach for women. As such, my responsibility is to help women by teaching you to UNDERSTAND men from a reasonable, relationship-oriented man’s point of view.
You can feel free to dismiss it, but your very dismissal of my posts will continually prevent you from understanding, relating to, and connecting with actual men.
There is a big difference between being friendly to a waitress and hitting on her, a big difference between talking about your ex and calling her a psycho, a big difference between teasing and being verbally abusive.. Your inability – or unwillingness – to understand the inherent nuance between these positions, and always go to the extremes to make your points, is a waste of your breath.
I have never said for you to put up with anything other than reasonable behavior. And if you think that what I’m asking you to put up with is “unreasonable”, you will find that there are virtually no men left on earth for you. Have it your way.
But please, stop the same tired tropes on my blog.
Such unrealistic thinking is harmful to the women who actually want to understand what men think and do- instead of continually stressing what you want men to think and do.
Annie says
@Nathan.
I have a lot of respect for what you say here.
It seems that some people are more interested in the amount of attention they are recieving on a date, rather than giving their attention to the man/woman who is in front of them. All this ” The man must prove himself to me, he must be trying to impress me” is so one-sided. What about just getting to know some-one instead of being so defensive.
If you dont’ have some-one in your life but are looking Nathan, I think you’ll find some-one lovely quite soon. You’ve got a great attitude. Good Luck 🙂
Karl R says
ad said: (#44)
“I recently wrote an article for Match.com ‘Are Your Girlfriends Keeping You Single’ which caused much outrage,”
It was a very good article.
JerseyGirl said: (#42)
“Generally, we are on our ‘best behavior’ in the beginning stages of dating, or at least we should be. We bring our A game right?”
Do you really think people bring their “A game” on a first date?
People are nervous. They aren’t sure what to talk about. They don’t know if one of their favorite pasttimes will bore (or offend) their date.
You never know what (seemingly innocent) topic will hit a conversational landmine. (For example, asking me about my family … given that several members have significant mental/emotional disorders.)
If you don’t look at your date enough, he or she will think you’re bored, inattentive or checking out other people. If you stare too much your date will think you’re some kind of nutcase. What’s the correct amount of eye contact? That varies from person to person.
While I think it’s common for people to be on their best behavior on the first few dates, I don’t think it’s advantageous. If a woman doesn’t like my normal behavior, then we’re not going to last long in any case.
Selena said: (#43)
“When I was on the job if a man flirted with me when he had a woman sitting beside him I thought him a jackass.”
Different people call different things flirtation. To some people, it’s flirtation if the man asks the waitress her name, makes eye contact and cracks a joke. To others, that same behavior is being polite and treating her like a person.
JerseyGirl said: (#42)
“if a guy can’t work up enough energy to want to impress me,”
Do the things the man does to impress you really end up being the things that matter a year or so down the road?
My fiancée didn’t really impress me the first time we met, or the second, or the third, or the fourth….
Good thing we hung out in the same social circle. I didn’t run out of opportunities to get to know her better.
Node ³ says
@Diana 38, @JB 46
There’s actually something else that factors into the whole “clueless/naive” thing. It’s the fact that dating advice fir men is absolutely deplorable.
Have you wondered why a man would read a blog for “strong, smart, successful women?” Simple. The posts here are more useful to me as a relationship-oriented man than competing sites for men.
Why is that, exactly? Suppose a clueless, relationship-oriented man wants to become more clueful and searches for some dating advice online. What’s the first thing he’s going to encounter?
The seduction community.
Anyone who goes too far down that rabbit hole will exhibit far worse behavior than ex talk. Many seduction community “gurus” actually advocate a man flirting with other women to make his “target” jealous. Most male-oriented coaches and products are at least somewhat tainted by seduction community teachings, and thus emphasize ethically questionable practices for purposes of short-term sexual conquests as opposed to long-term relationships. Breaking the stranglehold that the seduction community has on the market would certainly improve actual male shortcomings (as opposed to those imagined by women).
DinaStrange says
Good one! So very true.
Selena says
@Karl R. # 49
Making eye contact, smiling, cracking a joke are all things servers do to establish a friendly rapport with their guests. Better rapport, better tip. And it’s much more pleasant to have friendly guests opposed to surly.
There may be women who confuse being friendly with being flirtatious, but that’s not what we’re talking about. EMK was the one who brought up being flirtatious to waitresses and I assume he knows the difference.
Gem says
This thread is a perfect example of Evan’s overall article. Some people are hyper-focusing on what they deem negative about his article and missing the big picture and the positive message all together. This is what he doesn’t want us to do on dates 😉
Since flirting with the waitress seems to be a hot button, I’d like to suggest that I doubt Evan is suggesting any woman put up with a cad, but rather don’t lose the forsest for the trees. I dated a man who flirted with everyone, woman, men and children…..It wasn’t sexual flirting, he was just very, very charming to everyone. But the word, “flirting” does seem to fit. He was a master at making others feel good about themselves and smile or laugh.
If I were an insecure person, or labeled it negative and gave it too much attention, it might have bothered me so much that I dumped him on our first date, but the more I got to know him I realized he could have taught a class in charm and didn’t mean anything sexual about it.
It became one of my favorite qualities about him because at that time I was more shy and watching him work a room helped bring me out of my shell.
Diana says
To Node #50, I completely agree. This is why, even though Evan’s advice is targeted to women, by reading his blog, etc., I have gained valuable information about men, too, that I sometimes share with my son. Reading this blog, etc. made me more aware of how so many people kind of bumble along through dating and relationships (I did the same thing early on), and usually not with a great deal of success, but if they were more knowledgeable and aware they might fare better and save themselves some heartache. 🙂
I have no doubt that my son is totally clueless. [LOL] I think a lot of the younger generation is. It’s trial by fire, and yes, it’s called life experience. Everyone seems to figure things out for themselves sooner or later. It’s just that they may have lost their ideal mate in the process. I’d rather wake up at 28 vs. 38 or 48, but hey, it’s better to wake up later than to never wake up.
To JB #45, I hope you didn’t feel offended by my post. The Internet and bookstores are full of written rules, depending on whose advice you seek, though I was thinking more along the lines of the rules society makes that are not necessarily implicitly written down. One week it’s guy/gals should do this; the next week it’s something else. And yes, who determines what is proper is up for interpretation and to the individuals involved. As Evan has pointed out, I think there are some tried and true rules that he’s posted here in various articles about the proper things that men should do when courting.
Selena says
I enjoyed reading this essay of EMK’s and I agree with it – I suspect there are many daters out there who are quick on the trigger to perceive “quirks” as dealbreakers and shut down the possibility of getting to know the other person. Experience is a great teacher however, and if you know a particular behavior bothers you, overlooking it isn’t going to make that person into a good match.
The big draw of this blog for me is how dating “dilemmas” get dissected in the comment section. I like reading different perspectives. I don’t find it hyper-focusing on the negative. If people don’t like comments that aren’t precisely aligned with EMK’s view, why bother reading the comment section? Let alone commenting negatively about those comments. LOL!
Tracey says
Hey Even,
Sorry, started a comment and sent without finishing… anyway. I think you are doing a great job here. I have been reading for about 6 months and have learned a lot about myself by reading and seriously considering how I fit into some of the sceanrios that you describe.
At some point this post went from being about small behaviors that women might observe on a date to all out dangerous behaviors and trusting your gut. There is a huge different between seeing a signal that indicates a dangerous person and someone who flirts or talks too much. Your words were taken to the extreme. Ladies, of course you should listen to your gut if you believe that you are in a dangerous situation or that someone is showing you that they are not a good person in a dangerous context… I think Evan was refering more to nit picking on little things like talking to much or being flirty. My feeling is talking too much can be nerves and flirtiness is often just a look how cute I can be behavior. If it continues and becomes a problem that is different but give the guy a break… he could be someone fantastic with first date jitters…. geeeezzz!
nathan says
Annie @48 Thank you. I’m currently single, but am working on that 🙂
Also, would like to co-sign Node’s point about the seduction community influence on dating advice for men. It’s pervasive. And while you can find bits of wisdom in what they are offering, there are far more effective ways to learn about being a better dater than wading through PUA/seduction materials.
Andrew says
I read this quote somewhere:
“If you look for a reason to reject someone, you will always find a reason to reject someone.”
As for the seduction community influencing men, this is certainly happening. Just bear in mind that those PUA techniques are based on successful strategies. If PUA didn’t work, there wouldn’t be PUA.
The most valuable part of PUA is “inner Game” where a man works on himself to build up his overall confidence and general attractiveness to the opposite sex.
Men do need coaches and classes but men are more likely to learn on their own through trial and error, it’s the masculine way of learning. Evan is right to have a mostly female market because women are more likely to reach out for help. His advice and approach is utterly outstanding but sometimes unnerving for women.
Given the amount of dating I do, I should be offering a class for men.
Michael17 says
Andrew #58 (and the women on the forum):
Coaches in The Men’s Community (which I think is a better term than PUA community) tell men what *they* are doing wrong and what they could be doing better. I suppose a guy reaching out for help in this area could be told “It’s not you, it’s the women, they say one thing and mean something else and have all these crazy ways…” (and often that is true!) but that would not do him any good. So instead he is taught how to deal with women as they really are, so that he is effective at dating.
Evan is doing likewise for you ladies. I suppose that you could be told how we guys suck and that the problem is with us (and that is often true too!), but that won’t do you any good. So you are instead taught to deal with us men as we are, so you can be effective at dating.
Michael17 says
I agree with Andrew #58 that a guy tends to be looked down upon by both genders for “seeking help in this area of his life” (i.e., partaking in The Men’s Community). I mean, no woman wants to think that the guy she is sleeping with got his personality from a $2500 seminar he took last month.
I’m all for it though. My experience is that the online dating world is full of “Liza”s with unrealistic/unreasonable expectations. It seems to me that women online are very quick to write a guy off unless he either checks all the boxes in her long list, or he is able to get her to feel “chemistry” on that first date (which she comes in with her guard up). This is challenging because most of us as guys don’t really know what it is.
As a guy, it definitely cuts when you go on a first date with a girl that you like and who seemed to be excited to meet you, and the date seems to go well, but then she doesn’t want a second date, citing something about “the chemistry” not being what she was looking for. I’d be lying if I said that I didn’t find myself wondering “What’s wrong with me? Is there something inherently unattractive about me?”. Especially because she approved of how I looked ‘on paper’.
In fact, maybe the guys who are good at this “chemistry” thing are NOT on Match and they aren’t looking for a girlfriend. The Men’s Community is trying to help the rest of us (who are actually looking for a girlfriend, believe it or not) get this “chemistry” thing to get past Liza’s defenses so that she will give things a chance (because deep down inside, Liza is probably a really sweet girl). So women might want to reconsider their assessment of The Men’s Community. But I digress…
Men are a lot more reasonable. If the conversation went well enough and you look like your pictures, we tend to be willing to see you again.
nathan says
Michael and Andrew,
I have read some of the materials of, and have been in some online discussions with people anti and pro-PUA, Men’s Community, or whatever you wish to call it. From what I have seen, it’s quite a mixed bag. Some of the coaching and material does genuinely seem to be aimed at helping men figure out how to be more confident, and get into healthy relationships. However, there also seems to be a lot of stuff geared at helping guys get hook ups and flings, which I think presents a challenge for those of you promoting these kinds of methods and philosophies. Women generally seem to view PUA/Men’s Community approaches negatively, because the “how to get women in the sack” kind of stuff is all they see. And some can even cite examples of men employing such tactics on them.
Beyond that, though, I personally find that PUA approaches often seem to rely on stereotypical views of men and women. And that some of the tactics feel too much like game playing to me, which is a total turnoff.
Some of the craziness women have around dating is totally on display in the comments section of this blog. But men have plenty of craziness about dating as well, including their own unrealistic lists of desires, and I don’t see PUA folks addressing much of that. Confidence is great – but what happens six months, a year down the road? We need to clean up our acts for the long term, not just long enough to get ourselves girlfriends.
Alias says
This is so absolutely true! Nobody is perfect, least of all me! But when I recently met a really sweet guy, all I could focus on was how absolutely dorky and socially awkward he was. I was really attracted to him, and he’s super sweet, but still in school so he doesn’t have ANY money and he wasn’t pursuing me the way I wanted, yadda yadda yadda.
We were friends for a month and “FWB” for 2 months (my suggestion because I was attracted to him but I couldn’t see him being my boyfriend because I was too focused on his flaws!)
And as it turns out, I ended up pushing him away emotionally when he was wanting a relationship and I told him I wasn’t interested in that with him. My hard work to keep him at arm’s distance pushed him away and I could have lost him because of it.
To make a long story short, we’re now exclusive and he told me he loves me for the first time the other night. He’s far from perfect and I don’t know where this is going yet, but it’s early days. I do know he loves me for ME, he’s not a player, and he’s a great catch. I wouldn’t have been able to see that if my therapist hadn’t encouraged me to give him a chance. I was more focused on the charmers, who did and said all the “right” things, but who didn’t really care about me as a person. He’s a bit of a diamond-in-the-rough but there’s definitely a diamond in there. And I would have missed it and chosen some “fool’s gold” instead if I hadn’t given him a chance.
Alias says
Oh, and when a man does the things he “should” be doing, show appreciation! Yes, he “should” be paying for dates and calling and doing sweet things. But he doesn’t have to. Positive reinforcement works wonders. When you appreciate the little things he does for you, he WANTS to do more of those things! If you brush it off as things he should be doing anyway, and take him for granted, he’s not going to be so enthusiastic about trying to please you. A little appreciation goes a LONG way with men.
Michael17 says
nathan #60: True, the Community is indeed a mixed bag. Many of the tactics involving meeting women via cold approach work great in big cities and work less well in small towns, where people see you around and you might be known as “the weird guy”. Also, indeed pickup and attraction skills aren’t the end-all be-all.
But I still feel that guys would benefit from this kind of coaching, and as many of the guys who would seek coaching are intent on getting into a relationship, so would women benefit from these guys seeking it out, actually.
I really like Alias’ post. Kudos to her for giving her now-boyfriend a chance when they first met. But if I am reading it right, she nearly did not give him a chance except that her therapist pushed her into doing so. Sad to say, I think this is very typical–most women, who are otherwise great underneath it all, put so much stock in the whole “chemistry” thing that you either make it happen in one date or that’s it. A “nice” time or a “good” time just won’t cut it. As guys, that is the reality we have to work with. If we do the online thing especially, we have to have our “dating skills” down or there is no second date.
Annie says
@59
I think the whole chemistry thing is a HUGE Farce.
I think part of the “need” for immediate chemistry comes from the belief that people have to sleep together almost immediately, so they look for the person who makes them tingle straight away.
Problem with that is, chemistry(or at least the best kind) is that which grows over time not that which happens immediately.
One frustration that I have had with dating in my country is the HUGE expection that sex will happen immediately. And I may like a man, but I dont’ know him well enough yet to know wether I am attracted to him. Sounds odd, but I’ve been friends with some men for quite a while, and as I grow to know them, they suddenly become attractive to me. It might take 1 month, it might take 3 months. At first, I feel very little sexually and then …whamo…chemistry.
So now I pretty much ignore chemistry(that tingly excitment you feel when you think you might want to desire some-one and have them desire you), and focus on character. Chemistry comes surprisngly swift when a man has a good character. At least then it’s based on something real and not an illusion.
So I guess my point is, try not to worry too much if a woman doesn’t go on a 2nd date with you out of chemistry. Most men don’t give off that vibe anyway when they first meet a woman, and if women expect that, then they are making a big mistake. Try not to take it personally.
JerseyGirl says
Karl R49
Do you really think people bring their “A game” on a first date?
Enough not to flirt with other women Karl. If we are on our very first date and your flirting with another woman, it signals to me that this man isn’t really interested in me. Why would I go back for more? Not having perfect conversatoin or not making the right amount of eye contact are different to me then flirting.
Karl R
49Do the things the man does to impress you really end up being the things that matter a year or so down the road?
Sometimes yes. If they are sincere things. I am not talking about demanding flowers or expensive dinners on the first date. Just a general respect and treating me like a girl would be nice.
I think the whole “flirting with the waitress” thing got so commented on because it clearly struct a nerve with someone of us.
Sayanta says
Annie
Just out of curiosity, which country are you talking about?
Trenia says
An older man is his 60’s once told me that women build a case for the guy they want to be with, but men don’t build cases for women, either he’s into her or he’s not and that’s typically how a man makes his decisions about the woman he’s going to be with.
I think the overall message of this post is clear, don’t write someone off for the little things, I get it and I also think it’s a great point. What’s challenging is when we as women don’t get the same consideration from men. So if you’ve got a few pounds to lose or you don’t have boobs like a porn star, some men write you off despite having a decent first date. The other issue is when two people see the same situation in different ways. For example, if a man appears to be flirtatious with the waitress men don’t think it’s a big deal, while most women, at least on this forum, would be bothered by it. So what should be done? Who’s right and who’s wrong, when the two people involved clearly feel differently about the issue? What typically happens is women are told to overlook it, he might be a great guy. Men are rarely told to overlook something they perceive as a woman’s flaw, particularly if it has to do with her appearance. I use this example because men tend to be more picky about how a woman looks while women are more picky about personality, dress, demeanor, opening car doors, etc…
I think some of the women here keep bringing up the point, “what about the men?” because we aren’t dating in a vacuum and its hard to date and be told we’re still single because we don’t understand men, when most men don’t really care or work to understand us. Most men are perfectly content just showing up, as is, and seeing where things go. I just think having to constantly be aware of how men think, behave and act can start to make women a little loopy after a while; the load is just too heavy to have to deal with the stuff in your own mind and try to lift his stuff too. I think most of us come to this blog because we are looking for tips on finding love, but it would be great to know that a man would be willing to meet us half way.
nathan says
Trenia, it really gets old to hear women saying things like “most men don’t really care or work to understand us.” You’re right that a lot of guys have unrealistic standards around looks, but that doesn’t translate into most men don’t make any effort to get to know women.
Nicole says
@Trenia #67
I’m not sure it’s fair or accurate to say that “men don’t get told” anything. In the case of this blog, and perhaps in the case of dating in general, maybe more women are reading the books and asking the questions, but I’m pretty sure that when men ask the questions, they are given the same answers.
Most of the people on this blog are women. And a lot of the questions come from women.
I think that everyone has probably been told at some point that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Complaining over and over about what men won’t do and don’t ask doesn’t change anything.
And in the end, we shouldn’t spend time griping about the things that we cannot change. Men are visual and don’t tend to compromise on that. And yeah, a lot of them will luck out and get the dream girl b/c women will think about it and figure out that the list of “must-haves” is really just a lot of “nice to haves.”
But some men are self-aware and figure a lot of this out and change their behavior too, and some are here trying to learn. At least acknowledge that.
And in a game of chicken, if no one pulls to the side then everyone dies.
Jadafisk says
“Men are visual and don’t tend to compromise on that.”
But they do, all of the time. Look at some wedding photos once in a while. Most of the brides won’t be raving beauties or sex goddesses – they’re a slice of the general population in their age range. Either men are WAY more varied in their tastes than we’re – and even they themselves – are led to believe, or they compromise, too. It’s good news or… some more good news.
JerseyGirl says
Trenia that was very nicely articulated and I couldn’t agree more with just about everything you said.
I don’t think women are “complaining” for the sake of complaining alone. I think that women are just articulating points that are important to them. I dislike the idea that women articulating things that are important to them is just “complaining”.
Clearly the waitress thing touched on something for a number of women here as Nathan pointed out. We are being told to ignore that because he might be a decent guy. Maybe he is a decent guy. But if I go out on a first date with a man, don’t offer to pay, even if I am not trying to purposely bow out of it, that still reflects badly on me. Just recently I went out on a date where we met up for a quick bite to eat during lunch. We went to a pizza place and I wasn’t really thinking as we got up to leave and I started heading for the door while my date went to pay. I felt like such a jerk! I wasn’t making the assumption he should pay. I just forgot. I hurried back and apologized and offered to chip in my half but I think the damage was already done. I looked rude. Flirting with a waitress might be innocent, but it’s not completely harmless. Just like me forgetting about paying and just starting to walk away. It was innocent, but not harmless.
I already kind of think that dating isn’t what it use to be when my mom was dating. I don’t want to have to keep giving up ways I want to be treated little by little just to make a guy happy.
Nicole says
@Jadafisk #70. My vote would be that men have varied tastes. I still would say visual but people kind of overestimate the idea that because a man might have one favored look, he can’t like anything else. I also think it’s what threatens a lot of women about porn. I think that in an industry where so many people are surgically enhanced to the point of being caricatures of real women, the average woman assumes that it means that she’s not attractive enough. Simply put, even if redheads are your favorite, I’m sure you might still be happy marrying a brunette (I don’t know if you are male or female).
Clearly some men have a type and don’t deviate, but others will date women of various colors, ages, and shapes.
Plus, I think we should all be careful about assigning our own ideals about attractiveness. So clearly just because you think the bride is ugly, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think that he is “settling.”
Annie says
@66
Australia 🙂
Annie says
@67
You are not being asked to change for men, nor are you being asked to tolerate bad behaviour.
You are being asked to understand where the men are coming from, and percieve them more correctly. The very thing we would like men to do for us.
And I can say with absolute certainty that many, many, MANY men are trying to understand women. Just because they don’t ‘get’ us yet, or aren’t behaving exactly how we’d like, doesn’t mean they are not trying.
The more I learn about how men are, the way they communicate, what is important to them..the more I realize how much they often really do try. Men like women, more than women realize. And it is actually kind of sad that we dont’ alway’s notice it. We’d probably be much happier and feel more loved if we did.
Annie says
@71
You can spend your life articulating your points.
Or you can listen.
Your points have been heard and they are being responded to. A person hearing you and listening to you, is not the same as a person agreeing with you. They may just be telling you the truth. Why is the truth so daunting?
Jadafisk says
I’m not saying ugly, I’m saying average-looking, like most people. Brides are regular people and not the creme de la creme of society in general or womanhood in particular. Most people aren’t highly selective regarding their mate choices, even for lifetime partnerships. There seems to be no way to reconcile the vaunted refusal of men to compromise on X with marriage statistics. If there were, our system would seem nearly perfect, with “a place for everything and everything in its place.”
JerseyGirl says
Annie, thank you. I will spend my life articulating my points. Isn’t that what we all do anyway? You are arcitulating your points too yes? As for what the “truth” is, I get the impression that you think your opinion is truth and mine isn’t. And I don’t see it that way. I don’t see it as a matter of truth as i do what we as indivdual people need within a relationship that might be different from each other. Maybe you wouldn’t care if your partner flirted with waitresses and that’s fine. That’s about you and the person you are. Just as my desire not to be with a man that flirts with waitresses is about me and the person I am. Your truth doesn’t have to be my truth.
I am not saying that women can’t cut men some slack. But things like flirting with a waitress is clearly something a few women were bothered by. And I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
Jadafisk, it’s interesting that you said, ” If there were, our system would seem nearly perfect, with “a place for everything and everything in its place.” While there are many brides that are just regular women, it does seem that men already do put women in little boxes or “places”. Most men spend their whole lives to varying degrees looking at porn despite being married to a woman they love. So it does seem to me that men already have different places for women. Real women that get to be the ones to give him love, and then porn women,that sataisfy clearly a desire that his real life partner can’t. Not exactly the ideal picture if you ask me. but that is the reality.
Sayanta says
Jersey Girl-
What about women who look at porn? Both in straight and lesbian couples? Or gay men who look at porn? In the latter, obviously it doesn’t become a “feminist” issue anymore.
Nicole says
I’m not sure what some of these women find so threatening about porn. It’s fantasy. And as Sayanta said, women consume porn, and I think the numbers are increasing because more porn is being made by women and for women (so I’m guessing more realistic depictions, more realistic bodies, and more emphasis on seduction and romance).
At any rate, it’s so odd that someone would be threated by a picture or computer screen. I think it’s totally normal and healthy and if it helps turn the man on, better for the real life lady he’s with.
m says
EMK @ 25 –
“Whenever I offer advice to a woman about how she could adjust, certain women (like you) invariably come back with the “what about men?!”
Because when it’s the women that have to do all the adjusting, it becomes exhausting, demoralizing, and not fair to the women — especially when it’s never suggested that men compromise or adjust.
That’s how it’s “excessively male-friendly”, even if it is advice for women.
Actually, *especially* since it’s advice for women.
Also, for all of you saying Lisa M. “hates men”, please consider the possibility you’re seeing what you want to see. She said she doesn’t enjoy dating, which is a completely different thing.
And if, in fact, the prevailing POV is that a woman has to do *all* the “adjusting”, with *no* perceptible benefit as a result of all that “adjusting” … well, then what reasonable woman wouldn’t hate it?
Evan Marc Katz says
@m – for the last time: telling MEN to adjust on a site that’s designed to give WOMEN advice is pointless. I suggest you go read Charles J Orlando’s “The Trouble With Women… is Men”, which will provide you all the validation you need as you continue to remind me on every post that anything I tell women should really turn into advice for men.
Alas, since you’re not going to get such satisfaction here, you can stop complaining every single time I tell women to change.
For Chrissakes, that’s my JOB. Advice is for the woman who is asking, not for the men who aren’t. Sheesh. How hard is this to understand?
m says
I also don’t think that just because someone hates dating, that it’s unreasonable for them to look to advice repositories exactly like this for tips and suggestions on how to possibly improve the situation.
After all, isn’t that the whole point of what the blog and coaching are supposed to be for? 🙂
m says
@50 –
“Have you wondered why a man would read a blog for “strong, smart, successful women?” Simple. The posts here are more useful to me as a relationship-oriented man than competing sites for men.”
*nods*
I’ve mentioned that more than once here. Makes perfect sense to me … especially in light of what you contrast it with, Node.
Annie says
@77
There’s nothing wrong with articulating a point, but when the same thing gets said over and over(Why are women asked to change?) and the same response is given over and over(IE No-ones asking you to change who you are fundamentally) I really do wonder why the same people keep asking that question.Now it’s a free world, but what’s the point?
I guess the only “change” that IS being asked of us, is to try and understand men, accept them for who they are. That might be a bit of a lifelong journey for some of us but accepting men for who they are, isn’t the same as changing who we are.
Sayanta says
Annie
Some people just like to whine a lot. What can I say? Lol
JerseyGirl says
Sayanta, why don’t we try to listen to each other even if we disagree and not degrade people to just “whining” because we don’t like what they have to say. To address your earlier comments, I certainly am not saying that straight women don’t watch porn. And I never said it was a “feminist” issue. I don’t think it is. I think it’s a human one!
Nicole, I’m not sure what people find threatening when porn is talked about more then the obligatory “porn is great” idea. People seem to think porn can only be discussed in terms of security or insecurity and falsely assume that those that like porn are completely secure and those that don’t like porn must be because of insecurity and I think that’s a narrow idea.
I however will say that sure, some portion of the porn debate can be about insecurity. And I think that’s natural. Hey, if we are really going to examine porn, porn is all about male insecurity just as much as it can be about female insecurity. Except for men, it’s all about taking away all the ways men feel insecure. All the men in porn always perform. All the men in porn always get the girl. For the most part the women fit into a very narrow ideal of beauty and you can be a fat,old or bald man and still get the young beauty. And the women love every little thing the man does to them even though he doesn’t really have to work that hard to do it. All those factors are about the way men feel insecure in their daily lives when dealing with women. For women, it’s about all the ideals men place on them, their actions and bodies that are so over the top in porn that they think they can’t meet that ideal. And you know what? They can’t. I would safely bet you wouldn’t mock men for having natural feelings of insecurity in dealing with women. Why do the same with porn? If you truly believe your own argument that it was *just* “a picture or computer screen” and therefore people shouldn’t feel threatend by it, then wouldn’t you also believe that because it is just “a picture or computer screen”, that people shouldn’t get turned on by it either? Yes, porn is a projected image on a screen or picture. But that doesn’t stop it from drawing sexual and other feelings about it toward it.
Annie, I didn’t ask “why are women asked to change”. I think women should grown and change. But not when it comes at the cost of ways they want to be treated. Clearly the whole flirting with a waitress on a date made enough women comment on it that it really can’t be that unreasonable to not like that kind of behavior. Again, if that’s not something that would bother you, then that’s cool. But not everyone has to agree on that. What does it mean anyway when we say “accepting a man for who he is?” Each man is different anyway right? Certainly there are a lot of men that wouldn’t flirt with a waitress right? And I am sure there is a woman for him in turn. I don’t think women are upset at the idea of having to grow and change. I think it’s the differences in some of the things we are being asked to compromise on. I think the whole flirting with a waitress thing is just a matter of respect for a lot of women.
Let me ask some of the ladies that are currently in long term relationships. Did your man flirt with other women on the first few dates you went on? Do they flirt with women now?
Annie says
@86
Of course we do want to be treated well. Absolutely.
I find understanding why men do what they do, has really helped me to see men in a very different light.
If a man flirts with a waitress, he may just be the kind of male that genuinely adores all women and likes to see them smile. He could just be a right royal charmer.
For me to say he should curb his natural charm, so that I feel respected imo, is to actually disrespect him for who he is.
The hard part for us women, is in trying to know the difference between the good blokes and the not so good ones. We’ve been hurt in the past and get so defensive that we are looking for men to constantly prove themselves to us. It’s not really very fair though.
Annie says
@86
On the porn front, I tend to agree with you on this one. Can any woman honestly feel as though it is SHE being desired, when a man is simply using her body to masturbate with while he fantasies about some-body else?
Porn doesn’t make me feel insecure so much but I do think it has an effect on both male and female sexuality and it’s use should at least be limited if some-one wants to maintain a healthy sexual connection with their partner.
Sayanta says
Annie
But lots of women fantasize that way too- theyre just not as in your face about it as men are
Selena says
@#87
Annie, are you able to distinguish charm (or courtesy, or friendliness) from overt flirting? I can, and I’m willing to give the benefit of doubt that the women who’ve commented can too.
It’s not about disrespecting someone for who they are, it’s about recognizing inappropriate, or disrespectful behavior rather than choosing to overlook it. This is how one determines the good blokes from the not so good ones – observation.
Bettina says
I’m with Lisa M. and JerseyGirl!!! I’m with them!!!
Yes, I’m in a LTR. No, he doesn’t flirt with anyone (not even me–ha!!). No, he doesn’t use magazines/internet for solitary pleasure–and my last LT boyfriend didn’t, either. Both of them were raised in places were that type of stuff was banned and saw it first as adults after moving to the US. They were shocked and repulsed by it and never developed a taste for it. Both of them: very hot and physically sensitive/responsive in a way that I never found in your typical American guy who learned about the female body from “a picture or a computer screen.” They learned from real women in real relationships. I’m sure there was fumbling at first–and I have been the benficiary of it (thank you thank you thank you!!).
So, yeah. For me certain things are red flags and I’m sure that guys would be upset if I said that X, Y, Z were red flags for me and so no, I won’t give you the time of day. I don’t care because I know how to pick ’em. Took me awhile as I, too, fumbled about. But at the end of the day I have to live with myself and my choices, so I’m not going to go against what I know is right for me just because someone has a problem with it. If a guy has a problem with what I consider to be the red flags of male behavior, he can go find the women who don’t care if he uses pictures/computers to get off, flirts with other women, cheats, etc.
Plenty of fish in the sea.
nathan says
I continue to find it funny that this entire post has mostly turned into a debate about a single, mostly throw away example that Evan offered. It makes sense to me that some women would find flirting with a waitress problematic – I might find the same behavior from a woman I’m on a date with questionable as well.
However, it really seems like fixating on that single example has made some of you forget the larger points of Evan’s post, which remain valid for men and women in the dating world. And it’s disappointing to watch generalizations about men get thrown about as if they are the gospel truth. Meanwhile, the women who are doing so I’m guessing would be entirely pissed off if I, or other guys on here, threw around gross generalizations about women.
You might notice that whenever I offer some larger point, I qualify it with less totalizing words like “some women” or “some of the women on here” because I don’t see anything as a trait common to large swaths of a single gender. All that men (or women) are “hardwired” to do this, and think that kind of talk is a really easy way to ignore the real, living and breathing individual right in front of you.
Sometimes, it’s useful to offer generalized observations and points about trends. But when it turns into a way to place large groups of people into “types” or as a method of denigration, then something is screwed up. I can imagine that none of the women on here want to be viewed as just “a type” or as being “just like every other women.” Well, neither, I imagine, do any of the men.
Karl R says
m said: (#80)
“when it’s the women that have to do all the adjusting, it becomes exhausting, demoralizing, and not fair to the women – especially when it’s never suggested that men compromise or adjust.”
There are site that provide dating advice to men. They are primarily geared toward pick up artists (PUAs for short). Those sites suggest to the men that they should change what they’re doing to get women. Those sites never suggest that women should change to accomodate men.
In order to improve my dating success (as a man), I changed what I did. I made those changes to benefit myself. I didn’t change to benefit women, and I’m not certain that any woman (including my fiancée) benefitted from the changes.
The PUAs use women’s habits (pursuing alpha males, for example) to benefit themselves. And they’re quite willing to do it to your detriment.
If you do the changing, then you can ensure that you benefit from those changes.
How are the changes that the PUAs make more fair to women than the suggestions that Evan makes? How are they less demoralizing?
Evan is giving advice for how you can get a good relationship with a good man. I could care less whether you get a good relationship. So why should I change? What’s in it for me?
Are you willing to change what you’re doing so dating becomes more fair for nerdy guys with no game?
Why do you expect men to change to make dating more fair for you?
Selena says
The problem with the “throw away examples” is that they may not always be examples of cluelessness as EMK suggests, but red flags that warn of worse behavior up ahead.
Say someone, man, or woman noticed their date liked to flirt heavily with others early on. They ignored it, rationalizing “We all have flaws” , but came to find out that person was rude, disrespectful, perhaps turned out to be an attention whore, or a cheater. When they see the same behavior in a new person they are dating are they to pretend to ignore it ? Might they decide instead, “Eh…I don’t want to go down that road again, see ya”?
Similarly, there is a difference between someone who matter-of-factly mentions the demise of a previous relationship and one who goes on and on about their *evil* ex on a first date. The latter is still probably struggling with their baggage under both arms, dropping it, tripping over it, picking it back up. Emotionally they have unfinished business, and people with emotional unfinished business do not tend to make the best partners.
They may be the ones who are most critical of their new date, constantly comparing them to the ex, freaking at anything remotely resembling something their ex said or did. And it sometimes happens after sticking with one of these temporarily damaged souls, they decide when they are further healed they aren’t into you after all. You were their transitional relationship – thanks for all the free therapy!
They may be a great person, but not a great partner for another 6 mos. or so.
I so agree the most enjoyable way to approach dating is with an open mind and an open heart. Look for the positive qualites, don’t get caught up in dissecting for flaws. Sit back, relax, observe. And through your observation you will learn to distinguish between genuine cluelessness and boundaries being stepped on and over. You ignore the red flags, you know what happens.
Bettina says
Nathan @92: I thought the point of this blog was for women to find out how men think. That statement alone implies generalizations about men and presumes that all men think in some similar fashion, doesn’t it? Is it really your experience of this blog that the full range of the male POV is respresented here?
nathan says
I don’t think the wide range of male POV is represented here. Evan is trying to offer insight particularly into men who are keen on long term, committed relationships.
He’s not really focusing on how men who are only looking for flings or casual relationships are thinking or acting. He’s not giving the player point of view, or the guy who’s intent on cheating, or the loner dude voice. Nor are most of the male commenters on here. And I’d also say that this isn’t the blog to find teenage and early 20s male voices on dating and relationships either. So, no – it’s not representative of the wide range of male viewpoints. But I do think it’s offering fairly accurate insight into how men looking for commitment might think, feel, and behave.
And honestly, I’m responding to the strongly negative broad strokes about men that routinely appear in the comments section. Like these:
“Most men spend their whole lives to varying degrees looking at porn despite being married to a woman they love.”
“its hard to date and be told we’re still single because we don’t understand men, when most men don’t really care or work to understand us.”
Almost every long thread on here contains some of these. And having been on an awful lot of dates in the past decade or so, I have run into some of these same sweeping, negative generalizations coming from women I’m on dates with. Which makes me wonder why they are even bothering, if they think most men are liars, cheaters, clueless, sex-crazy, or whatever.
It’s no different than the men that occasionally come on here ranting about how “all the women they meet” are gold-diggers, or liars, or superficial, or whatever. If you hold those kind of views, you’re going to have a hell of a time finding a good match, and having a healthy, happy relationship.
nathan says
Selena, your comment at 94 would make a good companion to EMK’s post because it offers the flip side of being careful to not rationalize or ignore things that might be major issues. To me, with those kind of flags, it’s most important to keep paying attention, seeing if it’s a problem pattern or not.
JerseyGirl says
Annie, I don’t really think flirting is a barometer for the amount of respect or love someone has for the gender they are flirting with. Usually flirting is about making yourself feel good through the response/validation you receive from someone else. Flirty people don’t necessarily like members of the gender they are flirting with. Charming people don’t even necessarily like members of the gender they are charming. They like the validation they receive from it. Of course, that’s not to say flirty and/or charming people dislike people either or don’t infact just like to flirt and charm playfully. It’s just not really a great indicator on how much love a man might truly feel for the female gender. I think a man that helps women of all ages, non sexually, would be a greater indicator of a man that truly valued women over one that likes to flirt with them. But you are clearly a woman who doesn’t mind a flirty man and there is nothing wrong with that. There are men for you. Some women don’t want to be with a man like that and there is nothing wrong with that either.
BeenThereDoneThat says
I am with Nathan. I get really defensive when someone says “all women . . . ” and then trots out some negative thing. Or even if they say “women” such as JB’s comment. I want to defend myself and say “SOME women, maybe A LOT of women; but certainly NOT ALL women because I personally know of at least one who isn’t that way – ME.” My goal then becomes to defend.
Most of the time, though, I realize no one on this board knows me personally, hasn’t been on a date with me, and really doesn’t know me. So if their experience is “all”; then I just think that maybe this person is attracted to that type and as such, do see it in a “a lot” or even “all” of the women they know.
And also, I realize that if I get defensive about something – then I am missing the forest because of the trees. And I’d rather learn than defend. So I type my defend comments and then delete, delete, delete.
Bettina says
I don’t think the views on here are even representative of men looking for long-term, committed relationships. I mean, that’s a pretty broad group. I know men who are in committed LTRs who don’t want to marry but are faithful; men in LTRs who are married and committed but aren’t faithful; men who follow the dictates of their religion regarding LTRs; atheists in LTRs who rant against any religious definitions of, well, anything; men in committed LTRs who are closeted homosexuals; men in committed LTRs who are deeply into p*rn; men in committed LTRs who aren’t and get insulted by the suggestion that all men are into it; men in committed LTRs who are feminists; men in committed LTRs who insist on strict gender definitions; househusbands; deadbeat dads; abusive drug addicts; self-less family men; selfish family men–I mean, the list goes on. At some point they were all looking. For different things.
But I tend to get around a lot. I know lots of different types of men.
Selena says
@Nathan #97:
I see this article, and much of EMK’s work as the simple advice “Don’t Jump to Judgement”. And I agree with that.
I just weight it with experience and intuition as well.
nathan says
Bettina,
I think that just proves my point even more that negative stereotyping and negative generalizing about men (or women) is hugely problematic. Because it tends to turn conversations into sparing matches filled with defensiveness.
There are lots of ways to disagree, share very different views on the same topic, or to express how your experience has been widely different from others without resorting to demonizing or totalizing statements. I have been a part of, and have seen, excellent conversations on here and other sites where people with very different views actually talked to each other, even debated with each other, but in ways that kept the conversation going, instead of shutting it down.
And I agree with you that even when it comes to men looking for commitment, there’s a lot of variation. My own views often break with old gender norms, for example, so that can put me at odds with men who are more into maintaining specific gender-based roles.
Annie says
@89
Oh I agree that women are doing that to. I actually think this is a bit of a problem, with this lust/sexual based society we’ve created. I don’t think our sexuality is ending up in a healthy place.
So you have 2 people, who both want to feel desired, neither of them actually desiring each other, but using each other’s bodies to fantasize about some-one else.
We think it’s okay, but is it really? It is getting to a point where both men and women almost need to ‘perform’ for each other because otherwise arousal doesn’t happen. Is this really natural for human beings?
I just think we’ve created a culture of almost sexual ADD, and people are having very disconnected sex due to the overstimulation they recieve either by way too many casual encounters, or porn. Sex is now attention based and lust based and people are getting quickly bored with each other. Sex no longer creates the bond between couples like it used to, hence the constant term of “Servicing my sexual needs”.
Is this what we REALLY want? I don’t know…but I think we taken the “sacredness” out of sex and it’s become quite Banal. I’m not sure I like that so much but I also don’t really have any answers either.
Annie says
@91
Bingo, that’s “exactly” what I’m talking about. You really can tell the difference between people that have been raised on a diet of sexual stimulation and those that still associate sex with a particular person and how they feel about that person.
Those raised on that diet, are not focused on the person they are with, but the stimulation they’d like to recieve. It’s very disconnected sex.
Bettina says
Annie@104: Agreed. I’ve always been able to tell, and it’s not just in the private bedroom moments. There are small clues in the way that the guy responds to other women and how he talks about women. It’s cliche to use the word “objectification,” but that’s the best word. Some men talk about women as if they’re things to be consumed or an assemblage of body parts that either please or don’t please. They don’t even realize they’re doing it, so prevalent is this kind of expression.
Nathan@102: Again, I do find that the advice to women on this site is sometimes presented as “one size fits all,” and so it doesn’t usually resonate with me. Just as men are different and looking for different things, so are women. The words “commitment,” “love,” “marriage,” “fidelity,” and “long term” don’t mean the same thing to everyone, and not every woman is looking for those things anyway. So if a woman on here doesn’t agree with the blog definition of these things, she gets attacked as being “sour” or “man-hating” or whatever, and then told she’s never going to “find love” with that attitude. I disagree, based on what I’ve seen in operation in the real world. Though I do agree that she won’t find love on this blog. 🙂
I don’t think it’s that hard to find someone to marry, and I don’t think that getting married is any great accomplishment in and of itself. So the message “do this and you’ll find the one” doesn’t do it for me. My life is a whole lot more complicated than that, and my rewards for a life well lived come in many guises.
The hardest thing is sorting through all of the pressures in one’s life to be a certain way and deciding what is right for you. The next step is fostering relationships that support and affirm and complement the way you want to be in the world (by “relationships” I mean all sorts of them–not just a romantic one).
nathan says
Well, I can understand where you are coming from. I have also received my share of flack on here for having “non-traditional” views about relationships – romantic and otherwise. In fact, I have gone back and forth about marriage and my desire for it my entire adult life. Furthermore, I have had short term relationships with women that were wonderful as they were, and when they ended, it was just fine. At this point in my life, I’m looking for someone for the long run. But how that ends up being in terms of the commitment has yet to be determined.
You may see my comments as defending a single approach to all these issues, but they are absolutely not that. However, there is a difference between presenting a different viewpoint or disagreeing with an approach offered, and simply saying things like “most men are cheaters” or “men don’t ever compromise.” The latter is more common on here than the former.
I don’t see a lot of women coming on here and saying “I don’t want to get married and so I disagree with your points about the steps to finding a man because of X,Y and Z.” Or “I don’t think love is bound to being with a single person, so I disagree with this.” I kind of wish there were more of this, personally.
What is more common are generalized statements about men thinking and behaving badly, as well as some men making generalized statements about women thinking and behaving badly – which in both cases, are often more of a hindrance than a help for people in actual dating situations.
Annie says
@105
Interesting. I find it takes quite a while for me to figure out if a man see’s “body parts” or a female. They can often see the female in front of them as a person but as soon as there’s something physical happening it seems to change.
I’m not so good at picking them, but I can tell once things get physical. I’d really like to know how to pick that upfront, because I really don’t want to be with some-one like that and waste my time.
So any advice on picking them upfront would be welcomed 🙂
Jack says
I think a lot of single Men are frogs and need to be trained into Princes – better boyfriends and better husbands. The old saying “All the Good Men are Married” is true because these Men have figured it out and have learned how to be Attractive to women, Good Boyfriends and Good Husbands. A Single girl may expect a new Man to be “perfect” at first meeting, but that is dismissing the clueless, boring, unattractive guys who are capable of being perfect in the future. I think women have unrealistic expectations of Prince Charming; while Men are easier to please in the short term. I think that smart, strong women may be seen as unaccomodating if they can’t display a nurturing and motherly persona necessary to get married and find a husband.
Jadafisk says
But… we’re told to accept men as they are, and not to try and change them or waste time waiting for them to change.
starthrower68 says
you are all making some very good points. with regard to the “one size fits all” approach, i’m pretty sure we all recognize that life is more complicated. but when you’re speaking to a large number of people all at once you have to generalize. its like the buffet that can’t season the food too much as it has to be acceptable for a wide range of diets and tastes.
Jason says
@109 – It depends on what a women would consider a dealbreaker for a guy: cheating, money, looks. There are a lot of clueless, selfish guys out there who would be willing to learn and change for the right woman. If someone is a poor, but good looking unemployed actor, it doesn’t mean he’s always going to be poor, he may not have found the right profession. If someone is ugly, yet is rich enough to provide for a wife and children, then he is good husband material. No one is going to be perfect at the First Date, its a growing process.
Jason says
@107 – you can try not getting physical by at least the 3rd date or longer. Then at least you can have a human conversation with a guy instead of just a physical relationship.