Is Honesty Always the Best Policy When Not Accepting a Second Date?

Thanks for your advice! I’ve made many of my gal pals start to follow you and read your articles/blogs! I haven’t heard of one of them not liking/disagreeing with the information that they read! Since listening to your CDs (Finding the One Online), ebook (Why He Disappeared), I have put myself back out there on the online platform. I have created a profile and have had more emails/phone calls/dates within the last month than I have had in the last few months. It’s a breath of fresh air to meet others that I wouldn’t have met if I wasn’t on-line.

Like most of your readers, I am a strong, independent woman who likes the alpha male persona and am working on many of the things that strong, successful, independent women tend to need assistance with when dating. I was recently on a second date with at guy (the first date was good; good conversation, tried to figure out if I was attracted to him or not, had fun, etc.). He asked me out for a second date and I accepted. But during the second date I realized that I wasn’t at the same level as he was with me. He asked me if “I dated a lot” (we met on Match.com) and told me that I was “the third girl in the last year that he asked out on a second date” (pedestal principle??). He told me that his mother raised him to not date more than one person at a time. I was sitting there sipping my beer wondering what I was supposed to say to these statements after only knowing this guy for a total of maybe 5 hours of my life. I thanked him for his honesty and thanked him for the two dates. I then tried my best to express my true feelings without being a jerk and explained that I wasn’t sure where I fell but I knew that I wasn’t on the same level as he was. His body posture completely changed, told me that we really didn’t have a lot in common, refused my offers to split the bill, and basically told me to leave as he was going to grab a cab after he paid the bill.

I’ve been on the receiving end of this speech and it stinks! My question is this: How do we decline said alpha male offers for second dates, etc.? I know that I would want someone to be honest with me and we all know that honesty can hurt. I’m trying to be honest and not do the “fade away” and not talk to them (which has happened to me many times). Is honesty the best policy when it comes to not being that into the alpha male that you’re on a date with? What are some tips/strategies to best go about this topic?

Thanks Evan and looking forward to your thoughts and advice!

-Michelle

There’s a lot in this question, and I’m not even sure where to begin.

First of all, it’s not remotely apparent that your date was an “alpha” male.

    A) You ARE attracted to the alpha male because he’s so blindly confident in himself that it never occurs to him that you wouldn’t like him. The fact that you weren’t sure if you were attracted to him tells me that he probably wasn’t that alpha.
    B) His behavior plays as insecure, not alpha. Asking you who you were dating after two dates? Pressuring you to commit to him? Dropping in mentions of his mom’s philosophy on dating? Alpha males have harems. This guy just had an unrequited crush.

You’re going to have to discuss it with him and answer his questions, when there’s really nothing to say, other than “I’m not feeling it.”

But classifying what kind of guy you just rejected was not your real question. You wanted to know the best way to reject a guy. I’m sure I wrote about it before, but I’m too lazy to look it up and link to it. So here goes:

Try the truth.

I find it’s the easiest thing to remember, and people tend to appreciate it since it’s so rarely given.

There are generally two scenarios for a guy asking you out on an unwanted date.

He’ll either do it ON the date or AFTER the date.

If he does it on the date, I would tell him to follow up with you later this week when you’re in front of your work calendar. This doesn’t contradict “the truth”; if anything, it buys you time so you don’t have to stab him in the chest while he’s on the date with you. Then, you can hug him good bye, say you had fun, and when he says he’ll follow up with you later, you say “great.” That’s just being polite.

Now, when you get home, you can write him an email with the honest version of what you’re really feeling. Maybe send it out the next day.

Dear Andy,

Thanks for taking me out last night. The food was delicious and the conversation was excellent. I really appreciate it. However, I’m not feeling the chemistry necessary to move things to the next level. I think you’re a really great and you’re going to make some woman very happy one day. Best of luck in your search.

Jessica

Ta-da! Problem solved.

Now, if a guy presses you on the date to give him an answer to whether he’s going to see you again, and you’re not feeling it and can’t get out of it, the same answer applies. Problem is, you’re trapped and you’re going to have to discuss it with him and answer his questions, when there’s really nothing to say, other than “I’m not feeling it.”

Treat men the way you’d want to be treated, and you’ll probably do a pretty fair job of letting them down easy.

In short, the best rejection policy is to write him an email proactively, the day after the date, regardless of whether he’s asked you out or not.

The worst rejection policy is to a) ignore him and hope he gets the hint or b) to volunteer WHY you don’t like him directly on the date, which is kind of scarring.

In other words, treat men the way you’d want to be treated, and you’ll probably do a pretty fair job of letting them down easy.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Richard

    Thank you so much, Evan.

    What you’ve written is the advice I’ve been giving women when I hear them say they don’t want to go out with a guy again. Very often I hear them say that they’ll just ignore him and hope he gets the hint.

    This has happened to me a lot as well. We are all adults and the truth should not be scary.

    I understand that some women are afraid to tell a guy they don’t like him in case he hurts them or becomes obsessive, but the vast majority of men will not do these things.

    Men want respect, and at least to the men I know, honesty is a part of being respected. If a woman fades on me or ignores me, I find it hurts me more than if she had just told me the truth. Of course she would never know how much more hurt I am since she won’t have to see me anymore. I’ll feel that she cares so little about me that she can’t even give me a basic courtesy that I would give her. Telling the truth also provides a greater sense of closure to both parties.

    Avoiding rejecting others is just a way for people to assuage the guilt they will feel, but I feel that by avoiding this, if and/or when you see the person again, things will be very awkward. At least by saying what is on your mind, in a tactful way, you can at least face the person again and maybe things can change for the better in the future.

    Fading or giving the silent treatment just causes people to feel disrespected and it can burn bridges.

    It amazes me how many people (both men and women) get indignant when someone ignores them or treats their feelings poorly, but have no qualms whatsoever with ignoring or disrespecting others.

    Have some compassion, people.

     

    Also, I wish people would stop using this “alpha/beta” dichotomy. It’s entirely subjective and humans don’t really organize well into these categories. It’s a part of the Red Pill community and it’s based on questionable science.

    1. 1.1
      Angel

      Yes, that’s it. You expressed my exact feeling on the alpha/beta issue. People are people.

      1. 1.1.1
        Richard

        Yeah, I find that it’s far too pervasive. Even people who are not familiar with sexual and genetic studies or the Red Pill community are familiar with and use these terms.

        It’s presents problems for a number of reasons:

        1) It’s subjective. There is no universally accepted definition for what constitutes an alpha or a beta. Some traits can be considered both in different contexts and one woman’s alpha is another woman’s beta. Some in the RP community have even added extra categories to explain those even “worse” than betas: gammas, deltas, sigmas, lambdas, omegas, and zetas. And not all of these terms are universally accepted either. It’s ludicrous.

        Some of these terms are insulting to men and women because if you happen to be poor or unemployed or considered “abnormally ugly” through no fault of your own, you may get labelled as a “gamma” or “omega.” Some of the men and women who get labelled these terms are kind, generous, loving and hard working, but through some twist of genetics or fate are largely left out of the dating market and have limited or no success. Creating hierarchical labels is a slap in the face to these people who want to be happy and normal like everyone else and creates an excuse for people to be derisive, dismissive, or cruel to others who don’t fit their vision of how people should be.

        For those who throw around these terms, especially women: How would you like it if a man said you were a “beta female” and that he only dates “alpha females?” Don’t like it? You’d probably think: well, he hardly knows me. I’m far better than he thinks I am.” Well, then don’t call a man a “beta” based on one date. It’s insulting and dismissive of the many great qualities he likely has that you haven’t even bothered to discover yet.

        2) Humans don’t organize well into the categories because everyone has different learned and innate qualities that limit their abilities in certain areas. Someone is great with music and happens to get discovered by chance, so what, he’s an “alpha” now, while the guy who is just as talented but struggles to pay rent no matter how many gigs he gets is a “beta”…? It’s nonsense. Maybe you meet a guy and he’s shy around groups but he’s confident when you’re alone together. What does that make him? Alpha? Beta? How can you be sure?

        3) These terms are thrown around in the Red Pill community which is antagonistic to women, derisive to men who do not fit RP ideals, skeptical of and impatient with the dating process, antagonistic to marriage, sometimes open to intimidation tactics and the potential use of psychological and physical abuse in a relationship, and generally not open to criticism. That alone should be enough for people to not use these terms.

        4) It’s based on bad science because the terms came into common use from studies done on wolves in the 1970s and 80s. Wolves and humans are hardly alike in any way, and new evidence on wolves has come forth to show that these old studies are fairly wrong.

        1. Richard

          Check out the sheer nonsense, lack of consensus and general RP idiocy on these pages:

          I hate to post this stuff, so reject this posting if you must Evan. I will understand, but I would like to illustrate to people how strange and damaging these terms are.

          http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/are-you-alpha-beta-omega-gamma-or-sigma-male-descriptions-itt.250127262/

          http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ca/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

          These hierarchies may make sense, but I assure you they are pure nonsense and should be dismissed. Also, these sites make many erroneous assumptions about people’s sexual habits. It’s damaging to relationships and minds.

        2. jon

          I think Alpha for most people mean successful at life in one way or another.  Now, I think this woman or most women define Alpha men generally as ambitious, financially successful, rich guys.  Then, there are (rich or poor) Alpha guys who are players who date a lot of women, and are socially successful, but may not be financially successful.  Then, there are women who want Alpha men who are both financially and socially successful.  So, I would just define Alpha men as being “Charismatic Rich guys.”

    2. 1.2
      Jocelyn

      Richard,

      I am glad you gave your opinion. I think is the best policy to be honest and it doesn’t matter how many dates you have had with the person, is basic courtesy and something that a well-educated person does. Not only because you are showing self respect and respect to others, but also because that is the healthy way to move on. Why to leave people hanging wondering if this or that?

      Plain and simple. You want respect, show something too. “Respect is two-way street”.

      1. 1.2.1
        Richard

        Exactly. I am not perfect and I have sometimes hurt people by being honest with them. But by telling them how I feel, I allowed them to go find someone else who could be right for them. These people no longer resent me and if I see them I will be cordial and wish them the best.

        I try to live my life with integrity. I want what’s best for people and sometimes that means telling them what they don’t want to hear so they don’t waste time. I try my best to be as tactful as possible.

        I’ve wasted enough time in my own life and I don’t want others to make the same mistakes as me.

    3. 1.3
      Al

      I wholeheartedly agree. “Fading” away is cowardly. Men actually do that a lot for some reason. All of my single GFs complain about that. I always suspected that they were just trying to keep 2nd choice women on the line in case the first choice didn’t pan out. When someone says, “I just didn’t want to hurt your feelings” what that really means is “I didn’t want to feel uncomfortable myself so I avoided dealing with this altogether.”

       

      And you are also right about women being afraid to tell a man that she isn’t interested in a second date in person. I’ve gotten some very bad reactions so I always do it in a message afterward. Unfortunately, some guys are extremely pushy and will not let you walk away without a firm commitment, which puts the woman in a very uncomfortable position.

  2. 2
    Rebecca

    I think I’m with Evan and that my boyfriend disagrees.  I had a boy wimp out on breaking up with me in high school because he was afraid of hurting me.  Gotta give him a break for having the best of intentions and being only 18, but it was SOOOO much worse to have to figure out what he was telling me nonverbally than if he’d just come right out and said it.  So ever since I’ve considered it the kindest thing to do to tell a man as gently but as directly as I can that I’m just not feeling it.  I prefer face-to-face over email, too, although if I don’t know a guy well enough to know whether he’ll take it with simple disappointment or entitled rage then I might choose a safe distance.

    But here’s my boyfriend’s point of view, which I guess is the result of having been stuck doing the asking a lot more than I have:  he likes it when a woman makes excuses for why she won’t go out with him.  He claims if he approaches a woman at a bar and she says she has a boyfriend, that everyone knows the issue isn’t that she has a boyfriend, but it’s just a kindler, gentler let down than “no thanks.”  He thinks my “that’s flattering but no thank you,” is a little harsh.  So now I’m less sure of myself.  Maybe I’ll get lucky and never have to reject a second date again?  Fingers crossed.

    Oh, I total agree with Richard about this alpha beta stuff.

  3. 3
    Karmic Equation

    I’ve had to turn down date 2 on date 1 twice. I felt no spark with one guy. But we had a great conversation over lunch. He was  a really good guy. Sold his house and moved in to take care of his ailing parents, who lived over 1.5 hours from where he worked. I thought he was such a stand up guy. But I felt no attraction for him. So when he asked “Would you like to do this again?” I looked him in the eye, made an “I’m sorry” face, and shook my head sadly but firmly and changed the subject to something else. He took it well. Walked me back to my car. I gave him a hug and wished him well on his search. No drama.

     

    Another guy looked like his picture, but his picture was better looking than him somehow. He tried very hard to be funny during the date, and I could overlooked that as he could have been nervous. But what I couldn’t overlook was that he was walking bad luck. He was driving on the highway and a truck with a tractor on it overturned onto his car. He was in the hospital for weeks. He had some other freak accidents and injuries. During the date, I jokingly said, “You know we can’t go out right? I mean I have bad luck myself and if an oncoming car were to hit us, I’d die and you’d be injured but survive.” That was about 3/4 of the way through dinner. We still had a friendly conversation afterwards. When the check came I offered to pay, and said no. He walked me to my car. I gave him a nice kiss goodnight. He asked if I would reconsider and I shook my head sadly again. And we went our separate ways.

     

    I think men can sense your “vibe” about WHY you don’t want to date him. The first guy probably sensed the no chemistry. Quite possibly he was being polite to ME and was relieved? The 2nd guy probably understood about the luck thing. I didn’t have any negative thoughts in my head about these guys. If I had any thoughts, it was, “Wow, nice guy, but not for me.” So when I said no, they didn’t “feel” that they were to blame, but rather it just wasn’t meant to be.

     

    My suggestion is to train yourself to see the good in every guy so that when you feel “no chemistry” your “no” is going to be naturally sincere and kind and doesn’t “feel” blamey to him. And make sure you give him a hug and a kiss at the end of the date, regardless of whether you’re attracted to him or not. Think of is practicing kissing. Of course, this assumes he wants to kiss you. And that you don’t find him repulsive. I’ve only not kissed one man good night. He was 50#s heavier than ALL his pictures. There was not one recent one in the lot. I really felt deceived. But I was kind to him during the date and thanked him for dinner. We had good conversation. But I couldn’t muster up any flirting energy whatsoever. Usually, I offer to help pay. And this one was probably the most expensive of the dates I went on, and was 40 mins from my house (I drove there), but I didn’t even offer. I ddin’t fell any guiltier about that than he did about his pix. He was a nice guy, but I just felt that was so wrong.

     

    He was the only guy that I felt THAT deceived by. There was another guy who had only had pictures when he had dark hair. The guy I met on the date was completely gray. I’m partial to brunettes, not gray-haired folks. Although I’ve dated grey-haired folks. But I saw from the pix they were grey, so no problem. I ate during our date, which was at a sports bar. He wasn’t hungry (or so he said) — so I ordered drinks and an app, which he picked from…and I paid the full tab, even his drinks. That’s usually what I do when I know I don’t want a second date. Subconsciously, I feel that paying for the first date discharges my obligation for saying yes to any additional dates.

  4. 4
    josie

    A conversation face to face is best if you are “breaking up” with a man you have been seeing for months, but rejecting a guy on the spot, during the date, as you are finishing your cocktail just seems socially unacceptable.   It also puts you both in an embarrassing awkward situation which I would expect would lead to more hard feelings than Evan’s post date email method.

    I have generally applied the polite post date email or text method or because I think it has the best chance of preserving any amicable feelings.  Vanishing on a man is the way to ensure total awkwardness the next time you run into him ( why not maintain a friendly tone , so you can retain social friendliness which may be useful for business or maybe he can even introduce you to a promising friend of his if you bump into him at a bar?)

     

     

  5. 5
    Tom10

    @ Michelle (the op)
    “My question is this: How do we decline said alpha male offers for second dates, etc.?”
     
    I agree with Evan; this guy is no alpha. Alpha males don’t get turned down for second dates, ha ha.
     
    —————–
     
    I have to admit it has only ever happened to me once that I asked for a second date and was refused; the girl in question was just out of a long-term relationship and decided to try get back with her ex – at least that’s what she told me.
     
    I’m normally hyper-vigilant on the first date to see if she’s interested or not, so if there’s any hint that she’s unsure I usually move on pretty quick. Women “usually” give fairly strong hints when they’re not interested so I will pick up on them and stop contacting her, so that neither of us has to make an awkward rejection speech.
     
    But I acknowledge that many guys seem to be totally clueless when it comes to reading women’s behavior, body language and intentions. When I’m not interested in a second date with a woman I simply don’t ask her out again. So, to maintain balance, I don’t take offence when women ignore me if I contact them again after the first date: I’m a big boy so I can handle it.
     
    As women don’t really have the option of simply not asking a guy out again it must be difficult to shrug off guys who just don’t get the hint. In this situation I agree with Evan that a short message should work.
     
    The only thing I would disagree with a small bit would be writing “an email proactively, the day after the date, regardless of whether he’s asked you out or not,”
     
     
    I think this message should only be sent once the guys has asked her out again, or at least initiated the communication, as doing so pre-emptively can be seen as a bit presumptuous and is inviting a retort along the lines of: “get over yourself, I wasn’t going to ask you out again anyway.”

  6. 6
    SAL9000

    Her question, or the blog’s summary of it (title), seems muddled. She wanted to go on the second date, it’s just that during the second date, she realized (and so did he) that it wasn’t going to work…

     

    As to the general issue of rejection, I think the advice of getting through the date and then sending a short generic “don’t think we’re a match” email later is best. I used to end it then and there and give immediate feedback, esp. if it was obvious like constant texting throughout the date. Sometimes it went poorly  and the drama is not worth it for someone you don’t know.

     

    The fade or ignore is awful but sometimes I do it. If she gives noncommittal answers (“busy this week, let’s keep in touch for next week”) or takes days to return my message, I lose interest and typically won’t respond. Most of these are her simply not being that interested if at all though I’m sure at least a few of these echo around the Internet as some player who poofed.

  7. 7
    Not Jerry

    Unless there is clear interest, and maybe even then, I let an initial meet and greet just end.  If I get a text or a call later indicating interest, I might go further if I want.

    I usually get a text like that if there is interest pretty quickly.  The last couple times I was on the way home from the initial meeting when that text came “I had a nice time, I’d like to see you again.” If you want to see me, you did the right thing!

    If I don’t hear anything unless I am pretty interested myself I let it lie for a while.  But I am an alpha male.  I only want to see someone who wants to see me.

    1. 7.1
      Karmic Equation

      Afraid to break it to you. If you’re only willing to meet with women who are the aggressors, you’re not alpha but beta.

      1. 7.1.1
        Not Jerry

        Haha. I didn’t say they had to be the aggressors.

        But I am not pursuing anyone, I have too many options, like all Alpha males.

        1. Karmic Equation

          If they text you, they ARE the aggressors. You won’t pursue someone that could possibly reject you, hence you’re not alpha.

           

          Alphas pursue and are unafraid of rejection. They go after what THEY want, not after what wants them.

      2. 7.1.2
        Not Jerry

        Any woman I am interested in always contacts me.  She can’t help it.

      3. 7.1.3
        SAL9000

        If she thanks him for the date after he asked her out/chose a place near her/offered to pick her up/paid, it’s not aggression but manners + momentum + enthusiasm, THE trifecta of how to succeed at online dating.

  8. 8
    Allison

    No, honesty is not the best policy – during the date itself. After the date? Yes. I think that during a date isn’t the right time at all, you just have to suck it up and see the date through to completion. It’s not always what you might want to do, but it is the KIND thing to do, and kindness is very underrated these days.

    Evan is right. A simple text or email after the date saying that you didn’t feel a connection is fine. My old script (and I would recycle this line over and over):

    “It was really nice meeting you and I don’t feel a connection like I should. Best of luck!”

    That’s it. It puts all the emphasis on you (and what you feel) and saying absolutely nothing about him. This way, there isn’t much that he can take offence to. If the man persists, and he doesn’t accept that you aren’t interested (even though you sent the text or email and I’ve had this happen) just delete or block them. Then forget about him and move on.

  9. 9
    Not Jerry

    There may be some men who pursue women who are not interested and don’t fear rejection, but how darn thick is that?  I sure don’t have time for that.

    1. 9.1
      Karmic Equation

      Alphas don’t believe that if a woman doesn’t contact him after a date, that she’s not interested. He assumes that if he contacts a woman, she’s going to say “yes”. He may get rejected, but he doesn’t wait for “confirmation” he WON’T get rejected before he contacts a woman HE’s interested in. Waiting for women to contact you is a TOTALLY beta move, no matter how much you try to justify to yourself that it’s not.

       

      Alphas go after what they want. It never crosses their mind that anyone they’re interested in would reject them. I’m sure it happens occasionally but their expectation of success if part of what makes them alphas.

      1. 9.1.1
        Not Jerry

        I don’t think you really understand what it means to be an Alpha male.  It’s not that he can get anything he wants, he has the option to be selective.

        There’s no desperation. No picking second best. If I express interest, I get emails later. All the time. I can pick and choose.

        I was out tonight, and there were many interested women.  I left with the one I wanted to leave with.  I could have picked another if I’d wanted.

        1. McLovin

          Exactly. I often laugh at the inversion that women make on this, like KE just did.

           

          Pursuing is beta. Always has been, always will be. It belies a lack of options. It’s prostrating one’s self before the female, hoping for her approval.

           

          Alphas don’t ask and pursue. They take.

           

          I am the same way as you, Not Jerry. I never follow up, figure if she doesn’t either, she wasn’t interested enough.

        2. Karmic Equation

          No, you men are betas trying to convince yourselves that you’re alphas. Alphas want to win. They expect to win.

          Selecting from available options is a FEMININE power/prerogative. And, for the most part, we do identify feminine with beta.

          So either you guys are feminine alphas (oxymoron) or you’re just plain betas trying to convince yourself and the masses otherwise.

          Expectation of success. Succeeding whenever they put in the effort. Those are alpha attitudes and what makes alphas alphas.

          Just for clarity’s sake, I am using the the word “pursuing” as meaning “initiating”. You call first, she says yes. You’re initiating. You call first, she doesn’t respond. You don’t call again. You stop initiating/pursuing. All good, you got the message. That is alpha and makes sense.

          Many “players” are alphas. They’re players because often they often ignore the first no and try again, depending on the “quality” of that first no. I know this because one of my ex’s was a player. He admitted “dating” over 200 women in his 20s. And I knew he kept a soft harem in his early 30s. He didn’t accept my first no. We were watching a teen flick once and the girl snubbed a boy’s advances. And my bf talks to the TV, “Don’t you take ‘no’ as the answer! Try again, you dummy.” It was cute, that TV coaching he did 🙂

          So if you believe you’re alpha, you initiate without fear of failure. You might even try again after the first ‘no’ because you can’t believe anyone will say no to you (a la George Clooney — his now wife said no the first time he asked her out) You don’t just go after sure things. And an initiating call from a woman is a sure thing. While your methods are EFFECTIVE if you wait for that first call before you initiate a date, you’re NOT alpha. Don’t confuse the two.

        3. Not Jerry

          Karmic, I completely disagree with your assessment.

          You have a weird, rigid idea about how to define an alpha. You just have no idea. You might have been dealing with brash guys who are dumber than a box of rocks, and pursue women who are unavailable.   You said that is what alpha males do, they go after what they want and can’t believe they aren’t successful.

          I don’t have nearly enough time to screw around with women who are not interested or available.

          But admittedly, I am older and looking for something permanent, not a hookup. So my standards are probably higher than a 20 or 30 something guy’s might be.

          I find lots of beautiful women who cannot carry on an interesting conversation.  Men too, it’s quite interesting.

          I just don’t want to be around anyone that cannot converse. So higher standards than maybe you are used to.

          I just don’t think you are the authority about definitions of Alpha Males.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          I completely agree with KE’s assessment that Alpha Males pursue as opposed to passively waiting for women to pursue. Doesn’t mean you accept someone flaky or stupid, but you certainly don’t sit and judge a woman based on how much she’s pursuing you, calling you, making plans with you. Alphas do that themselves.

        5. Not Jerry

          EMK, I didn’t suggest anything like passively waiting. I flirt if interested, and if the flirting is not reciprocated, I move on. Maybe she’s married, or just not interested.
          No reason to flog a dead horse.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Not Jerry, I’m a woman. I know better than you what an Alpha Male is, because I date males. Tell me when was the last time you dated a male?

           

          If you only like women who pursue you, then you are by definition attracted to Alpha Females. Nothing wrong with that. Except most alpha males are NOT attracted to alpha females.

           

          Flirting is not initiating. Initiating/pursuing is calling when you’re interested. If you’re not interested UNLESS she calls, they in the dating world you’re a beta male because you don’t want to risk rejection. You only go after sure things.

           

          Nothing wrong with that except you need to give up upon labeling yourself Alpha.

           

          As twinkle said, men are not the arbiters of which males are alpha. Attractive women are. And attractive women rarely have to pursue because men, both alpha and beta, are often pursuing them. So women who pursue men are either too alpha for true alphas or are desperate.

           

          We’re going to disagree on this Not Jerry because you don’t want to face reality. Wanting a woman to pursue you isn’t wrong. Doesn’t mean you’re not attractive. Just means you’re not alpha. Beta males are attractive, too. I was in a 6 year relationship with a beta male. I loved him a lot more than I did my alpha. I only loved him superficially. But he totally rocked my world with his alphaness.

           

          I would say my current bf is a mixture of both alpha and beta. He’s a reformed bad boy. Wild in his 20s. Smoked, drank, did drugs. But he’s been clean and sober for over 20 years now. He’s responsible and serious now. His last gf did a number on him though and really lowered his self-esteem. But I know how to draw out the alpha in men. He’s recovering his alphaness and I’m happily enjoying his transformation.

      2. 9.1.2
        twinkle

        I agree with K.E. on this one. My previous bf was among the most attractive men I’ve ever met, very much an alpha male, and he would follow up on dates and ask me out again, with confidence and classiness, but he has never ever come across as desperate.

         

        Which men are most attractive or most alpha is something determined by women, esp. attractive women. Not determined by men. 😉

         

        Btw I’m not saying men have any obligation to pursue, or that attractive men have to pursue, or that men have to pursue to be attractive, etc. Women are entitled to no special treatment from a man. I find it ridiculous when women get insulting towards men who don’t ask them out again or are “commitment-phobes” or stuff like that. But there’s nothing unattractive or desperate or un-alpha about a man following up on a date if he likes a woman. It lies in the execution. 🙂

         

        I’ve also realised many women don’t consider the most attractive guys to have 100% of alpha traits anyway, more like 80% alpha and 20% beta traits.

        1. Tom10

          I’m going to break gender protocol on this one and side with Karmic and twinkle on this one. Having read many of Not Jerry and McLovin’s comments I don’t think they’re necessarily alpha or beta – rather that they’re just…lazy.
           
          There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that though – if they’re happy then all is good.
           
          I personally think the dating dynamic does work better when the guy does more of the pursuing at least in the initial stages. There’s just always a little voice in my head saying: “the most attractive women never have to pursue a guy; so if this woman is feeling the need to pursue me, then she mustn’t be a top-tier woman :(”.
           
          Twinkle said #9.1.2
          “Which men are most attractive or most alpha is something determined by women, esp. attractive women. Not determined by men”
           
          Ouch. Although I happen to agree 🙂
           
           
           

        2. LC

          Adding my two cents for what its worth, I am completely taking sides with the ladies and Evan/Tom.  I dated a guy who may have thought he was an alpha (perhaps he was a player), but he totally put his interest out there and suggested we go on a date.  He took me out on a very nice date and I thanked him and gave  him proper kiss at the end of the night.  He asked me out again and I said yes that sounds great.  What happened in between the dates was what totally turned me off.  He would send random texts throughout the day and I always reciprocated.  One night he asked what I was doing and I told him I was at the gym.  He proceeded to text me again and when I didn’t answer him he sent me a text a few minutes later saying  “you’re not a good communicator”.  I laughed and told him I was busy at the gym.  He was turned off by the fact that I didn’t seem into him or interested because I wasn’t making any effort to return his text immediately…and that I never initiated a conversation (via text or phone).   I was merely “mirroring” his efforts.  He assumed that if I was really into him that I would call or text him between dates.

        3. Tom10

          @ LC
          “I dated a guy who may have thought he was an alpha (perhaps he was a player)”
           
          “One night he asked what I was doing and I told him I was at the gym.  He proceeded to text me again and when I didn’t answer him he sent me a text a few minutes later saying  “you’re not a good communicator”
           
          Nah he was no player: he was just a guy with poor game. Guys who know what they’re doing don’t reply to a “I’m at the gym” message a few minutes later by saying “you’re not a good communicator.”
           
          If he knew what he was doing he would have had you waiting by your phone analysing his messages.
           
           
          You did the right thing by mirroring his efforts 😉

        4. McLovin

          Sorry, nobody is convincing me how a man prostrating himself before a woman for her approval is a dominant, masculine or “Alpha” trait.

           

          And, no, I’m sorry, women are not the arbiters of Alpha.

           

          The reason we’re having this disconnect is that the inhabitants of this comment section operate from a 100% blue pill/feminine imperative type of frame.

           

          The way that the women (and Evan for that matter) are describing masculine behavior is a complete inversion.

           

          Courting, pursuing, these are all beta behaviors. High-investment, low-return…always beta. These beta behaviors made sense in a bygone era, where there was a familial and cultural framework that was there to enforce it.

           

          Now they make zero sense, and in fact are quite detrimental in today’s sociosexual environment.

        5. AllHeart81

          McLovin’ – sounds like you play games with women. (Not to mention your view here sounds heavily aligned with the PUA community – not exactly a community known for supporting emotional intelligence in their men.) That’s not alpha. A man with intention, a plan, directness to pursue what he wants is what women find attractive. Not men who just sit around and offer nothing in return.

    2. 9.2
      Noemi

      Here’s the difference between you and an alpha male:

      First scenario: You’re at a party in which you are approached by multiple women. Having multiple offers, you would choose the woman to which you were most attracted.  Waiting to be approached, you will end up with the least bad of women who approached you.

      Second scenario: You’re at a party in which you approach your top choice of a woman. This women has multiple options, and chooses who she likes the most. If you get rejected, you would simply move on to your second choice. The result is pretty good for you in this scenario–you get your first or second, or third choice partner for that matter, and you know you can’t do better because your top choices have already rejected you. Thus, you’re still selecting from your top choices.

      Essentially, whoever does the asking, and is willing to risk rejection, fares better. Meanwhile, the man (you) who sits back and waits for women to make their advances settles for the least bad option on the table, rather than his top choices. That, my friend, is the difference between you and an alpha male 😀

      1. 9.2.1
        Not Jerry

        Oh, I don’t often troll parties.  But if I do, I generally end up by the firepit with the one I wanted to be there with.

        It happens all the time.  All the time.

        But I admit, I am looking for a particular woman, so believe me, most would not interest me because of my standards.

        1. Noemi

          The party analogy was merely for demonstration. But, I wonder, if you can have any woman you’d want, how is it that you haven’t met the right one for you?

      2. 9.2.2
        Not Jerry

        An Alpha male is not some insensitive, dumber than a box of rocks dude who will just go after what he likes by superficial looks, it’s just not like that at all.

        If you just want sex, OK, but for someone like me who is looking for something permanent it doesn’t make sense to pursue women based on superficial criteria, like looks, which believe me will fade over time! I have to want to talk to her, she has to have something worthwhile to say.  I have met many that don’t, and some were very beautiful.

        The idea that an Alpha male wouldn’t care if his overtures are returned and would doggedly pursue someone who is not showing interest, well, that’s the kind of thing stupid people do.

        Like I said, I only want to see you if you want to see me, and I am not slavishly trying to get with anyone who is not interested.  Why would I want to work that hard? This is for life!

        Not that there are not men who don’t value their time, don’t have a view of what they want, and are just chasing skirts, there are.

        But not me. Not smart guys.

        1. Noemi

          “An Alpha male is not some insensitive, dumber than a box of rocks dude who will just go after what he likes by superficial looks, it’s just not like that at all.” No one claims alpha males are insensitive, dumber than a rock, or superficial. Alpha males pursue the object of their interest with confidence. Whether a woman interests them due to their looks, or based on an intellectual conversation is irrelevant.

      3. 9.2.3
        McLovin

        Flirting and approaching are not the same as pursuing and courting. That’s another mistake that is being made here. The former is low-investment, the latter is high-investment.

         

        High-investment without reciprocal investment from the female (which is exactly what pursuing and courting are), is always beta, puts her on a pedestal (male investing heavily, female investing nothing).

         

         

        1. Karmic Equation

          If you equate “courting” with spending lots of money on a female without knowing if she’ll ever put out, then yeah, I can see your POV that is beta.

           

          However, if by courting we mean, “call her” to ask her for a second date, “calling her” is free. If the guy has imagination, they can go on a low-cost or no-cost date. Women want men to spend time getting to know her and showing that he wants to get to know her. Usually the easiest way to do that is to have a meal with her. Or talking on the phone with her between dates. And most restaurants don’t serve free meals.

           

          “Courting” by your definition is spending money. Courting by most women’s definition is that period of time where a man does his best to spend time with a woman to get to know her. It just so happens that meals/drinks are the easiest ways in this day and age to have face-to-face time.

           

          If you can think of other convenient ways for men to get to know women without eating with her, we’re all ears.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          You’re reading way too much MGTOW stuff, McLovin. If you don’t want to get on board with the concept of courting a woman by calling, planning, and paying for the first few weeks of getting to known each other, that just means you’ll largely be ineffective in dating. The women you’ll end up with are the insecure ones who feel the need to reach out to you, the masculine ones who like to take the lead, or the feminist ones who believe in 100% equality in all things. Instead of complaining that men are expected to pay for things, how about you suck it up and do what works best? You’d say the exact same thing to a woman, who, for example, didn’t do anything to make herself look nice (because it’s “not fair” that women are expected to look nice).

  10. 10
    Stacy

    I agree with Allison.

    Honesty is the best policy but not always practical while on a date (to tell someone you are not interested).

    And honesty is certainly not the best policy if someone asks you why you are no longer interested (I have had that happen and it could be awkward. Who wants to tell someone you just don’t find them attractive for instance?). So, in some cases, I come up with very polite, standard ways of doing things. But, I would never just do the fade away with someone I am either in a relationship with or have dated for a reasonable amount of time.

     

  11. 11
    Lisa

    I disagree with this but I sort of have a very straight forward style and I appreciate much the same.   The underlying issue here is something I experienced a lot with guys on online dating, they get angry when it comes to rejection, really angry.  Some even behave inappropriately, like swearing, etc.     I had one guy ask me to mail him my half of the dinner bill after I declined a second date.   I had originally offered to pay  the whole bill or at least my  half because I was not at all feeling the guy on the date and thought that was fair.   I did not send him my half after the fact.  Online dating is all about rejection, I get it all the time too, but my thoughts are on to the next one, I don’t take it personally.    In generally men do not handle rejection was well as women and I am not at all surprised by the guys reaction here.      I think too a lot of men think they spend money (unlike women) and get tired of buying all these free meals only to be rejected.  If the guy asks you on a second or third date directly unless I feel in fear for my life I just tell him no, I am honest.  Why?  Because I have been on that date where I thought it went awesome, only to get that I’m just not into you email a few days later, to me that sucks more.      And if the guy is not good at dating multiple people at once then he needs to not online date.  This is all about the numbers which is why I hate it!

    1. 11.1
      Karl S

      This is why you need to push for coffee on the first and second dates. I never do meals because it’s too much pressure. I like to give the other person an escape route so that if they do stay, it’s a clear signal to move forward for me.

      1. 11.1.1
        judy

        I like that Karl S.  It’s honest, open and frank.

      2. 11.1.2
        Marika

        Karl S

        Speaking personally, the ‘escape route’ mentality smacks of fear and it can be sensed by the other person.

        A coffee date feels really impersonal & it’s hard to establish a connection, both over coffee (like it’s a business transaction or you’re hanging out with your aunty), and when the date is planned to ‘make sure there’s an escape route’, rather than a positive assumption that things will work out.

        I think if you put in a bit of effort and don’t court based on fear, there’s a better chance of things working out.

  12. 12
    Blaat

    Where do woman get the idea from that alpha males are attracted to a woman who describes herself using only masculine traits like succesful, independent and strong? Those traits are at best not very important on the attraction scale and at worst a turnoff. You will be more succesful in attracting an alpha male if you are a feminine woman that is able to display classic feminine traits like kindness, caring, compassion and emphathy. It’s a thinking error that the things you find attractive in the opposite gender will also make you attractive to them.

    1. 12.1
      Not Jerry

      A lot of women on here don’t seem to understand how it is for Alpha males.
      Are Alpha males always looking for the most gorgeous woman?  For casual sex, maybe.  But not me, I have standards.  I am also more interested in something long term.

      Let me just say that a portion, not sure what percentage but a portion of very attractive people are ugly inside, or are just superficial and vain.

      I am not looking for anything like that, so that I would be interested and be able to get the most beautiful woman there and that I would want her for anything except maybe casual sex, well, that is just unfounded.

      Admittedly, I am older.  I have been around, and I am therefore quite discerning.  Older people, like me and the women I would be interested in, most of us have a view of what we want, of past mistakes that we don’t want to repeat. At least the smart ones do.  Hopefully!

      When you are a 20-something, you are looking at the pictures, thinking of children and a family, and a lot of what goes into your interpersonal relationships is based on that and for good biological reasons.

      For those my age, well, that ship has sailed.  So my view of the person I want to spend time with, the rest of my life preferably, there are parameters that come into play for anyone who isn’t stupid.  That I would be interested in a beautiful, vain, superficial woman with little intelligent to say is ridiculous.

      I am an Alpha male, there are many women that I meet that I would not be interested in because I have standards, at least today I do.  They might be beautiful, sexy, but if they don’t have anything intelligent to say, I can’t spend the time.

      We are all bloggers, so the bar is quite a bit higher here.  This is a top weighted environment like all blogs are, because it takes some brains to want to do this. We’re the cream of the crop!  So don’t forget that, and in normal walks of day to day life you come across all sorts of people, and a lot of them are not really relationship material IMHO.  I just demurr them. Polite and noncommittal.

      1. 12.1.1
        Noemi

        “They might be beautiful, sexy, but if they don’t have anything intelligent to say, I can’t spend the time.” 

        Good for you! Many men wouldn’t care for an intelligent woman, as long as she’s nice and looks pretty. As my 40-year old cousin says about his girlfriends, “I can be the smart one. She’ll be the pretty one.”

      2. 12.1.2
        AllHeart81

        You should certainly have standards that go beyond beauty! But sometimes it seems you use these ‘standards’ to keep yourself from being open and vulnerable with women. And you appear to use it as a badge of honor as if your ‘standards’ make you a better human being. It’s strange how often you mentioned your ‘standards’. Please have them! But there does come a tipping point when we use our ‘standards’ to keep us isolated from our own desires.

  13. 13
    Karl S

    I date a lot and around the second date I tend to ask questions about the other persons dating history and their general expectations about what they want in terms love. My reason for doing so is that I’m an open dater who sees multiple people and I don’t want to lead on anyone who may get hurt by that.

    You can ask this stuff in a lighthearted and curious way that can be fun to chat about so it’s not an interrogation,  but the reality is that it helps define what you’re both looking for and trying to get early on.

    The key is also to take whatever information you glean without judging it and offering information about yourself in the same way. Based on the OP’s letter, she did her best to offer her own expectations and needs  – “I then tried my best to express my true feelings without being a jerk” – but the guy couldn’t accept this information, which he pushed for, without feeling insulted.  To me, it sounds like it’s his problem, not hers. She dodged a bullet.

  14. 14
    Clare

    I tried this recently: “Hi Chris,
    Thanks for the message. I think maybe we might not be a match. Sorry, you’re a nice guy but I think maybe I’m looking for something else.
    I wish you all the best of luck!”

     

    This kind of thing is actually very easy to say and saves everyone’s feelings. You don’t have to be too specific, because often these things can’t be defined, it’s just a feeling. Chances are the person you’re rejecting will make a great partner for someone else, it’s just not going to be you, so there’s no reason to be in any way hurtful or insulting about it.

     

    Ignoring someone and hoping they get the hint is inflicting unnecessary torture.

    1. 14.1
      Jordan

      I would not tell dates whom you are rejecting “Sorry you’re a nice guy but I think maybe I’m looking for something else.”

       

      The unintended consequence of this is that the guy will zero in on the nice guy part and then purposely change himself into a jerk in order to be attractive to women.

      1. 14.1.1
        Clare

        Unfortunately, Jordan, that’s not something I or any other woman can control, or be responsible for.

         

        If he chooses to misinterpret the truth of my comment, which is that he IS nice, but that *I* am looking for something/someone else, that is rather sad, but unfortunately he will see that he will not have much long-term success being a jerk either. It is how we all learn. His best bet is to get coaching from someone like Evan on what women are actually looking for in a man. Unfortunately it is not for all women who reject him to be responsible for his insecurities.

  15. 15
    ScottH

    I was kind of surprised that there was no mention of the reason she decided they “weren’t at the same level.”  Talking on the 2nd date about dating experiences and stories has been very common for me- usually the woman brings it up.  And feeling like he’s putting you on a pedestal because you’re the 3rd woman he’s asked for a second date?  How is that being put on a pedestal?  On a first date I recently had, she told me that she hasn’t had any 2nd dates because the guys she met were flaky and now we’ve been going for 3 great months.  And telling you that he’s been raised not to date more than one woman at a time?  He’s giving you good information.

    OP, you seem a bit flaky to me.

  16. 16
    MilkyMae

    You should never dump a new suitor when they are not asking for date.  Its super rude(and insecure) dump some one in the middle of a date.  She should just stayed friendly and dumped him if and when he asked for a third date.

    One thing I wish realized earlier is that confident, emotionally healthy men want to find a woman who likes them.  When they don’t get some positive  interaction, they move on pretty quickly without second guessing.  On the other hand, clingy, unhealthy men just want to find a woman.  They seem to latch on to the tiniest bit of attention or civility.  A man who is ok with a woman’s lack of interest, is probably not a great catch IMO.  However, its easy to dismiss a decent man and end up with a persistent, needy man.

  17. 17
    McLovin

    I understand why you, KE and I are butting heads on this, EMK. It makes perfect sense. We are advocating from different perspectives. You and KE are advocating for female sexual strategy….i.e. obtaining high-investment from potential suitors, with as little investment as possible.

     

    I am advocating for my own sexual strategy, from a male perspective. I want to obtain high-investment from a woman (sex) while investing as little as possible.

     

    “Instead of complaining that men are expected to pay for things, how about you suck it up and do what works best?”

     

    Again, to me this just rings in my ears as “put that woman on a pedestal and dance for her amusement. Perhaps then she’ll deign to accept you.” Sorry, for a dude in this day and age that’s a one-way ticket to heartbreak and overinvestment, and an overall piss-poor strategy.

     

    This is what I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m not offended, it’s your duty to your readership to advocate this type of arrangement. But I could just as easily say, instead of complaining that women are expected to cook, clean and raise children, why not suck it up and do what works best? Or….instead of complaining that men want sex, why not suck it up and do what works best and give it to them?

     

    It’s not my job to entertain women, plan activities for them, pay for them or pursue and court them. They can read Jane Austen if they like that sort of dynamic. They either enthusiastically and actively get on board my train, or it passes them by. I like to treat women as equals, perhaps I’m a feminist (lol).

    1. 17.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Once again, McLovin, all you are doing is outing yourself as a man that most high value women won’t want to be with. Courting a woman is actually a GOOD strategy if you want to demonstrate to that high value woman that you are a good long-term investment who takes her seriously. But the guy who sits at home and texts, refused to plan and pay, and expects sex for no effort? Yeah, you can get that if you want…but the only person who gives you that is someone with low self-esteem who feels the need to chase and court guys. As such, your strategy is not a particularly good one – unless your goal is to get a weak woman who doesn’t realize that she deserves more than a lazy guy who is trying to minimize his effort and maximize his rewards.

      ALL relationships are about mutual giving – and by demonstrating, up front, that you’re willing to GIVE, you’re more likely to get a woman who “cooks, cleans and raises children”. But leading with selfishness? Waiting for her to court you? Hard to see how that’s going to charm any winners, my friend.

      1. 17.1.1
        McLovin

        My strategy works fine for me. I like to turn women on. Courting, pursuing and investing does not turn women on.

         

        An entitled, “I don’t give a #$%&” attitude and expecting sex with no effort….that does turn women on, if you can pull it off correctly.

         

        Now I am getting a touch offended, though, by your use of the term “lazy,” when what you advocate for your readers here is the exact same thing….minimize effort and maximize rewards. Why is it only women who should be able to do that, Evan?

         

        I’ve made a very successful strategy by flipping the script.

    2. 17.2
      Karmic Equation

      I hear what you’re saying, McLovin. You’re right, there are plenty of entitled women who want you to dance to her tune.

       

      However, courtship is not actually where she wants carte blanche to make you dance. Usually, women feel entitled AFTER the relationship is established, hence all the women who want to stop their bfs from talking to exes, using porn, going to strip clubs, etc.

       

      Courtship is the time where you hook the woman. You court her properly, and she’s truly interested in you (e.g., not a gold digger), you get a huge ROI. You know, the kind where you can say “I told you I want nothing serious” and she still lets you have sex with her because she hopes to change your mind. The kind where you break up with her and she welcomes you back with open arms because she remembers how romantic you were when you were courting her.

       

      Courtship is the time when a woman is most inclined to fall in love with the man. And as we all know from this blog, once she’s in love, she has a lot of trouble letting go, and the man holds all the cards.

       

      Which is why I do think it’s in a woman’s best interest to dismiss a man’s courting behavior, because most times that behavior does not survive past the beyond the first month of sex.

       

      You changed the argument from alpha and initiating to pursuing an courting.

       

      Let’s change it back. You are not alpha. Alphas initiate and pursue within reason. If she tells you to buzz off in a bitchy way and you keep trying, yes, you are beta or idiotic. But a woman who says “I’m sorry, I have a boyfriend” — that’s a soft rejection, meaning she might be interested if she didn’t have a boyfriend. If you’re proficient in PUA tactics, you know that’s probably a wall you can scale. And alphas will make a value judgment on whether or not to try to scale that wall.

       

      Alphas don’t wait for her to call him up and tell him where the ladder is.

      1. 17.2.1
        McLovin

        I could really care less who judges me “Alpha” or not. It’s something I give very little thought to.

         

        The notches on my bedpost tell the tale. I am in the 95th percentile for partner count.

         

        I’ll give you a perfect example of how I work this.

         

        Yesterday I was at a BBQ at a friend’s house for the last day of the town festival. Mostly couples with kids. One of the wives brought a friend along. Nice looking woman, single 5-10 years younger than me (I’m 36). I caught her looking a few times out of the corner of my eye. She wasn’t giving me heavy IOI’s or anything like that, but I could tell she was looking. I approached her, flirted, witty banter, ribbed on her a little bit, got her laughing, did some people watching etc…I could tell she was waiting for me to ask for her number or ask her out.

         

        Instead, I said something like “hey, nice talking to you” and dropped her like a hot rock. Went back to throwing beers back with my buddies and ignored her totally. When I was ready to leave, I said my goodbyes to everyone I knew there, thanked the hosts for having me. I did not say goodbye to the woman, instead  I shot her a real stern look for 2 seconds, turned and bailed.

         

        On my way home I got a text from a number not saved in my phone. Yep, you guessed it. She had gotten my number from the host of the party.

         

        Game on. This is how it’s done.

         

        If she hadn’t texted, oh well. I invested nothing.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Look up feminine energy. It’s passive and receptive. You may be getting laid but you are doing it in a passive way, where you don’t pursue because of “investment” but it’s really fear. If you were more confident, you’d pursue women you wanted snd assume you’d get them instead of waiting til last call and seeing which masculine woman flirts with you.

        2. Karmic Equation

          All you got was laid by a desperate woman. You can think you’re “all that” and maybe you are a charming scamp 🙂 Good for you.

           

          But that doesn’t mean you’re alpha. As long as you don’t label yourself that, I won’t argue with you.

           

          You’re the cautionary tale of why women should NOT pursue men. All she will become is a notch on his bedpost. Sure, some women get married to the man she pursued. So she’ll be carrying the load for both the logistical and emotional workload for the relationship (assuming it ever gets that far) for the duration of the time they’re together.

           

          If women are ok with this, then good for the both of you. But most women aren’t. They want the guy to lead. If you want a guy to lead, pick a leader. Not one you have to pursue. Problem solved.

        3. Noemi

          Most women wouldn’t have done that. Getting your number and texting you before you had indicated you wanted to see her again is either 1) aggressive or 2) desperate. If this is your strategy, you’re limiting your dating pool to these types of women. If it doesn’t bother you, fine. Just know that by using this strategy you mentioned, you’re severely limiting yourself.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Yep, you sound like every girl’s dream guy, a drunk cad.

          I don’t care how nice looking or “demure”  she is, she chased after a cad who gave her the stink eye.  She has some serious self esteem issues.

          Have fun banging your lady friend with the self esteem issues.

          She apparently doesn’t pick her friends very well either.  If I saw a party guest of mine treat one of my friends like trash, I certainly wouldn’t give her his phone #, and I would tell her not to chase after men who get drunk and give her the stink eye.

        5. SparklingEmerald

          Also, a text book example of how men “date down” for sex.

          Thanks for the cautionary tale to women AND the perfect illustration of men dating down for sex !

          Have fun banging the woman who you feel is beneath you (figuratively and literally)

  18. 18
    McLovin

    This was not a masculine woman, very demure actually. But it doesn’t really matter, it works. I pushed her buttons. I flipped her script.

     

    Do you think she would have done the same thing with some thirsty guy who approached her like a fedora-wearing gentlesir, offering to take her to an expensive dinner and show up with flowers at her door? Hell no she wouldn’t. She’s a very attractive woman, she gets that 10 times a month.

     

    Call it weak, call it lazy, call it feminine, call it fear…call it whatever you want, it works. I understand your need to denigrate it, though, it goes directly against what you’re trying to tell the women who pay you.

     

    I learned the hard way, trust me. I refuse to pay for something that she has given away to other guys for free. That’s what betas are for.

     

    I mean, don’t you find any cognitive dissonance in the fact that, you’ve got high-earning women on this site, who have taken full advantage of the opportunities that gender equality has brought them, and yet they want to be properly courted as if they’re Victorian debutantes? So they want the benefits of feminism as well as the benefits of patriarchy?

     

    I’m sorry, I don’t play that game.

    1. 18.1
      Karmic Equation

      I have no doubt that PUA tactics work on a lot of women. Because I do agree with you that women say they want one thing (that “nice guy”) but she goes and bangs the “bad boy” without commitment.

      Until women give up the fantasy that she, and her wondrous love and vjj, can transform a bad boy into a nice guy, she’s going to keep getting her heart broken.

      Men like you win because women are unwilling to disassociate love from sex.

      1. 18.1.1
        McLovin

        I like your posts, KE. You’re very much a realist.

      2. 18.1.2
        judy

        Well Karmic Equation – I’d say that “men like you LOSE” because although, he may have many conquests, basically, he’s not a winner at all, just one of the nerd category.

        1. Noemi

          A nerd? Or a man who wants to play the field? I think there’s a misuse of the word “nerd” here.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Judy, calling men names don’t empower us or disempower him. Men want sex. They get sex. They win. As much as we women would LOVE to believe that men “lose” or are losers because they banged a woman who “had to” chase him, he doesn’t care. He got the bang, without having to commit.

          So, as a woman, the ONLY way to win this game is to be a woman he can’t walk away from. Which means she has to be happy, nice, kind, cool, confident, accepting, and secure. Good men and bad have a difficult time walking away from that woman.

          And if you’re confident and secure, you don’t care if he walks away after sex. He’s replaceable, not the last man on earth.

    2. 18.2
      Noemi

      I wonder where this woman is at now…she probably feels foolish for reaching out to a guy who gave her nothing more than 30 minutes of pleasure. Fast forward a few years, and maybe she will learn that the guy who buys her dinner before taking her to the boom boom room is a keeper.

      1. 18.2.1
        McLovin

        I’ll ask her when I see her again in a couple of days.

        1. Noemi

          😀

  19. 19
    judy

    McLovin – yes, you are good at playing games.  And maybe the next time, some good decent man will pay for it.

    And I hope it comes back to you – a thousand times.

    And may I wish you many thousand lack of erections.

    1. 19.1
      McLovin

      Totally unfair. I’ve said nothing about what my intentions are. I’ve only talked about how I get them interested and how I screen them. I never lie to them. I don’t have to.

       

      Comes back to me? How do you think I wound up this way?

       

      I’ll tell you how: by being a genuinely nice guy, courting, pursuing and etc, like Evan says I should, and getting stomped on for it. No more. I’m out for me now, just like everyone else is.

      1. 19.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Aw, McLovin. All that meant was you chased after the wrong women. Now you’ve swung to the opposite side of the pendulum by letting the wrong women chase you.

        If you let some woman in your past change you from a nice guy to a player, then she won.

        Nice guys win when they find the right women. Players and PUAs are perpetually doomed to finding the wrong women. Sure they’ll get bedded more than “nice guys”. But the love or relationships they find themselves in aren’t the soul-fulfilling kind. Women who fall for PUA tactics aren’t secure.

        There was this awesome FB meme. Showed a headless shot of a hot woman’s body in a string bikini in a provocative posture. The meme was “No matter how hot she is, some guy somewhere is sick of her sh*t.”

        You won’t get sick of a secure woman’s sh*t, because she doesn’t give you any. Granted secure women are hard to find, but they’re out there…if you aren’t lazy or disillusioned.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Seriously. If your goal in life is to give as little as possible to a relationship, you’re only going to get the low-self-esteem women who put up with that. If that’s what you want, go on with your bad self. Sounds pretty miserable to me – to have all the power over a weak and needy woman who silently suffers because her boyfriend wants to maintain control instead of leading with warmth, trust, and generosity of spirit.

        2. Josie

          “Secure women are hard to find”  – wow, thank you for that one K.E.

          Which explains how the McLovins of  the dating pool are able to succeed in their “conquests.”  Early sex with little invested does not bode well for a healthy fulfilling relationship, often because the participating woman is NOT a secure, emotionally mature individual with healthy self esteem.

          Instead, men become accustomed to women who fall for lazy techniques.  Like one guy I dated briefly last year, who was the classic textbook “e-maintainer” (stringing a woman along using texts to maintain an appearance of interest, while holding out for better options).  After a couple of early dates that involved effort and planning, he opted to begin texting me casually over one weekend, just casual small talk texts, not following up to make plans when I had clearly been receptive to his advances and suggested spending time together.  It became pretty clear to me that his communications were down-grading me, rather than moving forward.  He seemed wishy washy in other ways, too, so I stopped responding.

          I am wondering whether his minimal effort strategy produces results with other women.

          I look back at the communications patterns during the best dating results I have had with men (comfortable, secure and committed dating that seemed to be leading somewhere).  A few themes emerged:  the guy was usually following up within a few days to make plans (often making plans for the next date while on the previous date),  taking the initiative, and making me feel like I was a true priority to him.

           

  20. 20
    Tom10

    @ Karmic Equation #19.1.1
    “Players and PUAs are perpetually doomed to finding the wrong women. Sure they’ll get bedded more than “nice guys”. But the love or relationships they find themselves in aren’t the soul-fulfilling kind. Women who fall for PUA tactics aren’t secure.”
     
    Er…Karmic you know I love ya, but didn’t you have a relationship with a player, or two?…
     
    Just kidding 😉
     
    ——————-
     
    Not sure if I should wade into this one but having read all the comments between McLovin, Karmic Equation and Evan and having thought about it for the last while I think the key between both positions is balance. I think both positions are valid but – as with all negotiations – the solution lies somewhere in the middle.
     
    I think Mclovin is entitled to pursue any strategy he wants and if he’s happy with the quality of the women who are contacting and pursuing him then that is okay. However, the risk of this strategy is that whilst the women who are pursuing him will see him as their dream guy (as evidenced by their pursuit without reciprocal investment) he mightn’t see them as his dream girl, and therefore will be unsatisfied in the long-term.
     
    The flip-side is the guy who pursues a woman, invests in “courting” (for the sake of argument I consider that as synonymous with taking her for dinner/some other tangible evidence of financial investment) without receiving any reciprocal *tangible* indications of her interest (for the sake of argument I consider that as synonymous with sex). The risk of this strategy is that whilst the guy pursuing will see the woman as his dream woman (as evidenced by his pursuit without reciprocal investment) there is a high probability that the woman doesn’t see him as her dream guy – as evidenced by her taking the dinner yet not investing anything herself.
     
    And as much as McLovin is entitled to pursue any strategy he wants, women are also entitled to pursue any strategy they want. Therefore women are fully entitled to only date guys who indicate tangible indications of investment before reciprocating her investment (sex). However, the risk of this strategy is the only guys who are prepared to play ball won’t be her dream guy (i.e. only chumps would tolerate that) and therefore, she will be unsatisfied in the long-run.
     
    So what’s the solution? Well I guess it’s for both parties to meet in the middle and to see each other as their dream catch, which will require carefully navigating a simultaneous investment/analysis of reciprocal investment strategy. That way neither party gets the raw end of the stick; which is what skillful dating is about.
     
    I will probably want to date my dream girl at some point so when I’m ready and/or happen to meet a potential candidate I will be prepared to make the initial investment (pursuit) and risk getting burned in the process. However, I will still be vigilant to see reciprocal investment from her part and will walk quickly if I don’t see any.
     
     
    However, until I’m ready to date my dream girl and/or happen to meet a potential candidate I will pursue a low investment strategy and try and get sex without much investment. 

    1. 20.1
      Karmic Equation

      Touché, Tom10 🙂

      I knew full well what I was getting into. I wanted the experience of being the “bad girl”. Who better to teach me than a bad boy? LOL

      But my point was that, to keep me interested he ended up my bf. He even brought up marriage (once when we were together, once after we broke up, which I deflected. I would have been an idiot to marry him. I never believed he could stay faithful for the long haul. Plus he was 13 years my junior.) But he was fun. Sex was hot. He was also lots of drama. My life with him was in technicolor. By he was not good for me in the long run and I knew it from the get go. I used him to get over my “beta” guy before him. If it weren’t for my player, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have tried to “save” my alcoholic beta.

      But I do believe everything happens for a reason. Would I date another player? Highly unlikely. Once was enough. I remember him fondly and wish him well.

    2. 20.2
      McLovin

      Excellent post, Tom. Encapsulates the whole thing perfectly. Men have to date down for sex, women have to date down for commitment.

       

      Where this gets snagged up is, most modern women think they should be able to date “up” for sex AND commitment.

       

      The “dream” scenario you paint where each person is the other’s dream partner and they reciprocate investment equally is, in my opinion, so rare and nebulous that it’s not even worth looking for. YMMV.

       

      As far as KE’s “soul-fulfilling” love, all I can do is laugh. I can’t believe adult human beings talk that way. I gave up on fairy tales in elementary school. All human interactions are transactional, I’m using a strategy that makes sure I get what I want out of the transaction.

      1. 20.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        I couldn’t find a better term, McLovin.

        But soul-fulling love does exist. I experienced it once. Unfortunately for me, it was one-sided. He came around to my way of thinking many years later, but the timing was never right, either I was in a relationship or he was. Them’s the breaks.

        It hurts like hell when that kind of love doesn’t get to play out and the story ends abruptly or never begins at all. I don’t expect to ever feel that way again, but knowing that it exists is comforting in addition to being maddening or saddening on occasion.

        You can deride it all you want. All that means is that either you’ll never find it or if you find it you won’t appreciate it until it’s lost. But if you don’t care, who am I to tell you otherwise?

         

    3. 20.3
      Karmic Equation

      Oh. I do have to add that while I did love my player, it was not deeply. It was quite superficial. I didn’t/couldn’t love him with all my heart and I couldn’t fall in love with him. I’m blessed with that kind of self-control. Thankfully.

      I would have been a wreck if I ever let myself go there. But because I had the ability to not fall in love with a blatantly unsuitable person, it worked for both of us until I decided he had outlived his usefulness to me.

      To give him credit, he treated me better than any other woman he been with to that time (his best friend told me so). However, that didn’t negate his volatile temper, drinking too much, lying to easily, etc., which weren’t the qualities that would make me happy in the long run. Great for short-term distractions though. lol

    4. 20.4
      twinkle

      Nicely-put, Tom10. It’s similar to what I wanted to reply to McLovin (u write it better and more clearly than I would have, though, haha) but I didn’t bother to because I felt he’d totally made up his mind and would never budge anyway. :p He’s a bit more open to discussion than I’d expected though, so fair play to him.

       

      Btw I’ve heard a lot of pple say women date down for commitment. There may be some truth to that. But when I looked at my recent dating history over a yr, there were a few guys I dated who wanted to be exclusive, and 2 who disappeared within 4 dates when they tried to move things in a more casual sexual direction and I wasn’t willing to do that

       

      And when I compare these 2 categories of guys, I don’t at all think the ‘serious’ guys were less attractive or worse catches than the ‘casual’ guys. (I’m using these words for brevity). Granted, this is sooo subjective (and maybe my vanity is playing tricks on me, but I’m quite a self-aware person), and my sample size is tiny, but I actually found the opposite to be true. I certainly didn’t think I was ‘dating down’ with the ‘serious’ guys.

       

      I don’t think men only want to be exclusive if they’re less attractive than the woman, they just have to be at a life stage where they’re open to having a life partner or have to meet someone they’re really compatible with. We ladies just have to meet more of these men if we want rships. :p

       

      There’s probably more truth to the statement that men date down for casual sex. Not always, but often.

    5. 20.5
      Tom10

      @ McLovin #20.2
      “Where this gets snagged up is, most modern women think they should be able to date “up” for sex AND commitment.”
       
      I would argue that this phenomenon isn’t actually unique to “most modern women” and is, in fact, probably the root theme of much romantic literature/artistic works (and now dating blogs) going back time immemorial: how to resolve the dichotomy that our conflicting short-term mating and long-term mating instincts lead to.
       
      For women this is how to resolve the difference in quality of the men they can attract for short-term and long-term mating. And for men this how to resolve our desire for variety without any consequences (as manifesting the desire for variety before the invention of contraception can lead to all sorts of complications).
       
      The classic example of female dichotomy is Pride and Prejudice written 200 years ago. The plot concerns a gentleman’s wife trying to find suitable husbands for her five daughters, particularly one, Elizabeth, who she tries to set up with Mr. Darcy, who just happens to be one of the richest young men in the country, tall, handsome and intelligent. Needless to say they got married and lived happily-ever-after.
       
      In real (modern day) life, Mr Darcy would probably have dated her for a while, then faded her out/dumped her and eventually married a woman closer to his position in society. I reckon most “kissing a lot of frogs to find your prince” and “waiting for Prince Charming stories” are based on resolving the same conflict.
       
      And from a male perspective think of Don Juan, written nearly 500 years ago, the central protagonist spends his life breaking countless hearts before finally meeting his comeuppance.
       
      I’m sure there are countless narratives throughout history revolving around the same themes.
       
      What is different today, however, is the societal/religious conditions, stigmas and norms designed to restrict our instinctive desires have now dissolved: therefore, there is nothing preventing us pursuing our base desires anymore. So women are free to try and “date “up” for sex AND commitment”. And men are free to try and do whatever they desire too…
       
      Which all leads to where we are now: arguing on a dating blog 🙂
       
      @ twinkle #20.4
      “this is sooo subjective (and maybe my vanity is playing tricks on me, but I’m quite a self-aware person)”
       
      I agree that there is a huge element of subjectivity to what is up, and what is down. Actually, by definition, it will be mostly subjective. I also agree that you’re quite a self-aware person 😉
       
      “I don’t think men only want to be exclusive if they’re less attractive than the woman, they just have to be at a life stage where they’re open to having a life partner or have to meet someone they’re really compatible with”
       
      I certainly think there’s some truth to “the timing” argument. If a guy wants children then he probably won’t be at a life stage where he’s open to having a life partner until he’s financially ready to provide for them. Other guys want to sow their oats before relaxing and putting their feet up. Other times it just takes some guys a really long time to work out what it is exactly that they’re looking for. I would fit into all three categories.
       
      “There’s probably more truth to the statement that men date down for casual sex. Not always, but often”
       
      I don’t see how one side of the equation can be “more” true without the other side being equally true. If it is true that men will often date down for casual sex (and it *is* true), then by definition it follows that many women are busy dating up for casual sex. And if a woman subsequently marries a guy back at her actual level, is she not then marrying “down” from her casual sex level?
       
      Or maybe it’s just a case of semantics about what’s up, what’s down and what’s equal! 🙂

      1. 20.5.1
        McLovin

        “What is different today, however, is the societal/religious conditions, stigmas and norms designed to restrict our instinctive desires have now dissolved: therefore, there is nothing preventing us pursuing our base desires anymore. So women are free to try and “date “up” for sex AND commitment”. And men are free to try and do whatever they desire too…

        Which all leads to where we are now: arguing on a dating blog”

         

        Bingo! Funny you mention Jane Austen, because I think one could make an argument that Pride & Prejudice may have been the very first narrative that tried to convince the average woman that she could snag that unattainable alpha and lock him down for commitment….absolute BS, of course.

         

        So today, instead of a woman’s grandmother/mother telling her to pull her head out of the clouds and get more realistic, we have Cosmo saying “you go girl!” or “you CAN have it all!!!!”

         

        I’m happy to watch it all crash and burn while happily feeding off the bones.

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