Why Women Shouldn’t Pursue Sex (According to Science, Not Me!)

woman initiating the first move with a man

Sex is a fun topic to write about and I’ve written a LOT about it.

But this piece by Ann Friedman in New York magazine  is so spot on that I wish I had written it myself. It’s about whether women should be passive when it comes to pursuing sex, even when their biology insists that their desire is as strong as male desire.

Friedman, reporting on Daniel Bergner’s new book, “What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire,” starts by asserting  that we’ve been brainwashed:

“Men and women have been barraged with the message that women are not naughty by nature. They are thought of as hardwired to hunt for a partner and a mate, while men pursue sex as a pleasurable act in and of itself. It follows from there that women – at least good women – must be pursued and coaxed into sex, and men enjoy the thrill of the chase.”

There’s plenty of evidence for that, as women prefer to be asked out, have men make the first move, and are particularly turned on by their partners’ desire for them. But then again, if women like sex just as much as men, why can’t they pursue it in the same way?

And this is where society – for better or worse – kicks in. I’m a reality-based dating coach. I don’t make the rules. I observe them. And I’ve observed the same Catch-22 that Friedman and Bergner have reported on below:

“Women want sex, and in particular, they want sex with people who really want them. But socially, many straight men still find it a turnoff when women are sexual aggressors. Which means that, for women, aggressively pursuing the thing they want actually leads to them not getting it….

If women like sex just as much as men, why can’t they pursue it in the same way?

For example, women and men overwhelmingly state that men are supposed to plan dates, ask out the woman, and pick her up. Moreover, when women do not adhere to these scripts they are viewed negatively. For example, women who initiate dates are viewed by men as more promiscuous and not interested in forming a serious relationship.” …We’ve already established that females of all species are interested in sex for pleasure. But in the human realm, that simple, fundamental motivation is all too easily labeled as “sluttiness,” or some sort of deep desperation wrought by singledom.”

Yep, that’s about right. Again, I’m not endorsing this – just observing it. As a self-proclaimed slut who started most of his relationships by hopping into bed and dealing with the fall-out, I hold no judgment for anyone who does the same.

But since my forte is helping smart, strong, successful women understand men and find love, we can’t ignore the reality of the situation, outlined by Friedman:

“This catch-22 presents women with a few options, none of which are appealing. You can directly pursue a man, but only if you want to convey that you’re only in it for sex. You can choose not to pursue him, but then you’re relegated to this historic, passive role that doesn’t jibe with your active, considered approach to any other area of life, be it work or real estate or even friendship….“According to these women, their professional background is already intimidating to many men and they feel as though asking them out would make them less attractive and even more intimidating,” she says. “The men I interview also state that they prefer to be the individual who initiates the date and at times find women who ask them out to be more aggressive.”

Yes, gender roles are changing, even if our biology is not. Which is why I give the advice I give, which sounds more “traditional” than you’d expect from a liberal.

Men: Plan, pay, court, follow up, and make a consistent effort. (Most) women really appreciate when  you take the  lead.

Women: Let men do this instead of doing it yourself. Not because you CAN’T, but because, on the whole, your man doesn’t  find it appealing when you call him, ask him out, pay for him,  initiate sex, and follow up with him. That’s usually his job.


“More and more men are finding it difficult to be as direct, when it comes to dating and sex, as previous generations of men maybe once were,” says Chiara Atik, author of Modern Dating: A Field Guide.  “Everyone’s being kind of wishy-washy. Women want sex, but they don’t want to be seen as forward (or worse, desperate). Men want sex but are intimidated, unconfident, or don’t want to be seen as domineering. We’re not sure who should be the sexual instigators, and then no one really steps up to the plate.”

If you’re going to throw out all the rules and suggest that there are no roles for men and women whatsoever, you have no right to suggest a new standard operating procedure. The procedure in a genderless world is “no procedure”.

That’s what we’re seeing right now. And it doesn’t seem like women like the results.

Which is why I strongly differ with the author’s conclusion:

“We all get that the rules of traditional courtship – in which men make every single advance and women demur or acquiesce – are dead, but we haven’t replaced them with a new standard operating procedure.”

In my opinion, if you’re going to throw out all the rules and suggest that there are no roles for men and women whatsoever, you have no right to suggest a new standard operating procedure. The procedure in a genderless world is “no procedure”.

Frankly,  I think that most women seem to really like it when a man acts with confidence and decisiveness – when he calls, plans, pays, initiates sex, and follows up.

What do you think? Is it old-school and patriarchal when men  “take the lead”?  Is it  disempowering and passive if women prefer this?

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

Join our conversation (212 Comments).
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  1. 1

    What I think is after 16 years of a marriage as a husband that did ALL the planning, ALL the courting, ALL the initiating and ALL the paying ALL the time that I’m sick of having to do ALL the work.   Now that I’m divorced and free of that BS I’m not looking to do that again anytime soon.    It’s not so much of not wanting to do some courting, initiating and planning and even paying for a few dates, but at some point there needs to be some input from the other side.   A relationship needs to be a two way give and take that both sides contribute to.   I’m looking to share a life with someone, not become their entertainment coordinator.

    1. 1.1

      I completely agree with you about it being a two way street. I think what Evan meant though was that men do all the planning, and women help move things along by accepting it and appreciating it with her feminine energy. The man can still do all the work while the woman lets him know that she is interested in having him continue to court her.

      If a woman offers herself up to the man before he’s invested anything, she’ll probably end up being disappointed when all he was doing was using her for sex. Not pursuing sex prevents the woman from being used.

      1. 1.1.1

        Maybe so, but for me personally if after the 3rd or 4th date of me initiating, planning and paying and not getting much input from the woman, then I’m going to ‘fade’ and pursue someone that has as much vested interest in the relationship as I do.

        Also I’m a little perplexed as to the ultra-cautious nature many women have about being ‘used’ for sex, as if they themselves have no interest in it act.   If a person, man or woman, is emotionally mature enough to be dating in the first place then they should be willing to accept the consequences of their actions.   It almost seems as if people are looking for a way to gain all the rewards of a relationship without willing to accept any risk.

        Unfortunately love doesn’t work that way and no matter what you do there is always a chance of getting hurt.   If you’re not emotionally mature enough to accept these risks them maybe you shouldn’t be dating in the first place.

        1. popee

          In a weird way, sex is a means to an end to many women.   we are aware that this is in many ways a “currency” and that as such, it should be used sparingly. I’ll make a strange confession. I was one of these women who spent years not having sex because I associated it with love. I fell in love with someone recently and it didn’t work out, so I went on Tinder and had casual sex: the blandest, most forgetful experience ever.

          Then I discovered a sugar daddy website which is the only way I will have casual sex with a man. If I don’t feel “love” towards a man, or the possibility of a relationship I will NOT have any kind of sex unless it is transactional (i.e. no emotional relationship in the table) – an “arrangement”   –   from the very beginning. Getting gifts and cash from someone I like but not love in a weird way is the only acceptable means of sex for me if love in not on the table.

          I have stopped online dating otherwise and only meet men in normal situations for relationships now. It’s the only way to gauge if there is real   emotional attraction from the start. Otherwise it’s romantic “dating” is a transaction bait and I have a sugar daddy for that.

          The problem is that for many men online, sex IS transactional from the start and from my interactions with men on tinder, that is all that it ever becomes. So unless some form of courtship is on the table, women feel the “transactional” vibe and recoil instantly.   Men have to re-learn how to court and to understand the “vibe”   differences between an emotional connection and a transaction. Sex is too easy for women to find.

        2. Dina Strange

          “Also I’m a little perplexed as to the ultra-cautious nature many women have about being ‘used’ for sex, as if they themselves have no interest in it act.”    Because they DO end up being used for sex by men. That’s why. Women emotionally bond during sex, men not as much. Thus a woman has more to lose. If men were honest about their intentions (which means less sex, thus they are not) women would have been less careful about being used just for sex.

        3. mgm531



          “If men were honest about their intentions (which means less sex, thus they are not) women would have been less careful about being used just for sex.”

          Here we go again…blame the men for everything time.

          How about this?   If women were honest about their intentions of not wanting sex, but still want all the rewards of a relationship then men wouldn’t have to resort to ‘using’ them for sex.

          Or alternatively men and women can BOTH be honest with each other about what they want and cut out all the BS.   Sure would make things a lot easier, wouldn’t it?

        4. Richard

          “How about this?   If women were honest about their intentions of not wanting sex, but still want all the rewards of a relationship then men wouldn’t have to resort to ‘using’ them for sex.”


          Everyone being honest would seemingly be wonderful, but the problem is that when you’re first getting to know someone, you often have to play a little game.

          I’m sure many women and men have had the experience of being upfront about what they want only to find that the other person thinks they’re crazy for “rushing” the relationship or for talking about serious matters too early.

          In my experience, if I tell a woman I like her after only a date or two, she’s gone like a jet. And for some women, if they say they want a relationship, the guy feels like all the fun is gone and moves on to someone else.

          So, I guess through first-hand or second-hand experience, people associate honesty and forwardness as the death of a relationship. You don’t want to assume or expect too much and ruin something that could have evolved into something great.

          Also, even when some women do express their intention of wanting more than sex, some (manipulative) men will say they want the same thing, only to prove the opposite with their behavior. This is why holding out from a guy for an extended period of time (say 4-6 weeks or more) can really weed out a lot of manipulative people and protect the woman from heartache.

          I prefer honesty, but I find it hard to get from people. And my honesty about what I want often has the effect of ruining any mystery or romantic vibes that might have been there. It seems reality is a mood-killer.

        5. JennLee

          A woman that doesn’t allow herself to be used for sex, can’t be used for sex.

        6. mgm531

          “Everyone being honest would seemingly be wonderful, but the problem is that when you’re first getting to know someone, you often have to play a little game.”

          Truth be told I was being just a little facetious in that I was trying to relay my frustration of being assumed guilty be association.   So many women have an automatic assumption of a ‘men are dogs’ mentality that it feels like we all labeled as guilty manipulators only interested in sex by default.   I as man don’t like to be thought of as a manipulative horn dog any more than a woman would like being thought of as a manipulative gold digger who only uses sex as a tool to get what she wants.

          Both are unfair stereotypes and I certainly don’t think of all women this way, so why is it acceptable to think of all men this way?   In reality men, like women, are just people that want more or less the same thing from a relationship.   So both men and women should show a little respect for each other and not assume the worst.

        7. Dreben

          Women are always quick to insist they like sex, but then turn around and claim they don’t actually like sex and it’s some big act and conferring some sort of great gift on a man to lower herself to have sex with him.

          Either you like sex or you don’t. And if you think having sex means a lower being is blessed by you, then you clearly do not like sex at all. When sex is occurring as it should, it is mutually good for both parties, and science actually shows better for the woman than the man.

        8. Radiance

          Just curious about something and would love to hear your male perspective.

          When did three or four dates equal a relationship?

          Dating is just dating…a time to get know each other to figure out if two people are a good enough fit to even be in a relationship.   Mature healthy relationship oriented adults date for a couple months before making the decision to be in an exclusive relationship.

          As for sex, it is cheap and easy to get today.

        9. James

          “Also I’m a little perplexed as to the ultra-cautious nature many women have about being ‘used’ for sex, as if they themselves have no interest in it act. “

          I have to call BS on this whole “He used me for sex” line that many females like to throw around. This type of language does a major disservice to anyone who has actually been a victim. Things like rape and sexual assault are serious matters, and semantics should not be manipulated in order to blur the lines between the trivial and the serious by making the innocuous seem damaging.   In the absence of force or coercion, and assuming you are a grown adult of sound mind and body, nobody can “use” you for sex unless you want and allow yourself to be used.   And if you want to be used then you are not being used at all.   If you clearly and consciously exercise your own free will by choosing to have sex then you simply were not used – end of story.   Neither were you “taken advantage of” and neither did he “have his way with you”.   It doesn’t matter if you claim to regret it long after the fact – if you did what you wanted to do at the time then you have full responsibility for your actions and can blame no one else.

          A woman in a good relationship with a man who apparently desires her doesn’t seem to mind being “used for sex”,   at least not as long as he continues providing her gratification, because she perceives this as ongoing validation for her womanhood, attractiveness, and vanity.   But if a woman has sex with a man who soon after decides to part ways with her, she may feel differently, because his disappearance can make her doubt her desirability.   She might have thoroughly enjoyed herself at the time, but if she later realizes he doesn’t want her enough to keep coming back for more and she starts feeling rejected and undesirable, then and only then is when she will suddenly start to “complain” about being “used”. But the fact that she ultimately wanted him more than he wanted her does not make him guilty of using her. So perhaps the real reason she is upset is because her ego has been bruised, and she actually feels more “scorned” than “used”.

          And maybe this type of nebulous language is also a woman’s way of trying to feel less culpable about her own naughty behavior. Because if you can convince everyone that you are an unsuspecting victim then you can basically have all the casual sex you want with a clean conscience. A woman can all but absolve herself from responsibility and guilt by creating the impression that the man somehow preyed upon her “innocence” and/or manipulated her.   As if every female is just some virtuous, naïve babe in the woods, pure as the driven snow, until some beguiling male comes along and completely and unexpectedly tricks her into doing something she doesn’t want to do. Yeah right, and if you believe that’s the way it is then I’ve got some prime oceanfront property in Nebraska for sale.

          But if some females still insist they are being “used for sex” and if they truly are as devastated by it as they would like everyone to believe, then there is a very simple solution to this so-called problem:   STOP BEING USED FOR SEX!   You have control over your own body and what you do with it and who you share it with.   Take ownership of your own actions, lose the drama queen act, and stop playing the innocent victim card just because things didn’t work out the way you wanted.

        10. DatingHaze

          Yes, women want sex too. Some in a relationship, some casually. But you’re missing the point. The majority of women out there are not scared of love & relationships & getting hurt. We know it’s worth the “risk”.

          But we feel “used for sex” when that’s all the guy talks about. And zero interest is shown to even so much as know your name. First dating app message after matching is “you look like you’d be fun to wrestle 😉”.   That came from someone who’s profile said they wanted a real, deep relationship.

          Then there’s also those who lie & say they’re single, when they’re not. But they’ll have sex with you until you figure it out. Which doesn’t take too long. But, who cares? They got some a** at least!

          Their behavior is not a consequence of MY dating actions.

          Some guys just lie to get sex. Period. And that’s not something for me to “accept as the risks” for finding love. It’s me realizing someone is trying to use me for sex.

          Those are the ones I stay far away from. 🤓


      2. 1.1.2

        Highly disagree. If you want to be in a sexless relationship pursue a woman who you have to “convince” to sleep with you then rinse repeat the rest of your life- or be in a relationship with someone who wants you from day one. There are zero ways to be sure you’re not being used. It’s better to find out soon rather than later.

        1. Angela

          Being used for sex?!?!? You cannot use someone who participated willingly..this is just something women told other women to deter them from having sex just for pleasure, or to quickly and allowing men to think women like sex just as men do..which would drive down the value of their “currency”..there is a reason it is said to “cheapen” a women if she “gives him” sex to easily..when women were only availed economic resources through marrying, it was essentially the only bargaining power they had..we also socially create narratives that make us comfortable, and a women that likes sex for sex and simply for her pleasure scares men..they mistakenly believe that if this is the case she will seek out other mates even while with him, since he wont be able to satisfy her fully..which may be the case if he thinks sex is only for him and only focuses his pleasure, and dosent realize her almost infinite capacity for pleasure..bottom line stop telling women what makes them women and worth pursuing..also if your wife or girlfriend seemingly dosent like sex, that’s on you my friend, screw her better..understand that a women that ” just dosent like sex” is infact bored, not necessarily with you but your apparent lack of need for her (especially when society and men scream their need for variety and to ” spread their seed”) women in turn, essentially shut down for fear of abandonment, and resort to the only thing they have been taught keeps a man (using her currency sparingly)..really she just needs to be reminded of the passion and pleasure that were present when you 1st started having sex..when you absolutely had to have her, almost animalisticly..women are turned on most by your immense want for her and by remembering, and replaying past immense passionate encounters, visualizing if you will..women are also visually stimulated, it just stimulates differently..because visual stimulation leads to remembering of past pleasure..men and women may be different, but no so different as they have been made out to be, that was just indoctrinated to make men feel socially better and allowing the powers that be to control them.. stop assuming a “good woman” doesn’t like pleasure as much as any human..truth be told women are pleasure driven creatures, society and economically dependent women just revamped this with gifts, flowers candy ect ect..if something is socially acceptable it will flourish, if it isnt it will ppoooof disappear like a dude ” using a women for sex”

    2. 1.2

      Know this only too well….been there.   Hence I’m staying single !!

      1. 1.2.1

        To: James

        You said “I have to call BS on this whole “He used me for sex” line that many females like to throw around. ”

        If there are 2 men talking about business, the 1st guy convince the 2nd guy to invest his money on the promising business and the 2nd guy agree.

        for first few months the profit is good, then on the 4th month the 1st guy disappear with all the money, will you say the 2nd guy is cheated or will you say it’s BS because the 2nd guy is a mature adult who gave the money consciously, without someone putting gun on his head?


        1. Persephone

          Angel, very good point. This reminds me of a handsome guy that I saw for a short time. At five foot six, he wasn’t conventionally handsome in the North American sense, but he was handsome to me. He told me on three separate occasions that he was looking for someone to have a long-term relationship with–and wanted to invest that in me. He said that after numerous dates with me. Once we finally got around to having sex, he stopped calling me.

          After sex, he told me he didn’t think his performance had been very good, that   he was embarrassed because we had been friends before we started going out, and a handful of other lame reasons why he seemed to regret having sex with me. At the time, I thought it was some Catholic shame they teach them about sex.   I told him it was amazingly wonderful for me, and that I had no complaints. And at the time it seemed like it was wonderful for him, too.

          I let a little time past, and then I sent him a short greeting in a text message. He responded back with an apology for doing a terrible job. I told him no, it was wonderful and that I wanted more. He texted back insisting did he didn’t do a good job. Again I texted back telling him that all I could think about is him, how wonderful his soft hair felt when I held him, and how I enjoyed it when……., well you get the point.

          He never texted me back. I haven’t heard from him since. It appears now as if he were using me for sex, and that’s what he felt guilty about rather than any poor performance, (which it was not).   When someone tells you they want a relationship and then disappears after sex, that is exactly what your analogy meant, Angel.

          I wasn’t really hurt, because it takes a long time for me to fall in love, but more than anything, I was puzzled. I give people the benefit of the doubt that they’re trying to be honest with me when they say they want a relationship.

          Ironically, with a different guy we both started out only wanting to use each other for sex, and it turned into a relationship.


        2. Tyrone

          @ Angel
          “If there are 2 men talking about business, the 1st guy convince the 2nd guy to invest his money on the promising business and the 2nd guy agree.
          for first few months the profit is good, then on the 4th month the 1st guy disappear with all the money, will you say the 2nd guy is cheated or will you say it’s BS because the 2nd guy is a mature adult who gave the money consciously, without someone putting gun on his head?”

          I would say this is a bad analogy. No one left with all the sex. Your body is still intact and you haven’t physically lost anything. Also it may not be true that his intent was to use you for sex just because you feel like it was. He could just be someone that is unsure about what he really wants. Or maybe he changed his mind. Or maybe someone he was really interested in got back to him. Or you did something he didn’t like. Who knows? And even if you asked and he told, there is still the possibility of him lying about the real answer in order to spare his/your feelings. Men and women do these things all the time.

    3. 1.3
      stacie cole

      I am a wife that’s been married for 7 years and I have always been like you in my marriage. It boils down to the fact that relationships should be 50/50 or better yet …100/100!!!

    4. 1.4

      I’m wondering why you did all the work?   Seems to me that on some level you allowed this to happen in order to fill a need in you do it all.

      1. 1.4.1

        You are correct in some ways.   I did allow myself to be put into that situation because at the time I falsley equated doing all the work meant that I was ‘doing the right thing’.   But in reality I was just enabling a behaviour in my then spouse that contributed to a dysfunctional marriage and my own resentment and misery.   I had always been of the mind that divorce was worse than the misery of a bad marriage.   It was the ‘nuclear’ option that I dared not touch because of my fear of the consequences.   Now, however, after having been through a divorce that was indeed painful (and VERY expensive) I have to come realize it was the other way around.   Divorce from a bad marriage is a much better solution than remaining a miserable relationship in which no one was happy.   My lesson that I have learned is that never again will I allow myself to be treated in such a way again where I am the one doing all the work, making all the plans and arrangements.   It’s a behaviour I simply will not tolerate in my next relationship.

        1. Marika


          I  thought this stuff was cultural and assumed you were American, but then I noticed you put the ‘u’ in words like behaviour.  In Australia (and parts of Europe), after one or two dates, most women definitely start planning, initiating, paying etc. At least the women I know. Some of my friends even initiate and plan the first date. I personally like it if the man organises the first one (and I’ll say yes to anything he suggests to encourage this), but it would be weird for me to sit back and do nothing past the first couple of dates.

          It feels really good as a woman for the man to  initiate, but I can definitely see why you would want the woman to start stepping up and showing interest, rather than being passive, for multiple dates. I think that’s entirely fair. I also wouldn’t like to sit back and wonder if a guy is going to ring and when and what he may or may not organise as a date when we’ve been dating for weeks or months!

          The sex thing is a different story. Men and women view sex differently. It’s hard to understand without being a woman, but it is pretty soul destroying, even if you greatly enjoy sex (as I do) to feel as though you’re being ‘used’ for your body.

    5. 1.5

      I needed this comment. I’ve been ghosted two times, and in each case it was a relief because I had to initiate, plan, and follow through on all of our dates. It’s not a matter of masculinity or femininity or morality, it’s a matter of investment in the relationship. That’s a shared responsibility.

      To the rest of the comment section: Wake up sheeple! Women pursue relationships for sex as well! Having different sex drives than men doesn’t mean no sex drive at all, for fook’s sake.

      Chivalry is not dead and it’s still in conflict with human nature and reason itself.

    6. 1.6

      mgm I like your perspective here and it sounds totally reasonable. Im fairly new to getting back into dating. I like being courted and pursued- I think in the beginning, the first couple or 3 dates, it’s a nice gesture if he pays. As things go on, I think it’s Ok to be the one to treat for a date or do something nice for the man I’m dating, or even tell him- hey, I’d like to try this restaurant or make reservations. I’m not saying I want to take over the relationship; I think it’s more enjoyable if both people have some input. I also do not expect the man I’m dating to pay in every single instance- dating is expensive. I don’t ever want to come across as someone who is entitled. You are right, I think this goes both ways. Thanks!

  2. 2

    From a male perspective, I really prefer to take the lead. Despite my social anxiety,   and as much as I sometimes feel overwhelmed with putting myself out there, I don’t think I’ve ever been interested in a woman who asked me out or overtly flirted with me.


    That’s not to say that I didn’t find them physically appealing, but something about having them do most of the work just didn’t make me feel like dealing with them much. I usually kept most of these women at arm’s length.

    One woman I am somewhat interested in recently told me that she decided to go to some stranger’s house for a “fun” hookup after speaking only briefly on Tinder. Ultimately she left before anything happened when he didn’t turn out to be how he looked in his profile. I still like her, but this revelation really put me off of her for a while due to the potential dangers involved. I can look past it, but this type of behavior is not something I appreciate in a woman who could potentially be the mother of my children.

    Most studies suggest, at least to me, that women desire sex at much as men, but not as frequently as men. While men desire sex almost daily due to high testosterone levels, women usually desire it during the peak of their fertility in their cycle. They can desire it other times, of course, but from my understanding from studies and talking to women, if they are not in a relationship and not at their cyclical peak in fertility and desire, many women can do without sex in their lives.

    I know of women who have gone years without sex because they simply haven’t thought about it much, and these are not women with abnormally low hormone levels.

    So, no matter what women feel, I think they’d be best served by letting men do the work. Otherwise I think too many guys would use a woman’s  desire for them against her, turning her into an unintended booty call. Also, sex releases “bonding” chemicals which I think make NSA sex just too detrimental to all involved.

    If a woman is only looking for sex, that is her prerogative, but she should then not be upset or surprised if other men learn of this behavior and subsequently do not want to date her.

    1. 2.1

      “I don’t think I’ve ever been interested in a woman who asked me out or overtly flirted with me.”

      Truth is, a shameless flirt will get more “hits”, so to speak, than the woman who does nothing. Does the overt flirting put you off because it makes a woman seem easy, or does it make you uncomfortable because it is too aggressive for you?

      1. 2.1.1

        “Does the overt flirting put you off because it makes a woman seem easy, or does it make you uncomfortable because it is too aggressive for you?”

        Probably a little of both, but moreso the aggressive part. I don’t want a girl to be easy, but too hard (for me) to get is so fun either.

        Subtle flirting is far more effective on me. Little smiles, hinting comments about spending time together, laughing and smiling with me, light touches.

        I’ve had some girls actually be not so subtle, by kissing me or touching me very soon in an interaction or by complimenting me a bit much. It just feels strange, and a little fake on some women.

        Subtlety is key I think. I know some guys don’t always get the hints, but I think you can be flirty in a sophisticated, feminine, and mature way, without resorting to excessive flirting which in my experience comes off as goofy and sometimes fake.

        A girl I’m currently talking to is very subtle about everything, to the point where I’m not sure if she’s actually interested, but she is very responsive and comes to talk to me whenever she gets a moment to do so.

        I therefore feel good in moving things forward with her. I may be wrong, but it feels better this way. Another girl I was talking to would hug me and kiss me very early in our interactions and it felt too contrived. She’s now dating someone else and I’m fine with that.

        1. Noemi

          “I’ve had some girls actually be not so subtle, by kissing me or touching me very soon in an interaction or by complimenting me a bit much. It just feels strange, and a little fake on some women.”

          Different strokes for different folks, I guess. It’s interesting to me how some men would think it’s awesome when a woman is blunt enough to convey her interest in a man, while  some would view that as too easy. There doesn’t seem to be universal agreement on this type of thing.  


        2. Greg

          It turns me on when a woman is aggressive and playful sexually. The greatest relationship from the past was a wonderful gal who was ‘all over me.’   I do want to be wanted and tire of more often than not being the initiator. Sex was an important feature of our relationship. We both enjoyed that type of interaction, and it was a springboard to enjoying every other thing we were involved with. That she let me in was a consistent confirmation that I was okay and we were okay. If you cut me off from the intimacy of sex you are saying without words that I am not worthy. If I am not worthy then I am heading in the wrong direction in maintaining our relationship.

          Of course this is with the understanding that everyone is healthy and in good physical and mental order.


    2. 2.2

      ”  I know of women who have gone years without sex because they simply haven’t thought about it much, and these are not women with abnormally low hormone levels. ”   Women have sex on tap if they so wish , this really proves ( & from own experience ) that the female sex drive is a tiny fraction of a mans , women know this & use this disparity to manipulate men.   About a third of Western women have zero sex drive & are repulsed by sex , a way of  killing  the male libido without adverse effects is sorely needed , & would sell very well.

      1. 2.2.1

        You know nothing Kevin.

      2. 2.2.2

        Kevin, how bitter your comment is. Make peace with women (this way you’ll make love with them)

      3. 2.2.3
        Sarah b.

        Whoa! Just whoa! Some of us women LOVE sex and find that men that swear they want a woman that loves sex but then can’t actually keep up, like at all,…

      4. 2.2.4

        Funny how men like to espouse things like this and never stop to wonder if this is indeed true why this is. Well they do but they conclude “Women just don’t have a libido or like sex”. Of course they would. The other conclusion, that the reason women don’t like sex is that often it just isn’t very good, that there are many men out there who are pretty selfish and are not that great in bed, only care about their own orgasms and have no interest in  pleasuring women just getting their own rocks off  would go against their self image of being some kind of Casanova sex god and be a bit too depressing I guess.

        Yes maybe SOME women (the attractive young kind)  can get sex on tap. But can they get GOOD sex on tap? That’s the bigger question.

        1. bogus

          It actually takes skill and experience to get a woman off consistently.   Men are much simpler.

        2. Emily, the original


          It actually takes skill and experience to get a woman off consistently.  

          Not if she either does things during her session with you to help herself along or shows you what she needs.

        3. Rodney

          Well now, all you really have to do is lay there, don’t you?

        4. Angela

          Couldn’t have said it better myself..perfection..sure to trigger some male backlash I bet..

      5. 2.2.5

        Kevin, I’m a bloke.    What you say is utterly incorrect.   In my experience in over 50 years on this planet, women (i) are filthier than men (in a good way); (ii) are at least as interested in sex as men, and probably more so; and (iii) can have orgasms that are way more intense than our fairly ordinary orgasms.   All women are horny; socially, many of them disguise this very effectively, for cultural / hypocrisy reasons.   Women read men and they can spot a conservative, insecure man a mile off.   They’ll play as “not very interested in sex” with blokes like you.   However, once a woman meets a man who won’t judge her for being horny, she will often drop the pretence.

    3. 2.3

      Richard, I didn’t know men still thought that way. I didn’t know that men still wanted the virginal type women. From what I had heard, if a woman puts out, everybody wanted to date her, LOL!

    4. 2.4

      This is from only your perspective though..women dont exist just in relation to men..new flash sometimes we are out for our own selves, interest and pleasure..not for men or what they think of us or what they want!! Not to mention your entire perception of fertility and presence of a relationship is inherently false..females wouldn’t have evolved cryptic ovulation. And shedding of the uterine wall if the only time they had or wanted sex was around peak fertility OR the presence of a relationship..women dont emotionally bond during sex any different than a man does, no matter how much they are told so, or how much women tell you so..she is trying to be and do what is expected of her..they are also not biologically designed to seek out a mate that will stick around for possible off spring..that is socially recent..females evolved this capacity for multiple orgasms absent the refractory period that males have, to ensure multiple mates to increase genetic variety and sperm competition ( the shape of your penis and her tubes is essentially living proof of this) multiple where paternity is cryptic protects the offspring from infanticide, and insure investment from each potential father..especially on the dangerous plains of Africa or elsewhere 3 fathers protect a female and offspring a hell of a lot better than 1…this is why we have such issues with genders and such not to mention physical chronic ailments, obesity, simply put, humans are not living the life we have evolved to live..what we want socially, mentally, or societal expections, may be powerful   however dosent make evolution or our bodies catch up any faster..stop seeing things through societies rose colored genders glasses

  3. 3

    Asking for sex and asking for a date are two different pursuits. I don’t think asking or pursuing a man for sex is a big deal.     The real social stigma is when a women pursues a man for a relationship.   I think asking a man for date is more stigmatizing and cringe inducing than being sexually assertive.   At least in the eyes of other women.   As for men, I don’t think they care either way as long as they get the result they want whether it be intercourse or a relationship or both.

    1. 3.1

      I can see what you’re saying, but I believe women, for the sake of their best interests, shouldn’t offer men sex. Let men offer them sex and if the women want it, they can accept it. Unless the guy is really not interested, he may just use the woman for sex when what she really wants to do is entice him into a relationship.

      Again, asking for a date is basically letting him know you want him, which can lead him to getting sex from you without commitment. Most men are not like this, but why would you want to take the chance by giving away all your power in the situation?

      Pursuing a guy is a recipe for heartache. Let us handle the excessive rejection.

      And I think you nailed it on the head when yo said “in the eyes of other women.” As far as I am concerned, it’s just women competing intrasexually. Don’t want a girl stealing the guy you want? Make her feel bad for pursuing anything long-term with him.

      Men may not care if they get what they want, but studies show that men do care about a woman’s sexual history and proclivity for sexual assertiveness when he considers her for a long-term committed relationship. I wouldn’t be too pleased if I learned that my (future) wife had gone out of her way to acquire hookups.

      If I found out a girl was offering herself up to guys without first determining if he was looking for the same thing as her (usually done through a series of dates or at least non-sexual hangouts), I wouldn’t be keen on her anymore.

      1. 3.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Just curious, was this just one woman (the one you mentioned in #2)? WEre the other women where you found she indulged? How do you find out with those women? Did you ask her sexual history or did she volunteer the information?


        If you don’t mind answering, I have some followup thoughts depending on your answer. Thanks.

        1. Richard

          In this case, the woman volunteered the information, but I’ve heard about other woman’s sexual histories from their close friends and others who spent time with them on a regular basis. Now, since I was not there for the other cases, I can’t be certain that their sexual histories are true, but I don’t see what anyone had to gain from telling me such information.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Thanks for replying, Richard.


          So here are my thoughts.


          1) A woman should NEVER disclose her sexual history. If asked point blank, if she can’t redirect, then I’d suggest she lie. No good can come of telling the truth. Who she was with before she was with him is none of his business. He shouldn’t ask. And she should never volunteer.


          2) What kind of “friend” outs their friend’s sexual exploits to the guy she’s dating? If these friends were women (and I suspect they were, cuz guys don’t go around backstabbing their friends) — they are sh*ts. So either this woman has no idea the kinds of women she’s associating with or she’s that kind of woman herself (birds of a feather and all that). It’s probably for the best that you lost interest.


          You sound like a good guy, Richard. All the best to you in your search for a mate 🙂

        3. Dreben

          Sexual history is very much the business of a partner. If you’re not ready to be honest and truthful to a partner, you are not ready for a relationship, point blank, period.

          Hiding the truth, outright lying, refusing to show your true nature, none of those are the basis of a healthy relationship. If you have something you are shamed of, it’s time to admit you made bad decisions and be open about it, rather than pretending you are the perpetual victim just because someone would like honesty out of you for an important character trait.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Oh please, Dreben.

          Your sexual history is none of your partner’s business. And hers (assuming you’re a him, although your sense of “entitlement” to your partner’s history sounds like a woman’s) — is none of yours.

          If your partner’s sexual history is that important to you to make a decision on his/her character, then date a virgin.

          A person’s sexual history does not have anything to do with their character, as in whether they’re kind, thoughtful, or trustworthy.

          I’m sure there were plenty of virgins who married and then cheated on their spouses. And many players who remained faithful after marriage (ala Warren Beatty and a friend of mine).

          Sexual history is just sexual history. A woman who was nice and slept around is still a nice woman. A bitch who slept around will still be a bitch.

          Only insecure people ascribe such importance to  a person’s sexual history as a determinant of character.

        5. bogus

          So your sexual history says nothing about your character?   all our actions say something about us.

  4. 4

    I’ve been dating a great guy for five months. I’m used to dating really assertive guys and  have become used to  letting the guy take the lead in the relationship. I feel like that’s caused a lot of confusion in my current relationship because this guy seems to expect me to initiate things, at least sometimes. It’s actually really refreshing, but it definitely caused some miscommunication before I figured out his thought process. One time he brought up sex, but then got distracted by the TV. It’s not something I usually need to bring up, so I just waited for him to re-initiate the discussion, but he felt uncomfortable bringing it up again. We finally got on the same page, but it almost didn’t happen. Maybe I need to stop being so traditional in my personal life – I actually have a high level job  where I tell people what to do for a living.

    By the way, I disagree with the person who stated that women don’t like to have sex as much as men. I think it may depend on age and possibly the status of the relationship. I’m in my 40’s and I would be happy to have sex every day with the right person. I definitely wasn’t that way in my 20’s though.

    1. 4.1

      “By the way, I disagree with the person who stated that women don’t like to have sex as much as men. I think it may depend on age and possibly the status of the relationship. I’m in my 40’s and I would be happy to have sex every day with the right person. I definitely wasn’t that way in my 20’s though.”


      I did not say that women like to have sex less than men. On the contrary, sex is very pleasurable for all and women are no less likely to like it than men. What I said was that studies show that due to low testosterone levels in women (since their levels are dependent on their menstrual cycle), they are less apt to desire it as frequently or as voraciously as men.

      You state that you would do it every day with the right person, so perhaps for you it is more about sharing in the emotional aspects rather than the pure desire for physical pleasure  that is of more interest to you.

      Plus, you’ve been together for 5 months, you can bring up sex whenever you want. The problem lies in women pursuing men or offering sex  before  getting a sense of where the guy stand on it all,  rather than letting the guy come to them.

      1. 4.1.1

        There’s also a major gender difference in the cost-benefits analysis of sex with a new person/near stranger for men vs. for women. People have spotted the social aspect of this, i.e. that men gain status for sleeping around while women lose status for the same. But there’s also the issue of the risk to health and safety entailed by any sexual encounter. The great majority of that risk is on the woman’s side: she’s risking rape, STI’s, and pregnancy (depending on her birth control situation) when she secludes herself with a man in order to have sex. A great many men refuse to wear condoms or don’t use them correctly. She’s also risking humiliation and abuse once she gets in bed with the guy.

        Because of the inequality between men and women, and because of physical differences, men are less likely to be infected with an STI, to be raped or humiliated or abused, and physically do not risk pregnancy. So OF COURSE they’re more casual about having sex. I would be too if I was not taking any significant risk by doing so.

        1. Dreben

          Sorry, not buying that. If that were true, women would remain virgins until marriage, but most women sleep around in their prime sexual years, and only begin to cut off sex when they are older, trying to trap a man.

          Evan has a few articles up on not using sex as a weapon. It keeps coming up because many women think that’s how to get a man to do what she wants.

          A young virgin woman can easily get commitment from a man. Most women however are completely uninterested in commitment at those ages, instead choosing to enjoy their high SMV as a power play.

  5. 5


    Do I believe that men should take the lead? Absolutely.

    I do feel that people differ in their preferences, however.  While every woman woman can practice the free will to initiate a conversation with a man and give him hints that she’s into him, some men will appreciate this while others will not. For  every man who says he loves it when a woman is confident enough to approach him and communicate her interest in him, there is another who states that this sort of behavior is too aggressive.  

    P.S. I think it’s good for all women should do some initiating, just to put them in men’s shoes. I’ve had friends be incredibly rude to guys who approached them at bars. It isn’t easy for most men to approach the object of their interest, and to be told “eeew” just by walking up to a woman and saying “hi” is just soul-crushing.


    1. 5.1

      ”  I’ve had friends be incredibly rude to guys who approached them ” This is why the majority of men will no longer bother to approach , as this is very common , most young women do this , worked as a doorman a while back & this was a typical scenario. I would understand if the man did not respect boundaries & was pushy , but they seemed to revel in shooting down men as nastily as possible. Is it any wonder a growing number of men view women as hostile & to be avoided !!

      1. 5.1.1
        Emily, the original


        ”  I’ve had friends be incredibly rude to guys who approached them ”

        While no one should be rude to someone who approaches them politely, a lot of men don’t know how to read the “buy” and “approach me” signals. If they knew how to read the signs, they wouldn’t get shot down as much. A woman will let a man know if she wants to be approached. If she is young and attractive, she is getting approached a lot, and usually by people she has expressed no interest in.

        1. Kevin

          Hi Emily ,

          Men are CRAP at reading the very subtle female signals , simply because the genders brains are wired totally differently , however less & less men even LOOK at women , let alone approach , read this blog post , the comments have some bitter , mainly male comments ,be warned !!


          Scott & Emily McKay very much underscore Evan & are on the same page , dishing out ” tough love ” to BOTH genders is needed sometimes!!


        2. Emily, the original


          Men are CRAP at reading the very subtle female signals , simply because the genders brains are wired totally differently.

          While that may be true, and it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference between basic friendliness and genuine interest, a man who can’t pick up that a woman is ignoring him, avoiding him, not making eye contact, not making any effort to talk to him, etc., shouldn’t be approaching women.

      2. 5.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Hi Kevin,

        Even though your friends may have been mortified by the nasty rejections, there is a bright side. Obviously, they found those women attractive. But since those women didn’t find your friends attractive, their true nasty natures were out there on display, and your friends dodged a bullet.

        Imagine if those nasty women reciprocated interest and instead showed her “nice” side. Then your friends get smitten. They’re in a relationship. When they fight, she’ll be a harpy.

        I believe women who are truly nice people, are nice even when they’re rejecting approaches of men whom they don’t find attractive.

        Nasty rejections indicate that the women are nasty inside, but hide it when it suits them.

        The only exception to this is that some guys are pushy and won’t take no for an answer if a woman is nice. So she has to resort to being rude to get him to back off.

        Personally, most guys who’ve approached me whom I wasn’t interested in ended up becoming friends or at least friendly acquaintances, such that we’d exchange pleasantries if we recognized each other at other venues.

        There was only one guy where I had to say exasperatedly and bluntly, “Look, I’m not interested.” That was about as rude as I got.

        If your friends got belittling treatment, shame on those women and your friends should thank their lucky stars (even though they didn’t feel thankful in that moment).

        1. Christine

          In my own admittedly anecdotal and non-scientific observations, most of the men I see getting “nasty” rejections are the ones who approach women out of their league (at least, looks-wise).

          I wonder if men might not get shot down as much if they accurately assessed themselves, and played more within their league? Just as you say that women should graciously accept their “market value” and make their dating decisions accordingly–maybe men   could also benefit from that, in deciding who to approach.

          For instance, I’ll never forget this one time I was at an alumni function.   I met this drop-dead gorgeous girl (in fact, she’s done some modeling).   Then this very “nerdy” looking guy approached this girl.   From the moment I laid eyes on that poor guy, I felt bad for him and knew he stood no chance.   It was like watching Steve Urkel trying to get Naomi Campbell.

          I’ll never forgot the mean-spirited way she shot him down, or the look on his face when she did.   Needless to say, I didn’t stay in touch with her and become friends with her, after I saw her true colors.   Yet I also couldn’t help thinking he was delusional to think he could get a girl like that.

          Not to say all beautiful women are nasty.   For instance, my Mila Kunis look-alike friend is nice about turning guys down (which she has to, since she’s with someone).   But the majority of nasty shutdowns I’ve seen have been a variation of the above scenario.



        2. Kevin

          Hi Karmic ,
          These were not my friends , these were just the male patrons ( greatly outnumbering female )   at venues that I worked on security at , my actual friends & I would never frequent them , preferred the rave then hard house / trance clubs which had far better atmosphere & never any trouble , I often got ( & mostly lost !! ) phone no’s at those places , without the typical approach. What surprised me were the sheer numbers of nasty young women , I couldn’t   agree more about bullet dodging , in fairness to you ladies , the ” media ” does influence women from when they were girls to view men in a negative light , a large percentage of women do detest men in general , have had the misfortune to work with a group of man hating women

        3. Karmic Equation

          Hi Christine,

          I agree that this is the case. 8-9 woman approached by 5-guy. However, that doesn’t excuse the women from being nice.

          In fact, I would say this is another negative of beautiful women (usually crazy), and, anecdotally anyways, often not nice, that men overlook in their lust.

          To some extent, teenage movies are bad for nerdy men. Some of them teach that nerds get the 10s. Rarely happens in real life.

          And the 10 girls in those movies are usually portrayed as sweet. Rarely happens in real life.

          Men are better off pursuing just a little out of their league in looks, not a lot. But, again, the person has to be self-aware of where they truly rate in the “objective” scale, just like women need to be, in order to have the best odds.

    1. 6.1

      That was pretty funny. You can see that even when the guy said yes, he had a hard time taking the woman seriously. I think most men, me included, are suspicious of women who offer sex too soon. We may wonder why she has to offer it rather than waiting for it to come to her.

  6. 7

    I don’t know about these men who are ‘turned off’ by women approaching them for sex. Is this really an issue???

    I’ve always thought part of the problem is that  men will sleep with women they are not interested or even really attracted to. So the woman ends up getting used when she’s thinking that sex will lead to something.

    1. 7.1
      Karmic Equation

      I agree Morris. Women who subconsciously “use” sex to try to get into a relationship are the ones who end up feeling “used” by men when she doesn’t get a relationship after having sex.


      Hence I always advocate that women have sex because she WANTS to have sex, because she wants to experience sex with that particular guy. Not because she has an ulterior motive (e.g., to gain love or a relationship).

      1. 7.1.1

        @Karmic Equation:   Hear, hear!   If you want sex, have it.   If you don’t want sex, don’t have it.   But it smacks of immature dishonesty to pretend you want sex and then blame a man for not giving you a relationship as a result.

  7. 8

    I absolutely agree with the fact that most women really like it when the man takes the lead,calls, plans, pays, initiates sex and follows up – It may be old-school but it still very much applies to what I want and all my girlfriends. I don’t think its disempowering to women at all.   I also believe the fact that men are turned off by women who are the aggressors.   Don’t know if its right or wrong either – but I think that is just the society we live in whether we like it or not.   I just don’t think men however pursue anymore with all the easy access to dating people through social media, dating apps, and within this current ‘hook-up’ culture. Men are  lazy  because unfortunately they can be nowadays – there’s just too many options everywhere.   So, yes the roles are changing and our society are losing the dating  culture, the  courting, and everyone is confused on what role they play but like I said I don’t think its because men are intimidated its because they don’t have to do anything special  to find a woman who will give them what they want for that moment.
    So, I’d like to believe you when you are giving us advice to hold out for the guy that treats us  right and treats us  with the respect that  we  deserve, but I don’t think guys work like this anymore in this society.   Even good ones can be lazy, be aloof to returning your calls/texts and just always have you on the back burner, because in this society and especially in big cities men can get their fix anywhere without doing any work since there are so many options out there.

    1. 8.1

      “So, I’d like to believe you when you are giving us advice to hold out for the guy that treats us  right and treats us  with the respect that  we  deserve, but I don’t think guys work like this anymore in this society.   Even good ones can be lazy, be aloof to returning your calls/texts and just always have you on the back burner, because in this society and especially in big cities men can get their fix anywhere without doing any work since there are so many options out there.”

      Perhaps you’re meeting the wrong guys, but my friends and I put a lot of work into treating women right and moving a relationship along. In my experience, I see more women not appreciating a guy’s efforts than the other way around. I get that women want the guys their attracted to to approach them, but they usually don’t seem to manage that well enough and when someone does approach them, they can be rather dismissive. But that’s life. These same women may also come to the realization that they ought to be less dismissive of guy’s who do approach if they want to find a relationship.

      Maybe you’re doing everything right and you’re unlucky with the guys, but you and any woman has to make sure you’re encouraging the right guys (guys who are not only attractive to you, but also strong in character) to move things along. That means not acting aloof yourself (you don’t have to jump to attention every time he’s around, but give him positive attention) and encouraging him to take you on proper dates (if that’s what you want) rather than letting him get away with sloppy, lazy plans.

      I don’t want to get into a debate here, but I also think all the things you hear about women wanting to go about their days without being bothered and all the noise about rape stats (whether true or false) is putting off a lot of men who don’t want to upset the wrong woman by making a move. I don’t think things are as bad as people make them seem, but I think a lot of guys can get the wrong message about how things should work. What happens when you don’t know what to do? You do nothing.

      1. 8.1.1

          “…encouraging him to take you on proper dates (if that’s what you want) rather than letting him get away with sloppy, lazy plans.”  

        This is the difficult part. Even good men can be sloppy in terms of properly courting women. I’ve experienced my fair share of the liquid courage that make men ask a woman to meet up at a bar or their place. I actually had two of these men recognize how sloppy this was and quickly redeemed themselves with roses and a proper date lol. But aside from resorting to the cavemen tactics of whacking them over the head with a club, how do we women encourage a man to act right? To me, it seems like lazy behavior from a man says a lot about him!

        1. bogus

          you continually talk about lazy male behaviour.   what effort do you put in to make it worthwhile?

    2. 8.2

      As a guy, let me tell you: you shouldn’t be listening to Richard’s advice. This is not the way it works anymore.

      This may be the way that Richard and his friends are, but this is not the majority of men.

      Men today want reciprocal investment. Personally, if I’m not getting 50% engagement on her part after date 2, I’m out.

      Listen people, gender roles are gone.

      1. 8.2.1

        You misinterpreted what I wrote.

        I did not say that a woman should not reciprocate interest and invest in a relationship. What I said was that women should let men do more of the work (she can give him all the interest and encouragement she wants) so that she has a lesser chance of being used for sex.

        I also said that she should hold out on sex for a longer period (not hold out on interest), so that she can weed out more of the men who are only looking for sex.

        I and every guy I know wants a girl that reciprocates our interest, but I also want a girl who I can trust to not be too easy for other guys to sleep with. I’m 28 and looking for the woman who could be my wife and the mother of my children. The last thing I want is someone who has no problem putting out on the first date with some guy she barely knows just because he’s good looking or remotely entertaining.

        I agree completely with Evan in that a big  reason some women end up in bad relationships is because they allow men to invest so little before investing one of their most important assets; their sexuality and fertility.

        Reciprocating interest is important and both parties should be doing that. However, engaging in sexual activities with someone you barely know is not a good way to gauge the potential of the relationship. And I feel the same is true for women pursuing sex. If a woman pursues sex, she may get it, but it will not help her  gauge the potential of the relationship.


        1. McLovin

          I did not misinterpret you at all, Richard. You’re just wrong.

          You repeated it again, and I still disagree. “Men should do more of the work…” I’m sorry, but that’s wrong.

          The all-caps yelling at the end is no more than trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

          Not going to happen. Ever.

        2. Curt


          the caps at the end were to make the words easier to notice, not to add finality to anything.

          Also, I understand what you’re saying, and while I agree that women should reciprocate and invest somewhat, I firmly feel that it benefits everyone, both men and women, and society as a whole, if women allow men to pursue and invest more.

          If women get hung up on someone who is not into her, she may very well become jaded. Jaded women on dates equals jaded men, which makes the whole dating environment even harder than it needs to be.

          And when it comes to raising families, women need men who will stick around to help care for her and the children. For all the change in society, studies still show that women by and large want families and expect men to help provide for them and the children.

          A man who refuses to invest in a woman or waits until she’s practically begging him to be with her is not much good to that woman or society as a family man or breadwinner.

          I’m all for people creating their own arrangements as suits them, but I remain something of a traditionalist because I know it works best for society and it works for me as a man who wishes to find a stable and trustworthy wife to  raise a family with.

        3. Tom10

          @ Curt
          “the caps at the end were to make the words easier to notice, not to add finality to anything”
          I dunno, writing in caps looks like shouting to me; it hurts my eyes.
          “A man who refuses to invest in a woman or waits until she’s practically begging him to be with her is not much good to that woman or society as a family man or breadwinner.”
          But this is predicated on the assumption that dating revolves exclusively on having/rearing children. I would argue that these days with contraception, assisted fertility, no social pressure to have children, freedom of the individual etc. etc. that for the vast majority of people and their dating lives, having children *isn’t* the primary focus of dating anymore. It’s just one aspect of many.

          “I’m all for people creating their own arrangements as suits them”
          Me too. Which is why I don’t have a problem with McLovin expecting women to do more of the work. If he can find a woman amenable to what suits him, great. If not, he will just have to work a bit harder.
          “I remain something of a traditionalist because I know it works best for society”
          I suppose as something of a vehement anti-traditionalist — is there some such a thing, an iconoclast maybe? — I don’t necessarily consider what works best for society as motivation for one’s behavior. Just different politics I guess.
          That said, I happen to agree with you that women have better outcomes in dating when men “pursue and invest more”, particularly in the initial stages for the very reasons you mentioned (high probability of being strung-along for easy sex). Where we differ is that I don’t have a problem with guys who kick back, allow women to do more of the spade-work and take what’s on offer. Women fought hard for equality so it’s not our position to tell them what to do now that they have it 🙂  

        4. Kevin

          Women do not get sexually frustrated , they don’t have the drive in the first place , plus it’s on tap if they so wished

      2. 8.2.2
        Not Jerry


        I only want to see you if you want to see me.

        If you don’t, I can’t take the time.

        You have to show an interest. You have to put yourself out there.   You have to let down your guard.   You may have to make a gesture. I don’t shirk my courting responsibilities, you will know exactly where you stand with me.   But you have to be all in.

        If you won’t do that, it might be a long wait.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Why should a woman be “all in” before you are? I don’t get that, Not Jerry.

        2. Not Jerry

          Who said that?

        3. Karmic Equation

          Read your own post in 8.2.2, Not Jerry.

          “…But you have to be all in.”

        4. Not Jerry

          I guess you are reading into things.   If I express interest, and she doesn’t, I can’t spend the time.

          How’s that?   I don’t pursue anyone who is not interested.   Who doesn’t seem interested.

      3. 8.2.3
        Karmic Equation

        Jury’s still out on whether I agree with you on the 50% investment after date 2.


        Can you elucidate on what you mean by “50% investment after date 2”?

        1. McLovin

          It could be simply put this way:

          I don’t chase. I’m not ever going to chase. The second I feel like I’m chasing, I’m out.

          There’s a couple reasons for it, I’m sure they’d bore you.

          I read a lot of dating and relationship blogs/forums, I read a lot of “gender wars” stuff, for lack of a better term.

          The reason I come  here occasionally is this particular blog really points out the farce that is modern dating, mating and relating.

          Here we have a dating advice site for high-powered women,  successful women, all demanding to be “courted.” It’s really quite entertaining.

        2. mgm531

          “Can you elucidate on what you mean by “50% investment after date 2”

          For me personally I start the vetting process even before I agree to go on a date, specifically with OLD.   I do this by seeing what types of responses I get with messages I send or messages that I receive.   For example, if I see that someone has viewed my profile and I like theirs I will often initiate a conversation by asking them a relevant question about themselves or their profile.   If all I get back is short answer and no corresponding question for me, then I make a mental note of that.   If I get the same response with multiple messages then I just sending messages, even if there does seem to be a mutual interest.   Quite frankly I don’t have the time nor the energy to try and keep a one way conversation going.   And if it’s hard to keep a two conversation going from simply sending messages back and forth then I imagine the difficulty in doing it on a date.   No thanks…

    3. 8.3

      Actually, the real reason men are cautious is because of rape hysteria and constant claims of sexual harassment, and vilification of male desire. It’s pretty obvious what decades of feminism has done, obvious to everyone except women.

    4. 8.4

      Haha you’re right. That’s why I love dating apps because it’s about as close as men will get to an even playing field. I went out with a girl and she didn’t like me, the very next day I was talking to another girl and she did like me after going out. You seem frustrated with your dating right now which I understand. You keep finding men who want casual dating/sex instead of relationship minded men? Blame it on all those “lazy/nasty men” if you wish.

  8. 9
    Not Jerry

    It’s the twenty-first century for god’s sake.   Women are not passively waiting for men to make a move anymore.   A guy needs to know she is interested, and beating around the bush is a waste of both our time.   The days of 6 dates to find out whether we want to go further are over.   I wrote about it in my profile!

    I talked to a woman on a dating site, and she actually said to me “Some man is gonna snap me up”.   I contradicted her, if she is waiting for someone to show up and sweep her off her feet she might have a long wait (we’re both older). I told her to figure out what she wants and make a move.

    She disappeared from the site, no big deal, I sure wasn’t pursuing her, and I really don’t pursue anyone.

    So here we are in the 21st century, and some women are still waiting for something, not sure what.   I can tell you I sure don’t go out of my way now.   If I don’t find obvious interest, I lose interest myself.   How much time do I have to fool around with game players like that?   Not nearly enough.

    1. 9.1

      Exactly. Gold star comment.

    2. 9.2
      irene petty

      What if the woman wants a sexual relationship?   In my life experience, i learned,   never ask a man for pleasure in sex.   No matter how many hurdles i have jumped and how much treating him like a king,   he will only give pleasure if she “deserves”   it. So 50% is not what they seem to want. They seem to want 100% her effort now.    I just gave up now.   There’s no point.

      As for women waiting to be snapped up,   maybe they are interested in being traditional?   I tried waiting and not waiting,   getting the same results from different methods.

      It’s true that men will just move on to the next woman as soon as they have to actually meet the needs she has.   I am supposed to be independent,   to make it a non effort for him.   So he can focus.   So he can be happy,   so i am not a miserable chore.   Yet it seems like they interpret it as the only tool to keep getting more from me. More king treatment,   more bending over backwards, for crumbs in return.    The idea of reciprocity has been skewed.    Now that makes me pushy and demanding or entitled.    Why should he reciprocate when it is his time? He got what he wanted and on to the next woman, to give him all the effort again.   He also gets to slam her socially,   so she has to disappear from his life,   he wouldn’t want any new woman to know how he treated her would he?

      1. 9.2.1
        Not Jerry

        Oh, no, Irene.

        You are dating the wrong man.

        I am a full service bf. I do it all. No one I’m with is going to be wanting for anything with me around, and I take pride in that.

        And that means everything. Sex, of course, if your car needs to be smogged, if your stair railing needs to be fixed. Everything I can do, and that’s substantial. I cook too!

        As to pleasure in sex, there are a hell of a lot of women with problems in that area. One said to me “It’s not the most important thing.”   “I can do that for myself anytime.”   It was cute but I don’t take that kind of nonsense. I got her off right then and there. A guy has to have pride, right? Wow, did she sleep soundly that night. Heh.

        Gee whiz.

        1. irene petty

          I am done,   I promised my daughter I would stop dating until she is 18.   The penalties are too high.

          What you put in print, I have heard before, I was promised before.   I can’t afford the mistake now.

        2. Not Jerry

          Irene, that’s almost exactly the past life of the person I wrote about.

          She told her daughter she wouldn’t date, and didn’t for about 15 years. The she met me. Oops. She was so brave! She really trusted me! It’s risky putting yourself out, putting trust in another person.
          Boy, she had to get rid of me! I was making her trust me!
          It will be one of my regrets.

          Irene, there are good things for you, for your life, and in your future. But you must be brave.   Take a chance!

  9. 10

    I find this topic interesting because I currently am in dating mode. I am a mid 40’s female and I have about 6 different men who are on my radar and am slowly getting to know each one. My experiences with them vary greatly and at times I have to cut the cord with a man because he is pursuing me too much and others because they don’t pursue me enough. I get frustrated sometimes because the ones that I am most interested in are not the ones moving forward as deeply as I would like. This puts me in a place where I want to become more forward with them and I find that I start initiating more things, planning more events, more holding and touching and bringing up sex. I think it is awesome to have these men in my life that are interested in getting to know me for ME and not just for my body. There are no clear instructions to follow other than to pull back and spend more of my time and attention to those who pursue me even if the ones I am more interested in knowing are not reciprocating my feelings for them.

    Back when I first started dating, I used to read Rori Raye’s website, havetherelationshipyouwant.com before I started reading Evan’s blog. This post today is very much what I read from Rori and her circular dating techniques. Although I don’t agree with everything that I read on her site, much of her technique makes good sense for the woman to lean back and let the man lean forward. It’s just the natural order of things. Yes, society is changing and woman are becoming more independent and men are not required to do as much as they used to. But like Dr. Phil used to often say, “How’s that working for you?” and he would often say that we train people to treat us the way that they do. We have to learn what it is that we want and set our boundaries as our own guidelines and if we have a need in our lives that needs to be filled, to be patient until we find the right way to fill that need.

    Why would a man buy the farm if he’s getting the milk for free? 😉

    1. 10.1

      It’s actually “why would a man buy a COW when he gets the milk for free”

      There’s no point to buying a farm if it has no COWS because there’d be no milk not to mention buying a whole farm would cost quite a bit more than 1 cow he doesn’t even have to buy. Just feed and take out to the movies occasionally and the milk comes a flowin….lol

      1. 10.1.1



    2. 10.2

      Why is the entire farm worth buying?   What long term return on investment is he getting?   Why can two adults not have sex just for its own sake, rather than as a tool to get something else?

      1. 10.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        One doesn’t need to get married to have sex. So much for your theory.

    3. 10.3

      You don’t really know what you want, now do you?

  10. 11

    Good points Susanna.   I’m not sure about circular dating because the premise is dating multiple men simultaneously – where I live, I’m lucky to find one decent guy to date at a time.   But I think that leaning back and observing and responding, allowing the man to show his level of interest and personality traits , is best.   You can learn a lot about him this way.   It’s generally pretty simple.   Guy not following up in a timely manner after a date ?    Not interested.   Guy texting and calling too often and evidencing desperation after one date ? He is clingy and weird   .   I am talking about relationships now, because I do not have sex with a man I want a relationship with unless I have a commitment.

  11. 12

    I actually think most women physically desire sex as much if not more than men.   It is just that socially or as part of their upbringing something mentally has taught them that it is dirty and that they should not want it.   The difference being that for women sex is a lot in their head, whereas for men, it is mostly in their body.       For years women have been taught not to express their sexuality, but now its a lot more acceptable to do so and they are.       I have many guy friends on online dating and tinder who are amazed at how blunt women are with regard to what they get asked to do etc.       I’m not at all. I think it is a move in the right direction. I also think if a woman just wants sex then go for just sex!    The reason I am single is because I do not play mind games with men. I have found that you have to. I have a very high sex drive and I would love to have sex everyday.      I do not have sex outside of relationships frequently, but when I am in one it is on.   I have only ever had one male partner that could keep up with me.         All the men are very intimidated if I initiate.          I had to play the game or pretending they were the one who initiated if I ever wanted to have sex.   See many men say being with a woman like this would be awesome, but few actually want it.   The explanation is simple.   It is not about nature, or men being the pursues or any of that stuff.   It is about INSECURITY.      Men think that women who enjoy sex as much as me, will judge them more in the bedroom, and be more likely to leave if they cannot satisfy the woman.    Whereas, a woman who does not care about sex, or who wants it once a month or does it just to appease the man allegedly is less likely to cheat.   Bottom line.          That is not true at all, in 37 years I have not cheated on anyone, but I have been sexually frustrated in almost every relationship I have been in.

    1. 12.1

      Dear Lisa, I hear ya! Men seem to complain that women do not want ot wnough, bit when they get a woman, confident enough to adit jer sexual desires, they cannot handle it.

    2. 12.2

      Ah, if only you existed in real life!

  12. 13

    This makes so much sense! I seem to have a way higher, much stronger, sex drive than every single man I’ve dated and it’s always caused relationship friction, especially when I’ve initiated sex and the  man hasn’t been in the mood – these men emotionally react so different from women when we turn down sex… men seem to  respond with some form of anger (hostility?) and I realized it’s because men feel emasculated to be put in a position to turn down sex. So interesting! Anyway, I quickly learned to stop initiating  sex and instead, to find other ways to subtly convey that I’m in the mood, which almost always results in sex. Sometimes I send a flirty text, other times it’s a photo of something I’m doing(the focus of the photo) that also just happens to show off my legs, or neck, to my advantage. Folding laundry, drop a couple of socks, spend some time on the ground picking them up with your butt in the air. Voila, he’s interested in sex and he’s also the one initiating it. It’s win/win. As for the rest of this article, I tend to agree with most of it as well. By no means am I any kind of push over; I’m 38, highly educated, with a great career and I’m reasonably attractive. However, I do not even peruse my own boyfriend. Ever. It’s not games, I’m actually really busy and secure in his love for me, but the main reason I am secure is because he is always the one initiating and all I need to do is sit back and say Yes (if I feel like it 😉 so I always know where I stand because I’m in control (of myself).

    Honestly, how does that go? “I’ll never chase a man, but if he has tattoos and a beard a bitch just might power walk” hahaha! But so true.

    This is turning into a THANK YOU Evan!! I have an amazing relationship and we are celebrating our one year anniversary next week and I think it’s all because I bought your book (in the spring of last year before meeting my boyfriend) and read it and understood it and applied it and I am SO MUCH HAPPIER and in LOVE because of it. I recommend your book to all my single friends and to friends who are struggling in their relationships. It enabled me to understand the difference between an okay man, a good man, and a great man. And I have the BEST man in the entire world now.  

    1. 13.1

      Your analysis of how men react to turning down sex is very interesting. What women have to remember is that men literally have to ‘get it up’ and perform. Something that gets harder as we get older. And if we can’t that can bruise ones confidence.


      You probably did the best thing possible by giving him time to think about it and get in the mood mentally  and physically.

      1. 13.1.1

        Yeah Morris is right. I’m in my 50’s and I’m not exactly a “walking hard on” that needs or wants sex 5 times a week. My girlfriend of 5 months last week initiated for the first time very sweetly. She texted and said “If you don’t have to get up too early I’ll come over for some quality time if you like and I won’t over stay my welcome. 🙂 If not and you’re too tired I totally understand”

        So I said sure that sounds great and it was. She has an older daughter at home so I always get home bed advantage! 🙂


        1. Sarah

          If that’s getting harder with age (no pun intended), you need to change your diet and stop eating meat. Go watch “Forks Over Knives” and you will see the light.

        2. Kevin

          A declining sex drive is a blessing for a man , I pity young guys ,   remember hating my then strong sex drive as a serving soldier , not good on operations for months on end. Women can very happily abstain permanently , no pesky prostate to empty , combined with lower drive.

    2. 13.2

      Great advice Allison! I had two good recent 4+ month relationships end. Both were really tough to get over. These were both amazing guys in a lot of ways but I  think my high sex drive and the fact that I was constantly initiating had a lot to do with these relationships not working. When I would get turned down for sex I get very disappointed. It makes me feel unwanted and anxious and it makes me pursue sex and the relationship even more. Both guys felt too much pressure from me and eventually they ended the relationships.

      I just turned 4o and my sex drive is out of control, especially when I’m in a relationship with a guy I really like and see a future with. At this stage of my life I really have no interest in casual sex. In my next relationship I will definitely try your techniques in getting them to “initiate” sex. I have a promising 2nd date tonight so maybe soon I’ll be able to test it out!

  13. 14
    Dina Strange

    Thousands of years of patriarchal society brainwashing damaged both men and women. In ancient Egypt, where goddess of Isis was praised as creator of everything, it was common for women to pursue men, and to have equal rights with men in legal and financial matters. Suppression of Black Madonna which is Great Mother archetype resulted in suppression and taboo of topics which are associated with her, one of which is sex.

    How sad, now because of misguided fear that priests had of female sexuality and thus its power over men, both genders are still paying the price.

  14. 15

    I have been reading this site for a short while, and believe that many women sabotage or poison their relationships because they want to be in control.   For those who complain they have to do all the planning, have they ever considered that they ignore the wishes of others.   If I want to occasionally see a tractor pull and instead, always get dragged to the opera or ballet, or have to sit through a chick flick when I would rather see an action movie based on a video game, where there is no  soap opera….   I realize that I do have to do these things, but honestly,   seeing Jane Eyre or Gone with the Wind 50 times…   The ending is always the same.   There is no surprise, and it is not entertaining.    As for the sex topic.   If you go out and see a woman who obviously spent a whole day “peacocking” to get your attention.   You know that 99% she will be having sex soon.   She also knows that;, even before she leaves the house;;   whereas a guy has no clue if he will be having sex.   There is a site called ROOSH, I believe where the guy sells books and advises guys, on how to get laid.   It does work, but probably not on you, if you are reading this site.   One hard and fast rule of his approach is that if the woman is a feminist,,,RUNNNNNN.  I agree with this approach if all you want is sex.   There are many, many women who go out to clubs and wind up waking up in someone’s bed next day, who do this 52 times a year.   They can not  stop doing this.   Some men target them, and have the skills to do this well.   There are also women who go out to meet rich guys, and a few minutes after the first encounter, their phones ring, because their friends are cock blocking, to save the girl and give them a quick exit if needed.   Everyone seems to be playing a game and have their own rules.   If you mesh and your game book matches the other person’s game book, you are in heaven.   If not ,   you agree to disagree.     If you look at the statistics for countries where there is universal child care, like Sweden and Denmark, marriage is declining rapidly.   I believe it is an archaic institution, that will soon be gone, all over the world.   You women have done it to yourselves.    I have seen so many cases where first there is love and sex, and then the woman pushes the manipulation buttons of silent treatment,    guilt, denial of sex, etc.  (you are all masters of this, but men know and expect it, just do not abuse it.)   Alpha males (bad boys) are the first target of most women, and when they settle down, they go for the beta, so we all know the game everyone is playing.   The whole issue comes down to communication.   We do not communicate, and certainly do not tolerate anything we do not agree with, hence the woman’s need to improve the person they are in a relationship with.   But if the woman pushes too hard, the results are the opposite of what they want.   Anyway I ramble, but wait for your comments.

    1. 15.1
      irene petty

      I think you are misinterpreting control for opportunity.    Some women can’t have sex everyday.   So when the time is right, to make it special and satisfying for both, then she will go for it.   Plus the women that you claim are doing it 52 times a year, do they ever get a period?   Or are they having period sex twelve times a year with strange men?   Ewe.

      To say that men don’t know if they are going to have sex,   do they want to know EVERY time? What if she is on her period?   Should she just stay home and not tell him? So he has no idea why she turned down time together?   Is he wasting time if they don’t have sex?   What if she is irregular?    Some birth control causes irregularities,   like IUD.

      If he wants to go to a tractor pull, does he invite her? I like opera and tractor pull events.   I would even go without opera the rest of my life and only go to tractor pulls, if that made him happy.   I am a feminist,   and i still care about men’s rights.    Don’t listen to that Roosh guy, he preys on the insecurity of men to promote unhappiness for them.   There’s nothing wrong with dating a few men .   There is something wrong when dates are interpreted as sex opportunities,   and when people assume sex is happening whenever a man is alone with a woman.

  15. 16

    I do like it when men take the lead sometimes and I like to take the lead others.   I like a partnership with no predefined gender roles.   You just work together to get shit done and everyone plays to their strengths. Apparently, that is all wrong, as I shouldn’t be better at things that are considered men’s jobs.

    As for it being demeaning for the woman to be passive, I don’t know about that.   All I do know is that as long as I pretended to need rescuing and did not allow my actual level of intelligence and competence as a human being to show…I had to beat guys off with a stick.   Once I started being genuine and let my actual level of intelligence and competence show, their egos started getting bruised because in their mind, I didn’t “need” them anymore.

    What they never really understood, was I never did need them.   I was with them because I chose to be and wanted to be with them. Too bad that was/is never enough for a man.

    1. 16.1

      Whenever I read these posts by women that bring up “intelligence” 587 times, I just assume narcissist. I would get the hell away from you too if you’re always trying to prove your “intelligence”. We compete with other guys, we don’t need to compete with you. I love down to earth women because they show me their “intelligence” through their actions without narcissism. Those guys got out just in time.

  16. 17

    What they never really understood, was I never did need them.   I was with them because I chose to be and wanted to be with them. Too bad that was/is never enough for a man.


    The relationship between men and women is supposed to be symbiotic.   In other words, both should need each other.   It may sound noble to say that you don’t need a man, or when men say they don’t need a woman, but it’s not noble, it’s a sad statement of the relationship between men and women as a whole.   Furthermore, it isn’t even true.   Oh sure, you may be able to change you own oil, but we still need men.   Spiritually, and emotionally, we are much healthier when we have a good man in our lives.   Research now says that we are mentally healthier if we get at least 8 hugs a day.   I prefer mine from a good hearted man.   And only a man can make me feel safe and comforted by cuddling me.   So I think it might be more accurate to say that there are some things we can do for ourselves that previous generations did not, but we still need a good man.


    I love that my man needs me to need him, and he freely admits that he needs me.   There is nothing wrong with that.   I hope this fad of people proudly saying they don’t need the opposite sex comes to the flaming end that it should,   and soon.

    1. 17.1

      Of course, I prefer to be in a relationship.   But do I need to be in a relationship to survive or in a relationship with a particular person to survive?   Of course not and neither should anyone else – it’s not healthy to be that dependent on another human being.

      But, I chose to be with him, not because I needed to be with him to survive, but because I wanted to share life and love with him.   HUUUGGE difference!

    2. 17.2

      I’ve only ever seen/heard women stating they didn’t need men. I’ve actually never seen the opposite. Most men are extremely thirsty and desperate, which turns most women off.

      If most men weren’t the pathetic schmucks that they are, I do wonder if that would help things. A spineless simp of a man doesn’t really do anyone any good.

  17. 18

    Wow, why is flirting, planning and initiating considered “work”? Is that not part of the FUN? I like picking the guy, it makes me feel confident and less passive. Everyone is different, some of us like to be forward and drive the boat, some of us like being driven. I like to pace the date, including sex, because I find a lot of men want to get straight to the “do”, and I like to build up and take things slowly, when I am ready! I love to make the first move. I find men to see this as different and erotic, and they enjoy being played. I feel more like a participant and find it more expressive and sensual as well. But in the long run, M.E.K. is right, if they don’t have their patriarchal groove on, they see how we women have felt for ages…that it’s fun to be the driver, and having to wait and be the passive one can be a little boring and dismissive. At least when it all comes crashing down and blows up, I know they will remember me, and probably not duplicate my enthusiasm easily! ;-0

  18. 19

    I read that George Clooney used to sell women’s shoes and he made the observation that all women lie about their shoe size.   I think women say the same thing about their marriages and relationships.   I’ve heard it countless times from friends that “He courted me”, “I didn’t like him at first”, “He grew on me”,… I watched some of the relationships unfold and none of my friends were passive.     They all wanted to feel like they got a relationship without asking.   Courting by a woman is like buying a fake diploma from the University of the Aquatic Arts.    What’s the point?   I have a close friend whose husband courted her.   Her future husband played in a softball league and she watched nearly all of his games from the sidelines for two years and always had cold Gatorade for him.   I’m sure he played an active role but she swears he did the courting.     She may not have initiated dates be she was never passive.

    1. 19.1

      Who says the woman must be passive for the man to properly court her?   No man is going to stick around for a passive woman, if passive means she never does anything nice for him, and all she does is sit like some self entitled queen, sucking up all that he gives to her.   Anyone who thinks that all you are supposed to do is sit there and receive while he does all the giving, I say this.   Enjoy your 50 cats.

      1. 19.1.1

        That’s not what “passive” means. For all intensive purposes on this blog it means non-Alpha.

  19. 20

    “Which means that, for women, aggressively pursuing the thing they want actually leads to them not getting it….”

    Exactly. If this is true, then women are “screwed” (yes, pun intended) when it comes to sexual autonomy.

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