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This is a curiosity more than a dating advice question. I’ve read several of your posts that suggest that charismatic alpha males do not make good partners. I also read on HuffingtonPost.com a hilariously titled article (in response to the Anthony Weiner scandal), “Should Women Go Ugly?” Again, suggesting that women should steer clear of handsome alpha men who are quite likely to ultimately let them down. So my question is, what happens to all these true alpha men? Do they marry? Will they remain single forever? If the conventional wisdom is for women to avoid relationships with them, is it in their (the alpha guys) best interest to skip the so-called American dream, avoid marriage and children and just bounce from one short-term relationship to another? Or is it possible for such a confident alpha male to create a meaningful long-term relationship? And if so, what type of woman would be able to create a happy life with a dominant man like this? Based on your advice and that of others I’ve read, it seems that no woman should attempt to deal with these men.
— Sara
Right before I got married, I turned for relationship advice to Dr. Pat Allen, therapist, Los Angeles legend, and author of “Getting to I Do”.
Back then Pat was probably 75 years old and delightfully curmudgeonly. She lived in a very black and white world and had a bunch of catchy aphorisms that she trotted out when she sees common dating dynamics — especially for women with an excess of masculine energy. I turned to her because we’d met on a panel once before and because. I respected her confidence, experience, and wisdom.
I told her that I wasn’t sure that I felt what I was supposed to feel for the woman to whom I was considering proposing. I didn’t have that obsessive, breathless, “I must have you” sentiment. I didn’t miss her madly when she went on a business trip. I was just plain happy — in a healthy, fun, nurturing, supportive relationship that had no obvious flaws apart from what was buzzing through my head: “I don’t have the FEELING I think I should have!”
My thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets.
Pat asked me: “Are you a career man or a man with a career?” (This is one of those aphorisms.) I told her that my career was not just a job, but kind of a calling. Thus, she determined that I was a career man. She told me that, as a career man, since my job would come first, I could get married and be perfectly content, but I’d always be longing for more. She finally concluded that, based on my profile and personality, I would probably cheat on my wife a few times.
And that was our session.
Is Dating an Alpha Male a Hopeless Case?
Yes, Dr. Allen’s contention, essentially, was that if you’re an alpha male, your natural tendency is to put your needs first, to conquer, to dominate, to spread your seed, and to hope to not break too many hearts along the way. In this regard, she’s somewhat correct.
And in this regard, I realized, I am not a pure alpha male.
It’s more important to me to be a good partner and father than it is to pursue my selfish interests at all costs. If anything, I have a fierce ethical streak (which surfaces here from time to time) which is stronger than my need for money or new women. I would not suppose that every person is similarly driven by doing the right thing. After all, having character involves tradeoffs, and alpha males most certainly don’t want limits put on their freedoms and power.
So, to bring this back to you, Sara, my thoughts on alpha men is that while they may remain the most attractive and successful candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets. I would guess that most women who’ve gone for them would concur with this observation. Alphas’ needs come first. Their schedules come first. They may try to spend money on you but it doesn’t compensate for their lack of attention, affection, and understanding. They rarely make you feel safe and secure. But you hold on because a true alpha is such an intoxicating catch. Make no mistake, he RELIES on his charms to allow you to put up with all his bullshit.
As always, when we’re talking about dating an alpha, we’re talking about a sliding scale. I may have the drive and temperament and ego of an alpha, but I don’t indulge it at all costs. I stop work at 6. I don’t work on weekends or take clients on Fridays. I apologize frequently. If my wife ever needs me to sacrifice for the family, the answer is yes. That’s where my value system lies.
What to Look for When you Date an Alpha Male
If you’re going to go for such a guy, the thing to look out for is what his long-term values are. Does he WANT to be a good husband and father? Does he SACRIFICE his needs for yours? Does he put YOU first or does he always have to control and win? There ARE alpha males who do that, but there are more who do not.
From what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk — but very few actually get the long-term reward.
So it’s not that it’s impossible to find one of these guys who wants to settle down with you — it’s that alpha males are inherently high risk/high reward.
And, from what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk — but very few actually get the long-term reward.
What Kind of Woman Gets to Date an Alpha Man?
As for what type of woman you have to be to get this guy, in general, I’d say someone who is supportive of him. Someone who is cool with his hours. Someone who doesn’t nag him all the time about his job. Someone who can love and listen to him and provide a fun change of pace when he finally clears space to be 100% present. This is really what my book Why He Disappeared is all about — being in your feminine self — open, positive, receptive, nurturing.
Still, being the ideal woman for an alpha male isn’t always enough — not if the alpha male doesn’t have a strong moral code and doesn’t fundamentally value monogamy as much as he values conquering new women and new businesses.
SOMEONE gets the alpha male to marry her, all right, but I can assure you that she is not always happy with what she gets.
Caveat emptor.
Hadley Paige says
Marrying an alpha male is essentially a monetary play for a woman. For at least a while they get big time care, shelter and lifestyle for themselves and their children. If it works out- fine. If it doesn’t work out they are “out of there” which means they get big $$$ which allow them to conduct the rest of their life as they like. No down side except perhaps some short term stress (join the club). A woman may not want to do it more than once though.
Bottom Line> Alpha males are still a major catch even if they are ultimately unsatisfying relationshipwise.
LovenHate says
I have to disagree. I’m a divorced, single mom of two and currently in a relationship with an Alpha Male. Oh yes, he has a decent job that pays HIS bills and pays for his hobbies which are numerous. It pays for him to go to concerts and on other outings with his buddies, but I see absolutely NO monetary benefit. I struggle every day with being able to afford things in life, but I never ask him for help (I did once, and it was disastrous). He has borrowed money from me a few times, and I had to nag him about paying it back. Don’t get me wrong, he can be charismatic and charming…even thoughtful at rare instances. Overall though…NOT a major catch because he gets a lot (sex, a place to live, food, companionship when HE wants it), yet doesn’t give much in return. And after writing this, I’m convinced now more than ever to end this nonsense and stop being used for doormat, and a sexmat.
starthrower68 says
Yah I’d have to agree he’s dead weight. I’m not saying this as a comment on you as a parent, but we don’t generally have a lot extra after the bills are paid. Budgets run right. What have you had to put on hold for your kids because you gave this guy money? Again not calling you a bad parent. I just know that my budget has to be tight. Unlike certain comments above, I make sure that *I* can provide for myself and my children. I don’t ever want to depend on anyone else for that.
Tim says
Why are you blaming HIM for YOUR shortcomings?
Joek says
Doens’t sound like an Alpha to me, if he has to borrow money from you.
Just sounds like a good-looking, charming player.
mireille says
Absolutely. The alpha male doesn’t need a woman’s money for his fun. Much less a mother’s money. He’s a narcissistic hollywood type. Many people have no idea what an alpha male is. They think any narcissistic asskisser with sunglasses and a status birth privilege or a histrion is an alpha male. On the contrary, alpha male is a rational person who can deal any type of situation from a small crise to war, or any bad situation.
N says
Exactly. No Alpha borrows money from a woman. An alpha would be proud to show his woman.
Ann says
I totally agree with you partly.Am just reeling from a nasty stint with one whos taken my money and used it to fund trips for himself and probably some other woman. But aI once dated anozher alpha who was chivalrous and took care of my needs;so its a 50/50 game of chance
mireille says
Seems to me that you are the alpha male of the relationship (no offence)
mireille says
That is not an alpha male. That’s probably an undercover narcissistic homosexual
BiologicalOne says
That is not an alpha male. You are most likely dealing a heavy narcissist. An alpha male has a unquenchable desire to provide and make sure people in his pack are cared for. It is like a bug constantly biting him until he does what he needs to do.
AuroraTheGreat says
I tend to treat alpha males like crap. When they first f with me they say stupid crap like, “wow you’re really no confrontational” or “you’re such a feminine woman “which to them translates as submissisivre. It just sit back and wait for the wrecking bomb to knock these weak azz alphas down lol. These silly men assume bazaar things. Me? Submissisivre? Nonconlfrontational lol? It just boggles their mind while I carry myself with not caring too much. They wonder why I’m not joining the rest who swoon over him. It’s quite hilarious to watch how this messes with their egos. Alpha male = toxic masculinity.
Buck25 says
ATG,
You have obviously never met a real alpha male.. What you’ve been toying with are “social alphas” (including bad boys and assorted players); usually good looking, superficially charming, and as Paragon said earlier, usually conspicuous failures at everything except picking up women. Most of the time, they can’t keep the women they attract, and their confidence level derives from nothing more than easy success, and a lack of adversity. Their egos aren’t usually all that strong.
What do you do, ATG? Act indifferent, make some snarky or even rude comment (s)? Or do you act impressed, and oh so nice…until you go for the verbal smackdown? A REAL alpha male, will not even react to any of that; in fact, he will simply blow you off with a smile, and move on. You haven’t even put a faint scratch on his ego, because he simply does not care whether you like him, or not. He does not care whether he picks up, dates, or even has sex with, you or any other individual woman. He has options….lots of them. At the point of approach, all you are , to a true alpha male, is just one more woman among many who might have the potential to interest him. That’s all. You are not rare. You are not special. You are not a scarce commodity. Therefore, his emotional/ego investment in you, (yes, even if you are a perfect 10), until and unless he gets to know you and decides he likes you, is ZERO.
Don’t flatter yourself, dear. What you’re doing is no great accomplishment. All you’re doing is putting a few bruises on the overgrown egos of some alpha wannabes who haven’t grown into real men yet.
ra says
you’re complaining about him being a shitty catch, yet you’re in a relationship with him. meanwhile there’s a guy out there who would’ve been happy to be your life partner except he’s not alpha enough for you. good job
D says
Lol what you have is a loud, me-first, mommy’s boy that hasnt grown up, likely has a large tool to keep you hanging around, and you have mistaken that for being alpha male. A true alpha male, even if not able to connect emotionally as well as a sensitive man, still is able to PROVIDE financially, and as Evan says, MIGHT be a bad bet long term.
You dump your er, “man”, or more appropriately, man-child, and move on. This is a leech you have.
Alpha males are certainly not all saints nor God’s gift to womenkind, but no need to taint the name of the alpha male just because you were unable to distinguish real competence and masculinity with the fake look-i-have-a-large-penis-wow-im-so-fabulous-i-can-give-you-orgasms-in-bed type of man who uses his er, charms, to keep you around. Emotional sensitivity, having values, putting you first, being good in bed, providing for you financially, are all values that MAY be related to each other but definitely not interchangeable, and you my friend are terribly confounded.
I was too till I found a good man. You need to wake up, improve yourself, and move on. I found that when I or any of my friends picked bad-quality men, it was because I was not yet of the “top quality” that I should be striving towards either. Your choices in man and friends are reflections of yourself.
Tara says
Yes, I am in a similar situation with a very selfish man. However, his first wife still has everything, trips, cars, generous alimony every month. She suffered for almost 20 years with this alpha male but she got a monetary reward at the end. Second relationships are different with these men.
Nexus says
Of course there is they just won’t capitulate to inequity, if you want a man you can walk all over don’t date Alpha find someone that kisses your toes and worships the ground you walk, then after two or three years start hitting on me while your engaged or married to one of them because you are not satisfied with the guy you have no respect for.
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, because there are only two types of men in the world: arrogant alphas, and men who you can walk all over. Thanks for the reminder that just because you’re an alpha doesn’t mean you’re a very good critical thinker.
N says
I disagree. I think there are alphas who will do anything for their woman when they find the woman they respect and adore and feel they cant live without. Then there are those men you walk all over, but can change. Speaking from experience, I grew up with a very dominant control freak mother and so did my husband. My father disappeared for a while so my masculinity came out. I didn’t want it to, but it had to. The whole time I hated it, but we needed to survive without men. So when I was older I was a more alpha type woman who really preferred to be submissive and feminine to the right guy. Anyway, so I pursued my husband and all. There was really no other way to get the guy I wanted than to go after him. Sitting and waiting annoyed me. I wanted the best. My husband was this sweet gentleman, but he didn’t take the lead. That was the frustrating part. I wanted him to come after me. His mother was so difficult he was submissive to women. Well, motherhood changed that. As soon as I had kids with him the roles changed. It was hard to enter these roles at first. My husband’s insecurities annoyed the crap out of me, but I’m slowly teaching him to be independent and for him to have the freedom to go after what he wants, without his mum’s permission. I encourage him to make choices, I praise him and I ask to be submissive in the bedroom until he started getting used to it. We are about halfway there, but we are getting there. I am now more feminine and he is more masculine but still submissive. The thing is, me being more feminine is forcing him to do the opposite. We cant both be feminine. And by me encouraging him to up his game, he’s starting to like it. This way I get to have my strong yet sensitive leader who cares for me.
Cst says
mireille says
Maybe the one who takes the food from your children for his party amd fun is better. I certainly will respect more. I will encourage him to go on. What is an alpha male? A fantasy. Invention. Few REAL men are in the world today. A real man was able to go to war, work with his bare hands, feed his family, hunt, etc. With the raise technology they only crave party and fun more than hookers (which they hate by the way). The alpha male today is only a repressed gay misogyn.
Crystal says
I agree with you, Mireille. My father was, hands down, and alpha male. He was a leader, dominant, head of the house. He died last year at 91, after 67 years of faithful marriage to my mother.
The same man I described above was patient, caring, compassionate and always put his family first. I would never describe him as arrogant because, although he never admitted when he was wrong, he would admit to changing his mind about previously long-held beliefs (like he eventually conceded that same sex marriage was none of his business).
There was nothing in the world he wouldn’t do if my mother asked him to and vice versa. And he was a very attractive man. He could have had his pick of women. My mother was pretty too. Still is. She could have had her pick of men.
They defied typical definitions of who alpha men are and what kind of women they marry. My mother is a strong women. When it came down to it, in their marriage she almost always got her way. She just didn’t use bossiness to get it. And my father never bossed her. They were a team.
Anyway, with my father as a role model, I’m still holding out for an alpha man like him. A strong, compassionate and, yes, handsome man who puts my needs first. Thanks to your advice, Evan, I think I am in a better state of mind to be the kind of woman that can accept that kind of man into my life.
Crystal says
I forgot to say in my original comment: M my father was a church pastor and small business owner. As such, many woman who valued male leadership were attracted to him.
However, neither my mother nor I or my siblings ever saw him flirt with another woman. He would have considered it extremely disrespectful to my mother to do so. So would I.
I’m used to achieving my goals, no matter how long it takes to do it. So, I’m holding out for an alpha male like my dad–a chivalrous, handsome gentleman who led most by being a respectful human being of high integrity.
The outpouring of love and affection from those who attended my father’s funeral–a good many people considering that most of his contemporaries died before he did–is proof of the admirable way that he treated people, including my mother, and the way he conducted himself throughout his life.
EFernandes says
Hello Mireille
Can you pls clarify what it is your statement about…alphas being a repressed gay misogyny?
my honest answer says
I agree with Evan – their very nature does make them more likely to cheat. But it also makes them kind of attractive, because you think you’re the ONE to change them.
That only ends in tears.
If you’re happy to come second to someone’s job (and some people are), then go for it. If you know you need a lot of attention and affection from a relationship, I’d skip the obvious workaholics.
Steve says
I’m not an expert and I don’t play one on TV, but the descriptions of “The Alpha Male” are starting to sound like a bad case the narcissism neurosis epidemic psychologists say is going around in the current generation of adults.
alphafemale says
Yep, and there are degrees . I suspect, not just two kinds of men in the world. I read only Alpha and Beta as Dr. Pat Allen would say. Not my experience. I’ve met some men that fall in the middle…I have no clue why women, certainly not me, would just be into him b/c he has a high paying job and is self centered and charismatic…. beats me… I’m an Alpha female that can follow, but I don’t follow a man that has no morals, ethics, compassion, or rational thinking…nor am I a doormat. Sure I really like intelligent men, but that only does it for me for the length of the conversation, after that if he is an ass, I’m out. Alpha’s apparently get by with their behavior b/c women out there are so caught up in the wrong attributes in a man. Apparently not very smart emotionally. Alpha’s just haven’t grown up emotionally…. they haven’t had to… The higher the IQ the less social skills, and the more self absorption.
AQ says
Evan, I think you need to define Alpha Male – there are many types – many shades of gray. I think you must mean one that is a CEO – he is at the top because he was narcissistic and screwed a lot of people to win along the way – he is good looking, athletic and overly confident. But there are many men who are successful who put their families first. Then there are ones who are less confident with no ambition.
mireille says
Athletic???If they were athletic they were Usain Bold or Serena Williams :))and no need yo screw other ppl. There is no such thing as alpha male. A homosexual(closeted or not)can be more successful today in the right circumstances. And also a woman with low testosterone. Being alpha is not about money and succes (my opinion)is about the way you lead your life.
Joe says
@ my honest answer #2: I have a problem with saying you shouldn’t come second to someone’s job, whether you’re a man or a woman. I think there needs to be a balance between the two–there are times where your relationship is more important than work, but there are times when work is more important than your relationship. If you lose your job, it’s only going to put more pressure on your relationship.
Steve says
I think there needs to be a balance between the two—there are times where your relationship is more important than work, but there are times when work is more important than your relationship. If you lose your job, it’s only going to put more pressure on your relationship.
This is an obvious dichotomy, however if the man loses his job and he is the main bread winner of course it puts a strain on the relationship, but this is where the couple get to find out what their relationship is truly made of: Is their relationship made up of good times and laughter when the sun is shining and fights and bickering when the storms have come home, or when the storm hits the couple batten down the hatches cling closer together for strength, support, and strengthening their bonds when the forces of nature are trying to destroy their characters, their hopes, and Adonai forbid their family.
It is easy to be strong when times are good, but your true strength is revealed when all is against you, and the measure of the man is can he keep it together and keep his loved ones together with him when a strong man has entered his house to bind him and take all which he truly cares about.
We will always find work, but always remember a piece of paper we work for does not and will not replace the members of your family you fret for.
There should also never be a balance, balance can be considered like compromise, here is how; a man and wife have been married for a few years, the man gets terrible news he has prostate cancer, so he goes for surgery gets the cancer cut out, and now his plumbing does not function in one area.
She is a woman, she works for her living but she does not get to do adult play, she works and no play, and as you said there needs to be balance. All work and no play, there is no balance so given her obvious conundrum, her life is not balanced; she works a lot with no play, the plumbing of her husband does not work, she is married, she is loyal, she is committed, she is in love, she has her children and family to consider, does she cast all her excellent qualities aside for BALANCE as you would say?
Your approach to a very complex situation was naive, superficial, and arrogant displayed in ignorance. This is my honest question to you.
Teri says
Evan,
I have had 2 “long-term” relationships with Alpha males. While I am obviously attracted to that type of man. I am trying to get out of that way of thinking and dating men that put me first. My problem is that the chemistry is just not there for me. I am dating a man now that is head over heals in love with me and I am going to talk to him tonight and tell him that I just can’t see him anymore. How do I get out of this way of thinking? I want to have a long term relationship with a good man.
Helen says
While I very much agree with the importance of considering family in a relationship, I disagree with equating “alpha male” to “career man.” I think that in women’s minds, they’re completely different things.
Historically (it’s somewhat less relevant today), a woman would consider a male alpha if he is able to provide the resources she needs for successful reproduction, and then further on Maslow’s hierarchy, her personal needs such as affection, attention, affirmation, etc. One does not need to be a career man in order to provide these things. Evan, you say that you’re not fully an alpha, but in your wife’s mind, you would be as long as you met her needs and she felt secure in your continually being able to provide them.
Career men include artists and musicians and writers who don’t make much (if any) money, but are completely obsessed with their pursuits. That doesn’t make them alphas, necessarily, in the minds of women, unless specific women got gratification out of being with someone who had a plethora of those particular talents.
Also Evan, it does not make you “not an alpha” that you quit work at 6 and don’t work on weekends. It means that you have a good sense of boundaries. Then there are those of us who feel as though we didn’t finish everything we wanted to during the weekdays, so it spills over into the weekends, and sends us into a spiral of guilt that we’re not devoting the right time to the right people… It makes us guilt-ridden fools, not alphas, I can tell you that much. 🙂
Ileana says
<Does he WANT to be a good husband and father?>.
Evan, i dont’t think that WANTING is of any importance here. Don’t you think that maybe there are guys out there who claim to want this, but actually do not put any effort in doing something about it?
And, how can you actually tell if he HAS good husband/father potential? You cant just ask him….
Alicia says
An alpha (in my opinion) is a man or woman who has virtually everything but is still not satisfied (this basically encompasses CEOs, some military officers, celebrities, and the like).
I was just broken up with on Thursday by an alpha who completely changed his personality when he started his career months ago. I saw the breakup coming but I couldn’t leave him (even though I’m almost sure he was cheating on me).
He told me that I’m always first in his life and he couldn’t wait for our wedding day and the birth of our children. This proves that people will say all kinds of things to secure themselves from loneliness. In that regard, I disagree with Evan. Just saying a person wants to be an amazing mate or model parent doesn’t always mean they are willing to help themselves achieve their goals.
Jennifer says
So I found a definition of alpha, because it bugs me how much we throw it around here and everyone seems to mean different things by it. According to dictionary.com, an Alpha Male is:
The dominant male animal or person in a group.
I think it’s easy to forget that this term is defined by it’s relativity to a larger group. No man is, or can be, dominant in every realm.
Dominance does not go hand in hand with things like compromise and a lot of other traits we think of when we think of a loving relationship. Neither does it automatically equal all of the negative traits that we tend to assign to it either.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks, Jennifer. How does that change or negate what I wrote though?
Steve says
Smart woman Jennifer, you searching for a definition of alpha male was the best starting point to formulate an extremely strong case. For your efforts I thank you. To the man who wrote this post you are describing two completely different kinds of males; selfish and Protectors. You have described to us the selfish male whom you think can be classified as an alpha male, are you stupid and do you truly know what an alpha male is. Anyone no matter who they are if they are considerate of their own needs first are not alpha, they are only selfish. A true leader is consderate of the weak and defenseless first making decisions for the group he leads (a.k.a the Head of the family – Maybe the father if he stuck around, or it maybe the mother if she stuck around, or if in both cases the two are still alive). Of course he gets to pick the best of the group, but in the world of mankind we cannot take all the best for ourselves and leave the scraps for the rest.
This contemplation of an alpha male is really sickening, apparently an alpha male is on par with God Himself. For those who want a simple analogy of an alpha male here it is: an alpha male is a Man, not a boy with hairs on his nuts, a Man. He protects those he cares about, and also those whom he works with, He provides for those he loves from his family he was born into (if he has not created his own yet) or the family he has made then the family he was born into right down to his baby sister or brother and the needs of the nieces and nephews he has from her or him. He is a leader, he cares for his own, ALL his own, because the lose of one is like the lose of his own limbs.
He is fierce, he is strong, and he stands against everything which would even attempt to bring any harm to his family, he is wise, and strategic, he can smell trouble coming a mile off, and steers his family away from the calamity before disaster strikes.
So it’s not that it’s impossible to find one of these guys who wants to settle down with you — it’s that alpha males are inherently high risk/high reward.
The superficial understanding of an alpha male people through out is stupid. An alpha male gets all the beautiful woman, what happens if the so called alpha male ends up settling for a plain looking woman, but has the character traits which do not succumb to his diabolical charms he is use to using for his own ends, even though she has the desire to sleep with him and give into her desires, but her convictions hold her fast?
An alpha male is only alpha IF he gets what he wants, and he will use all the tricks necessary from his playbook to get the result he wants, which is to tap the next good looking booty who comes passed his vision. To all the males reading this here is a hard and fast solution for you; if you want to be alpha do this; go to brothels and have plenty of sex with good looking women, and dress like a P.I.M.P through out a few slick lines and you are an alpha male, tell no one your dirty little tricks and keep up the charade, you will have a handful of wannabes licking the dust of the ground before you take a step onto the piece of ground.
An alpha male came near me, I would rip him to shreds I tell you the truth now.
Jennifer says
@Evan- I’m not trying to negate what you wrote. Just trying to put a frame around ‘Alpha Male’ since folks seem to throw all sorts of meanings to it that just aren’t there, and then draw conclusions that are less than valid. You know how comments tend to meander 😉
Sharon says
Everyone has a slightly different idea of what alpha male is. Growing up in area that produce steel I’ve always considered blue collared jobs “working with your hands” more masculine than white collar jobs. Thus I can understand when Evan is talking about that high earning pretty boy business tycoon alpha as someone as confident in what they do. And certainly they’re are proud peacock alphas, as anyone who’s a dated a musician knows, that don’t make a dime. So currently my list of careers at high risk for alpha behaviors are as followed:
Cops
Musicians (particular current music but if he’s a carnegie hall ready classist you still need to watch your back.)
Actors
Fireman
Military Personnel
Doctors
College Professors
Stock brokers
Hedge Fund Managers
(Ok anything financial save perhaps accounting)
Construction Workers
Surgeons
Models
Personal Trainers
Graphic Designers (for some reason video game designers are less douchey)
Executive anything non profit to advertising
Politicians
Business Owners
Athletes ..ALL
Elite anything, astrophysicists, economist, reporter ect.
Bartenders
Chefs
Writers
High End Real Estate
Lawyers
Diplomats
I’m sure there are more. Generally speaking middle management engineers, IT specialist, grade school teachers. Copy editors bank managers, retail managers. legal assistants. To be alpha you just have to be the top guy in your social circle. So women looking for a nice beta should aim straight to the middle of the pack for the guy most likely to stay there.
Sara says
I submitted the original question above. Thank you for answering it Evan. After a good deal of thought, one theory I have is that there will always be a percentage of women (small I hope, though perhaps more common in my mother’s generation), who have a clear-eyed understanding of the realities of being with a so-called alpha male. They understand what the trade-offs are and they fully accept them. If they suspect their husband is having an affair, they turn a blind eye. If they don’t always get the attention they want from their husband, they seek that out from women friends or perhaps a lover of their own. They often have an affluent life-style (nice house, cars, clothing, travel, botox, you name it!), and they have no intention of giving that up, so they view their alpha’s “indiscretions” as part of the package. (Kind of a “boys will be boys” attitude, which is antiquated yes, but my guess is that it still persists to a degree). Not a great recipe for a close intimate relationship, but it is a trade-off that the women themselves are choosing. The key word here is Choice.
G says
I am with an alpha male (surgeon) and there are definitely times when work comes first. But I have my own career and fully support him with things he needs. In return, when we do have quality time it’s amazing. Evan mentioned that these guys make a choice to be faithful or not. If you’re a catch (cooking, cleaning, taking care of yourself and his physical needs and have your own career) there is not much more that he could look for. Being beast going and having fun with your man will always make him want to come home to you and only you
Christine says
That was really well said.
Janie says
I think that’s a good answer. I was wondering about that too.
I know that I am not the type of woman who’s a good candidate for a serious relationship with an alpha male, because being with one, or trying to be with one, ignites a power struggle in me. That is an unhealthy relationship, and ultimately a lose-lose situation, “the battle of who could care less.” Especially if he’s actually insecure underneath the flashy exterior. It’s a recipe for disaster.
There are beta guys who are secure and humble at the same time. That’s the type I’m actually best off with.
Carrie says
I think Steve is going in the right direction here. Alpha Male is a good term to use but, narcissism is right on track. All walks of life with money or without..can act like an alpa male. Career or no career can act like an alpha male. I seem to equate Alpa with abusive for some reason. Narcissists are the snotty career people who think they are a gift to us from God. Why wouldn’t anyone want me, I mean, I want me!!! hahahha is their motto! I was married to one…I know the personality well. People regardless of status, with or without money, college education or no college education can be controlling, egotistical, narcissistic and alpha male prone. Just approach with your eyes wide open and read it like it is not what it could be…
XO Carrie
Peter says
If an Alpha male is an economically and socially successful leader of men (this definition includes overachieving women!) then I have no comment. If an Alpha male is a man who has sex with a lot of women (the two versions probably overlap a great deal) then consider this.
In 1996 the Centre for Disease Control surveyed US college students for risky behaviours. It was a large survey and because most of the questions were about things like motorbike riding it is considered that the answers about sex were relatively truthful. I will discuss the results for white students. There were results for under 25 and over 25.
The average (mean) number of lifetime sexual partners was 9. About half of students had no more than two partners. So most people were virgins or had one or two partners. These people were not considered at risk of health problems. The second biggest group were people with a lifetime total of 3,4 or 5 lifetime sex partners. They were at some risk of disease. They were about a quarter of the total.
The average of nine sexual partners was generated by the heros and heroines who crossed the dangerously promiscuous line of 6 or more lifetime sex parners which made some form of STD, often undectectable HPV more or less inevitable. This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).
What happens after 25? Very little. For the three quarters of the population that did not indulge in high risk numbers of partners the partner count remained almost unchanged. This implies that most college people find themselves a lifetime partner by 25 even if they do not marry immediately. The promiscuous quarter of “so called Alphas” and ***** continued to do the rounds of each other. Basically the Alpha male who is dangerously attractive to all women does not exist. He is dangerously attractive to promiscuous women.
This was an American survey so attention to the racial dimension was of course given. Hispanics were more sexually active than whites in the younger age group. Blacks were more sexually active than hispanics. Whether this says anything about race rather than social class of origin is not a subject for this blog.
People who do not attend college are thought to have less ex if they are qualified at something like trade school level and more sex if they are underclass but there are no really good figures to show this.
Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas. The sexually available are a group to themselves. The idea of the sexual Alpha appears to have resulted from enhanced marketing by self help coaches who use to teach men how to become more confident around women or as in the 1960’s (I just remember the ads on the back pages of imported US magazines) how to develop a phrase/”line” guaranteed to pick up women.
Other studies looking at life time figures suggest that the most promiscuous few percent of men get up to 250 partners. The top women get about 650 (access sex is much easier for women). These figures were supposed to exclude commercial prostitution. Divorce post 30 pushes the base line up. with respect to teh median number of partners as well as the mean.
Real Alphas, as in the sense of social leaders, may well be monogamous (Hitler and Stalin were not known to be sexually active. Mao and Lenin on the other hand … ). Most CEO’s are probably too damn busy.
However, the ratio of human testes weight to body weight suggests that men are designed to have 1.6 female partners. DNA studies suggest that 80% of women who have ever lived reproduced but only 40% of men. Divorce behaviour suggests that women leave and unsatisfactory man whereas men, unprovoked by legal obligations will add another woman to his relationship. Male infidelity often is not seen as threatening as female infidelity. So some men do better than others even if we are not talking about 250 lifetime partners. Or perhaps some men do worse? Women will simply not tolerate below average?
So where does this leave the 35 plus woman who seems to be Evan’s client? Well, which group do you think the never married men might belong to? A divorced man who met his ex wife before he was 25 might be a better target, even if he is paying child support if you really want a good relationship. Obviously he was under performing in some respect hence the divorce but what is the pont of a successful career if it isn’t to support your relationships.
Sorry Evan. I have rambled on rather a lot.
Cst says
Target? underperforming? Yeah babe!
Antonia says
So, I gather that an alpha female is not the right match for the alpha male?
alphafemale says
Dr. Pat Allen talks about it. Only if she can be feminine and follow his lead. If she is head strong and masculine, not a fit.
Margo says
The most recent alph male I had the misfortune of coming across was one of the most selfish men I had ever met. His fiance of 10 years left him because he took an unecessary overseas job assignment that took him away from her for over two years! Shortly after we started talking, he went on another overseas assignment. This one was 9 months. THEN he dropped the bomb on me that he was applying for another overseas job that would require him to be out of the states 70% of the time! What an asshole he was/is.
Soul Sister says
I think we need to be careful of defining all alpha males (and females) as narcissists as it is simply not true. While the propensity for an alpha person to be a narcissist may be higher, they are not necessarily tied together. The most alpha man I know, multi-millionaire, hugely successful both financially and in life, is very far from a narcissist. He does have a huge degree of confidence but he is always kind to everyone…his wife, his children, the waiter. Yes, he works a lot, but he also plays a lot with those he loves. A true alpha person is so centered and self confident, they do not need to project control, unkindness, or any other negative traits on others because they can just BE. The alpha dog in the pack will fight if he has to, but typically he just IS, so one look or his mere presence is enough to maintain dominance. He doesn’t walk around biting other dogs just for the fun of it. That would be the alpha wanna-be! I think where alphas get their bad name are people who want to be alpha, or think they are, but are really just insecure and dysfunctional. Therefore they display this dominance as sort of a cover, not a true hierarchy in the group. My experience with bad alphas was that they were more assholes pretending to be alphas. Inside they were just dysfunctional, childish, self centered human beings and I feel sorry for them.
I am an alpha female, people rely on me, I am in a high paced demanding career, and I can project dominance when I need to. But I am also a very kind person (after lots of therapy reduced the dysfunction and insecurity!) and my alpha-ness allows me to just be who I am.
So a narcissist will probably be an alpha (or pretend to be one) but an alpha may not be a narcissist. And an asshole is just an asshole, no matter what you call him/her!
And two alphas can have a relationship, but they must be highly functional people with the maturity to temper their excessive traits, both the good and the bad ones. I highly prefer the alpha man, but assholes and narcissists need not apply……
Lyn1947 says
Good comment. My late husband was an alpha male. It was the second marriage for both of us and he was the most devoted man I’ve ever known. He took all his drive that had over the years been put into his career and put it into me and our relationship. That’s the other side of alpha: the drive to succeed in marriage.
Anon says
Your late husband doesn’t sound like an Alpha Male, Soul Sister; he sounds like a good person.
Claire says
Nicely put, soul sister! I agree 100%, that too has been my experience.
Heather says
@Jennifer #10
Totally agreed. My ex boyfriend was chronically underemployed but he was very much an alpha male, he had to be in control of conversations, had to make sure I did what he said and follow his lead, and had to deal with his tantrums and problems. Heaven forbid I call him on his bullshit.
Anymore now, I won’t date most alpha male types. To me it equals domineering attitudes and viewpoints, loud, arrogant stances, and the like. Not to mention being put in last place in order to pursue other things, not just a career.
I’m retraining myself to take a good look at the guys who are not so alpha male, and what I am finding is that I am having a much better dating experience. I’m not being bossed around, yelled at, or put in last place. I’m usually treated like a lady and am being treated with respect.
So to all of you “not alpha males” out there, NO, you will NOT finish in last place!!! I’m just sayin.
Jennifer says
@Margo #18
Was this guy a selfish asshole because of his desire to work overseas, his failure to tell you about it in a timely fashion, or for other reasons?
The working overseas and having a ‘fiance’ for 10 years (I mean, really?) thing just sounds like a guy who is not good at/doesn’t want relationships, but that doesn’t automatically make him an asshole in my book.
Joe says
@ Sharon #13:
Unfortunately, you can’t paint everyone in those professions with such a broad brush. Think about it: if everyone in those professions was an alpha, nobody would get anything done.
Your army can’t be full of leaders; you need to have followers too.
Sharon says
@ Joe I didn’t say they all were. I said proceed with caution.
Margo says
@Jennifer-21, She wasn’t his fiance for 10 years. They were in a 10-year serious live-in relationship for 10 years. She had recently agreed to become his fiance. He said that’s what he wanted. Then against her wishes, he left her for 2 years while he went overseas. That doesn’t make him a jerk to you??
Ruby says
I’m beginning to feel that this “alpha” term is starting to lose all meaning. I used to think it meant a high-rolling executive/CEO-type pulling down mega-bucks (a tiny minority of the men out there, I might add), now we’re being told that it includes even ambitious starving artists?
I work in one of the professions that Sharon mentioned (#13), and the men I’ve known there are, on the whole, so far from being Alpha types that I had to laugh at its inclusion in her list. And construction workers? Really?
There are narcissists in any profession. Are “alpha males” just self-absorbed workaholics? While we might find confidence and drive attractive, what’s so desirable about the extreme version of that?
Buck25 says
Question is, what does the term “Alpha Male” really mean? What traits make a man “Alpha” or “not Alpha”? Is there even any real consensus on that? The meaning, the way the term is used here (and elsewhere) is so elastic, that I have to ask. Does the term mean different things to woman, than it does to men?
Sharon says
To me alpha is more about a macho attitude than bank account. That typical sexist might is right sort of swagger.
Ruby says
Sharon #26
Sounds like you are talking about “bad boys.”
I do think most of us are a mix of alpha and beta traits.
Sharon says
Not exactly. I’m thinking more of that John Wayne Clint Eastwood sort of alpha.
lawyerette says
For everyone asking if it matters if he “wants” to be a good father and husband – yes, absolutely! You are are confusing the “necessary” and the “sufficient”. Wanting to be a good husband and father is NECESSARY to a man actually being so. That’s different from it being SUFFICIENT to be so. Wanting isn’t enough. But if a guy doesn’t even WANT to be a good husband and dad, then there’s NO way he will be.
Katarina Phang says
Alpha to me is about degree of masculinity or manliness. Striving artists can be alpha if he matches all the things that show that he’s driven to achieve his goals and are not what beta guys are all about (being okay in a passenger seat while their women take the driver seat).
Trouble says
My ex-husband, in every capacity would probably be classified as a beta, and yet he was a chronic cheater. On the flip side, I’ve spent my entire career in a male-dominated field with “testosterone overload” (law enforcement), and some of the gentlest, kindest people I’ve ever known are cops (the guys from my unit visited me daily in the hospital maternity ward when I had medical issues during a pregnancy, for instance). I’m marrying a military guy. While he is definitely aggressive about work, he knows how to put the job aside and come home. I don’t think we can generalize so widely about people’s propensity for infidelity. I have noticed with the men that I’ve known who are cheaters (and I’ve known a few, both personally and prfessionally) that these are mostly men who are deeply insecure and need some sort of approbation to pump them up. If you look at someone like Gene Simmons, a chronic philanderer who slept with hundreds or thousands of women, he had major abandonment issues with his father. I think cheating is more complex than the “i am alpha, give me pussy” paradigm.
The average alpha male doesn’t appear to have the deep seated insecurity issues that many chronic cheaters seem to have.
Emily says
I read an article recently that women are all over Alpha males as of late. That is has to do a lot with TV, and the whole macho guy image. But i like the angle of this. Because at the end of the day, it really is “to each HER own.”
Heather says
@ Trouble #31,
Not always. Again, my ex boyfriend was very much an alpha male and he had TONS of very deep-seated insecurity issues, constant need to be right, maintaining very close contact with an ex-girlfriend when I made it clear how uncomfortable I was with this, most likely was cheating on me, etc.
It really depends. I am sure there are some beta males who can be real jerks and I have certainly met a few. But my overwhelming experience has been that the alpha males I have been involved with, have been extremely insecure and even abusive, and I’d just rather avoid the issue entirely.
adk says
To Teri #6:
What you are “attracted” to has little to do with how good a partner they will be. It often has to do with who your parents were and how screwed up you might be. I was always “attracted” to very silent, mysterious and, in the end, unavailable guys. Guess what? My father has never given me his approval.
Once I realized that they type of guy I was always initially attracted to was never going to be there for me or give me what I wanted, I tried to retrain my attraction and be open to people who would give me what I wanted in the end.
And it worked! Married at the ripe old age of 41 to a wonderful guy.
Steve says
you give good advice. i think it’s more on really being lucky on who you get married to. also, an alpha male for you can be not an alpha male to another. depends on what you like
ashley says
i personally dont like alpha male . I have a strong personality and everytime i dated a so called ” alpha male ” , we clashed! sex was great , but anything outta bedroom was a disaster! I hated their gut and they hated me even more! to me, they are self -oriented individuals ; that doesnt mean they are bad people, but as Evan said , they certainly dont put YOUR needs first. your education, your job, your nice house , or fancy car,,,, they could care less about it. the ONLY thing they care about is how pretty you are and if you gonna make them and their life your priority. IMO, the only women who can make it happen with alpha male are the ones who dont have any alpha trait in their chromosome.
Dina Strange says
Ashley, what are the traits of alpha female. I was raised in a traditional society, where men were alphas in Russia, so instinctively i look for alpha males, yet it seems i clash with them. But i also don’t respect Betas or men who have no ambitions…
So, that dilemma is getting on my nerves.
Laura says
We want alpha men because we want alpha children. We have to work smarter at relationships with alpha men, they certainly keep us on our toes! We don’t always come first with them, but we’re expected to be available to them when they want us. As long as you’re not a stick-in-the-mud and are up for it, you can have the love and adventure of a lifetime! It ends when you don’t want to climb over the next mountain with him.
The true alpha males I know are far from abusive and controlling. Those are the traits of weak men. Alphas like to hide their sensitivities and vulnerabilities, but they do not need to overcompensate for their lack of character with power trips. If an alpha male chooses YOU to be his mate, it’s because he trusts you and has confidence in you.
Mike says
I think every seems to forget is that the only version of ‘alpha’ that the manosphere adheres to is not what you personally think personifies an ‘alpha’.. but is only based on the sexual choices of women. ie. those men who have women tripping over themselves to sleep with him are alpha whether you like him or not.
you can wax poetic over what traits you find desirable in a man, but the proof is in the pudding more often than not that women continue to seek sexual relationships with men who display ‘game’ attributes and keep beta men on the side as last resorts when nature timeclock goes boom.
a true alpha knows he’s an alpha. a pua behaves like one, yet yields similar results. everyone else on the sidelines is beta to zeta.
Ladybug says
That’s an interesting point of view, Mike. As a dedicated people watcher and wildlife observer, I see it differently.
The majority of women go after the Flash, the Players, the Decoys totally missing the true Alpha Males. They may be testosterone driven, but they are not alphas. These men lead all the lesser women away from the true alpha males, who will be sitting back watching it all with big grins on their faces.
You can spot the true Alpha Males by observing how other men behave, respond and interact with them.
BiologicalOne says
This man sees it. Haha.
Mike says
@Ladybug
Not discounting your hypothesis, but then you are saying that at the end of the night the true alpha’s after having witnessed the PUA’s take the ‘dregs’ of society they simply finish their conversations with the women that are left and go home to self service themselves?
Again, definition of alpha is a man who is at the top of the sexual social pecking order of women. The manosphere definition still stands unchallenged because the women have still chosen either the ‘true’ alpha to go home with, or the Roosh’s, Tucker Max’s, and other game players/pua’s.
Again so we are clear, ALPHA = sexually active/dominant. Beta to Zeta = going home to Palmina. You can say someone like Tucker Max is hideous, vile, has no alpha features or characteristics, but he has certainly created a very high female body count on his bedpost. Since he has zero problems getting laid and has women beating each other with sticks to try and bed him… he in the eyes of the manosphere and Game theory is an alpha only due in how women sexually choose to interact with him, not what men or women think of him personally. Real alpha’s also have no issue getting sex whenever they choose, they just probably have a better class and selection of women to go home with.
Ladybug says
The real alpha males did not arrive with the pack. They arrived later. They was busy with payroll so Tucker Max and the Boys have money to blow on the girls with no self control. They were securing the business for the weekend. Business before pleasure for the true alphas, and they aren’t going to miss out on quality women. To the untrained eye, they may appear to be a completely separate pack of males, but careful observation will show the subtle interaction and deference.
Yeah, in manosphere and gaming, he who gets laid the most is alpha. He who gets laid the most is the player with the biggest bag of tricks. That’s coyote, not alpha.
Alpha traits are intelligence, power, and control. There are physiological components to alpha status, too. I’ll not get into that here.
Mike says
All well and good. But for all the beta’s to zeta’s watching, who do you think they are going to emulate if they’re constantly going home alone?
There will be a slew of ‘Where have all the good men gone’ books in the coming years, begging men to ‘man up’… but if women keep rewarding the wrong men, and ignoring the good guys on the sidelines, they’re either going to leave the game all together, or learn GAME and exact a toll later on. Ignore them in their 20’s, they’ll ignore you in your 30’s.
The current environment can only be corrected by women since it is their sexual pre-selection that is the driving force behind the marketplace. You’ve always been the gatekeepers and men adapt to the times. Always have, always will.
Ladybug says
I just entered the dating world this last year after being out for 20 some years. My question, Who neutered the men? I am finding good men, but they’re Old School and not online. I go to where the men are.
Who do you emulate? Where are the dads to teach men how to be a man? Why not be yourself? Embrace your awesomeness! What kind of women are you looking for? Stupid drama queens who lack self control? Then emulate the players. Buck-toothed bimbos with no brains? Buy a Corvette.
I don’t know your age or what area the country you live or if you’re metro or rural. I have two young adult daughters that are not married. They are smart, successful beautiful women. Both have given up on dating jock types. The eldest is dating a friend from high school, a dweebish medical examiner. The 22 year old is in California and gave up on dating white boys there because they won’t treat her right. Her bf of 2 years is a Salvadoran welder who treats her like a precious treasure. He totally respects her and is a very nice young man. I have 1 daughter left in high school, she is autistic. She hangs with the jocks and they are protective of her.
So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth.
We aren’t into games, lines or bullshit. If you show disrespect, a negative attitude or whine, you’ll get a smackdown, laughed at or worse, you’ll get IGNORED. (or look that will freeze your liver)
I have no idea what dumb women are looking for besides getting played and layed.
Saint Stephen says
@Ladybug
Wow! Excellent post. *Clapping*
Ladybug says
So Mike, take your eyes off the players and the silly women who flock on them, shift your thinking from instant gratification to a relationship. Dump your negative thinking and go to your happy place.
When you are out on your woman hunting trip be observant and emulate the true alpha male, even if you’re not one. Show confidence in yourself. Again, ignore the players and their silly women.
Do you see the nice looking women who are NOT flocking on the players? There should be at least 1 or 2 of them if not more, and they appear to be alone. She also appears to be ignoring ALL the men. She’s not. She’s waiting for alphas. Observe to see what she does. Does a man come back to her? Does she move positions? Observe several at once. Choose your target, circle and approach.
Be a gentleman. Be intelligent. Be positive. Smile, and not like a fool, either. No cheesy tired pick-up lines, no sexual references. Say something intelligent that needs a response. Introduce yourself and ask her name then join her. Don’t ask permission, you’re an alpha. Offer her something. Ask questions to learn more about her, likes, hobbies. Don’t blabber about yourself except commonalities. Keep the time flowing by asking if she would like to do something else besides what you’re doing right then. If you’re sitting, would she like to walk, if standing, go sit, noisy, find a quiet spot. Be a gentleman.
At the end of your time together is when you ask if she will go out with you and ask for her phone number. Nail a date and activity down and don’t be wishywashy know what you want to do. Have plan A and B ready to pull out of your pocket, and you WILL call her to chat within 2 days.
Russian bride says
Thanks Evan for sharing this because i really don’t know about alpha man.
Mike says
@ Ladybug.
I like everything you say and am glad to see it being said.
However this is the one conundrum facing most men in the dating world today… especially the younger more impressionable men, not the 35+ that have survived the battlefield.
“So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth. ”
That’s what we’ve all been led to believe and told throughout the ages, but even if you can say with absolute certainty this applies to you and your family, it is the experience of scores of men that what women say they want is not what they actually want. The Roosh’s and Tucker Max’s of the world would have no success if this formula was the golden rule. But it isn’t, and time and again many decent guys get to watch the girl they’re interested in go home with the asshat.
And it’s not all just dumb or silly women, there are many educated, well to do women that are just caving into their carnal instincts for these gamers, and guys are observant if anything and will extrapolate that if x gets y easily, why bother doing z?
That’s all i’m saying.
justme says
I don’t even know who the Roosh’s and Tucker’s Max are.
I can say with absolute certainty that Ladybug’s comment apply to me. And Mike, I feel that many men don’t look deeper than the surface with looking at women (the crazy hot chick). I’m not a head turner but I think I’m pretty cute. But I’m laid back, easy going, supportive. the very things guys say they want. . . . and yet.
Mike says
Google > Roosh V
Google > Tucker Max
Read what they think of women. Read how they treat women. Read about how easy they get women to drop their panties. All types, all stripes, no discrimination, good girls, bad girls, virgins, sluts, etc… they can game them all.
So if women give it up to them without batting an eyelash, why would a sane man believe that playing ‘nice’ will win the day, especially when they’ve been rejected for playing nice and watch the woman then proceed into the bed of an asshat. Monkey see, monkey do.
There are men that don’t look beneath the surface it’s true. You’ll find most of these guys at the bars and clubs. The ones you overlook, during daily life, the ones that don’t stick out because they’re not loud obnoxious alphas, are the ones that do look beneath the surface. Stop going to bars and start striking up a convo with a guy at the supermarket.
I don’t know what you look like JustMe but if you send me a pic 😉 ill give you an honest assessment. But if you look at the following image, hands down you will find most men will choose cute over hot/sexy, ESPECIALLY if the guy is looking for good quality characters. The sexy/hot one, sure she’ll turn heads, but all a guy will want is to try her in bed and not much else. That’s my own generalization.. YMMV. So check the pic and see if you compare somewhat.
Zaq says
Totally agree with Mike
And this alpha thing is useless unless it is clearly defined. In nature you would expect an alpha to be leading the pack. Therefore a man OTHER men look up to.
I once went to a speed date event. A guy comes in wearing jeans, unbuttoned lumber jack type shirt and a very loose black tie. Think clown. He is however fairly attractive. He proceeds to stick his name tag on his ass.
Cue arrogant swagger as a finishing touch.
The guy I’m standing next to says “what a complete XXXX”. Yes I say, but this is the sort of guy the women are going to go for.
There were plenty of educated, experienced, sensible women at the event. They all went for the guy with his name on his ass. He was very successful.
So what are relationship oriented guys supposed to learn from this Ladybug ?
Fenix says
My first BF was a beta and the most wonderful man I’ve ever met. Kind, faithful, smart, fun, committed. He was crazy about me and I loved him too. He didn’t have the macho attitude and therefore, he couldn’t stand up to his boss and ask for a raise when he had been working in the company for 10 years. He couldn’t stand up to his own mom and tell her to get off his back. He had been in college for 10 years b/c he lacked the drive to work and study and do everything. He was depressed b/c his work, his studies, and his family wasn’t what he wanted and he didn’t know how, or couldn’t change anything. I tried my best to be supportive but after 9 years of this I just left, I couldn’t take it anymore.
My second BF was an alpha. He wasn’t depressed, he had a job he loved, he had the drive to do everything he wanted. He came strongly after me and we dated for 4 years and half. He claimed he wanted a wife for the rest of his life, and asked me if I would live with him and have babies. He was never so attentive as the beta. He loved me in a colder and more distant way, but he had his moments of sweetness. I preferred this relationship. He was the leader and I like that. Until commitment turned sort of unavoidable and he ended up dumping me arguing that he just “didn’t love me like he used to”. As far as I know he didn’t cheat on me.
So what I learned is that both types have pros and cons. The alpha broke my heart so badly and coldly that the whole relationship seems like a big lie now. I don’t want another like him. But beta males just make me feel like I am the most driven, focused and strongest in the relationship and I don’t like feeling like a man or feeling like I have a son instead of a couple. I am currently single and I don’t know what I’m going to do.
The other Mike says
Hey Fenix,
sounds like you should grab a copy of Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life Primer and read it.
When you do find a man you like, Alpha or Beta, doesn’t matter. Then leave the book lying around and he will (if he has any shred of desire for self improvement) naturally gravitate back to a more balanced male.
Regards and good luck.
The other Mike.
DinaStrange says
Okay, my two cents. Alpha males are just exciting because you get drawn into their lives and think that your conquered someone challenging. In my opinion, most of alphas were very insecure and once the initial “love” wears off you see undercover a scared, insecure boy with lots of emotional issues stemming from his childhood. I try not to date alphas anymore because i put myself first and i expect a man to put my needs on the same page as his…not behind everything else. If alpha changes for me, i’ll give him a go, if not good riddance.
Paragon says
@ Mike
Too many Game concepts in derive from spurious observations and cargo-culting phenomenon.
Game is largely a myth – a popular fiction synthesized to embellish male success with a basis in real quantities of evolutionary value(like physical attractiveness – which is the only remaining determinant quantity of evolutionary value, when long term mating benefits are taken out of the equation).
The quest for a practically learned skill that can ‘bend’ female choice is a fools errand, because in order for evolution to work opportunistically, it must cull (in particular)male frequencies every generation.
My issue is not with ‘game’ per se, but that it should not be seen to represent a trivially reproducible skill, that can be naively disentangled from its dependencies.
Thus, many observations that seemingly confirm ‘game’, are observing nothing more than spurious correlations.
For example, a key premise of game relies upon ‘confidence’.
By any meaningful definition, confidence is not an a priori quantity – it cannot be disentangled from it’s dependencies, so confidence exists only so far as to say something about these other variables.
Thus, when one observes confidence correlated with a given outcome, it can only speak to a dependency.
It doesn’t just spontaneously organize within an empirical vacuum, and thus cannot be trivially acquired outside of ‘experience’.
So, what gamers(and their apologists) are truly observing (but not intelligent enough to infer), is not that women are attracted to ‘confidence’ per se(as an independent variable).
But, rather that the men who tend to be successful with women(ie. for whatever reasons justify females to signal their receptivity), also have a high confidence(justified expectation) of future(continued) success.
Still, many have observed a palpable female tendency to preferentially mate with abusive, and promiscuous male delinquents.
This tendency is real because it has been biased by evolutionary success(and is thus adaptive in the near evolutionary frame)
Let me explain.
The strategic optima of genetic benefits(indicated in physical attractiveness) is short-term mating, and thus anything that expedites short-term mating traffic(netting males higher fitness gains, and thus an evolutionary advantage) is likewise advantageous.
It then follows that genetically attractive males should evolve strategies that expedite this kind of traffic(frequently indicated in abuse, delinquency, and promiscuity), as documented in the study: “Good genes, mating effort, and delinquency”
(Martin L. Lalumièrea and Vernon L. Quinseyb
a Forensic Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, 250
College Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 1R8;b Department of Psychology, Queen’s University at Kingston, Humphrey Hall, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6.)
Thus, evolutionary success will tend to correlate male physical attractiveness with abusive, delinquent, and promiscuous tendencies(and will limit deviations accordingly).
So, when we observe that females privilege such males, it is not that females find these traits attractive per se, but rather that they are selecting for certain desirable traits that have become correlated with negative ones – this is their dilemma.
In fact, females will be under evolutionary pressure to accomodate such males, as male offspring will tend to share the same inherent advantages as their fathers, resulting in high-fitness male offspring for the mothers(and thus a likewise evolutionary advantage).
Females who tend to reject such males will be at a relative disadvantage(producing less prolific offspring), and thus evolution will tend to limit the frequency of such females over time to the point of rarity.
To summarize, there are evolutionary reasons why female choices tend in the opposite direction from ‘nice guys'(females who privilege ‘nice guys’ – by the conventional meaning of the term – incur an evolutionary disadvantage for the increased prospect of breeding fitness-handicapped sons – thus evolution will limit the frequency of such outcomes accordingly).
@ Zaq
It would appear that the whole ‘Alpha-male’ meme no longer describes status interactions within prevailing human societies.
This is because, in large organized populations(as opposed to small ‘troops’), network reciprocity marginalizes the influence of dominant males through the net ‘inclusive fitness’ contributions of status inferiors.
In small ‘in-groups'(ie. typical of early hominid ‘troops’), there is a strong quid-pro-quo dynamic that facilitates status concessions in favor of a dominant male(as the success/prosperity of the group is more strongly weighted for individual competencies).
In large co-operative populations, the contributions of any single male becomes increasingly marginal(as do the status concessions in terms of the limiting resource in ecologically prosperous male populations – sex).
The point is that male dominance in small vs. large (co-operative)populations entails subtle, but material differences(ie.
density dependence), with implications for the ethological context which formed the basis of the ‘alpha’ convention.
So, the whole ‘Alpha male’ meme is a spurious concept when applied to human mating practices(in contemporary human societies), where mate access is no longer a function of subordinate status concessions in any obvious way.
AM says
@ Paragon – I disagree with some of your premise. Your description of evolutionary process most accurately describes that most recent epoch of human evolution wherein social pressures have become the primary driving force behind mate choice over natural selection. A man being both attractive and abusive have no reason to be genetically tied. In point of fact, societies which are most abusive and restrictive of women tend to have attractive women and ugly men.
I posit instead that we are experiencing the effects of not alpha traits, but the increase of the aggregate of genes producing the spectrum of psychopathology. Self centered to the extreme, viewing other humans as property and treating them as resource objects. This is the society of the conqueror’s mind, kings and emperors abusing others under the guise of ‘divine right’. Sexual access is either forced, or ‘given’ as reward for maintaining the rulership status quo. I posit this is the modern model where men are drawing the ‘alpha/beta’ conclusions, rather than naturally occurring populations.
Females are not under evolutionary pressure to accept abusive males, but under social pressure. Evolutionarily, an abusive male would undermine the structure of a social group, and a female who is continually stressed and physically injured is more likely to destroy her own offspring, is less capable of caring for them, and so they are more likely to be lower functioning. However, in a militaristic society where men are destined to be sacrificed in wartime, abusiveness is highly desirable, and dysfunctional men are best of all because they can be coerced and manipulated into turning their emotional turmoil against the ‘enemy’. And this process of psycopathic traits being heralded as the ideal and indeed, the norm, perpetuates war, which perpetuates dysfunction and abuse.
Women are ‘trained’ to accept dysfunctional men so that the number of ‘expendable’ humans is maintained, and the men can be ‘rewarded’ with easy access to sexual partners. This is not a genetic tendency, but a learned one.
maybe, just maybe says
Maybe the reason you think Game doesn’t work is because you clearly have NONE
based on your aspergy-, long winded boring comment that I skipped
those of us who went from 3 lays to 23 lays have a different conception
of
REALITY
than you
good luck rationalizing when a player rawdogs your girlfriend up the butt and you find out later
but remember folks
GAME doesn’t exist
Jonathan says
Hello my name is Jonathan and I study aesthetics.
I really think human relationships are not that complicated. If we see something physically attractive (that shows good genes, biology, etc…) we will lust after him or her, even if we are married.
Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers. These inspirations are good an all, but to be honest we are more animalistic than we like to believe.
All this stuff about alpha behaviors does make a guy more attractive because the behavior shows good genes. (high testosterone)
In reality I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing and then dwelling on it for years and letting it affect their past relationships.
Karl R says
Jonathan said: (#54)
“Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers.”
Really? On a practical level, most Babylonians, Assyrians and ancient Egyptians practiced monogamous marriages. Some ancient Hebrew sects explicitly stated that monogamy was to be the rule for all marriages.
Jonathan said: (#54)
“I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing”
Do you have a source for claiming that there is 99% failure rate for monogamy, or is that just hyperbole?
Paragon says
@ Jonathon
“Hello my name is Jonathan and I study aesthetics.
I really think human relationships are not that complicated.”
Hmmm.
“Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers.”
Monogamy is a mating system with an evolutionary basis that has nothing to do with philosophers, French or otherwise.
“All this stuff about alpha behaviors does make a guy more attractive because the behavior shows good genes. (high
testosterone)”
Except when it doesn’t(ie. aggression is also correlated with low T and hypogonadism).
Which is why I’ve always maintained that these ‘alpha’ behaviors tend only to correlate stronger determinants of fitness value.
Paragon says
@ Peter
“This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).”
“Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual
Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas.”
The problem I have is not so much with the data(which is an anomaly), but with interpreting it in a way that preserves expectations of sexual dimorphism in human mating.
Thus, if we assume that mating distributions are equivalent(despite a burden of contrary indications, following from acute asymmetries in both mate preference and choice), it must be because some population of females are (somehow)monopolizing an equivalent population of choice males.
Since males are known to have both a higher optimal mating rate, and to make qualitative concessions in favor of mate
quantity(in resolving their higher mating rate) – the only agreeable intrepretation I can fathom, is one where equally high value females are making *extraordinary* concessions in order to monopolize high value males.
If so, female sexual conservatism is saying more about their limited access to choice males, than conservative tendencies,
per se(ie. lacking opportunities to mate with high value males, they would rather be abstinent).
In this case, it is the very *awareness* of high value males, that limits female access for lesser males.
So, the popular assumption can still be justified in these terms.
LD says
Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.
I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?
Paragon says
@ LD
“Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.
I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?”
First off, I don’t know how you are defining ‘Alpha’ – most sexually successful males I observe are conspicuous failures
aside from mating(ie. think metro-sexual, club-hopping, indigent gym-rats).
Secondly, just because he doesn’t conform to your notions of achievement, doesn’t mean he isn’t ambitious, or driven – he may just hold different goals, or values, that you are failing to appreciate.
Interestingly, I don’t know of ANY man, who holds a prospective mate to exacting standards of achievement.
I, for one, would dismiss any women who held me to such a standard as irredeemably superficial.
Nina says
Dear Evan,
I personally did not like this post because it generalizes about such a large group of people.
I am married to an alpha male and have been for 10 years and I am extremely happy. Sure, he’s dominant, successful, ambitious, powerful, and confident. However, those qualities also allow him to be fiercely protective of me and our children.
As a typical alpha male, he’s a fantastic provider. But he also views being a good provider as being about more than fiscally providing. Andrew (hubby) views being a truly good provider as providing emotionally and physically as well.
Yes, he make sure that our family has everything we need and we are fortunate enough for him to be able to take me to the opera and out to nice dinners on date nights and to take our children to Europe and to send them to the best schools.
But he also makes sure to provide for us emotionally. He always comes home at night in time for dinner (he believes that family dinners are important) so that he can have dinner with us (although as the alpha male, he definitely brings home a giant pile of work to take care of after they’re in bed and we’re all asleep), ask our children what they learned in school, and help them with their homework. He also makes time each evening to talk to me. He often gets in bed with me, cuddles me, looks into my eyes, and asks me how I am, how I’m feeling, how my day went, what’s on my mind lately, and if there’s anything I need him to do.
He is an alpha male, dominant, and head of the household, but he views that as him having a responsibility to put us first and take care of us. He’s the leader and he puts first the people he’s leading.
When I’m upset, he takes it as his responsibility as a provider to make sure that I am cheered up and he’ll do what he can to make me smile or make me feel better.
He has never cheated (I do admit that I have to say “as I know of”) and believes that affairs are a sign of being a failure as a man and as a provider.
Every night, he tucks our children in, and then secures the house to make sure that the alpha male’s family can sleep safe. He walks around the outside of the house, making sure that no one put anything that could help them get into a window. He then secures all of the windows from the insides, secures the doors, and then sets up the security system.
He also has a habit of sleeping on the side of the bed closest to the door because he likes to feel like he’s even slightly between me and any danger that might come in.
You can probably understand, Evan, why I may feel offended at you saying that alpha males tend to be poor longterm romantic partners. This man, although dominant, confident, assertive, and always searching for his next challenge (and a soaring sex drive to boot), also spends every Saturday morning rolling around on the floor playing with our children, taking us to the park, coming home during his lunch break to take me out for lunch, planning date nights, and more.
He was also once put into the hospital when he put himself between me and someone who was threatening me and he did so without fear or a second’s hesitation.
I wonder how in the world that can be a poor romantic partner? To me this sounds like an angel God sent me.
Now I don’t want to bash beta males either. Just like I’m offended when you say that such a large group of men aren’t good romantic partners, I wouldn’t want to make such sweeping statements about a group of millions of men of men either.
There are some qualities beta males have that my alpha male doesn’t have. Beta males, for example, show a bit more sensitivity. Andrew shows a ton of sensitivity for my feelings (and as the leader he does think that’s and important sign of being a good leader and husband) but he has trouble expressing his own feelings and prefers to keep them inside of himself.
I definitely sometimes crave to feel his emotion and to share any pain that he may have so that I can help him to conquer it as a team. He has never cried in front of me and I sometimes crave that, crave the opportunity to comfort him.
But an alpha male rarely shows that sort of emotion.
There are obviously great qualities to be found in beta males as well.
This is why I think it is unfair to say that a large group of men, millions of men of a certain general type, do or do not tend to be good romantic partners.
There are alpha males who are FANTASTIC husbands (like mine) and there are ones who are horrible. And I’m just as sure that there are beta males who make fantastic husbands (like you) yet beta males who make horrible ones.
Instead of saying that one large group of millions of men do or do not tend to be good husbands, isn’t it more fair to just judge each man’s strengths as a romantic partner and weaknesses romantic partner as they come?
Let’s not cross out an entire group of millions of men and let’s instead be feminine woman, open, receptive, and accepting to each man and open to learning about his strengths and weaknesses without jumping to unfair conclusions about his character without first giving him a chance to show you what he’s all about.
After all, I never turned down a beta male or an alpha male automatically and I’ve had both great and horrible romantic partners in both groups.
Respectfully,
Nina
Evan Marc Katz says
Nina,
I didn’t have the patience to read your entire comment, so forgive me. Just understand that my clients are alpha females. Such women are rarely good fits for alpha males because they’re too alike. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not that alpha males are pure evil; they’re just better suited for a different type of woman than my typical alpha client.
I’m glad your husband is an angel sent from God; that doesn’t change the fact that alpha males are also objectively high risk because of their conqueror mentality. Since you’re beta (“my husband is the head of household”) you found a good fit for you. I can assure you; most women here would not want a man who is “head of household.
Evan
marymary says
Two words,
tiger woods .
make it four
mick jagger
is this haiku?
Fiona says
I don’t necessarily agree that alpha females should stick to beta men. As an alpha female in other areas of life I tried dating beta men and I hated it. I absolutely want a strong alpha man to play the alpha role when it comes to a relationship. That doesn’t mean I can’t be alpha at work. I think we play different roles in different situations.
Nina says
Dear Evan,
Although it is true that there is a conqueror mentality, how alpha males exercise it lies within their character. Each man, beta or alpha, has a certain type of character and that is what will truly define your behavior.
It seems that in your comment, you say that it’s not that there’s an issue with alpha males, just that they’re not good fit for your clients and you also say that since I’m a beta I found a good fit for me. But you also say that it apparently doesn’t change the fact they are high risk.
I’m not sure what you meant when you said “high risk” but then went onto say that I found a good fit for me. It would seem that high risk would be a bad fit for any woman, wouldn’t it?
Could you please explain to me if perhaps alpha males are not as high risk when paired with beta females? Because if so, what you just said would make sense.
Also could you please explain to me what exactly is a beta female? Because I’ve been researching it for awhile but it seems that different sites have truly contradictory definitions.
Thank you,
Nina
Su-Yi says
Sorry Evan as much as I generally love your advice I have to agree with @Nina here.
I have dated many alphas and many betas and the only man who ever cheated on me was a clear beta.
I feel like both can easily commit the same acts due to both having poor character, like cheating, but they would do it for different reasons.
An alpha might do it for the thrills and the “because I can” feel of it.
A beta might do it due to not being able to tell his wife what he truly needs in sex for whatever reason so he needs to get it from somewhere else.
Same crime, different reasons for committing it.
Fiona says
I am under the impression that different people have different ideas of what an alpha man is which is perhaps the cause of confusion. I do not see being an alpha as having negative connotations per se but some seem to describe alphas in terms I would use for sociopaths who are clearly high risk.
Iosif says
Lots of interesting reading here on the topic! Indeed, alpha males are hard to catch and they rarely change. Unfortunately some woman have a fantasy: “I’ll change him!”.. Remember ladies, that’s a fantasy! 🙂
Fiona says
I think at the end of the day intelligent successful women just relate better to intelligent successful men because they have more in common. It is that simple. I have just spent a week away on a residential training course with alpha men and women. Although I was the only umarried person there, I really had more fun than in a long time and haven’t laughed as much in ages. I have been dating beta men this year and it hasn’t worked out anyway – just felt like lowering my standards too much to be in a relatioship and being dumped by men I felt were not in the same league just made me feel bad. I’d rather give it up now and be alone if there are no alphas left – life is short and there is more to it than finding a partner that doesn’t have the same drive, energy, wit and sense of adventure.
Rachel says
I hate it when men are afraid to admit they are a beta male. For some reason, it has a bad rep. So they call themselves Alpha Males, but “not that kind” of Alpha Male. From your own description you’re most likely a Beta Male not willing to take the title.
“I stop work at 6. I don’t work on weekends or take clients on Fridays. I apologize frequently. If my wife ever needs me to sacrifice for the family, the answer is yes. That’s where my value system lies.”
We should call it the Alpha A$$h0Le scale. Alpha males are in the number one ranking. Maybe that will take the sting out of Betas coming up second 😉
Evan Marc Katz says
@Rachel – I let your insulting comment thru, just so I could respond.
Your intimation is that one can only be an Alpha Male if you’re an arrogant and selfish asshole who is completely disrepectful of other people’s time and needs.
I completely disagree.
Alpha males are typified by their confidence in all situations, their unwillingness to concede that anyone is “better” than them. By this token, I am a typical alpha male. I just happen to be a good husband and father who values work/life balance. That doesn’t negate my original claim, nor does it make me a Beta male.
myrealitie says
Evan, come on! Go read what you wrote to Nina, and now read this comment. You are seriously contradicting yourself now.
Lucy says
Is there such a thing as an alpha female? I suppose that if there is she’d have different characteristics to those of an alpha male. Why is it that nowadays women are encouraged to assume masculine qualities? I don’t think a woman would have to have masculine traits to be considered ‘alpha’.
Helen says
Reading these comments about alpha and beta males and females, I’m left to believe that a person cannot himself or herself determine whether s/he is alpha or beta. I can claim up and down, all day long, that I’m an alpha female, because I am XYZ and have ABC. But at the end of the day, if others in my circle of acquaintances don’t agree, what good does my own trumpeting do me?
Ultimately, the only real value of labeling someone as alpha or beta (terms I don’t really like in the first place, as they restrict people into categories) is describing how others interact with you. So it’s only others’ opinion on this that matters. Some may consider you an alpha, others a beta. It’s situational.
Karl R says
Rachel said: (#69)
“I hate it when men are afraid to admit they are a beta male. For some reason, it has a bad rep.”
I don’t know anyone who describes himself as “alpha” or “beta” in normal conversation. Outside of this blog, it’s rare for me to hear someone refer to someone else as “alpha” or “beta” either.
But we’ve all observed men that women are attracted to, and men women are not attracted to. Some of this is based on physical attractiveness and wealth, but some is based on other traits (like appearing self-confident).
Being successful at dating starts with getting your foot in the door. If a woman has ruled you out before you even get within 6 feet, you’re not going to get anywhere. If she’s already interested, then you at least have the opportunity to let personality (or other positive traits) work in your favor.
I didn’t need to become more ambitious at work to succeed at dating. I didn’t need to become a natural leader. But I relied upon my ability to get a fair number of women interested in me before I even made eye contact with them.
In my dating pools, I created the impression that women were attracted me, enjoyed my company and trusted me. I wasn’t creating an illusion out of something that didn’t exist, but I was creating an impression that exceeded reality.
Rachel said: (#69)
“Maybe that will take the sting out of Betas coming up second”
If lots of men acknowledge that you’re a sweet, smart, caring person that some man would be lucky to have as a wife, but those same men chase a less intelligent, not so nice acquaintance and ignore the opportunity to date you….
… Do the kind words take the sting out of being the woman that the men ignore?
Talk is cheap.
Ellen says
Evan at #70:
I completely agree with Evan- you can be alpha and not an arrogant a-hole. My Dad was an alpha male, a very nice, caring man to all, and one of the things he projected was the attitude Evan describes of “no one is better than I am”. Particularly intellectually.
I feel that way about myself thanks to him. (If someone can do math better or faster, I simply call them “mental athletes”, but my reasoning powers are second to none imo.) That, plus my athletic ability (I beat men at tennis as a kid, etc.), macho, can-do attitude towards a lot of home repairs, never playing the victim and I am probably an alpha female. lol Deluded I know, but my confidence has gotten me places.
Lucy #71: Some of the most intimidating alpha females I know are as feminine as you get- they just have wills of iron and brook no opposition from anyone. Let’s put it this way: If people regularly call a woman a “bitch”, chances are she is alpha.
Joe says
In wolves the alpha male is the leader of the pack. The alpha female is the leader’s mate. The beta pair is supposed to be the second in command. So sure, it seems reasonable to assume there is such a thing as an alpha female in humans. But if it’s like wolves where there’s only one alpha female for each alpha male, if you’re an alpha female, your odds of attracting an alpha male are not very high.
Ty says
All I seem to attract are alpha males. honestly I didn’t even know what an “alpha male” was until I noticed a pattern with the men I was dating and started to look for advice online. Then I noticed they all had these similar traits of being dominant and needing freedom. the man I am seeing is even more “alpha” than the last! He’s a good man though, but it takes so much patience to deal with him. I love him but I’m at a point where I am not attached to outcome. I’m sure he likes it that way. Smh. There is something about me that attracts these alpha men like bees to honey. My dad is alpha, maybe that’s why.
Carmela says
My dad is an alpha male and my current partner is an alpha male. If you are in the presence of a real alpha male and not a player then you would know that alpha males don’t cheat!!! That’s the real alpha males.!! Alpha males have it soooo together that they are not lead astray by the first good looking woman that comes along. They are hard workers, have plans and settle down quickly and really love their partners. Not if she cheats of course!! Then he will dump you. I will say that again Real Alpha Males Don’t Cheat because they have way too much self respect for that. It takes more than financial success and fame to be an alpha male, much much more. Many men want to be rich and famous just so they can sleep around. Not the alpha. Alphas also have a strong commitment to their children even in the face of self sacrifice. They don’t ever bitch about their partner to anyone doesn’t matter what she does. They are really awesome men and just talking about them makes me love them more.
Bill says
It seems as a last resort, very lonely women will have casual sex more or less to cure their loneliness OR RECENT PAIN, rather than because they really love casual sex and feel wonderful and proud afterwards.
To me the above is only possible if the woman truly cares for herself, and does not have sexual “switches”..Sure, some women can bang tons of guys then finally fall in love, but more often than not something is missing.. The reason she can bang so many guys in the past is because she was emotionally “not all there”, and more or less already scorned, bitter, etc.. A mere shadow of her true self.
Think of our most basic and true nature..Perhaps the first time we had sex..
Men will basically try to bang any girl or woman that will let them.. they cannot wait.. They are fantasizing about sex daily, and it is not involving “love” at all.
Now women are quite different.. Usually women have sex for the first time with a guy they atleast think they love.. Not many girls are in a hurry to get banged by anybody.
Now over time, many girls can become abused, scorned, hurt, influenced by media etc, and they will drift away from their true nature, which is attaching sex to love.
While women CAN physically have casual sex over the years and it does not destroy them, inside they are never truly content with this..A very small % that might have underwent abuse/are bipolar/repeatedly hurt can block out their natural female emotions as a way to protect themselves.
Apparently casual sex for women with no emotions is satisfying, yet the women who claim to do this admit they have done it very very sparingly, or with friends..Or once in their entire lives after a break up.
Sounds more like being lonely than really enjoying emotionless casual sex.
Sorry, there are double standards..
One small example would be crying… Acceptable for women over many small things, not acceptable for men..I doubt many women would be attracted to guys who cried almost daily over any small thing.
I am pointing out that sex is vastly different for men and women.. That is how we are made.. Even the girl who says she has casual sex without emotions points out the sex she had was with people she was already emotionally connected to, her friends.
I have found that the most insecure women are the most sexual. Making a guy cum seems to be a quick fix for their insecurities. of course aftewards they feel like trash, or are so cold that they lack feelings completely.
I have NEVER met a secure, balanced, confident woman who could just have sex, get up, leave, and feel happy never seeing the person again.
Rose says
Me Neither Bill , I have never met an emotionallly healthy woman who is able to have casual sex. Or an emotionally healthy man. They are fillling the void temporarily and emotionally/spiritually disconnected. Having a distorted view of sex and love.
Yes some hromonal adolecent boys have been taught to compartmentalise objectify and disasociate. And some girls have been taught to objectify hemselves and disasociate from themselves. It is only the ones who have differnt upringings or mature’grow up in a healthy way that don’t do this. Or stop doing this.
Some carry on having sex for instant physical gratifaction not caring about, wanting to or being able to emotionally connect and be in a real loving two way relationship with a man or woman.
J says
Rose- you dont know enough people then.
starthrower68 says
You are correct J. We have raised an entire generation that emotionless hook ups are normal. And we’re told it’s a wonderful thing.
J says
Starthrower- there is not just one way to have relationships, and there never has been. Better to have people be honest about who they are and what they want, at that time, rather than be shamed into pretending to be someone they aren’t, just to conform. Because pretending doesn’t last forever and then all types of people get hurt. Different does not automatically equal unhealthy. ( haven’t watched the video you linked to yet so don’t know what it says)
starthrower68 says
J, that is not at all what I said. Please review.
J says
Starthrower- I know what you said. I’m saying hookups aren’t abnormal, nor are they inherently bad, nor are they only reserved for the emotionally stunted. They also simply aren’t for everybody.
starthrower68 says
As I have said many times on this blog, I know my value system is seen as unpopular, unhip, old-fashioned, etc. I get it. I’m not moved by that, but I get it.
m says
@starthrower68 – Your value system may be unpopular, but I don’t think it necessarily follows from that that it is either unhip or old-fashioned.
Similarly, just because something may be deemed “en vogue” because “Everybody’s doin’ it”, it doesn’t follow that that thing is something that doesn’t leave a fair amount of emotional havoc in its wake (irrespective of however much of said havoc is, at the end, down to oxytocin and neurochemistry).
“Casual sex” has become much more common in great part because men will exert their social leverage pursuant to the “what you won’t do another woman will” rubric. It’s not just “hip kids are doing X while hepcats are limited to Y”.
Some women do it because they like it and/or don’t have time for a “relationship” – however defined – and I haven’t done a recent poll, but I’ll bet that number is much smaller (except for the overworked ladies; that one may be rising) than the one consisting of women doing it because they’re being pressured by men and don’t want to risk losing an otherwise promising relationship … or they’re tolerating it because they really like the guy otherwise, but he’s terrible in bed (and gets defensive if even gently corrected).
It’s not just you. 🙂
starthrower68 says
Well it’s only fair then, that I get out of the way and let him go have the other woman who will give him what he wants, no? 🙂
Princess says
My Alpha male cheated and never apologized, continued seeing the other woman and wanted me to stay too. Instead of him being apologetic he was more upset as to why I “ruined” things for “us” I shouldn’t have snooped and we will all be happy. Well he should blame my intuition it refused to shut up Already! My alpha male was good to my kids and I. He told me he loved me everyday, and I knew he meant it. Evan is right. I was very supportive of his business ventures. He never made a decision without consulting my advice. He knows my intuition is always on point. He did believe in settling down and all and said he will never leave me. Only he didn’t say he will never cheat. We were together for 5 years which by the way is the longest relationship he ever had at 42 years of age. They usually lasted about 3 months. For some reason we just couldn’t let go of each other. Maybe because he had been cheating all along. Who knows. Any way i left him. I didn’t give him any ultimatums because I know alphas hate that. I didn’t ask him to break up with her because again alphas hate to be told what to do. I just left and told him he can have the other woman but he can’t have me also. Did he come chasing after me? Nope. It’s been 6 long difficult weeks. But that’s ok too. I learnt from the experience.
melko says
I have been dating alpha male since 2008, when i am in 2nd year of high school, and he is so full of himself, full of confidence and i like this kind of man. And we broke up at the end of 2011 because i decide to let him go because of his behavior being to harsh on me and talking loud. I know his love for me is pure because i know he has been diligently making money so we can married when we graduate from university (it’s common for girl from my country to married before 25). But his behavior is making me sick. After that, we were seeing another person but the relationship didnt last long. At the end of 2012 we start to comunicate and he keep want to meet me. Doing all kind of thing romantic he never done. Giving all his time for me. Call and message all the time. It was the time we about to graduate. At may 2013 we start dating and it still fun. But not fun anymore since he started his own restaurant so he is so busy to death. And i am feeling annoy with this sudden change so i nag him every single day. And he always mad at me but never say break up. Now since his restaurant system work well, he always spent his leisure time with me. Not my leisure time with him, but i need to wait for his leisure time. He love me for sure and he is kind of guy who never cheat. He ever say to me that he want me the way i am. Just dont do 2 thing : no cheat and no drug. And of course, he is doing the same because those are his standard.
My tips for girls who are dating alpha male:
Dont take the lead
If you ever want something, never tell them to follow your order. It get them irritating. Just casually say your dream when you are laughing together. Example. I craving for dim sum (which he never like to eat, so obviously he will object if i ask him to accompany me). When we at the car and passing dimsum place, i will say that IF WE HAVE TIME i really want to Eat delicious dimsum at there. He probably say he dont like it but dont get into argument. Just let it slide and reply with fun statement. Never pick a date and make him eat what he dont like (remember you are not gonna leading him). Just when he have time and wanna treat you, he will remember your wish to eat dimsum (and he will). If you satisfied his thirst to lead and conquer, he will begin to treat you by doing thing you wanted. The success rate is 70%.
But remember. To make him feel success in leading and conquer, you should not that type of girl who stupidly listen to anything your boyfriend say. You are the girl who he feel to conquer. You have your own opinion and your own standard.
JW says
My bf has told me himself that he is an alpha male- I guess I never really thought to categorise men like this. Previously I only saw partners as either someone I had chemistry with or not. And every time I made poor choices. This time I have felt the strongest connection I have ever felt but I now face an issue that I find painful to deal with. He says I should never say no to him- basically the sky’s the limit- because that’s what he would do for me. Generally I agree, but there are 2 limitations. I would never do anything illegal and he asked me, if he ever suggested a threesome would I say yes. NO. I have struggled with my self esteem all my life and the idea of sharing the man I love with another woman makes me feel like less than a woman. Not just that but we met online, talk every day on Skype, but as we live in different countries, the idea of a threesome before we have been able to be intimate ourselves tears me apart inside. I love him but I don’t want to feel coerced into doing things that make me feel shit about myself.
Jenniebee says
OMG! I’m freaking with these comments. I am in a relationship with an alpha male and sometimes I can be alpha with a beta male, of which was my ex-husband. I couldn’t stand the beta. I felt like a man. AlphaG is very jealous and the complete description of a true ALPHA. I feel that he dominates me that I almost become zeta which I kind of like. He has this hold on me I can’t walk away from. I am mesmorized. He is very, very high maintenance also. Wears me out sometimes. He does listen and can be very loving when he feels like he is really making me happy and I am cheerful. But if I have too many problems with something he gives me the option to leave him (but I know this is just a tough guy front). Yes he could successfully go on without me but he really doesn’t want to. (I think). To make matters worse this is a relationship that I left my beta husband for of 9 years. I also wasn’t physically attracted to him anymore either. This is not the norm I know but we waited until we were married to have sex. WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT that was. Eck. I hate to be so mean. The sex with the ALPHA is wonderful!! I love it. He gets wild and crazy with me. However lately he has been drained from work and he’s starting to get low T I think. I don’t want to be 50 something and a butter divorce’. That is my worst fear. I am 44 with no children and am career driven myself but in a different way. I hope that the good Lord doesn’t look down on me for believing this sometimes but we are both scorpios with the same birthday 5 years apart. I am very much the sensitive type but kind of alpha at times. I would severely be crushed if we couldn’t last. However I am the type that I will give it several years to work and if it doesn’t I will find someone else. I have been married more than once also eeeek.
Jay says
Hello
I would say if your looking for marriage or a family man the alpha male is not a good investment. I use myself as an example, I am interested in only Money and Power and getting what I want. People like me view people as resources and a means of getting what we want. I work out specifically to give me access to higher quality females to use for sex. It’s because I have no time for a relationship I have my goals and aspirations I’m committed to and they don’t include towing a woman and children through life like a giant anchor.
starthrower68 says
Thank God there are women out there that will keep you in that little subset of society. We serfs and peasants are all very thankful.
twinkle says
Hmm I’m dating a quite-alpha guy now, with some similarities to Evan. Not 100% alpha, not a total workaholic, has a good moral code, ‘courts’ women he likes etc. But a successful businessman, smart, stylish, charismatic, funny and good-looking.
He has mentioned wanting a family, and he treats me well. But I’m starting to think this is not ideal, and there are many women who would probably agree with me after such experiences. Eg he has many friends that he spends time with (male and female) since he’s so extroverted, which is usually fine with introverted me cos I need space. But then, sometimes a woman likes to feel needed, and I feel that much more with ‘beta’ guys than with this quite-alpha-guy.
Also, he’s such a metrosexual. And although he compliments me on my looks all the time, lately he’s been wanting to do things like bring me to get my nails done, and to wear jewelry,I don’t give a damn about stuff like that. This is the first time I’ve dated a guy who made recommendations for me to change something about my appearance. I feel like maybe his expectations are too high and I don’t want to spend my life trying to fit some glamorous ideal.
Frankly I don’t much care that he’s good looking and stylish. But I can tell that he has good character. And I hate walking away from a guy with strong values, although I can see the downsides of being with him. I’ve decided that January will be the month that I and him decide whether and how to proceed. A new year, new beginnings! 🙂
Bystander says
Everyone seems to be missing an important point. Alpha males are NOT achievers in their careers or business. Beta males are achievers in their careers and entrepreneurs. That is how the stereotype of founders of startup firms never having female company came about to be.
Lynnie says
An alpha man has mastered his masculine and feminine energies allowing them to work synergistically in their daily lives. He knows how to balance his home and intimate life.
Sarah P. says
Hello All of You Lovely Ladies,
(And I sincerely mean this because every woman out there has her own brand of loveliness). I wanted to chime in to this conversation as a woman who has been married to an “Alpha Male” for 12 years now. A lot of women come to me for advice and ask how I was able to marry someone like my husband. Is it that I am 5 foot 10 and thin with blond hair and blue eyes? No. Do I have a powered career? Used to before our second child was born. Did I make a lot of money? Yes, but before our second child was born and I gave up said career.
Here is what I have to say in terms of reflecting on my own situation with an alpha male. My husband is a physician and we met during his last year of residency. By that time I had been working in management in information technology for several years. I also had a masters degree and was well-traveled. He and I met when we were both 29. I think marrying him had more to do with my own perspective and who I was and the fact that I was comfortable in my own skin and did not allow a man to dictate my life or my happiness. When I graduated from high school I knew that I would probably want to marry in my early 30s. I also knew that I wanted a graduate degree and a fulfilling career and that I wanted to travel the world and experience life. Looking back I was the type that broke many male hearts during my 20s. And it wasn’t because I was super gorgeous or anything like that. I was comfortable with in my own skin, I knew what I wanted, and I was intent on becoming a successful, well rounded person. By the time I met my husband I was looking for marriage and I stated earlier upfront what it was I was looking for and who I was looking for. I didn’t worry about turning him off for playing a game because once again I was comfortable in my own skin and I knew my own value. Even though other women fawned all over him I refused to. I had my own money and I was happy at work and I was looking for a certain set of qualities. In essence, I was looking for my own match. But I also had a lot to bring to the table and that I had never been promiscuous, I knew how to cook gourmet meals, I looked after my parents and worked out every day, I had a lot of hobbies that included traveling, reading all kinds of different books, going to the theater or the opera, or on the opposite end rock climbing, some weightlifting, and also volunteer work with animal advocacy groups and children’s advocacy groups. First and foremost I saw that I had value to bring to a relationship. When I dated my husband, I was really spending a lot of time evaluating him and I did not give into his physical advances. In fact, looking back, I believe this was one of the things that really made him interested. For better or for worse, men don’t like it when a woman has had too many lovers. I had made a point to not sleep with very many men at all. It was not because I was conservative but because I see my own body as sacred and special and I’m not going to share it with very many people and so I did not. No was I attractive, that is physically speaking? Well he seemed to think that I was his type. I am about 5 foot six and have porcelain skin, hazel green eyes, and long curly Auburn hair and a natural hourglass figure without having had surgery.
I think it was a good match and that’s why we married. He was actually looking for someone who knew how to be a traditional woman and you knew how to cook and who wanted children. I fit the bill. But he also considered me and intellectually and he still says I am his intellectual superior.
Now being married to a doctor is not easy. I tell you that each week there is a new nurse or medical assistant who is trying to flirt with him. For a long time I will admit that I was very irritated by that. But I came back to realize that once again I have inherent value. I have also not allowed myself to get lazy. Currently I run a freelance business from home, I take care of her two sons, I publish books, and I do what is necessary to more or less keep a prepregnancy figure. That involves a lot of working out and not eating whatever I want. But most of all I remain interested in life and my own hobbies. But aside from all that, my husband considers me to be his best friend since we have a lot in common in terms of both moral values, goals in life, and even hobbies and interests.
I know full well that one day I could be traded in for a new model as they say. But I realize I cannot control the things that other people do and I can only control what I do. I am the type who will be on a constant path toward self mastery and trying to achieve excellence in whatever I do. Still, my family is the most important thing in my life and creating a nice household with lots of good food and lots of nurturing and understanding and love is the most important thing to me.
From time to time women ask me how I married a doctor, as if it’s some kind of prize. And what I say is it is simply a case of matching. I was just as successful as he was, but we also deeply understood each other on a personality level and we had complementary qualities as well. I never played games with him and I was always warm and nurturing while setting boundaries and not taking any kind of behavior that I felt was a violation of my boundaries.
So, marrying an alpha can absolutely be done but it truly is a game of matching. You need to be more or less equal to him in one way or another. Doesn’t mean you have to have a high-powered career. But you should probably pursue Life as passionately lady as he does and be able to bring a lot to the table even if it’s not monetary. Most of all don’t ever give up a part of yourself for an alpha male just to please him because it doesn’t work. This is especially true when it comes to sexuality. Make a man earn your affections.
Yet Another Guy says
@Sarah
You need to understand what being “alpha” really means with respect to being a man. Just because your husband is a doctor does not mean that he is an alpha. It is just means that he is highly desirable due to his high ranking within society. Most of the doctors that I know are full-on betas. The alpha male is a unique breed.
Chris says
I’m an alpha male, I’ll admit it. I’ll tell you why many of us are like this but mos are beta males because most guys like acting like women or dont have any confidence to meet women so they have oneities for one girl. We refuse to bow down and cater to woman. I won’t ask my girlfriends permission to buy sunglasses or a shirt, I won’t make her “the best thing in my life” which means if she leaves me or the relationship fails, I’m lost in life and everything else takes a backseat, I won’t let her control me. Many woman like beta males because they can control them. Someone wrote “I want him to put me first”. Why? Why can’t he put you equal to everything else in your life,. Would you like it if he told you that he has to come first…above job, family, friends, life…he has to be the center all the time? No. It’s taking away freedom. Some woman know the beta males will put the woman first, chase after her, provider for her scared to death she’ll leave him, and let her make all the decisions even deciding where to go for diner, and the men will just follow along. Even if to a lesser degree put her on a pedestal. I had a close friend who was a beta male provider, “she comes first, I jump when she calls, she’s the love of my life.” He got walked all over and than dumped by her and he was so needy to her he needed constant assurance she won’t leave him because he had such a hard time meeting other woman and she knew this. Most guys lack the confidence to meet woman so the first girl they meet, they go with, and she knows this and uses it against him. “Leave me, but wont find anyone better”. Some guys can’t even get the nerve to talk to woman. Woman know alpha males have options and won’t put up with their crap. Women come to them, they don’t care if they’re single because they have a life, or they’ll use means to get the woman they want making it clear if she gets snobby, controlling, possessive, or tries to hold back his freedom (go to work, have friends, that stuff) he’ll walk away. Just like woman walk away from needy, clingy, obsessive, and controlling guys. A guy should never cheat on his girlfriend or wife…but if the girlfriend knows he has options, she wont be so “I have this guy by my finger…you better apologize for saying no to me last week even though I was wrong or else no sex for two weeks and maybe then I’ll still leave you,” Women…do you want a guy that is a leader, and will tell you you’re wrong when you’re wrong, make his own decisions, and let you be a woman? Or do you want a guy that caters to you as your “yes boy”, lets you make all the decisions, never leads, is needy and clingy to you because he knows he doesn’t have the skills to meet other woman? Think about it. If you find an alpha male that is only open to monogramy relationships…you have it made. He’ll want to try things that the beta male won’t try. You wont have to act like the man because he’s to busy acting like a female. He wont follow the normal. I had woman leave me for beta males saying they wanted to settle down and get married…but after a few years of him working, putting her first to the point he can’t make a decision in life, and not wanting to do anything but manage a house, take care of the kids all day, and maybe go out of town once a year for vacation, they realize what a waste of life it is for them. Don’t settle for boring beta man providers that will apologize for their own shadow and seek everyones approval, that will buy you everything, act like a girl himself, and run after you like you’re his lifeline to live.
Not Jerry says
Chris is mostly right, and everyone should re-read his post.
I only wish he had used paragraphs.
I am an Alpha male, I was married over 30 years, and I never slept around, and I never would. Not every Alpha male is a philanderer, but what you are talking about is Alpha males do have options that other men might not have. Believe me, it doesn’t take much to get offers, if you are, well, I call it being dynamic. That said, a loyal man doesn’t sleep around, even if he gets offers all the time. I sure never slept around.
Being an Alpha male just means being confident, being dynamic, being self sufficient. Being a leader.
Evan’s post about a woman has to be prepared to be led is exactly right. That is the cost of being with an Alpha male. With the right man, I am sure it can be very rewarding. Or a lot of you girls seem to think so. I’m not sure I get that.
There are many Alpha males who are *a$$holes*. Yeah, of course there are, but there are those in every walk of life. That may be well represented in Alpha males, but you can find those all over. “Everyone has one.”
What Chris said about “we won’t take your crap” is right too.
I insist a woman let her guard down.
You have to put yourself out there, and that may mean being a little vulnerable if you want to be with me.
If you are not willing to do that we have nowhere to go in our future, and it’s time to move on, because I’m looking for permanent. You have to be prepared for that. I am not dating around and trying to trade up. It’s just how it is for me.
You must become so important to me and to my life so I can’t replace you. If you fail at that, a breakup is probably imminent. You cannot neglect an Alpha male, or you will become unnecessary. And you will not be able to become so important to some Alphas, because they might not be looking for that, or they might not be aware of what they are looking for. That’s the problems I read complaints about from women here, they didn’t like the breakup, and this is often the solution.
How relationships are is this, especially for those of us who are older, or who have been alone a while.
You have to give things up. A new relationship is often characterized by that: what you are willing to give up? It’s interesting how many don’t get this.
When you are alone you have ultimate freedom, you can do whatever you want. When you have an S.O. and maybe a family, there are definitely limitations on those freedoms. You have to check with your counterpart if you want to make plans for next weekend. You have to share, you have to negotiate, you have to consider someone else’s needs and wishes. Marriage, family, and relationships are all like that. If you get past just plain dating.
You have to be available for a relationship, if your time is filled with your routine what person is going to fit in that life? That could be career, hobbies, friends, family, church, anything that fills your time. You may have to give something up to put a whole new person in there.
The mentions of Alpha males taking a two year assignment in another country, that is an example of that, you are just not his priority. You have failed to make yourself important enough to his life that he wouldn’t consider taking that gig! You as a woman have to become irreplaceable. I as a man have the same goal, I want the idea that I am no longer necessary in your life to be incomprehensible. You should not be able to get rid of me, if I have done my part correctly, and you have to do the saem.
This is why when you meet someone in their 40s or 50s that have never been married there is often a reason for that, they won’t give anything up. They never had to learn to share, to negotiate, to take someone else into account. They just want what they want.
This is how an unmarried, single Alpha male can be, I am sure. And for many that can be a danger zone. They are untamed.
Evan, I wish these posts and comments all had dates.
Robert says
Alpha has nothing to do with looks or mass.
Karmic Equation says
Untrue. The alpha type we’re talking about here are attractive.
Sure there are ugly alphas. But women aren’t lining up to date them. The good looking alphas? Yeah, the line goes around the block.
N says
Touché.
There are alphas who are physically unattractive. The ones with power and money.
MilitaryFemale says
Hello, all, I’m not sure how old this post is, but just found it and wanted to join in on the conversations. I’m still reeling from the loss of a relationship with an alpha male, and am still trying to understand what happened and welcome your input, but can also say what I’ve learned so far…
I dated and fell in love with an extreme alpha male in the military, with highly specialized skills and experience in war. He is everything “Steve” I believe, had said, and he was also physically strong, extremely and naturally athletic, and mentally strong. You know, the type that would walk right out of the hospital after being blown up or falling out of a plane, (seriously, he did). Even large dogs were afraid of his presence (seriously, I saw it), and he enjoyed exercising his alpha-ness.
He also was hard working and had provided a lot for his family, and much was on his shoulders. For the alpha male, this is what he does and is the one with the strength to do it. This is how he had seen himself. He lead and took care of his young wife well, until she finally left him after so many years for reasons he never understood.
Our courting was beautiful. His heart was open and he loved talking to me all night. He said things that showed me he wanted to protect me and provide for me. He wanted to know if I’d be willing to have children with him, said he wanted his next relationship to be his last and remaining one, and if I could be happy going anywhere the military takes him. I began to open my heart to finally being cared for as a woman, inviting him to be the man in our relationship.. I fell in love and gave an enthusiasitic “yes” to everything he was asking me to consider. Our lovemaking was passionate, I felt amazing to him, and he could not keep his hands off me. And he had only been with 2 other women in his life, so no, he does not fit the player profile. This alpha wanted to believe he was a strong man of moral character. And I don’t think I’d ever been more attracted to a man and fell in love harder than I have with him. I still love him deeply.
Well as soon as I said “yes” to him, everything went down hill from there. I think a lot of things were at play, the military was overworking him on a detail that was not fully his passion, and the one and only emotion this type of alpha allows himself to feel is ANGER. The more I asked for communication on what was happening, the more I lost him and he pushed me away in anger. Till this day. He never fully communicated with me ever again, and has now completely cut me off and closed his heart, accusing me of being too needy and insecure, which he accused his ex wife of.
What I came to understand of these extreme/military alpha males, is that they can also be very weak spiritually, and immature emotionally, and have suppressed all feelings, except their rage and anger, which comes exploding out, and is built up by other feelings and emotions that they don’t know how to understand or deal with, and have built up so many walls, that they’re not even sure how they feel or why they’re so angry. And sadly, I’ve dated many warriors (I’m military myself), and this is the exact pattern of what’s always happened, over and over again.
And they push me away, because they don’t know how to relate, how to communicate, or even make it a priority to even try, because their alpha male persona in the end, cannot and will not need anyone or anything – and I should not have needed them either. Confusing, right? You’d think the alpha male wanted to be needed. But not these ones. Having a strong mind, body, ego, and persona are not at all the same as being strong at heart, especially when it comes to women. My sensitive vulnerability was just too much for them, and infringed upon this mask of a wall they’ve created their whole life, and to love me, would cause them to have to tear down the whole facade.
So, yes, in a way, I’m saying the extreme military alpha male persona is in a way a mask, a facade of protection of oneself. This doesn’t mean these guys aren’t amazing with their weapons or on a mission – they are and I have been with some of the best. But they are truly afraid of a woman’s emotions, as well as their own, and cannot deal with it, because it is not at all seen as strength to them – strength in themselves or even as strength in a woman.
The one I’ve loved, while in one of our last intense discussions, which really were fights since he can no longer talk to me without anger but is the only time I can get him to communicate and actually hear his heart, he admitted wanting to be accepted for once (though he’s practically worshipped for his skills w/in the military), and wanting for others to stop “needing” from him, and resented me for his own sense of my needs, and not feeling like he can come through or that he’d even want to anymore (the last part is my interpretation). And suddenly he went from wanting to build a future together and be a blessing on my life to no longer being able to feel it in his heart anymore.
Yes, I do believe and regret the “hunter” in him was too quenched when I said yes “too easily” and I often wonder if I should not have been physically intimate with him, so I do think there is also a lot of psychology at play here that I needed to learn about primal masculinity, if I may call it that.
But what I really found that – even though he is NOT going to allow himself, or allow me in his heart – the strong military alpha male – deep within walls and walls of protection around his heart, is actually very human and wishes he could be loved for who he is, not just what he does for others, and does tire from being superman, and comes to resent it. Problem is, he won’t fully admit it, he can’t admit it, and will go the rest of his life with this to keep this “identity” of how he and the rest of the world see him. Ever notice how many honored warriors are never smiling, even in happy, social experiences? And/or why they always want to be, or retire away from people? Well I can’t speak for all except the many I know, but have found that some are either miserable, or have settled into somewhat of a contented discontent or indifference. And the one I love admitted to being miserable, though has his dream miltary career – yet he doesn’t have the love the truest part of him craves yet he doesn’t know how to get it and refuses to learn, and goes on with the next woman. Same with another I had dated in the past that comes back every couple years to say he wished he could’ve been the man I needed, then pushes me away again… and always does it in a very cruel and cold-hearted way – they all do.
So if there are any extreme/military/warrior alpha males out there reading this, I encourage you to give the girl a chance that hasn’t given up on her love for you. But to love her and receive love, you need to break down those walls to your heart, even if it means revealing a scared little boy inside just waiting for God to love him and show him the man he was born to be. There are women out here that will love you fully – boy and man – strengths, weaknesses, and all.
Karmic Equation says
MilitaryFemale,
What you say may be true of your military male as I don’t have experience dating them. But eliminate the “military” part and I have a lot of experience.
When a man says, “I don’t want to talk about it”, believe him and leave him alone. Don’t pry. Don’t cajole. Don’t feel that you’re not supporting him unless you get him to open up. Just say “Ok” and let the matter drop. That alone will do wonders for your relationship.
Talking about what’s bothering them doesn’t help him. That “venting” we do unburdens us. When men are “forced” to communicate with us about their problems by our insistence, it makes them feel helpless. As if speaking about their problems and having no answers makes them weaker. Whereas for us women talking about it until we’re all talked out is cathartic.
Believe it or not, your respecting his need for silence and solitude to ponder his problems, will make him love you more, not less. It’s often the opposite for us women. But men are from mars. Classic difference between the sexes.
MilitaryFemale says
Thanks so much, Karmic Equation! I appreciate your posts here!
May I ask you, in your experience, will the alpha male eventually share? Or will it go years and years without communication if we don’t ask for it?
Do you continue to love the alpha male, even if your emotional needs are not being met? Or is part of allowing him to his silence, to also walk away from the relationship?
Not Jerry says
My advice?
Give him a little time. And don’t give up on him.
Your story was beautiful, and I hope you can get him to reconcile when he is able.
It may take a while, because of his work. But I believe he feels a loss as much as you do. So have faith.
Karmic Equation says
If you need an expressive/communicative man, you need to date one not try change a man who isn’t that to become that. It doesn’t work.
Think about it this way. You are an talkative and expressive person. A man who loves you is quiet and likes silence. How long should he wait for you to become a less talkative and expressive person? Suppose he tells you gently every day, that he treasures spending time with you, but only wants you to talk when he feels like listening.
Will you eventually change to become less talkative? Or will you eventually resent having changed your nature to suit him?
Just because we women like a communicative guy and think open communications are healthy, doesn’t mean that men will get on board that train.
If your needs aren’t being met, then it’s better to walk. Love is not enough. There has to be compatibility, too.
Best of luck to you.
stonewall says
The women seem to look at it as a business. How long will this donkey pull my cart, and how much money can I get when I sell him?
Why would some intelligent guy marry you? What do you offer?
I mean really, what do you offer? You seem unaware of how little you have for an intelligent successful man. Good luck, there are still some putz out there who don’t know any better.
Ricardo says
Hello boys and girls, after reading all of this and being myself an alpha/super alpha, i have to say a few things:
First of all alpha males drive this world for the good or bad period.
Alpha males are very goal, life oriented, and not everyone can handle their nature, period.
True alpha/Super males are not selfish, they do care but only for those who deserve it, anyone doing otherwise, it is no an alpha, but a alpha wanna be.
Now lets start here something: have you wondered that are somes man that do not like to get mistreated by womem? could be that some of those alpha haters did something to deserve that? think better on your own actions.
Man cheats because some womens uses sex as a weapon, and trust me, i know exactly what i am saying 😀
Nothing against beta, but natural evolution explains quite well how it works 🙂
Jenna says
Stumbled upon this page while pondering the world and being a knowledge junkie. The overall responses on this thread are organized, thoughtful, diverse and well-written. I am compelled to agree with Soul Sister and simply state that an Alpha Male or Female is essentially the leader of the pack. They just are. In an organized group dynamic they will instinctively take the lead. They are confident, compassionate, ethical, composed and driven. They are highly skilled communicators. They are intelligent, resourceful and optimistic. These skills make them natural leaders. You cannot judge an alpha by their career, income or status. You can spot the alpha male by his strong, effortless and humble prescence. His demeanor whether reserved or aggressive given a variety of circumstances is noticeable. His dominance is recognized and respected by both men and women in his presence.
Sandi says
Evan you area bang on!!! I have a battle with myself. I am attracted to the alpha male and it has gotten me nowhere. I have been told i’m an alpha female .The past relationships i have had and one for 12yrs; was always butting heads, arguing and always banging my head against the wall. Alpha males, are selfish, all about themselves. They don’t bend and if they do, its temporary. They are fun, the life of the party. Personally, i find them the jekyl and hyde. My ex was a narcissist. I am wondering if there a direct relationship with the two? the Alpha male who is narcissist? I can tell you, these relationships don’t end well. If you happen to marry one, they will make your life a living hell. I will try and find a beta man, eventhough, i am not attracted’or better yet.. I guess i will stay single.
Michelle says
I have been married to an alpha male for ten years and we have three young children. Overall we are happy and he is still the man of my dreams. He is extremely handsome, masculine, hardworking, loyal, and a loving father. That being said there are definitely challenges to being married to an alpha but I’m willing to handle them. For example, it takes a lot of confidence because women LOVE my husband and try to flirt with him constantly. I am however very attractive myself and make sure to take care of myself which helps me feel less jealous, plus my husband is so honest with me (brutally so sometimes) but he’s never given me any indication that he would actually cheat. My husband can be a workaholic which can be very hard on me but he doesn’t allow me to control or dictate how much time he spends with us vs working. He is a great provider and does is best to support us. He can be extremely headstrong and sometimes he acts like a jerk but part of me respects him more for not allowing myself to push him around. I find that a lot of women I know tell me to “stand up to him” and that advice just doesn’t work because it just pushes him away. Just so you know, he has never been abusive or anything, but he’s naturally just much more of a dominant person than I am. Overall, even with its challenges, I don’t think I’d want it any other way. I find that when I tell him my needs in the most direct and non-nagging way, he does his best to make me happy. He also has a high sex drive and keeping him happy that way really helps. I find that I feel more safe and protected giving him more power
Michelle says
I also want to add that if you’re an alpha female, then no, dating an alpha male is not worth it. But I think many women would be more happy accepting a more feminine role and not having to make all the decisions and have all the responsibilities. Also I think that some people are talking about more extreme men than normal desirable alpha males. Some men are abusive but I wouldn’t call them alpha males. I am actually surprised by how many couples I know in my area where the wife wears the pants because I feel like so many of the male vs female differences are innate. Even my nine month old son acts very different from my daughters and I find it fascinating and a normal healthy thing. He’s just more active, less needy, determined to reach the next developmental milestone, and just wants to play. There’s a reason alpha males are so attractive to women. If I wanted a woman I’d be a lesbian but I’m not, I want a real man who’s not afraid to be the man in our relationship.
Crystal says
I agree with everything you say, Michelle, about the benefits of marrying an alpha male. your husband sounds a lot like my fiance. The only exception I take with your comments is that you said:
“I also want to add that if you’re an alpha female, then no, dating an alpha male is not worth it.”
You described your husband as “naturally just much more of a dominant person” than you are” However, as a dominate alpha female myself, I want to give hope to alpha females who want a relationship with an alpha male:
Although you may not consider yourself to be “naturally” a submisse person, the fact is we all have both dominate or masculine potential as well as submissive or feminine ones. Because I really wanted a kindhearted but clearly dominate alpha male, I learned to adapt to his personality and nurture my submissive potential, which I rarely did in the past. By doing this, I get to enjoy all the benefits of feeling safe and protected by my fiance and not having to always do the heavy lifting in our relationship.
By doing this, never a day goes by without my fiance telling me how much he loves and appreciates the way I “take care” of him. Meanwhile, he makes me love him more and more each day by taking good care of me. Our relationship is by far, the best I’ve ever had and he says the same about it as far as he’s concerned.
I just wanted to let other alpha woman to know that all is not lost if you want a strong, confident and protective alpha man. As Evan has said, the key to having a relationship with a man like that is to bring out of yourself the innate qualities you possess to attract such a man. If I could do it, anyone can. Like you said, Michelle, the benefits of this approach are well worth the effort if your desire is to be with an alpha male.
N says
I think an Alpha Male would have a pretty successful marriage life esp if that is what he values. I cant imagine an alpha being able to cope socially and workwise by not having an amazing woman by his side. But it would be hard for the women the alpha may try to have affairs with when he gets confused. That happened to me unfortunately. I got to taste what it’s like to have an alpha pursue me. It felt so good. Unfortunately at the end of pursuing I found out he had a gf he was going to leave but then they sorted out their issues. He valued relationships and commitment which is great, but I got stuck in the middle. Yuck. What a shame. But as far as what kinds of women they want, I think it all depends on their needs eg beauty, nurturing woman, motherly, sweet, secure with emotions, faithful etc. These are the qualities the alpha I knew liked about me, but his partners’ goals and career and social status were more in line with where he was headed. But boy did it feel good to be with him. One thing I did notice about this alpha was his difficulty in processing his emotions around me. He loved how comfortable I made him feel so he was sort of hanging around to boost his ego.
rawr says
i appreciate evan’s attempts, but a lot of men are wising up to how many women spend all their years chasing these alphas, only to give up and look to settle on them as their last option. call it insecurity if you wish, but it’s downright insulting for a woman to think it’s ok to treat men that way.
SQ says
Kind of like the guys who spend all their years chasing as much ass as they can get and then expect to settle down with a nice virgin. Insulting to think it’s ok to treat women that way, no?
Except that neither anecdote represents the reality for the majority of us, does it? Spare us the very unoriginal red pill tripe.
Jup says
My two cents … An Alpha (person/male) needs a pack. By pack I mean the sum of all activities that make that person happy: partner, job, money, all of it. And lots of action. Alpha is definitely a leader. So it’s not that Alpha is bad, it’s just that Alpha needs more “toys” and entertainment and yes, it can be easily distracted because there are so many interesting things there. And, yes an Alpha can chose where to put their attention. It’s like the captain of the ship.
A Beta (person) needs a partner and someone who somehow lead them, give them the instruction manual. They would be absolutely brilliant at supporting the enterprise, a bit like the engineer of the ship. They also need a pack (everyone does) but they also need to know what’s their role in the pack and where they sit.
This is what I think about that definition and why a beta could be happy coming home after a very hard day at work and turn their attention on domestic issues while the alpha still runs the ship even in their sleep.
Esther says
Here’s my relationship story with an alpha male.
He is a true alpha male, never worked for anybody, started his first business when he was still a teenager and , developed a dozen more connected business in the following decades. He is also an accomplished athlete in several sports and an accomplished artist. He provides and takes care of his family and employees. He will find work for his employees and pay them even if he has no contracts happening and no money coming in. He adopted his ex-girlfriend daughter and takes care of her like his own. He is overall funny, warm, perceptive, intelligent and extremely responsible.
Something clicked first time we met, but I didn’t think he would be a good prospect for me, because I knew how much time he spent running his business and how dedicated he already was to his daughter. I didn’t think he had time for a relationship.
But he pursued me, invited me on a trip, declared he had feelings for me before we even slept together, and I fell for him. In the beginning he would tell me that he had not felt that excited about someone in years, that he couldn’t wait to travel the world with me, that he always dreamt of having children, etc…
Then he started working 80-90 hours a week again. I would only see him 2 or 3 nights a week after 9pm, when he was too tired for anything other than going to bed, and be gone to work by 4:30am . He stopped talking about doing things together, I would spend my weekends alone while he worked or took care of his daughter. On the very occasional date night, we would stay in and watch a movie because that’s all he had energy for. His needs would come first, he was too exhausted to take care of mine. When I would complain that I felt irrelevant, lonely and his last priority, he would say that he loved me, and wanted me to understand that he did that so he could retire in 5 years. I tried to get that in my head and wait. But being lonely and alone months after months while being in a relationship with someone you love is no fun at all. The guy was great, and I love him, but I wasn’t happy in that relationship.
So I left. Him. That awesome boyfriend that I could never have by my side. I wanted so much to give him love, but he was never there. I was always missing him, his presence. I tried to enter into his life and understand his world, so I could love him better, but I couldn’t fit myself in there.
I still don’t quite understand how he could give me so little attention and encouragement in the relationship, but seemed so sad and broken when I told him I had to leave.
[email protected] says
Don’t expect loyalty from an Alpha. His needs first. You just follow, like the good little puppy dog you are.
Charm says
I married a high-powered, charming, top performer narcissist who I initially trusted with my whole heart. But, after 10 years i found myself divorced while he went off and married a younger version of who he wanted me to be, and not who I actually was: an ambitious, kind person with both traditional values but still liberal and open-minded. I thought he was an “alpha male” but really he was just type-A misogynist.
Shortly thereafter, I met a true alpha male – a CEO/owner of a big law firm. He was smart, kind, loving, generous and somewhat of a hopeless romantic – a true leader. He took me on luxurious vacations, paid for everything, flew me everywhere, etc. After dating over 1 year, however, I ended it, because I couldn’t fully trust him.
Somehow, I continue to attract this type of man, but it’s probably because I seem like an ultra feminine, reserved, beta female. That IS the type of woman they seek, because it complements his busy schedule and priorities. For the most part, his own life comes first, even if he is dedicated to family and to his SO, but a woman who wants to be in a relationship with this type of man must understand and accept this. She must also accept that there will always be women around him vying for his attention. It’s the nature of the game, so she must be secure in herself, and if she isn’t, it will become very challenging.
Nicol says
I recommend no woman date an alpha male. He is raised to dominate no matter what this takes. This means he can observe and commit violence if necessary. He is out for himself only. I’ll admit that its important for ppl to look after themselves. But alphas do everything for their own benefit only. That means his partner is there to serve him in whatever way he desires. She would need to boost his success. He has no respect for anyone cos no one can be equal to his domination. Women are just objects to them. Alphas can’t love. Its not love. They just use, act, and strategise for success and domination.
Misanthropic Delight says
Sigh…Take this comment with a grain of salt, I’m pretty much fed up with the entire human race…
Alphas, Betas, Sigmas, Deltas, Gammas…Does it ever end? Apparently not. Apparently most people are sheep, cannot think for themselves. Who live and die by the validation of the crowd.
Weak, that’s the average person. Male or female, Alpha or Beta. All weak, because you seek the validation of the crowd to determine your worth…
I’m a hedge fund manager,a classic Alpha Male…Obviously I have value. Because the crowd says so…
I’m a highly successful, stunningly beautiful, financial consultant, wanted by most men, and envied by other women. Then obviously I have value. Because the mob says so…
Then of course articles like this are written. So the bland, highly predictable masses can find love and reproduce so the world is filled with yet more predictable people who couldn’t produce an original thought if their lives depended on it…
Dating advice only works because so many people are so God damned predictable, and idiotic to boot…Having yet even more idiotic children when there’s no guarantee our society will even be intact in 30 years thanks to Global Warming…
Then all this Alpha male shit will go to the wayside because most people will be dead…
Most Alpha males are insecure pricks anyway, I prefer someone who can think for themselves…
And yes I’m a woman, despite the email address.
No Name To Give says
MD, In think you might be my new spirit animal.
Dave says
I’m an alpha male and I’d date me. No question. I fucking rock.
Abracadabra says
Kings, Warriors, Magicians, and Lovers. Those are the 4 primary archetypes of men and women. The Alphas are the Kings (or queens) and Warriors. Kings and Warriors are what women typically talk about when they say they want an alpha.
Warrior alphas tend to be the ones that PUA try to emulate.
The ideal pairings are as follows: Kings/Queens match with Magicians, and Warriors match with Lovers. Why do Kings prefer magicians vs queens or lovers? Well, because a King tends to be stoic, direct, strategic, and tactical, they need/crave an element of whimsy and mysticism to get them to see things beyond their vision. Think King Arthur and Merlin. A king takes great pride in ruling and does so with respect, and a code of honor. Beware of the King who becomes a dictator though. Like each of these archetypes there is a shadow version.
The warrior on the other hand is a bit more of a one trick pony (no shade). His life is black and white. He sees life in terms of wins and losses. Because he is constantly at war, he needs a soft loving, emotional being to come home to and help him grow those parts of himself that are missing. Just like the Lover needs someone to help them exercise their bravery and confidence beyond being nurturing. Men can be lovers, just like women can be warriors etc.
The shadow to the Warrior is akin to a mercenary. He is someone who likes war simply for the chaos, destruction, and whatever it can do for him. He is unlike the noble warrior or white knight, as it were, who dedicates his life for a cause he truly believes in.
What I dislike about popular dating opinions is that all men want/need ultra feminine nurturing homemakers. That’s not the case, Warriors want that, but Kings need something different. They need an element of magic.
The shadow to the Magician is like someone who engages in the dark arts, the occult, etc., vs using their gifts and mysticism for good and others, they use if for evil and themselves.
I am a Magician and have no interest in Warriors, or Lovers. Warriors are too one dimensional for me. These, again, are likely the men that PUA try to emulate with fake machismo etc. They end up bedding immature lovers en masse. Women who’s instinct to nurture is undeveloped and poorly understood (due to trauma, or immaturity) becomes tied to pleasing the dark mysterious character who just needs her love to see the light. Kings don’t bother with those low brow games. He knows he can have sex whenever he wants. But, he’s just too busy building and running an empire to waste time on undisciplined base desires of lesser horny toads who keep score by bedding the weak and vulnerable. To many men, bedding wenches is all that they care about. The more evolved men have better things to do.
Carry on
Abracadabra says
….Male Lovers want female Warriors, and Male magicians want Queens. These pairings exist and are becoming more socially acceptable. There are a lot of stay at home dads now with bread-winning wives. One of my good guy friends said he prefers a boss-like woman, and tends to date b*tchy female warrior types. He’s a lover.
Clara says
I have a comment to 96.1 Karmic Equation, reg. where she writes if a man does not want to talk, back off, etc. I am a woman but myself have a reaction to collect myself silently if I feel something is off. So if I mean something is wrong in a relationship I back off and kind of need space to understand how I feel about the situation instead of reacting immediately (not to confuse with silent treatment).
But then what is happening – is either man is getting offended and starts clarifying while I truly need time to process or we both kind of go off. So it is not just men who need space to figure things out, woman do it too, and in that case it is man then who gets offended about the silence or get impatient, like they can not tolerate if you do not give any reaction.