Is There Any Point in Dating an Alpha Male?
Hi Evan, This is a curiosity more than a dating advice question. I’ve read several of your posts that suggest that charismatic alpha males do not make good partners. I also read on HuffingtonPost.com a hilariously titled article (in response to the Anthony Weiner scandal), “Should Women Go Ugly?” again, suggesting that women should steer clear of handsome alpha types who are quite likely to ultimately let them down. So my question is, what happens to all these alpha guys? Do they marry? Will they remain single forever? If the conventional wisdom is for women to avoid relationships with them, is it in their (the alpha guys) best interest to skip the so-called American dream, avoid marriage and children and just bounce from one short-term relationship to another? Or is it possible for such an alpha guy to create a meaningful long-term relationship? And if so, what type of woman would be able to create a happy life with a man like this? Based on your advice and that of others I’ve read, it seems that no woman should attempt to deal with these guys. —Sara
Sara,
Right before I got married, I turned for advice to Dr. Pat Allen, therapist, Los Angeles legend, and author of “Getting to I Do”.
Pat is probably 75 years old and delightfully curmudgeonly. She lives in a very black and white world and has a bunch of catchy aphorisms that she trots out when she sees common dating dynamics — especially for women with an excess of masculine energy. I turned to her because we’d met on a panel once before and because I respected her experience and wisdom.
I told her that I wasn’t sure that I felt what I was supposed to feel for the woman who I was considering proposing to. I didn’t have that obsessive, breathless, “I must have you” sentiment. I didn’t miss her madly when she went on a business trip. I was just plain happy — in a healthy, fun, nurturing, supportive relationship that had no obvious flaws apart from what was buzzing through my head: “I don’t have the FEELING I think I should have!”
My thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets.
Pat asked me: “Are you a career man or a man with a career?” (This is one of those aphorisms.) I told her that my career was not just a job, but kind of a calling. Thus, she determined that I was a career man. She told me that, as a career man, since my job would come first, I could get married and be perfectly content, but I’d always be longing for more. She finally concluded that, based on my profile, I would probably cheat on my wife a few times.
And that was our session.
Yes, Dr. Allen’s contention, essentially, was that if you’re an alpha male, your natural tendency is to put your needs first, to conquer, to dominate, to spread your seed, and to hope to not break too many hearts along the way. In this regard, she’s somewhat correct.
And in this regard, I realized, I’m not a pure alpha male.
It’s more important to me to be a good husband and father than it is to pursue my selfish interests at all costs. If anything, I have a fierce ethical streak (which surfaces here from time to time) which is stronger than my thirst for money or new women. I would not suppose that everyone is similarly driven by doing the right thing. After all, having character involves tradeoffs, and alpha males most certainly don’t want limits put on their freedoms.
So, to bring this back to you, Sara, my thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets. I would guess that most women who’ve gone for them would concur with this observation. Alphas needs come first. Their schedule comes first. They may try to spend money on you but it doesn’t compensate for their lack of attention, affection and understanding. They rarely make you feel safe and secure. But you hold on because he’s such an intoxicating catch. Make no mistake, he RELIES on his charms to allow you put up with all his bullshit.
As always, when we’re talking about alpha males, we’re talking about a sliding scale. I may have the drive and temperament and ego of an alpha, but I don’t indulge it at all costs. I stop work at 6. I don’t work on weekends or take clients on Fridays. I apologize frequently. If my wife ever needs me to sacrifice for the family, the answer is yes. That’s where my value system lies.
If you’re going to go for such a guy, the thing to look out for is what his long-term values are. Does he WANT to be a good husband and father? Does he SACRIFICE his needs for yours? Does he put YOU first or does he always have to win? There ARE alpha males who do that, but there are more who do not.
From what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk — but very few actually get the long-term reward.
So it’s not that it’s impossible to find one of these guys who wants to settle down with you — it’s that alpha males are inherently high risk/high reward.
And, from what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk — but very few actually get the long-term reward.
As for what type of woman you have to be to get this guy, in general, I’d say someone who is supportive of him. Someone who is cool with his hours. Someone who doesn’t nag him all the time about his job. Someone who can listen to him and provide a fun change of pace when he finally clears space to be 100% present. This is really what my book Why He Disappeared is all about — being in your feminine energy — open, positive, receptive, nurturing.
Still, being the ideal woman for an alpha male isn’t always enough — not if the alpha male doesn’t have a strong moral code and doesn’t fundamentally value monogamy as much as he values conquering new women and new businesses.
SOMEONE gets the alpha male to marry her, all right, but I can assure that she is not always happy with what she gets.
Caveat emptor.
Marrying an alpha male is essentially a monetary play for a woman. For at least a while they get big time care, shelter and lifestyle for themselves and their children. If it works out- fine. If it doesn’t work out they are “out of there” which means they get big $$$ which allow them to conduct the rest of their life as they like. No down side except perhaps some short term stress (join the club). A woman may not want to do it more than once though.
Bottom Line> Alpha males are still a major catch even if they are ultimately unsatisfying relationshipwise.
I have to disagree. I’m a divorced, single mom of two and currently in a relationship with an Alpha Male. Oh yes, he has a decent job that pays HIS bills and pays for his hobbies which are numerous. It pays for him to go to concerts and on other outings with his buddies, but I see absolutely NO monetary benefit. I struggle every day with being able to afford things in life, but I never ask him for help (I did once, and it was disastrous). He has borrowed money from me a few times, and I had to nag him about paying it back. Don’t get me wrong, he can be charismatic and charming…even thoughtful at rare instances. Overall though…NOT a major catch because he gets a lot (sex, a place to live, food, companionship when HE wants it), yet doesn’t give much in return. And after writing this, I’m convinced now more than ever to end this nonsense and stop being used for doormat, and a sexmat.
Yah I’d have to agree he’s dead weight. I’m not saying this as a comment on you as a parent, but we don’t generally have a lot extra after the bills are paid. Budgets run right. What have you had to put on hold for your kids because you gave this guy money? Again not calling you a bad parent. I just know that my budget has to be tight. Unlike certain comments above, I make sure that *I* can provide for myself and my children. I don’t ever want to depend on anyone else for that.
Why are you blaming HIM for YOUR shortcomings?
Doens’t sound like an Alpha to me, if he has to borrow money from you.
Just sounds like a good-looking, charming player.
Absolutely. The alpha male doesn’t need a woman’s money for his fun. Much less a mother’s money. He’s a narcissistic hollywood type. Many people have no idea what an alpha male is. They think any narcissistic asskisser with sunglasses and a status birth privilege or a histrion is an alpha male. On the contrary, alpha male is a rational person who can deal any type of situation from a small crise to war, or any bad situation.
Exactly. No Alpha borrows money from a woman. An alpha would be proud to show his woman.
I totally agree with you partly.Am just reeling from a nasty stint with one whos taken my money and used it to fund trips for himself and probably some other woman. But aI once dated anozher alpha who was chivalrous and took care of my needs;so its a 50/50 game of chance
Seems to me that you are the alpha male of the relationship (no offence)
That is not an alpha male. That’s probably an undercover narcissistic homosexual
That is not an alpha male. You are most likely dealing a heavy narcissist. An alpha male has a unquenchable desire to provide and make sure people in his pack are cared for. It is like a bug constantly biting him until he does what he needs to do.
I tend to treat alpha males like crap. When they first f with me they say stupid crap like, “wow you’re really no confrontational” or “you’re such a feminine woman “which to them translates as submissisivre. It just sit back and wait for the wrecking bomb to knock these weak azz alphas down lol. These silly men assume bazaar things. Me? Submissisivre? Nonconlfrontational lol? It just boggles their mind while I carry myself with not caring too much. They wonder why I’m not joining the rest who swoon over him. It’s quite hilarious to watch how this messes with their egos. Alpha male = toxic masculinity.
ATG,
You have obviously never met a real alpha male.. What you’ve been toying with are “social alphas” (including bad boys and assorted players); usually good looking, superficially charming, and as Paragon said earlier, usually conspicuous failures at everything except picking up women. Most of the time, they can’t keep the women they attract, and their confidence level derives from nothing more than easy success, and a lack of adversity. Their egos aren’t usually all that strong.
What do you do, ATG? Act indifferent, make some snarky or even rude comment (s)? Or do you act impressed, and oh so nice…until you go for the verbal smackdown? A REAL alpha male, will not even react to any of that; in fact, he will simply blow you off with a smile, and move on. You haven’t even put a faint scratch on his ego, because he simply does not care whether you like him, or not. He does not care whether he picks up, dates, or even has sex with, you or any other individual woman. He has options….lots of them. At the point of approach, all you are , to a true alpha male, is just one more woman among many who might have the potential to interest him. That’s all. You are not rare. You are not special. You are not a scarce commodity. Therefore, his emotional/ego investment in you, (yes, even if you are a perfect 10), until and unless he gets to know you and decides he likes you, is ZERO.
Don’t flatter yourself, dear. What you’re doing is no great accomplishment. All you’re doing is putting a few bruises on the overgrown egos of some alpha wannabes who haven’t grown into real men yet.
you’re complaining about him being a shitty catch, yet you’re in a relationship with him. meanwhile there’s a guy out there who would’ve been happy to be your life partner except he’s not alpha enough for you. good job
Lol what you have is a loud, me-first, mommy’s boy that hasnt grown up, likely has a large tool to keep you hanging around, and you have mistaken that for being alpha male. A true alpha male, even if not able to connect emotionally as well as a sensitive man, still is able to PROVIDE financially, and as Evan says, MIGHT be a bad bet long term.
You dump your er, “man”, or more appropriately, man-child, and move on. This is a leech you have.
Alpha males are certainly not all saints nor God’s gift to womenkind, but no need to taint the name of the alpha male just because you were unable to distinguish real competence and masculinity with the fake look-i-have-a-large-penis-wow-im-so-fabulous-i-can-give-you-orgasms-in-bed type of man who uses his er, charms, to keep you around. Emotional sensitivity, having values, putting you first, being good in bed, providing for you financially, are all values that MAY be related to each other but definitely not interchangeable, and you my friend are terribly confounded.
I was too till I found a good man. You need to wake up, improve yourself, and move on. I found that when I or any of my friends picked bad-quality men, it was because I was not yet of the “top quality” that I should be striving towards either. Your choices in man and friends are reflections of yourself.
Yes, I am in a similar situation with a very selfish man. However, his first wife still has everything, trips, cars, generous alimony every month. She suffered for almost 20 years with this alpha male but she got a monetary reward at the end. Second relationships are different with these men.
Of course there is they just won’t capitulate to inequity, if you want a man you can walk all over don’t date Alpha find someone that kisses your toes and worships the ground you walk, then after two or three years start hitting on me while your engaged or married to one of them because you are not satisfied with the guy you have no respect for.
Yes, because there are only two types of men in the world: arrogant alphas, and men who you can walk all over. Thanks for the reminder that just because you’re an alpha doesn’t mean you’re a very good critical thinker.
I disagree. I think there are alphas who will do anything for their woman when they find the woman they respect and adore and feel they cant live without. Then there are those men you walk all over, but can change. Speaking from experience, I grew up with a very dominant control freak mother and so did my husband. My father disappeared for a while so my masculinity came out. I didn’t want it to, but it had to. The whole time I hated it, but we needed to survive without men. So when I was older I was a more alpha type woman who really preferred to be submissive and feminine to the right guy. Anyway, so I pursued my husband and all. There was really no other way to get the guy I wanted than to go after him. Sitting and waiting annoyed me. I wanted the best. My husband was this sweet gentleman, but he didn’t take the lead. That was the frustrating part. I wanted him to come after me. His mother was so difficult he was submissive to women. Well, motherhood changed that. As soon as I had kids with him the roles changed. It was hard to enter these roles at first. My husband’s insecurities annoyed the crap out of me, but I’m slowly teaching him to be independent and for him to have the freedom to go after what he wants, without his mum’s permission. I encourage him to make choices, I praise him and I ask to be submissive in the bedroom until he started getting used to it. We are about halfway there, but we are getting there. I am now more feminine and he is more masculine but still submissive. The thing is, me being more feminine is forcing him to do the opposite. We cant both be feminine. And by me encouraging him to up his game, he’s starting to like it. This way I get to have my strong yet sensitive leader who cares for me.
Maybe the one who takes the food from your children for his party amd fun is better. I certainly will respect more. I will encourage him to go on. What is an alpha male? A fantasy. Invention. Few REAL men are in the world today. A real man was able to go to war, work with his bare hands, feed his family, hunt, etc. With the raise technology they only crave party and fun more than hookers (which they hate by the way). The alpha male today is only a repressed gay misogyn.
I agree with you, Mireille. My father was, hands down, and alpha male. He was a leader, dominant, head of the house. He died last year at 91, after 67 years of faithful marriage to my mother.
The same man I described above was patient, caring, compassionate and always put his family first. I would never describe him as arrogant because, although he never admitted when he was wrong, he would admit to changing his mind about previously long-held beliefs (like he eventually conceded that same sex marriage was none of his business).
There was nothing in the world he wouldn’t do if my mother asked him to and vice versa. And he was a very attractive man. He could have had his pick of women. My mother was pretty too. Still is. She could have had her pick of men.
They defied typical definitions of who alpha men are and what kind of women they marry. My mother is a strong women. When it came down to it, in their marriage she almost always got her way. She just didn’t use bossiness to get it. And my father never bossed her. They were a team.
Anyway, with my father as a role model, I’m still holding out for an alpha man like him. A strong, compassionate and, yes, handsome man who puts my needs first. Thanks to your advice, Evan, I think I am in a better state of mind to be the kind of woman that can accept that kind of man into my life.
I forgot to say in my original comment: M my father was a church pastor and small business owner. As such, many woman who valued male leadership were attracted to him.
However, neither my mother nor I or my siblings ever saw him flirt with another woman. He would have considered it extremely disrespectful to my mother to do so. So would I.
I’m used to achieving my goals, no matter how long it takes to do it. So, I’m holding out for an alpha male like my dad–a chivalrous, handsome gentleman who led most by being a respectful human being of high integrity.
The outpouring of love and affection from those who attended my father’s funeral–a good many people considering that most of his contemporaries died before he did–is proof of the admirable way that he treated people, including my mother, and the way he conducted himself throughout his life.
Hello Mireille
Can you pls clarify what it is your statement about…alphas being a repressed gay misogyny?
I agree with Evan – their very nature does make them more likely to cheat. But it also makes them kind of attractive, because you think you’re the ONE to change them.
That only ends in tears.
If you’re happy to come second to someone’s job (and some people are), then go for it. If you know you need a lot of attention and affection from a relationship, I’d skip the obvious workaholics.
I’m not an expert and I don’t play one on TV, but the descriptions of “The Alpha Male” are starting to sound like a bad case the narcissism neurosis epidemic psychologists say is going around in the current generation of adults.
Yep, and there are degrees . I suspect, not just two kinds of men in the world. I read only Alpha and Beta as Dr. Pat Allen would say. Not my experience. I’ve met some men that fall in the middle…I have no clue why women, certainly not me, would just be into him b/c he has a high paying job and is self centered and charismatic…. beats me… I’m an Alpha female that can follow, but I don’t follow a man that has no morals, ethics, compassion, or rational thinking…nor am I a doormat. Sure I really like intelligent men, but that only does it for me for the length of the conversation, after that if he is an ass, I’m out. Alpha’s apparently get by with their behavior b/c women out there are so caught up in the wrong attributes in a man. Apparently not very smart emotionally. Alpha’s just haven’t grown up emotionally…. they haven’t had to… The higher the IQ the less social skills, and the more self absorption.
Evan, I think you need to define Alpha Male – there are many types – many shades of gray. I think you must mean one that is a CEO – he is at the top because he was narcissistic and screwed a lot of people to win along the way – he is good looking, athletic and overly confident. But there are many men who are successful who put their families first. Then there are ones who are less confident with no ambition.
Athletic???If they were athletic they were Usain Bold or Serena Williams :))and no need yo screw other ppl. There is no such thing as alpha male. A homosexual(closeted or not)can be more successful today in the right circumstances. And also a woman with low testosterone. Being alpha is not about money and succes (my opinion)is about the way you lead your life.
@ my honest answer #2: I have a problem with saying you shouldn’t come second to someone’s job, whether you’re a man or a woman. I think there needs to be a balance between the two–there are times where your relationship is more important than work, but there are times when work is more important than your relationship. If you lose your job, it’s only going to put more pressure on your relationship.
I think there needs to be a balance between the two—there are times where your relationship is more important than work, but there are times when work is more important than your relationship. If you lose your job, it’s only going to put more pressure on your relationship.
This is an obvious dichotomy, however if the man loses his job and he is the main bread winner of course it puts a strain on the relationship, but this is where the couple get to find out what their relationship is truly made of: Is their relationship made up of good times and laughter when the sun is shining and fights and bickering when the storms have come home, or when the storm hits the couple batten down the hatches cling closer together for strength, support, and strengthening their bonds when the forces of nature are trying to destroy their characters, their hopes, and Adonai forbid their family.
It is easy to be strong when times are good, but your true strength is revealed when all is against you, and the measure of the man is can he keep it together and keep his loved ones together with him when a strong man has entered his house to bind him and take all which he truly cares about.
We will always find work, but always remember a piece of paper we work for does not and will not replace the members of your family you fret for.
There should also never be a balance, balance can be considered like compromise, here is how; a man and wife have been married for a few years, the man gets terrible news he has prostate cancer, so he goes for surgery gets the cancer cut out, and now his plumbing does not function in one area.
She is a woman, she works for her living but she does not get to do adult play, she works and no play, and as you said there needs to be balance. All work and no play, there is no balance so given her obvious conundrum, her life is not balanced; she works a lot with no play, the plumbing of her husband does not work, she is married, she is loyal, she is committed, she is in love, she has her children and family to consider, does she cast all her excellent qualities aside for BALANCE as you would say?
Your approach to a very complex situation was naive, superficial, and arrogant displayed in ignorance. This is my honest question to you.
Evan,
I have had 2 “long-term” relationships with Alpha males. While I am obviously attracted to that type of man. I am trying to get out of that way of thinking and dating men that put me first. My problem is that the chemistry is just not there for me. I am dating a man now that is head over heals in love with me and I am going to talk to him tonight and tell him that I just can’t see him anymore. How do I get out of this way of thinking? I want to have a long term relationship with a good man.
While I very much agree with the importance of considering family in a relationship, I disagree with equating “alpha male” to “career man.” I think that in women’s minds, they’re completely different things.
Historically (it’s somewhat less relevant today), a woman would consider a male alpha if he is able to provide the resources she needs for successful reproduction, and then further on Maslow’s hierarchy, her personal needs such as affection, attention, affirmation, etc. One does not need to be a career man in order to provide these things. Evan, you say that you’re not fully an alpha, but in your wife’s mind, you would be as long as you met her needs and she felt secure in your continually being able to provide them.
Career men include artists and musicians and writers who don’t make much (if any) money, but are completely obsessed with their pursuits. That doesn’t make them alphas, necessarily, in the minds of women, unless specific women got gratification out of being with someone who had a plethora of those particular talents.
Also Evan, it does not make you “not an alpha” that you quit work at 6 and don’t work on weekends. It means that you have a good sense of boundaries. Then there are those of us who feel as though we didn’t finish everything we wanted to during the weekdays, so it spills over into the weekends, and sends us into a spiral of guilt that we’re not devoting the right time to the right people… It makes us guilt-ridden fools, not alphas, I can tell you that much. 🙂
<Does he WANT to be a good husband and father?>.
Evan, i dont’t think that WANTING is of any importance here. Don’t you think that maybe there are guys out there who claim to want this, but actually do not put any effort in doing something about it?
And, how can you actually tell if he HAS good husband/father potential? You cant just ask him….
An alpha (in my opinion) is a man or woman who has virtually everything but is still not satisfied (this basically encompasses CEOs, some military officers, celebrities, and the like).
I was just broken up with on Thursday by an alpha who completely changed his personality when he started his career months ago. I saw the breakup coming but I couldn’t leave him (even though I’m almost sure he was cheating on me).
He told me that I’m always first in his life and he couldn’t wait for our wedding day and the birth of our children. This proves that people will say all kinds of things to secure themselves from loneliness. In that regard, I disagree with Evan. Just saying a person wants to be an amazing mate or model parent doesn’t always mean they are willing to help themselves achieve their goals.
So I found a definition of alpha, because it bugs me how much we throw it around here and everyone seems to mean different things by it. According to dictionary.com, an Alpha Male is:
The dominant male animal or person in a group.
I think it’s easy to forget that this term is defined by it’s relativity to a larger group. No man is, or can be, dominant in every realm.
Dominance does not go hand in hand with things like compromise and a lot of other traits we think of when we think of a loving relationship. Neither does it automatically equal all of the negative traits that we tend to assign to it either.
Thanks, Jennifer. How does that change or negate what I wrote though?
Smart woman Jennifer, you searching for a definition of alpha male was the best starting point to formulate an extremely strong case. For your efforts I thank you. To the man who wrote this post you are describing two completely different kinds of males; selfish and Protectors. You have described to us the selfish male whom you think can be classified as an alpha male, are you stupid and do you truly know what an alpha male is. Anyone no matter who they are if they are considerate of their own needs first are not alpha, they are only selfish. A true leader is consderate of the weak and defenseless first making decisions for the group he leads (a.k.a the Head of the family – Maybe the father if he stuck around, or it maybe the mother if she stuck around, or if in both cases the two are still alive). Of course he gets to pick the best of the group, but in the world of mankind we cannot take all the best for ourselves and leave the scraps for the rest.
This contemplation of an alpha male is really sickening, apparently an alpha male is on par with God Himself. For those who want a simple analogy of an alpha male here it is: an alpha male is a Man, not a boy with hairs on his nuts, a Man. He protects those he cares about, and also those whom he works with, He provides for those he loves from his family he was born into (if he has not created his own yet) or the family he has made then the family he was born into right down to his baby sister or brother and the needs of the nieces and nephews he has from her or him. He is a leader, he cares for his own, ALL his own, because the lose of one is like the lose of his own limbs.
He is fierce, he is strong, and he stands against everything which would even attempt to bring any harm to his family, he is wise, and strategic, he can smell trouble coming a mile off, and steers his family away from the calamity before disaster strikes.
So it’s not that it’s impossible to find one of these guys who wants to settle down with you — it’s that alpha males are inherently high risk/high reward.
The superficial understanding of an alpha male people through out is stupid. An alpha male gets all the beautiful woman, what happens if the so called alpha male ends up settling for a plain looking woman, but has the character traits which do not succumb to his diabolical charms he is use to using for his own ends, even though she has the desire to sleep with him and give into her desires, but her convictions hold her fast?
An alpha male is only alpha IF he gets what he wants, and he will use all the tricks necessary from his playbook to get the result he wants, which is to tap the next good looking booty who comes passed his vision. To all the males reading this here is a hard and fast solution for you; if you want to be alpha do this; go to brothels and have plenty of sex with good looking women, and dress like a P.I.M.P through out a few slick lines and you are an alpha male, tell no one your dirty little tricks and keep up the charade, you will have a handful of wannabes licking the dust of the ground before you take a step onto the piece of ground.
An alpha male came near me, I would rip him to shreds I tell you the truth now.
@Evan- I’m not trying to negate what you wrote. Just trying to put a frame around ‘Alpha Male’ since folks seem to throw all sorts of meanings to it that just aren’t there, and then draw conclusions that are less than valid. You know how comments tend to meander 😉
Everyone has a slightly different idea of what alpha male is. Growing up in area that produce steel I’ve always considered blue collared jobs “working with your hands” more masculine than white collar jobs. Thus I can understand when Evan is talking about that high earning pretty boy business tycoon alpha as someone as confident in what they do. And certainly they’re are proud peacock alphas, as anyone who’s a dated a musician knows, that don’t make a dime. So currently my list of careers at high risk for alpha behaviors are as followed:
Cops
Musicians (particular current music but if he’s a carnegie hall ready classist you still need to watch your back.)
Actors
Fireman
Military Personnel
Doctors
College Professors
Stock brokers
Hedge Fund Managers
(Ok anything financial save perhaps accounting)
Construction Workers
Surgeons
Models
Personal Trainers
Graphic Designers (for some reason video game designers are less douchey)
Executive anything non profit to advertising
Politicians
Business Owners
Athletes ..ALL
Elite anything, astrophysicists, economist, reporter ect.
Bartenders
Chefs
Writers
High End Real Estate
Lawyers
Diplomats
I’m sure there are more. Generally speaking middle management engineers, IT specialist, grade school teachers. Copy editors bank managers, retail managers. legal assistants. To be alpha you just have to be the top guy in your social circle. So women looking for a nice beta should aim straight to the middle of the pack for the guy most likely to stay there.
I submitted the original question above. Thank you for answering it Evan. After a good deal of thought, one theory I have is that there will always be a percentage of women (small I hope, though perhaps more common in my mother’s generation), who have a clear-eyed understanding of the realities of being with a so-called alpha male. They understand what the trade-offs are and they fully accept them. If they suspect their husband is having an affair, they turn a blind eye. If they don’t always get the attention they want from their husband, they seek that out from women friends or perhaps a lover of their own. They often have an affluent life-style (nice house, cars, clothing, travel, botox, you name it!), and they have no intention of giving that up, so they view their alpha’s “indiscretions” as part of the package. (Kind of a “boys will be boys” attitude, which is antiquated yes, but my guess is that it still persists to a degree). Not a great recipe for a close intimate relationship, but it is a trade-off that the women themselves are choosing. The key word here is Choice.
I am with an alpha male (surgeon) and there are definitely times when work comes first. But I have my own career and fully support him with things he needs. In return, when we do have quality time it’s amazing. Evan mentioned that these guys make a choice to be faithful or not. If you’re a catch (cooking, cleaning, taking care of yourself and his physical needs and have your own career) there is not much more that he could look for. Being beast going and having fun with your man will always make him want to come home to you and only you
That was really well said.
I think that’s a good answer. I was wondering about that too.
I know that I am not the type of woman who’s a good candidate for a serious relationship with an alpha male, because being with one, or trying to be with one, ignites a power struggle in me. That is an unhealthy relationship, and ultimately a lose-lose situation, “the battle of who could care less.” Especially if he’s actually insecure underneath the flashy exterior. It’s a recipe for disaster.
There are beta guys who are secure and humble at the same time. That’s the type I’m actually best off with.
I think Steve is going in the right direction here. Alpha Male is a good term to use but, narcissism is right on track. All walks of life with money or without..can act like an alpa male. Career or no career can act like an alpha male. I seem to equate Alpa with abusive for some reason. Narcissists are the snotty career people who think they are a gift to us from God. Why wouldn’t anyone want me, I mean, I want me!!! hahahha is their motto! I was married to one…I know the personality well. People regardless of status, with or without money, college education or no college education can be controlling, egotistical, narcissistic and alpha male prone. Just approach with your eyes wide open and read it like it is not what it could be…
XO Carrie
If an Alpha male is an economically and socially successful leader of men (this definition includes overachieving women!) then I have no comment. If an Alpha male is a man who has sex with a lot of women (the two versions probably overlap a great deal) then consider this.
In 1996 the Centre for Disease Control surveyed US college students for risky behaviours. It was a large survey and because most of the questions were about things like motorbike riding it is considered that the answers about sex were relatively truthful. I will discuss the results for white students. There were results for under 25 and over 25.
The average (mean) number of lifetime sexual partners was 9. About half of students had no more than two partners. So most people were virgins or had one or two partners. These people were not considered at risk of health problems. The second biggest group were people with a lifetime total of 3,4 or 5 lifetime sex partners. They were at some risk of disease. They were about a quarter of the total.
The average of nine sexual partners was generated by the heros and heroines who crossed the dangerously promiscuous line of 6 or more lifetime sex parners which made some form of STD, often undectectable HPV more or less inevitable. This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).
What happens after 25? Very little. For the three quarters of the population that did not indulge in high risk numbers of partners the partner count remained almost unchanged. This implies that most college people find themselves a lifetime partner by 25 even if they do not marry immediately. The promiscuous quarter of “so called Alphas” and ***** continued to do the rounds of each other. Basically the Alpha male who is dangerously attractive to all women does not exist. He is dangerously attractive to promiscuous women.
This was an American survey so attention to the racial dimension was of course given. Hispanics were more sexually active than whites in the younger age group. Blacks were more sexually active than hispanics. Whether this says anything about race rather than social class of origin is not a subject for this blog.
People who do not attend college are thought to have less ex if they are qualified at something like trade school level and more sex if they are underclass but there are no really good figures to show this.
Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas. The sexually available are a group to themselves. The idea of the sexual Alpha appears to have resulted from enhanced marketing by self help coaches who use to teach men how to become more confident around women or as in the 1960’s (I just remember the ads on the back pages of imported US magazines) how to develop a phrase/”line” guaranteed to pick up women.
Other studies looking at life time figures suggest that the most promiscuous few percent of men get up to 250 partners. The top women get about 650 (access sex is much easier for women). These figures were supposed to exclude commercial prostitution. Divorce post 30 pushes the base line up. with respect to teh median number of partners as well as the mean.
Real Alphas, as in the sense of social leaders, may well be monogamous (Hitler and Stalin were not known to be sexually active. Mao and Lenin on the other hand … ). Most CEO’s are probably too damn busy.
However, the ratio of human testes weight to body weight suggests that men are designed to have 1.6 female partners. DNA studies suggest that 80% of women who have ever lived reproduced but only 40% of men. Divorce behaviour suggests that women leave and unsatisfactory man whereas men, unprovoked by legal obligations will add another woman to his relationship. Male infidelity often is not seen as threatening as female infidelity. So some men do better than others even if we are not talking about 250 lifetime partners. Or perhaps some men do worse? Women will simply not tolerate below average?
So where does this leave the 35 plus woman who seems to be Evan’s client? Well, which group do you think the never married men might belong to? A divorced man who met his ex wife before he was 25 might be a better target, even if he is paying child support if you really want a good relationship. Obviously he was under performing in some respect hence the divorce but what is the pont of a successful career if it isn’t to support your relationships.
Sorry Evan. I have rambled on rather a lot.
Target? underperforming? Yeah babe!
So, I gather that an alpha female is not the right match for the alpha male?
Dr. Pat Allen talks about it. Only if she can be feminine and follow his lead. If she is head strong and masculine, not a fit.
The most recent alph male I had the misfortune of coming across was one of the most selfish men I had ever met. His fiance of 10 years left him because he took an unecessary overseas job assignment that took him away from her for over two years! Shortly after we started talking, he went on another overseas assignment. This one was 9 months. THEN he dropped the bomb on me that he was applying for another overseas job that would require him to be out of the states 70% of the time! What an asshole he was/is.
I think we need to be careful of defining all alpha males (and females) as narcissists as it is simply not true. While the propensity for an alpha person to be a narcissist may be higher, they are not necessarily tied together. The most alpha man I know, multi-millionaire, hugely successful both financially and in life, is very far from a narcissist. He does have a huge degree of confidence but he is always kind to everyone…his wife, his children, the waiter. Yes, he works a lot, but he also plays a lot with those he loves. A true alpha person is so centered and self confident, they do not need to project control, unkindness, or any other negative traits on others because they can just BE. The alpha dog in the pack will fight if he has to, but typically he just IS, so one look or his mere presence is enough to maintain dominance. He doesn’t walk around biting other dogs just for the fun of it. That would be the alpha wanna-be! I think where alphas get their bad name are people who want to be alpha, or think they are, but are really just insecure and dysfunctional. Therefore they display this dominance as sort of a cover, not a true hierarchy in the group. My experience with bad alphas was that they were more assholes pretending to be alphas. Inside they were just dysfunctional, childish, self centered human beings and I feel sorry for them.
I am an alpha female, people rely on me, I am in a high paced demanding career, and I can project dominance when I need to. But I am also a very kind person (after lots of therapy reduced the dysfunction and insecurity!) and my alpha-ness allows me to just be who I am.
So a narcissist will probably be an alpha (or pretend to be one) but an alpha may not be a narcissist. And an asshole is just an asshole, no matter what you call him/her!
And two alphas can have a relationship, but they must be highly functional people with the maturity to temper their excessive traits, both the good and the bad ones. I highly prefer the alpha man, but assholes and narcissists need not apply……
Good comment. My late husband was an alpha male. It was the second marriage for both of us and he was the most devoted man I’ve ever known. He took all his drive that had over the years been put into his career and put it into me and our relationship. That’s the other side of alpha: the drive to succeed in marriage.
Your late husband doesn’t sound like an Alpha Male, Soul Sister; he sounds like a good person.
Nicely put, soul sister! I agree 100%, that too has been my experience.
@Jennifer #10
Totally agreed. My ex boyfriend was chronically underemployed but he was very much an alpha male, he had to be in control of conversations, had to make sure I did what he said and follow his lead, and had to deal with his tantrums and problems. Heaven forbid I call him on his bullshit.
Anymore now, I won’t date most alpha male types. To me it equals domineering attitudes and viewpoints, loud, arrogant stances, and the like. Not to mention being put in last place in order to pursue other things, not just a career.
I’m retraining myself to take a good look at the guys who are not so alpha male, and what I am finding is that I am having a much better dating experience. I’m not being bossed around, yelled at, or put in last place. I’m usually treated like a lady and am being treated with respect.
So to all of you “not alpha males” out there, NO, you will NOT finish in last place!!! I’m just sayin.
@Margo #18
Was this guy a selfish asshole because of his desire to work overseas, his failure to tell you about it in a timely fashion, or for other reasons?
The working overseas and having a ‘fiance’ for 10 years (I mean, really?) thing just sounds like a guy who is not good at/doesn’t want relationships, but that doesn’t automatically make him an asshole in my book.