Orbiting. Another Dating Problem Created By Social Media.
- Becoming Exclusive, Dating
I’m REALLY glad to be a middle-aged married guy.
I stopped dating in January 2007 when I met my wife at a potluck dinner in Beverly Hills.
The first iPhone would be released later that year.
Texting was around but it wasn’t ubiquitous. Same with Facebook.
Instagram came around in 2010. Tinder didn’t launch until 2012.
And here we are, as lonely and disconnected as ever. Social media sites that were designed to connect us now cause an equal amount of pain and confusion.
And here we are, as lonely and disconnected as ever. Social media sites that were designed to connect us now cause an equal amount of pain and confusion.
The latest term of art from this digital dystopia? Keep reading:
“Prying eyes on Instagram, Snapchat and Twitter can be exciting when they come from a prospective romantic partner, confusing when unrequited and infuriating when the looker is an ex. In the last case, it’s as though the specter of a Relationship That Could Have Been is peeping over your shoulder, keeping tabs without having to commit to any real-world interactions.
Naturally, there is a name for this 21st-century phenomenon, which has joined ghosting, Netflix and chill, breadcrumbing and other recent entries to the dating lexicon. It’s called orbiting.”
I’d probably call it cyberstalking, but whatever you call it, it’s a thing that afflicts modern daters who are tethered to their social media.
“The way it feels to be orbited depends on your relationship to the orbiter. When you’re interested in the satellite entity watching your social media activity, orbiting brings an endorphin rush, the feeling of being circled by someone you want to get closer to.
But when it’s bad, it’s bad. There’s the frustration of wondering why an ex would rather watch your life than be part of it. There’s the disappointment when someone who has been orbiting for some time never does get any closer. And there’s acceptance of the hard truth of all digital romance: Eventually, the relationship must be taken offline, or brought to an end.”
I’m an advocate for online dating but when relationships PRIMARILY take place in a virtual world, you’ve got a real problem. Liking photos on Instagram is not dating. Texting is not dating. Talking and seeing each other in person is dating. You should accept no substitute – no matter what everyone tells you about how things are different now.
Concludes the article:
“Regardless, it’s a fact that dating is confusing, and orbiting can make that worse. Small online behaviors are infinitely interpretable, making it impossible to understand where you and another person stand. The lurking of a potential connection makes you wonder whether they’ll ever materialize in person. And the orbiting ex only serves to keep you mired in a shadow version of the relationship, wondering, each time he or she views one of your Stories, what happened or what could have been.”
Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.
No Name To Give says
Using the block option will cure that quickly.
S. says
Fascinating. I’m not on social media, though I did just join LinkedIn for job search purposes. I’m hardly on, though. I do remember this sort of thing when online dating. All the lookyloos, as we called it back in the day. In the end, viewing or liking a photo doesn’t really mean anything. I only count when someone uses words to communicate with me. I learn a lot from people from what they choose to write or say.
People still use Snapchat? Seems so 2016 to me. 😉 I don’t use social media but I know what the platforms are.
I don’t get orbiting. From the article: “I felt the urge to send subliminal messages via my Instagram Stories, knowing that was the only way I could communicate with him,” she said.”
I could sound shocked but I’ve been there. I’m not on social media, but I have tried to send messages like this even though dating profiles. Posting photos to convey the message, ‘look at me, I’ve moved on!’ in case an ex is still looking. But generally, that meant I was 1) spending too much time in that account and online in general and 2) spending too much time thinking about that dude.
I don’t think it’s stalking because the person isn’t actually doing anything. If they are just viewing it could be that it appears in their feed and they simply aren’t bothered to delete the person. Liking is a bit more active, but it’s not actually doing anything, either. Like if in real life I walk by a guy (or a guy I went on a couple of dates with) and he eyes me in my dress. That’s it. He likes the dress. He likes to look. That’s it. He hasn’t actually done anything. I keep it moving. Online I’d do the same thing.
Breadcrumbing is way more confusing because the person actually does something and then stops. But I’m game to that now too so if they stop twice (for any reason), I’m out. I just don’t have time or brainspace to think about folks that do this stuff anymore. Clear communication is all I can really deal with at this time.
Emily, to says
S.,
Breadcrumbing, low-level orbiting, zombieing … it’s a variation of the same theme and a woman just needs to ignore men who do that. They just want attention. TTMO. Time to move on.
Yet Another Guy says
@S.
Have you ever extended a “like” to a guy in whom you are interested instead of sending a message? I received countless “likes” without receiving messages, and I am guilty of having extended “likes” without sending messages. The problem here is that the rules of engagement have not caught up with the medium.
Now, the problem with orbiting on non-dating sites is just weird. However, male orbiters are not a new phenomenon. They existed long before social media. They are the guys who hang around hoping that a woman will notice that they are a catch and make the first move, so that they do not have to face active rejection.
Nissa says
YAG,
Remember though that female ‘likes’ serve a very different purpose than male ‘likes’. Female likes are an indication that she would welcome contact or a message. They are a prompt for further action on the part of the guy that she has ‘liked’. It’s the equivalent of dropping a hanky. Male likes, I’m guessing, are a way for men to keep track of potential interests. Any contact resulting from that ‘like’, while an ego boost, is a LOT less likely to result in a relationship or in equal interest. It is a lot more likely to result in no response from the guy, lukewarm response, or a sexual only interest response.
Therefore, the rules of engagement remain the same, at least on dating sites. A ‘like’ on Facebook probably just means she likes cat memes.
No Name To Give says
YAG,
Except most women know that.
Yet Another Guy says
@Nissa
“Remember though that female ‘likes’ serve a very different purpose than male ‘likes’. Female likes are an indication that she would welcome contact or a message. They are a prompt for further action on the part of the guy that she has ‘liked’.”
Really? You do know that that view of “likes” is a sexist double standard? The same can be said for a man who extends a “like.” The “like” mechanism is not asymmetrical. Whether extended by a man or a woman, a “like” is an indication of interest. If women are not willing to follow their “likes” up with a message, they should not be surprised when the only men who reply to “likes” and do the heavy lifting are players/opportunists (i.e., those who are looking for easy sex). If a woman does not want to initiate, she should sit back and wait until a guy finds her interesting enough to initiate contact without being prompted, as that is more true indication of genuine interest. I am glad that my current girlfriend did not have this sexist view of “likes.”
Marika says
Why do guys befriend hot women they will never meet (way too hot, celebrities, live too far away etc) on social media? I briefly dated a guy, he sent me a FB friend request and before I accepted, I scrolled through his friend list. 90% of them were random hot chicks with filtered or staged photos he clearly wasn’t actual friends with. So I thought it was weird and didn’t accept his request. He ended up being a compulsive liar and we stopped dating. But…
Since then I’ve seen male friends etc scrolling through their feed and, again, lots of pics will be women in bikinis with duck faces. What’s the deal? Do they think if they like enough of the woman’s pics she might sleep with him?
Or is it just like watching porn? And it’s just fun to look?
Evan Marc Katz says
“Is it just like watching porn? And it’s just fun to look?”
Yes and yes. If you can understand this, you will have a lot more success with men than women who think that this is some sort of deviant and aberrant behavior.
MilkyMae says
If you take the time to write a creative and informative profile, “winks” and “likes” are kind of insulting. There’s a mismatch in effort.
ScottH says
@YAG #7
I’ve seen two profiles where woman have stated that they are women and therefore they will not pursue but if they send a “like,” that indicates they are receptive. Yes, they explicitly stated it that way. Dating is full of double standards. Why does this surprise you?
(Evan- do you know that when the “reply” button is clicked that nothing happens?)
Evan Marc Katz says
Hmm. Testing.
Marika says
Thanks for the response, Evan. Good to understand that!
PS Scott is right. If you try to ‘reply’ the text goes all weird and it doesn’t work.
S. says
@Emily, to
Zombieing? I don’t wanna know what that is!
@YAG
Have you ever extended a “like” to a guy in whom you are interested instead of sending a message?
Yes, but it usually went nowhere. If I wasn’t motivated by the profile enough to write a message as well, I wasn’t that interested. Some guys do have interesting costumes/photos, though. But again, there has to be something to actually write about.
And yep, some people are lookyloos. They just want to look. And yes, it’s like porn. There used to be peepshows back in the day. Now there are instagram photos, I suppose. Same instinct, updated medium. I don’t think either is deviant. Most people like visuals and are turned on by them. They may not even want more than that at the time.
Nissa says
Yep, my ‘reply’ button is not working either. No weird text, just does nothing when I click on it.
This ‘double standard’ is nothing new. It’s not a vile conspiracy to manipulate men. It’s not even that women don’t want to initiate. It’s that they have tried it and found it a resounding failure to achieve their goals. It’s a function of, as Jeremy said elsewhere, women’s unhappiness with their success with men when they initiate contact. They get something they don’t want – a mildly interested or mostly indifferent male contact, who is still probably mostly interested in sex – and almost always fail to get what they do want – a guy who is interested in them at an equal or greater level. That’s the reason for the failure to follow up with a message. It’s not a desire to ‘shift the work’. It’s that it creates a non desired result.
The reason that a woman does bother to ‘like’ men is that, sometimes men are just a little shy and need a bit of reassurance. In person, a woman would move closer to him so that he doesn’t have to be as vulnerable, cross the room and make his move in plain sight of his friends, risking having to slink back across the room as a failure if he is rejected. A like is equivalent to moving closer – the woman is making his overture easier and less of a risk, yet it is not considered an overture to the degree that it is received as masculine (as a message does, and in fact, is).
You might argue that “mature men don’t do that”. I’d say, most of us are not at our most mature when it comes to being vulnerable, especially with someone that we like.
A woman that wants to stay in the feminine would not be served by choosing masculine or chasing behaviors. After all, women are supposed to stay in their feminine energy, right? One could even go so far as to say, the male ‘like’ is a shit test. How far will this woman go to capture my interest? It’s just an electronic version of real life.
ScottH says
“It’s that they have tried it and found it a resounding failure to achieve their goals. It’s a function of, as Jeremy said elsewhere, women’s unhappiness with their success with men when they initiate contact. They get something they don’t want – a mildly interested or mostly indifferent male contact,”
This is exactly what happens to guys 99% of the time that we initiate contact. And on top of it, we have to shoulder the expense not to mention the fact that women are told not to initiate communication but only to reply when we initiate which confuses the shit out of me. This is what disinterested people do so how am I to distinguish between an interested person and a disinterested person when they act in almost the same way?
the reply button worked this time.
S. says
One other thing. I wasn’t always a paying member of a site so sometimes liking or winking is all you can do to show interest. Once a few people liked or replied back I’d pay up. Really after six months online I’d seen all the newest people and were down to the regulars. Some are still on there! Including a few I dated. At that point, I’d unsub again because I was down to folks that weren’t interested in me and/or vice versa unless I played around with age or distance to get different folks.
kris says
Ugh! Yes this resonates with me. My guy and I broke up because he wasn’t opening up emotionally. The relationship had stalled. He was aware of this too and was unsure why, so we split. But now, I see he continues to look at all variations of my social media. I don’t get it. I’m not one to post much but if I do, he’s seen it. I guess I feel…let him look, I’m still living my full life and he’s just missing out by not being a part of it 🙂
Marika says
S.
I’m not understanding your points regarding online sites? New people are always joining up. And why are you surprised they are still on there? Being online for months, years is nothing to be ashamed of. We go online, meet people, try dating someone, it doesn’t work out and we get back online. Rinse repeat. That’s dating. It’s actually quite brave to keep taking the hits and disappointments and getting back out there (or ‘on there’ !).
Quite a few guys have “I can’t see your likes as I’m not a full paying member” in their profiles. I get that they are trying to say they aren’t being rude for not liking back, but it also comes across as though they aren’t that serious and are a bit lazy.
Personally I think if you are online dating you have to take it seriously and commit to the process (including paying the subscription if there is one). Not sign up halfheartedly and only really commit to it if someone else takes the initiative for you. Or be surprised people aren’t finding love in 6 months.
Noone45 says
Eh, Evan might clock me, but I’m going to say it: I look down on men who have friend lists or instagram feeds filled up with bot models. You gotta be an idiot to not realize most of those photos are poached from the real user. These are generally phishing ops. I’m not anti-porn, but you’ve got to be a dolt to open yourself up to that kind of security risk. I don’t want to recall how many calls I’ve done were I’m fighting some horrid malware that went all the way to the root cause some dumbass clicked a link from a Russian spam bot on social media.
As for orbiting: I’ve experienced this, just block them. I also get random dudes that follow me on instagram oddly enough. Ignore it and keep on doing you.
Yet Another Guy says
@Nissa
“It’s not even that women don’t want to initiate. It’s that they have tried it and found it a resounding failure to achieve their goals. It’s a function of, as Jeremy said elsewhere, women’s unhappiness with their success with men when they initiate contact. They get something they don’t want – a mildly interested or mostly indifferent male contact, who is still probably mostly interested in sex – and almost always fail to get what they do want – a guy who is interested in them at an equal or greater level. That’s the reason for the failure to follow up with a message. It’s not a desire to ‘shift the work’. It’s that it creates a non desired result.”
You do know that that is yet another sexist response? Do you think guys always achieve the goals that they want when they initiate contact? Women can be luke warm about a man as well, but still go out with him as long as they can get something out of the deal. I can assure you that men get used when their interest in a woman is greater than the woman’s interest in them; otherwise, the manosphere would not exist. Rejection and less than equal interest is a two-way street. I am sick and tired of women complaining that they do not get the men they desire when they are not willing to risk active rejection. Rejection is part of the game. My current girlfriend initiated contact with me. She liked a photo I had up where I was playing lead guitar in a band when I was younger and wrote “I want to meet the guy in that photo.” It was enough to show interest in something other than my height, educational attainment level, income, or attractiveness level. It was targeted at a part of me that has been a part of me since my teenage years, a part of who I am at my core. Guess what? She is still with me seven months later whereas the women who made me do all of the heavy lifting because they played by the sexist script are history.
If a woman is genuine when she reaches out to a man and demonstrates interest in something that is unique about him, something he truly values, there is a high probability that she will receive a genuine response. However, if a woman is surface when she reaches out, her response is going to be like a box of chocolates. Do you know what my response was to my girlfriend? It was “If you like lead guitarists, I may be your man.” She replied, “That is the best response I have received on this site.” I did not attempt to blow smoke up her butt. I did not lay the charm on thick. She is four years my senior. Yet, she got my attention because she demonstrated interest in something other than my height/build, income level, educational attainment level, or any of the other nonsensical things women chase on dating sites when it comes to men. The moral of the story is that if you want a man, speak to his core, not his attributes. He will know that you are interested in him, not what he can provide. You will earn his respect and place you in a select group of women.
Marika says
ScottH
You’ve been writing variations of your same point up above (reply still not working for me) for years.
Mike gave a few ideas on another post (the one with the video and the shouting guy on the pic I think). Including organising free/very cheap dates for the first couple to gauge interest and get clues as to her character.
Nissa is extreme in her stepping back/feminine energy thing. Most women don’t love making the first move, but will definitely start to plan things, initiate texts/calls etc. at least sometimes as you get to know each other. Or at the very least warmly thank you for your efforts. If you’re finding women never do that, I would consider approaching different types of women!
I’m really getting over the endless whinging on here…both sexes do it…but Evan is giving out lots of useful info about mindset, tools, what is and isn’t reasonable.. and so many people just seem to want to use this blog to vent about their personal issues. Ugh!
ScottH says
Marika- Yes I have been whinging for years about mixed messages, double standards, and gross inequities in dating. Isn’t that why we all come here, to whing about those things?
Like YAG, the last woman I dated was unlike most of the rest of the women I’ve met. She was clear and consistent and did not play by a lot of the rules that most women play by. Before I got a chance to ask her to meet for a drink, she extended the invitation (yes, I felt like she beat me to the punch but I appreciated it). I specifically told her that I would like to meet for a drink after dinner but the day of the meeting she said that she would show up hungry. Yes, I was a bit pissed but didn’t show it. When the bill came, she said that she invited me and that she would pay. I took the bill and paid with a smile, all of it. As we were walking to her car, she suggested meeting again before I mentioned it. I’d say that she was acting in the masculine role but I don’t like to think of it that way. I just really appreciated that she didn’t play the usual bs games of sticking to gender roles specific to dating. It was really refreshing to deal with someone like that. And she didn’t hesitate to call or text first.
Contrast that with most of the other women who say that they would like to get together but cancel and apologize profusely and suggest another day but never respond. Mixed messages. Or those who expect you to polish the ground they walk on. Or those who unapologetically stuff their faces (or try to) on my dime in the name of chivalry and then label me as cheap when they refuse to pay. Yes, I have been whinging about those things for years. And yes, I plan free or low-cost dates whenever I can, which is not all the time living in a climate that is cold and dark half the year.
If you want to meet quality guys like me and YAG, you should take lessons from the women who catch us.
Lynx says
Marika:
I’m really getting over the endless whinging on here…both sexes do it…but Evan is giving out lots of useful info about mindset, tools, what is and isn’t reasonable…
I’m job searching and there are many parallels to dating — I wish there was an EMK-type blog for job hunters! In the same way I can’t change how men operate, I can’t change how prospective employers operate. To get a desired result, best to learn everything I can about them and modify my own behavior.
It does seem like a waste of time to continually lament how the opposite gender tends to approach dating/relationships. We can only change ourselves.
Emily, to says
S.,
“Zombieing? I don’t wanna know what that is!”
The person completely disappears, only to reappear. To come back to life, so to speak. To me, it all falls under the same umbrella — likes on a dating site, comments on Facebook page, flaccid flirtation (:)) — it’s all the same thing. Flim flam. I think you and I disagreed on this on another post, but, to me, unless someone is asking you out and following up afterward, none of it means anything. I don’t mean that in a negative way, but I used to take some of it seriously and learned to put it in perspective.
S. says
@ Emily, to #22
Ah, it’s like ghosting but a ghost never comes back. But that could lead to breadcrumbing too. None of it ever bodes well, honestly, whatever Halloween word we use.
lim flam. I think you and I disagreed on this on another post, but, to me, unless someone is asking you out and following up afterward, none of it means anything.
We may have disagreed before but if it was on this point I concede now to your total correctness. I think there just is so much of it and people are good people and make good excuses it seems harsh to just cut them off.
But you must. I have never had anything significant come out of any of these things except as you put it someone really asking me out and then we actually go out and the process continues.
S. says
@ Marika #17
I online dated for years and I was quite serious about it. I was giving a tiny paragraph of my experience that related to this post.
I did find, for me, it worked best to rotate sites and switch them up after several months. I had just found the local folks who were interested and I’d do six months on one, then a break (or actual dating someone) and then try six months on another one. It wasn’t effective, cost or otherwise, for me to stay on a single site for a year for the few people who signed up after the first few months. That’s my experience. Others may differ. Even when I (or they) would try with folks passed by earlier it never went anywhere because we had passed each other by for reasons.
I always would pay, but I usually would pay after I had reactivated my profile and gotten messages/likes that were waiting for me–or–I was ready to wade back in and had bookmarked several interesting profiles of people hat I wanted to e-mail. Or both. But for me after about four months, most people there had seen me and I had seen them and there weren’t new people in the ranges I’d selected. Sometimes I’d tweak the ranges but that didn’t work out because the folks were really far away or too young or something. I also am on a budget. It didn’t make sense for me to be on a site for so long with months of inactivity, even as I was reaching out and/or changing my profile periodically. Breaks worked for me. Financially and mentally.
I felt I was pretty serious when I was doing it. I stopped and it’s so much more restful for me. I actually meet about the same amount of men, just not for dating. What I like is I’m really getting to know in person what men are like. That’s really valuable to me and helps me understand male behavior in a less charged way since I’m not dating them. So I’m still socializing, meeting people, and doing my thing. I’m having fun and enjoying my life. 🙂 If someone else has an online dating strategy that they’re on for year and still getting activity consistently or not, but it still works for them, I’m happy for them. I never said there was any shame in it, just that it didn’t work that way for me.
As for the guys still on there? No shame in that either, but that’s when I’d get more orbiting. Guys on there who viewed but in the time that I’d already been through first dates, dated someone, broke up, and come back, and they were still just looking at my profile. (Maybe they were dating someone too, who knows). I’d eventually eliminate them from my searches. So they could still look but I wouldn’t know. Like I said above, I don’t think this is deviant or even unusual behavior. But I do find that there are a lot of men there in my age range that have been there for years and we kind of know each other’s behavior (lookyloos or not interested or dated and done) and have passed each other by. No shame in that, but I found it more effective for me to not focus on them but on the folks new to me or who reached out to me.
Emily, to says
S.,
I think there just is so much of it and people are good people and make good excuses it seems harsh to just cut them off. But you must. I have never had anything significant come out of any of these things except as you put it someone really asking me out and then we actually go out and the process continues.
It’s really easy to make excuses when it’s someone you like. That’s the problem. But, like you, I’ve never had anything significant come out of those types of situations. I don’t think it’s harsh at all to cut them off. I think it’s putting up a boundary. And, on some level, if it’s going on for a while — breadcrumbing, heavy flirtation with no date, etc. — it’s a game. And I won’t play it anymore. “Thank you, drive thru.” 🙂
SparklingEmerald says
ScottH said 20.1 (not sure if reply button is working)”If you want to meet quality guys like me and YAG, you should take lessons from the women who catch us.”
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha SERIOUSLY, YAG is a “quality guy ” ? If anything, his postings are a PSA to us ladies on the type of men to avoid. If the picture he posted is an indication of his looks, he is good looking, I’ll give him that, but “quality “? He states that sex is what validates men, states that casual sex cheapens women AND he criticises women who don’t have sex outside of relationships as “weaponizing” sex. So apparently, he thinks women should validate men by having sex with them NSA while simultaneoulsy degrading themselves. Sorry, not sorry, but anyone who uses sex to build themselves up by tearing others down is not “quality” in my book, no matter how good looking and/or rich they are.
I have my own quality guy. I didn’t have to “weaponize” sex or use it as a bargaining chip. He asked me to be his girlfriend, no prompting from me, BEFORE we had sex. He also didn’t dig around in my past life to find something to use against me, and I didn’t dig around in his commitment history to see how long before he proposed to his ex-wife, nor did I contact any of his past wives/girlfriends when we got engaged to compare engagement rings to be sure that I got the earliest proposal and the shiniest ring.
Emily, to says
Scott H,
I specifically told her that I would like to meet for a drink after dinner but the day of the meeting she said that she would show up hungry. Yes, I was a bit pissed but didn’t show it. When the bill came, she said that she invited me and that she would pay. I took the bill and paid with a smile, all of it.
But isn’t that on you? You should have let her pay. It’s not fair to be mad at her because you paid and didn’t want to. How’s she supposed to know that ticked you off? Especially if you were smiling! If you want to meet quality guys like me and YAG, you should take lessons from the women who catch us.
Oh boy
Noquay says
As I am in the process of trying to sell out here and relocate to the other end of the continent, I’m off of on line for now. When I had a sub to Match and a few others, and actually found someone seemingly compatible, I’d write a complimentary line or two, then let it go. I do have a Faceplant account as I write for a closed blog and FP is the only way to follow MMIW and pipeline issues. I’m a Water Protector and most Native issues are ignored by mainstream media.
Not sure if an ex that I have not friended can follow what I write on non closed forums but I don’t care. When I found out the latest was cheating, I went immediate NC; the end. I write or post nothing inappropriate (unless you’re a fossil fuel lover, racist, or a conservative), discuss nothing about rships unless it’s in a closed group, and there’s nothing new you are going to find out by orbiting. Ol Noquay is a far left native rights/environmental activist and professional scientist who also runs ultras and grows food. If you’d dated or worked with me, you’d know this already. Read away. My Faceplant pic is my dog, Bella. I do get a good many “friend” requests from men I do not know. If they have no connection to a known person, I ignore them. I don’t give a rats about “likes” from strangers. Means nothing. A real relationship isn’t one til it is.
Mike says
Well, I am coming to see that on here that there is a larger amount of complaining about “gender roles” than I had originally expected. I am not sure how helpful that is. At the end of the day, we guys on here have to realize that this is a site for women whose goal is to find a life partner, NOT to write our perceived wrongs and do what we feel would make dating easier or fairer on our gender.
Yes our gender has to take on a disproportionate amount of risk for rejection. BUT, we don’t get pregnant either. It is what it is.
My experience OLD is that by the time communication is taken to off the site, MOST women–say 70%–are willing to meet up. Then again, I make a point of calling them and having a good conversation–usually about 45 minutes in length–and I am a “good” texter. And sure, I have met women who are flakey/have an “entitlement” mentality of thinking that dating is them getting wined and dined while they get to sit back and evaluate. I have learned to screen those women out with *inexpensive* dates. [The flakes, well by not showing, screen *themselves* out.]
S. says
@ Scott H. #27
Why didn’t you just let her pay? She offered. I never offered when I wasn’t ready to pay. And I never minded paying. The only time I minded if I had suggested a cheaper place or different food and the guy insisted on picking on the place and then insisted on me paying. I don’t mind paying, but I’d like to have a say in what I eat.
One guy picked a spicy place that I couldn’t even eat a 1/3 of the food. I paid for my food and he took the leftovers because I couldn’t eat them. It wasn’t an expensive place at all, I was just a little hungry after that date. It would have been nice to have a say in the cuisine if I’m paying is all.
Emily, to says
Mike,
Please stay on this site. We need a male perspective and you don’t have a Madonna/whore complex, aren’t blaming women, don’t need women but resent them for it, aren’t telling them how they should act/date ….
SparklingEmerald says
Emily to at 27 “Scott H,
I specifically told her that I would like to meet for a drink after dinner but the day of the meeting she said that she would show up hungry. Yes, I was a bit pissed but didn’t show it. When the bill came, she said that she invited me and that she would pay. I took the bill and paid with a smile, all of it.
But isn’t that on you? You should have let her pay. It’s not fair to be mad at her because you paid and didn’t want to. How’s she supposed to know that ticked you off? Especially if you were smiling! If you want to meet quality guys like me and YAG, you should take lessons from the women who catch us.
Oh boy”
Actually, I interpreted his post as being angry when she said she would show up hungry, but genuinely pleased when said she would pick up the bill. Which is why he picked it up with a smile, because she was WILLING to pay for it. Scott, amirite ?
Sometime it is not the money, but the sense of entitlement. Once I got over my fear of men being pissed if I offered to pay (a hold over from my early adult years, when men REALLY did want to pay, and considered it insulting if the woman offered) I started offering to pay either my half, leave the tip, or an after dinner coffee or ice cream somewhere else. In every case, the men refused my offer, but seemed genuinely appreciative that I at least offered. Once my hubby and I were established as a couple, he was still resistant to me paying (he said it was “cute” that I wanted to, but no) so I had to use stealth methods. Comp tickets that I got through work and my theater network were OK, but as for me paying out of my own wallet, he resisted. I had to resort to buying tickets on line. By stealth. I would ask him if he wanted to attend such and such a music venue, comedy show, etc, but not give him enough information to buy tickets online. Then when he confirmed, yes was willing to go, I would go online and buy tickets. We’ve been together over 4 years now, so paying back and forth happens organically and without resistance on his part.
S. says
@Mike 29
Yes our gender has to take on a disproportionate amount of risk for rejection. BUT, we don’t get pregnant either. It is what it is.
It certainly is. 🙂
I think your suggestion of inexpensive dates at first sounds wise. I don’t know why people aren’t listening to it. I’ve suggested it myself to dates for the first dates and they don’t listen, either. I don’t understand. Then they might be mad about the money they spent if things don’t work out. If I’m willing to pay, let me pay.
Emily, to says
Sparkling Emerald,
Sometime it is not the money, but the sense of entitlement. Once I got over my fear of men being pissed if I offered to pay (a hold over from my early adult years, when men REALLY did want to pay, and considered it insulting if the woman offered) I started offering to pay either my half, leave the tip, or an after dinner coffee or ice cream somewhere else.
And I agree with everything you’ve written. I would be turned off by a sense of entitlement, too. I do the same thing you do. Offer to pay for my half. If the man says no, I offer to leave the tip or pay for drinks afterward. I think what’s more important to a lot of women than the man paying … is the man leading. He asks out, he calls to confirm, he has something in mind to do. It’s the difference between “Here’s my number if you want to hang out” and “I’d like to take you out. What’s your number so I can give you a call?” It’s a win win for men because a lot of women are turned on by masculine energy. Passive energy is lady boner crusher. 🙂
But ScottH was writing about mixed messages. And is there no bigger mixed message than paying for a date and smiling while doing it but secretly resenting it and thinking she should pay? Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying.
SparklingEmerald says
Emily to said “And is there no bigger mixed message than paying for a date and smiling while doing it but secretly resenting it and thinking she should pay? Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying.”
I interpreted it a bit differently, but only Scott know for sure what he meant.
Nissa says
ScottH,
How are you to distinguish between an interested person and a disinterested person when they act in almost the same way? By spending time with them, having fun, then noticing if you enjoy their company and how they treat you. It takes time for people (both genders) to reveal their true selves. If you feel they don’t treat you well or you aren’t having fun, stop seeing her.
Marika says
Hi Scott
Still can’t reply for some reason 🙁
Can I let you into a little secret? People suck at dating. Men, women, probably gender fluid bisexuals. Everywhere. Suck, suck, suck. Evan will retire a rich coach.
Complaining about it is like complaining that winter is cold.
I don’t get all rigidly stuck in gender roles. I’m also happy to take on board the advice of guys like Jeremy, Karl R, Mike etc who clearly don’t hate women, have empathy, are kind to their partners, balanced in their comments and most importantly, solutions-focused.
The other little secret I mentioned before which the guys seemed to have missed is that women are very turned off by men whinging. If you care to learn about women, please take that on board. It’s incredibly unattractive to us.
Things aren’t working out? Get Finding The One Online, write in a letter to Evan, flip his advice to women around, take on board what he says to guys who get stuck endlessly on how women should be, should do etc etc etc. Insert one of many other options here. Also, I think you need to accept that often you will have to initiate. Not because it’s right or it should be that way. It will just get you the most dates and options. It’s in your best interest to do so.
Nissa says
YAG,
Your girlfriend reached out…and matched with you, someone who prefers a woman that takes on the role of pursuer. If that’s what makes her happy, terrific. However, if it’s not what she wants in a relationship, then it’s a bait and switch and counterproductive. And there’s no reason a woman who prefers men who take a more masculine, proactive role, can’t also be appreciative of his core, unique qualities when he calls her or takes her on a date.
Nissa says
It’s so funny to me that people find the idea of “women think all they have to do is show up” insulting. When I was married, I would often think to myself how happy it made me when my husband did nothing other than walk into the room and share his presence with me. Just having him by my side lifted my spirits, comforted me and brought me peace.
Perhaps that is what the orbiting is about, too. Don’t most people put up pictures of things that make them happy? Dogs, trees, beautiful people?
ScottH says
@SE #32 (reply not working)
“But isn’t that on you? You should have let her pay. It’s not fair to be mad at her because you paid and didn’t want to. How’s she supposed to know that ticked you off?”
You are absolutely right! I resolved within myself that if I did not discuss a grievance that I had no right to be mad or hold a grudge. This particular person was very polite and kind and sensitive to the paying issue and as a result, i didn’t mind taking the whole bill. But she was somewhat unusual. Not all, but a lot of women I’ve taken out seem to feel entitled to order without restraint or sensitivity, making me feel like an ATM, and I absolutely hate that. I’ve talked to other guys who feel similarly and I’ve heard about guys who exit the dating pool because it’s too expensive. One guy sensed her entitlement attitude and refused to pay for all of her drinks and she started yelling at him about chivalry. I’ve never gone that far.
I can remember being with other women and the money would be flying out of my wallet and I’d be wondering when they might at least make an offer. I am of good but not of unlimited means so I am sensitive to it and continuously paying can become fatiguing, as has been discussed here many times. My way of dealing with it is when she offers to pay, I will suggest that she pay next time. With the woman mentioned above, that is what happened. With most, that never happened. And yes, I do suggest walks in the park and happy hours when it works. My favorite and most successful dates are at a very classy and free park.
And for me, it is not the rejection that stings, it is the expected disproportionate workload for the guys that bother me. I’m almost immune to rejection these days but initiating, planning, paying, etc. can be a lot of work. Now,,, I don’t mind doing those things if she makes it easy for me and that is what I look for in a partner. Actually what I look for in a partner is partnership and not feeling like I need to entertain her at a certain expected level or standard. A friend of mine said it very succinctly: it is his job to pursue and lead but it is her job to make it clear that it is safe to do so and to make it easy to do so. I subscribe to that and when that happens, I do not mind initiating, planning, and paying most of the time.
Marika says
S
All fair enough. Sorry, I think I misunderstood your first post. Love the word Lookyloo btw. Every time you write it I giggle. I’m the type of naive idealist who has gotten caught up with Lookyloos/Textyloos for months. Now I’ll have to remind myself *LL/TL alert. Danger, danger* 😉
Lynx
Yes! The people who come here specifically to tell the opposite sex – Do this. For me. Now.
Really?
And why exactly? And who are you again?…
I’m all for understanding men. But it’s a losing strategy to come on here and tell women (/men) how to be whilst completely blind to your own shortcomings and with no clue as to how you’re coming across (angry/whingy/narcissistic/jealous).
Sharing experiences, getting advice, brain storming strategies, laughing over the usual suspects in dating, are great (we’ve all come across the flake, the golddigger, the texting phantom, the ghost, the orbiter). But the Poor Me’s. Or It’s Everyone Else’s Fault’s? Annoying AF. And you can easily figure out why dating might not be going well for them. Not that they are interested in solutions about how they could change strategy or mindset.
Marika says
Nissa
I think when you write what you write it reminds guys of the women they dated who didn’t lift a finger or a wallet. Like when some of the guys write about just wanting sex – it can conjure up bad memories for us of guys like that. I can see where they’re coming from.
Granted, you don’t whinge. You seem to be okay with being single if you can’t find someone as masculine- energy as you need. So your preferences are your business. But I can definitely understand why your comments are rubbing men the wrong way. It makes it sound like your very presence is their reward. And while I can see you aren’t entitled, it sounds entitled. And reminds them of women who are.
Emily, to says
ScottH,
How are you to distinguish between an interested person and a disinterested person when they act in almost the same way?
Tom10 had a post on this. I’m probably forgetting some of it, but …
1.) Is she responding to your texts/calls quickly? (no more than 12 hours)
2.) Is she accepting dates or counter proposing a time/date if she cant’ go? Are the dates at regular intervals? (meaning you don’t go on one date and then she puts you off for another 3 weeks for a second but your time spent together is regular and increasing over the weeks)
3.) Is she taking initiative after the first few dates in terms of communication, suggestions to do things and offers to pay?
4.) Are things progressing physically? I don’t mean you’re diving into bed but something should be happening.
ezamuzed says
Marika
Can I let you into a little secret? People suck at dating. Men, women, probably gender fluid bisexuals. Everywhere. Suck, suck, suck. Evan will retire a rich coach.
People suck at dating because they attach an outcome to dating. When people just take a step back and try to enjoying meeting new people, listening to their stories and just having fun it becomes easier.
Complaining about it is like complaining that winter is cold.
IMO the most unhappy people are those who have a need to be victims. They just site around and complaining about everything and everyone else instead of trying to change themselves for the better.
Emily, to says
Scott H,
How are you to distinguish between an interested person and a disinterested person when they act in almost the same way?
Also,I can tell when a man is or is not interested just by watching his behavior and I don’t mean just that he calls again and asks me out. I went out with one guy once who I could tell wasn’t interested. We went to dinner and a movie. It was only 9:30 after both were over and he didn’t suggest doing anything else. Also, when he walked me to my car, he made a point of putting physical distance between us. I stood at the driver door while he was standing by the front wheels. I’m certainly not always right but sometimes the signs are right in front of you.
In another instance, two guys I used to work with and had chatted with asked me out … by having someone else do it. Wouldn’t that be because they probably already knew the answer? I was pleasant when they talked to me but not flirtatious, not encouraging, not extending the conversation because I was trying not to give them the wrong impression.
S. says
@ Marika #41
Textyloos! LOL. We are coining new dating phrases! I don’t text (I know!) but I do succumb to the emailloos because I love the written word. Interesting that I’ve found a lot of mutual attraction through e-mails. Not just the words, but the frequency and depth of response. Those usually led to great dates! Some of the e-mailloos didn’t, though. In hindsight, I will admit those were more a matter of quantity and frequency of e-mails, than quality of e-mail. It’s surprising because sometimes it led to awesome dates and sometimes it led to . . . nothing. But better than a lookyloo. 😉 More of a chance of going somewhere.
I still think I let that stuff go on too long and have to watch it even now. Actions matter more than anything else honestly. Then . . . I did like more of passive person because those folks were just a bit less pressure and it gave me more space to feel comfortable with the guy. But that didn’t mean I really knew him that well. Just made me more comfortable to flirt and stuff.
Marika says
ezamuzed
I think detaching from the outcome, as difficult as it is, is a good skill to try to master.
Also not taking it all so personally.
Some people share their stories on here with this sense of outrage like they’re the only ones who’ve ever been on a bad date. Then they tell the daters ‘sin’ and I shrug like, really, that’s it?
I once had a date turn up drunk, disheveled and 20 mins late. Oh and he texted me on the way to the date asking if I brought clothes to spend the night (first date!). We had mutual friends so I had to be nice to him and sit through a couple of drinks. I’m pretty sure he drove there too. Another guy flew interstate to both meet me and spend time with his Dad (his choice). Nice gesture so I offered to pick him up at the airport. He had zero conversational skills in person. I drove 30 mins both ways, after around an hour in a nice pub with me paying my own way and desperately trying to make enough conversation for both of us, he gets a phone call, gets all weird, tells me his friend is coming to meet him and he’ll walk me to my car. Umm okay..? Never heard from him again. (He was probably married).
Is any of that stuff personal against me? Nope. My only learning experience from those dates is to have better boundaries. I shouldn’t be giving people like that the time of day. But I do and that’s me and they’ll continue to be ridiculous daters. That’s life. I could write a book But I can’t change the whole male population into Marika-friendly daters.
Emily, to says
Marika and S.,
“I still think I let that stuff go on too long and have to watch it even now.”
I was reading on another dating advice site that if a guy is heavily flirting with you/communicating with you — whether in person at, for example, the gym or through email or text — and hasn’t asked you out and moved it forward in about 2 weeks, it’s time to move on. I think that’s a good rule of thumb. I can’t tell you how many times a man has heavily flirted with me, only to find out 6 weeks later he’s married.
Jenn says
I don’t allow any guys I date access to my online profiles other than dating sites. If they ask why, or ask to friend or follow me, I tell them I don’t post on Facebook or Instagram, I don’t have a Twitter, Snapchat or Whatsapp, and I don’t Skype chat. I give them my Google voice number so they can’t Google me from my real one. The only way they can get in touch with me is by text, and even then I don’t answer idle chitchat. I only respond to date requests. I don’t have time for any of that stuff and that way, the time wasters weed themselves out pretty fast. So the tech stuff really doesn’t bother me much! It’s so much more peaceful that way.
No Name To Give says
Noone45,
I’ve noticed the bot/scammer accounts have been really uh active on Instagram recently. You’re right, best to just block and move on. I get the orbiting phenomena – for those accounts that aren’t fake – is like looking at porn. Ok, go ahead and look at someone other than me, ergo the block.
Marika says
Emilyyyyyy
I think guidelines are fine, but only applicable to some. Some people need them to stop giving every flake and his dog the benefit of the doubt. But some people hold onto guidelines like they are hard & fast rules. I’ve learned that by reading some of the nonsense on this blog. The 10 commandments of dating. Punishable by death.
Lynx says
Ezamused
People suck at dating because they attach an outcome to dating. When people just take a step back and try to enjoying meeting new people, listening to their stories and just having fun it becomes easier.
I think detaching from the outcome, as difficult as it is, is a good skill to try to master.
I wonder if mixing up terminology would help? As in, maybe don’t think of it as “dating”, but as “meeting new people”? At least the first time you get together in person, anyway. Now that I think of it, my now-boyfriend called it a “meet”, not a “date”, which took the pressure off.
I recently did this in the job search world. I loathe networking, but it’s a necessary evil. As I forced myself to do it, I realized it’s the word I dislike — it sounds calculating and insincere and selfish and slimy. So I switched to thinking of it as “connecting”, and found it far easier and more fun.
Semantics, I know, but it might help some people.
Emily, to says
Marika,
I think guidelines are fine, but only applicable to some. Some people need them to stop giving every flake and his dog the benefit of the doubt. But some people hold onto guidelines like they are hard & fast rules. I’ve learned that by reading some of the nonsense on this blog. The 10 commandments of dating. Punishable by death.
I was watching a Matthew Hussey video on youtube (Lawd, that man has good hair 🙂 ) and he talks about people you meet who maybe get your number but flake or keep making excuses to get together. What you do is shift them into low investment because that’s what they are giving you. However, low investment doesn’t mean bad energy. So you don’t text back if they’re giving you obvious excuses not to meet up: “Great story, bro. Have a a good life.” Instead: “It’s all good. Have a good week.” 🙂 So you’re not an asshole but you’re not investing and you’re moving on to other options. Because, as he said, winners don’t wait. (I love that.) At some point, if that person wants to step up and make more investment in you, you might do the same but not until that point. And I’d say if they do invest more in the future but then start flaking again, you’ve given them, as you always write, the benefit of the doubt and they obviously can’t be consistent.
sylvana says
Evan,
“Yes and yes. If you can understand this, you will have a lot more success with men than women who think that this is some sort of deviant and aberrant behavior.”
The women who consider this deviant and aberrant behavior, as well as the women who understand this, but don’t feel like tolerating this, or simply find it pathetic would hardly call it a success to land men like this. Success only matters if its in something that you actually want.
Sure, every woman can be successful with men if she simply tolerates everything about him she doesn’t like. Successful does not equal happy.
How does a woman build any sort of intimacy with a man who spends more time every day drooling over other women (whether through porn, pictures, or social media), than he does looking at her? In addition to all the ones on TV and in everyday life? All that diversion of attention leaves very little left for her.
You seem to think women are complaining about an every-now-and-then situation. But that is no longer the case. It’s an every day, all throughout the day occurrence.
Evan Marc Katz says
Then don’t tolerate it. Nuance matters. The idea that every guy who indulges in porn for masturbation is an addict is as silly as suggesting everyone who drinks socially is an alcoholic. Don’t waste my comments section with straw man arguments; you’re too smart for that.
sylvana says
Sparkling Emerald,
“(a hold over from my early adult years, when men REALLY did want to pay, and considered it insulting if the woman offered)”
I remember those days. That’s what it was like back when I dated. It was actually considered insulting for a woman to offer to pay.
sylvana says
ScottH,
“but initiating, planning, paying, etc. can be a lot of work.”
This is where I get totally confused with this modern dating scene. All that effort is something you make when you want to take a person you know you would like a relationship with out on a “date date” to see if you can make it happen.
With other words, a date that actually means something.
Why would you go through all that trouble for a casual hang-out (the modern version of date) that serves as nothing more than a) to see if you can talk her into bed, or b) seeing if there even is anything about that person that you might like enough to consider taking them on an actual date that means something.
Simply take her to a park (or something similar) that serves as something for you guys to do and makes getting to know each other secondary. Pick a few spots that would work around where you live, then keep using them. No planning needed, no money needed.
It also serves the purpose that you’re not treating a casual meeting like a “date” that actually means anything. So the woman won’t get the wrong impression.
sylvana says
Marika,
To me, it just seems like Nissa takes dating a bit more serious. And expects men to be a bit more serious about it if they want to date her.
Rather than going on a never-ending string of casual meetings disguised as a date.
I don’t see the purpose of putting date efforts or pressures into casual meetings either.
sylvana says
And could someone please explain to this old and technology challenged person how in the world you would even know if someone “orbits” you online?
I mean, even if they friend or follow you (or however that works), how do you know that they’re actually paying any attention to any of the stuff you post?
And a lot of stuff you can view without even having a profile yourself.
Emily, to says
Sylvana,
The women who consider this deviant and aberrant behavior, as well as the women who understand this, but don’t feel like tolerating this, or simply find it pathetic would hardly call it a success to land men like this. Success only matters if its in something that you actually want.
I agree that “liking” 30 women’s profiles isn’t so much deviant as it is kind of pathetic. At least porn is a means to an end. It serves a purpose. But “liking” women you have no intention of meeting or would probably not have the guts to talk to in real life or have no chance with. Why bother?
And for a woman who receives the likes or the “i like your instagram pics” comments … it doesn’t mean anything. The attention is so lightweight, it floats off into the ether.
ScottH says
@Sylvana #57
“To me, it just seems like Nissa takes dating a bit more serious. And expects men to be a bit more serious about it if they want to date her.”
How serious do you think a guy should be about dating a woman he hasn’t yet met and doesn’t know and doesn’t even know if she still looks like her pictures?
Marika says
sylvana
I think when it comes to dating and relationships, you live in the world of ‘should be’, rather than ‘is’.
No judgement, I’m a bit of a ‘should’er myself.
But because I’m actively dating, I know what to expect.
First dates often start as strangers from the Internet. You don’t know each other. Regardless, some women expect the man to organize and pay for a fancy dinner. Men don’t want to do that (over and over) for someone they may never see again. Some women don’t care about the money, but want to at least feel a little special and like the guy has some get-up-and-go. Guys like Scott are a bit tired and sick of dealing with the entitled ones and probably organize dates through gritted teeth or at times say ‘F this, she can organize it’. Neither of which is effective. Equally, expecting a fancy dinner because you got your hair done is also ineffective. As is never reaching for the bill.
What I find bizarre and where I’m a should er is if you’re on this blog, you can get help /advice etc on how to navigate all of this. Why people just think this is a place to whinge about how unfair it all is, is beyond me. Sure, we all get defeated at times, but I don’t have a lot of patience for people who write the same complaint over and over and take no action to improve their situation.
Dating has always been hard (just read a Jane Austin novel). The Internet has made it both easier and harder. But it’s never been easy or without confusion or pain.
Noone45 says
NNTG:
“I’ve noticed the bot/scammer accounts have been really uh active on Instagram recently. You’re right, best to just block and move on. I get the orbiting phenomena – for those accounts that aren’t fake – is like looking at porn. Ok, go ahead and look at someone other than me, ergo the block.”
People don’t block enough. Perhaps I’m petty, but I’m happy to block people. You act up, I’m blocking you. Hell, I’ve blocked most of the commenters on local news pages on Facebook. My latest hobby is a youtube channel I started where I review trashy kindle unlimited romance novels. An MRA wandered in there for some inexplicable reason – blocked. Too many people feel they have to tolerate things because “freedom of speech”. Lol no. That applies to the government, I don’t have to put up with that crap.
Honestly, this orbiting shit stems from people being too weakwilled to end something. The men are too afraid to say they aren’t interested in fear of “hurting” someone, the women are aware of it but won’t cut it off in fear of looking like the villain. All of this stems from caring too damn much what other people are thinking. This is an oversimplification of orbiting, but in my experience, it seems to be the root of the problem. Another facet is people often orbit to keep that “option” on the table.
In the end, you get what you’ll put up with. If people don’t like orbiting, they should start kicking people out of their circle and put an end to that behavior. Start blocking people. You should have at least 25 people on your block list lol.
Marika says
Noone
You do get the irony of what you’re saying given the type of comments you repeatedly write on here?….
sylvana says
Marika,
Yes, I guess I am a “should be”er.
If it is just a casual first meeting, a man should set it up as such. He can let her know ahead of time that he prefers a more casual meeting.
If she demands more, he doesn’t need to complain about giving in to it. Simply dismiss the woman as not suitable, and move on.
sylvana says
ScottH,
Don’t date her. Meet her somewhere casually. That was my whole point.
Don’t put yourself under all the pressure to organize an actual date for a casual meeting. If she expects and demands more, that’s on her, not you. Dismiss her and move on to the next.
She’s obviously not the kind of woman you want. And you would likely not be the kind of man she wants. And it helps you to weed out those women who truly just take advantage of men, and those who simply feel entitled.
Some women only feel like going on a date if the man feels like there is something special about her. And that’s her way of determining that. You’ll have had a few conversations (or more) before the date to find out if you guys actually click really well, or if there is something about her that makes you actually want to make an effort.
If she’s just one of many you can see yourself doing, there’s really not much reason to meet. She’s not a casual dater, and doesn’t have interest in going on a date with a casual dater. Get to know her a bit more before you ask her out. And you can always mention that you prefer meeting in a more casual way first before you ask someone on a date. If she doesn’t like that, once again, that’s on her, not you. You did tell her that when you ask a woman on a date, it has a bit more meaning.
That being said, if you actually do make the effort to get to know her better, then decide to ask her out based on that, and she shows up looking nothing like her picture, I’m all for blunt honesty. Tell her straight up that you’re not feeling it, and cancel the date. She deceived you, and there’s absolutely not reason for you to go through with a date at that point.
It all boils down to you setting limits for yourself. You can always decide that you don’t casually date, either. And that you prefer to meet women casually before you go on a date. Plenty of women have no problem with that. Including the ones who take dates a bit more serious, because it makes things perfectly clear and honest.
And you’ll end up easily weeding out those who feel entitled or take advantage of men.
As I said, I find it mind-boggling that you would actually consider taking someone on an actual date that you haven’t even met or seen in person yet. If it’s casual, keep it casual.
Yet Another Guy says
@sylvana
“Some women only feel like going on a date if the man feels like there is something special about her.”
In my humble opinion, any women who needs to feel that a guy finds something about her special before meeting in person needs to find another way to meet men. I would never expect a woman to find something about me special before we actually met in person. Online dating is the largest box of chocolates on the planet. There is nothing wrong with taking a reserved, low-investment, wait and see approach. It is better to be surprised than disappointed. I would suspect that a woman who went into a first online date believing that the guy found something about her special would be hurt when he calls for the check after the first drink, or worse goes to the restroom before ordering the first drink and never comes back.
Marika says
Hi sylvana
You said: If it is just a casual first meeting, a man should set it up as such. He can let her know ahead of time that he prefers a more casual meeting.
He can do that, but it would need to be something like “hey I’d love to grab a drink or two after work on Wednesday if you’re free? Say 8 o’clock smiley face”. If someone were to explain the ins and outs of why they prefer casual after dinner…blah blah…it would come across defensive or a bit rude. Guys often have this weird line in their profile, at least in my neck of the woods, about the first date being somewhere you can both easily escape. Yuck!
There’s an art to online dating. You definitely shouldn’t assume a stranger online thinks you’re amazing, and it would be very safe to assume he’s chatting to multiple women, but you also want to try to stand out from the pack. Requesting a phone call first, for instance. Men can stand out by following Evan’s advice around chivalry and confidence. But beyond that, it would lead to a LOT of disappointment if you placed any higher expectations on the meeting.
And that is modern dating. I’m not sure your distinction between dating and casual meetings still applies. At least online.
Nissa says
@ScottH,
How serious do you think a guy should be about dating a woman he hasn’t yet met and doesn’t know and doesn’t even know if she still looks like her pictures?
That’s easy – serious enough to meet, see if I look like my picture and get to know me a little. This is very, very simple. If he wants to date me to see if I match what he wants, he has the opportunity to date me by doing very low effort things – emailing me once or twice to get my number, calling to hear my voice and ask me whatever he thinks is pertinent, and if he still thinks it’s a match, to ask me on a date (preferably a no cost or low cost, short date). At every step of the process, he gets to evaluate things to verify his needs and wants are being met. He can opt out at any point.
Another way to think about what Sylvana said is to characterize me as someone who knows what she wants and anticipates men knowing what they want also. After all, if I’m not what they want, they just skip over my profile – no harm, no foul. But if a man DOES select my profile and DOES contact me, I’m assuming it’s because he sees the potential for getting what he wants. If he doesn’t follow up, it might be because life happened, he changed his mind or he just went on an email spree at 3am one night and woke up with regrets. I’m relying on the man to tell me what he wants. My job is to tell him if I am or am not willing to provide it.
Of course, a woman should do her best to be a good date, giving him her full attention, helping him to feel admired, respected and appreciated. These are givens. If she fails to do that, her date very reasonably won’t set up another date.
But because men and women are different, having a woman initiate rather than respond OFTEN fails to make a man feel any of the above. This is the primary reason for not having a woman take the initiative. It might make him feel less vulnerable in the short term, or more wanted, but it will not make him like her more. If the behavior does not result in the man’s feeling admired, rewarded and appreciated, it’s counterproductive – FOR HIM. In fact, he is more likely to wonder why she is trying so hard, if she is desperate or “like this with every guy”, and like her LESS. Whereas if he approaches her, and has limited success, he is motivated to pursue more, since he got some of what he wanted – both a reward and validation. The woman’s job is to show him she IS interested, wants to know him better and to say yes to his requests. This automatically gives him the power to shape the dates in a way that gives him what he wants and needs. The man taking the initiative has the greatest likelihood of getting him what he wants. It’s a man-positive approach.
sylvana says
Marika, YAG
“And that is modern dating. I’m not sure your distinction between dating and casual meetings still applies. At least online.”
Which brings us back to ScottH’s problem. If we do not make a distinction between the two, it leaves the man going through all the trouble and financial investment of an actual date for a casual meeting. So some sort of distinction does need to be made, because that isn’t right.
That being said, I think it’s up to him to make the distinction. And to simply weed out those who won’t agree.
What do you think about this, YAG?
Do you think a man should plan a special dinner, etc. for a casual date/meeting? Is that what you do?
Do men still plan dates in the old-fashioned sense, but simply expect the woman to pay as well because it’s a casual meeting?
That all seems way too confusing and complicated to me. And completely explains all the frustration and misunderstandings around it.
Why can’t people just clearly state their intentions, and make a causal meeting something casual, and a date a date?
Yet Another Guy says
@sylvana
“What do you think about this, YAG?”
I took me about a year to realize that I needed to keep things as simple as possible. As I grew more experienced with online dating, I avoided any type of first meet from which I could not escape. I always selected venues where there was not a second door from which to exit the venue, so I could make an escape if necessary. For example, If I told a woman that I was meeting her for a drink at 7:30pm and she immediately ordered dinner, I excused myself, went to the restroom, and never returned. Sadly, that kind of escape was common until I pushed the meeting time up until 8:30pm and made it clear in my profile that I never do dinner on a first meet.
Adrian says
Hi Yet Another Guy,
You said, “I avoided any type of first meet from which I could not escape… I excused myself, went to the restroom, and never returned.”
I’m asking this sincerely, “Why do you think women consider you such a catch?”
I’m assuming you are being honest with the number of women who chase you online.
You say you always have hot, successful, intelligent, in shape, younger (well older than me but younger than you anyway) women wanting to date you but you turn them down.
Marika says
sylvana
I’m honestly unsure why you’re still confused. Online, in the very early stages a ‘date’ and a ‘casual meeting’ are the same thing. In that you’re meeting an almost stranger from the internet and it could be an hour if it goes badly or all night if it goes well. Evan gives advice as to how to try to make it go as well as possible, but there are no guarantees.
You can agree, or one party can plan, for it to be as low-key or fancy as you like. If the guy wants dinner and that seems a bit much, you can suggest drinks. Or vice versa. Maybe one person will suggest a walk in the park. It varies. Where I’m from drinks in a bar is most common.
No one announces: “btw just so we’re clear, this is a casual meeting not a date!”. Human interactions aren’t like that. So, yes, from time to confusion about how long /formal/ who’s paying occurs. But this is life. You roll with it. I certainly offer in some way to pay (reach for my bag, or ‘oh…would you like..’) and then gratefully and graciously thank them if they say no. I think it’s a little different in America but these are just normal social situations we all need to navigate.
Guys aren’t made of money, fair enough, so like I said, as did YAG, they can make it drinks at 8.30 on a Wednesday or a free concert or whatever to ensure they aren’t paying through the nose.
YAG, you know sites have complaint options. If someone went to the ‘bathroom’ and never came back, I’d report them. Far better to come back & say you’ve paid the bill for drinks, they just need to settle up for dinner and thank you, all the best, take care (and before you lecture me, I do the equivalent of that myself and briefly tolerate some dodgy stuff, because lying & leaving a date like that is despicable) – What goes around comes around. I had a guy date a friend and treat her badly. Unbeknownst to me I dated him 6 months later. When I made the connection I told him I couldn’t see him anymore and explained his behaviour to my friend was the reason. He tried to explain and asked for a second chance blah blah. To this day he’s still trying to contact me.