The Blind Spot In Rori Raye’s Circular Dating
- Becoming Exclusive, Dating
If you saw a woman who was about to drive off a cliff, would you tell her?
You’re standing on the sidewalk. She’s plowing over orange cones and through the yellow police tape towards a towering precipice.
Yeah, you’d try to stop her.
And the faster she accelerates, the more frantic you get, watching her willingly (and confusingly) speed towards the chasm.
I’m even gonna bet that if you were witnessing something so damaging, you might even put yourself in harm’s way to protect the innocent drivers. Maybe you wouldn’t dive in front of the car, but you’d run and wave your hands and scream at the top of your lungs — anything to avert what is sure to be a serious accident.
This is what it felt like to be featured on my friend Rori Raye’s blog last week, in a post entitled “The Circular Dating Argument”.
I went there to save some lives — and took quite a beating for doing so.
First of all, I need to establish that Rori’s a good friend and I have no doubt that all the women who read her are kind people. Over the past few years, Rori’s products have taken off like a rocket, inspiring a legion of passionate followers. Any time I’d like to think that I’m making a big impact on the world over here, I remember that Rori’s mailing list dwarfs mine.
Which is why I’m always flattered when Rori reaches out to tell me she enjoyed one of my newsletters or wants to mention me in a blog post.
And after an interview I did with her last week for her audio series, we engaged in an email dialogue about one of her signature concepts: Circular Dating.
The definition on her site is benign: “Dating several men (at least 3) all at the same time. You accept the date with the man who calls first, and do not shuffle times or even think about manipulating the schedule in order to get dates with the man you like best, or dates to the most fun places. Circular dating is about Free Therapy and practicing Rori Raye Tools. It is not about finding Mr. Right.”
Nothing to argue with here. What Rori calls Circular Dating, I just call “dating”. Be proactive, date lots of people, have fun, don’t get too excited about a promising prospect — we’re all on the same page so far.
Where this concept of Circular Dating breaks down for me, however — the reason I wanted to guest blog on her website — is this idea:
The concept of circular dating (CDing) is ostensibly supposed to last all the way up until you’re married. Meaning: a woman can tell her devoted boyfriend of a year that since she doesn’t yet have a ring, she’s going to see other people.
You hear that sound? It’s a record scratching.
Yes, there’s something highly discordant about this principle, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head for nearly a week.
Believe me, I understand the emotion behind Circular Dating. All you have to do is read this blog to know that I am intimately familiar with the frustrations and fears of women. And because way too many women have invested way too much time in men who decided that they didn’t want to get married, CDing is, presumably, a way of protecting oneself.
My argument against circular dating has nothing to do with a failure to understand women’s needs, a defense of selfish commitmentphobes, or a personal axe to grind against Rori or her readers. My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.
My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.
If you have a boyfriend who is consistent and kind and also wants to be married one day, and you tell him, in a moment of insecurity, that you can’t stand waiting any longer — “it’s been seven months and we’re not engaged, so I’m going to start seeing other men” — you’re essentially taking a dagger to the heart of your relationship. And if you have a boyfriend who isn’t consistent, isn’t kind, and never wants to be married, there’s no need to “circular date”. Just dump him and find the man who treats you well and ultimately wants a commitment. And yes, it is that simple.
The friction here comes from women who want to KNOW that their investment in a man is going to lead to marriage. The problem is that you CAN’T know. All you can know is whether he’s a man of high character, a man who has spoken of a future, a man whose heart is in the right place. Beyond that, there are no guarantees.
No one wants to feel insecure and off-balance. No one wants to waste time on a dead-end relationship. But just because a man isn’t positive he wants to marry you doesn’t mean you break the bonds of exclusivity. If I’m your boyfriend and you start seeing other men, you are essentially cheating on me, and it doesn’t make me feel better about you, our relationship, or our future together.
That’s pretty much the gist of what I said to Rori’s readers. I used metaphors, anecdotes, capital letters, and wrote the way I normally do on here — blunt, powerful, and very confident that what I wrote has a sound basis in truth.
Not my opinion. Truth. About how men think. Good men. The men you want.
If you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away.
And try though I might, I can’t think of too many confident men who feel that their exclusive girlfriend has a right to date other men after 6 months, 12 months or 18 months, merely because she’s insecure that he might not marry her. She can certainly dump him (which is a good strategy when you’re getting past three years of dating.) But seeing other guys while you’re boyfriend/girlfriend doesn’t sit well with me. I speak for most men and remain firm in this sentiment. (By the way, if there are any guys here who are cool with your girlfriend dating other guys as a way of protecting herself and forcing you to shit or get off the pot, please speak up. I’m open to being wrong here.)
Predictably, then came the blowback.
I won’t go into details but I was told in a number of ways that I was wrong. That I was arrogant. That I don’t understand women. That I was verbally abusive. That my marriage was suspect. That my wife was a doormat. And so on and so forth.
I tried, in vain, to reiterate my point of view — which is that I’m offering a constructive, not destructive, criticism of circular dating. I don’t stand to gain anything from “being right” in this situation. But if you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away. And that’s dangerous if you believe that this is solid advice that considers how men think. It is not. It doesn’t consider how men think. It’s advice that may make women feel better, but doesn’t do what it’s designed to do. Which is why I felt like the guy standing on the side of the road, waving his arms, determined not to let any women go over the cliff with this well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, take on how to get a man to commit.
Naturally, I got run over in the process. C’est la vie. At least I tried. But since I still believe my take on the male mindset is equally valuable as any woman’s take on it, I wanted to respond to the main areas in which Rori’s readers falsely dissected and misinterpreted my argument:
He should know if he wants to marry me. No, actually, he should not. That’s why men date. To figure out, over the course of time, if he wants to spend the next 35 years with you. And that’s exactly what you should be doing with him, as well. Nobody told you to invest three years of your life in a man who has stated that he never wants to get married. Definitely not me. But if you have a boyfriend who wants to get married one day, but he’s not sure if it’s to you, your best bet is to give him lots of time to figure it out before proposing. If you’re under 40, we’re talking at least two years. Over 40, at least a year. But trying to make him figure out the answer to something that he couldn’t possibly know is a recipe for a breakup. Men don’t respond well to being told what to do. As Dr. Pat Allen said: “If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.” I’m not stating whether this is fair or not; I’m merely stating that it’s true.
Some men just know after 3 months, therefore all men should know that fast. Actually, anyone who claims to “just know” that it’s “right” after one week, one month, or three months has a very selective memory. I “just knew” that my girlfriend in 2003 was right for me. She dumped me after 6 months. Same with the one in 2004, who dumped me after 3 months. So much for “just knowing”. Look back at your history. You have a similar story.
The right man knows right away. You might have a strong chemistry and a great feeling about a guy, but lifetime relationships take years to forge, not months. Lots of marriages began with the man knowing right away. And a majority of those marriages ended in divorce. Be careful about rushing into things: you very well could marry the wrong man – where if you dated him for two years, you would have learned more about him and potentially averted a mistake.
A man who is right for you would not risk losing you to another man while he makes up his mind. Au contraire: the right man is a responsible decision-maker. And a responsible decision-maker doesn’t make the decision to marry a woman until he knows her for a really long time and can see how she handles life situations. He may rightfully determine that if his exclusive girlfriend handles her insecurity by insisting that she “circular date”, he could find a healthier relationship without all the drama, fear, and insecurity.
Playing it cool is denying my true feelings. We don’t have to live our lives as mere victims of our feelings. After all, just because you feel something doesn’t necessarily make it true. I had one girlfriend who nearly had a heart attack every time I picked up a Maxim magazine. She may have been entitled to her feelings, but her insecurity that I couldn’t be attracted to her if I was also attracted to a model ended up destroying our relationship. Even her own therapist told her that I was a normal guy and that she should temper her jealous overreactions. So while I’ll never tell you that you’re not entitled to feel what you feel, if what you feel (anxiety, fear, insecurity) becomes your boyfriend’s problem — when he hasn’t done anything wrong — it’s really on you to deal in a healthier fashion.
I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first. If you think that he should marry you because you’ve been together for three months and you love him, then he should have also proposed to about a dozen women he dated for three months before you. Right?
I should be allowed to CD ‘til my wedding day because I don’t want just “a boyfriend”. No one is asserting that you should be content to be merely a girlfriend forever. All I’m saying is that if you’re with a man who believes in marriage, you have to allow him to come to his own conclusions over time. And if you think you’re restricting your options by being faithful, then, by all means, circular date. You’ll just end up losing your boyfriend when you do.
A man who doesn’t marry you is selfish. A man who knowingly strings you along for three years when he has no intention of ever marrying you IS selfish. I’m not talking about that guy. I’m talking about men who do want to get married, but aren’t positive if they want to marry YOU. If I didn’t marry my wife after 16 months of dating, it wouldn’t mean that I knowingly used her for that time. It simply meant that I was trying on the relationship for size to see if it fit for the rest of my life and decided it wasn’t a good fit. MOST relationships break up because either the man or the woman comes to this conclusion. Yet MOST people end up getting married one day. This seems to conclude that most men are marriage minded; they might not necessarily want to marry you, though.
Your way gives men all the power, Evan. By letting men take their time to decide if they want to get married, women are relegated to become the selectee and not the selector. Not remotely true. Who said he has the power? Aren’t you 50% of the relationship? Aren’t you thinking clearly about his flaws and whether you can live with them for the rest of your life? Don’t you have the right to break up with him at any point if you conclude that he’s a good guy, but not your soulmate? Why, yes you can! Which means that BOTH parties are taking an equal risk when committing to each other without a ring — not just you.
CDing gives me my power back over a hot-and-cold man. Maybe it does. But I have a slightly different take on this. A) Don’t date other men. Dump him. Walk away with your head held high and say, “I really care about you, but I’m not getting my needs met here. This is too inconsistent for me and I need to feel safe. Good luck.” And don’t look back. THAT’s how you handle the hot and cold guy. If he comes running back, you may have a boyfriend. If he lets you go, he’s not the guy for you. B) Do you really WANT a guy who is so hot and cold, who leaves you walking on eggshells? Do you really want to be in that relationship for 35 years, where he’s so selfish or such a poor communicator that you never know where you stand? If so, then do everything in your power to get him back — including CDing. But the smart money – given that people rarely change – is on dumping him.
Why should one man monopolize my time? I want to explore all my options. I’m still having trouble fathoming this: the woman ostensibly wants a husband but doesn’t want a boyfriend because she should be out playing the field. Um, I hate to tell you, but the only guy who’s ever going to propose to you is the guy who has been your exclusive boyfriend for a year-plus. And if you refuse to stop exploring your options, no guy worth his salt is gonna stick around. This is the epitome of false female empowerment. You’re not keeping your options open if you’re dating other guys outside of your boyfriend: you’re cheating.
Why should I spend 5-10 years with a man without a ring? Beats the hell out of me. Everything I’ve ever written tells you to leave a guy who a) never wants to get married or b) doesn’t propose to you in a reasonable amount of time.
Which is a great opportunity for me to distinguish between a man’s reasonable amount of time and a woman’s reasonable amount of time…
It terrifies me to potentially spend 2 years with a man without a ring. How am I supposed to know which is which? I can completely empathize with your fear. Millions of relationships have endured for far too long, even though they were dead ends. Especially when they’re dead ends. Once you’ve sunk enough time into anything, it’s hard to walk away, even if the relationship isn’t right. So my contention isn’t that it’s easy to be in a relationship when there’s no guarantee of a happy ending. It’s difficult and scary and insecure and all those other feelings you associate with being in limbo. My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love. At the very least, it’s far superior to being fearful and insecure, to the point that you break up with a marriage-oriented man after four months because he can’t guarantee you a ring.
Once again, I’m not basing this on my personal feelings about this. I’m basing this on common principles of human behavior: the way things ARE instead of how we WANT them to be.
My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love.
Sure, it’s scary to be with a guy for 24 months and not have a ring. But the only way you GET the ring is by investing 24 months and being the kind of woman that he can’t imagine living without. If you start to make waves about how nervous you are after three months, six months, one year, etc… you’re putting a lot of pressure on the man before HE’S ready to make his decision.
And that’s the one thing that the Rori followers almost universally did NOT seem to get — that 50% of the relationship is about what HE wants. I know Rori’s message is about female empowerment, having confidence, etc. But if you’re tone deaf to your partner’s needs, you’re going to find yourself without a partner.
Same as the guy who tries too hard to get laid on the first date.
Same as the guy who thinks it’s fair that you pick up the check because you wrote to him online and make more money.
Same as the guy who never wants to hear about your day and only wants to talk about his…
This may or may not be a bad guy — but his refusal to understand your needs means that he will probably alienate you and lose the prospect of dating you.
And just because YOU want him to know that he wants to marry you within eight months doesn’t mean that HE’s going to know.
Case in point: I have five close friends who have gotten married in the past three years.
We are all college educated, literate, six-figure earners. We are readers, we are sports fans, and we dream of having families. We’re very comfortable around women, yet none of us would be termed an “alpha male”. We’re nice Jewish boys.
Every single one of these men — all GREAT catches — waited 3 years before proposing. Three of them even have older wives — 40, 41 years old — just like I do.
Why did it take so long?
Because they take marriage very seriously.
Because they didn’t want to make a huge mistake.
Because they really wanted to be POSITIVE before buying a diamond ring.
And if dating for two years, moving in together, and proposing when they felt it was right meant that the men felt confident going into their marriage, it seems to me that all five women who did it “my way” by playing it cool ended up WINNING.
They got married. They got the guys they wanted.
By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.
However, the ONLY way that all of us got married was because our girlfriends DIDN’T start dating other men when we were together.
If they DID start dating other men when we were together, the relationships would have been undermined — and, likely, destroyed. CDing wouldn’t make me feel closer to my wife. It wouldn’t make me feel like like I was losing my soulmate. It would make me feel like I’m losing someone who has no respect for my timetable, and is making a threat that is completely tone-deaf to my needs.
By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.
So even though the idea behind Rori’s Circular Dating is to establish self-love and healthy boundaries, dating other men when you have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend is simply NOT EFFECTIVE. And if you don’t have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend, I submit that you should break up with him. Who knows? Maybe that’s the only difference between Rori and me.
Taken to its extreme — which is what I’m talking about here – Circular Dating is a fear-based mechanism to protect women from commitmentphobes — yet it will alienate any man who is rightfully wants to take his time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with you.
To sum up, you should date around all you want until you have a boyfriend.
But once you have a boyfriend, the ONLY way to make it a healthy relationship is to TRUST. Your fears about wasting time only indicate that you believe that he is not a good enough man to want what is best for both of you.
You know the only guy among my friends who got engaged before 3 years? Me.
Of course, that’s because I’m a sensitive guy who spends every waking second listening to women’s needs and the last thing I wanted to do was waste my wife’s biological clock on my inner turmoil. After proposing to her in 16 months (half the time of my friends’ courtships, twice as long as most Rori fans seem to think it should take), I still wasn’t “positive”. But since I’d dated hundreds of women, and coached thousands more, I figured I was making a highly informed decision about my future. It turned out to be the right one and we’re the happiest couple we know.
Yet if a man had a marriage go bust, has been burned by relationships before, or has very little experience with women, so that he doesn’t really know WHAT he’s looking for, it will take him a LONG TIME to figure out if he wants to marry you.
I implore you, from the bottom of my heart, to allot him that time.
He’s a good man. He doesn’t want to hurt you. He just wants to be sure.
Playing it cool certainly doesn’t guarantee marriage, but it DOES maximize your chance of marriage.
And, as a dating coach for women, that’s really what I’m here for — to help you make good, informed decisions that will be effective in landing the man of your dreams.
Whether you’ve been reading me for a long time, or if you’re a Rori fan who just came over here for the first time today, I hope that my intentions are clear:
I’m YOUR advocate. I speak on YOUR behalf, not on behalf of men.
But just like a man can’t have a successful relationship if he’s ignoring your needs, you can’t have a successful relationship and ignore what your man is thinking.
I hope you’ll highly consider this respectful rebuttal from an informed male perspective and we can all go back to finding love once again.
Warmest wishes,
Evan
AS says
OMG – I am a woman and I can whole heartedly say Evan you are RIGHT!!!! How can you go off and date another man whilst you are in a relationship – note not just casual dating – because he has not put a ring on your finger in X months! What a load of (i’m so sorry to say) rubbish! Wonder how many of these women that are CDing have even had a healthy relationship? If they are in a relationship that is not giving them what they want, then clearly they should just break up with that person and find someone new.
Relationships take time to grow and you can’t expect to be married overnight. So I would like to share my personal analogy with you and other readers:
A plant cannot grow overnight from a seed, it has to be nurtured and go through a natural cycle of growth. If you’re overzealous and water it too much, eventually the plant will drown. Conversely, if you’re too laid back and forget to water it, through neglect the plant will dwindle away. The key is to strike a balance together with the natural growth cycle and you will yield a plant from a seed…
Ambi says
I love your analogy! With my ex of over 33 years, I dated up until the alter. I did not sleep with anyone else, but I did not cut myself off either. I didn’t advertise that I was still dating, and that was because ” we ” hadn’t come to the decision of being a couple.
I am now divorced and dating again. I’m in a relationship with one man and have seen him since the end of Jan. We haven’t discussed whether or not we are a couple. It has been four months. I am not sleeping with anyone else, but again go dancing and flirt with men. I also go to a gym where there are men. I don’t seek out men, they seek me out.
I’m not looking to jump into a marriage , for it takes time to get to know someone. Now if he says he wants to be exclusive, I would only date him. I would still go to my gym, and I’d still go to my dances. If he would take lessons or come to dances with me, all the better. But I’m not going to stop the things that are good and healthy for me, to be exclusive to one man. I’m 53 and don’t want to rush any relationship.
I believe there is a happy medium. If the person I’m seeing isn’t giving me what I need. I’ll ask for it. If they still can’t then it’s time to move on.
Blue says
Bravo, Evan, Bravo.
Get ready for the tar and feathers. You are still being discussed.
There is no way that I would risk the potential marriage to the love of my life by CD-ing. Dating yes, in the early stages, after I am in an exclusive bf/gf relationship? Not a snow balls chance in hell. I prefer to be the cool girl. And, I always have options, I can leave if necessary but I always have options.
I feel sorry about the beating you took over there. I feel you were highly disrespected.
Leslie says
I wonder how these women, who advocate CD’ing as a good way to establish a lasting marriage (an idea so out there and illogical that I won’t even go into that) would feel if a man said “If you don’t learn to like sexual act Y and Z in X amount of months, I’d going to start dating other people”. There would be an outrage! However, when women perform the same type of manipulation in the spirit of ‘female empowerment’ it’s completely normal and healthy. Right.. Female empowerment is about having equal access to finances, jobs, and decision making politicians, not going back and forth trying to force the other sex to be weaker.
Gem says
True woman empowerment is setting a reasonable timeline and walking away when your needs aren’t being met and you feel strongly that they never will be met (some women allow themselves to strung along for years and years).
But the suggestion to start dating others while still dating the guy you supposedly want to marry is insulting to the woman and to the man. It’s a manipulation plain and simple.
Besides, any new man she’s dating is just being used to strong arm her boyfriend. There’s no integrity in a choice like that.
RoseGrey says
I feel horrified by the accusations that were levelled against you, Evan, on Rori Raye’s blog recently. Even as a woman, I can appreciate that men are human beings too. Men have feelings too. The kind of good man that I want to meet would be looking for faithfulness in his partner before the engagement/marriage stage, just as I would be with him. The kind of good man I want to meet would not be thrilled to hear his woman announce that she is going to activel date other men until he proposes. It might sound and feel like a passive-aggressive rejection or break-up to him.
And how would he know that this pattern of seeing other men would suddenly stop upon the production of a diamond ring? Why should he commit to an unfaithful woman (even though she says she’s only meeting them for coffee, not sleeping with them)? Marriages break up over this kind of thing. And I fear that exclusive relationships with a view to marriage would too. Rori’s blog claims that faced with this information, a real man who is really interested would step up his efforts to win the woman. I fear that a man who is offering trust and faithfulness, and looking for that kind of stability in a partner as well, would turn and walk away.
The original context of Rori’s idea about this was that, after her then live-in boyfriend decided he did not want to go through with a planned marriage proposal. That is – he was clearly saying that he was not wanting to progress to engagement at that point. Many women would re-evaluate their options at that point, and consider ending or changing the relationship. Rori’s response was, “in that case, you can’t have me all to yourself.” Context is everything. Context creates meaning.
M says
It’s funny, I’ve been on your site, EMK, for a few years now. I visited and read Rori’s stuff as well and her idea of CDing is where I fell off.
How could you possibly be sure you want to marry someone if you don’t know them intimately? You can only get to know someone intimately when there is a level of trust and vulnerability that I would not give to a man that was dating several other women, so I think it safe to assume he would not give it to me, either, if I was dating several men.
I would not be ok with a man dating several women at 8 months in, how could I expect him to be ok with that from me? That seems to me the epitome of selfishness, IMHO.
I do know that I have been reading and participating in your blogs through 3 relationships, each one better than the last. The first was terrible and why I sought a relationship site out, which helped me leave that relationship and find a better one. That second relationship ended, yes, but it was a good loving relationship, just not my soul mate. My current relationship is more amazing than I ever could have imagined possible. This progression came from following your advice. I don’t know if this guy is “the one,” but I believe I will know in time and if he isn’t I am confident that is only because there is someone better for me (if that’s possible) out there that I have not yet found.
I honestly believe in the advice you give and think it contributed to my confidence and positive outlook on relationships, even the ones that end. I don’t think advising women to remain unavailable is the way to convince a man that he wants to marry them…again, IMHO, as a woman.
Foolingmyself says
OH boy, I had red Rori’s blogs for quite a while. I considered using her advise after 3 1/2 years of a LDR not moving forward. I was giving all my time, love and devotion to a man who was not doing as he said. He told me early on, within 6 months, that he wanted a future with ME. Yet, he talked the talk, he wasn’t walking the walk. We are not young, I in my mid 40’s now (was only 39 when we met), and he in his mid 50’s now. Yet, we still sit states apart, with nothing set for any forward motion, only talk. I do love him, and I believe he loves me, but there comes a time when a decision must be made. I have been battling what decision I must make for my future happiness (and quite frankly my current happiness). If 5 years ago, I thought I would be in the same relationship, still in different states, I would have opted out years ago. But what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it? I don’t want to break up with him, yet I am sick of sitting idle while waiting for him to decide where and how things are going to go forward. Sigh….
(DUMP HIM! – Evan)
Jackie says
“But what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it? I don’t want to break up with him, yet I am sick of sitting idle while waiting for him to decide where and how things are going to go forward.”
It is clear that you already have your answer but I understand if the answer isn’t exactly what you like to hear let alone accept. As hard as it is but you have to be strong and trust your gut on this one. If it doesn’t feel right then it probably is. MOVE ON…It is better to end your relationship now rather than to prolong your agony by wasting your next 5 or even 10 years wherein you could have spend those times for more important things and people in your life.
Nicole says
Evan is a very, very brave man to repeatedly stick his head into that hen house. I’d never seen that blog but wow. I feel like I should get a drink and a bag of popcorn to read all of it.
What is interesting is how they aren’t paying attention at all to his philosophy and are just picking and choosing things to attack.
I mean, he’s written here and there that if someone is wasting years of your life, clearly move on. But 6 months isn’t a long time, and yes, even if you are older you need to be patient.
And there seems to be disagreement over there about what circular dating is…some sound like they are dating lots of people as they move towards exclusivity, and others are using it to manipulate.
I think that people are also forgetting that sometimes you can get so caught up in “winning” that you don’t notice that what you are fighting for is basically a turd. The best man won’t have to be manipulated into giving you something that he’s not sure he wants to give. And just b/c he gives it to you doesn’t mean it will last, esp. if he got strong armed into the decision.
But part of the problem is that people will play games and if they get the “prize” they’ll tell themselves and everyone else that it’s the best way to do it.
I will say I appreciate the viewpoint b/c even if I feel a mess inside, I at least don’t let it show and make these mistakes that pretty much guarantee failure.
Janet says
Nicole, I love it! Evan is a wise man (and brave for tackling these particular hens), but you have nailed the “winning at any cost” mentality we women sometimes have. Fighting over a “turd” indeed. Been there!
M says
@Foolingmyself-
Dump him. It’s hard, yes, but it will be harder another year in, and another… This man has shown you his intentions. He is not meeting your needs. Someone will. Go find him. You deserve that.
Good luck, I know it’s easier said than done, but believe in yourself and give yourself that much worth to go find what you deserve. 🙂
martine robertson says
I did read and buy Rori’s material for some time. The circular dating issue was always a struggle: for all the reasons outlined by you and the readers of this blog; and because its actually a nightmare trying to find a date in the first place (I am an attractive, fit engaged with life, and funny 60 year old).
I waited 8 years using Rori and counselling to shore me up in what was a relationship with a deeply narcissistic man. I am sadly quite damaged now, and not quite sure how I got into such a situation.
I really hope that I will be in a healthy relationship again, my best supporter is another man with whom I was in a relationship for 26 years, so I know I am OK.
But where to find sympatico men…that is the challenge.
Marvin B says
Great post Evan.
I must say, I took a look over at Rori’s blog to see the discussion that was going on and I must say that I totally shared your sentiment and have tried to explain the many points that you have revealed here today to many women who feel that they’ll “keep their options open” because they don’t want to feel stupid for investing so much time for it to only go pear shape and have to listen to their friends who may say “I told you so.”
In my personal experience, I have always wanted to date a woman for at least 12 months before I even evaluate whether there will be any potential for a longer term commitment beyond a couple years.
i do hope your female readers, which it seems like a few have already 🙂 grasp the the concepts of what you’re saying about CDing with a boyfriend because you have revealed a lot of truths about how men think and behave in these situations.
If a woman isn’t comfortable, then she should exercise her 50% of the deal and end the relationship but only because her needs aren’t met and not to make seem like an ultimatum because as you say…a real man isn’t going to listen to that and will let her leave and look for a woman with less drama, neediness and haste.
Marvin
Janet says
When I read about Circular Dating some years ago after my divorce and subsequent breakup, I thought it was a revolutionary idea. I even wrote a blog about it! I’m so glad that Evan and a few others have spotlighted the problems with CD’ing in the interim–Rori Raye’s system works great for taking your focus off an emotionally unavailable ex- who you can’t stop thinking about but I’m glad Evan has made it clear it’s not a cure-all especially if you have a loving and attentive boyfriend. Why would you want to hurt him trying to force a marriage proposal by dating around? You wouldn’t. It’s a no-brainer.
Caroline says
I think this is such an important point Janet! I think that’s the missing piece and the bridge.
Rori has a lot of experience working with abused women. For anyone coming from that direction, you need to build some power know-how AND you’ll have unhealthy patterns around what you tolerate (through no fault of your own, because being treated badly became a normalised experience). Even if in your head you know the behaviour isn’t o.k. you’re still deeply wired to accept it and so moving on can feel emotionally impossibe.
Her CD approach can help someone transition away from unhealthy relationships. I could see it working really well for women who are -in essence- still accepting a relationship that just isn’t right for them. They’re not being treated well, and CD gives them a half-way out, something that is more possible to do for them than just dump the guy. And hopefully, it will help them get to a point where, they can just dump the guy and not accept anyone like that the next time around… and then CD is no longer needed. And by that point, they’re in the domain of the good guys, so they don’t need CD and using CD would be incredibly disrespectful and perhaps even abusive. That would be the abused becoming the abuser 🙁 .
I do think part of making that switch to good guy territory possible involves learning real emotional healing skills though. At some point, you need to be able to work through and be with your own old hurts and insecurities. A distraction strategy of putting all your focus on something (or someone) else doesn’t solve the problem.
Fawn says
Evan, well done! I am 50 and have been dating my boyfriend for a year and a half now. He was coming off a twelve year marriage when we met and I knew he needed time to heal. I knew this because a few years earlier, I had left a 12 year marriage and the last thing I wanted to do at the time was get married again. It’s been about four years since then. I can honestly say he is BY FAR the best guy I have ever known or dated. He never lets me forget how special he thinks I am or how right we are for each other. Our relationship feels organic, and you know what – I trust him. I trust that he wants to be with me and I trust that when the time is right he will marry me. He is worth the wait. Ladies, take it from someone whose been there. Don’t try to rush the guy. Take your time to get to know him so you know it’s right. I wish I had done that before I got married the first time – I might have avoided a lot of heartache.
m says
Evry relationship is diff. Love ea other meet
ea others neeeeds. When the guy wants marriage its the best. Lke evan sz be cool be the best gf be yourself. Sme guys lke drama dnt create drama be loving peaceful to ur bf.
🙂
Gem says
Foolingmyself,
“what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it?”
That’s the rub. It’s very difficult and emotionally confusing and scary to move on when we focus on what we’ve put into a relationship -the time invested and so on. If you use your investment as a reason to stay, you will. Instead focus on what you’ve learned these years, how you’ve grown, what you want and what you deserve.
Decide for yourself where and how things are going to go…
I know a gal who was strung along for 7 years, finally got a ring and sits there waiting for the wedding 4 years later. That’s 11 years. Everytime she thinks of leaving, she thinks of all those years invested and if she leaves, wasted. But every year she stays with this man is a year she’s not with the right one who does right by her. Even though she stays, she’s not happy or content or fulfilled.
SS says
My thoughts on investing…
If I was a stockbroker and stayed with the same losing stock for years (while other stocks were remaining steady or going up), I would be out of a job. Especially if my mindset was, “But I’ve already invested so many years in this one stock, so I can’t give up now! It was so promising when I first put my money into it!”
MsMM says
Great analogy!
NN says
What is this marriage thing you are talking about? Why is it so important?
The thing is, that most people I know as couples, live with one and other for years.. sure some get married, some separate, some divorce, some may live together for 20 years..as living together is the main way here in Scandinavia… and about half of people have a child/ children that way too – and it is totally normal.
A lot of people get married after getting pregnant, but a lot of people don’t – having children out of wedlock while living together is not frowned upon, as marriage is to a lot of people just an institution that qualifies the widow half of the inheritance if the spouse dies – child gets its legal share anyway, so no big difference there.
The circular dating thing.. Well, the men I know.. if their partner would date elsewhere that way, they would walk out of relationship – it is considered cheating the trust even if there is nothing else there. Women here consider that cheating too, as it is a break in the commitment to the relationship.
Dawn Allen says
Bravo, Evan! And I know how difficult this experience must have been for you to go through. As a dating and relationship coach myself, I love what Rori stands for (empowering women) but I have promoted your book to my ezine list in the past because I think you bring such a very enlightening viewpoint about men for women to be aware of.
I also am an advocate of Pat Allen’s work and I wholeheartedly agree with you… a good man would struggle with his steady girlfriend giving him a deadline for a ring only to then go out and start dating other men.
In my personal experience, the really great man I’m with would have been out the door if I had told them I was going to start dating other men after we were in a relationship, simply because he hadn’t decided yet if he was ready to get married.
In addition, as a woman, isn’t it a whole lot more fun to have the experience of being asked to be married by a man when it’s completely his own idea? Not because we’re pushing him into it? Letting him come to the conclusion on his own that he doesn’t want to spend the rest of his life without you?
I don’t want my clients in go-nowhere relationships either, nor do I advocate staying with a man who runs hot and cold. But I agree with you wholeheartedly that the answer is just to dump him and move on.
I advise following my favorite Oprah saying, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them… the first time.”
I will continue to promote your book and your information to my list, Evan. And I think Rori is doing some great work in the world helping women, but I agree with you completely about every point you made in your post and I applaud you for the courage it took to stand up and speak your truth, in spite of the undeserved backlash.
Good relationships, engagements and marriages are worth waiting for… and good men are worth waiting for as well. And it’s worth letting them be the man and decide when they’re ready for a lifetime commitment to the woman of their dreams 🙂
Blessings and much love,
Dawn
Carrie says
Haahahhahhahhhahha CDing???? That is the craziest thing I have heard in the dating world! Thank you Evan for taking the heat on that…but really…this shouldn’t even be a topic. CDing….whatever…..hope it works out for those who
are willing to try it. Then will come a big “I told ya so”!
Carrie
Margo says
I agree with Evan. Once I commit to a relationship with a man who has told me that he’s interested in marriage and having a family, I’m not going to date other men (i.e. cheat on him) to get him to propose faster. If I were a woman over 40 who wanted kids, I wouldn’t wait 3 years for a proposal. However, Evan did specify that caveat for women in that situation. Good job, Evan!
Theresa H says
I also follow Rori’s blog / newsletter and have learnt alot of good attitudes / techniques (lean back / modern siren etc etc.) but I must admit the ‘circular dating’ has always been the concept I have a real problem with. Aside from the emotional energy involved in dating a number of people for a length of time…once you like a guy, and he clearly likes you…it seems like such a sad waste to spend precious time with someone else. Also…can I mention the physical aspect? if I’m at the stage where I’m sleeping with someone I really dont want them or me dating anyone else.
Ellen says
I have received emails from Rori, and you for several years…and I find her advice to be directly opposite from yours…..She seems to be asking women to “act” this way or that way…..buy her book and find my inner siren. . . . .Use tricks as it were to attract and keep a man…..and Circular Dating sounds like the most manipulative behavior that I can imagine…..So, hang in there, keep telling us how men feel, and act and think, and stick to your guns…..I believe you are the real thing.
Liane says
Hi Evan! I have enjoyed your writing for a long time now but have never commented – but this time I had to say something. After reading your post this I went to Rori’s website and can’t believe that so many people think that is a good idea! Sadly I think the reason those women are single is expressed by their attitudes in the comments. Anyway, just wanted to say I hope you aren’t bothered by it! Any normal person would think dating others up until the time you are engaged (or making getting engaged after 6 months a requirement) is insane. So don’t let it get you down 🙂
Maeve says
My first impression after reading Rory’s blog post was that it sounded a lot like dating for folks with a very fearful-avoidant attachment style. I think the mindset leads to the dating style and there’s little anyone can do to argue with it; it would be like arguing with someone’s favourite colour or vacation spot.
So, here’s the thing: I would be completely, utterly terrified if a man wanted to marry me after three months, or even six.
OK, I have been in that situation, and it DID terrify me. Three months! Cripes! At that point you’ve hardly gotten to know each other. A guy who’s certain that he wants to marry you that early has blinders on and is just desperate for a relationship or a commitment. Yeah, you can rush into that thing, and then ten years later rush out of the marriage with all the fun that entails. Really. I WANT the guy who takes his time, because I know he’s sane and when he actually wants to commit, it’s because he wants to commit to me, and not to the idea of being married, or the fantasy about me that he’s built up in his head.
Reminds me of the three little piggies, and the house made of straw vs. the house made of brick. The house made of brick ain’t built in three months.
I love the conversations here. Your readers are all so bright!
ValleyForgeLady says
I am chuckling to myself…..How does any decent discriminating woman who has a career, friends, perhaps chldren find the time to cruise out there to find two other men to date while she is tryiing to manipulate the love of her life to marry her? This sounds like some bodice ripping romance novel……not reality.
It is hard enough to find one guy that hits the mark…let alone three. Even with on line dating….most people are having a tough time finding one person who is compatible let alone a harem of men to date.
Men and women today are time and financially challenged. Who can afford to be really playing the field if you have a decent person in your life that has long term potential?
Venus says
Sooo how exactly does TRUST work in this circular dating? And while woman is circular dating is it also ok for the guy to circular date? And with everyone circular dating when do we find time to explore the possibilities of “Us”, Wow.
I am looking for monogamy. If any guy tells me he wants to circular date I am cutting him off!! “Sure honey go ahead and circular date, just remember to take your stuff when you are leaving,”
I totally agree with your advice Evan.
Jane says
I have never posted on here although I have been an avid reader here and on Rori’s blog so I will cautiously attempt an opinion here…
Circular dating doesn’t mean dating a man per se. Rori claims you do it even when your are married. I took it to mean that you make yourself the center of your life and all around you (the circle) is your full life. And you do not give up this life when a man you care about/love comes into the picture. I took it as a similar thing to the mulligan(?) analogy your wife made awhile ago. You can “date” your job, your friends, your children, family, hobbies, the man at the store who you just smiled at…it means that your life is full and happy and not focused on ONE man who you make responsible for your happiness in life. It makes YOU responsible for your happiness. You are standing in the center of the circle and YOU are the focus. Many women meet a man and give up all the other parts of their life and focus on HIM. That’s what makes them insecure and impatient and, finally, demanding and unreasonable. By keeping your life full, the focus is off any one man for the responsibility for your happiness. By keeping your life full of things, you can sincerely give a man that mulligan because whatever he did was not and is not the end of your world. And by being full of your life and happy, he will be attracted to you if you are the right one for him and it will work out. And if he is not attracted to you, your life is full of possibilities and happiness and you just keep riding on. She tells you to engage with all men and learn from them and figure out what triggers your bad feelings so you can learn to be authentic with everyone. She never suggested being intimate with more than one man at a time; she advises against it as far as I can tell. I think she is about building your self-esteem and being vulnerable and authentic and feminine. And so I can see where her readers would get defensive and “triggered” because it has been a process for them to get to where they are and it is probably working for them. So maybe they took it the wrong way from a masculine, direct point of view. I think you are both great and both saying the same thing. She is definitely not about cheating or dishonesty or anything like that. And she does not usually advise “dumping” the guy and never advises hurting anyone. Anyways, as I said before, I think both of you are great! It’s Christian Carter who is the problem….lol, only kidding!
Liz says
@ Jane. Bravo and well put!
Irene says
I am Rori Raye’s reader. Pretty much have been summed up in Jane’s comment. But I would like to appreciate Evan for shining light on Rori’s point of view. He is right. They both are and it’s just that they have different ways of explaining the details concerning dating. Evan is tough and rori is soft and emotional…maybe it’s because they are of different gender 😊. I love them both.
JK says
Jane, you articulated RR’s concepts PERFECTLY!! I think Evan (although his insights are wonderful) misunderstood the concept and then took it in another direction. haha hence all this uproar! You really hit the target! Thank you so much for your wisdom.
Echoes says
This is what I suspected…from the bit I have read, she seems quite esoteric and her terminology should not be taken literally. Circular dating doesn’t mean creating a circle of men around you, it just means that when you are dating someone (even exclusively), he should NOT become the center of your life. YOU are the center (or for some of us, perhaps our God), and you have many things surrounding you (ie a full life beyond your romanctic relationship).
If you find yourself stressing after 7 months of dating that you are not yet engaged, then it is a sign that you have made the man the center of your life and your life is lacking in other areas. The idea is NOT to start dating other men if you are in an exclusive relationship (that you want to give more time), but to shift focus off of the man and build up the areas of your life that you have likely neglected. The panic comes from putting too much expectation on the relationship to fulfill you. The problem is not how long it takes men to make up their minds about getting married, but how much significance you have been giving it in your life.
But if you focus more on other areas of life, then if it does not work out, it was not such wasted time and is not such a devastating blow. He was only ONE aspect of your life during that time, not the center. In short, maintain yourself as the center, and you will keep things like “engagement” in perspective.
Gina says
Wow! This really hit home for me. I felt that my ex – whom I had been dating for a little over a year – had been stringing me along. Therefore, in my next relationship, I was going to protect myself by dating other men until I had a ring on my finger. After reading Evan’s advice, I will no longer consider this as an option if the relationship becomes exclusive. Rather, I will wait and see how things progress. If after a reasonable amount of time, the guy appears to be stringing me along and can’t make up his mind, I’ll do like I did before and walk away.
Once again, thanks for spelling this out in detail Evan. So sorry for the flack that you received for telling it like it is.
Aanmfmay says
Evan, kindly, after all I’ve been thru.. never mind.. I couldn’t handle a man who’d give up on me in a ‘moment of insecurity’.. no matter what I did or said (within reason here, no abuse!) I’m looking for unconditional! Get me! Love me the way I need to be loved stuff! If that means sticking around helping me heal some past trauma well then I’ll stick around to help you heal from yours too! It’s not personal and yet it all is! very much so.. Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?
Words have meaning says
You keep using that word “moment”. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Moment:
1 a : a minute portion or point of time : instant
b : a comparatively brief period of time
If you think that dating other men is something that takes place in a moment then you are very much mistaken.
EB says
Thank you Evan! I appreciate what you are trying to say here, and I agree, Although I AM A fan of Rori’s, the idea behind CD’ing seems wrong if you are in a good relationship. It seems like a double standard to me to date other men while he “makes up his mind”. Sure, just starting out is OK, but once things progress, how can I expect him to trust me if I am out doing who knows what with other men? And then, to expect him to NOT date others is selfish and unfair!
I agree that sticking with one man if he is GOOD is the best choice. If after a reasonable amount of time ( this can vary by person) your needs have not been met, then cut him loose – don’t openly cheat and expect that to improve the relationship!
kenley says
ValleyForgeLady,
I completely agree with you. I do find dating just one guy exhausting considering all the other things I have going on in my life. I can’t imagine adding two more to the list.
starthrower68 says
I think once you are in an actual exclusive relationship, at least a year is not unreasonable. I think two is quite reasonable. I was engaged to my ex husband for 2 years; we dated for 4 before that. We still ended up divorcing because we were a couple of stupid kids who didn’t know anything and didn’t grow up until it was too late. To be honest, if I find a good decent man who I know is not stringing me along, I see no reason to rush. My biological clock isn’t ticking, as I’ve had my kids. Like him, I want to be sure before I remarry. You have to go through the seasons of life together. And at this point, I’d like to just be in a relationship with a good and decent man for a while. It’s going to take some time for me to be ready to think about marriage again.
Shouraku says
Dating more then one man is not necessary for me to be happy with my life and get my emotional needs met.
Dating more then one man is not necessary for me to keep my life “full”.
Dating more then one man is not necessary to stop me from making one man responsible for my happiness in life.
If you have a problem with fulfillment in your life, or you make your own personal happiness the responsibility of someone else, then you have problems that need to be solved within yourself. Not by dating piles of men. Dating many men will not stop one from walking all over you, YOU will.
It seems to me that all the issues that circular dating proposes to solve could also be done by being honest and realistic with yourself. By setting boundaries and sticking to them, and accepting when a person is not compatible with you instead of attempting to change/force them.
Whenever I am presented with dating advice, I always try to stop and consider how executing the advice would affect my partner and how I would feel if I were in their shoes. Frankly, If someone told me that they were planing to date around (even with no sex involved) until I proposed, then I would feel pressured and unwilling to give my full attention to someone who saw me as an option instead of a priority.
Awesome Comment says
I love this comment. It contains a lot of common sense. I couldn’t more agree with every sentence you’ve written.
Sarahrahrah! says
@ Gem – #4
I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Evan, you are right on again! it wasn’t discussed in your article, but another consideration for CD is the STD factor. It’s just not safe. Women shouldn’t put up with that kind of behavior and neither should men.
Evan Marc Katz says
@ Aanmfmay: “Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?”
If my girlfriend of 16 months confessed to me that she was nervous about my not being sure that I’d marry her, I’d listen and validate her concern, and ask her to trust that I’m going to do the right thing.
If she kept carrying on about this insecurity, it would suck the life out of our relationship, which would suddenly become a weight instead of a positive, buoyant force, and I’d wonder if my whole life would be spent trying to give my girlfriend reassurance due to her own insecurities. It might not break us up, but it would certainly slow down my desire to put a ring on her finger. Happy confident people respond better to happy confident people and have little time for drama. Sorry, but it’s true.
Finally, if my girlfriend’s insecurity led her to circular date – to make herself happy and minimize her emotional investment in me – I’d be out the door. Not because I don’t love her. But because that’s not how you deal with insecurity – she can’t reasonably expect loyalty from me if she thinks the answer is to date other men.
If you believe that the “right” guy is there to heal your past trauma, I would suggest that you try healing your trauma before entering the relationship. Most men don’t respond well to the pressure of trying to make you whole. It’s not their job; it’s yours, and Rori would be the first to acknowledge it.
She and I simply disagree about the ramifications of this CDing process. If you read this blog and the comments closely, you can get a good sense of what the healthiest men would think about CDing.
Lucy says
Evan, unfortunately this article reveals an inaccurate understanding of Rori’s CD concept, which is admittedly complex and nuanced. Stripping it down to a straw man argument doesn’t help anyone, and only serves to create conflict where there need be none. The reason women resisted your gallant efforts at preventing their car wrecks was bc they rightly knew that they were not in danger. Perhaps we see the wings that you do not. As I have said before, I believe you and Rori are actually in agreement.
Lucy says
Trying to explain and apply CDing to your readers questions will give them a very inaccurate perception of how it actually works. It’s like you taking a beginners ballet class and then trying to use what you learned to teach seasoned dancers The Nutcracker. I would feel good about you putting more advanced study into the art before attempting to explain it to others, especially in a way that criticizes what is not understood. With respect and hope for greater understanding. Lucy
morgan says
NN @ 14
Thank-you for saying exactly what I was thinking after reading Evan’s post. What is the obsession with marriage as the ultimate goal of a relationship?
I’m wondering if it’s an American thing. I’m from Australia and have many friends who haven’t bothered getting married but whose relationships are marked by natural steps in commitment – exclusivity, cohabitation, investing in property, having children.
Dave says
Evan, I am a very healthy man and my work is with singles and couples. Rori’s principles, including CDing, are fantastic tools when correctly understood and applied. They are some of the best tools for specific relationship issues that I have ever seen. With all due respect, you seem to for the most part misunderstand how to use them. With my clients they are working wonders – saving and creating healthy relationships right and left. I hope you explore Rori’s ideas more thoroughly. Respectfully, Dave
Lucy says
Jane 24. I agree with you – Evan and Rori are saying the same thing.
Grace says
Evan, thanks for attempting to set things straight in your friend’s blog. Pity your concept was not well undertood and appreciated and you had to take such unpleasant blows.
The thing I like about your blog is the male point of view. Whether I like it or not, whether I accept it or not – you give us the male point of view. It may surprize me to know that this is how men think, but I believe that that is the value of your blog for me, a woman. If CD-ing is not well precieved by men (relationship oriented men, to be precise) then no amount of self esteem or self assurance, or whatever else that may come from it and make the woman feel better would be effective in achieving the end goal of getting the guy to commit. Because as you say- it would drive the man away. Thanks for reminding us that men need time, sometimes more that we think.
Diana says
To Jane #24, I think you described Rori’s intent perfectly. I have been reading Evan’s and Rori’s blogs, etc. for a few years, and my interpretation of Rori is the same as yours. I am not a user of her tools or a poster on her blog, but I don’t think of circular dating as dating at ALL in the traditional sense. While I have learned from Evan’s blog more about how men think, I have also found value in Rori’s blog for how a woman can thrive and love in a confident, attracting and attractive way without being a slave to her feelings, especially when it comes to men or a particular man. I have noticed that a lot of the writers to both Rori and Evan display similar traits and habits in their dating relationships: insecurities and staying with the wrong man are the biggest.
I don’t find a lot of what Evan has posted here in Rori’s work. I didn’t read the blasting from last week. Maybe some of her ardent readers, of which there are many, misunderstood a man’s take and interpretation about Rori and her approach. Or maybe I’m clueless and/or I’m only taking away from each of their wise words and experiences what feels right to me and fits well into my life. Rori did make me more aware of those things in life that trigger ALL of my emotions and how better to handle them which will naturally flow into better relationships down the road.
I think both the direct writing style and man’s view that Evan shares, and really getting in touch with and understanding your feelings and femininity that Rori shares have a valuable place in the world of dating experts. 🙂 Along with Christian 😉 and The Tao of Dating.
SS says
I read a book by another author who recommended a similar idea. At the time I was dating a great guy and it just didn’t feel right to accept dates from others when this great guy was going out of his way to show me how much he was interested in something serious with me.
I’m glad I followed my gut and did not engage in circular dating, as this great guy ended up proposing.
So I agree with you on that Evan.
The only area where I take issue is the idea of waiting for 2-3 years past age 30 for a proposal. It’s fine if someone wants to do that, but two was my limit, and even that was pushing it for me. In my head, my boyfriend had about a year and a half to propose and even he agreed that if we both knew what we wanted, there was no reason to continue the dating process instead of working to build a life together.
I was not going to be moving in with him either unless it was a few months before the wedding (personal choice), so perhaps that sped up the process of engagement as well.
Neither one of us had been married, nor do we have kids, so we didn’t have to overcome any fears from past marriages/long-term relationships.
While less than a year might seem to be a little fast, I don’t think that it’s too much for a woman past 30 (and especially 40) to seek a proposal within the general vicinity of a year. While I certainly was not going to dump my boyfriend if he hadn’t produced a ring on Day 366 of our relationship, I also wasn’t going to coast along in the beginning of Year 2 without having an idea of where this relationship was going and if he was seeing marriage in the very near future.
Luckily, I didn’t have to worry about that.
SS says
Honestly, I don’t care how people in other countries approach their relationships. If people in Sweden and Australia want to cohabitate, have children and never have a marriage certificate, that’s perfectly fine with me.
That doesn’t make my desire for marriage invalid or wrong. Just as it would be wrong for an American to criticize Swedes and Australians for not caring as much about marriage, I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to question why someone wants to be married.
The fact that many Americans value state and/or religious-sanctioned marriage does not make us “obsessed” with anything. Marriage is an institution that many Americans value and there isn’t a darn thing wrong with that.
Karl R says
Aanmtmay said: (#26)
” I couldn’t handle a man who’d give up on me in a ‘moment of insecurity’.. no matter what I did or said (within reason here, no abuse!)”
We may have a difference of opinion about what qualifies as being “within reason.”
I’m certain that you would find a few other actions besides abuse to be unacceptable during a “moment of insecurity,” such as infidelity. For most of us, those actions would include someone who continues to date others after we agree to date exclusively.
If you want a simple guideline, I expect my fiancée to act with integrity, even when she’s feeling insecure.
In general, I suspect that you want a partner who makes you feel more secure in a relationship, not less secure. Would you feel more secure if your boyfriend started dating two additional women? Would you feel less secure? Why would a man feel any differently.
Aanmtmay asked: (#26)
“Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?”
If a girlfriend’s insecurity had led her to start dating other men (after we agreed to be exclusive), I would have stopped emotionally investing myself in the relationship, distanced myself to whatever degree I felt necessary, and started dating other women.
When my (then girlfriend, currently fiancée) had a moment of insecurity, she started asking some questions so she could get some clarity. At that point in time I believed that would would eventually end up married, but I thought it was too soon to propose.
That’s how you handle a moment of insecurity with integrity. If you handle it in a way that lacks integrity, you will compromise your boyfriend’s trust in you.
Jane said: (#24)
“I will cautiously attempt an opinion here… Circular dating doesn’t mean dating a man per se.”
It’s rather clear from Rori’s post (linked to above) that circular dating includes activities that could be considered dates.
And the way you externally describe an action affects the way you internally perceive it.
If my fiancée wants to dance with another man, that’s fine. If she wants to have coffee with a coworker, that’s fine. If she wants to have dinner with an ex, that’s fine. But if she refers to any of those activities as being a date, then I have a huge problem with it.
And if the guy she’s with believes that it’s a date, I expect her to correct his misperception.
Jennifer says
I’m not a reader of Rori’s blog so I missed this big dust-up, but when i first heard of the circular dating concept i was appalled much like everyone else here, but once I read her explanation of what circular dating while in a relationship actually is (basically, ‘dating’ is a total misnomer) it is in line with what Jane (post #24) described. Which is much more reasonable.
The problem of course is calling it ‘dating’. But hey, titilation and crazy-sounding ideas are attention grabbers.
Jennifer says
To clarify #43, I’d heard of Rori and circular dating and investigated more to get my understanding of it before this blog entry.
The Other SS says
I’m enjoying this conversation but the labeling and judgments feel terrible. If circular dating doesn’t feel right for you, then don’t do it. It’s that simple.
CDing personally works for me. It’s a choice I’m making for my life right now. And it’s changed my entire view about dating and about myself!
If exclusive dating is working for you and getting you the relationship you want, then brava!! But the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. If exclusive dating isn’t working, maybe it’s time to try something else. Or at the very least be open to it. Who knows…
Regardless, I highly recommend CDing!
Karl R says
Jennifer said: (#43)
“I read her explanation of what circular dating while in a relationship actually is (basically, ‘dating’ is a total misnomer)”
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
If Evan and I can read Rori’s explanation of circular dating, and we both understand it to include casual dates with other men when you have a serious boyfriend, I would consider it highly likely that a fair number of Rori’s regular readers have interpreted it the same way.
As best as I’ve been able to determine, Rori uses “circular dating” to describe three different concepts:
1. Leading a full and happy life outside of the relationship.
2. Casually dating multiple men until you choose to date one exclusively (and he explicitly brings up the topic of dating exclusively)
3. Openly dating outside the (formerly) exclusive relationship if the woman feels the man is taking too long to propose, in order to inspire the man to take some form of action.
The only problem I have with the concept 1 is that it’s misleading to describe it as dating. Otherwise, I’d say it’s a healthy attitude for everyone.
Evan and I would both describe concept 2 as “dating.” Though I’d say either the man or woman can ask for clarification as to whether there’s exclusivity.
And concept 3, which would cause a lot of high quality men to assume the woman has lost interest (or lacks integrity).
So if you look at the full spectrum of what Rori advises under the blanket term of “circular dating,” it includes some good ideas, and some really bad ideas.
And Evan has focused entirely on the aspect that’s a bad idea. That’s the part where a warning is necessary.
Rori Raye says
Hi all, This is Rori Raye, and I feel so honored to be part of sparking this great conversation. I totally love Evan – both as a man and as a relationship “guru” – and I refer my clients to him often. Every time I get one of his newsletters, I wish I’d written it – and I incorporate his ideas (and credit Evan for them) into my work all the time.
Thank you Jane, Lucy, Dave, Jennifer and others for helping clarify what Circular Dating actually is (yes, it can include actual “dating” – but that’s not what it’s about). And since my whole work is around authenticity, vulnerability and telling the absolute truth – I am always working against strategies, games, and hiding things from your romantic partner – or even the man you’re talking to at the moment (which is essentially what CDing is about – talking to, relating to, practicing being your authentic self with men, women and children wherever and whenever you encounter them “out in the field”). How this is done when you are deeply involved with one man is, yes, complex, and I’ve created an entire program around how Circular Dating works and how to use it – so it’s not easily or quickly explained. It is, like so much of my work, an “Inner Game” tool using outer circumstances.
And – it doesn’t even matter. Even if Evan and I were totally opposed, and I don’t think we are (he’s on one of programs, and I just interviewed him, and I love his guest posts on my blog and apologize to him and all of you on this wonderful blog for any negative reactions he’s experienced there) – we are all so different. We all operate differently and experience differently and learn differently – and, for me, it’s so much better to have all these different ideas to try out and choose from.
I thank Evan for his passion, clarity and ability to help women get the love they want, and look forward to sharing more ideas.
Sincerely, Rori
Ruby says
I have read Rori Raye’s emails about circular dating. I’d call it a strategy to light a fire under a man who is taking too long to propose. In the examples I read, this was not suggested after a few months of dating, but after many months or years, or after a man who initially wanted commitment started dragging his feet. My take-away is that it’s a way of maintaining the relationship with conditions, rather than breaking up outright. It’s not about cheating or being unfaithful, as some have implied.
I’m not really seeing what the big deal is. If breaking up works for you, then do that. If circular dating sounds like a good idea, then try that. Either way, if a man wants to step up to the plate, he will.
Bridget says
To me it seems like cd-ing would be like getting a little taste of everything, like a sampler platter. If your guy can’t further commit after numerous years and the fried cheese sticks are getting cold, he should be just as responsible for dumping you if he doesn’t like the idea that you want to order the sampler platter. Afterall, when you feel like a good catch and the fisherman is fishing for you but doesn’t really care if he nets you or not, can make a person feel a little unwanted. While at the same time he doesn’t want any one else to catch you either. Thats when I think cd-ing is only fair.
TXBirdy says
Ok, there seems so much fuss over this to me…
I’m a long time Rori fan, and think Evan’s got a great point. For me, CD is revolutionary, since I’ve dated only 1 person at a time in the past. So I’d have a date with Guy 1, and go about my life, wondering about date #2, hoping he’d call, or whatever, but not dating anyone else and hanging by the phone with bated breath, no matter how hard I tried not to.
With CD, I am dating a few others while Guy 1 takes his time deciding if he wants another date, spends time out of town, or whatever he’s doing that I didn’t hear from him for a while. I can meet Guy 2 and catch some live music, go for cocktails on the patio with Guy 3, along with lunches with friends, a movie and dinner on a me time outing, or whatever else I enjoy. (All CD examples per Rori, so CD can also mean time with platonic friends, quality self care time, etc.)
None of the guys has any exclusive commitment with me, so they may (or not) choose to date other ladies, not my business. So maybe for me, CD keeps things less focused on any one guy until we are ready to be exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend. I have chosen to explain CD and utilize it in this way until I feel a man I’m seeing in a more casual way proposes more. And I communicate this to them honestly, wanting to take my time to choose only the man I want to marry before I get exclusively involved. Now I realize we may then date exclusively for a couple years before marriage is a likelihood- I feel comfortable with that time frame.
I just don’t want to close my options to others and focus on only one man if I’m not feeling that he is a good fit- funny, perhaps I agree with Evan more than I realized?
So Evan, I’d like your opinion: what is a reasonable time frame to date someone before getting exclusive? How long is too long to wait for exclusivity and give up hope that (s)he will ever agree marry you? How long is too long to see if someone’s a good fit? What do you think?
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks, TXBirdy. To reiterate, what you’re calling Circular Dating is simply known as “dating” to men. We date lots of women, until one really seems to set herself apart, and then we start investing more time in her and push for exclusivity. Now, to be clear, exclusivity means that you are now boyfriend/girlfriend; it does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that you are definitely getting married. People who commit to being in an exclusive relationships are essentially leasing, with an option to buy. And that lease runs for about 2-3 years before most men are ready to make that buying decision.
As for how long before you give an exclusive relationship a shot? Some folks dive in after one date because they “feel it”. It’s a great feeling, but it’s often misleading. More common is a decision made within the first 6 weeks or so. And if a guy hasn’t indicated he’s serious within the 3 months at the VERY LATEST, I would assume that he wants exactly what he’s got: a low-stakes, once a week, status quo, semi-booty call. That’s why he’s only calling you one a week and not escalating his efforts; he doesn’t WANT to. On the other hand, if calling you every day, making an effort to see you every weekend, taking his profile down, introducing you to friends and family, etc, you’re probably on the path to be a girlfriend. Just don’t accept the once a week guy for too long – your boyfriend wants to see you more than that.
A-L says
I had briefly been on Rori’s e-mail list and that’s where I first heard about circular dating. As far as keeping a full life that does not revolve around your significant other, yeah that’s a good idea. But continuing to date multiple people until you get a ring on your finger? Like most of the folks here, that doesn’t work for me. Nor does it sound as though it works for the men.
By the way, I don’t know if I missed the engagement earlier, but congratulations Karl to you and your fiancee!
l says
Evan, I totally think you have a great blog and bring up a lot of great points. I am sorry you were critcized for stating your opinion. I don’t think you deserved to be criticized. I think healthy debates and discussions among people who have different opinions, while keeping true to your own knowledge is one of your biggest strengths. You want to say what you think and hear from others as well. And you have helped so many people. On the plus side, you really opened up a dialogue with most people agreeing that too many women (from experience, as I should certainly know) put too much stake into a guy and don’t keep their life going for themselves as well as they should. Doing exactly this whould help women: 1. make better judgements because she is not so desperate and perceiving herself as not having choices, and 2. making herself more attrative to the guy by being more interesting and having a life. Anyway, keep up the great work you are doing.
Twilight Princess says
I disagree. I think that Rori’s blog is providing a great service. Finally, a blog that provides a kind of Darwinism for dating. Those women are not being reasonable… clearly. If you can’t be reasonable you will be cut from the dating pool. SORRY! That kind of works out for the good women and men looking for a decent date. Honestly, women or men that think CDing is healthy for any relationship is wrong. They are doing exactly what they expect men NOT to do. Commit to me!, but I’m not going to do the same for you.???? Ummm… what? Isn’t there a word for that? (hypocrite?) How can you expect a man to commit to you if you are out investing your time and emotional being in ‘X’ amount of other men? This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. Honestly, how do they have the time for dating that many people?! I think everyone in my circle of friends and family, including myself, would be VERY uncomfortable with the idea of being engaged after 3 months. That’s preposterous. Knock! Knock! Is anybody home? Evan, those women are bonkers.
Sincerely,
26, FEMALE, in a relationship(thanks to the advice on THIS blog) and REALLY hoping I never become that cynical about dating should my current relationship come to an end.
P.S.- You’re making way too much sense. That’s going to have to stop.
LVD says
Hi!
I’ve been following both Rori and Evan’s work and I see this situation as a complete misunderstanding of what Rori means by circular dating.
As she said, she has a whole program about the concept. It quite complex. EMK is focusing on one tiny detail without understanding the overall concept. No surprise that it doesn’t make sense to him.
Rori is not an advocate of game-playing and manipulation. In fact, quite the opposite. She is all about encouraging woman to be authentic and real and take responsibility for what they are creating in the relationship.
I feel really sad seeing her teachings being torn apart by people who haven’t taken the time to really understand what she is saying.
I also feel disappointed by the way EMK was treated by a few of Rori’s readers, actually really only one commentor seemed out of line. The rest of it seemed to be a fair discussion.
Of course there was some debate. I mean, what do you expect EMK? Your tone was a little pushy and over-bearing. Women do not like to be told that they are wrong and can’t make wise decisions for themselves. Nobody does.
When you come in with an attitude like that, why be surprised if people don’t respond well it?
My ultimate message is that as someone who has studied both Rori and EMK, they are saying basically the same thing. Just using different terms, and communication style, and somewhat of a different target audience.
EMK, I recommend that instead of trying to tear cd-ing down, you should try to understan it better. There is a mojor point to it that you are completely missing.
Evan Marc Katz says
LVD,
I let your comment through, despite the negative comments about me.
And while you, and Rori’s fans, can reiterate the complexities and nuances of “circular dating” that are above my head, I still haven’t quite grasped what I’m missing.
So please, instead of telling me that I’m pushy, overbearing and have a negative attitude, I would really appreciate you reading my post and telling me what I’ve gotten wrong.
It’s 4 pages long, so there’s lots to work with. Where did I misquote my friend, Rori? Where did I twist her philosophy or slander her readers unfairly? And which bullet point of mine is bad advice?
Because, really, I don’t care if you don’t like my style or my attitude: all I care about is that my advice is going to help you understand and connect with men BETTER.
And until you can illustrate to me that expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic…or that dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more, I’m going to stick by my analysis.
Ball’s in your court.
What did I get wrong?
LVD says
Also, I apologize for making negative comments about you. That was unfair. To be truthful, although I really like most of what you say, your style is a little too “in your face” for me. I’m a woman and I respond better to a certain amount of gentleness but I dont want to be negative about you or your style because of my own personal preferences.
I’m happy that you are putting your own unique style and voice out there and I feel certain you are helping many people, myself included.
LVD says
“And until you can illustrate to me that expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic…or that dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more, I’m going to stick by my analysis.”
I do respect that you asked me to illustrate these points.
***expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic
***dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more
Neither one of these concepts are what cd-ing is about.
My understanding of what Rori is saying is…if marriage is very important to a woman, then be true to that. She is not saying that women should expect a man to know if he is ready to marry by 6 mos. Not at all.
She acknowledges that people have different time frames for when they know, both men and women. She advises women to stay focused on the relationship they want. If a woman wants to be married soon, then it doesn’t make sense to be exclusive with a man who needs a lot of time to decide. The woman is being true to her dreams.
I do agree that some women get hyper-focused on being “married” and forget about the beauty of the courting stage. They get insecure and want to rush things. They even try to manipulate. And some women do use circular dating to manipulate their men. And I agree with you that that would push a smart man away.
But that isn’t actually what Rori is recommending. Not at all.
It’s a small scenario taken out of context of the big picture advice she is giving.
And she’s not saying that ” dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more”. She’s saying that if the relationship isn’t moving at the pace a woman wants, then the woman needs to be honest with herself and do the inner work to see why she’s feeling insecure and impatient. If through doing that she comes to the conclusion that the relationship isn’t working for her as it is, then she needs to be open to other options. She doesn’t dump the man. She gives him a chance to step up if he feels inspired. Her focus isn’t to make the guy want to more. It’s to be true to herself.
B says
I agree with everything LVD said, and I don’t feel she was being as negative/defensive as Evan. Circular Dating works, and that is from personal experience not stuff I read online and never even tried and then judge it – what Evan is describing here is not at all what Rori advocates for. I’m not a “Rori Fan” or trying to defend her or anything – it is just personal experience that when you really get CD for what it’s meant to be it is very powerful.
Emily says
I’ve read all this with interest. For the record, I completely agree with Evan. Furthermore – I don’t think I would have the heart to keep dating if I really loved my boyfriend. I wouldn’t WANT to go on dates with others – unless, said boyfriend was a means to an end, i.e., I’m more excited about “being married” than spending my life with that individual. No matter which way I slice it, I can’t see it any other way than a manipulation tool. I can’t see it working on ANY man.
My personal experience is with a man 15 yrs older and a confirmed bachelor. He will not budge on the marriage issue and he has gotten phone calls from me that go something like this, “I need to cancel our vacation this summer, I am sleeping with someone.” Ladies, this man is a longtime friend and he loves me, but he also knows we’ll NEVER see eye to eye on marriage and because of that, he runs the risk of losing me. AND HE ACCEPTS it! There is NOTHING I can do except NOT DATE HIM!
Now, if I met a man who was present, a companion and a partner, do you think for one second I would want to have the same dynamic with him? I don’t want to spend my life watch-dogging my man – and to me this “strategy” pretty much guarantees it. You force someone’s hand and you can never stop – tiger by the tail. Sounds like an exhausting and very insecure life you’ll lead if you have to rope someone in that way.
I have had a major perspective shift from simply wanting to get married (I still do, of course) to wanting to find someone who loves me unconditionally, whose company I enjoy and with whom I can completely be myself. I realize my push for marriage in the past has been because I didn’t feel secure in the relationship and I sought to ease that by trying to “lock-up” a commitment.
However, I can see where this 6 month time-frame makes sense to some women. I have plenty of examples in my own life of things moving at an accelerated pace. 3 years ago, my best friend went to her family reunion. She was in a ten year relationship and her boyfriend refused to accompany her (pretty jerky, right?). While there, she met her father’s best friend’s son. Three months later the 10 yr guy was gone, new guy was moved in and making an investment in my friend and her home and her friends (he fit right into our group). Another girlfriend dumped a man 20 yrs her senior after 5 yrs of hooking up and heartbreak. She met her future husband 2 weeks later, a month after that, they were spending every night together.
My point is that a speedy courtship CAN happen – but I think the point everyone is missing is that you can’t MAKE IT HAPPEN. In general, I expect that I’ll have a sense of peace when the right guy comes. I may not have verbal confirmation that we’ll get married – but I imagine I’ll have intuition or some kind of sixth sense that I can RELAX and TRUST.
I think these angry comments are coming from very scared women who are on the brink due to bad experiences. I think when a simple observation creates so much anger and judgment, you can almost be certain there are a lot of underlying issues. You obviously hit a nerve, Evan.
Margo says
Evan, I’ve already replied once to this post, but I think the thing that is upsetting so many women on Rori’s Blog is the three year time frame you suggest waiting for the proposal. Many women don’t want to wait that long and would feel more secure with the relationship if they were to receive a proposal after 2 years max.
River Girl says
Evan @ 56
One thing you got wrong is that nowhere does Rori suggest that it is realistic to expect a man to KNOW anything!! Sorry, couldn’t resist that twist ; )
What I love about what Rori teaches is that it is about NOT having expectations. It is about being yourself, knowing what you want, leaning back, being open and receptive and being surprised.
Karl R says
LVD said: (#55)
“EMK is focusing on one tiny detail without understanding the overall concept.”
The overall concept is fine. It’s that tiny detail that’s seriously flawed.
It doesn’t matter if your car is “overall” in perfect condition. One “tiny detail” that’s flawed (no brake pads or a cut fuel line) can turn the whole thing into a wreck.
Ruby said: (#48)
“this was not suggested after a few months of dating, but after many months or years, or after a man who initially wanted commitment started dragging his feet. My take-away is that it’s a way of maintaining the relationship with conditions, rather than breaking up outright.”
Your goal is to be married to a good man, correct? So you’re looking for a man who has integrity and is looking to commit.
If you’re not happy with the status quo (after years of waiting), Evan recommends that you leave. Rori recommends that you start dating others.
To an outside observer, which one of those actions has more integrity?
My fiancée and I got engaged about 19-20 months after we started dating. At the 12 month mark, I was rather certain that my girlfriend was the right one for me, but I wasn’t quite ready to get engaged. If she had decided to break things off because I hadn’t gotten engaged at that point, I would have taken the risk and stepped up before I was quite ready. My doubts at that point weren’t that big.
However, if she had decided that she was going to start dating other men, since I wasn’t ready to get engaged, I would have broken things off. I would have packed up my clothes and taken them back to my apartment. In my opinion, that would have been a clear sign that she lacked integrity, and I would have felt that I had dodged a bullet by waiting until I saw how she resolved conflicts.
Furthermore, if you’re still seriously involved with your boyfriend (if neither of you breaks things off), you won’t be able to get a man who has integrity.
If a woman has recently broken up with her boyfriend, I’ll assume that it’s likely that she’s not emotionally disentangled from her ex yet, and is unlikely to be ready for a long-term relationship. If that woman is still living with and sleeping with her boyfriend, it’s absolutely certain that she’s not disentangled from him. She’s a potential sex partner, but not a potential girlfriend.
Furthermore, as a casual date, I’m likely to assume she’s either cheating, -or- she’s in an open relationship. I’m not interested in a long-term relationship that’s open, nor am I interested in a serious relationship with a cheater. (If I was just looking for a quick fling, I probably wouldn’t care.)
How heavily are you willing to gamble that the next man you’re interested in will quickly grasp the nuances of Rori’s strategy?
How is this strategy more effective than Evan’s? To me, it seems to have a higher probability of failure.
Bridget said: (#49)
“If your guy can’t further commit after numerous years and the fried cheese sticks are getting cold, he should be just as responsible for dumping you if he doesn’t like the idea that you want to order the sampler platter.”
Let’s say your guy has no interest in ever getting married. He’s enjoying the regular sex, and feels no need to take it further. If you start circular dating, you’re still in a relationship with him, and he’s still having sex with you on a regular basis.
Furthermore, since you’re out dating other men, he now is at liberty to do the same thing with other women.
He’s still getting what he wants (with the option for some extra on the side). You still aren’t getting what you want. Why would he take the responsibility for dumping you?
How is this an effective way to get rid of the guy?
A-L said: (#52)
“congratulations Karl to you and your fiancee!”
Thanks.
TXBirdy says
Karl,
good points, but I’d like to point out that CD in ltr/non committal situations generally comes about when a woman sees her beloved isn’t stepping up, only promising, but not moving the relationship in that direction. Truly, I agree with Evan, walk away, but our hearts are still entangled, so another option is to basically break it off, and possibly still date the beloved ex, but once we CD and see just how much our ex wasn’t coming forward to meet our needs- maybe in commitment, maybe in any number of other ways, it is a lot easier to truly just walk away and let the beloved ex remain a part of our past- if we want.
And I’d say it seems everyone has their own arbitrary length of time alotted before the proposal step needs to be taken. I actually don’t- I don’t care when I get married, if I ever do, I want the right committed loving relationship for me, and I’ll wait as long as necessary for THAT-
so if my reltionship is wonderful and fulfilling to both of us, and I feel our commitment is there, I personally wouldn’t start to CD just because he didn’t propose in 6 months, or nine months, or 2 years….
But if I feel after 2 years of dating, we aren’t moving forward in our commitment, but still dating and seeing each other a few nights a week, etc, then I might feel it’s time to move on to dating others, because the security of a committed relationship is what I want, including marriage. And I am clear that is what I want up front as I begin dating any man, so it’s probably not going to surprise a man that I would move on after 2 years of stagnant relationship. If we still love each other, and we both want to work it out, it seems this gives the uncertain man a chance to salvage the relationship if he wants. I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.
I had a couple CD’s who I dated for 3+ months who didn’t call or see me more than 1x a week, often not even that… and then told me they wanted to be exclusive with me. That felt weird to me, since I hadn’t seen a growing relationship, so I didn’t agree to be exclusive- in fact, after 3 months of dating so casually I felt I hardly knew these men, nor them me, since they didn’t spend all that much time with me. I don’t want that kind of stagnant relationship, so I actually broke off seeing them totally.
Bridget says
Karl # 62. You ask ” How is this an effective way to get rid of the guy?” It’s not, b/c my intention is not to get rid of the guy. I love the guy, he’s fun, I enjoy his company. And yes, say you are right that he has no intention of EVER getting married. That is why I have the desire to circular date. B/c getting married is a desire of mine. It has come clear to me, that he and I are both comfortable with each other, and neither of us want to make a painful move. So I guess it seems to be easier to maintain a relationship and have the opportunity to look around. Even tho dating others has not been discused as an option yet between us. I am also 35 and would like to have the option of having kids before it is too late.
Karl R says
TXBirdy said: (#63)
“I don’t want that kind of stagnant relationship, so I actually broke off seeing them totally.”
I would say that you followed the effective strategy.
TXBirdy said: (#63)
“I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.”
Have you ever dated a man who had just gotten out of a long-term relationship, but clearly wasn’t over his ex? If you get the idea that a man isn’t over his ex, does it send up a yellow flag (or red flag) to you?
Let’s say you meet a man who was in a two-year relationship, he wanted to get married, but his girlfriend didn’t want to. He’s dating again, but he still hasn’t broken up with his long-term girlfriend yet. As a woman who is seeking to get married, would you consider this man to be a good prospect for a husband, or would he be sending up red flags?
This man is basically advertising that he’s not ready to walk away from his girlfriend, even though his needs aren’t being met. He’s deliberately leaving the door open for her. As a woman who wants to get married, would you waste any of your time dating this man?
Why would a marriage-minded man see the situation any differently than you?
Shouraku says
TXBirdy :
I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.
I do see the logic behind this. I see how it can save you pain and discomfort and prevent you from completely abandoning your slow-to-act boyfriend just in case he changes his mind. I get that.
However, read Karl’s post again:
I was rather certain that my girlfriend was the right one for me, but I wasn’t quite ready to get engaged. If she had decided to break things off because I hadn’t gotten engaged at that point, I would have taken the risk and stepped up before I was quite ready.
If a man has any intention of stepping up rather than losing you then he is more then likely going to do it whether you use CD or break up with him. One of those two methods has integrity, and like most other aspects of life, it is not necessarily the easiest choice.
Paula says
I have never met a man or woman yet who is ok with their partner declaring they want to date other people especially if they have been going out for a while and are happy together.
All that tells them is you dont really want to be exclusive with them and for a woman, instead of forcing a man step up to the plate and commit it will make him run away and find a woman who will be faithful. I am talking about normal guys who are capable of being faithful and want to get married and have a family.
I find some of Rori’s methods don’t work well with guys and others that are good and make sense.
Evan is correct when he says to assess a mans efforts and give him some time to figure out whether he is looking to spend the rest of his life with you. It’s a big decision for a man when he knows this will involve raising children especially if he has been married before and it didn’t work out. And while he is doing this YOU can work out whether he will be a good fit with your life, family and friends, whether you both have the same basic values and are capable of working out any differences when they do occur without it turning into World War 3.
Use some common sense and your intuition and keep it simple.
Twilight Princess says
LVD: Why does he have to be attacked because he was being straight forward? Evan is straight forward. If you read this blog regularly you’d see that. I think he’s being really nice. I really appreciate his blunt personality. When you reach a certain age and are still making rookie mistakes in the dating game what other choice do you have? Tough love! He’s not saying it to be insulting. He’s trying to get women to realize that this is a bad way to go about dating. If you don’t believe him, why don’t you give it a try? Plus it’s a debate, as you noted before, they can get messy. AND if you’ve been dating for a while and one thing doesn’t work why would anyone be so opposed to trying something new? Props to Evan. Never change your tone. Some people appreciate it.
Pokadots says
I agree with Twilight Princess. Why is it that just because someone does not like a “tone” should they expect to be attacked and personally insulted? Evan was resorted to defending his integrity and his marriage just because he voiced he did not like a dating principle being used. It’s one thing to be in your feelings as they preach on the RR blog, but you do still have to also know how to separate what is going on in you to what is happening outside of you as well. Not everything is personal and frankly as a woman, it actually did me a world of good when I stopped taking and seeing everything as such. Suddenly the world stopped being all about “me, me, me.” No offense but this is exactly the reason why I had to quit cold turkey going on the RR blog in the first place.
EE says
@Bridget 42 You want to have the option of having kids? Decide you want them or not and make it a goal (or not). Otherwise you might find yourself 42 and still wondering if you want them and OH DARN it is too late. I have seen this.
The painful move it is going to hurt whenever you do it; him for sure and maybe you too. It also might confuse the man you are considering being exclusive with with as you agonize over what to do. Maybe you handle this emotionlessly, but staying in this comfortable place will impair your ability to find a partner. It is certainly sucking up time and emotional energy when you could be looking. Good luck.
Anna says
I don’t see why all these comments are bashing circular dating. I see what Evan is saying about not dating other men when you have a quality man, and dumping men who aren’t quality. I agree. Waiting for a ring before you stop dating other people is a bit extreme.
However, I have been dating multiple people since before I ever looked up Rori or Evan’s blogs. And when you are in the early stages of dating (not sleeping together, deciding if you like each other at all, etc) I think it’s an EXCELLENT idea to date multiple people. And it DOES make the man pay more attention, IF he’s really interested in you. And if you’re not hanging on, waiting for one man to decide if he likes you, you’re in a better position. It’s the 50% thing. He’s dating other women, you’re dating other men. I think that’s perfectly healthy and more than reasonable (although a lot of men seem shocked that after 1 date I’m not willing to stop seeing other people!!)
When would you say is an appropriate time to stop seeing other people? After 3 dates? After 2 months? I agree that waiting for marriage is unreasonable, especially since I would not tolerate a man dating other women if I thought I might want to marry him…. but surely there must be some place for dating multiple people in the early stages, before you both agree to be exclusive.
Tina says
I adore reading what Evan has to say and I adore reading what Rory has to say. Both, over time, have written things that have helped me a lot and caused me to look inward and make some positive changes.
I have to agree with Evan on the circular dating though.
It’s particularly interesting since I live in a completely different culture. Here in the Mediterranean there is no way a woman could circular date without raising surefire hell or straight up losing a guy. Various Italian male friends of mine over the years have said that’s one thing they can’t understand about American dating culture – that it would be acceptable to date more than one person for that long. Sure, at the beginning before you’re a couple, you meet all kinds of people and date. But once you’re a couple you’re a couple. That’s just how it is here. And people decide pretty quickly that they want to be a couple, much more quickly than in the States.
If I were to insist on “CDing”, it would be pointless. I can’t change the culture where I am. I don’t have to 100% adapt either but I can’t insist that an entire country change its ways in matters of the heart. I tried to “CD” here but it only created stress and confusion and I stopped quickly. No thank you!
If a guy wants to only see me and is sure that he wants to be my boyfriend, AKA the only man I date, it seems to me the best thing to do is believe and trust and, if that’s what I want, say yes.
Tina says
P.S. I just wanted to add… to each their own, really, but I think that if we spend all our time trying all kinds of tricks & tools (however positive and useful) with the goal of getting married or what have you, we risk forgetting to just relax and actually get to know the person. This is why I personally can’t CD. Now that I have decided to be in a relationship, I much prefer the idea of sitting back, relaxing, and getting to know this man and hopefully growing with him. After all, that’s also MY time to decide if I want to spend the rest of my life with him. If I’m busy dating others, I can’t do that. But, that’s just me.
Emily says
Hi again,
I know my experience is not applicable for everyone but I am a 35 year old woman who has “left the door open” for my ex for 15 years!
Nothing has changed! He’s happy and comfortable and I have facilitated it. A clean break is the only way to go – it opens the door for someone new (there have been new people over the years but the “open door” presented a problem. Thus my conclusion that you need to move on before you move on).
I read on Rori’s blog that CDing is a way for you to maintain a healthy attitude and not be wrapped up on one man. And yes, also a way of breaking it off without breaking it off. Good for anyone who has the fortitude to date effectively while living a new sort of emotional limbo. I know I didn’t.
And how can you ever be certain that you’re dating for yourself – or to prove point or force a desired outcome.
I have seen in my friend’s lives that forcing a guy to make the call is NEVER the right action. One friend did it after 5 years of dating and they divorced after 10 years of marriage and she’s left with the realization that even though she was “successful” in getting him to marry her, she would have been better off waiting for the right man.
Like I said in my last comment – I think what’s lacking is a sense of peace in the woman’s heart about the man and the relationship. I think that uneasiness seriously needs to be honored. When I walk down the aisle, I want it to be with a happy man who made his own decision proactively, and not as a result of a threat.
If a man really is into you, the fear of losing you is generated from within and HE feels a sense of urgency. If it ain’t there and you “create” it, I think it’s a recipe for disappointment later on.
Also,
Waiting three years is nothing. It’s not because I have waited 15 that I say that. I think there are clear signs and messages when a man plans to make a lifetime commitment. I think those messages are being conveyed in myriad ways before he ever says anything and that you will feel able to relax, be calm and enjoy the organic growth of your relationship. 6 months or 3 years won’t make a difference when you feel the peace in your heart that comes from truly feeling secure.
I have to ask, if you feel the need to push or root out intentions, how is that a sign that you feel secure? Honor why you feel that panic. Explore if it’s you being unreasonable or him sending signals he’s happy not moving forward. In any case, I’d be extremely careful with this tactic.
SS says
I agree with EE.
Bridget, I don’t see how waiting around with a man who clearly stated that he has no intention to get married is benefitting you in any way. There’s not even a middle ground here — you want to marry, he doesn’t, discussion over.
So… neither of you want to make a painful move… but really, he’s not sacrificing as much as you are by continuing to stay in the relationship because he’s not the one who wants to marry. Sounds like a great deal for him (and rather selfish on his part), but since you’re going along with it — even though you want kids — he’s not going to cut the cord.
As much as breakups suck, I don’t get the point behind holding off on making tough decisions when you know you’re at a dead end. Yes, it will be painful, but that’s life. Just rip the band-aid off right now and deal with the pain, and then work toward moving on to someone who has the same goals.
Emily says
Good stuff!
Karl said:
Let’s say you meet a man who was in a two-year relationship, he wanted to get married, but his girlfriend didn’t want to. He’s dating again, but he still hasn’t broken up with his long-term girlfriend yet. As a woman who is seeking to get married, would you consider this man to be a good prospect for a husband, or would he be sending up red flags?
I have had one man call me out and pull no punches. He actually recommended I read a book because obviously I have issues. The sad thing is, on more than one occassion, I have thought that I met “the one” and that I could move on to a great life and put the ex behind me.
There are two problems with this. One, my new relationship wasn’t without it’s bumps and it was much easier to talk to the ex about the problems than it was to bond with the new guy.
Two: being with someone who doesn’t love or respect you enough to care about YOUR LIFE and your goals for said life is extremely detrimental to your self-esteem. Mine is in tatters. I literally could not function in my new relationship and did not know how to react when I was treated like I always dreamed.
Trust me ladies, BREAK IT OFF. It has been extremely hard for me to realize that I wasn’t ready for the life I’ve always wanted because I have spent so much time adapting to an unhealthy situation. You may think you will get out baggage free, but it will creep up on you, trust me.
Get out, get healthy. Find yourself again and then re-approach dating fresh. Dating with a heavy heart because you really love your non-committal man is not fair to anyone – especially the new guy!
Mercedes says
I posted on Rori’s blog about CDing but I wanted to post here as well even though I feel a little late to the party. I think one of the problems with understanding this concept is that on this blog (and on the recent posts on Rori’s blog as well), CDing has been portrayed only as actually going on real dates with other men. That’s how it starts, but there are lots of levels to it that encouage a women to keep her options open, not pin all of her dreams on one man and stay open to the possibility that even if this man does end up not wanting to marry her, she’ll be just fine as a sexy, vibrant, loving woman – without him. Some of the more “relaxed” approaches to CDing are things like having lunch “dates” with a male co-worker, flirting with the guy at the grocery store, taking yourself out to a nice dinner and flirting with men you meet (also known as circular dating yourself), actually MEETING men, etc.
When I did it, I actually went on dates with other men until I got the relationship I wanted (along with a forever commitment from the man of my dreams) but I think most women would benefit more from dating lots of men until one stands out and then slowly, as things develop with that man, move on to the other levels of circular dating.
Really the only thing that feels very discouraging to me about your take on it Evan is that you say it “doesn’t work”. It actually does if my relationship counts as one that works. I understand if you believe it “shouldn’t” work (because I feel the same way) or even if you don’t think it will work most of the time. But it does work. I’m living proof.
In any case, I wanted to share here what I posted on Rori’s blog so that you can see what happened with J and me. Hopefully it will resonate with some of you, but even if it doesn’t, I hope you will never the less enjoy hearing my experience and seeing how incredibly loving a couple can be, regardless of how dating is “supposed” to be done.
My posting from Rori’s Blog:
On circular dating: I can see where some people would be very hesitant to believe it can be a good thing and I can see where men, especially, would hesitate to believe it can benefit their lives.
One thing I can tell the ladies from a positive experience with it in my own life is that when you meet a man who is fearless of any real or perceived “competition” because of your circular dating, when you meet a man who is confident in the knowledge that the two of you are perfect and right for each other and when you meet a man who will do everything in his power to make sure he doesn’t lose you to some lame guy you went to dinner with last night….well…ladies…it is absolutely the most incredible feeling in the world. Knowing your man refuses to lose you and refuses to walk away and refuses to give up and refuses to believe that any other man in this world could possibly win you away from him and refuses to let you believe it either and refuses to let someone else fill up your time when HE could invite you out first…WOW! That’s pretty much all I can say…WOW! For me, I know J wasn’t about to let anything or anyone come between us. I’m not sure everyone gets to know that. I think we all believe it, but I personally KNOW he won’t let it happen because I KNOW he didn’t.
One thing I can tell the men here from a positive experience J had with it is that when you are feeling confused and unsure, when you are crazy in love and yet scared out of your mind to move forward, when you are hesitant to give up your perception of “freedom” or “bachelorhood” and when you are with a woman who takes her life into her own hands and makes a commitment to herself to go out there and get the life of her dreams and drives you crazy with desire and love…well…sometimes, in a really good way, it can cause you to feel something so different from the feelings above. Sometimes, it can cause you to know, without a doubt that this woman is the best, most amazing thing you’ve ever held in your arms and that you will NOT let her go. And sometimes, you will look back and wonder if you would have ever realized that had she not put a touch of fear in you and inspired you to tap into the confidence and power you always knew you had. And sometimes it encourages you to look at that woman and lose all fear because once you determine she is the one for you and nothing or nobody is going to stand in your way, sometimes, that can be the most freeing feeling of all…a feeling of freedom that WAY outweighs the single and free feeling.
Anyway…that’s how J and I experienced it and that’s how we feel about it. After listening to so many people bash it though, I am even more grateful that I am spending the rest of my life with probably the most confident, loving, amazing, manly, strong and fearless man EVER. No wonder he isn’t intimidated by other men!
(okay…that was a little biased…)
Much Love,
Mercedes
Mercedes says
Oh…I forgot to mention…those later levels of circular dating (like flirting and meeting men) will really help women change their vibe (and give them a bit of an ego boost) anytime they are feeling insecure or scared….even while married.
I don’t know how to explain it except to say we all know that twinge of insecurity when our man pulls away even the slightest bit. Like he isn’t being as affectionate as he used to be or he’s off on his own train of thought and not listening to us as intently or he’s spending a ton of time playing video games, etc. Our crazy voices can get us all messed up and wondering “what’s wrong” and “what did I do” and “I must not be good enough” and “is he cheating on me” and “I know I’ve gained weight but…” and “oh God I need to call my sister!!!!”, etc.
When those voices pop up, if we are already in the habit of and comfortable with the concept of circular dating, then instead of listening to the negatives or getting anxious over the “what-ifs”, we can instead lose our insecurities by getting out there and flirting, having fun, meeting people, making eye contact and smiling and enjoying a conversation with some random guy and remembering (because of his reaction) that we STILL got it so whatever is going on in the husband’s mind right now, it’s his stuff and not something we need to worry about. It helps us do what we KNOW we’re supposed to do…and that is give him time to go through his funk and not pressure him to talk about his feelings to us (even though, as women, we REALLY want to talk about his feelings).
It’s okay…we can flirt…and when we do, we come home much more relaxed and maybe glowing a little and really, a whole lot less concerned about how much time he’s going to spend watching tv tonight. Actually, this is about the time (you know…when WE’RE the ones that want to go off into our own heads and smile and think about our day) that he wants nothing to do with tv or video games or computers or working in the garage or whatever. When we circular date in this way…even while we’re in a relationship and even if that relationship is a marriage….our entire vibe changes and that man has no desire to leave us alone. Something about us attracts him and it doesn’t matter at what level we are circular dating…something is crazy hot about us and those men are very, very interested in being a part of our day.
The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man. 🙂
The second a woman nags about how little attention she’s getting from her man, the less attention she gets from her man.
I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. I do know it really can work…even though it makes zero sense that it would and I really know it worked for me.
Okay…hopefully I’m done with this topic now. LOL Thanks for sharing the space here for my opinion and experience.
Much Love,
Mercedes
Evan Marc Katz says
Mercedes: I appreciate you taking the time to explain the nuances of Circular Dating. I think that will certainly clear up any ways in which I might have misinterpreted it – and, as a form of self-love, I agree, it’s invaluable. But can you still not concede the validity of my two main arguments against CDing? It’s not that everything about it is “wrong”, but rather that, when you have a quality, relationship-oriented boyfriend, a) expecting him to “know” he’ll marry you within the first year is unrealistic, and b) expecting him to be cool when you “circular date” at that point is unrealistic. Those were my only two points and they seem to have been glossed over in your posts. Please don’t forget; the exception doesn’t prove the rule. In other words, I can foolishly push too hard for sex on the first date – and still ultimately get the girlfriend – but it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. You can tell your boyfriend you’re seeing other guys – and just because HE stayed, doesn’t mean most guys would. Would appreciate you addressing my two logical problems with CDing instead of merely explaining that I don’t understand it. Thanks for your contribution.
Mercedes says
I’m so sorry Evan…I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t understand. I only meant to say that on this blog and on Rori’s blog recently, I didn’t think the actual deep meaning and use of it had been explained well enough for outside readers (meaning those who don’t follow Rori so have no experience with it) would fully understand. My words were poorly chosen and I did not mean to gloss over your arguments at all.
I agree with absolutely every single word of this:
“a) expecting him to “know” he’ll marry you within the first year is unrealistic, and b) expecting him to be cool when you “circular date” at that point is unrealistic.”
I think there’s about ZERO ability to even speculate on when a man will know he wants to marry you. This is where Rori and I disagree. She thinks they know much sooner than I think they know. Reality is, each man is probably different in that regard and I’m guessing, depending on the man, it ranges somewhere between one second and one hundred years. We’re all so different where our hearts are concerned…how could we possibly put a time on something like that?
As for the guy being cool with it, J was not cool with it at all. Hated it. Every single second of it. Did not want to lose me and started taking up so much of my time that I didn’t have time to see other men anymore. I doubt he would be cool with me flirting right now if I was feeling closed off from him. I doubt very much he would be cool with knowing I’m striking up random conversations with men when I want an ego boost and he’s been lost in a video game for the last few weeks.
But he does notice the difference in me. And he does love me. And he does not want to lose me. Cool or not, he notices my vibe change when other men are paying attention and the sort of “competitive, fight for the girl, may the best man win” attitude comes out. In short, when my vibe changes, he steps up…even when he doesn’t know or doesn’t like the reasons for my vibe changing.
It’s like when a guy flirts with me right in front of him. His instincts cause him to step it up a notch. He gets a “she’s my woman” vibe about him and just so you know, it’s killer sexy when it happens. 😉
Grrrr…I’m frustrated…I wish I had better words because I think I’m offending you and I don’t mean to at all…I just want to explain what it does for me.
And I do agree, not all men will stick around for it. I don’t think I agree that MOST men wouldn’t (but that’s really hard to say). But I do believe that when a man is truly in love, he won’t let her get away.
I can usually write quite well but for some reason, I struggle with finding words that feel better to you because I want my contribution here to be so much more than “merely explaining”. This is my life and my heart and my love we’re talking about. I just want to let people know it can be as good as they imagine (even better) and it doesn’t matter how the dating process went.
Did that help clarify where I’m at?
Michael17 says
I can’t comment one way or the other about the effectiveness of Circcular Dating, except that men are indeed hardwired to try to win competitions with other men.
As a guy, I’m uneasy about Circular Dating, or at least how you go about it, for a different reason though. The guys you are CDing with (I’m not talking about the primary guy in your life, I’m talking about the others you are letting take you out), aren’t going to be too happy when they realize that you accepted their invitation for dinner when you weren’t really available. And for good reason–they were used by you.
Ladies, men are taught to be chivalrous. I hope you don’t take advantage of that in ways that it wasn’t intended for.
The flip side to CD is what is taught by those in the so-called Pick Up Artist Community. The philosophy of many in the PUA Community is to sleep with a bunch of women, spending as little time and money on each one in the process, until they find one that they want to make their girlfriend. To avoid “leading anyone on”, guys are taught to be vague about their intentions even while they are charming the pants off her. Is it even possible for the guys who try this, and does it help these guys find happiness when it comes to the opposite sex? Maybe. Do women like this? I mean, the girls who are having sex with these players were doing it on their own accord, but…
Bridget says
SS, I totally agree. I just have to clarify on one thing, he has actually never said he never wants to get married. He has given me the impression that he wants to get married someday, he is just not ready right now and doesn’t know when he will be. So I guess I hold out hope, but if I was able to date other guys I might not feel like I am being ‘held up’, and then either I meet someone else or he is ready to marry. Whichever comes first. What happens if the next guy doesn’t want to get married either? Maybe I am just not meant to be married because it shouldn’t be this complicated. My brain is exploding.
Mercedes says
Michael17 – When I was doing it, there was no dishonesty…there was no using anyone at all. The whole point is that i was available. Really available. I was not J’s girlfriend. I wasn’t anybody’s girlfriend. I was dating and looking for the man I would spend the rest of my life with.
When I met a new guy, I told him how I felt about being exclusive. You know what’s funny? The all said they felt the same way. I would say I’m not looking for an exclusive relationship right and that I’m dating lots of men and that someday I hoped to find The One and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said they were in the exact same place.
And almost all of them asked me out again. Even knowing I was dating other men.
And J asked me out again. Even knowing I was dating other men.
And as J couldn’t stand the thought of losing me and hated thinking about me having dinner or drinks or whatever with other men, he would fill up my evenings and weekends so that there wasn’t time to be with others. And all the while, he was stepping up. And then he gave me total commitment.
It was all good…not PUA style at all. But…I can see where some women would use it that way. Just want to say that I didn’t.
SS says
Bridget,
Well, there is some guy out there who will want to marry you, and it won’t take him years to figure it out either!
You’re absolutely right, it shouldn’t be this complicated… but to me, that again means that you are dealing with the wrong guy.
I’ll share a little of my own story (and it probably contradicts what Evan says too). I was dating this guy for six months. He knew I was interested in marrying. He said he was as well. Around Month 6, he suddenly said he didn’t know how he felt about marriage. Now, I wasn’t looking for a proposal in Month 6 and was probably fine with waiting two years for him… but, he said that because he was going to school to switch careers, he couldn’t see himself thinking about marriage for at least three years and at that point, he’d have to see where he stood.
Now I was 31 at the time, but that didn’t sound like a good deal to me. Stick around for three years (assuming we didn’t break up before that) for the possibility that he MIGHT want to start thinking about marriage then? I told the truth and said that I was uncomfortable with that period of time.
He ended up breaking up with me.
Six months later, I met a man who proposed to me one day to the year of our first date, and we married seven months later. This month, we will celebrate the second anniversary of that first date… so, we went from hello to “I do” in 19 months.
I’m not saying that everyone has to follow this timeline or that marriage has to happen that quickly. But you know how you said it shouldn’t be “this complicated?” Well, when I met a man who wanted to marry me, it wasn’t complicated AT ALL. Imagine if I had not stated how I felt to that first guy who was saying he needed about three years before he’d think about marriage… I might have sucked it up and still been dating him and hoping for the best…
The Year 3 mark with the first guy would have happened this month as well. Ha ha. Instead of feeling confused and frustrated about complications, I’m celebrating five months of marriage to the best man I’ve ever met — one who didn’t want to get married “someday,” but one who wanted to marry ME as soon as he possibly could.
Diana says
Mercedes #78, very true words … “The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man.
The second a woman nags about how little attention she’s getting from her man, the less attention she gets from her man.”
I think this is a difficult place for most women to reach, especially younger women, and to feel comfortable there, and to live authentically. I have noticed this between my former husband and I. I moved on, living and “dating” the world, so to speak; independent; free; continued raising our children completely without him; no longer a slave to the crushing grief he caused nor emotionally dependent, like a fix, on the deep seated commitment and love I once felt for him. I think he finds me more attractive than ever. 🙂
Mercedes says
Diana: I have no doubt he finds you more attractive now than ever before. 🙂 And yes…it is a hard place to get to and it is even a hard place to stay in once you find your way there.
But for me, fully understanding and applying circular dating (in the deeper sense – I’m not going on dates with other men anymore) is what keeps me there. It keeps my vibe where it needs to be, it keeps my skin glowing and my eyes sparkling and my man turned on.
Okay…there might be other things that contribute as well, but still…it isn’t hurting anything in my life by being open to the attention of others. 🙂
Helen says
Putting aside all the vagaries and stigmas of dating, can’t we just apply the Golden Rule here?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I wouldn’t want my man to be dating others if we were in a serious relationship, so I wouldn’t do the same to him.
It really is as simple as being a bit considerate, and thinking not just of what you want, but of what your partner wants, and of what is the right thing to do. In the long run, in every walk of life (not just relationships), acting with integrity always pays off. Always.
kenley says
In addition to the objections that have been outlined by many posters, my discomfort with CD is that ultimately it encourages women to constantly seek validation of their value as women through men. Her man doesn’t give her enough attention, then get it from lots of other men. That approach just seems unhealthy to me. Am I saying the attention from men isn’t wonderful and flattering and good. Absolutely not. However, I think the healthiest way to be is to know your value without having to constantly seek external validation from men or women.
Mercedes says
Helen: The key is not to be in a serious relationship with a man who isn’t giving you what you want. This isn’t about hurting men. It isn’t about cheating. It is about NOT getting into those situations where anyone hurts. J hated it that I was dating other men, butI also wasn’t “his girl”…I wasn’t hurting him…there is no reason I should have been exclusive with any man at that time. He wasn’t “my man” either by the way…he had every right to never ask me out again. I would have been circular dating but he didn’t have to be anyone I was dating. He had total control over that. All he had to do was stop asking me out. We were not, as I was dating other men, a couple. Instead of never asking me out again though, he asked me out a LOT more…until my time was literally booked.
Kenley: I agree…if this is the only way we are seeing our value then yes…it is a horribly unhealthy way to live. But if flirting and having fun and enjoying the company of others is ONE way to give us a little bump in the right direction then…healthy or not…it can make a girl smile.
If we’re discussing value and how to see value in ourselves, that’s a totally different issue from my perspective. But if we’re discussing circular dating and some of the benefits and some of the drawbacks, then getting a little ego hit is a benefit. 🙂
starthrower68 says
The part of this concept I get is being happy and fulfilled in your own life. I keep myself busy enough doing what I enjoy and being with my loved ones, be they friends and family, that I’m fine with or without a guy. Not in an “I don’t need no stinkin’ man” sort of way, but I have a life. I can be with someone becaue I choose not because I must.
Margo says
Michael at #81, a woman has to be a fool to fall for any of the PU tricks. They are very transparent and juvenile. As posted earlier, I agree with Evan’s stance on CD when you have a committed boyfriend and things are good. One thing bothers me about Evan’s position on waiting for a proposal though: Waiting for 3 years.
The more I think about it, the more I realize I won’t be waiting for 3 years. That’s too long. I believe Evan stated his friends waiting that long to propose. Honestly, I can’t understand why a man feels he has to wait that long to propose to the woman he loves.
Jadafisk says
“The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man”
I don’t think this is actually true… a lot of these “when you don’t want it/aren’t looking for it” adages, IMO, actually develop because when people are otherwise occupied, the same amount of time seems to pass faster – it’s the quintessential example of a person’s ability to regulate their own reaction despite their inability to regulate the behavior of others. What would’ve been nights filled with ardent pining are nights spent with other people being sought after. So crumbs of attention from the “primary target” are now the satisfying finish of a four course meal. Supplementing a relationship with an inattentive partner with other people may end up prolonging a dead end infatuation past its expiration date. That said, before a commitment, it sounds like regular dating – if a family minded woman isn’t dating several different people casually, she should consider it, due to time constraints. After a commitment, it sounds like breaking up. Also, how *is* a person marrying a woman who CDs up until marriage supposed to know if she’s even capable of committing? Is he allowed to date other people until marriage, too? Also, all of this can get *very* complicated and murky when sex is involved.
Mercedes says
Jadafisk: Try it sometime. Walk next to a person you are feeling close to. Want them to reach out to you? Don’t reach out to them. Want a person to lean toward you? Lean away from them. Happens probably 90% of the time. 🙂
I think this is an awesome question:
“Also, how *is* a person marrying a woman who CDs up until marriage supposed to know if she’s even capable of committing? Is he allowed to date other people until marriage, too?”
She most likely doesn’t date other men up until the marriage. She stays open, flirts and circular dates herself but isn’t exactly doing the “hey, sorry, can’t work on the wedding plans with you tonight, I’m having dinner with Bob”. She, when things are moving along with the man she wants to be with, allows him to move their relationship along while still staying open to the world so she doesn’t get so caught up in her dreams of forever with HIM that she ends up putting pressure on him. The post indicates a woman will date lots of men for long periods of time and up until the wedding date. That’s not exactly fair to what Rori teaches but might (I have no idea) be how some women do it. In reality, the woman is keeping her vibe open, having fun, meeting new people (including men) and refusing to let a guy believe he’s got her for the rest of his life no matter what…until he actually asks for that…oh…and sets a date – none of this “will you marry me someday” and then stay “engaged” for several years. Marriage isn’t a reality until the date is set and the flowers are bought…and even then, there’s the backout clause. LOL
As far as sex, for me, I was always sexually exclusive. This is what Rori suggests as well but some women are comfortable with multiple sex partners. I thought that was taking it way too far. In talking with my guy, he did tell me that as much as he hated my dating, had I slept with one of those men, I probably would have never seen him again. He said he was mostly angry at himself that he was not doing what he needed to do to keep me from seeing other men. He would have been shattered had I slept with someone else.
Soooo…guess I wasn’t done with the topic huh? LOL
Venus says
I believe that a woman with a healthy sense of self esteem, self worth and integrity will dump a guy who has persistent doubts about her rather than engage in what appears to be manipulative gameplaying of CD. Why exactly would you want to be with such a person anyway. Either of you. Makes me wonder what happens after the wedding when his doubts of whether he chose “the right one” persists. Whether there is some underlying resentment on his part for being “played” into a position that he was uncertain of. I would dump the guy and start looking for someone who KNOWS how he feels about me without being gamed, pressured or manipulated into taking a position.
To be clear, I totally agree that a woman should have a life outside of her significant other. I just don’t think this should include dating other guys if you are exclusive.
Maeve says
@Mercedes:
”
I don’t know how to explain it except to say we all know that twinge of insecurity when our man pulls away even the slightest bit. Like he isn’t being as affectionate as he used to be or he’s off on his own train of thought and not listening to us as intently or he’s spending a ton of time playing video games, etc. Our crazy voices can get us all messed up and wondering “what’s wrong” and “what did I do” and “I must not be good enough” and “is he cheating on me” and “I know I’ve gained weight but…” and “oh God I need to call my sister!!!!”, etc.
“When those voices pop up, if we are already in the habit of and comfortable with the concept of circular dating, then instead of listening to the negatives or getting anxious over the “what-ifs”, we can instead lose our insecurities by getting out there and flirting, having fun, meeting people, making eye contact and smiling and enjoying a conversation with some random guy and remembering (because of his reaction) that we STILL got it so whatever is going on in the husband’s mind right now, it’s his stuff and not something we need to worry about. It helps us do what we KNOW we’re supposed to do…and that is give him time to go through his funk and not pressure him to talk about his feelings to us (even though, as women, we REALLY want to talk about his feelings).”
I can honestly say that this has never, ever, ever happened to me.
If a guy pulls back–be he date, boyfriend or husband–first response: “Huh. He must be distracted by something at work/school/with his family.” If he stays pulled back, I ask him what’s up. If he talks about it, cool. If he doesn’t and it perpetuates, then I start to wonder if we have a trust issue. Regardless, it has lots of time to work itself out, and if it doesn’t work itself out and the behaviour is something I can’t tolerate–not just distance or ‘space’ but meanness or callousness–the relationship is dying, and I end it.
There’s nothing wrong with distance in a relationship, per se. Everyone needs their own hobbies, time, friends, including video games, so long as they’re doing their share around the house and with the bills, I really don’t care. I can’t imagine being in a relationship with someone and having them withdraw a bit and automatically assuming there’s something wrong with me.
So from the first, I don’t need to get out there and rid myself of those insecurities. Because they’re not there.
But more importantly, there must be at least 500 different ways of dealing with insecurities other than papering them over with attention from other men. Be a rock star at work. Write a novel. Run a marathon. Use that time and distance you’ve suddenly got in your relationship to actually accomplish something that doesn’t rest on the validation you receive from other men (I guarantee you, someday you’ll be old enough that it won’t matter, you’ll be invisible to most men).
Also, this ‘women like to talk about feelings and men don’t’ thing–it’s so tiresome, and such bs. Can’t we just drop it already? In my experience men like to talk about their feelings just as much as women do, if they’re with a woman they can talk to–and I’ve even read studies that show that men in relationships who don’t talk about their feelings aren’t disinterested, they’ve just learned to shut up. I think it does a disservice to men to act as if all men will never have the fluency or facility with feeling that women do.
Pokadots says
What I have a problem with in the Rori way of CDing…and I could be inaccurate but I don’t believe I am as I have come across this on her blog, is that CDing should be like a full time job. The process goes where if we decide to CD then that is first priority, we accept every date and even if we have a program to go out with a friend or girlfriend that should be cancelled in order to accept the date. Yet you hear many other coaches like Mirabelle Summers, Amy Waterman, Christian Carter and so and so forth telling you not to do that. That if you have previous engagements with friends you do not cancel them to go out on a date as that is actually acting out of integrity, and that dating should not be like a job but an opportunity to practice (Rori says this too) to connect with another person beyond a friend level. Yet at the same time Rori also says (and she’s not unique in this as many other coaches say similar things, so this is not a complaint) not to drop everything to pick up his call, don’t call him first and don’t change your plans…so I always got very confused in terms of her concept of CDing. In fact, many of RR’s concepts feel very confusing to me, to be quite frank.
Karl R says
Mercedes said: (#93)
“She most likely doesn’t date other men up until the marriage. She stays open, flirts and circular dates herself”
Are you okay with your boyfriend flirting with other women?
In previous threads, a significant portion of the women on this blog believe that it’s inappropriate for a boyfriend/husband to flirt with someone other than his girlfriend/wife. Other women expect their boyfriend/husband to flirt with other women, because they flirt with other men. My fiancée and I fit into the second category, and neither of us is bothered by it. Flirting with others isn’t a problem, as long as the woman is comfortable with her boyfriend doing the exact same thing.
But I can’t see a relationship succeeding if it’s only acceptable for one partner to flirt with others (regardless of which partner is flirting).
Mercedes said: (#83)
“When I met a new guy, I told him how I felt about being exclusive. […] I would say I’m not looking for an exclusive relationship right and that I’m dating lots of men and that someday I hoped to find The One”
I realize that J gave you “total commitment,” but I’m not sure what you mean by that. Did he tell you that he wished to date exclusively? Or did you keep dating until he did something more than that?
When I told a woman that I was interested in dating exclusively, and she declined (in order to continue dating others), then I had already gotten my answer to whether she was a potential long-term partner. I sometimes continued to date her non-exclusively, but I was looking elsewhere for an exclusive relationship.
For most people, dating exclusively is one of the steps towards getting married. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a greater commitment until a woman was willing to date exclusively.
Mercedes said: (#83)
“he would fill up my evenings and weekends so that there wasn’t time to be with others.”
Given my work schedule and other commitments, I can’t fill up someone’s time to that degree. I live with my fiancée, and she could find time for a few dates per week without me ever noticing.
Mercedes said: (#93)
“refusing to let a guy believe he’s got her for the rest of his life no matter what…until he actually asks for that…oh…and sets a date”
Again, I’m a bit unclear as to what you mean by this.
By the time my fiancée and I had dated six months, we felt it reasonbly likely that we’d end up getting married. At that point (and even now) it would be possible for me to lose her, but only if I acted in an unacceptable manner … and similarly, she could lose me if she acted in that manner.
Both of us were upfront with where we stood, and I don’t see how either of us would have benefitted by trying to cultivate uncertainty within the other person.
Mercedes said: (#93)
“Want them to reach out to you? Don’t reach out to them. Want a person to lean toward you? Lean away from them. Happens probably 90% of the time.”
Really? I must be in the other 10%. And I’m not sure how you connect with another person if you can’t move towards each other simultaneously.
Why would a guy allow himself to become emotionally invested if the woman is giving signals that she’s keeping him away?
Early in our relationship, my fiancée openly demonstrated that she was keeping some distance. There’s only one reason I didn’t move on during those months … the sex was good, and I was enjoying our fling.
Because of that, she ended up falling in love before I did. Since she was outwardly maintaining some distance, I maintained some emotional separation. On the other hand, I wasn’t being outwardly distant, so it felt safe for her to emotionally connect.
During the first couple months, I considered dating another woman (since my fiancée didn’t appear to be in it for the long haul). I primarily held back because I didn’t want to sabotage my chances with the other woman. I didn’t think the other woman would be too understanding if I started a romance with her while having regular sex with someone else.
And if you avoid reaching out in order to get a man to reach out to you, how is he supposed to see a difference between you and the women who are truly disinterested in him?
Mercedes says
I think I misspoke because I’m not sure how I managed to communicate “closed off” instead of “leaned back” with an open and accepting vibe. Really sorry for the difficulty in finding the right words here.
I’m very, very happy for those of you who have it all together. Very, very VERY happy for the ones in love and secure (because I know how awesome it feels) and sending AWESOME vibes out to those of you who are waiting for love to come your way.
Wishing you all the very BEST of everything…no matter how dating looks or feels for you. We’ll all approach it differently and most likely, we’ll all have love in our arms. That alone makes me smile. 🙂
M
Mercedes says
One last thing though…circular dating and leaning back yet staying open aren’t games and aren’t tricking or manipulating. Honesty about where you stand and why are KEYS to making to work. So is, not cheating, but instead, not being exclusive (except sexually) with men who aren’t ready to move forward. Once they’re ready, if you’re in love, I say go for it!
With passion! 🙂
helene says
If a woman falls in love with a man, she completely loses interest in all other men at that point. That’s what happens to a woman when she falls in love.It is unimaginable to me to date more than one man beyond the extremely early stages of dating (ie. the first few weeks.) If I don’t fall for the guy, sure, I might be interested in dating others…. but that would be a sign to me to stop dating the first guy! If I am seriously interested in a guy, how can I possibly DATE other men? What do I have to offer them? What possible interest can I display in them or their plans for us? What genuine connection can I offer guys 2 and 3 when guy 1 has my heart??!
The second point relates to sex – what is this weird american notion of “dating” without sex? That’s not dating, thats being friends. A date is a sexual encounter, at some level or another. In the early stages there may not be full sex but there will be glances, touches and flirting.. then kissing… All dating relationships are essentially sexual or they are not dating as such, they are “male friends I go to the movies with.”
Karl R says
helene asked: (#100)
“what is this weird american notion of ‘dating’ without sex?”
I don’t consider glances, flirting, touching, kissing or even heavy petting to be sex. If none of those were present, I wouldn’t consider it to be a date either. I would say that I went to ____ with a friend.
I think you’re using a much broader definition of “sex” than us.
sassysophia says
Hi everyone – I receive Rori’s newsletter but do not know much about Marc – sorry Marc. The way I understood Rori’s circular dating made perfect sense to me. This is how I took her to mean it though – .
So say I decided to start dating again. I would from the very beginning, date no less than three men at a time to: keep options open, to find out who is long haul material, and not place myself in a vulnerable position of getting attached to Mr. Emotionally Unvailable and his useless friends. All fine with me so far.
Now if I end up really liking one man why should I stop dating the other two? Or not adding different two or three men. Let’s say guy 1 says, “Will you be my girlfriend?” I think Rori would advise that I say, “I’m not looking to be some one’s girlfriend. I’m looking to get married.” And then I keep dating him and the others wth his knowledge of course. And he is free to do the same BUT NO SEX OR SLEEP OVERS OR SHACKING UP with any of them. It is really a smart strategy as you get to know each other and really see if you are compatible without the woman being placed in an insecure position of giving up her body, time, love, energy, to a man who is not offering her a REAL future or marriage.
I understand in our modern era that seems wrong. A woman is supposed to want to be a girlfriend as there is an assumption it leads to commitment and wife, HUGE ASSUMPTION that ends up putting the woman at risk.
Women have been lied to to give up sex, her time, her heart, cause some guy says he loves her. Women how many out there have believed a guy when he says he loves you, wants to get married, he thinks you”wonderful” with big cow eyes and puppy dog tail? Any hands …thousands! Are you married? No to him? No.
And they, including myself, are still single! I have also found a guy saying he loves means nothing anymore. He has to say he’s “in love with you.” Telling the woman I love you is to convince her give sex and there is a possibility of something more concrete, later, at some distant time, when he thinks he might be ready, even if it’s really ten years away, and looks nothing like the woman he’s with, and dogs can vote.
In the old days a woman dated others right up until she was engaged. I watched a BBC movie last night where a woman was proposed to by three men she had been courting (no sex)
I don’t believe in modern love: shacking up, playing house, sex before engagement with a ring, a date, and invites being written. Most men, I feel take advantage of free sex. Men don’t value women who will shack up with them…take a poll. Scientific research says living together no more brings you to marriage than just dating. And MARC I understand is talking about “the good guy” Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label. How many times has a guy pretended to be a good guy to get his way, string some one along, etc etc. Most women don’t have broke hearts from bad guys but men who pretended to be good guys but were really bad.
The good guy doesn’t expect to shack up. The good guy I think wants his woman to be his woman and marry her (if that is what you both have said you want) A good guy doesn’t have children with you and NOT marry you (Matthew McConnehey you have a call at the front desk) types. The only way a woman will truly know is if he gives her a ring and makes it legitimate! And I think that is Rori’s point.
Say I was with a man who won’t commit, I haven’t been twiddling my thumb waiting for him. And why should I? He is also free to be dating.
And if I made the mistake of living with him I would say: “Hey Bob, you’re a good guy, I’ve enjoyed our time together and I’m ready to get married. I understand you may not be and it’s your choice which I will respect. However I need to know (ea. woman will feel diff.) in one week, one month, where you stand on this.” Don’t listen to his sorry exuses. It is a yes or no answer. Please marry me or I’m sorry you’re not the one. And each person gets to go on and find who is better for them AND SHE’S NOT SITTING AROUND and WAITING. I think she should get back out dating. It gives the man too much power and it’s very hurtful to the woman’s esteem all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.
That is what all this is about WOMEN CAN’T NOR SHOULD WAIT AROUND for men to decide if they feel like getting married when they’ve been getting, love, comfort, sex, laundry done (if she doesn’t know any better) the pretense of a couple. Ladies if we all agreed to this that a man can’t have sex, we aren’t exclusive, or we don’t stop dating others until there is a ring, wedding date, and invites sent out, you can BET MEN WOULD STEP IN LINE!
And if he chooses some one else, you aren’t bonded sexually, you haven’t built your life around him, or as emotionally at risk, and still own yourself and self – respect and not waiting for this fantasy relationship to turn into something real.
Now that would be sexual/relationship revolution.
I think modern love is very destructive to the female psyche!
Evan Marc Katz says
@SassySophia
a) I won’t even bother to rebut anything you said. Your post speaks for itself.
b) My name is Evan. Says it at the top of the page.
EE says
There are two understandings of CD in this thread. One is about “dating the world” which means having a full life whether you are in a relationship or not. That could include dating more than one man but does not have to. Different levels of intimacy with multiple dating partners might work for some, but depends on the people involved. For me more than casual dating maybe with some kissing, would not work. Intense intimacy has a way of clouding other judgement and pre-occupying the mind.
The challenge of moving from dating the world into an LTR between two emotionally healthy adults is recovering from the early headrush that causes you to neglect parts of your life for a while, while remaining close. This is about being a whole person with or without a partner and makes complete sense.
The other understanding of CD in this thread is whether to use jealousy and insecurity as tools to manipulate the responses of dating partners. This is about getting someone to make a commitment based on fear and dependency on “needing” another person. That is uncertain and shaky ground on which to build a strong LTR.
Keep clear which kind of CD each post is talking about and this thread is easier to understand.
Lily T. says
“Do women set goals for relationships? If you do, how successful have you been with it? I’d like to know, because if it works for you I think it would be great to share it with other women who may want to try it.”
Here’s another point of view.
http://anonymousmale1.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/why-women-should-set-goals-for-relationships/
Jadafisk says
sassysophia – women are different, though. They want different things at different times from different people. An 18 year old pre-med student doesn’t want to get married and have a baby within the next 3 years. She may not even have enough time for a boyfriend. She probably wants to date and have sex, however. And if this type of Lysistrata scenario occurred, you best believe that men who DO NOT need to be married or in relationships would step in that line and destroy the lives of whoever was unfortunate enough to pull their card, like they used to. They’d shuck and jive long enough to acquire the commitment, then act out. A world where permanent bachelor types are allowed to get the amount of sex they want from the women who want to give it to them (they do exist, it isn’t just all male schemers and female dupes) without making false promises about commitment and/or wrecking any homes is best for everyone.
Karl R says
sassysophia said: (#102)
“all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.“
When my fiancée and I have sex, she feels that she has received the same benefit that I do. (And she felt the same way back when we started out just having a fling.) When we provide emotional support to each other, she feels that we receive equal benefit from the nurture. She feels that we benefit equally from our mutual love.
Take a minute to consider the radical difference between her viewpoint and yours.
To you, the man has received three benefits for free. To my fiancée, she has reciprocated the same benefits she has received. That difference has profound implications to the entire nature of the relationship.
sassysophia said: (#102)
“Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label.”
You’re having difficulty finding the good men, because they’re deliberately avoiding you. I mean that seriously.
It seems very important to you that a man recognizes your value and the value of your contributions to a relationship. The good men (the ones who recognize your inherent value) will quickly realize that you have completely devalued their contributions to the physical and emotional intimacy of the relationship.
Would you tolerate that attitude in a man?
Do you expect that good men would be any more tolerant of that attitude?
Pokadots says
I completely agree with Karl’s post to sassysophia. The whole post gave me the heebejeebies. The entire point of view about dating is all to “keep men in line” and giving her the ring in order to show legitimacy and getting the man to value you is so dinosaur and not workable. The whole point of being in a relationship is to grow and give and take your best. It can be the most wonderful thing if YOU have the right mindset. Marriage nor a ring is a garauntee that he “values” you or even loves you or is IN love with you. The whole point of coaches like Evan, Christian Carter, Mirabelle Summers and Marie Forleo is to gain an emotional strength, endurance, and fitness so that you bring that to the relationship table. What you bring is just as important as what you will get. Those who are flabby emotionally have no business being in a relationship period. It jars me that there are still so many women who date simply to get their exterior needs me rather than to find real true love. And true love is not about getting something from the other person regardless of what it is. I can’t help but feel like telling women to grow the H up and get over yourselves.
AB says
When I first read about CDing just as your readers here , I felt shocked and thought it was weird . But that was before I really learned what Rori was saying.
Circular Dating is not something a happy contented woman in a great relationship would want to do , nor would Rori advise it.Except to “date herself” perhaps …
However a women , for example, in her late 30’s who wants marriage and kids and is being offered longstanding girlfriend status instead , even by a good man, needs to think about exercising her options. This has nothing to do with making the guy dance to her tune. This is about her going for what she wants and needs in her life. She has every right to seek happiness , and whatever her time line, she has a right to honour that , just as the man does.
She can stay put , she can walk away (and he may be a really good man!) or she can take the third option of not chucking out the whole relationship , but to allow him extra time to decide about the next 35 years while being true to her own feelings of fear and frustration and taking action to feel better.
CD’ing is not about multiple sex partners nor about recruiting “competition” to spur him on. CDing is an ATTITUDE of mind where she moves from frustration and fear and unmet needs, to opening up her options and taking responsibility for herself. This must be open , honest and NON manipulative. CDing GIVES him all the time he needs to decide .
She has to be prepared to lose him.
She has to be prepared to meet someone else who IS ready.
This scenario is actually not the main use of circular dating, as I see it .It is mostly used as a way of meeting and getting to know men without pressuring them to create an “instant” relationship. When a girl is CDing this allows a man to know that she is NOT pinning her dreams on him, she does not have him in her sights , and she really and honestly is just looking for the best man for her .
It totally stops all that pressure on early relationships to be Going Somewhere. It also allows a girl to wait for sex as the men understand she is not exclusive and therefore not ready to sleep with them .If the man decides to go further and step up his interest and she accepts him she can then decide with him when to become exclusive and sexual .
I am currently CDing 3 great guys. They all know I see men friends. There is no sex as i am not exclusive with anyone. ALL of them expressed to me they did not want to rush into a relationship . ALL of them are really enjoying the dates and NON PRESSURE that I offer. Apparently its a very different feeling than being “hunted down like a deer in the headlights” according to tonights date.Another told me it was great not to have to worry about how fast to “move on me” as sex was not on the immediate menu. These guys LIKE CDing !!! My only problem is that I like them all and will miss the company of the ones I dont settle with . This is NOT Avoidant attachment style as someone kindly offered above.
This is plain good sense .I get to know the men without stepping into the age old womans trap of spinning a relationship in my head , then supergluing myself into it with sexual hormones.
Whats not to like ?
Twilight Princess says
SassySophia… phew! Rori suggests saying that one line? “I’m not looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married?” Really? So on a normal dating time scale where this question happens of being exclusive, you expect them to ask you to marry them? I kind of wish I could be around someone that actually squeezes that winning line out. I just can’t fathom why anyone would think this is a good idea. It’s mind boggling. You’re being exclusive with a man, just not making it an issue with the law. Why is the boyfriend/girlfriend stage so hard? I’m also kind of curious where sex fits into this CDing theory. If you’re not being exclusive with these men until they ask you for marriage(which… obviously it hasn’t worked for the women above because they’re still dating) when do you have sex? Are you willing to have sex with someone you tell you don’t want to be exclusive with? Or if you do, that could potentially mean that you’re having sex with multiple people. I’m not going to judge you or anyone else for that, but that may have less than favorable consequences. Or do you wait until one of them agrees? Maybe I’m old fashioned(which is weird because I’m 90% sure I’m younger than most of the posters here, not to be rude.), but I prefer the boyfriend/girlfriend stage and then the guy asking for marriage if/when he wants(on a reasonable time scale… not 3 months). Wouldn’t you rather have the option of just breaking up instead of getting a divorce if things go wrong, and there is a good chance they will because you’re rushing getting to know someone. That means you probably don’t know them as well as you should before you make a lifelong commitment. Also, on an emotional level, don’t you feel somewhat detached from someone you refuse to be exclusive with? Obviously not entirely, but considering you’re investing yourself into a few other men that you probably developed interest in, wouldn’t that ruin the whole marriage proposal because you may be torn between which one you like? I don’t actually expect answers to all of these questions, these are all major problems I would have with CDing. I could probably find the answers on her web page that I visited for all of 5 minutes. It doesn’t interest me enough to go there though. Not trying to be rude, but it’s true.
AB- if a guy states that he isn’t ready to rush into a relationship what makes you think he would want to skip the boyfriend/girlfriend stage before marriage? Key phrase- “I don’t want to rush”
But please tell us how they respond.
I would really like to know how the men respond to the “I’m not really looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married.” In 3 months you should know what their intentions are as far as longevity is concerned. You, like everyone else, just need to learn to be patient! 🙂
AB says
re 110 ..with respect , who said I wanted marriage?
This is not about marriage, its about having the form of relationship YOU WANT. As Roris web page is titled in fact , “Have the Relationship You Want”.
I wish you had several hours to read the many excellent posts she has made on this subject, as 5 minutes cannot convey it clearly.
Its about not having the connection you DONT want. Its about building self esteem , stopping obsessional thinking, over functioning and counteracting oxytocin bonding and habituation (hormonal addiction) to Mr Wrong .Its about making sure you find a man who wants what you want . Its about choosing to have what you choose to have, not what is reluctantly given .
Patience? Like I said I have all the time in the world , and my dates have as much time as they need.I dont feel frustrated and I am not waiting on someone else to “want ” me enough to be committed ..wow its so liberating (I am open to a committed forever relationship to see me into middle age and beyond- marriage is optional) I actually have a serious man courting me who I was once in relationship with many years ago. He knows what he wants with me. He loves that I am taking my time. I am still deciding as the other two also have a lot to offer .I reiterate that these men know and LIKE the fact there is NO PRESSURE on them to come up with a relationship of any type. As I am not sleeping with them I actually am getting to know them before supergluing my heart to anyone.
I have been successfully married and my husband also knew what he wanted and acted fast to offer marriage. I agreed to a 12 month engagement to be sure of our feelings. At this time I was automatically CDing but didnt know what it was called back then. I just did what my mother and grandmother did , it worked .
Rori teaches that I am a prize , and yep , she is right!! I am no longer someones default position.
I respect Evans excellent discussion about how to understand how a man thinks , and his time line, and i agree this operates for a lot of guys exactly as he says. I agree that some men wouldnt like it if their girlfriend decides she is not getting what SHE wants and wants to meet other people . But both parties have a right to have their needs met . And I dont want to think like a man .
I dont want a man who doesnt know what he wants with me after a reasonable period .This is not 3 months . Please read Roris stuff before making it up. There is no time mentioned She states that it takes 3-6 months of regular dating to begin to know each other, to even know if you are suited. Why cut yourself off from other men during this time? You and your man are entitled to take ALL THE TIME YOU NEED to decide what you want with each other.
I find older guys know exactly what they want and will have the life experience and courage to go for the woman that offers independence , intimacy and total openness about her feelings , just as Rori suggests. There is no need for excuses and delay tactics . To quote CD guy, ” I cant leave you on the market for too long you are sure to be snapped up !” Ok , I am 51, menopausal with health issues :):):)
It sure works for me!
Annie says
Oh Geez!! I just read Rori’s advice. It was painful, and didn’t even make much sense.
How do men put up with this? It’s babble…plain and simple. I’ve spent way to much time around men perhaps, I don’t get this at all.
The big blind spot for women, is sex. They keep having it, keep getting hurt and keep “giving it” as though it’s something they give to a man to get his affection.
And men keep saying, until we get sex, we don’t even feel like we are dating, so women have sex, get hurt…get used and then blame themselves and get themselves into this ridiculous overly emotional state, where they are completely irrational.
Ladies. Stop having sex and date. Then you can keep a clear head. Best dating advice ever. 🙂
Laine says
Sassysophia at 102.You have a hidden agenda. I met a guy a long time ago, we just dated each other and were honest about that. We fell in love, married 9 months later, married 18 years, 3 beautiful children. So it does happen. But not when you have a hidden agenda!
southrnphoenix says
First, I will admit I have not yet read the comments, but I just had to say one thing: after a man agreed to be exclusive with me, even though there has been no proposal, if I found out he was seeing other women, I would drop him like a hot rock. Really, how could I ever expect my boyfriend to be cool with me dating other men if I wouldn’t be cool with him doing the same? That has to be the biggest double standard I have ever heard of.
kenley says
I understand early on that a woman may want to date multiple guys to help her avoid obsessing with one. My issue is a practical one. Currently, I am dating two guys and between work and other parts of my social life, I am having a hard time juggling two men. I can’t imagine dating three or four. As much as Rori says it’s important to have a full rich life that involving friends, family, and other passions, if you are dating three to four men, I’m just certain how one fits ALL that in.
I guess at the end of the day, people ultimately have to do what feels right to them.
Lydia says
GREAT article! I found you through Rori’s blog. CD does have it’s place, I guess, but my guy demanded exclusivity after just a few weeks, even though he wasn’t commiting to a long term relationship. EVERYTHING you said makes sense to me.
SMC says
I discovered Rori’s website after becoming single when I ended my 23 yr long marriage and entered the dating pool for the first time since high school. That was 3 years ago. Her blog was boggling to me but I tried to adapt to some of the concepts. I knew I needed to be single for a while and not jump into another relationship right away. I wasn’t even looking for a relationship but the VERY FIRST guy that I said yes to go to dinner, ended up becoming boyfriend many months later. However, he didn’t want to be rebound guy so he encouraged me to go out with other people (circular dating) but this was in the very beginning of our relationship, both of us not knowing where it was going to lead us. So, as I spend the next year just exploring the world around me, meeting people, going out with people, more importantly, making friends, he and I keep growing closer and closer while we’re just dating. But then a time comes where you draw the line and cross over from dating to being boyfriend/girlfriend and that circular dating isn’t appropriate anymore.
During that time, I was disturbed that Rori’s blog said that it was okay for me to CD but that he couldn’t. Such a double standard!!
In my personal experience, the CD thing is great when you are truly single. Yes, you need to try different people out and see what suits you best. But once you start going forward with one of them, you can’t keep on CD’ing while giving him a threat that until there’s a ring on the finger, I can do what I want! I tried that for a while and all that did was drive a perfectly good match farther away. I honestly believe that if I hadn’t tried the CD concept, we would have accelerated our relationship instead of creating set-backs. Now, 3 yrs later, I have some experiences and baggage that would have been better off left alone. I now have to deal with the emotional connection to my CD actions as well as deal with the fall out of those who I CD’d with, some of home hoped to win me over and created problems for me as I tried to let go of those people. We are dealing with real people with feelings and emotions and we can’t just run around and treat people like they are a objects that we can use. It is just very selfish.
And I’m happy to say that almost everything that Evan wrote in this article is unfolding in my life with my boyfriend. He’s telling me that he wants to be married but that he needs TIME to be sure and that he doesn’t want to make a mistake. And that if I had kept CD’ing, for sure that would have ended our relationship since I wasn’t alloting him the time he needs. I am NOT in a hurry to be married anyway!
I think its sad that Rori would take a concept and try to adapt it to all situations. It might work for one but it won’t work for ALL situations.
Joe says
Sounds to me like the whole hullabaloo is a misunderstanding over the name “Circular Dating.” Rori has co-opted the word “dating” for parts of her system that are not actually dating. Non-readers of her blog call it “having a life” and don’t even remotely relate it to dating.
LC says
The problem with “committing” to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married, and many men will string a woman along for as long as possible before marrying her. So it’s important for a woman NOT to get serious or commit to someone who’s not committed to her. People sleep around so much these days, and dating should be getting to know the man so that you know that you’re compatible. Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted. A good man with good intentions would never treat a woman like that and take her for granted, but there aren’t that many good men or women around these days or Rori wouldn’t have a job. Plus, our grandmothers/mothers NEVER went steady with any guy. I was warned many times to never cut off all of my options, never to be a guy’s girlfriend for more than a year, or to put all of my eggs in one basket. My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her. They were married for 50 years and had 5 kids. I even had a guy I was dating tell me about a model he used to date in China, and that she’d have another guy pick her up to take her out right after he’d dropped her off for a date. He said he was intrigued b/c she was such a challenge. So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.
Karl R says
LC said: (#119)
“My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her.”
“So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.”
Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable for your fiancée to have sex with another woman the day before he married you? Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable if your boyfriend had sex with another woman the day before he proposed?
If any person (man or woman) can’t manage an exclusive, monogamous relationship for a few months of dating, then it’s a strong indicator that person won’t be able to manage fidelity through decades of marriage. I wouldn’t waste my time with that person.
LC said: (#119)
“Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted.”
How does that make her “trapped”? She can choose to leave any time she chooses. The only thing holding a woman in the relationship is her decision to not leave. If he strings her along or takes her for granted, she can decide to leave. Where’s the trap?
LC said: (#119)
“The problem with ‘committing’ to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married,”
The woman can decide to not get married. She can decide that she doesn’t want to get married right now. Those are the same two decisions that the man is able to make.
Both people have the ability to say “No,” or “Not now.” I fail to see how you can rationally claim that gives the man more control than the woman. (Though in all fairness, I’ve heard men make the same claims about women being in control when both sides have equal power.)
If you look at a situation like where you and a man have equal control, but you see it as a situation where the man has all the control, then it becomes a situation where he has the control … because you can’t use power that you’re unaware that you have.
If you want to come across as a strong and independent woman, then you’re going to have to recognize when you have equal control of a situation.
SS says
Unfortunately I side with Evan’s, all the points, way to go man!!
I just can’t imagine how xxcked up men who are dating women under Rori’s principles. We are all pretty confused already and it got more confusing with CDing. In general women put too much hope whenever they have great connection with men. A great conversation is just a great convesation, doesn’t mean the guy has to be the BF, let alone the hubby. Just keep enjoying the conversation/the flirts, go back to your (already happy) life, and one day the guy who has THE gut will truly tell what he feels and hopefully his goals without all the pressure. I totally agree, not all women is needy about getting married. Rori is exploiting the opposite to the point where CDing would just “xxck up people mind” (quote from “General Daughter” movie).
Laura says
I think a lot of folks are automatically assuming dating means having sex. It may be true for some, but not all of us. CDing has its place and I did CD through spring and summer after my man took my hand and told me he and his xgf were going to get back together.
Our good-bye kiss lasted 3 hours through a wild thunderstorm, all the way to sunshine and rainbows and eagles soaring on the updrafts and finished with, “See ya Monday.” I assured him I wasn’t making out with anyone else and I would continue to do without sex until he made up his mind between xgf and me. I never brought her up again. She’s totally yesterday’s mashed potatoes!
It was fun, but I didn’t lead any men on. I was upfront that I don’t put out. I got lots of good hugs! Only 1 kissed me, then immediately tried to bed me. Ick. One of them I was seeing is a lifelong friend of my man’s and a good friend of mine. I’m sure he was keeping tabs on me, asking questions my man would never ask himself! He has faded back into the woods now my man has put the xgf behind him and stepped up as my man.
CDing was a great way to not be stuck on a man who possibly wasn’t mine to have.
But to do CDing to the level RR suggests? No freakin’ way! Invite them to my home? I don’t have casual men in my home or go to their homes. I don’t do casual sex or put myself in unsafe situations. Keep CDing until I have a ring or license? Evan is right, where’s the trust and how do you build it while dating around? My man trusted me not to go screwing around while he made up his mind, Kinda sorta. That’s why one of my dates was a mutual friend? lol
CDing became ICK! My man and I love each other, we trust each other. There is no value in rattling his cage with CDing!
Shoving these other men off my platter is not enjoyable. Continuing to date them is not enjoyable. Yes, some of us women did find time to date 4-6 men, but there was no emotional investment beyond having fun and exploring friendship. Some were already friends and will continue to be friends. But some had hope for a real relationship and no man like to be shoved into Oprah Guy Friend status.
I have 1 last guy to dump, my DD’s bf’s dad. We’ve been doing “Family Dates.” I love his kids. My man knows about this and is glad DD has a nice boyfriend, but it’s time to take her training wheels off.
LF says
Wow!!! THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you on this one!! I really needed to hear this because I have Rori’ Rayes programs on CD and I’m really trying to abide by them but all the way up to the ring seemed, instinctively wrong to me, lack of trust (in my opinion), so I am happy to see a guy’s perspective because now I don’t have to feel bad if I don’t want to apply her principles exactly..which I actually knew was okay but it is nice reassurance I suppose!
I am not sure I agree with the no boyfriend thing either..I agree you need to be careful but if the guy asks you for this.. and he is sincere..why not? like you said, it doesnt mean you have to stop “looking” and you can always dump him later if it doesnt work out.
GingerSky says
As a follower of Rori’s work and one who’s greatly enjoying the honest communication with Evan’s post, comments on Rori’s page, and all this discussion, I have to say I see some pertinent points to be brought out. Evan, your sharings are greatly valued by me. And Rori is just doing something different.
CDing is not to be suddenly invoked “in a moment of insecurity” with an established boyfriend in a thriving and relatively healthy secure and complete relationship, as I understand it. I agree, that is very hurtful! Rori just sees “girfriending” and “marrying” as two different, usually mutually exclusive tracks (which I agree with in most every case)… and she is trying to reestablish the old fashioned kind of courtship in which no man was *ever* able to consider a woman his own until they were seriously engaged.
Given this difference in approach and outlook, I have often wondered why Rori brings in thoughts from other coaches who hold to the girlfriend track as being valid (who all seem to be men?), since these are in such conflict really. But I guess she just wants to include any and every good viewpoint and input, and rightly so.
So… if you are already a girlfriend of a devoted, wonderful, honest and human man, then I agree that suddenly CDing is *not* a cool thing to engage. Speaking to your insecurity about whether you will marry is fair though. but it seems that almost all the time, if a girlfriend does this she is guilty of scaring the poor man. It is a one-sided proposition (which is how some women saw your description of your relationship with your wife, Evan, no blame, it just wouldn’t be everyone’s bag to have this kind of arrangement or dynamic… although your points are well-taken and very caring, helpful and honest imo). I have been counseling with a couple here in which the man has the same dynamic you do, but his present wife cannot handle it, whereas his former wife (now deceased) was fine with it. Because of this difference, they are both now having to work through old childhood issues of insecurity and maturity that they never would have otherwise worked through. And he is seriously changing his ways as far as how he talks with other women at parties, and how he interacts with them in his body- and energy-work and teaching/counseling practices. She is learning to trust that he really does love her, even though he has been serioulsy distracted by other women a lot.
The present way of society has never been known in any familiar time of history as far as we know, how men can now claim a woman as their own with *no commitment*, no husband-ness, no responsibility, and no chance for the woman to honestly express her desire or need or fear about that — without labelling her openly as a mistress, friend with benefits, prostitute, work-help, patron, moral-support, concubine or other defined role, so she can choose or dis-choose consciously! In my opinion Rori is right (and I have dated a TON in my life and had several serious relationships and been married once now at age 49). The girlfriend track amounts to an ongoing state of the man saying “we’re single & I’m pretty much free, but you’re basically my mistress” relationship. I know marriage is scary, esp for men, and dating is how to find out if you want to marry… but it seems women are always having to cater to a man’s childlike insecurities as his mother would without ever being able to speak to our own without being seen as undesireable and threatening, tedious, troublesome. So who gets to have space for their humanity in the relationship… ? Seems it’s either the man wanting to be free, or the woman wanting commitment, but seldom both.
I think it’s best to always CD, so that any relationship you enter has already been based on that fact (if you are interested in one take from the Christian faith, albeit a youth-targeted one, see Joshua Harris’s books… he also says a man has no right to consider a woman his own until he’s prepared to place a ring on her finger). But if you’re in a relationship with a man who is wonderful, fine. Be faithful to and focused on it! If he is, however, taking you for granted, acting kind of half interested, seeming to use you no matter how you’ve tried to solve it, engagin other women (which does not work, as men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you… old fashioned as that is it’s totally true imo)… if he’s not really there emotionally, etc, then CDing is the answer — or atleast talking aobut the things that will come up if you tell him you intend to CD might bring an answer. It’s not about pushing, controlling or hurting a man — as Rori repeats with *great* frequency. It’s about clearing the decks in your life to see which man is serious & compatible rather than wasting your time if one is keeping you in the fridge as his “girl on tap.”
And it’s about ridding ourselves of that “girl on tap” vibe and energy, so we can becom the best we can be, and be good wife material… and be secure, giving, dependable and enjoyable wives and women for ourselves and all those we ove.
So if you’re the girlfriend of a great guy who is attentive, honest, monogamous, present and connected, and he is getting all those same things from you, then what’s the propblem? Don’t CD. But if you feel used, wasted, in pain and insecure, then talk about it with him and see what somes up from under the surface… and maybe seriously CD.
And remember, if you really read deeply/thoroughly in Rori’s materials and thoughts, CD-ing doesn’t ever have to mean dating other men… it also simply means focusing on the beauty and enjoyable delicious experiences around and in you (as I’m sure your wife does, Evan) so that you build yourself up and are not leaning all your energy, longing, need, self-esteem lack, emptiness and desire on one man so that he is stifled and crowded, and you’re left neurotic, scattered and holding the bag. It’s just a healthy way to relate to the world and deal with things as they are, not as you wish them to be.
Emily says
Amen! Wow, you hit the nail on the head and made some outstanding points! With all due respect to Evan as I 99 % of the time agree with his posts, I find that Evan is not understanding what CD is about, and how it works. I found your explanation of Rori’s principles spot on . I think that just because men are saying, ‘We want the benefits of an exclusive relationship ie boyfriend/girlfriend without true commitment because this is what WE want,’ does not mean that women have to agree to these terms. In my grandparent’s day, men courted women to marry not just to be boyfriend/girlfriend.. WHY?? because women set STANDARDS for men that they in turn had to follow in order to be in a loving relationship– and marriages by and large lasted a long time and were happier and healthier than in this ‘me centered’ generation.. Rori is trying to bring back these ‘old fashioned’ courtship principles to women, so that men realize that NO woman is theirs until they are ready to provide a true and lasting commitment. And until a woman gets this comittment , then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her. I think within the context of dating, if you are falling for someone and realize you are compatible with someone, you naturally become exclusive without having to verbalize that this is happening.. if a man is falling for a woman, he should realize though that she is not truly his unless he pops the question.. until then, he needs to prove himself to her and until he proves himself, then she should not close herself to the possibility of meeting other men.. if a man is truly falling in love with a woman, the thought of losing her would be unbearable I would think.. if he is ‘turned off’ by her dating other men UNTIL he makes up his mind on wanting to marry her, then I don’t think he truly wants to be with her, because he wouldn’t give up the fight to win over the woman so easily
Evan Marc Katz says
“And until a woman gets this comittment, then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her.”
Yeah, good luck with that.
Emily says
Why, Evan? Don’t you think if a woman said to a guy, I really care about you and enjoy spending time with you and want to see where this goes, but I can’t be exclusive unless I’m sure it’s truly going in the right direction, and until then, let’s get to know each other without pressure.. that would be a turn off? If you truly were compatible and meant for each other, why is the ‘boyfriend-girlfriend’ stage even necessary? Maybe I’m being totally naieve and idealistic here, but having been in unsatisfying boyfriend-girlfriend relationships I’m starting to wonder if committing to a man and giving him the benefits of marriage without true commitment is a stage that men say is necessary to ‘figure things out’.. well why can’t men figure it out while you are dating others (without sex being involved.. I know I opened up another can of worms with that)!
Evan Marc Katz says
I wrote a 7 page response as to how I feel. If you’re my girlfriend (not wife) and you’re seeing other people…you’re not my girlfriend. You’re cheating on me. All you have to do is flip the genders over to see what an untenable position you’re staking. If your boyfriend wanted to see other people, you’d think it was a dagger in the heart of your relationship. Yet if my girlfriend says that she should be allowed to see others until I put a ring on it, I’m supposed to FIGHT for her? Sorry, Emily. I know you want to believe in this. I know you care for Rori Raye. I think she’s a delightful, special, insightful human being. I just think she REALLY missed it on this one, and that if you pull this act on a devoted boyfriend of a year or two, you’re going to lose him really quickly.
Karl R says
GingerSky said: (#124)
“men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you…”
And men view women’s Circlular Dating the exact same way. She’s not wife material or she just doesn’t want me.
It’s that simple.
And no matter how long and convoluted your explanation (or Rori’s), the good, decent men aren’t going to accept it. Actions speak louder than bullshit.
Because I know I’m a decent guy. I know how I treat women. And when I want a commited relationship with a woman, I know that I don’t screw with her like that.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“men can now claim a woman as their own with *no commitment*,”
Bullshit.
If we are dating exclusively, than I have made the exact same commitment that I expect from you.
The only difference is I don’t try to claim that an equal commitment is somehow unfair to me.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“C[ircular] D[at]ing doesn’t ever have to mean dating other men…”
And Bill Clinton claimed that oral sex wasn’t actually sex.
If it had nothing to do with dating, then it would be called something else.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“Rori just sees ‘girfriending’ and ‘marrying’ as two different, usually mutually exclusive tracks (which I agree with in most every case)…”
Do you actually believe what you’re saying?
Girlfriending is different from marrying … except for the one time that the girlfriend eventually ends up becoming my wife.
It’s one track. Most girlfriends derail before the “marriage” point. And if you Circular Date, you’re derailing the relationship at that point.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“And it’s about ridding ourselves of that ‘girl on tap’ vibe and energy, so we can becom the best we can be, and be good wife material…”
Bullshit.
If a woman wants me to commit to her while she circular dates, then she’s not good wife material.
GingerSky,
If a man fed you this line of bullshit about why he wanted to circular date, would you believe it?
What makes you think men are more trusting (or gullible) than women?
Liza says
Six months isn’t a long time? Six months is an awful friggin long time if you want to be married. Remember ladies, we are the ones with the expiration date. If we want to have kids we have to do it by a certain time. Men can have kids when they’re 90 years old. They have different priorities and all the time in the world.
What Rori suggests is not ever getting in the boyfriend-girlfriend trap in the first place if we want to be married. It just caters to the men’s needs, not ours.
It is tricky once we’ve agreed on the exclusivity thing , but terms in a relationship are always negotiable. If things don’t seem to be progressing then you’ve got to change what you’re doing.
Men don’t like it, but competition makes them step up for us. The competition quotient has to be there or they have no incentive to take the leap into marriage. Evan here, is just expressing the (lazy) male point of view.
Karl R says
Liza said: (#126)
“What Rori suggests is not ever getting in the boyfriend-girlfriend trap in the first place if we want to be married.”
I suppose you’d also like to get a great job without getting into the “trap” of job applications and interviews.
Most men don’t marry strangers or acquaintances or platonic friends. Men marry their girlfriends.
Liza said: (#126)
“Six months isn’t a long time? Six months is an awful friggin long time if you want to be married.”
As a man, I’d like to be married for the rest of my life. Thirty to fifty years is a long time. Six months is nothing.
At six months you’re still getting to know each other. At six months you’re still infatuated with each other. You don’t know how you’ll feel about each other when the infatuation wears off.
Liza said: (#126)
“The competition quotient has to be there or they have no incentive to take the leap into marriage.”
Evan is married. His wife didn’t circular date. His desire to start a family was sufficient incentive.
I’m engaged. My fiancée didn’t circular date. My desire to spend the rest of our lives together was sufficient incentive.
But I have no desire to be in a long-term relationship with a woman who thinks that running around with other men provides “incentive”.
If a woman (or man) can’t act with integrity and fidelity through a year or two of dating, I expect that pattern will repeat itself throughout a 30 to 50 year marriage.
starthrower68 says
and @ karl 127, i agree with you karl. i have plenty of non-romantic but healthy and appropriate interaction with good men who are more like brothers or dads etc. they are an example to me of the sort of man to look for. circular dating may work better for younger people who are still learning about themselves and the world but i think it might be different for older people who have a little bit more life experience. where i’m at in life, if i meet a good guy and we’re looking gor the same things and the ingredients are there i’m going to give that my attention so we can go through “the seasons of life” together and see if it’s a good long term bet.
hlyn says
AMEN!
SP says
Evan,
I’m curious what your take is on the latest Rori Raye thread. Is a man crazy for bringing up the subject of marriage after three weeks, or is that something one might expect from a guy who’s really taken with a woman? I have friends who have been married within months of meeting each other (and these aren’t twenty-somethings I’m speaking of) who are happily married years later, and known others who have known their partner for years, took years to tie the night and had it end in disaster. Of course I also have friends who dated a year or more before they got married who are happily married years later. This is an ongoing debate for me and I’m just curious what your take is on the subject.
I was recently thinking I’m crazy to believe that a current date of mine might be thinking exclusivity after only three weeks. Then I remembered that you say a man should know after a month – three at the most – if he wants to date you exclusively and if not, dump him. Kind of beside the point here unless I’m incorrect and am crazy to believe this.
Btw, I’ve been following Rori and agree with a lot of what she says, but I tend to take bits and pieces from anyone smarter about men than I feel and do what feels right to me at the time – to varying degrees of success. I agree with you somewhat on the circular dating deal, but there are a lot of guys out there who will keep you at the girlfriend stage indefinitely. Don’t you think there’s some truth to the saying, “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”
Evan Marc Katz says
@SP – What Karl said. And…
I haven’t been reading Rori’s blog, but I know this was the subject of my interview with her in August. As a guy who makes up rules (or, actually observes them in the behaviors of men), I always want you to be wary of rules. There are always exceptions and those exceptions are the ones you’re citing. The person who gets married after 3 months and stays together for 40 years is an exception. The responsible, college educated couple who dated for 6 years before tying the knot in their mid-30s and then got divorced is an exception. Taking a long time to screen a partner is a good idea. Taking no time to rush into a wedding is not. And no amount of exceptions will have me waver from the rule.
A guy who’s talking marriage after three weeks is simply infatuated and out of his head, and shouldn’t be held responsible for the literalism of his statements. He means what he says, all right, he just hasn’t thought it through. He’s attracted to you, he likes you personally, he wants to be married, and he combines all of those statements into something daffy after three weeks like “I think I’m falling in love with you and I see a future together.” Down, boy. That’s just the hormones talking.
Science says that the “thrill” and the “in love” feeling generally wears off in 18-24 months. Which is why it seems highly irresponsible for anyone to get engaged before the thrill is gone. If you get engaged in your honeymoon period, well you’re in for a big surprise when you get married and five years down the road you finally start seeing that he has no sex drive and has a dangerously short temper. You just didn’t see this in the first 18 months because you’re intoxicated.
And that’s why all of the Rori acolytes who seem to believe that a man should propose within 8 months or some such nonsense are ultimately hurting themselves. If you think that you KNOW that HE’s the one after 8 months, why not wait another year to see what other character traits get revealed. Is there any harm in doing so? I don’t think so. But this fear-based worldview (when is he going to leave me? why buy the cow, etc) is simply disempowering.
He needs you as much as you need him. He wants to take his time to make sure he’s not making a colossal mistake. This is responsible decision making. Getting engaged after 6 months to 1 year? Not very responsible. Pretty shortsighted. And the probable cause for most divorces – two people locking it in while in the passionate stage, only to find out down the road that they’re fundamentally incompatible.
Finally, men aren’t with you for access to regular sex, which is why the “milk for free” argument doesn’t go very far. If he’s your boyfriend, he’s spending time with your family, taking care of you when you’re sick, listening to you after a hard day – that’s a pretty big price to pay just for sex, dontcha think? Once you realize that he’s as invested in the relationship as you are, perhaps you won’t feel so weak. Then, and only then, can you take on the stance that you have just as much right to walk away from a relationship as he does, which gives you EQUAL power. And you’ll have all the information you need to make that decision after 2-3 years of dating, not at any point in the first year.
Karl R says
SP asked: (#130)
“a man crazy for bringing up the subject of marriage after three weeks, or is that something one might expect from a guy who’s really taken with a woman?”
At three weeks you’re still practically strangers. At three weeks you’re also still infatuated, and infatuation tends to blind you to a person’s flaws.
The man may be really taken with a woman, but that doesn’t make marriage a good idea. At this point, neither of them have a clue whether they’ll work in the long run, so it’s a gamble if they jump in now.
SP said: (#130)
“I have friends who have been married within months of meeting each other (and these aren’t twenty-somethings I’m speaking of) who are happily married years later,”
When you gamble, sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose.
They got lucky. When the infatuation wore off, it turned out that they still liked each other, they were compatible, and they didn’t become disillusioned because the infatuation was gone.
SP said: (#130)
“I was recently thinking I’m crazy to believe that a current date of mine might be thinking exclusivity after only three weeks.”
Exclusivity is a different matter. I was sometimes willing to date exclusively at 3 weeks or less if I thought the woman had a lot of long-term potential.
Dating exlcusively just means that I won’t date anyone else until we break up (or until we change our mind about dating exclusively). There’s no promise that it will be long-term (though that was the desired goal). Therefore if things don’t work out, I can bail.
If a man hasn’t decided to date you exclusively by the 3 month mark, it’s probably because he has already decided that there’s no long-term potential (consciously or unconsciously). If you confront him on it, he’ll either step up or let you walk away.
SP asked: (#130)
“Don’t you think there’s some truth to the saying, ‘why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?'”
Not in the way the phrase is normally used.
If I want a cow, I’ll buy a cow. If I don’t want a cow, I won’t buy a cow.
If a guy is not interested in a cow (and just wants free milk), you will never be able to force him to buy a cow. You can only force him to get his milk from a different cow.
SP said: (#130)
“there are a lot of guys out there who will keep you at the girlfriend stage indefinitely.”
There’s a difference between a guy who is moving forward slowly, and a guy who is no longer moving forward at all. Learn that difference and you’ll know when it’s time to leave.
SP says
Karl R.,
Knowing when to leave is not my problem. THAT, I’m very good at. I was simply curious what Evans take is on that saying. That being said, I feel good knowing that at three months, I actually had given the man enough time to make up his mind, so thank you for that.
As far as “buying the cow,” I didn’t mean it in the traditional sense, but I do love your take on that, and especially the way you phrased it.
Thanks for the feedback. It’s much appreciated.
SP says
Oh! And another thing (Karl R @ 132) – if, after three weeks we’re still practically strangers, why the heck are we having sex? I mean, I’m WITH my dad on this one. He and his (now) wife (my mom passed away) and she told him they didn’t know each other that well, and he looked at her, looked down at himself and said, “I beg to differ. I’d say we know each other pretty intimately.”
I mean, I’m all for waiting to have sex. But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex. Because sex doesn’t produce as much oxytocin in a man as it does a woman (scientifically proven), so is it better to wait until he’s more emotionally bonded before we start opening ourselves up to bonding more closely (say, 18-24 months?)? Or are we golden if he’s still around after a month?
Karl R says
SP asked: (#134)
“if, after three weeks we’re still practically strangers, why the heck are we having sex?”
Are you asking for the male perspective? I usually decide whether I’m interested in sex within the first minute of seeing a woman.
Details that are important for marriage:
1. Do we want kids?
2. If so, do we have similar views on child-rearing?
3. How well do we make decisions together?
4. How well do we resolve our disagreements?
5. Do we have a similar approach to financial decisions?
6. How often do we like to have sex?
7. Do we sexually satisfy each other?
8. Do you have a shared set of values?
Have you ever known the answer to all of those questions at the three week mark? At the three month mark?
SP asked: (#134)
“But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex.”
Two of the aforementioned questions are generally answered by having sex. It seems that the majority of men won’t be sure about you until those questions are answered.
SP said: (#133)
“I feel good knowing that at three months, I actually had given the man enough time to make up his mind,”
You have given the man time to make up his mind about dating exclusively (instead of trying to juggle two or three women at once). Dating exclusively doesn’t mean as much as Rori seems to believe. It just means that I’m focusing my attention on one woman … until I decide that she’s the right or wrong woman.
The decision is still pending.
SP asked: (#134)
“so is it better to wait until he’s more emotionally bonded before we start opening ourselves up to bonding more closely (say, 18-24 months?)? Or are we golden if he’s still around after a month?”
One woman initially told me that she was not interested in a serious relationships with me; she was interested in a serious relationship with someone else instead.
Three months later she had fallen in love with me, and was somewhat surprised that I was not on the same page (despite frequent sex). I had consciously avoided bonding with her, since she had explicitly told me that she wasn’t interested in that kind of relationship (and she hadn’t informed me when the situation changed).
Men compartmentalize. If a woman wants to hold me at arm’s length (for her own protection), I find it easy to do the same (for my own protection). The only way the relationship progresses is if we’re both willing to get hurt.
If you’re not willing to get hurt, you’re not ready to date.
Cheri says
Karl R said: (#135)
“Dating exclusively doesn’t mean as much as Rori seems to believe.”
On the contrary, Rori says nothing much up to a man proposing means anything at all. Not meeting his family, not sex, not much of anything that women think means the relationship is moving toward marriage means much at all unless there’s an engagement ring involved. Which is exactly the reason she encourages circular dating.
Also, I see a lot of comments here about women ruining a relationship with a good boyfriend by continuing to date. However, Rori encourages women to not be a girlfriend, therefore if someone were to follow her concept to the letter, it would be impossible for her to “cheat” on her “boyfriend.”
Seems to me like many of the commentors on here don’t have much of an idea about what Rori’s theories actually are, or much of an open mind to learn about it before they do comment. And frankly, I feel surprised that since Rori and Evan are friends, that this article doesn’tmore accurately portray what circular dating is. While I haven’t seen where Evans’ flogging took place on the Rori’s blog, I have to wonder if it wasn’t due to a lack of understanding of the parties involved as much as anything else.
No disrespect intended, Evan. I’m not attempting to make excuses for any poor behavior. Simply making the observation that if the misconceptions expressed in the article were expressed on Rori’s blog, I imagine there were many misunderstandings on both sides of the debate.
Evan Marc Katz says
Respectfully, Cheri, if you’re “not a girlfriend” as Rori suggests, you’re not going to be a wife either. What am I failing to understand?
Cheri says
I’m not sure what you’re missing, Evan. Rori’s the expert on CDing. She’s the one who came up with the concept, practiced it and has been happily married to the man for many years. I was simply pointing out a few misunderstandings I saw here around the concept of CDing. As a woman who’s done things your way, been engaged twice (neither engagement occurred less than 2 years into the relationship) and still never been married, I’m perhaps a bit more open-minded about exploring other ways to find a happy relationship than many of the people on this site (or maybe even you). While it was my decision to end things both times and I don’t regret it, I know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over while expecting a different result. I also know that in CDing and committing myself to focusing on my happiness rather than focusing on any particular man (which CDing greatly facilitates) I’m a lot closer to walking down the aisle with someone I can be happy with the rest of my life than I’ve ever been. Will I become a “girlfriend” before that happens? I don’t know. I know that the quality of the men I’m dating now is much higher than any of the men I used to date. I know that I am more authentic, more confident and more open than I’ve ever been. So when I find myself in that situation, I feel confident that I’ll be able to discuss it with him and come to a decision that’s acceptable for both of us. And there will be some communicating about it. Which feels better to me than just hanging out, being cool and hoping he really is a marriage-minded man and a good prospect. I also know that if I were to agree to exclusivity, Rori wouldn’t beat me over the head and say, “no, no, no! Exclusivity didn’t work for me and it can’t possibly work for you,” or anything else that would make me feel “wrong” or “less than” in any way. I hate to see something that’s worked such wonders in my life discredited out of hand due to misunderstanding. That’s all.
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m glad you’re happy, Cheri. I’m just letting you know that men propose to their girlfriends. They don’t propose to women who are dating other men.
Cheri says
Thanks, Evan. Love your way with words and I’ll take that under advisement.
sammie says
When I first looked at this site I was triggered but on rereading I agree I personally found this the biggest challenge in Roris teachings.
Barbara says
Rori has some great ideas regarding the dynamics in a romantic relationship, however, any relationship, especially between a man and a woman, has to be based on mutual trust and respect. Having said that, I also believe that men are “hunters” by nature and need the thrill of “chasing” and “winning over” the women that they love. Rori is really good about teaching that, however, the Circular Dating takes that concept of not being completely committed or available, much further, dangerously so, I would say. I don’t think a woman needs to go that far in order to keep her boyfriend’s (or… whatever we’ll call him 😉 attention and to arouse his interest and a desire to be with her. On the other hand, I often see women who are too afraid to clearly express what they really want from a relationship, ending up dating some loser for many years, only to be dumped by him at the end. So… it all comes back to a healthy self-esteem and knowing what one wants from a partner.
TJ says
Seems like a fair, sensible, and balanced critique to me!
LC says
Most guys know if they’re open to getting married or not whenever they first meet you. That’s why the run off the minute things seem “serious.” Women shouldn’t wait for men. You should date as many men as possible and NOT SLEEP with them! See who likes you as a person and is a good friend to you. My Grandmother & Mother both dated lots of guys, and the special men who actually cared about them stepped up and married them! Dating for years is insane! You’re either committed to making it work, or you’re not, and it’s all very simple. Everyone is afraid to marry the wrong person, but it does no good to act out of fear. Men are mostly just looking for the Bigger Better Deal if they’re stringing you along for years with no marriage. A good man wouldn’t waste your time. Men use women that they don’t consider marriage material to satisfy their sexual needs, and then they move on to the woman they would marry.
Maria Rosa Lucia Isis says
Hello Goddess
You are making a difference sis-star trust in that
I understand your questioning, for me it is resolved by Christian Carter’s question, is it the ring on the finger that we really want, or the quality of the relationship ?
big LoVe all
Maria Rosa Lucia Isis
Dagaz says
i can’t agree more to Evan) for the god’s sake, mean are not cars! don’t reat them this way: oh, i don’t like this model, i will exchange it for another one.
yes, you can get a boyfriend or a husband by doing CD, but hm, i would stay away from the types of men who would fit in such picture. from such marriage, too.
man, relationship, feelings, words, actions – it’s very, very sensitive energy. don’t think about it like a typical consumer. you always will get what you’ve planted: you can’t get the lasting, faithful and loving relationship based on fear, insecurity, demand etc, for what CD is, if you look closer.
P.S. if i would be a man and my girlfriend would start to vent about CD and to get married ASAP, i would break up with her ASAP. because it’s far away from the woman in love and far away from the trusting friend.
to LC (#144).
i have a really hard time to imagine a man who wouldn’t try to sleep with me or at least to try to get more… intimate to me after the first date))) and i’m not a bimbo or vulgar or so, i can assure you.
so, to follow the advice, i should be stuck with first dates forever?
when you are agree on the date with a man, on the second date, on the third one etc – he naturally assumes that i am interested in all aspects of the relationship, not just having a dinner and occasionally holding the hands like a classmates.
…and just in case: i’ve red ALL books of Rori and have listened to all her classes.
some points are good – like to raising self-esteem, but there are tons of ways to do it without being manipulative (i mean CD in particular)
Carolyn says
I never got the impression from Rori that she meant to start circular dating while dating someone exclusively. I felt like she meant starting a circular dating theme in her life, to find who she does have things in common with, who she’d want to date even longer, who she might want to marry, not promising anything to anyone, dropping those who aren’t matching up, keeping the sex out of it because women tend to attach emotions with sex. It forces you to get to know one another for more than a sexual attraction, and frees you up to accept offers of dates from the man who might actually be Mr Right, whom you’d never have met had you been “tied down” with “not Mr Right”.
DinaStrange says
Trust and all, it’s good. But when a man takes his time thinking, whether he wants to marry her or not, woman’s valuable biological time is getting wasted. In three years a man still great catch, while she is 3 years older…
And let’s be fair in today’s world men value beauty AND youth…while women mostly value status and personality in men…think about that. If a man takes 3 years to decide if he wants to marry you…maybe u should be with someone who is gonna make that decision faster.
Dagaz says
Rori’s main idea is: if there’s no ring involved – keep CD-ing. and to tell a man right away, that my goal is to marry.
but, please, the ring cannot be involved after 3 month. or 6 month. or a year. or two and more years. and it’s totally NORMAL.
there can’t be a generalization, for how long couple should be existing, until they merge to happily ever after. every couple is a unique situation and the timing until the final decision might be so different.
and how poor guy would know for sure out of blue right away that this particular woman is a wife material, while he doesn’t know her at all?
so, if the man and woman are dating/seeing each other for a year – by Rori’s advice woman suppose to see other men meanwhile. i cannot imagine, by all means, a good man who would tolerate it. and i can’t blame him.
our tense “omg! time is flying!!!” doesn’t do any good to anyone. by following this feeling we forget to appreciate the nice, teaching, thoughtful moments in the relationship, we simply loose the ability to appreciate the man, because of this selective filter “faster, faster, commit!!!”
chicklet says
dude, sh*t or get off the pot!
Sarah B. says
I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your post and your honesty — Even as a guest blogger going against Rori’s “advice” — I don’t know how i found her but somehow I got on her e-mail list. As a monogamous dater I have to say that the CD principal definitely makes me squirm and I’ve never cared about who has the “power” in a relationship. thank you for offering more reasonable alternatives to “driving off the cliff.” especially “if he’s that bad just dump him.” Well duh. I hope more women find you before their losing their integrity in any relationship or worse yet a really great guy by falling into the lies of “women empowerment.” which is really just praying on our fear, insecurity or providing “protection” from just being vulnerable. Thank you. I’m listening. Sarah
amy says
Yeah, I have a friend who’s been pushing this on me. It’s just the Southern Model, Ev. I wouldn’t take it so seriously. Here’s her problem — maybe here’s the problem with all these dating coaching things: it’s just a clusterfuck unless the men understand the rules too. If you’re doing this in the South in 1950, cool, everyone’s on the same page, everyone gets it with the ring. Otherwise, a guy’s all wtf, and what the woman’s prompting him to do is to make a hasty decision.
In any case, the ring means so little. I’m standing here typing this while wearing my very favorite ring: one that was meant to be a wedding band. It’s gorgeous, carved 18K. (And no, I don’t feel bad about it.) I wear it on my right hand, and get asked about it often, just because it’s so beautiful.
I don’t know. I think it’s dumb. If you want to get married, the main thing is to find someone else who wants to get married and isn’t yet getting measured for a pine box. What I’d really counsel first is finding out what in hell marriage and motherhood actually are — and what stepmotherhood actually is — because boy oh boy, do a lot of women get surprised.
(How bad do they get surprised? I just booked my first vacation-vacation in 15 years. I rented a gorgeous cottage in a secure undisclosed location, and I got local mothers crawling out of the woodwork begging me to take them along. Begging. With desperation. They’re not trying to be funny; these are people who’ve lost themselves, lost their lives, and won’t get a chance to recover them for um years. Thank God the airfare’s expensive.)
N.Dylan says
I really appreciate this view point. My friend just loaned my Rori’s CD’s. There are many wonderful ideas and tools that resonated with me — but as a female the “dating until marriage” felt off. All of my friends who are in successful marriages and healthy relationships, have not done that. It does feel manipulative and contrived. I feel Marc’s views on this are much more authentic. Thanks for your thoughts, Marc!
Heather says
Thanks Evan, Really great post, nice to see a return to sanity and common sense.
kellyduffy says
everyone says something different
Dawn montefusco says
Thank you for writing this. I agree. It’s a hole in Rori’s philosophy. I have only recently begun reading and listening to her, and this particular issue was a red flag for me.
Euterpe says
SP asked: (#134)
“But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex.”
Karl: Two of the aforementioned questions are generally answered by having sex. It seems that the majority of men won’t be sure about you until those questions are answered.
OMG!
tj says
Dating is a fact-finding mission and sometimes we need to deal with people in the “black and white”, not simply based on our fantasies or expectations. It truly breaks my heart that so many have such hurtful dating experiences, but we have to learn how to separate our emotions from our experiential circumstances, superimposing our needs onto others.
We may have to think about how much time and effort we put into making large purchases, weighing the pros and cons and apply this strategy to our dating experience. In the evolutionary sense, perhaps it is all about economics to some extent. I am a woman and I want a loving, bonded, intellectually stimulating relationship just like the next person. I’ve recently ended a situation with a man because I felt that he was not treating me in the manner that a man would treat the woman of his dreams. Ultimately, treating me anything less than that does not bode well if a future was to emerge for the two of us. I think that people should present their best selves in the early stages of dating and if they are clearly not doing that, it is an omen of future maltreatment.
We who seek love need to have expectations for ourselves and expect the same from others. Love yourself first. Enjoy life and open up your heart in all the other ways that count. Perhaps then, real love may enter.
Circular dating should probably only take place in the initial stages of dating. If a woman finds that a man has qualities that she values and a potential relationship seems worth pursuing, putting circular dating to rest may worth considering.
Dating is like finding the ideal job, but remain encouraged!
Marie says
Rori has been misunderstood. It takes a deep conceptual reader to get her. Most people are taking her literal.
Evan is just talking like a typical man. I think “date” has numerous meanings for everyone, but those who realise “date” to Rori, means socializing, get her point.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#159)
“Rori has been misunderstood. It takes a deep conceptual reader to get her. Most people are taking her literal.”
Rori is an author who writes advice, which most people misunderstand (according to you).
You don’t see that as a huge flaw in the advice?
Marie said: (#159)
“those who realise ‘date’ to Rori, means socializing, get her point.”
If Rori actually means “socializing” when she uses the word “dating”, then why doesn’t she use the word “socializing” instead … and ensure that everyone understands her correctly.
By your reasoning, my cousin is good at giving directions. You just have to realize that “left”, to my cousin, means “right”….
Marie says
Karl (#160)
“social date”…put two and two together.
Like I said, there are several words in the english dictionary, which have become and are too wide “umbrella” terms.
Example. The word “Friend”.
*We meet someone today we call them “friend” tomorrow.
*We have someone who’s fun to be around, but not necessarily trusted, yet we still call them friend.
*We have a very trusted buddy (bro or sis from another mother, we say), we still call that person friend!
…..meanwhile, the idea “friend” carries with it all the insinuations of what a friend should be…and that’s why alot of people get burned by our so called “friends”, because we don’t have better broken down conceptions or descriptive words to use.
I have even proposed on my blog, a theory that introduces more terms under friendship to help us define which friend is which. You can read more of that here>
However, getting back to my point, the term “Dating” too, has been over generalized.
Being as, “I’m dating xyz”, could mean > xyz is my boyfriend
or “xyz and I are dating”, could mean> xyz and I are getting to know each other better and like each other
or “xyz and I went out on a date”, could mean> we once had dinner/lunch together.
Even friends (girl n girl, Boy n boy) have dates too!, people have double dates, blind dates etc
>>This generalization has obviously confused and will confuse people who have different expectancies, ideas and definitions of the word. Perhaps Rori can look into that, But like I said, deep conceptual readers would get her point.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#161)
“‘social date’…put two and two together.”
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
Marie,
“actual DATES”…put two and two together.
I think your “deep conceptual” reading of Rori’s advice has caused you to miss one of her points. And that’s the point that Evan and I believe is counterproductive.
Helen says
It’s funny: reading Rori Raye’s advice is like a throwback to the first half of the 20th century. This is exactly what parents advised their daughters and church leaders advised single women: if you are ready to be married and your man isn’t, then by all means, date other men. A conservative evangelical author Elisabeth Elliot was advising this as late as the 1980s.
I’m not saying that this means that the advice is relevant today. But we might want to refrain from saying X is moral and Y is not. This so-called “circular dating” was, after all, at least at one time considered the morally correct thing to do.
It’s just interesting from a historical perspective.
Marie says
Karl #162
Yes! Rori said;
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
But she said THAT about a guy your dating, who’s NOT ready to “go”, while you are! THEN! Yes! you do ACTUAL dates!!!, (and you do them, because you need what the man cannot or is not ready to provide!!! After all, you CAN’T force the man to marry you!!!)
BUT otherwise that case, and even when married, she says and implies that you do what I have rephrased and coined as “social dating”, where in the case of a married woman, you date yourself or appreciate compliments from guys.
Stop being such an adamant Man about the matter. Seems to me you fear that women will come to terms with their true worth and independence, and stop settling for less, or getting hung up on some man, when they are truly, really, worth more than the current terms men dish out to them in our present state of the world.
Marie says
In not so many words………
Ladies, DON’T play marriage with a man if you are NOT yet actually married to him!!!
Selena says
@Helen #163
When I read some of RR’s philosophies my reaction was she wasn’t saying anything particularly *new*. Up until two generations ago, it wasn’t uncommon for women to have one than suitor at a time. Including up until one was serious enough to propose. The marriage minded fellows knocked those who weren’t – as much – out of competition through courtship. Though in those days, waiting to marry until one’s mid-to late 30’s wasn’t what anyone considered optimal and co-habitation without marriage wasn’t considered an alternative “commitment” by most.
On-line dating seems to have brought dating more than one person a time back into vogue. Women are now doing what their mothers and grandmothers did…evaluating which men are “stepping up” and recognizing those who aren’t. Many men may want to wait to marry until their mid to late 30’s, but this can be anxiety inducing to women who want biological children. I can see how continuing to date until a proposal is offered could very well return as a cultural norm.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#165)
“But she said THAT about a guy your dating, who’s NOT ready to ‘go’, while you are! THEN! Yes! you do ACTUAL dates!!!”
So if the woman’s ready for a deeper commitment, and the man isn’t sure, you (and Rori) advocate openly cheating on him. Do you think that’s acceptable behavior if the situation is reversed (the man is ready to propose, but the woman isn’t sure)?
If you do this, the man (if he’s like me) realizes that you lack integrity, breaks up with you, and breathes a sigh of relief about having dodged a bullet (by discovering your lack of integrity before proposing).
Given the same situation, Evan (and I) recommend breaking up with the man … which has the advantage of having integrity.
Marie said: (#165)
“Seems to me you fear that women will come to terms with their true worth and independence, and stop settling for less, or getting hung up on some man,”
I have no fear of a woman doing this to me. If she does, I’m dumping her and finding a woman with integrity.
That’s because I understand my true worth, and that I don’t have to settle for less than fidelity (physical and emotional).
Would you settle for a man running around with other women just because you aren’t committing as quickly as he would like? What makes you expect that men are any more tolerant of this behavior?
If a man tolerates this behavior, it’s because he has no interest in committing. And you’ve just given him implicit permission to start dating other women….
Evan is married. I’m engaged. The men who have made a commitment are saying that Rori’s strategy is a bad plan.
Selena said: (#166)
“this can be anxiety inducing to women who want biological children. I can see how continuing to date until a proposal is offered could very well return as a cultural norm.”
Think about Evan’s advice on mirroring. If a man continues do date other women, you continue to date other men. If he’s not ready to commit to you, don’t unilaterally commit to him….
That advice works in both directions.
I had a woman decide that she wasn’t ready to date exclusively. I resumed dating other women. If a woman is emotionally holding me at arm’s length (for her own protection), I will emotionally hold her at arm’s length also (for my own protection).
Selena says
Karl, please don’t make this about me, it’s non-applicable on many levels.
I’m suggesting that if an increasing percentage of men decide to wait until middle age to start a family – and most women who want a family want to start before they are middle aged – we may see a cultural shift. We may see a return not only to dating more than one person at a time, but also putting off exclusivity until the man makes his intentions (of wanting a family) crystal clear.
Women are becoming more educated in the realities of bearing children over 40. And of the risks of autism related to the age of the parents. Some men may want to delay marriage and child-rearing, but might not that make those who don’t need several years (decades?) more appealing? In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena and @Marie – Please reread my long post again.
Simply put, “You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first.”
If you refuse exclusivity (defined as “you’re my girlfriend, I’m not dating anyone else”) without a proposal, you will never find anyone to propose.
Men don’t propose to women after one month or three months or six months if they have their heads on straight.
And if you think that you can go on dates with other guys when he’s your devoted loving boyfriend, you’re going to alienate every man you date. Just like Karl said.
You simply can’t date another man if I’m your boyfriend. It’s called cheating. And no amount of “deep reading” can justify that action.
You telling me that you’re dating other guys when I’ve been faithful to you for a year and have yet to decide if I want to marry you will simply convince me that you’re too insecure, emotional and clueless to be my wife.
Despite how much I like Rori and how much good she’s doing in the world, dating other men when you have a committed boyfriend is a terrible idea, which will backfire with all but the weakest of men. I do wish you luck if you choose to implement this piece of “wisdom”.
Marie says
Karl #167
>>How many MEN is a woman supposed to break up with before she gets what she wants???
>>How many rounds through different men and heartbreaks is she supposed to endure till she finally meets the man of her dreams???
The woman stays with the MAN, simply because she still likes/loves him, and is giving him time to make up his mind, while she carries on and keeps her life going! (instead of getting depressed or nagging him into the type of commitment she wants).
A good guy, like you claim to be, should and would sit up and realize that since he loves his babe, he’d rather NOT let her go …rather than becoming a frightful rabbit (excuse my description) and dumping her for some dude who will be just ELATED at having her all to himself!!!! (and mind, maybe even giving her the type of commitment she really wants!)
After all, so many Great women (that he may actually really like) do NOT exist, and if he has one…..why dump her for another woman whom he may still not want to give the kind of commitment that she will definitely ask for, and the cycle continues!!!
Evan #169
I support Exclusivity with a man (I like), who is serious about marriage (or the same type of commitment I desire or have expressed to him) and has made such desires known as well (ie not someone who is vague about his intentions)….
….And mind, this “exclusivity” should be granted Months into the relationship, not after a few short weeks of just getting to know each other.
If the guy is deal breaking later on, I support the woman social dating! That shouldn’t be unacceptable to him, cus his actions aren’t exactly acceptable to me as well.
Evan Marc Katz says
To reiterate, Marie: You support a woman “social dating” while she’s in an exclusive relationship.
Here on Earth, that’s called CHEATING.
A man is not “breaking the deal” by not proposing. The deal is that he doesn’t date anyone else. SHE’s breaking the deal when she decides to Circular Date.
There is no way to logic your way out of this. You can’t start dating if he’s being faithful to you. No more than he can start seeing other women while he’s supposed to be your boyfriend. Any attempt to justify this can only fall flat. Men need time to determine whether we want to spend 40 years with you. If you start “CDing” before we’ve decided, we’re going to let you go, not try in vain to save a relationship with a woman who doesn’t understand how relationships work.
Selena says
Evan,
I don’t see this as “going dates with other guys when he’s your devoted loving boyfriend”. I see it as two people who are not on the same page about something important to them. If a woman wants marriage (and presumably children?) and her devoted loving boyfriend is still unsure after a couple years – there is probably a reason WHY he is unsure. I would sincerely hoped they had talked about it before the woman concluded she couldn’t keep waiting for him.
This isn’t about “cheating”, it’s rather breaking up, but leaving the door open. I don’t doubt many people wouldn’t accept the person they loved dating others, but one thing such a scenario is good for is to get the person who’s reluctant to marry to take a good, hard look at why they feel that way instead of stringing their “loving, devoted girlfriend” along for years.
Again, this is NON-APPLICABLE TO ME. I am not in this particular demographic. I just see it as a possible consequence of men putting off starting a family until middle age – the men who don’t need years, or decades “to decide” will be the ones who win the fertile ladies hand.
Evan Marc Katz says
Correction, Selena: Breaking up is breaking up. Dating someone else when you have a boyfriend is cheating.
And no one said that the man is not on the same page about marriage and children. He WANTS marriage and children. He isn’t sure if he wants it with YOU. And the earlier you pressure him with ultimatums like this, the more likely he is to bail.
Rori disciples seem to have little respect for HIS timeline (which, for men in their 30s, is usually 2-3 years), and expect him to KNOW he’s going to marry her within 8-12 months.
Sorry. That’s not how it works.
Oh, and I’m not sure we got an answer to Karl’s query: “What if a man knew he wanted to marry his girlfriend of six months, but she was unsure about whether she wanted to commit to him for the rest of his life? Should he be allowed to start dating other women while they’re in an exclusive relationship?”
Selena says
Nope. Telling your boyfriend you are breaking exclusivity means he’s no longer your boyfriend. Therefore it’s not cheating. Up to him whether he wants to go back to dating you along with others or not. Can’t blame if he doesn’t, but the choice is his.
I’m not a Rori disciple. I do think some men think of marriage within the year time frame. Personally? I think it’s unwise to marry someone you’ve known less than a year. Thinking about it, and acting on it are two different things.
A man wants marriage and children, but not sure if he wants it with YOU. After only 6 mos? Perfectly reasonable. After a year, one would think he would be a little more sure, if not quite ready to propose. Certainly after a year, the couple should be able to talk about it. After 2 years? Something is likely amiss in the relationship. Is the person who doesn’t want to marry discussing what is? If not, why not?
To answer Karl’s query:“What if a man knew he wanted to marry his girlfriend of six months, but she was unsure about whether she wanted to commit to him for the rest of his life? Should he be allowed to start dating other women while they’re in an exclusive relationship?
It would be the same deal. If he chooses to date other women because she won’t marry him, THEY ARE NOT IN AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. That’s what dating other people means. Up to her if she wants to keep dating him along with others. Can’t blame her if she doesn’t, but the choice is hers.
For the record, I believe when people are willing to let go of the person they love because they wouldn’t marry on their timeline (EITHER timeline), they likely didn’t love each other enough to BE married anyway. This, more than anything else is what breaking exclusivity makes clear. People who want to stay together, do so. Those who don’t, weren’t meant to.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Maria “The point is to TRY not to get into exclusivity in the 1st place”.
Ladies and gentlemen, the logic of Circular Dating.
@Selena – When I pointed out that dating others when you have a boyfriend is called cheating, you said it’s not, because it means that they’re not in an exclusive relationship anymore. That’s some interesting parsing. Because I would think that in order to start dating others, you would have to BREAK UP first. If you don’t break up first and then start dating others, it’s known as cheating. At least that’s what women call it when men start seeing other women within the bounds of an exclusive relationship.
Either way, once you start dating others without his consent, the reaction is going to be a negative one. If you have integrity and you don’t like where the relationship is headed, you’ll break up with him, not start openly cheating on him. That is what I advise: leave if you’re not happy.
susan says
to answer Karls question – allowed…interesting term. the question is probably moot becuase if the guy knows he wants to marry his girlfriend he probably isn’t going to WANT to date others.
The circular dating idea – in fact even the DATING idea is relatively new in my part of the world. It doesn’t sit so well with most women here, and men aren’t quite sure what to do with it either. generally the feeling is ”one at a time”. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but i find it hard to beleive it is possible to give the right attention and energy to more than one person at a time. I tried it, it was a disaster for me.
Marie says
Evan #171
You say “A man is not “breaking the deal” by not proposing.”
Oh yes, He IS!!! (because, like any other deal breaking act, there first has to be a deal. For some it might be cheating, for some it might be a legal commitment “marriage”, for some it might even be “social dating”)
My point however, is that its a deal breaker because he knew his woman’s’ desires and time line before hand, and expressed he was on the same page. His later on shunning of her desires, to me, is deal breaking, for that scenario.
Going back to Rori, now, she said when her husband(then live-in boyfriend) did just that….she moved out for a while.
Even though she didn’t state if they officially broke up or not. It’s during this stage that she suggests “dating”, while giving the guy time to re-evaluate and make up his mind.
However, that is for a serious relationship that has involved exclusivity at some point.
Finally, I’d say, everyone has their own point of view to different matters. I appreciate both dating experts (Evan and Rori, respectfully) and I believe their philosophies are providing guidelines (not exactly hard and fast rules) to dating, for ladies all over the world.
I’ve often said, children should be taught guidelines to dating and how to relate to the opposite sex, in high school. Why should they get good grades in maths, english & physics, when most will still grow up to fail poorly in such a basic and primitive act now called dating, because they are left to learn by trial, error and heartbreak.
Marie says
Might I rephrase: Why should they get good grades in maths, english & physics, when most will still grow up to fail poorly in such a basic, primitive and ESSENTIAL, IMPORTANT act now called Dating, because they are (in modern times, at least), left to learn by trial, error and heartbreak.
This topic of Dating is even more important that any other subject taught in school, because we all go to school ultimately to get a job(s). We want jobs above all reasons, to sustain a family (our children)……YET, we are not taught how to Date!!! #sad#
Marie says
In answer to Karl’s query: Yes! Men do it all the time anyway, and most times, they get away with it.
All a guy needs to do is start flirting or giving less attention.
However, the point is to TRY not to get into exclusivity in the 1st place, and not play “owner” when you do not or until you actually “own”. And this goes for both women/ladies/girls, and men/guys/boys.
Out of all the numerous dates and courtship, a woman and man may actually gravitate to themselves and get very close (this is how was done) eventually the guy(or guys) may propose to her, and she may accept from whichever she really wants or likes.
Though, like i said, everyone has a right to their perception or their own point of view.
Selena says
Correction, Evan: Dating someone else when you have broken exclusivity means that person is no longer your bf/gf. And therefore not cheating. You can leave the door open to them to date you knowing you are dating others. Can’t blame them if they don’t want to do that, but the choice is still theirs.
Same answer to Karl’s query: If a man tells his girlfriend he is going to start dating other women because she won’t marry him THEY ARE NO LONGER IN AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. She could continue to date him – can’t blame her if she doesn’t want to, but the choice is still hers.
The thing about ultimatums: you are not only giving one to the other person, you are giving the same to yourself. With the described scenario, the man or woman willing to break exclusivity can’t count on the other wanting to continue seeing them under those parameters, they are prepared to let them go.
I believe if you can’t understand each others “timeline” there is something amiss within the relationship. Perhaps you aren’t such a good fit. Or one of you does not really see the two of you together for a lifetime, but can’t (or won’t) communicate that.
I think 6 mos. is too early to have a timeline. Two years isn’t.
In any event, people who are willing to let someone they love leave their life may not love the person enough to actually BE married to them. True of both parties.
Helen says
I am wondering if, in our debate about Rori Raye’s advice, we could leave out judgmental terms like “cheating” or “integrity.” Can’t we simply acknowledge that in different cultures even within the same country and different times, people view(ed) dating and marriage so differently that they are guided by different notions of appropriate behavior?
Consider what Elisabeth Elliot has to say about this topic, which is remarkably similar to what Rori Raye says, although their backgrounds could not be more different:
“Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right has he to claim her exclusive attention? Unless she has been asked to marry him, why would a sensible woman promise any man her exclusive attention? If, when the time has come for a commitment, he is not man enough to ask her to marry him, she should give him no reason to presume that she belongs to him.”
While I may not agree with her stance, nor her religion, I would judge her from the whole of her life to be a woman of integrity; certainly not a “cheater” in any sense of the word. I accept that many people around me do think as she does about dating and marriage, even if I don’t, and that doesn’t make them cheaters or lacking in integrity.
And what is this but advice for circular dating, though it was written 30 years ago by an evangelical Christian?
So let’s try not to be too judgmental toward Rori and her adherents. This notion is not new, and some people who follow it genuinely believe they are acting in good faith. I think this is one more of those things that two people need to discuss when they first start a relationship.
Selena says
@#181
Exclusivity: Agreeing you both won’t date other people.
Breaking Exclusivity: Openly telling your lover you are going to date other people. And why.
Cheating: Dating other people on the sly when you’ve agreed not to with your lover. Dishonest.
Very clear. Non-debatable. Hyperbole doesn’t change it.
I’m interested in how the popularity of online dating may be changing the culture of dating. In the forums I read, dating multiple people at a time is becoming more the norm opposed to the “one at a time” approach popular with later born baby boomers and Gen X.
There also seems to be variation when it comes to the word, “Exclusive”.
Some believe it means simply dating one person at a time. Nothing more.
For others it means the two of you are a couple. Boyfriend and girlfriend.
And there are those who consider it a ‘sacrifice’. It means giving up one’s options to meet and possibly have sexual access to others one might meet.
And for some it is apparently a commitment they will make only if they feel an engagement of marriage will follow.
I wonder if the novels produced by Gen Y, might end up reflecting similar values to the novels of Jane Austen.
Since no one else is interested in discussing these social and potential social changes – I bow out.
Kathleen says
I agree with Evan Leave if you’re not happy.
With my boyfriend, we commuted 2 hours for a year Then I moved in with him for a year After I moved in all talk of marriage evaporated At 2 years of being with him I let him know I was preparing to leave He thought about it and we got married soon after ( and for the next 20 years) If I had started dating other guys while I was still with him he would have ended it right then.
Helen says
Selena 182: I’m certainly interested, but this may not be the right venue for it, since people come to the discussion with their particular sets of values, and it can be difficult to try to get others to understand anyone else’s differing values.
I did not think Marie 178 was being illogical when she suggested avoiding exclusivity. In certain Christian circles, and in certain cultures worldwide where matchmaking is common, the notion of exclusive dating is very strange. Either a couple is close friends without “sexual benefits” before becoming engaged, or they are matchmade and may not even know each other that well before getting married.
However, the predominant culture in America is one of a certain set of rules when dating. Okay, if that’s what people agree to abide by, that’s fine. But it is worth acknowledging that not everyone around the world (or even everyone around them in their community) follows these same rules. So writing someone off as “cheating” or lacking integrity for not following the same dating “norms” seems a bit myopic.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#182)
Exclusivity: Agreeing you both won’t date other people.
Note: this requires both people to agree.
Breaking Exclusivity: Openly telling your lover you are going to date other people. And why.
Note: you’re saying that it’s okay for one person to decide to change the agreement without the other person agreeing to the change.
Cheating: Dating other people on the sly when you’ve agreed not to with your lover. Dishonest.
Note: I made a distinction about “openly cheating.”
Selena,
Here’s a hypothetical situation:
Tonight I go home and tell my fiancée that I’m going to start having sex with one of the women in my dance class. I’m not breaking the engagement. I’m not asking her permission. I don’t expect her to agree to it. I’m just informing her in advance.
Do you believe my fiancée would describe my behavior (sleeping with the other woman) as “cheating”?
If I follow through on what I just said, it’s still unethical. I would expect my fiancée to dump me. I would expect to get branded as a “cheater” in our social circle.
And I don’t think the semantics (which you’re engaging in) are going to change the perception of our community as a whole.
Feel free to test my hypothetical situation in real life. Let me know if the semantics make a difference.
Selena said: (#174)
“Telling your boyfriend you are breaking exclusivity means he’s no longer your boyfriend.”
That’s called breaking up. Which is exactly what Evan and I recommend (as the ethical alternative to circular dating).
But I would rephrase that: “Telling your boyfriend that he is no longer your boyfriend means you are breaking exclusivity.”
There’s less room for confusion.
Helen asked: (#180)
“Can’t we simply acknowledge that in different cultures even within the same country and different times, people view(ed) dating and marriage so differently that they are guided by different notions of appropriate behavior?”
This is dating advice, not a theoretical discourse on cultural values. If you know of a (current) culture where the men would find this acceptable, tell us which one it is. I’ll try to remember to point it out as an exception.
In mainstream American culture, men propose to their exclusive girlfriends. If the girlfriend decides to break exclusivity in order to apply pressure, most men will dump her. (Definitely exceptions for men with little/no self-esteem.)
Marie said: (#176)
“My point however, is that its a deal breaker because he knew his woman’s’ desires and time line before hand, and expressed he was on the same page.”
I have gone through the “exclusivity talk” numerous times. I have never been told the woman’s time line. I’ve never been asked to agree to her time line. Some women have expressed a desire to get married (in principle), but none have stated an expectation that they would be marrying me. None have stated that they expected me to eventually propose.
In your last serious relationship, did you tell your boyfriend (before agreeing to exclusivity) about your desire to be married and discuss your time line in explicit detail? Did you get him to explicitly agree to propose to you according to your time line?
If that was actually the case, you had a different deal than most women.
Marie asked: (#170)
“How many MEN is a woman supposed to break up with before she gets what she wants??? How many rounds through different men and heartbreaks is she supposed to endure till she finally meets the man of her dreams???”
Dating is hard for everybody (women and men). It’s painful for everybody. And if anybody tries to use that to excuse unethical behavior (like openly cheating inside of an exclusive relationship), I will recommend that their partner dump them.
Marie said: (#170)
“A good guy, like you claim to be, should and would sit up and realize that since he loves his babe, he’d rather NOT let her go …”
If I love a woman, but I’m uncertain whether she’s the right one, and she breaks up with me, then I might decide that I’d rather move forward (despite uncertainty) instead of losing her.
If the woman begins dating other men, I will realize that my uncertainty was justified. I may love her, but I’d rather go through the heartbreak now, instead of facing years of a lousy marriage with a woman who lacks integrity.
If you break up with a good man, he might fight to keep you. If you begin dating other men, you demonstrate that you’re not a good girlfriend, and he realizes there’s nothing worth fighting for.
Marie said: (#170)
“rather than becoming a frightful rabbit (excuse my description) and dumping her for some dude who will be just ELATED at having her all to himself!!!!”
Have you ever dated a divorcee?
And by “divorcee”, I don’t mean a man who is actually divorced. I mean a man who is separated.
And by “separated”, I don’t mean a man who has actually gotten a separation and moved out. I mean a man who has informed his wife that he wanted a separation.
I bet you were just ELATED at the thought of having him all to yourself!!!!
Being the second boyfriend is terrific if I just want a fling. I get some of the fun and none of the responsibility. And that’s exactly the relationship your second boyfriend wants.
Marie said: (#170)
“After all, so many Great women (that he may actually really like) do NOT exist, and if he has one…”
If your boyfriend begins openly cheating on you, do you continue believing that he’s a great boyfriend? Or do you realize that he was lousy boyfriend all along?
I’ve broken up with some amazing women because they made lousy girlfriends. They didn’t even cheat on me (which may explain why we’re still friends). It’s the same advice Evan gives women: If the great man you’re dating is a lousy boyfriend, then you need to get rid of that lousy boyfriend.
Selena said: (#168)
“We may see a return not only to dating more than one person at a time, but also putting off exclusivity until the man makes his intentions (of wanting a family) crystal clear.”
I must be a trendsetter.
Twenty years ago I was not interested in getting married. I was not interested in starting a family.
I was in explicitly in non-exclusive, non-monogamous relationships with a series of women. The men who don’t want to get married are completely on board with this plan.
susan said: (#175)
“i find it hard to beleive it is possible to give the right attention and energy to more than one person at a time. I tried it, it was a disaster for me.”
I can give enough time and attention to a couple women … but only if we’re keeping it casual. I can’t develop a serious relationship under those conditions.
That’s why men propose to their exclusive girlfriends.
Kathleen’s example (#183) is exactly what Evan and I would recommend. My sister did the exact same thing to her boyfriend (and even moved out). They’ve been married over 25 years.
Kathleen didn’t date anyone else. My sister didn’t date anyone else. Breaking up works. Dating other men (without breaking up) is counterproductive.
Selena says
Thank you Helen for your reply #184. Agree, this thread is obviously not the venue to discuss cultural differences and values.
It is apparently the thread to continue beating your own dead horse, oops! I mean drum. @Karl #185
Marie says
Exactly my point Karl!; Now you are getting through to my point of view!
YES!! A so called “Great” boyfriend, who isn’t cheating, but making his girlfriend miserable by waiting, is in actual and real fact a Lousy one! Everyone, take off the rose colored glasses!!!
While remaining non-exclusive is great, Ive stated before;
” I support Exclusivity with a man (I like), who is serious about marriage (or the same type of commitment I desire or have expressed to him) and has made such desires known as well (ie not someone who is vague about his intentions)….
….And mind, this “exclusivity” should be granted Months into the relationship, not after a few short weeks of just getting to know each other.”
Perhaps the bit I may add now is that I should probably break it off with him if he seems to be stringing me on. Yes! ill take that one….
BUT, ultimately, No one on earth has a right to own/retain/book down another human being according to their terms…(especially when the both of them have not made a mutual legal/spiritual agreement to belong to each other (a.k.a) marriage) and expect that the unhappy person should stay, because he/she is a self-titled “good” bf/gf.
Ruby says
I am not advocating or condoning anything one way or another, but here’s how i see circular dating working. A woman has been dating a man for a while, say a couple of years. They’ve been in an exclusive relationship, but lately, things have not been progressing much. They don’t want to break up, but the man is not willing to move forward. The woman has two choices: she can end the relationship, and see if the boyfriend steps up to the plate, or she can PULL BACK, see the boyfriend less frequently, and spend more time with friends, on her own, or even on dates (which as I see as “friendly” dating). She is not necessarily having sex with anyone else, but of course, while doing this, she MIGHT meet someone who is more committed to her needs. The theory is that the man will feel threatened that the woman is drifting away, and this may inspire him to make more of a commitment. Of course, it may not work any more than breaking up would work, but it’s another strategy. Notice that I am not advocating this, but simply noting how the concept might work.
There are stages to dating. Initially, you might be dating someone casually, along with others. Then you might move to dating one person, but with no specified commitment, and then to being “boyfriend and girlfriend” in a relationship with implied potential for a serious commitment. From there, you might move to living together, and so on. As i see it, “circular dating” takes a relationship that is not moving forward back to a more casual level of dating, rather than completely ending it.
Evan Marc Katz says
That’s exactly it, Ruby.
And if my serious girlfriend goes “casual” because I haven’t proposed, then I’m more likely to break up with her than commit to her.
Which is why it may sound good in theory, but in practice, it falls apart.
I will not feel closer to a girlfriend who tells me she’s dating. I will feel more distant. As would you if your boyfriend started seeing other women.
I don’t know how much clearer this could be.
Ruby says
EMK #189
“I will not feel closer to a girlfriend who tells me she’s dating. I will feel more distant. ”
I don’t think you’d feel closer to a woman who broke up with you. I haven’t gone back to re-read this entire thread to see if this has actually worked for anyone, though (besides Rori Raye, that is), but I don’t assume that it absolutely would not work, as you do. In fact, I first saw this strategy advocated in an article I read about commitment back in the early 90’s, so it’s really not that novel.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not a matter of whether it’s novel or whether it made sense in the 40s when men married women after three months so they could get laid.
It’s about whether this is an effective strategy. I feel quite strongly that it is NOT – that dating another man to get your boyfriend to propose to you is completely backward and antithetical to the principles of healthy relationships. Anyone who favors “Circular Dating” want to weigh in on how you’d feel if your boyfriend started dating other women because you weren’t positive you wanted to marry him? I can’t see any way of this HELPING a relationship.
You think it’s been too long and you should have a ring? Break up with him. It’s stronger. It sends a message. It has teeth. It means you are really leaving him because you’re not satisfied. He can try to win you over, but you’ve already exited the building.
Dating someone else is passive-aggressive bullshit which doesn’t account for the fact that you are openly CHEATING on your man. And we tend to frown upon that, as you might imagine.
Kathleen says
Ruby Read my example ….
If you leave a guy who knows you love him he will feel the loss and wonder if he’s made a huge mistake..
If you date other guys when he has been good to you and loyal he feels betrayed and with that comes anger
Marie says
#191
Honestly Evan! I don’t see why it should be called cheating!
The man should be happy that the lady even gave him months of her life to begin with!
I think you are too wrapped up with your self righteous perspective of who a “good” man is!
“””He is a good man, you should give him time, he means no harm…..BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!
She too is a GOOD woman!!! (for him to make her his gf in the first place) and For him to frustrate her to whatever level she has taken, is his fault!!!
If he dumps her, WELL, he was an insensitive brat to begin with!!! and I’m even happy for her!, she doesn’t need such a rigid self absorbed person in the first place.
To hell with what you think a woman should wait for his ring and blah blah, That is NO reason to tie a female to yourself and expect her to keep proving to you beyond her wits that she is a “great” woman( wagging her tail), till at the end she proves she deserves your prize.
Unfortunately for you, you fail to realize that women are the missing piece in any guys puzzle. Its NOT for a man to be pleased, convinced and begged, but for the man to appreciate, to woo, to please, to adore a woman!!!
If he had a GREAT lady to begin with, and he was insensitive enough to drive her to the chasms of circular dating or breaking up or whatever……SHAME ON HIM!!!
You know what??…He might as well break it off (as you say) and do exactly the same thing with another woman! After all, he needs and has all the time…he could go another 3 year round, because he neeeeds to make up his mind….And when that woman cant wait, GUESS WHAT!!!….He can break it off again!!… OOHLAALAAA!! Wonderful!!! Good for him! BRAVO!!!
Whoever came up with the idea of exclusive dating, must have been a man!…and guess what it SUCKS! Women are becoming too smart for it.
Of course the rules that come with it, what you term cheating, its all part of the bullsh*t attached!
Women are sensitive (and most wouldn’t want to do what is considered wrong) and by terming what we call harmless, social dates, as CHEATING, men have toyed with our consciences and kept us in line. To bad we see through it all now.
My point in fact….. Just because you adamantly call it CHEATING, doesn’t mean it is!!!
WHO MADE THAT RULE???????? Tell me!!!
The man too is FREE…….FREE like a bird, to also meet other ladies!!!
Perhaps when they have both had that time out, they might both come to their senses, and get back together….OR they find what they are looking for in someone else.
(That may be: the woman finds someone who is ready to give her the commitment she wants, and the man finds someone who is willing to wait three years with him)
I hope that answers your question.
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, Marie. It totally answers my question. You’re completely out of touch with reality. A man is a brat for not proposing to every woman he’s in a relationship with. A woman can get married without being a faithful and exclusive girlfriend. We’re all clear.
Paragon says
Singular investment in a LTR is dependent on confidence in exclusivity, and circular dating principles can only work to undermine that confidence.
If a woman feels compelled to adopt these principles, either from a mercenary notion of maximizing/insuring
her prospects, or because of the short-term benefits posed by indulging multiple suitors(betraying a penchant for strategic pluralism – making her a bad bet for any singular male investment), then she will be failing to justify this confidence during the formative stages of a LTR.
Successful anecdotes will represent the exceptions, not the rule.
Selena says
@#191
This is tiresome.
Breaking exclusivity is dropping a relationship down a level. Does it work for couples other than RR and her husband? I don’t know. It sounds painful to me.
What it ISN’T is cheating. You can’t cheat on someone you are not exclusive with.
Helen says
Selena, you’re right. You can’t cheat on someone with whom you’re not exclusive, because if you’re not exclusive with someone, s/he doesn’t “own” you.
Karl had asked earlier where this way of thinking applies. Even John Gray of Mars & Venus fame espouses it. In one of his books (“Mars and Venus on a Date”), he talks about five stages of relationship, the last being marriage. In the previous four stages, if you’ve moved too far ahead and the other person hasn’t (whether that person is male or female), he recommends to move back a stage or two, even moving back to the stage before exclusivity (the third stage). That does entail saying to the other person (either male or female) that there is still an interest, but they will date others. If communicated openly and without anger or resentment, that will be the catalyst for the other party (male or female) to consider how important the relationship is to him/her, and s/he can make a choice to break off or move deeper in the relationship with the partner.
This theme crops up again and again. It’s not just Rori Raye’s “circular dating,” although she does put a name on it. Elliot and Gray have both recommended it. And from what we can gather of the comments here, some approve of it, and others don’t. So it has always been.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#194)
“You can’t cheat on someone you are not exclusive with.”
Helen said: (#195)
“You can’t cheat on someone with whom you’re not exclusive, because if you’re not exclusive with someone, s/he doesn’t ‘own’ you.”
Can you show me (in Rori’s work or any of her supporter’s statements) where they indicate that this new “non-exclusivity” (when a woman trying to encourage your “exclusive” boyfriend to propose) applies to the man also?
Look at what EB (#27) said.
“It seems like a double standard to me to date other men while he ‘makes up his mind’. Sure, just starting out is OK, but once things progress, how can I expect him to trust me if I am out doing who knows what with other men? And then, to expect him to NOT date others is selfish and unfair!”
“If after a reasonable amount of time ( this can vary by person) your needs have not been met, then cut him loose — don’t openly cheat and expect that to improve the relationship!”
She’s reading the same thing into Rori’s ideas, and she’s a fan of Rori’s (and presumably better versed in her work than I am).
Or SMC: (#117)
“During that time, I was disturbed that Rori’s blog said that it was okay for me to CD but that he couldn’t. Such a double standard!!”
Or CD fan GingerSky: (#124)
“men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you…”
Look at Twilight Princes (#54) or Jadafisk (#92) who also seem to read this inequality into Rori’s explanations of CDing.
If there is no exclusivity, then I completely agree that there is no cheating. But if both people agreed to mutual exclusivity, and then one person decides that exclusivity only applies to the other person….
… what term would you use to describe that situation?
To use a metaphor, this particular aspect of CDing involves:
1. Changing the rules in the middle of the game.
2. Only one person agreeing to the rules change.
3. Different rules for the two players.
4. Rules which clearly favor one person over the other.
If you did that in the middle of a sporting match, you’d be accused of cheating.
Helen said: (#87)
“can’t we just apply the Golden Rule here?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I wouldn’t want my man to be dating others if we were in a serious relationship, so I wouldn’t do the same to him.”
Have you changed your mind about this?
Helen says
No, Karl, I haven’t changed my mind about anything. The two people in a relationship need to be on the same page about this. For my husband and me, it happened naturally and we did not need to discuss this. For others, discussions may be necessary.
John Gray’s advice about moving forward and backward in relationship stages applies to both sexes, not just women. If Rori is being hypocritical and saying only women should do x, y, z, but men are not allowed to, then I would not support it.
Marie says
While I don’t mean to bash you, Evan…
You may want to bring me back to reality.
I’m a Nigerian, and I live in Nigeria. Women here are totally used to the type of dating you are recommending and talk about.
They are practically raised to worship men, wait on them, the headline of their future goals is to get married.
The men have caught on!.. They string ladies along for years, some even bear children for them out of wedlock.
And the men still keep on stringing them on. The women don’t complain, oh no…They’re used to it, expect it sometimes…It is dating afterall..The men are GOOD men…”They” will take care of them eventually.
Young ladies waste their youthful days pining over ONE bf… WHY?! Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his “gf” of several years (mind he had been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!
I’ve come to discover:- A man would only get serious when he WANTS to, never before!
Any Woman who gets in his path before he is ready, is just that! JUST in his path!
And when the man eventually decides he is ready, it doesn’t take him time atall…he’s literally scouting through women, looking for whom to call his wife!
If he is Blessed to find a GREAT lady on time….He is very lucky! and he doesn’t hesitate to put a ring on her finger!
What Rori Raye and Others who may preach “circular dating” have done…is give women (all over the world) a way of spending their time positioning themselves in a position where they are available when a man who is truly ready, can get to them, and scoop them off…..instead of them (ladies) being blocked off because they are in an (exclusive) relationship.
While I believe your intentions are good…and I believe you are one of those straightening out dating problems in the world…you might also need to understand where women (all over the world) are coming from and the different perspectives that may be involved.
Great debate, by the way!
Evan Marc Katz says
I guess we’re gonna agree to disagree, Marie.
You said, “When the man eventually decides he is ready, it doesn’t take him time at all…he’s literally scouting through women, looking for whom to call his wife!”
Maybe that’s the way it works in Nigeria. But here in the U.S., people are together for between 2 and 2 1/2 years before getting married, on average. So if you’re losing your cool after 1 year, and you start dating other man, you’re not going to reach the point where he’s comfortable marrying you. You’re working completely on your timeline and giving no respect to his. Foolish men who propose in three months are NOT what you’re looking for. You should want a man who takes his responsibility as a husband very seriously and knows that he’s making a smart, lifetime decision. Those decisions take years to make, not months. And if you start circular dating while he’s still trying to decide, you’re going to push away the best men.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#200)
“Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his ‘gf’ of several years (mind he had been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!”
Is this an example of a “good” man?
Regardless, what is the benefit of circular dating this man? I would recommend dumping him (or never dating him in the first place). How is dating this kind of man (plus some other men) preferable to not dating him at all?
Selena says
@ Karl #197
I’ve read some of RR’s articles in the past and from what I remember the jist is a man doesn’t need to CD because he is the one who is satisfied with the relationship “as is”. The point of breaking exclusivity is to give him all the time he needs to decide if he wants to claim the woman. He either “steps up” or he doesn’t. Not wanting to date her if she is cd’ing other men would be an example of doesn’t. The choice is his. The woman doesn’t manipulate him at all, her job is stay in the feminine, cd, and let him come to her if he chooses.
Presumably her programs give much more detail, but you would have to purchase them if you are interested.
It occurred to me earlier there are other examples of breaking exclusivity that are fairly common: Taking a break from a relationship is one; trial separation is another. In these scenario’s the couple may date others as well as each other. And they don’t consider it cheating.
Paragon says
@ Marie
“She too is a GOOD woman!!! (for him to make her his gf in the first place) and For him to frustrate her to whatever level
she has taken, is his fault!!!
If he dumps her, WELL, he was an insensitive brat to begin with!!! and I’m even happy for her!, she doesn’t need such a rigid self absorbed person in the first place.
To hell with what you think a woman should wait for his ring and blah blah, That is NO reason to tie a female to yourself and expect her to keep proving to you beyond her wits that she is a “great” woman( wagging her tail), till at the end she proves she deserves your prize.
Unfortunately for you, you fail to realize that women are the missing piece in any guys puzzle. Its NOT for a man to be
pleased, convinced and begged, but for the man to appreciate, to woo, to please, to adore a woman!!!
If he had a GREAT lady to begin with, and he was insensitive enough to drive her to the chasms of circular dating or breaking up or whatever……SHAME ON HIM!!!”
You sound frustrated, and are making alot of assumptions here.
If someone has tacit expectations for a relationship, it is something they should discuss openly with their partner, and then make decisions based on whether they feel these expectations are likely to be met.
After that, BOTH parties are free to make whatever decision they feel is most agreeable to THEM.
Again, the *only* strategic advantage for circular dating(compared with ‘breaking-up’), is in maximizing courtship benefits from multiple suitors(it will *not* incentivize a man to commit, even as much as breaking up with him).
In other words, it is a rationalization for a kind of open relationship that attempts to place the onus on the male party.
Some men WILL be OK with that, but some won’t.
It sounds like you are deeply resentful of the fact that SOME men are critical of circular dating principles, and would not
tolerate a non-exclusive partner.
But, I suspect that no amount of shaming language is going to convince men to go against their better judgement(I being one of them).
“The men have caught on!.. They string ladies along for years, some even bear children for them out of wedlock.
And the men still keep on stringing them on. The women don’t complain, oh no…They’re used to it, expect it sometimes…It is dating afterall..The men are GOOD men…”They” will take care of them eventually.
Young ladies waste their youthful days pining over ONE bf… WHY?!”
Because, if Nigeria is like NA, women tend to be disproportionately invested in a very atypical sample of ‘choice’ males.
The kinds of males who tend to be non-committal, for the wealth of sexual options they enjoy.
If this is indeed the problem, it bears a simple(if unsympathetic) solution – stop fixating on non-committal males.
I can only speak for NA, but here, there is NO shortage of males who are low-risk for promiscuity, following from a sparse(occasionally non-existant) relationship history.
The dilemma is, that these kinds of men tend to be invisible to women, and their low-risk indications perhaps a
consequence of their low mate value.
Marie says
Paragon #204
I am not frustrated, as even though I live in Nigeria, I do not fall under That category of women. I have not encountered such experiences on a personal level BUT I merely speak on their behalf because it is what I see or hear happening all the time.
It is very interesting to see that Evan’s dating advise caters to only American women, and that he seems very disinterested in widening his perspectives.
Perhaps I should rephrase a bit of my earlier post:
“Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his “gf” of several years (mind he **MAY** have been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!”
Mind I am Not saying all Nigerian males cheat or are promiscuous, oh no! I’m just saying, most women are brought up ALREADY with the sort of dating idea Evan has professed! Its inbred.
What i’m Illustrating, is that it really DOESN’T always work!
It is NOT as concrete as Evan makes it out to be…
Perhaps the same goes for Rori’s concept too!
HOWEVER, it is for individuals to try/choose whichever works for them. Besides it is quite disapproving for one to openly bash the other (even going as far as writing a whole blog(including the other’s name) and calling wrong, the other’s theory)
That’s why there is Christianity and there is Islam, and several other religions too…..
That’s why you go to a store and find many products labelled that they do the same thing!…..You choose what works for you!
Paragon says
@ Selena
“@ Karl #197
I’ve read some of RR’s articles in the past and from what I remember the jist is a man doesn’t need to CD because he is the one who is satisfied with the relationship “as is”. The point of breaking exclusivity is to give him all the time he needs to decide if he wants to claim the woman. He either “steps up” or he doesn’t. Not wanting to date her if she is cd’ing other men would be an example of doesn’t. The choice is his. The woman doesn’t manipulate him at all, her job is stay in the feminine, cd, and let him come to her if he chooses.”
As I understand it(and please correct me if I am mistaken), circular dating is a policy of non-exclusity(and I am assuming,
just on the female side?), taken until the point of an accepted engagement(or it is marriage)?
The problem with this strategy, is that circular dating communicates *less* about wanting commitment
than about *wanting to date other men* – the two are *not* equivalents.
Any way you choose to rationalize it, dating other men communicates one thing above all others – a desire to date other men.
And few men will be foolish enough to commit to a woman who expresses such a desire, regardless of how she attempts to justify it.
In fact, circular dating all but *ensures* that the only men who will abide such an arrangement, are non-committal men.
If that *isn’t* irony, then perhaps circular dating is truly about reaping courtship benefits from multiple suitors, under a sympathetic pretext of securing ‘commitment’.
Selena says
@ #206
Perhaps those interested in Rori Raye’s ideas should go to the source. She has numerous articles archived on her website and an email address for those who may want further clarification.
Monique says
Evan, I am a big fan of Rori Raye, and I think the general message of CDing has been misconstrued. It’s not about cheating, or even ultimatums. It’s more about boundaries and not creating complacency in a relationship (especially before the commitment is official). Now this is just my take on it, but I think the concept of CDing is to be honest with the man. If getting married and started a family is important (and to most women it is) then that’s something the man in question should know. Of course I’m NOT saying a woman should continue to actively “date” when she has met a great guy that feels the same way she does about everything important. However, I am saying that it seems to be a fact that if a man becomes complacent then he tends to also become less concerned about moving forward. But here’s the bottom line, if he’s such a great guy and he is on the same page romantically then he’ll be as eager to move forward as the woman, and the topic of CDing won’t even come up. A woman SHOULD always keep her options open until she is someone’s wife…Why not??? Men certainly keep their’s open.
Paragon says
@ Monique
“A woman SHOULD always keep her options open until she is someone’s wife…Why not??? Men certainly keep their’s open.”
Which men?
Non-committal men?
There is no shortage of men who are predisposed to monogamy, and commitment(in fact, we should expect that there are MORE such men than women).
If women are tending to non-committal men, then I submit that there may be a problem with their selection process(circular dating *would* represent just such a problem – see below).
Any sensible man is going to want to go exclusive for a trial period – circular dating would seem to preclude such a notion.
Again, the problem with Circular Dating, is that few men are going to want to singularly invest in a woman who’s policy it is to date other men until marriage, because such mercenary opportunism(ie. expressed as a policy to prioritize her ‘options’) is reasonably perceived as a risk-factor for long-term stability(ie. what is
to say she will *stop* prioritizing her ‘options’ open once she marries?).
Ironically, the men who will be most amenable to circular dating are *non-committal* men(doh!).
Which is why circular dating is such an asinine strategy for securing commitment from a man(ie. it is actually *selecting*
for non-committal men).
Selena says
@Paragon #209
Whilst I don’t think keeping one’s options open until receiving a proposal is “asinine”, I do think it may be unrealistic outside of certain cultures in the US at present time.
Since some men and women are more goal oriented towards marriage than others, I wonder if placing more emphasis on what the “boyfriend/girlfriend” stage means may be more effective. That is, one only agrees to being at that stage when they feel confident both are on the same path. If people feel they are on the same path, perhaps there would be less dissonance when it comes to a timeline.
If they are on the same path, wouldn’t they be more likely to be on the same page after a year together?
Thoughts?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena – The only people who seem to have trouble understanding what boyfriend/girlfriend mean are the Rori folks. It means that they’re dating exclusively and are not looking to date anyone else. As to whether this relationship becomes permanent, that is dependent on four things:
1) Whether she ever wants to get married.
2) Whether he ever wants to get married.
3) Whether she’s decided that he’s the man she wants to marry.
4) Whether he’s decided that she’s the man she wants to marry.
You should very well know whether you’re both marriage oriented within the first few months of dating. The next two to three years of dating are for both of you to decide whether you want to marry each other. And this victim’s mentality, as if it’s entirely up to men to decide if you get married, is completely disempowering. You should think long and hard about whether you can build a life with a man over 40 years – if he is kind, consistent and has character – how you spend money, deal with disagreements, get along with family, etc. This is not always stuff you learn in year 1.
Put another way, both parties may want to ultimately be married, but they should not know if it’s to each other for a pretty long time. How many couples date for one year or two years before breaking up? LOTS of them. That’s not because men lack integrity. That’s because PEOPLE gather more information over time, or decide that love isn’t enough, or because they stop accepting problems in their relationship, or because something new is revealed, or because they decide they’re not ready, or because they stop being afraid of being alone, or because they don’t let inertia carry them to the altar or because they decide that freedom to find the right person is greater than the sunk costs of a dissatisfying relationship…
It takes two to tango. Both marriage-oriented parties have every right at any time to decide not to proceed. And if either party decides, that’s the RIGHT decision – the responsible decision, because it’s the HARD decision.
Selena says
Evan,
I very much agree with what you wrote in #211.
However, I think there are marriage-as-goal people, and go-with-the-flow people. Go-with-the-flow people may go to the bf/gf stage in 1-3 mos. with the understanding the r’ship could, possibly result in marriage, but without the expectation that it will.
Marriage-as-goal folks may enter the bf/gf stage with the expectation that it will lead to marriage. And if they agree to it without making the other person aware of that expectation…they may find themselves disappointed to find their bf/gf isn’t on the same track after x amount of months. And it isn’t because the man, or woman lacks integrity.
There seems to be no agreement as to the definition of exclusivity. For some it merely means dating one person at a time. For others it implies a level of commitment – for some people a serious commitment. Which is why I think marriage-as-goal people are better off getting their cards on the table early in the getting to know each other stage, and not moving to the bf/gf stage until they know the other person is similarly goal oriented.
As Ruby and Helen have pointed out, the concepts being associated with RR aren’t original to her. They are based on traditional courtship patterns in other cultures and eras, and the ideas of other, earlier writers. I’ve read some of RR’s work, I’m interested in the original ideas, not her ‘spin’ on them.
Evan Marc Katz says
I disagree, Selena. I’ve given you the definition of exclusivity – dating one person at a time. Whether two people are meant to last a lifetime is the whole purpose for dating. I completely agree – and have already stated – that you should know if a man would like to be married eventually. He will usually reveal that in the first few months.
But this has nothing to do with the original post, where a devoted boyfriend of 18 months can suddenly discover that his exclusive girlfriend is dating other men because he hasn’t proposed yet.
Just because a guy wants to get married doesn’t mean he wants to marry YOU. That’s his right. Just as it’s YOUR right to dismiss a man after 18 months because you’re not getting YOUR needs met.
But if you dismiss a man because your timetable is considerably faster than his, you’re going to have a lot of trouble when reality hits. Most men wait 2 years to propose. You’re better off playing it cool to get that ring than “circular dating” if you want to be married. That’s all this post was ever about.
Paragon says
The issue of conflicting timetables is a valid concern, but circular dating isn’t the answer.
Again, as soon as she resolves to ‘nudge’ things along with circular dating, she is planting a seed of doubt as to her true intentions, and her fidelity as a long term partner.
Hence the guys who are most tolerant of these kinds of doubts, will be those who have no intention of a long term investment(ie. non-committal men).
Selena says
@#214
If you read RR’s work (apparently you have not) the point of circular dating after having been in an exclusive relationship is not to ‘nudge’ things along. Men do what they want to do. If he still isn’t sure he wants to marry after having been exclusive for x period of time that’s his right. A woman wants a man who wants to marry her, not one who doesn’t. It’s her right not to stay exclusive with one who doesn’t. If she wishes, she can leave the door open for him should he decide to walk through at a future date.
He knows her intentions, it’s his which are in doubt.
Clare says
I realise I am very late to this discussion, and I only have a superficial knowledge of Rori Raye’s approach, but for my part, I would think that *closeness* is what facilitates marriage.
When I am close enough to someone that I would want to get married to them, the idea of them disinvesting in me to date others, or to make themselves the centre of their universe, would utterly destroy me, and the idea of disinvesting in them so that I could date others would make me feel physically ill.
If I am so close to someone that I can imagine him as my husband, there is no way on this earth that I could see other people.
It seems to me that this is a way to avoid getting hurt, to disinvest and pretend he doesn’t mean all that much to you, so that you can kid yourself into thinking you have “all the power”. The way I see it, you can’t have the one without the other, the deep love without the risk of getting hurt.
As much as my heart goes out to those women who have invested time and again in a man, only to be disappointed when he doesn’t commit, as much as it can make you feel dangerously insecure to think that you are “the more loving one”, openness and vulnerability are what people respond to.
For my part, even though I am a marriage-orientated woman, I can’t understand the wisdom of rushing to the altar. Getting there should be an organic process, in which trust and selflessness play a major part. I cannot see how that is served by hardening yourself and essentially “testing” your relationship by pursuing other people. If you test something enough times, it will break.
Helen says
Sometimes, how men think/speak and how they act are two very different things.
Without knowing it was “circular dating” over 15 years ago, I did break exclusivity with the man I was seeing then. No attempt to play games; just a genuine uncertainty about how the relationship was going. He redoubled his efforts to win me back, and not because he was non-committal or a loser. Come to think of it, this has happened more than once, and certainly not just to me.
Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.” But when the actual scenario presents itself? – Most men compete. I’m not saying that this is a good thing. I’m saying that this is what happens.
Emily says
yes.. it’s true. Men SAY they don’t like game playing, the Rules, playing hard to get, or when women make them compete for their attention with other men… how they act is a different story- quite the contrary! (in my experience as well…)
Selena says
Re: #217
I think when someone isn’t ready to move a relationship forward there is a reason beyond “I’m not ready”. There is a because at the end of that sentence. “I’m not ready because…”. I can see how if a man, deep down, knows he doesn’t want to be with that woman – forever – he wouldn’t be willing to compete for her. Why should he?
I can see breaking exclusivity as a way of weeding out non-committal men who may be unwilling to admit they are non-committal.
Karl R says
Helen said: (#217)
“Men are motivated by competition. They can say, ‘If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.’ But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.”
When one long-term girlfriend broke exclusivity, I began dating other women. When another woman started playing hard-to-get (pre-exclusivity), I decided to cut her loose in favor of women who didn’t play games.
My fiancée fell in love with me about a month before I fell in love with her … because she initially told me that she wasn’t interested in exclusivity (with me), and I wasn’t about to get emotionally entangled with a woman who was interested in pursuing someone else. Spending five nights per week at her house … no problem. Getting entangled with someone who wasn’t prepared to reciprocate … not going to happen.
This topic reminds me of a Jeff Foxworthy quote:
“Guys, if a woman says to you ‘I think we should start seeing other people,’ trust me, she has already cut a pony from the herd, and if she ain’t ridin’ him yet, she has pulled the saddle out of the barn.”
Why do we laugh? Because it’s generally true.
Helen,
If your husband/fiancé/boyfriend implied that he wanted to sleep with other women, would you feel motivated to compete for him?
Selena said: (#218)
“I can see breaking exclusivity as a way of weeding out non-committal men who may be unwilling to admit they are non-committal.”
I’d say that breaking up is a better way. Let the man know that you’re breaking up because he seems unwilling/unable to move forward and commit. If he doesn’t want to lose you, he’ll step up. If he doesn’t want to commit, you’re not still in a relationship with him.
Rochelle says
The parts of CD-ing that make me uneasy are the ones being debated here– going on actual dates with other guys all the way up to a proposal and dating while in a relationship with a guy who isn’t “ready” after a decent amount of time. Sounds like it would make more sense to leave, then date other men..and if he wants to find his way back he will and the girl would have all the power to decide. And in most cases, neither the man or woman knows for sure they’re getting married iwthin only 6 months of dating… It happens but it’s not the norm. I think while in an exclusive relationship that you agreed to, there’s no harm in dating yourself, and “flirting with the world” because it’s not good to just be focused on your man. But going on actual dates doesn’t sound good to me… Even if no sex is involved and just some other level of physical intimacy. As for dating more than one man while not in an exclusive relationship, I discovered it really helps me not focus on any one man and investing in a relationship that doesn’t exist yet, and help me keep my heart open. I don’t have to tell him I’m dating other guys and he might be dating other women, so no need to shut down my options.
And going with the whole girlfriend/boyfriend way becoming exclusive, I think it’s best to do after a few months rather than a few weeks to 2 months (which I see other girls my age doing with men who ask them in a shorter amount of time, only to realize it’s going nowhere), and talk about the fact you want marriage for yourself (not necessarily with him) to reduce the risk of being exclusive with a guy who has no intention to marry or really see if wants to. Men do want to hear not just assume what we want and if we wait to mention marriage after becoming exclusive, he might be like “hmm I wasn’t really thinking about marriage when I asked her to be my gf, this is probably going to be temporary”… I think when a man asks me to be exclusive, this will be my plan. I feel like there’s a lot to learn from both Rori and Evan’s advice even though they don’t see everything the same way.
Helen says
Karl R: I wouldn’t know, because it’s a hypothetical. I can theorize about how I’d respond, but when it comes down to it, the way people think they’ll respond and the way they actually respond are very different. Daniel Gilbert has researched this as well. I was discussing actual happenstances, not hypotheticals.
In truth, I don’t think you and Selena (and I) are talking too far apart. What you may call breaking up, she may call breaking exclusivity. We can summarize it by saying, “taking a step backwards in the relationship.” That’s how John Gray put it. No need to get too hung up in the terminology. In real life, stages of any relationship (not just romantic) are not so black and white, anyway.
Selena says
@ 219 Karl R.
I’d say that breaking up is a better way. Let the man know that you’re breaking up because he seems unwilling/unable to move forward and commit. If he doesn’t want to lose you, he’ll step up. If he doesn’t want to commit, you’re not still in a relationship with him.
Breaking up is an option. Breaking exclusivity and being willing to still date each other is another option. It’s his option. If he doesn’t want it, or take it…isn’t the result the same?
I would think there would be some soul searching, and in- depth discussion before a couple would get to the point of considering breaking up, or breaking exclusivity, don’t you? Do you really believe there aren’t people who would be willing to take a step back, rather than let go right then and there completely?
Do trial separations, taking a break from a relationship always result in the end of a relationship? Same deal.
Evan Marc Katz says
Wrote this on Rori’s blog yesterday. Conversation has been light but respectful.
For what it’s worth, EMK (now speaking in the third person) thinks you should be exclusive with a guy after no longer than a couple of months. He has all the evidence he needs at that time to forgo other women. I wouldn’t sleep with him until he was your boyfriend either. If, after a few months, he’s not stepping up, dump him. Move on.
This is where it gets interesting.
Because if you do have a boyfriend (meaning: he’s sleeping with you exclusively, calling you every night, leaving his weekends open for you, talking about a future, integrating you with his friends/family, calls you his girlfriend), it will now take, realistically, about two years for him to figure out if he wants to marry you. This is not only very realistic but very wise. Because the longer you wait to get married, the less likely you are to make a colossal mistake. Chemistry usually wears off between 18 months and 3 years, which is another reason to delay proposal. That’s when the smoke clears and you realize what it will be like to be with a flawed man for the rest of your life.
And while I appreciate your concern, especially if you’re in your late 30”²s, early 40”²s, two things are particularly ineffective in making a man feel like he wants to marry you:
1) Pressuring him before he’s rightfully ready.
2) Dating other men.
If he’s a good, relationship oriented man who wants to be married, but hasn’t figured out if he wants to marry you, your best bet is to give him time. If you start pressuring him or actually dating other people because you don’t have your answer, I respectfully submit that this will backfire on you.
I know there are many women — especially Rori — who disagree with my assertion. That’s your prerogative. My job is to explain what men think. What you do with that information is up to you. But the only reason that I ever write about this stuff is that I feel particularly strongly that this one particular aspect of CDing will not have its intended effect. In fact, it will have the opposite effect — it will make a man who was highly considering proposing to you second-guess your entire relationship.
The thing to do when you have realistically had enough (which is closer to 2-3 years), is to simply break up with him. You’ll have a lot more leverage at that point, since he will have considerable sunk costs and have a hard time picturing life without you. Either he’ll step up at that point, or he’ll step out. But at least you will have respected his reasonable time table instead of pushing him way before he’s ready. The reason that we date you — the reason that we call you our girlfriends — is in order to figure out if we want to spend 40 years with you. It’s quite reasonable for him to take that responsibility seriously and not buy a $10K ring and risk half of his assets until he’s really, really sure.
And as anyone who’s been in a 2+ year relationship knows, things do change from 6 months to 3 years. You should be constantly evaluating whether HE’s a good husband material for a few years before you’re ready to say yes as well.
Look before you leap, Sirens. And respect the fact that if he’s a good man who wants a family, he’s really trying to do the right thing.
Oh, and for the one reader who mentioned me and my wife. I proposed to her in 16 months because she was 39 and I wanted kids. It was very risky and I wasn’t sure I did the right thing. All of my other friends who married 40 year old women waited 2-3 years before proposing. Those women are now happily married because they waited instead of CDing.
Good night and much love.
Respectfully,
Evan
Erika says
@223 EMK: Makes perfect sense to me, I don’t know how anyone could make a logical argument against any of it.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#222)
“I would think there would be some soul searching, and in- depth discussion before a couple would get to the point of considering breaking up, or breaking exclusivity, don’t you?”
Really?
I’ve had three serious relationships end in breakups. In each case, one person did the soul-searching, made a decision, and announced that decision to the other person. The “discussion” was a few sentences long.
Have your breakups been that different than mine?
Selena asked: (#222)
“Breaking up is an option. Breaking exclusivity and being willing to still date each other is another option. It’s his option. If he doesn’t want it, or take it…isn’t the result the same?”
Let me illustrate the difference. Let’s assume your long-term, live-in boyfriend hasn’t proposed, and you’re trying to motivate him.
Scenario 1: You tell him that you’re breaking up unless he decides that he wants to marry you.
Scenario 2: You tell him that you’re breaking exclusivity unless he decides that he wants to marry you
In either case, it’s his option. In both scenarios, he says he understands. He needs some time to think about it, but he’ll give you an answer in two weeks.
Scenario 1: Your boyfriend moves out of your apartment temporarily and stays with a relative.
Scenario 2: Both of you are still staying together in your apartment. On the third evening, your boyfriend stays out late on a date. Two nights later, he doesn’t get home until morning. He has three more dates (one of them overnight) before the two-week deadline.
After two weeks, he announces that he wants to marry you. Do you believe that your desire to go forward and marry him would be identical in those two scenarios? Is the result the same?
In Scenario 1, he didn’t spend his evenings/nights with you, but he didn’t spend them with other women either. In Scenario 2, he spent some of his evenings with you, and some with other women. That’s the difference between the two scenarios.
In both cases, you “took a step back” for two weeks, and he decided to marry you. Do you feel differently about Scenario 1 and Scenario 2? If so, can you explain to me why you feel differently?
Paragon says
@ Selena
“If you read RR’s work (apparently you have not) the point of circular dating after having been in an exclusive relationship
is not to ‘nudge’ things along.”
Then why do so many women in this very thread *disagree*(or are we reading different threads)?
“Men do what they want to do. If he still isn’t sure he wants to marry after having been exclusive for x period of time
that’s his right. A woman wants a man who wants to marry her, not one who doesn’t. It’s her right not to stay exclusive with one who doesn’t. If she wishes, she can leave the door open for him should he decide to walk through at a future date.”
What possible reason could she have for *not* breaking up with him, unless she *still* wants him in the picture(which is what circular dating *implies*)?
I am just pointing out(with justifications), why this is not a sound strategy forf cajoling committment(and yes, I was making that assumption).
@ Helen
“Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.” But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.”
Yes they do, but most *marriage-minded* men are not so reckless as to compete for a woman with a demonstrated penchant to break exclusivity(I have already provided my justifications as to why we should expect this).
Selena says
@Karl
If I were to break exclusivity with someone I would not continue co-habitating with them. There would be no Scenario 2.
@Paragon
She’s giving him the choice to be in the picture.
Clare says
I agree with you Paragon. The only reason to “leave the door open” for him is because you secretly hope that he will come walking through it. You secretly hope that your behaviour will cause him to want to invest, to want to commit, which to me says that you are care and are more emotionally invested than you are willing to admit. Hence my belief that this Circular Dating idea is actually simply a protective mechanism.
Maybe it’s just me, but I simply don’t believe love works this way. I think loving someone to the point that you want to be married to them means being all in. Maybe it’s just me but I cannot see on what planet you can actually be deeply in love with someone, and still be willing to disinvest and hurt him by going on dates with other people.
The honourable and authentic thing to do, if you really feel that this relationship is a dead end and you want to explore other options, is to break up with him.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#227)
“If I were to break exclusivity with someone I would not continue co-habitating with them.”
Nice attempt at dodging the question.
Fine. Revised Scenario 2:
You stay with a family member for those two weeks. You find out from a third party that he went on five dates (overnight twice). He also went on two dates with you. At the end of two weeks, he says he’s decided that he wants to marry you.
Do you feel the same about Scenario 1 and Revised Scenario 2?
Selena says
Karl,
I believe there are people who would – and do – go back a level in a relationship.
Like Helen, I also believe sometimes what people say they would do in a particular situation, may not be what they would actually do in that situation.
Your scenarios are not going to change my opinion.
Shall we move on?
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, we can move on, Selena. Very much like your boyfriend will after you start seeing other guys. Very much like a woman should do when her boyfriend sees other women.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#230)
“I believe there are people who would — and do — go back a level in a relationship.”
You earlier gave the example (#222) of trial separations. That’s an interesting choice for an example. If a white woman separates from her husband, there’s a 98% chance she will be divorced 6 years later. (There’s a 80% chance if she’s hispanic, and a 72% chance if she’s black. These are statistics from a CDC report.)
I am quite aware that some people go back a level in their relationships. I’m also aware that it usually spells the end of the relationship.
If someone is about to gamble their relationship, Evan and I will tell them that 98% happens more often than 2% (and 72% happens more often than 28%).
Selena said: (#230)
“Your scenarios are not going to change my opinion.”
As far as I can tell, you have never practiced this type of circular dating. As far as I can tell, you have no intent of ever practicing this form of circular dating. As far as I can tell, you would not tolerate having a man do this type of circular dating behavior to you.
It’s not your opinion I’m trying to change. Your opinion appears to be identical to mine (which explains why you keep dodging my questions).
I’m trying to sway the opinion of any women who might be foolish enough to listen to someone who is preaching the validity of a system that she’s opposed to practicing.
Paragon says
@ Helen
““Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.”
But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.””
I would like to add that men compete, out of necessity – that *successful* men are amenable to competition, should come as no surprise to anyone(on the other hand, how many habitual *losers* should we expect enjoy the *thrill* of competition?).
@ Selena
“Do trial separations, taking a break from a relationship always result in the end of a relationship? Same deal.”
Less so, perhaps – and only because of the increased male liability posed by divorce.
But, this is classic cherry picking – a strategy doesn’t need to fail EVERY time, for us to justifiably conclude that it is a losing strategy.
“She’s giving him the choice to be in the picture.”
Yes, that’s my point.
She wants him in the picture.
BUT, if she is using circular dating as a strategy to cajole committment, it is the opinion of myself and others,
that this strategy is likely to backfire in a big way(for reasons that have been specified already, ad nauseum).
Colette Kenney says
Evan, I’m on your “side” not that we’re taking sides.
I’ll be honest, I’ve skimmed both yours and Rori’s blogs, but I’ve pretty much got the jist and my intuition tells me that this is a fear-based tactic to protect yourself from getting hurt.
The reality is, there are NO GUARANTEES in love, and as you mention again and again, it becomes plainly OBVIOUS by a man’s actions if he’s really into you and true boyfriend material.
Now if you want to MAKE SURE he’s husband material, well, you’ve got to be confident and secure enough to have a mature conversation with him about it (and even then, there are still no guarantees).
Oh, and, a mature conversation doesn’t not include “if you don’t want to propose, I’m out of here, and buddy, it’s your loss.”
If you’re at 3-9months into a relationship and you’ve had a mature conversation about your desire to be married, he may have said it’s what he wants too, because he doesn’t yet know if he does, but he knows that he likes you enough to not want this relationship to end.
Can’t blame a guy for that. How many things do us women not know 100% what we want. How can we be so pompous to sit there an judge men for not being absolutely clear on one of the biggest decisions of his life: Going from lone wolf to part of a pack. It’s scary as hell for most men, even the ones who feel sure it’s what they want.
If you’re together forever, 3 months or 9 years, and then one day he decides he just doesn’t want to do it (get married), I say, Oh Well. It sucks, but oh well.
Everything is purposeful and perfect. Nothing is a sure thing. Even marriages end in divorce. And, more than anything: Everything happens FOR you, not TO you.
Sometimes you get what you need, not what you want.
CDing, in my opinion feels manipulative, controlling, and against the flow of life.
I love your advice Evan. I quote you all the time in my session with clients.
xo Colette
Heather says
Great blog. I read very critically. I’ve been reading off and on Rori’s posts on her mailing lists. Here advice is good, but in some cases seems a bit over the top. I totally disagree with telling your guy you are going to date other men – assuming he’s a good guy. Just as you said, if he’s a bad guy, he needs to get dumped. End of story. Any man that I’d want would tell me to go pound salt if told him I was going to go date other dudes.
Gina says
So yeah I have been listening to the Rori Raye stuff and some of it doesn’t seem to make sense. Basically she tells women do not call a man ever. do not text him. do not ask men out etc. Seems to be quite a generation gap going on here. So I’ve been trying to follow her deal and I can tell you that it has not garnered me any more interest from men. I’ve been trying my best to do the steps she proposes and I have had much less dating activity than before.I just don’t get how your supposed to get all these dates if you are not even communicating with the men. most women are excited to get asked out by one guy its not like they are just falling out of the sky here. I was hoping to find some feedback from women who took her advice and were successful with it. The Cdating does seem unorthadox but I think it can be a tool if you are dating a non committal man.( or maybe he’s the tool ha ha ) One of the points that was missed is that in cir dating you also date yourself. Meaning you don’t even have to date other men just find what you enjoy and do it. This way the woman Isn’t totally focusing on the man which is good. She just wants women to stop wasting their time with guys who don’t care about you as a woman. A non-commital guy wont care who you are seeing and it gives the woman some emotional distance so she can see he doesn’t care and be in a position to dump his ass. Also she says you should not be sleeping with these men you are dating ( another generation gap issue I think )
Basically it boils down to this and I agree with her here. If you have a non committal guy and he is dragging his feet and doesn’t want to move forward, saying to him “well you can have all the time you want to decide about a commitment but you cant have me all to yourself while your deciding.” would create a little distance for a man to realize he doesn’t want to lose you. But if he does want to lose you or just doesn’t care then you ARE better off with out him, and should get out and date other men. my problem with Rori is that she is giving dating advice from the prospective of a woman who has been married for 20 yrs Kudos on a lasting marriage but she hasn’t dated in a loooong time and things are different now than in the sixties or whenever she was dating. Also she obviously has a commitment minded man because he married her and she wasn’t doing all this cir dating crap with him when they were so how can she know that it works ?
Loren Bump says
Virtually all of whatever you articulate happens to be supprisingly legitimate and it makes me wonder why I hadn’t looked at this in this light before. Your piece truly did switch the light on for me personally as far as this particular topic goes. But at this time there is one point I am not really too cozy with so whilst I make an effort to reconcile that with the main theme of your point, permit me see just what the rest of the subscribers have to say.Very well done.
Amy says
I have been a big fan of Rori and a frequent reader on her e-mail list. She really captured a point with connecting to a man through his emotions. The one thing that always plagued me was exactly your point.. circular dating. I knew this was not it for me who have been in a relationship with a good guy for 4 years. And his response to Rori’s idea of this was mild outrage. This leaves a big gaping hole for not only long steady relationships but also marriage. Finding an answer to the question, “So, what about after marriage?” Seems to be an impossibility. But my point it I heartily agree with you that this is the major flaw.
I have read a few of your articles before while browsing around and I have to say that one thing leaves me feeling a little bit irked. I realize most articles about love are probably written from a females point of view and as long as this world exists males and females and the differences will excite arguments. But I just have a question and would like to make a point by it. I have been an insecure female as I take one of your past relationships seemed to be, from what I read. And I have worked through a lot of that inside myself. My partner is also somewhat jealous and insecure as well. My question is this. If you saw your wife looking at glossy photos of men regularly, what would go through your mind? Would you wonder why she needs this separate satisfaction? And this leads me to ask, do you hold yourself to the same standard of confidence? Are you as confidant as you require your partner to be? Personally in my relationship I see a double standard and in the end, even though the score is even, I am the insecure one.
Yes, kind of a rant of my own. In the end we are all just self absorbed and human. But somehow their can be a beauty in it. Anyways, thank you for the article, you are good to write it and maybe save a few innocent people from wrecking their lives. Wow, dramatic sounding but true.
mezzanine says
“I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first.”
Says who? Dr. Presumptuous? I stopped reading your post at this point because I don’t understand how an experienced relationship blogger could make that assertion, as if you’ve never given it a second thought, as if this is the way things have been since the 1970s so that’s the way they should remain. Did you decide yourself that relationships have been working well using this model? Please check marriage and divorce statistics.
I don’t agree with everything Rori advocates, but I do know that people don’t necessarily get to know each other better, deeper, or with more quality as gf & bf than they do simply dating non-exclusively until there’s a real comittment in place. And come to think of it, there are no gf/bf relationships in Rori’s philosophy — that would be YOUR blind spot. The whole point of circular dating is to keep yourself open and available for Mr. Right instead of burying yourself in a bogus commitment with Mr. Who Knows?
It’s also my personal belief that getting to know someone is much more efficient without a sexual involvement or cohabitation, because you’re seeing the person clearly rather than through a sex-fog or a familiarity-fog. It doesn’t take 3 years to know what you want with someone you’re dating, unless you’re having sex with them.
I hope you’ll examine your biases sooner rather than later. What may seem radical to you and many of your readers could be just the concept we need to begin finding balance, harmony and contentment in our relationships.
For instance – have you read Dr. Patricia Allen, whose groundbreaking ideas Rori bases much of her work on? If you’re not familiar with her work then nothing you say here has credibility to my mind, and you’re just another irresponsible attention-greedy blogger. If you have read her work, then evidently you need a refresher.
Evan Marc Katz says
@mezzanine – I know marriage and divorce statistics far better than you do, but that’s neither here nor there. Here’s all that matters:
Show me one man who proposed to a woman who was NOT his girlfriend. Seriously.
What possible incentive would a man have for buying a ten thousand dollar ring for a woman who is NOT committed to him? Why would a man propose to a woman who is “circular dating” to potentially be available to a different Mr. Right? Objectively, if you can date other men while I’m committed to you, you will NEVER get a ring. And if I’m dating other women (circular dating), you’d have every right to question my commitment to the relationship.
And if you can’t understand the logic behind that – if you’re so ground into your fantasy that women can be unfaithful (circular dating) and STILL get a ring – well, we can’t have a real conversation.
Finally, I know Pat Allen. I’ve read Getting to I Do. She’s a bright woman with a lot of good ideas. And if Dr. Allen concludes that a man will propose to a woman who is keeping her options open until her wedding day, then, by golly, I’ll have to tell her that she’s wrong, too. Just ’cause you’re a doctor doesn’t mean you’re always right, you know.
So instead of insulting me for telling you the truth about how men think, maybe you should listen to what an actual MAN has to say about commitment. And if you don’t believe me, try this experiment: round up every man you know and ask him if he’d propose to a woman who is NOT his girlfriend. Lemme know how it goes.
Clare says
Since posting my above comment, I have read Rori Raye’s work, and I must say, I ADORE her concepts about connecting to your man through being authentic about your feelings. Her concepts about being feminine, being in your receptive energy and being able to make yourself happy regardless of what a man does, is gorgeous too. Basically, her work is great for women, and shows a really wise understanding of women.
Until you get to the circular dating argument. I cannot get on board with this concept. To me, it ruins her other great work. For one thing, as Evan rightly points out, breaking exclusivity and dating other people is cheating. I cannot understand the need to go that far. Why can’t you just use Rori Raye’s tools of expressing your feelings about what you are unhappy with to your man, and if that doesn’t work, breaking up with him?
For another thing, YOU are allowed to circular date, the guy is NOT. She makes this very clear. He has to remain faithful to you, but you don’t owe him this obligation. I don’t know how this can be justified as anything other than an unacceptable double standard, and all the best of LUCK trying to get any guy to agree to it. Also, at what point (or not) do the relationships with these other guys you are dating become sexual?
Finally, as Amy rightly points out, what happens once you are married? If you are unhappy in your relationship then, then circular dating is no longer an option.
To me, circular dating is a superfluous part of the entire model. Sure, encourage women to go out and do things which make them happy, encourage them to hold out for a real commitment, but to carry on several relationships at once? I don’t think most women can emotionally handle it, and I don’t think most men would stick around for it.
Lynn says
Evan, thank heaven for your sanity and frankness. I can`t believe this concept of circular dating, I would never stand for it in a man, so why should I do it to him? If I don`t like what I am getting from a man, I just leave, full stop. Why would I want to blackmail a man into being with me? There seem to be a lot of very insecure women around. Sorry.
Dagaz says
@mezzanine.
Well, why not. Circular dating might work out perfectly. And woman will get married, after all. IF her only goal is to get married, period. you know, the whole nine yards: ring on the finger, wedding, honey moon and some pants walking in the house, so she can point out and to proclaim: see, I AM married!
Oh boy. she will get the same man: extremely unsecured, full of fears and desperate to get married, just for the sake of it.
because this circular dating is only for this type of women. and it will naturally weed out confident and easy-going men, because for them seeing the circular-dating woman is the biggest turn-off.
Oh yes, she will get married, i guarantee it, if she wants only that.
Fusee says
When I learned about this concept of circular dating I could not believe that it was seriously recommended to modern occidental marriage-minded women.
If we’re talking about casually talking to several men until deciding for the most promising one, a special man to investigate a relationship with, then sure! However I highly doubt that any reasonnable man will want to marry a woman who would be dating multiple people, regardless whether she has sex with them or not.
I would actually be wary of the decision-making process of a man who would desire to unite in marriage without some in-depth committed courtship beforehand (with sex or no sex). I think it is impossible to build the foundations of an emotionally and physically monogamous marriage within an emotionally or physically non-committed courtship. After all, even in the most conservative Christian circles, a courtship period where the man and the woman are exclusive precedes a proposal and a wedding.
Is a wedding all you are after? Then, go for it if it were offered to you in such circumstances. But if you’re looking to build a solid, healthy and happy marriage that has a chance to last for life, it is going to take much more than receiving a proposal out of desperation of losing a “deal” (“deal” consisting of a woman claiming love but dating other people).
Look, I can relate to the desire of avoiding non-comittal men. I’ve explained in other threads that I do not have time and energy for more trial-and-error/dead-end LTRs, investing the most precious years of my life with men who would rather stick to the status quo than challenging themselves and outgrow their commitment fears. The thing is, there are more effective ways to avoid such scenarios than by following this ridiculously unwise circular dating advice. Let yourself be known, communicate your needs with clarity from the beginning, focus on exploring your partner in depth and encourage him to do the same, but be purposeful and limit the courtship to a reasonnable but shorter period of time and do not cohabite prior to marriage.
One thing is certain to me: there is no way to create a solid, healthy, and happy marriage without a period of exclusive exploration and building of foundations. There is no way to build such marriage without being an authentic and devoted partner, without the willingness to be vulnerable, and without taking the risk of being hurt if the courtship ends instead of leading to marriage. This is what a courtship is all about: finding out if both partners are compatible for life. The answer might be a “no”. This would be sad but much better than a divorce.
This whole circular dating thing seems to be stemming from fear and/or desperation to me. Not the best ground to build the foundations of a life-long marriage…
mezzanine says
@ Evan Marc Katz. If you really think your experience, in which no man has ever proposed to a woman before sex, is relevant to a discussion about progressive relationship philosophies, you have a much longer way to go than I thought when i posted my comment the other day. Open your mind. Read some history.
Your ideas aren’t conducive to helping people develop better relationships, whereas Rori’s and Dr. Allen’s are. I have to wonder if that’s even an interest of yours. I fault myself for assuming so when I first visited this blog. You seem more interested in maintaining the status quo, which just so happens at the moment to favor men’s interests – which is exactly why radical ideas like Rori’s are so popular.
But congratulations on your blog traffic, that’s where your talent can be seen, The rest is just nonsense, and will remain nonsense until you open your eyes, and grow a larger perspective.
Bye now.
Evan Marc Katz says
Dear Mezzanine, I’m afraid you’re suffering from reading comprehension problems. Nowhere did I say that men have never proposed to women before having sex. I said men don’t propose to women who aren’t their EXCLUSIVE GIRLFRIENDS. And if you’re “circular dating” while he’s faithful and trying to figure out if he wants to marry you, you’re probably undermining the relationship and not going to get a ring. The challenge remains: go find me a man who proposed to a woman who was not his girlfriend.
As to your other specious claims about my ideas not helping people develop better relationships? Well, I’ve got over 1000 reader testimonials in my inbox that would indicate otherwise.
Your statement about the status quo “favoring” men only further illustrates your bias and blindness. Dating doesn’t favor men. It favors people who are confident, self-aware and have genuine self-esteem. If you’re a woman with all three of these things, you will have no trouble finding a committed man. If you do not have these traits, you will probably find that the status quo favors men’s interests, or some such bunk.
I wish you the best of luck, no matter what, and would encourage you to continue to read my blog/newsletter for free so you can learn what men think from a man’s point of view. Rori is wonderful, but the one thing she is not and can never be – is a better judge of what men think than I am.
Maggie Ram says
Well, there seem to be some lunatics on this thread (@Mezannine)
Anyway, I have read this concept of taking the relationship one step back from Dr. Grey, but in reality, it is just stopping being bf/gf and going back to just dating. I personally tried this once and it is just a slow death- a breakup for cowards. It is better to grow a spine and end it up. If the guy is serious he will try to get back with you. If not, you retained your dignity- at least there is not this feeling of “I continued giving this guy my time and he did not take the initiative to step things back up”. Because let’s not sugar coat it, it is an ultimatum- he knows it and you know it. Ugh. Regarding the other concept of just making more time for other things “dating yourself” or whatever- why use such a misnomer and make it so confusing? sounds more like an attempt to brand a technique that is really not innovative at all, just common sense.
Clare says
@ Fusee
I agree with you. Communication, communication, communication. In my experience, sincere, skilfull and diplomatic communication is hands down the most effective thing in any relationship, this circular dating thing just seems so unnecessary and goes too far.
I can certainly understand the intentions behind it. And like you, I can CERTAINLY understand the frustrations of waiting around for a non-committal man, and would never want to go there myself. But the way through this is by being strong, being your own advocate for your own needs and choosing guys really carefully, not by shopping your time and attention around.
Sorry Rori, I love ya, but I just don’t see it.
ashley says
These days, Rori Raye’s CDing seems to be criticized a lot. I’m not her fan, but i still think she has a point. Evan, you compared marriage-seeking and CDing woman to a man who wants to get laid in the first night. I think it’s a good comparison, how long would you advise this man to wait exclusively for sex? Two years? How long could you wait for sex,