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You’re standing on the sidewalk. She’s plowing over orange cones and through the yellow police tape towards a towering precipice.
Yeah, you’d try to stop her.
And the faster she accelerates, the more frantic you get, watching her willingly (and confusingly) speed towards the chasm.
I’m even gonna bet that if you were witnessing something so damaging, you might even put yourself in harm’s way to protect the innocent drivers. Maybe you wouldn’t dive in front of the car, but you’d run and wave your hands and scream at the top of your lungs — anything to avert what is sure to be a serious accident.
This is what it felt like to be featured on my friend Rori Raye’s blog last week, in a post entitled “The Circular Dating Argument”.
I went there to save some lives — and took quite a beating for doing so.
First of all, I need to establish that Rori’s a good friend and I have no doubt that all the women who read her are kind people. Over the past few years, Rori’s products have taken off like a rocket, inspiring a legion of passionate followers. Any time I’d like to think that I’m making a big impact on the world over here, I remember that Rori’s mailing list dwarfs mine.
Which is why I’m always flattered when Rori reaches out to tell me she enjoyed one of my newsletters or wants to mention me in a blog post.
And after an interview I did with her last week for her audio series, we engaged in an email dialogue about one of her signature concepts: Circular Dating.
The definition on her site is benign: “Dating several men (at least 3) all at the same time. You accept the date with the man who calls first, and do not shuffle times or even think about manipulating the schedule in order to get dates with the man you like best, or dates to the most fun places. Circular dating is about Free Therapy and practicing Rori Raye Tools. It is not about finding Mr. Right.”
Nothing to argue with here. What Rori calls Circular Dating, I just call “dating”. Be proactive, date lots of people, have fun, don’t get too excited about a promising prospect — we’re all on the same page so far.
Where this concept of Circular Dating breaks down for me, however — the reason I wanted to guest blog on her website — is this idea:
The concept of circular dating (CDing) is ostensibly supposed to last all the way up until you’re married. Meaning: a woman can tell her devoted boyfriend of a year that since she doesn’t yet have a ring, she’s going to see other people.
You hear that sound? It’s a record scratching.
Yes, there’s something highly discordant about this principle, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head for nearly a week.
Believe me, I understand the emotion behind Circular Dating. All you have to do is read this blog to know that I am intimately familiar with the frustrations and fears of women. And because way too many women have invested way too much time in men who decided that they didn’t want to get married, CDing is, presumably, a way of protecting oneself.
My argument against circular dating has nothing to do with a failure to understand women’s needs, a defense of selfish commitmentphobes, or a personal axe to grind against Rori or her readers. My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.
My argument against circular dating centers around only one simple premise: it doesn’t work when you have a good boyfriend.
If you have a boyfriend who is consistent and kind and also wants to be married one day, and you tell him, in a moment of insecurity, that you can’t stand waiting any longer — “it’s been seven months and we’re not engaged, so I’m going to start seeing other men” — you’re essentially taking a dagger to the heart of your relationship. And if you have a boyfriend who isn’t consistent, isn’t kind, and never wants to be married, there’s no need to “circular date”. Just dump him and find the man who treats you well and ultimately wants a commitment. And yes, it is that simple.
The friction here comes from women who want to KNOW that their investment in a man is going to lead to marriage. The problem is that you CAN’T know. All you can know is whether he’s a man of high character, a man who has spoken of a future, a man whose heart is in the right place. Beyond that, there are no guarantees.
No one wants to feel insecure and off-balance. No one wants to waste time on a dead-end relationship. But just because a man isn’t positive he wants to marry you doesn’t mean you break the bonds of exclusivity. If I’m your boyfriend and you start seeing other men, you are essentially cheating on me, and it doesn’t make me feel better about you, our relationship, or our future together.
That’s pretty much the gist of what I said to Rori’s readers. I used metaphors, anecdotes, capital letters, and wrote the way I normally do on here — blunt, powerful, and very confident that what I wrote has a sound basis in truth.
Not my opinion. Truth. About how men think. Good men. The men you want.
If you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away.
And try though I might, I can’t think of too many confident men who feel that their exclusive girlfriend has a right to date other men after 6 months, 12 months or 18 months, merely because she’s insecure that he might not marry her. She can certainly dump him (which is a good strategy when you’re getting past three years of dating.) But seeing other guys while you’re boyfriend/girlfriend doesn’t sit well with me. I speak for most men and remain firm in this sentiment. (By the way, if there are any guys here who are cool with your girlfriend dating other guys as a way of protecting herself and forcing you to shit or get off the pot, please speak up. I’m open to being wrong here.)
Predictably, then came the blowback.
I won’t go into details but I was told in a number of ways that I was wrong. That I was arrogant. That I don’t understand women. That I was verbally abusive. That my marriage was suspect. That my wife was a doormat. And so on and so forth.
I tried, in vain, to reiterate my point of view — which is that I’m offering a constructive, not destructive, criticism of circular dating. I don’t stand to gain anything from “being right” in this situation. But if you start to “circular date” when you have a man who is on the precipice of wanting to spend the rest of his life with you, you might actually be driving him away. And that’s dangerous if you believe that this is solid advice that considers how men think. It is not. It doesn’t consider how men think. It’s advice that may make women feel better, but doesn’t do what it’s designed to do. Which is why I felt like the guy standing on the side of the road, waving his arms, determined not to let any women go over the cliff with this well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, take on how to get a man to commit.
Naturally, I got run over in the process. C’est la vie. At least I tried. But since I still believe my take on the male mindset is equally valuable as any woman’s take on it, I wanted to respond to the main areas in which Rori’s readers falsely dissected and misinterpreted my argument:
He should know if he wants to marry me. No, actually, he should not. That’s why men date. To figure out, over the course of time, if he wants to spend the next 35 years with you. And that’s exactly what you should be doing with him, as well. Nobody told you to invest three years of your life in a man who has stated that he never wants to get married. Definitely not me. But if you have a boyfriend who wants to get married one day, but he’s not sure if it’s to you, your best bet is to give him lots of time to figure it out before proposing. If you’re under 40, we’re talking at least two years. Over 40, at least a year. But trying to make him figure out the answer to something that he couldn’t possibly know is a recipe for a breakup. Men don’t respond well to being told what to do. As Dr. Pat Allen said: “If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.” I’m not stating whether this is fair or not; I’m merely stating that it’s true.
Some men just know after 3 months, therefore all men should know that fast. Actually, anyone who claims to “just know” that it’s “right” after one week, one month, or three months has a very selective memory. I “just knew” that my girlfriend in 2003 was right for me. She dumped me after 6 months. Same with the one in 2004, who dumped me after 3 months. So much for “just knowing”. Look back at your history. You have a similar story.
The right man knows right away. You might have a strong chemistry and a great feeling about a guy, but lifetime relationships take years to forge, not months. Lots of marriages began with the man knowing right away. And a majority of those marriages ended in divorce. Be careful about rushing into things: you very well could marry the wrong man – where if you dated him for two years, you would have learned more about him and potentially averted a mistake.
A man who is right for you would not risk losing you to another man while he makes up his mind. Au contraire: the right man is a responsible decision-maker. And a responsible decision-maker doesn’t make the decision to marry a woman until he knows her for a really long time and can see how she handles life situations. He may rightfully determine that if his exclusive girlfriend handles her insecurity by insisting that she “circular date”, he could find a healthier relationship without all the drama, fear, and insecurity.
Playing it cool is denying my true feelings. We don’t have to live our lives as mere victims of our feelings. After all, just because you feel something doesn’t necessarily make it true. I had one girlfriend who nearly had a heart attack every time I picked up a Maxim magazine. She may have been entitled to her feelings, but her insecurity that I couldn’t be attracted to her if I was also attracted to a model ended up destroying our relationship. Even her own therapist told her that I was a normal guy and that she should temper her jealous overreactions. So while I’ll never tell you that you’re not entitled to feel what you feel, if what you feel (anxiety, fear, insecurity) becomes your boyfriend’s problem — when he hasn’t done anything wrong — it’s really on you to deal in a healthier fashion.
I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first. If you think that he should marry you because you’ve been together for three months and you love him, then he should have also proposed to about a dozen women he dated for three months before you. Right?
I should be allowed to CD ‘til my wedding day because I don’t want just “a boyfriend”. No one is asserting that you should be content to be merely a girlfriend forever. All I’m saying is that if you’re with a man who believes in marriage, you have to allow him to come to his own conclusions over time. And if you think you’re restricting your options by being faithful, then, by all means, circular date. You’ll just end up losing your boyfriend when you do.
A man who doesn’t marry you is selfish. A man who knowingly strings you along for three years when he has no intention of ever marrying you IS selfish. I’m not talking about that guy. I’m talking about men who do want to get married, but aren’t positive if they want to marry YOU. If I didn’t marry my wife after 16 months of dating, it wouldn’t mean that I knowingly used her for that time. It simply meant that I was trying on the relationship for size to see if it fit for the rest of my life and decided it wasn’t a good fit. MOST relationships break up because either the man or the woman comes to this conclusion. Yet MOST people end up getting married one day. This seems to conclude that most men are marriage minded; they might not necessarily want to marry you, though.
Your way gives men all the power, Evan. By letting men take their time to decide if they want to get married, women are relegated to become the selectee and not the selector. Not remotely true. Who said he has the power? Aren’t you 50% of the relationship? Aren’t you thinking clearly about his flaws and whether you can live with them for the rest of your life? Don’t you have the right to break up with him at any point if you conclude that he’s a good guy, but not your soulmate? Why, yes you can! Which means that BOTH parties are taking an equal risk when committing to each other without a ring — not just you.
CDing gives me my power back over a hot-and-cold man. Maybe it does. But I have a slightly different take on this. A) Don’t date other men. Dump him. Walk away with your head held high and say, “I really care about you, but I’m not getting my needs met here. This is too inconsistent for me and I need to feel safe. Good luck.” And don’t look back. THAT’s how you handle the hot and cold guy. If he comes running back, you may have a boyfriend. If he lets you go, he’s not the guy for you. B) Do you really WANT a guy who is so hot and cold, who leaves you walking on eggshells? Do you really want to be in that relationship for 35 years, where he’s so selfish or such a poor communicator that you never know where you stand? If so, then do everything in your power to get him back — including CDing. But the smart money – given that people rarely change – is on dumping him.
Why should one man monopolize my time? I want to explore all my options. I’m still having trouble fathoming this: the woman ostensibly wants a husband but doesn’t want a boyfriend because she should be out playing the field. Um, I hate to tell you, but the only guy who’s ever going to propose to you is the guy who has been your exclusive boyfriend for a year-plus. And if you refuse to stop exploring your options, no guy worth his salt is gonna stick around. This is the epitome of false female empowerment. You’re not keeping your options open if you’re dating other guys outside of your boyfriend: you’re cheating.
Why should I spend 5-10 years with a man without a ring? Beats the hell out of me. Everything I’ve ever written tells you to leave a guy who a) never wants to get married or b) doesn’t propose to you in a reasonable amount of time.
Which is a great opportunity for me to distinguish between a man’s reasonable amount of time and a woman’s reasonable amount of time…
It terrifies me to potentially spend 2 years with a man without a ring. How am I supposed to know which is which? I can completely empathize with your fear. Millions of relationships have endured for far too long, even though they were dead ends. Especially when they’re dead ends. Once you’ve sunk enough time into anything, it’s hard to walk away, even if the relationship isn’t right. So my contention isn’t that it’s easy to be in a relationship when there’s no guarantee of a happy ending. It’s difficult and scary and insecure and all those other feelings you associate with being in limbo. My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love. At the very least, it’s far superior to being fearful and insecure, to the point that you break up with a marriage-oriented man after four months because he can’t guarantee you a ring.
Once again, I’m not basing this on my personal feelings about this. I’m basing this on common principles of human behavior: the way things ARE instead of how we WANT them to be.
My contention is simply that waiting, investing, and being vulnerable is the BEST way to find love.
Sure, it’s scary to be with a guy for 24 months and not have a ring. But the only way you GET the ring is by investing 24 months and being the kind of woman that he can’t imagine living without. If you start to make waves about how nervous you are after three months, six months, one year, etc… you’re putting a lot of pressure on the man before HE’S ready to make his decision.
And that’s the one thing that the Rori followers almost universally did NOT seem to get — that 50% of the relationship is about what HE wants. I know Rori’s message is about female empowerment, having confidence, etc. But if you’re tone deaf to your partner’s needs, you’re going to find yourself without a partner.
Same as the guy who tries too hard to get laid on the first date.
Same as the guy who thinks it’s fair that you pick up the check because you wrote to him online and make more money.
Same as the guy who never wants to hear about your day and only wants to talk about his…
This may or may not be a bad guy — but his refusal to understand your needs means that he will probably alienate you and lose the prospect of dating you.
And just because YOU want him to know that he wants to marry you within eight months doesn’t mean that HE’s going to know.
Case in point: I have five close friends who have gotten married in the past three years.
We are all college educated, literate, six-figure earners. We are readers, we are sports fans, and we dream of having families. We’re very comfortable around women, yet none of us would be termed an “alpha male”. We’re nice Jewish boys.
Every single one of these men — all GREAT catches — waited 3 years before proposing. Three of them even have older wives — 40, 41 years old — just like I do.
Why did it take so long?
Because they take marriage very seriously.
Because they didn’t want to make a huge mistake.
Because they really wanted to be POSITIVE before buying a diamond ring.
And if dating for two years, moving in together, and proposing when they felt it was right meant that the men felt confident going into their marriage, it seems to me that all five women who did it “my way” by playing it cool ended up WINNING.
They got married. They got the guys they wanted.
By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.
However, the ONLY way that all of us got married was because our girlfriends DIDN’T start dating other men when we were together.
If they DID start dating other men when we were together, the relationships would have been undermined — and, likely, destroyed. CDing wouldn’t make me feel closer to my wife. It wouldn’t make me feel like like I was losing my soulmate. It would make me feel like I’m losing someone who has no respect for my timetable, and is making a threat that is completely tone-deaf to my needs.
By playing it cool, not getting consumed by insecurity, and trusting that the man that you love does NOT want to hurt you, you allow him to choose you on his timetable, instead of putting pressure on him to choose before he’s ready.
So even though the idea behind Rori’s Circular Dating is to establish self-love and healthy boundaries, dating other men when you have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend is simply NOT EFFECTIVE. And if you don’t have a good, marriage-oriented boyfriend, I submit that you should break up with him. Who knows? Maybe that’s the only difference between Rori and me.
Taken to its extreme — which is what I’m talking about here – Circular Dating is a fear-based mechanism to protect women from commitmentphobes — yet it will alienate any man who is rightfully wants to take his time to figure out if he wants to spend the rest of his life with you.
To sum up, you should date around all you want until you have a boyfriend.
But once you have a boyfriend, the ONLY way to make it a healthy relationship is to TRUST. Your fears about wasting time only indicate that you believe that he is not a good enough man to want what is best for both of you.
You know the only guy among my friends who got engaged before 3 years? Me.
Of course, that’s because I’m a sensitive guy who spends every waking second listening to women’s needs and the last thing I wanted to do was waste my wife’s biological clock on my inner turmoil. After proposing to her in 16 months (half the time of my friends’ courtships, twice as long as most Rori fans seem to think it should take), I still wasn’t “positive”. But since I’d dated hundreds of women, and coached thousands more, I figured I was making a highly informed decision about my future. It turned out to be the right one and we’re the happiest couple we know.
Yet if a man had a marriage go bust, has been burned by relationships before, or has very little experience with women, so that he doesn’t really know WHAT he’s looking for, it will take him a LONG TIME to figure out if he wants to marry you.
I implore you, from the bottom of my heart, to allot him that time.
He’s a good man. He doesn’t want to hurt you. He just wants to be sure.
Playing it cool certainly doesn’t guarantee marriage, but it DOES maximize your chance of marriage.
And, as a dating coach for women, that’s really what I’m here for — to help you make good, informed decisions that will be effective in landing the man of your dreams.
Whether you’ve been reading me for a long time, or if you’re a Rori fan who just came over here for the first time today, I hope that my intentions are clear:
I’m YOUR advocate. I speak on YOUR behalf, not on behalf of men.
But just like a man can’t have a successful relationship if he’s ignoring your needs, you can’t have a successful relationship and ignore what your man is thinking.
I hope you’ll highly consider this respectful rebuttal from an informed male perspective and we can all go back to finding love once again.
Warmest wishes,
Evan
AS says
OMG – I am a woman and I can whole heartedly say Evan you are RIGHT!!!! How can you go off and date another man whilst you are in a relationship – note not just casual dating – because he has not put a ring on your finger in X months! What a load of (i’m so sorry to say) rubbish! Wonder how many of these women that are CDing have even had a healthy relationship? If they are in a relationship that is not giving them what they want, then clearly they should just break up with that person and find someone new.
Relationships take time to grow and you can’t expect to be married overnight. So I would like to share my personal analogy with you and other readers:
A plant cannot grow overnight from a seed, it has to be nurtured and go through a natural cycle of growth. If you’re overzealous and water it too much, eventually the plant will drown. Conversely, if you’re too laid back and forget to water it, through neglect the plant will dwindle away. The key is to strike a balance together with the natural growth cycle and you will yield a plant from a seed…
Ambi says
I love your analogy! With my ex of over 33 years, I dated up until the alter. I did not sleep with anyone else, but I did not cut myself off either. I didn’t advertise that I was still dating, and that was because ” we ” hadn’t come to the decision of being a couple.
I am now divorced and dating again. I’m in a relationship with one man and have seen him since the end of Jan. We haven’t discussed whether or not we are a couple. It has been four months. I am not sleeping with anyone else, but again go dancing and flirt with men. I also go to a gym where there are men. I don’t seek out men, they seek me out.
I’m not looking to jump into a marriage , for it takes time to get to know someone. Now if he says he wants to be exclusive, I would only date him. I would still go to my gym, and I’d still go to my dances. If he would take lessons or come to dances with me, all the better. But I’m not going to stop the things that are good and healthy for me, to be exclusive to one man. I’m 53 and don’t want to rush any relationship.
I believe there is a happy medium. If the person I’m seeing isn’t giving me what I need. I’ll ask for it. If they still can’t then it’s time to move on.
Blue says
Bravo, Evan, Bravo.
Get ready for the tar and feathers. You are still being discussed.
There is no way that I would risk the potential marriage to the love of my life by CD-ing. Dating yes, in the early stages, after I am in an exclusive bf/gf relationship? Not a snow balls chance in hell. I prefer to be the cool girl. And, I always have options, I can leave if necessary but I always have options.
I feel sorry about the beating you took over there. I feel you were highly disrespected.
Leslie says
I wonder how these women, who advocate CD’ing as a good way to establish a lasting marriage (an idea so out there and illogical that I won’t even go into that) would feel if a man said “If you don’t learn to like sexual act Y and Z in X amount of months, I’d going to start dating other people”. There would be an outrage! However, when women perform the same type of manipulation in the spirit of ‘female empowerment’ it’s completely normal and healthy. Right.. Female empowerment is about having equal access to finances, jobs, and decision making politicians, not going back and forth trying to force the other sex to be weaker.
Gem says
True woman empowerment is setting a reasonable timeline and walking away when your needs aren’t being met and you feel strongly that they never will be met (some women allow themselves to strung along for years and years).
But the suggestion to start dating others while still dating the guy you supposedly want to marry is insulting to the woman and to the man. It’s a manipulation plain and simple.
Besides, any new man she’s dating is just being used to strong arm her boyfriend. There’s no integrity in a choice like that.
RoseGrey says
I feel horrified by the accusations that were levelled against you, Evan, on Rori Raye’s blog recently. Even as a woman, I can appreciate that men are human beings too. Men have feelings too. The kind of good man that I want to meet would be looking for faithfulness in his partner before the engagement/marriage stage, just as I would be with him. The kind of good man I want to meet would not be thrilled to hear his woman announce that she is going to activel date other men until he proposes. It might sound and feel like a passive-aggressive rejection or break-up to him.
And how would he know that this pattern of seeing other men would suddenly stop upon the production of a diamond ring? Why should he commit to an unfaithful woman (even though she says she’s only meeting them for coffee, not sleeping with them)? Marriages break up over this kind of thing. And I fear that exclusive relationships with a view to marriage would too. Rori’s blog claims that faced with this information, a real man who is really interested would step up his efforts to win the woman. I fear that a man who is offering trust and faithfulness, and looking for that kind of stability in a partner as well, would turn and walk away.
The original context of Rori’s idea about this was that, after her then live-in boyfriend decided he did not want to go through with a planned marriage proposal. That is – he was clearly saying that he was not wanting to progress to engagement at that point. Many women would re-evaluate their options at that point, and consider ending or changing the relationship. Rori’s response was, “in that case, you can’t have me all to yourself.” Context is everything. Context creates meaning.
M says
It’s funny, I’ve been on your site, EMK, for a few years now. I visited and read Rori’s stuff as well and her idea of CDing is where I fell off.
How could you possibly be sure you want to marry someone if you don’t know them intimately? You can only get to know someone intimately when there is a level of trust and vulnerability that I would not give to a man that was dating several other women, so I think it safe to assume he would not give it to me, either, if I was dating several men.
I would not be ok with a man dating several women at 8 months in, how could I expect him to be ok with that from me? That seems to me the epitome of selfishness, IMHO.
I do know that I have been reading and participating in your blogs through 3 relationships, each one better than the last. The first was terrible and why I sought a relationship site out, which helped me leave that relationship and find a better one. That second relationship ended, yes, but it was a good loving relationship, just not my soul mate. My current relationship is more amazing than I ever could have imagined possible. This progression came from following your advice. I don’t know if this guy is “the one,” but I believe I will know in time and if he isn’t I am confident that is only because there is someone better for me (if that’s possible) out there that I have not yet found.
I honestly believe in the advice you give and think it contributed to my confidence and positive outlook on relationships, even the ones that end. I don’t think advising women to remain unavailable is the way to convince a man that he wants to marry them…again, IMHO, as a woman.
Foolingmyself says
OH boy, I had red Rori’s blogs for quite a while. I considered using her advise after 3 1/2 years of a LDR not moving forward. I was giving all my time, love and devotion to a man who was not doing as he said. He told me early on, within 6 months, that he wanted a future with ME. Yet, he talked the talk, he wasn’t walking the walk. We are not young, I in my mid 40’s now (was only 39 when we met), and he in his mid 50’s now. Yet, we still sit states apart, with nothing set for any forward motion, only talk. I do love him, and I believe he loves me, but there comes a time when a decision must be made. I have been battling what decision I must make for my future happiness (and quite frankly my current happiness). If 5 years ago, I thought I would be in the same relationship, still in different states, I would have opted out years ago. But what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it? I don’t want to break up with him, yet I am sick of sitting idle while waiting for him to decide where and how things are going to go forward. Sigh….
(DUMP HIM! – Evan)
Jackie says
“But what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it? I don’t want to break up with him, yet I am sick of sitting idle while waiting for him to decide where and how things are going to go forward.”
It is clear that you already have your answer but I understand if the answer isn’t exactly what you like to hear let alone accept. As hard as it is but you have to be strong and trust your gut on this one. If it doesn’t feel right then it probably is. MOVE ON…It is better to end your relationship now rather than to prolong your agony by wasting your next 5 or even 10 years wherein you could have spend those times for more important things and people in your life.
Nicole says
Evan is a very, very brave man to repeatedly stick his head into that hen house. I’d never seen that blog but wow. I feel like I should get a drink and a bag of popcorn to read all of it.
What is interesting is how they aren’t paying attention at all to his philosophy and are just picking and choosing things to attack.
I mean, he’s written here and there that if someone is wasting years of your life, clearly move on. But 6 months isn’t a long time, and yes, even if you are older you need to be patient.
And there seems to be disagreement over there about what circular dating is…some sound like they are dating lots of people as they move towards exclusivity, and others are using it to manipulate.
I think that people are also forgetting that sometimes you can get so caught up in “winning” that you don’t notice that what you are fighting for is basically a turd. The best man won’t have to be manipulated into giving you something that he’s not sure he wants to give. And just b/c he gives it to you doesn’t mean it will last, esp. if he got strong armed into the decision.
But part of the problem is that people will play games and if they get the “prize” they’ll tell themselves and everyone else that it’s the best way to do it.
I will say I appreciate the viewpoint b/c even if I feel a mess inside, I at least don’t let it show and make these mistakes that pretty much guarantee failure.
Janet says
Nicole, I love it! Evan is a wise man (and brave for tackling these particular hens), but you have nailed the “winning at any cost” mentality we women sometimes have. Fighting over a “turd” indeed. Been there!
M says
@Foolingmyself-
Dump him. It’s hard, yes, but it will be harder another year in, and another… This man has shown you his intentions. He is not meeting your needs. Someone will. Go find him. You deserve that.
Good luck, I know it’s easier said than done, but believe in yourself and give yourself that much worth to go find what you deserve. 🙂
martine robertson says
I did read and buy Rori’s material for some time. The circular dating issue was always a struggle: for all the reasons outlined by you and the readers of this blog; and because its actually a nightmare trying to find a date in the first place (I am an attractive, fit engaged with life, and funny 60 year old).
I waited 8 years using Rori and counselling to shore me up in what was a relationship with a deeply narcissistic man. I am sadly quite damaged now, and not quite sure how I got into such a situation.
I really hope that I will be in a healthy relationship again, my best supporter is another man with whom I was in a relationship for 26 years, so I know I am OK.
But where to find sympatico men…that is the challenge.
Marvin B says
Great post Evan.
I must say, I took a look over at Rori’s blog to see the discussion that was going on and I must say that I totally shared your sentiment and have tried to explain the many points that you have revealed here today to many women who feel that they’ll “keep their options open” because they don’t want to feel stupid for investing so much time for it to only go pear shape and have to listen to their friends who may say “I told you so.”
In my personal experience, I have always wanted to date a woman for at least 12 months before I even evaluate whether there will be any potential for a longer term commitment beyond a couple years.
i do hope your female readers, which it seems like a few have already 🙂 grasp the the concepts of what you’re saying about CDing with a boyfriend because you have revealed a lot of truths about how men think and behave in these situations.
If a woman isn’t comfortable, then she should exercise her 50% of the deal and end the relationship but only because her needs aren’t met and not to make seem like an ultimatum because as you say…a real man isn’t going to listen to that and will let her leave and look for a woman with less drama, neediness and haste.
Marvin
Janet says
When I read about Circular Dating some years ago after my divorce and subsequent breakup, I thought it was a revolutionary idea. I even wrote a blog about it! I’m so glad that Evan and a few others have spotlighted the problems with CD’ing in the interim–Rori Raye’s system works great for taking your focus off an emotionally unavailable ex- who you can’t stop thinking about but I’m glad Evan has made it clear it’s not a cure-all especially if you have a loving and attentive boyfriend. Why would you want to hurt him trying to force a marriage proposal by dating around? You wouldn’t. It’s a no-brainer.
Caroline says
I think this is such an important point Janet! I think that’s the missing piece and the bridge.
Rori has a lot of experience working with abused women. For anyone coming from that direction, you need to build some power know-how AND you’ll have unhealthy patterns around what you tolerate (through no fault of your own, because being treated badly became a normalised experience). Even if in your head you know the behaviour isn’t o.k. you’re still deeply wired to accept it and so moving on can feel emotionally impossibe.
Her CD approach can help someone transition away from unhealthy relationships. I could see it working really well for women who are -in essence- still accepting a relationship that just isn’t right for them. They’re not being treated well, and CD gives them a half-way out, something that is more possible to do for them than just dump the guy. And hopefully, it will help them get to a point where, they can just dump the guy and not accept anyone like that the next time around… and then CD is no longer needed. And by that point, they’re in the domain of the good guys, so they don’t need CD and using CD would be incredibly disrespectful and perhaps even abusive. That would be the abused becoming the abuser 🙁 .
I do think part of making that switch to good guy territory possible involves learning real emotional healing skills though. At some point, you need to be able to work through and be with your own old hurts and insecurities. A distraction strategy of putting all your focus on something (or someone) else doesn’t solve the problem.
Fawn says
Evan, well done! I am 50 and have been dating my boyfriend for a year and a half now. He was coming off a twelve year marriage when we met and I knew he needed time to heal. I knew this because a few years earlier, I had left a 12 year marriage and the last thing I wanted to do at the time was get married again. It’s been about four years since then. I can honestly say he is BY FAR the best guy I have ever known or dated. He never lets me forget how special he thinks I am or how right we are for each other. Our relationship feels organic, and you know what – I trust him. I trust that he wants to be with me and I trust that when the time is right he will marry me. He is worth the wait. Ladies, take it from someone whose been there. Don’t try to rush the guy. Take your time to get to know him so you know it’s right. I wish I had done that before I got married the first time – I might have avoided a lot of heartache.
m says
Evry relationship is diff. Love ea other meet
ea others neeeeds. When the guy wants marriage its the best. Lke evan sz be cool be the best gf be yourself. Sme guys lke drama dnt create drama be loving peaceful to ur bf.
🙂
Gem says
Foolingmyself,
“what’s a woman to do who has vested 5 years, time, love, traveling,, and hopes that this was it?”
That’s the rub. It’s very difficult and emotionally confusing and scary to move on when we focus on what we’ve put into a relationship -the time invested and so on. If you use your investment as a reason to stay, you will. Instead focus on what you’ve learned these years, how you’ve grown, what you want and what you deserve.
Decide for yourself where and how things are going to go…
I know a gal who was strung along for 7 years, finally got a ring and sits there waiting for the wedding 4 years later. That’s 11 years. Everytime she thinks of leaving, she thinks of all those years invested and if she leaves, wasted. But every year she stays with this man is a year she’s not with the right one who does right by her. Even though she stays, she’s not happy or content or fulfilled.
SS says
My thoughts on investing…
If I was a stockbroker and stayed with the same losing stock for years (while other stocks were remaining steady or going up), I would be out of a job. Especially if my mindset was, “But I’ve already invested so many years in this one stock, so I can’t give up now! It was so promising when I first put my money into it!”
MsMM says
Great analogy!
NN says
What is this marriage thing you are talking about? Why is it so important?
The thing is, that most people I know as couples, live with one and other for years.. sure some get married, some separate, some divorce, some may live together for 20 years..as living together is the main way here in Scandinavia… and about half of people have a child/ children that way too – and it is totally normal.
A lot of people get married after getting pregnant, but a lot of people don’t – having children out of wedlock while living together is not frowned upon, as marriage is to a lot of people just an institution that qualifies the widow half of the inheritance if the spouse dies – child gets its legal share anyway, so no big difference there.
The circular dating thing.. Well, the men I know.. if their partner would date elsewhere that way, they would walk out of relationship – it is considered cheating the trust even if there is nothing else there. Women here consider that cheating too, as it is a break in the commitment to the relationship.
Dawn Allen says
Bravo, Evan! And I know how difficult this experience must have been for you to go through. As a dating and relationship coach myself, I love what Rori stands for (empowering women) but I have promoted your book to my ezine list in the past because I think you bring such a very enlightening viewpoint about men for women to be aware of.
I also am an advocate of Pat Allen’s work and I wholeheartedly agree with you… a good man would struggle with his steady girlfriend giving him a deadline for a ring only to then go out and start dating other men.
In my personal experience, the really great man I’m with would have been out the door if I had told them I was going to start dating other men after we were in a relationship, simply because he hadn’t decided yet if he was ready to get married.
In addition, as a woman, isn’t it a whole lot more fun to have the experience of being asked to be married by a man when it’s completely his own idea? Not because we’re pushing him into it? Letting him come to the conclusion on his own that he doesn’t want to spend the rest of his life without you?
I don’t want my clients in go-nowhere relationships either, nor do I advocate staying with a man who runs hot and cold. But I agree with you wholeheartedly that the answer is just to dump him and move on.
I advise following my favorite Oprah saying, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them… the first time.”
I will continue to promote your book and your information to my list, Evan. And I think Rori is doing some great work in the world helping women, but I agree with you completely about every point you made in your post and I applaud you for the courage it took to stand up and speak your truth, in spite of the undeserved backlash.
Good relationships, engagements and marriages are worth waiting for… and good men are worth waiting for as well. And it’s worth letting them be the man and decide when they’re ready for a lifetime commitment to the woman of their dreams 🙂
Blessings and much love,
Dawn
Carrie says
Haahahhahhahhhahha CDing???? That is the craziest thing I have heard in the dating world! Thank you Evan for taking the heat on that…but really…this shouldn’t even be a topic. CDing….whatever…..hope it works out for those who
are willing to try it. Then will come a big “I told ya so”!
Carrie
Margo says
I agree with Evan. Once I commit to a relationship with a man who has told me that he’s interested in marriage and having a family, I’m not going to date other men (i.e. cheat on him) to get him to propose faster. If I were a woman over 40 who wanted kids, I wouldn’t wait 3 years for a proposal. However, Evan did specify that caveat for women in that situation. Good job, Evan!
Theresa H says
I also follow Rori’s blog / newsletter and have learnt alot of good attitudes / techniques (lean back / modern siren etc etc.) but I must admit the ‘circular dating’ has always been the concept I have a real problem with. Aside from the emotional energy involved in dating a number of people for a length of time…once you like a guy, and he clearly likes you…it seems like such a sad waste to spend precious time with someone else. Also…can I mention the physical aspect? if I’m at the stage where I’m sleeping with someone I really dont want them or me dating anyone else.
Ellen says
I have received emails from Rori, and you for several years…and I find her advice to be directly opposite from yours…..She seems to be asking women to “act” this way or that way…..buy her book and find my inner siren. . . . .Use tricks as it were to attract and keep a man…..and Circular Dating sounds like the most manipulative behavior that I can imagine…..So, hang in there, keep telling us how men feel, and act and think, and stick to your guns…..I believe you are the real thing.
Liane says
Hi Evan! I have enjoyed your writing for a long time now but have never commented – but this time I had to say something. After reading your post this I went to Rori’s website and can’t believe that so many people think that is a good idea! Sadly I think the reason those women are single is expressed by their attitudes in the comments. Anyway, just wanted to say I hope you aren’t bothered by it! Any normal person would think dating others up until the time you are engaged (or making getting engaged after 6 months a requirement) is insane. So don’t let it get you down 🙂
Maeve says
My first impression after reading Rory’s blog post was that it sounded a lot like dating for folks with a very fearful-avoidant attachment style. I think the mindset leads to the dating style and there’s little anyone can do to argue with it; it would be like arguing with someone’s favourite colour or vacation spot.
So, here’s the thing: I would be completely, utterly terrified if a man wanted to marry me after three months, or even six.
OK, I have been in that situation, and it DID terrify me. Three months! Cripes! At that point you’ve hardly gotten to know each other. A guy who’s certain that he wants to marry you that early has blinders on and is just desperate for a relationship or a commitment. Yeah, you can rush into that thing, and then ten years later rush out of the marriage with all the fun that entails. Really. I WANT the guy who takes his time, because I know he’s sane and when he actually wants to commit, it’s because he wants to commit to me, and not to the idea of being married, or the fantasy about me that he’s built up in his head.
Reminds me of the three little piggies, and the house made of straw vs. the house made of brick. The house made of brick ain’t built in three months.
I love the conversations here. Your readers are all so bright!
ValleyForgeLady says
I am chuckling to myself…..How does any decent discriminating woman who has a career, friends, perhaps chldren find the time to cruise out there to find two other men to date while she is tryiing to manipulate the love of her life to marry her? This sounds like some bodice ripping romance novel……not reality.
It is hard enough to find one guy that hits the mark…let alone three. Even with on line dating….most people are having a tough time finding one person who is compatible let alone a harem of men to date.
Men and women today are time and financially challenged. Who can afford to be really playing the field if you have a decent person in your life that has long term potential?
Venus says
Sooo how exactly does TRUST work in this circular dating? And while woman is circular dating is it also ok for the guy to circular date? And with everyone circular dating when do we find time to explore the possibilities of “Us”, Wow.
I am looking for monogamy. If any guy tells me he wants to circular date I am cutting him off!! “Sure honey go ahead and circular date, just remember to take your stuff when you are leaving,”
I totally agree with your advice Evan.
Jane says
I have never posted on here although I have been an avid reader here and on Rori’s blog so I will cautiously attempt an opinion here…
Circular dating doesn’t mean dating a man per se. Rori claims you do it even when your are married. I took it to mean that you make yourself the center of your life and all around you (the circle) is your full life. And you do not give up this life when a man you care about/love comes into the picture. I took it as a similar thing to the mulligan(?) analogy your wife made awhile ago. You can “date” your job, your friends, your children, family, hobbies, the man at the store who you just smiled at…it means that your life is full and happy and not focused on ONE man who you make responsible for your happiness in life. It makes YOU responsible for your happiness. You are standing in the center of the circle and YOU are the focus. Many women meet a man and give up all the other parts of their life and focus on HIM. That’s what makes them insecure and impatient and, finally, demanding and unreasonable. By keeping your life full, the focus is off any one man for the responsibility for your happiness. By keeping your life full of things, you can sincerely give a man that mulligan because whatever he did was not and is not the end of your world. And by being full of your life and happy, he will be attracted to you if you are the right one for him and it will work out. And if he is not attracted to you, your life is full of possibilities and happiness and you just keep riding on. She tells you to engage with all men and learn from them and figure out what triggers your bad feelings so you can learn to be authentic with everyone. She never suggested being intimate with more than one man at a time; she advises against it as far as I can tell. I think she is about building your self-esteem and being vulnerable and authentic and feminine. And so I can see where her readers would get defensive and “triggered” because it has been a process for them to get to where they are and it is probably working for them. So maybe they took it the wrong way from a masculine, direct point of view. I think you are both great and both saying the same thing. She is definitely not about cheating or dishonesty or anything like that. And she does not usually advise “dumping” the guy and never advises hurting anyone. Anyways, as I said before, I think both of you are great! It’s Christian Carter who is the problem….lol, only kidding!
Liz says
@ Jane. Bravo and well put!
Irene says
I am Rori Raye’s reader. Pretty much have been summed up in Jane’s comment. But I would like to appreciate Evan for shining light on Rori’s point of view. He is right. They both are and it’s just that they have different ways of explaining the details concerning dating. Evan is tough and rori is soft and emotional…maybe it’s because they are of different gender 😊. I love them both.
JK says
Jane, you articulated RR’s concepts PERFECTLY!! I think Evan (although his insights are wonderful) misunderstood the concept and then took it in another direction. haha hence all this uproar! You really hit the target! Thank you so much for your wisdom.
Echoes says
This is what I suspected…from the bit I have read, she seems quite esoteric and her terminology should not be taken literally. Circular dating doesn’t mean creating a circle of men around you, it just means that when you are dating someone (even exclusively), he should NOT become the center of your life. YOU are the center (or for some of us, perhaps our God), and you have many things surrounding you (ie a full life beyond your romanctic relationship).
If you find yourself stressing after 7 months of dating that you are not yet engaged, then it is a sign that you have made the man the center of your life and your life is lacking in other areas. The idea is NOT to start dating other men if you are in an exclusive relationship (that you want to give more time), but to shift focus off of the man and build up the areas of your life that you have likely neglected. The panic comes from putting too much expectation on the relationship to fulfill you. The problem is not how long it takes men to make up their minds about getting married, but how much significance you have been giving it in your life.
But if you focus more on other areas of life, then if it does not work out, it was not such wasted time and is not such a devastating blow. He was only ONE aspect of your life during that time, not the center. In short, maintain yourself as the center, and you will keep things like “engagement” in perspective.
Gina says
Wow! This really hit home for me. I felt that my ex – whom I had been dating for a little over a year – had been stringing me along. Therefore, in my next relationship, I was going to protect myself by dating other men until I had a ring on my finger. After reading Evan’s advice, I will no longer consider this as an option if the relationship becomes exclusive. Rather, I will wait and see how things progress. If after a reasonable amount of time, the guy appears to be stringing me along and can’t make up his mind, I’ll do like I did before and walk away.
Once again, thanks for spelling this out in detail Evan. So sorry for the flack that you received for telling it like it is.
Aanmfmay says
Evan, kindly, after all I’ve been thru.. never mind.. I couldn’t handle a man who’d give up on me in a ‘moment of insecurity’.. no matter what I did or said (within reason here, no abuse!) I’m looking for unconditional! Get me! Love me the way I need to be loved stuff! If that means sticking around helping me heal some past trauma well then I’ll stick around to help you heal from yours too! It’s not personal and yet it all is! very much so.. Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?
Words have meaning says
You keep using that word “moment”. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Moment:
1 a : a minute portion or point of time : instant
b : a comparatively brief period of time
If you think that dating other men is something that takes place in a moment then you are very much mistaken.
EB says
Thank you Evan! I appreciate what you are trying to say here, and I agree, Although I AM A fan of Rori’s, the idea behind CD’ing seems wrong if you are in a good relationship. It seems like a double standard to me to date other men while he “makes up his mind”. Sure, just starting out is OK, but once things progress, how can I expect him to trust me if I am out doing who knows what with other men? And then, to expect him to NOT date others is selfish and unfair!
I agree that sticking with one man if he is GOOD is the best choice. If after a reasonable amount of time ( this can vary by person) your needs have not been met, then cut him loose – don’t openly cheat and expect that to improve the relationship!
kenley says
ValleyForgeLady,
I completely agree with you. I do find dating just one guy exhausting considering all the other things I have going on in my life. I can’t imagine adding two more to the list.
starthrower68 says
I think once you are in an actual exclusive relationship, at least a year is not unreasonable. I think two is quite reasonable. I was engaged to my ex husband for 2 years; we dated for 4 before that. We still ended up divorcing because we were a couple of stupid kids who didn’t know anything and didn’t grow up until it was too late. To be honest, if I find a good decent man who I know is not stringing me along, I see no reason to rush. My biological clock isn’t ticking, as I’ve had my kids. Like him, I want to be sure before I remarry. You have to go through the seasons of life together. And at this point, I’d like to just be in a relationship with a good and decent man for a while. It’s going to take some time for me to be ready to think about marriage again.
Shouraku says
Dating more then one man is not necessary for me to be happy with my life and get my emotional needs met.
Dating more then one man is not necessary for me to keep my life “full”.
Dating more then one man is not necessary to stop me from making one man responsible for my happiness in life.
If you have a problem with fulfillment in your life, or you make your own personal happiness the responsibility of someone else, then you have problems that need to be solved within yourself. Not by dating piles of men. Dating many men will not stop one from walking all over you, YOU will.
It seems to me that all the issues that circular dating proposes to solve could also be done by being honest and realistic with yourself. By setting boundaries and sticking to them, and accepting when a person is not compatible with you instead of attempting to change/force them.
Whenever I am presented with dating advice, I always try to stop and consider how executing the advice would affect my partner and how I would feel if I were in their shoes. Frankly, If someone told me that they were planing to date around (even with no sex involved) until I proposed, then I would feel pressured and unwilling to give my full attention to someone who saw me as an option instead of a priority.
Awesome Comment says
I love this comment. It contains a lot of common sense. I couldn’t more agree with every sentence you’ve written.
Sarahrahrah! says
@ Gem – #4
I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Evan, you are right on again! it wasn’t discussed in your article, but another consideration for CD is the STD factor. It’s just not safe. Women shouldn’t put up with that kind of behavior and neither should men.
Evan Marc Katz says
@ Aanmfmay: “Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?”
If my girlfriend of 16 months confessed to me that she was nervous about my not being sure that I’d marry her, I’d listen and validate her concern, and ask her to trust that I’m going to do the right thing.
If she kept carrying on about this insecurity, it would suck the life out of our relationship, which would suddenly become a weight instead of a positive, buoyant force, and I’d wonder if my whole life would be spent trying to give my girlfriend reassurance due to her own insecurities. It might not break us up, but it would certainly slow down my desire to put a ring on her finger. Happy confident people respond better to happy confident people and have little time for drama. Sorry, but it’s true.
Finally, if my girlfriend’s insecurity led her to circular date – to make herself happy and minimize her emotional investment in me – I’d be out the door. Not because I don’t love her. But because that’s not how you deal with insecurity – she can’t reasonably expect loyalty from me if she thinks the answer is to date other men.
If you believe that the “right” guy is there to heal your past trauma, I would suggest that you try healing your trauma before entering the relationship. Most men don’t respond well to the pressure of trying to make you whole. It’s not their job; it’s yours, and Rori would be the first to acknowledge it.
She and I simply disagree about the ramifications of this CDing process. If you read this blog and the comments closely, you can get a good sense of what the healthiest men would think about CDing.
Lucy says
Evan, unfortunately this article reveals an inaccurate understanding of Rori’s CD concept, which is admittedly complex and nuanced. Stripping it down to a straw man argument doesn’t help anyone, and only serves to create conflict where there need be none. The reason women resisted your gallant efforts at preventing their car wrecks was bc they rightly knew that they were not in danger. Perhaps we see the wings that you do not. As I have said before, I believe you and Rori are actually in agreement.
Lucy says
Trying to explain and apply CDing to your readers questions will give them a very inaccurate perception of how it actually works. It’s like you taking a beginners ballet class and then trying to use what you learned to teach seasoned dancers The Nutcracker. I would feel good about you putting more advanced study into the art before attempting to explain it to others, especially in a way that criticizes what is not understood. With respect and hope for greater understanding. Lucy
morgan says
NN @ 14
Thank-you for saying exactly what I was thinking after reading Evan’s post. What is the obsession with marriage as the ultimate goal of a relationship?
I’m wondering if it’s an American thing. I’m from Australia and have many friends who haven’t bothered getting married but whose relationships are marked by natural steps in commitment – exclusivity, cohabitation, investing in property, having children.
Dave says
Evan, I am a very healthy man and my work is with singles and couples. Rori’s principles, including CDing, are fantastic tools when correctly understood and applied. They are some of the best tools for specific relationship issues that I have ever seen. With all due respect, you seem to for the most part misunderstand how to use them. With my clients they are working wonders – saving and creating healthy relationships right and left. I hope you explore Rori’s ideas more thoroughly. Respectfully, Dave
Lucy says
Jane 24. I agree with you – Evan and Rori are saying the same thing.
Grace says
Evan, thanks for attempting to set things straight in your friend’s blog. Pity your concept was not well undertood and appreciated and you had to take such unpleasant blows.
The thing I like about your blog is the male point of view. Whether I like it or not, whether I accept it or not – you give us the male point of view. It may surprize me to know that this is how men think, but I believe that that is the value of your blog for me, a woman. If CD-ing is not well precieved by men (relationship oriented men, to be precise) then no amount of self esteem or self assurance, or whatever else that may come from it and make the woman feel better would be effective in achieving the end goal of getting the guy to commit. Because as you say- it would drive the man away. Thanks for reminding us that men need time, sometimes more that we think.
Diana says
To Jane #24, I think you described Rori’s intent perfectly. I have been reading Evan’s and Rori’s blogs, etc. for a few years, and my interpretation of Rori is the same as yours. I am not a user of her tools or a poster on her blog, but I don’t think of circular dating as dating at ALL in the traditional sense. While I have learned from Evan’s blog more about how men think, I have also found value in Rori’s blog for how a woman can thrive and love in a confident, attracting and attractive way without being a slave to her feelings, especially when it comes to men or a particular man. I have noticed that a lot of the writers to both Rori and Evan display similar traits and habits in their dating relationships: insecurities and staying with the wrong man are the biggest.
I don’t find a lot of what Evan has posted here in Rori’s work. I didn’t read the blasting from last week. Maybe some of her ardent readers, of which there are many, misunderstood a man’s take and interpretation about Rori and her approach. Or maybe I’m clueless and/or I’m only taking away from each of their wise words and experiences what feels right to me and fits well into my life. Rori did make me more aware of those things in life that trigger ALL of my emotions and how better to handle them which will naturally flow into better relationships down the road.
I think both the direct writing style and man’s view that Evan shares, and really getting in touch with and understanding your feelings and femininity that Rori shares have a valuable place in the world of dating experts. 🙂 Along with Christian 😉 and The Tao of Dating.
SS says
I read a book by another author who recommended a similar idea. At the time I was dating a great guy and it just didn’t feel right to accept dates from others when this great guy was going out of his way to show me how much he was interested in something serious with me.
I’m glad I followed my gut and did not engage in circular dating, as this great guy ended up proposing.
So I agree with you on that Evan.
The only area where I take issue is the idea of waiting for 2-3 years past age 30 for a proposal. It’s fine if someone wants to do that, but two was my limit, and even that was pushing it for me. In my head, my boyfriend had about a year and a half to propose and even he agreed that if we both knew what we wanted, there was no reason to continue the dating process instead of working to build a life together.
I was not going to be moving in with him either unless it was a few months before the wedding (personal choice), so perhaps that sped up the process of engagement as well.
Neither one of us had been married, nor do we have kids, so we didn’t have to overcome any fears from past marriages/long-term relationships.
While less than a year might seem to be a little fast, I don’t think that it’s too much for a woman past 30 (and especially 40) to seek a proposal within the general vicinity of a year. While I certainly was not going to dump my boyfriend if he hadn’t produced a ring on Day 366 of our relationship, I also wasn’t going to coast along in the beginning of Year 2 without having an idea of where this relationship was going and if he was seeing marriage in the very near future.
Luckily, I didn’t have to worry about that.
SS says
Honestly, I don’t care how people in other countries approach their relationships. If people in Sweden and Australia want to cohabitate, have children and never have a marriage certificate, that’s perfectly fine with me.
That doesn’t make my desire for marriage invalid or wrong. Just as it would be wrong for an American to criticize Swedes and Australians for not caring as much about marriage, I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to question why someone wants to be married.
The fact that many Americans value state and/or religious-sanctioned marriage does not make us “obsessed” with anything. Marriage is an institution that many Americans value and there isn’t a darn thing wrong with that.
Karl R says
Aanmtmay said: (#26)
” I couldn’t handle a man who’d give up on me in a ‘moment of insecurity’.. no matter what I did or said (within reason here, no abuse!)”
We may have a difference of opinion about what qualifies as being “within reason.”
I’m certain that you would find a few other actions besides abuse to be unacceptable during a “moment of insecurity,” such as infidelity. For most of us, those actions would include someone who continues to date others after we agree to date exclusively.
If you want a simple guideline, I expect my fiancée to act with integrity, even when she’s feeling insecure.
In general, I suspect that you want a partner who makes you feel more secure in a relationship, not less secure. Would you feel more secure if your boyfriend started dating two additional women? Would you feel less secure? Why would a man feel any differently.
Aanmtmay asked: (#26)
“Would you have let your now wife go if she had had a ‘moment of insecurity’?”
If a girlfriend’s insecurity had led her to start dating other men (after we agreed to be exclusive), I would have stopped emotionally investing myself in the relationship, distanced myself to whatever degree I felt necessary, and started dating other women.
When my (then girlfriend, currently fiancée) had a moment of insecurity, she started asking some questions so she could get some clarity. At that point in time I believed that would would eventually end up married, but I thought it was too soon to propose.
That’s how you handle a moment of insecurity with integrity. If you handle it in a way that lacks integrity, you will compromise your boyfriend’s trust in you.
Jane said: (#24)
“I will cautiously attempt an opinion here… Circular dating doesn’t mean dating a man per se.”
It’s rather clear from Rori’s post (linked to above) that circular dating includes activities that could be considered dates.
And the way you externally describe an action affects the way you internally perceive it.
If my fiancée wants to dance with another man, that’s fine. If she wants to have coffee with a coworker, that’s fine. If she wants to have dinner with an ex, that’s fine. But if she refers to any of those activities as being a date, then I have a huge problem with it.
And if the guy she’s with believes that it’s a date, I expect her to correct his misperception.
Jennifer says
I’m not a reader of Rori’s blog so I missed this big dust-up, but when i first heard of the circular dating concept i was appalled much like everyone else here, but once I read her explanation of what circular dating while in a relationship actually is (basically, ‘dating’ is a total misnomer) it is in line with what Jane (post #24) described. Which is much more reasonable.
The problem of course is calling it ‘dating’. But hey, titilation and crazy-sounding ideas are attention grabbers.
Jennifer says
To clarify #43, I’d heard of Rori and circular dating and investigated more to get my understanding of it before this blog entry.
The Other SS says
I’m enjoying this conversation but the labeling and judgments feel terrible. If circular dating doesn’t feel right for you, then don’t do it. It’s that simple.
CDing personally works for me. It’s a choice I’m making for my life right now. And it’s changed my entire view about dating and about myself!
If exclusive dating is working for you and getting you the relationship you want, then brava!! But the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. If exclusive dating isn’t working, maybe it’s time to try something else. Or at the very least be open to it. Who knows…
Regardless, I highly recommend CDing!
Karl R says
Jennifer said: (#43)
“I read her explanation of what circular dating while in a relationship actually is (basically, ‘dating’ is a total misnomer)”
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
If Evan and I can read Rori’s explanation of circular dating, and we both understand it to include casual dates with other men when you have a serious boyfriend, I would consider it highly likely that a fair number of Rori’s regular readers have interpreted it the same way.
As best as I’ve been able to determine, Rori uses “circular dating” to describe three different concepts:
1. Leading a full and happy life outside of the relationship.
2. Casually dating multiple men until you choose to date one exclusively (and he explicitly brings up the topic of dating exclusively)
3. Openly dating outside the (formerly) exclusive relationship if the woman feels the man is taking too long to propose, in order to inspire the man to take some form of action.
The only problem I have with the concept 1 is that it’s misleading to describe it as dating. Otherwise, I’d say it’s a healthy attitude for everyone.
Evan and I would both describe concept 2 as “dating.” Though I’d say either the man or woman can ask for clarification as to whether there’s exclusivity.
And concept 3, which would cause a lot of high quality men to assume the woman has lost interest (or lacks integrity).
So if you look at the full spectrum of what Rori advises under the blanket term of “circular dating,” it includes some good ideas, and some really bad ideas.
And Evan has focused entirely on the aspect that’s a bad idea. That’s the part where a warning is necessary.
Rori Raye says
Hi all, This is Rori Raye, and I feel so honored to be part of sparking this great conversation. I totally love Evan – both as a man and as a relationship “guru” – and I refer my clients to him often. Every time I get one of his newsletters, I wish I’d written it – and I incorporate his ideas (and credit Evan for them) into my work all the time.
Thank you Jane, Lucy, Dave, Jennifer and others for helping clarify what Circular Dating actually is (yes, it can include actual “dating” – but that’s not what it’s about). And since my whole work is around authenticity, vulnerability and telling the absolute truth – I am always working against strategies, games, and hiding things from your romantic partner – or even the man you’re talking to at the moment (which is essentially what CDing is about – talking to, relating to, practicing being your authentic self with men, women and children wherever and whenever you encounter them “out in the field”). How this is done when you are deeply involved with one man is, yes, complex, and I’ve created an entire program around how Circular Dating works and how to use it – so it’s not easily or quickly explained. It is, like so much of my work, an “Inner Game” tool using outer circumstances.
And – it doesn’t even matter. Even if Evan and I were totally opposed, and I don’t think we are (he’s on one of programs, and I just interviewed him, and I love his guest posts on my blog and apologize to him and all of you on this wonderful blog for any negative reactions he’s experienced there) – we are all so different. We all operate differently and experience differently and learn differently – and, for me, it’s so much better to have all these different ideas to try out and choose from.
I thank Evan for his passion, clarity and ability to help women get the love they want, and look forward to sharing more ideas.
Sincerely, Rori
Ruby says
I have read Rori Raye’s emails about circular dating. I’d call it a strategy to light a fire under a man who is taking too long to propose. In the examples I read, this was not suggested after a few months of dating, but after many months or years, or after a man who initially wanted commitment started dragging his feet. My take-away is that it’s a way of maintaining the relationship with conditions, rather than breaking up outright. It’s not about cheating or being unfaithful, as some have implied.
I’m not really seeing what the big deal is. If breaking up works for you, then do that. If circular dating sounds like a good idea, then try that. Either way, if a man wants to step up to the plate, he will.
Bridget says
To me it seems like cd-ing would be like getting a little taste of everything, like a sampler platter. If your guy can’t further commit after numerous years and the fried cheese sticks are getting cold, he should be just as responsible for dumping you if he doesn’t like the idea that you want to order the sampler platter. Afterall, when you feel like a good catch and the fisherman is fishing for you but doesn’t really care if he nets you or not, can make a person feel a little unwanted. While at the same time he doesn’t want any one else to catch you either. Thats when I think cd-ing is only fair.
TXBirdy says
Ok, there seems so much fuss over this to me…
I’m a long time Rori fan, and think Evan’s got a great point. For me, CD is revolutionary, since I’ve dated only 1 person at a time in the past. So I’d have a date with Guy 1, and go about my life, wondering about date #2, hoping he’d call, or whatever, but not dating anyone else and hanging by the phone with bated breath, no matter how hard I tried not to.
With CD, I am dating a few others while Guy 1 takes his time deciding if he wants another date, spends time out of town, or whatever he’s doing that I didn’t hear from him for a while. I can meet Guy 2 and catch some live music, go for cocktails on the patio with Guy 3, along with lunches with friends, a movie and dinner on a me time outing, or whatever else I enjoy. (All CD examples per Rori, so CD can also mean time with platonic friends, quality self care time, etc.)
None of the guys has any exclusive commitment with me, so they may (or not) choose to date other ladies, not my business. So maybe for me, CD keeps things less focused on any one guy until we are ready to be exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend. I have chosen to explain CD and utilize it in this way until I feel a man I’m seeing in a more casual way proposes more. And I communicate this to them honestly, wanting to take my time to choose only the man I want to marry before I get exclusively involved. Now I realize we may then date exclusively for a couple years before marriage is a likelihood- I feel comfortable with that time frame.
I just don’t want to close my options to others and focus on only one man if I’m not feeling that he is a good fit- funny, perhaps I agree with Evan more than I realized?
So Evan, I’d like your opinion: what is a reasonable time frame to date someone before getting exclusive? How long is too long to wait for exclusivity and give up hope that (s)he will ever agree marry you? How long is too long to see if someone’s a good fit? What do you think?
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks, TXBirdy. To reiterate, what you’re calling Circular Dating is simply known as “dating” to men. We date lots of women, until one really seems to set herself apart, and then we start investing more time in her and push for exclusivity. Now, to be clear, exclusivity means that you are now boyfriend/girlfriend; it does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that you are definitely getting married. People who commit to being in an exclusive relationships are essentially leasing, with an option to buy. And that lease runs for about 2-3 years before most men are ready to make that buying decision.
As for how long before you give an exclusive relationship a shot? Some folks dive in after one date because they “feel it”. It’s a great feeling, but it’s often misleading. More common is a decision made within the first 6 weeks or so. And if a guy hasn’t indicated he’s serious within the 3 months at the VERY LATEST, I would assume that he wants exactly what he’s got: a low-stakes, once a week, status quo, semi-booty call. That’s why he’s only calling you one a week and not escalating his efforts; he doesn’t WANT to. On the other hand, if calling you every day, making an effort to see you every weekend, taking his profile down, introducing you to friends and family, etc, you’re probably on the path to be a girlfriend. Just don’t accept the once a week guy for too long – your boyfriend wants to see you more than that.
A-L says
I had briefly been on Rori’s e-mail list and that’s where I first heard about circular dating. As far as keeping a full life that does not revolve around your significant other, yeah that’s a good idea. But continuing to date multiple people until you get a ring on your finger? Like most of the folks here, that doesn’t work for me. Nor does it sound as though it works for the men.
By the way, I don’t know if I missed the engagement earlier, but congratulations Karl to you and your fiancee!
l says
Evan, I totally think you have a great blog and bring up a lot of great points. I am sorry you were critcized for stating your opinion. I don’t think you deserved to be criticized. I think healthy debates and discussions among people who have different opinions, while keeping true to your own knowledge is one of your biggest strengths. You want to say what you think and hear from others as well. And you have helped so many people. On the plus side, you really opened up a dialogue with most people agreeing that too many women (from experience, as I should certainly know) put too much stake into a guy and don’t keep their life going for themselves as well as they should. Doing exactly this whould help women: 1. make better judgements because she is not so desperate and perceiving herself as not having choices, and 2. making herself more attrative to the guy by being more interesting and having a life. Anyway, keep up the great work you are doing.
Twilight Princess says
I disagree. I think that Rori’s blog is providing a great service. Finally, a blog that provides a kind of Darwinism for dating. Those women are not being reasonable… clearly. If you can’t be reasonable you will be cut from the dating pool. SORRY! That kind of works out for the good women and men looking for a decent date. Honestly, women or men that think CDing is healthy for any relationship is wrong. They are doing exactly what they expect men NOT to do. Commit to me!, but I’m not going to do the same for you.???? Ummm… what? Isn’t there a word for that? (hypocrite?) How can you expect a man to commit to you if you are out investing your time and emotional being in ‘X’ amount of other men? This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. Honestly, how do they have the time for dating that many people?! I think everyone in my circle of friends and family, including myself, would be VERY uncomfortable with the idea of being engaged after 3 months. That’s preposterous. Knock! Knock! Is anybody home? Evan, those women are bonkers.
Sincerely,
26, FEMALE, in a relationship(thanks to the advice on THIS blog) and REALLY hoping I never become that cynical about dating should my current relationship come to an end.
P.S.- You’re making way too much sense. That’s going to have to stop.
LVD says
Hi!
I’ve been following both Rori and Evan’s work and I see this situation as a complete misunderstanding of what Rori means by circular dating.
As she said, she has a whole program about the concept. It quite complex. EMK is focusing on one tiny detail without understanding the overall concept. No surprise that it doesn’t make sense to him.
Rori is not an advocate of game-playing and manipulation. In fact, quite the opposite. She is all about encouraging woman to be authentic and real and take responsibility for what they are creating in the relationship.
I feel really sad seeing her teachings being torn apart by people who haven’t taken the time to really understand what she is saying.
I also feel disappointed by the way EMK was treated by a few of Rori’s readers, actually really only one commentor seemed out of line. The rest of it seemed to be a fair discussion.
Of course there was some debate. I mean, what do you expect EMK? Your tone was a little pushy and over-bearing. Women do not like to be told that they are wrong and can’t make wise decisions for themselves. Nobody does.
When you come in with an attitude like that, why be surprised if people don’t respond well it?
My ultimate message is that as someone who has studied both Rori and EMK, they are saying basically the same thing. Just using different terms, and communication style, and somewhat of a different target audience.
EMK, I recommend that instead of trying to tear cd-ing down, you should try to understan it better. There is a mojor point to it that you are completely missing.
Evan Marc Katz says
LVD,
I let your comment through, despite the negative comments about me.
And while you, and Rori’s fans, can reiterate the complexities and nuances of “circular dating” that are above my head, I still haven’t quite grasped what I’m missing.
So please, instead of telling me that I’m pushy, overbearing and have a negative attitude, I would really appreciate you reading my post and telling me what I’ve gotten wrong.
It’s 4 pages long, so there’s lots to work with. Where did I misquote my friend, Rori? Where did I twist her philosophy or slander her readers unfairly? And which bullet point of mine is bad advice?
Because, really, I don’t care if you don’t like my style or my attitude: all I care about is that my advice is going to help you understand and connect with men BETTER.
And until you can illustrate to me that expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic…or that dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more, I’m going to stick by my analysis.
Ball’s in your court.
What did I get wrong?
LVD says
Also, I apologize for making negative comments about you. That was unfair. To be truthful, although I really like most of what you say, your style is a little too “in your face” for me. I’m a woman and I respond better to a certain amount of gentleness but I dont want to be negative about you or your style because of my own personal preferences.
I’m happy that you are putting your own unique style and voice out there and I feel certain you are helping many people, myself included.
LVD says
“And until you can illustrate to me that expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic…or that dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more, I’m going to stick by my analysis.”
I do respect that you asked me to illustrate these points.
***expecting a man to KNOW he’ll marry you within 6 months is realistic
***dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more
Neither one of these concepts are what cd-ing is about.
My understanding of what Rori is saying is…if marriage is very important to a woman, then be true to that. She is not saying that women should expect a man to know if he is ready to marry by 6 mos. Not at all.
She acknowledges that people have different time frames for when they know, both men and women. She advises women to stay focused on the relationship they want. If a woman wants to be married soon, then it doesn’t make sense to be exclusive with a man who needs a lot of time to decide. The woman is being true to her dreams.
I do agree that some women get hyper-focused on being “married” and forget about the beauty of the courting stage. They get insecure and want to rush things. They even try to manipulate. And some women do use circular dating to manipulate their men. And I agree with you that that would push a smart man away.
But that isn’t actually what Rori is recommending. Not at all.
It’s a small scenario taken out of context of the big picture advice she is giving.
And she’s not saying that ” dating other men when you already have a committed boyfriend actually makes your boyfriend want to marry you more”. She’s saying that if the relationship isn’t moving at the pace a woman wants, then the woman needs to be honest with herself and do the inner work to see why she’s feeling insecure and impatient. If through doing that she comes to the conclusion that the relationship isn’t working for her as it is, then she needs to be open to other options. She doesn’t dump the man. She gives him a chance to step up if he feels inspired. Her focus isn’t to make the guy want to more. It’s to be true to herself.
B says
I agree with everything LVD said, and I don’t feel she was being as negative/defensive as Evan. Circular Dating works, and that is from personal experience not stuff I read online and never even tried and then judge it – what Evan is describing here is not at all what Rori advocates for. I’m not a “Rori Fan” or trying to defend her or anything – it is just personal experience that when you really get CD for what it’s meant to be it is very powerful.
Emily says
I’ve read all this with interest. For the record, I completely agree with Evan. Furthermore – I don’t think I would have the heart to keep dating if I really loved my boyfriend. I wouldn’t WANT to go on dates with others – unless, said boyfriend was a means to an end, i.e., I’m more excited about “being married” than spending my life with that individual. No matter which way I slice it, I can’t see it any other way than a manipulation tool. I can’t see it working on ANY man.
My personal experience is with a man 15 yrs older and a confirmed bachelor. He will not budge on the marriage issue and he has gotten phone calls from me that go something like this, “I need to cancel our vacation this summer, I am sleeping with someone.” Ladies, this man is a longtime friend and he loves me, but he also knows we’ll NEVER see eye to eye on marriage and because of that, he runs the risk of losing me. AND HE ACCEPTS it! There is NOTHING I can do except NOT DATE HIM!
Now, if I met a man who was present, a companion and a partner, do you think for one second I would want to have the same dynamic with him? I don’t want to spend my life watch-dogging my man – and to me this “strategy” pretty much guarantees it. You force someone’s hand and you can never stop – tiger by the tail. Sounds like an exhausting and very insecure life you’ll lead if you have to rope someone in that way.
I have had a major perspective shift from simply wanting to get married (I still do, of course) to wanting to find someone who loves me unconditionally, whose company I enjoy and with whom I can completely be myself. I realize my push for marriage in the past has been because I didn’t feel secure in the relationship and I sought to ease that by trying to “lock-up” a commitment.
However, I can see where this 6 month time-frame makes sense to some women. I have plenty of examples in my own life of things moving at an accelerated pace. 3 years ago, my best friend went to her family reunion. She was in a ten year relationship and her boyfriend refused to accompany her (pretty jerky, right?). While there, she met her father’s best friend’s son. Three months later the 10 yr guy was gone, new guy was moved in and making an investment in my friend and her home and her friends (he fit right into our group). Another girlfriend dumped a man 20 yrs her senior after 5 yrs of hooking up and heartbreak. She met her future husband 2 weeks later, a month after that, they were spending every night together.
My point is that a speedy courtship CAN happen – but I think the point everyone is missing is that you can’t MAKE IT HAPPEN. In general, I expect that I’ll have a sense of peace when the right guy comes. I may not have verbal confirmation that we’ll get married – but I imagine I’ll have intuition or some kind of sixth sense that I can RELAX and TRUST.
I think these angry comments are coming from very scared women who are on the brink due to bad experiences. I think when a simple observation creates so much anger and judgment, you can almost be certain there are a lot of underlying issues. You obviously hit a nerve, Evan.
Margo says
Evan, I’ve already replied once to this post, but I think the thing that is upsetting so many women on Rori’s Blog is the three year time frame you suggest waiting for the proposal. Many women don’t want to wait that long and would feel more secure with the relationship if they were to receive a proposal after 2 years max.
River Girl says
Evan @ 56
One thing you got wrong is that nowhere does Rori suggest that it is realistic to expect a man to KNOW anything!! Sorry, couldn’t resist that twist ; )
What I love about what Rori teaches is that it is about NOT having expectations. It is about being yourself, knowing what you want, leaning back, being open and receptive and being surprised.
Karl R says
LVD said: (#55)
“EMK is focusing on one tiny detail without understanding the overall concept.”
The overall concept is fine. It’s that tiny detail that’s seriously flawed.
It doesn’t matter if your car is “overall” in perfect condition. One “tiny detail” that’s flawed (no brake pads or a cut fuel line) can turn the whole thing into a wreck.
Ruby said: (#48)
“this was not suggested after a few months of dating, but after many months or years, or after a man who initially wanted commitment started dragging his feet. My take-away is that it’s a way of maintaining the relationship with conditions, rather than breaking up outright.”
Your goal is to be married to a good man, correct? So you’re looking for a man who has integrity and is looking to commit.
If you’re not happy with the status quo (after years of waiting), Evan recommends that you leave. Rori recommends that you start dating others.
To an outside observer, which one of those actions has more integrity?
My fiancée and I got engaged about 19-20 months after we started dating. At the 12 month mark, I was rather certain that my girlfriend was the right one for me, but I wasn’t quite ready to get engaged. If she had decided to break things off because I hadn’t gotten engaged at that point, I would have taken the risk and stepped up before I was quite ready. My doubts at that point weren’t that big.
However, if she had decided that she was going to start dating other men, since I wasn’t ready to get engaged, I would have broken things off. I would have packed up my clothes and taken them back to my apartment. In my opinion, that would have been a clear sign that she lacked integrity, and I would have felt that I had dodged a bullet by waiting until I saw how she resolved conflicts.
Furthermore, if you’re still seriously involved with your boyfriend (if neither of you breaks things off), you won’t be able to get a man who has integrity.
If a woman has recently broken up with her boyfriend, I’ll assume that it’s likely that she’s not emotionally disentangled from her ex yet, and is unlikely to be ready for a long-term relationship. If that woman is still living with and sleeping with her boyfriend, it’s absolutely certain that she’s not disentangled from him. She’s a potential sex partner, but not a potential girlfriend.
Furthermore, as a casual date, I’m likely to assume she’s either cheating, -or- she’s in an open relationship. I’m not interested in a long-term relationship that’s open, nor am I interested in a serious relationship with a cheater. (If I was just looking for a quick fling, I probably wouldn’t care.)
How heavily are you willing to gamble that the next man you’re interested in will quickly grasp the nuances of Rori’s strategy?
How is this strategy more effective than Evan’s? To me, it seems to have a higher probability of failure.
Bridget said: (#49)
“If your guy can’t further commit after numerous years and the fried cheese sticks are getting cold, he should be just as responsible for dumping you if he doesn’t like the idea that you want to order the sampler platter.”
Let’s say your guy has no interest in ever getting married. He’s enjoying the regular sex, and feels no need to take it further. If you start circular dating, you’re still in a relationship with him, and he’s still having sex with you on a regular basis.
Furthermore, since you’re out dating other men, he now is at liberty to do the same thing with other women.
He’s still getting what he wants (with the option for some extra on the side). You still aren’t getting what you want. Why would he take the responsibility for dumping you?
How is this an effective way to get rid of the guy?
A-L said: (#52)
“congratulations Karl to you and your fiancee!”
Thanks.
TXBirdy says
Karl,
good points, but I’d like to point out that CD in ltr/non committal situations generally comes about when a woman sees her beloved isn’t stepping up, only promising, but not moving the relationship in that direction. Truly, I agree with Evan, walk away, but our hearts are still entangled, so another option is to basically break it off, and possibly still date the beloved ex, but once we CD and see just how much our ex wasn’t coming forward to meet our needs- maybe in commitment, maybe in any number of other ways, it is a lot easier to truly just walk away and let the beloved ex remain a part of our past- if we want.
And I’d say it seems everyone has their own arbitrary length of time alotted before the proposal step needs to be taken. I actually don’t- I don’t care when I get married, if I ever do, I want the right committed loving relationship for me, and I’ll wait as long as necessary for THAT-
so if my reltionship is wonderful and fulfilling to both of us, and I feel our commitment is there, I personally wouldn’t start to CD just because he didn’t propose in 6 months, or nine months, or 2 years….
But if I feel after 2 years of dating, we aren’t moving forward in our commitment, but still dating and seeing each other a few nights a week, etc, then I might feel it’s time to move on to dating others, because the security of a committed relationship is what I want, including marriage. And I am clear that is what I want up front as I begin dating any man, so it’s probably not going to surprise a man that I would move on after 2 years of stagnant relationship. If we still love each other, and we both want to work it out, it seems this gives the uncertain man a chance to salvage the relationship if he wants. I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.
I had a couple CD’s who I dated for 3+ months who didn’t call or see me more than 1x a week, often not even that… and then told me they wanted to be exclusive with me. That felt weird to me, since I hadn’t seen a growing relationship, so I didn’t agree to be exclusive- in fact, after 3 months of dating so casually I felt I hardly knew these men, nor them me, since they didn’t spend all that much time with me. I don’t want that kind of stagnant relationship, so I actually broke off seeing them totally.
Bridget says
Karl # 62. You ask ” How is this an effective way to get rid of the guy?” It’s not, b/c my intention is not to get rid of the guy. I love the guy, he’s fun, I enjoy his company. And yes, say you are right that he has no intention of EVER getting married. That is why I have the desire to circular date. B/c getting married is a desire of mine. It has come clear to me, that he and I are both comfortable with each other, and neither of us want to make a painful move. So I guess it seems to be easier to maintain a relationship and have the opportunity to look around. Even tho dating others has not been discused as an option yet between us. I am also 35 and would like to have the option of having kids before it is too late.
Karl R says
TXBirdy said: (#63)
“I don’t want that kind of stagnant relationship, so I actually broke off seeing them totally.”
I would say that you followed the effective strategy.
TXBirdy said: (#63)
“I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.”
Have you ever dated a man who had just gotten out of a long-term relationship, but clearly wasn’t over his ex? If you get the idea that a man isn’t over his ex, does it send up a yellow flag (or red flag) to you?
Let’s say you meet a man who was in a two-year relationship, he wanted to get married, but his girlfriend didn’t want to. He’s dating again, but he still hasn’t broken up with his long-term girlfriend yet. As a woman who is seeking to get married, would you consider this man to be a good prospect for a husband, or would he be sending up red flags?
This man is basically advertising that he’s not ready to walk away from his girlfriend, even though his needs aren’t being met. He’s deliberately leaving the door open for her. As a woman who wants to get married, would you waste any of your time dating this man?
Why would a marriage-minded man see the situation any differently than you?
Shouraku says
TXBirdy :
I think of CD when utilized this way as a less painful break-off for some who just aren’t ready to walk away when it’s clear their needs aren’t being, or ever going to be met, and leaving the door open for the ex too.
I do see the logic behind this. I see how it can save you pain and discomfort and prevent you from completely abandoning your slow-to-act boyfriend just in case he changes his mind. I get that.
However, read Karl’s post again:
I was rather certain that my girlfriend was the right one for me, but I wasn’t quite ready to get engaged. If she had decided to break things off because I hadn’t gotten engaged at that point, I would have taken the risk and stepped up before I was quite ready.
If a man has any intention of stepping up rather than losing you then he is more then likely going to do it whether you use CD or break up with him. One of those two methods has integrity, and like most other aspects of life, it is not necessarily the easiest choice.
Paula says
I have never met a man or woman yet who is ok with their partner declaring they want to date other people especially if they have been going out for a while and are happy together.
All that tells them is you dont really want to be exclusive with them and for a woman, instead of forcing a man step up to the plate and commit it will make him run away and find a woman who will be faithful. I am talking about normal guys who are capable of being faithful and want to get married and have a family.
I find some of Rori’s methods don’t work well with guys and others that are good and make sense.
Evan is correct when he says to assess a mans efforts and give him some time to figure out whether he is looking to spend the rest of his life with you. It’s a big decision for a man when he knows this will involve raising children especially if he has been married before and it didn’t work out. And while he is doing this YOU can work out whether he will be a good fit with your life, family and friends, whether you both have the same basic values and are capable of working out any differences when they do occur without it turning into World War 3.
Use some common sense and your intuition and keep it simple.
Twilight Princess says
LVD: Why does he have to be attacked because he was being straight forward? Evan is straight forward. If you read this blog regularly you’d see that. I think he’s being really nice. I really appreciate his blunt personality. When you reach a certain age and are still making rookie mistakes in the dating game what other choice do you have? Tough love! He’s not saying it to be insulting. He’s trying to get women to realize that this is a bad way to go about dating. If you don’t believe him, why don’t you give it a try? Plus it’s a debate, as you noted before, they can get messy. AND if you’ve been dating for a while and one thing doesn’t work why would anyone be so opposed to trying something new? Props to Evan. Never change your tone. Some people appreciate it.
Pokadots says
I agree with Twilight Princess. Why is it that just because someone does not like a “tone” should they expect to be attacked and personally insulted? Evan was resorted to defending his integrity and his marriage just because he voiced he did not like a dating principle being used. It’s one thing to be in your feelings as they preach on the RR blog, but you do still have to also know how to separate what is going on in you to what is happening outside of you as well. Not everything is personal and frankly as a woman, it actually did me a world of good when I stopped taking and seeing everything as such. Suddenly the world stopped being all about “me, me, me.” No offense but this is exactly the reason why I had to quit cold turkey going on the RR blog in the first place.
EE says
@Bridget 42 You want to have the option of having kids? Decide you want them or not and make it a goal (or not). Otherwise you might find yourself 42 and still wondering if you want them and OH DARN it is too late. I have seen this.
The painful move it is going to hurt whenever you do it; him for sure and maybe you too. It also might confuse the man you are considering being exclusive with with as you agonize over what to do. Maybe you handle this emotionlessly, but staying in this comfortable place will impair your ability to find a partner. It is certainly sucking up time and emotional energy when you could be looking. Good luck.
Anna says
I don’t see why all these comments are bashing circular dating. I see what Evan is saying about not dating other men when you have a quality man, and dumping men who aren’t quality. I agree. Waiting for a ring before you stop dating other people is a bit extreme.
However, I have been dating multiple people since before I ever looked up Rori or Evan’s blogs. And when you are in the early stages of dating (not sleeping together, deciding if you like each other at all, etc) I think it’s an EXCELLENT idea to date multiple people. And it DOES make the man pay more attention, IF he’s really interested in you. And if you’re not hanging on, waiting for one man to decide if he likes you, you’re in a better position. It’s the 50% thing. He’s dating other women, you’re dating other men. I think that’s perfectly healthy and more than reasonable (although a lot of men seem shocked that after 1 date I’m not willing to stop seeing other people!!)
When would you say is an appropriate time to stop seeing other people? After 3 dates? After 2 months? I agree that waiting for marriage is unreasonable, especially since I would not tolerate a man dating other women if I thought I might want to marry him…. but surely there must be some place for dating multiple people in the early stages, before you both agree to be exclusive.
Tina says
I adore reading what Evan has to say and I adore reading what Rory has to say. Both, over time, have written things that have helped me a lot and caused me to look inward and make some positive changes.
I have to agree with Evan on the circular dating though.
It’s particularly interesting since I live in a completely different culture. Here in the Mediterranean there is no way a woman could circular date without raising surefire hell or straight up losing a guy. Various Italian male friends of mine over the years have said that’s one thing they can’t understand about American dating culture – that it would be acceptable to date more than one person for that long. Sure, at the beginning before you’re a couple, you meet all kinds of people and date. But once you’re a couple you’re a couple. That’s just how it is here. And people decide pretty quickly that they want to be a couple, much more quickly than in the States.
If I were to insist on “CDing”, it would be pointless. I can’t change the culture where I am. I don’t have to 100% adapt either but I can’t insist that an entire country change its ways in matters of the heart. I tried to “CD” here but it only created stress and confusion and I stopped quickly. No thank you!
If a guy wants to only see me and is sure that he wants to be my boyfriend, AKA the only man I date, it seems to me the best thing to do is believe and trust and, if that’s what I want, say yes.
Tina says
P.S. I just wanted to add… to each their own, really, but I think that if we spend all our time trying all kinds of tricks & tools (however positive and useful) with the goal of getting married or what have you, we risk forgetting to just relax and actually get to know the person. This is why I personally can’t CD. Now that I have decided to be in a relationship, I much prefer the idea of sitting back, relaxing, and getting to know this man and hopefully growing with him. After all, that’s also MY time to decide if I want to spend the rest of my life with him. If I’m busy dating others, I can’t do that. But, that’s just me.
Emily says
Hi again,
I know my experience is not applicable for everyone but I am a 35 year old woman who has “left the door open” for my ex for 15 years!
Nothing has changed! He’s happy and comfortable and I have facilitated it. A clean break is the only way to go – it opens the door for someone new (there have been new people over the years but the “open door” presented a problem. Thus my conclusion that you need to move on before you move on).
I read on Rori’s blog that CDing is a way for you to maintain a healthy attitude and not be wrapped up on one man. And yes, also a way of breaking it off without breaking it off. Good for anyone who has the fortitude to date effectively while living a new sort of emotional limbo. I know I didn’t.
And how can you ever be certain that you’re dating for yourself – or to prove point or force a desired outcome.
I have seen in my friend’s lives that forcing a guy to make the call is NEVER the right action. One friend did it after 5 years of dating and they divorced after 10 years of marriage and she’s left with the realization that even though she was “successful” in getting him to marry her, she would have been better off waiting for the right man.
Like I said in my last comment – I think what’s lacking is a sense of peace in the woman’s heart about the man and the relationship. I think that uneasiness seriously needs to be honored. When I walk down the aisle, I want it to be with a happy man who made his own decision proactively, and not as a result of a threat.
If a man really is into you, the fear of losing you is generated from within and HE feels a sense of urgency. If it ain’t there and you “create” it, I think it’s a recipe for disappointment later on.
Also,
Waiting three years is nothing. It’s not because I have waited 15 that I say that. I think there are clear signs and messages when a man plans to make a lifetime commitment. I think those messages are being conveyed in myriad ways before he ever says anything and that you will feel able to relax, be calm and enjoy the organic growth of your relationship. 6 months or 3 years won’t make a difference when you feel the peace in your heart that comes from truly feeling secure.
I have to ask, if you feel the need to push or root out intentions, how is that a sign that you feel secure? Honor why you feel that panic. Explore if it’s you being unreasonable or him sending signals he’s happy not moving forward. In any case, I’d be extremely careful with this tactic.
SS says
I agree with EE.
Bridget, I don’t see how waiting around with a man who clearly stated that he has no intention to get married is benefitting you in any way. There’s not even a middle ground here — you want to marry, he doesn’t, discussion over.
So… neither of you want to make a painful move… but really, he’s not sacrificing as much as you are by continuing to stay in the relationship because he’s not the one who wants to marry. Sounds like a great deal for him (and rather selfish on his part), but since you’re going along with it — even though you want kids — he’s not going to cut the cord.
As much as breakups suck, I don’t get the point behind holding off on making tough decisions when you know you’re at a dead end. Yes, it will be painful, but that’s life. Just rip the band-aid off right now and deal with the pain, and then work toward moving on to someone who has the same goals.
Emily says
Good stuff!
Karl said:
Let’s say you meet a man who was in a two-year relationship, he wanted to get married, but his girlfriend didn’t want to. He’s dating again, but he still hasn’t broken up with his long-term girlfriend yet. As a woman who is seeking to get married, would you consider this man to be a good prospect for a husband, or would he be sending up red flags?
I have had one man call me out and pull no punches. He actually recommended I read a book because obviously I have issues. The sad thing is, on more than one occassion, I have thought that I met “the one” and that I could move on to a great life and put the ex behind me.
There are two problems with this. One, my new relationship wasn’t without it’s bumps and it was much easier to talk to the ex about the problems than it was to bond with the new guy.
Two: being with someone who doesn’t love or respect you enough to care about YOUR LIFE and your goals for said life is extremely detrimental to your self-esteem. Mine is in tatters. I literally could not function in my new relationship and did not know how to react when I was treated like I always dreamed.
Trust me ladies, BREAK IT OFF. It has been extremely hard for me to realize that I wasn’t ready for the life I’ve always wanted because I have spent so much time adapting to an unhealthy situation. You may think you will get out baggage free, but it will creep up on you, trust me.
Get out, get healthy. Find yourself again and then re-approach dating fresh. Dating with a heavy heart because you really love your non-committal man is not fair to anyone – especially the new guy!
Mercedes says
I posted on Rori’s blog about CDing but I wanted to post here as well even though I feel a little late to the party. I think one of the problems with understanding this concept is that on this blog (and on the recent posts on Rori’s blog as well), CDing has been portrayed only as actually going on real dates with other men. That’s how it starts, but there are lots of levels to it that encouage a women to keep her options open, not pin all of her dreams on one man and stay open to the possibility that even if this man does end up not wanting to marry her, she’ll be just fine as a sexy, vibrant, loving woman – without him. Some of the more “relaxed” approaches to CDing are things like having lunch “dates” with a male co-worker, flirting with the guy at the grocery store, taking yourself out to a nice dinner and flirting with men you meet (also known as circular dating yourself), actually MEETING men, etc.
When I did it, I actually went on dates with other men until I got the relationship I wanted (along with a forever commitment from the man of my dreams) but I think most women would benefit more from dating lots of men until one stands out and then slowly, as things develop with that man, move on to the other levels of circular dating.
Really the only thing that feels very discouraging to me about your take on it Evan is that you say it “doesn’t work”. It actually does if my relationship counts as one that works. I understand if you believe it “shouldn’t” work (because I feel the same way) or even if you don’t think it will work most of the time. But it does work. I’m living proof.
In any case, I wanted to share here what I posted on Rori’s blog so that you can see what happened with J and me. Hopefully it will resonate with some of you, but even if it doesn’t, I hope you will never the less enjoy hearing my experience and seeing how incredibly loving a couple can be, regardless of how dating is “supposed” to be done.
My posting from Rori’s Blog:
On circular dating: I can see where some people would be very hesitant to believe it can be a good thing and I can see where men, especially, would hesitate to believe it can benefit their lives.
One thing I can tell the ladies from a positive experience with it in my own life is that when you meet a man who is fearless of any real or perceived “competition” because of your circular dating, when you meet a man who is confident in the knowledge that the two of you are perfect and right for each other and when you meet a man who will do everything in his power to make sure he doesn’t lose you to some lame guy you went to dinner with last night….well…ladies…it is absolutely the most incredible feeling in the world. Knowing your man refuses to lose you and refuses to walk away and refuses to give up and refuses to believe that any other man in this world could possibly win you away from him and refuses to let you believe it either and refuses to let someone else fill up your time when HE could invite you out first…WOW! That’s pretty much all I can say…WOW! For me, I know J wasn’t about to let anything or anyone come between us. I’m not sure everyone gets to know that. I think we all believe it, but I personally KNOW he won’t let it happen because I KNOW he didn’t.
One thing I can tell the men here from a positive experience J had with it is that when you are feeling confused and unsure, when you are crazy in love and yet scared out of your mind to move forward, when you are hesitant to give up your perception of “freedom” or “bachelorhood” and when you are with a woman who takes her life into her own hands and makes a commitment to herself to go out there and get the life of her dreams and drives you crazy with desire and love…well…sometimes, in a really good way, it can cause you to feel something so different from the feelings above. Sometimes, it can cause you to know, without a doubt that this woman is the best, most amazing thing you’ve ever held in your arms and that you will NOT let her go. And sometimes, you will look back and wonder if you would have ever realized that had she not put a touch of fear in you and inspired you to tap into the confidence and power you always knew you had. And sometimes it encourages you to look at that woman and lose all fear because once you determine she is the one for you and nothing or nobody is going to stand in your way, sometimes, that can be the most freeing feeling of all…a feeling of freedom that WAY outweighs the single and free feeling.
Anyway…that’s how J and I experienced it and that’s how we feel about it. After listening to so many people bash it though, I am even more grateful that I am spending the rest of my life with probably the most confident, loving, amazing, manly, strong and fearless man EVER. No wonder he isn’t intimidated by other men!
(okay…that was a little biased…)
Much Love,
Mercedes
Mercedes says
Oh…I forgot to mention…those later levels of circular dating (like flirting and meeting men) will really help women change their vibe (and give them a bit of an ego boost) anytime they are feeling insecure or scared….even while married.
I don’t know how to explain it except to say we all know that twinge of insecurity when our man pulls away even the slightest bit. Like he isn’t being as affectionate as he used to be or he’s off on his own train of thought and not listening to us as intently or he’s spending a ton of time playing video games, etc. Our crazy voices can get us all messed up and wondering “what’s wrong” and “what did I do” and “I must not be good enough” and “is he cheating on me” and “I know I’ve gained weight but…” and “oh God I need to call my sister!!!!”, etc.
When those voices pop up, if we are already in the habit of and comfortable with the concept of circular dating, then instead of listening to the negatives or getting anxious over the “what-ifs”, we can instead lose our insecurities by getting out there and flirting, having fun, meeting people, making eye contact and smiling and enjoying a conversation with some random guy and remembering (because of his reaction) that we STILL got it so whatever is going on in the husband’s mind right now, it’s his stuff and not something we need to worry about. It helps us do what we KNOW we’re supposed to do…and that is give him time to go through his funk and not pressure him to talk about his feelings to us (even though, as women, we REALLY want to talk about his feelings).
It’s okay…we can flirt…and when we do, we come home much more relaxed and maybe glowing a little and really, a whole lot less concerned about how much time he’s going to spend watching tv tonight. Actually, this is about the time (you know…when WE’RE the ones that want to go off into our own heads and smile and think about our day) that he wants nothing to do with tv or video games or computers or working in the garage or whatever. When we circular date in this way…even while we’re in a relationship and even if that relationship is a marriage….our entire vibe changes and that man has no desire to leave us alone. Something about us attracts him and it doesn’t matter at what level we are circular dating…something is crazy hot about us and those men are very, very interested in being a part of our day.
The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man. 🙂
The second a woman nags about how little attention she’s getting from her man, the less attention she gets from her man.
I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. I do know it really can work…even though it makes zero sense that it would and I really know it worked for me.
Okay…hopefully I’m done with this topic now. LOL Thanks for sharing the space here for my opinion and experience.
Much Love,
Mercedes
Evan Marc Katz says
Mercedes: I appreciate you taking the time to explain the nuances of Circular Dating. I think that will certainly clear up any ways in which I might have misinterpreted it – and, as a form of self-love, I agree, it’s invaluable. But can you still not concede the validity of my two main arguments against CDing? It’s not that everything about it is “wrong”, but rather that, when you have a quality, relationship-oriented boyfriend, a) expecting him to “know” he’ll marry you within the first year is unrealistic, and b) expecting him to be cool when you “circular date” at that point is unrealistic. Those were my only two points and they seem to have been glossed over in your posts. Please don’t forget; the exception doesn’t prove the rule. In other words, I can foolishly push too hard for sex on the first date – and still ultimately get the girlfriend – but it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. You can tell your boyfriend you’re seeing other guys – and just because HE stayed, doesn’t mean most guys would. Would appreciate you addressing my two logical problems with CDing instead of merely explaining that I don’t understand it. Thanks for your contribution.
Mercedes says
I’m so sorry Evan…I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t understand. I only meant to say that on this blog and on Rori’s blog recently, I didn’t think the actual deep meaning and use of it had been explained well enough for outside readers (meaning those who don’t follow Rori so have no experience with it) would fully understand. My words were poorly chosen and I did not mean to gloss over your arguments at all.
I agree with absolutely every single word of this:
“a) expecting him to “know” he’ll marry you within the first year is unrealistic, and b) expecting him to be cool when you “circular date” at that point is unrealistic.”
I think there’s about ZERO ability to even speculate on when a man will know he wants to marry you. This is where Rori and I disagree. She thinks they know much sooner than I think they know. Reality is, each man is probably different in that regard and I’m guessing, depending on the man, it ranges somewhere between one second and one hundred years. We’re all so different where our hearts are concerned…how could we possibly put a time on something like that?
As for the guy being cool with it, J was not cool with it at all. Hated it. Every single second of it. Did not want to lose me and started taking up so much of my time that I didn’t have time to see other men anymore. I doubt he would be cool with me flirting right now if I was feeling closed off from him. I doubt very much he would be cool with knowing I’m striking up random conversations with men when I want an ego boost and he’s been lost in a video game for the last few weeks.
But he does notice the difference in me. And he does love me. And he does not want to lose me. Cool or not, he notices my vibe change when other men are paying attention and the sort of “competitive, fight for the girl, may the best man win” attitude comes out. In short, when my vibe changes, he steps up…even when he doesn’t know or doesn’t like the reasons for my vibe changing.
It’s like when a guy flirts with me right in front of him. His instincts cause him to step it up a notch. He gets a “she’s my woman” vibe about him and just so you know, it’s killer sexy when it happens. 😉
Grrrr…I’m frustrated…I wish I had better words because I think I’m offending you and I don’t mean to at all…I just want to explain what it does for me.
And I do agree, not all men will stick around for it. I don’t think I agree that MOST men wouldn’t (but that’s really hard to say). But I do believe that when a man is truly in love, he won’t let her get away.
I can usually write quite well but for some reason, I struggle with finding words that feel better to you because I want my contribution here to be so much more than “merely explaining”. This is my life and my heart and my love we’re talking about. I just want to let people know it can be as good as they imagine (even better) and it doesn’t matter how the dating process went.
Did that help clarify where I’m at?
Michael17 says
I can’t comment one way or the other about the effectiveness of Circcular Dating, except that men are indeed hardwired to try to win competitions with other men.
As a guy, I’m uneasy about Circular Dating, or at least how you go about it, for a different reason though. The guys you are CDing with (I’m not talking about the primary guy in your life, I’m talking about the others you are letting take you out), aren’t going to be too happy when they realize that you accepted their invitation for dinner when you weren’t really available. And for good reason–they were used by you.
Ladies, men are taught to be chivalrous. I hope you don’t take advantage of that in ways that it wasn’t intended for.
The flip side to CD is what is taught by those in the so-called Pick Up Artist Community. The philosophy of many in the PUA Community is to sleep with a bunch of women, spending as little time and money on each one in the process, until they find one that they want to make their girlfriend. To avoid “leading anyone on”, guys are taught to be vague about their intentions even while they are charming the pants off her. Is it even possible for the guys who try this, and does it help these guys find happiness when it comes to the opposite sex? Maybe. Do women like this? I mean, the girls who are having sex with these players were doing it on their own accord, but…
Bridget says
SS, I totally agree. I just have to clarify on one thing, he has actually never said he never wants to get married. He has given me the impression that he wants to get married someday, he is just not ready right now and doesn’t know when he will be. So I guess I hold out hope, but if I was able to date other guys I might not feel like I am being ‘held up’, and then either I meet someone else or he is ready to marry. Whichever comes first. What happens if the next guy doesn’t want to get married either? Maybe I am just not meant to be married because it shouldn’t be this complicated. My brain is exploding.
Mercedes says
Michael17 – When I was doing it, there was no dishonesty…there was no using anyone at all. The whole point is that i was available. Really available. I was not J’s girlfriend. I wasn’t anybody’s girlfriend. I was dating and looking for the man I would spend the rest of my life with.
When I met a new guy, I told him how I felt about being exclusive. You know what’s funny? The all said they felt the same way. I would say I’m not looking for an exclusive relationship right and that I’m dating lots of men and that someday I hoped to find The One and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said they were in the exact same place.
And almost all of them asked me out again. Even knowing I was dating other men.
And J asked me out again. Even knowing I was dating other men.
And as J couldn’t stand the thought of losing me and hated thinking about me having dinner or drinks or whatever with other men, he would fill up my evenings and weekends so that there wasn’t time to be with others. And all the while, he was stepping up. And then he gave me total commitment.
It was all good…not PUA style at all. But…I can see where some women would use it that way. Just want to say that I didn’t.
SS says
Bridget,
Well, there is some guy out there who will want to marry you, and it won’t take him years to figure it out either!
You’re absolutely right, it shouldn’t be this complicated… but to me, that again means that you are dealing with the wrong guy.
I’ll share a little of my own story (and it probably contradicts what Evan says too). I was dating this guy for six months. He knew I was interested in marrying. He said he was as well. Around Month 6, he suddenly said he didn’t know how he felt about marriage. Now, I wasn’t looking for a proposal in Month 6 and was probably fine with waiting two years for him… but, he said that because he was going to school to switch careers, he couldn’t see himself thinking about marriage for at least three years and at that point, he’d have to see where he stood.
Now I was 31 at the time, but that didn’t sound like a good deal to me. Stick around for three years (assuming we didn’t break up before that) for the possibility that he MIGHT want to start thinking about marriage then? I told the truth and said that I was uncomfortable with that period of time.
He ended up breaking up with me.
Six months later, I met a man who proposed to me one day to the year of our first date, and we married seven months later. This month, we will celebrate the second anniversary of that first date… so, we went from hello to “I do” in 19 months.
I’m not saying that everyone has to follow this timeline or that marriage has to happen that quickly. But you know how you said it shouldn’t be “this complicated?” Well, when I met a man who wanted to marry me, it wasn’t complicated AT ALL. Imagine if I had not stated how I felt to that first guy who was saying he needed about three years before he’d think about marriage… I might have sucked it up and still been dating him and hoping for the best…
The Year 3 mark with the first guy would have happened this month as well. Ha ha. Instead of feeling confused and frustrated about complications, I’m celebrating five months of marriage to the best man I’ve ever met — one who didn’t want to get married “someday,” but one who wanted to marry ME as soon as he possibly could.
Diana says
Mercedes #78, very true words … “The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man.
The second a woman nags about how little attention she’s getting from her man, the less attention she gets from her man.”
I think this is a difficult place for most women to reach, especially younger women, and to feel comfortable there, and to live authentically. I have noticed this between my former husband and I. I moved on, living and “dating” the world, so to speak; independent; free; continued raising our children completely without him; no longer a slave to the crushing grief he caused nor emotionally dependent, like a fix, on the deep seated commitment and love I once felt for him. I think he finds me more attractive than ever. 🙂
Mercedes says
Diana: I have no doubt he finds you more attractive now than ever before. 🙂 And yes…it is a hard place to get to and it is even a hard place to stay in once you find your way there.
But for me, fully understanding and applying circular dating (in the deeper sense – I’m not going on dates with other men anymore) is what keeps me there. It keeps my vibe where it needs to be, it keeps my skin glowing and my eyes sparkling and my man turned on.
Okay…there might be other things that contribute as well, but still…it isn’t hurting anything in my life by being open to the attention of others. 🙂
Helen says
Putting aside all the vagaries and stigmas of dating, can’t we just apply the Golden Rule here?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I wouldn’t want my man to be dating others if we were in a serious relationship, so I wouldn’t do the same to him.
It really is as simple as being a bit considerate, and thinking not just of what you want, but of what your partner wants, and of what is the right thing to do. In the long run, in every walk of life (not just relationships), acting with integrity always pays off. Always.
kenley says
In addition to the objections that have been outlined by many posters, my discomfort with CD is that ultimately it encourages women to constantly seek validation of their value as women through men. Her man doesn’t give her enough attention, then get it from lots of other men. That approach just seems unhealthy to me. Am I saying the attention from men isn’t wonderful and flattering and good. Absolutely not. However, I think the healthiest way to be is to know your value without having to constantly seek external validation from men or women.
Mercedes says
Helen: The key is not to be in a serious relationship with a man who isn’t giving you what you want. This isn’t about hurting men. It isn’t about cheating. It is about NOT getting into those situations where anyone hurts. J hated it that I was dating other men, butI also wasn’t “his girl”…I wasn’t hurting him…there is no reason I should have been exclusive with any man at that time. He wasn’t “my man” either by the way…he had every right to never ask me out again. I would have been circular dating but he didn’t have to be anyone I was dating. He had total control over that. All he had to do was stop asking me out. We were not, as I was dating other men, a couple. Instead of never asking me out again though, he asked me out a LOT more…until my time was literally booked.
Kenley: I agree…if this is the only way we are seeing our value then yes…it is a horribly unhealthy way to live. But if flirting and having fun and enjoying the company of others is ONE way to give us a little bump in the right direction then…healthy or not…it can make a girl smile.
If we’re discussing value and how to see value in ourselves, that’s a totally different issue from my perspective. But if we’re discussing circular dating and some of the benefits and some of the drawbacks, then getting a little ego hit is a benefit. 🙂
starthrower68 says
The part of this concept I get is being happy and fulfilled in your own life. I keep myself busy enough doing what I enjoy and being with my loved ones, be they friends and family, that I’m fine with or without a guy. Not in an “I don’t need no stinkin’ man” sort of way, but I have a life. I can be with someone becaue I choose not because I must.
Margo says
Michael at #81, a woman has to be a fool to fall for any of the PU tricks. They are very transparent and juvenile. As posted earlier, I agree with Evan’s stance on CD when you have a committed boyfriend and things are good. One thing bothers me about Evan’s position on waiting for a proposal though: Waiting for 3 years.
The more I think about it, the more I realize I won’t be waiting for 3 years. That’s too long. I believe Evan stated his friends waiting that long to propose. Honestly, I can’t understand why a man feels he has to wait that long to propose to the woman he loves.
Jadafisk says
“The second a woman authentically (and I mean authentically…no games, no trying to trap him, no ulterior motives, etc) doesn’t care how much or how little attention she’s getting from her man, the more attention she gets from her man”
I don’t think this is actually true… a lot of these “when you don’t want it/aren’t looking for it” adages, IMO, actually develop because when people are otherwise occupied, the same amount of time seems to pass faster – it’s the quintessential example of a person’s ability to regulate their own reaction despite their inability to regulate the behavior of others. What would’ve been nights filled with ardent pining are nights spent with other people being sought after. So crumbs of attention from the “primary target” are now the satisfying finish of a four course meal. Supplementing a relationship with an inattentive partner with other people may end up prolonging a dead end infatuation past its expiration date. That said, before a commitment, it sounds like regular dating – if a family minded woman isn’t dating several different people casually, she should consider it, due to time constraints. After a commitment, it sounds like breaking up. Also, how *is* a person marrying a woman who CDs up until marriage supposed to know if she’s even capable of committing? Is he allowed to date other people until marriage, too? Also, all of this can get *very* complicated and murky when sex is involved.
Mercedes says
Jadafisk: Try it sometime. Walk next to a person you are feeling close to. Want them to reach out to you? Don’t reach out to them. Want a person to lean toward you? Lean away from them. Happens probably 90% of the time. 🙂
I think this is an awesome question:
“Also, how *is* a person marrying a woman who CDs up until marriage supposed to know if she’s even capable of committing? Is he allowed to date other people until marriage, too?”
She most likely doesn’t date other men up until the marriage. She stays open, flirts and circular dates herself but isn’t exactly doing the “hey, sorry, can’t work on the wedding plans with you tonight, I’m having dinner with Bob”. She, when things are moving along with the man she wants to be with, allows him to move their relationship along while still staying open to the world so she doesn’t get so caught up in her dreams of forever with HIM that she ends up putting pressure on him. The post indicates a woman will date lots of men for long periods of time and up until the wedding date. That’s not exactly fair to what Rori teaches but might (I have no idea) be how some women do it. In reality, the woman is keeping her vibe open, having fun, meeting new people (including men) and refusing to let a guy believe he’s got her for the rest of his life no matter what…until he actually asks for that…oh…and sets a date – none of this “will you marry me someday” and then stay “engaged” for several years. Marriage isn’t a reality until the date is set and the flowers are bought…and even then, there’s the backout clause. LOL
As far as sex, for me, I was always sexually exclusive. This is what Rori suggests as well but some women are comfortable with multiple sex partners. I thought that was taking it way too far. In talking with my guy, he did tell me that as much as he hated my dating, had I slept with one of those men, I probably would have never seen him again. He said he was mostly angry at himself that he was not doing what he needed to do to keep me from seeing other men. He would have been shattered had I slept with someone else.
Soooo…guess I wasn’t done with the topic huh? LOL
Venus says
I believe that a woman with a healthy sense of self esteem, self worth and integrity will dump a guy who has persistent doubts about her rather than engage in what appears to be manipulative gameplaying of CD. Why exactly would you want to be with such a person anyway. Either of you. Makes me wonder what happens after the wedding when his doubts of whether he chose “the right one” persists. Whether there is some underlying resentment on his part for being “played” into a position that he was uncertain of. I would dump the guy and start looking for someone who KNOWS how he feels about me without being gamed, pressured or manipulated into taking a position.
To be clear, I totally agree that a woman should have a life outside of her significant other. I just don’t think this should include dating other guys if you are exclusive.
Maeve says
@Mercedes:
”
I don’t know how to explain it except to say we all know that twinge of insecurity when our man pulls away even the slightest bit. Like he isn’t being as affectionate as he used to be or he’s off on his own train of thought and not listening to us as intently or he’s spending a ton of time playing video games, etc. Our crazy voices can get us all messed up and wondering “what’s wrong” and “what did I do” and “I must not be good enough” and “is he cheating on me” and “I know I’ve gained weight but…” and “oh God I need to call my sister!!!!”, etc.
“When those voices pop up, if we are already in the habit of and comfortable with the concept of circular dating, then instead of listening to the negatives or getting anxious over the “what-ifs”, we can instead lose our insecurities by getting out there and flirting, having fun, meeting people, making eye contact and smiling and enjoying a conversation with some random guy and remembering (because of his reaction) that we STILL got it so whatever is going on in the husband’s mind right now, it’s his stuff and not something we need to worry about. It helps us do what we KNOW we’re supposed to do…and that is give him time to go through his funk and not pressure him to talk about his feelings to us (even though, as women, we REALLY want to talk about his feelings).”
I can honestly say that this has never, ever, ever happened to me.
If a guy pulls back–be he date, boyfriend or husband–first response: “Huh. He must be distracted by something at work/school/with his family.” If he stays pulled back, I ask him what’s up. If he talks about it, cool. If he doesn’t and it perpetuates, then I start to wonder if we have a trust issue. Regardless, it has lots of time to work itself out, and if it doesn’t work itself out and the behaviour is something I can’t tolerate–not just distance or ‘space’ but meanness or callousness–the relationship is dying, and I end it.
There’s nothing wrong with distance in a relationship, per se. Everyone needs their own hobbies, time, friends, including video games, so long as they’re doing their share around the house and with the bills, I really don’t care. I can’t imagine being in a relationship with someone and having them withdraw a bit and automatically assuming there’s something wrong with me.
So from the first, I don’t need to get out there and rid myself of those insecurities. Because they’re not there.
But more importantly, there must be at least 500 different ways of dealing with insecurities other than papering them over with attention from other men. Be a rock star at work. Write a novel. Run a marathon. Use that time and distance you’ve suddenly got in your relationship to actually accomplish something that doesn’t rest on the validation you receive from other men (I guarantee you, someday you’ll be old enough that it won’t matter, you’ll be invisible to most men).
Also, this ‘women like to talk about feelings and men don’t’ thing–it’s so tiresome, and such bs. Can’t we just drop it already? In my experience men like to talk about their feelings just as much as women do, if they’re with a woman they can talk to–and I’ve even read studies that show that men in relationships who don’t talk about their feelings aren’t disinterested, they’ve just learned to shut up. I think it does a disservice to men to act as if all men will never have the fluency or facility with feeling that women do.
Pokadots says
What I have a problem with in the Rori way of CDing…and I could be inaccurate but I don’t believe I am as I have come across this on her blog, is that CDing should be like a full time job. The process goes where if we decide to CD then that is first priority, we accept every date and even if we have a program to go out with a friend or girlfriend that should be cancelled in order to accept the date. Yet you hear many other coaches like Mirabelle Summers, Amy Waterman, Christian Carter and so and so forth telling you not to do that. That if you have previous engagements with friends you do not cancel them to go out on a date as that is actually acting out of integrity, and that dating should not be like a job but an opportunity to practice (Rori says this too) to connect with another person beyond a friend level. Yet at the same time Rori also says (and she’s not unique in this as many other coaches say similar things, so this is not a complaint) not to drop everything to pick up his call, don’t call him first and don’t change your plans…so I always got very confused in terms of her concept of CDing. In fact, many of RR’s concepts feel very confusing to me, to be quite frank.
Karl R says
Mercedes said: (#93)
“She most likely doesn’t date other men up until the marriage. She stays open, flirts and circular dates herself”
Are you okay with your boyfriend flirting with other women?
In previous threads, a significant portion of the women on this blog believe that it’s inappropriate for a boyfriend/husband to flirt with someone other than his girlfriend/wife. Other women expect their boyfriend/husband to flirt with other women, because they flirt with other men. My fiancée and I fit into the second category, and neither of us is bothered by it. Flirting with others isn’t a problem, as long as the woman is comfortable with her boyfriend doing the exact same thing.
But I can’t see a relationship succeeding if it’s only acceptable for one partner to flirt with others (regardless of which partner is flirting).
Mercedes said: (#83)
“When I met a new guy, I told him how I felt about being exclusive. […] I would say I’m not looking for an exclusive relationship right and that I’m dating lots of men and that someday I hoped to find The One”
I realize that J gave you “total commitment,” but I’m not sure what you mean by that. Did he tell you that he wished to date exclusively? Or did you keep dating until he did something more than that?
When I told a woman that I was interested in dating exclusively, and she declined (in order to continue dating others), then I had already gotten my answer to whether she was a potential long-term partner. I sometimes continued to date her non-exclusively, but I was looking elsewhere for an exclusive relationship.
For most people, dating exclusively is one of the steps towards getting married. Personally, I wouldn’t consider a greater commitment until a woman was willing to date exclusively.
Mercedes said: (#83)
“he would fill up my evenings and weekends so that there wasn’t time to be with others.”
Given my work schedule and other commitments, I can’t fill up someone’s time to that degree. I live with my fiancée, and she could find time for a few dates per week without me ever noticing.
Mercedes said: (#93)
“refusing to let a guy believe he’s got her for the rest of his life no matter what…until he actually asks for that…oh…and sets a date”
Again, I’m a bit unclear as to what you mean by this.
By the time my fiancée and I had dated six months, we felt it reasonbly likely that we’d end up getting married. At that point (and even now) it would be possible for me to lose her, but only if I acted in an unacceptable manner … and similarly, she could lose me if she acted in that manner.
Both of us were upfront with where we stood, and I don’t see how either of us would have benefitted by trying to cultivate uncertainty within the other person.
Mercedes said: (#93)
“Want them to reach out to you? Don’t reach out to them. Want a person to lean toward you? Lean away from them. Happens probably 90% of the time.”
Really? I must be in the other 10%. And I’m not sure how you connect with another person if you can’t move towards each other simultaneously.
Why would a guy allow himself to become emotionally invested if the woman is giving signals that she’s keeping him away?
Early in our relationship, my fiancée openly demonstrated that she was keeping some distance. There’s only one reason I didn’t move on during those months … the sex was good, and I was enjoying our fling.
Because of that, she ended up falling in love before I did. Since she was outwardly maintaining some distance, I maintained some emotional separation. On the other hand, I wasn’t being outwardly distant, so it felt safe for her to emotionally connect.
During the first couple months, I considered dating another woman (since my fiancée didn’t appear to be in it for the long haul). I primarily held back because I didn’t want to sabotage my chances with the other woman. I didn’t think the other woman would be too understanding if I started a romance with her while having regular sex with someone else.
And if you avoid reaching out in order to get a man to reach out to you, how is he supposed to see a difference between you and the women who are truly disinterested in him?
Mercedes says
I think I misspoke because I’m not sure how I managed to communicate “closed off” instead of “leaned back” with an open and accepting vibe. Really sorry for the difficulty in finding the right words here.
I’m very, very happy for those of you who have it all together. Very, very VERY happy for the ones in love and secure (because I know how awesome it feels) and sending AWESOME vibes out to those of you who are waiting for love to come your way.
Wishing you all the very BEST of everything…no matter how dating looks or feels for you. We’ll all approach it differently and most likely, we’ll all have love in our arms. That alone makes me smile. 🙂
M
Mercedes says
One last thing though…circular dating and leaning back yet staying open aren’t games and aren’t tricking or manipulating. Honesty about where you stand and why are KEYS to making to work. So is, not cheating, but instead, not being exclusive (except sexually) with men who aren’t ready to move forward. Once they’re ready, if you’re in love, I say go for it!
With passion! 🙂
helene says
If a woman falls in love with a man, she completely loses interest in all other men at that point. That’s what happens to a woman when she falls in love.It is unimaginable to me to date more than one man beyond the extremely early stages of dating (ie. the first few weeks.) If I don’t fall for the guy, sure, I might be interested in dating others…. but that would be a sign to me to stop dating the first guy! If I am seriously interested in a guy, how can I possibly DATE other men? What do I have to offer them? What possible interest can I display in them or their plans for us? What genuine connection can I offer guys 2 and 3 when guy 1 has my heart??!
The second point relates to sex – what is this weird american notion of “dating” without sex? That’s not dating, thats being friends. A date is a sexual encounter, at some level or another. In the early stages there may not be full sex but there will be glances, touches and flirting.. then kissing… All dating relationships are essentially sexual or they are not dating as such, they are “male friends I go to the movies with.”
Karl R says
helene asked: (#100)
“what is this weird american notion of ‘dating’ without sex?”
I don’t consider glances, flirting, touching, kissing or even heavy petting to be sex. If none of those were present, I wouldn’t consider it to be a date either. I would say that I went to ____ with a friend.
I think you’re using a much broader definition of “sex” than us.
sassysophia says
Hi everyone – I receive Rori’s newsletter but do not know much about Marc – sorry Marc. The way I understood Rori’s circular dating made perfect sense to me. This is how I took her to mean it though – .
So say I decided to start dating again. I would from the very beginning, date no less than three men at a time to: keep options open, to find out who is long haul material, and not place myself in a vulnerable position of getting attached to Mr. Emotionally Unvailable and his useless friends. All fine with me so far.
Now if I end up really liking one man why should I stop dating the other two? Or not adding different two or three men. Let’s say guy 1 says, “Will you be my girlfriend?” I think Rori would advise that I say, “I’m not looking to be some one’s girlfriend. I’m looking to get married.” And then I keep dating him and the others wth his knowledge of course. And he is free to do the same BUT NO SEX OR SLEEP OVERS OR SHACKING UP with any of them. It is really a smart strategy as you get to know each other and really see if you are compatible without the woman being placed in an insecure position of giving up her body, time, love, energy, to a man who is not offering her a REAL future or marriage.
I understand in our modern era that seems wrong. A woman is supposed to want to be a girlfriend as there is an assumption it leads to commitment and wife, HUGE ASSUMPTION that ends up putting the woman at risk.
Women have been lied to to give up sex, her time, her heart, cause some guy says he loves her. Women how many out there have believed a guy when he says he loves you, wants to get married, he thinks you”wonderful” with big cow eyes and puppy dog tail? Any hands …thousands! Are you married? No to him? No.
And they, including myself, are still single! I have also found a guy saying he loves means nothing anymore. He has to say he’s “in love with you.” Telling the woman I love you is to convince her give sex and there is a possibility of something more concrete, later, at some distant time, when he thinks he might be ready, even if it’s really ten years away, and looks nothing like the woman he’s with, and dogs can vote.
In the old days a woman dated others right up until she was engaged. I watched a BBC movie last night where a woman was proposed to by three men she had been courting (no sex)
I don’t believe in modern love: shacking up, playing house, sex before engagement with a ring, a date, and invites being written. Most men, I feel take advantage of free sex. Men don’t value women who will shack up with them…take a poll. Scientific research says living together no more brings you to marriage than just dating. And MARC I understand is talking about “the good guy” Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label. How many times has a guy pretended to be a good guy to get his way, string some one along, etc etc. Most women don’t have broke hearts from bad guys but men who pretended to be good guys but were really bad.
The good guy doesn’t expect to shack up. The good guy I think wants his woman to be his woman and marry her (if that is what you both have said you want) A good guy doesn’t have children with you and NOT marry you (Matthew McConnehey you have a call at the front desk) types. The only way a woman will truly know is if he gives her a ring and makes it legitimate! And I think that is Rori’s point.
Say I was with a man who won’t commit, I haven’t been twiddling my thumb waiting for him. And why should I? He is also free to be dating.
And if I made the mistake of living with him I would say: “Hey Bob, you’re a good guy, I’ve enjoyed our time together and I’m ready to get married. I understand you may not be and it’s your choice which I will respect. However I need to know (ea. woman will feel diff.) in one week, one month, where you stand on this.” Don’t listen to his sorry exuses. It is a yes or no answer. Please marry me or I’m sorry you’re not the one. And each person gets to go on and find who is better for them AND SHE’S NOT SITTING AROUND and WAITING. I think she should get back out dating. It gives the man too much power and it’s very hurtful to the woman’s esteem all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.
That is what all this is about WOMEN CAN’T NOR SHOULD WAIT AROUND for men to decide if they feel like getting married when they’ve been getting, love, comfort, sex, laundry done (if she doesn’t know any better) the pretense of a couple. Ladies if we all agreed to this that a man can’t have sex, we aren’t exclusive, or we don’t stop dating others until there is a ring, wedding date, and invites sent out, you can BET MEN WOULD STEP IN LINE!
And if he chooses some one else, you aren’t bonded sexually, you haven’t built your life around him, or as emotionally at risk, and still own yourself and self – respect and not waiting for this fantasy relationship to turn into something real.
Now that would be sexual/relationship revolution.
I think modern love is very destructive to the female psyche!
Evan Marc Katz says
@SassySophia
a) I won’t even bother to rebut anything you said. Your post speaks for itself.
b) My name is Evan. Says it at the top of the page.
EE says
There are two understandings of CD in this thread. One is about “dating the world” which means having a full life whether you are in a relationship or not. That could include dating more than one man but does not have to. Different levels of intimacy with multiple dating partners might work for some, but depends on the people involved. For me more than casual dating maybe with some kissing, would not work. Intense intimacy has a way of clouding other judgement and pre-occupying the mind.
The challenge of moving from dating the world into an LTR between two emotionally healthy adults is recovering from the early headrush that causes you to neglect parts of your life for a while, while remaining close. This is about being a whole person with or without a partner and makes complete sense.
The other understanding of CD in this thread is whether to use jealousy and insecurity as tools to manipulate the responses of dating partners. This is about getting someone to make a commitment based on fear and dependency on “needing” another person. That is uncertain and shaky ground on which to build a strong LTR.
Keep clear which kind of CD each post is talking about and this thread is easier to understand.
Lily T. says
“Do women set goals for relationships? If you do, how successful have you been with it? I’d like to know, because if it works for you I think it would be great to share it with other women who may want to try it.”
Here’s another point of view.
http://anonymousmale1.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/why-women-should-set-goals-for-relationships/
Jadafisk says
sassysophia – women are different, though. They want different things at different times from different people. An 18 year old pre-med student doesn’t want to get married and have a baby within the next 3 years. She may not even have enough time for a boyfriend. She probably wants to date and have sex, however. And if this type of Lysistrata scenario occurred, you best believe that men who DO NOT need to be married or in relationships would step in that line and destroy the lives of whoever was unfortunate enough to pull their card, like they used to. They’d shuck and jive long enough to acquire the commitment, then act out. A world where permanent bachelor types are allowed to get the amount of sex they want from the women who want to give it to them (they do exist, it isn’t just all male schemers and female dupes) without making false promises about commitment and/or wrecking any homes is best for everyone.
Karl R says
sassysophia said: (#102)
“all the while he totally benefits from her sex, love, nuturing for FREE.“
When my fiancée and I have sex, she feels that she has received the same benefit that I do. (And she felt the same way back when we started out just having a fling.) When we provide emotional support to each other, she feels that we receive equal benefit from the nurture. She feels that we benefit equally from our mutual love.
Take a minute to consider the radical difference between her viewpoint and yours.
To you, the man has received three benefits for free. To my fiancée, she has reciprocated the same benefits she has received. That difference has profound implications to the entire nature of the relationship.
sassysophia said: (#102)
“Well who is that good guy or good guys? He doesn’t come with a label.”
You’re having difficulty finding the good men, because they’re deliberately avoiding you. I mean that seriously.
It seems very important to you that a man recognizes your value and the value of your contributions to a relationship. The good men (the ones who recognize your inherent value) will quickly realize that you have completely devalued their contributions to the physical and emotional intimacy of the relationship.
Would you tolerate that attitude in a man?
Do you expect that good men would be any more tolerant of that attitude?
Pokadots says
I completely agree with Karl’s post to sassysophia. The whole post gave me the heebejeebies. The entire point of view about dating is all to “keep men in line” and giving her the ring in order to show legitimacy and getting the man to value you is so dinosaur and not workable. The whole point of being in a relationship is to grow and give and take your best. It can be the most wonderful thing if YOU have the right mindset. Marriage nor a ring is a garauntee that he “values” you or even loves you or is IN love with you. The whole point of coaches like Evan, Christian Carter, Mirabelle Summers and Marie Forleo is to gain an emotional strength, endurance, and fitness so that you bring that to the relationship table. What you bring is just as important as what you will get. Those who are flabby emotionally have no business being in a relationship period. It jars me that there are still so many women who date simply to get their exterior needs me rather than to find real true love. And true love is not about getting something from the other person regardless of what it is. I can’t help but feel like telling women to grow the H up and get over yourselves.
AB says
When I first read about CDing just as your readers here , I felt shocked and thought it was weird . But that was before I really learned what Rori was saying.
Circular Dating is not something a happy contented woman in a great relationship would want to do , nor would Rori advise it.Except to “date herself” perhaps …
However a women , for example, in her late 30’s who wants marriage and kids and is being offered longstanding girlfriend status instead , even by a good man, needs to think about exercising her options. This has nothing to do with making the guy dance to her tune. This is about her going for what she wants and needs in her life. She has every right to seek happiness , and whatever her time line, she has a right to honour that , just as the man does.
She can stay put , she can walk away (and he may be a really good man!) or she can take the third option of not chucking out the whole relationship , but to allow him extra time to decide about the next 35 years while being true to her own feelings of fear and frustration and taking action to feel better.
CD’ing is not about multiple sex partners nor about recruiting “competition” to spur him on. CDing is an ATTITUDE of mind where she moves from frustration and fear and unmet needs, to opening up her options and taking responsibility for herself. This must be open , honest and NON manipulative. CDing GIVES him all the time he needs to decide .
She has to be prepared to lose him.
She has to be prepared to meet someone else who IS ready.
This scenario is actually not the main use of circular dating, as I see it .It is mostly used as a way of meeting and getting to know men without pressuring them to create an “instant” relationship. When a girl is CDing this allows a man to know that she is NOT pinning her dreams on him, she does not have him in her sights , and she really and honestly is just looking for the best man for her .
It totally stops all that pressure on early relationships to be Going Somewhere. It also allows a girl to wait for sex as the men understand she is not exclusive and therefore not ready to sleep with them .If the man decides to go further and step up his interest and she accepts him she can then decide with him when to become exclusive and sexual .
I am currently CDing 3 great guys. They all know I see men friends. There is no sex as i am not exclusive with anyone. ALL of them expressed to me they did not want to rush into a relationship . ALL of them are really enjoying the dates and NON PRESSURE that I offer. Apparently its a very different feeling than being “hunted down like a deer in the headlights” according to tonights date.Another told me it was great not to have to worry about how fast to “move on me” as sex was not on the immediate menu. These guys LIKE CDing !!! My only problem is that I like them all and will miss the company of the ones I dont settle with . This is NOT Avoidant attachment style as someone kindly offered above.
This is plain good sense .I get to know the men without stepping into the age old womans trap of spinning a relationship in my head , then supergluing myself into it with sexual hormones.
Whats not to like ?
Twilight Princess says
SassySophia… phew! Rori suggests saying that one line? “I’m not looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married?” Really? So on a normal dating time scale where this question happens of being exclusive, you expect them to ask you to marry them? I kind of wish I could be around someone that actually squeezes that winning line out. I just can’t fathom why anyone would think this is a good idea. It’s mind boggling. You’re being exclusive with a man, just not making it an issue with the law. Why is the boyfriend/girlfriend stage so hard? I’m also kind of curious where sex fits into this CDing theory. If you’re not being exclusive with these men until they ask you for marriage(which… obviously it hasn’t worked for the women above because they’re still dating) when do you have sex? Are you willing to have sex with someone you tell you don’t want to be exclusive with? Or if you do, that could potentially mean that you’re having sex with multiple people. I’m not going to judge you or anyone else for that, but that may have less than favorable consequences. Or do you wait until one of them agrees? Maybe I’m old fashioned(which is weird because I’m 90% sure I’m younger than most of the posters here, not to be rude.), but I prefer the boyfriend/girlfriend stage and then the guy asking for marriage if/when he wants(on a reasonable time scale… not 3 months). Wouldn’t you rather have the option of just breaking up instead of getting a divorce if things go wrong, and there is a good chance they will because you’re rushing getting to know someone. That means you probably don’t know them as well as you should before you make a lifelong commitment. Also, on an emotional level, don’t you feel somewhat detached from someone you refuse to be exclusive with? Obviously not entirely, but considering you’re investing yourself into a few other men that you probably developed interest in, wouldn’t that ruin the whole marriage proposal because you may be torn between which one you like? I don’t actually expect answers to all of these questions, these are all major problems I would have with CDing. I could probably find the answers on her web page that I visited for all of 5 minutes. It doesn’t interest me enough to go there though. Not trying to be rude, but it’s true.
AB- if a guy states that he isn’t ready to rush into a relationship what makes you think he would want to skip the boyfriend/girlfriend stage before marriage? Key phrase- “I don’t want to rush”
But please tell us how they respond.
I would really like to know how the men respond to the “I’m not really looking to be someone’s girlfriend… I’m looking to be married.” In 3 months you should know what their intentions are as far as longevity is concerned. You, like everyone else, just need to learn to be patient! 🙂
AB says
re 110 ..with respect , who said I wanted marriage?
This is not about marriage, its about having the form of relationship YOU WANT. As Roris web page is titled in fact , “Have the Relationship You Want”.
I wish you had several hours to read the many excellent posts she has made on this subject, as 5 minutes cannot convey it clearly.
Its about not having the connection you DONT want. Its about building self esteem , stopping obsessional thinking, over functioning and counteracting oxytocin bonding and habituation (hormonal addiction) to Mr Wrong .Its about making sure you find a man who wants what you want . Its about choosing to have what you choose to have, not what is reluctantly given .
Patience? Like I said I have all the time in the world , and my dates have as much time as they need.I dont feel frustrated and I am not waiting on someone else to “want ” me enough to be committed ..wow its so liberating (I am open to a committed forever relationship to see me into middle age and beyond- marriage is optional) I actually have a serious man courting me who I was once in relationship with many years ago. He knows what he wants with me. He loves that I am taking my time. I am still deciding as the other two also have a lot to offer .I reiterate that these men know and LIKE the fact there is NO PRESSURE on them to come up with a relationship of any type. As I am not sleeping with them I actually am getting to know them before supergluing my heart to anyone.
I have been successfully married and my husband also knew what he wanted and acted fast to offer marriage. I agreed to a 12 month engagement to be sure of our feelings. At this time I was automatically CDing but didnt know what it was called back then. I just did what my mother and grandmother did , it worked .
Rori teaches that I am a prize , and yep , she is right!! I am no longer someones default position.
I respect Evans excellent discussion about how to understand how a man thinks , and his time line, and i agree this operates for a lot of guys exactly as he says. I agree that some men wouldnt like it if their girlfriend decides she is not getting what SHE wants and wants to meet other people . But both parties have a right to have their needs met . And I dont want to think like a man .
I dont want a man who doesnt know what he wants with me after a reasonable period .This is not 3 months . Please read Roris stuff before making it up. There is no time mentioned She states that it takes 3-6 months of regular dating to begin to know each other, to even know if you are suited. Why cut yourself off from other men during this time? You and your man are entitled to take ALL THE TIME YOU NEED to decide what you want with each other.
I find older guys know exactly what they want and will have the life experience and courage to go for the woman that offers independence , intimacy and total openness about her feelings , just as Rori suggests. There is no need for excuses and delay tactics . To quote CD guy, ” I cant leave you on the market for too long you are sure to be snapped up !” Ok , I am 51, menopausal with health issues :):):)
It sure works for me!
Annie says
Oh Geez!! I just read Rori’s advice. It was painful, and didn’t even make much sense.
How do men put up with this? It’s babble…plain and simple. I’ve spent way to much time around men perhaps, I don’t get this at all.
The big blind spot for women, is sex. They keep having it, keep getting hurt and keep “giving it” as though it’s something they give to a man to get his affection.
And men keep saying, until we get sex, we don’t even feel like we are dating, so women have sex, get hurt…get used and then blame themselves and get themselves into this ridiculous overly emotional state, where they are completely irrational.
Ladies. Stop having sex and date. Then you can keep a clear head. Best dating advice ever. 🙂
Laine says
Sassysophia at 102.You have a hidden agenda. I met a guy a long time ago, we just dated each other and were honest about that. We fell in love, married 9 months later, married 18 years, 3 beautiful children. So it does happen. But not when you have a hidden agenda!
southrnphoenix says
First, I will admit I have not yet read the comments, but I just had to say one thing: after a man agreed to be exclusive with me, even though there has been no proposal, if I found out he was seeing other women, I would drop him like a hot rock. Really, how could I ever expect my boyfriend to be cool with me dating other men if I wouldn’t be cool with him doing the same? That has to be the biggest double standard I have ever heard of.
kenley says
I understand early on that a woman may want to date multiple guys to help her avoid obsessing with one. My issue is a practical one. Currently, I am dating two guys and between work and other parts of my social life, I am having a hard time juggling two men. I can’t imagine dating three or four. As much as Rori says it’s important to have a full rich life that involving friends, family, and other passions, if you are dating three to four men, I’m just certain how one fits ALL that in.
I guess at the end of the day, people ultimately have to do what feels right to them.
Lydia says
GREAT article! I found you through Rori’s blog. CD does have it’s place, I guess, but my guy demanded exclusivity after just a few weeks, even though he wasn’t commiting to a long term relationship. EVERYTHING you said makes sense to me.
SMC says
I discovered Rori’s website after becoming single when I ended my 23 yr long marriage and entered the dating pool for the first time since high school. That was 3 years ago. Her blog was boggling to me but I tried to adapt to some of the concepts. I knew I needed to be single for a while and not jump into another relationship right away. I wasn’t even looking for a relationship but the VERY FIRST guy that I said yes to go to dinner, ended up becoming boyfriend many months later. However, he didn’t want to be rebound guy so he encouraged me to go out with other people (circular dating) but this was in the very beginning of our relationship, both of us not knowing where it was going to lead us. So, as I spend the next year just exploring the world around me, meeting people, going out with people, more importantly, making friends, he and I keep growing closer and closer while we’re just dating. But then a time comes where you draw the line and cross over from dating to being boyfriend/girlfriend and that circular dating isn’t appropriate anymore.
During that time, I was disturbed that Rori’s blog said that it was okay for me to CD but that he couldn’t. Such a double standard!!
In my personal experience, the CD thing is great when you are truly single. Yes, you need to try different people out and see what suits you best. But once you start going forward with one of them, you can’t keep on CD’ing while giving him a threat that until there’s a ring on the finger, I can do what I want! I tried that for a while and all that did was drive a perfectly good match farther away. I honestly believe that if I hadn’t tried the CD concept, we would have accelerated our relationship instead of creating set-backs. Now, 3 yrs later, I have some experiences and baggage that would have been better off left alone. I now have to deal with the emotional connection to my CD actions as well as deal with the fall out of those who I CD’d with, some of home hoped to win me over and created problems for me as I tried to let go of those people. We are dealing with real people with feelings and emotions and we can’t just run around and treat people like they are a objects that we can use. It is just very selfish.
And I’m happy to say that almost everything that Evan wrote in this article is unfolding in my life with my boyfriend. He’s telling me that he wants to be married but that he needs TIME to be sure and that he doesn’t want to make a mistake. And that if I had kept CD’ing, for sure that would have ended our relationship since I wasn’t alloting him the time he needs. I am NOT in a hurry to be married anyway!
I think its sad that Rori would take a concept and try to adapt it to all situations. It might work for one but it won’t work for ALL situations.
Joe says
Sounds to me like the whole hullabaloo is a misunderstanding over the name “Circular Dating.” Rori has co-opted the word “dating” for parts of her system that are not actually dating. Non-readers of her blog call it “having a life” and don’t even remotely relate it to dating.
LC says
The problem with “committing” to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married, and many men will string a woman along for as long as possible before marrying her. So it’s important for a woman NOT to get serious or commit to someone who’s not committed to her. People sleep around so much these days, and dating should be getting to know the man so that you know that you’re compatible. Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted. A good man with good intentions would never treat a woman like that and take her for granted, but there aren’t that many good men or women around these days or Rori wouldn’t have a job. Plus, our grandmothers/mothers NEVER went steady with any guy. I was warned many times to never cut off all of my options, never to be a guy’s girlfriend for more than a year, or to put all of my eggs in one basket. My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her. They were married for 50 years and had 5 kids. I even had a guy I was dating tell me about a model he used to date in China, and that she’d have another guy pick her up to take her out right after he’d dropped her off for a date. He said he was intrigued b/c she was such a challenge. So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.
Karl R says
LC said: (#119)
“My grandmother went out with every man who asked her until my grandad came up with a ring and married her.”
“So I think men deserve your fidelity when they marry you, and other than that, I’ll do what I want.”
Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable for your fiancée to have sex with another woman the day before he married you? Are you saying that you’d find it acceptable if your boyfriend had sex with another woman the day before he proposed?
If any person (man or woman) can’t manage an exclusive, monogamous relationship for a few months of dating, then it’s a strong indicator that person won’t be able to manage fidelity through decades of marriage. I wouldn’t waste my time with that person.
LC said: (#119)
“Most women lock down immediately with a guy, and that’s when she gets trapped and taken for granted.”
How does that make her “trapped”? She can choose to leave any time she chooses. The only thing holding a woman in the relationship is her decision to not leave. If he strings her along or takes her for granted, she can decide to leave. Where’s the trap?
LC said: (#119)
“The problem with ‘committing’ to a man that you’re dating is that he’s now in control of when or if you get married,”
The woman can decide to not get married. She can decide that she doesn’t want to get married right now. Those are the same two decisions that the man is able to make.
Both people have the ability to say “No,” or “Not now.” I fail to see how you can rationally claim that gives the man more control than the woman. (Though in all fairness, I’ve heard men make the same claims about women being in control when both sides have equal power.)
If you look at a situation like where you and a man have equal control, but you see it as a situation where the man has all the control, then it becomes a situation where he has the control … because you can’t use power that you’re unaware that you have.
If you want to come across as a strong and independent woman, then you’re going to have to recognize when you have equal control of a situation.
SS says
Unfortunately I side with Evan’s, all the points, way to go man!!
I just can’t imagine how xxcked up men who are dating women under Rori’s principles. We are all pretty confused already and it got more confusing with CDing. In general women put too much hope whenever they have great connection with men. A great conversation is just a great convesation, doesn’t mean the guy has to be the BF, let alone the hubby. Just keep enjoying the conversation/the flirts, go back to your (already happy) life, and one day the guy who has THE gut will truly tell what he feels and hopefully his goals without all the pressure. I totally agree, not all women is needy about getting married. Rori is exploiting the opposite to the point where CDing would just “xxck up people mind” (quote from “General Daughter” movie).
Laura says
I think a lot of folks are automatically assuming dating means having sex. It may be true for some, but not all of us. CDing has its place and I did CD through spring and summer after my man took my hand and told me he and his xgf were going to get back together.
Our good-bye kiss lasted 3 hours through a wild thunderstorm, all the way to sunshine and rainbows and eagles soaring on the updrafts and finished with, “See ya Monday.” I assured him I wasn’t making out with anyone else and I would continue to do without sex until he made up his mind between xgf and me. I never brought her up again. She’s totally yesterday’s mashed potatoes!
It was fun, but I didn’t lead any men on. I was upfront that I don’t put out. I got lots of good hugs! Only 1 kissed me, then immediately tried to bed me. Ick. One of them I was seeing is a lifelong friend of my man’s and a good friend of mine. I’m sure he was keeping tabs on me, asking questions my man would never ask himself! He has faded back into the woods now my man has put the xgf behind him and stepped up as my man.
CDing was a great way to not be stuck on a man who possibly wasn’t mine to have.
But to do CDing to the level RR suggests? No freakin’ way! Invite them to my home? I don’t have casual men in my home or go to their homes. I don’t do casual sex or put myself in unsafe situations. Keep CDing until I have a ring or license? Evan is right, where’s the trust and how do you build it while dating around? My man trusted me not to go screwing around while he made up his mind, Kinda sorta. That’s why one of my dates was a mutual friend? lol
CDing became ICK! My man and I love each other, we trust each other. There is no value in rattling his cage with CDing!
Shoving these other men off my platter is not enjoyable. Continuing to date them is not enjoyable. Yes, some of us women did find time to date 4-6 men, but there was no emotional investment beyond having fun and exploring friendship. Some were already friends and will continue to be friends. But some had hope for a real relationship and no man like to be shoved into Oprah Guy Friend status.
I have 1 last guy to dump, my DD’s bf’s dad. We’ve been doing “Family Dates.” I love his kids. My man knows about this and is glad DD has a nice boyfriend, but it’s time to take her training wheels off.
LF says
Wow!!! THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you on this one!! I really needed to hear this because I have Rori’ Rayes programs on CD and I’m really trying to abide by them but all the way up to the ring seemed, instinctively wrong to me, lack of trust (in my opinion), so I am happy to see a guy’s perspective because now I don’t have to feel bad if I don’t want to apply her principles exactly..which I actually knew was okay but it is nice reassurance I suppose!
I am not sure I agree with the no boyfriend thing either..I agree you need to be careful but if the guy asks you for this.. and he is sincere..why not? like you said, it doesnt mean you have to stop “looking” and you can always dump him later if it doesnt work out.
GingerSky says
As a follower of Rori’s work and one who’s greatly enjoying the honest communication with Evan’s post, comments on Rori’s page, and all this discussion, I have to say I see some pertinent points to be brought out. Evan, your sharings are greatly valued by me. And Rori is just doing something different.
CDing is not to be suddenly invoked “in a moment of insecurity” with an established boyfriend in a thriving and relatively healthy secure and complete relationship, as I understand it. I agree, that is very hurtful! Rori just sees “girfriending” and “marrying” as two different, usually mutually exclusive tracks (which I agree with in most every case)… and she is trying to reestablish the old fashioned kind of courtship in which no man was *ever* able to consider a woman his own until they were seriously engaged.
Given this difference in approach and outlook, I have often wondered why Rori brings in thoughts from other coaches who hold to the girlfriend track as being valid (who all seem to be men?), since these are in such conflict really. But I guess she just wants to include any and every good viewpoint and input, and rightly so.
So… if you are already a girlfriend of a devoted, wonderful, honest and human man, then I agree that suddenly CDing is *not* a cool thing to engage. Speaking to your insecurity about whether you will marry is fair though. but it seems that almost all the time, if a girlfriend does this she is guilty of scaring the poor man. It is a one-sided proposition (which is how some women saw your description of your relationship with your wife, Evan, no blame, it just wouldn’t be everyone’s bag to have this kind of arrangement or dynamic… although your points are well-taken and very caring, helpful and honest imo). I have been counseling with a couple here in which the man has the same dynamic you do, but his present wife cannot handle it, whereas his former wife (now deceased) was fine with it. Because of this difference, they are both now having to work through old childhood issues of insecurity and maturity that they never would have otherwise worked through. And he is seriously changing his ways as far as how he talks with other women at parties, and how he interacts with them in his body- and energy-work and teaching/counseling practices. She is learning to trust that he really does love her, even though he has been serioulsy distracted by other women a lot.
The present way of society has never been known in any familiar time of history as far as we know, how men can now claim a woman as their own with *no commitment*, no husband-ness, no responsibility, and no chance for the woman to honestly express her desire or need or fear about that — without labelling her openly as a mistress, friend with benefits, prostitute, work-help, patron, moral-support, concubine or other defined role, so she can choose or dis-choose consciously! In my opinion Rori is right (and I have dated a TON in my life and had several serious relationships and been married once now at age 49). The girlfriend track amounts to an ongoing state of the man saying “we’re single & I’m pretty much free, but you’re basically my mistress” relationship. I know marriage is scary, esp for men, and dating is how to find out if you want to marry… but it seems women are always having to cater to a man’s childlike insecurities as his mother would without ever being able to speak to our own without being seen as undesireable and threatening, tedious, troublesome. So who gets to have space for their humanity in the relationship… ? Seems it’s either the man wanting to be free, or the woman wanting commitment, but seldom both.
I think it’s best to always CD, so that any relationship you enter has already been based on that fact (if you are interested in one take from the Christian faith, albeit a youth-targeted one, see Joshua Harris’s books… he also says a man has no right to consider a woman his own until he’s prepared to place a ring on her finger). But if you’re in a relationship with a man who is wonderful, fine. Be faithful to and focused on it! If he is, however, taking you for granted, acting kind of half interested, seeming to use you no matter how you’ve tried to solve it, engagin other women (which does not work, as men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you… old fashioned as that is it’s totally true imo)… if he’s not really there emotionally, etc, then CDing is the answer — or atleast talking aobut the things that will come up if you tell him you intend to CD might bring an answer. It’s not about pushing, controlling or hurting a man — as Rori repeats with *great* frequency. It’s about clearing the decks in your life to see which man is serious & compatible rather than wasting your time if one is keeping you in the fridge as his “girl on tap.”
And it’s about ridding ourselves of that “girl on tap” vibe and energy, so we can becom the best we can be, and be good wife material… and be secure, giving, dependable and enjoyable wives and women for ourselves and all those we ove.
So if you’re the girlfriend of a great guy who is attentive, honest, monogamous, present and connected, and he is getting all those same things from you, then what’s the propblem? Don’t CD. But if you feel used, wasted, in pain and insecure, then talk about it with him and see what somes up from under the surface… and maybe seriously CD.
And remember, if you really read deeply/thoroughly in Rori’s materials and thoughts, CD-ing doesn’t ever have to mean dating other men… it also simply means focusing on the beauty and enjoyable delicious experiences around and in you (as I’m sure your wife does, Evan) so that you build yourself up and are not leaning all your energy, longing, need, self-esteem lack, emptiness and desire on one man so that he is stifled and crowded, and you’re left neurotic, scattered and holding the bag. It’s just a healthy way to relate to the world and deal with things as they are, not as you wish them to be.
Emily says
Amen! Wow, you hit the nail on the head and made some outstanding points! With all due respect to Evan as I 99 % of the time agree with his posts, I find that Evan is not understanding what CD is about, and how it works. I found your explanation of Rori’s principles spot on . I think that just because men are saying, ‘We want the benefits of an exclusive relationship ie boyfriend/girlfriend without true commitment because this is what WE want,’ does not mean that women have to agree to these terms. In my grandparent’s day, men courted women to marry not just to be boyfriend/girlfriend.. WHY?? because women set STANDARDS for men that they in turn had to follow in order to be in a loving relationship– and marriages by and large lasted a long time and were happier and healthier than in this ‘me centered’ generation.. Rori is trying to bring back these ‘old fashioned’ courtship principles to women, so that men realize that NO woman is theirs until they are ready to provide a true and lasting commitment. And until a woman gets this comittment , then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her. I think within the context of dating, if you are falling for someone and realize you are compatible with someone, you naturally become exclusive without having to verbalize that this is happening.. if a man is falling for a woman, he should realize though that she is not truly his unless he pops the question.. until then, he needs to prove himself to her and until he proves himself, then she should not close herself to the possibility of meeting other men.. if a man is truly falling in love with a woman, the thought of losing her would be unbearable I would think.. if he is ‘turned off’ by her dating other men UNTIL he makes up his mind on wanting to marry her, then I don’t think he truly wants to be with her, because he wouldn’t give up the fight to win over the woman so easily
Evan Marc Katz says
“And until a woman gets this comittment, then she should date until she finds a man that is willing to give this to her, however long it takes for her to feel comfortable, even if it means dating multiple men until one proves himself to her.”
Yeah, good luck with that.
Emily says
Why, Evan? Don’t you think if a woman said to a guy, I really care about you and enjoy spending time with you and want to see where this goes, but I can’t be exclusive unless I’m sure it’s truly going in the right direction, and until then, let’s get to know each other without pressure.. that would be a turn off? If you truly were compatible and meant for each other, why is the ‘boyfriend-girlfriend’ stage even necessary? Maybe I’m being totally naieve and idealistic here, but having been in unsatisfying boyfriend-girlfriend relationships I’m starting to wonder if committing to a man and giving him the benefits of marriage without true commitment is a stage that men say is necessary to ‘figure things out’.. well why can’t men figure it out while you are dating others (without sex being involved.. I know I opened up another can of worms with that)!
Evan Marc Katz says
I wrote a 7 page response as to how I feel. If you’re my girlfriend (not wife) and you’re seeing other people…you’re not my girlfriend. You’re cheating on me. All you have to do is flip the genders over to see what an untenable position you’re staking. If your boyfriend wanted to see other people, you’d think it was a dagger in the heart of your relationship. Yet if my girlfriend says that she should be allowed to see others until I put a ring on it, I’m supposed to FIGHT for her? Sorry, Emily. I know you want to believe in this. I know you care for Rori Raye. I think she’s a delightful, special, insightful human being. I just think she REALLY missed it on this one, and that if you pull this act on a devoted boyfriend of a year or two, you’re going to lose him really quickly.
Karl R says
GingerSky said: (#124)
“men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you…”
And men view women’s Circlular Dating the exact same way. She’s not wife material or she just doesn’t want me.
It’s that simple.
And no matter how long and convoluted your explanation (or Rori’s), the good, decent men aren’t going to accept it. Actions speak louder than bullshit.
Because I know I’m a decent guy. I know how I treat women. And when I want a commited relationship with a woman, I know that I don’t screw with her like that.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“men can now claim a woman as their own with *no commitment*,”
Bullshit.
If we are dating exclusively, than I have made the exact same commitment that I expect from you.
The only difference is I don’t try to claim that an equal commitment is somehow unfair to me.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“C[ircular] D[at]ing doesn’t ever have to mean dating other men…”
And Bill Clinton claimed that oral sex wasn’t actually sex.
If it had nothing to do with dating, then it would be called something else.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“Rori just sees ‘girfriending’ and ‘marrying’ as two different, usually mutually exclusive tracks (which I agree with in most every case)…”
Do you actually believe what you’re saying?
Girlfriending is different from marrying … except for the one time that the girlfriend eventually ends up becoming my wife.
It’s one track. Most girlfriends derail before the “marriage” point. And if you Circular Date, you’re derailing the relationship at that point.
GingerSky said: (#124)
“And it’s about ridding ourselves of that ‘girl on tap’ vibe and energy, so we can becom the best we can be, and be good wife material…”
Bullshit.
If a woman wants me to commit to her while she circular dates, then she’s not good wife material.
GingerSky,
If a man fed you this line of bullshit about why he wanted to circular date, would you believe it?
What makes you think men are more trusting (or gullible) than women?
Liza says
Six months isn’t a long time? Six months is an awful friggin long time if you want to be married. Remember ladies, we are the ones with the expiration date. If we want to have kids we have to do it by a certain time. Men can have kids when they’re 90 years old. They have different priorities and all the time in the world.
What Rori suggests is not ever getting in the boyfriend-girlfriend trap in the first place if we want to be married. It just caters to the men’s needs, not ours.
It is tricky once we’ve agreed on the exclusivity thing , but terms in a relationship are always negotiable. If things don’t seem to be progressing then you’ve got to change what you’re doing.
Men don’t like it, but competition makes them step up for us. The competition quotient has to be there or they have no incentive to take the leap into marriage. Evan here, is just expressing the (lazy) male point of view.
Karl R says
Liza said: (#126)
“What Rori suggests is not ever getting in the boyfriend-girlfriend trap in the first place if we want to be married.”
I suppose you’d also like to get a great job without getting into the “trap” of job applications and interviews.
Most men don’t marry strangers or acquaintances or platonic friends. Men marry their girlfriends.
Liza said: (#126)
“Six months isn’t a long time? Six months is an awful friggin long time if you want to be married.”
As a man, I’d like to be married for the rest of my life. Thirty to fifty years is a long time. Six months is nothing.
At six months you’re still getting to know each other. At six months you’re still infatuated with each other. You don’t know how you’ll feel about each other when the infatuation wears off.
Liza said: (#126)
“The competition quotient has to be there or they have no incentive to take the leap into marriage.”
Evan is married. His wife didn’t circular date. His desire to start a family was sufficient incentive.
I’m engaged. My fiancée didn’t circular date. My desire to spend the rest of our lives together was sufficient incentive.
But I have no desire to be in a long-term relationship with a woman who thinks that running around with other men provides “incentive”.
If a woman (or man) can’t act with integrity and fidelity through a year or two of dating, I expect that pattern will repeat itself throughout a 30 to 50 year marriage.
starthrower68 says
and @ karl 127, i agree with you karl. i have plenty of non-romantic but healthy and appropriate interaction with good men who are more like brothers or dads etc. they are an example to me of the sort of man to look for. circular dating may work better for younger people who are still learning about themselves and the world but i think it might be different for older people who have a little bit more life experience. where i’m at in life, if i meet a good guy and we’re looking gor the same things and the ingredients are there i’m going to give that my attention so we can go through “the seasons of life” together and see if it’s a good long term bet.
hlyn says
AMEN!
SP says
Evan,
I’m curious what your take is on the latest Rori Raye thread. Is a man crazy for bringing up the subject of marriage after three weeks, or is that something one might expect from a guy who’s really taken with a woman? I have friends who have been married within months of meeting each other (and these aren’t twenty-somethings I’m speaking of) who are happily married years later, and known others who have known their partner for years, took years to tie the night and had it end in disaster. Of course I also have friends who dated a year or more before they got married who are happily married years later. This is an ongoing debate for me and I’m just curious what your take is on the subject.
I was recently thinking I’m crazy to believe that a current date of mine might be thinking exclusivity after only three weeks. Then I remembered that you say a man should know after a month – three at the most – if he wants to date you exclusively and if not, dump him. Kind of beside the point here unless I’m incorrect and am crazy to believe this.
Btw, I’ve been following Rori and agree with a lot of what she says, but I tend to take bits and pieces from anyone smarter about men than I feel and do what feels right to me at the time – to varying degrees of success. I agree with you somewhat on the circular dating deal, but there are a lot of guys out there who will keep you at the girlfriend stage indefinitely. Don’t you think there’s some truth to the saying, “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”
Evan Marc Katz says
@SP – What Karl said. And…
I haven’t been reading Rori’s blog, but I know this was the subject of my interview with her in August. As a guy who makes up rules (or, actually observes them in the behaviors of men), I always want you to be wary of rules. There are always exceptions and those exceptions are the ones you’re citing. The person who gets married after 3 months and stays together for 40 years is an exception. The responsible, college educated couple who dated for 6 years before tying the knot in their mid-30s and then got divorced is an exception. Taking a long time to screen a partner is a good idea. Taking no time to rush into a wedding is not. And no amount of exceptions will have me waver from the rule.
A guy who’s talking marriage after three weeks is simply infatuated and out of his head, and shouldn’t be held responsible for the literalism of his statements. He means what he says, all right, he just hasn’t thought it through. He’s attracted to you, he likes you personally, he wants to be married, and he combines all of those statements into something daffy after three weeks like “I think I’m falling in love with you and I see a future together.” Down, boy. That’s just the hormones talking.
Science says that the “thrill” and the “in love” feeling generally wears off in 18-24 months. Which is why it seems highly irresponsible for anyone to get engaged before the thrill is gone. If you get engaged in your honeymoon period, well you’re in for a big surprise when you get married and five years down the road you finally start seeing that he has no sex drive and has a dangerously short temper. You just didn’t see this in the first 18 months because you’re intoxicated.
And that’s why all of the Rori acolytes who seem to believe that a man should propose within 8 months or some such nonsense are ultimately hurting themselves. If you think that you KNOW that HE’s the one after 8 months, why not wait another year to see what other character traits get revealed. Is there any harm in doing so? I don’t think so. But this fear-based worldview (when is he going to leave me? why buy the cow, etc) is simply disempowering.
He needs you as much as you need him. He wants to take his time to make sure he’s not making a colossal mistake. This is responsible decision making. Getting engaged after 6 months to 1 year? Not very responsible. Pretty shortsighted. And the probable cause for most divorces – two people locking it in while in the passionate stage, only to find out down the road that they’re fundamentally incompatible.
Finally, men aren’t with you for access to regular sex, which is why the “milk for free” argument doesn’t go very far. If he’s your boyfriend, he’s spending time with your family, taking care of you when you’re sick, listening to you after a hard day – that’s a pretty big price to pay just for sex, dontcha think? Once you realize that he’s as invested in the relationship as you are, perhaps you won’t feel so weak. Then, and only then, can you take on the stance that you have just as much right to walk away from a relationship as he does, which gives you EQUAL power. And you’ll have all the information you need to make that decision after 2-3 years of dating, not at any point in the first year.
Karl R says
SP asked: (#130)
“a man crazy for bringing up the subject of marriage after three weeks, or is that something one might expect from a guy who’s really taken with a woman?”
At three weeks you’re still practically strangers. At three weeks you’re also still infatuated, and infatuation tends to blind you to a person’s flaws.
The man may be really taken with a woman, but that doesn’t make marriage a good idea. At this point, neither of them have a clue whether they’ll work in the long run, so it’s a gamble if they jump in now.
SP said: (#130)
“I have friends who have been married within months of meeting each other (and these aren’t twenty-somethings I’m speaking of) who are happily married years later,”
When you gamble, sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose.
They got lucky. When the infatuation wore off, it turned out that they still liked each other, they were compatible, and they didn’t become disillusioned because the infatuation was gone.
SP said: (#130)
“I was recently thinking I’m crazy to believe that a current date of mine might be thinking exclusivity after only three weeks.”
Exclusivity is a different matter. I was sometimes willing to date exclusively at 3 weeks or less if I thought the woman had a lot of long-term potential.
Dating exlcusively just means that I won’t date anyone else until we break up (or until we change our mind about dating exclusively). There’s no promise that it will be long-term (though that was the desired goal). Therefore if things don’t work out, I can bail.
If a man hasn’t decided to date you exclusively by the 3 month mark, it’s probably because he has already decided that there’s no long-term potential (consciously or unconsciously). If you confront him on it, he’ll either step up or let you walk away.
SP asked: (#130)
“Don’t you think there’s some truth to the saying, ‘why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?'”
Not in the way the phrase is normally used.
If I want a cow, I’ll buy a cow. If I don’t want a cow, I won’t buy a cow.
If a guy is not interested in a cow (and just wants free milk), you will never be able to force him to buy a cow. You can only force him to get his milk from a different cow.
SP said: (#130)
“there are a lot of guys out there who will keep you at the girlfriend stage indefinitely.”
There’s a difference between a guy who is moving forward slowly, and a guy who is no longer moving forward at all. Learn that difference and you’ll know when it’s time to leave.
SP says
Karl R.,
Knowing when to leave is not my problem. THAT, I’m very good at. I was simply curious what Evans take is on that saying. That being said, I feel good knowing that at three months, I actually had given the man enough time to make up his mind, so thank you for that.
As far as “buying the cow,” I didn’t mean it in the traditional sense, but I do love your take on that, and especially the way you phrased it.
Thanks for the feedback. It’s much appreciated.
SP says
Oh! And another thing (Karl R @ 132) – if, after three weeks we’re still practically strangers, why the heck are we having sex? I mean, I’m WITH my dad on this one. He and his (now) wife (my mom passed away) and she told him they didn’t know each other that well, and he looked at her, looked down at himself and said, “I beg to differ. I’d say we know each other pretty intimately.”
I mean, I’m all for waiting to have sex. But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex. Because sex doesn’t produce as much oxytocin in a man as it does a woman (scientifically proven), so is it better to wait until he’s more emotionally bonded before we start opening ourselves up to bonding more closely (say, 18-24 months?)? Or are we golden if he’s still around after a month?
Karl R says
SP asked: (#134)
“if, after three weeks we’re still practically strangers, why the heck are we having sex?”
Are you asking for the male perspective? I usually decide whether I’m interested in sex within the first minute of seeing a woman.
Details that are important for marriage:
1. Do we want kids?
2. If so, do we have similar views on child-rearing?
3. How well do we make decisions together?
4. How well do we resolve our disagreements?
5. Do we have a similar approach to financial decisions?
6. How often do we like to have sex?
7. Do we sexually satisfy each other?
8. Do you have a shared set of values?
Have you ever known the answer to all of those questions at the three week mark? At the three month mark?
SP asked: (#134)
“But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex.”
Two of the aforementioned questions are generally answered by having sex. It seems that the majority of men won’t be sure about you until those questions are answered.
SP said: (#133)
“I feel good knowing that at three months, I actually had given the man enough time to make up his mind,”
You have given the man time to make up his mind about dating exclusively (instead of trying to juggle two or three women at once). Dating exclusively doesn’t mean as much as Rori seems to believe. It just means that I’m focusing my attention on one woman … until I decide that she’s the right or wrong woman.
The decision is still pending.
SP asked: (#134)
“so is it better to wait until he’s more emotionally bonded before we start opening ourselves up to bonding more closely (say, 18-24 months?)? Or are we golden if he’s still around after a month?”
One woman initially told me that she was not interested in a serious relationships with me; she was interested in a serious relationship with someone else instead.
Three months later she had fallen in love with me, and was somewhat surprised that I was not on the same page (despite frequent sex). I had consciously avoided bonding with her, since she had explicitly told me that she wasn’t interested in that kind of relationship (and she hadn’t informed me when the situation changed).
Men compartmentalize. If a woman wants to hold me at arm’s length (for her own protection), I find it easy to do the same (for my own protection). The only way the relationship progresses is if we’re both willing to get hurt.
If you’re not willing to get hurt, you’re not ready to date.
Cheri says
Karl R said: (#135)
“Dating exclusively doesn’t mean as much as Rori seems to believe.”
On the contrary, Rori says nothing much up to a man proposing means anything at all. Not meeting his family, not sex, not much of anything that women think means the relationship is moving toward marriage means much at all unless there’s an engagement ring involved. Which is exactly the reason she encourages circular dating.
Also, I see a lot of comments here about women ruining a relationship with a good boyfriend by continuing to date. However, Rori encourages women to not be a girlfriend, therefore if someone were to follow her concept to the letter, it would be impossible for her to “cheat” on her “boyfriend.”
Seems to me like many of the commentors on here don’t have much of an idea about what Rori’s theories actually are, or much of an open mind to learn about it before they do comment. And frankly, I feel surprised that since Rori and Evan are friends, that this article doesn’tmore accurately portray what circular dating is. While I haven’t seen where Evans’ flogging took place on the Rori’s blog, I have to wonder if it wasn’t due to a lack of understanding of the parties involved as much as anything else.
No disrespect intended, Evan. I’m not attempting to make excuses for any poor behavior. Simply making the observation that if the misconceptions expressed in the article were expressed on Rori’s blog, I imagine there were many misunderstandings on both sides of the debate.
Evan Marc Katz says
Respectfully, Cheri, if you’re “not a girlfriend” as Rori suggests, you’re not going to be a wife either. What am I failing to understand?
Cheri says
I’m not sure what you’re missing, Evan. Rori’s the expert on CDing. She’s the one who came up with the concept, practiced it and has been happily married to the man for many years. I was simply pointing out a few misunderstandings I saw here around the concept of CDing. As a woman who’s done things your way, been engaged twice (neither engagement occurred less than 2 years into the relationship) and still never been married, I’m perhaps a bit more open-minded about exploring other ways to find a happy relationship than many of the people on this site (or maybe even you). While it was my decision to end things both times and I don’t regret it, I know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over while expecting a different result. I also know that in CDing and committing myself to focusing on my happiness rather than focusing on any particular man (which CDing greatly facilitates) I’m a lot closer to walking down the aisle with someone I can be happy with the rest of my life than I’ve ever been. Will I become a “girlfriend” before that happens? I don’t know. I know that the quality of the men I’m dating now is much higher than any of the men I used to date. I know that I am more authentic, more confident and more open than I’ve ever been. So when I find myself in that situation, I feel confident that I’ll be able to discuss it with him and come to a decision that’s acceptable for both of us. And there will be some communicating about it. Which feels better to me than just hanging out, being cool and hoping he really is a marriage-minded man and a good prospect. I also know that if I were to agree to exclusivity, Rori wouldn’t beat me over the head and say, “no, no, no! Exclusivity didn’t work for me and it can’t possibly work for you,” or anything else that would make me feel “wrong” or “less than” in any way. I hate to see something that’s worked such wonders in my life discredited out of hand due to misunderstanding. That’s all.
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m glad you’re happy, Cheri. I’m just letting you know that men propose to their girlfriends. They don’t propose to women who are dating other men.
Cheri says
Thanks, Evan. Love your way with words and I’ll take that under advisement.
sammie says
When I first looked at this site I was triggered but on rereading I agree I personally found this the biggest challenge in Roris teachings.
Barbara says
Rori has some great ideas regarding the dynamics in a romantic relationship, however, any relationship, especially between a man and a woman, has to be based on mutual trust and respect. Having said that, I also believe that men are “hunters” by nature and need the thrill of “chasing” and “winning over” the women that they love. Rori is really good about teaching that, however, the Circular Dating takes that concept of not being completely committed or available, much further, dangerously so, I would say. I don’t think a woman needs to go that far in order to keep her boyfriend’s (or… whatever we’ll call him 😉 attention and to arouse his interest and a desire to be with her. On the other hand, I often see women who are too afraid to clearly express what they really want from a relationship, ending up dating some loser for many years, only to be dumped by him at the end. So… it all comes back to a healthy self-esteem and knowing what one wants from a partner.
TJ says
Seems like a fair, sensible, and balanced critique to me!
LC says
Most guys know if they’re open to getting married or not whenever they first meet you. That’s why the run off the minute things seem “serious.” Women shouldn’t wait for men. You should date as many men as possible and NOT SLEEP with them! See who likes you as a person and is a good friend to you. My Grandmother & Mother both dated lots of guys, and the special men who actually cared about them stepped up and married them! Dating for years is insane! You’re either committed to making it work, or you’re not, and it’s all very simple. Everyone is afraid to marry the wrong person, but it does no good to act out of fear. Men are mostly just looking for the Bigger Better Deal if they’re stringing you along for years with no marriage. A good man wouldn’t waste your time. Men use women that they don’t consider marriage material to satisfy their sexual needs, and then they move on to the woman they would marry.
Maria Rosa Lucia Isis says
Hello Goddess
You are making a difference sis-star trust in that
I understand your questioning, for me it is resolved by Christian Carter’s question, is it the ring on the finger that we really want, or the quality of the relationship ?
big LoVe all
Maria Rosa Lucia Isis
Dagaz says
i can’t agree more to Evan) for the god’s sake, mean are not cars! don’t reat them this way: oh, i don’t like this model, i will exchange it for another one.
yes, you can get a boyfriend or a husband by doing CD, but hm, i would stay away from the types of men who would fit in such picture. from such marriage, too.
man, relationship, feelings, words, actions – it’s very, very sensitive energy. don’t think about it like a typical consumer. you always will get what you’ve planted: you can’t get the lasting, faithful and loving relationship based on fear, insecurity, demand etc, for what CD is, if you look closer.
P.S. if i would be a man and my girlfriend would start to vent about CD and to get married ASAP, i would break up with her ASAP. because it’s far away from the woman in love and far away from the trusting friend.
to LC (#144).
i have a really hard time to imagine a man who wouldn’t try to sleep with me or at least to try to get more… intimate to me after the first date))) and i’m not a bimbo or vulgar or so, i can assure you.
so, to follow the advice, i should be stuck with first dates forever?
when you are agree on the date with a man, on the second date, on the third one etc – he naturally assumes that i am interested in all aspects of the relationship, not just having a dinner and occasionally holding the hands like a classmates.
…and just in case: i’ve red ALL books of Rori and have listened to all her classes.
some points are good – like to raising self-esteem, but there are tons of ways to do it without being manipulative (i mean CD in particular)
Carolyn says
I never got the impression from Rori that she meant to start circular dating while dating someone exclusively. I felt like she meant starting a circular dating theme in her life, to find who she does have things in common with, who she’d want to date even longer, who she might want to marry, not promising anything to anyone, dropping those who aren’t matching up, keeping the sex out of it because women tend to attach emotions with sex. It forces you to get to know one another for more than a sexual attraction, and frees you up to accept offers of dates from the man who might actually be Mr Right, whom you’d never have met had you been “tied down” with “not Mr Right”.
DinaStrange says
Trust and all, it’s good. But when a man takes his time thinking, whether he wants to marry her or not, woman’s valuable biological time is getting wasted. In three years a man still great catch, while she is 3 years older…
And let’s be fair in today’s world men value beauty AND youth…while women mostly value status and personality in men…think about that. If a man takes 3 years to decide if he wants to marry you…maybe u should be with someone who is gonna make that decision faster.
Dagaz says
Rori’s main idea is: if there’s no ring involved – keep CD-ing. and to tell a man right away, that my goal is to marry.
but, please, the ring cannot be involved after 3 month. or 6 month. or a year. or two and more years. and it’s totally NORMAL.
there can’t be a generalization, for how long couple should be existing, until they merge to happily ever after. every couple is a unique situation and the timing until the final decision might be so different.
and how poor guy would know for sure out of blue right away that this particular woman is a wife material, while he doesn’t know her at all?
so, if the man and woman are dating/seeing each other for a year – by Rori’s advice woman suppose to see other men meanwhile. i cannot imagine, by all means, a good man who would tolerate it. and i can’t blame him.
our tense “omg! time is flying!!!” doesn’t do any good to anyone. by following this feeling we forget to appreciate the nice, teaching, thoughtful moments in the relationship, we simply loose the ability to appreciate the man, because of this selective filter “faster, faster, commit!!!”
chicklet says
dude, sh*t or get off the pot!
Sarah B. says
I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your post and your honesty — Even as a guest blogger going against Rori’s “advice” — I don’t know how i found her but somehow I got on her e-mail list. As a monogamous dater I have to say that the CD principal definitely makes me squirm and I’ve never cared about who has the “power” in a relationship. thank you for offering more reasonable alternatives to “driving off the cliff.” especially “if he’s that bad just dump him.” Well duh. I hope more women find you before their losing their integrity in any relationship or worse yet a really great guy by falling into the lies of “women empowerment.” which is really just praying on our fear, insecurity or providing “protection” from just being vulnerable. Thank you. I’m listening. Sarah
amy says
Yeah, I have a friend who’s been pushing this on me. It’s just the Southern Model, Ev. I wouldn’t take it so seriously. Here’s her problem — maybe here’s the problem with all these dating coaching things: it’s just a clusterfuck unless the men understand the rules too. If you’re doing this in the South in 1950, cool, everyone’s on the same page, everyone gets it with the ring. Otherwise, a guy’s all wtf, and what the woman’s prompting him to do is to make a hasty decision.
In any case, the ring means so little. I’m standing here typing this while wearing my very favorite ring: one that was meant to be a wedding band. It’s gorgeous, carved 18K. (And no, I don’t feel bad about it.) I wear it on my right hand, and get asked about it often, just because it’s so beautiful.
I don’t know. I think it’s dumb. If you want to get married, the main thing is to find someone else who wants to get married and isn’t yet getting measured for a pine box. What I’d really counsel first is finding out what in hell marriage and motherhood actually are — and what stepmotherhood actually is — because boy oh boy, do a lot of women get surprised.
(How bad do they get surprised? I just booked my first vacation-vacation in 15 years. I rented a gorgeous cottage in a secure undisclosed location, and I got local mothers crawling out of the woodwork begging me to take them along. Begging. With desperation. They’re not trying to be funny; these are people who’ve lost themselves, lost their lives, and won’t get a chance to recover them for um years. Thank God the airfare’s expensive.)
N.Dylan says
I really appreciate this view point. My friend just loaned my Rori’s CD’s. There are many wonderful ideas and tools that resonated with me — but as a female the “dating until marriage” felt off. All of my friends who are in successful marriages and healthy relationships, have not done that. It does feel manipulative and contrived. I feel Marc’s views on this are much more authentic. Thanks for your thoughts, Marc!
Heather says
Thanks Evan, Really great post, nice to see a return to sanity and common sense.
kellyduffy says
everyone says something different
Dawn montefusco says
Thank you for writing this. I agree. It’s a hole in Rori’s philosophy. I have only recently begun reading and listening to her, and this particular issue was a red flag for me.
Euterpe says
SP asked: (#134)
“But do I need to be waiting until the guy’s really sure about me before we have sex.”
Karl: Two of the aforementioned questions are generally answered by having sex. It seems that the majority of men won’t be sure about you until those questions are answered.
OMG!
tj says
Dating is a fact-finding mission and sometimes we need to deal with people in the “black and white”, not simply based on our fantasies or expectations. It truly breaks my heart that so many have such hurtful dating experiences, but we have to learn how to separate our emotions from our experiential circumstances, superimposing our needs onto others.
We may have to think about how much time and effort we put into making large purchases, weighing the pros and cons and apply this strategy to our dating experience. In the evolutionary sense, perhaps it is all about economics to some extent. I am a woman and I want a loving, bonded, intellectually stimulating relationship just like the next person. I’ve recently ended a situation with a man because I felt that he was not treating me in the manner that a man would treat the woman of his dreams. Ultimately, treating me anything less than that does not bode well if a future was to emerge for the two of us. I think that people should present their best selves in the early stages of dating and if they are clearly not doing that, it is an omen of future maltreatment.
We who seek love need to have expectations for ourselves and expect the same from others. Love yourself first. Enjoy life and open up your heart in all the other ways that count. Perhaps then, real love may enter.
Circular dating should probably only take place in the initial stages of dating. If a woman finds that a man has qualities that she values and a potential relationship seems worth pursuing, putting circular dating to rest may worth considering.
Dating is like finding the ideal job, but remain encouraged!
Marie says
Rori has been misunderstood. It takes a deep conceptual reader to get her. Most people are taking her literal.
Evan is just talking like a typical man. I think “date” has numerous meanings for everyone, but those who realise “date” to Rori, means socializing, get her point.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#159)
“Rori has been misunderstood. It takes a deep conceptual reader to get her. Most people are taking her literal.”
Rori is an author who writes advice, which most people misunderstand (according to you).
You don’t see that as a huge flaw in the advice?
Marie said: (#159)
“those who realise ‘date’ to Rori, means socializing, get her point.”
If Rori actually means “socializing” when she uses the word “dating”, then why doesn’t she use the word “socializing” instead … and ensure that everyone understands her correctly.
By your reasoning, my cousin is good at giving directions. You just have to realize that “left”, to my cousin, means “right”….
Marie says
Karl (#160)
“social date”…put two and two together.
Like I said, there are several words in the english dictionary, which have become and are too wide “umbrella” terms.
Example. The word “Friend”.
*We meet someone today we call them “friend” tomorrow.
*We have someone who’s fun to be around, but not necessarily trusted, yet we still call them friend.
*We have a very trusted buddy (bro or sis from another mother, we say), we still call that person friend!
…..meanwhile, the idea “friend” carries with it all the insinuations of what a friend should be…and that’s why alot of people get burned by our so called “friends”, because we don’t have better broken down conceptions or descriptive words to use.
I have even proposed on my blog, a theory that introduces more terms under friendship to help us define which friend is which. You can read more of that here>
However, getting back to my point, the term “Dating” too, has been over generalized.
Being as, “I’m dating xyz”, could mean > xyz is my boyfriend
or “xyz and I are dating”, could mean> xyz and I are getting to know each other better and like each other
or “xyz and I went out on a date”, could mean> we once had dinner/lunch together.
Even friends (girl n girl, Boy n boy) have dates too!, people have double dates, blind dates etc
>>This generalization has obviously confused and will confuse people who have different expectancies, ideas and definitions of the word. Perhaps Rori can look into that, But like I said, deep conceptual readers would get her point.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#161)
“‘social date’…put two and two together.”
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
Marie,
“actual DATES”…put two and two together.
I think your “deep conceptual” reading of Rori’s advice has caused you to miss one of her points. And that’s the point that Evan and I believe is counterproductive.
Helen says
It’s funny: reading Rori Raye’s advice is like a throwback to the first half of the 20th century. This is exactly what parents advised their daughters and church leaders advised single women: if you are ready to be married and your man isn’t, then by all means, date other men. A conservative evangelical author Elisabeth Elliot was advising this as late as the 1980s.
I’m not saying that this means that the advice is relevant today. But we might want to refrain from saying X is moral and Y is not. This so-called “circular dating” was, after all, at least at one time considered the morally correct thing to do.
It’s just interesting from a historical perspective.
Marie says
Karl #162
Yes! Rori said;
Quoting Rori: (from one of her blog posts)
“I ALWAYS advise women to give a good man a chance — even an EXCLUSIVE chance at some time in the ‘dating relationship’ — but, if you’re ready to go, and he isn’t — then CD with actual DATES is the only answer.”
But she said THAT about a guy your dating, who’s NOT ready to “go”, while you are! THEN! Yes! you do ACTUAL dates!!!, (and you do them, because you need what the man cannot or is not ready to provide!!! After all, you CAN’T force the man to marry you!!!)
BUT otherwise that case, and even when married, she says and implies that you do what I have rephrased and coined as “social dating”, where in the case of a married woman, you date yourself or appreciate compliments from guys.
Stop being such an adamant Man about the matter. Seems to me you fear that women will come to terms with their true worth and independence, and stop settling for less, or getting hung up on some man, when they are truly, really, worth more than the current terms men dish out to them in our present state of the world.
Marie says
In not so many words………
Ladies, DON’T play marriage with a man if you are NOT yet actually married to him!!!
Selena says
@Helen #163
When I read some of RR’s philosophies my reaction was she wasn’t saying anything particularly *new*. Up until two generations ago, it wasn’t uncommon for women to have one than suitor at a time. Including up until one was serious enough to propose. The marriage minded fellows knocked those who weren’t – as much – out of competition through courtship. Though in those days, waiting to marry until one’s mid-to late 30’s wasn’t what anyone considered optimal and co-habitation without marriage wasn’t considered an alternative “commitment” by most.
On-line dating seems to have brought dating more than one person a time back into vogue. Women are now doing what their mothers and grandmothers did…evaluating which men are “stepping up” and recognizing those who aren’t. Many men may want to wait to marry until their mid to late 30’s, but this can be anxiety inducing to women who want biological children. I can see how continuing to date until a proposal is offered could very well return as a cultural norm.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#165)
“But she said THAT about a guy your dating, who’s NOT ready to ‘go’, while you are! THEN! Yes! you do ACTUAL dates!!!”
So if the woman’s ready for a deeper commitment, and the man isn’t sure, you (and Rori) advocate openly cheating on him. Do you think that’s acceptable behavior if the situation is reversed (the man is ready to propose, but the woman isn’t sure)?
If you do this, the man (if he’s like me) realizes that you lack integrity, breaks up with you, and breathes a sigh of relief about having dodged a bullet (by discovering your lack of integrity before proposing).
Given the same situation, Evan (and I) recommend breaking up with the man … which has the advantage of having integrity.
Marie said: (#165)
“Seems to me you fear that women will come to terms with their true worth and independence, and stop settling for less, or getting hung up on some man,”
I have no fear of a woman doing this to me. If she does, I’m dumping her and finding a woman with integrity.
That’s because I understand my true worth, and that I don’t have to settle for less than fidelity (physical and emotional).
Would you settle for a man running around with other women just because you aren’t committing as quickly as he would like? What makes you expect that men are any more tolerant of this behavior?
If a man tolerates this behavior, it’s because he has no interest in committing. And you’ve just given him implicit permission to start dating other women….
Evan is married. I’m engaged. The men who have made a commitment are saying that Rori’s strategy is a bad plan.
Selena said: (#166)
“this can be anxiety inducing to women who want biological children. I can see how continuing to date until a proposal is offered could very well return as a cultural norm.”
Think about Evan’s advice on mirroring. If a man continues do date other women, you continue to date other men. If he’s not ready to commit to you, don’t unilaterally commit to him….
That advice works in both directions.
I had a woman decide that she wasn’t ready to date exclusively. I resumed dating other women. If a woman is emotionally holding me at arm’s length (for her own protection), I will emotionally hold her at arm’s length also (for my own protection).
Selena says
Karl, please don’t make this about me, it’s non-applicable on many levels.
I’m suggesting that if an increasing percentage of men decide to wait until middle age to start a family – and most women who want a family want to start before they are middle aged – we may see a cultural shift. We may see a return not only to dating more than one person at a time, but also putting off exclusivity until the man makes his intentions (of wanting a family) crystal clear.
Women are becoming more educated in the realities of bearing children over 40. And of the risks of autism related to the age of the parents. Some men may want to delay marriage and child-rearing, but might not that make those who don’t need several years (decades?) more appealing? In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena and @Marie – Please reread my long post again.
Simply put, “You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first.”
If you refuse exclusivity (defined as “you’re my girlfriend, I’m not dating anyone else”) without a proposal, you will never find anyone to propose.
Men don’t propose to women after one month or three months or six months if they have their heads on straight.
And if you think that you can go on dates with other guys when he’s your devoted loving boyfriend, you’re going to alienate every man you date. Just like Karl said.
You simply can’t date another man if I’m your boyfriend. It’s called cheating. And no amount of “deep reading” can justify that action.
You telling me that you’re dating other guys when I’ve been faithful to you for a year and have yet to decide if I want to marry you will simply convince me that you’re too insecure, emotional and clueless to be my wife.
Despite how much I like Rori and how much good she’s doing in the world, dating other men when you have a committed boyfriend is a terrible idea, which will backfire with all but the weakest of men. I do wish you luck if you choose to implement this piece of “wisdom”.
Marie says
Karl #167
>>How many MEN is a woman supposed to break up with before she gets what she wants???
>>How many rounds through different men and heartbreaks is she supposed to endure till she finally meets the man of her dreams???
The woman stays with the MAN, simply because she still likes/loves him, and is giving him time to make up his mind, while she carries on and keeps her life going! (instead of getting depressed or nagging him into the type of commitment she wants).
A good guy, like you claim to be, should and would sit up and realize that since he loves his babe, he’d rather NOT let her go …rather than becoming a frightful rabbit (excuse my description) and dumping her for some dude who will be just ELATED at having her all to himself!!!! (and mind, maybe even giving her the type of commitment she really wants!)
After all, so many Great women (that he may actually really like) do NOT exist, and if he has one…..why dump her for another woman whom he may still not want to give the kind of commitment that she will definitely ask for, and the cycle continues!!!
Evan #169
I support Exclusivity with a man (I like), who is serious about marriage (or the same type of commitment I desire or have expressed to him) and has made such desires known as well (ie not someone who is vague about his intentions)….
….And mind, this “exclusivity” should be granted Months into the relationship, not after a few short weeks of just getting to know each other.
If the guy is deal breaking later on, I support the woman social dating! That shouldn’t be unacceptable to him, cus his actions aren’t exactly acceptable to me as well.
Evan Marc Katz says
To reiterate, Marie: You support a woman “social dating” while she’s in an exclusive relationship.
Here on Earth, that’s called CHEATING.
A man is not “breaking the deal” by not proposing. The deal is that he doesn’t date anyone else. SHE’s breaking the deal when she decides to Circular Date.
There is no way to logic your way out of this. You can’t start dating if he’s being faithful to you. No more than he can start seeing other women while he’s supposed to be your boyfriend. Any attempt to justify this can only fall flat. Men need time to determine whether we want to spend 40 years with you. If you start “CDing” before we’ve decided, we’re going to let you go, not try in vain to save a relationship with a woman who doesn’t understand how relationships work.
Selena says
Evan,
I don’t see this as “going dates with other guys when he’s your devoted loving boyfriend”. I see it as two people who are not on the same page about something important to them. If a woman wants marriage (and presumably children?) and her devoted loving boyfriend is still unsure after a couple years – there is probably a reason WHY he is unsure. I would sincerely hoped they had talked about it before the woman concluded she couldn’t keep waiting for him.
This isn’t about “cheating”, it’s rather breaking up, but leaving the door open. I don’t doubt many people wouldn’t accept the person they loved dating others, but one thing such a scenario is good for is to get the person who’s reluctant to marry to take a good, hard look at why they feel that way instead of stringing their “loving, devoted girlfriend” along for years.
Again, this is NON-APPLICABLE TO ME. I am not in this particular demographic. I just see it as a possible consequence of men putting off starting a family until middle age – the men who don’t need years, or decades “to decide” will be the ones who win the fertile ladies hand.
Evan Marc Katz says
Correction, Selena: Breaking up is breaking up. Dating someone else when you have a boyfriend is cheating.
And no one said that the man is not on the same page about marriage and children. He WANTS marriage and children. He isn’t sure if he wants it with YOU. And the earlier you pressure him with ultimatums like this, the more likely he is to bail.
Rori disciples seem to have little respect for HIS timeline (which, for men in their 30s, is usually 2-3 years), and expect him to KNOW he’s going to marry her within 8-12 months.
Sorry. That’s not how it works.
Oh, and I’m not sure we got an answer to Karl’s query: “What if a man knew he wanted to marry his girlfriend of six months, but she was unsure about whether she wanted to commit to him for the rest of his life? Should he be allowed to start dating other women while they’re in an exclusive relationship?”
Selena says
Nope. Telling your boyfriend you are breaking exclusivity means he’s no longer your boyfriend. Therefore it’s not cheating. Up to him whether he wants to go back to dating you along with others or not. Can’t blame if he doesn’t, but the choice is his.
I’m not a Rori disciple. I do think some men think of marriage within the year time frame. Personally? I think it’s unwise to marry someone you’ve known less than a year. Thinking about it, and acting on it are two different things.
A man wants marriage and children, but not sure if he wants it with YOU. After only 6 mos? Perfectly reasonable. After a year, one would think he would be a little more sure, if not quite ready to propose. Certainly after a year, the couple should be able to talk about it. After 2 years? Something is likely amiss in the relationship. Is the person who doesn’t want to marry discussing what is? If not, why not?
To answer Karl’s query:“What if a man knew he wanted to marry his girlfriend of six months, but she was unsure about whether she wanted to commit to him for the rest of his life? Should he be allowed to start dating other women while they’re in an exclusive relationship?
It would be the same deal. If he chooses to date other women because she won’t marry him, THEY ARE NOT IN AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. That’s what dating other people means. Up to her if she wants to keep dating him along with others. Can’t blame her if she doesn’t, but the choice is hers.
For the record, I believe when people are willing to let go of the person they love because they wouldn’t marry on their timeline (EITHER timeline), they likely didn’t love each other enough to BE married anyway. This, more than anything else is what breaking exclusivity makes clear. People who want to stay together, do so. Those who don’t, weren’t meant to.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Maria “The point is to TRY not to get into exclusivity in the 1st place”.
Ladies and gentlemen, the logic of Circular Dating.
@Selena – When I pointed out that dating others when you have a boyfriend is called cheating, you said it’s not, because it means that they’re not in an exclusive relationship anymore. That’s some interesting parsing. Because I would think that in order to start dating others, you would have to BREAK UP first. If you don’t break up first and then start dating others, it’s known as cheating. At least that’s what women call it when men start seeing other women within the bounds of an exclusive relationship.
Either way, once you start dating others without his consent, the reaction is going to be a negative one. If you have integrity and you don’t like where the relationship is headed, you’ll break up with him, not start openly cheating on him. That is what I advise: leave if you’re not happy.
susan says
to answer Karls question – allowed…interesting term. the question is probably moot becuase if the guy knows he wants to marry his girlfriend he probably isn’t going to WANT to date others.
The circular dating idea – in fact even the DATING idea is relatively new in my part of the world. It doesn’t sit so well with most women here, and men aren’t quite sure what to do with it either. generally the feeling is ”one at a time”. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not, but i find it hard to beleive it is possible to give the right attention and energy to more than one person at a time. I tried it, it was a disaster for me.
Marie says
Evan #171
You say “A man is not “breaking the deal” by not proposing.”
Oh yes, He IS!!! (because, like any other deal breaking act, there first has to be a deal. For some it might be cheating, for some it might be a legal commitment “marriage”, for some it might even be “social dating”)
My point however, is that its a deal breaker because he knew his woman’s’ desires and time line before hand, and expressed he was on the same page. His later on shunning of her desires, to me, is deal breaking, for that scenario.
Going back to Rori, now, she said when her husband(then live-in boyfriend) did just that….she moved out for a while.
Even though she didn’t state if they officially broke up or not. It’s during this stage that she suggests “dating”, while giving the guy time to re-evaluate and make up his mind.
However, that is for a serious relationship that has involved exclusivity at some point.
Finally, I’d say, everyone has their own point of view to different matters. I appreciate both dating experts (Evan and Rori, respectfully) and I believe their philosophies are providing guidelines (not exactly hard and fast rules) to dating, for ladies all over the world.
I’ve often said, children should be taught guidelines to dating and how to relate to the opposite sex, in high school. Why should they get good grades in maths, english & physics, when most will still grow up to fail poorly in such a basic and primitive act now called dating, because they are left to learn by trial, error and heartbreak.
Marie says
Might I rephrase: Why should they get good grades in maths, english & physics, when most will still grow up to fail poorly in such a basic, primitive and ESSENTIAL, IMPORTANT act now called Dating, because they are (in modern times, at least), left to learn by trial, error and heartbreak.
This topic of Dating is even more important that any other subject taught in school, because we all go to school ultimately to get a job(s). We want jobs above all reasons, to sustain a family (our children)……YET, we are not taught how to Date!!! #sad#
Marie says
In answer to Karl’s query: Yes! Men do it all the time anyway, and most times, they get away with it.
All a guy needs to do is start flirting or giving less attention.
However, the point is to TRY not to get into exclusivity in the 1st place, and not play “owner” when you do not or until you actually “own”. And this goes for both women/ladies/girls, and men/guys/boys.
Out of all the numerous dates and courtship, a woman and man may actually gravitate to themselves and get very close (this is how was done) eventually the guy(or guys) may propose to her, and she may accept from whichever she really wants or likes.
Though, like i said, everyone has a right to their perception or their own point of view.
Selena says
Correction, Evan: Dating someone else when you have broken exclusivity means that person is no longer your bf/gf. And therefore not cheating. You can leave the door open to them to date you knowing you are dating others. Can’t blame them if they don’t want to do that, but the choice is still theirs.
Same answer to Karl’s query: If a man tells his girlfriend he is going to start dating other women because she won’t marry him THEY ARE NO LONGER IN AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. She could continue to date him – can’t blame her if she doesn’t want to, but the choice is still hers.
The thing about ultimatums: you are not only giving one to the other person, you are giving the same to yourself. With the described scenario, the man or woman willing to break exclusivity can’t count on the other wanting to continue seeing them under those parameters, they are prepared to let them go.
I believe if you can’t understand each others “timeline” there is something amiss within the relationship. Perhaps you aren’t such a good fit. Or one of you does not really see the two of you together for a lifetime, but can’t (or won’t) communicate that.
I think 6 mos. is too early to have a timeline. Two years isn’t.
In any event, people who are willing to let someone they love leave their life may not love the person enough to actually BE married to them. True of both parties.
Helen says
I am wondering if, in our debate about Rori Raye’s advice, we could leave out judgmental terms like “cheating” or “integrity.” Can’t we simply acknowledge that in different cultures even within the same country and different times, people view(ed) dating and marriage so differently that they are guided by different notions of appropriate behavior?
Consider what Elisabeth Elliot has to say about this topic, which is remarkably similar to what Rori Raye says, although their backgrounds could not be more different:
“Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right has he to claim her exclusive attention? Unless she has been asked to marry him, why would a sensible woman promise any man her exclusive attention? If, when the time has come for a commitment, he is not man enough to ask her to marry him, she should give him no reason to presume that she belongs to him.”
While I may not agree with her stance, nor her religion, I would judge her from the whole of her life to be a woman of integrity; certainly not a “cheater” in any sense of the word. I accept that many people around me do think as she does about dating and marriage, even if I don’t, and that doesn’t make them cheaters or lacking in integrity.
And what is this but advice for circular dating, though it was written 30 years ago by an evangelical Christian?
So let’s try not to be too judgmental toward Rori and her adherents. This notion is not new, and some people who follow it genuinely believe they are acting in good faith. I think this is one more of those things that two people need to discuss when they first start a relationship.
Selena says
@#181
Exclusivity: Agreeing you both won’t date other people.
Breaking Exclusivity: Openly telling your lover you are going to date other people. And why.
Cheating: Dating other people on the sly when you’ve agreed not to with your lover. Dishonest.
Very clear. Non-debatable. Hyperbole doesn’t change it.
I’m interested in how the popularity of online dating may be changing the culture of dating. In the forums I read, dating multiple people at a time is becoming more the norm opposed to the “one at a time” approach popular with later born baby boomers and Gen X.
There also seems to be variation when it comes to the word, “Exclusive”.
Some believe it means simply dating one person at a time. Nothing more.
For others it means the two of you are a couple. Boyfriend and girlfriend.
And there are those who consider it a ‘sacrifice’. It means giving up one’s options to meet and possibly have sexual access to others one might meet.
And for some it is apparently a commitment they will make only if they feel an engagement of marriage will follow.
I wonder if the novels produced by Gen Y, might end up reflecting similar values to the novels of Jane Austen.
Since no one else is interested in discussing these social and potential social changes – I bow out.
Kathleen says
I agree with Evan Leave if you’re not happy.
With my boyfriend, we commuted 2 hours for a year Then I moved in with him for a year After I moved in all talk of marriage evaporated At 2 years of being with him I let him know I was preparing to leave He thought about it and we got married soon after ( and for the next 20 years) If I had started dating other guys while I was still with him he would have ended it right then.
Helen says
Selena 182: I’m certainly interested, but this may not be the right venue for it, since people come to the discussion with their particular sets of values, and it can be difficult to try to get others to understand anyone else’s differing values.
I did not think Marie 178 was being illogical when she suggested avoiding exclusivity. In certain Christian circles, and in certain cultures worldwide where matchmaking is common, the notion of exclusive dating is very strange. Either a couple is close friends without “sexual benefits” before becoming engaged, or they are matchmade and may not even know each other that well before getting married.
However, the predominant culture in America is one of a certain set of rules when dating. Okay, if that’s what people agree to abide by, that’s fine. But it is worth acknowledging that not everyone around the world (or even everyone around them in their community) follows these same rules. So writing someone off as “cheating” or lacking integrity for not following the same dating “norms” seems a bit myopic.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#182)
Exclusivity: Agreeing you both won’t date other people.
Note: this requires both people to agree.
Breaking Exclusivity: Openly telling your lover you are going to date other people. And why.
Note: you’re saying that it’s okay for one person to decide to change the agreement without the other person agreeing to the change.
Cheating: Dating other people on the sly when you’ve agreed not to with your lover. Dishonest.
Note: I made a distinction about “openly cheating.”
Selena,
Here’s a hypothetical situation:
Tonight I go home and tell my fiancée that I’m going to start having sex with one of the women in my dance class. I’m not breaking the engagement. I’m not asking her permission. I don’t expect her to agree to it. I’m just informing her in advance.
Do you believe my fiancée would describe my behavior (sleeping with the other woman) as “cheating”?
If I follow through on what I just said, it’s still unethical. I would expect my fiancée to dump me. I would expect to get branded as a “cheater” in our social circle.
And I don’t think the semantics (which you’re engaging in) are going to change the perception of our community as a whole.
Feel free to test my hypothetical situation in real life. Let me know if the semantics make a difference.
Selena said: (#174)
“Telling your boyfriend you are breaking exclusivity means he’s no longer your boyfriend.”
That’s called breaking up. Which is exactly what Evan and I recommend (as the ethical alternative to circular dating).
But I would rephrase that: “Telling your boyfriend that he is no longer your boyfriend means you are breaking exclusivity.”
There’s less room for confusion.
Helen asked: (#180)
“Can’t we simply acknowledge that in different cultures even within the same country and different times, people view(ed) dating and marriage so differently that they are guided by different notions of appropriate behavior?”
This is dating advice, not a theoretical discourse on cultural values. If you know of a (current) culture where the men would find this acceptable, tell us which one it is. I’ll try to remember to point it out as an exception.
In mainstream American culture, men propose to their exclusive girlfriends. If the girlfriend decides to break exclusivity in order to apply pressure, most men will dump her. (Definitely exceptions for men with little/no self-esteem.)
Marie said: (#176)
“My point however, is that its a deal breaker because he knew his woman’s’ desires and time line before hand, and expressed he was on the same page.”
I have gone through the “exclusivity talk” numerous times. I have never been told the woman’s time line. I’ve never been asked to agree to her time line. Some women have expressed a desire to get married (in principle), but none have stated an expectation that they would be marrying me. None have stated that they expected me to eventually propose.
In your last serious relationship, did you tell your boyfriend (before agreeing to exclusivity) about your desire to be married and discuss your time line in explicit detail? Did you get him to explicitly agree to propose to you according to your time line?
If that was actually the case, you had a different deal than most women.
Marie asked: (#170)
“How many MEN is a woman supposed to break up with before she gets what she wants??? How many rounds through different men and heartbreaks is she supposed to endure till she finally meets the man of her dreams???”
Dating is hard for everybody (women and men). It’s painful for everybody. And if anybody tries to use that to excuse unethical behavior (like openly cheating inside of an exclusive relationship), I will recommend that their partner dump them.
Marie said: (#170)
“A good guy, like you claim to be, should and would sit up and realize that since he loves his babe, he’d rather NOT let her go …”
If I love a woman, but I’m uncertain whether she’s the right one, and she breaks up with me, then I might decide that I’d rather move forward (despite uncertainty) instead of losing her.
If the woman begins dating other men, I will realize that my uncertainty was justified. I may love her, but I’d rather go through the heartbreak now, instead of facing years of a lousy marriage with a woman who lacks integrity.
If you break up with a good man, he might fight to keep you. If you begin dating other men, you demonstrate that you’re not a good girlfriend, and he realizes there’s nothing worth fighting for.
Marie said: (#170)
“rather than becoming a frightful rabbit (excuse my description) and dumping her for some dude who will be just ELATED at having her all to himself!!!!”
Have you ever dated a divorcee?
And by “divorcee”, I don’t mean a man who is actually divorced. I mean a man who is separated.
And by “separated”, I don’t mean a man who has actually gotten a separation and moved out. I mean a man who has informed his wife that he wanted a separation.
I bet you were just ELATED at the thought of having him all to yourself!!!!
Being the second boyfriend is terrific if I just want a fling. I get some of the fun and none of the responsibility. And that’s exactly the relationship your second boyfriend wants.
Marie said: (#170)
“After all, so many Great women (that he may actually really like) do NOT exist, and if he has one…”
If your boyfriend begins openly cheating on you, do you continue believing that he’s a great boyfriend? Or do you realize that he was lousy boyfriend all along?
I’ve broken up with some amazing women because they made lousy girlfriends. They didn’t even cheat on me (which may explain why we’re still friends). It’s the same advice Evan gives women: If the great man you’re dating is a lousy boyfriend, then you need to get rid of that lousy boyfriend.
Selena said: (#168)
“We may see a return not only to dating more than one person at a time, but also putting off exclusivity until the man makes his intentions (of wanting a family) crystal clear.”
I must be a trendsetter.
Twenty years ago I was not interested in getting married. I was not interested in starting a family.
I was in explicitly in non-exclusive, non-monogamous relationships with a series of women. The men who don’t want to get married are completely on board with this plan.
susan said: (#175)
“i find it hard to beleive it is possible to give the right attention and energy to more than one person at a time. I tried it, it was a disaster for me.”
I can give enough time and attention to a couple women … but only if we’re keeping it casual. I can’t develop a serious relationship under those conditions.
That’s why men propose to their exclusive girlfriends.
Kathleen’s example (#183) is exactly what Evan and I would recommend. My sister did the exact same thing to her boyfriend (and even moved out). They’ve been married over 25 years.
Kathleen didn’t date anyone else. My sister didn’t date anyone else. Breaking up works. Dating other men (without breaking up) is counterproductive.
Selena says
Thank you Helen for your reply #184. Agree, this thread is obviously not the venue to discuss cultural differences and values.
It is apparently the thread to continue beating your own dead horse, oops! I mean drum. @Karl #185
Marie says
Exactly my point Karl!; Now you are getting through to my point of view!
YES!! A so called “Great” boyfriend, who isn’t cheating, but making his girlfriend miserable by waiting, is in actual and real fact a Lousy one! Everyone, take off the rose colored glasses!!!
While remaining non-exclusive is great, Ive stated before;
” I support Exclusivity with a man (I like), who is serious about marriage (or the same type of commitment I desire or have expressed to him) and has made such desires known as well (ie not someone who is vague about his intentions)….
….And mind, this “exclusivity” should be granted Months into the relationship, not after a few short weeks of just getting to know each other.”
Perhaps the bit I may add now is that I should probably break it off with him if he seems to be stringing me on. Yes! ill take that one….
BUT, ultimately, No one on earth has a right to own/retain/book down another human being according to their terms…(especially when the both of them have not made a mutual legal/spiritual agreement to belong to each other (a.k.a) marriage) and expect that the unhappy person should stay, because he/she is a self-titled “good” bf/gf.
Ruby says
I am not advocating or condoning anything one way or another, but here’s how i see circular dating working. A woman has been dating a man for a while, say a couple of years. They’ve been in an exclusive relationship, but lately, things have not been progressing much. They don’t want to break up, but the man is not willing to move forward. The woman has two choices: she can end the relationship, and see if the boyfriend steps up to the plate, or she can PULL BACK, see the boyfriend less frequently, and spend more time with friends, on her own, or even on dates (which as I see as “friendly” dating). She is not necessarily having sex with anyone else, but of course, while doing this, she MIGHT meet someone who is more committed to her needs. The theory is that the man will feel threatened that the woman is drifting away, and this may inspire him to make more of a commitment. Of course, it may not work any more than breaking up would work, but it’s another strategy. Notice that I am not advocating this, but simply noting how the concept might work.
There are stages to dating. Initially, you might be dating someone casually, along with others. Then you might move to dating one person, but with no specified commitment, and then to being “boyfriend and girlfriend” in a relationship with implied potential for a serious commitment. From there, you might move to living together, and so on. As i see it, “circular dating” takes a relationship that is not moving forward back to a more casual level of dating, rather than completely ending it.
Evan Marc Katz says
That’s exactly it, Ruby.
And if my serious girlfriend goes “casual” because I haven’t proposed, then I’m more likely to break up with her than commit to her.
Which is why it may sound good in theory, but in practice, it falls apart.
I will not feel closer to a girlfriend who tells me she’s dating. I will feel more distant. As would you if your boyfriend started seeing other women.
I don’t know how much clearer this could be.
Ruby says
EMK #189
“I will not feel closer to a girlfriend who tells me she’s dating. I will feel more distant. ”
I don’t think you’d feel closer to a woman who broke up with you. I haven’t gone back to re-read this entire thread to see if this has actually worked for anyone, though (besides Rori Raye, that is), but I don’t assume that it absolutely would not work, as you do. In fact, I first saw this strategy advocated in an article I read about commitment back in the early 90’s, so it’s really not that novel.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not a matter of whether it’s novel or whether it made sense in the 40s when men married women after three months so they could get laid.
It’s about whether this is an effective strategy. I feel quite strongly that it is NOT – that dating another man to get your boyfriend to propose to you is completely backward and antithetical to the principles of healthy relationships. Anyone who favors “Circular Dating” want to weigh in on how you’d feel if your boyfriend started dating other women because you weren’t positive you wanted to marry him? I can’t see any way of this HELPING a relationship.
You think it’s been too long and you should have a ring? Break up with him. It’s stronger. It sends a message. It has teeth. It means you are really leaving him because you’re not satisfied. He can try to win you over, but you’ve already exited the building.
Dating someone else is passive-aggressive bullshit which doesn’t account for the fact that you are openly CHEATING on your man. And we tend to frown upon that, as you might imagine.
Kathleen says
Ruby Read my example ….
If you leave a guy who knows you love him he will feel the loss and wonder if he’s made a huge mistake..
If you date other guys when he has been good to you and loyal he feels betrayed and with that comes anger
Marie says
#191
Honestly Evan! I don’t see why it should be called cheating!
The man should be happy that the lady even gave him months of her life to begin with!
I think you are too wrapped up with your self righteous perspective of who a “good” man is!
“””He is a good man, you should give him time, he means no harm…..BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!
She too is a GOOD woman!!! (for him to make her his gf in the first place) and For him to frustrate her to whatever level she has taken, is his fault!!!
If he dumps her, WELL, he was an insensitive brat to begin with!!! and I’m even happy for her!, she doesn’t need such a rigid self absorbed person in the first place.
To hell with what you think a woman should wait for his ring and blah blah, That is NO reason to tie a female to yourself and expect her to keep proving to you beyond her wits that she is a “great” woman( wagging her tail), till at the end she proves she deserves your prize.
Unfortunately for you, you fail to realize that women are the missing piece in any guys puzzle. Its NOT for a man to be pleased, convinced and begged, but for the man to appreciate, to woo, to please, to adore a woman!!!
If he had a GREAT lady to begin with, and he was insensitive enough to drive her to the chasms of circular dating or breaking up or whatever……SHAME ON HIM!!!
You know what??…He might as well break it off (as you say) and do exactly the same thing with another woman! After all, he needs and has all the time…he could go another 3 year round, because he neeeeds to make up his mind….And when that woman cant wait, GUESS WHAT!!!….He can break it off again!!… OOHLAALAAA!! Wonderful!!! Good for him! BRAVO!!!
Whoever came up with the idea of exclusive dating, must have been a man!…and guess what it SUCKS! Women are becoming too smart for it.
Of course the rules that come with it, what you term cheating, its all part of the bullsh*t attached!
Women are sensitive (and most wouldn’t want to do what is considered wrong) and by terming what we call harmless, social dates, as CHEATING, men have toyed with our consciences and kept us in line. To bad we see through it all now.
My point in fact….. Just because you adamantly call it CHEATING, doesn’t mean it is!!!
WHO MADE THAT RULE???????? Tell me!!!
The man too is FREE…….FREE like a bird, to also meet other ladies!!!
Perhaps when they have both had that time out, they might both come to their senses, and get back together….OR they find what they are looking for in someone else.
(That may be: the woman finds someone who is ready to give her the commitment she wants, and the man finds someone who is willing to wait three years with him)
I hope that answers your question.
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, Marie. It totally answers my question. You’re completely out of touch with reality. A man is a brat for not proposing to every woman he’s in a relationship with. A woman can get married without being a faithful and exclusive girlfriend. We’re all clear.
Paragon says
Singular investment in a LTR is dependent on confidence in exclusivity, and circular dating principles can only work to undermine that confidence.
If a woman feels compelled to adopt these principles, either from a mercenary notion of maximizing/insuring
her prospects, or because of the short-term benefits posed by indulging multiple suitors(betraying a penchant for strategic pluralism – making her a bad bet for any singular male investment), then she will be failing to justify this confidence during the formative stages of a LTR.
Successful anecdotes will represent the exceptions, not the rule.
Selena says
@#191
This is tiresome.
Breaking exclusivity is dropping a relationship down a level. Does it work for couples other than RR and her husband? I don’t know. It sounds painful to me.
What it ISN’T is cheating. You can’t cheat on someone you are not exclusive with.
Helen says
Selena, you’re right. You can’t cheat on someone with whom you’re not exclusive, because if you’re not exclusive with someone, s/he doesn’t “own” you.
Karl had asked earlier where this way of thinking applies. Even John Gray of Mars & Venus fame espouses it. In one of his books (“Mars and Venus on a Date”), he talks about five stages of relationship, the last being marriage. In the previous four stages, if you’ve moved too far ahead and the other person hasn’t (whether that person is male or female), he recommends to move back a stage or two, even moving back to the stage before exclusivity (the third stage). That does entail saying to the other person (either male or female) that there is still an interest, but they will date others. If communicated openly and without anger or resentment, that will be the catalyst for the other party (male or female) to consider how important the relationship is to him/her, and s/he can make a choice to break off or move deeper in the relationship with the partner.
This theme crops up again and again. It’s not just Rori Raye’s “circular dating,” although she does put a name on it. Elliot and Gray have both recommended it. And from what we can gather of the comments here, some approve of it, and others don’t. So it has always been.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#194)
“You can’t cheat on someone you are not exclusive with.”
Helen said: (#195)
“You can’t cheat on someone with whom you’re not exclusive, because if you’re not exclusive with someone, s/he doesn’t ‘own’ you.”
Can you show me (in Rori’s work or any of her supporter’s statements) where they indicate that this new “non-exclusivity” (when a woman trying to encourage your “exclusive” boyfriend to propose) applies to the man also?
Look at what EB (#27) said.
“It seems like a double standard to me to date other men while he ‘makes up his mind’. Sure, just starting out is OK, but once things progress, how can I expect him to trust me if I am out doing who knows what with other men? And then, to expect him to NOT date others is selfish and unfair!”
“If after a reasonable amount of time ( this can vary by person) your needs have not been met, then cut him loose — don’t openly cheat and expect that to improve the relationship!”
She’s reading the same thing into Rori’s ideas, and she’s a fan of Rori’s (and presumably better versed in her work than I am).
Or SMC: (#117)
“During that time, I was disturbed that Rori’s blog said that it was okay for me to CD but that he couldn’t. Such a double standard!!”
Or CD fan GingerSky: (#124)
“men CDing is just a sign he’s not husband material or doesn’t want you…”
Look at Twilight Princes (#54) or Jadafisk (#92) who also seem to read this inequality into Rori’s explanations of CDing.
If there is no exclusivity, then I completely agree that there is no cheating. But if both people agreed to mutual exclusivity, and then one person decides that exclusivity only applies to the other person….
… what term would you use to describe that situation?
To use a metaphor, this particular aspect of CDing involves:
1. Changing the rules in the middle of the game.
2. Only one person agreeing to the rules change.
3. Different rules for the two players.
4. Rules which clearly favor one person over the other.
If you did that in the middle of a sporting match, you’d be accused of cheating.
Helen said: (#87)
“can’t we just apply the Golden Rule here?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I wouldn’t want my man to be dating others if we were in a serious relationship, so I wouldn’t do the same to him.”
Have you changed your mind about this?
Helen says
No, Karl, I haven’t changed my mind about anything. The two people in a relationship need to be on the same page about this. For my husband and me, it happened naturally and we did not need to discuss this. For others, discussions may be necessary.
John Gray’s advice about moving forward and backward in relationship stages applies to both sexes, not just women. If Rori is being hypocritical and saying only women should do x, y, z, but men are not allowed to, then I would not support it.
Marie says
While I don’t mean to bash you, Evan…
You may want to bring me back to reality.
I’m a Nigerian, and I live in Nigeria. Women here are totally used to the type of dating you are recommending and talk about.
They are practically raised to worship men, wait on them, the headline of their future goals is to get married.
The men have caught on!.. They string ladies along for years, some even bear children for them out of wedlock.
And the men still keep on stringing them on. The women don’t complain, oh no…They’re used to it, expect it sometimes…It is dating afterall..The men are GOOD men…”They” will take care of them eventually.
Young ladies waste their youthful days pining over ONE bf… WHY?! Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his “gf” of several years (mind he had been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!
I’ve come to discover:- A man would only get serious when he WANTS to, never before!
Any Woman who gets in his path before he is ready, is just that! JUST in his path!
And when the man eventually decides he is ready, it doesn’t take him time atall…he’s literally scouting through women, looking for whom to call his wife!
If he is Blessed to find a GREAT lady on time….He is very lucky! and he doesn’t hesitate to put a ring on her finger!
What Rori Raye and Others who may preach “circular dating” have done…is give women (all over the world) a way of spending their time positioning themselves in a position where they are available when a man who is truly ready, can get to them, and scoop them off…..instead of them (ladies) being blocked off because they are in an (exclusive) relationship.
While I believe your intentions are good…and I believe you are one of those straightening out dating problems in the world…you might also need to understand where women (all over the world) are coming from and the different perspectives that may be involved.
Great debate, by the way!
Evan Marc Katz says
I guess we’re gonna agree to disagree, Marie.
You said, “When the man eventually decides he is ready, it doesn’t take him time at all…he’s literally scouting through women, looking for whom to call his wife!”
Maybe that’s the way it works in Nigeria. But here in the U.S., people are together for between 2 and 2 1/2 years before getting married, on average. So if you’re losing your cool after 1 year, and you start dating other man, you’re not going to reach the point where he’s comfortable marrying you. You’re working completely on your timeline and giving no respect to his. Foolish men who propose in three months are NOT what you’re looking for. You should want a man who takes his responsibility as a husband very seriously and knows that he’s making a smart, lifetime decision. Those decisions take years to make, not months. And if you start circular dating while he’s still trying to decide, you’re going to push away the best men.
Karl R says
Marie said: (#200)
“Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his ‘gf’ of several years (mind he had been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!”
Is this an example of a “good” man?
Regardless, what is the benefit of circular dating this man? I would recommend dumping him (or never dating him in the first place). How is dating this kind of man (plus some other men) preferable to not dating him at all?
Selena says
@ Karl #197
I’ve read some of RR’s articles in the past and from what I remember the jist is a man doesn’t need to CD because he is the one who is satisfied with the relationship “as is”. The point of breaking exclusivity is to give him all the time he needs to decide if he wants to claim the woman. He either “steps up” or he doesn’t. Not wanting to date her if she is cd’ing other men would be an example of doesn’t. The choice is his. The woman doesn’t manipulate him at all, her job is stay in the feminine, cd, and let him come to her if he chooses.
Presumably her programs give much more detail, but you would have to purchase them if you are interested.
It occurred to me earlier there are other examples of breaking exclusivity that are fairly common: Taking a break from a relationship is one; trial separation is another. In these scenario’s the couple may date others as well as each other. And they don’t consider it cheating.
Paragon says
@ Marie
“She too is a GOOD woman!!! (for him to make her his gf in the first place) and For him to frustrate her to whatever level
she has taken, is his fault!!!
If he dumps her, WELL, he was an insensitive brat to begin with!!! and I’m even happy for her!, she doesn’t need such a rigid self absorbed person in the first place.
To hell with what you think a woman should wait for his ring and blah blah, That is NO reason to tie a female to yourself and expect her to keep proving to you beyond her wits that she is a “great” woman( wagging her tail), till at the end she proves she deserves your prize.
Unfortunately for you, you fail to realize that women are the missing piece in any guys puzzle. Its NOT for a man to be
pleased, convinced and begged, but for the man to appreciate, to woo, to please, to adore a woman!!!
If he had a GREAT lady to begin with, and he was insensitive enough to drive her to the chasms of circular dating or breaking up or whatever……SHAME ON HIM!!!”
You sound frustrated, and are making alot of assumptions here.
If someone has tacit expectations for a relationship, it is something they should discuss openly with their partner, and then make decisions based on whether they feel these expectations are likely to be met.
After that, BOTH parties are free to make whatever decision they feel is most agreeable to THEM.
Again, the *only* strategic advantage for circular dating(compared with ‘breaking-up’), is in maximizing courtship benefits from multiple suitors(it will *not* incentivize a man to commit, even as much as breaking up with him).
In other words, it is a rationalization for a kind of open relationship that attempts to place the onus on the male party.
Some men WILL be OK with that, but some won’t.
It sounds like you are deeply resentful of the fact that SOME men are critical of circular dating principles, and would not
tolerate a non-exclusive partner.
But, I suspect that no amount of shaming language is going to convince men to go against their better judgement(I being one of them).
“The men have caught on!.. They string ladies along for years, some even bear children for them out of wedlock.
And the men still keep on stringing them on. The women don’t complain, oh no…They’re used to it, expect it sometimes…It is dating afterall..The men are GOOD men…”They” will take care of them eventually.
Young ladies waste their youthful days pining over ONE bf… WHY?!”
Because, if Nigeria is like NA, women tend to be disproportionately invested in a very atypical sample of ‘choice’ males.
The kinds of males who tend to be non-committal, for the wealth of sexual options they enjoy.
If this is indeed the problem, it bears a simple(if unsympathetic) solution – stop fixating on non-committal males.
I can only speak for NA, but here, there is NO shortage of males who are low-risk for promiscuity, following from a sparse(occasionally non-existant) relationship history.
The dilemma is, that these kinds of men tend to be invisible to women, and their low-risk indications perhaps a
consequence of their low mate value.
Marie says
Paragon #204
I am not frustrated, as even though I live in Nigeria, I do not fall under That category of women. I have not encountered such experiences on a personal level BUT I merely speak on their behalf because it is what I see or hear happening all the time.
It is very interesting to see that Evan’s dating advise caters to only American women, and that he seems very disinterested in widening his perspectives.
Perhaps I should rephrase a bit of my earlier post:
“Alot of the time, the man breaks it off with his “gf” of several years (mind he **MAY** have been cheating all the while) and marries a woman he met just 3 months ago!”
Mind I am Not saying all Nigerian males cheat or are promiscuous, oh no! I’m just saying, most women are brought up ALREADY with the sort of dating idea Evan has professed! Its inbred.
What i’m Illustrating, is that it really DOESN’T always work!
It is NOT as concrete as Evan makes it out to be…
Perhaps the same goes for Rori’s concept too!
HOWEVER, it is for individuals to try/choose whichever works for them. Besides it is quite disapproving for one to openly bash the other (even going as far as writing a whole blog(including the other’s name) and calling wrong, the other’s theory)
That’s why there is Christianity and there is Islam, and several other religions too…..
That’s why you go to a store and find many products labelled that they do the same thing!…..You choose what works for you!
Paragon says
@ Selena
“@ Karl #197
I’ve read some of RR’s articles in the past and from what I remember the jist is a man doesn’t need to CD because he is the one who is satisfied with the relationship “as is”. The point of breaking exclusivity is to give him all the time he needs to decide if he wants to claim the woman. He either “steps up” or he doesn’t. Not wanting to date her if she is cd’ing other men would be an example of doesn’t. The choice is his. The woman doesn’t manipulate him at all, her job is stay in the feminine, cd, and let him come to her if he chooses.”
As I understand it(and please correct me if I am mistaken), circular dating is a policy of non-exclusity(and I am assuming,
just on the female side?), taken until the point of an accepted engagement(or it is marriage)?
The problem with this strategy, is that circular dating communicates *less* about wanting commitment
than about *wanting to date other men* – the two are *not* equivalents.
Any way you choose to rationalize it, dating other men communicates one thing above all others – a desire to date other men.
And few men will be foolish enough to commit to a woman who expresses such a desire, regardless of how she attempts to justify it.
In fact, circular dating all but *ensures* that the only men who will abide such an arrangement, are non-committal men.
If that *isn’t* irony, then perhaps circular dating is truly about reaping courtship benefits from multiple suitors, under a sympathetic pretext of securing ‘commitment’.
Selena says
@ #206
Perhaps those interested in Rori Raye’s ideas should go to the source. She has numerous articles archived on her website and an email address for those who may want further clarification.
Monique says
Evan, I am a big fan of Rori Raye, and I think the general message of CDing has been misconstrued. It’s not about cheating, or even ultimatums. It’s more about boundaries and not creating complacency in a relationship (especially before the commitment is official). Now this is just my take on it, but I think the concept of CDing is to be honest with the man. If getting married and started a family is important (and to most women it is) then that’s something the man in question should know. Of course I’m NOT saying a woman should continue to actively “date” when she has met a great guy that feels the same way she does about everything important. However, I am saying that it seems to be a fact that if a man becomes complacent then he tends to also become less concerned about moving forward. But here’s the bottom line, if he’s such a great guy and he is on the same page romantically then he’ll be as eager to move forward as the woman, and the topic of CDing won’t even come up. A woman SHOULD always keep her options open until she is someone’s wife…Why not??? Men certainly keep their’s open.
Paragon says
@ Monique
“A woman SHOULD always keep her options open until she is someone’s wife…Why not??? Men certainly keep their’s open.”
Which men?
Non-committal men?
There is no shortage of men who are predisposed to monogamy, and commitment(in fact, we should expect that there are MORE such men than women).
If women are tending to non-committal men, then I submit that there may be a problem with their selection process(circular dating *would* represent just such a problem – see below).
Any sensible man is going to want to go exclusive for a trial period – circular dating would seem to preclude such a notion.
Again, the problem with Circular Dating, is that few men are going to want to singularly invest in a woman who’s policy it is to date other men until marriage, because such mercenary opportunism(ie. expressed as a policy to prioritize her ‘options’) is reasonably perceived as a risk-factor for long-term stability(ie. what is
to say she will *stop* prioritizing her ‘options’ open once she marries?).
Ironically, the men who will be most amenable to circular dating are *non-committal* men(doh!).
Which is why circular dating is such an asinine strategy for securing commitment from a man(ie. it is actually *selecting*
for non-committal men).
Selena says
@Paragon #209
Whilst I don’t think keeping one’s options open until receiving a proposal is “asinine”, I do think it may be unrealistic outside of certain cultures in the US at present time.
Since some men and women are more goal oriented towards marriage than others, I wonder if placing more emphasis on what the “boyfriend/girlfriend” stage means may be more effective. That is, one only agrees to being at that stage when they feel confident both are on the same path. If people feel they are on the same path, perhaps there would be less dissonance when it comes to a timeline.
If they are on the same path, wouldn’t they be more likely to be on the same page after a year together?
Thoughts?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Selena – The only people who seem to have trouble understanding what boyfriend/girlfriend mean are the Rori folks. It means that they’re dating exclusively and are not looking to date anyone else. As to whether this relationship becomes permanent, that is dependent on four things:
1) Whether she ever wants to get married.
2) Whether he ever wants to get married.
3) Whether she’s decided that he’s the man she wants to marry.
4) Whether he’s decided that she’s the man she wants to marry.
You should very well know whether you’re both marriage oriented within the first few months of dating. The next two to three years of dating are for both of you to decide whether you want to marry each other. And this victim’s mentality, as if it’s entirely up to men to decide if you get married, is completely disempowering. You should think long and hard about whether you can build a life with a man over 40 years – if he is kind, consistent and has character – how you spend money, deal with disagreements, get along with family, etc. This is not always stuff you learn in year 1.
Put another way, both parties may want to ultimately be married, but they should not know if it’s to each other for a pretty long time. How many couples date for one year or two years before breaking up? LOTS of them. That’s not because men lack integrity. That’s because PEOPLE gather more information over time, or decide that love isn’t enough, or because they stop accepting problems in their relationship, or because something new is revealed, or because they decide they’re not ready, or because they stop being afraid of being alone, or because they don’t let inertia carry them to the altar or because they decide that freedom to find the right person is greater than the sunk costs of a dissatisfying relationship…
It takes two to tango. Both marriage-oriented parties have every right at any time to decide not to proceed. And if either party decides, that’s the RIGHT decision – the responsible decision, because it’s the HARD decision.
Selena says
Evan,
I very much agree with what you wrote in #211.
However, I think there are marriage-as-goal people, and go-with-the-flow people. Go-with-the-flow people may go to the bf/gf stage in 1-3 mos. with the understanding the r’ship could, possibly result in marriage, but without the expectation that it will.
Marriage-as-goal folks may enter the bf/gf stage with the expectation that it will lead to marriage. And if they agree to it without making the other person aware of that expectation…they may find themselves disappointed to find their bf/gf isn’t on the same track after x amount of months. And it isn’t because the man, or woman lacks integrity.
There seems to be no agreement as to the definition of exclusivity. For some it merely means dating one person at a time. For others it implies a level of commitment – for some people a serious commitment. Which is why I think marriage-as-goal people are better off getting their cards on the table early in the getting to know each other stage, and not moving to the bf/gf stage until they know the other person is similarly goal oriented.
As Ruby and Helen have pointed out, the concepts being associated with RR aren’t original to her. They are based on traditional courtship patterns in other cultures and eras, and the ideas of other, earlier writers. I’ve read some of RR’s work, I’m interested in the original ideas, not her ‘spin’ on them.
Evan Marc Katz says
I disagree, Selena. I’ve given you the definition of exclusivity – dating one person at a time. Whether two people are meant to last a lifetime is the whole purpose for dating. I completely agree – and have already stated – that you should know if a man would like to be married eventually. He will usually reveal that in the first few months.
But this has nothing to do with the original post, where a devoted boyfriend of 18 months can suddenly discover that his exclusive girlfriend is dating other men because he hasn’t proposed yet.
Just because a guy wants to get married doesn’t mean he wants to marry YOU. That’s his right. Just as it’s YOUR right to dismiss a man after 18 months because you’re not getting YOUR needs met.
But if you dismiss a man because your timetable is considerably faster than his, you’re going to have a lot of trouble when reality hits. Most men wait 2 years to propose. You’re better off playing it cool to get that ring than “circular dating” if you want to be married. That’s all this post was ever about.
Paragon says
The issue of conflicting timetables is a valid concern, but circular dating isn’t the answer.
Again, as soon as she resolves to ‘nudge’ things along with circular dating, she is planting a seed of doubt as to her true intentions, and her fidelity as a long term partner.
Hence the guys who are most tolerant of these kinds of doubts, will be those who have no intention of a long term investment(ie. non-committal men).
Selena says
@#214
If you read RR’s work (apparently you have not) the point of circular dating after having been in an exclusive relationship is not to ‘nudge’ things along. Men do what they want to do. If he still isn’t sure he wants to marry after having been exclusive for x period of time that’s his right. A woman wants a man who wants to marry her, not one who doesn’t. It’s her right not to stay exclusive with one who doesn’t. If she wishes, she can leave the door open for him should he decide to walk through at a future date.
He knows her intentions, it’s his which are in doubt.
Clare says
I realise I am very late to this discussion, and I only have a superficial knowledge of Rori Raye’s approach, but for my part, I would think that *closeness* is what facilitates marriage.
When I am close enough to someone that I would want to get married to them, the idea of them disinvesting in me to date others, or to make themselves the centre of their universe, would utterly destroy me, and the idea of disinvesting in them so that I could date others would make me feel physically ill.
If I am so close to someone that I can imagine him as my husband, there is no way on this earth that I could see other people.
It seems to me that this is a way to avoid getting hurt, to disinvest and pretend he doesn’t mean all that much to you, so that you can kid yourself into thinking you have “all the power”. The way I see it, you can’t have the one without the other, the deep love without the risk of getting hurt.
As much as my heart goes out to those women who have invested time and again in a man, only to be disappointed when he doesn’t commit, as much as it can make you feel dangerously insecure to think that you are “the more loving one”, openness and vulnerability are what people respond to.
For my part, even though I am a marriage-orientated woman, I can’t understand the wisdom of rushing to the altar. Getting there should be an organic process, in which trust and selflessness play a major part. I cannot see how that is served by hardening yourself and essentially “testing” your relationship by pursuing other people. If you test something enough times, it will break.
Helen says
Sometimes, how men think/speak and how they act are two very different things.
Without knowing it was “circular dating” over 15 years ago, I did break exclusivity with the man I was seeing then. No attempt to play games; just a genuine uncertainty about how the relationship was going. He redoubled his efforts to win me back, and not because he was non-committal or a loser. Come to think of it, this has happened more than once, and certainly not just to me.
Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.” But when the actual scenario presents itself? – Most men compete. I’m not saying that this is a good thing. I’m saying that this is what happens.
Emily says
yes.. it’s true. Men SAY they don’t like game playing, the Rules, playing hard to get, or when women make them compete for their attention with other men… how they act is a different story- quite the contrary! (in my experience as well…)
Selena says
Re: #217
I think when someone isn’t ready to move a relationship forward there is a reason beyond “I’m not ready”. There is a because at the end of that sentence. “I’m not ready because…”. I can see how if a man, deep down, knows he doesn’t want to be with that woman – forever – he wouldn’t be willing to compete for her. Why should he?
I can see breaking exclusivity as a way of weeding out non-committal men who may be unwilling to admit they are non-committal.
Karl R says
Helen said: (#217)
“Men are motivated by competition. They can say, ‘If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.’ But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.”
When one long-term girlfriend broke exclusivity, I began dating other women. When another woman started playing hard-to-get (pre-exclusivity), I decided to cut her loose in favor of women who didn’t play games.
My fiancée fell in love with me about a month before I fell in love with her … because she initially told me that she wasn’t interested in exclusivity (with me), and I wasn’t about to get emotionally entangled with a woman who was interested in pursuing someone else. Spending five nights per week at her house … no problem. Getting entangled with someone who wasn’t prepared to reciprocate … not going to happen.
This topic reminds me of a Jeff Foxworthy quote:
“Guys, if a woman says to you ‘I think we should start seeing other people,’ trust me, she has already cut a pony from the herd, and if she ain’t ridin’ him yet, she has pulled the saddle out of the barn.”
Why do we laugh? Because it’s generally true.
Helen,
If your husband/fiancé/boyfriend implied that he wanted to sleep with other women, would you feel motivated to compete for him?
Selena said: (#218)
“I can see breaking exclusivity as a way of weeding out non-committal men who may be unwilling to admit they are non-committal.”
I’d say that breaking up is a better way. Let the man know that you’re breaking up because he seems unwilling/unable to move forward and commit. If he doesn’t want to lose you, he’ll step up. If he doesn’t want to commit, you’re not still in a relationship with him.
Rochelle says
The parts of CD-ing that make me uneasy are the ones being debated here– going on actual dates with other guys all the way up to a proposal and dating while in a relationship with a guy who isn’t “ready” after a decent amount of time. Sounds like it would make more sense to leave, then date other men..and if he wants to find his way back he will and the girl would have all the power to decide. And in most cases, neither the man or woman knows for sure they’re getting married iwthin only 6 months of dating… It happens but it’s not the norm. I think while in an exclusive relationship that you agreed to, there’s no harm in dating yourself, and “flirting with the world” because it’s not good to just be focused on your man. But going on actual dates doesn’t sound good to me… Even if no sex is involved and just some other level of physical intimacy. As for dating more than one man while not in an exclusive relationship, I discovered it really helps me not focus on any one man and investing in a relationship that doesn’t exist yet, and help me keep my heart open. I don’t have to tell him I’m dating other guys and he might be dating other women, so no need to shut down my options.
And going with the whole girlfriend/boyfriend way becoming exclusive, I think it’s best to do after a few months rather than a few weeks to 2 months (which I see other girls my age doing with men who ask them in a shorter amount of time, only to realize it’s going nowhere), and talk about the fact you want marriage for yourself (not necessarily with him) to reduce the risk of being exclusive with a guy who has no intention to marry or really see if wants to. Men do want to hear not just assume what we want and if we wait to mention marriage after becoming exclusive, he might be like “hmm I wasn’t really thinking about marriage when I asked her to be my gf, this is probably going to be temporary”… I think when a man asks me to be exclusive, this will be my plan. I feel like there’s a lot to learn from both Rori and Evan’s advice even though they don’t see everything the same way.
Helen says
Karl R: I wouldn’t know, because it’s a hypothetical. I can theorize about how I’d respond, but when it comes down to it, the way people think they’ll respond and the way they actually respond are very different. Daniel Gilbert has researched this as well. I was discussing actual happenstances, not hypotheticals.
In truth, I don’t think you and Selena (and I) are talking too far apart. What you may call breaking up, she may call breaking exclusivity. We can summarize it by saying, “taking a step backwards in the relationship.” That’s how John Gray put it. No need to get too hung up in the terminology. In real life, stages of any relationship (not just romantic) are not so black and white, anyway.
Selena says
@ 219 Karl R.
I’d say that breaking up is a better way. Let the man know that you’re breaking up because he seems unwilling/unable to move forward and commit. If he doesn’t want to lose you, he’ll step up. If he doesn’t want to commit, you’re not still in a relationship with him.
Breaking up is an option. Breaking exclusivity and being willing to still date each other is another option. It’s his option. If he doesn’t want it, or take it…isn’t the result the same?
I would think there would be some soul searching, and in- depth discussion before a couple would get to the point of considering breaking up, or breaking exclusivity, don’t you? Do you really believe there aren’t people who would be willing to take a step back, rather than let go right then and there completely?
Do trial separations, taking a break from a relationship always result in the end of a relationship? Same deal.
Evan Marc Katz says
Wrote this on Rori’s blog yesterday. Conversation has been light but respectful.
For what it’s worth, EMK (now speaking in the third person) thinks you should be exclusive with a guy after no longer than a couple of months. He has all the evidence he needs at that time to forgo other women. I wouldn’t sleep with him until he was your boyfriend either. If, after a few months, he’s not stepping up, dump him. Move on.
This is where it gets interesting.
Because if you do have a boyfriend (meaning: he’s sleeping with you exclusively, calling you every night, leaving his weekends open for you, talking about a future, integrating you with his friends/family, calls you his girlfriend), it will now take, realistically, about two years for him to figure out if he wants to marry you. This is not only very realistic but very wise. Because the longer you wait to get married, the less likely you are to make a colossal mistake. Chemistry usually wears off between 18 months and 3 years, which is another reason to delay proposal. That’s when the smoke clears and you realize what it will be like to be with a flawed man for the rest of your life.
And while I appreciate your concern, especially if you’re in your late 30”²s, early 40”²s, two things are particularly ineffective in making a man feel like he wants to marry you:
1) Pressuring him before he’s rightfully ready.
2) Dating other men.
If he’s a good, relationship oriented man who wants to be married, but hasn’t figured out if he wants to marry you, your best bet is to give him time. If you start pressuring him or actually dating other people because you don’t have your answer, I respectfully submit that this will backfire on you.
I know there are many women — especially Rori — who disagree with my assertion. That’s your prerogative. My job is to explain what men think. What you do with that information is up to you. But the only reason that I ever write about this stuff is that I feel particularly strongly that this one particular aspect of CDing will not have its intended effect. In fact, it will have the opposite effect — it will make a man who was highly considering proposing to you second-guess your entire relationship.
The thing to do when you have realistically had enough (which is closer to 2-3 years), is to simply break up with him. You’ll have a lot more leverage at that point, since he will have considerable sunk costs and have a hard time picturing life without you. Either he’ll step up at that point, or he’ll step out. But at least you will have respected his reasonable time table instead of pushing him way before he’s ready. The reason that we date you — the reason that we call you our girlfriends — is in order to figure out if we want to spend 40 years with you. It’s quite reasonable for him to take that responsibility seriously and not buy a $10K ring and risk half of his assets until he’s really, really sure.
And as anyone who’s been in a 2+ year relationship knows, things do change from 6 months to 3 years. You should be constantly evaluating whether HE’s a good husband material for a few years before you’re ready to say yes as well.
Look before you leap, Sirens. And respect the fact that if he’s a good man who wants a family, he’s really trying to do the right thing.
Oh, and for the one reader who mentioned me and my wife. I proposed to her in 16 months because she was 39 and I wanted kids. It was very risky and I wasn’t sure I did the right thing. All of my other friends who married 40 year old women waited 2-3 years before proposing. Those women are now happily married because they waited instead of CDing.
Good night and much love.
Respectfully,
Evan
Erika says
@223 EMK: Makes perfect sense to me, I don’t know how anyone could make a logical argument against any of it.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#222)
“I would think there would be some soul searching, and in- depth discussion before a couple would get to the point of considering breaking up, or breaking exclusivity, don’t you?”
Really?
I’ve had three serious relationships end in breakups. In each case, one person did the soul-searching, made a decision, and announced that decision to the other person. The “discussion” was a few sentences long.
Have your breakups been that different than mine?
Selena asked: (#222)
“Breaking up is an option. Breaking exclusivity and being willing to still date each other is another option. It’s his option. If he doesn’t want it, or take it…isn’t the result the same?”
Let me illustrate the difference. Let’s assume your long-term, live-in boyfriend hasn’t proposed, and you’re trying to motivate him.
Scenario 1: You tell him that you’re breaking up unless he decides that he wants to marry you.
Scenario 2: You tell him that you’re breaking exclusivity unless he decides that he wants to marry you
In either case, it’s his option. In both scenarios, he says he understands. He needs some time to think about it, but he’ll give you an answer in two weeks.
Scenario 1: Your boyfriend moves out of your apartment temporarily and stays with a relative.
Scenario 2: Both of you are still staying together in your apartment. On the third evening, your boyfriend stays out late on a date. Two nights later, he doesn’t get home until morning. He has three more dates (one of them overnight) before the two-week deadline.
After two weeks, he announces that he wants to marry you. Do you believe that your desire to go forward and marry him would be identical in those two scenarios? Is the result the same?
In Scenario 1, he didn’t spend his evenings/nights with you, but he didn’t spend them with other women either. In Scenario 2, he spent some of his evenings with you, and some with other women. That’s the difference between the two scenarios.
In both cases, you “took a step back” for two weeks, and he decided to marry you. Do you feel differently about Scenario 1 and Scenario 2? If so, can you explain to me why you feel differently?
Paragon says
@ Selena
“If you read RR’s work (apparently you have not) the point of circular dating after having been in an exclusive relationship
is not to ‘nudge’ things along.”
Then why do so many women in this very thread *disagree*(or are we reading different threads)?
“Men do what they want to do. If he still isn’t sure he wants to marry after having been exclusive for x period of time
that’s his right. A woman wants a man who wants to marry her, not one who doesn’t. It’s her right not to stay exclusive with one who doesn’t. If she wishes, she can leave the door open for him should he decide to walk through at a future date.”
What possible reason could she have for *not* breaking up with him, unless she *still* wants him in the picture(which is what circular dating *implies*)?
I am just pointing out(with justifications), why this is not a sound strategy forf cajoling committment(and yes, I was making that assumption).
@ Helen
“Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.” But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.”
Yes they do, but most *marriage-minded* men are not so reckless as to compete for a woman with a demonstrated penchant to break exclusivity(I have already provided my justifications as to why we should expect this).
Selena says
@Karl
If I were to break exclusivity with someone I would not continue co-habitating with them. There would be no Scenario 2.
@Paragon
She’s giving him the choice to be in the picture.
Clare says
I agree with you Paragon. The only reason to “leave the door open” for him is because you secretly hope that he will come walking through it. You secretly hope that your behaviour will cause him to want to invest, to want to commit, which to me says that you are care and are more emotionally invested than you are willing to admit. Hence my belief that this Circular Dating idea is actually simply a protective mechanism.
Maybe it’s just me, but I simply don’t believe love works this way. I think loving someone to the point that you want to be married to them means being all in. Maybe it’s just me but I cannot see on what planet you can actually be deeply in love with someone, and still be willing to disinvest and hurt him by going on dates with other people.
The honourable and authentic thing to do, if you really feel that this relationship is a dead end and you want to explore other options, is to break up with him.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#227)
“If I were to break exclusivity with someone I would not continue co-habitating with them.”
Nice attempt at dodging the question.
Fine. Revised Scenario 2:
You stay with a family member for those two weeks. You find out from a third party that he went on five dates (overnight twice). He also went on two dates with you. At the end of two weeks, he says he’s decided that he wants to marry you.
Do you feel the same about Scenario 1 and Revised Scenario 2?
Selena says
Karl,
I believe there are people who would – and do – go back a level in a relationship.
Like Helen, I also believe sometimes what people say they would do in a particular situation, may not be what they would actually do in that situation.
Your scenarios are not going to change my opinion.
Shall we move on?
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, we can move on, Selena. Very much like your boyfriend will after you start seeing other guys. Very much like a woman should do when her boyfriend sees other women.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#230)
“I believe there are people who would — and do — go back a level in a relationship.”
You earlier gave the example (#222) of trial separations. That’s an interesting choice for an example. If a white woman separates from her husband, there’s a 98% chance she will be divorced 6 years later. (There’s a 80% chance if she’s hispanic, and a 72% chance if she’s black. These are statistics from a CDC report.)
I am quite aware that some people go back a level in their relationships. I’m also aware that it usually spells the end of the relationship.
If someone is about to gamble their relationship, Evan and I will tell them that 98% happens more often than 2% (and 72% happens more often than 28%).
Selena said: (#230)
“Your scenarios are not going to change my opinion.”
As far as I can tell, you have never practiced this type of circular dating. As far as I can tell, you have no intent of ever practicing this form of circular dating. As far as I can tell, you would not tolerate having a man do this type of circular dating behavior to you.
It’s not your opinion I’m trying to change. Your opinion appears to be identical to mine (which explains why you keep dodging my questions).
I’m trying to sway the opinion of any women who might be foolish enough to listen to someone who is preaching the validity of a system that she’s opposed to practicing.
Paragon says
@ Helen
““Men are motivated by competition. They can say, “If that happened to me, I’d break things off because I deserve better.”
But when the actual scenario presents itself? — Most men compete.””
I would like to add that men compete, out of necessity – that *successful* men are amenable to competition, should come as no surprise to anyone(on the other hand, how many habitual *losers* should we expect enjoy the *thrill* of competition?).
@ Selena
“Do trial separations, taking a break from a relationship always result in the end of a relationship? Same deal.”
Less so, perhaps – and only because of the increased male liability posed by divorce.
But, this is classic cherry picking – a strategy doesn’t need to fail EVERY time, for us to justifiably conclude that it is a losing strategy.
“She’s giving him the choice to be in the picture.”
Yes, that’s my point.
She wants him in the picture.
BUT, if she is using circular dating as a strategy to cajole committment, it is the opinion of myself and others,
that this strategy is likely to backfire in a big way(for reasons that have been specified already, ad nauseum).
Colette Kenney says
Evan, I’m on your “side” not that we’re taking sides.
I’ll be honest, I’ve skimmed both yours and Rori’s blogs, but I’ve pretty much got the jist and my intuition tells me that this is a fear-based tactic to protect yourself from getting hurt.
The reality is, there are NO GUARANTEES in love, and as you mention again and again, it becomes plainly OBVIOUS by a man’s actions if he’s really into you and true boyfriend material.
Now if you want to MAKE SURE he’s husband material, well, you’ve got to be confident and secure enough to have a mature conversation with him about it (and even then, there are still no guarantees).
Oh, and, a mature conversation doesn’t not include “if you don’t want to propose, I’m out of here, and buddy, it’s your loss.”
If you’re at 3-9months into a relationship and you’ve had a mature conversation about your desire to be married, he may have said it’s what he wants too, because he doesn’t yet know if he does, but he knows that he likes you enough to not want this relationship to end.
Can’t blame a guy for that. How many things do us women not know 100% what we want. How can we be so pompous to sit there an judge men for not being absolutely clear on one of the biggest decisions of his life: Going from lone wolf to part of a pack. It’s scary as hell for most men, even the ones who feel sure it’s what they want.
If you’re together forever, 3 months or 9 years, and then one day he decides he just doesn’t want to do it (get married), I say, Oh Well. It sucks, but oh well.
Everything is purposeful and perfect. Nothing is a sure thing. Even marriages end in divorce. And, more than anything: Everything happens FOR you, not TO you.
Sometimes you get what you need, not what you want.
CDing, in my opinion feels manipulative, controlling, and against the flow of life.
I love your advice Evan. I quote you all the time in my session with clients.
xo Colette
Heather says
Great blog. I read very critically. I’ve been reading off and on Rori’s posts on her mailing lists. Here advice is good, but in some cases seems a bit over the top. I totally disagree with telling your guy you are going to date other men – assuming he’s a good guy. Just as you said, if he’s a bad guy, he needs to get dumped. End of story. Any man that I’d want would tell me to go pound salt if told him I was going to go date other dudes.
Gina says
So yeah I have been listening to the Rori Raye stuff and some of it doesn’t seem to make sense. Basically she tells women do not call a man ever. do not text him. do not ask men out etc. Seems to be quite a generation gap going on here. So I’ve been trying to follow her deal and I can tell you that it has not garnered me any more interest from men. I’ve been trying my best to do the steps she proposes and I have had much less dating activity than before.I just don’t get how your supposed to get all these dates if you are not even communicating with the men. most women are excited to get asked out by one guy its not like they are just falling out of the sky here. I was hoping to find some feedback from women who took her advice and were successful with it. The Cdating does seem unorthadox but I think it can be a tool if you are dating a non committal man.( or maybe he’s the tool ha ha ) One of the points that was missed is that in cir dating you also date yourself. Meaning you don’t even have to date other men just find what you enjoy and do it. This way the woman Isn’t totally focusing on the man which is good. She just wants women to stop wasting their time with guys who don’t care about you as a woman. A non-commital guy wont care who you are seeing and it gives the woman some emotional distance so she can see he doesn’t care and be in a position to dump his ass. Also she says you should not be sleeping with these men you are dating ( another generation gap issue I think )
Basically it boils down to this and I agree with her here. If you have a non committal guy and he is dragging his feet and doesn’t want to move forward, saying to him “well you can have all the time you want to decide about a commitment but you cant have me all to yourself while your deciding.” would create a little distance for a man to realize he doesn’t want to lose you. But if he does want to lose you or just doesn’t care then you ARE better off with out him, and should get out and date other men. my problem with Rori is that she is giving dating advice from the prospective of a woman who has been married for 20 yrs Kudos on a lasting marriage but she hasn’t dated in a loooong time and things are different now than in the sixties or whenever she was dating. Also she obviously has a commitment minded man because he married her and she wasn’t doing all this cir dating crap with him when they were so how can she know that it works ?
Loren Bump says
Virtually all of whatever you articulate happens to be supprisingly legitimate and it makes me wonder why I hadn’t looked at this in this light before. Your piece truly did switch the light on for me personally as far as this particular topic goes. But at this time there is one point I am not really too cozy with so whilst I make an effort to reconcile that with the main theme of your point, permit me see just what the rest of the subscribers have to say.Very well done.
Amy says
I have been a big fan of Rori and a frequent reader on her e-mail list. She really captured a point with connecting to a man through his emotions. The one thing that always plagued me was exactly your point.. circular dating. I knew this was not it for me who have been in a relationship with a good guy for 4 years. And his response to Rori’s idea of this was mild outrage. This leaves a big gaping hole for not only long steady relationships but also marriage. Finding an answer to the question, “So, what about after marriage?” Seems to be an impossibility. But my point it I heartily agree with you that this is the major flaw.
I have read a few of your articles before while browsing around and I have to say that one thing leaves me feeling a little bit irked. I realize most articles about love are probably written from a females point of view and as long as this world exists males and females and the differences will excite arguments. But I just have a question and would like to make a point by it. I have been an insecure female as I take one of your past relationships seemed to be, from what I read. And I have worked through a lot of that inside myself. My partner is also somewhat jealous and insecure as well. My question is this. If you saw your wife looking at glossy photos of men regularly, what would go through your mind? Would you wonder why she needs this separate satisfaction? And this leads me to ask, do you hold yourself to the same standard of confidence? Are you as confidant as you require your partner to be? Personally in my relationship I see a double standard and in the end, even though the score is even, I am the insecure one.
Yes, kind of a rant of my own. In the end we are all just self absorbed and human. But somehow their can be a beauty in it. Anyways, thank you for the article, you are good to write it and maybe save a few innocent people from wrecking their lives. Wow, dramatic sounding but true.
mezzanine says
“I don’t want to be the girlfriend, I want to be the wife! You don’t become the wife unless you’re the amazing girlfriend first.”
Says who? Dr. Presumptuous? I stopped reading your post at this point because I don’t understand how an experienced relationship blogger could make that assertion, as if you’ve never given it a second thought, as if this is the way things have been since the 1970s so that’s the way they should remain. Did you decide yourself that relationships have been working well using this model? Please check marriage and divorce statistics.
I don’t agree with everything Rori advocates, but I do know that people don’t necessarily get to know each other better, deeper, or with more quality as gf & bf than they do simply dating non-exclusively until there’s a real comittment in place. And come to think of it, there are no gf/bf relationships in Rori’s philosophy — that would be YOUR blind spot. The whole point of circular dating is to keep yourself open and available for Mr. Right instead of burying yourself in a bogus commitment with Mr. Who Knows?
It’s also my personal belief that getting to know someone is much more efficient without a sexual involvement or cohabitation, because you’re seeing the person clearly rather than through a sex-fog or a familiarity-fog. It doesn’t take 3 years to know what you want with someone you’re dating, unless you’re having sex with them.
I hope you’ll examine your biases sooner rather than later. What may seem radical to you and many of your readers could be just the concept we need to begin finding balance, harmony and contentment in our relationships.
For instance – have you read Dr. Patricia Allen, whose groundbreaking ideas Rori bases much of her work on? If you’re not familiar with her work then nothing you say here has credibility to my mind, and you’re just another irresponsible attention-greedy blogger. If you have read her work, then evidently you need a refresher.
Evan Marc Katz says
@mezzanine – I know marriage and divorce statistics far better than you do, but that’s neither here nor there. Here’s all that matters:
Show me one man who proposed to a woman who was NOT his girlfriend. Seriously.
What possible incentive would a man have for buying a ten thousand dollar ring for a woman who is NOT committed to him? Why would a man propose to a woman who is “circular dating” to potentially be available to a different Mr. Right? Objectively, if you can date other men while I’m committed to you, you will NEVER get a ring. And if I’m dating other women (circular dating), you’d have every right to question my commitment to the relationship.
And if you can’t understand the logic behind that – if you’re so ground into your fantasy that women can be unfaithful (circular dating) and STILL get a ring – well, we can’t have a real conversation.
Finally, I know Pat Allen. I’ve read Getting to I Do. She’s a bright woman with a lot of good ideas. And if Dr. Allen concludes that a man will propose to a woman who is keeping her options open until her wedding day, then, by golly, I’ll have to tell her that she’s wrong, too. Just ’cause you’re a doctor doesn’t mean you’re always right, you know.
So instead of insulting me for telling you the truth about how men think, maybe you should listen to what an actual MAN has to say about commitment. And if you don’t believe me, try this experiment: round up every man you know and ask him if he’d propose to a woman who is NOT his girlfriend. Lemme know how it goes.
Clare says
Since posting my above comment, I have read Rori Raye’s work, and I must say, I ADORE her concepts about connecting to your man through being authentic about your feelings. Her concepts about being feminine, being in your receptive energy and being able to make yourself happy regardless of what a man does, is gorgeous too. Basically, her work is great for women, and shows a really wise understanding of women.
Until you get to the circular dating argument. I cannot get on board with this concept. To me, it ruins her other great work. For one thing, as Evan rightly points out, breaking exclusivity and dating other people is cheating. I cannot understand the need to go that far. Why can’t you just use Rori Raye’s tools of expressing your feelings about what you are unhappy with to your man, and if that doesn’t work, breaking up with him?
For another thing, YOU are allowed to circular date, the guy is NOT. She makes this very clear. He has to remain faithful to you, but you don’t owe him this obligation. I don’t know how this can be justified as anything other than an unacceptable double standard, and all the best of LUCK trying to get any guy to agree to it. Also, at what point (or not) do the relationships with these other guys you are dating become sexual?
Finally, as Amy rightly points out, what happens once you are married? If you are unhappy in your relationship then, then circular dating is no longer an option.
To me, circular dating is a superfluous part of the entire model. Sure, encourage women to go out and do things which make them happy, encourage them to hold out for a real commitment, but to carry on several relationships at once? I don’t think most women can emotionally handle it, and I don’t think most men would stick around for it.
Lynn says
Evan, thank heaven for your sanity and frankness. I can`t believe this concept of circular dating, I would never stand for it in a man, so why should I do it to him? If I don`t like what I am getting from a man, I just leave, full stop. Why would I want to blackmail a man into being with me? There seem to be a lot of very insecure women around. Sorry.
Dagaz says
@mezzanine.
Well, why not. Circular dating might work out perfectly. And woman will get married, after all. IF her only goal is to get married, period. you know, the whole nine yards: ring on the finger, wedding, honey moon and some pants walking in the house, so she can point out and to proclaim: see, I AM married!
Oh boy. she will get the same man: extremely unsecured, full of fears and desperate to get married, just for the sake of it.
because this circular dating is only for this type of women. and it will naturally weed out confident and easy-going men, because for them seeing the circular-dating woman is the biggest turn-off.
Oh yes, she will get married, i guarantee it, if she wants only that.
Fusee says
When I learned about this concept of circular dating I could not believe that it was seriously recommended to modern occidental marriage-minded women.
If we’re talking about casually talking to several men until deciding for the most promising one, a special man to investigate a relationship with, then sure! However I highly doubt that any reasonnable man will want to marry a woman who would be dating multiple people, regardless whether she has sex with them or not.
I would actually be wary of the decision-making process of a man who would desire to unite in marriage without some in-depth committed courtship beforehand (with sex or no sex). I think it is impossible to build the foundations of an emotionally and physically monogamous marriage within an emotionally or physically non-committed courtship. After all, even in the most conservative Christian circles, a courtship period where the man and the woman are exclusive precedes a proposal and a wedding.
Is a wedding all you are after? Then, go for it if it were offered to you in such circumstances. But if you’re looking to build a solid, healthy and happy marriage that has a chance to last for life, it is going to take much more than receiving a proposal out of desperation of losing a “deal” (“deal” consisting of a woman claiming love but dating other people).
Look, I can relate to the desire of avoiding non-comittal men. I’ve explained in other threads that I do not have time and energy for more trial-and-error/dead-end LTRs, investing the most precious years of my life with men who would rather stick to the status quo than challenging themselves and outgrow their commitment fears. The thing is, there are more effective ways to avoid such scenarios than by following this ridiculously unwise circular dating advice. Let yourself be known, communicate your needs with clarity from the beginning, focus on exploring your partner in depth and encourage him to do the same, but be purposeful and limit the courtship to a reasonnable but shorter period of time and do not cohabite prior to marriage.
One thing is certain to me: there is no way to create a solid, healthy, and happy marriage without a period of exclusive exploration and building of foundations. There is no way to build such marriage without being an authentic and devoted partner, without the willingness to be vulnerable, and without taking the risk of being hurt if the courtship ends instead of leading to marriage. This is what a courtship is all about: finding out if both partners are compatible for life. The answer might be a “no”. This would be sad but much better than a divorce.
This whole circular dating thing seems to be stemming from fear and/or desperation to me. Not the best ground to build the foundations of a life-long marriage…
mezzanine says
@ Evan Marc Katz. If you really think your experience, in which no man has ever proposed to a woman before sex, is relevant to a discussion about progressive relationship philosophies, you have a much longer way to go than I thought when i posted my comment the other day. Open your mind. Read some history.
Your ideas aren’t conducive to helping people develop better relationships, whereas Rori’s and Dr. Allen’s are. I have to wonder if that’s even an interest of yours. I fault myself for assuming so when I first visited this blog. You seem more interested in maintaining the status quo, which just so happens at the moment to favor men’s interests – which is exactly why radical ideas like Rori’s are so popular.
But congratulations on your blog traffic, that’s where your talent can be seen, The rest is just nonsense, and will remain nonsense until you open your eyes, and grow a larger perspective.
Bye now.
Evan Marc Katz says
Dear Mezzanine, I’m afraid you’re suffering from reading comprehension problems. Nowhere did I say that men have never proposed to women before having sex. I said men don’t propose to women who aren’t their EXCLUSIVE GIRLFRIENDS. And if you’re “circular dating” while he’s faithful and trying to figure out if he wants to marry you, you’re probably undermining the relationship and not going to get a ring. The challenge remains: go find me a man who proposed to a woman who was not his girlfriend.
As to your other specious claims about my ideas not helping people develop better relationships? Well, I’ve got over 1000 reader testimonials in my inbox that would indicate otherwise.
Your statement about the status quo “favoring” men only further illustrates your bias and blindness. Dating doesn’t favor men. It favors people who are confident, self-aware and have genuine self-esteem. If you’re a woman with all three of these things, you will have no trouble finding a committed man. If you do not have these traits, you will probably find that the status quo favors men’s interests, or some such bunk.
I wish you the best of luck, no matter what, and would encourage you to continue to read my blog/newsletter for free so you can learn what men think from a man’s point of view. Rori is wonderful, but the one thing she is not and can never be – is a better judge of what men think than I am.
Maggie Ram says
Well, there seem to be some lunatics on this thread (@Mezannine)
Anyway, I have read this concept of taking the relationship one step back from Dr. Grey, but in reality, it is just stopping being bf/gf and going back to just dating. I personally tried this once and it is just a slow death- a breakup for cowards. It is better to grow a spine and end it up. If the guy is serious he will try to get back with you. If not, you retained your dignity- at least there is not this feeling of “I continued giving this guy my time and he did not take the initiative to step things back up”. Because let’s not sugar coat it, it is an ultimatum- he knows it and you know it. Ugh. Regarding the other concept of just making more time for other things “dating yourself” or whatever- why use such a misnomer and make it so confusing? sounds more like an attempt to brand a technique that is really not innovative at all, just common sense.
Clare says
@ Fusee
I agree with you. Communication, communication, communication. In my experience, sincere, skilfull and diplomatic communication is hands down the most effective thing in any relationship, this circular dating thing just seems so unnecessary and goes too far.
I can certainly understand the intentions behind it. And like you, I can CERTAINLY understand the frustrations of waiting around for a non-committal man, and would never want to go there myself. But the way through this is by being strong, being your own advocate for your own needs and choosing guys really carefully, not by shopping your time and attention around.
Sorry Rori, I love ya, but I just don’t see it.
ashley says
These days, Rori Raye’s CDing seems to be criticized a lot. I’m not her fan, but i still think she has a point. Evan, you compared marriage-seeking and CDing woman to a man who wants to get laid in the first night. I think it’s a good comparison, how long would you advise this man to wait exclusively for sex? Two years? How long could you wait for sex, exclusively? Ok, if a man thinks she is the “one”, he can wait for days, months; but years, exclusively? So you advice women to wait their men at least two years till they make their mind. For women over 30, the need for commitment feels as urgent as the need for sex; yet many dating coaches, a lots of men, and unfortunately women blame women for this natural need; they advice women “not to be desperate, not to be needy, be understanding etc”. How long a man could have been understanding, not desperate, not needy without having sex for years? Would you be still confident, secure if your wife haven’t slept with you for 2 years? You may say that it’s not the same; and the need for commitment is not an urgent need like sex. Well, for some women, if not all, it’s urgent due to their biological clocks and they want to be married “yesterday”. Let’s assume that as a man you waited your “one” to decide having sex with you exclusively for 2 years patiently, and finally she agreed to have sex with you, would you feel satisfied? Won’t you prefer a woman who enjoys sex and wants to have sex with you in the first place, who doesn’t make you wait for it at least two years? I definitely think that Rori’s advice is empowering for women, who don’t like to wait for their boyfriends to make their minds for years, which is not a secure place for women. A lot to ask from women, wait exclusively for it at least to years, don’t be needy meanwhile, well, in the end he may or may not ask for serious commitment, you may or may not waste your precious years waiting. My cousin waited his marriage oriented boyfriend 4,5 years to propose, he couldn’t put his act together, she decided to keep her options open and dumped him 6 months ago, now she is with an another man, who is ready to walk his talk, and they are already making marriage arrangements. Well, when a man is serious about and ready for commitment, he looks forward to it and won’t delay it for 2 years.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry, Ashley. There’s a big difference between waiting two years to have sex and two years to get a diamond ring. I think it’s difficult to suggest otherwise.
You seem to be able to consider things from your perspective, but not his. So let me just give you some facts to contrast with your feelings. The three biggest predictors of divorce are:
1) People who get married too quickly. You know, like the Rori fans who think that if a man “just knows” he should propose in eight months. Yeah, those don’t end well when both people discover who their partners really are after three years.
2) People who break up and make up. Rocky courtships lead to rocky marriages.
3) People who wait a really loooong time before getting married – because it means that one or more of them didn’t want to get married.
However, if you understand things from a more objective perspective, you’ll see that while 4.5 years IS a long time before proposing, 2.5 years is quite normal.
So if you freak out that he wants to be SURE before buying you a ring and committing to you for life, you’re likely to sabotage a great relationship. All out of fear and your failure to understand HIS timetable. Ignore my entreaties at your own risk. But don’t tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Because I do. You just don’t want to hear it.
ashley says
Dear Evan,
Thank you for your prompt response, which I was not expecting. I feel sorry that you felt that I was telling you that you don’t know what you’re talking about. I could be wrong, but I was trying to tell my opinion and may be playing the devil’s advocate a bit, I had no intention of questioning your skills as a dating coach. If you don’t want to hear different opinions you can also ignore them or close the comments section. You’re right about that I was considering things from my perspective, not his. I value your point of view and most of your advice, as a male dating coach, that’s why I’m reading your articles; but sometimes I feel that you don’t understand female perspective and I don’t agree with all of your advices, which doesn’t mean that I say that you don’t know what you are talking about, I just cannot follow any advice blindly without questioning. But I didn’t like your attitude implying not to question your advice or skills as a dating coach or shut up.
The problem is there are so many women, who ignore their own needs at the expense of their boyfriends, in fact it’s in feminine nature to consider “his perspective” first. So you advise women to ignore their own needs and put his first, when the problem for most women is that they are already sacrificing too much for the sake of relationship. Of course the diamond ring is not a “biological need” like sex, but it is closely connected to female’s “biological clock”, it’s a feminine need. Ignoring your own biological clock and giving the priority to your boyfriend’s timetable is not always easy when your clock is ticking, that was what I was trying to say. You’re right about that acting out of fear and making hasty decisions is not a good thing; but dating two or more years itself don’t make a rock-solid relationship. I could be wrong, I’m not an expert and I might be doomed to the singlehood for not followind your advice, but I still think men are more like taxis (yes, it’s from Sex and the City episode), they got married when their commitment button is on. If their commitment button is off, it doesn’t really matter how long you wait.
marymary says
Evan
This post is golden.
If I am allowed to circular date until the wedding day, I assume the man is too. I WOULD NOT BE COOL WITH THAT! So why should he be?But we don’t multiple date in the UK anyway, so I guess it’s academic.
I like what you say about slowing down. We put more thought into buying a car than we do our marriage partners. There is NO substitute for time. Chemistry and sex don’t cut it. In fact, you probably need to wait for that chemisty to fizzle out a little and take a good hard look at the relationship in the cold light of day. Do you still like what you see? Is there something substantial there?
And, yes, do not date from a fearful standpoint. If you cannot STAND the idea that the relationship may fail and you’ll be “alone” (though there’s nothing more lonely than being in a bad relationship) then you need to get your house in order. You have to be vulnerable, you have to risk getting hurt. There is no way round it. Rori can’t guarantee you won’t get hurt. Evan can’t guarantee it. But I think Evan is proposing your Best Chance. Protect yourself from vulnerability and you protect yourself from love. And, no, I’m not proposing stupid risks. if he’s not treating you right (or you’re not treating him right) it’s time to bail.
Rather, choose well and let him be who he is.
And it’s ridiculous to suggest that the solution to a relationship problem is the insertion of a third party. It only multiplies the dysfunction. Don’t do it to yourself!
LS says
This was VERY interesting to me. I’ve actually checked out a couple of Rori’s products, and was actually very impressed. I remember when I heard the Circular Dating idea, and it threw up a red flag. Rather than dismissing the idea entirely, I decided to apply it in a way that I am comfortable with for myself, since really the idea behind Circular Dating is to help you know that men find you desirable as a confidence booster.
So rather than actually dating any other men, I practiced opening myself up in public — making eye contact with men and smiling at them. Some of them talk to me, some of them don’t. Some of them say ridiculous pick up lines to me. Just knowing that I had the power to possibly date someone at any time was empowering. And yes, my man noticed. Big time. Maybe it was a certain vibe. Maybe it all ties in to being confident and secure.
That being said, I do love much of Rori’s advice. I also think Evan is right on when it comes to a man’s version of Circular Dating. Men can be just as insecure, jealous, and needy as women sometimes. Regardless of who’s advice you take on this, the one thread that carries through every relationship advice expert out there is to stop being obsessive, find some hobbies, and be more relaxed and confident. Love yourself first, and your man will find it contagious.
Mary says
I agree!! I was dating a kind and gentle older mam who talked about a cruse and moving into his home next year when my daughter moves on to college..he bought me a beautiful necklaceas a toke of his love..and ased that I return his offers witj a promise of exclusive dating privlidges..I thought I wanted that and said no that until he provided me with assurance that this was jeading to marriage I could not..the advice of Cdating…well he freeked out..felt that I was never prepared to comitt to him and I was playing with his feeling..place a dagger in his heart..now the damage has been done amd he doesnt trust me..he believes I am playing mind games and feels he does not want to put his heart and his life in the ” hands” of someone who cant comitt to the first step of being exclusive…I am now quietly waiting to see if he ever will come around..I am dating otjers but none feel so right as he did…I just asked for too much tpo soon
Maura says
Thank you, Evan. I wholeheartedly agree. I love much of what Rori has to say, but CD never quite sat right with me. I actually casually mentioned that I’d read about the concept of CD to my boyfriend (definitely not as a threat), and he looked a bit horrified. We’ve been together over a year, and he’s the man I want to marry eventually. A tiny part of me is anxious, but in the meantime of whatever happens, we are cultivating a beautiful relationship, supporting each other emotionally and having fun. The thought of dating anyone else, especially to inadvertently put pressure on him, gives me a sad and empty feeling. So, no to that!
Misty says
I specifically remember Rori saying in one of her programs – because it hit home to me and changed my views on circular dating – that if you find a good man who you care about, who wants what you want (even if he may not be certain yet that he wants to marry you, he is marriage minded and committed to you, the relationship, and putting in the time and effort to see where it goes) and who is moving the relationship forward, showing up for you, and meeting your needs – that you should NOT continue to date other men if he asks for exclusivity, and you have both clarified what that means to you.
She does not say that circular dating is about fear, or keeping your options open if a good man isn’t fast enough. It’s if he begins withdrawing, NOT showing up for you, in general NOT “being a good boyfriend” as you put it, Evan – that’s when you may decide to return to “just dating” as you defined it. She doesn’t say dump the guy completely if you love him but he isn’t meeting your needs. Be honest, tell him how you feel, ask him what he thinks, if he’d like to resolve it. If he does not, leave a door open for him if he wants to walk through it, but move on with your life. He has the option of deciding if he DOES want to step it up and put more effort into the relationship, meet your needs, etc. or if he wants to “dump you” himself and move on.
I agree with what you said, Evan. But I think you and Rori are on the same page, not in conflict at all. She doesn’t say cheat on a good boyfriend in a committed relationship that is progressing. Going back to dating is about taking care of yourself when he is NOT being a good boyfriend or the relationship isn’t going anywhere. She’s just a little less harsh in leaving the step it up option to him instead of slamming the door with the “dump him” advice. I think it’s up to the woman (or man in a similar situation) to decide whether she dumps him outright because he simply doesn’t have what it takes, or whether she both loves him enough and believes he has it in him to be the man she needs that she is willing to not cut it off completely, but allow him the time and freedom of choice option on his own timetable.
In dating, you do have to be confident, value yourself, and look for someone who can and will meet your needs. Because in a committed relationship or marriage you need to trust that the person will do that at that point, and then put loving your partner first. I think Rori’s programs are actually all about respecting men and treating them well, but coming from a place of love, respect, and high regard for yourself. The goal is 2 emotionally healthy people building a healthy relationship, choosing to be together because they want to be, and because they mutually value love and commitment.
stacy says
I agree with you Evan and I’m glad I stumbled on this discussion because I too found the Circular Dating concept quite troubling on my conscience. That being said, I do believe that Rori Raye means well and there may be some good in the CD concept. As for those that comment on the site, well that is a different story. So much so, I don’t read readers comments on Rori’s site because often the comments have nothing to do with the articles. So take heart, you’ve got the right crowd!
crystal2 says
I think Misty (256) makes excellent points about the positive things Rori promotes. First let me say I have had several long successful relationships including a marriage and I’m in a lot of agreement with Evan of CD. Not only could I not even get to the point of kissing one guy and still having coffee with another. And I’ve met many men who feel that same way, my own boyfriends, ex-husband, and male friends. I agree taking a step back in a relationship is not cheating, that “cheating” and “integrity” are inflammatory terms. I don’t know how “open cheating” even means anything because the dishonesty part is cheating and if it’s open, it’s honest. Though not healthy for someone who wants a commitment to pretend to tolerate. I agree it’s better to just break up. The 2 women I know who are doing CD are the most insecure people lacking in self-esteem who have been accepting crumbs and ignoring red flags from the beginning. For them, it’s a pretense of not caring when there’s no getting around that they do.
So overall I really like your thinking, Evan. I was just noticing what seems like a “male” reaction to Ashley (249, 251) although I think you are really out to help women. It’s not the opinions or facts but the tone. I thought Ashley’s comparison of the man’s urgent desire for sex with the woman’s urgent biological clock was really original and heartfelt and actually humorous and charming and not totally wrong. I’ll bet she knew it wasn’t an exact comparison. I mean, you probably appreciate a large, diverse readership but did it occur to you to notice anything positive in that post? “Point taken” or whatever. And maybe not jump to statistics. I didn’t feel she was attacking you but she was right to feel sort of attacked. Maybe being reminded of the vulnerability of needing something so badly from another person (welcome to the human race) hit a nerve?
With that little comparison, Ashley hinted at inequality between women and men, even though you are living an equal relationship apparently and you bring up equality because either party can decide to leave or stay. That’s all true. But in the bigger picture, and you haven’t gotten there yet in your life and never will be where any woman can find herself… women’s childbearing and child-related roles or even latent capacity, really does create a very real threat of inequality LATER in marriage or rather after a marriage with kids ends. Just the huge reality of that, even if it’s abstract now or you think it won’t happen in your case, is symbolic of an astronomical (economical, emotional, practical, sexual, life-altering) vulnerability for women that no upstanding nice guy can take away. It sometimes comes through in seemingly flawed examples. But needing sex vs needing commitment in very needy ways really does relate, I think.
Also, it is WORLD WIDE web so I think cultural discussions are relevant, why not? Including going back some decades in the US, or what different religions have done like no sex before engagement or whatever – however antiquated that seems. Also, I’m sure the whole 2-3 year thing is true, the scientific measuring of when infatuation wears off. But let’s remember maybe sometimes the exceptions like the quick marriages that work forever, might be more than flukes. Sometimes I think bigger things like previous lifetimes could be at work. In those cases success might mean something totally different. I’m probably at the older end of the age scale here and two important relationships of mine had some element from I have no idea where and for one thing they didn’t become marriage. I knew the significance to my life of both these men and felt I knew them from week one and they did too. Not successful in terms of leading to marriage and off all the statistics, yet profound and loving and essential and functional in their own ways. Which is to say in an irrational feminine way maybe the focus on 18 exact months here, 3 months there, X is X and Y is Y damn it – maybe details are not the end-all and be-all, valid as they are.
I also agree with almost all of Karl’s points but I found myself recoiling from the angry repetitive tone that wants to just stamp out the fine points of what a woman says if she disagrees! Citing things like a research paper, confronting the smallest statements like it’s war. I don’t think right or wrong excuses that. Maybe we could take the opportunity to be kind even in disagreement. Everybody’s doing their best.
Kat says
I was confused about the circular dating topic on Rori’s site. I live in LV,Nv. I am in my early 30’s and I look 20’s. I was going to try circular dating but every guy I have met wants sex so I decided not to do it. I am just not really attracted to a lot of men I see. I see a MUCH older guy and have been for a few years and I am considering maybe living out the rest of my days alone(like other older relatives whose husbands died years earlier than them) or never married female relatives. I enjoy seeing my BF, he is the first guy I have ever been in love with. An older female friend at a church I used to attend at the time told This woman pastor I did not know. who supposedly is blessed with the gift of second sight that i was “fornicating” and I got some bad advice from her as she was still bitter about her husband leaving her for another woman (she told this long story). She embarrassed me in front of others belittling me and the guy I am seeing! I was angry and decided I learned my lesson and I don’t really trust anymore. I do not live with my BF, I appreciate this article that you have posted on your site! Thanks!
Deborah says
Dating is for what? I would think dating should be courtship to marriage, which means exactly what you are saying. Of course if there is no ring, you are free to date, and I see her point because I came up with it too. You aren’t married, so you aren’t committed, so you don’t have to “play marriage”. I am against “playing marriage”, as in, moving in with, having babies with, sharing bills with someone whom could at the drop of a hat leave if they felt like it, or I could! I mean, what is that?
But i don’t agree that dating, as if it stays all unserious until you say your vows makes sense either.
To me, dating can’t exactly be what it used to be either, because for a while, there were communities, and people knew each other, so, dating would be a more serious step up from friendship!
But since people do blind dates a lot (off the internet may as well be blind dating, your have nothing to do with this people in the course of your actual life) I think that people treat dating in gradations. So there is, chatting online (screening), meeting for coffee (1st interview), a date (second interview), then DATING DATING (going out a lot, talking a lot, sex), then going out with each other dating (often treated like a mock marriage), then there is exclusive dating (super duper like a marriage without the actual vows), then a big long sustain (dating seriously, in love, a couple), then engagement dating maybe if it works out…then MOVING IN with each other dating…sometimes this comes earlier, and MAYYYYBE a proposal, or else it ends…then real engagement, then actual marriage and everyone flops and relaxes now.
I would just have less classifications. To me, there is meeting, then dating, then engagement then marriage. Friendship first is nice though. It helps to spend a while dating.
But either way, it’s PROGRESSIVE. so yeah I agree!
Deborah says
I also see Rori’s point in that, you don’t want dating to be a big time waster. Again, I came up with this idea too, and what it sprouted from was…you want to increase your odds. If you date a bunch of people, and don’t get too tied in with one just yet, you can find a good person a lot quicker than one – then get a broken heart, then guy #2, then get a broken heart, then guy #3 it goes well for 5 years, then guy #4 it goes well for 6, then guy # 5 it goes well for 8 years, then….wait a sec now I’m an old maid! omg none turned out! (That’s me right now.). But if I doubled up, I wouldn’t have had a broken heart because I’d be too busy going on dates and evualuating guys to get too emotionally involved with someone who isn’t going to work out. Instead I’m using my head! But the problem is…that’s like no fun at all! That’s like dating without life. that’s like Spock and then some! Like…you WANT to have feelings for crying out loud! sooo, yeah in a way it could be good, if you can keep it up! but you have to suppress yourself from getting excited over anyone and just date like you are doing Math, or accounting, or…something really dead and boring.
Sparkling Emerald says
I’m on Rori’s subscription list, and while some of her ideas are good, I just can’t pay the big bucks for her full fledged program(not only because I don’t have big bucks) but because it seems like flat out manipulation. Even tho she claims it is not about games, manipulation or ultimatums, it iS !
The idea of using men for “free therapy” also rubs me the wrong way. Yes, I know a lot of men use women, but I guess I just can not get on board with some sort of tit-for-tat and use men. (just would rather dump the users & losers and find a great guy)
There also seems to be desperation in her advice to date 3 men & just go for the whichever asks you out first, instead of trying to focus in one that you really are feeling it for. Seems like she is just saying marry anyone who will have you, without regards for how you feel about him. The goal here seems to be marriage to any Tom, Dick or Harry who asks, not to find someone to love.
Shawnee says
I’m a devoted follow of Rori Raye, as well as you, Evan; however, I must say that I agree with you on this one without a doubt. CDing when you have a boyfriend is most definitely cheating… No if’s, and’s, or but’s about it! I always like to call a spade a spade, and this is what I call a downright manipulation tactic!!!
Caitlin says
Aw, I am a woman and I think this is a beautiful post. I agree with everything you said. Thanks for sharing 🙂
Vicki says
How is Rori Raye’s concept of circular dating different from Dr. Diana Kirschner’s “program of 3”, outlined in her book Love in 90 Days? It sounds very similar….
SN says
Excellent rebuttal. It needs to be a two-way street, no doubt. End of story…which you explained extremely well with examples, similar to what I’ve experienced many time …or have seen others in the similar scenarios.
Glad you did not cower. The truth needs to be told without mincing words. There are tons of fantastic women, (like me!) and a lot of fantastic guys, who aren’t asking firmly enough for what they need, or are meeting the wrong matches, or are thinking they can force a one-way relationship. It’s not working, and yes, we should stop bashing each other and get on with learning to understand each other on a deeper level.
Sparkling Emerald says
I have been getting a little bit suspicious of RR’s advice. I get her e-mails, and lately the e-mails come in as being from “Rory Raye” and then they are signed by “Christian Carter” another dating coach. Sounds like they are either the same person operating under diff names (except I have seen videos of them both, perhaps one is an actor playing a ficiticious character) or they both work under the same marketing umbrella, and there was a big screw up with their automated e-mail program.
Also, as much as I tire of the mating dance, I just can’t bring myself to buy into her notion of using men as therapy. Using people is wrong in my view, no matter which gender is doing the using. A woman could be pining away for an uncommitted male and then decide to use another male as “therapy”. Her “therapist” could end up being a great guy who wanted to give her all his love, only to discover that she didn’t care for him at all, and that basically he was nothing more than a distraction in her “friend zone” to take her mind off some commitaphobe who has no intention of loving her ever.
Evan Marc Katz says
@SE “They both work under the same marketing umbrella, and there was a big screw up with their automated e-mail program.” Ding, ding, ding.
RustyLH says
I have read some of her blogs and statements to women making comments, and it definitely seems to be all about the woman, what’s good for her and what she wants. As result it is very hard to read the comments there anymore. Things like women setting very restrictive time frames for guys to call. Not answering any texts, at all, etc. But then, it is truth in advertising. How to get the relationship you want. Not a relationship you both will want. As a result, I visited it today and see many of the same women making the same complaint as they did 3 years ago when I spent some time reading blogs and comments. I will admit that some of the things she writes seem to be good advice. But it seems something in the overall is off.
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty – I agree that some of the advice to women is all about me, me, me and advocates trickery and manipulation to get what you want from men (marriage and kids) I especially hated “The Rules” , I bought it used on Amazon for curiosity’s sake and feel dumber for having read it. I can’t get on board with RR’s circular dating or using men as therapy either.
But there is also a lot of advice out there to women with the focus on nothing but man pleasing and how women are so messed up and need to be fixed, and telling them to basically try to make themselves PERFECT, otherwise expect to die lonely.
Maybe I am just a starry eyed niave idealist, but I think male female relationships would be better if the emphasis was taken off of “me, me, me” and the focus was back on “we, we, we” It seems to have turned into a battle with each one trying to gain the “upper hand”, instead of two people trying to create an even handed relationship where both can flourish, and mutually meet most of each others needs, in a relationship that is satisfying to BOTH.
On the other side are the MRA and PUA sites that tell men they are entitled to fuck any woman who crosses their path. Women who say “no” are bitches, women who say “yes” are sluts. They encourage men to “hate fuck” women, and they talk about women as if they are the root cause of all that is evil in the world.
Extreme example of a MRA incident, but not surprising considering the hatred they spread against women:
http://bellejar.ca/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-and-men-who-hate-women/
Rusty – You go on and on about all the “sins” of women, but you never even acknowledge that men can act self entitled, especially when it comes to sex. Have you never read or heard of MRA or PUA ? Or are you an ardent follower, and think that’s how it should be ?
Clare says
SE #267
Whilst I do actually have great respect for Rori Raye’s advice, having found it immensely helpful personally, I have to agree with you about the incongruity with Christian Carter’s e-mails?
I myself find Christian Carter’s e-mails to be endlessly frustrating, as I have found every one of them to be a great deal of waffle about the “problem” with not a single scrap of tangible advice in sight.
Sparkling Emerald says
Clare #269 – What I HATE about CC’s e-mails is that when you click on a link you are taken to a video of him rambling on and on and on an on and saying nothing . There is no way to fast forward over it. I unsubscribed to his newsletter ‘cuz he was so annoying. I got a little tired of coming every night to e-mails basically telling me everything is my fault. I hope RR tells her marketing people to fix the big screw up. I wouldn’t want my name to be linked to his if I was in that business.
Evan Marc Katz says
What they both do very well is give you a hint of advice that makes you buy their products. Have you bought MY products? 🙂
Sparkling Emerald says
EMK – #271 Yes, I have bought WHD & FTOO from you. Nothing from RR or CC. Their “hints of advice” sound like lots & lots of fluff w/o much substance. I bought your stuff from listening to one of your free audio’s. It sounded like some concrete SOLID advice, not the usual “bat your eyelashes and manipulate a man with your feminine wiles” nonsense. And it was solid advice. Your “how to” on writing a profile and e-mails was spot on. I got better results right away. (However, I am once again on hiatus, gearing up for the property settlement, an out of town trip, and taking care of a sick Dad, — Kinda hard to be sweet and feminine with all that stuff going on)
The only other advice I ever paid for online was when I was reading every “How to Save your Marriage” blog. I wasted money on some worthless drivel on how to get him back. But I guess it wasn’t a complete waste of money, because as I was reading it, I realized i didn’t even WANT him back any more, and then I started reading dating advice instead of how to save a marriage advice.
HannahJ says
Mezzanie might not have been very kind to you, Evan, but she’s right. Rori Raye’s advice is progressive, and raise the tatus quo of women. She exposes the reality of a woman’s worth! I say this based on personal experience: I was proposed to after 2 years of regular dating, without having ever been a “girlfriend”. Dating around was just fine for me, but I preferred to be a wife. I did not have to give this man a commitment in order to get one from him.
Rori doesn’t advise to date while committed, she advises not to pretend you’re committed when, in reality, either party could stop seeing the other. I recommend everyone in the dating pool to stick with very traditional values, ie courtship.
Emily says
hmm.. I was waiting for this.. an actual testimonial. Hoorray! On an intrinsic level Rori Raye’s advice and how you dated, Hannah ,makes sense to me. Of course many women would say the boyfriend-girlfriend method ie. dating exclusively without engagement , like what Evan proposes, also works out. However, I feel that the pitfalls , heartaches and failures for boyfriend-girlfriend dating is becoming epidemic now in this modern age and perhaps going back to old-fashioned principles, while men might balk at it and not like it, might be the way things ought to be
Charlotte says
I myself couldn’t possibly date other men if I had a steady boyfriend. For one thing, I wouldn’t want to “lead” the other guys on. So you go out on a date with Mr. Nice guy who brings you flowers and takes you out to a nice dinner….he thinks he’s met the girl of his dreams….there’s only one problem…you’ve got a boyfriend he doesn’t know about. How does that work?
Having said that, I do think there’s a double standard. I was “exclusive” to a man for 4 years. I was divorced with a child, so I wasn’t chomping at the bit to be married…but it was discussed between us. This man treated me like gold. He was absolutely crazy in love with me. I couldn’t have asked for a better man in my life and I couldn’t believe my good fortune. At least until that fateful day I found out about 2 other girlfriends, the many women he was sleeping with and the shocking revelation, he was also trying to get back with his ex-wife….all at the same time, he was making plans for the future with me..the woman he loved! Believe me when I say..I DID’T HAVE A CLUE! I dumped him immediately. But the most shocking thing was what a male friend said to me some weeks later when we were having lunch and discussing this terrible man. My friend said to me..”Let’s face it..it’s not like he had a ring on your finger” WTF! Is that how men think? We weren’t engaged so he can see other women! This isn’t the first time I’ve heard comments from men like this. So maybe Rori just thinks us women should think the same as men.
Pasqualina says
@ Shawnee #267 & Evan —
I have purchased products here and from Rori. As an intelligent, open minded, adult female; I get to pick and choose what works for me. I like a lot of the Siren teachings. I also study, repeatedly, Why He Disappeared.
Having never ‘dated’ in my entire life as both Evan & Karl are saying men define it, Rori’s CD teachings are helpful. It’s not worked very well for me to date exclusively too early. So I’m trying something new.
How far it will go, I’m not sure at this point. I plan on continuing to learn and grow with help from both Rori & Evan.
There is a lot of emotion from both sides evident on both sites. Perhaps the reality no one expert has 100% of very dating experience for 100% of the global population nailed down?
Rose says
From what I have read R R doesn’t advocate cding why having a boyfriend. She says don’t be a girlfrilfriend if marraige is what you want. You date as many men as you want until someone comes along is a match and offers you whay you want.
Or until you get the committiment you want. Cding is to find out what you want. And to see who is a match.
So if you want an exclusive for now boyfriend and to be an exclusive for now girlfriend then you are a match. But don’t kid yourself that it means any more than that. She recommends being a girlfriend or boyfriend when young and in school/ college etc as a way of learning how to be in a relationship and having sex in a safe a loving way. But not for older people who are ready for and want life long partnership.
Julia says
@Rose
You know people don’t casually date 8 people at one time then get a marriage proposal, right? Life isn’t a Jane Austen novel. You get married after you’ve mutually gotten to know one another over a couple of years. Are suitors showing up at your door asking your father is he can stay a spell? Circle dating is really silly unless you do it when you are single until you are in a relationship. But a relationship isn’t an engagement.
Renee Wade says
Hi Evan,
Just coming over to say hi and thanks for the comment on my blog. This post of yours is straight forward and obviously written with women’s best intentions in mind.
Thank You for contributing to women and sharing thoughts on Circular Dating from the perspective of an honest man.
I believe women can learn a lot from considering and thinking about your advice to simply be vulnerable…circular dating SEEMS to be an attempt to cover that vulnerability to the right man, in select contexts in which it is used (eg: in the case of when it is used on a steady relationship with a good man, with good intentions for his future and the woman’s future).
All the best,
Renee.
jessica says
I agree and disagree. I think if you are in a relationship and you agree you are both moving in a symbiotic direction than it would be silly to disrupt a healthy progressing relationship. However, if a guy “doesn’t know” then he should be fine with a potential candidate dating around. If a woman is a potential candidate and not “the one”, a woman is silly to wait around for him to figure it out. I think a woman moving in with a man before knowing is also crazy… and that is after many stupid attempts personally. Before the sexual revolution, a woman dated until she was engaged and I have heard strories about women who wrote the “other man” to let him know she couldn’t continue to see him 2 weeks before the date. Difference, Men expected this. My mother tells me how she had a moment where she knew two men were likely to propose and she had to decide which if either was the one she wanted to be with. One of them was my father. On the flip side, I have been married and its doesnt live up to it if the foundation isn’t there. I would prefer a healthy, loving, supportive relationship with a personal commitment over a ring and a ceremony. But until I find someone who has the same idea and desire to be with me that I do him, I will continue to date around…and the men will know it up front.
Emily Kalidas says
I love your rebuttal! I’ve also been having serious doubts about Rori Cding notion although in my case (being single) it does make a lot of sense BUT as to Cding when you are in a relationship, I don’t think I will ever do that. GOLDEN RULE: do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. I’m sure no girlfriend would like their BF to be Cding so why do it to them? The more sensible approach Rori mentions is DATING YOURSELF and that could definitely work when in a relationship. I think her point is just making sure you keep your focus on your goal (MARRIAGE) and don’t lose yourself in a relationship (feel helpless, analyze too much etc) and the way to do that is simply spend time doing what you love WITHOUT dating other men. If I were a man, I would be more attracted to someone whose happiness didn’t depend on me rather than someone whose world revolved around me.SO in the case of those who aren’t in any serious relationship, CDATING is indeed a must.
KR says
Here’s the issue – you and Rori disagree about what commitment is and isn’t. You think a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship is committed. Therefore, you would be enraged if your girlfriend – who you think of as committed to you/belonging to you – decided to date other men. You state that men and women are equal in a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship – that men are trying out the commitment to see if they want to make it permanent and women are doing the same thing. Rori, on the other hand, is saying until you are on the verge of engaged/engaged/married – to use her words, until the man says “I’m ready and you’re the one I want” and means it, there actually is no commitment. That seems more true/honest to me, personally. If a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship is committed then why is there marriage? According to you, I should allow a man ownership/exclusivity, sex and loyalty for years so he can make sure I’m the one he wants – and if I don’t want to do that I have low self-esteem/there’s something wrong with me. But from my perspective as a woman, why would I want to take literally years away from my youth/childbearing age to give someone the chance to “check me out”? I could be meeting other men who share my understanding that marriage is not the end of a long, committed relationship – its the beginning. You mutually choose to start a genuinely committed adventure with a person you love and know is amazing. You become allies on a journey and put your faith in God. You *can* fall in love with someone, know their character and know they are the amazing ONE after dating them extensively – you don’t need to give them your whole life so they can “try it out”. Every man who has ever dated me has told me they knew I was a loyal, trustworthy person because of how I treated them and other people. They learned by dating me that my word was good, and that I was positive, loving, joyful and interesting. My husband chose me as his wife after a long period of dating me…and yes, before we got engaged we did become what you would define as girlfriend and boyfriend – but it was only for a short period because we already knew each other, were in love and headed for a committed relationship. At this point we’ve been happily married many years now.
In summary, I submit to you that in your view the boyfriend should get loyalty, love, sex and his girlfriend’s years/youth and the girlfriend should be fine with that because she’s getting the same from him…except that really ISN’T equal like you want to say it is. You are forgetting that the girlfriend only really has about 20 childbearing years give-or-take, while the boyfriend has many more. That’s what you aren’t seeing. Its so easy for you to say “give the guy a couple of years, then dump him; I know its hard but its what you have to do”. Sorry, but I don’t. What I do have to do is be myself & be true to my values – doing just that has led to a wonderful marriage & life in my case.
Emily says
Thank you KR for sharing your story!! I have tried exclusively dating a guy and all it led me was years invested when I could have been open to meeting other more suitable partners. If a man wants you, he should step up to the plate and not be intimidated that you are dating others. If anything, I would think his desire would increase, knowing that you’re not going to sit around and wait for him to decide if he wants to propose or not. I am glad that you are testifying that this is indeed what worked out for you!!
mz says
I think I misunderstood what CDing means. I have a nice boyfriend and I respect the boundaries of that agreement but I’ll still smile at someone else or be friendly. I’m not dating someone else… but I could be. I’m loyal by choice not a lack of options. That’s what I thought Rori was getting at.
Shirley says
I recently listened to Rori’s CD theology, and it is misrepresented in your article.
She does not advocate that if you are already in an exclusive relationship with a man that you should suddenly switch gears on him and decide to date other men. I don’t think many would disagree with you that such behavior would be considered on the level of “cheating“.
CD is what you do from the very beginning until you are ready to be exclusive with one man (she says until “you get what you want, whatever that is that for you, warrants being exclusive – for many it is a proposal of marriage). She does not advocate CD till the day before the wedding as you said in one paragraph. She says CD until you agree to be exclusive with one man. If you are engaged, you are exclusive.
The “be a girlfriend/wife” thing has to be taken in context with some discernment. The concept is being only a girlfriend can be a long time of going nowhere. You agree there is a limit where a person needs to decide if a particular relationship is going the distance or its time to move on. If you are clear you are dating with the intention of marriage, and if being a girlfriend is a definite step in that direction, then it is not a bad thing. You are saying you don’t want to be just a girlfriend; you want to be in a relationship headed towards marriage. People in general have trouble with discernment, so while she emphasizes the not a girlfriend thing a lot, and might leave you with the impression it is end-all and be-all, if you partake of the entire learning she offers, you should have a different overall perspective of the meaning.
She is emphasizing women not losing themselves in a man – which is healthy both for women and men. And we all have to take things with a grain of salt and an ounce of discernment, then apply it to ourselves.
Emily says
Yes, Shirley, this makes intrinsic sense to me.
I think if you do CD on a man later on after exclusivity in a relationship then it can be a major turn off to the man, although at the same time, I think if the woman makes it clear, I am dating others because I am not getting a clear commitment from you… until you figure out what you want from me… then a man should not feel like he’s being cheated on. The woman is making it clear that she doesn’t want to close the door on him altogether, but she cannot wait idly by.. it’s pretty much breaking up but saying to the guy she is open to reconcilliation… But, if you make it clear you will be CD until you get what you want EARLY On in the relationship, whether that’s an exlcusive boyfriend or engagement (if you can wait that long to have sex…which is tough.. but maybe what is necessary to clarify a man’s true intention).. then I don’t see how a man could think you are cheating on him.. it’s simply saying, until you are sure you want to marry me, then let’s date without exclusivity… the guy realizes if he wants this woman, he will have to figure out sooner versus later his intentions and make it clear with her.. to me this is how dating should be. A man should prove he wants to be with a woman.. modern dating has screwed up the natural order of things in my opinion
Brenda of Bloomington,In says
OMG!!! Thank you sooo much for addressing this issue.I say “issue” because this is how I have felt since my first reading Rori’s concept of CDing.I knew that I had some problems accepting her philosophy but could not get exact clarity as to why.I love the clear,practical reasoning behind your position.You clarified my every emotion,thought and instinct that I felt as I read the CD concept.It is a recipe for disaster,as well as foundation for a life long pattern of power struggle.Thank you again for addressing this very one sided concept.
Josie says
Evan is right. Plus, the whole concept of circular dating seems asinine to me. Who are these women who have time to circular date? I am a 30something with a busy career, a time consuming sport, friends, and community activities. I can barely find time to respond to Match emails on some days. Dating one man is a serious time commitment, much less spend months upon months manipulating the man I “love” by spending evenings with other men I could care less about. No, Evan’s prescription is sound. Assess the man you’re dating and carefully scan for red flags as you get to know him. Make sure you are on the same page about your future. Give your best and whole self to the relationship, but set an internal time line for progression.
shinto says
I’ve had a friend, with whom I’ve been growing and cultivating a love for eight months. I haven’t dated in almost 30 years, so I bought Rori’s CD’s and also Evan’s book in order to learn more about it. I wish I had read this blog post. My relationship had just moved into the sexual realm and it was the most incredible experience of my life. But in trying to work Rori’s CD perspective, I intimated to my love that I was open to dating others. It was against my instincts, but I thought I should. What a horrible mistake. He was just opening himself to me, and he was devastated. He hasn’t spoken to me for 2 weeks, and I am crushed. We took a long time to build the trust to move into sex, and now that trust is broken. He has closed himself to me. I feel so very sad.
Holly says
Aaah, wise wise words, Evan. And I’m the sadder but wiser girl who knows this from sad experience. Call it “poly,” call it “circular dating,” call it whatever you like, but carrying on other relationships with waaaaaaaay less significant men while you’ve got a boyfriend is THE kiss of death. I was doing exactly what Rori said before I even knew Rori. My boyfriend had asked for exclusivity and I didn’t treasure that desire in him while it was there. I kept dating other people, not seeing the gem that he was in my life, not recognizing him as my soul mate, not recognizing him as the person with whom I wanted to spend the rest of my life, not fully giving us a chance. So he started dating other women, and finally he found one whom he loved and who was devoted to him. What were his exact words? “She was the perfect box for my heart, and so I couldn’t help but put it inside.” How about the biggest knife in my gut EVER. I can tell you I will not be making that same mistake again. Thanks for this article, Evan. Wise wise words.
GK says
Using another human as an instrument of therapy for self restoration and potential damage and dissatisfaction to others is a sort of cruelty. There are other ways to self restore oneself without resorting to relationships. There are people.societies in the world who do just fine if not in a relationship so one does not have to believe it to be be a mood elevator for emotional blues.
This splits the dating world into two groups, those who okay with CD and those who would not do CD.
Those of us who think CD is wrong on encountering someone who does should definitely end and move on to another person with surety because for those with a monogamous intent in marriage, emotion/person/body sharing in a relationship, amounts to cruelty. The right way to deal with unsurity, non-commitment is to discuss/do what’s needed to resolve the reasons for non-commitment, failing which proceed the break off and move on to the next person. Not being able to reach a surity within reasonable amount itself is a sign that is reason enough to know that the relationship won’t go to fruition. At start of committed dating two people should agree on a time frame time like 6 months/12 months whatever both can agree to itself After breaking a relationship, then one goes back to the dating-pool, sets up casual dates speed dates with as many people as possible to find a matching one again and restart the process leading to committed boyfriend/girlfriend and marriage.
As you say, It does seem cyclical that the only ones who will end up dating people in Circular Dating, who all are okay with CD, none of whom have enough will to break-off or commit.
With this new poisonous concept dating introduction of Circular Dating, It has to be cautioned/advertised to Daters who don’t want or do not feel comfortable with the concept of Circular Dating to stay away from people who Do Circular dating.
Holly says
I am a woman who is phobic of marriage. I have an uncle, three aunts and my mother who, combined, have been married 18 times. I would like to see a more realist concept of marriage be established; not the romantic ideal. Love is separate from marriage. Love will naturally form through the course of events in a relationship. Marriage is a commitment. There is not other proposition, jobs, careers, even children. What if you were expected to select a career that you would be expected to commit to until you die. You cannot change your mind. You cannot consider other options. You will perform that job until you die, regardless of weariness, abuses, unexpected catastrophes. Yet, if you leave that job, you will face a mountain of legal, moral and ethical issues. You will be scrutinized, down to the very penny in your pocket. You will be demonized, humiliated and scarred.
I wish more people would consider what they’re asking of another person. You are not asking for a romantic union based on love. You are asking for a lifelong, unconditional commitment to an unforeseen future in which they have little choice to abandon, for any reason. That’s a lot to ask of a person.
SparklingEmerald says
Holly @266 said
“I wish more people would consider what they’re asking of another person. You are not asking for a romantic union based on love. You are asking for a lifelong, unconditional commitment to an unforeseen future in which they have little choice to abandon, for any reason. That’s a lot to ask of a person. ”
Yes, and it’s a lot to ask of a person you don’t even love or who doesn’t love you. And if you are counting on “learning to love” that person and it doesn’t happen, you’ve damned them to a life-long loveless, joyless, marriage. That’s not only a lot to ask of a person, that a horrible thing to ask of a person.
Reply
Karmic Equation says
I don’t want to marry again, but not because I’ll be ” demonized, humiliated and scarred.”
Because divorce is an option to failed marriages, you’re not really asking for “a lifelong, unconditional commitment to an unforeseen future in which they have little choice to abandon, for any reason. ” You can DIVORCE if you are suffering a marriage that is full of “…abuses…”
Whether someone will divorce because of “unexpected catastrophes” will be up to that person’s own moral and ethical code. But they DO have the option to exit the marriage.
It’s perfectly ok to CHOOSE to not marry because EXITING a marriage is a real legal and economic HASSLE. But to be PHOBIC about marriage is a little crazy. You CAN certainly exit any marriage if it gets bad or simply because you feel like it, via divorce. And if you know you’re exiting the marriage for a good reason, those who “demonize, humiliate and scar” you aren’t worth your time of day. Who cares what they think?
Emily says
I get what you’re saying Evan, and I only wish more men were responsible, respectful and wouldn’t take women for granted. I know you say we should have more faith and trust in men while dating. I wish that every man that dated me for five months or more were intent on marrying me, given that that the relationship was progressing and moving closer. However, sadly, too many women have suffered being in a ‘limbo’ state and we equate being in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship as losing our precious time , freedom, and ‘power’ to the guy we’re dating, in that ultimately it is the guy that decides if he wants to propose.. if you state from the get go your intentions to get married I don’t understand that a guy would feel that you are cheating if you do not give him exclusivity until he proposes.. doesn’t it also take the pressure off of him to figure out if he truly wants to committ to you? I have not tried this ‘method’ myself, but as I am getting into my thirties, I am realizing time is off the essence. I don’t want to make any more mistakes with dating and men, and don’t want to feel that I’m giving up anything in order to be with a man.
Jeremy says
Just to add another man’s perspective here, I think that this whole issue is ridiculous.
I’ve said this in other posts, but I’ll repeat it here – we really need to define what “commitment” means in marriage. It seems like many women demand that men should commit to them by proposing marriage. What they don’t seem to realize is that they are, by and large, not offering any commitment themselves.
The only commitment in marriage (commitment being a legally-enforceable arrangement) is the commitment of provisioning of the lower-income spouse by the high-earning spouse. The high-earning spouse is most often the man (either due to an income disparity before the marriage, or after the birth of children when the woman may decide to work part-time or not at all). At any time, if the lower-income spouse chooses to walk from the marriage, regardless of the reason, she will walk away with cash and prizes, and usually primary custody of the children as well. The higher-earning spouse will be left without his children (most of the time), without his house (usually), and with half his income going to support someone who does nothing for him in return.
Now, talk to me about how men “should commit” after a few months of a relationship! Why on EARTH would he do that? He would have to be CRAZY to commit half his income (in perpetuity) to a woman who commits NOTHING to him in return. And that, IMHO, is the purpose of the courtship period. It is the time for the woman to show the man what she is made of – that she would make a good wife, that she is not money crazy, that she respects a commitment and would not walk away from a marriage (even though it may be to her financial benefit to do so) because she loves the man.
If a woman circle dates until the man offers to give her half his money in perpetuity, what she is showing him is that she does not value him, does not love him, and that she is not trustworthy to stay with him in the future if she does not always get her way.
As a man (and a primary breadwinner), I would not walk away from a woman who circle dated in the context of a relationship – I would RUN! And for those who posted that Rori is talking about not getting into a “girlfriend” stage at all, why on earth would I commit to a woman who was not my exclusive girlfriend?
Think about it from the reverse perspective, for a minute. If a woman was the higher-earning person in a relationship and the lower-earning man was quick to propose to her, do you think she would say yes? Or might she want to get to know this man a bit better before she commits half her income to him in perpetuity? You think she might want more time? Would your opinion change if he told her he would continue to circle date until she “womanned up” and agreed to marry him? Ridiculous.
RustyLH says
Excellent post. I can’t argue with this at all.
Emily says
Wow, Jeremy.. I think you need to reevaluate your/the man’s role in a relationship. Women are not wanting marriage for solely financial stability anymore.. women are the breadwinners now and can take care of themselves financially. they want companionship and a partnership with a man, and a sense of stability of a loving relationship that only the comittment of marriage can truly provide for most women. Marriage is not about a financial contract for most women anymore.. it is about building a loving relationship. Men and women are still different biologically and socially, so the same old courtship rules still apply- however your notion of the man being in the ‘superior financial’ position is very much antiquated, and frankly sounds a bit mysoginistic to me.
Jeremy says
I think you may have missed my point, Emily. The point was that the only “commitment” in marriage is the financial commitment by the higher-earning spouse to the lower-earning spouse. The higher-earning spouse may be male or female. It happens that it is usually the male, even in today’s society, especially once children are born (since many women work only part-time or not at all once children are born). But not always – obviously there are numerous examples where the woman is the higher-earning spouse.
Emily, of course everyone wants a loving, stable relationship. But marriage does NOT “commit” a person to a loving, stable relationship. Each spouse is free to walk (via divorce) whenever they want, for any reason they want. And at that time, they will either have to pay (if they are the higher-earning spouse) or be paid (if they are the lower earning spouse), depending on who made the commitment (ie. who is the higher-earning spouse).
I might suggest that you look at your own statement “they want companionship and partnership and a sense of stability…that only the commitment of marriage can truly provide for most women.” What is it about marriage, do you think, that provides women with that sense of stability? After all, can’t men walk away from marriage the same as they can walk away from boyfriend/girlfriend relationships? Why would a woman feel more secure just because a piece of paper is signed?
Might the answer be that most women feel secure because they know that their husband is unlikely to leave them after marriage due to his financial commitments? Might this be the reason why 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women, not men, and that it is the women who get alimony in 95% of those cases? Might this be why so many men are not eager to “commit” to marriage? And might this also be the reason why women who are the higher-earning partner are also less likely to want to marry men who make significantly less than they do, in most cases?
You see, Emily, it is not a case of antiquated data or misogyny. It is simply an observation that only one person commits in marriage, and that person, male or female, will usually be the more reluctant one to marry. This is also why I disagree with the new post you wrote below – if a woman circle dates, why on earth would she expect any man to commit to her? What would his motivation be? How could he expect to trust her in the future?
Chance says
Agree on all points, Jeremy. Well said. On a side note, the term “misogyny” seems to be quickly becoming one of the most over-used words in the English language. It is thrown around so much as a way to shut down debate (usually applied within the context of an ad hominem attack) that it has no practical meaning anymore.
Karmic Equation says
I think folks, including Evan, are misinterpreting Rori Raye’s circular dating philosophy.
EMK’s philosophy is that you walk away from bad boyfriends. But we all know most women have trouble doing that. Most women would rather try to force him to change. Which we also know is ineffective.
What Rori Raye is suggesting is that you don’t actually break up with him, but rather open up the relationship unilaterally, when a man is no longer behaving like a good bf. Start accepting dates with other men without “breaking up” with the bad boyfriend. Forcing herself to take all her eggs out of his basket and putting them in other baskets (this is a good blog post: http://blackgirlsareeasy.com/2014/05/eggs-in-one-basket.html — WARNING – don’t read if you’re easily offended).
The question is, is a man who isn’t progressing the relationship as quickly as a woman wants him to (e.g., towards marriage) — being a bad boyfriend? That’s for the woman to decide.
If a woman thinks a man is getting complacent in a relationship and she doesn’t want to go cold turkey in breaking up with him, then starting to date other men is going to force him to sh*t or get off the pot. He’s either going to decide he doesn’t want to lose her or he’s going to decide that she wasn’t what he was looking for. Or he might like the new dynamic, which then frees the woman to date other men while “seeing how things go” with the not-exclusive bf.
Rori puts the disclaimer that when she CD’s she’s dating other men “without sex” — but come on, between the lines is the rounding the bases. So something sexual will be going on with the new guys. Can a woman do this, round the bases with a few guys, perhaps continue to have sex with the original bf? Most women can’t.
So effectively, RR’s CD isn’t going to work for most women who follow you, Evan.
I’d advise most women to stay free agents as long as they can. Have sex when she wants to. WITHOUT requiring the sexclusivity so that she can CD UNTIL one of the guys proposes. Basically stay a free agent until a man proposes. This is what happened in the “good old days.” Women dated a lot of men (presumably without sex, but I’m not sure I buy that) — until one of them proposed. Women can still do this as long as they either don’t have sex with any of the guys…or be willing to be sexual with more than one guy. But most women can’t do either.
I’ll say this until I’m blue in the face…Sexual liberation didn’t liberate women. It liberated men. And until women truly embrace sexual liberation the way men have, women will continue to feel they are losing out on relationships with the sexy, charismatic, successful man.
So women who’re looking to get married because they want to start a family? Those women will have to trade off on sexy, charismatic, or successful man for the family-oriented man, who most likely will not be as sexy or as charismatic or as successful.
If she wants to have a relationship with that sexy, charismatic, successful man, she’ll have to trade off the hope of “forever” or sexclusivity to be with that guy. She can have a relationship with him, but it will be shortlived. Can she live with that?
I do think Circulating Dating is a good baby step for women who don’t have the willpower to break up with a man cold turkey. But I think those same women will have just as much trouble circular dating.
Jeremy says
I can’t say that I agree with you here, Karmic. To a man like me (and, I think, to most men) the CD concept IS essentially breaking up.
You refer to the “good old days” when a woman dated non-exclusively until she found a man to commit to her. But remember that, in those “good old days” she also had to commit as well – there was no such thing as no-fault divorce, there were penalties for adultery, and there was a concept that both spouses “owed” each other sexual relations in a marriage. I am not saying that these were good or bad, but simply saying that commitment was double-sided if you want to look nostalgically at the “good old days”.
You state that the sexual revolution liberated men, not women. I would say that it liberated the top 15-20% of men to have all the sex they want, and relegated the remaining 80% or so to a VERY uncertain concept of marriage/divorce that works against them rather than for them.
Bottom line – and again, take this opinion for whatever it may be worth as one male’s perspective – if you want commitment and are offering none in return, the onus is on YOU to prove trustworthiness during the courtship period. Circle-dating and this feeling of “entitlement to marriage” seems a little ridiculous to me.
Evan Marc Katz says
No man proposes to a woman who is dating other men. Nor would I expect a woman to commit to a man who was dating other women. CDing is another term for an “open relationship,” except it’s one that women seem to magically be able to justify.
Emily says
This is only because women ALLOW men to put them in the girlfriend status until it is convenient for them to propose. However, a woman should only commit herself to a man if he specifically says, I want to marry you and spend my life with you. If he doesn’t, what right does he have to assume she can’t meet other men? It is really none of his business. And, it is to be expected the same applies for the woman.. he is allowed to date other women.. until he decides he wants to be with her and committ himself to her.. the whole boyfriend-girlfriend status to me is becoming clear IS convenient for men, and women often lose in this deal
Karl R says
Emily said:
“a woman should only commit herself to a man if he specifically says, I want to marry you and spend my life with you. If he doesn’t, what right does he have to assume she can’t meet other men? It is really none of his business. And, it is to be expected the same applies for the woman.. he is allowed to date other women.. until he decides he wants to be with her and committ himself to her..“
I’ve dated non-exclusively. When I did, I was clearly not serious about any of the women. Therefore, I was not going to propose to them.
I would be a fool to propose to a woman I was not serious about.
I’ve dated women who were dating non-exclusively. They were clearly not serious about me. Therefore, I was not going to propose to any of them.
I would be a fool to propose to a woman who was not serious about me.
If you’re unwilling to commit to exclusively date before your engaged, then every intelligent, sane man will choose not to propose. He won’t even emotionally invest himself in the relationship.
That’s his right.
In 2009, I dated a woman who wanted to keep her options open. That was perfectly fine. I wasn’t going to emotionally invest in her when she wasn’t interested in doing the same. After about three months, we mutually decided to date exclusively. After 15 months of dating exclusively, we got engaged. We were engaged for about 20 months before we got married.
If my wife had followed your strategy of dating around until she was engaged, then we wouldn’t be married. We wouldn’t even be dating at this point.
Feel free to try your strategy for as long as you want. Don’t be surprised when none of the intelligent, sane men want to propose under those circumstances.
Karmic Equation says
“No man proposes to a woman who is dating other men.”
Nor should he — if she’s foolish enough to tell him. Women foolish enough to advertise that fact and fail to juggle men with panache, are going to lose. We women EXCEL at multitasking. And most men get complacent after sex (because they’re USED TO women taking themselves off the market after sex) — so unless a woman is a failure at multitasking, the guy will be none the wiser.
Men very often DON’T tell women when they’re dating others. As long as he hasn’t offered exclusivity, she’s single. If it’s marriage she’s after, she’s perfectly in her rights to behave as if she were single until she gets the ring, if she’s high-value enough to the man/men. Granted 80% of women don’t have that kind of value.
And the fact of the matter is, a man who IS marriage-minded to the woman in question, should be behaving in a way that leaves her IN NO DOUBT about her value to him nor what his intentions are. If she has doubts about her value to him — and she’s communicated her needs about marriage well (as in non-critical/non-complaining, just the facts way) — and he is clearly non-committal, she does need to push him to sh*t or get off the pot.
Remember, RR’s CD philosophy is the baby step for those women unwilling or unable to break up with their bfs for whatever the reasons. My spin on it is that women should remain free agents until she gets what she wants, for some that’s sexclusivity, for others it’s marriage.
The question really is timeline. When should this happen? For a secure, high-value woman, who communicates well, she can do it within weeks or a few months (a la Fusee). For others who are anxious or insecure or poor communicators, I have no idea. My ex-husband asked me to elope after 6 weeks of dating (I said “No, we can’t elope, Silly. People will think I’m pregnant!” — I was 27 and cared what people thought then). I considered myself unofficially engaged at that point, moved in with him after 3 months of dating — due to my getting laid off and not being able to afford my apt — and “got the ring” about a month later. All on HIS timeline. He left me in no doubt about his intentions. But we didn’t marry until about 2 years later (my timeline). — I don’t do anything conventionally 😉
——————
Personally, I think women who’re divorced and have had children, and are financially stable — those women DON’T need marriage to be in loving relationships. Men can love without commitment. Just as there can be commitment without love (e.g., arranged marriages; married couples who stay together for the children).
We divorcees have a lot of power over our romantic lives — much more so than the never-been-married, wanting to have children women — once we become clear on what we really want. Do we want to be adored for ourselves when we’re with our man? Or are we only happy when we *know* they’re not dating other women, no matter how good they are to us when they’re with us? Add to that, you want both with someone you’re attracted to and who’s attracted to you? One who can deal with your eccentricities? Someone who’s compatible with you in EVERY way? One within who’s age appropriate? Or at least stage-appropriate? Each element decreases your dating pool.
You’re going to have to trade off on something the older you get. There’s more than one way to skin a cat and get what you want. More than one way to happiness and being content and satisfied. Being married or having a committed LTR is NOT the only way there.
tamara says
@karmic equation: U’re advocating that women do this circular-dating Without telling the men? That sounds fine to me if they’re just casually dating, but if they’ve agreed to stop seeing other pple, I think that’s so unethical.
I don’t know if I’m a circular-dater according to the official definition, but I have dated more than 1 guy at a time; however I was always honest about it with guys, I told them to feel free to date other women as well. I feel some women who do this CD-thingee are being selfish/insecure in that they want to date >1 man but they wouldn’t want Him dating >1 woman. I dated around because I was–and think I am still–too young to settle down yet and I knew I had my own issues to work out before I’d make any man a good wife–insomnia, extreme introversion etc. So I wanted guys to date other women so that if I couldn’t commit to them, at least THEY also wouldn’t be wasting their time.
I thus honestly feel that I was justified and that my motives were/are unselfish. But the way some women see CD is in a very selfish way, and dishonesty on top of that is horrible. If I were a guy and found out a woman was dating other men while giving me the impression that we were exclusive, I think I’d dump her. Especially if I was sleeping with her, cos I’d assume she was sleeping with him too, whereas I was being monogamous.
Evan Marc Katz says
It doesn’t matter, Tamara. If you don’t have a boyfriend, date whomever you want. Once you have a boyfriend, you stop dating other people. If you want a man to propose, you better be his monogamous girlfriend. Those are the rules. No exceptions – no matter how much Circular Dating convinces you otherwise.
tamara says
@Evan: Well u’re the dating expert who consistently gives good advice, so I’ll defer to u on this. I suppose I can be a bit too much of a hippie in my ways, including in dating, lol.
RustyLH says
“I’ll say this until I’m blue in the face…Sexual liberation didn’t liberate women. It liberated men.”
I disagree, though you are somewhat right on men being liberated but I think Jeremy refined it correctly.
“You state that the sexual revolution liberated men, not women. I would say that it liberated the top 15-20% of men to have all the sex they want, and relegated the remaining 80% or so to a VERY uncertain concept of marriage/divorce that works against them rather than for them.”
This is right on the money. The top group of guys who have model good looks will have many many partners. Guys who are rich or famous will have many many partners. I talked the other day about my one friend that fit that bill. This also ruins women for the men they will actually end up with. Those poor guys will never measure up to the guys she had flings with. Guys for whom she did not measure up. But most of those guys are players simply because they can be. And what women can’t seem to understand is that when these guys choose to have meaningless sex, they aren’t nearly as picky about who they have it with. Of course women can’t accept that because they have been to so many self help seminars and read so many self help books and websites telling them to view themselves as having a very high value. So even if they know a guy is a bit of a player, or has been through many girlfriends, they believe that they will be the one to tame him. Of course it doesn’t happen. They then work their way down the ladder until they find a guy that will commit, and then forever make his life hell because he doesn’t live up to those guys higher on her ladder that she did have a short relationship with.
“And until women truly embrace sexual liberation the way men have, women will continue to feel they are losing out on relationships with the sexy, charismatic, successful man.”
And of course this never happens. Women have been trying to do this for many decades. Even back in the roaring 20’s. It never happens because women are not built like men. Their biology doesn’t support this. Biologically it is to a man’s advantage to have as many partners as possible. To a woman it is not. Women are programmed to try to find the best mate they can. The ONE best mate. She only produces a limited umber of eggs, and when one is fertilized, she is now out of the mating pool for nearly a year.
But this is not primeval times. Our biological programming doesn’t really work for us. First, the goal of our lives should not be to get our genes into the next generation. Stop acting like slaves to that biological call.
If you want a great relationship, the old fashioned was are best. But that means that women have to retake their roles as gatekeepers of sex. And that means less, not more promiscuity. This means men will also have to learn to stop using the shotgun method, and actually go back to courting one girl…one they are actually serious about.
I don’t see the genie being put back into the bottle anytime soon however. The damage has been done and I don’t see it being corrected.
As for circular dating. The last women I would ever give a marriage proposal is to a woman that is dating other men. So the simple fact is, if a woman starts right off telling me that she wants to circular date, I will do one of two things. Continue to date her for the companionship while I look for somebody worth committing to, or I will drop her flat right there. Jeremy is right. It is up to her to prove that she is worth making that huge commitment to. Sorry, but men carry the majority of risk in a relationship with the way divorce courts are run. You are going to straight get bent over, if you are the man, and you have had kids with the woman. And if they are young, it is going to last for many years. Oh, and that house he put his blood sweat and tears into fixing up…he gets to watch her move another man into that house.
If i have been dating her for a few years and am not making a move to propose, I am likely not going to do so.
I would tell men this, however. Get married, but control your swimmers. Don’t get her pregnant for several years. See if things change drastically a couple of years after the marriage. If you think she isn’t going to stick with you through thick and thin, get rid of her. Much cheaper to do before kids come into the picture. If you have kids, you are screwed.
Karmic Equation says
@Jeremy and RustyLH:
“I would say that it liberated the top 15-20% of men to have all the sex they want, and relegated the remaining 80% or so to a VERY uncertain concept of marriage/divorce that works against them rather than for them.” – Jeremy 269.1
Not true, I’m sure the top 15-20% (good looking, high status, or wealthy) — have the SAME access now to sex as they did back in the good old days. Except now instead of just “loose women” or “groupies”, they can have their pick of “quality (aka naive) women” as well, because those naive women now do give themselves permission to have sex without a ring…but those naive women still equate sex to relationships (or hope/expect one after sex). And those naive, and not truly sexually liberated women, still have trouble having the casual relationships to which they’re entitled under “sexual liberation.”
The remaining 80% of men all have the same access to sex and relationships, provided they decide to date/have sex WITHIN THEIR LEAGUE. Most of those 80% are aiming to for the top 20% of attractive women for relationships and/or sex. But can/will have casual sex with women in or below their league. You and Rusty have admitted as much.
I’m 47 and by my inbox (50/18 flirts msgs in less than 24 hrs on Ourtime), considered beautiful and sexy by men my age and above. Of those 50 messages, I’m sure 95% are well below my league, too fat, too old looking, etc. (I wasn’t too impressed with their search selections. I only saw 1 guy I felt was good looking, 1 not bad, everyone else no go – so I haven’t decided to cough up the money to see who’ve actually been messaging/flirting with me). On Okcupid, I’ve had a movie star good looking young 21 yo message me (I said no, with much regret, he was totally hot! lmao) and a 26 yo Channing Tatum look alike msg me (also said no, with much regret — I am so into Channing <sigh>). While I’m not looking for a serious LTR right now, I’m also not looking to be hunted and bagged by cubs that young.
I’m pretty certain MOST attractive women my age get at least that much interest and women in their 20-30’s probably 2x-4x as many messages by those 80% trying to date up. Date WITHIN your own league and you, as men, will have as many relationships and sex with quality women as you can handle.
Can those women, 6’s and below, say the same about relationships, marriage, or other forms of “commitment”? — No. They’re at men’s mercy. Even the 10’s are at men’s mercy for “marriage”. So puh-lease, don’t cry poor mouth about access to casual sex or being in control of relationships, with access to relationship-sex. You can have it all, even if you’re an average guy, as long as you aim for average women. Those average women, who have fewer options than the top 20% of women, aren’t going to easily Circular Date, and as a result, don’t have the clout, nor, as Rusty has pointed out, the willingness/capacity to fight their biology.
” Bottom line — and again, take this opinion for whatever it may be worth as one male’s perspective — if you want commitment and are offering none in return, the onus is on YOU to prove trustworthiness during the courtship period.” – Jeremy 269.1
I think women who are of child bearing age and marriage-minded have high value to men of the same mindset. To others, like you, who value money over children/family — or said another way — whose FEARS about losing money outweighs his DESIRE for children and a family, then she’s not the one for you and you guys would be a bad fit.
For you, a woman who ALSO thought of marriage as a contract of mutual commitment and economics, would be a great fit. But odds are, she’s not going to be as feminine as you would like her to be. Or you might have to trade off on age or looks to get that mindset. Young women, who’ve never been married, are HIGHLY romantic and think romantically of marriage, not contractually.
Jeremy says
A couple of points, Karmic:
“Others, like you (ie. ME) who value money over children over family/fears losing money outweigh his desire for children or family”. Wow. Not sure where this is coming from. Not that this is at all relevant, but I have a very high opinion of marriage, family, and the romantic life that a married couple can build if both partners are dedicated. I am happily married (8 years) with 3 children, and I love my wife and kids very much.
This does not change the fact that if anything deteriorated in my marriage and it were to end (and I sincerely hope it does not – for emotional and not financial reasons), I would be the one with the commitment, not my wife.
This was my point, Karmic, when I discussed your opinion of the sexual revolution. I never said that it relegated 80% of men to sexless lives. I said that it relegated 80% of men (the 80% of men who are interested in marriage, which the top 20% are not) to a very uncertain concept of marriage that does not work in their favor (ie. if things fall apart). In that case, in spite of the best original romantic intentions of both partners, ultimately, in its failure, marriage becomes only a financial contract favoring the lower income spouse (whereas in its success, marriage is ever so much more).
This is why, I feel, it is so important – especially for the higher-income spouse – to be as certain as possible about the quality of the relationship BEFORE committing to marriage. This is also why I feel that it is so unreasonable to require that anyone commit half their future income before becoming an exclusive couple.
Your arguments that circle dating would work if the woman hides it from her partner frighten me. A woman (or man) who would do that would be a prime candidate for future cheating, IMHO. It would definitely not inspire trustworthiness.
If you disagree with me, you are obviously entitled to your opinion – and we may agree to disagree. I just think that anyone who takes this advice and circle dates may, in fact, be destroying a relationship that might otherwise lead to marriage.
Karmic Equation says
“Your arguments that circle dating would work if the woman hides it from her partner frighten me. A woman (or man) who would do that would be a prime candidate for future cheating, IMHO. It would definitely not inspire trustworthiness.”
Of course it would scare you. Women who wield sex as a weapon instead of providing it as a gift is frightening to most men.
In this scenario, if a man behaves as a good boyfriend does at all times (ok, i’ll give you a break — MOST times) — he shouldn’t have any fear that she’s going to cheat. Because she would only do this if he were a BAD bf. You see?
Nothing to fear if he’s being a good boyfriend.
Suppose all women do this. Men who are bad bfs get denied access to sex. All women tell each other the infractions of that bf. Gee maybe that would change the culture so that all men, who want sex — which is ALL of them — to behave well so more women are willing to have sex with him? What a radical world that would be, huh? Women would love it and men would hate it. THAT is girl power 🙂
And again, just the CONCEPT of women being more free with sex is eliciting the “character” vilification – “she’s not trustworthy — she’s more likely to cheat, so I’m not going to want her to be my wife.” Those words are to scare women — intended to control her sexuality. Here in America we control women’s sexuality with double standards — the same way other cultures try to control women with abayas. Ultimately it’s not different. We’re more enlightened and educated here in the USA, so the the pen is mightier than the sword. In other cultures…um stoning is to be expected…of the woman who commits adultery but not the man…even if the woman is single and the man is married. Hmmm… is there something wrong with that picture?
I’m just against stoning the wrong party.
Men behaving as good boyfriend’s should in Karmic’s New World would have nothing to fear because of women’s “biology” to only have only one partner, right, RustyLH?
RustyLH says
By your reasoning, Karmic, a woman who is a good girlfriend/wife should have no reason to fear her boyfriend/husband cheating? Yes, I know the stereotype is that men just cheat because they are dogs but women only cheat because their man isn’t fulfilling them. It’s an utter lie. It’s shifting blame. I assure you that many men cheat because they are unfulfilled at home. If you use sex as a weapon, or to manipulate…if you withhold love, sex, affection, words of affirmation, all in some misguided thinking that this will keep him in line, you are mistaken. It makes him vulnerable to any woman who comes into his life and starts providing what you are withholding. Cheating on him isn’t going to teach him a lesson either. It simply gives him moral ground to leave, or cheat also. Hey, nothing helps repair a relationship like increasing the chance of an STD, right?
As for reducing sexual promiscuity, you seem to think that I only hold women responsible for this. I don’t. I think men should also do so. And the benefits for him doing so are the same as for a woman. If he has slept with some women that are better than the woman he ends up with, if they were more sexually adventurous, if they were prettier, etc… this will help his marriage how?
And think about this, and I have seen this situation many times…somebody is in a sexual relationship with one person but ends up breaking up and at some point in the future starts a relationship with one of the previous partner’s friends. One such situation, a friend of mine was madly in love with this woman. But she broke it off. Ended up getting married. My friend married a girl who as it turns out was a new friend of his old GF. I attended more than one party where this guy and both girls were in the same house, at the same party. He was honest with me…he still pined for that other girl. She was better and more adventurous in bed…and had a better body. I am sure he never let his wife know these thoughts. But hey, what a beautiful situation…makes for a great Norman Rockwell painting, right?
Also,it only stands to reason that somebody who can exercise sexual self restraint/control, will also be less likely to cheat. There was a time when we understood simple concepts like that. There was also a time when women understood the power they wielded by being the gate keepers of sex. If a man acted like a buffoon, was a player, etc… he lost out on the quality women, since sex much more so than today, only came with marriage. Now, women reward these unsavory types with free sex, holding the attitude, “it’s only sex…I’m not going to marry him.” So unsavory men are not being punished and ostracized by women like they once were, and in fact many men no act in ways that would have gotten them black listed by women. Then, when no longer have to be good men to get what they want, women scratch their head and wonder why their are no good men.
Karmic Equation says
Rusty,
You make NO SENSE:
“By your reasoning, Karmic, a woman who is a good girlfriend/wife should have no reason to fear her boyfriend/husband cheating? Yes, I know the stereotype is that men just cheat because they are dogs but women only cheat because their man isn’t fulfilling them. It’s an utter lie. It’s shifting blame. I assure you that many men cheat because they are unfulfilled at home.”
If a woman’s being a good girlfriend then she should have no fear of her man cheating. – Yes that is my reasoning and that should be a reasonable assumption.
However, we know men DO cheat even on good girlfriends…but you’re denying men who cheat under these circumstances are dogs, but rather that they’re “unfulfilled” at home—due to some creative and illogical sentence structure.
“Also, it only stands to reason that somebody who can exercise sexual self restraint/control, will also be less likely to cheat.”
Then by your reasoning, all men are likely to cheat aren’t they? Very few men exercise sexual restraint/control when they’re single.
—–
I’m not going to have a battle of wits with the unarmed.
Return when you can debate properly. I won’t hold my breath.
RustyLH says
@ Karmic Tossing out ad hominems is a sign of capitulation. I understand this since you toss out stereotypes as if they are fact. I hate to tell you this but you are wrong. Many, many men exercise self restraint.
Again, you make so many assumptions. Show me where I said that a man who cheats on a good woman is not a dog. I think your need to recalibrate before you debate with me. I notice things like this. You see, I challenged the notion that all women only cheat because their man is not taking care of her needs in some fashion be they emotional or sexual or any other need, while men are all out there only cheating on good women who bend over backwards to make them happy, but he is just a dog.
Now, if you use some CPU cycles to carry this out to isn’t logical conclusion, the fact is that some women cheat because their are being neglected in some fashion at home, and some men cheat because they are being neglected at home. At the same time, some men and some women simply cheat because they can. Or maybe some women felt it was OK to CD and cheated without telling him, and a few years later, she isn’t getting her selfish way in some other way, so she cheats again to show that dumb man that no man is going to take her for granted. Scary scary scary.
I shudder to think how many women justified cheating while on a business trip, thinking, “men have done this for decades…blah blah victim…blah…no man tells me what I can’t do….blah blah…hear me roar…blah blah.
Then, even though you made many false assumptions and used logical fallacies, you choose to insult me. WOW.
Evan, you wondered why my glimmer if hope was being dashed?
SparklingEmerald says
Hey folks – We can’t go back to 1945. Saying this is “how it used to be done” is nonsense, because so much else has changed that CD just won’t work in this day and age. Men might as well use the Old Testament to justify polygamy.
I just can’t get on board with the RR one sided open relationship. Where the girl gets to date around (without having sex, but there’s a lot of debate about what “sex” means. Think Bill Clinton scandal) Does the guy who has a “girlfriend” who is CDing get to “circular date” ?
It just seems like emotional blackmail to me.
To flip it around, if a guy told me early on, “I’m dating for a wife, and unless we’re engaged, I’m seeing other women” I would run for the hills. Or if he outright proposed after only a few months of dating, and then said, accept this proposal or else . . . I would run.
What kind of marriage could one expect with such a person ? Let’s have children right NOW, or I’ll impregnate another woman. Let’s move to this state, or I’ll find another wife in that state. I require this brand of sexual kink, if you’re not into that, I’ll find a woman to give me that particular flavor. If a man gave me that kind of ulitmatum (demanding a promise of marriage early in the relationship or else he’ll date others) I would just imagine a lifetime of ulitmatums and emotional black mail as a way of life. NO THANK YOU.
Since I wouldn’t want a man doing that to me, then since I’m so big on the golden rule, I wouldn’t treat a guy like that.
Karmic Equation says
Does 4 a quorum make? For the sake of argument let’s say so, and that the 4 men who’ve chimed in so far to say that women need to be monogamous for them to propose to her (EMK, Karl R, Jeremy, and RustyLH) are representative of the world of men at large.
This instills fear in the heart of most women of child-bearing years, looking to get married, does it not?
This is the microcosm of the male-dominated culture that controls women’s sexuality.
If women didn’t care about marriage, what power would men have over us?
Successful women can have children without men (ever hear of sperm banks?) — There is no longer ANY STIGMA WHATSOEVER about single parenthood or even women who choose to have children via artificial insemination because she wants to silence her biological clock
And men who want children? Umm they’re going to work that much harder to find women to have children to “carry on his good name”, won’t they?
Successful women can raise children without men (we can afford nannies; and there are a lot of single moms out there doing this because they must not because they can afford to)
Strong, secure women don’t need men to validate their worth as women or as human beings
“Smart” women don’t want men less educated than they are — and many women here agree that educated women are increasing in the population while educated men are decreasing
Before I go further, while I sound like a feminist, I am definitely NOT. I LOVE men and NEED them…for companionship…for love…for sex — ALL of which I can get WITHOUT marriage and without even committed LTRs. See where I’m going?
If we women really want to revolutionize the new age of sexual liberation — it’s NOT to make women more chaste, to teach men our value — it is to take away men’s power over what WE value. Devalue marriage as something every woman aspires to have? And then what would men offer to get the sex and “commitment” THEY so desperately want? And men who want to have children? I wonder what they would do to earn the favor of a woman willing to bear his child?
Might it be the love and devotion we truly desire?
If women are willing to walk away if men stop loving us the way we want? If we can go and have sex with his best friend when he disrespects us? Gee, maybe he might clean up his act if he KNOWS that he earns OUR presence in his life; OUR love, and OUR sex with his DEVOTION not with his PROMISE OF A FUTURE? Gee, might we be able to detect lying men because now we really and truly evaluate his actions (how devoted is he behaving) instead of his pretty words (“I want to honeymoon in Bora Bora someday” and “You’re beautiful and I love you so much!”).
That would be truly revolutionary. But I think too radical for most women to stand behind. To much of insurgence against the male culture we’ve internalized. <sigh>
Peace 🙂
John says
the 4 men who’ve chimed in so far to say that women need to be monogamous for them to propose to her (EMK, Karl R, Jeremy, and RustyLH) are representative of the world of men at large.
You can add me to this list. A woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to propose. Heck, a woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to introduce her to my friends/family.
I usually disagree with EMK on many topics, but he nailed this one. Sounds like Rori’s readers beat him up pretty good- a lot more than I could ever do- but he held his ground and made great points. I am sure he did save a few souls over there.
Julia says
John, seems very reasonable to me. Relationships must have a foundation of trust, how could you trust a partner if she were running around with many men as a means to make you jealous as propose. Its manipulation 101, not healthy at all. I agree with dating multiple people while in the casual stage but once a man steps up and shows you he wants to be with just you, its time to get to know him better. The whole concept of manipulation for proposals, women being obsessed with the only end goal:marriage and men toying with women for fun is phooey. As a woman “in my child bearing years” my end goal is not an engagement ring, its a lifetime partnership with a man I adore, adores me and compliments me. Its long term partnership. My role of figuring out if he’s good for me is just as important as him taking the time to figure out if I am the one.
None of this can be accomplished when either partner is anxious and doesn’t trust.
Chance says
“If we can go and have sex with his best friend when he disrespects us? Gee, maybe he might clean up his act if he KNOWS that he earns OUR presence in his life”
Yeah, so anyone who goes off and has sex with his/her partner’s best friend when he/she feels disrespected is a shitbag, and so is the “best friend”. Sorry. Reading this post alone, it makes you come across like someone who is trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency.
RustyLH says
Yeah, so anyone who goes off and has sex with his/her partner’s best friend when he/she feels disrespected is a shitbag, and so is the “best friend”. Sorry. Reading this post alone, it makes you come across like someone who is trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency.
That surprises you John? On the surface, feminism was fine…but many at it’s core aren’t interested in equality. They want special rights. They are in a word…SELFISH. The want rights without responsibilities. They want rights reserved only for them. They want men to bear all of the responsibilities with few if any rights.
It causes a problem when arguing against that form of feminism because many women see themselves as a feminist but that is because they are only interested in equal rights. They do not realize that they give aid and comfort to women that want to destroy what these mainstream women want. The core are selfish and want to destroy the whole notion of paternal head of household marriages. This woman above is seems to also think this is just fine. Her stance seem to be that we men should just be happy with our sucky place in the world that she and the rest of the feminists deem acceptable for us, and if we aren’t happy with that, if we can’t give up our rights, but still take on the responsibility of kissing their feet with adoration, then they will just make us irrelevant…obsolete. LOL Yeah, OK. What they haven’t clued into is that we don’t need them.
Evan Marc Katz says
Rusty, it’s time to curtail this MRA attitude, because if the irony hasn’t escaped you, it’s the exact flipside of the feminism you so decry – it’s selfish, shortsighted, and denigrates an entire gender. This is a blog for smart, strong, successful women. There is nothing for them to learn from a man who has absolutely no interest in them or sympathy to their plight. So either be constructive and helpful to our readers, or go back to the MRA sites which believe that men are oppressed by women. Right now, your posts are becoming destructive in their tone.
RustyLH says
You’re nothing more than a feminist. I’ve read their mantra…destroy marriage itself.
If we women really want to revolutionize the new age of sexual liberation – it’s NOT to make women more chaste, to teach men our value – it is to take away men’s power over what WE value. Devalue marriage as something every woman aspires to have? And then what would men offer to get the sex and “commitment” THEY so desperately want? And men who want to have children? I wonder what they would do to earn the favor of a woman willing to bear his child?
I think men would find it much cheaper in the long run to pay a young woman to carry a child to term for him. And far less headaches for him. he doesn’t have to use her eggs and in fact it would be far better for him not to, in case she suddenly wants the baby. If it is his sperm but not her eggs, then include the contract, it gives him far better legal standing in court.
Two can play that game of “we don’t need you.” Men can also find a woman overseas, which offers 20% chance of divorce instead of 60%, a wife who is typically in better shape, prettier, still likes being a woman, respects men for just being a good man, is more affectionate, doesn’t use sex, love affection or sex as a weapon, etc…
Sterotypes women in the states promote to make themselves feel better.
She’s just looking for a green card.—–Not true in most cases. And there are other western countries they can go where it is far easier for them to get citizenship, such as most European countries, if that is what they offer. Some of the sites I use, the many of the woman have selected the “not interested in moving to another country” option. Even most of those who say they would cosnider it, have college degrees, and many have very good jobs. Nurses, doctors, lawyers, business women, etc… They have to start over if they move here. No…like it or not, most are looking for love. So long as a man is realistic in his choice, he has a very good chance of a long term successful marriage. I think the majority of the 20% that fail are the guys who are unrealistic. 60 year old bringing a 20 year old model type to the country and thinks his money and house will be enough to keep her long term. However, a 50 year old, in reasonable shape, a job and a good heart, can reasonably expect a decent looking woman as young as 34 to stay. I myself prefer no younger than 38. I think that is safer because most women in those countries typically list guys 3 years younger to 12 years older as their preference.
2 of the men at my church are married to Brazilian women that are 13 years younger. I know these women and they are very happy. Both want to hook me up but I prefer to do that for myself.
I liken it to American women of quality as being a mountain…and they are saying, “man up and accept the challenge…climb me…you’ll enjoy the view. But a sane man knows that a life at the top of the mountain is unfriendly, and a lot of work for little payoff, not to mention many dangers and severe consequences. Then their attitude is, “What? Not man enough..fine, I don’t need you.”
But, the sane man knows that life in the valley (foreign women) is more rewarding. More return on investment. More lush landscape, more fertile so what you plant grows better. By that i am not talking about babies. I am talking about the fact that what you do for her is appreciated far more than it is by American women. in addition the risks are not as great. You can relax and enjoy your life without watching ever footstep, where as, every footstep in on the mountain could be your last if you aren’t careful. Of course it is good for the man to see the mountain beside his valley. It will help him appreciate what he has.
Evan Marc Katz says
One question, Rusty: Why are you here? Are you trying to make healthier relationship choices? Understand how women think better? Or are you just trolling to make women feel bad? Because even if I agree with much of what you say, your lack of empathy/diplomacy is alienating my readers. If you want to date a young foreigner, go do so. Otherwise please restrict your commentary to the question at hand, instead of pronouncements on what’s wrong with American women.
RustyLH says
Why am I here? You know…on the surface it’s an easy question, because I happened across Rory’s blog by accident, and was quite frightened by what I saw there. I was in the process of a divorce at the time, and thought, “WOW, this is what is waiting for me out there? No thanks.”
But I saw your name mentioned and it was in reference to the circular dating, and I agreed with you. So I visited your blog to see hat it was about…and lurked on a few topics. Then I just walked away from both blogs. A few days ago I found yours again by accident with a Google search.
On a deeper level, what am I looking for? I had to think about it for a few minutes after seeing your post. The best thing I can come up with is that I am searching for a glimmer of hope. Seeing the good advice you give and how it is resisted is dashing that hope. It is appearing to me to be just the same old same old by these women. My perception is that they don’t think they have a problem or are even really part of the problem. Most seem to prefer instead to shift blame. They aren’t domineering and selfish, they are strong and know what they want. It reminds me of the stereotypical couple with the wife dragging the man to the psychiatrists office and telling the psychiatrist, “Fix him. so we can have a good marriage.”
So I am looking for hope. i grew up loving American women. I did “NOT” want to come to a point in my life where I felt that boycotting American women was the answer, but it seems that answer is being forced on me. I’m not seeing a viable alternative.
The attitude is men just need to man up and understand that this is 2014, and things have changed. I think men are well aware that things have changed. I think men are well aware that things are not going to go back to the way they used to be, and I don’t think most men even want them to go back to the way they used to be. But It seems most women don’t understand that not all change is good, and often, in the beginning of big changes, a lot of bad comes with the good. The idea is to get rid of the bad and keep the good. I see little hope of that happening in the near future. It took decades to get here, so I don’t see it happening overnight…or next year.
Evan Marc Katz says
And THAT is a very reasonable post, Rusty. And I think it’s unfortunate that this site makes you lose hope. Look around – most people here are bought in to this kind of advice. I have a success stories page at the top of the page that grows regularly with women who have lived this kind of advice. So it’s not nearly as hopeless as you make it sound. I think that dating is frustrating inherently, but asking an entire gender to change – well, again, that’s exactly what you’re trying to do, and exactly what the hardcore feminists are trying to do as well. Should it be any surprise that such people sound like the most negative people around? You are right that not all change is good, but it is inevitable, and we have to adjust to it. If you’re a more “traditional” man, there are no shortage of women who long for such a relationship – yes, even here in America. I just want to remind you that you’re a bright guy, but your negative outlook is a) certainly not helping our majority-women readers and b) not helping YOU. If you believe in most of what I’m saying here, try to channel it yourself. Be the kind of man who inspires women to be their best and walk away kindly from women who don’t share your worldview. That’s all you can do, my friend.
RustyLH says
I don’t really see myself as traditional…maybe just a bit, but I see that more as compromising. Are there some things I want that may be seen as traditional? Sure. I see it as natural. I do not expect, nor want a subservient woman. Women who think that is what we look for overseas are in denial. I think it is as simple as this. Men still want to be masculine. On the Myers-Briggs, the majority of the Natural Leaders (TJ) are male. I’m one of them. We simply aren’t going to be comfortable or happier not being a leader. It is who we are. I do not see being a leader as being a tyrant or boss. Those people have incontestable power over you. I see leaders in a marriage as being more like the Pirate Captain who is chosen to be a leader by his crew, and if he wants to remain their leader, he strives to always do the right thing by his crew. They may not always agree, but over a long period, they know if he is being a good leader and if he cares about them. If he doesn’t perform his duties in a manner the crew likes, at some point they remove him from his position.
I am also not traditional in that I don’t think a woman has to stay home, but if that is what she wants to do and is willing to live off just my income, and I feel comfortable with that, then OK, maybe we can do that. Frankly, however, I don’t see that being a viable long term solution. Most women are more materialistic than men. They aren’t usually going to be happy doing that unless the man is bringing home a lot of money. So I am more than happy to support her in whatever career she chooses.
I also don’t care if she makes more money, so long as she doesn’t see that as an issue. And, even though women never supported this concept when they make less than the husband, I do not require that she split the post bills money 50/50. On the other hand, women seem to have huge issues with men not making as much as they do. That would be the only reason I would be hesitant to get into a relationship where she makes more. It would also depend on how she sees that defining our relationship. Does she assume this now means she is supposed to be the leader? If so we have a problem. I feel very comfortable in this view for myself because as a leader in the Navy, I was very popular with my crew, even though we were outperforming everybody else. I had one incident that nearly brought me to tears. I had one young petty officer that fought me tooth and nail for a long time. Then he stopped. We worked the night shift and I was the shop supervisor for that shift. We were doing (literally) ten times the work of the day shift. They blamed the flight schedule, and I showed the day supervisor that we had just as many flight on our shift. My last month there, they moved me to day shift so I could do all of the things I needed to do since I was transferring from San Diego to Pensacola, Florida.
This young man, Travis, sat in his car, parked next to mine, all day. When I walked to my car, transfer packet in hand, he got out and asked if he could talk to me. He told me that he wanted to apologize for always butting heads with me. I told him it wasn’t a problem. he said, “No…no…it was, and I was wrong. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate the way you dealt with me. After Ron took over for you as night shift supervisor, it became even more obvious how good of a leader you were, and how fair you were.” He then told me that he had a letter for me, because he was afraid he would leave something out so he spent the previous week writing it.
So I read it right there in front of him. He went on to describe how the two previous night shift supervisors had made a habit of throwing the crew under the bus when mistakes were made, never taking responsibility on themselves. But went out of their way to credit themselves when anything went right. he said that when I took over, he figured I would be just like them. He said he had become tainted. Figured that was how all leaders would act. He said he had made me pay for their misdeeds, and apologized. He then went on to describe when he realized that I was different.
See, I had spent some time building them into effective leaders after a disastrous incident on my very first day as night shift supervisor. The Chief Warrant Officer asked who was in charge and I of course said I was, and he walked up to me and said, “This is a Pig F_ck. I need to say anything more?” Red faced, I simply said, “No Sir.”
So after everything was fixed, I told my second to get everybody in the shop for a meeting. I let them know what mistakes had been made and how it basically came down to not taking responsibility for their assigned duties. Crew leaders assuming his crew had all the gear that they needed, instead of checking the tool checkout log, etc… Told them that their job wasn’t just to do their job, their job was to prove that they were capable of doing the next level up without supervision. That when they did a job and asked for it to be checked, they were telling me this was done to their standards. If it wasn’t even close to correct, it told me they weren’t even close to being ready to do my job as a QA inspector. Even in menial tasks, like cleaning the shop for an inspection, if they couldn’t be trusted to do that, I couldn’t trust them on a $40 million dollar F-14 aircraft.
He wrote that at first he resisted my making them take on their leadership roles. Thought initially that I was looking for a way to make it easier to blame them when something went wrong. But he said that since he was a crew leader, he came to enjoy not having somebody looking over ship shoulder all the time. He liked being in charge.
Then one day, before our last launch of the evening, I was told the pilot wanted to see me on the jet. So I went out there and he asked “Were you the senior person on the repairs that were just been completed a short while ago? Petty Officer O_____ (Travis) says the senior person was you. Is that correct? Because Weapons Station Four was left unsecured.”
Travis wrote,
When we were doing the repairs, you came out and asked if we needed any help. I was in charge and didn’t want you taking over so I told you that we didn’t need your help and that I had it. A few minutes later, after talking to a couple of people, you left to take care of other things. I was the senior person on the jet, and I QA’d the work. But when asked, who had been the senior person on the jet, I panicked and threw you under the bus. When the pilot asked, you looked at me, and I’m not sure what I expected you to say, but you didn’t say anything to me. I will never forget the way you looked at me, though. You looked disappointed. And, then you turned to the officer and said, “Yes sir, my fault, won’t happen again.” The Pilot looked at me, then back to you, smiled and said, “I’m confident it won’t. We’ll keep this between us.” I felt like crap. The more I think about it, I think he knew that you weren’t the senior man on the jet.
Then you pulled me aside. I remember thinking that you were going to lay into me. But all you said was, “Travis, are you sure you are ready to be a leader?” I of course said yes. So you said, “A leader takes responsibility when he screws up. You screwed up.” And then you left me standing there by myself. I felt like Sh_t.
I started watching you. Sometimes you didn’t know I was there, but several times I was outside Maintenance Control when pilots or the chiefs would compliment you on a particular job, but you always made sure they knew who actually did the work. When they said something wasn’t done right, you protected us and took responsibility.
I also observed that the chiefs and pilots knew what you were doing and talked highly of you when you weren’t around. You were also very fair with us, never playing favorites. Ron plays favorites and night shift is quickly starting to suck again.
I came to a point that I knew I wanted to be like you when my time came. But I will admit that the thought scares me. I worry that I may end up like Ron, Smitty or Rick. I don’t want my guys thinking of me like do about those guys. I wish I had more time to work with you, to learn from you.
Again, I just wanted you to know that I am sorry that I that I gave you so much crap, and I’m really sorry I threw you under the bus that day. And, I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate having the chance to work for you. You’re the best leader I’ve ever seen in my 4 years in the Navy. I hope when you get to Pensacola, you don’t have to deal with anyone like me. HAHA
And then he closed with simple well wishes.
I can tell you that it took me a couple of minutes before I could speak. When I felt I could, I looked him in the eyes, and said, “Travis, I hope I have a whole shop full of guys like you to deal with when I get there. I don’t think you have it within you to be like those three. But, until it is your time to be in charge, watch those above you, and remember what you liked and did not like about them. When it is your turn, and you come to important decisions, and you aren’t sure what to do, or the thought of what you know you should do scares you, simply remember what it was like serving under all of those leaders, and let that guide you. Take on the good in each one and reject the bad. I have no doubt that you are going to make a great leader.”
I went to shake his hand but he pulled me in for a bro-hug and said “Good luck in Pensacola.”
Last I heard, he was lighting the world on fire at NAS North Island, where he transferred to after VF-2. A guy who, when put in my charge, was expected to go nowhere…a guy labeled as a hard head…too resistant to authority. I like to believe I had a lot to do with helping him get to where he now finds himself.
If you’ve read this far, thanks for letting me toot my own horn for a minute. It was a defining moment in my life. I was not the least bit surprised when the Myers-Briggs later defined me as an ENTJ (Fieldmarshal). One of the 4 natural leaders.
Now I am on my next phase in life. Getting the degree I need to be able to work in the profession I want to work in, Information Technology. Not as much ability to lead in this field. So who will I lead. I like the idea of being the leader with a woman who is willing to grant me that privilege. Doesn’t seem like a lot of them like that idea these days. Not here anyway.
SparklingEmerald says
EMK said at 271.2.1. something or other
“Rusty, it’s time to curtail this MRA attitude, because if the irony hasn’t escaped you, it’s the exact flipside of the feminism you so decry — it’s selfish, shortsighted, and denigrates an entire gender. . . .”
Thankyou EMK, I “heart” you ! I really come here to read what YOU have to say, and to hear the relevant commentary of the thoughtful posters. These men who come here to tell us that all women are awful really pollute your blog. Thanks for calling him out on this.
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty @272.1 – There are many women who would like to be with a man who is willing to lead the relationship. I know, I am one of them. I am NOT looking for Macho Neanderthal who wants to club me over the head and drag me to his man cave, but what I want a man who is decisive and willing to lead the relationship with kindness. I want a worthy leader. Not someone who is going to lead us off a cliff. Not some woman hater who is going to try and bully his way into the leadership role, because he thinks he is entitled to that role by virtue of possessing a penis, but is willing to prove that he is capable and would do so with OUR best interest in mind, not for his own purely self serving interests. In fact, until I met the guy I am seeing now, I was continually frustrated that I seemed to attract nothing but wimps.
You seem to think that all American women are bossy bitches out to screw men over. Despite your long rambling story of how you are the best leader in the whole wide world, perhaps you are with co-workers, but I can’t imagine a woman looking to you as a leader, since you look at EVERY American woman with a jaundiced eye. Even tho’ many American women would love a loving leader, you don’t come off as loving toward women, you come across as bitter and myogynist. What woman would want to be led by a man who hates her for her gender and nationality ? You continually talk about the stereotypes American Women make about foreign women, yet you do NOTHING but stereotype American women and say how awful we are.
RustyLH says
What a disappointing post. II see one big difference between us. If you had shared a moment in your life, a defining moment, when you had a big impact on another person, I would not denigrate that.
As for the rest, you assume, based on my venting here. But you know nothing about me in real life. I have zero doubt that you couldn’t pick me out of 4 people if you met me, because you have built a preconceived notion of how I am in real life. What you saw here is that I am fed up. That’s all. If I met an American woman I felt was worth it, I would marry her. I just don’t have much hope in finding one that meets what I am looking for. Even here, supposedly bright, well read, intelligent women just fly off the handle. I prefer a woman who knows how to use her intelligence and femininity to be a calming factor in my life, not bring drama…not escalate tensions.
I’ve also seen women here advocate lying to a man they want to marry by having sex with other men but keep that a secret…while they wait for the first guy to decide he wants to get married. On other blogs, such as Rory’s, I’ve seen even more extremely disturbing stuff. Even major control freaks.
The problem as I see it is that our society right now is that even otherwise sane women fall back on some seriously disturbing notions, encouraged by social norms of the present day. I equate it to a 1950s man who is basically a decent guy, and loves his wife dearly, but because of the social norms of the day, he saw his wife as inferior, and under stress, that would rear it’s ugly head.
And finally, you have to resort to name calling, such as misogynist. Maybe you intelligent women can learn to debate intelligently without resorting to ad hominem tactics just once when you disagree with somebody? Hmmm? Pretty please? With sugar on top? Maybe try to leave emotion out of it and use logic instead? Here…I’ll show you how.
Am I a misogynist? Well let’s see if this qualifies.
For 14 years I turned over my whole paycheck and allowed my wife to run the finances, even though I earned the majority of the money.
I supported my wife when she returned to school, even though I had major misgivings about Sanford Brown, with it having law suits against it. But it was her decision and so I left her to her business.
Even at times where I was the only breadwinner in the house, I still helped out with chores, and over that 14 years, I cooked more of the dinners. Way more. In fact, I was a better cook. I’ve been cooking since well before I hit double digits thanks to a mom who insisted I learn to take care of myself. Baking…that was her thing, she was better at that than I was. I could do it, but she was better. I was better at cooking things from scratch, and even just looking at what we had and throwing something together that tasted really good.
I did laundry just the same as her. Oh, and even during the times when I was the only one working, not only did i help out around the house cooking and cleaning, I still did ALL of the typical manly chores, like mowing the lawn.
I never took anybody’s side against my wife in public. She did that regularly against me. I kept score. It was easy. Every time that happened…every time, I was able to prove that I had been right. She actually admitted once that she did it because she didn’t want to appear to be a sycophant wife that supported her husband by default. Before we even started dating she made it clear she had misgivings about marriage and relationships in that she had a fear of being made a second class citizen. She tried many times to use that as an excuse for acting in the very manner that she didn’t want a man acting.
I never once talked bad about her behind her back while we were married. She made a habit of it.
I never talked about our sex life with friends or family. She did.
She always got the good car. First good one I had, I still have. A Silverado.
Even when we were separated, and her car broke down, I let her use my truck, and rode my bike 25 miles round trip in my daily commute for a week while her car was being repaired.
Oh yeah, I paid for the parts and the repairs.
Not once did I ever treat her as an inferior.
I have no problems voting for female politicians. I think we MUST have females in government.
I served under some females in the Navy. Never saw the difference between that and when I was served under a man. I just did my job.
I see no difference between my female professors and the male professors.
What I do have is little hope of finding a woman who matches what I want. Not in this country. If that makes me a misogynist, well…I’ll just LOL.
Evan Marc Katz says
All of your grievances are fair. Your conclusion that “American” women are all the same is completely off.
RustyLH says
Can completely buy that. But it really seems like they are like a needle in a haystack. This isn’t just a case of needing to recalibrate. I am seeing legitimate deal breakers in women everywhere I turn…when I turn here.
I also don’t like to “run game” and I am sure in your field, you have looked into that and seen how guys can make that work and I know for a fact it works and guys I know have tried to get me to really learn it. i would like you take on that stuff. My opinion is that while it works to get the girl, it doesn’t work to keep the girl. At some point, you just want to relax and be yourself. But it works and is IMHO addictive to women. They want the nice guys to talk to them like that. But we don’t lie it because it seems dishonest. So nice guys are left to be thought of as boring. We aren’t tripping all the right signals right on cue, giving her brain candy.
I wanted to tell you that I had finally figured out one of the reasons I preferred foreign women. I can just be a nice guy and that is enough for them to be passionate about you. You don’t have to be a bad boy. You don’t have to be a player. You can just be an honest and nice guy.
i’ll leave it there. But I would actually love to see you address this “game” stuff and how you think that might affect how women look for guys once they have had this happen to them several times. And by what I have seen in my own experience, guys have really been buying into it for several years now. I know most women would probably proudly decry that they have never fell for it, but i would be more inclined to believe that they have, and didn’t know it. Just thought the guy was cool, and liked him. If the guy is good at it, she doesn’t even know he’s doing it, and many are very good at it.
SparklingEmerald says
273.1 – OK Rusty LH – I apologize for the snarky remark about your leadership role that you described. It was obviously a proud moment for you, and I shouldn’t have belittled it. I know it’s hard to read tone on a blog, but I really mean it. OK ?
But you constantly go on about how ALL American women are so awful and since I’m an American woman . . . who just wants to love a good man (and he may have found me, but it’s too soon to say) well, you are insulting me with your remarks, even if it’s a blanket insult of my gender/nationality combo.
OK, I get that you are venting, and your annoymous blog vents don’t reflect how you act in the real world. Your in person persona is probably very different.
I vent on this blog too, and have been told that I can’t possibly be one way on this blog (frustrated, especially since this is a blog devoted to the ONE & ONLY thing in my life I struggle with) and then put it away on a date. (OH, but I can 🙂 ) HELLO !!!!! How about being “in the moment !” When I am venting on this blog, that is one moment. When I am with a guy having a great time on a date, that is a completely different moment. The girl in her rag tag t-shirt & flip flops getting pissy at a blog commenter calling all American women terrible, selfish, etc. is not the same girl in heels and a dress laughing & getting cozy & kissy on the couch at the wine bar with her new boyfriend.
Your marriage experience sounds similar to mine. It was good for about the first half, then took a spiraling nosedive. I did my very best to be a loving and devoted wife, nursed my hubby when sick, and he verbally abused me & my son if we got sick. Stayed home for five years at his request to raise our child, let him come & go as he pleased with his sports buddies, over looked a lot of his shortcomings, only to have him tell me at 23 years that he only married me because he thought I was cute and he wanted to be a father. And thanks for the baby, but I don’t need your services as a brood mare any more, good bye ! I felt like I had 23 years of my life STOLEN from me by a womb digger ! (But how can I totally regret it, we dug a pretty awesome son out of my womb ! )
Even when I worked full time after our son was in school, did the grocery shopping & meal making, housework, acted as his personal clothes shopper since he was color blind, typed his resumes, took care of all the social niceties such as RSVPing to weddings, purchasing the gifts, and taking his suit to the dry cleaners, and did all the majoring chauffering of our son, he demanded that I do lawn work too. And complained that HE was the one who handled calling the repairmen when major appliances broke down. He called that “doing everything” around here.
So I feel your pain Rusty. Really I do A shitty marriage can do that to a person.
My rebound boyfriend was a foreigner. I too thought that maybe I would have better luck with a non American. I had this fantasy that because he wasn’t American, he would know how to treat a woman. WRONG. He treated me well until I agreed to be exclusive, then he turned into a crappy boyfriend and the sexiness of his foreigness, nor his good looks helped. I dated another foreigner after that. Not much better. So now I evaluate men on their merits, not their nationality, or height, or income. (within reason, I’m not going out with homeless men that I feel zero attraction for)
You can spend tons of money on overseas trip, and you could just end up with another crappy girlfriend with a foreign accent. Or you could take your chances with women here in the states, and instead of looking at their nationality, look at how they treat you and how they make you feel.
DUMP the ones who treat you like crap, whatever their nationality. (the cheaters, the liars, the female players, the flakes and the “Rules” girls) The nice girls that you just aren’t attracted to, kindly wish them well in their search. When you find a sexy, sweet, girl that floats your boat, who wants to love you and respect you, KEEP HER for yourself, regardless of her nationality, and don’t make her guess where she stands.
Here is what I learned from the last half of my marriage (the crappy part). And what EMK tells us ladies, but applies to men as well. If a relationship partner mistreats you, GET OUT !
Evan Marc Katz says
Nice job, SE.
henriette says
I second EMK. Nicely done, Sparkling Emerald! And, by the by, WOOT on your new boyfriend!!
tamara says
In response to your comment under #273.1.1: I wish u’d stop talking about this ‘game’ thingee so much. I don’t think it’s as effective as u think. The only 2 guys I’ve ever loved have been the Nice guys–the kind who call, who make a girl feel loved etc. Unfortunately I was too young to fully appreciate them. If I’d ever felt that a guy was playing games, or sending mixed signals, or not being himself, I would’ve been so turned off. Because a great guy doesn’t have to use bizarre tactics to win over a girl. I’ve dated some of those player types, and it was such a turn-off, I got out as soon as I realised and didn’t miss them at all. After all, I can be with a ‘nice’ guy with their good traits (such as confidence and charm) who lacks their bad traits.
The thing is, I’m non-American, and I’m scared that u’ll fit me into your hypothesis of ‘non-American women like nice guys, American women like bad boys’. I don’t really think it’s true. I know many American women, and while their outward behavior can be a bit louder and sometimes more abrasive than that of women from other countries (huge generalisations of cos), I haven’t sensed that inside they are all that different, in their desires. Living in a cosmopolitan city, I’ve dated guys from various different countries–I don’t find that guys from one country are extremely different from guys from another. Btw western media pervades most modern societies, so that is slowly westernising/Americanising women from foreign countries, further reducing any differences which are already not that significant.
Btw like I said, I have never been susceptible to those guys who play games, but after hearing u talk about it, I’m gonna read up on some of those ‘game’ tactics u talk about, and the moment any guy tries using it on me, I’m ditching him for sure. Gonna warn my gfs too 🙂
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty – EMK addressed “game” a little over a year ago in response to a question sent in by your truly. (Moi) It’s called “How do I make sense of all the dating advice out there”.
I’ll admit that I’ve fallen for a bad boy a time or two in my youth. (My first husband was the quintessential bad boy, I knew it and married him anyway, dumb, dumb, dumb)
But that doesn’t mean nice guys never get the girl. As EMK says, we want a “nice guy” with balls. That’s all.
RustyLH says
SE, I think you and Evan misunderstand what I am talking about when I mention “GAME.” There seems to be more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to game and it seems that men have to figure out which version works for them. Most people when thinking about think of a guy being a dick, but in reality it’s more like being a smooth talker, and if it don’t work it wouldn’t be smooth. Tat must be pointed out because I think most of us, when we hear the term smooth talker, we envision a greasy character that we can spot a mile away. In reality, we are usually better at spotting them in hindsight than when they are in front of us. And I am sure there are women just like those smooth talkers, though they don’t seem to be teaching it on the net.
Now this is the point. I have seen women here and on other blogs admit that when you are totally totally into a guy, you have difficulty maintaining your cool. Well news flash…it’s the same for guys. The difference is, guys are looking for signs that you are really into him…remember, we are looking for a woman that makes us feel like a king. So when a woman can’t keep her cool, when she is over the moon for us, it is flattering and gets our attention. So it can work for you. Your danger is that the man you are over the moon for might be scum.
For men, this does not work and here is why. Women aren’t initially looking for the guy that makes her feel good. Not like that. In fact, if a guy makes you feel like that initially you become turned off. This is why the direct nice guy approach does not work. It gets you shot down. I believe what is going on, even if on a subconscious level is that if a guy is over the moon for you, something in you mind screams…”If he is that over the top for me, I must be able to do better.” One of the key elements in “Game” is to make the women feel she is not so special. To knock her down a peg or two. Knock her off her pedestal, Knock her off her high horse. But you can’t be a dick about it. It is subtle. If it were as easy as being a dick, it wouldn’t need to be taught. Any guy, or girl can be a dick. You have to do so in a way that doesn’t make her angry at you. This is one form of game, and this is the one used when the woman gives off an attitude that she is too good for you. Remember the story about Jessica Alba? I am sure she felt she was better than that guy, but in one question, he was able to circumvent that and put her in the position of having to prove to him that she had value. She recognized it because she knew it was coming. Most women never see it coming. So it will have the same affect, but she won’t realize what is happening like Jessica did.
I’ve seen videos where they are running a completely different kind of game. One where the woman may not feel she is out of his league, but she is just hesitant, reluctant, maybe has a boyfriend…but not over the moon for him, etc… This method, they develop some way to keep her engaged and talking and literally steers her like a cat. Not easy to do but can be done with determination. There is still a little element of leveling the playing field as above but much more subtle.
OK, my point here again is that if I am totally over the moon for a girl, it is not going to be easy to act confident, and the key word there is act and that goes for any man that is over the moon for you. If he really isn’t acting confident and just is, then you aren’t that special in his eyes. The point here is that I can be confident in everything I do. I usually am a very confident person. But, if the woman is all that, in my eyes, I may appear a bit nervous. Maybe blush a bit..not sure on that one. Heart rate will be up. Adrenaline will be pumping. Palms sweaty, etc..
But nervous is not attractive to women. The only conclusion I can come up with is that women aren’t looking for a guy that is over the moon for her…they are looking for a man that they are over the moon for, and this guy by definition will not be over the moon for her. Why? Because he has to have so much going for him that he knows he has his pick…and he picks YOU. So aren’t you special. Except that if he isn’t nervous, he wasn’t that into you. Maybe he does pick you, but only because the three he wants are all taken, and he needs somebody to tide him over until one of those three becomes available, or one like them comes along.
I saw a documentary, maybe Even knows of it. I can’t remember the name, but they interviewed couples that had 20 to 60 years together. They learned many things from these couples. One thing that surprised them was that when they initially met, the men all knew right away that either they DID want her for a wife, or knew she might be who he wanted. They all said that she was their idea of their ideal woman. Not one of the women thought that initially, but over time came around to that belief.
Now of course, knowing what I know, I highly doubt any of those men professed their live immediately or told those women that they wanted to marry them in the first 3 months. Had they done so, had they been honest, I don’t think they would be married.
Maybe this has deeper affects…the fact that to be successful, men have to be sneaky, lie, etc… I know some may say, but no, just be honest, and confident. No, that does not work. Again, i am saying that if a man is totally over the moon for a woman, he must not show that. he has to in effect, lie about his true feelings.
Let me link a video here. It’s a proposal that went viral. At the end, when he is proposing to her, he tells her that he knew the moment he laid eyes on her that he wanted her. I have heard many men say this about their wives. But I can guarantee you that not one of them went up to her and said, “I am totally awestruck by you. I am marriage minded and honestly, I think I would like to marry you, but I want to get to know you first. Would you be interested in dating me?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVTr5MNa_8Y
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m pretty sick of the “I knew from the moment I saw you” stories. For every one of those that turned out right, there are 100 “I just knew” moments that imploded. I didn’t know my wife was the right one until six months after we were married. I know this isn’t the point of your story entirely – but it’s worth mentioning. Fact is: the second you put someone up on a pedestal, he/she is looking down at you. That’s not gender specific. Nor is the “game” you’re talking about here. It’s about having confidence and self-awareness. Works for everyone everywhere.
RustyLH says
Evan, how do you explain so many men saying that?
Also, not everyone has the same perspective as you because you have training and education, and EXPERIENCE in this field that most men don’t. So of course you would see it very differently. But I really question that, “I knew she was the one six months after we were married.” really? You would marry somebody without knowing they were the one you wanted to spend the rest of your life with?
Maybe you are confusing knowing you wanted that with knowing it would workout. My mother once confided in me that she had been hurt so many times, and disappointed so many times before meeting my dad that it took her 15 years of being married to him before realized that she felt 100% sure he would never hurt her.
I remember thinking several things. I lost a bit of respect for her. I had always viewed her as strong, but that felt very weak to me. 15 years? It also seemed disrespectful to my dad…to me. I guess I felt that if you are paying attention to the other person, you will learn that much faster. Anyway, I would say that my mom probably knew that moment that she wanted my dad to marry her that she wanted him to never hurt her, but actually believing in her heart and mind that he would not came much later.
So what I am saying is that a man could meet a woman at a party, like what he sees, then pay close attention to how she interacts with other people, and how she interacts with him, and then KNOW that he wants her. Oh sure, in the process of making that happen, he may find out things that changes his mind, or she may have other ideas, and he is back to the drawing board, but if it does work out, it makes perfect sense that he would look back and remember that where he is at is exactly where he wanted to be the day he met her and made the decision, “I want.”
My point was that I think men and women are similar in that it is going to be very very very easy to appear to be very confident when you aren’t really into somebody. It only makes sense. Imagine watching a huge football game, maybe the Michigan Ohio State game. I’ll assume that you don’t care much about either team. I am a die hard Ohio State fan. Now suppose I invite you over to watch the game. If it is a very close game, and gets down to the last minute with the end uncertain, a casual observer will be able to tell which of us cares about the outcome, because I care and you don’t and that will be easy to see.
It seems that these days, you can meet somebody that you very quickly become passionate about. But both men and women are told to hide that. Play it cool. I don’t think everyone is the same in this regard because where it may work to get a man, when a woman is doing that with some other guy, for me it is a turn off…if she is so good at it as to be successful. I don’t get passionate about women who play it cool. Maybe because for me, I will feed off of her interest a bit. It can work very well for me if I can see that she is very interested, and trying to keep a lid on it and failing miserably. That can be cute actually. But I don’t like aloof women, and if she is succeeding at playing it cool, she will come across as aloof.
I have a really awesome story of a girl I met in Australia, my first time in Sydney. She was a 10. I didn’t think I could be more attracted to her. As it turns out, she, her sister, and her two friends were going to the same event I was going to. So, SHE, asked me to be her escort, but she was very nervous about asking me. My attraction for her doubled. To this day, I regret not pursuing her for a relationship. I never met anyone who could make me feel over the top like she could. And not surprisingly, that is due to the combination of her looks and the way she made me feel. If I knew then what I know now, I would have made her my focus, finished the time I had left on my contract, and then joined the Australian military, to make it feasible to move there. I have zero doubt that we would be together had I done that
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty said “I’ve also seen women here advocate lying to a man they want to marry by having sex with other men but keep that a secret…”
Rusty, that is ONE woman, not plural women. She is the minority view on this blog. She does not represent women in general or American women. Most women abhor tactics like that. That isn’t even what RR advocates. She does advocate sexless dating of other men, and I can’t even get on board with that, as I find that very manipulative. (even “sexless” dating is unacceptable, because if you narrowly define sex as intercourse only, that leaves much room for physical intimacy, which is still cheating IMO)
Of course, things are a bit different for me, than for a younger women desiring motherhood. I’ve had my child and I am well beyond my child bearing years. I’ve had two disappointing marriages, so marriage is no longer on my “must have” list. In fact, for quite a while after my hubby betrayed me, marriage was on my “Must Flee from list” But the passage of time, and some things EMK has said about marriage has at least put in the realm of possibility for me, if I met a really awesome man who wanted to make it legal. (EMK is a real cheerleader for marriage)
As for players, I’ve walked away from a few of them since my latest divorce. I don’t play games.
As for men who mistreat me, I’ll walk, even if they started off treating me well (they usually do). Even if we’ve made the legal comittment of marriage. (and if I ever do say “I do” again, I will get a pre-nup, to protect us BOTH, and our children from other unions)
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty said: “For men, this does not work and here is why. Women aren’t initially looking for the guy that makes her feel good. Not like that. In fact, if a guy makes you feel like that initially you become turned off. This is why the direct nice guy approach does not work. It gets you shot down. I believe what is going on, even if on a subconscious level is that if a guy is over the moon for you, something in you mind screams…”If he is that over the top for me, I must be able to do better.” One of the key elements in “Game” is to make the women feel she is not so special. To knock her down a peg or two. Knock her off her pedestal, Knock her off her high horse.”
Rusty – Quit reading that PUA or MRA or Ask Men garbage.
If a woman is riding around on a high horse, don’t knock her off of it, move on and find a nice girl with her feet planted firmly on the ground.
The guy I am seeing now is proof that nice guys don’t always finish last. He hasn’t put me on a pedestal and he hasn’t knocked my down a peg. We make each other feel good. If he felt the need to “knock me down a peg”, I’d be gone.
No games playing here, just two people who like each other, are getting to know each other, and who knows . . .
Maybe I’m a freak of nature as a woman, but if I’m seeing a man, and I don’t feel good about it . . . I’m gone.
RustyLH says
I don’t read MRA “crap” as you put it. But interesting that you call it crap. Is feminist stuff “crap?”
But I have watched some of the PUA stuff, and first learned of it watching Dr. Phil, and it does work. But after looking into it a bit, I notice that some people have a lot of misconceptions about it.
For instance, you say that if a man felt tried to knock you down a beg, you would walk away. I am saying that after watching it done, you don’t even know it is being done. Secondly, take a look at all of the messages being aimed at women in many different forms. The fact is many of you have unrealistic expectations. Often a good guy tries to talk to, maybe in a club or at a party, and you have your walls up so high, he has to do something just to get you to want to engage in conversation.
I remember an older 80s movie, two women were getting themselves dolled up to go out to a club. When they finished, the one girl put her arm around the other as they looked at themselves in the mirror, and said, “Better than mortal men deserve.” Yeah, she needed to be knocked down a peg. Sorry, but no..not better than mortal men deserve. That’s just a movie but that is the very attitude that many men face in women. Again, I have seen this stuff work.
We are also not talking about IN a relationship we are talking about a first meeting. My point was that with so many guys using this stuff, it could make a genuinely nice man, good man, confident man seem less so when his game appears to be less than the PUA. Again my point being that it genuinely appears to be very well tuned to tap into what women need to hear.
I will fully admit that I am not a PUA. I tend to do much much better with women who have spent time around me. Women who have gotten to see who I really am. These women pursue me, not the other way around. Unfortunately, none of them are what I am looking for.
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty asked “I don’t read MRA “crap” as you put it. But interesting that you call it crap. Is feminist stuff “crap?”
Even Evan told you to stop with MRA attitude, but here’s my opinion of the whole thing . . . I think ANY website that promotes hatred of the opposite gender is “crap”. If it’s women promoting man-hating or MRA groups promoting hatred of women. It’s all crap. There’s a reason I don’t like to call myself a feminist. Not because I think women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, pursue careers, have equal credit access, etc. but because some groups pollute the term with a ton of misandry that I can’t tolerate. Or complain about petty BS, or put down women like me, who like to dress feminine (dresses, heels, make up, etc) and who stayed home for 5 years to be with my dear son. Or promote laws that favor women in child custody decisions. I don’t think all women who call themselves feminists promote misandry, hate stay at home moms, or think women should adopt the dress, hairstyles and mannerisms of men, but enough do, that I don’t want to be associated with the term. I prefer to think of myself as a humanist anyway. Even tho the far right wing fundamentalists have turned that into a dirty word as well.
As far as you saying that some women need to be knocked down a peg, I call BS. If a woman’s that stuck up, why bother ? Why not find a nice girl who thinks mortal men are awesome, instead of some snooty bitch who needs to be knocked down a peg ? Men complain that “nice guys” don’t get anywhere, then promote this crap about acting like a cocky douche bag & looking for a snooty bitch to knock down a peg. Why not find a nice girl to begin with ? Maybe it’s nice girls who finish last, because men are paying the big bucks to learn how to “neg” a bitch into the bedroom.
And speaking of “snooty girls”, it could be that the girl isn’t really snooty, but she’s just not into a particular guy who is targeting her. Maybe she doesn’t want to lead him on. I don’t think insulting a woman (apparently with such skill that she doesn’t even know she’s being insulted) is going to get a girl who isn’t into a guy to suddenly like him.
Also, I think the whole “You don’t understand PUA” is just another load of BS from the PUA industry itself. Another way of trying to knock women down a peg. If women say they don’t agree with PUA tactics, rather than acknowledge that she disagrees with the tactics, PUA just say she doesn’t “understand” it, thus implying that she’s just stupid.
RustyLH says
As I stated, I am not a PUA. I stated that what they do works. Also, not all of it is “negging.” Negging is done when a girl has too high of an opinion of herself, or is basically giving off a not interested vibe…yeah she is talking to the guy but just not really giving it a chance because she has this huge wall up. Unless Tim Tebow walks in, she’s not going to perk up.
It’s often that girls will go into the club, look around and start eliminating guys…sort of ranking them. Guys of course do this too. So some PUA techniques seem to be used to make her realize that she may have misjudged you. And, it is very likely that she is being unrealistic in eliminating the guys that would make a great partner for her while holding out for the guys that aren’t going to .
You seem to be hung up on terminology. Maybe it is better to say, if a girl is acting as if she is too good for him, the guy simply hold up a mirror and says, have a good long look…you aren’t out of my league. In my opinion, that is what the guy did with Jessica Alba on that TV show. In an instant she went from a feeling of being too good for the guy to being made to face that fact that she is in fact quite human and mortal, and not too good for him.
I should also note that while I am sure that a lot of guys go out to learn those PUA tactics so they can just be a PUA. But I am also sure that some guys are just tired of striking out with quality women and want to find just one good quality woman. I am leery of that because I still see it as being fake, and in the end, will she feel that she was duped into seeing you as more than you are. I would rather just let a woman learn that I am a good guy and accept me for who I am. Like I said, I seem to do very well with women who know the real me. But it takes time to know the real me. I don’t work on my “game” trying to be better at picking women up.
Most of my ex-girlfriends and my ex-wife were much better than average looking. Not perfect 10’s, but good looking women. Not one of them that are fat. I simply don’t have anything in common with fat women. If a woman is fat, she isn’t going to want to hike/camp the Grand Canyon (on my bucket list.). She isn’t going to want to go for long bike rides. I’ve ridden my bike many many miles. I’ve always been active. I want a woman that will help be more active, not less. Being in school, i really need a woman that can do that…get me away from my studies to go for an enjoyable walk, work out, go swimming, walk the beach, anything active. I just started working out more because I now live 4 blocks from the school so no more 25 mile round trip bike rides. So I put on some pounds. Don’t like that, so I am doing something about it. Nobody has to accept being overweight. It’s a choice. I choose not to be grossly overweight. If I even put on some pounds and start to look overweight, I don’t like it and so do something about it. I want the same thing in a woman. In this area, I don’t like excuses, and that’s what most people have.
SparklingEmerald says
Rusty LH said “Negging is done when a girl has too high of an opinion of herself, or is basically giving off a not interested vibe…yeah she is talking to the guy but just not really giving it a chance because she has this huge wall up. Unless Tim Tebow walks in, she’s not going to perk up.
It’s often that girls will go into the club, look around and start eliminating guys…sort of ranking them. Guys of course do this too. (my note: yes we ALL do it, but in the PUA community, men are entitled to do this, women are not) So some PUA techniques seem to be used to make her realize that she may have misjudged you. And, it is very likely that she is being unrealistic in eliminating the guys that would make a great partner for her while holding out for the guys that aren’t going”
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That whole diatribe smacks of entitlement. And making assumptions. Perhaps when these PUA clowns are peacocking around in whatever clown suit de-jour they are wearing to call attention to themselves, maybe THAT’s the reason the girl just isn’t into him. And you know, every time a girl isn’t interested in a guy, doesn’t mean she thinks she is “better” than him, but she just isn’t attracted to him.
If a guy refuses to approach a girl at a party, because he’s not interested, is it because he’s a snob that thinks he too good for her? Should she go up to him and insult him to knock him down a peg ?
Why is the man allowed to decide that a woman isn’t good looking enough to approach, and he’s still an OK guy, but if a girl isn’t sufficiently attracted to a guy, she’s a snob who needs to be taken down a peg or two ? Why must all women give every man who approaches them “a chance” ? Why is it assumed that she is somehow “wrong” to refuse his advances ? Maybe he’s coming off as an arrogant douche bag himself ? Maybe HE’S coming off as thinking HE is superior, and that’s what is turning the girl off, not that she thinks SHE is better than him. Or maybe there is something overtly sexual about his approach, and she doesn’t like being treated like a piece of meat. (or a “target” to use PUA terminology)
PUA works with some girls (usually girls with low self esteem to begin with, not the snobs) Of course, the internet communities only tell their “success” stories and probably make up a few whoppers along the way.
And I noticed you didn’t answer my question, instead of trying to trick the so called “snooty girl” into bed, why not try and find a nice girl who doesn’t have walls to knock down to begin with ?
With the PUA community, it’s all a “game”. The cute, sweet, “7” girl who smiles and is responsive is not a challenging enough “target”. They think that only girls who are 9’s or 10’s are good enough for them, so while they wouldn’t even dream of giving a nice girl who is a 7 or 8 a chance, then call the girl who is a 9 a snob in need of a good negging. Doesn’t matter if the PUA is himself only a 6. He has a sense of entitlement that all smoking hot women owe him a chance. Instead of considering that it is his own arrogant sense of entitlement that is off putting to women, he simply makes his “target” in the wrong.
You know what else works too ? Treating women like, you know, they are human, not trophies or targets to be shot down by arrogant, entitled PUAs.
I’m glad you stay in shape, since that is a (reasonable) requirement you have for a romantic partner. I have seen some really fat men, go on an on in their diatribes against fat women. I have personally known two very overweight men who were very vocal about their desire/entitlement for a slim attractive woman, even tho they were overweight and unattractive themselves. I don’t really dislike these men for their weight problem but it is their sheer hypocrisy that turns me off. (and no, even if they weren’t routinely bashing fat women, I wouldn’t consider a grossly overweight man as a partner, because I wouldn’t be attracted, and I enjoy a somewhat active lifestyle myself ) I don’t mind a man with a few extra pounds, but I just can’t be with someone grossly overweight.
Karmic Equation says
An “ad hominem” attack from you, Chance (271.2)? I thought better of you.
So you’re saying that it’s OK for a man to disrespect a woman, but a woman shouldn’t withdraw the ONE thing that a man values above even love — “monogamous sex” — to show him how much his disrespect hurts her?
You’re right in that we don’t need to kill ants with a sledgehammer. However, if your only real weapon is a sledgehammer, why refrain from using it?
And Ladies, you all heard it here. From this quorum of 5 men:
“No man proposes to a woman who is dating other men.” – EMK 269.2
“If you’re unwilling to commit to exclusively date before your engaged, then every intelligent, sane man will choose not to propose. He won’t even emotionally invest himself in the relationship.” – Karl R in response to 269.2.1
“Your arguments that circle dating would work if the woman hides it from her partner frighten me. A woman (or man) who would do that would be a prime candidate for future cheating, IMHO. It would definitely not inspire trustworthiness.” – Jeremy 269.4.1
“As for circular dating. The last women I would ever give a marriage proposal is to a woman that is dating other men. So the simple fact is, if a woman starts right off telling me that she wants to circular date, I will do one of two things. Continue to date her for the companionship while I look for somebody worth committing to, or I will drop her flat right there. Jeremy is right. It is up to her to prove that she is worth making that huge commitment to.” – RustyLH in response to 269.4.1
“A woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to propose. Heck, a woman would need to be monogamous in order for me to introduce her to my friends/family.” – John 271.1
Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.
So you can love a man to pieces, be devoted to him with all your being, be supportive of his dreams, be appreciative of his efforts — but don’t expect a proposal from him unless you ALSO give him monogamous sex on top of all that. It’s not enough that you give him all the above PLUS sex. But it must needs be MONOGAMOUS sex.
So what does that mean, ladies? It means that what men value most in women is not love, appreciation, supportiveness, not even sex, but rather MONOGAMOUS sex.
So why are so many women so quick to offer MONOGAMOUS sex to men — something that men prize SO HIGHLY — that they would not PROPOSE without it…WITHOUT DEMANDING SOMETHING OF EQUIVALENT VALUE IN RETURN?
What do YOU prize as highly? Shouldn’t it be MARRIAGE that you trade for MONOGAMOUS sex? If he won’t give you marriage without monogamous sex from you, then why should you give him monogamous sex without AT LEAST the PROMISE of marriage (e.g., engagement?) — If you’re happy that he simply agrees to be your boyfriend before sex — THAT is “settling” in a BIG WAY — and this male-dominated culture has you believing you’ve won something of value when he’s getting monogamous sex from you with no guarantee of a future to you. And most women have happily bought in to that way of thinking without even questioning it.
Think outside the box for a change. Things aren’t always what they seem. You don’t need to be paranoid. Just aware.
Evan Marc Katz says
You usually make sense, Karmic, but I really have no idea what you’re doing here.
You’re suggesting that women hold out sex until engagement? Like the 1950’s? I don’t think women want to do that. I don’t think men want to do that.
Men are telling you what we want. We want to propose to our monogamous girlfriends with whom we’re having sex. That’s pretty much the way everyone does it anyway. The only reason we’re having this discussion is because Rori (falsely) thinks that men will propose to non-monogamous women. Now you’re suggesting we propose to women before we have sex at all?
Here’s one thing I’ve learned in a decade as a dating coach – advice doesn’t work unless it’s acceptable to BOTH genders. Your advice and Rori’s advice sounds like it was lab-tested on women but never approved by men.
Karmic Equation says
“You’re suggesting that women hold out sex until engagement?”
Not at all. I wouldn’t have any fun under that scenario! haha — I’m suggesting women don’t go offering/requiring sexclusivity until engagement. She should have sex with him — all the time, as much as they both can stand 🙂 Just not monogamously and don’t advertise she’s dating other guys.
Rori Raye’s CD philosophy is for women who CANNOT or WILL NOT break up with their BAD BOYFRIENDS, for whatever reason (e.g., loves him too much, can’t stand to live without him, yada yada) — those women need to make themselves circular date as the step before breaking up.
Personally, I’d break up first, but some women can’t do that cold turkey. Those women need to do something if their boyfriends are being bad boyfriends (and to whom she’s communicated her concerns) but just can’t/won’t break up with him. She can tell him she’s cd’ing if she wants to. But if she TELLS him she’s circular dating THEN she’s trying to blackmail him into changing, imo. If she doesn’t tell him, treats him the same, while CD’ing then there is no blackmail. He can change – or not- as he sees fit. He just no longer has her monogamy because he broke the bf/gf contract by refusing to meet her needs.
John says
KarmicEquation said:
Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.
Karmic- the reason nobody mentioned those things is because that’s not what the topic of the post is about. If the topic was about the importance of being supportive, that would have been discussed. The monogamous part in that case wouldn’t be mentioned but it surely would be implied without having to say it. Same thing here.
KarmicEquation said:
Just not monogamously and don’t advertise she’s dating other guys.
Karmic- You have mentioned this sort of thing in prior posts. But do you really think that guys are that dumb that they couldn’t figure out after a while she is dating other guys? I can understand hiding it and having the guy be oblivious for a month or two. But if you are on the verge of proposing, then we are talking many months, if not years. You really think a guy wouldn’t be able to suspect and figure out she was dating other men even if she didn’t advertise it?
Jeremy says
Ah, I am beginning to get it (I think). So, in your mind, circle dating is not a ploy to find a man who will be willing to propose, but rather an exit strategy for someone who wants to break up but needs another relationship to do it? Not at all unlike someone who wants to divorce their spouse and has an affair to “give themselves permission.” I happen not to think highly of this strategy, but that is just my own opinion.
I wonder what would happen, though, if a woman was covertly circle-dating and got a proposal from a man who thought she was being monogamous (ie. she was lying to him the whole time/hiding the truth). If he found out about it, do you think he would keep the engagement? I think he would not. I think he would feel pretty betrayed, and that he would be justified in that feeling (what, with the lying and all).
Or are you hoping that he won’t find out, and that the future marriage will be based on a lie?
It seems, from some of your past arguments, that you are putting the horse very much in front of the cart. Demanding commitment (in the form of engagement/marriage) before adequate information can be gathered to ensure the wisdom of the commitment. The difference between the woman “gifting” the man with monogamous sex, and the man “gifting” the woman with a proposal (I hesitate to use those terms, but this seems to be how you view it) – is that the man’s “gift” is perpetual whereas the woman’s can be withdrawn at her discretion with no legal, moral, or financial consequences to her. We are not comparing apples to apples here, Karmic.
It is interesting that, as I understand your comments, you equate not having proposed marriage with being a “bad boyfriend.” One can be an EXCELLENT boyfriend – loving, attentive to her needs, supportive of her dreams, sexually giving, etc. – and still not be ready to commit to marriage because one is still uncertain if she is what he is ultimately looking for in a wife and mother for his future kids (if he even knows what that would look like at that point in his life). It is one thing to say that she has the right to break up with him for not being certain, but another thing entirely to accuse him of being a bad boyfriend and go out and cheat on him behind his back.
Regardless, I agree with EMK. If the purpose of circle-dating is to find a husband, no man will commit marriage to a woman who is still dating around (unless he has very low self-opinion or her income is higher and he is a gold-digger). If, as you say, it is simply an exit strategy – then I may think it is unethical, but at that point it really doesn’t matter so much what the man in the relationship thinks, since he is about to be dumped anyway.
RustyLH says
Karmic said – Anyone mention love? Appreciation? Supportiveness? Being secure? Being a good mother to his children? Nope. Not a one.
So you can love a man to pieces, be devoted to him with all your being, be supportive of his dreams, be appreciative of his efforts – but don’t expect a proposal from him unless you ALSO give him monogamous sex on top of all that. It’s not enough that you give him all the above PLUS sex. But it must needs be MONOGAMOUS sex.
You did a whole lot of assuming right there. Let’s look at my post that you quoted.
As for circular dating. The last women I would ever give a marriage proposal is to a woman that is dating other men. So the simple fact is, if a woman starts right off telling me that she wants to circular date, I will do one of two things. Continue to date her for the companionship while I look for somebody worth committing to, or I will drop her flat right there. Jeremy is right. It is up to her to prove that she is worth making that huge commitment to.” – RustyLH in response to 269.4.1
First of all, notice that I never said monogamous. I don’t assume that we will be having sex. I do, however, assume that she will not be having sex with anybody else.
You assume that I do not expect: Love, Appreciation, Support, Being secure, Respect, Patience, Kindness. OK, first of all, I am going to assume this was a joke, because I refuse to believe you are that dumb.
You see, we weren’t discussing Love, Appreciation, Support, Being Secure, Respect, Kindness, etc… We were discussing circular dating. Circular dating. Circular dating. Circular dating? Understanding yet? We weren’t discussing anything but whether a man would, or should propose to a woman who was not exclusively dating him. You and some others seem to assume that automatically includes sex. I only assume that if sex is involved, it is monogamous. And frankly, I never slept with more than one woman at a time, I think it’s nasty that you would gladly sleep with more than one man at a time. How special. You also assume incorrectly that a man wouldn’t notice that you are cheating. I can assure you of one thing, it better be a guy that is nothing more than a booty call if you even want a chance of pulling that off long term, because he is going to have to know his place and be willing to slink around, sneaking into your house late at night, while parking 3 blocks away. He’s going to have to be willing to never go on a date.
Cheaters always get caught, not usually right away, but after a pattern is noticed, or somebody just happens to see something, like you out at a restaurant with some other man and he kisses you, and you both hold hands leaving, etc..
You seem to have a problem. You seem to assume that men are inferior to you. You seem to think that men are stupid and you are so smart and clever that you could hide your cheating from those poor dumb men.
Please, please, if you ever meet a man in a dating site with Rusty in his name, please do not interact with him on the off chance that it is me. I find it highly disrespectful, and disturbing that you would think it is OK to lie to a man you supposedly love and want a relationship with…especially about something as important as sex. And, do so simply because you haven’t gotten what you want on your own selfish timeline. We’ve talked about selfishness on this blog. That’s about as selfish as it gets.
Notice that men keep saying that they need time to become comfortable that you are somebody worth taking that huge risk for. What you showed right there is that they are completely justified in doing so. They have much to fear…there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing out there, pretending to be sweet loving women.
Chance says
“An “ad hominem” attack from you, Chance (271.2)? I thought better of you.”
Karmic, I can assure you that my post wasn’t meant as an ad hominem attack. If you want the truth, I don’t think you actually believe that cheating on a partner (let alone w/his or her best friend) is an acceptable route to take because I think that you’re too smart and logical to be able to actually justify it in your mind. This is why I chose to use the phrase “makes you come across” like someone who’s trying to use women’s liberation as justification to stop treating people with common decency. The choice of words wasn’t an accident as I didn’t want to accuse you of doing such a thing. It is my belief that you’re trying to make a point, although I’m not 100% sure what that point is. However, I believe you’ve missed the mark this time around (I’ll explain below). So, I’m here to say that you’re better than this, so step it up. 😉
“So you’re saying that it’s OK for a man to disrespect a woman, but a woman shouldn’t withdraw the ONE thing that a man values above even love – “monogamous sex” – to show him how much his disrespect hurts her?”
Nope, that’s not what I’m saying at all. However, we differ in our approach: you appear to be advocating for women to remove the “monogamous” from “monogamous sex”, while I am advocating that women remove the “sex” altogether. If a woman isn’t getting her needs met, then she should communicate her needs in a clear and non-confrontational manner. Then, if she still isn’t getting her needs met, she should leave him. What is more liberating than that? It. Really. Is. That. Simple.
You say that your advice to cheat is for the women who can’t leave their man for one reason or another. However, if a woman isn’t confident or independent enough to leave a man who doesn’t respect her, this is a serious problem that needs to be corrected. Unfortunately, your advice does nothing to correct the problem because it doesn’t give her the confidence she needs to leave him and find a new man who does respect her, and it will cause all of the men involved in this love triangle/quadrilateral/pentagon to respect her less. The advice just serves as an enabling device to perpetuate an unhealthy relationship on one hand, and a series of dead-end flings on the other. EMK preaches day-in and day-out that women should take control and be the CEO’s of their romantic lives, and I think that your advice is diametrically opposed to this message.
Dede says
Evan I agree wholeheartedly with you. I believe in much of what Rori has to say and I agree with many of her ideas . She does wonders to boost women’s self esteem and help them realize finding love begins with love and respect for oneself – BUT I think she misses the mark when she encourages women to keep dating others until marriage. I can understand that early on it is a good idea to keep irons in the fire and not tie yourself to one person – date others and slowly but surely they will begin to weed out as you grow more serious and begin to develop a relationship with one of them. Which also leads me to ask, “how do you develop a relationship with one, when others are in the picture”? It is like the the old saying “too many hands spoil the soup”! There is also a double standard in this concept – if I am not mistaken this circular dating idea does not apply to the man – in other words if we find out that he is still seeing other women this is a clear indication that he is not sincere and we should prepare to move on. Why play theses games?
Chris says
Thank you Evan,
I’ve been dating for the last 10 years following a divorce. Until recently, I made the same mistake over and over. I would meet Mr. Nice GUY .. after 2-3 dates we were both “exclusive” and not dating anyone else. With the exception of a few longer term relationships, within 3 months all of the things that made us incompatible reared their ugly heads.. The breakup happens, I bury myself in my work or projects until I am ready to date again… 10 years have gone by with the same mistake.
NOW, I keep my options open and take my time getting to know the person I am dating. I will not get into an exclusive relationship sooner than 6 months but when I do, I would expect to be exclusive and not date anyone else. I would expect that from the man I am dating as well. I don’t believe that you should “Get a Ring on it” before being exclusive. How can you build a relationship otherwise? Remaining in an open relationship by Circular Dating until you get a marriage proposal sounds more like manipulation to me.
Just my thoughts… Chris
Evan Marc Katz says
Chris, if you won’t become his girlfriend for 6 months, you’re going to be eliminating the 95% of men who want to be exclusive in the first 2 months. Don’t keep up your patterns of mistakes to protect yourself. Let down the wall, date men, become exclusive, and if you’re not meant to be, you can always break up. But you will have virtually no options for boyfriends if you make him wait 6 months for you.
k2012 says
well, well, well, I am glad I found this article Evan. I follow up three coaches work-Rori, Jonathon and u, Evan. I met a man online who is coming to my country to meet me. Rori was the first coach I followed up extensively and I really like her circular dating technique. However, like u Evan, I didn’t agree when she said u must circular date until u got the ring. I didn’t agree with that part at all. I am single and looking for a boyfriend, ok. I have one prospect, the guy who is coming to my country to meet me. I am thinking of linking up with a matchmaker by monthend in an effort to find two more guys to date. However, Evan, when I find a boyfriend, I am not going to circular date. When one of the men starts stepping up and claim me as their own, (even if I don’t get the ring and that’s takes time), I am focusing on that man. I wouldn’t bother to circular date at that time. NO! Definitely NO. As u said, that now would sound like cheating. Just tonight, I started wondering how u, Evan feel about circular dating as I was just on Rori”s page. reading up on it again, so I know how to do it. U see, I know u all as coaches want the best for us women. u all do. But all the advice that u, Rori and Jonathon give, I pick out the parts that make sense(no disrespect here ) that will work for ME. I cant imagine telling a man who I am involved in a relationship with, that I am going to circular date. NOPE. Its okay for the early stages of dating, but as soon as one of the men step up and pronounce u their girlfriend, circular dating would stop right there with me. Circular date your boyfriend and see him walk right through the door. Evan I saw someone writing about the disadvantages of circular dating, after I googled it and this was where I found your article. Glad I found it. Good article.
Caroline says
Thank you for restoring the balance on this issue.
I would add that a trait of many abusive spouses in the early stages, in addition to charm, is the urge to hook their new partner into a relationship (shared house/finances/kids/marriage) very quickly, after which they proceed to isolating them, etc etc. It’s one of the first steps in the black miracle of domestic abuse.
Isa says
Thank you so much dear Evan.
This is what I think and believe too. I am dating a most wonderful good man who had to face many issues with his women/girl friends all his life and therefore has built a concrete wall around his heart.
His insecurity lies in trust, real love and not to be taken advantage for what he has achieved (excellent and important family and more, a real “catch”).
I can see how he is “testing” me in a good way so to get to know me as a person and most important how I behave also in terms of men.
To mention is that men are drawn to me and in addition I am an outgoing, happy women, talking to “everybody”.At the outer look this could give him and has given him the impression of me being superficial, dating more than one man and just having “fun”.
Even though I like Rory and her “feeling” messages a lot I have never considered to circular date while being in this on both side exclusive relations ship that has started 13 weeks ago. It would definitely destroy it at once with this amazing man who has to slowly but steadily and with a lot of time let down his guard and start to trust me. This is simply impossible within a few months. Same with me. I need time to see beyond the pinkish feelings and to get a person, even more the man of my heart to know, see how he reacts, if he sticks to his words, how he treats me, if he leaves me enough space for my “own” life and a lot more.
To conclude: I 100% agree with you Evan. Circular dating and this even communicated to the man can be a relationship killer. It would be for me too if he would tell me he is circular dating! That is the main reason we both agreed to be exclusive with each others upfront.
Ms Di says
Great piece! I just finished reading her book and while a lot of stuff she talks about makes sense, this Cdating didnt. It’s great to get a man’s perspective on dating, relationships and marriage. As women we tend to ask other women what men want in relationships instead of asking men what they want.
Jenny Rugeroni says
I must say, I agree with you! I have been in a wonderful relationship for 6 years now, and both of us are not sure if we want to get married yet. It doens’t mean we don’t love each other, but we have our own reasons to think this way. We had a very difficult phase last year, but I would never think of dating other men while I am with him.
An interesting fact is that he has never been in a relationship for such a long time before, and he says that he has been with me all this time because I accept him as he is, while other women would be pushing for marriage. I am happy as things are, because this is the way it works for us. I would never give up all the love, friendship and support he gives me just because he doesn’t want to be married for now.
Pam says
Evan ,
i totally agree, how can we ask a man to commit to us, trust in us & then tell him were going to date other men , if we are already in a relationship with him. Also most women I know , myself included , would not want him dating other women while in a relationship with us. If you want to keep dating then don’t become exclusive in the first place. I’ve been divorced & believe that trust is the most important thing in a relationship & especially in a marriage . I also believe it should be given until broken. Don’t go into it assuming you can’t trust someone. I think your advice was very brave & honestly with women’s best interest at heart.
thanks for stopping many woman from going over the cliff before they teach the finish line!!!
Amy G. says
Evan, not sure when this post came out originally, but I was following Rori when I saw your argument against CD. I liked your thinking, looked you up and bought your book, “Why He Disappeared”, a few days later. That was almost two years ago. I met my now boyfriend a few days after getting your book. I listened to it daily on the way to work and followed your advice while getting to know this new guy. All I can say is thank you, I sincerely feel that following your advice had gotten me this far in this relationship. We are older, early 40’s, with two kids each so things aren’t moving as fast as they might in other scenarios, but this is the most relaxed, adult relationship I’ve ever been in. It’s not always easy to do what you suggest, but I’ve made your advice work for me. Thank you. I have to go, we are going to cook dinner together soon. 🙂
Rachel says
Evan, well said! I am a Rori fan (and Christian Carter), and I have to say that I must have missed the but in Rori’s piece about “circular dating until you have a ring on your finger!”
I read “circular date until one becomes a boyfriend!” Surely that’s the whole point on circular dating, to determine long-term prospects with one over the others.
Clearly the females who expect a marriage proposal before a year (at least) are in dire need of serious inner work!
As you said, it takes two to tango and you should be looking at their long-term potential with a fine tooth comb as much as men are! It is all about common sense and being a whole person who has worked on any issues BEFORE looking for a relationship with a man who is and has done the same!
Kareen says
Wow, Evan. This article is excellent. I totally understand your viewpoint. I am saying this as a reader who follows your articles closely , when I have the time and your newsletters that I receive in my inbox and I follow you on Facebook. I am also one of Rori”s followers and her newsletters helped me tremendously following my breakup. So the two of you newsletters appear in my inbox regularly. I agree with Rori’s circular dating technique TO A POINT. As you said above, we can date all we want when searching for a boyfriend. I agree. At least three guys. ok. so take for eg, I am dating three guys who invite me out regularly. Once one of the guys step up Evan, and claim me as his own, THATS WHERE THE CIRCULAR DATING STOPS. Trust me. So one of the guys steps up and lets me know clearly that’s “its me and you now, baby”. Evan you see once that is made clearly to me, that is when I say goodbye to the other two guys. yep. So that’s where I part with Rori here. If I continue to go out with the other two guys in my rotation or new guys for that matter, the situation here would be that I would be CHEATING ON MY BOYFRIEND AS YOU MENTIONED ABOVE. Which sensible guy is going to want that? oh no. That would be cheating. Rori says circular dating until you get the ring. I wouldn’t do that. The man would definitely think you are cheating on him. Circular date until YOU FIND A BOYFRIEND. One has to use wisdom in these situations, cause MOST MEN WILL NOT WANT THEIR GIRLFRIENDS TO CIRCULAR DATE THEM, THEY WOULD CONSIDER IT CHEATING.
Sara says
Circular dating after 8 months just feels like emotional manipulation. Stringing him along while you explore more options is not only going to leave a lasting taint on the relationship, but it’s just plain cruel. Even if he doesn’t feel betrayed and agrees whole-heartedly to date other people, you have lost a sense of closeness, caring, and openness in your relationship that you can only get when you’re exclusive. And if he says he doesn’t want to date other people and decides that if marriage is what he has to do to keep you, he may rush his decision. Then you may never know if it was because he truly loved you and didn’t want to lose you, or if it was because you gave him some high pressure sales tactic because of your insecurities that go far beyond finding a man.
Maud says
Dear Evan, I totally agree with you, I love the way Rori makes me feel powerful and relaxed when I watched the Utube videos and read the news letters but I hesitated to buy the program because of this black spot ! I even imagined something you did not mention (sorry if you did) the man could say “well, same for me, I date other women til I’m not sure for you” ! Hhaha ! And if that becomes a play, bye bye fun, relax and so . I love the way you say thinks simply and realisticly we have to accept nothing is aquire in life and find joy and love inside of us, well, you made me want to buy your book 😉 Keep it up !
Isa says
Well I am coming back after having left a comment a while ago that circular dating is no good yet since I am dating a man who is complex like we all are and meanwhile set my boundaries with him which meant leaving at 22.30 at night after he behaved in a strange way to me (answering a call while removing himself to the bathroom for this) which never happened before I left. We were exclusive at that time. Meanwhile we have met again, even fell into each others arms and had great, intimate sex, us deciding though to take this second chance step by step and doing better than the first time.
Now I met him yesterday and we had a very positive, open talk in a beautiful surrounding. The open talk I started after we have shared a great time, discussing, laughing, sharing our thought and dreams with the key issue to me which is what a relationship means to me and what I am looking for in the future and having him given the chance to express himself openly and honestly which he did and which felt amazingly good even though the end is open I realized and made my point that we are both singles now while seeing how this evolves between us. To me this is important. I addressed in a nice way that I do not wish to spend time on a might ever be relationship and wish to have my opportunities open which of course does not mean that I am jumping right into another relationship yet I am certainly meeting other men for coffee and or a drink. This gives a total new shift to my life and his too. It is my honest feeling and exactly what Rory explains so well. We have to date ourselves, ascertain we are not focusing on one man only until he might be ready while keeping our standards high which includes of course a high standard of integrity and following her advise in talking honest, without fear, from our feeling and expressing them.
To make a long story short: I am now a strong believer in keeping a not commited relationship open for a woman until the man commits. This does not necessarily mean to get married immediately. For me this means to make some agreements like monogamy, build a life toghether. My self esteem and self love has improved since yesterday and the very best of it I feel that the man has realized I know my worth as we have expressed everything in a very positive, open and respected way.
Gloria says
I really don’t know both blogs but I think i agree with you Jane. Evan probably sees CDing from the angle of cheating or committing to more than one partner and that is wrong, it doesn’t matter whether it has worked for people or not, it is just not right because no woman would even appreciate a man doing that to her so why should she do that to a man. Probably Rori sees it from just ensuring that you can still hang out with other friends and make new friends whether male or female even while you are committed to one person (even when you are married)…as long as you assure your spouse that He remains your priority and that He is the one you are in a committed to, there shouldn’t be a problem. Of course this is also not a guarantee that you will eventually get married. I believe that a good marriage is simply a gift from God….
Any man who prevents you from hanging out with other people especially when he is not married to you is dangerous. Even when you are married, a man that trusts you will allow you hang out with other friends whether male or female but of course we have to consider the other side of the coin, if you find yourself falling for someone other than your spouse then you have to be truthful to yourself and to your spouse and if it means that you stop hanging out with that friend for the sake of your marriage or relationship, you should.
I really wouldn’t advocate breaking up with one person because a ‘seemingly’ better person came up (even though sometimes that may happen by no fault of anyone). I agree with Evan that if you think a man is not good enough, end it with him…its a more sincere thing to do than to start seeing other people to have a plan B.
All in all……We women can really get insecure…and its quite understandable…but the truth is no man can really give you that, only God can. So just let go of the fear and love your man, be faithful to him, be vulnerable…basically do the right thing and God will reward you with a faithful man.
Zen says
I study All kinds of relationship materials for my male and female clients and Rory raise circular dating which is just dating after you have an exclusive relationship is just ludicrous how would these women like it if their men that they want to commit to were also out dating other people because well we’re not committed yet to marriage and why is marriage the end game for everyone it may work for some but not for all in 2015 and this kind of approach to relationships is probably what accounts for 50% divorce rate if you’re forcing a man’s him to marry you within a certain amount of time and he’s not ready it most certainly will end in divorce.
I returned Murray raise information her a refund because after studying it for 20 minutes and reading about dating until the day you’re married I just thought bogus bogus bogus information. Being ’empowered’ isn’t the exact opposite of being insecure.
I would question her how to build confidence methods and rather then how to get a man out of fear-based positioning of ‘I’m never gonna be married’ kind of attitude and help them shift their energy to attracting good people in general. She seems to be selling the opposite side of the pendulum don’t sit around waiting for somebody just go date everybody till the day your married … What a crock …
Thank you for calling it out!
etta says
Evan, you are wonderful! I’ve always liked you for your straight forwardness but now I am truly yours! YYou’ve given me the courage to continue with my six week boyfriend (yes, you read that right, six weeks). I was seriously thinking of forgetting him. Truly. Why? Because of what he wasn’t giving me. And what is/was that? Attention. But it was the type of attention I felt I should have based on my past relationships which, ironically, didn’t last. Makes sense? Yes? Well, not to me. You see, already I see this man is one of character, who doesn’t mind or should I say is not afraid of saying no to my almost every whim and I love it even if I won’t admit it to myself (it’s only on paper). For instance, he’s addicted to television. So he spends his entire evening with the tube. Where does that leave me? An aha moment! Other times.
Twice I was upset with him about something (he didn’t call me back when he said he would). He sent me an apology text and called that evening. When he first told me about his television thing, I got upset, said something while it wasn’t bad in itself, my delivery was, he called the next morning explaining…and tried to make me laugh by cracking a corny joke.
I learned and you explained it so well, that we women must learn that you men are human too. I learned that a relationship is a partnership. After reading your take on Rori, I knew I couldn’t let this guy go (yes, I was thinking of it). And all of the above incidents took place with two weeks. Actually, if you want to get technical about it, it was really two and a half weeks ago.omg! Yep, I’m nuts!
Thank you Evan. Thank you!
Elizabeth says
I agree with you 100%! I’ve been getting Rori emails recently and the ‘promo scenarios’ all sound good and relatable. I even came close to considering the easy payment plan lol. But as with anything I plan on buying, I check reviews. And that is how I found you. I had no idea part of Rori’s strategy was circular dating. I think it is ridiculous! And i wouldn’t respect a man who did. Would women feel the same way if the tables were turned? Hell no! so glad I found this. You just saved me!
starthrower68 says
Who has the energy for circular dating anyway?
Claudia Maria says
Dear Evan,
you speak out of my heart … this was exactly the point, I couldn ´t follow Rori any more …. it is great what she says about self love and so on … but this CD is disgusting for me … in fact, I even date only one men in a time even when I have no relationship with him yet … and I tell the other men interested in me, that I am dating a man and untill we are clear to have a relationship or not, there are only normal friendship talks for other men … and all of them understood me … even wishing me luck, I would do the same for them. So I felt blessed twice, to have this thrilling feeling of a beginning love relationship and then to have real good friends who want to see me happy and who are not selfish at all. And last but not least, I stayed loyal to my feelings, and the way I want to be treated … even in this early state of a relationship … ohhh and when I imagine to be in a relationship no matter how these problems are, I would try to solve them and talk to my man … and then decide to stay with him or not …. I am sooo grateful that you and many people there think the same way … I just thought I was alone thinking this way because I am German and a little oldfashion in relationships …. lots of love and God bless you all, Claudia Maria
Cc says
I like thanks for the great article while I was reading I could honestly say youve described him and made me want to bee more patient and put my full trust into him. Thanks again 🙂 I stumbled across your article googling rori raye.lol
Littleted says
Hello Evan
You have just confirmed what I have been thinking for a while now.
When I was reading Rories advice about CDing, it seemed fine until I started dating a man and wanted exclusivity. Once this happened, I didn’t feel right about dating other people and even though he was telling me we were exclusive, he felt he wasn’t ready to commit to a relationship, not even as boyfriend and girlfriend. If I had followed Rories advice I should have continued to Cd, but it still did not sit right with me to carry on dating so I didn’t, despite what Rory was saying. My other reason was if you want to find out about someone, you need to invest time in that person, seeing other people, or even messaging them on line, does not make sense to me. It takes away from finding out about what that person is all about. You can make a more informed choice once you see how they react to situations, how they treat you and then decide if you want to pursue the relationship or end it. That is empowerment for women 🙂
We have been dating for two months now, and in this time my friend has shown me, he can be exclusive to me in regard to intimacy, but not totally exclusive, since he continues to chat to numerous women online and shows little interest in me between dates. He is essentially a good man, he is kind and good in a lot of ways, but he wasn’t meeting my emotional needs, not to be confused with sexual needs!
Btw way, just to back you up on this point Evan, his continuation to chat with other women on a dating site, was not a turn on for me, in fact if anything it was a turn off and left me feeling sad. We discussed this and nothing changed, apart from him blowing hot and cold.
What I am trying to say here is in just two months I have been able to concentrate on seeing if this man is worth my time and energy. By continuing to see him, it will not make my life richer and dating other guys, isn’t going to change this, all it will do is prolong the process.
All I have to do now is tell him and this is where it gets hard because I really liked him. It won’t bother him, but it’s going to make me very sad, because I saw potential in him. However, one has to be true to oneself and be strong.
Best regards and keep up the good work
bellaragazza says
I practiced circular dating from the ages of 34-37 and my love life was a disaster. After discussing with my exes (2 of them) what the effect was for them during our time together , they told me that there was no way for them to feel consistent or build true intimacy while I was dating someone else. It was a very long time to make these men feel that unless they met my deadline for a ring, that I would end up in another relationship. I do not recommend this method of sorting for a husband, you do not end up with a good sense of how you communicate, compromise or build a life if you’re threatening to leave unless he produces a ring.
Thank goodness I found Evan’s blog. Through his books, I saw that I picked my past 2 circular relationshipso based on attraction and chemistry vs how much the relationship made me happy. Within 3 months of changing my profile and style of dating, I met my boyfriend. He asked to be exclusive on date 5 and 2 months later tells me that he can see me as his wife. He also treats my goals and feelings like they are important to him. Evan’s advice to pick the right guy and to evaluate him based on 5 behaviors of men who want to be your boyfriend very simply works.
There is no way that this man, who loves me and is committed to building a relationship with me, would have stuck around if I pulled off the shenanigans of circular dating like I had done previously. Take it from a 38 year old woman, who has a committed leading to marriage, who has done both methods. Evan’s advice to be open about your intentions, but trusting that the right guy will want to make you happy is solid.
I am proof. Will come back to update on the relationship. What I will say, is that the strong compatibility And 8 chemistry is working. I am the happiest I have ever been in a partnership.
Petulia says
Hi Evan. I am in a 2 year relationship. I have had 3 other long term relationships in the past that all ended in tears. I believe this is because I gave myself up and what I loved to do and put all my energy into my man,
This time I was determined not to let that happen, after being single for 6 years, before I met my current boyfriend.
So i bought the complete works by Rori Raye and lived it to the Tee since the beginning of my relationship.
At first it was all good. I was sleeping with my man and we weren’t living together. I was still hanging out with my male friends and keeping my options open.
This guy is a good guy and he idolises me. But I now know where the flaw lies in Rori’s teaching’s.
I moved in with my guy after 8 months, and decided to become exclusive. He then asked me to marry him after 14 months. I then did my same old trick and went back to revolving my whole world around him. In which case, I (of course) pushed him away. He felt pressured and we got un engaged. But we didn’t break up.
So I decided it was time to get Rori’s work out again and started to do reconnect your relationship. I decided to go online dating. I didn’t actually meet any men in reality, but I was online while my bf was out, chatting and flirting with other men. Trying to empower myself.
Well, I told him about it one night and as you can imagine, he was not pleased. We ended up having huge rows. I ended up saying too many things I regret, and things i know Rori would crucify me for. Putting more and more pressure on him. He still stayed, but after I continued internet dating to TRY to make myself less available to him, I worked up the courage to ask him to move out. Because Rori kept saying the girlfriend deal wasn’t a good deal and that we shouldn’t be living together until marriage.
I am now alone. And after some great reflection, I can now see that I basically brought a third person into our relationship. Rori Raye.
This man loves me and I totally think that Rori is an amazing person who knows her stuff and can help to empower women. But i personally found what she teaches to be complicated and unsutainable in the long term. Instead of helping me, I ended up becoming some sort of schizophrenic! I went from being this (fake) woman talking constantly about my feelings ( when I was in good form) to giving up and feeling frustrated that I wasn’t getting my real feelings out.
I am a highly influenced person. Had I known what i know now, I would have just gone on the way I was. I had spent 6 years working on myself before I met my man. I was already an open person and this man was madly in love with me. I feel that I ruined things because I started to follow Rori like a guru and got would try harder whenever I deviated from her rules.
Thankfully my boyfriend and I are now dating again. He still loves me, but we are way off course from before. However, I am grateful to have him. We live separately. We don’t see other people and we are taking things day by day.
I think Rori is wonderful. But i do feel that many of her ideas apply to single women who are looking for Mr. Right. I think if you have already found Mr Right and he is loving you, and you are happy, then you should stay away from any coaching. In other words, if it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it. I just broke my relationship. I know that my boyfriend loves me a bit less now. I know that he doesnt trust me as much. I feel guilty and I have to be careful not to overcompenstate.
I am not sure it will ever be like it was before but I do know that we are both good people and we are both open and honest and can be ourselves in the relationship. He has seen me at my very worst and still sticks by me. That is enough for me. No ring, or marriage or living together will ever say I love you like that.
By the way, I am a wedding singer and I have attended many many weddings in my life. I rarely see couples marrying for true love. You can tell the real lasting ones. So marriage is not the be all and end all. Couples have the right to live the way they want and I think if you are any way easily influenced, it is worth reading other options before buying any coaching programme.
I just wish I had found post (or even looked for it) before i decided to go all out Rori.
Wishing everyone love and happiness
Morgana says
I gotta agree with you on this one, Evan. I can’t imagine that my husband and I would have stayed together long enough for him to propose if I was still playing the field. We were both looking for a committed relationship. It was scary to give up my other options and commit to Devin exclusively, but I’m sure glad I did!
Maya says
I feel like I should defend Rori’s advice a bit. Though, I definitely see where Evan is coming from. Rori helped take my relationship that was unsatisfying to me at the time, into a satisfying marriage. I was with my boyfriend for a year and a half. A year of that time had been really serious; I was helping him raise his ex-girlfriend’s child. Long story, the child ended up not even being his genetically, but that’s a topic for another day.
I was obviously ready for the proposal, but he wasn’t exactly stepping up to the plate. When I suggested circular dating, I gave him the choice to date other women as well. I think that’s what a lot of people seem to be forgetting. When done correctly, we aren’t expecting to keep him to ourselves either. Well, he wasn’t down for that arrangement. I did end up breaking things off, but we missed each other and started dating again. I was seeing other people, casually, and keeping my options open. He proposed within a month of us beginning to date again.
Just saying, circular dating doesn’t have to be a train wreck if you handle it with finesse. Also, my mother was with her fiancé for 4 years with no wedding date. I showed her Rori’s advice and a few months later, this past December, they were finally married. ^_~
Janie says
Circular dating means many things to many people -RR seems to use it in many contexts depending on age, relationship status and what needs and desires the woman is fulfilling.
Here are some options…
1. Go on dates with multiple people as meet and greets, get-to-know-yous or sexual exploration, whatever floats your boat..just balance it so you don’t start obsessing and focusing your laser light on one guy who is also just dating .
2. If you are keen to be married and sitting on a biological time bomb then use it to catapault yourself out of a sticky situation with a long term guy..tell the guy ” Hey X, you know you mean the world to me and I totally understand that you arent ready to propose and lock down your life yet, so just letting you know I have been feeling increasingly anxious about my future and my desire for marriage and children . Of course you must take all the time you like to decide about me,and you are comfortable with how things are, but 18 months is quite a while for me , so i am opening things up and I am going to date other men who ask me. I wont sleep with them (well thats a choice too ) but I am looking for the relationship that works for me too.” This is fair for both parties. Its honest, its not cheating, its taking control of your own destiny.
3. Then there is CDing yourself..perhaps you are in an unhappy marriage or long term relationship and your man is away a lot , focusing on work , you are home alone..you CD yourself..you go out to meetings, lectures, theatre etc by yourself or with friends , male or female.
4, The “extreme” CD version is about dating around until married. It worked for our mothers and grandmothers!!! ” Hey X , yes i am so flattered you want to be exclusive but I don’t actually need or want a boyfriend right now. I am happy to see you often and get to know you and if we get sexual we need to discuss what we both want there, but its important for me not to put all my eggs in one basket”
These are a few examples. CDing is beneficial to both parties as it takes the pressure entirely OFF a guy . He doesn’t have to propose or get married at all, but he has to figure out if he wants that girl forever or not. If he doesn’t know that and the girl is anxious and needing a wedding and family then he is better to let her go surely!
JK says
Janie! you’re awesome! that is perfectly stated and clearly how circular dating is applied!! There’s way too much criticism on this comment thread for a simple concept that’s designed to help us take ownership of our own happiness! Yay! yours is a refreshing voice of reason! thanks!
Samantha Brown says
I agree JK and Janie. I think there has been some serious misunderstanding of what Rori recommends. She recommends NEVER becoming a girlfriend so her wish is that we never have a boyfriend to have a sticky conversation with.
mary says
Well said, Eric. I read Rori’s views on circular dating a while back and wasn’t able to put it into practice until just recently – finally found a site that yielded positive results. I agree with you 100% …once I have an actual boyfriend, not just a date, I will be exclusive unless it is obvious there is no potential for marriage. I am enjoying dating – I didn’t do that before my marriage of 29 years (after 3 months of dating … Not recommended to anyone!) And having 1st and sometimes 2nd or 3rd dates is teaching me a lot about myself, men, and what is important to me in a relationship.
Amanwithdaughters says
It seems to me that Evan isn’t even talking about the same thing Rorie is addressing. It makes perfect sense to me to date whom you please, and allow the man to date whom he pleases, as long as you haven’t both committed to marriage. Evan’s point of exclusivity until the man decides is ridiculous, and I feel sorry for all the women who are buying into this. Yes, ladies, IF you have already been exclusive with a “good” man and want to push the marriage agenda forward by saying you’re going to start dating others, I think that’s a bad idea. You’re reneging on your agreement of exclusivity and of course that would cause a man doubt you forever (men don’t tend to be as forgiving as women-sorry, I know, I’m a man). Women shouldn’t get themselves into that situation to begin with-why become exclusive when there is no commitment on his part? His asking you to be exclusive is just a move on his part to further attach you to himself and give you an illusion of a future. You’re giving the man all your love, support and sex-why the hell would he feel compelled to then take on the responsibility of marriage when he’s getting everything he wants without it? Evan talks about how he and his buddies did this to women, and when they were “ready”, they married the women. Look around…not only is this not the norm, it is also a sign that the man will be putting himself first throughout the marriage, and the women they married don’t mind taking care of their “little boys”. How convenient for Evan to support this exclusivity on the female’s part without commitment on the man’s part. Men are generally smarter when it comes to relationships than women are-they know what they want and seek to get it “by any means necessary”. Women keep trying to “prove” themselves to men by giving, giving, giving, and men KNOW this-they know women will become more emotionally attached, that women seek security, so they use this to get as many of their needs and wants met with the least output from themselves. That’s where the “hey, let’s be exclusive, I really “care” about you!” strategy comes in. They know once most women commit to that, it will be very hard for her to pull out-she’s committed out of love, he asked for exclusivity to hedge his bets while he’s “deciding”. This strategy is meant to stack the deck in the man’s favor, absolutely ignoring that when a women gives of herself in this fashion, she’s giving a part of herself away, and this is just not emotionally so for a man. And let’s face it-today’s world is a man’s dream. Women’s so-called “liberation” has just made them sitting ducks for male predators. A man used to have to be concerned with how he treated a woman because her family, father, brothers, uncles, etc. were keeping an eye out. Now women, brainwashed and thinking how “free” they are and how they can “take care of themselves” are crying the blues because men are taking advantage left and right. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with women dating around until and unless a man she wants to marry commits to marrying her. And until then, she is foolish for falling for the “lets be exclusive” ploy. Sure, a guy can take all the time he wants to “decide” (keep total control over the woman and the relationship), but a woman is a fool if she is going to be exclusive while he does that. Men aren’t stupid-they respect a woman who doesn’t cave for the “exclusivity” ploy, they know she’s emotionally independent and has a lot going for her. And its totally honest and aboveboard to let the man know this from the get go, and of course he can keep dating, too. The ladies glowing comments on this blog seem a little “methinks thou dost protest too much”. I will interested to see if my post gets included.
Evan Marc Katz says
“How convenient for Evan to support this exclusivity on the female’s part without commitment on the man’s part.”
What a load of nonsense. In a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, BOTH parties are exclusive. Wherever did you get the idea that a man can date outside his relationship? You sound paranoid, insecure, and delusional about the nature of exclusivity or the motivations of men. Men aren’t deciding to “stack the deck”; they’re deciding if they want to spend their LIVES with one woman. Similarly, that doesn’t mean he has “control,” given that a woman can dump him any time if she is dissatisfied with the relationship. YOU seem to think that women are sitting ducks. I think they are equally powerful. Good luck to your daughters if this is the worldview their father has of men. They’ll need it.