[Video] Why Do Women Care About Height?”

Here’s the latest video from the series I created with Three Day Rule. It’s called “Why Do Women Care About Height?”

You can’t legislate attraction. It’s something that happens deep within us. However, when you dismiss potential dates based on their height, you could be turning away your perfect mate.

In today’s video we talk about why you’re better off compromising on height, than on other, more important qualities in a man.

Join our conversation (106 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.


  1. 1
    Sara Jensen

    I have to admit, I don’t understand the fixation with height. Personally, I would date a man of any height. How tall he is doesn’t enter into the equation AT ALL of whether or not I would date him.

    In fact, I only have one over-arching pre-requisite for any guy I date: he has to be a gentleman. Everything else – his height, weight, religion (or not), what he does for a living, his hobbies, does he have kids, has he been married before, his political affiliation, etc. –   I am content to learn as I go. As we date, the answers to those questions will be revealed, and I’ll decide at that time whether it’s something I can live with.

    I have known great guys who were 5’2 – 5’5. I’ve known jerks who were 6’0+. And vice versa.

    I guess I just don’t understand why height has to be such a deal-breaker for women.

    I am 5’8. I don’t consider myself tall for a women – rather, I think I’m medium sized – but I know how I would feel if men made it clear that they wouldn’t date a woman who was shorter than, say, 5’11. Or, conversely, a guy that only wanted to date petite women.

    Why do some men insist on only dating tall women? Because 5’11 women remind men of models, which conveys a sense of status in being able to snag such a catch. But really, ladies, do you really want to be with a man who has that as a priority? Personally, I don’t. I want to be with a man who has some real substance to him, not a man who wants me to live up to an arbitrary standard that I have no control over.

    For women, insisting that the men they date have to be, say,   6’0 or above does the same thing. It says much more about who you are as a person (and not in a good way) then it does about the 6’0 men you’re trying to date and all of the sub-6’0 men you’re excluding. This perpetuates an unrealistic ideal that no one wants to be a part of (that is, unless you’re one of the genetically gifted). Yet, we keep doing this to each other, while making exceptions for ourselves and our preferences.

    At the end of the day, does someone’s height really make that big of a difference to your level of personal happiness with someone? Ladies, are you really that worried about what other people might say if they saw you with a man that was shorter than you? Likewise, men, how much are you allowing vanity to enter into what you will and will not accept in a partner, looks-wise?

    I had a female friend in college who was 6’3. She told me one day – and I remember this verbatim, because it was, well, memorable – that not only would she only date a man that was TALLER than her, but that she would only date a man who was Caucasian; a Catholic; who was older than her; muscular; with at least a Master’s degree; who came from a good family; who makes at least $100,000 a year; who wants at least four kids; and who would be willing to move to her hometown in Texas because she refused to live anywhere else.

    This might sound crazy to you. In fact, you might be rolling your eyes about the fact that she had so many “standards.” But for those of you who are holding out for these “height restrictions”, are you really that much better?

    1. 1.1

      That was in college, when she was at the height of her smv and nearly all the men in her field of vision were single, still had their hair, were physically fit, etc.

      Ina way, it’s little different now for women in their 30s/40s because they have high self esteem from their accomplishments and when they have online dating profiles, they see countless candidate profiles to choose from and a steady stream of messages they tend to ignore.

    2. 1.2

      You’re right, I did roll my eyes through your friend’s checklist!   If you say you knew her in college, then I hope we can chalk that list up to immaturity, she has grown up since then and has now modified it to a more reasonable one.   The only place I can think of with a lot of men above 6’3″ who make a lot of money is the NBA–and even most of those men wouldn’t qualify since they aren’t Caucasian, living in Texas, etc.

      I’m in a happy relationship with a guy who’s 5’7″ (I’m 5’4″).   Believe it or not I have friends who ask how I can date someone who isn’t that much taller than me.   I really don’t care, though.   For numerous reasons, I love him more and more every day. I need someone who loves me, treats me well, and “gets” me, which he does–not necessarily someone who towers over me.   Before him, I dated men at all different heights (ranging from 5’5″ to 6’4″) and height has never determined whether a relationship flourished or floundered.

  2. 2

    I actually like short men. I am 5’5″ and my type is about my height, thin, with dark hair.

  3. 3

    ladies- a little known fact- shorter guys have better johnsons, not that guys like me don’t have good johnson too.

    1. 3.1

      not true

  4. 4

    I agree that it is ridiculous to rule out a guy on the basis of height and have found it baffling when men have suggested   I might be too tall for them (I’m 5ft 10- hardly a giant!) So it works both ways.

    1. 4.1

      I’m not going to lie Londonlass I’m 5’10”- 175lbs   and I rarely if ever email a woman over 5’8″ because A.) I never get a response from them anyway  and B.) I find shorter women more attractive. BUT…..if a woman was 5’8″ – 5’11” and SHE contacted me first and I liked her profile I would certainly respond. In 18 yrs of online dating that’s NEVER happened. Not once. I’m sure it never happens to most short men either.

      Just sayin……….

  5. 5

    @ ScottH #3
    “ladies- a little known fact- shorter guys have better johnsons, not that guys like me don’t have good johnson too”
    Er, that IS a little known fact. Or was that a pun?
    In fact, that doesn’t seem like a fact at all. I’m not buying it. Could you support that “fact”?
    I reckon, in reality, that shorter guys make more effort in bed, because they feel they have to, as a sort of compensation. Or, it’s because they’re simply more grateful to have the opportunity to use their “better” johnson! Lol.
    @ Evan
    “Why do women care about height?”
    My observations over the years:
    1) Genetics
    Tall man equals tall babies (in perception, if not reality), and all the assumed advantages that confers on the child throughout its life.
    3) Proof of healthy upbringing.
    To achieve one’s maximum height the individual must be provided with sufficient nutrition throughout his (as this topic pertains to height in men) youth, particularly his growing years. Height in the grown adult is direct evidence of having acquired sufficient nutrition and other requisite elements of a healthy upbringing, therefore creating the perception of being a healthy adult.
    3) Protection.
    I don’t really buy this one in this day and age with weapons and state police forces. But enough women have alluded to this in comments here that I think many women feel instinctively safer with taller man.
    4) Income.
    There seems to be sufficient evidence that taller people do, in fact, earn more over their lives than shorter people. The reasons for this can be debated.
    And the biggie:
    5) Status
    Rightly or wrongly, tall men are often afforded higher status in our society. And status can be a huge attraction trigger.

    1. 5.1

      I would add, in a society where many women feel extremely self-conscious about their weight/ size, 6) some women can feel more feminine and petite when with a tall guy than when with a smaller one.

      1. 5.1.1

        Exactly. I don’t want to tower over a guy when I’m wearing heels, nor do I want to outweigh him by 30 pounds. I really don’t find myself attracted to men who are shorter than me. I’m 5’7″, so I’m about average for a woman. I don’t necessarily want a guy over 6′, but at least a couple of inches taller than me is good. I like to feel like the dainty one, so if a guy is 5’5″ and 130 pounds soaking wet, it’s just not going to work. I like manly men with bigger physiques, including their height. I like what I like, same as any guy who likes supermodel-thin women with big breasts.

    2. 5.2
      Not this again

      Genetics – nope. My father was 6 feet and I’m 5’1. My maternal grandfather was 5’10’, all my uncles over 6 feet, but my mom and her sisters are 5’2″ under. My paternal grandfather was 5’7″. The 9 kids range from 4’10” to 6’4″.

      proof of healthy upbringing- Again I’m 5’1″ and had a very healthy upbringing. With all the toxins and processed foods in our environment Americans are more malnourished than ever yet we are still taller than ever. There is zero correlation in modern day America between height and nutrition.

      protection- this ones so silly I’m not even going to comment. It’s 2015, by the way. 50% of gym membership holders are female and there aren’t too many lions and tigers attacking people on the streets of NYC.

      Let’s leave the evo psych drivel out of it. We don’t live in caves anymore.

      1. 5.2.1

        @ Not this again #13.2.2
        “Genetics — nope. My father was 6 feet and I’m 5’1. My maternal grandfather was 5’10’, all my uncles over 6 feet, but my mom and her sisters are 5’2”³ under. My paternal grandfather was 5’7”³. The 9 kids range from 4’10” to 6’4”³.
        Ok, so your personal examples offer definitive proof that there is no correlation between height and genetics, yeah? The flaw in your argument, however, is that for every example you offer that there isn’t a correlation, I could also offer one to say that there is. But rather than swap pointless anecdotes, how about we look at the objective evidence?
        “Height is almost completely determined by genetics, but our earlier studies were only able to explain about 10 percent of this genetic influence,” said Dr. Joel Hirschhorn, of Boston Children’s Hospital
        “It’s common knowledge that people born to tall parents are more likely to be tall themselves,” Professor Tim Frayling, of the University of Exeter Medical School, who oversaw the study
        Source: Wood A, Esko T, Yang J. Defining the role of common variation in the genomic and biological architecture of adult human height. Nature Genetics. 2014.  
        Not this again said:
        “proof of healthy upbringing- Again I’m 5’1”³ and had a very healthy upbringing. With all the toxins and processed foods in our environment Americans are more malnourished than ever yet we are still taller than ever. There is zero correlation in modern day America between height and nutrition.”
        Except that there is a correlation between height and nutrition during child-hood. And again, there is evidence to prove it.
        “Diet is arguably the most influential determinant of linear growth because it is through diet that the influences of other determinants of linear growth such as socioeconomic status (SES)3 and infection are largely played out.”
        “Each additional unit of diet variety (range 0—8 U) was associated with a significant 0.33-cm increase in height in boys. Each additional 100 kcal (4186 kJ) was associated with significant increases in height of 0.05 cm in boys, and 0.02 cm in girls. Significant interactions (P < 0.15) with SES showed that each 100 kcal increase in energy intake was associated with a 0.08-cm increase in height at low SES with no difference at high SES.”
        Presented at Experimental Biology 2005, April 2005, San Diego, CA [Eckhardt, C. L., Suchindran, C., Gordon-Larsen, P. & Adair, L. S. (2005) The relationship between diet and height is enhanced at low SES and decreases with age among Filipinos in the post-infancy period. FASEB J. 19: #10548 (abs.)].
        Not this again said:
          “protection- this ones so silly I’m not even going to comment. It’s 2015, by the way. 50% of gym membership holders are female and there aren’t too many lions and tigers attacking people on the streets of NYC.”
        Well I already noted that I don’t buy this one due to the nature of modern society. But on an instinctive level I think women do feel psychologically safer with a taller guy; I only say that because I’ve read the sentiment so many times here. Weapons aside, I reckon taller guys are less likely to be attacked/assaulted/robbed than smaller guys for obvious reason. This probably feeds into a woman’s subconscious when evaluating a potential partner.
        “Let’s leave the evo psych drivel out of it. We don’t live in caves anymore”
        Okay then, Not this again, but since you dismissed all of  my explanations as nonsense, maybe you could offer some alternative explanations as to  why “women care about height”?

        1. Not this again

          Sigh. Over time, yes. Taller people have historically been more likely to be selected as mates and/or been more likely to survive harsh conditions, thus making the overall human population gradually taller. And over time, better nutrition has made the human population gradually taller.
          My point is that this happens gradually over time. A 5’2” woman doesn’t erase her genes and guarantee taller children by marrying a 6 foot man. I only offered myself as an example of why it’s not really relevant in the space of one generation.
          My point is that for a modern sophisticated person in 2016 with the self-awareness and motivation to seek dating advice to improve their chances, a list of the reasons why taller people are biologically superior isn’t really helpful.
          My point is that a short man who is having trouble finding a partner has heard all of this ad museum (as we all have). And it could just be, in his particular case, that his height is not the only reason, or even the reason at all for his troubles.  
          Psychological, social and evolutionary reasons aside, most shorter men who want to are capable of and will eventually find mates.  

        2. Tom10

          @ Not this again
          Why are you sighing, am I boring you? So why did you comment on my post?
          “A 5’2” woman doesn’t erase her genes and guarantee taller children by marrying a 6 foot man. I only offered myself as an example of why it’s not really relevant in the space of one generation.”
          Well  okay, she doesn’t guarantee taller children by marrying a 6 foot tall man, but she does increase her odds of having tall children. And the dating game is a game of odds. So your own example is “not really relevant” when one is subconsciously calculating general odds.
          My point is that a short man who is having trouble finding a partner has heard all of this ad museum (as we all have). And it could just be, in his particular case, that his height is not the only reason, or even the reason at all for his troubles.
          Psychological, social and evolutionary reasons aside, most shorter men who want to are capable of and will eventually find mates.”  

          But that’s not the point of this thread. The question here is why do women care about height? Not that short men can eventually find mates. And you still haven’t given me an alternative answer to this question…

      2. 5.2.2
        Not this again

        Actually, Tom, I think the point of this post was to remind women that when they exclude short men, they discount many potentially good mates. Evan said as much.

        You’re just stuck on why tall men are better. Given that no one can make themselves taller under any circumstances, it doesn’t really matter why does it? It only matters that short men play up their other attributes and that women remember that if height is their deal breaker they may have to compromise on other things.

        1. Tom10

          Okay, that’s a fair point, Not this again.
          Good response 😉

      3. 5.2.3
        Not this again

        Tom10, so were you just playing devils advocate with me? 🙂

        1. Tom10

          Nah, I wasn’t really. Maybe this thread should have been labelled “why women shouldn’t care so much about height”? Might have saved both of us some energy arguing 😉

  6. 6
    Peter 51

    So far as I can tell, being moderately tall, 5’10”, and not grossly fat compensates for decades of age with women over 25 (mostly my wife’s friends and her younger sister’s friends). Being high status and married to someone else seems to amplify this too. It can be quite embarrassing.

  7. 7

    I’m 5’9″ – the median height for American men – and I’ve only been in serious relationships with men my height or taller. Certainly I find “taller than me” attractive – I think simply because height is one of the physical characteristics that distinguishes men and women (like deeper voice and a 5 o’clock shadow) and I’m heterosexual. But I’ve never rejected a guy ’cause he was shorter than me – I think it’s the guys making that selection against women taller than them. The only time I’ve ever been asked out by men shorter than me was after a speed dating event – the women stayed seated and the guys cycled around, so I don’t think we were aware of our relative heights. I had a grad school fling with a 5’9″ man who insisted while we were dating that he was 5’10” and then went back to describing himself as 5’9″ when we broke up and he started dating his (petite) now-wife. And briefly dated a guy from online whose profile said 5’10” and he specifically instructed me not to wear heels when I was with him. I didn’t find their heights unattractive, but their concern about it was. I fell hard for one wonderful man who was my height (maybe a little shorter – we met at work where I was often in heels) and as far as I could tell, he couldn’t have cared less, he just enjoyed my company. He was (is) sexy as hell.

  8. 8

    I must admit that   I,  being a 6′ man, prefer women who are taller than 5’4″. My ex-wife is 5’8″ and I always found her slender, tall body very attractive. So, not only women wish to find a tall partner…

    1. 8.1

      But would you have been fine with a woman taller than you? Say 6’2″?

      1. 8.1.1

        Yes, I  would find her  height quite  interesting.  However, the tallest woman I have ever dated is 5’10” so I have no  real experience  with women who are taller than me.

      2. 8.1.2


        Would be, and in fact, have been…and I’m an honest 5’9″.   The tallest woman I ever dated was very nearly 6’2″ barefooted; I never found that the least bit awkward (and yes, she frequently wore heels). We had a mutually very enjoyable (if casual) relationship for over a year. I was married for 16 years to a woman who’s 5’11” (and therefore a good 5 inches taller in heels than I am); that was never an issue for either of us. By contrast, I’ve also dated women 5’0″ and shorter; never had a problem with that either.

        Do I have deal breakers, appearance wise? Absolutely; but height isn’t one of them. If I find a woman attractive, and her company enjoyable, I couldn’t care less whether how we look together fits anyone’s stereotypical ideas about how “it should be”.

        That said, far be it from me to tell any woman she “shouldn’t”desire a taller guy. I don’t lie about my very average height; don’t feel the need to. I have no desire to be with any woman, however attractive, who doesn’t want to be with me; the reason doesn’t matter. A woman owes no one an explanation for her preference for taller men, just as I owe no one an explanation for my preference for women who are not obese.

        1. Callie

          That’s lovely to hear from the both of you. I have two female friends that height and man did they have trouble dating (and for the record, were more than happy to date shorter men, one even dated a fellow 5’4″). So I always worry that when the height conversation comes up that tall women are left out of the equation.

  9. 9
    SFC Ton

    OKcupid trends( I think) did an experiment where they used the same male profile, face, education etc but changed his height and income. He had to make a lot more money at 5’9′ to get a smaller amount of female attention as he did when 6’3″ and broke. I am fuzzy on the exact numbers but not the main point.

    I cannot find the link but its out there. Men know what is up with women and height. Most women utterly fail to consider life from a masculine point of view but when you do some research you will find most men date in a fairly rational manner

    I get the height thing. Its evolutionary driven and people don’t live/ act in a thoughtful way. Most folks are letting the monkey/ lizard brain drive their bus.   Might not make sense in the here and now but we have an operating system designed for a much different environment

    I’m 5’7″ and dated women much taller then me. I can tell you most women will over look height but you have to bring a lot to the table to offset your height. Funny thing is, as a man, once you hit that level most women will over look your height, even women much younger which puts more pressure on girls in their 40’s

    Another thing women don’t tend to understand is they are not living in a vacuum and she is not the only gal in town.

    1. 9.1

      Ten million years of hormones tend to be more powerful than reason. Women want what they want, but men do, too. You have to be honest with yourself and know what you have in terms of what you can expect in a partner. Dating is a barter system.

      1. 9.1.1

        Emily- interesting comment and you bring up one of my favorite topics- the lizard brain, aka the “old brain” or the emotional brain.   This primitive part of our brain wants what it wants the way a child wants what it wants.   Then there is the modern brain that distinguishes us from the lizards.   This modern brain can reason and most of the other species on the planet don’t have this power.   The ego mediates between the old brain and the modern brain to determine what’s best for us.   The power of the ego to mediate between what the old brain wants and what’s the modern brain (the superego) says is ok is called ego strength.   Evan’s job is to strengthen our ego and see that what the old brain wants isn’t what’s best for you.   The reactions of the old brain aren’t helpful in this modern era.   They are great if you’re being chased by a T Rex or your house is burning down but if a short great guy comes on to you, it’s Evan’s job to strengthen your ego and do what’s right for you.   Sorry if this is rambling but I’m having my red wine therapy right now and this Freudian topic is one of my favorites.       Read Harville Hendrix Getting the Love You Want, chapter 2 for a good synopisis of the old brain or google “serenity online reparenting the wounded child.”   Great reads.   Good day….

        1. Emily

          I think it’s the ago-old war between logic and emotion. Logically, you may know one man makes a better partner for you, but it can be difficult to feel much for him. At the end of the day, it just depends on what each person is looking for. There are people who make all their choices based on logic. There are others who make them based on emotion. I tend to be in the later category. I jump in and enjoy the ride … while I also fear the landing.

        2. Buck25


          You make your choices, and take your chances. Those “landings” can be a little rough; like jumping with a parachute that malfunctions, it’s not the fall that’s dangerous…just the sudden stop at the end.

        3. ScottH

          Emily- you won’t fear the landings so much if you balance  your emotions with a  little more logic.     In fact, you just might love the landings if you do this.

          I think this is the basis for most of Evan’s (good) advice.   The “old brain” is very powerful.   Listen to it but heed the judgment of the modern brain.   You’ll get much better results that way.

        4. Emily

          Scott H — Intellectually, I understand what you are saying, and you make a good point. But as a woman — emotionally, sexually — I am not there yet. I don’t really have to be. I’m in no rush. I don’t want kids. I’ll take riding the emotion now because there’s nothing quite like it. The thinking can come later.

        5. Karmic Equation

          And Emily, that’s how you’re going to get your heart broken over and over again and then become the bitter woman that  no man wants to date, when you’re finally ready to settle down.

          An activated attachment system is NOT love.

        6. Emily

          Karmic Equation — If you can define what love is, you have solved a mystery for the ages.

      2. 9.1.2


        Love has different meanings for different people. Some define it as feeling strong affection towards another. I agree with that, but also believe it’s concern for the other’s well being and happiness. Most importantly, are you willing to put the other persons needs above your own and (if it’s romantic love) do they reciprocate? I love my children. I would sacrifice my life for them. To me, that is love.

        1. Emily

          Agreed. Love has a multitude of definitions. To me, love means the object of my affection is lovABLE, He is warm, compassionate and supportive. He cares about me and invests in me the way I invest in him. We are fond of each other, like each other and enjoy being together. This could describe a close friendship as well as a romantic relationship.

  10. 10

    As a 5′ 11″ woman, my experience has shown the following:

    1.   It’s not all about women wanting to date tall guys.   There’s a significant number of men who don’t want to date women taller than them.


    2.   I have dated men as tall as 6′ 8″ and as short as 5′ 3″.   I prefer to date men between 5′ 8″ and 6′ 4″.   Outside of that range I’ve found it to be awkward for a variety of different reasons.


    3.   The vast majority of men under 6′ lie about their height to try and get as close to 6′ as possible.   I’ve had guys standing right next to me tell me they are 6′ tall and when I mention I’m 5’11” and appear to be taller   they respond yes but you are wearing heels.   Then they look at my shoes, only to realize I have on flats.   I find that to be a turn off, even if I liked the guy and wanted to continue date him.   It shows he obviously isn’t comfortable with who he is and frankly, will try to convince me he’s right despite all evidence to the contrary.   If he’d laugh and say something like – dang it! You got me there, i’d think nothing if it and keep dating him.

    Just my .02 cents worth.

  11. 11

    I think those that use  the ‘I’m attracted to what I’m attrated to and I can’t help it’ excuse for preferring a tall man (6′ or taller) are kind of missing a big point that Evan made in the video.   That only 14% of the male population actually fit into that category.   Which means that effectively women that hold firm to this preference are eliminating 86%(!) of the male population for dating.   Okay, then.   Good luck with that.

  12. 12

    There’s a difference between “preference” and “requirement”. I am, on average, more attracted to tall men, therefore I prefer them over short guys. But I would also date a man who isn’t very tall, if I found myself attracted to him. That’s the difference, I think: if you refuse to even consider someone because they don’t meet some arbitrary standard, then it’s a requirement (and usually a bogus one at that). It’s okay to have preferences as long as you’re open to people who don’t necessarily fit your ideal type. If you’re holding out for a perfect, magical combination of traits, you’re going to be waiting an awfully long time!

    1. 12.1


      I completely agree. One will rarely come across a woman who would be attracted to a short man over a tall one (the same way the majority of men who prefer slim to fat).   However, the key is to understand that there needs to be wiggle room in our preferences and we shouldn’t make it a requirement because we would risk ending up alone.   However, I think there is a cut off point for anyone.   I think I am far from shallow but there is nothing I can do to make myself attracted to a man who is 5’5″ for instance.   On the other hand, I dont need 6′ feet and above and would certainly date a guy shorter. But we all have things that we are definitively not attracted to and no amount of open mindedness will change it. It just is.

      1. 12.1.1

        “the same way the majority of men who prefer slim to fat”

        Ummm……… I know you’re not going to believe this but the majority of women prefer slim to fat as well. Including over weight women. Most obese women won’t even think of dating or responding to an obese man online. Somewhere along the line in society BBW women got it in their heads that they too deserve slim men. Heavy short men have zero value on online dating sites. Heavy taller men may be a little higher in value but not much. The point is anyone can lose weight but men can’t gain height.

        1. N

          All my male buddies ranging from 5’10”-6’4″, pudgy to athletic, all have higher degrees, make great living, prefer hot, attractive,   thin, petite women. People want what they want. It doesn’t mean they are going to get it.

        2. Buck25

          That’s been my experience too, JB, especially online; even extremely obese women (as in over 250  pounds) seem to think they’re entitled to fit, trim and usually younger men.   I think anyone would acknowledge that a 300 pound woman in her seventies whose profile seeks a man”athletic and toned”   and no older than 69 definitely has an unrealistically entitled attitude! I’ve seen several of those because they emailed me, wanting to know why I hadn’t contacted them! Needless to say, I immediately hit “delete”!  Matter of fact, almost all the “fat acceptance” rhetoric I’ve heard, has come from women, not men. Sorry,   but morbid obesity is unhealthy and just plain gross, in either gender. so NO fat acceptance here!

        3. L

          I have to be honest, as a woman, while I prefer men over 5’9″, I will bend on that.   I will not bend much on weight.   While I don’t expect a guy to be an Adonis with a perfect body – I’m not! – I will not date a guy that is very overweight. I will date a guy with 10 extra pounds, but beyond that, I won’t be attracted to him.   As a woman, I happen to be slim.   I wear a size 6.   Most of the men I date also have a preference for slim women.   Of course, weight can change.   You simply don’t know that the fit man you are dating will stay that way!   Height is pretty much forever but weight can wildly fluctuate!

  13. 13

    ‘The point is anyone can lose weight but men can’t gain height.’

    Well, I would argue that if anyone can lose weight, then both men and women should understand this and not let weight be a deterrent. However, it is. Noone sees the potential for weight loss when searching for romantic love and meeting someone. They just see what is in front of them (as with height).

    I understand that men cant gain height but that fact still does not create attraction even with that knowledge. Again, I do agree that women should be more flexible but like I said before, there is a cut off point like anything else and just like we dont ask a man to force attraction, I would not ask a woman to force hers.

    1. 13.1
      In Not Of

      There’s no drama with bread and ice cream. 😜

    2. 13.2

      The further point of which is, if you are overweight, and you want to attract a quality date, then get off your duff, and lose the weight. Don’t talk about it, don’t promise to do it…JUST DO IT!   

      I have no reason to care who you were or what you accomplished twenty years ago, or last year. I have no reason to care who you wish you were, or want to be, or might be, or promise to be, or maybe could be, sometime in the indefinite future. Anybody can talk the talk; the real question is, do you walk the walk? All I have to go on, is what you bring to the table, right here, right now…and that’s all you have to go on with me, as well. What you see is most likely what you’re going to get. The problem with accepting someone based on “potential to change”, is that your acceptance is conditional-you expect that person to change to suit your needs. Congratulations; your “”acceptance” just made someone else your “project”! As a man, I don’t want to be any woman’s “reclamation project” (and I suspect you don’t want to be my “reclamation project” either).

      So if you’re not satisfied with my height, I’m not going to try to persuade you otherwise; that’s not going to change anyway. Same with my age; I’m not going to get any younger. That said, I’m also not going to ask any woman to accept me based on speculation on whether I might become someone who looks/acts the way she wants. I put my best out there; without lies or “embellishments”.   Either a woman wants that, or she doesn’t. I don’t control someone else’s preferences; they are what they are; it’s not my job to change them. All I can do is be the best 5’9″, 67 year old man I can be, physically and emotionally. I can’t do more, and I’ll be damned If I can see any reason to do less.

      Let me ask a question here, that applies to both genders; Do you seriously want to offer a prospective life partner something less than the best man or woman you can be? (Not “perfect”, not “someone else’s best”…YOUR best). Well, DO YOU? Is that what you want from him/her-“Half measures”? “Maybe good enough”? “”Getting by”?    “Whatever I can get away with”? If   that’s what you’re willing to give, what do you really expect to receive?


      1. 13.2.1

        In agreement with you on the fact that all we have to go on is right here and now. But, as a 67 year old, surely you can take into account that things can change; people can change. So if you fall in love and marry a fit, attractive woman and she gains 50 lbs, are you going to divorce her? Maybe she isn’t a lazy slob who sits around watching soaps and eating bon-bons. Maybe she develops a thyroid problem or some other illness which causes her to gain weight. Does that make a difference or is she suddenly seen as unworthy of your love and devotion?

        Buck, I might have you confused with someone else and if so, please forgive me, but if you’re the man who is dating the woman who was once morbidly obese, this applies to you. What if she slips back into that unhealthy lifestyle and gains her weight back? Is she history? Just curious. We all have our deal breakers. Mine are infidelity or any type of abuse, not a change in appearance. If you’re with someone long enough, not only will they age, but there will also be fluctuations in weight up and down over the years. So if I’m married to a man with a perfect physique and every two years, he gains 30 lbs, am I to leave him and then take him back once he loses it? It all just seems incredibly shallow. I would much rather be with a man who is 15, 20 lbs over his ideal weight, than with a man who spends 2 hours a day in the gym, 20 minutes flexing in front of the mirror, and has my kitchen cabinets overflowing with supplements and protein powders.

        1. Buck25


          First of all,   if I spent any significant amount of time worrying about everything that might possibly happen at some point in the future, I expect I’d soon have a life consumed with worry (after all the possibilities for what might go wrong are endless). It’s possible, that I may walk out the door tomorrow, and be struck dead by a meteorite; it’s far more possible, that I could have a stroke, and wind up paralyzed, or dead. It’s possible, that my much younger girlfriend could die before I do. It’s even possible, that the sun could go supernova, and incinerate the earth tomorrow.

          If I’ve learned one thing in my 67 years on this planet, it’s that nothing in life comes with a guarantee. Nor is there any way I or anyone else can provide for every contingency that might come up. Instead, we rely on what we know today, for giving us the best idea of what’s likely to happen tomorrow, and plan accordingly; the vast majority of the time, that works out just fine.

          Now how does that apply to the matter at hand? Well, barring catastrophic illness or accident, someone who enjoys a fit, active lifestyle, is most likely to maintain it; With time, he or she may indeed became a little less fit, and a little less active, but rarely dramatically so. People indeed do change, but fundamentally most of us are creatures of habit, once those habits are ingrained.

          It doesn’t take hours of workouts, or a ton of supplements, to maintain a pretty decent level of fitness. You don’t have to be a body builder, or a world-class athlete, or train like one, unless you just want to. My daily walk takes up about an hour; but that’s also part of my contemplative time. I might actually do about an hour of light resistance training and stretching. I eat sensibly, mostly protein, very little sugar and carbs. That’s it. I’m not a gym rat; don’t need to be, and I don’t have a pantry full of supplements.

          Now let me get back to your question about my girlfriend. Your memory is accurate; I mentioned that she was at one time morbidly obese (had been since childhood). She had gastric bypass surgery several years ago; the added weight she gained after her little girl was born had left her almost completely disabled.The 5’3″ woman who weighed over 300 pounds now weighs a little over 130. Her weight is now stable enough for her to have surgery to remove all the excess folds of skin; her doctors tell us that after she heals, she’ll be somewhere around 120. She might in time gain some weight (not likely, they say), but it should be minimal; she simply can’t eat that much, and never will be able to. Easy? NO, but she’ll tell you it was worth it; for the first time in her adult life, she feels pretty…and she is.

          There’s a footnote to this story, and this is as good a place to add it as any. In a lifetime of relationships, including three marriages, I’ve had exactly two relationships where not only the emotional compatibility was great, but the physical attraction (for both parties) was off the charts. Not surprising..except that neither woman was, objectively speaking, among the most physically attractive I dated. I can’t say I’ve ever dated a 10, but in my younger days, I could and did date a number of solid 8s, very pretty women, most with very nice personalities. Yet, the first woman to really “rock my world” from the very beginning, was a cute, but certainly not conventionally beautiful, “girl next door ” type who objectively might have been a 6. (Being with her felt like being with the most beautiful woman on earth, just the same). I had just come out of an abusive marriage (happens to men, too) and I wasn’t ready for that, so it didn’t last. That was almost 40 years ago. The second, is my current girlfriend. She looks nothing like the first one; different body type, and so on; objectively just a bit above average, yet somehow, incredibly beautiful to me. Physical attraction can be a mysterious, and sometimes strange thing, of which looks are a part, but not the whole story. The rest? Your guess is as good as mine. Which brings me to ask, whether anyone else here has had a similar experience? Do we actually know what we’re looking for, until we find it?

      2. 13.2.2
        Not this again

        what would a blog post on short men and dating be without the jaded short guy chiming in to emphatically declare that he’d never date an overweight woman and by the way let me unleash my screed about why they’re lazy and slovenly if they can’t maintain basically the same weight for 50 years of marriage. Oh yeah and if you’re over   40 and fat and a woman you should just lay down in front of a fast moving bus.
        Bonus points for stating you don’t care what they were (presumably meaning they used to be thin) then talking about all of the “8s” you used to date.
        I’ve followed this blog for some time because I enjoy reading the posts and sometimes the lively discussion that ensues, even though I’m not looking for dating advice. But over time I’ve realized that a fundamental problem with some people is that they view interactions with the opposite sex (gender?) as a zero sum game. its “unfair” that women like tall men but hey men like thin women, so take that, fat girls! We win!
        I personally find taller men attractive but 1) don’t really care because I’m 5’1”³ and 2) if I did really care I still wouldn’t feel compelled to launch into a tirade of stereotypes and insults directed at short men because I happen to find them less attractive.
        Perhaps it’s because Im just exhausted anymore by the armchair anthropologists and the “I have all men/women/millennials/black people/white people/Christians/aethists/whatever pegged and they’re ALL like this!” crowd that have taken over Internet comments sections. But IMO if you can’t get past your need to assign people to boxes, you will continue to find yourself disappointed.
        And no, this is not a “fat acceptance” plea. If you don’t want to date fat men or women don’t. But your choices don’t need to be everyone else’s choices. And you don’t need to devalue them as humans just because you’re not attracted to them. I would say the same thing to a woman spouting nonsense about short men being insecure, weak and temperamental.
        For the record, the 2nd hottest and um, athletic… guy I ever dated was 5’4”³. He had no problem dating his pick of women.

  14. 14

    Ummm…my post never disagreed with you.And when it comes to weight,I am extremely fit and I am big on fitness so yea,I agree that most people   (not all) can do something about it with enough commitment. The only part of your post I wasn’t sure about was the implication that because height is different than weight and height can’t be controlled, this somehow means that women should turn a blind eye to man’s height   if that’s not what she isnt attracted to which I don’t agree with.

    But you are right:you have to find some one who will accept you AS IS regardless of where you are in terms of who you are.I can agree on that.

    1. 14.1


      That post wasn’t intended as disagreement; more as “in addition to”. We can’t (nor should we) expect someone else to change what they’re attracted to.   I intended   no “implication” that a woman ought to be expected to change her preferences as to height, or age, or anything else for that matter. If I’m not rich enough, or intelligent enough, charming enough, or handsome enough, to meet the preference of any woman, it’s neither her fault, nor is it mine; it just is. The same goes for a woman, of course; if she’s not what a man wants, that’s no one’s fault, either.

      That does not mean, however, that just because we’re not wildly attractive to most of the opposite sex (or for that matter, even if we are), any of us “deserve” a free pass on things we can improve. We can all be as fit, as pleasant, and so on, as we can be. I believe it’s better for ourselves (and perhaps for others as well), if we try to do that.

      “Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”. Remember that? Well, that’s what I had in mind.

      1. 14.1.1

        Well Said.

      2. 14.1.2


        I appreciate the long, thoughtful reply but you didn’t answer my question. If  she slips back into that unhealthy lifestyle and gains her weight back, will you dump her?

        Are you involved in politics in any capacity? Lol, just kidding.

        1. Buck25


          No, on the first question (I thought I had explained that; perhaps I wasn’t quite specific enough)

          As to your second question, I vote. Other than that, and advocating that America keep the promises the nation made to her veterans (ALL of them), active military, and their families, the answer to that is also NO.

  15. 15

    I am 5’6″ and I prefer to date men 5’8″ and taller. That isn’t to say is never date a man shorter than me, but it hasn’t happened.   I am generally attracted to men taller than me so I don’t feel like an Amazon in heels.

    I prefer lots of things – men who make over $100K, men who are physically fit, men who have at least a masters degree… Only actual deal breakers are (1) must be the same religion as me, (2) must be kind, which you learn over time, and (3) must not be socially conservative

    1. 15.1

      Nothing unreasonable in any of that; go for it! BTW, I’d fail several of those; I’m not religious, I never finished my Masters, and while I’m hardly a social conservative, my politics are rather to the right of most here, I think. It doesn’t matter; go find what makes you happy. I wish you well.:-)

      1. 15.1.1

        Bill Gates and Steve Jobs don’t/didn’t have college degrees.   They are uneducated heathens, totally undateable because of this…

        1. Buck25


          Yes, I doubt either Gates or Jobs would have attracted many women online (at least, not until they were well-known enough to be instantly recognizable). Both did quite well in the real world, though.

        2. Noemi

          True, but Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are extreme outliers. They do not represent the typical male who does not have a college degree. Nowadays, it’s incredibly easy to obtain a college degree, as easy as obtaining a high school diploma 50 years ago. Having said that, however, I don’t believe it should be as important as some women make it out to be. On the other hand, a degree in a marketable field signals to a woman that a man is financially stable.

        3. Noemi

          Buck25, I’d hazard a guess that Steve Jobs would have done well with the women online. He’s a good-looking guy, over 6 feet tall, and not to mention highly intelligent 😀

    2. 15.2

      L, what is it about a man’s stance on politics that keeps you warm at night? Sure,  a man can make certain comments that may rub you the wrong way, but does a man’s political stance really  matter? I lean towards liberal, but all the men I’ve dated have been more conservative. As long as they were not homophobes or identified with the KKK, their political stance did not affect the relationship in any way.

      What if you meet a wonderful man who makes 90k? Would you really rule him out? My last boyfriend was an engineer. Early in his career, he made about 60k, and ended up making 6-figures. Trust me, his income did nothing to improve our relationship.

      As long as he respects your religious beliefs, a good man who abides by a different religion is a keeper if he has great qualities. Why let a wonderful man go on account of his religious beliefs? An individual’s religious beliefs do not keep you warm at night.

      1. 15.2.1

        For politics, he must be socially liberal. So that means he can’t be against same sex marriage, must be pro choice, etc.   I think we are saying the same thing.   It’s basically a world view thing.

        Income is a preference, not a deal breaker.   Well it could be if it is very low, but I want to be in a situation where expenses are split.   I hate it when I end up paying for most things.   I will always make more money, I’ve never dated anyone who has made less than me, but   I prefer to date me who make about 1/3 of what I do.

        As for religious beliefs, I actually am not religious.   However I have children and it is important for me to have only one religion in the home.   I was in a mixed religion marriage and it was a huge source of conflict once the children came.   Lesson learned.   Once you have kids, religion is bigger than your own personal beliefs and you have to work out how the children will be raised and contend with extended family.   I’ve learned that promises made before marriage mean little.

        1. Noemi

          L, I see what you mean. If someone is adamantly against same sex marriage and goes on rants about it, I wouldn’t want to hear it, either. Most people lie on a spectrum, however, and it seems that you prefer someone who isn’t  a right-wing extremist.

          “As for religious beliefs, I actually am not religious.   However I have children and it is important for me to have only one religion in the home.   I was in a mixed religion marriage and it was a huge source of conflict once the children came.   Lesson learned.   Once you have kids, religion is bigger than your own personal beliefs and you have to work out how the children will be raised and contend with extended family.”

          It seems that a man’s ability to meet you in the middle regarding religion is of utmost concern. It also seems that your parents (unfortunately) stuck to their guns about their religious preferences instead of compromising for one another. So, it seems that for you, the issue is not his religion, but whether he is so steadfast about his children following his religion that there is no room for the both of you to meet in the middle.


        2. Chance

          L, when you say that your partner must be pro-choice, do you mean that your partner must believe that both women and men should have a choice in whether she/he wants to raise and support a child?   I’m asking this because I think most women believe that a woman should have a choice, but that a man should not.


          As it relates to potential partners, you’ll find no shortage of men who believe that a woman should be able to have an abortion if it is mutually agreed upon by both parents (religious men being the primary exception).   However, if you believe that a woman should be able to have an abortion against a man’s wishes or that a man should be forced to pay for a child that he didn’t want, then you should strongly consider relaxing this must-have because you will find almost no men who would be in agreement with this view.

    3. 15.3
      SFC Ton

      interesting how politics has replaced character for the left

      1. 15.3.1

        Views on social issues say a lot about character.   I can’t respect bigotry.

        1. Buck25


          Those views may say something about character (I personally have no use for bigotry either), but there’s a lot more to real character than tolerance, or a respect for the moral and constitutional rights of others. Honor, integrity, courage, putting service above self, and devotion to duty as best one understands that duty-these transcend political ideology, religious dogma, gender, origin or ethnicity. They are the bedrock of what Lincoln called “the better angels of our nature”. They are the hallmarks of a life well -lived, and if they are lacking, all the ideology, all the political correctness, and all the demonstrations of religious faith and fervor in the world, cannot substitute for them.

        2. KK


          Above you stated, “Matter of fact, almost all the “fat acceptance” rhetoric I’ve heard, has come from women, not men. Sorry,   but morbid obesity is unhealthy and just plain gross, in either gender. so NO fat acceptance here!”

          You claim you’re not a bigot. Lol!

        3. SFC Ton

          like the kind of bigotry that thinks social conservatives are bigots?

        4. L

          I don’t disagree that character is complex.   It takes longer to learn a person’s true character.   But early on, if I find out a guy is super conservative, it can’t work.   I once broke up with a guy when i found out that he donated money to the Santorum campaign. ;). I just can’t be with someone who supports bigotry.   That said, I would date a conservative who trends more libertarian.   I also happen to live in a politically active area that is also overwhelmingly liberal so thankfully I don’t have to worry very often about running into an anti choice, anti gay, anti Muslim, pro Trump bigot.

        5. KK

          SFC Ton,

          I don’t consider social conservatives bigots. So the answer to your question is no. I’m speaking of the bigot  who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance. My understanding is that this is the definition and what I was referencing in some of Buck’s comments.

      2. 15.3.2
        Not this again

        interesting how some people think they know what everyone on the “left” is thinking.

    4. 15.4

      I had to laugh at your comment that at 5’6″ you only date 5’8″ or taller because you don’t want to feel lika an Amazon in heels.   My first thought was how high are these heels?!   My second thought was  I’m 6’3 1/2″ in my favorite heels…

  16. 16

    I do claim that, and I stand by it. Note, please, that I did NOT say it’s ok to mistreat obese people, abuse them, make fun of them, belittle them, bully them, discriminate against them in employment, if they are otherwise qualified, etc. ” Fat shaming” is not appropriate behavior; among other things, it’s just bad manners.   Not dating obese people, however, is NOT bigotry, NOR is it bad manners; neither is refusing to date a man shorter than you want, or who smokes. It is neither wrong, nor bigoted, to refuse to accept as a romantic partner a person whose appearance, behavior or lifestyle choices   we find unattractive, nor are we under any obligation to explain,   rationalize, or otherwise ‘”justify” those personal choices. If I called you a bigot for refusing to date a man 5’2″, L, you would probably respond that I had no right to accuse you of bigotry…and you’d be quite correct.   I perhaps should have made it clearer, but where “fat acceptance” crosses the line, in my judgement, is when it’s used as a tool to shame someone (usually a man) into dating someone they’d rather not. NONE of us has the right, to tell someone else who they shall or shall not love..NOR is it appropriate to call someone a racist, a bigot,   a Nazi, or any other emotionally loaded expression, to try to enforce our personal ideals. I note that to do so, is to trivialize REAL bigotry, racism, etc.

    1. 16.1

      P.S. I’m sorry i missed your last; The mere act of contributing to a conservative political campaign you happen to dislike, is   “evidence” of “supporting bigotry”, is it?. That’s an interesting conclusion. I see I’m dealing with someone of the Herbert Marcuse school of “tolerance”, which Marcuse defined as   limited to “progressive” thought only; any thought not deemed “progressive” enough…,well, of course, no tolerance should be extended to THAT!   Your opinion is duly noted here, and filed under “Typical Leftist Canard”.

      1. 16.1.1
        Not this again

        Buck you are the dictionary definition of a hypocrite.

  17. 17

    In my personal dating experience-I’ve dated men who were from 5’4-6’5″. My first husband was 5’5″ and 2nd was 5’8″.   I’m on the far side of 5’6″.

    Btw-the average American woman is 5’4″.

    Its a valid point Evan makes-what is really more important to a gal-inches or how he makes you feel? And as far as weight -well of course both men and women prefer someone fit. And as far as Buck getting all incensed about how dare a fat, older woman contact him online-OH MY GOSH!!   Welcome to EVERY woman’s reality in online dating!!! Hilarious. Quite commonplace as a woman to be contacted by men who declare they’re “fit and toned” who show up looking nine months pregnant and 4 inches shorter , and a decade older than they declared online-ha! Sure, it was annoying but did I jump to the conclusion that ALL men are like that? No, I met some good guys too. Did I ever think “how dare that old fatty” contact me? Did I think he thought he was “entitled”? Nope, I thought he might find me attractive. Dang, someone finds you attractive who you don’t find attractive-go figure huh?!!ha

    in fact, most men turned up much better looking in person than their pics. Why is it guys online think a pic of themself by the glow of their computer screen pointed up their nose is endearing?

  18. 18

    I appreciated the comment about partners gaining weight/thyroid/health issues (can’t remember who said it). I’ve been experiencing an Autoimmune disease/thyroid issue over the past year. I gained 35lbs (20 in just under 2 months). Once my thyroid hormone levels were optimized; I was able to start losing (got 8 lbs more to go). I struggle with chronic joint pain everyday due to my illness. I’ve honestly changed my lifestyle for the better and hopefully all the work will reward me with better health. I find myself extremely fortunate that my guy (we’ve been together 5 years) didn’t give up on me and saw that I have more to contribute to our relationship than just looks.

    1. 18.1
      Karmic Equation

      Most men who truly love you will not dump you once you’ve gained weight. I gained about 20# and when I asked my bf at the time  if he thought I was too fat, his answer was, “No, you’re perfect.” And he meant it.

      However, I was very conscious of the fact that I had gained the weight and started being more conscious of, at the very least, not gaining any more. That said, HE had gained weight also, and I also didn’t care.

      The truth is that once a woman falls in love or a man falls in love, s/he doesn’t stop loving the other person because of the weight gain. HOWEVER, sexual attraction can falter. So if sex is important to either party, then both need to be mindful of that.

      That’s why most men and women want a “fit”-tish person to date, because sexual attraction is one of the reasons we date. And most people would not choose to date an unfit person if they can date (or think they can date) a fit person.

      It’s much more reasonable to expect that most people prefer to date someone in their own fitness (as well as age) category — but some men and women are wildly unrealistic. Those people will remain single or unhappy or both.

  19. 19
    SFC Ton

    LOL at how the term bigot has been dumbed down.   much of what you are claiming is bigot was common progressive attitudes not long ago and despite your attempt to say otherwise you keep mentioning all SoCons as bigots.


    maybe your problem is you aren’t as smart as you think you are L

    1. 19.1

      Don’t waste your time arguing with them. They know the original definition of “bigot”, they’ve just “tweaked it a bit” because it suits their purposes ; in the liberal lexicon, the term now translates to mean “anyone with political views I don’t like”. Criticize their ideology, and their instinctive response is loaded words: “Racist”, Bigot” ,”Sexist”, “Homophobe”, and if you really make them mad, they’ll call you “Nazi”-their ultimate term for evil. Never mind the inconvenient fact that Stalin and Mao murdered on a scale that makes Hitler look civilized by comparison, “Nazi” is their ultimate bogeyman (“Communist” is too uncomfortably close to their own ideology). Remember that back in the sixties and seventies, a lot of their current older leaders were waving VC flags, dodging the draft, cheering for Uncle Ho, and bombing ROTC buildings. Those same radicals are now the senior liberal leaders; in politics, in think tanks, and academia. Those are the leaders, the “heroes” and antecedents of the current crop. They love to inflame, incite and argue with emotion instead of facts; it’s what the Left does, when the facts aren’t on their side. Read Herbert Marcuse’s A critique of Pure Tolerance,   and Saul “The Red” Alinsky’s Rules For Radicals. and you’ll understand their playbook.

      1. 19.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Buck, you’re tiresome. You were the one who called the left Nazis. You are the one who is trafficking in emotion and false equivalents. You are the one who is still in Vietnam emotionally. Long story short: if you don’t like my politics, you can leave any time. It has nothing to do with what I do here, but it’s the free market, you know?

        1. Buck25

          Evan, you may not agree with , or like my views. However, that doesn’t make it right to attribute to me things I did NOT say. What I said, was that the far Left, and Neo-Nazis, were the flip sides of the same intellectually dishonest coin.  NOWHERE, absolutely nowhere,   did I ever “call the left   “Nazis”.   I said precisely what I meant; you chose to twist the statement into something it clearly does not say.  I don’t wish to argue politics with you, as we will never agree, but I would appreciate it if you would please try not to mischaracterize what I say. You did something similar in virtually calling me MGTOW over a post I clearly labeled as “SATIRE”. You dislike my views, that’s fine, but once again, please try to read carefully before you react. I know you read a lot of comments here, I know you find that tiresome at times, but still….

      2. 19.1.2

        Buck – Many voices on the far right throw the term “nazi” around.   Obama is constantly being compared to Hitler.   And they use the term “nazi” for anything they don’t like from The Affordable Health Care Plan, to school lunch requirements.   Sure, there are many things that I consider to be government over reach, but a school policy that tells parents what to pack in their child’s school lunch is an example of gov’t over reach, and is in no way comparable to genocide.   But this is an example of the right using the term “nazi” because they don’t want the public schools telling them what to pack in their kids lunch.   (Ironically, they DO want the public schools to re-instate compulsory prayer and bible reading, and call the lack of compulsory prayer and bible reading in public school “nazi-ism” as well.)

        I don’t like ANYONE on either side of the spectrum throwing the term “Nazi” around, but it’s very dishonest to claim that ONLY “the left” does this.     And comparing something to “nazi-ism” as an opposite side of the coin or whatever, is doing just that, so don’t try to back peddle on that.

        1. Buck25


          My point was, and is, that both   far right Nazi-ism (Fascism) and   far left socialism are fundamentally totalitarian ideologies. Both advocate the primacy of the state; both fundamentally oppose individual liberty, and adherents of both ideologies promulgate the lie that the individual is better off as the slave of the (supposedly benevolent) ideological state, than as a free citizen. I happen to believe that no authoritarian state is ever benevolent (not for long, anyway) so I despise BOTH of these ideological extremes equally. That’s the last political discourse I intend to engage in here.

      3. 19.1.3

        Buck25, if you want to get a glimpse of  people who argue with emotion, just tune into Fox News once in awhile. You’ll find right wing fanatics like David Horowitz, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck referring to Obama as a Communist. And they’re not simply using it as a broad pejorative term, they actually believe that the US President is a Marxist. This type of demagoguery and idiocy goes well beyond anything the left engages in. When we call those on the right fascists and racists, we’re referring to the Tea Party bigots and the nativist white nationalist and populist fascists like Donald Trump and Ann Coulter, and I could easily support that charge by providing quotes. I have disagreements with Ron Paul, Jeb Bush, and many of the other Republican Candidates, but I wouldn’t call them fascists.

        Also, if certain conservatives are incapable of securing jobs in academia, it has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination. As someone who is currently in academia, I can tell you that most of the big universities are conservative institutions. Just visit any Economics Department. In order to secure a position on a university faculty you need peer reviewed journal publications and books with university presses, and most of the people who get their information from Fox News lack both.

        Finally, I like how you disparage all the anti-Vietnam protesters while attempting to glorify a war that was predicated on the indiscriminate destruction of a peasant country.

        1. Buck25


          I was going to let that pass, until your last comment. What I have to say about that, is NOT political.

          Glorify a war? GLORIFY it? I not only haven’t; I’ve never known a man who fought a war, any war, who would.   War is not what you see on the six-o’clock news, or what you read in a history book. It’s far worse than that. For those who fight it, war is a brutal nightmare of   death, horror, revulsion, cruelty, terror and loss; It’s a walk through hell itself, and the man who takes that walk, with a weapon in his hand, and somehow comes through it, never looks at himself, or the world, in the same way again. Pretty hard to do that, when a man has had to confront the darkest instincts of humankind, and realized that some of that darkness lives within him, too..   He spends the rest of your life, reconciling that, with everything he thought   you knew about himself. There may be courage, honor, sacrifice and even acts of mercy in it all; I’ve seen that too, but there’s no glory in it. When it’s all over, a soldier has as many dead friends as live ones, and some awful memories burned into his soul that he revisits for the rest of his days. Where’s the “glory ” in that?

          I don’t know what else you think we did over there. I will tell you that most of us had no interest in killing or brutalizing the innocent, or “oppressing peasants”. A lot of times, we did the best we could for those poor people; tried to protect them when we could; gave them food, and medical care (sometimes, the only medical care they’d ever had).   Mostly we just tried to do our duty, and keep ourselves and our brothers alive. In combat, we didn’t fight for ideology or the flag, or even the people back home; in the end, we fought for each other, because that was all we had. That’s reality too.

          We all came home to a country where it seems like half the country hated us, and the other half just wanted to forget. I haven’t since had even one person ask me what Vietnam was really like, or how I felt about it; but I’ve had a lot of people who weren’t there, tell me what they think I did, and how I should feel about it. Yes, most of us are proud of what we did, or at least tried to do; we answered the call, and we did our best, in a bad situation. I’ve never met a man who served there, who thought he was a hero; we’re survivors; you can find the names of our heroes, on a long black Wall. I don’t think most of us want your sympathy, your pity, or even your gratitude. I know I don’t. A little understanding might have been nice; but that’s been in pretty short supply, and still is. The only place we’ll ever get that, is from each other.

          Other than that, I really don’t care what you think you know about Vietnam, or how you think that “homecoming” we got might have felt, or whether you think we “deserved” it. I just hope that never happens to another generation of American veterans.

          That is all.

        2. Noemi

          “Also, if certain conservatives are incapable of securing jobs in academia, it has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination.”

          I don’t know how this has turned into a political discussion, but I beg to differ on your comments! Conservatives face unique obstacles in academia. They are a rare breed; if you survey professors from college campuses across the country, most would identify as liberal.  Of course, this varies depending on the field of study in question (economics versus humanities, for instance), but the majority of professors are liberal. I think it’s somewhere around 80 percent.

          Try being a conservative professor in a traditionally liberal field. You will be crucified. You will be prevented from obtaining a job at most universities. Consider the field of criminology, for instance. Most criminologists identify as liberal. Any conservative criminologist will tell you how often he/she is crucified at conferences, harassed by his/her colleagues, and prevented from applying at certain universities.

  20. 20

    @Karmic-very true! I personally believe like attracts like. And yes, there are both women and men who are quite unrealistic. My group of girlfriends had an acquaintance who would tag along who was very unrealistic. She constantly expounded on her “big” career, nice car, renovated gourmet kitchen,etc. She was quite average looks wise with just an awfully condescending, braggart personality. She just never could fathom why the guys she was attracted to didn’t feel the same.   She’d actually talk negatively about the guys we’d meet and gave our numbers out to. I always wonder if folks who denounce the other gender as undateable and entitled as really being the unrealistic ones. Plenty of folks seem to date but if you constantly find fault with the opposite sex- me thinks you’re the one with the problems.

    And yes, I agree about sexual attraction faltering. Luckily, no problem on that front. I think genuinely making an effort helps. Progress on improving helps. Forward motion.

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