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Not because you’re insecure that he’s going to like you; you’re actually quite confident that most men will respond to you.
The nervousness I’m referring to comes wanting to know what happens AFTER the first date. Your questions buzz through your head.
Is he financially stable?
Is he close with his family? Is he emotionally available?
Is he in a place where he wants a long-term relationship?
Is he going to call me tomorrow to say he wants to see me again?
In other words, you want to know the future — and protect yourself from heartbreak by figuring it out as soon as possible.
I don’t blame you. The problem is that even HE doesn’t know the future.
Let me share a story with you. I got a new private client the other day. Early 40’s, bright, successful, and really excited about coaching and learning about the opposite sex. This woman is not just an avid dater — she’s a learning-about-men MACHINE. (I love women like this, by the way.)
As she peppered me with questions, it was clear to me that she had done a lot of research. It was also clear that she had her ideas formed by what she had read previously.
This is dangerous.
You know what a first date is for? It’s for FUN.
Because while there’s a lot of good stuff out there, no one expert has all the answers. When you start believing that one person (including me) has the gospel, you cease being a critical thinker. I read a lot, but I always draw my own conclusions and judge whether it’s effective in the real world. I would encourage you to do so as well.
Here’s a perfect example of advice that sounds good in theory, but doesn’t hold up in practice:
Two prominent relationship experts — both 50-year-old women who haven’t dated in 20 years – advise women to tell men what they’re looking for on a first date.
They suggest that if you’re serious about marriage and children, you should put that on the table from the get-go on Date 1. The theory is that you don’t want to waste time — yours or his — and if your “honesty” frightens him off, he’s not the right guy for you.
This is WRONG. Dead wrong. Like, it’s so wrong, that I can’t even fathom that my esteemed, well-intentioned colleagues would pass this off as valid advice to unsuspecting women who trust them with their lives.
Here’s why:
In being “honest”, you’re sabotaging the dating process and making the man NOT want to get to know you better.
Not because you want to get married and have kids — he does, too! — but because you sound needy and desperate and tone-deaf to the normal conventions of first dates.
You know what a first date is for? It’s for FUN. It’s for you to get a better sense of me and whether I’m a solid catch, it’s for me to determine if we’ve got some attraction and easy conversation — and it’s for both of us to determine whether there’s enough potential to meet for a second date. That’s all.
When you introduce concepts like marriage, kids, religion, politics, money — trying to ensure that the person across from you is a good long-term prospect, you essentially turn from a pleasant, fun, likeable person …into The Interrogator.
Men don’t like the Interrogator.
Doesn’t matter if The Interrogator is smart, hot, and interesting. If a man gets the sense that you’re testing him for earning potential, or fathering potential, or husband potential, he’s not going to feel comfortable.
Men don’t like the Interrogator.
Because suddenly he’s not the guy who’s buying your drinks and trying to make you laugh — he’s being interviewed like an intern who is applying for a lifetime job at your company. Believe me, that doesn’t make him like you more.
And if you want to get a second date, it’s kind of important for him to like you!
Which is why it’s my job to tell you to ignore this kind of well-intentioned advice. It may sound great in theory, but in practice, it falls apart.
Let me show you how.
First: Imagine you had a boyfriend you LOVED. And he told you after 8 months together that he was taking Zoloft to keep his mood up. Would you dump him? I sure hope not.
Now imagine that he told you that on the first date. Does he get a second date? I’d be surprised if he did.
There are things that we’re willing to hear LATER in the dating process — once the ice has been broken, the foundation has been laid, and the relationship is strong.
And your desire for marriage, family, and the ability to potentially be a stay-at-home mom is something that you’re better off springing once he already LIKES you and has something invested in you — not right after he learns what you do for a living.
To suggest otherwise — to encourage you to “save time” by offering your innermost desires on Date 1 — is simply irresponsible and ineffective.
For every bad man you scare away because he’s not ready for a relationship, you also scare away a good one who IS ready, but wants to date a well-adjusted woman who knows better than to get so heavy on a first date.
I think the well-intentioned but incorrect advise of laying all your cards on the table early is put forth in the interests of “not wasting time.” While I can understand not wanting to invest months in someone who is not a good long-term prospect, attempting to screen them this early is counter-productive.
As you say, a first date should be FUN. I went on a lot of first dates during my online dating days, and I can safely say that none of them were a waste of time. Most didn’t lead to a second date, but I still had a good time getting out and getting to know an attractive guy. Even the one time the date was not good, it still made for an interesting story.
I think too many women (and some men) are so fixated on their final “goal” of finding a long-term partner that they forget to enjoy the journey.
what a GREAT advice! enjoy the journey and dont focus on the end result! LOVE IT! thank you!
I’ve used this approach in my dating this year – it appealed to me just because I’m generally positive and fun, and at the same time pretty selective. I figured, since the odds of me liking a guy enough to want a second date are fairly low, so why don’t I just make sure both of us have a good time. I have two teenage sons, most of my friends throughout my life have been male, so I’m “one of the guys” and get them pretty well. So, for a first date, I show up with a huge smile on my face, I laugh at his funny stories, I listen attentively to his tales of woe. I make him laugh – a lot, in fact (guys really like my sense of humor). Every single time when the check comes, I reach for my wallet. And, if needed, I open it and pay for a drink or my half or whatever. I mirror whatever degree of physical contact he wants to maintain when we say good-bye. Everyone leaves happy, no one’s time is wasted.
Sounds good, right? Well guess what, this approach seems to work very well on guys that you can’t pay me enough to go on a second date with. Safe, needy, clingy, boring guys. The ones I like – the smart, funny and confident ones? Well I guess it sort of worked on one of them (we went out for another month and then both agreed it wasn’t working well enough for us to get into a deeper relationship). Two disappeared without a trace – never heard from them again after the first date. Another one really liked me and wanted to come back for more (and was very sweet about it), but he was from out of town and it had been a “no-pressure dinner” to begin with. Last one I went out with that I liked, texted back saying there was no spark, then came back for two more amazing dates (amazing for me, anyway…), then said “um, no, still no spark” and left for good, which hit me pretty hard. Still recovering from that one.
So, two weeks ago, after this last guy walked out on me, I figured I’d bite the bullet and buy Why He Disappeared, to find out why the kind of guy I attract with my first-date behavior is the opposite of what I want to attract, and also the opposite of what I know from experience that I would have a good relationship with (I’ve dated enough RL friends to know what works and what doesn’t). It turned out to be a really good read, thank you Evan 🙂 and my take-away from it so far has been that, on first dates, I might be concentrating too much on making sure that the guy has fun. I put up a whole standup act, I meet at a place convenient to him, I offer all kinds of help… don’t get me wrong he has a good time. By the time he walks away, he’s been entertained, he’s been pampered, he’s got my leftover dinner in a box to take home with him so he won’t have to cook the next day… But he cannot really tell whether he has shown me a good time or not. I was too busy taking care of him to really show my appreciation for what he did for me on that date.
So, last weekend, for my first date with a really cool guy I’d met shortly before, I decided to switch gears, listen more, and entertain less. I also warned him of this flaw that I have, and said that I do this unintentionally and with the guy’s best interests in mind. And then I tried really hard not to do it. Well it’s too early to tell, but so far, the man is sticking around, following up daily, making future plans and doing all the things no one has ever done for me in my short dating history (a little over a year). Time will tell 🙂
I personally would never bring up that I want to get married on a first date; I might want to get married – but not necessarily to HIM. I have had guys ask me on a first date what I want: and I say “if the right guy comes along, I would consider it though.”
I have been on dates where I have felt that I am being sized up as potential wife/mother to his kid/etc. It is disconcerting.
Goldie – can I ask how you meet people? Are you on match?
Evan, your example is really interesting to me because variations of it have been coming up on other dating sites recently. I have to say as a man who has been serious about finding a long term, committed relationship – I’m kind of torn about the disclosure issue.
When it comes to online dating, it seems very valid to me to spell out some of your long term relationship goals – if you have them – right in the profile. Theoretically, this would help weed out those looking for something casual before you actually meet them. (It doesn’t always work obviously, but I think making it clear that you’re looking for marriage and children in the long term is really helpful, and a good filter as well.)
On the opposite end, I wrote a post recently detailing an experience I had with a woman who popped an “I want babies now” statement on me on date number two. It felt beyond rushed, and certainly scared me away from pursuing a relationship with her.
http://21centuryrelationships.blogspot.com/2011/08/talkin-babies.html
So, I think there needs to be some kind of balance between having fun and enjoying yourself on first dates, and doing some sussing out of what the other person wants and where they see themselves heading in life. At least in general.
I don’t understand why telling a guy that your hope is to marry and have children makes a woman appear desperate and needy. Also, I don’t think saying that AND having fun are mutually exclusive. Isn’t part of deciding if you are a good catch is seeing if we want the same thing. If he wants a FWB and I want marriage, I really do want to know that sooner rather than later. And the men I have dated have often been very honest about what they want on the first date. If they don’t want what I do, I move on. I really don’t understand why that’s bad.
I am not certain it is fair to criticize your colleagues for not dating as you yourself have been off the market for quite a few years. I suspect if they were 50 and single then they’d be criticized for that as well.
Congrats, Goldie!
I’m glad you are finding the difference between being fun and enjoying yourself and entertaining others so completely you lose yourself….
I always used to entertain my dates. And they all used to call me back! But I wasn’t really being myself. Also, I found that my trying to be superfun and super-easy was a different way of exerting control over the situation.
I think the key that Evan is pointing out is to relax and be receptive and easygoing to have a good time. In my (soon-to-be married) experience, guys like when you are nice, open and receptive to them and mostly, they want to see that they can make you happy.
That said, it is really, really hard to go out on dates and not know where things are going. But if you *don’t* overly entertain, and are just receptive, it’s less disappointing.
Kenley, telling a guy on the first date that you hope to get married is INEFFECTIVE because it’s tone-deaf to normal first date behavior. It’s not that the intention is wrong; it’s the execution that leaves a lot to be desired. I can’t tell you how many women clients have told me how creeped out they are when a guy instantly starts talking about marriage. It works both way, folks.
And I’m not criticizing my esteemed colleagues BECAUSE they’re married. I’m married, too. I’m criticizing them because I fear they’ve been out of the market for so long that they’ve forgotten how real people react in real situations. Some advice makes sense in theory, but falls down in practice. This is one of those times.
I agree with you, Evan. Last night I went out on a first date with a seemingly nice guy, and he asked me three times if I wanted children. He also told me about his medical history and the sort of meds he takes. TMI. And the questioning about me wanting children or not was annoying. I will not go out with him for a second date.
I agree with Evan Marc Katz as I had the same experiences from both side. I myself as a woman don’t like to mention that I want marriage on the first date. But, I decided to listen to some women relationship counsellors and I brought that up in the chat I do and on the first date with men. I felt needy and desperate within me and it was not a right felling for me either… Although, the guy I dated still wanted to see me for a while, but I could observe myself how controlling I am on him to make sure he is the one as I only date men for marriage… Instead I could date other men at the same time and select which one is the right man for me based on what I really want and be a lady :). feminine, fun and secure …..
Also, once I dated a gentleman a few years ago who from the first date he was telling and pushing me that he wants long term relationship. then week after he told he wants kid too in a year and half.. then he asked me to move in together…All, in a month or so??? Honestly, it was scary and I judged him as an insecure and needy man and I said NO… a big NO… then he started judging me back that I would not be a right person for him and not a good mother for our kids :))). so, what happened ? he lost me. Although, if he was letting the dating process goes smoothly and properly and I would feel comfortable around him. I was sure he was the one :). But he went too far….
@ adk #6:
“Also, I found that my trying to be superfun and super-easy was a different way of exerting control over the situation.”
Yes, this is my impression too. This would definitely explain why, after dates like this, I’d have to chase the omegas off with a stick, while the alphas would never call back. The latter do not like losing control, while the former don’t really care and may even prefer it that way 😉 Too bad I didn’t buy the book sooner, wouldn’t have lost some really cool guys if I’d only parted with my $27 a few months ago rather than just now 🙁
Evan,
I’ve had first dates where the topic of marriage and children comes up in conversation. We may be talking about where we are from, where we went to college, how we came to live where we do now, where (if anywhere) we see ourselves moving, do we want marriage and kids to be a part of the picture, etc.
I’m curious, if it comes up in the flow of conversation (or he outright asks), does that change your take on things?
There’s nothing wrong with admitting, in context, that you want to be married. It would be odd NOT to deal with that in a very easygoing, matter of fact fashion.
However, that’s a VERY different thing than asking certain questions to evoke certain answers from men regarding THEIR take on marriage. If someone seems to PUSH the marriage card on the first date – man OR woman – it’s pretty bad dating etiquette.
That is very true Evan I have just realised I dumped a very good girl about ten years ago because if her comments about marriage on the second date, she must have thought I just wanted sex because she made the “sex only after marriage” comment, and I got scared off, I took it on two options: either she saw me as shallow guy and wanted to “fish” me with sex, or she was desperate…
I’ve got to ask this, though – when is it OK to ask the other person what they’re looking for, as an end goal of their dating? Happened to me twice this year that I assumed he was looking for an LTR, because I was, while he assumed I was looking for casual, because he was. I agree, first date may be too soon for this type of questions, but finding this out after four or five dates can be a tad harsh for both sides. When’s the right time? FTR, the person I’m seeing(?) right now brought this topic up himself right away, so we both know where the other one stands – but that’s a pretty rare occurrence in my experience.
I got ya. Thanks for answering Evan!
@Kenley
I’m a firm believer in making intentions clear from the outset but I think the difference is in how you make them known. To me, first dates are for gauging your interest in a person…as a person. Not as a potential husband, potential father or potential something else. From personal experience, I can say that I have been uncomfortable with men who have been highly emotional on the first date and given me their life histories along with future plans which include…you guessed it….babies. These situations do not typically yield a second date for the men in question 😛
On the other hand, I appreciate a quiet statement about future plans or expectations when made in context. If the topic comes up naturally, as it sometimes will during the course of a conversation, it makes sense to state that you are in the market for something long term with the right person. If it doesn’t, there is always the second date or the third.
@Goldie
Wonderful observation about alphas and omegas. I’m running past experiences against this and you’re spot-on! The true omegas liked being taken care of and admired my independent woman aura. While this behaviour came very naturally to me, I subconciously relegated my date to the “little brother” pile. I successfully annoyed the alphas or pseudo alphas and they disappeared.
Luckily for me, my current hottie is a happy balance of sweaty man and mushball. He lets me wear my man pants sometimes and I’ve learned to allow myself to just be taken care of on other occasions.
@Golde #8
So, you only date the A’s and the Z’s? Only the guys at the top of the social hierarchy or at the very bottom? What about all of those nice beta and gamma guys?
@ Kenley #5:
Telling a guy you want to get married and have babies on the first date, i.e. basically the first time you’ve met him, is akin to telling him, “I want to get married and have babies now!” Whereas if you mention that to him on a subsequent date (later is better, and as casually as possible is best), you’re telling him, “Yes, I want to get married and have babies, but it’s not first and foremost on my mind, and not something I need [from you] right away.” (The “from you” is what he will be thinking, even though you may not be interested in him being your husband and father of your children.)
In my online dating profile I made it very clear that I was looking for a LTR that would lead to marriage if a love match happened. Did the men I meet feel the same way? NO! They looked at my picture and hardly looked at my profile. I read all the men’s profiles that I met carefully. I did not meet any man who was looking for FWB. So, how do you know what someone is looking for if they don’t say what they want in their profile? Can you ask them a question online before you meet them? I suppose asking what they liked about my profile might at least help me know that they read my profile.
I never bring up marriage first with a man. Not on the first date or any. I think men are hard-wired to assume that most (if not all) women want a relationship and soon following marriage. Men are use to hearing, “so where is this going?” And I think, women tend to want to strike a deal first (commit the relationship) to make sure they are not wasting their time, and know that they are headed for marriage if that is what they want.
So when a budding relationship begins,I say nothing. I never talk exclusivity until they do. I always let them assume I’m dating others even if I’m not. I never mention marriage or my long term plans. I think this is not what men are use to…..and then they want to figure ME out.
Without fail, the men that I’ve had relationships with, always brought up exclusivity first, and within 6 weks. They have also been the first ones to ask me (knowing that I’m divorced) “Would you ever get married again?”, or “Do you want to be married again?”
I absolutely want marriage but I say, “Well, I’m certainly not jaded by my divorce or anything, so if the right man, and the right situation presented itself, I’d be open to it.” Then I can naturally turn the question back on them, “Why do you ask? Do you want to be married some day?” I get my answer, they brought it up, and it doesn’t appear to be my top priority.
The relationship seems to pick up after that and I think it’s because they feel no pressure from me or feel like I’m a desperate woman looking to lock them down asap. If anything, they act like they have to lock ME down because I maintain a little aloofness toward the whole subject.
A little coquette goes a long way, imo.
Talking marriage – or divorce – on the first date? Not in concrete terms (“I always thought I’d get married by my xx birthday), but maybe in vague general terms – “I would like to get married one day when the right person comes along” or “I still believe in marriage, especially if people want to have kids.”
If you meet online and your profile says you’re interested in a LTR and don’t object to kids, well, then your date knows (if he/she is paying attention) what you want and vice-versa. (Although, as SJZ points out, some people don’t read the profiles; you are totally right in asking what they liked about your profile. If they can’t remember it or can’t find one thing to mention, then that may be a flag.
As Evan says, first dates should be fun, and should help you know more about each other in genuine ways – not a set of rigid questions you ask each and every person. People respond to people who listen and ask intelligent questions that prove they’ve paying attention to who they are as individuals. And, there should be flirting!
If you go into a first date without a lot (I’d actually say no) expectations, you are much more open to having a genuine connection with someone (or quickly finding out you have no connection!)
@6
That was really perceptive ADK. It is another form of control. Never heard it said like that, but if you aren’t being yourself, and trying to be the “cool” chick, you are doing it to manipulate and control the situation.
Well said 🙂
In recent months, I’ve had a significant number of female friends talked to me about guys they are “dating.” Here’s a typical conversations:
“Who is this guy? Why I have I never heard of him before. How long have you been dating? How many dates have you been on?”
“Oh, we haven’t been on a date, we met on-line and we’ve been texting or e-mailing,” is a typical reply.
“What? You can’t be dating if you’ve never been on a date, and texting and e-mailing don’t count. Why haven’t you been on an actual date?”
“Well, he’s been hurt in the past, had two engagements broken, his wife cheated on him, etc. He’s just nervous about starting a new relationship and I’ve told him I want to get married.”
“What?!?! Why have you two shared so much information with someone you barely know, haven’t gone out with and now are not likely to ever go out with?”
They inevitably reply, “Well, I’m not telling him anything that couldn’t see in my profile on XYZ dating sight, like wanting to be in a relationship.”
“Why are you having serious discussions about weighty relationship issues before you’ve even gone on any dates to see if you like this guy? That seems backwards to me.”
“He asked. He brought up his last relationship and asked about mine.”
“So? Just because he asks doesn’t mean you have to answer.”
“Well, he texted me these questions, and it would have been rude not answer him or ignore his text.”
Really?! Really?! Whatever.
I think part of the problem is the speed of communication and many people”s perception of urgency because of that speed, creates a false sense of intimacy that doesn’t exist. And people buy into it.
It’s not just women saying. “I want to get married.” There are just as many guys signaling I just want to have fun (by which I mean sex) without commitment. It’s the age old dance. But, both parties are asking intrusive questions, and rather than enforcing boundaries, the other person is responding immediately because they think they have to. This true whether it’s in person, or via text and e-mail.
Sadly, it’s ruining a lot of potential relationships before they can even go on a date, have some fun, and get to know the other person. As Evan has pointed out before, what you think you want and what you find you care about once you get to know a person often end up being two entirely different things.
I totally agree about announcing you want marriage and kids on the first date as coming across as needy (and more than a little nutty, to be honest). The best thing you can do, if you’re nervous, is to ask lots of questions about them. Everyone likes talking about themselves, right?
Thanks for debunking an all-too-common myth, Evan.
“Everyone likes talking about themselves, right?”
I think that advice is overdone. No, not everyone likes talking, let alone love, talking about themselves. This is something that has been shoved to death down our throats and just overused to the point of being annoying to the person who now feels like they have to talk about themselves incessantly simply because the other person asked.
I’ve always gone by the “never discuss sex, religion, or politics in polite company” rule. Those topics when discussed with someone new can easily make for an uncomfortable situation, and I’ve also added other things such as marriage, medications and finances that I personally have no place in polite conversation. I just think those are very uncouth topics. I also don’t think it’s fair to interrogate people with questions you yourself probably wouldn’t like to feel obligated to answer on the first date. I know questions about my political affiliation and finances would have me completely turned off and eager to head for the door. Maybe it’s time we revised the “polite discussion” list of topics?
In my experience (and no this is not exactly a shameless plug for Evan’s work, although it should be, because he taught me) by having an engaging first phone conversation with a new online man, the first date is well set up for fun. It’s not a time for heavy anything, but a time to begin observing who he is and how he shows up. Ultimately, I’m looking for congruence of actions “in person” to the words he has written and spoken to me before we’ve met. An assessment of character happens over time and builds with all the little observations. It would be premature for me to share heartfelt dreams and desires with someone when I don’t yet really know WHO they are.
The second piece of dating advice that has been helpful is that I should only say “yes” to dates that will be fun for me, even if my companion turns out to be not to my taste. Activities that if I were doing alone, I’d have fun. This keeps me appreciative of the time spent on the date, his efforts to plan something that will please me, and ensures there is an enjoyable activity that we can both focus on, instead of a mutual navel gazing conversation.
Finance, past relationships and past break-ups/divorce are a no-no for first or even second date convo.
I met a very nice man. We had a lot in common, including amazingly we were exactly the same age (DOB within a couple of weeks of each other), had got married in the same month 14 years prior, had our honeymoons in the same country, our children were also born within a month of each other, and we had separated from our respective spouses within a month of each other. So we started talking about our respective divorces (on a first date no less!!) and he volunteered information about the asset split he and his ex were negotiating X%/Y% and I blurted out “Oh, you are very harsh on your poor wife. I am going for Z%” (higher than what he was offering his ex). He said “Gee, I’m glad I didn’t marry you first! You would leave me broke!”. So I immediately back-tracked “Well, I know I’m not going to get it, but that is what my lawyer suggested as a starting point for the negotiation.” Bad idea!! From now on I am absolutely steering clear of talk about my ex, divorce and finances…
@Evan – “he’s being interviewed like an intern who’s applying for a lifetime job at your company”
That’s exactly how I feel when I finally get a response from a woman I’ve emailed online.After the first email,with the second email the”qualifying”(interrogation) process starts.Usually they’ll dance around the”what do you do”question a bit or come right out and ask it along with other interview(interrogation) type questions.In a first email a woman last week asked me “how come you don’t have kids?” Some of them make me feel like I’m applying not for a”lifetime job”but just applying to see if I MIGHT be worthy of a “15 minute phone interview” let alone the holy grail of them all “meet for a drink” where of course I’ll be interrogated further to find out if I’m “first actual date” material…LOL Which brings us to the topic at hand,first date(interrogation) err….pleasant fun conversation.
I wonder how long it’ll be before everyone’s “LinkedIn” and Facebook profiles will just be part of their Match/Plenty Of Fish profiles??It’ll save a lot of interrogation and time.
I am a woman and have received those same questions during the first phone contact.
I have had men from online dating ask “so why have you never been married?” and “did you never want kids or were you just very focused on your career?” Awkward questions that are difficult to respond to in the short-breezy format that I usually try to maintain during the first phone contact.
My goal is to maintain a breezy, pleasant conversation centered on the mutual interests I identified from his profile. If he brings up the heavy topics, then I will respond but try to keep my answer limited, pleasant and devoid of details about past breakups.
I have always had divorce come up on the 1st date. Shop talk, I guess… Never did me any harm that I know of. Then again, every man I’ve dated envies my ex because we just each took our own and walked… One guy asked “can I divorce you?” 🙂 I guess it depends on the details. If it was civil, and you’ve remained friendly with your ex, then why not.
Likewise, religion and politics always manage to rear their ugly heads in first-date conversations. I kind of see where the guys are coming from. If your date thinks the earth was created in six days, better find that out sooner than later…
@ Annie #20:
“Never heard it said like that, but if you aren’t being yourself, and trying to be the “cool” chick, you are doing it to manipulate and control the situation.”
Unfortunately, in my case, I was being myself. When you’re around two teenage guys and a male dog at home, and in a mostly-male environment at work, over time, you tend to grow balls of steel, lol And that appendage does not go over well with the men on dates at all! So I’m going to have to soften my image a little and remember that I am on a date being wooed, not at a happy hour talking shop with the dudes, or at home trying to keep my boys organized 🙂
@Steve #15 – I date geeks. So there are no true alphas or omegas in my circle. I meant in the relative sense – the more or less confident guys, on one hand, and the more or less submissive ones, on the other. My apologies, this was probably the wrong use of terms alpha and omega, should’ve been more specific.
Plus one for making the point about critical thinking…something we should NEVER forget to do.
@JB #26
I appreciate why you felt interrogated. What would you have considered appropriate low-pressure questions for a woman to ask you in a first and second email, that are different from what she can read in your profile? What about face to face on a first date, if you have actually met in person, not online?
I have not dated actively since my separation (would prefer to have the divorce final first), but am feeling very anxious about what would be appropriate to ask and appropriate topics for conversation. When I meet people organically (not with intention to date them), I tend to come across as very flirty and we chat and laugh a lot, but then I realise I have not actually found out anything about the man. Any pointers from a man about appropriate questions that they would not mind answering early on would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Goldie #2
I think you did the right thing in trying really hard to relax, and not try so hard!
First dates are for assessing how compatible you are and if there is any chemistry. You are on dangerous ground when you communicate too much negativity and too much insecurity early on. I usually don’t get any more personal than talk about family, our work/hobbies, and general interests on first dates. Most first dates don’t progress all that far, so why reveal too much too soon?
Also, I think people communicate in code early on. You don’t want to tell someone you don’t find them attractive, so when he asks if you’d like to go out again, you say yes, even though you didn’t feel much attraction. Ot he feels that way about you, but says he’ll call anyway. That’s why a man can tell you he feels “no spark” after the first date, but still ask for a second and third, hoping he might change his mind. It’s up to you to decide if that is a risk worth taking. If a man is into a woman, he’d never tell her he didn’t feel a spark after the first date, he’d be trying to impress her and getting her to like him!
smile, nod, be perky. that’s the approach i use.
@ Goldie #27
“…. a mostly-male environment at work, over time, you tend to grow balls of steel, lol And that appendage does not go over well with the men on dates at all! So I’m going to have to soften my image a little and remember that I am on a date being wooed, not at a happy hour talking shop with the dude…”
Yup. Me too. I’m learning to mentally and energetically reframe things when I meet a new guy after work by deliberately changing out of my work clothes first, often choosing to wear a skirt. That helps me leave my man-self at the office….
Sacha asked: (#29)
“What would you have considered appropriate low-pressure questions for a woman to ask you in a first and second email, that are different from what she can read in your profile?”
I’d recommend asking questions that someone will have to answer with a story. It’s non-threatening, and you can start to learn a little bit about his personality by paying attention to the details.
A person’s profile is a great place to start. If a person has “fencing” listed as a sport that they enjoy, ask him (or her) how he got involved in fencing.
Look for something unusual in his profile, and find out the story behind it.
Better yet, figure out what he (or she) is passionate about, and get him talking about that.
These things work for normal small-talk in a non-dating environment. Instead of asking what people do for a living, I prefer to ask them what they like to do when they’re not at work.
I think people reveal themselves and their intentions very quickly in the WAY they talk about things – its not necessary to grill them on specific “topics of interest.”. Its not so important WHAT you talk about, just get them talking and you’ll find out everything you want to know about them – whether they’re sceptical or innocent, generous or mean, serious or playing around.
I am going on a first date on sunday with someone who contacted me online. He mentioned in his profile that he has a motorbike, a place in France and likes fine food and wine. I intend to lead with the motorbike. Get him talking about something he’s enthusiastic about, and you’ll learn a lot. Does he tell you how expensive it was, or complain about the running costs? Does he enjoy being at one with nature alone on wild mountain biker trails, or spend every weekend with a gang of 20 biker mates he’s known since he was 15, camping in the rain and geting drunk? Or does he whiz around Europe looking cool and staying at the best hotels?
I’ll also say – ” So you enjoy spending time in France?” rather than “tell me about your place in France” – which might sound like I was looking for free holidays or just interested in someone with a second home. When I get him talking about France, I’ll find out if he just likes the cheap wine and hates the locals, or is an art buff, of just likes going places with hot weather. I’ll also find out if he makes me laugh, telling crazy stories about his manly escapades, or bores me with details of road networks and flat tyres.
At the end of the day, what you want to come away with from a first date is a sense of who this person IS in themselves, and whether you’re ATTRACTED to them. If you’re not, it doesn’t matter whether they’re interested in marriage or not!.
As to their “intentions” these slip out without men even noticing if you just let them talk. Not so long ago I met a guy who had only recently moved to my area, but when talking about his job in the ski business came out with the fact that he was really keen on the idea of opening his own ski shop in the Alps. I have no intention of moving to the Alps, and a guy who was interested in settling into a serious relationship would not have blithely mentioned moving away on our second date! I rest my case.
Teresa,
What do you do? Just curious.
helene said: (#34)
“I have no intention of moving to the Alps, and a guy who was interested in settling into a serious relationship would not have blithely mentioned moving away on our second date!”
I seem to be missing something. Is there something about the Alps that would prevent him from settling into a serious relationship with a woman?
Obviously he can’t settle into a serious relationship with you and also move to the Alps (though he may have been unaware of that on the 2nd date), but I’m sure he could find some women in my neighborhood who would be willing to move to the Alps … and it sounds like you live much closer to the Alps than I do. And even if he can’t find a woman in your area who is willing to move to the Alps with him, he can continue pursuing a serious relationship after he moves to the Alps.
No matter how interested he was in a serious relationship (in general), I wouldn’t expect him to be interested in a serious relationship with you by the second date. I only know a couple guys who are likely to decide that they want a serious relationship on the first or second date … and they come across as unstable/stalker types.
helene said: (#34)
“As to their ‘intentions’ these slip out without men even noticing if you just let them talk.”
That sounds like the sort of thing I might let “slip out” intentionally.
If it’s his dream to open a shop in the Alps, he’s probably willing to postpone a serious relationship in order to fulfill that dream. He could want a serious relationship, but still have it be priority #2.
In many ways, he sounds like the women who bring up children on the first couple dates (though he sounds more subtle). If a woman isn’t interested in moving to the Alps with him, he’s not wasting more than two dates on her.
@Goldie #2, You give your dates your leftover dinner?? Too motherly for a first date, in my opinion… and kind of gross… sorry, but I ´d never accept leftovers from a first date! Having fun on a date is one thing, but overly pampering a man on a first date is a no-no, in my book… Best of luck.
@Sasca #29,Karls’ right try and keep it light,fun,and upbeat.Ask about hobbies and interest’s that are in his profile etc… I’ve always found that when a woman says or asks “tell me about yourself,do you enjoy what you do?”It FEELS less judgemental than the harsh tone of “What do you do for a living?” which insinuates that if she doesn’t like the answer I’ll never hear from her again. Which happens to me about 50% of the time.
In this day and age with online dating now versus the way we used to do it most of the normal first date conversations take place during the email exchanges leading up to “phone call worthy” or “meet & greet” so that when we actually go on a first date with someone you’re past all the “what can’t we talk about”stage.On the other hand on VERY RARE occasions I’ve had women just email me on the second email and say “let’s meet for a drink” even though we’ve established no rapport whatsoever.That’s when you really need old fashioned first date conversation skills…lol
@ #37, LOL it was on one occasion and it was a shared appetizer… finger food 🙂 But yeah you’re absolutely right that it probably came across as over-pampering. Even though he thanked me for it next time we met.
I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with giving your date the leftovers, especially if he paid for dinner.
I remember a mid 30’s woman say, ” I want a little girl”, when I first approached her. Never said hi, good morning, etc…nothing else. On our first date, I paid for dinner, and she had to go outside for a smoke, ’cause, “no one buys her dinner”. Although I must say, her kind, are far and few, in my life.
@ Joe, yes! This! He paid and I couldn’t even finish a third of it, so yeah I felt pretty bad… so I offered and he said sure. With a guy friend this would have gone over just fine. But, on a first date… apparently different rules apply. It’s not about the food or the money, it’s about the game 🙂
Goldie #39, LOL…You do seem like a fun and easygoing lady! I live in Latin America and slightly different “rules” may apply…anyway, if you haven ´t read it, I suggest a book called “How to Succeed With Men”, by David Copeland and Ron Louis, it takes you step by step through the dating process…up till long-term commitment! I have read it and refer to it frequently, it has been of great help along with Evan ´s newsletters and tips, in being a single mother doing online dating. Again, best of luck to you.
I find that this “lay everything on the table” advice is very prevalent in religious communities, and even those who are not all that religious can be drawn to this type of thinking because they think it cuts to the chase.
I also find that the women I know who use this method of dating also tend not to date very much… what I mean by that is that it’s a good year if they have two dates, and many might go for a few years without an actual date. Because of this, they get overly excited when they’re asked out, and put a lot of weight on the idea that this guy could potentially be THE ONE, so they need to find out everything they can before proceeding.
I think too that women (well, people in general, but I’m thinking of women in this case) have a fear of heartbreak, and the thought is that if they just ask the right questions early, they can weed out Mr. Wrongs and then find themselves sailing smoothly to matrimony with Mr. Right. And while one should have a weeding out process, there’s still the strong change of breakups and heartache as two people date and then realize that they’re just not the right fit for each other. That’s just life… you can’t take shortcuts here!
When I was dating, I’d estimate that only 25% of my first dates resulted in second dates. And that’s fine… but what if I had put all of my cards on the table on those first dates only to see that most of the guys weren’t going to be interested in a second date, period! Or on a number of occasions, it was ME who wasn’t interested in a second date! Why tell them that I planned to marry, hoped to have two kids, etc., when I don’t even know them or know that I’ll ever see them again, by my choice or theirs? I really see the point of first dates as gateway dates to see if I want a second date. I just have fun on a first date with no expectations, and if a second date results, great. If we get to a third, then maybe the stakes get a bit higher… but still, not yet!
The only time I ever mentioned marriage and children on a first date was when a man asked me where I saw myself in 10 years (which was an odd question to me anyway). I mentioned some career goals and said that I also expected to be married and have a family. Later in the date, he asked if I had ever considered pursuing an advanced degree because I was “so smart,” and more importantly, wasn’t married and didn’t have kids so I wouldn’t have any time constraints. I said that I had considered it, but in the period of time it took to earn said degree, I expected to be married and have children so I would eventually have time constraints and wouldn’t consider the degree my first priority.
In that case, I figured, why lie? But other than that, I would never mention either thing on my own on a first date…
Evan, what a lot of clever, articulate commenters you have here (like attracts like obviously). This has been a great read.
Gem @ 18 – spot on, this would be my ideal blueprint for dealing with this stuff.
Goldie – I loved reading about your experiences and insights. I have also come to pretty much the same realisation as you but you’re a very quick learner. It has taken me years of running the wrong strategies. I hope it pays off for you.
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This is a weird thing that has been happening to me a lot! I am a 50 yr. old woman, fairly attractive, and a professional. Many of the dates I have been on the very first meeting (say first meeting from match, or meet them at happy hour) the guy starts asking me WAY to personal stuff…such as how do I handle myself when I am angry, do I have an issue dating someone with a different religious background, if I am not into church, would I have a problem if he went on Sunday mornings and I stayed home….and guess what, there is no way there is a second date! I feel like I am being qualified on the first meeting! They ask too many questions about my divorce, what happened, what my relationship with my ex is like. Then they text me or call me, and I just don’t respond.
I am not looking for a serious relationship. I am looking to date and the serious relationship will happen when one man makes me not want to date other men. And I am sure not going to figure that out on the first meeting, or even first few dates. After 20 years not in the dating world, I think the men have become women, and in my case, I am more like the men! Give it a rest already and just have some fun….like ask me what my favorite book or movie is, don’t be so darn eager to set the hooks!
Great advice for the first date as well as through out the relationship and especially if you trying to learn <a href=”http://howtogetyourgirlfriendbacktoday.com”>how to get your girlfriend back</a>.
Goldie – I really related to your dating stories (pre: reading Evans Book!)….in addition to the other advice here can I also recommend another good book which helped me ALOT (and I’m pretty sure Evan has recommended on occasion)…its ‘Getting To I Do’ by Patricia Allen. Has a lot of useful information about male / females energy…before this I often got into that trap of trying to be a fun “one-of-theboys” type dates and it wasnt really working.
Evan, I agree with your blog on what is ‘kosher’ to talk about on a first date. My philosophy (and what I tell my friends/clients), is to not talk about sex, politics, or religion on a first date – it brings a level of seriousness to the date, when it should just be about having fun and getting to know each other. Sure, you can be opinionated about the world, but that’s different from having an aggressive standpoint on something, which can become a turn-off for your date…
I think that you should lay everything out on the table on the first date because if this turns into something serious and something was left out on the first date then its going to come in the light eventually. People should mention there children, previous marriages, Goals, etc. Therefore if there was something that was mentioned on the date that turned you off then you can make a decision on whether or not you wanted to continue seeing this person.
I had a “meet & greet”/first date last night with a woman from POF and after a bit of small talk including her horrible online dating experiences(she’s been online 4 months !!!)she launches into her “last relationship” that lasted 3-4 months and ended 2 weeks ago.(I first emailed her about 4 weeks ago btw).Sparing absolutely no details sexual and all telling how “great” the sex was,where they’d “do it”,where he wouldn’t wanna “do it”…..yadda yadda yadda and how she ended it because he wasn’t calling her everyday,not returning texts promptly and basically keeping her at arms length for whenever it was convenient for him.To her defense this is all coming from a 48 yr.old woman who is a solid “8” looks wise,separated,getting divorced from a 25 yr marriage and has no recent dating experience.Maybe she was just so “comfortable” with me she thought she could say anything?
Obviously no one wants to hear sexual details of anyone’s past relationships let alone on a first date/meeting.I’m sure I don’t have to tell this to anyone on this blog but for future readers…………..
What I find so intreesintg is you could never find this anywhere else.
Well, wish I had read this article before going on my first date. I met a really great guy, great potential and we had a lot of shared interests. However, I was utilizing the teachings that a renowned relationship expert mentioned that Evan highlights in this article, and it destroyed all levels of curiosity and desire on the man’s part.
It’s so true though; this is off topic a bit, but our education system really needs to invest more in truly developing critical thinkers. (a little projection here can’t hurt :P)
This made me laugh. I can’t imagine telling a man that I want to get married on a first date.
Did have a date though who on the second date bought me a Teddy Bear with “I love you” on it. It frightened me to death and I legged it!
Guys need to heed this advice too. I’ve been on six first dates in the last month and a half. Every time I’ve been grilled about my son’s father: Does he live close by, why did we split, etc. I’ve been asked about relationships: length, cause of break-up, etc. I’ve been asked about my childhood: how was it, what was your parents relationship to each other, etc. All of these guys ask me all of these things on the FIRST date! It’s not that I’m not open to share and I do have a healthy ability to be candid and emotionally open, but I feel like I’m on an interview when all I’m trying to do is see if we have some chemistry and have fun together.
Today I went on a date with a guy I found very attractive, smart, and who likes doing the same activities as me. I was more excited about meeting him than the others and we had a really great hike (in the rain – which was fabulous). Toward the end of the walk, he started asking me about my thoughts on having kids, what relationships I’ve had, how long, how they ended; that he is very serious about meeting someone and having little ones – whether adopted or fostered (I’ll be 45 my son is a teen, he’s 49 and “fixed”). Maybe I would be interested in adopting or fostering – but my mind isn’t even there yet. I’m so thrown off by these questions on a first date that though I find the guy attractive, I’m not sure I want to go out with him again. the first couple of dates should be fun, in my opinion. If it goes further, then there’s time for such intimate questions.
I keep reading all of these posts about how women sabotage getting a second date by doing this, but my experience is that men are equally as guilty.
Here. Here. Men do this to me. I hate these kinds of dates. It’s like they think we’re going to be together or something so they try to find out all kinds of things. I honestly like hanging out first. A recent one bitterly tried to find out if I was a woman ready to hitch and get settled. I guess I like fun. There are other reasons why men don’t stick around for me (haha)…but I am not the interrogation dater. I went on a first date with this guy today the day after a 3 hour phone conversation that wasn’t too serious. He made jokes about “our interview” (date we had planned), it actually freaked me out, but the conversation was fun so I blew it off. On our date I asked if he had kids and I also really wanted to know if he wanted them. I sneakily dropped this in the conversation: when I have kids….it fit right in with what we were talking about. I saw a change in his eyes but he didn’t say anything. I let it go because I want to spend time with him and the truth shall reveal itself….
My take on this (and please correct me if I’m wrong, Evan), is that it’s about ATTRACTION and pressure (or, lack thereof). We all pretend that we’re attracted to our list of things we want, but how often have you met the person with the good job who’s kind and interested and respectful and wants the same things etc, but we’re completely bored. Then we meet someone with none of the above (but who is maybe funny and cheeky and cool) and we can’t stop thinking about them. The difference is the first person did nothing to create attraction, whereas the second one did.
Talking about marriage and a family on the first date is just not attractive (to most people). Even if it’s want you want. It’s like a business meeting/contract negotiation, and that’s the opposite of what a date should be. Being fun and funny and easygoing is mostly attractive (I would imagine to most people).
Also, I would imagine talking like this creates a lot of pressure for the guy. It would be like a guy talking about some kinky sex move they like on the first date..you may consider it once you like them and trust them and have built rapport, but straight off the bat it would likely freak you out. It’s probably the same for the guys hearing about kids and marriage in the first hour of meeting someone!
Make sure that what you say on a first date makes a positive impact on the person sitting opposite you and doesn’t throw on the brakes. Let’s face it, that’s the last thing both you love birds want. The following pointers are good tips for maintaining a fun, relaxed and enjoyable conversation on your date — she’ll feel relaxed and you’ll show her the best version of you, it’s win-win. And, don’t forget, you can always alter these suggestions to suit your circumstances.
With this thoughts in mind, now it’s time to think about specific first date questions.
Try these:
1. Who has been the biggest influence in your life?
2. What kinds of things really make you laugh?
3. What’s your favorite place in the entire world?
4. Who is your best friend? What do you like about him/her?
5. Favorite movie of all time? Why so?
6. What’s your biggest goal in life right now?
7. What is your favorite way to spend a Saturday?
8. Do you have any pet peeves?
9. What was your family like growing up?
10. What were you like as a kid?
11. What should I know about you that I’d never think to ask about?
12. Did you–or do you–have a nickname? What’s the story behind it?
13. Who was your favorite schoolteacher or college professor? Why?
14. Have you figured out your calling in life? What is it?