What’s Attractive IN Men is What’s Attractive TO Men
- Dating, What Men Want
I know it’s happened to you before.
You had a relationship that was next-to-perfect.
Your amazing boyfriend possessed almost everything on your wishlist.
He was attractive, he was smart, he was successful.
He was thoughtful, he was fun, he was great in bed.
He was interesting, he was sensitive, he was kind.
Then why did the relationship fall apart? Why couldn’t you make it work with him?
My client, Jennifer, is a smart, successful and sexy woman in her mid-50’s. She’s coming off of a roller-coaster dating experience that has left her confused and heartbroken. I’m sure you can relate.
After joining my Inner Circle, Jennifer, was excited to have attracted a different kind of guy. She was done with the slick, wealthy, charmers who’d loved her and left her before. Her new boyfriend had all the signs of being a keeper.
He took down his profile and offered to be exclusive.
He called her consistently to make plans.
He emailed and texted multiple times a day.
He introduced her to his friends and met her family.
If you let your disappointments shade your view of relationships, you may be inadvertently sabotaging yourself.
These are the hallmarks of an interested man. Except you already know that I wouldn’t be telling you this story if it had a happy ending.
Out of nowhere, this guy went POOF, into the night. He did a complete 180 about his willingness to be part of a couple, and didn’t bother to justify it with an explanation.
What is there to learn from this scenario?
First of all, Jennifer can take heart in that she is not at all responsible for this man’s sudden departure. As a woman who read Why He Disappeared, did the Inner Circle, AND took my Romance Course, she handled herself PERFECTLY.
Your takeaway from this blog post is to not let this man’s sudden departure change ANYTHING about how you date.
Because what’s attractive in men is also what’s attractive TO men. And if you let your disappointments shade your view of relationships, you may be inadvertently sabotaging yourself.
Let’s start by looking at what’s attractive IN men:
Independent — He’s got a life outside of you. He’s passionate about his work, he’s successful at it, and he’s cultivated interests and friendships that predate you. He makes you a priority, but doesn’t drop his entire existence because you came into the picture. You respect his need for balance and the attention he gives to family and friends. Most importantly you love that, despite his interests, the right guy ALWAYS makes time for you.
Emotionally Intelligent — He’s been in relationships before. He’s loved. He’s lost. He has a serious ex-girlfriend or wife in his past about whom he speaks highly. He has a few exes who fare less well. But he knows that these women have nothing to do with you. You are a unique individual with her own complex set of experiences and needs. And no matter whether his last relationship dumped him, cheated on him, or took half his money, he doesn’t hold any of it against YOU.
Confident — He knows how to treat a woman. He’s generous with the tab. He’s charismatic when he tells a story. He doesn’t spend any time agonizing as to whether he’s “doing okay” on the date, or wondering “where this is going” or “if you’re seeing anybody else”. He doesn’t need to pressure you into a relationship. He knows that he’s good enough and trusts that you’re going to respond to him.
We can go on, of course, but this is a great place to start: independent, emotionally intelligent, confident.
So if what is attractive IN men is also what’s attractive TO men, how can you be at your most attractive to the men you desire?
Apply the same lessons that men should apply and you’re on the right track.
If you’re an independent woman, don’t drop everything for a charismatic stranger. Don’t cancel plans with your other friends. Don’t instantly stop dating other guys on Match.com. Don’t leave Friday night open in hopes that he may contact you. By continuing to live your life, you become more attractive, and a little less accessible, which means a man has to work a bit harder to win you over. This is a good thing.
(By the way, there is a fine line between “continuing to live your life” and “being so busy that a guy can’t book a date with you until July”. My point is that you shouldn’t emotionally “drop everything” until it’s very clear that a man has earned boyfriend status. It’s easy to do this the second you get excited about a guy. Don’t.)
There is a fine line between “continuing to live your life” and “being so busy that a guy can’t book a date with you until July”.
If you’re committed to being emotionally intelligent about relationships, you know that the next guy has nothing to do with the last guy. You don’t go into a date looking for signs that there’s something wrong with him. You don’t try to figure out your future after 3 dates. You know that dating is a process that has to be honored organically, and that you’re going to fare much better when you learn to make each night the most fun it can be. Because that’s what men respond to on a date: fun.
And if you’re truly confident in yourself, you will be amazed at how men respond to you. By embracing your feminine energy, you know that YOU are the gatekeeper to great dates and that YOU can bring out the best in every single man. Which means you’ll never have to wonder where you stand; in fact, your inner confidence will radiate that it’s up to YOU to decide if HE gets to see you again. What an amazing paradigm shift, especially if you’re a woman who sometimes gets nervous around the most impressive men.
It’s easy to find fault with men who pull a 6-week Houdini act, like Jennifer’s “boyfriend”, but the truth is, Jennifer just saved herself a TON of time. Imagine if he’d pulled this stuff after 6 months, or 2 years. THIS is his way of handling conflicts: disappearing.
Well, good riddance, buddy! Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out!
Your strongest move after such an incident is to be like the attractive man: independent, emotionally, intelligent, and confident.
Keep living your life.
Get RIGHT back on your dating site.
Don’t get too excited at each promising prospect.
Don’t worry about whether each guy has a future. That’s up to YOU.
And have FUN, because if you have fun, HE’LL have fun.
And if HE has fun, he’s always going to come back for more.
(Unless he’s a disappearing jerk, in which case you don’t want him anyway. :-))
Dancing Faun says
Good takeaway: Rejection isn’t personal if you are conducting yourself with integrity.
Not sure what “feminine energy” means, though. Back in the ’90s I took a bunch of New Age workshops that were always using that phrase and I still don’t know what it means. I’m a dancer and we talk about energy ALL the time. But we don’t “genderize” it. Mostly because a lot of dancers are gay and so the understanding of gender and roles in that world is more fluid. We cast dancers for their personal energy, which is usually some unique combination of strong/soft, passive/aggressive, introspective/outgoing, etc. We’re more interested in the interplay of energies within a person, between people, and among those in a group. It’s fascinating, really. What dancing (and dating?) is all about.
Evan Marc Katz says
Feminine energy is receptive. Masculine energy is aggressive. Men do. Women receive. This is not to say that women can’t “do” but rather that this is typically “masculine” energy, and if you want to be with a masculine guy, he’s going to be more attracted to your feminine side. Which is why it doesn’t matter all that much to him that you went to Yale, speak four languages, and finished a marathon in 3 1/2 hours. It’s more important to him that you laugh at his jokes, support his dreams, and snuggle with him in bed.
Lisa says
I like this article but I need to quibble with you on this whole masculine/feminine energy thing. Just the mention of my job title alone trial attorney, partner at a law firm screams masculine! After reading your blog and by the way I love it and many others I have come to the conclusion that I have three choices I either need to accept that I will always be single, distinctly change my personality or get really good at pretending to be someone I am not. See women in my age range the 30s we were raised to love ourselves to embrace who we are and not conform. To be self sufficient and get educated to not need men. I grew up believing that if I was just myself a man would love me for me. But I am aggressive. I am assertive. I am proud of my education of my accomplishments and no I don’t need a man I would like one though. I am caring I volunteer taking care of wounded soldiers every weekend. I love to cuddle I dress very feminine and take care of my physical appearance. But I want a man who does care about my accomplishments and who is attracted to me because of them not because I giggle at his jokes. Someome who is proud to be with me because of my accomplishments not someone that prefers that I downplay them. And if I stood back and pretended to be some shrinking violet letting him do everything that would be exactly what it would be pretending. It’s like you are saying women like me should bait and switch these guys? And to be truly honest if you are telling me this is what I have to do then I shall remain single. What advice do you have for us ladies?
Evan Marc Katz says
” I have come to the conclusion that I have three choices I either need to accept that I will always be single, distinctly change my personality or get really good at pretending to be someone I am not.”
Nope. You have to do one thing different: choose different men…easygoing, flexible, less opinionated, more “beta” males. Do that and your problem is solved. No need to change your personality at all.
Trenia says
You had me up until “YOU can bring out the best in every man”. I can see if two people have been in a relationship for a while, but bringing out the best in a man you just met, a total stranger? That sounds like a very heavy burden to lift. The assumption is always that it is the woman’s job to bring something out of a man so that he’ll want more and stick around, instead of him showing up and bringing his best simply because he wants to bring his best.
This is also difficult because women aren’t men, and as much as I think that a man’s ability to compartmentalize and keep his feelings in check are great, many women aren’t able to do this, no matter how hard they try, and they may end up trying to be someone they are not. Women get excited about the new guy, especially when they’ve been in a dating desert for a while, and it can be hard to hold back. Sometimes this is detrimental and sometimes it’s not. There are lots of women who are happily married who behaved the very same way when they met their husbands.
I don’t know if anyone read Sara Eckel’s New York Time’s article about Modern Love, but it speaks to some of these issues. Dating can be tough.
Angel says
I had never heard of this column. I just read the article you are talking about. Thank you so much for mentioning it.
Sherell says
Also, Six weeks is such a short length of time. I tell my girlfriends they have a 90 day heart back guarantee! Anything under 90 days, you should be able to shake off. Define your rhythm for the relationship!
Dancing Faun says
EMK: I thought that was what you were gonna say, based on my experience in the New Age workshops mentioned above, where we had to do things like list “feminine” qualities and “masculine” qualities, John Gray style.
With all due respect, I still don’t buy it. Women can be aggressive and men can be receptive and both are all the time. And some guys do like women because they went to Yale, speak languages, and run marathons (why are these things “masculine” anyway?). And doing those things doesn’t preclude laughing at jokes, supporting dreams, and snuggling (why are these things “feminine”?).
Conversely, even though I’m a woman, I wouldn’t put going to Yale, speaking languages, and marathoning over laughing, supporting, snuggling either. I mean, those first things are someone else’s accomplishments (nothing really to do with me, no matter what our relationship is), and the other things are bonding activities we do together (necessary, no matter what our respective accomplishments are).
Or are you suggesting that women have to do all of the relationship work and the guy just has to show up with a resume and no ill intentions? (Bustin’ your chops here, I know. 🙂 )
Evan Marc Katz says
Faun,
You don’t have to “buy” it. It’s an observation, one that’s based in truth, not fantasy. Saying that a woman has masculine energy or that a man has feminine energy doesn’t negate their gender. You clearly have lots of masculine energy. I have lots of feminine energy, which is why I like to discuss things and connect and be understood. That said, as a MAN, I much PREFER a woman who is more feminine. It’s not that the Yale grad CAN’T laugh at my jokes and take care of me, it’s that she’s more likely going to be pursuing her second PhD and helping to launch a startup than to be available to be my feminine energy partner. I have great respect, admiration and attraction for those women. I just decided that I didn’t want to marry her. Because she’s just like me. And I want – and many masculine achieving men want – a softer, less driven partner who takes care of them.
Once again, it’s not that men are INCAPABLE of being listeners and nurturers, but your basic Wall Street guy or lumberjack is probably not that concerned about your day and doesn’t want to talk about his feelings. And your female hedge fund manager who’s working 70 hours a week isn’t available enough – timewise or emotionwise – to be the soft, supportive, playful, nurturer that many men desire.
You still disagree?
rox says
I always see your point, Evan and usually, I agree with you.
yulia says
Evan,
Sounds like you validate your masculinity through choosing VERY feminine partner. You did not feel like a MAN ENOUGH with those Yale graduates? Is this coming from a place of insecurity?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Yulia. Ha! My wife graduated magna cum laude. She knows Shakespeare. She comes from a military family in San Diego. She worked for 17 years as the VP of a boutique international event planning company.
What makes her feminine is that she’s not spending her time trying to slay dragons, cure cancer, run triathlons, or make partner. She says yes to everything. She’s always got a smile on her face. She thinks I’m smart and funny and noble. She trusts me and allows me to make decisions. She doesn’t criticize me for petty reasons or try to change me. She puts me and our family first.
That’s why I married her.
Find me a Yale graduate and law firm partner who has the time and temperament to be that way and I’d have married her. I’ve certainly never met her.
Sharon says
Nix masculine or feminine as terminology. Receptive energy and Assertive energy. By coding one as masculine and the other feminine is insinuates an assertive women is butch or a receptive man is a pussy. No reason to use loaded terms
I do see evidence of this men preferring receptive women. When I consider the absence of women in fortune 500, politics, literature, art, technology and science I wonder if its because their busy nurturing at home.
lame!
Can we start importing people from Scandanavian countries that keep scoring off the charts for egalitarianism to start teaching the rest of the world how not to suck?
Dave says
Sharon,
your argument is valid, however, I’ve found the best strategy when hearing something new, as rediculous as it may sound try to take something away from it instead of arguing with the messenger. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but Evan is offering insights that is rubbing you the wrong way because like it or not he’s right.
I sometimes feel that we argue because we have been hurt and no one wants to admit we need to change. I’m in a constant state of change, because I’m human and I want to be what my girlfriend needs in a man, that is if I’m ever going to make it to the altar. :). We’re all in this together.
helene says
Can I ask, what exactly does being “nurturing ” mean? It seems to come up a lot in these threads about “what men are looking for” (although not specifically in this thread, so far…
To me, it sound like “motherly” which does not strike me as a very erotic quaity – I don’t really want to be a man’s mother, nor would i want a man who expected me to mother him. Is that what it means, or is it something else?
SparklingEmerald says
Helene @ 8 – Really ? You don’t know the meaning of the word “nurturing” ? I think you do, but you for some reason you object to the notion of having to be that to a man.
Yes, nurture is what mothers do. Protect and provide is what fathers do. Nurture is also what friends do for each other, what certain types of professionals in their field do in their work (nurses, teachers, etc) and what pet owners do for their pets. Protecting and providing is what fathers do, it’s also what some in some professions do (fireman, policeman) .
I think it’s so silly when people get so hung up on coming off as “mommy” or “daddy”. Parents are human, who were once a couple before they became mom and dad. They didn’t just instantly learn the nurturing and protective skills they applied to their children the minute they became Mom & Dad. They learned those skills in childhood, brought them to their relationship, and pass them on to their offspring. (at least ideally)
Women shouldn’t worry about coming off as a “mother” if they make a nice hot meal for their man, or give him a back rub after a hard day at work. Don’t get so hung up that a man is trying to be your “daddy” if he insists on you wearing your bike helmet, or would prefer it you drive 2 blocks to the corner drug store after dark, rather than walk.
Early childhood experiences shape our mating choices. Better parenting in childhood gives one an edge in relationship during adulthood. So what if there is some over lap between our parental relationships and our spousal relationships ? Our parents were human, we’re human, there’s bound to be similarities. The intimacy is what set those relationships apart.
Erika says
As a female… What it really comes down to is that most men are by far more masculine energy than how women can tend to be both and play both sides and do so very successfully. I agree with the ladies that why do we have to play up more of the receptive when we also have that aggressive life streak where we go after successful goals and do it just as well?? Why do we have to minimize those strengths in us for the sake of what a man needs…. It sucks… but HONESTLY LADIES EVAN IS RIGHT. I know from experience. I have strong masculine personality traits, with my last relationship, I played that up big time and we bucked heads like no other, I appealed to his instinct to COMPETE instead of PROTECT. In my current relationship, I took a seperate approach and am playing up my feminine energies, receptive, nurturing… and my man is more receptive to my needs and is very protective… because I LET him take the LEAD.
Perhaps the reality of it sucks.. but Evan is on to something… and I see it first hand in my experiences.
P.S. Away from all this, I think personally, that a couple needs to have the energy one lacks. If one is more direct, one needs to be more receptive. If one is more impatient, one should tend to be more patient.. if one is more emotional, one needs to be a little more objective.. etc. Man or Woman, in the end, we need to be with someone who compliments our strengths while understanding our weaker traits.
Period.
Erika says
Helene – to me nurturing means being thoughtful, understanding and trusting in your man and who he is. When he is feeling low, being encouraging, when he had a promotion, being his biggest supporter… Nurture meaning to take care of your man – intellectually, emotionally, physically, and soulfully. A mother does this to get him ready FOR the world, while a woman does this to take care of him FROM the world and weather it together. 🙂
Karmic Equation says
“Nurture meaning to take care of your man — intellectually, emotionally, physically, and soulfully. A mother does this to get him ready FOR the world, while a woman does this to take care of him FROM the world…”
Well, well said, Erika.
Kathy says
Evan, I just want to know WHY DO men handle conflicts by disappearing? And can an individual man who has been handling conflict this way for many years change?
The guy who just disappeared on me didn’t like something I said and just poof! he was gone He disappeared once before over hardly anything and I contacted him and he was back “in ” like flynn. But I am not sure he would have contacted me.
This time I am NOT contacting him and who knows, the relationship may be permanently over because he won’t make the first move! WHY do they do this? Are people who do this incapable of handling conflict? I have seen him do this in other areas of his life.
Greg says
@Kathy 14
It doesn”t take an expert to answer this question. Mature men do NOT handle conflicts by disappearing. Obviously this guy is an immature loser. You don’t need him. He can change, but only if he wants to. Rather than wait for him to change you should find someone else.
Dancing Faun says
Sharon@9: hahahahaha!!! Exactly!!!
EMK@8: Do you actually know any Yale graduates? Because I know lots. You are not describing them at all. Schools don’t screen for “aggression” when accepting students, and you don’t have to be “masculine” to graduate from a good school and get a good job. This is some outdated thinking there.
And if you saw me, that last thing you’d be thinking was masculine energy, I guarantee it. Ha!!! I’m just smart and articulate, that’s all. If anyone thinks that’s “masculine”–well, who would want to be “feminine”?
Evan Marc Katz says
And because I can’t resist:
Dancing Faun said: I’m just smart and articulate, that’s all. If anyone thinks that’s “masculine”—well, who would want to be “feminine”?
No, you’re a pain in the ass who likes to make other people wrong. That’s why you’re not only masculine – but you’re just like me. And I don’t want to marry myself. It’s too much work.
Is this making sense yet? You have masculine energy. Men who are like you will be attracted to you but will fight with you because they’re just as smart and egocentric. That’s why a better fit for you is an easygoing guy, just like I chose an easygoing wife. If you can’t see the merits in finding a partner who is easygoing and would rather “get along” than “be right”, I’m not sure what to tell you.
I understand you. You’re a liberal elitist know-it-all, just like me. That’s why people like us are lucky if anyone puts up with us. Humility is the key to long-term partnership. I’m not seeing any evidence in your posts.
Iyna says
Omg, I just had an “aha moment”! Wow.
Dancing Faun says
Ooo! Didn’t realize there was a challenge at the end of your post to me, EMK. So I will respond in a second post! And here it is!
Yes, strongly disagree, still.
You write “Saying that a woman has masculine energy or that a man has feminine energy doesn’t negate their gender” and that you yourself have a lot of feminine energy. You think that I have a lot of masculine energy (because I am not “receptive”…to you). But then you say that as a man (your gender) you want a woman (her gender) who is feminine, which means taking care of you. Very confusing. The reasons for the confusion:
1) It isn’t clear what you mean by “energy” if not “gender.” You’re a man (gender) who is feminine (energy). Your wife is a woman (gender) who is also feminine (energy). She laughs at your jokes and takes care of you– actions that don’t seem specific to either gender or energy, however you define these things. So it just seems like a big hodgepodge of undefined, unrelated stuff that translates into masculine energy=bad.
2) Wall Street guys, lumberjacks, female hedge fund managers? Do any of us know so many of these people that this is really who we’re thinking about when we’re imagining a life partner? There is that whole other 99%, after all. But again, what does a person’s job or education have to do with his or her private parts or “energy”? True, if someone has a demanding job they are not going to be around to “nurture” their feminine-energy, biological-male husband. But you know what else is demanding and will take your partner away from you? Caring for a disabled child or an aging parent. Which is what “nurturing” people of both genders also do.
So, still not buying it. What people do for their life’s work has little to do with being “feminine” or “masculine.” People’s personal energy is constantly changing in response to environment and other people. People’s actions are their own personal choice. I may not laugh at your jokes because maybe I don’t find them funny, not because I’m “masculine” and hankering to go chop down a tree.
Dan says
This makes me think of the male version. In the version I experience, I meet smart, strong, successful women. They are super positive, they smile, they are friendly, they are confident, they dress well.
I ask them on a date, they offer to pay their part of the bill, but I always pay. They thank me. I always come up with fun things to do. They are always polite and engaging.
But in the male version, there is no sex. They play coy, never showing that they are affectionate. They always accept dates when they are free, which is rare. They are very busy with their work (or say they are).
After months of this, I just give up. That’s my experience. Maybe it’s something I do wrong and maybe it’s just me, but this is not a male date advice column. I’m just offering the point of view of a successful, friendly, positive guy trying his best.
AS says
@Faun and @Yulia — I’m going to try and explain the energies as I see it. For a battery to be effective, it has to have balanced positive and negative energy. If you imagine that the positive side is represented by a woman — so we will call this feminine energy and the negative side by a man, which we will call masculine energy. Within these two different (but complementary) energies, there are commonly associated traits. So for example, in feminine energy traits we have: loving, caring, nurturing etc and for masculine energy we have logical, practical and challenging. When in a work environment, both men & woman typically display the ‘aggressive’ masculine traits. It works well and serves it purpose. But as a woman when you leave the work place, if you forget to switch into your feminine energy before you go on a date, many men will not find this appealing as you’re energies are not connecting in the way that they should. So going back to the battery analogy, if both a man and woman are trying to connect and they both are using negative energy, the battery is not going to work as the energies conflict, not complement. I hope that makes sense?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Faun – You don’t have to buy it. I’m not looking for your approval. I’m letting you know that this isn’t MY observation – rather, it’s the concept of yin/yang, which has been around, well, let’s just say longer than you have been.
Successful partnerships are, most often, complements, not clones. So however you choose to label masculine/feminine energy, I stand by my words. I’ve been a dating coach who’s worked with thousands of people over the years. You’re just a another woman with an opinion who doesn’t like what I have to say. Just because you FEEL a certain way doesn’t make you right – not in the light of considerable empirical evidence about compatibility.
Oh, and by the way, what does a career have to do with masculine/feminine energy? Seriously? You don’t think a cop and a kindergarten teacher have different demeanors? You don’t think there are more male cops and female kindergarten teachers? It seems that the more you don’t want this to be true, the further you veer from making an effective point.
Since this is my blog, let’s agree to disagree. Life is too short to fight battles out in the open. You go back to Jezebel and I’ll keep providing guidance to the women who are receptive to what I have to say. Best of luck.
Tamar says
I’m gonna agree 100% with Evan. Feminism has confused gender roles when it comes to relationships. We are animals and we are still wired and designed to behave the way Evan describes. Take a look at your vagina, ladies. It’s a big hint to the yin-yang concept. We are designed to receive. Embrace this fact. Embrace this power. Embrace your femininity. It’s ok…and in your favor.
Helen says
I agree with Dancing Faun and Sharon.
There are too many false dichotomies being drawn here – not so much in Evan’s original post as in the comments that follow. It’s not as though graduating from Yale and curing cancer or making partner means that one is incapable of smiling, laughing at jokes, etc., whether you are male OR female. I’ve met far too many delightful Harvard, Yale, and Princeton graduates who are at the top of their fields to buy that kind of false depiction.
I am one of those women working to cure cancer (although “cure” is an imprecise term; let’s say cancer prevention and control). It is BECAUSE I do work that I love and that matters deeply to me that I smile, am happy, and bring sparkle into my marriage and make my husband happy as well. It is such a false dichotomy to say that a high-powered career woman is incapable of making her man happy in the way he wants. Men want happy women who appreciate their company. Women who love their work are the best partners. That work could be anything, from “curing” cancer to being a full-time mom to being a dancer.
If someone hates his/her work and is constantly stressed out by it, then that is a different matter. Then it makes sense that such a person may not be pleasant to spend time with. But being successful in one’s career isn’t synonymous with hating and being stressed out by it – another false dichotomy. If anything, it’s the opposite. And it doesn’t have to do with rank. Secretaries can be just as resentful and hating of their jobs (or more) than their bosses.
We women must reach for the things that make us happy. That is all. Happiness is not only attractive, it is good for the soul.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Helen – If you’re a scientist, then you can appreciate the fact that there is, at the very least, a correlation between being brilliant and driven and being less physically and emotionally available. You make it sound like I’m just making all this up to suit my own purposes. Do you disagree with my observations in Why He Disappeared?
A very good looking man is more likely to be a narcissist.
A traditionally masculine man is more likely to be emotionally inaccessible.
A rich, successful man is more likely to be a workaholic.
An intelligent, educated man is more likely to be opinionated and arrogant.
A creative, sensitive man is more likely to be intense or moody.
You suggest that someone pursuing her passion is happy – and happy women make great wives. Fair enough. I’ll give you this in return.
If it makes you happy to work 60 hours/week and train for a triathlon in your spare time, you may be an impressive person, but you’re not a great wife. Making a man feel like he’s your top priority is far more important to HIS satisfaction in the relationship. If you sincerely consider your work, your friends, your family, your mountain biking, your yoga, your SCUBA diving, your dog, and your travel more important, then he’ll find a woman who makes him feel better – no matter how amazing you are and no matter how happy you are.
I’m not going to debate that a happy, fulfilled woman is a better life partner, but if your temperament is that of someone who likes to argue and someone who is driven to career success, it’s harder to be a great partner. I suspect that most men would concur.
ann says
very good point Evan! thank you for all you do 🙂
Sabrina says
AGREE AGREE AGREE!!
v says
Re : ‘not a great wife’ comment above!! Why can’t he look after himself. Why is the woman able to do it all, work, raise kids, enjoy her career, care for her relationship and be responsible for her own mental health and wellbeing without expecting to rely on a babysitter (husband), this feminist talk is bs. Evolve ppl (men) good god!!
Kristine says
This gender/energy argument is fascinating, but I’d just like to comment on another aspect of this very revealing post:
“Out of nowhere, this guy went POOF…Jennifer…read Why He Disappeared, did the Inner Circle, AND took my Romance Course, she handled herself PERFECTLY.”
So is the lesson here that spending money on all your products and services does not yield improved results? That’s my take-home.
Signed,
Women With “Masculine” Energy Who Cares About Being Right – You Know, Like Scientists, Engineers, and Heart Surgeons, Who For Some Lame-Ass Reason Think that Being Right Is Somehow Important and Therefore if Female Will Never Find Love
Evan Marc Katz says
@Kristine – I normally wouldn’t let your comment through, because it very clearly breaks the rules of the blog, which state that you’re supposed to comment on the original post, not insult your host, but I shared it because I thought it was quite revealing – not about me, but about you.
You’re the kind of person who takes pride in being right instead of getting along.
You’re the kind of person who conflates completely unrelated events (my coaching with a man leaving) as if it’s some sort of black mark on me.
You’re the kind of person who makes an illogical argument – either that scientists who are “right” in the lab should somehow be “right” in relationships…or, if I misread you, that if I said that you have masculine energy, you’ll never find love. Neither of these is true.
Essentially, you’re bristling because I pointed out that the very thing that makes you successful at work does not necessarily make you successful in love (This same holds true for men, by the way) – and you responded to me with emotion, scorn and invective.
Sorry if I touched a raw nerve, but I think you should be above such illogical arguments and petty insults. If you don’t like my blog, don’t read it. Really, I’ll be fine.
LL says
Evan,
Bravo !
Diana says
To Helen #21, I agree, and I also agree with some of Faun’s comments. It’s very possible for a woman (or a man) to have a passionate, self-satisfying career and personal life, while also creating a wonderful and loving relationship with their partner. It just takes the right person for them. I believe there has to be a balance between the two, and that both parts are essential. They are linked together: a happy and fulfilled person makes a better partner; and a happy and fulfilled couple creates better individuals.
Jadafisk says
So… what if someone doesn’t want to bring an 80/20 ratio of masculine to feminine energy into her life and sees more of a balance between the two as an ideal thing to maintain as an individual and as a couple? Are the guidelines completely different? Are there any at all? How do you find and keep a man with less masculine energy than generally expected?
Also, why would a person look for qualities that, when it comes down to it, they don’t value enough to cultivate in themselves? If you really care about success, why wouldn’t you go out and get it instead of trying to parasite off of someone else’s? If you really care about nurturing, why wouldn’t YOU try to be more nurturing? I’m a little confused by this entire phenomenon.
Helen says
Evan 22: With all due respect, yes, I do disagree with the points you raise. And if I may, I would gently urge you not to see the world in such absolutes, nor to be so quick to categorize people: that if they are A, then they must also be B and do C.
You asked me specifically if I disagree with:
A very good looking man is more likely to be a narcissist.
A traditionally masculine man is more likely to be emotionally inaccessible.
A rich, successful man is more likely to be a workaholic.
An intelligent, educated man is more likely to be opinionated and arrogant.
A creative, sensitive man is more likely to be intense or moody.
The vast majority of good-looking men I know are not narcissists. Nor are they more confident in demeanor than less handsome men; they are by and large shy and gentle. Of the narcissists I know, some are good-looking and others are not. There is not an obvious trend in one direction.
I do not know what you mean by traditionally masculine man. My definition may not be the same as others’: I consider a man masculine if he doesn’t complain too much, and makes me feel special even when he knows I’m married and that nothing will happen. Are they “emotionally inaccessible”? I wouldn’t say so, but haven’t the faintest idea. A man expressing emotions is not something that has ever been important to me.
“Rich, successful, intelligent, educated men”: can we agree that Nobel laureates would fit these categories? I’ve learned from 3 Nobel laureates and have worked with a 4th for the last 2 years. Without exception, they have been friendly, down-to-earth, kind, and helpful. They’re most certainly not inaccessible or arrogant. Especially my current colleague: one of the most thoughtful human beings I’ve known. In times when I’ve wondered how to act in particular situations, I’ve tried to follow what he would do. It has always led to a good outcome. Being successful – even top of the world successful – does not mean that you are a less decent human being.
“Creative, sensitive men”: can we count musicians and writers among these? Only one I know is intense and moody. The rest are just regular decent guys. If anything, when they find out what I do, they act all impressed and kow-towing, whereas I in turn am impressed by what they do!
I don’t know, Evan. People are just people. The vast, vast majority of guys I know are decent, regardless of their success or income or field.
Jeremy says
No idea how old this comment is, but I found it interesting, both for what it captures and what it misses. What it captures: The notion that just because a person is “A” doesn’t necessarily mean he is also “B” just because we tend to associate A and B in our minds.
What it misses: That whether or not they are B is more important in relationships than whether they are A. For example, regardless of whether a person is good looking, it is more important whether he is a narcissist. Whether or not she is successful, it is more important whether she is a workoholic. And her being a workoholic will not negatively influence how her friends and colleagues see her, but will certainly influence how her spouse sees her. I would definitely not want to be married to a Nobel Prize winner – or an Olympic athelete, or any other person whose pursuits require singular dedication that saps their availability to that extent…..regardless of whether or not their work colleagues and friends find them to be good people, or find their behavior admirable.
Ruby says
I am confused by the direction this threads has gone in. For me, the lesson here is that you can do everything right, and the guy can still turn out to be a douchecanoe. I think the whole point of date-coaching, however, is that in order to find love, you must persevere. So all these issues of masculine/feminine energy seem extraneous to me. Personality differences aren’t really masculine or feminine; certainly it wasn’t Jennifer’s being too masculine that caused her relationship to end; it was her boyfriend turning out to be a jerk.
Saint Stephen says
@Jadafisk and other ladies
What is so confusing about the masculine and feminine energy? Is simple. positive and negative. stamen and pistil. why is it so hard to fathom? i think you ladies deliberately choose to turn a blind eye to what Evan is saying even though you know is the truth.
Men aren’t attracted to women for exactly the same qualities that made them got attracted to us. If you are a highly successful Man it potential enhances your dating pool, while it does the exact opposite for a woman. and reason been that is more easier for women to feast on a man’s money than the other way round.
How many highly successful women do you know who bought a man a ring or necklace of $1 million dollar? i’m guessing the answer would be non. is more paramount to a Man that you are nurturing and supportive- rather than slaying dragons.
Helen Said: (#21)
Women who love their work are the best partners.
Going by your logic- why aren’t celebrity Marriages working out?
Jennifer Lopez is a successful singer and actress who just got divorced for the fourth time. would you presume she didn’t love her work? Evan is saying that women like her would be more prone to desiring more success than making a man happy, which is why marriages like hers and other career bound women would be more likely to fail.
Jadafisk Said (#26)
Also, why would a person look for qualities that, when it comes down to it, they don’t value enough to cultivate in themselves? If you really care about success, why wouldn’t you go out and get it instead of trying to parasite off of someone else’s? If you really care about nurturing, why wouldn’t YOU try to be more nurturing? I’m a little confused by this entire phenomenon.
Evan Marc Katz Said (#6)
I have great respect, admiration and attraction for those women. I just decided that I didn’t want to marry her. Because she’s just like me. And I want — and many masculine achieving men want — a softer, less driven partner who takes care of them.
Evan Mark Katz Said (#19)
Successful partnerships are, most often, complements, not clones.
Evan Marc Katz Said (#20)
but you’re just like me. And I don’t want to marry myself. It’s too much work.
Jadafisk, with all due respect, you mean Evan and other Men should develop feminine traits before they can be deemed worthy to desire females with such traits? And wouldn’t that bounce back to what he is desperately avoiding? Evan said he didn’t want to marry his clone. and is just like you saying females who desire masculine men should develop the masculine traits themselves. your point makes entirely no sense to me.
Evan Marc Katz Said (#2)
It’s more important to him that you laugh at his jokes.
Evan you are so Right and i perfectly concur. That’s one of the ways i know when a chic digs me. she makes me feel like a super comedian. 🙂
Maria says
This article and comment threat is GREAT and have kept me on my toes.
I like how Evan replies back to comments and questions, then, he keeps it REAL. This by far is THE MOST entertaining, interesting dating blog for women from a MAN.
Ladies: You do not have to agree, but Evan is right. I have learned so much about feminine and masculine energy from other dating coaches but EVan broke it DOWN! I hit a AH HA moment. I am a mentally exhausted entrepreneur who is honestly tired to trying to make things happen. So, learning about masculine energy helps me to let walls down and learn to be feminine again……
The issue with you ladies are, you want a relationship but you also want to argue with a MAN about what his observation and opinion is on OTHER MEN. Would you rather listen to a woman? Or do you just want to continue living a lie?
I appreciate male advice. I ABSORB it and use it. I am successfully dating. I make mistakes, but I am not going to argue with a man whom i am coming to for advice just because i dont like the way it sounds.
I am not trying to insult of put anyone down, but some of you ladies really should consider looking at yourselves. I had to. And I am lot more successful with men.
No, I dont have my committment yet, but I have confidence and I am willing to learn. FROM A MAN.
I sure hope this has touched someone’s heart.
Jadafisk says
Saint Stephen – I’m asking where does the desire for a complement come from… I’m also asking about if women who don’t want an extremely masculine hard charging achiever type should follow the same advice as women who do.
Ruby says
EMK said (original post):
By embracing your feminine energy, you know that YOU are the gatekeeper to great dates and that YOU can bring out the best in every single man. Which means you’ll never have to wonder where you stand; in fact, your inner confidence will radiate that it’s up to YOU to decide if HE gets to see you again. What an amazing paradigm shift, especially if you’re a woman who sometimes gets nervous around the most impressive men.
Then he says, a few sentences later: Your strongest move after such an incident is to be like the attractive man: independent, emotionally, intelligent, and confident.
So which is it? Feminine energy while you’ve got the guy, but return to masculine energy if you lose him?
St Stephen wrote:
Evan is saying that women like her would be more prone to desiring more success than making a man happy, which is why marriages like hers and other career bound women would be more likely to fail.
Actually, marriages of older, college-educated women are half as likely to fail as those of younger, non-college-educated women. In fact, over the last 30 years, divorce rates have fallen substantially for the college-educated, while they have risen for lower-income couples without college degrees.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Ruby – as some of my detractors have pointed out, these things aren’t mutually exclusive.
In other words, you can be independent, emotionally intelligent and confident and still extremely feminine. Furthermore, I think we can all agree that feminine energy doesn’t mean “dependent, emotionally foolish and insecure”.
So let’s not make dishonest cases here. I’ve never suggested that dating is a black and white, either/or type arrangement. No man is pure masculine, no woman is pure feminine. We’re all blends. But we’d be well served to be aware of these stereotypes and find a partner who is a good fit for our lives, not merely someone you find attractive. Despite what Helen says, there IS truth to most stereotypes. Are there beautiful women who don’t know they’re beautiful? I suppose. Self-made millionaires who don’t work that hard? Possibly. Hard-driving corporate attorneys who work 2300 hours a year and still make time to decompress and nurture their partners? I guess. But they are the exception, not the rule. My job is to give the rules.
Just because you know of the exception doesn’t negate the fact that I’m speaking from a place of truth and trying to frame dating in a fashion that applies to as many women as possible. If you’re a woman CEO who wants to date a male CEO, you can’t be surprised if he prefers a woman who is a little more available to him on his terms. Oh, and if you insist on disagreeing with me, why don’t you pick up a book by the patron saint of smart, strong, successful women, Maureen Dowd, called “Are Men Necessary”, where she openly muses why she’s single and why her male counterparts are more likely to marry their assistants than their bosses. It’s not because they’re intimidated. It’s because their assistants are more likely to be classically “supportive”, which is a quality that THEY want more than any other.
In fact, I was at a party tonight with a bunch of guys. I brought up this question and the consensus (verifying my theory espoused in Why He Disappeared) was that the top things that men look for in women are fun, attractive, supportive, emotionally generous, likes to try new things, low drama, doesn’t talk his ear off and fundamentally sane. Nowhere does “successful” or “highly educated” or “would argue with an eskimo about the properties of snow” come up. I will once again remind you that you CAN be a VP of business development at an internet start up with a double masters in business and law and still be ALL of the above. It’s just a lot easier for a woman who doesn’t put her career and achievements first to be able to demonstrate this emotionally and physical availability.
Finally, the SAME goes for men. The best husband is probably not Jeffrey Katzenberg, who has been known to have two business breakfasts before 7am. If women are still willing to line up for him because he’s a billionaire, that’s great. Men won’t be lining up for the equivalent woman is all I’m saying. As the guy here, I would think you’d take what I have to say seriously instead of continuing the argument and telling me I’m wrong about what the majority of men want.
Laine says
Why are all the female bloggers against Evan’s advice. It might be to your benefit to take on board what he has to say, because as a man, he knows what men find appealing in women.
As for all the questions about what is female/male energy..surely you jest. Every person has a combination of both of these energies, with usually one that dominates. Some males have more feminine energy, others more masculine. Same with females. Think of the energy these people project…Marilyn Monroe, Michael Jackson, Brad Pitt. This is not gender related at all and in same sex couples, one usually exudes the female energy and the other the male. It is rare thatprojecting same energies will work out as a couple. For instance, a woman with more dominant male energy will attract a man with more female energy. She may not want this dynamic, but it will happen.
Evan writes about this well. But for some reason you seem to be taking it personally. Why would that be?
Saint Stephen says
Jadafisk Said (#31)
I’m asking where does the desire for a complement come from?
The desire comes from wanting to seek out the qualities you know you don’t fully possess, from your spouse- to make you whole. Religious marriage uses the term of “two becoming one” because it was naturally assumed that you were incomplete prior to your spouse coming into your life. and that’s why he/she is called your better half- not your exact half.
Jadafisk Said (#31)
I’m also asking about if women who don’t want an extremely masculine hard charging achiever type should follow the same advice as women who do.
Every man still has an element of masculinity in him. based on that i can say yes, you still need to follow the same advice, but not to the very degree of a woman who needs an extremely masculine guy.
The way i see it, the reason why Evan advises his smart, strong, successful female clients to tone down their personality traits in the dating world is because what makes men successful in their respective careers, gives them a greater chance of success in their dating life- but hampers that of women. and is far more easier to to find women who wants a take charge, successful, traditional masculine men, which is why you seldom find smart, strong, successful men complain about not been able to get married.
@Ruby (#32)
Actually, marriages of older, college-educated women are half as likely to fail as those of younger, non-college-educated women. In fact, over the last 30 years, divorce rates have fallen substantially for the college-educated, while they have risen for lower-income couples without college degrees.
And how exactly did non-college educated people came into this discussion? Evan used his wife to give a paradigm. or are you saying she is non-college educated?
We are talking about the upper average class, as compared to the average class. Evan was emphasizing that assertive career minded women aren’t likely to make to make a good spouse- Helen was saying loving their jobs will make them happy women and best partners.
I broached up celebrities, as they happened to be the first thought that came to mind when talking about women who love their profession/career, evidenced by the crazy hours they put into their work. but fail woefully when it gets down to marriage/relationship.
Ruby says
St Stephen
I’m talking about higher-earning, college-educated, career-oriented women, including EMK’s wife. Being those things doesn’t make a woman a ball-buster. I’m not sure how celebrities factor in to the discussion, since they are a tiny and unique percentage of the population.
Ruby says
EMK #34
I agree, women and men embody both masculine and feminine traits. i get tired of hearing that a women can’t be successful in both career and personal life when i know it simply isn’t the case. I just think the message could be clearer and less laden with gender references: be independent, emotionally intelligent, and confident, but also be receptive to meeting men and available for a relationship. Same goes for men who are looking for relationships.
Jadafisk says
Marriages between entertainment types and regular people often fail as well, because marriage isn’t considered as permanent a state in that subset to begin with and there’s an incredible amount of opportunities re: infidelity when even one party has that much fame, money and attractiveness at the same time. There’s probably a causative effect between the opportunities and the mentality. If the other person has a significantly lower amount of those attributes, that just makes them more likely to accept rampant infidelity to continue reaping the benefits of the union by proxy. Even if they’re being thoroughly humiliated, they may stick it out for a place in this person’s life because the leverage is that asymmetrical. That’s the impact that female breadwinning has on divorce rates, if any – women are less financially dependent/status dependent on men, and therefore less likely to accept infidelity, domestic abuse, and/or a partner’s substance abuse as a fact of life for the rest of their lives.
Additionally, I’ve seen assertive dominant career women and men take advantage of more submissive female underlings by tossing their workload onto them… that means that those women also have to deal with longer hours and higher stress levels along with lower job security, unhappiness, and lower pay. How does getting trampled for 40-60 hours a week make them more primed for happy relationships? Because it’s proven that they will put up with undesirable circumstances and more likely that they’ll drop their job to nurture real babies that provide some kind of emotional ROI at home instead of adult babies that do no such thing at work as soon as possible?
Masculine men don’t complain about not being able to get married because it’s seen as an unmasculine desire to admit having – unlike in other cultures, fatherhood has been demasculinized somehow – and complaining about romance in general is not an acceptable masculine activity. Even men who complain about not getting enough/any sex “lose points.”
Andrew says
The masculine attracts the feminine.
The feminine attracts the masculine.
Is that so difficult?
Tontae says
I find it hysterical that the women here are giving advice about men. Apparently the men that they wish to find evidence of existence, rather than the men that are actually out there; that Evan speaks of continually and consistently. My whole perspective on relationships, dating, men and women have shifted dramatically and instead of floundering around on Fantasy Island, I feel confident to actually be part of reality. Thanks Evan
Annie says
@Andrew 39
I think some people are confused about what “makes” a person feminine or masculine.
The best description is what Evan gave, masculine is to do, feminine is to be receptive.
Trenia says
If Evan #34 is correct, the relationship and dating options will continue to worsen for women. Why? Because women are changing and evolving while men are trying to stay in the same place. What Evan said men want in a woman could have easily been said 40 years ago. The problem with that? Women’s roles and choices have drastically changed and improved since then.
Women are starting to outpace men getting college degrees, especially in African-American and Latino communities, and more and more women are going for more high-powered positions. If men don’t evolve on some level and if women and men aren’t able to come to some kind of consensus, there will be a lot more single women in the world.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Trenia “…there will be a lot more single women in the world”. You’re right. And that’s what we’re seeing. Women embrace their masculine energy (Go! Do! Achieve!) Men are not looking to date the female versions of themselves. And there’s a rising community of people like me who merely point out what we see – that it’s easier to embrace your own receptive feminine energy OR choose a less ambitious/charismatic man than it is to, say, change all men.
Dancing Faun says
EMK, you said: “No, you’re a pain in the ass who likes to make other people wrong.”
Is this an example of your feminine energy? Hoo boy.
If our jobs determined our “energy” you would be calling me the most feminine person in the world. I am a ballet dancer. Hello. The only profession more feminine than that is being a princess. But I gotta draw the line somewhere.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry, Black Swan. You’re a ballet dancer who has an abundance of masculine energy. That doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as feminine energy or that we can’t draw general conclusions from stereotypes.
Diana says
Trenia, your post reminded me of a recent article posted on CNN, which I’m including here, if Evan will allow it. I’ve seen other similar stories, too. I am raising a teenaged son and I sometimes think he doesn’t really know what it means to be a man. And I ask myself, “What does it mean to be a man in today’s society?” I think a lot of the young, adult men are feeling confused, and this has to play it’s part in dating, too. Sometimes it does seem as if women are evolving at rapid speed to a whole new level, and what’s going to be the outcome say 30 years from now?
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/opinion/bennett-men-in-trouble/index.html?hpt=li_c2
Dancing Faun says
And just as a sidebar, EMK, because I know you’ll never post it: Your response to me is verbally abusive. You can attract a certain kind of people with this kind of show of “masculine strength,” but it still is what it is. You won’t get far in the advice world if you are abusive in public. Good luck with that.
Evan Marc Katz says
DancingFaun – I can’t spend much time worrying about what women who DON’T like me have to say.
As long as I keep doing what I’ve been doing successfully for 8 years – providing articulate and passionate advocacy for smart, strong, successful women who want to understand how good men think – I will continue to take my chances that I’ll lose readers like you.
The world is big enough for all of us. I wish you luck in your future endeavors and sincerely hope you find the relationship you deserve. Now, please, stop insulting me on my own blog.
EMK
Helen says
Trenia, amen. As for your last line: “there will be a lot more single women in the world…” you know, sister, this isn’t the worst tragedy in the world. I have a daughter. I want the best for her. So I will encourage her to: go to Yale if possible, cure cancer if she likes, train for a triathlon if she likes, become a ballet dancer or law partner if she likes. What I will NOT encourage her to do is to make herself appealing for Mr. Generic American man who wants a receptive woman. Because she needs to learn how to live on her own – even the best partners could leave, die, etc. Because there’s so much more to life than being receptive. Because I’m not going to ask her to do the crazy dance of being assertive in one realm of life and passive in another.
When it comes down to it, sisters, we need to pursue what we desire in life. You can call “pursuing” a masculine trait if you want. I call it a human trait. Each of us is born with that desire, that flame. Not just the males. As Mary Oliver wrote: “Tell me, what is it you plan to do / With your one wild and precious life?” If it is to tone yourself down so that a man will want you… I hope you will consider whether you are asking for too little.
Evan Marc Katz says
Helen: that’s a great “you go, girl” speech. Unfortunately, it’s poor advice. In fact, “the crazy dance of being assertive in one realm of life and (receptive) in another” is EXACTLY the recipe for relationship success for women. If you want to be busy, and aggressive, and always “right” then you’ll just have to accept the fact that the smart, strong, successful men in the universe, on the whole, are not going to be falling for you. You don’t bring enough to his life, despite your many achievements. There’s nothing wrong with an achievement oriented life, mind you. But two people with Type A personalities tend not to make for the most compatible bedfellows. Your better bet is the beta male who is content with you killing the pig and making the bacon (he can fry it up in a pan for you)
And since you don’t seem to want to believe this when I say it about women, how about we apply this same advice to men, shall we?
Exhibit A: Alan is a man who does not want to buy into what is expected of his gender. He decided school wasn’t for him. He got a job right out of high school and was making $45,000 in his 20’s, which, for his needs, was pretty darned good. He never pursued adult education, content with his life as a middle manager. He likes women, but he doesn’t need a woman. He’s got his dog, his friends, his family, his weekend college football. Now that he’s 40, he’s let his body go a little bit, the way men do. In his heart, he’s a good man. Yet he’s really surprised that women aren’t responding to him on Match.com. When he got honest feedback from his one close woman friend, she told him that he was paunchy, not that educated, not that fit, and didn’t give women the feeling of intellect, security or inspiration that they needed to be with him.
My advice to Alan: understand what women want, and become that guy. Clean up your act. Get your degree. Put more pride and effort into your career. You’ll be able to attract more (and higher quality) women. If you don’t do that, you may find dating is a rough go.
I’m TELLING you what men want in a partner, and you keep resisting. And then you come back with “cure cancer, train for a triathlon”? Hey, the world needs people who will sacrifice to make big things happen. But I can’t think of too many men who’d be content in a relationship with that woman, since she’s never around.
The point is that you have a choice. By telling women that it’s crazy asking them to be “receptive”, you’re ignoring what most men want. This isn’t a judgment; just an observation. You try it your way. I’ll keep explaining to you what men think.
Just don’t twist what I said. You can STILL be smart, generous, accomplished, successful and educated. None of these are mutually exclusive to being feminine. Just know that these traits aren’t what men are vying for in women (we already have them ourselves!). Play up your femininity, optimism, understanding and self-awareness and you can land any man you want. Play up your triathlon times and your pool will shrink accordingly.
Would you tell Alan to keep trucking along, doughy, unmotivated, uneducated and content, just because that’s the way he is? I guess you could. I just think that he’d have a lot more dating options if he appealed to a majority of women (Generic American Females) who value traits like drive, ambition, passion, and education.
Soul says
I agree with Evan, and then again, I think it is important that we, women, start appreciating our feminine gifts and their true value, instead of valuing ONLY so-called masculine characteristics (Go! Get! Achieve!). Then again I love men and I admire and need masculine energy all the time. I get it from my man, from my brothers and from my male friends (I do need to activate it in my profession, but being a university professor, I do feel my femininity at work too).
Think about it…….or better: close your eyes and starting FEELING this…..in this world there is nothing like a sunset on a beach, a beautiful dance, a warm bath, fine delicacies, a mom’s hug, or the warm body of a loving wife…….and this by no means is less important than a Yale degree or a CEO position. Many times, it is far better and far more useful: think about how a loving gesture can heal a broken heart….or bring peace to a community…
even if I am not extremely religious myself, we do not say that “God is achievement” or “God is performance” loooool. That would come across as very odd, wouldn’t it?…..we say “God is love”, “God heals”…..that’s because this is what the world needs most: beauty and femininity…
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank you, Soul. You articulated feminine energy far better than I have. That is what men want. Accomplishments are icing on the cake. I have trouble seeing why stating this is so controversial.
In fact, I’m shocked that so many women continue to read this blog when they don’t agree with my central thesis that men (in general) date women because we feel good around you, not because of your resume.
How can you continue to tell me that I’m wrong about what (most) men want? Or is it that you simply don’t want this to be true because it would mean that, perhaps, you don’t make men feel very good, and that would be a hard pill to swallow? I really would like to know.
Helen says
Evan, it boils back down to what I’d mentioned earlier: the unspoken assumption that if someone is A, s/he also is B and does C.
I have a high-powered job. So does my husband. Neither of us has ever worked 60-hour weeks (re: a statement above) – not even close to that. Same with all our colleagues. So the assumption that a successful career means never being around is simply untrue.
In your 2nd-to-last paragraph: another example. I’m on board with you completely till the last sentence, and would say that if you pursue what you want and love your life, it’s easier to be optimistic, understanding, and all those things men want. But then the last sentence: why should participating in triathlons mean that a woman isn’t the above? It’s not either/or. It almost never is either/or.
I didn’t twist anything you said. However, I’d tell my daughter that if she’s with a man who isn’t content with her curing cancer and training for a triathlon, then she should look for someone else. That someone else may or may not be more or less ambitious than her. This agrees with your point 48. Again, I wasn’t disagreeing with you. I wonder if you took my comments – which were meant generally – too personally.
“I’m TELLING you what men want in a partner, and you keep resisting.” Not all men want the same thing in women. E.g., what about those more vs. less ambitious men you mention? Aside from examples in our own lives, several men posting here are testimony to that.
Evan, we both have daughters (congratulations on your new cute little one). When it comes down to what we want for them, what would you advise her? I wouldn’t tell others how to raise children, but for my own part, I will advise my daughter to pursue her dreams and not be stymied by worrying whether she is becoming too “alpha” to men as a result. Just as I would advise my son to pursue his dreams. You say this is poor advice. Not only do I not believe that is so in the context of relationships (because happiness makes you attractive), I would say it’s good advice for life. We should always remember, we only have one life to live.
Evan Marc Katz says
I think, Helen, that doing anything to the extreme has a cost. I also think there are exceptions to every rule. So forgive me if I don’t say in each sentence “many men”, “many women”, “most feminine traits”, “most high powered jobs” etc.
Successful careers VERY OFTEN mean that you’re putting work first and sacrificing your personal life. That may be the case for YOU, but it’s not for my private clients, all smart, successful women. It’s tiring to have every assertion I make rebutted because it doesn’t apply to EVERYONE. That goes for all the rest of my advice as well – it’s generalized advice that applies to a vast majority. 30% of men, by my estimate, are feminine – they don’t ask out women, they want you to call them, they want you to make the decisions. They tend to struggle more with women because women want them to have more confidence and “man up”. My advice is not intended to tell you how to get that guy. That guy isn’t in high demand, he’s fundamentally a pleaser, and he’ll be a great fit for most alpha women – if they’d only respect him.
My advice is for the masses. The exceptions – and there are many – don’t disprove the rules.
Finally, how will I raise my daughter? It’s a great question. I’ve been told that it’s at least 50% nature and that you can’t really mold kids, but steer them gently. I would hope that if I were a good parent, I’d let my daughter know that there are consequences to all behavior. If you skip out on class regularly, it’ll be harder to get into college. If you do recreational drugs at a young age, it will distract you from your long-term goals. If you have sex with your boyfriend, make sure he loves you first. Etc. Similarly, I think telling people to “just be yourself” can be bad advice…when being yourself isn’t actually WORKING. So I go back to the parameters I set in Why He Disappeared. This isn’t about right and wrong; this is about EFFECTIVE vs. INEFFECTIVE.
A woman who is too alpha may be herself, but she is INEFFECTIVE in connecting with men on a romantic level. I don’t think this is something that I should continue to foster – not in my daughter, not in my readers.
I can name a number of areas of my life where I was INEFFECTIVE in my teens and twenties…not because I was “bad” or “stupid”, but just because I was “being myself” and it wasn’t working.
Case in point: I pursued my dreams of being a screenwriter…until I realized that it wasn’t working. Then, I had to figure out a new way of being. I would guess that most women who have everything EXCEPT a happy love life would want to learn what they’re doing ineffectively, instead of encouraged to keep spending their spare time summitting Everest or burning the midnight oil at your law firm.
Katarina Phang says
Poor Evan, he has to repeat himself over and over and over.
Ladies, I’m an alpha female (I can support myself and I don’t need a man to survive) but I know to attract a masculine guy I can’t be all alpha in my mannerism with him. I will have to take a “backseat” a little and I’m okay with that because in fact I feel happier that way (as long as he’s not abusive, but I can live with a bit of “fragile male ego” and adapt to it for the “greater good,”: i.e. me being cherished as a woman as he feels manly around me and I feel womanly around him.
I use all my masculine energy all I like when I’m by myself: slay dragons, cure cancer…well not exactly, you name it. But when I’m with a man, I just want to relax and be a woman (okay, pamper and spoil me silly…that won’t hurt). Let him do all the “work”: ask, plan, take me to dates, pay…etc.
It can be done and I’m doing it. And guys keep asking for more dates. They don’t doubt at all I’m an independent woman who doesn’t need them to survive.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive, indeed but there is a time for each. Be all masculine when you’re alone, and all feminine when you’re with him. I don’t see a problem at all in that.
Malcolm says
Is this irrational (?) Is this imbalanced (?) Is this insensitive (?) Is this self-serving (?)
My Gawd . . . what is there in this that is so hard for some Women to appreciate (?)
Greg says
I don’t see whats so hard to understand. Men are attracted to different things than females. An extreme case of this would be a rap music video. The “masculine” men in the video always have money, ride in big cars, a million ugly tattoos and are totally in charge. In fact the lyrics of the songs usually talk about how the rapper runs the city or the world and is a big “Boss.” The women in the videos are the complete opposite of the men in the videos. “Feminine” and submissive to an extreme degree, willing to do what ever the rapper demands. Most videos and songs talk about kicking any woman to the curb who isn’t fun, has an attitude, ego has a big mouth and wants to nag and argue. The rappers don’t portray their objects of desire as someone who’s just like them. They want the opposite. Of course this is a very extreme example, but it just goes to show that men are not attracted to same traits they posses, like extreme ambition power and control. You women should listen to Evan.
Goldie says
@ EMK #52:
“In fact, I’m shocked that so many women continue to read this blog when they don’t agree with my central thesis that men (in general) date women because we feel good around you, not because of your resume.”
I don’t understand why that has to be limited to men. Why do women (in general) date men, if not because they feel good around them? not for the free dinners, I’m sure!
Take our friend Alan. Alan’s problem, to me, is not that he doesn’t have what women want – he doesn’t have what people want. He’s boring and lazy. He cannot carry a conversation about anything except college football. His favorite way to spend a weekend is in a recliner in front of the TV with his dog. Truth be told, I’d sooner spend time with Alan’s dog than with Alan, for the simple reason that Alan’s dog is fun, and Alan is not. Nothing to do with his masculine energies or lack thereof. That’s just what I respond to on a date: fun 😉
I actually liked the post, a lot. But to me, it said: here are the basic human traits that we all enjoy in a partner. Develop those traits, and look for those traits in your partner. If it turns out that your partner doesn’t have them, move on. Applies to both genders, IMO.
@ Trenia #42: but men do evolve. I’m pretty sure fifty years ago, a man wouldn’t be caught dead changing diapers, taking off work to be home with his sick kid, cooking dinner, etc. I see growth and development from both genders, not just one.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Goldie: No one said it was limited to men. This is a blog for women who want to understand men. That’s why all the posts have to do with telling women how they can adjust, not harping on what’s “wrong” with men.
The other point to make is that both men and women who choose healthy relationships WILL find a partner who makes him/her “feel good”. However, there’s a large swath of people who only consider that as an afterthought.
Those are the men who describe women as “crazy, whiny, motormouth, emotionally unstable golddiggers” (but put up with her because she’s hot).
Or the women who describe men as selfish, egotistical, emotionally unavailable players (but put up with him because he’s cute, smart and rich).
In other words, we’re attracted to what we’re attracted to, but ultimately, successful relationships for men occur when we get over women’s looks and start concentrating on how you treat us.
Same goes for women.
Alas, this blog is for women so the takeaway is about making your man feel good, not complaining about how men don’t make you feel good. Don’t like how he treats you? Leave him.
Diana says
To Helen #49, I hear much of my own words in your message. I have raised my daughter in a similar way, i.e. first and foremost to be financially independent, and to be aware that she doesn’t need to have a husband or children to live a fulfilling life. It’s not because I personally believe that being married and having children isn’t wonderful, fulfilling and rewarding. I know from first-hand experience the tremendous blessings they bring.
I wanted her to realize and to understand that she has the freedom to make more choices than ever before for herself, to think for herself, to be herself, to break free from societal norms, and to weigh ALL that life has to offer and only then make the decisions that feel right to her.
I have noticed a trend with her and her girlfriends. They are making what seems like more deliberate, definitive choices about their lives, and many of them have no desire to marry or have children. This could change, of course, as their lives change, and whatever my daughter chooses will always have my love and support. But I do believe there’s kind of a general consensus of wondering among a lot of young women today, “Do I really need a man in my life, and if I feel that I do, how much am I truly willing to change to attract him, hope to keep him, please him, etc.? With such a self-empowered feeling, and men generally not being encouraged to do the same [this isn’t meant toward Evan], I think it’s going to be a tough call.
Helen says
Katarina, it doesn’t seem to have to boil down to polarities. I hate to say it because it sounds as though I’m bragging, but I get exactly the same type of attention from men in my work environments, even when they know I’m both alpha and happily married. What it comes down to is being happy, making others around you happy, and sharing with them exactly what you want in a way that you know they’ll knock themselves over to give it to you. And they always do. 😉 (Frankly, I love men. That’s another stereotype to overturn: alpha women can absolutely adore men.)
On that at least, we definitely agree with Evan’s original point. Confidence, ladies! Heck, I agree with independence and emotional maturity as well… so why does it have to become an issue of polarity of masculine vs. feminine? However you decide to pursue it, be happy. I can think of no greater way to attract others.
Katarina Phang says
Helen, because polarity creates passion. That’s what I have learned personally as well.
The more a guy feels manly and a woman feels womanly, sex is alive and well.
The surest path of the death of sex is the loss of polarity.
Evan Marc Katz says
Money quote from Michael Singer’s The Untethered Soul “You struggle day and night to make the world fit your mode and label everything that doesn’t fit as wrong, bad or unfair. If anything happens that challenges how you view things, you fight. You defend. You rationalize. You get frustrated and angry over simple little things. This is a result of being unable to fit what’s actually happening into your model of reality. If you want to go beyond your model, you have to take the risk of not believing in it. If your mental model is bothering you, it’s because it doesn’t incorporate reality. Your choice is to either resist reality or go beyond the limits of your model.”
Helen says
Diana #59: it’s encouraging to hear that your (grown) daughter and her girlfriends are seriously considering their options; sounds like you informed her well. Personally I don’t believe it is possible to live a fulfilling life if you spend every moment trying to be pleasing to others, whether male or female. Of course, we should follow the basic social norms of being decent and kind to others, but that doesn’t mean that we should obsess about winning others’ approval. That, after all, is no guarantee for being coupled happily, either.
What you describe in your last paragraph has been happening in Japan. For the last 2 decades, Japanese women have been increasingly opting out of marriage. The traditional norm was that, once married, Japanese women are expected to shoulder nearly 100% of household and childrearing duties even if she has a job, and the man can be gone at all hours of the day and have a geisha on the side. So the women are saying: why get married at all? Instead, they hang out with their girlfriends (there’s a much stronger girlfriend culture in Japan) and have pets. This has provoked crises – depressed men and plunging fertility rates among them – in which even the government has had to step in and try to entice women into marriage with economic incentives. All very interesting to observe.
Kristine says
Helen #63 and other Helen, and Treina, and a few others:
You know, I think this is the problem. Let’s analogize it to driving a car. I don’t mind being a passenger. I love being a passenger! But I don’t want to be a passenger to a driver who’s intoxicated, or has vision problems, or has brain damage.
I think the problem is by and large not that smart, successful, capable women don’t want to be passengers. (I’m sure some don’t, but they’re probably a small minority, and probably find the men who DO wish to be passengers and those relationships are comfortable and stable)
The problem is that women can’t find decent drivers. Maybe they find men who are not horrible people but who just get distracted and repeatedly stop looking at the road. And then after a couple of accidents, the woman doesn’t want to LEAVE – but she doesn’t want to let him drive!
So she drives. But MEN (and I don’t blame them for this, I love them for this) REALLY BY AND LARGE DON’T WANT TO BE PASSENGERS. This is what Evan says, and I don’t actually disagree with him. The problem is, they don’t want to be passengers even if they’re terrible, dangerous drivers!
I think what people are saying on this blog – and this is why I was so hostile to Evan before – is that, we see that (1) it’s true that men will give you no peace from the passenger seat, and (2) many, many, even most men, if you let them drive, will get in accidents, possibly kill you, almost definitely get you into a crash that will hurt you so badly it will greatly impede your quality of life.
So the unpalatable choice faced by many, many women is to either (1) be alone, driving my own car, but lonely; (2) be a passenger to a man who gets in accidents all the time, biting my tongue, distracting myself with prescription drugs or what-have-you, and trying to avoid trips in the car (aka spending time together); or (3) drive a car with a man as a passenger and endure his resentment and passive-aggression. (Or should I say passenger-aggression? Ha ha)
Even the “Alans” of the world get bent out of shape at the idea of a woman who attempts to drive.
That is all.
Goldie says
@ Kristine #64, good analogy. Or how about a driver that, upon hearing that you want to go to, oh say a grocery store a few miles down the road, tells you, “Nah you don’t really want to go there. What you really want is a road trip to Arizona! Here, let me take you”. I don’t care if he’s the best driver in the world, I don’t want to go to Arizona unless I have explicitly said I do!
Or how about a driver who doesn’t make pit stops because he doesn’t need any, and the rest of you can just hold it… the list goes on and on.
Personally, I’d like to take turns driving. Even the best drivers get tired and need rest! Or, like what we used to do with my ex when we traveled in pre-GPS times – he drove and I navigated. I sat in the passenger seat with a huge map from AAA in my lap, watched the road signs and told him exactly when to turn, change lanes, which exit to take etc. I was also in charge of all controls in the car that weren’t related to driving – temperature control, music, etc. Also, the navigator (whoever it was at the moment) had to feed the driver, so the driver would pay attention to the road. Traveling was actually one of the few things we did well in our marriage. Never had any problems, never got lost. Why? because of teamwork.
Back to your list of possible choices for women, I guess I just came up with choice number 4! But yeah, I agree that alpha males aren’t probably going to like that one. Well that’s why I’m not looking for an alpha male.
L says
Maybe I’m too late for this discussion – but I think that Evan’s advice is applicable to a certain extent, however, it’s also very generational. I’m in my mid 20’s in an MBA program and I worked before school, and I can say that most of the men that I meet (American men, that is) would not be attracted to someone who’s main selling points is just easy going and nurturing. These are 20’s something successful, higher earning men with strong career growth potentials. What they really want is a yale grad who is also easy going and nurturing, and frankly, there are plenty of those out there.
Talking about my accomplishments never made a man unattracted to me. Going to a great business school didn’t make my boyfriend less attracted to me, in fact it made him value because he’s proud to talk about my accomplishments. I think it only becomes a problem when that’s the only thing you have going for you and you have nothing to offer but your accomplishments.
Going back to the business world, I see investment bankers married to investment bankers, consultants married to constultants, and doctors looking for other doctors who understand their life styles so I don’t think that being a high earning women precludes you from dating.
Helen says
Kristine 64, while I love your analogy, I’ll add three real-life scenarios:
(4) The woman is driving alone, but is not lonely.
(5) The man is a GOOD driver.
(6) The man and the woman take turns driving down the long, hard, winding, but beautiful road of life. With or without kids in the backseat, kicking their parents’ seats and getting into fights and rolling down windows at random times.
Joe says
Don’t make Evan turn this blog around and go home!
(Ha! -EMK)
W says
Lol
Evan Marc Katz says
L,
This is not a generational thing. This is a male thing.
I graduated magna cum laude from Duke. I spent 15 years attempting to find partnership based on intelligence. I’d tell friends who wanted to set me up to start with the smartest woman they knew and work backwards. I went on 300 dates using this formula. Know what I discovered?
Book-smart, educated and accomplished has little to nothing to do with “emotional intelligence.” Knowing how to let a guy be a guy. Knowing how to take care of him without being his mom. Knowing how to support him unconditionally. Knowing a hundred little things you can do to make his life better. Knowing how to accept him as he is instead of trying to mold him into who you want him to be.
My wife is intelligent, but she’s not an Ivy Leaguer, and I don’t care at all. The reason I married her is that she’s the best life partner I could find…not necessarily the most impressive.
Brilliant men may prefer brilliant women, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good fit, especially if she isn’t supportive, nurturing, fun, playful, and emotionally generous. (Of course, few women would admit to not being all of these qualities, but the fact remains, if men are consistently leaving you despite how “impressive” you are, there’s something you might be missing.)
Steve says
“What’s Attractive IN Men is What’s Attractive TO Men”
This slogan sounds like it is contradicting a GREAT lesson from one of EMK’s classic posts about why *some* highly successful women strike out in the dating scene:
Basically, in that post EMK states that is a mistake for women to assume what they find attractive in men is what men find attractive in women. To put it crudely, just because women are impressed by resumes is no reason to assume that is what men are looking for in women.
I think this earlier point is far more useful ( and correct ) than the new seemingly contradictory slogan above.
Diana says
I don’t know. While emotional intelligence is lacking in many individuals, and no doubt many overachievers are as Evan has described when it comes to dating, etc., I know there are many others who are also supportive, nurturing, fun, available, etc. I work at a major research university, and academic and/or career success doesn’t automatically equate with negative personality traits for either sex. I know this isn’t what Evan is saying. There are also many individuals who don’t have the academic and/or career success, and who also won’t make for a better partner because they, too, are on the lower end of emotional intelligence.
IMHO, try to avoid stereotypical, assumptive thinking about individuals and give them the opportunity to show you what they’re made of. You might be pleasantly surprised, and if not, you’ll learn something valuable in the process.
L says
Evan (#69), I totally agree with you that a woman does need to have emotional intelligence and know how to let a man be a man. But as I look around most of my female peers – most of them have that covered while still managing to be super successful in their career. And I will say thing again, looking at the successful business people around me mid-20’s to mid-30’s, many of whom are married, none of them are married to un-sucessful and un-driven women. Perhaps they are not good fits and will get divorced and in 14 years or so come to see your point of view, but right now they don’t feel the same way – these are the guys that we, or at least I have to date. Dating in my late 20’s, I feel that being nurturing and feminine is not enough to snag a guy anymore – they also want to hear about travels, career ambitions and so on. I’ve had several friends who were broken up with because they guys felt that the women were too passive in their own lives and the men couldn’t bring themselves to respect them when there were so many other perfectly normal AND driven women around them.
I think that the negative reaction from all the women to your post is because you are assuming that if the woman wears the pants at work, she will also want to wear them at home. For many, I don’t think that’s the case. If that is the case, I’d say it’s lack of social awareness of the female doing this, rather than a reflection on successful women acting masculine all the time. Just because I’m doing hardcore quant finance modeling at work doesn’t mean that I come home every day and make my boyfriend, who never got past basic calc, listen to my accomplishments that day even though his eyes are glazing over with boredom instead of asking him about his day and heating dinner. Maybe that’s what women are actually doing and this is were you are coming from, but I wouldn’t say this is really reflective of most.
I totally agree with the main point of your blog – which is that men like women who like men and want to make men feel good – but I completely disagree that a woman must give up all assertive traits in all areas of her life to do this. And I also do believe that many many men out there do want a successful and accomplished woman.
Evan Marc Katz says
@L – “I completely disagree that a woman must give up all assertive traits in all areas of her life to do this.”
I’d disagree with me too, if I actually said that. You can be as assertive as you want at work. It just doesn’t fly very well at home with a similarly assertive guy.
Kristen says
Wow, this is a difficult discussion. While I agree with Evan’s ideas on how to be “successful” with men, I think it speaks to our where we are in our society in terms of gender equality. Helen, thank you for all your comments. You seem like a very likable, easy to get along with person and a great mother. I am going to need more time to think about what it means to be a “good candidate” for a marriage partnership. I’m very troubled by the idea that the weight of making a partnership work weighs most heavily on the woman’s shoulders. At least that’s what I am hearing. It seems to me that accepting your partner (liking them as they are…) is the biggest start to success.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Kristen “the weight of making a partnership work weighs most heavily on the woman’s shoulders”. Nope.
1) The only thing you can change is yourself, not men. That’s what rests on your shoulders – responsibility for YOUR actions.
2) If you’re not satisfied with the effort a man’s giving, then you’ll dump your guy and there is no relationship.
Sounds to me like it’s pretty equally weighted. A guy who isn’t a good boyfriend loses the privilege of dating you. How is that weighing on your shoulders?
nathan says
It seems to me that it’s only people who exhibit the extremes that are always going to run into problems like this. Two people who are highly assertive in all areas of their lives will probably have a hard time in a relationship with each other. Or two people who are totally passive.
But how many folks fit that bill? I don’t know very many on either end, and think most of us are somewhere along the continuum. The way I see it, a good partner will be someone that support you being strong and assertive at times, and who also will help you to stand back and reflect when that’s appropriate. Compromise should mostly be about benefiting both people in some manner, as opposed to making someone stuff their views and ideas to please the other. If you’re relationship is either a turf war, or a situation where you have to hide who you are, then it’s really not worth being in.
Helen says
Kristen 73, thank you!
nathan 76: absolutely. No one is that extreme; we all fall somewhere in the vast in-between space of the spectrum. It is usually the people who haven’t experienced much of life yet that fall at the extremes – witness the comments on the “slut” thread. Gaining more life experience and interacting with more people generally moves us closer to the middle.
I would say the same phenomenon occurs when two people have gotten to know each other for a while. Katarina had a point earlier when she said that “polarity creates passion.” That makes a relationship exciting at first. But marriages aren’t about everlasting passion; they are much more about friendship and partnership. CS Lewis has described friendship as two people who are not gazing into each others’ eyes, but are looking in the same direction toward the same goal. When you have a family to nurture and sustain, that is what the couple becomes. They are not poles. They are together in the middle.
Confused says
I am having trouble integrating the message of this post with all the posts on men wanting women that make them feel good not so much who are successful and impressive….is this more under the dating skills category like with “mirroring”?
Annie says
Interesting article about single women in the Atlantic. Addresses issues raised in Trenia and Helen’s posts:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/?single_page=true
Helen says
Annie 79, wow. What an interesting article. Thanks for sharing it.
I am surprised that this author, despite her LONG article, never arrived at the same conclusion that Evan did in a previous post: women should give the men who didn’t graduate from college a chance. (I don’t want to call them “beta males,” because they may in fact be superior in ways beyond education.) In the US, we are still giving birth at ratios of about 50:50 male:female, so it’s not as though there is actually a shortage of men. But this author says there’s a shortage of “good men,” and she defines “good” mostly in terms of whether they completed college. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs never completed college. Hmm.
The upshot is that in today’s world, where we’re educated at much higher rates than men, women who wish male partners need to seriously consider those guys who haven’t completed a degree.
Of course, that also leads to the question which hasn’t really been addressed in this blog. What do the men who haven’t completed a degree think of the prospect of partnering with alpha women?
Annie says
@80 Helen
Good points you make. Education doesn’t really Equal Character. I think in the past it did. When people were educated, they were “well-mannered” and ‘behaved” correctly. So we’ve equated education, with good behaviour.
Not the case anymore. And sometimes..it’s the opposite.
CAM says
For the love! I’m just grateful to hear a man (EMK) express himself, period. You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve googled, “How to understand men.” Ladies, let’s not kill the messenger. EMK is here, *honestly* giving us the answers to our questions, so why crucify the man? He has been gracious enough to publish some of the truly ugly posts in this thread so if you don’t like what you read, be respectful in turn and log off.
We will NEVAH (my lame attempt at a Northeastern accent) change some of these frogs into princes and yet we’re pissed when we can’t. I’m one of those ‘alpha’ females and I know I can be successful *and* have a great relationship (which, BTW, Marc has never disagreed with); however, as one of my most favorite women, Margaret Thatcher stated, “Being in power is like being a lady; if you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.”
And that’s all I have to say about that.–Forest Gump
Ileana says
Great comments and great blog! Here’s my 2 cents on the whole story. I probably have far less experience
than most of the people here, but I think that coming from a somewhat different
culture might bring a twist to the whole thread.
Growing up in a eastern European country which was just discovering democracy and importing ‘feminist
trends’ from the West, I have been taught by my parents that my main goal in life
is supposed to be becoming a successful, independent, cultivated, refined lady,
who can financially support herself in any circumstance and not depend on a man
to survive. My dad (who works in the military) and my grandfather (who used to
be a player in his days) stressed out the — in their words- paramount
importance of having a strong personality, standing up for oneself, gaining the
respect of others, questioning authority, accepting challenges and, when necessary,
challenging men, but being careful not to become one. At that time, I had no idea
what they meant. On the other side of the barricade, my mother (math teacher
and artist) and my grandmother (devoted housewife) were trying to balance
things by giving me advice like: ‘If you have a heavy bag, don’t pick it up and
let them (the guys around) do it. They
will be happy to do it. However never forget how important it is to know that
you CAN pick it up’. At that time, I used to think that they were referring to
gender roles in society etc. and found it complete nonsense. But then I realized
something amazing! It wasn’t about gender roles — how could it have been, when
they were constantly trying to make me less ‘softer’ — it was about defining masculine
and feminine energies!
Anyway, time went by.mI don’t want to brag, but I have had a fair amount of success— which peaked
when I received my admission letters from Oxford (law), Cambridge (nanotechnology)
and Harvard (law). Because of various personal reasons, I had to drop my ‘Oxford
dream’ and chose to move with my family in Germany, where I started studying
law. Arriving in ‘The West’ I was somehow shocked by the way both women and men
behaved in this part of the world. Now, I don’t want it to seem as if I am
labeling a whole country (because I am not) or that I am biased (because I am
not). I just speak of what I have observed.
Women are so ‘manly’,min contrast to our eastern European standards. They want to achieve a lot,
which is great and all — who doesn’t? — but they end up getting lost in this ‘journey
’ and eventually burry under that whole pile of ambition what they are at their
core — women. I am not saying that what they want is wrong — heck, I want a
great career too — but the way they are going seems to be wrong. Family is not
important for them and nor is having a stable relationship, but then again, these
very women are complaining that many men are ‘pansies’. Am I seeing a vicious
circle here? From this I take it that they actually want a ‘manly’ man, but aren’t
willing to give up some of the balls they’ve been growing in order to actually
find this manly man.
Then there are the ones complaining about so many local German men actually marrying South American,
Asian or eastern European women. Why exactly these 3 regions? Maybe because most
of the women around there still are in touch with their feminine core? I got
the same feedback from 2 of my guy friends who are currently studying in Sweden
and in Norway. The 2 are simply brilliant in their fields and both told me that
they will surely not be dating any local girls/women, since they are so ‘rugged’,
which makes them ‘unattractive’. ‘Why
would I date a guy’? I was so shocked when I heard that – So obvious, so simple.
As far as I am concerned, I can only tell you this. Even if I am 21, I have worked my a** off
at school and now, during University, to be among the best. I have read 300+
books , speak fluently 3 foreign languages, can fix things around the house, so
I don’t need to call a handyman, and have a blue belt in karate. I am going to
start my LLM soon and then planning my PhD. I will eventually strive to become
partner. But then again, I am willing to give some of this up if I meet the right guy. I took up law because I wanted
to help people, not because I wanted to show others how much money I can make
or how fast I can get promoted. I will always continue practicing law, no
matter what. The only difference is that I can chose not to be super-turbo-active
and lay back a little.
The cruel reality is that having my own cool office within the firm and dealing with the
oh-so-important clients won’t give me a hug when I am down or lots of love when
I need it. Eventually, my parents will do that… but sadly, they won’t live
forever.
So it probably depends on each of us to set their priorities. Cheers to you, Evan, and keep up the good work!
m says
“He knows how to treat a woman.”
Men who go *POOF* do not fit in this category.
Evan Marc Katz says
@m
Sorry, M. A man can know how to treat a woman and still break up with her because he’s unhappy in the relationship. Happens all the time.
Goldie says
@ EMK #84 – they’ll break up, but they won’t go *POOF*. Unless *POOF* doesn’t mean what I think it means. I took it to understand that one day, the guy just ceased all contact, which is pretty shabby treatment. Those of my guy friends that have talked to me about their breakups, all took the time to do it face-to-face if they were in a serious relationship like the one described above.
While on the subject, I didn’t see a problem with the fact that the guy “didn’t bother to justify it with an explanation”. IMO giving an explanation can be like giving the person a false hope – he’s leaving me because of A, B, and C, so, if I fix A, B, and C, he’ll come back. That’s too much unnecessary pressure on both sides.
Josie says
Thx for the great post, does that mean when guys disappear or POOF, women should not reflect on herself and self blame. As guys generally do that on purpose? I do have your e-book, think its time I read that again…
B says
WOW. I actually read through all these comments. We women are COMPLICATED lol. OMG, its so clear. We just like to argue. Thats it.
Evan is trying to get to the truth of the matter. And hes right.
But I have a question for you Evan, since you even claim to be a know it all and such. Do you find with experience and age, that everything about life and relationship becomes less black and white? And uncertain? Or is it the opposite?
Because I use to be a liberal know it all, but boy was I just young and naive. The more I know, the more I realize how much I didnt know about anything. Complexities existed everywhere. There were rules and exceptions, but sometimes the exceptions outnumbered the rules (?) and became the rules themselves…then new exceptions form.
There are concreteness to life and relationships. I agree with social sciences that reality is always changing.
That is why what a man in his 50s want in a woman…is COMPLETELY different from what a man in his 20s want in a woman. The shifts in cultural norms and relationship dynamics change.
Nothing we say that a man or woman want can truly be the “same” things as those are always changing due to changing demands, needs, norms, views, values, etc.
This is just my two cents.
Fenix says
Hi Evan, I really liked this post and I can really relate to it.
I am generally like this, and with this qualities I attracted my last BF. But since he broke up with me I find it soooo hard to be as I used to. You are right that your client was lucky and had to live it after only 6 weeks.
Thanks for the advice!
Mykella says
Thanks for sharing this! My husband was a disappearing jerk. We had money issues and he just disappearedthen said he had someone else since he couldnt just disappear with the marriage licence and all. I feel no regrets, I worked hard to be a great wife and I was. I just didnt get to know him long enough to avoid having a breakup have to turn into a divorce. I know for next time to take it slow. I’m a good woman. I deserve that.
lyrakay says
It is interesting to see resistence and agreeance here. It would be equally interesting to see how well those who have resisted EMK’s advice have fared in their relationship status.
All I know is that each time I was proposed to by a man, it was when I was just having fun and enjoying time with him…not all ate up over the future. I was also very supportive of the guy, wanting to find out what his dreams were..and assuring him I thought him capable of achieving them. Assurance, support, love, fun..all ended up proposing. I was married 7 years first marriage, 13 years in the 2nd. What I’ve learned is that things start falling apart when I lost that supportive demeanor and didn’t seem so reassuring to the man…I found fault with him, and didn’t think his jokes were quite so cute anymore. I started taking control of things I thought needed to be done differently or better. Started managing and directing instead of listening, supporting, and assuring. Granted…I’m not sure which ended first…his attention to me, or my support and assurance to him. One things for sure though….the fun left the game yet the players continued play because, just like the game of Monopoly…the game isn’t over till the last one is left holding everything….but nothing. In Monopoly, you win when your opponents have lost and had to leave. Yet…there you sit, with all the money, power and titles…and no one to share them with. Ironic, hmmm?
I’ve since been proposed to 3 times in the last 4 years. None were the ones I wished to settle with however. That being said….each time I received a proposal, it was when I focused on being supportive, assuring, and loving…and trust me, that did not mean being motherly. lol We had FUN as a by-product of getting along well….and as a result of my own detachment to a serious outcome of the relationship. I just let go and had FUN!
So…for those ladies who keep asking the tired question: Why should I change myself to attract and keep a man? The answer is: You don’t have to change a thing…just get used to living ALONE. Is it necessary to breathe? No…not unless you want to live. Is it necessary to be more feminine to keep a mans interest and affection? Yes..if your goal is to keep it and have a committed relationship. Be your alpha self if, like me, you get antsy and just want to spread your wings and fly free, and, like a butterfly, stop at first one flower and then the next. If you want to keep that masculine energy…then date like a man does. What’s stopping you, huh? If your bed is lonely, hello…you’re a woman! 10 minutes in a singles bar and you can fill it easily.
You’ll see the truth to the matter when your wings grow weary and you start thinking about settling down. When you start feeling a certain hollowness deep down inside that hurts worse than changing things up a bit and stepping out of character. After all…..you’re asking guys to do essentially the same thing. Do you think its a natural instinct for men to want to get married? WHAT? You DO? Tell ya what….do an independent poll…with a non-slanted basis. Poll 1000 single men and ask them if they dream about getting married. I have a feeling they’re more inclined to dream about flying from flower to flower. lol
I ask one last question. What could it hurt to simply try an experiment?
For those who are alpha females…don’t mention how much you make, flirt with the guy sweetly, be interested in his dreams and goals, be assuring to him that he’s awesome, laugh at his jokes, have outrageous crazy fun with him…be young and goofy for goodness sakes, and see how serious he suddenly gets (ever wonder why guys are attracted to younger women? Cause they have fun…and it’s not just because they’re young and firm and have better bodies….I have been 50-60 lbs overweight each and every time I received marriage proposals…and NOT by ugly or nerdy guys either!). Now…try the reverse. Start monopolising the conversation with how demanding your job is, spend longer hours at work, tell him you’re not quite in the mood to go do what he wants to do, start telling him how he could do things better without him asking your advice…and see how long the relationship lasts. I dare you. Double dare you!
Selena says
@ lyrakay #91
Good post. Found myself nodding my head all the way through. 🙂
Rochelle says
Also found myself nodding at #91 lyrakay. I don’t see why the masculine and feminine concept would be difficult to comprehend..and I think the terms just strike a nerve with some people. Neither one is better than the other and we all have both masculine and feminine energy. This year when I discovered that men nowadays still fall in love with the softer side of women, and not looking mainly at “things in common” or our success and education, it made me feel so much more confident about attracting the type of man I’d like to be with. I do have a good job, one that does not require all my time and energy, as it’s more of a support role rather than an executive one. But it’s enough to make me feel financially independent of others. This realization made me long ago know that I didn’t feel like I must be with a man who made more money than me. But I had habits that came off controlling, too masculine or insecure. However,despite that factor I am feminine at my core and it’s just because of societal and peer influence that I thought I was supposed to always be in “go chase it down, be aggressive” mode everywhere, including in my relationships. Honestly it felt draining to channel more of my masculine energy in dating, plus it clearly was not working all these years. I just didn’t know any better. I’m enjoying dating more now that I know it’s actually more effective to embrace my feminine energy so I feel like when the man who makes it clear with his efforts that he wants a relationship comes along, I will not be feeling all insecure and weak in the knees.
Kathy says
This was very interesting.
Bastet says
Responding to the original blog, its a very good point.
An attractive man doesnt hold onto past relationship pain but instead learns from it. As a woman, I absolutely agree. I am very much in this space now myself. I look at my previous relationships and can see what was attractive about the guy and what the ‘red flags’ were. Ive been to a councellor and explored my own baggage to come to an understanding of my own negative AND positive contributions. I hope that the next man I like appreciates the personal work and growth and has given himself time and introspection too.
An attractive man is independent and makes time for you. Again, I agree. A man who has his own life and has room in his life for me is ideal. A man who makes me the centre of his universe or expects me to make him the centre of my universe is just plain hard work. The pressure is too much in these circumstances because I cannot be another’s be all and end all nor do I wish to sacrifice my interests and dreams to make another my be all and end all. So yes, I am independent and when a man catches my attention I make time for him.
An attractive man is confident. Thus, he is not arrogant or trying to elicit pity empathy from me. Confidence, in my opinion is person, male or female, who is standing in their own energy. They know they are not perfect and accept themselves, imperfections and all. They take as much learning from experiences as they can and know this learning makes them better and better with each passing day. They have good days and bad and understand this to be human. Fantastic!
Now, to respond to masculine and feminine energy. I think we all need to be balanced. Hyper masculinity and hyper femininity is unnattractive (in my opinion). A man who cannot ever accept my goals and dreams is not masculine, he is belittling. A man incapable of lovingly supporting me (nurturing) when I am having a bad day, is not masculine, he is self-centred. A man who can never accept me leading a date and taking him out is not masculine, he is a control freak. And so forth.
The ability to be receptive, to support, to nurture, to protect, to initiate and to love is important in both sexes. Yes, men are attracted to femininity and women to masculinity. On this, I agree. I would state that there are many femininities and many masculinities. For example, as a 5 ft woman only weighing 46 kgs, men are always larger and stronger than me. When a being chooses gentleness and is capable of great strength, it is his choice, his honest desire to be gentle, that is so very attractive.
judy says
EMK – I spat my tea out on the computer when I read this, with laughter.
Well, good riddance, buddy! Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out
Almost feel like having this printed for any ex’s but what the hell.
Interesting theory that men wanted feminine energy and I believe this most sincerely. Why should a man want a man at home, (unless he’s homosexual right?).
Also, there are men who, unfortunately, are rather feminine and this is a bummer too.
For me, if he can’t take any decisions right from the start, forget it – at least, as far as I’m concerned, because…..him and I ain’t gonna work together.
Still laughing about the comment in bold.
Kush says
I am a 25 year young woman, who is struggling with the concepts of masculine and feminine energy. I am an introvert, artist, lover of nature, very in touch with my ability to assert masculine qualities when necessary…and totally in love with embracing femininity. I love the way I feel and flow when around masculine men. I am what you could call, a “guys girl” because I love to have fun, and explore….in professional settings, I have a hard time leaving my sexuality and sensuality at the door. So I don’t! I attract men, and women seem threatened by my confidence around men. I find, that around men, I can relax and feel energized by their company and energy. Just quit my job as a retail manager, because I could feel my energy waning. I could no longer smile at others, connect or be polite, because of operating in my masculine. I was exhausted! But. After quitting, I felt more like myself again and vowed that I want to be turned on at work, not shut down! I need to express beauty and bring pleasure All of the time. I am inspired by Alpha Women, but realized that the truest Alphas are women who are feminine and vulnerable! I always thought, that being tough and showing little emotion was better than being told you are weak (my father, a very masculine man, often is disgusted by my emotionality, when sometimes all I need is shoulder to cry on.) As a result, I cry alone, and keep my guard up around men, for fear of being criticized. So appearing emotionless, like, invulnerable, has become my mask……men then complain that I am cold and cease to approach. I am not cold, I am just hurting and scared to show my heart and my affection. I tell men, sometimes I am not good expressing my feelings. I tell them, it makes me feel weak. They can relate….I admit, I do feel threatened, not by women who are more feminine, but are not scared like me. I know that my gift is in my smile and my heart, but I must be allowed to feel sadness, and not be made to feel wrong, weak or unnatural.
I have become this confusing mix of shyness and openess. But now I only find that I can be only sexually open or mentally. My heart (emotion) is hidden behind a cool social reserve.
I really need a nurturing man. I don’t know how this fits into masculine/feminine discussion. I suppose I could nurture myself, and just keep it moving.
RustyLH says
Kush…you said you need a nurturing man. I think men are very capable of being nurturing. I think it will depend on how you show your emotions that will determine whether a man can nurture you. I think men are drawn to the vulnerable side of a woman. It brings out the knight in shining armor. However, if your emotions also cause you to lash out at a man, then he will be loathe to approach, and won’t drop his guard. If he can’t drop his guard, he can’t nurture you. So the reality is, women do have to be careful with their emotions. if a man has hurt you, the very best way to respond to him is with vulnerability, softness, etc…
Never use emotions to manipulate. It may work at first but we usually catch on that you are doing that and when we do, we resent it very much.
Just be yourself, be open and honest, and remember that while he may seem tough, he too has emotions. He will feel good about nurturing you, being the shoulder to cry on, etc… so long as you make him feel safe in doing so. Also, sometimes men need time to think about something. Sometimes we can be cold during the moment, but if we are made to feel safe in doing so, we will approach you later and be ready to talk about it.
Jen says
Thank you for your inputs. I love when I see men posting on here. It really does help to see your perspective. Your last sentence particularly struck a chord with me. I’m taking that info with me, to practice patience in the future.
Vanessa says
I would like to state my opinion. I have had a few failed relationships. All that started started off with a bang. Romance, attention , flowers Ect ect ect. They all flopped at different times. There was a common denominator. I switched ” energies”. I became aggressive, assertive and so fourth. It is true and Evan is right.
No one is inventing the wheel again here. It’s how it’s always been and will be. Reading the posts you can see how head strung and opinionated these women disagreeing are. the comments from some of these women are. A man stay bad don’t stray when he’s feeling like a man, authentic lot just as a women is devoted when she’s being treated as a women. Wheb there’s conflict there’s an imbalance in energy. It’s human nature. Just my opinion and my experience.
Neely Steinberg says
Perhaps understanding why you seem to have a pattern of “switching energies” will help you in your dating journey, Vanessa. Once you can unpack what’s going on below the surface and understand why you make the switch, you’ll be able to make different choices moving forward. Bringing the unconscious to a place of awareness is key to a person’s self-growth, IMO. So instead of just blindly following dating rules and learning WHAT to think, you learn HOW to think for yourself.
Runner says
Jennifer probably doesn’t have much to offer as a partner. He probably gave her the benefit of the the doubt for a while but decided to move on when she didn’t come through. If this guy really was good, he wasn’t interesting in settling for her.
Dina Strange says
Once again, Evan proves why he is one of the BEST dating coaches out there. Applause.
Jeannie says
I agree w/ Evan 100% & think that for the people in this thread that DON’T GET what Evan says, try reading about polarity/masculine/feminine energy in David Deida’s book, “Intimate Communion” ! Deida gives very descriptive & mentally visual pictures of what it is all about.
Also, I get the impression that many women do not understand that your romantic relationship is seperate from your job/career/educational relationships- you can have masculine energy in the office, & feminine energy w/ your partner.
Feeling free to embrace my inner & outer feminine self, as well as understand things about my nature that are evolutionary based has been the epitome of liberation for ME!
GL says
I bet he tried to come back, too.
kendra says
Wow, for a bunch of ‘professional women’ you all seem to be really missing the point here. Gender labels aside…leaders do better with followers and followers do better with leaders. If you are a leader, look for a follower – chances are, with another leader, you are either going to butt heads or go separate ways. Then again, there is a high chance that many of you leaders won’t have any respect for a follower. Sucks to be you.