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I am bothered by the fact that I’ve never been married. I SO desire to get married within the next couple of years or so, but I want it to be with the right person. I wish I was married about 5 years ago or so. Like virtually all women, I would like to have my “princess day” of getting married before I go completely gray and I look too old. I am also very worried that if I don’t get married soon enough while my baby is young, she will never have a father figure in the picture whom she can comfortably bond with.
I believe I am reasonably attractive and on the “cute” side. I am five feet tall, a little over 100 pounds, and have very long dark hair. But, to this day I have a hard time finding the right guy. I don’t feel any chemistry when I’m not with a guy I find equally attractive. Sure, of course personality counts, but I just don’t feel comfortable with kissing a guy whom I don’t find attractive.
To sum things up, over the years I’ve found that the guys who are interested in dating me are either too “geeky” looking and unattractive, too old, or, if they ARE my age and I find them attractive– they don’t seem stable in life and don’t have a good job OR they’re just plain conceited jerks (like my baby’s father). I’m not kidding. I’ve been trying online dating with several different sites, but that hasn’t worked out for me.
Why am I having such a hard time in finding someone who is mutually interested in me whom I find attractive, who holds a steady decent job AND has a decent personality? I don’t think I’m asking for too much here, or am I? Should I force myself to be in a relationship with someone whom I don’t find terribly attractive and I don’t feel any chemistry with (whom I just don’t want to be “intimate” with?).
Paula
Dear Paula,
First of all, I want to validate all of the women who feel just like Paula does. I know it’s not always easy to hear the other side of things — or even consider that there IS another side of things — but we’re here to try to get down to a core truth. This isn’t about right and wrong; this is about effective and ineffective. If your goal is to get married and find a father for your baby, you always have to keep that in mind.
If you want someone stable and kind and attractive and tall and personable and age-appropriate and financially well-off, and you can’t seem to find him? Maybe you need to compromise on SOMETHING.
And I think that’s where the Lori Gottlieb critics went a bit astray. See, if your primary desire is to lead an exciting, passionate life, then, well, you go, girl. But if you want someone stable and kind and attractive and tall and personable and age-appropriate and financially well-off, and you can’t seem to find him? Maybe you need to compromise on SOMETHING. You can transpose the world “settle” for compromise, if you like, but we’re talking about the same thing here: giving up one thing to get something else…
My girlfriend is compromising by dating an opinionated, Jewish atheist who spends way too much time working, talking about ex’s, and complaining about all the things wrong in his life. What she gets in return is a guy who is pretty self-aware, always trying to get better, has a good work ethic and excellent family values. She could spend her time lamenting that I’m not athletic enough, cheery enough, or free enough to take vacations at the drop of a hat, but she doesn’t. She has compromised — and, some might say, settled. After all, there are probably some tall, attractive, wealthy, Catholic men looking for a super-cool woman. And yet she chooses me.
I know, Paula, that you feel that you’re talking about something else. You’re talking about men who are old, unattractive, boring, unstable — dealbreakers all. But as I tell my clients, you can be as choosy as you like, as long as you don’t choose yourself out of all your options.
An example from the other side of the aisle:
I once had a wealthy 56-year-old client who wanted a woman 20 years younger who not only didn’t want kids but could pick up and travel on a dime on his private jet. This means she can’t have a serious job, or be too tethered to her friends, and must be willing to move to his area. Oh yeah, and he’s not looking for a trophy — intelligence, class and poise are a must. There’s nothing wrong with what this man wants, but when he factors in:
How few 35-year-olds truly want 56-year-olds
How few 35-year-olds don’t want kids/don’t have kids
How few intelligent women don’t have careers or deep roots in their hometowns
Guess what? There’s virtually NO one left for this guy to choose from. So what do you tell this successful, intelligent, youthful man to do? Say it with me, ladies: COMPROMISE! Go out with an older woman. Give a little on the kids thing. Accept the fact that an intelligent woman might have a career and can’t travel spontaneously. This seems REALLY obvious from the outside, but hey, this guy REFUSES to settle. The heart wants what the heart wants. It just seems pretty clear that starting with such a narrow dating pool makes it next to impossible to find someone compatible.
So ask yourself — are you being reasonable with your desires/demands? It’s not my place to say. But play with the percentages and you’ll see. You might think you’re really open until you realize that 99% of the men in the world DON’T QUALIFY for a first date with you. The charismatic cute guys are emotionally vacant players with money issues, the geeky guys are too bland to be kissable. This is YOUR observation. These are YOUR judgments.
Thus, you have two choices — lower the bar — or steadfastly hold out for that 1% – and hope that coincidentally, that 1% feels that you’re in HIS 1%.
We want everything — and want to give up nothing to get it.
As always, there’s not a right and wrong. But if you really want to be married and find a father figure for your baby, you might have to give up something to get it.
It just seems that no one wants to compromise. We want everything — and want to give up nothing to get it. If you’re a lawyer, refusal to compromise is a terrible negotiating technique. If you’re looking for lasting companionship, it’s probably even worse.
Markus says
To Evan’s point Paula, I think I’m a fit, good-looking, intelliegent 38 yo father of 2 young boys. And I love kids and would be happy to be a father figure to your daughter. But, because I pay $800-$1000/month in child support I have trouble making ends meet. So, you’d ditch me. I do wish you the best of luck however. “And here we are again. The door is closed behind us. And a long road lies ahead. Where do we go from here?”
vino says
This is going to be blunt. Evan’s far, far kinder than I’m going to be but hey, he’s the pro at this.
Paula, IMO, needs a serious reality check. A general observation about her note to Evan – for someone who wants to be married so badly, there’s absolutely nothing in there about what she offers to a potential husband, besides she thinks she’s attractive. I there is a big list of “I wants’ though.
First, she’s 34 with a child. Having a child will rule out many, if not most men. More importantly regarding her child, she writes, ” . . . from a previous relationship that didn’t work out because my ex BF didn’t want the baby.”
How is he entirely to blame for the child? Let’s look at that. Last I heard, there were approximately 11 different forms of birth control available to women even morning after pills. She apparently didn’t choose even one. Second, ex-boyfriend could have or could not have used a condom. It could have slipped, broken, etc. (FYI a condom’s a backup, not a primary birth control method). So she had several choices prior to conception: (1) use some type of birth control; (2) have sex; (3) not have sex. Her ex had similar choices, but not nearly the breadth of birth control choices. Not to have a whole pro-choice argument, but after conception, she also has the choice of an abortion also. He has zero say in that decision.
So to recap – she chose to have sex without birth control, without taking the morning after pill, and choosing not to have an abortion. So she wanted a baby all along. He didn’t want the baby, something she likely knew all along. But he’s to blame for the failed relationship? Puh-leeze. I think she needs to examine her choices regarding this and how that is a turn off to potential suitors. She seems incapable of accepting responsibility regarding this.
Paula also wrote:
“I am also very worried that if I don’t get married soon enough while my baby is young, she will never have a father figure in the picture whom she can comfortably bond with.”
Why is that some other man’s responsibility? It is ex-boyfriend’s. I suspect, but the letter does not indicate, that Paula would want the prospective husband too adopt baby, with all of those legal entanglements & responsibilities.
Why is Paula having a hard time finding men acceptable to her tastes? I suspect men she would like are staying far away from her, as well they should.
My opinion.
ARK says
Excuse me, but is this a bashing board or a supportive board?? sounds like you have issues
Anne Bo says
haha haaaa…let facts be known. “Can’t have your cake and eat it”. The point is…..accepting responsibilities and infact calling a spade a spade an not a big spoon.
Concerned says
Some of ur observations r so terribly wrong. No form of birth control is 100%. There r women who have gotten pregnant faithfully taking birth control. Both the morning after pill and abortion has certain risks (medically, physically and emotionally) that most men r not concerned with, but 4 them is an easy out. 4 women, not so much.
Now if more men considered the women they r with as much as the women consider the men, the world would b a better place. But most men r 2 selfish and self-centered 2 think that way, because they want their cake and eat it 2.
Consider the things u say b4 u say. I don’t would think u don’t have 2 do many friends especially women. I’m just saying!
The Voice of Reason says
Women don’t consider men at all, thus why she’s 34 and still looking for one. She wants a dreamy man, who is also financially stable, who can make her laugh, who has also found business success. What does she have to offer in return? Sloppy seconds and a child from another man.
Let me highlight this as well, she considers HERSELF attractive but money says that OPINION was formed from her own selfish tendencies and her friends gassing her up.
She goes on to talk about how the only men that approach her are “too geeky” and “not attractive enough”, yet I say again, what does she offer to a man? Nothing. She wants a Christian Grey but can’t accept that, that man is a one in a million and would rather have ANYONE else than a 34 year old mother with another man’s child.
She “desires” to have a “princess day” because she’s selfish, she only cares about herself, even though she has a kid, it’s all about me me me; which is why she will never find a man, she’s too self absorbed to put aside her own self inflated ego for more than 10 minutes to see her situation as what it really is, her own fault.
Steve says
Vino. Please don’t think you have to hold anything back. Let us know how you feel.
vino says
She is asking why there are a dearth of cute, stable, successful, funny, interesting guys for her. Perhaps it has to do with her, not them. Evan is far more diplomatic than I, to be sure. I am pointing out obvious issues I see as a guy evaluating a woman as marriage material. I’m pointing out issues an intelligent guy would look at before deciding to legally get tied up with this person via marriage.
TMan says
I agree with Vino 100%. He’s blunt, but spot on.
Also, Paula, you sound desperate. I’m just trying to be honest, girl.
“I SO desire to get married within the next couple of years or so”
“I would like to have my “princess day” of getting married before I go completely gray and I look too old” [I would never go out with any woman who calls it a “princess day”]
” I am also very worried that if I don’t get married soon enough while my baby is young, she will never have a father figure”
Paula, in addition to your desire to get married yesterday (which I can guarantee you most guys are finding a turn off, whether you are hiding it or not), the child is scaring lots of guys off. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to be a single mother. I wish you the best of luck. But you have to be realistic: the child is going to be a deal-breaker for 99.99% of the cute, funny, successful guys that don’t already have kids.
My suggestion would be to look for men that have kids already. Are there dating sites for parents? There has to be. Also, you should really look closer at the guys who ARE going out with you. Are you being too harsh on them?
PS: Before I get accused of being a misogynist, let me say that lots of guys have way too strict guidelines for dating, too.
Steve says
TMan wrote:
My suggestion would be to look for men that have kids already. Are there dating sites for parents? There has to be. Also, you should really look closer at the guys who ARE going out with you. Are you being too harsh on them?
This is constructive advice and answering her question.
PS: Before I get accused of being a misogynist, let me say that lots of guys have way too strict guidelines for dating, too.
Misogyny is fearing or hating women. I don’t see expressing the truth that single,attracive, childless and stable men would prefer the same in women plus to be misogynistic.
Chris says
I am a man who loves children, but will not date a woman with a child with a living father.
In my life I’ve been such a nice guy that people have taken advantage of me. People have used me for all kinds of things. I don’t want to be used as poor kid’s father figure or financial support.
Paula dated a jerk, and now someone like me is expected to take responsibility for the jerk’s mistake? I’m sorry Paula, but it’s too late. You can’t use a flashy guy for the baby making and then expect a nice, soft guy to be there for the parenting.
Say I become a stepdad . . . I put in time, love, and money into my stepkids . . . the wife and I get divorced . . . the stepchild is nothing to me now.
If the woman were a widow or if I had my own children it would be different, but I’m sorry, I don’t want to date someone who has that much more baggage than I have.
Simone says
In Vino veritass. 🙂
Steve, you make me laugh!
But y’all must be really young. Paula is 34. People in their 30s, men and women, have children. That’s the main decade for raising them. So she’ll find lots of guys –never married, divorced, separated–who are willing to consider a relationship with a woman with a child. It’s more complicated, but when you have a kid (or are contemplating it) you realize just how complicated life gets. (Just wait till it’s your turn! Ha!) Beyond 30 you won’t find many people for whom kids isn’t an issue on the dating front, whether they already have them, want them, or don’t want them.
And since when is a condom a “backup” form of birth control? Keep dreaming, and good luck with that as a strategy. We’ll put you on the AIDS-prevention lecture circuit in Africa. Or in our U.S. high schools, where the rate of sexually communicated diseases is skyrocketing. (You must have been speaking with Elliot Spitzer…)
LS says
Compromise is a double-edged sword and requires two people to make things work. Each person brings something to the table and in turn leaves something behind. Choosing only based on your own needs is not compromise and that goes to the guys who won’t date women with children as well. Are they not doing the same thing. Making the same judgement?
LS
Simone says
Also, Evan, with all due respect to your position — there is another option. And that is NOT settling. Going for the “all or nothing.” Choosing a life partner is a big deal and it is much healthier and happier to be alone, I believe, than to be in a bad relationship. Our society is changing very quickly, and our intimate relationships are being strongly affected by this. 51% of adults in the U.S. are single. Only 25% of households are the traditional mom-pop-kids kind of home. Divorce still hovers around 50%. If you divorce or are widowed, you are more likely to be unhappy and unhealthy than if you had never married. More women graduate from college these days than do men. And last Vino heard, there were 11 different types of birth control available to women. (Other sources of my stats: recent news articles and the book “Singled Out.”) If you have a thriving career and lots of fantastic, supportive relationships outside of a conventional partnership, why would you jeopardize all of the good stuff for something not so great?
wildgingersnap says
Paula: Whether you’re looking for a job, a husband or a good meal, having time constraints means you are going to have to compromise. Also, it’s hard not to come across as desperate – even if you think you don’t – when you feel the clock ticking.
Personally, I know and have dated plenty of cute, stable, intelligent, downright amazing men so I’m always a little suspicious of women who say they can’t find any. They may not be tall, making six-figures or the same race/ethnicity/religion as you but they are definitely out there.
At some point, you have to look at the kind of guys you attract as the kind of guys you’re able to attract. If I were you, I would decide the three qualities that are most important to have in a mate, and then give anyone who is open to dating someone with a small child and has those three qualities a real chance.
mrs. vee says
Paula, I would have to agree with one comment above that you do sound disproportionately focused on what you stand to gain in a relationship, without balancing out your perspective by thinking about what value you will add to your partner’s life. But it could just be that you were concentrating solely on areas where you feel frustrated about not getting what you want.
I do agree with Evan that you should look outside your typical range of men to find your soulmate. To be completely honest, I feel most of my still-single friends have been limiting themselves with disastrously superficial criteria. These are sexy, attractive, warm, funny women, mid-30’s and up, who are bewildered and, frankly, freaked out by their singledom. Still, they insist on restrictions like he needs to have a certain look or he has to carry himself a certain way or else they can’t feel attaction for the guy.
True, you need to feel attracted to the man you’re with. But attraction is a strange animal. A lot of people claim that they can’t help being attracted to what they’re attracted to, but can’t attraction be influenced by a friend’s opinion, or a flirtatious overture from someone who wasn’t initially on your radar?
Have you ever spent any amount of time with a person you’re not originally drawn to, but who one day makes an endearing face or tells a good story …or skillfully takes command of a situation and, suddenly, a crush is born? Those’re examples of how attraction can unconsciously develop independent of the instant swoon effect or any running checklist you may keep in your head.
Experiences and inner values inform what we’re attacted to. Those two things aren’t static, so why should what you’re attracted to be forever unchanging?
I think you’d be doing yourself a favor by keeping an open mind about whom you date. Good luck!
Markus says
Wow.
mrs. vee says
And back to the topic of my single, hard-to-please girlfriends – not that I think this is necessarily Paula – but the common mistake I see among them is that, in evaluating a man as dating material, each one judges a guy from the standpoint of “what it looks like” to a third party to be with him, fixating on his outward appearance or what his job will sound like when introducing him around. They begin to confuse external opinions with the things that are genuinely important to them, often sacrificing deeply held values for the sake of a positive fa ade.
For them, a relationship serves the dual purpose of validating their self-esteem, in addition to fulfilling the basic human need for togetherness. And that’s where it becomes tough to find Mr. Right. Locating a decent, reasonably attractive partner with whom you could really find happiness and come to love? That’s a whole lot easier if the guy doesn’t have to solve your insecurities too.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Also, to someone else’s point above about how desperation is detectable and a turn-off, even if a woman is trying to hide it, that is true. But let’s face it, it’s tough not to feel a sense of urgency when you feel there are biological and societal imperatives making you feel like you failed if not paired off by a certain time.
A woman isn’t wrong for feeling afraid of ending up single or alone. That said, she does need to master that fear. That’s why I am a huge advocate of practicing yoga. I know that sounds like it came out of nowhere. What does yoga have to do with finding love, right?
Well, yoga teaches you to be calm even when doing something extremely difficult or uncomfortable. If you are a woman who is freaked out by the incessant ticking of her clock along with the seemingly scorched earth of the dating scene, try this: Go to any non-restorative yoga class. Move into a challenging pose (under your teacher’s guidance, of course) and then just breathe. Keep your face soft while you’re asking your body to endure the challenge. Accept your body’s limits and be open to any eventuality.
Right there is the best approximation I can offer for how a woman should approach her romantic life if she’s feeling anxious about it. That’s how one “rehearses” making peace with a painful or uncertain situation. I do believe men can tell when a woman really belongs to herself, and find that quality very alluring.
A-L says
I’m surprised Evan didn’t mention this, but I would recommend that Paula see someone for counseling. The whole second paragraph reeks of underlying emotional issues that need to be delved into. Why is she bothered that she’s never been married? Why does she wish she was already married? Why does she want her “princess day” and why does she need to look young when it happens? Why does she need a marriage to validate herself?
Basically, Paula needs to figure out what a wedding and/or marriage represents for her, and then find a way to accomodate that within her current lifestyle. Building a strong social network of friends and family can not only help make her more content, but provide male figures for her daughter as well. By trying to fill the gaps in her own life, she will be happier as she currently is, which will also be more attractive to potential mates.
Kat Wilder says
Paula sure has it right when she say she wants to be married to the “right person.” What she doesn’t have together is what “right” means.
No where does she mention the really important things, like her potential husband’s integrity, how he views the world and his place in it, what he stands for, etc. It’s really great if that comes in a package that’s attractive with a good job and a good personality. But he only has the job, personality and looks and nothing else … well, I wouldn’t settle either.
It isn’t about settling; it’s about being clear about what you truly want. They’re not one and the same. And then you just eventually become another divorce statistic one day down the road …
vino says
Simone,
If it isn’t clear, a condom isn’t a birth control device for a woman. It’s for a man. I mentioned that women have upwards of 11, count ’em, 11, forms of birth control, not including abstinence or having ‘tubes tied.’ (Don’t know the medical term). Men have 3 – abstinence, condom, or vasectomy. So in brief, women have 11 more choices before even choosing to have sex. A condom is simply a backup to those 11 choices, particularly since its failure/success rate is much less than most other forms available to women. My point is if both parties don’t want kids, she is responsible for using some birth control form also, not just him using a condom (read: she is responsible for using it too). Using a condom in addition to (pill, IUD, depoprevarin, etc..) is the best birth control, if sex is to occur. I don’t get where you went with your final paragraph.
LS has an interesting post. However, her point about guys not compromising in refusing to date women with kids from other men may be true, but I think it isn’t. It’s only true for women who refuse to date men with kids (apples to apples) & no other comparison is valid. The same reasons apply o each sex – becoming the new de facto father (or mother if roles reversed), paying for someone else’s responsibility (Paula’s ex), becoming legally obligated to the child – all of these things are factors in deciding not to marry someone with children from another man or woman. Not to mention that in the dating phase, many people do not want their social lives to revolve around someone else’s child’s soccer practice, band practice, etc….
lorelei says
Vino-sity was right about one thing: if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, she should take birth control into her own hands and take her own precautions. In that sense, a condom could be considered a Tier 2 level of protection.
Single Mom Seeking says
Paula,
This advice is coming from the single mom of a seven-year-old… and I’ve been parenting on my own — like you — since she was seven months old.
Please, please try to separate your need for a romantic, loving, committed partner from your need for a male role model for your daughter. Male role models are out there, and as you say, it’s important to find them for your daughter. How about her Grandpa? an uncle?… She can play a sport. She can take karate.
Try to separate your daughter’s needs from your own. Once you do that, maybe you’ll begin to attract different men. I’d love to hear what happens! Wishing you the best.
Steve says
Simone;
I am actually older than Paula. I am finding many women Paula’s age who have never been married and who are childless.
Paula and I are in within each others age range for dating.
If I got to know somebody who turned out to be a wonderful human being who happened to have kids, I wouldn’t let having kids stop me from having a relationship with her.
However, if I am meeting new people from scratch, I will choose the cute petite 30 something without children over the cute petite 30 something with children.
A woman with a child has responsibilities that (rightfully) come first. Less time and attention available for me.
I take it for granted that women who would be a match for me would consider creating a new life to be a very big deal. That means a woman who exercised reasonable judgment before entering a committed long term relationship which lasted several years before a child was born and was a good enough fit to last a number of years after the child’s birth.
When I come across a single woman with a very YOUNG child that tells me such a quality relationship did not exist and that is likely a reflection of the woman’s judgment.
That will not be true for everyone, but as has been mentioned by both genders on this blog ad nausea single people use “profiling” to avoid getting entangled with people who are not right for them.
Jennifer says
I’m with you on your last point Vino. For people who are early-mid thirties and do not have children, i think they are often looking for the same in their mates. As people have been getting married later, they’ve also been having kids later so i think it’s very reasonable to be dating at 30 and not expect everyone to have kids already. That said, I agree with earlier advice that Paula would fare better by looking to date other single fathers.
Steve says
Chris;
Paula mentioned that she is looking for the “full package”, not just a meal ticket and Ken doll for a father. I found your point about avoiding single moms with living fathers of their children insightful. I am going to file that away for my own filters. I am only going to add the exception of single mom’s with responsible ex’s who are still involved with their children.
Markus;
I’ve known men who love kids in general, beyond just their own. They are good people without exception. I hope you find what you are looking for.
Steve says
Paula;
I would not “settle”.
Many couples have a baby hoping that being parents will bolster a lackluster relationship. It never turns out that way. Weak relationships always stay weak relationships.
The only thing will change that is if the people change.
I do think many women ( okay, some men too ) are being perfectionists. In addition to TMAN’s suggestion I would like suggest that you investigate if that applies to you and if it does that you work on it.
Please do not settle. There might be a germ of truth in what Simone had to say that you and your child will better off alone, then alone after a failed relationship. However, if after working on yourself if you truly appreciate who has everything else you are looking for but who is a B, B-, C+ or C as far as looks go then I would say be flexible.
Steve says
My apology to everyone for being chatty today.
I read in the news last week that 1/3 of American teenagers have veneral disease. Please keep condoms in mind, even if getting pregnant without them isn’t an issue.
Steve says
Markus;
In regard to mrs. vee’s posts #12 & #14, I agree with you. “Wow”.
If Evan ever needs to take an extended brake from this blog… say to do the deed to become a NONsingle dating expert, then I think he has a substitute he can trust.
Great advice mrs. vee. I think there is a reason why are you mrs. vee instead of miss vee 🙂
Markus says
Steve,
My “wow” response was to the plethora of heartless “your child is an albatross around your neck” posts.
vino says
Vino-sity?
BeenThruTheWars says
All the discussion of birth control is very interesting and for the most part true, but doesn’t address the real fact at hand, which is that Paula DOES have a child. I can’t imagine it’s helpful to Paula preach at length about shoulda woulda coulda at this point. Can you?
I agree that her criteria for a mate sound narcissistic (all what she wants and needs, rather than what she has to offer someone else); and that her restrictions are too cumbersome to be practical.
Paula, ideally we will all find a mate whom we can connect with on a physical/sexual level, an intellectual level, and a spiritual level. Those are the big three. Many people settle for two out of three (marrying someone less well-educated, say, and getting their intellectual stimulation at work) and have perfectly happy, functional marriages. Or they find a best friend they can really connect with on a wavelength basis, but maybe the sex isn’t all that stellar. Only you can decide what your true deal-breakers are. If sex and physical attraction is the most important thing for you, fine. Though I will warn you, once the heat and chemistry start waning after a year, year and a half — which they inevitably do in any monogamous relationship — you’d better like the person you’re with or you’ll be in trouble. Also, and I’ve said this before in my posts: the man you are instantly and powerfully attracted to is the one you should run away from the fastest. You are reacting to your fantasy of who the man is, instead of who he really is (which you can’t have a clue about until you spend months together in an exclusive relationship). That’s why a lot of people will tell you that if you are seriously looking for a life partner as opposed to a fling, you will give the men you are NOT instantly attracted to a chance.
I like the advice about finding other men with young children to date. They will be much more accepting of your child and expect you to reciprocate. A widower with kids would be, in my opinion, a better bet than one paying child support and alimony to a living ex. One caveat: divorced dads, unless they are deadbeats, they will be strapped for cash until the child(ren) is 18, and then beyond, as many divorce and custody decrees stipulate the noncustodial parent is responsible for at least part of college expenses.
Have you tried Parents Without Partners? It’s a social organization that has regular meetups, some just for the single adults, some that include the kids. A lot of people with kids swear by it. There are similar organizations out there with much the same mission.
There are men out there who won’t consider dating you because of what they consider to be your baggage (a child). There are also men out there who adore kids and are mature enough to be open to the idea of a blended family. Bottom line, your position has to be, “Love me, love my kid.” THAT is the one area in which you should never, ever settle for less.
Simone says
Vino: If you want to leave your reproductive fate in the ahem — hands– of the woman you are dating (seemingly without commitment, from your posts) go right ahead. But legally you are responsible for any child you father. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. And check your stats on the effectiveness of condoms. I believe you are off there. My last paragraph was regarding Evan’s suggestion that women “settle.” That isn’t the only option — anyone who so chooses can remain single and have a healthy, happy, sex-filled life. It’s more the norm now than ever before (in U.S.)
Steve: No offense, but that’s you. A lot of guys who are single parents prefer women in their same situation. A lot don’t. There’s room for everybody.
vino says
BeenThrough made the point regarding “shoulda woulda coulda at this point.” It’s absolutely relevant. Evaluating someone else’s choices and more importantly, whether they’ve learned from those choices, particularly regarding children, is vitally important in whether to be involved with them. Fine, Paula has her child. It is fair to say that the decisions surrounding conception, her ex’s role and uninvolvement are flawed, at best. Her blaming of the ex indicates no acceptance of responsibility, let alone learning from these decisions. As someone evaluating whether to date her, it is therefore vital to look at her decision-making process for this, particularly since she’s looking suitors to take on that daddy role, and deal with the consequences of her previous and future decisions.
Simone: Where did I say I wanted “to leave your reproductive fate in the ahem hands of the woman you are dating”??? Answer is I didn’t. your crack regarding “without commitment” is also non-existent, and a cheap shot.
You are right though – “But legally you are responsible for any child you father.” The problem is that it IS in the hands of the woman. All a guy can do is to wrap it up and/or have a vasectomy. She can lie and say she’s on birth control, she can choose to forget to take her pill, all manner of things. The guy who wraps it up, but is lied to about her birth control methods is screwed. To bring it back to legal terms, it’s fraud. Of course, only in this area is someone compensated for defrauding someone else. I could say more, but why bother? I’ve already pointed out how women have more choices at every reproductive stage, so I won’t repeat them…
As a guy, if you don’t want kids, I believe you have to be up-front about it and tell she’s absolutely on her own, prior to sex, if she gets pregnant. Now the guy who is using a condom every time is also saying he doesn’t want kids. I’ve heard Tom Lykis say that women who don’t use birth control want to get pregnant, because they want to have a child, but have someone else pay for it (or help pay for it). I think there’s some truth to that.
These ‘accidents’ don’t just happen.
FYI – I looked up the success/failure rates – I am correct in that the methods available to women are far more effective than men, so you’re wrong in challenging those assertions.
Norplant – 0.09% pregnancy rate; or 99.91% effective
Depo Prov – 0.3% preg rate; or 99.7% effective
Pill – 5% preg rate; or 95% effective
IUDs – 0.8-2%; or 98-99.2% effective
Condoms – 14% preg rate; or 86% effective
This all comes back to the decision-making process for the people you are dating. If he/she makes questionable decisions regarding such large matters, you have to weigh whether you should date, let alone, marry them. For you will then have to deal with very real legal ramifications.
Snglmm says
“accidents” do happen. I was told by multiple specialist that I was infertile and would never have kids. Men do lie about there standing on kids. My sons father said we could try ivf, surrogates, adoption etc if I couldn’t sustain a successful pregnancy. turns out I became pregnant before starting a treatment for my pcos, endometriosis and a polyp. As soon as the pregnancy test came out positive he gave me the option of continuing with the wedding or an abortion. My innocent son had no fault in this why would I end his life? that would make me as selfish as his “father”.
It was all a lie. He and.his family made it very believable. I’m not saying it’s all his fault as I fell for it but he did trick me pretty good.
And when it comes to having a “father figure” my sons father is out of the picture (he has my last name no dad name on bc never cared to know of him) yet I’d never ask or expect someone to adopt him. He’s my responsibility if my future partner feels moved in any way to share that I will love him even more for it as I know it’s a heavy load (brother adopted my niece while married to her mom and we all love her) but besides not mistreating him and respecting/ accepting the fact that my son Is here and only has me I don’t expect anything else.
Oh and I have a successful, educated childless stepfather who loves my sister and I. He’s crazy about his grandson. So men like that do exist.
Steve says
BeenThruTheWars;
You had two good points:
1. People come here for advice, not to have other people vent their own dating frustrations at them. Although, the information gathered from looking at those vestings can be extremely useful.
2. The now well known fact of the brain chemicals of romantic passion wearing off in about a year. Seems like the basis for a good rule of thumb. Don’t commit to anyone until a year has passed and you can get an honest look at them without the haze of passion interfering.
Steve says
Vino;
Thanks for the stats on birth control effectiveness. Interesting!
You have a great point. Part of getting solicited advice is having people make sure you understand why you got into your position in the first place. That is the reason why I mentioned my preference ( & those of other single childless men ) for single childless women. So that Paula would understand why the cute, employed, and nice guys may not be buzzing around her.
You wrote that you are not a professional advice giver and that you have no problem with being blunt. Even allowing for that it sounds like you are being a bit hard on her.
People make mistakes, big ones and dumb ones.
Chris says
Steve,
I liked your distinction between a woman who had a child in a long term relationship or marriage and a woman who had a child after something less enduring.
“a woman who exercised reasonable judgment before entering a committed long term relationship which lasted several years before a child was born and was a good enough fit to last a number of years after the child’s birth.”
Though it would be financially harder to raise a widow’s child, I think that I would be more likely to date a widow than a divorcee/never married mother. It’s not anyone’s fault to be widowed. Perhaps the children would see me as their real father, and not a stepdad.
If the father were living and responsible I *might* date the mother, but if the father were a deadbeat I’d have a major problem dating the mother.
Steve says
Chris Mar 25th 2008 at 12:42 pm 33
I think that I would be more likely to date a widow than a divorcee/never married mother. It’s not anyone’s fault to be widowed.
Chris, the divorce rate has been standing at about 50% for a long time. The way I see it not that many people can be losers. I would give divorced women a chance (find out why they got divorced ).
vino says
Steve,
I may be hard on her. Here is why – Though it does not explicitly state, her letter gives me the impression that Paula got pregnant without boyfriend’s consent, because SHE wanted to be married and with kids. This quote sums it up:
“I am bothered by the fact that I’ve never been married. I SO desire to get married within the next couple of years or so, but I want it to be with the right person. I wish I was married about 5 years ago or so. Like virtually all women, I would like to have my “princess day” of getting married before I go completely gray and I look too old.”
I’m connecting the dots a bit, but I get that nagging feeling she got pregnant to ‘trap’ him into marrying her for her reasons and benefit. It just smells fishy to me. If you couple her choice not to use birth control with her desire to SO get married, preferably 5 years ago, I think you have an unpleasant situation, one that Paula should understand is of her making. It’s also one that stable, intelligent, successful men would understandably avoid.
Zann says
Great posts by all. There’s a ton of useful, solid information here for anyone single, regardless of age, gender, with or without children. But for Paula specifically — I believe the worst possible criteria for seeking and selecting a partner is how they will satisfy YOUR need — not your daughter’s — for a father figure in her life. First of all, it assumes that the nuclear family model (a mom & dad, married, with kids) is the ultimate wholesome environment for raising happy, stable kids & living a happy life. This is simply not true. Sure, our culture is permeated with messages that preach this to us, but the statistics do not support it. There are all kinds of families now, and that’s a good thing. And there is nothing wrong with raising your child on your own, gathering whatever support is available from friends, relatives, counselors. I applaud people who choose going it alone over desperately searching and often settling for a partner to be a substitute mom/dad. Paula, forget the past, forget the blame or bitterness about your situation and move ahead. Be open to wise support, educate yourself on parenting issues, take responsibility for your child (who had no choice in this matter), and get in love with yourself. You’ll be a great, reliable parent regardless of whether you ever marry. Don’t depend on the “odds” or your youthful looks or the trends in dating/mating — things over which you really have no control. And being a parent doesn’t mean you can’t have adult relationships, including a vibrant sex life, but it should be separate from or supplement your parental obligations and with a partner who suits your intimacy needs, not your perceived wishlist for a second parent to your child. And finally, if you’re allowing yourself to be ruled by the unsolicited advice of friends who claim they want to help but actually make you feel like a loser if you don’t have Mr. Right on your arm, you’re going to be very disappointed. Don’t forget, those advice-givers go home at the end of the day and live their own lives, not yours. Good luck and stay strong.
vino says
Divorce rate depends on where you are
In CA, it’s about 73% or so.
Don’t love those odds.
Offthepink says
And the majority of divorce instigators are WOMEN, because they “aren’t happy”. Usually, it’s a case of the husband placing limits on how much of HIS money they have access to, so they try to whole-hog his finances all at one time with a divorce, instead of a long, nibbling. In other cases, it’s because she’s cheating, and wants to beat him to the divorce when he finds out, so, once again, she can rape his finances.
sunray says
To the people who mentioned that Paula should not “settle” because it is better to be alone than be in an bad realtionship have totally missed Evan’s point. When he says settle….he means (correct me if I’m wrong Evan) date someone who is 5’7″ (not the 6’0″ you require) if he treats you well and meets most of your other requirments. Settle does NOT mean date someone who slaps you around and/or ignors you just to say you have someone!
I agree with the comments made about someone in their 30s w/o kids not wanting to date a peer with kids. I’m a 30 year old sucessful attractive woman……pretty much the girl version of what Paula described in her letter and I would not date someone with kids. I’ve done it before and it just hasnt worked out. The thing with dating someone with kids is that it gets annoying (I know I’m horrible..but its the truth) when you want to pick up and go somewhere (to a play, restaurant, etc.) and you have to hear I can’t b/c I have to find a sitter for the kids, or I can’t b/c its my weekend this week, or I can’t b/c____(fill in the blank)_____ For someone who doesnt have kids this gets old real soon.
Anonymous says
I love how several of you (you know who you are) have been making inferences about what the birth control situation was in the case. I would like to point out that none of you were in bed with this woman or her ex. Vino- how are you so sure that this guy did in fact use a condom? He could have trusted HER ability to take birth control (which, in case you were not aware, needs to be taken at the exact same time every night, which is easier said than done with the variability in peoples’ schedules). This ties into your point about fraud. Yes, technically lying about being on birth control to have a kid is wrong, but your argument about fraud does not hold water with me because the male ALSO has the responsibility of utilizing birth control to prevent a pregnancy. If he does not wear a condom, he is entrusting the fate of his sperm to the woman. Is it wrong for women to lie about that sort of thing? Absolutely, but if he gets burned by HIS poor decision of relying on the woman to take her birth control precisely at the same time every night, to remember to even take it every night, etc, then it’s his own damn fault too. You seem to forget that your arguments work both ways. Also, you make it seem as though it is faulty of women to choose not to date a man with kids, yet when a man chooses not to date a woman with kids, it’s a very logical choice (as inferred from your little apples-to-apples comment)…how is this so? Women face the same issues (i.e. legal entanglement, etc.). This isn’t the 1950’s, females make are financially independent now too.
With all of that being said, I do agree that bashing her ex so much speaks to her decision-making, and perhaps her maturity too. You’re also right that is no man’s responsibility to support another man’s child; however, just because a woman has a child does not mean that the child is always the consequence of a bad decision. Just some food for thought, since you all seem to have such strong opinions about this woman and her situation.
Simone says
Vino: You don’t cite your sources, but if you look up the various forms of birth control on Wikipedia you will find the actual rates according to “typical use” (meaning, in reality, not in a lab, allowing for user error) are:
Pill–8% failure rate
Condoms — 10-18% failure rate (pretty close to the Pill, eh?)
Diaphragm — 10-39% failure rate
IUD– 0.8% failure rate (but not used much in the U.S. — strange)
Sterilization–under 1% failure rate
And, good news for you, since you are very into this: a male contraceptive pill is under development. That should alleviate your worries about all those manipulative women out there who are just so desperate to be impregnated. And the reason that I assumed you were engaged in uncommitted sex is because it’s hard to believe that someone would be so black and white about who should/shouldn’t bear responsibility for birth control in a committed relationship. Women get pregnant — there are pros and cons to that on both sides of the gender equation. If you don’t see how vulnerable women are b/c of their part in procreation…well…that’s just staggering and more the idea you find in men who aren’t very experienced in relationship. But that women have MORE options, so the responsibility is theirs is weird logic to me.
But if you are afraid of being manipulated and taken advantage of, you have options. You aren’t a victim.
Also, another stat: 25 million people worldwide have died of AIDS. If they had used condoms they wouldn’t have. Condoms are the ONLY form of birth control that both protects against pregnancy AND sexually transmitted diseases. In that regard, maybe it is the bst form of birth control.
Simone says
Oh, the other thing about the Pill and other estrogen drugs — a lot of women can’t take them for various medical reasons. The estrogen-based drugs can be very hard on some women’s bodies, and barrier methods are the only options for these women, should they choose to engage in sex. (Personally, I LOVE the idea of a male contraceptive pill — let’s just put all this “trapping” business to rest, shall we?) But as it stands now, women get to decide what to put into their bodies (which drugs, which penises, etc.), and women get to decide whether or not an abortion is an acceptable option for them. For millions of women the world over, it is not. This is not my political belief speaking here, I am just reporting, to use Evan’s phrase. So the whole pregnancy/birth control issue isn’t a slam dunk right or wrong — and this is the kind of thing that two mature people need to discuss when they enter into an intimate relationship. And yes, it goes the other way, too — let’s say you’re in an intimate, committed relationship and you decide you WANT to get pregnant. Nature may go along, or it may not. And you have no say in the matter. And you certainly have no say in the timing. (Just talk to anyone trying to get pregnant.) Human reproduction is a mysterious, quixotic thing, and if anyone thinks they can control it, more power to ’em. I would guess that most of us were an accident — or at least a surprise, given the how unknowable human fecundity is.
vino says
Anonymous,
I never said he did use a condom. I grant it’s possible that in their 30’s they never discussed who wants kids and when, but my experience is that it is unlikely with someone you are dating in your 30’s. Hell, the girl I just met, that was in the 1st conversation, and we’re not even dating yet.
Likely knowing the boyfriend didn’t want kids, Paula had many methods of birth control available that do not require taking a pill at the same time daily. Simply put, when several methods are available that are 98%+ effective that aren’t ‘same time daily’ necessary, she could use one of them. FYI, the info I got from the FDA site re: effectiveness included possible mistakes in usage of methods, meaning that even if Paula took her pill at 10 instead of usual 9, it is still a 95% effective.
So if she forgot to take her pill at the right time, and the 5% chance of pregnancy occurs (assuming she didn’t take morning after pill, as she should if serious about not wanting child). Why would she not take the abortion route? In effect, she now changed her mind re: having a child, something HE now has to deal with, because HER whim changed.
You are right in that he bears responsibility for potentially entrusting her with birth control. Men in general are stupid for trusting women regarding procreation because they have no control over the process once sex occurs, particularly if she changes her mind to give him a new life responsibility for 18+years. The responsibility he bears in proportion to the decision-making control in this process is simply very inequitable and unbalanced.
Does she not bear responsibility? Particularly if she knows or has reason to know boyfriend does not want kids. This circles back to the fraud argument.
I also think you misread my comment regarding dating someone with kids. It’s not faulty of either sex to choose not to date someone with kids for the reasons you and I cited. I think we agree on that one.
Simone says
Who is telling anyone to have sex? Abstinence is the only 100% way NOT to have a child you don’t want to have. After that is sterilization. If you can’t find a woman you trust not to steal your sperm for her own nefarious, procreative purposes, and you yourself don’t want kids–don’t stick it in or get sterilized. It’s really very simple. 🙂
Please. Grow up.
Single Mom Seeking says
I’m completely floored — especially when it comes to men like Vino — by the female-bashing-attitude here.
That Tom Lykus quote shows a lot of narrow mindedness. I love reading Evan’s blog because of the thoughtful comments… what’s going on today? Your tone of many men here is one of: this woman took advantage of this poor innocent man so she could make a baby, and he didn’t know what came over him… Excuse me, but where is the man’s responsibility in all of this?
Let’s see at least one of you men stand up, please. Show that you do have some role in having sex with a woman.
Delia says
Simone, I Agree with Simone!
>
LS says
It seems you have been rather busy since I last looked at the sight.
LS,
Vino,
My point was to bring to light is a non-gender specific point. I’m of an older age group than most of you here, single (never married & no children) and have been Internet dating for 4 years now. I have to say that well over 90% of the guys I have met have children of varying ages. A fact of life for me.
In my last job I attended my boss’s wedding. He had been married before with no children. They met at time where she was divorced with two small children (under 6) from a previous marriage. They fell in love and married. The interesting thing here is he wanted a family and she security. As the years passed I watch this family bond into one. The moral of my story is that when two people meet who connect there is nothing else on earth like it. The rest just falls into place and those things we thought we wanted are but a faint memory. Compromise at it’s best.
LS.
TMan says
@BeenThruTheWars [28]. You wrote:
“There are also men out there who adore kids and are mature enough to be open to the idea of a blended family.”
Please don’t confuse “maturity” with a willingness to date women with children. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.
Simone says
Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind here. Re: Vino’s stats that he says I am wrong to question (why would I be “wrong” to question anything? Isn’t questioning what intellectual freedom is about?) — the Pearl Index (referenced on Wikipedia) has different stats that put the effectiveness of condoms and the Pill closer together, and there condoms are not the “much less” (depending on how you define that term) that Vino promised in his initial post about it unless you are talking about the rings/IUD (female implant-type forms of contraception), which do have a high rate of effectiveness. But sterilization, which is also a medical procedure, has a higher rate of effectiveness. (Not sure why Vino discounts that method). But, too, an article from 2007 says that the rates of effectiveness re: oral contraceptives are now being challenged (i.e., “questioned”) because the incidence of unintended pregnancy has been much higher with the lower-dosage-estrogen forms that have become popular over the last decade.
Those lower-dosage-estrongen forms have become popular b/c they have many fewer (as I define that phrase) negative side effects. If you read the FDA site that Vino cites, you will also see the list of many negative side effects that can go along with all of the female forms of birth control. (The condom has fewer negative side effects, but I suppose that is a matter of gender perspective.) And the site also shows the only form of birth control that effectively prevents the transmission of STDs — the condom. And seeing as certain STDs affect women only (and very seriously — as in, making the woman infertile) and men can be the carriers without seeing any effects (chlamydia, HPV), the debate about who should be doing what to prevent what and who is “defrauding” whom takes a different turn.
So let’s see — acc. to Vino and his ilk, we women should all go out and spend the money and have the procedure for the “most effective” form of birth control (the implant types), suffer the side effects, expose ourselves to STDs, and (if we get pregnant), be accused of fraud. All for a date with a “my way or the highway” kind of guy. And what are we getting out of this again? Oh, right. His sperm. Sounds like a swell way to spend an evening!
Steve says
Single Mom Seeking;
Vino is the only man making the allegation that Paula may have gotten pregnant out of wedlock intentionally. Please don’t generalize to “Your tone of many men”. That only makes you as much a bigot as other people.
Markus says
I’m going to check out this “parents without partners” thing. Thanks.
Chris says
I think common sense says that we should date people who have similar desires for having or not having children. Sorry, but Paula should not have been with a guy who didn’t want kids. Sometimes a “Cute, Stable, Successful, Funny, Interesting Man” might not be someone who wants to be a father.
If a man gets a woman pregnant it’s his legal responsibility to provide financially for the child and his moral responsibility to provide emotionally. If he is a good person he should even propose marriage, unless he knows there’s no compatibility there.
If a woman has the misfortune to have an a*****e for a babydaddy, I’m sorry, I’m nice but not a saint, I don’t want to get involved with her.
If the father were a decent guy . . . . this might sound horrible, but genetics are a big deal for me. I want to be a father not just for the for the joys of parenting, but to pass on my genes. If the child weren’t genetically related to me I would hold back in many ways.
Steve says
Simone Mar 26th 2008 at 04:06 am 48
Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind here. Re: Vino’s stats that he says I am wrong to question (why would I be wrong to question anything? Isn’t questioning what intellectual freedom is about?) the Pearl Index (referenced on Wikipedia)
The content on Wikipedia comes from anyone who holds a Wikipedia account. Anybody, regardless of education or affiliation can get a wikipedia account for free. The idea behind Wikipedia is to have a community encylclopedia, where the community ( the entire planet ) contributes to the content. In theory inaccuracies are weeded out when readers find them for themselves, create an account, log in, and issue a complaint.
This works for articles popular to the internet crowd, but less popular articles tend not to get viewed as well as scrutinized as much and can stay in need of correction for months, if not years.
Wikipedia is a great place to start a search for knowledge, but it isn’t a place to find the last word or a solid citation for an argument.
vino says
So I just sat down with my coffee after a late night, and I’m greeted by invective from Simone towards me, which I find interesting.
A couple of points to clarify –
I’d welcome male contraception. I think most guys would.
STDs are outside the scope of the discussion.
Guys should use a condom every time.
Women should use SOME form of birth control if they don’t want kids.
Men are legally on the hook, no matter what.
I also find it unbelievable that sexually active women also wouldn’t have the morning after pill around as well as a backup.
Simone’s histrionics about about ‘allergies’ or side effects are, I believe, disingenuous. It’s as though she indicates women who don’t want to get pregnant can’t choose one of the 11 or so methods due to these supposed side effects or allergies. Is she insinuating that women CAN’T use birth control at all because of all of these factors?
“I’m completely floored especially when it comes to men like Vino by the female-bashing-attitude here.” It’s not female bashing. It is pointing out differences in choices and the disproportionate responsibilities. It isn’t wrong to point out questionable behavior no matter the sex, is it?
“That Tom Lykus quote shows a lot of narrow mindedness.” – I said there was some truth to it. Wasn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. Don’t misstate what was said.
“Excuse me, but where is the man’s responsibility in all of this?” No one said he isn’t. Legally he is, whether lied to or not. this goes without saying. That’s part of the point.
“Let’s see at least one of you men stand up, please. Show that you do have some role in having sex with a woman.” Please try and make a point, not call guys cowards. It contributes nothing.
More to follow…
Ceilisundancer says
Well, this has been interesting. We don’t know how long or committed Paul’s relationship was, or the situation with that. Clues can be picked up, and could be explored with her by a man who would otherwise be curious to know. Doing that, I think is fair to both, while I think making assumptions would not be. (Oh, and Vino, I personally am not aware of any birth control I as a woman am medically okay to take/use other than the condom and one other that’s not total abstinence or surgical. Really. I would possibly die within my first month or two of any hormonal one. This wasn’t the case years ago, but it is now. Yet, I find the BC conversation an distraction thread. I DO think that controlling for potential STD’s and potential pregnancy should be discussed, in advance, by the couple involved.) My former fiance, a man I knew since we were 14, a man who discussed wanting to have children with me, and I had an “oops” when we were 32. He freaked, unable to handle having a child right THEN. Now, almost 15 years later, she just spent half of Easter break with him, and her half-sister, et al. I do hope that the 1-year old that Paula has will eventually learn to know his/her dad, that the dad will decide that he does wish to be part of this child’s life at some point, even if now he doesn’t wish to be. Oddily, originally, I had strangers asking me if I wanted them to marry me, as in the swooping in rescue my baby and me. That was weird. Some guys, no, they either didn’t wish to or were not able to handle dating a single mom. Fine. Their choice. I agree that once one has a child, any potential mate has to accept that one does have that child. That is not to be settled on. The parent has a right to a life, including romance, while the child’s needs DO have to come first. Even now, with her a teenager, her needs differ greatly but the man I’m seeing knows her needs come first (as do his kids / grandkids). Many decent men and women are out there who are in a stage of life where having a stepchild would be fine, perhaps even great, for them. (Many even obtain rights and/or emotional connections that last beyond the marriage.) I ahve two dads myself — my late father, and my stepfather — it’s okay to have two dads or two mom’s. I agree that a single dad may be a good match for Paula. It’s helpful if the children are in similar stages, but not a requirement, just as dating a partner helps if that partner is in a similar stage of life. Showing negativity towards ones ex is not appealling, for anyone. I’m not clear that Paula’s worked out her emotional issues in regards to her ex, and men in general, or not. When a person’s more confident with herself, not feeling that NEED to be mated, she (or he) becomes more attractive. I think the compromising part is appropriate if someone is more interested in one goal, than whether or not someone is a bit older or “stable.” People get laid off of work a lot, however, can he pick himself back up, emotionally and financially, may be a better yardstick (or can she)? I had to laugh at the “too geeky” and “too old” bit. Being geeky is typically not bland, but complex and interesting. While it apparently bores Paula, I find it CAN be quite appealling. Oh, and I don’t rule out anyone due to age alone. Some really great guys out there just a few years older or younger, or more than a few. Also, there is no rush. Not really. I hope Paula can relax, enjoy her child’s younger time, and seek out other good male role models in the meantime, and perhaps a future husband and/or the child’s dad, will come along, also.
vino says
Keep in mind we are talking about people in a relationship, so it’s presumed there is some minimal communication there. If he indicates he doesn’t want kids at this time, she is therefore under a duty to also be clear with him and tell him she is or isn’t on some form of birth control, so he can choose whether or not to have sex with her, condom or no. If she isn’t and they have sex with him knowing this, he accepts the risks condom or no, because she wants to be pregnant on some level, not taking contraception of some sort.
However, if she is on one of the many available birth control forms and they still choose to have sex, the likelihood of pregnancy is reduced greatly to almost nil, particularly if he uses condom.
Here’s where it’s tricky – She stops taking pill, IUD, whatever she’s using and doesn’t tell him or even improperly uses the method. He still doesn’t want kids, and is under the belief she still doesn’t either. SHE knows the higher risks of pregnancy now. If HE doesn’t know, he can’t make an informed decision. So if the condom slips, breaks, and she doesn’t do morning after pill and becomes pregnant, this is understandably a shock to him. She, in effect, takes his ability to choose away from him. He’s duped, because he didn’t know and couldn’t know because of her actions. That is being defrauded and victimized. Only in procreation is someone who is defrauded still held responsible for the child. It happens every day. It seems Paula’s situation fits this paragraph more closely than others.
This last paragraph is the situation at issue. The lack of communication so he can make an informed choice is the problem. Why the static on this? I thought women loved communication 😉
Bring it back to the Paula, I suspect she always knew her ex didn’t want kids. Apparently she did. So knowing that, she didn’t take it upon herself to go find someone who did want kids. Rather, she chose to have sex with a guy she likely knew didn’t want kids. Take his role out of it for the moment, you have to question that decision, big time. As a guy evaluating someone’s decision-making regarding something as important as procreation, that is a hugely questionable decision. One most guys don’t want to deal with…
Evan Marc Katz says
Let’s keep it civil, kids.
And to be clear, Vino is not “woman bashing” if he points out something critical of women, anymore than one is inherently anti-semitic for criticizing Israel’s foreign policy. They can easily be misconstrued, but they are not one and the same.
This board is dominated by women, but that doesn’t mean that when intelligent men present a valid perspective from a male POV that they are doing anything wrong. If anything, they get attacked just for presenting a differing vantage point and this needs to stop.
Pointing out that women can hijack a man’s life because of a contraception mistake is not saying “Women Suck!” but rather, that 18 years of child support is a disproportionate price to pay for a bit of lust if she chooses to keep the child. Noting that a man may choose to avoid single mothers due to the complications is not an insult to single mothers, as much as an observation that people like to keep things simple and baggage-free where possible. Our personal feelings about these statements are almost irrelevant – Vino is speaking HIS truth. As Verbosity did before him.
So please, let’s agree to disagree without insulting the other party. Everyone should feel comfortable stating his/her opinion without being insulted on here.
Thank you all for your regular levels of intelligent contribution. You make me proud!
-The Management
vino says
Thanks, pop! Verbosity??
Single Mom Seeking says
Yes, this post is getting quite the response!
Thanks, Evan, for the reminder to keep it civil.
Of course, I respect any man who says that dating a single mom isn’t right for him. Thanks for being so clear about what works for you, and what doesn’t… Really, in the end, it saves us (single moms) a lot of time and energy.
In my case, dating as a single mom has not been an issue. Many readers have pointed out that there are plenty of single dads out there who want to date — as well as single men who find single moms very attractive.
As everyone else pointed out, I wouldn’t get involved with anyone — single parent or not — who is still battling with an ex, emotionally or legally.
Steve, I do appreciate your thoughtful comments. Sorry if I got a little hot-headed up there.
Alan says
I’m not quite sure why the discussion spiraled, presumably from half of a sentence in Paula’s letter, into a lengthy consideration of the benefits and detriments of various forms of birth control and who bears the various burdens involved in birth control and child-upbringing. (I couldn’t bring myself to write “child-rearing.”)
That being said, I enjoyed reading the various comments, opinions and responses, though I doubt that the birth control discussion will be of much use to Paula.
I’m a big fan of “compromise” and I think Evan’s advice is spot on. A lot of it comes down to priorities. If you highly value something (being in a relationship or having a child) and you’re too picky, your best bet is to compromise – tone down your “requirements” and see what else you can find. How much do you value success (being in a relationship or having a child) over luck (waiting until you happen to meet Mr. Right)?
If you’re happy with what you currently have, then clearly it’s not such a high priority and you have no reason to compomise. However, if you really want it, you may have to compromise in order to achieve it. Sometimes it’s called being pragmatic.
Sierra says
Paula,
I have been reading all of the responses from the various people and I have read your letter a few times; so that I might grasp what you are truly saying.
I am a divorced single mom to a little girl. My relationship did not work due to abuse. My daughters Dad does not see her very much. I wanted you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from with wanting to find a man to marry, and be with you and your child. But I urge you to do the same thing I did. I had to reach a point in my life where I stopped looking for that “perfect man”, and starting concentrating more on myself and my daughter. Being the Mom I needed to be for her, and not worry so much about Mr.Right. Eventually he will come along, probably when I least expect it. But what I found to be true is that, if I am out there looking for it; I tend to run into all the worng men. It is true what they say that most men don’t want to be with a girl who already has a child. But the ones that do, are far worth the wait. The ones that have a problem with it?? Well, our children will always be our children, and we will always be their mom. Men come and go…. So, why waste the energy on a man like that.
Be patient girl…You will find your husband, and a Father for your child. I promise!!
dadshouse says
Paula asked a great question: “Why am I having such a hard time in finding someone who is mutually interested in me whom I find attractive, who holds a steady decent job AND has a decent personality?”
Forget that she’s a single parent – I think a LOT of people ask this same question. Being a single parent just makes dating and “settling” on a partner a little more complicated. As a single dad, I know.
Why is she or anyone else having such a hard time meeting the right one? I think part of it is our technology-focused way of life. There are too many people sending their romance wish-lists to match.com, conversing online with strangers, staring at their Blackberry in a coffee house while waiting for a pre-arranged meeting. What happened to the fine art of engaging others in real life conversation? (I ask this while typing a comment from my computer into a blog to be read by people I don’t know… which just goes to show, I’m like everyone else.)
vino says
Alan wrote:
“That being said, I enjoyed reading the various comments, opinions and responses, though I doubt that the birth control discussion will be of much use to Paula.”
Alan may be correct, but I brought up her decision-making surrounding her child’s conception to point out potential errors she made, how they’ve contributed to her situation, and, more importantly, whether she’s learned from them.
Examining her role in this may lead to wisdom, as opposed to her words of “…a previous relationship that didn’t work out because my ex BF didn’t want the baby. I have never been married.” My not so subtle suggestion is that unless she really learns from this, she’s unlikely to attract someone closest to her ideals.
lorelei says
I don’t believe vino-sity or any other male on this thread is guilty of female bashing for simply stating a preference for an unencumbered partner. I similarly tend to shy away from men with kids, although I don’t rule them out entirely.
I do, however, believe that no one can say one way or the other what Paula’s situation really was when she got pregnant and kept her baby. , And to make assumptions about what she was thinking when she had her baby- especially ones that ascribe sinister intentions to her choice – is mean-spirited and does nothing to advance anyone’s argument.
I think as a blogging community, we should also be very careful to not put words into other people’s mouths.
As the old saying goes, when you assume, you make an ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’.
Simone says
Steve: Wikipedia and other open source sites are excellent sources of information. The good ones (like Wikipedia) cite the sources and the level of expertise of the source. I never said to use WP as the final source in a discussion; in the discussion re: BC I said to refer to The Pearl Index, a third-party source of independent research on birth control that is CITED on Wikipedia. Re: the FDA numbers — I couldn’t verify them. The FDA site I found was using data from 2003 (old in medical terms) and, of course, b/c it is the FDA, only discusses product research. Not all forms of BC are “products” on the market, so The Pearl Index info is more comprehensive and I like it better. My choice as a consumer of information.
Vino: I never said anything about allergies as a side effect. “Don’t mistate what was said,” to echo your words. But as the other poster pointed out, many women have very severe side effects to hormonal forms of birth control. It ain’t candy. Funny, though, how you dismiss this and STDs and the broader issues/uses of contraception as being unrelated to the discussion.
But kudos to you for always using a condom. I’m sure that you use it properly (check the expiration date, buy the right size, use a non-petroleum-based lube, hold onto the edge while you’re pulling out). If so, your effectiveness rating jumps to 98% acc. to all the data regarding “proper use” of condoms. That means you can have quite a bit of sex with any spermicidal maniac of your choice without worry — the failure rates are calculated acc. to the number of pregancies per couple in the study — not number of pregnancies per act of sexual intercourse. (When used properly, 98 couples out of 100 became pregnant over a year of use — who knows how many sex acts that study entailed? Probably a lot.)
And Paula, I know many, many men who would fall for a single mom who had sex with a fellow who turned out to be a deadbeat dad. Hang in there!
T Hatch says
This is a little change of pace from the previous posts. I’m not here to criticize Paula, or anybody else for that matter, but rather to make an observation that might help her in her search.
What struck me when I read Paula’s letter was how focused she was on physical appearance. Most obviously, she equates “chemistry” with physical (essentially sexual) attraction. But even when she’s not talking about a potential partner, it’s all about looks. For instance, the only personal details we learn about Paula are her height, weight, hair color, and the fact that she’s “cute”. And she wants to get married before she turns gray or looks too old.
If you go back and read her original letter carefully, it’s remarkable how little she talks about anything else (other than economic potential). Not even the familiar cliches like “just as comfortable in a black dress or jeans” or “enjoy hiking/biking/travel” or “love to laugh” make it into her post. In fact, we know nothing of what Paula is looking for in a partner, other than that he’s hot.
Of course, it’s entirely possible that Paula is very sensitive to issues other than the purely physical/sexual, and it just so happened that the way she wrote her letter created a misleading impression. But, as a general rule, if someone is given an opportunity to express themselves however they want, and they spend all their time talking about physical appearance, then it’s usually a pretty safe bet that physical appearance is a very high priority for that person.
So, I’m wondering if the reason why Paula is having a hard time finding a suitable long-term partner is because she’s making her choices based on a criterion that doesn’t necessarily have a whole lot to do with long-term commitment.
Simone says
Evan–I’m a little shocked by your POV that 18 years of child support is a “disproportionate price” to pay for a little bit of lust and that somehow the guy is the victim in that. What about 40 weeks pregnancy, 2 years of breastfeeding, 18 years (also) of child support, plus the cooking, cleaning, doctoring, mentoring, etc. AND the lifetime of stretch marks and other permanent bodily changes that the woman takes on. Getting pregnant is a HUGE deal — it’s not a head cold and abortion is not an OTC remedy. Also, in my experience, it’s the guy who is always pushing for sex, trying to overcome the woman’s objections, trying to score and all too willing to “flake” without any thought for what he left in his wake. Disproportionate? What are you talking about? Sex is serious business. The fundamental purpose of sex is not entertainment — a mere nightcap at the end of a cheery day. It involves three people — the man, the woman, and the potential child. It isn’t a game, much as dating seems to turn it into one. Women seem to know this — a lot of men just don’t seem to get it, though. This thread has been a real disappointment.
Evan Marc Katz says
Simone,
I’ve never said sex is a game. I’ve never advocated for irresponsible behavior. And I’ve never minimized the effects of a baby on a woman. This is all stuff that you’ve put in my mouth – and every other guy’s mouth who disagrees with you.
And you’re forgetting one very important thing – in fact, the ONLY thing that matters when we’re talking about the “disproportionate price” men pay for an unintended pregnancy.
The woman is CHOOSING to go through pregnancy, carry the baby to term, and raise a child. The man is not.
And if her CHOICE to have a baby and raise a young adult impacts him FOREVER, then yes, his life has been hijacked against his will. Is it a mistake if he doesn’t wear a condom? Sure. Is it a mistake if she doesn’t use birth control? Yep. Is it a mistake if there’s tons of alcohol involved? Most likely. Do most people want to pay for a mistake FOREVER? Nope. Not at all. And that’s what you’re failing to acknowledge, Simone.
See, it’s not about assigning fault to the man or woman. It’s about seeing an objective reality. Both parties make the same mistake, but instead of the man having a choice in undoing the mistake, the woman decides to have the baby. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. She has a choice. He has none. If the roles were reversed – if you had a one night stand – and you had to pay $300,000 for it over 20 years – you’d be pretty damn pissed.
It’s easy to think of this from only your perspective, but you’re only getting half of the picture. And if this blog serves any purpose whatsoever, it will be to illustrate one thing to every single reader: your point of view isn’t the ONLY valid point of view. It’s just your own. Others have a different life experience that informs them. If you’ve been burned by men, you’re more likely to find fault with men. If you’ve been burned by women, you’re more likely to find fault with women. And if someone disagrees with you on here, or anywhere else – try LISTENING instead of telling him that he’s wrong. Because there’s a REASON he feels the way he does – it’s not just some arbitrary whim designed to piss you off.
The same advice, obviously, goes for men who fail to understand women’s needs.
Oh, and by the way, Simone, unless you’re planning on conceiving a child, the fundamental purpose of sex IS entertainment. That’s why there are so many forms of birth control. And why everyone really ought to be careful out there.
Thanks again for your contributions.
EMK
A-L says
A man’s been out drinking, and thinks he can make it home safely. Before he gets there, however, he hits a pedestrian, seriously injuring him. He’s got one of two choices. Drive away, and let him die. Or take him to the hospital (or call 911) and face drunken driving and possibly manslaughter charges or a huge lawsuit if the man survives. Which should he do? He does have a choice here, in fact he’s been making several. He CHOSE to drink. He CHOSE to drive. And then there was an accident. I would hope that everyone on this board could agree that the man should make an attempt to save the man’s life and accept the consequences of HIS choices. The same thing holds true for a pregnancy. Yes, the men are correct that a woman has a choice to have an abortion, but for many they feel it is murder, like walking away from the seriously injured pedestrian. So though it’s a choice, for many women there’s really only one answer. They accept the consequences of THEIR choices.
A-L says
And Evan, I can’t resist responding to the last part of your post. I wouldn’t use the word “entertainment” to describe the fundamental purpose of sex. It’s a physical act meant to build trust, create intensely strong emotional bonds, and develop comfort between two individuals that also is a great form of stress release and physical euphoria. By describing sex as entertainment you relegate it to those last two features I described, when it’s really supposed to be the whole enchilada.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank you for making my point, A-L:
You write about what sex is MEANT to be.
I write about what sex usually IS.
Readers who complain about this blog are usually focused on how things SHOULD be. I generally try to report on how things ARE.
Far too much time is spent yelling at the opposite sex for not doing what WE want them to. That same time would be better invested understanding WHY they do what they do. And if you’re not willing to concede any other valid point of view other than your own, you’re never going to learn a thing.
Men screw up. That will never change. So how are you going to react in spite of that?
vino says
“It’s a physical act meant to build trust, create intensely strong emotional bonds, and develop comfort between two individuals that also is a great form of stress release and physical euphoria. By describing sex as entertainment you relegate it to those last two features I described, when it’s really supposed to be the whole enchilada.”
Respectfully, that’s YOUR point of view, A-L. Not everyone shares it. If you asked 20 different people to define sex (or its purpose) for themselves you’d likely get 20 different definitions.
“Yes, the men are correct that a woman has a choice to have an abortion, but for many they feel it is murder, like walking away from the seriously injured pedestrian.”
They also have the choice of a morning after pill. I’ve heard no response to that yet. Women also fight like hell for the CHOICE to have an abortion. I do not dispute that. If you fight for that right as a choice, and by choosing not to exercise it, you encumber someone else’s life for the next 18-21 years. He has no such choice, no such freedom.
Refusing to acknowledge this inequity does not further understanding between men & women. It does the exact opposite – it reinforces this inequity and hardens positions.
The thought just occurred: Does anyone else besides me see the disregard for men’s lack of control or unequal input into the decision to procreate as disrespectful of their position?
Analytically, I keep coming back to this fundamental point – Ladies who do not implement their own birth control (far in advance of the sex) and/or who are less than completely open about such implementation with their partners WANT to have a child, whether they admit it or not.
Why place 1/2 that responsibility onto someone who isn’t enthusiastic about being a parent? Why not accept the responsibility for the desire to have that baby and acting upon it? If a woman wants a child she should wait for someone who openly shares that desire, or go the ‘turkey baster’ route, for lack of a better phrase (It’s late). My guess to the ‘why’ is a guess and is getting far from the subject matter, so I’ll refrain.
I do like the analogy to a car wreck, though. It’s an apt description for the devolution of the thread.
A-L says
The feeling I’ve gotten from many postings is this: Couples like to have sex for entertainment. If the woman ends up pregnant then she should have an abortion, because otherwise the men have to pay tons of money but didn’t have any sayso about whether she terminated the pregnancy. This is what many of the men here think life SHOULD be like.
But as Vino, Evan, and others have said, if a man has sex with a woman (regardless of the length of their acquaintance or the meaninglessness of the act) and she gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby, he is on the financial hook for upwards of $300,000 over 20 years. This is a fact of life.
In addition, apart from abstinence and sterilization, there is no method of birth control that is 100% effective in order to prevent sed pregnancy. Another fact of life.
Based on these facts of what life is really like, it would lead one to believe that the sex as entertainment option really is ill-advised for men. Perhaps they should wait until they are in a committed, long-term relationship before having sex. Better yet, if they wait until marriage they’ll know that their partner is someone they love and want to spend the rest of their life with, and isn’t trying to use them by getting pregnant.
Simone says
LOL! Well put A-L!!
For some reason the idea that men should make different choices (abstinence, commitment, knowing and trusting their partner, using a condom properly, getting sterilized if they don’t want any/any more kids) in the face of the sheer number of women out there set out to ruin their “fun” doesn’t take. Because, you know, all we women are out here “choosing” to get pregnant. That’s our idea of “fun.
Eda says
A-L, I agree with you 100%
Vino, why doesn’t your logic apply to men? If MEN do not take care of their own birth control — especially when they have sex with dishonest and manipulative women — and use a condom EVERY TIME they have sex, then why wouldn’t you say that these men really WANT to have a baby too whether they admit it or not?
I am a woman who has never wanted to have children. So, you know what? I use birth control and I make certain that the man I am with uses a condom. When a man told me that he didn’t like to use condoms, I showed him the door….without hesitation. So, it really amazes me that GROWN men, men who presumably have some level of self control, don’t use condoms if they really don’t want children. Given that men don’t have any control once the baby is conceived, it seems to me that men would be wise to do everything in their power to make certain a woman doesn’t get pregnant. The problem is that these men let a few seconds (minutes, if they are lucky) of pleasure rule them. For these men, I have absolutely no sympathy.
dadshouse says
Evan, w.r.t. your comment that the fundamental purpose of sex is entertainment: Tell that to Jamie-Lynn Spears.
Steve says
I went to a gender politics debating blog and they started giving out dating advice.
Hadley Paige says
A-L writes: “Based on these facts of what life is really like, it would lead one to believe that the sex as entertainment option really is ill-advised for men. Perhaps they should wait until they are in a committed, long-term relationship before having sex. Better yet, if they wait until marriage they’ll know that their partner is someone they love and want to spend the rest of their life with, and isn’t trying to use them by getting pregnant.”
Perhaps (and this answer gets back to the original question of why Paula is having a hard time attracting a man who meets here “requirements”) a man who manifests the suitable qualities that Paula (and many other women) seeks would be out of his mind to date (and have sex with) a woman who has so clearly demonstrated that she is going to do what she wants regardless of the desires of the man in the relationship and have a child without his consent. I would never (in my quest for a suitable LTR) date, have sex with; or consider for an LTR a single mother. Why? On the biggest decision a couple can make she essentially just said “I’m doing what I want & I don’t need your agreement to hook you into 20 odd years of child support”. For a person such as myself who has his life relatively together Paula doesn’t stand a chance. I don’t care if she’s drop dead gorgeous and love to give bjs.
Selena says
A-L:
“Based on these facts of what life is really like, it would lead one to believe that the sex as entertainment option really is ill-advised for men. Perhaps they should wait until they are in a committed, long-term relationship before having sex. Better yet, if they wait until marriage they’ll know that their partner is someone they love and want to spend the rest of their life with, and isn’t trying to use them by getting pregnant.”
Yet another twist on the what IS and what SHOULD BE debate. Interesting.
Michael Ejercito says
There are women who asked where all of the nice men have gone. The obvious answer is that they have gone somewhere else, and they are not coming to those women because those women are not attracting them enough .
Michael Ejercito says
In addition, apart from abstinence and sterilization, there is no method of birth control that is 100% effective in order to prevent sed pregnancy. Another fact of life.
Menopause is also absolutely effective.
vino says
Eda: I’m not sure if you’ve read everything I’ve posted. I’m not going to rewrite it, but suffice it to say, you’ve succinctly misstated everything I’ve written. See above.
A few points. A-L wrote:
“The feeling I’ve gotten from many postings is this: Couples like to have sex for entertainment. If the woman ends up pregnant then she should have an abortion, because otherwise the men have to pay tons of money but didn’t have any sayso about whether she terminated the pregnancy. This is what many of the men here think life SHOULD be like.”
Here’s the salient point many miss – The woman doesn’t “end up pregnant.” She CHOOSES not to take one of many available birth control forms. She CHOOSES to stop taking it, she CHOOSES (intentionally or not) to administer it improperly. She therefore CHOOSES to put herself in a greater likelihood of pregnancy. To paraphrase, she wants to become pregnant. She then CHOOSES to tell or not tell the man she’s with about her contraception choices and uses. All of this occurs BEFORE sex, (which she also CHOOSES). In other words, she has made several CHOICES that affect his ability to make an informed decision of sex or not? If so, condom or no? She’s under a duty to fully disclose ALL of her choices in this regard. If she doesn’t, it’s deceitful. That’s how it is. Notice how her CHOICES affect his?
As Hadley Paige said, her CHOICES are the issue in whether to date a single mom. Those are absolutely relevant, particularly when she seeks a new ‘daddy’ for the child.
Selena, quoting A-L, wrote:
“Based on these facts of what life is really like, it would lead one to believe that the sex as entertainment option really is ill-advised for men. Perhaps they should wait until they are in a committed, long-term relationship before having sex. Better yet, if they wait until marriage they’ll know that their partner is someone they love and want to spend the rest of their life with, and isn’t trying to use them by getting pregnant.
Yet another twist on the what IS and what SHOULD BE debate.””
A final thought regarding this. It used to be (60+ yrs ago) that to have sex, a man had to marry, thereby making ‘an honest woman’ of her. However, societal forces intervened, and freed ladies from the horrible ‘bondage’ of marriage to do all manner of things (career, etc). It also freed them from the marriage requirement for sex. Remember the 60’s Free Love? (I don’t, but saw it on History Channel, lol). This freedom from the marriage requirement also freed men from it too. There are plentiful numbers of women who do not require marriage (or a LTR either) to have fun sexually. Another twist on what IS…
Steve says
Michael;
Post #81. I think that would have been a comment better left unwritten. No offense. I don’t know you. I just don’t care much for that comment.
naturegirl says
vino – Perhaps you should consider getting a vasectomy so you will be 100% sure that you will not cause an unintended pregnancy. It’s your choice after all. If you are so concerned that a woman will trap you into 18 years of child support, then you should manage that risk by either not having sex or getting sterilized.
Some vasectomies are reversible. You could also freeze your sperm for when you do choose to have a child.
To me, you seem almost paranoid about a woman tricking you into fatherhood. I’ve *never* known a woman to do that.
lou and lacey says
Not to sound like “smug marrieds” but we think many of you single folks do seem to get hung up on a whole lot of nonsense very quickly. All this ‘she vs. he’ stuff goes out the window once you decide for yourself someone will be your lifelong partner, wedding band or no.
(And if your response is that you’re not here on this site to find a meaningful romantic partnership, then the stakes aren’t so high and why are you getting so huffy anyway?)
Until you stop looking at relationships as adversarial…until you learn to drop your guard and trust a partner…until you stop thinking in terms of parity…until you recognize that making it work is a GOAL you must constantly work for, you will never be ready to fall in love. Sorry.
vino says
naturegirl wrote:
“vino – Perhaps you should consider getting a vasectomy . . . sterilized.
“Some vasectomies are reversible. . .child.”
“To me, you seem almost paranoid . . . I’ve *never* known a woman to do that.”
Huh? Where did I say any of your conclusions? I didn’t.
I love how I am paranoid for pointing out how, at every stage of the reproductive process, women have more choices. That’s a fact. My issue is evaluating their decision-making process regarding this as a necessary component of determining whether she is a suitable mate. If someone indicates poor choices (without learning from them) or a disregard for the partner’s wishes, it’s indicative of how I’m going to be treated. That’s how it IS.
It’s baffling how so many posters do not grasp this or acknowledge ladies’ greater choices in this.
Voice of reason says
Your past the experation date for price charming. He got off te buss back at the 20 year old hotties. After all who wants to deal with another mans genetic materials.
You have been traded in for something lower in mileage.
Get a cat.
Collins says
CelibateForLife wrote: “Only in America can a wife cheat on her husband and he STILL has to give her half the assets. Only in America can a wife be granted a divorce under no-fault simply because she is bored of married life. Only in America…”
As I recall from listening to guys like Marc Rudov, this also happens in Canada, the UK (e.g., the Paul McCartney-Heather Mills debacle), Australia, & just about every other contemporary Western society. So no matter where in the world you are, my motto is Caveat Andro–let the male beware!
lacey says
vino-sity,
you’re not paranoid. more reproductive control mechanisms do exist for women. you’re just overly fixated on “the injustice of it all”. fine if you don’t want to date women who’ve made choices like paula. I am validating your point, but furthermore encourage you to do as evan advises and move on in the face of reality.
CelibateForLife says
I am one of these “cute, stable, successful, funny, interesting” men that Paula speaks of.
Paula and her cronies have better wake up to the fact that “cute, stable, successful, funny, interesting” men have withdrawn from the dating pool because there are TOO MANY SHARKS.
By “sharks” I am referring to golddiggers, to formerly promiscuous women carrying an STD, and to serial divorcees. Yes there are good women out there, but with the prominence of “sharks” men have grown sick and tired of sorting them out.
The divorce and family court system also makes it a dangerous world because it is rigged against men. Only in America can a wife cheat on her husband and he STILL has to give her half the assets. Only in America can a wife be granted a divorce under “no-fault” simply because she is bored of married life. Only in America can a mother seize custody of the children away from the father through false domestic allegations and through alienation tactics to brainwash the children against the father. Fathers are tired of mothers using children as pawns to extort a lifetime free meal ticket aka “child support” with zero accountability that the mother is pocketing the bulk and using little as possible on the children.
Men are not interested in single mothers. During the intimate dating phase with single mothers, intimacy is virtually non-existant due to the demands of the child.
Men are not interested in raising another man’s child. We do not want to be father figures, we want to be FATHERS.
Is this any way unclear?
Yep says
Absolutely 10,000% true.
Richard says
Puala,
Here is why you can’t attract cute, stable, successful, funny, and interesting men.
1) Hostility toward men. Many of the replies here by women epitomize the very hostility that I’m talking about. Women ask why they can’t attract cute, stable, successful, funny, and interesting men. Then when men tell them, they get hostile with the men. The definition of an insane person is someone who continues to do the same things over and over while expecting different results not going to happen.
2) Unrealistic sense of entitlement. You say I want, I want, I want without being willing to reciprocate. Obviously you are expecting too much. Meanwhile you are bringing nothing to the table except sex not enough, unless the man is willing to vastly over pay.
3) Unwillingness to take responsibility for your own actions. You’re blaming everybody for your problems except yourself.
4) Narcissism. Obviously, your opinion of yourself is higher than the opinion of you held by all of the cute, stable, successful, funny, and interesting men.
In summary Puala, you sum up many of the reasons why many men today are choosing not to marry or are choosing to marry foreign women. The above trends among American women today are getting worse, not better we are now in a global economy expect more cute, stable, successful, funny, and interesting men to go else where.
Evan Marc Katz says
Fair points, guys. Please tone down the anger. It doesn’t serve you well in your arguments. You’d be as well-served to acknowledge and understand women’s P.O.V. as they’d be well-served to acknowledge and understand yours. Nothing is gained from shouting across the aisle.
With that, I’m going to Sinai Temple tonight to see Lori Gottlieb speak about her article on “settling” (i.e. compromising). Should be a great debate, and my girlfriend and I are going to be first in line to defend her from the inevitable attacks.
Play nice ’til I get home.
E
hunter says
to Eda,
Your post made me smile. You wrote, “The problem is that these men let a few seconds(minutes if they are lucky) of pleasure rule them”. I agree with you, on the “few seconds,” mostly, I have found, that, women that “know how” to prolong the few seconds are far and few.
Ameiko says
Vino hit it on the head but to just re-iterate:
She simply wants more than what she is worth and she wants it too badly.
Regarding her worth, we have only her word that she is that attractive. The petite and around 100 pounds does sound slim but if she is flabby despite that (and gravity starts to hit those in their mid 30’s)…
Men want, at least initially, youth and fertility- Paula is severely compromised here at her age.
She also has baggage- another man’s child with her own baggage- a still living father. This is dropping her value through the floor because most men don’t want to raise another man’s child- it’s counter intutive to the procreation of that man’s genetic code to spend resources, time, and energy on another man’s spawn. Heck, when the alpha is overthrown, his children will often be killed on this principle and indeed is a big reason why many children are abused by the mother’s new boyfriend.
As a sidenote, yes I do wonder as others have if she “oops” to trap the boyfriend into marriage and I wouldn’t want to risk being next.
Paula wants the alpha male, the top prize but she is not one herself. Who she wants can get someone 10 years younger, without a child, and possibly even with the “me me me” that she has displayed. Everything in her article is what she wants but not on what she can give beyond her fading looks.
Her time has passed her by- compromise and settle for the beta provider.
Obbop says
Count me out of the pool of avaiable men.
I am one of a growing number of males who have determined that life without a female in it is superior.
Many reasons for this, too many to mention here.
I don’t feel sorry for females wanting a hubby but can’t get one.
Too many females with their inane actions and inactions have ruined things for all females.
As others suggest…
try a cat.
settle says
There’s a re reason that a committed relationship is called ‘settling down.’
If you dont wanna settle down then dont settle.
Janis says
it’s called settling down because you stop looking around. It doesn’t mean you have to commit to someone you think less of. That’s not good for anyone.
Desperate people commit to the first person who accepts them, that’s what leads to so many divorces. Get to know eachother
Dittohd says
Sorry if my answer has already been covered. I just don’t have the time to read over 90 responses. So here goes:
I am not within your desired population of men. I am an older guy, but as a result, I am more intelligent and experienced than most.
As a general rule, intelligent men look for intelligent women. Furthermore, intelligent men look for a woman who they perceive will be a good mother to their children. Furthermore, while intelligent, financially healthy men don’t mind spending money on a girlfriend’s/wife’s kids while the relationship/marriage is ongoing, they abhor having to continue having to pay after the breakup, regardless of the circumstances. They consider that to be a form of slavery.
Based on your willingness to have a child by a man who didn’t want one, you show yourself to be a very selfish woman who cares not for the total welfare of the child or the man you had the child with. Your overriding concern was of your own desires. Bad girlfriend material! Bad wife material! And finally bad mother material!
The above selfishness would lead an intelligent man to foresee you as a woman who could very likely expect him to pay child support even after a breakup if the relationship lasted a while. The family court would most often take your side based on the excuse that it was doing what was in the best interest of the child. All that has to happen to justify such child support these days is for him to act like the child’s father in his actions (financially supporting the child is sufficient). So based on your past actions, you are now off-limits to virtually all intelligent, informed men.
I suggest you’ll probably have to settle/compromise by accepting men who are just not intelligent and as a result, don’t care at all about your unmitigated selfishness.
The success of a marriage between you and an intelligent man, in my opinion, would be so unlikely to last as to be totally ridiculous to even attempt. And since men these days are punished so severely in so many instances when their marriage fails, why would any intelligent man even go near a woman like you?
Michael Ejercito says
Whenever I meet a woman I might want to continue contacting, I ask her if she has ever been married and ever had kids.
Janis says
Their loss. They missed out on such an amazing man. Tell me when you come down from your pedestal.
sheseizereason says
As soon as anyone makes a proclamation like “too many women are conniving gold-diggers” or “all men are shallow, sex-obsessed liars” or ““, s/he closes the door on ever finding happiness in romance. No one could possibly be a functioning member in a healthy relationship with an attitude like that. Frankly, I find the pronouncements against the opposite sex made by some folks on this blog stupid and sickening, whether they come from men or women.
I see little point of spending time on a dating advice blog if you feel hostile towards the persons you want to date. Does anyone else see the pure illogic of it? If you’re here for dating advice, but if you can’t – at the very minimum – acknowledge that the people you want advice on dating are basically good and decent despite their imperfections, then I’d say you’re pretty confused.
sheseizereason says
Correction to my above sentence:
As soon as anyone makes a proclamation like too many women are conniving gold-diggers or all men are shallow, sex-obsessed liars or “(insert any negative overgeneralization about the opposite sex here)”, s/he closes the door on ever finding happiness in romance.
Hat Pines says
What about simply pretending that the people whom you are dating are good and decent when you are with them?
Let us be practical here, folks. Despite their flaws, other people have their uses.
settle says
Make your bed, lie in it.
Some people are reckless and foolish about important aspects of their life. Time cures short-sightedness. Complaining along the way seems to help pass th time.
She’s stuck, he’s stuck, with/without this, that and the other. So what. They done what they did.
At a wild guess, l reckon the vast majority of people are not inclined to such recklessness regarding the question of bringing a human into this world. Most manage to do a pretty good job of managing their reproductivity.
Single parents exist. So what. What’dya expect with such a higher relationship failure rate. Its been lke this for a few decades now. Hardly a surprise.
Jim Peters says
Well, as far as the 56 year old guy that wants a 35 year old woman. He can get a 20 year old Mexican woman that will fit the bill. I just don’t see a reason why he should compromise.
Haley says
Anyone, man or woman can buy sex with a hotter and younger man/woman. We can’t buy love or a real personal connection either.
Happy One says
Wow…this was certainly an interesting comment thread! What did one person call it? a car wreck? That seems apt….
Look bottom line here is ‘Paula’ is asking for far more than she’s worth on the marriage market. If she were a house she’d be considered over-valued and having a significant lien against her, not to mention the prospect of needing a lot of maintenance… In a buyer’s market that house would not sell well, unless the asking price were lowered to meet the realities of the market.
Right now the marriage market is a buyer’s market for men. This is simply the new reality created by the massive numbers of divorces over the last two or three decades and the swift changes that have resulted from that. Fact is the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women and much like the birth control thread men have very little say in the subject beyond being careful with whom they get involved with.
I’m sorry if this sounds cold. I’m actually a guy in ‘Paula’s’ age range but one she disqualified by her demand for someone not too “geeky” looking. It’s demands like this that cause her to miss out on finding stable successful funny and interesting. The sad truth of the matter is most men recognize their physical appearance isn’t something that they can “win” a woman over with, so they labor to become stable, financially secure, they try to be funny and interesting–only to discover women don’t want that in a MATE. They want the “bad boys” who will trat them with disrespect and make the women “earn” their man over and over again. Those wonderful qualities mentioned above, that the “nice guys” labor to develop? Women only seem to want those from neutered male “best friends” that they just don’t see THAT way…
I’ll bet if ‘Paula” were to look around her right now she’d realize there were several unmarried men who fit all of her qualifications
except the physical attractiveness standard. These are the guys she goes to after a particularly bad date with one of the “bad boys” who make her heart pitter-patter. These are the guys who are always available to help her out if she has a car problem or if she needs something moved. These are the guys she looks to for everything else BUT marriage.
In short, I think the problem really is with her and her rather unrealistic evaluation of her worth against her liabilities. And I’m sorry but to men having a baby IS a liability when being asked to embark on a new relationship with someone.
One thing for sure though is she should definitely NOT “force [herself] to be in a relationship with someone whom [she doesn’t] find terribly attractive and [she doesn’t] feel any chemistry with (whom [she] just [doesn’t] want to be “intimate” with?).” If she goes through with that insane plan all that will happen is she will lure some poor unsuspecting slob into a sex-less marriage which will end up in divorce from infidelity on either of their parts sooner than later.
–Happy One
Dittohd says
To sheseizereason:
“Too many women are conniving gold diggers” is certainly not an over generalization. It’s a fact. If that statement had read instead that all women are gold diggers, that would have been an over generalization and a horse of a different color. After all, what percentage of women in this country still expect a man to pay for her on dates even though women no longer are expected to stay at home and not enter the workforce, no longer have restrictions on the jobs they can seek, go to and graduate from college in much larger numbers than men do, and are constantly complaining that they want more “equality”? This is gold digging, whether these women wish to admit it (of course they won’t) or not. It’s so much easier and convenient to claim that the one who asks, pays. Right? Do you use that same claim when you go out with your girlfriends?
Just about all rational men, I’m sure, would admit that there are a few women here and there in this country who aren’t gold diggers, but why bother looking for them? The odds are so against being able to reliably pick them out of the crowd considering women’s propensity for spouting the tried and true politically correct lines during dating, why bother when there are so many non-gold digging foreign born women available here and overseas.
The availability of foreign women, the fact that more and more men in this country are seeking them out, and the fact that marriages to them are so much more successful on average, why would any intelligent man seek out a woman from this country? Only the ones who still think that the women of this country are the only game in town are still looking here. Don’t believe this? Three years ago, Congress passed a law that makes it more cumbersome, more time-consuming, more expensive, and even more dangerous for men to even try to start a conversation with a foreign woman over the internet. Ha! ha! The women of this country are definitely having more trouble finding decent men because so many of the decent men here are looking elsewhere.
And the shaming tactics women of this country and you in your post are so good at are no longer working.
Haley says
I’m one of those who are not gold diggers, but you sound so mean and bitter that I would want nothing to do with you.
What good would someone so negative bring into my life?
sheseizereason says
Dittohd:
My post was not intended to shame just one gender, but to point out the convoluted thinking of those males or females who come on a dating advice blog only to complain about the very people they want to date.
If you’re so certain that the subset of people you want to date are defective, but are nevertheless visiting an advice blog in hopes of dating them, then I still say you’re not putting 2 and 2 together.
vino says
Strong opinions….
Steve says
I think next to desperation, bitterness has to be the biggest turn off in the dating world.
I can understand where this comes from for both men and women. Often in life when someone does something to you ,it seem like you never get “your day in court”. There is no place to put that hot potatoe. When a warm body with a pair of ears even come close to opening an issue the urge to rant is overpowering. I know, I’ve felt it.
If you find yourself making the same negative comments about dating over and over again ( especially if they are true ) I think all of you might be better off in seeking help in finding closure.
If you don’t end up driving potential dates away at the least you will discourage yourself from trying or drive your friends away.
Michael Ejercito says
Are Russian women really that good?
I do notice there are quite a lot of Russian immigrants living within fifty miles of where I live.
vino says
Evan,
Since you mentioned your field trip to see Lori Gottleib speak, I’m just wondering if there is a report, or if it’ll be the subject of another thread? I read your thread on this, and curiosity is piqued.
two.can.play says
Ah, so you see, sheseizereason… Dittohd didn’t visit this dating advice blog with the express intent to bitch about all the women he wants to date. He came onto an American dating advice blog to rail against American women.
Well, congratulations Svetlana, Luigina or Noemie; this keeper is all yours! Just don’t expect him to spend a few Euros for your foie grasse without a grudge…
vino says
While ditto’s post is a bit far afield, dismissing the underlying sentiment (find good woman = needle in haystack) it out of hand isn’t any solution.
She’s point of, ” . . .if you’re so certain that the subset of people you want to date are defective, but are nevertheless visiting an advice blog in hopes of dating them, then I still say you’re not putting 2 and 2 together.”
Point taken, but to add to it, the blog’s purpose is also to educate both men and women. Pointing out that American women are gold diggers (his truth) and that there are foreign women available that do not share goldigging is as much education to male readers as it may be perceived as a gripe against American women, some of whom may also see it as educational.
BTW, aren’t we a bit off-topic now?
Haley says
Vinosity,
These foreign women are from countries in terrible financial crisis. Their ticket out is to “settle” for a less attractive American man who they are not in love with.
They get to send his money to their loved ones in the poor country who are needy.
I’ve read news articles of men complaining that these foreign women left them after they were able to get their green card or citizenship due to the marriage.
You don’t think these ladies wanted a man as attractive as them? They do, but they are desperate or plain gold diggers and need the American man for their purposes.
Michael Ejercito says
Yeah, it never occurs to them to ask why these foreign women would be willing to relocate themselves to America, instead of making a life with their own people.
Steve says
Michael Ejercito;
In your posts you seem to be doing something where part of your message is quoted in burgandy and floats.
Could you stop doing that? It messes up the text flow in other people’s messages.
No offense, thanks.
lorelei says
To speak to the point made by Vino and other posters, I agree that a man’s whole life can be commandeered by an unforeseen pregnancy/unwanted child, and yes, it’s unfair. While I don’t think it’s a just alternative to give the man any say in what the woman should do with the fetus that is in her body, I do think that child support rules could be re-examined to take the circumstances surrounding the impregnation into account.
But it’s tricky to challenge the current laws, to say the least.
I don’t have any expertise on the subject of child support law, but I believe the stickiness of the matter has to do with whose rights trumps whose. Once a woman is impregnated, her right to control her body and carry a child to term trumps the right of the man who does not wish to become a father. The man cannot pre-empt the child’s birth to keep from paying child support if, to do so, the woman’s body must be violated in the form of a compulsory abortion.
Once the baby is born, it is the child’s right to an adequate standard of living that again seemingly trumps the rights of the biological father to spend his money elsewhere.
A quick Wikipedia search provides better language and more detail around the basis of child support law in the US: “The 1992 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, a binding convention signed by every member nation of the United Nations and formally ratified by all but two, declares that the upbringing and development of children and a standard of living adequate for the children’s development is a common responsibility of both parents and a fundamental human right for children, and asserts that the primary responsibility to provide such for the children rests with their parents.”
In a nutshell, it is indeed unfair for the man who is compelled by law to live up to his fatherly duties. However it is LESS FAIR for a man to force a woman to terminate her pregnancy and EVEN LESS FAIR for the man to deny his own child the necessities of life which can only be obtained through pecuniary expenditure.
And it looks as though you will need to take your grievances before Ban Ki-moon and the General Assembly if you want to wriggle out of the obligation to pay child support.
Having said all that, I GET what folks are saying about how you’d have to question the character of a woman who would ignore the wishes of a man and give birth to his unwanted child.
Nevertheless, I don’t think we have enough facts to decide her character with any finality. It bears mentioning that we don’t know two important things about Paula. Firstly, we don’t know her moral/religious beliefs. While I am pro-choice, I respect her right to choose to keep the child if her conscience didn’t allow her to abort it. Perhaps her pregnancy wasn’t cause to celebrate, but she did what she thought best according to her personal truth. Secondly, we just can’t say for sure if she’s collecting child support at all. It would make the child support debate a moot point for her if she’s not. Some women these days do absolve the fathers of their child support obligation and truly do it on their own. How can we assume she’s not one of these women?
lorelei says
Vino
“Pointing out that American women are gold diggers (his truth) and that there are foreign women available that do not share goldigging is as much education to male readers as it may be perceived as a gripe against American women, some of whom may also see it as educational.”
Firstly, you don’t educate with opinions. You educate with facts. I don’t find that gold digger statement an indisputable fact as much as a negative stereotype based on Dittiotd’s opinion.
Everyone, please be careful with blanket statements on this blog; I think most of us are smart enough to know one when we see one.
Not only were his statements a negative stereotype about American women but also a broad misrepresentation of foreign women. Go to places like Italy or Spain where male machismo is a cultural institution, and you will find a strong sense of financial entitlement coming from the women.
Furthermore, don’t many websites that facilitate introductions to foreign women sell the American male by appealing to the common misconception that the he will be able to provide in a way their own countrymen cannot? Don’t most of these women look outside their own borders because they’re gold-digging in a sense? Forgive me if I’m wrong, and Dittiotd’s been wooing self-reliant, Sorbonne-educated bankers with long legs and strangely sexy underarm hair from across the pond. 😉
Finally, where does Dittiotd express the altruistic desire to educate anybody?
vino says
The goldigging comment may be best explored on other threads, but the original poster, Paula, seeks someone successful, among other traits. Therefore, that subject is ‘on the table’ so to speak.
If it’s his experience that “Too many women are conniving gold diggers, then they are to HIM. That is a fact for HIM. I might add that many, many men like Ditto share the same experience. you may not like the inference as a stereotype.
I’ve read other threads on here where it’s perfectly okay to post opinions in response to someone else’s factual argument, usually an attack on the factual arguer. Is that okay for others but not for Ditto?
Lorelei wrote, “Everyone, please be careful with blanket statements on this blog . . .” I thought Ditto took pains to explain that his comment did not mean ALL women. I simply paraphrased two.can and Sheesei’s comments to add something else.
Oh, and if Ditto’s comment does make a guy choose to ignore a goldigger or a woman choose not to be one, it’s absolutely educational and worth it’s weight in gold. No one need to express a desire to educate anyone as a prerequisite to post. Talk about chilling free speech.
Again, aren’t we fare afield of the thread’s subject?
jonquil says
You don’t educate with negative stereotypes.
vino says
Re: Lorelei’s last paragraph wrote:
Much of it’s already been answered in previous posts by others and myself, but I’d like to take the opportunity to point a few things out, as it seems maybe she hasn’t read all of the many previous posts, which is understandable.
“I respect her right to choose . . .what she thought best according to her personal truth.”
See Hadley Paige’s post above #77.
Also, you mentioned her religious beliefs. I don’t want a whole religious discussion, but I’m not generally aware of any religion where it’s okay to fornicate, but it’s too much of a sin to use morning after pill or abortion. I thought a sin was a sin, no? Or does she get to determine which one is and isn’t? Rhetorical question.
Her later choice to sue or not sue for child support is not on the table and is irrelevant. The issue are her CHOICES leading up to having the child. Again, see Hadley Paige’s post.
The rest of the UN nonsense is dicta, and a wordy way of saying what we already know and have seen above: guys are on the hook legally for at least 1/2.
vino says
I meant last paragraph in post #113. Apologies.
Richard says
I noticed that nobody disagreed with me when I said that one of Paula’s problems was Unrealistic sense of entitlement. You say I want, I want, I want without being willing to reciprocate. Obviously you are expecting too much. Meanwhile you are bringing nothing to the table except sex not enough, unless the man is willing to vastly over pay.
However, when other’s called her and the majority of American women gold diggers, many people disagreed. I want to reiterate all four of my points above, and further add that even tough over 51% of college graduates are now women that most women are not willing to reciprocate monetarily, labor wise (honey do jobs), support wise, or in any other way in a relationship. Also, it’s very telling that despite the endless college and career opportunities (and endless entitlements available to women) that over 90% of American women still marry up (marry men who make more money than they do). The expectation of American women to marry men who make more money than them is also a contributing factor that over 51% of adults are now unmarried (for the first time in history).
Dittohd says
To Sheseizereason:
>If you’re so certain that the subset of people you want to date are defective, but are nevertheless visiting an advice blog in hopes of dating them, then I still say you’re not putting 2 and 2 together.
I am not on this site for dating purposes. I was referred here by a friend based on the whining of the woman referred to in the subject letter. I have been married for well over 30 years to a foreign-born woman and in the case that I get a divorce, I would go back overseas for #2.
Why would any man with half a brain seek to date women in this country who have been brought up from birth by the media to be afraid of us men because we are all or mostly all stupid predators? Furthermore, women should have all the choices in life and men all the responsibilities. And men are responsible for providing women with all their choices and are responsible for teaching men how they are wrong and how they should change if they don’t tow the feminist-defined line.
No, I know exactly how to add 2 + 2. In fact, I thank God for entering the military in my teens because I was sent overseas where I met and got to date quite a few foreign women in Taiwan, Thailand, Japan, and the Philippines. What a difference! So much stronger, independent, feminine, rational, and they are not predominantly complaining and whining cry-babies who are only interested in me, me, me, me, me and hypocritical in so much of their expectations. I dated quite a few American women in my teens before entering the military and never enjoyed it. The experience was always a total drag. I’m not saying that all foreign women are the same or that there aren’t foreign women that are bad. But finding one that is rational, sweet, trustworthy, and enjoyable to be with is so much easier there and the rules overseas aren’t all so oppressive of men as they are here.
Eda says
I feel the need to defend Paula. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that what Paula wants isn’t unreasonable. All Paula said that she wants is a man who is…
Attractive (she didn’t say a drop dead gorgeous man with six pack abs.) Don’t most of us want a mate we find attractive?
Employed/successful — (she didn’t say a man with Bill Gates wealth…she didn’t even say six figures. She didn’t even say what type of job. For all we know, she could have meant a successful school teacher, bar tender, whatever. She didn’t say she wanted a rich man. All she said was a decent job.) Again, don’t most of us want a mate who is employed. Being successful and having a steady job does say something positive about a man’s character. It doesn’t just mean a paycheck.
Fun — she didn’t say that this man has to build his life around making her laugh. I really felt fun meant that she wanted someone whose company she enjoyed. Again, don’t most people here want a mate they enjoy being with? One with whom you can laugh and smile with when you are with them and even when you just think about them? Would people on this blog have felt better if Paula had said she wanted an ugly, unemployed, sourpuss? I think not.
Plus, for those who said the thought too highly of herself, this woman did not say she was God’s gift to the world. She said she was reasonably attractive on the cute side. I remember a few months ago, I wrote a letter and described myself as average and many people said my problem was that I didn’t have enough self confidence. So, a woman can’t win on this site. If you say you are attractive, you have delusions of grandeur. If you say you are average, you have low self-esteem.
She also didn’t say she was flat broke and looking for a sugar daddy. For all we know, maybe she wants a man with a job because she supported her boyfriend and wants a man who is willing to pull his weight….not carry her our support her, but be her partner. I don’t know, but I certainly am not assuming that she is a gold digger because nothing in her letter lead me to believe that she is.
She also said she wanted to have a father figure for her daughter. Is that so horrible? As a woman who grew up without one, I can understand why she would want to have a positive male role model in her daughter’s life. Also, she said her boyfriend didn’t want the baby, and for all we know, as soon as he told her that she split and decided to raise the baby on her own. Why some people have decided to portray this woman as such a selfish, greedy, immature woman with nothing to offer the world, is beyond me. How do we know she has nothing to offer a man? Maybe she is a great cook. Maybe she could make him laugh and feel happy when he’s had a rough day. Maybe she’s the kind of woman who would believe in man going for his dreams and would support him when no one else would. Maybe she’s the kind of woman who would offer to take care of his parents if they were sick and in need. Maybe she is great in bed too. Maybe she’s all of those things or maybe she’s none of them. But I for one feel a lot happier when I think good things about people rather than bad things — but that’s just me.
I really wish people on this site– and I include myself — could be a little more empathetic and kind to both men and woman who are just trying to find love in a world where it harder and harder to find that connection.
Mark says
Men want to be fathers, not father figures.
It’s another man’s kid.
hunter says
to Dittohd,
You wrote, “After all what percentage of women in this country still expect a man to pay for her on dates?”……..I have news for you, according to surveys done at Harvard University, 2/3 of all women are looking for financial stability. The book, “EVolution of Desire” by David Buss, describes it more in detail. And if you still don’t believe that, fly in to L.A., and look up a 70-year old sexologist/therapist/Harvard Grad, and tell her you disagree with her 30 years of research and studies on relationships…..hhmmmmhh..LOL!
jonquil says
Please educate us some more, dittohd, by citing the exact congressional law you refer to, that makes it harder to contact foreign women. It sounds too bizarre to be true. “Three years ago, Congress passed a law that makes it more cumbersome, more time-consuming, more expensive, and even more dangerous for men to even try to start a conversation with a foreign woman over the internet. Ha! ha!”
What prompted this law? A vast government conspiracy to prevent men from importing disease and/or unfettered Frenchness into our fair country? Wacky.
Btw, congrats on 30 years of marriage. Hope your next foreign wife doesn’t want an older man like you just for your money.
I was actually quite surprised to hear you refer to Asian women in Taiwan, Thailand, Japan, and the Philippines as stronger, independent, rational. Not that I think you’re wrong, but I always have seen those women depicted as shy, demure and obedient.
Finally I am curious: what college did you go to?
sheseizereason says
dittohd –
another man above your post similarly referred to women as gold-diggers. what made you think my comments were in reference to you?
tony says
Red-staters like dittohd need lovin’ too.
amanda says
I am a European woman and have seen American males attempting to woo me and the women of my country. It is quite pathetic.
Here’s a blanket statement for you (a.k.a. “my truth”): the American men who seek foreign women for companionship are spineless weaklings looking for women they can feel dominant over. Ditto’s appreciation of foreign women as “stronger and more independent” is completely disingenuous. Men like him are not looking for women who aren’t golddiggers. These men are looking for women from poorer situations in life, so whatever little amount the man has will look impressive.
They’re picking up golddiggers on the cheap, but make no mistake about it – the majority of foreign women willing to marry American men are golddiggers.
It’s so easy to look like a millionaire to a woman who lives on five dollars a week.
Too bad your dollar is not so strong anymore. If you think we Euro women can be so easily bought, you are mistaken.
Dittohd says
Hi Hunter,
>You wrote, After all what percentage of women in this country still expect a man to pay for her on dates? ..I have news for you, according to surveys done at Harvard University, 2/3 of all women are looking for financial stability.
Good point, although I certainly wouldn’t consider the above to be news. Based on my perceptions, you are no doubt correct that most women are still looking for financial stability. In fact, if I were to estimate the percentage, I would guesstimate it to probably be quite a bit higher. And overseas it’s even higher, I’m sure, than it is here in this country.
The reason I expect the women of this country to shoulder equal responsibility in dating and not expect us men to routinely pay their way is because the women of this country are no longer expected to stay home and rely on men to support them as things used to be quite a few years ago. This change came about at women’s urging. They now attend and graduate college in much higher numbers than us men. They often make more money than men in the same job coming out of college. They run many of our biggest and smallest companies. They can get almost any job a man can get. They are constantly whining that they want relationships to be 50/50. Is it possible that our divorce statistics are so high, at least in part, because of all the double standards between our men and women these days? Is it possible that every time our women are given another right at our expense as men, it breeds lowered levels of respect of us by our women rather than increased respect, not to mention resentment and discord between us? Ask any woman of this country whether they believe in equal rights for women and I think somewhere near 100% of them would without hesitation say yes. Then ask if they believe in equal rights for men and I bet a large percentage would hesitate. So my next question would have to be, then who should women’s rights be equal to?
What about foreign women? Yes, I have a double standard here but it’s based on the differing expectations of both sets of women. Foreign women are generally more conservative and most often wholeheartedly embrace their primary responsibilities as a wife and mother. I know. I know. Dirty words in this country. They generally respect their men and their role as a “provider”. They don’t constantly whine for rights and treatment that always ends up taking away from their men in order for they as women to get theirs.
Because the women of this country insist on the equality that they do, many men now expect them to shoulder equal responsibility right along with those “equal” rights (which in most cases would be found to be superior rights if we evaluated them honestly). Anything less breeds resentment and discord between the sexes. Hence the 50% divorce rate for first marriages and the 2/3’s failure rate for second marriages.
Equal should mean equal, in my humble opinion. Does anyone really believe that when women are given “equal” rights and then are allowed to pick and choose those equalities as though they’re at a rights and responsibilities buffet, it helps bring the sexes together? Does anyone here think that when women are treated as inferior beings every time a new law is instituted while at the same time the women of this country are shouting that they can do anything a man can do, only better, this helps bring harmony between the two sexes? Is it really necessary to repeatedly reduce the rights of men in order to truly treat the women of this country equally? Not in my opinion.
I have no trouble paying for every date with foreign women because of their actions, attitudes in life, and the way they treat me in our daily dealings. I wouldn’t for women in this country. I would envision the woman of this country thinking to herself as I pulled out my wallet to pay each bill, Sucker!. And I’d believe her to be right. I believe we should treat women and men based on the way they act. If the women of this country truly want equality, I say give it to them!
By the way, walk down the street and when you catch a woman’s eye who is walking toward you, smile and say Hi! to her. How many just walk on by in silence because they don’t know you and they’re deathly afraid you might grab them, drag them into the nearest bushes and rape them right then and there? Overseas, at least where I’ve been, a large percentage of the women will actually smile and say Hi! back. What a difference! It almost makes life worth living!
Does anybody here truly believe that the men of this country are worse and on the whole, more dangerous than the men of all the other countries of the world? Ask any foreign woman what she thinks of us as a group and how she’s heard the men of this country compare with the men of their country as marriage material. I bet you’d be pleasantly surprised.
Too long? Sorry.
Mattie says
Eda @ 121: I really like your reasoned and empathic gloss on Paula’s tale. Yes, there really is NO evidence in her story – which is, of course, necessarily brief – to support all the opprobrium that it has elicited. It may be true; it may not: there is NO PROOF, either way. Give the poor lady, as Eda so generously recommends (and as Evan is clearly prepared to do), the benefit of the doubt.
Amanda: yes, a lot of Britmales do this too. It’s risible – and, as you so rightly put it, “pathetic”. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.
As for me, I am not looking for a husband or ‘provider’. I cannot always pay my way (annual income is now less than $16,000 and no home), but I am prepared to do so where possible. No, I should like a GOOD FRIEND who is capable of becoming a lover and – even, possibly – a companion for the rest of our lives.
Too much to ask, evidently. Having seen all the comments about women on this – and many other -sites, I have finally realised how much women are hated by so many men. I cannot understand it – in spite of some terrible experinces, I do not tarr all men with the same brush – but the fact that it is the case horrifies me and fills me with dread.
I give up.
Evan Marc Katz says
This blog is supposed to be the FUN one with the NICE people, remember?
Therefore, I hereby call an end to this post. No further comments will be accepted. And no, I’m not kidding.
Enjoy your weekends. Detox from the negativity. I look forward to answering a new reader question on Monday.
Evan
Evan Marc Katz says
I wasn’t kidding when I said this post is over. I’ve had a handful of people try to prolong this interminable argument, and they’ve all been deleted. So please, save your breath. There are 200 other blog posts on here that deserve your equal attention.
Evan
Sunflower says
Wow Vino and TMan! Sounds a little on the arrogant side to me…..how’s your love life?
We are all human beings and at times, do not make the right choices in life. Or think we are at the time and later down the road it sours. Such as life. Live and learn.
Last time I checked it takes two to make a baby AND it’s not always the woman’s responsibility to take care of birth control.
I guess you could even say, if a man was “responsible” and didn’t want to MAKE a baby, of course he would have to actually use his head to think, he could take the initiative, ya think? OR not go down that road to begin with.
Funny how’s there’s two sides to life 🙂
lfl says
she sounds like every single jewish women i know in my city…
John says
Well, if she hasn’t found her mate by 35, then I guess she might have a problem. At East I don’t think her last bf was that guilty as she puts it.
She says she’s in the gorgeous side, but I don’t really find an only “five feet ” women very attractive or any attractive.
So, she wants a man with extra full package while she doesn’t have even the half package on her side.
I say, go be with those you have already been during these 35 years, nobody’s gonna be that fool to take care of your mess, baby doll.
james rogers says
I will explain what is going on here to the ladies. You are damaged goods. You are past your prime years and you have a kid from a man that you described as a jerk. You essentially had sex with a bad boy trying to trap him and it backfired. You like most women are hypergamous and ignored 80% of men while you chased the 20% of men known as bad boys and alphas. The bottom 80% as you call them did not just sit on there hands. They watched women like you. They worked hard and have good jobs now. They saw that you want a thug to excite you and that you do not value good men and nice guys. Now women like you and other older single moms and obese women think a good man will just be there waiting. The good men either became bad boys and thugs because they saw that is the man that got laid, or they are looking to marry a women 18-25 without kids. This is what the feminists will never tell you, I however will speak the truth. The patriarchy was not to oppress you, it was designed to protect you from yourself. This is why feminists are always complaining about male nature. If men don’t go along against their nature and marry single moms, and older women…..then a majority of the female population will not be able to have it all. A majority of women wont have a provider or a father for their child. Feminists made promises to women and simply didn’t factor in the needs and wants of men. I do feel sorry for your child as this fatherless life was forced on him. You the mother chose that man who didn’t commit and was a jerk. There were countless good men and nice guys that no doubt wanted to date you. You ignored them because they were boring to you. It is simply unfair for a woman to expect a man to raise a lesser mans child. A man that you spent the past 10-15 years talking down to and treating like dirt. Notice how there are countless articles espousing the lack of good men wanting to marry, yet not one article from a mans point of view speaking about the lack of single, thin, childless women under 30 who haven’t slept with 50 plus men all of whom are the 20% of bad boy thug men.
Evan Marc Katz says
Angry much, James?
Mickey says
Angry? I don’t think so.
starthrower68 says
You might agree with him, but all that you get from coming on a dating blog geared toward helping women understand men is some sort of fleeting, perverse sense of satisfaction. It’s just like the women who claim all men are bad. People will read your post, think you have issues, and still do what they’re going to do. It’s like you MRA trolls are drininking poison and expecting the other readers to die.
starthrower68 says
I don’t think anyone will internalize this and feel shame or guilt. And as an unworthy woman, please, yes pass me by. Why would any woman, acceptable and unacceptable want someone with such a low opinion of women?
mickey says
People can think what they want. Mock if you will, but the fact remains that there are any number of women who have low expectations of, and even lower tolerance for men. Yet, it is obviously politically incorrect for men to defend themselves. OK, I get it now.
starthrower68 says
I have no more patience with the extreme femists than I do with the extreme MRA’s; I have even LESS patience for political correctness. However, ad hominem shots at one group does not cast the one taking the shots in a postive light. It doesn’t motivate women to understand men anymore than the hardcore feminists motivate men to understand women. The aforementioned comments are not really a defense of men. If you want to defend men, you do better to be positive to make your case than to defend men by telling women how bad we are.
Julia says
Starthrower I agree with you that this guy is an angry, jerk who just spouting out hate but I want to know what you mean by hardcore feminists trying to get men to understand women. Who are these hardcore feminists, how are they trying to get men to understand women?
Evan Marc Katz says
Julia, find any woman who thinks I’m a misogynist and “mansplainer” for telling women how to understand men and make effective relationship choices, and you have your culprit. See Jezebel, Feministing, etc. Not every writer on there is as strident and misandrist, but when someone who spends his whole life working with women is told that he hates women, there’s a serious disconnect.
IMHO, MRAs and extreme Feminists are the same – blaming the opposite sex and failing to see the validity of their perspectives.
Julia says
MRAs are hate groups according to Souther Poverty Law Center, Evan. A couple of authors on Jezebel and Feministing are not. MRAs call for the extreme violence against women, including rape, assault and death. A couple writers who disagreed with you have not. Its really not a legitimate comparison. Feminists do not hate men and do not want to tear down men, they seek equality. MRAs hate women and want to dominate and control them.
If you want to call me an an extreme feminist for disagreeing, go ahead.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re maximizing what’s wrong with MRAs and generalizing all MRAs as the worst. You’re also minimizing the worst traits of extreme feminists, as if they are few and far between.
To me, it’s like the Maher/Harris/Affleck/Islam thing. Muslims can act like there isn’t an extremist problem that tarnishes the whole religion, but it does. Doesn’t matter if there’s lots of peaceful Muslims, which, of course, there are. The number of Muslims who believe in Sharia law, blasphemy, and are anti women’s rights are still appalling.
So, yes, the worst MRAs give them a bad name. The most extreme feminists give feminism a bad name. The only difference is that you’re a feminist who is focused on the evils of the other side without conceding the worst of your side. I’m completely in the middle. Extreme feminists hate me (mansplainer!). MRAs hate me (mangina!) and I can sit back and laugh, because I have objectivity on my side, not an agenda. The second MRAs and feminists listen to each other and concede the validity of the other side, there will be progress. But, of course, that will never happen. Very much like liberals/conservatives, for what it’s worth.
starthrower68 says
Julia, this is a bit off topic, but there has been more than one post on here saying how even consensual sex is rape. Just because we don’t know any personally doesn’t mean they aren’t out there. You personally may not have a radical viewpoint; but we can probably agree that there is probably an extreme element to any group you want to point at, be it a small or large subset. Of course we have different definitions of extreme based on our world view. I am sure that I am considered by most readers here to be extreme because I have purposed not to have sex again unless I am married. That is not an extreme view to me, but because such a lalargbut because such a large nnumber of the population engages in sex outside of marriage, I am something of an anomaly. But I digress, and this is not the point of this particular thread.
Karmic Equation says
I always find it interesting when men go on rants to bash “bad boys”, “alphas”, and “boy toys” (I’ll just call them “BABs” for short 😉 ) and the women who “run off” and carouse with them.
Who are BABs attracted to? The top 20% of the attractive women out there.
So basically, these complaining men IGNORE the women that BABs ignore, 80% of women.
If the 80% BAB-shaming men DEIGNED to date the 80% IGNORED WOMEN, there wouldn’t be a need to BAB-bash and there would be a lot more men and women in relationships.
Fix your own house, Dudes, before you go BAB- or babe-bashing. You can all be happy too if you all learned to date within your own league.
jeremy says
Normally I’m all for gender-flipping arguments, Karmic, but I think I disagree with you here.
The difference between the “top-shelf” men and women is that the women only go for the top 20% of men for dating, whereas the top men go for a much larger swath of the female population for sex and dating….just not for committed relationships. Hence the concept of the “alpha widow” – the woman who dated/had sex with very high-caliber men, and then “settled” to marry a somewhat lower-caliber man because the others wouldn’t commit to her. Rare is the man who dated/had sex with a supermodel and then “settled” to marry a woman he considered lower-caliber.
I have no qualms with bad-boys, alphas, and boy toys. My concern is for women who perceive themselves as having settled. They haven’t settled…they found their equals in the sexual/marriage marketplace. But they over-estimated their original value based on the men they THOUGHT they could get, and this over-estimation may result in a permanent state of dis-satisfaction with what could otherwise be a wonderful relationship.
Karmic Equation says
Jeremy,
We both know that men will have sex with a larger swath of women and that they’ll “offer” relationships to a smaller subset. The men complaining are usually complaining about that smaller subset with whom they would like a shot at sex, but to whom in reality, they would have to offer a relationship in order to get that sex. But they don’t even get a shot. So that’s why they bash. These men forget they’re overlooking a lot of women for relationships because they’re all hankering for that hot babe who had the hots for a BAB instead of him. See where I”m going with this?
Personally, I don’t care about the “alpha-widow” (good term, btw). She’s her own worst enemy and conceptually, she’s my competition, right? So I don’t care if an alpha-widow is unhappy if she thinks she’s settled when in reality she ended up where she should have been all along.
My point wasn’t about the alpha-widows. My point was that the complaining men are, in essence, being hypocrites. They’re trying to date out of their league and bash BABs for their own lack of sex appeal, when they themselves overlook tons of women who also have that same lack of sex appeal.
If men are the gatekeepers to relationships, and they’re not getting the relationships they want, then they’re targeting the wrong women.
BAB bashing isn’t going to get these men onto babes’ radars.
These “high quality men” (which I read to mean average looking, low sex-appeal, but good providers with good characters) — need to understand that “hot women” gravitate towards hot men the same way ALL men gravitate towards hot women. In this one segment of the female population (hot babes, e.g., women in 8-10 range), a man’s good looks/sex appeal is a MUCH higher attraction factor than in the non-babe population. (Exceptions: if the man is rich, famous, or powerful, these guys get babes even if he is ugly).
So if these “high quality men” (but NOT rich, famous, or powerful) really want to have a “quality relationship”, they should target the non-babe population within their own league. But these men don’t. They think that good qualities SHOULD BE enough for that top shelf female. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Both men AND women need to understand their own leagues. Men need to date women within their own league instead of in the leagues FAR above them). If he has money/status, he can stretch and reach above. Women need to know what league they’re truly in, by not basing it on the men who’ll bang them, but on the men who have offered her relationships…and accept that she’s not “settling” but water finding it’s own level if he’s not as cute as others she has “known” before. Most women’s egos can’t accept this. Hence their unhappiness.
If these men stay in relationships where their partners make them feel she has settled, then it’s a problem he can easily solve: Just like women should dump men if he’s just looking for sex, men need to dump women if she’s “just” looking for a relationship and any guy will do.
But here’s the rub, MOST women, particularly the overlooked 80% only look for relationships with men they find attractive. They’ll only date men they find attractive. Because women are picky. That’s been established other posts in this blog.
So if men target those 80% instead of the top 20% of women for dating, he’s going to find himself in a good relationship.
Men win the relationship game easily if they date in their own league. But they won’t. Why not?
For women, there is no sure-fire win in the relationship game. And most women won’t play the sex-game where she CAN win easily, as long as she’s not looking for a committed relationship (e.g., NSA sex).
Ironic, no?
jeremy says
Karmic, I have no qualms with most of your post. I agree with you on dating within our leagues, and knowing which league we are in.
Where I disagree is your statement that men easily win in the relationship game if they date within their own league. This is where the concept of the alpha widow comes into play. Such a woman IS in the man’s league, and she is willing to date/marry him after coming to terms with the fact that she has to “lower her standards”, and after years of unwillingness to date men like him. And, in the long run, she sees herself as having settled. Tell me – in that situation, did the man “win”?
I’ve come across quite a few comments on Evan’s blog of women who described their current or past relationships as having “settled.” Why do we never hear of men settling? Is it because only women do? Or is it because only women PERCEIVE themselves as having done so, when in fact they haven’t?
My theory on the subject is this – women see themselves as having settled when they perceive themselves as better looking than the man they marry, or when they perceive themselves as more powerful than him. Men, on the other hand, do not date women they don’t find at least somewhat attractive, and don’t perceive power dynamics the same way women do. Instead, most men “settle” to marry women who do not provide them with the emotional validation they need, but are unwilling to perceive themselves as having settled, since they would be shamed for needing validation (“fragile male egos”, and all that).
Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. So I agree with you that we should date within our leagues, but disagree with you that men who do so are automatic winners.
Karmic Equation says
” Tell me — in that situation, did the man ‘win'”
Nope. He did not. But he also did not have to stay in that relationship. If a woman MAKES IT KNOWN that she feels she has settled and the guy REMAINS in that relationship, he’s in the bed he made himself. In other words, he lost because he CHOSE to lose. Don’t blame the woman for that.
A man staying with a woman whom he KNOWS feels she has settled is just as stupid as the woman who stays with a man who won’t commit after she has made it clear she wants commitment.
They both have the same power to walk away. If they choose not to, they only have themselves to blame for being in an unfulfilling relationship.
———————–
“Why do we never hear of men settling?”
This is the reality with marriages. For the “average man” (e.g., men 6’s and below, not famous, rich, or powerful, but good provider and of good character), he can USUALLY marry a league up in looks without any power disparity in the relationship — and since men primarily rate “leagues” in terms of looks, he HAS NOT settled. So therefore, you don’t hear of men complaining they settled.
HOWEVER, *BECAUSE* men rate looks so much more highly than character, if they happen to be lucky enough to snag a their-league+2-woman, he may end up in a situation where she does feel she has settled in looks, particularly when he starts taking her for granted. There was a great facebook meme that went something like this: “Treat her like you’re still trying to win her, and you won’t ever lose her.” This is how men behave at the beginning of a relationship. But 6 months in not so much. Doesn’t matter if she’s a supermodel or not, men end up taking their women for granted more often than not. No more effort to make her feel desired and special.
I know you’re saying that the problem is when a 6-man commits to a 6-woman and the 6-woman feels she has settled. Well, there’s a simple solution. He should dump this settling 6 for a quality 6 who appreciates him.
A man owes it to himself to find a partner who does validate him emotionally. But unfortunately, most of men (particularly the complaining ones) are looking for physical hotties (who often have issues of their own, e.g., entitlement, insecurities, controlling) and giving up on the quality averagers (for lack of better term) who are of sound mind and spirit, but whose faces and bods are not as hot.
Men are the gatekeepers of relationships. If they target the right women, he wins.
I have no sympathy for men who target the wrong women. They have the power to choose better.
Men need to PRIORITIZE their criteria better before offering relationships (less on looks, more on character). Women need to CHOOSE better men to offer love to (less on chemistry; more on character).
What’s the common theme? Character.
Problem is that both men and women DO NOT ACCEPT the league they’re in and refuse to date within them, causing power disparities exacerbated by character flaws because both genders are prioritizing the wrong qualities.
jeremy says
“I know you’re saying that the problem is when a 6-man commits to a 6-woman and the 6-woman feels she has settled. Well, there’s a simple solution. He should dump this settling 6 for a quality 6 who appreciates him.”
Problem is, Karmic, that he often won’t know until too late that she thinks she settled. Most women, when looking for commitment, are on their best behavior. The whole “settling” meme usually comes years later.
Also, unfortunately most people are blissfully unaware of their rating in the eyes of the opposite sex. Look at the example in this post – a young woman who describes herself as attractive, with the minor detail of being a single mom who had her child out of wedlock with an un-involved dad. I have no interest in judging her or shaming her. But I am expressing reality when I say that this fact decreases her marriage market value immensely in the eyes of most men. The problem in her post is that she does not realize (or won’t acknowledge) that at this point in her life, her looks are not the only determinant of her “rating on the scale”, and that she can not reasonably expect the same caliber of men to be interested in her as once might have been the case.
She says it herself when she writes that the only men who have expressed interest in her are “geeky” or older, or unstable, and she doesn’t want to SETTLE. I wish this lady all the best. But I wonder, if she follows Evan’s advice and compromises, and finds a man who loves her and will become a father for her child, will she come to see herself as having settled, or will she realize how fortunate she is?
Karmic Equation says
“Problem is, Karmic, that he often won’t know until too late that she thinks she settled. Most women, when looking for commitment, are on their best behavior. The whole “settling” meme usually comes years later.”
Pre-marriage:
That may be the case, Jeremy. But it’s no more of a risk than a woman who has sex with a man who has no intention of ever committing to her. Both genders are at risk for not getting what they want. However, if you think about it. In both scenarios, men ARE getting what they want most: sex. Whereas when a woman has sex with a man who hides his commitment-aversity until after she’s emotionally invested in him, the man gave up nothing for that sex. — Man 1 Woman 0.
In terms of marriage, the guy gets sex all along the way to marriage. So the woman is “downpaying” for marriage with sex all during this time and should they break the engagement, the man got the sex (a downpayment for marriage that a woman nevers get back) and the woman had nothing to show for it but lost time (no relationship, not marriage), which we agree can be a MUCH more dire consequence to women because of our limited fertile years as compared to that of a man. So man wins again (if engagement is broken) – Man 2 Woman 0.
Post-marriage:
So now the woman got her marriage. She decides to curtail the sex for whatever her reason (lack of desire, thinking that she “settled”, he no longer makes the effort to win her, etc).
Man is still ahead because he got that downpayment, right? Man 2 Woman 1
Divorce:
Ok. They divorce. Woman gets 1/2 his assets and primary custody of their children. Man 2 Woman 2.
Divorced Man vs Divorced Woman:
Man can easily find another woman to have a relationship with. Woman not so much, because as you’ve just written, her marriage market value has dropped because she’s now a single mother who’s had children by some other man. Man 3 Woman 2.
Summary:
Man wins the RELATIONSHIP game. EVERY TIME. He doesn’t even lose the SEX game. He got the pre-marriage downpayment. Yes, men can lose money in a divorce. But money can be re-earned. A woman can’t get back those fertile years she’s lost. She’s older now and as women age her SMV drops. Dating is more difficult because she has primary custody. Whoopity do, but she has a lot of your money. Right, women win. NOT!
——–
To get back to your point, Jeremy. Just as MOST men are NOT players, MOST women do NOT consider themselves settling for a man when they enter a relationship. That sense of settling ONLY comes into play if something changes within the relationship for the worse. Most often a woman starts thinking that she settled when the guy starts taking her for granted.
That problem is easily solved: “Treat her like you’re still trying to win her, and you won’t ever lose her.”
I love FB memes <3
jeremy says
We may end up agreeing to disagree here, Karmic, because I don’t agree with your point system or your argument about women only perceiving themselves as settling if something heads south.
First, regarding the point system – I really don’t think that a man whose wife summarily refuses sex, divorces him, takes custody of his children and gets entitled to a permanent alimony cheque ends up with “equal points” because he got some premarital sex. But then, this may just be a matter of perspective.
But regarding your argument about women not perceiving themselves as having settled unless the man begins to neglect her….no. I can say that I have objective evidence that this is not true. The sheer number of articles written on the subject of women settling – written before the relationships even happen! – proves this point. Again, take this particular posting, the woman who believes that she is better than all the men who pursue her, and feels that she would be settling by accepting one.
Look at so many of the letters that Evan gets on the subject. Look at the number of commenters who discuss how they have settled or that they fear settling. The perception of settling happens on a conscious level when a woman decides to marry a type of guy who is different from the guys she has been attracted to in the past. The perception of settling happens when a woman decides that a man is a stable provider, though not the best looking or the best sex she has had, but would be a good dad.
How many times have we heard women ask Evan why they are not attracted to their “generous, devoted” boyfriends or husbands, and how often have we heard Evan say that when men pedestalize women, women can only look down on them? Perceptions of settling are not confined to relationships where men mis-treat women, but rather are more common when men pedestalize them.
I believe we would be intellectually dishonest to ignore the fact that this perception is so ubiquitous in the female population (and yes, we men have our problems too, but this isn’t one of them).
And, to end my post on a positive note, I believe the solution to this problem is the concept of gratitude. If we are thankful for the good in our lives, if we appreciate the things our partners do for us and choose not to focus on negatives, if we stop comparing the people we are with to others (or worse yet, to our idealized memories of others), we would stop seeing ourselves as having settled and perhaps be able to find happiness.
Karmic Equation says
“And, to end my post on a positive note, I believe the solution to this problem is the concept of gratitude. If we are thankful for the good in our lives, if we appreciate the things our partners do for us and choose not to focus on negatives, if we stop comparing the people we are with to others (or worse yet, to our idealized memories of others), we would stop seeing ourselves as having settled and perhaps be able to find happiness.”
I agree with this sentiment 100%. The nitpick I would have is that I would change the word “gratitude” to “appreciation”. The reason is because gratitude can be perceived as a “settling” sentiment, i.e., “If I didn’t have this, then I would have nothing. Therefore, I must be grateful.” Whereas “appreciation” is LIKING what you have. Easiest example: my exbf who was a player. I appreciated his player-ness, which was the culmination of his confidence, cockiness, smoothness, smarts, and, yes, even his ability to “manipulate” women, even me 🙂 All these qualities that made him a “major player” (as a woman warned me of) was what made him him. And I liked him. Therefore I appreciated those qualities that made him him. I wasn’t at all “grateful” that he was a player. lol. But I certainly appreciated that he was 🙂 OTOH, I was quite aware that he was not LTR material from all the qualities I did NOT appreciate in him (bad with money, drank too much, questionable friends, etc).
Women who appreciate men for their masculine qualities, which can often be a trial to women, are the happiest women and are the kinds of women who easily create that emotionally safe haven that most men yearn for: He can be himself around her without being judged, or mocked, or denigrated. With her, he doesn’t have to bite his tongue or filter his thoughts. He is appreciated for who he is, not who he can become. If compared to a previous ex, he nets out ahead.
Unless you’re married to a settling woman or have friends who are in relationships with settling women, they are no concern of ours. Any more than people out there committing crimes or having affairs. Women who believe they’ve settled kill their own happiness. We should pity them instead of worrying about them.
Your wife is a lucky woman, Jeremy. I hope she appreciates you 🙂
jeremy says
What a lovely post, thank you 🙂
I am, thankfully, blessed to have a wife who appreciates me and whom I appreciate. She wonders why I come to this website, and I reply that inter-gender dynamics fascinate me, and perspective on it can only help improve our relationship.
I think I agree with your last post 100%. Pleasure debating with you 🙂
Mickey says
Karmic:
The problem here is that most of the 80% that you are referring to won’t give most guys the time of day, either.
Julia says
If 95% of American adults will get married, this is an inaccurate observation. Sorry, utterly average people hook up every day.
Karmic Equation says
And so the answer is to ONLY go after the 8-10s?
No, Mickey. The answer is to keep lowering your league until you find a woman who will date you…and from THAT league, date the most attractive ones you can find. NOT to continue to go after the 8-10s who can date amongst themselves and are unlikely to gives 5-6s the time of day.
Henriette says
@James134 Surely you realise that most marriages of people under 25 will end in divorce. So, the men who insist on young brides are the same men, in a decade’s time, who will likely to be whining about getting screwed by the courts, alimony and child support payments.
Mickey says
Julia & Starthrower:
Whether it’s a guy defending himself, or simply disagreeing with a woman, the fact that he said something in opposition automatically makes him wrong and a jerk in the eyes of most women. Again, I get it.
jeremy says
Mickey, I’m not female, nor am I a “white knight”. I am a guy who would like the world to be a place where both my son and my daughters have a decent chance to find happiness and fulfillment – and not at each others’ expense. To build a world like that requires us to understand the prerogatives of both genders – to realize what women (generally) like and want, and to realize what men (generally) like and want. We do not want the same things – saying that we do will not lead to a happy world. That is the main qualm I have with feminism’s current incarnation – the supposition of genderless homogeneity inevitably leads women to believe that men’s desires are immature rather than simply different.
Similarly, I have spent enough time on the manosphere to see that there is a lot of genuine lack of respect for women there (though not from everyone there). Teaching men that the only way they can succeed with women is to maintain constant “frame” and to consider most of their requests to be shit tests is not a recipe for successful relationships.
Mickey, I agree that this article represents some of what is wrong with the female side of things. Women who constantly complain that they have “settled” often lack understanding both of their own value and the value of the men they are with. My own view of women who are in relationships where they believe they “settled” is that in fact the man has “settled” to be with a woman who does not respect him, and would be better off without her.
But I would also posit that a man who believes that women owe him something or that he should constantly be in control, or that the world has wronged him somehow….that is a man that women would be wise to avoid.
You want more female attention? Learn what women want, and try to be that way (hit the gym, get a job, read a book, etc.). Similarly, a woman wants a man to commit to her? Learn what men want from a committed relationship partner, and try to be that way. Don’t want to be that way? That’s your prerogative. But don’t be surprised when women don’t call and men don’t propose.
starthrower68 says
You’re not getting that from me, as I did not call you any names nor did I make any such charge. You are more than welcome to explain to me how this adversarial mindset works in your favor. If you want quality women, great, I’m all for you. But how does this mindset help you achieve it? You don’t even have to put in a romantic context. I’m betting friends, family, etc. would find such hostility off-putting.
Mickey says
Starthrower:
I meant my comment as a general charge…nothing directed specifically to you. Sorry for the confusion.
starthrower68 says
I apologize for my stupid phone again. Btw, Mickey, I have two boys that I adore. It would be ridiculous for me to have an anti-male mindset. I also have a daughter I adore. What I want my children to learn – and the kind of world I want them to live in – is we all need each other and were created for relationship and fellowship.
alice says
Well its all about state of mind, im31 with a 5 year old son and broke up last year with my partner after almost 10 years together. I have decided that Im not going to rush into anything new and I am going to enjoy my time as being single, Im tall, slim and pretty and I never have had a problem with attracting men or when men find out I have a child I didnt see any of them run, then again my ex partner was 10 years older so I tend to go for men 34+ rather than boys . So my advice would be just relax enjoy your single time and don’t be desperate because you sound so desperate with your ‘princess day’ and ‘rolemodel’ for your kid.
Lisa says
I agree with you that people not just women should throw up their lists! I have very few “must haves” one of which is I won’t date a smoker. But attraction is important and I date all types of men, bald of all races, all hair colors and looks but I am not attracted to short men meaning under 5’9 can’t do it and have tried really hard. Financially I make a large salary so I’m not looking for money and I could care less what a guy makes but Evan I’m sorry a large cause of divorce is money so of people disagree on money I think they should discuss that and I would not compromise on attraction. I will give it a few dates but if I’m repulsed I’m not forcing myself because I think it’s all I can get or I think I will end up alone because I know that’s not true and I don’t care if I do. Maybe that’s where I differ? So many women settle like you suggest and end up in miserable marriages!
Evan Marc Katz says
Show me where I asked you to settle. Otherwise, you are merely engaging in a straw man argument which conflates compromising for settling.
will says
The problem is that she is far enough down the dating hierchy since you must pay for two that she would have to make such compromises and thus she will be the one who has to go for the ugly and bottom guys ( somebody has to ) and thus she will have to decide to date or not. She will depending on the country be lucky to date men with jobs at all and maybe even the drinkers thats the reality depending on where she is. I have nothing against her but every man i know is against dating a single-mother. They usually just do flings and focus on the kids.
Dani. says
After my divorce, I chose to compromise On a few things I wanted in a man. I completely went to
out of the box thinking. Let me tell you , this divorced father of 3 with a crazy ex wife almost ruined my life and my children.
He maintained his ex wife was a crazy woman
that’s why they could not get along and hence, she divorced him. Well, he was a poser . She was determined to create havoc. She turned the children against me.
Moral of the story. Watch what they do. Listen intently on what is said. Make sure you’re okay with a guy with 3 young children. Also, there’s a reason the ex dumped him. He was actually a selfish emotionally unavailable man, posing as a
nice guy.
Lisa says
I rhink this writer needs to recognize that because she has a child, specifically a young child that is going to limit her dating pool of men in her age range. Is she willing to date men with kids? Generally 34 year old men without kids are looking to marry, have a great time for awhile and then have kids. Particularly in situations with no coparent as it appears here, the woman will have less free time to spend one on one with the man. Many men in that age range are not looking for an insta family. I,personally think she needs to date older men or men with kids of their own.
SweetB says
I found I had some of the same problems finding dateable men. I’m 31, no children, decent job (nurse), have my own place and my own vehicle. You wouldn’t believe how hard it is to find someone just on the same level. I found once I opened up a bit and got to know people before judging it got a lot easier. I ended up meeting someone my age, no kids, has own vehicle and job but was living with his mom. I obviously didn’t love the fact that he was living with his mom but he had so many other things I was looking for. We’ve been together about 8 or 9 months now and things are great. You have to pick what’s more important in that list. I liked that he had no children(not that I don’t like kids but dating with them is hard), he’s genuine, we have fun and he treats me very well. I find him to be attractive. Is he a model? No. But am I? No. This is real life. You can’t have it all. Be a little flexible with your list and I’m sure you could find someone.
RKGB says
“Paula” sounds a little immature. She’s figuring things out, and she definitely has a few hurdles before her. Vino, her story triggered some strong reactions from you. It was nice to read a few men could compartmentalize their issues with her naïveté and be a little empathetic. Steve, I know a men who have stepped up and remained great fathers to children from a prior marriage, even after that subsequent relationship failed. That’s up to the father to “step up.” I appreciate the new perspective regarding “compromise,” but there really are characteristics that cannot be put on the table to barter. I’m learning that maybe time is what is needed to shake out the compromises, learn perspectives of others, pare down/ adjust the wish list. The only item I can imagine that will come back to haunt a person after that time passes is the “youth” issue. If you’ve got a penchant for a younger prize, male or female/ gay or straight, burn the candle at both ends finding something, but you’re assuming a lot of risk. Other than that, just cool your jets and date casually or enjoy the single life. Enjoy your children, your job, those things that have been deal breakers for others. There may be fewer seeming folks to date down the line, but compromise and peace will be easier to achieve… in fact so easy, it won’t feel like compromise at all.
Daniel says
If you’re a man foolish enough to consider a relationship with this woman, I suggest you find out who her ex-boyfriend is, track him down and get his side of the story. Women lie. And the more desperate the woman, the bigger the lies. They are also delusional and almost totally incapable of accurately assessing objective reality.
will says
problem is she is now at the bottom of the dating pool since you literally cannot even have a family of your own with her and instead must pay for and take on some other guys kid. This is were women find that they become undatable and the shock of not being able to pick a man but fight for scraps like the short fat unemployed men have to makes many of these women go a sort of reverse mgtow themselves and just decide to stay single rather than date guys without jobs or looks. It is sad on some levels but i am sure this guy was obviously not great to any rational outside observer.
I personally want a marriage and family and probably such a women would date me but would stay single rather than date a single mother any day of the week ( and twice on Sundays). Paying for another mans child would feel as emasculating as being cheated on, maybe worse.
will says
Women over 30 are rarely considered by educated men in their early to mid thirties in most cities anyway unless they earn enough or are wealthy enough to not be a divorce risk. The better men are long partnered off at this age.
She has double outgoings ie a kid so unless she earns a lot she will categorically not be on the radar of any university educated man. As a white woman interracial dating is similar for men and women as rates but the educated white men are the white men leaving the pool for asian women where its the poorer white women leaving the pool for black/arab men. More females also graduate which is a talked about factor but the IR disparity is actually much bigger but less PC to mention. It affects the young working class non-college white men and graduate white women negatively, and gives the reverse groups massive numbers of options ( ie uneducated white women and college grad white men ).
Whatever her race if the child is not of her race she has nill options within her race . Black women with mixed white kids cannot get the good black guys, and white with mixed black can only get black guys and Asian with mixed x can only get x guys, REALISTICALLY.
White women have a reputation as being divorce trigger happy and that they have double the ten year divorce rates of white men ( at least ) in EVERY class of IR marriage in the USA the reputation and stereotype is not without merit. WMBF about 15% ten year divorce rate where WWBM 75% which is the biggest disparity and is literally 500% higher. Also white lesbian women have crazy divorce rates verses white gay men. This is Only SEA women are worse bets for a white men and all others are much better. All groups have their stereotypes and WW as being awful partners like black men being involved in crime is one that she must might to prove she can be a good partner and is better than the stereotype in an international graduate marriage market where asians are the biggest group and whites the minority and blacks and arab globally as graduates of top 5k Universities statistically barely a trace number mostly in the USA.
Probably all those men she rejects wouldn’t take her seriously anyway. She will be able to marry a non college graduate without any money or sizable income to risk who cannot get an unmarried women if upon dating her character and values seem marriage-able. The reality is from the article she is focused on having a wedding not the married life.
Distribution of men with kids means fewer single fathers since a few produce many single mothers so there are far fewer single fathers about looking for wives than single mothers.
Evan Marc Katz says
Readers: this is complete and utter nonsense that only sounds authoritative. Feel free to disregard entirely.
GoWiththeFlow says
But it is entertaining in a watching the opera singer forget the verse and accidentally knock over the pillar on the set kind of way. 😉
Emily, the original says
GoWiththeFlow,
But it is entertaining
Yeah. And the post says far more about the writer himself than it does the subject he is writing about.
will says
Which part? Actually its completely accurate you are uninformed.
Here is the data on interracial divorce data http://www.divorcesource.com/blog/interracial-marriage-and-divorce/
The part of women with interacial kids not being able to date the men of their own race was just an observation but I think its accurate largely from my life experience. You can check that far more women do graduate and that the majority of graduates globally by far are asian.
Different distributions of numbers of children of men vs women is something that is widely known if you google it.
will says
And WMAF are higher earners is also fact if you check it out
insignia says
Long story short she dated a good looking jerk to make her pretty baby and now she wants a provider for her and baby.