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No, it’s not quite as many as Britney Spears, but it’s something that lots of folks have been looking for a long, long time.
Now, I’m not going to claim to know the secret of life — not yet, anyway — but I’m pretty sure I know the secret to a long-term relationship.
It starts with learning from the wisdom of people who are different than you are — old married couples, relationship counselors, and yes, even dating coaches — and considering how to apply their respective points of view to your complicated love life.
You’ve heard me talk about chemistry before. And in the dating business, I’m far from the only one.
Attraction’s not a choice. By the same token, attraction isn’t a very good predictor of relationship health.
A favorite relationship expert named Alison Armstrong says that when you’re lucky enough have your chemistry dialed up to 10 with a man, you should probably run in the opposite direction.
What?!
That sounds so counterintuitive. But consider this:
When you’re crazily attracted to some guy, doesn’t that feeling actually make you a little bit…crazy?
You start to obsess about when he’s going to call.
You become weak and needy because you’re so consumed by him.
You can’t stop thinking about him and have trouble focusing on work.
And this is supposed to be a good thing?
Take a second and think about who you are at your BEST around.
It’s probably not the person you lust after the most. More likely, it’s your best friend. Or your sister. Or your mom.
These are the people around whom you can truly be yourself — at both your best AND your worst. So why do you always choose men where you’re walking on eggshells?
“But I can’t help what I’m attracted to!” you might say.
You’re right. Attraction’s not a choice. By the same token, attraction isn’t a very good predictor of relationship health.
I’ve been attracted to HUNDREDS of toxic women. Most times, I was so driven by this attraction that I was willing to overlook their considerable negative qualities.
Have you ever done this yourself? I’m betting that you have.
Because whether you’re attracted to great looks, extreme wealth, or bountiful brains, you can’t help the way you feel. Yet that feeling is EXACTLY why you keep being drawn towards the same incompatible men.
You like a man who is very successful financially? Guess what? He’s likely to be a Type A workaholic. He’s likely to be opinionated and bossy. He’s likely to be on a bit of a power trip. He may have trouble compromising. He’s not necessarily interested in sharing his feelings and has even less interest in hearing your feelings. But congratulations — you’ve got financial security!
You like a man who is extremely attractive? Guess what? He’s likely to be a bit of a narcissist. He’s used to being given special attention for his looks and may not have developed the same kindness and generosity that you have. He may be underdeveloped in other arenas such as intelligence and worldliness, since so much of his life has revolved around people being attracted to him. Oh, and don’t forget, he’s extremely insecure; he needs the validation of constantly finding new women to tell him how gorgeous he is. But boy, is he hot! Enjoy your trophy, my friend.
You like a guy who is super smart? Guess what? Chances are he lives in his head. He’s over-analytical. He’s somewhat of a know-it-all. He has social insecurities. He’s kind of moody because he doesn’t see the world like everyone else does. He’s tortured by his potential. He can be wildly creative and unstable or blindly driven by money. He’s quite possibly depressed, and, at the very least, intense. But, yeah, he’s fascinating. Hang on tight, and embrace the drama!
So when you’re assessing your dating prospects and are thinking past the lust phase into “Who will be wheeling me to my chemo treatments in 40 years”, consider that everything that attracts you comes with a considerable downside.
And the people who REALLY have it figured out — the couples who’ve been married for 40 years — could probably tell you the same.
Ask an elderly married person the secret to her relationship. Do you think you’re going to hear words like: lust, money, and intellectual stimulation? No.
You’re going to hear things like friendship, compromise, laughter, and trust.
If you’re entirely driven by short-term attraction, you can’t be too surprised when you haven’t found a relationship that sticks.
How boring!
Yet it’s plainly apparent that THOSE are the qualities you should be looking for when choosing a partner. Those are the qualities that determine long-term compatibility.
And if you’re entirely driven by short-term attraction, you can’t be too surprised when you haven’t found a relationship that sticks.
Christina says
Yes, yes, yes!!! Just about everyone in my family has been married for 30+ years, and while I know that some of them were crazy-attracted to each other when they met, when it came time for marriage, they made sure that they had shared values and had a genuine liking and respect for each other. So, all of the superficial things that people place so much importance on are just not the things that are truly important to a good relationship.
Candice says
I had to laugh throughout this post. Love the sarcasm haha. Very true though and well written. Unfortunately it seems hard to find those simple qualities sometimes and when you do find a guy who you click with and whom you think is great, it seems like there’s always an obstacle in the way like he is getting over a breakup or is moving away or something else. Sigh, trying to keep positive though. Thanks for sharing this 🙂
Helen says
Evan, you’re spot-on here. I can’t help thinking this is a very interesting post to put right after the one about the woman Elizabeth who wanted to move in with her best friend. I was one of the people who said that might be okay (better than okay), because they have friendship, and that is the most precious thing.
I’m not sure it’s fair to say that attractive people are likely to be narcissistic, though. The vast majority of the beautiful people I know are also extremely nice.
If I could boil down your perfect advice into two words when it comes to seeking a long-term mate, it would be: Avoid drama.
S says
Sorry Evan, I have to totally disagree with you here. Life is too short to settle. If you’re going to spend the next 50 years of your life with someone happily, you’ve got to have chemistry as well as trust, friendship, laughter, etc. I speak from personal experience…a marriage without chemistry will not last.
Selena says
The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is 42 Evan.
Gem says
“Friendship, laughter, compromise, trust…” Hmm, that checklist is getting a bit long. 😉
My best and most healthy relationship lacked chemistry/passion. We were aware of that going in, but felt there was enough there to work with, as well as having all the things you listed above. But it ended. Because…..you guessed it. Lack of passion/chemistry….
I’d really like to think I can have chemistry AND the elements you listed. But I’m still working on that.
I do agree that having chemistry for someone is NOT an indicator, in and of itself, of having found a good partner.
Sharon says
Yes please clarify. Selfish for dating the guys your not attracted to for dating friend you’re not attracted to and foolish for dating the ones your are attracted to.
What am I supposed to do?
Who are these slightly less attractive guys that have wheel chair pushing potential. I’ve never met one. Asking me to find one feel like being asked to bag a liger (tiger + lion) on safari. Damnnit there from two different continents.
nathan says
Given the last post with Elizabeth, as well as personal experience, I have to say that having some “chemistry” with a potential partner is maybe not required, but probably is damned helpful.
It seems to me that so many of these relationship stories that get written up online fall into the two extremes. Either someone is broiled in drama with a person they’re sexually on fire with, or it’s someone like Elizabeth, who has zero attraction to a partner and wonders what to do about that. Neither of these kinds of situations seem to work out well in the end. They haven’t for me anyway.
And having worked with English Language Learners who were in arranged marriages, I have seen that those who were most happy and healthy seemed to have some attraction to, and affection for their spouses. It may have developed over time, or maybe was there even at the beginning, but again the emphasis is on SOME. I can think of at least for or five former students who were in marriages where they felt absolutely zero attraction to their spouses, and all of them were also lacking other elements – like felt friendship or laughter as well.
Evan Marc Katz says
I will remind our readers that I never said that there shouldn’t be any chemistry.
All I said was not to be so blinded by chemistry that you give up on values, trust, laughter and long-term compatibility.
Daisy says
Gosh this is too funny. I’ve had exactly 3 ex boyfriends, and each of them belonged to the categories u mentioned in the post Evan! And yup, none of them worked out!
I am now extremely lucky to be with a man who I have deep attraction to, is intelligent and handsome, PLUS he is truly committed to me and our relationship, and he deeply values our trust, friendship, compromise, and all those boring stuffs that constitute the foundations for a longlasting marriage/relationship.
Sharon says
@ Evan
I know you never say no chemistry. But the pseudo half-way chemistry you speak of if a strange concept.
But what is half way chemistry. Repulsion is a clear sign of lack of chemistry. But is ambivalence good? What is the lowest dose of chemistry that still would be tolerable? I know what the awesome butterflies feel like and I know what disgust feels like. But what does sorta chemistry feel like? Does anyone know?
Evan Marc Katz says
Sharon, I’m not sure what black and white world you live in where it’s either WHITE-HOT chemistry or ZERO chemistry, but it’s not my world. In my world, there’s a spectrum from 1-10. And if I’m seeing a woman and there’s 7 chemistry and 10 compatibility, I’d highly consider that relationship.
Of course, you can keep chasing the 10 chemistry, but you might just find that your relationship is a very tempestuous and dissatisfying “4”.
Christie Hartman says
Evan (9), I was going to say the same thing. It’s amazing how when you tell people that focusing on heavy chemistry won’t bring you long term marital happiness, all some of them hear is, “Chemistry doesn’t matter and you should ignore it,” like S (4) did.
Chemistry is important and necessary in a relationship. However, a subtle and slower-growing chemistry can wind up building into something powerful and lasting. And, as I discussed in my last blog, I cannot tell you how many women have said to me, “I didn’t feel that much chemistry on the first date, but I gave him another chance and it grew, and now it’s really great.”
Chasing instant or extremely powerful chemistry is tempting, but it can be a trap if you think it’s enough to sustain things over the long term. IT’S NOT. Without the compatibility to go with it, that chemistry will be dead in the water eventually. A lot of times, chasing only chemistry isn’t about love, it’s about ego.
Helen (3): I don’t think Evan’s argument works for the woman in the previous post. She had a complete LACK chemistry with him, which doesn’t work either.
Victoria says
all I’m looking for is a gentlman I both admire & enjoy…& historically, when I have found that, the chemistry actually develops on its own…
Gem says
I know what Sharon means. I usually have chemistry or I don’t. If I have it, that doesn’t mean it’s a relationship made in heaven.
I did embark on a relationship with a great man in personality and I thought there was enough chemistry to work with. It’s hard to quantify on a 1-10 scale like Evan did. But let’s say, being physical with him was nice. Not awful, not fabulous. Nice, comfortable, just fine.
My love and appreciation for him grew deeper over the years, but my passion did not. We were friends who also found each other attractive and thought it was a good plan. It was not. Life was dull, we both became complacent because trying to create romance felt artificial. We both longed for what was missing and could never eject it into our relationship because chemistry is just that: Chemical, mysterious. It can’t be manufactured.
I’m holding out for true chemistry but with a really great guy.
S says
I didn’t have zero chemistry – maybe a 5. I think it has to be stronger to last years and years and years. At least for me.
AQ says
Agreed.
southern34 says
Totally agree with you Evan! My relationship with my boyfriend is the healthiest, most loving relationship I’ve been in, including my 4 year marriage to my ex. Was I initially totally and utterly attracted to my boyfriend and wanted to jump his bones on the first date? No, not really. Was I repulsed by the thought of kissing him either? No. It was somewhere in the middle. In the past seven months since our first date, we have grown from about a 6 on the chemistry scale to about a 9. We can’t keep our hands off of each other now! But it took a month or two for that to develop, and it keeps on getting stronger as we become closer. Two years ago, I wouldn’t have given him a chance after a few dates, but now I’m on the road to what could be the man I am meant to marry. Pretty damn sure of it actually, and by all indications, he feels the same way :-).
Chemistry is important, and it is necessary for a healthy relationship, but the kind that starts of hot and heavy from the very beginning is not always an indicator of a long-term, healthy relationship!
Selena says
I define “chemistry” as combined sexual, mental, and emotional attraction. If you have one, but not the others – the relationship feels lacking and usually fizzles out. But there seem to be a good many people who believe sexual attraction – instant, and intense – is the only real measure of chemistry and it’s yang, compatibility.
I’ve found what Christie Hartman describes in #12:”… a subtle and slower- growing chemistry can wind up building up into something powerful and lasting” to be true – and also the composite of sexual, mental and emotional attraction. If there is something to start with….why not take the bit of time to see what might develop? Especially if you’ve noticed “instant” rarely develops into anything?
Christie Hartman says
Gem (15): I had a situation like that once too. We got along great and there was enough chemistry to get things rolling, but not enough to keep me from checking out other men more than I would have liked. It wasn’t enough. I suppose everyone has a different threshold for this. But I have met men I felt little chemistry with at the start but then it turned into really strong chemistry.
Selena (19): Yes, the other types of chemistry are just as important! People think of chemistry as physical/sexual chemistry, but it’s so much more. Oh, and your “42” thing cracked me up! I haven’t read that book in 20 years.
jack says
“But I can’t help what I’m attracted to!”
When people say this, they are actually kind of chickening out on personal growth.
Let’s try a little experiment:
“I can’t help that I’m not attracted to healthy food.”
“I can’t help that I’m not attracted to paying my taxes.”
“I can’t help that I’m not attracted to exercise.”
“I can’t help that I’m not attracted to getting to work on time.”
“I can’t help that I’m not attracted to being polite to other people.”
None of us would accept at face value a 400# person saying “I can’t help it – I’m only attracted to ice cream and cookies.”
Or a slacker-husband who says “I can’t help it – I’m only attracted to jobs that let me sleep in late and don’t require me to develop any skills.”
Everything in life involves sacrifice, compromise, and getting only part of what we want. Why should love and romance be any different? Do people REALLY think that the universe is going to provide them with a ‘nearly perfect’ spouse?
The amazing lusty connection felt by chasing the perfect match chemistry-wise is not your best marriage partner. Follow your heart, you say?
Fine. Then follow your tongue at mealtime and stop eating those unattractive healthy foods and start indulging in rich, fattening foods.
When I meet someone who has chased bad people for too long because of ‘chemistry’, I regard them the same way I do as a person who has no control over what they put in their mouth.
jack says
Also, it is interesting to see the way that many (not all – many) people here frame the discussion.
They assert that there is “attractive” and “unattractive”. By erroneously framing the choice between butterflies in the tummy and ‘eww’, they are able to rationalize the continued chasing of people who are probably out of their league.
Personally, I find the vast majority of women attractive to some degree or other.
But a lot of that is because I had the emotional maturity to train myself to be more open. It doesn’t just happen. If you want to be attracted to the right kind of people, you will have to WORK, WORK, WORK!!!
If you are waiting until you “feel like” exercising, you will never be fit. If you are waiting until you “feel like” studying, you will not be a success.
Perhaps you are waiting for your preference in men or women to change. Or perhaps you are waiting for that perfect person – you know – the bag of carrots that actually tastes like hershey’s chocolate. Or the zero-calories hot fudge sundae that is packed with nutrients. Such perfect people exist, but they are rare, and most often snapped up early by similarly perfect people.
That leaves the rest of us to TRAIN OUR IMPULSES AND APPETITES. It can be done, and we will be better people for it.
Jadafisk says
As an introvert, I have a bit of a problem. I find socializing inherently draining, so there has to be *something* about a man that compels me to continue to maintain contact, or I have to schedule it like a chore and guilt myself into it. If a guy has a high looks, personality and or intelligence quotient, it’s easy. But if he’s got 5s across the board, I get lazy and procrastinate for like, a month before contacting him again.
Sherell says
I think having strong chemistry initially is usually baseless so that may be why it fizzles. Not really based on anything substantial. But I agree with those that say the chemistry grows. Chemistry to me is more of a click as opposed to strong attraction. Its like to puzzle pieces coming together
I have super chemistry with my boyfriend but it developed overt ime.
FYI there are unattractive narcissistic people and not so smart people living in their head…..im just saying
Selena says
@Sherrell #24
“Chemistry to me is more of a click as opposed to strong attraction. Its like two puzzle pieces coming together.”
Well put. I experience it the same way. I also thinks it’s why instant infatuation often fizzles out fairly quickly – when you realize the other pieces to the puzzle are missing.
my honest answer says
I’d just like to chime in and say there is no way I’m at my best with my mother! Holy drama potential batman.
But I agree that it’s those people who bring out your best qualities that you should strive to be around.
Sorry Mom, can’t make Christmas this year.
jack says
Sherell-
“I have super chemistry with my boyfriend but it developed over time.”
Your statement, while not rare, is more the exception than the rule. Too many people want that chemistry to be immediate and undeniable.
Kudos to you for understanding that soul mates are made, not discovered.
Sharon says
@Jack
I never said some one had to be nearing perfection for me to attracted. Not all the guys I’ve dated are at the same level of attractiveness. But when I want someone It doesn’t matter if the last guy I dated was hotter taller smarter. Whether objectively the last guy was a 10 and this guy is a 5 when I want someone I just want them.
How do you purpose training yourself to be attracted? If dating men you aren’t sexually attracted to is selfish than what course of action do you recommend?
I have known men I would have loved to be attracted to because they were inherently good people but I know I could be fair to them because I can’t think of them as anything more than friends. Falling in love is usually easy staying in love is harder. So if it starts off being so much work how can you expect to maintain it?
http://www.livescience.com/5502-men-agree-hot-women.html
Worth noting those ok cupid findings that conclude women find women find most men less than average are a little more complicated.
For example I can grasp the concept that the guys from the jersey shore have great bodies but if someone asked how attractive I find them I would say 0 -1 because of the way they present themselves. Some other lady could rate them an 8 but he would still average as below average.
Sherell says
Jack,
I was initially attracted enough to him, but maybe it is more indicative of my nature that the chemistry came later over time. That being said, when I say time I am not speaking years but rather months! After each date and converstions….Sometime you need time to take you where you need to be!!
Karl R says
S said: (#16)
“I think [chemistry] has to be stronger to last years and years and years. At least for me.”
Infatuation (the early stage of a relationship that’s driven by the chemistry of endorphins like dopamine and phenoethalymine flooding your brain) wears off in 2 monthes to 2 years. It doesn’t matter how strong it was initially, it doesn’t last. Humans are not genetically designed for perpetual infatuation. If you require infatuation to sustain your relationship, you’ve set yourself up for failure already.
Gem said: (#15)
“we both became complacent because trying to create romance felt artificial.”
I’m not compelled by chemistry to tell my fiancee that she’s beautiful or sexy. I recognize that it’s in my best interest to make her feel beautiful, sexy and loved … so I tell her that frequently. I did it often enough to turn it into a habitual behavior. It feels as natural as adjusting my glasses (which I do even when I’m not wearing them).
Putting effort into a relationship is one choice. Complacency is another choice. One works much better than the other.
Jadafisk said: (#23)
“there has to be *something* about a man that compels me to continue to maintain contact, […] if he’s got 5s across the board, I get lazy and procrastinate for like, a month”
That’s why I recommend waiting at least 2 years before marrying. I want the infatuation to disappear so I can discover if my partner gets lazy about the effort required to maintain a relationship.
Gem said: (#15)
“chemistry is just that: Chemical, mysterious. It can’t be manufactured.”
I’m not going ask what kind of marks you got in your chemistry classes. Chemists manufacture chemicals all the time.
Your brain is flooded with endorphins which produce all the feelings and physiological reactions you associate with “chemistry”. No more mystery.
Pick-up artists are wildly successful at short-term relationships because they have learned how to manufacture chemistry in relationships. They’ve taken what you find mysterious and inexplicable and turned it into a science.
So when you feel that mysterious pull of chemistry, it may be just because he knows what psychological and sociological levers to pull.
Sharon asked: (#11)
“What is the lowest dose of chemistry that still would be tolerable? […] what does sorta chemistry feel like? Does anyone know?”
If I can look at a woman, focus on her best physical features and think “yeah, she’s kinda cute,” that’s sufficient.
As jack stated (#22), you have to mentally train yourself to be open to a wider variety of people. For me, focusing on their best features is an easy way to do it. I’ve been mentally training myself for 20 years, so it’s habitual now.
Sharon says
@ Southern34, Sherell and anyone else willing to answer.
1. Was the chemistry off at first because of physical attraction or the conversation didn’t flow easily different senses of humor?
2. Are we talking good bye hug, peck on check kiss first date send off.
3. If a friend asked you how your first date went would you describe it fun, good, pleasant, boring, awkward, has potential. Were you excited about date two or was it more of a mind of matter senario?
4. Did it feel kinda like a business meeting or was it comfortable?
5. How many dates before your did it take before you knew you were interested?
6. Do you think most relationships with that start as a six have potential or do you feel you got lucky? (You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find one that becomes a prince phenomenon)
Ruby says
I think it depends on how you define chemistry. Is is a a fireworks kind of excitement and a rush of passion? Or is it a combination of physical attraction, liking, and a sense of connection? If you always expect the former, you will probably be disappointed. I remember asking my father what made my parents’ marriage work and he answered “Trust and respect.” Pretty straightforward. After my mother passed away, a close friend of hers confided that my mother adored my father, and when they met she felt that he was “the answer to her prayers.” I’m not sure my mother would have told me that herself, so it was nice to know that my parents had a connection that worked on multiple levels. She had already rejected a couple of other marriage proposals, so my father really made the cut! Knowing that my parents had that has made it harder for me to settle for less.
Oh, and my healthiest relationship was with a man who was definitely “super-smart”. He did live in his head a bit, but he did not have any of the other negative qualities EMK mentioned. A man doesn’t have to be as smart as my ex, but intelligence is definitely a tough one for me to compromise on.
Laine says
Evan @ 9- Why do you think we would be so blinded by chemistry that we give up on values, trust, laughter and long-term compatibility? Maybe the women who come to you for coaching have that mindset but I have found my peers and friends of both sexes in my age group(40+) do not have this unrealistic expectation and just want to meet someone that they find attractive and then explore getting to know them.getting blinded by chemistry is a teenage thing..surely:)
Christie Hartman says
Karl (30): “Your brain is flooded with endorphins which produce all the feelings and physiological reactions you associate with “chemistry”. No more mystery. Pick-up artists are wildly successful at short-term relationships because they have learned how to manufacture chemistry in relationships. They’ve taken what you find mysterious and inexplicable and turned it into a science.”
Yes, and no. Feelings of infatuation do come from neurotransmitters and other chemicals flooding the brain, but it’s a stretch to say that there is no mystery to this, and an even bigger stretch to say that pickup artists have turned the “manufacturing” of chemistry into a science. Brain chemicals do play a role in feeling chemistry – the real mystery is understanding why one person will trigger these chemicals in you right away, another over time, and still another won’t trigger them at all. This is where the psychology piece comes into play. Ever read Harville Hendrix’s books? And I think even the pickup artist himself would admit that what he does is an art, not a science (hence the phrase “pickup artist.”)
Annie says
@Karl R and Jack.
Agree with you completely on this one. You can “train” yourself in a sense, to be more open to other people. I pretty much ignore chemistry now, and in fact if the chemistry is too strong, I stay away. It’s strange, how it used to be “exciting”, now it actually feels almost fearful.(And I’ve read “fear” is exactly what chemistry is, hence our active response to it).
The other thing is, as Karl has intimated is that you can train yourself to habitually “give” your partner what they want. It should almost become like 2nd nature, to notice them and provide for them what they really need and desire in a relationship. But that takes effort. If 2 people are doing that, constantly showing each other that they care, feelings of love and attraction will naturally follow.
Chemistry is highly, highly overrated.
Annie says
oh just to add to my last comment, I meant that “initial” chemistry is what is highly overrated. Chemistry that builds over time, due to genuine affection is far better imo.
jack says
“How do you purpose training yourself to be attracted? If dating men you aren’t sexually attracted to is selfish than what course of action do you recommend? “
I used to crave crappy food. I ate enough raw veggies and other healthy foods that I now finally crave healthy meals. It is all about exposure.
It would be easier to to retrain myself to eat fast food, since it is salty, fatty, and sugary. Same with preference in women.
Whatever things you pay attention to, you will learn to appreciate. If you are a guy who can’t stop thinking about a girl’s chest size, then you will be forever [email protected] into a puerile world of chasing b–b size.
Women who are always looking for a Mr. Big awe-inspiring experience will also likely be stunted in their growth.
Look at it this way: When I was 15, I though black Trans Ams were the coolest car in the world. I wanted one as bad as you could imagine. Thankfully, my taste in cars matured before I ever had the money to buy such an embarrassing display of male over-compensation.
When I meet a late-30s woman who is still looking for a “bad boy”, except now she want one who has a great job, I think of all the pudgy middle-aged guys driving Corvettes. It only shows their lack of maturity.
Anyway, back to the point: You train yourself by CONCENTRATING on, and THINKING about the qualities that you know you should be attracted to.
You will not learn to love salad overnight if you are accustomed to french fries. But you can learn it, if you want to.
One last thing that might help: When you meet one of those “nice guys” who have all these great qualities, but you just don’t “find attractive”, just keep repeating this over and over to yourself:
“I should be attracted to men like this. Therefore, this is a problem with me that I must learn to overcome”. If you learn to view yourself as the one needing improvement, you will find it much easier to give those nice guys a “chance” (ugh, how I hate that phrase).
helene says
I wonder what people think about the issue of online dating and the need for instant (or fairly instant!) chemistry? I met a guy online and have seen him twice in the past week. He was keen for a third date, but I have decided not to see him again. Why? Because after 2 dates, I have absolutely no desire to go to bed with this man. I got on well with him in conversation, and I felt he was “suitable” in many other respects – age, divorced for a decent length of time,financially stable, some similar interests, someone I could reasonably imagine socialising with my friends etc..etc… but although he was perfectly average looking, like I said, I simply felt no desire to have sex with him. Its all very well to talk about seeing if chemistry develps over time, but I know that if I were to see him again, we’d be at DATE THREE and there would be an expectation for things to get sexual. Of course, I could say I wanted to wait, and as he seemed keen on me no doubt he would have agreed to keep seeing me for a bit without having sex, but the expectation would still hang in the air between us. He’d be WAITING. And I’d feel under pressure to develop sexual desire for him, or to let him move on.
When you meet someone at work, say, or through a leisure activity, there is time to get to know someone BEFORE you go on a date with them. If, over time, an attraction develops between two people at work, THEN they start dating. The workmates you’ve known for a while and don’t develop an attraction to, you wouldn’t accept a date with, as you already KNOW you aren’t attracted to them.
With online dating, this is not the way things go. I’m not knocking online dating – the vast majority of dates I go on are with people who’ve contacted me online, and I do think it is a fantastic way of meeting people whp are interested in a relationship, but I do feel the dynamics of online dating somehow demand a quick decision on the chemistry front. Does anyone understand what I mean, or am I just rambling here?
Daphne says
@Evan, is there a Nobel Prize for Dating Advice ? Because you should win it !
Annie says
@38
I’ve mentioned this before, and I think you have hit onto THE problem.
There is an expectation that sex will happen quickly. Therefore, chemistry needs to happen quickly. Meaning if by date 3, you don’t sleep with some-one it means you dont’ “like” them, and they leave or you leave. The other belief is that you dont’ like “sex” if you don’t have sex straight away.
Falacies, that will be very difficult imo, for people to overcome in the dating world, while they look for a partner that is actually compatible.
Christie Hartman says
Helene (38): I agree completely that this is a problem. People seem to expect chemistry to develop quickly when meeting someone online, despite the fact they’re a complete stranger. As you said, there are certain expectations – by the 3rd date, you’re expected to have some sort of physical intimacy. In regular dating, you have the benefit of getting to know someone without this sort of pressure. And if you do feel chemistry quickly when meeting someone online, can you really trust it when you don’t even know that person? To me, this is one of the biggest drawbacks to online dating. I suppose the only solution to this is to be aware of it.
TW says
Hahahahaha, I just finished dating a guy who is rich, handsome and brilliant. He’s a financially successful guy (opinionated, bossy) who was smokingly hot attractive (worldly, insecure, and self-admitted narcissist) that was smart as a whip (moody, depressed, lacking friendships). And I desperately wanted him back. Even though I’m almost 50, I was simply blinded by the chemical reaction.
Thanks Evan for hitting the nail on the head (or taking the proverbial 2×4 and hitting me on the side of the head). 🙂
helene says
christine#38 Thanks for your comments – at least I know I’m not mad! n The ironic thing is, I don’t have anything against the “intimacy on the third date” thing – if I’m attracted to a guy, I would also have the expectation that he should be making a move at that point and would be put off if he didn’t… the problem arises when, as per the topic of this thread,you attempt to date the guys who are potentially suitable but not scoring high at all on the chemistry scale. Either you’d have to lie to them (“I’m old fashioned that way”) – I’m not! – or you try to avoid intimacy by rushing home early or staying in crowded surroundings… but you certainly can’t tell someone “I think you’re potentially a suitable long term mate but as yet I feel no attraction to you, can we go for ice cream?”
Jadafisk says
A lot of people seem to be proponents of this kind of outcome, why not be honest about the consequences? The guy *might* be fine with it.
Gem says
Karl #30
When I said “complacent,” I didn’t mean we no longer complimented each other or appreciated each other. I meant, we accepted that no matter how much be both would have wanted chemistry/passion, we weren’t a match that clicked in that way.
Also, to me, chemistry is not being hot over the best looking guy, or wanting to have sex with someone soon after I lay eyes on them. Chemistry, to me, is when for whatever reason, I *click* with someone. We *get* each other and our personalities compliment each other and a connection falls into place easily. It’s actually more mental for me than physical.
I’ve had chemistry with women who became my best friends. Chemistry is not always sexual. But when it is a romantic edeavor, it can be passionate, sexual, and encourage infatuation and/or love….
I’ve also known many men that I find physically attractive and who have great personalities, but that doesn’t mean I feel, or could feel that kind of connection with any of them by just *trying*.
Just as I’ve met many women who, for whatever reason, I don’t click with and the friendships didn’t grow or were limited, or were good, but we didn’t *hit it off* like others.
jack says
Maybe there is just too much going on in the busy, fractured day of a typical American. Too many options, and no time to weigh those options = only opting for OBVIOUS choices.
Think about how it worked just a century ago – you grew up in a small town, you knew the potential husbands/wives that were available mostly from a young age, and you had quite a bit of time to come to a conclusion about what to do from the limited choices.
Now, with internet dating and maximized leisure time, there is more time than ever to ponder the APPARENT endless choices.
Although, are they really that endless? Maybe busy modern life only makes us think that we have endless choices. All those guys/gals you click through on dating sites and think “maybe…”. All those people you meet in bars and other gatherings where they’re “okay, I suppose…”
Whether you believe in God or Evolution, it seems clear that the human mind is not equipped to handle a universe of decisions.
A thought experiment:
Imagine two ice cream shops in different parts of the same city: One that has 12 flavors and the other that has 1,000 flavors. Go and ask the patrons exiting each store if they feel they made a good choice and are pleased with the flavor they selected.
My suspicion is that people exiting the small shop will be more certain they made a good choice. The people exiting the shop with 1,000 flavors may LIKE their choice, but I will bet that they will be more ambivalent.
Yet, would anyone deliberately go into the small shop if the big one was right next to it? Probably not, because people like options. Therefore, if options exist, people will hesitate longer to make a commitment. Enough options, and you get decision paralysis.
Eventually, the excessive options break down a system that once worked, and you end up with many unmarried people, since there is always a chance that a better deal could be just around the corner.
Girl has a big nose? Next! Guy is not tall enough? Next! Why settle for such flaws when a better match is bound to come along sooner or later.
Hibz says
Sooo true!!
Sharon says
@ Jack
The problem is all men act like nice guys for the first few months. The few men I know are nice are friends I’ve known for a quite and while and thus wouldn’t want to lead them on. So how do you know when you have a genuinely nice guy?
jack says
It’s not that hard.
Date exclusively, indicate that you are marriage-minded, and save the sex until you have a lot of personality-oriented chemistry. The physical chemistry will come from that.
If you’re looking for butterflies AND and amazing/nice guy, well, that’s probably 10% or less of all men, and they will go to the hottest AND sweetest girls.
The rest of women will have to compromise a fair amount on either physical chemistry or character.
Sharon says
I usually get about 10 -15 new emails on my dating profile a week. Obviously there’s not enough time to get to know all of them. And aside from avoiding profiles that explicitly ask for sex only, shirtless pics, guys with sunglasses, and guys posing with other girls there’s no way to really know someone character.
The options are choosing to contact the men that are the most interesting me to physically and intellectually and then weeding them out from there.
OR
Eschewing the guys I’m interested in because if I’m interested every women is interested and therefore they must be have too many options to be considered a relationship oriented guy. So the next step would be to divvy up the remaining men between not gonna happen and the meh column. And then sift through the meh column to find the lest meh of the meh. And then date them in the hopes that my guesstimation of their lesser desirability is correct and will correlate with an increased relationship orientation and their all around improved character.
Goldie says
@ Christine #41:
“And if you do feel chemistry quickly when meeting someone online, can you really trust it when you don’t even know that person?”
This has been my latest adventure that left me all shaken up and too depressed to eat. I met a guy online a couple of months ago – I didn’t feel anything, he didn’t feel anything, we could’ve said “fine” and gone our separate ways, or remained in touch as colleagues (which was what I wanted, since we do the same thing for a living) or whatever. Instead, he gets me to come out and meet again, and this time, he really turns on the cute… by the time I walked out of there, I was insanely attracted to the guy and could not wait to meet again. (apparently, by the time he walked out of there, he had another woman waiting at a bar next door, but that’s a story for another day.) First time this has ever happened to me with someone I’d met online. You’re absolutely right, this is counterfeit chemistry. I thought I was old and experienced enough that this wouldn’t happen to me, and boy was I wrong. Next time I feel chemistry on second date, I will absolutely be questioning my own feelings, because it.just.does.not.make.sense to be head over heels in love with a stranger.
@ Jack #46, While you’re probably right about a century ago, the “thousand flavors problem” already existed when I was in college (80s). And these were real, live people that you met in real life, not online strangers with cute photoshopped profile pics. In the three years that I dated before I met my (now ex-) husband, I said “Next” a lot… IMO it is a part of figuring out who you are, what works for you, and what kind of person you would work the best for.
I don’t think the old system has ever quite worked though, as you say it did. Cheating was rampant even when I was growing up – even when I started at my first job (granted, that was in Eastern Europe, but still) I worked with a lot of couples in their early 30s that had been married for ten years, and there was a huge amount of cheating going on. Now it’s right up there with picking your nose in public, but I remember when it was cool to be married and have someone on the side. For this change alone, I prefer the present situation to the good old days.
jack says
Perhaps the best option for most is to find someone with the most compatible values system, especially conflict-resolution style, and that does not repulse you physically.
At least you will be spared heartache and drama. There is much to be said for a nice, boring life. It is American narcissism that demands that our lives be epic adventures.
Most of human history has been centered around survival. It is only these last hundred years or so where a small portion of people in Western Civilization have had so many options.
Jadafisk says
“you will be spared heartache and drama”… unless that man wants to know/remember what it is to desire or be desired instead of merely non-repulsed/non-repulsive. Men have options, too.
Anna says
Love how it’s written, I appreciate, fully understand and AGREE with the “boldness” of this idea (given the kind of ideas and information in our modern media, movies and stuff)….but I have a question that seems pretty serious to me: what about ground-shaking, amazing, “I’ll never forget” kind of chemistry? I don’t want to be the moody philosopher around here…but I’ve had that…and I’m sure I’m not the only one. It’s nothing compared to my current real, healthy and fulfilling, amazing, long-term relationship with this amazing guy that I’m with now….but where in the “shelves” of my conscience should I decide to put the mind-blowing, “write-a-novel-about”, full of chemistry, TOXIC (though it went both-ways) “Relationship” with this other guy? What does it mean? How should I think about it? Is it really silly, random, common and…useless, as it may seem from this article? I’d really appreciate your reply. I’m asking because I think the ground-shaking chemistry I’ve had before is getting in the way of how I see love in general, in the way of how I give advice and in the way of fully appreciating my guy. I hate the doubts, he doesn’t deserve them
Justin says
I am a 33 year old man, and I met the love of my life when I was 23 years old. We attended the same University, and we happened to be attending the same dreaded Health class when I met her. I had only spoken to her a few times when the semester first started, but at that time I was interested in another girl who, at the time, was everything that fit the definition of “my dream girl”. Her name was Aleana and she was a breathtaking, blue-eyed blond from Moscow, Russia. I became friends with her, and we shared many conversations, spanning from where she lived in Russia to what her future goals were. She was breathtaking and her Russian accent was subtle and incredibly sexy… and on top of that, she was a genuinely sweet person. I was completely head-over-heals for her! Then I found out that she was a semi-professional tennis player who had become well known among tennis fans. Unfortunately, due to a career ending injury, she decided to attend school instead since her injury was not likely to completely heal. I was enamored by her beauty, and somehow I mustered up the courage to ask if she would like to spend some time together – just the two of us. Desparate for a much needed a break from schoolwork, she accepted my offer, and we went to the movies a few times, which happened to be her “favorite thing to do”. Confident that she was interested in me, I took her out to eat at a beautiful restaurant, which clued her in that I was interested in a relationship (which I thought was quite obvious), but she was strictly interested in keeping it “a simple friendship”. I could tell that the dinner quickly became the cliché, awkward date… but I pretended to be happy with the arrangement, and we continued to remain friends. Obviously, I was a bit heartbroken since I was so enamored by her, and I certainly wasn’t interested in dating anyone else at that time. If it haden’t been for that disappointing outcome, I would have never found my true soulmate.
When I first met the girl who later became my girlfriend, my attraction to her (if I were to put it on a scale of 1-10) was about a 5. We went on a couple of dates and occasionally spent time together doing very practical, mundane things, such as running errands and grocery shopping. We really enjoyed each other’s company, and it wasn’t long before I began to find her more beautiful and more sexy than ever before. We clicked. We laughed together, and we began to finish each other’s sentences. As I fell in love with her, and eventually grew to love her with all my heart, I loved her for who she was. I loved her good traits and I loved her flaws. My initial attraction to her was very subjective. The original “5” that I rated her attractiveness at eventually became a solid 10. When you truly love someone with all of your heart, mind, body, and soul – they will be the most beautiful person in the world to you. Even my Russian friend Alaeana’s beauty was pale in comparison to my beautiful Danielle. I loved her so much, I found myself tearing up when I looked into her beautiful baby-blue eyes. She literally melted my heart. I could look at any model or celebrity, and she was the only woman who I could think about. Ten years later, I still get weak in the knees when I see her – even after a brief absence. She fills the void I had in my heart, and I love her – the real love… You may not be familiar with the Bible, but it has the perfect definition of love. So many people only know selfish love, but real love is everlasting and doesn’t change… and it is undescribably beautiful:
“Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice in wrong doing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes in all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.