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Here’s where the real trouble starts…I decided to give things a try with my best friend of 11 years. He is a great guy and has been a wonderful, supportive friend over the years. He is, and possibly always has been, in love with me. I do love him, but only as a friend. Evan, I am tired. I am tired of all these failed relationships; tired of moving in and out with people; and tired of the lack of stability in my, and my 15-year-old son’s life. I moved in with my best friend and told him we should be a couple. He jumped all over it. We are even building a new house together, which he is financing.
The problem is that I have zero attraction for him. The thought of him touching me is repulsive to me. I’ve told him that I am not a sexual person and that I don’t want to have sex with him, or any other guy for that matter. This is a lie. I am sexual and I do want to have a great sex life – just not with him. My son is everything to me. I want him to have some stability in his life. This man can provide this for us. Before, we were moving almost yearly, with no medical benefits, etc. Now we can have a beautiful home, and all the other wonderful benefits that come along with this great friend who is financially stable. Am I a horrible person? This guy really loves us…I don’t know what to do. —Elizabeth
Dear Elizabeth,
To arrive at your answer, all we have to do is flip this over. Let’s say…
You have a longstanding crush on your best guy friend.
There’s no way a guy is going 40 years without sex.
You’ve watched him go out with all the wrong women over the years and turn to you with his problems. You know you’d treat him better than any of these other women if he’d only give you a chance.
After his latest devastating (but predictable) breakup, he tells you that maybe he’d like to give a relationship with you a chance. He knows you’ve always loved him and he agrees that it would make sense to be with a woman who has stuck by him through thick and thin. At the very least, you’re stable and will treat him well.
Oh, but there’s one hitch: he has zero attraction for you.
The thought of him touching you repulses him.
He’s told you he’s not a sexual person, but that’s a lie. He’s highly sexual and wants to have a great sex life — just not with you.
But after all he’s gone through, it only seems sensible to marry you. After all, his son really needs a mother figure and since you make more than he does, he’ll be able to upgrade his home, his lifestyle and his future all by tying the knot with you.
So, Elizabeth, is he a horrible person?
I won’t answer that for you, because I don’t think doing a bad thing makes someone a bad person, but I will say that if a man were to marry you under those circumstances, we might very well conclude that:
a) He’s selfish — He’s failed at relationships and sees you as his safety school. And even though he finds sex with you to be disgusting, you should just be happy to be with him as a platonic life partner. Right?
b) He’s a liar — To begin a relationship under false pretenses, such as “I don’t like sex” is really a poor foundation for a future, wouldn’t you agree? I would expect that the person who really likes sex will seek it out in some form or another. Which leads us to the biggest problem with this scenario…
c) He’s setting himself up for failure – If a sexual person denies himself sex within a marriage, it’s going to come out in either an affair or an online porn addiction. There’s no way a guy is going 40 years without sex.
And neither should you.
So unless you want to be the woman who is later considered a selfish liar and cheater, you should politely recuse yourself from this relationship.
Maybe you can possibly preserve your friendship because he’s so whipped on you that he can’t think straight.
But if I were advising him, I’d tell him to stay far away. You may not be a bad person, but, make no mistake, you’re about to do a very bad thing.
SK says
Wait…you’re trying to solve the lack of stability in your son’s life by shacking up with YET ANOTHER GUY? Considering you’re a parent, you should have waited longer to move in and out of multiple boyfriends’ houses, don’t you think? Maybe find some stability without a man, and teach your son that he comes first in your life. And now you want to hurt your best friend, too? Listen, you have three more years until your son is 18. Focus on him instead of chasing one guy after another, trying to provide “stability.” I know it’s hard being single, and especially being a single parent, but you have a responsibility to your son. You can date all you want after your son is grown.
If you can’t provide your son a stable home without the financial backing of a boyfriend, you need a financial planner.
Steve says
The problem is that I have zero attraction for him. The thought of him touching me is repulsive to me. I’ve told him that I am not a sexual person and that I don’t want to have sex with him, or any other guy for that matter. This is a lie. I am sexual and I do want to have a great sex life — just not with him. My son is everything to me. I want him to have some stability in his life. This man can provide this for us. Before, we were moving almost yearly, with no medical benefits, etc. Now we can have a beautiful home, and all the other wonderful benefits that come along with this great friend who is financially stable. Am I a horrible person? This guy really loves us…I don’t know what to do. —Elizabeth
Yes.
You are using someone who loves you. No disrespect. Just do the right thing and break up with him. You are making a fool out of him.
Fred says
Dear Elizabeth
Im so glad to learn how you finally truly feel about our relationship and how much you care that I loved you 11 years. I have since adopted your son, set up a trust for his college and law school, paid of your credit cards, amd eliminated your debt with a loan shark/street pharmacist from your past. After its all settled in I realize all will be ok. Its odd now I dont feel so bad that over the holidays I got your little sister pregnant. I wasnt sure how to break the news, but now I feel vindicated with very little guilt.
morgan says
Right on Evan.
I have a man in my life who loves me and I know would jump at the chance to be in a relationship with me (even though he’s been with someone for a long time). We are exes from 15 years ago. I would have a great life with him because we have shared friends, we understand eachother, he’d have a child with me, he’s financially secure etc. etc. BUT I am not sexually attracted to him at all, in fact like Elizabeth I find the idea of sex with him a total turn off (and I’ve been there before so know it for a fact). And this is the reason why I won’t be with him. It wouldn’t be fair on him.
Yes Elizabeth, you’re being selfish, mercenary some might say. But you have to live with yourself.
Cheryl says
I’m going to come off as sounding cold here but the cold hard fact of the matter is that YOU, Elizabeth, need to grow up and start providing the stability that you and your 15 year old son need. YOU are responsible for that and not anyone else. If it was just you I wouldn’t even comment but what kind of an example are you setting for your son?
Time to grow up, girl.
Karl R says
Elizabeth said: (original post)
“My son is everything to me. I want him to have some stability in his life.”
“I am tired of all these failed relationships; tired of moving in and out with people; and tired of the lack of stability”
If this had been your entire message, I would have some very simple advice for you:
1. Get an affordable two-bedroom apartment for you and your son. (It probably won’t be fancy, but it will be yours.)
2. Get medical insurance. (It might not be great insurance, but it will be yours.)
3. Take a three or four year break from dating.
That course of action would allow you to accomplish all of your stated goals. You would have medical insurance. You wouldn’t be moving in and out. You would have time to focus on the one relation that you can not afford to fail at (your relationship with your son).
You chose a different course of action.
Elizabeth said: (original post)
“I moved in with my best friend and told him we should be a couple.”
Instead, you entered another romantic relationship (under circumstances which ensure that it will fail) and simultaneously moved in with the man.
And you explained why you chose a course of action which was doomed to repeat the same pattern that you’d like to avoid.
Elizabeth said: (original post)
“This man can provide [stability] for us.”
“Now we can have a beautiful home, and all the other wonderful benefits”
If you want stability, learn to provide it for yourself.
And is a beautiful home (and all the other benefits) more important than stability in your son’s life?
Elizabeth said: (original post)
“Am I a horrible person?”
I would say you’re unwise.
You have repeatedly jumped from one relationship to another, and in an effort to break the cycle, you’re jumping into another relationship.
Think it through.
RW says
Elizabeth, don’t do it! Or rather, undo it while you still can. I’m really sorry you’ve had such disappointing relationships. It’s terribly demoralizing and this new solution must seem like a godsend but you’ll end up hurting him and debasing yourself. The fact that you’re questioning your actions says to me that you already know you may be in the wrong. You are better than this.
Unless you’ve made it very clear that you see him only as a friend, are not attracted to him and will likely never be, you are being very unfair to him. You are essentially using him for his resources while giving him the hope that one day you will be as deeply in love with him as he is with you. If you care about him, (as he’s your best friend you probably do), don’t put him through this. There’s nothing worse than being in a relationship with someone who finds you repulsive, especially when he doesn’t know this very important fact.
At the very least, you owe him the truth. Good luck!
nathan says
You know, I get the exhaustion. The sense that it “always falls apart.” And also the sense that you’ll “never find anyone better.” I have been there. Many have been there.
But that’s exactly the time to take a look at yourself, and your patterns.
I doubt you’ll find much support for your current decision. Frankly, your friend deserves better than to be lied to and settled for in the way you’ve described it. You’re just using him for the stability you can’t seem to find on your own, or with another.
You’re really risking this friendship here. It might already be too late to break up with him without some damage, but the longer you wait, the worse it will get.
Lisa says
Elizabeth, what makes you think this relationship will work out any better than the rest of them have? Why don’t you use this time and do some self-reflecting. Maybe then you will find a real relationship where there is mutual love and respect.
SS says
Agree with everyone else so far… move on because you’re not being fair to this guy.
As for the rest of the story, is it possible that the reason you’ve had so many relationships end is because you move too fast? Are you moving in with all of these guys or most of them? That’s a big step, and for it to have happened more than once with a man who hasn’t been a boyfriend that long indicates that you are jumping too quickly into such situations.
And how is your son being affected by this? I assume that he is also moving in and out of random men’s homes. That can’t be good for him either.
Bettina says
There are lots of gay men who get married to women and don’t feel attracted to their wives. And back in the day, when women were bartered in marriage, I suspect it was a very common scenario for the woman to be repulsed by her husband.
But these setups can be stable if both parties understand the relationship as a material union or if there is some external pressure (society, church, threat of stoning) to stay together despite physical dissatisfaction.
Your situation doesn’t sound like any of these.
I disagree with Evan on one point. There are men who can and do go without. It’s not typical, granted. It isn’t clear what your friend’s motivation is in agreeing to this arrangement. At some point over the years he must have gleaned that you aren’t that into him. Maybe he really wants to help. Dunno.
In general, though, I’m for women getting out there and carrying their own weight. Which usually means giving up the big house on the hill if you can’t afford it. What you gain for relinquishing that dream is integrity, which feels so much better.
I’m also for both parents supporting their children, at the least financially, if that’s all they can muster. Sounds like your son’s dad is long out of the picture, as in, no child support. Perhaps you should track him down.
Adam says
Bettina,
You sound like a nice person. But I have to be politically correct and brutally honest with you. Evan is right. No guy is going to go 40 years without sex. There is no reason in this day and age we would do this. Guys who you think are “going without,” are not really going without. If you are a woman who is not sleeping with your husband, at the VERY least he has a massive porn collection. At the VERY least. If you aren’t sleeping with your husband and you discover this, you should celebrate. You should be extremely happy, because typically what happens in these scenarios is the guy has an affair or multiple affairs. The “wife” and her friends think the guy is going without and he, behind her back is having sex with other women. If your man is not having sex with you, he is having sex with someone else.
Another thing Bettina. Evan has said this and I will say it. Men are NOT mind readers. You get it. We don’t get hints. We don’t have a crystal ball where we can figure out what you women are thinking. There is no way he could have “gleaned” anything unless she came out and told him she wasn’t that interested in him. She told him she wanted to have a relationship with him. So he is going to think she is into him. He is in love with her and believes she is in love with him, because she has said she wants to be his wife.
Elizabeth is simply using and manipulating the poor guy.
Gem says
Elizabeth,
IF this guy is truly your “best friend,” and has been “wonderful and supportive” over the years, then I ask you: How can you do this to him?
Don’t let your fear and insecurity about your future turn you into a woman who would use her best friend for what he can provide and arrogantly think that he’ll be tickled pink just to have your presence in his life without getting anything in return. How little you must respect him?!
You’re about to make a huge mistake and put your son through more heartache, and…..lose a friend and your self respect in the process.
Lucy says
Well said, Gem.
And please consider that you are teaching your son how women treat men. By being duplicitous.
I sincerely hope that your son doesn’t fall into the same pattern that his male role model is doing, but if he does, you may have played your part. And how will you live with that?
Sharon says
Elizabeth, I think its really admirable that you want to commit someone for the benefit of your son.
Lisa wrote on the List Post
“My parents have been married for 42 years My mom said my dad had integrity and she knew he would be a loyal husband and father. And he is- we couldn’t ask for better.”¨Is it any surprise that the marriage rate is steadily declining?”¨”
Elizabeth is doing just this. Finding a good husband and father, It’s just in previous generations it was more acceptable for women not to be attracted to their husbands. My grandmother was relieved she was after my grandfather got a pacemaker because she was finally relieved of her “wifely duties”. She would never describe the marriage as unhappy she would never divorce him. But sex was about baby making not passion.
Most women I know or either attracted or not attracted. If dating the many attractive but unavailable men is foolish and dating available but unattractive men is selfish what is the other option?ӬӬ
Much of Jack’s ire is against women for not appreciating less attractive men. But how does one go about that. Karl has suggested that people try to adjust their level of attraction through mindfulness. Evan I would love to hear some advice on this.
Ӭ(Maybe instead of trying to convert the gay Evangelicals can repurpose and rebrand themselves saving marriage by making women into short bald overweight men attractive to women through shock therapy.)Ӭ
Jenny Ravelo says
“Most women I know or either attracted or not attracted. If dating the many attractive but unavailable men is foolish and dating available but unattractive men is selfish what is the other option?”¨”¨”
What about marrying a guy who is in between? What about a guy who is attractive AND available?
I’m not so sure marriage back then was any happier just because more women settled for men because they had no option. What I suspect is that people talked less about such matters.
Daphne says
My ex told me- after a good long period of marriage and me wondering why he was not very interested in sex- that he thought of me as his best friend, but I really wasn’t sexy. So he had had sex w other women.
Do you think I enjoyed hearing this ? To put it more politely than he deserves, no.
My voice is added to the chorus: don’t marry this man ! Please.
Laura says
Wow, Elizabeth, look over your entire dating and relationship history and search for the common denominator. It’s YOU!
Why would you lie to and manipulate your best friend? What will you have left when you destroy that relationship?
Helen says
Why does sex have to be the be-all and end-all of a relationship?
I would assert that Elizabeth is not necessarily doing something terrible. From what I could tell of her letter, she has not promised her male friend ANYTHING. People can be housemates without having sex. She just needs to make sure she is doing her fair share. It is her business, and his. If he is happy to have her and her son living with him, with the benefits they provide (companionship, maybe meals, shared chores, etc.), then that’s their business, and none of ours.
There are so many different arrangements of relationships that work out there. Not every one has to revolve around sex. Not even marriages, for crying out loud – let’s be realistic here. As long as both parties are happy, it is fine if people base relationships on practical matters.
RustyLH says
NO No No.
You don’t understand men Helen. I can tell you what is going through that guy’s mind. He sees this beautiful woman he has longed for for many years. he has been in her life in some manner for over a decade. He undoubtedly knows many of her boyfriends. he has undoubtedly heard many locker room stories about what a wild cat she was in bed. Probably angered him to hear some jerk speak so flippantly about her sex life, while he himself wants to be her knight in shining armor…a man that would never tell. Since he was her “friend” she probably also let slip things about these guys. Maybe when she was talking to other women and didn’t know he was within ear shot. Like, “why do you stay with that jerk?” “Because he’s great in bed.” Whatever, the point is, he likely knows that with at least some of those guys, she had a vey healthy sex life. However, he also likely believes that she is now beat down. That she finally learned what creeps these guys were. She has now recognized that he is her knight in shining armor and is finally allowing herself to give him a shot. Yes, this is likely what he is thinking. I’ve known many men like him. The guy who loves a girl so much he will wait for her to finally wake up to the fact that he’s he best guy for her. And…he does want sex from her. So why would he accept her excuse? Because h is her knight in shining armor. He is going to rescue her. And this is just one more thing she has to e rescued from. See, he doesn’t believe that she just doesn’t want to have sex with him. Nor does he believe what she says. He believes that those bad guys he dated messed with her mind by using her, and so for now, she is turned off to sex. he believes that if he just continues to be a great guy, her wounds will heal, and she will return to being a mentally healthy human with a healthy, natural sex drive. At some point he’s going to want to have sex.
OK, so here’s the bottom line. He;s mature, she’s not. She doesn’t realize that in all likelihood, she has been running into guys that learned how to run game. Women should look up on Youtube for the videos teaching this. And then remember that many men are resorting to this stuff. I hear so many women claim it wouldn’t work on them and yet the guys who are good at it would prove you wrong. The thing is you wouldn’t even know it is being done to you. One guy who teaches it actually used it on Jessica Alba with her knowing he was going to do it and she simply went…”WOW.” I thought, no way is he pulling this off. Now, to be fair, he did it and then she went “WOW and they ended it there, but you could actually see the mastery in what he did, and so did she which is why she said, “WOW.” It was simple really. He started off by saying this stuff won’t work in a situation like this because she knows what he is doing but he carried on just talking as if he wasn’t even going to do it and then probably at the point she thought he wasn’t going to, he turned to her and said, OK, without mentioning your looks, or your job, tell me 3 reasons why you think guys would be attracted to you. It is so slick what he did, because first he took her two most powerful arrows out of her quiver. Then put her into the mode of having to prove that she has value. She thought about it for a minute and then went, “WOW.” This stuff works. These guys go and pick up dozens of girls they just met using this stuff and post it on YouTube to let you get a taste of it and prove it works. Even girls with boyfriends. One guy got sued for putting the video up. The girl admits she has a boyfriend but he keeps on, eventually getting kisses,walking hand in hand, and a date. Of course he wasn’t serious about her. She was an advertisement. Then her boyfriend finds out about the YT video. So now he has the same video up but this is the only one where her face is now blocked out.
You know the old saying that if a man ever figured women out, he could write a book and be set for life? Well these guys did it. And they teach it. And they even had them on Dr. Phil, and proved it works. Dr. Phil provided them with a few young guys who then went into a night club being secretly video taped and they struck out in flaming fashion. they were basically being nice guys. Not using weird corny lines. Doing what most women says works..just going up and introducing themselves, and saying hello. Then just small talking with the women. Not one perked up. Then they got to go through the school these guys conduct. And then went back into the same club many weeks later and scored phone numbers.
What these guys did was learn what worked and what did not by using the scientific method. Many many men have bough these books, CD’s, DVD’s, paid for the actual classes, became masters themselves and start their own schools, etc… You see the same themes running through their videos.
My point here is that these guys learned how to tap into a woman’s brain and play it like a musical instrument. But here’s the problem. It’s going to be exhausting doing this. When do you get to stop? Answer IMHO? Never. You got her through game, you will have to keep her by using game. Some disagree but then they aren’t looking at the bigger picture, that while this method works so good for getting girls, these guys don’t always keep the girl. So IMHO, and I would love to hear Evan’s take on this, but my take is that by tapping into what works to cause the right signals and basically bombard the woman with these, the woman in some way almost becomes like a crack addict. He overcame her resistance using these techniques…what makes you think he can just stop doing what got her in the first place? SO here she is, with a guy that her initial instinct likely said no to, but oh the excitement, “Mr. Bad Boy was so confident, and had this amazing ability to always say the right thing…he swept me off my feet.” Then one day he is tired of the effort, or she is tired of the same old stuff. She has become immune to it and now the cracks begin to show. “Why is this happening again?” she whines? It’s simple…you fell for game. you in fact have had so many guys running game on you which is actually fun and pleasurable for women or it wouldn’t work…so how is ole honest Mr. Reliable who respects women to much to even learn game, supposed to compete with all of that excitement.
Of course she can’t stand the thought of this guy touching her. She is used to game being run on her before she can get in the mood. The crack addict needs her fix. She knows crack is not good for her and vows to stay out of it, but oh boy does her life feel boring now. It’s Mr. Excitement with his playfully cocky, or playfully confident game that she craves, and doesn’t even know it.
The bottom line is that this guy is a great guy…a GOOD MAN, and this flaky chick doesn’t deserve him. She is not good enough for him. The fact that she doesn’t know this does not make it not true. She’s not good enough for him.
The truth is, I and many men hate that game, that even we must play even just s little bit. You can’t just use what these schools call the direct approach. Read that as the basic honest but no game plan approach. It works outside of the US, but will crash and burn in flaming fashion here. It is one of the primary reasons for my preference.
Evan Marc Katz says
I will respond briefly, since it’s after work, and I don’t have a 2000 word manifesto in me.
As usual, Rusty, you have many valid points that are invalidated by one glaring error. You don’t have to play games to have “game”. That’s a huge misconception – generally from guys who don’t have “game”. Search the blog for the phrase “nice guy with balls”. That’s what women want. Not an aloof, cocky, arrogant, negging game player. They PUT UP with that guy because he’s interesting, confident and attractive, but they don’t WANT him. Same way men PUT UP with crazy behavior from women if they’re hot. Do you WANT crazy? No. At a certain point, you want sane… after years of being criticized, micromanaged and disrespected.
And so, as a guy who has done plenty well for himself without ever reading a PUA manual, the only thing I had in my arsenal was the fact that I was really confident, liked myself, had opinions and boundaries, was a direct communicator, and had a sense of humor. Oh, and I treated my girlfriends REALLY well – the way a “nice guy” would. But I wasn’t a “nice guy” for the reasons I just outlined. Go read “No More Mr. Nice Guy” because you seem to have too much intelligence and potential to believe that you have to go to South America to find a good woman, or that you have to be a dick to do well with American women.
BB says
This is sad.
If any human (female or male) implies that they want to move forward with another human in a committed relationship (she said that), move into a home together (she allowed that), try to build something emotionally stronger (she is doing that), acknowledges that the other person loves their child (she knows this for fact), tells another human they don’t want/need/desire something that maybe essential to humans (she ACTIVELY told him she does not like sex (her words) and she states here she does and is “repulsed” by the idea of being physically intimate with a man she ASKED to move forward and build an intimate relationship with knowing that this man has always loved her.
Please stop acting like she is using integrity with this man. You know very well she isn’t.
We are all adults here…most of us.
p.s. sex is a healthy essential part of humans…females and males…. please stop acting like men are dirty is they can’t go 40 years without having/wanting sex…something that is a basic biological function. Likewise, women should not go 40 years without having/wanting sex either.
In case you are wondering I am a woman.
Bettina says
@14: Other common denominators might also be dating, dating men, dating men in a certain age range, dating American men, etc.
One question: Isn’t the poster doing what is recommended in the “Settling” book? If not, would like some clarification on the distinction. Not seeing one.
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey, Bettina, maybe you should read the “settling” book for yourself so you can learn the difference. I can tell you that the distinction is obvious to everyone else who’s read past the cover.
Goldie says
Good god, what kind of an example would this set for Elizabeth’s son? what would it teach him about people and relationships? not to mention, friendships? He is at an age where he re-evaluates everyone and everything, and seeing this marriage(?) unfold, presumably for his financial benefit, will leave him jaded for life. For that reason alone, I’d pass.
If the friend is able and willing to help financially, great! Maybe a no-interest, long-term loan would be easier on you both than a sham marriage.
Lisa says
Sharon, my parents were and are very attracted to each other. My mom has way too much integrity and class to use anybody, least of all her husband.
RW says
@Helen
I agree 100% with all your points. But the argument only works when both parties are aware of the situation and choose to be in it. That is not what I got from Elizabeth’s letter. Being housemates is one thing but saying “we should be a couple” is another. It involves much more than being platonic housemates. She has also been less than honest about her desire, or lack thereof, to have sex with him. As long as he understands and accepts that they are not sleeping together because she is repulsed by him and not because sex just does not interest her, there is no problem. Otherwise, as Steve pointed out, she is making a fool out of him.
Liz says
Agreed, Evan. Bettina, read the book! It’s really interesting. And it’s not even close to advocating what this woman describes.
Dory says
Why don’t you tell him the truth and see if he still wants to marry you. Tell him that you are not sexually attracted to him but you would love to have his companionship and security and see if he is still interested. However, don’t add that you don’t like sex becuase that would be the lie. As long as you are honest- let him make the decision.
Bettina says
@19 and 21: I’ve read parts of it and a lot about it. But it doesn’t interest me as a concept and I have a boyfriend of many years–my time with him has been the opposite of settling and so I don’t need to go that route. Maybe if things with him go south and I really feel the need for a new approach. Thanks for the suggestion, though!
Bettina says
OK, to be clear: The answer to the question the title poses, “Am I Settling…,” is no. She is not settling, as is recommended. She is doing something else that is not recommended.
BeenThruTheWars says
Just to play devil’s advocate — what if you married a man you WERE attracted to, but who didn’t have nearly as many fine qualities as this one apparently does, and then for whatever medical reason you discovered after marriage that sex wasn’t going to be in the cards for you?
A friend of mine’s husband got prostate cancer in his early forties. Because of the surgery, he was no longer able to have intercourse. My friend would have been okay with that (they’d been married ten years) if he’d been willing to enjoy and explore other kinds of marital pleasures, but he refused. He cut off everything, including affection, because of his own psychological issues post-surgery. This could happen to any couple.
Elizabeth doesn’t say why she isn’t attracted to her friend; is he physically repulsive to her? Is it something fixable (like him losing weight, for instance)? Is it just because she’s never thought of him “that way”? Are expressions of affection repulsive to her, as well? Holding hands, scratching his back, having him give you a neckrub when you’re tense – if those things will also be repugnant, then by all means, bail on this relationship. But if you can see “going there” in at least the affection department, there is a chance that the rest will come in time.
I personally believe that there’s nothing wrong with companionate marriages. My parents have been in one for the better part of sixty years. They’re incredibly devoted to each other, but they sleep in separate bedrooms and I bet they haven’t had sex in thirty years. The arrangement suits the two of them. If Elizabeth and her friend get along great, love doing the same things together, can be kind and loving toward each other, then they’ll have a lot more going for them than my friend and her husband did. They wound up getting divorced after their sexual relationship ended, because his complete withdrawal from any kind of physical affection (he wouldn’t even hold hands with her at the movies anymore!) wounded her, and they found they didn’t really like each other as platonic friends. It sounds like Elizabeth does like this man, and love him as a friend, so they might have a chance together.
The other possibility is to have a frank talk with him and discuss the possibility of an open marriage. I have several friends in marriages like that, and all seem very content with their choice. It wouldn’t be my personal preference, but it works for them.
Nadia says
PHEW!!
Evan I gotta tell you, I got *really* nervous reading that blog post… I’d picked it up through your facebook page where you’d posted people were butchering your stuff, and so I was really worried you were going to advise that she marry him… whilst I was reading it every part of me was screaming ‘No!’ even though I normally love your blog posts (as remember I was expecting, at this point, for you to tell her to stay with him – because of the facebook post) – I’m SO relieved to have read what you wrote – sums up perfectly what every cell was screaming (although it wasn’t screaming it as eloquently as you put it ; )
Sex is the thing that separates our friendships from romantic relationships and is a time that is just about the couple, in that moment, connecting… it’s vital to healthy & happy marriages, IMHO, and it’s so often at the crux of the cause and effect accumulation which results in the breakdown of relationships… Thank you for continuing to write blogs that I sit there reading and saying ‘yes’ to!
Helen says
Nadia #26, in general you have the right idea, but – you write “Sex is the thing that separates our friendships from romantic relationships…”
Marriage, over time, becomes much more about friendship than romance. That’s just the truth; sorry if it isn’t romantic or appealing. But when you grow older, you may be surprised how appealing and even essential friendship becomes, especially if your spouse is your closest and dearest friend.
BeenThruTheWars #25 is right about companionate marriages (which my parents have as well). I would actually say to Elizabeth: if this guy is your best friend, maybe he is meant to be your lifelong partner. For centuries (and even in many societies today), marriage has NOT been about romance. A steamy romance has never been the best predictor of a successful marriage. Don’t we wish it were the case, because all humans are romantics as far as I can tell. But romance is never what sustains in the long run.
RW #20, thanks for backing up my earlier stance. I agree that Elizabeth needs to be straightforward – in a kind way – with her friend. It won’t be easy, but it can be done.
maria says
Elizabeth terrifies me!!! I think her REAL problem is that she is looking for a “Sugar-Daddy!” I agree that she is a terrible example for her son!! She needs to stop trying to find a man to make her life perfect. SHE NEEDS TO DO IT HERSELF!
I can see her son spending the rest of his life believing that women are using him for his money/house/health insurance with a Mom like this!
I think Elizabeth has a serious case of Cinderella disease and needs to wake up from the Fairy Tale and tell her “best friend” the TRUTH. She is using him and the relationship is DOOMED because of it.
After that, she needs to do what another poster suggested, get a 2 bedroom apartment and cheap health insurance, and FORGET ABOUT PRINCE CHARMING FOR A FEW YEARS. CONCENTRATE ON YOUR SON!
I am sorry, but this is a TERRIBLE thing you are doing to your “best friend!” Please learn how to be alone and get strong!
Marie says
It’s unfair to him and you’ll end up being unhappy anyway and in another couple years without any sex, you’ll either start cheating on him or have to leave yet another relationship.
Zann says
Correction, Elizabeth. You may feel that your son is everything to you, but your behavior demonstrates that YOU are everything to you. And somewhere along the line you got the idea that it’s up to someone else to take care of you. That’s your job. More importantly, it’s your job to take care of your son. He didn’t have a choice about getting on this particular ride with you.
All your son needs is a stable & nurturing you — and I trust that part of you is in there somewhere. You’re doing your son no favors by entering into this faux-idyllic family situation based on dishonesty. It cannot and will not last, and your son will be faced with tyet another upheaval, another move. I get it that you want to be comfortable in a stable relationship. But clearly, what you’re doing is not settling, it’s USING your best friend to make yourself comfortable and safe. He’s your default, your backup plan. I can’t think of anything more humiliating and disrespectful than to move in with a man under the falsehood that you’re a couple, when actually he repulses you sexually.
I know plenty of women who struggle very hard for long periods of time as single/sole parents with little or no outside support because they either don’t want to be with an abusive man or they don’t want to drag their kids along with them on the emotional roller coaster of serial relationships. Find a support group for other single parents trying to date. Or focus on yourself outside of a relationship to become a stronger, more independent parent for your son. And if you really value your guy friend, come clean with him and hope that he can forgive you. Either way, he’s not responsible for your discontent.
Christie Hartman says
The arguments for marrying this guy, based on the idea of companionate marriage, don’t fly with me. Just because marriage is more about partnership than it is about romance doesn’t mean sex should be unimportant or neglected. If Elizabeth and her friend mutually agreed that their arrangement would be friendship-based, then fine. But I’ll bet a fistful of dollars this dude expects more than that. He’s in love with her!
It’s these sorts of arguments that make women like Elizabeth write in with a question like this. Some of you are pretty hard on her, but she’s wrestling with what’s best for her and her kid and is questioning whether sex is all that important anyway. Why is she questioning it? Because there are always people that will say “Marriage is only about friendship anyway!”
Yes, marrying him is a TERRIBLE idea. A relationship cannot function without at least some chemistry.
And it takes two to tango: doesn’t anyone find it questionable that this guy would settle for HER, when she’s clearly not attracted to him?
Ruby says
I agree that it’s strange that Elizabeth’s friend is willing to settle for a wife who is disinterested in sex. If he is her best friend, surely he must know that she has been having and enjoying sex with her previous boyfriends. My guess is that her friend is just very happy and relieved to have finally “gotten the gal” after many years. I’d also bet that he is hoping he will be able to convert her into wanting him sexually, again over time.
But it’s all predicated on lies and desperation. She is a sexual person, she’s just using him as a security blanket, rather than doing the necessary work to find security within herself and to be able to stand on her own two feet. It’s time for her to concentrate on bettering herself through education or job training, rather than wasting time continually looking for a man to bail her out. Doing that places undue pressure on the man and the relationship. It’s also not a great example to set for her son.
What is next? Adultery when she finds herself attracted to someone else? Divorce when her husband realizes that she’ll never be sexually interested in him? Then she’s right back where she started from.
jack says
She’s not settling. She’s exploiting.
While it is true that this woman’s child deserves a better and more stable life than the mother had provided for him, it is not the responsibility of another man to live in a sexless marriage with a woman who has lied to him.
Being married to a woman whom you love, but only grudgingly has sex with you is a fate worse than death, in my opinion. And sooner or later he will figure out that the only reason she picked him is for the ‘boring’ attributes. She can only lie for so long. Besides, if she is as sexual as she says, she will probably cheat on him.
What we have here is a woman who probably has no business pursuing ANY relationship right now. Look at how self-centered she is: She is considering exploiting a man that she has lied to, and she is wondering if SHE is SETTLING????
Any person that selfish is not in a position of maturity such that they are worthy of the love and affection of a spouse.
This woman needs professional counseling.
Karl R says
Zann said: (#25)
“there’s nothing wrong with companionate marriages. My parents have been in one for the better part of sixty years. […] they sleep in separate bedrooms and I bet they haven’t had sex in thirty years.”
If I knew you in person, I would be all over that bet.
People sleep in different rooms because one keeps the other awake (snores, tosses and turns, etc).
I know a married couple that lives in adjacent apartments. One is an OCD neat-freak; the other is a clutterbug. They have an active sex life.
Go ahead. Ask your parents if they’ve had sex in the last 20 years. Let us know what they tell you.
Helen said: (#27)
“romance is never what sustains in the long run.”
I wouldn’t underestimate the role sex plays. The best analogy I’ve heard (advice one man on this blog got from his grandfather):
“Sex in a marriage is like lubrication in an engine. When it’s good, all the little flaws glide by without a problem. Without it, the smallest flaw can bring the whole thing to a screeching halt.”
Christine Hartman asked: (#31)
“doesn’t anyone find it questionable that this guy would settle for HER, when she’s clearly not attracted to him?”
He’s not here to question.
I don’t think we can assume that it is clear to him. (It probably should be, but he may be too socially inept to recognize the obvious. I have also known women whose body language could be easily misinterpreted.)
Paul says
Liz is emotionally immature and oh so selfish. I can picture her pledging her love to all these men in her past and then got bored at the two year mark. Some probably wonderful and supportive and sexually compatible.
She needs to take a hiatus from men until she gathers a sense of herself but from my own personal experience, it is rare that she will find the courage to do that. I know it is a “cookie cutter” statement but I don’t see her maturing until she is into her forties. There is something about SOME women from 34-39 that makes no sense to me. Women over 40 seem to have their stuff together.
happygirl says
To put it bluntly, I think you are very selfish and using your friend. If you had even an ounce of decency you would not have moved in with this man. You know full well that all his plans and intentions are base on his love for you…
jack says
Karl-
When you’re not analyzing me, you’re brilliant. Two spot-on posts.
my honest answer says
I agree with most of the other posters – you know this is morally wrong, and you are just hoping Evan will justify it for you by saying that you are doing it for your son. You’re not. You’re doing it for yourself, because you like his money, and using your son and the medical benefits as an excuse. Sorry, but that’s how I see it.
Bettina says
What I gather from the post is that she had her son at 22 and, it seems, has raised him by herself. We don’t know anything about her education, job skills, financial situation, or how she even came to be pregnant at what today is considered a young age. There are lots of scenarios that would lead her to see marriage to a good male friend not only her best option but a moral one. Again, we don’t know what’s going on with the guy and why he would enter into this relationship. He may be thinking that he’s getting a good deal. We just don’t know.
And come on–men lie about s*x all the time, and we don’t know what he’s told her. Maybe he’s told her that he’ll love her no matter what, even without passion, and so she thinks there’s a chance that this arrangement will work out when really he just wants to get her into his home and then pull a switcheroo–ante up or you and your son are out on the street. It’s been known to happen (heavy sarcasm).
Some other Steve says
I can see it now:
Six months hence, when Elizabeth’s “needs” kick in, she’s caught cheating while her crazy-about-her friend is home watching the kid, further crushing a nice guy.
Goldie says
@ Christie #31:
“And it takes two to tango: doesn’t anyone find it questionable that this guy would settle for HER, when she’s clearly not attracted to him?”
My guess – he thinks he can change her over time. He thinks she will come around. I’ve heard this line from so many of my guy friends… “and then I stuck around for ten years because I thought I could help her change”. What’s probably going through his mind right now is, look, she didn’t want to be a couple before, and now she says we’ll be a couple! she’s moving in with me! That’s a huge step in the right direction. Yah, right now, she says she’s not interested in sex, but that, too, may change down the road. One step at a time!
Poor guy. Brings tears to my eyes just to think of him, even though he is probably pretty darn happy right now… but for all the wrong reasons.
Terri says
Since Elizabeth states she IS a sexual person, this drive can only be sublimated for a period of time until it becomes unbearable. At some point, she will have to have an affair which is emotionally undesirable. Surely, her BF must realize – at some level – that he is physically repulsive to her. I am wondering what is going on in his mind? How long can a marriage last when even touching is unpleasant? Why does she find him repulsive?
Her 15 year old son is obviously affected by all these changes in his mother’s relationships. I think it is too late to start thinking about providing “stability” in his life. Kids are not stupid and are aware of what is happening around them.
Elizabeth needs professional counseling to help determine WHY her relationships end so quickly. Moving in for 18 – 24 months indicates a pattern that is unhealthy for her and her son. There are deeper issues that need to be addressed that will take more time than can be provided on this blog.
sephornet says
<i>Am I a horrible person?</i>
Yes.
<i>[email protected]: She’s not settling. She’s exploiting.</i>
Yes.
Christie Hartman says
Karl (34)
“He’s not here to question. I don’t think we can assume that it is clear to him. (It probably should be, but he may be too socially inept to recognize the obvious. I have also known women whose body language could be easily misinterpreted.)”
Yes, Karl, he isn’t here to question. He doesn’t need to be to illustrate my point. I brought him up because when I see people heaping criticism on the OP, I want to remind them that it takes 2 people to create a situation as ridiculous as this one. He may be too “socially inept to recognize the obvious,” but his willingness to accept her no-sex clause shows just how low his standards are. And yes, this post is about her, not him, but I like to look at the whole picture.
starthrower says
oh elizabeth, nothing good will come of this. i am a single parent of 3 and have been without a partner for pretty much all of the 8 years i have been divorced. hell yes there have been tough times but when they have been, that’s when one must dig in her heels and stand. i have been blessed with family, friends, and a church community that have always been there. you don’t have to do it alone but latching on to one man after another is not the way to go about it. maybe you have a poor track record with men because the ones you’ve been with do not see you as being in charge of your life. self-respecting men want to be needed but they don’t want to rescue. you owe it to yourself to put you and your son first and you’ll be glad you did. you risk a great deal by following through with this plan.
Ruby says
Lots of marriages are based on transaction, rather than love. I don’t agree with it, but it is not uncommon for people to marry for financial security. It’s also known as “taking the easy way out”. In Elizabeth’s case, at least her conscience bothers her enough to question what she’s doing. If she were truly “horrible”, she’d have simply accepted her new digs and would never have bothered to write.
nathan says
I think those who brought up “transactional” or companion marriages have good points. And it’s very true that many people have and continue to marry for financial security and other social/culturally based reasons besides love and sexual chemistry.
If I got the sense that this guy had agreed to such a relationship, had no problem not having sex with her, nor with the OP finding other men to sleep with when she wanted to, then perhaps I would be just fine.
The biggest issue to me is that some that seems really unclear. And if this guy is hoping things will “develop” over time, and/or believes she’ll be a loyal partner to him, then trouble is on the horizon.
Bettina says
@47: It seem to me that most marriages are transactional in nature to a large part. Look at just about any oft-seen pairing and you’ll be able to sum up what the transaction was. The rich guy with the trophy wife (you’ll get status in the world; I’ll get everyone to think I’m a stud. See Donald Trump, etc.). The traditional couple (I’ll have someone to do a lot of crap that I don’t want to do; you won’t have to deal with the big, bad world. See every couple in the 1950s). The met-in-our-elite-grad-school couple (everyone will think I’m smart and successful; everyone will think you’re smart and successful. See the Clintons and every couple in Manhattan that doesn’t fit into the first category). The domineering person-passive person couple (people will think I’m nicer than I am; people will think you’re nicer than you are).
And so it goes…
When we see a couple where you can’t figure out what one or the other is “getting” out of the relationship we tend to describe them as an “odd” couple (a non-cougar, non-rich woman with a much younger man, for instance). Likewise, when it’s too clear what the transaction is, we tend to be cynical about the couple (an older rich man with a young blond or Asian wife, for instance).
We want the transaction to be clear but not in your face. We call these relationships “normal.”
Ruby says
Nathan #47
She did tell her boyfriend that she’s “not a sexual person and that I don’t want to have sex with him, or any other guy for that matter”. Even if you were in love with your best female pal, would you accept it if you were told that? So he is agreeing to the relationship. Conversely, he could be the one who turns to other women if the situation becomes unbearable.
Lots of marriages have a transactional aspect. I knew a handsome, but struggling artist who married a plain, uncreative, but wealthy woman. He cared about her but the financial perks made her desirable. Without money, he’d never have married her. She loved him, but she also got a sexy, creative man (out of her league) who would stay home and be a house-husband so she could continue working. This transaction was less “in your face” (Bettina #47), but it was still an aspect of the relationship.
Laura says
The biggest issue is she’s already lying to the man about her sexuality.
The situation is so de ja moo, I’ve seen it happen to too many of my male friends. They marry a flakey, selfish self-centered hot single mom, and as soon as he finishes raising HER kids, SHE’S GONE!
BeenThruTheWars says
@KarlR 34: I did ask. That’s what my mother told me. They’re in their mid-80s and neither of them could care less about sex. But they are very affectionate and sweet and devoted to each other.
Helen says
Nathan, Bettina, and Ruby – I think you’re all right about so many couples having transactional aspects to their relationships. Bettina, I’d go so far as to say that I don’t know a single “normal” couple (I don’t mean that in a bad way, but sometimes it does elicit chuckles from hub & me). Why is she with a guy who has absolutely no energy? Why is he with a woman who lectures him loudly in public? How can she put up with his nonstop talking? How can he put up with her dietary obsessions?
The answer is, of course, that for each of them, the benefits of being with the other person outweigh the drawbacks, no matter what oddities we perceive on the outside. I guess I’ve learned not to judge too much. Every couple has a different way of working things out, and we shouldn’t stand here on the outside dictating how everyone should be. “Everyone should want sex.” “No cougars allowed.” “No gold-diggers allowed.” “Every married couple should have children.” As long as the couple is happy with their own arrangement, that should satisfy the rest of us.
Jennelle says
Been there, done that, it was a disaster! In my late 20’s I had a male room mate. We were the best of friends. One night after we’d been drinking i kissed him or he kiss me or not sure how it happened.
Because we were the best of friends I thought it would work… nope.
After 15yrs of a loveless marriage and sexless marriage I finally got out. Don’t do it! Friendship in marriage is so important, but without love and passion you’ll both be unhappy. Eventually you kill the friendship. If he truly is your best friend… you owe him honesty.
do the right thing. Jennelle
jack says
Ruby-
For such a relationship to be ‘transactional’, he would have to be getting something for it.
I would argue that a “Trophy Wife” setup is transactional and not based so much on love. An ugly millionaire gets to have sex with a woman out of his league, and a hot girl gets tons of resources. It’s cynical, but as long as both parties understand the relationship, it is their choice.
In the post here, we have one person causing a FRAUDULENT transaction. I’m sure that she did not say ‘no sex ever’ – she has to leave him thinking there will be some intimacy. Only SHE knows the TRUTH about the transaction.
And since he will get NOTHING, it is a cheat, not a legitimate transaction.
Most con artists probably use the same rationalizations this woman uses when they cheat people out of their money.
Lisa says
Elizabeth, you can call this a marriage if you want. I call it a sponsorship.
Ruby says
Jack #54
<<For such a relationship to be ‘transactional’, he would have to be getting something for it.>>
The boyfriend knows that he won’t be getting sex (even though, as Elizabeth’s best friend, he must have known or intuited that she was enjoying sex with her previous boyfriends), but he is okay with it. What is he getting? I’m not sure, but perhaps he hopes to be able to eventually win Elizabeth over. Perhaps he’s not that sexual himself. I’ve never said that what Elizabeth is doing is right or okay, but it is surprising that her guy is accepting a marriage on such terms.
Lisa says
Ruby,
No guy is OK with not having sex. If there are extenuating circumstances, like a medical problem, that’s one thing. But this guy is definitely expecting sex.
jack says
Ruby-
He is hoping to win her over by being a provider.
Frankly, he sounds very backward and socially awkward since he is signing up for this.
She is taking advantage of a person who does not understand what is happening. You have a cynical and calculating person who is taking advantage of a man who, by all indications, is a love-struck innocent.
I’m not sure which I find more worthy of reproach; a person who would engage in such naked exploitation, or another person who looks for ratioanlizations to justify it.
Annie says
This is an odd one.
I totally agree she is exploiting him, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned in life, is you really can’t be used by some-one unless you let them. He IS getting something out of this, even without the sex, and I suspect it’s something that is not very healthy emotionally.
So although what I think she is doing, is terrible, he is allowing it. Sounds like they could both use some councelling.
Bettina says
[email protected]: Well put.
[email protected]: We all agree that we don’t know what he’s getting out of it but that he thinks he must be getting something. The marriage deal is never laid out so plainly as “you be good-looking and I’ll be rich”–the deal arises out of opportunity, I’d say, and may not be conscious to those involved. In your scenario, we have a guy who’s offering a lifestyle in exchange for a physical relationship with someone who has told him she isn’t interested in one. That sounds just as manipulative as what she’s doing. But yay for traditional gender roles.
nathan says
@48 Bettina- “It seem to me that most marriages are transactional in nature to a large part.” I’d say the majority perhaps, but not “most.” Then again, I also think that the ways in which people tend to reduce intimate relationships down to what they are getting and gaining – as if it’s just another form of business – is a major part of why it’s so difficult to have healthy, long lasting partnerships in the first place.
Lisa @57 – I think it’s probably true that few men or women are ok with no sex at all in a relationship. The need may fade over long periods of time together for some, and a small percentage of folks might be asexual or not terribly into sex for some reason – but the large majority of both men and women would struggle with a sexless relationship over the long haul.
Ruby says
Jack #54
<<I’m not sure which I find more worthy of reproach…or another person who looks for ratioanlizations to justify it.>>
Sounds like you are actually talking about the boyfriend.
Christie Hartman says
This guy isn’t a “lovestruck innocent” or a victim – he’s a guy with LOW STANDARDS who is settling for a friend who hasn’t wanted him in 11 years, who has given up and settled for him, who doesn’t even want sex with him. Is it right for her to marry this guy? HELL NO. But he’s a grown man who’s choosing to give more than he ought to the wrong woman. If he ran this scenario by anyone, they would warn him that it’s a bad idea. But he isn’t asking for advice, or isn’t listening to the advice he’s getting. In “therapy speak”, he’s the classic person who, deep down, doesn’t believe he’s worthy of real love. And, chances are, so is Elizabeth.
Adam says
Christie,
The guy is head over heels in love with the girl. He is looking at her through ruby colored glasses. He is thinking that she is an abused thing that he will change and then she will have sex with him. Elizabeth has totally betrayed, not only herself but her “friend” as well.
Since you feel it is OK for women to manipulate men for resources, is it OK when men promise women the world and lie, lie and lie some more for sex? When they take advantage of women who are in love with them and use them for sex? Is this OK with you?
Angie says
Elizabeth,
I am probably echoing some other posters, but the reason your son has no stability is because you keep moving him around. Why do you keep living with different boyfriends?
I read a stat before that was women who live with MORE than one boyfriend without getting engaged/married greatly increase their chances of divorce. You don’t seem to know how to take care of yourself and your son on your own… you can’t expect a boyfriend to do that.
I also agree with the poster who says your “friend”/ “boyfriend” sounds awkward. No person on earth should agree to something like this. You also shouldn’t be building a house together with someone who you aren’t actually engaged to.
The next time you move in with someone, you should have in your head that you need a ring on your finger. This will ensure stability for you and your son’s futures.
Also, is it possible you don’t understand what “love” is? (also your friend/boyfriend doesn’t sound like it either). If you LOVE your friend as a friend… would you want him dating someone who is taking advantage of his financial situation?
jack says
Ruby-
Guess again.
Bree Talon says
A couple people commented on the importance of friendship, companionship for the sustainability in long-term relationships. I completely agree, and think that trust is probably the heart of making a true friend and companion. Without the intimacy that comes from the shared romantic and sexual connection (even if that is most vibrant in the beginning years of a partnership) deep levels of trust can never be gained. Elizabeth is holding back initially from even being honest with her so-called best friend about her sexual feelings, which is a horrible foundation of a partnership, and is never going to be sustainable in the long-term on an equal basis.
I had a relationship experience with a dear friend of mine not too long ago, we had so many things in common and so much intellectual attraction but for me that sexual chemistry was just never really there. I’m glad we explored the possibility of being together, though it has changed our level of friendship (hopefully temporarily) but in the end it was never going to develop into more without all the levels of attraction being present. While I can relate to Elizabeth’s quandary of wanting a man she knew was a tried and true good person, they were not on equal terms going into the relationship (she had more to gain) which was completely unfair and a callous disregard for what was right for them as a team – which is what a romantic partnership should be, IMHO.
Evan’s example of how it would feel to be on the receiving end of those same circumstances are probably not what she had in mind when she put herself on this course of action, thinking only of her best interests and her son’s. Which is in some ways understandable and human – but unacceptable.
Ruby says
Christie Hartmann #63
Yes, exactly.
Jack #65
Got it the first time, But go back and read my previous posts. I’ve never rationalized – or condoned – Elizabeth’s behavior. I’ve tried to understand why her friend is rationalizing it, which he’d have to be in order accept a sexless relationship. If he’d chosen not to accept it, she wouldn’t be writing EMK.
Gem says
Why did Elizabeth lie and say,
“I’m not a sexual person [with you or anyone].”
instead of: “The thought of YOU touching me is repulsive, but not the thought of OTHER men.”
She LIED because she knows the first way gives him some hope. And he, sadly enough, is sap enough to agree to this arrangement on that hope.
She may not be a sexual person NOW, but he’s hoping that changes. She’s not a sexual person with any man, so it’s not personal about him, and leaves hope that it may change in the future.
She purposely worded it in a way to deceive, knowing that after pining for her for years, he would jump at the chance to finally be in a relationship.
She knows his wheels are turning: Maybe she’s had a bad experience in the past and we can work on that. Maybe she never experienced true love, and she’ll come around. Maybe she never had great sex. With love and patience and devotion, HER problem can be fixed. Because he doesn’t know the truth. She doesn’t HAVE a sexual problem…..
He’s not signing up for a life of celebacy. He’s signing up for hope. Is he taking a big, dumb chance. Yes. Is he a little desperate, probably.
But he’s not a liar. She is, and there’s no way to rationalize it. Period.
Joe says
She’s got a freakin’ KID, obviously she’s a sexual person…
Jadafisk says
Also, she admitted as much.
Ronnie Ann Ryan - Teh Dating Coach for Women Over 40 says
It’s easy to judge. But as a dating coach, I have learned people have all kinds of reasons for the things they do for love. I don’t think Elizabeth should marry this guy because SHE really doesn’t want to. After all, why else would she write a letter like this to Evan? Maybe, she wants permission to get out of a situation she knows is wrong. That’s why she reached out for help and she got it!
So, have a little compassion for Elizabeth. Even though she is misguided, she certainly showed willingness to hear the truth from Evan and get a good, solid bashing from commentors.
Christie Hartman says
Ronnie (71): Well said. It is easy to judge.
Annie says
@68
If he has said he is okay with there not being any sex, and doesn’t actually mean it, then he is lying as much as she is.
It takes two people to get involved in a situation like this, not one. This man isn’t a helpless victim, he has agreed to this.
jack says
Sometimes it is easy to judge because it is blatantly obvious to everyone.
Judging is not always bad. To say that it is always bad is a generalization, and I heard those were bad too.
Selena says
Amen Annie # 73.
Yes Elizabeth lied to him when she said she wasn’t a sexual person. But he is also lying if tells her he’s okay with a sexless marriage, but has as much HOPE that will change as Gem (#68) believes.
Bad foundation on both parts.
Elizabeth, why don’t you just be roommates with this friend? That’s what you’re gonna be anyway even with a marriage license.
Christie Hartman says
Jack (74): It isn’t blatantly obvious to “everyone.” Not everyone feels as you do, not everyone sees the situation as you do, and not everyone has judged it as you have. My view on this is that the OP should NOT marry the guy, that it would be wrong, but that I do not judge her because 1) she wrote in for advice (likely feeling that what she was doing was wrong), 2) people make stupid mistakes in relationships sometimes because they’re human, and 3) this guy is agreeing to the situation too, knowing full well that it sucks.
jack says
If it is not blatantly obvious to everyone, it certainly should be.
I will have to admit to a certain amount of schadenfreude about cases such as this. Being one of the oft-ignored “good guys”, there is a tangible amount of satisfaction in seeing this woman’s mating strategy meet with non-success.
It is not so much that I am taking pleasure in someone else’s misery, it is more that it feels very wrong when someone succeeds at finding love and happiness after employing such a short-sighted, chemistry-driven, and immature dating strategy.
Love and happiness should be reserved for only those who act honorably. That is often not the case, I know, but at least sometimes poor choices bring poor consequences.
Judgmental? Sure – no one has figured out a way to outlaw judging other people, and so I shall indulge in this until they eventually find a way to make it illegal.
Jennifer says
Jack #77 “It feels very wrong when someone succeeds at finding love and happiness after employing such a short-sighted, chemistry-driven, and immature dating strategy.”
This is something I don’t understand about you (and others that think like you do about this)- why? Why does it matter how other people succeed in getting what they want? Provided it’s not illegal or ‘dishonorable’ (and there is nothing inherently dishonorable about being short-sighted, chemistry-driven, or immature, if that’s how you want to label their actions), what does it have to do with you/why would it bother you? Because you weren’t chosen by them? It seems to me if you think so poorly of them, given how you characterize their actions, you wouldn’t want them anyway.
Not trying to pick on you because I know other people think this way as well, but I don’t get why you would concern yourself so much with how other people (people you probably wouldn’t want anyway) were succeeding (or not) in the love/romance game. It seems to me the time would be better spent figuring out how to get what you want instead of focusing on the ‘unfairness’ of it all.
jack says
It’s like watching people get rich running a hedge fund instead of creating real wealth. Yeah, it pays, but it is only making money by playing games with money. Real businesspeople make money by giving value, rather than playing the market.
Personally, I will completely admit that when I read an online dating profile that is obviously written by some woman who chased bad boys until she was 40 and is now desperate to find her “prince”, I get a sense of satisfaction.
Bad, selfish actions should result in bad outcomes. Some people still cheat the system, but many do not.
Adam says
Completely agree Jack. Too many of those type of women end up like Elizabeth. They are looking for some nice, stable individual to swindle.
Annie says
@79
Your sense of satisfaction is based on revenge.
When you are happy, you will feel empathy. It’s the way the soul works.
jack says
But the revenge makes me happy, so why don’t I feel any sympathy???
;-p
Ria says
I think we tend to judge too easily and some of the judgemental comments, which l belive, were not quite right, especially remarks of what type of woman she is. Quite frankly, l belive she is not exploiting the situation, ld rather see someone, who, is desperately looking some sort of solution, is emotionally worned out and unhappy, disapointed and is wondering, wether something good can come out of this situation after all the hassle in past relationships (after all – all the women magazines these days tend to advice to marry the one who is “there for you” no matter the non-chemistry).
She also mentioned, she was TIRED of all her past dissapointments and unstability and the chain events of unhappy dating, and having that constantly, at the age of 37, it can make a mark. She does not sound like exploiter or user, rather misguided with very bad experiences in past (belive, a real exploiter would not post question here, she would be out there enjoying exploiting someone right this minute without worrying consequences), so be nice, guys:)
However, my advice would be exactly the same – not to get involved, because l belive its “not just sex” as some might think, but the whole attraction complex, which isnt there and it makes her even more suffer, if she agrees to enter into this union. Like someone else here said – advice would be to build up her own life, and take some time off dating to figure out herself. Her friend can be there for her as friend.
John says
This woman is horrible. I am sorry I have to write that. She sounds like the most selfish human being on the planet. No wonder her relationships never worked out. Everything is about her, and no one else.
He is, and possibly always has been, in love with me. I do love him, but only as a friend. Evan, I am tired. I am tired of all these failed relationships; tired of moving in and out with people; and tired of the lack of stability in my, and my 15-year-old son’s life. I moved in with my best friend and told him we should be a couple. He jumped all over it. We are even building a new house together, which he is financing.
And that male friend of hers? He has no balls and deserves no sympathy at all. If I were in his shoes I would have cut her lose a very long time ago. This man has denied his feelings for a very long time, waiting for this selfish woman to come to her senses. Meanwhile, there is another beautiful woman out there who would absolutely appreciate his good heart, and be eager to form a lasting romantic relationship with him. He keeps waiting for Godot.
Personally, I don’t ever agree to be “just friends” with women I am romantically interested in. Never. Once I make my intentions known to her, and she tells me “I’d like to be friends only with you”. I tell her that is not my mission. If I am good enough to be a friend, I should be good enough to be a boyfriend. You see, the interesting thing with women is, they can get their companionship needs met by being “just friends” with you. However, you cannot get your own needs met through that arrangement. Thus, “being friends” is a one-sided arrangement where one partner benefits, and the other is kept in limbo, hoping for a change some time down the road. This man has waited for 11 years, and still continues to hope. What a wuss!
CR says
John –
Everything you said is spot on. I’d add that many women know that these guys love them and take advantage of them…need a ride to the airport, need help moving, a shoulder to cry on while she complains about yet another dude who bangs her and leaves her…I see too many of my guy friends do this. The best advice I ever received from a male relative during my teenage years is that there are many great women out there, but don’t let any of them take advantage of you. Hence why I will help a girl move/ride to the airport so long as she is my gf.
Kelly says
@84 Really? Guys and girls are not able to be friends without sex? I’m crushed….
CR says
@85 – They can so long as the relationship is equitable. Not with one taking advantage of the other.
But overall, John (83) is 100% correct. And all those saying don’t ‘judge’ defending this women should be ashamed of themselves. Just because she writes about it, admits she’s confused, has had bad prior relationships…that doesn’t create any uncertainty over the situation.
What she’s doing is hideously selfish. She’s taking advantage of a guy who is in love with her for purely selfish financial reasons. If a man were to do that to a woman ya’ll would be up in arms. Both people in that situation are completely pathetic.
NonExist says
She is wrong for deceiving him. And he may just be blind for not seeing through her game.
And if the thought of him touching her is repulsive, I even question their friendship. It is one thing to not be attracted to someone, but referring to sexually being with them as ‘repulsive’ is a whole new dimension.
And she wants him to be there for her and her child by another man.
The problem in her relationships may be her. She calls herself kind and compassionate but she is about to perpetrate a lifelong fraud on a friend of 11 years just to get stability.
Not saying she is a horrible person but I’d hate to see how she treats non friends.
But the guy seems to have possibly put himself in this position by always supporting her. Hopefully he sees the light and dodges this bullet.
Paragon says
It is not relevant if he is lying – since it is not a plausible lie, and no one, including the OP believes that he would prefer a sexless relationship(even as he might abide it).
Her lie, on the other hand is far more pernicious – as her best friend(sic) is certainly not signing up to enable her clandestine sex life with other men(which is equally certain to be the case, from the sounds of it).
If this isn’t fraudulent, and exploitative(not to mention posing an element of moral hazard), then I don’t know what is.
If she wants to be seen as noble, she should either compensate him sexually, or walk away.
As for the psychological investment of other male posters in this thread – it is entirely understandable, as Elizabeth is posing a grave injury which is indemnified to legal redress, and where the victims are almost entirely limited to the male sex.
Like, duh.
Lorrie says
A friend of mine married afriend she was unatracted to but loved as a friend. That relationship has been very strong and they are very happy. People age and get saggy and if you love them because of personality that lasts. Sex is not that big a deal but lOve is huge.
Brian says
Have sex with your best friend. Maybe youll realize the love he has for you can translate in the bedroom too.
Ria says
I married someone who loved me and was my best friend. I have security stability and everything for the outside world. I was never attracted to him and hate to have sex with him and I am highly sexual person. So living my life unsatisfied, watching porn and wish I meet someone I can fall in love with him and have a fullfulled sex life. I kill my desires. NEVER marry a friend, its a unsatisfied life. I did a HUGE mistake but I have everything, except a great sex life. Choice is yours. If you can sacrifice sex marry him. You might miss sex at a later point though and might cheat. At 37 its hard to find love for sure and hey, not everyone get everything in life. I have seen people who were in love and they have horrible marriage. Atleast my life has been same so far.
Adam says
Ria,
Sadly many women are like you. Willing to marry someone they admittedly, are not sexually attracted to for various reasons. Please do us men a huge favor and don’t marry us if you aren’t sexually attracted to us. Please. Guys have really high sex drives and if you don’t have sex with him, he will, best case scenario, have a huge porn collection or worst case scenario, he will engage in an affair no matter how much he loves you. Don’t be angry with myself or him when this happens. It is JUST the way we are.
Scott says
I agree with most everyone that this is a bad idea. But I think everyone who is opposed to it should pay attention to Ria @91. Most likely, Elizabeth will get what she deserves from this. An unsatisfied life. People adjust to their financial circumstances fairly rapidly. She will adapt to a nicer lifestyle, and soon it will not be enough to keep her happy. On the other hand, people who desire sex tend not to adjust very well to its absence, especially when that absence does not result from physical injury. So it is very likely that Elizabeth will eventually find this marriage quite distressing, even if her husband supplies the financial stability she craves.
Her Husband will also get what he deserves. He will get little, because he agreed to accept little. And I say that as a man who did the same thing. Dangle a good looking gal in front of us socially inept men and you will get a good percentage of saps who settle for too little. Our bad for not doing the work to become more socially adept.
WhatsGoingOn says
There is nothing wrong with a companionate marriage but this by definition is NOT a companionate marriage. A happy companionate marriage requires that both parties happily agree to the level of sexual satisfaction (or lack thereof) in exchange for companionship. Like the 80 year olds someone cited. Clearly this is not the case. The poster is UNHAPPY and worried about the lack of sex. But because of the benefits she and her son would get, she purposely LIED to her friend about her level of sexual drive. He may want a companionate marriage, he may have a low sex drive, but she clearly does not. Therefore it is disingenuous and deceitful to enter into this kind of relationship because both parties have different expectations and this is a set up for disaster.
Sparkling Emerald says
Elizabeth – You describe yourself as kind and compassionate, yet you are playing games with this guys emotions. If you really care about him, you won’t lead him on like this and rip his heart out of his chest. He’s not building you a house in hopes of being your husband without benefits. He still thinks he can win your heart, and he can’t. He deserves a woman who will love him COMPLETELY, and every day spent playing house with you, is a day that he could be finding a woman who would be delighted by his touch, not repulsed by it. You need to be a TRUE friend to him, and find another solution to your lifestyle problem.
Yes, we could fault this guy, for buying this nonsense you are pedaling, but the one who loves less (or not at all) has the power and you ARE ABUSING IT. Show some integrity, and set him free so he can find a real relationship with someone who truly loves him.
Sometime you have to be cruel to be kind.
Poly Princess says
I agree with the previous posters saying that it would be a selfish and a dishonest move on your part to enter into this relationship knowing it’s liely that’s you’d cheat down the line. Also lying about being attracted to him physically when you are not is as deceptive as lying about your sexual orientation.
HOWEVER, I still think you should talk to him. I don’t know the best way to bring the topic of open relationships to your friend, especially if you already kow that both you and him are hard-wired for monogamy (hey some folks just are, I am the total opposite haha). With the exception of having religious/cultural barriers to monamorous relationships, ask your friend how attractive he finds you, his libido. This sounds like an awkward convo and it twill be but it’s necessary to see whether he’d be up for an open relationship. There is a chance he doesn’t find you sexually attractive either and if the feeling is mutual you can keep the emotional aspects betwen the two you and get your physical needs met elsewhere. I know couples who have been doing this successfully for decades and are still going strong.
The best of luck.
Jaws says
21 year old dude who met best friend when 5. By age 10 I was infatuated and always interested. I have watched her date all sorts of weird guys…. None except one who had the same caliber as me when it came to treating her. Id do anything for her. I fear she knows this and thinks of me as her safety net. They say nice guys finish last and that is true. Girls just don’t seem to notice. I just wish she would. My life would finally be complete
tamara says
As a woman who loved my childhood friend for many years, and he was in love with me too and asked me out at various periods, I can say that sometimes it’s not that we don’t notice our nice guy friends, it’s that we’re scared of making things awkward, or that we’re shy about kissing our friend, etc. Girls tend to be more inhibited about stuff like this than guys. I think u should ask her out; but give her time to think about it first because her first instinct may be to run, lol. Me and my friend always knew we were soulmates, he always talked about soulmates around me, asked me what kinda guys i liked, made excuses to touch me, etc. He told me the same thing u said, “I’d do anything for u”. It’s a real pity to look back and realise u lost someone so special. Remember, fortune favours the bold, and all that, haha
Bruh says
If you carry on with this relationship, you are a horrible person. So either suck it up, and suck it up, or break it off with him. You’re using him, that’s uncool bruh
Jenny Ravelo says
You’re about to marry a man you know you don’t like just because he can provide you financial security. This is one of the many forms emotional suicide can take. If you and your son are not living in the streets and eating out of garbage cans, marrying him is a bad move for yourself, for your friend and for your son. This sort of marriage is doomed from the beginning and you know it but the vanity of having a “beautiful home, and all the other wonderful benefits that come along with this great friend who is financially stable” are not letting you accept this. Sometimes it feels like what you really want is that beautiful home and your son is only the excuse to pursue this dream in such a way.
You might not be a bad person, but the fact that you need to ask this sort of question hints immaturity and selfishness and although I don’t know why you’ve been having “”bad luck” with men, it has probably something to do with these unpleasing qualities because at the end of the day, we’re de common denominator in all of our relationships.
janet says
Im the almost Exact same position, the only difference is that when I was younger I was with him but through out the years the attraction that I had for him has left completely!
In my OPINION the best advice I have heard is to MARRY YOUR BEST FRIEND.
Im a strong believer that you learn to Love.
As a woman I think you need to marry a man that loves you more than you love him.
I might be considered selfish. But am I really? My daughter will have stability, I will be happy, he will be happy.
we are afterall best friends, I know the good the bad the ugly and same thing around.
He is exactly what I need in my life.
So I say Elizabeth you are not a bad person you just want to be happy.
I think as long as you don’t cheat you will learn to love him as much as he loves you.
You will be old one day and your son will leave you and make his own family.
With a man that Loves you this much you will never be alone.
MARRY HIM!
Jenny Ravelo says
Im the almost Exact same position, the only difference is that when I was younger I was with him but through out the years the attraction that I had for him has left completely!
There’s a big difference actually. You can lose interest in someone you used to like, but you can’t like someone you find repulsive.
In my OPINION the best advice I have heard is to MARRY YOUR BEST FRIEND. Im a strong believer that you learn to Love.
Love is an emotion, you can’t create an emotion out of nowhere by forcing it. Tons of people SETTLE for people they don’t like enough, imagine if you settle for someone you find repulsive. This is not a man that appeared in her life some days ago, this is a man that has been there for a long time. If she was to love him, she’d have fallen for him a long time ago.
As a woman I think you need to marry a man that loves you more than you love him.
A brief reminder: she DOESN’T love him. This doesn’t apply.
My daughter will have stability, I will be happy, he will be happy.
As far as I know, the OP is not living on the streets or dying because of hunger. She’s probably able to raise the kid without the luxury. She’s heading towards a dysfunctional marriage, her son will have everything but stability and she’ll feel everything but happiness.
Jordan says
No Janet! Are you kidding this is a disaster waiting to happen, if she’s not going to have sex with him he’ll be disappointed and dejected and they’ll probably both fill their sexual needs other ways and their marriage will crumble. Does that sound like stabilitiy to you? DEFINITELY DON’T MARRY HIM!
Dannyboy says
I did this and the marriage has been sexless for 20 years. We’re still best friends but it never went further than that.
Doug says
i am that guy. My bestfriend of 15 years has the same issue as you. She’s not attracted to me but says to me all the time she wishes she was. Some day we will be together. We’re soul mates. And after a certain age sexual attraction changes. Everything happens for a reason. If it was meant to be it will be. But I think you should do it. If he is truly ur bestfriend and soulmate he will understand if u decide to divorce him. i believe it is worth a shot
jenny ravelo says
Best friends have known each other for a very long time, if in that time attraction hasn’t developed it never will. Passion only takes a few months to develop, or a few weeks if you’re a man.
Sorry to tell you this but you’re wasting your time with this woman, just because you have a good time together as friends doesn’t mean you’re soulmates in the romantic sense.
chris60 says
I can’t believe that this woman asks if SHE is settling. Sounds like a case of gross entitlement with a lady who feels that she deserves a man to pay her way instead of earning her own living, and then has the nerve to consciously use a supposed best friend to make her life easier. Her pragmatic and callous use of this man is disconcerting, especially given that she claims to find the thought of sex with him repulsive. Let him go and find a woman who loves him and is sexually attracted to him as well. Ladies who think that men exist to pay their way are gold diggers. When sex ceases in a relationship it is often due to a major problem with intimacy: the emotional is reflected in the physical. to willingly enter a relationship with a man you know loves you when the feelings are not reciprocated is cruel and suggests a desire to be in control and exploit this man’s emotional attachment. I say the same about a man using a woman for sex when he feels no emotional connection. My parents lived in a sexless relationship for years and my mother felt entitled to have her way and was upset whenever Dad strayed, but in retrospect there were major intimacy issues on both sides and neither was healthy enough to be a good partner or good parent. The fact that this woman jumps from relationship to relationship suggests she is looking for something from outside instead of doing some personal growth to provide financially and emotionally for herself first and then once mature consider finding a suitable partner. Relationships work for her to supplement her income. They are a pragmatic arrangement. This is fine if she is honest about her intentions from the start and the man can agree to fund her and her son. Personally I would feel hurt to be stuck in a relationship with someone who finds me repulsive. Is the lady terrified of being alone? Is she capable of intimacy? Or is she just using other people to make her life easier? The fact that a guy is willing to pay for her and her son suggests that her friend may also have some issues as few men or women willingly enter a relationship knowing that it will be sexless and they are obliged to keep footing the bills. This does not sound like a fair, loving or equal relationship. The lady knows that she is using this guy for financial security and support and also feels cheated for not being able to enjoy sex with him. What is she providing here as it appears a case of him meeting her needs while she reciprocates little in return? And SHE already feels cheated for settling. What does this lady want? Sounds like she wants to be a kept princess and not an intimate partner. I pity the poor son as he will be internalising some very shabby messages about women and relationships.
Brendan says
Yeah, Elizabeth is a scumbag.
Is says
Dear Elizabeth, Evan and All,
Elizabeth, Please reconsider your decision to marry your best friend. Evan put it perfectly. Put yourself in your best friend’s shoes.
I am a living example of this. I married a man who loves me so much. But without love, I couldn’t. I felt exactly how Elizabeth felt. I’ve a a string of relationships. I’ve been with a possessive man, I’ve been with a married man as I did not know he was married at first and fell in love with him, I’ve been cheated upon, and finally at 30 I decided to marry my friend. He loves me, he is stable, he will do anything for me, and after a long history of failed relationships, I decided that I have to settle or I would never have a family. I married him. He tried hard, he cleans the house, he tried to please me in every way possible, he even banks in all of his salary to me and kept only enough for himself to survive. But as soon as I got married, I realised its a mistake. Like Elizabeth, I am repulsed by even the sight of him, let alone having any physical form of contact. I treated him with no respect. And I filed for a divorce.
Looking back, there has to be some sort of connection, and wanting to be stable is in your own hands. Work hard. Show a good example to your son by not depending on other people.
i however also agree that a marriage or a relationship can succeed if both have respect and some form of love towards one another. But remember, affection won’t be easy at all if you’re repulsed by the thought of him touching you. That’s NOT a marriage. That’s NOT settling. That’s abuse. Maybe not in the physical form but emotionally.
My ex husband must hate me a lot now. And I don’t blame him. But I’m happy that I left when I did. He deserves someone who loves him. And I cannot be that person. I very much want children, but I cannot imagine having one with him. I DID tell him that he makes my skin crawl before he we got married. He said he is willing to try and that my heart will soften for him and I will learn to love him as a partner. No, that didn’t happen. And he demanded sex from me. And I couldn’t do it with him.
I made a mistake. Love is very important. I agree that sex is not the most important, but love and respect is very very important. Without it, you will end up hurting not just him, but you will also go through a very tough divorce.
Please pray for me that I will be able to make better decisions and find true love and happiness with a loving partner. All the best wishes to all of you.
Nic says
This is a new age that we live and I don’t think there is a cookie cutter way on how you should and why you should get married….I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you wanting to marry your best friend however I do have a problem with the motives you have. The fact that he offers stability should not be the basis of your reasons. Now if you both have an understanding of what each other wants and brings to the table and that unconditional bond exist ( meaning your love is like kin “unconditional”) then I don’t see anything wrong with it. I say this because I’m in the same relationship but we come to the table 50/50. I’ve known my friend for 22 years and we are planning a baby via (IVF) we both have infertility issues. I had a bad car accident that required me to have 4 abdominal surgeries that left so much scaring and my tubes got twisted and blocked and he has male mobility issues his sperm is not shaped properly to penetrate the egg…… So we decided to team together to help each other create life and now we decided to marry ….. We have never had sex….. But we are free to date others as we please so it’s not an intimate relationship but it works for both of us
Sarah Lund says
I think Marc is spot on with his advice. It just sounds like you got a bit impatient, so you decided that at least having someone, is better than being single. However, you feel no spark between the two of you. It would be unfair to both of you. Unfair to HIM because you’re leading him on. You think he’s a decent man, and that you can have your dream life with him, but again, you aren’t actually feeling anything towards him. Bad idea. It’s unfair to yourself because it’s getting in the way of you, going after who you TRULY want. And let’s face it, it’s quite silly if we deny ourselves the right, to flirt with who we REALLY feel something for. I’d rather be alone, than with the wrong person. What’s more important, having your dream life, with a man you may end up resenting? Or not having the fantasy life, but you get to end up with someone you truly want? I’d pick the second one, myself. It doesn’t make sense to me, if you feel nothing for him. Don’t quote me on this, but the fact you won’t let your current lover touch you, tells me quite a lot. Do you want someone who you feel you should withhold having sex with? It’s a bit cruel to deprive a lover of having sex with you. They may only end up looking for sex elsewhere, if you don’t explain what the problem is. Not fair to stop him having the right to it. I think you’re with him for all the wrong reasons.
Sarah Lund says
In fact, do yourself a favour sooner, rather than later. Can’t you just explain this to him, whenever you next see him? No need to put on airs and graces. At least then, this is out of the way much quicker. No point in flogging a dead horse. And don’t do anything like cooking a special meal or buying him a lovely gift, just before breaking it to him, as he might think you’re trying to buy his acceptance. The longer you keep this going, the longer it will rip you apart. Best get it out of the way. When something isn’t working, it just isn’t, and if you can’t accept that, then that would worry me. And when something has been tried, but it’s not getting the right results, I think it’s time to move on from it. No point being stuck in a dead end. You’re living a lie.
rox says
Karma is vicious. Poor guy if she goes on with her plan. Lucky guy if he gets out of it.
Jordan says
This is the ultimate nightmare, I feel terrible for that guy, please let him down gently while you still can. Having been friends with a girl was I very interested in for only four months, I know it sucks I can’t imagine how he feels after 10 years and then to say that you like him. I just hope he takes better than I would. From his perspective it’s his life dream come true followed crushing disappointment when he’s stuck with a woman who won’t have sex with him, don’t do it please!
r says
Let’s address the white elephant in the room from someone who has had more than their share of experience with this.
Why do Americans think they have the lock down on what marriage should and should not be?
This woman clearly is not in an economic position where she can give her and her son what she thinks they need to live comfortable and happy lives. Survival is exhausting and she will most likely not have that chance in the near future. So I hope all the comments here are not coming from people like Evan that have the far and reaching opportunity to take their pick of partners regardless of finances.
Second, just because you are attracted to someone does not automatically make them a suitable partner. This is all cultural conjecture.
She is simply tired and has no idea what the future holds. Marrying this man will at least give her some piece of mind. She ultimately has to make the decision on whether the compromise is worth it or not.
So far to that end it seems that is the question she is ultimately struggling with. With that she came to the absolutely wrong place to look for answers.
Lucy says
If you can’t financially make it on your own as a single woman with a child, why not get together with another single woman and live with her?
I’m from Europe and we don’t live differently than Americans, contrary to goofy notions about “sophisticated Europeans.” We value honesty, great sex between consenting partners, and love as much as Americans.
There are many honest solutions to her problems.
Trace says
I have a guy friend who did exactly that. After a string of failed relationships, he met a woman who adored him, but he was /still is not physically attracted to her, but she had a wonderful pedigree that impressed the family (the why don’t you find a nice girl, settle down and get married) manifesto. Despite all my admonishments, he went through with it. Miserable does not come close to describing his mindset (we met for lunch a few weeks ago and he shared). Three weeks into his marriage he was seeking “outside” relief and could not find any (three weeks). Porn addiction – understatement. There is a certain type of woman he prefers physically, and his new spouse is not it. But, she is a nice person and makes a good deal of money, and is a professional. And is overjoyed at being married to him. He is miserable. Blue collar, working class guy. Adding to the mix, they had a high profile engagement and wedding. Engagement and wedding pics are all over the internet. So imagine him trying to find someone discreet to have an affair with. People always understate how important sex and physical attraction is in a relationship. This may not be the outcome for everyone, because I know a few who got married and could care less if they have sex or not, but for this man, sex is very important to him. Friends and family talked him into marrying the woman because she is a nice person who adores him. If you don’t feel an attraction to someone, don’t make them miserable by denying them sexual fulfillment and gratification because you want comfort. Very selfish and unfair. Is he a bad person, no, not at all. But I am sure one day she will discover the truth, and the impact will be hurtful.
rmichele says
Hi Elizabeth,
I need to marry your best friend. If he would build me a home, support me financially, AND adopt my son, I would be naked every night with nothing but a rose in my mouth.
Your crazy lady!!
Ashlee says
I agree with Helen. My boyfriend and I don’t really have sex. He isn’t that sexually attracted to me. I know the reason behind this and it has nothing to do with my looks and everything to do with an abuse he recieved earlier in life. He is sexually attracted to other women but intimacy and closeness dulls it for him. I am very attracted to him but I respect his feelings and know he is working on them, I have sex with other men to meet my needs and he is understanding of that. Other than that our relationship is wonderful respectful loving and we grow as people together. Our relationship isn’t romantic but it’s strong and durable and I love it. We have been together for almost ten years now. I believe that what makes a relationship strong is communication honesty integrity and understanding of one another.. Not great sex. So I think Elizabeth what you are doing is fine. My intuition tells me if you were honest with this guy he would probably still accept you because it seems he loves you very much. you do however owe him your honesty so he can make the decision based on all the facts. Also it is possible that you are attracted to men who have a charming confident mask that they wear to manipulate women which they use to love bomb you and treat you as a princess, whilst actually using you for their own ends (sex, comfort, distraction ect). Finding self esteem will help you not get so trapped by such men and might help you be more attracted to a less imposing man like your best friend.
Caitlin says
Insightful.
Espesh the last part.
Steve says
WOW! So basically most of you people believe that sex and f.cking is everything and that there is no chance in he..ll that a relationship with a best friend could ever work out if one or the other can’t feel it for the other person “sex wise”. That is purely bull crap. The truth is that people who have grown to love each other can be happy together and can “work on the sex” together and make it work. Look, what you are saying is “OH I love you until you get in a car wreck and are paralized or you face is crushed through a windshield and once I am not attracted to you, it is over. This is the most shallow bunch of people I have ever heard of. This woman can be happy and learn to love this man if she allows herself to and they can build on their communication and he can learn how to please her. She can grow to love him over time and their bond of friendship can make that happen as a family. If that is not possible for 2 people who are best friends to find happiness together then there is zero hope of ever finding a satisfying lasting relationship.
Caitlin says
Dude, thank you.
Seriously.
Lol I was the poster underneath you. I never even post on things but reading some of these comments was ridiculous.
Lucy says
If I were “friends” with someone who was also madly in love with me and I didn’t reciprocate the feelings, I would break off the friendship.
I don’t think it’s healthy to be in that kind of relationship even if you appreciate the friendship. And why is the guy torturing himself by being in a relationship like that with you?
Both people need to back off and ask themselves why they tolerate being in such a one-sided relationship. Therapy calls, or at least a good look into why they are not going for equal, loving relationships. Because there’s always a reason, and it’s usually to do with self-esteem.
Caitlin says
Honestly, facts:
1. All of her attraction based relationships did NOT work. Perhaps her programming is faulty from childhood as in who she feels chemistry for driven by alc or troubled trauma bonds in childhood. Or she just has issues w Who she Feels it for. Some of us are f*cked up, k?
2. It’s VERY difficult for many people to sustain this two-bedroom apt you all like to instruct her to get. We do NOT know her level of education, health, career or job experience. Without that, it’s pretty insane for me to hear all of you sitting in high horse judging her and telling her to acquire those things. It’s financially impossible for many single non-parents to rent more than a room, let alone go back to school while supporting oneself w debt.
3. Arranged marriages are wonderful examples of how people can learn to love one another and yes, learn to love physicality when at first there was not attraction. What we need to ascertain is whether original poster feels repulsion bc she’s USING him in her mind or if it is actually from him. She put a lot of pressure to make this judgement brain-based decision to go RIGHT into a relationship from a long friendship without a lead up slowly – that’s a severe shock to anyone’s system. Most of us get used to things slowly beat after having lots of changes in life, which OP has had.
4. Financial problems do cause instability. This might be best for her and her son, if she can have faith she can learn to love and cherish this man. Do we all absolutely love every aspect of our job? Duties? Uhhh NO! But it pays the bills and we must. This man and OP have a long beautiful friendship. That’s more than many monkey sex couples have. I agree I do not want OP tormented internally but I think a lot of you Snotties need to get off your judgy high horse bc your posts lack empathy as indicated by not even imagining these variables in depth.
Prayers OP
MWE says
You need to significantly change your view on what love is; you’ve been sold a lie. Sexual attraction is the VERY lowest ring on the ladder of lifelong happiness. If you stay there, you’ll never be very happy.
Think about it this way: let’s say you finally meet a physically attractive guy who’s actually good to you. You marry him; everything’s perfect. One day, he’s nailed by a drunk driver. The car catches fire and he’s pinned inside – can’t move, and burns severely before he’s rescued. By the time he’s released from the hospital, he no longer looks anything like the man you married; he scarcely even looks human and you now find him completely and utterly unattractive, physically. He’s still there great, sweet, loving, caring man, but you see no future in a love life with him. Are you going to divorce him and go back to searching? I suspect you have a better heart than that. Love the man for who he is and devote your lives to one another. In time, everything else will fall into place so long as you hold true to the love you have for him and not let yourself turn into one of the men in your past. Physical attraction can grow from nonphysical attraction. Nonphysical attraction almost never grows from physical. Sounds to me like you’ve had it made all this time and didn’t even realize it.
Snow says
Sounds like you’ve been through a lot and are exhausted. I’m in a two yr plus relationship with my best friend of 40 years. We’re mature adults. The exceptions being that we have great sex and we make the same money financially. He’s always loved me and I’ve always put him in the friend zone. But I changed my mind about him and let love open my heart instead of judgement. Maybe there’s another reason you should be together that you can’t see yet. Mine was that he took care of me during cancer treatment. We didn’t know that was in the cards when we started dating. I don’t think my past boyfriends would have gone thru that with me. If you both have emotional stability the relationship could thrive through hardship. Right now you may be the less stable one. Get help and figure yourself out. Let him know what your doing. Give him the option of living separately from you. Be honest with him, you don’t deserve him. And apologize for your fickle heart. Once you’re well in your head things will become more clear. And you may end up realizing you’ve got the golden ticket.
April says
I understand that you think you are doing the right thing. I know life is hard. I think you just made it harder, on all of you. I am sorry to hear you had a rough road with relationships. So give some time to yourself. Talk to your wonderful friend. Be honest and share your fears with him. He seems like an awesome person. At least give him that. Your son loves you, whether his life is stable or not. You are stability. No matter how many men have failed you, you have not failed your son. Show him how we all mess up, sometimes we don’t learn from them. Stand tall girl and be strong. You don’t need a man, to be happy. Or to make your dreams come true. You can do this!!! You are the only one that can make yourself happy. Show and teach your son how to be strong, and how to take care of yourself. Believe me this is what your son wants from you at this point in his life. Show him you can take care of yourself. You can do this!!!! My heart goes out to you. I know the thought of all of this scares you. Good luck 🙂
Grace says
Everyone here is commenting so harshly, for their own lack of perspective. Is it necessary that you be attracted to someone in order to rationally be with them? I feel so much for anyone who finds themselves attracted to all of the wrong ones, who treat you poorly. Imagine being in a position where attraction fails you constantly, but being told you shouldn’t be with someone who treats you well if you aren’t attracted to them. That’s complete bs. Emotional stability is important, even if attraction is muted in some senses. Marrying someone because of attraction is vapid more so than marrying someone that is genuinely a good person. The only fault in this situation is refraining from being honest with him about your lack of attraction. He deserves to know this and make a choice to either be with you or not based around your real feelings. Pretending is what makes this situation manipulative and selfish, but I recognize that you are pretending out of fear. Those fears must be conquered, and understand that it’s the right thing to let him make his decision based on the truth.
Lily says
Elizabeth–No one has mentioned the Elephant in the room: the painful and unproductive pattern you have experienced in prior relationships, and how this pattern suggests strongly that you are attracted to a certain type of person/man, who, like yourself, fears deep and lasting mind and body intimacy in a committed relationship. Unfortunately, this ‘fear of intimacy’ is not unusual in our world.
I suggest seeing a therapist and looking at these issues, also reading a bit on Tantric sexuality–which is about deep connection and not chemical firing. If you’re not sexually attracted to a man you feel ‘love’ for, the point is: Why is it that you do not feel inclined in that way when it is a person with whom you are emotionally intimate and a person you really do trust?
Communicate honestly with this man, your best friend, about what is really going on: that you are hardwired to be attracted to the ‘wrong’ men. I’m sure he already knows this. Ask him to go into couple’s therapy with you and explore safe and comfortable ways to emotionally, physically, and even sexually connect. Mind, body, soul: Most adults are, to one degree or another, disconnected from ourselves due to childhood/teen/ and other relationship experiences of hurtful attachments. As adults, how we feel and act in relationships of deep emotional and sexual intimacy always give us an opportunity to learn…and heal. This is not easy to do but very possible! Take this opportunity for yourself and for your ‘best friend’ and perhaps most of all for your child.
Kate says
My ex-husband (we are great friends so I can speak for him) is in this same situation only he is the one who married his “best friend” whom he did not love and was not sexually attracted to. She had been in love with him for years and when our divorce (6 years ago) caused him financial hardship, she offered to move in with him and help him financially. He lost his health insurance when we divorced and had an accident that landed him in the hospital before he could buy insurance. She had health insurance and a good paying job and suggested they marry. The only thing she asked was that he be faithful. What to do? If he didn’t, he could lose the house. If he did, he would be in a loveless, sexless marriage. So he married her. But here’s the thing: she never asked him if he was in love with her before she married him. Lucky for him because then he would have had to tell her. They also never had sex before they married even though they lived together for a year first. He never wanted to and she didn’t ask why.
Fast forward 6 years: They get along fine. She tries deparately to please him (cook, clean, grocery shop, pay the bills, keep him organized) and he is thankful. She has a beautiful home to live in and he treats her nice. But he is not in love with her. They’ve never talked about it, she doesn’t bring it up. They have tried to have sex a few times but it didn’t go well, he is not attracted to her. He has had a girlfriend for most of his marriage so he doesn’t miss not having it with his wife. The strange thing is, his wife has never asked him why he doesn’t want it.
So there ya have it. He does not plan on divorcing her, she’s older than him not in good enough health to live alone. It’s a strange marriage but he has found a way to get through it (by cheating) and her by pretending everything is perfect.
jo says
Isn’t it clear that they need to sit down and TALK with each other about their expectations? I’ll assume she lives in the USA, because she implied she needs to get married to have health insurance. But nowhere did her letter state that they would get married. So does the man know this is what she has in mind?
That makes all the difference when it comes to talking about sex. If they are just roommates, then of course both are free to go have sex whenever they want, with whomever they want. But if they are going to become a married couple (which is not at all clear from her letter), then they can only do this honourably in the context of a mutually understood open marriage. Bbq and I were discussing that in another thread: even if it has to be ‘don’t ask don’t tell,’ a ‘just don’t embarrass me’ may be warranted here.
But they need to talk about this. And both sides need to make sure they are both giving and getting in ways that will satisfy them for a long time. I agree with others who wrote that Elizabeth seems selfish and is not thinking about what the man wants or needs. She needs to hear him out.