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That’s why I’m sharing this infographic from a site called Dating Metrics. I’m not sure what they’re selling, so don’t worry about it. Just pay attention to the part about women preferring bad boys to nice guys. It’s amusing and a good leaping-off point for a discussion.
In short, this guy looked at lists written by women about the 53 “sexiest TV characters” and realized that:
40% of women’s “fantasy TV boyfriends” are cold blooded murderers!
21% are vampires…
And only 14% are nice guys!
Now, it seems to me that this was a question that had a very predictable answer. Because the question wasn’t about “what kind of man would you like to marry?” In fact, the question was about the “sexiest TV characters” and “fantasy TV boyfriends”. When you frame it like that, whoever says that her fantasy is to marry Jason in accounting, who is kind, stable, consistent, communicative and relationship-oriented?
It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner.
As a result, this infographic is amusing, but much ado about nothing.
To me, the real question is why we glorify the traits associated with the bad boy: damaged, romantic, manly, rebellious, mysterious, smart, brooding.
It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner, yet women still undeniably find them attractive and sexy.
I am not even friendly with anyone who is damaged, rebellious, mysterious or brooding, so I’m not the most objective judge, so let me ask you: what is it about these exciting inscrutable bad boys that continues to have a pull on you? Is being with someone “nice” really all that bad or boring? And do you know of any dark, damaged bad boys who have turned into happy, healthy, stand-up husbands?
Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.
krishti says
Hi Evan,
Well my ex was every bit a bad boy and he was incredibly sexy and similarly great in bed. I knew I’d never settle down with him or take him to my parents but at 21 he is the best guy to go around with. He’s fun adventurous and unpredictable. Though I currently am dating a nice stable guy I still hook up with my ex sometimes because he’s so much more fun to be around. I think it all comes down to the fact that our brain is partial towards instant gratification rather than always thinking about the long term goals.
IvyJain says
You’re cheating on your boyfriend with an ex simply because he’s more “fun”?
If you had any integrity you would dump the boyfriend and let him find a girl who is worth his time and actually LOYAL to him. Who knows what STDs you are exposing your boyfriend to! You are being selfish and wasting his time!
sandra says
I think she is enjoying herself while she can, before she settles into a life of boring sex.
Tulip says
Brace yourself! A lot of things in life are going to get boring. That doesn’t mean you need to behave irresponsible in the mean time and hurt other people.
FLIPPER66 says
TO SANDRA: AS a previous poster put it she should dump her present boyfriend if she’s willing ruin her present relationship for her exbf’s and her selfish sexual self interest in him. her actions in my opinion are unforgivable . if she knew that the exbf wasn’t long term (he’s and ex for a reason being the type guy he was he most likely cheated on her or some other major thing) so if she’s with a nice stable guy now why is she even with him t begin with if she has the type mind set of being a cheater and thinking its ok to do so while with a person in a relationship. a relationship is between 2 people and 2 people alone… a 3rd person in the mix brings the old saying 2’s company 3’s a crowd holds true… and brings a lot of associated problems(that’s unneeded in a relationship) if she’s not looking for a stable relationship with a stable guy then she needs to admit and let this nice guy she’s been dating find someone that’s more respectful to him than she’s been .. and then find another bad boy type and reap the supposed benefits that come with it … the cheating , the overt flirting with other women , the mental and emotional and at times physical abuses that these so called bad boys do. that she already admitted that she knows are short term prospects (for the sexual / good time or exciting time)… point is why et with some one stable if she’s not wanting stability …..
Rajat says
so it’s okay to cheat on nice guy because it is going to get boring. Why not just keep fucking the bad boy and let him treat you like shit instead of breaking the nice guys heart. You are going to turn a nice guy into a bad boy by being a whore
FLIPPER66 says
TO IvyJain: I CAN’T AGREE WITH YOU MORE ….
isayimnothere says
To Ivyjain: Makes me sad that people need this explained, but not only that it needs explained but that her view is the prevailing one… Evil people everywhere.
BigT says
yeah, and you call evil people out on their bull****. Thats the problem with the world, everyone wants to sit in their own world and not have the balls to call people out who are doing wrong. IF everyone did that more, evil people would think twice about doing bad stuff. Won’t stop it all, but may prevent some of it.
jenny ravelo says
It’s true what you say about our brain, but on the other hand, if your current boyfriend isn’t fun enough, why are you with him?
355 says
I’ve given up any hopes of ever dating again. At least you can’t hurt me. I can get a tiny drop of satisfaction from that.
Karl R says
355,
Following that same line of reasoning, someone who is jobless should give up on job-hunting. That way they can have the small satisfaction that you’ll never fire them, or lay them off, or give them a poor performance review.
Jordan says
Just start your own company. Do whatever you want, whenever you want. No one can tell you what to do.
Lyda says
I’m with you 🙁
Jordan says
This post is the epitome of:
Alpha lays
Beta pays
realistic says
true 100 percent
Bill says
You should dump the nice stable guy so he can find a girl who won’t cheat on him. I have a feeling that you will dump him eventually so you might as well do it now. Besides he is probably boring compared to the exciting Bad Boy
Jacquelope says
^^^^ That right there is why you should never, ever be a nice guy. You have it spelled out for you in stone cold black and white, guys.
Al says
Jacquelope: That’s total BS. Guys should feel proud to be nice, decent people and simply avoid dating insensitive, entitled liars. The problem here isn’t with the nice guy. It’s with the self-absorbed cheating girlfriend. It’s remarkably short-sighted and immature to say that when you are the victim of bad behavior you should emulate that same bad behavior.
Jacquelope says
Okay then be the nice guy. When you get cheated on and you wind up being forced by courts to pay for some other man’s kid, or she brings you home a STD, remember I told you so.
Jen says
Your boyfriend deserves better than you. You have no right to expose him to danger or to toy with him like this. I can only hope that as you mature you re-think your methods. At present you are guaranteed to leave a path of destruction in the wake of your life.
Tyrion Lannister says
Evolutionary success will tend to correlate male physical attractiveness with bad boys with promiscuous tendencies (and will limit deviations accordingly).
So, when we observe that females privilege such males, it is not that females find these traits attractive per se, but rather that they are selecting for certain desirable traits that have become correlated with negative ones — this is their dilemma.
In fact, females will be under evolutionary pressure to accommodate such males, as male offspring will tend to share the same inherent advantages as their fathers, resulting in high-fitness male offspring for the mothers (and thus a likewise evolutionary advantage).
Females who tend to reject such males will be at a relative disadvantage (producing less prolific offspring), and thus evolution will tend to limit the frequency of such females over time to the point of rarity.
To summarize, there are evolutionary reasons why female choices tend in the opposite direction from ‘nice guys’(females who privilege ‘nice guys’ — by the conventional meaning of the term — incur an evolutionary disadvantage for the increased prospect of breeding fitness-handicapped sons — thus evolution will limit the frequency of such outcomes accordingly).
josavant says
Tyrion Lannister, you wrote thoughtful comments, but I don’t think promiscuousness is the same as being bad as Evan means here (coldblooded murderers in TV, damaged and brooding). I don’t think being promiscuous makes a guy bad, and it might even take the edge off so that he is less likely to be a murderer. Just a speculation. What I don’t really get is how Evan is defining a “nice guy” though. A lot of super-attractive guys are nice. That is part of what makes them attractive.
Marcus says
That was the most bizarre post I have ever seen. The explanation could have been “men are biologically wired to procreate and monogamy has nothing to do with it”. “Nice” is a requirement for most women…………until they change their mind….which is often. make a decision
LC says
The media programs men and women to tell them what’s hot and sexy. Fake hair, fake boobs, fake nails, fake butt = sexy woman. Jerk, vampire, werewolf, serial killer, football player = sexy man. Very few people go against the programming, and those of us who do find it very hard to find a “nice” person of either gender to be friends or lovers with. And a lot of guys think being “nice” means not having a backbone, and there’s nothing worse than a guy who’s a pushover. A woman has to be able to respect a man, and kissing arse in order to get laid doesn’t inspire respect in a woman. A woman doesn’t feel safe with a wimpy guy who lets everyone run over him. So be kind, but do not let people walk all over you–that goes for both genders.
jenny ravelo says
Media does NOT program people to like anything. Media sells what statistically significant portion of the population want and many people exaggerate the size of that portion. Please, tell me what propotion of female celebs have fake butts and boobs, and has fake looking hair and nails? Nicki Minaj, and tell me as well how many men actually prefer Nicki over Margot Robbie or Halle Berry.
Women like football players because of status and because being a sportsman is an indicator of physical health. Vamipres and jerks simply are interesting as characters.
huh? says
you must be kidding right?! in what realm are the women, lining up to go a round with some serial killer? most women “i know of” are freaked out by the slightest hints or evidence of men who come off as odd, in an unconventional manner. let alone full blown maniacs with blue prints for “sex slave dungeons” drawn up and laying out on the kitchen table..
Jacquelope says
Maybe serial killers was a bit extreme. A more mundane but equally depressing reality is that drug dealers never want for girlfriends.
Amy says
The other three terms on that list are romantic, manly and smart… what woman wouldn’t want those traits? But those things can be found in many nice guys, the “nice guys with edge” that you often advocate.
jeremy says
There is a world of difference between “personal value” and “sexual market value (SMV)”.
My 98 year-old grandmother has enormous personal value – her experiences, her sense of humor, her wisdom, etc – all these things give her tremendous value as a human being. But her sexual market value is zero. Again, this does not imply that she has no value as a human being (quite the contrary), but rather that members of the opposite gender would not find her sexually desirable, because she lacks the qualities that they desire in a sexual partner at this point in her life.
It is essential, when we have this type of discussion, that we distinguish between qualities that factor in to “personal value” versus “sexual market value.” And what complicates this even further is that each gender considers different qualities as sexual. For example, most women are attracted to men with high earning potential and education – from a female perspective these qualities contribute to the sexual market value of a man. But from a male perspective, these qualities do NOT contribute to the sexual market value of a woman. Thus, the fact that a man is a doctor increases his SMV, while the fact that a woman is a doctor does not.
Enter the quandary of the “nice guy.” Society tells men that women want nice guys, so most men endeavor to be so. Further, “niceness” is a quality that men find sexually attractive in women – a woman who gives a man her undivided attention, makes him a nice meal, and does things for him – he will find her MORE attractive sexually than a woman who ignores him. Thus, because niceness is a sexual factor from the male perspective, men mistakenly believe it is also a sexual factor from a female perspective. And it ISN’T. In fact, women are far more attracted to men who do not desire them overtly, who do not acquiesce to their whims, who display outcome independence.
It’s not that women don’t want a nice guy – they do. It’s just that niceness doesn’t factor into what women find sexually attractive – it is a personal quality rather than a sexual one. In the same way as a man is expected to have a nose, he is expected to be nice. Thus, if a man is handsome, confident, and successful – he will be considered a great catch. And if he happens to be nice, it is the icing on the cake. And if he isn’t nice, most women will (mistakenly) believe he is still a great catch and that they can change him.
So, Evan, this article confuses the point. Women don’t fantasize about nice guys. They fantasize about men who are high in sexual qualities, not personal qualities. But hopefully most women are mature enough to realize, at least intellectually, that men who are high in sexual qualities do not often make good husbands. And hopefully they are mature enough to appreciate the husbands they have for the qualities they have, and not go for the rich, brooding, handsome – selfish and commitment-averse men.
Stacy says
Jeremy,
Your post is absolutely priceless!! Goodness gracious, you have spoken the truth from top to bottom.
joe says
Great piece Jeremy. Your ending is amazing
Karmic Equation says
Great explanation, Jeremy!
starthrower68 says
Your grandma is lucky, God bless her. Having no SMV sure does make life less dramatic. 😉
Marcus says
If “high earning potential and education” are sexual turn ons for women then they wouldn’t consistently fall for bad boys. As you stated “women don’t fantasize about nice guys” but they obviously want to be turned on by the bad boy!……..but they need the nice guy at home. The sexual attraction component of your post is the most important.
Al says
How is this any different from the “Lady on the street…” fantasy of many men? The genders aren’t all that different from each other. Men just get worked up when they feel the same expectations they have for women might just apply to them as well.
Al says
lmao. Women aren’t so different from men generally speaking. We like physical attractiveness the same way you men do. If a nice guy is very good looking he won’t have ANY trouble finding a woman whatsoever. However, no matter how “nice” a guy is, it won’t make him better looking. If someone set you up on a date and tells you the girl has “a nice personality” what’s the first thought that’s going to cross your mind? This post is correct in one area, that personal value isn’t necessarily the same as sexual value but it’s wrong in stating that obnoxious traits equate to sexual value. It’s not that women find men who treat them like crap attractive. It’s just that not treating women like crap doesn’t necessarily make you sexy either. Women, like men, value physical attractiveness. If a man is good looking and confident women are willing to overlook his more obnoxious qualities exactly the same way that men are willing to date women who are Super hot in spite of their bad personalities or lack of intelligence.
Renee says
I could not have said that better myself, maybe you’re secretly a single 40 year old mum lol 😊
Jen says
Your 98-year-old-grandmother–bless her heart, she’s having a good run, isn’t she? Congratulations to you both for being in each others’ lives for so long. Now, on to your post: bra-vo! I think you should write your own blog.
Stacy says
Ummm…no
I do not know any woman over 30 who wants to settle down with the quintessential bad boy. And, even if they were, they know better than to follow up. With that being said, I rarely see women of any age (IF she is ready for a relationship) turn down a good looking, mature, ‘nice’, well to do man. So, I don’t get this premise that this is what women primarily want.Here is the problem Evan. It’s not that we don’t like nice guys. It’s that we want nice guys with a backbone. We don’t like pushovers. We like men that are assertive, etc. And, while there is something sexy about an elusive guy who doesn’t give a shit (just like for many men, they might have fantasies of banging the playboy model), we know that in reality, this is not who we want to settle down with.
Sunflower says
For me it was the thrill and the sense of mystery that comes with them. In my younger days I was a party girl and liked to have fun. You can have a lot of fun with a bad boy! However now, I will take a nice guy over a bad boy any day. We all have to grow up sometime.
Lin says
You are very harsh on sunflower. Why can’t she have fun as a women. Man also fool around and settle afterwards. Even worse, they become old and think they have the right to buy a girl in Thailand … I guess you live in a double standard world still …
Nik says
No, you are confusing men and women dating trajectories. Men date around and generally date higher and higher quality of women with age, experience and life accomplishments.
Dating around and “having fun” is what women do. And then get serious when the fun is running out.
Understanding this is SO far out of the realm of an attractive young woman’s understanding. Being an attractive young woman is like having cocaine and men are drug addicts. Being a young attractive man, all other things being equal….means pretty much nothing in your ability to attract.
This is why men dominate the world in every aspect. They have to to get laid.
SK says
I love nice, introverted and kind men. I never understood the fascination with bad boys because being with them would seem like the loneliest thing ever.
My trouble is that nice guys aren’t into me. Either they aren’t attracted to me (which is perfectly legitimate, you can’t blame even the nice guys to go for the women who turn heads), or they have their own issues and prefer women who put them down or aren’t interested in them (so, unavailable women, maybe?), or they are creeped out by my interest in them because they possibly assume that no woman likes nice men.
I have no luck.
Ames says
I could have written this myself. I don’t know if it’s about looks either. I’ve had back luck whether I was 105 lbs or 205 lbs. Maybe it’s about needing to have more se appeal? Let me know when you figure it out.
Gina says
DITTO!!
[email protected] says
If you asked a counselor they would say ‘was your father a nice, kind, and gentle type of guy’? Because dating patterns start with parents apparently.
Men in general aren’t encouraged to be very emotional with their kids, maybe these women want bad boy men who kind of mistreat them because that is the role model they had growing up?
And if your father was loving, kind, and showed his affection for you, that could be why you like men like that.
This is counseling 101, any counselor you see will tell you this is how it works.
Nik says
THIS. Role modeling is under-addressed in evaluating this stuff.
I always ask a girl about her father. It’s the best predictor of who she likes. There’s a sweet spot as I come from a fairly broken home, I get a little nervous if her dad is too awesome. You have to date someone within a few points of your intimacy-normalcy.
Jacquelope says
Actually I think nice guys should spend more time looking at women who don’t turn heads. I mean, if you’re going to judge a woman by her looks why then feel bad because women are judging you by superficial nonsense? “He or she doesn’t owe you sex” is a legitimate point but after a while it becomes a silly excuse. If the men or women you’re going for aren’t into you then you need to change who you look for.
Stephanie says
I recently saw a dating video by Matthew Hussey (sorry Evan, no offense) that explains this pretty well. There’s a difference between nice and kind. A nice guy is often so nice that they let anyone walk all over them. Their values and identity are blurred into “being nice” & you don’t know where they stand. Being kind on the other hand is someone who is authentic, knows who they are and where they stand, their values, stick at who they are while being kind, but not being nice and people pleasing everyone. There’s always a way to get your message across and still be kind. Not a dick or a whimp. Same can go for women as those who know who they are and those who just want to be liked so much, they try to please everyone. Not much of a backbone there. Women especially are attracted and have more respect to those who know who they are. Unfortunately, a lot of bad men display confidence as well and know what to say and how to say it to confuse and give off a different impression (as a good or decent guy). The bad women are often called nice, sluts or bitches. Take your pick. There’s a big difference between being authentic and confident in yourself and being arrogant though. Arrogance loves attention. Not one persons attention is enough. Sorry for the names and slurs. Those are often just the categories people often put them in. From a former bartender of 9 years. Some could look at it as weak and strong too. Weak is the attention seeking arrogant bad men. Strong are the authentic, kind, good men.
josavant says
This sounds right. I didn’t mean “nice guys” earlier, I meant kind. There is a difference between “nice” and kind. someone who tries too hard to be nice is the type who goes around trying to please everyone, and that is not attractive in guys (and probably not in girls either?) because they look like they have no strength and no confidence in their own beliefs.
Women respect strength. It isn’t that we want vampires or bad guys, but the TV vampires always have special strengths (and the bad guys do too), and that is what we are attracted to.
But good guys can be strong too. Just have a strong core set of values and don’t compromise them, and don’t try too hard to please everyone.
Al says
Exactly. Desperation isn’t attractive in men or women. A lot of guys confuse being “nice” with sucking up. It’s not the same thing. I’m a very nice person. That doesn’t mean I have any patience for jerks. Being nice to others doesn’t mean pretending to be devent in order to get laid, then having a tantrum when it doesn’t happen. That’s just passive aggressive.
JB says
I really do think this differs dramatically in different age ranges. Like Stacy (post#6) says women that are over a certain age might still be attracted to “edgy bad boys” but they view them quite differently depending on where they are in their lives. They might date them for fun but not seriously. When you get to be my age (early 50’s) there aren’t so many if any “bad boy” types around. They’ll take the “nice” TALL guy with the high status $$$ job title over the “bad boy” tattooed biker/aging rocker type any day. Walk through the mall and look at couples with kids. How many women are walking with “bad boy” husbands?
No woman may dream or fantasize about 28 yr. old nice guy Jason from accounting but 20 yrs later when Jason is Senior Vice President of _________ accounting firm he WILL have a lot more value to women his age than he does at 28 believe me. Of course by then he’ll be the divorced guy with 3 kids on Match I’m competing against. 😉
jenn says
You’re absolutely right!
isayimnothere says
To be fair, how many of those married relationships are both happy and not adulterous with the “attractive” guy/girl on the side and would you be able to pick out a “bad boy” husband out if he only shows it when he is trying to attract women? Personal experience has shown me that most of those married couples are married for stability, not because they are attracted to each other, and usually lack loyalty. Bad boy or not, so many of the marriages are built without attraction after enough time and that leads to someone chasing that attraction at some point, assuming they have that option. Maybe its just from my lense, but ultimately a vast majority of marriages end in infidelity/ have infidelity on the side but they work through it or don’t catch it. Usually because they aren’t attracted “anymore” or were never attracted in the sexual/excitement sense to begin with just in a stability sense. They have personal value but no sexual/excitement value. That high value man late in life for his security IE: Jason is going to put a significantly lower value on a woman at 48 now that he is Senior Vice President. At least assuming he is smart, he wont trade that security for companionship when he could trade it for the sexual excitement he missed out at 28. It really is counterintuitive and counterproductive. Young women sleeping around with bad boys while young shouldn’t expect Jason to settle for them once he has built himself up. Just as Jason shouldn’t expect that the girls will find his potential sexually exciting when he is 28. He should work on his personality, approaches, body and style if he wants that attention while younger.
Fiona says
It’s funny. Men are always happy to tell women what they are attracted to and why. Uh, maybe we like Jesse Pinkman not because he’s a “bad boy” but because he’s sweet and vulnerable and a great surrogate father to his girlfriend’s son. Or maybe we like Don Draper because Jon Hamm is super hot. Pacey Witter isn’t even a bad boy. He’s more of a class clown. Again, a sweet, attentive boyfriend and a charming, confident dude (especially compared to that whiner Dawson).
In my experience, most guys who actually describe themselves as nice are selfish, passive jerks who think women owe them sex. At least womanizing Don Draper is honest about his intentions.
Karl R says
Fiona said:
“maybe we like Don Draper because Jon Hamm is super hot.”
Interesting point. So I did a comparison of two characters, lead roles in their respective series:
Malcolm “Mal” Harris – criminal starship captain, 2 seasons, average 4.7 million viewers, #10 on the list
Richard Castle – mystery novelist who assists the police, 7 seasons, 9.3 million to 13.3 million viewers, not on the list
Both roles are performed by the same actor, Nathan Fillion. As a “nice guy” he has more than twice the media exposure. (That’s not even taking into account the male/female ratio of science fiction series compared to the male/female ratio of TV drama series. Or that Castle was playing on TV at the time of the survey, while Firefly had been cancelled years earlier.)
If it’s about the actor, Richard Castle should have outscored Malcolm Harris. But it’s not even a tie. The bad boy role won.
Stacy says
Karl,
I will encourage you to read Jeremy’s post. But to piggyback, what we fantasize about and what we really want are two different things (just like men – they may fantasize about screwing the big breasted porno with the annoying laugh but they don’t want to take her home). It’s no different.
Karl R says
jeremy’s post (#5) was accurate … up to a point.
But look at the infographic again.
Traits that make these characters irresistable: (in order)
1. smart
2. romantic
3. manly man
4. damaged
5. mysterious
6. rebellious
7. funny
8. womanizer
9. rich
10. brooding
The girl in the porno probably is damaged, but it’s not one of her attractive qualities.
I dated two women despite them being damaged. I have not dated any women because they were damaged.
Stacy said:
“just like men — they may fantasize about screwing the big breasted porno”
The women were not asked which character they would like to screw. They were asked which character they would like to date. As Evan has pointed out repeatedly, there’s a difference between being a man’s date and being his booty call.
These negative qualities (damaged, rebellious, brooding, womanizer) may not be attractive to you (or Fiona) … or maybe they are. But for any woman who finds those traits attractive, it benefits them to realize that they’re attracted to really negative traits.
It’s bad enough to overlook negative qualities (as numerous men do). It’s far worse to be drawn to those negative qualities. In either case, the solution is the same. Be aware of that tendency, and consciously choose to override it.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thanks, Karl. Great analysis and distinction between being drawn to negative traits and putting up with negative traits. I don’t know any man who like bitchy women. I know only know men who have put up with them for short periods of time. You said this far better than I could.
josavant says
Karl R, but where did those words come out of in the first place? The women being surveyed didn’t made up those words, did they? It’s not clear how they appeared in the word cloud. They sound like words that other people made up to describe the TV characters, not words that women used themselves to describe what they like.
I don’t think, if you ask any woman straight out, she will say she wants a womanizer. If she is attracted to a womanizer, it may be because he is better at seducing women (and who doesn’t like to be seduced, let’s be honest, whether we succumb or not) and because she assumes he knows how to pleasure her effectively, which let’s face it, a lot of guys don’t. I also don’t think if you ask a woman straight out, anyone will say they want a damaged guy. But a lot of women do have this fantasy that they can heal or fix others. For sure, I don’t think anyone would make up on their own that they want a brooding guy. Who even thinks of that?
So I would take this whole infographic with a huge grain of salt, even though it was really funny.
Karl R says
josavant asked:
“but where did those words [in the word cloud] come out of in the first place?”
From the women’s own description of the characters they found sexy.
josavant asked:
“The women being surveyed didn’t made up those words, did they?”
It appears that they did.
Quoting the infographic:
“Why Are Women So HOT For These Guys?
Here’s what women have to say about our three winners:”
“#3 Eric Northman, True Blood
He’s an emotionally twisted, sadistic, dangerous, human-hating badass. He has no qualms about asserting his strength and position. Eric also has a great sense of humor, and can lighten even the darkest moments with his wit and charm.”
I would say the article has locked onto several threads that I’ve witnessed in real life.
Quoting the article:
“The perfect boyfriend is neither a bad boy or a nice guy. He’s the guy who walks the fine line between both.”
– and –
“first off, girls like projects. They see damaged, untamed, womanising psychopaths as a project that needs to be fixed. And they want to be the one to fix them.
It’s both a challenge and an ego boost for a woman to ‘fix’ a bad boy and make him their ideal boyfriend.”
josavant said:
“I also don’t think if you ask a woman straight out, anyone will say they want a damaged guy. But a lot of women do have this fantasy that they can heal or fix others.”
We at least agree that they have a fantasy about healing/fixing their boyfriends.
Do you think these women are so clueless as to believe they could/should heal someone who isn’t damaged?
If you want to fix your own car, what do you do? You might buy one that requires fixing. Or you could buy a new car and break it, then fix it up again. Or you could buy a new car, then be disappointed that there’s nothing to fix.
Give women some credit for intelligence. If they want to heal/fix others, they at least know which men to target.
Similarly, women don’t really want a man who cheats on them. They want a man who can have every woman he wants (and did have any woman he wanted) but who has decided that she is enough woman to be better than all of the others.
There’s a fatal flaw with that fantasy.
Men don’t want to be “fixed”.
Either accept your boyfriend the way he is, or find a different boyfriend. Any attempts to fix or heal him will just end badly.
josavant asked:
“I don’t think anyone would make up on their own that they want a brooding guy. Who even thinks of that?”
Follow this link. If you’re short on time, you can stop after you read the title to the article.
Or this one.
http://historicaltapestry.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-i-love-brooding-men-by-phillipa.html
jeremy says
@karl R
i guess both genders harbor some fantasy of rescuing the other. How many men fantasize about coming to the rescue of a woman and thereby winning her affection?
The female version is rescuing an emotionally damaged man. He was emotionally unavailable – cold, hard, individualistic – and only the love of a good woman can bring out the warmth in him – and often only for her.
The difference between the fantasies is that women often WANT to be rescued by men. They often fantasize about that as well. So if a woman wants/needs rescuing and a man rescues her, they have a shot at making it work.
But almost no emotionally damaged man wants to be rescued by a woman in the way she hopes. Her efforts will almost never work, and will almost always end in heartbreak. That’s why this fantasy is so harmful.
Clare says
Jeremy,
Thanks for making this distinction. You’re right, many women (myself included) have, at one time or another, fantasised about taking an emotionally damaged man and drawing him out of his shell/healing him/showing him everything that he is missing out on, whatever.
But hopefully she comes down to earth soon and realizes:
a) such men do not want to be “rescued”;
b) it is not possible for her to rescue him. He needs to heal himself, of his own initiative and desire, in his own time, in his own way, if it’s going to happen at all.
c) It is the man’s job to pursue the woman, to come close to her, to win her and thereby gain access to this emotional richness and closeness. If she tries to reverse the roles by chasing him, it will never work.
Juliet says
Karl, this is a really excellent observation. But I’d argue it’s not the bad per se, it’s the confidence (which leads some men to be leaders, some to be bad boys). In the same vein, take a look at Burn Notice. The lead actor Jeffrey Donovan in a still photo is about average on the scale of handsome, kinda scrawny too. But he plays a confident dominant mind of his own smart character with serious fighting skills and comes across as really hot. A few times in the show he assumes a disguise of a weak incapable man and I was shocked, and very interested, to see myself suddenly repelled by the same guy 5 minutes ago I thought was hot.
So interesting how women are much more sensitive to perceived qualities of confidence,leadership than they are looks.
Al says
As someone who loves Nathan Fillion in general, and as a woman, I have to tell you that you’re off base with this one. Captain Mal is portrayed as more of an anti hero, a dashing space pilot with a heart of gold when it really counts and, admittedly some issues, but he is in no way shown as a villain or a “bad boy.” And Castle is kind of an annoying chatterbox. It’s not a good boy/bad boy thing with those two characters. It’s a cool guy/goof ball thing.
I think there ARE some characters that might support what you are saying, but it’s about sex appeal. Men often fantasize about the dark, sultry seductress as well. Let’s face it, Brad Pitt did choose Angelina Jolie over Jennifer Anisten and probably isn’t the only guy who would.
NASHWC says
Wrong Fiona. Men are not telling women what women are attracted to. Men are expressing what they observe women are attracted to. Sooner or later, every man eventually learns to focus less on what a women says and focus more on what she does and what she chases after. Big difference.
Karmic Equation says
Half right NASHWC.
Men are expressing what they observe HOT women are attracted to.
If men focused on what the “average” or “above average” but not quite “hot” women are attracted to, both men and women would be happier.
Hot women can get whatever guy she wants (for at least a short while) and hot men can get whatever gal he wants on his terms.
So if you’re not a hot guy, no matter what you learn from hot guys, you ain’t gonna get what hot guys get…unless you have money. Then you can get a lot of hot chicks, at least for a short while…or until your money runs out.
God has a sense of humor 🙂
NASHWC says
Incorrect, even when re-scoped to the small subset of people you re-framed your response around. A woman’s ‘hotness’ (real or self-imagined) has little bearing on observed behavior as it is primarily driven by biological imperatives. Same for men. And your comment that everyone would be happier “if men focused on ‘average’ or ‘above average’ women” is laughable at best. No its not all up to men (is this your thinly veiled “man up!” reference?) as this still wouldn’t alter the behaviors consistently observed from women.
Besides, by latest Western standards ‘average’ equals borderline obese (typically coupled with a distinct hint of self-centered narcissism). The current ‘fat acceptance’ movement (promoted in most all major social blogs/networks) wont change what men are attracted to any more than promoting ‘nice guy acceptance’ (non-existent as a social meme, and rightfully so) would change what women are attracted to.
My original comment stands. Fiona is still wrong.
starthrower68 says
NASHWC, you never fail to make me grateful that I have no SMV. 😉
Karmic Equation says
NASHWC,
I agree that Fiona is wrong in that men are not telling women what they are attracted to. But what men are observing is a smokescreen. She’s NOT having sex with him because he was “confident.”
Let’s put it bluntly
Most women tend to bang hot guys, aka bad boys, without commitment, hoping to get commitment eventually (if she bangs him more than once). Easy to do, because of that biological imperative you’re talking about.
Most women will hold out on sex with a not-hot guy until she’s in a relationship with him. Easy to do because of the same biological imperative. Good partners and providers don’t tend to be “hot”. They tend to be in-betweeners.
So I stand by my words.
A hot guy can easily get what not-hot guys cannot: sex without commitment — I hope we agree that this is what most men want — with both hot and not-hot women alike.
So if he’s a not-hot guy, he’s not getting that sex-without-commitment UNLESS he dates beneath his league. A 5 guy might be an 8 to a 3 girl. And an 8 guy would her 10.
So no matter how much men observe and express and emulate what hot men do, if he’s not hot TO HER to begin with, he’s gotta hunt below his league to get sex-without-commitment. And the REASON would be the same:
Because he was hot…to HER. NOT because he was <insert quality here.>.
Marcus says
Karmic is right 100% but to clarify the “hot girl” point, it should be clear that money and success solve any and all issues for most “hot girls”. “Hot guys” are models that work for guys that date their female co-workers.
Rebecca says
Every time this thing about women preferring “bad boys” comes up, I am just mystified. Evan likes to say that one person’s contrary experience doesn’t disprove the trend, so maybe I’m just a oddball, but the men I lust after are vulnerable, honest, considerate, and (the one Evan says I shouldn’t value so much) 3-sigma intellects.
I’ve had exactly one not-emotionally-involved fling with a man who was simply exciting and eye-candy, and the singular thing that stands out about him was he helped me make some repairs to my car one weekend, and he didn’t take over. The expertise and the physical strength to back me up if I needed it were definitely sexy, but his patience to teach me instead of doing it for me was the sexiest thing ever.
Here’s the thing about that evolutionary advantage argument: my feminist over-thinker side would like to claim that I don’t value the “safety” of being with a powerful, strong man, and yet I love NOTHING more than that possessive/ protective feel of my SO guiding me through a crowd with his hand on my lower back – that’s just hot. But I’m not letting the serial killer touch me if I can help it; the man I want in my corner is more like a firefighter who will put his brains and brawn on the line in service of others. If he has a full head of salt-and-pepper hair and smells amazing, all the better.
Traveller says
@Rebecca:
Rebecca, you are one in a million. Unfortunately.
Most women’s “Must Have” list starts off; Tall, Good looking, Well-built, Young, Rich…
An IQ comes in at about #14. Most are perfectly happy if he can walk and chew gum at the same time. Being brilliant doesn’t even show up on the radar.
Think about it. If intelligence was a turn-on, Albert Einstein would be a sex symbol.
SparklingEmerald says
Make that two in a million. Or maybe just get over this STEREOTYPE that ALL women (or one million minus one women) want at tall, handsome, bad boy.
Maybe I just run in different circles than everyone else here, but height and income aren’t even on my radar nor that of my girlfriends. None of us have a husband or boyfriend who is 6 feet or taller. Or a millionaire. I must admit, all of our hubbies, SO’s, boyfriends are cute, attractive, etc in some way, but none of them will be on the cover of GQ. I DO have to feel a certain degree of physical attraction to consider a relationship with a guy, but I have been physically attracted to many different types of men looks-wise. I have stated on this board many times, that I just wanted a man that I was attracted to and treated me well. (which is what I have now) I have stated many times that height isn’t a factor, I don’t mind a little bit of a pot belly, bald doesn’t bother me, and all I want is a man who won’t be a financial drain on me, but he doesn’t have to be rich. Also, I have married 2 men who were about 5 foot 6 or 7 inches.
But male posters on this board have accused me (yes me personally, not a general comment on women) of holding out for a 6 foot tall, rich, rock-star, even though there isn’t one thing that I have posted that would indicate this, in fact quite to the contrary.
So why do men PERSIST in this stereotype ? Me thinks that perhaps THEY are going after the tall gorgeous model types, the beauty queens, the cheerleaders. And of course women in THAT category are more likely to hold out for a tall, wealthy rock star. So you have average men, rejecting average women while they chase after Miss America, and then THEY complain that beauty queens who are rejecting them are shallow, but somehow, the fact that THEY refuse to pursue a nice, girl next door type has NOTHING to do with their un-coupled status.
In the big argument about how awful women are for not dating short men, I or someone else pointed out that sometimes men reject women for being TALLER than them, that the man taller, woman shorter dynamic is sometimes a male choice. One male poster said that men rejecting women for being taller than them was irrelevant to the debate. Never did understand how one side of the equation could be irrelevant, since in a free country, coupleship happens by MUTUAL consent, not one person choosing, and the other having no say in the matter.
One male poster complained that “average” looking men have no chance getting top quality women. So is that the fault of top quality women for turning down “average” men, or does the fault lie in average men, who refuse to consider a girl who is cute, but not drop dead gorgeous, with an average figure, who is kind and loving ?
The OKC study that so many men like to point to as proof that all women are bitches, also showed that men might be “fair” in how they rate women on a scale of 1-10, but the still by pass the girls who are 7 or 8 to pursue girls who are 9’s or 10s.
So if a man is a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 -10, maybe he should stop complaining when he gets rejected by a Victoria’s Secret runway model, and see if could possibly fall in love with a women within his league. And stop blaming the beautiful women for doing EXACTLY what he is doing.
Traveller says
@SparklingEmerald:
Look, I wasn’t trying to insult anyone. And I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Most women (not all, but a huge majority) DO prefer good looking guys. Calling that a “stereotype” falsely implies that it’s incorrect.
If you are an exception to the rule, fine. More power to you, I wish more women were like that. But it doesn’t do any good to close one’s eyes to the obvious.
I’ve had literally hundreds of women turn me down for not being tall enough, good looking enough, or rich enough – and come right out and say so. Sure, not everyone wants all (or even any) of those things, but a vast majority DO. I find that frustrating, but I’m not calling anyone a “bitch” for wanting that. Hell, if I was female, I’d want it, too.
I *have* noticed that a lot of people (both sexes) are heavily in denial about what they are REALLY looking for, which is why I am very skeptical when someone claims to be immune to looks. In my experience, MOST (not all) women who claim that they don’t care about appearance are usually just fooling themselves. If you look at what they DO, rather than what they SAY, it’s readily apparent that the men they go for quite clearly tend to be conventionally attractive, despite the denial about this.
All that this means is that actions speak louder than words, and I have learned to watch what people do, rather than listen to what they say. If you don’t follow the crowd, fine. But that doesn’t change the fact that most still do.
As for me, I’m not accusing you (or anyone else) of anything. I have just observed that most people don’t do what they say they do.
As to height – it’s kind of a funny thing; I’ve noticed that generally speaking, short women are even pickier about this than tall ones are. The girl I dated in high school (who was 6’2″ herself) explained this by pointing out that tall girls quickly figure out that they have few options, so they learn to be less picky early on. Whereas shorter women feel that they have lots of choices, so they can afford to be picky. I don’t know if that’s actually the reason, but it seemed at least to be a plausible explanation. And yes there are men who are jerks about this, too. Which doesn’t change anything.
Personally, looks-wise, I think I’m about a ‘5’, (average) and most of the women I try to approach are between a 4 and 6 (which, by the way, covers at least 75% of the human race) but the majority of them seem to be holding out for guys who are 8’s and up. They certainly have the right to do that if they wish, but considering that there just aren’t enough of those to go around, they are eventually going to be disappointed.
My problem is not that, as an average looking man, I can’t get “top quality women” (what does that mean, anyway?) but rather that I can’t get most women to even talk to me. Online, they take one glance at the picture and hit “delete”; in person, they turn and walk away before I can get close enough to say Hi.
It’s very tough out there. People are very visual, and everyone is trying to optimize their results, and while, yes, there are a few women who honestly are willing to give average-looking men a chance, the majority are not willing to (as they see it) waste their time on a guy whom they consider to be below them. That’s just the way it is.
I’m sure that it’s the same way with men. The only difference that I see there is that most of them don’t bother to deny their emphasis on looks. (shrug) Not that that helps.
As for me, the last three women I dated seriously were all heavily overweight and anywhere from average to homely in looks. I don’t think I’ve ever dated anyone that I could honestly say was conventionally attractive. (What I liked about them was that they were all very smart.) So please don’t accuse me of running after models.
Rebecca says
Loved Sparkling Emerald’s comments on height. I’m 5’9″, which is the median height for a man in the U.S., and I’ve never dated a man who was shorter than I am, so maybe I have an unconscious bias. That said, the guy I’m dating now is 5’11” or 6′ and I’d say that’s pretty much the sexiest possible height a man could be. The guy I fell for before him was my height, and then 5’9″ was about as sexy as a man could get. I really just don’t care. But I’ve dated men who insisted that I not wear heels because that would make me taller; and the guy of the fling I described was 5’9″ but insisted on being 5’10” when he figured out I was 5’9″. For the record, the 5’9″ guy who never felt the need to comment on our relative heights was a far more attractive 5’9″ than the “don’t wear heels” guy.
As for good looking, I don’t define this the same way as the folks hiring Hollister models (current bf has a beer gut and not so much hair left and he’s HOT) but it’s definitely important to me what a guy looks like. Sexual attraction is the biggest difference between men who are friends and men I fall in love with.
Einstein’s intellect IS a turn-on, just not enough to counteract the fact I prefer men closer to me in age. But if it’s true (I don’t really believe it) that most women aren’t interested in nerdy men, I’m okay with that – less competition for me.
Traveller says
@Rebecca:
Let me be more specific. I am not saying that a man’s intelligence is a BAD thing, I am simply saying that, for most women, it is not the #1 MOST IMPORTANT thing. A lot of women DO want smart guys. However, they ALSO usually want them to be tall & good looking, and consider those to be the more important characteristics. Smart-but-short & ugly usually won’t cut it.
And, as always, I know that there are some exceptions to this. I just wish there were more.
Lin says
Intelligence IS an turn on, bc with intelligence comes power and power means money….A Lot of women are drawn to this. Powerful men equals sexscandals. Albert Einstein is more than intelligent he is a genius more like a geek, not so sexy
Shepherd says
I’ve never found bad boys appealing. In fact, the reason I was initially attracted to my first boyfriend is because I saw him flossing his teeth as I was chilling with his roommate. In time, I found out that he went to bed very early, exercised moderately, didn’t drink or smoke, and was vegetarian. Not common for 20-year-old! I was super stoked about getting to know him. I guess I’ve always been very health conscious and reliable. When I think of ” bad boys” I think of harmful habits and lack of kindness and awareness which are huge turn offs for me. My current boyfriend was smoking cigarettes when we first met but he was lovely and amazing so I didn’t say anything about it because initially it was not necessarily my business. Luckily he picked up on my healthy vibe and announced one day that be was quitting. I was very happy! Now he’s a perfect nice guy!
Julie McGauley says
For me, when I got the guy that was “too cool “then I conquered something internally. It was an insecurity cycle that unconsciously ruled my love life until EMK came alongand cut that life source and now I’m with a nice guy who makes my life super happy and very “nice ”
go with the nice guys ladies, it’s a much happier choice.
PS after this realization, every “too cool”/selfish egotistical a-hole makes me wanna SpiT! 😀
ScottH says
I would bet that the majority of these sexy characters have bad traits for the same reason that most of the local news shows are filled with totally inconsequential bad/negative news. People aren’t interested in watching good, drama free things. They want to watch drama to complement their lives, but that doesn’t mean that they want to live the drama and be the bad news story. Just my $0.02
Joe says
Schadenfreude?
starthrower68 says
Speak for yourself Scott. I have a 13 year old daughter. That’s more drama than I can take. 😉
Rachel says
The article is more informative than the infographic. The primary takeaway is that men should derive their self-worth and their happiness from their commitment to their own values and principles instead of seeking validation from women. That’s where nice guys (as opposed to kind men) go wrong. If you need my approval and attention to feel good about yourself–if I’m the best thing in your life–then what could you possibly have to offer me?
I have never liked bad boys, but I do like a man who has his own life and standards that he won’t compromise for me. I like having to put in a reasonable effort to earn his respect and trust.
The article goes off the rails in a few places (e.g. advocating that guys hang up mid-conversation just to seem unattainable, which is sadistic and stupid), but makes several sound points that should be heeded by both sexes.
Karl S says
Bad boys definitely have the edge in the short term, but I take solace in the fact that Hugh Jackman has also been voted one of the sexiest men alive and he’s the epitome of “nice guy”.
What us non-bad boy’s need to take from this is that we can be sexy too if we take all the positive qualities that these TV characters have, like being driven and passionate and unafraid to take risks to get what we want in life. Also, to do more pushups!
Morris says
Reminds me of the studies done(okcupid?) where it turns out women prefer men showing off their abs in online dating profiles. Women SAY they don’t like it but stats say otherwise. Gotta love those stats!
You’ll continue to see abs in online dating profiles because they work. And I have a feeling you’ll continue to see the bad boy mentality flourish because it works.
The only fix would be to stop rewarding bad behavior.
Stacy says
Morris,
Interestingly enough, this is one of the biggest turnoffs and I have never come across a woman who said this was sexy…ughhh…If women usually say they DONT like it, where did OKCupid get the stats that back up that they DO like it? There goes the contradiction. I am always wary about stats. Also, we don’t know the size of this so called study.
Morris says
Seems to be an age thing. Ab shot effectiveness seems to decrease with age.
Other interesting facts. Men who look away and don’t smile do better. 🙂
Stacy says
Morris,
I can see why this is true. I am in my mid 30s now and a 35 year old man still putting up ab shots will be a huge turnoff for me regardless of how hot said abs are. Also, I must admit that the men who look away and don’t smile thingy can be appealing as long as he doesn’t look angry (in a profile online). However (and this may be a weird quirk of mine), if I see a man approaching me in real life without a happy smile plastered on his face, it will be less appealing. However, I guarantee you that any man, smiling or not, that is attractive will get attention.
Adelaide says
Evan, I think the answer to the riddle is the combined egoism/lack of self esteem that women sometimes indulge in, that leaves us thinking, “But maybe I AM THE ONE for whom he will bring out his inner beauty/devotion/fidelity!!” Which is obviously craz-y.
Noquay says
Ironically, I dumped a guy a few months back precisely because he WAS damaged. Now it’s OK to have experienced trauma, we all do at some point in life; not OK to not fully deal with it and blame others or remain in denial. I find psychos, broodies, etc something to avoid, regardless of looks. What I think women are attracted to are the dudes looks and indications of success and overlooking the problems. These TV dudes, I assume, are hot. No one would take on a “bad boy” who wasn’t. Like others stated, it’s a lot about genetic hard wiring. Evolutionarily, we are still hunter-gatherers
where men took down big game, made war, and women pretty much did everything else. Unlike men, many of us chix cannot have sex with someone we are not attracted to and yep, are almost instinctively repelled by guys that are barely supporting themselves and/or are obviously unhealthy. From a strictly biological standpoint, huge liabilities. As for nice; that term has a multiplicity of meanings from someone who has manners, is polite, caring to someone who is basically a loser, a doormat, incredibly clueless socially or horribly boring. Most of us chix love a guy with manners, articulate and with some degree of social skill. However, the guy living a small life, not involved in anything outside work and TV when he gets home, the socially inept, the crude, the unkempt, will always be passed over in favor of someone more alive, dynamic.
Sasha says
This issue really speaks to me as I find myself currently hung up on a guy I have ‘great chemistry’ with, but he actually showed very little interest in me when we wne tout on a few dates. Reading Evan’s blog really helped me do the basic arithmetics on this one: ok, so he’s charming and witty and you have that great vibe when you spend time together, but does he give you the feeling that you really matter to him? Does he call you and show interest in what you do? Does he make an effort to make you feel comfortable? The reality is that he doesn’t do any of those things. The reality is, in fact, that I spend more time waiting for him to ask me out and anxiously deciphering his ambivalent cues, than I do enjoying this ‘great vibe’. At the same time I have also met a man who is the typical ‘nice guy’. Although I don’t have that sense of ‘high’ when I’m with him, he is actually sweet, reliable, and a genuinly good person. And although he is introverted and does not have the kind of charisma that just captivates you immediately, he is actually really interesting and fun when you get to know him.
I think women (I can only speak for women, because I am one, but men probably do this too) tend to confuse excitement with love. And yes: the mysterious, charismatic, dominant type brings more excitement. But the flipside of that excitement is the anxiety that comes from not being truly appreciated. Further, it’s one thing to be entertaining on dates, but being a loving partner is a completely different ball game.
A big thanks to Evan for helping me see this difference. I hope you continue your writing about relationships as nice guys can surely use a little more campaigning on their behalf!
Karl S says
I remember reading somewhere that the neurotransmitters involving in wanting/needing something are actually different to those that give the pleasure high, which is why so many drug/gambling/other kinds of addicts stop enjoying the activity but still feel compelled to continue doing it and suffer the withdrawals of avoiding it. I think the same effect happens when we get attached to people who give mixed signals because we’re constantly trying to recapture the original high we got when we first met them and they seem to hint at it being possible, but in reality they’re always just out of reach, leaving you anxious and frustrated but still driven to keep trying.
Me says
Yes, yes, and yes!!!
So much of what we do is based on how it makes us feel. I once asked my alcoholic father why he continued to drink if he ‘logically’ knew that there was nothing good that could come from it. He said he was chasing his first high.
I’ve never made that addiction connection to romantic relationships, but it does make sense! When I’ve been attracted to men who are just out of reach, I hung on to the relationship much longer than I should have, hoping to get back that first high. Leaving those relationships (physically and mentally) has always been more difficult than it logically should have been. Those men (and their just out of reach/mixed signal qualities is not what I want), but (unfortunately) must be to what I am ‘attracted.’
I’m not sure which came first, the fairy tale/romance novel (neither of which I have ever been a fan) or the feelings they invoke, but it is certain that what we ‘want’ and that to which we are ‘attracted’ are very different things.
I believe this is true of both men and women (though men are not the fairy tale/romance novel demographic). When men list qualities they don’t ‘want’ in a partner (they don’t really want those qualities), but those are the qualities to which they are ‘attracted.’
*I am speaking in general terms. I know that this does not apply to all people.
m says
There have been experiments that replicate what you’re talking about.
There is, I believe, dopamine and partial reinforcement involved. And rats.
🙂
355 says
There’s no need to. I’ve given up for good. I can’t compete with the more charming guys who create that excitement.
Alena says
would be fun if guys just applied that knowledge to reality and showed up in a vampire or werewolf costume with fangs at their next date. I would marry that guy even if he was short and poor just because of the high entertainment factor he ´d bring into the realtionship. 😉
Lia says
I have to admit, I don’t get the bad boy attraction. I never found the “bad boys” attractive. Brooding, mysterious, dark and damaged is BORING! It is self-indulgent and seems childish, all I can think is “get over yourself!” That being said, I have been drawn to men who turned out to be unavailable in one way or another.
I am in a relationship now with a man who is kind, loving, and easy to be with. He is very intelligent but does not need to show everyone how smart he is. He is funny but not in the “life of the party” way, we can laugh about almost anything and we laugh often. He is educated and financially successful, yet he likes a lifestyle that is simple, he does not feel the need to have all the material things that he can easily afford. He is one of the good guys and he makes our relationship a priority. I find that very attractive.
josavant says
Totally agree with this Lia: “Brooding, mysterious, dark and damaged is BORING! It is self-indulgent and seems childish, all I can think is “get over yourself!” ”
You will never see a generous and selfless guy act brooding, mysterious, dark, even if they have been damaged in some way. And haven’t we all been damaged in some way? It’s just that some of us get over it and don’t use it as an excuse to be self-centered, and that is the type of partner one should want.
Kj says
It’s not so much the damaged and brooding qualities that women find attractive in these men but it’s the confidence and charisma they have! A strong leading man, vampire or otherwise, are what makes these types of men sexy. Confidence is always the sexiest quality in a person, IMHO.
Karmic Equation says
I think that women are attracted to bad boys because they free us to be bad girls. There’s a reason why there are so many movies with theme of wrong-side-of-the-tracks boy dating the preacher’s daughter.
Women “dream of” marrying the stand up citizen, good provider, faithful man. The guy who inspires us to be better human beings and role models for our children.
Women “fantasize” about the guy who makes us forget our responsibilities. Bad boys do that.
I dated nice guys and married one.
After I divorced, I lived with my reformed bad-boy bf for 6 years before being forced to call it quits. He couldn’t conquer his demons. He was sensitive and thoughtful. Something you wouldn’t expect a reformed bad boy to be.
After him, I dated a definite bad boy and a bad boy wanna be, for about a year each.
The bad boys remind you how to be young at heart. I needed that. And I also needed to NOT be emotionally invested as I healed from the demise of my 6-yr relationship.
Dating bad boys when you’re older reaps benefits that dating bad boys when you’re young doesn’t. The former reminds us how to be young at heart. The latter embitters you towards men.
If you’re divorced and have had children, date a bad boy or two, without expectations of commitment. There is something extraordinarily liberating about that. Give yourself permission to “be bad”. You won’t regret it. Just do NOT allow yourself to fall in love with said bad boy nor hope for a committed relationship with him. Live in the moment. Enjoy the freedom of being a bad girl. Don’t stop dating “nice guys” when you’re dating your bad boy. That’s part of what makes you “a bad girl”.
And just to be clear, I’m not advocating cheating. If said bad boy asks you to be his gf, say no. No matter how high the chemistry. Stay a free agent. If said nice guy asks you to be his gf, well, that’s up to you. Don’t cheat on him if he asks. But if you want to continue to see the bad boy, then you have to say no to the good guy. You’re in the driver’s seat. Do what you want. You’re not beholden to either man if YOU don’t commit to them. That’s also part of being a “bad girl.”
Paula says
As a woman, the men I like are men like Jon Stewart because he’s funny. My #1 crush now is Ed Snowden. After watching citizenfour, he came across as incredible intelligent, thoughtful and has nice teeth. He is also good looking. Not all women have the same type of crush but for me, if a man is attractive and funny, I will crush but the men that are the bad boys have never been my type. I liked Snowden because he’s a man with courage. I’m Canadian so please don’t bash me as a traitor because lots of us feel he did what’s best for the people
Stacy says
Karl,
Any hint of being damaged and I run as fast as my 6 inch heels would allow. Yes, I get the hell out of dodge. And again, the fact that these characteristics in the bad boys are deemed ‘irresistible’ according to this study, does not mean that a woman will want to settle down with said bad boy (EVEN if she wants to date him temporarily). Also, we don’t know the size of the study or the age group(s) asked – which can be a factor.
I would be so bold to say that women aren’t generally attracted to damaged men. However, by the time she realizes he is damaged, she may have fallen in love and may in turn choose to stay hoping that Mr. Damage may change because he may have the other positive characteristics you mentioned. But, it’s not different than a man sticking around because the girl is hot! I dont think one gender outweighs the other in this. The majority of women that I come across do not like damaged men and especially over 30 when ready to settle down. We may want to screw him (although I personally have no interest in doing that), but just like men, we would rather settle down with someone far different! So they say that’s who they would like to date…again, we dont know the demographic so the study is lacking. Additionally, many men also date women they know they dont want to marry. I don’t see the difference between the two genders.
Karl R says
Stacy,
Perhaps you and your friends avoid “bad boy” traits like they’re some form of communicable disease. There are certainly women who do. If you’re one of them, it seems reasonable that you would have surrounded yourself with like-minded women.
But there are no shortage of women who are drawn to those traits. The techniques that pick-up artists use depend on women being drawn to those traits. Evan and I both agree that “nice guys with an edge” are the most successful at dating.
I deliberately cultivated “an edge” by exhibiting several of the negative traits on that list … in moderation.
Even with mature, secure, stable women, this has never counted against me. And in most cases, it has worked in my favor. (With some women, I wasn’t sure.)
Stacy said:
“Additionally, many men also date women they know they dont want to marry. I don’t see the difference between the two genders.”
With men, that decision usually boils down to two things:
1. She’s hot.
2. The sex is great.
It’s really that simple. We don’t consider mysterious, brooding, or a dark and troubled past to be some sort of romantic / fantasy bonus.
Mickey says
Looks like niceness/goodness is just one more disability and one more strike if you’re a guy. Deep sigh…
Clare says
If you read what everyone is saying you will realize that girls DO dream of settling down with and marrying the nice guy. Women DO want men who are nice. BUT they want them to have backbone and confidence, not be pushovers.
jeremy says
@Clare
I think the problem that you and Mickey are having regarding this point is that you are each using the same word, “nice” to mean different things – and thus are talking past each other IMHO.
When a man is told that he should be nice in order to attract women, he considers the way he hopes a woman would be “nice” in order to be attractive to him. And what he figures he must do in order to be “nice” is to put the woman’s needs before his own. He must anticipate her feelings, her desires, her needs. In cognitive psychology (or personality theory), we would call this using the function Fe (extroverted Feeling). People whose personalities are dominant in Fe typically put the needs/wishes of others before their own – even to their own detriment.
Men consider that this is what would make them seem “nice” to women, because it is what makes women seem “nice” to men. A woman who puts a man’s needs before her own is very very attractive to most men.
Problem is, such a man is not generally attractive to most women. Most women are attracted to men whose personalities are dominant in Fi (introverted Feeling). This means that they primarily consider their OWN wants before the wants of others. Men whose personalities are dominant in Fi are confident, they have backbone, they know what they want and go after it. But they do NOT put the needs of others before their own. In fact, personalities dominant in Fi abhor Fe, and only use it when it confers them some tangible advantage (in other words, they will be “nice” when it gets them something in return).
When a woman says she wants a “nice guy with balls” she does not use the word “nice” to mean what men think. She does not mean that she wants a man who will put her needs before his own – that would make him a push-over in her eyes. It would make a woman attractive to a man, but not a man attractive to a woman. In the expression “a nice guy with balls”, it is the “balls” part that is attractive, not the “nice” part.
What this means, in cognitive psych terms, is that women want a man whose personality is dominant in Fi, but who occasionally uses Fe regarding his girlfriend/wife. They don’t realize that this is an inherent contradiction – these are 2 different men. The bad-boy (Fi-dominant) and the nice-guy (Fe-dominant) are 2 different men. The “nice guy with balls” is Bigfoot. He doesn’t exist. One cannot be dominant in both Fi and Fe. If one is Fi-dominant, he may demonstrate “niceness” as long as it is in his interest to do so, but it will not be his nature to be giving. If one is Fe-dominant, his nature will be to be giving, but women will not perceive him as having “balls”. He may learn what women expect and demonstrate it on occasion, but it will not be his nature.
Nice guys can learn to “up the alpha” and act more dominant, but it will never be their true nature. Alpha men will never learn to “up the beta” and act nicer – they have no motivation to do so.
One type of man objectively makes the best husband and father. The other type of man is the one that women objectively find more attractive. They are 2 different men. I wish that people would stop the “where are all the nice guys with balls” stuff. Realize that this is a contradiction in terms.
Evan Marc Katz says
I AM BIGFOOT!
Karmic Equation says
I agree, Jeremy. Women want the two types of men in one body 🙂
But I disagree that she wants the guy to NOT be a pushover for her.
In fact, I would say the opposite. Most women want a guy to do whatever SHE wants him to do (don’t look at other women, don’t use porn, don’t be friends with his ex, don’t fart too much, yada yada) but stand up for himself with OTHERs. Have balls when talking to his boss. Have balls to stand up to his mother.
And this man doesn’t exist. If he’s the kind of guy who’ll stand up to his mom, he’ll also be the guy who says “I’m going to watch porn because I like it”. So women have to pick. You want a guy who has balls? Which means she’s NOT going to be able to “control” him. Or does she want the guy she can control? Which means others can also easily control him.
As Evan says, men don’t go both ways.
Evan Marc Katz says
Close, but still a little binary, KE. You can be a guy with balls who is still sensitive to others’ needs. That’s what I try to be, and I consistently make the small sacrifices to be a good husband and father, rather than asserting my will all the time.
Clare says
Sorry Jeremy, but I cannot agree with you.
Your theory seems to state that people who are kind, generous and loving cannot also be assertive and have boundaries. This is blatantly untrue. I am such a person. Being kind and loving and being capable of being selfless does not equal putting others’ desires ahead of your own in 100% of cases. This is such a vast generalization you are making that it boggles my mind that someone so clearly intelligent as you cannot see it. I am capable of putting my boyfriend’s needs ahead of my own if he wants us to go and visit his family and I would rather stay home and ride my horse. In this case, I am making a conscious decision to give up what I would rather do in order to make him happy.
This same principle will not apply however if we have plans for our anniversary and he would rather stay home and play video games. Me capitulating to his wishes in this scenario would signify that I am a “pushover”.
Two very different scenarios. People who are kind and loving with relationship skills, yet who are ALSO not pushovers, can tell when it is appropriate to assert boundaries and firmness, and it does not make them any less kind or loving.
This is a long way of saying that I think your example of a pure Fe person (someone who would put other people’s needs ahead of his own 100% of the time) is a figment of some psychologist’s imagination.
Stacy says
How I define ‘nice’: Kind, considerate, giving, not a player, respectful
How I define ‘guy with balls’: assertive, confident, not a yes man.
I do not want a jerk who only thinks of his own needs before mine. I think both of these men can exist in one man. I have met a few of them and my best friend (who is married) is one. I think when we are talking of two extremes, that theory is true but I don’t believe most women think of a guy who has balls as one has to have this overwhelmingly dominant personality.
jeremy says
@Clare, you make a valid point and I realize that my post was a bit unclear. The problem is that I am trying to describe something complicated in a limited space, so perhaps I’m not doing a good job of it (or perhaps you legitimately disagree). Nevertheless…..
Your post describes a very typical Fe-dominant viewpoint (not a bad thing, BTW). Fe-dominant personalities rely very heavily on their perceptions of “roles.” What is my role, and what is your role….based on the opinions and values of the society we live in or the groups in which we want to be accepted?
A woman may perceive her role as a girlfriend/wife as involving visiting her man’s family. She may perceive her man’s role as attending an anniversary dinner. She expects herself to adhere to her role, and she expects her man to do the same – and in adhering to these roles, they demonstrate “niceness”. Hence your examples – of course an Fe-dominant woman would choose to go to her boyfriend’s family over staying home to ride her horse. If she stayed home to ride her horse, she would have no choice but to view herself as selfish through her Fe-lens.
Similarly, of course the Fe-dominant woman would expect her boyfriend to go to the anniversary dinner with her and not stay home and play video games. If he stayed home, she would have no choice but to view him as not adhering to his role and acting selfish, thereby showing disrespect to her through her Fe-lens.
The Fe-dom asserts her boundaries while trying to stay kind, but both of those things – the boundaries and the kindness – are defined by her Fe-based values rather than her own internal emotions. She acts the way she believes it is PROPER to act.
To contrast, what an Fi-dominant man wants when he says he wants a nice woman, is a woman who puts his needs first regardless of what her “role” may be. If she wants to go to church on Sunday morning and he wants to stay in bed and have sex, he wants her to want to stay with him, not to adhere to her role. His perception of what makes her “nice” as an Fi-dom is different from an Fe-dom’s perception of what makes a person “nice”. The Fe-dom expects niceness as an adherence to roles. The Fi-dom expects niceness as being giving in SPITE of roles.
Women want a man who has boundaries, who does not put up with nonsense (including her nonsense). A man who has confidence, who knows what he wants and goes after it. Thus far, we are describing an Fi-dominant man. Yet they also hope for a man who understands his ROLE and adheres to it, and by adhering to it he demonstrates his “niceness.” That describes an Fe-dominant man.
The confident man, the man that women are attracted to, will demonstrate kindness when his own emotions dictate he should do so, not when his role dictates. And Fe-dominant women may well not perceive that as the kind of “niceness” they hope for. And similarly, when an Fi-dominant man is trying to demonstrate his own niceness to attract a woman, if he does so by violating his ROLE as a man (in acting needy), she will not perceive that as being nice, but rather as a role violation. Unattractive.
Clare says
Ok Jeremy, I understand what you are saying.
I dated such a man, an Fi-dominant man as you describe him, and it lasted as long as it did mostly because I did not mind him asserting his wishes and demonstrating his niceness when he wanted to, and I mostly did not hold him to a traditional role as my boyfriend. These things were possible because I am very independent and I probably don’t have the same extensive needs that some women have.
HOWEVER, this will only take you so far. There comes a point in every relationship when you have to be able to put the needs of the relationship or your spouse above your own. In this case, sticking purely to your own version of what your feelings or wants dictate you should do, as you described the Fi-dominant man, really comes across as and boils down to selfishness which jeopardises the relationship. To take an example from my relationship which I described above, the father was extremely ill with cancer in intensive care. I was distressed and wanted my boyfriend to come with me to visit him (not necessarily every time, but once or twice for moral support would have meant the world to me). He refused because he had never met my father before and thought it would be awkward. Any attempt on my part to appeal to his sense of support and compassion just made him dig in his heels further.
This one incident demonstrated many things to me. But for the purposes of our discussion, a man who is Fi-dominant who is incapable of EVER being selfless is either going to leave a string of failed relationships in his wake, or will have a very unhappy marriage/relationship.
So basically, yes, many of the qualities that an Fi-dominant man possesses may be attractive in the short term, but if he is incapable of ever tempering them with selflessness under any circumstances, his relationship success is likely to be very limited.
jeremy says
@Clare,
I agree with you 100%. That is why I wrote that, objectively, Fe-dominant men make better husbands and fathers – their dependable propensity for giving makes them so.
But to clarify, it is not that an Fi-dominant man can not be giving or appear selfless. Rather, such a man will generally only do so when he perceives some benefit to himself in doing so. That benefit may be benign – it may be the benefit of preserving a relationship that matters to him. But his motivations matter, because when the motivations no longer exist, the behavior will no longer exist.
Clare says
Yes, I see what you are saying.
Going back to my boyfriend above, he was certainly capable of being generous and caring, but only as you say when there was some benefit for himself – whether it was that he got pleasure out of giving in a certain way, or whether he feared losing me and momentarily capitulated to my wishes. He could be kind and nice, and yet he was very different from another ex of mine who would do things purely to make me happy (yet was also not a pushover).
It is interesting because it would seem that for such a man, the Fi-dominant man as you describe him, for a relationship to work he must really value the relationship or person very highly indeed.
jeremy says
Clare, you wrote: “It is interesting because it would seem that for such a man, the Fi-dominant man as you describe him, for a relationship to work he must really value the relationship or person very highly indeed.”
Not necessarily. He would just need the relationship to satisfy his needs. For as long as it does, he will hang around and prioriitze it.
So often what happens is that a young Fe-dominant woman and Fi-dominant man get together. She is attracted to him because he is a confident go-getter. He is attracted to her because she puts his needs first. She does so because her ROLE, at that stage of the game, is the role of the good girlfriend who wants a steady boyfriend and husband. She will see it as her role to prioritize his needs, and will do so. And he will enjoy that very much and become accustomed to it. Hence the often-heard comment by men “I married her because she put my needs first.”
What is often missed is that the role of the Fe-dominant woman will change at different stages of her life, and she will see it as natural that her priorities should change as well. The wife has a different role than the girlfriend. The new mother has a different role than the wife. The mother of older kids has a different role still. And with each new role, priorities change – he will no longer be priority #1 – and she will see that as the natural state of “growing up.”
He will not see it so. His personality does not change with roles, but rather is based on his feelings. So as long as his feelings have not changed, he will remain the same guy he always was. He will wonder what happened to the woman he married, and not understand that she expected her priorities to change with her role, and thus no longer puts his needs as priority #1. She will wonder when he will “grow up” like she did. He never will. He was fully grown when they first met.
Hence the most common joke about marriage – men marry and hope their wives never change….and they do. Women marry and hope their husbands will change….and they don’t.
Mickey says
Clare:
So they say…
Ames says
That is not me at all. I grew up with an alcoholic, sometimes angry dad and I’ve always dreamed of being in a quiet, stable relationship with a man who is also a best friend. I’d take something a bit boring over crazy any day. I haven’t found that guy yet, and sadly I seem to be pursued mostly by men who are troubled or married, and planning to stay that way. Walter White and Gus Fring have their sexy character personas but at the end of the day I want the Dan Connor to my Roseanne.
KM says
Super interesting question. This very much applied to me until a broken engagement a couple of years ago forced me to grow up, so I wanted to ponder this one out for my own benefit.
I used to like characters like Tristan from Legends of the Fall or Rhett Butler from Gone with the Wind. My favourite was the poor boy who no one’s family approved of but love overcame. I was reading books and watching movies before I had an interest in boys and I think it skewed my perception of how love might look.
I think I liked the idea that they might not possess a lot of qualities that the stereotypically alpha (and mainstream) guy might have: materialism, preoccupation with image and status and most importantly, a sense of entitlement where women are concerned. You actually think they wouldn’t womanise on you because they’re lucky to have you and they are more likely to know it. There’s also a lot of freedom in the idea of being with a bad boy: that they’d be more likely to let you be who you want to be because they know from personal experience how wrong society’s judgment is.
Yup, it’s pretty immature and it’s clearly rooted in a certain amount of vanity but that’s the stuff that used to be in my head.
Henriette says
A guy friend of mine often whines about women wanting “bad boys.” I always point out that some women are attracted to drama, adrenaline and ~ eventually ~ trying to totally makeover the bad boy into a totally different man. Is that the kind of woman he, himself, actually desires?!?! Wouldn’t he prefer a woman who is kind, sane & honourable and who values the same qualities in a boyfriend?
Honestly, I find it difficult to believe that vast swaths of women prefer damaged men. But if this is, in fact, true then great: more healthy, kind, decent men for me & my friends!
Clare says
Henriette,
I SO agree with you. I am sick to death of men complaining that women only want bad boys, when the emotionally unavailable/incompatible woman they desire doesn’t want them back.
Anne Seidel says
I want a nice kind gentleman….not a bad boy! Kindness and love are perfect for me.
Ruby says
This article sounds like it’s from a PUA site. It’s geared to meek men who have problems being assertive with women. If someone ever hung up on me mid-conversation with no explanation of why, I’d just think they were crazy. Anyway, once a women is past a certain age, bad boys lose their appeal quickly. Most women want a man who’s responsible to help raise the kids, help pay bills, take care of you when you’re sick, etc. All the long-term responsibilities that bad boys can’t handle well.
Bottom line, what we fantasize about and what we would like in reality are two different things. We can have all sorts of wild fantasies, but we are still in control of them.
deep6 says
Hear, hear!
Sex Dating says
Yes it’s really better to date bad guys… When I say bad it doesn’t mean assholes or jerks! Rough but intelligent guys. Guys that rocks! ^^
Mickey says
I got priors! Interested?
N says
I suspect women don’t necessarily prefer bad boys who are “damaged”, womanizer, vampire 🙂 or cold-blooded murderer :))
I met my beau whom I consider a bad boy– hot, (the Kennedy look of) dark hair, chiseled jaw, charming, sarcastically witty, well-educated, successful, trans-atlantic sailor hobbyist, handy man, highly athletic, assertive, sharp-tongue with abrasive tendencies. I characterize him as a bad boy being that in a nutshell– he has balls. The man will not put up with BS and woman craziness of any kind. Needless to say a bad boy and me who’s 8-9 crazy on an average day is in one word. Disaster.
I proposed summer fling. We went to a B&B; wrote on the guestbook summer fling 2014 ends on Labor Day. No love lost. No shed tears. Just fun. Signed. Sealed. Delivered.
It was a fiery summer. But as he proposed to extend our contract through the winter and says he loves me and he wants to grow with me; that made me realized he is turning into a self-aware grounded empathetic bad boy. And so am I. I realized I’m a self-centered brat who has a lot of growing up to do. Is this going to turn into an LTR between a recovering bad boy and a 9 crazy. We don’t know. We live in the moment. One day at a time. Nonetheless, we sure are happy we are growing together. Nic
Suzanne says
Throughout my dating life I have flip flopped between “nice guys” and “bad boys” and as I’ve reflected on my choices, I think there are a few nuances to why I’ve leaned one way or another that the infographic doesn’t address.
My first serious boyfriend was a stereotypical nice guy – intelligent, kind, sensible. His main hobby, however, was playing video games. It didn’t seem like an issue when we were dating, but when we moved in together, we lived in a major city with an incredible riches of things to do and experience, yet the mall was our main destination to pick up a new game. Now in my 30s, I have a busy enough life of my own that I could have more tolerance for gaming, but in my early 20s I was scared that the rest of my life was going to be spent on a couch in front of the TV.
After that, I dated two guys – one artistic and well read, yet hadn’t finished a bachelor’s degree, and the other who had just finished a degree in accounting, sweet and earnest. I had to weigh the good guy vs. bad boy in real time, since I had to decide who to become exclusive with. I ended up with the bad boy not only because our chemistry was off the charts, but because the good guy was so good, I felt like I would never measure up. He wasn’t critical, but because he was incredibly in shape and was poised to advance in his career while I was struggling in those areas, I felt inadequate. If I had enough self esteem at the time, this choice would have turned out differently.
After dating a really bad boy (verbally and emotionally abusive), I made a conscious effort to break my pattern and seek out a good guy. My next boyfriend was kind and a gentleman but ultimately couldn’t make a commitment to me for the long term, so I broke it off. My current boyfriend is a good guy, and I have the self esteem now to feel secure in the relationship. Plus, he has a couple of the traits that I would normally associate with “bad boys” – worldliness and a wicked sense of humor. I feel that we’re high on both chemistry and compatibility around values and what we want in the future, so I hope that this is the person I’ll finally get to build a life with!
-Suzanne
Karmic Equation says
If everyone is defining “bad boy” to be the dark, brooding type, then I’ve never dated such. I’ve dated the fun, irresponsible bad boys who had great senses of humor and made me laugh. I would classify players as bad boys, too. Most players are not dark and broody.
Dark brooding types are dark brooding types. They’re not bad boys, imo. Damaged yes, “bad boy”, not at all!
So yeah, if most women go for the dark brooding type, it’s no wonder so many women are unsatisfied and/or have trouble finding love. Dark brooding types are only going to drag you down.
Noemi says
I agree that not all bad boys are dark and brooding. I’ve dated so called “bad boys” before, but they were charming and always had a herd of girls chasing after them. They weren’t damaged per se, but enjoyed the female attention so much that having a relationship with them proved to be difficult.
Karmic Equation says
That’s the thing, Noemi.
You don’t have relationships with bad boys. You just f*ck ’em 😉
Noemi says
That’s what I’ve learned along the way 😉
starthrower68 says
For those women who can or are willing to compartmentalize, sure. I’m not willing to be less than authentic or wholly integrated just for sex. As good as sex is, it’s not worth that.
Adam says
That’s our point Noemi. So many women like you and many others, sleep with these guys. Of course when other guys see this, we become bad ourselves. Why not? Why not be the “hot” bad boy that all the girls love? I care nothing about being “authentic,” I care everything about being effective. Things have gotten so bad, there was a case recently of a group of young men who were at a party, dressed like thugs playing loud music. The neighbor was disturbed and called the police. Long story short, the men dressed as thugs, were actually honors students who had recently graduated from a top tier university facing a bright future in law. I can’t blame them, most women at the party probably would have been turned off had they known the truth…
starthrower68 says
Well if all you want to be effective at is getting laid, then of course authenticity won’t matter. But if you meet a woman with whom you desire an actual relationship, she’s not likely to trust you if she detects lack of authenticity. If you want her to feel safe enough with you to be vulnerable and intimate (other than sexually) you’ll need to be authentic.
Adam says
starthrower68
Well yes, I do want to get laid. If it comes down to being involuntarily celibate for years on end, or pretending to be a bad boy, I would pretend to be a bad boy. Of course women are not into long term relationships with either guys who pretend to be bad or real bad boys, but at least I wouldn’t be celibate plus I would be giving women what they want. I don’t understand why a woman would prefer a bad boy to an educated, respectful guy with a good job, but I don’t make the rules, I only live by them. And of course, a guy with a promiscuous, former bad boy / jerk reputation which you will get if you pretend to be a bad boy long enough, will definitely improve your chances of finding a woman who wants you for a long term relationship.
Of course it is necessary to be honest to have a real relationship, but the truth can be broken to a woman slowly, over many months so that it doesn’t shock them too much. For example, if I were to say I believe in monogamy, want a family one day, I have a good job, am continuing my education during the evenings and regularly attend church and actually believe in cherishing my woman and not verbally abusing her or playing games, this could all be quite shocking and she would probably run away. She would think of me as a “nice guy” and lose all attraction. But if these facts are broken to someone I want to have a real relationship over a period of time, perhaps, just perhaps, she will stay around.
Noemi says
Adam, I might consider sleeping with a man that I have a hot connection with, but the nice guy wins more than that–he wins our hearts, minds, and bodies…long term.
You can be a bad boy, but the only experiences you’ll have will be short-lived affairs, and the only girls who will be dragged around are the ones seeking validation from these types of men. Is that what you want?
We want a nice guy with balls. We want confidence, not cockiness. We want gentlemen, not pushovers. We want a man who is interested, but not desperate. We want a warm bed at night, not a cold one becaus
I happen to know a bad couple of bad boys. One approached me at a bar one night while I was out with my sisters, and we had a nice chat. I was flattered that he found me attractive, but declined his offer to meet at his house for the after party. I heard that by the end of the night, he had locked lips with my sister.
If you know anything about these guys, you’d be envious of them. Both are successful entrepreneurs. Both own mansions in California, along with a boat, jet skis, a hummer, Mercedes, Audi, and other nice cars. They take girls out in their nice “rides.” In every picture, they have not one but 5 or 6 girls under their arms. They bed each one if them and show then a good time before they move on. Yes, they are the envy of their friends, but they have nothing meaningful with these women who use them for their money. Nothing.
Adam says
Noemi, I am not envious, but I do admire the guys you described. They not only are able to sleep with whatever women they want to sleep with including your sister, they will also have no trouble when the decide to settle down and have a real relationship with a woman who actually loves them and they actually love.
Women will consider all of their bad boy womanizing a major positive and she will love him just that much more. Women love former players. They all dream of being the one who captures his heart and they also love the idea of other women wanting to sleep with their man and not being able to. I don’t see anything negative in the scenario you described at all.
If I were to to say that men prefer fat, unattractive women and if a woman is fat and unattractive, she shouldn’t worry about all the great guys who are passing her by and instead should be happy. After all, eventually she will get some guy after he has given up on other women, has gotten older himself and has tons of emotional baggage. And why worry about that? Just because these men loved the other women far more than they love you and are settling, this is nothing to worry about. Just be happy you are with him at all. And don’t try to lose weight and change yourself, because that is not “authentic.” If I were to say these things, you would think of me as an idiot. You would say, obviously the woman needs to change herself. And I feel the same way about nice, respectful, non-player guys. They need to change themselves.
Nice guys are essentially the equivalent of fat, unattractive women. Nothing wrong with having these women as friends, but the vast majority of men are not sexually attracted to them. They like them, might marry them because they are nice, respectful and provide stable income, but they don’t really get their motor running like players, jerks and other bad boys do.
isayimnothere says
After reading your conversation with Adam I thought I would throw this in there. Just think how this looks from the perspective of a truly nice guy, with no ill intentions and decent job but a socially awkward personality and severe confidence issues. You make it out to be a big deal to “win more than that—he wins our hearts, minds, and bodies…long term.” but a lot of guys just like the one mentioned above can’t even get a date let alone a life partner, and if they get a life partner they eventually cheat on him with another “player” at some point after. Then they see guys like that get whatever they want, PLUS the girl they want to have a relationship with. It tramples on their confidence even more when decent guys see this making them even less confident. I’ll be the first to say the moment I stopped caring about women, and treated them like someone who had to prove themselves to me. It was the first time, women paid attention to me and it felt great. You say its “only girls who will be dragged around are the ones seeking validation from these types of men.” but all women started treating me 100% better from that day forward. Women I used to know, women I knew and women I’d later meet. Unless you are saying that in my microcosm of existence all the women I have known and ever will know react better just because they are a “certain type” then I don’t know what to say. Confidence, cockiness, and all around being attractive personality wise is the first step every man should make. Sadly that step requires men to give up their good guy personality as the two often times clash.
Sharlee says
I think that the article did not take into account is that there can be an enormous disconnect between fantasy/daydreams and reality. Pulse pounding excitement in a daydream or mental fantasy is safe because that dream is not going to come true. However, excitement is excitement and stirs up chemical reactions in the body, reactions that feel alive and passionate and are very appealing in our often hum drum lives. But come face to face with a real murderer type? No way. He is dangerous, so dangerous that you literally take your life in your hands with him. He is so dangerous that you would pass him by in real life once your danger danger danger signals had been tripped – and hopefully before its not too late.
That being said, there is something to be said for excitement and for novelty. And that is easy enough to satisfy by getting out there and doing things with a man that are different and fun and yes, exciting. Instead of sitting on a couch, go dancing and show off those sexy moves – most men respond immediately and you can see the passion in their eyes just as you can with those smoking hot criminals. Especially true if you look in their eyes as you share in fun, novelty and excitement. My personal observation has been that most men (and I guess most women too) do the same old same old when it comes to dating . Me? I’d like to jump on a zipline or go swimming or tube down a river or dance crazy sexy. Makes a huge difference in how I regard the man I am with!
Evan Marc Katz says
The funny thing about novelty is that it’s a double-edged sword. Couples need to have novelty to keep their spark alive, and yet people who are novelty seekers are (not surprisingly) more likely to cheat or divorce.
Karl R says
Sharlee said:
“I think that the article did not take into account is that there can be an enormous disconnect between fantasy/daydreams and reality.”
I would say that many people don’t take into account that enormous disconnect in their real dating life. Men and women get hurt when someone doesn’t want a second date after a promising first date. Why? In their fantasies they built that good first date into something far more significant.
Why do people feel that they’ve “fallen out of love” when the feeling of infatuation fades? They fantasized that they would have that magical high for the rest of their lives. Why do they leave a good relationship for the excitement of a relationship with someone they barely know? They fantasize that this time the “magic” will last forever.
People often fail to recognize that reality isn’t going to match their fantasies.
Sharlee said:
“But come face to face with a real murderer type? No way.”
Serial killers have groupies.
Yes, those groupies are on the extreme end of the scale. But there are a lot more women who would find the brooding guy at the party attractive … then decide months later that having him constantly brooding is a real drag.
There are no shortage of women who have started dating married men … and then are shocked when he eventually cheats on them.
It’s not just women who make this mistake. I’ve met a few men who dated (or married) strippers. They didn’t really think through the reality behind their fantasy.
Liz says
Bad boys are too much work. I’m not into rehab projects. Brains, competence, compassion for the less fortunate, independence and a well-developed appreciation of all things silly are what’s hot. Now, if I could only find a man who will build me a pie-hurling 1/10 scale trebuchet, I’ll be set for life!
Rose says
I’ve been attracted to lots of bad boys but they’ve never been attracted to me. Maybe I was too nice? All the guys who were interested in me were nice. Some of them were nice with weaker backbone, some of them were nice with stronger backbone.
So I guess it’s never been an option for me. At the time, I felt sad I never caught the attention of a hot bad boy but I guess I was pretty lucky?
I married a nice guy with a backbone this summer. More often than not, he puts my needs first. But if I act out, he doesn’t hesitate to push back. The thing is, his “pushing back” is always based on principles. And all that makes me respect him more. It’s a constant dance, perpetual adjustment.
John says
I think there’s a misunderstanding regarding what the result of such polls really means. Ask a random guy what he thinks about Dexter, “He rocks!” will be the probable response; Now ask about Sawyer, the response will be similar. Men, just like women, won’t respond this kind of question from a moral point of view. The aforementioned villains are fascinating characters, and they happen to inhabit fantasy tv series that abstract what people like them would be in real life.
I like to think this way: which profession is more interesting, a white collar worker or a foreign legion soldier? The answer is easy, right? Now stop to think how many people would choose to live such a risky lifestyle over a comfortable office position, there is a dissonance between what catches people’s attention and what people choose for themselves. As a guy who was the quintessential bad boy in many relationships, it’s easy for me to see how unsustainable being a jerk is in the long run.
Grace says
This post was not directed at me, obviously. I must be the exception here, but I’ve turned down more than my share of bad boys. I would love to find a nice, stable, successful man with whom I could build a loving, solid relationship. I’ve never found bad boys attractive, and will turn down a second date with one if I even catch a whiff.
vas alexander says
Here is the thing Evan,women are shallow superficial individuals simple as that.Nothing else.You have said it yourself that people want what they want regardless if it is right or wrong.
We all have done one important mistake,we ar valuing women’s opiniontoo much hence their opinion is overestimated since women’s role is very important today in relationship game.
To sum up they are making huge as well as ridiculous mistakes themselves they are far from being perfect.
To me is very clear but again that’s only my opinion.
jeremy says
I wanted to refine my comments from earlier on this thread, because I think I may have been unclear with all the cognitive psych terms.
It seems clear to me that women and men generally mean different things when we use the word “nice”. Women use the word to mean “kind, but within boundaries of roles.” Men use the word to mean “putting the needs of others before one’s own, irrespective of roles or boundaries.”
For example, take a situation where one spouse (gender irrelevant) tells the other that s/he wants to move to a new neighborhood, and the other spouse does not want to do so. A man would look at the request and consider himself as being “nice” if he acquiesced, irrespective of his own desires and arguments. A woman would consider acquiescing to be a sign of a lack of backbone. If the man were to acquiesce to the woman, she would view him as less attractive. If the woman were to acquiesce to the man, he would view her as MORE attractive.
Women want men to be kind to them, but within boundaries. And they expect that men want the same, and would better respect (and be attracted) to women if women occasionally declined their requests and showed boundaries (rather than constantly prioritizing the desires of their partner). And this does not work for men, because men crave emotional receptivity from their women, and view this form of “niceness” as such receptivity.
Men want women to be nice to them without boundaries. And they expect that women want the same, and would better respect (and be attracted) to men if men never declined their requests or showed boundaries. And this does not work for women, because women need to RESPECT their partner’s strength of will.
This is why men believe that women do not like nice guys, and women look at them like they are crazy and say that of course they like nice guys…..but not the type of niceness that men think.
deep6 says
I liked bad boys when I was in college. The ones who smoked (cigarettes and pot), who partied, who did things they weren’t supposed to and didn’t do things they were supposed to. . . . It was all because I was a pretty sheltered kid who wasn’t allowed to do much, and I saw these guys as my wise guides in mischief-making and pretty harmless rebelliousness. It wasn’t enough anymore to NOT do things because my parents said not to do them. I needed to cause a bit of trouble and figure out on my own how much of that I could handle, and go through some experiences first hand. I had some major, major crushes on those guys, and was head over heels for one (a little less bad than the others but way cooler). It wasn’t until my mid 20s when I got in my first real relationship though, and that wasn’t with a bad boy. It was with a really decent guy. He called when he said he was going to call. He didn’t play any head games. He was totally clear about how much he liked me and wanted to spend time with me as often as he could. He was average looking by conventional standards but I had nothing but warm fuzzies for him. I felt really comfortable around him, and for such a shy guy around other people he was never shy around me. I stayed with him for over seven years. Since that ended I’ve had a few flings but what I’ve been looking for in a long-term companion hasn’t changed. I want the stand-up man. A “nice” guy? Sure. I don’t want to date a guy who’s passive aggressive, immature or rude. But I’m certainly not looking for someone damaged or someone who’s actually violent. I want someone who’s a high level communicator, easy to be with, gung ho for whatever random activity I want a partner for that weekend, who’s sexually compatible with me, and can handle my big Italian family. The loner dangerous guy doesn’t fit into my fantasy. About the only one the loner dangerous guy fits into is a sexual fantasy, and that’s only because they do the chasing, and they’re hot. As seen on TV, not as seen in reality.
Alicia says
I would like to see a similar article from the female perspective
jenny ravelo says
There are to extremes: the bad boy and the nice guy. One is utterly sexual, the other is the opposite. When looking for someone for a LTR, women are attracted to less masculine faces and less agressive behaviors, which means that someone in the middle would be MUCH more desirable than both.
Women who are constantly attracted to guys too nice it’s because they have self-esteem issues that makes them feel afraid of more masculine men, while women who are attracted to bad boys are not looking for a relationship or have their issues as well.
Movie characters are just character are just that. They are attractive because they are a fantasy, they have the charm and mystery, but we feel safe cause they won’t hurt us. It’s the same as rape fantasies. Some women find rape fantasies appealing, but doesn’t mean that actual rape would be a good experience.
Adam says
The best way to understand the whole idea of the bad boy and nice guy is to think of this issue from the point of view of economics. More specifically, the “revealed preference theory, in economics, a theory, introduced by the American economist Paul Samuelson in 1938…The theory entails that if a consumer purchases a specific bundle of goods, then that bundle is “revealed preferred,” given constant income and prices, to any other bundle that the consumer could afford.” In other words, what Samuelson is saying in plain language, is that no matter what the consumer says or doesn’t say, his actual preference is for what she actually buys. Not what she should buy or surveys say she should buy or what psychologists say she SHOULD buy or some other piece of nonsense. What she actually DOES buy. In the case of women, a smart man ignores what she says and looks at what kind of guy women ACTUALLY sleep with and ACTUALLY date.
Women have almost complete control, collectively of the dating market. If women, collectively decided that they didn’t want to sleep with and have relationships with jerks, a-holes, abusive guys, bad boys, etc., these would disappear practically overnight. If being a gentleman really worked to attract and keep a woman, they would have to adjust and change their behavior to fit this model. But with all of the women that throw themselves at these bad guys, there is ABSOLUTELY no incentive for them to do so. Again, not ALL women prefer this but MOST do. Women collectively bemoan the rise of pick up artists, but all pickup artists are essentially, are guys who got sick to death of being rejected by women and began to simply emulate the bad boy behavior which so many of you find attractive.
Noemi says
@ Jeremy, you stated:
“For example, take a situation where one spouse (gender irrelevant) tells the other that s/he wants to move to a new neighborhood, and the other spouse does not want to do so. A man would look at the request and consider himself as being “nice” if he acquiesced, irrespective of his own desires and arguments. A woman would consider acquiescing to be a sign of a lack of backbone. If the man were to acquiesce to the woman, she would view him as less attractive. If the woman were to acquiesce to the man, he would view her as MORE attractive.”
Most women I know would appreciate this, and I am being honest. In fact, when I discuss moving out of an apartment to a house, and my boyfriend sees no reason to move, as it is close to the bars downtown and to HIS work, and offers the amenities that HE wants, it turns me off. When my boyfriend grunts and moans if I ask him to walk my dog, it turns me off. When he huffs and puffs about helping me move out of my apartment, it turns me off. When he’d rather ride his motorcycle than help me wash our apartment carpet, it turns me off.
“If I were to say I believe in monogamy, want a family one day, I have a good job, am continuing my education during the evenings and regularly attend church and actually believe in cherishing my woman and not verbally abusing her or playing games, this could be all quite shocking and she would probably run away. “
In my eyes, who is the only woman who would run away from this? A 21 year-old who is still looking to have fun.
Adam says
Noemi, the points I described reflect a nice, “safe” guy. A lot of women aren’t turned on by this. I don’t understand why this is, it just is. The traits I described fit one of my good friends to a T. He loved his girlfriend to pieces. He had a good job, went to church, was the “perfect boyfriend.” She ran away to sleep with a bad boy.
When I was younger, I saw numerous cases of women running after bad boys and avoiding good guys. Why is this? Who knows? As a guy I don’t know why it is. But as Evan pointed out, this is the way things are and guys just need to learn what women want and adopt this behavior. It seems like the sense of unpredictability and danger turn women on. These traits can be faked, just look at the case of the students who had recently graduated college with honors who were dressing like gangsters and playing loud music at a party, probably in an attempt to impress women. The neighbors were so alarmed by these “bad boys” they called the police and that is when their deception was uncovered.But isn’t that crazy. They are honest student, who just graduated a prestigious university and have gotten law degrees, yet, they feel like they have to dress like thugs and act like idiots.
Noemi says
@ Adam, you said: “I am not envious, but I do admire the guys you described. They not only are able to sleep with whatever women they want to sleep with including your sister, they will also have no trouble when the decide to settle down and have a real relationship with a woman who actually loves them and they actually love.”
I have to disagree with the above statements. Yes, these men are sleeping with a vast number of women, but you fail to recognize that these women are shallow. When these men decide to settle down, they will find it more difficult to attract the right woman. Why? Those notches in their belt and their fancy house and cars just won’t do it anymore. The techniques used on the shallow women don’t work on the real women. These men don’t have the depth that real women want because they didn’t have to work hard to attract women.
Case in point: I knew a guy named Frank since middle school. Boy, was he a hottie! We attended different high schools, but I saw him again on my college campus. We made eye contact a few times, but I really wasn’t interested. After college, I ran into him at a bar, and he approached me. We talked, and I gave him my number. He was excited about me, and told his friends about how pretty I was (as they told me afterward).
I met him and a group of his friends at a restaurant for dinner and drinks. I had a good time, as I enjoyed the company of his friends, but something was off. He didn’t converse with me much of that night. Although I made an effort to be receptive to him, I realized he was expecting me to do all of the work. I later found out that he was banging our waitress at that time, and after she saw me with him, she went home and cried her eyes out. That was the last time we saw each other. I politely declined his subsequent invitations (late night texts to “hang out”….eew).
Fast forward a few years, and I now realize that this guy was boring and uninteresting. Because he had girls flocking around him, he didn’t have to do any of the work. He didn’t have to practice his conversational skills. He didn’t have to appear interesting to women. All he had to do was look good. All that you have left is a good-looking guy who is good in bed, but with no personality–a dud. I bet he’ll have a hard time finding a good girl when the time comes! A good girl knows there’s more to a guy than his good looks.
“Women will consider all of their bad boy womanizing a major positive and she will love him just that much more. Women love former players. They all dream of being the one who captures his heart and they also love the idea of other women wanting to sleep with their man and not being able to.”
This may describe many women, but not all. As we grow older, we realize that a player with a horrible track record is a questionable boyfriend, much less husband. If I knew that a guy I was dating had slept with many women, I would think “what’s stopping him from continuing that behavior now?”
“Nice guys are essentially the equivalent of fat, unattractive women. They like them, might marry them because they are nice, respectful and provide stable income, but they don’t really get their motor running like players, jerks and other bad boys do.”
It’s not the niceness that repels women–it’s the lack of balls so prevalent among nice men. My problem with nice men is that they have a difficult time conveying their interest in a woman beyond a polite hello and smile. A woman can be as receptive as she can and lay out all the indicators of her interest in him, but it is frustrating for her to wait…and wait for the nice guy to pull the trigger and ask her out.
Why is it that the men we want to talk to don’t approach us, yet the obnoxious ones often do? A while ago, I was interested in a man who moved in across the street to me. I knew he was interested because I caught him staring at me a few times, and often looked at me a little longer than usual. So, I would make a point of walking my dog by his house and saying hi. He would also say hello when he saw me…yet, the day he moved out I ran into him again…he had the look of desperation in his eyes because he knew he’d never see me again. To this day, I wished I had initiated a conversation. I only know his name…Brian. I regret not having the guts to do anything. I LOATHE “what if’s” in life. Yet, today, I had some dude in the neighborhood holler at me from his car about wanting to walk with my dog and me.
Here’s a lesson to all you nice guys: Gather whatever is left of your ego and approach her! What’s the worst that could happen?
“It seems like the sense of unpredictability and danger turn women on. These traits can be faked, just look at the case of the students who had recently graduated college with honors who were dressing like gangsters and playing loud music at a party, probably in an attempt to impress women. The neighbors were so alarmed by these “bad boys” they called the police and that is when their deception was uncovered. But isn’t that crazy. They are honest student, who just graduated a prestigious university and have gotten law degrees, yet, they feel like they have to dress like thugs and act like idiots.”
Neither I nor any of my girlfriends have ever been interested in a man who dresses and acts like a thug. Hell, I’d be impressed to know the object of my interest has a law degree. But I’m just speaking for those within my social circle and myself.
Adam says
Noemi, I am a former nice guy, you make some great points. They do need to approach more women and be more direct. Not being more direct was a major mistake I made when I was younger and I see how that would be frustrating to women. One thing I encountered over and over again when I was a nice guy, is girls who seemed to be attracted to me, would become disinterested and seem to drift away if I was nice to them. They would just suddenly lose interest. Everything would start so promising but their interest just seemed to fall apart. On the other hand, I would see bad boys around me having their pick of women. I didn’t understand it.
I was SO depressed about this, I talked to all my female friends, I was told I was a “great catch,” to be myself and to continue being nice. I always ended up in the same place following their advice. A total failure. I remember in my darkest hour many, many years ago, thinking to myself, I have to change. At the time, I was the only virgin in my circle of friends. So I had many things going badly for me. Being a nice, shy guy is bad enough, but if women didn’t get turned off by personality, they ran and ran fast when they discovered I was a virgin. Somehow they were able to figure this out, even though I didn’t tell them. It was pretty horrible. Everyone knows that one of the top things that turns off and repulses women are male virgins. And a nice guy one, was just frankly disgusting. It is the male equivalent of a four hundred pound woman — in spandex. Not sexually attractive at all and actually disgusting.
Anyway, from that moment on, I decided to change things. I started getting counseling to handle my anxiety and depression and really put a major effort into improving this area. As part of that I began to study the art of pickup. I am not a master pickup artist unfortunately, but I am much, much better than I was. I have learned so much, but one of the first thing that helped me get into my first long term relationship, was a concept pickup artists call this the “empty restaurant phenomena.” In other words, a man that is successful with women can be compared to a “full restaurant.” It has a lot of business and attracts more business because people figure it is busy because it is good. Success feeds on itself. On the other hand, an empty restaurant may be better than the full restaurant, the food may be better, the service may be better, everything can be better, but people avoid it because it is empty. It is one of the reason why nice guys struggle with relationships and bad boys and jerks don’t. Basically if a woman perceives a guy has lots of options (a full restaurant), she is more likely to go with him, be a good girlfriend and stay with him. If she perceives that he is a typical nice guy, who doesn’t have so many options, she either won’t date him, or if she does she won’t value him so much. He is an “empty restaurant” and therefore he must not be very good. Others have mentioned this phenomena and told guys to simply “improve themselves” and “get better” over time. However, the pickup community has a far better solution, one that I employed that helped me lose my virginity, so many years ago and get into my first relatively long term relationship. Deception. If the “restaurant is empty, deception is absolutely necessary and must be practiced. What does this mean? It means that any means must be used in order to convince the woman that the “restaurant is full.” What does this mean in practice? It means not changing who you are, but absolutely lying about your sexual history. It means taking whatever actions are necessary to fool the woman into thinking you are attractive to other women. There are many ways and means of convincing her of this. And when I noticed how well this worked, I was hooked. And by doing exactly the opposite of what all my female friends had told me to do. And at that moment, I began my recovery from being a nice guy, to a guy who is actually effective. It is crazy, I am currently single, but if I tell girls I have a girlfriend, they are FAR more interested. The minute I told her “I have a girlfriend,” she was all over me and we ended up going home together. Another thing I learned from pickup. Honesty is certainly not the best policy. And what women say they want is certainly NOT what they want. Don’t be angry with me. I don’t make the rules, I just live by them. Once I rack up enough experience, THEN I can be honest. But not until that point.
The guy you describe, Frank, who was cheating on some poor girl was simply a jerk. There is no reason to tell a woman you are exclusive if you are not. There is no reason to play with her emotions. In my view, a true alpha male, a true player, wouldn’t hide this fact. He would be upfront and straightforward and women would STILL want him. A great book on this subject is called Mode One: Tell the Women What You Are REALLY Thinking by Alan Roger Currie. Again, on the flip side, if a man wants a REAL relationship, he should be open and direct about this as well. And women need to be upfront, honest and direct as well.
Noemi says
You’re right about the “empty restaurant phenomena.” This seems to work with men as well, however. Men are attracted to the pretty girl who obviously has options. They feel good when she wants them over other guys who are vying for her.
I’ve read a few books about pickup artistry, and I have to say that most of that stuff works. It’s based on neurolinguistic programming, which is effective in influencing and attracting people: Increase your value by acting like you have other options. Never be afraid to walk away from a target of interest. Be original. Don’t use the cheesy pick-up lines that all men use.
We all want what we can’t have, and the woman who went home with you after you mentioned your girlfriend is a sucker for getting what she perceives she can’t have, and her moral compass is skewed a bit.
Yes, pickup artistry works for attracting women, but it’s missing something crucial, I.e. how to keep them.
Adam says
Noemi,
As a man, I’m attracted to woman, even if other men aren’t into her. I am not attracted to some women that tons of men are into. For example, a lot of men are attracted to the “huge booty” (actually obese) women. This turns me off, I don’t want some chick who is obese. You don’t have to be super model skinny, but if you are 100+ pounds overweight, this is simply disgusting.
Yes, pickup does work. Making women think you are a player with a checkered history does work. The advice women have given for countless years, of being nice, of being yourself, of being “real,” of “opening up,” to your woman, is a complete and utter failure. That is why I am advocate what I advocate. I have been depressed. I have been at the bottom. I know what was keeping me there. My own depression and anxiety and beyond that, all the bad advice I got from my female friends and relatives.
As to keeping women, in a long term relationship, it is essential that the woman know that you have tons of options and always be on her best behavior. If she thinks you are too nice and too devoted, she will leave. Always be willing and able to walk away. Always have a prenup. A pickup artist is more likely to keep a woman than a kind, nice respectful guy. Once again, the nice guy finishes last.
What I have described is 100% opposite of what young men are taught. And that is the problem with male female relations today.
Karmic Equation says
Adam,
I dated the nice guys in my 20s, was married to a nice guy through my 30s, then was the gf of a reformed bad boy for 6 years, and then the gf of a “major” player (as a girl warned me) for about a year, and dated a wanna-be player for 9-months. And in that same 9 months I dated some nice guys for one to three dates.
So I think I have a good basis of comparison on between bad boys and nice guys.
One nice guy had been a friend for over a year before he finally asked me out. I knew him to be a really good person and already recognized that he would have been a devoted, loyal, and kind boyfriend. The problem was I was undecided about how attracted I was to him. He was slightly overweight, balding, but not ugly. I just wasn’t sure if I could see him being my lover. So while I was still ambivalent about my attraction to him, he started offering to come over and cuddle with with me during a snowstorm. He called me the day of the storm to see if I needed shoveling out. His offers came from a good place, but he was putting pressure on me to decide whether I was attracted to him or not. And since it wasn’t a no-brainer YES! I had to go with no. If he had given me time to date him some more to see if my attraction could grow, it might have been different. But his pressure forced me to make a quick decision. He and I are still friends, but I kinda sorta had to do a vanishing act on him for a little while.
I had one date with another nice guy who was divorced for about a year, after having been married to his HS sweetheart for over 20 yrs. I gave him a very sexy good night kiss after our first date when he walked me to my car. And in a text a day or so later, he says “I thought you were going to pull me into the car with you!” — In the meantime, I’m thinking, “Wow, he’s been deprived” because while the kiss I gave him was hot, it was definitely NOT the “I want to jump your bones” kind of kiss he interpreted it to be. Again, my attraction to him was probably about a 5-6 and I was open to dating him some more to see if the attraction would build. So after about a week, he texts, “Can I assume you’re not interested?” From that I surmised that he was used to women texting or contacting him regularly after a date, while I was in do-nothing mode waiting for him to ask for a next date. I don’t remember how I replied to him. I was friendly but probably not friendly enough in his mind because he never contacted me again. His loss.
The moral of the stories is that “nice guys” don’t seem to know how to handle their sexual attraction and inadvertently push too fast for a decision from the woman on that attraction before the woman is ready to make it. The reality is that most “nice guys” are NOT hot. And if a guy is “not hot” a girl needs time to get to know him to build that attraction. And, luckily for guys, there’s an alternate way into a girl’s pants when he’s not-hot. Unlike for girls, who don’t get any chance at a guy if she’s not hot (to him) to start unless he has beer goggles on.
When you force a woman to make a decision about her attraction to you before she’s ready, it’s going to be no. And this is coming from a woman who’s has no probs with ONS and NSA sex.
I think one of the reasons PUA tactics work is because it teaches a guy to NOT pressure a girl on a decision about her attraction. It’s no different than how men will say “no” to a relationship if a girl pressures him for a decision before he’s ready. Both genders need space to make those decisions. And pressure forces both sexes to the NO side.
So nice guys, take heed. Just as Evan advises women to not pressure guys for commitment and let him offer it, men need to do the same about attraction. Don’t make us make a decision about our attraction to you when we’re on the fence.
But this is the paradox, though: Bad boys won’t ASK to kiss a girl good night, he’ll just do it. He doesn’t ask if he can touch her, he just does it. But he pays attention if she moves his hands somewhere else. No means no, even if not orally spoken.
Adam says
Karmic Equation:
You said: “The reality is that most “nice guys” are NOT hot. And if a guy is “not hot” a girl needs time to get to know him to build that attraction. And, luckily for guys, there’s an alternate way into a girl’s pants when he’s not-hot. Unlike for girls, who don’t get any chance at a guy if she’s not hot (to him) to start unless he has beer goggles on.”
Completely agree with your point. You are 100% right. And you make other great points in your post above as well.
That is WHY guys need to learn pickup, definitely lie about their past and actually pretend to be long term players. They need to fake it until they make it. They need to pretend to be the promiscuous, hot, player, bad boy and as they pretend this, they will eventually become this. And at that point, if they want a long term relationship, they can have it and not only that, the woman will love them FAR more than if they had simply been a nice, respectful guy who appreciated them. Most women don’t consider that attractive.
Women are much more likely to stay around if they know you have had lots of women in the past and you can get more women at any point should you decide to do so. That is one great way to keep women around. This can be done many ways. The best way is to have a promiscuous, womanizing past and for her to know about this. She should also know that you lover her dearly and you should never cheat. But she should know that you can find another woman in about five seconds if she breaks up with you.
As to “getting to know” a woman, these nice guys are usually too straightforward and honest with women, especially about things that women consider unattractive. They are not sexually aggressive enough. So again, they need to learn what kinds of subjects and discussions women find exciting and interesting and engage in those. For example, describe the last fight you got in, or make up something if you aren’t the kind of person that fights regularly. They will love that.
They need to hide and lie about things which instantly turn women off. For example, I stay in regular touch with my mother. I don’t call her every day, but I call her at least a few times a week. I try to help her with money whenever I can. Her phone was acting up a while ago so I bought her a new one. A nice guy might mention this to a woman he was dating. I am wise enough to know that this kind of information would TURN OFF a woman, so I don’t mention it. If I were to mention this fact to a woman or she were to discover it, it would TURN OFF the woman and she would LEAVE. So nice guys need to avoid this subject and avoid many other subjects which turn women off.
Traveller says
@Noemi:
You stated: “you fail to recognize that these women are shallow.”
Noemi, the overwhelming majority of women ARE shallow. So are most guys.
You have to play the game with the cards you have, not the ones you wish for.
Noemi says
“Yes, pickup does work. Making women think you are a player with a checkered history does work.”
“As to keeping women, in a long term relationship, it is essential that the woman know that you have tons of options and always be on her best behavior. If she thinks you are too nice and too devoted, she will leave.”
“A pickup artist is more likely to keep a woman than a kind, nice respectful guy. Once again, the nice guy finishes last.”
The pickup artists can have the foolish girls. Checkered history? No thanks. Nice and devoted? Yes, please. If approaching and making the first move is what it takes for me to get a great guy without some shady past of being a player, then I am game! Grabbin’ these cojones and off I go to do some approaching! ;-D
Adam says
Pickup works on all girls, not only foolish girls. Good girls, bad girls, girls in between. They love it and eat it up. If it didn’t work, we wouldn’t do it.
starthrower68 says
Emphasis on “girls”.
Nhuan Van says
How do you manage to do that? Nice men like myself have been burned many times and I do have a backbone and treated my ex like a queen and she think I am not good enough for her. Become a gentleman with a backbone that are the same as been a nice guy and they still dump the guy.
Henriette says
Being a nice man (or woman) is no guarantee that you’ll never be dumped. But if your end goal is a healthy, mutually-respectful relationship, the only way to achieve that is to be a nice person and to pick a partner who is also a nice person.
Al says
Nicely said Henriette. I’d go a little further even and say that, just because someone breaks up with you, that doesn’t mean that they are not a nice person. It just means that they recognized the two of you were not compatible. There are often seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to demonize anyone who rejects us. It can be a difficult process, for sure, finding someone who is both a kind person and also a proper fit. Sometimes personalities simply do not mesh through no fault of either party.
Nhuan says
Hi Henriette,
I agree with that part but Henri, I went through an abuse relationship where my ex don’t see me like a human even I stand up to her. I try compromise with her and yet she see this as a game. let just say “The grass is always greener on the other side”
N says
Adam,
Pickup works on some women. NOT all women. But you need to have the package– hot, attractive, sharp-wit, great sense of humor, confidence to pick up women.
Now, keeping a woman in a LTR with all the lies and pretenses is another story. Goodluck! Nic
McLovin says
“Now, keeping a woman in a LTR with all the lies and pretenses is another story.”
When the alternative is to be totally celibate, guys will choose short-term all day long.
The vast majority of women don’t want LTR’s these days, anyway…unless they are with high-value men who are mostly unavailable/uninterested in said LTR.
Adam says
Completely agree.
I know multiple former bad boys who decided to settle down and they have wonderful relationships with women who absolutely adore them. Compare that to the “nice, respectful” guys like I used to be. The “nice guys” are usually walked all over by women and treated like sh*t. One of my “nice guy” friends was cheated on by his girlfriend over 10 times that I know of. The total was probably much higher.
Karmic Equation says
Hey, if a guy or girl remains in a relationship with someone after that someone has cheated more than once, then that guy or girl created their own misery.
What incentive do cheaters have to straighten up if they’re continually forgiven for cheating.
Either the guy really didn’t care that she was cheating, cuz she was hotter than anyone else he could ever get, so he let her get away with that crap. Or he didn’t care that much about her cheating as long as she “came home” to him. I suspect she finally dumped him instead of him dumping her. And that’s when he started to harp on her cheating.
Guys need boundaries too. It’s his own fault he got cheated on that many times. He could have stopped it at 1.
Adam says
You are right. I don’t know if he was aware of her cheating but he was certainly aware of it after they broke up. And I don’t know if he dumped her or vice versa, but whatever the case, he was being too nice to her.
But my larger point is these “nice” guys don’t have many options and they end up putting up with disgusting behavior by women, instead of exhibiting the abundance mindset like a player would.
Trevor says
Unfortunately, many nice guys end up ‘missing the boat’ on dating/having sex with younger attractive women as these women are busy chasing bad boys in their prime years. It’s not until these women pass their prime (early-mid 30s) that their interests tend to reverse.
All is not lost for nice guys though… confidence, and not being clingy are the real keys to a [hot and young] woman’s heart.
Kristie says
From an emotional perspective, rather than a scientific perspective, I’ve become aware that I tend to fall for the “bad boy” when I’m lacking something emotionally–needing emotional closure from childhood or traumatic event, lacking emotional self-worth, or was emotionally illiterate. “Bad boys” or the kind of “males” you describe, will tend to create a reflection of your “bad” behavior if you let them, and it’s “easier” to process and recognize another person’s flaws than one’s own flaws. And since our brains process information emotionally first, then rationally, it seems one’s emotional intelligence is not fully developed or was “wired” differently from the start.
starthrower68 says
I think that is on the right track. Most of the stuff I have read says our “wounded inner child of the past” is drawn to certain people, as they seem to symbolize that parent(s) with whom we had a bad relationship or none at all. We are attracted to that unavailable type for a few reasons. But none of them the right ones.
Adam says
Kristie and Starthrower68:
We are attracted to who we are attracted to. I wouldn’t want to marry a woman I am not massively turned on by and I wouldn’t expect a woman to marry a man who she is not massively into as well.
But having said that, we both, men and women, need to face reality. Not reality as we want it to be, but reality as it is. We need to stop being so politically correct with each other. Men need to communicate, observe and really understand, really what women need and want deep down inside. We need to strive to be the kind of man that attracts and keeps a woman happy and satisfied, not only physically but emotionally as well. That is what we should do. As men, if we are not this kind of man, we need to work to change ourselves so that we are this kind of man. That kind of man is NOT described as “nice” and “respectful.” He is not the “good guy” who will make a “great catch for someone.”
A problem with men, is we are so caught up in Disney movies, romantic comedies, advice from well meaning but totally wrong friends and family and our own wishful thinking, we aren’t observing what women are actually attracted to. That is our problem.
Trevor is right in that men need to be confident, but it goes far beyond that. Men need to read a variety of sites, not only this site, but pickup sites as well, to learn what kinds of behavior attracts women and then they need to exhibit this behavior. They need to stop “being themselves” and “being nice guys” and “great catches,” and actually start being effective with women. They need to emulate the guys that women sleep with. They need to lie about and hide things in their background that turn women off. For example, as I mentioned before, I call my mother regularly (few times a week), give her money when I can and bought her an Iphone when her old phone died. Am I going to tell a woman who I want to attract about this. Hell no.
Henriette says
And, Adam, I’m curious about what you think women need to do and how we need to change. I’m not snarking; I’m genuinely interested in what you think about this. If good guys are all pretending to be players and to not take care of their mothers, what should the good girls pretend to be?
Adam says
I don’t think women need to change or do something different. I love good women and I dream of marrying a nice girl one day. I have always dreamed of meeting Ms Right and getting married in a beautiful wedding and having kids. I have always dreamed of making a girl super happy and taking care of her and loving her forever. When I was a little kid and some of my female friends were playing house, I would play the father to the little doll. I have a very close relationship with my parents and always will. I am not “exciting” and “thrilling.” I have a good job and go to church regularly. That is really who I am and how I feel.
But through many years of trying and failing and seeing bad guys and players get the girls, while I lost, lost and lost more when women I decided I needed to make massive changes in my life. At the time of this decision, I had been stuck in a deep depression and I would regularly cry to myself at night about why women seemed to not be attracted to me at all. They liked me as a friend, but not as any kind of boyfriend, although they said I would make a great girlfriend for someone someday.
Of course, as someone who has some basic training in sales, I know that in selling something, the prospect is not going to change. You have to change how you market yourself and the image of the product. In other words, I needed to change women’s image of myself. And that is what I view PUA stuff as. Things you can do to become more attractive.
Traveller says
@Henriette:
Women need to learn to be honest, and to communicate in a style that men can understand. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don’t guess; ask, straight out. Volunteer information, don’t wait to be quizzed. Don’t expect anyone to read your mind. Say what you need. Offer to help. If you can’t help, stay out of the way. Don’t play games. Don’t demand the impossible. Think before speaking. Be careful what you ask for, because you might get it. Don’t humiliate him. Never threaten. Don’t play hard to get. Treat him with respect, even when you’re pissed at him. Listen. When he asks you what you want, tell him, and be specific. Don’t ‘hint’. Never reward bad behavior. Don’t put him in impossible situations. Hear what he actually says, not what you want to hear. Don’t ask him to fix your life for you. Never accuse; ask. Don’t cheat. Never stay with a cheater. Don’t hold grudges. Respect yourself. Don’t make him afraid to be honest with you. When he apologizes, accept it. Ask all the same things of him; he’ll thank you for it. And when he gives you his heart, don’t break it.
SparklingEmerald says
Henriette asked Adam ” If good guys are all pretending to be players and to not take care of their mothers, what should the good girls pretend to be?”
Well, while boys were being schooled in the art of PUA, we were being schooled in the art of playing hard to get.
I suppose these things “work” for people who like to play games, but as for a genuine relationship, I don’t really see how.
It saddens me to see Adam talking about what a good, genuine, family guy he is, but he feels the need to be some bad boy player. He might meet his dream girl some day, and she won’t even recognize him as the great guy that he was, because he has become some caricature of a bad-ass player. (Do you wear a purple fedora Adam ?)
In my youth I have been told MANY times that I need to play hard to get. That I let on that I like a guy too early on (also have told that I’ve been too picky). I’ve read “The Rules” and thought it was dumbest advice in the dating advice Universe. I was beginning to think playing hard to get really WAS the key, because the guys I was attracted to, didn’t seem to want me, and the guys that I WASN’T attracted to wouldn’t stop pursuing me, even after I told them in no uncertain terms that we weren’t a match. But I can’t hide my feelings if I really like a guy, and even if I could play that game, there would be NO satisfaction for me in a relationship, if I couldn’t safely express myself.
I think finding MUTUAL attraction, affection and compatibility takes time and lots of rejection along the way. Pretending to be something you are not (as Adam is doing) might get you a lot of no strings attached booty calls, and maybe Adam plans on trying to turn a booty call into a real relationship if he meets a girl that he thinks he could fall in love with and marry. But a girl who would fall for his PU schtick might not be the marrying kind, and the marrying kind might not fall for his pick up schtick. I know the snake oil salesman peddling this crap say that this works on 100% of the women, but that’s just salesman crap-talk.
I didn’t do anything or change myself in major way and after 3 lonely post divorce years I met my match. I didn’t play games, I didn’t “train” him to follow “The Rules”. I didn’t chase him, but he pursued me, and I was very responsive to his pursuit. He says he loves how affectionate and playful I am. If I had let those 3 years of being rejected by men that I liked, and being practically stalked by men I rejected, convince me to start playing silly hard to get games, I might not be with the great guy I am with now. I doubt that he would have tolerated such nonsense.
And yes, my guy is a GOOD MAN, who takes care of his grandchildren. He told me from the beginning that he picks up his grandkids from school on half days, to help out his daughter. He takes his neighbor/biking buddy to his doctor appointments. He has served food in homeless shelters. He and I have a “date” to do community service for a children’s organization together next month. (He asked me about my volunteer work, and asked if he could join me) NONE of his care taking for his family, friends and the community was a turn off TO ME. It just confirmed for me, that I had found my match.
Adam and all the other guys here who are looking for an excuse to be a bad ass might say that I am some sort of exception, but I don’t believe that I am.
I just don’t see how pretending to be something you are not works. You might get into a relationship, but then you have to spend the entire relationship being a fake version of yourself. Totally not worth it in my opinion. I would opt for being un-coupled over living a lie.
Traveller says
@ SparklingEmerald:
Bravo, Emerald. Seriously. Based on what you say, you exemplify exactly the kind of woman I have always wanted to meet. Sadly, I have found very few who live up to your example.
But I keep hoping.
Adam says
SparklingEmerald: Thank you for your kind words. No I don’t wear a purple fedora. I dress normally. Primarily what I deal in is deception. Honestly, I don’t have the heart to be as bad as I need to be to REALLY attract women, so sometimes I engage in lies and deception to bridge the difference between as bad as I feel I can be comfortably and the level of bad I need to be in order to really attract women.
For example, I hate cheating and cheaters. If I am with someone, I am with them. If I am not with them I am not with them. It seems cowardly to cheat on your woman or for a woman to cheat on her man. But having said that, tons of women are extremely attracted to men they perceive as cheating on their girlfriend or wife. Many women find single men a turn off because they think that if a guy was really attractive he would be with a woman. A lot of women get extremely turned on by the idea of sleeping with a guy with a girlfriend or wife. I am currently single, but there have been times where I have told women I was in a relationship just for this reason. I have heard of single guys going to the next level and actually buying fake wedding bands. On that note one of my married friends told me that he had to stop wearing his wedding band at work because it caused so many women to come onto him. Once he took it off, the number of women coming onto him dropped sharply. Another successful tactic, is coming to venues with one of my attractive friends. The women in the club think that the girl and I are dating, a wrong impression, which I don’t bother to correct.
A girl I am attracted to and want to have a real relationship won’t fall for any PUA tricks. But the fact that I have a long history of bedding other women, will, in her mind, be a major positive. In other words, even the good girls want a guy with some bad in them.
SparklingEmerald, you are a good woman and your husband is definitely lucky to have you. But younger women, in their 20s and early 30s, just don’t work that way for the most part. I don’t understand why this is, but they don’t. You talk about being rejected for two years. I was rejected by women for over ten years. Let me say that again, TEN YEARS of no sex, no relationships, no real affection. Ten years of being told what a great friend I am. Ten years of being told over and over again what a great catch I would make for some lovely girl. Ten years of following advice from my friends and family. Ten years of total and utter failure. Things didn’t begin to change until I was in my mid 20s and even when I decided to turn things around, it has taken years go get to where I am now.
Even after I decided to turn things around, I STILL had a lot to learn. My first real girlfriend, shortly after my epiphany was a girl I met through some friends. She was in her late 20s, maybe a 4 or 5 on the 1-10 scale, but she seemed devoted to church and devoted to family which were major positives in my book. Even though she wasn’t 100% my physical type, I decided to date her and for a while we were happy. She had a daughter and her daughter really liked me. I thought to myself, ready made family, this is perfect. Perhaps we will end up getting engaged and married down the line. When we first started dating, she said she wanted to wait for the sex, so I waited for a month and a half until she felt “comfortable with me.” Everything seemed to be going on well, that is, until, I found out several months after we started dating that my girl who seemed like such a “good girl,” and such a nice, respectful, church-going, God fearing person, had had sex with over 100 guys. Not only that her daughter had not been fathered not, by “her former fiancee” but buy some random gang member from Compton. And before we started dating, she had a LONG history as a c*m dumpster who would go to parties where she would let guys do anything and everything with her. I mean literally, none of these guys had to wait at all before doing stuff with her. Before we got together she was just disgusting. And here she is, trying to play the good girl. I was shattered. I spoke to her about this calmly and respectfully. She started crying and eventually admitted everything was true. Here I was, buying this chick dinners and trying to form a relationship with someone who is essentially a born-again whore. And even beyond that, she didn’t understand why I would find this upsetting. That was what drove me crazy. And THAT is the fate, in my view, of the guy who is nice and respectful. At the end of the day, you might get lucky and find someone like yourself. Or they might end up with some girl like my ex.
Noemi says
That’s sad. I have always helped my parents with finances, and I imagine I always will (grew up in poverty with blue-collar working class parents, and had the guts to pursue higher ed). I hope a man would find that endearing.
starthrower68 says
Adam, you don’t have to explain to me. First, I’m not a member of the PC camp, secone, as reader of this blog, I’m well aware of the realities of dating. You wanna do the PUA thing, then have at it. Folks gonna do what they gonna do.
355 says
The more comments I read, the more I realize that no matter what I try or do I’ll never get a kiss let alone a relationship, sex, or marriage. I’m 41 and yet I’ve failed spectacularly to do what many do at 14. I’m been called nice so much, but it’s meaningless. It’s not sexy to be nice and that’s clear as day. I don’t have a backbone, but have tried to have a backbone. It’s unnatural and I come off as mean and cruel. A positive, hard to find one, but at least I won’t be cheated on. A myth is that I wont have a broken heart. It’s permanently broken. I’m resigned to the fact. I have a nice house in the burbs, a nice car, a nice stable job. Could be worse.
Adam says
I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from. While I was never a 41 year old virgin, I really feel for you. The exact same thing happened to me when I was younger. Guys who are “perfect” on paper, generally don’t get the girl. “Nice guys” nearly always finish last. Women settle for “nice guys,” they generally aren’t the first choice.
What you have to do, is start changing yourself. Start with small things and build up to bigger things. Rome wasn’t built overnight and your change from beta to alpha won’t happen overnight either. You have to fake it to make it. As to coming off as mean, women are more attracted to the mean guy than they are to the “nice guy,” but personally I hate being mean to women. You just have to stick to your beliefs and not bend.
Even at 41, you can still get women, provided you lie about your history and why you are single. As long as you change your personality and lie about your history, it is never too late.
Sass says
@NASHWC: No its not all up to men? Really? It’s not within your power to chose to date women who are average or slightly above average (she didn’t say obese anywhere)
I’ll agree that crazy and bitchy comes in all shapes and sizes but I think what Karmic Equation is saying that is that average looking women are often overlooked by these men always pursuing the supermodel types (apologies if I’m wrong on that, don’t want to put words in your mouth). It’s not the supermodel types are all bitchy, it’s that there’s nothing to check their bitchy behavior because there will still be men lining up for them regardless of what bitches they are.
The same can be said of men who are very attractive or rich who are also assholes (not mutually exclusive, by the way). If they are assholes they know there are women who will still want them so what’s their motivation for changing? They may be with them DESPITE the shitty behavior not because of.
Yes some women chose to be with a severely flawed man because he’s hot or rich (or they want to fix him or get some short term thrill) But to believe that women are biologically programmed to lust after the worst of the gender is just stupid. That’s projection at its most extreme. You all are just not noticing the millions of average girls out there dating decent guys because that’s not noticeable or fodder for a bitch fest about how illogical and hypocritical “all” women are.
Al says
Well, fantasy is all about excitement, right? Why do men drool over the sexy, mud wrestling vixens of the world? Do they think that type of surgery enhanced sexually aggressive woman would make a great wife and mother? Doubt it! We aren’t all that different. Those “bad boy” characters are confident, aggressive and overtly sexual. They have the same appeal as artists like Lil Kim do for a lot of men. There’s a reason women who behave in a tough, promiscuous way sell more records. Miley Cyrus may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but she sure is wealthy.
Thembile says
Vampires yeah!!! Love them 🙂
But in real life I like good guys,they are much more straight forward about what they want in a relationship.
Cornflake Girl says
I’ve been analyzing this as I’ve been dating. My feeling has become that it’s on the ability to create excitement and chemistry through confidence. In the same way men are attracted to overt femininity, bad boys are the extreme and the risk taking and unpredictability gets your endorphins going. I also think many females growing up, such as myself, we’re not raised by nice guys and didn’t have that built into them as a model for attraction. My dad was a classic narcissist so I have to fight with myself to avoid being drawn to that.
For really nice guys I have met I feel they could get a lot out of minor tweaks to behavior. One nice guy I dated, for example, had a really weak handshake and I could tell he lacked confidence. Changing that would probably change a lot of girls’ impression of him. Another simply didn’t know how to flirt and admitted it and I would have basically had to take the “male” role in the relationship.
So in many ways as you tell the women on here to act less alpha, the difference I’ve noticed between these two types is often the ability to take the man’s role act with confidence. You can still be a nice guy and this makes a lot of difference in how I perceive you.
Adam says
Cornflake Girl,
You make some excellent points. That is why I always say that men who have trouble with women need to stop being themselves and change who they are in order to attract women. Men need to look at what narcissists, bad boys and players are doing to attract women and simply emulate it. Don’t be angry about it. Just accept it and copy it. Men spend far too much time complaining about women and then men they choose instead of simply becoming these men.
We know that women for the most part, aren’t attracted to the nice, respectful gentleman who buys her flowers on the first date like in Disney movies. Ok, fine, guys, stop complaining about this. Stop sitting around mopping about this. Look at the guy she sleeps with on the first date, the guy she lusts after, the guy she chases, copy him. Who is this guy? How does he treat her? What does he say to her? We need to look at these things and copy them.
Cornflake Girl says
I think you’re taking it too far, and can’t sense if it’s sarcasm intended to drive a point home…that’s hard to read in type. Also, you’re really reading things into my points that aren’t even stated.
Essentially, what I am saying is, much like if I am an alpha female I am asked to lose some of that energy at home in order to have more success with men, women are attracted to alphas…so don’t be a doormat, don’t be a cold fish, work on your confidence. If you want to equate all confidence to narcissism, by all means go ahead, but you’re swinging too far the other way…everyone wants someone who is confident in them self…doesn’t mean it needs to go so far as to be a personality disorder. There’s a huge difference.
My mentioning the narc component, many women were not given a good role model and unless they have self awareness will repeat patterns. I’ve worked hard to overcome mine consciously.That is more of a comment on the WHY behind this attraction, not that it’s a good thing. Most women attracted to bad boys are insecurely attached and looking to repeat old patterns.
SparklingEmerald says
Adam – I am from a different generation than you, so maybe my experience doesn’t count, but I am happily in a relationship now. My honey is neither a “nice guy” or a “bad boy”, he’s a GOOD MAN ! I couldn’t tell you if he is an “alpha” or a “beta” or what his so called “SMV” is or where he rates on a scale of 1-10 with the general populace. All I see when I look at him is the man that I love ! And that is all I need.
All this modern day relationship lingo and catch phrases are meaningless now. Superficialities as far as height, income, social status, perfect good looks etc., have NEVER meant much to me. All I wanted was someone who I was attracted to, compatible with, who is reasonably financially stable (not wealthy or filthy rich) and who TREATS ME WELL. And he finally found me, and it’s better than I could have imagined it would be at my age.
I understand how you feel. For the 3 years after my divorce, I couldn’t understand why a nice, fairly cute but not drop dead gorgeous woman, who just wanted to be loved by a good man couldn’t find one. Even factoring in my age, 3 years seemed like an excessive amount of time to be looking for a relationship and not finding one. I’m not overly picky, I definitely am not a gold digger, I don’t play games, I don’t nag and criticize my relationship partner. I honestly thought about morphing into some bitchy, games playing “rules” girl, but that’s just not who I am. What’s the point of putting on a fake personality to win someone’s heart, if you are going to have to keep up the fake personality for the duration of the relationship ?
My sense Adam, is that you are a good man and that there is a woman who will love you for who you really are, that is, if she sees you for who you really are.
BTW, I am not that unique, maybe it’s the crowd I run with, (and the generation I am from) but none of my lady friends go for the bad boys either. I’ll admit, many of the marriages are sagging and floundering with age (marriage of 25 years plus), but it’s not due to marrying a “bad boy”. And my single lady friends, nope, they don’t go for the bad boys either.
My heart goes out to you Adam, and I would be delighted to come back to this blog someday and see that you found someone who loves YOU, for who you REALLY are.
Nick says
There are so few women like you though.
isayimnothere says
Totally right, the moment I stopped, being “nice” and started copying everything these charming guys did everything turned around. On average women love a man who doesn’t care about them very much, which I find stupid. I’d give my left leg for a girl who treated me half as well as I would have treated a girl before I figured out what they were attracted to. Its so strange. Cest’ la vie.
Nick says
Its not quality men like him nor their behavior, its you. What if his handshake was weak because he spent hours at the gym? Its women like you who have low self-esteem and good men who have high self-esteem.
Anonymous says
It’s actually worse……if women date bad boys and become decent men in the process, women leave them. Women, in general, view nice guys as material to devour…..not material to behold and appreciate. If you become a nice guy, you will become a doormat for her whims. These women don’t keep repeating the same sayings over and over again for no reason….”well behaved women rarely make history”
Buck25 says
Anonymous, as to your comment above, that’s possibly true, but ONLY if by ” becoming a nice guy”, you REALLY mean cutting off your nuts, handing them to her on a platter, along with your boundaries, and your spine, tape your mouth shut so you can’t say “No”, and while you’re at it, paint a bullseye on your butt with a sign that says, “Kick me please!” That might do it.
Otherwise, Bullshit!
Katie says
“Women, in general, view nice guys as material to devour……not material to behold and appreciate.”
Not me. I make penis shrines in the kitchen and hook sacrificial doughnuts on it every morning in humble worship.
jennifer goines says
Why do so many (young, attractive) women go for the bad boys? First of all, I suspect it’s important to distinguish that the women being referred to, are the ones putting themselves out there to gain validation of their attractiveness through their sexual encounters with men who are desired by other women, due to their own low self-esteem. So, a large element of this comprises of gaining peer envy for who they are seen to be with.
Men with high sexual market value display characteristics that demonstrate that they don’t need to settle down, are adored by many, and can take care of themselves. I don’t think the ideal TV boyfriend really is the ‘cold blooded murderer’ – but let’s take Norman Reedus as an example for the sake of it. Somehow, even though he has played a redneck in Walking Dead, the female fans love him. But then, we are in the age of the internet. Undoubtedly many people will know that in real life he was a model, and even has children with one of the world’s most beautiful supermodels, ever. Of course women looking for external validation would be drawn to him. But even if you were to consider just the fictional character he played – the guy always bounces back from every challenge, he made people around him ‘earn’ his time of day, and then he became the kind of person who would die for you (shown through action, and not excessive word exchange, so it never seemed he wanted or needed something back from the people he came to care for.) It’s the perfect persona of a boyfriend for someone who wants to take strength from another person, but who might themselves feel they have little in substance to offer in return.
A ‘bad boy’ is seen as a man that is not easy to tie down – so there is an element of sexual conquest and the feeling of gratification that comes from ‘winning’ and ‘scoring’, when the low self-esteem woman manages to bag one of them. Women are also brought up with confusing ideas of being the ‘nurturer’ and that love somehow should be ‘unconditional’. It’s very easy for emotionally immature women to fall into the trap of being with a physically desirable male that has some problems or issues, especially if it’s a man who doesn’t really want people to help – not only does this satisfy the ego-boosting need of bagging a physically desirable male (and thus ‘out-competing’ other attractive women), but it also satisfies their messiah complex of having the opportunity to try to ‘fix’ someone to make them whole, whilst also being able to stop trying to help if it’s not working (since they didn’t ask for any help in the first place anyway).
Many women with low self-esteem have difficulty accepting and respecting a man who clearly expends a lot of energy into thinking about her needs. Because they hold themselves in low regard, they start to question what is wrong with this man who places so much value and importance on her, and may (subconsciously) question his social status and his level of attractiveness to other women. A low self-esteem woman is fearful of a man becoming emotionally dependent on them, in case they are proved inadequate in providing the happiness which the male thinks he can get from her in return.
It’s worth noting that a lot of insecure women put a lot of effort into making themselves extra physically attractive, to over compensate for the lack they feel inside. That is not to say that emotionally secure women are unattractive. Many of them might have already formed a stable relationship not based on the chasing of endorphines characteristic of a push-pull relationship. But many men are just as guilty of wanting the kind of sex that largely comes from that kind of unhealthy relationship, so I’m going to call hypocrite on this.
Remember, women are people too. The men who over-focus on women who keep going for the bad boys, are probably guilty of over-looking the women who are more secure in themselves, and appreciate a stable man who respects her.
Karmic Equation says
Great post, Jennifer.
This makes a lot sense.
meg says
I’m pretty much only interested in Agent Coulson from Agents of SHIELD soooo yeah. Never have been interested in bad boy characters I suppose.
Amanda says
I like nice guys but I don’t like doormats who bend over backwards for me and seem like they don’t have a life. Men get being nice confused. Most women want to be with a kind/nice man, but a confident, driven, fun nice guy. Not a nice guy who texts you every single day when they first meet you and never disagrees with you or never puts his foot down and stands up to us. Well maybe that last part is just me.
bobby says
It is true, guys like me or doormats or being nice. Were used to it, but sometimes I rather be a doormat. Than a brooding good looking guy. Because, no matter how many hot girls they date or the girls next door. They will always be alone. Those mysterious guys have no idea, what it is like to be an outsider, being left out, treated like dirt and being take advantage of. Mostly those guys are the ones I respect.
Buck25 says
Actually Amanda, It’s not just you. Just as guys often don’t respect women who don’t have firm, consistent personal boundaries, most women don’t respect men who don’t have their own boundaries. That shows you, I would think, many of the same things you having your boundaries shows us-that you’re secure, confident in yourself, and have a healthy self-esteem. For those guys reading who don’t get Amanda’s discomfort with “doormats”, think of how you feel about a woman who lets herself be one. Do you like the feeling of stepping on her, or walking all over her, or feeling like you’re tiptoeing over eggshells trying not to? If you hate that feeling (and if you don’t, you have a really big problem), welcome to the world of decent human beings. Now remember that women (90% off them anyway), are also decent human beings, and usually even more sensitive to hurting someone that way than you are, and you’ll understand . Of course, they’ll test your boundaries; seriously guys, are you going to tell me we never push at a a woman’s, just to see if they’re still there? Of course we do! I’ve done it plenty, and you have too; so why be upset at them for doing it to us? I’ve never yet met a sane woman, who didn’t understand and respect one simple word. That word is “NO”. They use it, they understand it, and while they may not always like it, they respect it. There are a lot of different personality styles you can get away with in attracting and keeping women but there are at least three things you have to have to have a chance: BALLS, BOUNDARIES and a BACKBONE! Sometimes, you can mix in a little brains, bluster and bravado, too, in varying degrees, might help, might not; but be missing one of those first three “BIG B’s” ? A woman will spot that in nothing flat, and it’s GAME OVER, period. Simple as that. Before any of you guys start resenting that, tell me, exactly who is it that controls whether you actually have those three “BIG B’s” or not? That’s right, the only person who controls that, is YOU! Not women, YOU! Shakespeare was right, “…the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves…”
Vanessa says
You know how guys say crazy girls are more fun in bed? Yeah, same with crazy guys. 😉
Adreana says
Well, “nice guys” aren’t always nice, Evan. If you look at the news, many of the crazy mass shooters were described as nice guys. The word nice has been tainted so much that we need to come up with a new one.
I disagree that women aren’t drawn to nice guys, it’s just that they’re drawn to REAL nice guys that have additional qualities that make them attractive. Look at it this way, would a man want a woman just because she is nice? I don’t think so. Heck, I can’t even even be friends with people who are just nice- I need to enjoy their company and have a blast with them.
Ben says
Then again with the kind of women we have out there these days is the real good reason why many of us good men are still single today which certainly explains it.
Al says
Yep. With that attitude, it’s isn’t any wonder at all why you’re still single mate. SMH
bobby says
Why do you think, parents lock their daughters in their rooms for. Take like guys like Colin Farrell, he was the guy, girls want to bang. He was a chain smoker, drinks a lot and is good looking. He also treats women badily, he usually gets laid a lot of times with a lot of hot girls. Trust me, on tv our dreams girls nerds keep chasing always put us in the friend zone or reject us. In the real world, always be prepared. If you are a fat guy or a nerd or a nice guy, when you see a pretty girl. Don’t look at her or talk to her. Don’t even ask them out and or say anything. They can smell desperation all over you. That is talk, you will be rejected. Mostly you can be friends, they will put you in the friend zone. That is how the world works. So only nerds should date ugly girls, they say yes to anybody.
bobby says
One perk about being a nerd, slacker or a geek. Is I can be myself. I can wear my own clothes, I can say anything I want and I can be childish, funny and myself. I can eat anything I want, without a hot girl tell me what I have to eat. We have it easy, no matters how many times were left out or get beat up or laughed at. We have the easy life and we can be ourselves. Brooding, good looking guys may be mysterious and a bad boy type may get the girls we can’t date. But they have a lot of expectations, they don’t want to live with. Mostly if they are dating you or this image they fantasize about.
Adreana says
Women like bad boys and men like crazy women. I have a few “nice guy” friends who have horror stories of psychotic, drama-filled women…they didn’t wake up and decide to pursue nice girls till after they’ve gotten older and got tired of it all. And how many women started giving “nice guys” a chance till AFTER they’ve been dumped by a bad boy?
I know it sounds harsh, but nice men and women are very rarely the first choice ( even if they are good-looking). If there are other attractive people who are more wild and unpredictable, you can bet they will be perceived as more desirable than the hot “safe” ones.
The lesson is….no matter how nice you ( think) you are, you need to have a bit of a crazy, fun side to you! 🙂 Only then will you beat the bad boys/girls at their own game 😉
Lisa says
Sometimes I think you have to date your fantasy (in my case several times) and get hurt before you realize that the fantasy is not the reality and go for a nice guy. Many people particuarly women are drawn to that crazy love with conflict and drama and people longing for each other. I blame Hallmark movies for this. So we seek that out. A nice guy is “boring” to us. He is not a challenge there is no angst, he is just like here I am I love you. Another issue is that women that have dated these types of men for a long time come to think that this is what love is and how it should feel. So when they meet a nice guy and there is no angst no drama they say well there is no chemistry here. But they have mistaken angst for chemistry it is not, so they have warped views. I have a good friend who is 38. She has never been in a serious relationship. When I asked her who she is looking for she tells me Edward from Twilight. I said to her, he is a child, her response to me was well he is supposed to look young in the movies. I said no in real life the actor is too young for you you are almost 40 years old! This same friend dismisses every single guy she goes out with becasue well he does not look like Edward!
B says
I personally like the fact that I get the “bad boy” who doesn’t care about anything, to care about me. I actually have this issue in real life. I’m in love w someone who I decided to step away from because he was a “bad boy” and I wanted something more stable. Someone I knew would be there. Someone not so selfish. Etc.
Jessica says
Hi Evan!
Sometimes, it’s all about sex for women too. Maybe these “bad boys” have higher testosterone levels and subconsciously make us think they would be better at impregnanting us and pass on stronger genes… I know that sounds crazy because why would we want to reproduce with a guy who is going to be a bad husband and not even stick around for child rearing? But I suspect it all goes back to our evolution and the chimpanzee social structure, where families were raised in groups and there was more help from the “community” in raising children. Just my two cents! Love your stuff Evan, my husband and I agree with most everything you say. And I your book “why he disappeared” really helped me in my single days.
SEH says
I would like to start off my statement with the “nice guy” label was given to me by women the compliment they always bestowed upon me while they were rejecting me. Many of the nice guys I know got the same rejection line over and over (you are a nice guy but…) so we start to believe we are nice. It was never a self proclaimed title that entitled me to anything. I also accept it is my own responsibility to be what a woman would desire, complaining about other men is a waste of time.
The anger nice guys feel is we tend to be a woman’s back up plan after she has conveniently “outgrown” her bad boy phase or she has accumulated unpleasant baggage directly related to her bad boy phase. Women seem to feel entitled to “nice guys” only after they are damaged mentally, physically and financially by the men they chose. It appears to us you are offering your problems in exchange for intimacy and a relationship. Nice guys pay for their faults with the constant initial rejection we receive then we have to pay a double price for the damage you have accumulated. If we complain or call it like we see it then suddenly we are no longer “nice”.
It has been my experience at this point women will go into damage control mode. They will lie about their pasts and come up with all kinds of witty one liners to make their “nice guy” feel special….
#1 I saved the best for last.
#2 What I had with them was sex but when I am with you its love. ( So you had great sex that makes our love making pale in comparison)
#3 I had to be with them to appreciate you. ( No you chose to spend your time with them, they were for fun and I get the privilege of working and sacrificing for you.)
#4 The time I spent with them was horrible (How long did it take you to figure that out? A week or did it take decades?)
#5 You are getting the best of me. ( If I was number 1,2,3 or even 4 I could believe that but not when I am number 23)
#6 I was finding myself (What exactly does that mean?)
#7 Its complicated (No its not! If you wanted to be with me or a guy like me you would have.)
#8 I want to put my past behind me you are my future. ( You mean you don’t want to be held accountable for your actions and live your life without consequences)
# 9 No one understands me like you do (I believe you told more than one man that line).
#10 I had to kiss a lot of frogs to find you my prince ( Princess you banged the Black Knight, Evil Wizard, Court Jester, Rogue Bandit, Pirate and the Ogre before you would even consider me as an option)
Ladies its damned hard to buy your witty one liners when they have never been supported by your actions. It becomes impossible to hear your words if you are in dire straits. Now I expect to be attacked for what I have said so please spare me any fault finding or shaming attacks. I am not misogynist nor do I need therapy. However you might be able to inflict emotional pain but then it would just prove what I have known most of my life, your contempt for me is absolute! Spare me your mock concern it was never supported by action.
Katie says
The pearl clutching here…
Tell me why a woman would want a guy with that negative, judgemental and shaming attitude, please? You probably have a lot of great qualities, but you’ve done a masterful job of growing a moldy layer self-righteous, emotionally deflective judgyness over it all.
Clean that off and try the dating scene again.
SEH says
“Tell me why a woman would want a guy with that negative, judgemental and shaming attitude, please?”-Katie
They reject me long before they ever see that side of me. If I like the woman she will never see that side of me.
“You probably have a lot of great qualities”-Katie
They always get me friend zoned. Whatever qualities I have don’t make up for my deficiencies.
“you’ve done a masterful job of growing a moldy layer self-righteous, emotionally deflective judgyness over it all.”- Katie
And when a woman judges a man she is wise, smart and divinely inspired?
“Clean that off and try the dating scene again.”- Katie
I would but with each passing year there are less and less desirable options and I refuse to settle.
Reply
Buck25 says
Katie, Where do I start sorting out this mess? First of all SEH is mostly wrong in his assumptions about women. However, you have a couple of blind spots yourself, both in not understanding part of the “why” of his anger, AND the role women actually have played into the misconceptions that held him (and many others) back from being “all they could be”.
First of all I’d guess he’s in the 30-40 age group, and if so partly a product of the times, along with his younger counterparts. Feminism did some good things (won’t argue that) but it also produced some unavoidable collateral damage, among them, more feminization of the educational system; if I’d been born 25 years later, they would have drugged me into submission, like so many others have been. A lot of healthy male behavior has been pathologized by a system that’s become increasingly aggression phobic, and rewards female type compliance over somewhat rowdy and inconvenient behavior that was not liked, but at least tolerated, in my day. Lawyers, administrators, and female teachers love this; more convenient to them, in this wussified society we have now. The second, and this is an entirely female created phenomenon, is that relic of the eighties and early nineties, known as the “sensitive new age man” . You ladies made those pathetic creatures, when some of you decided you’d like something with male plumbing and female emotions. The thoroughly emasculated result (and what a mess it was!) is with us yet, because some of these unfortunate lapdogs (so feminine that I swear some of them could menstruate on command ) somehow managed to reproduce, and even “Parent” (if you could call it that). Some of their unfortunate male progeny are the socially awkward unassertive 20somethings who can’t get a date today. In fairness there’s a subset of feminist women who own this “girly man”abomination more than a few examples of whom you ladies have kicked in the teeth for the crime of being the logical result of some of your own less-than-well-thought-out desires. You might at least show a little empathy on that account.
One more thing. Many of you seem unable to make a distinction between “sexually attractive male behavior”, and “desirable Husband/boyfriend behavior”. You don’t make it at all clear which you are talking about, and that confuses us men (frankly I get the impression it also confuses some of you, to the point that you don’t know what the hell you want from us, or when you want it). Sometimes you’re so nuanced you’re entirely too vague for our concrete minds. Where it applies, you ladies own that one too. Try looking at it from our point of view, you know, the one where the primary desideratum is sex, and relationship a distinct afterthought. As young guys, when we ask “what do you want”, we mean”what does it take to get you into bed,” NOT “what does it take to get a relationship with you”. The latter is a separate question for LATER…does that help clarify the issue? Yes, we know your agenda is different, but ours isn’t, so try to work with us on that. Both the sex and the eventual relationship will be better…really.
P.S. While a lot of it is overdone, from the perspective of males who were doing without either sex or a relationship, for years, (I wasn’t, so this isn’t personal grievance), while you were having your fun with self discovery and sorting out the difference for yourselves between sexual attraction and boyfriend material, there is a grain of truth in what he says. By no means are women entirely to blame, but you’re not entirely absolved of any and all responsibility for this mess either. What the guys are responsible for is not thinking far enough to realize that PUA, while somewhat effective (and thus empowering for them) has its limitations (it’s an act, and hard to sustain). The failure lies in not seeing what the bad boy actually is, and how easy it is for a really intelligent man to not just imitate him (along with his vices) but to outdo him entirely. One thing the typical bad boy is NOT, is an alpha male, or even anything close to one. He is typically immature, undisciplined and totally irresponsible, lacking in ethical development, more an instigator than a real leader, and typically cracks under real adversity. At his lowest level, he’s a borderline thug, and his default response to being confronted, or worse, outdone, is physical violence, which frequently makes him a potential abuser; a lot of his apparent hyperconfidence is that of a bully, who’s never been called on it (think the rougher biker type, as an example of this lower type.) In short, bottom line, he’s little more than an attractive mutt, that superficially looks like a wolf… until a real wolf is around. The only reason some women put up with him is that not enough other men give them a better alternative, which is actually pretty easy to do, with some attitude, and a little modest work. If that ever happened in quantity, most of the real jerk type bad boys would go the way of the dinosaurs.
Katie says
Buck,
That’s a lot of diatribe for my 6 lines.
Your assertion that men are “feminized” today compared to the good ole days is falling on deaf ears here. I feel that men have the freedom today to be acknowledged and appreciated on account of traits OTHER than the stereotypical alpha male. You ridicule the “sensitive” guy, well you’re barking up the wrong tree buddy. I’m dating a sensitive guy and he’s the most confidently masculine man than I’ve ever had and I love him for being intuitive, thoughtful and sensitive.
I assume you’re from the US like me, and I’ll just say that we are NOT that great as far a gender equality. Sweden for example far exceeds us: 400 days paid parental leave that MUST be divided between the man and woman, vastly different dating culture where going dutch is expected, women and men nearly equally represented in politics, alimony in the case of a divorce is nonexistent, etc.
I acknowledge a little bias, due to my dude being Swedish, but basically your assumption that sensitive men are weak or whatever because they don’t fit your old school mental model of the cool, withdrawn alpha male is absurd and dated. Dated as in old btw.
Karl R says
Buck25,
I think you’re way off the mark.
Women aren’t some monolithic group who all think or act the same way. They haven’t systematically molded a generation or two into … whatever you’re assuming SEH is like.
It’s also not unreasonable to assume that some well-meaning female friends and relatives have fed men lousy dating advice. (My mother’s advice would only have worked if the entire world was comprised of people like Ward and June Cleaver.) But as far as I can tell, the major points you’re trying to make are entirely wrong.
Blaming women is pointless. Especially if you’re going to try to string “cause and effect” together in such a random and haphazard way.
Your rant sounds no more plausible than any rant by an angry woman who blames all of women’s dating problems on men. If you actually have a valid point, try communicating it in an entirely different way.
ScottH says
Buck- I’d love to hear your story about meeting your new GF.
Buck25 says
Katie and Karl,
Lots of knee-jerk reaction to my post , I see. I’m not surprised. Some of what I say IS polarizing. It is meant to be. My objective here, as usual, is to provoke thought, not toe the conventional line. This is, or should be, a discussion, not an echo chamber. This was no diatribe against women, or any “blaming” of women in general, or even feminism in general, for all of men’s dating/mating woes.That said, I would stand on the argument that the rise of feminism (while in general a good thing ) has also done the sort of (mostly unintended) collateral damage one can expect in any other social revolution, or major cultural shift. I see no reason why anyone but a dedicated ideologue would have a problem admitting this; if there’s ever been a major human endeavor without flaws I haven’t seen one yet, and feminism is no exception. I’m not suggesting that collateral damage was done with malice aforethought, but it was done nonetheless, and the primary effect was at the margins. That is to say, in this case, the worst effects were on those men who were already somewhat socially marginalized. The shy and socially awkward were further marginalized; the stronger and more adaptable (socially speaking) were not, in this instance. That’s not blaming women, it’s simply acknowledging that the price of some of their gains, has been paid for (and as much by women as men, by the way) at the expense of having fewer really good men to choose from than might otherwise be the case. Don’t conflate “blame” with some modest “accountability”; there’s a huge difference. Also to this point, I’ve only addressed one side of this issue, and if you had waited for the next part, you’d have known that, having asked for a little empathy from women for these men (including the ones complaining the loudest here), I’m about to put the onus for the great bulk of their difficulties squarely where it belongs: on THEM, and to some extent on us men in general (because some of the things many of us have accepted as attempts to redress the problem have gone too far, and in less than ideal directions, and we’re getting into”two wrongs don’t make right territory” at times.
And Katie, don’t confuse what I’m saying about “sensitive new age men” as an affront to masculinity (they are) as saying that a man cannot have strong alpha tendencies, and also be kind, compassionate, and even empathetic. A man can be all that, and ideally I would suggest he strive to be. What he shouldn’t be, is one who does it as a wuss, a lapdog, and a weakling who snivels and begs like a cowering whipped puppy, tail tucked between his legs to cover his missing a sack, for any woman’s approval. There’s nothing in that, for any woman (or man, for that matter) to admire and respect. I don’t really like the term “mangina”, in part because it’s been abused, overused and misused, in part because frankly, it insults the many women who actually have more “balls” (figuratively, in the sense of inner strength, confidence and courage) than some of these men. These “girly guys” are not “weak because they’re sensitive”, they’re weak because the supposed “sensitivity” is mostly a fraud; the act of a supplicant and a sycophant, not a man of confidence and conviction and strength. See the difference? Your guy is the latter; the “girly men” I speak of are the former.
Before I get into offering up what I think is a modest solution to some of these issue, I want to make one personal comment to the two of you (and anyone else here). Yes, I’m aware you think my attitude is absurd, dated and old. To you it may be. Guess what? You know what has me smiling, improved my dating life exponentially, and has me right now in a relationship with a woman you’d never dream I could get? The day when, after my last dust-up here, I finally got totally fed up, said “Screw it!” and went right back to being who I used to be, before I listened to too much “advice” about what women want! You don’t like me? Ok, I’m totally fine with that; it’s not like I need your approval. You think I’m a knuckle-dragging dinosaur? Fine by me, but someone else might think otherwise (and some women do). If the women I want to attract, are attracted to and respect me, (and these days, a lot more of them do), why should I care what anyone else thinks? That doesn’t mean being cruel or unkind, or tearing any woman down either. Turns out, my attitude repels most of the unwanted female attention I was getting (fine with me!) and attracts more of those I actually like myself. Funny thing too; now, I can actually get away with showing some compassion and empathy, albeit selectively, without anyone labeling me as one of those proverbial “nice guys”. Seems to work much better when it’s a surprise that old hard-nosed Buck actually does have a heart.
Buck25 says
Hey Scott, Lot of changes since we talked last fall. You’ll get some of the idea from my post above. Met and dated a number of woman since then. The latest, though, would never have happened, except for the short history of a relationship that failed (to paraphrase a title from a Mark Twain story) immediately before. Some mutual friends had introduced me to a really pretty woman, and this had blossomed into a real whirlwind romance, complete with the “I’m in love with you!” and “Let’s move in together!” talk. Anything that fast is bound to be highly volatile; I knew she had some issues, and was still being a bit cautious…and a good thing too, because the day after Thanksgiving, she imploded, emotionally, and that, as they say, was that. Little did I know that right before, she’d been looking for some temporary housekeeping help for me and had given my number to a friend of hers, who gave it to one of her girlfriends…and a week later, I got a phone call; she introduced herself, told me how she got the number, and said she would be interested in the housekeeping job temporarily, to make extra money for Christmas. I figured I’d at least let her look at the job and see if I thought she’d be ok. She really didn’t sound like much over the phone, but she gave me some references, which checked out, so… I don’t know what I was expecting, but the woman who showed up turned out to be cute as a button, with a personality to match, and a little ball of energy who looked around the house, and seemed to know exactly what needed to be done, so I hired her temporarily. Of course, the first couple of times I had to show her where all the supplies were, and so on, so we had to talk a lot while she worked, and well, we just clicked, to the surprise of both of us. The next thing you know, we found ourselves missing each other, and wanting to spend more time together, talking on the phone, going to dinner together, etc. We’re taking it real slow, just enjoying each other’s company; there doesn’t seem to be any rush, for either of us. We’re at the “I love you, but I’m not sure I’m ready to be in love yet” stage; for now, what we are is something we’re both content with, (and for the more inquiring minds reading this, yes, we’re exclusive, but no, we’re aren’t having sex, and in no particular hurry to, either). Definitely different, but we’ve both agreed to just let it be, and see where it takes us. Que Sera, Sera.
ScottH says
Hey Buck- I’m happy for you. Your story goes to show that you never know when it’s going to happen which is why we need to keep looking for that needle in the haystack of love. Very similar to Evan’s recent email.
Scott
Jeremy says
SEH, I hear your complaints and feel the pain behind them. I sincerely hope you have not gone to the manosphere for validation on these issues. I am ashamed to say that I spent some time there because I thought it was the only place where people talked about issues like this….but although there are kernels of truth there, there is also so much hate and mis-information that men leave there more damaged than they entered. I see the same kernels of truth mixed with mis-information in your comment.
The kernel of truth in your comment (IMHO) is that women often give men the wrong idea of what they find attractive, and this can lead men (like yourself) to prioritize the wrong things. When we hear women lamenting about why they can’t find a nice guy, we think that we can attract them by being nice. What we don’t hear is what the women are not saying – because they don’t think they have to say – that they are looking for a man whom they find arousing to ALSO be nice, thereby making him marriage material instead of just sex material.
Realize that there are certain qualities that women find arousing and other qualities that women find comforting. They look for arousal qualities in men they have short-term sex with, and a mixture of arousal and comfort qualities in men they want to marry. But (and hear me here, SEH), they only prize comfort qualities in men whom they already find attractive for other reasons. If they don’t already find the guy somewhat attractive, they won’t care if he brings them flowers (and may actually get creeped out by his doing so).
The women who told you that you were nice as they rejected you were not attracted to you – either your appearance or behavior turned them off. If they had been attracted to you, your niceness would not have affected your attractiveness for short-term sex (if that is what you wanted), and would have made you more attractive for relationships. In other words, your niceness is not what is hurting you.
Bottom line – learn what women find attractive, and try to improve yourself in those ways. The rejections you suffered had NOTHING to do with your being nice. They had to do with other lacks that you had. Although it is psychologically easier to blame our failings on others (ie. women), ultimately self-improvement will yield better results in the long-term.
Marika says
Beautiful, Jeremy, thanks for sharing.
I’m glad you outlined that so clearly. I’ve certainly been guilty of being unclear what I want with men, saying one thing then doing another (in hindsight). I think sometimes members of the opposite sex (both men & women) demonise the other gender, thinking they are bad and nasty and controlling, but I think in reality most people are just unsure & confused. We think we want something (like I was drawn to a more controlling man after being with a complete pushover), but when we get it, it’s not that great. So then we flip. The grass is always greener, ya know.
But most of us aren’t doing this to hurt others, it’s more just our unconscious need to be loved & accepted & desired that drives this. Not to say we all don’t need to improve in this area, but understanding and patience is what’s required, not hatred, name calling & blasting other people in the comments section of blogs designed to promote understanding & tolerance…
I think Evan is on the money, you can’t go wrong being a ‘nice guy with balls’. But then again, my friend is very happily married to a nice guy with no balls and my sister has a very controlling husband and is fine with that. The best way to attract women is to be kind & chivalrous but also decisive & to have boundaries (and your own life), but if that’s not you, and you’re more passive, you’ll still find women who will love and accept you.
Anger, on the other hand, may make you feel temporarily powerful, but in the long run it’s a block both to self-love and healthy relationships.
Henriette says
Wow, @Jeremy. *applause* What a thoughtful, articulate post! I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find “arousing.” I’d love to read a list of what you consider those traits and qualities to be, and see if the female posters here agree.
I, for one, have never (no, even when I was at my youngest and hottest) been attracted to bad boys and ~ occasionally ~ a fine character could spark attraction that didn’t initially exist. I know, however, that many (most?) women are more binary than I; if they don’t find a guy sexy from the get-go, they never, ever will. So, I suspect that women like me also confuse matters for some men, because they believe that being nice will make a woman attracted to them, whereas in fact it MIGHT only make SOME women attracted to them.
GoWiththeFlow says
Hey Henriette,
“I, for one, have never (no, even when I was at my youngest and hottest) been attracted to bad boys. . .”
Whenever I read a comment like SEH’s (that Jeremy answered beautifully) from a guy who recently dove down the rabbit hole of the manosphere, I’m always struck by how the implication is that dating, especially when young, is all puppies and rainbows for women. That young women are ALL dating “bad boys” while maliciously rejecting nice guys.
Two truths:
1) Many young women’s early experience of dating is one of mostly being ignored, and even friend-zoned, by boys who are busy pining away for or pursing the 9s and 10s.
2) Many if not a majority of woman never wind up involved with a bad boy. Bad boys are what, 5, 10, 15% of the male population? Because of point number 1, and just random chance, the closest a girl may get to a relationship with a bad boy is daydreaming about a TV character or movie actor, or possibly an unobtainable bad boy on campus. And then of course, there are young women who have good heads on their shoulders who avoid bad boys from the get go.
Something for people to keep in mind.
Jeremy says
Thanks Henriette and Marika. There’s a really good book on the subject called “Come as you are”, by Emily Nagarski, who is a PhD in sex research/education. She discusses female sexuality and how women (and men) have sexual “On” switches and “Off” switches, and how in order for desire to be perceived on a conscious level, the On switches need to be on and the Off switches need to be off.
The problem is that some women have sensitive On switches that turn on easily, while others have ones that are difficult to turn on. Some women have Off switches that easily turn off, while others have ones that are more resistant. On switches get turned on by arousing qualities, while Off switches get turned off by comfort qualities.
I suspect that is why some women perceive of “niceness” as being a sexual turn-on…if their Off switches are difficult to deactivate, they will never be able to experience desire without comfort first. It isn’t that the “niceness” is a turn-on, but rather that without the niceness the turn-ons can’t be perceived because the proverbial “brakes” are on. These are, I think, the women who have never been attracted to bad boys and who find themselves more attracted to men over time as they show good character (ie. learn to turn off the Off switches so as to allow the On switches an opportunity to work).
Other women, though, have the opposite problem – their On switches are difficult to activate, while their Off switches aren’t a problem. They simply aren’t attracted to most men, and crave dopamine (drama, chemistry, etc) to feel aroused. It isn’t that there is a monolithic thing that gives most women dopamine; rather it is whatever gives that particular woman dopamine that turns her on. These women generally won’t care a fig for comfort qualities, and will chase chemistry, not realizing that it is ephemeral.
Sorry for the long, esoteric post but I think the topic is relevant. The manosphere is full of the message that men need to “up the alpha” – in other words, focus on things that activate most women’s On switches. And frankly, that isn’t bad advice – hit the gym, read a book, get a job, gain confidence. But if done without some consideration for comfort qualities, long-term relationships become impossible when life will, inevitably, activate some Off switch and the guy will find himself without the skill-set to deactivate it.
Tom10 says
@ Henriette #75.2.2
“I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find “arousing.” I’d love to read a list of what you consider those traits and qualities to be, and see if the female posters here agree”
I know you addressed your comment to Jeremy but do you mind if I take a stab at what qualities guys can work on improving which women find “arousing”? (Therefore, I will omit all the arousing qualities which guys can’t improve, such as their height and intelligence).
The basics
– Simply being clean and groomed is a start!
– Wearing smart clothes that fit and are reasonably stylish.
– Being in reasonable shape. My experience has been that most women are quite accommodating and aren’t expecting chiseled hunks, however, some modicum of fitness/keeping in shape is important.
– Decent hair-cut. Although guys are relatively limited in what they can do in some circumstances (such as baldness), simply having a decent hair-cut seems remarkably beyond the reaches of so many men!
– Teeth. Most people find a nice white set of straight teeth attractive. And this is attainable for most people. I always wonder why people past a certain age can’t seem to achieve this?
Ambition
Women are aroused by guys with drive, who know what they want from this world and then go about achieving their goals. Laziness and moaning are huge turn-offs to women.
Education
Now I think attaining education credentials simply for the sake of it — as opposed to assist in his career – is slightly absurd, however, I think the majority of women with degrees are more comfortable (thus more aroused?) dating a guy with a degree. Therefore, a guy would improve his overall desirability to women by obtaining some education credentials.
Character
Empathy and kindness. This is what confuses guys like SEH; they observe women sleep with the guys who display no kindness and get confused. However, what they fail to realize is that those women are attracted to those guys in spite of his character, not because of it. Therefore, being kind is still an overall plus.
So Henriette, how did I do? 😉
Shaukat says
I agree whole-heartedly that men should work on improving those qualities that most women find ‘arousing.’
Unfortunately, when it comes to this topic most of the mainstream self-improvement advice just exacerbates the problem, confuses frustrated men, and drives them further into the MRA rabbit hole where they end up stewing in their own misguided toxic beliefs about women. Such advice, which is even voiced at times by some here, is essentially: “Be happy and positive! Then you’ll find the one!”
I’ve known plenty of happy and otherwise content and positive guys who were still involuntarily abstinent. I remember a couple years back Salon did a story on a 33 year old male virgin who was a stand up comic in New York. He was funny, happy, not at all resentful, and yet had resigned himself to a sexless life. Clearly, the lack of good game or a sense of humor were not his problem. I’m not trying to be mean, but you could identify his main problem from his photo.
Women are really just the same as men in this area, driven primarily by ‘chemistry’ and physical attraction. A man having systemic problems should thus focus primarily on the basics outlined by Tom, but I’d be more specific:
Getting your body fat down to between 8-12% while maintaining a healthy overall weight will alone do wonders. Facial features, especially the jaw line, will become far more defined, muscles will appear more defined and even larger, and you won’t have a gut. There will still be some genetic limits (skull size, bone structure) but since most of the population is obese or ‘skinny fat,’ such changes will alone lead to massive improvements in the dating sphere. Forget about education, ambition, etc. Icing on the cake for most women, unless you’re talking marriage, but a man has to pass the looks threshold first.
GoWiththeFlow says
Shaukat & Tom,
I agree with what you suggest and want to emphasize that a man doesn’t need to get hair plugs or plastic surgery. Some basic preventive maintenance or a small to moderate amount of effort is usually all that’s required.
Two big things: Dental hygiene and skincare. Bad breath, rotting or missing teeth, and a face full of blackheads are lady boner killers. Brush your teeth and don’t skip yearly dental exams. Chewing tobacco will kill your teeth faster than anything out there, so commit to kicking the habit if you do. (And tobacco juice spitting is is gross anyway.) OTC whitening strips work pretty well, so give them a try if you have stained teeth. Wash your face twice a day and use an exfoliating moisturizer and sunscreen. You can buy these inexpensively at any drug store.
After that, clean clothes that fit well, and a good haircut will make a good impression. Women have varying opinions on beards and facial hair, so do what feels right for you and what people tell you looks good on you. Just keep it clean and groomed, and avoid the Duck Dynasty look.
As far as items like ambition and education, you certainly don’t need to be something you’re not, so don’t start a Ph.D program if you’re really not into it just to get the degree. But a man with a passion for something and goals in life is very sexy. Whether it’s to have your own business, run a 5k, or successfully coach kids on how to play soccer, it makes you interesting and gives us something we can learn about you, and maybe we can learn from you as well.
Emily, the original says
Jeremy,
The manosphere is full of the message that men need to “up the alpha” — in other words, focus on things that activate most women’s On switches. And frankly, that isn’t bad advice — hit the gym, read a book, get a job, gain confidence
Hitting the gym can help, but it’s obviously not all about a man’s physical appearance. If you’ve been on Evan’s site for any time at all, you’ve probably read that he points out that men want from women what they can’t get from their friends: warmth, compassion, nurturing. It’s the same for women. Women want to get from men what they can’t get from their friends: strength, decisiveness, a sense they are being protected. By this definition, “nice” guys have too many feminine qualities — kindness, sensitivity, a willingness to please. Having a more masculine edge will, as you wrote, active a woman’s “on” switch so that she can then discover a man is kind and sensitive (to a point), but also manly enough to turn her on.
Chance says
Hi Shaukat, no doubt looking better will always help, but I would direct you to Emily’s comment above because I believe she gets to the heart of the matter, and she’s doing young guys a favor that most 20s/30s women would never do because they want the man to just get it (i.e., if he needs masculinity to be explained to him, then he’s not the guy for them). My experience has been that the security cues that a man signals – physically, mentally, and emotionally – in how he carries himself are what attract women. Mind you, I’m not proclaiming to know what attracts women, but rather I’m simply explaining what has been my experience as it relates to what have observed in women. I can go through a list of observable traits or manifestations of this positively masculine mindset if anyone cares to hear, which will undoubtedly stir the pot (very uncharacteristic of me). However, here is one manifestation that you will find to be outrageous:
I have discovered that when I’ve ripped a hearty fart within the presence of a woman that I just met (not even talking about within a dating context here), sans an ounce of shame or embarrassment, that they eventually became very attracted to me. This utterly confounded me as a teenager, but I’ve come to believe that this serves as some sort of display of unconditional confidence (again, distinct security cue). I have no doubt that most (all?) the women reading this will say that this is the most ridiculous and idiotic thing they’ve ever heard, but they cannot argue with my personal experience.
Now, a few caveats: first, while this needs to be within earshot, never do it so close to a woman that she can smell it as this will demonstrate that, you know, you aren’t a decent human being and all. Second, you must express absolutely no shame or embarrassment, or the deal is off. Finally, this only needs to be done once. Obviously, a woman doesn’t want to be around a guy who farts all of the time.
CJ says
OMG is chance even a real person, lol??? He locks his condom in a safe as if his disgusting jiz is gold and now he’s saying that women loves it when he rips a fart right in front of them…. This guy is the living end – how does he get through ANY barriers of women. Is he dating 12 year olds, drug addicts, homeless people? WTF do any women see in this guy?? I hope he is as up front in person to women as he is here so they can make a much better assessment of the degree of his mental impairment and psychological weirdness. My feeling is that he hides most of these thoughts from real people or he wouldn’t have any friends at all, let alone women who are unaware he’s locking his disgusting jiz up minutes after he’s used her…. Jesus, this is scary. Hopefully he can’t hide his real self IRL but my experience tells me that he does very well and that it reinforces his wacky crap thoughts… Crazy town…..Chance…..
Emily, the original says
Chance,
My experience has been that the security cues that a man signals — physically, mentally, and emotionally — in how he carries himself are what attract women.
Yes, security is important … but to a point. Jeremy’s two posts above explain it well. If all a man does is activate a woman’s security/comfort needs, he will put her into a sexual coma. Think of what she needs as two types of fire — one is utilitarian and used for cooking and heating (like a stove). That’s comfort. The other is the house on fire, like desire. If a man wants a relationship, he needs to fill both of these needs to some degree, depending on the woman in question. If he just wants sex, don’t worry about the security. Too much security, though, will get a man freindzoned.
Chance says
Emily, I agree with you. I think semantics might be getting in the way as I’m thinking of security in a broader scope than just what someone might think of in the context of a secure, dependable provider. I think muscularity, wit, and masculine independence (commonly seen as “good gene” traits the are beneficial for sexual encounters) actually send off security cues as well. Indeed, I believe a man can send signals that inspire feelings that are the opposite of comfort, but still are security cues.
GoWiththeFlow says
Emily,
“If he just wants sex, don’t worry about the security.”
Completely disagree. For many women to have sex with a man, they need to know that they can trust him when they are very vulnerable–naked and having sex with him. They need the security of knowing he won’t disappear the next day and isn’t blabbing her secrets to his friends, coworkers, and anyone who will listen.
Security is so much more than a feeling that a man can/would physically protect you. It’s also knowing you are emotionally safe with him.
Emily, the original says
GoWiththeFlow,
Completely disagree. For many women to have sex with a man, they need to know that they can trust him when they are very vulnerable—naked and having sex with him. They need the security of knowing he won’t disappear the next day and isn’t blabbing her secrets to his friends, coworkers, and anyone who will listen.
I am quoting Jeremy’s post, which summed it up brilliantly.
Realize that there are certain qualities that women find arousing and other qualities that women find comforting. They look for arousal qualities in men they have short-term sex with, and a mixture of arousal and comfort qualities in men they want to marry.
A man should lead with arousal qualities if he wants casual sex and a mixture of comfort/arousal if he wants a relationship. That doesn’t mean he negates all comfort qualities completely, but I’d be willing to bet the arousal qualities are more important for a woman during, for example, a one-nighter, where she might not care what happens the next day or if he blabs to his friends.
jeremy says
@GWTF and Emily, I don’t mean to intrude on your discussion, but I think you are both correct but talking about different women. I mentioned above the finding that some women have Off switches that are difficult to deactivate (“sticky brakes”) and need lots of comfort qualities before they allow themselves to be turned on. Other women have ON switches that are difficult to activate (“sticky accelerators”) – they aren’t worried about comfort, but wish they could find a guy who has what it takes to get their engine running (so to speak).
I used to think that men needed to strategize about how to turn a woman on – should he lead with comfort or arousal? But I’ve come to realize that if a man’s personality is one of comfort (“Beta”, though I hate that term because it implies inferiority), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it. If his personality is arousal (“alpha”), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it. Trying to be something you’re not gets old after a while. I discovered that years ago while dating a girl who loved novelty, night-clubs, and constant arousal stimulation. Exhausting for an introverted guy like me 🙂
Emily, the original says
Jeremy,
I used to think that men needed to strategize about how to turn a woman on — should he lead with comfort or arousal? But I’ve come to realize that if a man’s personality is one of comfort (“Beta”, though I hate that term because it implies inferiority), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it. If his personality is arousal (“alpha”), he should lead with that and find a girl who likes it. Trying to be something you’re not gets old after a while.
Very true: find the women who dig you, but since the topic of this post was “women don’t dream of dating nice guys,” some of the points you made may help the men who are always getting friendzoned.
And this myth about “bad boys” having some kind of erotic draw for women is overblown. How many of us really know any true bad boys? The guy who lives by his own rules and does what he wants. I know a lot of guys who go to work on time and pay their bills. Hey, you gotta eat! 🙂
GoWiththeFlow says
Jeremy & Emily,
My next book will be the one you mentioned “Come As You Are” since I think people respond to a variety of triggers and stimuli in varying ways.
Evan has a popular post about a LW who has fund very few men attractive. Maybe one guy a year or so. I think that is really sad. I would say that the majority of men I meat have something attractive about them; a nice smile, engaging eyes, a sexy voice, broad shoulders, etc. I find that that is like a seed from which an all encompassing attraction can grow. And besides, it’s just fun to be able to enjoy the beauty around you 😉
I think I need a threshold level of attraction, that seed that can grow, and a lot of men can cross that bar. Fewer men get past the next level that includes personality, disposition, and character. A thing I have experienced quite a few times is that I find a man physically attractive and then he starts talking and I’m over it.
Emily, the original says
GoWiththeFlow,
I would say that the majority of men I meet have something attractive about them; a nice smile, engaging eyes, a sexy voice, broad shoulders, etc.
A majority? Hmmm … I would say that once I have a conversation with most men (or people, for that matter), I can usually find something in them that is interesting or appealing. I can find a man’s personality engaging. I may even think he’s kind of cute, but that doesn’t mean I want to go to bed with him.
A thing I have experienced quite a few times is that I find a man physically attractive and then he starts talking and I’m over it.
Agreed. If he’s a moron, the attraction dies a quick death.
SEH says
“SEH, I hear your complaints and feel the pain behind them. I sincerely hope you have not gone to the manosphere for validation on these issues. “- Jeremy
It is unfortunate that I actually paid it a visit along with sites like Heartiste and the Rational Male. The hate can be easily dismissed. What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again. The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.
I would like to believe there is still a chance to find happiness and love. I would like to believe not all women are the same but the lessons of Heartiste and The Rational Male get reinforced over and over again by women’s choices and behavior. I learned to watch what women choose versus what they say.
I have reached a point where I am MGTOW not out of a hate induced choice. It is because the older I get the less I care. Friday night will roll around again and I will stay home because its not worth my time to look for the needle in the hay stack. I can think of a dozen other things I would rather do than subject myself to the dating game and the whimsical nature and snap judgements of women.
I cannot deny that I would love to have a woman to share my life with but I refuse to settle for what it appears women are willing to give me…
jeremy says
@SEH, that is what I meant when I wrote that men leave the manosphere more damaged than they arrived. You think you are seeing “cold hard truth,” but in fact you are only seeing part of the picture and ignoring the other pieces. The way out of your dark hole involves understanding human psychology – in particular, “confirmation bias.”
Confirmation bias is the notion that once we believe something (or fear it to be true), we begin to filter out facts and observations that confirm our beliefs/fears, ignoring other facts/observations that don’t confirm our fears.
Why do so many men from the manosphere migrate to Evan’s blog and spew their hate here? Because in the multitude of female comments posted here, their confirmation bias easily identifies elements of hypergamy and entitlement that the manosphere discusses. When these men observe these comments, it confirms their bias and they lash out in despair and disappointment. “I never thought it could be true, but here it is for all to see!”
Here’s the problem, SEH. In the multitude of female comments here there is also plenty of information that contradicts manospherian dogma. Women who believe in love. Women who actually care to know what men want and have some notion of reciprocation – they’ve just been misguided, thinking men want the same things they do. Women who want a family life with a man, and have no intention of divorcing for frivolous reasons. Yes, hypergamy and entitlement exist, but values and dedication also exist, and the balance is different in every woman. You are only paying attention to one end of the spectrum and it is frightening you.
The manosphere believes that “AWALT” (all women are like that), and anyone who believes otherwise is a blue-pill chump. Better to say that all women have ELEMENTS of that, but also have a multitude of other qualities that may modify or negate those elements. And if you encounter a woman whose hypergamy is greater than her loyalty, don’t get involved with her. The women you described in your original posts are lane-changers – women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another. Ignore those women and find one who has always wanted a guy like you. They exist. They just might not look as hot as the women you hope to bag.
Karl R says
SEH said:
“I would like to believe not all women are the same but the lessons of Heartiste and The Rational Male get reinforced over and over again by women’s choices and behavior.”
You’re going to believe those “lessons” over the evidence that’s staring you blatantly in the face?
There are over 100 million adult males in this country. Are you just like all of them?
Are you just like the two junkies who murdered my grandparents?
Are you just like the panhandlers wandering downtown?
Are you just like the Catholic priests who were convicted of sexually abusing children?
Are you just like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, or any of the other entrepreneurs who built huge companies up from nothing?
Are you just like Madow, Fastow, Skilling, or any of the other scammers and schemers who made themselves rich by bilking the public?
You’re not like any of those men (except in the broadest biological terms), but you’ve managed to delude yourself into believing that all women are exactly the same.
Then you have the unmitigated nerve to suggest that the rest of us are blind, just because we figured out how to date more successfully than you did.
I’m feeling a vast wave of indifference toward your self-inflicted suffering. You swallowed a vast quantity of cow manure, called it a red pill, then started acting like you’re the enlightened one.
Whatever.
If you’re going to go your own way, please do so … quietly.
Jeremy says
Karl R, although I agree with your comment, I think there is more nuance to it than that. The reason the Red Pill message of hypergamy speaks to so many men is the same reason so many women believe that all men objectify them sexually. There is an element of truth to both beliefs – enough to trigger confirmation bias.
I think that all men objectify women sexually in their fantasies – it is how male sexuality works. When men see images of naked women, the areas of their brain that light up are those associated with tool use. But that objectification is only one part of the complex make-up of a man. To only see the part of a man that objectifies women is to ignore the other parts of a man that see women as partners, help-mates, soul-mates, play-mates, and mind-mates. It is to ignore that while some degree of sexual objectification may be present in the male psyche, it may not be all that important or evident in the overall picture, depending on the man.
The same is true of hypergamy, IMHO. I think that most women desire men whom they can admire for having the qualities they most value in themselves (or wish they had) in greater quantities than themselves. But in the complex make-up of a woman, that is only one small part of her personality, and may be totally eclipsed/modified by other factors. If you’re looking for evidence of hypergamy you’ll likely find it….but it may not be all that important in the complex make-up of personality, depending on the woman.
In the end, this means the same thing you wrote – all people are different. But it adds a qualifier that, I think, speaks to men who believe that all women are hypergamous and women who believe that all men are objectifiers. The message is that there is a reason you see the patterns that you see, but there is much more you are not seeing.
SEH says
@Jeremy
You hit it on the head with confirmation bias. As much as I try to fight it keeps rearing its ugly head. Its what keeps me in this perpetual state I am in.
“They just might not look as hot as the women you hope to bag.”-Jeremy
I would be very happy with average. What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women making a passable imitation of Jabba the Hutt or women that have been a pack a day smokers for decades and look like Gollum from Lord of The Rings. I am not morbidly obese and I do not smoke or drink. There are reasonably attractive ones that have shown interest in me but they are bundle packaged with truck loads of misery.
@Karl
WOW such venom!
“but you’ve managed to delude yourself into believing that all women are exactly the same.”- Karl
No I believe there are good women out there and they are not all alike. Its my fault if they don’t like me I never said otherwise. The issue is the ones that make their way to my door step are train wrecks.
“Then you have the unmitigated nerve to suggest that the rest of us are blind, just because we figured out how to date more successfully than you did.”- Karl
I don’t believe I said anything that would warrant that self righteous conclusion!
“I’m feeling a vast wave of indifference toward your self-inflicted suffering.”- Karl
I never asked you to care. In fact if you are indifferent don’t comment anymore on anything I have to say but I doubt you will be able to refrain from doing so… You strike me as one of those I have to have the last word types!
GoWiththeFlow says
SEH,
“I have reached a point where I am MGTOW not out of a hate induced choice” (@75.2.3)
“What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women making a passable imitation of Jabba the Hutt or women that have been a pack a day smokers for decades and look like Gollum from Lord of The Rings.”
Consider the possibility that you only seem to attract morbidly obese chain smokers with boxcars full of baggage because the vibe you put off IS hateful.
“The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.”
What woman wants to hang out with, much less date and marry a man who thinks her attractiveness is long gone (because she’s older than 22); who automatically assumes she considers him less than, i.e. has settled; or assumes they are looking to be saved. To borrow from Jeremy’s example, do you think men would be lining up to date a woman who’s demeanor screams all men are pigs who objectify women and only want to have sex?
Jeremy,
I agree with everything you have said but want to dive deeper into two things that the manosphere really blows way out of proportion.
Hypergamy–When women are dating they try to attract and form a relationship with the best (as they define best) man that they can. What’s wrong with that? On another older post that’s currently attracted a lot of comments, there are men defending the practice of or dropping by to boast that they attract, date, and marry much younger women. Isn’t that male hypergamy? Men trying to get the best mate that they can, where “best” is defined as “youngest”?
Also, as Susan Walsh has written about on her blog Hooking Up Smart, there is absolutely NO empirical evidence that women, en masse, engage in hypergamous behavior after they are in committed relationships, especially marriage. Yet many manosphere blogs are obsessed with the concept that women dump husbands and break up families to “trade up.”
“Lane Changing”– which you describe as “women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another.” Manosphere blogs are ripe with stories of woe about how women who would not have had anything to do with me when I was younger, but now that they are, yikes!, over 30 (and thus ancient hags) are now showing an interest me and I resent it. A second way this is phrased is the idea that young women ride the alpha cock carousel while vainly ignoring beta guys, only to turn around and “settle” for a beta guy once they’re ancient hags.
What is not being acknowledged is that people learn through experience, and that women are learning the specifics of what they want and need in a man by dating in their teens and 20s. Just like young men do. As a group, women don’t hold it against men that they chase after the cheerleaders and hot, but stuck up sorority girls, while ignoring the mere mortals, when they are younger. We know those interactions/relationships were learning experiences for you. Life is sometimes an exercise in contrasts: A man may appreciate a woman with a calm, sweet demeanor much more after he’s been through the wringer with a drama queen. In fact, he may appreciate so much more, that he reprioritizes what he looks for in a woman. Similarly, a woman may realize that a man who has an abundance of alpha traits isn’t emotionally available, and she needs that in a man way more that she needs the strong silent treatment.
Evan Marc Katz says
GWTF – that last paragraph was gold and should be required reading for the MGOTW crowd. Well done.
Chance says
Hi GWTF, I know you asked Jeremy, but I hope you don’t mind if I provide some insights around your points. As it relates to the concept of hypergamy, I believe women are hypergamous in the sense that they are much more likely to be hounded by nagging doubts about whether they have chosen the best possible mate than men are, and as a result, this is why I’ve observed that women generally (broad strokes here) have a more difficult time making peace with their decision regarding the man they’ve chosen to pair off with. This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint since women had much more riding on their decision of a mate than men, who are polygamous by nature, because of the provisioning and protection that they needed to secure. A man’s propensity is to spread his seed far and wide, of course. This is why I think the idea of “settling” is so much more terrifying to women than it is to men (again, in general). Today, most women are able to override their hypergamous instincts just as most men are able to override their polygamous instincts. Of course, women will continue to be more likely to dream about having a better partner (whether it’s the same man being better or another man altogether), and men will continue to be more likely to dream of banging other women!
Also, while the structure of family law and the legalities of marriage assist women in optimizing their hypergamous instincts (if they choose to do so), the risk of a woman choosing to go this route is slim if her partner continues to grow and improve. If this happens, his attractiveness to the opposite sex is more likely to higher than his partner as they age, and therefore, she won’t be able to find a better partner than him. This is why I think men’s fear of women trading up is overblown.
Finally, as it relates to the concept of “changing lanes”, I believe this has more to do with the fact that the male attributes that serve as cues for protection and provisioning used to be present in the same man during our early history, but today that often is not the case. I’m not sure that “changing lanes” has as much to do with women learning from mistakes when they were younger as most people would like to believe.
jeremy says
@GWTF, so much of what is written about “hypergamy” is BS. But it is important IMHO to identify the kernel of truth behind the myth, otherwise you can’t dispel it.
I have observed (though I don’t have any science to back this up), that most women tend to value in men the qualities they most value in themselves, or wish they had themselves. Women who wish they were extroverted want an extroverted guy. Women who most value their intelligence often want an intelligent guy. They want to find a man who best exemplifies the qualities they wish they had themselves. You asked what is wrong with that, and my answer is nothing! Except….
Except in making the assumption that the qualities that the woman most values in herself today will be the same qualities she most values tomorrow. Lots of work has been done in psychology that shows humans are not bad at identifying what we want right now, but we really suck at trying to predict what we will want in the future. We tend to believe that what we will want in the future will be the same as what we want now, and this is usually wrong.
I think that the “lane-changer” – the woman who dates one type of guy in her 20s and another type in her 30s – does so, not because she has learned anything through her dating experiences (except maybe that the guys she is attracted to won’t commit to her), but rather because her priorities have changed. Whereas she once most valued physical hotness and social status, maybe she now most values stability, income, and parental potential. She does so because she believes she has “matured”, and that the qualities that she now values are those that she will always continue to value.
Problem is, they may not be – if the calculus of her priorities changes yet again, the type of man to whom she will be attracted will also change. This is something that many men have experienced – the wife who changed, and lost attraction to her husband because he didn’t.
This, IMHO, is what confuses the hell out of men and leads to the myth of hypergamy. The qualities that men find attractive in women tend not to change over time (for better or for worse), and a man may have trouble understanding why/how the woman who never paid attention to him before suddenly wants to marry him. Most men wouldn’t have a problem with this – most would be overjoyed – if not for the commonality of experience that it may not last.
And so my best advice to men is to marry the sort of woman who has always wanted a guy like them. Change is always possible, but the more radical the change, the less stable it tends to be. YMMV.
Chance says
Hi jeremy, could you please elaborate on what you think has been written about hypergamy that is BS? I happen to agree that a lot of it is BS, but I’m curious to hear about the concepts with which you disagree. Thanks
SEH says
“Consider the possibility that you only seem to attract morbidly obese chain smokers with boxcars full of baggage because the vibe you put off IS hateful”- GWTF
I highly doubt these women are attracted to hate. You might hate what I had to say. GWTF these are just cold hard facts. I could also add to the list single moms that cannot afford the brood of children they have. The older I have gotten a new class of woman has shown interest in me, the chronically medically disabled. I would cast aside my view point in an instant if equal numbers of women without these existing preconditions had shown interest in me. Could you respond to the facts of the matter or do I get more emotional responses like, you are a hater?
“What woman wants to hang out with, much less date and marry a man who thinks her attractiveness is long gone (because she’s older than 22); “-GWTF
There have been a lot of assumptions made about me so let me address this one. I would like an age appropriate woman that still has even a shred of appeal left. There are plenty of women my age that are still attractive, they happen to be with other men or are not interested in me. The issue is women that wait until the absolute final ounce of their sex appeal is gone to suddenly “realize what is important” or give the ” I have grown and matured” speech. When a woman loses her sex appeal will vary from woman to woman. All I know is once its gone then they show interest in me. Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. Please GWTF an honest answer and not some dribble about being a hater or the over used “they had to grow and mature” are really just non answers to avoid the unpleasant question.
“Lane Changing”— which you describe as “women who are attracted to one type of man and marry another.” -GWTF
I would add that lane changers often have some profoundly negative things happen to them to make them change lanes. I have never had a lane changer jump into my lane because something positive happened in her life. Please don’t spin that as more “growth and maturity”. There is often a severe price to be paid for a woman’s growth and maturity and If I am the one that has to pay I do not see it as growth at all. I just see a woman that wants me to pick up the tab or avoid her situation.
@Jeremy
You have been most helpful as someone that went to the “manosphere” and were able to see it for what it was. You admit to some truths without engaging in hand waving their message away as complete rubbish. You also recognize the toxic message. What was the turning point for you and did you ever find happiness?
Adrian says
Hi SEH,
You asked, “Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. [?]”
I am not GoWithTheFlow but I can answer that question easily…
The women you want don’t find you physically attractive.
Jeremy already addressed this above, Tom10 and Emily added to it.
I don’t know much about the male sites that everyone on here keeps references but I do know about the media (print, televised, and digital) because I took a class on it. I think one of the worse things that has been done to men is to teach us that women don’t care about looks as long as a man has money.
I am in grad school now but I also currently take a few classes that have nothing to do with my major just for fun and because the subjects interest me.
One of those classes is evolutionary psychology and another is sociology.
People love to quote-out of context-that studies have been done to show that women choose partners based on his resources and though this is true, the science behind it is more complex than that.
Women value a man’s physical beauty as much as men value women’s, the difference is that the research shows that women mate select using long-term qualifications whereas we men use short-term qualifications.
In other words a woman looking for a relationship may choose a guy who is moderately handsome but he also has qualities of a good long-time partner and father over the guy who is incredibly sexy but shows traits of financial and emotional instability.
We men are different, we see a hot woman that wants us verse the okay but all around better partner type woman that wants us and we think right now not the next 5 years.
Yes you may be the exception but that does not change the rule.
Unfortunately I think we men see this and think to ourselves that, “oh she got with Gary who is not that handsome but he makes $100,000 a year, so women value money more than looks, all I need to do is make a lot of money to get a hot wife.”
When in reality the reason she got with Gary is because Gary is NOT at all an ugly man even if he is not model but besides his looks he has the other qualities she is looking for in a husband.
Have you ever noticed that women who talk about sex focus on a guys body and looks but women who talk about love and relationships focus on a man’s character and stability?
… … …
My advice to you SEH is to read what Jeremy, Tom10, and Emily said about being desirable. Especially what Emily said as far as having that balance.
If women are rejecting you it is most likely firstly your looks, then it is your finances, and lastly it would be your attitude.
So clean yourself up, go to the gym, and YES! Consider plastic surgery if you still are not appealing enough to get the type of women you want.
I think to many men are to proud to get plastic surgery but as the saying goes: “When you are starving you can’t eat your pride.”
… … …
Oh and those studies that show that women choose men based off of his financial ability were dealing with men that were top earners or at least he out earned a woman that was impoverished. So yeah you can look like the singer Seal and get a Heidi Klum but you have to be incredibly wealthy or she has to be really poor.
…
..
.
My sources: Go to any student book store and buy a evolutionary psychology or a sociology text book.
jeremy says
SEH – ultimately the question of what is “true” is not useful. We humans really have no idea what is true – our emotions lead us to believe in something and engage our rational minds to find corroborating evidence (confirmation bias, remember?).
A much more useful question is: “what makes you HAPPY?” You sound pretty miserable right now, and you are hoping that if you could only find the right girl, that would make you happy. I’m about to lay some truth on you, SEH: Happiness comes from the inside, not the outside. Nothing external will make you happy for more than a brief moment. Find a lifestyle that makes you happy, and your happiness will be much more attractive to women.
Watch the TED talk by Martin Seligman – he discusses how people often bark up the wrong tree in the search for happiness, and how really it can be achieved through – positive affect, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement (the “PERMA” principle). This will help you.
You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message? It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy. Don’t you agree?
Karl R says
SEH asked:
“There are plenty of women my age that are still attractive, they happen to be with other men or are not interested in me. […] Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me.”
I can think of a couple reasons.
Reason 1, specific to MGTOW:
I find it likely that you and I could look at the same woman and completely disagree about whether or not she still has her sex appeal. I’ve read some stuff in the manosphere where the guys spew particularly nasty statements about women I would describe as modestly attractive.
While I find my wife sexy, she is also 63. I have no doubts that numerous MGTOW would have truly horrible things to say about her appearance. I believe the same would hold true for Evan’s wife, who is an attractive woman in her 40s, but also not likely to be mistaken for a supermodel.
So if you and I can look at the same woman, and I see someone sexy, while you see someone who no longer is (or never was), that’s on you.
Reason 2, Something that Applies Equally to Women:
Women often ask (on this blog) how they can avoid attracting the wrong men. Here’s the condensed version of my answer to those women.
1. You can’t avoid attracting the wrong men (or women). You either attract more men/women, or fewer men/women. Most of the men/women you attract will be the wrong ones.
2. If you attract 100 men/women and 95% of them are the wrong ones, then you still have 5 good ones to choose from. If you only attract 10 men/women, there’s a fair chance that none of them are good ones. Therefore, it’s always better to attract more men/women.
3. It’s possible to drive away men/women. However, the first ones you’ll drive away will be the ones with options … generally the best men/women. Therefore, driving people away is the worst possible scenario.
SEH,
Everything you’ve typed here convinces me that you drive away lots of women. When I ended up talking to a toxic, negative woman, I immediately started plotting my exit strategy, and I resented every minute wasted in her presence.
None of those women were as toxic or negative as you.
Your results back me up. The only women willing to give you the time of day are the ones with the fewest options.
Jeremy is right. Learn how to become happy (while single). Misery may love company, but nobody else loves misery’s company.
Shaukat says
“Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. [?]”
Probably because you lack sex appeal. If you want my advice at all, I’d suggest you forget about women for awhile, get a gym membership and focus on getting to single digit body fat (while maintaining a healthy overall weight). Not only will it provide you with a goal and keep you away from those sites, but if you accomplish the task it will boost your confidence and do more for your sex appeal than simply engaging in positive thinking.
GoWiththeFlow says
SEH,
“Answer this question GWTF, why is it that only women that have lost their sex appeal would want me. Please GWTF an honest answer and not some dribble about being a hater or the over used “they had to grow and mature” are really just non answers to avoid the unpleasant question.”
I DID give you an honest answer. You didn’t like it so you dismiss it as “dribble”. YOU TURN WOMEN OFF with your hateful attitude and the one-dimensional, misogynistic beliefs about women.
Karl R explained this perfectly in his comment to you. Specifically under Reason 2, #3: “It’s possible to drive away men/women. However, the first ones you’ll drive away will be the ones with options … generally the best men/women. Therefore, driving people away is the worst possible scenario.”
You seem to believe that because you attract some women, even though you find them undesirable, that you can’t possibly be putting out a hateful vibe. As Karl points out, the undesirable women you are attracting may be focused on you because they don’t have options. If a guy with a misogynistic worldview is all they can get then their options are that or stay at home.
An attractive woman is one with options. Included in her options are men who have cheerful demeanors, a positive outlook on life, and an appreciation that women are interesting multi-dimensional human beings. You will lose out to those guys every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Here’s an example of how your hatefulness has come out in this thread:
A man with a healthy attitude towards women will say, “I’m not attracted to women who are obese.” What you did is disparage overweight women by comparing them to Jabba the Hut. A man with a healthy attitude says, “Smoking is a turn off, and it really affects how a woman ages.” What you said is it makes women look like Gollum from LOTR. You can express your preferences without being mean and dehumanizing the women you are talking about.
This reminds me of the time I was with a group of people at an event at a restaurant/bar that had a game on a TV. A commercial came on for a movie that was in theaters at that time. One guy made a snarky comment about how the (very attractive) lead actress “really needed a boob job.” The women in our group all looked at each other a rolled our eyes. This guy also wonders why he can’t get any “sluts” and routinely complains that women have entitlement issues. He is good looking with a solid career, and yet entitled sluts pass on him all the time to go out with guys who treat them and other women well.
Men who hold negative beliefs about women don’t walk up to a gal and say, “Hi I’m X and I hate women.” But the snarky judgmental comments and constant stream of grievances out of their mouths are their truth.
SEH, you clearly don’t think that you have a negative, hateful demeanor that is turning women off. The thing is, your perception is not what matters for practical purposes. What matters is what the women you come across see in you. And the attractive ones are voting with their feet when they walk away from you.
This is like you are a restaurant owner that gets perfect inspections from the Department of Health, but who doesn’t have any customers, especially repeat customers, because the place looks dirty with dingy paint, peeling formica table tops, and scuffed linoleum. What matters practically isn’t the Health Department’s opinion but the opinion of the customers.
Of all of the statements that you have made YOU are the only common denominator.
“What seems to be attracted to me are morbidly obese women . . .”
“The issue is the ones that make their way to my door step are train wrecks.”
“. . . a new class of woman has shown interest in me, the chronically medically disabled.”
You have a perception problem when it comes to women, but you blame the women. At any rate, the only person’s attitude and behavior you can change is your own. Instead you want women and the world to change.
Your choices are clear: Do the mental work to deprogram your brain from the cult-like red pill ideology you were indoctrinated into, or things stay the same. And if you’re unhappy with the current status quo, then maybe it’s worth the time and effort to change your mindset.
SEH says
“You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message? It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy. Don’t you agree?”- Jeremy
Agreed!
“The women you want don’t find you physically attractive.”-Adrian
I have been told by my female friends I am average. I do not repulse but I do not attract. Then again they could be telling me lies to spare my feelings. Yes a gym membership would add to my image so I will start with that.
“So if you and I can look at the same woman, and I see someone sexy, while you see someone who no longer is (or never was), that’s on you.”- Karl
I thought you were indifferent… Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years. Would you feel the same if she arrived when she was 63 instead of lets say 33. Would you feel the same if last week she was perfectly fine and could not love you but today she is chronically disabled and spouts “Where have you been all my life”.
Karl you are making lots of assumptions. I would love to grow old with a woman, I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options. If a woman invests in me when times are good I will carry her when times are bad. I will see her inner beauty when the external beauty is gone.
“If you only attract 10 men/women, there’s a fair chance that none of them are good ones. Therefore, it’s always better to attract more men/women.”- Karl
The best advice yet of all your comments. I don’t do enough to meet or attract women. If I could increase the number of women I meet then your example of 5 out of a 100 would probably come true. Unfortunately I live in a rural area, probably 10,000 people in 100 square miles. I was trapped here after my divorce (married 16 years) because I refused to sign my children over to my ex-wife. The children are grown and gone. I could leave but I have 9 years left to go to draw a pension and I cannot walk away from it. I torture myself daily, give up financial security and move to where more women are or stay and condemn myself to another decade of being alone. If I was ten years younger I would be long gone! To give you and idea of what online dating is like there are about 30 women in the 40-50 age bracket. I am attracted to about 6 of them and they are not interested in me. Years pass and its the same women over and over again almost nothing changes.
“I DID give you an honest answer. You didn’t like it so you dismiss it as “dribble”. YOU TURN WOMEN OFF with your hateful attitude and the one-dimensional, misogynistic beliefs about women”-GWTF
I think you are basing your entire opinion about me based on the Jabba and Gollum references. I don’t actually spout that crap in a woman’s presence. To be honest I am kind to these women and actually take the time to acknowledge their lives while most men just look away. However I never flirt with them so they don’t get the wrong ideas and never respond to their flirting.
I used my choice of words for emphasis otherwise everyone would assume I expected to have a playboy model, slightly overweight I can handle, morbidly obese I cannot. The Jabba reference was to place an image in peoples minds otherwise they make assumptions.
“A man with a healthy attitude towards women will say”- GWTF
Don’t be naïve to believe those healthy attitude men are enlightened. You would not believe the vile things many of them they will say about women once they are out of ear shot. Many men have learned to put on a good act for women.
“You have a perception problem when it comes to women, but you blame the women”- GWTF
Yes I am imagining the women that have rejected me and I am imaging the women that are attracted to me (plus their very real circumstances) I have already admitted its my fault multiple times if women don’t like me or are not attracted to me. Where is my perception problem?
As of right now the only conclusion I am coming to based on your comments is you took offense to my Jabba and Gollum reference, created a complete back story in your mind then leaped to the conclusion that I am misogynist. Female logic and reasoning at its finest.
Callie says
As of right now the only conclusion I am coming to based on your comments is you took offense to my Jabba and Gollum reference, created a complete back story in your mind then leaped to the conclusion that I am misogynist. Female logic and reasoning at its finest.
It’s called show don’t tell. You might SAY you are not misogynistic, but how is anyone supposed to know that when the words you choose are quite the opposite. That Jabba thing was a really nasty negative thing you said, and yes, people are going to judge you based on your decision to say such things. You have now explained why you made those choices of words, but again, how was anyone supposed to know that was your motivation? We read what you said, and yes, without any other context made assumptions.
But here’s something else: you ended this paragraph by insulting “female logic and reasoning”. Once again you SAY you’re not misogynistic but then show through your word choices and actions that you are. So maybe this might be something you might wish to consider: you claim you don’t act a certain way in public in front of women, but maybe you aren’t your own best judge. Considering you think it shows you off in a good light to end your defense of not being a bad guy or a misogynist by saying something pretty darn exactly that, I would hazard a guess that you aren’t.
Karl R says
SEH said:
“Unfortunately I live in a rural area, probably 10,000 people in 100 square miles.”
100 square miles … that’s equal to a 10 mile by 10 mile square. Slightly larger than a 5 mile radius.
If you’re willing to expand your search to a 50 mile radius, you’ll be covering 7,800 square miles. There may be several thousand more people living in that expanded area.
SEH asked:
“Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years. Would you feel the same if she arrived when she was 63 instead of lets say 33.”
Are you asking specifically about my wife? I met her when she was 54. We started dating when she was 55.
Apparently a guy was hitting on her when we were at a birthday party last night. (He must have overlooked the rings on her hand … and he was unsubtle enough that she started getting creeped out.) Clearly I’m not the only one who finds my wife attractive at 63.
Addressing your other point, my wife clearly did date other men over the years, but I wasn’t hanging around watching her do that. But I have subsequently met a few of the guys she dated.
SEH asked:
“Would you feel the same if last week she was perfectly fine and could not love you but today she is chronically disabled and spouts ‘Where have you been all my life’.”
I don’t want to make assumptions or put words in your mouth, but you’re phrasing your question in somewhat vague terms.
Are you saying that there is a woman (or multiple women) who previously rejected your advances? After rejecting your advances, she developed a chronic disability? And after developing the chronic disability, she asked you “Where have you been all my life?”
Did I get that right? And this has happened, not once, but with multiple women?
If a woman did that to me, I would strongly suspect that she was just using me for insurance, and other types of support. Obviously, I’m not interested in being used that way.
But there are women who had chronic conditions when I first met them. (I wouldn’t say they were disabled, since they held down jobs, had insurance, and were able to manage the other aspects of their lives.) I have dated a couple of those women.
SEH said:
“I would love to grow old with a woman, I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options.”
My wife is older than me. It seems highly likely that I will become a widower in my seventies. I also expect to eventually remarry. My next wife and I won’t have the option of growing old together. We’ll start out old and keep getting older.
If/when I start dating as a widower, I expect to be older, grayer and wrinklier (just like the women I’ll be dating). I also expect to still have options, as will the women I’ll date.
When I eventually reenter the dating market, I’m sure the first few women I date will be ones who were already in my social circle. It sounds like you would expect the women to resent me, since I had spent my 40s, 50s and 60s faithfully married to my wife, rather than divorcing her and pursuing them.
(Again, I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying, because you communicate in a rather vague manner.)
But if that’s how you really feel, I have to say that you have a rather unusual way of viewing the situation.
The men and women that I know, may resent someone after they’ve been dumped. They don’t resent someone for being willing to date them (even if they were pursuing others previously).
Regarding indifference:
I said I was indifferent to your suffering. But as I pointed out to Nick (further down the thread), you provide a dark mirror, one that I can use to show women how misandry, negativity and resentment (whether theirs or others) appears to men.
You’re doing a great job of serving as a bad example.
GoWiththeFlow says
SEH,
Let’s get this out of the way first. . .
SEH said, “Female logic and reasoning at its finest.”
I have said substantively the same thing to you that other men on this comment thread have: That your negative attitude about women turns women off. And while you have given terse retorts to some of the men, I am summarily dismissed and insulted by you based on my female gender. This, right here, is the crux of your problem. Men you disagree with, a woman, on the other hand, is thinking illogically.
SEH said, “I just want shared memories not a life time of what she gave to other men. Time spent together when times were good and she had choices and options.”
Not a life time of what she gave to other men”
What the heck does that even mean? You are a middle aged divorced man with kids. A woman who takes on you has to accept your history, including that you spent your youth married to another woman and will always be tied to her through your children. Yet it seems that you expect a 40-50 year old woman to have been kept on a shelf in the closet covered in bubble wrap, just so she has had no interactions with men that you find objectionable.
“What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again. The worst part of it is realizing that women see you as someone to settle for after their attractiveness is long gone or someone to save them from their self inflicted problems.”
You will never be able to look at women the same way. Meaning you now have a negative view of them.
“Karl would you feel the same about this woman if you did not have shared memories with her? Would you feel the same if she told you she just wanted to be friends while you watched her with other men for years.”
So you look at women who had prior relationships with other men and resent them for it because they should have been with you?
It’s not just the Jabba the Hut and Gollum comments. You’re jaded view of women flows throughout your comments.
SEH says
@Karl
Oops my choice of words was wrong I should of said a 100 mile radius. I live in the largest community in the region population 4,000. The nearest city is 3 hours away.
I believe you and I have had very different experiences when it comes to women. You seem to have enjoyed successful relationships with healthy, attractive, reasonable women. This has shaped your view and experience. You remind me of a friend of mine that has enjoyed profound success. He cannot grasp what it is like to be me. Please don’t interpret that as an insult to you Karl. I posed this question to my friend, What if the only women that were interested in you had to have these negative preconditions would you still have your upbeat positive view of them? He can’t answer the question because it is beyond the realm of his experience.
To answer one of your questions yes I have had women reject me only to come back after a negative down turn in their lives. Hell my ex-wife is a prime example, she has repeatedly asked me to take her back in-between failed relationships with other men. She is the one that filed for divorce and thought she could trade up… I have had a woman try to trap me with seduction when she was pregnant with another mans child. The list goes on and on…
The most common thread I see in all of these women is maxed out credit cards, bounced checks and teetering on the edge of financial Armageddon. Suddenly clowns that have mastered the art of producing “chemistry” in 30 seconds or less have vanished. Nice guys now get the spot light…
The bottom line is I am sick of being the last choice for a woman when she is out of options and choices. This is why I can’t shake the lessons of Heartise, The Rational Male and the “Manosphere”. I accept that it is my fault I do not attract. I also insist women own their choices and stop spinning every negative as “growth and maturity”.
@GWTF
My comment regarding “female logic and reasoning at its finest” is not misogynist! I have seen MANY (not all) women in the work force and in the relationships I have had present female intuition and feelings as facts. They leap to conclusions that are devoid of reason. When cold hard facts are presented where they cannot wish them away they tend to freak out , shut down or hurl insults. Most commonly the conversation is over therefore they were never defeated…
Oh one more thing I don’t believe women should be in a bubble. I accept they have had lives before they met me. I am just sick of lane changers and women that are out of options. I am also sick of women that change their value systems at the drop of a hat. Example..
When did you become a lady?
About 10 seconds ago!
Oh so for the chemistry clowns you were a sex kitten but for me you are not?
But I have grown and matured and if you cannot see that you are a misogynist!
Oh one final note I think you missed the part about my children being grown and “gone”.
GoWiththeFlow says
SEH,
ROFL! Get therapy. Really. Your own cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.
The two beliefs that are mutually exclusive, yet held as truth in one mind:
#1: “My comment regarding “female logic and reasoning at its finest” is not misogynist!”
#2: “I have seen MANY (not all) women in the work force and in the relationships I have had present female intuition and feelings as facts. They leap to conclusions that are devoid of reason. When cold hard facts are presented where they cannot wish them away they tend to freak out , shut down or hurl insults. Most commonly the conversation is over therefore they were never defeated…”
Aw, did you cut and paste this imaginary conversation from Heartsite or RM?
“When did you become a lady?
About 10 seconds ago!
Oh so for the chemistry clowns you were a sex kitten but for me you are not?
But I have grown and matured and if you cannot see that you are a misogynist!”
Face it, this is all in your mind. You sit around stewing and your imagination runs amok about all the malevolent ways women are out to get you.
Stay in your small town and get your pension. Moving to the big city won’t help you because it’s not a numbers game, it’s what’s inherent in you that is the problem.
BTW, I know I am not going to change your Manosphere belief system. That’s a job for a cult deprogrammer since you are in so deep. My hope is that hurt, lonely men out there may see the comments on Evan’s blog and will pull themselves back from the abyss of hate and perpetual victimhood.
SEH says
@GWTF
Well you started off with I was a hater, quickly jumped to misogynist and summed it up with I need therapy. You claim I am imagining everything and I am some how mentally ill. What facts do you bring to this discussion to support your claim? What qualifications do you have to decide I am mentally ill? You said I believe women are out to get me implying I am paranoid. I never said all women at out to get me just women without options and that is not paranoia. My experiences are facts not something you can just wish away and rush to your mental diagnosis and judgement. You have said only one thing I agree with, “You turn women off”, at least the women I find desirable. Yes I accept responsibility for who I am and If they find me desirable or not.
I will stay in my small town you are right going to the city will probably just produce more of the same results on a grander scale. By the time I reach retirement I won’t care at all. Women owe me nothing and I will in turn owe them nothing.
I am done by the way beyond this point it just gets nasty and personal. You can have the final word if you desire. Thanks to all of for taking the time to comment.
GoWiththeFlow says
SEH,
You said:
“Well you started off with I was a hater, quickly jumped to misogynist and summed it up with I need therapy. You claim I am imagining everything and I am some how mentally ill. What facts do you bring to this discussion to support your claim?”
Just for the record, a misogynist is inherently a hater: It’s someone who hates women.
The “facts” I bring are your own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs that you wrote about in your comments. (And for someone who twice said I was being emotional, you sure are bringing all of yours to the party.) And I never said you were mentally ill. What I did say was “get therapy.” I said that because people who are hurt and are unhappy with aspects of their life (in your case your interactions with women) yet feel powerless to change, can benefit greatly from therapy. Read what you wrote here:
“It is unfortunate that I actually paid it a visit along with sites like Heartiste and the Rational Male. The hate can be easily dismissed. What I cannot purge from my mind is the cold hard truth of much of what I read and how it applied to my life. I will never be able to look at women the same ever again.”
And in another comment further down the thread:
“You hit it on the head with confirmation bias. As much as I try to fight it keeps rearing its ugly head. Its what keeps me in this perpetual state I am in.”
And this:
“@Jeremy. You have been most helpful as someone that went to the “manosphere” and were able to see it for what it was. You admit to some truths without engaging in hand waving their message away as complete rubbish. You also recognize the toxic message. What was the turning point for you and did you ever find happiness?“
““You asked what my first step was in rejecting the manosphere message? It was realizing that it was making my life miserable rather than happy. Don’t you agree?”- Jeremy
Agreed!“
You admitted you are unhappy and feel you cannot get yourself back to a place where you can get what you want: a relationship with a woman you find attractive and who has positive character traits you desire. Therapy can help get you there.
YOU (SEH) said: “My experiences are facts not something you can just wish away. . .”
Your experiences ARE NOT facts, they are experiences that lead to OPINIONS, and opinions are not facts. Go back and read Jeremy’s posts on confirmation bias.
Regarding experience being fact or leading to opinions:
“You said I believe women are out to get me implying I am paranoid. I never said all women at out to get me just women without options and that is not paranoia.”
So women without options are out to get you? What, can they tie you up, force a gun to your head and make you marry them?
As Karl R said: “You can’t avoid attracting the wrong men (or women). You either attract more men/women, or fewer men/women. Most of the men/women you attract will be the wrong ones.”
People get hit on by people they’re not attracted to or don’t like all the time. It’s the price of doing business. The problem seems to be that you perseverate on it and are angry about it, and can’t let go of it. Your attitude seems to be “How DARE they!” What’s the big deal? Say no thanks and move on.
Instead you seem to mull it over in your head and create a whole narrative about these women that is your opinion (no doubt helped along by the manosphere lessons). These women are “lane changers” who are damaged, gave their “sex kitten” best selves to “bad boys”, and now feel entitled to be rescued.
The first two sentences below illustrates this:
“The bottom line is I am sick of being the last choice for a woman when she is out of options and choices. This is why I can’t shake the lessons of Heartise, The Rational Male and the “Manosphere”. I accept that it is my fault I do not attract. I also insist women own their choices and stop spinning every negative as “growth and maturity”.”
Those last two sentences say it all. You give lip service to accepting responsibility for your situation, while still trying to stick the blame on women.
Shaukat says
The reason the Red Pill message of hypergamy speaks to so many men is the same reason so many women believe that all men objectify them sexually.
The main issue with hypergamy, at least as it is understood by the red pill types, is that the concept is supposed to be rooted in evolutionary psychology, a field which, at best, involves massive guess work. EP is unlike Evolutionary Biology in that the latter can be corroborated through fossil evidence, experimentation, and microbiology, while EP entails spinning fanciful stories that may or may not be true.
Hypergamy literally means marrying/dating above one’s social class status. Homo-sapiens evolved during the Pleistocene period, when the concept of money was non-existent and daily survival was the most important factor driving evolution since resources/food was extremely scarce. Adopting conventional theories of sexual selection, and ignoring the three other mechanisms aside from natural selection that drive the evolutionary process (drift , mutation, and migration), we can safely assume that females would have evolved to select traits in a mate that would have ensured their own survival, manifested through phenotypes such as height (to maximize survival during periods of famine, when food was located in difficult to reach places), physical size/strength, etc.
“Status,” whatever that meant during that period, would not have played any role in mate election, especially since individuals were organized in tribes and pairing off was facilitated by elders. In other words, if we assume that that the behaviors associated with the above selection criteria have become a fixed trait in females (a rather big assumption in my opinion), then literally the only deduction we can draw from the evidence is that females will select based on good genes, i.e, physical characteristics (health, strength, height, etc), manifested most often as ‘chemistry.’ Desire based on other factors, money, status, wealth, fame, power, are probably the product of socialization, despite claims to the contrary.
In other words, while generosity and kindness are important, the root of the frustration of men like SEH is that they erroneously assume that the above will suffice, and when it doesn’t, they buy the MRA swill that women only care about money, dominance, which breeds further resentment.
Fixing the physical characteristics that they have control over would thus massively improve their odds, but because of the ongoing myth that women don’t really care about such things, MRA sites flourish.
James says
Most of the women nowadays are really very stupid to begin with since they will only go with the bad boy type of men unfortunately which really makes it very complicated for many of us good men nowadays looking to meet a good woman to settle down with. The very sad thing is that these women will be treated very badly by these type of men since these women really don’t know any better anyway. Thank God that most women weren’t like that at all years ago which most men and women in those days made it very easy meeting one another which today is totally a different story altogether. They deserve what they get.
Henriette says
Most of the women nowadays are really very stupid to begin with… Gee, thank you; what a lovely comment to make on a blog for women, that is read by thousands of women!
they will only go with the bad boy type of men unfortunately which really makes it very complicated for many of us good men... How does it complicate matters for good men? A woman who genuinely wants a man who treats her badly suffers from all kinds of issues that would make her a lousy long-term mate. If anything, if women with poor judgement and low self-esteem won’t date you, that should simplify dating by screening out poor candidates.
men and women in those days made it very easy meeting one another… Really? I’ve heard many stories of heartbreak and loneliness from past generations. I don’t think that finding lasting, healthy love has ever been impossible nor has it ever been easy.
Bala says
yes we are really, really, very stupid……………. FFS, why are we 60% of University entrances then?? We are overtaking you bozos who are sitting on your laurels thinking balls make you smart, lol… Younger men surround me daily wanting to work for me. seriously, you old dudes are dinosaurs when it comes to viewing women the way they actually are – moverz and shakers and willing to do what it takes, as well as, having the empathy to see the way it SHOULD be done. we don’t step on other people to get where we are. James, get a clue and man TFU. Wah wah – good men,,,,, wah wah. What about us good women? We’ve been around for literal centuries. You guys are just a shadow.
Lone Rose says
I dream of meeting a nice guy all the time, particularly more so after all the bad men i have encountered in my past! So i couldn’t be more opposite to those sort of women who like the ‘bad boys’!
Nick says
Being kind is the key. Real women make men real men. Natural attraction involves masculine men and feminine women. Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades. Look at how unhappy most women are. The good women are expressing their dislike for those types because they look bad now. So you can’t write off what I’m saying to masogyny.
Persephone says
Nick, maybe it would help me understand you if you describe what you mean when you say, ” Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades.” Do you mean women who want to be stay-at-home moms? Or women who wear lace, and look pretty, and do their hair?
Or do you mean women who sit down and shut up when they are paid $8.00, while their male coworker who does the same job but is less effective and has been there less time gets $13.00 an hour? Or do you mean us uppity women who want to leave the office job that pays $8.00 an hour, to go out in the production area to make $18.00 an hour, because we grew up on a farm driving tractors and probably have more forklift driving skills than the men do? Or the woman on the job that is mostly men, who grabs the chainsaw to “git ‘er dun” because she used to be married to a logger, and no one else stepped up to the plate to do the work? Yeah? That same woman, while not in a hard hat, can still dress pretty and girly. She can afford cuter dresses and better hair products, too, for working a male dominated job.
So I don’t get your comments.
Nick says
I meant be dominant over men in relationships and try to make men the submissive ones. It isnt natural and women are actually attracted to masculine men, whether they want to admit it or not.
Persephone says
I am not trying to be difficult, but can you give examples, Nick? I want to understand you . What is “being dominant over men” in your opinion? Since we are obviously not talking about kinky sex BDSM, you should clarify. Do you mean by making more money? Or do you mean by being involved in the decision-making process on how much to allocated of the household budget on various things? I am not understanding you, so I hope you can clarify.
Nick says
Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them. Have you watched Paul Elam videos? What about Karen Straughans? They describe American women to the T.
Evan Marc Katz says
No, they hate American women, generalize them, and place the entire burden of relationship failure on women. I distribute equal opportunity blame instead of foolishly heaping it on one gender. Now, please, go back to the Mansophere and leave the adults to their even-tempered discussion.
Nick says
A straight woman is generalizing American women? That makes no sense. The Census Bureau claims the divorce rate is 51%. American women are ranked #2 on the worst nationality of partners list, next to British women. Read the womens’ comments above. They aren’t the brightest crayons in the box.
Karl R says
Paul Elam is a woman?
Are you sure?
And if you’re relying on “Red Pills” or Return of Kings for your facts … well … maybe you shouldn’t be badmouthing the other crayons.
GoWiththeFlow says
The divorce rate is not 51%. https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/marriage/the-divorce-rate-in-the-united-states-is-declining/
But people who want the divorce rate to be high because it fits their narrative that American women suck (OMG they’re number #2 in the world for worst partner!–Yeah, link that scientific study dude) will continue to repeat that. Including a few straight American women who have figured out that manosphere guys will adore them if they throw all other women under the bus. Guys tell me that there are men out there that kiss up to women by playing the ‘Yeah, I agree with you ladies, men are horrible!” card. Because the inherent implication is they are one of the few who isn’t horrible. It’s a unique niche they carve out for themselves.
Persephone says
Thank you, Evan! I could not agree more. I am no fan of the so called “fathers’ rights” movement and the “anti-feminists.” As an attorney, I strongly believe both parents have rights, but we also must make sure the Best Interests of the Children are focused upon. The fathers’ rights movement seems to trample on children’s rights and blame the mothers. It’s not abuse, they say, it’s Parental Alienation Syndrome, a made up term that is not uniformly recognized by the mental health community or legal community as being valid. I have had it with bitter men! (Neither gender has a monopoly on bitterness, but since “Nick” seems to be a male name…. )
Nick says
Karen Straughan is.
GoWiththeFlow says
And I bet she’s making a killing in her self-created niche as a Red Pill woman.
Nick says
Any man who watches those videos will feel an incredible sense of being “unbrainwashed.” Thats why they use the Matrix analogy blue pill and red pill.
Karl R says
Nick,
If you think Karen Straughan is “unbrainwashing you”, then you’ve been taking pills of all sorts of colors.
I’ve watched one of her better videos, the one about systemic gendered violence against men (and parts of three others that were … tiresome). She made some excellent points in that video. She backed some of them up with statistics, without citing the sources of the statistics. When I tracked down credible sources for those statistics, they were inflated.
She also made a lot of really weak points. She especially had an annoying habit of trying to disprove or downplay the existence of systemic gendered violence against women (even where the facts clearly showed the existence and prevalence of that violence).
It was sad, really. She could have taken an unassailable position that men -and- women are victims of systemic gendered violence, that in western countries, the men experience a far greater portion of this violence (with some exceptions for specific types of circumstances), and that we are so accustomed to this systemic gendered violence, we consider it to be normal, and even morally right.
Instead, she used inflated and unverifiable statistics and took weak positions in order to make her case more one-sided.
If you believe every word she says, without a huge dose of skepticism, you are being brainwashed.
GoWiththeFlow says
Nick honey,
You seem to be new around here. I’ve been reading Evan’s blog for ~3 years now and there is something of a phenomenon that happens where different Red Pill guys pop up every few months on this blog about forming healthy relationships to proselytize with all the fervor of a true believin’ religious fanatic about how relationships suck because women suck and men are society’s victims. I don’t know if they’re here to win over new converts by “unbrainwashing” the unbelievers who think women are decent human beings, but after a flurry of red pill comments, they give up and return to their safe havens in the manosphere.
Just letting you know how this typically goes ahead of time.
Persephone says
I don’t want “bad boys.” I want “nice.” I have found an incredibly nice, well mannered fella. We are taking things slowly, and been seeing each other for six months. Our work schedules are crazy busy, so we only get weekends. Most men would demand more from me, and most women would demand more from him, so that is probably why each of us didn’t work in relationships with others. He has never called me bad names or been horrible to me, but then on the other hand he does not suffocate me, either. The right balance is refreshing. No bad boys for this ol’ gal!
Nick says
Karen Straughan is and 99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages.
GoWiththeFlow says
“. . . 99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages.”
Back that up with scientific statistics Nick. Otherwise you are regurgitating an opinion that is being used in an exercise on confirmation bias.
Nick says
The Census Bureau will give you the accurate divorce rate, not that link…
Karl R says
Where to find divorce rates:
The CDC tracks divorce statistics, based on Census Bureau data. It’s possible that Nick found a link to a CDC report on the Census Bureaus cite, but the bulk of the reports will be accessible from the CDC website.
Neither site provides data which is sufficiently granular for me to run my own statistical analyses.
The divorce rate:
Which one?
Off the top of my head, I can think of three different ways that the divorce rate is calculated. All of them have problems.
When I think of the divorce rate, I’m thinking of my chance of making it “until death do us part”. If that’s what you’re looking for, sorry. None of them calculate that. If either the husband or wife dies, the couple is excluded from the calculation.
A 51% divorce rate:
If you look at older data (or a combination of older/newer data), you can probably get a number right around 50%. It’s also possible that Nick found a particular recent calculation that yielded this rate. I can’t speak to the reliability or weaknesses of the calculation without seeing an explanation for how it was derived.
Regardless of the methodology, people who get married young skew the divorce rate upward.
Nick says
Im not a bad person nor a masogynist. Im willing to love a woman thatll love me. Why is everybody hitting me with hurtful comments?
Katie says
Nick said….
Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them. Evan these types of women end up fat,single, and alone and miserable. They won’t pick nice men because they know they don’t deserve them.
Hi, Nick! That’s why.
Katie says
Oh and btw, it misogynist. Miso like the soup.
Evan Marc Katz says
Nick’s reply was a direct insult to Katie and was also misspelled.
-The Management
GoWiththeFlow says
Nick,
You are promoting Red Pill ideology that is chock full of misogyny. Red Pill is the flip side of the coin of radical feminism. They both have a lot in common; dehumaning and stereotyping the opposite sex; an inability to listen to the other side (because you need not listen to a sub-human); dismissal of any data or information that contradicts their worldview; an us versus them mentality; and embracing the victim role.
You say you are willing to love a woman who will love you, but what you are missing is that a woman will love a man that loves women. What about your statements that “99% of women my age are alone or in codependent marriages,” or “Women have wanted to be Supremacists for decades,” or “Look at how unhappy most women are,” says I love women! Your words say women are complete wretches who want to dominate men.
Now let’s go over (since you’ve been unbrainwashed and all) what Red Pill orthodoxy states about women. They are out to ride the cock carousel with bad boys while they’re young while maliciously ignoring nice guys. And then they become desperate shriveled up hags on their 30th birthday. Whereupon they malevolently trick a poor beta guy they would have ignored when younger into marriage. Only to cheat on him every chance they get, because hypergamy! And then they file for divorce for no good reason and leave their ex destitute and heart broken. Oh and as SEH says in comment 75, women are “damaged” unless they are a virgin who has never dated or slept with another guy. But men’s goal should be to fuck (and thereby damage) as many as possible. And BTW watch out, a woman will claim NAWALT! Don’t believe it because all women are like this. Beware guys, no exceptions!
Yeah, why would any woman be attracted to a man who thinks that about her? It would be like a radical feminist expecting a man to want to love her despite that fact that she believes all sex is rape, all men want to inherently subjugate women, and they live to make wars and destroy the planet.
Nick, I don’t know what hurt in your heart drove you to look for answers on the internet and connect with the Red Pill message. But the attitudes and beliefs you have embraced about women won’t inspire one to love you and want to make you happy. And it must be miserable on some level to go through life thinking society and women are out to get you at every turn. That you want a woman to love you but women are inherently untrustworthy, so the answer is to play games in a calculated way.
Read Jeremy’s response to SEH. (comment 75 thread) Karl R’s too. And Buck’s beliefs that true alpha confidence in a man comes from working towards goals, embracing responsibility, having a code of ethics and integrity, but also developing a sense of empathy and sympathy.
Evan Marc Katz says
(slow clap for GWTF!)
Nick says
I never said all women are bad. Women who arent feminine are undateable. I never said men should sleep around. I think such men are scum. Everybodys twisting my words around. Ill be happy with just one woman for the rest of my life if its an interdependent marriage.
GoWiththeFlow says
LOL! Dude! The researchers used the divorce data from the CDC.
But don’t let a study using the data from the statistical resource YOU quote interfere with your need to believe that marriage sucks because women suck 😉
BTW, still waiting for your link to the statistically significant and reproduceable scientific study that shows that “99% of the women” in your age group are “alone or in codependent marriages.”
Nat says
@Nick: “Ill be happy with just one woman for the rest of my life if its an interdependent marriage.” “Being kind is the key… Natural attraction involves masculine men and feminine women. “
Your desires seem fair enough, from reading some of your comments. I hope u can find what u want, and I’m sure u can, if u keep a positive mindset. 🙂
What I find puzzling is that u don’t feel that there are many women who meet those (very reasonable) criteria around u–feminine, respectful women who can be one half of a mutually beneficial relationship. I don’t have a ton of female friends, but of those I have, maybe 3/4 of them fit that criteria. It makes me think that maybe your lenses/standards are a bit skewed. I think you would say the same thing to a woman who claimed there were hardly any “good men” around.
Nick says
Ive come across some great women. Theyre always married to a good man with kids before I meet them. The women I pursued were the emotionally unavailable types. I wish Id known that before pursuing them. Its THEM I typically hear say “Nice guys dont exist” or “Where are the all the good men?” I hope my luck changes soon.
Nick says
Women making angry comments on here are using the terms like “dude” and “buddy.” Im guessing they arent Ivy League. Theyre probably junior college dropouts. The blog is called “Most Women Dont Dream of Dating Nice Guys.” Why would women even be on such a blog? Something’s not stirring the Kool-Aid. A woman who picks bad men must be bad themselves. How are good men who get sent to the ringer wrong?
Nick says
There is no equal opportunity blame here and if its one-sided(against men) its ok.
Karl R says
Nick said: (#81.3.1)
“The women I pursued were the emotionally unavailable types. I wish Id known that before pursuing them. Its THEM I typically hear say ‘Nice guys dont exist’ or ‘Where are the all the good men?'”
If a woman says that (or anything similar, like “All the good men are taken”), then she’s not a good match for any man. As you said, you don’t want to pursue her. You want to dump her as soon as she shows that attitude.
This type of woman blames men for their dating problems. It’s not your job (or any man’s job) to change her mind. That’s her responsibility.
Nick said: (#81.3.1)
“Ive come across some great women. Theyre always married to a good man with kids before I meet them.”
So, in other words, “All the good women are taken.”
What did I just say about women who said things like that?
When you say things like that, you’re telling the world that you’re not a good match for any woman. Women won’t want to date you. If they’re already dating you, they should dump you as soon as you show that attitude.
You even had a description for women like that. You called them “emotionally unavailable”.
When you blame women for your dating problems, it’s not any woman’s job to change your mind. That’s your responsibility.
Nick said: (#83)
“There is no equal opportunity blame here and if its one-sided(against men) its ok.”
If you read through this entire website, you will find hundreds of places where women accuse me (and Evan) of always blaming women.
That accusation typically comes from women who blame men for their dating problems (the same women you describe as “emotionally unavailable”).
There are also a similar number of men who accuse me (and Evan) of always blaming men. They’re the ones who blame women for their dating problems.
As I said earlier (#75.1.2.2) blaming women is pointless. (So is blaming men.) It’s your responsibility to fix your own dating problems. Nobody else is going to do it for you.
Nick asked: (#82)
“The blog is called ‘Most Women Dont Dream of Dating Nice Guys.’ Why would women even be on such a blog?”
The website is called “Understand Men. Find Love.” (It’s right up at the top of the page.)
So it would be more appropriate to ask why men are even on this blog.
Evan owns the website, the business, and the blog. His presence is easy to explain.
Many of the most notable male contributors showed up looking for free dating advice. (A few men even become Evan’s clients, but they represent a tiny portion of his client base.) Mostly we’re welcome because we provide insight into what men think.
Many women are interested in getting someone similar to men like Jeremy, Nathan, Mr. Right or me. (Maybe not someone who looks like us, but someone who thinks and acts like us.) Our posts explain what types of behaviors are likely to attract commitment-minded men, and what type of behaviors are likely to drive those same men away.
Then there are men like Tom10 and Lance. They’re the charming alphas whom so many women are attracted to … even though these men have no intention of settling down anytime soon. They show women both the attractiveness -and- the futility of chasing a commitment with these men.
Men like you and SEH, you provide the dark mirror. When a woman shows up and blames men for her dating problems, we can point to posts like yours and ask, “Do you want to date a man who sounds like Nick or SEH?” They, of course, don’t want to date men who blame women. And that’s when we point out that they sound exactly the same way … so no men will want to date them either.
Some of those women learn. They change their tone. They stop blaming men. They become a lot more successful. Others don’t change. When they leave, they are just as angry and unsuccessful as when they first showed up.
Similarly, you can learn. You can change your tone. You can stop blaming women. You can become a lot more successful. (It still won’t be easy. I was dating steadily for three years before I started dating my wife.)
Or you can decide not to change. In that case, you will be just as angry and unsuccessful when you leave.
Nick says
Good. I want a woman to learn and change as well. I want us to eventually cross paths and be together.
Karl R says
Nick said:
“Good. I want a woman to learn and change as well.”
Why is that good?
If a woman learns and changes, she does it for her benefit, not yours.
And until you change, you’ll still be the kind of person that I recommend that men and women avoid dating.
Just to be clear, my wife did not change. I did.
Nick says
I just said Ill improve as a person too. I started working out and striving to improve my overall health.
Karl R says
Nick said:
“I just said Ill improve as a person too.”
I think you missed my point.
Improving as a person is is wonderful. I would strongly recommend looking at what Jeremy wrote (#75.2.2.2) above, and what Tom10 wrote (#75.2.2.3). I would also read the blog post Evan did talking about the importance of the combination of passion and proficiency.
I was asking about the word “too”.
It sounds like you’re requiring that women change (or a woman changes). It’s certainly nice if you meet a woman who is improving herself and her dating/relationship skills, but that seems like an unnecessary requirement to me.
More importantly, there are very few women who will be working on their dating and relationship skills. As far as I know, in all my time dating, I never met a woman who had read any of Evan’s advice.
While my wife does improve herself (things like job skills), they’re not necessarily traits that really matter to me. She certainly hasn’t learned anything that Evan teaches. (If she had, she wouldn’t have wasted 30+ years in a series of relationships with men who made lousy boyfriends.)
The advice that I pointed you toward (by Jeremy, Tom10 and Evan) will increase the number of women who are attracted to you. Much of Evan’s other advice will tell you which women you need to avoid. (The advice is usually directed toward women, but it applies equally to men.)
Don’t worry about what advice women are learning. It’s generally irrelevant to your success.
Nick says
Bye bye dark mirror.
jeremy says
@Chance, end of thread 75. You asked me why I call BS on the whole hypergamy issue. Shaukat did a good job explaining what is wrong from an evo-psych perspective, but I think it boils down to something much simpler. The theory states that women want a man who is “better than them.” But better at what?
Is it that women want a man who has higher societal status? GWTF raised an excellent point that most women today marry sideways rather than up. Is it that they want a man with more education? Maybe, but although many women do want that, others don’t – so are only SOME women hypergamous? Red pill would have us believe it is all! Is it that they want men with more money? Again same issue as with education. The manosphere guys accuse women of “moving the goalposts”, but they are excellent themselves at this when it comes to nailing down what hypergamy actually means in their context.
Whatever any individual man believes hypergamy applies to – education, money, status, whatever – he will find examples to confirm his bias and will ignore the examples that don’t. That is lazy and leads to a distorted world-view. There may be a kernel of truth (as I described above) that most women pick certain qualities they value and look for the best man they can get in terms of those qualities. And, as GWTF rightly stated, men do the same thing. The only difference is that women are far more likely to change the qualities they value than men, over the course of their lifetime.
Calli says
My husband was able to hold his temper only so far and for many he was what he quoted so often.'”Yeah though I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil because I am the badest in that valley” He even took to comparing himself to Lucifer when he told us in 2001 that he would rather rule in his hell than agree to serve in our heaven That was after he left me with a broken ankle laying under the door he had just kicked in on top of me after I bolted him out to heart four young men out about pulling a job bid, They were laying from our porch to the street in Critacal condition. He also told me that morning that if I ever bolted him out again to get hurt the next time my date was with an undertaker and not some friend his father set me up with.MY husband is one of the few men I have seen that can cause fear with just one look, I have seen him use his training of two military services and his martial arts training to turn people inside out when the crossed him and tried to force him into their way of thinking. When The 2009 Vacation on the Orient express came up because we canceled his vacation on it and gave it to a man with 32 years less seniority He dislocated my shoulder and tried to strangle his father to death getting his passport back. All we were asking then was he wait 210 more days for the surprise we had arranged after the shutdown I have told him with just a little prior planning and cooperation he could have had at least a little of what he had earned in his life including a sex life, all he had to do was go along to get along for that. He just would never let any one decide for him when he was going to be allowed his way. Now there’s nothing of charity in him> I have stoped trying to get him to at least try and get along after he came home from three years of Rehab after MRSA caused his spinal cord to be crushed and partiually severed also in 2009. I was Getting ready to go out to a diner event with his mother, father and his fathers best friend when he arrived home, That Evening he would not let me say yes to sex he took what he wanted from me then threw his fathers friend off the deck face first into the Drive after Telling me to call 911, That from that evening he was the final judge and arbiter in what he was allowed in his home and we could all drop dead. I was just trying to get him to pick a place to meet in four hours where everyone could think of ways to include him a little bit without causing any one to panic, HE said go ahead run into the ocean like lemmings And He would watch laughing. I was hurting after that, And He was still angry.
No Name To Give says
You cannot give for the purpose of getting. Be a better judge of character, rather than trying to love bomb a woman into loving you. When Evan says women want nice guys with balls, he’s 1000% correct. You cannot be respected by being a doormat; that doesn’t mean you need to be a jerk or an asshole. And the woman who wants a jerk has problems of her own. You know how men can smell a woman who’s desperate to tie him down? Women can do the same thing with men. I’m sure Karl R, Jeremy, and some other regular men on here know exactly how to be nice guys that command respect. They don’t do it by being jerks or “bad boys”.