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One reader on my Facebook page wrote: “When a man’s in love he wants to propose as soon as he can.”
Needless to say, I disagree with that. Wait. It’s not that I disagree with that. There are MANY men who propose as soon as they can when they’re in love. But are they making the wise decision? That’s something else entirely.
Another reader – who was attempting to shoot down my assertion that you should ideally wait 2-3 years before getting engaged – sent me a link to a super-informative article. In it, Professor Ted Huston studies 168 couples for ten years. Not a big sample size, but an interesting result.
“Researchers saw some typical changes that take place in all marriages during the first couple of years: fewer overt displays of affection; less sex; and fewer leisure activities together, as the relationship evolves from a romantic, recreational relationship to something like a working partnership.”
This is all normal and predictable, says the married dating coach. If you expect your marriage to be otherwise, you’ve got a big surprise waiting for you.
“The fact of a couple moving quickly toward marriage is not in and of itself a problem as much as what is driving the speed. (The average length of courtships in the study was two years, four months)…Speed can become a problem when it is driven by romance and fantasy because, unless one is extraordinarily lucky, the suitors discover that the partner was not as lovely as they had imagined. Long courtships, Huston argues, are rarely long because the partners are exercising due caution. If a couple is still finding lots of reasons not to marry after four or more years, then that’s usually because they’re subconsciously picking up on problems or even thinking that they themselves aren’t suitable for marriage, ever.”
Makes perfect sense to me. Which is why I’m going to double down on my theory that you shouldn’t get engaged before at least two years (like most couples already do) and you shouldn’t marry when you’re caught up in those giddy feelings. By the same token, if one party is really delaying marriage (going beyond 4 years), then it’s not a matter of being cautious, it’s a sign that he/she doesn’t really want to get married.
Other useful takeaways:
-Happily married couples shared many traits, including courtships that progressed smoothly toward marriage with little drama; their courtships had a quiet, romantic feeling, but as important, they sensed they were marrying someone who could be a good friend.
-Unhappily married couples had low-key courtships that moved forward slowly because either one or both of the partners lacked much warmth or had difficult personalities.
-Early exiters (what Huston calls “Country Music Romances”) divorced very quickly, within two to seven years of marrying. They have very long courtships and appeared to marry with the hope that it would “improve” the relationship, though they’re well aware that they have major problems.
-Delayed-action divorces (“Hollywood Romance Group”) had highly romantic courtships, but their affection declined considerably over the first few years of marriage. They were labeled “delayed-action” divorcers because they stayed married for at least seven years, long after the passion that led them to marry had dissipated.
-Women who sense future problems while they are courting generally find out after they are married that their concern was well-founded.
-Whether a marriage will be happy or whether it is headed for the divorce court can be foretold from the courtship.
-Couples who are passionately enamored as newlyweds are likely to divorce.
-Men with traits stereotyped as “feminine” make better husbands.
-The extent of differences in tastes and ideas among couples does not predict divorce. Some couples bury their concerns over such differences; others brood over them. Those who brood are more likely to divorce.
-Anxiety, moodiness, and emotional swings in the wife or the husband do not preordain divorce, but they are related to unhappiness in marriage.
-The birth of a child transforms couples’ lifestyles, but it does not change the feelings husbands or wives have about each other.
-All marriages, even those that are happy in the long run, show declines over the first two years in marriage in the following categories: sex, overt displays of affection, and leisure activities spent together.
It’s a really great article. But everything you read there, you could also have read here. I’m just sayin’.
My biggest takeaway is that if the courtship is smooth, the marriage will be as well.
Please share your thoughts about any of the central premises of this piece. Do you disagree because you have this one friend who met her soulmate, married him in six weeks and they’re still together twenty years later and they have sex twice a day? If so, God help you.
henriette says
A man in love might want to propose as quickly as possible but he should have the wisdom and self-control to override that desire. Love is one thing, but a loving marriage is something else entirely. It’s entirely possible – I might argue, probable – to fall in love with someone who would be a terrible spouse for you. Taking time to really know a partner and to ensure that he/she really sees you is the best idea.
I would argue that, say, over 35 years-old, people need less than 2 years pre-proposal because they know themselves better than do the young’uns.
rich says
What about if the man is 35 snd the woman is 24. They moved in together after a month. Engaged at 5 months and married 10 months later?
Evan Marc Katz says
I’d say – without knowing much more – that this is a recipe for divorce.
Patti pauley says
Not true. My husband and I married 5 months after first dating. Celebrating our eighth anniversary this year in September. We are each other’s rocks, and best friends. It all depends on the couple. Everyone is different, and doesn’t fall into the typical sterotype.
Evan Marc Katz says
You are the exception to the rule. I give the rules.
my honest answer says
I totally agree that the biggest indicator of a happy marriage is lack of drama. I keep trying to get across to my readers that if you are with the right person, there IS no drama. They want to see you as much as you want to see them. You’re not hanging out by the phone waiting for them to throw you crumbs of affection, nor are you fighting / breaking up / reuniting. A lot of people mistake passion and strong feelings for love. It’s good to have some research to back it up though, thanks Evan!
Laya says
Evan, I just wanted to clarify that I didn’t intend to shoot down your premise that couples should wait. I just didn’t agree that it should be so rigid…as in only after 3 years. In this article the average time for happy marriages is 2 years and 4 months but that also includes couples that fall in the range before that time and after. In the end, I agree with 2-3 years as good time frame.
I also agree that this article confirms many of your observations and beliefs that you have been putting forth all along.
Laya says
By the way, I believe the article indicated that it was 2 years and 4 months to marry. In your article you stated 2-3 years before you get engaged. I believe in 2-3 years before one marries (not engaged) is a good time frame…maybe that is splitting hairs but just saying.
Daisy says
1.5 years ago a girl friend of mine got engaged after only 3 months of dating her boyfriend. They were 24yo, the guy was caucasian and my friend was southeast asian, she couldnt even speak English well at the time. They seemed to be so in love and so into each other despite the language difficulties on my friend’s part (I wonder how they actually communicate important stuffs to each other!). She didn’t know the guy at all before they started dating. 1 month after the engagement they got married. The guy even converted to the girl’s religion. As of now they’re still together and they look like they’re still a happy couple. They havnt passed the 2-3yr mark as Evan had suggested, so I hope their marriage will last a lifetime. We shall see if they can be the extreme exception to the 2yr suggested rule.
Heather says
@Henriette,
I’m over 35 and I definitely might need 2-3 years before my current guy proposes, and that’s only if he’s still around, mind you.
I really got burned pretty badly in my marriage, and have seen some marriages break up badly, lately, and that’s really made me very gun-shy about marrying again. I’m not too sure that I want to put myself out there like that and then out of the blue, bam, broken heart, debt, and divorce, once again. That sounds about as appealing as a root canal, if you ask me.
And even with courting someone for 2-3 years, how do you really, truly know for sure that they’re not going to bail on you because they want someone younger, or just randomly decide they don’t love you so they want out?
Sure, I know “myself” very well and have learned alot about what to avoid, what to watch for, etc. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to totally know my partner, and maybe never will. And that, is what scares the ever-loving poop out of me.
Karmic Equation says
“And even with courting someone for 2-3 years, how do you really, truly know for sure that they’re not going to bail on you because they want someone younger, or just randomly decide they don’t love you so they want out?”
You can never know until you live it. There are no guarantees in life or in love.
That said, you can increase your odds of being in long lasting relationship by following Evan’s advice:
1) Prioritize compatibility over chemistry. It’s better to have a 10 relationship with a “7” guy than a “4” relationship with a “10” guy. — This is because after 2-3 years, it will NOT be chemistry that keeps the two of you bonded, it will be because of compatibility.
2)Date 2-e years before becoming engaged – This is to ensure that you’re not getting engaged due to chemistry, but rather from true understanding and love for each other.
3) Live together for an agreed amount of time before getting married – Visiting each other’s homes, even for extended periods of time is NOT the same as living together.
There’s a lot more to a lasting relationship that the 3 points above, of course, but these three points will help you increase the odds that you will choose the right guy. And the right guy, by definition, won’t leave you.
Don’t let FEAR dictate how you live.
Carol Smith says
I lived together with my second and it was really stupid, I do not believe in living together it doesnt make for a good relationship. God is the only one that helps keep a relationship together, If both of the people love the Lord and go to church and then help each other and make sure that each other is looked after and they also pray for their spouse then the relationship will work out.
SS says
I meant to get back to you on the other thread, but it’s probably better to do so here since this one is actually on the topic of time of engagement.
Coincidentally, I found the same article when I went to do more research on Huston’s study of length of time of dating before marriage. Interesting stuff!
However, like Laya said, I don’t see that the article proved or disproved anything about the ideal time of engagement, nor did it indicate anything about the ages of the couples involved, which to me makes a huge difference. The only true negatives stated in this research and others (John Molloy) were that those couples that married within a year of knowing each other were more likely to divorce and those that waited longer than three years to marry were more likely to divorce. No argument from me on any of those factors.
Also, if we were talking about a bunch of 20-somethings — the age range in which the majority of Americans do marry — I totally agree that they should date two years before thinking about engagement.
But there is nothing really conclusive anywhere (yet) to say that the marriage that took place when a never-married 30+ year-old guy waited two years to propose and one year to marry is more likely to last longer than the marriage that took place when the never-married 30+ guy proposed after a year and then married a year later. Everything I’ve seen so far has indicated that longterm marital success is most likely to happen if the couple dates between 1-3 years, which would include the couple where the guy who proposed after a year married within the next year.
My only point is this… like you said, different strokes for different folks. If a woman in her 30s, especially her late 30s, is dating a never-married man in his mid-late 30s and she doesn’t want to wait more than a year (give or take a few months) for a proposal, she’s not necessarily doing anything hasty or making the wrong choice. She might be making the right choice in certain instances. While we women need to understand how men feel and behave (the main reason I was attracted to your blog in the first place when I was dating), we also have to look out for our own needs. My desires for family were ultimately more important to my long-term well-being than being the cool fun girl who gave a not-yet-committed man more space than I felt necessary so he could make up his mind. I broke up with a man at the six-month mark for that very reason… because he said he didn’t see himself marrying for at least three years.
And guess what? He’s 42 now and still unmarried. Meanwhile, six months later, I met my husband, who was on the same page about marriage and family as I was. I think I made the right choice letting the first guy go because I was able to sense that he was overly hesitant about marriage and he was not a good bet for me to wait for for two years. Because it’s a lot harder to break up with a guy after 2-3 years when you feel you’ve “invested” something in the relationship versus cutting the cord earlier when you get the clear sense that he’s not interested in marrying you, or in marrying at all. I know too many never-married 40-something-year-old childless-not-by-choice women who were too cool, laid back and patient with the wrong men, and they admit that they would have been better off having a much shorter timeline in their 30s for a proposal.
I know you’ll write that off as just a couple of exceptional anecdotes, but my anecdote isn’t any less valuable than someone else’s anecdote about waiting two years to propose before marriage, and only time will tell if one set of marriages is longer-lasting than another set of marriages. Or maybe it ultimately won’t make much of a difference at all, meaning those 30-something women who don’t want to wait longer than a year for a proposal and hope to marry within two years of meeting a man are making a smart choice for themselves.
Different strokes for different folks!
CalGirl says
@SS#7
I completely agree with you. I am almost 35, never married and childless. In my 20s or early 30s I was in no rush and even didn’t accept some proposals (I would be divorced by now if I would have accepted any of them).
But my biological clock began to click loudly 1.5 years ago. Exactly one year ago I began to date a man (35) that the first couple of months seemed to want children and get married, so I accepted to date him even when I had the feeling he was not the one but was very good, but months later changed his tune and said he didn’t want children after all, and that he wanted to pursuit some goals before getting married and that would take him 3-5 years. After 8 months of dating it was obvious that it was not what I wanted, and also we were not really suited for each other (what I ignored in my desperation).
After breaking with him I accepted some other dates, just to be disappointed of the guys in general and thinking that my best shot for the future would be to go to a bank of donors in 2 or 3 years and be a single mom, that it is better to be single than in a bad relationship.
But suddenly and almost by chance I met this wonderful guy, have been dating for 2 months already, and I got the feeling that he is really what I was waiting for, based on my 15 years of dating history. It is drama free, and we have the same views about life and what we want.
I don’t want to rush to marry him and I am willing to wait 2 years to get married (I cannot wait longer than that) if that is what it takes, but i am glad that I let the other guy walk and not invest more time than I did, and also to be “picky” and wait for the right one.
Kate says
I completely agree With you. As an over 40 gal, I know what I am not willing to wait for… and a man my age should know himself well enough to be able to commit. 1 YR of dating and 6-12 months before marriage.
jeremy says
It’s funny how we use (or mis-use) the word “commitment.” Certainly, in marriage, there are many wonderful promises made by both spouses – promises to love, honor, obey (?). Promises of fidelity, of mutual love and respect. Yet those are only promises, not commitments. They can be broken with no legal consequence to either partner. The only commitment made in marriage is the commitment of provisioning from the higher-earning spouse to the lower-earning spouse. This commitment stands, even if the marriage should end, even if all the promises are broken.
Many promises are made in marriage, but the only commitment is made by the higher-earning spouse. There is no “commitment” made by the lower-earning spouse. Only promises. When a person asks of his or her partner “why won’t he COMMIT”, my usual question is who is the one doing the committing, and what are you committing in return?
Why is this relevant to your post? Well, you posted that you think a man should know you (and himself) well enough to offer “commitment” after about 1 year. I found that interesting. Would your opinion differ, do you think, if you were the higher-earning partner vs. the lower-earning partner, or do you think that factor would have no bearing on your decision? After all, if you were the lower-earning partner and the marriage should dissolve, you would be entitled to cash and prizes. If you were the higher-earning partner, you would be the one to have to PAY the cash and prizes. In such a circumstance, do you think you might want time and experience to help you be sure?
pat says
Your use of the term “cash and prizes” in regards to a divorce settlement says a lot about you. The fact that some men are deadbeat dads (that term didn’t synthesize out of thin air, btw) shows you that the women or lower earning partners don’t always get “cash and prizes” after divorce. In fact, women bear the brunt of raising the kids, whether you are divorced or married and that takes a toll on them financially, emotionally, and socially. Maybe think about that, before you tote the benefits they reap after divorce.
Heather says
SS,
Exactly. Different strokes for different folks. I had dated my now ex-husband for about a year and a half before we got engaged, married seven months later, and were separated, one month before our third wedding anniversary. We totally rushed into it, I never should have told him I wanted to get married sooner rather than later, and I never should have married a man whose family pushed him to marry me, for all the wrong reasons.
If I ever do feel comfortable enough to remarry, some day, it’s going to take a lot of time and commitment. There are no guarantees in this world and I know that full well, but I want to make sure I’ve really covered my bases and am making a very informed leap of faith, if you will. And that’s IF I decide I’ll remarry. At this point, watching so many trainwreck marriages, staying single forever sounds pretty darn good.
SS says
Heather @8…
And I see no problem with your point of view! 🙂 I think that’s the overall point I’m trying to make… we’re all approaching this relationship thing from different perspectives and different pasts. Most of my friends are never-married later 30-somethings with no kids (I was early 30s with no kids), so the mindset about marriage and timeframes might have been different. I noticed as well that divorced men I dated were much more reluctant to get back into a marriage mindset, even if they knew they wanted to remarry. I understood that as well, so I took that into account when I was looking at the type of men I wanted to date.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I totally support your point of view as well… enjoy your singlehood! Or a non-marriage! 😀
Fusee says
First time commenting! Evan, I’ve been reading your excellent blog for a few weeks now, and I have only one thing to say: SPOT ON!
@SS (#7): “Or maybe it ultimately won’t make much of a difference at all, meaning those 30-something women who don’t want to wait longer than a year for a proposal and hope to marry within two years of meeting a man are making a smart choice for themselves.”
* What makes me comment for the very first time is the topic of time, which is a much debated one and that hits close to home for myself. Hey, I’m a 33 yo woman who is not going to take much more then 12-18 months to reach a decision for marriage with her boyfriend. See I did not say “waiting for a proposal”, but reaching a mutual decision that will be wise for the both of us.
I agree with Evan regarding his recommendation on avoiding making the most important decision of your life based on unreliable information such as feelings and wishful thinking. I also agree with that part of your comment, SS, because, well, I’m that woman! The thing is, time is important, but what is truly important is what you do with it. You can spend one year, two years, or even ten years dating, courting, being engaged, and yet miss the whole point of the purpose of that special time. People spend years in relationships talking about random stuff, watching movies, going on fun trips, and if all these are an essential part of dating, romance, and getting one another, this must be secondary to evaluate one another’s goals, values, characters, relationship skills, and ability to handle life as a team. Oh, and grow the missing skills and actively working on making compromises when needed for a future together.
Now, how long does it take to meet, experience attraction, move towards discussions around relationship goals, grow in intimacy, get to know one another’s character, values, communication skills and ability to make and hold a commitment? It depends on the people! Surveys and statistics sure are valid but collect everything and present them as an average, so making your specific situation conforms statistics will not garantee that you will fall on the right side! Marriage is not about numbers, but about character.
Since I’ve figured out my part and decided that I was going to only let myself be attracted and interested in someone who would have figured out his part as well, I do not need years to make a decision. I will also not wait around investing the most productive years of my life with someone who might not be on the same page. However it does take some time to grow in intimacy, in trust, in love to have these conversations and become emotionally ready, and once you know, then it is wise to wait for a little bit longer to confirm your decision. There is no need to rush, and one year is to my opinion the very minimum time to dedicate to this purpose.
So here is my take on the debate between “but I do not want to wait around, I need to know NOW – on the first date – if he wants to get married” and “the whole process takes 2-3 years”: there is a middle way, ladies! No need to push an agenda on the first date, or even the second or third. It’s inconsiderate if you can’t even give someone an hour or two of your time that would not necessarily “pay off”. But there is no need to “go with the flow” and “wait for a proposal” either. Invest the first few months to investigate, make sure the relationship progresses organically, and if it stalls, be realistic and open to let it go. A relationship that does not grow, dies. And you should see the potential for growth toward marriage well before the one-year mark.
Thanks for the wonderful advice, Evan!
Jill says
Relationships do have a shelf life and expiration date but that does not mean a whirlwind engagement is wrong or that waiting 3 years is right. Most divorced couples admit that the things that drove them apart were the things that they questioned from the beginning. You should commit when it instinctively feels right and if that ‘right’ feeling usually feels ‘wrong’ then you should wait. People who are on the fence about marriage and how much time is appropriate might want to look at their situation as though they were purchasing a home (yes, I promise it will make sense..). There is a similar equation in the level of commitment and investment. Most of us take out 30 year loans. Compare your answers: did you shop around and do your homework? Will you be happy with it as it is now 30 years from now? Does it require any updating/remodeling in order to suit your current needs before purchase or will you need to make some major changes? Is it missing any features that you may be unhappy with later? Will it accomodate hosting family, friends, get togethers and make you proud?… You get my point. Foundations of relationships are usually set from the beginning and be prepared for some ‘settling’ and understand that you will need to make repairs, budget for upkeep, work hard to maintain regularly and once in a while add a fresh coat of paint. I am currently with my boyfriend of 2.5 years and while he has some personality challenges, I can see myself making the commitment (after taking time to get to know him) and that there is a value on our investment in each other that will pay off for years to come (and I am here doing my research because as I want to qualify my huge emotional investment with confidence!)
Honey says
Jake and I fell into the opposite camp. We dated for 2 years, moved in together, lived together for another 3 years before he proposed. We eloped within two months of the proposal, though we didn’t tell friends/family and are having a traditional wedding a year after the proposal. So as far as most people we know are concerned, we’ll have been together 6 years by the time we are married.
Though honestly the tax implications of our marriage seem so sucky I would rather that we hadn’t done it. Since we are not having children it doesn’t seem necessary, and after 6 years we certainly know how devoted we are to one another. But I guess I’ll wait to see the tax return before allowing my frustration to become official 😉
Heather says
Jill,
Spot on!!! And you raise a good point, are folks going to be happy with things “as is” in 30 years? That’s what scares me the most about remarriage. Am I going to wake up in 30 years and have potential husband #2 go, nah, I don’t love you anymore, etc. Me, I can easily see myself being fine with a good, life-long marriage, on MY part because I really did want that. However, society being as it is now, people bail on a hair trigger now, from marriages, without warning, without working it out first or at least trying. That is my biggest fear is that it seems like people can more easily commit to a mortgage, than a marriage.
I just don’t know that statistics or anything can really prove or not prove or show what marriages will work, and what will not. My aunt and uncle seemed to have a pretty typical marriage, been together 35+ years, and suddenly, my uncle decides tht my aunt is not what he wants, and bails out. Hello!!!
@SS: why thank you! It’s refreshing to talk to someone who doesn’t tell me, “Oh you’ll be fine, just get over it.” How do you do that? Isn’t it better to be single than sorry and jump into something that’s going to burn you even more than you were already burned, before? I even told my parents that if they want some in-laws and kids, they better talk to my younger brother and leave me out of it, LOL. Growing old with a dog as a life partner just doesn’t seem like such a bad option. At least you know the dog won’t leave you for another owner!!! 😛
Marie says
The examples in my life are so random. I dated a guy for 8 completely drama-free years before we got married. The reason our courtship was so long was becasue we were both earning advanced degrees and purely logistical issues. We divorced after 11 years of marriage.
My parents, on the other hand, dated for 3 months before my dad proposed. My mom said no and dumped him. However, he won her back (after a dramatic fight with M&M candies). They were married within 6 months of meeting. Next year, they celebrate the 40th anniversary of their marriage, which has been seemingly content, drama-free, and sickingly passionate every year I can remember.
While I like to play it safe and follow conventional wisdom and research, I do think that to some extent, love is a crap shoot.
Susan McCabe says
BEST ANSWER here! I’m sorry there is no time limit on when to get married and when not to. Even when you date someone for YEARS doesn’t mean you’re going to stay married. My parents met and were married 3 months later. They divorced after 25 and were STILL best friends and had breakfast with eachother every day.
Marriage is a crap shoot, no matter how much time you investigate. I met my husband, we moved in after 3 months, married after a year. We were married for 14 years before we divorced. I don’t regret ANY of it.
helene says
I agree that for younger couples (under 30) more time is needed before committing – at that age you have less relationship experience, are less able to assess a potential partner and most importnatly, you yourself are growing and changing and do not yet know who you are, who you want to become or what qualities are most importnat to you in a mate. The older we are, the more we know ourselves and what we want. I also would say that for young couples the highest chance of marital success will come if you marry someone who is ADAPTABLE – a lot of thingsd change in life, new circumstances present themselves and the ability of two young people to adapt and grow and allow each other to grow is key. For older couples, it is more important to pick someone who is aligned with you in their goals and habits, becuase neither of you id likely to change so much. Both of you are likely to be less adaptable, so someone who already meshes well with you is what you need to find.
On the subject of “progressing smoothly without drama” whilst i would agree that couples of this disposition are more likely to have stable marriages, unfortunately this simply will not work for certain personality types. Some people NEED a certain level of drama and passion to feel alive, and whilst it is true that their relationships are more at risk of failure, nevertheless these are the relationships that they should pursue because they are the only ones that will work for them. A stable but drama-less relationship would be pointless to these people, so it really is irrelevant that it would last a long time becuase they wouldn’t enjoy it anyway!
helene says
Sorry for the double post but I wanted to add something – controversially,I would like to say that I do not necessarily agree that so much importance should be placed on the LENGTH of a marriage when judging its success. There is more to a good marriage than simply its duration – some marriages can be good, worthwhile but not lifelong. You wouldn’t judge anything else in this way “Yeah, it was a great movie, it was really really LONG”! So why do we place so much importance on this one aspect of marriage? Weirdly, all marriages that end before one person dies are somehow classed as “failures” and those that last a lifetime are “successes” – I don’t think this is a helpful way to view things.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Helene: “Why do we place so much importance on this one aspect of marriage? Weirdly, all marriages that end before one person dies are somehow classed as “failures” and those that last a lifetime are “successes”. This isn’t controversial. It’s inane.
The nature of marriage is a lifelong commitment, signed on paper, witnessed by families, in the eyes of God. If you leave your marriage, it doesn’t mean that the entire relationship is invalidated or that you’re a bad person or that there’s something wrong with you. But ultimately, while it was once a successful relationship, it’s termination signifies it as a failure.
The very nature of marriage is that it’s supposed to last. The very nature of movies are that they’re supposed to end. The best marriages last until death do us part. The best movies, thankfully, do not. So while there’s a relevant point somewhere in here, this is a terrible metaphor to explain it.
Monica says
I think she meant the length of the courtship versus the length of the marriage. There is so much to be said by putting time on dating without explanations of what should happen during that time. Experiences together is the most logical way to examine a couples readiness to progress into an engagement and a marriage. Many experiences take about four seasons to tackle; some may not present themselves until years later. Travel, live together, go through normal life disappointments, take care of each other when you’re sick, see each other’s bad side, meet each other’s families and friends, get through holidays, examine how you spend money, then decide how you feel about these experiences being a part of the rest of your life. Engagement can surely happen during these experiences and some of them may not happen until the. When marriage happens, just know it is a bond between two people and does not require the judgment of others to be successful.
Martha says
So what on earth should people say when they get married?
Do you promise to love and to cherish him/her as long as the marriage lasts?
Crikey! Some of you lot are so negative. 😀
amy says
Evan…I think your thinking’s rather rigid on this point. At some point you’re going to have to accept that fewer and fewer people share this view of marriage, or carry a sense of shame and failure about divorce.
Why do people continue to get married if that’s the case? Well — more & more often, they don’t. They live together (or not), they don’t involve the state or religion. Some people do it — I kid you not — for the party and the presents, and out of a sense that they shouldn’t be left out of the fun. I think it’s poor arithmetic, but people do love a party and a fancy party dress.
I don’t know about you, but when I married, I was under no illusion that marriage is forever. I hoped very much that marriage would see us through our children’s childhood. I thought that was important (and still do). But after 20 years people change, and they don’t always change in tandem, and I didn’t expect I’d want to be with anyone longer than that.
I loved all my boyfriends very much, lived with one of them for 7 years, but there’s not one of them I’d want to be with today. I got married, in the end, because I thought it made sense for having children — but honestly it made no difference. All it did was make things more expensive and harrowing when it was time to split. People and institutions no longer expect that parents are married or that the people in a family have the same last name. (In fact I’m asked routinely when I sign my kid up for something: “Same last name?”) I recognize that varies by region, but really, I am far from coasts in nowheresville, and nobody’s expecting that the animals go two by two. I’d say lifelong marriages are very much the exception.
Is it sad? I think the way we treat children after divorce is sad. Really, adults are very selfish in how they behave afterwards, and there’s a lot of bad-faith talk about how resilient children are. If parents were more responsible, more inclined to remember that they are parents, and that the children have to come first? I don’t think there’d be any problem. Apart from that…my dear, when the music ends, the dance is over.
Liz says
Amy, i’ve never been married, but i loved your answer! Its not a popular view, and some would say its defeatist. I think its very mature, and logical.
Katherine Wakefield says
For me marriage is like dating. Dating is a journey not a race! Slow down and enjoy the scenery. Get a feel for the surroundings. Check out if you like your new environment! There are no prizes for getting to the finish line first!
Heather says
@ Amy,
But see, your argument is precisely why I am increasingly gun-shy of getting married again. If a guy doesn’t want to be with me for the rest of my life, then why bother? And along your line of logic, if relationships aren’t meant to last, then why bother with those, either?
I really am spooked by people who don’t believe in lifelong commitments, because it almost comes across as selfish in some aspects. “Well, I don’t care that you want to spend the rest of your life with me, I want to do, what I want to do.” I am not saying that you are selfish, but I am pointing out that the mindset can come across as such.
Maybe I really am better off alone so I won’t get my heart broken once more, by more folks who think like that. Jeez, I’m becoming more depressed as I read this thread!!!!
DinaStrange says
@amy post#18.
maybe in your case since you already decided that marriage doesn’t last you brought the end of it by yourself. as in fulfilling the prophecy. because what you believe, actually comes true…so if you didn’t believe it was going to last, it didn’t last.
DinaStrange says
I think marriage for life can work. If two people are clear, communicate and share similar core values, it can last. Sure passion might go away but deeper bond comes instead. Regarding kids. I think it’s absolutely necessary for kids especially in our society to have a loving family with both parents together. It will make the kids stronger to face the world and perpetuate the same attitude towards their future marriages. I am studying psychology and more often than not a lot of psychological deviations in adults are stemming from bad childhoods, broken families and issues that parents had. It’s almost like a plague being carried on by kids from the parents. It’s time to stop the infection from spreading.
amy says
@Dina — if I’d been in the self-fulfilling prophecy dept, I’d still be married now. My kid’s not grown yet. We divorced because — well, not to put too fine a point on it, my ex lied about some serious things and turned out not to be interested in, maybe wasn’t capable of, being a partner and a parent. But he’s only one of several significant relationships I’ve had in my life, and I certainly wouldn’t just most by him. An outlier for sure.
As for kids: I agree that an intact family is best, if only because it reduces instability. But I don’t agree that the parents have to be married in order to bring the kids up well together. That just takes being well-behaved grownups who put the children first.
@Heather, then you need to find someone who doesn’t believe that people change significantly as they get older. If a man said to me, “I want to get married to someone for the rest of my life,” I’d say, “You probably want someone else.” I’m a markedly different person, in many ways, than I was even ten years ago. A few months ago I did a big reorganization and weed-out in my library — and frankly, it was kind of depressing. Like a mausoleum of old interests. They’re very good books and I may go back to them, but those stories and ideas aren’t what’s important to me now, maybe never again. I’m still great friends with some old boyfriends, but I have more experience now, see them differently now, in many ways understand them better now. Would I want to be with them? No. I’m glad their wives want to be married to them, but if they left I wouldn’t try to take their places.
If a man is as active as I am, and I don’t want to be with someone who can’t keep up & play (and he wouldn’t want it, either, not really) — he’ll change too. Could something like that last forever? Eh, maybe. I wouldn’t count on it.
So why do it?
Because it’s fun. Because loving is better than not loving. Because there’s nothing better in life than the connection when it’s there. Because I’m tough enough to take the hit and get up again when it’s over. Do you need more reason than that? My whole life has been mediated by men, by love affairs. I think that’s grand.
nathan says
I don’t see why this has to be an either/or discussion. I share some of the concerns Heather has about the flimsiness of many relationships these days. Some folks do want to have everything on their terms, and aren’t terribly willing to work through difficulties because they believe it should always been fun and enjoyable. On the other hand, what I hear in Helene and Amy’s comments is a sense of realism. Over the course of a lifetime, people can radically change, and their goals/desires can become wildly incompatible. I can think of examples in my own extended family of couples that stayed married for 40, 50 years, because it was expected. Because of the “contract” aspect. The longevity really isn’t that impressive, nor a sign of success in my opinion.
Failure, to me, is when lives become stagnant and people are living miserably. When people are choosing to stand far away from commitment out of fear and doubt, that’s pretty sad. And when people are staying together solely out of obligation (to family, to God, whatever), that’s sad too. I’m with Helene – success and failure need to be reconsidered.
Heather says
Good points, Dina.
My ex husband came from a very broken and violent home, and while I will not excuse him for one second, it certainly gives some context for his behavior and I really should have taken that more into account before I married him. I don’t think he ever knew how to have a healthy relationship, as he was violent also with his ex-fiance.
My current boyfriend and I are both from very healthy marriages, my folks are darn close to their 40th year together, and his folks I think have been married close to 45 years. He does not believe in divorce except in cases like mine where abuse was involved. However, he could be like my uncle and just suddenly bolt in 35 years, who knows? My uncle claimed he believed that marriage is for life, as well. It’s all well and good to say that it’s what you believe, but to actually “walk the walk” is very, very different.
Karl R says
Heather asked: (#20)
“if relationships aren’t meant to last, then why bother with those, either?”
A good meal can take hours to cook, and about 30 minutes to consume. Why does anybody bother to spend time cooking?
Most people cook because the pleasure the food brings them (and everyone else who eats it) is worth the effort. For many people, the process of cooking is enjoyable too.
Similarly, the pleasure of a relationship is frequently worth the effort, even when it’s clear from the beginning that it won’t last.
People come and go in my life. I enjoy them while they’re here.
Heather asked: (#20)
“If a guy doesn’t want to be with me for the rest of my life, then why bother?”
I agree that it’s foolish to enter a lifetime contract (marriage) with the intent of severing it later on. If that’s what one partner wants, keep it as a less formal arrangement.
I’m engaged. I intend to fulfill the “til death do you part” clause. But regardless of my intentions, I see three possible ways for the marriage to end: I’m a widower, I’m a divorcee, or I’m a corpse. Given our ages and the nature of our relationship, I’d put highest odds on widower, followed by divorcee.
All three of those endings suck. So I either have to accept that the end will suck, and enjoy the relationship from now ’til then, or I can avoid having relationships.
I’d rather accept the bad with the good.
Kristen says
Great post. I previously thought that a quick dating period then marriage was a great idea until I realized that even when you love someone and he/she loves you, there is a lot to learn about someone. I’ve been with my bf for over a year now and we’ve been learning to negotiate, learning what is important to each other, learning what pushes each others’ buttons, etc. Each time we plan a trip or negotiate holidays I’ve realized that jumping into a marriage would have made these negotiations much harder because if we jumped into the marriage and had different situations pop up at us, it would have been such a surprise, because I think that I would have been so used to everything being “perfect”. Even in good relationships, communicating takes practice.
Ellen says
The thought of living with someone again, even unofficially, give me hives, but for those ready to take the plunge again at least unofficially, be aware that there are now pre-nups for people just planning to live together indefinitely. See uslegalforms.com
You can amend them to add powers of attorney for illness and your will can be attached, so there is no confusion.
So, really, fully armed legally, there is no reason to live alone, miserably. I mean if you don’t want to, if you meet someone special.
Vicki says
Well, I believe Arielle Ford met her husband and they got engaged within a few weeks after they met (at least, I think that’s what it says in her book). They are still married.
I read a study somewhere (wish I could find the link…) that researchers could predict the success or failure of a marriage based on how couples interact together. If they talk to each other and seem to enjoy talking and laughing together, they are likely to stay together. If they don’t look at each other or address each other much, or one partner is sort of cold-shouldering the other, then those couples usually divorce. The researchers were able to correlate the level of affectionate/friendly conversation with how likely the couples were to get divorced.
Most importantly, the risk of divorce correlates to whether or not the parents’ of the couple were divorced. If your bf’s parents don’t get along, or they divorced, or cheated on each other or whatever – a rocky relationship in his parents’ history doesn’t bode well for your relationship with your bf. Observe carefully how his father treats his mother — that is how he will treat you!
Christopher says
@Marie: “While I like to play it safe and follow conventional wisdom and research, I do think that to some extent, love is a crap shoot. ”
That’s an awesome quote :).
@Evan: Loved your response to Helene. Reading some of the other comments, it scares (and depresses) me how some people view marriage. Date if you want to enjoy a temporary experience, but the fundamental basis of marriage is life-long commitment.
Spunky says
I know of a guy who proposed to his girlfriend on the secomd date,lasted for three months,5 weeks later meets anothet girl moves in with her after 2weeks he got engaged to her that lasted 5months he walked on her he lovef her but she wasnt right one for him,4weeks after he meets another girl moves in with her after 2 weeks,proposes to her after living with her for 2 weeks,got married 8 months later,they have been married for nearly a year now apparently very very happy, shes a dream come true for him. This is how i see it: they met, dated, moved in together, got engaged and got married within 9 months. This is their second marriage for both.
Margo says
I know this older couple. She’s 50 or close to it, he’s a few years younger. Both have been married before. They’ve been dating exclusively for 2 years and 7 months now, and yes, she would like to get married to him.
From what I am reading and hearing, some from personal friends, is that if a man hasn’t married a woman and it’s been over two years, it’s likely he won’t. I’m also hearing that in the happiest marriages, it doesn’t take the man over 2 years to propose. And this particular man is not working on a degree, he’s established in his career and not looking for another/better job.
Rachel says
First, a smooth courtship in and off itself is not an indicator of a smooth marriage. There could be other reasons the courtships is smooth, such as keeping up an act to marry for money, wanting a spouse and hiding your true self, etc. Second, while differences in tastes or ideas may not predict divorce, it depends on the specifics. Generally, differences will predict a certain degree of unhappiness on the part of at least one partner, and the fact they haven’t divorced doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. Commonalities of IQ, depth, and character are much better indicators of a long-term marriage that is happy, fulfilling, and real. By ‘real’, I mean not a union of need and simply making it work because one is rich and the other is broke; or one person is much younger and doesn’t have the experience to know what’s good for them, but the other one certainly should!
Anonymous says
Sort of did the marry for money thing… except, I met someone else and realized I didn’t want to marry for money at all and that the whole thing was stupid.
Em says
You forgot to include that many more highly educated individuals do not get married as quickly due to financial reasons. Many parents today do not contribute financially to their children’s weddings. Also since the bachelor’s degree is the new high school diploma many people are playing for longer periods of time because they simply have more school to attend and do not feel it is responsible to be married as young as previous generations have been because divorce rates have been relatively high in recent decades.
Sparkling Emerald says
Engaged after six months, married after 10 months, heartbroken & S2B divorced after 23 years of marriage. I see several bullet points that applied to our situation.
Women who sense future problems while they are courting generally find out after they are married that their concern was well-founded.
BINGO ! Wished I had listed to my first gut feeling ! A few communication problems that I wrote off as a “Venus & Mars” thing. I sensed a tad bit of “little boyishness” in him. Also, putting his leisure activities with his buds over me. I dismissed the immaturity as him just needing to find the right woman to inspire him to grow up. He did grow up in the career sense that he got a “real job” due to his desire to have a family and support us. But, the little boy in him never wanted to come home after playing with his friends. (he had leisure pursuits in sports that I considered dangerous, I was to scared to participate with him at the level he desired) I would ask to make plans with him, he would put me off until he checked with his buds. I started to feel like his back up plan, not his first choice. If I’m ever in another relationship, I want to see that REVERSED, when his buds call to do something, I want him to check with ME, and get back to THEM. I thought by giving him all the space he needed to come and go as he pleased, that I was doing the right thing. In fact, in future relationships, I won’t make any demands on time spent together, but I will lean back and OBSERVE, how much time he voluntarily spends with me, vs how much time he devotes to other people & pursuits. I won’t nag a man into making me a priority, BUT, If he doesn’t do that on his own, I’m GONE !
Couples who are passionately enamored as newlyweds are likely to divorce.
Despite his in ordinate amount of time with his bro’s, (I spent that time doing fun “girly things” so I wasn’t MISERABLE over it, in fact I initially liked having “my space” as well) when we were together it was HOT, HOT, HOT. In fact, I would say our newly wed lovey-dovey period was unusually long, (still enjoying wild monkey love at the “seven year itch” point) Perhaps absence made our hearts grow fonder, but eventually his perpetual absenteeism made me feel resentful, and my fear of participating with him in his dangerous sports, he started holding against me. He would NOT do a low key version so that I could participate with him.
I doubt I’ll ever to down that road (or that aisle ) again, but I sure do hope that I never get so thunderstruck again as to get engaged at six months, and married less than a year.
Barb miller says
There is some one I know that dated a girl for 8 moths..then on 9 month got married on 11/2/13.i would like opinions …I think that is way to early and each have children n their high teens
Julio says
I believe in hearing all suggestions, comments, stories, and anything else that may bring wisdom. I have done my own analysis of many relationship books that I read after under going a series of hard times with the person I wanted to marry. Just recently I made a conclusion and I believe that just because you love someone does not mean you should marry them. If you are NOT married yet, you still have an option to break the courtship. Isn’t that why we enter courtships in the first place? You learn to know the person before marriage to then make a WISE decision (not an emotional decision) to see if the both of you should get married. I am not the feminine type man which one of the bullet points agrees that feminine type men tend to be better husbands, so I need a companion whom can be patient with me. Obviously I do my part and treat her as fragile glass. What I can say is that all relationships will take hard work to make a happy marriage, but if we find the right person, the work will be much less. I finally found a person whom is fit for me and we have an incredible relationship. I now at 29 believe in love again And that there does exist a better person for you. From my long list of books I recommend: Making Great Decisions by TD Jakes Good Luck to you all!
Ava Price says
My parents only dated for 3-4 months before they married, and barely knew each other before dating. There was almost no engagement period. They have been happily married for 21 years.
Reading Gal says
Several good points here, but I disagree that a courtship of four years or longer automatically signals doubts about the other person. Why the rush? People don’t turn into pumpkins if they fail to get married in X number of years. Also, maybe the couple has other reasons for waiting besides doubt. Reading Guy and I were in a relationship for five years before we got married. We waited mainly because we started dating relatively young and wanted to be more financially stable before we tied the knot.
Caitlin says
You write, “My biggest takeaway is that if the courtship is smooth, the marriage will be as well.”
I think it would be more conservative to estimate that “if the courtship is smooth, it is likely that the marriage will be as well.”
Your original language sounds prophetic.
Thanks, C
Corrinne says
Random question. but how did you add your photo to your posts on here?
twinkle says
I think u have to set up an account at Gravatar.com. Merry Christmas~
DV says
Yep. It sounds like common sense, because it is, but relationships that have a lack of drama and are relaxed in their pace tend to work. Happy couples who are in love also don’t break up and then get back together. They stay together. Too much drama. I’ve seen that before, everyone seems to think it’s romantic that they got back together……..nope.
Two people get together, they date, after a couple of years or so they really already know they want to get married, they get engaged when they already know they can afford it, they plan and arrange their wedding over the course of a year or so, perhaps move in together shortly before the wedding (you need a relationship underneath you before you get into the domestic grind, because it’s a killer), then get married, then buy a house and start thinking about children.
You cheat and shortcut that formula at your peril. Your dating and courtship periods should not be measured in months nor should they be interspersed with breakups.
I can’t count the number of weddings I’ve been to where all the red flags came up – couples who had only dated for a few months before getting engaged, had only dated for a few months before moving in, overt displays of public affection almost as if they had to validate their relationship to themselves and everyone else, women who turn instantly into bridezillas where they get the pinterest page and start putting all kinds of crap on it, I’ve seen it all. They have a tendency to head rather rapidly to the divorce court. Hopefully, the couple sees the light and calls their engagement off before it gets to marriage or heaven-forbid, children.
I’m also mighty suspicious of long engagements of a couple of years or more. It really doesn’t take that long to get a wedding arranged. If you get engaged and you can’t afford to get married, well, you shouldn’t have got engaged because you aren’t ready to be married and the wedding might even need to be delayed causing even more stress. Marriage is a massive financial commitment and financials are probably the biggest causes of arguments and stress. Long engagements can also signify that the groom wants to delay it as long as possible.
RealityCheck says
Well years ago many men and women most of the time made their marriage work since both men and women had to really struggle to make ends meat, and now with so much more men and women Cheating these days is a very good reason why many marriages are failing today as i speak.
RealityCheck says
To Tom, well since your only kidding you should realize that we are living in different times today since most women nowadays really Can’t be faithful anymore these days which most of them are the real biggest Cheaters of them all. And most of the women of years ago were much more faithful to their husbands which many marriages did last so long. I was very faithful, committed, and loved my wife very much at the time which it wasn’t good enough for the low life loser that she turned out to be which is the real reason why i am divorced today. My aunt and uncle are now starting their 68th together, and it was really meant to be for them. Peace.
Henriette says
@RealityCheck – I’m sorry about your ex-wife. It sounds as though that was ~ understandably ~ a terribly hurtful experience. Women do cheat at higher rates now than, say, 50 years ago: probably bc having careers gives them more opportunities than when most women stayed home. Still, although your wife was unfaithful and wives are more likely to be unfaithful than they were in long-gone days, cheating wives are still in the minority.
You are not to blame for your ex-wife’s lack of integrity but you can certainly lessen the chances of this happening again in the future. 1. Improve your “picker.” Don’t go for a woman primarily because she’s hot or seems cool. Start with good character and drama-free, and work backwards from there. 2. Take the relationship at a slow but steady pace. If you are exclusive for at least 2 years before marrying, you’re more likely to know her true character than if you wed within a year. 3. Once married, continue to make her feel safe, heard and understood. If you follow these guidelines, you’re unlikely to be stuck with a cheater, again.
Karmic Equation says
Yes, you’re right RealityCheck.
It was much better when only the men cheated and the women couldn’t do anything about it.
What a lot of men are lamenting nowadays is that, giving the means (money and contraception), women cheat as often as men.
“In the old days”, she didn’t have the means, so she couldn’t cheat. And men could sleep with their secretaries with impunity and without giving much thought or effort to keeping his wife happy.
Nowadays, he has to DO something to keep her happy. As coming home every night is just not enough. How horrible to have such high expectations of men, to have to DO something to keep wifey happy? What has this world come to?
Kathleen says
Right on KE Yes …its dreadful that women are more empowered and don’t have to put up with unacceptable treatment!! LOL
FG says
Interesting thought! Guess they lived in cages with padlocks?
And THIS generation just now invented female infidelity? Righttttttt!
Henriette says
Oh @Tom10! You know I love you but please… stop being a jerk. RC is hurt and has come here trying to gain some understanding; it’s beneath a good guy like you to kick a man when he’s down. xo
Tom10 says
Ok, Henriette. I always respect your opinion so I’ll retract what I said and apologize to RealityCheck. Sometimes I write and post comments before really thinking. (But when people moan about the behavior of others it pushes my buttons, but you’re right it wasn’t necessary).
Moderator, is it possible to retract my last comment to RC?
Tom10 says
Thanks 🙂
Henriette says
Thank you, @Tom10. As a woman who has never cheated, I certainly don’t enjoy reading how women today have a hard time remaining faithful, so I understand how it feels to have buttons pressed by RC’s posts.
But Evan encourages us to cut others some slack. Honestly (and maybe I’m wrong), RC doesn’t strike me as one of the furious trolls who come here just to bait our host and tell us Western(ised) women that we’re whores; he sounds like a nice-enough guy who’s been hurt by a person he loved and trusted. I hope he’s able to find some support and information on this (or any) site that can help him feel better and make his way forward without holding this betrayal against future women.
Thoughtful, decent guys like you, Karl R, Gabriel, Adrian etc. have added many valuable insights to this blog and I’m grateful. I’ve learned from all of you and hope that some of the men who come here in good faith, rather than simply to lecture and rant, will feel like they too have gained a bit of understanding of and compassion for the opposite sex, too. If RC turns out to be an irate lambaster then we flame him. 🙂 But until then, it behooves us to treat him with kindness and respect.
I appreciate you withdrawing your comment, @Tom10. As always, you’re a classy guy whom I like and admire. <3 Happy Thanksgiving (from one non-American to another).
Tom10 says
@ Henriette
Some kind and thoughtful words there dear Henriette, as per all your comments. Thank you. It’s useful to be reminded to spread the kindness as it can make all the difference.
Happy Thanksgiving to you too 🙂 (that’s the first time I’ve ever said that!).
RealTruth says
Well years ago i would certainly say that most marriages lasted so very long since most couples were very faithful with one another which today most marriages do fail since many people are cheating more than ever now, and most of the women are at fault.
ThereisHOPE 2those whoBELIEVE says
Getting engaged or married doesn’t need to consider the lenght of time. I was once been into a 4yr relationship which turned into nightmare. Been waiting for him to propose but giving time for myself, an ultimatum to know if he’s really into marriage. After 4yrs all those fears I have happened. I left him & broke up with him after realizing being into the relationship will go nowhere. & i am very right with my decisions. I loved him more than anything else that my world was revolving to him yet as a woman we need to value ourselves. Without minding the hurt & pains it caused me, I decided to chose leaving him. But God is so good all the time coz when the time you were in pains, He sent me someone whom I unexpectedly came into my life. After a month of chatting he proposed to me, we met in person & now just waiting for my visa… can’t wait to finally have a life together. He is someone I imagined as I need in my life. Despite the headaches, God healed me completely & gave me a man who true my loves me so much & whom I love too. He’s my everything, my life. A month to go & we’ll be together & start a life I can call my own family… it’s not a matter of time of knowing someone but it’s a matter of being committed & have that true love. If someone loves a woman, he’s willing to do & give his best for her & i can’t really imagine God had finally answered my long time prayer. It’s a right choice & i know God is preparing something for us to be together… God bless everyone for what your heart’s desires. True love means making someone a priority & that’s how thankful I am now coz I felt so special in a way I deserve to…. <3 <3 <3
Evan Marc Katz says
Chat with a stranger online from another country for a month, get a proposal, (before meeting in person), and wait for a visa to be together. Then give credit to God for listening to your prayers and handing you the online foreigner who proposes to strangers without meeting them.
If I could highlight a post as to how NOT to approach dating, this would be it.
The Serious Truth says
Well Most marriages back then did last so much longer than today since many people were very much Committed to one another which today unfortunately many marriages are failing since many men and women are cheating more than ever which Most women are the Worst. They just had a couple on TV that just celebrated their 75th year together which many men and women need to learn from them.
jim hudson says
I met my late wife, and after knowing her for only 2 weeks, we decided to marry.. I left my life in the states and moved 10,000 miles to seize the moment.. on rare occasions, true love encompasses 2 people and the depth and commitment overcomes all obstacles…
Our marriage was a beautiful gift to the both of us… it gave us life… sadly, cancer ended it after 4.5 years.
Furthermore, the happiest couples I know both were married within a month… 20 years and counting..
tine plays no factor if love is the driving force.
Hannah says
I have a guy friend who is 42 and wants to propose to his girlfriend of only 3 months (she’s 28). Besides the big age difference I think that 3 months is not enough time to date before getting engaged. There are so many red flags that most people see but he doesn’t. I hate to see him get burned here but I don’t think this is going to end well.
Anonymous says
This all makes sense. But, I guess I wonder about the anomalies that dating someone who is a love bomber might play into the success of a marriage. I was with my ex for three years. She was already saying I love you after a few weeks and we moved in within three months. When we first started dating she would state her grandparents married after 2 weeks of knowing each other and lived a happy life together. Well, we defintely talked about marriage the first few years but school was a factor in waiting. Long story short she cheated with a coworker and expressed the same sentiments of love and marriage weeks into the relationship. I literally moved out and the new girl moved in. In this situation there are so many red flags… but, I do think they will get married because balancing home and work was not something she was willing to do. Now its fused in this relationship. She has borderline personality…So, courting is always so romantic and idealized until the mask comes off. How do personality disordered relationships fit into this concept of marriage success and trends given the added barrier of this disorder or behaviors. Looking back at my situation, the relationship was an illusion considering the end. Yet, I wonder if I had married her sooner would it have made much a difference. I feel part of her breaking it off and cheating was because she no longer wanted to wait. (Among several major issues related to her triggers). Food for thought. In normal healthy people I can see the value of this article. But, when dating and in the love bubble of courting a person with borderline or narcissism it can take years before seeing the “real” them. It can be hard to tell if you are dealing with a personality type that can sustain commitment. When the courting process is always wonderful…and the mask comes off it is a flipside. Its not the usual adjustment of two people but, a deeper issue in the persons history that surface. Those fears cause them to rush love yet push it away. Can the same concepts in the article apply in these situations too?