If Some Doomed Relationships Succeed, Couldn’t Mine?
- Relationships, Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Hello, Evan:
I loved your recent email about hanging onto a doomed relationship. Yes, I have been hanging on to a cheating casanova for FOUR YEARS!! (But Evan, he’s SO devastatingly handsome, and SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear. I practically swoon every time I get a text, a call or an email . . . . sigh.) Your emails have helped me enormously; with your no-holds-barred monthly reality checks, I am (gradually) extracting myself from his considerable pull on my heart (and libido :)).
Here’s my question: Do you think a compelling reason smart women hang on to guys who don’t put them first is because there are SOME instances — and, alas, we have all heard about them — where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend, and when she gave him an ultimatum, or even just stopped giving in and started respecting herself and setting boundaries, he behaved better — because SHE took over the direction of the relationship in an assertive (but demure) way?
No.
I must admit, this scenario is what keeps me hoping against hope that if I could only conduct my own behavior in a firm yet loving manner, I could change HIS behavior and guide him toward treating me right. It IS possible, no? Unfortunately, because it IS possible (though not probable, I “know,”) I keep on trying. Maybe today I won’t cave in and have sex with him. Maybe today I will tell him he didn’t call for a date early enough and I’m busy Saturday night. Maybe today I will say, “I don’t believe a word you just said. Call back when you can be respectful.” If I can only stand my ground and respect myself, he will respect me and we will live happily ever after — RIGHT??
I would dearly love it if you would address this strongly-held belief — a hope we women in love with cheating guys hold so dear to our broken hearts. Thank you!! You are amazingly insightful and wonderfully wise. I really look forward to your emails.
–Elizabeth
No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No.
Some other guy says
Elizabeth: on behalf of men who are not devastatingly handsome and charming, but are faithful, loving, and care about your needs, thank you for telling us that we don’t matter.
Alex Lanz says
Elizabeth:
I read your question and I have the urgent feeling to slap you out of it. Evan has said many times that men do what THEY want. IF they DON’T want to be faithful, then they won’t do it. IF they don’t want to respect, value and love you, then THEY won’t do it.
I say get out. Stop wasting your PRECIOUS time and leave! This guy has it sooo good with you. I mean he gets regular sex, company, affections and all the positive qualities that come in having a significant other, but wait that’s not all, he also gets to have sex with other women when he so desires and get away with it, because he KNOWS you’ll still be around. How nice. What a life. I mean he is living the dream.
A Cheater is a Cheater is a Cheater. Will he change? Hmmmmm maybe…BUT maybe not. Do you really want to stick around 15, 20, 30, years to find out? Liz, can I call you Liz? Get the F#$% out! TRUST ME there are men out there who would LOVE to make you happy.
I was in a relationship for 3 years with a handsome, hot musician. He was European, tall, charismatic, spoke 4 languages fluently, serenaded me constantly, composed songs and poems for me (sigh…….) Life was wonderful. No. No it wasn’t. He proposed after 2 years. 3 weeks before the wedding he canceled it. one year later, I am still discovering his lies. He was a cheater, a liar, and selfish. Oh but he was hot. SO……WHAT!
I thought I would never find someone like him to love. BUT why would I want someone life him anyway. One year later, I am dating a man who is crazy about me. CRAZY….ABOUT…..ME, not other women. So honey, get out. Have some dignity and self respect and don’t waste another 4 years of your life, learn from them.
Lots of love
Alex
Amy says
Thank you Alex. I recently have found myself on the other side of what was blatantly professed to an exclusive relationship, only to find out he also was in another long term relationship with someone who lived in another city (supposed work travel took him out of town often). Talk about being selfish. Uncovering the string of lies repeatedly takes my breath away. And the thing that sucks is that she is blissfully unaware and he has taken the opportunity not to do the right thing, but to advance that relationship. Nice to read something and remember recovery is possible and that it is possible to find someone on the other side who is deserving of your trust 🙂
marymary says
Yes they can change. Maybe when his father dies. or he has a heart attack. Or his last single friend gets married. And then he looks for a woman he can commit to, to be the mother of his children even. Unfortunately, that would be the kind of woman who wouldn’t put up with a cheater.
Yes it’s hypocrisy.
LC says
It must be some sort of psychosis where a woman thinks that her stuff is better than every other girl’s, and somehow magically, he’s going to change for her. He’ll change if and when he’s good and ready. Lots of these lotharios never change, and her having sex with him while he’s knowingly lying and cheating certainly isn’t going to get him to change. He has no respect for her, and without respect, there is no love.
Ruby says
Ha ha! EMK, that was an easy one for you!
<<he’s SO devastatingly handsome, and SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear.>>
How do you think he gets away with all the crap behaviors that go along with being so fabulous?
Lia says
That is kind of an ambivalent answer… So that would be a “no”? 🙂
Marie says
Elizabeth, stop using all kinds of needle in a hay stack scenarios to justify the answer you want to hear. No he’s not going to change and even if a boulder falls on him and he has an epiphany, he’s not going to change for YOU. It will be the next woman with whom he can start over and who will see a reinvented guy. It won’t be you, whom he clearly doesn’t respect and who will be just baggage he has to get rid of so he can move on to the next stage of his life. I feel bad for you but you are just making things worse on yourself.
Marie says
I’d also like to add that clearly your common sense is telling you this is hopeless but you can’t seem to break free. Are you limerant on this guy? If so it’s like an addiction and you should really develop a very clear plan of attack to break away, like any addiction. Is he fulfilling some kind of emotional hole in your life? Do you need the fake boost of self-esteem? Is it the rush of danger? Do you feel like he’s what you really deserve and can’t do better? Because really there are plenty of other men you could fall for. He’s not the last guy on earth!!!
Miranda says
#1 Some other guy, where did you get THAT message from???? SHE DID NOT SAY ONCE THAT OTHER MEN DON’T MATTER! WHERE DID SHE SAY THAT????
Sorry for ranting but I am so fed up with the increase of men whining on this and other blogs. Grow up! Life has not only been unfair towards you. Life is unfair to everyone, constantly. Many men prefer youth and beauty in women. Am I complaining? NO! Because I know there is somebody out there for everyone. We ALL have it hard, not just you. Stop shifting the blame and stop seeking attention like that. Seriously, enough is enough.
I am beautiful, not pretty… beautiful! I have always received loads of attention from men. But I can tell you one thing, sometimes I wish I was born less attractive because I keep attracting men who only look for a trophy. I am not happy with my relationship life. So see, we all have our issues. And yes, I am not a victim and I can weed out the superficial guys. I know this, this is why I usually don’t complain.
BeenThruTheWars says
He’s cheated on you multiple times and always gotten away with it. You eagerly come back for more. What’s his incentive to change?
You are his “good for now” girl. Someday, he may meet the woman of his dreams and not want to stray again (don’t bet on it), but you aren’t it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I don’t mean it to; it’s just a fact.
When a man says (either with his words or actions), “I can’t be faithful,” what he’s really saying is, “I can’t be faithful… to you.” Evan’s right, the other posters are right, you won’t change him, end of story. We can’t change other people, we can only change ourselves. If you were able to break things off with him and start cultivating some self-esteem into your dating life, you might just find someone worthy of you, because your own behavior would then be that of a woman who values herself. You clearly don’t now, because you’re allowing Mr. Suave to hurt you, over and over. Like the old saying goes, “We teach people how to treat us.”
I’m not just preaching; I once stayed with a man for seven years who cheated on me for five of those years… with men *and* women. Guess he wasn’t to choosy, and obviously, neither was I! Consider yourself lucky to’ve only wasted four, and proceed to the nearest exit.
Karl R says
Elizabeth asked: (original letter)
“He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear.”
“If I can only stand my ground and respect myself, he will respect me and we will live happily ever after – RIGHT??”
If you stand your ground and respect yourself, he will say all the sweet/sexy things you want to hear … and he’ll keep doing all the cheating (and whatever else) until you catch him again.
Elizabeth asked: (original letter)
“I must admit, this scenario is what keeps me hoping against hope that if I could only conduct my own behavior in a firm yet loving manner, I could change HIS behavior and guide him toward treating me right. It IS possible, no?”
Let’s say he conducted his behavior in a firm manner. Could he change your behavior and guide you into allowing him to have all the women on the side that he possibly wants? It IS possible, no?
I think he has a better chance of changing you than you have of changing him. You seem to love him a lot more than he loves you.
Elizabeth said: (original letter)
“there are SOME instances – and, alas, we have all heard about them – where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend,”
I’ve heard of those instances, but they were all fictional.
In addition, I don’t see any evidence that he truly loves you. You truly love him. He’s good at saying the sexy/sweet things you want to hear (so he may have convinced you that he truly loves you). But actions speak louder than words. He has cheated on you repeatedly for four years. That’s hardly an example of true love.
Elizabeth asked: (original letter)
“If I can only stand my ground and respect myself, he will respect me and we will live happily ever after – RIGHT??”
I had a girlfriend who wanted something very different than me. She wanted lots of kids, and she knew I wanted none. She respected herself. She stood her ground. I completely respected her choice and her decision.
I’m now marred to a different woman (who doesn’t want kids). That ex-girlfriend pursuing relationships with men who want children. I expect she’ll eventually find one whom she’ll happily marry.
So if you respect yourself and stand up for yourself, you may eventually get your happily ever after … with a different man.
Sunflower says
What the hell are you thinking girl? Get it together.
Cat6herine says
Yes, Elizabeth, there is the rare example of the selfish guy changing and growing up, but the ONLY way a woman can see that sort of change in a man is if she really does mature as a woman and truly does recover her self esteem. It cannot be faked, it has to be a real internal change that has to be clearly communicated and the cassanova man must be ready to finally put his immature ways behind him and value her enough to change. Unfortunately, that can only happen if you completely cut him off, break the addiction (yes, it is an addiction) and work on loving yourself. He could possibly be man enough and miss you enough to grow up. Not bloody likely though. And of course, you cannot make a change in yourself hoping that then he will change. You have to exorcise him completely from your system and then if he shows back up properly, it is a pleasant unexpected surprise. And if handled correctly, you probably won’t even want him back.
Pauline says
Elizabeth, are you serious? 4 years with a cheater and a real man who doesn’t love you – 4 YEARS!!!!
You think you can change him? Good luck with that because you will still be beating your head up against that brick wall for another 4 years or more. He’s got the best of all worlds, lots of women like you who let him get away with everything, why should he ever change?
You’re living in a fantasyland.
Nene says
Thank you for your question elizabeth. I can completely relate. Being a loyal and hopeful chump sucks royal. I only wish EMK would have elaborated with some sound logic for us fellow chumps to chew on; to help displace our compulsive diet of denial. That’s what we come here for.
Some other guy says
Technically it’s possible that Elizabeth may get her way, to mold her fella into the man she wants.
Likewise, she could win $250M in the lottery.
Kim says
Elizabeth,
Yes, he will change. When he dies. Period. Get out, girlfriend, and do not waste another minute on this a**clown who doesn’t deserve you, or any of the other women he is disrespecting with his behavior. He is a classic narcissist and will destroy you if you continue feeding his neediness for adoration. He doesn’t care about you, nor will he ever, because the only person your “cheating casanova” cares about is himself.
You might want to get some therapy to try to understand why you allowed yourself to be treated so poorly for so long, before you go back out and try to find another man. If you don’t get to the heart of that problem, you will repeat the same scenario with a “different” guy.
Julia says
Nene
Being a loyal and hopeful chump sucks royal. I only wish EMK would have elaborated with some sound logic for us fellow chumps to chew on; to help displace our compulsive diet of denial. That’s what we come here for.
Uh, what kind of logic do you need. If a man treats you bad, LEAVE HIM. That’s it, you don’t want to hear it and that’s your problem.
Luisa says
Karl R – great commentary again! I love reading them…
Elizabeth – seriously – have you re-read what you wrote? You know the truth deep down and you don’t need to have it affirmed by us. Most likely you’ll stay with him for the time being because you hold some hope that he may change. He won’t…not for you because you don’t have any boundaries..or at least you don’t stick up for your ones.
The sad truth is that when you do pluck up the courage to leave him, he will respect you for it (and will miss the free sex and companionship that came along with it until he meets someone else). He knows how to charm you and you offer it to him on a platter…it’s that easy. You’re not real gf material because he couldn’t lose you if he tried…you’re always there no matter how badly he treats you. That’s not love, that convenience for him.
Start treating yourself with the dignity and respect you deserve and walk away…I’m sure he’ll cope without you. There are so many wonderful guys out there who would make fantastic boyfriends…maybe it’s time you took the blinkers off and allowed the good guys to come into focus. 😉
Anonymous says
These men always find wives, and have women fighting over themselves to gain their affections. OP Liz knows that, she can’t bear for it to be some one else. I see tons of gorgeous women, not many hot men, they are rare indeed. Sh!t, its true 🙁 Not many Charlie Hunnam types walking around. She probably waited a LONG time to find him, and the replacement will not be easy. So, based on that boyfriend shopping logic, (rare good looks/tons of options) these guys fall in love with themselves pretty early. Combine that with “men do what they want, when they want” mentality Even tells us about- and it is self love squared! Human nature– for men. Think of the trajectory of known male cheaters in relationships. The narcissist- supremely (UNCONSCIOUSLY) selfish and constantly ignoring your needs. Or worse still, the sociopath (chronic DELIBERATE cheater/liar) who will wreak havoc on your life. Both find wives that stay in emotionally abusive situations, confusing LONGING for love. The psychological roots can go all the way back to her childhood- she may have had semi toxic parents or not quite ideal conditional love, so she thinks she has to OVERCOME something, and FIGHT to prove her worth, (disapproving or critical parents). She now believes that straightforward, easy love is BORING and BLOODLESS and that she needs passion- of unhealthy measures: drama/rejection/wins over other women for wife status. Social class aside, marrying a cheater is a really tough road ahead- e.g. Sandra Bullock, Betty Brodrick, Elizabeth Edwards, Mary Jo Buttafucco, Elin Nordagren, Tea Leoni, decades-long lists of Warren Beatty girlfriends? I’m only using famous people because we both know them, as a reference point. The only woman who came out APEARRING to be unscathed, was perhaps Jackie Kennedy who had an enviable reputation and seemingly happy life. Her marriage t-chart & cost benefit analysis was different from most women, as she got to be First Lady, access to glamorous top tier lifestyle and protection of a big, arrogant family. Doubt OPs man can provide the same said assets to offset huge (emotional/sexual/financial/self esteem) liability.
deannie says
EMK, you really dish advice like the best of friends a girl could ever have. KUDOS!
AllenB says
The OP talks about controlling the relationship and also controlling/changing him. If only…if only… we can’t control another person, nor can we control the trajectory of a relationship, only the role we play in it. How the other person responds to our role is entirely in their control. The trajectory of the relationship is the combination.
Elizabeth, you seem to think if only you XYZ, then Mr. Lothario would ABC, implying his behavior is under your control if you can only find the right formula to manipulate him. That is what you are seeking, you realize? You want to manipulate this person into living the life you want him to live.
Your matter of fact language implies a world view which is simply wrong; that we can elicit particular behaviors from other people. The reality is we can communicate our needs, and the other person can either choose to change their behavior or not. We can deny or otherwise punish a person something they want in order to get a particular behavior and this sometimes works with children, but only when they are young and entirely at an adult’s mercy, and is not a foundation for a mutually caring relationship between equals.
Your way of thinking is called co-dependence and if you do some reading on the topic you may recognize yourself being described in other relationships in your life (family, friends, co-workers etc.)
Letting go of your belief that you can control others will be emotionally difficult because it is part of the foundation of your worldview, but your life will be much happier and more peaceful on the other side. Your control is an illusion anyway that you can’t count on.
Reading Co-dependent No More is a good start.
I wish you happiness and peace.
Karl T says
This is my dream come true. May the shallowest of people end up with the biggest jerks!!
J says
Hi Elizabeth. Your boyfriend cares more about fucking other women than he does about making you happy. He enjoys them, he pursues them ( despite what he may say, his pants don’t unzip themselves) and he is an active, willing participant in the seduction.
That being said, say you put up the bs ‘I’m not taking it anymore stance’ and he falls for it and becomes dedicated to you. After 4 years of not giving much of a damn- yay? What have you won? A starring role in the next production of ‘I’m gonna make you respect my feelings’ ( cause yeah, he will find a new way to make you feel disrespected. That type of stuff doesn’t just go away). Maybe you can have a daughter and she’ll tell you when she grows up she wants a man just like her Daddy. But wait, that’s not good enough for her, is it? Then it’s not good enough for you either.
I sympathize with the fact that you feel like he’s the only one. But he’s not. Before you move on, take some time to figure out why he is so much more important to you than *you* are to you. Get the bigger picture so he won’t be the first of many ‘cassanovas’, but rather an isolated incident. I sincerely wish you the best!
faded jade says
EMK (in the OP) GREAT concise answer !
Karl said in post #11
Elizabeth said: (original letter)
“there are SOME instances – and, alas, we have all heard about them – where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend,”
I’ve heard of those instances, but they were all fictional.
LOL Karl, I think I’ve seen some of those fairy tales on this very blog !
AllenB said in post 22
“The OP talks about controlling the relationship and also controlling/changing him. If only…if only… we can’t control another person, nor can we control the trajectory of a relationship, only the role we play in it. How the other person responds to our role is entirely in their control. The trajectory of the relationship is the combination.”
You have a point Allen, but you know what, there is so much BAD “stand by your man” advice out there. I was in a horrible relationship and there was so much advice saying I could just turn it all around if I was willing to pay thousands of dollars for “How to get him Back” or some such BS. I actually shelled out $35 for a “Get your man back” book, and most of it was tired old FASHION advice. SERIOUSLY, like my dysfunctional relationship could be fixed with just the right shade of lip gloss or a new dress. The author of this book also seemed obsessed with women wearing long ear rings, as if stud earrings or no ear wear at all can make or break a relatinship. And this crap was supposed to be soooooooooooo enlightending ? Uh-gee, I never thought to wear make up before how does mascara even work ??????? (I AM being sarcastic) There is SO MUCH advice telling women that they CAN make a bad boy settle down with the right body language, the right word for word script, the right look or playing hard to get or trying to make him jealous. What NONSENSE. You can’t turn a cheater into a faithful partner with high heels, a hair toss, a little girl pout, or any other tail shaking maneuvers. And the communication advice to sugar coat everything by starting every sentences with “When you do this, I fell that”. A cheater isn’t going to change his bad boy ways because he heard the phrase ‘’ I feel betrayed when you bang other women” coming from his “girlfriends” shiny pink lips underneath her batting eyelashes. I even had girl friends tell me I should try to work things out with a chronic cheater. (with friends like that who needs enemies ??????? ) So it si possible that Elizabeth has read a lot of BAD advice and is convinced that the right words, body language and hair style will turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse. (it won’t) When I was surfing the misinformation highway online I was starting to get FURIOUS at these sol called “experts” telling me how I should grovel trying to turn a jerk into a prince, and when I landed in EMK land it was so refreshing to see someone say “DUMP the jerk and find someone better” !!!!!!!!!
Karl T said in post #23 “
“This is my dream come true. May the shallowest of people end up with the biggest jerks!! “
What a mean thing to say ! You don’t’ know the OP, you don’t know if she’s “shallow” or just niave, or just way to much of a MAN PLEASER, and you are calling her misery a dream come true. With your obvious hatred of women, it wouldn’t surprise me if you die alone. Not that it would make me happy, but it seems to me that YOU are one the biggest jerks !!! So I guess that means you want to end up with a shallow person.
Henriette says
I have, occasionally, heard of casanovas reforming. Here’s what usually happens:
a. the guy undergoes something major (his mom dies; he goes into therapy; he finds Jesus; turns 50 yrs old… whatever) and changes the course of his life. He stops screwing around, starts treating people with respect and DUMPS whatever “girlfriend” was letting him cheat on her. He doesn’t want to start a new life with a woman whose mere presence constantly reminds him of the nasty piece of trash he used to be. If he’s truly making a fresh start, that includes a fresh partner.
or b. he turns over a new leaf… for a while. Then, he returns to his cheating dog ways.
In other words: no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Jenna says
Well, I gotta say: a friend was just telling me about a guy we work with who bitched about his girlfriend and was sleeping with 3 other girls in the first year they dated. I think she put her foot down, and in any case, they wound up getting married. They always post tons of happy pictures on Facebook.
Of course this happens …. but we don’t know the full story for those couples. I mean, even though this couple I mentioned could be happy, is this really … ideal? Do you really want to wake up next to someone for the rest of your life that let you down before you were even married? Who maybe just got married because he was balding, all his other friends were getting married, he was struck by inertia, etc.? I’m a real believer in conscious, intentional love, not falling into stuff.
Stix says
Building and maintaining personal boundaries and self respect is done for you. Period. If People in general start treating you better, that’s the cherry.
First step in building personal boundaries…
Get yourself the fuck out of this situation. With real self respect you will not even want to take a call from a man who so obviously doesn’t give a shit about how he treats you.
starthrower68 says
He might change but you’re gonna suffocate holding your breath waiting on him.
Francesca says
oh wow she is really deluded.
I would also urge her to look closer at those “reformed” relationships. Has she really come across a situation where a man went from cheating spouse to loyal one? Really?
I think what sometimes happens is a guy meets a girl who he behaves for. However he does it right from the start of the relationship, he never cheats, never misbehaves for that girl.
Sparkling Emerald says
Lia@6 – That is kind of an ambivalent answer… So that would be a “no”?
LOL ! Yeah EMK should stop soft pedaling it and tell this OP what he REALLY thinks.
Good to see you posting again Lia. Haven’t seen you on this blog in a while. I missed you !
Deevra Norling says
LOL – Evan, your response cracked me up. Yep, there is nothing more to say but NO! That’s it – end of story. Lol.
Frimmel says
Miranda in #9: re where did she say “good” guys don’t matter.
This woman’s letter vindicates every “nice guy” TM who ever said women just want jerks. This woman’s letter vindicates “game.” She is asking for approval to keep dating a guy who treats her bad. A guy who is gaming her. He’s probably not cheating on her. He’s probably been very clear even aside from his behavior they are not exclusive. But she knows she can change him. This is the gal “ruining” it for the rest of you.
“He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear. I practically swoon every time I get a text, a call or an email . . . . sigh.) …
…I am (gradually) extracting myself from his considerable pull on my heart (and libido.) “
I couldn’t help but think of “Magnolia” and T.J. Mackey (as the stereotypical fictional example of a PUA.)
“I’m Frank T.J. Mackey, a master of the muffin and author of the Seduce and Destroy system now available to you on video and audio cassette. Seduce and Destroy will teach you the techniques to have any hardbody blonde just dripping to wet your dock. Bottom line? Language. The magical key to unlocking the female analytical mindset. Tap directly into her hopes, her wants, her fears, her desires, and her sweet little panties. Learn how to make that lady “friend” your sex-starved servant.”
Sparkling Emerald says
Frimmel #33 – “This woman’s letter vindicates every “nice guy” TM who ever said women just want jerks.”
This letter gives jerk-wanna-be’s an excuse to be jerks. As Evan says, your last relationship has nothing to do with the person you are dating now. Neither does a letter writer on a blog. This writer is one woman, true, there are lots for women like her, and there are men who stick around with cheating women, or stick with women who are b****** and allow themselves to PW’d. But there are lots of nice couples in the world who couple up with each other because they are a good match. And lots of nice people who reject each other because they aren’t a good match. It’s called dating. You can play that game, when you get rejected by someone, you can cry and bitch that they rejected you because you were so “nice”, and then decide to take it out the next girl (or guy) you date. But you know what ? That ISN’T nice, and if you are going to let rejection (or another woman’s insistence on staying with an douche canoe) be your ticket to jerk-dom, then you really aren’t a nice guy (or gal) after all. Just another jerk looking for an excuse. Funny, how men (and women too) will piss and moan when they get rejected and scream “It’s not fair, It’s not fair”, but if that person is mid 20’s or older and has dated around a bit, you can’t tell me that THEY never gave anyone a rejection slip. (or just disappeared) Probably reject a lot of “nice” people themselves, simply because the attraction wasn’t there, or the compatibility wasn’t there. Nice people reject and get rejected on a regular basis. The true measure of niceness is that you take it in stride, and don’t look for revenge on the next person you date.
And don’t tell me you’ve never seen a guy with a hot babe, taking all kinds of crap from her, being her love sick little lap dog. A total PW’d mess. I’ve seen it, and it makes me want to b**** slap that girl for making our gender look bad. But it certainly doesn’t give me an excuse to find some “nice guy” and treat him like dirt. And I wouldn’t. No one should be made the scape goat for anyone else’s relationship failures.
JGirl says
Oh My. Didn’t read all the responses..don’t have time before work..but this just hit home. I just dumped a man like this, I knew he wasn’t right for me, but he said all the right things, did the right things..just enough to hook me.but not enough for me to fee secure.
We had an argument and 1 hour later, he is on a date (woman he ‘met’ on Plenty of Fish)….1 week later he is in a ‘relationship’ with her! He told me ‘sorry, I was ready, really ready and you didn’t return my call on Friday’.
This type of man very rarely changes and if he does, it’s only because he wants to. This man I was dating? He had many girlfriends…claims he only slept with me, I was his first choice, but how do I know? He said he wanted to be my one and only, but never once said I would be his one and only.
Oh…for a month or two this new woman will enjoy his 100% attention…but he will get bored or she will take a little too long to respond to a phone call…and the cycle will start again.
Leave him alone lady! He likes it like that and WONT change for you….he may not ever change.
Julia says
Frimmel #33
I’m not going to even quote your comment. My take away is that insecure people seek insecure people. If this woman’s behavior is attractive to you or something you seek to invoke, it speaks volumes about you. No one healthy would act this way or would want to be with someone who acts this way.
Goldie says
Frimmel #33 – it’s not often that I agree with every word of your post. I’d like it to go on the record that this is one such time 🙂
Some other guy #1 – men that are “faithful, loving, and care about your needs” do matter to many, many women. A lot of us find these characteristics “devastatingly handsome and charming” in a man. Please don’t change.
marymary says
Sparkling, 34
Can I should blame her for my bad relationships too?
Marie says
@Frimmel – I agree with Sparkling Emerald. It depends on what you mean by nice. Truly nice, kind people are that way because of deepseated character. They’re not bothered by losing some perceived advantage because they took the high road, it’s just the way they are. Then there’s the other kind of nice guy which I call the guy without balls. He doesn’t have the balls to make any kind of decision or step up, so he gets beat by the people who do and then resents them for having an ability he doesn’t. That’s not true integrity. As for the jerks, why would you want to be a jerk? Is it such a great thing to be a jerk so you can attract undiscerning women who would go out with jerks? Do you really want those kinds of women? If I were a guy I would say no thanks. I am going to be true to myself and find the woman who will appreciate me for who I am. It may take longer but I don’t care because I’m worth a high quality woman. The jerks can have the fast food!!
Frimmel says
#34 Sparkling Emerald: “This letter gives jerk-wanna-be’s an excuse to be jerks. As Evan says, your last relationship has nothing to do with the person you are dating now. “
The new person you’re dating is not the last person you were dating. But that doesn’t make you blameless. I want to be myself. I also want to succeed at dating. These things are not always complimentary to one another. So I’d darn well better understand which parts I am and am not responsible for.
So you have to look at what succeeds and obviously something in this guy’s behavior works and you’ll probably find a lot of it described in the “game” literature.
Most guys don’t want to be jerks but they do want to be successful and there is quite obviously a certain amount of jerk women will tolerate if you’re handsome enough and charming enough. One of my problems with “game” is how easy it can be even for Joe Average like me.
I wouldn’t want to be the nice guy she dates as part of her gradual weaning herself from this guy. He’ll no doubt find himself paying for the date and a tepid kiss before she heads home to wait for the swoon inducing booty call text from this guy so she can insert vulgar sex act she’d never consider with the guy who paid for her meal earlier.
A nice guy’s behavior might influence her choices but he can’t make them for her. So when she doesn’t respond to nice and the next girl and the next girl don’t respond to nice he’ll look for something he’ll have more success with.
Elizabeth is probably attractive. A player like this guy appears to be wouldn’t keep her “in rotation” if she weren’t. She probably has plenty of orbiters she’s oblivious to in favor of a guy who is playing her because he knows better how to press her buttons. What lesson should those guys take? Be nicer or learn how to better push her buttons?
Yuri says
This question depresses me to an unfathomable extent.
You’re desperately clinging to this man and hoping that if you grow a spine or some self-respect, he’ll change. Too late! You already let him have his cake and eat it, too. You gave him exactly what he wanted. Take away the cake, and he’ll go elsewhere for it. You don’t matter to him. You never did.
A woman who truly had an ounce of self-respect would have left him in the dust the moment she knew he was playing her like a guitar. Guaranteed all that romantic crap he uses on you, he uses on the women he cheats on you with. You are not a unique snowflake. Are you really that blind???
Women like you are the reason why men like that exist. He’s a parasite, and he knows who the best hosts are. You’re only teaching him that it’s okay to use and abuse female emotional relationships.
judy says
Love the reply, Evan. I’m still trying to figure out just WHY she says the guy is “charming, romantic and attentive”.
Geez.
But no is really a great answer.
Frimmel says
Marie in #39: “I am going to be true to myself and find the woman who will appreciate me for who I am. It may take longer but I don’t care because I’m worth a high quality woman. “
That’s been my attitude and while it hasn’t left me dateless it would be fair to say it isn’t entirely working out as I’d prefer.
Julia in #36: I think I addressed your comment in #40 (assuming you made a typo and meant “this man’s behavior.”) If you did mean “this woman’s behavior” it seems to me I wouldn’t find it attractive. I suspect I’d cause Elizabeth a great deal of cognitive dissonance.
Goldie in #37: Thanks. Don’t make it a habit. 🙂
Goldie says
#40
“What lesson should those guys take? Be nicer or learn how to better push her buttons?”
Depends on what those guys want. If they want a woman (granted, a probably attractive woman), who admits she’s addicted to them, wants to break free of her addiction to them, but doesn’t know how, then by all means, learn how to better push her buttons. If they want a healthy functional relationship with a healthy, functional woman, then the lesson would be to ignore the dramatic couple, be yourself, and treat others with respect.
I agreed with your #33 in the sense that Elizabeth enables her no-good on-and-off bf and gives him enough reasons to continue being a douche to her, since, in his mind, it works. In my opinion though, it only works in the sense that selling timeshares worked for that couple in the Queen Of Versailles documentary. On the surface, they’re crazy rich, have a giant house and are building another, even more gigantic one. But in reality, they’re up to their eyeballs in debt; their business has already tanked once and is likely to tank again any minute; and whatever wealth they do have, is built upon a foundation of misleading people and ripping them off, which couldn’t help but take a toll on their own character. One thing I haven’t seen in this documentary was an indication of these people having any friends.
It’s like I said before – short-term vs long-term. Short-term, men like Elizabeth’s bf(?) win, in that they get more action with women who are more attractive and higher in status. I have not seen any of those guys win long-term though. I had a relative who was like that. Yes he went through dozens of attractive women in his life, but last I saw him, he was in his 50s and alone. My parents had a family friend who was also that type of man. One day his wife of 20 years told him she was going for a walk, got on a train, and called him two days later from all the way across the country to tell him she had left him. No sane woman would want to grow old next to a man like that.
@ Marie 39, I agree. A lot of conflict-avoidant, passive-aggressive and otherwise messed-up men tend to think of themselves as nice guys, but they’re not. Whenever I say “nice guys” in this post, I mean the genuinely nice, confident men who treat themselves and others with respect. They do exist.
Karl R says
Frimmel said: (#33)
“This woman’s letter vindicates every ‘nice guy’ TM who ever said women just want jerks.”
Those men may feel vindicated, but that doesn’t make them correct. Even Elizabeth’s letter makes it clear that she doesn’t want a jerk. She wants a scorchingly hot, smooth-talking, faithful, devoted, respectful husband. However, she’s willing to settle for a scorchingly hot, smooth-talking, cheating, player boyfriend.
Frimmel said: (#33)
“This is the gal ‘ruining’ it for the rest of you.”
How?
The people pursuing unattainable fantasies aren’t ruining things any more than the people who are in happy long-term relationships. Neither group is available to date. Both groups serve as examples to the people who are searching (what to look for, and what not to look for).
You can only ruin things for yourself. (And I would argue that Elizabeth is demonstrating one way to do that.)
Frimmel said: (#33)
“This woman’s letter vindicates ‘game.'”
Heck, I’ll vindicate the concept of “game”. I couldn’t become devastatingly handsome, but I could act like I had more game. As you said, it’s even easy for Joe Average.
But you can have “game” without being a jerk.
Frimmel asked: (#33)
“Elizabeth is probably attractive. A player like this guy appears to be wouldn’t keep her ‘in rotation’ if she weren’t. She probably has plenty of orbiters she’s oblivious to in favor of a guy who is playing her because he knows better how to press her buttons. What lesson should those guys take? Be nicer or learn how to better push her buttons?”
The orbiters should learn to stop waiting for women who are oblivious to them. Orbiting is a losing strategy.
They can also learn to push the woman’s buttons (if they can do so without being a jerk), but that has a low percentage chance of working if you’re orbiting.
When I met my wife, she had a few men who were orbiting her. (She was aware of some of them, but wasn’t interested in them.) She was also getting strung along in a casual relationship by a HJNTIY man whom she was very interested in. (He would ask her out about once per month.)
I started pushing her buttons six months before we started dating. During that time, I dated two or three other women.
Even when we started dating, it was clear that she still was more interested in the HJNTIY man than anyone else. I didn’t see that as something to get frustrated or bitter about. Instead, we started dating as a “fun for now” fling … and I kept my eyes open for potential relationships with women who were more available.
When my wife finely got fed up with getting strung along, who do you think was in a better position for a serious relationship?
a) The half-dozen orbiters.
b) The man she was already having sex with.
I didn’t commit to any kind of exclusive relationship until I knew she was willing to do the same. I was fully aware that I might move on long before she gave up on the HJNTIY man.
Opinions may differ, but I don’t think I was a jerk to my wife. She knew where things stood. We both made conscious decisions about what kind of relationship we were going to have along the way.
I got into a serious relationship because I had more game than the men who were orbiting her. But my wife had many previous serious relationships with other men who had a similar amount of game. We’re married because I’m a nicer guy than any of them.
marymary says
Goldie, 44
I consider my brothers to be nice. With women they are respectful and kind, as they are to most people. When I am with them I feel happy and protected. Maybe it’s cos they have two older sisters, and daughters and nieces. Their wives adore them.
As for the OP, she may be a victim of the bait and switch where they seem so into you, you fall in love, there’s this oxytocin effect that people bang on about. And then you realise there’s trouble in paradise. Underneath this bravado I expect is a very hurt and confused person. Of course that doesn’t mean she should stay but neither should she be scorned or made to feel it’s her fault that everyone else has had crap experiences. We all have. If she should own hers, we should own ours.
Frimmel says
Goldie in #44: “Depends on what those guys want. If they want a woman (granted, a probably attractive woman), who admits she’s addicted to them, wants to break free of her addiction to them, but doesn’t know how, then by all means, learn how to better push her buttons. If they want a healthy functional relationship with a healthy, functional woman, then the lesson would be to ignore the dramatic couple, be yourself, and treat others with respect.”
But my guess is she isn’t even noticing the guys who want a healthy functional relationship and she’ll continue to not notice them until they’re a bit more “jerk” err… better at pushing her buttons.
If she wanted respect she wouldn’t be with this guy at all and she sure wouldn’t be sending this letter in. She knows she’s supposed to want respect and knows she doesn’t want disrespect but I think genuine respect is probably pretty far down her list of concerns behind swoon inducing texts and the preferences of her libido.
Joe says
Jeez Evan, I think your answer could have been a little more concise! 😉
Ruby says
I’m not seeing how ONE woman’s relationship can “vindicate” all nice guys who think men want jerks, or all jerks, for that matter. I don’t know any women of any age who want a relationship like hers, and the fact that she’s writing in for advice indicates that she’s not satisfied with the situation either. She’s just in denial about the outcome.
I’m also curious about her age. I’m guessing she’s younger. She wouldn’t be the first young woman to think that a jerk is going to change. I would also go one step further and say that often when women – or men – get into less than satisfying relationships, it says something about their own readiness to commit. If you are truly ready for a committed relationship, you’d kick someone like this to the curb quickly. But i don’t see her concerns as being about “vindicating” anybody.
Fusee says
@Frimmel #47:
I see your point, but the problem is that you’re looking at the Letter Writer‘s issue as if she was chosing it rationally. Problem is: she is addicted. You can’t expect logic from an addict. If she had written about weight issues and her inability to resist fast food restaurants, and how she would hope they would make the same food with no calories or toxic ingredients in it, we would be replying in the same way. That she is deluded, that she must quit junk and chose health over immediate gratification if she wants to lose weight and feel better. Same issue here. The Letter Writer is addicted, and she is still in denial about what’s going on. Like a good addict, she is still trying to rationalize the addiction.
Regarding “playing the jerk”, “game”, etc. that you talk about @40: I also see the temptation you could feel if you have been struggling in your dating while being “nice”. The thing is, those women are not attracted to “jerks”, they are attracted to all the positive qualities that those jerks display in spite of them being jerks. Basically, those positive qualities are so powerful that they make those women tolerate absolutely terrible behaviors. It’s because the bad behaviors come up progressively, in between layers of “good stuff”. First they accept a little bad, and progressively a little more, until it looks crazy from the outside and until they completely lose their ability to see what’s going on. That’s why some women stay in abusive relationships by the way. It does not happen overnight.
Anyway, I’m not making excuses, and I’m not one of those women. I’m actually repulsed by smooth talkers and people who “always say the right thing”. I’m attracted to authenticity, vulnerability, and reality. But I’m just trying to explain to you why such situation is happening and why the solution is not to become a jerk!
As Karl R wrote, if you can integrate some productive “game” techniques into your dating methods – such as more confidence and sex appeal – you will become much more successful without having to become a “jerk”, without losing your self-respect, and without attracting that kind of women who fall for smooth talkers. It would be a win-win because you would become more appealing than those narcissist men (since there would be no jerk-ness), while having the benefit of an actual chance at a real loving relationship. Something that narcissists can’t have.
Frimmel says
Karl R in #45: “I got into a serious relationship because I had more game than the men who were orbiting her. But my wife had many previous serious relationships with other men who had a similar amount of game. We’re married because I’m a nicer guy than any of them.”
So what you’re saying is that without game your wife wouldn’t have noticed or cared you were a nice guy.
Karmic Equation says
Let’s flip the genders on what Karl R @ 45 wrote, shall we?
“I started pushing his buttons six months before we started dating. During that time, I dated two or three other men.
Even when we started dating, it was clear that he still was more interested in the HJNTIY woman than anyone else. I didn’t see that as something to get frustrated or bitter about. Instead, we started dating as a “fun for now” fling … and I kept my eyes open for potential relationships with men who were more available.
<snip>
I didn’t commit to any kind of exclusive relationship until I knew he was willing to do the same. I was fully aware that I might move on long before he gave up on the HJNTIY woman.”
This strategy can be effective for women too. So why don’t most women do this I wonder.
It’s the way I’m dating now. Instead of dating “two or three men” because setting up the dates aren’t always up to me, I have to date 6-12 men (basically a different man for every date Karl had with those three woman). Presumably Karl R was having sex with those women he was dating. As a woman, you could be rounding the bases only if you can’t have NSA sex.
If you can, you’re not wasting your time on one guy who may not work out and keeping your own options open, like Karl R did.
It’s pretty interesting that all the women here are quick to label the guy a cheater without the full story. As Frimmel mentioned, he’s probably told her all along he wasn’t interested in anything serious, so he wasn’t cheating. However, if he introduced her to friends and family as his GF and cheated, then yes, he’s cheater. But even the OP doesn’t refer to him as her bf, but rather as a “cheating casanova”. So is he cheating? Or did she assume a relationship that doesn’t truly exist? Unclear.
That being the case, OP does have some options.
1) Accept being his occasional booty call. We know she’s at least this to her guy. OP loves the sex and companionship of this man. There is nothing wrong with that. That cultural indoctrination of women to think that sex isn’t worthwhile unless shared in a loving monogamous relationship is culturally and environmentally driven, not biologically (read Sex at Dawn, and you’ll understand why I say this).
2) Stop hoping that the sexual relationship will into an loving, monogamous relationhip. He may love her, but not enough and not in the way that makes him want to give up variety. The only thing “wrong” that OP is doing is hoping for a traditional monogamous relationship with this guy. If she’s looking to get married and raise a family, he’s not the guy for her. If she’s divorced with children of her own already, then there’s no reason for her to not be in “his rotation” if it doesn’t cause her any real pain. A bruised ego is not the same as a broken heart.
3) Consider an open relationship. It seems that OP is not deeply affected by his cheating (she doesn’t sound broken-hearted, more like exasperated, or even naive, but definitely not sad or depressed) — In some cultures, and Sex at Dawn theorizes that for our ancestors, it was natural for both men AND women to have multiple partners. If OP is one of those women, then she ought to consider an open relationship. Then he is not cheating; she gets to keep her options open, while continuing to see him. But she has to be able to separate sex and “in-love-ness” in her mind to be able to pull this off.
4) If she can’t see herself doing any of the above, then yes, dumping him and cutting him off cold turkey is her only choice.
starthrower68 says
As wise Mrs. Patmore (on Downton Abbey) said, “You can spend too long on one-sided love”.
Marie says
@Frimmel – you know I do get what you are saying. I have male relatives who bemoan the fact that they don’t seem to have that edge that seems to attract women. But I think people get mixed up between having an edge due to a little cocky self confidence mixed with humor and being a real user jerk. The jerk may have some of those confident qualities but he has a lot of negative ones. And if women are falling for these real jerks then I think those women have way more issues than you have time to deal. Go with the woman who has done her research and can tell the difference.
Personally, when I was single I had a lot of men who tried to smooth talk me. I went with my fiancé because he was a straight shooter and genuine and down to earth. The men who had so called game went with other girls who we all knew were insecure needy basket cases. so imo these guys really didn’t gain much other than a big headache!!
Karl R says
Frimmel said: (#51)
“So what you’re saying is that without game your wife wouldn’t have noticed or cared you were a nice guy.”
My wife’s first impression was that I was a nice guy, and she certainly appreciates the nice guys she interacts with. However, my wife knows at least a couple hundred nice guys. She’s never dated most of them.
If I didn’t have game, we probably wouldn’t have ended up in the short-term fling that led to a long-term relationship.
Karmic Equation said: (#52)
“Presumably Karl R was having sex with those women he was dating. As a woman, you could be rounding the bases only if you can’t have NSA sex.”
In general I wasn’t having sex with the women I casually dated. I rounded some bases with some of them. But I’d recommend people do what works for them (and their partners) in that regard.
At best, casual sex will provide short-term fun without long-term consequences. At worst, casual sex creates long-term consequences with less short-term fun than you hoped for.
The long-term benefit of casual dating isn’t the casual sex. It’s keeping your options open instead of getting hung up on someone who isn’t a keeper.
Karmic Equation said: (#52)
“It’s pretty interesting that all the women here are quick to label the guy a cheater without the full story.”
Well, we’re unlikely to get his side of the story. I’m willing to run with whatever definition of “cheating” Elizabeth is using.
Karmic Equation said: (#52)
“So is he cheating? Or did she assume a relationship that doesn’t truly exist?”
That’s an interesting question, but it doesn’t really change my advice.
Elizabeth can either accept a situation where she shares the man with other women, or she can leave and find someone else. She can’t change him.
J says
Karmic- I don’t think what you suggest to he OP will work because she is too far down the road. She cares to much about him ( and wants too many things from him) to just casually sleep with him. She cant just switch that off, not without a serious break. She’ll have to start over with someone new.
Girl in the Midwest says
i feel like this is an example of the dangers of putting too much emphasis on chemistry and not enough on everything else. It’s hard to get it all, I think you might have to choose something to compromise on.
Also, to the OP: incentives matter. He’s not going to change unless his world changes. And most of the time, people don’t change when they’re in a relationship. If they change at all, it’s during times when they are alone and have a lot of time for introspection.
Lia says
@Sparkling Emerald #31
Thanks! I have started dating again and I have joined Evan’s FOCUS coaching so I am doing posting there. If you are ever so inclined to try the FOCUS group you would be an fabulous asset. I have always loved your wisdom and humor!
Barbi Girl says
Elizabeth, you have NO IDEA what kind of STD’s that a$&h#%e is exposing you to! If anything, love and respect yourself enough to not put your health at risk – seriously!
Lia says
@ Frimmel #33
“This letter vindicates every “nice guy” TM who ever said women just want jerks.”
How so? A woman who is obviously addicted to a man who treats her like trash writes a letter and somehow it validates the idea that women just want jerks???? I am a woman (yup I double checked and sure enough I am) and I can tell you that I like the nice guys. I like men who are gentlemen and who treat me with respect. I have friends who are women too and the like nice guys too. So how does this letter prove that women want jerks?
Clare says
Frimmel,
Evan has said many times that being a nice guy, on its own, is not enough. Evan says that it’s a nice guy with balls who tends to get the girl.
As a woman, I have to agree. I am somewhat weary of nice guys bemoaning their fate that women only want bad boys and friendzone them and won’t give them a chance. It would be like a woman who contented herself with having zero sex appeal complaining that men were not approaching her. You may be a nice person with many wonderful qualities, but attraction takes that “something something” which all of us have a responsibility to cultivate. It’s not enough to be nice. You have to have “game” in the sense that you have to be able to flirt, not be a pushover, and cultivate certain things which are attractive to the opposite sex.
For a man, it might be a certain “take charge” attitude which makes women feel attracted; for a woman, it might be flirty, feminine mannerisms and a way of speaking that men tend to be attracted to. These are just examples. The list is endless of what people could potentially be attracted to, but I think most people know deep down that not enhancing your attractiveness somehow and resting on being a nice person isn’t quite enough.
Attraction is really not a meritocracy. It’s just that, attraction. It’s not a game, but it’s only smart to know what the other sex finds attractive.
Kiki says
@Karmic 52.
I like your comment very much. Besides saying things that are very true, it lacks the implicit (or explicit) “how can you be so stupid” element that some of the other posts contain. This type of shaming distracts attention from the fact that such a relationship can be meaningful in itself if the OP is very clear about her own needs and the limitations of trying to change another person (which it seems to me she intuitively knows but probably needed to hear once again).
The very charming Casanovas I have met in real life end up married to women who are very accepting and happy to turn a blind eye. I personally could never live with that (too big of an Ego myself) so I married a less charming person. Cest la vie.
Frimmel says
I get the sense that when someone mentions “game” what is heard is “Lies and manipulations so men can pump and dump a lot of women.”
I’m using it more in the sense of “productive game” in a more useful and detailed description of “Have masculine energy.” The corollary is the difference between “have feminine energy” and “mirroring.”
Without dates there are no serious relationships. Without game there are no dates.
Stix says
Frimmel-
To a woman, the word swagger might be better understood. A little attitude, a little confidence, a masculine stride.
Nice guys with swagger….Yum.
Frimmel says
Karl R in #55: “Frimmel said: (#51)
“So what you’re saying is that without game your wife wouldn’t have noticed or cared you were a nice guy.”
My wife’s first impression was that I was a nice guy, and she certainly appreciates the nice guys she interacts with. However, my wife knows at least a couple hundred nice guys. She’s never dated most of them.
If I didn’t have game, we probably wouldn’t have ended up in the short-term fling that led to a long-term relationship.”
That is entirely what I’m getting at and Clare is echoing in #61.
I also think we’re getting a bit caught up in jerk/alpha/having game which I’m being a bit fluid with because there is a bit of overlap and ambiguity.
This guy is only a jerk because Elizabeth isn’t getting what she wants and she is defining his behavior. A guy who has been friend-zoned by Elizabeth only hears her complain about him and how she caved and let him come over after a swoon inducing text. So from friend-zoned guy’s perspective he’s a jerk for not making her “happy.” But the jerk is getting sex from Elizabeth so friend-zoned guy is getting conflicting information. But after a bit of thought it isn’t conflicting at all for friend-zoned guy is it?
Of course since he is learning this guy’s behavior through Elizabeth’s filter and not Elizabeth’s guy’s own mouth he gets it wrong. This leads to “bad game.”
Of course his texts probably only make her swoon because she can’t tie him down. Because he isn’t hers. Which would be the other reason the answer to this is “No” is even if she “wins” and ties him down she’ll lose because he’ll cease being what it was she wanted.
“Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting.” –Spock
Lia says
Clare # 61
Spot on!! There is a big difference between a nice guy who puts himself out there and cultivates the masculine traits that are appealing to women and the “nice” guy who is timid and afraid to make an effort.
As a woman I know that men are visual so I do what I can to look my best. I don’t whine about how men only see the surface because I know that it is not true. Looking my best as well as treating people with kindness, living a life of integrity, and being feminine makes me a better partner for someone (as well as happier with myself). Sure there are men who only care about the outside, but I have no interest in them anyway so why should I care that they will only chase youth and beauty?
Julia says
Frimmel #63
This comments makes sense to me, its not exactly the tune you were singing previously. Before I knew what “Game” was I knew when men had game. I get that, its confidence and the ability to charm. Its basically knowing how to interact with people. Plenty of nice men have game but not all men who don’t have game are nice. I think if you want to do well with women, you should be confident, act masculine but also treat her with kindness and consistency. If you just do the first two, women of quality won’t stick around.
Sparkling Emerald says
Frimmel@33 – To put it another way, if you can conclude something about ALL women from this ONE woman’s experience, then let’s flip it around. Why can’t women conclude that ALL men are jerks from this one post, and treat them accordingly ?
I realize that MANY people end up in BAD relationship with VERY ATTRACTIVE people. By bad, not just cheating, but inconsistency, verbal abuse, physical abuse, domineering (different than dominant), etc. Ever see a man who is totally whipped ? I have seen men who are whipped by plain janers, but usually it’s the totally hot women who PW guys.
I think the real issue is ATTRACTIVENESS, not niceness vs not niceness. People tend to fall for very attractive people. People who are very attractive are used to having the world handed to them on a silver platter, and being allowed to treat people like dirt, and those people will come crawling back begging for more. Of course not ALL attractive people are like that, but when most of the world gives someone on a pass on unacceptable behavior, well, human nature being what it is, that unacceptable behavior gets re-inforced.
I admit that I am not immune to extreme attractiveness either, I have to FORCE myself to stay away from good looking, charismatic a-holes. But there is a whole world of people who are attractive enough, and who’s attractiveness is largely self cultivated, through confidence AND good manners, and wasn’t handed to them by mother nature herself in the form of perfect good looks, and then a jerk-like personality that was forged by a society that showers people born with perfect good looks with a sense of entitlement.
Also, I have seen a lot of guys moan about how girls reject them because they are “too nice”, and getting to know these guys, turns out they are very nice at all. Or there is some other major thing going that is a turn off, that has nothing to do with “nice”.
I prefer guys who aren’t drop dead handsome, but are attractive enough to be desirable, but not so ga-ga in the looks department that they have an arrogant sense of entitlement.
Marie says
I think people are making this complicated. Men and women are attracted to people who have a strong sense of self and can enforce their personal boundaries. Sometimes this can come off as bitchy or being an asshole when that’s not the case. Game is just one way of showing you are in control of your boundaries. People who have strong boundaries are seen as respecting themselves and their value is increased in the eyes of the opposite sex.
Sometimes women get confused between being attracted to a guy with strong personal boundaries and a true asshole (a guy who is purposely lying and using people for his own gains, a narcissist) who also happens to exude the same confident qualities. For “nice guys” who are upset at being passed over, the answer is not to go out and hurt other people (become a jerk) but to cultivate stronger personal boundaries. Learn to say No. I run into men at work all the time who are drowning in busywork all the time because they say yes to everything even when they know they shouldn’t. Yes they are known as the nice guys but who gets promoted? The guys who are selective about what they do and therefore have results. Don’t do the equivalent in dating.
Goldie says
Marie 69,
“For “nice guys” who are upset at being passed over, the answer is not to go out and hurt other people (become a jerk) but to cultivate stronger personal boundaries. Learn to say No.”
AMEN!! It is actually a much bigger problem than most people think. I’ve been doing somewhat of a relationship inventory recently, in the sense that I went over the three biggest relationships I’ve had in my life (including my marriage) to see if there was anything in common that made the relationships go bad and ultimately end. Sure enough, all three of these men were unable to say “No”. For the “nice guys” on here who feel that they have the same problem, this is what the ramifications of it are for your partner, in my experience at least. I’ve seen one of the two things happen. In one case, the man kept saying yes to people who used him in a whole variety of ways and made his life hell. Because I was involved with him at the time, my life, and my children’s lives, would’ve become equal hell if we’d gotten closer, included our children in our life together etc. I actually ended it with him for that exact reason – I did not want to see my kids dragged into the nightmare that was his life. He has since learned to put his foot down and establish boundaries, and life has improved significantly, both for him and his close ones.
Another thing, which is what I’ve seen happen most of the time, is that the man keeps saying yes to everyone and everything, but there really isn’t enough of him to go around, and eventually he comes to the point where he has to say No to someone. And when at that point, he usually chooses the one person that he feels most at ease to say No to – his wife or girlfriend. What eventually happens is that he bends over backwards to keep his friends and relatives happy in every way, in the meantime his partner’s needs are not being met, and when she complains, he makes it look like it is all in her head, or it is all her fault. Been there, done that, went for seconds. Never again. Next time I’m dating, I’ll be looking for a man with a backbone. Because as I have already found, if he doesn’t have one, then down the road, there’ll be hell to pay for me.
So I plead with you, nice guys: if you don’t know how to set boundaries or say no, learn. It’s not the matter of you ending up with less money, promotions, dates etc. which I am sure most of you will tell me is something you can live with. It is not about you. It is about the woman you’re with. You will hurt this woman unless you learn to say no. And I am sure none of you want that.
Fusee says
@Lia #58: Soooo happy you’re back! Congrats on joining Focus… You sure walk the walk! Good luck with dating, and keep us posted : )
@Marie #54 and Clare #61: Spot on! I totally agree!
My husband is a nice and respectful man who has integrity. Yet he pursued me, seduced me, and took charge of our early dating relationship. After over two years, his texts still make me swoon, and he still make me feel like a tigress in bed. We never had crazy chemistry, the initial excitement of the beginning wore off after two months. There is such a thing as a middle way.
Karmic Equation says
@Kiki 62
Thanks 🙂
I wonder if “jerk”-shaming of men is equivalent to “slut”-shaming of women? Both are to control that sex’s access to the opposite sex or expression of sexuality.
The first person in this thread who used the term “jerk” to describe OP’s guy, interestingly, is a guy, not the OP. And if I remember correctly, Karl T @ 23 is on the shorter side and may have some resentment of men who easily live the casanova lifestyle that is harder for him to achieve. After that a lot of folks (some of the women posters, and practically *all* the male posters, interesting, no?) jumped onto “the OP’s guy is a jerk” bandwagon.
OP doesn’t view him as a jerk. Her term is the more benign “casanova”, which speaks to her perception of and feelings towards him as an entire person, not just his one behavior. The only “jerky” thing he does is (maybe) cheat — and I say maybe because it’s not uncommon for a woman in a lower league than the guy to think the guy is her bf simply because they’re sleeping together when he’s never given her the label.
Whatever the case may be, the OP doesn’t consider him a jerk. In fact she really digs him for the way he DOES TREAT HER when he’s with her — “he’s … SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear” — Where in that is he “treating her badly” and acting like a “jerk” ?
Some women can tolerate cheats. Jackie Kennedy did. Hilary Clinton does. (and some don’t ala Elen Nordigren, but she’s actually a higher league than Tiger) — Particularly if those jerks have some coveted status, such as fortune, fame, or power. In the case of the OP, it’s his handsomeness or his skills as a lover. There is nothing wrong with her wanting that. None whatsoever.
I don’t think she’s wrong for wanting his positives. And for her, seemingly, those positives have outweighed his one negative for FOUR YEARS. By her own tolerances she’s putting a higher value on looks and sexual gratification than monogamy. There is nothing wrong with that.
What’s wrong is her hoping that he’ll change. Maybe what’s wrong is her desire for him to change (not because that’s a dealbreaker, because she’s been ok with it for FOUR YEARS) but possibly because she feels she should want him to change because society, like most people on this board, is telling her that good looks, good treatment when he’s with her, and sexual gratification aren’t enough for a relationship: “Monogamy is king!”
I actually do believe in monogamy. But I also believe in being happy. And, honestly, if I have to give up one, I’d give up monogamy.
@Karl R 55
“At best, casual sex will provide short-term fun without long-term consequences. At worst, casual sex creates long-term consequences with less short-term fun than you hoped for.”
Agreed. And the key word is “hope”. If one doesn’t hope for sex to signify something else, there are no long-term consequences, assuming one practices safe sex.
And I fully agree with your other two points.
@J 56
I don’t agree. She’s been ok with his “cheating” for four years. She can probably tolerate it infinitely…unless her clock is ticking. In which case, she should bail now to start looking for a man more suitable to be a faithful husband.
Notice I didn’t say good father. I know of at least one proliferate dater (maybe cheater, not sure of that) — who married and is now a great father. In fact, I believe fatherhood turned him into a faithful husband because he didn’t want to risk losing access to his children. That and possibly he’s gotten chasing out of his blood.
Joe says
“Game” is not good or bad. It has no volition; it just is. People (men, in this case) who use game can be good or bad, or use game for good or bad intentions. The guy who wants a real relationship with a woman usually needs some game to get her attention. The guy who just wants to bang her also uses game to get her in bed. In most cases the game is the same, just the intentions and ultimate result are different.
J says
Karmic- no doubt that some women could be happy in those situations but not the letter writer, by her own admission. She starts by saying she’s been ‘hanging on’ to a ‘cheating Casanova’ later states that she hopes against hope that he can reform and ‘treat her right’ (Implying that he is not doing so now). And the biggest tell of all, she started reading Evan to learn how to leave the relationship or change him.
she sounds like she’s been trying to wrangle something different from this guy for 4 years and now she’s writing a dating coach. She says she’s ‘in love with a cheating guy’ and her heart is broken. That’s why I think this situation with this guy is not for her.
Chance says
@ Karmic Equation (#72):
“I wonder if “jerk”-shaming of men is equivalent to “slut”-shaming of women? Both are to control that sex’s access to the opposite sex or expression of sexuality.”
I think you’re on the right track. While I think that you’re spot-on about the jerk-shaming, I don’t really see many guys engaging in slut-shaming. I know there are a few women on here that swear up-and-down that men do this, but from my observations, it seems to be much more common for women to do this to other women. I think the motivation behind this is actually to control their own sex’s access to the opposite sex. I see it as a defense mechanism to reign in the competition.
Now, back to the guys: I believe that their shaming tactic of choice is to try and make women feel guilty for not liking “nice guys” (as they put it) and going for the “jerks” (as they put it). Of course, we all know that those “nice guys” aren’t always really all that nice and that the “jerks” are really just more confident. Perhaps the term that we can apply to this tactic is “reverse jerk-shaming” hehe.
ebony says
evan, thankyouthankyouthankyou for the most perfect response to this craziness!
there is absolutely no excuse for letting someone treat you this way!
“…we have all heard about them – where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend…”
that only happens in movies! step away from the television and don’t believe the hype!
Sparkling Emerald says
Frimmel #40 – “The new person you’re dating is not the last person you were dating. But that doesn’t make you blameless.”
What ?????? I have read the whole post and I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. So everyone who is dating someone new is to blame ? To blame for what ? The new person you are dating is not the last person you are dating PERIOD. That holds true for both. So if the last person played with your emotions, doesn’t mean that this person will. If the last person you dated physically abused you, doesn’t mean this person will. If the last person you dated never let you know where you stood or disappeared, doesn’t mean this person will. Are you trying to say that if the last person one dated did something awful, then the next person you date is still somehow to blame ? If the next person you date isn’t blameless, what are you blaming them for ? I am not trying to be dense here, just not understanding what you mean by this, and what you are blaming the new date person.
NO ONE is perfect of course, but I take that to mean that we all have some sort of general short coming. I didn’t think dating started out with the finger of blame pointing squarely at everyone for their human-ness though.
LaFoi says
Marie #69
I appreciate your comment – It is one of the most concise and helpful things I have read on the subject of boundaries in relationships. For many, it can take years to reach this point but knowing it makes all the difference and reaching it is one of the most liberating experiences in the world!
Frimmel says
Sparkling Emerald in #77: re reading comprehension difficulties/my communication failure.
Were they the wrong person, were you the wrong person or did you or they just do something wrong?
If I go into a new relationship unaware of which of my behaviors contributed to the demise of the previous relationship I am being as irresponsible as going into a new relationship with the assumption that the new person is going to treat me the same as the prior one or placing blame on the new person that is not the new person’s to carry.
Also, if I am unaware of my own behavior it is very possible I will end up in a relationship with someone very similar to the last one because I will choose someone based on my un-analyzed contributions to the problem. A man who doesn’t understand he wants to rescue women will continue to end up with women he feels need rescued for example.
I was suggesting that one needs to be careful that even though it is someone new that they aren’t also the “last” person you were dating. It isn’t the players’ fault you keep getting played.
Also if you’re not getting the results you want it is smart to look at the people who are getting the results you want. I was pointing out this is why men end up with “game” in the pump and dump a lot of women sense. They short circuit the deeper introspection of what they want in total for getting ONE thing they REALLY want.
Karmic Equation says
@Chance 75
Yes I did mean that jerk- (or reverse-jerk- 😉 ) and slut-shaming are to control *their own sex’s access* to the opposite sex. That is actually what I wanted to to say, but didn’t. Thanks!
And I agree with you completely. I’ve actually had this discussion about slutshaming with my bff, who’s a hetero male, who said in an are-you-high tone of voice, “Of course, men don’t slutshame. Men love sluts. It’s women who slutshame.” I had to laugh at his incredulous tone as well as his words.
@J 74
If you read her words at face value, then yes, you’re right. But the whole tone of her letter is not “I’m heartbroken, please tell me how to leave this guy, Evan.” It was more like, “Please tell me how if I hang in there, my guy will eventually change for me. Please, Evan, tell me that!” — That’s the subtext to which Evan responded. He’s not telling her “No, don’t leave him” but rather “No, don’t stay. No, he won’t change.”
@Frimmel
What did you do with the real Frimmel? I’ll have second Goldie and agree with you 100% on your posts.
Peter 51 says
But he’s HOT! She may never attract such a hot man again. Everyone else will be an anticlimax. He’s even an exciting bad boy!
J says
Karmic- I get all that. Our difference here is I think she is upset and you don’t. You think, at the end of it all, she’s enjoying herself with this guy and I dont. We have a different take on her tone. Your advice could work for her if she were a ‘cool girl’ but, at least with this guy and at this time, she’s not. Trying to pretend she is satisfied with a slice when she has been angling for and wants the whole pie won’t serve her.
Karmic Equation says
J @ 82
Yes, we do disagree on whether she’s upset or not.
But we’re not that far apart on the possible solution. You just limit her to one option and I’m offering an alternative, with your option being one of them.
The solution really depends on what she wants *MORE*. The relationship of her dreams or the man of her dreams. She can’t have both with this man, that’s the reality.
If she wants the relationship of her dreams, then she needs to next the man. One of my solutions; but your one and only solution — presupposes that a monogamous relationship WITH a hot guy whose a great lover who treats her well when he’s with her will be easy to find.
If she wants the man of her dreams, then she needs to next her “monogamous relationship hopes”. She already has her dream man, right? — This non-conformist solution presupposes that a hot guy who treats her well when he’s with her and who’s also a great lover is harder to find to than monogamy.
With your one and only solution, she may have to settle for a less hot guy to get monogamy; with my non-conformist solution, she has to settle for non-monagamy with the guy she has.
Which is more likely? I don’t know what OP looks like, so I can’t say for sure if your solution is possible.
What I do know is that monogamy doesn’t guarantee happiness and isn’t guaranteed for long-term. The divorce rates are testament to that. Monogamy doesn’t even guarantee monogamy, cheaters are testament to that. Sounds hopeless when put that way, doesn’t it?
But I’m not saying the OP’s situation is hopeless. As long as OP keeps HER OWN options open and accepts a non-monogamous relationship with this man, she can keep looking without giving him up. The only thing she has to give up is her HOPE for monogamy with this man. And the truth of the matter is, she doesn’t have monogamy now. So she’s NOT giving up anything real with the non-conformist solution. She gets to keep the man she has. He IS real. While she keeps looking. That is key. And of course, NOT allowing herself to fall in love with him. If she actively dates other men while she’s with this guy, she’s not likely to fall in love with him.
marymary says
Ooh Karmic, radical!
Should she tell him that she’s seeing other men? And what does she tell the other men?
How about, “I’m seeing someone but it’s not serious”.
Selena says
Karmic #83…
So well thought out. One of the best posts I’ve read on this blog. Kudos. 🙂
Christoff says
Well, I will have to be the voice of dissent here, although I admit in most cases these are the “doomed” type situations. I think often of a couple I know in which the man was very handsome, very much the ladies man, very much about town etc etc etc. Then he did meet an English girl, she played it cool, he pursued her and –according to his own words to me, a colleague and friend–that he THOUGHT he was going to cheat in their marriage but ten years in, had not once. So this can happen.
And ps, an additional thought on all of this, though not directly related. If the so called “nice guys” (who are not always so nice) weren’t, overall, so damn charmless and lacking in true confidence then women wouldn’t be “driven” to the so called bad boys. Maybe women feel this kind of insane attraction to the smooth, charming men for an actual reason—and not just irrational fantasiziing. When Nature says Wow, it is Wow for a reason. How you handle yourself thereafter—which is where most women trip up— is the problem. Not the attraction itself.
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey, Christoff, I remember you as the voice of dissent when you wrote this to me:
“On occasion, Mr. Katz, you are truly crude. There is nothing funny about this, but totally depressing. This is the result of homosexualized media drivel contaminating male-female relationships; the death of masculinity and femininty (or, almost) and just plain cynicism—ugly, rude and crude. And, uh, no, I am not a provincial “rube”… In fact, I am the woman you say does not exist: the “supermodel” type in looks, History degree from an Ivy school, two foreign languages, and brilliant cooking skills. I came on this site as a young widow, looking to learn about dating. I will not be staying any longer.”
What brings you back? Your passionate 10 year relationship come to an end? Nod once if I’m right.
Clare says
Karmic 83,
Your solution could definitely work, and probably be the most fun and most painless solution for her, IF she is able to let go of this idea of having a serious relationship with this man. If she can truly maintain a level of emotional detachment and distance from him, and fully accept the relationship as casual, and not hold out hope that it’s going to turn into something more, then yes, I think this is the perfect solution.
I think it all hinges on her ability to emotionally detach from this man to quite a large extent.
marymary says
Christoff
As you say you’re a widow I surmise that’s the reason your relationship ended?
I can’t pretend to understand how that feels but you need to be in a place where you’re not comparing men with your husband. I’m going to hazard that would take at least two years. No advice can circumvent that and I can imagine that it would even irritate you. Some things you have to sit with yourself and let time pass.
I’m not driven to bad boys. If I was, that would be my problem to solve. I wouldn’t blame anyone else for it. I don’t even see this type as bad, but rather impulsive, immature, silly, and show-offy. Yes that can be fun, it gives us permission to let our hair down and be “bad” ourselves, but I wouldn’t build a life on it. We call them boys and not men for a reason.
Your example is different, the husband didn’t cheat. The OP’s partner is cheating. No point giving her false hope. Karmic has nailed what the OP’s options are. Not that I think the OP will like them but that’s the reality.
Frimmel says
Did any one see the Daniel Craig version of “Casino Royale?” Bond is playing poker with the bad guy suspect. Andhot Solange (so hot she tries pre-teen boys to early puberty) comes in and he’s a jerk to her. Bond seduces Solange and in the midst of their making out says, “So many nice guys. So many chances to be happy. Why can’t nice guys be more like you?”
“Then they would be bad.”
J says
Karmic- I deinitely see your point. And I’m not against a non-conformist view! She is already in love with him though, so there is the matter of that. That’s why I said she couldn’t shift anything with him, if she was going to try that, without some sort of break first (time apart/space).
Karmic Equation says
@Clare 88
Absolutely! She does need to emotionally detach but probably not the way you mean it.
I think a lot of people here take “emotional detachment” to mean to *discontinue loving* someone. That isn’t what it means. Yes, she should emotionally detach, but not from him, but rather from the relationship outcome or from her hopes or even from her “in-love-ness”. She can love him, but she shouldn’t let that love control her.
Excerpted from wikipedia (emphasis mine)
[Emotional] detachment does not necessarily mean avoiding empathy; rather it allows the person space needed to *rationally choose whether or not to be overwhelmed or manipulated by such feelings.* Examples where this is used in a positive sense might include emotional boundary management, where a person avoids emotional levels of engagement related to people who are in some way emotionally overly demanding, such as difficult co-workers or relatives, or is adopted to aid the person in helping others such as a person who trains himself to ignore the “pleading” food requests of a dieting spouse, or indifference by parents towards a child’s begging.
@marymary 84
I’ve never met a man who’s asked me if if I was seeing anyone. I wouldn’t disclose it unasked. And I suppose if they did ask, my response would be to tilt my head quizzically and deflect by saying, “Why do you ask? Are you seeing someone I need to know about?” And listen to what they say.
No, she doesn’t have to tell the guy she’s dating that she’s dating others. And we’re all on board that he’s cheating…and therefore believe that he hasn’t disclosed to her, so she’s under no obligation to disclose to him. As she starts to date other people, she’ll be less available to him and THEN he might ask if she’s seeing other people. At that point she can disclose to him then or do the head tilt “Why do you ask?” thing.
Up to her. She’s living in Karmic’s “women have the power” world now 😉
@Selena 85
Thank you.
@J 91
It doesn’t sound like they’re living together so OP just living her life can create the distance between them (e.g., working late, going out with gfs instead of him, etc.) without any “formal” break ups.
If he’s a cheater, she doesn’t owe him any explanations on why she’s all of a sudden less available to him.
Karmic Equation says
Oops…correction to #92
I have told guys “I have a boyfriend” if I indeed had a boyfriend or simply wasn’t interested.
I’d bet a million dollars that all hetero women have done that!
Goldie says
KE 92.
I have a question re emotional detachment, based on my recent experience. How do you practice emotional detachment from a SO, without giving him the impression that you’re not fully invested, are holding yourself back, are not returning his feelings, etc? I like the idea of not letting the feelings control me, but I don’t know how to realistically do it without coming across as cold, unemotional etc. Or is this only recommended for situations such as Elizabeth’s, and the rest of us should go “all in”?
Karl R says
The Casino Royale quote: (#90)
“So many nice guys. So many chances to be happy. Why can’t nice guys be more like you?”
“Then they would be bad.”
There is some truth to that quote.
Despite what we like to think about self-determination, our the choices we make are heavily influenced by external conditions. We pay our taxes because we want to avoid getting audited, fined and thrown in prison. If we could avoid paying taxes (by paying lawyers and accountants to find legal loopholes), we would do as the wealthy do and avoid paying those taxes (to whatever extent possible).
The wealthy have ways to avoid paying taxes and avoid the negative consequences. Very few of them choose to pay taxes when they have other options.
A man who is “SO devastatingly handsome, and SO charming, and SO romantic” doesn’t experience the same consequences that most of us do. If a less handsome, less charming and less romantic man were to cheat on Elizabeth (or string her along in a non-exclusive relationship) she would dump him in a heartbeat. Most women would dump him under those circumstances.
Very few women will dump Mr. Devastatingly Handsome. So even if Elizabeth chooses to break up with him, he can quickly find another attractive woman willing to step up and replace her. He still doesn’t pay the same consequences as everyone else.
Some people will decide to play be the rules, even when they know those rules are optional. Many won’t.
Goldie asked: (#94)
“How do you practice emotional detachment from a SO, without giving him the impression that you’re not fully invested, are holding yourself back, are not returning his feelings, etc?”
There are three possible ways.
1. Mirroring. It works in most situations, but not so much in Elizabeth’s situation, where the man appears to be substantially more involved/engaged than he actually is.
2. Acting. You act engaged/involved even though you’re actually detached.
3. Compartmentalize and be entirely in the moment. You’re not emotionally detached when you’re together. You are emotionally detached when you’re apart.
I prefer the first and third method. Mr. Devastatingly Handsome is probably using either the second or the third method.
Goldie asked: (#94)
“Or is this only recommended for situations such as Elizabeth’s, and the rest of us should go ‘all in’?”
If one person is emotionally invested, there’s no reason for the other person to remain emotionally detached.
Ruby says
Goldie
<<How do you practice emotional detachment from a SO, without giving him the impression that you’re not fully invested, are holding yourself back, are not returning his feelings, etc?>>
In Elizabeth’s situation, the only way anything is going to change is if she shakes things up. Her man is happy with the status quo, as he has everything he wants. She wants him to see a shift in her behavior. That can come about by telling him that she’s not getting her needs met, and is going to find someone more available (break up), or by limiting her own availability. If a man is making himself available, the detachment isn’t necessary.
Now after 4 years, limiting her availability to someone who also isn’t available is probably not going to change things much, although I wouldn’t discount it if that’s the road she decides to take. Heck, even a break-up is probably not going to change anything, but it’s probably her best option. Even if nothing does change, at least she’ll be free to find someone who will treat her better.
And seriously, I don’t care how handsome or charming a man is; he’s not worth much if he isn’t honest and cannot be faithful to you. Certainly there are attractive, nice men out there who aren’t disrespectful, “cheating Casanovas”.
Tom10 says
Elizabeth #96
“Certainly there are attractive, nice men out there who aren’t disrespectful “cheating Casanovas”.
Are there for Elizabeth though? And if there are why hasn’t she found one in the last four years?
——————
Let’s call a spade a spade: she’s dating out of her league and both of them know it. That’s why they’re both behaving the way they are.
As already noted she’s hooked on dating a hot guy, the likes of which she mightn’t meet again. He’s only dating her because he’s too lazy to find a woman he’s really interested in. So he strings her along cheating whenever opportunities arise, thus getting the best of being single and in a relationship.
I’ve seen this situation so many times in real life — it’s astonishing to witness what people will tolerate when dating someone devastatingly attractive.
I can’t really blame her though. It must be so difficult for women to know that they can sleep with hot guys, but also to know that these guys won’t commit. If only men had the chance to sleep with devastatingly beautiful women who weren’t interested in us — consequentially treating us poorly — I reckon most of us would take it. Sigh.
No matter what she does he will always perceive her as being below his league, therefore, dating other men might help her move on emotionally, but it won’t affect him enough to take her seriously. And even if it does it will only be temporary.
Karmic laid out her options pretty well in #83: accept the situation as it is, or move on.
Karmic Equation says
@Goldie
I plan to answer your Q fully, but I need some time to put my thoughts together on that. I’m sorry about your recent breakup. You’ll get through it. We’re all here for you.
————-
To all ladies here who’ve recommended OP dumping her dream guy…
Correct me if I’m wrong, but many of you have commented that you can’t have NSA sex with a man because sex bonds you to him.
Then don’t you think it’s pretty callous of you to suggest to the OP to next the man-of-her-dreams with whom she’s been having fantastics sex with for FOUR YEARS, just like that? If you bond to a guy after one bang, how bonded do you think the OP is after a couple of hundred bangs?
As well, in other threads, where the OP has indicated that she’s dissatisfied with her man (he goes to strip clubs; he has pictures of naked women on his phone; he goes salsa dancing) — where clearly the man is not the man-of-her-dreams, few or none of you have recommended that she next the man, but rather that the man should change to accommodate the OP — simply because she has a monogamous relationship with that man.
I’m proposing if the OP simply changes her expectations for the relationship (no monogamy required)–which keeps the relationship as status quo–she can continue to see the man of her dreams, so doesn’t have to suffer the unbonding effects–while looking for the relationship of her dreams with someone else. The OP gets to keep what she has while looking for what she wants more. You could almost say that I’m suggesting she uses the man for sex and companionship while looking for a better relationship. Why don’t you gals want her to be empowered? You’d rather her be alone, celibate, and searching for Mr Right like yourselves?
If “…attractive, nice men out there who aren’t disrespectful, “cheating Casanovas” are so easy to find, why are there so many single-and-searching ladies on this board? Shouldn’t each of you have yourself one of those now? They abound for OP. Why not for you?
Finding a guy you really dig is difficult. Serendipity plays a big part and is out of your control. Changing your expectations? Easier to do simply because that’s within your own control.
Dina Strange says
There are some absolutely beautiful high heel shoes…that make my legs look long, but wearing them is incredibly painful and i always end up with blisters that last for weeks if not months. Why to date a man that looks good but hurts your heart?
Yeah, sex is great, he says nice things, blah blah but smoking crack is great and feels good too…yet consequences are incredibly destructive. Point is if you want pain, go read a finance book or work out but don’t stay with a loser.
Kiki says
Goldie,
I do not know what people here mean by emotional detachment. In my opinion, the human brain is distressed when you have a belief but act in a way that contradicts it. Its called cognitive dissonance in psychology and it means eventually you change either your beliefs or your behavior.
In other words, if you love someone but wish to act like you dont, you will eventually show it ( amor tussisque non celantur) or will stop loving him. Or, to make it even simpler, you have to kill some of the love you carry for the peson, in order to compartmenatlize, disengage or whatever its called. Just my two cents.
Ruby says
KE #98
<<If “…attractive, nice men out there who aren’t disrespectful, “cheating Casanovas” are so easy to find, why are there so many single-and-searching ladies on this board? Shouldn’t each of you have yourself one of those now? They abound for OP. Why not for you?>>
I don’t know how old the OP is, but if she’s younger, yes, they are not impossible to find. Perhaps not a dime a dozen, but not impossible. I know these men – my friends are married to them (almost all of my under-35 friends are married). I’ve already commented in previous posts as to why the OP might be in the relationship she’s in, so I won’t repeat that here, although low self-esteem might be another factor. I’ve just started dating a really nice guy who’s attractive, but not devastatingly handsome, and personally, I’d rather be single than settle for a less than satisfying relationship even if the man is uber-hot. As Dina said (#99), “Why to date a man that looks good but hurts your heart?”
Rose says
In truely helpless abusive life threatening situations we dissasociate and compartmentalise, emotionally detach for self preservation. An example would be a child with an abusive parent. Their brains would do this to protect them. Or in car accidents, hostage situations, rape muggings etc. This happens on a subconscious level
This changes our brains and if we do not get help to release the trapped trauma and learn how to reconnect we can get ptsd and also put ourselves in futher abusive situations.
I would not want to be encouraging anyone to compartmentalise and emotionally detach from themselves on a conscious level. Quite the oppsite in done in therapy. And people who have been or are in in absusive situations have to learn how to connect and listen to their emotions and then take the best action for their higher good.
The first thing that is reccommended for any women to do in situations like the OP’s in to stop sleeping with him so she will start to break the bond if what she wants is a monogomous relationship. To help her be able to get to the point of no longer wanting him as if monogomy is what she wants and he doesn’t he can’t possibly be the right man for her. But her judgemnet and thinking are clouded on this because she is sleeping with him and has become hormonally bonded.
The lesson is if you want monogomy don’t sleep with a man who doesn’t want that with you, unless you want to end up hormonally attached to someone who doesn’t want the same as you.
They are simply not a match in this area which is an extremly important one to be a match in if you want to be happy.
If she was happy about this she wouldn’t be here asking for Evans advice.So now she needs to take adult responsibilty for her own happiness.
judy says
Karl 95 – this lady has dumped “Mr. Devastatingly Handsome”. He was absolutely miffed about it because no woman had ever done that. There’s always a first time for everything.
I think he learned more about that, than in his lifetime of screwing around. He really was incredibly handsome, and used women. He lost the woman of his dreams, once (that was me :o) but the other one treated him like he treated his women…..by keeping him on the backburner.
Maybe that’s why he treated women so badly – but then, I never did find out why he was left on the backburner, wishing and hoping for her to come back. So it may have been a real issue for both of them.
Stix says
Kharmic Equation
I suggested she get herself out of the situation. I am in a well established and happy relationship. I don’t know if I could be where i’m at now, if I hadn’t dumped my “cheating cassonova”. Although for me the idea of having sex with him was pretty disgusting at that point. I wanted nothing to do with having him fulfill my needs. It was the most empowering experience of my life…To forgive, walk on, and release him from my life while still holding him in my heart as a friend. Someone I do care about.
I am able to have NSA sex. I bond more through shared humour and play than I do through sex. Actually I have been learning to bond through sex to feel deeper feelings of intimacy.. NSA sex is (was) easy, and my current committed and monogamous relationshop started as a NSA sexual relationship. It was moved along by him, at a decent pace with my agreement.
Point being, I want to empower women. Definitely not take their power away. I believe there are many ways to do that, and putting yourself first is a good step to take. Your way works just as well, although she is making him overly important, IMO, and i’m not sure putting him in the category of “dream man” and using him to fulfill needs is an empowering approach. These men are actually a dime a dozen. I’m sure she could find one or more that she isn’t already emotionally bonded to. The thing about NSA sex is, it doesn’t work if you want the person to yourself, and they aren’t in agreement. That’s fundamentally opposed to what a healthy NSA sex partnership needs to look like. Feelings of jealousy, pining, covetous emotional bonds do not jive with NSA sex.
it will be far easier to find a new partner, than to begin a detatchment process with someone while still hanging out and sleeping together.
Stix says
Just the thought of beginning a detachment process while staying with a man is tiresome. That’s a lot of effort just to keep hanging onto one specific man for sex.
Exhausting :p
Julia says
For once I agree with Rose. Emotionally healthy people don’t detach themselves and compartmentalize relationships, that’s what people in denial do. I am going to go ahead and assume the OP wants a man to marry and have children with, why else would she be writing Evan? If this is the case there is no point in sticking around with this man. My guess is she is not healthy though and is probably already compartmentalizing her relationship with him, separating the good qualities (handsome and charming) from the glaringly bad qualities (he cheats on her.) I’m not sure why anyone would suggest her situation is idea and having her needs met.
As far as the women here not having found their great man, Jesus, what a cynical way to view the world. Sometimes the search for something really good takes awhile, I am not ready to throw in the towel and allow a man to use me for 4 years like the OP. NSA sex is one thing but this is NOT NSA sex for the OP.
Nicole says
@Tom10 #97, it’s a pretty big stretch to claim this woman is dating out of her league b/c she is staying with a cheating cad.
Women of all levels of beauty get cheated on. Sometimes by equally hot men, sometimes by average men, sometimes by ugly men (see, this is where swagger and confidence can be a GREAT equalizer for you all). I think the the big issues are that she is in love with a man that doesn’t love her, and perhaps she is too invested his his superficial qualities to dump him for a man who has better ones, or is fearful that she can land someone as hot.
If he was out of her league with regard to looks I don’t even think he’d be using for sex 4 years out. But hot or not, as we age the number of women willling to tolerate his kind of behavior diminishes, so there is value in keeping her around, b/c he may not have a pretty girl who is willing to invest so little to get nothing in return.
But yeah, considering how many people who are considered to be the most “beautiful” in the world have been cheated on, I think it’s a bit much to assume that is the problem.
She needs to leave, and she needs to stop thinking that looks are so important that she should ignore bad character and someone who clearly doesn’t love or possibly even like her.
Also, it’s funny the Frimmel was complaining about game but actually defined it as having more confidence b/c I was assuming he/she was complaining about needing to be a player to get women. But how could a man think that without stepping up anything is going to happen, and that is somehow the woman’s fault for not noticing the silent nice guy in the crowd. That hardly makes them superficial.
As Karl R said, his wife had orbiters but it sounds like he was the only one who manned up and asked her out. (And probably flirted and made sure she was aware of who he was and that he was interested).
Karmic Equation says
@Stix 104
“Feelings of jealousy, pining, covetous emotional bonds do not jive with NSA sex.”
Agreed. However, those feelings while justified in a monogamous relationship are not good feelings to exhibit in ANY relationship, even a monogamous one. So, OP can try to learn to manage those emotions in THIS relationship or learn to manage them in a NEW one. Why go through the hassle/stress of getting comfortable with a new guy while also learning to manage her negative emotions?
“It will be far easier to find a new partner, than to begin a detatchment process with someone while still hanging out and sleeping together.”
Is it? I disagree. Let’s just say she has a George Clooney lookalike, how many George Clooney lookalikes have you run into in the past 20 years?
I did demote my bf-gf relationship with my last bf to a FWB relationship because I suspected him of cheating. I had no proof. And he swears he didn’t. However, I know he is a very convincing liar. I still love the dude. I just decided to change the relationship back to one where I don’t have to worry about him cheating or not and freed myself to date other men in the process. He and I get together on a bi-weekly or so basis. And I date and have sex with other men whenever I feel like it. While I don’t like the thought of him sleeping with other women, I don’t obsess about it. Just like I don’t obsess about the bad drivers or the tasks at work I don’t like. My dislike of him dating other women is just as ordinary a dislike as those other ones I mentioned. It’s not a “special” dislike I have to spend extraordinary amount of time dealing with.
The OP just needs to decide for herself which she wants more: the non-monogamous hot guy she has or yet-to-exist monogamous relationship with a yet-to-be-determined-man. You’re telling her it’s better to toss away the coffee mug she has to go search for the Holy Grail. I’m just saying keep the mug and keep using it as she goes searching for the Holy Grail. IMO, all she has to do to be happy with her current situation is acknowledge that the coffee mug in her hands will never be the Holy Grail.
—————–
@Dina 99
What did you do with that pair of high heels? Did you toss it in the trash? Or is it sitting in the back of your closet somewhere? Did you buy any more high heels after that pair? Or did you convert all your shoes to flats?
I bet you still own some heels. Even the ones that gave you blisters. And I bet you’ve even worn them again.
Why didn’t you throw out those heels after they caused you blisters? And why did you buy more high heels after that pair?
It wasn’t easy to throw those shoes out was it? And it was only a pair of shoes, not a human being.
—————–
Ruby 101
“I’d rather be single than settle for a less than satisfying relationship even if the man is uber-hot.”
But my suggestion is for her to consider herself single (she is since he broke the bf-gf contract by cheating) AND sleep with him WHILE looking. She is single and gets to have sex while she’s looking for Mr. Right.
If she has a strong libido like I do, my solution works better than your being “celibate” and single does.
Selena says
I think if the OP has stayed in a relationship with a “cheating Cassanova” for 4 Years, she has probably already been doing a fair amount of emotional/cognitive detaching. How else could one put up with a relationship like this year after year?
She writes about possibly giving an ultimatum, setting boundaries. This might have had some effect THE FIRST TIME HE CHEATED. Why didn’t she do it then? Perhaps because she knew he would just stop seeing her rather than be monogamous to her?
So she chooses year after year to maintain a relationship with a non-monogamous individual despite claiming to want monogamy from him. She “hopes against hope” that he will one day “grow out of it” so to speak and choose to only be with her. I think if one chooses to be in an extended relationship with a non-monogamous person they might examine how important monogamy actually is to them. Perhaps they think it should be, more than they really do want it.
Also, the OP writes: Maybe today I won’t cave in and have sex with him. Maybe today I will tell him he didn’t call for a date early enough and I’m busy Saturday night. Maybe today I will say, “I don’t believe a word you just said. Call back when you can be respectful.”
This doesn’t sound like a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship to me. It sounds more like a relationship that hasn’t progressed much from the casual dating level after 4 years. I wonder if this guy considers himself her boyfriend.?Or does he see her as the constant woman in his rotation?
And I wonder if her description of the situation is less actual cheating and more of a “I wish he would choose ME” kind of thing.
Regardless, she is getting something out of this deal and until she decides she really wants something different it will remain as it is.
Marie says
For me this has nothing to do with sex, cheating, or the murkiness of the relationship. The OP repeatedly says she does not feel respected by him. No amount of changing her views on the relationship after four years will erase the fact that he does not take her seriously. That is until she dumps him and walks away. Fantastic sex is not enough to make up for the hit to your self esteem by not leaving a guy who doesn’t respect you.
Karmic Equation says
@Julia 106
For a professed feminist you are so towing the “females are victims” mentality.
It was within her power to walk away the FIRST time he cheated, which I’m guessing to be within the first year of their relationship. And she could have walked the 2nd time he cheated or the third time he cheated or any of the N times. The fact that she DIDN’T break up with him was a CHOICE she made over and over. She had the power, but chose not to use it. Why not?
I’ll say because she’s addicted to the sex, she admitted as much. That’s not any more wrong or right than a woman who’s addicted to her husband’s bank account or earning potential. At least she’s trading sex for sex.
The fact that she IS addicted to the sex says at least that the guy is not a jerk in bed and he’s giving her pleasure that she is taking. If he were a lousy lover, she would have been out of that relationship long ago.
As for the relationship aspect, I happen to agree dating a cheater is not worthwhile. But I disagree that one should stop f*cking him if he’s good at it and she’s single (which she is and actually has been since the first time he cheated). If she starts actively dating other people, she’ll probably be out of there sooner than later. But continuing to sleep with him will help with the withdrawal symptoms. However, she does have to consciously LET GO THE HOPE of monogamy while in her new FWB relationship, which she doesn’t even have to disclose to him.
Monogamy is not synonomous with good relationship. I’m sure many polyamorous folks will disagree with you. As will all the divorced folks. Monogamy may be ONE aspect of a good relationship, but it is NOT the defining aspect. Thou art brainwashed and knowest it not.
Goldie says
Re emotional detachment, I think it is all in the terms we use. “Emotional detachment” does sound patently unhealthy, but so does “letting your feelings control you”. I for one think there might be some benefits to being in control of our feelings. After all, we do exercise control over our feelings in all other areas of our lives. If we let our feelings lead us, I’d say none of us would be able to hold down a job, none of us that have in laws would be on speaking terms with them, and most of us would’ve had our children taken away by CPS. Somehow we do not give in to any urge that strikes us, though. I just wondered if the same kind of self-control is feasible in relationships, or whether relationships are the only exception. (Have to add that it is probably a good idea to control your feelings in an FWB situation.)
In Elizabeth’s place, I’d totally downgrade the cheating casanova to FWB status and keep him in that position while I’m looking for something more serious. Since he’s so hot and good in bed, might as well get some use out of that. UNLESS she is already addicted to him and cannot keep him as just an FWB. Then I’d advise to just walk away from that guy. FTR, I donate the shoes that give me blisters; or return them to the store if that’s possible. The shoes that only give me blisters if I wear them all day, every day, but will do fine if I only wear them on occasion? Those I keep in the back of my closet, and wear on special occasions. It is up to Elizabeth to decide what category of shoes her bf belongs to.
Chance says
“For a professed feminist you are so towing the “females are victims” mentality.”
Thank you, Karmic, thank you. I wish more women knew that it can be very empowering to actually take responsibility for how their relationships turn out. It can expand their options on how to handle/deal with certain men while they are looking for the right guy. Yet, so many women refuse to take any responsibility, which is why we hear so many claims of men “using” women when they aren’t getting what they want out of a relationship. I think this kind of talk makes women look like helpless children, which they’re not.
Julia says
@Karmic Equation
With all due respect, your arguments seem to just be for the sake of being a contrarian 🙂
So with your first point, feminism doesn’t mean that women are never a victim but I am going to agree and disagree with your point. I believe the woman is a victim but a victim of herself and her own insecurities/bad judgement. Now as far as being addicted, I don’t actually believe in sex addiction but for the sake of argument I will say she is addicted. Now most people would say they only way to break addiction is to remove the substance and detox. One wouldn’t suggest an alcoholic quit drinking by cutting back a little while she figures out how to not drink, right? If this woman didn’t want this man to be monogamous to her, in a relationship with her, I’m sure she could just have casual sex with him but she is currently having casual sex with him and obviously can’t handle it, so how would your suggestion change anything? If she needs sex, she can find sex with a man who she isn’t emotionally invested in. Sex is an incredibly easy thing to come by.
As for monogamy. I want monogamy, you can call me brain washed, whatever. I also have friends who are polyamorous and they are happy, good for them. There isn’t a one size fits all approach to happiness but I know my size so no use in trying on others.
Rose says
Goldie, yes it’s not gooto let them run us or control us. That is different from denying them stuffing them down or pretending and disconecting.
The healthy thing to do is listen and accept them and then be in control of them by taking adult responsibilty and doing what is in our highest good.
So in OP case would be.
She recognises and accepts she feels insecure with men who cheat or do not want to monogomy with her. Doesn’t pretend this doesn’t bother her, deny or make herself wrong for having those feeling. She is connecting and accepting of herself and feelings. The taking adult control and not letting them run her would be to take adullt action and responsibilty for her own feelings by choosing the action in her highest good to only to sleep with a man who also wanted a monogomous relationship with her and didn’t want to sleep around or cheat.
This is the healthy emotionally adultway of staying connected and taking care of our own feelings, rather than expecting someone else to take care of them or trying to control other peoples life choices.
If this man doesn’t want monogomy then he has every right to make that choice. They are not a match. But ignoring and pretendind those feeligs do not exist or don’t matter and emotionally disconnecting is not emotinally healthy.
When someone does that they end up living a lie, being untrue to theminselves, being abused and or heading for some form of addictive substance or activity to numb out the pain they are hiding and don’t want to feel, face and take care of.
That path will you down the road of self destruct not happiness.
So the answer is to start accept what are your real feelings and take adult control of them.
Lia says
@ Karmic Equation
I love that consistent “women have the power” viewpoint you always show. I love the way you look at things.
I love the coffee mug/ holy grail analogy!
@ Selena 109
I agree it does sound more like an, “I wish he would choose ME” rather than a BF/GF relationship where the guy is cheating.
She is not a victim she has made the same choice again and again. On some level this really does work for her.
@ Goldie
Love the shoe analogy!
mara says
NARCISSISTIC PARTNER ALERT!!!!!! RUN AWAY. He is a classic, classic case of NPD. Please do me a favor OP go read the definition of a Narcissist onto Melania Tonia Evans blog !!!
Stix says
Kharmic
I have been in contact with thousands of UBER HOT athletic and talented boys/men since a very young age. I’ve had sex with a handful, and dated none. They don’t impress me. I married a 6 in looks but a 10 in humour and intelligence. I caught him “red handed” so to speak because he got sloppy and I happened upon him. It was a complete surprise, although I knew “something” had been going on with him. He was acting strange.
I’m speaking from my life experience, and hope that if the LW is reading she can have many perspectives to choose from. I did stay after the first time, and left after the second time. I did want a monogamous relationship, and I knew that. I wanted a monogamous relationship with the right person. I knew that my exh was not the right one. He had proven that by lying to me, and manipulating me, for no reason other than his own gain. I get that he had his own issues…And I forgave him but I could find no reason within me, to want to even just fuck that man. Sex was the last thing I would want with him. I no longer trusted him to be honest with me. So I set out and I dated loads of great men and a few not so great men. I was dating 2 great men when the one i’m with asked me to be his gf. I’m still friendly with the other guy. I’m still friendly with my exh!
So you see, from my perspective, there is no reason to hang onto the one who is associated with all those un-productive feelings. Just walk on and meet new men sexully/romantically. What’s not meant to be, is not meant to be.
Stix says
I didn’t look for the right relationship. That’s what I did before I got married. When I got married. During my relationship. After my marriage I looked for the right person. When the right person wanted to go all in with me, I chose to build the right relationship with him, and it’s been an amazing time. Ups and downs, yes. All worth it. We connect, communicate, and trust each other. We are on the same page. I’ve experienced nothing like it.
Sparkling Emerald says
I sure wish the letter writer would come and give us an update. Here we women are arguing over what she “should” do, and how she “should” feel and even if they were ever officially BF/GF or not.
That being said, I’ll add my own 2 cents to the mix. I suspect the LW wrote in knowing that EMK would tell it like it is. She asked if there was any way to get him to commit and be monogamous. LOVED his answer !
She is obviously unhappy in this situation. Doubt that after 4 years she could go from being starry and hopeful that suddenly out of the blue, he’s going to go down on one knee and pull out a ring, to treating him as a boy-toy with casual indifference and stick around and convince herself that it is SHE that is using HIM for NSA sex. She would ONLY be playing the “I don’t love you either” game, in the hopes that he would suddenly realize that he has loved her all along. She wouldn’t REALLY feel casual and indifferent to him, she would only be PRETENDING. I think this “cognitive dissonance” and lying to ourselves is the cause of so many female broken hearts.
Now that EMK has validated that she’s not going to get the relationship she wants with THIS man, (a fact that I think she knew deep in her bones all along), she is free to give him the “I don’t want a buck fuddy” speech or to simply disappear and move on to more hopeful horizons.
Also, I don’t appreciate the men (cough cough Tom10) who come to this blog and speculate on our looks, leagues, etc. That seems to be the typical retort. Instead of debating anything intelligently, just come back with well “She must be ugly (or plain, or beneath his league) GORGEOUS women get cheated on all the time. Just look at the Hollywood set !
Karmic Equation says
@Julia
You obviously know nothing about addiction. Lucky you. Alcoholics who go cold turkey are at risk of DTs. I’m not sure about drug addiction, but they also suffer severe withdrawal symptoms. Regardless, we’ve all heard of nicotine addiction. What do you think the patches are for? In each of those addictions there is a wean off method. Which requires a substitute drug to wean off the original drug. What is the substitute drug for sex? Dildos? They aren’t the same as having a man. But maybe my standards are too high and dildos are acceptable substitutes for most women.
“There isn’t a one size fits all approach to happiness but I know my size so no use in trying on others.”
Absolutely. OP is actually happy with the man. The only thing that makes her unhappy is that he won’t commit. However, the fact that she STILL LIKES the man with whom she REMAINED HAPPy in the non-monogamous relationship for FOUR YEARS, actually demonstrates she can tolerate sharing her man. If she can accept THAT fact she would actually be happy. If she truly needed monogamy to be happy with her man, she would have nexted him by now, because she wouldn’t have been happy with him.
I don’t believe OP is insecure. I believe she’s having a difficult time reconciling her own tolerance to man-sharing against a culture and society that shames a woman who tolerates man-sharing.
IMO, that’s just another form of slutshaming. Any way for a woman to express her sexuality that jeopardizes the accepted one-man:one-woman paradigm is threatening to women who cannot share, or as I like to say, women who don’t have the wherewithal to compete. And therefore women like the OP must be shamed into towing the cultural line that monogamy is the only kind of relationship we should seek.
Because if she doesn’t, now in addition to competing with sluts, a woman who cannot share (or doesn’t have the wares to compete) has to compete with women who can man-share, too. Double-whammy. And as I’ve mentioned in another thread, most women are unwilling to compete like that, because at heart, those women who NEED monogamy are the ones who are insecure. They’re afraid that without monogamy the man will abandon them. Men don’t abandon secure happy women they find attractive. They might want to accumulate more of them, but they don’t abandon them.
marymary says
Sparkling
I agree that her looks have nothing to do with it. He doesn’t fear any consequences because he can simply go out and find another equally attractive woman within a day/month if she leaves him. It’s not because she’s so unattractive he’s not bothered!
Here in the uk, Princess Diana got cheated on and we are still baffled as to why Ashley Cole kept cheating on Cheryl.
Ruby says
KE
<<If she has a strong libido like I do, my solution works better than your being “celibate” and single does.>>
I’m not saying that she should be “celibate” – single women are not necessarily so. I’m saying that she should invest her energies and time into looking for a more appropriate partner. If she wants a FWB in the meantime, find someone she isn’t already in love with or going to fall in love with. It’s not some either-or proposition, like stick with this guy (because he looks like George Clooney) or end up alone and celibate. And let’s not forget, she’s crazy about this man, so she may be exaggerating his good points and putting him up on a pedestal, perhaps in large part because he is so unattainable.
Julia says
@Karmic Equation
You obviously know nothing about addiction. Lucky you. Alcoholics who go cold turkey are at risk of DTs.
Lucky me indeed, I watched my father detox for 4 days in the hospital from alcohol 3 years ago next month. You know what he never did after having detoxed? Had another drink.
As far as happiness. I can only conclude that a woman who writes a stranger asking for him to tell her what she wants to hear, that a man will change his ways for her is patently unhappy. I was with an abusive man for 2 years, I suppose the fact that I was with him for 2 years must mean, to you, that I was very happy being abused for those 2 years. I wasn’t. Correlation is not causation KE. If this woman is happy to share her man she would have just shared him without writing a stranger asking him to validate her beliefs, she isn’t happy, she can’t share him and she would be better to walk away because, eventually, he’s going to stop giving her the sex anyways, might as well find someone who will give her EVERYTHING she needs, not just sex.
judy says
Marymary 121 – I agree with you. He seems to have it all but if she’s letting him make that choice for her, well, that’s too bad.
From what the article says, the prospects for her don’t look good.
What is she thinking of?
Tom10 says
@ Nicole / Sparkling Emerald
Sorry I have a tendency to post late at night when perhaps I’m a tad cranky — maybe I should sleep on it before posting. And it wasn’t just me/men who implied she might be dating a hot guy out of her league:
Marie #8
“Do you feel like he’s what you really deserve and can’t do better?”
Anonymous #20
“I see tons of gorgeous women, not many hot men, they are rare indeed…she probably waited a LONG time to find him, and the replacement will not be easy”
Karmic Equation # 72
“The only “jerky” thing he does is (maybe) cheat — and I say maybe because it’s not uncommon for a woman in a lower league that the guy to think the guy is her bf simply because they’re sleeping together”
Hey I’m not excusing the guy — obviously no-one here is condoning cheating. Rather I was just trying to understand why people keep behaving in a manner that is hurting them. My point isn’t to explain why he’s cheating, rather to understand why is she staying with him in spite of his cheating? Obviously there’s something about him that’s making her act irrationally. My *personal* observation has been that people behave like that when they ‘date up’. They don’t move on because they know how rare it is to actually be able to date up.
Would she accept such behavior if she was dating someone who she felt was lucky to have her — i.e. someone beneath her league? I don’t think so.
One of my friends is in this exact situation. His girlfriend of three years is obsessed with him, whereas he’s ‘meh’ about her and cheats occasionally. I asked him why he bothers going out with her at all, and not just move on to someone he’s mad about. He just shrugs his shoulders and says: “dunno really”. I think he’s just too lazy and likes the way she’ll just do anything/everything for him. Yes he’s a good looking guy, and she’s average/reasonably attractive. I know this is just one example though, which has perhaps colored my take on the op’s situation.
And it’s not specific to women – it works both ways. I.e. the one time I acted like Elizabeth and allowed my boundaries to be ignored happened to be with the most beautiful woman I’ve ever been with. Funny that. She knew she could have almost any guy she wanted, as did I. After feeling like a chump I made a decision never to allow that happen again, no matter how hot she was.
It’s just my take on the situation – can we be friends again? 🙂
marymary #121
“Here in the uk…we are still baffled as to why Ashley Cole kept cheating in Cheryl”.
I’m baffled too as she is beautiful. But again I don’t mean to explain why the op’s boyfriend cheats, rather understand why she tolerates it. If memory serves me correctly Cheryl dumped Ashley after his philandering came to light so that example isn’t applicable to Elizabeth’s situation.
Huni says
I know a man who’s 82 and still a womanizer!
Karmic Equation says
@Julia
I’m sorry about your dad. I’m glad that he’s sober and wish him continued sobriety. And I’m sorry you were in an abusive relationship. But this man isn’t sexually abusing OP, something which I do know something about. Let’s leave it at that.
You cannot correlate an emotionally/physically abusive relationship (where often the woman is TRULY powerless to leave) — with a relationship that the woman admits gives her pleasure.
If you were a masochist I would expect you to enjoy the abuse and maybe you would have willingly stayed in an abusive relationsip in those circumstances. She’s admitted she has a strong libido, so I’m going to go with her enjoying the sex. She doesn’t consider herself abused.
@Lia – Thanks!
@Goldie #112
Agree completely.
And getting back to you regarding emotional detachment.
There’s a difference between feelings and emotions. Feelings are uncontrollable. If something makes us angry, we’re angry, we can’t help it. But we can control how we express that anger, i.e., whether we scream and yell or just grit our teeth. Let yourself feel your feelings, acknowledge the feelings, but control how you express them. That’s how you control your feelings instead of letting them control you. And do #3 from Karl R 95.
I always live in the moment with men. That’s how men live. It’s a good way to live in general.
To not obsess about a man when we’re not together, you’ve just got to train your mind to change the channel whenever you start thinking about him. It used to be difficult. But now my mind automatically does it.
What you do is as soon as you catch yourself thinking about a man, force yourself to think of something else. If you hate the guy, think of something negative, like the awful project at work, or snakes, ghosts, stuff like that. If you like the guy think of something NEUTRAL, “why is the sky blue?”, “how do fish not drown?” — Your mind is your friend. Once you do this and your mind knows what you’re about, it’ll start changing channels for you automatically, so much so that when you WANT to think about a man, it will actually take a huge effort to keep your thoughts focused on him.
@marymary & SE
I think you both misunderstand how “leagues” work. It’s not just looks/status/power but also age.
Part 1 – Age & League
————–
Halle Berry got cheated on in both her marriages. But I believe both times she married younger men, who were also in the 9-10 range. Therefore, even though she’s a 10, she’s a lower 10 than her men because they were younger and also 10’s.
In the Princess Di situation, that’s actually not a league situation, but unfortunate class-obligation thing for them both. They didn’t marry for love but because their country expected that of them. If they had met in a bar, they’d never have gone off together.
Don’t know Ashley/Cheryl.
Part 2 – Looks and League
You’re right, marymary in that the league thing doesn’t affect the guy, when he’s in a higher league.
However, the woman’s behavior is affected because SHE’s in a lower league than the man.
If the woman is in a lower league then SHE will likely accept behavior she wouldn’t accept if she were in a higher league, as per my examples of Hilary Clinton (lower league in both looks and power) and Jackie O (equal league in looks, lower league in power, so nets lower overall). They both accepted cheating in their men.
Elen Nordigren, higher league than Tiger in looks. Thus higher league net…she didn’t accept being being cheated on. Neither did Sandra Bullock.
As much as we’d like to think it’s a “quality” woman who doesn’t accept cheating, it’s only if the woman is in a higher league than the man, who doesn’t accept cheating. Not as good looking or just as good looking but older than the man, she doesn’t usually get to call the shots…unless there’s a dom/sub thing also going on in the relationship.
Karl R says
Karmic Equation said: (#120)
“I don’t believe OP is insecure. I believe she’s having a difficult time reconciling her own tolerance to man-sharing against a culture and society that shames a woman who tolerates man-sharing.”
“However, the fact that she STILL LIKES the man with whom she REMAINED HAPPy in the non-monogamous relationship for FOUR YEARS, actually demonstrates she can tolerate sharing her man.”
I think you’re projecting. Read her letter again. According to Elizabeth, she has a broken heart -and- she doesn’t respect herself.
If that’s your idea of tolerance and happiness, I think we’re defining the words differently.
Sparkling Emerald said: (#119)
“I don’t appreciate the men (cough cough Tom10) who come to this blog and speculate on our looks, leagues, etc.”
Elizabeth is treating her boyfriend like he’s her one-and-only chance to score big. Her boyfriend is treating Elizabeth like a take-it-or-leave it option.
Use whatever terms you want, but the two people most familiar with the situation are treating the boyfriend like he’s a more valuable commodity than Elizabeth.
Why would Elizabeth stay in a lousy relationship for four years? To me, it suggests that she doesn’t believe that she can find an equally amazing man in one year, or four years, or ten years.
Karmic Equation said: (#120)
“I’ve mentioned in another thread, most women are unwilling to compete like that, because at heart, those women who NEED monogamy are the ones who are insecure. They’re afraid that without monogamy the man will abandon them.”
I think you’re projecting again.
Both you and I advocate maintaining emotional distance when in a non-monogamous relationship. Both of us are capable of maintaining emotional distance for an extended period of time. The last time I felt it was necessary, I successfully maintained that distance for three months, even though I was having sex with the woman a few times per week. Furthermore, I was capable of maintaining that distance even though I wasn’t seeing anyone else at that time. (I thought it was possible that she was seeing someone else.)
I don’t feel like maintaining emotional distance with my wife. I prefer to have that emotional closeness, and monogamy is something I’ll willingly accept to get it.
And I’m sufficiently secure in my ability to attract amazing women that I could hold out for the kind of relationship that I wanted. The sixth time was the charm.
Maybe you need to dial back your rhetoric a bit.
Karmic Equation says
Karl R 129,
You and I both know that sometimes what a woman says and what she feels aren’t the same. Yes, OPs WORDS say she’s broken-hearted, but the TONE of the letter is hopeful and pleading not distraught. Elizabeth doesn’t sound any more broken hearted than you or I.
I did mis-write. She’s happy with the MAN. She’s unhappy with the RELATIONSHIP. She can’t change the man, but she CAN change the relationship. I’m being quite logical as well as projecting. I’ll give you that.
Who the heck advocates maintaining emotional distance from one’s spouse? There you go with strawman arguments again. Let’s not go there again, ok?
The sentence you quoted has nothing to do with emotional distance. Additionally, unless you’ve gone through a gender change, that sentence was about women, not sure why you’re injecting what you’re about into that comment.
Marie says
Ok now I am really confused. I didn’t read all the comments so I may have missed something here. Where did we all agree that the OP is happy with the man? She sounds pretty miserable to me. The fact that she’s stayed with him for this long is not a sign of happiness but poor willpower. We should not tell her to make up some excuse to continue poor judgement.
Also, I don’t understand what slutshaming has to do with this. No one said she can’t have FWB or NSA, just do it with someone who treats you with a modicum of respect and not like a piece of trash. Sheesh!
Stix says
You don’t have to be insecure to desire a relationship with one person who wants to have a relationship with one person. I enjoy the dynamic of a one on one relationship. I’m not even opposed to fun sexual activities involving others as long as everyone is gung ho and aware of what’s going on. If the opportunity came up I might partake…I find romantic relationships that involve co-existing and mingling lives does take energy, and it feels nice to not have to focus on more than one person. The dynamic suits me well. It seems to suit my bf well. We are not lacking anything or wanting more.
Anyways my phone can’t seem to handle this topic so I can’t read the comments anymore, i’ll be moving on…
Nice discussion!
Ruby says
KE #128
<<Halle Berry got cheated on in both her marriages. But I believe both times she married younger men, who were also in the 9-10 range. Therefore, even though she’s a 10, she’s a lower 10 than her men because they were younger and also 10”²s.>>
For someone who preaches about culturally-limiting beliefs, you don’t seem to mind perpetuating some of your own. A “lower 10” because of her age? Halle Berry was involved with a gorgeous model 9 years her junior, and he did have a roving eye. FYI, though, all of Halle Berry’s 3 spouses have been exactly her age, including her current husband.
Equating the life-threatening affects of withdrawal from long-term substance abuse to breaking up with man who has not been treating you right for years is a bit of a stretch. I agree with Karl R. Elizabeth isn’t staying with her guy for reasons that appear healthy to me, despite whatever chemistry they share.
Rose says
Halle Berry said that the reason she stayed with an unfaihful man was low self esteem.
She made a man more important than herself.
It was nothing to do with how beaytiful she was on the outside it was how she felt about herself on the inside.
Rose says
And described her Father as a tyranical wife beating alcoholic who left her life when she was four.
Sparkling Emerald says
KE – Please make up your mind about slut shaming. In this thread you said . . .
IMO, that’s just another form of slutshaming. Any way for a woman to express her sexuality that jeopardizes the accepted one-man:one-woman paradigm is threatening to women who cannot share, or as I like to say, women who don’t have the wherewithal to compete. And therefore women like the OP must be shamed into towing the cultural line that monogamy is the only kind of relationship we should seek.
And in another thread you replied to my rebuttal to YOUR slut-shaming
(My rebuttal to you calling women who desire sex only in the context of a relationship “yucky” and compared them to prostitutes)
SE Said“A thinly veiled comparison to prostitution, & lots of judgement. Thanks for shaming us.”
++++++++
Your reply was . . .
A person can’t feel shame unless they feel there is some truth to the statement. If you feel shame, figure out why. Don’t kill the messenger.
I honestly don’t think the OP is responding to any societal imposed “slut shaming” As YOU said, she cant feel shame unless there is some truth to the societal message. There is an equal amount of “prude shaming” in our society as well, and there is a wide diversity of societal voices out there all screaming their dictates as to how a woman could or should express her sexuality.
I think that after 4 years of fooling herself into thinking she was OK with sharing “her man” (if he ever truly was hers or said he was) she is finally sick of it, and ready to move on to something more intentional. She still hopes that THIS man will magically discover that he really does love her and want commitment, monogamy, etc. but he doesn’t. EMK’s message is VERY unequivocal. (that’s why I LOVED it)
Just because she has endured it for 4 years doesn’t mean she is OK with it, she is hoping against hope that it WILL CHANGE. THAT’s most likely the reason she hangs in there. You might as well say that a compulsive gambler really enjoys the havoc that has been wrecked on his life due to his gambling addiction, because he has been at it so long. When the truth is, he still hopes he will win the big jackpot. So he will continue to gamble away his paycheck, his savings account, his VISA debt limit, etc., all in the far fetched hope of hitting the big time. Every time s/he is ready to walk away, he gets a teeny-tiny little win. Perhaps $200 from the slots or $500 from a lotto ticket. However, the OP, if she WANTS marriage and motherhood, she is gambling away her most fertile and most marriagable years. Sure, the thrill of intoxicating sex with a charismatic alpha male is delicious. But it can short circuit your long range goals. What was fun and delicious for a the first month or two, isn’t necessarily a good time 4 years later. 4 years later, it is likely a bad habit and possibly an addiction.
However, there isn’t enough info in the OP to know EXACTLY the lowdown, but judging from many factors, and the fact that she chose to write to a coach who advocates for love and marriage, I think the OP is NOT happy in her situation.
By the way, since you seem to be so anti “slut shaming” (as am I) perhaps you might want to stop your own brand of slut shaming. Yes, you do a kind of weird reverse slut shaming. You make feeble attempts to shame women who want sex in the context of a committed relationship, to convince them that they are no better than yucky whores.
Look, you are obviously not the typical woman. You can have casual sex and not bat an eyelash. You don’t even seem remotely interested in falling in love. You have a competitive, masculine quality about you, and you constantly brag about your ability to stay detached from the men you are having sport sex with. But I’m sure you can ramp up the feminine charm if you are in competition with another “she-devil”, but your core personality is a highly masculinized and competitive.
I’m glad women like you exist. You give player men a taste of their own medicine. But most women aren’t like you, and don’t appreciate your strange brand of “slut shaming” either.
You are not the typical woman KE, and what works for you doesn’t work for most women. I’m glad your free wheeling sexuality is satisfying to you, but I really find it annoying that you think that your niche brand of female sexuality is what ALL women should experience, and those woman who don’t kow-tow to your free spirited ways are somehow whores.
Karmic Equation says
@Rose 134 – Thanks for the clarification!
@Ruby 133
I don’t make the “league” rules, I just understand how they’re applied. Age AND looks are the parameters in defining leagues, e.g., if the man/woman is younger than their partner, they’re in a higher league; and if the man/woman is better looking than their partner, they’re in a higher league. The leagues equal out if man is older w/status/not as good looking and woman is younger/better looking. That’s usually how couples end up. They end up marrying in their league.
The above I know to be true. But if both are same age, same ratings in looks, I do believe it defaults to the man being in higher league simply because the woman is NOT younger than he. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work the same way if woman is older with more power/money than the man as men don’t care about that when it comes to mating unless they’re male gold-diggers or are power-hungry, and then they often end up cheating. (ala Arnold Schwarznegger, not sure if Maria was older or not; but her family is powerful and she was equally as attractive as he was). She did end things with him when she found out he cheated. but is supposedly entertaining reconciling (not sure). I don’t follow them that closely.
I didn’t bring up the detox tangent. I just went with the flow when Julia brought it up.
@Stix
I also believe monogamy is easier. No argument from me. But I don’t believe easy equals right; nor that easier equals natural; nor that easier is good. For example, I find online dating harder and more stressful than meeting someone IRL to date. However, I believe online dating is BETTER than IRL dating simply because it allows me to meet and date people I would never meet IRL. So when easier collides with better, one has to go with better and suffer the growing pains that result.
I’m NOT saying non-monogamy is better for most people. I am saying that it is better for OP simply because that IS the relationship she has now. Her guy is NOT monogamous with her and hasn’t been for a while. And she stayed with him throughout his infidelities because she likes him in spite of his cheating “…he’s SO devastatingly handsome, and SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear. I practically swoon every time I get a text, a call or an email . . . . sigh.” The only thing she doesn’t like is his cheating. In other words she doesn’t want to change the man, she wants to change the relationship (to a committed one). What I’m suggesting is that Yes, she CAN change the relationship, she can’t change it to a committed one without his buyin. BUT she CAN demote it to an UN-committed one, without his buyin — and voila, then he’s no longer cheating on her. Problem solved…just not the way she was hoping it to be solved.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that she is insecure. That insecurity is going to travel with her to any new man she has a relationship with. Her moving on to a new man without addressing the insecurity that made her ok with being with a cheated on will just open her up to be cheated on by a new man. Why be cheated on by two men? Being cheated on by one is already one too many.
Nicole says
@Rose thank you. I feel like all of this talk aobut leagues is so juvenile. I’ve known men and women who were perhaps not conventionally attractive who ALWAYS attract attentive and loving mates, and I think the amount of confidence they project was a huge part in that.
And I’ve seen some of the prettiest girls I know get played over and over again by guys who were NOT in fact “better” than them in any way…not better looking, not better educated, not wealthier.
The self-esteem thing is HUGE and I’d say those pretty girls I see bend over backwards to please men continue to get treated that way not b/c they aren’t as “good” as the peopel they date but b/c of self-esteem issues.
@Tom10, I think my response to you is the same…just that when people get treated badly a lot of it is what they think they deserve and what they project or what they show people they will tolerate, and I just don’t necessarily see a correlation in looks there. Men can be meh with gorgeous women with low self-esteem, so can women who date men who have that problem.
And of course, you are probably privy to what your friends think of their GFs but I also have to remember that we are all viewing the world from different eyes and many couples look like they don’t belong together to a lot of people but in the end, it only matters what they see when they look at each other. So I personally wouldn’t assume, oh, he treats her bad b/c she’s not pretty enough for him. He treats her bad b/c she lets him treat her bad.
Kiki says
@ Karmic 130,
what you say got me thinking a lot, as always.
About maintaing emotional distance from one’s spouse – it might actually not be a bad idea, if only I could do it!. Being married does not necessarily mean that you do not have relationship issues. Besides me, there is plenty of married folk around here, and I suppose, except for the very newly married (but even may be not except them) each of us struggles once in a while with how to get their partner/husband/wife to agree.
I found your explanation about how to distance yourself very interesting. I realize that I have tried doing that a few times (before my husband but also with him at the initial stages of our relationship and it was VERY DIFFICULT. I wanted to be able to dial down my emotions/feelings for the man, but every time I realized I can not dial it down, I only manage to either be in love or out of love.
Every time you say you still LOVE your former BF but have managed to demote him I find this strange… But may be I am projecting :-).
Rose says
When I was younger me and a couple of friends came across men who had books and used that rating scale. Lists of womens names and rated certain things.
At first we laughed at them.
Then we felt creeped out and avoided them. Would any woman who valued herself really want a man who used a rating scale on her looks age etc?
And now many years later years later would agree is a sign of emotional immaturity. So would not be attracted to any man who used a rating scale Just leave them to it. Feels far to shalllow and creepy makes me shudder! Can feell my face and nose wrinkling up in distaste.I am attracted and turned on to Consciously aware emotionally mature men who are kind and compassionate and have more depth to them who treat me how I want to be treated.
Each to their own.
Tom10 says
@ Nicole 138
“I feel like all of this talk aobout leagues is so juvenile.”
I see your point but the reality is there are leagues in dating whether we like it or not. You, and I, and everyone here are placed in a league by the opposite gender whether you accept it or not. And as Karmic explained #128, leagues aren’t just confined to looks. They also encompass intelligence, humor, fame, wealth, education, age and yes self-confidence: i.e. the whole package. So a secure beautiful woman is in a higher league than an insecure beautiful woman. In fact insecurity drops someone’s league dramatically. That explains your examples of beautiful women accepting poor behavior from average looking men. I just used looks as they are the simplest external manifestation of the person’s league.
And again I wasn’t explaining why the men cheat, rather why the women involved choose to accept it. If she was his equal there is no way she would tolerate such disrespectful behavior. The reasons why men cheat is a different story altogether. It says more about the man’s character than any difference in league level.
I’m sure you’ve dated plenty of men who were fundamentally decent people but you just didn’t feel ‘it’ for? You’ve probably met men who were kind, decent, and attractive but for some reason you couldn’t put your finger on you just couldn’t foresee a relationship with them? What do you think ‘it’ is? In my opinion ‘it’ is the feeling when you get to date ‘up’ or ‘equal’. You feel ‘no’ or ‘meh’ when you ‘date down’. Again this is all subjective to the individual based on the calibre of person they’ve dated in their past. Objectively they might be way off on their assessments.
Elizabeth would rather feel ‘it’ with someone who disrespects her than feel ‘meh’ with someone treats her well.
In fact, *in my opinion*, the main reason liberated people in the West struggle with dating is that we are all desperately trying to date out of our league, or at least at the very peak of our own league. I think women struggle with this more than men because (as I’ve written in different thread) men will ‘date down’ for sex/dinner/companionship for x amount of time, whereas women would rather abstain. Little do the women ‘dating up’ realize that those men will probably never take her too seriously and treat her with the respect she deserves.
Heck, I’m not blaming women as I’m as guilty as anyone at doing this, hence why I choose to stay single and have casual relationships. Unless I meet someone waaay out my league (who would also have to decide to date someone way beneath her league) I’m going to stay single.
I don’t want to go on and on about leagues so I’ll stop referring to them now 🙂
Goldie says
KE 128
Thanks!! Saving your advice for future reference.
As for the OP, I think Karl has just hit the nail on the head in #129
“Elizabeth is treating her boyfriend like he’s her one-and-only chance to score big. Her boyfriend is treating Elizabeth like a take-it-or-leave it option.”
Therein lies the problem. She has put him on a pedestal… even if she were miles out of his league, this would still be the root cause of his problem. She needs to change her attitude and see him for what he is, i.e. NOT her one-and-only chance.
@Kiki #139
“Every time you say you still LOVE your former BF but have managed to demote him I find this strange…”
I haven’t seen any of those posts, but maybe KE doesn’t mean love in terms of partner, 1:1 love? Forex, I love my dog. Doesn’t mean I cannot love other dogs and people at the same time.
Clare says
Tom10 #97
“Let’s call a spade a spade: she’s dating out of her league and both of them know it. That’s why they’re both behaving the way they are.”
I respectfully disagree. This is not necessarily true at all. All that we can logically deduce is that he’s behaving this way, and she is tolerating it.
I’m not sure when behaving like a cheating Casanova, stringing women who care for you along elevated a guy to a higher league than said devoted woman, as I’d say it’s evidence of someone with questionable integrity at best. Elizabeth may not necessarily be in a “lower league”, but what’s evident is that she doesn’t have a high enough opinion of her worth. There are some real gems of people in the world who don’t know their own value, including beautiful women.
I certainly think this man’s *perception* of his worth is higher than Elizabeth’s, but whether he is *actually* in a higher league than her is uncertain.
Kiki says
Goldie,
I am aware that the word love is used for several different types of emotions, but lets keep pets out of this for a while :-). So, imagine you have a boyfriend and you say you love him (it’s kind of understood you do, why would he be your bofyriend othewise). Then, you start to think that he has been cheating on you, so you tell him, you are no longer his girlfriend, but at the same time you still love him, using the same word to describe your feelings you used for while you were in a relationship? For me, if I do not trust the man to tell me the truth about whether he sleeps with other women, that is reason enough to ul-love him :-). Does not mean I can not have great sex with him if I do not love him (I totally can :-)) but the love would be dead for me.
I am sure Karmic will say what she thinks. 🙂
Karmic Equation says
SE
You are the queen of misrepresentation and taking things out of context.
I NEVER said that OP feels *shame.* What I said was (emphasis mine)
“What’s wrong is her hoping that he’ll change. Maybe what’s wrong is her desire for him to change (not because that’s a dealbreaker, because she’s been ok with it for FOUR YEARS) but possibly because she feels she should want him to change *because society, like most people on this board, is telling her* that good looks, good treatment when he’s with her, and sexual gratification aren’t enough for a relationship: “Monogamy is king!””
In other words, she feels PRESSURE not shame to conform. That is what slutshaming is about. *Pressuring with shame* to make others conform to what those others deem to be acceptable behaviors.
This is not the first time you’ve twisted and misrepresented what I wrote. So either you have a reading comprehension problem (I doubt) or you have some other problem. Until you resolve that problem, you may want to reconsider addressing my posts or perhaps if I’ve been unclear ASK me to clarify. Please don’t misrepresent.
I actually have a fair theory about why you have a problem with my posts, it’s the direct opposite of the one I have with yours. I come from a position that the failure or success of a woman’s relationship is well within the a woman’s power to contol. If it fails, she could have made better choices. If she succeeds then she made the right choices.
You come from a position that if the relationship succeeds then yes, it’s a reflection of the woman’s choices, but if it fails, then it’s the man’s fault or some other excuse. I hate excuses. That absolves one responsibility.
Even now, in reaming me, you’re providing excuses for the OP:
“…after 4 years of fooling herself…” — She’s a fool, it’s not her fault.
“…she has endured it for 4 years…” — She suffered all those years through the fault of the man. You clearly ignore that she enjoys the sex. Unless of course, sex is something to be suffered and not enjoyed in your experience?
And you misrepresent the gambler’s reason for gambling. He’s hooked on the potential of winning. And doesn’t care that losing causes problems for himself and others. If OP continues to gamble, using your analogy, other than she, who will suffer the consequences? Her bf won’t. Her family won’t. She is the only one who pays for her actions. There is no 3rd party retribution, except from the society that tries to shame her into conforming.
“By the way, since you seem to be so anti “slut shaming” (as am I) perhaps you might want to stop your own brand of slut shaming. You make feeble attempts to shame women who want sex in the context of a committed relationship, to convince them that they are no better than yucky whores.”
If my attempts are so feeble why do you even bother to address them?
And in NONE of my posts EVER on this board have I EVER even used the term “whore” in a post (until this sentence). I’ve called women insecure and I’ve called women hypocrites and I’ve likened women trading sex for commitment to women trading sex for money. I’ve never actually judged the women as being whores, in fact, I believe my post about that was, if that’s what you’re trading for commitment, make the best bargain you can. Don’t trade sex to man unworthy of you. So, I’m even rooting for the so called “whores” as you put it.
I’m entirely consistent in women taking responsibility for their own love lives. If it fails, a woman could have done something better, the simplest is to have picked a better man. If she had a good man and drove him away, then fix the driving-away behaviors. If she gets played, address the insecurities that made her so easy to get played.
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.”
I know I’m not insane because I don’t repeat my mistakes. I take risks and make new ones. I accept responsibility in failed relationships. I reflect on what went wrong and what I could have done better. If that makes me different than most women, I wear that badge proudly. Maybe more women ought to consider doing that. You end up in a better place mentally and emotionally, whether single or in a relationship.
Ruby says
KE (137) wrote:
<<The only thing she doesn’t like is his cheating. In other words she doesn’t want to change the man, she wants to change the relationship (to a committed one). What I’m suggesting is that Yes, she CAN change the relationship, she can’t change it to a committed one without his buyin. BUT she CAN demote it to an UN-committed one, without his buyin – and voila, then he’s no longer cheating on her. Problem solved…just not the way she was hoping it to be solved.>>
The “only thing” would be a dealbreaker for most people, so it’s hardly a small thing. Also, she complains of his disrespect and dishonesty as well (“I don’t believe a word you just said. Call back when you can be respectful.” ), so it does go deeper. don’t see what distinguishes “demotion” from acceptance, and I don’t get what is productive about that. If she was able to accept her guy’s behavior, she wouldn’t need to write in for advice in the first place. Besides, she’s been accepting it for 4 years. Personally, I’d find it easier – and much better for my own self-esteem and peace of mind – to find someone who won’t cheat and will put me first. But Elizabeth has to believe that she can find a man who will treat her better, and that she also deserves him.
Stix says
KE
I get what you are saying to me. It makes sense. However, your judgements, and beliefs are incorrect.
First, taking a difficult road is not something I am opposed to. I have lead myself purposely down some very difficult roads, and I am wiser and more experienced for it. That said, I have found something I enjoy, that feels easy (not a daily frustration, anyways). I have honesty, trust, love, romance, satisfaction, communication, and great neopolitan sex with this person. We desire the same things in life and relationship. My desire for a one to one monogamous relationship is entirely unrelated to fears of abandonment. The last thing I am afraid of is abandonment. I am cool on my own, and a believer in the limitless options available to me in terms of men, sex, and relationships.
When I speak of a romantic relationship, I do not involve casual sex. Sex does not = romantic relationship. You say a woman who desires a one on one monogamous relationship is insecure and afraid the man will abandon her if he has sex with, or forms a romantic relationship with someone else. For me personally, it is about balance. I am sexually open, and fluid. If my man desired another flavour for a casual sex encounter, surely he can come to me and tell me that. I believe I can accept that as long as he is able to afford me the same. Within my romantic relationship, however, I do not want to juggle more than one man. I find it mentally exhausting to have many friends. Something I have just come to accept, as I used to judge myself as a loner, and tell myself I should have more active friendships. I have no desire whatsoever to meet the needs of more than one person romantically, and I want my relationship to be a balanced one. Meaning…I do not want to be with a person who is not on the same page as I am. A person who desires multiple romantic partners is not the right person for me.
That does not mean I am incapable, or unwilling to walk difficult paths, or process through difficult feelings and issues. It means I am unwilling to do that if it is not necessary for my personal growth. I have no need to learn how to have multiple romantic relationships. I do not entertain limiting beliefs that tell me such a thing is necessary. My desire for a one on one relationship has nothing to do with societal constraints, and everything to do with my own personal feelings and desires.
Anyways, I do know none of this applies to LW. Her situation is vastly different from mine, and my beliefs are unique to me. I am capable of helping people navigate romance in a way that is right for them. I do it daily. I do not know enough about this woman to say what approach would be BEST for her. However, I think it is a good thing if I can come here and show that there are empowered and confident women out there, unafraid of having a man abandon them. Women who desire a one on one relationship with a man who is on the same page as them, and who is as committed to that as they are. And those men exist. One of them scored me…
As for her insecurities following her…Of course they will! Although she has no need of hanging onto this particular man to walk through that and release her insecurities. I still can not find the correlation between hanging onto this one man and empowerment. Not saying she could not find empowerment in what you suggest. However, it is really unnecessary to deify this man, and consider it some sort of self punishment or victimization to let him go sexually and move on.
Ruby says
Sorry for the double post, but I also wanted to add that on another level, this still gives the man all the power, if she feels that he is the best she can do, and that she has to hang on to him and accept a lesser relationship. It’s entirely possible that Elizabeth is actually more attractive than her guy, but if her self-esteem is low, she may not believe that. IMO, walking away is more empowering.
Lefty says
The league talk is superficial. Characteristics like humor and beauty are highly subject. Intelligence is wildly diverse. Howard Gardner identified a good 10 different kinds of intelligence, and others have found more. And categories like education, age, and income level are only first tier filters at best.
The biggest issue is that the OP wants to change the guy she’s with. Staying with a relationship out of the hope that you’ll change the other person is a dead end.
Stix says
Leagues are complex. Looks, personality, intelligence level, clothing, hairstyle, money, assets, education, location, self confidence, talents, career etc etc etc How can you tell what league a person is in.
Bare bones a person could be a 5. Just by simply looking at them with nondescript hair and clothing. Add hair, possibly makeup, clothing, status, education, wealth, sense of humour, self confidence, a radiant smile, a calm and happy energy, intelligence…You have yourself a 10 right there. People make their own league.
I hit 4 at best, bare bones. My hairstyle, make up, clothing, energy, personality, intelligence (but not education, unfortunately), assets, talents, sense of humour, sex appeal, self confidence, and and probably my eyes bring me to an easy 8. On an average day…subtract make up and hairstyle…I might be a 6 or 7. On a really good day, and in the right eyes, I could pull off 9.
No one is a solid number.
Rose says
Clare, I agree.
Elizabeth has low self worth and doesn’t love or value herself, that is the vibe she gives off. Doesn’t matter how beautiful, rich, clever she is all external things. Exrernal surface level number It’s is her internal vibe. Which most likely if she went to therapy would be rock bottom. Halle Berry was at Zero she considered suicide she wasright down there at zero. All someone will attract when feeling like this is someone who will treat them as zero. Like they do not matter are worthless.
So she is attracting a man who is not going to love or value her. Just like Halle Berry and others like her. Usually it can be traced back to a toxic parent or parents. And the man/men in question will come from equally toxic backgrounds.
Good book are men who hate women and the women who love them
And toxic parents. Both by top of the field expert on abusive relationships Dr Susan Forward.
Goldie says
@ Kiki
Yes, to me that would be a deal-breaker. I wouldn’t even like him as a friend after that. If he has violated my trust, he cannot be my friend. Cheating aside, though, I can totally see how it would be possible to have the same feelings for an ex as one would for a close friend, or a close family member. I guess these feelings can be called love, albeit a different kind of love. However I am not familiar with KE’s story. I admit I am curious now.
I totally agree with everyone that said that leagues are subjective; and that a person’s confidence, personality, calm and happy energy etc can have an effect of increasing their “league number”, if you will. Likewise, horrible personality, lack of integrity, etc can IMO decrease one’s league number. I don’t care how gorgeous a man is, if he is a horrible person that treats others like dirt, then after I get to know him a little better, he’ll look like Gollum to me. I honestly won’t remember how good his looks actually are. It does sound like the power dynamics in this situation is all in Elizabeth’s and the guy’s heads. Both he and she think he’s out of her league, which is why she continues to stick around and let him mess with her head, errr I mean send her swoon-inducing text messages at random when he’s bored. It is not healthy for her to stay in this situation at all.
Karmic Equation says
@Ruby 146
“The “only thing” would be a dealbreaker for most people, so it’s hardly a small thing.”
But it HAS been a small thing for OP. She hasn’t broken the deal in FOUR YEARS. Just because “most people” find cheating a deal breaker doesn’t mean it is for ALL people and it doesn’t necessarily mean that MOST people are right. It means most people ACCEPT it to be right. It’s cultural not intrinsic. In some cultures (non-western, of course) you’re considered selfish if you DON”T have sex with multiple partners.
——————
For goodness’ sake everyone, y’all are protesting like I”m a heretic for saying that monogamy isn’t the defining reason for a “good” relationship. Hmmmm…maybe that’s why all the protests? Something that counters what “most” people accept must be wrong or debunked. I’m feeling like Galileo.
C’mon.
OP just needs to decide which she wants more, the man she has now or the the relationship she has to go forth and find. If she wants to keep the man, she HAS to change her expectations of the relationship to be happy. If she wants a monogamous relationship, then she has to give up the man. I agree that giving him up is an option; I simply disagree that it is her ONLY option.
——————-
Finally, I have to say, most of you women have been deprived if you think that “all sex is the same”. It isn’t.
How long does a typical copulation last with a man? Not the foreplay or the cuddling afterwards, but the actual act of intercourse. 5 minutes average? Let’s say 10 just to give all the guys the benefit of the doubt.
My player-ex could average 40 mins without rest or loss of turgidity…and without the little blue pill (he’s only 34). Maybe OP’s guy is like my guy. That kind of performer can’t be found around every corner. And if you’d been serviced like that, you’re not likely to think all sex is the same.
Tom10 says
Because I can’t resist.
Clare #143
“I respectfully disagree…I certainly think this man’s *perception* of his worth is higher than Elizabeth’s, but whether he is *actually* in a higher league than her is uncertain.”
I actually think our positions are fairly close. For whatever reason Elizabeth, her boyfriend and I feel all that she is dating up. A lot of us here have that *perception*.
Of course we have no objective way of *actually* knowing their true league, unless err, we see their photos and profiles etc. and put it to a public vote.
Lefty #149
“The league talk is superficial. Characteristics like humor and beauty are highly subject.”
Stix #150
“Leagues are complex. No one is a solid number.”
I actually agree with both of you that league talk is subjective, complex and superficial and that we should all be looking beyond them into someone’s character.
However, the simple fact is superficial qualities are attraction triggers, which get you in the door whereupon you can then reveal your other qualities (or lack thereof). Not much point being a ‘deep’ person if there’s no-one who wants to stick around to see it.
Superficial qualities induce short-term attraction. Deeper qualities induce long-term attraction. To be successful in dating one needs to be able to trigger both. To generate short-term attraction is why we go to the gym, and the beauty industry is so large etc. To generate long-term attraction we need to refine our character and develop characteristics such as kindness, reliability, understanding, forgiveness etc.
I’m no Hellenistic expert but I think the Greeks said that romantic love (eros) could only occur when two people saw themselves as equals. This is patently not the case in the op’s situation, hence why everyone here has agreed that Elizabeth will never manage to get her boyfriend to ‘come round’.
Ruby says
Tom 10 #154
Wouldn’t you say that there are men who cheat because of the thrill they get, and that sexual novelty is more enticing to them than monogamy? It has nothing to do with their partner’s looks; these people are simply serial adulterers.
Tom10 says
Ruby #155
Yes of course. I didn’t mean to imply that he was cheating because he saw her as not good looking enough, although I can see how that could have been inferred from what I wrote in #97. I’ve said about three times that his cheating is a separate issue — a character flaw on his part. Although the fact that he doesn’t respect her certainly makes it easier for him to do so — he knows she’s just going to keep taking him back.
Unfortunately some men will cheat no matter how perfect their wives are. The powerful draw of sexual variety in some men can be absolutely immense. Of all the challenges I’ve faced in life the prospect of facing years of monogamy will undoubtedly be my greatest.
The real issue is her acceptance of his cheating, and her hope of turning him around: it’s not gonna happen, which is why Evan’s pithy response was such a good answer.
Goldie says
@ Tom10 154
So am I hearing you right that the leagues are based completely on one’s looks, and are being used to evaluate a person only in a very superficial way? that being in a high league, in and of itself, won’t sustain you in an LTR or even STR, but will help you get your foot in the door?
I would agree with that… To a point. After a certain age, our personality starts to show on our face. At my ripe old age it is completely possible to look like a male model and a giant douche (or like a female model and a raging witch) all at once.
But, more importantly, if being in a high league will only get you as far as first date, then it is irrelevant when we speak about Elizabeth and her man. Since they’ve been together (sort of) for four years, it doesn’t matter which league each of them objectively is in. It is all in their heads at this point.
@KE 153, while I completely agree with you that not all sex is the same, and that good sex is better than mediocre one by a long shot, I wouldn’t use being able to go on forever as an example. I’ve known people who had to go on forever. It was some kind of erectile dysfunction in their cases. Truth be told, to a woman it is about as exciting as spending all night on a treadmill. Worse, even. At least you can listen to music on the treadmill, and the treadmill’s feelings won’t be hurt if you get off it after an hour.
Stix says
KE
40 mins…Is that all?
I find 40 minutes passes rather quickly during sex. My bf and I probably average 30 minutes a pop. If I required it I am sure he could find an hour or two in him, he did in the beginning. I have no complaints as we are more than once a day type people. I am happy with 10 mins in the middle of the night. When is sex EVER always the same?
I have known some marathon men…I dunno, right now you look like the deprived one from my perspective. Where did you get all these limiting beliefs around men, and scarcity?
Karmic Equation says
@Stix
That’s 40 mins without stopping the intercourse part not from taking off clothes to snoring 🙂
Maybe I am deprived because if most men can last 40 minutes pumping alone, then I’ve definitely been with the wrong men! In my experience, most men only last 5-10 minutes after entry for me until this one. Of course the whole clothes off to snoring is can last an hour or two, if you include foreplay and cuddle. I was expressly excluding that.
Karmic Equation says
@Goldie
Yes, there are “whiskey dicks” but typically they can’t even get it up. That’s the erectile dysfunction. I happen to like lasting long and it’s not just boring pumping along. He talks … umm… well, and there’s other stuff that’s going on as well 🙂 There’s quality in addition to qty.
josavant says
Evan’s original answer was pithy enough. Why are we up to over 160 comments?
I think the whole argument over monogamy is a distraction, to the point that commenters were attacking each other. To me that’s not the issue. Yes it is possible to have a “good” relationship that is non-monogamous, if both sides really agree to it (not one side giving in because the other wants it).
But the bigger issue is RESPECT. You can have a good relationship without monogamy. But you cannot have a good relationship without respect. It doesn’t sound like the OP’s guy respects her, and that is what makes it a bad relationship, and that is why Evan said no a bajillion times. FWIW I agree with him.
Tom10 says
@ Goldie #157
“So am I hearing you right that the leagues are based completely on one’s looks”
Not quite.
I said in #141 that “leagues aren’t just confined to looks. They also encompass intelligence, humor…and yes self-confidence: i.e. the whole package”
And
“I just used looks as they are the simplest external manifestation of the person’s league”
Although to be honest I would argue that men do classify women primarily by their looks initially. Women are a little different and classify men not only according to their looks but also their status (this is huge trigger) education and income etc.
“and are being used to evaluate a person only in a very superficial way? That being in a high league, in and of itself, won’t sustain you in an LTR or even STR, but will help you get your foot in the door”
Right.
“if being in a high league will only get you as far as first date, then it is irrelevant when we speak about Elizabeth and her man. Since they’ve been together (sort of) for four years, it doesn’t matter which league each of them objectively is in. It is all in their heads”
In my opinion it’s actually very relative to Elizabeth. The reason this is such a “sort of” relationship is because there is a fundamental power imbalance at its core. One party knows they have all the power which affects the behavior of both parties.
Nicole said in #107 said that “if he was out her league with regard to looks I don’t even think he’d be using for sex 4 years out”. I disagree with this as I believe some men do date below their league for years on end. They just can’t be bothered to make an effort to find someone else.
In fact I’m coming to the conclusion that “men will date down for sex/casual, whereas women would rather abstain” concept can be used to explain so many of the issues in modern dating.
Someone should really write a book about this!
@ Karmic Equation #153
“How long does a typical copulation last with a man?…5 minutes average”
That made me chuckle. I tend to go for a looong time too. I don’t say that to boast, rather that it’s a result of having been over-exposed to porn!
J says
Josevant#161- yes, i think you’ve nailed the issue for this OP. at least twice in her letter she mentions respect ( or the lack thereof). There are plenty of men that are upfront about their inability ( or lack of desire) to be monogamous. Their women may not like it, but they are not being cheated on ( per the OP) or lied to. Doesn’t sound like the OP’s boyfriend has given her that courtesy.
Marie says
Karmic are you saying that the OP should just put up with whatever a man doles out because he gives her fantastic sex? Because really fantastic sex is not that hard to find. A man who loves you and respects you, now THAT is rare and worth dumping this mediocre man to find. I would argue that sex would be even better once you are with such a guy who loves and respects you. Believe me, I know. You seem to feel like finding a guy who gives you fantastic sex is somehow like finding a goldmine. I don’t really understand that. If you are as competitive as you say, you should have no problems finding such a guy. I’m not half as competitive as you, I let men come to me rather than go after them, and I haven’t had any problems. Maybe we have different definitions of what good sex is but that is as it should be because all women must differ in some circumstance. My advice to the OP is ditch any guy who does not respect you (as previously stated). Better to have NO sex than sex with a guy who thinks you are dirt.
Sparkling Emerald says
Nicole@ 138
@Rose thank you. I feel like all of this talk about leagues is so juvenile.
Thank you Nicole for thanking Rose. This league talk IS juvenile and it is for people who want to PLAY GAMES and aren’t interested in making a real connection. I suspect that people who are into leagues when it comes to dating are also as shallow and superficial in their same sex friendships, always trying to hang out with the “cool kids” and avoiding “the nerds”. No real friendships, just trying to impress on everyone that they Mr or Ms popular.
I don’t reject men because I think they are “beneath” me league wise. They either aren’t my type, I’m not attracted to them, they are not a good match, or they treat me rudely, or have different relationship goals and I don’t want to have anything to do with them.
I would rather be with a devoted, consistent, kind, guy with integrity & a bit of an edge, who looks like Drew Carey, then to be with some George Clooney clone who treats me badly or refuses to ever be exclusive. ( most George Clooney look alikes do refuse to be exclusive)
I think all this BS about leagues is largely a social construct. I think some individuals WANT to love a particular person, but as soon as they hear their friends, family or acquaintances say “Awwwwww, you can do better than that” (based on something superficial such as , too short, too blue collar, not cute enough, less education than you, etc. ) they wuss out and dump the person, not because they didn’t care for them, but family, friends or acquaintances convinced them, that their choice in partner was beneath them (in a lower league)
Sparkling Emerald says
OK, sorry to double post, but I have read all this talk about quality sex, and how long a guy go (for the intercourse part) etc. and I must say that the GREAT thing for me now that I am 58 is that sex is now on my “nice to have list” and not on my “MUST have list”.
In my younger days, I just felt like I would die without it. (not literally, but there was SUCH a sense of urgency) And as a result, I put up with a ton of BS in relationships, just to get my fix of sex. Now that I am back in the dating game as a senior citizen and not a hot to trot 20 something, it’s so nice to not be DRIVEN primarily by the physical desire. Not sure quite how to word this but here goes, in my early, early dating years, it seemed like the deep emotional connection was on my “nice to have” list and the sex was on my “must have” list. Now the emotional connection is on my “must have” list and the sex is on the “nice to have list”.
I was talking to my best friend (of over 50 years) about this, and she said it has been the same for her. I don’t know how it is for other senior women, but I wonder if declining hormones has something to do with it. I am on BHRT, but that hasn’t put my libido up to the levels they were when I was in my late teens through my mid 40’s.
Nicole says
I see your point @Tom10.
But I have found my attraction for people that I’d have initially said had no qualities that could attract me based on how they made me feel and how I felt when I was with them. And handsome but boring has never appealed to me, so handsome and asshole has never been on my radar. I like myself, I like people who like me, and I like people with whom I can continue to feel good about myself.
And I would have previously said that didn’t work on men but it can, although to a lesser extent.
So as a woman, a man that I initially viewed as completely unattractive could move into “attractive” based on personality, character, and how I get treated. A women cannot swing the pendulum quite so much with a man…I think if he finds her initially unattractive she’d have to have an ugly duckly to swan type transformation. But I do think a woman ca nbe a bit less in one or several dimensions and if she makes the man happy when he is with her, he can find himself smitten and wanting to settle down.
But I have seen some male/female roommates (where the female was in a lower league by all superficial measures) become couples who married. I can recall a couple of good examples of women who were definitely NOT being mistreated despite being quite plain while married to extremely handsome, well-educated, high earning husbands. But I’d say that was only possible b/c the men didn’t find them to be totally ugly to begin with. Probably just not GF material.
But none of this changes the fact that this LW needs to let go and move on.
Kiki says
Karmic,
one question. With that infamous BF, was the sex as good while you had the real relationship? There is an interesting book (Mating in Captivity if I remember correct) which develops the argument that great sex springs out of insecurity/missing commitment (living in the wild in the animal world) and that once you have stability/predictability (the cage) you don’t care too much about mating. Does familiarity bring contempt?
Julia says
Interesting anecdote, probably no correlation here. I dated a man for 2 years in college, we had amazing sex constantly. I was also very much in love so when he broke up with me because he felt he couldn’t commit at that early an age it was heartbreaking. I continued to sleep with him for another 4 years. This was pretty damaging to me because there certainly was strings attached. One day we were hanging out and I told him enough is enough, we can be friends but no more sex. A month later he met the woman who would become his wife. I’m not sure if there is any connection but I think that if you are looking for a relationship it can be hard if you are tied up in someone else. This is why even though I can have sex with men with little emotion, I choose not to now. I want to be completely open to the man who will become my husband. I date multiple men at a time but I don’t have sex with any of them, when one of them rises to the top he gets to be the one. Now I am looking for a relationship that leads to marriage and children. If that is not what you are looking for, I respect that path. Yes, even you Karmic Equation, I know where you are coming from because i spent several years of my life there and its fun and there is nothing wrong with it.
Goldie says
@ Kiki 168
I’m not Karmic, but I’ll answer. IMO it depends on the people involved. With my x-husband, we had sex every week, even after he started developing a drinking problem, even when we slept in separate bedrooms and led all around separate lives. Of course we did have it three times a day when we were 20, but that was not because we felt insecure in our relationship, but because we were, well, 20. Last time we were intimate was the day before I told him I’d signed a lease on an apartment, paid a divorce attorney’s retainer fee, and was moving out in five days. It was fairly good.
With recent x-bf, we both had a, um, healthy libido. We’d go at it a few times a day, for the 2-3 days a week that we spent together (plus vacations), for the entire two years we were together. Again, last time it happened was three days before he broke things off. We both had a good time. It was just as good at the end as it was in the beginning, maybe even better because by then we each knew what the other one liked. Bottom line, I’ve heard about sexless marriages and couples that stop caring about sex once they become an established couple; but I have never experienced that myself. And frankly, I hope I won’t anytime soon, heh heh.
I haven’t read the Mating in Captivity book, but I find it puzzling that it seems to imply that great sex is some kind of a red flag, because it can only occur from lack of commitment. Like, if a couple has great sex, they need to get to a couples therapist, because great sex indicates that the security and stability in their relationship must be missing. At least this is what logically follows from what you said the book states. If that is what it really says, I’d take it with a grain of salt. I don’t know if the animal world analogy applies to humans. For one thing, if I were an animal living in a lab or a zoo, I’d probably be too depressed to care about mating. Another thing, many animals only go into heat on a rare occasion like once a year. Either way, I have a hunch that animals do not view sex the same way we do.
Sparkling Emerald says
Nicole @167 – I have LOST attraction for people that I initially found attractive, if they turned out to be boring, didn’t return by attraction or treated me badly. Unfortunately, in the past, boredom would cause me to lose it very quickly, but it took longer for the attraction to be lost in the case of unrequited attraction or maltreatment.
I have only ONCE developed attraction for someone where there initially was NONE, and he claimed he achieved that by some sort of candle lighting ceremony (which I think is BS, but I do find it strange that the ONLY person I ever went from zero to high attraction for claimed to have used some sort of white magic) However, we had different relationship goals so I ended it. (He wanted a child free marriage, he had a vasectemy from a different marriage among other things) No hard feelings over that break up.
If I don’t have some sort of baseline attraction, then I walk. I have to AT LEAST be able to see myself cuddling with that person, and if they are kind, interesting, honest, faithful & consistent, and treat me well, that attraction can grow. But if I start off feeling NOTHING, it never grows. (well except for that ONE time) No matter how “nice” the person is.
Since my D, I haven’t had any initial WHITE-HOT attraction, and in fact, have not had anything develop into that crazy out of control feeling attraction, but I have felt a comfortable amount of attraction. I hope I can find and sustain a relationship at that attraction level, and find a relationship with a nice enjoyable sexual component, that is comprised primarily of reciprocal kindness, integrity and enjoying each others company, in an out of bed. I really don’t want to have that sort of judgement clouding over the top attraction again. Gets me into trouble.
Kiki says
Goldie,
you made me laugh. Actually, the book says that it is normal to get bored from your married partner, and, that, in order to have a long and happy marriage you need to make a special effort to keep the spark alive.
Now that I think about it, the book is written for people who have a certain problem (blush) and not for women like you who have great sex at home, that’s why you haven’t read it :-).
Karmic Equation says
@Marie
Being competitive has nothing to do with finding a good lover. Serendipity has a lot to do with putting two people who get along together in the same place so as to put that into play.
For me personally, finding loving relationships hasn’t ever been a problem. And the truth of the matter is sometimes even when you love the person, the sex can be meh (e.g., with my ex-husband).
I would argue that you have great sex in relationships not because the man loves you, but YOU love HIM. And when you don’t love him, even though he’s the same man, doing the same thing, somehow, it’s not so great anymore.
And no, I’m NOT saying that she should put up with “whatever a man doles out because he gives her fantastic sex” — I’m saying she’s ALREADY been putting up with the negative “whatever” (cheating) and she’s digging the positive whatever (“SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear”).
She’s been ok with the negative. She’s given more weight to what she deems his positives than what others consider a glaring negative. That’s her prerogative and she shouldn’t be made to feel she’s “wrong, foolish, stupid, or lacks quality” simply because she values something most women have been brainwashed to not value…except in a monogamous relationship. That serves society and religion, mostly run by which gender? MEN.
I love men as indviduals and I believe in God, but I am skeptical of any society or religion that instills limiting beliefs about women’s sexuality upon women. And I think women who accept those limiting beliefs without questioning them are …sheeple.
@Kiki 168
Good question.
It’s a good story…my first time with that infamous bf was nothing to write home about. I actually told him to his face when he sought me out for a second time. I looked him in the eye and said “Dude, the last time was nothing to write home about, why would I want another round?” He took up the challenge and promised me X,Y,Z, and I really liked him as a person, so I gave him a second chance and he came through like a champ. Since then it had gotten better each time until it plateau’d out. The quality now in our FWB relationship is the same as when within the relationship. The only thing that’s changed is frequency not quality.
Maybe the “in the wild” mating affects him more than me, though. He actually lasted longer and went two rounds (both were marathon sessions) in one night after the demotion to FWB. The book Sex at Dawn would theorize this was due to “sperm competition”. And I would tend to agree with that theory. It’s an interesting theory 🙂
@Tom10
Lolol. I would never have associated over-stimulation from porn to the be the reason for his prowess. But knowing him, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case. I guess porn has some unforeseen benefits for us women, eh?
Stix says
KE
Yep, I caught what you were throwing out there. Straight pumping. Gotcha…
What i’m saying is that in my experience most men are able to control themselves for a decent length of time. I have known some marathon men and some minute men (one only), but most men i’ve known are in the middle, and can control themselves. That includes my exhub and current boyfriend, neither of whom were marathon men really, and definitely not minute men. Perhaps it has something to do with location. I live in a large-ish city, with no lack of available men from all walks. Perhaps also personal experience. Perhaps a knowledge that I am not cool with a pump n jump. I won’t have sex with someone who is just after their own. Not repeatedly anyways. Sex is a shared experience with 2 people participating. Perhaps my own approach to sex leaves no room for a flat line of infinite quickies. There are 2 people involved, remember.
Anyways, this is a very narrowly focused discussion that really does have nothing to do with LW.
You can make blanket assumptions and judgements of men and women. You’re just more likely to be wrong, and limit yourself with such beliefs. Like, limiting yourself to not letting go of sex with one particular man because he can pump for 40 mins straight while also talking, and “other stuff”…
Marie says
@ Karmic – thanks for clarifying. We are very different people I suspect so I have a hard time figuring out where you are coming from sometimes. I DO think the OP is just plain wrong and should kick him to the curb. What did you think about the issue of his total lack of respect for her? If you factor in respect, I think it’s both the man and the relationship that is wrong for her. I don’t think she is capable of participating in an elaborate scheme to downgrade the relationship. That is something you could pull off well with your extensive experience but I think she is too emotionally involved.
@Julia – I agree with your approach to dating if you want to find a husband. My 30 something girl friends and I started this process at the same time over a year ago. We all tried to follow EMK but the difference was they continued to have NSA and meaningless flings while I put my whole concentration on finding my match. The result a year later was I found my husband while they are all still floundering around. I don’t think I am any more special or lucky but I do think they wasted a lot of emotional space and time. 40 minutes of NSA is 40 minutes you could be emailing 3 new men on match with husband potential! Good luck to you.
Karmic Equation says
176@Marie
You only caught half of what I was throwing out for LW…Downgrade the relationship to keep the man (Mr Right Now), then start doing the dating to look for Mr Right. I never said STOP looking for Mr. Right. I’m suggesting she keep Mr. Right Now ACCEPTING him to be Mr. Right Now and start her search for Mr. Right. Basically string Mr. Right Now along for sex while looking for something better if sex with him is important to her.
We women can multitask in ways men can only dream of. Why do women have to be binary (only have sex with men they’re in monogamous relationships with or not have sex at all; look for men only when they’re celibate or not look at all). I’m not the one with limiting beliefs about what women are capable of handling.
I’m only different from most women because I don’t believe the standard narrative (women are temperamentally suited only to be in monogamous relationships) but I am apparently one of the few that thinks juggling men is doable.
And I agree with you that if OP wants to get married, she needs to put a focus on finding Mr. Right. But, you know, she can still be banging Mr. Right Now at 2am, also, without it interfering with her search if she ACCEPTS that Mr. Right Now will never be Mr. Right. If she *cannot* accept that THEN she will have a problem multitasking.
You’re all assuming she can’t. I’m assuming she can. If she can still like him after he’s cheated on her; she has the capacity to search for Mr. Right while having her fun with Mr. Right Now.
Joe says
The person with the most power in a relationship is the one who cares the least. Elizabeth clearly cares more than her BF does. We can’t really say whether or not it has anything to do with leagues.
marymary says
Karmic
I agree that if she can pull it off, 176 is a good option. That last sentence is a killer.
Ruby says
It’s pretty clear to me that Elizabeth is in love with this man. That’s why she’s hung on for 4 years, not just because he’s hot and the sex is good. Not easy to downgrade “love” to “like”, from wanting “forever” to “okay for now”.
Karmic Equation says
One note, 176 was directed at Stix for the most part.
The last two paragraphs of 176 were meant for Marie.
————-
@Marie 175
“What did you think about the issue of his total lack of respect for her?”
Well, this is going to come as a complete surprise to you…NOT lol..but I think the lack of respect really is a one-way street when it comes to feelings. It only affects the feelings of the person who lacks respect, other than displeasure, it rarely has any affect on the person at whom that lack of respect is directed.
For example, I stopped loving my 6yr bf when I lost respect for him when he spiraled into full-blown alcoholism. My loss of respect for him didn’t change him one bit. He continued to drink. However, I stopped feeling that “in love” feeling for him. He became ugly and pitiful to me and I lost all attraction for him.
In the OP’s example, her guy’s lack of respect is indicative of the fact he’ll never love her the way she wants him to. But that lack of respect obviously hasn’t kept OP from hoping otherwise.
So until OP truly loses respect for him or for herself, her feelings for him will remain unchanged.
I think he’s wrong for cheating, if indeed he is cheating. I think she’s wrong to accept his cheating, if it makes her unhappy. To me those wrongs cancel each other out.
So something else needs to break the stalemate. If she’s young, it should be her ticking clock. If she’s my age, then she has some flexibility with her options.
Marie says
@Karmic – we do agree that you can date multiple different Mr. Right Nows while looking for Mr. Right. That should be the default setting and in no way takes away from someone who is interested in monogamy.
I think where we differ is you feel that the OP’s guy can be just a Mr. Right Now. I think in her heart of hearts she has him pegged as Mr. Right and will get confused if she keeps any kind of physical relationship with him. I advocate she start over with a bunch of NEW Mr. Right Nows! 😀
Nicole says
@Sparking Emerald 171, oh, I should have been clear that the situations where that happened were not dates with strangers, but more like the scenario I mentioned where you know someone or go to school or work with someone and see them regularly but even if you interact, view it very neutrally. Clearly, if you go out with someone on a date or two and don’t see anything there at all you won’t stick around.
But the situation I described where women married their male roommates started as fully platonic situations, and I think that for an average woman and an “above average” man, getting to spend so much time getting to know someone can put them over the top for you even if they just seemed destined to stay in the friendzone. One of my friends moved in with a member of her college friend circle (who she had known but never had interest in dating for the 4 years of college she knew him). When everyone graduated, she wanted to move to a part of town that none of their other friends wanted to live in. No one is quite sure when they became a couple(she was oddly secretive about it at first) but I think that had they not become roommates, it would not have happened.
If you work or go to school with someone you see them nearly every day. You might sit next to them in class or at the office, go out to lunch, have coffee, socialize after work/class, all with zero romantic intentions/expectations. A co-worker can treat you to lunch or buy you a coffee and you don’t think anything of it. That is why it can suddenly hit you with the last person you expected.
I also had a college classmate who ran into a b-school classmate (who had also been a college peer) at a baby shower. They were both looking for a new church and decided to start visiting churches together. After church, they’d go to brunch. That turned into a romance, then moving in together, and I can’t remember if they married later that same year or the year after (I just remember it was in the summer and they’d started living together in the early spring). They have been in close quarters/social circles at 3 different points in their lives but always been with other people and didn’t even see the first meeting as anything but casual. As a woman, I tend to think he would NOT have agreed to explore churches with her if he didn’t find her cute, but it is highly likely that she did NOT see him as any potential romanic partner and may not have found him attractive in that way at all. But spending a lot of time together talking led to them falling in love.
I swear, most of my friends never had to look for love or relationships. Not sure why that lightening never hit me too.
Karmic Equation says
@Marie
“I think in her heart of hearts she has him pegged as Mr. Right and will get confused if she keeps any kind of physical relationship with him.”
I can buy that.
But…
“I advocate she start over with a bunch of NEW Mr. Right Nows!”
…while I agree, it’s not as easy as it sounds.
I’ll just speak from experience on this one.
While I’m not “in love” with my ex, I love him despite all his faults…and he has many. We click. And we have an easy rapport when we’re together. He gets me, I get him.
I’ve been online dating since mid-June and have met over 20 men. Had sex with two of them and want to keep them casual.
However, I have a strong libido. It’s easier and less complicated to text my ex to help me take care of business than it is to text one of the casual guys to do it. Of course they’d be happy to, I’m sure, but these casual relationships are too casual ATM and calls and texts like that would make us all feel pretty icky pretty quickly. Even if they don’t feel weird, I would. It would feel way too much like chasing and those guys will disappear quickly because of that. I don’t want that.
While I can have NSA sex, the sex is NSA only because I don’t require them to be sexclusive with me before having sex. Otherwise the process I go through to deem a man worthy of sex is the exact same as what all of you go through. I just do it a little quicker (by 3rd date) and I don’t require sexclusivity to have sex. Having NSA sex does NOT mean you have sex with every man you meet. It doesn’t work like that.
What this means is that it takes time. Out of 20 men I only “wanted” three of them. Of the three, only one is truly viable for a continued sexual relationship ATM. And again, the relationship is too new for me to text him to take care of business. I have hopes that it will become that at some point, but it hasn’t reached that point yet.
And I have obviously thought this through. How likely is the OP to pull this off without getting discouraged? If she doesn’t have her now-bf as an fwb, she’ll either have to control her libido or risk scaring some guy off and then FURTHER scarring herself and go back to her bf with more insecurities and less power than now.
I wouldn’t recommend that. Keeping her current as an FWB is actually EASIER than creating NEW FWB relationships. Once she nurtures a few new FWB relationships THEN she can drop him (and she’ll probably naturally want to).
Zaria says
Elisabeth does not say if they had the talk about exclusivity and commitment. May be she is innocently assuming they are having a relationship because she is having sex with him.
May be all Elisabeth is unknowingly having is a friend with benefit who himself has other friends with benefits.
The guy might be an average guy who is having the life of a single guy dating around until he meets his wife.
As a sex partner he is efficient according to Elisabeth herself. He tells her what she wants to hear, sends her the exact words that make her swoon, he gives her the emotions she wants to feel, etc…
The problem would be that Elizabeth’s innocent expectations are not in alignment with a friend with benefit situation.
Her expectations belong to a romantic relationship. She is in an imaginary relationship. And her imagination feels painful to her because it is not in alignment with reality.
The guy is not hurting her. Her own expectations are hurting her. He does what serves him. Her job is to do what serves her. Right now her job would be to forget about her expectations with this guy and to get out of a situation that feels painful. 4 years of pain is a long time and tells me she is addicted to pain. She is using the guy to punish herself.
May be her coming here to ask if the situation can change is the sign she is ready to let go off pain.
What is she asking?
Can she turn the sex affair into a romantic relationship?
Can it be done by withdrawing sex from the “affair”?
Can she teach a sex partner to plan dates ahead of time?
Can she teach a sex partner to respect her?
Can she teach a sex partner to not desire any other friend’s body?
Can she teach a man to love her?
I don’t know and it would not be my focus.
What I know is that she can teach herself to love herself more than she loves any man.
She can be the change she wants to see in the world.
She can change her own perspective and find her own self respect. It is her own changes that will bring her peace, rather than the man’s responses to her changes.
If Elizabeth is so addicted that she can’t break up with him, then the good news is that, since he is not her boy-friend, she does not have to break up with him. She can simply stop calling him to give herself a chance to focus on herself and on the world out there, outside of this guy. It would help her find peace and forget her expectations about this guy. And find her self respect back. Calling (=chasing) a guy who sleeps with others has got to kill her self esteem and to make her feel powerless.
When he calls her, she can pick up the phone and answer warmly, to honour her feelings for him. To honour her truth by sharing it with respect. Calling a man a liar and a cheating Casanova is disrespectful to herself and can not create love.
No need to force herself to ignore his call, it would be like stabbing her own heart. Baby step to building her self esteem back. . She could use the experience to learn to say “no” to a man while keeping warm and open. No drama, just the humble truth when he suggests a meeting:
“I don’t feel comfortable meeting you. I have romantic feelings for you and a friendship feels too painful. I don’t reject you, I have romantic feelings for you and I miss you but I did not mean to be in a friend with benefit situation. It feels sad and I feel devastated. I was keeping the space for a romantic exclusive committed relationship and I feel like it was high jacked. I don’t want to feel high jacked anymore.”
She would feel some of her power back after she shares her true feelings while voting for herself.
He might never call again or he might call again from time to time. And she can keep saying the same thing until he gets tired of trying or until she resents his calls as boring in contrast with her new life with new people.
What Elisabeth wants to know, I guess, is if missing her could wake his heart towards her and he would stop dating the others and would do anything to prove he has become 100% into Elisabeth.
Well, the only way to know is to stop calling him, and to drop her romantic expectations about him, and to consider him like just a date she can’t meet, and to keep telling him when he calls that she misses him but will not meet him as a “friend”. And to move on with her life, meeting new people. No waiting for him to fall in love with her, it may never happen.
She will see by herself if he disappears after a few calls or if he sticks around.
She has got nothing to lose. Right now, she does not have him anyway.
She has everything to win: either he drops off the planet and thus leaves the space for her heart to recover quicker. Or he sticks to her and will do anything to prove his heart changed. In both cases she gets her self esteem back.
xxx
Kendra Rios says
This was so ironic I read this post tonight, I am currently reading Why Love Succeeds or Fails. It’s a great resource on this exact subject. Wendy Brown is the author, her site is whylovesucceeds.com you can find info on the book there. I also love these comments, they are really insightful!
zsen10 says
The old adages are true, ” treat them like shit and they will love you forever.” ” Once a cheater, always a cheater”. I know an older, married couple where the husband has cheated on the wife the entire marriage. She stayed with him making her merry trip through hell early. He finally quit cheating, because he got too damned old to get it up and that is the only reason he quit! She survived it and got what she wanted, I guess. It’s all about what you can stomach.
grace says
i have been dating a narsictic man on and off for 6 years. he sure knows how to real them in. A game for him. Our first few years were good I think because I never took him seriously, could call him if i needed something and walk away. everything changed when my heart got in it. He became a total control freak outbursts of anger never taking responsibilty every time i called him out somehow i was crazy? my self esteem suffered greatly. Healing is slow. The major change for me is im taking care of me eating healthy extersize and cut the alcohol out!