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In your book “Why He Disappeared,” on page 63, you write. “just because you invite him inside doesn’t mean you have to sleep with him, just because your pants are off doesn’t mean you have to sleep with him.” (!!!) (What???) I was a virgin when I married at twenty years old. My ensuing 40-year marriage was completely monogamous, but I was widowed three years ago. At this point in my life, *Virtue* is the one quality that I am so sure of, I feel I no longer have to “prove” it. I am 65 years old but continue to very much want and appreciate sex. I don’t know — with my long and “perfectly virtuous” life — what I need to do as far as “waiting” to have sex is concerned. Your ideas on page 63 of “rounding the bases” makes more sense than anything I’ve ever read. *But* “HOW” can your pants be off and you still won’t have sex? —Carol
Dear Carol,
I chose this question because what you expressed is a real common sentiment. And it’s a complete and utter fallacy.
“How can I invite him inside without having sex?”
“How can I kiss him without having sex?”
“How can I take my pants off without having sex?”
As if neither of you possesses any measure of self-control about whose penis goes into whose vagina.
Just because you’re both naked and he’s reaching for the condom in his wallet doesn’t mean that you have to have sex.
Honestly, people.
I’m not going to count the number of people I’ve “hooked up with” without having intercourse, but let’s just say it’s more than 50 and less than 4000. How did I manage to pull off this stupendous feat of full-frontal fortitude?
Well, sometimes, when we were making out on her couch, she’d say something like, “I’m so turned on right now, but we have to stop.” And I’d kiss her for another fifteen minutes and reach up the back of her shirt again, and she’d move my hand back to somewhere she felt appropriate. And I’d take the hint.
Sometimes, she’d declare that she was having fun, but that she had an early morning the next day and that I had to go.
Sometimes, we’d have our shirts off and I would reach for her belt buckle and she’d stop me and grab for mine.
Sometimes, we’d dry hump until it was painful and both go home sexually dissatisfied.
Sometimes, we’d both have our pants off and perform various permutations of oral and manual stimulation.
Sometimes, there were orgasms. Sometimes there weren’t.
But in each instance of participating in foreplay with a woman on Date 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, I would always leave with this feeling:
That was AWESOME. I can’t WAIT to do that again.
Refuse to do any of these things (because you don’t DO that), and you’ll find that most men who take you out and make a move on you will feel embarrassed, rejected, emasculated, confused and dispirited.
(Except for maybe the blue balls. Or three straight dates with nothing but kissing. That was a little frustrating.)
Foreplay — as we all used it back in high school before we had intercourse — can be fun, exciting, hot, and yes, even gratifying.
Used as a means of establishing a physical connection while you assess his relationship-worthiness, I think it’s a great tool that women can use to their advantage.
Refuse all forms of foreplay because you don’t DO that (which is within your rights, of course), and you’ll probably find that most men who take you out and make a move on you will feel embarrassed, rejected, emasculated, confused and dispirited.
But to be very clear — you, as a woman, have total control of what you want to happen. And just because you’re both naked and he’s reaching for the condom in his wallet doesn’t mean that you have to have sex.
It’s called self-control, y’all.
And as the rare man who DIDN’T have sex with anyone who wasn’t a girlfriend from 2004 until I met my wife in 2007, I can assure you that providing sexual pleasure while still maintaining some boundaries is an effective and powerful stance.
If you can’t see the line between oral sex and intercourse, I understand. But most people I know can count how many people they’ve slept with. Not so much with the oral sex tally.
Yes, it’s arbitrary, but I’ve used this method (and coached it) to great success over the years. Hope that clears things up a bit, Carol.
AS says
“It’s called self-control, y’all.” Amen!
Almita says
Evan wrote, “But in each instance of participating in foreplay with a woman on Date 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, I would always leave with this feeling: That was AWESOME. I can’t WAIT to do that again.” I notice that the count only goes up to Date 5. I know there has been a lot of discussion on this site about when it is appropriate to have sex in a new relationship. This statement leads me to believe that foreplay without sex is only satisfactory for a limited time period.
Evan also wrote, “Or three straight dates with nothing but kissing. That was a little frustrating.” If these dates are the couple’s first three dates (which probably take place within a 1-2 week time frame), then I think “nothing but kissing” is not inappropriate. Myself, I really don’t feel comfortable having a man whom I don’t know very well putting his hands all over me during the first three dates. Similarly, I don’t feel comfortable giving a man whom I don’t know very well oral sex. I can’t say when I would feel comfortable, but I think I would have to know the person more than one or two weeks.
Evan also talked about “self control.” I know that I can control myself, but I can’t control the other person. If a woman doesn’t know the man very well, and she engages in foreplay, I think she is putting herself in danger of date rape.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Almita – I was really hoping you wouldn’t go there. But you did. So I have to respond.
Your intimation that: “Foreplay without sex is only satisfactory for a limited time period”. Well, you make it sound like if a guy doesn’t get laid, he’s going to a) bail or b) rape her. That was not my experience in dating at all. What men want is to feel that things are progressively moving forward, so that sex is eventually a possibility. And if a woman makes it clear that she doesn’t have sex with a man until he’s her boyfriend (which is my advocated policy), the man has enough information to either a) bail or b) stick around and become her boyfriend in a sexually exclusive relationship.
@Almita – “I really don’t feel comfortable having a man whom I don’t know very well putting his hands all over me during the first three dates.” I’m not saying that you have to use foreplay in the way that I advocate. I will simply point out that if you go out with 10 men and 5 of them think that staying on first base for four weeks is a little seventh grade for them, your feelings are still perfectly valid, but your strategy is largely ineffective in keeping men interested. If your goal is to weed men out in this fashion, it’s also valid. But realize that you’ll be eliminating plenty of good men whose timetable for foreplay is faster than yours. That’s your call. Once again, I’m just letting you know how certain men (including me) think.
@Almita – “If a woman doesn’t know the man very well, and she engages in foreplay, I think she is putting herself in danger of date rape.” Oh, boy. This is like the nuclear bomb of arguments. And, like comparing Republicans with Hitler, it does a real injustice to reasonable people who don’t engage in black and white thinking. You’re right in one regard. If you only go for Starbucks dates – if you never let a man kiss you until you’re SURE he’s husband material – if you keep all men (potential rapists) at arms-length out of fear – you will never ever get date raped. You will also get very few second dates. Because you’re not paying any attention to what HE wants – which is half of what dating is all about.
So let’s make this clear so I never have to say this again. You are entitled to do whatever you want on a date. I don’t judge you for holding out for marriage. I don’t judge you for refusing to kiss men within a month. I don’t judge you for asking him on the first date if he has venereal diseases or what his stance is on women’s rights. I’m just going to let you know that I write this blog as a means to let you know what (many) men think about dating, sex, women, and relationships. If you don’t like it, I’m fine with it. But to play that slippery slope card: “If you let a man get your shirt off, you are in danger of date rape,” is poor argumentation and a dangerous way to think of dating. Foreplay is actually what’s going to keep a guy interested in you while he decides if you’re girlfriend material.
And suggesting that foreplay is putting oneself in danger of date rape is as unrealistic is saying that buying an airplane ticket is the most likely way to die in a plane crash. Yes, it’s true, but that’s not why people board planes. Women should enjoy foreplay because it’s fun, because you like it, because he likes it, and because it’s also a strategic way to keep him interested. If you don’t do these things, I completely respect you. But don’t dismiss my advice as a one-way ticket to date-rape. Please.
Lynn says
Your advice is excellent!
Susan says
Honestly, I find your answer really disrespectful and dismissive. Just because you will stop when feeling aroused and wanting to take foreplay to the next step, because she say ‘no’, doesn’t mean every man can. You can’t know if a guy won’t lose control when horny, it can be excused as our natural instincts after all so if he’s able to complete his need he might do that. So I’m not implying that nobody can refrein in this situation, but laughing of possibility of forcing women into sex is disrespectful. Also, asuming that a simple ‘no’ will always be enough. There are many cases of rape when rapist will end up well, because if this women was kissing him, then they had a foreplay and she allowed him to pull off her clothes/stripped down in front of him, he can easily say that it was just a misunderstanding.
I feel like you forget about the strenght difference between women and men. Add it to aroused man in need of intercourse and having opportunity right in front of him. He might accept his partner’s “no”, but after less than 3 dates (so you wouldn’t be so bored) you won’t know it. Call me some annoying feminist or just a whining bitch, but you shouldn’t ignore the fact that girls getting intimated with guys is vulnerable in physical way and sometimes saying “no” can be to late.
Gerry says
“…doesn’t mean every man can.”
Unless he is so mentally deficient as to be incapable of understanding right and wrong, yes, he can. It’s the difference between a man and a criminal. Men do not respond to disappointments and frustrations with brutality against other human beings.
No relationship is worth persisting with a person who shows real signs of taking out his disappointments violently against another person. If (he) has a neurological problem based in a physiological disorder, you, a layperson, cannot help (him) by other than referring (him) to a specialist in his disorder. Do not be alone with such a person. If (he) will not admit that (he) has a problem, disconnect. “Disconnect” means don’t answer phone calls that show (his) caller ID. “Disconnect” means don’t respond to his texts. E-mails. Snail mails. Keep everything. Don’t delete anything. Print out your entire correspondence as far back as you have (this has proved invaluable in soured business matters). This will show when you cut off the relationship, perhaps why. Knocking on your door. If (he) persists for long, notify law enforcement. You don’t have to file a complaint, get a restraining order or anything to put an appropriate office of public safety. The idea is that the first one to contact law enforcement is given the benefit of the doubt in any situation of violence or threats of violence.
Any reasonable person will soon stop persisting when (he) has been rejected.
I put (he, him) in parentheses as women feeling endangered by men is most commonly a serious matter but women exhibit such behavior, too.
Maggie says
I agree with Almita. The timelines in this article are quite aggressive. “Nothing but kissing for the first 3 dates” frustrating? . Well, if someone is multidating then one would probably be having several guys manhandling one’s boobs and other body parts during the same period of time… uhm- no thanks.
Also this quote: “But to be very clear — you, as a woman, have total control of what you want to happen. And just because you’re both naked and he’s reaching for the condom in his wallet doesn’t mean that you have to have sex. It’s called self-control, y’all.” LOL how naive Evan. Even in a date rape trial the situation you are describing would be considered evidence that the alleged victim was willing to have sex. I would not feel comfortable with letting the situation you describe unfold before at least 3 or 4 weeks of steady dating and being pretty sure that the guy is mentally solid. There are more people with impulse control issues out there than you can imagine
I don’t have anything against foreplay before being bf/gf, no one is “holding out for marriage” , but this whole notion that “good guys” will be lost if one does not “put out” in like 3 dates is a little exaggerated. They are “good guys” in my book anyway.
Pds says
Maybe you just aren’t compatible with the OP? I mean, it’s okay for the OP not to date slow, just like it’s okay for you not to date fast. You can say no to anything beyond kissing, and the OP can say no to your 4th date. I personally have had every relationship involve making out and touching through clothing on the first night, but that’s because mine have all been friends -> chemistry -> physical -> romance -> dating -> more physical.
elli says
I am European and I wonder a little bit about dating rules in America. There is a long thread on this blog on whether a woman should or shouldn ´t ask a man out and the result of the debate seems more or less obvious that she shouldn ´t. On the other hand, it seems to be absolutely appropriate, even desirable, to be physically intimate, although without going into “everything” in the first few dates. I don ´t understand this – isn ´t asking out less “dangerous” than having physical contact with someone you hardly know? So why are the rules so strict here and so lenient in the other area? In general, it has been interesting for me to read about all this stuff about dating, because I think that in Europe people take a more varied and individual approach to dating.
ale says
Bravo Elli! I’m European too, and I guess that these rules ONLY apply to the USA. Here in France, or in Italy, people are completely FREE to handle their dates as they like, no rules involved. Individuality means a variety of behaviours that we (women) are asked to cope with. We are more free, no “appropriate gestures” for each step along the way of dating. No “he was holding my hands, he must like me”. No “we had our 3th date, how long should I wait before sleeping with him. No rules at all. In Paris especially.
Here people are less prude and more free. Which is not always easy to handle, as a man is often sleeping with a woman without taking count of the number of dates they had, or that a certain behaviour is more appropriate than another.
I would really say that these rules DO NOT APLLY to EUROPE.
Pds says
These rules do not apply to anywhere but households with hyperconservative parents. Ask an 100 Americans how dating world in America and you’ll get 100 answers.
Pds says
Americans are perfectly fine with women asking men out, unless you date far right kooky konservative khristians, but those crazies could be offended by anything. Dating DOES have a varied and individual approach here.
For example:
Everyone I’ve dated was a friend first. It got physical second, and romance easily followed, leading to dating and more romance and more intense physical stuff. In all cases, the woman initiated the physical and romantic side of the relationship. Now maybe I’m spoiled by west coast liberal rationality, but I live in a city where people think vaccines cause autism, genetically modified seeds are dangerous, astrology works, homeopathy works, and nuclear plants can explode like nuclear bombs, so I’m not sure rationality is the right word for it.
sylvana says
Hi Ellie,
I’m European as well, and the American dating “rules” absolutely baffle me. And don’t make any sense. They seem very conservative and old fashioned in origin. So you’re not the only one confused by all this.
Leo says
This is pretty spot on.
If you feel like foreplay after the 3rd date is too soon, it’s worse in high school and college.
Sex and foreplay occur at a much slower pace for women their from 40s – 60s compared to the kids in high school and college.
Random hookups (foreplay and intercourse) is rather common–especially in colleges because everyone supposedly “knows each other,” it seems safe, free booze, and the bed is within a 10 minutes walking distance.
Not saying you should be like them. That’s not a good idea.
Just giving you something else to compare to.
Paula says
I found it refreshing to hear that you enjoyed getting sex. I think we women struggle with this simply because our culture vilifies women who openly admit to liking sex and therefore we want to appear like a ‘good girl’. I think we want to show that we are girlfriend material but I think many are not sure when to have sex in the hopes that they don’t appear like ‘sluts’ and as ‘easy’.
I know you are just one man EMK but it would be nice to interview other men to see if they all hold the same experience that you did in that you enjoyed it and couldn’t wait to do it again.
I think if I were a man, I’d be frustrated to be dating a woman who just was interested in fooling around. I think at some point, you’d be able to feel comfortable enough and ready to have sex. I would think a reasonable person would give a few dates and a few weeks or a month or two because you’d get sexually frustrated.
At least for me, sex is like eating and I don’t put this holy value on it like others seem to do. If I’m hungry and someone isn’t going to cook for me, I’ll just go else where and buy my food or make it myself. The only difference between sex and food is that I can go longer without sex. With food, I can go a few hours without it and then problems will arise.
Peter says
Most single men would go from 2004 to 2007 without any opportunity for friendly female companionship never mind sex. Hookups are for 60 women chasing 5 high status males. The ordinary men who would be mesmerized by a woman’s attention don’t get a look in. Women’s experience of sex is rather different than men’s. Playing provocative games without delivering is at the least cruel.
Diana says
As a woman, you do have total control of what you want to happen, but you do not have total control of what will happen. I point this out because while I do believe that the majority of men are decent and willing to play along with the situation, always in hopes of something more, and enjoying the fun that’s to be had, there are also men who do not play nice, especially in situations where the woman says yes and no at the same time.
Gerry says
Many men take it that if a woman doesn’t put up real resistance, considerably more than just saying, “No,” they want intercourse. For many sex is a wrestling match in which she of course “loses.” She wants a take-charge man, one who knows what he wants, and that’s her. He takes “no” as a challenge for him to assert himself. The extra excitement of her fear response is how many women get off.
Of course she doesn’t want to actually be injured, though a little mild pain can make all the more arousal. Millions of women have not been poisoned by radical feminism. They want at least some sexual aggressiveness from their men. Look at the romance novels. The standard plot has the hero doing what feminists call “date rape.” These women’s diddle novels and magazine articles have as a single theme exciting women sexually.
A complaint that I have had repeatedly is that I’m not sexually aggressive enough. They have complained that they don’t want to make the first move, that they don’t want to give me sex; they want me to take them, to take sex from them. I had one, um, incident where we were out in the country alone, making out. She put up resistance, so I backed off. She became angry that I didn’t keep going. I said that she pushed me away. Her response? “So? Aren’t you a man? Can’t you be a man?”I said that I wasn’t a rapist. Her answer was that I had a lot to learn about women.
This is so frustrating. Many women want to be “half raped,” that is, once they’ve picked out or accepted a man, they want to be “gently” forced to have sex. So a guy has to risk a rape complaint to please a woman? How is he supposed to be able to tell if a woman wants him to “rape” her or if she is a feminist with a black belt, who will file a complaint? After beating the shit out of him? Or a feminist who wants to be “raped?”
I met a woman who had a black eye. She said it was from a guy who she turned down for sex at the end of their date. I asked if she had him arrested. She didn’t, so I asked why? She didn’t blame him because she had gone out with him, flirted with him for hours, but didn’t go to bed with him. But she would rather he had forced her to have sex with him instead of hitting her, especially in her face, even though she didn’t use birth control and was in her fertile time, which is why she didn’t want to have sex right then.
This woman toasted my brains. It seems that many are like that. I felt like I should go and beat the guy up. But she could have beaten him down but didn’t.
KTR says
Excellent piece as always.
Another perspective: I’m a girl here, and I wonder why would you WANT a “commitment” of any sort with a man who didn’t turn you on, or who didn’t know how to? It would be like accepting a job with no title just because you thought the company had a pretty name — risky!
As Evan says elsewhere, and this is SO true — us women are doing the choosing as well as the men. Surely “competent between the sheets and physically able to meet my needs as well as his own” is an essential for any sexually active woman? Or at the very least, something to be taking into account when deciding which suitor to accept? Solid foreplay or hooking up is a good way of telling if we’re attracted to them, or if we’re going to be.
Personally, I’ve dated a few guys who were into me, treated me well, good financially and professionally, smart and easy to get on with. Physically, looked good over a dinner table, at the cocktail bar and on my arm. Restaurant chemistry was there. But sexually, they were incredibly nervous.
Now, there’s nervous as in “worried because I like her so much” . Sweet and flattering. And then there’s “nervous to the point of making the whole experience tiresome and unpleasant for the other person because of your own insecurities”.
Let’s put it this way — although they were pretty keen on me before spending the night, and even keener afterwards – I’m very, very, glad I didn’t promise exclusivity to any of them before this point, and could fade without too much hassle.
I mean, I’m 27, so I know as I age, after I’ve had kids, sexuality may/will lose some importance. I don’t expect guys to look or behave like porn stars and/or supermodels and have me “oohing and ahhing in ecstacy within 5 minutes of meeting”.
But I think there IS a level of sexual incompetency which would seriously affect the quality of a relationship. Something I’d want to be aware of before making any decisions or choices or clearing out my schedule for someone. And its not something men would put on their match.com profile.
It’s not about the technicalities — I’m not judging someone on “yes, you must be X inches and stay rock hard for 8 hours and find my “spots” within three minutes”. Or on looks. My best lovers haven’t been the conventionally handsome types. I was with a slightly older, balding, man who couldn’t keep erect with condoms on. Obviously, unprotected sex wasn’t on the cards. The night was AMAZING and one of my most memorable ever, thanks to his enthusiasm (use your imagination ;-)) . From a man, communication and confidence, being aware of the lady’s needs and express his own honest desires (and NOT getting too hung up on performance insecurities) is good.
But I would say – and I’m sure others have experienced this — there are male “good catches” out there who have sexual issues/hang ups AND try and “paper over them” or expect their partners to live with them, rather than deal with them in a practical and non self-conscious manner.
I’m aware of some women who are married to guys with major performance issues (sometimes due to something that could be sorted out in a straightforward manner – like circumcision). The men won’t sort it out, or even discuss it.
Their argument is that they’re married, so that’s meant to be the “reward” for the lady. Well I think I’d much rather settle for being a spinster with cats and the TV on a Friday night 😉
So be careful what you wish for, that “good guy who doesn’t want sex”, could be the cold man who refuses you any bedroom pleasure because it was only “commitment” you wanted, right? 😉
Fusee says
@Evan #3: “If your goal is to weed men out in this fashion, it’s also valid. But realize that you’ll be eliminating plenty of good men whose timetable for foreplay is faster than yours. That’s your call. Once again, I’m just letting you know how certain men (including me) think.”
I’m glad you added this to your initial response because I find valid to progress at a much slower pace in the physical intimacy department. Sure it weeds out decent men, and for me it works just fine to let those go to other women and select for myself a man who can demonstrate a little bit more self-control.
What I would like to comment about is SEX. What is sex? To each their own definition, but for me intercourse is only one sexual act among others. It’s special and symbolic of course, but to me all other sexual acts are sex as well. Oral sex is sex. Mutual masturbation is sex. Dry humping is sex. Anal sex is sex. Intercourse is sex.
When we talk about sex and the concept of not having sex before a commitment is agreed upon, I think of postponing ALL sexual activities. If your fingers make me come, I’m having sex. Also for me oral sex is actually more intimate than any other act, and it comes usually later in the relationship.
On the topic of teasing and the risk of date rape: yes, I agree with previous commenters that such “foreplay dates” lead to a serious risk of creating more tension than fun by going too far in sexual arousal and not “delivering” what is expected. For some men, and some women, this can be really frustrating, sometimes painful, and of course more rarely, end in tragedy. As a woman with a high sex drive, I would not like being brought to a high state of arousal only to be told “sorry this is all I can do for you tonight”. I’d rather do nothing sexual at all.
Also as a previous commenter noted, such fast timetables do not work in scenarios of multiple dating (which I do not do but try to imagine), unless you find acceptable to potentially orgasm with multiple people and still pretend it to be compatible with the concept of “waiting for sex until we have a commitment”. I find this pretty hypocritical.
Julia says
Doesn’t anyone else like sexual attention? If there is no physical attraction or desire why are you dating? I was on a third date last night and we fooled around, nothing too serious and I let it go as far as I was comfortable but I can guarantee he had as good a time as I did and the next time, we will move a bit further….
But if you aren’t being groped by the 2nd-4th date then what’s the point?
Michele says
I think it’s important to emphasize here to that the woman can pull back on sexual attention if she is uncomfortable. Although I agree with Evan on self-control, I’ve been in situations where quite frankly I just didn’t know how to diffuse the moment. I’ve been into the guy as much as he is as me in that moment, and I figure I should go with it. But then, most of the time I never hear from the guy again after sex happens.
june says
evan, i’m sort of confused. I definitely understand all that you’ve laid out here and i think it makes sense, but i’ve always been told waiting until the pants come off before stating sex isn’t in the cards is a tease. Is this more of a subjective take on the topic? While this is your take on the subject do you know any men that would consider this sort of thing a tease and be completely turned off?
Blondie says
As a woman of the same age as Carol this can be a difficult situation when dating men. We’re certainly not young innocent girls anymore and some of us do enjoy sex with a partner. There aren’t any hard and fast rules as you certainly aren’t going to be attracted to every man you meet and every person and situation is different.
The only thing you can go on here is your gut feeling at the time. Go into it with your eyes wide open and if you are just looking for a one night stand because you think the guy is a decent sort, then there’s nothing wrong with it. You certainly do not have to say anything to him about that fact that you think he’s good for sex and that’s about all. Men will pat their buddy on the back and think he’s a cool guy for having a one night stand but they have the opposite reaction when a woman does the same … and makes the mistake of telling him. It’s kind of an ego crusher for them to be treated as just a penis.
If it’s a man you’re interested in and he feels the same, you can take your time about having sex and work out if he is actually going to be a good partner for you. Your feelings, wants and needs are just as important as his are.
Evan’s rule of no sex until you are in a relationship is a good one for most women. It’s easy to get blinded by lust and your libido and think it could be more than it actually is. Saying no to sex until you know he’s your boyfriend is the best thing you can do for your own self-respect and to avoid that walk of shame the next morning wondering if he will ever call or see you again.
Age has nothing to do with it and men will always be men.
If you’re not sure if you’re doing the right thing for yourself by having sex with a man, don’t do it.
Lucy says
Yeah I agree with the essence of what Evan has said. But as someone who has found herself in some compromising situations before, I definitely think that if a woman lets a man get even slightly intimate with her, then it might be best to do that when she is comfortable enough to have sex with him anyway, even if she chooses not to. The trust has to be there. Anyway, I know Evan was not referring to those kinds of situations. His is good advice because if you’re going to be thinking that every bloke is potential rapist, then they’re going to pick up on that.
I’m a bit sceptical about whether a lot of men would appreciate foreplay almost as much as sex. Then again the men I have personally encountered have been quite selfish, and I am only 22. As a result, I have some issues regarding sexual intimacy. I am not religious and nor do I view sex as wrong, but I would have to feel that I’m really comfortable with a man before we got intimate and when it felt right. That wouldn’t be because I was holding off for arbitrary reasons and I would let him know that I wanted it. If someone dropped me for that, then I wouldn’t consider him very understanding.
henriette says
I’m fascinated by these comments! I’ve been someone who’s always taken at least a month between the first kiss and intercourse, but not because I was trying to use sex as a lure for committment. Rather, I enjoy the exquisite ache of slowly getting to know a man’s body and responses, teaching him how I like to be kissed and touched… this takes time and is part of the fun, bonding process. Sure, a few guys have grumbled here and there about blue balls or begged “Just the tip!?” But without fail, they have been okay with the slower pace because I made it clear that I was crazy attracted to them, that I was turned on, and that we were progressing, slowly but surely.
For those of you who think it’s unfair, I have found it pretty easy to tell men just as we’re starting to fool around that sex isn’t going to happen that night. If they complain, I take their concerns seriously and explain — with absolutely no snark — that I’d love to make out but understand if they want to call it a night bc sex isn’t going to happen. Thus far, every single one has decided to stick around for the make out… they’d rather have a tiny taste of sugar than none at all : )
Birdlife says
personally me and my guy have turned the “pants off without sex” into something of an art form – its actually very erotic
Heather says
@ EMK:
While I agree, it IS about self-control, like a few other posters have said, there are some bad guys out there who can get very nasty and/or violent if they feel that they are being “cock-teased” in any way. One never really knows what that other person is capable of. That is why I tried to be very careful with fellows on the first date. Many times I would not let a guy come into my house after a date, would say goodnight on my front stoop or front hallway and would not allow more than maybe a kiss or hug, maybe a little bit of making out. I’d make it clear if they tried for more, that I’d prefer not to do more on the first date. If I kept having to repeat myself, than the guy went out the door.
I’ve had a couple of scary experiences where a guy really got enraged if I wouldn’t “put out” or wanted to back off/move more slowly, so I am a LOT more cautious with men I do not know well. It’s about self control for ME, as well, learning that I can say “no, please don’t do that, etc.” And also to not PUT myself in a situation where something scary might well happen.
Yes, I don’t want to shame a guy or make him think that there is nothing there, etc. But because of what is out there, it’s always better to be safe, than sorry. And I’m with an earlier poster, if an otherwise good guy is put off by that, well that’s OK, I’d rather let a good guy go and stand by my boundaries and need to feel safe. The right guy will get it, will work with me as I get comfortable with him as we progress and I work with him as well.
Karmic Equation says
I agree with KTR that it’s just as important to a woman to figure out if a man is man enough in the bedroom before promising exclusivity to him.
And I also agree with Lucy 16 that a woman shouldn’t indulge in any sexual activity until she’s determined that she would be comfortable having sex (but then just decides not to go all the way). And I agree with Fusee that oral sex is more intimate than regular sex. I actually save that for when a guy is close to being my BF. I never indulge in that during ONS or early in a relationship.
If a guy is a good kisser, he is usually good in bed, too. So end your dates with some great kisses…and hopefully by the 3rd date you’ll have decided whether you’re ok having sex with him, then only indulge in what’s comfortable for you. You don’t have to go all the way.
@Maggie
If you can’t tell by the 3rd date if the guy is a someone who could be violent, then you may need to adjust your goodguy-dar. I usually know within 15 minutes of talking to someone if they are a good person. I would definitely know by the end of the first date. I don’t go on 2nd dates with guys whom I don’t 100% trust to begin with. Or say it another way, if I’m not sure if the guy is a good guy after the first date, there is no 2nd date.
If you are so fearful of date rape that you believe date rape is probable instead of just possible, you need to get that thinking process adjusted. Maybe therapy? (Not being rude, I think therapy is a real help to people). Anything is possible, but date rape isn’t probable if your goodguy-dar works like it should.
Snooki says
many women who have been abused by their spouse were married for years before the first incident. guess their good guy radar wasn’t working too well for them.
if a woman is raped it is because she is a bad judge of character and needed to adjust her good guy radar. her fault.
women like you are why women hate each other
Liz says
I have never ever been pressured for sex. Not called back because I wouldn’t let my boundaries subside for a night…well yes… on that question. I do think that slowly opening up to someone on an intimate level is important with dating. If everything is going well, that means a slow kiss goodnight on the first date. On the second date I make it a point to touch him during conversation and be affectionate, along with more kissing. By the 3-4 date, there is usually some serious kissing and fondling. Sometimes the clothes are on, sometimes they are slightly off, and sometimes, dear God we are very close to each other completely naked. But, while I allow slow progression, there is no sexual intercourse (oral [okay sometimes they go down on me but that doesn’t count :)} or dipping even the head in) until I feel safe. To feel safe, I have to be in a exclusive relationship, know what I can expect as far as frequency in seeing each other, and know he is open to it being more than a few months of fun. A gentleman can enjoy being frisky, exploring you, pleasing you, and will wait for you to be ready to accept and enjoy all of him. Actually I think the: “I saw her naked, I had fun in pleasing her and turning her on, and want to do it again, and further” is exactly where you want his head to be.
Lisa says
I completely agree with you Liz. This has been my experience as well…I can usually tell quickly who I want to continue dating, who I want to do more than kissing with…etc. If the man makes me feel uncomfortable, I only go so far. If I feel comfortable and trust that he will stick around, I fool around a bit more. I only have sex with a man if he’s my boyfriend…that is something I learned not to compromise on the hard way. Yes, some good men have walked away, but they didn’t really want a committed relationship. It took some time, but I finally found exactly what I wanted by following Evan’s advice! Ultimately, you have to do what feels right to you…but I believe that being fearful will not help anyone create the relationship of their dreams.
JB says
This is another great topic with an obvious myriad of opinions above me. First let me say that as a guy I do agree with about 99.9% of the advice Evan gives on this blog and in his practice. What absolutely blows my mind is the amount of TV shows there’s been on this summer with so called “Match Makers”, “Dating experts”, and other advice type shows filled with goofballs(“Miss Advised” anyone…???) and they don’t hold a candle to Evan and his expertise. What I’m trying to say is Hollywood is missing the boat. Evan should have his own TV show. They even gave Steve Harvey one starting today because of his so so book he wrote. Evan, you need a better agent!
Anyway the topic at hand…. As someone that’s been dating ohhhh about 32 yrs now Evans’ right men just want to see things “progressing” over time. Every couple has their own “timetable”… depending on age, life circumstances, beliefs, goals, etc… and that’s fine.
@ KTR #10 brought up a good point about making a commitment to someone BEFORE you’ve had intercourse only to find out that you have bad chemistry like I did last year and had to end it after 15 dates because of no sexual chemistry. We waited about 12 dates. Like someone above me said it’s different for different age goups. She’s in her 40’s and I’m a little older so I’m no hurry and don’t have any “timetable rules” per se it’s always different depending on a lot of variables. Suffice to say at my age I haven’t had intercourse on a third date or earlier in many years nor have I wanted to but I love to make out. (except for one incredible one night stand with a woman from out of town but that doesn’t count…lol that had nothing to do with “dating”) Sure anyone can wait until you’re exclusive to have intercourse but there’s no guarantee of KEEPING someone after you’ve made that pact. You still have to have something to sustain it.
You see what’s rarely talked about is the “skin starvation” factor meaning sometimes people at my age can wake up and figure out….not only have I not had sex in months I can’t remember the last time I actually made out with someone or passionately kissed someone whether I was wildly attracted or not. So it’s not always about the “orgasm” which we can all give ourselves, sometimes it’s just about the affection/foreplay that we all crave and love. Pants on or off!
Karmic Equation says
@JB 22 You see what’s rarely talked about is the “skin starvation” factor meaning sometimes people at my age can wake up and figure out….not only have I not had sex in months I can’t remember the last time I actually made out with someone or passionately kissed someone whether I was wildly attracted or not. So it’s not always about the “orgasm” which we can all give ourselves, sometimes it’s just about the affection/foreplay that we all crave and love. Pants on or off!
Well said. There’s no age restrictions up or down for the “skin starvation” factor. I would absolutely agree that that is why we need to have sex. Orgasms can be self-delivered. Skin on skin, yeah, we need another body for that!
Wendy says
@Karmic Equation #20 (and anyone else who insists people can quickly and easily determine good guys from bad guys), I give you this:
The BTK Killer, Dennis Rader, killed 10 people in Wichita, Kansas over a 30-year period. He was married with two children, a Boy Scout leader, employed as a local government official and was the president of his church congregation.
The Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway confessed to killing 48 women over a 20-year period in the Seattle, Washington area. He was married, held the same job for 32 years, attended church regularly and read his Bible at home and at work.
Robert Yates killed 17 prostitutes in the 1990s in the Spokane, Washington area. He was married, had five children, lived in a middle-class neighborhood and was a decorated U.S. Army National Guard helicopter pilot.
Please stop telling us our goodguy-dar is defective just because you’ve been lucky. As someone who has been raped, I can ASSURE you–it’s not as simple as you think, and caution is never a bad thing.
Julia says
@wendy if you think every guy is a killer just never leave the house. You can know a man for years and he can kill you, hell you could get in your car to leave work today and die on the way home. Fear can’t be something that controls you, period.
Almita says
@Wendy #24 Thank you for the reality check.
I recently went out with two different men. At the end of the first date with each man, I said goodbye by kissing the man on the mouth (not an open mouth French kiss, but a kiss on the mouth). Both men asked me for second dates.
On the second dates, both men were constantly trying to kiss and grope me, even though we were in very public places (in a restaurant, on a sidewalk in front of open shops, in a parking lot, in a city park where there was an event with hundreds of people). I felt that if these men had such little sense of boundaries in terms of access to my body when we were in a public place then they would have no sense of boundaries if we were in private.
In the end, the first man did not contact me again. The second man did ask me for a third date, which I declined.
Heather says
@ Wendy,
As a fellow rape and domestic abuse survivor, I can totally understand your caution and pain.
It’s easy for others to sit and judge when they have no clue what it is like. Sure, we should not let our fears and our past ruin our future. But still, some caution and nervousness is hard-wired, and for good reason.
It is perfectly OK to be cautious with men you don’t know. No, we don’t have to interrogate each guy we come across, but using wisdom and caution is never, ever a bad thing. I learned valuable lessons from the nightmares I endured and I am much more thoughtful, careful, and pay a LOT more attention to red flags now, than I ever did. I was so blind to caution flags certain guys would send up, and I got hurt. Now, I watch and pay attention. I’d check in with a friend on a first date. Go to a public place, and say, “NO!!!” if a guy tried something on me that I was not comfortable with and it scared me.
Wendy says
@Julia #25: I’m not saying every guy is a murderer/rapist and we should all stay at home with the doors locked for the rest of our lives, for heaven’s sake! I’m responding to the folks on here who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her. It’s ridiculous and potentially dangerous advice to tell someone to get therapy to “fix” themselves because they’re cautious-types and choose to be aware of their surroundings. I guess you think women who take self-defense courses are nut jobs, too. Someone is sexually assaulted in the U.S. every TWO MINUTES. That equates to approximately 208,000 per year, and almost 40% occur at the hands of someone the victim considers a friend or acquaintance. Do you think these THOUSANDS of women all just have broken goodguy-dar? I pray it never happens to you, but it is a possibility that shouldn’t be so blithely dismissed.
Those of us who exhibit a reasonable amount of caution are not crazy phobics, and frankly I’m tired of being called one because I don’t jump in the sack with somebody before I even know his name. Good luck to you.
Evan Marc Katz says
What a shame that this thread has devolved into a discussion of rape, instead of the genuinely useful topic of what to expect sexually from the dating process. No one is minimizing rape or sexual assault here. But you can’t make every discussion about sex come back to the perceived threat of violence. I mean, you CAN, but it’s just an endless loop for the vast majority of men who have never assaulted a woman. So please, if you have something to add about the original post on how you can use foreplay before having intercourse, I’d love to hear what you have to say. If you’re going to continue to imply that foreplay can’t be used – because some douche called you a cocktease and therefore men are scary and dangerous – well, then you can probably keep those comments to yourselves. You’re entitled to your feelings, but it’s not remotely constructive to continue to instill fear in a conversation about the 99% of dates where foreplay/sex occur without any violence.
snooki says
the fact that you are surprised that your advice turned into a discussion about date rape shows your blind spot as a man. maybe you don’t know women as well as you think you do.
maybe you are unaware that the most common defense used for rapists is that she was asking for it because she was drinking and/or consented to engage in some form of sexual activity sans penetration. this still happens today. see karmic equation’s ignorant comments on the next page telling a woman poster her friend got raped because she was drunk and wearing the wrong thing.
maybe you are also unaware that everyone has the right to have their own boundaries. if a woman is uncomfortable with petting etc before she’s ready for sex, thats her right. please stop assuming she’s so stupid she doesn’t understand that a conservative approach to sex might turn off some good guys, that she needs to be reminded to get naked or else. it’s still her right,
no one is calling all men rapists. the fact the you had to come back with uncited statistics to convince women that rape rarely happens so drop those panties, girl! says a lot about you. there is huge area between trusting no men and trusting all men.
no one is questioning that petting and foreplay without sex can be fun (and most of us have known that since we were 13).
the point is everyone has the right to have their boundaries respected and adopt whatever sense of caution they choose to feel safe.
now given your propensity to censor comments that question or disagree with you, i don’t expect to see this in the comments section. but for once try to listen instead of insisting your answers are always right and must fit every women because after all we are all alike right?!
Sel says
As someone who has just recently joined the online dating world and just started coming to this site, I would say that Evan’s comments are right on. Sex, like relationships should be a progression. I don’t believe in any set number of dates or rules for it but go by how I feel about the other person and how well I know them. Of course trust is a given because I will not go on multiple dates with anyone who seems “off”. I’ve been in a serious relationship where we didn’t have sex (but built up to it) for months and one where we had full sex on the third date. It also depends on how the dates go because I’ve had good dates go for 4-6 hours, most of it talking, learning about each other, and enjoying each other’s company. It’s only natural that at the end of a great date, you want some physical contact and want more as time goes on. I only have sex when I’m ready and don’t do casual sex. Most men know the drill and try the the normal progression across multiple dates of light kissing, making out, a little groping, clothing removal, intense contact, and so on. I’ve always felt like I could set the pace though, even if some men are more persistant then others, and never felt unsafe. I also think men find the build up fun and exciting, even if they are a little frustrated. And, I believe that skill in foreplay is an indication of how good and giving a man is in bed.
Karl R says
Wendy, (#24)
If you treat a man like he’s a potential serial killer (or a rapist), all the decent men will dump you. We’re accustomed to being treated much better than that.
Two of my most serious relationships were with women who had been raped. They didn’t treat me like I was a potential rapist.
You can try to justify your paranoia all you want, but the decent men won’t cut you slack. If you went on a first date with a wealthy, successful man, and he treated you like a gold-digger, would you go on a second date with him? No matter how many times he’d been ripped off by women (or how much money he’d lost), you would see no justification in him treating you in that manner.
I expect common-sense precautions, particularly in online dating where you start out as strangers. But if you can’t move past that stage quickly, you’re sending out all sorts of negative signals.
Almita said: (#26)
“I felt that if these men had such little sense of boundaries in terms of access to my body when we were in a public place then they would have no sense of boundaries if we were in private.”
That’s correct. This isn’t rocket science. If a man doesn’t respect your boundaries, he’s not one of the good guys. He’s not a safe bet to be alone with.
And it took you less than two dates to discover this.
Wendy says
Karl R #31, I’m assuming you haven’t read my response (#28).
I am not, nor do I advocate, living in fear because I KNOW all men are not murderers/rapists. I am not paranoid and I honestly don’t understand what in my posts is giving people that impression. Do you lock your house before going to bed at night? Does that make you paranoid? I have had good dates, bad dates, GREAT dates, and several turned into quality relationships (including the one I’m in now). I could not have accomplished any of this if I was so fearful and mistreating. Just because I pointed out that there are certain risks a single girl takes when going out alone with a guy she’s never met, and that I don’t think 15 minutes is enough time for most of us to know for certain that a man is safe to get into a car with, doesn’t make me a bad person.
It was never my intention to focus on rape, but I don’t appreciate being misunderstood and need to make sure my message is clear.
Now, can we please get back to the post at hand? I think one of the things that’s been missing from many of these posts is simple conversation. If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk? Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him about his. The objective is to make sure you’re both on the same page. Whether you’re a girl who likes to jump into sex quickly or hold off until he’s officially a “boyfriend,” why keep him guessing or make him try to figure out your body language? Men aren’t mind readers and often have no idea what we want from them. Just because the last girl they dated had sex on date three doesn’t mean you will (or should) if that’s not right for you, but how else is he going to know that if you don’t tell him? I personally think these conversations can be almost as much fun as the foreplay that follows, and definitely lets the guy know that I’m interested without undoing so much as one button until we’re both ready.
Maggie says
Karl R-
Why is using common sense precautions (like you yourself suggest) “treating a man like a serial killer/rapist”?? I don’t think Wendy suggested she was doing this, you are just jumping to conclusions. And further, do you think that wealthy men are not cautious and observant of ALL new women they date? Of course they are, let’s not be naive! That does not mean that one has to be demeaning. And if a guy is not happy if I don’t want to take my clothes off by the third date for a full-on heavy petting session, then good riddance! The bottom line is that some people are fortunate enough to be asked on a lot of dates, and even if a woman gets a feeling a guy is “a good guy”, one may want to go on more than just 3 dates before going to second or 3rd base- there are just too many options and other guys to explore possibilities with, and also some women are just not comfortable with going to 2nd and 3rd base with simultaneous people. But this is totally off- topic. Can one have their clothes off and not have full-on sex? To me the answers is obviously yes (it’s called 3rd base in case we forgot our HS vocabulary) and (to me) it can happen before commitment but not before the first 6 dates or so. Second base after the 4th date or so. All the boyfriends I’ve had (including the current one) have been top notch in the looks and success department but without the douchebaggery and sense of entitlement some men like them have. So this formula works for me.
Daphne says
Interesting that I have never met a guy I perceived as disturbed or dangerous on about 30 Match dates. The two most offensive guys were 1) a man I went to college w (and knew slightly, many years ago), who got very harmlessly drunk during the date; and 2) the gazillionaire private equity guy who took one look at me in the foyer of the restaurant **and walked out**.
I got involved w my ex boyfriend too fast and became a booty call, but never felt in danger going to his house etc. But as all EMK readers know- that’s what happens w first date sex. I’m sorry that this has turned into a discussion of date rape.
RW says
@Karl R: I don’t think anyone was actually suggesting treating men like potential rapists. It’s a given that any man would and should run away if treated with that suspicion from the get-go. I think the only point being made was that the line between yes and no is a fine one and even after 3, 4 or 5 dates we don’t know how a man is going to react if we fool around for a while and then decide we don’t want to go any further. Not suggesting he will rape us, just that it might have been better not to go so far if you had no intention of seeing it all the way through. All depends on the circumstances, I guess.
Also, “move past that stage quickly” is very subjective. Not to state the obvious but that is the takeaway here. If your definition is different from that of the general populace you’re going to get passed over many times before you find your Prince Charming. BUT, as long as you’re okay with the consequences there is nothing wrong with being different. I make this point only because the tone of some of the posts above seemed to suggest that the women who were different were silly for not changing themselves and towing the party line.
I can’t believe that I just read the “having sex is like eating” bit yet again. Seriously? No, Paula, they are not the same thing. You may think they are but they are not. Believe it or not, it is possible to get through many, many, many years of your life without having sex or even a self induced orgasm. Not a happy situation maybe but quite a possible one. The same cannot be said for eating. Yes you’ll go somewhere else if someone won’t cook for you but you HAVE to eat if you want to survive. You do not HAVE to have sex. Yes, it’s healthy, it makes you feel good, blah, blah, blah but it’s still a want. Nourishing yourself is a need.
I apologize for the sarcasm but really, I didn’t know how else to respond. I should know better but I can’t resist replying. I think I deserve some credit for being nice the last time I wrote a rebuttal to that comment 😀
Evan Marc Katz says
@Wendy #32
“Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him about his.”
You try that and let me know how it goes. Normal people don’t state their expectations on the first date. “Hi, I’m Evan. I’m an intellectual snob and I’m hoping that you read the New York Times cover to cover like I do. I’m also a pretty outspoken liberal who is culturally Jewish but I’m really more of an atheist. Hope that’s cool with you – especially when I want to raise our children Jewish. Oh, and I’m used to going pretty far on first dates, so what do you think? Are we a match?”
There are people who date like this. They are not the ones you want to see a second time. They’re trying to read the last page of the book without reading the book.
You don’t discuss what’s going to happen physically on a date. You go on a date. You make a move. You see where it goes – both parties consenting, or not. The idea that you can negotiate this stuff at dinner is tone deaf to normal conventions.
As for those who feel men are “entitled” like RW, Maggie, and Heather: please pay attention to what I actually wrote. You can do whatever you want physically. No one is judging you or keeping score. Really. Men don’t think, “I’d better get to third base by date 3 or else,” especially if they like you. So I’m encouraging you not to assume that men who try to move faster physically are “bad”, anymore than you should be termed “frigid” for wanting to move slow. They’re both unfair labels, and your inability to see the grey areas between “rapist” and “man who reaches for your belt buckle on Date 4, but is okay if you say no” is the only reason I’m prolonging this conversation.
Wendy says
Evan #36: I didn’t say do this on the first date. I said, and I quote: “If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk?” For me, this usually happens at home or in the car, not on a public date, and I never said that it did. All of my best relationships have incorporated quality conversation, and all of my failed relationships have been lacking in this area. Communication is as important to me as compatibility in the bedroom, so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with finding out of we can talk effectively early-ish in the dating phase, just like most everyone else is making sure they can have good sex early-ish.
And by conversation I don’t mean approaching it so matter-of-factly as you have implied. Of course you wouldn’t have made it to the second date with me if that had been your first! I’ve always had so much fun with this part–why is everyone so afraid to talk to each other? I’m sure we all know by now how women can overthink things, so body language and mind-reading alone can lead to big misunderstadings.
Here’s an example of what I mean, for clarification: I believe it was on the third or fourth date with my current boyfriend (only a few goodnight kisses had been exchanged by this point), I said something along the lines of, “So…what do YOU like to do?” stated with a sly smile. He replied with a big grin and it went from there. We talked that night for about four hours (JUST talked) before he went home. We waited another two dates before having full-on, but we continued that original conversation and added in some physical contact. By the time we actally had sex, the build-up made it AWESOME.
Now, a year later, we STILL talk like we did. In fact, I often use this blog for material (“So, what would YOU do if….”). We have FUN with this, and it usually leads to great FUN later in the bedroom. If no one can see the difference between having some fun sexual banter and an interrogation, then we really are in trouble!
Heather says
@ EMK:
I think you have grossly misunderstood and unfairly judged women like me and Wendy.
Please, tell me exactly where and when I said that men are “entitled”? Seriously?
Women can, and damn well SHOULD use common sense precautions when meeting someone new. I’m not saying that you have a conversation within 10 minutes of meeting “yes, hi there, I’m Heather and I expect sex only after we’ve been dating for a little while.” Not at all.
What I AM saying, is that we women do have the right to be careful, cautious, and if we feel it’s unsafe to put ourselves in a situation where we feel uncomfortable, then by all means, we should do so. We women have control over ourselves and our dating lives, and isn’t that what you’ve been trying to get across here in this blog? So to use that logic, then doesn’t it make common sense to go, “OK, Heather. You’ve been raped and abused in a marriage. Think about what happened. Learn from that. Set better boundaries. Watch men more, don’t just blindly trust after 10 minutes. If you don’t feel comfortable having foreplay/intercourse on the first date, then don’t PUT yourself in a situation where that could happen.”
THAT is all I am saying. I find it quite commendable that people like Wendy are moving on with their lives. We have a choice, we can sit and hide in fear or we can get out there and move on. She and I have chosen to do that, but do so with a bit more caution than before.
Maybe you’re one of the guys who are fine with a woman stopping you if you guys are rounding 3rd base and she’s not liking it/getting freaked out/what have you. But there are “some” guys who are not. And it’s better to get to know a guy a little bit, IMO, before going there and then finding out the hard way.
Ruby says
EMK #36
“Normal people don’t state their expectations on the first date.”
What Wendy actually said was, “If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk? Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him about his. The objective is to make sure you’re both on the same page.”
Why is this a bad thing? Notice that she didn’t advocate grilling the guy on the first date, which, I agree, would be hasty. Since it’s usually men who do the pursuing in the beginning, women are generally the ones setting limits.
L_M says
Having been a longtime lurker but never commented, here’s a few things I feel has to be pointed out. The reading inability and logical fallacies are teeth-gritting.
@ Aimita re comment #02 – In the original post, Evan mentions that only kissing for 3 dates is a little frustrating. He did not say anything about it being a golden rule that had to be followed, or encased in stone, The 2nd paragraph of your reply gives your POV and a minimum timeframe of what YOU reckon you’re not comfortable with. The problem arises, when you extrapolate your POV and the validity of situations based only on your POV, in your subsequent replies.
Your 3rd paragraph is the kind of reply that makes eyes roll/glaze over in any serious debate/discussion and immediately induces the urge to dismiss you as a candidate for measured non-exaggerated discourse (It’s only the 2nd comment, and we’re already at the Godwin’s Law equivalent of discussing foreplay/date progression ie rape).
“I know that I can control myself, but I can’t control the other person. If a woman doesn’t know the man very well, and she engages in foreplay, I think she is putting herself in danger of date rape.”
I always took it that Evan was giving advice to those who were either unsure or didn’t know what he speaks of, and that he always treats his audience with the respectful premise that they have a certain amount of caution and commonsense, but just need that extra edge. According to you, a woman has to know a man VERY well, before engaging in foreplay. So what’s your definition of knowing the man well, and how long will it take? Can you seriously put a concrete time limit on such things? Having dated men and women, I can tell you that I didn’t need to know them VERY well, before having foreplay. It depends on where I’m coming from, and how I suss out the comfort zones and stop short at any major red flags, as I go along.
Maggie in #04 also seems to have a similar misunderstanding. Evan is mentioning that only kissing for 3 dates is a bit frustrating. He’s stating his viewpoint, which I can say is quite valid for most of my friends (some are experienced daters who’ve done everything from one-night-stands to more, and are now married). How it becomes twisted and exaggerated in interpretation, as a rule to allow men to manhandle boobs and more within- Here’s Evan’s original lines:
“Or three straight dates with nothing but kissing. That was a little frustrating.”
Maggie, you say the timeline in this post is aggressive. Please point out where Evan insists on a fixed timeline for how and what things are supposed to happen, and then we can see what aggressiveness you speak of. As I understood, he was giving his feelings and viewpoint, not rules. I read a post that tries to illustrate progression in steps and examples, but I don’t see anything fixed in gold. Your reply implies you do. Please, point it out.
I would also like to point out that if one’s approach is ultra-conservative from a religious/cultural/safety POV, that’s fine FOR YOU. One would do better with ultra-conservatives (eg. one must know the other person VERY well, before foreplay of any sort is allowed). But please keep in mind that there will be a reduced availability of people to your liking. If (generic) you are going to make your moral stance crystal-clear on the first date, you’ll have to be very careful HOW you do it, such that your firmness doesn’t translate into aggressiveness. Because if the other person gets the impression that your mindset and morals must extend to your partner, then you’re making them think you are likely going to be difficult and inflexible when you don’t get your way (which may border on ridiculous), then I have no interest in going further with somebody like that. I respect boundaries, but having YOUR law laid down on me like a drill sergeant, wet nanny or arrogant child does not make people hang aorund.
I don’t agree with everything Evan says, but I can agree with most of what he says. His stance is that he is catering for the masses. Given what I know of my male and female friends, most of them would identify with more than half of what he’s saying, mindset-wise.
@ Wendy re comment #28 – I read your comments 24 and 28. And I’m not surprised at Karl R’s or Julia’s responses. You cite statistics and examples, especially in #24 and give me the extreme impression that you are driving a point home that you are intent on tarring the entire forest as ash. You also seem to be missing the point of what you’re trying to advocate VS the actual impression your words are giving. I quote 2 examples below:
I’m responding to the folks on here who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her.
Who are the folks here, who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her? Not Evan. Not Karl R. Not I. Not Julia.
Those of us who exhibit a reasonable amount of caution are not crazy phobics, and frankly I’m tired of being called one because I don’t jump in the sack with somebody before I even know his name. Good luck to you.
You’re implying that you’re being called a crazy-phobic, because you don’t jump in the sack with someone without even knowing their name. NOBODY here is asking or telling you to jump in the sack with someone without knowing their name. I wouldn’t call you a crazy-phobic. But I might call you crazy about other things, and stay far away from you, because you seem a little too keen to prove that evil men exist out there and it’s almost impossible to be safe… not to mention a disconnect from what is being said Vs what you’re interpretting and putting out there.
People, being traumatised by rape is horrible. And scarring. But extrapolating not knowing a man well enough by YOUR definition = foreplay = likely rape should not be used as it is here because frankly speaking, that’s doing a real disrespectful disservice to rape victims.
And frankly, regardless of gender, that’s where the problem lies with several posters here. A questionable reading comprehension obviously clouded by assumptions, flawed logic, an inability to recognise and step outside of the limitations of their mindset that they don’t realise (and recognise another POV as valid, equally valid or being more valid), hence leading to the impressions given in the wording.
Evan is obviously giving flexible and respectful advice (which he has acknowledged before in earlier posts, does not extend to everybody but is for the masses) based on the premise that the readers are mature enough to apply what they will as they wish, to their own situations. He has also added his POV about likely consequences and limiting factors. He is not ramming golden rules down your throat here. Some replies however, imply otherwise. Some readers, obviously, are not returning him the flexibility and respect.
Wendy says
@L_M #40: To clarify, AGAIN, I was responding specifically to Karmic Equation who stated in post #20 that she usually knows within 15 minutes of talking to someone if they are a good person. My statistics were meant only to show that this is not always the case. If I’d simply said “Yeah, well, some good guys are actually bad, so there!” without backing it up with facts, I’d have been called out on that. And to suggest someone get counseling because they exhibit common-sense caution with men they don’t know is insulting. And AGAIN, you’re misinterpreting my suggestion that getting to know a man before going off into the night with him is the same as “Treat all men like they’re murdering rapists!” How are you coming to that conclusion? Honestly!
It sounds to me like the OP had the kind of lasting, loving, faithful relationship that I (and many others) are hoping to one day find. That being said, since she’s been “virtuous” to the point of no longer needing to prove it, I hope she now gets the chance to have some fun with her new single status, sex and all.
Karmic Equation says
@Heather 38 Maybe you’re one of the guys who are fine with a woman stopping you if you guys are rounding 3rd base and she’s not liking it/getting freaked out/what have you. But there are “some” guys who are not. And it’s better to get to know a guy a little bit, IMO, before going there and then finding out the hard way.
There’s no guarantee that the guy will be ok with stopping if you don’t indulge until the 100th date, when you’ve gotten to know him super well. When you indulge is not the determining factor if a guy will or won’t be ok with stopping. It’s the character of the GUY himself. If he has issues he will have them at any date. If you find yourself with more guys who are NOT ok than ok with stopping when you say so, you have a broken picker. If you only have an N=1 experience, then this is not statistically significant to worry about. I’m sorry it happened to you, but it’s still not statiscally significant, and you can’t paint all men with the same brush.
If you’re just IMAGINING this happens without any actual experience with this, then you need to stop the negative thinking. You are what you think. There’s a study (forgot where I read this one) – that the unconscious mind does not know “good” thoughts from “bad” thoughts, just simply that you have the thoughts. But whatever you think is what your mind moves you towards. So if You think men are potential rapists and every “stop” will engender negative reactions from men, you mind will keep helping you find those kind of men.
@Maggie33 and Wendy37
When you have sex or sexual activities is not the determining factor but rather the MAN HIMSELF. If it takes you 8 dates, then it takes you 8 dates. Some of us can get there on 1-3 dates. some of us can filter/decide faster than others. There’s no right or wrong.
@Wendy37
Great clarification. Bantering and communication is a good way of getting the sexual info across in a fun way. This is what I meant by having the kind of conversation that helps you get to know the guy. If your guy wasn’t a good bantering type whom attracted you, you wouldn’t have indulged and would have moved on.
You’re actually doing what EMK is advocating just with a little delay in the action and a little longer on the conversation/getting to know stage.
JustMe says
Karmic Equation #20
“Maggie
If you can’t tell by the 3rd date if the guy is a someone who could be violent, then you may need to adjust your goodguy-dar. I usually know within 15 minutes of talking to someone if they are a good person. I would definitely know by the end of the first date.”
This is the comment Wendy originally replied about. Her point to this specific comment (although she left it unspecified) was it is not always easy to tell the the good guys from the bad guys.
SalsaQ says
Who are the folks here, who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her? Not Evan. Not Karl R. Not I. Not Julia
Karmic 20 I usually know within 15 minutes of talking to someone if they are a good person.
Fusee says
Although I agree that some commenters come across as “intense” or as having a “black or white” mindset, I also understand where they are coming from. They are coming from their own experience that was not necessarily positive. And it’s good for the rest of us – women and men – to learn from them as well. Dating can be light, playful, and fun, but not always.
It is unfair of women who are fine with early sex/sex without a commitment or of men who are rarely victims of abuse to label women who remind others to be cautious as “paranoid”. And blog posts such as this one are going to trigger these reminders of being cautious because they somewhat advice people to rely on trust and non-verbal communication in an area where misunderstandings between people are rampant. Some people are really naive and need to be reminded that playing with fire can burn.
Also, if Evan gives priceless advice geared to “the masses”, the benefit of his allowing respectful comments is to have a chance to share/read opinions coming from mindsets a bit on the right or the left of the bell-shaped curve. A lot of people do not fit the “average”. I certainly do not.
Back to the question: “How can you take your pants off without having sex?”
Well, you take them off (or let him take them off : ), do whatever you are fine doing, and simply say no to what you do not want to do. Easy.
But as for everything in life, it’s best to examine potential consequences before engaging in something risky. And it IS risky to engage in foreplay if you do NOT want intercourse AND if you have not clearly communicated your limits before starting. Not risky because of an unlikely risk of abuse, but simply because of a risk of not sticking to your own limits and/or creating misunderstandings and unnecessary frustrations when clarifying your limits “at the last minute”.
If you really want to refrain from sex, you have to realize that relying on one’s self-control or on the self-control of someone in a high state of sexual arousal is foolish. This is going to play in favor of the one who does not have such limits. However if you have a strong self-control and know that your partner does as well because you’ve communicated your limits clearly and learned from experience that they are likely to not be frustrated, then you have more chance to keep your date fun and playful while playing with fire.
Therefore I agree with Wendy on the communication part. I’m always talking about sex before doing it. My motto: “if you can’t talk about it, you should not be doing it”. It does not need to be on date #1 and it does not need to be that matter-of-factly and it does not need to be that rigid. But I certainly use the transition to sex as a place to assess the ability to handle uncomfortable discussions where conflicting needs (when, what) and simple safety measures (safe sex, birth control) are involved. And this really encourages the getting-to-know process and the building of more emotional intimacy. It’s been always an enlightening (although uncomfortable) pivotal event in my relationships. Makes me decide to keep going or to opt out. Not because of the actual content of the conversation, but how the whole process is being handled. Emotionally immature people have always tried to avoid talking about it. Interesting.
Not going to give this up!
Evan Marc Katz says
@Fusee – You don’t have to give this up. You just have to concede a point.
I’ve been with hundreds of women who participated willingly in foreplay without intercourse. There were no conversations about limits beforehand. Ever.
You’re only attuned to one type of risk – the one that says that two adults can’t stop themselves from having intercourse.
I want you to be attuned to the other type of risk – that by trying to communicate about foreplay through conversation, you’re actually hurting your own chances. It’s not that you’re “wrong” for desiring clarity on what could potentially be an uncomfortable situation. It’s that, for the vast majority of people, these things are more naturally communicated by him reaching for a body part and you moving his hand away. To discuss these things beforehand would be, at best, odd, and at worst, a turn-off. Such conversations about how far you’re going to go are borne out of fear, not confidence.
Should you discuss STDs before intercourse? Yes. Should you figure out exclusivity before intercourse? Yes. But anything else that you want to discuss – whether you like it or not – comes across as insecure, unnatural and unnecessarily probing. Once again, you are entitled to your actions and beliefs and I wish you well with them. I only wrote this post – and these comments – to point out that the mechanism you’re using to protect yourself from risk carries a risk of its own.
Thanks for your contributions.
Karmic Equation says
Guilty as charged! I made that comment. *I* usually do know if someone is a good person after 15 minutes. Perhaps I could qualify the statement…I usually do know within 15 minutes “if that person is a good enough person to get to know better within 15 minutes.” It oftentimes takes longer than that for me to decide if they are sex-worthy, and always takes longer than that to decide if they are relationship-worthy. Yup, to me relationships take more work than sex, so I prioritize accordingly. One you have to use your mind and emotional energies, the other you don’t. The path of least resistance, you know 😉
As I’ve indulged in a few ONS in my youth and have lived to tell about it, I’ve been able to tell if a person is good enough to have sex with within a few hours. I’ve even had a few not-quite-ONS hookups that went to 3rd base and did not end in sex and without any scars, emotional or physical. And I’ve even dated a guy and changed my mind and told him to stop *mid-stroke* without him reacting negatively. It’s all in the guydar-picking and the delivery of the stop.
Fusee says
@Evan #46: Thank you for your thoughful comments!
I should have mentioned that I definitely use the “moving his hand language” before any conversation happens. Much more natural and less awkward, I agree, but to my experience not enough to move the relationship to commitment (or to opting out), especially if you are on the “conservative” side like me, and would likely move his hand A LOT : )
With my current boyfriend for example, it was more frustrating for him to have his hand moved all the time than listening to me clarifying my needs. Which was to keep all sexual contact within a committed relationship that was going to be assessed long-term. He had never dated a purposeful woman before so clear communication helped a lot to progress in our relationship. Moving his hand made him feel much more rejected than simply talking, and realizing with great relief that we both wanted the same thing in the end.
My way of dealing with men has worked well for me, so I’m not worried about hurting my chances. I’m not looking to secure a commitment at any price. I’m looking to find myself in a committed relationship that has potential, so I’d rather not become committed at all than being committed to someone I’m very likely to leave later.
I’m actually secure enough to not worry about looking insecure. I just look like what I am: someone who knows why they are dating and how much they respect their body and their emotions. Respect is not fear and perceptive men can make the difference in person. However I’m aware that such boundaries weed most men out, therefore I’m not urging all women to follow my methods. Just sharing in case someone (man or woman) would find interesting to hear about another way of dealing with their pants early in a relationship…
My goal is NOT to secure a short-term committed relationship…
RW says
Well said Fusee, much better than I could have 🙂 Agree 100% with both posts, especially about NOT securing short term relationships. Evan, it really is not my intention to pick a fight but I didn’t say that men were “entitled” and I wasn’t talking about you at all when I mentioned tone. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I don’t see your point of view and your entitlement to it. I also see that it applies to the masses and the reality of today. Having said that, I hope you will consent that I have a right to disagree. My way doesn’t work for everyone but it works for me. I am not suggesting that other people use it but I am asking to be spared comments like: “I don’t put this holy value on sex like others seem to do. ” That was the comment that stood out the most but there were others.
runnergirl says
Hugely interesting thread and I appreciate the POVs of everybody who commented. My thinking is along the lines of Heather, Wendy, and Fusee and the others who express what seems to me common sense cautionary boundaries in meeting strangers. Since I’ve only recently started online dating, I’m not a good source of experience but after over 90 days (I know a drop in the bucket), I’ve only met two guys I was willing to even have a second date, let alone deal with first, second or third base as long as we are using HS jargon here. BTW, Evan I recently read the posts on the “Worst Online Dates’ and I was amazed. I would very much like to see the posts that weren’t published. Very helpful but amazed.
I’m am a bit perplexed as to why some folks are shocked that this post would lead to a discussion of “date rape”. Clearly some guys (maybe most, who knows) can stop when a woman says stop even when pants are off and someone is reaching for the condom. Also clearly, some guys don’t/won’t stop. Thus the term “date rape”. I think it’s important to recognize that some guys don’t/won’t stop. I haven’t been a rape victim but I’m very sensitive to the crime. I envy those ladies who can tell in 15 minutes. I’m not that clairvoyant. I’m going to have to know somebody more than 15 minutes and probably more than 9 hours. Sorry guys. It’ll take a bit more time before my knickers drop or anything for that matter. If is all I want is sex, I can do that any night. This has been a great thread but a bit scary. I wouldn’t want my 22 yro daughter to read this and think she can take her pants off and then simply say stop and someone she doesn’t know will simply comply. What if he doesn’t? Evan, have you discussed this with your gorgeous wife? I’m wondering how you will advise your beautiful young daughter, if you are blessed with a girl?
sarahrahrah! says
Thanks for a very candid and helpful article, EMK. For those of us who have been coupled for most of the past twenty or so years, this information and the opinions expressed in the comments are useful.
Nicole says
@Runnergirl, if your daughter is 22, unless you are very conservative and went to some really conservative religious college, she probably understands “hooking up” quite well. Hookup culture was alive and well when I was in college in the 90’s, and it is even more pervasive now.
And that means that you don’t have people going steady and then rounding the bases. It means that guys and girls who aren’t dating will meet at a party, and sometimes under the influence of alcohol (but for example, very few of my good college friends drank), then engage in some heavy foreplay that doesn’t end in sex.
I personally think that it MIGHT be a generational thing, in terms of people above a certain age assuming full or partial nudity leads to sex, or that it is impossible to safely let a man touch or see your boobs lest he molests you. Yeesh. I kind of assumed the writer, b/c of her age, didn’t know what else she could do while naked. Of course, I have no way of knowing how much people really towed the line regarding virtue back then. I always assumed a lot of people just lied about being sexually active. When I got to college and started hearing about “hooking up” I didn’t know what it meant when people explained that they didn’t have sex with the person but had been in bed with them. But yeah, I was fresh out of high school.
Date rape was occurring even to girls wearing poodle skirts who planned on being virgins until they were married. And Googling a few sources, the biggest culprit of unwanted sex (at least for college students) is alcohol, which blurs those lines between yes and no for both the man and the woman (although some of those encounters are very violent).
It’s funny how almost every thread devolves into this idea that mean are beasts just waiting to take advantage of poor, fragile, emotionally and physically vulnerable women. I’m kind of offended that so many women want to play this role (and yet want to demand every other right when it suits them).
Nicole says
Again, have no way of knowing b/c of my age but I picture lots of fear mongering being used against people in the past that any type of touching, petting, or nudity would lead to you being raped, or at least not being a good girl any more.
It seems to the be the tack taken by a lot of people who want to promote extreme chastity…I’ve heard people who have no clue “explain” what can happen if they touch, or what happens to people who do touch.
Ruby says
The date rape issue came up a while back on another thread, but I think it bears repeating, since I’m surprised that so many folks here are naive about it. Here’s a statistic from an article on date rape in the Washington University newsletter: “According to the U.S. Department of Justice’s Office of Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS), women aged 16-24 not only experience rape at a rate four times higher than the assault rate of all women, but 25 percent of these women have been victims of rape or attempted rape since turning 14 years old, around the onset of puberty.”
Here’s more:
“From National Studies Of College Women
* 84% of women who were raped knew their assailants.
* 57% of rapes occurred on a date.
* 25% of men surveyed believed that rape was acceptable if: the women asks the man out; if the man pays for the date, or the woman goes back to the man’s room after the date.
* 33% of males surveyed said they would commit rape if they definitely could escape detection.
* 84% of male students who had committed acts that clearly met the legal definition of rape said what they had done was definitely not rape.
* 75% of male and 55% of female students in an occurrence of date rape had been drinking or using drugs.
* Only a quarter to a third of women whose sexual assaults met the legal definition of rape considered themselves rape victims.
* Many women do not report or characterize their victimization as a crime for reasons such as embarrassment, because they do not want to define someone who assaulted them as a rapist, or because they do not know the legal definition of rape. Many women blame themselves.
* Nearly 5% of college women are victimized in any given year, meaning over 4 years one-fifth to one quarter of a cohort of women may be assaulted. Similar numbers experienced attempted rape.
* The majority of rapes occur in living quarters–60% in victim’s residence, 10 % in a fraternity, 31 % in other living quarters. Off campus victimizations also took place in bars, dance clubs and work settings.
* 50% of high school boys and 42% of girls said there were times it was acceptable for a male to hold a female down and physically force her to engage in intercourse.”
From all I’ve read, it’s the high school, college, and early-twenties women who need to be the most careful. Not exactly EMK’s target audience, but still worthy of note. Acknowledging potential dangers isn’t the same as saying that “All men are rapists,” or promoting “extreme chastity.”
As far as the OP is concerned, someone in their sixties, who was married for many years, and has dated very little, is probably going to be more conservative, and less knowledgeable about her options. She’s probably going to be less interested in engaging in casual sex. While it’s unlikely that she’s going to be in any high-risk situations, as i mentioned earlier, it’s not only about physical safety, it’s about emotional safety and comfort also. That just happens to vary from person to person.
Lucy says
I agree with what someone else said. It isn’t about when a man wants to have sex with you that determines whether he is good and decent. Okay that’s common sense but I’ve met lots of women who don’t see it the way I do. While I want to have sex when I am ready, I certainly won’t put up an arbitrary boundary as a test. I suspect that that type of game playing would be counter-productive and actually weed out some very good men. Sometimes it’s hard to tell the good from the bad. But the truly bad guys (who aren’t obviously crazy) will be manipulative enough to put you in a position you’d rather not be in. Trusting your instincts in order to make the right judgement call goes a long way. The higher self-esteem you have, the easier it is to do that.
Karmic Equation says
@RW #35
The way I interpret “sex is like eating” is that sex is AS NATURAL AS eating, and to women who are comfortable with their sexuality, just as necessary as eating. I agree with Paula that it’s not the holy grail that many on this board treat it. Sex is NATURAL, it’s beautiful, WHETHER OR NOT there is a relationship. Sex is just as necessary as eating because the human race would die out without it. I would say sex is more necessary than relationships because the human race can continue with just sex and no relationships.
@runnergirl50 … I envy those ladies who can tell in 15 minutes. I’m not that clairvoyant…If is all I want is sex, I can do that any night.
You don’t need to be clairvoyant, you just have to be good at reading people. And how do you “do sex any night” if you’re not able to size up a man’s character quickly?
@Nicole 52/53
Agreed 100%. Well said.
*******
If one hasn’t personally been date raped or know anyone who has been date raped or have never tried to stop a man from going all the way after the pants are off, one should STOP SPECULATING about whether or not a man can or cannot stop when a woman says no.
I *have* stopped men after third base; and the man I stopped *mid-stroke* was an excon. So yeah, you can stop any man, provided you are a good judge of character. Don’t date men whose CHARACTER is in doubt. A man may be relationship material (ala BTK, Green River Killer, Robert Yates, etc.) — but that doesn’t mean they have good character. A man may have a past (excon) but that doesn’t mean they have bad character.
I haven’t been date raped and am confident that I never will be because I’m not a vulnerable person. Date rapists target the vulnerable, people who are
-Too drunk
-Too low in self-esteem (many here confuse self-respect with self-esteem)
-Too sexually inexperienced/naive
-Too inexperienced at reading people
-Too situationally unaware
If you are any ONE of the above you may be vulnerable to date rape or bad relationships.
How you help combat date rape is to ADDRESS ALL of the above, not fear monger nor speculate about the probability of date rape when rounding the bases. That’s just the voice of inexperience talking. The POSSIBILITY is certainly there, but is it PROBABLE? It’s POSSIBLE that you can be struck by lightning, but is it PROBABLE? It’s POSSIBLE that you can win the lottery, but is that PROBABLE?
The chances of date rape–if you are NOT vulnerable and ARE a good judge of character–are slim to none, whether your pants are on or off.
If you feel that the probability is higher for you, I’m willing to bet you are vulnerable in one of the areas above.
Snooki says
you fuck excons? or you’re making shit up to defend an argument that’s falling apart?
Julia says
@Karmic I have been date raped and I certainly feel comfortable deciding when and where and what a man does to me. I’ve never felt out of control of my body EXCEPT when I was preyed on in college. That’s it. So I kind of wish these women would stop answering for women like me, who have been victims but also realize that most men are not out to hurt me.
Evan Marc Katz says
I think Julia speaks my truth the most. No one is suggesting that there’s no date rape, but rather that it’s far more prevalent for women in their 20s with men in their 20s, you have control of your choice of men and it’s not that hard to pick up on a hint of danger from a man, and that my advice on how to use foreplay prior to intercourse should not be remotely affected by your past.
For the final time, if you choose not to kiss a guy for five dates, ask him how he feels about sex while you’re eating your salad, or get agitated that he reached for your bra before you were ready, that’s your prerogative. But the more you live in fear, the less open you are to making a real organic connection with a man. No one said you should get drunk and go home with every guy. But I tend to advocate for being less wary over more wary. And yes, I will teach my daughter the same thing. She will be the kind of girl who loves and trusts men, if I have anything to do with it. The alternative is clearly worse.
KTR says
Re: good guy dar – just a few of my thoughts, maybe others can add?
Been thinking about this, and how I’ve developed it – must say its not something one is “born” with but I’m trusting and confident in my own judgement now.
Here’s an interaction I had last winter. On match.com, get a wink followed by a chat request from someone whose profile I’ve viewed, which I’m happy to accept. Profile looks great, names exchanged etc.
Him: “have you got a webcam”
Me: “no, sorry tend not to use it”
Him: “Oh, you should.”
I left the chat screen for a bit to do something.
Him: “????”
At this stage, I blocked him, obviously meaning no further conversation.
Oh @ Karmic Equation, love your posts – but that’s LESS than 15 minutes ha ha 😉
His profile stated – and I had no reason to believe otherwise – that he was a successful lawyer, good looking in his pictures etc etc. Pretty much the standard alpha male wet dream, my mother and friends and that ex of mine would be like “oh, wow” if he was anything like his profile. It was a slowish dating period, and I’d say his face was my “type”.
But I thought straight off, “not worth the risk”. Not saying he would be a rapist, of course, but he was coming across as wanting to push a boundary, not being aware that I (any woman) would be getting uncomfortable with his “tone”.
In the same period, I accepted contact from, and enjoyed dates with, a shortish guy who worked on oil rigs, an IT worker, and a NRA Indian guy with a strong accent.
That’s what I’d call my “good guy dar” at work. I don’t need to interrogate someone, I just register if – even subtly – they’re creating a certain dynamic in which I’m a bit off balance BEFORE any physical stuff or any prolonged 1-1 contact starts. In a dating context, I feel the good guys are generally eager to please and incredibly wary of offending, or even annoying me, and this guy seemed to lack that quality, so I avoided. No drama.
Wendy says
@Karmic Equation #56. “57% of rapes occur while on a date.” Curtis DG. Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape. The American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress (AAETS) http://www.aaets.org/arts/art13.htm.
Do you really think this many women have “bad pickers” as you like to say? Low self-esteem? Are in need of therapy to become “normal” human beings? NO! I think YOU are the one who is naive and inexperienced in this area, and perhaps YOU should stop speculating about the FACTS. You have a wicked case of “Not Me” syndrome that could get you killed one of these days.
AGAIN, I am NOT saying treat all men like potential rapists. Ruby #54 said it best: Acknowledging potential dangers isn’t the same as saying that “All men are rapists,” or promoting “extreme chastity.” But the worst thing you can do is think it’s really nt that bad, and that it could never happen to you. Wake up.
JB says
I’m just gonna throw this out there as I’ve read the whole thread (and many others) but it really pertains to this one. As I’m reading everyone’s comments, except for a few of us that offered. I have no idea of any posters age and yes it does matter because both men and women of different ages approach and think about this and many scenarios differently. I know I don’t think and do the same things at 51 as I did when I was 25 or even 35 for that matter. I’m just saying that older folks with a lot of experience may have a better grasp on all of it because just maybe…..well we’re older and have been through a lot more.
On the flipside I run across many divorced/widowed women who just came out of 23 yr. marriages who haven’t got a clue about anything dating/sexuality wise and I tell them simply “there’s no right or wrong, you have to figure out what’s right for you and what YOU are comfortable with” and if that matches the guy your dating that’s a good thing if not then find someone that it does match that’s all.
Maggie says
@Karmic Equation
I think you are FAR from an authority on the root causes and solutions to date rape and it’s pretty irresponsible of you to come to a public forum speculating about this topic like you were some sort of authority. You also seem intent on proving how you have this ability to tell who is a “good”vs. a “bad” guy within 15 minutes because you have so much experience yet have not been raped. Well, woop-dee-doo, big deal. While it may be truth that you have hooked up with the entire battalion, whether it has occurred to you or not is totally irrelevant. That would be like saying “I’ve had sex plenty of times without prophylactics and don’t have HIV, so the people that have it must have a low immune system” or “I’ve had sex plenty of times without contraceptives and have never gotten pregnant, so I don’t need contraceptives”. Or “I’ve driven my car many years many times and have never had an accident, so people don’t need to wear a seatbelt”. Just.Plain. Stupid. To those of you who want to engage in high-risk behavior, that is totally your prerogative. It has nothing to do with an “conservative agenda”. It has to do with facts, data, and statistics. Yes, the OP will probably not have this problem because of her date range and this happens more to people in their 20s. I actually have a dear friend (37 years) to which this happened with a guy she met at a bar (this was not a seedy bar, but a high-end bar restaurant, and the guy was a Big 5 consultant). She went home with him and she thought they were just going to make out, but the guy ended up forcing himself on her. Then she was confused about whether it was a rape or not because they were making out when it happened. So ladies, be safe. And never say never.
Ikram says
You can never say never! And there is nothing wrong with chastity even in these days. When I come across all this stuff it only solidifies my belief that sex should only come after marriage. Society has treated it so nonchalantly and you don’t have to be religious to understand the implications of such activities! I know i am a very small minority but so be it!
Karmic Equation says
@Wendy 59
57% of rapes are date rapes, not 57% of dates end up in date rapes. That’s a huge difference. If I interpreted the data the way you do, that means one of every two dates I’m on, I’ve been date raped. NOPE.
I never said there is no date rape. What I said was that you can reduce your risk by becoming as invulnerable to it as you can. It’s always possible due to sheer bad luck that even if you are as 100% bullet proof as you can make yourself against date rape, it might still happen. But I’m not going to go about being fearful of that. I can control every I can, and then sometimes life happens.
I hope that your posts regarding serial killers and stats on rape were recent research to prove me wrong in my posts. If they are the kind of info you read every day and keep in your head, well, sorry, you do need help to refocus your life on the positives and not negatives.
I’m always be aware of the negatives and know that date rape is possible. *You* have to acknowledge that while possible, date rape is not probable if you make sure you don’t suffer from the vulnerabilities I listed in my post.
As an aside, from the tenor of your posts, I feel you’d rather be right than to see the other person’s POV. If this is the way you carry on other relationships, especially with men, you’re never going to find the happiness you want with men. To be happy, you have to look for the positives of every situation. You DEAL with the negatives as they come along and then as soon as you resolve them, move on and never think of those negatives again, but always remember the lessons learned, so you don’t make the same mistakes again. If you only focus on the negatives, you’ll only see negatives and you’ll project negativity. Nobody wants to be with a negative, especially not men. What thoughts you have in your head, your mind will lead you towards. I hope that you can find it within yourself to think thoughts that lead you towards positivity, so that you can experience the happiness you wish to have.
Nicole says
@Maggie, your story sounds like your friend went home with a stranger. She wasn’t on a date with someone she had at least taken time to get to know. And you both sound silly enough to believe that the man’s money and status somehow made him lower risk. That part isn’t relevant. It was a stupid choice period.
No woman should take home or go home with a man she just met and that isn’t what anyone here is advocating. And people should not think that someone is somehow safer b/c he went to a certain school or has a certain job. That is utterly ridiculous but just buys into people’s notions of what kind of “people” commit crimes.
Going home with men you meet in bars is not the same as “can I disrobe with a guy I’ve seen a few times but not go all the way” and who is not some wild beast who will lose control at the sight of your breasts.
Karmic Equation says
@Maggie 62
It was awful what happened to your friend and I hope she recovers well from her trauma.
The fact that this happened with a big 5 consultant she met in a high-end bar doesn’t negate my post. I’m no authority, but you do realize she was INCREDIBLY vulnerable to date rape don’t you? She was
(1) drinking (she’s at a bar right?)
(2) situationally unaware (because he’s a big 5 consultant in a high-end bar patrons she automatically gave him a pass to being a good guy, bad idea)
(3) possibly sexually naive and/or sexually inexperienced (Was she thinking some sort of relationship would develop because she was going to to make out with him? That’s naivete borne of inexperience. What was she thinking? Or was her thinking impaired by alcohol?)
(4) I suspect had low self-esteem (You either have high self-esteem or low self-esteem to go home with a guy you just met. High self-esteem folks tend have to good working goodguy-dar and probably said no to the guy due to his red flags. Low self-esteemers need a man’s validation to assuage their insecurities and tend to overlook red flags.)
I’m not blaming her for the rape, when she said no, the guy should have stopped, if he was a good guy. Did she establish that he was a good guy before she went home with him? Probably not…You’ve already conceded that I’m one of the few people with this super-power.
She did have the control to not go home with him and she didn’t exercise that control.
She could have controlled her vulnerabilities so that she was less likely to become a target/victim. I’m sure if she had her vulnerabilities under control, she wouldn’t have looked past his red flags, because I’m sure he was flying them high. (Bet he suggested they go to his place, right? That’s a red flag. Believe it or not, if all you want to do is make out, making out in a car is better than going to their or your place. The confines of a car pretty much limit you to consensual acts).
As women, we need to be smart and make sure we are as invulnerable as we can be to bad things happening. I’ve even taken self-defense classes, have you? It’s our vulnerabilities that make us make poor choices. So address (generic) your vulnerabilities and you will automatically make better choices and help reduce your risk of date rape (in the extreme instances) or simply bad relationships (a more frequent occurence when women are vulnerable).
Still-Looking says
Date Rape – Yes it happens. Yes ALL people are at risk (men and women, homosexual and heterosexual). Some scenarios present a higher risk such as going home with a man you met in a bar than developing a relationship over 6 months with a man you met at church but the simple fact of the matter is all scenarios have a risk. Some teachers molest students, some fathers rape their children, some physicians assault their patients.
Common sense applies – don’t have a man pick you up at your house on a first date; paid dating sites are probably safer than free dating sites b/c the paid sites will have name, address, credit card number, etc.; print out the profile before a first date and give it to a friend; ask the guy for his last name before meeting and then during the date ask in a nice way to see his driver’s license – I certainly wouldn’t be offended if a woman did this; the list goes on and on but watch your alcohol intake, be assertive if you need to, and most important – listen to your gut instincts — if the guy seems creepy he probably is.
Pants Off – The development of the sexual component of dating does not occur in a vacuum. I don’t need a woman to read me a laundry list of what she will or will not do on first dates or second dates. I usually have a very good idea based off of her profile, our initial phone calls and texts, etc. To be blunt – if she sends me nude pics before our first date that is a pretty strong indicator that she might be interested in sex before date 10 😉 All interactions, her body language during a date, the topic of conversation, etc. let me know if I have a green light for physical contact. With me it’s simple — red light means stop, regardless of whether pants are on or off. I’ve had a number of women tell me their limits while still eating dinner and some have told me while we were undressing. Still others have let me know they don’t engage in any form of casual sex until they’ve been dating for several months. With me, and I assume the majority of men, boundaries will not be crossed once we know what they are.
RW says
@karmic
“sex is as natural as eating”.
Now that makes a bit more sense than the analogy and example provided earlier. I also understand the point you are trying to make. Sex is natural and beautiful. Agreed. I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. But again, let’s be clear that it is a choice you make for your pleasure versus a need. If you were having sex as a means of reproduction and the point in question was the survival of the human race only ( without any societal considerations), I would agree that sex is more important than relationships. But we are comparing eating and having sex for pleasure. I’m not uncomfortable with my sexuality. I don’t think sex is holy. I just attach some emotional importance to it. I tend to bond emotionally with those I sleep with and so to save myself from heartache I tend to wait until a reasonable hope of a long term relationship has been established. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy sex. I just can’t separate the emotional from the physical. As someone suggested, it might be an age thing. As I get older, my opinion might change. Having said that, I try not to make remarks like “personally I don’t just hop into the sack with anyone off the street like some people here.”. That would be somewhat insulting to you, don’t you agree? Because I’m sure that you and other similar minded women put thought into who you sleep with, just to a different degree than me. It works for you. Similarly, suggesting that I or others who are more careful are not comfortable with our sexualities and treat sex as unnatural or holy is both untrue and insulting.
RW says
Funny, I agreed with all of karmic’s last post as well as Nicole’s even though everything they said earlier struck the wrong chord. I guess we are all saying the same thing. Respect yourself as a woman and have sex when you are comfortable with it. Be smart about who you go home with. Take as long as you need to judge whether a man is “good”, be it 15 minutes or 3 months. In either case, if the guy cares about you and you keep him interested, he will stick around. If you drop your pants in 15 minutes, you risk being labelled easy and if you wait 3 months, you might be called a prude. As long as you are okay with the consequences of your behaviour, do what feels safe and comfortable.
Ruby says
Karmic Equation
I’d have to say that you *think* you know if someone is a good person within 15 minutes of meeting them. There’s no way you could actually know that so quickly. If it only takes 15 minutes to know this, then perhaps Maggie’s friend would have been safer with the guy she’d just met.
“57% of rapes are date rapes, not 57% of dates end up in date rapes. That’s a huge difference. If I interpreted the data the way you do, that means one of every two dates I’m on, I’ve been date raped. NOPE.”
The point is that 57% of the women who are raped on dates are aquainted their attackers, so yeah, they thought they knew them also. The longer you take to get to know someone, the better, and even then, you still cannot guarantee how they will ultimately treat you.
Wendy says
Karmic’s inflated sense of invincibility make her just as vulnerable as any of the rest of us. Just as there is no one “type” of man who rapes, there is no one “type” of woman who is more likely to get raped; strong, beautiful, intelligent, confident women show up in the statistics, too. Believing it won’t happen to you is the biggest mistake you can make.
Karmic Equation says
@RW 68
Great summary. That is it in a nutshell 🙂
@Ruby 69
I suppose you could say I read “tells” that identify a good guy (or bad guy) the same way a poker player can read another player’s tells for whether they have a good hand (or bad hand). But you have to play a lot of poker to read the tells. If you only play with the same group of players or only play poker once in a blue moon, you cannot possibly identify the tells of new players consistently or well.
I’ve interacted with boys/men all my life (conversational interactions, people, don’t roll your eyes at me! LOL) — because I’m such a tomboy. I’d rather watch sports or participate in sports than go shopping, etc., so I get to see men in their “natural habitat” more frequently than other women. (I just made this connection, btw). So I get to just see a lot of men in non-date situations which allow me to apply that knowledge/tells in potential or actual date situations. So I do “know” within 15 minutes. It’s all filed in the subconscious.
As to the 57%…Let’s put that in context…If we put 100 women in a room and let’s say 25% have been raped – then 25 women are rape victims. Of those 25 rape victims 57% were raped on a date, which is 14 women. So 14/100 (14%) of women are date rape victims. 55% of the women who were date raped were drinking. So that’s 8 (rounded up) women who were raped while on alcohol or drugs while on a date, meaning that 6 women were raped while not drinking.
This means that if you don’t drink while on a date, you have an 6% chance of being raped. 6% is a far cry from 57%. This is how I interpret that data. Am I wrong?
Evan Marc Katz says
@Karmic Equation – You’re interpreting it right, but you haven’t gone far enough. It’s not a 6% chance of being raped on a given date. It’s much, much lower than that. Because the vast majority of men are not rapists. In fact, I’d suggest that there are a tiny percentage of men who are serially aggressive towards women – and those men tarnish the reputation of the 99.8% innocent men out there.
God, have I mentioned how much I HATE the fact that this post has become about rape instead of about foreplay? No one ever said you shouldn’t be aware or cautious. But it’s disempowering to live in constant fear. I can only sympathize with any woman who has been so damaged by a sexual assault that she can never relax and enjoy hooking up with a new man. Sincerely.
Oh, and I just read this quote from Hanna Rosin’s Boys on the Side article: “One of the great crime stories of the past 20 years, meanwhile, is the dramatic decline of rape and sexual assault. Between 1993 and 2008, the rate of those crimes against females dropped by 70 percent nationally” Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen way too often, but if you’re going to use statistics to reinforce why you should always have your guard up, I’m going to use statistics to illustrate that your fears, while fair, are overstated.
Draga says
I usually learn a lot about men from Evan’s posts, until I read this one. This time I learned a lot about other people’s experiences being totally different than my own.
The advice Evan gave the OP is common sense to me, as I always do it that way.
I don’t have a particular number of dates, never had, but I guess it ranged from 7 months with my first boyfriend (we were both 20 at the time) till about a little under two months with the present one (we were 31 at the time, 33 at the moment). Although I do understand some girls fears, I absolutely never ever had an unpleasant experience with a guy, nobody ever accused me of teasing, and they all seemed to enjoy my company and our progression over time. However, I should point out that all the guys I ever dated were from social circles overlapping with mine, so they were not strangers and I could usually find out about their dating etiquette well in advance. (That would be one of the advances living in a small European country.) Before somebody asks about cultural differences/upbringing/religion etc., I will emphasize that all the guys I ever dated were atheists as I am and quit liberal and open-minded, again as I am.
I’m sorry if this will offend anyone, but it never occurred to me that the guy I’m cuddling with naked could rape me when I tell him that I want to stop, so that he can take me home to sleep. Ever! And I asked my boyfriend about this thing, just in case; he had such a bewildered expression as if he didn’t even understand what I meant.
runnergirl says
Evan, I’m a new comer to this site and a total neophyte with regards to online dating. I cannot believe that you’d post this current article and then be surprised that the comments included date rape. Since you are an accomplished dating coach, you must be familiar with the stats [email protected] posted? Thank you Ruby for doing the research and posting.
Yep Karmic, you go girl. Since you can figure it out in 15 mins, go with it. Back in the day, I thought I could too. Oopps. Not so much now. Whatever is working for you now…cool. Go girl. Sex is easy even for an old timer like me. A relationship based on trust, honesty, care, and respect is another matter.
I don’t think I’m inclined to think I have to disrobe in order to keep a stranger interested. Apparently, the stranger can find many women who are willing to disrobe. If the guy isn’t interested in me with my clothes on, I’m not willing to take my clothes off. Duh?
Joe says
@ Evan: out of curiosity, are you and your (Catholic, IIRC?) wife planning on raising your kids Jewish? Obviously none of my business, and no real reason for you to answer except that you brought it up in #36.
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, we are, Joe.
Diana says
I know that things on the Internet are not always as they seem, but another hugely popular website really set the place on fire when it asked if there were any rapists viewing and would they share their stories of why they raped, etc. The response was deafening, and while sickening, a real eye opener. The thing is, there are thousands of rapes that go unreported for a variety of reasons, so this idea that rapes have decreased cannot truly be substantiated, IMHO.
To Fusee, #48, writing about how your boyfriend felt much more rejected when you kept moving his hand vs. letting him know your boundary is a good example of how clear, verbal communication is important. This way, he knew it wasn’t about him.
Women (and men) have to follow their own hearts and not concern themselves with what’s considered the norm or average. It used to tickle me when my widowed, attractive mother of 57 went out on date after date after date and while I’m not sure how it happened, the men learned that she wasn’t the type to sleep with them before marriage. It didn’t matter how much money they had, the Porsche they drove, etc. Some of the men, being men of course, really tried. 😉 She didn’t allow herself to fool around and have herself undressed, saying no to sex, etc. She knew what felt right to her and that in time, she would find a good man who understood and was willing to walk the same path as her and share in the goal of marriage. And that’s exactly what happened. They became good friends first, and they have been married 15 years and he has treated her far more lovingly and kinder than my father ever did. She felt confident, strong, and didn’t allow her fears or insecurities to take control.
If I were dating today, I wouldn’t follow her footsteps exactly, but I do know that I wouldn’t be rounding third bases unless I intended to go for a home run. 🙂
Evan Marc Katz says
Diana, I read the the rape thread and I agree, it’s sickening. However, your attempt to refute the massively decreasing rape statistics displays a highly selective bias. While thousands of rapes undoubtedly go unreported, the fact that rape is down 70% is indicative of a drop in rape itself, not in the reporting of rape. Unless you can think of a particularly compelling reason that there would be a massive drop in the reporting of rape. So, in other words, rape is still a problem, but it’s dropped dramatically. And the reporting of rape has probably not changed at all.
Thanks again for continuing this sordid topic, though. I appreciate it.
Diana says
Evan, I appreciate your including my post. In the article that you refer to, I don’t readily see anything that supports the decline statement that’s included. I am sorry, if I missed this. When I view Wikipedia re: rape statistics, it is challenging to know what to believe. There are several reporting agencies, and there appears to be variations in how the information is collected, interpreted and recorded.
in general, I don’t put too much stock in statistical reporting. Statistics are known to be inherently flawed and skewed. All I know is that when a subject goes seriously unreported and/or falsely reported, and different organizations apply varying methods in their reporting, then statistics cannot be too heavily relied upon.
Selena says
@ Diana # 78
“…but I do know that I wouldn’t be rounding third bases unless I intended to go for a home run. ”
LOL! Prior to reading this thread I thought most adults felt the same. 🙂
Diana says
And for anyone who may wonder, “Well how do you know it goes seriously unreported and/or falsely reported, if you do not rely on statistics?” I don’t know from a statistical standpoint. Sorry for the double post, if you decide to include them.
nathan says
This post and these comments represent the split personality so many of us seem to have when it comes to sexuality and sexual expression. On the one hand, there are those who seem totally surprised that rape and assault experiences would appear in a discussion like this. If you haven’t experienced sexual assault or rape, you probably aren’t aware of all the ways in which such an experience recolors everything. It can take years, decades even, to recover a fully open attitude towards intimacy, one without the maddening fear, paralysis, and confusion that comes post assault/rape. I can say this as a survivor myself – yes, men experience it too, and rarely report it – and also as a man who has dated multiple women who were survivors themselves. There is a fair amount of research suggesting that our very brain chemistry is altered by the trauma experienced during assault/rape, sometimes forever. So it’s not merely a doom and gloom thing going on here with the women bringing up rape statistics and concerns about rape.
On the other hand, I feel that there is something of an underlying sex shame and/or heavy handed conservatism behind some of the rebuttal comments towards Evan’s original post. Particularly, an angst towards the clear sense of joy Evan demonstrates towards foreplay – a joy I am totally on board with. I get the sense that a few here associate any sexual activity outside of a long term committed relationship as something dirty, shameful, and sordid. But beyond that, Julia’s point that you can experience the awfulness of rape, and still learn to recognize that most people aren’t out to abuse you is pretty vital. Knowing the gory details about all the abuse that does occur in the world can lead to excessive risk aversion, and an attitude that reflects that. After dating a woman for three and half years who worked in a woman’s shelter, I was hyper aware of all the ways in which men can “cross the line.” I had heard too many negative stories. and had no one to process them with, and balance them out with healthy, respectful stories about sexual intimacy. It took all of my 20s and into my early 30s to both move beyond the sexual assault I experienced, and also become less afraid of making mistakes, and become more joyful about sexual expression. I still struggle with some of that old baggage at times, and seeing the somewhat polarized attitudes here reminds me that I’m not alone.
Selena says
@ Nathan
Thank you for sharing your unfortunate experience. Sexual assualt happens to men too, but because they are even less likely to report it than women, the statistics of occurance are unknown. Having male friends who’ve had this experience…the only thing I want to add is that it didn’t happen to them in a ‘romantic’ setting- such as a date. No “playing the bases” – which I agree with other commenters, can be dangerous for women with men they don’t know very well.
What stood out to me in your comment ( #82) was also this:
” I get the sense that a few here associate any sexual activity outside of a long term committed relationship as something dirty, shameful, and sordid.”
My own impression is that there are a number of people who’ve commented that think sex is narrowly defined as intercourse – penis in vagina – and there are some that think oral sex “doesn’t count”, or that “just the tip” (?) doesn’t count. Why doesn’t it???? Seriously. What is the point of these …um…’boundaries’?
Intercourse is dirty, shameful, and sordid, but going down on your or the other person’s genitals ” doesn’t count”??? Yeah? How’s come? No pun intended though it’s clearly there folks.
‘Rounding the bases’ week by week, is something I believe most, if not all of us have done as a part of gaining sexual experience – growing up into adulthood. After that? What is the point? Because it seems to me, if you have genital contact with another person…you ARE having sex. So what is behind your hangup as defining it as such?
Fusee says
@Selena #83: “Because it seems to me, if you have genital contact with another person…you ARE having sex.”
I completely agree with you (see my comment @11).
@nathan #82: than you for your courage in sharing your experience. I’m not sure who you are refering too with the comment on “associate any sexual activity outside of a long term committed relationship as something dirty, shameful, and sordid.” but I will clarify that while I indeed desire to keep sexual contact within the boundaries of a committed relationship, I also do not see anything dirty or shameful in not having these preferences. To each their own, I really respect people’s different limits or absence of limits. My own boundaries are a reflection of my values and self-care, and are not about fear or judgement.
@Evan #78: “Unless you can think of a particularly compelling reason that there would be a massive drop in the reporting of rape.”
Although I respect statistics and do not seek to impose my perceptions as “truth”, I can actually think of a reason for explaining a drop in the reporting of rapes (without arguing against the drop in rape rate itself, which by the way is good news).
For example a shift in the KINDS of rape that are committed can influence the number of REPORTED rapes because I strongly believe that undesired sexual acts committed during intimate encounters will be reported at a dramatically lower rate than other cases (even if committed by acquaintances). Those rapes will be less likely to be reported because most victims do not even realize that a rape actually occured given the intimate context surrounding the criminal act, or because of a perception of personal responsability to have put themselves in the situation. Or simply because of conflicting loving feelings towards the agressor… Therefore there can be a drop in rapes committed in non-intimate situations (and I would believe that and find it good news) and yet an increase of undesired sexual acts committed between the blurred lines of drunk dating, unclear body language, and entitlement/selfishness triggered when in a high state of sexual arousal.
I sure do not believe that every guy is a potential rapist. Some guys do have self-control. This is actually the last thing on my mind while connecting to a new person. My powerful good guy-dar functions at a very unconscious level. But I certainly believe that good/decent men end up committing rape without having ever have imagined themselves committing something so despicable. Why? Because of the increase of random hook-ups and lack of clear, timely, and sober communication.
My moral of the story: if you are a man or a woman with less strict limits, you have less risk of ending up in a situation that you do not want. You might also recover faster it the unfortunate happens. For folks with stricter limits, please communicate with clarity while hooking up or building a new relationship. It’s not about fear or insecurity. It’s about personal power and mutual respect. It’s about being fair to your partner. It’s well worth some awkwardness. The price to pay for the unlikely event of a undesired sexual act is just too high.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Fusee – Even if I agree with your take on the myriad reasons that various kinds of sexual assault goes unreported, it doesn’t change my point:
Those reasons have ALWAYS existed.
So when we hear that there’s a 70% drop in rape, the most likely conclusion (drumroll, please), is that there was a 70% drop in rape.
You and Ruby are working hard to explain why those very heartening numbers are false (why, I don’t know), but you have absolutely NO evidence of it.
If there are various reasons that women aren’t reporting rape in 2012, those same reasons existed back in ’92 as well.
RW says
@EMK: just read the article. Saddened me a lot.
But you were talking about rape statistics. I don’t have much to say about that because I haven’t done the research. I’m heartened if the rate has dropped by 70%. But I also read what Fusee had to say and I interpreted her comment differently. Maybe the same acts that happened in ’92 are happening now. It’s just that today’s woman doesn’t know it’s rape. I’m not saying this is always the case, just offering an alternative possibility because you did ask for a compelling reason. I am willing to believe the statistic. I am not trying to disprove it. I do, however, have a hard time believing that men suddenly have more self control and so rapes have reduced. Not trying to vilify men either. Just saying that something has changed but not just rapist desires, not to that degree. It is probably in equal part what a woman will accept for herself. Drinking has become more common and accepted. Random sex has become more common. All these factors contribute to the lowered statistic. It’s lower, yes but it’s not something that can just be taken at face value without context and further research.
@Nathan
Let me start by saying that I respect your level headed comments and opinions in general. That you can keep a cool head in heated situations is awesome. I am very sorry about your experience. Re: heavy handed conservatism or angst, it is not exactly that. It is simply self-preservation. I reread all the comments and no one advocates “no sex”. All we disagree on is the timeline. Re: sex outside a relationship, it is not dirty or shameful. It is just not for me because I think it causes more problems than it solves (again, for me personally).
Ruby says
EMK #85
Not really sure why you are calling me out here. I posted current statistics prior to the numbers you cited. Since you mention it, however, now we have DNA testing, rape kits, better understanding that rape is a crime. But I still think there is a gray area for many people as far as acquaintance rape (the majority of rapes) is concerned. And rape is still an under-reported crime.
In any case, the 70% figure you cited pertains to women under the age of 24. For older women, the decline in reported rapes is about half that number, making the overall rate about 53%. That’s good progress, but if one in six US women have experienced an attempted or completed rape, that is still a very high number of women.
From an a 2007 LA Times article:
“The most likely explanation involves impressive generational developments. In 1970, women made up one-third of all college students (versus 57% today), earned about one-fourth of all young-adult income (versus nearly half today) and made up small fractions of doctors and lawyers (versus majorities of new entrants into these fields now). Women’s rapidly rising status and economic independence in the larger society fostered new attitudes and laws that rejected violence against women.
That younger people growing up in this environment of greater gender equality should show the biggest decreases in rape, while older generations lag behind, is consistent with this explanation. The youngest teenagers (presumably those raised with the most modern attitudes) show the biggest declines of all. Over the last 30 years, rape arrest rates have fallen by 80% among Californians under age 15, much larger than the 25% drop among residents age 40 and older.
Ultimately, however, sexual violence remains a serious danger. That is the best reason for rigorously scrutinizing its real patterns and trends (rather than taking tiresome potshots at “young people” and “popular culture”) to learn how to further reduce it.”
Karmic Equation says
I think something’s being missed here. While this board has been focused on date-rape (which I believe drops to “SLIM TO NONE” if you are not vulnerable (see post #56)) — the posters who are hyping date rape, are missing the fact that you are MORE VULNERABLE TO STRANGER RAPE than date rape (Stranger Rape = 11% vs 8% date rape while drinking vs. 6% date rape while not drinking – see breakdown in #71).
So if everyone here is sensitive to rape, you should NOT leave your house because you are vulnerable to stranger rape 11% of the time that you leave your house, which is 3-5% more likely than being date raped. The likelihood of being stranger raped is EVEN HIGHER if you apply it to everyday life. How many errands do you run a week? 10-20? How many dates do you go on a week 2-3? So you multiply your 11% chance of stranger rape by 10-20x because that’s how often you are out there being vulnerable to stranger rape.
Please, yes, date rape is real, but the reality is that you are more vulnerable to being raped by a stranger than someone you’re dating, by a magnitude of 10 to 20x…
Snooki says
thats 100% untrue and anyone can verify this by looking at law enforcement data.
you are incredibly misinformed and painfully naive.
David T says
Where does this 70% decline a couple of people mentioned come from? When I hear a claim of most anything changing that much, my BS warning goes off and I look for source data.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/ucrdata/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm (you will have to use the tool at this URL to generate the table of data yourself.)
The U.S. DOJ reports a significant drop in forcible rape rates (incidents/100,000) between the peak in 1992 and 2010 (most recent data available there) but it is nowhere near 70%. More like 35%. Evan, you said something about 2012 data. That cannot be treated as credible seeing as the year is not over and these things take time to compile if done with care.
So yes it has dropped, but not nearly as much as is claimed. I am highly skeptical of whatever other statistics, interpretation of statistics or conclusions came from the source that claimed a 70% drop. The author was either careless or flat out deceptive.
Liz says
When I said “it doesn’t count,” I wasn’t being completely serious. Of course it is sexual in nature–and if your preference is not to indulge in that, then that is your preference. For me, as twisted as it sounds, I can enjoy foreplay, completely nude, including him going down on me without bonding to him. However, the minute I reciprocate, things get dicey. Thus, those are my arbitrary boundaries.
nathan says
Fusee “I will clarify that while I indeed desire to keep sexual contact within the boundaries of a committed relationship, I also do not see anything dirty or shameful in not having these preferences.” This is fair. I don’t think anyone can argue much with this line of thinking, even if they have a different approach. Unless “sexual contact” means no kissing, making out, etc. That’s where I tend to think shame based thinking is dominating. Few men are going to stick around if there is little or no intimate touching for months on end. But I totally respect not wanting genital contact without a commitment of some kind first.
Evan, while it seems to be true that there’s been a major drop in rape overall in the U.S. – our numbers are still at least 10 times higher than those in the UK and many other post-industrial nations. The 70% figure appears high to me, though. During the year with the largest number of documented cases, 1995, a little over 109,000 rapes were reported. In 2010, there were approximated 85,000 reported cases. That’s a little over a 28% decline. Furthermore, there are many problems with the long standing, official FBI definition of rape. The FBI finally changed their definition this year after 8 decades. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/us/definition-of-rape-is-shifting-rapidly.html The statistics only focused on women, and only on forced vaginal penetration, which leaves a hell of a lot out. Point being, I don’t think there’s a lot of clarity around how much of a drop has happened, or if that drop only applies to “violent” – (i.e. with physical force) cases of rape.
As Selena pointed out, there’s a disconnect for some folks around boundaries where intercourse is seen as wildly different, whereas anything else is fair game. The same disconnect is present in addressing issues of rape and assault. For too many of us, the image of rape and sexual assault is solely one of heavy force and violence, when the reality is much more complex. And the lack of complex understanding roles into the overall sense of sexuality, which is one of the main reasons why there is so much struggle around these boundary points. Intercourse is treated as a final destination, and some kind of vital confirmation, when it really is only one destination, or one point along the journey.
I don’t want anyone to live in fear. There are ways to overcome past abuse and be empowered – and plenty of people do so. In addition, self control does play an important role in the average dating situation, and shouldn’t be dismissed. At the same time, given the prevalence of rape and assault in the US – even if the numbers are reduced from a few decades ago – it’s really understandable that women in particular have some concerns. Especially if they’ve been harmed in the past.
nathan says
Sorry for the double post, but Karmic – your comments on this thread in general have been questionable. But you are flat out wrong about the stranger rape comments. Two thirds of rapes and assaults occur with someone who is either an intimate (partner, friend, family member) or an acquaintance. Someone known to the victim. Stranger rape is the stereotype: it happens, but at far less of a rate. It’s the kind of thing that makes for juicy media stories and TV shows, but it’s not the majority by a long shot. And the reinforcing of that image as the biggest danger is one of the major reasons why it’s so difficult for those of us who experience something else to step forward and report it.
Ruby says
Karmic Equation #88
“…are missing the fact that you are MORE VULNERABLE TO STRANGER RAPE than date rape…”
You need to better educate yourself on this subject. Check out RAINN.org, for more info. It’s well-known that most rape victims know their assailants:
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.
He’s not Hiding in the Bushes
More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occurred within 1 mile of their home or at their home.
4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.
54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years. Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 3% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.
Stats are taken from the US Dept. of Justice.
Evan Marc Katz says
I am hereby shutting down the rape discussion. It’s sad. It’s boring. It’s off-topic. And it’s my blog. And if you want to debate the 70% drop in rape statistic, please take it up with Hanna Rosin, author of “The End of Men” and the founder of Slate’s XX site. Clearly, she’s biased against women and blase about rape as well.
Selena says
@ Nathan #91
“Few men are going to stick around if there is little or no intimate touching for months on end. But I totally respect not wanting genital contact without a commitment of some kind first.”
Yep. Huge difference between months on end, a commitment of some kind, and date 2-4. That’s what I think has peeved some of the commenters and led to the now closed discussion. Why should anyone have genital contact (any kind) with someone they’ve only known a handful or so hours in order to keep them interested? They are either interested, or they are not interested. Or they are just interested in getting genital contact from relative strangers.
hespeler says
I’m a male in his upper 30’s who has done a lot of online dating (dating women who are mostly in their 30’s). Online dating pretty much translates to a lot of casual dating and few relationships and I can say my experience has been very similar to EMK’s. In dating scenarios I have “fooled around” with a lot of women and only really have sex with a woman when it seems like dating is transitioning into a relationship. I actually prefer it this way because it usually takes me some time to get to know a complete stranger.
I also agree with EMK that if I like the girl, foreplay is a great way of making me want to come back for more. Unless you are pre-disposed to such behavior, there is no excuse for a lack of self-control when dealing with a mature person.
This is good and bad. I recently dated a girl on the rebound with whom I had amazing chemistry. We had some amazing foreplay sessions but just as things were really taking off, she decided to go back to her ex. It’s been tough and I still fantasize about her, even to the point of not being able to concentrate on another girl until I can get it out of my head. But I know she didn’t do it to be cruel or with any mal-intent. It’s just a part of casual dating that has to be accepted.
I think there are plenty of healthy males out there that are used to cooling their jets in the dating world. It’s just something a lot of us expect when dating outside of a relationship.
Karmic Equation says
@Selena 95
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting genital contact within a few hours to keep anyone interested. That’s absolutely the WRONG way to keep anyone interested. You should only do this if you DON’T care to have a relationship with whoever you’re doing this with. If you DO want a relationship then be physical at whatever pace makes you comfortable.
What I was espousing was that if (generic) you have good guydar, you should usually be able tell if a guy is a good guy within 15 minutes. Not that you go home with someone withing 15 minutes. My POV annoyed a lot of folks who believe that it takes longer to tell if a guy is a good guy or not. Maybe I should have said you can usually weed out jerks within 15 minutes 🙂 Perhaps that would have gotten better press. KTR did it in less than 15, and online, at that! It can be done. Again, this weeding is what takes 15 minutes, not the going home part.
The point I was trying to make before the discussion got derailed, was that it’s the CHARACTER of the man that matters most in the rounding of bases not actually how many dates. If the man is a good man, he’ll be ok stopping on a dime on date 1. If he’s a bad man, he will not be ok with stopping whether on dates 1 or 20 (but he’ll probably not be around for 20…which is good).
It behooves a woman to establish that the man is a good man before rounding any bases. The contentiousness began when I said I could do that on 1 note and many insisted that 3 or more notes were necessary (This reference may be before your time, it’s referring to the game show Name That Tune!).
Selena says
@Karmic #97
Within 15 min. I can sometimes recognize whether or not I’m attracted to someone. That’s about as far as my “dar” goes in that time frame. I suspect their are more women like me, than like you.
As far as the topic of this discussion goes…the purpose of foreplay is to create and increase sexual arousal. If I’m not ready to have sex with a new man, I’m not going to be ready to be sexually aroused by him either. That being the case, why would I deliberately sexually arouse a man I didn’t want sex with?
The premise is foreplay will keep a man interested in early dating (2-4?). How much time has a woman spent with a man on those dates? A handful or so of hours? How well does she really know him, or thinks she knows him in that amount of time? Apparently some people find sexual frustration exciting. I don’t. I find it an unpleasant feeling. How is woman to know how the man she is out with going to feel when she arouses him and then slams on the brakes? Maybe he’s cool with sexual frustration. But maybe he isn’t, so much. Some men can get nasty when they are sexually frustrated. Others just become more persistant. I don’t see foreplay as interest-keeping working very well if the guy walks away thinking the woman is a cock tease. And I don’t think a woman is going to remain interested in a man she had to end up fending off. More likely she will be upset and never want to see him again.
Karmic, I don’t think even you can predict how a man will handle sexual frustration until you see how he handles it.
I believe people should have sex – any kind – whenever it is they feel comfortable. Simple. I also believe using foreplay as a tool when one doesn’t want sex is risky business with men a woman doesn’t know very well. To borrow from another blogger, “If you don’t want to go there, Don’t. Go. There.”
This is very clear to me. And part of self-control is not putting oneself in sexually murky situations.
David T says
@Selena The way foreplay is used in this thread, it means anything done before sex, whether it leads to sex or not.
Kissing is part of foreplay. A warm hug can be part of foreplay. A gentle touch to the arm, face or neck are part of foreplay. Clever verbal flirtation is part of foreplay. ALL of these are sexually arousing. These activities are fun in themselves even when they don’t lead to sex, and fun is part of what keeps someone interested.
Are you saying you won’t do any of these things with anyone, even your partner unless sex is the outcome, because otherwise it will be ‘frustrating’? I doubt that is what you meant, so where do you draw your line? What is your definition of foreplay ’cause your post is saying something odd as I understand it.
Fiona says
I pretty much agree with Selena. I don’t think that foreplay is a good idea unless you are absolutely sure that you will want to have sex at some point in the very near future. Otherwise what good can it possibly do?
Selena says
@David T.
Foreplay as it is used in the discussion, By Evan, is “rounding the bases”. Surely you are aware kissing would be first base. Fondling a woman’s breasts – 2nd. base. Fondling genitals, either or both parties – 3rd. base.
I don’t consider a warm hug, or gentle casual touch, or verbal flirtation to be foreplay. The intention of such is not to sexually arouse, though that may happen to someone easily excitable. 🙂 And I very much agree that doing these things in early dating IS the way to show affection and interest. In fact, a much better way than fondling breasts or genitals with someone one doesn’t feel comfortable having sex with yet.
I also like kissing. To me, it is how I gauge my level of sexual attraction to that person. If the kissingis good, there is something to go on. If the kissing feels icky, then it’s a clear sign I’m not sufficiently attracted to that person. I don’t consider kissing on par with genital contact. That’s why it’s considered FIRST base and genital contact is considered THIRD, the base shy of a home run.
Hope that clears it up for you. 😉
Karmic Equation says
@Selena
Foreplay done right just makes the next time something to look forward to, and is something fun!
I’ve stopped at intense foreplay when no condom was available. I always made this the guys job to provide it. While they all tried to convince me it would be ok without one, they never succeeded and, while a little put out, they knew they had no one to blame but themselves for being unprepared.
Again, it’s all in the guy’s character. I have yet to meet a man that turned violent or refused to see me again for stopping at foreplay. I would even say the stopping is a very sexy part of the guy-girl dynamic, provided you have good rapport and the guy is a GOOD guy. Sure, good guys can be frustrated, but how they handle it tells you a lot about them. Slight pressure and “convincing” (or begging!–this is a huge turn on) is ok. Calling you names is not ok.
I’ve yet to meet a bad guy myself. Rule of thumb is if you don’t KNOW if the guy is a good guy, then DON’T do anything stronger than passionate kisses, imo, until you DO know.
Selena says
@#102
“Slight pressure and “convincing” (or begging!—this is a huge turn on) is ok.”
Ugh. Begging is not a huge turn on to me – It is a HUGE TURN OFF.
Different strokes for different folks apparently.
Julia says
Foreplay can also be used to build sexual desire, which in infinitely more sexy than easy sex. I have used foreplay for weeks and both of us were quite satisfied doing it.
Fusee says
fore ·play [fawr-pley, fohr-] noun: sexual stimulation, usually as a prelude to sexual intercourse.
Like for “sex”, we can give any definition we want to “foreplay”. It’s a free country. To me, technically, it starts at open-mouth kissing because that’s what starts to arouse me sexually, but practically this is when we go to second base and down.
Because I refrain from sex (and for me “sex” means any kind of genital stimulation, mutual or not) outside of a committed-relationship-that-is-going-to-be-explored-long-term-with-a-possibility-of-maybe-just-maybe-progressing-towards-marriage, I postpone open-mouth kissing for as long as humanely possible, and completely avoid other bases before commitment and assessment of long-term compatibility have been established.
Once again: I’m not coming from a place of fear or judgement. These definitions and boundaries work just fine for me and I’m not preachin’.To each their own. But in case you wonder, yes, there are men who are fine with these limits, as long as they understand what they are and the reason they are in place. The hardest is to communicate them in the most conducive way WHILE focusing on making him FEEL good date after date in other – non-sexual – ways. After that, it’s smooth sailing when he is serious-minded and plan 10-hour dates because he can’t get enough of you!
But definitions and boundaries – and the principles behind them – are going to inform our decisions to engage or not engage in certain activities. Well, if we are wise at least. For me, since I do not want sex before reaching a certain level of agreement on the relationship status and potential, I prefer to avoid finding myself highly sexually aroused. Just not comfortable! Therefore I do not go on dates where much intimacy is possible until the relationship develops further.
I’m not making him “wait”, I’m actively using the time to find out about potential deal-breakers and to playfully build emotional connection while he is doing just the same. Keeping my p*ussy dry helps keeping a focused mind.
It does not need to take months to progress physically. It all depends on how the emotional connection develops and – how ironic – it’s very much up to him and his emotional availability! With my current boyfriend it took us six weeks because circumstances encouraged us to be very effective on our 12 first dates. Could have taken a bit longer, but I would not have given much more than two months to see some emotional connection before opting out. So not the end of the world, and the awesome kisses and other innocent delights tied us over. The good news is, by then I did not have to “believe” he was a “good” guy. I KNEW that he was much more.
Karmic Equation says
@Selena
Depends on the delivery of the begging. Begging from betas, not hot. Begging from alphas…wow! They know how to do it right. Is there such a thing as assertive begging? LOL
Selena says
If this thread has proved anything it’s that attitudes and expectations regarding sex vary tremendously from individual to individual. Therefore, the best any of us can do is be clear on what OUR OWN attiudes and expectations are, what works for ourselves, not assume a potential partner has the same mindset, and be willing to communicate about said attitudes and expectations if need be.
Evan Marc Katz says
And I’ve learned that while women expect men to understand and respect their desires, some women don’t seem to think that his desires matter. If he makes a move before you’re ready (whenever that is), he can easily be demonized as a perv, an asshole, or a man who’s “all about sex”
Your takeaway, if you’re in this camp, is that unless you can make him feel important and desirable and validate his feelings, you will accidentally alienate some good men. Just as a man who is tone-deaf to your boundaries will alienate you. It works both ways. Not just one way.
Fusee says
@Karmic Equation #106: “Begging from alphas…wow! They know how to do it right.”
There is no such thing as “begging” for alphas. It it looks like begging, it’s actually *game*.
And those know how to game a naive woman : )
Selena says
@#108
Agree.
Karmic Equation says
Below is excerpted from The Rules Revisited blog post entitled “Never say no to sex” – Confirming what EMK is saying. Note this is about not saying no to YOUR man — not not saying no to ANY man.
“To put this in perspective, consider the following. Men are largely independent, and don’t seek the same things from a relationship that women do. While men love your radiance, your light-heartedness and your femininity, we don’t crave these things anywhere near as deeply as we crave your body. Saying no to your man when he wants sex is analagous to him saying no to you when you look to him for emotional stability, direction, comfort or protection: though it is not the only reason he is attracted to you, it is the primary one. Sex is the one thing he wants most deeply but cannot provide for himself. I don’t mean that women exist solely for a man’s sexual satisfaction; but I do mean that his sexual satisfaction is critical to his happiness (more so than a woman’s is to hers) and that you hold the key to that satisfaction.”
Snooki says
he’s talking about sex in an exclusive relationship not casual dating. that went right over your head,
why is it so important to you that women fuck on demand? what is your emotional investment in this issue?
Karmic Equation says
@Fusee
I’m dating a player and understand game quite well. And the begging didn’t gain the other alpha the prize he was after. No was no. But it was entirely fun that he tried and I had the presence of mind (barely) to parry!
Selena says
@#111
But we’re not talking about saying No to YOUR man. We’re talking about navigating sexual expectations with men before a relationship has been established.
Fusee says
@Selena #113: Yes!
Indeed, once I learned that we were on the same page and that we had a promising level of compatibility, he got all of my high sex drive and bedroom enthusiasm to enjoy. He is not hearing “no” since he does not really have to ask : )
I completely agree with Evan #108: “…unless you can make him feel important and desirable and validate his feelings…”
Dating is about building a relationship. It’s about figuring out if we are compatible and how we can make one another feel loved. But he can’t do this assessement if I encourage him to be more sex-obsessed than he naturally is! Sex is an indispensable part of an intimate relationship – and as a woman I am aware that a commitment to marriage would entail a commitment to serving him sexually for the rest of my life and making him not regret to have chosen me as his one and only partner – but it’s not everything.
Indeed, as Evan wrote in another post, in a marriage you end up having sex for only a couple hours a week, so you’d better make sure you have other qualities and interests to keep you going. It’s okay for him to be driven by his urges, I’m not calling him names for his manliness, but I’m doing my woman-job, which is to elicit an emotional connection BEFORE sex. That’s why in the early dating stage, beside assessing general compatibility, I make sure that “I can make him feel important and desirable and validate his feelings, NON-SEXUALLY.
The side benefit of patience and self-control: when he realized how good he felt with me – WITHOUT SEX – he knew he was on something different than what he had experienced before. He felt close to me. For real.
That’s when I dropped my pants.
Selena says
Fusee, I didn’t see that last line coming! Thanks for the laugh. 🙂
Sounds like you’re into something good. May it only continue to get better. 🙂
sarahrahrah! says
@Fusee – 105
I always enjoy your thoughtful posts and I appreciate that you reflect on your behavior.
You avoid KISSING for as long as humanly possible?
We are all different, but I’ve got to think that KISSING is one of life’s greatest joys. There is so much communication that can take place during a long, passionate kiss. Things that can’t always be put into words. It doesn’t mean that it always has to lead to more. It can be wonderful just by itself.
On the path to your goal (marriage?), don’t forget to linger and enjoy yourself!
Fusee says
@sarahrahrah! #116:
Thank you for the reminder! No worries it’s been delightful. It’s hard to convey an accurate picture of how slow can look like over a couple of comments, and I’ve been focusing on the self-control part in these posts. Now I look like a nun or a control-freak. No worries, as long as humanely possible must not be that long… I kissed my irresistible boyfriend on date #4. We upgraded it to the French version on date #6 ; ) He’s been so good at accepting my pace and yet escalating the process gently. We’re a great team. I love him so much!
Serena27 says
From my own experience, I went on a date with a guy who tried to push for sex on the third date. He seemed like a gentleman and had only kissed me twice previously (no tongue). We weren’t connecting really well, but it was still early and I wanted to get to know him a bit better. We went to my place to watch a movie and then he wanted to have sex. I wanted to make out. I said I wasn’t ready for sex. We made out b/c I wanted to make out, but I had to say no several more times and that was really annoying. He gave up and was polite and friendly when he left. I decided he didn’t like me that much and I was not going to take him seriously. I never heard from him again! I was proud of myself for accurately reading the signs. The sad thing was, when I told some friends about it, they were shocked that I didn’t cave under the pressure. They kept saying “Good for you!” and I didn’t understand why it was such a big deal. I think a lot of women sleep with perfectly rational men who would have accepted a ‘no’ if the women had just said it. It’s a boundary just like any other. It’s up to each of us to decide what our boundaries are and to set them. And remember that you can’t set a boundary AND worry about another person’s feelings at the same time. Also, you can’t set a boundary that you aren’t ready to set. If you know that if you let a guy into your apartment and he moves for sex you will give in then don’t let him in if you aren’t ready for sex. Or if you know that you can be buck naked and still keep sex off the table then you have more options. Decide before you start the date how you want to end it and act accordingly.
With my current boyfriend, I was very impressed when we made out on the third date in his car with clothes on, and he didn’t try to go further. Same thing with the fourth date. I was so happy that: 1) he had self-control, 2) He was pursuing me strongly, and 3) He understood the joy of making out! On the fifth date he cooked dinner and we made out and I couldn’t take it any longer and gave him the green light. He wasn’t planning to sleep with me that night and told me a few weeks later that I was really special and he didn’t want to rush. In fact, he said he would have waited a MONTH for me! Now I find this very funny, b/c by some people’s standards, a month is rushing. So if I had wanted to wait for 6 months (or longer), I might have lost him. Likewise, if he had been pushing for sex early on, he might have lost me (asking is one thing, pushing is quite another). I had originally planned to wait a bit longer, but I think because I could sense how much he was treasuring me (zero pressure plus all the good signs Evan says to look for), I felt comfortable moving to the next step.
One last thing, we have to say no to some things in order to say yes to others. Say no to sex! Say yes to making out! (It’s really fun and it’s not the same after you’ve had sex. It’s something you can only enjoy fully before you’ve gone all the way. You can still enjoy it after, but it loses the sexual tension and mystery).
judy says
Evan Marc Katz – 108.
That was a very good point to make.
He has feelings too and it takes two. Sometimes, women can be really really hard on men.
Kathleen says
In my experience, I’m 67, dating again, .
If you take your pants off, 99.9% of men will think you mean “Yes, we are doing it!”
Many men think that if you invite them to your home.
Meg says
Evan you say that we have a right to set boundaries about how far we are willing to go and that this can help weed out men who are interested in more than sex. You also said it was normal for guys to pursue sex and try to get as far as possible. But where do you need to draw the line for pressuring? My example is, it’s date 2, and it’s a DVD night, I told the guy that I want to take things physically slow and that I need to know a guy better before i have sex with him. He says that’s fine but as I progress through hooking up with him he tries to start having sex with me without even using a condom. So I felt I had to guard myself basically. Then he asks to do it and then starts to get pissed off when I said sorry but it’s too soon. As soon as he noticed I was really frightened by this he apologized and he admitted he was being a jerk, he was just really turned on by me. But then shortly after could only talk about how he really wanted to have sex with me. I’m not sure whether that’s normal/acceptable behavior or not because the last couple guys I have slept with have done the same. He didn’t rape me, but it makes me feel hesitant to go on another date. He was otherwise a good date.
Elizabeth says
I HAVE to say the greatest and most memorable night I ever had with a man involved no intercourse. We “made out naked’ from apx 12am to 5am. It was FANTASTIC! He was from ARGENTINA and was such an amazing man. Is there a term for this? If not there sure needs to be! I can remember everything he did to me and said to me like a movie running thru my head. So yes, one can have the best night with a partner without intercourse!
Nikki says
I am in a long distance romantic relationship with someone I have known since we were young teenagers pining for each other but having no courage to pursue each other. 30 years later, the sexual attraction is real, and for 6 months we have phoned/texted a few times a week, and for the last 3 months we have spoken daily several times. We will be seeing each other in 3 weeks (April), and then not again probably until October. Obviously, we have had no physical contact, although we have had graphic conversations about what we like and prefer in bed. I will not have sex with him (or anyone else) outside of marriage (I am a single mom of more than a handful of kids already, and it’s just not going to work out for me to get pregnant outside of a marriage, so I’m just not taking any chances), and right now, he is perfectly respectful of that. But what I’m wanting to share is that in these 6 months, we have forged a very intimate bond with one another, having discussed our past divorces, other relationships, parenting styles, money management, our future plans and dreams, biggest disappointments, what we love about each other, and we have even had a few arguments over meaningful things. We share a deep acceptance of one another’s personal circumstances, a deep understanding of what makes the other tick, and a deep desire for a physical relationship. I appreciate that we have had this time without the “distraction” of physical intimacy, because we have spend hundreds of hours talking, laughing, crying, and sharing–many hours of which we would likely have traded for time spent in sexual, rather than intellectual and emotional, exploration. The time for sexual exploration and intimacy will come; I wouldn’t have had it one moment sooner. The bond we have now is far deeper than I had with my first husband after 6 months together, and we got MARRIED at that point. Live and learn–I’ve learned a lot in 20 years. Thanks for your blog; I’m enjoying it.
sara says
Thanks a lot. That’s a hell lot of self control. Would try it out. Its worth it!