How Do I Handle a Guy Who Gets Angry When I Won’t Have Sex With Him?

Couple Arguing

I’m an EMK junkie, rely on Why He Disappeared, divorced almost 2 years after a 15-year marriage, and a mother of two teenage boys. My situation is a little different. I’m not so worried that if I sleep with a man too soon, he’ll break my heart. I’m afraid if I do, it will cloud my judgment, I will minimize warnings or look away from very important character flaws. I’m not worried that Mr. Right now is the same as my last guy; I recognize that this is my issue, so I try to go slow. I mean not freakishly slow but slower than, it seems, everyone else. Recently, after a 2nd date, I followed your advice to the letter to try to figure out if he was interested in me or for sex. But I also did it because I saw some warnings signs (an undertone of control, blaming, and maybe some jealously) and he was clearly testing my boundaries sexually. I knew if I slept with him, I’d be a goner. He was a charmer but everything was on his terms.

Well, he disappeared after he got PISSED at me. He said “you said you were “just” dating” and blatantly lied about another concern I was trying to suss out. Evan, is it wrong to use your strategies when you are “just” dating? I do want a relationship, eventually, when a nice guy with an edge comes around but until then I am dating, having fun, getting to know them so I can decide and I make that clear from the start. And does “just” dating mean that I am “just” looking for sex in the eyes of the rest of the world?



Your question started off really strong and you lost me somewhere in that second paragraph. So let’s try to untangle what you actually wrote.

You seem to think it makes a difference WHY you choose not to have sex with a guy. It doesn’t.

You’re wise enough to know that sleeping with someone clouds your judgment. I call it the Deception of Passion. You have sex, the oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine and pheromones start flowing, and you get irrationally attached to someone who may not be a good long-term partner.

Great. Now that we’ve established this as a fact, we’ll dig in further.

You seem to think it makes a difference WHY you choose not to have sex with a guy. It doesn’t. He doesn’t need to know. He doesn’t need to understand. These are YOUR boundaries, no matter what the reasons are. And I suspect that a big part of your problem is that you tried to EXPLAIN all of this to him somehow.

Otherwise, I don’t see how he could have exploded at you.

If you did things exactly as I coach, it would have gone something like this:

Brad reaches for your belt buckle while simultaneously reaching for his wallet.

You put a hand on his and say, “Brad, I’m really attracted to you and I am having a GREAT time right now. Just so you know, I don’t sleep with guys that I’m not in an exclusive relationship with. So as much as I want you, until you and I figure out whether we’re a couple, we’re gonna have to just stick with some fun foreplay for the night.”

Him: “Wait, you don’t sleep with anyone who is not your boyfriend?”

You: “Something like that. It’s really easy to hop into bed with someone, but things tend to get a little messy unless we know where we stand. I have this funny thing about not sleeping with a guy who is still active on You can understand that, right, Brad?”

Him: “Yeah, I guess so.”

You: “So let’s get back down to business. We’ll figure out the rest as we go…”

And scene!

You fool around, he leaves, and the next day, he has to decide: is he into YOU, or does he just want to get laid? If he just wants to get laid, he’s barking up the wrong tree. But if he’s open to a potential relationship, he’ll call you quickly thereafter to set up another date. Together, you’ll navigate this territory, but the boundary has already been drawn.

So I don’t know where this went wrong for you, but I’m guessing your conversation didn’t go quite like that. I’m guessing you told him about the deception of passion, minimizing warning signs, keeping your options open, dating other men — all of which serves to TOTALLY destroy the moment, despite your best intentions.

You’re trying to date like a man, but you’re communicating like a woman.

The short version of what I’m saying is this: you’re trying to date like a man, but you’re communicating like a woman.

You’re trying to date around until you find the mythical “nice guy with edge”, which means you’re keeping your options open. But unlike men who do the same thing, you’re not sleeping with anybody and you’re having deep relationship discussions at precisely the wrong time. Which is what caused the latest bout of friction.

Listen, you’re entitled to do whatever you want. It’s not wrong to use my strategies when you’re just dating. They work in every situation. But it all begins with you being able to internalize the lessons and communicate your needs clearly.

Seems to me that you’re a little vulnerable, a little confused, and don’t really know whether you want to have sex outside of a commitment. And until you get clear on what you can handle, men will remain unclear on how to approach you.

To answer your question more pointedly, you can have fun with any number of guys who are not your boyfriend because you’re “just dating” until the right one comes along. And they are equally allowed to determine that since you’re not putting out, they’re going to fade away and find someone who DOES put out. This is called DATING. But if you use what I said above, the RIGHT guy will stick around and play by the rules and you won’t have to spend any time worrying about the WRONG guys who run.

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  1. 1

    I am too an EMK junkie and the book reader, however this particular rule is the one I’m having most trouble with. Unless sex is not that important to you there is a danger that you won’t be compatible in size/technique and it just won’t work in bed. It happened to me, I met an amazing “nice guy with an edge” on match, ten years older than me (in his late 30s) who was very serious and ready to settle down. However, it turned out he was completely impotent in bed and his style of love-making just wasn’t doing it for me. I had to end it (sadly), feeling completely shallow and an awful person for that. And if I had the exclusivity talk before I would have felt even worse I assume.  

    1. 1.1

      If you’d really been in love with the guy, and could see yourself marrying him, I’m betting you’d have given him more of  a chance. I do admit that I don’t know the first thing about either sex or love (never having had either), but I have heard enough from other couples to ascertain that. Sex is awkward with a new person, no doubt about it, but the mechanics of sex don’t seem like they’d be all that different from person to person. If it’s a matter of technique adjustment, did you ever try giving him encouragement to try different ways? Or even sit down and have a frank discussion about what you needed from him physically?

      1. 1.1.1

        lol yes you’d think that wouldn’t you!

        I find its more like dancing than mechanics you’ve either got the rythm or you haven’t

        And sadly no amount of instruction can help some people

    2. 1.2
      Karmic Equation

      If he were medically impotent, as opposed to situationally so (too nervous to get it up), he should have disclosed that somehow, before sex with you.

      And if he was limited to doing other stuff  instead of regular sex because of his medical condition, then he definitely should have disclosed that.

      I would think that for any red-blooded woman with functioning female parts, that “impotence” would be a major incompatibility, regardless if he were spectacular in other sexual acts.

      Now, if you’re saying you need to know if he’s competent  (or incompetent) in bed before committing to him, your anecdote would make more sense.

      And you’re right on that score. Competence in bed can only be determined by actually having sex. Although, I think men who pride themselves at being good at foreplay tend to be very good in bed.

      So, I would say that if a guy is good at foreplay, that’s a pretty good proxy for him being good at intercourse as well.

      That said, some men can be good lovers even if they’d rather forego foreplay.

      I don’t really care about which guy I get. But I have to have a guy whom I enjoy the thought of kissing, whether or not we actually kiss.

  2. 2

    I’m almost too embarrassed  to admit  the last two guys I was with pressured me into having unprotected sex after the first time we had sex with a condom.   They badger, they persist  in convincing/cajoling/coercing, even going so far as to offer me an ultimatum,  until I give in.   They don’t drop the subject.   I know next time to just put on my clothing and leave. But I end up feeling sort of defeated in having sex with a guy once and then deciding to end things. But my health is more important than spending more time with a guy I feel resentful towards anyway.  
    As to the OP, I think the same dynamic exists here, unprotected sex or not.   Men are pushy.   You may not want to offer an explanation but that doesn’t seem to faze them.   They either use shaming techniques (like, oh, you’re so uptight), guilt, you once you’ve gone far but not far enough for them, persuasion, what have you.
    Women are conditioned to make things nice and pleasant, so our natural reaction when a guy gets angry, is to smooth things over.   To some men, the only way to smooth things over is to give them their way.   Maybe in their mind they feel like what they’re doing is no big deal, or they know it’s wrong but their desires take precedence over the needs and feelings of women.  

    Those of us who are easily susceptible to being pressured (this actually extends to other areas of my life), have to simply learn to have a stronger back bone.  

    1. 2.1

      I agree with you there. It’s hard to have a back bone though! It’s hard to know where to start, how to say things, and still keep things stable…

    2. 2.2

      DT, get a backbone.    Why allow men to pressure you into having sex?… No means no.   You don’t need a reason.   Sex is an activity you’re either into or not on the date.   If you don’t want things to go there, don’t put yourself in that position.  If he gets angry or tries to flip the script, end the evening.   I don’t think you have to reassure him that you want to have sex with him too at some later point… or that you’ll be interested in sex under other circumstances… or any of that other stuff.   Just say no, it’s getting late, early morning etc… goodnight.    Anger is a sign of trouble ahead, just as disrespecting your feelings and having unprotected sex are signs of selfishness, risky behavior and immaturity.   Stop letting people push you around.

      1. 2.2.1

        Preach Pam- you rock! Yes if they don’t respect you and your wishes why do you want to be with them, and anger issues- red flag=run for the hills. And remember if they dip it in unwrapped with you who else they doing it with-yes protect your health and your heart ! xxxxx

    3. 2.3

      DT, I’m having that issue NOW! I met a guy 2 yrs ago, it never went anywhere bc he was too busy. So, I walked away before any first date.

      He contacted me 3 weeks ago, we started talking again. He asks to court me, so BEFORE we make plans I tell him 4 TIMES, not to aspect sex from me until I get a commitment. So, half way through out date, he asks me to be his girlfriend. We did mess around (foreplay) but no sex at all. He keep trying, he wanted me BAD, lucky we were at a hotel for the holiday, so he didn’t get too crazy but he did try to put a condom twice, ripping it off after I said I told you no sex! The next day he was angry and ended our trip early. So, for the pass week he’s been mean, not to mention he bossed me around the entire trip! I feel the pressure, he’s dying to get me to his house? I know if I go, he’s definitely going to have sex with me, yeah I know, that would be like rape.

      The entire time he was practicely ripping my clothes off, he keep saying your my girlfriend, its OK if I do this and that to you? Huh, but yeah now he’s ignoring me, so I’m ignoring him back. I’d like to see what happens next when I cancel my plans to see him next weekend. How are you holding up?

    4. 2.4

      You have to know what your boundaries are, communicate them and STAND YOUR GROUND. A man will have no choice BUT to respect you (unless he’s a narcissistic psychopath – which most of them are, lol).

      Now. As to the pushy, persistent, coercive male he is just plain old selfish and has no respect for the feelings of others. Learn this and learn it well: People can only do what you allow them to do.

      I recently encountered such a person. I told him I was celibate for 20 years because of my faith in God and the beauty of what He showed me He designed for the marriage relationship. He told me I was trying to force my religion on him..yet not once did I tell him that HE had to be celibate..I was simply sharing my reasons. He then proceeded to do everything he could to get me to have relations with him (just who was trying to force something on someone here?) but all he ever got from me was a calm, quiet, firm “NO”. He finally became vindictive towards me (which I expected, these kinds of men all read from the same script, the only thing that changes is the woman) but he was already a goner in my book.

      He was the type who moved too quick – he tried several times to get me to accept a nice bedroom set that he had in storage (he couldn’t afford to pay the storage bill)   asked me if I wanted him to move with me into my new apartment and tried to get me to put his storage room in my name. He was living with someone and trying to get out of it and his way was simply finding some else that was willing to take care of his trifling behind and getting in quickly and getting sex was usually the method that worked for him (he was living with a woman at the time this happened) -that and trying to play the blame game like most men who are stuck in adult bodies but still behave as though they are children. At any rate he had to go.

      It is not natural to smooth things over when once you have been disrespected. It’s something we have been taught to do in a Patriarchal society. You must learn (quickly) to unteach yourself this bad habit. It’s okay to get angry and to tell him about himself. But you should never let them get away with treating you poorly – if you do, you are not only hurting your relationship, yourself and him, you are harming other women that may come after your relationship ends. So relax, and let him have it and don’t take anything off of them. Keep your boundaries intact no matter what they say and if they give you and ultimatum just say “okay” and leave. And finally, never, ever compromise your values or beliefs for anyone, especially someone who doesn’t respect you – you will end up losing every time.

    5. 2.5

      The most amazing reply i ever heard. I saaved every word and will practice your words.   I hope I can do it!!

  3. 3

    I’ve often thought there may be two camps: those who see sex as part of getting to know someone and see if a relationship develops and those who see sex as something that happens after a relationship has been established.   All depends on when one feels comfortable. If one isn’t comfortable having sex on a second date why should ANY explanation be necessary beyond “I’m not there yet” ? Said with a smile ideally. 🙂
    On another blog I read there are always men who claim if a woman doesn’t have sex with  by the third date, they assume she isn’t interested and move on. Apparently any other kind of interest-showing doesn’t  *count* – including “rounding the bases”.   I find this a bit disturbing for women  because usually two people have only spent a few hours together by the third date.   That’s quite a short span to become comfortable with someone – much less be expected to be comfortable sharing your body.
    And as good as EMK’s advice is, the timeline for wanting to be exclusive, to be a girlfriend is going to vary from woman to woman.   There are those who want to see how the sex actually goes before making a semi-commitment, but they don’t necessarily want to be rushed into bed either.

    (Selena – if you can handle having sex before commitment, go ahead. Many women sleep with a guy and then freak out wondering if he’ll ever call again. This advice is for those women – EMK)

  4. 4

    Exclusivity  can mean different things to different people. For some, it’s merely an agreement to only date each other and see how that goes.  Others interpret it as being a couple – the boyfriend/girlfriend level.    One might need more than  a  couple dates to determine if they  are on the same page as far as exclusivity goes, and  even if they want to be exclusive- whichever definition.   So while your advice is great for women who don’t handle sex before commitment very well, what about those who see sex as part of getting to know someone before committing, but NOT  something they feel comfortable doing with someone they’ve only spent a few hours with?
    What happens if a woman follows your script on date 2 and the guy says “Sure, I want to be exclusive with you!” The outcome may not be any different than it would have been sans script. Or the woman could agree, only to find the next week she didn’t want to be exclusive to that guy.   😉
    What I see with these scenarios is mainly people feeling pushed into making decisions/explanations/excuses before they’ve  gotten to know each very well.  Rushed – both sides. Again, it goes back to having sex when both parties feel comfortable. Why should one be expected to feel comfortable right away, or feel rejected if one wants to wait a little longer?
    And Evan, I’m off the market :). I’m just offering some observations.

    1. 4.1

      LOL I decided to draw my boundary around sex to be sexclusive. I was on a first date with someone who was coming on strong. I used Evan’s words – I have sex only within an exclusive relationship when we’re not dating anyone else. No pressure.  
      He quickly replied “I’m not dating anyone else right now!”.   Made me laugh. Nice try at a loophole, dude, but sorry!

      1. 4.1.1

        It must be the same guy. Lol

  5. 5

    Lenac #1
    “his style of love-making just wasn’t doing it for me. I had to end it (sadly), feeling complete shallow and an awful person for that”
     ­I think you’re being a bit hard on yourself Lenac. I personally think it’s very reasonable to dump someone who is sexually incompatible with you if it’s very important to you. It is very difficult to improve sexual compatibility.
    Selena #3
    “I read there are always men who claim if a woman doesn’t have sex with by a third date, they assume she isn’t interested”
    The reason guys do this is because in our experience it often happens that the more a woman likes us, the quicker she will sleep with us. Almost the whole time we are dating a woman before sex we are weighing up in our mind whether she’s worth the effort to keep dating (at the risk that she’s unsure or ambivalent about how she feels about us) or whether it would be a more efficient use of our resources (time, energy and money) to move on to someone who definitely really likes us (someone who sleeps with us quickly).
    I personally never wait more than one or two dates because, well, there will always be someone else I could date who will have sex with me within that (my) timeframe.
    “I find this a bit disturbing for women…that’s quite a short span to become comfortable with women — much less be expected to be comfortable sharing your body”
    I see your point, but really what a guy expects is totally irrelevant. Who cares what guys expect? Women really need to do what suits them and to hell with what the guy thinks. Ironically he will respect you more for doing what you want, not what he wants.
    “How do I handle a guy who gets angry when I won’t have sex with him?…The RIGHT guy will stick around and play by the rules and you won’t have to spend any time worrying about the WRONG guys who run”
    Can’t argue with that.
    But I’ve always wondered why don’t ALL women just wait as long as necessary until they’re comfortable, as women know from a young age that men like nsa sex? Because men with  options will just move on, and unfortunately these are the men that women want.
    So the tricky thing for women is how to get a man who has the power to move on, to stick around on her timeframe. To achieve this she might have to lower her expectations.
    In my experience women usually take the gamble of sleeping with a man with options in the hope that he might develop feelings and stick around. I think they would be wise to listen to you and have sex when it suits her, not him. If he doesn’t like it? bye bye

  6. 6

    If I was looking to just get laid, that dialogue you lay out would be music to my ears.   I would call her the next day, tell her all nice things and how I want to really pursue starting something with her. Then,    hide my profile to gain her confidence. Then she will let her guard down and have sex soon afterwards since he hit all the bullet points. Then probably fade away on her.
    Whenever a girl lays out the conditions of her needing to have sex, its a roadmap straight to her vagina. I  can sweet talk her, and hide my profile for a week until I get what I want. Then move on.  
    For some reason, many women have this false sense of security that if a guy tells them he wants exclusivity and hides his profile, that he is really into her. If he does it on his own accord, then yes I would agree. But if it happens as a result of the girl telling him that’s the conditions to make her feel comfortable, then its really poor advice. Any guy who is smooth can fake it for a week or two if she lays it all out for him like that. Guys will lie just to get the notch.
    While in theory this is good advice, Evan, any shark can smell lots and lots of blood in the water when a girl states what she needs in order to have sex. And in online dating, there are lots of sharks. If I am with a girl and after the first date she says that she doesn’t just want to be a booty call, I know its time to put on the clean sheets. Because then I steer the conversations towards “couply” things to gain her confidence that is what I am looking for too. And then by the next date or two, she gives it up.
    The moral of the story is for the girl to NOT tell the guy her requirements for sex. If she doesn’t want to have sex then just don’t. No reason needs to be given. But then be prepared if by the 3rd or 4th date he stops calling you. Trust me, when a girl says she wants to be more than a booty  call, or only has sex in a relationship, the con job will begin and that acting job wont have to last long to get the lay.

    1. 6.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Oh, John. Here’s the deal: Any schmuck can lie his way through life – say one thing, do another. Thinking about all the variables about all the bad people in the world is simply too mind boggling to consider. Imagine going out with a woman and second-guessing everything she said: her name, whether or not she has kids back home, whether she really is employed at the company she says… It’s exhausting.

      Here in civilized society, MOST non-sociopaths have a sense of decorum about such things. You may see, “I only sleep with boyfriends” as the cue to start lying your ass off, calling her your girlfriend, and saying you’re falling for her. Is this behavior possible? Of course. Thankfully, it’s rare. Because men don’t HAVE to lie to get laid anymore. As Tom10 pointed out, there’s always an easier woman just a text a way. For most people, not only is it morally abhorrent to deceive someone so blatantly under false pretenses, but it’s a significant waste of time. Easier to move along if you just wanna get laid.

      Which is why my “dialogue” has worked wonders for thousands of women who scare off men who don’t want to a) invest a lot of time in someone who is not planning on having sex outside commitment and b) say a whole bunch of false things to achieve their selfish sexual goals.

      To all the women reading this – I’m sorry on behalf of all the tools who give my gender a bad name. Seriously, John, you’ve posted here many times before. It was not at all obvious that you were an amoral liar. How do you defend this Machiavellian worldview? When I was slutting around, I would play the “don’t ask, don’t tell” game, where I wouldn’t necessarily divulge my long-term feelings at the outset of a date. But I never ever told a woman I loved her or wanted to commit to her in order to get in her pants. I think those are worlds away from each other.

    2. 6.2

      At least you’ve spoken the truth about how people lie.     and why not?     There’s no penalty for lying— you   won’t serve time or pay a fine.   The only result is disappointment, and hopefully not a life changing disease.

      He’ll disappear and slither away with no remorse.   I appreciate this bit of truth telling.   It’s low down, but real!    When he doesn’t call back, quickly move on.   If ALL women would take heed, this would be the latest and GREATEST trending behavior in dating. But the reality is that there are far too many lonely, bored and desperate people out there.   It is very hard to convince someone in their 20’s and 30’s of this truth.

  7. 7

    It doesn’t matter the reason; no is no and you are wise to wait and see.
    here is what I think:
    he is such a boon no one wants him so he accuses women of just being serial daters. I had one say that to me on the first date. He said are you looking for a relationship? Because most girls just like to serial date. I said of course.  
    but then it became apparent why he was making that assumption! He had more red flags than a communist parade

  8. 8
    Karl S

    If the guy got pissed at you because you wouldn’t have sex on the 2nd date then he’s probably not a guy worth keeping.
    If a date is really going well, I might “test the boundaries” by dropping hints to see if she’s comfortable with going further that evening (and some are happy to). However, I’m always fully able to accept and respect a “no” answer.
    Evan’s suggestion of explaining it a certain way to keep things light and friendly might useful, but I still think getting pissed off on the 2nd date is a bit of an immature reaction from this man, regardless of you how you tried to frame things.

  9. 9

    I think that Beth is wondering if she did something wrong to push the man away, but I think he simply revealed himself as someone who was just looking to get laid. IMO, a man who exhibits “an undertone of control, blaming, and maybe some jealously”, and then gets pissed when sex doesn’t happen after only 2 dates, is displaying some red flags. I have news for him, even many women who are “just dating” might not want to sleep with someone after just 2 dates.

    As Selena wrote, many women just want to be sure that the person they are sleeping with isn’t sleeping with anyone else, not that they are necessarily an official couple. Although some women might want that reassurance as well.
    Whenever I’ve dated a man who disappeared after he realized that I wasn’t going to sleep with him by the 3rd date, that man was not looking for a relationship with me; he was “just dating”. A guy with any sort of long term interest isn’t going to disappear if a women says she wants to take things more slowly, as long as she makes it clear that she is interested in getting to know him better.

  10. 10

    This man was wanting sex with a stranger. You were still a stranger to him after two dates. He wasn;t interested in you as a person, he just wanted to use your body.Would you really want to date a man who just wanted to use a womans body for sex without getting to know her as a person?
    Would you really want to date him again, let alone consider him realtionship material?

    1. 10.1

      Well said!

    2. 10.2

      Hell naw! I don’t like having sex anyway. He acts like he’s desperate for sex, quiet as it’s kept I hate having sex with him and that’s if I want too and it pisses him off when I go years or months without it. I have my reasons why I don’t like having sex. And I’m okay without it. When I first met him, it was okay and now I do whatever is necessary to stay the hell away from him. I’m on a lot of medication and my sex drive is NO good. And he does not understand anything. I smelt his private part after he took his under wears off and I’m like what the hell is that smell. That turnt me off completely. I have trust issue with him and that’s another reason I don’t have sex he turns me off. I don’t need any infections from him either. He’s a sex craving maniac so I know since he doesn’t get it from me, he’s getting it elsewhere.

  11. 11

    A few observations here. First off, it’s possible that Beth did an ok job of talking about her desire not to sleep with the guy, and he just flipped because he wanted some and she wasn’t going there.It’s fair to say that with some men, no matter how well you handle things, they’re gonna get upset. Because frankly, they’re operating from an entitled mindset. So, it may not be about you Beth.
    With that said, DT – some guys are pushy, others aren’t. If you’re finding yourself meeting a lot of guys pressuring and shaming you, it may be time to consider shifting your approach to dating up. Developing a stronger backbone is a great life asset, but that alone won’t address a pattern of attracting bro-dudes hell bent on getting nookie. One thing you might start to look out for are guys who bring up sex too much in initial conversations, either before you meet or after. Or guys who start in with the “romantic talk” right away. Dudes that roll out piles of compliments and “hey sexy, hey baby” kind of stuff are suspect in my book. A little bit of that thing is fine, but I’ve noticed that women who struggle with the kind of boundary issues you bring up are often tricked by guys who verbally ramp things up prematurely.
    As for me, I never much cared for casual sex, and only a couple of times slept with women after 1 or 2 dates. It just didn’t feel right to me, and I know plenty of men who think similarly. There’s never been any magical timeline in my experience. You just have to feel your way through it all, and be clear about where you are at, but also be willing to take some risks if the other person seems worth doing that. Selena’s point about the endless variations of “exclusivity” is important, and what it basically comes down to is that you can’t eliminate risk. You can only minimize it. Or eliminate stupid and unnecessary risks. That’s all.
    I’ve been on both sides of the fence with the flub not too long after the “exclusivity decision.” Sometimes, the very act of stepping things up to a more serious position makes you or them realize you’re not really the best match for each other. Without that step, you could linger on weeks or months not knowing for sure.

    1. 11.1

      If a man is looking an honest woman he should be proud of her and not be an angry bird.

  12. 12

    Hmmm. My interpretation of Beth’s question/issue is quite different. As I see it Beth will save physical intimacy for when she meets her perfect guy (“slower than anyone else” = “eventually, when a nice guy with an edge comes around“) but will platonically date non-ideal guys till then. If this is the case, well, yes, guys don’t date just to have platonic fun. My hunch is the guy felt he got played and wasn’t happy about it.

  13. 13

    I think that if women go into great detail about saying, “well I’m not going to do x until y and z happen or a and b could happen” can be interpreted as passive aggression.   I’m not saying that was the OP’s intent so please don’t misunderstand. Evan is correct, the less said, the better.   A woman should have clear, firm boundaries.   Does she risk going without a date for a while?   Possibly, maybe even likely.   I look at is like this: if a guy disappears because I don’t have sex on his time table, then he’s out of my life and I don’t have to deal with him.   I do have to deal with me and do what’s right for me.   I am aware it comes with a price.   Doing the right thing always has a cost.   That’s why it’s not always easy to do.

    1. 13.1

      I live my life according to your philosophy. Bravo!

    2. 13.2

      I’d rather pay the price than to have to deal with foolishness. There are all KINDS of men out there and most of them are looking for a woman they can roll over. I learned a long time ago that knowing yourself and what you can tolerate is the best plan of action – and then paying attention to what a man is (or very often is not) saying will tell you all you need to know. Personally, I don’t care how easy it is for a man to get s_x elsewhere, if a man is asking for or expecting it on the 2nd date it’s a pretty good indicator that he may be involved, likely watches pornography and his significant other won’t allow him to degrade her by performing the lewd acts hes seen in said porn flicks and he is out looking for someone he can do those things to…hence the push to have s_x as quickly as possible.

      There is also another possibility – if s_x is so plentiful waiting should be no issue. If you are clear about your boundaries (and clear doesn’t mean you have to give him a speech, you just have to say “no” when the subject comes up and stand your ground) and he respects them that is an indicator that he is somewhat decent and isn’t just out to get some – at least not from you because there is a respect level there and he won’t cross that line unless you cave. It all depends upon the circumstances that he’s in.

      But in my experience men are all pretty much the same, with few exceptions. They will always appreciate something/someone if they have to work hard to obtain it/them.

  14. 14

    Your dialogue has worked well for thousands of women in finding their true love. Congratulations. It has also worked well  for thousands of guys who want an easy lay. My whole point is to just not verbalize such an obvious thing.
    This comment of yours is silly:
    ” Because men don’t HAVE to lie to get laid anymore”
    You know why its  silly?   Because men still do lie to get laid. You are ignoring the fact many men will do this. Nowadays, men don’t need to lie to get laid. They need to lie to get laid faster and with less effort.  
    If a guy knows he only wants sex from a girl he will look for it to happen as quickly as possible so he spends as less time and money and energy as possible. If a girl doesn’t have your dialogue, he has no idea how long or what effort it will take so he will just move on and weed himself out.
    But if she has your dialogue, he can now quantify it. For a guy to give the impression she is his one and only, takes such little effort. If a small investment of time and money greases the wheel its a high return on investment for him. It happens. As much as you abhor that mindset because you never did that while you were a prolific dater, there are many guys that do have that mindset.
    One thing to consider is why would a girl say things like “I want to be more than just a booty call” OR “I only have sex in a relationship” . The answer is because she has already fallen victim to the guys that use her for a booty call and had sex outside of a relationship. So there is your proof that not only does it happen, but it happened to her.
    But I never ever told a woman I loved her or wanted to commit to her in order to get in her pants. I think those are worlds away from each other.
    I never told a woman I loved her to get in her pants. I don’t know many guys that do this either. But I sure as hell know plenty of guys that have told her he would commit to her to get sex  and yet  still played the field unbeknownst to her.   I am not saying I do this. I am saying that it happens a lot. And if you don’t think that is the case, you are giving a false sense of security.

    1. 14.1

      John what your saying is so true, I am a 33 year old woman and the games are real out here, men know exactly what to do in order to get a woman regardless of whoever dialogue she uses. Men realize that no woman us hard to get, they realize that all women want is understanding and and listening ear.

  15. 15

    @Tom 10
    I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him. How can one know they really like someone they’ve only spent a few hours with?   They may know they are sexually attracted. They may know they are horny. They may feel “It’s been awhile, what the hell”.   They may see potential for something beyond sex, but they can’t really know how much they like someone until they actually get to know them. If people have sex after only spending a few hours together, why would they think it means anything beyond they both wanted sex that day?
    There are women who won’t have sex right away with a man they are attracted to, a man they see might have relationship potential, because they like him and want to get to know him better. Not the opposite.   We know that even in 2013 there are still some fellows who hold a double standard when it comes to sex, ie: if she sleeps with him “too soon” she must do that with most of the guys she goes out with, so he’s not special and therefore she’s not special. Not all men feel that way fortunately, but how is one to know that after only a few hours in someone’s company?
    There are many women who get very attached after having sex and learn it’s best to wait until it looks like the guy may stick around before doing the deed. There are women like the LW Beth, who’ve found that having sex early clouds their judgement when it comes to evaluated whether the guy is a good match or not.   More tempting to ignore all those red flags if one has something sexual going. And there are women who have had sex with men they were attracted to, only to find they really didn’t like the guy all that much once they got to know him better. These are all reasons women may not want to ‘put out’ with someone they’ve known so briefly. Along with simply not being comfortable sharing something so intimate so soon.
    I get that men don’t want to waste time/energy/money on women who are ambivilant (or flat out uninterested) in them, but making that assessment after only two or three dates, basing it on their willingness to have sex – just seems premature and shortsighted to me.
    Related, many people both men and women have found situations where they had sex on dates 1,2,3 never led to a relationship regardless how much they thought they liked the other person at the time. It just isn’t a predictor of anything. Getting to know someone is what makes people choose to get into a relationship.   And it  seems sometimes on dating forums there are numerous souls who don’t  understand that. Hence the confusion over expectations, etc.  

    1. 15.1

      Excellent post! Thank you!

  16. 16

    Jeez…I guess women everywhere are just going to have to snap to and start building up their confidence in a REAL way.
    Some magical things happen, when a woman has a high confudence level- She can remain within her personal boundaries without being shaken by a negative reaction. She feels no NEED to explain “why?” she won’t cross that boundary. The answer will remain “Because I respect myself.”. And finally, she may enjoy pretty words, yet a confident woman is all about action. 1 or 2 weeks of pretty words and a disappearing profile will not cause her to magically step beyond a well established and nurtured boundary.

    1. 16.1

      You can be confident and still be clear, up front and honest.

      What I find astounding is that men never seem to consider that they also are being evaluated. Let’s be realistic here – if all a woman wants is s_x she will have no more trouble getting it than a man would. But who wants that? What woman wants a whorish man? I know I don’t.

      Being up front is an adult thing. If men were more mature themselves they would see it as such and as a considerate measure – it tells him that if s_x is all he wants he’s not going to get it here so he can move on. No time, energy or effort wasted on either part. I don’t need his money, time, or presence in my life if he is about nothing and as I am the only one who is going to decide what I do with my body based solely upon what I want and nothing a man says or does, a smart man would just move on quickly.

      As far as honesty being a roadmap, well each of us has boundaries for a different reason. But it works both ways as I stated above. If a man continues to try and run game so he can get the s_x AFTER I HAVE TOLD HIM THAT I AM CELIBATE, I can assure you that I can play the game better and smarter and he will leave the same way he came in – empty handed. As a woman, I hold all the cards. And in my experience, most men simply do not understand commitment and always see celibacy as some kind of deprivation. And in a lot of respects it is…but in the best, sweetest and pure kind of way. My convictions are solid….I’m going to have what I want God’s way or I’m going to have nothing. I’m content with that.

      Being honest definitely affords me the opportunity to see what HE is about – quickly so my time is not wasted. If he tries to bumrush me into s_x within a short period I know what I’m dealing with and can move away with no regrets having lost nothing.

      No we don’t need to explain but it’s not really about that. Its about being up front. I tell every man who shows interest in me that I am celibate. Some stick around because they (foolishly) see it as a challenge, while others leave immediately. Thank you. Either way, my values remain intact and my body, heart and soul untouched.

  17. 17

    “I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him…making that assessment after only two or three dates, basing it on their willingness to have sex — just seems premature and shortsighted to me”
    I agree that just because a woman has sex quickly doesn’t necessarily mean she really likes him (as you say, how could one possibly know that in such a short time-frame?). However, personally the biggest compliment a woman can give me is to have sex with me. If a woman has sex with me quickly I can make the following inferences:
    –                 She’s attracted to me
    –                 She doesn’t think I’m a bad guy
    –                 She feels safe with me
    –                 I have established where she lies on the sexual spectrum.
    It will take a lot longer to establish this information by waiting for her. I know that for some women sex isn’t a big deal so early sex mightn’t necessarily mean a whole lot, but my personal experience has been that sex happens quickly if she’s interested.
    It could well be true that women who are uncomfortable having early sex are still very interested, but that doesn’t suit me so I’m not going to wait around to find out.
    I suppose it just comes down to the sexual values of the two people in question. Beth is absolutely right to take as long as she needs to feel comfortable to have sex. Her man was out of line to get pissed about her boundaries; he should have been polite, wished her good luck and promptly moved along.

  18. 18
    Sparkling Emerald

    Selena 16 –   Awesome post !   You are spot on about EVERYTHING !

  19. 19

    I’ve had men get angry at me for saying this, you know why its good that I gave them my boundaries because I dodged the huge bullet of a man who gets upset with a woman who won’t sleep with a man after 1-2 dates.

    1. 19.1

      I’m with you girl!

  20. 20
    Karl R

    John said: (#15)
    “I sure as hell know plenty of guys that have told her he would commit to her to get sex and yet still played the field unbeknownst to her.”
    Men like that are called chronic cheaters and liars. Furthermore, there is a way to catch on to these kind of games, provided the woman bothers to look.
    Women who want to avoid men like you need to date men who have integrity. People with integrity display that integrity rather consistently. People who lack integrity will demonstrate that lack provided they’re given enough time to demonstrate it. (Of course, there’s no shortage of women who will overlook a lack of integrity when they’re attracted to a man.)
    Another clue is to pay attention to the men who seem to rush into a committed relationship too quickly. If a man appears to be telling a woman what she wants to hear, instead of telling her what he actually thinks/feels/believes, that’s at least a yellow flag.
    John said:  (#15)
    “Nowadays, men don’t need to lie to get laid. They need to lie to get laid faster and with less effort.”
    That’s your idea of “faster and with less effort”? Your way (creating an elaborate fictional relationship) seems to take more time and effort than simply moving on until I found a woman who wanted no-strings-attached sex. Furthermore, I was able to avoid getting a reputation for being a liar or cheater.
    Evan’s advice works because most people (men and women) are sufficiently ethical that they dislike  overtly lying to someone’s face. There will always be exceptions (like you).
    Selena said: (#16)
    “I’m curious about this assertion that a woman who has sex with a man in the first few dates means she really likes him.”
    It’s probably more accurate to say that the woman is really attracted to the man. My most serious relationships were with women who were sufficiently attracted to me to bend their own rules. If a woman preferred to wait, the relationship ended up being a non-starter.

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