Why Women Are Not Incels and Never Murder in Cold Blood

This observation from an article by Jia Tolentino blew me away. Bold type is mine:

“These days, in this country, sex has become a hyper-efficient and deregulated marketplace, and, like any hyper-efficient and deregulated marketplace, it often makes people feel very bad. Our newest sex technologies, such as Tinder and Grindr, are built to carefully match people by looks above all else. Sexual value continues to accrue to abled over disabled, cis over trans, thin over fat, tall over short, white over nonwhite, rich over poor. There is an absurd mismatch in the way that straight men and women are taught to respond to these circumstances.

These days, in this country, sex has become a hyper-efficient and deregulated marketplace

Women are socialized from childhood to blame themselves if they feel undesirable, to believe that they will be unacceptable unless they spend time and money and mental effort being pretty and amenable and appealing to men. Conventional femininity teaches women to be good partners to men as a basic moral requirement: a woman should provide her man a support system, and be an ideal accessory for him, and it is her job to convince him, and the world, that she is good.

Men, like women, blame women if they feel undesirable. And, as women gain the economic and cultural power that allows them to be choosy about their partners, men have generated ideas about self-improvement that are sometimes inextricable from violent rage.”

Hell, we’ve seen it in the comments section here. Although I delete the most hateful comments immediately into the trash, my desire for a free forum allows misogynists to vent about their frustrations with women right alongside women venting their frustrations about men. But the author above has a point. Women look inward in an attempt to take responsibility in some way for her relationship failures. Men look outward. It’s why I’m a coach for women, not men. It’s not that men don’t need help. They do, and desperately. It’s that they generally don’t ask for it. If they’re not getting laid, they’re more likely to blame an entire gender for their woes.

Women look inward in an attempt to take responsibility in some way for her relationship failures. Men look outward.

I always knew there were 20, 30 and 40-year old virgins. What I didn’t know until they started killing people was that they were an organized community called Incels (short for involuntarily celibate). Per this Glamour article, “(Incels are) an online community of men who are, in the simplest terms, angry that they can’t convince women to have sex with them. Unlike typical men who are irked they’re not having sex, incels don’t grouse to their friends over beers and try to pick up girls at bars—they talk about overthrowing feminism and, often, plot violence against women….What incels want is extremely limited and specific: they want unattractive, uncouth, and unpleasant misogynists to be able to have sex on demand with young, beautiful women. They believe that this is a natural right.”

If there hasn’t been enough written about the differences between men and women, we can see it right here. Women rarely, if ever, murder strangers out of rage, but I have never heard of any woman wanting to destroy men because she can’t get laid. This is a problem unique to the male gender and the times in which we live. I don’t have a solution for it, no more than I have a solution for our political discourse, but I do think it’s worth it to discuss how sad, lonely guys think this is their only way out. Are incels just like ISIS or Alex Jones’ followers? People who are looking for someone to blame and devoting their entire existence to justifying that blame instead of looking in the mirror…

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Noone45

    Why is it always about blame? We as a society need to stop putting so much pressure on people to have sex and be in romantic relationships.  We should stop judging each other based on them. Some among us, myself included, have situations which make us unmarketable to others. I’m unattractive and my son is autistic. Neither one of these things is something others want in a relationship. But my unattractivness doesnt make me a bad person. It doesnt make me a worthless human. It’s just bad luck. No one is to blame. Yet I’m judged for that. People tell me I’m pessimistic because I acknowledge my own reality. I am happy inspite of that reality. I’m not sure how I found this blog in the first place, but the woes of the normals are fascinating.

    I’m sure some of these people have personalities that need sorting out, or maybe they need to hit the gym, etc., but they can be happy outside of a relationship.  They can be fulfilled without one. One has to let go over the need to control and the feeling they are entitled to something. It doesnt matter if you are a good person, life isnt fair. We need to stop selling the myth that everyone can have romantic love or that its nesscary for one to have a happy life.

    However, I concede they’ll likely find another reason to murder 🤷‍♀️

    1. 1.1
      Persephone

      Attractiveness is so arbitrary. You think you’re unattractive, to your own self. And there’s probably someone out there who would find your autistic son delightful, and bring a lot of sunshine to their life.

    2. 1.2
      Cathalei

      Attractiveness is on the eye of the beholder. Others are not perfect either so there can be someone who finds you attractive and your autistic son a bright spot of their life. Most of the attractiveness depends on attitude anyway.

      I agree that romantic relationships shouldn’t be the basis of one’s self-worth but people shouldn’t be shamed for desiring them as well. We are social creatures and we desire various types of love, romantic being one of them. Though not everyone is suited for it. But if it’s said people who have no interest in it or have had some failures are worthless, these things happen.

  2. 2
    Tom10

    Wow; great topic. Where to even start?
     
    Firstly, I think we’ve always had violent sexually-frustrated young men; hormones and all that. And we’ve always had guys who got the short straw in dating; the guys who can’t get laid due to sheer bad luck in the genetic/status lottery. Unwitting casualties of the invisible hand guiding us all.
     
    What’s changed today, however, is the Internet has provided a platform for incels to pool their anger, form a group and magnify the problem. Media exposure has also highlighted the consequences.
     
    Also, with young women now having their own education and income, they don’t *need* men as much and can afford not to compromise, therefore; naturally and inevitably they will gravitate to the highest-quality men and the other guys simply lose out. One can expect this trend to grow worse as women become more and more educated and fewer men cut the mustard and become incels.
     
    Evan said:
    “This is a problem unique to the male gender and the times in which we live. I don’t have a solution for it”
     
    My suggestions to alleviate the problem:
    –          the government could form a volunteering body where mature men would volunteer to mentor and guide fatherless boys. I’ve no doubt that a disproportionate percentage of incels have no steady male role models in their lives.
    –          Introduce a dating module into the education curriculum where successful men can educate struggling young men how to get their shit together, become winners and succeed in dating. I.e. show them how to make an education and career plan, a fitness plan, how to dress properly, how to flirt, how to communicate and escalate appropriately (not too much, not too little). These things take time to learn, whereas testosterone doesn’t wait around.
    –          legalize prostitution.
    –          destigmatize prostitution.
     
    Unfortunately I reckon this problem is with us to stay; however, the steps above might help alleviate it somewhat.
     
    “Women look inward in an attempt to take responsibility in some way for her relationship failures. Men look outward”
     
    Not sure I agree with this. Young male suicide, drug/alcohol abuse and lower rates of seeking medical/professional help actually tell that many young men also look inward when struggling.
     
    As regards to why unsuccessful female don’t also go on violent rampages? I reckon it’s mostly simply down to hormones; it’s not a coincidence that the majority of violence in every society, in every country in every era is committed by men between the ages of 15 and 30.

    1. 2.1
      Jeremy

      I agree with you here, Tom. The problem isn’t new. Men without prospects throughout history entered (or were co-opted into) armies. Armies raped and pillaged. I’d say that young, single men are far less likely to rape and kill women than ever before in history, and that while the internet has indeed provided platforms for “incels” to gather, better there than armies or militias.

      It’s not that women look inward more than men. How many women on this site or elsewhere blame men for their woes? About the same as men blame women, I recon. The difference is that rage is a manifestation of male depression, whereas it is not a common manifestation of female depression. Depressed women are sad. Depressed men are often furious. It’s easier to treat a sad person than a furious one, because the sad one doesn’t frighten you.

      Sure, I think it would be good for young men to learn about how to date women. I can see the argument for legal prostitution.. But I don’t think that will solve the problem until we find a way to not only de-stigmatize treatment of male depression, but to incentivize it.

      1. 2.1.1
        Marika

        Certainly both women and men on this blog rage against and blame the opposite sex. The research does show though, that, at least in childhood, girls are more likely to have internalising disorders like anxiety and depression, and boys externalising, like oppositional defiant disorder. At least, when I was studying this was the case.

        It probably doesn’t really matter in terms of gender, but I do think the ability to be introspective and focus on what you can personally do (the only person you can control) in a situation is a vital skill. Of course taken too far (perfectionism, constant self blame) isn’t healthy either. But how many long and nasty, frustrating threads here start because someone blames external circumstances for their problems. I remember Karl R used to get into debates with frustrated or downright angry daters. No matter how many valid points he would make about how their own attitude contributed to the problem, or tips for ways they could improve things, it was always someone else’s fault. Where do you go from there?

      2. 2.1.2
        Tom10

        @ Jeremy
        “The difference is that rage is a manifestation of male depression, whereas it is not a common manifestation of female depression…I don’t think that will solve the problem until we find a way to not only de-stigmatize treatment of male depression, but to incentivize it.”
         
        Agreed.
         
        However, there are reasons why we stigmatize depression and young men don’t acknowledge their depression and seek treatment.
         
        Why?

        Because there are real, tangible, deleterious consequences for doing so. Acknowledging mental illness will likely materially impact one’s employment and/or dating/opportunities: it’s only human for potential employers and romantic partners to value individuals with no mental health issues over ones with a history of depression.
         
        I can’t see how we can change/eliminate these consequences, and until we remove them we’ll still retain the stigma. That’s why mental health is different to general health, in contradiction of the information campaigns claiming otherwise. Perhaps with legislation employers can be forced not to consider mental-health history, however, we’ll never be able to force potential romantic partners to ignore it.
         
        So most young men will continue to self-medicate with booze and porn; as the social cost of doing so is lower than medicating with anti-depressants and/or therapy.
         
        It is illogical to think that an individual can think present ill-health and/or even death is a superior choice to potential shame and/or reduced future opportunities, however, that’s what mental illness does; it makes the individual think illogically.
         
        I believe that depression is a consequence of a confluence of poor lifestyle, circumstances (such as intense-stress, trauma etc.) and genetic predisposition. Much of this can be addressed through lifestyle changes and life plans without the need medical intervention. Therefore introducing lifestyle/dating/mental-health modules into the education curriculum, like a prophylactic, might pay more societal dividends than trying to de-stigmatize depression as it’s likely never to be fully de-stigmatized? I don’t know. I acknowledge I’m not a medical expert.

      3. 2.1.3
        jo

        Marika, yes. The one that creeped me out was Karl R trying to debate a man who was so angry because his gf wasn’t an ‘angel.’ Karl pointed out that no human was an angel so it was wrong to expect one, but that didn’t stop the angry ranter from wanting and expecting an angel anyway.

        Jeremy and Tom10, again great points. The one thing that still is a roadblock is – would men even recognize that their rage is the same thing as sadness or depression? Rage is so commonly accepted, sometimes perceived as manly, that they probably don’t question it, but see it as natural and justified. Therefore they wouldn’t recognize it as depression and would not seek treatment, even if there were no stigma against depression treatment.

      4. 2.1.4
        Persephone

        I will always be completely against legalized prostitution. There are too many negative dynamics.

        To add to the problem, society pushes  restrictions on who they want us to date or to marry. It hasn’t been that long ago that we got rid of miscegenation laws. Tongues wag if an older woman dates a younger man. We shouldn’t be narrowing people’s prospects like this. We should be taking a live-and-let-live attitude so that these young men wouldn’t feel so restricted on who is fair game for them to pair up with.

    2. 2.2
      WomenWantMore

      There are plenty of guy that have their shit together that can’t get sex. Even the guys in the top 10% have to jump through lots of hoops with attractive women. The bottom 30% of men can’t get sex at all. If these guys could get sex they would be a little happier. Prostitution would be a way these guys could get a woman to at least touch them.

      Even the ugliest women could get sex from someone BUT sex is not enough for them. Women also want a relationship AND 75% of women expect the guy to pay for that privilege.

      1. 2.2.1
        Michelle

        Of course women want more. We’re the ones who get pregnant and have to care for young children. Men can just walk away.

        And of course guys have to jump through hoops with attractive women. These women can get attention from any guy they want. Why would they be easy for men?

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Michelle

          And of course guys have to jump through hoops with attractive women. These women can get attention from any guy they want. Why would they be easy for men?

          Science does not back up your thesis. A woman usually does not find a man with a comparable level of attractiveness worthy of sex; however, she is likely to throw the rule book out of the window for a higher-value man.  My own person experience bears this one out.  In fact, women find a much smaller percentage of men attractive than vice versa.  This reality was not only proven by OKCupid Research. There is a scientific reason for women being very selective.  Without any other constraints, the female mind always seeks out the best genetics when a woman is considering a sex partner.  It has absolutely nothing to do with her own level of attractiveness. The cave woman within is thinking about the survival of her offspring. The evolutionary anthropologist Elizabeth Cashdan explained this phenomenon in gory detail.  What we we consider to be attractive are signs of genetic fitness for reproduction.  In the not too distant past, only the fittest men reproduced.  That is why we have the predictable primal triggers that we still have today. They are the result of only a small percentage of the male population having the right to breed.  Everything down to the size of the average male penis is the result of female preference.

          The reason why overweight women are not as penalized for being overweight as overweight men has to do with how most women deposit body fat (plus, women naturally have a higher percentage of body fat than men). Most women deposit fat in their buttocks, thighs, and breasts first, which is a healthy way to store fat.  On the other hand, men ten to store fat in their mid-section, which is an unhealthy way to store fat.  It is not until a woman’s abdomen starts to grow to the size of her hips that men find her unattractive, and the unattractiveness is due to the deposit of unhealthy fat.  That fat deposit signals that she is not a healthy breeding partner.  These primal instincts and cues control coupling until the day we take our last breath.

          As far as to the incels, these men are usually so unattractive to women that not even a woman who is a 1 would have sex with them.  One of the problems with the manosphere is that it promotes improving game, but game can only help a man who has met a woman’s baseline level of attractiveness.  For example, women state that confidence makes a man attractive, but that is lie.  Confidence is not a qualifier.  Confidence is a disqualifier.  Confidence will not make a man who has not reached a woman’s baseline level of attractiveness more attractive, but lack of it will kill a guy who does meet her baseline.

  3. 3
    Seek to learn

    Off-topic: Beloved Evan—you have Alex Jones readers who also read your work. Thank you.

    1. 3.1
      Rampiance

      I agree.  That “Alex Jones” remark struck me as particularly bizarre.

      1. 3.1.1
        Persephone

        I find Alex Jones particularly bizarre. I used to read his stuff for the entertainment value. But I always thought everybody else red Alex Jones for the same reason I did. I don’t want to turn this into an Alex Jones message board, but you guys don’t seriously believe that stuff, do you!?

  4. 4
    Vanessa

    This is an interesting topic, and has prompted me to write my very first comment on this blog after a few months of reading(side note: Evan, thank you so much for all you have posted on here; it has really helped change my way of thinking for the better).

    Evan said “Women rarely, if ever, murder strangers out of rage, but I have never heard of any woman wanting to destroy men because she can’t get laid.”

    Am I wrong in thinking that this may be due to the fact that women have much less of a problem getting laid than men do? It’s like that Seinfeld episode where Elaine stops having sex with her boyfriend. Jerry tells her, “for women, sex is like putting the garbage on the curb–you take it for granted that some guy in a jumpsuit’s going to come pick it up.” If it’s true men would sleep with someone they are “barely” attracted to, and women are the gatekeepers of sex, then if a woman shouldn’t have much issue(although she might have to lower her standards).

    Perhaps the Incels are what happens when a man’s biological impulses, the  sting of rejection, and this air of entitlement compound in the worst way.

    1. 4.1
      Noone45

      You’re wrong.  Plenty of women are too unattractive to land someone to sleep with. You likely are not friends with any of them so it’s something you overlook. As an unattractive woman,  I assure you not all women can easily get sex. Ugly men dont even want ugly women. Double standards abound lol.  I have no angst about the issue.

      1. 4.1.1
        Adrian

        Hello Noone45,

        I agree with Venessa, most women regardless of how they look can easily find a man that is willing to sleep with them.

        You say that you are unattractive but you also mentioned that you have a son, so that means that men have found you attractive; or at least were willing to have sex with you.

        I do think women and men that are unattractive struggle in finding relationships and sex with someone they want to have sex with yes. But as many women on this site have commented, women like men can have sex with someone they don’t want to be in a relationship with.

        1. Noone45

          I was married for 11 years. Nominally,  you may be correct, but in truth , my present state suggests otherwise. I suspect my exhusband settled on me because he wasn’t very good with women. I have a wandering eye and scars from acne, so I’m obviously not a 10. I’m smart though, fairly useless for a woman in relationships with men if truth be told. Even if I was hot, having an autistic child renders one’s attractiveness to zero. That’s life, we didnt choose our circumstances and we cant run from them.

          Oddly, I feel little emotion in writing any of that. Either way, both of you need to get outside of your social bubble.  I’ve met plenty of women who cant get laid. Wait till you meet the over 50 crowd.

        2. Adrian

          Hello Noone45,

          There is a difference between being realistic and being negative.

          I know there are unattractive men and women according to societal standards and yet most of them find someone who desires them.

          I’m not here to preach to you and I can’t say your experiences nor the women you speak of are women you know. But I can say that from what I  have seen from guys there is always a guy willing to have sex with a woman regardless of her looks.

          If it’s just sex you want there are tons of websites or chat rooms to join. Guys who are too embarrassed to be seen with an unattractive women in public; yet there are thousands still willing to have sex with one. But do you really want a guy like that?

          I think it’s better to try for a relationship. And that is were I agree with you that unattractive people struggle but it’s not hopeless. Try some of Evan’s services and products, maybe save up to invest in his one-on-one coaching.

          I see, hear and read about 50 year old women getting dates all the time.

        3. Noone45

          “Try some of Evan’s services and products, maybe save up to invest in his one-on-one coaching.”

          Lol no, see you admit it’s difficult for unattractive people to find partners, yet you overlook the largest issue – autistic child. That’s not something you just power through.

          Honestly, Americans have this mindset that every problem can be solved. That’s not how the world works. People would be better served to let go of what they can’t control instead of beating themselves up over it. I don’t hate myself for being ugly. I didn’t ask to be born and my unattractiveness doesn’t make me a bad person. I’m saying some of these incels should accept they may never get laid and it doesn’t mean they are worthless humans. Some people are lucky, some aren’t. I’ve chosen to let go of the need for sex and romantic love. It’s worked out ok for me. I’m happy and not stressed.

        4. Sandra

          @Adrian,

          I see, hear and read about 50 year old women getting dates all the time.

          This comment is hilarious ( and not in a good way). Sorry.

      2. 4.1.2
        Persephone

        Noone45, you need a pep talk.

        You appear to think that because you have acne scars and a  wandering eye, which I take to mean a crossed eye, that you are so ugly that no one will want you. You are taking the same attitude that the “incel” men take. Incel is a very specific culture.  I’ve gone to several of the blogs or message boards where they congregate, and they put up photos of themselves and ask other incel man how they can improve their appearance. They give tips such as better haircuts, and how to hold your jaw in such a way so that you look more like a “Chad.” There is some big thing among the incel community about doing neck exercises. It’s the craziest thing. Every one of these men who puts up a picture is absolutely perfect. They will be fairly attractive looking man, yet think they are so ugly. That tells us that it’s more about lack of self confidence.

        There are many people with one damaged eye who come from poor  places, because as children the flies have caused infections. I know a very pretty young lady from Guatemala who has such a circumstance. She makes up for it with beautiful hair, which she has style in such a way as to partially cover her eye. It makes her feel better, but her glowing smile overshadows her eye. And her husband obviously thinks she’s gorgeous. They have four children together. Even with her less than perfect eye, she can walk into a room and people will turn their heads, but she doesn’t believe that about herself. Even if she were absolutely perfect with two intact eyes she would not believe that about herself, because she’s been made to feel like she’s a stupid Mayan Indian, and inferior because of her bloodline. She doesn’t realize how beautiful she is for being from such a royal and amazing heritage. It’s only about her self-perception, rather than the reality of how others see her as being so beautiful.

        My beloved former partner who is now in Mexico had a barely noticeable eye problem. The only reason I noticed it is because I loved to stare at his beautiful face, with these incredible high cheekbones, beautiful tan skin, and amazing teeth. He was taught to believe that the color of his tan skin was terrible, because in Mexican Society people with white European blood have a higher social standing.  More importantly it was his facial expressions, and how his amazing character would show through in his face. He didn’t realize how beautiful he was. He thought he was just a stupid Aztec Nahuatl Indian, the bottom of the totem pole in Mexican Society, worthy of nothing. Personally I thought  his culture was amazing. This man who thought his culture was stupid  and worthy of nothing in modern society  gained so much self-confidence because I and my friends were amazed  and his culture. His ancient pre-columbian language is the  origin of word such as avocado  and chocolate that we use in English.

        There’s probably something just as fascinating about you, and your hobbies and the things you know about. You might think they’re dumb things, like my boyfriend did,  but then someone comes along that finds them so rare, beautiful, and amazing like a rare orchid. Maybe you’re like the rare Orchid  who doesn’t realize it’s beautiful, but thinks it’s ugly because it wants to look like a rose. You don’t realize it because you’re fixated on your eye, and on your acne scars.  There might be some physical features that you have that another person would find absolutely gorgeous, especially when you take into account that your face is meant to tell what your inner emotions and expressions are, rather than being just a fake porcelain mask of physical perfection. Just like with my former sweetheart, his imperfection made him all the more beautiful, and made his inner character shine through.

        So, just like the incel men, you have a distorted view of your physical appearance, and it’s holding you back.

         

        1. Noone45

          And you need discussion concerning empathy. You have read nothing I’ve said except what you wanted to see.

          My son is 7 and still potty training. He took a crap on my bed today. Do you know anyone who is going to sign up for that? Would you? I seriously doubt it. You can no idea what my life is like. You have no idea the isolation parents of disabled children face on a daily basis. I know no woman in my situation who has found a good relationship. Many have found horrid men who cheat, lie, abuse, and despitefully use. I prefer to be alone rather than subject a defenseless child to that.  Spouting Tony Robbins-Oprah positivity BS in the face of a situation like mine is demeaning. No, there isn’t hope. And that’s ok. I don’t blame anyone for this. No one asked to be born. The acknowledgement of this fact is the only way to truly come to grips with the suffering many of us will face in life. My feelings are valid, but I don’t get to behave badly because of what I feel.

          My route is different – I say many incels have valid insights into the human condition. Most humans are lookist. Most humans are superficial. We’re animals, that’s all. No, attractiveness is not arbitrary and there is plenty of scientific evidence to show what most humans find attractive. Attractive people get paid more, they are treated better, have more job opportunities, and even better healthcare outcomes. But we are going to pretend looks are arbitrary? I’d tell incels their feelings are valid, but their behaviors are not ok. That’s the difference here. One can have feelings, but they don’t get to hurt others because of what they feel.

          In truth, most people aren’t looking for an actual relationship. They want an amenable situation. Hell, considering how miserable most couples are, I should count myself lucky I will be excluded from their ranks.

           

        2. Adrian

          Hi Persephone,

          I always find conversations like these to be the most tricky.

          You want to acknowledge the struggles that people who is not considered by society as attractive but at the same time you want to encourage them. So telling them that they can get a model is unrealistic and patronizing but telling them they have no hope in finding someone attractive is also bad.

          Hmmm… then again who says they can’t find a model; I guess it’s more about not giving up than it is about looks.

        3. Persephone

          Noone45:

          If you are so negative on having relationship, then what is your purpose for being on Evan Marc Katz message board? His whole purpose is for providing support to women who want to be in a relationship and / or get married.

          Is your purpose to come here and talk us women all out of those silly things? I don’t get you, unless you just using this as a place to vent your frustrations.

          I don’t have an autistic child, so I can’t possibly tell you what it’s like to be in the shoes of someone who does. However I’m not completely insensitive to the matter, nor am I completely uneducated about it. I was raised by a pediatrician, and our family had other families that were our friends. Many of them were families who we got to know through his pediatric practice, from having children with autism, or some other affectation.

           

        4. Persephone

          Adrian, I hope you’re not thinking that I was saying that we all can land our own model. I went back and reread my post and I don’t see how you can read that into it. What I’m trying to make people understand is that there’s beauty to be found in everyone. You don’t have to look like Brooke Shields to be beautiful. Maybe you misunderstood because I put something in there about high cheekbones. It was more in reference  to the stereotypical look of high cheekbones with Native Americans, and he thought being an indigenous person with dark skin and  a weak eye made him inferior.  This reminds me of a photograph of a beautiful woman from Cuba. She appears to be about 70, with deep lines in her face from being out in the sun. I imagine her to have worked out in the fields most of her life. There’s a big cigar in her mouth, and it’s barely hanging on because she has a huge smile. Well, she was a model of sorts for that photograph.

        5. Noone45

          “I don’t get you”.

          Perhaps people are not things to be “gotten”. One of the hardest lessons in life is that you cant truly know anyone. You don’t know me and you cant know what it’s like to live my life. Some stories don’t have happy endings, mine doesn’t. That’s life. Life is not fair and rarely of ever rewards good behavior. I’m not here to convince women not to get in relationships.  I just stated a reality of the world. If you look at the data, most people in ltr’s rate their relationship as less than satisfactory.  Even evan had a blog post on that fact. I come here for the same reason people go to movies or go to the zoo- It amuses me.

          My whole point on this subject is simple – the pain these people are experiencing is real and valid. Perhaps its mental illness that needs treatment, but that pain is still real. One can say their behavior is wrong,  but you can’t say their feelings are invalid.

        6. Vanessa

          Noone45, I won’t pretend to know what it’s like to raise a disabled child, but i have to politefully disagree when you say it takes your attractiveness down to zero.

          While it is important to be realistic and in touch with reality, you also can shape how your reality is by the way you view things. Yes, many lesser men may balk at the thought of a disabled child, but you have to look at the brighter side of things: You are a CARING enough person to patiently care for your son. You are NURTURING(as most moms are), and that is a very POSITIVE and attractive things for most men. I think you’re sealing your own fate when your writing yourself off as unattractive. As long as you see yourself and your parenting situation in that way, nobody else will see any different. We can’t expect anyone to see what we don’t see in ourselves.

          Instead, you can view your life as, ” I am a strong, intelligent, caring person who has overcome a number of struggles. The right person will appreciate all these aspects of myself.” I know that may sound like a “special star pep talk” but why go through life feeling pessimistic and unattractive, when you can spend time finding the beauty and good in things?

          I wish you and your son all the best.

        7. Adrian

          Hi Persephone,

          I was speaking in general terms. I meant that this subject is tricky because a person does not want to discourage nor does a person want to be unrealistic

        8. Persephone

           

          @Noone45, 

          I loved what you wrote when you said,

          “My whole point on this subject is simple – the pain these people are experiencing is real and valid. Perhaps its mental illness that needs treatment, but that pain is still real. One can say their behavior is wrong,  but you can’t say their feelings are invalid.”

          Yes, I agree with you. And I truly hate to see people who have such pain. I, also, have experienced great internal pain in my life. I went through more than my fair share of traumatic events as a child, which I was able to pull through as a decent adult because as a younger child I was permitted to gain self confidence.

          However, there is a saying that is appropriate here. The plant that you water is the one that grows.

          I don’t know if you’re comfortable with me telling you this, but may God bless you and give you strength and comfort through your trials.

           

  5. 5
    Adrian

    Hi Jeremy,

    The article stated, “Women are socialized from childhood to blame themselves if they feel undesirable, to believe that they will be unacceptable unless they spend time and money and mental effort being pretty and amenable and appealing to men

    What are your thoughts on this statement?

    Now I don’t want to take away anything from what Evan is trying to say about this terrorist group but this statement really stood out to me.

    I have hung around the majority of males all my life and I can assure you that most of us (at least in my circle) DO blame ourselves if we are generally considered undesirable by the opposite sex. Everything from hitting the gym more, to paying ridiculous amounts of money for clothes, cologne, a haircut, cars, and even getting surgery. I have also noticed that most guys (or the guys I’ve been around) don’t always talk about their feelings outwardly much when it comes to how they see themselves not being worthy of the opposite sex but they say it in a LOT of subtle ways. I have noticed many guys say things like if I only looked as good as, or if I was only as tall as, If I only had a body like, if I was only born as rich as… I would be getting girls attention.

    So do you think it’s just my little bubble that thinks like this? I always assumed it was a human thing but everywhere you go people seem to believe that only young girls and women struggle with living up to the beauty standards, while young boys (who absorb the same media and see all those hot women dating and having sex with equally hot guys) and men just assume that since he has a penis he deserves the next Ms Universe winner regardless of how he looks.

    Hmmm… or could it be because women mistake men’s boldness to approach and willingness to be rejected as some kind of indication that men don’t internalize how the opposite sees them?

    1. 5.1
      Persephone

      Adrian, what you wrote is really big. Not a lot of said about this. Yours was a great post about how many adolescent boys feel unworthy. We forget that it happens to boys, too, and not just girls. A lot of attention has been given to girls, such as articles in teen girls magazines about anorexia. This makes me think that maybe we haven’t given enough attention to the boys. We did away with PE programs as a requirement in the schools. I think that’s harmful to both genders. Sports are vital to body awareness.

      1. 5.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Persephone,

        Yes I think we (Americans) have not learned how to acknowledge the struggles of one side without completely dismissing the feelings of the other side.

        Men have self-esteem issues dealing with their physical appearance just like women do. It reminds me of an old Michael Jackson song where he said, “but they told me a man should be faithful, walk when not able, and fight till the end… but Im only human.” Men are looked down upon as not being real men or strong if they openly talk about things that are considered weak like insecurities and self-esteem issues.

        Which I find interesting because men are taught for years to not talk about their feelings but once they enter a relationship they are condemned for doing what they have been taught and conditioned to do for years.

        1. Persephone

          Adrian:

          “… because men are taught for years to not talk about their feelings but once they enter a relationship they are condemned for doing what they have been taught and conditioned to do for years.”

          Yes! Again, you are spot-on.

          This is one reason I hate trying to make boys conform to the gender stereotype. There are many little boys who wanted something that was princess themed, but one parent, the famous singer Adele, actually talked about the time she let her son wear a Princess Anna costume. She didn’t pressure him into that role, or purposely “try to feminize him.” It’s better to let children find their own way on things like this. He was quite young at the time.

          I can remember when I was a small child I would have been absolutely horrified if my parents had tried to force me to have pink princess themed everything, and I apparently turned out fine. I wanted cowboy suits and Indian costumes, and I even made my own bow and arrow, and yet no one would mistake me for anything but all female today. We lived out in the country, and had this big two-story barn with a place to throw hay down to the barnyard from the upper story. I would make my mom put a towel cape on me with a safety pin on my neck. When I jumped from the top story to the bottom so that I can fly with my cape, I hit the bottom, and the safety pin popped open and poked my neck. My mom was  in horror when she got home from work and found out I had jumped 10 ft to the ground,  but it was safe because there was a huge pile of hay at the bottom.  Nobody told me that I wasn’t acting like a proper young lady, or that this was something only boys were supposed to do. My mother didn’t sit around with other mother saying, “Boys are different.” My mother let me be who I wanted to be. As a result, I ended up with self-confidence as an adult.

  6. 6
    Gala

    Jeremy has the correct idea… incel movement is what we get when “excess” men stop being killed off in wars and women can earn their own living. Rulers of all times knew that unattached men are gonna be a problem – and this now is exactly why.

    1. 6.1
      Persephone

      I so disagree with Gala about this. If “incel” men actually got out in the real world instead of being holed up in dark rooms then they wouldn’t be incel men. They would be warriors, with self-confidence. Incel men lack any self-confidence at all  so that they glorify Warriors as the exact men that they want to be, and they fantasize about getting out in the non virtual world and taking by force the things that they want. It’s not that they are excess. Is that they don’t understand the non virtual world.

    2. 6.2
      Persephone

      Gala: So you’re saying that it’s a problem that we women are now allowed to work? No, I’m not buying it. Just because we work doesn’t mean we don’t want a husband. But we don’t want basement-dwelling husbands who the only life they know is playing video games or congregating in chat rooms.

      Please don’t tell me your solution is to stop letting women have jobs, and to go back to the days where wars are done with boots on the ground. The results of that will be excess of women.

  7. 7
    Olongapo

    The metrics of how young men come to the decision point are known.  These include; Access to weapons, mental illness, perhaps video games, social isolation, etc.  The “why” in greater society is the elephant in the room.  Gala nailed it.

    Men have always been disposable and when you realize this, you despair. How you act then with this knowledge is what determines your fate.

    In addition, getting married, having a family, working to support that family, has always been something that most guys wanted.  It gives them a purpose.  It gives their lives meaning and now for most young men, the proscribed societal expectations are gone. The expectations for women to marry early and bear children no longer exist. A lot of these young men who have been labeled “incel” simply can’t, or won’t, complete in the sexual marketplace where women in their age group can simply swipe right or left on a photo and get sex.

    Sex is always simmering in the background and up until recently, access to sex was one of the big reasons to get married.  Everything has changed without taking these things into consideration.  Young men will strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in a shopping mall for the promise of sex in the afterlife.  As a group, their frustration of not having a purpose (and easy sex in marriage) can be used to create movements that are destructive. They then become cannon fodder.

    The challenge here is to not rail against women for being women, but to better themselves.  Some guys find the manosphere and get to work and some don’t.

    One obvious solution is to teach young men how to be men again.  Fathers, uncles, etc. had been the traditional sources of this education but perhaps non-traditional resources need to be tapped into to educate them on basic life and problem-solving skills, stoicism, honor, friendship, how to throw a baseball and to fight, how to attract women through understanding female nature, how to swing a hammer or fix a car, and most importantly, how to create and maintain their own agency in a world that values and enforces things that are contrary to masculine nature.

    We don’t teach young men how to navigate in a confusing world anymore.

    These shooters have some common themes running in their lives but the universal one is the lack of positive male guidance. Who is responsible for this?

    This is a condition.  There was a time when even the nerdiest guy in high school could at some point, expect to get married.

    The brutal fact is that “incels” need to get off their butts, quit playing video games and smoking reefer, and do it for themselves.

     

    1. 7.1
      jo

      Olangapo, these are great points. The one thing I would question is why men feel more disposable than women. Technically we should all feel disposable, right? The world doesn’t need more people, and maybe our jobs do some good service and a few people love us, but every person on this earth uses up resources and leaves a carbon footprint. Absolutely no one is really needed, just like no one misses an extra deer.

      That is why I wondered about Gala referring to men as excess. They are no more excess than women are, since females (broadly among all animals) are considered ‘useful’ for breeding. But like I said, the world doesn’t need more people, therefore doesn’t need relatively more of the source of breeding. In modern life, no one sex is more useful or useless than the other, so no one sex should feel more desperate.

      1. 7.1.1
        Tom10

        @ jo
        “The one thing I would question is why men feel more disposable than women. Technically we should all feel disposable, right?” 
         
        Not quite.
         
        Men can impregnate multiple women simultaneously whereas women can only be impregnated by one man at a time (let’s ignore superfecundation for the sake of argument); therefore, by extrapolation, the best guys can/will impregnate all the women and the lowest-quality men impregnate none; they become incels.
         
        Which, I assume, is what happened prior to the advent of civilisation and socially enforced monogamy.
         
        Indeed, now that I think of it, the general societal push from church and state towards monogamy and prioritizing the nuclear family unit over other forms of romantic relations, was likely invented to quell violence from frustrated single men and redistribute mating rights. A kind of dating socialism I guess. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Indeed, polygamous marriage is still illegal (in Western countries at least) so it could be argued the state is still complicit in enforcing monogamy on the population at large.
         
        Now we’ve gone full-circle and going back to how things were in the wild: the winner simply take it all, the loser has to fall, it’s simple and it’s plain…lol.

        1. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Indeed, now that I think of it, the general societal push from church and state towards monogamy and prioritizing the nuclear family unit over other forms of romantic relations, was likely invented to quell violence from frustrated single men and redistribute mating rights. 

          Most of the major institutions of society were created to organize us (family), tell us how to live (church) and tire us out (work) so that we don’t think about our daily existence. Work is the most damaging of them all — it sucks the life out of you.

        2. Olongapo

          @Jo……I have to agree with Tom10.  Just understand that rationality is not the primary driver of human activity.  Procreation is.  Self-awareness is a relatively new phenomenon and requires are lot of hard work.  Most men and women don’t know why they do what they do.  When women will only consider the top 20% of men for sex in a totally free market with all possible consequences removed, the remaining 80% of the men who do not generate the tingles necessary for desire sex have got to make a decision; Get better and add value to move themselves into that top 20% or do something else. It’s that “something else” that’s vexing.

        3. jo

          Tom10, how can we not love someone who quotes ABBA while calling monogamy ‘dating socialism’. 🙂 I agree with you: monogamy was probably instituted for that reason and instead of benefiting women as we’re led to believe, monogamy benefits men more.

          But again, today, no one sex is more disposable if the mark of ‘usefulness’ is getting someone pregnant, since we have birth control. So I’m not sure your point about impregnating women as the mark of a useful man makes the case. Unless what you are saying is that we still run by old instincts, and a man’s proxy for usefulness is if he has sex and/or is married. And because fewer people are getting married young or at all, more young men feel useless now.

          Of course, the current incel problem isn’t just about that, but other factors raised by posters here. Anyway, I agree with your earlier point about legalizing prostitution. Not only could that help reduce incels, it could put policies into place that look into how women become prostitutes or sex slaves (often horrible situations) and care for them better. Maybe manual labor is another way to channel excess energy from young men that could otherwise result in violence.

        4. shaukat

          @Tom, Which, I assume, is what happened prior to the advent of civilisation and socially enforced monogamy.

          Some parts of this theory are accurate, but much of it is also based on mythology. First, prior to the advent of civilization, humans were organized in nomadic hunter gatherer societies, in which mating was facilitated through arranged relations by elders within the tribe (we can deduce this based on the practices of the few hunter gatherer tribes which still exist, untouched by modernity). The Hobbesian state of nature you allude to never really existed in a pure form.

          Secondly, there is some controversy as to whether homo-sapiens are naturally monogamous or not. But, leaving that aside, monogamy and marriage were largely constructs designed to facilitate the transmission of property rights from one generation to the next, not to redistribute sex. Under feudalism, for example, property and territorial expansion were mainly advanced through arranged marriages.

          Finally, I don’t believe traditional courtship behavior would help many of these men who lack options and are incels. Patriarchy literally meant the ‘rule of the fathers,’ and during these periods male family members would evaluate prospective suitors based on metrics such as class, status, stability, and access to resources. Most incels are basement dwellers with few job prospects and severe mental issues as you pointed out. In fact, the hook up culture provides them with abetter opportunity to get laid, since women can now make their own decisions based on attraction, but that would require them to look inward and embrace self-improvement, which many are incapable of doing.

        5. Persephone

          Tom10, we don’t live in a society with polygamy. And there are roughly 50% of each gender, give or take a few points, which should mean there are both plenty of each to go around. I’m not aware that there’s more homosexuality in one gender than there is another. The idea that there aren’t enough women to go around is a fiction perpetuating by the incels, who claim that “Chad” gets them all. At the beginning of your post you’re giving the Chad  argument. The poor Chads of the world are merely scapegoats. You’re making excuses for men who  mostly just have mental or psychological disorders, and a great deal of social anxiety as a result.

          In your argument, you have forgotten that women are biologically programmed to want a man who is also likely to stay the distance. Reproduction is about more than copulation. If you’re going to put it down to just natural instinct like we’re still in caveman state, women want men who will help raise the child, and stay with her when she’s in the very vulnerable state right after childbirth, and during lactation. It’s for the good of raising children to impose monogamy. Even if humans were just a bunch of pagans beating drums in front of a fire without a church.

           

        6. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Most of the major institutions of society were created to organize us (family), tell us how to live (church) and tire us out (work) so that we don’t think about our daily existence.
           
          Ha, Debbie Downer today Emily! One of my friends has a motto: “life is sh*t, then you die” which I think is just hilarious.
           
          Agreed that our societal institutions were largely created to organize and control us, however, I think they add to our daily existence rather than force us to forget about it. On balance I think their pros outweigh their cons; otherwise we’d have, literally, anarchy. And I say that as a devout libertarian.
           
          “Work is the most damaging of them all — it sucks the life out of you”
           
          I disagree. I think work is good for people (certainly men) and gives them purpose; when I look back at the times I was happiest in life it was often at the end of a gruelling 80-hour week where the team successfully finished a project. I become restless, unmotivated and lazy when not working.
           
           jo
          Haha, I secretly love ABBA; such catchy sing-a-long tunes. Shush though; don’t tell any of my friends. 😉
           
          “But again, today, no one sex is more disposable if the mark of ‘usefulness’ is getting someone pregnant, since we have birth control. So I’m not sure your point about impregnating women as the mark of a useful man makes the case. Unless what you are saying is that we still run by old instincts, and a man’s proxy for usefulness is if he has sex and/or is married”
           
          Right. As Olongapo said, I believe that despite the invention of birth control and its subsequent ramifications our dating decisions are largely made from instinct, therefore, rightly or wrongly, young men often gauge their “usefulness” by how much women want them/don’t want them.
           
          “Maybe manual labor is another way to channel excess energy from young men that could otherwise result in violence.”
           
          Agreed. Or sports.
           
          @ shaukat
          Good comment; I don’t disagree with anything you wrote.
           
          @ Persephone
          “we don’t live in a society with polygamy”. 
           
          We supposedly live in a free society though, don’t we? So surely it should be up to each individual to live their dating/marriage lives according to how they wish?
           
          So *why* does government in a free society ban polygamous marriage and enforce it through the threat of imprisonment for bigamy?
           
          “And there are roughly 50% of each gender, give or take a few points, which should mean there are both plenty of each to go around. I’m not aware that there’s more homosexuality in one gender than there is another.” 
           
          Depends on age. As far as I’m aware there are more young men than women, but there are more older women than men.
           
          “I’m not aware that there’s more homosexuality in one gender than there is another”
           
          There are roughly twice as many gay men as there are gay women; however, one would think that this is a boon to incels as that means there are more straight women left for them.
           
          “At the beginning of your post you’re giving the Chad  argument. The poor Chads of the world are merely scapegoats. You’re making excuses for men who  mostly just have mental or psychological disorders, and a great deal of social anxiety as a result.”
           
          Well I’d say there is some truth in the notion that conventionally good-looking guys find it easier to have sex, no? However, point taken; I agree that these guys have mental issues nothing to do with their looks and I’m certainly not blaming the Chads who are simply living their lives.
           
          The irony is that Elliot Rodger was actually a very good-looking kid and Alek Minassian wasn’t exactly ugly; they both clearly had severe mental illness though, and no doubt women picked up on that instantly.
           
          “In your argument, you have forgotten that women are biologically programmed to want a man who is also likely to stay the distance. 
           
          At the age violent incels are at I’d argue that their female peers don’t necessarily seek men who are likely to stay the distance as they’re not yet at a stage in life to prioritize that characteristic. Also many young women won’t have learned the skill required in identifying which men are likely to stay the distance and which aren’t; they only learn this skill from experience which comes with age.

        7. Emily, the original

          Tom10, 

          otherwise we’d have, literally, anarchy

          It’d be discos and unlimited porkopolis! What more do you want in life?  🙂 when I look back at the times I was happiest in life it was often at the end of a gruelling 80-hour week where the team successfully finished a project. 

          The happiest times in my life we’re in my 20s, with a group of friends I felt connected to, where were all in the same place in terms of what we valued (peers), and going out and hanging out at the clubs! Maybe going to class and reading a little Oscar Wilde. Going out again.  🙂 We’re not meant to work as much as we do. There’s supposed to be some sense of joy and fun in life. As for the jobs themselves, I’ve spent my life tying to find that job that remains challenging over time, where I feel valued and properly compensated. It doesn’t exist. I have come to the conclusion that, if I want to feel a sense of accomplishment, it will have to come from something I create totally on my own (thus the side hustle).

  8. 8
    hellothar

    I’m a woman, a 36 year old virgin, and actually identify as “involuntarily celibate”, ie, Incel.  That definition of men only is incorrect.  I dearly want to have sex (as well as an exclusive, and at some point, long-term relationship) with a man who desires me, like, actually me, not just my plumbing.  I have not ever found anyone that wanted to have sex with me in a reasonable situation, nor a relationship.  Ie, not one where the guy was very drunk, or wanted to get in my pants the first time we met and then when that was too fast for me, split (coz they just wanted to hit it and quit it), or married, etc.

    These people who are acting with complete lack of empathy and cruelty really give the whole thing a terrible perspective.  Because there are other people out there who are just trying to figure all this out, doing what we can to work on ourselves to get that outcome in a healthy way, and then if someone finds out you are at this level of (non) experience, it takes that much more for people not to say you have “red flags”.  It’s already hard enough to find someone who can accept this, without being associated with crazies.  Just wanted to throw my two cents in there.  There’s not many of us out there I know, but we are there.

  9. 9
    Persephone

    Out of curiosity I went to the website / Message Board called lookism.net. It disgusted me. It made me think that perhaps we should be limiting the amount of time that children should spend online.

    The term “incel” doesn’t mean just anybody who can’t get some. It has a particular meaning that goes to a particular culture–very disgusting culture. These people seem mentally disturbed, and they are the product extreme use of the internet. They need to be forced to go outside in the sunshine, or to work for the summer on a farm, throwing hay. They need to be forced to join soccer teams starting at age 3, so that they learn the merits to being physical, and having at least a nominal focus on athleticism. Online incel culture is what happens when people totally detach themselves from the physical world. They come to idealize it in a very distorted manner.

  10. 10
    Jennifer

    I think a big part of the problem isn’t that there isn’t enough sex for single men, it’s that there’s too much of it. We live in the midst of the most sex-saturated times in recent history, and sex has never before been so free and easy to get. Women have lowered the bar so much, because of advanced contraception, that men need only to step over it. The barriers to sex are no longer there as much; and widespread Internet porn fuels the fantasy of there being an abundance of beautiful young women who want nothing more than a carefree roll in the hay.

    When women, by and large, stopped requiring commitment, engagement and marriage before having sex, the standards for men they chose to do it with dropped. It also had a poor effect on men, since if they didn’t have to prove themselves worthy to get any, why go through all the effort of maintaining their bodies, getting a good job and pursuing a good woman for marriage in order to get laid?

    I also blame the sexual revolution, abortion on demand, and the general rise in the attitude of entitlement many young adults have cultivated through this culture of convenience. Kids today are being told that they’re all “special” and “perfect” the way they are, and that they don’t need to change, and that they deserve the best no matter what. Nobody is being told that they have to work at anything to succeed, they should just be rewarded because they’re so awesome. Then it’s a rude awakening to find out as an adult that you don’t just get a trophy for showing up.

    Lastly, I think that the idea of manliness in society has eroded down so far that sexual prowess and more specifically, number of sex partners has become the only marker for “true” manhood. We’ve tried to erase so many gender lines, told little boys that their boyish behavior must be stamped out with discipline and medication, and raised so many little boys without fathers, that young men have no idea how to be a man without sex.

    1. 10.1
      Persephone

      What you have just posted, Jennifer, is basically the “About Us” section for the evangelicals and the Christian conservative movement. It’s basically a memorized cliche speech so that the prayer warriors can participate in culture wars.

      1. 10.1.1
        Olongapo

        @Persephone.

        I disagree.  I believe that Jennifer is not necessarily parroted Christian conservative dogma nor do I believe she’s wrong.  Having raised both sons and daughters, I have witnessed the cultural pressures to feminize boys not only in the classroom but even by their own mothers.  The girls were constantly given the message to “have everything” and the result is grandchildren with multiple dads without the benefit of a stable marriage.  A couple of these sperm donors are completely deadbeat so go figure. Yes, they’re professionals.  Yes, they’re financially independent and seemingly happy but I wonder…..

        Women can indeed, “Have it all” but IMHO, very little of it is quality. You can’t argue with biology however.

        1. Persephone

          @Olongapo, what you are describing is the opposite end of the extreme. Most people are going to be somewhere in the middle.

          When I was young, I was taught that  conservative religious Dogma. I saved myself for marriage just as Jennifer seems to believe that young lady should. I felt so cheated. My college classmates were all out having fun. To add to it, I was painfully shy. I had not lived life by the time I got married, and I really didn’t know what I wanted in a husband. While I had been a virgin for my husband, I found out his debauchery. He was having a grand old time while leaving me at home alone. My female friends in college all got happy marriages because by the time they chose a husband they knew what they wanted. I felt so cheated by “saving myself.”

          @Jennifer. I do not like aspects of Christian conservatism, one being that they seem to  have an unhealthy view of forcing gender stereotypes on boys and girls. This is what I compare Jennifer supposed to this particular culture. We have seen that stereotypes being forced on both genders is harmful to children, with lifelong consequences. It always is accompanied by unhealthy ideas of patriarchy. Boys are allowed to be strong and independent, while  girls are taught that their sexuality must be protected.

          There is a film film, The Mask You Live In, which explores the confining stereotypes that boys are exposed to as they become men. There are consequences to both boys and girls when they are required to conform to gender stereotypes. As to boys, gender stereotypes cause:

          Engaging in physical violence to a much greater extent than girls
          Dying more  frequently from unintentional injuries
          Being more prone to substance abuse and suicide
          Having a shorter life expectancy than women
          Men commit 79 percent of all suicides in the United States. 

           

      2. 10.1.2
        sylvana

        @Persephone

        This!

    2. 10.2
      sylvana

      @Jennifer,

      Ever heard of the Roman Empire? Hedonism at its best. Birth control methods (although ridiculously ineffective) have been recorded in times of Ancient Egypt. Why do you think that is?

      And you do realize that prostitution has just recently become illegal, right? About 100 years ago. And only in a few countries, since it actually is still legal in most of the world.

      So what is the timeframe where sex was scarce that you are actually referring to?

  11. 11
    Olongapo

    One last thing:  Tarring “Incels” with the brush of terrorism or calling them crazy is kind’ve like calling all Christians crazy because of Timothy McVeigh or the hate speech of Franklin Graham.  What drives people crazy is that they exist and most are probably pretty frustrated and voice their opinions on the internet.  They’re agitating and not staying on the reservation.  They don’t know their place. Correct?

    1. 11.1
      Persephone

      Olongapo:

      “Tarring “Incels” with the brush of terrorism or calling them crazy is kind’ve like calling all Christians crazy because of Timothy McVeigh or the hate speech of Franklin Graham.”

      Maybe we should get our definitions to coincide. In my opinion for the purposes of this thread, Incel means a particular community of people, with common beliefs, themes, gathering places, methods and interests binding them together. They know they can’t measure up to the standard of being a Chad, yet they all want to have sex with a Stacy. Nevermind the fact that they’re  basement dwellers , with pasty white skin.  They think of Stacy should all  give into them, while a pasty white basement-dwelling female just like them would not be good enough. They also are very particular, and want Swedish type women, especially the ones who look like Brooke Shields when she was a small girl.  Anything less than that will be rejected, therefor the entire female gender is no good. I would not use that term for someone who just can’t get laid.  Those kind of people would be called normies.

      https://incels.me/

      They talk a lot about jaw surgery, and how to hold their jaw a certain way to look more like a Chad. There is sex game advertising. Every. Single. One. of their posts is cray cray. If someone does not dwell in these dark corners of the internet, they might not be getting sex, but they’re not an incel, either. In order to be a part of them, you also have to be a white supremacist, who also believes in male supremacy.

      The Southern Poverty Law Center says about info communities:

      Male supremacy was fundamental to the foundation of the racist “alt-right,” and in many ways served as its “gateway drug.” It is characterized by angry rants blaming feminism for the decline of Western civilization and deriding feminists as “Social Justice Warriors.” 

      They called for October to be renamed the “Bash-A-Violent-Bitch Month.” They  advocated for the legalization of rape on private property (then claiming unconvincingly it was satire) and wrote that the path to saving Western civilization is repealing women’s suffrage.

      This is a homogeneous community. It’s not a fair comparison with Christianity. They are crazy. They are terrorists. Every last one of them. You don’t have to be an incel to be someone that can’t get sex. That’s not what it means. It’s a narrow definition.

       

      1. 11.1.1
        sylvana

        @ Persephone,

        you nailed it on the head. These “incels” are straight up mentally sick people. Not much different from serial killer personalities. Lacking any and all empathy.

        There are likely tens of thousands, if not more, men in the same boat who would never display the same type of behavior.

      2. 11.1.2
        O

        @Persephone

        This has certainly got you activated.  I concede: You’re right and I’m wrong.

        1. Persephone

          O, don’t get me started on Sovereign citizens and other “Lost Causers” who want to revive the Southern Confederacy. However I probably prefer them to Incels.

  12. 12
    MilkyMae

    I don’t understand why so many feel women can get sex easily.  Especially women.  Easily obtained sex for women is not only unfulfilling but its also dangerous.  If I was on a college campus or frat party with more young men than women, I could probably find a sex partner.  I could go to a local tavern flirt with a drunk.  If I went on pof or tinder and showed some skin, I might find a sex partner if he actually showed up.  If stood on a corner with my rear hanging out of my dress, I might find a horny man.  If I smiled and asked a man who was checking me out out the gym, I might get find a man to sleep with.  However, these are bad options for women.  I could be raped, robbed, stalked, rejected, disrespected, contract AIDS, get pregnant, wreck a home if he’s married…  I might destroy my reputation and make future relationships more difficult.  If I gave myself a goal of getting laid in the next three weeks, I don’t know if I would be successful.  Either way, I probably would NOT feel good about myself.   I would feel ugly and desperate and if the man disappeared, I would feel even worse. I have trouble flirting with men so asking for something more is almost impossible.

    The only reliable way for women to get SAFE and consistent coital satisfaction is by having relationship with a man.  Fostering a relationship with a man is a crucial step for women and its not easy for some.  If it was, then this EMK and the rest of us would writing about something else. When you are in a relationship, both you and your man will a relatively easy access to sex.  The women have it easy argument doesn’t hold much weight.

    I think some of these dirtbag men who can get any action think that women are dating and humping the town. This is rarely the case but women don’t seem to want to dispel this myth. I sometimes think men are being honest about themselves but women use the “other women but not me” argument when easy sex is really horrible option.

    1. 12.1
      SparklingEmerald

      The problem with men complaining about how easily women can get sex, is that most of the sex women can get isn’t the kind of sex many women want.  For a woman who wants to be happily married, the fact that she could easily find a one night stand is of no comfort  or value to her if she only desires sex inside a loving relationship.

      1. 12.1.1
        Persephone

        Hi, sparkling Emerald.

        The problem with men complaining about how easily women can get sex, is that most of the sex women can get isn’t the kind of sex many women want.  

        You would never convince an Incel of that. Their belief is that  Stacy can easily get  quick sex, and that she wants nothing more than a “penis merry go round”.   It’s a commonly discussed theme. The root of the insult resentment is that there’s just a handful of guys that get all the sex they want, leaving everyone else without. So not only do they represent the entire female gender, but they resent Chad, also.

        I knew a guy they would call a Chad. (My ex.) He was six foot two, and worked hard to build himself up at the gym. He had luxurious black hair down to his shoulders. When he would go to the clubs, other guys wanted to beat him up. It was the craziest thing. Then I had another friend who  was six foot tall  with glossy blonde hair  and bright blue eyes. They threatened the same thing with him. Contrast that to women together in an office. They might get seriously catty to the new girl with the perfect figure, but they’re not going to drag her out back behind the building and beat her up.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Persephone,

           Contrast that to women together in an office. They might get seriously catty to the new girl with the perfect figure, but they’re not going to drag her out back behind the building and beat her up.

          Have you ever been the woman who is excluded? I have, and not for a few a few weeks or even months but years, and the only time these other women talk to you is if they want something or if they are digging for gossip about your life. I’ve heard men say when they fight each other, they fight once, beat each other up, and then it’s done. They’re not dragging it out for eons of time. Seems like a better strategy. (I’m certainly not implying all women behave in that matter, but some do, and they can be very mean.)

        2. Persephone

          @Emily,

          Yes, I have been the one who is excluded. It would break your heart if you heard my story. 

          I can’t imagine women doing the following. I can’t find any examples of it.

          Before Incel hero Alek Minassian, 25, rented a van struck pedestrians in the city, and killing 10 and injuring 15, he wrote, “The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!” 
           
          Here is what the man is like who is idealized by his many fans in the incel community. Before killing  six people in a stabbing and shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, in May 2014, Elliot Rodger posted a video to  YouTube with him sitting in a BMW car his family had given him and complained about being a virgin at 22, in spite of his life of privilege and relative affluence. In the video, Rodger specified that he planned to target the Alpha Phi sorority whose members he had deemed the “hottest” at his college, “the kind of girls I’ve always desired but was never able to have”. He stated that he was the one who was the victim in all of this. 
           
          What was the response in the Incel community to the deaths by Elliot Rodger and by Alek Minassian? An incel wrote, “I will have one celebratory beer for every victim that turns out to be a young woman between 18-35.” 
           
          I hate the lingo that they use. They’re the ones that talk about the “manosphere” ( a word I hate) and “red pill”,  or “blue pill”. Now they started something called the “black pill”. 
           
          I just don’t know of anything comprable that women do. Even the cattiness in an office setting, which can be pretty brutal. When it happened to me, it served as a trigger for the PTSD I had from my childhood trauma. I wasn’t able to sleep through the night. I would wake up at 3 a.m. crying, and not really know why. But at least those women didn’t gun me down in cold blood. I’m sure in some ways they wanted to blame me for all sorts of misperceived wrongs, but they never carried through with my murder.

        3. Emily, the original

          Persephone,

          I just don’t know of anything comprable that women do. Even the cattiness in an office setting, which can be pretty brutal. When it happened to me, it served as a trigger for the PTSD I had from my childhood trauma. I wasn’t able to sleep through the night. I would wake up at 3 a.m. crying, and not really know why. But at least those women didn’t gun me down in cold blood. 

          I’m sorry you had to go through that. I’ve been on the outside of a clique of women at work, and it was brutal. My natural response, after trying to be pleasant for months, was to start saying and doing things to really make it obvious I was NOT one of them. You think I’m strange? Wait to you see how strange I can be! But in terms of men, I wasn’t so much writing about incels as the average guy who might get into a fight with a buddy and throw some punches around and then be done with the argument and never bother about it again.

      2. 12.1.2
        S. (with a period)

        The problem with men complaining about how easily women can get sex, is that most of the sex women can get isn’t the kind of sex many women want.

        This.

        It’s interesting.  These guys make it sound like they want any kind of sex with the particular woman they want.  But other men say that they aren’t like this and they want the same kind of things women want in sex.

        It’s good to differentiate.  Men aren’t a monolith and I would like to believe the incel men are a very small slice of the population. A lot of men want sex, but I don’t believe so many men are willing to commit violence about it. I could be wrong though.  The kind of incel I’m thinking of is the Elliot Rodger type.  I read his manifesto.  I will say in his case things went wrong in his childhood, particularly his parents’ divorce. They didn’t really understand how that shattered his faith in them and the world. (At least from him point of view.) A shattering never to be repaired.  And then years later puberty hit.  And all that brokenness and rage turned against women.  Who when interviewed barely remembered him.

        I don’t know if incels are like him, but I do want to believe men like him are few.  I don’t know, though.  I could be wrong.

  13. 13
    SSJ4Gogeta

    It’s interesting seeing these incel discussions since it becomes a bit confusing who actually is an incel? Those who self-identify? Those who are can’t get sex at all? Those who want sex with someone who actually “desires” them?

    The way I see it, the only way a person can be an incel is if they can’t hire a sex worker to have sex with. So perhaps an extremely poor person who can’t get sex (obviously without “rape”) without money are incels. Otherwise, people need to just accept that sex and relationships isn’t for them and move on to other pursuits of happiness or keep trying.

    Mental problems? Find a doctor who can refer them to a therapist to get some mental health treatment.

  14. 14
    Emily, the original

    Jeremy,

    Are you out there? I’ve been reading “The Post-Birthday World.” I love it! It’s so well-written.

      1. 14.1.1
        Emily, the original

        It’s very good. I’m only about 60 pages in so far, but the part where the author describes Irina’s lust for the snooker player … it’s dead on the money. The author has lived it!   🙂

    1. 14.2
      Jeremy

      LOL, I thought you’d like it.  And I understand why you do, why Evan recommended it for so many of his readers who suffer from the same challenges.  Do you get why it didn’t speak to me, though?  The challenges each of us have differ systematically.

      1. 14.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Jeremy,  

        Do you get why it didn’t speak to me, though? 

        Yes, because you are the most circumspect person on this planet.  🙂

        I believe it’s got 2 narratives– where it shows what life would be like if she chose passion or comfort, so it’s more nuanced than pushing the passion angle, but I haven’t gotten that far. This same dilemma happened to the author … she chose passion.

  15. 15
    sylvana

    My theory runs in line with the one in the post. It’s a lot about mental programming. Not only in the ways mentioned, though, but in one more, rather vital aspect:

    We are always told that it is “normal” for men to be more aggressive. That whole “boys will be boys” attitude. Women have always been taught that it is not natural for them to feel/act that way.

    But take a look around any bar scene or (much as I hate to say this) the lower classes (likely because they are raised with less talk about “proper” behavior), and you’ll find more women physically fighting than men. If I was to go by those experiences alone, I’d actually have to say that women are the more aggressive gender.

    I think one of the biggest reasons women, over all, hold back more is simple support. Society might not like that behavior in men, but it expects it. So a man is more likely to find “like-minded” men. While a women who acts, or even speaks out on those kind of “urges” will quickly find herself isolated. Even if other women agree with her or feel the same. They don’t want to be outcasts. So there is a lot less chance that two or more of those types of psychopaths would find each other and feed each other’s behavior and thinking.

    Pack mentality comes to mind here.

    Another big reason, I’m certain, is simply physical. Since men are the physically stronger gender, it is a lot easier for them to commit violence against others, especially women. A woman, on the other hand, will have a lot harder time committing the same type of violence against a man (unless she uses her brain). But the physical definitely is a deterrent.

    A man will certainly have a much better chance subduing and controlling three female victims, for example. A woman would not stand the same chance against three male victims.

    So women have a lot lower likelihood of banding together with other, like-minded women, and less likelihood of being able to physically go through with their desires successfully.

    Which leads one to wonder whether it is the actual desire/urge that is lacking, or simply the ability to act on those desires.

    When it comes to deliberate cruelty and sadism (including sexual sadism), I’d say women likely outnumber men.

    The one statistic that always fascinated me was that of serial killers. 79% of serial killers come from the United States (not America in general). Over 2,300 of them (documented), compared to less than 1,000 in the entire rest of the world. Of which about 15% are actually women.

    Doesn’t that make you wonder what the US is doing wrong? How does one nation produce so many psychos?

    1. 15.1
      Mrs Happy

      Dear Sylvana,
      I suspect rates of psychopathy are roughly equal across most nations.  Some countries have the infrastructure to manhunt, catch and gaol their serial killers, some don’t; all the killers in Africa killing young children for voodoo ingredients (i.e. for parts of their bodies) are going unidentified for poor justice-infrastructure-low country wealth and education-resource reasons.  The USA catches and incarcerates or kills (some of) their serial killers.  Plus, obviously, access to guns just makes it easier to kill more people, and no country has that gun-owning ease like the USA. BTW mass murderers (shopping centre shooters and the like) aren’t serial killers – they’re plain sociopaths, and usually mentally unwell and marginalised.

  16. 16
    Persephone

    I just saw the craziest thing. I wanted to share with my friends here on the Evan Marc Katz blog. Have you ever seen images of Lisa, the trainer from Bodyrock? She’s beautiful! What really shocked me is that she genuinely thinks that she’s ugly.

    Letter from Lisa at BodyRock where she says that her face is ugly. 

    This was mildly shocking to me. However I can’t see the Lisas at the world joining online communities of women whose main purpose is to blame men to the extreme that they have things like “Bash-a-dude-day.” You may not be aware that in cells have something called “Bash-a-bitch day,” where they’re supposed to go out and commit one act of violence against a random female.

    The moral of my story is that Lisa has a more healthy attitude as compared to incels, because she is a fitness trainer and is into body awareness. Someone who is not confident about  certain aspects of their appearance can find healthier outlets to make up for things that they self-perceive  as being deficiencies.

  17. 17
    No Name To Give

    Well I guess there are certain advantages for us women who are old, fat, and plain.

  18. 18
    Olga

    Someone needs to be a couch to men.  If women aren’t happy with their life or relationships, they will read books, go to a therapist and make changes to improve their circumstance.

    I met a woman that did help men after divorces that were going on dates.  She would help them shop, buy nice clothes.  Help them write an online profile and do a few practice dates with them to help improve their skills.  So men do seek services.  However, maybe divorced men are less desperate.  Their marriage failed, but they did manage to get married, so they feel that they can be successful.

    If you are a man and you don’t have a job and maybe you are overweight and you don’t dress well and you have no idea how to flirt, then you are not going to get laid.  However, the sexual marketplace is a lot more open now.  Some incels believe, if we go back in time before feminism, it would be easier to get laid.  That is completely false.  Then women would be locked up in their houses.  It would be impossible to socialize with a woman without a chaperone present.  The only way to get laid is to convince her father that you can financially provide for her and her children and having the two families merge would in some way benefit the father financially or socially.  Your social class and religion would greatly limit your pool.  If you are a royal, you would be marrying to create an alliance.  If you are a butcher’s son, your family might arrange a marriage to a farmer’s daughter to ensure food security for both families.

    So now a man can post a profile to a ton of dating sites, meet women at a variety of social events and there is a wide range of ways to meet women and often women are open to casual sex, especially if they are younger and not yet ready for marriage or older and have done the marriage thing and just want to get laid.  However, it is a business deal.  You have to offer the woman something she wants.  Maybe you have an amazing body.  Maybe you can take her on nice trips.  Maybe you are offering a long-term relationship.  Maybe you are a fantastic cook or you are handy around the house.  You have to show that you are a valuable partner and someone she wants to have around.  That you add value to her life.  I think the second is much better than the first.  You can find someone you like and hopefully likes you back.

    Men don’t expect to be born and the next week they become doctors.  There is considerable effort that goes into developing the skills to go into any career.  Men need to learn that dating is a skill and as with anything, you improve with practice.

  19. 19
    Chris

    If you go to an Incel forum you have to take anything you read there with a grain of salt. Yes there’s a lot of disgusting nonsense being spouted there but most of it is just immature tasteless attempts at humor. Many of the men and boys there would be exaggerating what losers they are for the sake of humor. I don’t think joking about outright misogyny, racism and even rapey behaviour, even anonymously, is a good idea, but unfortunately its something many males are prone to – look at how James Gunn was recently fired from Disney for joking about pedophilia a few years ago.

  20. 20
    Persephone

    To everyone here: I want to give you a story of Hope and inspiration. A story I read reminded me so much of this blog, so much of the incel men, and others who don’t think that they have any value in life. Here is the young lady who was in so much despair that she wanted to kill herself. She shot her face off with a shotgun trying to commit suicide. She survived, and she realized that she had value.

    Beauty is relative. Beauty is on how you perceive things. I’m putting a link to a lady whose face you might not want to look at, because she’s cross-eyed. However, this is one of the most beautiful faces I’ve ever seen in my life! While it’s not conventionally beautiful, like someone you see on the cover of Glamour Magazine, or Vogue. When you learn the story behind this face, you will hopefully also think it’s beautiful.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/09/face-transplant-katie-stubblefield-photography-interactive/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=Special_20180814::rid=1004899878

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