I Am No Longer Attracted to the Man of My Dreams

A few years back I found the man of my dreams, a man that was a leader, intelligent, caring, great with my kids and attractive. When I first met him, he was going through the outcomes of celiac disease, which made him gain a lot of weight. At that time, I just had broken up a very terrible relationship with a personal trainer where I learned to be physically healthy. In the beginning of our relationship, my now fiancé worked out with me and lost a lot of weight and my physical attraction for him was at the highest. I was more in-love then I’ve ever been before. Years passed and he started to gain weight and unfortunately, his sedentary behavior started to affect me and I became sedentary too. I’m at a point in this relationship where I’m starting to see a pattern here… he is lazy, I’m lazy; He drinks, I drink; etc. Unfortunately, I started to build resentment and I don’t find him physically attractive, but our sex life is good. I just hate seeing him with a beer belly and so out of shape; I sometimes feel that he does not deserve to have a hot fiancé. I worry about his health too, and the more sedentary he becomes the more I hate his eating habits but I can’t say anything or he will get upset. What can I do to regain back the physical attraction? It kills me to be distant in a public setting with him, but I feel embarrassed at times. – Claudia

I’m at a point in this relationship where I’m starting to see a pattern here… he is lazy, I’m lazy; He drinks, I drink

I feel for you, Claudia.

As I’ve written before, attraction is an important part of any relationship.

It’s not the primary reason two people should be together, but without it, you’re no more than friends. Which makes this a tricky question when you’re making a decision for 40 years. How can your relationship survive a lack of attraction? Is he to blame? Are you to blame? Is there a right answer that suits everybody?

I think it’s important that we look at this from a few different angles:

    1. You described him as the man of your dreams: intelligent, caring, great with your kids, good in bed. I’m assuming he’s still all those things. That’s a point in his favor.
    2. When you met him he was thin (from an illness, but still). Now, he doesn’t look like the man you fell in love with. He changed the terms of the original contract? Shouldn’t that be cause for concern? Maybe. But then again…
    3. You also implied that you don’t look like you did at the beginning of the relationship. You were once in an unhealthy relationship with a personal trainer, which probably did a number on your self-image. Then you found a healthy relationship with a less physically healthy man and you both reverted to the mean. He’s lazy; you’re lazy. He drinks; you drink. By the way, this isn’t just you. “Fat and happy” is a thing. Couples are, on average, 15lbs heavier than single people.
    4. You didn’t say how much more he weighs compared to how much more you weigh, proportionately, but those in flabby houses shouldn’t throw stones. Again, I’m not defending his lifestyle, choices or looks. I’m only pointing out that for you to point out that you’re dancing on a very fine line here.

those in flabby houses shouldn’t throw stones

When you write, “he does not deserve to have a hot fiancé,” and “I feel embarrassed at times,” those sentences seem to indict you more than they indict him.

Again, I don’t know how much he let himself go. I don’t know if your assessment is fair or hypercritical. All I would ask you is this:

If we reversed the genders and a man wrote to me with the same message:

“My girlfriend is perfect. I met her when she was thin, but she gained weight and I’m not attracted to her anymore. Even though I don’t look like I used to, I’m still embarrassed by her appearance and, honestly, I don’t think she deserves to have a hot boyfriend.”

How sympathetic do you think our female readers would be to that man?

For all I want to side with you because attraction and health ARE important, your tone makes me want to tell him to find a girlfriend who appreciates him as he is.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Clare

    Hmm. I have been in this position before. I started a relationship with a guy who was in great shape and had a body I was attracted to, and then he gained weight as the relationship progressed. It has happened to me twice.

    I never went as far as having the feelings Claudia admits to – being embarrassed or feeling like they didn’t *deserve* a hot girlfriend. However, it’s a tricky one. I did feel *less* attracted to them.

    I also felt that they were taking me for granted. The feeling that your partner will love you no matter what is great, but it’s also a bit dangerous. We all have to be committed to our own well-being and self-improvement. We should strive to put the same effort into our relationship and into building attraction that we did when we were first dating.

    I don’t agree with *all* of Matthew Hussey’s philosophy, but on this particular issue, he makes some great points about putting the same effort into yourself throughout your relationship that you did while you were trying to attract them. This includes the effort you put into maintaining your hobbies, your friends, your interests, your self-growth, your health and fitness and appearance.

    I agree with Matthew Hussey on this. Personally, it’s how I live my life. I put the same effort into maintaining my health, fitness and appearance, regardless of whether I’m in a relationship or not, because for me it’s about self-love. I also care about staying attractive to the person I’m dating. I think I would want a guy who was also like this, although I don’t think I’d break up over it….

    The relationships I mentioned where the guys gained and got out of shape ended for completely different reasons than this. But, I did wish that they’d continued to put the effort into staying in shape. In fact, I think exercising together is a wonderful thing to do as a couple.

    1. 1.1
      Persephone

      @Clare:

      I so much agree with you when you said,

      “….. some great points about putting the same effort into yourself throughout your relationship that you did while you were trying to attract them. This includes the effort you put into maintaining your hobbies, your friends, your interests, your self-growth, your health and fitness and appearance.”

      The following is not directed towards you, necessarily, but just contributing to the conversation.

      My first husband would tell me the craziest things from the very beginning after our wedding. He said that he was afraid that I would be like all the rest of women, and blow up like a balloon immediately after I caught my husband– that I would stay home and watch soap operas all day and be totally useless. He never had any reason to believe that would be true about me. He was never cheerleader for me is I tried to finish my last year of college. I divorced him, and it delayed my efforts at going to law school, but I finally did finish and eventually passed the bar exam and become a lawyer. I would have never done this had I stayed with him.

      We divorced, and both moved on to different partners. He is now very old looking, after wearing his body out with excessive beer and cigarettes. He also has a fat but very sweet wife. I, on the other hand, have remained fit although I’m no longer a size 2.

      The moral of my story is that one should be careful of self fulfilling prophecies. Worry about becoming the best that you can be, instead of worrying about keeping your partner whipped in shape. They are adults and responsible for themselves.

       

    2. 1.2
      Nissa

      @Clare, I’m with you on this one. I would say that it is much, much more about behavior and habits than fitness or looks. For example, my ex had a little belly and I was perfectly content with him like that. But, he refused to do any physical activity with me. No biking, no tennis, no walking, no dancing, no yoga, no trying out new healthy dishes, no going to retreats. I was greatly unhappy with him not based on the result of his not doing those things, but with his refusal to share the lifestyle with me. He was blessed with an active enough metabolism that it didn’t matter as much for him, but I needed more activity to keep things going, and I wanted to share those moments with him.

      This is one of the areas where I don’t completely align with Evan. I had a marriage where we didn’t like the same music, hobbies or interests, and I felt it keenly. I didn’t need all of them to match, but I did need at least one to keep from feeling like roommates. Without it, my sexual desire for him was reduced to mere chemistry, without the higher soul connection that I desired.

      I have really changed my mindset from “I should give those guys that I don’t find attractive a chance to grow on me” to “men deserve a woman that is wowed by him, and I don’t want to deprive anyone of that – including myself”.

      1. 1.2.1
        L

        @Nissa

        ‘I have really changed my mindset from “I should give those guys that I don’t find attractive a chance to grow on me” to “men deserve a woman that is wowed by him, and I don’t want to deprive anyone of that – including myself”.’

        Thank you for expressing that, you succinctly explained the lesson I’ve been going through this very week.

  2. 2
    Adrian

    She said, “I sometimes feel that he does not deserve to have a hot fiancé and It kills me to be distant in a public setting with him, but I feel embarrassed at times.”

    There is literally nothing else that need to be added.

    She should break up with him immediately before they mix finances and he falls deeper in love with her

  3. 3
    Emily, the original

    How much weight has he gained? I think a matter of 10 or 20 pounds shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Sure, you’d like him to lose it, but he has all these other great qualities, so fundamentally the essence of who he is is the same. It’s like when someone ages. No one is dipped in amber. Their appearance changes over time. A man can lose his hair and still be damn sexy if you thought he was sexy before.

  4. 4
    Noquay

    This is a hard one. Two things here; why does the OP follow his behaviors? He drinks, she drinks, and so on, as though she’s just an extension of him. He doesn’t “deserve” a hot girlfriend and is embarrassed by him yet she admits to putting on weight? Since when do we get to decide what another deserves? It’s seems as though there are some toxic behavior patterns going on here. This man probably had a penchant for being sedentary which was masked by his illness. If that’s a problem, leave. There’s children involved in the situation so it’s doubly important cut the drama and be a good role model. You can’t change others and must either accept him for who he is or leave. I’d also hope the OP works on regaining fitness for her own sake, not to mirror someone else.

  5. 5
    ames

    Weight gain is a common as we age. Combination of hormonal fluctuations with an ever increasing demand from employers to give endlessly more as we progress in our careers or simply hang on, well it’s no wonder we become less attractive. While a spark is important it’s wise to acknowledge that our partners will become less attractive with passing decades be it about size, hair loss, wrinkles etc. We tend to attract those with similar attractiveness so it might be mature to realize he might be emphasizing your positives, not negatives, and follow suit. Better than starting over with a near perfect guy perhaps reach out and ask what’s in the way of a healthier lifestyle. Is he working 10+ hours daily? Excessive stress or simply doesn’t know how to cook flavorful light meals? Taking the initiative to have great meals ready for you both might allow him to get fitter without feeling deprived. Untimately you’re responsible for your own choices and his habits need not be yours. If you feel contempt for or need to control him you’re probably in dangerous territory. Best of luck and hope you can find a compromise. 

    1. 5.1
      Clare

      ames,

      I agree with you that there is a lot she can do to help in these circumstances, rather than leave the relationship.

      She can take the initiative with grocery shopping, making dinner and packing lunches for them (she can get him to help or get him involved), choosing healthier alternatives. And healthier really doesn’t have to mean less filling or tasty. Personally, I found a big culprit when my ex-husband and I were working in offices was simply the convenience factor – not having a prepared lunch, so you just go out at lunch and pick up what’s quickest and most convenient.

      Exercising as a couple is great too – going out and walking the dogs together after work or cycling, etc. It’s just a great way to bond and have fun together.

      I also agree that she is unfairly blaming him for her own bad habits. I found that part of the letter really weird. And I agree with Evan that she’s not in any position to judge if she has also let herself go during their relationship. Assuming the rest of the relationship is good, it’s a problem that’s eminently solvable and does not need to be a break-up.

  6. 6
    Noone45

    Oh lort, some people in this world over complicate everything. At any point, she could have exercised some self-restraint and cut her portions down. She didn’t. She got fat too. Yet, here she is, whining that her man is fat. This is not something that happened in a vacuum. She’s just wrong. There’s no getting around it. You can’t sit there and justify it. If you didn’t gain weight, then nothing here applies to you. If you are a fat butt, you don’t get to get on your pedestal about anyone else’s weight issue. What did that Jesus guy say? Something about taking a log out your own eye before worrying about someone else? This is on par with fat dudes saying “no fat chicks”. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. How do we know the boyfriend isn’t embarrassed by her weight gain? Hmmmmmm 🤔

     

     

     

  7. 7
    Mrs Happy

    It’s really hard to be in a relationship with someone you are not attracted to.  I’ve tried.  Disaster.  It just doesn’t have a future.  I had to force everything.  Not sustainable.

    But on the other hand, if you stay with someone for long enough, they will wrinkle, sag, lose their hair or go grey, probably put on weight, detone and go boggy-soggy, and eventually be much less attractive than when you first met.  (As will you.)

    There is, somewhere, a middle ground of “good-looking enough”, but it does seem that for the OP that ship has sailed.  We know from commenters on this site that the really fit cut people want fit and cut in a partner; it’s allowed to be a priority and a need, but remember you only get three non-negotiable wants.  I remember laughing when one poster (I’ll spare his blushes) wrote about “skinny-fat” not being good enough either.  But people are allowed their list of three.  I myself wouldn’t waste one of the three on physical attributes but that’s just me.

    1. 7.1
      Nissa

      @Mrs Happy – Thank you for the laugh. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie Notting Hill, but there’s a moment after Hugh Grant is kissed by Julia Roberts and he blurts out: “I’m so sorry about my ‘surreal but nice’ comment. Disaster”. Every time I see your comment I am reminded of it and it makes me giggle.

  8. 8
    Aren

    A part of her e-mail stood out to me: “I’m at a point in this relationship where I’m starting to see a pattern here… he is lazy, I’m lazy; He drinks, I drink; etc. “. 

    I see two issue here rather than one: 1) Not finding BF attractive 2) Feeling like he is dragging her down

    Regarding point 2: Correct me if I am wrong, but she seems to be implying that her BF is partly to blame for her being lazy and drinking. She exercised when she dated a personal trainer: now she is dating a guy who does not exercise so she does not too. I wager that is one of the reasons behind her dissatisfaction with the relationship.

    I can empathize as I was in a slightly similar situation after I started dating my BF. He is quite fit, but does like to eat and likes different type of exercise than me. As we started spending most of our time together, we got more fat and less fit. Nothing that made us less attracted to each other (BMI of about 24-25 which is the upper limit for healthy weight) but in a way, we were encouraging each other’s negative habits.

    Would I be fitter if he was a personal trainer? 100 percent. Would he be fitter if I was a yoga instructor? You bet he would. We do not like the gym and each time have to drag ourselves there. However, rather than blaming each other for not being into sports and healthy food, we each started exercising individually and found more active ways of spending time together actively. Some suggestions: cycling and hiking trips at weekends, beginner’s salsa classes after work.

     

    This feeds into point 1):

    I strongly believe you should accept your partner as they are, quirks and all. The BF will probably never sport a six pack and love the gym. If it is a deal breaker, she should dump him.

    However, I believe that hat keeping yourself in a reasonable shape is important for everyone’s mental and physical wellbeing, so if it is just matter of feeling unmotivated, there might be some room for improvement.  He is not her project and she should not approach this topic as “I want you to look hotter”, but “I am feeling out of shape and lethargic, I’d like to do something about it, do you want to join and support me?

    Again, I’d like to emphasize that people who lose weight are likely to gain it back at some time in their lives (tragedy in the family, injury, depression, stress). If she really feels she cannot stand being with the current version of her BF,  she should probably break up with him.

     

     

     

  9. 9
    Cathalei

    Why does the OP feel that she has to imitate his behavior? Could it be a product of her self-image issues with her previous relationship? The most disturbing sentence was that “I sometimes feel that he doesn’t deserve a hot fiancé” and yes, that tells a lot more about the OP than does him. If she wants to engage in certain activities with him, she should tell this upfront and make suggestions. Besides, she told that she had gained weight too, would she like to be the subject of critical, cutting remarks with a prospective partner? I think she should get a reality check and think about what attracted her to him in the first place. Besides, telling someone “doesn’t deserve X or Y” is counterproductive, it’s quite a toxic behavior that is bound to get nothing but defensiveness. He definitely deserves a partner who accepts him as he is just like she does, hence breaking up from the trainer guy.

  10. 10
    Yet Another Guy

    @Evan

    Why does the LW assume that she is still hot after gaining weight? I think women need to be more objective when it comes to looks because women are much less accepting than men when it comes to what they find attractive.  The LW needs to compare what she looks like naked without any makeup to what her beau looks like naked.

    I have been watching a series of videos that attempts to explain the science of attraction.  When we strip everything away, attraction is based on securing the best genetics possible.  A lot of what makes a man attractive is his facial bone structure, followed by his build, both of which are influenced heavily by the amount of testosterone flowing through his body during puberty.  High cheekbones, flat-sided cheeks, a prominent brow ridge, coupled with an angular jaw and a prominent chin are all influenced by a man’s testosterone level during puberty.  Low body fat is also considered to be attractive.  Body fat composition is directly related to testosterone level. One of the reasons why men become less attractive as they gain weight is because it increases their estrogen level, which causes rounding of the facial contours, resulting in a softer, more feminized appearance.

    Women use makeup to trick the male mind into believing that they possess higher value genetics than they do. The way that makeup is applied accentuates features that signal good genetics.  That is why a woman should never compare her looks to the man with whom she shares her life while she is wearing makeup.  Makeup is genetic deception.

    1. 10.1
      Emily, the original

      YAG,

      Makeup is genetic deception.

      Then only date women who don’t wear make-up so you aren’t deceived. Problem solved.

    2. 10.2
      Cathalei

      Most of men to my observation don’t care about whether a woman wears makeup or not so even if it’s a deception it doesn’t mostly work. They care about their sum total of their natural features. Plastic surgery is genetic deception, there are news of divorces involving the discovery of their spouses appearance pre-surgery. Even with all, genetics work in a more complicated way than most think. The combination of genetic material is mostly determined at a moment. Gaining weight is not genetic material, it’s due to their habits.

      1. 10.2.1
        Clare

        Cathalei,

        Yes.

        If I had a rand (dollar) for every man who begged me not to wear make-up because he preferred me looking natural….

    3. 10.3
      Mrs Happy

      The Italian word for make-up is truccare – meaning, to trick/rig.

    4. 10.4
      Clare

      YAG,

      With all due respect, we have absolutely no idea whether or not the OP wears make up.

      Many women don’t. I only wear make-up about 30% of the time (including around the guys I’m dating). Many women can’t afford make-up or don’t know how to apply it properly.

      Frankly, unless you are a make-up artist, a model or particularly skilled in the art of make-up application, it really doesn’t trick anyone about your genetics.

      This just once again comes off as one of your diatribes about how women need to learn to accept their place in the pecking order. It’s getting exceptionally old, tired and samey.

      1. 10.4.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Clare

        It is not so much about women accepting their place in the pecking order.  It is about women complaining about not being able to get the guy they want while ignoring that the guy has a higher SMV.  If a woman goes after a man with a higher SMV, she should not be shocked when all he wants is sex.  If you want to refer to it as a woman accepting her place in the pecking order, so be it.  Men with even a shred of social intelligence know where they land in the male hierarchy.  They may not like where the land in the male hierarchy, but they are confronted by the limitations imposed by their SMV every day.  Why do think that manosphere exists? It is mostly a place for men who do not rank near the top of the male hierarchy to vent their frustration. It is mostly misguided, but the guys have a legitimate beef.  With the removal of dependence on a man, women are focusing their attention on the top 20% of men, irrespective of their own SMV.  Anything less is seen as settling.

        The guys who are part of the incel movement are now new. Did you know that we have more female ancestors than male ancestors?  In fact, we have double the number of female ancestors that we have male ancestors. That means that twice as many women gave birth as men fathered children when we look at the span of mankind’s existence.  It also demonstrates that women would rather share a higher-value man than settle for a lessor one.

        1. Nissa

          I live near LA. A lot of men wear makeup, get plastic surgery, hide a weak chin with facial hair, etc. Men can improve if they want to improve.

        2. Clare

          YAG,

          You do realise that once you start banging on and on about a higher SMV I completely ignore everything you write?

          You really are a one-trick pony, YAG.

      2. 10.4.2
        Tom10

        @ Clare
        “Many women can’t afford make-up or don’t know how to apply it properly”
         
        This just blows my mind.
         
        I don’t mean to sound like a Neanderthal here and, admittedly, I know absolutely nothing about make-up so perhaps my comment is unfair; however, surely for any woman who wants to date then it’d be wise for her to learn how to apply it properly?
         
        I understand decent makeup can be expensive; but can it be done effectively and cheaply if one is clever and skilled?
         
        The difference proper makeup can make to a woman can be startling; surely it’s a basic skill to master if one wants to date, no? I mean, don’t men (ahem) go on and on and on and about looks?
         
        I’m trying to think of a like-for-like comparative male-skill. Like, say if a guy has dandruff because he doesn’t know how to wash his hair properly wouldn’t you think; well why don’t you learn how to do it properly then? Or not being able to drive/pay rent etc. Perhaps a silly comparison but it’s to make a point.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Tom10

          I’m trying to think of a like-for-like comparative male-skill.

          There is nothing a man can do to improve his physical appearance to a similar degree.

          Let’s examine the two photos on this page: https://www.bustle.com/articles/6925-is-it-unfair-to-men-when-women-wear-a-lot-of-makeup

          The photos do not look like the same woman. Makeup has been used to even out the woman’s complexion, establish a better jawline, change the perceived shape of her eyes, make her eyebrows look fuller/more symmetrical, and raise her cheekbones.  Those are all signs of superior genetics.  In this case, makeup raised a 5 to an 8. About the only thing a guy can do that comes remotely close this kind of transformation is to seriously reduce his body fat content; therefore, enhancing his jawline and flattening his cheeks. There is really no way to camouflage his weak genetic points in the same way.  If he does not have a square jaw with a protruding chin, the right mandible angle combined with high cheek bones, hunter eyes, and a well-defined brow ridge, which are all signs of high testosterone, reducing body fat content will only help so much.

           

        2. Clare

          Tom10,

          “surely for any woman who wants to date then it’d be wise for her to learn how to apply it properly?”

          Surely every man knows that women find a strong and toned physique sexy and so should invest in a gym membership that he uses at least 2-3 times a week?

          Tom, since the evidence is overwhelming that people do not always do things which are logical and in their best interests so much of the time, why are you suddenly attributing this level of wisdom to all womankind?

          How on earth can I answer why all women haven’t learned to apply make-up skillfully? I’d also love to know why most people don’t read books more than they do, given that it makes them sound 50% more articulate and intelligent.

          I can only tell you what I know about women. Knowing how to apply make-up skillfully is not a skill that all have learned. Some think that bright red lips and OTT false lashes are lovely. Others have no idea what shade of foundation or blush would suit them. Still others just couldn’t be bothered to drag a brush through their hair, let alone spend 20 minutes applying make-up.

          So, the short answer is: Yes, it can be done cheaply and properly. But many women don’t know how and don’t take the time. You could make the same argument about clothes. And yet how many people do we see walking around in leggings and tracksuit tops?

          Personally, I know how to apply make-up skillfully because my mom taught me a lot about it growing up, and I have experimented and applied feedback over the years, and yes, I know how to use it to make a good impression. But, like Shaukat says, I have never, never, ever had a man say he found me less attractive without it. As I said, some of them have begged me not to wear it because they like my natural skin and eyes. I really only wear it to boost my confidence on the first couple of dates and if I’m going out.

        3. Mrs Happy

          Dear Tom10,

          your comment made me smile ruefully because very recently I was discussing with some women, that I don’t know how to put on makeup well, or style my hair well/at all, and I’m always amazed at how much better my hair looks after the hairdresser colours and blowdries it; everyone comments on it until I next wash it and it thus returns to my unstyled norm.

          Someone said to me, I could do a beauty course, and learn. I’ve a vague memory of attending one training makeup session before my 2nd wedding.  So little went in, that the wedding photographer took me aside and asked me to put on more mascara on the actual wedding day.

          I haven’t learnt or done a proper makeup course because I can’t be bothered. I was doing something else pretty major instead from ages 15-25 when females learn these skills, and I have never ever focused on my looks or thought they were terribly important.  For occasional dates in my 20’s and 30’s I put in makeup and hair effort, but it’s such a waste of time (2 hours before a date during which I could be reading or jogging instead), so I fairly quickly reverted to low effort.  All through my upbringing and education years the priority of the adults around me was on something different about me, not my looks, so I was never ever taught to prioritise my looks.  All my life my appearance was literally never mentioned until I started dating and men said stuff.  It was probably a huge gap in my upbringing and ignored how the world really works for many women, but now I’m really grateful for it because I don’t prioritise looks the way others seem to have been taught to.

          I never heard the term SMV or RMV before my late 30’s when I started reading this blog.  Never weighed my attractiveness (SMV) up against a partner’s.  How they looked was always far down my list, and I didn’t realize men prioritised looks so, until reading this blog.  I suppose if lack of makeup skill were a hindrance to getting the guys I wanted, I’d have done a course. Maybe. Reluctantly. Yawn.

          I actually feel for YAG because at heart he is feeling deceived and that can’t feel pleasant.  Though if you aren’t planning to reproduce with someone, I guess what they look like with styled hair and makeup for the one night you’re getting flirty and intimate, matters more than their underlying genetic beauty baseline as evaluated sans makeup.

          I have to wear makeup to work because I grudgingly figure I have to present a certain professional look.  I put it on in 120 seconds in my car just as I enter the work carpark; I have it timed to the second, it’s such a waste of time and I just want to get in and dive into work.  Minimal effect is what you get for 120 seconds – only evening of skin tones, and highlighting cheekbones and lips. I figure I’m getting paid what I am 99.9999% for my other skills, not my facial appearance, so 120 seconds is enough. Like many women, I wash it off the second I get home.  I actually resent having to wear it.

        4. Tom10

          @ Clare
          “Surely every man knows that women find a strong and toned physique sexy and so should invest in a gym membership that he uses at least 2-3 times a week?”
           
          It’s different the other way around Clare though; ‘cos women care more about a man’s career than his looks, right? Just kidding!
           
          But point taken; if a man is struggling to attain the results he wants due to his being in poor condition then I’d also wonder why he doesn’t address that.
           
          “why are you suddenly attributing this level of wisdom to all womankind?”
           
          Haha; I just had a eureka moment where I figured that no-one had ever thought of it before and simply needed a man to point it out! 😉
           
          So, for my next pearl of wisdom; have women ever thought about learning how to style their hair nicely?
           
          You’re welcome. 🙂
           
          “I’d also love to know why most people don’t read books more than they do, given that it makes them sound 50% more articulate and intelligent.”
           
          Well, unlike makeup skills; reading books makes no material difference to dating outcomes whatsoever; in fact mentioning reading books is more likely a dating turn-off, on balance, than turn-on.
           
          Hey; I’m simply trying to think of ways to materially improve dating outcomes here!
           
          “I have never, never, ever had a man say he found me less attractive without it.” 
           
          Well surely this is simply a matter of tact: what person would tell a woman he finds her less attractive with or without makeup; surely he’ll say she looks fantastic either way?
           
          Actually, on second thoughts scratch that; it seems from this blog that many men do unfortunately lack this tact. Yikes.
           
          Dear Mrs Happy
          Thanks for your lovely response.
           
          “I haven’t learnt or done a proper makeup course because I can’t be bothered.”
           
          I get that.
           
          I too care little about my own appearance for its own sake and, day-to-day, I make little to no effort whatsoever.
           
          However, when out bar-hopping or on dates I’ll make an enormous effort to maximize it as I realize how much of an impact appearance makes thus tangible results it’ll achieve; as Cathalei mentioned humans are visual and respond strongly to visual stimuli.
           
          In professional environments I sometimes “dress-down” on purpose as it might suit to create a particular impression I’m trying to make.
           
          So it really comes down to one’s goal I guess. So my original question should have included the caveat; “for those who struggle to achieve their dating outcomes why don’t they learn how to do nice makeup/buy decent clothes/work-out?”
           
          For those who don’t struggle to attain their dating goals then I guess it’s not an issue.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Tom10

          You said, “Well surely this is simply a matter of tact: what person would tell a woman he finds her less attractive with or without makeup; surely he’ll say she looks fantastic either way? ”

          You once made a comment that from the statements of most of our regular commenters you would think they are all highly desirable alphas in the dating world.

          I wonder if it’s even possible for any of them to actually conceive that a guy would intentionally not tell them something negative about their appearance? When they see a guy not tell a woman she looks overweight, or unattractive without makeup do they think that is just that woman’s man or could they possible believe it’s happened to them as well? What does a boyfriend have to gain by telling his girlfriend she does look prettier in makeup?

          I’m an anxious attachment style person so I think about what flaws they see that they aren’t telling me about all the time, but from the way many of these commenters talk you would think they would be shocked to find out a man did think they looked better with makeup or a man did care about her BMI, or SMV rating yet he was too nice to tell her to her face.

          People refrain from telling me certain things about my physical appearance and I do as well all the time, but I don’t go around thinking that I would be “just” as attractive if I didn’t hit the gym, get good haircuts, or dress nice just because no woman told me I would.

          GoWithTheFlow once told the story of how many women suffer from a false inflated image of themselves because when their friends and guys they date don’t tell their honest opinions about them the woman goes along thinking the little white lie these men tell them are the truth… To be fair I think both men and women suffer from this.

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Tom10 and the rest of the gang,

          This reminds me of a funny thread on twitter today by a woman who said a man on the train to work told her, as she applied some makeup, “You look better when you’re natural.”  She replied “You look better when you’re silent.”

          Age and life stage may be a factor in how much time and attention a woman puts into hairstyling and makeup application.  Young women almost always make up the bulk of women who experiment with makeup and invest the most time doing so.  They’re dating and going out the most too since a big proportion of them are single.

          When a woman gets married, it’s not so much feeling she’s feeling safely paired up and therefore doesn’t need to keep up appearances. It’s that her time is now taken up by her family.  When you have two kids to drop off at daycare before you head into work, after you were up until midnight folding laundry, you prioritize getting an extra 45 minutes of sleep rather than styling hair and applying makeup.

          Also, maintaining hairstyles and makeup, or being afraid to be seen without being all done up, can be very limiting.  Not going swimming or hiking or participating in other activities.  Every group of girlfriends will tease the one or two who considers a broken blow dryer as grounds to call in sick to work.

          Every woman has to balance how much time and effort she puts into styling herself with what else is going on in her life.  Priorities and comfort zones shift as we go through life.  A 22 year old who spends 30 minutes every morning creating the perfect cat eye, may eventually become a married working mom of toddler twins who prioritizes getting 6 hours of sleep at night over that perfect cat eye.  And skills degrade and styles change.  So when those twins are teens, she might have more time to spend on her makeup but has no idea where to begin.

        7. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,
          Age and life stage may be a factor in how much time and attention a woman puts into hairstyling and makeup application. … When you have two kids to drop off at daycare before you head into work, after you were up until midnight folding laundry, you prioritize getting an extra 45 minutes of sleep rather than styling hair and applying makeup.
          I don’t have children and I still value the extra 45 minutes of sleep. I spend much less time on hair and makeup now than I did in my 20s. I still want to look put together, but to spend an inordinate amount of time on hair and makeup seems pointless. Richard Gere is not going to show up and carry me out of my office.  🙂

    5. 10.5
      Shaukat

      I’ve never found a woman who I wasn’t already attracted to suddenly attractive because she puts on make-up.

      1. 10.5.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Shaukat

        Did you meet all of the women to whom you were attracted sans makeup?  As the link I posted demonstrates, carefully applied makeup can make an average looking women stand out in the crowd.  A lot of people claim that women become more unattractive after the marry. The reality is that women stop wearing as much makeup after they marry and well as stop getting their hair and nails done as frequently.  If you want to know if you find a woman attractive, ask her to meet you in sweats with no makeup and her hair in a pony tail.

        1. Sandra

          YAG,

          Seriously, no woman with any self-respect would agree to that.  That is asking a woman to allow you to size her up. which would be humiliating.  Not just because of the possible rejection, but just the mere request.

          As for the woman in the before/after photo; I can assure you the average would not have the skill or time to apply makeup like that.  It was obvious after a couple hours with a makeup artist and hair stylist.  If she had done her own “street makeup” she would be completely recognizable, just with more even-toned skin and mascara.  Having said that , I absolutely love her makeup in that photo.

        2. Karl R

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “If you want to know if you find a woman attractive, ask her to meet you in sweats with no makeup and her hair in a pony tail.”

          Sweats? Why sweats? Those conceal a woman’s figure (in a particularly unflattering way). If I want to accurately determine a woman’s attractiveness, I want to see her naked, sans makeup, and with bed head.

          And why would this “transformation” occur after marriage? I may not have seen every attractive woman without makeup, but I’ve seen all of my sex partners without makeup. (Generally within a week before/after we first had sex.) Unsurprisingly, I also saw them naked and with bed head around the same time.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “As the link I posted demonstrates, carefully applied makeup can make an average looking women stand out in the crowd.”

          The “after” picture stands out because she looks like she’s wearing a ton of carefully applied makeup.

          If a woman is wearing heavy makeup all over her face, it’s a fairly safe bet that she’s trying very hard to cover something up. Who would put in that much time and effort to look exactly the same as she always does?

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          Who would put in that much time and effort to look exactly the same as she always does?

          I know several women who put that much effort into their day-to-day makeup. I once dated a woman who knew exactly how to transform herself with makeup. She looked like another women after she removed her makeup.  I lost interest when she finally removed it.

          While the makeup in the link is extreme, it does go to show how effective makeup is at creating a false sense of high estrogen and good breeding health/genetics. In fact, it is quite telling how much of a difference makeup can make.

          Attraction is based almost solely on obtaining the best breeding genetics available.  It does not matter if a man or a woman is past normal childbearing age.  What we trigger on is breeding health (why men prefer women of normal childbearing age).  It is why women prefer men who are not fat (men put on fat in their abdomen) and why men prefer women who do not have belly fat (although fat store in a woman’s boobs, hips, buttocks and thighs is acceptable because this is a healthy way to store fat).  Belly fat is a sign of poor breeding health.  Breeding fitness is also why most women prefer men with hair.  Being bald is a sign of not having good breeding genetics.  We do not consciously recognize these preferences this way because they are primal in nature just like the reason why women prefer tall men.

        4. Karl R

          I said:

          “If a woman is wearing heavy makeup all over her face, it’s a fairly safe bet that she’s trying very hard to cover something up. Who would put in that much time and effort to look exactly the same as she always does?”

          Yet Another Guy replied:

          “I know several women who put that much effort into their day-to-day makeup.”

          So do I.  One is covering up a wine-stain birthmark that covers one quarter of her face.

          So when you see a woman wearing heavy makeup on a daily basis, why would you assume that she has perfect skin and/or great genes?

          I assume there might be a reason she’s insecure about her skin.

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “While the makeup in the link is extreme, it does go to show how effective makeup is at creating a false sense of high estrogen and good breeding health/genetics.

          Only if you’re blind or clueless. Heavy makeup looks exactly like heavy makeup.  (See this example, which I found by Googling “close-up headshot”.)  Do you really look at an example like that without seeing the makeup?

          Just in case you couldn’t tell, she’s wearing heavy foundation on her face, neck and upper shoulders, covered by a layer of powder. Concealer under the eyes. Mascara, high quality fake eyelashes, eye-liner, three shades of eye shadow. Two shades of blush under her cheekbones, with one shade applied on her forehead at the hairline. Lipstick with a layer of gloss (maybe Vaseline) over it. There’s also a touch of glitter applied to her cheekbones which has gotten into her hair.

          Given the quality of the job (and a couple other clues), I believe this makeup was applied by a trained professional, not the woman in the photo.

          With less makeup than that, you could transform me into an attractive looking woman. (Ten years ago, for Halloween, I did exactly that.)

          I’ll give you a hint. Real skin has a different texture than makeup, and it reflects light differently.

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “She looked like another women after she removed her makeup.  I lost interest when she finally removed it.”

          I lose interest when a woman puts on that much makeup. I prefer women with little or no makeup.

          If you find that much makeup attractive, and if you can’t tell when someone’s wearing it, are you certain that you haven’t dated any men during the years?

        5. Sam

          @Yet Another Guy

          As a woman, there are very few women who are able to apply makeup to the extent that the girl in the link does. That is hair and a full face of makeup done by professionals. Women only get that kind of done up for special events. There is a reason that there is an entire article and so much buzz centered around that picture. It is uncommon to see such a drastic transformation. Even for first dates, almost no women would get their makeup professionally done. Unless you are dating a ton of makeup artists, it is unlikely that the women you are meeting look so dramatically different without make up.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Sandra

          Seriously, no woman with any self-respect would agree to that.  That is asking a woman to allow you to size her up. which would be humiliating.  Not just because of the possible rejection, but just the mere request.

          Yet, men have to do it every day of the week. We do not get to cover our flaws. We are judged in our natural form. That is all I have been trying to get across.  Granted, some guys suffer from bad haircuts, lack of hygiene, and host of other things that make them look even worse than their genetics would dictate given better attention to the basics of attraction.

          Getting back to my original premise, the LW believes that she is still hot even though she too has gained weight?  Is she comparing the naked, sans makeup, bed head version of herself to her beau, or is she comparing the dolled-up, dressed to the nines version of herself to her beau? That is an apples to oranges comparison.

        7. Brenda

          Maybe if a woman wants to know if she finds you attractive, she should ask for a dick pic in advance so she can see if you’re hung enough for her taste?

        8. jo

          Karl R, your response to YAG is hilarious and deserved.Back to the OP’s letter (since nothing in the original post was about makeup), I agree with everyone who thinks they should break up. She at least does not sound mature enough for a relationship, if she 1) stops working out and stops eating well just because someone else isn’t working out or eating well, and 2) blames it on him instead of taking responsibility for herself. She may not be able to control him, but she should be able to control herself. It also is a problem that when she tried to tell him about her worries, he got upset. Either he has problems with hearing her concerns or she is expressing them offensively. Either way, it doesn’t sound like they are a good long-term fit.

    6. 10.6
      Adrian

      Well in Yet Another Guy’s defense I think I know of the video series he is talking about. So it’s not his idea but that of the scientist and researchers (most of whom were women) that stated that women use make-up, high heels, and dying their hair blonde to appear more genetically alluring to men.

      I’ve also read it in several books about dating from scientist.

      …   …   …

      On a slightly different note: I once heard a women say that most guys can’t really tell when a woman is wearing makeup; there is a difference between wearing make-up and wearing too much make-up and men mostly only know the latter.

      I agree with this

      1. 10.6.1
        Marika

        When I was around 11/12 I used to buy Dolly magazine (like we all did). Apart from giving advice about developing bodies etc, the rest of the magazine was about makeup, cologne, other facial cleansing products..

        I’m kinda thinking guys weren’t given these messages at 11. I know my brother was reading about some video game or something at the time. And he was older.

        I don’t recall Dolly using the word deception…I’m sure the ad executives certainly had lots of conversations about the insecurities of pre pubescent girls though.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Marika,

          You said, “I’m sure the ad executives certainly had lots of conversations about the insecurities of pre pubescent girls though.

          Yes but probably more from a profit standpoint than a caring one.

          This conversation is tricky; I can already see that one misspoken word could get you labeled as a misogynist…

          You said, “When I was around 11/12 I used to buy Dolly magazine. Apart from giving advice about developing bodies etc, the rest of the magazine was about makeup, cologne, other facial cleansing products… I’m kinda thinking guys weren’t given these messages at 11. 

          I’m not into social media so things that are old to most people are new to me because it’s usually my first time hearing about it.

          Recently I heard about a new trend that the young guys (at least here in the States) have where they take a girl swimming. Apparently they are trying to see how she looks without makeup because of something that was posted and went viral on facebook about a guy being upset when he saw how this girl looked without makeup.

          But honestly I don’t think it’s a new trend, we have had very popular sites like celebrities without makeup for years, and tabloids that love to show women without makeup with headlines like “she is sick or she is having a mental meltdown.” They assume something is wrong with these celebrities just because of how she looks without makeup. It’s probably different in Australia but here in the U.S we are a very beauty obsessed country.

          The thing is I don’t think a person who is insecure about their looks is being deceptive in a bad way and you can’t compare a normal woman to a celebrity who is paid to look good. I have heard numerous stories of women who said they were afraid to let a guy they liked see how they looked without makeup.

          Like it or not “if” there truly is that big of difference between when someone does and doesn’t wear makeup then I think Evan’s rule of waiting until the guy is emotionally invest before revealing the truth is the best course of action.

          But honestly I think the photo YAG linked is very rare. I don’t’ think the average woman that wears makeup is that different without it and I definitely don’t think these women are being maliciously deceptive.

    7. 10.7
      Adrian

      Hi Yet Another Guy,

      You said, “I think women need to be more objective when it comes to looks because women are much less accepting than men when it comes to what they find attractive.

      I actually read the entire study in context about the OKCupid data in the book “Datanomics.” The thing that people don’t mention when they quote that study is that the researchers used attractive men as well and still got the general same results from women.

      Do you think that maybe women just sincerely don’t realize that they place such a emphasis on looks? Like they honestly believe deep down that they don’t care or they at least tell themselves that they don’t care as much as men do even if their actions say something different?

      You said, “It is about women complaining about not being able to get the guy they want while ignoring that the guy has a higher SMV. Men with even a shred of social intelligence know where they land in the male hierarchy.

      1). Are you speaking about online or offline?

      2). If online then how do you explain the men who repeatedly ignore women around their own SMV rating and only message high(er) rated SMV women?… This was also mentioned in the OKCupid data results.

      You said, “It also demonstrates that women would rather share a higher-value man than settle for a lessor one.

      If this is true than how do you explain all the average or below men happily dating and marrying average or below women all the time? Also I think the percentage of single women that knowingly go into an affair with a married or already taken man is very very small compared to the whole.

       

      1. 10.7.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Adrian

        Yes, I do believe that women tell reality in order to feel better about being even more shallow when it comes to looks than men.  Women always talk about a man’s confidence, but a confidence is not a qualifier.  It is a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing.  Lack of confidence can make an attractive man less attractive, but having confidence cannot make a man who does not meet a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness more attractive, regardless of what women tell themselves.  The same can be said for game.  Game only comes into play when a man meets a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness.  The more a guy exceeds a woman’s baseline, the less game comes into play. That is why the whole PUA movement is little more than money making sham. Guys who are 5s or less stand no chance with women unless they find a way to improve truly their SMV.  The guys who do manage to improve after going through PUA training had the genetics necessary to do so.  They were just awkward and did not know how to package themselves well.  Most guys who buy into this snake oil are wasting their money.

        1). Are you speaking about online or offline?

        2). If online then how do you explain the men who repeatedly ignore women around their own SMV rating and only message high(er) rated SMV women?… This was also mentioned in the OKCupid data results.

        Online dating is an entirely different world.  These men would not have the balls to approach the best looking women in real life.  However, I have been called “stuck up” because I have been non-responsive to a less attractive woman’s flirtations in real life.  It’s like women are completely unaware of where they fall within the female hierarchy, and men have themselves to blame for this problem because we have absolutely no problem dating down for easy sex.  A man who is horny does not target women with a comparable SMV. Those women are too much work. No, he targets women with a lower to significantly lower SMV because obtaining sex is much easier.  This practice shuts out men who are equal in SMV to the women with whom the horny higher SMV man is dating purely for easy sex.  I did it a lot when I was younger, and to be completely honest, I still do it from time to time to see if I still have it.  However, I used to steal lower SMV men’s women as a sport.  I finally came to my senses when I started to do it to my friends.  That is when I realized how destructive my behavior had been to those around me.

        If this is true than how do you explain all the average or below men happily dating and marrying average or below women all the time?

        Are the women who are marrying average or below average men truly happy?  Or are they trading arousal for comfort?  The truth is that there is no such thing as a female incel.  A women, no matter how plain, can get laid because men have no problem whatsoever dating down if a woman makes sex easy enough.  All a woman needs to do is walk into a bar and announce that she wants to get laid.  She may not get her choice of man, but she can get laid.  That is not true for the men who fall into the incel category.  These men are mostly 4s and below. No woman is going to have sex with a 4 unless he is well-heeled, and since success accumulates disproportionately to attractiveness, these men are fucked (attractive people experience the “halo effect”).

        1. Cathalei

          Physical attractiveness is important for both sexes and that doesn’t make anyone shallow as long as they don’t bully or degrade others for not being attracted to them.

          Why so much surprise, honestly? Both men and women are visual creatures unless they’re blind. Wanting physical attraction doesn’t mean they don’t want comfort. Just because a woman is with a man whom you don’t find attractive doesn’t mean she’s trading arousal for comfort. Not all unattractive men are comfortable to be around. There’s a high probability that she genuinely finds him attractive for his many qualities.

          Not everyone likes blondes. Not everyone has Pamela Anderson as ideal body type of a woman. (I don’t find her attractive in the slightest) The qualities you see as flaws might be endearing to them for various reasons. Besides, so called incel group was opened by a woman. Plenty of unattractive men van get mates. Elliot Rodger was quite good looking for example. That didn’t stop him from being an “incel”. (Identifying as such becomes a self fulfilling prophecy every so often.) You can’t berate others for having preferences like you do.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Cathalei

          Why so much surprise, honestly? Both men and women are visual creatures unless they’re blind.

          The difference is that women are much more selective when it comes to arousal.  What arouses a woman is much narrower that what arouses a man.  Men like women of all shapes and sizes, that is, as long as they do not have a belly fat.

          Wanting physical attraction doesn’t mean they don’t want comfort. Just because a woman is with a man whom you don’t find attractive doesn’t mean she’s trading arousal for comfort. Not all unattractive men are comfortable to be around. There’s a high probability that she genuinely finds him attractive for his many qualities.

          I am sorry, but that is complete and utter bullshit. Women marry men all of the time for comfort. I would go as far as to say that the majority of women over the age of thirty marry for comfort.  In essence, women settle for comfort because they cannot have both, and they get tired of having their heads bashed against a wall by men who invoke high levels of arousal. Evan basically earns his living convincing women to give up on the high arousal men.

        3. Adrian

          Hi YAG,

          You said, “Women always talk about a man’s confidence, but a confidence is not a qualifier.  It is a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing.  Lack of confidence can make an attractive man less attractive, but having confidence cannot make a man who does not meet a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness more attractive, regardless of what women tell themselves.  The same can be said for game.  Game only comes into play when a man meets a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness.

          I completely agree with this. It’s not like anyone is saying that morals, values, how a person treats you etc; isn’t important but those is B-Z! A (the first step) is does that person meet your baseline requirements for attraction.

          But honestly from the comments I truly believe that women don’t realize they are doing this. Let a great guy with a heart of gold who they don’t find physically attractive try to become their boyfriend and then we will see where all their talk about SMV ratings not mattering goes.

        4. Karl R

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “Women always talk about a man’s confidence, but a confidence is not a qualifier.  It is a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing.  Lack of confidence can make an attractive man less attractive, but having confidence cannot make a man who does not meet a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness more attractive, regardless of what women tell themselves.”

          Adrian said:

          “I completely agree with this. It’s not like anyone is saying that morals, values, how a person treats you etc; isn’t important but those is B-Z! A (the first step) is does that person meet your baseline requirements for attraction.”

          You’re both wrong.

          Would either one of you want to have the face of Mick Jagger or Steven Tyler … without having the fame, stage presence, etc. that drew women to them?

          Confidence is a qualifier … provided it’s as blatantly obvious as your face. Quietly confident isn’t going to cut it.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Karl R,

          Would you mind explaining your point of view?

          From what I have seen it doesn’t matter how confident or bold a guy is, if a woman does not find him attractive then she will not accept his date request…

          What argument has you believing differently?

          (I’m talking about strangers meeting/approaching for the first time not people who know each other or celebrities.)

          Also in dating what do you mean blatant confidence works where quietly confident doesn’t? Would you mind giving an example of these two so I can conceptualize your meaning?

        6. Karl R

          Adrian asked me:
          “Would you mind explaining your point of view?
          “From what I have seen it doesn’t matter how confident or bold a guy is, if a woman does not find him attractive then she will not accept his date request…”

          The window for what we’re both discussing is narrow. We are literally talking about first impressions. If a woman’s first impression says that a man isn’t sufficiently attractive, then confidence won’t particularly help.

          But confidence can be part of that first impression of attractiveness … and that’s where it acts as a qualifier. There’s some conventional wisdom that says that women decide whether they’ll sleep with a man within the first 30 seconds. (I haven’t examined the science. Since men take less time, I’ve always assumed that 30 seconds is a high-side estimate.) So you have to be visibly more confident than other men within the first 30 seconds that the woman sees you.

          Adrian asked me:
          “What argument has you believing differently?”

          Personal experience.

          As I’ve mentioned before, I met my wife (and a fair number of other girlfriends) through dancing. Even back then (10+ years ago), I was a better-than-average dancer in the local community. This video would be an example of my skill level at that time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qETPFyxyfM

          (That’s not great dancing. But someone who doesn’t dance or whom is a novice dancer will lack the discernment to see the huge difference between that video and someone who is really good.)

          As part of my dancing, I’ve always included “flashy moves” (such as the one where I limbo under my own arm at 0:55). Even on a crowded dance floor, these draw attention to me.

          So, back when I was still picking up women, I was usually going out to a few spots where I was a regular. If I saw a woman that I was interested in, I would grab one of my regular dance partners, then hit the dance floor in a place where the woman would be able to easily spot me. Her first impression is based on my dancing, my apparent confidence, and my physical appearance … not my appearance alone.

          Before approaching the woman, I’d grab a few more dance partners and again dance somewhere where the woman would be able to see me. Therefore, in addition to her first impression of me, she also gets the impression that I’m popular with women, and that lots of women enjoy dancing with me. I would spent 10-15 minutes building the impression that I’m a guy who has options.

          And I would do all of that before approaching the woman (or even making eye contact with her).

          And when I finally approached the woman, I would ask her to dance … completely reversing the usual dynamic that most men experience. In doing so, I would maneuver the situation onto the ground where I feel confident (a dance floor). And dancing with a much more experienced dancer, particularly as a novice, is absolutely intimidating.

          Can you see how a visible display of confidence might be acting as a qualifier, rather than a disqualifier, in that circumstance?

        7. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Karl R said: But confidence can be part of that first impression of attractiveness … and that’s where it acts as a qualifier. There’s some conventional wisdom that says that women decide whether they’ll sleep with a man within the first 30 seconds. (I haven’t examined the science. Since men take less time, I’ve always assumed that 30 seconds is a high-side estimate.) So you have to be visibly more confident than other men within the first 30 seconds that the woman sees you.

          Although I think it takes women even less than 30 seconds to decide — maybe more like 5 or 10 — —–there’s a lot of truth to this. A friend’s nephew is about to turn 12, and I have never seen anyone with as much game. He just approaches young girls and charms the hell out of them. Here’s the kicker: He’s very small for his age, and his dad is about 5’2″. He probably won’t grow up to be “tall, dark and handsome” but he will have women eating out of his hand his entire life because he has confidence and game, which make up for a lot. Do you think the other 12-year-old boys are approaching girls? Just with that move alone he’s way head of his peers.

        8. shaukat

          @Karl R,

          Steven Tyler and Joe Perry are celebrities. If you control for fame and status, it’s not clear that their confidence and presence would cancel out their lack of facial aesthetics. Regarding your own anecdote, I have no doubt your dancing skills and persona played a role in triggering attraction, but it’s also not necessarily the case that they compensated for the complete absence of physical attraction–it’s quite possible all those women were, at least partially, already drawn to you in that sense. I agree that in very rare cases confidence can fully compensate for a lack of sex appeal, such instances are not at all the norm.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          Would either one of you want to have the face of Mick Jagger or Steven Tyler … without having the fame, stage presence, etc. that drew women to them?

          With these men, it has nothing to do with looks.  It has everything to do with primal triggers. Women are instinctively drawn to men with high status.  A woman will marry a high status man and sleep with high arousal men on the side.  Why do you think young, hot women date and marry much older guys? They are not doing it for arousal. They are doing it for comfort.

          The music world is rife with B-List musicians who took women away from A-List musicians because they were more physically attractive.  Richie Kotzen was basically a no-name guitarist when he replaced C. C. DeVille in Poison.  He got kicked out of the band for having sex with Poison drummer Rikki Rockett’s fiancee. Rikki was a founding member of the band with significantly more name recognition.

          Confidence is still a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing when very high status overrules physical attraction.  If a man is high status, but lacks confidence, women will rule him out. Confidence alone will never make a man who fails to meet a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness attractive.  He is going to be allowed into the friend zone at best.

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          Her first impression is based on my dancing, my apparent confidence, and my physical appearance … not my appearance alone.

          You just proved my assertion.  Had you not met her baseline requirement for attractiveness, nothing you did would have mattered.  That is the point I am making with the assertion.  Women do not date men who do not a) meet at least their baseline requirement for attractiveness, and b) demonstrate confidence, which makes confidence a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing.

          Now, the interesting part is that the further a man exceeds a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness, the less confidence comes into play.  Really hot guys can have zero game and get women. Every one of us has seen this dynamic in action on numerous occasions.  The more genetically gifted the man, the less effort he as to put into wooing a woman.  This dynamic also comes into play when a man has much higher SMV than the woman he is pursuing.  That is why guys tend to date down for sex.  Men do not date women with comparable SMVs for sex alone due to the amount of effort required to woo them.  Comparable SMV women require a game plan.

        11. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          “You just proved my assertion.  Had you not met her baseline requirement for attractiveness, nothing you did would have mattered.  That is the point I am making with the assertion.  Women do not date men who do not a) meet at least their baseline requirement for attractiveness, and b) demonstrate confidence, which makes confidence a disqualifier wrapped in qualifier clothing.”

          Put this is a newsletter and send it off to your subscribers.

        12. Marika

          YAG

          I’m asking you very nicely to please stop saying “women do.., women say.., women will…women think..”.

          These things are your opinions and come from your experiences. Even if you get them from a study, they may be general trends and don’t apply to all women. Much of what you say doesn’t apply to me.

          How ridiculous would it be if I claimed to know exactly what all men think, say, do.

        13. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Put this is a newsletter and send it off to your subscribers.

          Can you think of one guy you dated that you considered to be physically unattractive at first because you discovered that he had confidence?  I bet that the answer to that question is “no.”

          Women lie to themselves when they say that confidence is attractive. They do it to avoid feeling shallow. It is okay. We tell ourselves many lies to avoid feeling shallow. Few women are able to openly admit that they must find a man to be attractive before confidence factors into the equation.  In isolation, confidence is not attractive; therefore, it is not a qualifier.  I have yet to meet a woman who found an unattractive man to be attractive because of his level of confidence.  I have met many women who found an attractive man to be unattractive because he lacked confidence; hence, confidence can only disqualify a man a woman previously found to be attractive.

          Men have equally shallow tests.  For example, for me personally and a bunch of other guys, an attractive woman becomes less attractive if she is not feminine (I have met my fair share of physically attractive tomboys).  Does that make femininity a qualifier or a disqualifier?  It definitely makes me shallow, and I am not afraid to admit it.  I own my shallowness.  I and that group of guys could claim that femininity is attractive, but that would be a lie because few of us would date an unattractive woman simply because she was feminine.

        14. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I’m asking you very nicely to please stop saying “women do.., women say.., women will…women think..”.

          Okay, I will quantity my assertions from this point forward.  You may not think this way; however, there are exceptions to every rule, and a lot of behavior is country dependent.  I have conducted a metric truck load of social experiments on my dates over the years.  I also conducted experiments with my dating profiles in an attempt to identify general female behaviors and triggers.  I also observe how couples interact on first dates.  Not in a creepy way, but from that of an observer.  Every woman is slightly different, but female behavior is not as random as you want to believe.  There are predictable responses, which is what most of the PUA shtick is based upon.  These things may not work in your culture, but I can assure you that they work in North America.

        15. Karl R

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “With these men [Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler], it has nothing to do with looks.  It has everything to do with primal triggers. Women are instinctively drawn to men with high status.  A woman will marry a high status man and sleep with high arousal men on the side.”

          That’s laughable.

          Are you seriously trying to convince me that the dozens (or hundreds) of women who slept with these men were trying to marry them, and had no interest in sex with them otherwise?

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “The music world is rife with B-List musicians who took women away from A-List musicians because they were more physically attractive.”

          The world is also full of less-attractive men who “took women away” from more-attractive men. (Rupert Sanders is less attractive than Robert Pattinson, for example.)

          A woman is more likely to cheat if she’s bored, ignored, abused, etc. And that can happen regardless of how physically attractive her current partner is.

          I also like how you just flat out assume that you know why Deanna Eve cheated. How did you manage that? Mind reading? Your confirmation bias is making you sloppy.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “You just proved my assertion.  Had you not met her baseline requirement for attractiveness, nothing you did would have mattered.”

          More mind-reading? How do you know I met the “baseline requirement” for physical attractiveness? Maybe I was just kind of close to the baseline requirement.

          So … let’s add circular reasoning to the list of flaws with your arguments. (You haven’t committed circular reasoning yet. You’re about to. Because you’re going to claim that her interest in me proves that I met her baseline requirement for attractiveness.)

          On the other hand, you said, “Women do not date men who do not a) meet at least their baseline requirement for attractiveness,” which, by your own definition, would make attractiveness (or the lack thereof) a “disqualifier,” not a qualifier. The lack of attractiveness disqualifies a man, just like the lack of confidence does.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “Really hot guys can have zero game and get women.”

          Rather homely guys with little-to-no game can get women. I have a few married friends who meet that description.

          Moreover, you’ve repeatedly claimed that confidence (or the lack thereof) is a “disqualifier.” Now you’re trying to claim that a man with zero game isn’t getting disqualified, and you’re simultaneously claiming that, “Women do not date men who do not […] b) demonstrate confidence”. You can’t have it both ways.

          You can’t even maintain an internally consistent argument from one paragraph to the next.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “the further a man exceeds a woman’s baseline requirement for attractiveness, the less confidence comes into play.”

          The more attractive a man is, the less important confidence is to his success … AND … the more confident a man is, the less important attractiveness is to his success.

          You can call them both qualifiers. Or you can call them both disqualifiers. But you should stop tying yourself in knots to claim that one is a qualifier and the other is a disqualifier.

           

          Shaukat said:

          “Regarding your own anecdote, I have no doubt your dancing skills and persona played a role in triggering attraction, but it’s also not necessarily the case that they compensated for the complete absence of physical attraction–it’s quite possible all those women were, at least partially, already drawn to you in that sense.”

          Attraction/interest isn’t an all-or-nothing thing. If a woman thought I was physically repulsive, no amount of confidence would move that needle enough. If a woman thought I was physically a 4 or 5, I’d still have a chance (even though YAG swears that men who are a 4 have no chance of getting laid), due to confidence, game, etc. If a woman thought I was a 7, I probably could make it without extraordinary displays of confidence; things were already tilted in my favor.

          At any given time, all of a man’s (known) positive and negative traits are added together. Collectively, those traits either rule him in or rule him out. (The same is true for a woman.)

          Chronologically speaking, some traits become apparent more quickly than others. Physical appearance is usually one of the first traits we notice.

          If you hear a woman viciously bad-mouthing someone you care about, and then you turn around to discover the woman is drop-dead gorgeous, did she disqualify herself through her toxic attitude? Or would you overlook her personality, because she was physically attractive?

          Even if your first impression is based on seeing someone, it still won’t be based entirely on physical appearance. People give clues to their personality all of the time. You can read those clues in their facial expressions and body language … particularly if they’re interacting with other people.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “I have conducted a metric truck load of social experiments on my dates over the years.”

          Each of those experiments has one common denominator. You.

          You’re the experimenter. You bring your blind spots and biases into every one of your experiments. And in this thread (and others) you’ve repeatedly demonstrated confirmation bias.

          In your own relationships (where you’re also a common denominator), your observations may be true … at least as a self-fulfilling prophecy. But they’re not universal truths.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “I have yet to meet a woman who found an unattractive man to be attractive because of his level of confidence.”

          And as an example of your blind spot contaminating your experiments and observations …

          Do you believe physical attractiveness is binary? Or is it a continuous scale? (That’s a rhetorical question.)

          Men don’t fall into two categories (attractive and unattractive). There are men who fall in various spots in the middle. They’re not bad looking, but they’re not good looking either.

          You keep trying to prove your hypotheses by focusing exclusively on the two ends of the spectrum. Most men fall close to the middle (somewhere between “Wow!” and “Yuck!”).

          Confidence does a great job of making an average-looking guy stand out from the mass of other average-looking guys … even if you’re completely oblivious to that.

        16. shaukat

          Karl R, I agree with much of your post, except for some of this:

          Attraction/interest isn’t an all-or-nothing thing. If a woman thought I was physically repulsive, no amount of confidence would move that needle enough. If a woman thought I was physically a 4 or 5, I’d still have a chance

          “Physically repulsive” is a strong term, and it’s setting a very low bar. A woman doesn’t have to find you repulsive in order for you to fall below her looks threshold, at which point, as you say, confidence won’t help much, at least not in most cases. I realize these numbers are arbitrary, but imo you’re being generous using 4 as your cut-off. If a man can make himself a 6 (which most can) then confidence and game can help quite a bit. Now, it’s true that if anyone drops standards low enough they can find someone to date, but I’m going on the assumption that people try to date up.

          Finally, I think your points mainly apply to real life, not the online realm. At least in my experience, whenever I’ve seen an average to below average guy with a more attractive woman, it was always the case that they met through their social circle. When it comes to apps like tinder and bumble, I’d say most people do make snap judgements based on a binary–attractive/not attractive.

        17. Yet Another Guy

          @Shaukat

          When it comes to apps like tinder and bumble, I’d say most people do make snap judgements based on a binary–attractive/not attractive.

          I believe that that dynamic applies to all online dating services.  There is far less variation in attractiveness levels when couples meet online today versus in real life (that was not true during the early days of online dating in the nineties when all dates were basically blind dates due to the lack of digital photography).  How many American women can tell the difference between a 5’9″ guy and a 5’10” guy?  The average American woman is 5’4″.  Yet, 5’10” appears as the minimum male height on more American female profiles than any other height.  Would these women be just as likely to date a 5’9″ guy as a 5’10” guy if they met in real life? I believe they would; however, we dealing with a medium where people are maximizing their options, and women prefer taller to shorter (to be fair, men prefer thinner women).  People are trying to get the best deal for what they have to offer, which usually results in a “like” pairing when an enduring match is found.  People rarely leave the dating sites with a person who is less attractive, and if they do, they usually end up back on a dating site fairly quickly.  The sheer number of people on a dating site pretty much drives people to optimize. The reduced options found in real life result in people being more willing to settle for less than they desire when it comes to physical attractiveness.  The popularity of online dating and social media sites is why it is getting to be more difficult to find couples where one says, “How did he get her? Or how did she get him?”  Those pairings used to be a lot more common than they are today.

        18. Karl R

          shaukat said:

          “‘Physically repulsive’ is a strong term, and it’s setting a very low bar. A woman doesn’t have to find you repulsive in order for you to fall below her looks threshold, at which point, as you say, confidence won’t help much, at least not in most cases.”

          shaukat,

          It seems that you agree that confidence helps some, at least in some cases, even if a man falls below a woman’s physical appearance threshold. That stands in direct contrast to YAG, who keeps asserting that confidence doesn’t help at all, in any case, if a man falls below a woman’s physical appearance threshold.

           

          shaukat said:

          “I realize these numbers are arbitrary, but imo you’re being generous using 4 as your cut-off. If a man can make himself a 6 (which most can) then confidence and game can help quite a bit.”

          According to OkCupid, women rated 80% of men “below average.” (They deleted the blog post, but I found a reprint of the graph here.) What makes you think that “most” men can make themselves into a 6? Your belief appears to be contradicted by the available evidence.

          According to U.S. Census data, over 90% of men eventually get married. So there’s a huge number of men who are below average in physical attractiveness, and they find someone anyway.

          Maybe they do it through confidence, maybe they do it without confidence … but the numbers say that it happens.

           

          shaukat said:

          “Finally, I think your points mainly apply to real life, not the online realm. […] When it comes to apps like tinder and bumble, I’d say most people do make snap judgements based on a binary–attractive/not attractive.”

          I agree completely. But in this case, the judgment isn’t based on your looks. It’s based on your photo. (Swap out your normal photo for one where you look terrible … or for the photo of an ugly person … and watch your results take a nosedive.)

          OkCupid looked at the metadata behind profile photos, where they got into the details of the type of camera, the depth of field, use of flash, etc.

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          Are you seriously trying to convince me that the dozens (or hundreds) of women who slept with these men were trying to marry them, and had no interest in sex with them otherwise?

          A lot of women sleep with unattractive celebrities to able to say that they slept with a celebrity.

          More mind-reading? How do you know I met the “baseline requirement” for physical attractiveness? Maybe I was just kind of close to the baseline requirement.You can ignore reality. If you were unattractive to her, your confidence would have never factored into the equation.  All one has to do is watch a confident approach a woman who does not find him to be attractive.  She will usually be polite as long as he is not rude, but she is giving him no indication that his attention is desired.

          On the other hand, you said, “Women do not date men who do not a) meet at least their baseline requirement for attractiveness,” which, by your own definition, would make attractiveness (or the lack thereof) a “disqualifier,” not a qualifier. The lack of attractiveness disqualifies a man, just like the lack of confidence does.Attractiveness is the ultimate disqualifer.  You will receive no argument from me on that one. Once again, show me a man who a woman found to be unattractive to the point of disinterest prior to his confidence being exhibited and I will rest my case.  Are there cases where confidence can help a man who is borderline?  Absolutely!  However, in most cases, confidence in the absence of physical attraction does nothing, and more often than not, lack of confidence is an attraction killer when a guy merely meets a woman’s baseline level of attractiveness.  The further a man exceeds a woman’s baseline, the less confidence factors into the equation.

          Rather homely guys with little-to-no game can get women. I have a few married friends who meet that description.

          I bet that their wives are the female equivalent.  Homely women with little in the way of flirting/seduction skills settle for what they can obtain. Their attraction baselines are much lower.

          Moreover, you’ve repeatedly claimed that confidence (or the lack thereof) is a “disqualifier.” Now you’re trying to claim that a man with zero game isn’t getting disqualified, and you’re simultaneously claiming that, “Women do not date men who do not […] b) demonstrate confidence”. You can’t have it both ways.

          Watch what happens when a tall, extremely attractive man walks into a room of women.  Game and confidence does not factor into the equation.   That guy can trip all over himself and women continue to stare, often ignoring their dates.  This reaction is significantly pronounced in younger women.  Older women have learned to be more cautious with extremely attractive men.

          You can’t even maintain an internally consistent argument from one paragraph to the next.

          No, your own biases are preventing you from seeing this reality.  You and I have lived very different lives.  I can guarantee that you have not witnessed the female behavior I have in my lifetime. In fact, you would be shocked to see how some women who put on a good face in public behave when no one is looking.  Has a woman made a booty call to you immediately after being dropped off by another guy who was sincerely attempting to woo her?  Have you slept with other guy’s girlfriends, fiancees, and wives knowing that these women were attached?  That used to be my life before I married.  I had no conscious.  It was all about me.  I am not proud of the way I behaved, but there is nothing that I can do to right those wrongs.  Guys who behave like the man I was during that period is why I am terrified for my daughters.  All I can do is warn my girls.  They are going to have to make their own mistakes. Hopefully, they do not make big mistakes.

           ou can call them both qualifiers. Or you can call them both disqualifiers. But you should stop tying yourself in knots to claim that one is a qualifier and the other is a disqualifier.

          I never claimed that attractiveness was a qualifier.  That was your assumption.  Almost all of the tests that a woman runs on a man in whom she is interested are disqualifiers.  My argument is that women try to invert disqualifiers into qualifiers.  Women are afraid to admit that that they are just as shallow as men when it comes to looks, so they say things like confidence is attractive; however, confidence in the absence of physical attraction is not sufficient to make a man attractive for most women.  The only way a confident unattractive man gets a shot is when a woman’s prospects are limited. That is what is known as settling.

          What is the difference between validation and objectification? It is a fine line that depends on if a woman desires the man making the comments.  I have yet to see a woman accuse a guy in whom she is interested of objectifying her for commenting on her shape or beauty.  It is unwanted attention that gets classified as objectification.  Men get into trouble when they do not pick up on subtle cues that a polite woman is not interested.

          even though YAG swears that men who are a 4 have no chance of getting laid

          Now, you are putting words in my mouth. What I said is that incels are usually 4s or less (i.e., less than average attractiveness).  Can a 4 get laid? It depends on why is he a 4.  Is it poor grooming? Bad hygiene? Poor taste in clothing? Overweight? Awkwardness?  However, once we get to 3s and below, which is rather unattractive, those guys have a tough row to hoe.  I know a sixty-something male virgin who will probably die a virgin unless he pays for it.  This man is religious, so the probability of that happening is slim to none.  He has made peace with it.

        20. shaukat

          Karl, I think we’re generally in agreement on the confidence issue. I’ll clarify a couple of my other points though, especially in relation to the OK Cupid study.

          The women who were surveyed ranked 80% of men as ‘below average,’ as you said. There are two ways to interpret this based on the standard 10 point scale: 1). Either 80% of the men on that site were, by a reasonable definition, below a 5, or 2). Since 20% were judged as above average, any man who was below an 8/10 was categorized as ‘below average.’ The latter hypothesis is, imo, more consistent with certain observable empirical trends; for example, it confirms that when going by looks and only looks, women generally have a much higher threshold–it’s why it is far easier for an average woman to get casual sex than it is for the average guy (assuming he isn’t willing to lower standards to the point where attraction pretty much vanishes).

          The second position is also consistent with my claim that a significant number of men (I suppose I was exaggerating when I said most) can become a 6. The reason they don’t is because most people don’t bother to consistently engage in fitness activities or follow a proper diet, which can have a huge impact on one’s body and face (athletic build + defined facial features–combining the latter with proper grooming and style can make a big difference). The majority of the population is either obese or skinny-fat. I see the contrast when I compare most of the members of my gym with those I see just walking around the city.

          Finally, yes, I don’t doubt the census data and agree with your point that most people will pair off and get married at some point–it just takes some a lot longer:)

      2. 10.7.2
        Marika

        Hi Adrian

        I personally think a study is only as useful as the size & representativeness of its sample, the quality of the measurement instruments, how often it’s been replicated and refuted, the motivations of the author…from my understanding there are a few issues with that study.

        At the end of the day, though, we’re not dating general trends or data points, we’re dating real people.

        Please know, I’m not having a go at you for asking these interesting questions, I guess I just don’t see why the general trends of how some/many/most women or men act (or how people assume they act) are all that important when we are dating individuals.

        e.g. my ex cheated. I’m sure I could find a study that shows that men are more likely than women to cheat (if that’s true, just an example). How does that help me? What does that tell me? Why would I focus on that rather than just trying to avoid individuals who cheat. I really don’t get it…

        1. Adrian

          Hi Marika,

          You said, “Please know, I’m not having a go at you for asking these interesting questions”

          Oh I know Marika, this is why you are one of my favorite commentors. You look at a person’s overall track record and not just the current thing they say.

          Sometimes I get it wrong and sometimes I just don’t know, so I conversate and ask. Unfortunately the problem with our comments section is that we are so use to emotionally battling that we lost the sense of having friendly debates/discussions for the purpose of enlightenment, and not to just be right. If you say or ask something that is unpopular you are labeled. Wouldn’t it be better to say, “No it’s not like that and here’s why?”

          You have no clue how much I would love to go all “devil’s advocate” on GoWithTheFlow or Jeremy with certain tops because I know their answers and reasoning would help me iron out my ignorance and doubt. Karl R would probably just swat me like a fly, so you can’t use that approach with everyone.

          …   …   …

          As far as looking at data I agree with you but again many times I do just enjoy the good conversation with thought provoking questions. Though as a fellow blog-jadedness recovering addict I’m sure you know that lately that has become harder and hard to simply do.

    8. 10.8
      Adrian

      Hi Clare, Marika, Emily, Mrs. Happy, and Tom10

      I think something that is not being taken into consideration is that most women are already at least average when it comes to being attractive-that’s why it’s called average.

      So it’s kind of unfair to use generalized statements like “men prefer me without makeup” or “women aren’t using makeup to make themselves appear more attractive to guys.”

      It’s good to recognize that women are not trying to deceive men for evil reasons and it’s good to acknowledge that many women look about the same with or without makeup. However, it seems like people are also saying that the majority of women are in this same boat and that’s not true.

      For all of you who say that makeup doesn’t matter, or you never heard a guy say anything negative about YOUR looks without it, have you thought that maybe the answer is because YOU are already attractive enough without it? Maybe not a 10 or even a 7 but you are probably at least a 5, average-like most people. Women who do not have a naturally pretty or even average looking face do try to compete with other women using makeup. Many times it’s not just for a man, but for self-esteem reasons because yes women judge the looks of other women just like men do; it has nothing to do with dating.

      …   …   …

      Tom10

      The women who don’t know how to apply makeup are probably women who never NEEDED to learn. Do you honestly think that if a woman was constantly being negatively judged for her appearance that she wouldn’t quickly do whatever to try to reduce the social pressure of being an outcast?

      And anyone who says that girls aren’t ostracized by their peers in high school and beyond well into their 30’s because of their looks by both genders is full of BullSh**!

      There was a show that use to come on in the states about people getting plastic surgery, the majority of them were women and almost all of them wore makeup. These women were learning to doing things that increased their attractiveness and reduced their social pariah long before they could afford plastic surgery.

      Don’t let the emotions of the female commenters fool you, there is a HUGE difference between a girl who is a 6 that is naturally attractive but she wants to compete with an 8 verses the girl who is probably a 3 that doesn’t care about a boy she just wants to fit in.

      Remember our well intentioned female commentators often speak about getting plenty of dates and having normal interactions with their colleagues, as well as society as a whole. They are speaking from their own personal experiences and therefore I think they are unable to see how other women that struggle with their appearance view makeup. I myself did not pay attention to this difference either until I started to read Noone45 comments.

       

      1. 10.8.1
        Sandra

        Woman wear makeup to look fashionable and presentable. That includes very attractive women with clear skin. With the exception of teenagers, most women look pale and dull without it, good bone structure or not.  Full on glamour makeup is not always necessary, but shaped and filled in brows and lips are the minimum to look presentable.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Sandra,

          I am not denying what you say, ALL I am saying is that when a women loudly exclaims that men tell them that they look better without makeup so they assume that ALL men prefer ALL women without makeup they are NOT taking into consideration that THEY themselves are already attractive.

        2. sylvana

          @Adrian,

          sometimes I wonder if the men who told them they look better without makeup were the boyfriends (or other intimate partners) who don’t like getting makeup all over their own faces whenever they try to kiss the woman, rub against her, etc.

          Makeup, in a sense, prevents intimacy. What man wants to wear lipstick after he kisses, or worry about smearing hers, or taste the darn stuff in his mouth?

          What man wants to rub his cheek against foundation and powders? Or kiss the stuff (quick, affectionate kiss on the cheek or forehead)? How about taste it?

          Predictably, I don’t wear makeup. And I know I cringe every time a woman who does wear it tries to give me a hug. I always try my best not to let her face touch mine. Not only do I not want the goop on my own face, I also don’t like the way it feels against my skin. It just doesn’t feel like skin.

          I can’t begin to imagine trying to get intimate with that in any shape of form before they take it off. But maybe men are just more used to it.

          Overall, the reasons (and degree) of why women wear makeup boils down to how feminine a woman is, how secure/insecure she is, and how vain she is.

           

           

        3. Adrian

          Hi Sylvana,

          Wow! Great Point!

          I honestly didn’t take the makeup on clothes into consideration. As a teen there was this woman at my father’s office that just loved giving me hugs and candy but I hated it! She wore so much makeup that I always feared it would stain my shirt; especially when I wore white… I honestly forgot all about that until you said so.

          Here is something to take into consideration: Could another reason be that the men themselves have low self-esteems?

          I have personally never seen it but I have read often about women being with men who were insecure about dating attractive women and therefore those men got upset when those women did anything that increased their appearance. To the woman she was doing it for him and because she liked looking good but to the boyfriend she was just signaling to other-more attractive-guys that she was there.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I commented above about how age and life stage can affect how much time women put into hairstyle and makeup.  What most women I know do is strategic targeting when it comes to makeup and hairstyle.

          For myself, as a natural blonde, my eyelashes are nearly invisible and my eyebrows aren’t much better.  So I use mascara and pencil in my brows on most days.  I like using lip glosses since I live in a dry climate, so that goes on every day as well.  But I don’t like real obvious or heavy lip colors.  For special occasions I’ll add eye shadow and a light foundation.

          What I spend most of my money on is skincare products.  It can make a big difference, and I’d rather have good skin that I don’t feel I need to cover up, than spend a lot of time on concealer, highlighting, and conturing.  I was never very good at doing that anyway 😉

          I totally get your story about being afraid that the lady at your dad’s work would get makeup on you.  At work in the operating room I have to wear a surgical mask.  When the women at work who wear a lot of makeup and take off their mask, often by untying it and letting it hang down in front, it’s covered with makeup.  I think it’s really gross.

      2. 10.8.2
        Emily, the original

        Adrian,
        It’s good to recognize that women are not trying to deceive men for evil reasons
        Make-up is a signifier, pure and simple. Not for every woman, because not every woman wears it. But when a woman does her hair, her makeup and puts on an outfit that shows off her shape, she is saying, “I am ready to be approached. I am open for business.” And your side takes notice.
        For all of you who say that makeup doesn’t matter, or you never heard a guy say anything negative about YOUR looks without it, have you thought that maybe the answer is because YOU are already attractive enough without it? Maybe not a 10 or even a 7 but you are probably at least a 5, average-like most people. Women who do not have a naturally pretty or even average looking face do try to compete with other women using makeup.
        Average-looking women can do very well in the dating world, Adrian, so I’m not elaborating on all these ridiculous numbers. Men find a large swath of women appealing, as I learned from talking to men I used to work with. Find me an average-looking woman, and you’ll find at least a few guys who thinks she’s cute. (I know that’s a RADICAL idea, given the comments on this blog.)

        1. Tom10

           @ Emily, the original 10.8.2
          “Make-up is a signifier, pure and simple. Not for every woman, because not every woman wears it. But when a woman does her hair, her makeup and puts on an outfit that shows off her shape, she is saying, “I am ready to be approached. I am open for business.”
           
          Oh if only it were that simple…
           
          What we really need, Emily, are differently coloured post-its to put on our fore-heads; red for married/unavailable, amber for uncertain and green to signify open for business. That way guys would only approach all the women with green post-its on their heads. Badges might work either. Or rings…oh wait.
           
          Joking.
           
          But in all seriousness a man can’t assume a woman is open for business simply because of her appearance; many women like to dress up just to receive validatory compliments/feel better/sell a product; each individual has different motivations which can sometimes be difficult to interpret. Oftentimes people even deliberately disguise their intentions as it’s in their interest to do so (e.g. most guys on dating sites say they’re looking for relationships, even if they’re not, as telling the truth and stating they just want casual will result in a terrible response rate, conversely few women – other than religious types or foreigners – will openly state that they’re looking for someone to marry, as telling the truth will lead to lower response rates).
           
          @ Adrian 10.8
          “The women who don’t know how to apply makeup are probably women who never NEEDED to learn”
           
          Well no-one really needs to learn per se; rather their desire to learn how to apply it never exceeded their desire to do so, hence, they didn’t. No-one’s gonna die with poor make-up skills. Lol.
           
          “Do you honestly think that if a woman was constantly being negatively judged for her appearance that she wouldn’t quickly do whatever to try to reduce the social pressure of being an outcast?”
           
          I dunno; how is anyone to know the real reason we were dumped, cut-off or faded-out? We can’t because almost no-one tells us; they simply either disappear or make up a weak excuse and move on, leaving us to wonder was it the way we looked (nah, surely couldn’t be that!) or something we did. So mostly people simply don’t know why they’re being negatively judged…because no-one told them.
           
          All we can do is keep mixing up the variables until we see what produces the results we wish to achieve.
           
          “And anyone who says that girls aren’t ostracized by their peers in high school and beyond well into their 30’s because of their looks by both genders is full of BullSh**!”
           
          Well that’s harsh. You’d hardly ostracize them because of their looks would you? But I think I know what you mean; everyone wants to be buddies with the hot kids as they think that that’ll make them hot too by association is it? I’ve actually heard of a phenomenon where some people prefer less-attractive mates for contrast purposes; if you’re better looking than your mates then you’ll be guaranteed to be centre of attention every time you go out. Lol.
           
          “There was a show that use to come on in the states about people getting plastic surgery, the majority of them were women and almost all of them wore makeup. These women were learning to doing things that increased their attractiveness and reduced their social pariah long before they could afford plastic surgery.”
           
          I remember that show well; for what it’s worth I thought it was grossly exploitative. It essentially featured a cast of insecure people and then subjected them to a litany of unnecessary surgical procedures for our bemusement. Just appalling really.
           
          “Don’t let the emotions of the female commenters fool you, there is a HUGE difference between a girl who is a 6 that is naturally attractive but she wants to compete with an 8 verses the girl who is probably a 3 that doesn’t care about a boy she just wants to fit in.
           
          They are speaking from their own personal experiences and therefore I think they are unable to see how other women that struggle with their appearance view makeup.”
           
          Not sure I understand your point here.
           
          I don’t think the desires and motivations of a “6” are all that different from an “8” or a “3” really; we’re all human with the same desire to be “happy” (whatever that means). What differs will be the way we experience dating/rejection and the steps we need to undertake to achieve our dating goals. Make-up is simply one tool to go up a step (or three) in the ladder (or cheat their genetics as YAG would say); therefore, one’s need for it is relative to the results they obtain. Therefore female >7s don’t need to worry about it as they’ll attract and keep men regardless (assuming they’re satisfied with <8 guys), whereas <7 women do need to learn it as they’re the ones who’ll see tangible results?
           
          Is that kinda what you’re saying?

        2. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          What we really need, Emily, are differently coloured post-its to put on our fore-heads; red for married/unavailable, amber for uncertain and green to signify open for business. That way guys would only approach all the women with green post-its on their heads. Badges might work either. Or rings…oh wait.HA! Men need to do the same thing. Notes that say “Just flirting with you for sport,” ” Have no intention of ever asking you out,” or “Will ask you out but just for an evening of porkopolis.”    🙂  

          But in all seriousness a man can’t assume a woman is open for business simply because of her appearance; many women like to dress up just to receive validatory compliments/feel better/sell a product; each individual has different motivations which can sometimes be difficult to interpret. 

          Yes, very true, although in my younger years, when I did the hair, the makeup, the skirt, the heels, it was always to attract men. I don’t understand women who dress up for the approval of their female friends, but I’m not the best woman to ask as most of my friends at that time in my life were older woman, gay men or straight men I didn’t want to have sex with. 🙂

          Now that I’m 110, I still wear make-up to work everyday but I will admit efforts to “sex it up” no longer enter the equation as most of the men aren’t available.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Emily and Tom10,

          Emily said, “Average-looking women can do very well in the dating world. Men find a large swath of women appealing. Find me an average-looking woman, and you’ll find at least a few guys who thinks she’s cute. ”

          This is my point Emily so I am not sure if you were disagreeing with me or not.

          I was specifically addressing the comments about women hearing from men all the time that they don’t want them to wear makeup or the comments from women that say there is not real physical change when they wear makeup and my point was, are these women taking into consideration that they look just as attractive with makeup as without it?

          …   …   …

          Tom10

          You said many things that I want to address but I don’t want this growing to long. So instead I will just say that if you have never seen a women rejected socially as well as romantically by men and women for her looks then I’m actually happy! It gives me faith in humanity.

          I have seen it often. The main difference would be age and gender. Younger men belittle openly while older men do it subtly-neither would date her. Younger women do it openly while older women allow it to morph into a pity-which I think is just as bad.

          Anyway all I’m saying is that women who have never struggled in dating because of their looks will not have the same views on things as a woman who has. I obviously don’t’ agree with many things YAG says but I hate when people pretend that everything he says is not really happening-same with Gala.

          There are women who use makeup to appear more attractive to men, and there are women who DON’T look as attractive without it… Oh and like YAG I have seen a few women look different without makeup…

        4. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          I was specifically addressing the comments about women hearing from men all the time that they don’t want them to wear makeup or the comments from women that say there is not real physical change when they wear makeup and my point was, are these women taking into consideration that they look just as attractive with makeup as without it?

          I’ve never had a man tell me not to wear makeup nor has one ever made a comment about my looking different without it, but I do think I look better with it. Most women do. I do have a guy friend who said his girlfriend wore makeup when they first started dating and then no longer did after a few months into the relationship. He wanted her to. To him, it meant she was making an effort. As I wrote to Tom10, makeup is a signifer. And I don’t mean he wanted her to wear tons of makeup but to just spend a little extra time getting ready if they were going to go out.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “but I do think I look better with it. Most women do. 

          Careful Emily that is shallow misogynistic talk! You don’t’ want to be labeled a traitor or a YAG clone do you?

          Okay I’m bad at snarky-but I’m working on it (^_^).

          I do agree with Clare, many women don’t know how to apply makeup. I also think most guys don’t even pay attention unless it’s something like this blog where it’s the subject of conversation. I’ve seen a few girls look completely different without makeup (as in we all thought it was a different person) but that’s rare and even then after about 10 minutes no one even thought about it anymore.

          If a guy truly likes a girl her look with or without make would not bother him; and for the guys who it does bother 99% would be too nice to tell her that is the true reason he doesn’t want to be with her-so overall this is a interesting little debate but it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of dating.

        6. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          Careful Emily that is shallow misogynistic talk! You don’t’ want to be labeled a traitor or a YAG clone do you?
          Okay I’m bad at snarky-but I’m working on it (^_^).
          Traitor to whom …. my gender? I don’t feel any particular loyalty one way or the other. Most women past the age of 18 have a “dicks before chicks” sensibility anyway, don’t they? (Even if they won’t admit it.)  🙂

          Makeup is an enhancer. It’s like a guy having the right haircut and clothes. It helps someone’s appearance, but it’s certainly not required.

      3. 10.8.3
        KK

        “The women who don’t know how to apply makeup are probably women who never NEEDED to learn”.

        Adrian,

        I’m guessing when you were growing up, your school didn’t have any female p.e. coaches. 😉

        1. Adrian

          Hi KK,

          Yes I have never had a female gym teacher. What’s the connection with my statement?

      4. 10.8.4
        Noone45

        “. I myself did not pay attention to this difference either until I started to read Noone45 comments.”

        You’ve got the wrong idea of me. I like makeup as an artistic expression. When I go out for special occasions,  I do unnatural lipstick and such. I dont care how it goes over socially. I frequently.go to work with no makeup. At work, I only do light makeup. I’m not stupid enough to compete with a 6. I just dont compete. I work in a client facing role, so maybe I should wear makeup more, but no one complains. I’ve never felt the need to get plastic surgery. I accept that I’m ugly. Never kept me back at work since I’ve always been smart, but I admit it was hell up until I was 16. When I hit that age, the bullying stopped. I have friends and such, I’ll live.

        1. Adrian

          Hi Noone45,

          I agree not everyone wears makeup to attract a men.

    9. 10.9
      SparklingEmerald

      As long as we are insisting on genetic honesty, we women should not only refuse to wear make up EVER, but we should also stop shaving our legs, washing our hair and brushing our teeth. Orthodontia should also be outlawed, as it covers up a genetic pre-disposition to crooked teeth.  After all, body hair is a good indicator of estrogen/testosterone levels, so when a women shave her legs and under arms, she is being deceitful about her hormone levels.  And if she has dark hair on her upper lip, electrolysis should be a no-no.  Because again that is deception.  Skin tight shorts and a muscle shirt will be the new first date outfit, for both men and women. And knowing what we know about the role of pheremones in the mating game, deodorant and perfumes are OUT.  Also, the taste of one’s saliva also gives clues to the immune system, so mouthwash and breath mints are OUT.No more cutting, washing, conditioning or dying hair either.  Why would you want to deceive someone on the dryness or oilyness of your hair, or the flakiness of your scalp ?Hmmm, really not sure if men should be required to stop shaving or be clean shaven at all times.  Women are genetically entitled to know just how hairy a man’s face would be au naturel, but then again, a beard will hide the shape of his jawline, another important genetic indicator.Just think of all the money we can save with this new genetic honesty fad when we can all throw out our deodorant, shampoo, breathmints, razors, etc.  

      1. 10.9.1
        jo

        SparklingEmerald, perfect response. This is why we should ignore men who try to lecture us on what we should or should not do with our bodies. We know our bodies best and how we want to present them to the world. No one else, except those who care about what’s good for us (and not just for themselves), should get a say.

        1. Adrian

          Hello Jo,

          You said, “ This is why we should ignore men who try to lecture us on what we should or should not do with our bodies

          Yes you should ignore men like that but has any man in this post said or even hinted at what a woman should do with her body?

      2. 10.9.2
        N

        This. 😊

  11. 11
    Brenda

    Weight gain is frequently related to eating habits and laziness, but not always. There are health conditions that can drastically change people’s looks in a way that they have zero control over. Suppose this guy developed a thyroid disease or became reliant on a medication that made him get fat. Would anyone advocate dumping him? Attraction is important in a relationship, but I think this woman needs to ask herself why her attraction to him is so heavily tied into his aesthetic appearance. When you truly love someone for who they are in an unconditional way, it doesn’t matter what they look like. Full stop. There are obese/disfigured/disabled people out there who are in wonderful relationships and marriages. She may claim that this guy is the man of her dreams, but if a change in his weight could make her “embarrassed” and consider walking away, it doesn’t sound like she’s really that in love with him.

  12. 12
    Olongapo

    @The Original Poster. if you’re reading this, your rationalization hamster is on steroids and methamphetamine.  I think you’ve already made the decision to leave based on the contempt oozing out of your letter.  You’ve crossed that line to being embarrassed to be seen in public with him and your own innate solipism will not allow you to take any personal responsibility for your own actions.  You’re right.

    It’s all his fault.

    Do him a favor and dump him now.  Don’t explain.  Don’t rationalize, and for God’s sake, quit blaming him.  Give him that wake-up call he needs by losing his hot and sexy fiance.  It will be his last gift from you.  Let him alone and you go find yourself  “Eat.Love.Pray.” style and sample that never ending buffet of men who actually take care of themselves and will find you irresistible. I think this one is all on you.  He’s an albatross hanging around your neck that’s keeping you from achieving truly great things.

    Do him a favor and let him go.

  13. 13
    Marika

    “Paging YAG to the record aisle for cleanup..I repeat, broken records..”

    Sorry, conscience Jeremy, in a cheeky mood ☺

    1. 13.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,
      “Paging YAG to the record aisle for cleanup..I repeat, broken records..”
      Sorry, conscience Jeremy, in a cheeky mood ☺
      I almost responded to him with, “Bitter, party of one, right this way …. “    🙂

       

      1. 13.1.1
        Marika

        Emily 

        Sometimes..resistance is futile.. 😉

        All jokes aside, the subtext of these comments is mostly ‘women are clueless ididots’. It’s counterproductive – who takes on advice or the POV of someone who does nothing but criticize?

        Now..where’s my makeup/deception bag..??

        1. sylvana

          Emily, Marika,

          Deception bag… LOL

          But why go through all that trouble. Let’s just give him another round of bows and praises of “we’re not worthy”. The poor man obviously needs it.

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Marika,
          All jokes aside, the subtext of these comments is mostly ‘women are clueless ididots’. It’s counterproductive – who takes on advice or the POV of someone who does nothing but criticize?
          Or women are deceptive sluts trying lure men to their emotional and financial doom. It’s SO tiring, and if the tone is this obvious in posts on a website, can you imagine how it must be in person? There’s no way women don’t pick up on it. 

          Now..where’s my makeup/deception bag..??

          Yeah, and where’s my padded bra, waist minimizer and butt pad? HA   🙂

        3. Noone45

          I’ll counter that I think humans in general are irredeemably stupid.  As depressing as it is, most humans aren’t thinking about why they do what they do. I think its hilarious how many people are trying to find their place in the hierarchy of beauty and slamming those who dare not consider it. I’ve always been ugly, so I’m outside of these worries.

          Perhaps humans can’t change. Humans are slowly destroying themselves and their habitat,  yet they seem to think they have everything figured out. Perhaps this is down to Jungian psychology. Most humans are sensing types,  hierarchy is important for them. For the intuitive humans, not so much. Either way, damn, I thought I was dark, some people here put me to shame 🤣

        4. Tom10

          @ Noone45
          “most humans aren’t thinking about why they do what they do. I think its hilarious how many people are trying to find their place in the hierarchy of beauty and slamming those who dare not consider it”
           
          Humans are slowly destroying themselves and their habitat,  yet they seem to think they have everything figured out. Perhaps this is down to Jungian psychology. Most humans are sensing types,  hierarchy is important for them. For the intuitive humans, not so much.”
           
           
          I agree and disagree.
           
          Most humans indeed probably aren’t thinking about why they do what they do and yes hierarchy is a factor for many/some; however, these are deep-rooted instincts rooted common to many, if not most, animals that live in social groups.
           
          Exactly the same hierarchical behavior can be observed in groups of lions, hyenas, monkeys, wolves, African Wild dogs etc. (I’m sure there are many more but these are the only ones I’ve “studied,” i.e. examined their behavior on TV/YouTube).
           
          All I need to do now is find another animal that also tries to apply make-up to deceive their suitors and it’ll prove that YAG’s theory is indeed correct. Lol.

        5. Noone45

          @Tom

          There are actually birds that engage in that sort of behavior.  Either way, if you are going to disagree with decades of personality research, you should post some pedigree.  Approximately a quarter of people tend toward a more intuitive personality. Intuitive (or openness on the big 5) is strongly indicative of a person who tends to not be fussed with hierarchy,  authority, etc. Not all humans are ruled by their base instincts.  Unfortunately,  they are vastly outnumbered by those who are. I’d prefer to be dumb and pretty personally. It’s a better mating strategy for women.

        6. Buck25

          “Now…where’s my makeup/deception bag…??”

          “Yeah, and where my padded bra, waist minimizer and butt pad?”

          Marika and Emily,

          For all the guys here complaining about women’s makeup, etc.who find too many women unattractive without makeup, etc., here’s a theme song:

          “I like my women a little on the trashy side,             Where they wear their clothes too tight and their hair is dyed!                                                                 Too much lipstick and, uh, too much rouge, gets me excited, gets me feelin’ confused!                        Yeah, I like my women a little on the trashy side!”

          I wonder if some guys here may have been dating some trashy women? What do y’ll think?

        7. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I wonder if some guys here may have been dating some trashy women? What do y’ll think?

          Actually, this topic is redundant. We’ve talked about makeup and how much money women spend on their appearance in other posts. We’ll never agree, so let’s move on.

          Let’s talk about something more interesting. How are you? Tell me about the women you’ve been dating/having sex with? 🙂 How are those S…L…O…W seductions going? Any W0W-ME-WOMEN who have aggressively thrown you against the wall?   🙂

    2. 13.2
      Clare

      Marika & Emily,

      I had a stopwatch going in my mind wondering how long it would take YAG to start droning on about higher SMVs, and oh look….

      1. 13.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Clare

        All I am doing is holding a mirror up, so that you and the other ladies can see how men see women. Women refuse to accept that they do manipulative things such as using makeup, hair styles, nail polish, and clothes to compete with more naturally attractive women.  You can claim that is all about a woman making herself more attractive, but if men engaged in the same kind of behavior, women would cry foul (e.g., men who wear lifts).  There is no acceptable equivalent male behavior.  It is impossible for a male 6 to compete with a male 8 for a female 8. That is why men are painfully aware of where they rank within the male hierarchy. Most men know when a woman is out of their league.  I cannot say the same thing about women with respect to men they can obtain. We can agree to disagree on this subject.

         

        1. Clare

          YAG,

          Actually what you’re doing is coming across as insufferably pompous, week after week, and attributing those same qualities to all men.

          “How dare you make eye contact with me you sub-human SMV 6.5!” This is essentially how your posts read.

          Perhaps this is how men in the United States are. What the hell do I know. I’m just a lowly South African. And clearly the experience of people in the other 194 countries in the world count for nothing.

        2. shaukat

          It is impossible for a male 6 to compete with a male 8 for a female 8.

          There is a way, but it’s quite time consuming: drop to sub-12% body fat, gain muscle, acquire style and charisma:)

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Shaukat

          There is a way, but it’s quite time consuming: drop to sub-12% body fat, gain muscle, acquire style and charisma:)

          That is what the PUA community spews, but does it really work?  I would bet that plastic surgery is more effective for most guys.

          For most guys, style, charisma, and game only work when they have the basic genetics to be attractive. We have all known a guy who was bit of an ugly duckling when he was younger who turned out to be swan as an adult because he got his act together. That is the result of untapped genetics combined with losing goofiness and learning how to dress and groom nine times out of ten.

          I have been involved in bodybuilding and resistance training most of my life. I am a mesomorph. I was 6% body fat at 220 to 225 pounds (non-dehydrated) the second half of my twenties.  If a person is a mesomorph (broad shoulders, narrow waist, v-shaped back), then he/she will benefit immensely from lifting.  If a person is an ectomorph (thin, small shoulders, a.k.a. “hard gainer”), then short of the use of anabolic steriods, lifting to gain muscle mass is going to be an uphill battle.   If a person is an endomorph, muscle gain is not difficult, but fat management is going to be a challenge.  A good diet can go a long way, but cutting agents are better at preserving muscle while shedding fat.  What I am trying to say here is that lifting also benefits genetics, and genetics are what make us physically attractive.

  14. 14
    Marika

    Adrian said:

     I don’t’ think the average woman that wears makeup is that different without it and I definitely don’t think these women are being maliciously deceptive.

    Yes, that’s the point I was trying to make with my Dolly story. At the age women are generally socialised into wearing makeup, they aren’t at all thinking about how to deceive a future man online into thinking they are a 10. They are more likely to be thinking something like “I hate my pimples, my pale skin, my mole, hopefully this makeup will make me feel better about myself”.

    YAG:

    That story about you losing interest in the woman says as much about you as it does about women/that woman/the make up industry.

    1. 14.1
      shaukat

      YAG:‘That story about you losing interest in the woman says as much about you as it does about women/that woman/the make up industry.’ I disagree, Marika. If the make-up job was as extreme as the examples Karl and YAG posted, then I think it would be understandable if a guy lost interest (in terms of physical attraction) once her natural look was revealed after a few dates. It would be like you going out with a guy who wore a baseball cap for the first few dates, and then took it off to reveal a massively receding hairline.

      1. 14.1.1
        Marika

        Hi Shaukat

        I actually don’t mind baldness. The guy before the last one was bald. Although, admittedly, I prefer if they shave their whole head.

        My point was more that he always jumps on women for being shallow, but he’s impossibly shallow himself. Maybe the lady wore so much makeup as she picked up on this.

        If it were that extreme..maybe, but as a few have pointed out, not many women are that talented with the makeup brush.

        1. Nissa

          I would take bald over a zz top haircut any day. In fact, I have a major crush on Mark Strong from the Kingsman movie.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I was a twenty-something when I met that woman.  I do not know much about makeup at the point in time.  The way she applied it looked so natural.  Makeup does not need to be caked on. The sum of a collection of subtle changes can make a dramatic difference in a woman’s appearance.

          I am shallow when it comes to looks. I have never denied it. I have no interest in dating overweight or unfit women.  I have no interest in dating women who are less than a natural 7 in looks.  Yet, their are women who fit into these categories who honestly think that they stand a chance with me.  I am never unkind when a woman who I would not date flirts with me.  However, if the gender roles were reversed, only an inexperienced man would attempt the same thing in real life.  Guys get tired of having to put in a 911 call to their friends to douse the flames.

          The problem here is that you are comparing your culture to the culture of the United Status. Your culture is different.  American men and women are different than men and women in your country.  American women are very selective when it comes to looks.  Their own natural looks never appear to factor into the equation.

  15. 15
    Elle 1

    It is interesting that the OP is not asking “Should I stay or should I leave” but “What can I do to regain back the physical attraction” to the man she is planning to marry.

    Maybe that ship has sailed and the answer is to not stand on the dock futilely trying to call the boat back into the (familiar) harbor.

    It reminds me of the song “If You Could Read My Mind” by Gordon Lightfoot: “I don’t know where we went wrong, but the feeling’s gone and I just can’t get it back.”

    I would suggest that the OP break up with him, focus on getting back into shape herself, and see if absence makes the heart grow fonder, or if it is out of sight, out of mind.

    Maybe some time apart will help clarify things for both of them before committing to marriage. Their lifestyle together seems to be dragging both of them down; neither one of them is living their best life.

    Starting over again when you thought you had found Mr. Right is disappointing and sad. But I don’t see this relationship leading to a happy bride on her wedding day, let alone a happy marriage.

    1. 15.1
      Adrian

      Hello Elle 1,

      Good point! Maybe the letter writer is actually really insecure and she is afraid that she could not get someone better or she just doesn’t want to get back out there because it could take years.

  16. 16
    SSJ4Gogeta

    Why is she blaming her partner for her own weight gain and laziness? Her lack of introspection is interesting…

    I sometimes feel that he does not deserve to have a hot fiancé…”

    Pretty telling statement to make. Sadly, I think a lot of women hold these kinds of views about their own self-worth and what kind of men “deserve” them. Kind of makes me think what kind of man she would feel she would feel entitled to (yep, throwing that golden word in there) if she had the body of a 400m athlete and the face of a supermodel.

  17. 17
    Adrian

    Hello SSJ4Gogeta,

    You said, “I think a lot of women hold these kinds of views about their own self-worth and what kind of men “deserve” them.”

    I think most humans do not just women, then when reality hits they try to fight it. There was a dating documentary that came out a few years ago (the one the poster Yet Another Guy mentioned), in it they had a study where people matched up with others according to their SMV raking and their looks. One woman was shocked to discover that the men ranked where she thought she was didn’t feel the same.

    You said, “Kind of makes me think what kind of man she would feel she would feel entitled to (yep, throwing that golden word in there) if she had the body of a 400m athlete and the face of a supermodel.

    I will probably get stoned for saying this around the women here but most people (yes women to) date people on their physical level. The more attractive a person is the more they care about looks, the less they are the less they care about looks.

    1. 17.1
      SSJ4Gogeta

      Interesting study. Thanks for sharing.

  18. 18
    Marika

    Mrs Happy said:

    I never heard the term SMV or RMV before my late 30’s when I started reading this blog.  Never weighed my attractiveness (SMV) up against a partner’s. 

    Same. Maybe it’s an Aussie thing.. 😉

    I came here to learn more about men, but to be honest, I’m learning things I’d rather not know! That being said, to be fair, the SMV obsessed guys are a (vocal) minority. And some women have also said things on here which make my skin crawl….(as you well know, being on the receiving end of me being, um,..triggered!..: ). I agree with Tom that your response here was lovely and balanced.

    I put it on in 120 seconds in my car just as I enter the work carpark; I have it timed to the second, it’s such a waste of time and I just want to get in and dive into work. 

    How on earth did you manage to escape the socialisation that was Dolly and other similar mags?? Did you and your friends not sit around reading Dolly Doctor?? I must have a word to my parents..

    I thought based on a few things you had said about your social circle that you lived in one of two areas of Sydney, renowned for women walking around in Lu Lu Lemons so made up there is no chance they are going anywhere near a gym (I exaggerate, of course). Do you just socialise with these types of ladies, but do your own more low-key thing? My friend is like you (but she lives in a Greens voter kinda area, you get the idea). She wore a tiny bit of makeup hitting the clubs when we were in our 20s, but since, I’ve don’t think I’ve ever seen her in makeup or sexy/fancy clothes.

    She’s very happily married and met her husband in Egypt when they were probably both wearing something from Kathmandu. She’s a very secure person. I’m assuming you are too.

    1. 18.1
      Mrs Happy

      Funny.  Kathmandu the city, the little family super-packed stalls on the winding alleys, provided me with all my pashminas, but then I realised you meant the trade name outback store.

      I met my husband when he crashed into me, then dramatically atop me and both our bikes onto the concrete, on a bike ride.  It is not possible to be less groomed and less made up than during a sweaty Sydney summer bike ride wearing the compulsory unfashionable helmet, bright Target cotton singlet and lycra shorts worth all of $10 together, with hair tied back and melting sunscreen dripping from a stinky body. He says he loves that I don’t spend much time getting ready when we go out.  I picked perfectly for me (e.g. because he sees my grooming laziness as an asset).

      I don’t know why but I always miss the gestault, the fashion of the time and what I should be aware of for my developmental stage (e.g. Dolly, makeup, which jeans to wear, Friends, Seinfeld).  I always come to these things decades after everyone else.  Maybe because I’ve never owned a TV and have internet ad blockers and don’t buy magazines and didn’t spend much time with girlfriends during high school years.  (The first I heard of Alec Minassian was Jeremy posting it here on Evan’s blog.  This happens to me all the time.)  Then at uni I was friends with boys, there were lots of boys in my course and I hung around them and boyfriends, so didn’t often do the whole girl thing.  At my work I’m the only female at my level, all my colleagues are male.  I’m used to not being around women much and don’t really fit in with most of them but I trouble to fake it well enough they mostly don’t notice.  Sadly it all feels so superficial. (Thus the weirdness of my life post babies, because since then I’ve been surrounded by females, mothers at all the playgroups/toddler gym/swimming classes/preschool functions etc.)

      My geographical life now is mainly a function of me becoming wealthy so moving close to the upmarket private schools for the sake of my children’s education.  But after a number of years trying to be friendly with local women I have realised over the past year that I’ve very little in common with them.  Truth be told I tend to prefer the fewer emotional dramatics, less competition over beauty and figures (figures bodily physical and income), and increased logic and intelligence, of smart men as friends, rather than the school mum circle, with a few exceptions, so I socialise with just the 10 ladies like me, and all my pre-baby male friends and male colleagues.  I don’t do the gym-daily and live-off-hubby’s-wealth and give-up-your-career (WTF!!!WHY??? I spent 20 years to get to my career point) thing which they’ve all embraced post babies.  Conversations relegated to only the domestic circle bore me, and that’s mainly what stay-at-home mothers discuss, which is understandable.

      This year I’ve been doing a social experiment on my acquaintances and friends actually.  It’s still a work in process.  It’s rough and certainly won’t meet Jeremy’s statistical standards.

      Marika, some of my attitude is a result of an emotionally unwell pathological mother who made very sure never to tell my I was pretty and saw me as a threat from the moment I started puberty.  It’s created a nicely oblivious disregard for my beauty within myself, but at a significant cost of receiving no maternal love or pride for any achievement, genetic or otherwise, growing up.

      I smiled to read Adrian’s theories that are mostly correct but he forgot an important point (not his fault, he has never lived it as a female, and is still developing abstract thinking).  Good looking people think and talk a lot about their beauty and bodies, healthy food, fashion and fitness.  If you aren’t interested in numerous repeated such conversations on dates, then one daily strategy a natural say 8 SMV woman can undertake, is no/little makeup and average fashion choices and low hair effort, so the other guys with qualities she is interested in (say someone who can discuss the work of the winners of the Fields medal) ask her out.  Reading Dolly and learning makeup skills and wasting time styling hair daily can lead to a negative outcome if you don’t prioritise looks in a partner because the wrong people (wrong for you) will ask you out.  Just sayin’. You know, as a theory.

      I owe it to my name to chase happiness, after all.

      1. 18.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Mrs. Happy,

        You said, “He says he loves that I don’t spend much time getting ready when we go out. I picked perfectly for me.

        I was telling Sylvana that one possible reason men could say they don’t want their women to wear makeup is because of insecurity (the more beautiful she makes herself the more he fears someone more attractive could notice and try to win her over).

        However, after reading your comment about your husband I have an additional hypothesis: could it be that some men tell their women not to wear makeup as a compliment? It doesn’t matter if he actually does feel she looks better with it on, he thinks that telling her that she does look better without or saying she doesn’t need it could be his way of saying “I think you are beautiful just the way you are and I accept you flaws and all?”… It’s just a thought

        You said, “At my work I’m the only female at my level, all my colleagues are male

        This is my exact situation except I’m the only male at my level with all female colleagues and they are all at least 20 years older. I would love to exchange stories and opinions on this one day with you. I experience everything from being treated like a kid because I’m so young “to them,” to being expected to hold ALL the answers about ALL male activity because I am a man… “Why do guys always…?”

        You said, “This year I’ve been doing a social experiment on my acquaintances and friends actually.

        If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly is your experiment? If you don’t want to answer then I would ask what motivated it? Whenever I do a social experiment it is usually with random people since I know my friends habits and mindsets-it’s easy to predict what they will say or do.

        You said, “some of my attitude is a result of an emotionally unwell pathological mother who made very sure never to tell my I was pretty and saw me as a threat from the moment I started puberty.”

        Again if you don’t mind me asking, how did you know that your mom saw you as a threat? Also how has all that affected the way you raise your children?

        Like I’ve spoke to Marika about my parents were workaholics, so I had every material thing I could want but little to no personal time with them which is why I have an anxious attachment style. I see the affects of this on how I interact with my toddler niece and baby cousins, I smother them with hugs and praise as well as buying them lots of toys and when I was living in the same state I would volunteer to keep them on the weekends just so I could spend time around them… Plus who can resist fat baby cheeks!

        You said, “I smiled to read Adrian’s theories that are mostly correct but he forgot an important point (not his fault, he has never lived it as a female, and is still developing abstract thinking).  Good looking people think and talk a lot about their beauty and bodies, healthy food, fashion and fitness.

        Awww… You’re so sweet Mrs. Happy but haven’t you been reading the comments from the last few weeks? Women NEVER talk about things like looks and bodies or even really consider it when deciding if they should accept a date from a stranger-her first time ever seeing him she quickly bases her decision to go out with him on how kind and caring he is … The thought of letting physical features be her gauge is just all male shallow talk-shame on you.

        Sorry I can’t do snarky well but the push back on this whole SMV thing because ONE commenter is so draining! It’s like to prove him wrong everyone who admits that until they know a person looks are all they have to base their opinions on are just shallow misogynist.

        1. Mrs Happy

          Dear Adrian,

          your curiosity and eagerness to learn are such strengths.

          Yes you’re correct in that some men probably say “you look better without makeup” as a compliment.  I’ve good male friends who tell me honestly when we are alone that they prefer their female partners without makeup.  My guess is some women just don’t apply makeup well enough that it makes that much of a difference, and some men don’t like the gloopy feel/taste, or hate the caked-on look.  I think almost anyone under 18 looks better face-to-face without makeup.

          My hubby sees me for hours each week without makeup, hair styled, clothes on (we’re big on naked in this house), so putting on a whole lot of stuff just to go out to dinner with him for 2 hours…it’s kind of a weird thing to do in some ways (don’t worry I put clothes on at least to go out).

          Re work: I like being the only female.  The secretaries are women, I chat with them sometimes.  I’m used to being in the minority.  I have used it to my advantage in the workplace more often than had it be a disadvantage but both occur. I’d say, run with it.

          The social experiment I’ve mentioned in passing before.  It partly resulted from something either Emily, The Original (ETO) or Marika (M) wrote about 8 months ago.  We were discussing friendships, relationships, and socialising, and one of them wrote that she spends time with people who show up.

          I’d just been diagnosed with cancer (mild, surgery, cured now) and been floored that people I’d considered close long term friends hadn’t supported me.  Knew the diagnosis, but had not telephoned or visited.  Some of them have been friends for 15+ years.  One woman who until January I would have said was one of my closest friends and certainly one of my longest term friends, only just called me and left a message a fortnight ago – 1st time in 8 months. After complete silence after the cancer.  Nothing.  And the message was about her work.

          So after that in January, that unimpressive complete lack of effort from some of my friends, I decided for the whole of 2018 to only socialise and talk with people who initiated.  I stopped being the first to call or text.  I stopped walking up to chat with mums at school functions who don’t approach me.  I just spend time with those who, to quote ETO or M, show up. They make the effort.  They reach out.

          It’s been fantastic.  I now concentrate on socialising with people who really want to be there enough to have arranged the catch-up.  Look, in life, everyone is busy.  Some people have time to call and see friends and some don’t.  I just really prioritise the former now, and relegate to low acquaintance level the latter.  It has redefined who I consider friends.  I’ve lost the shy friends who don’t initiate which is a sadness.

          My pathological mother has stuffed my up emotional life for life.  There are no words.  I’ve over-compensated and done a complete 180 on my kids.  I smother them with attention, love, time, activities, toys, my every earned cent goes towards them.  It’s pathological.  Hence why I sometimes really need a break – it’s exhausting to always be “on” for others.

          There is nothing wrong with looks being a factor in attraction.  It’s reality.  Even I, who stated it wasn’t a factor for me, on reflection, it is a factor in some ways, I dislike the look of certain races for instance, it’s just not one of my top 6-10 priorities so it doesn’t feel important.  But I suspect unconsciously biologically genetically it is massively important and I’ve made any number of partner decisions without realising that I’m basing them on looks.

          I really don’t mind YAG when he is not belittling me.  It’s important to allow others of differing positions and relationship aims to speak without attacking them.  He is allowed to prioritise looks.  It is his lived reality that he now doesn’t date <7.  Let him say so – why not?  It’s interesting to learn there are people like that, and consider why.

          I particularly believe we have to be careful with personal information that has been generously shared, and respect each other’s confidences.  Like many, I would prefer the comments section to stay well mannered.  I dislike when people personally attack others or get really angry and insulting.  We are all capable of good manners and rational debate.  Attack the argument, not the person.

        2. Jeremy

          Our parents affect us so profoundly, don’t they? So much so that when we think about why we do or don’t prioritize things, it’s so often in opposition to what our parents did. A father is too much of a disciplinarian, the child parents his own children without discipline. A mother over-prioritizes appearance, the child goes the other way. A mother and father are self-involved meaning-obsessed idealists, the child becomes a hard-headed rational….even when his predisposition is to be a dreamy idealist. I guess the perceptive among us observe our parents’ behaviours to be pathological at an early age and learn by negative example. Better, I guess, than mimicking them and causing history to cycle in an endless loop. Yet what will our children learn from us by negative example?…..And could we head them off at the pass by learning it ourselves first?

          My sister-in-law likes to post little memes on Facebook and I don’t usually pay them any mind. But she once posted something about the difference between an introvert and an extrovert that caught my attention. The post said be careful when ascribing motivations to your friends’ actions. When you’re sick, your extrovert friends will call you and come over because they believe that’s what they’d want if they were sick. Your introvert friends will leave you alone until you signal readiness to talk….because that’s what they believe you want, that they’d want if they were sick. The extroverts recharge by communicating, the introverts recharge by being alone – so how do they each extrapolate what a sick person wants? It is a failure of empathy, of imagination. Because even if the sick person is an introvert, s/he quickly tires of solitude and eventually craves contact. But the friends, who are busy with their lives and are not always thinking about their ill friend, don’t necessarily realize that solitude isn’t what their friend needs – that their extrapolation based on their own perceived desires is not correct. Now does this matter? Is what matters the fact that someone is thinking of you, wishing you well? Or is it that they didn’t pick up the phone? I don’t know. All I know is that I’ve lost so many friends over the years because we each played phone chicken with each other. If one had called the other would have answered eagerly….but no one called because no one wanted to “bother” the other.

        3. Mrs Happy

          “Phone chicken” – ha! good term.  I worry that if I’m always the person initiating contact, they’re not as invested in the friendship as I am.  Also, I don’t want to do 90-100% of the work of organising every outing and making every phone call for 20 years.  They can reciprocate and put in some effort, and if they don’t want to see me enough to do that, then I’ll stop too, and spend my limited socialising hours with someone who shows they want to be with me.

          Your points on introverts/extroverts and people’s general failure of theory of mind are salient and wise, thank you.  I’ll think about them.

          I’m still not calling the friends who haven’t called me at all in the 8 months since January though.  I’m on strike.  Because even if they wanted to give me space around my medical diagnosis and treatment 8 months ago, they have shown they want a friendship which consists of <2 contacts a year, and I don’t generally desire such friendships, as a rule.  It wasn’t until I stopped calling them that we could all see how infrequently they did want to chat (and as you can tell, this has hurt my feelings).  I’m now worried half the time whenever I rang they were thinking “Oh no, Mrs Happy calling again, I don’t want to speak with her, we just spoke 1-2 months ago…”  Not a good feeling.

      2. 18.1.2
        Marika

        Mrs Happy 

        So sorry to hear about your mother and Cancer. I hope things get better and better for you. The upside is that your kids benefit from you making efforts to be the opposite of her. Is she still in your life?

        Your meeting story with your husband is fantastic! Emily was your motivation re friends, I think. Friendships come quite easily to me. My anxiousness plays out with guys in dating, not in friendships. It’s good advice regardless, I should apply it more in dating.

        Aren’t you out of breath writing this after C2S.. ;). In truth I did it one year, but I walked it! See you down at Bondi amongst the thousands 😁

  19. 19
    Chris

    We tend to mirror the lifestyle of those we live with! That’s an unfortunate truth. Its easy enough to say “just eat much smaller portions than your partner”, but in practice we are going to find our self eating similarly to them. Now reading between the lines, perhaps some of the problems with her trainer ex was he put too much pressure on her to diet and exercise.

    With her current partner, things have gone too far the other way. He overeats, doesn’t exercise, is overweight and doesn’t seem to mind much. Unfortunately she’s finding herself mirroring this, and is not happy with him for being very overweight or for herself putting on excess weight and becoming unfit.

    Perhaps she needs a man who is the happy medium, he cares about his diet and exercise, but does not take it as seriously as her other trainer ex-boyfriend maybe did.

  20. 20
    Marika

    Hi YAG

    It’s true that I have no idea what it’s like to date American women.

    But I do know this: people don’t take advice or the POV onboard of someone who does nothing but criticize and denigrate them.

    1. 20.1
      Noone45

      I think YAG is in a common trap: Control freak behavior. People believe if they do everything right and somehow game the numbers, they’ll get what they want. The truth is, life doesn’t work that way. You can do everything right and still come out a loser. In YAG’s case, i think he has a personality disorder and needs to see a therapist. He’ll probably be like this until he’s dead. He’ll find some poor woman to abuse. I’ll say some atheist affirmation that he doesn’t, but there’s always a dumb pick me out there.

      The focus on SMV is a manifestation of people’s tendency toward conformity. Can we blame people for wanting to conform? Life is easier when you don’t stick out. I know that to be certain. There’s a reason people like Evan don’t write about people like me. Hell, even the success stories are fairly common. I don’t see anyone who would stick out socially. So all of you out there, if you are an average woman with decent looks and no disabilities, disabled children, or mental issues, you should be just fine. The rest or you: well….sorry.

      1. 20.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Noone45

        I have no desire to control anyone other than myself.  What I have a desire to do is to put order to to what appears to be chaos, but, in reality, is not chaos.  There is less randomness in behavior from person to person when it comes to coupling than we would like to believe.  Men and women react in very predictable ways.  Every so often one encounters an individual who is an outlier, but that person is an outlier; therefore, they get thrown out of the data set.

        As far as confirmation bias, I have conducted experiments where the outcome was not as I expected, not remotely close.  I factored those outcomes into my observations.

        With said, I stand by my assertion that a guy who is a below average in attractiveness (i.e., <= 4) is not going to get a woman whose baseline level for attraction is average or above average, regardless of whatever attributes he may possess, that is, short of fame and wealth, and then an entirely different dynamic comes into play due to the level of lifestyle comfort that is associated with men in that class.  If women were not willing to sacrifice arousal for comfort, fifty-something men would not be able to get attractive twenty and thirty-something women.  The thirty-something women who post to this blog love to claim that a fifty-something man cannot compete with a thirty-something man when it comes to attractiveness, which is something with which I concur.  However, how does one explain this pairing if not because the fifty-something man is able to provide more comfort than the thirty-something man?  The pairing does not mean that man is butt ugly.  He may be reasonably attractive for a fifty-something man, but reasonably attractive at fifty-something is not the same thing as reasonably-attractive at twenty or thirty-something.

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