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I’m a very successful, 37-year-old black/mixed race female who had over $40,000 worth of plastic surgery 4 years ago. I won’t lie: I did it to hopefully land a “top quality” guy. Here’s the problem: It actually worked. The surgeon was very skilled and I ended up a much prettier and younger version of myself.
Pre-surgery, very successful men have always found me attractive enough to date. But it was my “personality,” I was often told, that they were attracted to. But wedding rings eluded me, and these men soon broke my heart and went on to marry hotter girls. And the black men I wanted ended up marrying white women. (Yes, yes, all the clichés.) Now, with my new looks, these same types of alpha males behave quite differently: they call regularly, talk about a future together, and yes, some have even proposed.
To give men some credit, I have to say that I’m also more fun to date. Because when a guy always treats you well, it’s easier to be confident, sweet and lighthearted. Here’s my dilemma: I am currently with a “great catch”: early 40’s, tall, black, very successful, treats me well. He wants to marry me and have a family. He tells me that he was initially attracted to my looks, but it was my personality that won him over. Thanks to me, he is now all about family values and want to raise a strong black family. (Prior to me, he had mostly dated blonde women.)
But I can’t seem to say yes. I can’t shake the feeling that should my looks fade, he might change his mind, and I will end up divorced in 7 years, with young children. What I really want now is “that nice guy who would have loved me with my flaws and all” — the kind of men you encourage strong women to give a chance to. Even though my boyfriend tells me he loves me, even he admits that had he met my former self, he might not have given me a chance in the beginning, but now it doesn’t matter because he sees me for who I am. What to do? Dump him and start looking for that “nice” guy who might not show up in time for me to have children? Stay with this guy and live with my fears? Help!
Martine
Dear Martine,
Not only have I already written a treatise on how difficult it is for attractive women to trust men, I’ve had at least 3 girlfriends who lost over 40lbs before dating me. I can pretty much guarantee you that I would not have given them a second look at their former weight.
This doesn’t mean that I’m shallow — at least no shallower than anyone else in the world.
It means that I have preferences, same as you reading this. And as much as I preach being open to all sorts of possibilities, the fact remains that all of us are as valuable as our options.
All of us are as valuable as our options. If you have 500 men in your Inbox on Match.com, you be afford to be choosy…
If I prefer women who look like Barbie, but am not particularly tall, rich, charming or charismatic, I’m probably not going to get many Barbies. I can theoretically hold out for the Barbie of my dreams…or I can consider dating a curvier woman who has everything else that I’m looking for in a partner. Same thing goes for women. If you’ve got 500 men in your Match.com Inbox, you can afford to be as choosy as you like. If you determine that none of them are suitable because you want a six-foot-tall man with dark skin who loves dogs and Glenn Beck, then, well, you may be waiting for a while.
What you’ve done through your plastic surgery, Martine, is made yourself more “valuable” and desirable to the opposite sex, thereby increasing your number of options.
This is nothing to apologize for, as it’s had its intended effect. And if you’re doubting whether your boyfriend is being “real” with you, I don’t even think that it’s the right question. The issue here isn’t about your boyfriend: it’s about you and your own self-esteem. The fact that you’re not positive you “deserve” this guy is just beneath the surface. You’re looking for an excuse to run instead of delighting in your successful relationship.
This reminds me of a girlfriend of mine who never quite believed that I could be attracted to her — not while I was attracted to the women in Maxim and Internet porn. I couldn’t have been crazier about her, yet she broke up with me three times because she just didn’t feel safe. She had a fat girl complex — from how she treated me as a constant threat to cheat, to how she fumed that men were gawking at her new body in the gym, as if it’s their fault that she was once 40lbs heavier.
I’m no therapist, but, in layman’s terms: you eventually have to get over it.
Do you think ugly rock stars spend much time worrying about WHY women like them?
Do you think rich men squiring golddiggers around are losing sleep at night?
The truth is that we are the sum of many parts. Some of them are what draw people in… some of them are what keep people sticking around forever.
Do you think ugly rock stars spend much time worrying about WHY women like them?
Attractiveness is a sales tool — nothing more. You’ve probably heard the expression, “See that hot woman over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.” It acknowledges a basic truth — looks can only get you so far. Personality, emotional stability, playfulness, generosity — those are the things that keep men hooked on you. This is a central tenet of “Why He Disappeared”. Yes, he has to be attracted to you, but long-term relationships are forged in something much deeper.
Every man knows that there will always be someone younger, hotter, and thinner than his wife… He makes a choice to forgo those women because of what he stands to lose.
Your concern is a real one, Martine. Rich men with nothing going for them WILL lose their golddigger wives when they lose their money. Hot chicks with nothing going for them WILL lose their shallow husbands when their looks fade.
But that’s not you. And it’s not your boyfriend.
He only knows you as you are now — smart, strong, successful, and, after $40,000 in plastic surgery, a lot more physically attractive. Take heart in the fact that you were able to afford the kind of changes necessary to increase your dating pool, and don’t spend anymore time second-guessing how you got there.
Your very reasonable insecurities only stand to mess up the good thing you’ve already got going. Please report back and let us know how it goes.
My first thought was since this man says he loves her and for more than her looks, why not believe him?
My second thought is nowhere in her letter does she say she loves him. She goes on about what a great “catch” he is, but she doesn’t quite trust that he will stay with her long term. Might the insecurity stem not from having had plastic surgery, but because she doesn’t love him flaws and all, just appreciates the outward package and what he can provide?
I think she’s going down the path of self-destruction with the unnecessary provocations on herself. Instead of just enjoying the moment and being grateful for what she has, she now is questioning her own self-worth. What you believe you become. It’s as simple as that.
What you hold in your mind will become your reality, sooner or later. That’s the power of your mind whether or not you realize it.
Insecurities are very destructive to relationship and the number one way to repel your partner.
I do wonder, Evan…why oh why these rich and famous supermodels are attracted to and married to these super ugly rock stars? Doesn’t it boil down to our discussion last week that women are indeed inherently attracted to perceived male power (such as represented in money, fame and success)? Otherwise what other explanations to these women who have everything in life to want to be with these visually challenged men other than that their perceived “good provider” traits?
To be honest, I won’t be as shallow as that might sound. I just can’t be with a man I’m not physically attracted to no matter how rich and famous he is.
Because you have surgery , you really need counselling afterwards, nothing changes your still the same person you were on the inside, just because your face looks better doesn’t mean your head has caught up, a prime example is Kylie Jenna, extremely insecure. Xx
I can’t help but think there’s one theme running through her story: “I’m not (good) enough”. To me, it sounds like you found yourself lacking; therefore, unable to keep a man despite your wonderful personality, so you opted for surgery. And that’s more than fine, but I think it solved a sympton, not the cause. You have to know you’re more than enough, Martine. You have to love yourself and know that you’re lucky to have found eachother…you both contribute to the relationship. What your lack of confidence and fear is doing, is actually manifesting what you fear most–him falling out of love with you and leaving you somewhere down the road. Best of luck in being happy with, and loving yourself first…cuz the rest will fall into place. And another thing…it’s difficult to fully love someone when you block it from yourself as well.
This sounds like a classic, “Be careful what you wish for.”
If very successful men found her attractive enough to date [score 1], and also felt attracted to her personality [score 2], and they chose to visit the candy shop to purchase the grandest treat, maybe she wasn’t dating men who possess the best qualities. IMHO, changing her looks ($40K sounds drastic to me) wasn’t the answer, even though it happened to lead her to her great catch. A wedding ring eluded her for numerous reasons, among them her insecurities. How did changing her looks stop the black men she was interested in from continuing to marry white girls? What did she change?
If she wanted a man who would love her, flaws and all, then she shouldn’t have done the surgery. Her looks will fade. Depending on what she had done, the surgery may actually accelerate this, as follow-up procedures are sometimes necessary after a few years.
Her catch has fallen in love with her on the inside, but not her authentic self on the outside. Unfortunately, this is the reality she accepted when she did the surgery. Clearly, there’s no going back. She couldn’t find such a man anyway, since she’s no longer flawed, if you will.
I say, “Embrace the love you now have, and work through your insecurities.”
Actually, maybe her man does love her flaws and all, since his learning about how she changed her looks and why could be seen as a major flaw.
The irony for me is that someone can spend what for many people is the equivalent of a year’s salary on plastic surgery at the ripe old age of 37, and STILL feel insecure and dissatisfied.
What I am learning from this, and the previous post from the 90% girl, is that shallow people attract other shallow people. And also, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Generally, I agree with everything Tanya said (#2). The OP took care of the outward causes of her insecurities, but never worked on the inner ones. This is why, btw, most people who lose weight do not succeed over the long term – the weight is only a symptom of a faulty psychology, and they never address that.
It does leave me perturbed that her man openly admitted he wouldn’t have given her a chance if she still had her former looks. This isn’t the same, actually, as it is with a formerly fat person. (Most fat people are so self-hating anyway, they would only agree with such a statement emphatically.) But it’s different when it’s your actual face and your actual age, methinks.
Diana #4
Good point. After 40k in plastic surgery, there probably isn’t much there that is real.
This obsession with some phony ideal of perfection is beyond narcissistic.
“Shallow people attract shallow people”
At the end of the day as a man I would never marry anyone with plastic surgery if you are not happy about yourself than the chances of our marriage will not work out. Statistically the reason why a black women marrying a white man almost never ends in divorce. Is because the white man doesn’t care what other people think. When you are in a relationship especially when the other people do care about what other people think your chances of a successful relationship will be reduced.
Spending over 40k on plastic surgery you give a crap about what a lot of other people think. When it comes to options the really pretty women still have to settle/compromise for a guy who isn’t in there first choice.
Instead of thinking about life is about choices and options. Enjoy the time you two spend together.
@#5
Actually since she said she had the surgery 4 yrs. ago, she was only 33 at the time.
This is why i think plastic surgery is wrong. It creates insecurity and an identity crisis. If i suddenly became beautiful it would terrify me.
I think the best thing this girl can do is to take her time with this relationship and work out if it is right. Be honest with the guy that because he has said he would not have looked at her before this is the reason for her concerns. If he loves the real you. he will understand.
@Christine, your comment, “If I suddenly became beautiful it would terrify me” reminds me that there used to be an awful reality show featuring radical plastic surgery that the recipient wasn’t allowed to look at until unveiled on the show. I imagine one would need a huge amount of psychological counseling after such a life-altering experience…
I think any kind of radical change in appearance–whether it’s surgical or just through hard work (exercise/diet)–requires a lot of inner work to accept and love the “new” you in the mirror. Remember actress Jennifer Grey? After a bad nose job, she’s unrecognizable. You can’t “undo” plastic surgery…
yay to the OP! She knew what she wanted, she did what had to be done and she got her wish.
About her question – I personally gave up on the “why?” question some time ago. Why do I want this? I don’t know, I just do. Why does this man wants her? The answer is WHO CARES. Just take what is. I know I do. Makes life a lot easier.
This is exactly why I refuse to get implants, despite being practically flat-chested in a sea of the big tatas capital that is LA. I think I would resent the attention they would get.
Interesting, Bill. Now that I think of it, 2 of the most loving and successful long term couples I know in real life are a older white man/black woman combo. Much like Roger Ebert and his wife. I wonder if the op gave older, maybe overweight white guys a chance. or maybe thats not top quality enough for her? Are only these slick, rich black guys with a propensity to chase blondes considered top quality?
That is why you always have to fix/work on the inside.
Cat #15,
I do remember Extreme Makeover quite vividly, actually. While normally not a supporter of plastic surgery, however, I thought in those cases it was warranted. Those people’s appearance effectively ruined their lives, and if even the surgeons occasionally remarked that those were the worst cases [of teeth, skin, whatever] they’ve ever seen… makes it kinda difficult to propose that they just accept themselves the way they are. 😐
Jennifer Grey’s nose job wasn’t bad per se, it was just unnecessary, and turned out to be detrimental to her career. She had her own unique look, and after the surgery she ended up indistinguishable from millions of other people.
@Juju, I was referring to the show, The Swan. (There’s a link to the wiki as well.)
Oh, sorry, missed it. I don’t think I ever heard of it before.
@Juju #7:
“It does leave me perturbed that her man openly admitted he wouldn’t have given her a chance if she still had her former looks.”
Good point. After reading your post, I tried to put myself in the OP’s position. I was a really nerdy-looking teen, and have some pictures to prove it. Then, as soon as I outgrew that stage, I went off to college and gained 30 pounds in my first year. Lost them all by my last year of college, but, again, I have pictures. I’ve shown the pictures to plenty of men (heck, they’re even posted on my Facebook somewhere). And I have never in my life had a man say to me, “Well I would’ve never asked you out if you still looked like that, but hey, I like your looks now, so it’s all good.” It’s just an incredibly rude thing to say. No wonder the OP feels insecure. Maybe the guy is not as much of a catch as he seems? just a thought.
Goldie, and that’s when the issue was only weight and/or style. With the weight one can argue that it’s not your actual body, since it’s your body plus the extra poundage (sort of a diamond in the rough). But when it’s the actual face you were born with, it’s as if he is saying, “I find you fundamentally unacceptable.”
That’s the way I would have felt about that, anyway.
JuJu said: (#7)
“It does leave me perturbed that her man openly admitted he wouldn’t have given her a chance if she still had her former looks.”
Goldie said: (#19)
“It’s just an incredibly rude thing to say. No wonder the OP feels insecure.”
Martine may have directly asked her boyfriend that question. I’ve had people (including girlfriends) ask me questions where they don’t want to hear the truth … and I try to avoid lying, especially to friends.
It’s a very awkward position to be placed in. And it is the sort of question an insecure person is likely to ask.
Martine said: (original post)
“I did it to hopefully land a ‘top quality’ guy.”
“I am currently with a ‘great catch’: early 40’s, tall, black, very successful, treats me well.”
Would you have dated your “top quality guy” if he wasn’t successful? Or would you have gone looking for a better catch?
Martine said: (original post)
“I can’t shake the feeling that should my looks fade, he might change his mind, and I will end up divorced in 7 years, with young children.”
What happens if he loses his monetary assets? What happens if he loses his great job and can’t find another that earns nearly as much? Will you change your mind and divorce him?
At some point, there was a “before” he was successful. There may be a point when he is no longer successful. Are you willing to accept him, flaws and all, if that occurs?
Martine said: (original post)
“Even though my boyfriend tells me he loves me”
Forget that. Do you love him?
I think that’s the first question you need to ask yourself.
You know what the weird thing is? What really rubs me the wrong way is how her man mostly dated blond women before her. Being Indian, I’ve definitely seen this trend among men of my own race- it bothers me. Not because they find blond women hot. Hell, I’ve found plenty of blond women to be hot myself. like Patti Boyd. LOL But because with these men, it usually smacks of identity crisis, and a form of self-hatred at being the race they are. Such men tend to not be independent thinkers, no matter how successful they are financially or academically. I don’t know about the OP, but I’m looking for someone who’s proud to be who he is.
I don’t know what her own issues are regarding her ethnicity- maybe they match her boyfriend’s? If so, maybe she realizes that. My two cents? If you want to date men of color, make sure that they don’t have a prejudice against their own race, or other people of color- that spells trouble to me.
She has her priorities wrong when it comes to her qualifications a “catch”. I couldn’t date someone who I had to get plastic surgery that will always leave you at a level of inadequacy that will always hunt you.
With regard to Martine having $40K worth of plastic surgery, how many times have we been told and repeated that the world is as it is and we can’t change other people but we can change ourselves? Basically, agree or disagree, Martine recognized that we live in a looks driven culture, and to get the type of man she desires, she had to change herself and she did. It boils down to, how much do you want something and what are you willing to do to have it? Sometimes obtaining that which we believe we want is not better than what we had, but rather presents a whole new set of issues.
After I left an emotionally abusive, seven-year relationship with a loser boyfriend who cheated and lied, I looked in the mirror and realized I looked about ten years older than I was. Crying for five years straight will do that to a person. I had my eyelids done and a facelift to freshen up what was already mine. I looked like me, only a more refreshed, more youthful version of me. I was delighted with what I then saw in the mirror and went on to have a wonderful time dating until I met my husband. So to all the plastic surgery haters out there — please realize that it does have a useful purpose. It’s up to surgeons to determine who the good and not-so-good candidates are, based on their reasons for wanting the surgery.
sayanta, (#22)
You avoid dating men from your racial/ethnic background. When I first learned this, I asked you why (because I am also aware of the self-hatred that commonly accompanies such decisions).
If your reasons for doing so are completely rational, why assume otherwise when it’s a man who is doing the same thing?
Didn’t Evan have a letter writer a while ago who was a fat girl who lost a bunch of weight and even though she afterwards got lots of male attention, she resented it? Essentially her thought was, “Would you have liked me when I was fat?”
This is one time in my life when I’m glad I don’t have that kind of cash to throw around.
I, too, was disturbed about her man’s comment about how he wouldn’t have given her a chance had she never gotten the surgery. But I’m suspicious — did he really say that? Or is that what she heard through her filter of insecurity? Either way, it is unsettling and suggests that they might both have some real insecurities.
But even more troubling is her comment that “thanks to me” he changed his outlook from being a blond-chaser to being a family man, wanting only a strong black family — a Bill Cosby type I guess. I just don’t think so. How many times do we repeat it to ourselves, yet still believe the opposite: You can’t change other people. Either he is a family man or he isn’t, whether it’s with a white woman or any other woman.
I understand about insecurities and the nagging feeling that maybe he was just attracted to me because he liked my [butt, breasts, calves, money, whatever]. But my experience has been, if that’s true, the guy doesn’t stick around long and he certainly doesn’t propose marriage. If he said he grew to love the real you, just believe him. And please stop worrying about whether he’ll still love you when your looks fade (so will his, ya know), because it’s a waste of time & there is no remedy. Instead, concentrate on what you like about yourself — the things you had going for you long before you ever had surgery — and forget the rest. It’s true what they say: Men like women who like themselves. If you’re hot, yea, that’s a plus, but looks don’t win out in the end. Only personality lasts the long haul. Best of luck. Whatever you do, don’t get more surgery.
@ Karl #21
Have you noticed how “He loves me and I love him” doesn’t make it high on the criteria lists of those who have them, if at all?
So many of the posts the last few weeks have made me feel jaded toward my own gender. And glad I’m not a man faced with the prospect of dating some of these women.
I may have to take a break.
Karl- #26-
I must have given the wrong impression (or unintentionally) misled you. I’ve mostly gone out with Indian men- but yes, I have had lots of issues with them too. I’ve also gone out with blond, white dudes, so it would be hypocritical of me to say I would look down on someone purely because of that fact.
But there are men, like I said, who only date white women (usually blond), because they’re considered ‘trophies.’ A sign that a man of color has ‘made it.’ It’s that kind of thinking that I’m not crazy about.
Yes, he must have liked your face at the beginning but I do not think he stayed with you because of it, that was the cover of the book, then again, if he leaves when you get older or beauty fades, is that a man worth of you you? besides, you do not have anything else to offer? How can you worry about him leaving you? how about you leaving him when he gets old..
I don’t quite get it. The OP admitted she spent $40,000 (Holy moly 40K!) to make herself more marketable. And now she is upset that her boyfriend WHO LOVES HER says, “Hey, money well spent.”
I know a very happy couple. The husband is now bald, but he wasn’t when they met. Is the wife shallow because she wouldn’t have looked twice at him if he had been bald when they met? It truly is our preferences that attract us, and what we find in the person that keeps us.
I don’t mean to sound rude or bitter…. but I have very little sympathy for all the hot girls and their unlimited dating partners who write in and complain about their love lives. I only wish I had so many men after me that I was turning down engagements left and right.
My advice for Martine echoes many others: keep this guy. If someone loves you and is proposing marriage and things are working well (and you love him) then just go with it.
Now on to some of the more controversial points.
“Thanks to me, he is now all about family values and want to raise a strong black family.” (OP)
Could it be that he was interested in dating white women, but when it came down to marrying someone, wanted a woman of the same/similar race? The Women are Racist thread discussed this.
“He admits that had he met my former self, he might not have given me a chance in the beginning,” (OP)
I think Karl’s right, and that Martine probably asked him this question point-blank and he chose not to lie.
After college I lost 40 pounds and my dating options expanded greatly. I put some of that weight back on but was still overall much slimmer than my top weight when my fiance and I started dating. But the love pounds started coming on, and my fiance proposed to me when I was around the highest weight I’ve been since college. Would he have asked me out when I was my college weight? I have no idea, and have no intention of asking him. But I do know that he has decided to further his commitment to me, despite the scale going up. I’d say that we should take the boyfriend at his word, and that he will stay with Martine even as her appearance will change with age.
RE: Sayanta’s #22
My two cents? If you want to date men of color, make sure that they don’t have a prejudice against their own race, or other people of color- that spells trouble to me.
Sayanta, have you changed your views about dating Indian guys?
I have had more facial work done than Heidi and the thing is people DON’T have any idea. It looks natural and was more than I could have ever hoped. I went to a great doctor and I just had all the things that I felt were detracting from my appearance “fixed.” It made me feel great. I did it for myself AND because I was sick of being passed over and then reading words like “settling” being “realistic” about my options and what I could attain in my league.
The funny thing is I always thought I was great person on the inside. I felt I was unfairly looked over because of my appearance. I didn’t think I was ugly or anything like that, but I knew I wasn’t ever going to be called “beautiful” or “gorgeous.” I didn’t get surgery to try to be something I wasn’t. I truly believe getting it allowed me to be – and be viewed as – the person in my head I always thought I was. If anything, before my surgeries I felt trapped and beyond frustrated stuck looking like something I didn’t feel represented me at all.
To the original poster – I say all the power to you. Be thankful that you did get a fantastic result and enjoy it and all the attention it gets you. And remember that someone now gets to look past your looks and gets to see the real you, who you are inside instead of writing you off before they even know you. So try to just enjoy getting to finally allow the real you to shine through. It’s just one piece of a person but unfortunately without that part, the rest of you can be overlooked and you don’t have to worry about that now. Guys are shallow and stop fighting the reality and just enjoy having more options at this stage of the mating game.
Interesting post.
I was in my youth, a very slim, athletic attractive girl who got a LOT of attention. Then I got depressed, put on a bucket load of weight, and got no attention.
I really resented that. And was almost uwilling to lose the weight, just because i wanted some-one who liked me for me. I became quite angry. But I realized that was completely stupid. Why? Because I don’t like really overweight men. I’m not attracted to them. If a man is slim, dresses well, has nice hair and a nice smile, that is enough for me. He doesn’t have to be “handsome” just healthy.
So, really..why on earth would I expect men to be any different? Why would I resent men who wanted me to look my best?
So, I’ve lost the weight, and have gained back the attention. There are still moments when I think “He wouldn’t be talking to me”, but then I remind myself “Would I have approached him if he was obese, wearing frumpy clothes and sitting there frowning?”. Nope.
It’s easy to get annoyed at people for not “liking us” for who we are. Much harder to realize at the end of the day, we all do that to one degree or another until we get to know some-one.
Is this all about the equity theory of love ?
We are no more than products whose value is mostly on the surface.
I remember studying marketing years ago, and was told that most of the cost of perfume was in the packaging – the bottle, the box. If the product failed to sell they would just change the packaging, not the perfume.
Sadly, what is being recommended here is spend alot of money on cosmetic procedures because thats what sells.
All the dating advice comes down to
1. Settle for the ones that you find unattractive, but will accept you as you currently are.
2. Improve your attractiveness to the opposite sex by whatever means, so that the ones you find attractive will accept you
Although an awful lot is said about option 1, option 2 looks a hundred times better.
A-L-
LOL- it’s so funny how much we know about each other without ever having met! Well, like I said- I guess some people misunderstood, or I somehow gave wrong info- is that I’ve always gone out with Indian guys, but have had serious issues with them, including whether I wanted to marry one.
But now…I’m kind of going the other way- only because my increasing religiousness, and the fact that I may, one day in the far future, want to live in India have become other important factors. I won’t say I don’t still have issues, or bitterness about their behavior- but, I’m working on it.
I don’t know- I guess the best thing to do, is…just not think too much. lol
I admire people who have the boldness and the resources to follow through with plastic surgery. Not only will improving your physical appearance benefit you with dating and possibly self-esteem, but you’ll get nicer treatment from people in general (I don’t think men can resist being nice to an attractive, young woman) and even advantages in the job market.
I once saw a segment on 20/20 where average looking women and great looking women went on job interviews while carrying a hidden camera in their purses. Their resumes were extremely similar. The good looking women get advice, pleas “please call me if you have any questions,” compliments on everything they said, and a great deal of time. The average looking women were merely treated politely.
In satire there is truth:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-woman-to-get-by-on-looks-for-six-more-years,487/
Annie #36 at al.
This is actually very interesting. I wonder if this is some kind of a cultural thing in the US, where kids are conditioned from an early age to have the sense of inflated self-value, and when they grow up into the world which refuses to love them unconditionally they end up resenting it.
I dunno, I think this is a very “it depends” situation. We don’t really know what she had done. I think plastic surgery is different than losing weight. Weight affects your health, and often means a person is not very physically active, which is a turn-off for potential partners who want to be healthy and active.
But that fact that this poster is mixed/black and mentions that her suitors usually date white, makes me assume her surgery made her more “white” looking. That does irk me a bit, especially for someone who wants children. Remember, the kids won’t inherit your “new” look….hopefully you and their father will love them regardless.
Zaq said: (#37)
“2. Improve your attractiveness to the opposite sex by whatever means, so that the ones you find attractive will accept you […] option 2 looks a hundred times better.”
Does it?
I knew a young lawyer who had an attractive wife. It was fairly obvious that her attraction to this short, overweight man was his income and job. As long as he was spending money on her, she was happy.
Unfortunately, as a young lawyer, he wasn’t earning that much. He had student loans to pay off. He was getting deeper and deeper in debt, and was having to make unethical decisions just to make ends meet (like cheating his clients).
Is it worth sabotaging your financial well being and your reputation just to get someone attractive?
Some improvements are worth doing because they will improve your quality of life and attract others: being at a healthy weight, exercising, improving self-confidence…
Some improvements can improve attractiveness at a minimal cost: hair, clothes…
And some “improvements” are risky, unhealthy, unethical or make you unhappier in the long run. Cosmetic surgery comes with a health risk. I’m also not sure that it’s made Martine happier.
40k buys ALOT of plastic surgery, especially on a 33 year old. Enough to re-do the entire body, although I can’t imagine a 33 year old needing a face lift, but who knows?
I’m thinking of Barbra Streisand, who hasn’t done too badly in both her career and personal life…Would she be “forced” to get a nose-job today?
@#41
Good point.
I wonder if the OP is missing the point entirely by focusing only on looks. This is the giveaway line: “I can’t shake the feeling that should my looks fade, he might change his mind, and I will end up divorced in 7 years, with young children.”
What is making her feel this way? It might not have anything to do with her looks. Is her man giving off some OTHER vibe that would make her think that he’d leave her if they had difficult times? For example, have they had fights that they weren’t able to resolve in a satisfactory way? Because there WILL be difficult times in marriage, make no mistake about it. If two people cannot resolve these difficulties in marriage, it doesn’t matter how beautiful one or the other party is.
So she needs to be honest with herself and ask why she is feeling this way. Is it because of her own insecurities, or is it because of signals her man has been sending her? If it’s the former, I agree with other commenters that she should shed the fear and simply work on loving and appreciating her man. If it’s the latter, then she should hold off on marrying him and date him a little longer to be sure he’s the one.
RE: Zaq‘s #37
Improve your attractiveness to the opposite sex by whatever means, so that the ones you find attractive will accept you
Is this really a hundred times more palatable to you? So if it meant a lifetime of not eating carbs, desserts, or alcohol to keep a trim figure? Or working out for 3 hours a day at the gym instead of relaxing and spending time with your loved ones? Forgo vacations, new clothes, and Lord knows what else so you can pay for the “maintenace” of your plastic surgeries? Perhaps if your attractiveness is due to your income you would prefer to go back to school to study a subject you hate and then enter a career that you don’t really care for where you spend 70+ hours a week, just so you have a better income?
Though people might be willing to sacrifice temporarily for something desirable, it’s hard to do it for a lifetime. Particularly when you open yourself up to new types of people and find a wonderful mate that you love and makes you feel marvelous…just as you are.
RE: Sayanta‘s #38
Yeah, the delay in the approval of our responses meant that I didn’t see your reply to Karl when I posted mine. But yeah, it does seem as though I know some of you! I actually thought of you when I was talking to a NY lawyer friend. A doctor friend of Indian descent has had difficulties finding a spouse, though she was limiting herself to Indian guys. Perhaps you could send her some of yours!
RE: Chris‘ #39
Do you know if the study was done in the U.S.? I wonder if it’s different in other parts of the world. For instance, when I’ve traveled through Latin America I’ve always found everyone to be extraordinarily helpful. They’d carry my luggage, stop at a real restroom instead of the “banos naturales,” come to a full stop for me to get on/off a bus (instead of just slowing down and expecting me to hop off), etc. These things had little to do with my appearance, apart from the fact that I’m female. If I was a man I don’t think I would have been so lucky, even if I was on the cover of People’s Sexiest Man Alive.
Stacy (#40) & C (#41): Good points!
The main problem and the dynamic of life. What you could of been happy with is going to be change when you lose 50lbs/plastic surgery/etc because your expectations change. What you could of been very happy with when your 20lbs overweight would make it look like your settling when your 10lbs underweight (skinny). Human nature – peoples expectations change compare to the attention they get. Majority of the time you will be where you started….
I am a girl who is fascinated by make up and I have a few “make over” books because they are fun to read. One that I have was written by make-up artist Scott Barnes, and he features Dr. Katherine Albrecht, a Harvard grad with a PhD in Education. She discussed attending a lecture once where she literally forgot to pack her make-up, and the young man responsible for getting her where she needed to be on time was not impolite to her, but he was clearly disappointed at how she looked. She said over the lunch hour, she went and purchased $100 worth of make-up and applied it as Scott had taught her and the difference in the way she was subsequently treated was like night and day.
Whether we like it or not, there is power in beauty. And remember that what is expressed here is only opinion. I think $40K on plastic surgery is a bit excessive just to get a date. But that doesn’t make Martine wrong for doing so if she had the resources and it’s what she in her heart of heart truly wanted. My perspective is not fact but merely an opinion. No one who posts on this board needs to feel like they must immediately start making a list of flaws that the plastic surgeon needs to fix so they can find a worthy partner. But if that’s ultimately what you end up doing, it’s a free country. We all weight the costs vs. the benefits of what we want and are we willing the pay the price to have it.
Starthrower: yes, it’s her prerogative to spend that money on a body renovation. However, it sounds like she’s having some buyer’s remorse even though she’s gotten the results she was looking for.
There’s an expression that is something like “If you go fishing with diamonds, you’ll attract women who like diamonds.” If you get a bunch of “work” done and go fishing with your looks, you’ll attract men who value beauty. It is what it is. I have no problem doing whatever is in a person’s means to improve themselves as long as they aren’t hurting people or stealing money to do it. Right or wrong, attractiveness is a social currency in our culture.
It annoys me a bit when people applaud weight loss and tell a person how great they look, but if you have something asethetically off with your face, you are supposed to just accept it and be fine with it, even thought those same people who judge plastic surgery probably wouldn’t date anyone with those flaws or want to live with those flaws either.
I don’t think anyone should feel pressured to do anything that they do not feel comfortable doing. Only that it is empowering to be able to change something IF it bothers you. Self-consciousness, shyness, and feeling bad about something tend not to attract a whole lot…in a lot of cases if you feel good, you do act more confident and outgoing which is attractive – as well as putting more time and energy into your hair, makeup, body, outfits, so you still come off looking more like “that girl” even if your features are not perfectly symmetrical or perfect. The thing is plastic surgery does not always turn out perfectly or always look totally natural, so I don’t think it is anything to do on a whim or without a lot of research.
@Joe #49,
I don’t disagree with you. I said in an earlier comment that having the new “thing” (whatever it may be) is not always better than what one had before; sometimes it just creates a whole different set of issues.
But I can’t seem to say yes. I can’t shake the feeling that should my looks fade, he might change his mind, and I will end up divorced in 7 years,
Martine;
Plastic surgery isn’t the issue, all women have that worry.
I have an acquaintance who was model-hot, naturally, when she was younger. She also had a lot else going for her. Married an attractive Ken doll type. He divorced her when she gained a ton of weight. No plastic surgery was in the equation. Happens every day, to all types of people. It isn’t about the surgery.
@Goldie #19
On the flip side, that shows that her BF is *honest*, can be trusted to tell the truth.
Having a case of “fat kid syndrome” myself, I’m not sure I would want to hear something like that or that I would tell someone else something like that.
Selena 29
Have you noticed how “He loves me and I love him” doesn’t make it high on the criteria lists of those who have them, if at all?
So many of the posts the last few weeks have made me feel jaded toward my own gender. And glad I’m not a man faced with the prospect of dating some of these women.
+1
Actually, I was gratified to read the female comment authors questioning those list holders. Boosted my faith in contemporary American women.
jen says: “It annoys me a bit when people applaud weight loss and tell a person how great they look, but if you have something asethetically off with your face, you are supposed to just accept it and be fine with it, even thought those same people who judge plastic surgery probably wouldn’t date anyone with those flaws or want to live with those flaws either.”
Well, sure, I understand if someone is deformed or has something hideously grotesque on their face, by all means, I applaud the doctors that are able to fix it! But I worry that too many people are seeking “sameness”, and we are going to see a lot more cookie cutter versions of beauty. I work with a lot of asians who get eyelid surgery to look more anglo, and I’ve know Jewish girls that got nose jobs, and Indians who get their skin lightened. i just think its disappointing that we are basically white-washing nature beauty.
I myself have a roman nose and when I was young I hated it, but now I think its lovely. I would deeply regret it if I changed it.
Karl says “Martine may have directly asked her boyfriend that question. I’ve had people (including girlfriends) ask me questions where they don’t want to hear the truth … and I try to avoid lying, especially to friends.”
I agree, she may have asked. I myself tend to do this with lovers regarding my breasts. Never have any said they have a problem with them being small. They could be lying, but this is one case where i feel like men should lie! They always get better sex when they do 🙂
@C. #55
I think sometimes we need to consider if we really want to know the answer to a question before asking it. 🙂
But this guy probably could have answered more tactfully. He could have understood she had some insecurity with showing him her “before” pictures and assured her he loved her for her regardless of what she looked like. Brutal honesty is sometimes just brutal. And unnecessary.
Steve #53,
have you seen The Invention of Lying?
Telling the truth is not always a good thing. 🙂
JuJu – I saw that movie the other day, funny! And it did make me appreciate the cultural “niceties” we live by instead of unthinkingly blurting out “the truth” at all times.
C (#13) wrote:
I wonder if the op gave older, maybe overweight white guys a chance. or maybe thats not top quality enough for her?
I think the answer to this question may in fact be no, and frankly, we can’t blame the op for that. Why should she or anyone else date someone that they aren’t attracted to? Should she settle for someone who is unattractive in order to get a white guy? Are white guys of “better quality” than “slick rich black guys.” As a 39 year old black woman, who is frequently asked whether I’m much younger, I have no interest in dating overweight or significantly older men regardless of race.
As for the op, sadly it’s too late to find the nice guy who likes her for her. Just like the movie star wonders whether every woman is only interested in him because of his fame and fortune, Martine will never again know whether a guy initially likes her for who she is or what she looks like. Presumably, they will all be interested (at least initially) in her looks, no matter how nice. So, like many posters have mentioned, if she loves him she should stick with him and be happy that she got exactly what she wanted (and paid for).
Maybe the op is suffering from a guilty conscience. She knows she herself would not have fallen for the man had he been less successful. And she’s transferring her objectifying-commodifying view of her mate to him as well, i.e. he only sees her as a beauty object no more or no less.
If the situation were to be reversed, say he loses his employment / successful postion, would she still love him and be happily married to him?
I agree with Zaq about taking steps to improve your desireability, although I wouldn’t put the premium at “100 times better.”
Aside from working on my clothing and body, I found that if the people you like tend to have some interest, it can really pay off to adopt that interest yourself if you want those people to like you. When I was single I thought it really worth it for me to be able to talk about the shows my dates watched, the countries they wanted to visit, and the bands they listened to. To give a specific, yeah, I started watching Lost because the girls I liked tended to be into Lost, but watching Lost didn’t do me an iota of harm, and it made me a much more successful dater.
I drew a line at changing my beliefs. I even draw a line at watching something I thought was boring (I can’t get into Mad Men, for some reason, I don’t like spectator sports). but for me getting with the non-girly things that my dates were into was a great move.
@ Jen
The 20/20 segment was filmed in an American office environment. Unfortunately I have never been able to find the piece online or I would link to it. Many studies have confirmed lookism in the environment (height is easiest to quantify: a study I have seen multiple times is that on average, for every inch taller a man is, his income goes up by $800 a year), but that anecdotal segment on 20/20 made it more vivid than anything else I have seen.
I agree with tyou that different cultures have different mores of helpfulness and people in South America may have been kinder to you than people elsewhere, but still, attractiveness pays off socially and in the workplace, just like it pays off in finding a “quality” person.
JuJu said: (#57)
“Telling the truth is not always a good thing.”
Why do you think lying would be better?
Let’s say you ask a question (“Do I look fat to you?” or C’s example in #55) where there is a “right” and “wrong” answer. There’s also a true answer which could be either of those. There are three possible outcomes:
1) He says “No” (the truth), and you feel happy, until you realize that he might have said it because it’s the “right” answer instead of the true answer. Then you feel insecure again.
2) He says “Yes”, and you’re upset.
3) He says “No” (a lie) and you have just reinforced the habit that the “right” thing to do is lie to you.
When you ask the question, you set up three possible outcomes, and all of them are bad. If every answer leads to a bad outcome, then the only solution is to stop asking that kind of question.
I’m sure someone will try to say there’s an exception for lies that are intended to protect someone’s feelings and avoid fights. A person could make the same rationalization for the following lie: “I did not have sex with your best friend.”
Nobody benefits from being lied to. I value tactful honesty over brutal honesty … but the key is honesty.
C, (#55)
Since men can get a good idea about your breast size before they ask you out, the men who are with you don’t have any problem with their size.
Selena said: (#58)
“[The Invention of Lying] did make me appreciate the cultural ‘niceties’ we live by instead of unthinkingly blurting out ‘the truth’ at all times.”
I can observe all of the cultural niceties without lying. If I say, “I’m happy to see you again,” it means I’m happy to see that person again. If I’m not happy to see that person, I can say, “It’s been a long time since I’ve seen you,” or “How have you been?”
And you’re completely overlooking the power of silence. If I keep my thoughts to myself, I don’t have to lie.
There’s lying, and there’s dissembling.
@JuJu #57
I just added it to my netflix queue
Some if not all of the people who write emails to Evan for advice read the comments to his posts. I have written some strongly worded comments ( the 90% girl ) because I felt compelled to do so, not out of a desire to insult anyone or a disregard for their feelings. I have seen a number of comments lately that are flat out rude and insulting to the OP, “talking about them” as if they were not there. Yes, this is the internet, but these people are big enough to be here and ask for advice. Why not ask yourself how you would feel if you were reading the message you are writing? Why not try to make it a useful message (one the OP might listen to ) instead of one that just expresses your thoughts?
End of sermon
@Steve #65
The OP wrote in to Evan for advice, not a horde of people on the internet.
I like reading the comments. They’re more interesting when they express a variety of voices and views. Yes, I’m not the OP, and my feelings won’t be hurt. But realistically, do we need a disclaimer for the OP not to take the opinions of strangers without any qualifications (except free time) seriously. All we know about her is from the few paragraphs in the letter. People know her reality is probably more complicated, but we’re just offering our own views on the case as presented, if not to help the OP exactly, but to everyone who’s interested in relationship-related female/male issues.
I think Evan’s reply in this case was balanced and in perspective. Without more to go on, there’s nothing more really to be said. There’s no imaginary perfect relationship out there. And there are no real red flags in this current one. She got the work (plastic surgery) done, unless she get is undone, she’ll never know the alternate reality. So why all the distress on her part?
Well I think she is low in confidence after that surgery deep in her heart she thinks that this beauty is not permanent and it will fade away and his husband or boyfriend also which she got from that surgery…she is feeling insecure. I just want to say that don’t leave in future or in past enjoy this present which you have got and be happy.
I would hope anyone who writes to EMK would understand how their topic gets dissected in the comment section of the blog. The purpose is to create discussion, otherwise EMK could simply answer the letter without having a comment section.
To Martine: No one can predict how long a relationship will last. Since half of all marriages end in divorce, the best you can do is base your decision on what you know and feel and hope for the best. It really is a leap of faith.
Its very easy to decide to not date someone coz u dont like their looks….. No comparision to leaving someone after several yrs of marriage coz u think they’re older and hence less attractive!!! …… Very unfounded fears I feel!….
re: J #59
I’m not saying any old white guy is better than a black guy, I’m saying that based on the op desire for someone to love her flaws and all, maybe she should have given other guys a chance, rather than going for the ones who have proven to be superficial. I’m really just echoing Evan’s usual advice. Look at what the op wants: successful alpha black man, who wants kids, and would love her regardless of how she looked before. I’m just saying that rather than having surgery, she could have made compromises with her criteria, like a going for a successful white guy who thinks she a goddess, OR she could have also gone for a black guy that perhaps is not as successful, tall and suave as her current guy. BUT post surgery, since she can’t go back, I agree with others that if she loves this guy she should compromise the the last part of her criteria and accept that her current guy has good looks at (or at least near) the top of his list. So in the end, she has to compromise any way.
Karl R says: A person could make the same rationalization for the following lie: “I did not have sex with your best friend.”
I don’t think its the same thing. Cheating is a destructive action, but simply telling someone they are attractive despite their flaws is an act of love. I’ve been on the other side of this, as I have been with guys who lose their hair or develop a gut. When they act insecure about it, I tell them they are cute to me and I love them how they are, even though secretly I would prefer they have all their hair and slimmer waistline. But in the end, confidence is more attractive than any of that, so I like to encourage my guys rather than point out their flaws.
And true, I suppose guys can see I’m small chested from the get go, so I have been making more of an effort of not asking guys reassurance about it. Insecurities die hard though! 🙂
I mentioned in my previous post the Equity theory of love.
Basically the idea is that two individuals have a value to each other based on looks, personality status etc.
We all try to get the mate with the highest value. If the choice is between eating considerably less and working out every day so that you can attract those who you find attractive versus taking the easy route and trying to like the ones you think are ugly and unattractive – well one of those is possible, but difficult and the other is impossible.
Karl has made the point that values can change. The ‘rich’ lawyer can become poor – what then ? Unfortunately the equity theory says the relationship fails or comes under stress.
The attractive woman marries the ambitious man. Her looks fade and he becomes more successful. His value increases, and hers decreases. The partnership is no longer one of equals. He trades her in for one of his young assistants. I know plenty of cases of that.
I also know several cases where the woman was attracted to the mans physical attractiveness, and the relationships came under stress when the men failed to be ambitious enough.
Yes all of this sucks
Zaq said: (#71)
“the idea is that two individuals have a value to each other based on looks, personality status etc.”
“We all try to get the mate with the highest value.”
That’s sufficiently accurate.
I would say that you’re not looking at the whole picture, though.
Since you’re not flawless, you can’t get a woman who is perfect in every way. The woman who is perfect in every way can hold out for the man who is perfect in every way. Therefore, you’re going to have to compromise on something (or waste your time perpetually chasing women who are out of your league). You could go for the hot girl who treats you badly, or you could go for someone less attractive who treats you well.
Which are you willing to compromise on: looks or personality?
Since I’d prefer to avoid years of being nagged or insulted, I’m willing to compromise some on looks to ensure I get someone that I’ll enjoy spending the rest of my life with.
Zaq said: (#71)
“If the choice is between eating considerably less and working out every day …”
Following your Equity Theory, you can also improve your value by improving your personality. Good looks might be more effective for getting your foot in the door, but the woman will eventually leave you if she decides that you’re a good-looking prick.
Lol! Karl #72
“…but the woman will eventually leave you if she decides that you’re a good-looking prick.” Yes. And I have.
Karl said “you can also improve your value by improving your personality”
Well that is true, personality has a value, and it isn’t something that fades with age. Unfortunately, in studies done, personality doesn’t seem to account for much.
Men tend to set the bar low in any event, women are the ones with high expectations. Men are rejected simply based on their height. They can make up for it based on other factors, like the saying in judging a mans height, he stands on his wallet!
But lets make this clear. we are not talking about compromising one attractive characteristic for another, we are talking about whether to accept someone who when you take into consideration everything is still unattractiive.
Zaq says, “The attractive woman marries the ambitious man. Her looks fade and he becomes more successful. His value increases, and hers decreases. The partnership is no longer one of equals. He trades her in for one of his young assistants. I know plenty of cases of that.”
So basically you are validating the OPs fears..that even though good looks got her foot in the door her man will most likely leave her for another woman in the future. So all women are screwed either way..the ugly ones aren’t given a chance, and the pretty ones will age and then their successful husbands will leave them
.
Thanks for depressing me.
Oh, and just curious, your friends who do the “trade in”..are they happier? Are there children involved? It just seems incredibly immature and selfish and adds to my opinion that rich men aren’t to be trusted.
It isn’t that rich man would trade you in it is his over the top personality that takes him to the top. That personality is what shouldn’t be trusted not his wealth.
C. in 75
Just read any dating book by Leil Lowndes to get the idea. I certainly would love to live in a universe where we are judged based on whats in our hearts, but when it comes to mating we are driven by powerful evolutionary forces to desire things that may not make us happy.
A man is attracted to the most fertile women. That means young women. For a man to give up half his wealth and risk social disaproval, this drive must be powerful.
At the same time, you can google a youtube video of a scientists conducting research at a speed dating meeting. When looking at he results, one of the scientists comments on what a man needs to do in order to be attractive to women. “don’t have a great personality, don’t bother going to the gymn – just be tall!”
What possible advantage can a mans height bestow to a happy relationship ?
So a woman making herself look younger WILL increase her dating options. A man undergoing surgery to lengthen his legs WILL increase his dating options, and this has absolutely nothing to do with confidence.
What I take from all this is that it is best to avoid the members of the opposite sex of the highest value, otherwise what the Op fears may well come true
Well, Karl (#62), by the same token I can ask, why do you put such a premium on the truth? Even telling the woman the reason for such a question, rather than answering the question directly, would still offend her. If the insecurity becomes a constant problem that affects the relationship, then yes, it should be addressed (delicately). Otherwise you have to ask yourself if there is anything to be gained by stating the truth. Your belief in the value of of the truth seems to be somewhat dogmatic, to me. And contrary to this belief, there isn’t a default, intrinsic value to it.
I am lucky though, I suppose, in that that whole behavioral pattern is alien to me – it would never occur to me to ask someone if I look fat. I rely on my own sight and perception. Nor can I understand the slim and trim women who are always convinced for some reason that they are actually fat in reality.
As for Zaq‘s post, I can understand people growing apart, no longer being happy with their partner, and so on and so forth. What I can’t understand is trading up merely for the sake of trading up. Treating the concept of a partner as a status symbol, of sorts. To me that signifies a certain psychology, a way of thinking with which I choose not associate myself. This simply isn’t the kind of person I would want in my life, let alone in the capacity of a mate.
And it’s not like the man stays frozen in time – he is also getting older and less attractive. His value does NOT linearly go up!
Zaq said: (#74)
“we are not talking about compromising one attractive characteristic for another, we are talking about whether to accept someone who when you take into consideration everything is still unattractiive.”
What do you mean, “we”?
You are talking about settling for someone who is unattractive on all levels. I’m not, nor is Evan.
Evan has never suggested that anyone settle for someone who doesn’t treat them well. He has never suggested that anyone settle for someone who doesn’t love them just the way they are. He has suggested that people compromise on looks, height, weight, age, income and interests.
Martine (original post) also implied that when she said to Evan, “What I really want now is ‘that nice guy who would have loved me with my flaws and all’ — the kind of men you encourage strong women to give a chance to.”
So I’m really curious, what do you mean, “we”?
Zaq said: (#74)
“Unfortunately, in studies done, personality doesn’t seem to account for much.”
Other than self-confidence, personality doesn’t get your foot in the door. When it comes to a long-term relationship, personality and values are the critical elements in a long term relationship. Seriously, does a “top quality” person leave you because your looks fade or your income drops?
You are trying to eat less and exercise more in order to get someone who is more “attractive” (presumably better looking). That’s fine, particularly since being healthier is a reasonable goal for its own sake. It will help you get your foot in more doors.
But getting your foot in the door is only the first step.
C #75: Don’t give up hope. Obviously not all rich men do this. The important thing is to make sure that ANY man (not just a rich man) loves you for more than your looks, because what Zaq said is right: looks DO fade. Personality and character do not, and these are the things that can stay constant or even improve with maturity.
It feels really weird to read all these comments as they see sooo naive as if they are written by a person with very little life experience. Either that or I am the most cynical person around here who’s lost all illusions.
@Helen:
Excuse me, personality and character do not fade? Really? As a person with 2 older generations of my family aging before my very eyes, I know that personalities do fade in a major way. Sometimes to the point when it’s no longer possible to be around a person. To assume otherwise is very childish, as the brain deteriorates same as the rest of the body over time. Not to mention, that people change as a result of various other events, such as having a baby, for example, or not even biological.
And looks will sure fade too, if you want an insurance for that – go for a person who’s 10-15 years older, that way you will always look sufficiently younger in comparison. Easy.
Apology for the multiple postings, this is my last comment in this topic, no sense in arguing…
Looks, personality, habit, money – it can ALL change, in a very major way over the course of one’s life. To assume that any of those will stay the same or automatically improve is very naive to say the least. When we enter a relationship we take what is, hopefully at face value, and should have no expectations as to how this “what is” will evolve, because there’s simply no way of knowing. Even looks fade differently, some women age nicely, some get really ugly. In that respect, marrying someone for “money” or “looks” is no more shallow or stupid than marrying for the “personality”.
Thanks Helen.
Zaq, I personally have no idea why some women put so much emphasis on height. I think its stupid. My last lover was short, and he dumped me because I wanted to be more serious..so all these books and studies you read don’t translate to the real world for me.
Stacy, considering you are only in your 20s and not in a committed long term relationship like posters Helen and Karl R are, I’m willing to bet that they have a considerable amount of life experience on ya.
Stacy said: (#81)
“or I am the most cynical person around here who’s lost all illusions.”
You are cynical, but cynicism is a distorted view of reality.
People most often act in their own self-interest (cynicism is correct to that extent), but ethical people will look for ways in which ethical behavior is in their own self-interest.
Since I was far more cynical and pessimistic in my 20s, my comparative experience has shown me both traits get in the way of dating and romantic relationships (and most other relationships).
JuJu said: (#78)
“why do you put such a premium on the truth? […] Otherwise you have to ask yourself if there is anything to be gained by stating the truth.”
I get a reputation for being honest, even when it would be easier to lie.
Shortly after Evan got married, his wife found a pair of women’s undergarments (not her own) in their laundry. When she questioned Evan about it, he had no knowledge how they got there … and she believed him. (They eventually learned that one of the machines in the communal laundry room would swallow items of clothing and spit them out in later loads.)
Imagine you’re in Evan’s wife’s position. You just found another woman’s panties in the laundry, and your husband is pleading ignormance. Who are you more likely to believe: the person who always answers truthfully, even when it’s inconvenient -or- the person who habitually tells you what he thinks you want to hear?
Zaq said: (#77)
“when it comes to mating we are driven by powerful evolutionary forces to desire things that may not make us happy.”
“What I take from all this is that it is best to avoid the members of the opposite sex of the highest value,”
Since you’re already seeing dating in economic terms, let’s run with that metaphor. What happens when you have a market system where an objects actual worth may be completely different from its perceived worth? (This applies to everything from appliances to stocks.) In any system where this is occurring, there will be items which are overvalued and others that are undervalued. The people who profit from this are those who can see the substance without being distracted by the hype.
Which person has genuine value? The person who will make you happy. Which person is overvalued? The one who has some trait which people are biologically or socially driven to desire, a trait which is irrelevant to your happiness. (i.e. I don’t want kids, so fertility is a useless trait to me.)
Stacy said: (#82)
“marrying someone for ‘money’ or ‘looks’ is no more shallow or stupid than marrying for the ‘personality’.”
This reminded me of a quote from comedian Ron White:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0811045/quotes?qt0275049
But if you truly believe what you say, act on that belief.
Karl R #84: Oh dear, I clicked on that link and started laughing hysterically!
C #83: you’re Ellen Page’s lookalike, right? While we’re on the topic of movie quotes (Karl R’s link), the quote I thought of that most applies to this conversation comes from Juno, the movie that made me fall in love with Ellen Page. From Juno’s father:
“The best thing you can do is find a person who loves you for exactly what you are. Good mood, bad mood, ugly, pretty, handsome, what have you, the right person is still going to think the sun shines out your ass. That’s the kind of person that’s worth sticking with.”
I’ve been a pain in the neck all week to my family because of illness: serious, but not as serious as I’ve oftentimes made it out to be. Hubby has borne the brunt of this. Now things are improving. He commented that I seem more chipper tonight. I asked him outright, “Does it take a lot of patience to live with someone like me?” He laughed, gave me his loving smile and said, “No. Just a sense of humor.”
He’s the kind of person that’s worth sticking with. I’ll do my darndest to be equally worthy, even if I constantly fall short trying.
Karl, I’m not really disagreeing with much you are saying. For a successful relationship the most important thing to have is the ability to be kind. If the choice is between someone who looks great, but is somewhat selfish, versus someone that looks average but has a beautiful personality, then the second would be a good long term bet.
However, I would view both as being attractive. The problem comes when there is no sexual attraction. Without sexual attraction, all you have is a friend. How we look is important to the vast majority of the population.
I was reading an article in a newspaper about the founder of one of the longest running dating agencies. She stated that she would not take on any woman over 50. Indeed I know someone who was rejected from a dating agency for being too ugly. That is the reality.
I read a lot on this blog about the problem of those who are 7/10 holding out for the 10s. But the reality is that most of us are 5/10 with aspirations for a 7, but with dating options that are a 3/10. Hence the frustration, particularly from women who don’t like being told to settle for some they are not attracted to.
Zaq said: (#86)
“the reality is that most of us are 5/10 with aspirations for a 7, but with dating options that are a 3/10.”
One person’s 3 is another person’s 7.
In my early 20s I was about 6′ and 135 lbs (182cm and 61kg). I was too scrawny for most women’s tastes, and I had rather little self confidence about my looks.
Then I had a fling with a sexy young lady who obviously found me very attractive. (Neither of us was looking for more than that.) What I learned from that experience: some women (even attractive women) found me attractive, even if the majority didn’t.
There aren’t uniform views on beauty (for men or women). I don’t find Pamela Anderson attractive. I can recognize why other men might, but she’s just not my type. On the other hand, I find some women attractive who most men might consider plain.
You don’t need to find “a 7”. You need to find someone who you find attractive, and who also finds you attractive. This becomes easier if your looks improve. (While I wouldn’t consider plastic surgery, building up to 160 lbs certainly helped me.) Even without that, it’s not an insurmountable task.
Plastic surgery is just really not that big of a deal. It’s like braces. You go through it, you look better, you pay the bills, and move on.
Good for the OP that she did that, since she wanted that. But true, you do question why someone likes you, when someone likes you. You wonder what would make them stop loving you. What would have to happen to make your relationship end. How much is real, how much is fantasy. How deep is your bond, what does the future hold–good or bad and how will we get through it? You realize that all love is conditional, no matter what kind of claptrap every is spouting about soul mates, unconditional love, etc.
Even EMK talks about unconditional love, but then admits that he wouldn’t go out with a woman 40 lbs overweight. So what happens if his wife gains 40 lbs, for whatever reason?
These questions are part of the human condition. What the OP needs to know is that with this guy or not, she will be OK. I think she will be.
Karl, you reminded me of this one anecdote I read I don’t remember where, in which some very honest guy openly told his girlfriend (unprompted, as I recall) that it was her roommate he was initially interested in. And only when it became clear that nothing was going to pan out on that front did he pursue his eventual girlfriend. After which he very quickly became her ex-boyfriend. 😀
JuJu said: (#89)
“some very honest guy openly told his girlfriend (unprompted, as I recall)”
He didn’t need to lie. He just needed to keep his mouth shut … which everyone would consider to be an ethical option.
A tactless person supplies information or opinions when they are not solicited, needed or wanted. If Martine asked her boyfriend whether he would have dated her, then he was being honest. If she didn’t ask, then he was tactless.
I dunno, I think it’s hurtful both ways. 😐
And I am sorry, but Evan could hardly be used as a paragon of behavior in this regard (no offense) – after all, he told his then future wife that he never thought he’d end up with someone like her, and imagined it would be an East Coast, Jewish, Ivy-League-educated intellectual instead. That’s just not the kind of thing you say to someone you actually want to be with.
@JuJu: I’m not offended. And I hope you’re not offended when I say that I think you’re the type of person I wouldn’t want to marry. The type of person who gets offended by inoffensive truths. So WHAT if I wasn’t looking for my wife? So WHAT if she knows it? She wasn’t looking for ME either. Once you’re happy, in love, and married, who CARES about this crap?
Seriously, if you’re so thin-skinned that this kind of stuff offends you, you’re going to have a hard time connecting with any man who just wants to be himself, without pretense, without lies. It’s not an insult to say that I was chasing the wrong women for 35 years. It’s an insult that you think I should have to pretend around my own wife.
I truly feel sad that so many women in this day and age feel the need to go under the knife to feel worthy of love. And that quite a number of men encourage it because they’ve bought into what they media has been selling. Our culture doens’t support a womans’ natural body. I am not talking about being over-weight or anything like that but we seem more facinated with implants in America then real breasts. A woman’s natural beauty isn’t supported or encouraged, but the fantasy of what the world wants women to be is. Whether that’s due to wanting wome nto spend money or due to a male dominated society.
Women’s liberation didn’t factor in plastic surgery and too much disposable income. In foreign countries, women aren’t getting implants like we do in America. They like their normal non-perfect breasts. You don’t get plastic surgery if you feel completely confident in who you are as a person. I’m disappointed in the amount of women that subcumb to society preasure. And the amount of men that buy into the illusion of what society tells them a woman should look like.
I would also like to say take a hard look at someone like Lady Gaga. Talented beyond belief. Intelligent. Articulate. Sexy. But not beautiful. Not a hard body. No big huge fake breasts. If you saw her on the street sans wacky outfits, you wouldn’t look twice. But she is truly a dazzling entertainer and beautiful sexy woman. If you’ve never seen an interview with her, you should find a clip.
Lastly, Evan as a woman I’ve heard alot of guys say “even men get tired of sleeping (insert worse word for “sleeping”) with a beautiful woman” or “even men get tired of putting up wit ha beautiful woman’s crap”. And I never quite understood why they thought this was a positive reference for any woman. Infact, I find it to be kind of a negative and even boarding on degrogatory.
@JerseyGirl: It IS negative and derogatory. I wrote it because it’s TRUE.
By repeating it, I don’t endorse the sentiment, but acknowledge that it’s a commonly held sentiment.
Please stop shooting the messenger.
I think by agreeing with the statement as “true”, you are infact endorsing it. You even agree that the sentiment s negative and derogatory to women yet you thought it was worth putting in your blog to women. What isn’t endorsement if that? How is that positive? Women don’t need more comments endorsing negative derogoatory thoughts about them, especially the ones that agree certain sentiments are negative and derogatory. Almost like it’s just a woman’s lot in life to accept that this is the way men view us, degradement and negativitiy and all.
How is that any different then saying something negative about a person’s heritiage, culture or race and saying it’s “true” even if it is negative and derogoatry?
Look, I am really not trying to be difficult but lets try this exercise in all fairness.
You’re statement:
“See that hot woman over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.”
Inserted with different adjectives: ( My intent is not to offend ANYONE. Just to show how different a statement looks when certain words of equal value are inserted in place of others. Such as inserting “woman” for ‘African American”, ” Man”, or “Jew”.
We would never make these statements about others or think to! Lets stop making them about women under the pretense of “helpful”.
I am honestly not trying to be difficult. It just gets over whelming hearing how easily some guys can say things about women that aren’t very positive and we are suppose to listen to it as “truth”.
JuJu said: (#91)
“I think it’s hurtful both ways.”
You might want to read this blog post again:
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/the-secret-to-understanding-men-they-don%e2%80%99t-go-both-ways/
You don’t get a man who tells the truth when he should be truthful and lies when he should lie. You get a man who tells the truth damn near all of the time … or most of the time … or some of the time.
Unless you’re with someone who reads minds, your significant other doesn’t know when you want him to tell the truth and when you want him to lie. He does know when he’d prefer to lie to you … and that preference is going to color his decisions about when he lies.
The more often he tells the truth, the more likely it is that he will tell the truth when you’d like him to lie. The more often he lies, the more likely it is that he will lie when you would like him to tell the truth. Which of those two options are you more comfortable with?
JerseyGirl said: (#92)
“we seem more facinated with implants in America then real breasts.”
A lot of men prefer real to synthetic. That’s why Pamela Anderson isn’t attractive to me. She was a pretty girl before she had any plastic surgery.
I’m a big fan of reconstructive plastic surgery. I’m a big fan of the surgeries that help hideously deformed people look normal (or as close to normal as the surgery can take them). It’s the purely cosmetic surgery that tends to turn me off.
Why, I really don’t think that honesty and tact (or common sense) are mutually exclusive qualities.
#95 – JerseyGirl, Evan tells women the truth so that they can make positive changes in their lives, based on the way the world really is, not how we’d like it to be.
JerseyGirl, I’ve never heard anyone say, “See that hot Jew over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.” Whereas I have heard, “See that hot woman over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.”
I found better corroboration than The Onion for my claim that good lucks have a huge professional payoff, not just a relationship one.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/19/the-beauty-advantage.html
In a society obsessed with looks plastic surgery isn’t superficial, it’s sensible.
Chris, I’m curious, have you/would you go under the knife to improve your professional status?
I’ve noticed a surge of the men at my office getting eyelid surgery (Korean men). The CEO even encourages it (so I’ve been told by the office gossip). I get sad when some of my co-workers have their young children come to the office, and they look nothing like their parents…but they may someday because apparently some have their kids get the surgery when they hit 14.
I wonder how long before we performing cosmetic surgery on infants!
Karl, I agree with you on reconstructive surgery.
Cat, what positive change are women suppose to make from the comment that even *hot* women get old and boring to guys? I am not asking for cupcakes and ponies. I’m not asking to be lied to. I’m just asking for comments that are derogatory not to be made.
———————————————————————————-
Joe99
JerseyGirl, I’ve never heard anyone say, “See that hot Jew over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.” Whereas I haveheard, “See that hot woman over there? Some guy is getting sick of screwing her right now.”
———————————————————————————–
That’s exactly my point Joe. You would NEVER say “see that hot Jew/African American/Guy..etc etc etc” because that would be slanderous. But for some reason, it’s okay to say it about women. That’s not cool.
@JerseyGirl – You’re really missing the point here.
Nobody says “Someone’s getting sick of that screwing that Jew” because it doesn’t make any sense. It has no resonance. It’s nonsensical, like “Flapjacks taste better on Mars”.
The statement about women – whether you like it or think it’s derogatory – is something that is a WIDELY held sentiment among men. They chase the hot girl, get the hot girl, and realize that beauty is only skin deep. As such, this is more an indictment of THEM than it is of HER. They got the hot girl and now are bored with her – and need some stimulation. But to deny the reality of this statement, simply because it offends you, is patently foolish. You, as a woman, NEED to know what men think and what they feel in order to understand and connect with them.
To ignore a statement like “See that hot girl over there…” is the equivalent of an ostrich putting its head under the sand to hide.
So please, stop with the “Evan is derogatory” stuff. I’m not derogatory for reporting things that men say any more than the New York Times is derogatory for reporting what Mel Gibson said to his Russian girlfriend.
#102, I have to agree with Evan. He wouldn’t be doing his job if he didn’t tell you the truth about men, and some of that truth is ugly. You don’t have to like the truth. But getting angry at him won’t change anything. And frankly, I appreciate his honesty on these topics! I’m out there dating in the real world, not some imaginary one. It’s a good to remember that women can’t just rely on being “hot” to keep a man’s interest, even if that gets faster short-term results.
#85, Helen, I hope you’re getting over that illness! I love the Juno quotation and the way you applied it to your relationship.
#36, Annie, well-said! I had a boyfriend in college who refused to work out because he said he wanted to be loved as he was, not as he could be. Except he became a lawyer… Guess he’ll never know if he’s loved for his income or his… income! 🙂
I hope you don’t mind if I try to clarify your point about “see that hot girl over there…”
JerseyGirl-
Part of the meaning behind the phrase, as Evan pointed out, is the indictment of the guy who’s “tired of boinking her”.
You have to look at why he’s tired. One reason is that often times a guy will overlook very obvious flaws in a girl who’s very hot. Then he hooks up with her, and after a while he finds her beauty and the sex not enough to compensate for her being vapid, self-indulgent, a b*tch, a nag, or anything else that makes her personally unattractive to him. (This isn’t to say all hot women are as flawed as they are hot, but some are).
This is very typical of young (i.e. College-aged) guys. Been there and watched it happen over and over (not with me, but my peers).
So he’s not just tired of “screwin’ the hot chick”, he’s tired of dealin with her BS, and even her being hot isn’t enough to get past the nuisance of putting up with her non-physical shortcomings.
I’m late on this one, but I appreciate Sayanta chiming in on this. I think the racial issues here are being overlooked.
As a black woman who is not mixed race, but sometimes mistaken as such, I know that there are a number of successful “alpha” black men who are specifically seek out a lighter-skinned/mixed-race black woman. They might have spent their dating lives chasing whites (particularly blondes), but because of social/racial/community “obligations,” will choose to marry black.
BUT, the catch is that the black woman selected will rarely be dark with pronounced African features… she will often be fairer or mixed-race.
Another poster asked if Martine’s surgery put her closer to that “ideal,” which could be another reason that the black men that passed her by before are now suddenly coming out of the woodwork. Her boyfriend’s history of chasing blondes but now suddenly wanting a black woman to marry would be something that would make me raise an eyebrow… and if Martine’s new appearance is more “European” than her old look, then there is the legitimate concern as to whether her boyfriend was just looking to get a slightly darker version of the white women he seemed to prefer.
This could have consequences that could rear their ugly heads in a marriage. What if the children are “too dark” for him? What if he constantly talks about how great Martine’s less African features look? What if he continues to show a preference for a phenotype that she’s not, and makes it clear by his actions that his marrying a black/mixed-race woman was to basically save face in his community and not seem like he was a so-called traitor to black women?
If this was just about weight loss, I would say that Martine should work through whatever issue she had in accepting the compliments that came with her new body. But there’s so much more going on here…
To SS-
It’s funny, I actually see Indian men’s profiles on Match where they’re standing next to some cute blond chick. Umm….okay, what’s going on here? I’m guessing they didn’t cut her out of the photo, because they can say, “See! I can get a blond chick. I’m worthy after all!” It’s really sad.
Then again, I heard an Indian guy the other day complaining that Indian women do the same thing, so I guess it goes both ways….
SS said: (#106)
“What if he continues to show a preference for a phenotype she’s not, and makes it clear by his actions that his marrying a black/mixed-race woman was to basically save face in his community and not seem like he was a so-called traitor to black women?”
SS,
I realize that you’re stating a dating reality and not necessarily expressing your own opinion, but this statement jumped out at me.
If I were to marry a woman who was black, oriental, Indian or native American, the only people who would call me a traitor to my race would be the white supremecist bigots. I have no “obligation” to choose a partner based upon the approval of bigots, nor do I feel any need to “save face” with them.
How would you describe a community where those type of obligations exist? How would you describe a community that judges individuals based upon the color of the person they marry?
SS said: (#106)
“[…] there’s so much more going on here…”
I think you’re right. There is a lot more going on here.
” How would you describe a community that judges individuals based upon the color of the person they marry?”
This happens all the time, Karl — in East Asian communities, South Asian communities, African American communities, French communities where there’s been a comparatively substantial influx of Algerian immigrants.
The fact that you’re so incredulous about it really indicates to me that you’ve never had to deal with it, and so really don’t have any idea about how harsh the psychological ramifications can be on people who do.
M, thanks for bumping this. Somehow I totally forgot about this post!
So let me respond to Karl, about one year later… if he even remembers or cares about this question!
SS said: (#106)
“What if he continues to show a preference for a phenotype she’s not, and makes it clear by his actions that his marrying a black/mixed-race woman was to basically save face in his community and not seem like he was a so-called traitor to black women?”
If I were to marry a woman who was black, oriental, Indian or native American, the only people who would call me a traitor to my race would be the white supremecist bigots. I have no “obligation” to choose a partner based upon the approval of bigots, nor do I feel any need to “save face” with them.
How would you describe a community where those type of obligations exist? How would you describe a community that judges individuals based upon the color of the person they marry?
You are correct that I was not stating my opinion, but a dating reality in many minority communities. I don’t consider a person who marries interracially to be a “traitor” to anything… that would be foolish, BUT, if a particular person is considered to be a scion of the community and wants to position himself or herself that way, having a mate of a different race could, in the eyes of some in that community, make that person seem like a hypocrite and it certainly could be brought up as a mark against him or her if he or she is attempting to hold some sort of social or political leadership position in that community.
Speaking of the African-American community in general, the practice of prominent men heavily selecting their wives and potential wives from the lightest end of the color spectrum is rather common and almost predictable. Yes, some of those couples just happened to meet and fall in love, but to think there’s no sort of social selection going on is naive. My cousin, who is a lighter-skinned black woman with long thick hair, was approached in one of her college classes by a fellow student who showed interest in dating her. Well, he eventually told her that she had the “right look” for him as an aspiring professional black man.
I WISH I could say I was lying about this, but my cousin is a very quiet and shy young woman who couldn’t make this stuff up.
So, from the perspective of a black woman who has heard stories from family and friends — including a grandmother — on all sides of the color spectrum about skin color affecting their perceived value as a mate, it is not much of a stretch for me to speculate that this man who pursued Martine would have preferred to marry a white woman based on his dating history. BUT, if he has grown up in a community that has a strong sense of ethnic pride and frowns on people outright shunning the opposite gender of their own race in favor of someone white, he probably knows he can cut down on the negative comments by marrying someone who is mixed race and would be seen as a black woman.
And like M said, this is not a black only thing… I’ve heard people from a variety of minority groups express similar situations that go on in their communities.
SS said: (#110)
“So let me respond to Karl, about one year later… if he even remembers or cares about this question!”
I think I was on hiaitus when you (and m) responded, but fortunately I stumbled across the thread again.
Contrary to m’s belief, I wasn’t incredulous about the existence of the phenomenon. I’ve witnessed it firsthand (in a workplace that was sufficiently mixed-race that there was no majority). I was pointing out that the community has some serious issues with racism.
I live in the bible belt. There’s a married couple in their 70’s who belong to our church and have been devoted and loyal members of our church since the first moved to the city. They struck me as being a little unusual for the church … quite conservative compared to other members, but utterly dedicated in their support of the church.
They joined the church as a young married couple. A mixed-race couple in the pre-civil rights era. Our church was the one church that accepted them unconditionally. It was their refuge in a city that was mostly hostile to what they represented.
Decades later, almost every white church in the city would respect them for what they are: unsung heroes of the civil rights struggle. (Just two out of tens of thousands, but you get my point.) However, a mixed-race couple in a minority community risks being ostracized (with one branded as a traitor) for exercising the same rights that the same community was willing to march and die to gain.
It’s kind of depressing if you think it all the way through. Why haven’t people come further in the last 55 years?
Karl R: Are you saying you believe white people are generally more accepting of interracial relationships than black people? Sorry to burst your bubble but that is just not true.
Wow, that letter was sad. But the fact that her boyfriend didn’t leave her even after finding out she had so much surgery is comforting, in a way. Some men would be turned off but he was understanding. I think that’s a good sign. I hope they are together now.
I don’t want to judge her for having surgery. I’m aware that so much of my confidence comes from being conventionally beautiful and I totally understand why women would want to have a bit of nip-n-tuck if they can afford it to feel better–in her case, a lot of nip-n-tuck. I think she needs therapy to work thru these issues, because she sounds painfully insecure, and that can spoil her life if she’s not careful.
That said, I think the reason for her having surgery was quite unhealthy–she did it to get a man. Surgeons always say–do it for yourself, not for others. I guess this sad scenario mentioned by the OP is a reason why. The unfortunate thing is that so many people who have surgery do it for these bad reasons because they weren’t considered attractive, thus they didn’t grow up with healthy self-esteem and healthy thinking. Paradoxically, many women who are confident enough to do surgery primarily “for themselves” are women who wouldn’t feel the need to have surgery in the first place!
I’m no hottie, but I bore a strong physical resemblance to my ex husbands mother in her younger days. So while objectively speaking, I’m no “10”, in HIS eyes I was.
Years later he told a marriage counselor that he ONLY married me for my looks. He pretty much told me that he wanted kids so he married me. So I guess he saw me as a brood mare who could make pretty little babies for him. He has since then tried to take those words back, but some things just can’t be unsaid.
Funny, when we were dating, he did say he admired my strong, independent spirit. (I thought men didn’t like that). He was impressed that I owned my own condo and that I moved out of state all on my own and started a new life on my own. He also did say that I made him feel like “the handsomest man in the world” and that he “adored” me.
Maybe that was all a foreshadowing. He wanted he wanted a nice looking kid, he wanted an ego stroke, and he wanted to be able to walk away guilt free in the end, knowing that I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself.
Of course I want any man I’m with to think I’m some form of attractive (cute, beautiful, pretty, whatever) but I would like it to be more than that. Of course I want him to feel good around me (as I should around him), but there has to be more. Apparently being smart, funny, outgoing and independent doesn’t impact a man’s attraction to a woman, it seems to be all about being “hot” and making HIM feel good. Which is all a good start, but doesn’t always last through to the end.
@Emerald Dust: I believe that there are men who indeed are attracted by certain non-appearance traits in women, such as smartness, being outgoing and independence. And these may have been factors in your husband falling for you–what he told the marriage counselor might’ve been said in a moment of spite or bitterness.
Actually sometimes these character traits or intelligence do contribute to a man feeling good. If he values these traits, then I think getting a woman with those traits makes him feel like a winner. U may also have heard of a study finding that when people associate someone with positive personality traits, they actually view that person as being more physically attractive than before. (And I think also if the person has similarities to themselves). So I believe your smarts and character traits do matter a lot in attraction. 🙂
Interesting that mention those things. I’m sort of interested in though we are not exclusive yet (complicated) but this guy has described all the women he has dated as being stunning. He actually described how his ex was the most stunning woman he had ever been that close to. The first woman he slept with was a 9, no a 10. So as you can see, I feel like I’ve got alot of competition.
At the beginning he said I was cute, once or twice he said I was beautiful but it hasn’t happened since a few months ago. Nowadays I’m just “cute”. I don’t know if I want to be just “cute” for someone, if that’s good enough for me to be honest. I’m not a stunner, but I’d like to be with someone who thinks I’m really attractive on the outside as well as the inside. But I feel like I’m asking for alot.
This is why I don’t like online dating. You get to know the person on the inside first before the outside. If i wasn’t talking to you online, if we crossed each other on the street would either of us notice one another? It sounds shallow, but I’ve never really found guys seeking me out, though my ex did think i was attractive back in the day.
Sorry if this was said before or if I missed something but, dors she even like this guy? Does she think he’s. a good man,? Does she really know him well? Does she respect him? Does she think he has a good heart? Maybe she should focus more on her love for him rather than his for her. What if he were not as attractive, woukd she still care about him as a person?
This lady will never be happy in life, because she is so unhappy with herself. She is going to sabotage any relationship she is in.