DISCOVER HOW SMART, STRONG & SUCCESSFUL WOMEN (THAT'S YOU!) CAN FINALLY Find Your Man
DISCOVER HOW
SMART WOMEN LIKE YOU CAN
FINALLY Find Your Man
Take this short quiz
to discover what you need to do now.
Take this short quiz now
Money is a big topic on this blog.
We’ve talked about how some women take advantage of good-hearted low-earning boyfriends.
We’ve talked about how some women expect men to make more money, even if they make a good living independently.
We’ve talked about how some women refuse to even reach for a check.
These are all arguments I’ve made for equality. In this day and age, with women earning more college degrees and masters degrees, it’s anachronistic to expect men to ALWAYS pay and ALWAYS earn more.
But Lisa’s question really cuts to the heart of women’s issues around money. What happens if you’re dating a man without skills, without ambition, and without the desire to be a better provider?
This is not about who earns more. This is about two things: what’s fair and what you’re comfortable with.
This is my client’s worst nightmare — even though I can’t see any of my clients dating a man with a truck payment and $600 to spare each month. So let me begin, Lisa, by expressing my admiration and sympathy to you. You fell in love with a man based on what’s in his heart and not in his wallet, and that says a lot about your character.
The question is whether it’s enough.
My answer to you will be a gender-blind one, because that’s the way we need to begin to look at financial issues. This is not about who earns more. This is about two things: what’s fair and what you’re comfortable with.
Objectively, this arrangement isn’t fair. But then, in a gender-blind society, who said things had to be fair? I made about four times what my wife made when we met. Would it have been fair for me to ask her to split our rent in half? No, it would not. We split it based on our means to pay. I could have resented the fact that I made four times more than her, but I chose not to. I wasn’t with her for her money or ability to split costs. I was with her because of how I felt in her presence.
These days, my wife doesn’t work at all. She stays at home with the kids, goes to Mommy and Me classes, swimming classes, MyGym and Disneyland, all of which I pay for. Do I resent her? Not one bit. This is what she wants to do, and I’m fortunate to have the means to allow her to do it. This is the bargain we struck as a couple. This is the bargain any woman can strike with a man, as long as she doesn’t resent him for earning less or being a stay at home dad.
I’m guessing every reader here had the same initial reaction to your email, “Lisa, you poor girl! Dump him!” I can see where that impulse comes from, but I don’t think it’s acknowledging your deep feelings for your boyfriend. You’ve spent two years with him. You say that he’s the “nicest, most wonderful man” you know.
In order to salvage this relationship, a few things have to happen.
First, you need to have an authentic conversation with him. You need to start by acknowledging how much you love and appreciate him. Then you need to acknowledge that you’ve been feeling a little bit of resentment. You’re not proud of it, but you’re owning it.
Next, you can break it down for him. You contribute five times more to the household than he does, even though you only make X dollars more. Even though you appreciate his pre-existing payments, that’s imbalanced and is a serious burden for you to carry alone. Get his acknowledgement of this fact.
What you’d like to do is sit down and do a budget of how much each of you makes and would like to pay the rent and bills proportionately, whatever that means. This would include how much money you make from child support and would exclude how much he pays in child support. We’re talking about take home pay only.
There’s nothing wrong with marrying a poor guy if you have the means to support him. There IS something wrong with marrying a poor guy who doesn’t have a sense of fairness and appreciation for your efforts.
If it still comes out to $600 for him and $3000 for you, you can suggest a work around. He can sell his truck and buy something cheaper, if that’s possible. You can go to Mint.com and look at how to better balance your budget. But the one thing that is going to have to change is how much he contributes to the household in non-monetary ways. He’s gotta do 50% of the cooking and 50% of the cleaning at a bare minimum to ease your burden as the primary breadwinner.
Make it clear that you don’t resent him because he makes less than you. Not everyone can have a high paying job. The reason this feeling is building up inside is that you feel taken for granted. And if the roles were reversed and he was paying $3000/month AND doing all the cooking and cleaning, he’d probably feel resentful, too, no?
His reaction to this conversation will tell you whether you have a relationship worth preserving. There’s nothing wrong with marrying a poor guy if you have the means to support him. There IS something wrong with marrying a poor guy who doesn’t have a sense of fairness and appreciation for your efforts.
Please come back and let us know how that conversation goes.
Ruby says
This stands out for me; “He doesn’t cook or clean either. He is the nicest, most wonderful man I know” In this day and age, the “nicest, most wonderful man” should be able to lift a finger around the house once in awhile. The woman works two jobs, takes care of two kids, and this nice guy expects his girlfriend to do all the cooking and housework too?
“Even if he made more money he says he won’t pay half because, in all fairness, I get child support and he shouldn’t have to pay half. He says he will pay a third.”
Yet, he doesn’t have to do at least a third of the cooking and cleaning? What’s “fair” about that? We can quibble about whether or not he should be paying half or a third, but right now, he’s only paying one-fifth, and not doing any household chores to boot. All he needs to do is to show up with flowers once in a while. Sweet deal for him.
Jennifer says
AGREED!!
Kelli says
Yes, I agreed 100%.
Maya says
I was in the same situation ….I finely dump him .You have rock on you back that will sink you . Run ….that’s my advise to you .
Jo says
I was in the same situation, he didn’t pay for groceries or clean up when I cooked every night. He flat out refused to get another job. Grass doesn’t grow under my feet. And I realized I can’t stand a man where grass will grow under his. I left him and now have a wonderful man that totally supports me and cooks and cleans. I enjoy doing for him because that makes him a great guy
The MAN says
This guy sounds like a joker. Nicest guy? Lazy is anything but nice. I bust my ass at 2 jobs, pulling in 3x what my partner makes, pay 90% of the bills AND I make breakfast and dinner every single day and clean the damn house. Then I still find time for the kids and to take the lady on dates. That’s a REAL man.
However, if you asked my wife, she would reply that she accomplishes all of this somehow from her seated position on the couch while watching real housewives a majority of the day. Delusional thoughts from fantasy island… So first ask yourself how much you ACTUALLY do.
People with no ambition are no better than a dog, in fact, they are more costly and don’t listen nearly as well. I own 2 dogs.
Brooke Jones says
Facts!
S says
I agree with you 100%.
jenbeck says
Sorry MAN, but you sound a little resentful yourself.
Crystal says
Curious – what do you even like about your wife? It sounds like you do so much and not only does she not see it, but somehow thinks she does the same thing. Do you have kids, if that’s the reason you’re staying?
Sammy says
To be fair, I would be resentful too if I had a partner like that. Although I wouldn’t even use the word ‘partner’ since that suggests you are a team.
I’m sick of watching so many gold-diggers and lazy women leech off men while I work my ass off every day and can’t even get a man to date me! It’s almost as if men these days have been trained to only date/marry parasites. I get to listen to married guy after married guy complain to me about their wives, and get to have women like this ask me to hook them up with richer men I know (I work with wealthy clients). All the while I’m left wondering why I’m so repulsive to men in comparison. It’s hard not to feel just a tiny bit resentful after so many years of the same thing.
Uncommondiva says
Ruby,
I could not have said it better!
Missy says
ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘👠Absolutely on point.
Sherri says
She is better off by herself! The “boyfriend” has it easy. Let’s see how well he would be doing if he was paying rent, a car payment and child support without her help. He is a mooch! Definitely not a good role model to have around her kids.
Bernadette says
I’m in the same situation. My son’s father live with me and he quit his job 9 years ago and he never went back to work. He said he injured his back on his job, and his job paid him disability benefits for about 3 years and when that ran out he started getting SSI because he was not eligible for SSDI. It do not seem like he is disabled at home he runs up and down steps, Walk down the steps without holding on to anything and walk long distances. That do not sound like he have a disability, to me it sound like he is milking the system. I been on my job for 11 years and I get up everyday and go to work while he enjoys a stress free life. Our monthly bills are $2300 per month and he only give me $400 per month and my 20 year old son give me $300 per month for room and board and my son have autism and is unable to live on his own. I also have a 17 year old daughter that’s in her last year of school. I have a lot on my plate. Also our 11 year old son need braces now. I only bring home per month from my job 2200 per month. And I also by every and anything we need for our house and the kids once I’m done with that and pay my student loans I have no money for myself. This is beginning to be too much for me to see him sitting on his butt. He also proposed to me 10 years ago without a ring. This is too much for me.
Yo its me says
Right! They need to live separately or become strictly roomates!
amydkl says
I love the gender-neutral advice but I’m not sure why he should support her kids that another man is paying for. In the breakdown, the child support should pay for the children’s portion of the household and then they should divvy up the rest. Although that sounds kind of cold, I think that math would be more fair to him.
Dan says
Your math is incorrect. You mean, the ex’s child support, plus her half of the child support (based on the percentage of her income), then they shouldn’t split the rest at all. It’s not his fault she has a lot of bills and has a high mortgage. ($600 should be accurate because that’s probably what he was paying when he had a small apartment) It’s not like he even gets his own room, he has to share a bedroom with her. I’m sure she lets him watch her kids for her too and pick them up from school and drop them off. How much does she pay him for that?
Adeline says
“It’s not like he even gets his own room, he has to share a bedroom with her.” They’re a couple not freaking roommates. What’d you expect?
Jazzy says
Agreed that was a dumb statement for that they might as well just be roommates.
UrIgnorant22 says
They rented the small house and picked it out together! Please read it thoroughly. He is a joke! Lazy and most likely a mama’s boy. As we mothers tend to coddle our sons. They have been together 2 years, then decided to move in together. Note 4 months later he is not contributing equally or even a third of the bills and doesn’t cook or clean. She works 2 jobs with 2 kids and pays $2400 of the bills plus, cooks and cleans. How can you even fathom what you wrote? You obviously didn’t read this whole post!
S says
I agree with you 100%
DoTheMathToo says
Dear Urignorant.
There are two problems here. One is contributing to taking care of the house and kids in terms of time and energy. This is a question of generousity, and of hours… picking up the kids from school, taking them to activities, etc. If there is nothing there, there is nothing there, and that is a big problem.
The second problem is financial. The story in his head is that he contributes financially to his kids, and her ex husband contributes to her kids, so there is a “karmic balance”. The story in her head is that she is alone to pay for and do everything… there is a focus on everything he doesn’t pay or do rather than what he does pay or does do.
He has 600 dollars. He is going to pay 1/3 of the bills. The bills are 2400 dollars.
He is going to pay 1000 dollars (1/3) instead of 1500. (1/2)
He has 600 dollars to contribute to running a household. One that is more expensive because of her kids. He is already going to have to do something to not start in the hole from day one.
We have to look at the math and the feelings, because you can’t just legislate higher payments if there is no money. Aside from emasculating the boyfriend and venting, I am not sure what outcomes you expect from demanding equal payments.
IMHO, the focus should be on how the bf can make more money and/or how he can better support the gf if she is simply more capable of making money than he is.
Silje says
What a waste of time investing such a selfish. I can’t even see him as a man. He is there to get almost everything for free. Would be nicer if he cook or clean. He needs a Mother not a wife or a woman in his life. But it’s all up to you if you want to let him continue doing that. But anyway goodluck!
maureen says
When a woman has a child, and wants a serious relationship, or rather HE wants one with her, her children are part of that. There is no “mine, his, hers, BS..”, it’s OURS!! He needs to step up to the plate or end the relationship and date someone with no kids. Sounds like he’s a child himself. He may be sweet and kind, but he doesn’t sound like a grown up, and that woman and her kids need a grown up around to grow a future with. This guy is temporary and needs go back to the playground. And this woman needs to end this immature relationship!! It’s not healthy for her and the kids in the long run.
UrIgnorant22 says
And why would he get his own room when they are a couple? Your comment is ignorant in every way possible. You must be one of those freeloaders dan! Seriously, your way of thinking is what’s wrong with this world. Your blatant ignorance and arrogance it’s amusing and comical. Anyone who thinks he shouldn’t have to contribute equally is wrong. He knew who he was moving in with, his significant other! They share a room (duh)! He should be cleaning and cooking 50% of the time no matter what. Especially since he is not man enough to help support the family he wanted to have (they are not his but wanted and chose to be with her and move in with her and her kids) in a house they picked out TOGETHER! He is just an example of how men think we should still cook and clean and now they want us to pay all the bills and take care of the kids too! Sick!
Georgia Woolery says
Back in the day, people called the free loaders, squatters, lol… I have one of those also! Trying to make the decision.. takes full advantage of me. I’m just trying to get my children raised with help. Co-parenting!! Lol..
Missy says
Whoa! ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘Thank YOU!!
S says
I agree with you 100%
Anonymous says
Thank you! I’m not crazy. This is my current situation.
Carla says
why she wants to be with him? she can just walk away! if she feels that he is not in the same path … ask him to leave! how simple it is .. or she leaves and bring her children with her, moves somewhere else. She is not a tree! she is freely to go and to choose what is the best for her.
Why the guy has to pay for her children and why she also expect the guy to clean the house .. then she needs a maid not a boyfriend.
Marksaa says
If you become involved with someone who has children, you know what you’re getting into and you are taking on that responsibility. You don’t get to decide to be with a mother and not be a parent to the kids. So yes he is responsible just as equally as her. She mentioned she had her own place too and was managing just fine. It was a consensual agreement to move in together. He knew it would cost more and still agreed.
Naomi banks says
Lmao 600??????? Where do you even find a one bedroom for nearly close to 600??? Maybe in the hood at a government assistance home . 600 is maybe one bedroom if your lucky in California . This guys a bum kick his ass out girl to girl advice !
Sherri says
Exactly!!!
Kendra says
They are in a relationship. I would hate to see what you’re relationships are like. ♀️
Dot says
men who think like that shouldn’t date mothers in the first place. If you come into this family then your basically excepting some of the responsibility of those kids it’s a package deal . If not date single childless women only make your own amd support them .
Rhayn says
that’s exactly right. Why date a woman with responsibilities such as kids and then move into a home together? He’s taking advantage of her and benefitting off of her children support to minimize his portion of paying. If after his truck payment he only has $600 to pay towards bills, how is he paying for upkeep if vehicle, gas, clothes, fast food, hanging out, and all those other expenditures. He’s a freeloader and using her kids as reason to get out of his fair share. There’s a difference between bf and roommate and he’s living both lives.
Naomi banks says
You said that right !!!!!! First of all for him to even think he’s not “responsible “ for taking care of her kids well then why did he get involved ???? So when they ask him for things is he going to say he’s not “responsible “ to buy these kids things !!! I swear if a guy told me that I would slap him straight in the face and kick his ass out !!!!! Your kids should be considered his life as well if he didn’t want to be “ responsible “ or have anything to do with him then that should be YOUR ANSWER AS A MOM TO LEAVE HIM ! Seems like he’s finding excuse after excuse sweetly don’t be blind there’s way to many men out here ewe he sounds disgusting I wouldn’t even want to give him any I would’ve so turned off yuck
Spuds says
OMG thank you! My bf of 9 yrs last night got into an argument over money. He doesnt make as much as I do but makes enought to cover what needs to be covered with enough left over for fun food gas whatever….he cooks and cleans. We live on a tight budget. Dont go out much. He wants me to pay more for everything since I get child support. I can barely pay all my bills, sports, rent, etc with my salary and support. I feel like I have a roommate. He just started working and thinks hes entitled to his whole check. I cant even ask for him to pick up milk half the time. He doesnt like how much our rent is but I have looked for cheaper and if he contributed more or with out argumenet we could get a better place that would make us all happy. he made me feel like my kid is not important to him. He wants to be called step daddy but doesnt want to pitch him and teach my son how to be a man. when he does contribute he throws it in my face later that he has no money and I want to live this high fancy life style that he cant afford. which is not true. we live check to check. and the fanciest thing weve done in 9 years is camping or went to catalina and stayed in the cheapest hotel for my birthday which i paid for.
Sandra D says
Baby please leave him!!!!!! Omg wtf?
Zara says
this is a tough situition for blended families, regarding how much a person needs to contribute. I feel bad for lisa it’s frustrating when your partner has limited funds but she knew he pay child support to his ex when she met him. Considering she is receiving child support from her ex he is correct that he should not have to pay 50 of the bills. Also by giving to her kids he is taking away funds from his kids. It puts him in an difficult position to choose who kids are more important.
you can only give what you have and have to work within you budget.
Goldie says
OP, why did you two not sit down and go over finances before you signed the lease on that house? It looks to me like you both are stretching yourselves, and putting yourselves in real danger of not being able to pay the bills if something happens to one of your incomes. But what is more relevant to the subject of your letter, the fact that he can only pay $600 and you’re stuck with paying $3000, should not have come as a surprise after you moved in. You should have been aware of it before you signed the lease on that house; and if you felt you were not okay with that situation (I probably wouldn’t be – paying 5x what the other person does is too much pressure financially!) then you two should not have moved into that house to begin with.
As far as the arrangement not being fair. I started typing a long reply about how the man gives as much as he can, and how I’ve been in that situation myself with my most recent bf (our incomes were the same, but my discretionary income was a fraction of his, because his children are already out of the house and mine are not). But then I saw a few details in the letter that made me reconsider.
I work two jobs and he works one. …. He doesn’t cook or clean either.
Why is he not pulling his weight around the house, especially if he only works one job and you work two? It wouldn’t require any extra money on his part to do most of the housework, so you don’t have to do it after you come home from your two jobs.
Even if he made more money he says he won’t pay half because, in all fairness, I get child support and he shouldn’t have to pay half. He says he will pay a third.
What is that supposed to mean? You get child support because you have children under 18 living with you, who probably cost you a lot more than you ever get in child support. It’s not just some free money that you receive for no reason. He should pay proportionally to what you both have, and not worry about where your money came from. How is that “in all fairness”? There’s nothing fair about this statement of his. It sounds to me like this man, nice as he is, is not pulling his weight around the house. This is why you feel resentful, not because he has less money. I suggest you two sit down and talk about how he can contribute more in non-monetary ways (since he really and truly doesn’t have the money).
PS. Why does he keep buying flowers when he can only contribute 20% of what you do to household expenses? Can’t he give that money to you instead, to go towards paying the bills? There are plenty of ways for a man to make a woman feel loved and appreciated without spending the money he does not have, especially if she will then have to pick up his monetary slack.
Dayna says
I so agree
Carla says
Why the man should pay anything?
What if the man who is in her position? would that fair if she pays only 600$ … surely everyone says yes! because the children are his responsible, right?
Alicia says
“These days, my wife doesn’t work at all.” Ummm……don’t you mean, that your wife doesn’t earn income? Because not only does she work, she’s given up her career to spend her days shaping the lives of your children. I’m just sayin’ lol.
Dennis says
That’s wayyyyyyy sexist. My wife doesn’t work, I do all the cooking and she does maybe half the cleaning and laundry (maybe). I’ve dated LOTS of women that haven’t got the slightest idea how to cook. As a matter of fact, I think these days, men cook more than women (unless you consider pulling something from the freezer and putting it in the oven cooking). Basically, YOU ARE A SEXIST
Mike says
I think that was a general comment, not a negative one towards his wife. He meant she doesn’t HAVE to work and she is lucky and he is lucky that their in that financial position to where she can devote her time to her kids.
Marilee says
Thank you. I was thinking the same thing.
AMarie says
Upper class/upper middle class women don’t have that bone to pick. Saying, “I don’t work.” “She doesn’t work.” isn’t insulting to a big slice of the population.
Zara says
But Goldie, he is already paying child support for his own children. Is it fair to ask him to pay 50% of someone else. He can’t afford to give anymore. I’ve experience the same situation with an ex … I became resentful of supporting his children and was excepted to contribute 50. I feel it was unfair … and lead to us breaking
it really helps to talk about these kinda issues before you move in. I can’t express enough create a budget …
Ruby says
Goldie #4
You can buy a $5 bunch of flowers from the grocery store. I once dated a guy who gave me flowers he had picked from someone else’s community garden plot. It doesn’t necessarily mean shelling out big bucks.
Dan says
Perhaps if he’s short on cash he could have just gone to a cemetery, and see if anyone left any flowers. That way he can afford to give the money-grubbing woman her money, because that’s all she really wants at the end-of-the-day. I’m sure he watches her kids while she’s working her 2 jobs, but that doesn’t even enter into the equation. I don’t see any posts that take that into consideration I doubt she’s picking them up, dropping them off and paying for daycare.
Cass says
the “money grubbing” woman also works two jobs & does all the chores & buys the groceries etc. I wish i had a sweet deal where all I had to do was work one job, not do any chores, get free food, buy flowers “when i can” and all I had to do was pick up kids (if that is the case. The story doesn’t specify). Oh, and especially make sure to not do any chores. That’s key. Live with someone who works two jobs, pays five times the bills and I’ve got to make sure not to do any chores because I’m the nicest guy in the world. She’s just a moneygrubbing woman.
Melissa says
Instead of bashing her about being money hungry (Dan) feel her frustration …. Ok yes she gets child support that pays for the daycare that he “drops them off at” clothing, food,sports, or anything else that you do for your kids….and on top of that it sounds like she is going everything it take to make sure she has extra spending money with is what you gotta do in life… On top of coming home cooking, cleaning. relationship are suppose to be 50/50 and when you get with someone that has kids then you do help take care of them…. And I can say that I’ve been in a similar situation with my kids dad but I was the only one working, cooking, cleaning and he was abusive to us and now we’re not together and I don’t get child support… My boyfriend pays out 1,000 dollars a month for 2 kid and I don’t agree with the child support laws that’s way to much… we are struggling and I to am doing all the cooking, cleaning and I’m looking for a second job so therefore I feel the same way ….. If you don’t have any nice helpful commits maybe you shouldn’t commit…
Angie says
I agree with Evan’s opinions about cooking and cleaning, but I’m also seconding Goldie #4’s sentiment… How did you not know eachother’s budgets BEFORE moving in?
I don’t see how he managed to live off $600 a month before as a subletter, but if that’s his claim, I suppose it’s possible. I’m confused how he managed to iive in an area where $3600 is an average (?) household expense for that area. Or… did you find an overpriced place because it is something that you really like? Does your ex pay a lot in child support that makes this affordable? (even with two jobs?)
I’m just trying to read between the lines because $600 seems low and $3600 seems high. That’s over $40k towards rent, utilities and food per year. I’ve lived in Los Angeles and NYC and never paid that much total, even factoring in roommates’ share. I know Evan mentioned your boyfriend give up his truck, but I’m not sure that’s fair… Are you in an overpriced house? Having a lot of frivolous extras like cable channels, etc, that you could get rid of?
Granted, now that you are in the scenario, you have to deal with it. I can see it leading to resentment on both sides. Yours is obvious, but if he truly was capable of thriving off $600 a month for living expenses (which I doubt, unless his old roommate was supporting him), I could see him resenting you for insisting he work a second job to pay for a household that is expensive. I’d look to cut costs in other ways… couponing, being more conscientious about your utilities, perhaps downsizing to a less expensive home, before broaching your boyfriend about his truck. That seems like a recipe for disaster.
Good luck in getting him to do chores, though! And perhaps find out which chores he hates. I am friends with a couple where the husband does 95% of the cooking and the wife does 95% of the cleaning… because they like it that way. I know another couple where the man pays 100% of the rent and utilities and the girlfriend buys groceries and does the cooking. My mom does most of the “inside the house” chores like vacuuming/dusting and my dad does yardwork and big projects like renovating the kitchen.There is no formula for any of this stuff… It’s means, talents, etc.
Your problem is really that you are not on the same page. You need to find a working solution, not figure out who needs to do what and resenting eachother.
Goldie says
To Zara, I’d have to see how much her child support is first (and his.) Mine is a drop in the bucket, compared to both what I make, what the children’s father makes, as well as to my expenses. And from talking to other divorced mothers, I get more than most. I heard numbers like $60/month for two kids. That would hardly be worth taking into account in my opinion. Either way, like Ruby said, we can argue about whether he should pay 50% or 33%, but in the meantime, he pays 16%. That’s nowhere close to him supporting her children, or himself even.
Also, he lives with her. He knew what he was getting into. I get it that expenses related to children are high, and only get higher as they grow older, all the way until they’re out of college with full time jobs of their own. But, if it is that big of a deal to him, then he could’ve said, when they were discussing finances prior to moving in together, Honey you spend X dollars a month on your children. I’m not their dad and I don’t want any part of these expenses. Let’s divvy up the rest, but your kids are your responsibility. He could even go into details and split up the electric bill, gas bill, water bill… you know how much time those teenagers spend in the shower? right? why should he pay for that? What I’m saying is, he should’ve said what was on his mind before they moved in together. Then she would’ve had a choice to decide NOT to move in together, because of what he said. But no, he’s surprising her with this stuff now, when she cannot back out.
Ruby, $5 on a regular basis is still a lot when all you can contribute is $150/week… Community garden plot? Oh my. Men can be so creative. *chuckle*
Sunflower says
I have to say, Evan’s advice is fair and reasonable. Good luck to the OP. Hope her boyfriend responds in a way that will preserve the relationship.
Jackie H. says
The least he could do is cook and or clean sometimes…
Cory says
Gender-blind advice sounds very enlightened on paper or a computer screen. But in the real world, genders exist. And we cannot escape millions of years of biology based on, at most, the past say 100 years of enlightenment.
The fact is, even deep down, the most enlightened among us really do expect men to be providers, and women to be good nurturers. We ignore that at our peril. Evan is absolutely right, we can make accommodations for a man who earns less. But that man better bring a sense of manliness to the table somehow. This man simply does not. The most damning evidence: he would not pay more than an arbitrary third even if he earned more. There is no sense of chivalry or courage or self sacrifice or honor there. Those things should define a man more than his genitals. I think we all instinctively understand that, which is why even enlighten people feel uncomfortable with his behavior.
Salad says
You have worded my sentiment better than
anyone.
Hannah says
Absolutely accurate! Well said Cory. What makes a man?
Courtney says
perfectly stated!
BLINGBLANGGANG says
OH YES!! Ding ding ding!! Well said and I agree. A womans ability to work and earn a living should not and does not diminish what women expect of a M.A.N.
Cathalei says
It’s not even about gender. It’s about expectations and it has nothing to do with so called enlightenment either as previous generations were not necessarily arbitrarily close minded about those things. They centered survival abilities and divided tasks accordingly. That’s about proportion.
The central issue is their respective budgets. Don’t move in with someone before discussing your budgets. They should contribute based on their time and availability. It has nothing to do with arbitrary enlightenment but sharing responsibilities. We have read men talking about how women they date not attempting to pay even once and constantly demanding to be taken out even their incomes wouldn’t allow it. As for moving in, they should openly discuss their budgets and time beforehand rather than figuring out what she/he must do and resent it.
Sherry says
Well said Cory I 100% agree
Yuri says
I have been living with my boyfriend of two years for over 6 months now. He makes less than I do, but we split the rent in half. Prior to moving in together, we looked for an apartment that would be under his monthly budget, which has consistently been $1,000/month. The apartment we have is under his budget. Meanwhile, I pay for the more costly utilities like electricity and Comcast bundle while he pays for gas and water.
As for household chores, I cook mostly, but that’s because I enjoy cooking. I mop and clean the bathroom and kitchen while he vacuums and dusts. And dishes are done by the non-chef individual. We both do laundry, and we both fold clothes. We have it down to a science at this point. Neither one of us is resentful, and both of us are accountable.
When you make quadruple the salary of your partner, even triple, bearing the majority of the financial burden is logical – depending on your partner’s salary. I make almost double what my partner makes, but with all the other bills I have (and he does not), it would not be comfortable for me to pay for this entire apartment…especially because we live in DC. That’s why we chose an apartment the both of us could afford comfortably, and I took on the majority of the additional household expenses.
However, the household burden is even. We are both working people, and we both have lives. Our home is our responsibility.
Honestly, I don’t think you’d feel half as resentful as you do if your man just helped you around the house. You have kids. That is not easy. You probably have your hands full when you get home. Yes, you have child support, but you don’t have (non-financial) help. And, like a previous commenter said, nice men generally are more helpful at home.
While I see this is mostly about money, I feel like your concerns would be better addressed with just having help at home. Personally, that would be my main area of concern.
However, if you would like to discuss expense distribution, here is some food for financial thought that you really should consider:
You want him to contribute more to a single-family home when it’s your family. You’re responsible for three individuals, and he’s only responsible for himself. For this reason, you should most certainly be paying more. How much more is a different story. If your place is $3600/month, then he should be able to pay at least $900. That would be at least 1/4 of the monthly rental expense. As for food and utilities, like I said, you are caring for three and him only one. There is more math involved in this than just 50/50.
However, at the same time, I do believe you said you two moved in to this place together. $3600 for a family home is quite expensive for a house, especially a rented house sans utilities. If you knew how much he made prior to moving in, why did you decide on such an expensive place? When you first moved in, did you agree to pay the majority of the costs? If so, that was your decision. Attempting to make him pay for a place he couldn’t afford to live in to begin with NOW is a bit harsh.
Before I moved in with my boyfriend, I thought this out. I made a spreadsheet. I logged monthly expenses, his and mine. I logged monthly paychecks, his and mine. I’m an accountant. If you didn’t know, now you do. Checks and balances is what I do best. FYI, your monthly rental payment should not exceed 28% of your gross monthly salary (or his, for that matter). That’s just a recipe for financial disaster.
Jayne says
Yuri, I agree mostly but want to clarify. Her article said 3600 is for rent, utilities AND food. Not just rent in some lavish home. If i read between the lines she is saying when things come up, its on her to pay. Need new blinds/curtains/bedding…anything she has to pay. I also disagree with “she is caring for three and he is caring for one” meaning he should contribute at least 1/4. They are in a relationship as a couple. They together are responsible for the kids as committed adults. Also the kids dont work so they really shouldnt be a part of the monetary equation. We have two adults who should pay 50/50 or they could pay 40/60 based on their salaries worst case. BEST CASE they should be a unit. They should take their combined salaries add it up and that is how much “they” make “together”. Then they should pay out all bills and other things according to their budget as well as determine what the workload around the house is and determine who will do what around the house. Now with that being said..im in a similar situation and feel the same way she does however i would not even complain at all if he stepped up around the house. It’s not about the money for me its about the contribution to the family…step up and do more so I dont have to be stressed about paying everything, managing all the kids sports and school breaks, and all the unexpected issues INCLUDING paying for his car when it needs repair, and cooking and washing the dishes and working site jobs and taking care of the baby we have together. At some point you think what is the point? I could be single and do all of this myself. BUT if he just stepped up around the house you wouldnt even complain. IJS. wow..that got long…lol
Selena says
I’m surprised this guy can live anywhere for $600 a month total household expenses. Including food??? The girlfriend had to know that though before they rented this house together, so it seems they picked a place based on HER income rather than their income. If she wants to pay less, she will have to be willing to move to a cheaper place.
Very much agree with EMK’s proportional split. Child support is intended to pay towards rent/utilities/food so yes that should be included in the gf’s income portion. She is the one who needs extra space/utilities/food for her two kids to live there, and their father is contributing for that.
Not really fair for her to have two jobs to his one. Does she need two because both of hers are low paying? What would a proportional split look like if she had only one job? Also sounds like he might get a second job to pay his child support/truck payment. Or as Evan suggested, find an alternative to the truck payment (cheaper vehicle) whichever is more practical.
Is she the one who wanted a pricier rental? Sometimes we get caught up in how “we want to live” without considering how that will really work out financially month by month. If he would have preferred a more modest place, she might have to bite the bullet if she wants to stay where they are.
Housework: yes, it should be split 50/50 with the kids taking on some if they are old enough. Good luck with that though. My experience has been more of the person who wants it done, ends up being the person to do it.
I think this situation is salvagable, but the couple is going to have to sit down and come up with a realistic budget both of them can live with. And that will likely mean sacrificing some things – being ruthless when it comes to “wants” vs. “needs”.
LC says
It kinds of sounds like he resents paying child support and that he resents that she receives child support from her ex. He’s actually punishing her in a passive aggressive way.
Leah says
Sounds logical!!! I agree.
TheReelMan says
You’re a fool! You don’t need a new house. You need a new MAN!!!! He’s using you all up and taking advantage of you. Women shouldn’t even HAVE TO work!! He’s poor and has found himself a dummy that’s paying his way. What are you benifitting from sleeping with him?!? NOTHING. You’re working and contributing like a whole should. Tsk tsk tsk
Selena says
@ Yuri #13 Good points.
If the monthly cost of rent/utilities/food for 4 people is $3600 – then the boyfriend’s share would be $900. Part-time work should cover it.
Not really fair to ask him to pay more to subsidize her kids living there when he is paying out for his kids living elsewhere.
Peter 51, 61 was non standard. says
I have always worked on the basis of separate banks accounts with a jiont account for the house. All income is paid into the joint account and then the surplus is split into the personal accounts in proportion to orginal income, as per Evan’s arrangements. Half each is for temporary flatmates not permanent couples. If the higher earner says half, that might be an indicator of short term intentions.
Jane says
Your advice as to managing finance for couples is wise! I had similiar idea to yours, but yours is better and more feasible, which is really enlightened.
starthrower68 says
If she can afford it, she should seriously consider going back to separate residences. If he’s wonderful, he will continue to bring her flowers, and she doesn’t have to be stressed out by what he’s not contributing, monetary or otherwise. She sees what she will have if she wants this guy for a husband. I posit that she accept what is, without complaining or she sets up her own residence and does not look to him as marriage material.
Emerald Green says
In my life experience, resentment is a seed that takes root and grows. As a woman who has dealt with resentment over what I knew were unfair financial issues in a relationship; I can’t say that once it began to grow that I was ever successful uprooting it.
Finances play a big part in relationships. I agree with you that if possible, it would be wise for her to go back to maintaining her own home. The boyfriend can visit and bring flowers. Chances are that she will meet another very nice loving man who is capable of meeting her half way if not further.
Jayne says
spot on!
Sherri says
I agree!
Androgynous says
The big elephant in the room here is the children from her previous relationship. I do think that is a big contributor of Lisa’s issues with her partner. Like Evan said, finances can be negotiated between a loving couple, but it all gets very complicated when there are children from other relationships. I suspect that Lisa’s man feels that whatever he does to contribute to the household, whether by taking a second job or doing household chores, he is doing it for someone else’s children.
The fact is that a LOT of men feel that way, rightly or wrongly. That is just the way it is. I’d bet a lot of women are not prepared to maintain a household for another woman’s children either – maybe for the occassional weekend visits, but everyday is a bit of an ask.
Katie says
Evan, do you know what might be super cool for you and your readers?! (It would be cool and eye opening for every couple to do, but I bet you and Mrs K are in a position where you actually COULD!) To swap roles for a fortnight and see if it makes you appreciate each other more, whether their role is as good/bad as you imagine and so forth. I always think (and I think there has been a UK TV programme along similar lines) that if a man and women are starting to get resentful of each other, swapping roles can be a useful tool
I know you and Mrs K are not resentful, as you clearly say, but you could run it as an experiment to recommend to other clients if it works! Mrs K could spend a couple of weeks writing articles for this blog and giving some of your clients an exclusive relationship coach’s wife advice deal! And you could try out daddy and baby classes, the gym and lots of cooking and housework! What do you think?! It would take some planning, but I bet you could, and it would be nice to hear from Mrs K again – I have read that post you asked her to do for this blog more than once (though obviously yours are still the best… :p )!
Thank you for all your wonderful work which helps no end your poorer followers who could never hope to afford you by the hour! We love you xxx
Evan Marc Katz says
@Katie –
Appreciate your idea, but can’t run with it. It’s super cool for you, in the way that “reality TV” with its put-on premises is super cool. Not so much for us. To quickly respond, point by point:
“To swap roles for a fortnight and see if it makes you appreciate each other more.” We literally could NOT appreciate each other any more. That’s the strength of our relationship.
I always think (and I think there has been a UK TV programme along similar lines) that if a man and women are starting to get resentful of each other, swapping roles can be a useful tool. Probably. But that would presume that we were starting to get resentful of each other. We’re not. By point of comparison, it would be like telling an investment banker that he should try working in a factory for two weeks. Just to, you know, appreciate how good he has it. Dude doesn’t have to work in a factory to know he has it good. He CHOSE his vocation. I chose my life. My wife chose hers. We’re both really happy with our choices.
You could try out daddy and baby classes, the gym and lots of cooking and housework! Yes, this is called “weekends” in the Katz household. They are far harder than my weekdays, when I only have to produce new content three times a week, coach hundreds of smart, strong, successful women from around the world, and get yelled at by total strangers on my blog, Facebook page, and Twitter feed.
Some people are cool with being stay-at-home moms. My wife is, after 16 years at the same job. I would not be. I don’t think I need to walk a mile in her shoes to really understand that. But if you’re with a man who is unappreciative of you as a wife and mother, I highly recommend that you go away for one day to visit your best friend in another state. He will very quickly realize how hard your job is – and back off of his criticism of you.
Mrs Happy says
To Evan at #20:
yes and when the stay-at-home mother goes away to visit someone, do NOT pre-cook dinner or do extra laundry or shopping or get another mother to ferry the kids around “so he won’t have to”, because then he never knows all the work that is required.
And go for half a week or longer. One day isn’t enough to let the mess pile up, and run out of milk and clean kids’ clothes, and learn to plan school lunches, and defrost meat for dinner, and…
Leslie Davis says
I came to this website for answers because I was in a similar situation and just recently booted him we still had a $300 utility bill that he should be personally responsible for but he’s not he says he doesn’t have the money for it. Being a smart woman I’ve learned over the years that you have to be self-sufficient and can’t really depend on anybody else to do anything for you our society has gone on way too long with this messed-up belief that somehow everything should be 50/50 y’all have made this man be able to pick up her children and he is not even done this for her if you reread her paragraph he’s paying the third of the bills because he feels that with her children there she should be responsible for more what happens when her children leave will he then pay half when does a woman finally say enough is enough before she lets go of a freeloader user and abuser who happens to be the best man that she’s ever met maybe so but he’s standing in the way of a better one that you have yet to met. Move out and leave him with 100%. Single mothers should be able to save as well so some of you math logic here just doesnt matter because his money is going into his asset, his truck. Which ag in no where did she says he uses it to pick them up. Boot him or go . mothers please raise your boys better. Sloth like ways are spoken in the bible for a reason. As is why they say money is also the root to all evil. Women unite take back our freedom by declaring no more freebies. We dont owe them especially if they arent giving it.
Anthea says
The fact is that a LOT of men feel that way, rightly or wrongly. That is just the way it is. I’d bet a lot of women are not prepared to maintain a household for another woman’s children either — maybe for the occassional weekend visits, but everyday is a bit of an ask.
@19…Im currently engaged to a wonderful man with two teenage children 14 and 19 living with me on my farm FT 24/7…Bio mum dosent want them…not even for an overnight stay! I pay for everything as my fiance is facing property court proceeding, family court for custody and a massive accountants and tax bill all mixed into one big debt…
I told him…Ive got your back…we are in this together. I am essentially supporting him and HIS children. Bio mum pays nothing. Your partners attitude worries me when effectively his contribution wouldn’t even feed him, and he has said he wont pay anymore? You are supporting another child and Im not sensing there’s a committed partnership here.
Henriette says
No way should he have to pay 50%, considering that she has children living with her. However, he’s currently only paying 1/6th of the total while doing next to no housework and that is ridiculous. Have a gentle talk with him and explain that he needs to help more around the home and/or increase the amount of money he puts in to the monthly kitty.
Gabri'el says
I agree with Evan 100%, it’s more about the fact that he doesn’t do anything about the house, than it is about the money, he has a lazy and selfish character when it comes to helping out around the house and being a responsible adult around children.
But my comment is for the people condemning him for his financial attitude. My older brother is in a similar situation so maybe I can help a lot of the readers understand where her boyfriend “MAYBE” coming from emotionally and mentally. The boyfriend was living a bachelors life, because it seems to me that he doesn’t have custody of his child, which was why he could live in just one room; my brother also has no children of his own, but his much older girlfriend does. So to help her out with her 4 kids, he traded in his 2 seater for a van, which cost more gas than his sports car; he moved out of my parent’s house and instead of renting an apartment, he rented a house, because they need the extra room, and it’s her kids who mess-up the house (as children will naturally do), and of course 4 children will eat a lot.
I’m not sure of the age of the original letter writers children, but I’m thinking that when he makes comments about not helping cook, clean, or pay rent, it is because he see’s her kids as being the reason for a messy house, lots of dishes needing to be washed, and them having to get that expensive house. Again, I’m agreeing with Evan, I’m just giving a possible reason from what I have seen personally. I think her true problem is that she doesn’t know what the definition of a “wonderful nice guy” is, because it seems to me like this guy is just NOT ready to be a boyfriend to a woman with children, which may be why the letter writer only spoke of him paying child support and not of him having his child come to stay on the weekends
Gina says
Sounds like the boyfriend has got a sweet deal: Someone to work two jobs, pay most of the bills, do most of the housework, and have sex with him when he wants? Heck! For that kind of arrangement I’d be a sweetie, treat you like gold, and bring flowers too! My late mother use to say, “The way that you start out in a relationship is the way things will stay unless YOU decide to take the necessary steps to change it.”
If he’s not willing to compromise, then either stay with him on his terms, or move out, get an affordable place for you and your kids, and simply let Mr. Wonderful court you.
sk says
Couldn’t agree more!
Kiki says
I can not imagine that this conversation will go well, whichever way the lady words it. I read here that Evan constantly gives advice to women not to judge men by their wealth, earning ability etc., but by how they treat their women. While this sounds both logical and fair, I have not seen in real life, a happy long-term couple where the woman has significantly greater earning power than the man. Here I am disregarding the Madonas, and talking about ordinary people. A big difference in earning power usually comes together with a big difference in ambition, drive and competitiveness. These are masculine qualities, and it works really well when the man has them, but not the other way around.
In the short run, especially when being in love, women would disregard these differences, at their own peril. Then, when the smoke settles, and they realize that they have ended up with an underachiever, resentment will keep building up.
Men in those circumstances think – well – she knew what kind of a guy I am, and she wanted me at the beginning, but not any more. Women think – if only he would try a bit harder for me…
I am very pessimistic about the possibility to solve this imbalance through conversation, if at all.
Camavery says
Awesome comment
Chelle says
Kiki- You hit the nail on the head, it’s highly unlikely that this conversation will go well at all. One other commenter stated that the “issue” is the other mans children, not how much money he can realistically contribute to the household.
If he gave a damn, he would cut the truck loose and pick-up a 2nd job to make a difference in the imbalance of household expenses. She’s only asking for rent, utilities and food.
@evanmarckatz – Thoughts? She’s probably used to living a lifestyle significantly higher than his for sure. He should have addressed his concerns with allowing her to leverage the payments to $3000+ a month before diving into those figures before moving in, as he clearly knew he could only contribute $600/month.
Would we be having the same conversation if expenses were around $2000/month or less probably not. She feels like he’s taking advantage of her and in some ways he is by allowing her to almost fully finance their lifestyle instead of minimizing expenses because he knows he can’t afford the life they are currently living.
This problem falls on her lap.
josavant says
OK, I’ll be the first to say it: this man is a leech. He’s worked it out so he has to pay only $600/mo for a fine residence, home-cooked meals, someone to clean after him, and someone he can have sex with on a regular basis – while the woman pays $3000 a month? How can he possibly be OK with that unless he is a leech.
The OP says he’s “nice.” big whoop. Anyone can be nice, it doesn’t cost a thing. Anyone can especially be nice to someone they’re taking advantage of on a grand scale like this guy is doing.
OP, here is my suggestion. Kick this leech out of your house and out of your life. Replace him with a roommate and charge him or her $1000/mo. You get an extra $400/mo, and you don’t have to clean and cook for your new roomie. it can’t get better than that.
ShivaD says
Lol I so agree with everything you said
Frimmel says
First off you need to find a cheaper living arrangement and cut down somewhere on expenses. $3600 a month seems kind of crazy to me without knowing the area of course.
Anyone telling this guy to make more money should bear in mind that anything more he makes is going to lead to an increase in his child support. So you might look at that as part of the reason for being unmotivated to work more at paid employment. Particularly when the part that doesn’t go to the ex will be expected to go to supporting another man’s children. (It seems likely the expensive housing is partially to get her kids in a good school.)
As to not doing house work. I suggest it is part of the alpha attitude that made him attractive to her in the first place. Doing more of the chores will likely make her lose even more respect for him and since it likely means more care for another man’s kids. Well, we can see the lack of motivation once again.
Seems pretty standard woman trying to change a man stuff.
If we further consider that this guy has already been through the ringer he’s probably not ready to get hit by a truck again by getting in too deep here. He probably did the good beta provider thing and it still landed him renting a room and not seeing his kids (guessing on that.) The whole situation is probably just a big ugly reminder of what he lost in the first place. He just doesn’t know how to cut the cord on the mindset that got him into the mess.
If we take the attitude Cory expressed in #12 and consider the LW’s man probably bought into that hook line and sinker (I take the regular flowers as evidence of at least a small chivalry streak and “blue pill” thinking) only to still end up divorced and expected to get more work in order to help raise another man’s kids because he doesn’t have any money left from supporting the kids he doesn’t see?
I think she’d be doing him a favor to break up with him.
AMarie says
A portion of any increase in income will go to his OWN child- THAT is a good reason for him to be unmotivated? Gross.
Dorielle says
I do so cynically coubt that a man refrains from pulling his weight around the home in order to not lose respect !!
Dawn says
it’s a little late, but my first thought on reading this was “didn’t you guys talk about expenses before you moved in together???”
Goldie says
I feel so idealistic reading this thread. The silly idealistic me assumed that the man had agreed to move in with the LW and her kids. That he had accepted them at least in some capacity, otherwise he wouldn’t have agreed to move in? I mean, I see a lot of comments there referring to her kids, the way he supposedly sees them, as if they were a tumor on her body, a DUI or a police record that’s not allowing her to drive and jacks up her insurance premiums, or any other kind of major inconvenience, that he really cannot stand, but has to put up with. “Another man’s kids” really? These are the children of a woman he loves. They also are the two people that he has knowingly agreed to move in with. I am not saying that he should buy them new cars and send them to Ivy League schools on his dime, but assuming that he doesn’t want to cook because the food will just be eaten by another man’s kids, so why bother… God, if it’s really that bad, I say break up then!
I guess I just can’t relate. Granted, I haven’t had to live together with a SO’s kids, yet. With my recent bf, his kids were grown and out of the house and I only saw them on occasion. But I miss them, and honestly consider it one of the worst downsides of our breakup, that I will never see them again. Never did it occur to me to think of them as, “another woman’s kids”.
As for the finance breakdown, here’s my two cents. For ten years, my ex-husband and I kept a spreadsheet where we added up all family-related expenses and split all those down the middle. Meaning, if I wanted to buy myself a new pair of shoes, or if he wanted a new set of fishing equipment, the other person would not have to pay half of that. But things like mortgage, utilities, family dog, family electronics, furniture, food for the family, those were the expenses that we divided in two. Any new expense was up for discussion – if I wrote something down as a family expense, and my husband thought it was something that only benefited myself, and that he shouldn’t pay half of it, he could always say so and explain why. We’d discuss and come to a decision that worked for both of us. Maybe LW and her bf can do the same. They can leave the kids’ clothes, school supplies and related expenses out of the spreadsheet, and only include those expenses that benefit both her and the BF. Then split them 50-50, 70-30, or any way they’d like. I actually wouldn’t want a bf to pay for anything at all that is meant strictly for my children, because then he’d get to call the shots on how I raise my kids and what I do for them. He’d then get the right to say things like “your son doesn’t need braces” and I want that to be my decision, not his.
Also, agree with everyone else, $3600/month is pretty steep for what the LW says is a small house, unless they live in an area with very expensive real estate. Maybe they can find a way to cut down on the expenses a bit.
Selena says
@ Goldie
LW says the $3600 is for rent/utilities/food only. Those expenses obviously benefit not only the couple, but the kids as well. The LW doesn’t like the split they have now. Can’t say as I blame her, but she has to support her kids whether he lives there or not. He’s supporting his own through child support payments.
She said he wouldn’t give her more than a third (even if he had it) and she is apparently resentful of that? Why should he have to support her kids (by paying more in rent/utilities/food) ? She’s not helping to support his.
It kinda sounds to me like she wants him to pay 50%, (as if he were her kids father living with them) but that’s not really fair to him. Especially since it appears a considerable amount of his income is already going for child support as it is.
Ruby says
The OP wrote: “With his child support, truck payment, etc…. it leaves him only $600 to contribute to the household. That leaves me to contribute the rest, which is about $3000. That is just rent, food, utilities”
The $3600 isn’t just rent, it also includes food and utilities. If the rent is around $2000/month (easy in a decent neighborhood in a large urban area), that leaves $1600 for food and utilities. The food bill could be around $600/month or more for two (hard to divide that when there are her two children in the mix, not to mention food for his kids if they are visiting dad). That leaves $1000/month for utilities, which may not be all that high if you are including heat, phone, electricity, cable, water.
Frimmel #28 rote:, “I suggest it is part of the alpha attitude that made him attractive to her in the first place. Doing more of the chores will likely make her lose even more respect for him and since it likely means more care for another man’s kids. Well, we can see the lack of motivation once again.”
This man doesn’t sound alpha at all. No, she wants him to do his share around the house. She’s losing respect for him because he doesn’t do anything. She writes that he is “trying to find some extra jobs on the side, but not very hard.” Doesn’t sound like a driven, alpha-type to me.
In my estimation, this woman doesn’t have 2 jobs, she has 3 – managing the entire household being the third one. Do people still believe that managing a household with 2 adults and 2 children is not a full-time job?
Ruby says
Also, the food bill may be a lot higher if the OP doesn’t have much time to cook and they are eating out a lot. And we don’t know how much child support she actually gets, or if they have other expenses like health insurance or mediical bills.
Goldie says
Guys I know that $3600 is food, rent and utilities all together. It’s still high in my opinion. Sorry I should’ve been more detailed in my comment.
Goldie says
Have to add this in response to Selena:
“Why should he have to support her kids (by paying more in rent/utilities/food) ? She’s not helping to support his.”
Actually, if he couldn’t live alone on $600/month, this means she is indirectly helping him support his. The fact that he lives partially on her money, is what allows him to give his money to his children. So yeah, she’s helping. Not that I see anything wrong with it, I am a big believer in working as a team and helping each other out.
Marie says
This guy is already splitting a lot of hairs, even including allocating future money he doesn’t yet have or wants to earn, saying he wouldn’t pay anyways. No matter how “nice” he is, doesn’t sound like he’s ready for the responsibility of seriously dating a woman with kids. Too many disclaimers he’s putting out there. I’d have a serious discussion with him about the breakdown of the chores and finances and if he continues to make excuses he’s probably not a good match for you.
Frimmel says
Ruby in #32 re: Alpha
Alpha isn’t just entrepreneurial go getter stuff. “I don’t do dishes” is alpha because it is a cocky, I’m too important to do the dishes thing. Women like guys who they perceive to have higher status. Women also want to tame the bad boy. Yeah, yeah, NAWALT.
An attitude of the housework being beneath him will be attractive to many women both as a status perception and as a tame the bad boy challenge. Hence Alpha. As soon as he caves and does the dishes he’s lost both his higher status and bad boy to tame allure. (Hypothetically of course, as I’m not privy to all the details.)
To get away from “game” talk. To me they seem to me to want the life they had before splitting with their children’s other parent but unwilling to face the reality that they can’t. Neither of these people took a hard look at why their prior relationships went wrong and appear to be repeating many of those habits and mistakes.
I suspect that no amount of doing the chores will correct this because chipping in with the housework isn’t the real problem.
Goldie says
#37: “An attitude of the housework being beneath him will be attractive to many women”
WOW. I truly learn something new every day. There’s nothing that irritates me so much, and so fast, as the sight of a man, who is supposed to be my partner, sitting on his arse and taking it easy while I work around the house to feed and clothe him, a grown man. Am I the only woman who feels that way? Can’t be, since someone on this thread has already compared this situation to feeling like you have one more child on your hands. Which is exactly how this makes me feel. Pretty far from seeing that man as an Alpha, no?
Selena says
@Goldie
Most of the commenters also think it’s high – and part of the reason their split looks so one sided.
I wonder what her monthly rent/utility/food bill was prior to them getting a place together. Between her 2 jobs and her CS was she affording something similar? Or did she think with another income (his) would enable them to rent in a better neighborhood?
She writes: Even if he made more money he says he won’t pay half because, in all fairness, I get child support and he shouldn’t have to pay half. He says he will pay a third. I can’t help feeling he is treating me like a roommate and not his woman. If he is a real man shouldn’t he want to work together to build a life?
I see this as her definition of a “real man” is one who pays the bills for her AND her kids. Despite her getting child support from their father. And I can see why he wouldn’t want to do that on top of supporting his own kids.
Selena says
@Goldie #35
Apparently he was able to support himself on $600 a month when he was renting a room before they moved in together. Now, yeah, it looks like she is carrying him for an extra $300. Which is why *I* think he needs to get another source of income, or they both need to make sacrifices for a more realistic budget.
Selena says
My guess is that she would like him to do more around the house, but the real problem is his small contribution towards expenses compared to hers. Even if he did ALL the cleaning and most of the cooking she wouldn’t see him as a “real man” without the $$$.
Frimmel says
Goldie in number 38
You’re making a mistake that many of the people trying to understand “game” make. Not doing the dishes isn’t the thing or the game or the key to this. It is the attitude about not doing the dishes. Omegas break the rules because they are inadequate, alphas break the rules because the rules are his bitch.
So on the one hand you could be right this is not alpha, the guy isn’t cleaning up because he’s inadequate i.e. not paying enough of the bills. And oh look now she’s not interested.
But I also bet he never did dishes or cleaned up when he was just visiting either and she let him move in.
Peter 51 says
About two years ago, I employed a “recovering” heroin addict under a government sponsored Back to Work scheme. In the UK , addicts are treated as ill and receive disability benefit (about minimum wage). As part of his back to work incentive, he was paid an ‘average’ wage of £24,000 a year, about twice minimum and by no means average outside London. Where we live, the median is about 16,000. His exit from heroin and his return to employed status greatly distressed his girlfriend. She obviously felt very insecure that he now had options. Her work as a nursery nurse did not pay well but she controlled their households (dual because the social security system penalizes living together and especially marriage – which they wanted but couldn’t afford the drop in benefits).
Perhaps this situation is similar. This is a man who is, by virtue of his looks and social connections, desirable. While he is poor and domestically dependent, the OP (what does that stand for?) is in control of a desirable man. If he actually achieved enough income and domestic skill to be a real contributor, she could lose him. He meanwhile can live off his charm and looks. Leader of the male hunting group he ain’t but they don’t get the girls anyway. Too dominant.
BTW, with 8 weeks to go to the end of his work practice, I set him up with a small sales business for one of my clients. He preferred to relapse into heroin. It paid better; involved no work and his girlfriend preferred it to losing his company and having him stressed by work.
Paula says
I think I agree with those saying he should be paying 1/4. If she is getting child support, that money is money covering the rent for the children. She then is working to pay for herself. Now I’m not sure if the child support is enough to cover the living expenses.
I think the advice by Evan was good but I think in this case, this guy is a bit of a mooch. He should be paying $900. I think though they need to downsize as this seems too expensive. He’d be better off living on his own if he had to pay $900. I had a 1 bedroom in Toronto for $750.
Karl T says
I haven’t had to comment in this section because I actually agree 100% with Selena. Matter of fact, I would have used some identical sentences. Maybe the guy is guilty of being lazy with household chores, but I agree 100% with exactly what Selena says regarding payment.
JoeSavant, the guy sounds like a leech to you? The woman sounds like a leech to me. Why would she want him to pay 50% to cover her kids when the guy is dishing out money for his own kids and she is receiving money for her kids.
Chance says
Ruby said (#1):
“In this day and age, the “nicest, most wonderful man” should be able to lift a finger around the house once in awhile. The woman works two jobs, takes care of two kids, and this nice guy expects his girlfriend to do all the cooking and housework too?”
Goldie said (#4):
“Why is he not pulling his weight around the house, especially if he only works one job and you work two?”
She said that he doesn’t cook or clean, and you two (along with many others, to be fair) jumped to the conclusion that he doesn’t do any work around the house. There are many things that need to be done around the household that don’t involve cooking or cleaning: yardwork, working on the cars/keeping them maintained, building/repairing things, running errands, etc. We simply don’t have enough information regarding their situation to make an informed judgment call on who does how much around the household. Also, we don’t know how many hours each of them are working. For example, she could be working two 20-hour/week jobs, and he could be working one 60-hour/week job for all we know. If they were working equal hours, and he did much less around the household, then yes, that would be unfair. However, we just don’t really know.
Goldie said (#4):
“What is that supposed to mean? You get child support because you have children under 18 living with you, who probably cost you a lot more than you ever get in child support. It’s not just some free money that you receive for no reason. He should pay proportionally to what you both have, and not worry about where your money came from. How is that “in all fairness”? There’s nothing fair about this statement of his. It sounds to me like this man, nice as he is, is not pulling his weight around the house. This is why you feel resentful, not because he has less money. I suggest you two sit down and talk about how he can contribute more in non-monetary ways (since he really and truly doesn’t have the money).”
It means that she has money coming from another household to help support her (their) household, and he has money coming out of his (their) household to pay for another person’s household. We have no idea how much money is coming or leaving because it’s not disclosed, but it could very well be a wash, or she could be getting a lot more. Who knows? If you add back what he has to pay in child support to his income, or (not and) subtract what she receives from the $3,000 in expenses, the situation could very well be much more fair (depending on the amounts). Again, we just don’t know.
Goldie said (#9):
“But, if it is that big of a deal to him, then he could’ve said, when they were discussing finances prior to moving in together, Honey you spend X dollars a month on your children. I’m not their dad and I don’t want any part of these expenses. Let’s divvy up the rest, but your kids are your responsibility. He could even go into details and split up the electric bill, gas bill, water bill… What I’m saying is, he should’ve said what was on his mind before they moved in together. Then she would’ve had a choice to decide NOT to move in together, because of what he said. But no, he’s surprising her with this stuff now, when she cannot back out.”
How do you know that he didn’t say those things before they moved in? The letter doesn’t speak to that. How do you know he’s “surprising” her with this stuff now? The letter doesn’t speak to that either. For all we know, she could have agreed to a similar arrangement as the one you described, and she is now feeling resentful about it anyway.
Goldie said (#30):
“The silly idealistic me assumed that the man had agreed to move in with the LW and her kids. That he had accepted them at least in some capacity, otherwise he wouldn’t have agreed to move in? “
Here’s one thing you’re right about. You did assume. In fact, you’ve done a whole lot of assuming on this thread.
Selena said (#31):
“It kinda sounds to me like she wants him to pay 50%, (as if he were her kids father living with them) but that’s not really fair to him. Especially since it appears a considerable amount of his income is already going for child support as it is.”
Spot on.
Julia says
@Frimmel
You’re making a mistake that many of the people trying to understand “game” make. Not doing the dishes isn’t the thing or the game or the key to this. It is the attitude about not doing the dishes. Omegas break the rules because they are inadequate, alphas break the rules because the rules are his bitch.
yawn. Game? Seriously, if I ever met a man who spoke this way I would laugh at him. Jesus Christ.
And for the record, a man who doesn’t offer to help looks like a douche, not like a man to be tamed. I am looking for a fully developed adult male, not some puppy.
Ruby says
Chance
“There are many things that need to be done around the household that don’t involve cooking or cleaning: yardwork, working on the cars/keeping them maintained, building/repairing things, running errands, etc. ”
I know, cooking and cleaning is women’s work, and men should only have to work in the yard and build or repair things. First off, I would consider “yardwork” part of “cleaning”. Lisa doesn’t mention her boyfriend being much of a handyman. If they rent the house, I’m not sure that they have to take on their own home repairs. Nice try, though.
marymary says
cooking is not a woman’s job or we’d have starved!
Clare says
Frimmel #37
“Alpha isn’t just entrepreneurial go getter stuff. “I don’t do dishes” is alpha because it is a cocky, I’m too important to do the dishes thing. Women like guys who they perceive to have higher status. Women also want to tame the bad boy. Yeah, yeah, NAWALT.
An attitude of the housework being beneath him will be attractive to many women both as a status perception and as a tame the bad boy challenge. Hence Alpha. As soon as he caves and does the dishes he’s lost both his higher status and bad boy to tame allure. (Hypothetically of course, as I’m not privy to all the details.)”
Oh my goodness, I’ve never heard of anything so silly. That’s ridiculous! That’s not a man, that is a little boy 🙂
Selena says
Goldie #9: What I’m saying is, he should’ve said what was on his mind before they moved in together. Then she would’ve had a choice to decide NOT to move in together, because of what he said. But no, he’s surprising her with this stuff now, when she cannot back out.
Chance #46: How do you know he’s “surprising” her with this stuff now? The letter doesn’t speak to that either. For all we know, she could have agreed to a similar arrangement as the one you described, and she is now feeling resentful about it anyway.
This couple has been together for 2 years. She knew he was renting a room prior to them living together while she was renting a small house. It seems unlikely she wouldn’t know about his child support, his truck payment, and how little he actually had to put toward household expenses. I don’t believe she was ‘surprised’. She knew how much money they both had to work with.
I do think he may have lead her to believe he would be bringing in extra money through side jobs though, and according to her, he hasn’t looked very hard to find those. THIS may be part of the reason she is starting to resent him. She believed he would be contributing more than $600, but after 4 mos. he doesn’t seem super motivated to do that.
But since she also resents the idea that he is only willing to pay up to a third of the expenses…one wonders how much of a discussion they actually did have before they went house hunting. He may be equally surprised by her expectations as she is with his.
Nicole W says
Sorry, he has to go! She is working TWO jobs in order to keep the house going, and he refuses to do the same. It doesn’t matter whose kids live with them. If they are going to have a life together as a couple, they are both responsible for the care of ALL the kids (his too). I would take all the monthly obligations and divide them in half. If he can’t pay half, Adios! This is why I won’t date a man that makes significantly less than me. It is very likely you will end up feeling resentful if you have to take care of someone else. If you are earning 100K +, it’s probably not so difficult to do that. But when you are struggling, the resentment builds up pretty fast.
Chance says
@Ruby
“I know, cooking and cleaning is women’s work, and men should only have to work in the yard and build or repair things.”
You said that. Not me. More conjecture on your part.
“First off, I would consider “yardwork” part of “cleaning”.”
Interesting. I suppose that’s possible. I guess when my mom would ask me to help clean and mow the lawn when I was a kid, she was being repetitive.
“Lisa doesn’t mention her boyfriend being much of a handyman.”
You’re right, she didn’t. Actually, she didn’t mention a lot of things, but that didn’t stop you from making assumptions.
“If they rent the house, I’m not sure that they have to take on their own home repairs. Nice try, though.”
Now that’s a good point. However, there are repairs, heavy lifting, and such to be done around the house that don’t involve making repairs to the house. Not trying to split hairs, my point is we simply don’t have all the facts.
Julia says
@Chance
Now that’s a good point. However, there are repairs, heavy lifting, and such to be done around the house that don’t involve making repairs to the house.
Hmm, way to be obtuse. I am both a woman and a person who rents a house. I can go like months without having to lift something heavy, basically until I move and then I pay someone to do it for me. But nice try. There is also a possibility that there is no yard, some people don’t live in places where there are yards so for the sake of argument, when she says cleaning she means the inside of the house that everyone needs to clean on a very regular basis. Not just dishes, mopping, vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom, cleaning the kitchen, dusting, polishing, etc.
Marie says
How often per week does the average household need cooking and cleaning vs yardwork, car care, and handy repair around the house? Depends on the couple but I would say on average for us anyways I cook and clean daily or almost everyday, twice a day on weekends whereas more “manly” work is weekly or monthly at best. Admittedly we don’t have an old car, much of a yard, or things breaking down all the time but I suspect most people have to cook and clean more often too. Even though my fiance is a saint compared to a lot of men and helps out, I still do at least 60-70% on top of a very demanding job. I’m not even sure he knows exactly how much I have to do to keep the household running. As cited on this blog women still do the majority of housework even today. This is not to take anything away from the more intangible emotional contributions that a man makes to the relationship but regarding sheer housework women do more. And this is not including childcare. I wish more men would just acknowledge this because it would make us feel more appreciated (while doing the work). The two major predictors of long term relationship success as Evan is fond of quoting is how much the man is sensitive to the woman’s moods and helps out with the housework and childcare. Notice the quote is not the other way around.
Goldie says
If he didn’t cook and clean, but busted his butt working around the house otherwise, we would’ve probably heard of it, no? She wouldn’t be as resentful then?
@Frimmel #42, any man who tries to play games, or “the game”, while living with me and running a household together, would be drop-kicked out of the house along with his things, because this is unacceptable. Either he acts like the partner that he is, or he’s free to get out of my house and go act like a teenage girl with someone else. Sorry, although I’m very easy to get along with, I have zero tolerance for power games and passive-aggressive manipulation, especially when they’re coming from a grown man.
I didn’t, however, get the impression that OP’s boyfriend is playing games and trying to assert his role in the pack. Sounds to me like he’s just going with the flow and doing what feels good to him.
There’s one thing about the letter & thread I’m still confused about. Everyone on here seems to assume that, before moving in with OP, the bf lived on $600/month. I’d say a guy needs maybe $200/month to eat, another $100-$150 for his share of utilities, gas, clothes, etc. Which would’ve left him with $250-300/month for rent. How can it be that, in the same metro area, one can rent a room in a house for $250-300, but a small house would be $2K? Something does not add up here. Either he lived on more than $600 before and has taken up new expenses now (bought the truck??) Or I don’t even know what’s going on here.
marymary says
When I was breaking up with my cohabiting boyfriend sometime in the last century I took a list to the lawyer, detailing what we’d each spent on the house. He looked at it and said “people in love don’t do this.”
No kidding sherlock.
Ruby says
Chance #53
Come to think of it, tenants don’t typically do their own yardwork either. So that leaves small appliance repairs and heavy lifting. I don’t know about you, but I cook and clean on a daily basis. Small appliance repairs and heavy lifting (so heavy that I’d need a guy to do it for me), almost never.
Goldie #56
<How can it be that, in the same metro area, one can rent a room in a house for $250-300, but a small house would be $2K?>
It does seem low to me too, but in a large metro area, his room could have been in a bad neighborhood with cheap rents, while their house is in a much nicer one with better schools. But yeah, maybe the truck payment is new.
starthrower68 says
I always find it fascinating how people get together with other people who have kids, then resent the burden of the kids. If you don’t want to deal with someone else’s kids financially, personally, or otherwise don’t pick someone with kids. You know going in there are children involved; they don’t just pop up out of the Lorna Doone box as some surprise your bf or gf sprung on you once you got together.
marymary says
starthrower
People think they can deal with it, then when it comes down to it (no more lazy weekends, constantly having to buy and preare food -kids seem to eat all the time -, the mess, the noise, the change to your sleep patterns, your holidays), the expense. they realise it’s a lot. Oftentimes they just don’t realise how exhausting children are, even the angelic ones, which most children aren’t. You think about them all the time. Are they hungry, bored, tired? Are they going to fall in the river? Where are they? What are they doing?
And I like children.
On the plus side, you do have less time to think about the meaning of life. You just get on with it.
josavant says
59 starthrower, to be fair to the OP’s guy, he may not be resentful of her kids. He just says he shouldn’t pay for the part of the household that is their cost. That’s reasonable. But, he should find a way that he can pay for a third of the rent like he said he would (might mean finding another job) and should also cook and clean at least an equal share while he’s contributing much less.
60 marymary, I’d rather think about the meaning of life than worry about kids falling into a river. Even if you don’t have kids, there isn’t much time to think about the meaning of life. Depends how busy one is I guess.
Goldie says
Starthrower 59, this is exactly what I’ve been saying on here, and people seem to react like I have three heads 🙂
Then again I agree with marymary #60: even people who have already had the experience, cannot think in advance of all the possible ramifications. My ex bf, prior to meeting me, had had both 50% custody of his own kids, and a blended family where he lived with a woman and her kids. You’d think he’d be prepared for anything, but we still ran into issues. He wanted a lot of 1:1 quality time on weekends. Well my then 16yo son also happened to want to spend some time with me on weekends. But I cannot clone myself, or be in two places at once. I was running ragged trying to give them both what they need, and there was still a lot of resentment on both sides, at least until my son got a gf and suddenly wanted me out of the house on Saturday nights. He was actually a little disappointed when bf and I broke up 🙂
Morris says
Reminds me of of the saying, “Men get into a relationship hoping things stay the same. Women get in hoping things will change.”
I’m sure they both share some blame. But I’m also a guy so I tend to think expecting change is more unrealistic compared to expecting things to stay the same.
Lisa says
Wow! That is some interesting comments! I am Lisa and I agree with all of you. To make things more clear, he rented a room in a house for $450/month includes utilities plus his food was about $150. My rent is $1700 and that’s cheap compared to other places. Food is about $1000/ month and utilities about $300. There is no cable, just Internet. We never eat out. Gas for car, cell phone, medical benefits, bus passes, school supplies, seasonal clothing….. It all adds up. His children live in a different province so he never sees them. He chose to leave and sends $1600/month for his 3 kids. He makes $1800 every two weeks and yes, truck payment is recent. He pays a third of rent and utilities which I am fine with. My resentment is the groceries…… He eats more then all of us therefore a third is not enough. He works 8 hour days Monday to Friday. I work every day but only 6 hours. He does yard work and fixes things if needed. I do everything else. I love to take care of him and he gives me a lot of emotional support. It would be nice if he could help more financially with the groceries and also with some cooking and cleaning. it is true he sees that the cooking and cleaning are mostly because of the kids and although he is nice to them, he sees them as not his and he shouldn’t have to cook or clean after them. after he pays his child support and I receive mine, with our income, we each bring in about the same into the house. He has credit cards, truck payments, but I don’t have any so that leaves me paying for most everything. He has debt and it accumulated after we moved in, not before. He has made it clear he will never pay more then a third, his little room was cheap he rented therefore why should he pay more then that. We had a discussion and he has agreed to contribute $900/month now plus buy the meat. That seems fair to me. Thank you for all the great input! It helped me feel I was making the right decision
Nicoleinfl says
Lisa, glad you clarified some things. I still feel your BF is getting off easy with $900. After paying you $900 and his $1600 child support, he still has $1100 left over. Surely he can help a little more so you don’t have to have 2 jobs. I personally would want half the rent. I can’t understand how someone would date someone with kids and not want to help with the support and day to day maintenance of the children. It strikes me being selfish. Anyway, I’m glad you are happy. That’s all that matters.
Zaria says
____________________________________
If all a man would add to my life would be sex and words, then I would not allow him to meet my children.
I would date him away from my family and only if he would take me on dinners, theatres, trips where he would treat me like a princess and where we would laugh a lot. Where he would take me out of my stressing family life reality for a few hours or days.
At least, I would know it is HONESTLY all about having a family free, children free, responsibility free, burdens free, cleaning free, cooking free, educating free, relaxing time for BOTH of us.
THIS would be FAIR enough, if sex alone would be what I want from a man. Which it is not.what I want.
___________________
If I find myself alone in educating my children and in cooking and cleaning the place we all live in, and pay all their and my expenses on my own and with their Dad’s legal contribution, then why do I want a stranger living with us? What does he bring to the plate?
Sex and words?
I can’t have sex with a man who watches me struggling alone in life and does not feel the pull to ease my struggle, who does not feel interested in my children education and well being and who, yet, feeds himself with the warm vital energy my children and I fill our nest with. That would lower my self esteem. And it would give a cheap example to my children of what type of treatment they can accept in their own relationships.
And I would feel suspectfull that he organises a living arrangement with my family where he would pay less or exactly the same than when he lives alone so that he can buy a truck. I don’t want my family to be utilised to save money to buy a truck when he is not supporting us with anything.
I don’t want a man who strategises that living with me won’t cost him a single dime more than living alone and will cost ME more than if I live without him. How am I supposed to feel when he wants the extra cost of living together to be on my back and away from his? Where is the love?
Men who need a roommate for financial reasons and friendship and sex can pass their way. I want a lover, a cherishing partner, a husband, a boy friend, whatever it is called. I don’t want a sexual live-in friend or a business live-in partner. Because I just don’t want it and because it gives such a wrong message to my children.
I would indeed end up feeling resentful.
Resentful against my own choices, though, not against him. He does what is best for him and my job is to do what is best for me. When I accept situations that do not honour my feelings, it is my own responsibility.
Anyway, I would feel resentful, indeed and I would share my feelings and my dream of a loving nurturing nest. You never know, sharing dreams sometimes inspires a man to be part of the dream and sometimes heals him. My dream could heal this man.
If not, I would move back to my type of place that I can afford. It would leave the open space for the next man. I would not let a man inside my family until I meet the man naturally pulled towards supporting me, a man who feels happy to feel me happy.
_______________
xxx
Zaria says
____________________________
Man loves woman => man wants woman happy and not stressed out, not even by her own kids. Man will do everything doable in his immediate surrounding to create a safe, loving nest for his woman.
Example: man sees dirty kitchen after kids stomp out of it. Man picks up and cleans because it is the place he lives in and as a responsible healthy clean citizen, he feels responsible for the place he lives in and because this is the love nest he wants to honour for his female. Man picks up and cleans his beloved sacred nest, happy to make his woman’s life easier and to support her in her mission as a mother. Her burdens are his burdens. They are family.
*
Or else why would I chose him among the millions of men in the world?
*
Woman and man have a meeting with kids from both sides and say:
“this woman and this man are creating their nest with you all in it. This woman and this man are to be respected and obeyed and trusted equally as equally creators and guardians of our new nest, regardless which one is the biological parent or not.
In short, whenever one of us adults tells you to pick up and clean after your snacks in the kitchen, just do it, don’t wait for the biological parent to come home and repeat it to you. The biological parent will not register your complain that his/her partner spoiled your fun.
Man is no cleaning slave to woman and woman is no cleaning slave to man and none of us adults are cleaning slaves to the children.
In this nest, we both hold the parental authority to guide you in cleaning and in how to use the house.”
This way, when woman’s kids stomp out of the kitchen, man has the choice and authority to call them out on it and make them clean their mess, and thus to support his woman in her educating mission, or he can chose to let them go and clean their mess himself, whichever works on the moment. In either case, he honours his manhood by taking responsibility for what is happening in his own love nest. He participates in improving the quality of life of his beloved female.
*
Or else why would I chose him among the millions of men in the world?
*
Sometimes woman comes home tired and hungry and man cooks for her because taking care of her makes him happy. That’s why he wanted to share a house with her in the first place. To take care of her. To pamper her. To feel he is the man of the situation.
He knows she will feel totally at peace when her children sit with them at the table and share the meal. So he cooks enough for the whole family. It feels natural to him, coz they are family.
*
Or else what is the point in sharing my family with him?
*
I don’t want my children to feel like they are a dead heavy weight in their own home, in constant contact with a man who makes them feel they are not his problem, he has nothing to do with them, he wants to wash his hands off them, all he wants is sex with their mother.
I don’t want them to end up feeling worthless. A home is sacred, it is where we are a family and we all feel concerned by each one’s well being and we all participate in making each one feel important and cared for and we all help each other.
*
The man who wants to cook and clean only for himself and to spend money only on himself is allowed to do so in his rented single room. Let him stay there. Why would he even have the privilege to sit at my family’s dinner table when he is adamant in his reminding me and my children we are not his family and he does not want us to become his family.
_________________________________
xxx
Karl T says
The responses still baffle me.
Nicoleinfl #65
How the hell is this guy selfish?? Even the OP says she is fine with him paying 1/3. I totally don’t get the people who think the guy owes half. The OP doesn’t have to contribute a dime towards his kids, why do those of you still feel he needs to cover 50%??? They both have kids to be responsible for, why do you have so much trouble seeing that??? Or do you come from the entitled camp who thinks that men should always take care of everything???
Nicole W says
Zaria #67
Your quote below sums it up really well! He needs to move back to his room or date someone without children.
“The man who wants to cook and clean only for himself and to spend money only on himself is allowed to do so in his rented single room. Let him stay there. Why would he even have the privilege to sit at my family’s dinner table when he is adamant in his reminding me and my children we are not his family and he does not want us to become his family.”
Karl T #68
You’re barking up the wrong tree! I’m a professional woman who makes a very good income. I support myself VERY well! I don’t need a man to support me at all. However, that’s not the case with the other poster. She is working TWO jobs to pay the rent, while her live in barely pays anything. Worse, he doesn’t want to cook or clean up after the kids. That’s selfish. I assume anyone that is in a longterm relationship would want to treat their significant others children as their own. And if you read my prior post, I suggested they take ALL their monthly obligations and share them (that would include his child support payments as well). Nothing unfair about that. You seem to be one of those men that are happy to sit back and let a woman take care of you! Man up!
Francesca says
For me, its less about the money and more about the house work. Or making the work burden less for both of you. When I have lots of work on then my boyfriend does the cooking and cleaning. When I have more money – I pay more.
I am happy with the idea of working more and paying more. What does not sit right with me is the expectation that housework is always women’s work. I think women should start jumping up and down about that too.
Chance says
Karl T is right.
Also, a lot of you are cherry-picking certain info given, while ignoring other info, to support what you want to believe: that this guy is a lazy, cheap, and selfish slob. The problem with this is when it causes some of you to give bad advice that could inspire the OP to approach the situation in a way that sabotages an otherwise (according to the OP) good relationship.
josavant says
67 Zaria- your final para is perfect, I agree with Nicole W. THIS is all about valuing yourself and your loved ones and putting a good heavy boundary into place.
“The man who wants to cook and clean only for himself and to spend money only on himself is allowed to do so in his rented single room. Let him stay there. Why would he even have the privilege to sit at my family’s dinner table when he is adamant in his reminding me and my children we are not his family and he does not want us to become his family.”
“I don’t want my children to feel like they are a dead heavy weight in their own home, in constant contact with a man who makes them feel they are not his problem, he has nothing to do with them, he wants to wash his hands off them, all he wants is sex with their mother.”
Karl T says
Nicole W #69,
I’m not sure if you’re the same person as nicoleinfl, but you both seem to have the same opinion so perhaps you are. In any case, I have no idea why you talk about your self and how you support yourself??? I’m talking about this post, why are we suddenly discussing you??? I don’t care how you dice it, having him contribute 50% and then have her pay to help support his kids or have him pay 33% and she doesn’t have to pay anything towards his kids….it’s the same thing!!!! You say he should pay 50% and she is responsible for helping to pay for his kids, BUT she is NOT paying for his kids. You speak one thing, but your math speaks another. You speak about this situation as if he had no kids and she is the one with 2 kids. This situation IS fair. You seem to have no regard for his responsibilities he has to his kids. Both of them have kids, it’s not a situation where he’s gonna cover hers. She gets child support money, did you conveniently forget that???? Your remarks are way off base. Even the OP doesn’t have an issue with the payment of 33% because she is a logical person. As for the other things, sure he should give her more money for groceries if he’s eating more and switch up chores more, but those were not the main focus of the OP’s original complaint. The main complaint was about the monthly contribution. I find it amazing how the OP has come here and cleared some things up and yet you still cling to chastizing this guy.
Lisa says
There are three incomes coming into the house. The OP, the boyfriend and the father of the children therefore 1/3 is fair. The boyfriend comes home from work at 5 and the OP at 3. She might as well make supper right? the kids are in juniour high so they take care of themselves for the most part. He is nice to them and if they need help he will help them. I am not concerned about the kids. They have their dad and being already 13 they don’t need another. The boyfriend never complains and never expects anything. I have to cook supper anyway so why not one more? It is odd that he does no housework at all but because the kids are older, there really is not much housework to do. He has since got a better job and works 12 hour shifts 6 days a week. I work every day but only 5 or 6 hours a day. Since writing the letter things have changed a little. He still pays only a third, he doesn’t lift a finger with housework or laundry or clooking but he works long hours and on his day off he should relax I think. if I don’t have time to make lunches or supper, he never complains, he will just eat out or make an egg and toast. He never criticizes my kids or tries to discipline them, which I appreciate! He isn’t a “family” type but I guess that is why he chooses to send money instead of seeing his own kids. He is going to contribute more towards groceries and that was may biggest issue so problem solved. Great comments though! Thank you everyone!
Henriette says
@Lisa 74 – Thanks for checking back with us – it’s always great to hear from Original Posters.
bluew says
The higher HIS income, the higher child support he will have to pay. Thus, this may be a reason why he doesn’t want to earn more money.
Honestly, what Evan suggests is excellent. I must say though, there is a possibility he will not accept that proposal. Why? Please read below.
As per the letter the issue seems to be that both have different lifestyles / attitudes towards life.
He is willing to live in a small room, thus needing only to work enough to cover costs. Inferring from the letter, he doesn’t seem to be a very ambitious person.
She on the other hand opted for the house, thus needing to work two jobs at the moment. Among other reasons, she seems to be very ambitious.
You cannot change people! Either she accepts him for who he is or she finds someone else.
bluew says
Lisa, I just read your reply after I posted my comment. Glad to hear the biggest issue has been solved. 🙂
Joe says
What I don’t get is this: Lisa said he spent $150/month on food before moving in with her. Now with one man, one woman and two kids in the house, the food bill has ballooned to $1000/mo and he “eats more then [sic] all of us”? Did he suddenly develop a requirement for filet mignon at every meal? Has he blown up to 400lb? The math doesn’t add up.
Nicole W says
Karl T #73,
I am both Nicoles.
YOU suggested I wanted a man to take care of everything…that’s why I mentioned that I support myself very well.
Your math skills are lacking. He wasn’t paying 33% when he paid $600 and still isn’t now that he is going to pay $900. I’ve never heard of any couple including MINOR children when dividing up rent/groceries etc. Very cheap in my opinion.
Again, I stated that if Lisa is happy then that’s what important. For me, that wouldn’t work. If he wants to be that chintzy, he can move back into his little room. He will not enjoy my entire home and the benefits that come with “living in” for 25% of the total expenses. That’s my take on this. Too bad if it bothers you. Many women feel the same way. I discussed it with the ladies I worked with (we are all well paid registered nurses), and many of them agreed this guy is getting away with murder. Only an opportunist would be okay with this arrangement.
Julia says
@Lisa
He isn’t a “family” type but I guess that is why he chooses to send money instead of seeing his own kids.
How is it living with a man who isn’t a “family” type when you have a family? I understand he is very nice to you but if he cares very little for his own children and for yours, how does that make you feel?
Goldie says
Lisa, thanks for your updates! Glad to hear the problem is resolved. To other commenters that said $900 is still too low – it’s not $900, it’s $900 plus meat. Meat is expensive. $1000/mo total for food for a family of 4, where one is a grown man, and two are teenage kids going through a growth spurt, sounds reasonable to me. One thing I still don’t get though – if he really eats more than everybody else, then how come “he sees that the cooking and cleaning are mostly because of the kids”? But as long as he does yard work and repairs, I guess it kind of doesn’t matter.
Selena says
@Joe #78
Yeah, I wondered about that too. He must have lived on beans/rice/ramen before he moved in with Lisa and her kids. And now he eats more than $500 worth of food a month when he’s gone over 12 hours a day? Hmm.
Other odd math: the rent/utlities/food was $3600 per mo in the original letter, in the updates it adds up $3000. Whatever.
Selena says
@Nicole W.
I very strongly suggest YOU never date a man with children.
Karl T says
Nicole #79,
Nicole, you’re the one who is cheap! I will speak about you because the OP and I agree and she is a fair and logical person. You would really expect a guy to cover costs 50% to cover your kids when you are already receiving child support from the father of the kids?? Wow, you really feel everyone owes you, don’t ya??? Why would the guy ever be responsible for kids that aren’t his and already receive child support from their father while he has to continue to support his own kids?? Tell ya what, why don’t you go date a guy with 2 kids and split everything 50/50 (I assume you have no kids) and don’t utter a peep about it being unfair.
Your equation you provided does NOT include the child support that the OP is collecting. So, it is extremely inaccurate.
How come women like Goldie, Selena, and many others on here don’t agree with you ??
Goldie says
@Selena #82
Well he eats something when he’s gone 12 hrs/day. Either he eats out once or twice a day, which in and of itself could easily add up to $500/month. Or he packs enough food to last him 12 hours, which, for a grown man, also adds up.
I would not be surprised if he actually had lived on ramen or something similar before moving in, since he doesn’t cook. It had to be something cheap, quick, and junky.
And you’re right, the total expenses do now add up to $3000 not $3600. Typo in original letter??
Goldie says
#76
“As per the letter the issue seems to be that both have different lifestyles / attitudes towards life.
He is willing to live in a small room, thus needing only to work enough to cover costs. Inferring from the letter, he doesn’t seem to be a very ambitious person.
She on the other hand opted for the house, thus needing to work two jobs at the moment. Among other reasons, she seems to be very ambitious.”
It would take a very laid back attitude towards life for OP to be willing to share a small room in a house with roommates, with her two teenage children. I honestly don’t know anyone who would do that to their kids, unless they were in an extremely bad situation. You actually would not be able to rent a studio (equivalent of renting one room for everyone) or a 1BR apartment if you have two children. By law, apartment management is not supposed to allow you to rent that. What OP described sounds like a very modest lifestyle. Small house, no TV, no eating out etc. They have similar attitudes towards life. Only difference is that she has two more people dependent on her living under her roof.
Selena says
@ Goldie #85
Wouldn’t appear to be a typo since LW said SHE paid $3000 herself in household expenses. Which makes me think the grocery math might be an exaggeration as well.
Nicole W says
Julia #80
I hope Lisa returns to answer your question. I am also wondering why his attitude towards her children sits well with her. That, in my opinion, is more disturbing than his freeloading ways.
Selena #83
Unlike the posters boyfriend, I would happily help to take care of the children (financial and otherwise) of the person I love. Not really sure why you are suggesting I avoid men with children when I would graciously help take care of them.
Karl T #84
I’m not the cheapie here! You are the one that thinks it’s okay for this guy to do what he’s doing. First of all, unless there is a serious commitment (we are engaged), I wouldn’t be moving any man in. Shacking up is not my style. Next, the big point that you are missing is that I am not asking for anything I wouldn’t give in return. I don’t have children yet, however, I would be happy to help the man I love take care of his. If anyone is cheap, it’s you! Based on your strong defense of this man, you would happily shack up with a lady and live off of her! Just because a handful of the ladies here agree with you, doesn’t automatically make them right. Their expectations are clearly lower than most. I would expect the man I love to help and support me in the raising of my children. On top of being cheap, this guy doesn’t even want to clean up, cook, or help around the house. I am still wondering why he chose to date a lady with two kids! I will not be rehashing the same thing over and over with you, as it’s quite obvious who the cheapie is.
Selena says
@Nicole W. #88:
If we look at the housing expense $1700 rent + not quite $300 in utilities = almost $2000. He’s paying $900; that’s almost half. If he didn’t live there the LW would be funding that on her own- minus some less for utilities. So she’s better off financially having him there, and I’d say paying half the rent & utilities IS helping take care of her kids.
HE is also paying $1600 a month to take care of his own kids. I don’t see where she says she is helping out with that. In fact, she is getting money from her kids’ father on top of her own earned income.
Her issue apparently was with the amount she was spending on groceries, now that he’s willing to buy all the meat she is satisfied. I’m not getting where you think this guy is cheap. Fortunately he got a better job, but with a lot longer hours.
Housework: She says he does the outside work. She also says he works TWICE as many hours as she does a day. Maybe you would want to cook and clean for 3 other people after working a 12 hour shift,… 6 DAYS A WEEK. I’d be more inclined to want the people who had the extra 6-7 hours do it. Or just make myself some eggs when I got home like this guy does. 😉
I’m getting that your idea of partnership is “throwing everything into one pot”. How do you know it’s not pretty much working out that way in this household after all incomes and expenses are taken into account? His income/her incomes; his expenses, her expenses, his kids expenses, her kids expenses. It doesn’t sound to me like anyone is really taking advantage of anyone else here so I find the vitriol against this guy rather jarring.
Karl T says
Nicole #88 said:
“Just because a handful of the ladies here agree with you, doesn’t automatically make them right. Their expectations are clearly lower than most.”
Wow, a true class act you really are Nicole. You don’t sound like some caring person to me at all despite your self declarations. Selena, Goldie, and others, I guess you ladies have low expectations according to Nicole.
As for the money, Selena already explained it in her post in #89 so there is no sense in me repeating. You can choose to ignore facts and believe whatever you wish to believe, but let other readers form their own opinion based on your comments. They speak volumes…..
Lisa says
I like what Selena says. It’s hard to explain unless you live Here. Like I said, since I sent the letter things have changed and he works quite a bit now. As for the math problems, my original post was adding up all expenses including credit cards, cell phones ect… $1700 for rent, $300 in utilities, $1000 groceries is $3000. The rest is cell phone, Internet, health benefits, gas for vehicles, ect….. his $150 he use to spend was tortilla and cheese and some meat. He was alone and ate out a lot and pretty skinny. Now that he is here, he eats well and gained some weight. Of course when I refer to groceries I also mean bathroom items, laundry, dish soap and household cleaners. He takes a good lunch with snacks too! in a perfect world step parents would join you and become your second wonderful happy family. Unfortunatey it doesn’t work that way and as long as you can come up with something that will work for everyone and everyone seems content and happy then go with it! starting a new family is very difficult when you have kids from another man and vice versa for women. We take care of each other the best we can and he helps if I ask but not in the cleaning, cooking, laundry. Weird but things could be worse and if that’s all I have to complain about then I shouldn’t be complaining!
marymary says
Lisa
If you are happy with it, that’s the main thing. Your children already have a father and, as they are older, they may not feel the need for another “at home”.
The cleaning, cooking, laundry etc is a difficult one to navigate. I do know a woman whose husband does everything, and I mean everythng. He’s not a househusband as such, he has a job. But more typical is the raft of women who complain that their other half does nothing to very little.
the problem is – now that the finances are resolved, are chores the next on the ticklist? My boyfriend does quite a lot of chores even though we don’t live together. He was brought up that way from a young age. It had nothing to do with me. Has any woman ever turned round a grown man I wonder?
Selena says
Lisa,
As someone who’s lived alone, lived with kids, lived with a partner with and without kids, I have found I usually end up spending twice as much on groceries when I live with a guy as I do when it’s just me. Not only because a guy requires twice as many calories, but because I would make bigger dinners, use more meat, than when it was just me, or me and my child. I liked “taking care of my man” in that way. So I’m not surprised if you are spending more on food now that you are co-habitating, than either of you spent when you lived apart.
Anecdote: At one time I had a live-in partner and I was spending around $80 a week on groceries for the two of us. He would give me $40. After awhile I got irritated because he was eating 3 times the food I was. (I’m petite). Pointing this out didn’t have much of an impact – he didn’t see it because he ate out during the day when he worked. And he worked 6 days a week.
What I decided was to stop cooking a meal every night. One day I went around to 10 local restaurants and picked up take-out menus. Then 3 times a week I’d ask him what he wanted to pick up for dinner on his way home – we’d discuss several possibilities. It’s funny but it turns out he didn’t like giving me money, but he had no problem buying my dinner. Even though it was more expensive! Go figure. 🙂
Anyway, I’m glad you and your guy found a proportional split that works for both of you. Especially given all the negativity in this thread.
Julia says
Re: laundry
Am I the only one who was raised in a house where everyone did their own laundry? My mother did hers (and ours when we were small) my father did his, they split the towels/sheets. At about 10 both my brother and myself started doing their own. All my friend’s do all the laundry in their houses and complain non-stop. I full expect that an adult male can wash his own clothes so it baffles me that some of them don’t….
Selena says
@Julia #94
Agree with you on this one also. Kids are old enough to do their own laundry. BF could do his on his day off – not very taxing to do 1 -2 loads.
Chance says
@Julia
No, you weren’t. My household was like that. We typically did our own laundry. Some women don’t do yardwork, some women don’t cook, some women don’t do a lot of things, but guess what, it doesn’t baffle me. I just assume that is the arrangement that the couple agreed to. If one works a lot more than the other, I would expect the other to do more around the house. Anyone who can’t see the fairness in that isn’t really interested in what’s fair.
Goldie says
$1600/mo is a lot. Especially since it’s almost half of his take-home pay. He takes care of his kids, good for him.
Lisa, I too am glad that you two found a solution that works.
Julia says
@Chance
Its fascinating that you know the intimate details of my friend’s marriages.
Goldie says
My kids did things on an as needed basis. Like when I was married, I did everyone’s laundry. Basically spent a whole day out of my weekend doing laundry. Then we moved into an apartment. We lived on 6th floor and the laundromat was in the basement. And of course, on evenings and weekends, there were lines out the door for a free washer and dryer. I showed both kids how to do their own laundry, since it was not feasible for me to do everyone’s anymore. When I bought a house, my oldest continued doing his laundry, but my youngest asked me to do it and I did, it wasn’t that big of a deal to me. Then I met my bf and started going away to his place every weekend and meeting up with him during the week. Youngest son had no choice but to do his own laundry, since I was never around. It’s not a hill for me to die on, though. Same with cooking. When I’m home, I cook for everyone. But I’ve been out of the house so much, both kids got into the habit of cooking for themselves and, on occasion, for the whole family. I’d say that in our family, we do things the way it is maximally convenient for everyone, and realistic (ex. I cannot have a hot dinner on the table on Saturday if I leave home on Friday and return on Sunday).
I do realize that in blended families, there’s more tension around these issues. My kids and I have a very good connection and work together very well as a team. But we’ve known each other for a while. If I met a man and he moved in with us, integrating him into our family life would be a lot more difficult than sharing housework amongst ourselves.
@ Selena 203,
Google says it’s either Men’s Rights Activists, or Mountain Rescue Association… my money’s on the first.
Selena says
@Goldie
I looked it up too. I’m sure Julia was referencing Men’s Rights Activists. Some amusing definitions on Urban Dictionary.
Angie says
Wow. This post (as well as comments) leaves me feeling confused. The fact of cohabitation can be complicated and differs with every situation leaves me wondering if I did the right thing.
I have been with my boyfriend for 1.5 years. Before moving in with him 2 months ago, we discussed finances and other responsibilities. We are both in our mid twenties, but he has a full-time job that pays well. In short, he earns more than 5 times the amount that I make. He has a nice luxury car and 3 motorcycles. Currently, I am attending grad school in pursuit of a Ph.D. I also work as a grad assistant, which brings in a little over $1,000/month.
He he is wonderful about helping with the chores and groceries. If I ask him to take out the dishes, unload the dishwasher, or vacuum, he does not complain. When we buy groceries, we usually split the cost in half. Having said that, I do have an issue with rent. When we decided how much we would each pay for rent, he decided that we should split the rent down the middle. I objected, as he takes the garage space and I park on the street. We decided that he would pay $100 extra.
Nearly half of my income goes to rent and utilities. Add $200 to that for groceries, and another $200 for my cell phone and car insurance, and I am left with some gas money and gym payment every month. I hardly buy clothes. I pack my lunch every day. I visit my family 2,400 miles away once or twice a year (I moved out of state for college). I have great health insurance but have no dental coverage, meaning that every time I visit the dentist, my wallet resembles a thin sheet of paper– there’s nothing in it. Sure, I can drop the gym. I can spend less on groceries by purchasing lower quality food. I can use a credit card and pay it back over a few months. But where does that leave me?
I am living at the poverty level. I have sacrificed many things to be in school, which I don’t regret. When I complain about my finances, the boyfriend kindly reminds me that I chose this route. I agree. But can’t he be a bit more sensitive? On one hand, I feel that he’s right. On the other hand, I feel slighted for some reason. Maybe I’m being a brat. I don’t know.
At at the end of the day, I realize that if I were to live alone or even with a roommate, I’d be paying close to the same amount that I do now. I figure I can make it work (as I have in the past, but it’s not easy).
The boyfriend has mentioned pursuing a masters degree. Call me cruel, but I chuckle when I envision the day that he will complain about his finances. I will kindly remind him that he chose to attend school and sacrifice a big paycheck 😜 *sigh*
Mrs Happy says
One of the errors women (and men) fall into is using language that suggests they think ALL of the housework is the woman’s to do. If you say “he is wonderful about HELPING with the chores and groceries”, it presumes it is your job to do all the chores and groceries, and any he does, are to help YOU.
I think it’s better to consider the situation as, these are all the chores that need doing to run this household, which ones should each of us do. Not to assume the chores are all the woman’s, and any the man does, are to help her. Doing the chores is to allow the household to run; to help the household (not her – she is not the house!).
“If I ask him to take out the dishes, unload the dishwasher, or vacuum, he does not complain.” This sets you up to be the overall organiser, keep tabs on all the chores, divvy them up, do some, ask him to do some, if he doesn’t, nag and nag until he does, which all increases your workload. And this behaviour feeds into the (incorrect) assumption that these are your jobs and he is helping you.
Assuming equal health and energy, I think HOURS worked is the fair way to split it. So if one partner is in a 50+ hour/week commute and full time job/study, and the other does 30h/w in that, then the latter has the ability to pick up 20 hours of the household tasks, after which they split the remainder equally. And I think time spent caring for children (not plonking them in front of the TV all day, but actually doing work to raise them) is work that should be counted in those initial hours; it is unpaid, but it is work.
My advice to women: stop implying men are helping YOU when they do household chores.
Selena says
Well Angie, at least neither of you have kids! 😉
Nicole W says
Selena #89
INITIALLY…this man (I use that term loosely) was paying $600 towards $3000 in monthly expenses WHILE the lady of the home works TWO jobs. He doesn’t lift a finger to cook, clean, or do laundry. He also doesn’t think he should cook or clean up after her kids. He said (Lisa’s quote) “Even if I make more, I will never pay half”.
If that sounds fair to you, your sense of fairness is whack! And I know a couple of men that would happily take advantage of you!
PRESENTLY…Mr Wonderful has decided to contribute $900 (and meat..lol) towards the $3000 in expenses while the lady of the home continues to work 7 days a week. He still refuses to lift a finger in the home and is not a “family” guy according to Lisa. He also kept true to his word by not giving her more than 1/3 toward the expenses even though he is making a lot more $$. I could be wrong, but I assume he is making more working a 72 hour week, yet he continues to let her work 7 days a week. Nice!
Even with the new arrangements, he comes across as being stingy and uncaring. Selena, our opinions differ because all of the men I have dated are generous and giving and I am not accustomed to that kind of behavior. I will never settle for that kind of man. More power to those that do.
Clare says
I have to say, I would never, and I mean NEVER, get into a serious relationship with a man where these sorts of in-depth discussions and calculations about money were necessary. I have NEVER had them.
The men I have been with have all been generous and trusted me never to take advantage, and I have been so in return. In fact, my ex-husband whom I was married to for 5 years gave me a card with access to his bank account and only asked for it back almost 2 years after we got divorced. THAT is the kind of relationship I want, not one where each refuses to pay for this and that.
And I agree with Nicole. If I was living with a man with children, I would definitely not refuse to pay for them. I wouldn’t expect to pay for bigger expenses for them, but day to day expenses of course I would contribute. For me, it’s part of the “flow” and open-hearted nature of a relationship.
Goldie says
Nicole, this man gives close to HALF of his take home pay to his kids as child support. That’s generous and giving in my book. My ex gave less than that, per kid, and also said to me that, if I wanted more, he’d fight me in court. I have girlfriends whose exes committed to giving a fraction of that, and then weaseled even out of that commitment, by producing fake income papers with their income showing as much lower than actual.
Also, if I worked 72 hour weeks, I wouldn’t lift my finger around the house either. I just physically wouldn’t be able to. I do not at all feel like judging this guy after Lisa’s follow up posts. Seems like they’re working together as a team, and he’s doing as much as he can.
Clare, hmm if you’re saying that you’d never get involved with a man who is open to discussing budget and making mutual decisions on it, then all I can say is, more for me. That’s exactly the kind of man I want. And I wouldn’t be able to sleep through one night knowing that my ex had unlimited access to my finances, that I need to support my children. Unless this ex had somehow earned an incredible amount of my trust, or unless I had most of my money in a different bank account elsewhere.
“I wouldn’t expect to pay for bigger expenses for them, but day to day expenses of course I would contribute.”
Sounds like an in-depth discussion about money to me. So you *are* prepared to have one 😉
Clare says
Hi Goldie
Well that’s the thing. There *was* an incredible amount of trust between me and my ex-husband. Also in the other significant long term relationship I had. In both of these relationships, the guys I was with trusted me implicitly with money, and I them. They knew I would never take advantage and vice versa. There was a flowing quality to money where generosity and trust were the dominant principles. That’s just the point I was making 😉 I wouldn’t want to be with someone whom I couldn’t trust implicitly to be generous with me, and I would want them to trust that I would do whatever I could for them if it was in my power in return. By the way, I earned this trust… I am not materialistic nor did I ever take advantage.
You said:
“I wouldn’t expect to pay for bigger expenses for them, but day to day expenses of course I would contribute.”
Sounds like an in-depth discussion about money to me. So you *are* prepared to have one
No, I wouldn’t have one. I would just pay, if it was within my power to do so.
I know the arrangement I describe above where he gives freely to me and I give freely to him seems strange to some, because people are so used to holding onto what they’ve got, but I *have* experienced it, and it’s great 🙂
Selena says
@ Nicole #103
He said (Lisa’s quote) “Even if I make more, I will never pay half”.
Yes, and Lisa also acknowledged in a later comment that THREE people were contributing to household.
PRESENTLY…Mr Wonderful has decided to contribute $900 (and meat..lol) towards the $3000 in expenses while the lady of the home continues to work 7 days a week.
And the lady of the house also acknowledges her two jobs 7 days a week add up to 40 hours. Opposed to his 72 hours per week currently. Meat..lol? You must not eat meat or you would know that is a significant monthly contribution. Especially if all 4 of them are meat eaters.
He also doesn’t think he should cook or clean up after her kids.
I don’t think he should either. For one, they are 13 and old enough to clean up after themselves.
Two: if she were interested, their mother could have them help her cook. She’s off work when they get home from school. Plenty of time.
Three: since he’s gone for 12+ hours (depending on his commute) 6 days a week, it doesn’t sound like he has much time to do anything, but unwind for a couple hours before he has to go to sleep. How much of mess is he making to clean up in that short period of time? And if no one cooks for HIM, he doesn’t complain, he makes himself an egg and toast. And on his one day off he does the outside work and any repairs needed.
You think my sense of fairness is whack? My sense of fairness comes from having a family. From being a single mom, and a partnered mom. A working mom & partner and a stay-at-home mom & partner. From sometimes receiving child support, and most of the time not. From having a partner who PAID OUT child support and knowing how that can impact not only his finances, but any household he’s a part of. From having a partner who also worked 12+ hours a day, 6 days a week. And it comes from being very modest income – something that teaches you alot about budgeting and priorities among other things.
I don’t know where your sense of fairness comes from Nicole, but I’m guessing it’s more from fantasy than experience.
Goldie says
Cassie,
“I know the arrangement I describe above where he gives freely to me and I give freely to him seems strange to some, because people are so used to holding onto what they’ve got”
People are used to planning and maintaining a budget. Having the money flow freely is awesome when you have an infinite supply of it. When your whole month’s pay can flow out of the window in two weeks if you don’t watch it, that’s when discussions about money come in. My x bf and I gave freely to each other within our means. For example, he’d plan a vacation together and take on most of the travel expenses, but not to the point where he wouldn’t have any money left to pay rent. I’d contribute some of the money upfront and share some of the expenses during the vacation, but not to the point where I cannot pay my son’s college bills. And so on. And I haven’t even gotten into things like saving for retirement, that also need to be budgeted for. This is why people have discussions about money. Not because they’re greedy and stingy.
Clare says
Hi Goldie
I never said such people were greedy or stingy, nor did I mean to imply it.
And I meant give freely to each other within your means. I most certainly did not have an infinite supply of it.
There was nothing negative meant in my comment, please don’t try to find such.
Goldie says
I’m not trying to find anything. I’m just trying to explain why people seem like they want to like you said, “hold on to what they’ve got”. I have to admit I have never in my life seen a family where no one budgets, no one ever discusses money, everyone gives freely and it all somehow works, meaning all their bills are paid on time and their expenses do not exceed their income. Either these people would have to be crazy wealthy, or they secretly maintain a budget when no one is looking 🙂
Giving within your means to me means there’s a conversation about money that has somehow taken place, so both sides know what the other’s means are and what to expect. Yet you say you have never in your life had a conversation about money. I don’t understand it. When you two made a major purchase like a car or a house, how do you know how much car or house you can afford, if no one talks about it? I am honestly puzzled. I get it that you are just as puzzled about people who count their money and discuss their budget with their partner. I find it even more mystifying. I apologize if I came across as negative, I am more like curious. You do realize though that your advice will not work for almost all people. Most of us cannot follow your example.
Clare says
Hi Goldie
When I said never have “these kinds” of discussions about money, what I was meaning was divvying up every last penny to the point that you’re actually working out fractions and percentages, and who should pay how much, and who’s paying more than whom, and making calculations and so on and so on, as has been discussed here.
Of course we discussed making purchases like a house and car, etc. but it was NEVER you pay for this and I’ll pay for that, and I won’t contribute to such and such, and you earn more than me therefore your percentage is X and mine is Y, and so on and so on. Literally what was mine was his and what was his was mine. We shared everything and he never denied me and I never denied him (if we could). I think *that* is what I am really talking about here, there was no withholding from each other at all… And he trusted me to never take advantage of that, and I never did. I think it is *that* that I am talking about – the trust, the generosity, more so than the nuts and bolts of sums and budgets. In both of my relationships we had that trust. Of course we’d add up how much we had and what our expenses were, but everything was always “ours”, not “yours” and “mine”.
Goldie says
Clare, Oh I see. That’s because you had joint finances I guess. OP and her boyfriend have separate finances, so it is different. They also each have to support their children from previous marriages, which also adds a difference. If I tell my bf all I have is his, where does this leave my kids?
I have to add, I admire it that you had this trust in both of your relationships. Most families fight about money even when they have joint finances. I am honestly happy for you that you and your both partners were able to have things working well in that regard.
Nicole W says
Clare #104
I see you get the gist of what I’m talking about. Thankfully, someone does. I’ve never been in a relationship where the money is so precisely divided up either. The posters relationship doesn’t come across to be one where they have each others back no matter what. It appears her live-in will give the minimum necessary to keep her quiet. Very bizarre to me and thankfully, it’s not my norm. I’m used to the type of relationship where we would give each other the shirts off our backs.
Selena #107
I noticed you glossed over the fact that Mr Wonderful is most likely making a lot more money now that he is working so many hours, yet he still refuses to fork out more. And saying you aren’t willing to cook or clean up after someone’s children is plain mean-spirited. It doesn’t matter wether the kids “need” help or not. I don’t know many mothers that would be okay with that.
My sense of fairness isn’t born from fantasy. YOU see it that way because you must split pennies the way the OP does. I am pretty sure you would see things differently if you had generous giving partner. When someone is generous and giving, it makes you want to give back 10 fold.
Karl T says
Nicole #103,
Tell me what she is doing to contribute to his kids?? How come you don’t ever mention that? Is she sending money to them or buying them things??? What happened to them? It seems like you just ignore that and treat the situation as if he is a guy with no kids and other obligations and she is the only one with kids. You call him cheap for not paying more for her kids…and BTW 1/3 of the costs is paying for MORE than his share. He’s only required to pay 1/4. So, she works 2 jobs- she works a total of 35 to 42 hours a week while he works 72 hours. Who cares how many jobs you have- total hours is total hours.
Clare says
Goldie,
Thank you.
Yes we did have joint finances and it worked for us because there was that trust, which I think is very preferable.
Admittedly, I don’t have kids and there were no kids involved in these relationships, however when you’re with a generous man you’d be surprised how much easier these things are. No we didn’t have kids, but he supported me completely for 2 of the 5 years when I was not working. He helped me with money for my passions. And I gave in my turn. When we got divorced there was no arguing whatsoever about dividing things up.
It really is, for me, wonderful and preferable. But not having children, I can’t comment on that specifically.
Clare says
Nicole,
Yeah, I am also used to a relationship where we would give each other the shirt off our backs. I wouldn’t want it any other way. And being with someone like that DEFINITELY makes you want to give back 10 fold.
Lisa says
Selrna has it spot on in #107! She is smart and open minded, logical and I can see she has worn plenty shoes in her life! When I wrote the letter I was scared! We had just started living together after a very long fantasy courtship! he wasn’t making as much money as he is now and he was adjusting to this new need for income. it turns out he stepped up to the plate and got a better job making almost double he was when living as a bachelor. The kids are 13ish and clean up after themselves (for the most part) they do their own laundry (for the most part 🙂 and have a dad already. True he pays a third but my ex husband contributes and so do I. Seems fair! The housework is a bit strange but I am not in a big rush to fix it, it will fix itself over time. Meat is very ridiculously expensive and he is the meat eater! I thought it was a brilliant idea when he came up with that idea. he picks up things here and there like bread, rice, butter, toilet paper when he notices we are out. I guess I jumped the gun when writing the letter because he ended up proving how valuable he is in my life. I was scared and disappointed when he didn’t offer to pay for anything but he can’t read minds so after our discussion per Evans answer, he, not I, came up with a better plan for us to move forward with a future plan that we both are happy with. Thank you for all your comments, it helped to see things in different perspectives!
Selena says
@ Nicole
From the original letter: He never goes out or spends foolishly on himself. He really doesn’t have enough.
That’s when he only had $600 to contribute and Lisa had 5 times more.
Nicole W. #52: Sorry, he has to go! She is working TWO jobs in order to keep the house going, and he refuses to do the same. It doesn’t matter whose kids live with them. If they are going to have a life together as a couple, they are both responsible for the care of ALL the kids (his too). I would take all the monthly obligations and divide them in half. If he can’t pay half, Adios! This is why I won’t date a man that makes significantly less than me.
She may have two jobs, but they were working the same amount of HOURS.
Lisa #64: We had a discussion and he has agreed to contribute $900/month now plus buy the meat. That seems fair to me.
after he pays his child support and I receive mine, with our income, we each bring in about the same into the house. He has credit cards, truck payments, but I don’t have any so that leaves me paying for most everything.
Lisa #There are three incomes coming into the house. The OP, the boyfriend and the father of the children therefore 1/3 is fair.
The boyfriend never complains and never expects anything. He is going to contribute more towards groceries and that was may biggest issue so problem solved.
Nicoleinfl #65: I still feel your BF is getting off easy with $900. After paying you $900 and his $1600 child support, he still has $1100 left over. Surely he can help a little more so you don’t have to have 2 jobs. I personally would want half the rent.
Nicole W. #113: I’ve never been in a relationship where the money is so precisely divided up either. The posters relationship doesn’t come across to be one where they have each others back no matter what.
Ah.
And: I noticed you glossed over the fact that Mr Wonderful is most likely making a lot more money now that he is working so many hours, yet he still refuses to fork out more. When someone is generous and giving, it makes you want to give back 10 fold.
Expect you don’t Nicole. You won’t tolerate a guy making less/having less to spend than you. And if he makes more, YOU want more. You are not interested in what is fair. You are not interested in having someone’s back. You are interested in making sure NICOLE is the recipient of generosity and if she’s not…ADIOS!
Nicole #103: Even with the new arrangements, he comes across as being stingy and uncaring. Selena, our opinions differ because all of the men I have dated are generous and giving and I am not accustomed to that kind of behavior. I will never settle for that kind of man.
Which brings me to an obvious question: So why haven’t you chose one of these generous and giving men to have a family with?
Zaria says
Angie 101
Think before you become deeper involved with a man who is not inspired to feed you while you work hard at climbing the social ladder.
This man does not seem inspired by love to care for your well being. It feels like he does not see you as family. Are you planning to have children some day with him? Is he going to use your body and health for free to make his children and yet make you pay 50% of his children needs and 100% of the food and care necessary to keep healthy your body used to create his babies?
Man in love would say “You chose this road and I feel proud and support you with all my heart. Let me take care of our food and your dentist bills. In fact let me take over when your bank account is empty until your monthly allowance comes in. I believe in you, you will make it. I am sure you will help me back in your own way.”
I don’t know if your insurance pays for the contraceptive pills, but that’s something else that costs. Is it included in the sterile, loveless maths? The monetary costs of contraception and the health risks we take by eating these pills. How much does he pay to compensate the health risk you take so that he can have fun sexually, not bothering to use condons, not bothering to ejaculate outside, not bothering to check the time of the month, totally care free?
xxx
Zaria says
I don’t want to live with a man who does not realise the rent of my body to create his future babies is priceless, the rent of my breast to feed his future babies is priceless, my health risked to make his future babies is priceless. His unawareness feels cut from the source when he thinks I owe him the rent to live with him.
I don’t want to live with a man who does not see that feeding my body and paying my dentist while I am still a student is honouring himself as the health of his own future babies depends on my health. Feeding their mother is the least he can do when he uses her body for free to have his babies and puts her health at risk. It feels cut from the source when he thinks I owe him the money for food while my food is building his baby inside me, my food allows me to breast feed his child, my food allows me to raise his child.
I don’t want to be with a man who makes me create a baby with my own 100% body when he does not want to feed that body and that he does not want to pay the dentist so it stays bacteria free for the sake of his own babies.
I don’t want to change for ever the shape of my body for a man who makes me pay on my own my new cloths for the new body I was left with, who makes me pay my own food and half the baby’s food and accessories and half the baby’s house.
I don’t want to be with a richer man stuck with feeling poor myself, bad food for myself and the baby, having to stop my studies or jobs long enough to give birth and breast feed the babies while watching this man eating better quality food in front of me and the children. And how can I manage to pay half a lower quality of food for the baby while he pays half a higher one? How is he going to divide the quality? How is the children’ dentist going to be paid if the father will pay only half and I do not even have enough for my own dentist?
What would be the use of such father inside my home then if he pays only for his own 50% of the rent, his own food and his own whatever needs and only 50% the baby’s food??? As if I had created half a child.
A man who does nothing for his woman while she challenges her health giving birth to his family with 100% of her own body, struggling to pay her food and her half of the children food while he drives his expensive car?
Where is the love ? Where is the role model for the children?
OK, so I don’t want that type of father for my future family. What’s the point in sharing a home with this man, then? I might as well live alone or with a female roommate to open the space for new suitors and find a loving responsible father for our future children.
xxx
J says
Zaria- i understand your point but i just want to say that not using condoms is just as much of a benefit for the woman as it is for the man. If she chooses the pill, she enjoys sex without a condom and sex without worrying about the time of the month as much as he does. If there are health risks she’s not comfortable with, there are other methods of contraception besides pill and condom.
Selena says
Thank you Lisa for the compliments. 🙂
I pulled quotes from your posts to juxtapose next to Nicole’s because I wanted to illustrate to her what “fair” and “having each other’s back” really looks like in a family. It’s not always about who makes more, who has more expenses, or splitting things even-steven; it comes down to what works. And appreciating what you have.
May you and your partner have a long and happy future together.
Evan Marc Katz says
Very dramatic, Zaira. And pretty silly. In your world, men use women to carry babies and must always contribute more financially. There are no circumstances in which a man can contribute less than 50% of the income, because if he does, that mean’s he doesn’t love you or love the baby.
I’m not saying you should be with a deadbeat dad – not at all. I’m saying that your attitude only leaves a small percentage of men who can pay for you completely while you quit work entirely. Stop focusing on percentages and start focusing on how he treats you as a human being: does he listen, is he loyal, does he make you laugh, does he have your best interests at heart, does he want a future, is he financially stable himself? If the answer to those are all yes, and you still get upset that he can’t afford to pay for over 50% of everything (because, you know, that means he’s disrespectfully renting your body), you’re gonna need a lot of luck to find a man who wants to support you and your one-sided entitled ways.
I know you were giving advice to Angie, who shouldn’t have been allowed to post her question at all. So here’s my advice to Angie: a) he’s not your husband. He’s your boyfriend. My wife was $40K in credit card debt when I met her. Was it my job to pay it down because I made five times more? No, it was not. I paid for our meals and travel. She paid down her own debt. b) if you don’t like your boyfriend’s behavior, find a new boyfriend. You may discover that the one you gave up wasn’t all that bad. Finally, c) you can try to renegotiate your 50/50 split of household expenses to something fairer (I agree it’s unfair), but since you’re the girlfriend and not the wife, you don’t have the same leverage. He hasn’t committed to you, and you haven’t committed to him either. Ultimately, expenses should be allocated on a means to pay basis. He makes 5x more than you, he should pay 5x more. It’s only fair – when you’re married. You can open up this conversation with him and see how he reacts. If he’s a fair person, he’ll acknowledge your situation and renegotiate to make you happy. If he doesn’t, you can leave him. Just don’t take any of Zaira’s overdramatic rules to heart. You have a good boyfriend. Time will tell if he’s a keeper.
Nicole W says
Selena #118
I’d appreciate it if you would stop assuming things about me. I could do the same and assume that you will put up with anything just to have a man next to you. I could also assume your standards are very low. But I won’t. Your experiences in life allow you to accept this as being fair and mine don’t. It’s really that simple, so we can agree to disagree. Why I’m not married isn’t any of YOUR business, so we don’t need to get into that!
It’s clear to everyone that Lisa’s man was being very unfair to her initially. That makes me feel that he would have been happy to live off of her if she hadn’t spoke up! Now, I still don’t think he is being fair as he is able to give more and chooses not to since “the kids aren’t his responsibility” and he “will never pay more than 1/3”. You can make all kind of excuses for that, but it comes across as mean spirited to some.
Nicole W says
Karl T #103
I am not gonna keep repeating myself. I already stated that if I were Lisa, I would divide up all our expenses (including his child support), and share them. You choose to skip over a lot and keep repeating that 25% is more than fair. It is, if you are an opportunist. That’s my opinion and it’s not going to change. I have also stated that it isn’t just about the money. It’s more the fact that he doesn’t want to lift a hand around the home or help her children in any way shape or form. And please don’t tell me he is working 72 hours, because he was the same when he wasn’t working 72 hours. The stinginess and mean-spirited attitude in this relationship is actually worse than his cheapness.
Selena says
Nicole #124:
I’d appreciate it if you would stop assuming things about me. I could do the same and assume that you will put up with anything just to have a man next to you. I could also assume your standards are very low. But I won’t.
Nicole, in your previous posts on this thread you DID make those assumptions about me, as well as calling me a penny pincher. It’s your own little “digs” that prompted me to point out the hypocrisy in your own writing. Usually I don’t get personal with commenters, I prefer to look at what the Letter Writer has to say, what appear to be the facts. Throughout your comments it’s clear you deliberately didn’t want to address some of the facts.
Why I’m not married isn’t any of YOUR business, so we don’t need to get into that!
Absolutely true. Do you understand though, that not having the experience of living with a partner, having your own family, makes your ideas of what that should look like, possibly different from those who are actually living the experience like Lisa?
It’s clear to everyone that Lisa’s man was being very unfair to her initially.
No. It was in fact very unclear why he had only $600 to spend on expenses. Why she was working two jobs. How much money she had coming in and how much he had going out and why. Lisa came back and clarified about those things several times. You just didn’t like her take on her own situation. Even she in her original letter didn’t demonize the guy for his smallish contribution.
In her words: He tells me everyday how much he loves me, he brings me flowers when he can. He never yells at me or criticizes me. Should I just keep paying and just let him pay what he can? He never goes out or spends foolishly on himself. He really doesn’t have enough.
SHE understood he was doing the best financially he could at the time, even though it felt disproportionate. She later admitted it was the grocery split that bugged her and that was resolved. But you don’t care that this couple found a proportional split that works for them. You keep using this thread as a vehicle to expound on what wouldn’t work for YOU. Maybe you should write your own question to Evan.
Now, I still don’t think he is being fair as he is able to give more and chooses not to since “the kids aren’t his responsibility” and he “will never pay more than 1/3”³. You can make all kind of excuses for that, but it comes across as mean spirited to some.
By now we all know what Nicole’s definition of fair is.
To others fair, reasonable, logical follow a different definition and can be fluid upon circumstances. And not in the least mean-spirited.
Nicole, LISA is happy with how her previous dilemma has been resolved. Why can’t YOU let it go?
I will cheerfully disengage from further debate with you if you stop provoking me. Deal?
Goldie says
# 120
“I don’t want to live with a man who does not realise the rent of my body to create his future babies is priceless, the rent of my breast to feed his future babies is priceless, my health risked to make his future babies is priceless.”
Wow, when you put it this way… So by the same token, how much is the rent of his genetic material to create your future babies? Also priceless?
Also, trust me, you do not want to go down this route with a man. If you market yourself to your future husband as a priceless baby machine, then don’t be surprised when he tells you that you cannot work outside of home, go back to school, tells you how to parent the children, tells you how many babies to have and when, and all around calls the shots when it comes to you and parenting. After all you’ve already told him that your greatest asset, one that comes with a “priceless” tag, is making babies. Good luck with that.
Joe says
I get the impression that Nicole thinks the boyfriend should pay 100% of the household expenses.
Clare says
I actually really don’t get the impression that Nicole feels the boyfriend should pay 100%. I think it’s just a different view.
Not everyone feels that things should be split down the middle, or allocated according to precise proportions and percentages. I happen to be one of those people. I don’t want a relationship like that. I want the opportunity to be generous, and to experience generosity. I really enjoy being generous within my means to those I love, and I am drawn to men who are the same way. There may be times when I pay more than my share, and there may be times when he pays more than his share. I believe in an abundance mindset. I don’t ever mentally count pennies, and I wouldn’t want to be with someone where I got the impression that was what they were doing.
I’m not sure if this is what Nicole was saying, but this is how I feel.
I am very happy for the OP that things have worked out for her in way she is happy with.
Nicole W says
Clare 129
You are correct. My general sentiment is the same as yours. I do feel in this case that Lisa’s man should cover approx half the expenses or at the very least help more around the home. As Evan said, you negotiate and sacrifice more for a spouse. This guy acts more like a roommate than a loving boyfriend, so I wouldn’t be sacrificing anything for him. I would have ran like hell if a guy told me he would never pay more than 1/3. I don’t need any financial help from the men I date, however the stinginess and selfishness that remark imparts would turn me off completely. I am also drawn to generosity. I also agree that there are times in a relationship when the monetary split changes. That’s fine if the other person has your back in other ways and at least acts like they appreciate your help. That doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Selena 124
I’m sorry that you feel provoked when faced with differing opinions. That wasn’t my intention, and I am entitled to continue sharing them as this is a public message board. I havent dug at anyone (well except maybe Karl who I honestly feel is an opportunist). I didn’t call you a penny pincher. I did suggest that you must split pennies with your partner in the same manner Lisa does, since this so normal and acceptable to you. I’m not going to debate you sentence by sentence Selena, as I have already pointed out the reasons (based on Lisa’s words) why I think this man is stingy.
I don’t think I’m being unfair or illogical or wanting as much money as I can get (your words) because I require more out of a partner. You did get one thing right though. I prefer not to date someone that makes significantly less than I do. I have studied and worked very hard to provide a certain lifestyle for myself, and I prefer to have a partner that can do the same for himself. Wanting a partner with similar ambition and goals doesn’t mean you want all their money, dear! It just makes things a lot less complicated.
Joe says
So you want the guy to cover half the expenses even though Lisa has 2 kids. What if Lisa had 10 kids–would want him to cover half then, too? How about 20 kids?
Julia says
@Joe
20 kids? hyperbolic much?
Karmic Equation says
Joe,
What do you think about Angie 101’s situation? I’m curious about your and other men’s take on her situation.
Angie 101,
I was in a similar situation with my 6yr ltr, only I was the one making more money.
I made 3x more than he. I only had him pay 1/3 the utilities and no rent, as I owned the house and the mortgage was in my name. I liked to eat out more than in, so most times, I would pay for all our meals. Sometimes he’d chip in. I paid for the toiletries and cleaning supplies. If we needed tools in the house I didn’t have, I bought them. He supplied the brawn to fix all the stuff that needed fixing. I did the laundry and the occassional vacuuming, he cleaned the toilet and bathroom (on around the same schedule I did the vacuuming, which, sadly was not as often as I should have, having 3 dogs. lol)
I always wanted to make sure that since I had plenty, that he didn’t have to ask me for money to do things for himself (eat out at lunch with his work buddies, buy new shoes or clothes when needed, etc). So I willingly took less from him. I knew that since he made less than I that it was wrong to ask him to give pay half, even of the things he should have paid half on (e.g., utilities).
That’s what happens when you love someone. You don’t want them to do without if it’s within your power and doesn’t cause you any harm. Asking him to pay half would have harmed him and that was wrong.
Maybe your bf is a nice guy. But not intuitively helping you when he can seems to be red flag to me.
Maybe he’s just stupid and a quick convo would flick on the light bulb in his head. But if he knows and doesn’t care, I’d say you’re better off cutting your losses now and finding a man who has my mindset about inherent fairness and understands what you’re supposed to do when you love someone.
Good luck.
Rose says
To me if you are living together as a couple or married the money just goes onto joint account and it is shared money.
They become step children once you make a comitiment to move in. Oterwise what are you? A room mate? FWB? Lodger getting free sex?
He can’t give you what he hasn’t got and visa versa.
Goldie says
Nicole W 130
“I would have ran like hell if a guy told me he would never pay more than 1/3. I don’t need any financial help from the men I date, however the stinginess and selfishness that remark imparts would turn me off completely. I am also drawn to generosity.”
So you would be drawn to a guy if he told you he’d pay 100% if he made 500K/year, even though he never has made 500K a year and never will? Talk is cheap. I’d look at the guy’s actions. So far Lisa’s bf, one, agreed to pay a TON in child support – not many men would do that; and two, agreed to a compromise after he and Lisa talked the situation over. So far so good.
Karmic Equation says
@Rose 134
“To me if you are living together as a couple or married the money just goes onto joint account and it is shared money.”
Married perhaps, but definitely not if you’re only living together.
If you actually have done this yourself, then you’re a trusting soul and possibly too naive for your own good.
A Joint account into which we both throw in 1/2 our net income would be acceptable, if THAT is what you meant, I would agree with you. Anything else, I would say you’re naive or have no significant income or savings to be concerned about.
Goldie says
This thread is starting to remind me of Nights Of Cabiria 🙂
Rose says
Karmic. I get what you are saying and agree in hindsight. I pesonally would not live with any man without an engagment ring and wedding date booked.
Angie says
Apologies, Evan. I am new to the blogging world. As a result, I am unfamiliar with the logistics and etiquette of using a discussion board, so to speak. I do know that people become irate when one posts a new question on a separate thread if another individual has a similar question. Second, I reasoned that 100 comments were sufficient to answer the OP’s question– why not throw in what I’ve been pondering lately. Oopsies! point taken 🙂
I would like to respond to the comments presented to me:
First, I chose to use birth control. He also uses condoms every time. I decided to take that extra precaution. Second, why act like he is using my body for His fun? I assure you, I am joining in on the fun as well. Free sex? FWB? Roommates? None of those characterize our relationship. I don’t believe that I need to be married in order to have a lasting, committed relationship with someone. Granted, if he wanted to get married (which he does), I would be more than happy to say “I do.” My point is that, just because two people are not married, it does not mean that one person is getting used. I happen to believe that commitment is commitment, regardless of marriage. We have discussed that moving in together is the next step in our journey together.
Having said that, I acknowledge that he is a great guy. He is there for me every step of the way. Yes, he listens. yes, he is loyal. He definitely makes me laugh. He is always a shoulder to cry on when I have family troubles. Having said that, I know he is also stubborn. He tells me it annoys him that I complain a lot. Yes, I’ve cried over the intensity of the schoolwork. There have been times when I felt like dropping out. But at the end of the day, I know he would drag my behind to class and tell me to stop being silly. I think (and it’s just my opinion) that he doesn’t understand. His parents paid for his education. They paid for his first car. They also paid for his gym membership, and his healthcare. I had none of that. We come from two very different places. Ultimately, we have to attempt to understand one another and communicate our wants and needs. Off to decide how to bring this up to him!
Katie says
Sorry, Evan, I didn’t mean to piss you off with the changing roles for a fortnight thing. I didn’t mean to imply you weren’t happy or that you needed to or anything. I didn’t seriously think that you’d do it anyway – it’s just always kind of nice to get Mrs K’s insights too as we know it’s a successful and solid relationship you have. I read all your blog stuff regularly (I’ve read some articles loads of times) and I wasn’t at all meaning to imply that you don’t appreciate each other, or that you don’t spend enough time on family stuff. I remember almost word for word the blog entry where you tell us you knock off work at six every night and never work weekends (I think from the is there any point in dating an alpha male entry) so it was in no way a criticism or meant nastily. I’m truly sorry if it didn’t come across in the light hearted, appreciative of both you and Mrs K way that it was intended. I’m a bit socially challenged and don’t always sound like I mean to sound. Please, know how very much I look forward to all of your entries, how very much comfort I gain in my sad hours from reading your material and how very sorry I am to have irritated you with my comments. I promise I did not mean to and intended only to be light hearted, plus it was nice that time that Mrs K did an entry – like seeing the other side to a very golden coin. Love Katie x
broken picker says
I just got out of a relationship with the exact same dollar amount going on, except i have one child and don’t get any child support. He actually nets the same amount as me after his child support is taken out of his paycheck and feels $600.00 for rent, utilities and food is too much. When painted the hall and living room, he asked me to pay him for the work done. I work full time at the same job for 24 yrs, come home to cook, clean, do tons of laundry due to his construction job and tend to the entire yard.
I wish i had read this site a long time ago cause i just wasted 18 months of my life with a total leech. I hope the next woman doesn’t fall for it like i did.
l says
They are probably not saving for their retirement either. She’s going to outlive him, most likely, so that should factor into the conversation. He needs to get a better paying job so they can plan further ahead than next month.
Jennifer says
@Selena
My ex-husband pays child support AND lives in his own apartment! What if this man had to do that? Doesn’t sound like he could afford it. He’s conveniently using her as a cheap place to live so he will be able to pay his truck payments as well as his child support. He probably doesn’t have anywhere else to go.
Leila says
I really do feel for her and have been in a similar position myself. My husband was without a job for 3 years. He had enough money to pay some bills by getting it from his parents. I was understanding of his difficulty because he had gotten back from Iraq and was struggling with depression (something I am familiar with). But after years of it, I became a little resentful. I paid 2/3 of the bills including all the taxes and half the food. He paid 1/3 and half the food. But then he became resentful (for some reason) that he had to pay for that much of the food and didn’t believe me when I kept telling him that I was actually paying more than he was already. He also wouldn’t cook or clean and we got infested with roaches because he would constantly leave food out on the table. Meanwhile, I was going to school and working full time and was gone for 16 hours a day most days. It was incredibly frustrating for me to hear him keep saying how he does everything around the house (I did clean some but not a lot because I was literally gone for the majority of the day and came home to go to sleep). But at the same time, he never actually did anything and his justification was that he paid “his half of the bills” (which was not half). I didn’t mind him paying less but if that’s what you’re going to do AND not have a job, you best be doing some kind of work around the house. When I was between jobs, I took care of all the housework but as soon as it was his turn that was just an unacceptable arrangement. This isn’t about money or gender roles. It’s about providing equal financial support and equal work. If you’re lacking in one, you should make up for it in the other.
evita says
I totally understand how you could feel that way. My boyfriend when he moved in withwas only paying support for one kid and then it went up to two kids and now $500 for health insurance. His paychecks fluctuate and sometimes low. We both split the rent $360 each and I typic ally buy the groceries and we both pay half for the interenet. I have a 10 yr old daughter that I take care of myself I dont receive child support. I pick up whatever bills need to be paid outside of the basics because at times he has no extra money left over. At times I get frustrated because not only does more than half his check goes towards his kids but then he has to send them stuff etc. My situation went from paying support for one kid to two kids to health insurance. At times it upsets me because eventually I want another kid. I want to get married and with his financial situation I dont see that happening and I dont feel comfortable bringing a child unto this world when he cam barley support the ones he already has. He always ensures me he will make more money but to me I see this situation never changing. I love him with all my heart but I dont know if I can live the rest of my life in this situation. He works hard and hardly ever has extra money to do something for his self financially and its been like this for 2 years now. I have talked to him about it and so he knows my frustration and he just ensures me that he will make more money.
Sammyboo says
I think you should give the guy a break! I’m due to be married next year to the most amazing man! He earns less than i do and supports his 2 children financially. Neither of us drive so we have to pay for public transport which is a ridiculous expenditure! But i always have almost 3 quarters of my salary left over for as he puts it ‘us to enjoy our lives together! He has never asked me to contribute to the household although i have offered and even sneakily paid some bills! I don’t rely on my fiancé financially but we do enjoy ‘my’ earnings as a couple is that unfair? Not a bit i love him i care for his children as if they were my own i cook clean do laundry and even work over 60 hours a week i do this not because it’s fair or because i have to i do it out of choice!! Knowing I have someone who shows me they appreciate everything i do and loves me relentlessly is enough! If you can’t afford the bills suggest a move n explain why you feel that way but also remember he may be deeply offended and think your insulting his capability as a man to perform the basics of human nature providing for his family!!!i wish you the best of luck!
Jojo says
im in the same boat OP, except that my boyfriend gives half his check to his child’s mom and in the 5 months he’s lived with me and my little boy he’s bought groceries once, and given me 400 for 2 months (not consecutively) while my bills and daycare fees add up to over 900. OP men now a days seem to expect the woman to pay for almost everything if their name isn’t on that list. It’s hard with children because you need help with them as well and if he babysits once in a while you won’t want to just get rid of him. If you’re paying 3000 in rent, you should consider downgrading to a cheaper place. If you can afford to pay everything on your own and don’t need him to babysit then you should let him be “a nice guy” to some other woman because he’s taking advantage of you. there are a few nice guys out there that will be happy to pay half for everything.
Rosa says
This is ridiculous.
Though he shouldn’t be expected to pay for her children, he should WANT to! That is the woman he loves and those are the children he may be taking in. Advice? DON’T move in together! If he doesn’t want to help with the children, he doesn’t deserve to live with you when you will have to front much of the bill. All this guy cares about is his checkbook.
SAINT says
When you decide to continue a relationship with someone that has children and move with them you are accepting to start a family. The same as you accept eachothers finances. I have guy friends who love their step children as their own and they support the family together.
First, yes, I agree. This woman should look for a less expensive place, but that is not an excuse for her partner to not pay his part. He accepted her with kids, so he should contribute. Even if she knew his financial situation he needs to man up and work to provide. What is a woman doing working two jobs and this guy is only working one and doesnt even do shores. He takes advantage of her in a very nasty and manipulative way. Flowers, please what an ass%$. Take her on a vacation, make her a nice dinner with candle light. WORK FOR CHRIST SAKES. Why doesnt he work two jobs too? Ohh wait, they may raise his child support. Don’t give me that. This guy is not even rasing hisown children the mother is. So the least he can do is pay for child support and that is not even enough for children. His child support is an obligation. But he accepted his current partners kids so now he must assume the role of a step father. The children dirty the place and that’s why he doesn’t clean. I SHOULD SLAP THAT GUY!! Be a man, stop whining and help your woman. Also, if this kids are small they will eventually see you as a father figure like it or not. DUDE, BE AN EXAMPLE. And don’t tell me “I care for my children and when is my turn to see them I do everything for them” DUDE, you don’t wake up in the earlies mornings to fight with them to take a bath. You don’t run with your kids to make it to school. You don’t run to the hospital with them. You are not there to reprehend them most of the days. YOU PAY CHILD SUPPORT. Don’t complaint. But is not your step kids fault that you are their stepfather now. So behave like one.
Second, he is living the life. She pays almost everything while he only pays 600$. Buddy, if you want to have a wife who cooks and cleans but you dont want to be responsible for her children or high rent, FIND A SINGLE LOW MAINTENANCE WOMAN WITH NO CHILDREN. But no man like this will never do that. They will always try to find a woman who makes more so they can tell them the same sappy story about how they don’t make much and BOOM a woman is all soft and accepts him. Jeez..
Third, WOMEN… Please stop the non sense. Some man these days don’t want to work much. They want to make enough to survive and take you on a date, pay low child support, but that’s it. They want the woman to take care of them.
Yes, woman do this too, they want to find a man who supports them.
HELLO!!!!!!! People when you get into a relationship work everthing out like finances, children, life, expected lifestyle. Don’t just dive in. Once you enter a relationship because he/she is so nice and loving you are F-ed!!!!
If you can’t do any of these. THEN LIVE IN SEPARATE HOMES!!!!
Balance your life with your partner. If you don’t want extra responsibilities then SCRAM!!! Go and live a Bachelor’s life in an efficiency. LOSER!!
I’m I to harsh for saying LOSER!! No. I’m not. This guy is living the life…. “I love this woman, but I dont want the full responsibility of her children, I dont even have my own children with me. So, why bother. I guess she can cook, clean, care for her own children, pay rent work two jobs. While I give her 600$. And I won’t work an extra job so I can keep paying my shitty child support to my kids who I’m not raising. What a wonderful life.”
He’s a LOSER taking ADVANTQGE of her.
LADY, move on!!! Is better to have LOVERS than a LOSER in your place. A love treats you better.
“If you are tired of relationships, try a romance” QT
Russ says
Try being a “StepFather” and watching it happen to your StepDaughter! I can’t tell you how hard it is to try and get her to see the young man she met is a quitter and makes excuses so he can “play without pay” – I certainly don’t want to hurt, or even worse have her move out and not bother with her Mother and I anymore, but here I sit and see… He plays video games and lives in her room all day, only comes out to eat and shower under my roof > Contributes NOTHING! Try my shoes! God I pray she doesn’t have children with him!
Heather S says
Money aside, if he isn’t doing his fair share of cooking and cleaning, he’s a slacker. Any man that sits back and watches someone else do everything around the house is lazy. Period. It speaks volumes about his character.
Laurie says
Evan,
I love your advice usually. But I was surprised to read that you make 4x what your wife makes, and now she doesn’t work at all? Excuse me? She stays home with the kids. That’s work. You should calculate how much it would cost you to put two kids into daycare five days a week. Her time spent with the children is priceless. Your comment demeaned her position, making it sound like she’s a dependent as well. Someone has to watch the children, and it’s hard work. You need to rephrase what you wrote… it’s very revealing about how you consider the role of a stay-home mom.
This does not sound like your normal self! Usually you are better than that!
Evan Marc Katz says
I’m pretty tired of the thought policing around here. You have no idea what I think and are willfully reading negative things into a simple statement.
A job is universally considered what we do for money. Going to “work” is what we do when we go to an office and work for money.
My wife does not have a job. She doesn’t work for money.
Nowhere did I say that I don’t value my wife’s massive contributions to my life or my kids’ life. I have never remotely minimized it. This is only YOU grabbing a word “work” and assuming a whole bunch of bullshit things about me. So just stop. You’re wrong.
Natalie says
Red flag….run! Are these two considering marriage? If so, this is not a suitable relationship for LW and she needs to find a man that will contribute more to the household and her needs. It sound like LW is settling and not considering all of her needs as a woman. After I divored my ex I too found a man that was loving and very nice but did not have a job and struggled to get on his feet. I had a child from a previous relationship, received child support, and made $7000 month not including child support. After 7 months of dating we found out we were pregnant. I paid the bills while he went to school and worked 2 jobs although he complained and later was fired from one. Then after our son was born he tried to move in his mom into our home. I have never asked him to financially provide for my daughter who is not his child but in some ways I find that is wrong. If you are going to have a committed relationship to a man or woman that has children they all come as a packaged deal regardless of whether they receive child support or not. If a man will not accept the financial responsibility of a child that is not his but says he love you your child is an extension of you… he can accept the responsibility of you but not your children and helping around the house??? Sounds like you are a rebound relationship and need to run, he is extremely selfish and needs to change, or he is a freeloader. I would also question why he would get in a relationship with a woman that had 2 kids if he had no way to support them? Yes, we cant help who we fall.in.love with but we also cannot expect for others to clean up our messes.
cashito says
It seems we are not been honest here. No that the guy is lazy or something, except he is not making much as the lady. Every relationship has gotten it own flaws. Turn the table around and see if your husband would have complained, if he was contributing more money than you. Be yourself, love him as much as you can. Besides cooking and raising the kids, can you tell me there is no other chores in the family. For exactly how much they spend within a month is not necessary, but as to they are able to afford. We all got our different financial lifestyles. I will advise you try to encourage him to work on his professional career now that you can support more, so he too can have a lot to offer. If you kniw he really loves you, don’t listen to internet and book advices because that will really screw your marriage. Gender equality is good but it brings about in-balances in relationships. Play your role and encourage him as a lovely wife.
'Ria says
You grow up and face the realities of the issue:
Which are basically two things:
#1 A Man will never, ever pay for anything for a child whom he’s not the biological father of. 400 Million years of evolution have ensured that.. if you force the issue too hard her’ll leave you.
#2 More seriously and practically you have higher earning power than he does. The earning power balance between men and women is actually reversed..
#3. You have asymmetric earning power and most likely never actually discussed how expenses would be allocated before you moved in.
#4. Reseenting him won’t magically increase his earning power or solve the problem.. it will just make you both unhappy.
Have a listen to this podcast: PW 437: Talking about money to learn how to do it properly.
Pay no attention to it being a poly community resource.. if you can’t get it right in one relationship, then you can’t get it right in three or four at once in the same house… So the people speaking in this episode quite likely have their shit together.
Just skip straight to 9 minutes in to get to the actual topic… the show has a standard format and the rest of the segments won’t be relevant to you.
JustAnOlderMan says
LOL
Sorry but I brought many things for my GF kids many times and I never ever complain about it. I was proud of those kids and whatever they wanted I got them if I could.
AJ says
Love this advice. I’m in a somewhat similar situation to Lisa, not as many factors, but similar and I’ve been wondering how to approach the situation with my boyfriend because I AM feeling the resentment starting to rise, and I don’t want that. Mentions of ‘how things are’ seem go unnoticed, so I knew it was time to sit down and have a heart to heart. I’ll be using the advice here.
Our situation is that he was living with a relative about 60 miles from me, and would come on the weekends to my house due to my job and animal responsibilities. I didn’t mind feeding him, doing most of the cooking, and letting him spend the weekends since he was spending the gas and mileage to get to my house.
Now, however, he’s taken a job in the area and although most of his stuff is still at his old place, he is physically in the area 6 days a week. He’s still had an attitude of me buying all the food, paying all the utilities, paying all the rent, splitting meals out, etc. I’ve been putting my foot down, but it’s turning into CONSTANTLY putting my foot down and I’m getting pissed!
He does earn less than me….but after rent, our take home is almost exactly the same. Meanwhile, I’m working 3 jobs, at work for 8+ hours a day 7 days a week for a little extra spending money, and he still has his weekends off, goes off to have fun with friends and is not seeking any other part time work, yet still acts like I’m this bottomless pit of money that can feed him all week because he’s “broke” even though he just went off playing all weekend….
Anyways, otherwise, we get along great and we’ve had a good relationship. He accepts me for myself, and I really appreciate that. We’re going to have to sit down and have this talk though, and I think the advice here is exactly what I was looking for. I didn’t want to come across as accusatory, and I wasn’t sure how to deal with the disparity in income – this is helpful advice!
Lucy says
Leave him he sounds like his a baby if he really loves you he would take care of you even if he makes less money
Tom says
im a 50 year old male I lived with a 45 yr old woman in my new home while she placed hers for rent..she never contributed to household bills save for $150 week and food once a fortnight when her 2 teens would stay the week…the food she bought was mostly junk stuff for the kids and if I ate something I wasn’t supposed to id get told it’s the kids food..I did all the housework with rare instances where she would quickly clean the wet areas and toilets..I even had to clean after her kids esp the girl who had a nasty habit of not wearing sanitary pads so she would bleed thru her clothing and instead of putting them in the laundry basket we provided in her bedroom she put them back into her draws by the end of the week the kids draws were full with soiled underwear..mum knew and did try to correct the problem without cleaning the draws herself however she gave up quickly when kids were unresponsive to change..of course after a few years resentment built up on all sides and as a result she began cheating in preparation to secure a new partner prior to breaking up..within a few weeks of our break she entered into a new relationship with a 56 yr old wealthy obese man who is much like her in that he doesn’t do housework..ironically I was abused and insulted for many things but the one that hits home was her insulting me about my slight weight increase which was no where near obese like her new man..her final words were ” your not worth the financial convienienc and I can’t believe I had to pay you rent ” incidentally It was her idea to call her small contribution rent…
i just wanted equality has we both earned similar wage and she was accumulating rental income as well which she invested for herself and kids and we both had free time to do household chores..
im left feeling had I just let her have a free ride and not complain bout household chores or the uncleanliness of her kids that we would not have begun to resent eachother nor would she have cheated.. @50 I’m devastated as this is my second time in a row being cheated on and my first wife was of the same character..beginning to wonder if all women are alike though I know that’s not the case.
ShivaD says
Tom – I am baffled how you put up with that. After treating you like a doormat she left you? I think you need some self-esteem boosting or therapy as no one should allow themselves to be used like that. Def read this nlog more – even though its geared towards women everyone can learn from it. I really feel for you and truly hope you take that experience and learn from it without becoming bitter. This letter and thread make me want to add kids as a dealbreaker. I’m just not sure if I want to have a mate who has child obligations, particularly when I don’t have kids. It would really depend on the circumstances surrounding the kid (i.e, was the baby a product of casual screwing? How many kids vs # of mothers?), the age of the child, and dynamic with the mother. O
ne thing that was a major red flag for me was that he CHOSE to pay $1600.00 a month and not be in his kids life and clearly has no interest in being involved with her kids. If she loves him thats her business I just seriously hope she doesn’t have a kid with this guy. Thats like the 3rd and 4th babymommas who always act surprised when he doesn’t stick around – did you not learn from the 1st two?
sss says
Thats bullshit. Shes already getting money from the previous father. And she wants money from this boyfriend as well? So shes gonna get money from two guys instead of one?
Simon says
The big red flag for me and its hardly been mentioned is this guy has moved away from his 3 kids and no longer sees them. That is not the actions of a wonderful man. No man would willfully move away from his kids and even if there are extenuating circumstances there is never ever a reason to give up on seeing your kids. This man is certainly not wonderful and I suspect deep down Lisa knows this but the relationship is great because it’s still early days but the chickens will come home to roost eventually. No man who gives up on his kids is a wonderful man and Lisa should have ran a mile when she found out.
fff says
im sure if the guy was the one complaining, so many of you would be saying “thats the way it is”…but it seems women want equal rights, well, think of you payin $3k a month & him $600 a month justified
Lucy says
Well I think his not a real man a real man takes care of his girl even if their not his kids what the hell he needs to except the whole package !!! And even if u get child support that money is for the kids and he doesn’t need to worry about that money at all grrrrr this dude is not a man he sounds like a kid a teenage kids you gotta take care off I would kick him the hell out because sounds to me his using you….
Rob says
wow this has me all heated up. If you are in a relationship and decide to get a place together, speak about living arrangements and expenses upfront. This will help avoid disappointments. #2 nobody is trying to get rich off the $600 you have left over. When his stupid ass figures the mortgage light electric cable and all the other bills he should either man up and get another job or b leave. You are making him to comfortable by the sweat of your brow and you will resent him. But be direct and up front about it because finances can be a major source of stress in a relationship. If he doesn’t want to pay his part cut off on the entertainment a while if you can. Cancel cable, wifi and all the extras and if he’s a little boy who likes his toys he will definitely pay for those. These men child piss me off. Stop being a victim of child support and tell your ex NO.
Alexis says
Been there. Worse feeling ever. Too many guys are looking for a hand up. Yes you are being taken advantage of. Really what does he provide you? Not enough. Single is way better. Wait til you find a partner who would never expect you to carry him and can carry his own weight without needing you. So sorry. I feel your pain.
JustAnOlderMan says
I am on disablity I receive about 850.00 a month yet I pay 500.00 to her. I cook most of the time and do most of the housework. She work 8-10 hours a day. When she get home there is Hot Dinner for her on the table a hot bubble bath for her which is just right when she is done eating. While she sit in the tube I massage her feet. Later she get a full massage which usallay last 2 hours for her. We’re both were happy until she had to move to England for the company. I found another place to rent a room for 5o0.00. If I were her just kick the fool out. seem to be ungraceful about things…OH yes she had 2 kids I took care of as well..
Jess says
I knew a man wrote this lol
420 says
Love stinks
420 says
we are mostly here because we googled a broke man, so it seems to be a trend. I’m tired of his bs, same time I don’t want an std, his package is decent, and I get decent not great oral. So I’m hanging 4 now.
Jerrin says
Omg if he is really the great guy u say he is then yes you should bite the bullet. i am married to a man who pays absolutley nothing. i pay the rent, the bills, the groceries, EVERYTHING along with putting up with him screaming at me daily and calling me names because a large portion of my money comes from survivor benefits from my ex husband. he says since i dont work for that money its not technically mine and it should be used to support him also. if he was maybe just a little bit nice to me and didnt yell or picked me a flower once in a while, id be a happy camper. long story short, if u have a good guy who loves u and shows u that he loves u, dont let finances come between u. cherish what u have, theres women like myself who would love to find a man like yours.
Michael Wilson says
if you dont like the arrangement ask him to move out simple then you would not even get $600 extra in your pocket you would get nothing, then see how well you get along, the thing is this the mistakes people make in realtionships is basing a relationship on money and bills, really, first let me give you all some extra insight into what a lot of you need to soul search about, money is not real and if money is causing you resentment in life you wont go forward you will go backwards, because its only a matter of time before the arguments start with money, sounds to me its all greed when is it that the cost of living each week comes to $3,600 really??? most politicians earn that much a week,
this whole story is absurd and sounds like a winge,
I REPEAT STOP FOCUSING YOUR LIVES AROUND MONEY DO THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO DO STOP WORKING FOR MONEY START WORKING ON THINGS IN LIFE BECAUSE YOU ARE HAPPY TO DO THEM
Reebirt says
Child support should be off the table. It’s not for boyfriend to count. It’s for the kids. That is what wrong. If mom puts some towards household expenses, that’s her business. The fact that boyfriend is nicle and diming her income is a clear sign that he is a free loader playing off her emotions. Child support is for the kids – mitts off! Maybe the children can join sports, or go to movies, or go on vacation or go towards education – NOT FOR FREE LOADING BF TO DEDUCT. This is just another example of abuse. He can’t afford the lifestyle he is trying to Weezer into.
SandraD says
This one!!!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
larry henry says
I’m in a situation where we made an agreement that she was going to contribute $300 per month and I would take care of the rest it’s a year later and nothing she’s even moved her sister in who contributes nothing. So I’m basically taking care of my girlfriend her daughter and her sister. My girlfriend had 2 jobs and still expects me to give her money for gas and to pay her phone bill. Very frustrated
Chris says
It will never work, me and my girlfriend have been together for 2 years next month. It began with her helping with as much as she possibly could to the gradual less…less…less, Until finally she has no job at all and hasnt for the past 6 months. We have a 5 year old daughter and a 11 month old daughter. I work an easy 60-70 hours per week every week and I have to, if I want to maintain the life I have and my daughters have I have no choice. Of course I could turn off the cable, of course I could turn off the internet try to use a little water and electric as possible but I dont have the heart to explain to my daughters why they cant watch their cartoons or why Im being strict on the lights. I work and I make it but with all of the bills and my Child Support its not an easy task. She sees me tired, working all of the time, coming home and cant even make it to the bed Im out on the couch. Still, she does nothing to help. I will honestly tell you I was madly in love with her when we first met, with her not helping me, it has made me to the point that I cant stand to be around her. I cant stand to even carry a conversation with her. I dont want to hear her excuses or what she feels are problems. If your with someone there suppose to be a partner not someone that sucks the life out of you. I cant stand this woman and Im getting to the point to where I dont want to come home after work but I do for my girls. I hope this doesnt happen to you but please find a solution before its to late.
SandraD says
So if she doesn’t “work” does she take care of the kids full time while you’re at work?
Erin says
Hi
When 2 adults live together, wether it be 2 mates or a couple the rent is usually shared 50/50. Doesn’t matter if there are children living in the home… they are not rent payers.
Yet the utility’s could be split 4 ways as there are 4 consumers in the house.
As far as housework, everyone needs to contribute.
All the best in sorting this out:)
Carla Wong says
I could agree with that too. I am still thinking she needs to pay her children’s stuffs not her boyfriend.
DeeGee says
Inequality in contribution was a large part of what ended my marriage.
This was back in ’87 through ’95.
She worked full-time while we dated, but then quit her job after we got married (against my wishes).
During dating she acted like the perfect girlfriend. After marriage she changed dramatically, she refused to do almost anything around the house.
I worked a full-time job and a part-time job. I cooked two to three of my own meals every day. I did the dishes and laundry at least half of the time. I did house cleaning at least half of the time. I did almost all of the yard work and maintenance.
I tried getting her to go with me for counseling for the entire duration of the marriage.
After nine years I just ran out of steam and couldn’t do it any more and filed for divorce.
Unfortunately I lost more than 50% of everything, of which I owned almost everything before the marriage.
The bad thing is that sometimes there are no red flags, or we just don’t see them, and sometimes you don’t see the problems coming.
I took it as a learning experience though, and since then have worked to make myself a much better person.
It is a gamble every time we get into a relationship.
Fed up says
This has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with sex. Men cannot adequately care for young children. Men and woman parent differently. Women are more empathic, and with children who cannot talk, empathy is the only way they communicate. Women are more verbal. This is how kids learn to talk and regulate emotions. It’s different once the child is over three.
Funny how the all ten research showing moms and dads parent differently means dads are essential and moms can’t replace dads, but means mothers are disposable and mean nothing.
I owe my husband sex. But he has no responsibility to help pay my medical bills from pregnancy or delivery. Maternity care is an unnecessary luxury. Single, presumably sexually active, men shouldn’t have to pay for it, and in the event of a divorce a man has no obligation for maternity costs from children born within the marriage.
Oh, but sex is a right and men have needs. Men feel loved through sex and woman get their needs met in other ways. Because a woman’s feelings, sexuality, and well being are laid abusive excuses for not satisfying men. Men don’t want sex. They want sexual servitude. These days men want to dominate sexually.
You can’t dominate the willing. I mean obviously you can rape a willing woman if your going to be brutally violent about it, but that leaves lots of physical evidence that’s hard to hide. So a man has to find another way. If I hear one more story about how men hate pity sex because it’s horrible and rapey I’m going to smash something. Making it horrible and rapey is the entire point. How else can the man be dominant and manly?
Yeah yeah don’t get too excited it’s not rape. I can still say no. Then there’s no sex at all. And I have to fend off bozo following me around calling me a cunt bitch and whore for 45 minutes.
This marriage crap gets old.
And then you come on here and pretend not to be a bigot and act like it’s something unusual for a woman to marry a man for his character. I used to think most men didn’t hate women and think they were justified in exploiting and abusing them. I used to think my husband was a freakish out lied.
Then I find crap like this…<just assume I’m sneering while I type this> It speaks well of your character that you didn’t marry a man for his money…because all women are gold whores and you’re the rare exception.
THIS is the attuide you have when you coach women? Well it explains a lot. All men think abuse is justified because all men think women are stupid and evil.
Oh excuse me, it’s only 99.99%. I’ve only met one man in 35 years who didn’t do this at least to some extent.
Here’s some advice for your clients.
1) Do not live with a man no matter what.
2) Have kids as a single mother by choice and a man can hold you hostage with what matters most.
3) If you insist on having a sexual relationship try to become a lesbian.
Otherwise that you end up with some guy who thinks pregnancy doesn’t count for anything. Is “gender neutral” meaning you can pop a pain pill and an antidepressant and be back to work 12 hours a day at 2 weeks postpartum because mothering, breastfeeding and secure attachment aren’t important for babaies and if not, well you better appreciate his generosity cause it’s gender neutral. Oh, and don’t stain his sheets with your lochia or complain about after pains. It’s not gender neutral. And then he gets to insult you as a woman for being a woman because women are gold diggers who don’t line a man’s characters. Blech. Just skip it and do it on another your own. It’ll end up being your mother or mother-in-law who supports you while you care for the kids, or watches the kids while you work most of the time anyway.
Evan Marc Katz says
TL;DR: You are unhappily married, so all other women should be, too.
I hope you have the courage to leave your husband and explore what it’s like to be happily married. You deserve it.
Carla Wong says
totally agreed!
Jeneane Parson says
I am in the same boat and it has been 17 years. I was in the process of buying my house when I met him. We dated and when I finally moved in he was here constantly so I said move in and we can share expenses. He was into that. All was well for 10 years. Both of us sharing household expenses and I was nice enough to exclude certain things I felt he should not be responsible for. Well he was laid off for two years after 13 years of living together. It was not his fault so I paid the bills but I expected him to pick up with the cleaning and fixing up the house which I had no issue paying for everything except labor. I found out during this period he is extremely LAZY plus he started to criticize my spending to fix the house up. I am writing this b/c I just said I am buying a portable dishwasher. I work full time he works sometimes now and he had the nerve to say where is that going. This is a man who redid countertops and cabinets. My kitchen is in need of updating and I don’t have the money to hire someone at this time. The comment about the dishwasher just threw me. So instead of yelling at him I am typing this. Thanks for being here so I can vent. I am in a quandary at this point in my life and just am at my wits end with him.
Patty Walport says
Just another lorder boyfriend who wants to live free, I’m sick of those types
Carla Wong says
I actually just dumped my boyfriend who has two kids. We know each other for about a month, we were fucking buddy to begin with later he was gone! he was hanging out with other girls. Three days later we contacted each other and he apologized to me for being stupid.
He was nice guy and we didn’t have any argument at all. He is so poor and couldn’t afford to buy food for him and his sons and pay rent. I came to his house for sleep over enjoying our evening and I left in the morning and didn’t come back to his place until late at night.
First time, he invited me to eat in his place so I expected some nice dinner and it was rice and one can of tuna and one can of corn mixed all together. I was shocked! It hurt seeing him and his son eating rice with tomato sauce only or sometimes slices of ham for sandwich with rice.
However, I still like him and stayed with him because I am not a materialist girl. In stead of cooking at my place and eat by myself, so I cooked in his place so with the food that I cooked we all eat together.
A week ago last Monday he gave me the key to his house so I won’t wait him in the cold. Last Monday he shopped food for his sons. Last Tuesday, I bought pizza because I was craving. I baked the pizza, his eldest son cut the pizza in half and brought it to his room without asking permission! I ended up eat not even close to one fourth!! I was so upset!!
Last Saturday, we didn’t have any food left for eat, so I said let’s go to supermarket. I only wanted to buy vegetable not spending my money for his sons. He not even asked me if it is okay to grab stuffs for his sons! he just grabbed all including pack of razon! it cost close to 8Euro. If I have money to spend I really don’t mind, but the fact I don’t have job and he knew! due to my student visa. At the end of cashier register he pretended like an idiot and ignored the cashier register when she constantly said how much we need to pay for all stuff. I couldn’t stand seeing this so I used my credit card thinking that I can pay for next month. But I was pissed!
I asked him nicely, why I ended up paying for all stuffs and came to surprise he said “do you expect me to pay those?” I was like .. speechless. I told him that I couldn’t pay those food in which those are for his son and also pack of razon for his son, 16 years old, he was so mad at me! saying that “Hey, they are my children! so don’t bring that up with me!”
I told him his sons is his responsibility not mine! he said “I can’t believe you saying that! I gave you my key to my house and now you tell me that my sons aren’t your responsibility!” “So what are we?” “So you want to separate bills of my sons and ours?” “Is that what you want?”
He asked me to pay his rent and I asked him why me the one who have to pay his rent while I also need to pay my own rent. He said that I have been coming to his house every night and have the key to the house so I am responsible immediately. I was shocked!
He told me everything should be divided into half such as rent, utilities, wifi, gas, and I am responsible to put food on the table for them! He said the rent is 475 Euro/month while I saw the lease agreement is 380Euro/month. He said that he doesn’t need someone to cook for him nor his sons, they can eat tuna out of can and no need to use the stove and water. He said he didn’t switch the light on in the evening, didn’t use heater, nor didn’t shower with hot water so basically all electric in the house was on because of me. He asked to pay half for every shit around the house. He told me he hasn’t pay rent and he needs to pay it otherwise they will get eviction, but why I am responsible to pay him just because I was mostly in his house every night ….
I asked him nicely what about your children then?! why do I pay half in everything while your sons also eat! using internet, using heater in his room, using gas for hot water, using light in his room so why I have to pay in half!
I dumped him immediately! end story … I live in my place paying my own place having my privacy eat what ever I like why in the earth I have to feed three mouths and they are not even mine. Beside, I barely know this guy at all .. just because he gave me the key .. doesn’t mean I am responsible for what he didn’t have in his life.
In this case, I would say I am seeing what he’s side … but I am not sure why did he need to find another job so he could or she could get more money? here the thing …. if they are not ready financially why she wants to have more children. Having one life is quite difficult already! now having two children … why?
So I assumed maybe one day she wants to have another child with him as well .. I could be wrong … anyway this is not my problem, but she needs to understand that she has no right to put pressure him beside he is not his husband yet. If the guy wants to marry her than he should share half with her. That just my opinion based on my experiences as well.
Tierra says
My suggestion is that you both go back to separate living arrangements. Things are just going to continue to decline. If you want to salvage the relationship, just let him know this living arrangement is not working out.
Maria says
You’re talking about two different scenarios. One is she is receiving child support from her ex. Two is you and your wife were married which makes sense why you would take care of her. Divorced women these days have higher expectations and do not want to take care of someone who is not contributing especially financially. He’s going along for the ride while she receives the extra support and he’s not going to help out. On his mind he has it made.
Lisa B says
Tiffers says
He 100% shouldn’t have to pay for her kids rent, food, etc. She also doesn’t say how much child support she gets. I’d be livid if my boyfriend expected me to pay for his children when they’re already being paid for by another woman. It’s entirely possible that after child support and paying for her children’s portion of the bills, she’s contributing 600 for herself to live there. Also. I work 2 jobs. My boyfriend works one. But i work half as many hours as he does.
As for the chores. He should be 100% cleaning up after himself at the very least. That is bullshit. I’d make sure he knew that his laundry etc is now on him. Stop doing it.
As for the finances. He’s not responsible to pay for anyone but himself and his child. I’d encourage him to get another job so he can have emergency funding/ savings. But not to support the kids.
Brooke Jones says
Sounds like he knows what to say or do to keep the attention off of paying more of the expenses in the house. Being nice and giving flowers is used to keep her distracted from the obvious. I have definitely been there and that will eventually run out. She’s already starting to resent him now.
Veronica Dep says
My partner is a typical lazy Yorkshire man is the same he does nothing he doesn’t work and gets paid caring for his mum only to take her out shopping I pay all the bills he doesn’t contribute he is very lazy and I have to tell him so mani times to do jobs around the house which never get done I’m sick of him he has shaved his head and looks ugly his mum and sister who is a lesubian are rude to me whenever they call to speak to him they don’t ever talk to me I’m slowly loosing interest in him
Aiah Z says
As a young woman in my twenties who is still in the US university system where I hear every single day how we women are the equal of men, and how men should let go of their toxic, outdated masculine ideals and embrace staying home, raising kids… I can’t muster much sympathy for this woman (original poster). Her boyfriend was previously renting a room. There’s nothing wrong with that. Whose idea was it for them to move into a house? If he’d wanted to assume the financial responsibilities of a typical Western house, he’d likely have been living, previously, in a house. It seems unfair to me to expect him now to pay half the expenses of living in a house unless it was his idea to share the house in the first place.
On my university campus I started a men’s perspectives and support club. I am the first woman on our very old campus ever to have done this. I did it because the way our culture is evolving to treat men is abysmal. We portray them in popular culture as bumbling buffoons who need children or us women to teach them how to do the simplest things. They’re often the punchline of genderist jokes. They’re very often the victims of unjustified physical violence unnecessary to fictional plots and too often in real life. And let’s not even talk about the admitted prejudices in our educational and legal systems. Add to these the social biases of what many of us consider “real men” to be and it’s no wonder that suicide rates among men in our culture continue to climb.
If the poster’s boyfriend is so kind and loving but money is such a large issue for her, then she ought to be frank with him and let him know it has become a deal breaker for him. They’ve already discussed the matter and he’s said what he’s willing to do. I feel confident that if the genders were reversed, people wouldn’t be so sympathetic towards the original poster. I’m sure there are a lot of women out there who’d be ecstatic to have a boyfriend who treats them so well and who’s faithful and emotionally present, regardless his finances. While I agree partners ought to share household responsibilities, if someone is making more money, is already receiving child support (while the other partner is paying to support children), and the first partner wants to live a certain lifestyle (living in a more expensive full house than a smaller, more affordable apartment…), the person who has more money should expect to pay more or look for someone whose finances are more suitable.
Ashley says
That’s $600 more than what I get. I have 2 jobs 2 kids with the father. Still have to cook clean and watch the kids. The kids father moved into my home and doesn’t want to pay for anything but food. Is that fair?
Carrie says
Evan,
I feel totally compelled to call you out on your statement, “These days, my wife doesn’t work at all.”
How could you post such antiquated rhetoric?
How do you think this makes the stay at home parent feel?
This line of thinking is detrimental to the committed hard work done day and night of the stay at home mother or father. It also exploits this physically and emotionally taxing role in the most degrading manner possible.
Is it actually too hard to say, These days, my wife works full time in our home diligently caring for our child and our household?
If she were not executing this job you both would certainly be paying someone else to do it. I do believe this is the definition of ‘working’ sir.
PS, It’s 2019
Shame. Shame.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry. The outrage police doesn’t preside over this website.
You KNOW what I meant:
My wife doesn’t work for MONEY.
Obviously she works her ass off as a stay at home mom.
Shame on YOU for willfully misinterpreting what I wrote to try and call me out for my retro views, which don’t actually exist.
Carrie says
Your post did not communicate even in the slightest how a stay at home parent is a valued contributor, albeit not in a monetary fashion.
YOU happily pay for mom and me classes is one clear example. It should have read, WE pay for these activities from my salary.
I did not read into your statement.
How our Country values stay at home parents starts with how we talk about it. It must change. You can help.
Outrage police indeed.
Evan Marc Katz says
Actually I pay for everything. While we argue on the internet, I’m paying for my wife to celebrate her 50th birthday with her best friend on a four day staycation. I am paying for another one with her high school friends in two weeks. I am also paying for our house, our retirement and the kids college funds. I even pay for my own birthday gifts.
I’m not complaining. I’m only pointing out that your above statement is incorrect. “We’re” not paying for anything. I am. My wife would tell you the same thing.
Any interpretations you have of my marriage or how I value and treat my wife based on one line in a seven year old blog post are, to say the least, limited.
Jeremy says
The word “we” is one of the most mis-used words, especially in the context of marriage. My wife is constantly trying to get me to use that word to describe who pays for what. It’s not that I pay, it’s that WE pay. No. While it is true that, from a legal POV, the money I earn belongs to both of us, that does not change the fact that I am the one who earns it. That does not devalue the work she does, it simply accurately describes where the money we have comes from. In the same way that WE were never pregnant and WE never birthed 4 children – SHE was, SHE did – I pay for almost everything.
My wife is not a stay at home parent – she works half-time – but her salary is about 1/20 of mine. I value her immensely for who she is and what she does – but that does not change where our money comes from.
Why does it matter, Carrie? It matters because there is a huge psychological difference in entitlement when “we” are paying for something versus when “he/she” is. There is both more care before making the purchase, and more gratitude afterward. I express gratitude (and subsequently happiness) to and for my wife for doing what she does. Because I acknowledge that SHE does it. Not me, not we. Gratitude leads to mindfulness, leads to maintenance of love and happiness. I know that you worry that when the word “we” is not used that the husband shows lack of gratitude for his wife, but I think it’s the opposite – that she lacks gratitude for him. Gratitude shouldn’t be fake – we should appreciate each other for what we actually do, what we actually contribute, not what we don’t.
Evan Marc Katz says
What he said. I woke up thinking “WE didn’t get pregnant” and was going to post it until I saw this.
Like you, I am extremely grateful for my wife and probably thank her and tell her I love her 5x more than she tells me. But then, I’m a words of affirmation guy and she’s an acts of service woman.
Always astounded how people see fit to lecture me about my own marriage when both my wife and I are very happy with each other and our dynamic. Must be what happens when you take a few lines from a blog post and twist them to their most negative interpretation.
Jeremy says
Sorry for the double post, but this is something I feel so strongly about. I think it is important to give each spouse their due, to express gratitude for what they provide. I try to thank my wife regularly for all that she does – “thank you for taking care of the kids, for arranging their schedules, tending to all their needs, taking care of the household duties, preparing, organizing, creating a home.” Perhaps I don’t say it enough, but I make an effort to say it often. But my wife pretty much never thanks me for what I provide. Oh, if I do something different and specific she’ll thank me, but not for what I do on a regular basis. “Thank you for my home, my car, my clothes, my hot running water. My ability to live my life as I chose, my ability to not work full-time in a paying job so that I can do what I’d rather do and be home much of the time.” She doesn’t thank me for these things because she thinks of those things as a “WE” job. If “we” earn the money, why should “I” be grateful? In fact, one time my wife seemed happy and I asked what she was thinking about. She said, “I was just thinking about my life, and how grateful I am for it.” And I replied “that’s great that you feel that way. But can I ask – grateful to WHOM?” She was first surprised by the question, and then angered by it. The anger angered me.
Let’s please not mis-use the word “we”. Let’s give credit where credit is due – there’s more than enough credit on both sides.
Jeremy says
@Evan, it’s an availability bias thing, I think. Mrs Happy just posted that thinking about how all the emotional labour is on her makes her angry and resentful, and that she is reading a book on the subject which is making her even more angry and resentful and perhaps sapping her libido. She should read a book about being a man who supports his family after she’s done this one to balance things out. Because I guarantee that few are the marriages where the woman does all the work. She just does all the work that she sees. She sees what’s available; doesn’t see what she doesn’t see.
When we were leaving our Florida vacation a few months ago, my wife was packing the suitcases and was upset. “Why are you upset,” I asked, “Didn’t we just have a wonderful vacation?” “Yes,” she replied, “I’m just pissed off because all the work of the vacation is on me. I was the one who packed the suitcases, planned what we needed, what all the kids would need, all the logistics, and here I am packing the suitcases again. Why is it all on me?”
“Is that what you think,” I asked, “is that how you feel? Do you remember how I offered to pack the suitcases but you refused because only you know how to do it? How I offered to pack them up just now but you don’t like how I fold? Did you consider who PAID for this vacation?”
“Yeah, you paid for it,” she said, “but what’s that to you. It just takes a minute to write a cheque.”
“A minute to write the cheque,” I replied, “and how long to earn the number on it?”
Shit, the availability bias is a bitch. The more we hear about the overworked wife, the less we acknowledge what we don’t hear about.
Marika says
Carrie
This post, this question, is about money and who pays for what. I have the utmost respect for stay at home mothers and re-read the post to find the part where Evan was disrespectful towards them. He wasn’t. By working full-time and taking all of that responsibility he is respecting the role of the stay at home mother. If you’re familiar with his work more broadly you’d know he sings his wife’s praises often. I recall elsewhere he talked about his job being 9-5 and hers being 24/7.
This is just one post about money you misunderstood as something disrespectful. Shame.
Jeremy
From memory, and I could be wrong, Mrs Happy makes more money than her husband. So she can probably relate way more to how you feel than the numerous examples you give of your wife’s availability bias.
Jeremy says
Hi Marika. It’s not about who makes more or who does what. It’s about one spouse believing that they do ever so much more than 50% of the total. Whether that person is male or female, a caregiver or a breadwinner, doesn’t really matter. In such a situation, either the person is legitimately doing more than their fair share (in which case the marital responsibilities need to be renegotiated), or are not but are instead mired in bias. The word “we” encourages such bias because it obscures who does what.
My wife would tell you that I often complain about financial stresses. But what she wouldn’t tell you is that I believe myself to be doing all the work in our marriage. Because I don’t. I don’t go out with groups of men who discuss how their spouses are child-like, don’t read books to make me feel resentful and less libidinous. Don’t claim that the work I see is all the work there is, and that I’m doing all of it. Don’t claim that I need my wife to use the word “we” in all that she does in order to make myself feel more powerful.
Adrian says
Hi Jeremy,
You said, “I offered to pack the suitcases but you refused because only you know how to do it? How I offered to pack them up just now but you don’t like how I fold?”
Why do you think people do this? Is it conscious? Are they doing it so they CAN later on throw it in our face?…
If so does that mean they really secretly enjoy the complaining and satisfaction of feeling like they do more than the actual help you offer?
Marika says
Hi Jeremy
I don’t know Mrs Happy’s marriage at all, but I think we need to consider the possibility this may be the case: “in such a situation, either the person is legitimately doing more than their fair share (in which case the marital responsibilities need to be renegotiated), or are not but are instead mired in bias”
I’m glad you wrote that. I’m glad you do recognize sometimes that may be how it is. That it’s not necessarily always about bias. Mrs Happy (and the OP in this post) may have legitimate cause for complaint. As you do.
Jeremy says
Adrian, I think there are a few reasons for the behavior I described, none of which are nefarious (throwing it in faces later).
First, controlling and perfecting one’s surroundings is a protective mechanism against shame and emotional dysregulation. See Brene Brown’s book “Daring Greatly” for more on this. Essentially, when a person is feeling down about themselves or worries about being judged and shamed, one way they might protect themselves is to make their lives look too perfect to be judged – judged by themselves, judged by others. Fold the laundry just so, decorate the house just so…look and be perfect so no one can accuse you of not being good enough. Especially not yourself. This is insidious and common.
Second, it relates to the ways people might want to be loved, what they want to be valued for. My wife has a particularly hard time with this, because she feels that I do a lot and that she sometimes can’t compete. Even though it’s not a competition, even though I try to make her understand that she is enough, more than enough, to me. She wants to show me that there are areas I need her for, areas I can’t do as well, things she needs to do because if I do them I’ll be worse off – things I’m better off having her for. She doesn’t understand that I am an abstract-oriented personality – that her attitude is more important to me than the concrete things she does, especially the nit-picky details that don’t interest me. But it takes an abstract-oriented person to understand this….like almost all the people on this blog.
Third and finally, some people are not able to attain inner peace with disorderly surroundings. They see a sock on the floor and can’t concentrate on what’s on their mind, can’t relax. They see a room full of clutter and want to throw out everything they haven’t used in the last month. Others (ahem) are completely unaffected internally by their surroundings, and might prefer a bit of disorder. We think in webs, not stacks. So to such people (cough) it makes no sense to fold laundry that you’ll just pack up and launder when you get home. You just stuff it in the suitcase at the end of the trip as fast as you can. Some people would find that vexing, even disturbing, to their inner peace.
Mrs Happy says
It’s so entertaining reading about myself on this blog, and randomly coming across my name. Makes me giggle.
I don’t know if I’m mired in bias. At this point I cannot step outside the situation to objectively evaluate that.
Yesterday in the wake of having, the night before, flown back to Sydney and arrived home in the dark evening, with a child with food restrictions who couldn’t be catered for at airports, to find my husband hadn’t made either she or I dinner, and it was way past her bed and dinner time, I was furious. Just livid. It was the lack of thought which riled me, his inability to think, hmm, they’ll arrive x pm, not having eaten, why don’t I have something prepared and they can wolf it down before we put our overtired young daughter to bed. I told him I was angry, then while I put my young son down to sleep, and instead of putting my daughter down as he should have, he crashed pots around cooking dinner- a too-late dinner she (asleep) couldn’t eat by the time it was cooked, and I was too furious to eat. Plus, weirdly, I didn’t really want dinner, I’d eaten stacks of choc on the plane – I wanted him to have thought of us, and put effort and time and mental bandwidth into imagining how hungry and tired we’d be, and, before we arrived and lots more had to be done, prepared dinner.
The next day (yest) he sent a subject line ‘grumpy’ email (me or him grumpy, I didn’t know or care). I lost it. In the context of reading Hartley’s aforementioned ‘Fed up’ book, I wrote a list, at 3pm, of the things I’d done for others (kids, family, friends, random strangers in the park), just that day since 5.30am waking. It totalled 33 points. (By the end of day it’d be 50-60 points easily.) My return email to him ended with a bitchy comment about how so far by 3pm, he’d just, for others, a) minded the kids until 8am while I exercised, then b) gone to work (i.e. 2 points to my 33), and so far, on his paid work day and my stay-home-with-kids-it’s-school-holidays-I’m-not-at-paid-work-today, he’d earned $800, and I’d earned, doing just 2 work tasks in virtual non-existent time between playdates, school mum socialising, park visits, tantrums, food prep, grocery shopping, housework, etc., $6000. I explained I was thus not inclined to keep to the social mould of doing these 60 things a day, being his ‘helpmate’, so as to free up his mind space for the importance of serious male breadwinning and career progression, as society scripts; or much fussed if he was ‘grumpy’.
I’m exhausted. I think I earn more, do more, give more, and then am expected by society to give again and again and again, to everybody, including be a “better” wife to my husband, while hiding how that makes me feel, and presenting an attractive, polite, and socially acceptable front, and I’m over it.
I also never get “hey thanks for working your teens and 20’s away into the nightmare they were, so we can now all live this life of utter luxury” sentence from anyone in my family. My earning potential is all taken completely for granted, as is the assumption it is everyone’s money. My immediate and extended family didn’t know me then (teens and 20’s) so didn’t see what it all cost me. And it is their money – if my kids didn’t exist, I’d return to my preferred, much more interesting and stimulating, but much lower paid, career path. So I know exactly how J/CB feels. And I’ve always been irritated by the “we are pregnant” BS sentence, so I’m very glad to find some kindred spirits on that one too.
As you can see, the book IS riling me up.
Evan Marc Katz says
Mrs. “Happy”: I feel for you. I don’t have any answers since it’s not your boyfriend but your husband. From the outside, I don’t like the dynamic at all and think you guys need therapy. It’s entirely possible you married the wrong man. You don’t have to be stuck for life. Finally, keep in mind that two wrongs don’t make a right. Your 33 point list sounds a lot like this guy who tallied up all the reasons his wife refused to have sex with him…and got pilloried by women on the internet for doing so.
Mrs Happy says
Evan @ 196.1, good points, and do I realise all that, and I’m not proud of the 33 point list or my email’s ending sentence, but people do things when heated which aren’t always wise.
It’s interesting to think about how it’s more culturally acceptable that he be grumpy because I yelled at him, than I be angry because I think I do too much, and how socially unacceptable and uncomfortable my 33 point list is. It’s another facet of the emotional toll we place on women – be happy, considerate, polite and pleasant, even when you’re feeling extremely irritated and overburdened. He was partly grumpy because I didn’t praise him for cleaning the house while I was away. I saw the clean house at the same time I realised there was no dinner cooked, so thanks didn’t stand a chance. My thinking was also, it was his and family mess in our house, I had no desire to praise him just for doing some of the general housework that needs doing, I don’t get or expect praise for doing general housework, also don’t see it as a job I should own thus thank him for doing.
I think I’m probably allowed to write my 33 point list?; it illustrated my point and summarily replied to his “what do I need to do to help and prevent you being angry” email to me. Really I am in control of my own emotions (or not) and own that anger-control job. But generally what he needs to do, is own half of the 60 points on the list, and not leave all the mental load of running a home and family to me. And I think most men don’t even realise there is a 60-point mental list, every single day, even holidays, even weekends, necessary to ensure the smooth running of a family, and that it takes a huge intellectual bandwidth cost and energy toll. I essentially have a lower functional IQ because of all this mundane stuff in my head each day, and that is a loss to me, which I actively feel, and which helps prevent me doing something big I want to personally do, and getting further in my career.
Anyway, so I gave him one 33-point list covering 9.5 hours only in my head. Considered it education regarding the average wife’s mind.
He did not marry a stay-at-home helpmate woman, he married a successful senior career type, so he knew what he was getting into. He never expected me to do the 60-point list daily, he like most men (and myself) never realised it would spring into existence once the kids were born.
I was sort of trying to compare him not even thinking of cooking us dinner, with all the things I think about, to do for others, all the time. It would be impossible for me to fail to prepare dinner for half my family upon their evening return from travelling, so I had a difficult time even understanding his mind, and this often occurs – something incredibly obvious to me, just doesn’t occur to him, and I find it bewildering and annoying. But it happens generally with others too, so I’ve learned to live with it. I’d be occasionally impatient with anyone I lived with.
And the harsh fact is, the marital tradeoff is usually, man earns most of the money, woman does most/all the other stuff; because I have to do both, as does every woman who earns more, it’s sometimes frustrating.
To his credit he is the most involved father I’ve ever witnessed, and a man who truly keeps trying, a bit too much really, and is in many other ways, 33-point list aside, a good fit for me. I’m not an easy partner to have. He wants therapy, I’ve been batting the suggestion away, because I can predict the steps which will be suggested, and I’ve little left to give.
When we find a replacement cleaner and housekeeper I can give the household part of the mental and task load to her, and I’ll be less burdened.
Anyway to the blog readers I apologise for my venting.
Jeremy says
Dear Mrs Happy.
I understand you, my friend. I understand your frustration, your anger. I understand what you did, why you did it. It is hard, so hard, when we’re so exhausted, when we’ve done so much – ALWAYS done so much, always watched the world and others, wondering how they do so little. We take pride in what we do, the burdens we carry that others can’t…and then feel taken advantage of. Because while we might think that others will look at us and learn how they should behave, instead others look at us and become accustomed to having things done for them by us – the exact opposite of what we intended. Am I in the ballpark?
I have no answers for you. I don’t know how much of what you’re experiencing is bias and how much is legit. I expect there’s some of both, but I don’t know the ratio. I do know a couple of things to consider, though, that I hope might help. A story:
My brother believes his wife is a waste of space. Harsh, and he’d never admit it overtly, but that’s how he feels. He earns 5x what she does, works longer and harder, and she does no household tasks and few emotional tasks. She was brought up to believe that cooking and cleaning are menial tasks unfit for a modern woman, and so my brother comes home after gruelling days at work at 9pm, makes his own dinner, checks that the kids have eaten something, and makes their meals/lunches for the following day. And he feels much like you do – taken advantage of by a parasite. And yet…….and yet one time his wife DID try to make him dinner. Spent a Sunday cooking and preparing. And when she served him the food she’d made, he did nothing but criticize. “This soup is too bland.” “This chicken is disgusting.” “This cake tastes like ass, burn the recipe.” That was years ago. He still complains that she never cooks for him, and I ask him what he expected. If you slap someone down when they make an effort, don’t expect further efforts. You may be frustrated that she never cooks, but if you want her to cook you gotta praise the hell out of the effort to encourage more effort – as painful as the praise may be to you, it’s an investment in the future! If you want to grow a garden, EW, you gotta plant some seeds, water them, and sometimes feed them bullshit 🙂
You made a list of all the things you do, you earn more money, you’re reading a book that’s feeding your confirmation bias. How much is bias, how much is real? A suggestion – sit down and make another list – a list of what your husband has done this week. And don’t think of “go to work” as one thing. When I go to work, I help 30-40 people every day, deal with staff issues, deal with financial issues, etc. If my wife were to make her own list and write “he went to work” as just 1 thing, she’d be doing me an injustice. If you can’t write such a list because you don’t know what he does during the day, ask him to help you. Tell him that you’re trying to overcome your bias, trying to take his perspective, and you need his help to understand him better. If, having crafted this list, you still believe your marriage is unfair, a re-negotiation of tasks might be in order. And, unfair as it is, you will likely have to be the captain of the renegotiation because you’re the one who knows what has to be done. He doesn’t, and it sounds like he isn’t intuitive (like most men are not). If you spell it out, he’ll likely do it. Try not to be resentful for having to spell it out. Because even though I know that spelling it out is more emotional work for you, is unfair for you to have to do, it is the way out of the quandary – the way to be able to legitimately make lists that better balance. I wish that for you, happiness and balance.
Jeremy says
Oh, and 1 other thing, Mrs H. One needs to be realistic when re-allocating responsibilities – a person will never do, in the long-term, a task they care nothing at all for. My 3 year-old goes to sleep earlier than the other kids and insists on sleeping with her door open. I must have told the older kids to be quiet umpteen times when they go up to bed so as not to wake her, but it never sticks. “Thump thump thump thump…CRASH!!!…Click!….Lights….Buzzz…..(from other room) “Whaaaaaa”. Drives me nuts. But as often as I explain to them to be quiet, to turn the knob of their door before closing it, to wait until the door is closed before clicking on the lights – they just don’t do it. ‘Cause they don’t care. I live with it ‘cause I can’t change it…..accepting that I can’t change it gives me some peace with it.
People think differently. Some people naturally prioritize others, others themselves. Some people think in stacks, others in webs. Look at your job description, “senior executive” – a person who thinks in stacks would picture a woman in a corner office, making money and bossing people around. A person who thinks in webs would picture a woman who spends her days decapitating the elderly. And given your childhood career ambition of “assassin,” it seems to fit the bill 😉
*BIG HUG*. The sun will set, and the sun will rise, and tomorrow will be a new day, full of possibility.
Adrian says
Hi Mrs. Happy,
Why did you just focus on what he didn’t do? Why not focus on what he did and tried to do?
Why not just leave him if it’s that bad? (This is where Jeremy jumps out and condemns me for even suggesting divorce or you say oh no our marriage is great).
But I just personally feel like if someone reacts as STRONGLY as you did to a mistake and if someone throws it in my face that they MAKE MORE, DO MORE and then refuses to get marital help… Then I wouldn’t want to be with a person like that.
You said once he knew you were upset about him not making food he tried to make it. You DIDN’T say he got angry or he argued, he went and tried to correct his mistake… YOU didn’t accept it. You said he wanted you to acknowledge he cleaned the house… YOU thought it wasn’t even worth mentioning.
You said he sent an email that had the sentence “what do I need to do to help and prevent you being angry” Again he reached out and you SMACKED it down! Then let him know that you have 33 points more than he does and he doesn’t even make a fraction of what you do financially.
Again I know I will be attacked by the other commenters or even Evan for this but that doesn’t sound like someone I would want to with. There is obviously an unspoken feeling of I am the more important one in this relationship.
The fact that he suggest counseling lets me know that this is not some one time or rare occurrence.
Jeremy says
Adrian, I wouldn’t smack you down for bringing up divorce, I just think that divorce should be the last option after all else was considered, not the 1st or 2nd thing suggested. “Help me, doc, I’ve tried NOTHING and I’m all out of ideas!”
I agree with the rest of your post, though. I wrote above that so much of my wife’s psychology, all the extra emotional labour she takes on, is because she’s trying to be my “equal.” She looks at what I do and judges herself negatively, feels shame, tries to compensate by building invulnerability armor – control, perfect, numb. I try so hard to tell her that she is enough. More than enough. I don’t need her to match me, I need her to complement me – and she does. I don’t want her to do more, I want her to be happy and to help me be happy. But being happy requires one to overcome one’s invulnerability armor, the armor protecting us from shame – to throw out the numbing, the control. Not so easy, because the shame lurks beneath.
I wonder sometimes how I would feel if I married a woman who earned much more than I did, whose mind worked faster than mine, who was better than me in all the ways I consider to be masculine? Who tries to value me as a man for my comfort qualities and dad potential, but who (I fear) perceives me as less than. As not enough. How would I erect barriers against my shame, how would I protect my pride? And how would I deal with the fallout when I try to lower the barriers and get slapped down for again not being enough? Would that be better or worse than being the woman in that situation, the one who feels all the work is on her? Close call, I think. The solution, if there is one, is for each partner to understand the shame of the other, the barriers each one create. The barriers that can perhaps be overcome through love and mutual care, but not through anger and blame.
S. says
@ Jeremy #198
Your post resonated with me and I’m not even married. But I think it goes to what long-term relationships are about. Even non-romantic relationships. They’re about compromise and what you can live with. (Yes, love too, but also this other stuff that most don’t discuss much.)
It is hard, so hard, when we’re so exhausted, when we’ve done so much – ALWAYS done so much, always watched the world and others, wondering how they do so little. We take pride in what we do, the burdens we carry that others can’t…and then feel taken advantage of. Because while we might think that others will look at us and learn how they should behave, instead others look at us and become accustomed to having things done for them by us – the exact opposite of what we intended.
It is so hard. And I get tired of spelling it out. All day at work and then I can’t imagine doing the same at home too. Only way I’ve dealt with it is by just pouring some of my own love and care on me. Going somewhere where I’m taken care of. Whether it’s visiting my mom more often, getting a pedicure or acupuncture, just going somewhere where I don’t have to direct someone what to do.
Like you, I’m not sure of the answers. Mrs. Happy is doing so much it seems weird to praise someone who seems to be doing so little in comparison. But we haven’t heard Mr. Happy’s side which is a fair point.
If you slap someone down when they make an effort, don’t expect further efforts. You may be frustrated that she never cooks, but if you want her to cook you gotta praise the hell out of the effort to encourage more effort – as painful as the praise may be to you, it’s an investment in the future! If you want to grow a garden, EW, you gotta plant some seeds, water them, and sometimes feed them bullshit
This could be why I’m not in a relationship. I’m just not about bullshit. But that said, I’m not about toughlove, either. And there seems to be very little space in between.
I hope Mrs. Happy and folks like her get a break. Maybe they have the patience to grow a garden. I will say I never thought that’s what marriage would be. I thought one would get a true partner, true help. Whatever people figure out, I hope they are happy.
Good point about therapy. Like in depression or with meditation, it’s when you have the least bit of energy is when you need to get more help. It’s counter-intuitive. You just want to stay in and rest. That’s not gonna do it, though. Sometimes just trying to make that effort to change-even while exhausted–is exactly the shift needed. Not directing this to anyone specific, it seems to be true of many circumstances.
how would I deal with the fallout when I try to lower the barriers and get slapped down for again not being enough?
Sigh. You are being quite compassionate to folks who try which I respect. The difficulty is deciding who I want. I know how I am. When I get slapped down for not being enough–and I do–eventually I get up. Again and again and again. There is no survival for me otherwise. That’s who I want to be. The question is is that who I want my husband to be, and if he has to be in that way? Maybe his way of survival is softer, but just as tenacious? I dunno. I think I do want someone to be the one to get up again and again just so I can somehow rest. Your question requires someone very tired to put that exhaustion aside to see the shame and vulnerability of another. I don’t understand why a person won’t get up. Why they don’t keep trying. But maybe they are but it’s so difficult to see it as trying. A couple has to be able to genuinely see and feel that in their partner.
TLDR: It’s complicated.
Jeremy says
@S., “why don’t they keep trying?” Some do, some don’t. I do. But getting kicked in the balls is different than getting kicked in the leg. You get kicked in the leg it hurts and you walk it off. You get kicked in the balls and you roll around and vomit. We are just more sensitive in some spots than others.
Some men step up and do what needs to be done, ego notwithstanding. Some men think they do, but have an inkling that their wife’s list of “what needs to be done” does not resemble their own. Often, men stop playing the game when they discover they can’t win. When they discover that no matter what they do, they’ll never be good enough. Because while they can think of 2-3 things they might do better, their wife has a list of F-ing 33 with another 66 by bedtime. That is overwhelming, a total non-starter. A gap of 33 or 66 or 99 can not be bridged. Start from the start. Start with the basics. Decide what is important and what isn’t, ’cause I guarantee that not all those 33 things objectively needed to be done (unlike the dinner that should have been).
It is indeed complicated. The only way to resolve complicated problems is to break them down into manageable bites. And someone needs to step the F up and do that. I wouldn’t ask anyone to do what I’ve not done myself.
Mrs Happy says
Adrian,
you don’t leave a marriage which involves young children because you’re disappointed with your spouse, or they can’t think or plan as well as you can. Not a single marriage would stand the distance. Someone is always better at every job, and disappointment is part of marriage.
You are right, he tried to rectify his mistake. It just gets old when 10 years in, a person repeatedly can’t see the obvious, and has to be repeatedly told. It’s like dealing with an intellectually retarded person, without the sympathy I’d have for such an individual, and it’s annoying because all the things he can’t see to do, I then have to do, and I’m already overburdened.
Each night, after I’ve shopped for ingredients, menu planned, cooked dinner, served it, cajoled the kids into eating (this last alone a 90 min thankless negotiating/screaming task), my husband cleans up the plates/dishes. Each night he leaves the leftover meat (e.g. chicken casserole last night) out on the dinner table, while he does all the other plate clearing, dishwasher stacking, etc. So, meat, which should be refrigerated ASAP to minimise bacterial growth and future gastro infections, (I can feel CB shuddering from here) is left for 30+ minutes at (warm) room temperatures. I repeatedly remind him not to do this. I remind him multiple times a week, and have for 10 years. Would this annoy you? To have to state the obvious this often?
Why don’t I do the clean up job myself, you ask? Because it’s all he does housework-wise of an evening, it’s 1 task to my 20 that evening so far, and I don’t want to be one of those women who do everything because I can do it faster or better, because then I’ll be doing every single task except mow the lawn, catch the spiders, and get the big snakes out of the pool. And I don’t want to do every task, I want to do 50% of the tasks. (I do about 90%.)
It truly seems bleeding obvious to me, the meat should be the first thing put away. But he doesn’t notice it. It truly seemed obvious to me, our tired hungry daughter would need dinner on arrival, but he doesn’t think that through. The number of things which do not even flit through my husband’s mind truly astound me. And I didn’t appreciate any of this until after we married, because we didn’t live together until then.
There are limited alternatives. 1. Find a smarter husband – well, sure, and I’ve dated one man smarter than me, but didn’t like the rest of the package. Anyway too late, I had kids with this one. 2. Don’t get irritated by the tasks not done. Please tell me how not to be irritated by idiocy. I’ve spent 40 years on this planet astounded at idiocy. Moving along. 3. Hire someone else to do most tasks I don’t want to do and he doesn’t see. Yes I usually have a housekeeper but am between help at present. 4. Break up with him and leave my children fatherless and be a single mum because I’m often incredulous at the lack of just basic thinking. You’ve got to be kidding, there’s no way I’ll subject my children to that disadvantage just because my husband is less organised than me.
Yes he tried to rectify his error, and in doing so actually worsened things – him crashing pots prevented the kids getting to sleep. (This too is obvious to me – i.e. don’t noisily crash pans while over-excited kids are trying to sleep.) He is a really nice person who is always trying, and just often getting it wrong, he bumbles along, a lovely, generous, kind man and great father, who I love, but who is incredibly frustrating to live with.
Look, I’m a difficult partner because I see these errors he makes dozens of times a week, and I sometimes remark on them, so I’m not a fun, easy, no worries spouse. I just don’t know how to be okay, fun, easy, with giving my children food poisoning.
I don’t think I’m the more important one in the marital relationship. But Adrian you make a good point when you generally infer that I’m not a pleasant partner when I’m this angered by situations. Should try not to show him my anger, should I hide from my spouse how I really feel, should I suppress emotions? I don’t know. Any advice from the group here on that one is welcomed.
He asked in the email how to help. My 33-point list was me telling him how to help. It was not intended to smack him down, as you said. Usually I tell him exactly how to help, but it rarely changes the bigger picture, so the 33-point list was just me telling him, in another way, this is what it takes to run this family for only a 9 hour period, and I do this all day every day, and want you to do half of it.
Adrian, I think I focused on what he didn’t rather than did do, because I don’t care as much about effort as I do about outcomes.
The money thing is a whole other can of worms, and pertains to Evan’s blog mainly in that Evan tells women to consider marrying men who make less. Those women would be wise to consider such men make less often because they are less quick, less able generally, to plan, research, organise, evaluate, perform, think, work, achieve, than the said woman. Those women will need to be okay with what that realistically looks like when you run a household together. Thankfully my husband is not amotivated, selfish or lazy, features I suspect occur frequently in the group of men who make very little money.
Adrian I think you and Evan are right and counselling is a good idea. It is of course yet another thing I’ll have to do, but I know you’re right.
I feel like I should change my name, but it wouldn’t be fair to regular contributors who aren’t reading this section.
Marika says
Hey Jer Jer
There are definitely those people who you can’t please and nothing is ever done right. But, surely, surely making food for a tired, hungry little girl, so she doesn’t go to bed starving, is a no- brainer? I don’t get the sense Mrs Happy is a everything-has-to-be-folded perfectly type. So even a gluten-free toastie would probably have sufficed. Anyway, it wasn’t even for her – it was for his daughter.
Does a person ever stop trying when it comes to feeding their child?
Ehhh. It’s making me angry just thinking about it..
Emily, to says
Jeremy,
Decide what is important and what isn’t, ’cause I guarantee that not all those 33 things objectively needed to be done (unlike the dinner that should have been).
I agree. I know mothers are very busy and I’m not in any way undermining what they do, but there are people who create work for themselves. It’s a badge of honor and identity for them to be constantly busy. Being at a child’s weekly soccer games? Probably important. Sitting through the thrice-weekly soccer practices? Not necessary. (I knew a woman who attended all four of her child’s weekly soccer events and complained about it.)
S. says
@ Jeremy
But why is one the balls and one the leg? Just because someone keeps getting up doesn’t mean they weren’t kicked in the balls. Sometimes you vomit, roll, over, vomit some more, clean it up, and then get up again. Lather, rinse. Repeat. I certainly have been kicked in all my sensitive parts this lifetime. And I happen to be rather sensitive. And I have not toughened up, thus the dislike of toughlove. I get up anyway. It’s get up or die, in my case. And somehow my body keeps on living, so I figured I’d get the rest of me to as well.
But do I need to be with someone like that? Ah, there’s the question. It’s just so hard to pick us both up time and time again. I just barely have the strength sometimes for me. Some women also have that for a child. We can’t always do that for the life partner too. And I love me some sweet kind men, I do. But they gotta pick themselves up. I’m not even saying all the time! But sometimes, goodness. All of our balls hurt sometimes.
Because while they can think of 2-3 things they might do better, their wife has a list of F-ing 33 with another 66 by bedtime. That is overwhelming,
That is overwhelming. But didn’t they decide it together? And sometimes life is overwhelming and you didn’t decide on it. Someone gets sick, you have a child with exceptional needs and while that is diagnosed, a parent also has dementia. This is life. It is sometimes overwhelming. You don’t just give up because the list is long, goodness. You sit down together and divide it up. I thought folks who married were compatible and before marrying figured out how to communicate and problem solve. Evan has a point there about marrying the wrong man.
And yes! Both need to step the F up and figure it out. And there are gentle, respectful ways to do that. But both need to acknowledge there are issues and figure out some solutions. Otherwise, it just sounds really miserable.
And about the inkling? It’s not a game to win or lose. It’s about a harmonious partnership for the rest of this family’s life. A person can’t just shrug and say they can’t win. What did they think marriage would be about? Winning? What did they think their responsibilities would be? People need to compare lists, before, during, and after marriage. I’m not feeling that generous, but I suspect the partner who is probably doing less doesn’t want to know more than an inkling because they don’t really want to do more because as you said, they don’t feel it’s necessary. I’m not sure how to reconcile this. With roommates, yes, sometimes I let go of my standards of cleaning for instance, since I didn’t want to be cleaning up after them forever. But for a marriage? You have to be able to live with one another’s flaws.
put effort and time and mental bandwidth
It’s not what someone actually does, sometimes it’s about sharing the emotional labor. I’m not quite sure how you spell that out for someone step by step that you’ve been living with for years. You somehow figured stuff out and I have to hand it to you for that. You don’t explicitly say it often but you must really love your wife. 🙂
Jeremy says
S, “why is one the balls and one the leg?” Good question. My wife has occasionally complained to me about some aspect of my being or behaviour. One day I was rude. One day I had bad breath. One day I didn’t help out enough with the kids. The complaints stung, but I got over them – behave better, floss and mouthwash, take the kids and send her to the spa. But it would be an entirely different animal if she complained to me that she thought I was too stupid, useless, and that she made more money in a few hours of vacation than I did in a week of work. That would be a kick in the balls, a direct blow to my self-esteem as a man and husband, rather than just a bit of constructive criticism. I might still get up after such a kick, but it’d be harder. Much harder.
Mrs Happy, am I only CB when I annoy you? Is that my superpower today? I get your frustration. You’d think by now he’d have learned, at least learned to put the meat away. I wonder what’s on his mind instead? What’s he thinking about? I’d put the meat away because I fear gastro, as you know. But then, I also fear large spiders and would likely jump on a plane to Canada if I saw one of your hand-sized Aussie monsters, or large snakes in a pool. Is he just happy-go-lucky confident because he doesn’t think of the future like we do? That’s tough because it doesn’t change. I sometimes envy people like that, wonder if I’d be happier lobotomized….
Jeremy says
Oh, and S., I DO really love my wife. She is so very worthy of love. But while that certainly helped me figure it out, the other thing that did was patience. I am a patient person, it’s what I do for a living, it’s how beautiful systems get built, how complex plans come to fruition.
When I built my reef aquarium (a hobby of mine), you start by doing your research. The ecosystem, the plumbing, the electrical, the lighting, the biology. You build the tank and stand, mix the water, test the salinity and pH and temperature. Add the sand, cultivate the bacteria and then the plankton. Add the invertebrates. Add the fishes in the correct order so as to allow the weaker, smaller ones to establish themselves before adding the aggressive ones. Monitor, dose, and if you do it right you end up with a glorious ecosystem that will fascinate you for years. Glorious and happy-making….a job done right. Patience.
Adrian says
Hi Mrs. Happy,
For the record I actually agree with you.
After reading your comment twice I notice that you list many practical reasons to stay with your husband, but not once did you say because you are in love with him… It sounds like you love him but you are NOT in love with him.
I’m curious if you are more like the women you tell us about than you realize? You know the women you always mention who are “only” with their husbands because they don’t want to lose their life style.
I get it, kids are important and you want them to have a father, but what good is them having a father around when simultaneously they are watching their mother slowly deteriorate?
I mean right now if you found out that he was cheating or if he wanted a divorce which would be more hurt: your ego or your heart? Would your first thought be, “I’m losing the man I love” Or “I don’t want to be a single mom/I don’t want my kids to be without a father/what will people think?”
Only you can answer these questions, but for me I can’t see staying in a relationship like that. I mean if you have been telling him the same things for 10 years, I doubt he will change…
I say just count down until your youngest is 18 THEN divorce him and find yourself a hot young pool boy! (^_^)
Mrs Happy says
CB,
CB is a term of endearment. I wasn’t annoyed with you – surely you realise that. I can return to J. You already noted I dropped the ‘dear’ – even tho my fingers itch to type it at the start of every post to anyone specific – to increase your comfort.
The income comment would hurt you (and many men) because you place your value to your family in how much you can financially support them. It is not unknown to my husband how much I earn on a workday, let alone a day off, since we share accounts, and he does some of my invoicing; I wasn’t telling him anything new. The income comment was mainly to reinforce that I don’t see my primary role as a homemaker or mental list load bearer. If he earned all/most of the money, I’d happily do the 60 mental load tasks without whining much, as well as most of the childcare and housework, because those would be my contributions. Marriages with more traditional role divisions are happier marriages, as your research would have told you, and the sense of more equal contributions is probably a big part of why that is so. A married man earning my salary would do about 1% of the childcare, housework and home/family mental load that I do; his main contribution would be just the salary, because he would have a wife to do the rest. I don’t get a wife.
Adrian,
to answer your questions, though I’m reluctant to bore the readership with more personal details so think I should stop soon:
I don’t talk about my tender feelings for my husband over the internet because they’re not for public consumption (plus I was having a whinge, so negativity was trumping tenderness). I love him but am not in giddy love with him, because giddy love wears off over time.
I don’t need a partner for maintenance of our comfortable lifestyle, or status, as I have both even without him. (I’d be richer lifelong if we divorced now, because we’d halve our current asset pool, then I’d have a few decades of high earning all for myself.)
Of course my husband won’t change; that’s marriage – putting up with a spouse’s annoying traits for the greater benefit.
Hot young pool boys do absolutely nothing for me because their IQ is low, and if it’s just about sex, men in their 20’s are less talented in bed than older men.
If my husband and I split up, I’d deteriorate faster, and be more overwhelmed, because he does do some things which make my life easier, e.g. this morning we all cycled to the local netball courts, and he pumped up and oiled all the bike tyres and chains etc, before we set off, then he cycled back home to pick up a forgotten netball, then when my 6 y o went on strike half way home too tired to scoot any more, and lay on the ground refusing to move, crying about being hungry, my husband cycled home, got a car, made a cheese sandwich, drove back, fed our son, and drove tired complaining boy home, while I cycled back with our daughter. One quick example of one quick family outing which would’ve been much, much, harder as a single mum, mainly because in typing this I realise my children are complete marshmallows with no grit.
I wouldn’t break up with him if he cheated on me. I think. Because we have kids.
If he wanted a divorce, in my current state of mind, my first thought would probably be, oh great, more things to organise and do.
Adrian, once you marry and have kids your attitude to what you’ll put up with in a relationship will change. This happens to most people.
Jeremy says
We all love to intuit Adrian, but the key to successful intuiting is to put one’s self into not only the other’s situation, but also their personality. Idealists have difficulty doing this, especially with rationals. Young people have difficulty doing this, especially with people of more experience, age, and responsibility.
Idealists have the hardest time with marriage of all the types except dopaminergic explorers. Their ideas of how things ‘should’ be are often impossible to reconcile with reality. Their maturity comes when they realize that their problem is with their ‘shoulds’ and not with the world. We all have some element of this in our psyche. That was not directed at Mrs Happy.
Jeremy says
I have way over-posted to this thread, because I so feel for you and want to help, Mrs Happy. I have one final thought that I hope you will read.
Of all the advice I can muster, the one key point is this – hire a new housekeeper/nanny ASAP. Let that be your singular focus, above all else right now. Let nothing else stand in your way. Because once all the crap is delegated away from you, once you have emotional breathing space, your equilibrium will restore itself. Any conversations and decisions you make with/about your husband before that will be heavily coloured by the bleakness you now feel. To have any hope for mutually successful resolution, that conversation will have to focus equally on each of you loving yourself and loving each other. If it’s just about each loving oneself, it will fail.
I employ a full-time nanny and part-time cleaner, even though my wife is home much of the time. I catered the food for my upcoming Passover seders, even though my wife was willing (and asked!) to cook. Because I know that if she does all that work, she will have no bandwidth for happiness, for love, for me. I will then get “grumpy” and she will wonder why the F I should be grumpy since she did all the work. A problem you can solve with money isn’t a problem, it’s an expense.
Tonight my people will ask the question “Why is this night different from all other nights?” Then we will answer that question. For you, I’d modify the question slightly – “Why should this night be different from all previous nights?” And then do what you’ve been doing all your life my friend, my personality-sister, solve the problem.
Emily, to says
Hi Mrs. Happy,
Don’t worry about posting about your issue too much. I think we are all learning from your posts.
Adrian, once you marry and have kids your attitude to what you’ll put up with in a relationship will change. This happens to most people.
When I read Adrian’s response to you, this was my first thought: But she has kids. It’s hard for those of us who don’t have kids to understand because our first thought to most situations that seem destined to stay the way they are is: Just leave. But you’d be ripping up the fabric of four peoples’ lives.
I love him but am not in giddy love with him, because giddy love wears off over time.
Who is giddily in love after a couple of years? That wears off for everyone.
Hot young pool boys do absolutely nothing for me because their IQ is low, and if it’s just about sex, men in their 20’s are less talented in bed than older men.
When Adrian suggested the pool boy for you, I thought: I don’t think that’s Mrs. Happy’s thing. But I will disagree that older men are better. I remember being in my 20s and hooking up with a man in his early 40s to see if there was a difference. There wasn’t.
Adrian says
Hi Mrs. Happy, Jeremy, and Emily
Mrs. Happy said, “I don’t talk about my tender feelings for my husband over the internet because they’re not for public consumption”
I respect that, so the last thing I’ll say on the subject is this… You may want to ask yourself why you felt okay to go on and on with multiple paragraphs in multiple post about your husbands faults “publicly” but yet feel saying how much you love him is something the public shouldn’t know…
Emily said, “It’s hard for those of us who don’t have kids to understand because our first thought to most situations that seem destined to stay the way they are is: Just leave. But you’d be ripping up the fabric of four peoples’ lives.”
You’re right of course Emily. But I will say this, I remember being over my friends house when we were small when they had fights or when they were not talking, or when their was just general tension in the air. Years later they divorced when they youngest went to college. The kids were upset that the parents divorced while the parents were both (in my opinion) damaged from forcing themselves to stay together for the kids…
So… Yay! They sacrificed their mental and emotional well being and the kids got the great example of living in an environment of unhappiness. I guess everyone won!…
Placing your children’s happiness before your own is the MOST “selfish” thing that people treat as “selfless”. There is a difference between making sacrifices for their happiness and just completely abandoning your own happiness for theirs.
I’m not talking about your or Mrs. Happy Emily, but that mentality just triggers me. It’s like the people who fight and condemn others for having abortions but where are those same people when that single mother is struggling to feed, cloth, and support that child?
Jeremy said, ” Idealists have difficulty doing this, especially with rationals.”
I would like to know if I am an idealist or rational, or explore, or guardian. Any sites with good test you would recommend?
Is there a book you used to understand how each type acts in relationships?
Emily, to says
Big Adrian,
Placing your children’s happiness before your own is the MOST “selfish” thing that people treat as “selfless”. There is a difference between making sacrifices for their happiness and just completely abandoning your own happiness for theirs.
I see what you’re saying and I agree with it. While someone abandoning his/her own happiness for his kids’ happiness triggers you, someone prioritizing his own needs over his kids’ needs triggers me. I had a father who did that, an uncle who did that. It was first and foremost all about them and then their romantic relationships. Kids were third on the list, if that. So I do have respect for someone who is thinking of the impact their actions have on their children.
I would like to know if I am an idealist or rational, or explore, or guardian. Any sites with good test you would recommend?
I wonder what you are. I’m an idealist with a big chunk of explorer. You have to have some of the rational or guardian in you but maybe a little bit of idealist. And given your sexual proclivities, maybe a little bit of explorer. 🙂
Jeremy says
You aren’t a type Adrian you are a unique individual. Types don’t really exist ,which is why I don’t like recommending books about them. The books make it sound like these types are things that people are, rather than heuristics to help us think.
I find the types useful because I notice that some people tend to focus on things and experiences (the concrete) , while others focus more on ideas (the abstract). Of those who focus on ideas, there are those who focus on ideas that give them a sense of meaning and identity, and there are those who focus on what works in the real world. And then there are those who do both … And are usually deeply conflicted about that.
But personality tests are profoundly useless because they rely on us to report ourselves accurately, to know ourselves. How many people, even here on this blog, believe themselves to be rational but really are totally mired in how they believe the world ‘should’ be in their limited model, their tunnel vision? Rational or idealist? The last person to know is themselves.
My comment above simply meant that a person who focuses on shoulds can’t easily imagine the perspective of the person who doesn’t care one whit about what ‘should ‘ be, but only on what IS.
Adrian says
Hi Emily,
You said, “someone prioritizing his own needs over his kids’ needs triggers me.”
I COMPLETELY agree with you on this. That is why there has to be balance but it seems like people DO step-up and criticize parents who put their needs before their children but NO ONE steps up and says anything about parents sacrificing their own happiness for their children-it’s actually applauded.
Plus I operate under the motto of “don’t know love, can’t show love.” I truly believe that a person who doesn’t know how to love themselves, how to treat themselves right and how to walk away when they are being mistreated, that person (to me) will NOT be able to show “healthy” love to another person.
Obviously parents should focus on their children’s well-being and happiness but again I must ask, “can a miserable unhappy person raise children in a healthy happy environment?”
Emily would you want to date someone who came from such an environment where they genuinely believed that such an environment was normal and YOU were the one with a problem (or an idealist) because you saw their or their parents behavior as abnormal? Just look at all the push back Evan gets when he says healthy relationships don’t require work… People see him as abnormal because they are use to having to work hard to be happy in relationships (different from putting in effort)…. You know the saying, “relationships require work.”
… … …
You said,”And given your sexual proclivities, maybe a little bit of explorer.”
You’re silly and you know it (^_^).
Besides the new cool girl on the block/blog with the hip new nickname Mariks seems more of an explorer than me…. Sorry Marika but I’ve got to pass the sexual teasing buck onto you (^_^).
Lynx says
@Emily, to: “It was first and foremost all about them and then their romantic relationships. Kids were third on the list, if that.”
Am I your mom?! That’s exactly what my kids have experienced with their father.
@Adrian: I understand why you consider it to be a twisted kind of selfish for an unhappy couple to stay together for the kids, looking at it objectively. But real families are more complicated.
My parents ostensibly stayed together for my sibling and I, but in truth, if they had divorced, I don’t think they would have been any happier and we all would have taken a financial hit. After we left home, their relationship improved. While they were never a great love story, they trusted the other would be there through thick and thin. There is something to be said for loyalty in an indifferent world.
I did not separate from my kids’ father until they were in their early teens, and was their single, full-time mom throughout their high school years (they spent, at most, one week a year with their father — his choice, but the kids were fine with it). Despite everything, I wouldn’t have separated sooner because single parenting is really, really hard. And I had far more advantages compared to many single moms.
Probably the hardest part is feeling you must be the best role model you can be, ALL the time. You must ALWAYS be patient, consistent, set appropriate boundaries, delegate appropriate responsibility, follow through with appropriate consequences because they are biologically wired to rebel against their parents.
When another parent is there, even if they’re not the most engaged parent ever, you still get a reprieve every so often. When you have reached the absolute end of your patience, there’s someone to take the baton from you for a while.
That went long. Suffice it to say – divorcing with kids is not a straightforward decision.
Emily, to says
Big A,
NO ONE steps up and says anything about parents sacrificing their own happiness for their children-it’s actually applauded.
You’re right, and not to sound sexist, but it’s particularly applauded when women sacrifice.
Emily would you want to date someone who came from such an environment where they genuinely believed that such an environment was normal and YOU were the one with a problem (or an idealist) because you saw their or their parents behavior as abnormal?
I don’t understand what you’re asking me. But I am an idealist. I looked for the Brady Bunch in the family of every childhood friend I had. It doesn’t exist.
Besides the new cool girl on the block/blog with the hip new nickname Mariks seems more of an explorer than me
Oh, yeah. I hear Mariks is down for anything. 🙂 Her doppelganger Marika? Much more conservative. 🙂
Mrs Happy says
Thanks everyone. All very helpful. I’m taking most of the advice.
CB, I’m sure your specialty has a conference coming up in Sydney soon. I’ll take you and Mariks out to lunch. Adrian I almost offered you the same last summer but then you wrote something which made me wary to – but any regular who is in our town is of course invited. Emily already knows she has a standing invitation to just get her new job here and have regular drinks nights with Mariks. And I don’t know where S. and Lynx hail from, but they’re welcome too. I’d also love to meet YAG, as I suspect he’d be quite fun in real life, just a charming scoundrel and a born flirt. This is ridiculous not even knowing what you all look like.
Emily, to says
Lynx,
“Am I your mom?! That’s exactly what my kids have experienced with their father.”
Would you like to be my mom? I’ve been hoping to be adopted. 🙂
“My parents ostensibly stayed together for my sibling and I, but in truth … There is something to be said for loyalty in an indifferent world.”
My grandmother told me that after my aunt went off to college (she was the youngest), she and my grandfather agreed to stay married but pretty much do their own thing except for family obligations. And I could feel the strain and silence between them when I went to visit as a teenager, which made me sad. I wanted them to be happy. But even then I was very afraid they would get divorced. I did not want them to separate.
Lynx says
@Emily: I’d be honored to be your faux-mom. The kindest, saddest compliment I ever got was from my son’s first girlfriend as they were breaking up. She had been a foster child from age 11, and undergone all the crap you’ve heard about. At one point, when the break was hardest for her, she cried, “Why does he get to have a mom like you and I don’t?” Still crushes my heart just typing that out – in a belated shoutout to @Adrian, I agree it is frustrating to see people campaign against abortion when there are so many children in the here and now who are in desperate need.
“I wanted them to be happy.”
This is the great burden to some children of discontent parents. I know it was for me. You think you can make them happy — and for a while, in my case, with my mother, I could, but then it all came crashing down when I got my first boyfriend and my attention shifted away. Once, during a fight, she told me, “I always thought you were the perfect daughter. I was wrong.” Ouch.
I have tried very hard to reassure my kids they have zero responsibility for my happiness, it’s completely on me. Of course, they also know I’ll get a little crazed if dirty dishes are left in the sink!
Lynx says
Mrs. Happy: “This is ridiculous not even knowing what you all look like.” There has got to be a dating app out there with this premise, where you don’t see any photos and connect purely by text-based rapport. I wonder what the success stats are?!
Adrian says
Hi Lynx, Mrs. Happy, and Emily,
Lynx said, “belated shoutout to @Adrian, I agree it is frustrating to see people campaign against abortion when there are so many children in the here and now who are in desperate need.”
Thanks Lynx, shout-out back at-cha. A couple of us regulars have gone back to college to get our masters or PhD and I’m one of them. On my university campus every year the anti-abortion groups comes and post crosses that represent graves of “supposedly” aborted babies all over the school. Yet I’ve seen those same people walk right by the teenage homeless, teens and pre-teens asking for change for public transportation, and of course they walk by young (10 and under) children dressed in layers of shirts but no coat during the winter without even given them a second glance.
Now I’m not saying it’s their job to help anyone, all I’m saying is if you fight so hard to make sure women have birth, to the point of calling all women who decide they are too young or don’t have the way of supporting a child a sinner, a child murder, say they are going to or sending that baby to hell… then when a women does knowledge their views and the child is born why not stick around to help or set up something to make sure the struggling (often young) single mom has support? I think people mainly fight for it so strongly because it make them feel good about THEMSELVES to be SELF-RIGHTEOUS!
It’s the same way with unhappy marriage I believe. Only that couple knows if it is better to stay married for the kids or not, but when strangers (with or without kids) scream how much of a sin it is to divorce because the the poor children. I wonder are they so anti-divorce with kids because they know children are ALWAYS better in unhappy marriages or is it because it makes them feel good about THEMSELVES to be SELF-RIGHTEOUS?…”I would gladly sacrifice for my kids happiness… Eghhh… wouldn’t you? I love my kids enough to endure, don’t you???”
… … …
Mrs. Happy said, “Adrian I almost offered you the same last summer but then you wrote something which made me wary to”
Emily said, “Oh, yeah. I hear Mariks is down for anything.”
See Mrs. Happy I’m the innocent vanilla one, it’s Marika a.k.a break dancing Mariks that is the wild one! (^_^)
Adrian says
Hi Lynx,
You said, “There has got to be a dating app out there with this premise, where you don’t see any photos and connect purely by text-based rapport. I wonder what the success stats are?!”
I think in the UK they do or did have a show like that and from the few things I’ve read about the show, it is one of those things that seem like a good idea in theory but doesn’t work in practice.
Couples went on several dates in the dark and 9 out of 10 times their was rejection when they saw each other with the lights on… Even though they had long deep conversations, kissed, hugged, and started getting “feelings” for each other when they were in the dark.
All that time in the dark “bonding” they imaged the person looking different. No matter how mentally & emotionally compatible you are, you need attraction and no matter how attractive you find a person you need compatibility.
Emily, to says
Adrian,
See Mrs. Happy I’m the innocent vanilla one, it’s Marika a.k.a break dancing Mariks that is the wild one! (^_^)
You’re not innocent. We now know you got a little dirty birdy in you. 🙂 Weren’t you once posting that women thought of you as the husband and not the boyfriend? If you let a hint of the real you emerge, you could change that perception. 🙂
Emily, to says
Lynx,
At one point, when the break was hardest for her, she cried, “Why does he get to have a mom like you and I don’t?” Still crushes my heart just typing that out
That is sad.
This is the great burden to some children of discontent parents. I know it was for me. You think you can make them happy — and for a while, in my case, with my mother, I could, but then it all came crashing down when I got my first boyfriend and my attention shifted away.
I won’t bore you with the details of my upbringing, but I was raised by a family friend, a single woman who thought of me more like a default husband than a child to raise. She would get mad at me if I went out with my friends. But I was a teenager and even that young I knew her demands on me were too much and I resented it.
Lynx says
Oh, @Emily, to, I am sorry to hear that. It must have been a challenge to trust anyone to have your best interest at heart. Are you still in touch with her (if it’s not impolite to ask)?
Mrs Happy says
I’m now contemplating that nobody among us regulars (bar break dancing Mariks) had a loving, caring, normal mother? An interesting common denominator.
Emily, to says
Lynx,
“It must have been a challenge to trust anyone to have your best interest at heart.”
I hadn’t thought of her having that effect, but you bring up a good point.
“Are you still in touch with her (if it’s not impolite to ask)?”
No. I felt guilty about that for a while, but — can I be honest? — after a while just felt glad to be free. She was suffocating.
Emily, to says
Hi Mrs. Happy,
I’m now contemplating that nobody among us regulars (bar break dancing Mariks) had a loving, caring, normal mother? An interesting common denominator.
Are there videos of Mariks break dancing online? She must be dancing to Herbie Hancock’s “Rockit” or I simply will NOT watch it. 🙂
I had a great mother, but she died when I was young. Then I was left with, to quote George Clooney’s character in “The Descendants,” the “back-up parent.” I have often wondered if having no father is better than having a bad one (as horrible as that sounds). I had a good male role model in my grandfather (other side of the family). That would have been enough.
Jeremy says
If I ever do make it out to Sydney (which is a dream of mine), I’ll buy lunch for you and Mariks, EW. You can be in charge of spider catching/smushing. Fair is fair, and I’d not want you to feel as though you had nothing to contribute
I often wonder whether any of us would get along in real life. How the conversations would go, whether we would naturally progress to friendship from the basis we have formed here or whether it would be like a blind date where we’ve over-communicated before meeting and so have little left to talk about. Anyway, I think it would be fun to find out. The breakfast club outside of detention.
Now, honest answer had you seen the movie prior to my comment weeks ago, or did you download it afterward? I have an internal bet with myself about that one …
Mrs Happy says
CB –
I’d seen The Breakfast Club decades ago, though it was released when I was a little young for it, not quite a teenager, from memory. Not overly impressed really. I had a “Save Ferris” T-shirt though.
Of course we would get on in real life you turkey. I’m great at friendships. (Well, when I’m not ruthlessly culling them.) I’ve more than enough social grace and concern to compensate for your friendship-related and self-worth anxieties. I’m really good at friendships with males.
I just this morning saw The Wiggles with my daughter and asked her, do you think I look like Emma the yellow Wiggle, and she said, no, not without a lot of theatre make up and darker hair and less belly padding. Charming!
Come to Sydney, Come to Sydney, Come to Sydney. Or at least give me your email address. So I can debate with you outside the public eye why you should’ve let your wife prepare the bitter herbs etc. Stop hesitating, you know it’s going to happen, and nothing problematic will eventuate. Come on. I could sic a private investigator on you with all the demographic data you’ve provided and contact you that way, and boy did I want to send you the bear book at Xmas that way, but restrained myself, it’s just too creepy to do that. And I want you all in. Jump, Yossarian, jump.
Meagan says
I just have to say to the author that the fact that your wife is a stay at home mother is not akin to her not working or doing anything while you’re doing all the work. Housekeepers are paid for their work. Nannies are paid for their work. Both of those things plus some fall under a stay at home mom’s responsibilities. She may not be bringing in money but it sounds like she doesn’t need to. So comparing a boyfriend who does not cook or clean (which means she’s cleaning his messes plus her own and her children’s) or pay anywhere near an equal part of the bills to a stay at home mother who takes care of the children and the house is not the same at all. I don’t see how that situation compares to the original poster’s at all.
Jeremy says
Catch-22. I’ve always identified with Yossarian, never knowing if I was the sane one in a crazy world or the crazy one among the sane. Such a classic book – such beautiful irony, damned if you do, damned if you don’t….so you gotta pick your poison. Such a metaphor for life.
If my wife was on an online chat group I’d support her having an outlet for her interests and socialization. But if she began socializing privately with a man she met there, I’d likely not understand. So how could I expect her to do what I couldn’t?
So tell me why you think I should have let her prepare the bitter herbs. I’m always up for a friendly debate, and admit I could be wrong. 🙂
Mrs Happy says
CB,
“So tell me why you think I should have let her prepare the bitter herbs.”
Because she wanted to.
(It would have made her feel good. She wanted to express her care and love for her family via this act on such an important evening. It had great significance for her. Perhaps you were selfish to take that from her just so you’d get your wants met – her attention, energy, time? Most importantly, there shouldn’t be a “let” in an equal relationship – she is not your inferior and shouldn’t have needed your permission or approval.)
On the other query:
it’s not socialising, it’d be a pen pal (via email) friendship, because we’d never see one another. My mood sank earlier today when I read your recent post on another thread and realised your stance on male thoughts re emotional support. I appreciate people have different opinions on friendships, but you’re wrong and it can be done. I do it. My husband and I both have multiple friends of both genders. You could do it. You haven’t tried.
You know you’d like more friends. If you don’t want to, it will indeed be my unfathomable loss, but the thing is, you want to, you just believe it’d be a bad idea. I almost never encounter someone I so want to communicate with. I have about 100 questions. Due to manners if nothing else, I should only ask and get your no reply so many times. (Plus, each time it shocks then really hurts.) It’s just so frustrating, because, well, I’m right and you’re wrong, and the cost of your incorrect stance is this great thing which would enhance my life.
Hey, I’ve just had an idea – try it my way for a year, or half that, or a month, and then reassess, and if you’re right (you’re not, but I’m humouring your reasoning process) then revert to your stance for evermore. The benefits outweigh the risks; you expect your sick patients to make this leap of trust every day, so you should do it every so often. Trust enlivens life.
I’m harmless. I’m smiling just typing this, it’s so fun conversing with you. Happiness is contagious and I sit at an 8. (Chocolate helps.) I’m feeling vulnerable typing all this into a public space. Jump.
Jeremy says
I will speak with my wife and see what she thinks. Because while I agree with you about the importance of friendship, her feelings must be of paramount importance.
Marika says
Jeremy & Mrs H
You two are the cutest!
Re the herbs, I see your point Mrs H, but you could see Jeremy’s stance as good emotional labour. Women do it all the time – you know X will upset your husband and the household – he wants to do it anyway, but you suggest an alternative or find workarounds. I can relate to that.
J’s wife stepped in when it came to their daughter’s sleeping arrangements… in marriages one partner is better at certain things and has the final say. I would guess J is better in his marriage at empathy/self awareness/self reflection.
I recall my ex sister in law used to put on elaborate kids’ parties, then be exhausted and awful to be around. We all would’ve preferred a simpler party and a happier host.
Heather says
I receive child support for one child. He pays child support for one. We have 4 adult children together for a total of 6, 3 mine, 3 his. We bring home around the same amount. My job pays less but I receive alimony and child support. We live together. He pays half the mortgage but contributes nothing toward utilities. I feel he should pay half of everything pertaining to our living expenses. He has more kids in the house than I do. Two of mine are away at college. His two youngest come 50% of the time to our house. His oldest with us full time. Only my youngest is with us 70% of the time. I’m also feeling used and resentful. He does contribute to our household chores equally. I don’t know if I should bring it up. Help!
J.M.C. says
I’m in a bad situation now and we share 2 kids together. He had bought a house before we got pregnant that needed completely redone. I’ve given him around $5000 towards that. I have paid all the child care rent utilities and food for the past 5 years. Hes not worked on the house he bought for 4 years. And I’ve let him claim the twins on taxes every other year. In 5 years hes given me $5600 total. He rarely comes home after work to help with kids cleaning or cooking I do make more than he does and would not expect half but I cant even get an 8th. It’s my own fault. Im glad I can take care of myself and mine. I have 2 older kids that are not his. 1 is in college lives in the dorm on a scholarship. And 1 is 16 and works. They both bought their own cars and are pretty self sufficient. Of course their food and i pay their car insurance. Never asked him to pick them up or drop then off anywhere. I hate to have another split family. But I’m worth more than what I’m getting. Just simply taken advantage of. Hell can you have it any easier than he does. I’m sure he has $15000 in the bank saved and i have 1500 living from paycheck to paycheck.
joann says
yeah, I got a boyfriend that makes a lot more more than i do, he has his own house, might say he’s living with me except his things are not here. takes me out 2-3 times a week to fast food, maybe once a month to a little nicer place. He pays me nothing for bills and on top of that i do the cooking and the cleaning. been together for year and a half. he has quilt bring wine and flowers except he brings flowers on special days like birthday and valentines. I also pay for all groceries. now i’m feeling a lot of resentments
Eileen says
I think I am in a similar boat . My boils supposed to move in with me . He’s been at my apartment 95% of the month already and hasn’t offered me anything. We talked about rent allegations the bills are and how much is his half would be . He said “ I’ll give you money next week” , that time came and went . I asked again . “I’ll give you money next week “ . Why ? This isn’t fair to be and I’m beginning to resent him and feel like he is taking advantage of me. Like the above , he is very sweet , thanks me for everything I do .
John says
This is sad that we have all become reliant upon social media, counseling, and the web for advice. I’m just as guilty looking for answers. I think the main focus is lack of communication or the lack of one side of the relationship to communicate causing resentment. I am a man that raised 2 daughters and still is willing to try and have a relationship with women with children. I have gained insight in to which a typical mom goes through on a daily basis. People are just using people to survive and making a basis of attraction and good sex as a finale decision maker. This hasn’t ended well for me time and time again. In the start of this relationship I bet all things said/ promises, future desires, loyalty, trust, and all that good stuff was agreed upon. Then comes in reality of issues… jealousy, past hurts, respect, and distilled morals. There comes differences and truths. All the facts arise. All the flags are ignored. I’m hopes of that person keeping their word at what they said they wanted. Family, friends, and social media impact everyone’s relationships if you allow it. I am one that is loyal, works hard, provides as much as I can to the relationship but unfortunately there are a lot of selfish people with ulterior motives. The now motive. Survival. A relationship requires give and give. I recommend self observation and digging into yourself and what you can live with and what you can live without. If they say they can’t be there for you… listen! They can’t, and that is who they are. Don’t be nieve and think they will change. Watch and listen. It hurts. And you can’t save them. I bet if they break up with you they go jump on the next and excuse theirselves for their actions. Y’all were broke up. People don’t leave someone if they truly love them and value their relationship… if it is a true relationship. Forgiveness and self love is needed. Suggestion. Work on your self. Communicate with your partner. If they can’t… they never will. Because you allow it. They might realize later after your gone.. but o highly doubt it. It’s all they know. I pray for all those out there going through this pain and hurt. Just know that there are others like you who would love to be in a devoted relationship with communication and appreciation. They’re just not ready for it. Find yourself again and move on.
KJ says
He is not being a provider for the family he chose to get involved in. Child support should not even be counted since that is to support the child and mother.
Being a partner in a relationship especially living together requires both to pull equal weight. Single mothers have a responsibility to taking care of their children. Any man who would move in with a single mom and not pull his weight is not a good situation. Of course resentment is going to set in. Idc if he is a “nice” man. He is a man who should be a partner to his SO not a burden which is what that sounds like.
Separate living situation is best for this woman and her kids.
Ale says
She definitely needs a real man. One who will provide for her and her kids and if he can’t do that financially then he better move out. I am sure he has access to the whole house, so he should at least pay half of what the homes are going for rent in that area. Now he is enjoying a bigger place and perhaps in a better area. That doesn’t come for free. He also eats, so he needs to pay half of the food, and Pgne, water, garbage and since he is not paying all the expenses in the house he must contribute half to all the chores in the house, unless he wants to pay her to do it. I pay $150 every time the cleaner lady comes to clean once per week. And if I want her to cook, I have to pay her minimum two hours per meal at $30 dollars per hours. He is no longer living with mommy, so he better contribute. If he doesn’t want to do in-house chores; He can also contribute in other ways, for instance, fixing the house when it needs fixing, cutting the grass, washing the windows, the house, trimming the threes, and gardening.. If he wasn’t around, she could invest more time with her kids, do her own thing and have time to find a real man. She is wasting her time with this dude. She could get a roommate and things would be much chipper for her, less work and no hustle or resentment.
Ale says
My guy wanted to do the same thing: living life none chillante, not offering to pay for bills, food or rent. I live in good areas and nice large homes. For two years he didn’t offer and I ended up getting upset that he wouldn’t offer to pay for most of the bills since he makes 3x more than me. So one day I sat him dow and told him that he needed to contribute if he wanted to continue enjoying me, my properties and what I had to offer. He moved in with out inviting him , he slowly moved in. He has a lot of his crap in my house and he pretty much enjoys all my places, he definitely feels very comfortable around. He now helps me with half of the inside as well as half of the outside, grooming the pets and pays all the food, the bills and gives me money for my places. Sometimes I have to pull teeth for him to contribute, but I only give him two options: 1) he either helps me with everything, not just a room, or 2 ) he can move out on his own. But let’s say , my guy made way-way less income wise, I would expect 50% of his income and he would do all the cleaning, the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry, the yard, and the fixing. If people want to only pay for a room Price then rent else where, this way everyone Keeps their sanity!
Lisa vega Vega says
The fact of the matter is this guy has it good. He would not have it as good if he lived alone. Based on his finances he cant live alone and is milking her. 600.00 left over wont pay for an apartment and food and laundry. She should get rid of him. He needs to get another job to pay his share of the living expenses which is half. She is busting her butt working two jobs. He should be doing the same thing. Hustling for extra money. He sounds like a lazy man that is entitled. Get rid of him.
Jessica says
I can’t with mooching men! There are so many who will help financially & I’m in a similar predicament.
I have a boyfriend who I fought with constantly. He basically lives here. He wants to be up my butt 24/7 & pouts & has an attitude 80% of the time. He supposedly is in law enforcement & lives in LA but commutes; yet, he “works” once a week. He never goes to his house. Stay here. I have been dating him 5 months. My bills are 2500$ a month just for rent, pge, water, gas, cable. He stays here & uses it all. I even buy all the groceries & he will eat, and i always drive & he rides in my car everywhere. He wants to split food when we go out to eat. & will let me pay for stuff. He will also never offer for gas, or groceries or not even offered to pay a bill & we have fought about this many a times. His advice was turn your AC down to save $, and that him helping me is only benefiting me. He said he helps fix things at my house & I don’t appreciate him. He has helped install a doggy door and dog fence we did together. But isn’t that something nice a boyfriend is suppose to do anyway. He knows I’m broke and don’t get paid in August & if I say here’s 5$ for food, he will take it. I seriously resent him. What are your thoughts??? I think he’s a liar too and prob rents a room, and then mooches off my nice lifestyle here yet has no desire to help the lifestyle but loves to eat the food & enjoy my house, showers and peaceful environment for free. & previously i have always had boyfriends who made $ and took care of me. My money was mine & they helped a ton financially, even when they didn’t live w me. I make good money myself now & the last few years am completely independent, but I do not and can not respect him as a man.
Lillian says
This guy is a leach and he’s basically lazy ..she’ll never get anything more From him emotionally or financially .. sure he’s sweet. And brings her flowers .. thinking this will keep things calm .. sure we love flowers
And words of love …but relationships are much more I’d be kicking
Him to the curb !!