Can I Reach Out to Him on Social Media When We’re First Starting to Date?

I read your book “Why He Disappeared” and really enjoyed it. Thanks for all the great advice. Even after reading the book though, a man I recently dated disappeared. I was surprised because he even followed up with me after our last date to tell me what a great time he had. We were mutual friends before we started dating, and so we were already connected via Facebook, Twitter etc. While dating I would occasionally “like” his posts on social media, or maybe send him a funny article that I saw. I know that in your book you recommend against initiating contact during the dating phase of a relationship but because the things he posted are public, and it’s not as though I was texting him to set up a date, I assumed this form of contact would not take the fun of “the chase” away from him. Since he has stopped contacting me though, I’m not so sure that I was correct in my assumption. Can you offer me tips on how I should be treating the people I date on social media? It seems pretty silly not to “like” a public post out of fear of coming across too strongly. Thanks again!

Jill

One of the trickiest things about publishing anything is that the second you’re done with it, you realize it needs further revision. It never occurred to me that one of the main concepts in Why He Disappeared, called “mirroring” would be as nuanced as it’s turned out to be. But evidently it is. Which is why your question is a perfect opportunity for me to explain how to make mirroring work best for you.

For the uninitiated, mirroring is designed for one purpose – to prevent women from chasing down men who are not interested in them. It is not a game. It is not a throwback to the 1950’s. It requires no thought and very little effort. Mirroring presumes one basic thing about that guy you like: if he’s interested in you, he’ll let you know.

So…

If he texts you, text him back right away.
If he calls you, call him back right away.
If he says he wants to see you this weekend and you’re free, say yes.
If he says he wants to be your boyfriend and you feel the same, say yes.

Mirroring is reactive, not proactive.

Mirroring presumes one basic thing about that guy you like: if he’s interested in you, he’ll let you know.

It gives men the space they need to choose you, prevents you from looking needy and desperate, and reveals what men are thinking – all without doing ANYTHING.

Mirroring is based on confidence, not insecurity. You should never have to chase a guy down and remind him that you’re alive and available and want to see him. All you have to do is be warm, enthusiastic and available when he reaches out to you.

The primary exception to mirroring comes in the form of beta/feminine men. Beta/feminine men are often some of the best husbands out there, but they conduct themselves in a passive way, leaving women wondering how they feel. In short, these nice guys are so insecure about pursuing you and making a move that they often wait for YOU to express interest in them. “You can call me, you know,” might be their mantra. Which is fine. However, this puts you in your “masculine energy,” and forces you to be the one to reach out to him to gauge his interest and availability.

As a dating coach for women, I don’t like that model. Nor do most of my clients. They may be proactive superstars in real life, but they tend to prefer being courted by men.

Which brings us back to the beginning. When a man is interested in you, you don’t have to do anything except say yes. You never have to reach out to him because he will do it for you. It’s in his best interest – whether he wants to get laid or whether he wants to be your boyfriend. You have to trust that.

Bringing this back to you, Jill, I wouldn’t worry too much that you scared off an otherwise interested guy by liking his Facebook posts. I would say that, in general, I would avoid initiating ANYTHING with a man until he’s your full-fledged boyfriend. Let him do the chasing. Let him wonder when you’ll call him back. Let him worry about whether he’s good enough to be your boyfriend.

Do nothing, Jill, and watch the men who really want you step up to the plate.

The second you start texting him, sending him photos, and following his every move thru social media, you’ve signaled one thing to him: “You’ve already won.” You don’t have to reach out to me. You don’t have to wonder what I’m thinking. You don’t have to do anything. Because I’m pursuing you. Because I like you. Because I want you to be mine.

Suddenly, there’s no mystery, no dance, no wonder – just a girl chasing a boy through the schoolyard to get his attention and wondering why he’s not chasing her instead.

Do nothing, Jill, and watch the men who really want you step up to the plate.

If you like this post, share it with your friends who need it. You know who they are. Women who aren’t sure why he hasn’t texted back, or whether he’s going to call this weekend, or whether he wants to be exclusive.

If you don’t know where a guy stands with you, try doing nothing. If you never hear from him again, chances are, he wasn’t that interested to begin with.

Finally, click here to learn Why He Disappeared – and, more importantly, how to make the good ones want to stick around forever.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Adrian

    This is the fifth time that someone has wrote in about the mirroring technique from the book Why He Disappeared, and I doubt this will be the last time it will need to be clarified.

    So I have two questions for the females readers of this blog as well as readers of Evan’s material.

    1. What concepts of Evan’s teachings do you struggle with understanding or that you think most women struggle with understanding?

    I think it will be interesting to compare what women struggle with understanding and what we men struggle to understand.

    2). What is the difference between acting like an average male and acting like an masculine male when it comes to dating?

    A general theme seems to be that if a guy feels insecure about rejection or wants some kind of feed back that a woman in into him by her taking the occasional initiate, than he is either beta/feminine or he is just not into her. “He didn’t approach, it can’t be that he fears getting rejected in this room full or crowded people, he must just not be really into me or he is beta.

    Is there a cut off for the lack of masculine actions that a woman demands from a man? Can a man just be a normal masculine guy or does he have to be more masculine when it comes to dating? What’s the difference?

    What separates the level of masculinity that women see in male co-workers and friends from the level that a women demand in a man dating her? Or do your male co-workers and friends never have moments when they are not sure about something or are apprehensive about the possibility of negative results?

    …   …   …

    A question to the male readers:

    Based off of Evan’s example of mirroring and courting, how did you remain confident that the woman was really interest in you and not just somewhat interested or unsure if for almost 2-3 months she never once called or texted you first? Never suggested getting together once until you became a couple?  If every call and text was just simply a return of your call and text?

    …   …   …

    And finally Evan said,

    “The second you start texting him, sending him photos, and following his every move thru social media, you’ve signaled one thing to him: “You’ve already won.” You don’t have to reach out to me. You don’t have to wonder what I’m thinking. You don’t have to do anything. Because I’m pursuing you. Because I like you. Because I want you to be mine.”

    Could someone explain to me why it is that when we switch the genders rolls in this statement then men are wrong for seeing it this same way?

    “The second you start texting her, sending her photos, and following her every move thru social media, you’ve signaled one thing to her“You’ve already won.” You don’t have to reach out to me. You don’t have to wonder what I’m thinking. You don’t have to do anything. Because I’m pursuing you. Because I like you. Because I want you to be mine.”

    Where is the line drawn between being a normal human who happens to be male that is sometimes unsure of themselves, and this never wavering ultra male that can walk up to strangers in a crowd, get rejected 10 times and keep smiling, can call a woman for weeks without her initiating anything with him as a sign that she is interested, or who always makes it to date 2 and gets rejected but never gets discouraged or jaded because he is happy that this is the man’s roll?

    It seems taboo for a man to be called beta, shy, or admit to being worried about rejection or getting his hopes up (thinking everything is going fine) only to be rejected at the end of date 2.

     

    I’m not being facetious, I am sincerely asking how is this not a double standard? I’m genuinely trying to understand the male’s expectations when it comes to dating and courting?

    1. 1.1
      Shaukat

      Adrian, you just expressed the exact thought I was about to jot down.

      Although I’m sure it’s unintentional, there does seem to be a bit of a contradiction between the statement that mirroring isn’t a game and this passage:

      The second you start texting him, sending him photos, and following his every move thru social media, you’ve signaled one thing to him: “You’ve already won.” You don’t have to reach out to me. You don’t have to wonder what I’m thinking. You don’t have to do anything.

      This is actually the inverse of a specific brand of ‘game’ taught to men by certain coaches. In fact, I remember reading a piece by Eban Kagan (David D) a couple years ago in which he said essentially the same thing to men: if you call the next day, if you suggest a second date on the first date, if you compliment her too early, etc, you’ve relinquished all challenge, you’ve given her the power, she’ll quickly get bored.

      I don’t really agree with that, but I have to say that from my experience when a woman doesn’t initiate any contact in between dates (and I’m just talking a text to say ‘hi,’ or ‘had a nice time, how was your day’) it doesn’t usually end well. It can sometimes be an indication that she isn’t necessarily all that interested but is killing time because someone else is putting in all the effort anyway.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat,

        if you call the next day, if you suggest a second date on the first date, if you compliment her too early, etc, you’ve relinquished all challenge, you’ve given her the power, she’ll quickly get bored.

        There is some truth to this. Attraction is, one some level, based on uncertainty. If a woman knows every move a man will make very early into the relationship, there’s nothing left to learn. It’s not necessarily about playing hard to get or acting mysterious or becoming a challenge; it’s simply letting things unfold naturally. There’s a fine line between showing interest and killing attraction. Can’t a woman who’s overly eager also kill attraction?

      2. 1.1.2
        Make Him Mine

        i agree

        Dating Coaching

    2. 1.2
      Priscilla

      Adrian,

      I think that you bring up some valid points. As a woman, it is very frustrating to me that if I express interest,  call you, or send a text that I’m seem as needy or easy. I know that Evan says that it’s not a game but sometimes it seems like it is. Why can’t two people just be upfront and honest with each other?

      1. 1.2.1
        Priscilla

        Sorry…’seen as needy’ not seem

    3. 1.3
      Rocky

      Adrian,

      I generally agree with you. But one clarification. I don’t think Evan truly expects a guy to keep calling and going out with women for weeks without any sign she is interested. True, he doesn’t expect the woman to initiate contact. But I believe he expects the woman to show physical interest. Remember the letter from the girl who said she doesn’t kiss until the third date? And Evan basically said, “you’re not wrong, but most guys you want won’t stick around. Reality.” He tells women to take their man around the bases while they decide whether they want to be exclusive.

      I suppose there are some women that are just passing time that will not only accept dates but also get physical, but I think that’s rare. As a man, one of our best tools to take a woman’s temperature is the simple acts of touching or kissing her. If she is kissing you goodnight, contributing money, and still accepting your date requests, she is interested. Even if she is not initiating contact. Your only concern should be not suffocating her.

      To that end, my advice is simply, don’t be nosy. I tend to shy away from “how was your day” too early in dating, preferring to just make simple comments. She knows I’m thinking of her, but doesn’t feel like I’m trying to keep tabs on her. Hopefully.

      1. 1.3.1
        Faeris

        Rocky…Adrian. Awesome 😊

      2. 1.3.2
        Nissa

        Do men just not ever ask directly? Why not just say, “I think this could be a really good thing between us, what do you think?”

        I just don’t see the point in beating around the bush. (When I met my husband, he was dating someone else, and asked me if we could just be friends. I replied, “I could never just be friends with you. Call me when you break up with her”. Which he did).

        It doesn’t get more simple than that.

         

         

        1. Rocky

          Hi Nissa,

          I am having a hard time following your comment. But I would never deliver the line you quoted before I was ready to ask to be exclusive. That’s what it sounds like to me.

          I suppose one might ask why men care if a woman is that interested if they aren’t ready to be exclusive yet. Everyone will have to answer that for himself  but for me, my time has value and if I believed there were no potential, I would stop seeing her. Not everyone is willing to assume the person they are dating dates the same way.

        2. Nissa

          What part was hard? I’m trying to say, if a man wants to know if I’m interested in him, he should say exactly that. “Am I a guy you can see yourself with? Are we a match? Are you interested in me? Do I fit what you need? Is there something about me that’s a dealbreaker for you?” Then it is perfectly clear, no ambiguity. Even “I’d like to get to know you better” is acceptable.

          I agree, my ‘question’ does tend to lean toward what one would say if they were ready to be exclusive. But I’d argue that if a guy wants to be casual, and they are having sex already, even those same words could indicate, “We are having fun, and I’d like to have more fun with you without changing things, how about it”? I find it easiest when people say exactly what they mean without my having to guess at hidden meanings. If you make me guess, I won’t guess. I’ll drop you.

          I’m a satisficer. For me, I have what I’m looking for, and tend to find that guys clearly do, or clearly don’t. If they do, why would you keep looking? And if they don’t, why would you waste time?

          One of the things that caused me to be not interested in otherwise acceptable men is when they couldn’t be direct with me. If they didn’t show confidence by calling/planning/paying/ expressing interest directly & consistently, it would cause my interest to diminish. I’m sure many men who were actually interested in me, ended up not knowing me, because they would not initiate. For example, calling to ask me “what are you doing? or Let’s hang out” is a fail. I’m a grown woman. Ask me on an actual date. Then you can have the ‘getting to know you’ call between the ask and the actual date. Why not ‘take a woman’s temperature’ by asking directly – how much contact is good for you, what is your preference? Then you have no guessing and no suffocating.

        3. Rocky

          I don’t know where “just ask me out” came from. Adrian’s original comment was about a guy who is already dating a woman and trying to figure out how interested she was.

          As I said in another comment, I am fine just assuming that a woman who keeps accepting dates and going on dates is interested. Some men won’t make that assumption and maybe they should take your advice about being more direct. But for me, I just do what seems appropriate and see what happens. I agree with John that excessive contact too early is a bad sign.

          maybe part of the problem is that you seem to be seeing this through the lens of a situation where the “couple” is having sex already. That blows my mind, frankly. I cannot imagine what guy would question whether a woman is interested in him if she is having sex with him and I highly doubt that is what Adrian was talking about. As I understand it, we were talking about the woman who accepts dates but doesn’t do much else to show interest.  I think having sex would count. (Before anyone jumps on me, I didn’t say it’s necessary!)

        4. Emily, the original

          Rocky,

          I cannot imagine what guy would question whether a woman is interested in him if she is having sex with him

          Have you never had sex with a woman you weren’t all that interested in? Sex in and of itself proves nothing. I have a good friend who did a friends-with-benefits situation with an acquaintance of hers. She let it go on for two months, though she wasn’t particularly attracted to him. But it was convenient and he did all the work in terms of texting/calling.

          What would have been indicative of her interest level is whether or not she had accepted dates from him. Whether or not she interacted with him as a person and made an effort to get to know him. That is far more telling than sex.

    4. 1.4
      GoWiththeFlow

      Hi Adrian!

      1. What concepts of Evan’s teachings do you struggle with understanding or that you think most women struggle with understanding?

      I think what’s hard isn’t intellectually understanding Evan’s concept, it’s doing the inner work to actually change your thinking and behavior so you can implement Evan’s advice.  I might intellectually know that ice cream is high in sugar, fat, and calories and I’ll gain weight if I eat a lot of it.  Yet I may still go to the grocery store every week and buy 2 gallons of ice cream and eat a huge bowl of it after dinner because it tastes so good and the post sugar crash helps me fall asleep.

      That’s what it seems happened with the OP.  i think she knew what the concept was, she just had trouble implementing it because, in the moment, it felt better to reach out and remind the guy that she’s still alive.

      I’ll get back to whether mirroring is game playing in a moment.

      2). What is the difference between acting like an average male and acting like an masculine male when it comes to dating?

      IMO the average man is a masculine man.  It’s just the degree to which his masculine side is expressed.  (And, yes, there are feminine men, but they are in a minority) Alpha and Beta aren’t either/or, but on a continuum where most people fall somewhere on the line, but most men will wind up on the alpha side of center and most women will wind up on the beta side of center.  Most women do like the alpha or masculine behavior in men of initiating and being proactive.  Most women also like men who are kind and considerate which are beta qualities.  But the balance that will attract most women is still on the alpha side of center.  So I think the trick is in harnessing your inner confidence and desire to be proactive while still being able to be friendly and considerate of others.

      As for whether mirroring is game playing, it’s important to keep in mind that Evan says the sole purpose of this is to keep women from chasing men.  It’s not a technique used to hook men by intentionally causing them anxiety and stress.  If you are a woman chasing a guy in an attempt to get him to want to be with you, you have already lost because the guy isn’t as into you as you are into him.  It’s a setup for anxiety and uncertainty for the woman, where in a healthy interaction (at the beginning of a relationship) both people should feel excitement and anticipation.

      The basic principle is that if a man is calling you once a week and asking you to do something on short notice, that’s his expressed interest level.  If the woman decides she wants more from this man, and she starts calling or texting him several times a week, she is likely to fail in that endeavor  So why even try it?

      As for men assuming the role or the burden of initiating and planning dates with women, Evan does spend a lot of time prompting women to examine themselves about how they come off to and how they treat men.  He encourages women to make sure the man’s efforts are warmly received and appreciated.  And Evan has said many times that for a relationship to successfully take root, a woman has to be able to recognize and meet a man’s needs (for physical interaction as Rocky points out below) and not just focus on what she’s getting.

      1. 1.4.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Very well said, Go! Are you in Love U? Or did you get all that from reading this blog?

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          I’ve been reading your blog for about 2 1/2 years, read Why He Disappeared, and I’m in Love U.

          I think the men who read your blog might be surprised at how much you challenge your Love U students to examine their own beliefs and behaviors that limit their success with men and relationships.  It’s definitely NOT pick up artistry for women, “Do These 10 Things and Watch the Men Line Up to Marry You!”

          Thank you for your work, it is making a big difference in my life!

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          That’s wonderful. I was somewhere between delighted and appalled that someone could really “get” what I’m doing just from reading this blog. Glad to hear you took the extra step in Love U and happy to hear that it’s lent clarity to the concepts we discuss in this space.

      2. 1.4.2
        S.

        I do have questions about this that weren’t answered in Evan’s book, which may be why I didn’t feel the book was as helpful to me as it could have been.

        If you are a woman chasing a guy in an attempt to get him to want to be with you, you have already lost because the guy isn’t as into you as you are into him.

        Is this true of a man way more on the beta side of the spectrum? Or one who has some insecurities?  I can never tell.  Of course, one may not want to date person like this but my question is are they even really that interested?

        He encourages women to make sure the man’s efforts are warmly received and appreciated.

        It’s kind of difficult to be warm and appreciative when the efforts are so few and far between.  Or just a bit less.   That said, I was taught to thank people graciously for gifts no matter what they give you.   I kind of use that thought when men make any effort.  I’m gracious.  Sometimes their efforts attract and sometimes not. It’s such a fine line sometimes.  Between being attracted to a man who is shyer and being frustrated.  But with the men more on the alpha side of the spectrum, it doesn’t work for me at all.  They have a different energy,  a different body language even that doesn’t attract me.

        I personally am hoping for someone in the middle, but it’s definitely not as easy to find. I’m not sure about Evan’s advice sometimes.  I think it works for most women, but what if you aren’t most women?  I  know his advice isn’t to change your core self, but I’m intrigued about the inner work nonetheless.  Because the book didn’t resonate for me, I didn’t go further in his products but it’s an interesting thought.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi S.,

          “Is this true of a man way more on the beta side of the spectrum? Or one who has some insecurities?  I can never tell.  Of course, one may not want to date person like this but my question is are they even really that interested?”

          I think you answered your own question.  In the very beginning of a relationship, if a man makes a limited effort to see you or spend time with you, it’s because his interest in you is limited.

          “It’s kind of difficult to be warm and appreciative when the efforts are so few and far between.  Or just a bit less.”

          If you are referring to the efforts of one man (as being few and far between) then your lack of enthusiasm for showing warmth and appreciation may be a reflection of your disinterest in him.  Wish him well and part ways.  There’s someone out there for you that’s a better match.

          If you are referring to a lack of interested and interesting men in your life, then working on yourself can help you reach your relationship goals.

          “I’m not sure about Evan’s advice sometimes.  I think it works for most women, but what if you aren’t most women?  I  know his advice isn’t to change your core self, but I’m intrigued about the inner work nonetheless.”

          Evan’s advice is based on knowing your core self.  You know that you are not attracted to super alpha types, that you prefer a man who is “shyer.”  That’s a start.  Where do you sit on the spectrum of masculine and feminine traits?  You will be happiest with someone who is your complement.  To be able to know who your complement is, you need to know who you are.

          What characteristics do you have that would make you a great girlfriend?  This can be a difficult one for some women to answer because they’re more focused of what traits they want in a man.  And they have to be traits that men actually want in a partner, not what you think they should want.

          What are your weaknesses?  What about you will a man have to accept or compromise on?  How do you handle disappointment and conflict?  Can you look at your past relationships and see common themes?  Do you always seem to wind up in relationships where you feel stressed or unhappy?  Before you can break a bad habit or modify behavior you need to acknowledge it and own the part you have played in your past relationships.

          If you haven’t already, do a deep dive into past blog posts.  Re-read WHD and consider not only Evan’s other works but the resources that Evan draws a lot of his wisdom that he (and others) recommend.

        2. S.

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          Replying to my own reply since there was no reply button on your reply for some reason.

          I think you answered your own question.  In the very beginning of a relationship, if a man makes a limited effort to see you or spend time with you, it’s because his interest in you is limited.

          But I didn’t answer the question.  I wish a beta male would answer but I wonder if men simply don’t like to think of themselves that way and so aren’t answering?   I know what’s true for alpha male and wonder if it’s true for beta males. That’s all.

          I’ve dated mostly beta males.  I didn’t know the name for it but I knew what I liked.  And they never said they weren’t interested.  They gave limited effort sometimes because they simply didn’t have the experience to know how and when to do what they had to do.  Or they had other insecurities.  My real question is whether a man will still show he same type of interest despite these factors. That I don’t know.

          If you are referring to the efforts of one man (as being few and far between) then your lack of enthusiasm for showing warmth and appreciation may be a reflection of your disinterest in him.

          I’m thinking of the last man I went on dates with. I mentioned that experience somewhere around here in a recent comment.  It’s not few and far between.  Unless I want it to be.  🙂 He was unusual (or was he?) in that he seemed to express this emotion  way, way late in the game.  So I just mentioned him because it was recent.  And yes, we parted ways.

          I know my core self.  Very well. I read Why He Disappeared in 2012 and was reading Evan’s blog before that.  I just didn’t post comments much due to time constraints.  And I was still learning.  Now when I get e-mails from Evan from his mailing list I know from the titles what he’s going to say even before I open the e-mail.  I’ve started deleting them because Evan is nothing if not consistent! I replied to this post because as he said above, there was the exception  with info on beta males and I was interested in that.

          He doesn’t mentioned beta males that often because the majority of women don’t find that style attractive. I do.  At least to a point.  But there are some aspects of it that are frustrating.  It may be a in for a penny, in for a pound situation, but I’m just trying to understand the type of men I like better.  Very little is written on them and I want to hear from them on the variety within this type.  They aren’t all exactly the same.

          Will I ever change my type? Does anyone?  People hit certain buttons for you for a myriad of reasons from childhood to your last experiences.  I’m probably not going to change at this point, but I would like to know better how not to get frustrated other than to date a type of man that doesn’t attract me.

          I’m looking for a middle ground, and probably a nuance even within a middle ground.  So I know well, what I want and am just learning as I explore.

          Because a lot of Evan’s works are predicated on most women liking a style of man and behavior I don’t like as much, I don’t feel his products work as well specifically for me.   But I have certainly gleaned a lot from these blogs through these years and appreciate this space.

        3. jeremy

          S., you wanted to hear from someone who considers himself somewhat Beta.  I fall into this category to some extent, though I might not seem to do so from a professional standpoint.

           

          I will say that Evan’s advice in this regard is of limited value to a woman who prefers a more beta-personality male.  Whenever I make a gesture of affection, I put myself out on the line for rejection.  I want to see some reciprocation from my partner, or else the lack of reciprocation seems very much like rejection to me.  Reciprocation is NOT just in the form of warmly accepting my advances, but also in my partner MAKING advances of her own to let me know that she is interested.

           

          I’ve been married for over 10 years (happily), and am not insecure in my relationship.  But even after all these years, if I am the one constantly putting myself out there for her without her doing the same, I perceive a lack of interest on her part (whether intended or not).

           

          So my bottom line to you is that if you prefer a shyer, more beta-type man, you will have to do more than just mirror.

      3. 1.4.3
        ScottH

        How long before bedtime should I have ice cream?

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          ScottH,

          LOL!!!

        2. Anon

          S-

           

          In your case I would read some of Pat Allen’s work. She says there is a small percentage of women who will want to play the masculine role to be with a feminine guy. So in that case the woman becomes the respected one and hunts after the beta male. If a woman wants a man that is more alpha her recommended approach is what she calls ‘fake beta’.

    5. 1.5
      SparklingEmerald

      Hi Adrian ”

      A question to the male readers:

      Based off of Evan’s example of mirroring and courting, how did you remain confident that the woman was really interest in you and not just somewhat interested or unsure if for almost 2-3 months she never once called or texted you first? Never suggested getting together once until you became a couple?  If every call and text was just simply a return of your call and text?

      Ok, I’m not a “male reader”  but is this hypothetical couple of 2 – 3 months sleeping together ?  If yes, then she’s interested.  If no, unless she has some sort of religious conviction, then no.

      I’m not sure if you were just asking the question to spark a conversation, or if you’ve genuinely been in these situation.  My guess is that you are playing devil’s advocate, because honestly, I can’t imagine any man sleeping with a woman he’s been dating for 2 – 3 months wondering if she’s “interested”.

      I think these academic questions (and this isn’t directed towards you personally, but just “you” generally)  about but WHY can’t a woman be the pursuer, aren’t they supposed to be “equal”.

      The Equal Opportunity laws only apply to the business world and the voting booth.  No one can co-erce anyone to date a quota of short people, people of other races and religions, etc .  No official is going to follow you on all dates to insure the bill is split down the middle 50/50.

      So many gender divisions have faded but a few remain.  Do you want equality or SAMENESS.  If men and women become EXACTLY alike, then what exactly is the attraction.

      I think you (you general) who are trying to logic, compel, cajole and generally talk women into becoming the sexual pursuers are barking up the wrong tree.  MOST women just don’t feel desired if they are doing the asking.  And many men like to pick the woman they will pursue, and not be chased.  (Sure, most will take any opportunity for easy booty, but for a real relationship, THEY want to pick)

      The real question is “Do you want to enforce some sort of across the board SAMENESS across gender lines, and insist that we all act EXACTLY alike at ALL times, or do you want to be effective ?”

      This question getting trotted out, reminds me of the column about the woman who’s boyfriend was turned off by her hairy legs.  Her whole premise seemed to be about wanting to be “equal” to a man.  She even told her boyfriend if she was going to shave her legs, then HE should shave his.  (You can try and access that article, all I can access is the headline, not the article itself)  She didn’t really seem to be interested in her relationship with the guy, she just seemed to want validation that women shouldn’t have to shave their legs and men should be perfectly fine with it.

      Well, she was half right, no woman HAS to shave her legs (unless she is a fashion model).  But that’s where our “right” ends.  Women are perfectly free to to let their leg and underarm hair grow out, and proudly sing “I am woman hear me roar”, but they don’t get to dictate to men that they find their hairy legs and pits attractive.  They can’t make men shave their legs in the name of equality.  So women have a choice, shut up and shave, or accept the fact that you are seriously narrowing your dating pool.

      There’s no “logical” reason why women should shave their legs and under their arms, but not men.  It’s just the way it is.  Hairy legs and pits are attraction killer for MOST men.  Passive men who wait for a woman to initiate are an attraction killer as well.

      Not sure if a woman is interested ?  Seriously, if you still don’t know, there are several books available on reading body language, facial expressions etc.  I would think that in one’s mid 20’s and beyond, one would be able to tell if a woman was interested.

      Here’s a hint, if she ENTHUSIASTICALLY says yes every time you ask her out, if she ENTHUSIASTICALLY makes out with you, if she’s almost ALWAYS available when you ask her, even if you ask her the day before (she’s clearing her calendar for you.)  When she is NOT available, she’s not coy, she says “Oh, I would just LOVE to do that with you, but I have a commitment I can’t get out of, but I AM available Sunday, and most of next week”.

      A woman who is always “busy”, is dis-interested.  A woman who routinely takes more that a few hours to return texts, calls and e-mails, is disinterested.  A woman who has only given you a “peck” on the lips after 3 or 4 dates, and not a full blown make out session is dis-interested.

      If she shows signs of interest, and her interest is mutual, keep asking her out, and escalating the physical.  If she’s always “busy” and her schedule is always “up in the air”, and things are “crazy busy” at work, move on.

       

  2. 2
    delonixreg29

    It is actually simple Adrian. You call her because she likes you she pick up the call and you talk for hours. You invite her out because she like you she accepts the invitation and goes out with you. What more do you needbro know a girl is intetested.

    Men and women are equally different.  Men yours is to approach.  Women ours is to respond how the guy hopes. Do you want us to get coffee . She answers yes i would love to. You got what you asked for are you not happy?

  3. 3
    Svetlana Bachtell

    Great article. Thank you, Evan.

  4. 4
    Randa Palfy

    How does this relate to when you met him online? Do you just leave your profile up for him to see that you’re meeting other men?

  5. 5
    CC

    Evan, don’t you think this mirroring technique could give a guy the wrong idea about your personality? You might come off really independent and low maintenance, and of course you aren’t going to get too emotional if they don’t text for a few days in between dates, because you know that if they are interested they will make something happen. But then you start dating and it’s time to be yourself, mirroring is about suppressing your desires afterall, and suddenly he realises you’re not the low maintenance girl he thought you were.  Lots of guys will get into relationships that they never intend to go anywhere, they’re just along for the ride with a girl that is pretty and seems chill. How do you transition from mirroring where obviously you aren’t doing what you want, to then being your full self and seeing if he wants the same thing? Do you just suddenly CHANGE, and text him often and instigate deeper conversations, when you didn’t do this before?

  6. 6
    John

    In my experience if I show too much interest in the beginning, most women lose interest. I do not talk for hours on the phone or text back and forth a lot. I prefer talking on dates face to face once per week. Too much availability too soon kills challenge both ways. Men and women love to get things that are hard to get. If I got tickets to see the Denver Broncos on the 50 yard line that is special, difficult and expensive. Would it be as special as tickets to my local towns high school football team? No. If a woman makes me wait to have sex until we are committed, I feel like I have a more valuable woman. If a woman wants to have sex the first night, I lose interest. My experience is that quality women want to feel like they got a guy who wasn’t easy to get. Most guys I know are so needy for sex or a relationship they would ask any woman to be his girlfriend who has a pulse. A guy who says that he wants to marry you on the third date is desperate. A guy that spends hours talking on the phone the first week when he really doesn’t know you has no life. I have a full-time job, my own business and friends. I am not interested in investing a lot of time so early on in the dating phase. I don’t remember where I read this, but it is so true: If a woman gives a man sex too fast, he doesn’t respect her. If a man gives a woman a relationship too fast, she doesn’t respect him.

    1. 6.1
      Rocky

      There is much I disagree with in this post but I want to highlight something I agree with and offer a caveat.

      Most quality women want a man who they feel isn’t easy to get. That’s elementary stuff, and I agree with it.

      But.

      As we saw on another recent thread (I think it was the “do I look like I’m playing games if I wait 3 days” thread), most of them still want this man to show interest in them. Lukewarm isn’t enough.

      This is what puts guys in a very tough spot. Ask said above, I think non-nosy, discrete texts work well here. If she thinks those are over eager or smothering, she was never that interested.

      1. 6.1.1
        John

        Rocky

        The reality is that texting too much, non-nosy or not, is not good to build a relationship. I’ve witnessed many  friends who become too familiar too quickly via text and the relationship dies before it starts. If a woman texts me a lot in the beginning, I tell her I’d love to hear her stories when we meet face to face. Simple texts to keep a basic connection are different. Having long conversations via text give you nothing to talk about on the next date. Texting can be lethal if over done in the beginning of the dating phase.

        1. Rocky

          I don’t think we really disagree. I am just saying that if you don’t contact a woman at all between dates, except to tell her where to show up for the next one, many women are going to think you’re not that into them. Even if she doesn’t think this consciously, she becomes less excited about seeing you by the time the date rolls around.  So I wouldn’t urge men to go that far.

          But I can get on board with keeping substantive conversation between dates relatively light, at first.

    2. 6.2
      Emily, the original

      John,

      A guy that spends hours talking on the phone the first week when he really doesn’t know you has no life.

      I totally agree. If a man can completely incorporate a woman into his life within the first few weeks of dating, something is OFF. He didn’t have all that much going on to  begin with. No friends, no hobbies, no interests.

      That doesn’t mean a relationship can’t progress fairly quickly, but it still needs to progress. A man who is calling and texting everyday within the first week or two is acting like a boyfriend before you even know him. I was watching a clip of the Steve Harvey show, and his advice to a woman was: If you ain’t special to us, don’t try to make us special to you. You can’t force an intimacy that hasn’t been built yet.

    3. 6.3
      Tom10

       @ John #6
      “Too much availability too soon kills challenge both ways. Men and women love to get things that are hard to get”
       
      “No. If a woman makes me wait to have sex until we are committed, I feel like I have a more valuable woman. If a woman wants to have sex the first night, I lose interest. My experience is that quality women want to feel like they got a guy who wasn’t easy to get.
       
      “I don’t remember where I read this, but it is so true: If a woman gives a man sex too fast, he doesn’t respect her. If a man gives a woman a relationship too fast, she doesn’t respect him”
       
      Some interesting comments John; I find it interesting that you make a correlation between a woman’s “value” and the length of time she waits to have sex. So, for you, women who have sex quickly are less valuable than women who make you wait. And it’s a sentiment that I read here a lot some time ago, but not as much anymore for some reason (I assume it’s to the on-going rapid change in the zeitgeist I). Indeed, it seems kinda old-fashioned now which makes me guess that you’re in your 40s or early 50s?
       
      You see, I value women by their intelligence, beauty, personality and femininity, not on when she has sex.
       
      When most guys with your views are asked why they consider women who have sex quickly as “lower quality” the guy’s stock response is something along the lines of; “well, the odds are higher that she has sex with loadsa guys on the first night”. And so what? Even if she does have sex with many guys on the first night, how does that lower her value? Well I guess the historical – and thus instinctive/social – reason was to do with paternity; a guy has a much greater chance of being cuckolded with a woman who has a propensity for multiple lovers than with a more chaste women. But has this rationale not now become obsolete with the invention of contraception and DNA-testing? I.e. as there is 0% chance of being cuckolded now why even consider it (if even instinctively)?
       
      Out of curiosity John, which would you value as “higher quality”: a beautiful and a very intelligent woman who has sex quickly, or a slightly plainer and more average intelligent woman who makes you wait?
       
      Now, in reality, it can be quite difficult to find women who are not only intelligent, beautiful, easy-going and feminine but also reciprocate interest: and that’s what makes her valuable.
       
      My point is I think you’re conflating two separate issues: you’re conflating a woman’s inherent value (her smarts, her beauty etc) with a (now) irrelevant characteristic (timing of sex) and coming to the incorrect conclusion that a woman’s value is related to when she has sex.
       Just something to think about.
       
       

      1. 6.3.1
        John

        Tom10

        Out of curiosity John, which would you value as “higher quality”: a beautiful and a very intelligent woman who has sex quickly, or a slightly plainer and more average intelligent woman who makes you wait?

        You are saying that I must choose between beauty, brains, etc. or a plainer more common woman. What your opinion tells me is that your paradigm you live in is either/or. That is not my paradigm. I have met attractive women who sighed with relief that I wanted to wait for sex until we were exclusive. I choose to not just fall into bed with a woman. When I was younger and had casual sex, I still had a talk with her before sex about STDs, birth control, sex with other partners.I have had plenty of casual sex when I was in my 20s. It got old. I prefer to meet women and to be up front. I realized casual sex is risky and not as fulfilling as having sex with a woman I’ve committed to and built a relationship with.. That’s my choice. I don’t care what you do. The great thing is I know what I want and I don’t compromise on fast food sex. Your right when you say that it’s hard to find the total package. I’m a patient man and I usually get what I want.

         

         

        1. Nat

          To be fair, John, I don’t think Tom10 implied that in real-life u had to choose between a pretty and smart woman vs a sexually-conservative woman. He just wanted to see which qualities were more important to u.

           

          I do however sort of agree with u and Emily that people who exercise discretion with their options are more attractive, and I think that attractiveness is more than just because they’re more commitment-oriented. It’s (to me) the difference between seeming a bit more animalistic vs having an air of classiness and high standards. (NOT that I’m saying everyone who has casual sex isn’t classy, I think one’s sexual habits are just one of Many factors in how elegant and selective one seems. Some of the most well-bred and selective people have casual sex).

           

          It actually makes me happy that people disagree on this issue, and it helps demonstrate that there really is a lid for every pot. And people should be more confident about being true to themselves and their values. Eg there are nice guys like Tom10 who don’t judge women for having sex relatively early and may even consider them more ‘valuable’ as partners for that characteristic. There are other good people who disagree. That’s all good IMO.

        2. Lynn

          Whoa.

          Beauty+Brains does NOT equal easy!

           

          (I am a woman)

          I am 41, just over six foot, former model, sing with a band, going to school to be a Doctor, volunteer with the elderly, children, homeless. and animals (I am trying to paint you a picture, I am actually a quite modest woman who finds herself mildly cute–I’m OK), I work out a ton, have abs, zero wrinkles, am called gorgeous constantly by men (ie at the autoshop), my classmates half my age ask me out (I refuse for MANY reasons, they are barely out of their high school incubators!), independent, am hit on even when I go to the store to buy toilet paper to wipe my butt (are you kidding me!) and I am NOT quick to hop in the sack. I am an EXTREMELY affectionate and compassionate person. I value physical contact as an expression of love–not gifts like a Coach purse.

          I am unsure where you are getting this “type” from, but a dominant ENTJ (dominant–I am the Commander type) like me does not give it up with a finger snap. I’ve had a string of first dates over the last couple of years that ended without even kissing (the men were interested, I was not).

           

          (as an aside–do any women reading this feel that men who are around the age of 30 or under mark have photos online that make them look older, and yet when you meet–they appear as if they have just recently walked out of the womb, and for men between 40-50–their photos look younger but in fact they are older looking than my grandfather (peace be with him, he is in the grave, no disrespect, but when you look older than my grandfather appeared at age 67 in person because of your lifestyle choices you refused to disclose–Houston we have a problem!)

           

           

           

      2. 6.3.2
        Emily, the original

        Tom10,

        I can’t speak for men, but a lot of what John wrote rang true for me:

        My experience is that quality women want to feel like they got a guy who wasn’t easy to get. Most guys I know are so needy for sex or a relationship they would ask any woman to be his girlfriend who has a pulse. A guy who says that he wants to marry you on the third date is desperate.

        A high-quality man is a man who has options and practices discretion. Not a man who takes advantage of every option in front of him. Or one who takes whatever he can get.

        1. Tom10

           
          @ Emily, the original #6.3.2
          “I can’t speak for men, but a lot of what John wrote rang true for me:”
           
          Yeah I can see that; you have pretty much the same opinion as him, but from a female perspective.
           
          “A high-quality man is a man who has options and practices discretion. Not a man who takes advantage of every option in front of him. Or one who takes whatever he can get.”
           
          You see, I understand that high-quality man is a man who has options. Um, *by definition* the guys who women consider “high-quality” have lots of women to choose from.
           
          But *why* do women consider him high-quality (thus generously affording him the luxury of said bounteous options)? Is it because he practices discretion, or is it because he’s tall, dark and handsome with a high-status job, hmm? Funny how ugly, unemployed guys who practice discretion (ha) aren’t afforded the same “high-quality” status.
           
          So, in reality, the “discretion” bit has nothing really to do how women value men; it’s simply a mechanism to try pressure the “guys with options” not to exercise those options. But why would anyone want to do that?! Well it’s so that he’d focus 100% of his energy on you of course! And not be off galavanting around town indulging in all his other options!
           
          So, similarly, when John claims that a woman’s inherent value is connected to when she has sex, what he’s actually doing is exercising his instinctive mechanism to try and pressure “women with options” not to exercise those options. But why would anyone want to do that?! Well it’s so that she’d focus 100% of her energy on him of course! And not be off galavanting around town indulging in all her other options!
           
           
          I guess my overall point is to recognize our instinctive biases which we’ve inherited from times past, recognize that modern technology has made many of them obsolete and then re-analyze how we attribute value to others.

        2. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Is it because he practices discretion, or is it because he’s tall, dark and handsome with a high-status job, hmm?

          A high-quality man is one I am really attracted to and interested in. Actually, my type is short, dark hair, skinny. Think Billie Joe Armstrong from Green Day. Height doesn’t mean anything to me, and I don’t care about his job so long as he can support himself. I just want him to be his own person and have some attitude. That’s my definition of high-quality. I’m sure it’s different for different women.

          So, in reality, the “discretion” bit has nothing really to do how women value men; it’s simply a mechanism to try pressure the “guys with options” not to exercise those options.

          Do you not get turned off if you’ve heard a woman has been around a lot? I don’t think that’s a sexist thing to say. Similarly, I get turned off if I hear a guy has hooked up with multiple people, for example, at his job. I have no desire to be next in line. If he is exercising all his options, women are all the same to him. He doesn’t have the ability to single someone out and really appreciate her.

        3. Tom10

           
          @ Emily, the original 
          I always enjoy our back and forths Emily; you force me to think. Which is good. 🙂
           
          “Actually, my type is short, dark hair, skinny. Think Billie Joe Armstrong from Green Day. Height doesn’t mean anything to me, and I don’t care about his job so long as he can support himself. I just want him to be his own person and have some attitude. That’s my definition of high-quality.”
           
          Okay, but by your very own definition, none of the characteristics of what constitutes a high-quality guy –“short, dark hair, skinny…be his own person and have some attitude” make any reference to a guy’s level of discretion!
           
          Which reinforces my belief that women value a guy as either high or low quality first, and then apply a level of judgement against his character second. And as this second level of judgement is rooted in historical reasons which no longer apply, worrying about discretion is a pointless exercise. So why worry about it?
           
          “I’m sure it’s different for different women.”
           
          While there is a certain level of subjectivity to how women value guys the fact that *some guys* have plenty of options leads to the inevitable conclusion that, actually, a large amount, if not the majority, of women value *the same guys* as high quality. Therefore, it actually isn’t that different for different women.
           
          “Do you not get turned off if you’ve heard a woman has been around a lot? I don’t think that’s a sexist thing to say.”
           
          Well, no actually, I don’t, although I admit I’m an outlier amongst men in this regard. When I came to the conclusion that the original societal/evolutionary reasons to stigmatize sluttyiness don’t have merit in modern dating, I made the intellectual decision to not get turned off when I’ve “heard a woman has been around a lot”. And therefore, I don’t.
           
          “Similarly, I get turned off if I hear a guy has hooked up with multiple people, for example, at his job. I have no desire to be next in line.”
           
          Ah, but you see, if you’re the best person he’s ever met then you won’t be another in a long line; he’ll never want to leave you for someone else.
           
          And because I know that it’s almost impossible for a woman to ever find a better guy than me, I never worry about being the next in her line. Mwah ha ha. 😉

        4. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I mentioned what my idea of a high-quality man looked like and acted like because you assumed it was someone “tall, dark and handsome with a high-status job.”

          You keep assuming this has something to do with sex. It doesn’t. I don’t want someone who will go out/have sex with anyone.  That implies desperation and an unending need for validation.

          I made the intellectual decision to not get turned off when I’ve “heard a woman has been around a lot”.

          I make my decisions about the opposite sex in my gut and in my who-ha! You should try it sometime.  🙂

          And because I know that it’s almost impossible for a woman to ever find a better guy than me,

          Statistically speaking, there won’t be many (presumably not more than one) who finds you the best. There’s a lid for every pot, but most lids won’t fit.

        5. Emily, the original

          I meant to write: You keep assuming this has something to do with sexual mores.

        6. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “You keep assuming this has something to do with sexual mores. It doesn’t. I don’t want someone who will go out/have sex with anyone.  That implies desperation and an unending need for validation.”
           
          Fair enough.
           
          “I make my decisions about the opposite sex in my gut and in my who-ha!  You should try it sometime
           
          I can’t: I don’t have a who-ha. But gosh wouldn’t it be fun to see what it’s like to have one! haha
           
          But in all seriousness I question the wisdom of making critical life decisions based on your “gut” and your, er, “who-ha”. Indeed, I consider the pursuit of trying to make decisions based on reason rather than emotion as an admirable and noble endeavor.
           
          “Statistically speaking, there won’t be many (presumably not more than one) who finds you the best.” 
           
          Let’s say I was the best guy in the world. Then, by default, every woman will find me the best she’s ever met.
           
          Now, even if being the “best guy in the world” is stretching it a bit (just a bit), I only have to better than most other guys to make it extremely difficult for women I date to find someone better than me.
           
          So that’s all one has to do then…be the best person your date has ever met. Simples. 😉

        7. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          But in all seriousness I question the wisdom of making critical life decisions based on your “gut” and your, er, “who-ha”. Indeed, I consider the pursuit of trying to make decisions based on reason rather than emotion as an admirable and noble endeavor.

          TOO LOGICAL. TOO DRY. Some decisions, at least romantic, should at least, in part, be made with more than your brain. Let your pee pee do the picking! 🙂

          Let’s say I was the best guy in the world. I only have to better than most other guys to make it extremely difficult for women I date to find someone better than me.

          Ah, but attraction and a woman’s wants and desires are sometimes inexplicable and arbitrary. You may think you are the best (or at least better than the other guys she’s dated) … but for some oddball reason, she’s hung up on your friend, who is less attractive, makes less money and is less personable. It happens.

        8. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original

          “TOO LOGICAL. TOO DRY.”

           Lol. No decision can ever be “too logical.”

          “Some decisions, at least romantic, should at least, in part, be made with more than your brain”.

          TOO RISKY.

          “Let your pee pee do the picking”

          I think this is fine for short-term dating; when you know there’s no possibility of a future together (if used in conjunction with contraception). But when it comes to the big stuff – kids, commitment, co-mingling finances, building a future – letting my “pee pee” do the picking just seems naïve and short-sighted in the extreme.

          Now I know you don’t want kids Emily, but even so, selecting a long-term partner with your criteria seems like a very high-risk strategy. Poorly assessing a guy’s character – due to selecting him with your “who-ha” – could lead to poor, or even dangerous, outcomes down the line.

          “Ah, but attraction and a woman’s wants and desires are sometimes inexplicable and arbitrary. “

          I know you – and many other female contributors – have written this before and genuinely believe it, but my experience has been that a woman’s wants and desires are, actually, usually quite explicable and not arbitrary; there are reasons and logic for women wanting what they want. Even if a particular woman doesn’t critically analyze the decisions she makes, an objective observer can rationalize and explain them.

          “You may think you are the best (or at least better than the other guys she’s dated) … but for some oddball reason, she’s hung up on your friend, who is less attractive, makes less money and is less personable. It happens.”

          I dunno, I just think that this *doesn’t* happen. Or at least, I’ve never seen it happen in my life: there’s always a reciprocal benefit in the package somewhere. When faced with a few different choices, why would anyone pick the inferior option for an oddball reason?

        9. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

           Lol. No decision can ever be “too logical.”

          I beg to differ!  🙂   Are you a Star Trek fan? Are you part Vulcan?!

          Poorly assessing a guy’s character – due to selecting him with your “who-ha” – could lead to poor, or even dangerous, outcomes down the line.

          Yes, very true. But SOME of the decision to pick someone should be emotional. It can all be lists and charts and graphs and Excel spreadsheets.

          But my experience has been that a woman’s wants and desires are, actually, usually quite explicable

          Really? I guess in that most women want to be married with kids and a house would make their desires explicable. But what if those things don’t interest a woman?

          When faced with a few different choices, why would anyone pick the inferior option for an oddball reason?

          But she’s not picking the lesser option, at least not to her, and attraction isn’t a choice. I don’t look at 3 men, determine which one is aesthetically more appealing and has a better job and then WILL myself to be attracted to him. It doesn’t work that way.

        10. Emily, the original

          It can’t all be lists and charts and graphs and Excel spreadsheets.

        11. Tom10

          @ Emily, the Original
          “Are you a Star Trek fan?”
           
          No.
           
          Are you part Vulcan?!
           
          Yes, I’m part Vulcan: my mother had a fling with Spock in college. Kinda explains a lot doesn’t it? 😉
           
          “SOME of the decision to pick someone should be emotional. It can’t all be lists and charts and graphs and Excel spreadsheets.”
           
          Okay Emily, unless we come to a compromise we’ll just go back and forth on this issue forever. How about we agree to meet in the logical (ha!) middle-ground and say that these decisions are best made through using a combination of both logic and emotion?
           
          So, using that as a basis, do you agree that “love” is as much a rational choice to be made, as it is an inexplicable sensation to be felt?
                                                                                                                  
          “Really? I guess in that most women want to be married with kids and a house would make their desires explicable. But what if those things don’t interest a woman?”
           
          Not necessarily; I agree that many women have little or no desire for the conventional trappings of marriage, kids and a house. But when women desire a particular guy it’s usually fairly easy – in my experience – to identify what it is about him that attracts her to him. I just don’t get the comments I’ve read here from women who write that they can be randomly attracted to certain guys, and not others, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to either: in my experience there’s always a reason.
           
          “But she’s not picking the lesser option, at least not to her, and attraction isn’t a choice. I don’t look at 3 men, determine which one is aesthetically more appealing and has a better job and then WILL myself to be attracted to him. It doesn’t work that way.”
           
          Hmm, I know Sparkling Emerald and Buck are big advocates of the “attraction isn’t a choice” concept; that we just have pheromonal or genetic attraction to some people and not others and there’s nothing we can do about it.
           
          However, I’m not convinced.
           
          I’ve always been fascinated by the plasticity of the human brain and learning how to master the ability to manipulate how it functions. Depression, stress, euphoria, anger, jealousy; these are all conditions/emotions which can be controlled simply by using certain physiological and psychological techniques. So it doesn’t a big leap of imagination to predict then, that one can indeed choose attraction if they just learn how. Maybe, as an experiment I might try to do it myself sometime! (Although I’m not sure if it’s a very kind thing to do).

    4. 6.4
      Nissa

      I’m with you on this one. I much prefer face-to-face rather than phone or text. For me it’s not about availability, I just miss the context of being with the other person that allows me to interact at a higher level based on visual cues.

      I also find that there are more misunderstandings with other methods. I’ve told men by email or over the phone,  “I’ll be home at 6:30 pm on Wednesday if you’d like to talk”, thinking I am being accommodating in not making the man guess when I might be available, or if I would like to talk on the phone. Not only did I not get calls on Wednesday night, but I did get texts Thursday at 11pm, and once a phone call at Friday 5am (from a man in my time zone, 30 miles away). Not only did this cause me to think there was a major miscommunication that might be habitual for that person,  but caused me to feel that their interest was in their own sexual options, rather than in me as a person.

      It should be noted though that  I am very much the exception. Most of the women I know are pleased when a man texts or calls prior to a date. But I have noticed a pattern that the more contact a woman requires, the more insecure in general she seems to be. The most confident women assume the man likes her and that any time away from her is irrelevant.

      1. 6.4.1
        John

        Hi Nissa

        Not only did this cause me to think there was a major miscommunication that might be habitual for that person,  but caused me to feel that their interest was in their own sexual options, rather than in me as a person.

        A man worth his salt will want to court you. You are right on here Nissa. How did you feel inside when you were seen as an option for sex instead of being seen as a person? The thing that is weird for me is when a woman thinks I’m not attracted to her because I’m not trying to rip her clothes off after the first date. So I have to say directly that I don’t do casual sex. I’m looking for a LTR. Sex too early also blinds me to red flags I need to look out for.

        As far as texting, I don’t care for it. I cannot read body language or voice inflections with it. It also tends to lead to over communication.

        1. Nissa

          I admit I was disappointed in being seen only as an option, when I wanted to offer so much more – love, appreciation, friendship. But to offer that to someone where it was not reciprocated would not have been a win for me anyway.

          I too think it’s weird when women expect sex so quickly, and can only surmise that either 1) it’s because they’ve come to expect a hookup culture in dating or 2) she bases her worth on being able to get men to have sex with her. Don’t get me wrong, I have friends who do this, but I’m seeing them after the event, when they tell me they had sex with a guy – in a tone of voice somewhere between hopefulness, sadness and disappointment; with eyes cast downward; with a turned down mouth; and a back and forth motion of one foot.

          I’m with you 100% on the sex too early makes me not at all objective. Body language and inflection too. I guess other people don’t pay as much attention to it. But for me, texting or talking on the phone is like watching a silent movie – technically it’s the same, but the data flow is completely different.

  7. 7
    Helene

    “Could someone explain to me why it is that when we switch the genders rolls in this statement then men are wrong for seeing it this same way?”

    It is important to remember that dating is dating, not a workplace equal opportunities programme. Whether we like it or not, the mating game is dictated by thousands of years of evolutionary biology. Fundamentally, ATTRACTION has to occcur – we don’t date someone because they fit a profile like a job description. The approach Evan suggests is the right one because it creates the right dynamic for attraction and bonding to occur. Men in general respond to challenge, to being proactive and to feeling free and in control. Women respond to being pursued and made to feel desirable. If a woman chases a man she likes, then even if he initially liked her, he will quickly feel TRAPPED. If a man chases a woman, she will not feel trapped, she will feel desired. If a woman really likes you, it is difficult to scare her off by showing too much interest. It is true that sometimes if you show a lot of interest in a woman, she will go off you, but this only really happens if she wasn’t that keen on you in the first place.

    1. 7.1
      Shaukat

      @Helene,

      Men in general respond to challenge, to being proactive and to feeling free and in control. Women respond to being pursued and made to feel desirable. If a woman chases a man she likes, then even if he initially liked her, he will quickly feel TRAPPED.

      Again, this type of statement is a reflection of confirmation bias and a sort of comfort with the status quo, which again is ok, but we should be honest about it. The last sentence is especially erroneous. A man will feel trapped if he is pursued by a woman who he only has low to non-existent attraction for, not if he’s pursued in general. In fact, if a man is pursued by an attractive woman who he has strong feelings for, he would likely feel a combination of elation and confusion, though the latter would not turn him off.

      If I understand Evan’s advice correctly, he advises that women should let men pursue because a woman can never be sure initially whether the man is interested in a relationship or just sex, and so by letting him make all the advances at the beginning, she can protect herself emotionally. There’s a bog difference between that and the view you espouse above. In fact, you’re making the same kind of spurious correlation and conflation of different factors made by PUAs: they see a woman who is attracted to an aloof, emotionally distant and manipulative man, and so they assume that it’s the bad behavior that triggers the attraction.

  8. 8
    S.

    I don’t know if this truly answers her question. It does about social media, but not really about the beta types.  They will eventually call a woman when they work up the nerve, but it could take days.  Now, of course the woman could just drop them if that style is not to her liking, but maybe she really likes the man.  In my experience, when people are insecure like this, it’s not going to improve any time soon. And it will show up with them not just in initiating courtship, but also in other aspects of the relationship.

    I recently was dating a man for about six weeks.  We went on five dates. His pattern settled into just calling me every two weeks, usually right before he wanted to see me.  If I said yes, we’d have a date.  I mentioned once that I’d prefer being called more often.  He listened and then went back to his every two weeks pattern.  That was his comfort zone.  I did some traveling, he had a death in his family and a couple of months went by.  By this time what attraction I had initially had for him was long dead. It usually died in the two weeks when he didn’t call.

    But he called back! And he wanted to see me.  I thought two months of no contact had been pretty clear.  Apparently not.  So I had to tell him I wouldn’t be seeing him anymore.  And he was actually hurt.  This is a man who hadn’t so much as sent me an e-mail in those two months.  I told him that our communication styles were different and there might be a better match out there for him than I.  And then he said, “Well, if I called more often could we still see each other?” I was actually dumbfounded.  We had had a similar conversation three weeks in and had he made that offer then, I would have said yes.  But months later?

    I know it seems like he may have another woman on the side or something.  But he hasn’t been active on the site where I met him.  He’s a very quiet, soft-spoken person.  If he’s getting laid elsewhere (hey, more power to him) he surely would have to had a more assertive streak than he had with me.  I was just so puzzled why he thought that was okay when I had mentioned a few times (sometimes teasingly, but then just matter-of-factly) that it really wasn’t.  I was actually stunned by the emotion in his voice because most men let go very easily once you say you’re not meeting them anymore.  I haven’t heard from him.  Maybe I will, maybe I won’t.

    But that’s the thing about betas.  I’m suspecting sometimes they do have some deep emotion in there, real feeling for the woman, but they don’t really know how to keep momentum going.  Even when you tell them what to do in words.  I’ve dated a lot of betas.  I feel safe with them and so I can open up and be vulnerable with them in ways I haven’t been able to be with more assertive men.

    It’s a tough thing. I have a question for beta men (use your own terminology here, I use the phrase just for expediency).  If you have to wait for a woman to initially (or continually, I don’t know) express interest in you, do you expect her to do that for the entire duration of the relationship? Under what circumstances will you be able meet her ongoing needs to be courted?

  9. 9
    John

    Tom10,

    You can call me old fashioned. It is true. I am not going to change my values because modern technology and modern culture says I should be into casual sex. The development of DNA testing and birth control are not strong enough forces for me to change who I am. When I meet a woman and we have a few dates and things are progressing well, I tell her what I want from a relationship. I am a man and I am direct. I don’t hint at what I want. When I told my last gf on date number three that I am not going to have sex with her until we have a committed relationship, she sighed and said that she really appreciated it and said she honestly felt the same way. I took the lead as real men do. I set boundaries which is an indicator to her that I am a high quality man. The trust level went up that night 100%. Why? She didn’t wonder what I was thinking. I just told her what I thought. She didn’t have to wonder if I liked her because I wasn’t pushing for sex. She also knew I wasn’t have sex with other women I was dating. I asked her to be my girlfriend on the tenth date. She accepted. The next week we sat down for two hours and talked about the future of the relationship, as well as past things we needed to make each other aware of. I have found that women LOVE to have a man take the lead and be direct about his intentions. Just not too early in the dating process. You can give me scientific data and logic until the cows come home. I know in my heart what works for me and I am sticking to it!

  10. 10
    S.

    Reply to Jeremy 14.2

    Wow.  I’m so glad you shared.  I’m surprised by your comment.  I don’t understand how in 10 years in a happy relationship you could possibly ever think your wife isn’t interested in you. I understand reciprocation, but you seem to mean more than that, I think.

    Why do you think you need (or needed) her to make advances?  And what is exactly do you mean by ‘more than mirror’?

    I’m curious. 🙂

    1. 10.1
      jeremy

      S., my point wasn’t to say that I feel insecure in my relationship – I do not.  But attraction waxes and wanes, even in committed relationships.  If I am always the one to have to initiate – kisses, sex, whatever – I begin to feel that she is not terribly interested in those things.  This is not to say that I don’t initiate much of the time, but I feel that she needs to do so as well occasionally to let me know that she is interested on an active level, not just a passive one.  I certainly felt the same when we were dating, and my point was that even now, years later in marriage, the same is true.

       

      I have always taken some issue with Evan’s philosophy that women should reciprocate men’s efforts passively, through mirroring and receptivity.  I acknowledge that for some men this is effective.  But for men like me it is insufficient.  I, for one, do not feel that a woman taking the initiative to kiss me is at all masculine.  It shows that she is interested, and that makes me more interested – if that makes sense to you.

      1. 10.1.1
        Mrs Happy

        Jeremy @ 10.1,

        Regarding

        “If I am always the one to have to initiate – kisses, sex, whatever – I begin to feel that she is not terribly interested in those things.”

        Having spoken with numerous married women who don’t initiate, I would postulate, she simply doesn’t want sex anywhere near as often as you do.  Also common is the feeling a woman would love to cuddle etc, but her husband will then want sex, so she avoids even non-sexual affectionate contact. Her sex drive is much lower than yours. That’s it.

        One counter-argument is, she should initiate sex to show her love, even though she doesn’t want sex.  I’m conflicted on this. Sex when a woman is not turned on can be emotionally distressing, or uncomfortable or painful (internal spaces don’t lengthen or lubricate) for her.

      2. 10.1.2
        S.

        I didn’t take that you were insecure in your marriage. You actually seem very secure in that.

        I do agree that attraction wanes and waxes in a long-term relationship.  And I do believe that generally there should be some give-and-take in relationships, on many levels, not just with physical touch.  And you’re talking to a non-passive person so I get it!   But if she isn’t as active in initiating, why might that be? (I have an idea why below but wanted to hear what your thought first. You know her best.)

        I have always taken some issue with Evan’s philosophy that women should reciprocate men’s efforts passively, through mirroring and receptivity.

        Evan’s advice is for the early stages of dating to make sure the guy likes the woman.  That’s mostly what I was talking about as well.  But your comment led me to wonder about long-term stuff.

         It shows that she is interested, and that makes me more interested – if that makes sense to you.

        Yeah, but that’s how most women feel as well. It’s just hotter when a guy shows he really wants you. ;-p Whether he’s calling you regularly, initiating ways you can grow together, or initiating intimacy.   I think beta men and women want the same things.   But most people and society are wired for men to initiate.   And that’s hard to get away from even if you date beta men and like them, like me.  Or you are a beta man, like you.  Questions that arise are:

        – If he really wanted me, he’d do the things other men do

        – After all this time, how can he still not know how much I want him

        I feel that she needs to do so as well occasionally to let me know that she is interested on an active level, not just a passive one.

        I hear you, Jeremy. Truly. I feel the same way about the men I date. Most here would say those men just aren’t interested enough.  But I know the men I date have issues (not even to do with dating) that affect how they interact with people.  They are usually aware and working on it.  At this point, I’m may have to skew older and find men on the other side of working with it.  🙂

        I don’t think a woman initiating a kiss is masculine. But if she initiates 70% of the time? If she also steers where the relationship is going at her pace, if she does a lot of the planning of activities, some would say she is in her masculine energy. Nothing wrong with that.  But that’s how some would see it.

      3. 10.1.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        Hi S. & Jeremy,

        “I have always taken some issue with Evan’s philosophy that women should reciprocate men’s efforts passively, through mirroring and receptivity.”

        Mirroring is just for the beginning stages of a courtship.  It’s based on the idea that men do what they want to do.  If he wants your company he will reach out to you.  If he’s not interested or only mildly interested (and maybe dating others he is more interested in) it will show in his actions, because he’s doing what he wants to.  As you transition further into a relationship, more dates, more often, becoming an official couple, you do enter a pattern of reciprocity.

        Speaking of reciprocity:  A woman nitiating a kiss, a hug, or sex with a man is hardly masculine behavior.  Seduction is a very feminine art form.  They don’t call them feminine wiles for nothin’ 😉

        1. S.

          Yeah, but Evan above says:

          The primary exception to mirroring comes in the form of beta/feminine men.

          Evan may not like that model, but beta men still want to be mirrored.   So that’s where his advice to women dating this type of men falls short.  I guess he’s basically saying either the woman stay in her masculine energy with beta men and enjoy the wonderful things about them and accept the not-so-wonderful things.  Or data someone even a bit more alpha and then you can follow Evan’s general advice.

          The thing is that sometimes it really isn’t a good idea for a woman to stay in her masculine energy whether she is with a beta or not.  It may work for him, but it’s not always good for her. But what to do? The man is who he is.

          Dating a man a bit more alpha (with balls as Evan puts it) is an idea but that’s hard to find.  Once Evan said ‘men don’t go both ways’.  He’s right in the most part. I do believe there are guys in the middle out there, but it’s certainly not the norm.

          I’m cheerful, though. 🙂  I knew what I wanted before I read this blog post and this discussion only clarifies that.   I am fascinated with the beta men and I hope that someday Evan delves more into this other than saying he doesn’t like that model.  Or saying men don’t go both ways and just pick on and live with it. (I’m paraphrasing due to time constraints.)   I believe there is far more nuance to the situation than that.  There is even far more nuance even on the spectrum of beta men and the women who date them. Neither is all feminine or all masculine even the majority of the time.

          So beta men need love too!  I hope to hear more about it here. There is actually not a lot of info out there, other than telling women to be more masculine, take the lead in the relationship, and look how well that worked out for that couple I know! LOL.  There’s gotta be more detailed info out there than that, but that’s what I’ve found.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I am fascinated with the beta men and I hope that someday Evan delves more into this other than saying he doesn’t like that model.

          S,

          Instead of assuming you know everything I say about Alpha/Beta, Masculine/Feminine from Why He Disappeared and my blog, you should join Love U. It’s longer, thought out, nuanced, and exactly what you claim you want to hear. Not giving you the hard sell; just letting you know that you’ve seen the tip of the iceberg and you don’t really know the 90% that’s underneath.

          E

  11. 11
    S

    Hi Evan,

    I wasn’t assuming. I even said, “I guess” because I was just guessing and gleaning what I could from what I read here, from Why You Disappeared, and from the little sample of the Focus program when you offered people a short membership.  (And from other blogs, books, programs I referred to in my last paragraph as ‘out there’.)  But if you do offer more on the beta man dynamic than what I’ve gleaned from those, that’s wonderful! I had no idea and not knowing that is one of the primary reasons I didn’ t choose to join Love U.   Glad the full spectrum of discussion and love for beta men reside in Love U. (Okay, I am assuming on that sentence, but I do hope!)

    I’m enjoying my dating break and doing some other programs for me right now that are in the same price range as Love U.  But I’m glad you replied because when I’m done with those I will definitely reconsider Love U when the time comes.  I simply think of these posts as the trailer, I guess?  But you have to watch the entire movie. 🙂

    S

    1. 11.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Something like that. Titles of Love videos:

      Beta Male Confusion
      Helping Your Beta Step Up
      Beta But Not Too Beta
      The 2 Qualities of the Best Husbands (guess what, they’re beta qualities)
      The Virtues of the Beta Male
      It’s Easier to Change Your Choice in Men Than It is to Change Your Personality

      That’s a sample from just one week in Love U. So yeah, you should consider it. 🙂

    2. 11.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      S,

      Evan has referenced on the blog, and I think there were a few points made in WHD, about the situation where an alpha woman has multiple failed relationships because she is attracted to alpha men and those relationships are fraught with tension because the two people are jockeying for control.  Their strengths and weaknesses don’t line up well, and after the bloom of the initial physical attraction wears off the compatibility and comfort needed to sustain the relationship aren’t there.

      Evan encourages these women to date more beta men that complement their personalities.  He has also said multiple times that beta men make terrific husbands because they are easygoing, kind, communicative, and supportive.

      That’s where doing the inner work comes in.  Really knowing what your personality traits are.  What your strengths and weaknesses are.  What in a man will make you comfortable and happy, not in a “OMG I want to jump his bones!” way but in a “I could have a good time just hanging out at home all day with him” kind of way.

      For instance, you find yourself attracted to beta men.  What exact beta characteristics pique your interest?  And what is in in your base personality that makes a man’s particular characteristics line up with yours?  If you like a man who is easygoing, is it because you are opinionated and decisive and therefore you fit well together when making plans for the weekend?

       

  12. 12
    S.

    To the Anon up there who recced Pat Allen:

     I looked up her book book, Getting to I Do. I don’t usually take advice just like that but I read a sample of it and was intrigued.  I got it today at the library today and, wow!  There were two things she said that I really have to think about:

    1) She strongly recommended that people either choose feminine energy or masculine energy.  That one not go back and forth between the two because it’s confusing to one’s partner.  And one’s self.  Not switch at all? Wow. She did say that sometimes really masculine men and really feminine women do switch as they get older and their hormones change.  And she actually said you could switch as long as you both agree and the other person agrees to take on the other role in the relationship.  But she says not to keep switching back and forth.  I think I and the men I date do frequently switch. Ah.

    2) I took her quiz on whether you have masculine or feminine energy. It’s a 15-question quiz so there is that.  But I scored feminine on 10 out of 15 questions.  Interesting.  And as I read, I realized that some of the men I dated might not have been that feminine.  Just 1) I’m impatient by nature and 2) They don’t really know how to lead. It’s not that they don’t want to.  Well, maybe they don’t want to all the time, but sometimes they don’t honestly know what to do.

    Very interesting.  I’m not sure what to do with this info but I wanted to thank you.  I could see how it had been confusing for me to want to be pursued sometimes and be led, and in other situations, absolutely not.   Maybe that why I love beta men because I didn’t really have to choose.  But I also grew frustrated at times at that too.

    Thanks, Anon!

  13. 13
    Elemental

    I bought and read Why He Disappeared in the spring and have dipped into it frequently ever since.

    At the beginning of the week a long-time friend (8 years) told me he wanted to move our relationship to more than friends and I said yes. Let’s call him D. Our meeting turned into dinner and drinks, we held hands and he kissed me goodnight.

    I noticed our friendship slowly changing a couple of years ago – not big things, just a little more physical contact. Then about 6 months ago he hired me (I have a small consulting business) and we started spending time together one-on-one (up to that point we’d always been together in a much larger group of mutual friends). Granted our one-on-one time was mostly work related, but we had lots of fun together and were getting to know each other better.

    D called the day after our conversation and he’s called every day since, but he’s been vague about a next date. Mostly we’ve been talking about and working together on a project for his company.

    Last weekend, before the handholding and kissing, I’d committed to joining our mutual friends group for drinks tonight, but I’m not going to go.

    It took me a while to get there though. This one was tricky – I went back and forth between “don’t change your life waiting for a guy” to the advice in Why He Disappeared. As D is likely to be out with our friends tonight, I’m going to stay away and do something else.

  14. 14
    Lisa

    If they were friends before they dated I can understand being connected on social media.   However, if not I don’t add men until we are committed.  It is overall just a bad idea.    So that was her first mistake.   I certainly look up all my dates and if their posts are public that’s one thing.  But adding them as a friend is not a good idea.   If you are both seeing other people, you may see they have been on a date etc and that could really screw things up on both ends.   Once you are committed however, I think you must be friends on social media.  I know many people disagree with this.  I think this is part of being open with each other.   Plus you should want to share the excitement of being with a new partner with your friends.  Big red flag if the guy you are dating does not want to do that.    I have found countless boyfriends cheating on me on social media, and they were always the ones that fought hard to not add me.    As far as mirroring, I think that it does work if you want that type of man.   I fully agree that the only way to figure out if a man is interested in you is to let him take the lead.  But most often the type of men that follow that pattern are also the type of men that follow that pattern in the relationship.   If you don’t want the man to be the lead in the relationship long term, be very careful about courting with men, who need to take the lead in that phase.    My thoughts are that you should be able to be yourself in all phases of dating.  If yourself is the person that sends cute emails or memes that remind you of him, then you should be able to do that, within reason of course, don’t go overboard.     I have tried Evan’s mirroring and it worked, I got the guy.  But the guy I got was the type that wants our relationship to be the same way.  Him always leading and me always following and that’s simply not me.

  15. 15
    Love Desire

    Really nice information about dating advice tips. it’ s more helpful for me.

    Thanks

  16. 16
    robert

    Short answer? No. I’d think you were stalking me! 
    Get it? Never ever do that.

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