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A few weeks later, he received pictures from her from their dinner together. They were very close in the pictures – hugging each other, her behind him with hands on his waist as he leaned against a car, him picking her up and dipping her, etc. I got very upset about how inappropriate I felt this was, and he yelled at me, insisting that they were not flirting (which they clearly were). I told him that I didn’t like him being friends with her because I felt it was not 100% platonic, to which he responded that they were “just friends” and I shouldn’t tell him who to be friends with. My problem is, it doesn’t feel like they are just friends, given that after their dinner together he wanted to see her again alone, and seeing the pictures she sent him that showed a lot of heavy flirting. He also admitted later that she had offered to have sex with him that night, to which he declined. He felt that admitting this to me should prove trustworthiness.
I feel like it’s extremely inappropriate to be friends with someone of the opposite sex who is clearly after more than just friendship. I am considering breaking up with him because 1) that night after dinner she asked him to have sex with her and he still thinks its okay to be friends; 2) he flirted heavily with her; 3) he lied to me about flirting with her when the pictures clearly say otherwise; and 4) my gut is telling me there is a problem here considering he wanted to go to brunch with her without me there. He continues to maintain his relationship with her via phone, email, etc.
I am already in love with this man and we have had a great relationship up to this point but I find myself having trouble trusting him now. I have never had trust issues in the past, and did not have them with him prior to this. I really don’t want to leave this relationship but am worried about his continuing fidelity. Am I being irrational or are my worries justified? —Kathy
For any of you who think that I always side with flirtatious men, take another look here and here.
So let’s sum up the answer to how to deal with a man you can’t trust:
You should NOT be in a relationship with a man you can’t trust.
A relationship with a man you can’t trust is going to be miserable for both of you.
You better make sure that the reason you can’t trust your boyfriend is because he’s ACTUALLY doing something wrong.
It’ll be miserable for you because you’re always on pins and needles, wondering about his whereabouts. You get concerned when he talks to women at parties. You check his Facebook page to see what he’s saying to his ex’s. You casually browse his cell phone when he’s taking a shower to see who texted him. You technically have a boyfriend, but you don’t have any of the benefits of having a boyfriend, because you always feel compelled to second-guess the status of your relationship.
And don’t forget how miserable it will be for him. After all, he’s the guy who is always being questioned when he comes home an hour late or takes a weekend trip with his guy friends. He’s the guy whose integrity is constantly being impugned. He’s the guy whose charisma you adored being told that he can’t display it to anyone other than you. Finally, he’s the guy who has to put up with a constant barrage of queries, regardless of whether he’s done anything wrong. I’ve been this guy and it’s an awful feeling having an otherwise delightful partnership being dissected to death because of your girlfriend’s insecurity.
Which brings me to my real point for any woman who is rightfully sympathizing with Kathy:
You better make sure that the reason you can’t trust your boyfriend is because he’s ACTUALLY doing something wrong.
Not because your previous boyfriends have cheated on you.
Not because he makes other women smile at parties.
Not because he maintains friendships with attractive women and writes things on their Facebook Wall.
Not because he goes to a strip club at a bachelor party.
You can only mistrust your boyfriend if he’s done something proactive that intimates that he’s not trustworthy. Like hanging out with a woman who wants to sleep with him. And lying about it.
But beware of the potential for you to create a cycle of lying in your man.
If you’re always on his case even if he has absolutely no intentions other than staying in touch with a girl friend — he’s going to feel rightfully insulted by your constant questioning. He will get the sense that he can’t tell you the truth because you won’t accept the truth. And he will find that it’s easier to lie to you about a platonic lunch than tell you the truth and be chewed out for it.
Believe it or not, that’s not his fault. It’s yours, for not trusting him.
And if you feel your hackles begin to rise at me for stating the male perspective on what it’s like to be a good person who is mistrusted, I invite you to reread my mission statement from the top of this post:
You should NOT be in a relationship with a man you can’t trust.
It’s that simple.
Yelling at me that some men ARE liars is useless.
Yelling at your boyfriend because you think he’s a cheater is useless. You’re driving yourself crazy and you’re making him even crazier.
If you can’t trust your boyfriend, for Chrissakes, do all of us a favor:
Find another boyfriend.
Lily says
Amen
adk says
Well, it sounds like you don’t really know him all that well, since you got into a relationship fairly quickly. Also he *yelled* at you?
Sounds like you need to get to know him better.
In any case, you can’t tell a man not to be friends with someone. It will only backfire. You yourself can decline a friendship with the person, but the best way is to befriend her too.
Kayle says
There is a line between being friends and blatantly flirting with someone and being sneaky and lying to your partner. That is not normal behaviour. No woman should put up with that, or man if it’s his girlfriend doing it.
katy says
I personally couldn’t be f#%!ed to even bother befriending the other woman or stay in that kinda relationship, they can both go jump as far as I be concerned….
Charlie Chaplin says
What about if what of his woman friends puts up a F/B post saying “He has a girlfriend in every port”? Shouldn’t be upset about that?
Detha says
As always Evan, I agree with your repsonse.
Steve says
Kathy;
Your BF if right, you can’t and shouldn’t try to tell people who they can be friends with. Your BF is also being probably being honest in that he isn’t cheating with this woman.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t heading in that direction. I’ve been friends with women where I did not even realize how heavily physical I was with her in public until people started talking.
It sounds like a boulder rolling down hill. If left alone it looks like it is rolling towards an honest “I never meant for anything to happen” situation.
Your choice is if you want to fight to prevent that from happening if you want to bale out to go find a BF where you will not have to deal with that nonsense.
amanda says
I think it is very hard to continue in a relationship where there is no trust. i feel if he cares for you he should not ignore your feelings. he should invite you to come with him if he is going to be with her. I think this situation will eventually cause more problems later. Its easy for others to tell you to leave him alone but they are not in love with him you are,but i think you need to make the wise decision and bail out before you get more involved with this guy. how would he react if it were you doing these things to him?
janine says
hi i agree i’ve been single for 20 years by my choice .. if you can’t trust ina relationship time to let the guy go…. i live incanada myself….
Jennifer says
It seems like women often feel they need to gather overwhelming evidence or catch their boyfriend red-handed in order to leave him. Here’s my thought: If he’s making you uncomfortable, and he doesn’t care, it’s okay to leave. You don’t have to work so hard to justify it.
I get not wanting to throw your relationship away over ‘nothing’. But in this case whether or not he’s planning to (or has) slept with this woman isn’t the point- it’s the way he is handling this conflict. He’s showing you his lack of desire or ability to problem solve with you, and that’s a good enough reason to end something.
Teresa says
I totally agree with that said and if he really cared about the relationship he would at least come to you as a man and respect your feeling and thoughts of the relationship and he would show that your relationship with him actually means a lot to him.
Deepti Nickam says
THis makes so much sense. Thanks…just cleared my head.
Jennifer says
This was an exceptionally intelligent, valudating and insightful reply. Thank you, Jennifer
my honest answer says
Yep, find another boyfriend. To be honest, I quit reading the letter half-way through because this guy crossed so many lines I was just waiting for Evan to tell you to GET RID! The list of reasons was so long.
Helen says
I agree with most of what Evan wrote, and would add this on top: There are other reasons to break up with a man beyond his being a potential liar or cheater (which this letter doesn’t provide any proof of). If you don’t like how he behaves around other women, such as you saw in the photos, or how he yelled at you, that’s reason enough to call it off with him. These behaviors don’t necessarily mean that he is a bad man. But if these are behaviors you, personally, cannot tolerate in a LTR, *regardless* of whether anything is happening with another woman, then break up sooner rather than later. You would be doing both of you a favor.
MLW says
That’s pretty harsh. The guy obviously is not concerned about upsetting you, so that’s the answer for me. If it’s upsetting you, and he’s yelling at you defending himself, there’s the red flag. My HUSBAND had female friends who I was sure wanted to sleep with him, but he did not have feelings for them. He’s a flirt by nature, so he would flirt. But in the end, he knew spending time with them without me bothered me, so I was invited and met them. And I don’t think he ever was with any of them without a group of people. They were fine. Did I become friends with them myself? No. But seeing me, and meeting me, definitely changed the tone of things.
And just to say it, Evan, you can trust your guy all you want, but that doesn’t make you trust the girl he’s with. Guys can claim whatever they want, but when they are with a woman who is determined for something to happen, even an “oops, I just fell on your lap” or “I didn’t mean to kiss you”, that happens. Girls can be trouble and some have no problem being the cause of cheating, thinking if it happened, clearly the guy isn’t so happy. And even the honest guy can get suckered. A truly decent guy wouldn’t be in that situation. If any of these girls tried that with mine, he’d be appalled. He takes infidelity really seriously and would never want someone to do that to him.
MMB says
Amen and Amen!!
helene says
I think some calm reflection is needed here. From what you’ve said, I think it is clear that your boyfriend feels SOME LEVEL of attraction towards this woman, right now. However, he’s conscious that he’s in a relationship with YOU, and for the moment he seems to want things to stay that way – that’s why he didn’t sleep with her. However, if there had been NO attraction on his part, he would have steered well clear of the brunch. Going to the brunch alone after her offering to sleep with him is an indication that he feels attracted to her, to some extent. So basically, he’s struggling with his feelings at the moment.
I think its important to remember that in any long term relationship, one or both partners will feel attraction to other people at times. The longer the relationship lasts, the higher the odds that an attractive person will cross his path – or yours. When that happens, the person in the relationship who is feeling the attraction to the new person has a struggle on their hands. They value the relationship they are in, but the new attraction provokes strong feelings of desire as well. Unfortunately, finding a new boyfriend won’t solve this problem, because this scenario is likely to occur in any relationship, at some point. it may be him, or it may be you, but a couple who make it through 40 years together without either of them feeling an attraction to someone else are either extremely, lucky, or live on a very isolated island!
So what can you do? Despite your anxiety and worry about “what is going on”, your partner really needs you by his side right now. He needs your support. If he is to overcome his sudden desires for this woman, he needs to feel bonded to you, and that your relationship is so much more worth it than losing you by going ahead and having a fling. Remember, this woman lives across the country, so presumably she’ll not be physically present, which makes things easier. If your partner cannot overcome his feelings and the lust doesn’t fade then yes, he may leave you for her. But for goodness sake don’t DRIVE him away by fighting and obsessing – this is one of those moments in life when you need to summon up all your inner strength and self control and show what you’re made of. Spend time, with him. Love him. Do things together that you both enjoy. Stop judging him and respect the fact that despite his obvious attraction, he has so far held himslef back from sleeping wioth her. Admire him for that. Yes, morally, it was not very nice of him to go to the brunch without you. He couldn’t quite resist that one, but he did resist having sex with her. He did that because of you. Like I said you’re going to have to deal with these situations from time to time throughout your life, WHOEVER your boyfriend/husband happens to be – might as well start practising! And take heart, these things CAN be overcome, fade and become a distant memory. Takethe right, supportive action to save your relationship, if you really want to keep it. Good luck!
zhuc says
Yes, a comment i agree with 100%. All the other comments are great and reasonable but i feel this approach is the best. There are bound to be times of uncertainty and attraction to outside party because we are only human. But, that doesnt guarantee that something will happen. In the above case however i feel the bf has over stepped the line. Personally, i feel it’s very wrong to even get into a position where a friend offers sex. Even worse is that he didn’t admit that was a mistake (getting himself into that situation). Whether to break up or not depends on how important the relationship is to you and whether that type of behaviour is something that you can be forgive.
Stephanie says
Thanks this would help
Emily says
Wow! Your reply is a lot better than Evan’s! I like your comment because I’m currently in a situation almost similar to the lady except that my man didnt yell at me. I guess if I just blantantly accuse him of cheating that will ruin our relationship. Your comment makes me think again. Thanks
Evan Marc Katz says
You mean you liked and agreed with her answer more because it validated your feelings more. Got it.
Emily says
I agree with her ‘calm reflection’. I take it for which part of her comment makes sense and which part is not since everyone’s relationship story is different.
Anonymous says
Your words couldn’t be more what I needed to hear right now. I’m in a similar situation and I’m taking this attraction and the flirting so personally, but my boyfriend and I have been very rocky the last couple of months and I can see that he is struggling with his emotions. He swears nothing physical will ever happen but I know that the flirting is still happening. I think he hasn’t felt wanted by me in some time and so he’s flirting with the idea of someone showing him interest. Instead of getting angry I need to find strength and prove to him that I do love him and want him.
Thank you for the reminder.
Tia says
im going through a similar situation trying to think about what I should do and honestly this comment helped me so much. I know I don’t want to give up on on my situation just yet until I know his feelings but this makes me feel like it could work out with the right recipie of time and patience which I’m lacking right now because I have so many questions for him. Again This helped me personally a lot.
Gem says
Yep, one good fight with Kathy and he goes off with “friend” because he needs an ear, and she wants to be “supportive.” A couple of drinks and “ooops!”
The “friend” wants him. The “friend” has offerred sex. The “friend” would think nothing of breaking these two up.
That’s not a friend. It’s an opportunist. He likes the attention, and maybe he feels things moved too fast with Kathy. Regardless, if he wanted to protect his relationship, he wouldn’t put himself in a shady situation or want to cause unnecessary strife with his woman. He’s defending his “friendship” with a woman who doesn’t respect his relationship. But hey, maybe he doesn’t respect his relationship either.
Chris says
I agree 100%. I’ve seen this happen many times to people and I can also relate.
Karmic Equation says
Agreed.
BeenThruTheWars says
4) my gut is telling me there is a problem here
Listen to your gut. That little inner voice screaming in your ear is your inner child. She is guileless and will not lie to you. If I could only go back and undo every mistake I’ve made by not listening to what I call my Little Voice… I could have avoided a whole lot of pain in life.
Terri says
He does not seem to care about your feelings. If you are uncomfortable, you probably have reason to be. “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” She will likely keep after him until he eventually gives in!
I do not understand why you question your feelings so minutely. It seems you do not trust him and your gut instinct is probably right.
Call it intuition, or the “still small voice”, call it what you will. I have found my basic instincts about a person, be it male or female, turn out in the long run to be correct.
So much over-analyzing…..
RubyScarlett says
Wait a minute! Isn’t there a double-standard happening here? Evan, are you telling us it would be fine if your girlfriend continued to be platonic friends with a man who made it clear he wanted to sleep with her, as long as she said it was just platonic? And that if she dis-invited you to plans that included him, that would be okay too? To what extent does Kathy need to catch him in the act in order for this to be a violation of their relationship parameters? The fact that Kathy is very uncomfortable with the situation and he’s telling her to “deal with it” says a lot right there–he doesn’t care about her feelings and discomfort. Obviously, they are not really, completely exclusive at this point, and he is not fully willing to “be her boyfriend.” Boyfriends don’t keep seeing other women with whom there is sexual tension, especially without the girlfriend present.
Rio says
Finally 🙂 *** Someone who is thinking the same as I– If this were you
Evan… I suspect your answer might be slanted in another direction!
You are right to question the motives of your “boyfriend with the “friend”.
Kristen says
Ok to anyone here who is making her seem like she’s in the wrong well she’s not. She has every right to feel uncomfortable. In really getin sick and tired of hearing people say oh this is normal oh it’s ok for your guy to think other females are attractive or it’s ok for your man that you are commited to go out for lunch or dinner with another (different) woman yea that’s on. WRONG!!!! None of that’s ok idc if it’s a friend or who ever it is the woman or man that you are with is the one you go out in personal lunches or dinners with what is wrong with people today and how they view an think things? Are you kidding me? No woman on this earth wants to feel that the same ways their man think of them are being thought of toward other women no woman wants that they want to feel like they are the special and only ones! I’m sorry if it’s just me here but I’m very old school and I’m only 23 it really saddens me to see how our generation is today with how they think and see things as “the norm.” It’s really pathetic. Here is the Solid real truth! You go out with someone try are yours no one else’s why keep looking when you already have someone what is wrong with people today you wonder why the relationship and marital statuses are more on breaking up and divorce you wonder why. Wow all I have to say is she has every right to be upset the fact that he still wanted to go with that woman to a brunch after Her self whoring around saying he wanted to have sex with him when 1 she should know that he is already taken and 2 the guy should know better and be outa there so quick that’s what I call a true man who runs from that who says no I already have the love of my life he obviously doesn’t love you because if he truly did he wouldn’t take some bitch skank whore over someone he’s supposed to be faithful and wanting to get to know you better. Sorry but this guy doesn’t seem the faithful type he seems like the I let others change my influence instead of keeping my own head strong of an influence. If I were a guy and I had a girl back at home waiting for me and I’m out with a “friend” an she wanted to have sex with me id be like ok I am taken I actually love and care for the woman that I’m goin back home to please get out of my way this is awkward. Not oh let me go out the next day to a brunch with some woman go just threw herself on me like really? Come on people really need to take a step back especially in this day in age an really ask them selves what the right thing to do is instead of being like everyone else who is obviously in a lot of denile and absolute bull shit views and ways. All I have to say is it’s a red flag that your oh so called bf would want to go out again with some woman who tried to have sex with him sorry but te bf should be running from that not wanting to get closer Because what’s the point of being in a relationship when he’s just going to act single. Like really what is wrong with people today call me old school but damn I will never get this world or people and the way they think. And girl u deserve way better than some moron who’s more interested in goin to a lunch with some skank than a real woman like you who actually has respect for herself.
Mfjdjd says
Bam!
Bettina says
Yeah. He sounds weak, at the least, even if he hasn’t done anything yet. Seems like she has a plan for him. I mean, what kind of woman behaves the way she does around a guy she knows is attached? We all know what kind. The kind you don’t want as a friend or anywhere near your boyfriend. If it takes two to tango, she’s cuing up the music.
You, too, could go and meet her without him. That might prove interesting! Match passive aggression with passive aggression. “My boyfriend has spoken so highly of you and says what fun you two have together–let’s go do a girls-only thing!”
Make sure to take photos of your gal pal outing, and make sure he sees them. As MLW’s example shows–it would change the dynamic.
Shouraku says
I have been in both Kathy’s and Kathy’s boyfriends position in the past and have developed a trick to help me work out this overly common issue, I call it the Candy Store analogy. When in doubt, I usually bring it up to my significant other:
You put a young child on a chair in the center of a large candy store and tell them that they are not to touch the candy under any circumstances while you are away. You then leave the child completely alone in the store with a view that would not allow you or anyone else to walk in and catch him without him having ample time to completely hide his misdeeds.
In this situation, there are three “basic” outcomes:
1) The child follows the rules and does not touch any of the candy. He may be tempted, but he does not budge from his chair, he is unbreakable.
2) The child sits calmly for a while, but eventually the allure of the luscious and delectable candy starts to wear on him and he has just one little piece. Since the piece of candy was so very good and really didn’t cause any harm, he decided to have just one more until, if left alone long enough, he is gorging himself. He didn’t mean for it to happen that way, it just started small and spiraled out of control.
3) The moment that you leave the store he leaps upon the candy and eats more then his fill, not caring about the agreed upon rules.
Which category a person falls into determines how I will respond to their actions. If I believe the man is unbreakable, then I would have no problem with him flirting up a storm with every woman in town. Why would I? I know that his resolve is unshakeable (this is what is suspect is the situation with Evan and his wife).
However, if I have reason to believe that the man I am with can be tempted onto the slippery slope, then I may to question (respectfully) his decision to have dinner alone with his ex who still wants him every Friday, or go on a weeklong ski vacation with his friend and his friend’s irresistible sister.
When you are in the early stages of a relationship, you don’t know what category the person you are with falls into. You haven’t had enough time and circumstance to figure out where they stand. You could give them the benefit of the doubt and treat them as a person from #1 or you could assume the worst based on past ills you have suffered and toss them into #3.
When a situation such as Kathy’s arises, I find it is in no way helpful to accuse or speculate. Instead, I prefer to ask my partner using this analogy. I always make sure to mention that none of the children in this example are “bad”. They could all be wonderful kind and caring kids just with different levels of impulse control, and since the relationship is new I am not sure which category my partner falls into. I then ask them where they think they stand. If they say they are firmly in category #1, then I give them the benefit of the doubt and treat their actions as such. If they say that they are in category #2, I usually say something to the effect of “ok, I trust you to handle your own life and will not bring this issue up again, thank you for being honest about who you are” and let the implications of the analogy sink in.
This has the distinct benefit of getting the other person to think about who they are and how they would react in a less accusatory way. If a person honestly realizes that they are in category #2, then they may think twice about allowing themselves to be put into potentially harmful situations. I have had more then one past boyfriend clean up his act once HE realized where he stood in regard to his self control (without being accused or forced to defend himself against crimes he did not commit).
I should mention, as I always do with my partners when the appropriate time arises, that I see myself in category #2. I have very strong resolve as well as a strong moral compass in general, however, I am not 100% sure that I am above temptation. Thus, I never let myself get into situations that have the potential to get “slippery”. I wont be spending the week alone in a shack with Brad Pitt, just to be safe.
Goldie says
First of all, to all that commented along the lines of “he’ll just sleep with his friend next time”, I would like to point out that this friend lives across the country. So, this particular act of infidelity – not likely to happen. That is not to say there won’t be other “platonic friends” down the road.
That said, how do we know he hasn’t slept with her already? Because he said so? That’s the same guy who said his friend was completely platonic, then leaked provocative photos of them together, then mentioned that oh, by the way, she’d offered him sex. But he refused. We know he refused because he said so, and because he’s never lied about anything else.
If this were my relationship, this episode, plus the yelling, would do it in.
Selena says
Ask your boyfriend how he would feel about you insisting on keeping a male friend who asked you for sex. While the two of you were together. He’d be cool with it? Wouldn’t be bothered by the friendship? Ask him what he’d do if you refused to give the friendship up.
Maybe you can get him to see your POV with a discussion like this. If not? I think you know the answer.
starthrower68 says
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has webbed feet like a duck, it’s a duck.
Jennelle says
One of my best friends is a guy. We’ve been best friends for years. He’s had a few girlfriends over the years as have I. Both of us have had to deal with this question from our boy/girl friends. We both say the same thing….. There has never been, and there will never be anything more than friendship. He’s not attracted to me and I’m not attracted to him in that way. We do talk about our love lives often and we both really enjoy having someone of the opposite sex to talk to about stuff. We do things together from time to time. BUT I have NEVER offered to have sex with him and vice versa. Even when he’s dating someone I don’t like or I feel is wrong for him I give his girlfriends the respect they deserve.
We are not a match in a romantic way. If if I ever offered sex, I KNOW he’d be a man and respect his girlfriend. One of the things I respect most about my guy best friend is his honor and integrity. It would be the end of our friendship as it should be.
In my opinion, It is NOT OK for him to entertain a friendship with someone that openly wants to have sex with him. If he does, my guess is he’s keeping her on back burner for a [email protected] buddy.
The fact that he’s not rejecting her tells me, he has little respect for you. I am sorry, but my opinion is, your days are numbered. Don’t invest to much of your heart and keep your dating options open.
I hope I haven’t hurt your feelings, but you did ask… good luck. SoCalSingleGal
http://theplaybook4men.wordpress.com
BC says
I’m new here, and found the site through some random Google search about hooking up with an old flame from years past…totally irrelevant to *this* post, of course, but…there ya go. I read several posts and found the conversations to be really interesting and well rounded, and I love the seemingly equal male/female ratio of participants in the dicussions I’ve read through so far.
The girl/guy best friends scenario is a slippery slope, or at least, it has the potential to be, in the eyes of each significant other involved. I think in a true long-term honest-to-goodness friendship bewteen a man and a woman, there actually is JUST that. Its a real and valued relationship based on any number of things….shared professional interest, lengthy history of knowing one another, growing up together, or on and on. These friendships tend to remain platonic as a result of one or the other not wanting to risk the valued friendship over a potentially messy hook-up gone bad, or also, because the role they play in on another’s lives IS a true friend and confidant, and as such, is an immensely important part of their lives…too valuable to toss away on the odd chance of shaking up some heretofore unawakend romantic longings. In these types of friendships, then I think the current GFs/BFs can feel pretty secure that these friendships are just what they are being portrayed as…a form of best friendship.
However, what the original poster seems to be falling victim to is the boyfriend who perhaps might have some lustful/romantic feelings toward his *sweet little innocent friend* (the one who very recently offered to sleep with him, in spite of her being aware of his REAL girlfriend waiting at home!). This is a different type of friendship, whci certainly sounds threatening to your relationship. These two seem to have an ongoing, unresolved flirtation going on…and a pretty open one at that. There is even some photographic evidence floating around. Proceed with caution…this is not a situation in which i would feel happy or cherished…not one little bit!
morgan says
I’m with Helen @ 7, what he’s doing is not necessarily wrong, it’s just wrong for you. This is who he is, if you can’t accept it and trust him, then he’s not the man for you.
I broke up with someone for very similar reasons about 15 years ago. He needed the attention from other women and I couldn’t handle it. He’s now one of my best friends.
RW says
@Shouraku #15:
Very interesting analogy. Loved it but I disagree with you on one key point. In my opinion, very few people fall in category #1. Many start out that way but the more time you spend alone in the candy store, the more “possible” and okay the possibilities seem. This is what I have seen anyway. To me, the very simple solution is to not spend time by yourself surrounded by so much candy. Like you, I believe myself to have “very strong resolve as well as a strong moral compass in general”. Cheating, emotional or otherwise, is unthinkable to me. Nevertheless, I don’t make a habit of hanging out in candy stores by myself. Sometimes, it’s inevitable and I expect my partner to trust me as I would trust him but I do not understand people who repeatedly put themselves in these positions by choice. Why allow yourself to face temptation if it can be avoided? To test your mettle? Even the strongest of us can and will break given the right circumstances…
Ruby says
Maybe the only reason Kathy’s boyfriend isn’t with the other woman is the distance?
Laura says
I agree with Helene. This is an issue that will reoccur repeatedly in any long-term relationship. You either trust your partner without getting the heebie-jeebies or you don’t. If you can’t do it, go find one who doesn’t mind having a ring in his nose. Some men feel more secure with a jealous insecure woman.
My parents have been married for 60 years. Never has the D word been spoken. They’ve taken separate vacations. My mom and I have danced with men and had them flirt with us and buy us drinks while my dad stood at the bar with his friends and had beautiful women hitting on him. My mom has gone out dancing without my dad with the neighbors. My dad doesn’t dance. My dad helps damsels in destress. Neither of my parents gets their noses twisted out of joint. It’s called trust and commitment.
My bf of 7 months and I are pretty much the same way. His parents were married for 62 years when his dad died last year. We do a lot of things separately and we have many separate friends. He knows I’m hot, he knows I’m getting hit on, I’m getting asked for dates and I have Oprah Guy Friends. (small community) He knows there is no place I would rather be than in his arms. He knows I need to network and become part of this community where he was born and raised, and I need to do it on my own.
We have trust and commitment.
The man is darn grateful I do not get angry at him over his goofy foibles. By not getting angry, but trusting him instead, the doors of emotional intimacy have opened wider and the depth is quite deep. Isn’t that what we all want?
There is no profit in anger.
Sonia says
Dear Kathy:
He hurt you, and I’m so sorry you’re going through this. You feel uncomfortable because he wants to hang out alone with a woman who asked him for sex the night before. Guess what? Don’t feel ashamed because you felt uncomfortable. Feel proud that you tried to talk to him about how you were feeling. Leave him. You don’t need to stay in a situation that will probably get even more hurtful. If he’s serious about you and he regrets putting you in that position, then he’ll come after you. But don’t worry about that right now. Give yourself a few weeks (away from him), and you’ll feel better that you’re not plagued by doubt and worry and pain from this situation anymore. You’ll feel better with yourself, your own sane calming presence, than with his presence bringing an unwelcome outsider into your relationship. Being around him right now hurts you. So leave that hurt behind.
Bettina says
@24: It sounds like she doesn’t trust him, though. She might have good reason not to. It’s just as misguided to trust someone who doesn’t deserve it as to mistrust someone who does. Only the risk is higher with the former.
shouraku says
@RW #22
I also believe that there are very few people in catagory #1. I myself believe that I am not, thus why I am in catagory #2. I may have very strong resolve, but am by no means unbreakable. Therefore, as you suggest, my one of my methods of not getting myself into trouble is to simply not let myself hang out in the “candy store” in the first place. Like you say, I just don’t want to risk it.
writestuff says
I was in a similar relationship with a guy; he was undeniably attracted to his sister’s best friend who was drop dead gorgeous. The best friend had no ounce of feeling for my then boyfriend, but she did make it a point to flirt with him because she had daddy issues. They would send each other “friendly” texts and stare at each other across the dinner table and so on…
What I’ve realized? If a person is going to be with someone…THE ONE…there’s no one else. If there is…what’s the point?
He/she should treat you the way you want to be treated; if at any point, something FEELS wrong…it’s because you know it IS wrong for you and it’s not what you want. When you find THE ONE…you’re respected and what you have is treasured and he/she wouldn’t do anything to tarnish that…even if other people are attractive.
That girl says
Agreed. Before you can let go with someone you need a foundation which means protecting the relationship and behave in a manner which shows the other person you are valued. You need years of doing this with any type of relationship to reap the rewards 🙂 I’ve just now experienced a similar thing and reading these comments helped me validate what I want and I look forward to meeting THE ONE who shares this view
Gina says
Please listen to what your gut feeling is telling you. If you do not, you will regret it later. Your ex may not be doing anything with this woman (yet), but the way he’s behaving is demonstrating that he has very little regard for your feelings. In other words, he is not showing you respect. If the shoe was on the other foot, I am sure that he would not like it and would probably break up with you as a result. You have to respect yourself by setting boundaries in a relationship and be prepared to walk if those boundaries are crossed. Best of luck whatever you decide!
Flower White says
Sometimes, women bug me by not listening to their guts and writing a thesis about it!
Dump the chump, move on. End of story!!
Chris says
Exactly! And those theses just cause more drama and headache, lol Intuition is mainly right.
Anne says
The most important point to pull from this – regardless of all the details involved in the scenario – is that you either fully trust him, or you don’t at all. It does you no good to sit around and mull over the details of what could/would/should/might happen, because you’ll never fully get the answer you’re looking for – you can’t live in his thoughts.
You also can’t control what he does. Some men who you’d never think would cheat end up cheating, but does this mean that you should avoid all relationships in order to avoid potential heartache? I think most of us would say that giving relationships a good, solid try is the much better option (heck, this is a dating advice blog!).
But like Evan said originally, if you just can’t trust him due to your “gut,” then you might as well end it. Unless you abandon your fears and let go of the “what ifs,” you will sincerely struggle to make positive progress in this relationship from here on out.
Joe says
Look, the thing that makes other women attracted to this guy is probably what attracted YOU to him, i.e. being flirty. To expect him to turn that off now that he’s with YOU isn’t reasonable. If that’s the type of guy you are attracted to, you should probably be prepared for something like this to happen again, even if you dump this particular guy.
Francesca says
Hmm
I believe that the beginning of a relationship should be easy. You should be all over each other and think of nothing else but each other. It should be fun, everything about that person should be perfect (even if its not). Any problem in the beginning of a relationship is not a good sign.
I have male friends who are not my boyfriend and my boyfriend has plenty of friends who are girls. However I still would be pretty upset at the situation you describe.
My boyfriend also has begun to grow his stubble as goodluck until his soccer finals. Yet he said I was welcome to veto this idea :p I haven’t. I don’t get the impression that your boyfriend would offer this.
Trenia says
Its situations like this that sometimes makes me wish women could be more like men. What she implied was that he’s done all of this stuff that makes her uncomfortable but she doesn’t want to have to bounce back from yet another failed relationship and meet someone else, so she’s trying to justify staying, not leaving.
Someone already said it earlier, but RED FLAG #1 is him yelling at her. She is not a child. Sounds like he’s trying to deflect what he knows is bad behavior. When you have mutual respect in a relationship, it’s up to the person who is doing the perceived wrong to self-correct, and if this woman’s boyfriend cared about her, he would’ve been more considerate about her feelings. Sure, he has a right to be friends with whomever he wants, you can do what ever you want to do, but why would you when your behavior is hurting the one person you’re trying to build a relationship with? Being in relationship is not about constantly asserting what you have the “right” to do.
Some other Steve says
I hope we all keep in mind that a clearly emotional woman’s claim that the b/f “yelled” at her is not the same thing as the b/f actually yelling at her.
Ruby says
Some other Steve #35
You can be both “emotional” and rational (and factual) at the same time, even if you are a woman.
Anni says
“If you can’t trust your boyfriend, for Chrissakes, do all of us a favor: Find another boyfriend.”
I find this advice ludicrous. She doesn’t KNOW if she can trust him, that’s why she’s writing in for advice. She hasn’t been with this guy very long, so she’s unsure of how to look at this situation. It’s not ‘her fault’ that he lied to her, and she didn’t say she’s ‘always chewing him out’.
So if something questionable comes up in the initial stages of a relationship that unsettles you, you should just leave and find someone else…even though you’ve invested time and energy and gotten somewhat emotionally involved…it’s that easy and logical. Give me a break.
I agree with the posters who’ve said the issue isn’t so much what he does or doesn’t do with this girl. The issue, Kathy, is that you were mature enough to state how you felt about the situation and he wasn’t mature enough to acknowledge your feelings and collaborate with you on working out a solution that works for both of you, thus bringing you closer and strengthening your relationship in the process.
You are only just starting out in this relationship and he is already showing you it’s his way or the highway. You either have to agree with his perspective on what’s going on or he just won’t tell you what’s going on. And according to Evan, that will be your fault.
I don’t know if he’s doing wrong with this girl, but I do know that by lying and yelling, he’s doing wrong by you. Tread carefully while you work out what’s best for you in all this. Good luck.
JA says
My wife used to use the term “yelled at me” when all I did was become a bit animated. She was very sensitive to this, and I’ve learned to dial down my responses accordingly.
In any case, I agree with Evan. If she can’t trust him, then she needs to end it.
As for men who get close to women besides their significant other, I’ve done the same, on and off, for three decades. It can undermine your relationship with your significant other. I never cheated in the true sense of the word, but I thrived on the attention I received.
It undermined my marriage. I’ve since learned not to mention other women, and I minimize contact with them socially. I do have good female friends, but the boundaries are clearly set. Even so, I never mention these friends at home.
LTK says
Life is too short to spend with someone who doesn’t share your philosophies on relationships,whatever those are. You deserve your peace of mind,just as your boyfriend deserves his. If the two of you are unable to achieve this,to make a decision together about other friendships and about setting boundaries, then you might consider seeing other people. That decision is a difficult one and so is the time afterwards-for awhile. Compare it though to months or a lifetime of arguements or suppressed resentment over the inability of the two of you to come to a good agreement about things. You are probably not going to change his mind. He is probably not going to change yours.There are others though who share your beliefs as well as his who may be better choices for a long term relationship.
Michele says
It sounds like the chance for temptation with his female friend is too great.
Lesly says
You souce he found a side girl
Quin says
I’m with rubyscarlett on this one
Been there says
If you I really love him then you need to discuss everything. Exactly how you feel about this situation. If you still can’t trust him then you should break up with him. Remember that it is your decision and all we can do is give you our opinions and advice. I wish you the best of luck 🙂
Neglected girlfriend says
I just discovered some “just friends” are way more than friends.
all those tired nights, all the distance, the excuses…all the attention and energy being spent elsewhere. I gave the benefit of the doubt time after time, never saying a word, smiling, believing.
And I’ve been made a fool
Warmfire says
I happily went along with my ex’s “friendship” with his female friend because I thought to behave jealously would be unattractive. Initially, he was spending so much time with me, I felt secure. Then one day he said he was going to her college graduation – she was younger than he and I – and that he had to drive quite a distance to go. His reason was that he would never hear the end of it if he didn’t go. I smiled and went along with it and honestly thought nothing of it.
Graduations are high-emotion, high-intensity events. After the graduation, he didn’t seem as interested in me. He was less communicative, less available, and then all out cancelled our holiday plans without explanation knowing I was off work and completely available to him. They were plans he initiated with me.
About two weeks later, he broke up with me never citing her as the reason. Two days later, he changed his mind, came back to me, said he was sorry, that he made a mistake and offered to go to counseling with me – something that never before came up about us. We got back together for a short while before I could see the relationship was going nowhere so I broke up with him and told him I needed a clean break meaning no contact for a while which he didn’t like because he wanted to stay friends.
In his disappointment, he sent me several texts proudly revealing that he was actually seeing this “friend” and that whenever he wasn’t with me or at work he was with her. He sent pictures to prove it.
Honestly, people will do as they please. If his relationship with his female friend is making you uncomfortable and he doesn’t respect that you are uncomfortable, then you have to decide if you accept this misery. Personally? His disrespect and selfishness would be enough for me to cut out and find a better man.
Nene says
I don’t think this is merely a trust issue putting it that way makes I seem as though she is in the wrong. He is in the wrong. This is a relationship. In a relationship, both parties have to decide to trust, love,and respect one another. There’s love here and trust (she trusted him enough to let him go out with another girl, twice! Let’s not forget that). I don’t see the respect.
The facts are clear. He is constantly in contact with another woman who is clearly romantically interested in him. That is not “just friends”. And knowing that, he continues to maintain the relationship despite knowing how it makes his girlfriend feel. He doesn’t try to limit it or set boundaries. He rather flaunts it and then yells at her When she brings up this huge issue.
Girl, this dude is clearly selfish and a bully. I say dump him. He has to respect you. It’s not about you trusting him (I’m sure you trust him enough that he won’t haphazardly cheat “on purpose” but we are humans and that is why we have boundaries), it’s about him respecting and acknowledging that he is in a committed relationship now. He needs to understand that and the need for boundaries. I bet you if you were the one doing the same thing, he would have dumped you yesterday. Dump him and maybe he will realize the importance of boundaries. You are not being irrational, you are being very reasonable. Nowadays people want to convince others that they can do anything they want, not minding the fact that they are playing with someone’s heart. Leave him and find a more deserving man. They are out there.
Marie says
OP, is this somebody you envision as being a life partner? Because he gets a big fat F for that. This is not about trust so much as loyalty. Your partner is supposed to have your back and be part of a team. His so-called friend is blatantly disrespecting both you as his gf and your relationship by repeatedly propositioning for sex. Doesn’t matter where she lives or how realistic any actual cheating was. If your partner was any kind of man he would have kicked her to the curb for her actions which disrespect his mate and therefore disrespects him and let her know in no uncertain terms that this is not ok. You wouldn’t even have to lift a finger to tell him. The fact that he hasn’t and actually yells at you and gets defensive means he’s not too loyal. This goes beyond flirting. If my guy was continuing to hang out with someone openly contemptuous of me and our relationship? No way would I let that stand.
Jakye says
No offense, but he already did something bad. The fact that you shared your feelings with him, and he doesn’t care enough to talk things over …bad relationship. The fact that the other woman offered sex, shows she isn’t just a friend.So the saying going like “oh we’re just friends” doesn’t apply. A friend doesn’t make that kind of offer. Probably he liked the attention, but he should know better. My ex had a female friend, I was ok with it until at one point I realized , everytime she had a problem she would come at my bf. He made himself emotionally available and above the s**t flirted with him with no shame, even going as far as saying” Wish you didn’t had a t-shirt on you, you would look much better without it” & the bomb was : she asked him to move in with her , which he refused but still is questionable. Tried to talk to him, and his reply was” you need to deal with ur insecurities ” , my reply was : ” You need to get straight your priorities in life , good luck & good bye”. I am not an insecure woman, but I do not take disrespect in a relationship no matter the guy I am with!
Rose says
Do you want a boyfreind who has freindships with women who offers to sleep with him?
Do you want a boyfreind who spend time and keep in contact with wpmen who clearly want more than friendship with him?
What do you want.
Tell him what you don’t want in a boyfriend and realtionship and see if he offers you what you want. If he doesn’t he isn’t a match and you don’t want him as a boyfriend. You are not a good match.
cath says
I actually really appreciate this… its so true. If someone is going to cheat, they will cheat. I think its difficult when you have been hurt… do yoi have any posts on how to learn to trust again? Its hard when it feels like everyone says men are so visual that they always want to cheat on you, they just dont. thanks 🙂
judy says
A man who I shall call Harry tried this on me. I was out of his life so fast when he said “hey, I’ve got this ex-girlfriend and she wants to stay with me” (I was living in another city at the time).
Answer “Fine by me. Enjoy, cos I’m going home”.
Leaving him flabbergasted.
Karl R says
cath asked: (#50)
“do yoi have any posts on how to learn to trust again?”
There have been several posts on the topic and lots of comments. I located one of my comments which is directly on this topic (and other people’s responses on this thread are also relevant).
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/how-can-i-learn-to-trust-a-man-and-give-him-freedom/#comment-378928
bluejay says
I have to disagree with you strongly on one point – any man who pays women for sexual activity or who utilizes women in that industry (including strippers) – is not a man who is really out for equality of women. Almost all exotic dancers were sexually abused as little girls. Almost all. This is an industry that THRIVES and survives only because little girls are sexually assaulted.
No man who supports it belongs anywhere near my bed. It’s time to evolve. There is nothing wrong with expecting the man one plans to have children with have a firm rule to NOT exploit women.
dee says
Clearly, he ‘s already had sex with her.yeah he admitted something. Just to make himself look innocent .. and yet still wants to be friends with her. AFFAIR!
still wants to be friends?look if he was serious about your relationship, he would confront her in front of you, have you with him on brunch dates. Saying to her this is my girlfriend!!! I went through a similar situation. And he recently cut ties with her.if he loves you he would do the same.! She’s a tramp not a friend! No respect for your relationship!
Colleen says
A lot of these comments are interesting, – I can’t agree with Evan, or, with many of the writers on this one. All the writers who are telling you to dump him, – well, ‘they’ are Not the ones in love with him. And Evan, ‘just go find another boyfriend, if you need to.’ Evan might not realize how rarely the entire (or even a 75-80%) ‘appropriate package’ who you have the ability to love presents himself to women. As a woman, – we might really Love, – only 1-3 times in our lives, more or less, it’s *Hard to find Mr. Right. Now, – think Mr. Right, NOT Mr. Perfect. There is No such thing. Take a deep breathe and let this Go. That’s right. Let it GO. This man, who you love, who you are in a relationship with and who says he loves you, has told you that nothing is going on with her. Now: Believe it. It’s done, it’s Over. Do not think on it again, do not question him. Do not “care.” Do not ‘Stalk’ his Facebook, do not question him. Do not act differently. Love him. Your freaking out over it is going to make it a self-fulfilling prophesy. He’s going to decide that he can’t be with a girl who can’t trust him. You are pushing him away, – into the very open arms of the other woman. Once you trust him and he knows it, – he will find it impossible to betray your trust, you will win. If, through the slight chance, he leaves you for her, or, cheats (don’t worry, – he will Tell you about it, if he does), then you decide what your next move will be. If he leaves you, then it was never true love anyway, and you don’t want him. No loss. Problem solved. *You are creating the ‘problem’ right now. Let it go.
Jane says
WHAT?! That a woman will only really love 1-3 times in her life is complete malarkey. A woman is capable of loving as many times as she wants to love in her life. The only thing holding a woman back to (really ONE TO THREE???) fewer partners is her own self.
There are plenty of Mr. Perfects, until the chemicals of “new” love trails off and then true colors start to appear. You can keep trying until you get the ENTIRE combination of characteristics IF YOU RESPECT YOURSELF. Settling for a guy that is 70 to 80% of what you want is cheating YOURSELF AND HIM.
You are encouraging the questioner to forego ALL rationality due to CHEMICAL ATTRACTION. It’s absurd.
For Kathy, who originally was wondering about what to do-I encourage you to NOT settle for a guy that doesn’t respect you enough to be COMPLETELY honest about what happened when you are supposed to be in a relationship.
You aren’t some chick off the block, you are supposed to be his girlfriend. If he respects you, he shouldn’t be going out with a woman that proposed sex to him the VERY NEXT DAY. Whether or not she’s from far away. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions VERY CLEARLY told her that you aren’t as important to him as you might have thought you were. He already has you in love with him, and he hasn’t decided whether or not he’s in love with you. He isn’t sure.
If that’s okay with you, that level of disrespect, then by all means treat yourself to more of it. A man will ONLY respect you as much as you respect yourself. PERIOD. It goes the same the other way too. If you allow what happened to slide, don’t expect it was a one and done kind of deal. Patterns tend to emerge with men who do not take their relationships seriously. Any woman also attracted and can’t see his dedication to you will see him as fair game, because emotionally he isn’t focused like a laser beam on YOU.
I’ve flirted with men I didn’t know had a girlfriend . The ones who love their girlfriend and aren’t interested don’t behave as your “man” did. They sing their girlfriend’s praises, and even if they thought of that other woman as a good friend, he’d be twice as pushy about making sure you were around for the second meeting.
And why in the heck wouldn’t you want to meet “a friend” when the relationship is so new and you’re so in love? A beautiful woman who is “a friend???” You should have been at the dinner just to confirm the trust you believed you had. Maybe you were scared that you didn’t have what you convinced yourself you had. I’d been over that like flies on poo to verify that it wasn’t my “new” love feelings speaking instead of reality.
Being honest isn’t always easy, but self reflection wouldn’t be such a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with having your pride and expecting to be adored by the guy you’re in a relationship so that you feel free to adore him back. No reason to adore a turd though.
I advise a good dose of self respect before you make your decision!!! If you were someone I knew and loved saying this, I would pity your lack of pride in wanting to dismiss such obvious warning flags. Ween yourself off him if you must but don’t lie to yourself for crying out loud!
I have never regretted leaving a guy that didn’t treat me right, I’ve only ever regretted staying with an unworthy guy too long. It’s a WASTE of time, and the REAL catch might be missed while you’re playing games with a LYING boyfriend. The pictures were CLEAR according to you, well then it should be clear that it’s over.
Debbie says
Why don’t you go get a male friend, go have lunch or dinner dates, take all kinds of huggy photos, and see if he is ok with that. I’m pretty sure he won’t be.
andrea says
If shez insecure its bcoz hez making her feel DAT way… Loser guy.
Iosono says
Honestly Evan, I think you sound a bit ignorant, mainly because a man who loves a woman would not put her in ANY situation that makes her feel uncomfortable. Kathy is RIGHT in feeling what she feels mainly because what he is doing is wrong.
HE planted the idea that him and this woman were more then friends when he began doing things that wasn’t normal. If he invited her everywhere before and then for some unknown reason decides to dis-invite her then that is something to be suspicious about.
The fact that you say that its Kathy’s fault for not trusting him is not only one-sided, but untrue. Many women lose trust in the person they are with because of things that the PERSON has done while being in a relationship with them. Sometimes an event or etc can cause a person to feel as if they cant trust this person for whatever reason.
The reasons you are speaking about (the old boyfriend cheating, for example) is misguided. Try to see where the MAN is wrong in this situation before you condemn Kathy’s feelings.
What YOU have to understand EVAN is that the situation can be avoided if some MEN would think before they do things. Posting things on someones Facebook wall is okay as long as there isn’t any INAPPROPRIATE comments there. Kissing, hugging, or touching is INAPPROPRIATE when it isn’t your mate. People who are friends with people in a relationship often have no respect for a their relationship, and this disrespect will continue if he is enabling the “friend” by taking photos, and hanging out with her while she is alone. In the “friends” mind she is the better match because she has all his attention and I am sure she knows that what he and her are doing is wrong, but why should she stop if he isn’t putting a stop to it?
Bottom line is that sometimes people can do things which can make a person decide that they can not be trusted, and it is difficult when someone is in love to just break up with the person because of something like this. Sometimes you have to stop being such a MAN and know that certain things arent good for a relationship, especially when it involves another woman.
Evan Marc Katz says
Gotta work on your reading comprehension, Iosono:
“Which brings me to my real point for any woman who is rightfully sympathizing with Kathy: You better make sure that the reason you can’t trust your boyfriend is because he’s ACTUALLY doing something wrong. Not because your previous boyfriends have cheated on you. Not because he makes other women smile at parties. Not because he maintains friendships with attractive women and writes things on their Facebook Wall. Not because he goes to a strip club at a bachelor party. You can only mistrust your boyfriend if he’s done something proactive that intimates that he’s not trustworthy. Like hanging out with a woman who wants to sleep with him. And lying about it.“
You see that? I sided with Kathy. But you didn’t think I did because I wrapped it in a more nuanced package that didn’t immediately make men wrong. Why do I suggest that you might have trouble doing this? Mainly this line: “Because a man who loves a woman would not put her in ANY situation that makes her feel uncomfortable.”
What if you’re uncomfortable with me talking to my ex-wife, even though we share custody of a child? What if you’re uncomfortable with me taking a business trip for three days because you’re insecure that I might meet another woman? What if you’re uncomfortable that I watch internet porn when you’re away visiting your mother in another state? Merely the fact that YOU feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean that I have to change. And if you insist that I should WANT to change because I really love you means that you either a) don’t understand what love is or b) don’t understand men/human nature very well. I’m not going to apologize or change if I’m NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG. If I AM doing something wrong (like Kathy’s boyfriend), that’s a different story entirely. But your premise that a husband will never put a woman in an uncomfortable situation if he loves her is not true. If SHE’S uncomfortable based on HER insecurities, there’s not much HE can do about it – and I would advise any man who has a girlfriend who can’t accept good/normal behavior to find a different girlfriend.
Susan says
I understand what you are saying about a woman being paranoid and letting that destroy her relationship. In this situation however, I think the word for what Kathy’s boyfriend is doing to her is gaslighting. If he wants to be alone with women who offer to sleep with him and having his girlfriend there is an inconvenience, then he should be single so he can. Sounds like he’s narcissistic and wants to have his cake and eat it too. I get the points you are making, but you’re mixing advise about making sure a woman isn’t being irrationally insecure together with advise to a woman who isn’t. It seems like Kathy’s boyfriend is trying to establish boundaries early on that he can do anything he likes and if she doesn’t tolerate it while waiting at his beck and call then she’s at fault. One thing that seems like an alarm bell to me is they got serious fast. Narcissists and abusers move in quickly on a target, before you have a chance to see any faults. The fact he yelled at her also shows he has a temper and was probably hiding something. Liars often retort with anger when being caught. He also is showing low empathy for her concerns. Sure, women are sometimes paranoid and irrational. In this case I think Kathy should re-evaluate the relationship, because she’s probably going to find down the line he’s lying about a lot more, and this was just a test to see how much she’s willing to tolerate and stay with him.
Evan Marc Katz says
You seem to have missed the part where I agreed that she shouldn’t trust him.
Susan says
I didn’t “you’re mixing advise about making sure a woman isn’t being irrationally insecure together with advise to a woman who isn’t.” It seems a lot of people did miss that though when I was reading through the commentaries, because the writing was bogged down with advise which made it sound like women should make sure they have a legitimate reason to be upset before they get upset. The problem with people like the boyfriend is this article is they will make the person questioning them feel like they are the ones who are wrong or losing their minds. “Believe it or not, that’s not his fault. It’s yours, for not trusting him.” No, if someone intentionally lies it’s definitely their fault and not the fault of someone for believing in them. If he lied about the details of a sale of a house or condition or a car, he’d be charged with fraud. No, if someone lies it’s with malice and that is blaming the victim if they did trust the liar. I was simply pointing out things like if someone you don’t know well moves too quickly or seems to good to be true they probably are and those are red flags a lot of people miss.
Julia says
I have to say, trust is just a much easier emotion to deal with. My boyfriend is friends with all 3 of his exes. Its no wonder, he’s a good person, why wouldn’t someone want to be friends with him? People break up for many reasons, its often complex, sometimes they still like one another as people. Trusting is the easiest stance to have, I don’t lose a moments sleep over his friendships.
Megan says
It’s not about your insecurity. It’s about feeling disrespected. If it was the other way around , he would feel the same. It’s natural to feel worried because YOU care about him AND yourself. If a guy offered to have sexual relations with me who was just a friend, I would no longer hang out with him out of respect for my boyfriend. I care enough for my boyfriend to not ever put myself in a situation that would ever make him feel uncomfortable. That is why you are in a relationship with a person… Because you CARE about them… And thatINCLUDES their feelings whether their petty and insecure or not. You need to voice your feelings. If he doesn’t acknowledge them them your relationship is unhealthy and you need to LEAVE and find someone else.
Maggie says
I hear this kind of complaint from women every single day. I actually received a call from a man who is “in the doghouse…again,” last night. The guy had cut off all his old, long-standing, platonic female friends for the sake of his relationship -but he’s in trouble because he lied about not knowing who was calling. (Hint: It was an old, platonic friend.) I’m a relationship coach, but I do read Evan (the genius) for insight. Basically, Evan is 100% correct. You want to make absolutely certain that your man is doing something wrong, or else it’s a serious hit to his integrity.
Personally, I prefer the guy I’m seeing to not have too many females fawning over him, but he’s an amazing man so that’s going to happen by default. The one thing that would bother me is if the man I was dating exclusively, decided to engage in a deep “connection” with another woman. That would make me worry, because when you take all that communication you’re supposed to be having in your relationship and you give it to someone else, it can cause a rift. I do try to be the “cool girl” as often as possible, but it’s hard when I know he’s chatting (as casual as it may be) with other females. Maybe I’m wrong?
meyo says
Real, honest and profound friendship is utterly normal among human beings, regardless of sexual tendencies, political views, age and cultural backgrounds. Friendship is NOT and WON ´T ever be in any way real if there is sexual attraction of any level. Friendship is sexless…..
Finding someone good-looking or attractive it does not mean one is sexually drawn to somebody…. we all have different likes and it happens often that we can believe someone (either sex) is attractive but it is not our type……if your boyfriend or girlfriend has a friend that is attracted sexually then it is not a friend…and we all know when someone is attracted to us especially when is somebody that spends time with us like friends do…. and there is no excuse to deny it or maintain the relationship…..if they want to maintain that “friendship” is because they like the attention and feeds up their egos….that is one form of cheating….. also, real friends can be affectionate with each other but never interact physically to the level of closeness as with your partner.
I am a male, mid 30 ´s and always believe on friendship (different kinds and levels)…..I have female friends of very different ages (24-75), male friends (21-80), gay and lesbian friends (25-55)….all from different backgrounds (social, cultural, etc.)…… and I interact exactly the same way physically with all….never inappropriate or out of context….. I hug them all in the same way….our souls are connected…not our bodies….. my body is only reserved for my girlfriend, my full soul too, and my entire heart…… Many many times I have had to hear lame excuses from people telling stories of getting drunk and making out and having sex with friends (depending on each other ´s sexuality)….and I always ask the same: For instance, if you are heterosexual and get sexual with your friend (female) why don ´t you do the same with your male or gay friends then?……
I have met very interesting people that I found to have a great connectivity but also felt their attraction for me, and every time I told them that it was impossible to be friends like that and stopped any contact….. life is much more than simply throwing principles and loyalties for SEX or filling up our insecure egos…..
katie says
leave him.
the same thing happened to me but i trusted him so much that i even became friends with that girl but after we had the small fight he broke up with me and married her within a months time.
starthrower68 says
Good grief. It would’ve been far too easy for him to just set you free. If he married that quick, he wanted her all along.
Lanie says
Well.First off this girl friend of his that he insists on keeping knows he is with someone and she is trying to seduce him into sleeping with him and he admits it. Then she sends photos to him in the hopes of stirring trouble to obviously break you up so she can have what she is after.Sleep with him basicly. And strange that he sees her as such a great woman friend when she is trying to get him to sleep with him knowing he is in a relationship.Dump him. He obviously is not as into you as you are into him. That happens. He is disrespecting you and allowing this other woman he has obviously slept with since now he wants to be alone with her now. You have to respect yourself and don’t let him run all over you trying to ease you into accepting his cheating ways.
SuperWoman says
Preach!!
the realest says
Smh ok all you had to do was talk to him and reverse it.. I know in damn well if you were hanging out with a guy and he said he wanted to have sex, your man would be mad as fuckkkkk… if it was the other way around the guy would of did the same get mad and say Na I don’t want you to be friends let a lone even talk to him, I know everyone is trying to be optimistic but lets be serious here..
archi says
hey kathy, i can understand how you r feelling because the same situation is happening with me from past few months but stil my bf didnt agree to break his frnshp wd that girl n lie to me everytime. Anyways its very difficult to brokeup and forget someone so easily so i think you should talk to him once again about the matter and still if he yells at you say him you are leaving him foevr. if he really loves you he wil stop you or try to convince you and ask you to forgive him and if he dont that means he never loved you..so talk to him again.. GOODLUCK!!
Simple says
i agree. There is no “right” fighting here. She may have had intentions, he declined, he told you… If you don’t trust your mate you will only drive them and yourself crazy. Think about your own actions on a girls night out. If you can’t do something then that you wouldn’t do if he was there… Think like a man. Him admitting that she offered sex is his way of saying, “see I’m loyal”. If you force a man to decide it won’t usually work in your favor. Even if he wants it to. Ego. Think like a man. Speak with respect and listen to what you each reveal to each other. If you think you are being disrespected, the bus comes by every 15 minutes…
Drea says
Thing is why would you continue being friends with anyone who would try to break you and your significant other up? That’s not friendship! Friendship is being happy for each other, not being a homewrecker! My boyfriend’s ex friend tried to break us up and you know what? That’s why they’re ex friends! Because you don’t need people like that in your life. The fact that this guy insists on being friends with this girl is a red flag.
Victoria says
My ex husband had a friend who was a girl. I did what all these new age women and men said and gave him trust and space, even when he told me they kissed but was me he wanted to be with, she invited him to come stay at hers when we had a fight. Turns out the little tramp had been bad mouthing me all along and encouraged my ex to take me for everything i had and to lie to me and to leave me for her. Turned out he had sex with this woman and didnt tell me until after he left me….. for her. So to all those new age people telling people to trust their partners with the opposite sex…. go take a hike and wait till it happens to you. I will not tolerate a man i am in a relationship with to be overly friends with females, especially not ones who are attracted to my partner or my partner attracted to them. End of. Men, treat women with respect and maybe you wouldnt get accused of cheating. If you are taking your moods out on your woman all the time, especially when she is just being her normal self, and you belittle her, ofcourse she is going to feel there is someone else. A man should never treat another woman better than his own partner. If he does ( and this goes for women too) then he deserves every accusation coming. Try being a bit more sensitive to women if you expect a woman to man up about stuff. Men and women in general, stop trying to seduce people in relationships and then complain when you get called homewreckers and tramps. Dont act like one and dont get called one. New age people to me are just walking excuses for cheaters these days. Rules are there for a reason. Perhaps many need to grow up a little more yet before they realise the benefits of rules. I gave up a male friend for my partner im with now because to me your partner is everything. You should be willing to sacrifice all for love. Your family, friends, belongings. If you cant do that then it isnt love in my eyes. If your family or friends love you they will support you to be with your partner that you love. Love means nagging too or do we all forget our mothers chasing after all our butts nagging us to do stuff because she loved us? Guess she is an overprotective control freak too if a woman naghing her partner is. Immature is what i call complaining about someone nagging. Dont do something nag worthy. Should think yerself lucky because if it was yer mum nagging you you would get a slap and more if you didnt live up to her expectations. Perhaps we are now raising brats that believe they should never be moaned at for anything because they feel they are entitled to allsorts of freedom. If you want freedom, dont be in a relationship. Simples. If you want love then do all it takes. Make sacrifices. Grow up.
Noemi says
Victoria: It seems like, regardless of what your actions would have been, your ex-husband would have cheated on you whether or not you allowed him to have female friends. Just as they say, a man (or woman for that matter) will cheat if he/she has the intent to do so.
The problem is, you mentioned you “gave him trust and space when when he told me they kissed”. To point out the obvious, this was much more than just a platonic relationship, and I wonder if he told you as a way to slowly break apart from you.
Men are attracted to women all of the time, and vice versa. It really boils down to self-control and character. It seems that you are blaming the other woman when it was your husband who was married and became an active participant in this affair.
You should not have to sacrifice all for love.Perhaps compromise is more appropriate, but if your partner makes you separate yourself from your friends and family (unless they are truly toxic), he is not a good partner to begin with. And no partner can really force you to do anything. Love isn’t about controlling one another.
Cordelia says
I wouldnt bother talking to him about it anymore. You had your say, he disagreed…loudly. I’d pull back from this relationship and start dating others. He will either get the message, straighten up and start valuing your feelings, and make amends by changing his actiona and reactions or he won’t and will do as he pleases instead. But if that becomes the case, it was the eventuality anyway. You can’t talk someone into or make them behave the way you want, but you can clearly define your boundaries and keep your dgnity when someone oversteps them.
truth says
What this guy said is true…..have been having trust issues with my boyfriend but I think am going to try what he said……..thanks for saving my relationship in advance
Drea says
Something similar to this happened to me. My boyfriend and I have been together for 4.5 years. A few years ago, a mutual friend of ours from college invited my boyfriend over to her place while I was away on vacation and straight out asked him to have sex with her. She knew I was away and tried to get my bf to cheat on me with her. He refused of course, but thing is he also cut off all ties with her… he deleted her number, blocked her on facebook, and was truly disgusted and never spoke to her again. I cut ties with this “friend” as well. It’s good that your bf didn’t cheat on you, but the fact that he is flirting with her and would continue being finds with anyone who tries to break you guys up is terrible. I truly would dump him.
pamela says
This article does make the assumption that the criteria for ‘having done something wrong’ are the same for everyone. Everyone’s boundaries are different, you should know what your partner’s boundaries are and your partner should trust that you don’t cross them and vice versa. So I agree with this article mostly, except that it implies that only when someone actually does something sexual with another person they are doing something wrong. I would not be comfortable with my partner having an intimate friendship with a woman who does not see him as just a friend and who actively tries to seduce him. I don’t care if nothing is going to happen between them or he sees her as just a friend. the friendship with her alone I would think is inappropriate and would cross my boundaries.
My boyfriend has a friend who’s a girl who clearly does not have feelings for him and vice versa, I am okay with that.
Aen says
All the guys who commented here and say that guys can have platonic relationship with a girl they find attractive are definitely lying. Psychological studies say so. If friendship alone is what he is after, you would not have to go the extra mile of spending time with her every now and then. Friends are friends no matter how close or far they are. Spending way more time with her with no particular reason at all and willingness to put your relationship at risk is a “no no” for what thet consider as “friendship”. You definitely have no trust issues. Break up with him. A man worth trusting is a man who values your feelings and never put himself in a position where he knows he might be tempted. We are humans and to say he is not tempted to that sex offer is simply ridiculous. It only takes time before he succumb.
eula says
you’re so right…
lisa says
Firstly, your bf should NOT be yelling at you for such matters.
It is true. You have no right in telling who your bf can or cannot have as friends. But when it concerns a girl who has no respect whatsoever towards the fact that your guy already has a gf ( you) and behaves like he doesnt have one, then yes. You do have a problem.
Sometimes, these are not ‘over thinking things’ or ‘over reacting’. Sometimes, these are red flags. Real red flags.
1) that night after dinner she asked him to have sex with her and he still thinks its okay to be friends; 2) he flirted heavily with her; 3) he lied to me about flirting with her when the pictures clearly say otherwise; and 4) my gut is telling me there is a problem here considering he wanted to go to brunch with her without me there. He continues to maintain his relationship with her via phone, email, etc.
Just look at the points that you’ve written. No boyfriend who has respect or love for his gf, does this. He is very CLEARLY crossing the line.
Get this. If he really thinks that he’s doing nothing wrong, and that the relationship is platonic and that he only loves you, then he should be able to sit down and listen to your side of the story and understand where you come from. If he wants to earn your trust, he should be reassuring you as many times as it takes, and proving to you via his actions that there is nothing between him and that girl. People who genuinely love their partners will not want to see their partner in pain. They will try to ease that pain.
If the roles were reversed, and you were the one who had a close male friend who is interested in you and your bf is in pain seeing you all chummy with your guy friend and then acting as if everything is platonic, wouldn’t you try to ease his pain? To reassure him ? To prove him wrong and even go so far as to severe that friendship if you’ve found valid points in your bf’s defense ? You need to tell him that you would do that for him because you love him. And that if he loves you, he needs to start proving it. Words without action mean nothing.
Girls like this are trouble. They start off bit by bit, slowly, pushing the boundaries further than they should go. It is bad enough already that that girl is disrespectful enough to try those things on your bf but it is worse when your bf is actually reciprocating and then lying to your face about it ! As a couple, both of you are obligated to protect each other and each other’s feelings.
The sad truth is that you’re going to have to work up the courage to leave him. This can be really hard when you’ve already invested in him- energy, effort , love. But you can walk away.
I disagree with how “deal with it” Evan’s response sounded like. He very clearly made it sound like it was so easy to dump a person that you’ve already harbored genuine love for. Well, it is not. And he ought to have more sympathy and a more understanding tone when replying. Hope you find a good solution, Kathy
Fran says
Most of this I agree with, some bits…ehhhh…
You’re right. She needs to trust her boo. I know because I’ve been this woman before. HOWEVER, maybe I’m lucky in this regard, but her boo also needs to be someone worth trusting. My boo is a patient man and he is VERY understanding. That’s probably why we’ve worked out. I communicate my feelings very well and he does his best to empathize and be compassionate and passionate. He is exactly the type of man I was supposed to meet as I worked on my issues.
You say that it’s the girl’s fault if the dude starts lying about his platonic luncheons in order to avoid confrontation. NO! Lying is never the answer. It just makes things worse! You ask a girl to try and trust you and work on her, but then you lie to her just because you don’t want to put in the work of “explaining.” She doesn’t sound perfect and it sounds like she has trust issues…but if part of being committed to a partner is agreeing to work through those issues (if you choose to do so). It sounds like she wants to and it also sounds like he’s will to try. DON’T EVER LIE TO YOUR PARTNER.
I told my boo, “I know I have trust issues. I’m working on it, but when you lie or are secretive about the most mundane things, then it gives me reason to worry and I have trouble trusting you.” He understood and now he’s totally transparent. We both are. THAT’S called being an adult, I think.
Christine says
If he truly valued you he would stop seeing this woman period. If male or female friendships affect a relationship they need to end.
Desiree Ciak says
Lol imagine if you went out with another man, and your bf saw pictures of that man touching you and picking you up? Then you admitted to your bf that the man said he wanted to fuck you? And when he stated he felt uncomfortable with you remaining friends, you yelled at him, basically choosing this man over your bf?Pretty sure he would feel insecure, too. Don’t be dumb. He is not the one for you- he doesn’t love you, or he wouldn’t be intentionally hurting you like this. He would rather keep an open door for this other woman who he already knows wants to fuck him (which means he probably wants to fuck her too). Move on.
eula says
follow your instinct,, you have a right to feel emotionally safe in your relationship.. you don’t need a guy like him..
Renee says
Hmm… WOW!! Okay well if I’m not mistaking, did that whole bit I just read after reading her story just pretty much justify thr man’s side and his feelings and make the woman’s feelings of anykind irrelevant? Or maybr I’m just trippin. Naw I don’t think so. I do agree on the whole bit of trying to tell your boyfriend about who and what friends he can have, honey it just doesn’t work like that. We don’t have that control and a man is gone do what a man is gonna do reguardless of your feelings, and sometimes it’s not always on purpose, but it’s the truth. Now as far as your story I just read, yeah she would have had me fucked up all the way around and so would his ass, because at the end of the day she don’t give two fucks about you and your feelings and secondly she went above and beyond to disrespect you, oh and let’s not forget the “Good Ohh Boyfriend”. Whom for some reason would even allow his friend to even disrespect him like that and her like that. That’s not a friend, and for his ass to allow some shit like that to happen and feel as if telling her was gone make anything better was one dumb ass move bro. Lmaof!! When he already knew how she felt about her already to just turn around and add fuel to the fire. They both looking to get they ass whooped. He was blantly disrespectful bro reguardless of him telling her what she tried to do or not. And to keep it even more real with you we really don’t even know if he went through with it or not and just because he trys to make himself seem all innocent and the “Good Ohh Boyfriend”, don’t mean shit because he was still disrespectful. Fuck all this professional shit just keep it 100. So take your sidebar ass remarks and leave them for the birds. Only one other thing I do agree on him about and that is if you don’t trust him, or he gives you a reason not to trust him then it’s time to go because trust and believe there is someone out there who will respect you and let no friend nor family break that. I’m just saying. And if he has let that happen how many more times will he until one day it does happen? And he is disrespecting you for not having any regards about how you felt about the shit he told you. That just proves how many fucks he really gives. Ugh!! And this dude has the nerve to sidebar with him. GTFOH!! Hope all works out, but if not just remember he not the only one boo.
Antonia says
“He also admitted later that she had offered to have sex with him that night, to which he declined.”
And he insists on being her mate? Yeah… just get the hell out of there. Fast.
cindy says
Why is it always about pleasing the man.If he knew it bothered you then why would he do it. Any women in their right mind would question this.This man wants his cake and eat it too. This is the kind of shit that causes cancer.( to the woman) or to the man if situations were reversed. why is he hanging out with her if she wants to have sex? If you can handle it try throwing a party , invite her, give him truth serum( alcohol) and see what happens.
Gladys Aguiniga says
UM NO, girlfriend. Screw what these other stupid men think. You should definitely LEAVE HIM. We are WOMEN. We know when we see flirting, and if they’ve been heavily flirting, and he’s denying it, also CANCELLING YOUR PLANS to put that b*tch plans before yours, DEFINITELY don’t even trust him at that point, and she literally asked to have sex, LEAVE HIM if he insists on staying friends.