DISCOVER HOW SMART, STRONG & SUCCESSFUL WOMEN (THAT'S YOU!) CAN FINALLY Find Your Man
DISCOVER HOW
SMART WOMEN LIKE YOU CAN
FINALLY Find Your Man
Take this short quiz
to discover what you need to do now.
Take this short quiz now
After a fantastic third date with a new guy I’m very interested in–dinner, live music, and coming back to my place where we talked until 2:45 am (did not have sex or even make out), he gave me a kiss and left without saying he’d call. Now I’m racking my brain to see if I did or said something wrong. It’s only been three days and I know I should calm down and be confident that he really likes me, as you suggest. I am continuing to make plans to meet other guys. But THIS guy is the one I’m interested in. How can I stay sane while waiting to see if he’s going to ask me out for this weekend?
Thanks a lot,
Roxanne
Roxanne,
By the time you read my reply, I predict that you will barely even remember this guy.
Wait, that’s not true. You’ll remember this guy. He won’t remember you.
This is one of the things that I know to be true about dating.
It’s a big ol’ revolving door — and it’s only our unrealistic set of expectations surrounding it that cause us to get hurt so frequently.
So let’s take a step back and observe. Forgive me if I leap to a few conclusions, since I don’t know anything about you personally.
This is one of the things that I know to be true about dating. It’s a big ol’ revolving door — and it’s only our unrealistic set of expectations surrounding it that cause us to get hurt so frequently.
Let’s say you met him online. How many men have you corresponded with on your dating site? 50? 100? 200? 1000?
How many of those men turned into first dates?
How many of those first dates turned into second dates?
How many of those second dates turned into boyfriends?
How many of those boyfriends lasted more than six months?
What we see when we take the 35,000 foot overview on your love life is that it’s really, really rare for a relationship to take off.
If you’re like everybody else, it’s a trial and error. Sometimes, you get lucky. Sometimes you don’t.
I went on over 300 dates before getting married. I got second dates with most of them, but some refused to see me a second time.
It’s really not that mysterious. Every man you like doesn’t like you sufficiently in return.
As for the women who I really connected with, I “committed” to probably ten women in that time. We were exclusive for 1 to 8 months. I dumped half. Half dumped me.
This is just called dating.
It’s really not that mysterious.
Every man you like doesn’t like you sufficiently in return.
You’re very attuned to that part.
What you don’t get nearly as upset about are the many men who are very interested in you that YOU’RE not excited by.
Should these men — who ultimately don’t stand a chance with you, no matter how pleasant your first date was — get UPSET? Should they rack their brains and obsess about what they did “wrong”? Should they keep calling you over and over to see if you’re interested simply because THEY’RE interested?
This is the blind spot of single people.
Women think it’s perfectly fair to ignore an email from a guy or refuse to return a phone call so he can take a hint.
Yet a man is a player or a liar or a jerk for not being sufficiently interested in you.
This ain’t that complicated.
If he’s interested in you, he’ll follow up in a couple of days, max.
If he’s not interested in you, he won’t.
Your level of interest in him is entirely irrelevant.
And the lesson to be learned is that, if this kind of thing happens over and over (and based on your emails, it does), it would seem to be prudent to not get too excited or emotionally attached to a guy until he’s called himself your boyfriend.
How do you do this in real life?
Well, I wrote an entire book about it. It’s called “Why He Disappeared” and if you struggle with the same issues that Ashley does, it’s probably time for you to pick up a copy.
And yes, there’s a money-back guarantee.
Grace Pamer says
And/or he might call you any day now as he’s just been busy. I know with my hubby when we first got together he was just lousy at calling for a while. It wasn’t anything against me, it was just the way he was and thought nothing of it. So don’t beat yourself up about it as he may be just as into you – 3 days after all is not a long time and life gets very hectic.
But as Evan rightly says he may not be that into you. So don’t wait by the phone indefinitely. It’s a case of playing the percentages (not romantic I know but then not everyone locks eyes on their future partnet passing each other on an escalator in the Paris Metro and then bump into each other in a coffee shop hours later). You may well break as many hearts as they break yours. That’s why you just have to keep confident, have good friends around you and trust in yourself because one day, one way or the other, you will meet the right person and probably when you least expect it… trite I know but happens more often to my readers than I can possibly mention.
Good luck and stay positive
Grace
Amy says
Great post Evan, yet again. I have to say that I’ve had this type of thing happen so many times, that I’ve become almost too good at not getting attached to any one guy. Sometimes it feels like I’m not interested in anyone anymore because I’ve trained myself to yes, be open, (and no I don’t feel jaded), but to not get vested emotionally. Sometimes I worry that a good guy who is right for me will move on because I am not able to show enough interest in him, like I’ve become a little shut-down. It’s as though I’ve turned off my ability (or willingness?) to become attached to another person. I used to feel so hurt and rejected all the time if guys didn’t follow-up after a date or two, that I was in a perpetual state of depression. I was determined to work on myself and now it seems like I can’t get interested in anyone. I guess the upside is that it will take a pretty sweet guy to break down that barrier. I wonder what other experienced women daters would say about this.
Franks says
Hi, I feel very strongly sometimes after dates. Especially when the guy has really ‘worked’ on me! You know, we had great rapport and he painted himself in such a great light instinctively selling me on all his best points : ) Stroking my back, patting my knee etc etc.
Begin single and not being touched everyday or getting that kind of attention, it’s very affecting. I feel a bit like a console where someone has pressed every single button all at once. Rather overwhelmed and longing for him to call but at the same time wondering how I can really cope with that much ‘data’ coming in all at once.
Anyway… so yes I do feel hurt if he then doesn’t call and confused too. They want to charm you so much and then go cold it’s tough.
So what I’ve started doing, to try and avoid the shutting-down effect is to try and trigger a good crying session. Rather than pushing the hurt feeling down I try and bring it up. A bit like vomit really : )
Put some time aside for myself, listen to some rousing music and imagine how lonely and sad I am. Tears. Feel like shit for a day.
Then hey presto feel fantastic a couple of days later. Next.
: )
Karen says
Wow, that was so well put. That is exactly how I feel–like system overload or finding water after being in the desert for weeks. It’s all too much sometimes. I just had a third date where we went hiking and spent several hours together. It was really special. He took my hand to guide me; he kept touching me. He wanted to do something post hike only I had other plans. I went to hug him goodbye and he kissed me on the mouth. He seemed to really like me so why hasn’t he called in 3 days–we had been texting/calling frequently before this date. Trying to figure people out can make you crazy. I like the crying idea you suggested. Or meditation.
willa says
or medication.
Bonnie says
I really like this. I had a tendency to shut down/block feelings as a defence mechanism too. I recently realized that pushing those feelings down did me no favours whatsoever. The feelings come about so they can be felt. And so, now that I’ve begun letting them happen, the icky’ness of a guy letting me down (through no fault of his) just lasts for a short time and then it’s much easier to move on. Feel the feelings. We’re supposed to have them. It’s part of being human.
Simone says
LOVE THIS
I feel a bit like a console where someone has pressed every single button all at once.
Kathleen says
Evans right. Its my experience an interested guy would have called by now.
The simple answer to the question is you DONT WAIT. You go on with the things that bring you joy and passion in your life and that adds to your attractiveness
Even if Im madly attracted to a guy these days I don’t attach to an outcome especially not from one date that I thought was great.
Jenna says
I’m always shocked at how women get invested and excited about a man as early as dates 1, 2, 3, hell, even 5! Great early dates are meaningless! Of course, go ahead, go out and smile and be warm and friendly, but to think it means anything is insane. Even as a fairly emotional, feeling woman who wants a relationship, I can tell you it’s rare that I give a shit what happens by date 3, and that’s because I understand the fickle nature of dating.
However, I still struggled with some of this in the past despite continuing to accept dates from other people, having a rewarding social life and pursuing other friendships, and doing exciting things that had nothing to do with dating. The biggest thing that turned it around for me was learning to have faith that if some guy I was invested in and liked wasn’t calling or stepping up, a better man would eventually, so no worries – and even if no great man ever came along, my life would be fabulous anyway. It was really hard to swallow that, and didn’t initially feel natural, but I’ve put this into practice a couple times recently and reacted inwardly and outwardly in a gracious, classy way to men who didn’t do what I wanted, and I felt so much better. Of course, part of this transformation was making sure I really did build a cool life filled with things and people I was passionate about – a life that any man would want to be a part of or even envy, and that would sustain me no matter what- so if this woman doesn’t have that maybe that should be one of her priorities.
GL says
After a long time I’m just getting there myself. Thanks for this comment.
Maggie says
I wouldn’t say it is insane…….I would say it is human nature.
Fiona says
This is two way risk as men meet just as many women who are not interested in them as vice versa. The difference is that men who are interested don’t have to sit around wondering if women are interested in them for a few days. They just make contact and those who are really keen in my experience usually can’t wait for long to call (often within hours). Even men get excited about early dates if they are very keen on a woman.
nathan says
I disagree with Evan about the phone call/contact thing in general. You’ve already been on three dates – if you really like him, contact him. You don’t have to ask him out. You can simply call to say hello and give him the opportunity to ask you out again. And if you’re not comfortable doing that, then don’t and wait. Either way, if the relationship is meant to be, a single phone call or text isn’t going to make or break anything.
With that said, here’s what I see. You’ve been on three dates. You’ve had fun, but there’s next to no physical intimacy occurring. Or it didn’t occur on the third date, in your apartment no less. So, either the guy is really conservative/reserved, or he’s not really into you. Odds are the latter because even guys that don’t move fast sexually tend to want to make out if they’re interested in a woman. I have had plenty of experiences like this. Going out for a few times, enjoying the company and having a good time. But that’s all. You can’t take it personally. As Evan points out, the vast majority of first dates don’t lead to long term relationships.
So, although my take is somewhat different, I think Evan’s conclusion is basically right. He’s not really that into you. If he were, he probably would have made more of a move in your apartment. Don’t take it personally. It’s just how things go sometimes.
Jackie Holness says
When a guy is interested, he acts like it. Period. End of discussion…Sorry…
Dawn says
We do have such a double standard when it comes our interests vs theirs.
I too used to get very upset when someone didn’t “feel” the same way I did. Now I thank them for not wasting my time.
Sometimes I ask…especially if I really did think they were interested. Sometimes I just let them disappear…especially if I wasn’t all that excited myself.
I like what Evan says…This is DATING.
Simple
Kathy says
Amy @ post#2, I have gotten like you are now.. I was “hurt” so many times through internet dating because I took everyting so seriously at first. My husband had died and I hadn’t dated in a long time. When I finally ran across someone I “really liked” and he expressed interest in me I took it too seriously. I basically “chased him down when he didn’t call when he said he would”! Boy, did I learn from that experience. I got my heart broken and decided to move on.
An old boyfriend came back into my life and I am dating him now. Now, the one from the online dating site that I fell in love with is begging me for a chance to get serious with me. I had totally backed off from him, and now he is chasing me!
I too, got a little jaded from men expressing interest and then backing out somehow. So, I decided to not care as much.. and now, unfortunately I don’t. I closed off a part of my heart for this man and now I don’t know if I can get it back. Amy, yes, I do think that we care too much sometimes, close down, and then have a hard time feeling like we once did so easily..
hespeler says
Fiona 5,
It’s difficult for guys too. If I call a girl that I’m really interested in and she doesn’t call back or waits a day or two beofre sending the thanks but no thanks text, well that day or two is spent in a lot of nervous anxiety waiting for the phone to ring. When reality sets in that she wasn’t interested, all the typical feelings of rejection set in.
The thing that is maddening is that it always seems to be the one that you’re most interested in that doesn’t return that phone call, isn’t it?
That said, I’ve learned to not take early dating scenarios that fizzle out personally. I used to think that the other person had all these options and that I wasn’t interesting enough for the woman to spend amymore time on me. I then began to realize that most of these women were still toiling away online, weeks, months, and years later. So everyone is struggling to find that special someone.
If you’re dating around and getting a lot of second, third, fourth dates you’re probably doing pretty well and par for the course. It only stands to reason that every once in a while you’ll come across one that isn’t interested in you or maybe not interested enough to spend anymore time on. That doesn’t mean that the other options they’re exercising are that much better, it just means they’re making a choice…it may not be the right choice. I know I’ve cut some women off who may have turned out as a better option for others that didn’t pan out. It’s just the way it works, it’s not pleasant but it’s dating.
If someone cuts you off in the initial stages, you really have to have a “good luck, knock yourself out finding someone better’ attitude. Not in a malicious way but in a way that instills self-confidence because an early rejection really doesn’t mean that much at all.
Also I agree that a lack of physical intimacy by the third date would be a bit too platonic for me and I may lose interest. Though there’s no rhyme or reason to it because I’ve had pretty intense intimacy by date one or two that never led to date three so who knows…
Teddie says
Hmm…I wonder if something in the apartment turned the guy off? Maybe the 12 cats were too much for him, or maybe he picked up on the fact that she was a vegan by what was in her fridge/pantry and that’s just one of his deal-breakers. Each date gives us more information about the person we’re spending time with, and he probably gathered enough info by date #3 to decide that she was not a good match. I absolutely agree that men who are interested will show it, and since most encounters don’t turn into long-term relationships I’d say she’s lucky she found this out early on. Now she is free to find the guy who’s looking for a fellow vegan and shares his love for cats, because he IS out there….
rox says
Hahaha! I love your comments!
Greg says
Ok, I get the “i am not into you” argument, after three days but rarely do I ever get a thank you call from the woman, though I do get texts often. As a matter of personal taste, if the date was ok, but not great, and if the woman calls to tell me she enjoyed our time together, it would motivate me a bit more. Of course, there a ‘personal signals’ at the end of the date and I am sych into those moments, but sometimes the goodbye (esp the first date or two), can be very modest.
Yes, as a man I do what I want. Personally, a call back to me does indicate interest and I do like like. I am not waiting by the phone, but from my POV your cause can be served a bit better if I know you level of interest.
Greg
Rochelle says
The OP shouldn’t feel like she’s “waiting” on him to call in the first place. This is one of the reasons I believe in dating more than one guy at a time. Part of dating is a numbers game. No point in shutting your options down when this one guy isn’t committed to an exclusive relationship as your bf yet (and may never be). And try to find the balance of being open but not being emotionally invested in the guy you like if he hasn’t asked you to be his gf yet.
If your life is full enough with things to do outside this one guy and you are open to other guys, you won’t even really notice so much that he’s taking awhile to call. I mean 3 days is awhile to not call for a guy who is really interested but there are sometimes exceptions. Either way if you open yourself to dating others, chances are you will end up meeting a guy who is being more consistent than this one.
A lot of us tend to act like the guy we are really excited about is our “last chance”. I still struggle with this at times when I really like someone and it may be premature to know where it’s going. Instead of worrying about the outcome, what I do now is remind myself if it doesn’t work I’ll be fine because I had a life before him and I will still have one if it doesn’t work. It just means that someone even better for me is around the corner.
Charrron says
I love this!
Alexandra says
A third date that ends in your apartment at 2:45am without so much as a makeout session? I agree with nathan (#6) on this one. Either he is extremely conservative/reserved or he’s not attracted to you. Either way, it doesn’t really matter why. Ask yourself if this is really a guy you want? I once went on a second date with a great guy who failed to make a move on our second date, even after driving me home from the nightclub at 2am. I assumed that he wasn’t attracted to me. I later found out that he is a very conservative Christian. Could be a great catch for someone. Not for me. Weeks later, I met my current boyfriend and I couldn’t be happier.
Ruby says
I wouldn’t call him at this early stage. Even if there wasn’t a makeout session, I would probably expect a passionate kiss at the end of a good 3rd date. Better to weed out the less interested parties as early as possible. That’s the problem with dating; so few couples are mutually interested, but your future boyfriend is the one who is really into you, and sees you as more than a friend who’s fun/interesting to talk to.
artie says
I’m in a similar situation too, yet still offers gushing compliments (my appearance, intelligence, and work skills) and obviously flirts with me like crazy at work every week.
Just can’t tell if interested or not. Too many mixed messages. (*sigh*)
artie says
I’m in a similar situation too. Doesn’t call, yet he still offers gushing compliments (my appearance, intelligence, and work skills) and obviously flirts with me like crazy at work every week.
Just can’t tell if he’s interested or not. Too many mixed messages. (*sigh*)
Still-Looking says
Perhaps the guy wanted a make out session and he picked up the vibe that she wasn’t interested and then he lost interest in her. Either way, after 3 dates fading away isn’t a cool option — a phone call or in person “I’ve had a great time getting to know you but…” explanation would be much nicer.
Rochelle says
Hi Artie, going on what you shared in your post, don’t read his words–the compliments, read his actions– the not asking you out. You know what helps me in those situations where a guy flirts it up so strongly, as if he’s about to get on his knees and propose and ,yet, doesn’t ask me out? Instead of being so disappointed that this one guy isn’t asking me out, I take the attention from him as a compliment without putting any real meaning or expectation behind it. Don’t think to yourself if a guy flirts, it means he will call/ask you out. Rather just keep in mind it happens that way sometimes but it isn’t guaranteed.
Alyssa says
I was joking with a friend the other day that I’ve lost all ability to get excited about a great first date, and I think it’s a good thing. Dating is SO MUCH EASIER when I just let the guy lead and I’m not constantly obsessing about every little thing. Besides, as a woman dating online, there is ALWAYS another one around the corner.
Also, I make every effort not to take anything personally. You may never know why he didn’t contact you again, and unless this is a dating pattern that might indicate you are doing something to turn most guys off, you may as well assume the reason has nothing to do with you. Maybe he realized he wasn’t ready to start dating after all, maybe he ran into an ex he wanted to get back together with, you just never know.
M says
Dating culture disgusts me. Why the hell do people treat it like it doesnt matter? I dont date. I cant open up to a person and be intimate with them, and then have them just not be interested or make ‘excuses.’ Its a bit sickening and very sad that finding a mate has become a sort of circus and game. Im not a white woman and I dont see why people treat dating, relationship, sex, personal information–all so casually. It just saddens me. I do not treat myself casually, so I dont do the same to others. Maybe I take things too seriously, maybe Im the crazy ones but most of these comments about treating dating simply as passing candy, is crazy to me. You cant control others, but you can control yourself! Dont participate in these ugly games!
CaseeFace says
Amen! I find myself thinking the same. I’ve even questioned my sanity because it seems that everyone else around me takes dating as a game. So frustrating! Wanna date? Haha
Didi says
Absolutely.
Karmic Equation says
Dating is supposed to be fun.
If it’s not fun for you then most likely it’s not fun for your date, which is why it appears you don’t get too many second dates that lead into a relationship.
If you’ve ever loved little boys and understood them, then understanding men is pretty easy. Men are just little boys in men’s bodies. They want and need to be carefree and have fun in life. That is not to say that this fun, carefree SPIRIT is mutually exclusive from maturity. There are grown men who love their grown up toys (boats, cars, motorcyles, etc.) but will go out and work their asses off every day to provide for themselves and their families.
However, for some reason, women as they age, seem to forget that life is supposed to be fun. Relationships can and should be fun. If we want men to love us, we need to know how to have fun.
Men want dating to be fun. Women want dating to be not-fun? Why is that? I don’t get it.
Learn to have fun, women. When you know how to have fun and joke around and not take things seriously that shouldn’t be, men will gravitate towards you.
As Evan has stated many times, “Men fall in love with happy women.” Happy women know how to have fun.
If you’ve lost your playful spirit, then most men aren’t going to stick around.
Tania says
Finally! I am a white woman (bot sure if it’s relevant), but this thing digusts me, too. I almot don’t date – I am very picky and have to have more conversatins with the guy to give him my number. That’s what happened a week ago. I met a really sophisticated guy that I like a lot 2 – 3 months ago. Since then we exchange conversations on a daily basis. He asked about my FB, I told him I don’t go there, because it’s stupid. after several weeks he asked me for my number and just last Saturday I gave it to him. But he still hasn’t called. I ask myself why? When my vacation ends I’m going back to work and things will be hard for me – I want to avoid him, because real men doen’t make a promise, especially a phone call, and just forget about it. But if I play cold turkey maybe he’ll think he got me and played me. Why? Why would you try so hard to get a woman’s number and never call? Either he’s a pussy, or he’s a sociopath and enjoys himself by messing with other people’s heads. Eitherway, it speaks bad only about him. You are absolutely right about dating – this should not be a game, we’re talking about people’s emotions – that’s just sick, wrong and makes me lose hope in humanity.
JB says
One of my all time favorite Evan quotes!!
“What you (women) don’t get nearly as upset about are the many men who are very interested in you that YOU’RE not excited by. Women think it’s perfectly fair to ignore an email from a guy or refuse to return a phone call so he can take a hint. Yet a man is a player or a liar or a jerk for not being sufficiently interested in you.”
For the record we know that all of you women don’t think every guy is the above for not being “sufficiently” interested but you get what he means.
All we’re saying is it’s tough on both sexes when you’re in the first few dates and nothing concrete has been or may never be established. That’s “dating” and there’s no rules or guarantees.
I can’t remember ever being at a woman’s place at 3am and not wanting to make a move though no matter what we’re talking about unless she’s telling me her mom is dying of cancer or something so that doesn’t bode well.
starthrower68 says
@ Artie, if a guy is giving mixed messages, then it is best to assume there is no genuine interest there. Mixed messages indicate ambivalence, which is best left alone. Never try to convince the ambivalent man. Walk away from him.
Angie says
Artie 17 –
There are a lot of reasons people *flirt* with other people, besides being interested in dating you. Some people are insecure and like being flirted with, so they will initiate flirting. Some people are naturally outgoing and friendly/flirty, and don’t realize that other people mistake their behaviors as romantic interest. There are people who like to keep their options open for potential future hookups. And there are some people who do definitely have an attraction to you, but don’t think you are serious dating material (ex. I have a coworker who is 23 and I’m 30 who I definitely have a mutual attraction with, but we are clearly at different stages of our lives, so he isn’t “dating” material) or aren’t interested in a serious relationship for personal reasons (on the rebound and not ready for a new relationship? doesn’t like dating coworkers?), but can’t help flirting because the attraction is there.
If you are seriously interested, you should challenge him a little bit or call him out (though that will take some quick wit on your part to pull off), but as Rochelle 19 said, read his actions, not his words. There is a big difference between finding someone attractive and wanting something from it.
As for the OP, three dates and three days isn’t that big of a deal. Even if he doesn’t call, I’d take this as a good personal note just because I think it speaks strongly of your own personal state of mind – receptive, interested, excited – so when you do find someone whose interest is the same as yours, you are ready to go. Keep at it!
sandra says
Reply to Amy 2: I concur. It seems that I prepare my self before each meet to remain as calm as possible,nand I am sure this translates to not showing enough emotion or (interest) to some – and especially to men who need the feedback.
So, I have decided to start saying in English words, sincerely how I feel if he seems to want to know – and thus, get past all the mishugas of trying to telepathically-psychically determine each other’s reactions.
This method is not foolproof, because even then we win some, we lose some, and some get rained out; but it’s my attempt to connect. If I don’t know how I feel, I try to be as gentle as possible. But you loose 100% of the chances you don’t take (Quote from either Wayne Gretsky or some PUA – I can’t recall which.) And if he can’t withstand the suspense then his lack of patience means I can’t be honest without pressure, So, I conclude that it’s not my fault nor is it my problem. A bit disappointing but, I then refocus attention and look forward to whatever i am looking forward to. Knowing that If the relationship is going to launch it might require patience, or timing or geography or interest or this or that… (Whatever.)
My Reply (and advice) to Roxanne, “How to stay sane…. Each single or coupled person has to find their own path. Hopefully we find how to meet our own needs without harming ourselves or other people. Focus on meeting your goals, finding pleasures, joining groups, or helping other people. Operate from the perspective of abundance and personal truth. And always be very careful to wish for the best possible outcome for yourself and others…which may not be exactly what you think you want right now…
Christine says
I concur with Evan’s advice here for the most part–we really do build up unrealistic expectations too much, too soon. That’s one thing I’m still trying to work on, and developing a tougher skin for all the bumps along the way with the revolving door.
However, I will go out on a limb and say that she probably WILL eventually forget this guy if he doesn’t call and follow through to a commitment. I have found that with enough time passing by, I start to forget even the guys I thought I was so keen on. I got this random text the other day from someone I apparently dated (must have, if he knows my name, texted my cell number and said how much he misses me…I guess this is someone I must have felt close to at one point). However, I can seriously say I’ve forgotten who this is (since he left no name, and I always erase guys from my cell phone “contacts” list after it doesn’t work out). To some extent that cliche is true that this, too, shall pass and time heals! There have been so many times in my life when something felt like the end of the world in that particular moment, but then later on I begin to forget it. This might be one of them, especially some guy you’ve only been on a few dates with.
Rochelle says
To Amy and Sandra, I think most men need some feedback unless they are overly cocky. I believe i used to come off really nonchalant and indifferent on dates…like if a guy said he’d call me or he had a good time.. I’d be kinda just like “ok”. I find that usually just saying thank you for his chivalrous gestures e.g. opening the door, paying for dinner, etc and saying you enjoyed his company, the night out, and or the restaurant is enough of a signal for him to know it’s ok to call again. And I’ve began saying things like “I appreciated the restaurant you chose” or “this evening felt good to me too” expressing this doesn’t make me feel like I come off too strong, feeling like I’m investing too much in him too soon and is enough of a signal for most guys to call again. So if I say these things and he doesn’t call I know it isn’t because I didn’t show enough interest in going out again.
Kim says
Evan’s advice is, as usual, spot on. If he hasn’t called, or texted by now, and if he was at your place until 2:45 on the third date and didn’t at least make some kind of move, this one is history. NEXT! I also agree with Greg, and this is something I have learned the hard way. If you like a guy, either call. or send an email after the date to let him know you had a good time. Even if he is lukewarm about you, knowing that you are interested may prompt him to take another look.
I recently reconnected with two guys that I had taken a pass on a while ago, and the first one has turned out to be a real gem–cute, smart, successful, and he calls every week to make another date. The other disappeared after the 1st re-meeting. While I wanted the latter to call me and I am very physically attracted to him, I soon realized that he probably did me a favor by disappearing because his actions on the date reminded me why I took a pass on him in the first place (checking his watch/phone, looking at other women, making suggestive comments). I had a moment of feeling down because he hadn’t called in a week, and then thought, so what if he didn’t call? It’s not about me. Now, I can relax and enjoy the first guy, because I know he is interested, and I am discovering more and more special things about him. In the long run, I believe he will be a much better boyfriend, and if the relationship should work out, great. But if it doesn’t, that’s life. There are so many things that we just have no control over. The only thing that I can do is be a good girlfriend, as Evan says, and trust that I am doing the right thing.
Nancy says
Sometimes I get confused by the physical chemistry so I focus on that and forget about the important stuff. The ones I have that chemistry with are usually the bad boys, the one who come on too strong and look like they’re really into you, then ghost. If after a really good date, and I hear crickets, I first make a list of why this guy is not boyfriend material. If after that if still obsessed as to why he’s not contacting me, then I send him a text, “you still interested?” No, keep it moving. Never, ever, ever, try to talk him out of it or try to convince him that he’s making a mistake. Usually though, if you have to ask….the answer is no.
Soul says
My way of staying sane while waiting for a phone call is to remind myself that, at any rate, I WILL take things slow, and I will need to observe and evaluate the guy before making the decision to actually date him…
So, you are not actually waiting for his phone call, you have already started your job, i.e. you are observing and evaluating him…. It is a very important part of the process, and it is your responsibility (along with Evan’s mirroring technique). Have fun doing so!
hespeler says
Another thing to add is that we can and should forgive ourselves for having unreal expectations from time to time. If you meet someone you really like and are very attracted to, it’s only human to feel excited about the prospects. If it doesn’t pan out, of course there will be some disappointment. Having enough persepctive to quickly move on is the key.
artie says
Wow! Such a group of sensible supportive folks. Thank you especially Rochelle 19, starthrower68 23, and Angie 24 as you all give excellent advice!
To rehash, I’m artie 17 w/ the guy that flirts w/ me at work, and I was experiencing frustration that he’s all talk and no action. Truth be told, he tries hard to put in as much physical contact at when when he can, a touch of the hand, super big hugs and a kiss on the cheek (though not to anyone else), laughs at every word I utter.
Funny how the hormones can play such tricks on us… With the mutual attraction, you’re right I’m seeing all this as obvious signs for wanting more. But you guys give GREAT advice (ok, Evan you’re the fearless leader in all this by proxy).
So I’ll lay low, only mirror what he offers me, STOP pining. 🙂 And in the meantime, better start getting my profile back up on Match.
Thank you oh Wise Ones for the sage advice! XXOO
Bill says
All these negative feelings about dating all stems from dating someone who isn’t all that interested in dating you. If you can’t handle the mating dating game it is time for you to date someone who is super interested in you.
Instead of blaming other people you should be blaming yourself for your own choices because that is the only thing you can change.
Henriette says
I hear you, @Amy2! On my dates I try to be warm, pleasant, affirming, interested in what they have to say. But, I will not allow myself to feel anything for a guy unless he puts himself on the line; I’ve had my hopes raised & dashed after a date or three too often when I was younger.
But then this has become a problem. Over the past few years I’ve received feedback from guys I’ve gone on dates with that I was lovely but didn’t seem sufficiently “into them.” They wanted stronger signals of interest from me before diving in, and not receiving that, they gave up and instead went for other women who seemed much more eager about them. So, on one hand, genuinely digging a guy after one date generally leads to hurt feelings and disappointment for me, but when I just sit back and mirror, they think that I’m only lukewarm and they want a stronger Green Light.
Rampiance says
I once got burned really bad by working hard to relate to a guy who ended up scamming me big time. After that experience, I decided that I would ONLY take seriously men who showed a LOT (I do mean tons) of interest in me, and the kind of interest I like to receive. So now when I go out, I have a great time because I love to have fun and, after all, I’M in charge of how much fun I have. It may be the last time I ever see this guy, so of course I want to make the most of it. It’s actually one of my assumptions during our outing: something will happen and we won’t ever see each other again. (Family emergencies happen, lives get upended, people move to other cities/states/countries.)
On the other hand, it may be the start of a wonderful friendship, so I do my part as a potential good friend.
After the date, though, I don’t even think about it, because (1) I’ll never see him again, per my standard assumption; (2) We’re just potential friends, and we both already have plenty of those, and friends take time and effort to maintain, so I don’t expect him to add to his responsibilities when he has so many others; and (3) He has to show tons of the right kind of interest before I’d take him seriously as a lover.
My point is that when you “date”, you have all these rules and expectations and guidelines and MY GOD it’s so damn complicated! Make it easy for yourself and don’t “date”. Go on outings with potential friends. So much less pressure. And easy to stay sane!
Rampiance says
On a totally different note, here’s a story a lover told me. He was upset about my not calling him as often as he wanted me to, although we didn’t specify call times or frequencies. He thought I wasn’t showing enough interest in him, although he was intensely interested in me.
One day, he stood waiting by his phone for me to call, kind of steaming with impatience and frustration. His hands were on the counter either side of where the phone sat; he was staring at the phone hard enough to melt it. Finally he blew a fuse and just gave up ~ released his attachment and let his heart soften enough to feel kindness toward me instead of hardness.
His phone rang in less than a minute.
At the other end of the line, I’d been feeling so much pressure, I felt alienated from calling … until that moment when the pressure lifted and I felt free enough to breathe and free enough to move toward him instead of resisting the push. That’s when I called.
I think people respond to psychic pressure more than they are aware of. When you send out that pressure “call me, call me, call me”, it can feel pretty creepy at the other end.
Rochelle says
Best of luck artie 🙂
Rampiance, I like your mindset on dating. Similarly to you I treat men who I can’t tell if they are really interested or not more like friends. Some of these guys still treat it as a date when we go out in terms of taking the lead and planning everything, but I figure if they really wanted to pursue something serious, they’d make more of an effort to make sure that I know that they want me. I treat them the same way in terms of mirroring them as the men who make more effort ..and it works for me.
Example, I have a friend at work (another co-worker story) he’s flirted so I flirted back. He asked me out to lunch a few times and I said yes to the occasions. it’s clear that he’s attracted and he likes me but at the moment, I’m not feeling it’s anything more than that. We don’t keep in touch heavily outside work. And I’m not sure on how i feel about actually dating someone at work , although we don’t have to see each other much. Plus we don’t know each other that well. So I just mirrored his efforts without putting out that expectation him to do more. Then the other day he asked me out to dinner but I didn’t feel comfortable considering it yet and told him while I appreciated the invitation I was ok with lunch for now. this is also an example of how we are in control of “how much fun” we have too. I recently started online dating again so I’m looking forward to what other prospects have to offer.
Also agreeing with you regarding psychic pressure. Being the spiritual person that I am and from my own experience, I believe people subconsciously sense that “pressure” vibe, even if you aren’t verbalizing it. If your vibe is saying “I need you, commit to me! call me, damn it!” it makes them resist more. But when you let go of that feeling and realize it’s ok if you don’t hear from him again, he will be more likely to call.
Ellen says
Rampiance #35 and Rochelle #36: psychic energy fascinates me also, though it’s pretty darn hard to quantify or research. There is an Oxford educated biologist in the UK named Rupert Sheldrake who is trying to quantify it by amassing tons of anecdotal reports. He’s researched the feeling of being watched which all of us experience sooner or later (I think it’s the person’s subtle body there or disincarnates), dogs/cats/other animals who can return home even over very long distances (the homing instinct), dogs/cats that can read their owner’s minds, etc.
Anyway, I have tried to tap into the psychic connection me and my bf have and here and there I can tell when he is thinking about me.
To love one soul is like adding its life to your own; your life is, as it were, multiplied and you virtually live in two centres. — Meher Baba
Lucy says
I don’t get really into someone very quickly – at least not as quickly as I used to. Especially since I’ve read this and other weblogs I’m starting to wonder if there’s a catch because I’m not as vulnerable around men as I used to be. I don’t put them on pedestals any more and I think they notice it. One of my friends gets noticed more and she’s more submissive than me. But I wouldn’t say I’m a strong woman. I want to be the submissive one in the relationship and I worry that if I initiate something with a guy, I will be doing it all the time. This happened to me before. I honestly felt like I was the man in the relationship and I hated it. I’m afraid to make a move because all the men I’ve dated got lazy and complacent and I was the one making the effort all the time.
There seem to be two prominent schools of thought in dating advice – one which says to let men ask you out because only then you know they’re really into you. And the other says that a woman will get nowhere unless she asks men for dates, phone numbers etc and chats up men in any possible public situation. That immediately strikes me as out of my comfort zone but perhaps that suggests that it’s something I should be doing. Is there a way to strike a path through the middle and still come across as a high value woman? It all seems pretty black and white. I am so confused.
Rochelle says
Lucy, the advice out there that advocates the men asking you out is in our best interest. A woman making all the moves not only comes off as needy or aggressive to most men; like you said, it really doesn’t let a man show his efforts and interest level. Your experience of the men getting complacent and lazy also proves that you will start to feel more like “the man” So I don’t believe in the new school “women should ask men out”. I played by the “modern” ideas a lot and it got me nowhere.. in my late 20s after being “enlightened” I have switched it around and I’m glad I got the memo this early.
Sure once you’re actually in the relationship, doing some of the initiating is fine, since it’s more of an established partnership then. but during through courtship let the man take the lead and just mirror, i.e., respond to whatever he does. Maybe this would be the middle road you’re looking for because some poor advice out there says you should let a man ask you out and you should also go out of your way to play hard to get. Like not returning his calls, always taking a long time to reply to him, deliberately ignore him, etc
Karmic Equation says
Lucy
It sounds like you prefer the alpha-type guy (the take charge kind), so I would recommend you follow the school that says let HIM make all the contact. If you want to stand out to an alpha guy, DON’T BE LIKE the other girls who are also interested in him. You can bet most of them are texting and calling him to go out for drinks or whatever. BE DIFFERENT and let him come to you. You allow two important things to happen if you let him make contact:
1) You know HE likes YOU rather than simply responding out of kindess or laziness or whatever
2) You distinguish yourself from your competitors (and always assume there are competitors if you’re after an alpha)
Good luck!
Lucy says
@Rochelle – thanks for your response. Your advice makes a lot of sense. I will try and continue with the good tips on this blog. It’s quite difficult because I have other women around me telling me to give guys a chance who I don’t fancy. And some guys tell me that I’m sexist for wanting someone who’ll do the asking out. When I say I prefer to let the guy do that, they think I’m the princess type which is actually far from the truth. I’m easy going and I don’t care too much for money or even looks most of the time. It’s a man’s character that really attracts me.
I’m still a bit young (I’m 23) and this blog has single-handedly stopped me in my tracks with how I was dating. I get less casual attention from men now because I don’t act like I want it all the time. And as you mentioned in your last paragraph, I would definitely never play games.
@Karmic – Thanks. Your posts tend to reflect how I think about most topics on here.
You’re right. I do go for the alpha guy. I really can’t help myself. I find that I can’t be attracted to men who aren’t like that and I wouldn’t expect them to change. However I think I’m on mission impossible because I want a guy who’s alpha, intelligent and has family values, but doesn’t believe I should spend all my time in the kitchen. But I don’t have model looks so perhaps I have too many expectations? What else attracts an alpha male?
You guys are great btw! I really appreciate the tips. 🙂
Michelle says
I can chat up men with the best of them, however, I would NEVER ask for their number or ask them out on a date. IMO, Karmic #40 is 100% correct and you can NEVER go wrong by following that guideline of letting him pursue you (whether he is as an alpha, beta or whatever–not big into those ‘labels’).
AS says
Evan, you hit the nail on the head when you refer to the blind spot! I know of women that do this (ignore emails.calls, texts etc), yet they get all critical and upset when they get a doze of their own medicine, perhaps the lesson here is treat someone, how you wish to be treated yourself!
ana says
The Golden Rule is a good rule generally speaking. But it’s impossible to follow every time. Should every man and woman respond to every romantic advance they receive? No. If they’re sought after, they’ll have many offers. They’ll just go for the offer they like best based on the little information they have and that’s what *everyone* is doing. The 7 wants a 10 who rejects the 7 who rejects the 5 who rejects the 3 who rejects the 1. Of course, the 10 is being rejected by another 10. We will all get hurt and we will hurt others. That is life. We can do our best not to lead others on and also take their lack of interest with as much grace as possible and move on. Even if we cannot do that, that’s the game. Dating is chess. If I find it too brutal, I don’t date. But if I want to meet that special person, I will have to get out of my comfort zone.
Karmic Equation says
@Lucy
You might benefit from this particular blog post (this is for teens, but still beneficial, and then make sure you read his post for 20’s dating. In fact, read all his posts, I have).
You’re young, so just date for fun, don’t worry about having a relationship, but rather dating men to see what you like and don’t like, be picky. Try dating all kinds of men and DON’T GET EXCLUSIVE (“circular dating”) until you’ve dated, say, at least 10 men. To date like this and keep your options open in your head and in your heart, you need to NOT HAVE SEX with any of them. Fool around, but don’t have sex, okay?
There’s an article I read that speculated that men can decide quickly whether a woman is LTR material or just “for fun” because they date so prolifically and can COMPARE their experiences with different women in real time.
Serial dating (which is what most women do), while it is the normal expectation of women, is actually NOT to her benefit when it comes to CHOOSING the RIGHT man because she’s not actively comparing the men in real time.
Some schools of thought maintain that a woman should date and be UN-exclusive until one of the men she’s dating proposes. Not sure how practical this is, but why not give it a try, especially if your current dating strategies are not working out the way you want them to.
Good luck.
Jenna says
Karmic – absolutely true that dating a lot sharpens your perception of who you may ultimately be suited for a relationship with. When I was younger, I’d get offended if I went on a halfway decent date (we had a run of the mill conversation) with a man who didn’t call me for another. Now, it makes me laugh to think how annoyed I used to get about it, because I have a much more active social life, many more options, and a much stronger idea of what suits and doesn’t suit me.
Earlier in the fall, I even tried an experiment for a couple weeks where I went out with a different man nearly every day, sometimes two a day, just to see how it felt. (Mostly from match, a couple from real life.) These were generally 1st and second dates so there was no physical activity, and if I got to a second date with a man I knew I wouldn’t even want to kiss goodnight I insisted on splitting the bill. It was one of the single best things I’ve ever done for my dating life. It taught me how impersonal rejection is (I was doing most of the rejecting), the traits that are important for a man to have vs. those that aren’t, and that I’m a girl who has options instead of needing to feel forlorn about being perpetually single. I had to stop and cut out dating a bit so I could get back to my regularly scheduled life, friends, etc., but it’s a helpful experience for anyone to feel their way through.
Rochelle says
@Lucy<i>Rochelle — thanks for your response. Your advice makes a lot of sense. I will try and continue with the good tips on this blog. It’s quite difficult because I have other women around me telling me to give guys a chance who I don’t fancy. And some guys tell me that I’m sexist for wanting someone who’ll do the asking out. When I say I prefer to let the guy do that, they think I’m the princess type which is actually far from the truth. I’m easy going and I don’t care too much for money or even looks most of the time. It’s a man’s character that really attracts me. </i>
I know how you feel.. I have female friends and family who meant well say I was too “passive, quiet and old school” and that was the reason it wasn’t working. Yet their relationships happened with them letting the man pursue. But I took their advice anyway thinking they must know better since they are in relationships/married, yet I am pretty feminine at my core so it felt awful and unnatural to feel like I was chasing guys. So after awhile I was like “why should I be an exception?” Truth is my issue was that I was doing things that made me look like I didn’t value myself, without even realizing it. The wake up call also made me realize I have something I want to continue working on within myself before I settle down. The big one is my tendency to be too conflict avoidant. Old habits die hard but I am doing my best to take my own advice.
And yes, men these days will say things like “oh you should ‘woman up’ and ask a man out” or say it’s sexist to prefer to have a guy ask. Truth is these men are just confused. They think they love it when a woman will ask them out. Then it happens and they realize they just feel flattered but chances of him seeing her as “the one” are slim, unless it’s a very feminine energy guy. They might not even know why they feel the woman who pursued isn’t the one but that is likely the reason.
<i>I’m still a bit young (I’m 23) and this blog has single-handedly stopped me in my tracks with how I was dating. I get less casual attention from men now because I don’t act like I want it all the time. And as you mentioned in your last paragraph, I would definitely never play games. </i>
Well you seem to have your priorities strait (e.g. looking at character vs wealth and money) it’s good you’re learning about what is effective now in your early 20s because most of us are confused in our 20s. 🙂 And cool, I admit I have played games as an experiment of trial and error, to see with my own eyes what is effective and what isn’t…And playing games definitely doesn’t work. It’s manipulative and may get a guy to do one small thing you’re after but in the big picture it works against you. it’s best to just be open, confident, vulnerable and authentic. Might be scarier but it’s the best thing to do.
Anita says
The way to stay sane is to remember that as a man, he is an idiot. If he does not call within a reasonable time frame, idiocy confirmed. If he does call within a reasonable time frame, just keep waiting for confirmation. Eventually you will get it.
henriette says
@Anita47: are you trying to be funny? Because, honestly, I’m offended. I have men in my life – including brothers, a dad, cherished friends – who I love dearly and who are certainly not idiots. Maybe you’ve had some hurtful experiences but it is not right to paint all men with the same brush.
How would you feel if a guy made blanket statements about people of our sex? “As a woman, she is a whore” or “Women are fools.” I certainly wouldn’t appreciate it.
As humans, we are all flawed but horrible stereotypes such as yours help no one, least of all yourself. Please have some compassion for both men and women and how difficult dating can be for everyone. If you truly think that there are lessons that most men need to learn, perhaps you could share some of your insights here, rather than practicing “hate speech.”
morgan says
Hon, you just have to let go.
There is a myriad of reasons he’s not going to call you again and most of them will have nothing to do with you being who you are.
I totally understand how disappointing it is to meet someone, feel that click, hope that this could be ‘the one’ then nada, but…
You have NO IDEA what’s going on in his life and there’s no point wasting your valuable energy wondering.
Trust that you are just fine and shift your focus onto finding a bloke who leaves you in no doubt that you are ‘the business’ for him.
I’m not just spouting Evan philosophy, I adopted it and lived it and it worked.
Good luck
hespeler says
jenna 45,
I don’t understand why you would need to date so many men in such a short period of time just because, “you could.” This seems to speak to the feminine requirement for validation and attention and it doesn’t do the men on the other end any favors.
Why do you need to prove to yourself that you have options? If you’re online dating and you are regularly in a conversation with someone and get winked at here and there, get a number and a date here and there, well then you have options. You don’t need to go on a physical date with someone just to prove that the option exists. Also, most people have options online at least for an intial phone call or date; this in and of itself means nothing as has been proven on this blog time and again.
I’ve come across a few women who have indicated that online dating is mainly an ego-boost for them. I find it maddening because those women are never really looking to connect with anyone.
I’m not trying to be confrontational, I just am trying to better understand the logic behind dating just for the sake of dating.
I’ll admit I’m being somewhat hypocritical here because I’ve gone through periods of marathon dates before but it wasn’t to prove that I had options, it was because the girl interested me enough to warrant an in-person meeting. If that was your logic too then I apologize and understand where you’re coming from.
Daphne says
I have gone on 40 first dates in the past two years on Match. This has turned into only two second dates, one third date, and one guy I’ve had an ongoing sexual relationship with for three to five months at a time (total of two years). The funny thing is that both of us quit Match out of sheer frustration with too many nowhere dates during one of our months-long periods of not seeing each other.
I’m concluding that especially for people who are over 45 and have kids and lots of baggage, finding the feeling of caring and familiarity with someone is extremely difficult indeed.
Denise says
Daphne, that’s kindof sad. I’ve gone on a lot of dates and have some short term relationships in there as well. I don’t look at any of it as a failure, and looked at each experience as a learning experience.
This feeling of caring and familiarity you refer to is something that comes by spending time with someone, it’s not automatic. I think people our age think that on the first date, you just know he’s/she’s ‘the one’, and that’s not how it works at all. Too many people don’t get that it’s a process and on line dating provides this false perception there’s someone better out there so why ‘settle’ with not feeling instant attraction. I don’t know how many of those men you said no to a second date with, but I bet there were some that were discarded and could have potentially been a great partner. Maybe that’s something to look at in yourself? Also, MEET MEN IN REAL LIFE! I met my current BF on line, but I met so many men off line, and frankly, it was more fun and romantic and exciting when he was showing interest in person, real time.
Ruby says
Daphne
“…and one guy I’ve had an ongoing sexual relationship with for three to five months at a time (total of two years).”
Oh yes, the on-again-off-again FWB. He leaves you, and just when you think you’re over him, he pops back into your life. The guy that so many women end up pretending they don’t want more from, went in reality, they do. Could it be that your FWB is holding you back from being open to other men?
Lucy says
@Karmic – Thanks for the link. I read it and it’s given me a few insights (I love that blog). The biggest issue I’m experiencing now is that most men my age aren’t on track with what I’ve learnt from sites like this. I feel like I’m more mature than they are. The men I meet always trying to accelerate things quickly without actually paying attention to how I’m reacting to it. I read the posts here and I think “Well that doesn’t describe men my age. It only describes older guys” but maybe it will become more relevant for me later.
@Rochelle – Thanks for the insights. I’m definitely more of a feminine person and I don’t feel like myself if I chase men and I won’t do that now, though I felt the pressure to do that before. I often get approached by men who are feminine even though I’m attracted to masculine energy. I think the feminine energy guys like me because I’m feminine and more reserved and they think “Hey I’m like that. We must be a good match” but I find it impossible to find these guys attractive. I always focus on men who are more outgoing/extroverted than me. I think you’re right about being open and vulnerable. I will try to do that. Oh and I’m avoidant too, like you mentioned – I have a habit of avoiding the most important item on my to-do-list because knowing I have to do it freaks me out.
Daphne says
@Ruby, I have taken seriously the idea that my ongoing FWB is holding me back from meeting other guys. The problem is that my dating w other guys has not resulted in meeting and dating IRL anyone who strongly expresses interest in me. When I have been looking and not comparing other guys to him, I’m still in a demographic where- I believe- a huge number of men don’t want an LTR. They especially don’t want an LTR that could result in teenaged stepchildren. I also don’t think I have any other major dealbreakers that I’m in denial about.
The exception is men a whole 13 to 15 years older than me. That is too old- and I have actually tried this, it’s not just my answer based on my prejudices. I don’t have chemistry w anyone that much older.
As Evan has observed, men in their 50s often want younger women- even when the guys themselves are five years older than me !
I’m starting a new job at a giant company in January and will meet lots of people, most of them neither a boss nor an immediate coworker, so there will be romantic opportunities.
JB says
@ Hespeler #50 “Also, most people have options online at least for an intial phone call or date”
Sorry but “most people” (men) don’t have the same options online. A very large percentage of men have very few to almost NO options. They never even get a response let alone an initial phone call or the “holy grail” of a date. Most (but not all)women (like Jenna) on the other hand can literally go on a “meet & greet” every night of the week. This is online dating reality there’s nothing remotely “equal” about it. I just thank god every day that I’m in the category of actually meeting women online because I’ve paid my dues, learned, and have the skill set to do it.
Sadly many men don’t.
Daphne says
@JB, Your response indicates that you have thought through online dating empathetically and very carefully. However, one reason many men don’t get responses is that they
1) are approaching women who are more than 10 years younger than they are
2) have already said they don’t want a woman w kids, then approach such women anyway
3) ignore stated geographic distance restrictions (no, I can’t drive 90 minutes to see you !)
4) are not reading women’s profiles, which may contain important information.
Very irritating. Evan’s certainly right to say that we need to laugh this off and keep going, but many men are essentially sending spam.
Sabrina says
It stings when a guy initially shows interest in you (first 3-4 dates) and then obviously loses it. Too often, I take it personally, a “failure” if I couldn’t sustain a guy’s interest in me. But Evan’s sage advice reminds me to keep looking for the guy who actually WANTS to be with me, rather than pining over the one who dropped off the face of the earth. Sigh 🙂
JB says
@Sabrina #58 “keep looking for the guy who actually WANTS to be with me”. Most women don’t want MOST of those guys. Those are the ones that don’t responses online or second dates. The ones that Evan wants you all to take a second look at that might be good relationship material because they’re not “hot” with tons of options.
@Daphne #57 That wasn’t 1 reason that was 4 which I agree with you on btw, but you left out the most important one. They’re physically unattractive and have a horrible profile. That’s a bad combo. I look at men’s profiles everyday in my area to see the competition and I just laugh at the cluelessness. I know why MOST men don’t get responses….LOL
Shari says
It could very well be that the guy got busy with something-3 days is not really that long, so he might still very well call. But definitely nothing to obsess about. Even if he doesn’t, and you were always staying yourself on these dates-it’s no reflection on you, it didn’t pan out for some reason. All you can do is tell yourself “Oh well, such is life” and keep going forward. The more people you expose yourself to, the better your chances of finding the one guy who will stick around for good.
That being said-it is so irritating when guys call you,text you, email you, etc. you go on dates, more phone calls, and so on and so on- and then poof-the disappearing act. I can even understand a guy not calling again after a first date, but really, after investing the time to get to know someone for a few or more dates,(and you investing your own time in getting to know the guy) it’s just inconsiderate to leave you hanging like that, and not give some type of closure(in a nice, gentle way, of course).
Just my thoughts.
Lucy says
Okay. I thought about this post again today. I met this guy while out with my friends last weekend then I bumped into him again when out on Friday. Well I gave him my email address and said for him to contact me and I’ll get back to him. He sent me a message the next day which I read but was too busy to reply to at the time. Then today (Sunday) before I could reply he sent me another which said “you not replying?” which I found really irritating and any interest I had went right out the window. Ah and that guy is 32 which seems quite old to me to be making that kind of mistake. So I definitely think some men should take the advice here as well.
Karmic Equation says
@Lucy
Are you saying that you were so busy that texted NO ONE on the day he texted you?
If yes, ok.
But if you texted other people, but not him, that’s totally not cool. He showed interest and you’re (inadvertently at best) shit testing him.
If you had buyer’s remorse, ok, disqqualify him. But if you’re disqualifying him because he showed sincere interest and you couldn’t be bothered, then that’s just not right.
Jenna says
Hespeler – I am not one of those women that looks to online dating for validation though I see how it could have come off like that. It’s just that until the last year or so I had awful self esteem and a negative outlook on life and even though I was cute I felt like I was always the one who got rejected and had no choices. Going out with a different person every day put a lot in perspective for me — and I took these men seriously btw I wasn’t doing it to use people. I did a lot more work on myself aside from that, but it was informative. These days, I have too many friends and activities to date every day. I haven’t even been on match for a couple weeks bc I have a really full life and going on all these meaningless first dates subtracts from that.
hespeler says
JB 56,
I actually agree with you. Online dating is definitely not equal. I would take it one step further and say that even the more successful male online daters struggle online (relatively speaking).
I’ve met tons of women online and I get written to and winked at a lot as well but I’ve been ingnored 10 times as much. And I write to girls in my age range (I’m 38) and within a reasonable geographic location.
Jenna mentioned she was going on a lot of dates so that tells me that she (and yes I agree most women) have plenty of options online if they so choose. I just don’t see the point in going on the date (unless you are genuinely intrigued by the person and want to meet him) just to prove to yourself you have options.
If the arguement is that well she should go because you never know she may find someone she really hits it off with. Maybe but more than likely it will just be a pleasant hour or two over a cup of coffee or a drink or two. No magical butterflies or anything like that. The guy had no chance from the start.
I very well may be reading into her comments too much or misunderstanding her but as a successful (relatively speaking) online dater, do you need to prove to yourself that you have options by going on a bunch of half-hearted dates?
Rochelle says
@Lucy on one hand he should understand if you don’t reply to an email right away, which is why he should have just asked for your number (did he, or did ask for your email?) Because I know I don’t keep up with my emails the way I keep up with my phone so I might take 2-3 days to reply to an email.. this might be another subject in its own right, since I’m one of those ladies who can’t take a guy seriously if he’s only willing to communicate via electronic communication while phone says “chore” to him.
Either way, why did your interest go out the window? He was just hoping to hear from you and taking awhile to reply made him nervous. It’s a good thing since it shows he may be legitimately interested, but I say don’t deliberately take awhile to respond to emails, texting, calls, etc.
Lucy says
@Rochelle – Hey maybe I should give him a chance. And the reason I didn’t give him my number is because I don’t have a mobile phone (I know. I’m crazy). And I’ll bear in mind what you said. I’ve never really wanted to take ages to reply – I’m simply a bit scatty and busy. I gave him my Facebook email and he said he couldn’t find me before (I’m unsearchable). I guess it made my interest go because it felt really needy and I didn’t like his flirting technique which consists of “Can I kiss you?” in the middle of a conversation when I’m not even talking about anything related to that at all.
The electronic versus phone conversation bugs me too. I was long distance with a past boyfriend and he refused to skype call me. He would only ever IM with me and I told him all I wanted was to see his face. But he only wanted to communicate his way. We’d have rows about it because he’d take umbrage to it. I never understood the men in my life and why they are so difficult and want everything their way all the time. This new guy seems to be just like that. If I don’t reply when he wants to, he gets all controlling. I told him off last week for coming on too strong and he says “it’s all right. I’m used to grumpy women”. :/
Henriette says
@Hespeler64 I respectfully disagree with one of your points. Isn’t one of the points of this blog to teach us that “the magic butterflies” are fleeting and that long-lasting love can be found with kind, stable people who mightn’t knock our socks off at first meeting?
JB says
@Lucy #66 “I don’t have a mobile phone” ???
That’s a red flag. Who would even try and have a relationship or date someone without a cell phone? It can’t be done in this day and age. Sorry
Karl R says
JB said: (#68)
“Who would even try and have a relationship or date someone without a cell phone? It can’t be done in this day and age.”
Really? It can’t be done?
I didn’t have a mobile phone until my current employer gave me one. (And since the phone belongs to the company, I still don’t own one.) I did plenty of dating without one. It requires a little more planning in advance, but it’s not that difficult.
One of my serious relationships was with another woman who also didn’t own a mobile phone.
I didn’t have a mobile until I was 38. I’ve never owned a car. I haven’t had a drivers license since mine expired at the age of 21. I’m sure a few women treated these as red flags, but I’ve dated a number of terrific women who weren’t at all concerned about these irrelevant details.
You might want to reevaluate what “can’t be done.”
Lucy says
@JB – Well I say I don’t. I actually do have one but I cannot use it because I have no money to pay for phone credit (It’s as good as useless). Unfortunately I’m not in a good financial situation due to university fees. I can only live on £10-20 per week so the phone is the last on my list of priorities. I’m not a technophobe but I try not to rely on technology because I want a simple life. I can be contacted on Facebook anyway which most people can access from their phones. Sometimes I do think it makes me miss out on stuff because I’m less easy to get a hold of.
Soul says
@JB, #68:
How can possibly having not having a cell phone be a red flag ??? Are you serious???
Karmic Equation says
@Soul and JB
While I think “red flag” is overstating things, I do believe NOT having a cell phone or even having a cell phone but NO texting makes dating in this day and age difficult.
For example, there’s a guy with whom I’m pool shooting buddies. For me “calling” him to see if he wants to shoot pool is way to intimate, whereas texting him is more acceptable to me. At the same time, I know that he’s had a few medical issues recently, and I would have liked to text him to see how he’s doing, but feel uncomfortable calling him. His lack of texting availability makes it difficult for me to be communicate with him more.
I’m not looking to start a relationship with my friend, as I’m in one, but I want to be his friend without being too close, which a telephone call implies to me.
OTOH, I think at the beginning of a relationship, texting allows an arm’s length closeness to develop. YOu can start to connect to another person in a less pressurized way. You can keep in daily contact, without necessarily being intimate.
In other words, I think folks of the older generation (38+) may be missing out on something. But, if you’re dating others who also don’t text or don’t have cell phones, then that’s ok. However, you may be limiting your dating pool, or at least adding a nuisance obstacle to dating, if you don’t have a cell phone and texting.
Soul says
# Karmic, # 72:
What you are saying totally makes sense, but it is different.
Sure, when sb does not have a cell phone, or does not text etc., it is not convenient. But it is by no means a red flag, or, rather, should it not be. In fact, it does not say anything about sb’s integrity, honesty, etc.
Karmic Equation says
Soul #73
Agreed.
I would add that it’s more than simply inconvenient though. I think you end up missing communication opportunities that can help you connect if sb doesn’t have a cell phone or has a cell phone but doesn’t text.
David T says
Some people are denied access to their cell phones during the workday due to their profession. (For instance, someone who works in an radio frequency sensitive area).
(What is “sb”, btw? )
@Karmic I’m not looking to start a relationship with my friend, as I’m in one, but I want to be his friend without being too close, which a telephone call implies to me.
Talking on the phone is somehow more ‘intimate’ than seeing them face to face? You are worried about him reading something into you calling him up? Aren’t you presuming a bit much into what is in his head? Even if you aren’t, and are concerned he will misinterpret your interest, why wouldn’t he be far more likely to mistinterpret actually hanging out to shoot pool? Why not talk to him directly about the boundaries of your friendship?
JB says
Ok maybe “red flag” was a little strong. I’m sure I’ll never have to worry about it anyway. I can’t remember how many years it’s been since I’ve met a woman without a cellphone. Back in the 90’s maybe?? Suffice to say if I met a woman today and I was attracted to her it certainly wouldn’t be a deal breaker but it would give me cause for concern and make me wonder……………
Karmic Equation says
@David T #75
“Talking on the phone is somehow more ‘intimate’ than seeing them face to face? You are worried about him reading something into you calling him up?”
Yes. When we are shooting pool it’s a buddy situation. While I’m female in form, when I shoot pool I’m male in mindset 🙂 Super competitive. He’s much better than I in pool by far, but that doesn’t make me any less competitive. We enjoy that competitive, trash-talking camaraderie. But we talk about life, pool league, his ex-gf probs, my current bf probs, etc.
He and I never crossed any boundaries. Over the summer, I got signals that he’d be interested in dating me, and truth be told, he’d be a fabulous bf. He’s offered indirect dates, such as “We should play scrabble sometimes” (I love Words with Friends) or “We should check out this pool hall a few towns over.” But I made believe I didn’t hear those offers.
Neither of us has to address that interest directly, nor should we have to. To me, our nuanced interaction is part of the male-female dynamic in which it is the responsibility of a woman to set the boundaries INDIRECTLY, which I’m able to do without ever having to say out loud “I’m not interested now”. He knows that by how and what I talk about (he knows I have a bf now and is respectful of that). But my indirect communications (ignoring the date-like offers) is already doing that job so neither of us has to let go the buddy-relationship, and no damage to the male-ego needs to take place. He can keep wondering/hoping, and I’ll let him keep wondering/hoping, until such a time as I change my mind (break up with bf and level up the flirtation) or he takes direct action, such as asking me on a date…and I know he won’t ask me until I level up the flirtation and I won’t do that (if at all) until I’m out of my relationship, so where this goes is entirely up to me.
“Even if you aren’t, and are concerned he will misinterpret your interest, why wouldn’t he be far more likely to mistinterpret actually hanging out to shoot pool? Why not talk to him directly about the boundaries of your friendship?”
Therefore, I cannot make contact with him via phone call, as that would be adding a more intimate level to our interaction. As it stands, I usually end up at the pool hall at a certain time on Saturday or Sunday and he ends up there sometimes or vice versa. We don’t overtly make arrangements to meet to shoot pool, but we’re pretty sure one or the other will be there…and if not, there is no harm/no foul.
Now texting would certainly be more convenient and less intimate: “At pool hall, you planning to play today?” or “How are you doing? Heard you had a problem with your eye last week.” Calling either way ratchets up the intimacy of our buddy-connection, imo. And I don’t want to do that.
Being INDIRECT is a better way to manage this relationship/male ego, as I see it. Am I wrong to believe this?
Karmic Equation says
@JB 76
What would you wonder about? That part I still don’t get…
JB says
It would make wonder if they didn’t have a cell because they couldn’t afford one or is it because they don’t want to feel like they’d always have to answer it etc…. I’m not sure and it doesn’t matter because I’ll never meet another woman that doesn’t have one. Never the less I didn’t say it above but I have the exact opposite problem now because nobody has a land line anymore and I’m tired of having phone conversations with bad reception and dropped calls especially when these people (men and women) are at home!! Any time I’m at home I call from my home phone because I love the clarity…LOL and I hate talking on my iPhone. It’s a great invention but it sucks as A PHONE!!!
David T says
@Karmic
I have a better understanding now. You two don’t really plan these pool get togethers, they just happen more or less spontaneously. If you did not have a well developed friendship prior to your current level of interaction I can see why calling and planning things or just shooting the bull might be more intimate than you want. It does sound like you are keeping him in your hip pocket as plan B if your current relationship fails. You don’t want to be clear about whether you would consider dating him or not so he keeps some low level of interest. Is that accurate?
I have experienced the ‘no response’ and I am offended when someone ignores something I said/suggested rather than give me a direct answer. When I repeatedly get silence to invitations I know they received or heard, it says to me they a) do not respect or care about our friendship enough to make a point to respond (not a good friend), OR b) that they would rather be deceptive than take the chance of hurting me (co-dependent tendency) OR c) I am insulted that they think I am so fragile that I will go to pieces if I hear no thanks, and won’t be their friend anymore. I lose patience with this behavior and respect for them pretty quickly. They drop off my call/text/hang out list after they do that a few times. Sometimes they start contacting me and I might talk to them or even do things with them again, but I have lost ALL interest in considering them dating partner material even if we become friends again. If after a very long time I come to respect them again, that could change.
If your indirect communication style works for you both, that is great. It puts me off and I know some other men think like I do. Thoughts, gentlemen?
marymary says
David
It may be cultural. I’m chinese and it is not be the done thing to flat out refuse an invitation or knock someone back. It doesn’t have to be a NO for us to get the message. It’s called saving face. I save yours and you save mine. Both chinese men and women play this out, it’s not a gender thing. My father is masterful at it. Probably different if the person is westernised but I’m quite westernised and still do it. Though my brother, who is more attuned to it then I am, says I’m like a bull in a china shop.
Tom10 says
JB
I agree with you regarding having no cell phone — if I met a woman and she told me she had no phone I would probably take it as weak shrug-off. If she was genuine I would have to consider if it’d be worth the hassle. Lucy, if you’re serious about dating you need to make a bit of an effort — having a working phone is the very minimum requirement!
David T
“Thoughts, gentlemen?”
I think the way Karmic handles the situation with her friend is very reasonable — because it suits her current needs perfectly, and he knows she already has a bf. There’s nothing disrespectful, deceptive, or insulting about it really.
However, her friend is playing a very poor strategy. Nobody can be kept in someone’s ‘hip pocket’ unless they allow themselves to be there. If the friend genuinely wants to date her, he is in the worst possible place to do so: the friend zone. If he wants more he should either be direct, or get the hint (getting the ‘no response’ isn’t that hard to decipher) and back off a bit, then wait for her to be single again. If he’s happy to remain her friend and no more, then the way they currently interact is perfect.
I quite like the indirect communication style at times too, as flirting and trying to imply or detect hints and nuance is always fun.
Rochelle says
I understand JB’s take on the cell. While I wouldn’t say a relationship can’t be done without a cell, I would “wonder” about a man who tells me he doesn’t have a cell. It’s just extremely uncommon to not have a cell especially in my generation. My friend met her ex off match and he didn’t have a cell… I am assuming he had a landline, otherwise that would be a really inconvenient llifestyle. Turned out he didn’t have friends and seemed to be out to make a woman the center of his life. And yes I realize these are not always correlative but I would have wondered what his social situation was. Or if he just didn’t want a phone or couldn’t afford one at the time.
Karmic Equation says
@JB 79
That’s why you need to get an Android! The Galaxy S III is AMAZING! Awesome as phone and computer. That said, not sure if you use a Bluetooth headset or not, they can actually make talking on a phone that has bad phone audio (I had a Tilt with this problem) — and using a BT headset made all the difference in the world to the phone’s audio quality as a phone.
Well, not being able to afford a cell phone could be an indication of bad money management…or an indication of good prioritization. “I need to eat more than I need to text.” In the whole scheme of things having a cell phone or not is not important, but definitely can put a damper on spontaneous communications.
@marymary
I’m Chinese too. And agree with you. Didn’t even think about that, guess it’s internalized within me, even though I am a total “twinkie” (yellow on the outside, white on the inside) – LOL
David T #80 – I have experienced the ‘no response’ and I am offended when someone ignores something I said/suggested rather than give me a direct answer.
Sorry to hear that. It sounds like you made a direct offer/suggestion which was rudely ignored. My buddy’s date-like offers were sandwiched between other sentences, so I would classify them more accurately as “testing the water date-like offers” — Because they were indirectly offered, almost as asides, so my not responding is ok and I know I didn’t offend as we’ve played pool together many times since then. Now if he ever asked DIRECTLY, “How about checking out the pool hall a few towns over next Saturday?” I would respond directly.
It does sound like you are keeping him in your hip pocket as plan B if your current relationship fails. You don’t want to be clear about whether you would consider dating him or not so he keeps some low level of interest. Is that accurate?
I could see how you could interpret it that way. But no, I have no ulterior motives. My indirectness keeps us both free to seek out others, and the attraction is simply not great enough on either side to act upon, especially at the expense of our easy friendship.
If your indirect communication style works for you both, that is great. It puts me off and I know some other men think like I do.
Yes, the indirect communication works for us (marymary’s commentary on saving face definitely applies here, as well as the fact that there really is no pressing need or desire to level up the relationship in any way).
I think that I’ve been luckier than most women (and men) on this site as I’ve had buddy-ships and friendships with the opposite sex that spawned from interactions that had nothing to do with dating as the goal (competitive coed sports). Sometimes the men were attracted to me but I wasn’t attracted to them…and sometimes I was attracted to them and they weren’t attracted to me. Having learned how to navigate those intricate dynamics in my youth and into my late 30’s has stood me in good stead in my “middle-age” : ) — So indirect communications have become second nature and are extraordinarily useful in creating maintaining opposite-sex friendships as well as in dating/mating.
I think a lot of women “project” on this site (e.g., men want smart, successful, strong women) and you may be doing the same, you are a man and are direct and you thihk women being indirect is rude, when in fact, indirectness in women is oftentimes the best way to communicate with men, especially on potentially sensitive issues, such as outright rejection.
If you’re objecting my acknowledgment of my power to level up the friendship at my discretion, then I’d have to say “tough luck.” : ) You guys get to control how far and how deep a relationship goes and flows, us women have the control to let it get started or not. Those powers are equivalent, imo.
David T says
@Mary I have heard of saving face and such, but frankly just don’t see the point, maybe because I have learned not to take rejection personally. To beat the metaphor to death I am fine with my own social standing/face/confidence and do not need or want assistance from anyone else in maintaining it.
@Tom10 and Karmic
My “hip pocket” thought was based on little information and I came to the wrong conclusion. Sounds like he is not all that interested in dating Karmic, or is himself concerned about asking directly to get together because of his knowledge of her status and is maybe just testing the waters in a somewhat weak way. I think I will keep my future in-between-the-lines reading to myself
Nuanced flirting is fun but when it comes to making logistical plans, nuanced communication is a good way to never pulling anything together, or worse, one person thinking there is a plan, when the other does not. With both people looking for foggy confirmation from the other and trying to read between the lines all the time, there are bound to be misunderstandings. Planning is when I want direct and clear communication, even if it is “I like the idea but don’t know if I can yet” or “nah, feels too much like a date and that would make me uncomfortable” etc.
Karmic Equation says
@David T
Nah. Your between the lines reading is interesting. Don’t stop.
If you are having nuanced communications after a woman has indicated she is receptive to making logistical plans, then the woman is just not that into you.
If you’re ASKING a woman CLEARLY if she’d like to make plans with you, and she’s not giving you a straight answer, then just take it as not interested, and use your judgment on whether or not to continue pursuit (sounds like you stop, that’s ok).
If you’re not DIRECT in YOUR asking and you’re forcing a woman to state her interest when your asking is kind of foggy, then you’re not being fair and if she dodges that’s her prerogative. As a man, you have to be direct, women appreciate that.
Tom10 was right, if my friend had asked me CLEARLY and DIRECTLY for a date over the summer, when I wasn’t yet in an exclusive relationship, I probably would have said sure. But the fact that he was indirect and, as a woman, I perceived his indirectness as kind of unmanly, I chose to mirror his indirectness instead of clearly stating anything interest or disinterest. He’s the man, he’s gotta pursue and be man enough to risk rejection. Most women, subconsciously, will respond positively to that bravery (risking rejection). We don’t respond positively to lack of bravery. Just how we are wired.
I think that’s why players are so successful, unlike the typical nice guy who walks away after the first no. Players “try and try” again, usually a few times and with a different angle each time, and a woman, in her subconscious, perceives that (1) he is brave to try again and (2) also gets a subliminal message that the guy must really value her (whether true or not) and (3) cannot help but to admire his perseverance. That’s a powerful mix of manliness and ego-stroking and connection. Tough for most women to withstand. Hence why most women in the Players & Narcissist thread got taken by players in the past. This is just my opinion. YMMV.
Lucy says
@Karmic – I always find your posts so insightful. And I just found your blog = win!
Karmic Equation says
@Lucy
Thanks 🙂
Rochelle says
@Karmic “I think that’s why players are so successful, unlike the typical nice guy who walks away after the first no. Players “try and try” again, usually a few times and with a different angle each time, and a woman, in her subconscious, perceives that (1) he is brave to try again and (2) also gets a subliminal message that the guy must really value her (whether true or not) and (3) cannot help but to admire his perseverance. ”
So true…I admit I am quite attracted to players because of their perseverance. It’s sexy. I have had to just rewire my mentality in staying true to my boundaries, not worrying about whether or not they are really interested, and not let their “game” run me. The experiences I had were good practice of using my feminine energy this year, being more confident and getting stronger inside.
Actually the above is the way to be with any guy but it is more challenging with a player.
Susan61 says
I had a great first date last week with a man I met online Second date has already been set up. He emailed me that night of our first meeting and three days later emailed me again to set up another date for this coming week I don’t mind emailing as opposed to a phone call since we met online.
Yet I am really try to keep my feelings in check as I am already finding myself projecting about him (it’s been a few years since I’ve met someone I’ve been this excited about) and I realize that I have to let go of any and all expectations, and not attach to outcome. I barely know this guy!
Connie says
When I first met my boyfriend he was pretty aloof and acted like he didn’t think I was all that great, but he still wanted to be exclusive. I think pretty highly of myself so I was surprised by him just acting like I was okay to be with, but he seemed to be the nicest guy I met online so I continued to see him.
One day I overheard him telling my teenage son that you shouldn’t act like you like a girl too much because she’ll get overconfident and move on to someone else. That explained a lot. It’s been a year now and he’s totally into me and not afraid to show it.
Joe says
@ Connie: sounds like it worked…
Karmic Equation says
@Joe 92
LMAO — Didn’t see it that way until you commented.
Lucy says
I think I’m at the point where I need to read this advice more often. I had a date last night and gave in to first date sex. So the waiting game is even crazier now because I’m considering what he might do and trying to hold back a little. The dopamine fix is killing me and is probably likely to give me unrealistic expectations.
Tracy says
Great post and something women don’t think about, especially when they are waiting for that call. Still, after many dates and no word back, women are still left wondering. I suspect men wonder, too, but they handle it differently.
I met someone via work, we exchanged business cards and he contacted me the next day, saying he’d like to get together. A few days later, he emailed again saying he was out of town for work and would email when he got back. He did and we had a great first date (no hook up!) I left it at that. I was certainly interested in seeing him again, but didn’t contact him. He contacted me hours after the date, saying it was a pleasure spending time with me and he’d like to go out again. I said I would enjoy that.
I didn’t hear from him for a week (I know he has a busy job). Then he contacted me apologizing for not calling me earlier. He was going away for the holidays for two weeks, but asked my “permission” to call when he got back. I said yes. That was a month ago and no word.
So, he could have a busy job, a wife/girlfriend or simply is not interested. Certainly he was gentleman-like all along and contacted me when he said he would. But that was that. I don’t expect to hear from him; even perfect gentlemen change their minds!
Evan’s right; we women reject men all the time, simply by not replying to emails online or worse. It’s part of the dating game. I am sure men are hurt by it all too. But they don’t rack their brains over it!
Susan61 says
Reading this thread again as I wait for a man to contact me to confirm a date (#5) this week, yes in just two days. We had, what I thought, were four really great dates over the last six weeks (including a break over the holidays when he went out of town). He only emails, he does not call and he’s in his mid 40’s. This morning after re-reading our last email volley I am thinking that HE thinks I did not clearly confirm the date in my email response to his invitation last week (yes, 7 days ago) but I feel we DID confirm and that is on HIM to contact me again to confirm our date in two days. At first I responded that I was not sure because the date was a bit off in the distance (he had child care duties) and thus it seemed like he was not that interested but then when I learned his schedule I said I was interested and available. His last response to me was “let’s check in later in the week” and that was a week ago. I have not seen him since our last date which was 2 weeks ago.
Is this how divorced men with kids in their mid-40’s behave? I don’t feel it should be on ME to contact him today to confirm if we are still on for this date in two nights. I know the answer: if he was really into me and looking forward to seeing me, he would have contacted me to confirm the plan. But here I am in limbo, wondering if we’re on or off. We had a previous date where I felt he left things “hanging” and I emailed him the day before to confirm (because I was not going o have internet access between then and the date) and he confirmed – via email. That was before date #4, all dates initiated by him. I thought we had a great time on date #4.
Yet when I re-read the emails from a week ago (which like texting, is a terrible way to make plans when dating) it seems he may have misinterpreted my email and he thinks it was on ME to confirm. Of course, this is all conjecture.
With any other human being or situation, I would do what normal people do. I would contact the person to confirm the plan if there was any question in my mind. But since this is a man I’m dating, I feel that is putting me in “pursuit” mode which in the early stages of dating is a no-no. I suppose if I just wait and he does not contact me then I’ll have my answer but it’s disheartening and annoying to have to deal with this sort of behavior. But I would really just prefer to KNOW today so I can make other plans and plan my week. *sigh* I feel like an idiot even posting this because I know what everyone will say. “He’s not that interested.”
Kathleen says
Susan 61
You are too attached to the outcome The key to dating is to mirror , be warm and happy and keep the pipeline full. I feel the angst in your post I bet he feels it too.
If a guy is very interested he will pursue you. If he doesn’t release the worry and keep going. You know when you’ll get there because it will become very fun!!
Jennifer says
Susan61#96
Hi Susan, two things:
– did you say in your email to him that it looked like he might not be that interested? If so I wouldn’t advise saying things like that to him again
– I don’t think it’s the end of the world if you casually check in to confirm, but I think it’s better if you wait and see. And like Kathleen says, I get you feel tense about this but really try hard to relax because ultimately it doesn’t matter- he is just one guy. there will be others 🙂
marymary says
Susan
four dates in six weeks makes him little more than a stranger. In fact, I think you,d have better odds with a stranger. I would forget him, however much you think you like him or got physical together. Even if he did contact me now, I,d assume it was because something else fell through and I,m the back up. No thanks. I.d rather stay home.
Go ahead and make your plans.
ps he gets a pass if he,s on a manned space mission.
Susan61 says
Thanks for the replies. He did email me this morning to confirm our date. I do feel like he’s slowly pulling back and maybe even ‘friend-zoning” me is a possibiltiy – but why bother doing that? @Kathleen – I hear you, but actually I am much cooler, carefree and fun when I’m with him. I save the angst for friends and dating advice blogs. He has initiated every date thus far.
@Jennifer – no, I did not say that it looked like he might not be interested. He was asking me to get together the following week and it seemed like so far off that he wasn’t that interested. Then he told me his schedule (yet it seems if was very interested he would have wanted to try to see me sooner…) with kids, etc. Anyway, I’m glad I waited and he did email me today. He is just one guy, for sure, but it’s rare for me to click with a guy and it’s been years since I’ve really dated or was this interested in someone. And when you’re 50, it’s not like available guys are everywhere or lining up, it’s a bit harder.
@marymary. We met just before Christmas and he has 50% custody of his children and also went out of town over the holidays so that is one explanation for only four dates but you are right, it could also mean he’s dating others and is not that interested in me. I guess I’ll find out soon.
Karl R says
Susan61 said: (#100)
“he has 50% custody of his children”
I dated a woman for over 8 months who had 50% custody. For most of that time, she was dating me (and only me). One night per week would be our date night. One night per week she ran errands. One night per week she spent with one or more girlfriends. The remaining nights were spent with her kids.
While she wasn’t dating other men during that time, she also wasn’t interested in pursuing a long-term relationship with me. Her next boyfriend (whom she wanted a long-term relationship with) got more of her time by moving in with her. That relationship ended and she got married to a third man. (It was a long-distance relationship, so she probably spent less time with him.)
Susan61 said: (#96)
“He only emails, he does not call and he’s in his mid 40”²s.”
Different people prefer different forms of communication. If he expects to be interrupted frequently, emails are a lot more convenient than phone calls.
Susan61 asked: (#100)
“I do feel like he’s slowly pulling back and maybe even ‘friend-zoning’ me is a possibiltiy — but why bother doing that?”
The company of an attractive member of the opposite sex can be rewarding in itself, even if there’s no long-term potential and no sexual activity.
In my experience, my gut feeling that someone is pulling back has almost always been correct.
Susan61 said: (#96)
“This morning after re-reading our last email volley I am thinking that HE thinks I did not clearly confirm the date in my email response to his invitation “
Kathleen said: (#97)
“The key to dating is to mirror”
Mirroring works both ways. The response you give a man should be equal to the interest he showed you. If it’s not, you’re not mirroring.
For example, let’s assume that I invite a woman to see the play at the community theater on Friday and she gives me some version of “Maybe” as a response, then I would say that it’s up her to clarify her interest. I already indicated my interest. If she wants to mirror me, her response should be “Yes.”
A smart male dater will be very attuned to mirroring, and mirroring extends to almost every aspect of the relationship. If I call a woman and leave a voice mail, mirroring would lead her to call me back (and leave a voice mail if she doesn’t reach me). If she doesn’t call, she’s expressing her lack of interest. If I write a two page email to a woman, I should get a 1 to 3 page email in response. If I get a hastily written 4 line email, she’s expressing her lack of interest.
When there’s a communication breakdown (i.e. Susan61 confirmed the date but her boyfriend doesn’t necessarily realize she did), then the miscommunication fault is shared equally. I would encourage the person who recognizes it first to clarify things, since the other person may remain oblivious to the error.
Kathleen says
Susan 61
If it was me I would have told him that I already had made plans since you hadn’t heard from him.
If you haven’t read any of Sherry Argovs “Bitches ” books id highly recommend them also.
At 54 I never took any guy too seriously no matter how much i felt we clicked and I kept my pipeline full ( I have a boyfriend now) My 55 year old best friend also has great guys lining up so your belief that you have few choices because of age may be limiting you
I love Evans 2 questions that help assess a guy.
1 Am i feeling good .Having fun?
2. Is he making an effort ?
Good luck
Alexandra says
It seems to me like Susan is overanalyzing the man’s behavior. You can make this much more simple. If you don’t like how he communicates (e-mails instead of calls, goes for weeks without initiating contact, etc.), then move on to meet a man who communicates his interest in a level that is satisfactory to your needs. If he’s not making an effort to woo you now, what makes you believe he will later? I understand that a connection is rare and you may feel wonderful when you’re with him, but how is he making you feel when you’re not with him? By your posts, Susan, it seems like the answer is “not very good” or a combination between anxious, unsure, confused, etc.
I have yet to hear a woman in a stable 30+ year marriage who describes how she met her husband to be like Susan’s posts/comments. Like Evan would say, BELIEVE that the RIGHT man will make you feel safe, secure and wanted right off the bat. Believe that when you meet the man who is RIGHT for you, you will not be e-mailing Evan or reading the Internet for answers on what you should do. With the right man, it is all very clear. Yes there are exceptions, but as always with exceptions, it’s not very wise to count on being one.
It might be harder to date at your age, Susan, but there are a lot of men out there. Don’t make the mistake of generalizing with statements like “all divorced men in their 40’s act this way”. This is ONE man. Get back online and find the man who will make you feel safe. Good luck!
Ellen says
Kathleen #102: An older friend said much the same thing to me several years ago when I was in the throes and thick of online dating. She said “Ellen keep it simple: Are you having fun?” ” If not, then you have your answer.”
Re age, I am aware, more than ever now that I’m seeing an anti-aging expert, that we do not all age the same. I am unusual ’cause I made it to 50 looking good, thanks to great genes, plastic surgery and being an athlete all my life. That said, I am sick and tired of hearing over fifty women hear bemoan the fact they are invisible or no longer wanted. Garbage! There are still quite a few (and it’s increasing) men over 45 and 50 who want your company. Sometimes it takes them a while to realize they just aren’t going to snag the 30- and 40-somethings anymore.
And if you project that vibe that you are somehow damaged goods, guess what? you will repel imo the very category of men you are targeting. The 41 year old man I dated 9 months before my current bf of one year (and a keeper) never once questioned my age, but then I had him convinced I was born in 1961, not 1953 (I know, I know, horrible), but I only did that ’cause he was status conscious. He was the exception (most men I told at date #3). All I can think is I acted confident most of the time I was with him and that helped with the illusion.
In the three years I dated I only once got an abusive, derogatory remark about my true age. But then I dated gentlemen for the most part, young and old.
Susan61 says
Thanks for the feedback, Karl R. That was helpful.
Kathleen, we did have an actual date scheduled but since it was discussed only via email and several days went by with no contact, it felt like a nebulous plan to me. That led me to feel some “angst” and post here, as a way to just get it off my chest and get some feedback as well. Perhaps in *his* mind it was a solid plan and lo and behold, he confirmed yesterday.
I have read that book “Why Men Love Bitches”, and perhaps should read it again. And thank you for pointing out that I am harboring a limiting belief about my age. (This man is younger than I am…) I am working on letting go of limiting beliefs as they do not serve me!
I had fun on our dates. I felt we had a lot of the dreaded “chemistry”. Ah well. I’m committed to having fun with him on this pending date, no matter what. Letting a man decide my worthiness or attractiveness is something I no longer subscribe to. His behavior is really about HIM and while in the past I would have taken it personally, my renewed motto is “don’t take anything personally” (read “The Four Agreements”). While I am definitely attracted to him, if he does only want to be “friends” it’s OK. My ego may feel slightly stung but I will get over it quickly. I barely know him.
Is he making an effort? He was. His efforts have clearly slowed down. I do think being transitioned into a “friend” is a distinct possibility. It’s not the end of the world although it’s not the ideal outcome. I do still wonder, Karl R, why he would bother yet as I recall, he did mention on our dates that he needs more “friends”. I thought he meant male friends but hey, maybe that was a little red flag. Yet, I am really trying to let go, live in the moment and detach from any particular outcome.
Onwards and upwards!
Kathleen says
Ellen 104
I always appreciate your posts You’d be a fun person to meet and talk with.
You sound confident with great self esteem and that is very attractive to men regardless of age. It is communicated with body language and also giving men the sense that you have other interested suitors available to move on to.
My current boyfriend of 46 and before him a guy of 40, could care less about my age. They’ve had their kids.
Yes “Are you having fun with him” is the ultimate easy question and it you are feeling angst when you’re not with him, you are wasting your own precious time and happiness.
Ellen says
Kathleen #106: Thanks Kathleen. I think we’d enjoy chatting and maybe someday will meet offline. I can be found by going to the Intrepid Travel FB page and searching on upcoming Morocco vacations in April (I left a message).
You wrote: “It is communicated with body language and also giving men the sense that you have other interested suitors available to move on to.”- Yeah, one day, long after my bf and I had committed to each other BOTH of my male platonic friends called my house while he was there and OMG he treats me like a princess as it is, but that day he was over the top. Lmsao
Yeah, and if your entire “package” of education, looks, personality is, say, 50 points, I really think confidence gives you a solid 10!
PS Whilst dating younger, I honestly felt you can make a soul connection with someone even if they are 10 years or so younger. But I never really wanted anything long-term with a much younger man for practical reasons. Wouldn’t want them to watch me age at a faster rate for one thing!
Kathleen says
Yes Ellen 107
Ive attracted more men in my 50s than 20s because of confidence. Who knew When I got divorced I thought my romantic life was over.
Couldn’t find u on that FB page but I commented on Evans FB post re the bar scene
Susan61 says
OK, I just want to report that my date (#5) was a smashing success. So all that worrying and angst for nothing. Of course, there are no guarantees of anything but wow, we had such a great, fun night and he emailed me this morning. I’m really trying to practice present moment living and not worrying about the past or the future…it’s a challenge but it’s so much more fun. I still think he may be dating others but that’s OK, I will do the same. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t, I had 5 fun dates with an attractive man. And BTW, he is six years younger.
Ellen says
Susan61: Fantastic. Good luck with him and all the men you date. It took me three years, but I finally found my guy. You will too.
Ellen says
Kathleen: There were technical difficulties on the Intrepid site, but I just left a message and it finally worked! Yeah! I’ll try to remember to go on FB and see your post as well. Everyone have a great weekend! I plan to make LOTS of fires. Me and my guy cut wood (he did actually) last weekend near his work bldgs., then we sat in chairs very very still for nearly two hrs. to try to get a glimpse of deer. Deer season ended here in SC on Jan. 1. No deer though 🙁
judy says
Dating experience has shown me that if a man can’t even be bothered to call or get my number, next.
During the day, men DO have the time to call usually – they just don’t want to if they’re not interested.
Or, said another way, if he doesn’t have three minutes to call, then I don’t have an evening to spare either.
JoJOe says
Never worry again about THE CALL BACK
Unless !!!!!!!!! You acted outside of your values.
Then only worry why you did something you regret and NEVER do THAT again.
If you have acted within your values and you did not get THE CALL BACK.
FORGET ABOUT IT
The universe, your intuition, your higher self, are protecting you from your ego.
He went to call, but he tripped and his cell was run over by a bus.
He went to call, but he was hit by a bus
He went to call, but was suddenly chased by a black bear
He went to call, but his car caught on fire
etc……….
Believe me, universal intelligence is keeping this guy off your doorstep.
Let him go, forget about it… why…… because the better one or the right one does not want him in the picture.
Just smile and say to yourself “ooooooo, there’s someone better? WOW”
judy says
JoJoe 113 – yes, I think you’re absolutely right. If he didn’t call back, he just was either rude or not interested. In both cases, if he said he would ring back, he is not a man of integrity or of his word.
A total loser.
judy says
JoJoe – by the way, thanks for the good laugh. Chased by a black bear? Love it.
JoJOe says
Judy, yes, I’m right. But when you say “he’s a total loser”
You are putting emotion on it and that’s where it gets you angry.
Anger is not the best colour on you. Find a happy colour, actually think of a colour that you like. There you will find the match in your days ahead.
Sounds silly, maybe, but read up on the emotion of colour and colour therapy.
I feel inclined to ask you to ponder this. Why.. I don’t know.
Destiny says
Good luck
Kay says
Sometimes people can just be very busy with work etc and guys don’t tend to share the details of their diaries early on.
My husband of 19 years kept me waiting about 3 weeks between calls/dates initially. I was dating other guys during this time, so didn’t get fazed. When we became exclusive, he called daily.
Everyone is different and some times guys are just hectic at work and want to wait to call until they can arrange to spend quality time with you. Unless you’ve got a crystal ball, chilax and enjoy yourself in the meantime.
Dina Strange says
Maybe, because I am from a different culture, but I get a feeling, everyone is so “desperate” to meet someone. I understand, it sucks to be alone, but….finding the “one” shouldn’t be the only goal in life.
Didi says
I just started dating after 8 yrs of being alone (by choice). It has helped my self esteem quit a bit. Knowing attractive guys were actually paying attention to me and not just undesirable people (and I say people because you will get hit on by same sex even when you’re straight). Physical attraction is important. However, I had been very hesitant to do it because I totally agree with you. It’s a big game. I don’t think people realize they play with people ‘s emotions. For example; you meet a man you really like. He flirts, talk to you daily, has a huge part in you raising your expectations and poof! They disappear. I don’t think we should turn into these emotionless humans just because we are dating. How about be honest and say, “I’m not interested”? If you tell them about you or they read it in your profile, they should know exactly who they are asking out on a date and should know what to expect. But to blame the person that feels hurt is rediculous. The majority of the people will get if you just tell the truth. No one should play with people’s feeling. So you don’t get a call from a guy, you wait three days and now you are clingy? What about those daily calls and texts he made for days and days. This is not cool at all. It makes just want to go back to “I will to see if I ever run into my future mate by chance in the middle of the street. The old fashion way. I totally agree with “M” #21. Dating is a disgusting game.
Ren says
I met a guy on a free online dating site. We went out — got a quick bite to eat for the first date with a kiss good night. The second date, we met at his place because of his medical work schedule. We watched a movie, talked, cuddled, laughed and kissed plenty of times. He was going out of town for a work conference the next day for a couple of days. I text him to ask if he was back. He never responded. When I text had he been checking my profile on the dating site, his little name for me; he now said he was being “nice”. That was six months ago. I didn’t understand what happened. I was initially confused because things were going well. I thought it might have been something I said or done while on the second date that he didn’t like. Well, a few days ago, I found out he got married this October. His main FB profile pictures shows his/her hands with wedding rings. Now, I understand his “disappearing act”. His disappearing act had nothing to do with me. I guess he wanted to have fun before getting married. I didn’t give or loose anything except time!
Don’t Waste Time wondering what happened to these “Disappearing Men”. Just Move On and Continue Dating!
Andrew says
Yup, women as usual are always or usually in the position of “waiting”, I understand that men are expected to approach and make the first move, ask out, do the pursuing plan the first couple of dates(and the majority of them thereafter), but why even in the beginning, is the man always expected to call or text first? a lot of us guys would love to know the woman is reciprocating on our part, know she is interested in us too, so why has it always been, and always is, women are passive, women are in the “waiting” position in the dating/mating game?
Don’t say “why is the Sky blue?”, because there is a reason why the Sky is blue, A clear cloudless day-time sky is blue because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colours because the bluelight has been scattered out and away from the line of sight.”
So if there is an explanation as to why the sky is blue, then there has to be an explanation as to why women are stubbornly passive in the dating/mating game.
Anja says
When I first met my husband he did not kiss me until our fourth date. In his case he had moved fast on a few relationships only to be badly burned and really want to take the time to try and get to know someone. During this time on our first few dates I was still online, going on other dates, and talking to other people. Nothing was in a serious state with anyone and even though I did like my husband I knew like other dates that I did not know what was going to happen, how much he liked me, if he would continue to ask me out, etc. And vice versa. So I consciously let go of the outcome after every date to not become emotionally attached to the outcome and stayed busy with other communications and things in my life. Even though you really like this guys you could find out a month or two down the road that he has a hug deal breaker and you need to move on. That is where the silver lining of Internet dating comes in, in that this continual communication with people reminds us to keep on moving forward with our lives and to take things one communication at a time.
Johanny says
Oh Evan,
You are so right it hurts!
Amber Gardner says
And this is why modern dating sucks, and we should avoid sex before marriage at all costs. I want to wait for marriage to have sex, but I don’t want to wait forever. Days for a phone call? 1-8 months before you realize it’s not working? 300 dates before you get married? WHAT????
Evan Marc Katz says
Keep doing what you’re doing, Amber. Sounds like you’ve got things under control.
Lisa says
The comment about how some women think it’s okay to not respond to a man and he will take a hint, I agree that it is okay for either party not to respond and hope the other will take a hint, if you have never met before. People get too many emails and if you don’t get a response then it is understood. However, if you have gone out on at least one date, yet alone three I think you at least owe the person a hey I met someone else or I am not interested. That’s just human nature.
mary says
Hello M!
I’m interested in your comment.
How will you find someone if you don’t date?
Alex says
I agree that it is anti-climatic and kills the romance when a woman waits around for a guy to call her who she feels should be more interested.
How long does it take to call? 15 minutes? A guy doesn’t even have that time out of the day?
I always feel a guy isn’t that interested or has someone else when it’s done to me. I don’t know a man’s agenda or true intentions when we first met and don’t want to get too invested and then hurt.
Dating is difficult enough and if someone isn’t making you feel special then I guess they aren’t your person.