When Did Guys Lose All The Power In Dating?
- Dating, What Men Want
Dear Evan,
I’ve been reading your blog for a long time now and most of the comments are great to read as well. The one thing that bothers me a little is the sense I get from your posts and the comments that men have all the power in the dating/relationship game and it’s always the woman chasing the man for a date/relationship/marriage/babies/etc.
As an early 30’s male, I struggle with dating. It hasn’t been all bad, nor am I saying that I’m unattractive or in some way undesirable enough that I can’t get any woman to like me. I’m an average-looking (perhaps above average-looking) guy who isn’t very tall (5’7”). I do like to think that I have a lot to offer, including a good overall personality and sense of humor, but for some reason I tend to go out with girls who are ‘masculine’ like in their dating personalities (afraid of commitment, wants to date multiple men, A-type personality.) A lot of times I can get a girl to be initially attracted to me, but for some reason it never lasts. The girl almost always ends up telling me that she “doesn’t know quite what it is, but it’s just not there.” This frustrates me because I’m left confused, not knowing what it is I’m doing – or not doing – to turn these women off. I don’t think I’m being too clingy or anything like that. I have this feeling, though, that I’m being too ‘nice’ and not having enough of a masculine energy to sustain attraction in these women. Btw – most of the girls I date are from JDate, and no – I don’t only go for 9’s and 10’s.
I can’t be the only guy who goes through this stuff and I’m kinda tired of this stereotype that guys have all the power in the dating world. Do you have any words of wisdom for me?
Jay
Dear Jay,
Even though I bill myself as “dating coach for smart, strong, successful women,” 25% of my clients were “nice guys” for the first six years of my practice.
Smart, strong, successful women need to soften up.
Nice guys need to man up.
In fact, if I were to think about it, I have a lot in common with both my male and female clients. I’m the “smart, strong, successful” type myself, and I have the flaws that often go with that archetype — I’m driven, opinionated, bossy, critical, and difficult. At the same time, I’m a nice guy. I was the lovelorn teenager who’d befriend all the pretty girls in high school but didn’t lose his virginity until sophomore year of college.
So I have a real understanding of both sides and how each needs to make a few subtle shifts to have more success in love.
Smart, strong, successful women need to soften up.
But the prognosis is good for you, Jay. You’re easier to help than many of the women I work with. I’m not making any judgments, of course, but objectively, it’s easier to find a wife for a 32-year-old relationship-oriented man who doesn’t need to date 10’s than it is to find a husband for a 43-year-old woman who wants her own biological children.
Where to begin in the space of a 1000 word blog post?
Let’s start with your mindset.
You nailed it. You’re not giving off a lot of masculine energy. And women (especially smart, strong, successful ones) want a man who is MORE man than they are.
I hearken back to Dr. Pat Allen who said, “If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.” This is not a call to arbitrarily be more obstinate, but rather to have your own opinions and convictions. Make decisions. Take control.
(To the women reading this and saying, “YES!”, that means you have to LET him take control and make decisions, not micromanage him to doing what YOU want. )
Once you put a woman up on a pedestal, she’s immediately looking down at you.
Next, Jay, I want you to check out a book. It’s called “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Dr. Robert Glover. I read it to understand Nice Guy Syndrome and thought it was spot-on. He points out that being “nice” is a pathology and a form of martyrdom that is highly ineffective, and somewhat manipulative. As such, you can’t “nice” your way into a woman’s heart, but you can be a man and still be extremely nice.
I’d like to think that my wife thinks of me this way.
In any case, pick up a copy of the book here on my bibliography page.
Finally, I want you to keep in mind my Pedestal Principle, as outlined in my Finding the One Online audio series. It states:
“Once you put a woman up on a pedestal, she’s immediately looking down at you.”
And that’s the thing that nice guys don’t quite understand. You think you’re being good to her, but she loses respect for you because you have no balls whatsoever.
That’s what happens when you’re a pleaser and you’re not being pleased in return. A power imbalance results, and you never recover from it. I’m willing to guess that this has happened with most of your girlfriends who’ve dumped you. They had the power, you lost the control, and the rest is history.
In a healthy relationship, there’s a mutual respect — a respect that’s earned with having your own convictions. Men with convictions have a LOT of power in the dating game — as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of heartbroken women who read this blog.
But you’re right about how frustrating it is — you watch a bunch of selfish tools use women for their short-term gain — and you wonder why they’re attracted to those men. It’s because they’re confident, unpredictable, and they don’t have all the control.
So what do you do now?
You make the immediate shift that SHE’S the lucky one in the relationship and that it’s up to YOU if you decide to be exclusive or get married. This is the exact same thing I tell my “nice women” who have given away their power to men.
And once you learn to say no and stand on conviction, you might be surprised when women start treating you differently — like a man, not a boy.
You’re the catch. You’re the commodity. And the right person is going to get that and hold onto you for dear life. If he/she doesn’t value you and want to commit? Fuck ‘em.
Move on.
It’s called the Power of No. And once you learn to say no and stand on conviction, you might be surprised when women start treating you differently — like a man, not a boy.
Good luck and thanks for the jolt of testosterone in today’s mailbag.
By the way, I do still work with a handful of motivated male clients.
Christie Hartman, PhD says
What a nice change to hear from a man! It’s a good reminder that dating is a struggle for men just like it is for women. I have to agree with Evan on the solution to the OP’s problem. A man HAS to have enough masculine energy, and he can still be a good guy at the the same time.
Evan’s advice is a refreshing change from some of the other crap I’ve read for men, which often boils down to: “She dumped you because you were too nice. Women don’t like nice. Thus, you can’t be nice.” It’s like Logic for Idiots. Masculine guys who are jerks will get women, but their success is short-lived. Masculine guys who are nice – well, they’re the ones who have no trouble getting women and keeping them around.
sara says
Even i believe that men have all the power in dating and woman are the chasers. But yes, Mr.Nice guys are a real turn off. They immediately get included to the friend list.
Here i must say that ive lived in States & now in London, the difference i felt is American guys are really so naive, friendly and looking to create home while English guys are over-egoistics, shag and drunk.
In this article, let’s replace this guy to a woman, what advise you will give it to her?
starthrower68 says
Not sure how old this question is, but a smart woman learns not to chase. She does exactly what Evan instructs our brother in the struggle to do.
Denise says
I loved the answer Evan gave…it was right on. Just like men don’t want a woman with ‘masculine’ energy, women don’t want a man with ‘feminine’ energy.
Another thing I thought was fascinating was when I was in a discussion with men and how they have been ‘brainwashed’ throughout their life about women. They have been instructed that women are to be put on a pedestal, that basically women think all men are rapists–so tread lightly with her, women are just like men–actually, women are ‘better’, and men will never live up to our standards, women don’t need men–they can support themselves and have babies without them, that men ‘should’ be more like women–not dominant or telling us what to do. One on hand they are told they are predators and the other they are told they are expendible. Geez Louise!
Bill says
At the end of the day men and women are idiots. Too concentrated on a a certain idealistic perception while ignoring all the important qualities.
Jackie says
Smart, strong, successful women need to soften up. Nice guys need to man up.
Evan, Preach it until it’s worn out! It’s sooo true… there is so much gender chaos!
It’s like these roles we created for ourselves are moving us further from happy relationships and procreation rather than towards them. *sigh*
starthrower says
@ Sara #2, yes, women are the chasers. It is what it is.
starthrower68 says
And then after my new response above, I saw I said this. Evidently a few years ago because I stopped that chasing thing.
Steve says
If you tell a man what to do and he listens, he isn’t a man.
That is pretty close to a thought I have had for years. A man doesn’t wait for other people to tell him what a man is. Assholes don’t don’t care what other people want, need or think. That gives them an aura of power that women find attractive.”Nice guy” is really code for an “insecure guy” who tries to ward off rejection by manipulation ( conscious or not ) with favors, gifts and being “nice”. Then there are men who have their own opinions, their own agendas, who aren’t afraid if what they are turns a particular women off and they are confident enough in these things that they can to be genuinely nice because that is how they like to roll.
JB says
12/2/10
Some guys have NEVER had any power in dating and others have had it and more importantly KEPT it since the 8th grade right on and through adulthood.I think to have so called “power” you have to have “options” and most guys that are 5’7″ have a lot less options than a guy that’s taller unless of course they have soap opera star good looks, or have high status/high value ie: high profile job/title,large income….etc Especially when it comes to online dating.This poor guy Jay on JDate is competing against every guy on the site and who do you think has more “options”(power)on there”nice” average looking(I’m assuming) 5’7″ Jay who gets a response/wink or 2 occasionally or the women on there getting 50-75 responses (or more) a week mostly from taller more masculine “alpha” guys? How’s he going to get and/or KEEP their interest?Obviously he hasn’t or he wouldn’t of wrote Evan.
I had a date last week with a woman from Match,she showed up and looked younger than her pic.Yay !!! Cute too except between her voice and her personality not to mention the buzz cut in the back of her hair that I couldn’t see in the pics.She came off too masculine.Booo…I thought I was having a drink with a brunette “Pink!”(<–the singer)…lol Now I,and some men love Pink!’s music but no man has EVER said “damn,that Pink! is hot that’s for sure.The point is even though I’m not that attracted to this slightly masculine women she still has more “power” THAN me.She just doesn’t have “power” OVER me because I’m not interested.She has so many options she doesn’t have to care what I think because she gets 50 responses a week to my 2 winks.
Who has the “power” in any male /female scenario? The one who cares the least and has the most options. So in online dating MOST but not ALL women DO have the “power”.
moonsical says
Without a man acting like one, I find my feminine side doesn’t show itself. The truth is, women want an f-ing break. But unlikely to drop the reins until a man shows he can take ’em. I have dated the, “nice guy.” It’s exhausting, can be passive-agressive…isn’t even real.
With a man who’s caring, knows what he thinks and says it, has boundaries and takes control sometimes, I unfold like a flower. And hey, if he’s jerky sometimes…he’s real. I don’t have to be perfect, either. Phew. What a relief.
Evan preaches to the females about having an opinion. That’s a good place to start.
moon
starthrower68 says
I was married to that passive agressive type for 12 years. And he wasn’t even nice. At least not to the children and myself. He put an entirely different face on for everyone else. Tell me about exhausting.
Joe says
Actually, JB, Pink is pretty hot. I’ll grant you that she’s not hot in a conventional way, but just do a Google image search on her and see what comes up.
Denise says
#9 moonsical
Nice post! Funny how male/female relationships are truly ying/yang. His being masculine makes a woman feel feminine and her being feminine brings out his masculinity. We just each have to play our ‘role’.
Men feel masculine when they have success with women (which primarily means having sex) and they are making progress in their mission (which is often their career, but not always).
Women feel feminine when obtain men’s resources (attention, humor, affection, labor, time, listening, money) and they have a purpose greater than themselves (like having children, charity work, starting a business, etc.)
Men give (DO), women receive (FEEL).
Instinctively we want a man that we fel can take care of us. If he’s ‘NICE’ and ACCOMODATING all the time to us, how is he going to stand up to us or anyone else that may threaten us? It kills our attraction.
Steve’s post #7 is awesome too. This is being authentic:
Then there are men who have their own opinions, their own agendas, who aren’t afraid if what they are turns a particular women off and they are confident enough in these things that they can to be genuinely nice because that is how they like to roll.
Sherell says
“You’re the catch. You’re the commodity. And the right person is going to get that and hold onto you for dear life. If he/she doesn’t value you and want to commit? Fuck ‘em. Move on.”
LOVE IT!!!!!
J.A. says
Hey guys and girls- OP here:
Thanks for all your responses so far and I thought Evan had some great advice. I really don’t think the problem is that I’m giving off a feminine energy, just not (enough) of a masculine one. But the last girl I dated was a perfect example of what has happened to me too many times in the past:
We met off jdate and after just 2 or 3 dates she was texting and calling me all throughout the day telling me that she misses me and that we have so much in common and she really likes being with me. Then a week later she ends it due to “lack of chemistry.” I always seem to get the girls initially interested, if not very interested and then they abruptly lose interest. When I ask them what happened they ALWAYS say they don’t kow what it is. That’s what’s frustrating.
J.A. says
Oh and Evan… I own that book and I even attended a workshop by Dr. Glover a few years ago. He’s great and I totally recommend him. It helped me get a great GF just a few months later (2.5 year relationship that i messed up… not from not being ‘masculine enough’ though)
Steve says
@JA #14
These dates who come on strong and then abruptly leave, may not have anything do with your “masculine energy”. May I ask why you think that may be the case?
I would keep asking the dates who choose not to stay, why they decided to move on. You will likely not get an answer. Giving feedback in these situations in uncomfortable and there is nothing in it for the person. However, you never know and you might get some useful information.
Your dates may have been honest. Sometimes I really will not know why I am not interested in seeing a woman further. I just don’t feel anything. In my opinion, that is normal for dating, people are trying each other out and part (most?) of that is finding people who aren’t a fit for you. I think this is even more of a normal, common experience of online dating. A woman can find you attractive, but unless magic comes out of her ass on the first date she will move on thinking something is missing unless they feel some a magical, hollywoodish connection. People just give each other enough of a chance these days.
I don’t work for Evan, I’ve never met him and I have never even been to California, but maybe a dating coach can help analyze what you are doing and tell you what you can do to get better results. Such a person has nothing to lose by being honest with you the way a friend does.
J.A. says
Steve- did you mean to say that people DON’T give each other enough of a chance these days? If so, you are totally correct.
Shouraku says
Evan’s article really hit a chord with me.
I have been very lucky in that I have only ever dated nice men. I have been with men who were: nice but had low self esteem, nice but needed a substitute mother to tend to their daily needs, nice but wanted a sugar mama, etc.
The man that I dated before my current boyfriend was (unbeknown to me) horribly sad and lonely before me met me. After we began dating, he was the happiest that he had ever been in his life according to him. My issue was not that I made him happy of course, but that he relied entirely on me for his happiness. I am a scientist by trade and have to travel for for business. I can’t effectively do my work when I have to answer bi-hourly phone calls from a man who is in a hopeless abyss of pain and suffering and needs frequent comforting every time I leave for a few days. It broke my heart to have to end our relationship because he was truly a very nice man, but frankly, I was unable to take on the responsibility of providing for his happiness as well as my own. I explicitly and directly explained this to him at least a dozen times for a week before we ended contact.
The reason I tell this story is because two years later I spoke to a friend of mine who also happened to know my ex. It turns out that my ex has completely contributed the end of our relationship to him being far to “nice”. Had be been more demanding, forceful, etc. Then he believes that we would still be together.
In other words, he had completely ignored the fact that his kindness had nothing at all to do with our breakup. He chose to overlook what is really preventing him from attracting women (dependence) and instead attributed his shortcomings to the much easier to accept “I am really nice, and women don’t like nice guys” mentality.
I realize that he is an extreme example. However, to this day, whenever I hear a guy telling me that “nice guys finish last” or that “women only like assholes” I always make it a point to relate this story to them. I personally don’t want to date a mean man (obviously), and have never once broken up with a person because he was “too nice”; there was always some other issue involved.
JB says
@Shouraku #18
You are right,people throw the word “nice” around so easily but it means so many different things to different people depending on the scenario.In your case synonymous with your guy being “needy” & “clingy”.Like a lot of things “nice” is an opinion.I personally can’t stand the adjective being used to describe a man for the very reason that it has become a negative feminine connotation for a man.
#17 Joe If YOU think Pink! is hot then she’s hot. She’s just not very feminine and that’s what I prefer. I wonder if she’s “nice”??..lol probably not if you’ve ever read the words to her song “Me And My Hand”.Great songwriter though !!
One more thing,it’s real easy to tell everyone and anyone that “they’re the catch”,they’re the commodity” but the truth is everyone isn’t and can’t be.
Because all men and women are not created physically,mentally,socially equal etc…
Just my opinion.
Stacy says
I think it’s all a lot easier. Dating is like on-campus recruiting: top 20% of candidates get 80% of all job offers. The OP is from the other 80% of the population…which ends up struggling for crumbles.
Steve says
@Stacy #20
Man, how can you stand to think like that? LOL! You just depressed me so much I think I will stay in bed all weekend :). It is not that bad!
Marc says
Sounds like Jay is going after the “Jdate Superstars” – women who have dozens, if not hundreds, of emails from men waiting for them in their inboxes. They can afford to dismiss men on a whim because they have so many options, They think Mr. Perfect is in there somewhere, so they don’t feel the need to wait it out with some nice guy who doesn’t get them super excited. I would suggest he contact women who are a few years older (late 30s maybe) who might be more willing to “settle” for a nice guy.
Steve says
@J.A. #17
Yes, you discovered my common source of typos. No matter how I proofread things sooner or later I always drop words out of a sentence. Yes, with online dating people don’t give each other enough of a chance. If they don’t feel an orgasm coming on during that first date they move on to someone else concluding that other person just didn’t have “chemistry” with them. Maybe it is like Evan likes to repeat that online daters have the “illusion of options”.
I’ve met people in my life who never registered with me as potential dates. Through associating with them over time I discovered their appeal and vice-versa.
I’ve been on those coffee dates where I just knew the woman and I would have liked each other, but I could tell that I failed to hit her “instant chemistry” and that she had already written me off. Not wanting to perform like a circus animal I enjoyed the remainder of the date and moved on.
Steve says
JB #19 wrote
“I personally can’t stand the adjective being used to describe a man for the very reason that it has become a negative feminine connotation for a man.”
Yes, the term “nice” has an instant negative meaning like “friend”. A “nice man” is essentially a eunuch to the woman using the term.
Calling a man nice is like a man saying a woman has a “nice personality” ( without mentioning her looks ) or calling the woman “matronly”.
Christie Hartman says
Here are a few quotes from previous posts:
“Evan i believe that men have all the power in dating and woman are the chasers.” (Sara)
“Dating is like on-campus recruiting: top 20% of candidates get 80% of all job offers.” (Stacy)
“It’s real easy to tell everyone and anyone that “they’re the catch”,they’re the commodity” but the truth is everyone isn’t and can’t be.” (JB)
I’m surprised at these glass-is-half-empty comments! And Sara, I completely disagree with you: men do not have all the power in dating. In fact, they often have less power than women do, and if you don’t believe me, you need to read my book 🙂 or at least send me an email…
Power, in dating just like anywhere, isn’t something people or society gives you. It’s something you create for yourself through your attitude and behaviors. If you believe dating sucks, then it will suck. Don’t shortchange yourselves this way!
And JA’s comment: “We met off jdate and after just 2 or 3 dates she was texting and calling me all throughout the day telling me that she misses me and that we have so much in common and she really likes being with me. Then a week later she ends it due to “lack of chemistry.”
Although that sort of behavior is more common in men, in either sex it’s not a good sign. People who come on that strong and then pull away suddenly have issues. The only thing I’d change is not continuing to see a woman who does this.
Mickey says
Christie Hartman said:
I’m surprised at these glass-is-half-empty comments! And Sara, I completely disagree with you: men do not have all the power in dating. In fact, they often have less power than women do, and if you don’t believe me, you need to read my book or at least send me an email…
That’s a rather interesting take, considering that many women are open and notorious with their dislike of men, a family court system that routinely destroys husbands and fathers, and a dating system that where most guys normally don’t have a prayer of succeeding, I think Ms. Hartman might want to re-assess who has the so-called power in any relationship.
When a guy has to jump through a zillion hoops just to get a date, let alone get into a meaningful relationship, well, that’s just too discouraging for words.
Bill says
“Dating is like on-campus recruiting: top 20% of candidates get 80% of all job offers.” (Stacy)
At the end of the day those bottom of the 80% still need jobs.
The problem I have seen is that women/men who are on the lower end will dismiss each other because there not that great. Although they forget they aren’t all that great either. It seems people just need to give each other a little more time and respect.
Bill says
Who ever is the better catch in the relationship always have the power in the relationship it does not matter if your a man or a women.
Ruby says
“”I tend to go out with girls who are ‘masculine’ like in their dating personalities (afraid of commitment, wants to date multiple men, A-type personality” and “…after just 2 or 3 dates she was texting and calling me all throughout the day…”
The OP is picking women who are wrong for him. It seems to me that he should be choosing women who are definitely seeking a serious relationship and are less driven, more low-key, more balanced, and probably more like him. Nobody should be calling/texting someone throughout the day after only 2 or 3 dates. That kind of obsessiveness should raise a red flag. There is nothing wrong with being a nice guy (as long as you’re not a wimp or a doormat). Women who are seeking serious partners want “nice”. But a woman who is very high-powered and Type A, commitment-phobic, or unstable might not be placing a high priority on that quality.
If you want to have “power” in dating, go after those who want you back, not the ones who don’t.
Selena says
I’m thinking Ruby #28 might be onto something here J.A.. The pattern you are seeing may not be because you are “too nice”, but the result of you choosing women who the same or similiar qualities. The male version of a woman who is attracted to “bad boys” and finds herself continually getting hurt.
Examine what it is that leads you to pursue particular women over others. Perhaps you will recognize a pattern in terms of similarity in personality. As Ruby suggested, you might have more success with the women who are more like you.
Denise says
Women don’t realize the power they have with men and they give up their power time and time again. If she understands and embraces her femininity and what that’s all about, and has strong boundaries, she absolutely holds power.
What I have learned for myself I feel like I do hold too much power in a potential relationship, he’s probably not the right man for me. I want a PARTNER. Someone who doesn’t intimidate me, and at the same time, someone I can’t dominate.
Stacy says
Bill #26
Correct, and the reason they dismiss each other is the failure to recognize themselves as the bottom 80%.
Karl R says
Jay said: (original post)
“I have this feeling, though, that I’m being too ‘nice’ and not having enough of a masculine energy to sustain attraction in these women.”
I doubt that you’re being too nice.
Twenty years ago I thought nice guys never got anywhere. As time passed I realized that confidence (whether real or perceived) was the main attribute that defines success in the early stages of dating.
A few tips:
Have a plan. Which sounds more confident:
“So, would you like to get together this weekend to do something?”
-or-
“I’m planning to go hear [live band] at [venue] Saturday evening. Would you be interested in joining me?”
It takes a little research to come up with a plan for a date. The results are worth the effort.
Have opinions. Be willing to share your opinion when it’s different than hers. You don’t want to belittle her opinion; you want to be able to state what you believe and why you believe it.
Have boundaries. Don’t do anything that you don’t want to do. I’ll try new things to find out whether I like them, but I won’t suffer through something I don’t like just because a woman wants me to.
An ex-girlfriend once mentioned that she occasionally liked to smoke pot, particularly before sex. Since I’m allergic to smoke, the following conversation ensued:
“Not while I’m in the house.”
“Are you telling me what I can or can’t do in my own house?”
“No. I’m telling you that if you light up, I’m out of your house until the smoke clears.”
Have options. I’m currently in a long-term serious relationship. But at the beginning of the relationship, I didn’t know whether it would work out. If it hadn’t, I knew who I would have asked out next. Based on my experiences I learned that I could repeatedly end up in long-term relationships with amazing women. Success was inevitable; I just had to keep trying long enough. That confidence permeated my behavior.
As a final thought, all of these recommendations (have a plan, have opinions, have boundaries, have options) can be done while still being a nice guy.
Steve says
Selena 29
I’m thinking Ruby #28 might be onto something here J.A.. The pattern you are seeing may not be because you are “too nice”, but the result of you choosing women who the same or similiar qualities.
That is a good point. I’ve noticed that many of the women on online dating sites are workaholics or who are very into traveling. It makes sense, if you are working all of the time or traveling a lot, it is harder to meet people. I’ve dated a few women from the former group. They talked about their boring jobs too much and were hard to get out of the office onto a date.
Steve says
@Stacy and Bill
“the bottom 80%”? Am I the only one who sees the irony in that term?
Selena says
LOL Steve. No you are not the only one. 😉
Michael17 says
Interesting blog! A couple of comments…
(1) I really like what Denise #3 and #12 has to say. I will add that boys are growing up really confused about their role when it comes to women. It’s gotten so bad that I am hoping that mothers *as well as* fathers step in for their son’s sake. A lot of boys are going out into the dating world handicapped. It’s like cats in the jungle declawed.
(2) I can understand each gender feeling that the other gender has the power. See we all like to date “slightly up”. Most of the winks that I get I’m not interested.
(3) I can see shorter guys feeling that they don’t have much power. Except for maybe 1 wink or email a *month*, pretty much the only way a woman will contact me is if I write her first. I have about a 30% response rate though, so my emails must be pretty good.
(4) Yeah, there are a lot of unrealistic expectations and porous boundaries of people online, at least when it comes to dating people in the 28–40 year-old age range. Second dates are hard to come by.
Michael17 says
As for the OP’s situation, women coming on strong and pulling away, what Christine Hartman said, but I will hazard a couple explanations:
(1) In the end, this is like musical chairs. It’s Reptilian instinct to want to have the power when it comes to the decision making. There is a tendency to want the other person to be into us and THEN we decide whether we are into them. I suspect that these women are doing that to the OP–trying to charm him by cheerleading his butt off so he’ll be into them (and they’ll get ti decide whether to keep seeing him), and then deciding from among a few suitors whom they want to keep seeing.
(2) There are a lot of perceived options in online dating. She went out with the OP, but she is getting emails from guys who have amazing profiles. So she is comparing the OP, something of a known quantity because she already went out with him, to all these mysterious men who just wrote her and who have these awesome profiles.
(3) I’m wondering how the OP acts towards the women when they tell him how into him he is. Is he indulging them by texting back and forth with them? Maybe he is like water to their thirst, quenching it too easy….
Steve says
Not directly related to dating, but some interesting related opinions about how boys got left behind in the cacophony of the vociferous radical feminists.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war-against-boys/4659/1/“>The Atlantic: “The War Against Boys”</a>
Steve says
@38 Hey Evan, I didn’t know your blog no longer took HTML tags. Could you edit them out of my comment number 38?
BTW, I use the same kind of blogging software as you do ( wordpress ). There is a plugin that will allow people to edit their comments. It could be nice.
Christie Hartman says
Yeah, as Michael17 and some others have suggested, I think a woman who texts and says she misses him that much after 2 or 3 dates is a HUGE red flag that the OP isn’t picking up on. Many guys would get really uncomfortable at that.
As far as the challenges of online dating go, I think the best way to arm yourself is the have realistic expectations (know that you’re going to deal with a good amount of weird people, rejection, unrealistic expectations for instant chemistry, etc) and to learn as quickly as possible how to read people. Studies have shown that people have more picky/stringent requirements when dating online than they do when dating “offline.” You kind of have to weed through the crap until you find the gem.
JB says
@Christie #25
“Power” isn’t something a physically short average looking man can “create” online unless he can create or convey income/wealth,which will give him status,and value.It has very little to do with just “attitude” & “behaviors”(although they do matter) and a lot more to do with physical attractiveness,height,job title,income,etc….. If you’re a short blue collar guy,your attitude and behavior is irrelevant because you’ll have no value
to women online.Now if you mean “create through your behavior” by getting a better education/job/more income than you’re right.By the way I never said “dating sucks” so I hope you weren’t referring to me.It’s just for guys like Jay,myself and the other half billion men around the world doing “online dating” it’s become so intertwined with “offline dating”(<—you know those rare people that date and have never had to use the internet to do it…lol) that it’s changed the who has more”power”in dating reality drastically.
You’re right that sort of “come on strong then pull away” behavior is more common in men but women do it too.I know because it happened to me. Commitmentphobia is an equal opportunity disease as written in the book
“He’s Scared,She’s Scared” by Steven Carter.
Michael says
Yet another reminder of how in-tune with reality Evan is. (Which is to say, very.)
I have frequently dated women who would intimidate other men (career drive/money/forceful personality/height), and as the old song goes, they were always women to me.
I think men often get lost in society – the word needs to be spread that you can be socially capable, open-minded AND very masculine.
Joe says
@ Bill (#27):
I’m pretty sure I read this (or something similar) in a comment in one of Evan’s previous blog entries: The person with the most power in a relationship is the one who cares the least about the relationship.
J.A. says
i have to agree with what jb has been saying. i dont mean to make it about height because there are already other posts and emails about that but if you’re 5’11″” or below then you’re at a huuuuge disadvantage in the dating world, especially the online dating world. women are easily as superficial as men, if not more.
christie- i def. should have taken that as a huge red flag but it’s not easy because it really feels good when somebody tells you they miss you, even after only a few dates…
michael- i actually am attracted to those types of women… seems the feeling isn’t mutual though.
karl- you are my fav poster on here
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach says
As a dating coach for women over 40, what I find interesting is that since the 1960’s women have been insisting that men become more sensitive. Now that men are shifting, opening up and becoming more sensitive, most women reject them. That’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation if I ever heard one!
To the sensitive, Renaissance men out there, keep this in mind, there is someone for everyone. You may have to modify your desire for a masculine woman for one who is more feminine or middle of the road.
For anyone single and dating, shifting your type, you will open up to much better partners. One thing you know for sure JA, is that your history with macho chicks shows you this is not the best type of woman for the long-term relationship you dream of.
Lazlo De Almasy says
going after who we are not attracted to isn’t going to help either
guitarguy32 says
A fact that seem’s to be lost on so many women and dating coaches. Women want their cake and eat it to. You will see plenty of guys be with and stay with a cute, nurturing lower income female. You will *not* see those relationships last the other way around. Men are valued for their utility.
Combine this with women under 40 now making more than men, and more often, not the same, but more, and with men making up the majority of suicides and the homeless, you have a recipe for disaster. The sad thing is, if the gender roles were traditional, the guy still ends up being the work mule and valued for his utility. The only difference now is that utility is done through the state. This, in a culture that says that everything I have said isn’t true despite evidence to the contrary.
Add in the fact that despite domestic violence and cheating being 50/50, women are initiating 70-90% of divorces, men are giving up, many simply by ending their own lives, in a culture that says they are disposable, unwanted, and undesired, especially in the long term.
J.A. says
sorry for the lack of caps…my phone is beong weird
J.A. says
ronnie- these chicks aren’t macho or butchy or anything like that, just a little masculine in (some) aspects of their personalities. or maybe i just bring that side outta them?
Christie Hartman says
JA: I think it’s great you asked for EMK’s opinion and have joined into the conversation. I’ve said many times that dating is an ongoing learning experience that will highlight any and all insecurities. Someone like you who seeks answers will succeed in the long run while people who complain probably will not.
JB (41): I agree with you that shorter men have a tougher time online (and you probably don’t want to get me started on the absurdities of online dating behaviors!). But so do a lot of other people who have traits that don’t fit into the American Fantasy. Part of the “power” and “good attitude” I was referring to is assessing the challenges for what they are and then finding a way around them. If I were a short man, for example, I would still try online (maximizing other traits through a good profile) but put more energy into meeting people offline. I know many short men who’ve done very well with this strategy.
Joe (43): I’ve heard that quote before. I’ve also heard Bill’s quote, which is based on the same idea. If you find yourself in one of these crappy situations, where you are the disempowered one, you still have all the power you need – to WALK AWAY and find someone who values you as much as you do them.
Selena says
@#47
Maybe their masculine energy is taking up so much space it’s crowding yours out? A that’s what they are perceiving as that something they can’t define. What draws you to this type of woman?
J.A. says
Selena- I guess I like girls like this because I appreciate ‘aggessiveness’ and am attracted to it in a girl. I don’t care too much for girls who just want to be housewives. (I realize those might be extreme examples)
Denise says
J.A., I am who used to be an aggressive woman you describe, so I think I can be able to provide a comment that that I hope might help. An immature woman is aggressive, controlling. Rather are you saying that you want an ASSERTIVE woman? An assertive woman is a mature woman, she knows what she wants and is not only NOT afraid to say it, but she will also go after what she wants. A woman who is confident and has an opinion, can go toe-to-toe with you, ‘debate’ with you, tease you a little. She does those things without hurting anyone or demasculizing the man. In between all that, she also can remain in her feminine energy, so you are excited about sitting across from a WOMAN, not a woman who acts like a man.
What do you think about that?
J.A. says
Denise,
That’s the type of woman I REALLY want.
jennyana says
Hi everyone,
I agree with Denisse’s comment. Maybe J.A. what you want is an assertive woman. A book I read not too long ago (Getting to I do, by Pat Allen) explains what are the differences between a woman who wants to have feminine energy in dating and one who wants masculine energy. I suggest you read it.
I’m also in my early 30’s and let me tell you, I used to do the pursuing before and it never worked (I would only get involved with lukewarm relationships). Now I use my feminine energy in dating.
Raymond says
When I was in my teens I went out of my way to be ‘nice’ to girls, I thought it was what was expected. There were always some girls that were attracted to me,but generally the ‘jerks’ in my group of friends always seemed to attract way more girls than me.
I later figured that ‘nice guys’ equated to a perception in women as weakness, timidity, and possibly low self esteem.
Going into my twenties I finally began noticing substantial interest from the opposite sex. My nice guy image had dulled a bit, but I had actually started to take an interest in what they were talking about, I was genuinely listening!
Selena says
I love a guy who genuinely listens. Very cool.
Karl R says
JB said: (#41)
“‘Power‘ isn’t something a physically short average looking man can ‘create’ online unless he can create or convey income/wealth,which will give him status,and value.”
J.A. said: (#44)
“i have to agree with what jb has been saying. […] if you’re 5’11”³” or below then you’re at a huuuuge disadvantage in the dating world, especially the online dating world.”
I don’t see this as having anything to do with the relative power of men and women in the dating world.
Dating difficulties (as a man) don’t occur because the woman has more power … even if it happens to be true (which I don’t believe). That would be comparable to me saying that I couldn’t win a competition because the judge/referee has more power than me. That’s not the person I’m competing against.
I’m dating women, not competing against them for dates. My competition is the other men who also want to date those women. The amount of power the woman has (relative to me) is irrelevant to whether I have an advantage over the other men.
You can still win when you have a disadvantage. It won’t happen as often, however.
Online dating favors people (men and women) who look good on paper. If you’re at a disadvantage, you either need to look better on paper, or you need to find an environment where you have the advantage.
For me, I can most easily create that advantage by going out dancing. It’s an environment where most men look awkward and feel insecure … and that’s the first impression they give. Their “on paper” qualifications don’t matter. On the other hand, I give the impression of being confident, skilled, outgoing and happy. Since the women enjoy dancing with me, they reinforce the impression that I’m desirable and trustworthy. In that environment, my main competitors are the other men who have mastered that environment. It’s a much smaller pool than the one that waits online.
Meet women in whatever environment you find yourself in. But allocate more of your efforts to the environments where you have the advantage.
Denise says
#56
Great advice!
Denise says
J.A. #52
Maybe that description will help then to see the differences between aggressive and assertive when interacting with a woman. With the experience you’ve gained, you probably can more easily see aggressiveness easier than other men. Pay attention and make a decision at that point if you see aggressiveness vs. assertiveness.
(From all the online profiles I’ve read, it sounds like most men want a woman like this 🙂
When dealing with assertive women, a man doees need to be confident and willing to stand up to her, not to be a yes man, not to have preferences, not to defer to her. Someone we can feel comfortable with that he can take care of us, he can take care of situations if need be. That doesn’t mean we don’t want a man to share his feelings with us or open us to us, but we don’t want him to ‘wear his heart on his sleeve either’.
Maybe KIND is a better description of men and women than NICE? I’m gathering that folks feel NICE sounds weak.
#53 Jennyana
Agreed and I had the experience. Like it or not, we have to work within the real world of how humans work. Nothing is going to change human instinctual behaviors anytime soon! I would also venture to say that you’re happier by leaning back and letting things come to you. It takes patience and attention to not being forward, but in the long run, the peace this brings and the ‘surprises’ that show are up are all worth it.
Christie Hartman says
Well said, Karl (56). (Although, I believe JB was alluding to being at a disadvantage compared to other men as well feeling a relative lack of power with women). Your advice to have men find an environment where they have the advantage (for you, dancing) is a great example of what I was trying to convey in an earlier post (25), where I spoke of creating power through your attitude and behaviors.
Emma says
I don’t think power should be a factor when it comes to a relationship. It just causes more games and more heartbreaks when two people committed to one another and compete for who has more.
Both men and women should just be open, tell their partner what they want, and if their preferences don’t match then they should not stay together.
If you’re honest and yourself, you will eventually find someone who’s looking for just that 🙂
JB says
@ Karl R #56
I totally agree with you Karl,I was a Rock Star in the 80’s and a drummer since age 6. I tear it up in a dancing environment but in my late 40’s now there’s very few “target rich” places to go dancing in my area anymore especially since the recession hit.Before when there were(1997-2006) I used to meet 80% of the women I dated just going out dancing and 20% on the internet but now it’s closer to 95% internet 5% “in the field”.Quite a drastic turn around I’ve been forced into due to circumstances beyond my control.It’s a little tough to convey how great of a dancer you are in a profile…lol and when women are perusing profiles online I’m sure they could care less. Don’t even get me started on the”power” I had when I was Rock Star” because unless you been “there” you’d never understand…LOL Let’s just say I had “it” and used it and abused it.What the heck,I was young.
I never said and I know we(men) aren’t competing AGAINST women we are competing against not only the other men online but every man these women see on soap opera’s,movies,music etc….because they literally think men like these are going to log on Match/POF etc…. and email them.And what’s worse is these women that are “5’s”(with their blurry headshot and 30 word profile) think they deserve them…lol
Steve says
J.A. 44
you’re 5’11”³” or below then you’re at a huuuuge disadvantage in the dating world
Come again? A man who is 5′ 11″ is short?
Christie Hartman says
@JA (62): Yeah, seems pretty unlikely. Men 5’11” or below constitute about 80% of US men.
Men fixate on height the way women fixate on age. Women may admire tall men the way men admire young women – but ultimately, unless you’re one of those people who live in Fantasy Land, what we admire and what we require aren’t the same thing.
Karl R says
JB said: (#61)
“we are competing against not only the other men online but every man these women see on soap opera’s,movies,music etc….because they literally think men like these are going to log on Match/POF etc…. and email them.”
Could you give some examples? Of all the women I have talked to (who have done online dating), not one has expressed that expectation, or anything approaching it.
The most unreasonable expectation a woman has expressed to me was an early-50s woman who abolutely refused to date any man who had a pot belly … even though she had a pot belly.
JB said: (#61)
“in my late 40”²s now there’s very few ‘target rich’ places to go dancing in my area anymore especially since the recession hit.”
I’d recommend most styles of swing dancing and country western to meet women around your age. The ballroom crowd tends to be much older.
Find a dance studio in your area that teaches those styles. They tend to be well informed about where the dancers congregate outside of class.
Selena says
“…what we admire and what we require aren’t the same thing.” I really like that Christie. And it seems to adroitly sum up the work Evan tries to do here. 🙂
hunter says
my applause to Ronnie Ann Ryan’s post……..you might want to rewrite that in capital letters……hhhmmmm..
JB says
@ Karl R #64
Of course when you ‘talk” to women they usually won’t come right out and say what may be their own delusional expectations.They’ll say the usual bulls**t of
“I want a guy who’s honest,caring with a good sense of humor who can make me laugh etc….”
I live in a suburb of Chicago where the women I can assure you will have completely different expectations that those in Boise,ID or Wisconsin. in other words they may not “express it” but their actions show it and I’ve seen and proved it with dozens of “recon” profiles over the years.Of course a man can’t have a pot belly even if she has a big fat butt.Ya know why?Because she knows she has more options online where we can’t see it of course.
J.A. says
jb- you’re totally right. what women say they want and what they actually go for/end up with are 2 totally different things in most cases…
Karl R says
JB said: (#67)
“Of course when you ‘talk” to women they usually won’t come right out and say what may be their own delusional expectations.”
If they don’t tell you their expectations, then how would you know them? Do you read their minds? Do you steal their diaries?
J.A. said: (#68)
“what women say they want and what they actually go for/end up with are 2 totally different things in most cases…”
This is a more reasonable assumption. If what you say you want, and what you actually go for are two totally different things, than it’s reasonable to assume that women will be equally guilty of that behavior.
JB said: (#67)
“I’ve seen and proved it with dozens of ‘recon’ profiles over the years.”
You’re making your assumptions about women wanting “every man these women see on soap opera’s,movies,music etc…” because the women are contacting hotties who may be out of their league?
In early 2009 I sent a message to a woman whose profile was on Match.com. Her last activity was “over three weeks” before, and since Match.com never deletes old profiles, that’s usually a good indicator that the person no longer uses Match.com. It’s quite possible that they may have deactivated their account years before.
I had a very low expectation that the woman would ever see my email. If she did, I thought I had an above-average chance of making a connection through our shared interest in dancing. It was a long-shot, but it only cost me a few minutes of time.
Three months ago I happened to meet the same woman through the dance community, and I eventually mentioned that I’d seen her profile on Match.com. As I suspected, she hadn’t been on Match.com since 2007.
People will gamble on long-shots provided it doesn’t cost them much to do so. That doesn’t mean they expect to succeed. It doesn’t mean that they’re focusing all of their efforts on long-shots.
JB said: (#67)
“Of course a man can’t have a pot belly even if she has a big fat butt.Ya know why?Because she knows she has more options online where we can’t see it of course.”
Do you have a recon profile that’s an older, overweight woman? Is she getting offers from men whom you consider to be better catches than you? (Or at least equal to you?)
When women contacted me, I didn’t consider them to be an “option” if they were clearly unsuitable (for example, living in another country). I’m fairly certain most women feel the same way.
Denise says
I find it funny how ‘all women are X’, but there’s no mention of how ‘all men are Y’. If we want to bash each sex, I’m sure the women here could come up with a multitude of things to say.
That’s not very productive though, it brings about negative energy and dwells on things we have no control over, which is suffering.
I think Karl is giving really good answers in regard to focusing on the things you can control and accept each person for who and what they are.
Men are the SAME way in regard to looks as how women are being slammed for doing. We all have preferences, there’s nothing wrong with that. For those women and men who are unreasonable in their expectations and don’t understand reality, I wish them luck and say ‘next’. For those men who pass by me on line (and there’s been plenty!), I say good luck to them too and maybe we’ll meet in real person some day :).
(There are inherent traits in men and women that are not going away any time soon, they’ve been there for millions of years. We can ‘suffer’ over why men/women can’t be more like the opposite sex, or we can understand the biological reasons each sex is as they are, accept it and have a couple of laughs about it. Learning about women would give men a leg up in regard to relating to them and create/maintain attraction. It’s not that difficult to learn either.)
Selena says
Re:# 69
And if this blog is any indication, many of the “options” women have are with men old enough to be their fathers. 🙂
Denise says
Haha, ouch Selena! Although for those women in their mid 40’s, it’s all relative 🙂
Kurt says
Hello Evan Katz,i have been following blogs for some time. First time , I am commenting.I have been noticing from so many blogs that men has all power in the online dating / relationships. But as more and more women are becoming independent and powerful in work and business environment, men are slipping that stigma.Ladies having more upper hand in dating / relationships ,some men are becoming passive on many dating web sites. This trend is rising and still men are noticing it.Instead of women chasing men. now it is all the way around.
Christie Hartman says
Thanks, Selena! (65)
I agree with Denise’s points (70). I’ve found, in my work, the there are ALWAYS certain men who complain about women and think women have all the power in dating, and there are women who complain about men and believe men have all the power. These are the ones who’ve been hit hardest by the trials of dating and relationships. It’s not that the other sex has the power, it’s that these people have forgotten their own power.
Selena says
When people speak of “power” in dating, I wonder if they are not acknowledging their own power of choice. We all choose who we intitially go out with; who makes the cut to a serious relationship; who we choose to stay with.
On this blog Evan has a clip “You aren’t attracting the wrong men, you are accepting the wrong men.” Very insightful. And could be applied to men in how they choose women as well.
Denise says
Christie #74
I believe it’s because they have poor boundaries. If they worked on their own boundary, it becomes easier to accept reality, stop the suffering, and keep the focus and positive (like Karl R. gets us to do).
I would also say it’s because of people’s beliefs. Beliefs are very powerful and reflect our world back to us. They can be changed though.
Would you agree with that?
Denise says
#75 Selena Right on! Exactly! Speaks directly to our boundaries and what we choose to accept or not accept in our lives. This is not only in romantic relationships, but friendships, work situations, etc.
Christie Hartman says
Denise (76): I would definitely agree with that, wholeheartedly. Beliefs are huge; if you believe women (or men) are jerks, then that’s what you will find. Bad experiences can create those beliefs, but the beliefs can create bad experiences too.
Carrie Knight says
Power and dating don’t belong in the same sentence. Power is the rate at which we work or convert energy. Dating shouldn’t take energy. It should be sweet, silly, and innocent. Screwing — that takes energy. Relationships, now there’s a damn energy vacuum.
However, if the question is ‘why do women have so much instantaneous power?’
Meaning, the power that seems to evaporate as the clock chimes twelve… it’s because you think we’re pretty, we smell good, and you have no idea what we are thinking… yet.
Dating, mating, and conjugating are the cornerstone of recreation and survival.
KISS
Keep it Simple, Dude.
If you’re thinking about asking her out before you get her name and number – your rushing.
If you’re thinking about where to take her before you ask her out – your rushing.
AND
IF for some magical fairytale reason you get a date – and if you’re on this date and you’re having a good time and you look over at her – quietly – and in the moment just say what you’re really thinking out loud but can’t muster the strength to say “you” “you look beautiful”…
BUT INSTEAD YOU
Start wondering how to say goodnight or if you should hug, or kiss, or WORST OPTION EVER — high five or bust it out…or if you even let it cross your mind while on this FIRST date that maybe next time you’re out together you could do something more exciting that what you doing on the date your actually on… and if you’re sitting there (staring at her) blah blah blahing in your head to yourself about what she does or doesn’t want to do or might like to do… instead of having an easy meaningless conversation along the lines of what’s your favorite season and do you like windy Sunday mornings or who is your favorite movie star or American President or show on Adult Swim… then…
YOU JUST BLEW IT
Girls just wanna have fun — traditionally, if you make us feel like we have somehow caused you any irritation, hesitation, or frustration — or nervousness — simply because we AGREED to go out with you…we’ll probably avoid you like the swine flu for as long as we possibly can while pretending there is nothing awkward about the fact that we are avoiding you…
So dude — chill out… you will be shorter than some women. Yes. The average woman is 5’8”… Some women will think this is a turn on. Seriously — women are weird. What keeps a woman around has much more to do with how you make her feel about herself. I for one — refuse to have a man in my life with prettier nails than mine OR better hair. That’s just the way it is. I can think of a few dudes that probably think I didn’t return their call because they were too odd, too short, worked too much, worked out too little, said too much, said too little, didn’t have enough education, had two children… blah blah blah.
Chances are that’s not it. I’ve done the same thing. I used to KNOW (not think — know) that every time it didn’t work out with a dude it was because I was too chunky. Honestly those men probably did not even considering my weight an issue… but probably really considered my insecurity about my weight an issue.
I BET YOU $100
These “aggressive, flighty, type A’s” that you’re describing (in a somewhat insulting tone btw — you might want to cushion that a little — I don’t many women describe you as “short”) — have the following conversation about you with their friends:
Friend: You still going out with Jay?
Miss A: No, not any more?
Friend: Why not? What happened?
Miss A: Nothing happened, I just wasn’t feeling it.
Friend: Why not? Was he weird?
Miss A: No. He’s a really nice guy. We just didn’t have much to talk about. We didn’t have fun.
Friend: Oh, I thought he was taking you out a lot…
Miss A: He was but he couldn’t relax.
PROMISE…
Dating is not supposed to be a pain in the ass. That’s what marriage is for — I’m kidding… but isn’t the purpose of courtship to learn how to play and dote and be sweet and do all the stupid little cute things that couples do together that lead into a fun and rewarding relationship so that for whatever reason later on we can fool ourselves into believing that kids are a good idea?
KIDDING… of course they’re a great idea…
Just saying — it has nothing to do with the fact that your short, or a janitor, or a liar — sorry I mean a lawyer or anything else…
I would skip hot rocks on a lake of fire with a dude if I knew I would have a good time doing it…
IT IS WHAT IS…
Only reason to date is to go out and have a good time. If you want to control how someone responds to you — your shit out of luck. The only person you have power over is yourself…
SS says
Carrie, do you mean that the average MAN is 5’8″? Because the average American woman is actually about 5’4″, and the average American man is about 5’9 1/2″.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/healthcare/a/tallbutfat.htm
The report, Mean Body Weight, Height, and Body Mass Index (BMI) 1960-2002: United States, shows that the average height of a man aged 20-74 years increased from just over 5’8″ in 1960 to 5’9 ½” in 2002, while the average height of a woman the same age increased from slightly over 5’3″ 1960 to 5’4″ in 2002.
The funny thing to me about the whole height issue in dating, I’ve found, is that most people clearly have no idea of what the American average is… and the men that many women consider to be short really are “average height,” if not taller. My husband is 5’10 1/2″, and he was frequently put in the short category. Maybe if he was trying to play basketball, sure, but in reality, he’s an inch taller than the average American man.
(Not that it mattered to me, but for women who turned him and other men of similar height down because they weren’t 6′, I wonder if they knew how few men are actually taller than 6′ in this country.)
In general, most men are going to be taller than most women.
Mickey says
@Ronnie Ann Ryan:
You’ve got to be kidding!!!
You said: “There’s someone for everyone.” I have just one question: WHAT PLANET IS THAT??? It sure as hell AIN”T this one!!!
How much money have you made robbing people with that phony BS???
judy says
I agree with Evan. If a man or woman can’t be bothered, stuff them and next!
Aaron says
I am going to be honest and perhaps a bit of a prick (but honest) and say that the majority of men and women on this forum and in the world are idiots. We must live in a fucked up world indeed, if the only way to impress a lady is to act like a prick or act like someone you’re not. I am one of the unlucky ones who suffer from this so called nice syndrome, but I was led to believe, that in order to succeed in relationships and indeed life in general, is to be YOURSELF. I am slim, fairly good looking have a stable job and only 155cm tall. Yet for some reason, I cannot get a date, which is quite frustrating. I am going assume that the reason that I can’t attract women is because I am small. I have read lots of online dating profiles as well as many discussions about this topic, and the one thing that many women have in common, is that they would never date men who are short because they find it unattractive. I keep hearing women bitching on TV and in online forums, how that there is no decent men out there. But that is incorrect, we are there, but the problem is, they are setting the bar way to high. They all seem to have an inflated view of themselves, and that they deserve nothing but perfection in a partner. Like I said, I have read many profiles and the standards are by far ridiculous. Frankly I am surprised that women have not included ‘must shit roses’ to the list of desirable qualities. Believe it or not, I am actually a very nice person, who has a lot of positive energy, but the way the dating world is set up these days, as well as women’s attitudes, just makes my blood boil. Evan, I do not agree with anything you have said, except this; if women can’t see what a catch I am, If they can’t see what I have too offer as a potential life partner, because of their prejudices, or ludicrous standards, well fuck them. They deserve to be alone, they deserve to be with the arseholes that they seem to attract.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry you don’t agree, Aaron, but maybe you’d have more success with the opposite sex if you listened to what others had to say. Your problem isn’t your height. It’s your lack of confidence, your negativity, and your destructive worldview. A woman’s bar isn’t too high if she doesn’t want to date you; there are lots of decent looking stable men who ALSO have confidence, self-awareness, and no victim complex.
Aaron says
Hey Evan. I think that you have the wrong idea about me. Firstly, I am very frustrating with the whole dating scene and what I said, I just had to get of my chest. Secondly, (believe it or not) I have a lot of respect and confidence towards women and people in general. I’ve tried dating sites and I socialise quite a bit. I have on many occasions approached women to conversed with and to ask them out on a date. But they all turned me down. I am an intelligent, confident, kind-hearted, down to earth bloke and yet, women won’t give me the time of day. And yet, women our complaining that they can’t seem to find any decent guys. I don’t expect for every woman that I meet should want to go out with me or fall madly in love with me, but it would be nice if some of them would give me a chance. All I was trying to say in my last post, is that maybe, just maybe, their standards are too high. I really do believe that people in general, need to have a hard look at themselves and realise that they are not perfect and that they should not expect their potential partners to be perfect either.
Evan Marc Katz says
We agree that people need to look in the mirror. The difference is that I tell that to both genders. You’re saying it to women but not doing it yourself.
Aaron says
I am glad we both agree that people need to look themselves in the mirror. I am talking about my own personal experiences, which is why I say that women should wake up to themselves. I have no doubt that men are just as shallow as women are. You were right in your previous posts, in that once upon a time I used to have confidence, and self image issues. But I looked myself in the mirror along time ago and realised my true potential and self worth. I know that I am not perfect, which is why I focus on someone’s good qualities rather than superficial appearances. I just wish everyone else did this as well. And I know that I am not special, I know that there are many men and women out there who are in the same situation as me and are finding it difficult and frustrating trying to find a partner. My first post was more of a rant because I was angry, and I apologise for that. But the message that I hope to get across to people reading this, is that it is ok to have standards. If you know what you want, there go out and get what you want. But I think it is important for men and women to be realistic and not set the bar too high, otherwise they might miss out on meeting someone truly remarkable.
LW says
I think it’s generally true that women prefer guys to be confident, assertive and to exude a more masculine energy. However, there are a minority of women who prefer more submissive guys and men who prefer more dominant women (both in terms of overall personality and also sexually).
The realist says
The elephant in the room is female hypergamy. The vast majority of women pursue the top 20% of high status men. These “alpha males” are the only men who win in the online dating world while women erroneously believe that ALL men must be similarly winning when that simply isn’t true.
Think of the story of Cinderella. Every woman at that ball was competing for the attention of one man – the prince. The prince could only choose one woman which meant that the other women would then probably settle for the man that escorted them to the ball. Online dating is the same, except that women are so entitled today that even women past their prime turn a cold shoulder to average guys.
Contrary to the nonsense you hear, most men aren’t pursuing 8s and 9s, but just ordinary agreeable women. Most men don’t expect women to buy them a house, pay of their credit card and student debts etc… Men love idealistically while women love opportunistically.
Just remember Cinderella, the vast majority of women can relate to Cinderella whereas hardly any men can relate to the high status prince. Hypergamy is why you lose at online dating.