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I just found your website and wish I’d read it YEARS ago… Really appreciate your insight and honesty. And everything you say makes sense! My question is this: I take on board all of your “he’s just not that into you”reasoning, and also your comments on how to tell if a man is truly interested (calling, making plans, etc.) My problem, historically, is that if I really genuinely like a guy (which sadly does not happen that often,) I expect these things to happen right away. I get frustrated if I feel he’s not doing those things, and rather than make what is usually the classic girl mistake of calling/texting him all the time, I decide I’m about to get hurt and “freeze” him out.
I did this recently with a guy I was really smitten with. We’d only known each other 3 weeks, kissed once, had 2 “dates” alone… But, because I didn’t hear from him for 5 days, I went super cool on him, defriended him from Facebook, etc…
A few weeks on now, the red mist has cleared. I think I wanted too much too soon and just wish I’d sat back, played it cool, and followed your advice on mirroring! He still sends me occasional friendly texts – which so far I answered but then cut short before they get into “conversation.” Can I turn this around and “start again” if the opportunity (or another text) materializes? At what point do the rules of “He’s Just Not That Into You” kick in?
With thanks, from girl with a bruised heart,
Terri
Thanks for the kind words, Terri. Sorry to see you have regrets, but, as I just read on a friend’s Facebook page the other day, “If you don’t have regrets, you haven’t lived your life to the fullest.” I’m not sure I agree (frankly, I think if you HAVE regrets, you haven’t lived life to the fullest,) but that’s not really the point.
What did you actually GAIN by cutting him off entirely?
The point is that making mistakes is part of living and no one lives an error-free existence.
And, make no mistake about it: you botched this one by pulling the overly emotional girl act.
What for? Think about it for a second: what did you actually GAIN by cutting him off entirely?
That’s right. Nothing. Your “defriending” was pure ego.
I get it; I just “defriended” someone who was rude to me at my high school reunion last month. It was my way of saying, “fuck you” to her. The difference is that she’ll never notice, whereas the man you were seeing will definitely pay attention.
Yet somehow, Terri, your undaunted guy continues to send you friendly texts. And somehow, despite your previous experience of being cold to an interested guy, you continue to be cold to him — cutting short the texts before they turn into conversation.
WHY?
This guy likes you and you’re doing everything in your power to stop him. I suppose you can mount an argument that playing aloof is keeping him interested, but you’re missing the most important part of mirroring, as outlined in Why He Disappeared.
You’re supposed to do what he does!
So if he takes 5 days to call you back, you can get back to him in 5 days.
And if he says I love you first, you say I love you back.
And if he writes you a long, warm text message, you respond to him in kind.
That way, you’re never pushing him away with neediness, and always keeping the door open for possibility.
(My original piece on mirroring is here — and links to a half dozen blog posts about non-committal guys, so have yourself a field day.)
Have the confidence and patience to let things evolve at an organic pace.
Really, Terri, this drama is entirely of your own making. Because if you simply sat back and waited for him to reveal himself in his actions, guess what? He would have called you after 5 days, you would have had an amazing 3rd date, and, chances are, at this point, you’d already be boyfriend/girlfriend.
More importantly, if he did NOT step up to the plate to make the effort necessary to be your boyfriend — if he did NOT call more than once a week for 2 months — if he did NOT talk about exclusivity or a future — if he did not make you feel that your relationship was escalating, voila, you have your answer. No need to throw a fit, or bitch him out, or “unfriend” him on Facebook.
When a guy isn’t doing what you want after a reasonable amount of time — 2-3 months at the longest — the best thing to do — the ONLY thing to do — is wish him well and find another guy. It’s really quite simple.
Your big takeaway from this post should be to have the confidence and patience to let things evolve at an organic pace. You may be used to diving into relationships and having instant passion, chemistry and commitment. I also can make the safe prediction than none of those relationships have lasted. So please, give a guy a break for not knowing if you’re his girlfriend (much less wife) after a few weeks.
I have one client now who has met a guy twice and she’s very frustrated that he’s not yet her “boyfriend”. I’ve got another who has had 4 dates in 3 weeks and feels the same way. “He should be more excited about me! He should be telling me he loves me!”
No, he shouldn’t. Every time a guy has ever told you he loves you in 3 weeks, the relationship’s burned out. Maybe this time has a better chance of being for real, because you’ve both taken the time to evaluate each other instead of committing first and figuring out your compatibility later.
This is the central message of Why He Disappeared and if this blog post hit home for you, I encourage you to check it out here.
Jake and I had sex on the first date and our exclusivity convo on the second date – though to be fair that was only because he was moving to another city 5 days after I met him! We squeezed 3 dates into those 5 days and our 4th date was me spending the weekend at his house. So on the one hand that seems fast.
I will say that though we count the day we had our first date as our anniversary (since it’s the first day we met), we did not have the “boyfriend/girlfriend” talk for at least 3 months (the exclusivity conversation was just so we could feel confident having sex without condoms). I accidentally told him I was falling in love with him after 5 months, but I never said it again until he told me he loved me (after 7 months or so, I think).
He told me after ten months that he almost proposed to me right around the time that he told me he loved me – we were in Vegas and could have done it that night! As it is I’m glad he waited because now we have been together over 4 years and are sure, though we set the date for our 6-year anniversary.
Woow
I had the reverse scenario happen to me. I went on ONE date with a guy. I guess he thought that made a relationship and when I balked and said I wanted to take it slow and really get to know each other before committing – which was the absolute truth – he did a complete 180. He basically went from “I can’t wait to see you again.” to turning totally cold overnight. Pulling back, limited conversation, and completely unwilling to make any sort of compromise to try and move things forward. I just saw him as a complete jerk who had no idea of how the dating process worked and told him so. He was probably a decent enough guy, but I never got the chance to find out cause of the way he behaved.
I’m with Selena on this one. I agree with most everything you said, Evan – many women do want and expect too much too soon (I call this “planning your wedding on the first date!”). Slow down and consider his needs too! But this dude waited 5 days to call, which is beyond the zone of genuine interest. My money says he’s not that interested or serious – not worthy of her anger, but not worthy of her effort either! It couldn’t hurt for her to see what happens with him, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in a guy who waits that long to call and then texts her “occasionally.” Why doesn’t he just pick up the freakin’ phone and ask her out on a date?
I’m so glad you posted this question because the same thing is happening to me right now. I still don’t know if I messed up or if he really was “just not that into me”. I met this guy at work. At first we were only good friends, talking every now and then. About 2 months ago we started talking more (everyday at work), flirting, he asked about my hobbies, what I did on the weekend, he waited for me when it was time to leave, asked for my phone number, hinted that we should go out after I came from vacation, etc. Well, one thing led to another and we kissed (although not on an official date). After than happened, some days he seemed to avoid me, other days he talked, but not like before. The flirting stopped completely. Now he never waits for me when I leave work, never calls or texts me during the weekends (although he rarely did it before; he never called me on the weekend, just texted once in a while), has never asked me to go out with thim, never says good-bye when he leaves, etc. I got so confused and hurt that in one small conversation I told him that perhaps we have gotten confused and maybe we should be friends. We’ve started talking a little bit more now at work, but not like before.
Evan, if you’re reading this, I want to thank you for all of your advice. I’ve been reading your blog and realized a lot of mistakes I’ve made in my previous relationships. I’m going to buy the book. 🙂 I usually follow the mirroring technique, but I guess I need some more information.
In my experience, only wanting contact after 5 days or more is the hallmark of someone who wants a casual relationship and is also quite possibly dating another/others. Which is fine if you want to take a “wait and see” approach and don’t mind being in competition. Men who are really interested tend to keep in contact every day or two because they don’t want you to lose interest in THEM.
I don’t think Terri’s situation was snit-worthy, but I’m not so sure she was wrong about this guy either. All he’s done since is send some occasional friendly texts, not call her and ask to spend time with him. Three-four weeks is long enough to decide whether you want to date someone who calls every 5 days or so, or if you’d rather date someone a bit more attentive. Since Terri was/is smitten with this fellow, I predict she’d find “waiting” for him to call and 5 day mirroring frustrating.
Exactly! She wasn’t really wrong about him. Men who contact you every week or so are not interested in building any intimacy with you. And friendly texts mean nothing if they aren’t invitations to hang out in person. This guy liked her a little but didn’t like her enough to really pursue her. He’s probably pursuing someone else that he’s unsure about so he texts her to see if she’s still available just in case it doesn’t work out with the other girl. In my opinion, she was absolutely right for cutting him off. Why waste your time? He’s showing signs of a guy who will be in and out of your life.
I think mirroring is a golden plan and it has worked well for me on two fronts. First, it keeps my behavior in check. It’s an easy guideline to follow when your heart is screaming at you to call him or email him or whatever. If he hasn’t called you, you don’t call him. When he calls, you talk to him. Pretty simple in theory. Secondly, it keeps my emotions in check. In the time between dates and phone calls, I have time to think about whether or not this person is the right person for me. That space apart and distance from the other person gives me clarity and perspective.
Mirroring is not an easy behavior to master. It’s easy in theory but hard in practice. I was bummed out when the guy I was seeing didn’t call, and then my sadness would turn to anger, and then ambivalence (“If he calls, that’s cool. If not, no big deal.”) By the time he called, I was casual and friendly and not needy or desperate. I think that mirroring has a lot of potential.
A word of caution though. If a man sets a pattern of not calling, not scheduling dates, and not progressing towards a relationship with you after several months, you may want to re-assess if this is the right person for you. I’ve learned that I can only mirror for so long before I get really resentful, disinterested, and annoyed with the person. That’s the point where I use the advice Evan had in a previous post and approach the guy that I’ve been “seeing:”
“I really, really care about you and have very much enjoyed our time together. But as amazing as I think you are, I’m not really getting my needs met here. I don’t want a weekend fuck-buddy. I want a boyfriend. And it’s become increasingly clear to me that it’s not going to be you. That’s okay. I’m not hurt or offended, but I need to find someone who wants a relationship. Good luck in your search.”
And then WALK.
If he follows, he’s your boyfriend.”
Let me tell you, I just did this and walked, and the guy didn’t follow. But you know, it was better than wasting any more time guessing where I stood with the guy!
@Selena, #4 – I get the impression that if Terri were more receptive to the casual friendly communications the guy is currently initiating, he’d definitely step it up, and for some reason (due to her own feelings, that don’t have anything to do with this particular guy) she keeps sqashing the moment before it can get that far. She needs to stop getting her own way!
Though I do agree with you that guys who are into you initiate communication way more than every 5 days. I think Jake called me every night for the first 3 months when we were in different cities (let’s say there were 5 nights total that we didn’t talk on the phone) and that doesn’t count emails or text messages, which were also daily events.
I think in retrospect the fact that we were so far apart and spent so much time talking in the beginning kept us from getting too clouded by the physical stuff. By the time he moved back to my town, we knew that we were compatible on all the important stuff. But there’s no real way to replicate that situation (since he was leaving for 3 months for an internship and then returning, there was an expiration date on the long-distance thing, though we later did it again for another 9 months when he graduated and left town for real). Timing is everything, I guess…
Hello,
I hope someone is still actively reading these and responding. I’m 27 and dating an older guy for the first time that’s been in a failed marriage, no kids, and has a great career. We’ve been on 2 dates over the course of 3 days. I’m so used to dating younger guys than myself and rushing into a relationship. I’m trying to do things differently especially since he wants to take it slow. I’m just not at all sure what that entails.
Excellent letter, excellent advice. Terri, as a woman, I can tell you that I can fully relate to what you describe…and so can almost every woman I know. What I’d like to know is why is that feeling of discomfort so powerful? Especially if you like the guy? I think relationships evolve “organically” in a different way today, 2010, from how they used to — no doubt because of cell phones, the internet, texting, webcam, Skype, IM…all of it. It’s easy to imagine now that everything should happen instantly, or at least quickly; if not, something must be up, something must be wrong. And then, the urgency to flee. Dump or be dumped. I gotta say, I’m finding great relief in Evan’s advice of “having the confidence and patience to let things evolve,” because it feels empowering to me, instead of wimpy — which is how I feel when I’m mirroring, because it feels so passive, so not pro-active, which I mistakenly interpret as weakness and extreme vulnerability. But it takes practice to break that habit, so don’t punish yourself when you slip, just get more determined to change your thinking about it. For me, it’s been a suprisingly great feeling to realize I can choose to not react & sit with the discomfort when I get that terrible (so terrible) feeling of fear — fear I’m about to be dumped, fear I’m being used, fear I’m being a doormat, fear of being taken for granted, etc etc. But it’s not real, it’s just my monkey-mind messing with me. You’ll get there. Best of luck.
A woman’s intuition is one of the most powerful capabilities that we possess. It feels uncomfortable because something is in fact wrong about a man who contacts you every week or two.
Contrary to what these crappy relationship articles want us to believe, women are not wrong about feeling uncomfortable about a man who contacts us infrequently. We all know that deep down inside, a man who is REALLY interested will contact us regularly. Maybe not everyday, but he wouldn’t let more than 2 or 3 days go by without saying something. Men are no where near as in touch with their feelings as we are so it makes sense that we can sense changes in them before they can even sense it in themselves. It’s not a weakness or vulnerability, it is a strength. You are magical and powerful. Women are gifted beings who can pick up on subtle changes in emotions and can tell when something is off or wrong.
One thing I’ve learned is that you can never make a mistake with a man who wants you. I did so many things that society would label as “wrong” when I first started dating my now boyfriend. I didn’t pretend to play it cool, I set boundaries. I told him that I only wanted to date him exclusively, however, if he ever were to slow things down too much that I would immediately start dating other men. But he didn’t ghost me at all! In fact, he was always available and in contact regularly. And guess what? I didn’t scare him away when I didn’t follow his lead. He stayed around and followed mine because he was genuinely and fully interested in me. Men who disappear would have done so regardless if you did everything right or not. Trust me, I’ve mirrored guys before just for them to remain barely interested for months and months.
Women aren’t idiots, we know when something is not right. Believe in yourself!
Fully absolutely agreed. I met a man on Tinder and we agreed to meet as fuck buddies, but there was little sex (and geared for my pleasure, which it worked) and over 7 hours of talking and hugging and cuddling.
I was blown away, as I am used to sex dates that are just that, and the connection I felt to him was/is simply impressive. So the next day, at night, I texted him. We agreed to meet 3 days later. This time I specified no sex, because I wanted to get to know him more. He agreed. 2 days later was our 3rd date. Again no sex, and we brought up (I brought up) the exclusivity talk. We agreed not to fuck/date others and take time to see if we would fit in a relationship. We will make the call within 1 or 2 months from meeting. I am CONSTANTLY ignoring this particular advice from Evan (mirroring), but when a guy is into you, he is INTO you, and you’d have to be purely irrational/out there to say something that will “scare him away”. I must admit, circumstances like these are RARE, and of course this has advanced far quickly. But it shouldn’t be more than 2 or 3 days before a guy contacts you. Otherwise, clearly you are not in his mind enough!
Excellent comments. In my case, I got the vibe that he wasn’t interested when after the first kiss he never mentioned to see me on the weekends. I know we work at the same place, but I have a feeling that if he had been interested he would have made plans to see each other outside work. I’m not one to rush things, but we’ve known each other for a few months, so I thought that we were going at the right pace.
I admit that I still feel a little sad. I really like him and think he’s a great guy. My greatest fear was that I had driven him away, but perhaps that’s not the case. Any thoughts or comments?
Re: #7
Honey,
You could be right the guy would step-it-up if she wasn’t squashing the communication, but honestly it sounds to me more like he is just trying to keep her in his “stable” by texting her occasionally. They’ve already dated, kissed – why wouldn’t he make more of an effort to see her if he was really interested?
I believe relationships set their own pace for the most part. Some do seem to move more quickly than others and really, it’s only the outcome that determines whether the pace was “too fast” or not. I’ve had relationships where we started spending every spare minute together from the start that became partnerships that lasted for years. But every relationship I’ve had where the guy only wanted to see me once a week or so, proved to be casual and ended within 3 months. Without Exception.
So my views are based on my own experience, not necessarily transferable to anyone else’s situation.
@ Selena, you might be right. The reason we don’t know, however, is because Terri doesn’t mirror *consistently*. At this point she’s doing the opposite of mirroring, which is shutting down every time he expresses more than casual interest. Her own reactions are getting in the way of her ability to really read this guy.
Evan, I love you to death, but shame on you! Our OP may not be egotistical; I have done exactly what she does, and while I’m not saying it’s right, it is more than likely a defense mechanism. Of course I know that we have to accept we’ll get hurt, let our guard down, and not condemn all guys. In my head I know that and accept it to be true. But sometimes that impulse to go into self-protection mode is not easily overcome. Obviously I have no knowledge of our poster’s history, but as someone who was abandoned in childhood by a parent, that instinct is incredibly strong. For some people, the pain of loneliness is not even as painful as rejection. But I digress. The main point is, give the OP the benefit of a doubt. Just like those of us who “freeze out” guys should be giving them the benefit of a doubt.
starthrower68 THANK YOU!!! Thank you for your post. I, too, am so tired of the belittlement of women when they go into “protection mode.” Like you, I was abandon by my parents and to trust is difficult. I am working on it and am getting better, but the minute I start to smell trouble and see the red flags, I bolt. I hope to get better and mirror more than react; however, I so appreciate you telling Evan “shame on you!” I simply cannot continue to listen to his complete and utter disregard for someone’s deep rooted fears.
K-MAC – My allegiance is only to what works. Being fearful and protective is an ineffective way to connect with men. I don’t care if you were abandoned by your parents; if I’m a good guy and you’re freaking out on me, I’m not going to stick around to find out what happens next. Keep being fearful and you’ll keep seeing men flee – and you’ll think it’s because men are “abandoners”. Not true. We just want to be with confident women.
You are wrong about this! When I first started dating my now boyfriend, after the 3rd date, I expressed to him my fears and insecurities. And yes, I freaked out on him. But he understood why I was afraid, since he himself knows what it’s like to be hurt and vulnerable. So he was very patient with me and we continued to see each other and we are together now. Not all men freak out at the sight of a woman who is brave enough to show him her vulnerabilities. This is an important part of bonding. Even the most confident woman on the planet has a few insecurities or two. This idea that people need to be perfect, confident, and in control at all times is a total fallacy and we need to start understanding that. Maybe we’d all be more successful in love if we can accept that.
@ Honey
Next time he texts she could get flirty and type “Call Me” and see what happens.
The thing about mirroring is one has a choice about it. If a guy calls, talk to him. If he he takes 5 days to call one can still talk to him. The choice is does one want to wait another 5 days for him to call, or to call him? (Which would be consistent.)
Men set the pace for dating, but it’s up to the woman to decide if that pace is comfortable for her. I like the phrase: ” Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option.”
Re-reading the letter I noticed she wrote they had two “dates”. Why the quotes? Maybe this guy didn’t know they were dating, and hence didn’t realize he made a faux pax by waiting 5 days to call. Hmm.
Patience is a virtue. Not TOO 😉 much patience, but it’s a virtue. I wonder if the woman who wrote to Evan HAS had a really great ‘flow’ with a man before? When you have had it, and you feel the energy on your side, you can become quickly impatient when someone takes the slow approach.
This is why I suggest having a Full Cup and a Full Plate when not in a relationship. It’s prime time to get busy doing, seeing, experiencing life. This way – you aren’t entirely focused on the length of time in between calls. When the relationship does grow, then you can keep those interests . . . but in the interest of the relationship’s growth – we have less time to spend on those passions we develop during our singlehood.
Another though, and it’s in agreement with a previous poster: The woman who wrote in is ‘hurt’. And she’s probably frustrated because now she IS doing the right thing to ‘enchant’ and it’s not taking. When we are hurt and not emotionally READY to withstand a lot of little hurts (which at times dating can be) it’s better to take a break. I’m serious. Maybe she should take a month or two in order to just be with herself,and focus on doing something she feels passionate about or learning something new. It’s a confidence booster.
Then when back in the dating pool – it’s a lot easier to say . . . “Oh – never called. Oh well – going to take a golf lesson. ” BTW – The Golf Driving Range mid-week after work is a great place to meet single men. The husbands/dads are at home or running the kids to soccer – so in my area (Central NJ) it’s a great singles place. Triplejoy/fun – you get to be active doing something fun/learning something new, you keep your mind off your ‘air’, and you get a chance to meet a ‘spare’. Give it a try!
OK, who is going to give Adrienne’s suggestion a try and report back on meeting men at the Golf Driving Range? Great idea!
It never is too late, that’s what I say. He is still pursuing a relationship of some kind with you. Open the door and invite him in! Sheesh. When you feel safe, you can light heartedly explain your, “problem.”
I’ve found men to be more in the mode of, “serial daters,” where they want to merge at the hip right away, actually. It confuses me as I *know* I don’t know them at all. Not enough to text, phone, facebook and merge digital lives from the first date. It is like instamarriage. Actually, the man who is divorced is more likely to be checking in often, it seems. Unfortunately, when I don’t mirror the obsessive behavior, they wander off…
Good luck!
moon
I can’t believe how timely this letter is- I too ‘freeze’ people out with regrets later…stupid thing I’ll admit to. There was this guy I e-mailed- he e-mailed back, very friendly…this was going back and forth with him asking me a billion questions about myself and never asking for a phone number, meetup, etc. I just stopped replying to his e-mails because I thought that meant he wasn’t interested. Who knows? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. I won’t know now…
Oh sorry…for the double post EMK, just saw star’s post now-
Star-
Why do you say ‘shame on you’ to EMK? I’ve done the same thing- and I admit completely it was related to ego. Anytime we react out of fear/anger, that’s an ‘ego-based’ reaction. It doesn’t make it wrong/bad, it just it. You’ve just got to find out if that reaction is tripping you up.
For me, I know it def is…I just don’t know how to stop! LOL
I think what she (Star) is trying to say is that Evan (and many people) are WAY TOO HARD on women when they “freeze” people out. I have done it and regret it, but whenever I have come to terms with my action my gut was often spot on. I think Evan could help women more by encouraging in some areas. I understand his hard nosed tactics but since we are wired differently, he could soften his edges, explain why “EMO” reactions lead to regret and sadness later. Most people are logical and will understand this POV. And to be fair, I don’t think it is ego as must as fear of having the rug pulled out from under you. Once again, I am working on getting better at this but we (men and women) are dealing with years of hurt and betrayal in childhood and therapy doesn’t truly help all of the time. It takes dating and meeting new friends and people to show you where you still need to focus your attentions and grow in a more positive way.
Sayanta,
I’m going to get all Karl here on you (friendly debate, no hostility intended):
You said “It doesn’t make it wrong/bad, it just is”; I didn’t say that it was wrong or bad, merely that it wasn’t right, meaning it is self-defeating behavior, which I readily admit.
It also appears we may be defining “ego” two different ways within the context of this discussion. I’m taking your meaning as in “id, ego, and superego”. I was taking Evan’s meaning as in the OP was being prideful because she wasn’t getting what she wanted. Evan is a compassionate, understanding person, and this came across to me as more of a scolding. Obviously our OP knows something isn’t quite right because she wrote in.
I agree, there’s no reason to get angry if he’s not in love after the first date! BUT, in my experience, if a guys acts very casual and sporatic in the first couple months, he probably only wants something casual…which isn’t so bad, could be fun! If the casual thing last too long and you want more, then its time to move on.
Being patient can pay off though. In fact, the one relationship that I did have to be really really patient for (a year before he called me his girlfriend) lasted a few years, but I always sort of resented him for taking so long in the beginning. and maybe deep down he was never really that into me, as after we broke up he married a girl after only knowing her a short time! Timing is everything I guess :/
Well I think if a man don’t call you five days and not even message you.Or keep any type of contact with you for five days and then one day suddenly reappears, then he is only looking for casual relationship or fling.
I just want to say that, if a guy is very shy then also he will make sure that he gives you some single to tell that he is interested in you, but a complete black out for five days and then calling is really for casual relationship..and no more
I’ve been reading everyone posts. I too grow impatient when I guy keeps talking with me but never goes out on a date or calls me. I don’t know what everyone thinks, but to me, it sounds like he’s not that interested. Like C. says, timing could be the reason. I’ve seen men go very slowly with a particular woman, only to turn around and marry another one after just a few months of going out. I’ve been in Terri’s position (as a matter of fact, just a month ago), and I have to admit I felt hurt too. Maybe the guy in Terri’s case just wants something more casual.
I have done a bit of research (not that it makes me an expert by any means) since I’ve been in counseling. But there is an actual diagnosis called Avoidant Personality Disorder. I don’t know if I just have the tendencies or am a full-blown case, but as I said in an earlier post, those who struggle with this would rather risk loneliness than rejection simply because the rejection is more painful. I’ve taken a break from dating until I work through this, because as of right now, I can’t detach emotionally from dating or not invest in the outcome.
I’m not saying this is Terri’s issue. But the DSM IV says that AvDP’s may:
Be easily hurt by criticism or disapproval
Hold back too much in intimate relationships
Be reluctant to become involved with people
Avoid activities or occupations that involve contact with people
Be shy in social situations out of fear of doing something wrong
Exaggerate potential difficulties
Hold the view they are socially inept, inferior, or unappealing to other people
Such people do crave relationship but it is frightening for them. Some are highly functioning and some, not so much. Many people who deal with this are preoccupied by some flaw they believe about themselves. For me, I wrestle with the idea that I can be desirable or worthy of love because I’m overweight. Some people can just “snap out of it” if they are aware of the tendencies; some have the self-awareness but the impluses to behave in an overly self-protective manner are so deeply rooted that counseling is needed. Most AvDP’s are hypervigiliant, watching for a rejection to come and the moment they see it coming, they bail before it happens.
Again, not saying any of this it right or healthy, just saying it exists.
I tend to agree with several other posters. If there was no communication of any kind after five days, I think the guy wants something more casual. Two great dates are nothing more than two great dates. We women like to often see more than there really is. 😉
I think deep down, Terri knows or at least suspects this, and because she really liked the guy, her actions were swift, albeit a bit hasty, in order to spare her further anguish. It takes practice to be able to slow down and better control your emotions and thoughts, and simply enjoy the great company of a guy purely and solely for what that is. There’s no agenda attached.
Many women need to keep in mind that guys are running on their own dating and relationship time line, and they cannot be pushed or prodded along. And if they can be pushed, they may not be the kind of guy you really want. While he may be wanting casual in the short-term and testing the water, that doesn’t mean it couldn’t turn into something more later.
Be confident, stay strong, believe that what is meant to be will be, keep your emotions in check [at least when first leaving the station :)], mirror his actions, be receptive without leaning forward, live a busy life, and don’t put all of your eggs into one basket.
I would be furious if my man keeps out of touch even for a single day. 5 days is a long period. Even if he is out of country, he makes a call. To know, men can take forever time and still remain undecided if they want you or not…it should be rather the girl’s decision!
sayanta and starthrower68,
I would say that Terri acted out of anger (the “red mist” comment). To a certain extent, it doesn’t matter why she behaved in the way she did. The question is how to get what she wants.
starthrower68 said: (#24)
“Avoidant Personality Disorder. […] those who struggle with this would rather risk loneliness than rejection simply because the rejection is more painful.”
In my teens and early twenties I feared rejection. I eventually got to where I didn’t take it personally. I’m the same person whether someone is interested in me or not.
If I’m interested in dating a woman, I ask her out. When I ask her out, there are two possible outcomes: she’ll say “Yes” and we’ll date -or- she’ll say “No” and we won’t date. If I don’t ask her out, then we won’t date. There are two outcomes (dating or not dating). The only possible way to reach the positive outcome is to ask her out. If I don’t ask her out, I automatically get the negative outcome.
Where is the risk? Risk implies that I could end up worse off than I was before. I’m already not dating her, and the negative outcome just keeps me in the same place I’m already at.
Obviously, this is more easily said than done. What I’m giving you is a way to play mind games with yourself. You distract yourself from from the fear and pain long enough to make the right decision.
Eventually it becomes second nature. You successfully train yourself into new patterns of thinking.
starthrower68 said: (#20)
“I’m going to get all Karl here on you”
I got a kick out of this phrase.
Karl,
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying about retraining your mind to think differently. That is part of overcoming it. But there’s a deep deep emotional component for some that has to be treated as well. I’m not quite sure how to explain it and we could get into a long psychological discussion about it, but suffice it to say there is a hurt or a brokeness there that also has to be repaired. At some point, while doing the heavy lifting, the things that you say and that I know in my mind to be true will become conviction and the heart will catch up with the head. For me, it hasn’t quite happened yet. But I’m still working on it.
Does mirroring behavior still apply after becoming exclusive?
I’ve been dating this guy for two months — he wanted to be exclusive after the first month, but I wanted more time. He asked again last weekend and I agreed to be his “girlfriend”. We usually see each other once a week on Saturday->sunday and we’ve also taken a camping weekend together with his sister and brother-in-law.
He’s expressed several times that he wants to see more of me, but doesn’t take much initiative to ask me out during the week. However, midweek dates are difficult because he lives an hour away and his work schedule requires him to be up early in the morning. He is happy to drive 1 hour each way to pick me up and drop me off for our dates, and I always express my appreciation to him.
What’s bothering me is the infrequent contact between dates. He drops me off on Sunday afternoon, and I don’t hear from him until I get a “missing you” text message on Wednesday morning, to which I respond in kind. He might call me around 7 pm that evening while I’m busy so he leaves me a voicemail. I call him back a couple of hours later (closer to his bedtime) and he sounds tired so we have a short conversation.
I recently mentioned to him that I feel disconnected from him during the week, but didn’t specifically relate it to lack of contact. I’ve never made a big deal about him not calling me. I wonder if he’s expecting me to initiate contact more often, maybe he wants me to pursue him? But I feel more comfortable with the man taking the lead.
Just not sure how to handle this, we’ve never really talked about it. I don’t want to come out and say “I like to be pursued”, but does it help the relationship to talk about these dynamics with each other?
Sigh…..sometimes I think I’ll never figure out how healthy relationships are supposed to work….
With a healthy relationship, HotSauce, there’s nothing to figure out.
so true Evan! When you are comfortable in a relationship things pretty much figure up by themselves.
this seems like a helpful website
Hotsauce,
Your needs are not being met. Tell him how to meet them and see how he responds.
Just ask matter of factly, “Do you think you can call me for a short while every day? A few minutes here and there would make me happy. And then maybe a longer conversation once a week.”
If he likes you, he’ll do it. If he says, “No, I’m not sure, that’s not how I roll.” Then you have to decide if you can compromise on this issue or not. If not, then tell him, “Look, I’m used to talking to my boyfriends every day. I didn’t realize you don’t like doing that. I can’t be happy in the long run with a boyfriend who I only talk to once a week. It doesn’t feel like a good to me. What do you want me to do?”
HotSauce, just speaking from experience and reading a lot about this common issue, guys are much slower. His time isn’t the same like our time. Their brain isn’t wired to think relationship 24/7 especially when he has so much on his plate work-wise (having to get up early, long hours at work are always a “good” excuse for them not to call). Most guys are okay speaking to you on the phone every few days or even once a week and if they have talked so much at work, the last thing they want when they get home is talking with another human being -and on the phone!. It’s no-news-is good-news kinda thing with them.
Now I understand, your needs are different to his. As a woman, you need “updates” every day, almost (he told me he loved me last week, does it still hold?). I have gone through similar situations more than I can count myself.
If you understand male biological imperative of “cave time” to restore their testosterone level after a long day at work and dealing with problems, you will at least be less insecure. They also got tired more readily than us because our female body is made for endurance with 20-25% more body fat, while their muscles break down at the rate twice faster than ours.
Also when they’re stressed after dealing with problems at work, they need to either do something (solve problems) or withdraw (if there is nothing he can do) to restore their testosterone level because while we use oxytocyn (the bonding hormone) to lower our stresses, men need testosterone.
The only way to have a man to pursue you is to let him come to you in his own time. Pursuing or nagging about it will only backfire. Yes we need loadsa patience, that’s why women need to have a full life separate from their men’s to be able to have a healthy relationship.
Hope this helps.
HotSauce, sounds like you and your guy are just on different schedules. You’re blaming him for being an early bird, when it’s equally your fault that you’re a night owl.
While I wouldn’t say a 2-hour R/T distance is LDR territory, it’s a non-trivial distance to have to go to see your GF/BF. Do you ever drive to see him?
@ HotSauce
To me, being exclusive simply means you both agree not to date others while dating each other. And being boyfriend/girlfriend means having become closer than “just dating” – “I love you’s” have been exchanged.
If you are officially his girlfriend I should think you would feel free to call him anytime you liked. I should also think you would be close enough to tell him you wanted more contact with him during the week.
Are you satisfied with seeing him only on weekends? What would you consider “pursueing you” at this point?
KPH-
That’s a really good post! You’ve done some great research. 😀 I’ll have to keep all this in mind when I’m dealing with men (not just romantically…I recognize what you’ve written in male family members as well).
Thanks, Sayanta. Since my breakup I have learnt a great deal about basic differences in men vs. women.
KP-
No problem. At the same time…thinking about it a little more, if we go by your theory, doesn’t it mean that men basically have no accountability in their relationships? (ie, they do whatever they want when the mood hits them, but expect women to always be on ‘best’ behavior). Not that all men really do behave that way, just the ones you’re using as examples in your theory,
Sayanta, if you opt to see it that way, that’s not a very empowering place to be in. See this as an avenue for self-growth. It’s all about you -how you are responsible for your own happiness and in charge of your own emotions- NOT them, the men.
Seek first to understand then be understood. See how magical that will be.
While, the inner workings of the male psyche may be a mystery to women, situations such as these are often self explanatory. It doesn’t take a guy or even your girlfriends to tell you that he doesn’t like you. The odds are if you have to ask, he probably just isn’t that into you to paraphrase Greg Behrendt.
If there was one piece of advice I would have adopted when I was younger (and immature, so I’ll give myself that!) was to be PATIENT! Now that I’m older, although it’s no my virtue, I totally get the value of patience. I often have to talk myself into patience, but so be it.
I just don’t get the move across country, uproot your life, move in with guy, meet the whole family, etc., etc., after a week, two weeks or even 4-5 months. What is the hurry? Especially if the relationship starts long distance…the only way we really get to know each other is by spending time together, in person. Not on the phone, not on line, not in IM/chat. So much about learning about people is situational–what does he do in his free time, what kind of phone calls is he making, how much time does he spend on line, how does he handle stressful situations, how does he handle negotiation, what are his habits, etc. etc.
Just some random thoughts 🙂
#30
SO well said and SO true Evan
After reading this, I know when I have seen a man interested (calling 2 days after the date to ask you out, calling you and texting you) and when a man is not that interested (waiting 5 days to call you and not asking you out right away). I would say, give the benefit of the doubt the first couple of weeks, but after that, if he is not calling you more and asking you out, then it is time to say goodbye. Because he is not that into you.
One more thing, just what I have noticed (not the truth), I see that Evan flips flops sometimes with his view (Pls dont take offense Evan, I totally like your what you are doing here). You say: What did you actually GAIN by cutting him off entirely? but in another post You stated why waste one more minute being with the wrong guy. Also, I have seen this in your Internet dating book also. Nothing wrong, it just that everyone has their beliefs and it is good to get guidance from other people, but the best advice is from your intuitive self.
Kim, if you can cite exactly where I contradicted myself, I’d be willing to own it. But your claim that sometimes I tell women to stay and sometimes I tell women to go doesn’t make your case. You don’t gain anything by cutting off a man who hasn’t responded to your email on Match.com for 2 days. You don’t lose anything by cutting off the man who’s been sleeping with you for six months without a commitment. These aren’t contradictions. This is common sense.
Kim is very right about Evan. He will clearly say to move on if the guy isn’t stepping up. Yet in this case, some meaningless texts are enough to give him a chance? A chance for what, more wasted time? The worst men are those who feign interest. No, this guy is just keeping her as a text buddy.
Okay, this is probably an old post but I have to make a comment. Good lord ladies, please take a chill pill. Just because a guy doesn’t hound you two or three times a week doesn’t mean he is out for a casual or sex only relationship. It also doesn’t mean he isn’t interested. It’s more likely he has a life outside dating such as hanging out with friends, family, or work. No man or woman should be a priority over these other things early on while dating ( 2 -3 months). If that’s the case, then the guy or girl probably doesn’t have a life. As sad as that is, i wouldn’t want to date a girl that doesn’t have a life outside of me. If a girl gets mad or gives me attitude about the time i spend with her and we are not exclusive and it hasn’t been 2 – 3 months, then i know she is not for me. She is selfish and insecure in my opinion and i will split. Remember to use your head and stop being so insecure next time you have to wait for a guy to call. I’d be willing to bet that 90% of the time a guy is not playing games or only looking for sex (make him wait). He probably just has other priorities. Or maybe he is worried that contacting you too much will scare you off. Two or three times a week might be good for some of you but other girls may see that as too needy. Oh, not to knock Evan but ladies you can contact a guy too. There is nothing more flattering than a girl contacting a guy first every now and then. Some of my best relationships have come from the girl approaching me first. That is all.
Well, I tried the mirroring thing, perhaps too literally, and this is how it turned out. I’ve been seeing a guy for about 2 months, although we only have time to see each other 1x/wk or every 2 weeks, as we are both busy with work/school, mostly me. He usually takes 1-2 days to contact me, but recently he took 3 days. He messaged me to ask me how my exam went. So, I decided to wait 3 days. Well, it only lasted 1.5 days because he messaged me again asking if I got his previous msg and if everything was ok…lol. (He is an expat and doesn’t have a good phone plan…yet).
So, I guess this points out he likes me….One more point, I still see he is online on the dating site where we initially met. (Note we initially met in February but I didn’t reciprocate enough interest back. I took my profile down, but contacted him in the summer and we rekindled things easily.) But I guess since we haven’t had an exclusivity talk, he can still do that…I haven’t initiated it yet, b/c I’m not sure if I want to be exclusive with him yet…
Well, I realize in my previous blab, I forgot to include my questions, oops…
I agree with Evan to let the man initiate prior to becoming exclusive, i.e., if he calls, you call him back; if he asks you out, you say yes. But is it really necessary to wait for example, 3 more days, if the guy takes 3 days to contact you again? And what if in the meantime, he asks if you got his message or voicemail, etc? Similarly, what if he takes 3 days to contact you again, but asks you out for Saturday on a Thursday? Well, if I waited 3 days, the weekend would be over and I wouldn’t get to see him. (Getting together during the week is difficult for me due to my schedule). And if I ignored his call or message, well, doesn’t that come across like I’m blatantly ignoring him? Everyone knows people in this age have their phones glued to them.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure how I feel about this advice.
I get that everyone wants to “play it cool” and seem detached but there is such a thing as too cool, and sometimes you do need to cut people off if they are “too cool”. All of my serious relationships have been with men who did not play it cool in the beginning. They were consistent and kept in touch regularly. The issue with a man who texts you once every week or two is that he is avoiding building any intimacy with you or getting close to you. Regardless if you mirror his behavior or not, that man is showing you that he’s not looking for anything serious. Why even play the game if he’s already making it loud and clear that you’re just someone he texts when he’s bored.
Are his friendly texts invitations to hang out or go on a date? If not than you’re a back-burner girl. He’s keeping things light and on good terms with you just in case it does’t work out with the girl he’s really interested in. People who are ready to find someone special won’t randomly text and let days and weeks go by without speaking.
Also, this idea that only relationships that start off slow are the ones that last is also bullshit. One of my worst relationships was one that started off slow and steady, it eventually crashed and burned no different then the ones that developed fast.
If something feels off, then something is off. Three dates is more than enough time to figure out if you want to continue seeing someone. You’re supposed to get closer, not further apart. If a man is communicating with you infrequently then he is not very interested in you seriously.
Ladies. stop following this dumb and advice and do what feels right. A women’s intuition is her strongest power, follow it.
Jesskia, this is such excellent advice.
Jessika, I agree with you 100%.
Evan, you got this one wrong. Wasn’t it you who once wrote that texting means nothing? She’s not blocking his texts, she’s answering briefly. If he WANTED to see her, the text would say, “Hi, let’s have dinner Saturday night at 7 pm”. Not meaningless banter of Hi, what’s up, etc.
Men know quickly who they want. He seems to like her, but isn’t wild to keep her off the market. She is one of several text buddies! I guarantee you, the inane texts will continue for months without action. He might hook her up with her eventually, yet another time-waster that doesn’t mean anything, but no, he just isn’t into her. Everytime she answers him, she mentally keeps him in her mind–time to cross him off and stay open to meeting new men.
Grace
This guy always texting me for six months and he is the one always initial asking me out. After six months, his texting became less to non texting and stop initial dating me. Actually I like him and I try to asking him out a few times to give him hint that I like him but he always rejected me. One of the excuse is he saying many problems in work recently, so no mood going out. Then, one week later, he going out with someone having a nice dinner. Then another day I asking him out again and he said busy but a few days later he is going out dinner with someone again. He always rejected me but he dating someone out for dinner. It is so hurt me and I texting him that the way he treat me really hurt me but he did not care and did not reply me. I really want to delete him from social media and assume we never meet before.