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Unfortunately, the pool of men that I’m dating from (early to mid 40s, usually divorced) are pretty messed up. A number of them want younger women (never mind that I look much younger) – didn’t anyone tell these guys that women hit their sexual prime over 40:-)?
I’m besieged by the 50+ set even though our lives are completely different (like my kids are young and theirs are grown and they don’t want anymore). A number of gentlemen I’ve met shouldn’t have been dating at all because they are still grieving. And the most surprising phenomenon that I’ve witnessed in this pool of men is that being a pretty, happy, vivacious “cool chick” is a big negative strike against me. I’m amazed at how many of them fall for the psycho Bs and drama queens.
My last (short-term – I can’t find one healthy enough to become long term!) boyfriend told me I was the first mentally healthy woman he dated in 3 years. But although I had everything he wanted in a woman, he didn’t feel any “chemistry” for me – so he went back to a younger woman who had serious enough issues that she lost custody of her kids. And he is not the only guy I’ve encountered like this. Another date, who didn’t feel chemistry with me but we became friends, I’ve watched him fall for all the women who don’t want to give him the time of day. He gets his butt kicked time and again and then cries on my shoulder.
I’ve tried all the big dating websites and I go out a lot (that is another weird phenomenon – men my age sit home on the weekends and don’t go out and do anything so I never meet anyone by just going out and having fun). So Evan where can I find the emotionally available mentally healthy men who will appreciate a woman like me? Thanks!!!!!
Joan
A very honest letter, Joan. I anticipate that you speak for a lot of readers out there – quality woman who are frustrated at their ability to meet quality men. I can tell, from your tone, that you’re speaking your truth, based on your experience, and I would never attempt to negate it. However, I would like to expand on your truth. Maybe put it into a different perspective.
If we take everything you wrote at simply face value, you’re pretty close to the perfect woman. Young for your age, emotionally stable, cool, etc. This is good news. Now, by your estimation, there are no men out there who are either a) interested or b) qualified for a long-term relationship. Let’s analyze both of those things. And let’s delve into the assertion that “being a pretty, happy, vivacious ‘cool chick’ is a big negative strike against you. Because that’s simply untrue.
What is true is that your options are unfairly limited. This is a dilemma that faces any woman on the far side of 35. Your value goes up – your self-awareness, your experience, your wisdom, your sex drive, your income – and yet, to men, your value goes down. And the main reasons it goes down are because he wants to have kids or because he’s still a slave to the Maxim aesthetic. One reason that women rarely want to consider (and I’m not necessarily applying this to you, Joan), is that with their experience comes a darker lining. As fellow coaches and bloggers have pointed out, sometimes successful, intelligent women can also be anxious, self-righteous, negative, and entitled. These are not the adjectives women use to describe themselves; these are the adjectives that men often use to describe you based on their own dating experiences.
A relevant aside: Last year, it dawned on me that for every “crazy girl” dating story I had, there was a woman on the other end who was telling her own version of the story, except that in her version, she’s the heroine and I’m the bad guy. We all have myopia when it comes to dating. It’s much easier to find fault in others than it is to find it in ourselves. Studies have shown that people in couples overestimate what they bring to relationships – their generosity, their emotional availability – because they are exclusively inside their own heads. We remember our good deeds more than others’ good deeds. We don’t keep track of how many times our partner kept his/her mouth shut for the sake of harmony. But our partner does. Each of us thinks we’re the martyr.
So am I saying that you, Joan, are anxious and negative? Not at all. What I am saying is that you’re only seeing things from your own perspective. Which is limited. If you’ve gone out with a handful of guys who ended up with drama queens, that brings up a very obvious question: why would any man prefer a drama queen over you? If you think it’s because men like drama, I’ll have to respectfully disagree. I wrote about this in Why You’re Still Single. Once a man reaches a certain age, he prefers easy relationships. When we’re younger, we may tolerate craziness, just because we’re lonely or desperate for sex. But as we mature and value ourselves, we tend to court what makes sense for us in the long term. I’m not suggesting that the drama queens make sense to your exes, per se. I am challenging you to consider why he’d choose them over you at all. We’re largely rational beings. There has to be some reason, right?
I was on a plane two days ago and found myself seated next to an attractive and wealthy 59-year-old man. We got to talking and I learned that, not surprisingly, he had a predilection for younger women. In addition to the obvious physical attraction reasons, this man emphasized that it was so much EASIER to go out with a younger woman who has not yet been scarred by life. Someone who is up for anything. Someone who doesn’t judge. Someone who doesn’t tell you how to act. Keep in mind if you’re reading this that a younger woman doesn’t have to be a sycophant or a brainless chimp (although some insecure men are just fine with that). But for the men you’re interested in, the younger woman just has to be open and fun and easy to get along with. This is one of the things that women often ignore when they question the tastes of men. Every time I hear a woman saying that she “intimidates” men, this is what comes to mind. First of all, you don’t want to be with a man who is intimidated by you. Second of all, the greater likelihood is that not that he’s intimidated, but that he doesn’t want to be challenged by you on every little matter. This doesn’t mean he wants you to “dumb it down.” It means he wants you to “take it easy.”
That said, men ARE impossibly shallow. I struggle with it in my coaching every day. Clients who tell me, as they show me their lists of hot, underaged favorites, “I can’t help what I’m attracted to”. Yeah. There’s not much we can do about that. It’s why the 50+ set is interested in you. Just know that there ARE men out there who are looking for peers. My 60-year-old Mom married a 60-year-old guy. I’ve had single parent clients find the love of their lives on Match, JDate and every dating app. It happens all the time.
But one thing I’ve learned from years of dating and dating coaching is that there’s nothing to learn when placing the blame squarely on everybody else. I hear your pain in your email, Joan. It’s frustrating out there. I completely agree. But I assume your question was not simply looking for validation: “You’re perfect. Men suck. Don’t change.” A question seeks an answer. And if you’re not arriving at the answers yourself, it’s useful to get another perspective. In this case, a male perspective.
Listen, if you’re dating online with a great profile, great photos, healthy flirting technique, and a long-term subscription, great. If you’re going out and doing things you love and putting yourself in the position to meet like-minded men, great. If you’re still finding that there isn’t one quality man in the world who wants a quality woman like you, I have to question something. There are quality men out there – even if they’re few and far between. Most of them want to date someone younger – because they can. But if you are all the things you say you are, I have no doubt that some quality single dad is going to grab you and never let you go.
Just don’t make the mistake of assuming that there are no emotionally available men, that men prefer drama, or that men don’t want “cool” women. Because that type of false thinking doesn’t lead to anything positive.
JimmyE says
Everyone talks about how middle aged men want to date younger women, but take a look at some twentysomething profiles and you’ll notice how many are willing to date men up to twenty years older then them, but rule out candidates born 12 months after them.
That’s their perogative, but i can’t help but wonder how many women dated older men in their twenties, and then complained that their peers considered them too old 10 years later.
J says
They don’t control a male’s level of undateability. Simply Darwin theory. If mental and emotional age were stressed as much as the shallow then this problem would hardly exist. Doubtful.
Vicki says
JimmyE,
I am 38, and I adore younger men. I have had a crush on a younger guy (he looks about 17 or 18, but I don’t dare ask him!) who works as a waiter at a restaurant I frequent with my parents. I actually have a mental block about dating older men, even a couple of years older seems so very very old to me! lol I think it is just each person has their own tastes you know. Unfortunately, society praises the older man-younger woman pairings, and disparages older women-younger men pairings. The pressure can be a bit daunting. Many people who are cool about seeing gay couples out together are openly horrified if they see a woman out with a younger man. Why is that??? It is the final frontier, in my opinion, and I guess I want to be a trailblazer! lol. So, not all women exclude younger men. I only wish more of them would date me! 🙂
Vicki
Susan Nercher says
Vicki
Well, if society praises the older man-younger woman pairings, and disparages older women-younger men pairings as you claim (which I don’t necessarily believe is universally true), it’s probably because of the way people view gender roles.
A man who is 50 can date a 25-year-old woman if he is rich and fertile, so a 25-year-old woman isn’t missing out on anything. She can still become a mother and she can reap the advantages of his experience and wealth. Society still expect men to be the providers. And society seem to accept the notion of women being gold-diggers more readily than the notion of men being gold-diggers.
But a 25-year-old man dating a 50-year-old woman is different. A 25-year-old man most likely will not have any money. If he did, why would he date a 50-year-old woman when he can date a woman his own age? He is probably dating the older woman because she has money. She probably won’t be able to give him a child. And people are still not that comfortable with men living off of women. Men are still expected to earn their money on their own.
As far as gay couples are concerned, not everyone is happy to see them together out in the open but for those who are, it’s because many view them as finally enjoying the rights that straight couples have enjoyed after years of discrimination. Gender roles are not assigned to gay couples as they still tend to be to straight couples.
CELIPOD says
Sorry to say, but even in many couples where the wife is older, the gender roles can be kept. It is not age that decides gender roles. Also, not all men wish to date younger women. That is generalization. And some people, men and women, would prefer/are attracted to younger people because of the obvious: younger appearance, firmer skin and body, more energy and so much more easy to impress. If you put in front of me two eligible bachelors who were equally desirable and equally in love with me, one younger and the other older, I would obviously choose the younger, because I can.
People frown also upon older man/younger women combination. I know this because I see how my friends who are in this situations are suffering because of the gossip. People frown upon anything that is not conventional because it threatens their tunneled vision which is their entire belief system. For then is like telling a Christian or a Jew that God does not exist. Also women tend to be envious of each other, unfortunately. I hate this aspect of womanhood, but is so true. A woman who chose a lesser man thinks the one with the older/younger husband has it better than her. So she judges, gossips and gets a clique of equally bitchy women to exclude the one who decided to be different.
Men are not much different actually. A man choosing a younger woman may go through a lot of unpleasantness with his family or with her family because they will try ti advise against such a union because of the “gold digger” myth. One who chooses an older wife, risks of being excluded from his male clique, and may have difficulties with his mother accepting an experienced woman as a daughter-in-law. Most moms of boys dream of the young and easy to manipulate daughter-in-law. Studies do show though that both men and women are happier if they marry people their own age. Probably because society is cruel, maybe because they can relate to one another more easily that way.
It is ignorant to say that men marry older women to “live off them.” I happen to know a case of a older wife who is a happy housewife, and another who works a job that does not make her rich, and her younger husband earns more than she does. She has a grown up son, and her husband now doesn’t really want children of his own anyway. My colleague married for the first time at 40 and had her first child at 42. Younger women who are struggling to conceive or are struggling to find available men to marry are envious of the older woman who “takes their place” so to speak.
Giving children is not the only asset a woman has. To believe such a thing and limit your feminine values to just that is very foolish and ignorant. Remember that there are many young women, some I know personally, who cannot be pregnant. Some because of disease and others because of no reason at all. There are men who cannot conceive too.
Marriage is about love. Love, to exist between a man and a woman, does not need children. The offspring is just the result of that love. So start with a man who loves you very much and is willing to give you everything he has, including himself. Then, you are sure he would love you no matter what: children, or no children, in sickness and in health. That is the most important. I’d rather never marry than choose poorly and regret it later, because a married life where you feel alone and deserted, is far worse than a life as a single person and a few bad dates.
Susan Nercher says
There are still those in society that believe when a younger person marries a considerably older person, it’s because of money. There are still those that believe that the woman’s main asset is to bear a child. I don’t necessarily believe these things are true in all cases and society is changing but many still feel that way.
But then again, if a person wants someone who is younger because of their beauty and stamina another person wants an older person because of their money and accomplishments, so what? Marriage is a partnership and people should be free to define their partnerships the way they want.
Marriage should be about love but it many cases it’s not. Many marry for convenience or because they want a trophy spouse, trophy kids and a trophy house. Some start out in love but fall out of love.
Instead of just asking yourself what marriage and children can do for you, you should also ask yourself what you can do for another person and for your children. In all relationships there are responsibilities and obligations and if you can’t handle them then you shouldn’t marry and/or have children. Too many marry and have children because it is the default mode of society but they should think outside of the box. I think more people would be happier this way in general.
ovaoffice says
I wish my manfriend thought like you do. I’m 44 and he’s 34. We’ve been together 4 years. He never wanted children but now he suddenly thinks he might ‘some day’ and our relationship is totally on the rocks because of it. I feel that if he loved me, my ovary function wouldn’t matter. But, his potential regrets someday of not having had children (he won’t be ready until I’m too old, he says) possibly trumps his value of me as his partner.
Lalamusic58 says
Well said! I’wouldn’t say better!:)
Cass T says
Personally, my experience goes as this.. I am a 43 years young; always admired and told I look 10 years or more younger, fun, and vivacious. Men of all ages are attracted to me and I am constantly hit on by men much younger starting at age 18. As a divorcee once married to a man 10 years older, I have little to no interest in men closer to my age unless they too look younger and youthfully energetic. I also find that older single men 35 and older, have been by a former relationship, many have lost everything they have through divorce or otherwise, and just simply a miserable bunch. It is no wonder that many of them look for a woman younger, as she will be less experienced, and will likely not challenge them. Most older men love a good looking vivacious woman 40 and older, its just many factors that may keep them afraid to pursue. Now, the younger men I decide to date, and the youngest so far has been 30, has a real mans heart and enjoys taking care of his woman. I wouldn’t have it any other way if we are talking a relationship. Without shame, I can say that I am not the woman who craves a relationship, and a casual partner here and there is most times perfect for what I m looking for. Whenever I meet a man, I make it clear that I am no sugar momma, I’m spoiled, and like to be taken care of. I never have a problem getting what I want. So, it is all about the woman. If you are confident in self, blessed enough, learned your value in life, not needy at all, non judgmental, and apt to let things flow, men will love that in you. In my experience, there are no shortage of men young and old that are looking for real love with a woman like me. I’m just picky and will only commit when I am ready to the right guy. I guess to sum it all up, my advice to every woman is to be a lady, but think like a man. It’s easier when you are born with that mindset as I was, but it can be learned. I love teaching unlearned women!
Jim says
A young man will not have a long term relationship with an older woman. Pump and dump, have a little fun sure……but looks and fertility are what most men want and older women are lacking in these areas.
hot and 44 says
untrue. Married a younger man, and LTR with another younger man.
BOB says
You are correct! “Older” women typically get so hormonal and with taking care of themselves very vigorously can have a longer shelf life. Most are very damaged goods and claim “to look much younger”, don’t! Granted as an older male you can have a lot of bonding experiences from times gone past, many of the younger ones are very much into the times we grew through. As a good friend of mine said “young women are eager to please” and can be much more sexual. He is/has dated more than we can count. So there is your proof is in the pudding. Just as a much younger woman most likely will not be attracted to a flabby out of shape male with man boobs. As a male in his mid fifties I see how they still check me out and not only me some of my friends too. So as long as you are “breed able” your in, if you are not, you are not. Simple as that! Older women are kind of like smoking cigarettes, they are cool when your young but will take a serious toll on your health! This applies to today. Years ago women had value to a man, not today. Look around, they are self absorbed, narcissistic beings. Men used to have to prove themselves to you. Now you all run around like chickens with your heads cut off and think a man is going to jump through your hoops, ain’t happening, not a real guy! Wait till this generation of tattoos, piercings, bare legs, excessive self lovelettes get old. Fat sagging blobs of holey inks! Good luck! So talk to the younger women, not your old sagging biddies that just want to bitch, and ask them why they are not interested in the “young, video playing, no money, limp dick, piss the bed, I don’t want to work, I don’t have my own place to live, I want to get drunk every night, with no responsibility shemales that mommy kissed their ass their whole life! Yeah it’s a rant, but true! Go ahead and ask them! You obviously see this but want to live in denial. Just as you older women cleaned out the guys pension/equity in their lives, now you can pay the price. Have fun, and be lonely. When the guy wanted you to “wear something sexy, “I’m too fat”, wear something sexy, I’m too fat, put on something sexy, “I’m too fat”. I’m leaving! Why? “Your too fat!” Even the guys that aren’t all that good looking get significantly younger women. The one guy that comes in here is with a chick 27 years younger. (he has no money) So all you jaded self righteous older women, keep listening to your magazines , Opra, walk around with your ugly bare legs, drink you 8000 calorie cocalocamocha from7-11 but paint your toe nails and get a tattoo on your ankle, and think some guy is supposed to find you attractive? Men don’t want to sit and hold hands, or go “walking on the beach at sunset drinking wine with a full figured (FAT) woman”. That is your dose of reality! As Jack Nicholson said in As Good As It Gets, “I take a man and take away all reason and accountability” no truer words have been spoken!
Lisa says
I disagree. I am married 22 years with a man who is ten years younger. We have no kids. I have no money. He is worth 1.4 million and we dont plan on divorcing. He loves me and i love him. He is irish and i am puerto rican. Sorry but your theory does not hold. Everybody is different and some people take marriage seriously and meet the love of their lives.
Dede says
People accept it because it’s always been the norm. Women have been valued for the ability to have children and men for their ability to provide. Is it fair? No. Do I think it will change? No
Bonnie says
Vicki,
I hear what you’re saying 100% about the double standard, I’m generally attracted to younger men as well. I’m 46 but people always think I’m around 33. However, a 38 year old anyone with a 17 or 18 year old anyone is a bit much…and this is coming form someone who finds many 20-something year old men insanely attractive. I wouldn’t date them though..they are too close to my 24 year old daughter’s age. Admiring is ok, (but I feel like even that should have some age boundaries, for instance, your waiter crush was a newborn when you were 20). I’m really not trying to judge, but if we say that’s acceptable, then are we also saying its acceptable for men (or women) in their 20’s, 30’s or above to also be attracted to children?
Hadley Page says
Evan Has hit it on the head. We want easy.
First some back ground. I am a. 49 yr old lawyer, divorced w 2 kids that I have 1/2 time. I am relatively sane, relatively reasonable & considerate, relatively presentable, relatively fun & entertaining and relatively financially secure. And yes, I have my fair share of issues just like everyone else.
I don’t have much of a problem meeting and dating women. But I do have a challenge meeting women that I am interested in having an LTR with. Why? Because at this point in my life I don’t want a women who is trying to change me> I don;t want hassles. I don’t want difficult. I want easy. After pondering this for a few years I have concluded that easy and pleasant are the 2 most important qualities in a women for me — More important that attractiveness, more important than great sex.
In theory I have no issue with successful, intelligent women. But my experience has shown me that, as Evan says, they can often be anxious, self-righteous, negative, and entitled. (NOT EASY)
Sorry, I wish it wasn’t true, but for me it seems to be.
Ladies., if you want to get into an LTR you might consider thinking about what is really important for you and what you can live without.
Hadley Page
Joanne says
“Easy” means not having any of your own needs – you exist strictly to make the man happy! Who needs that?
Most middle aged men are ful of anxiety as well – who isn’t at middle age?
I agree with Joan – men sit at home in front of the tube. They don’t go out, or can’t afford to. I want find any and I live in a big city where most people are doing well financially. Heaven forbid if a woman is doing well financially. Men seem to turn pea green with envy. They don’t want to be less successful than their date for sure.
I had a lovely date with an attorney in which we spent two hours talking – and not about carees or money. He walks me to my car and immediately his ego was crushed because of what car I drive? Unbelievable but understandable – men need to be in control of everything and women are suppose to be “easy” or stupid or dependent. How romantic!
I say give up Joan. You are looking for a needle in a haystack – and quite frankly – who needs the hassle of walking on eggshells around someone’s ego. Let them date and pay for the 30 something drama queens with a brood of children.
Have fun out there –
Henriette says
@Joanne: I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that we not have our own needs or that we exist to make men happy. It’s more about being a bit more agreeable (probably great advice not just with the guy you’re dating but also with family and platonic friends, too).
For example,
if someone you care about makes a mistake and sincerely apologises, you graciously accept and move on instead of holding a grudge.
if you there’s no movie at the cinema that interests you but your loved one is DYING to see something that isn’t necessarily your cup of tea (eg. you generally prefer historical dramas or comedies and he wants to watch <Battle of the Ninja Robots,>) that you just watch what he wants, with no complaints.
if someone takes you to dinner at a restaurant where the food is mediocre, you express gratitude that someone picked you up, took you out, and that you don’t have to spend the next half hour washing/ cleaning up after the meal instead of whining about the overcooked mackerel
This is the sort of kind & forgiving attitude I appreciate in a man (as well as friends and family) and that men also seem to find appealing in women.
Joe says
i think by “easy” he means we don’t get the whole run around about how we act. we know who we are now just as much an older woman knows themselves. we don’t want someone to change us or be unhappy if we cant/wont. we don’t want someone who’s too busy to make a real go of it. we don’t want someone who is hard to get along with period.(now THAT is drama) I prefer older women, I’ve dated 3 out of 35 though in the past 20 years because they try to change me or they have so much going on that they have no time to chill and hang out. i learned a lesson a while back: its not about finding someone whose perfect, its about finding someone with flaws that you can live with. To the woman who wrote the letter, if most men are staying in and watching TV on the weekends its probably because we worked all week and are tired or we honestly think there’s no good reason to go out( IE wont meet anyone). most guys my age will not go places alone because we don’t want to be “that sad guy over there” all by ourselves.
Lalamusic58 says
It’s so true!:)))
Cat5 says
“I don’t have much of a problem meeting and dating women. But I do have a challenge meeting women that I am interested in having an LTR with. Why? Because at this point in my life I don’t want a women who is trying to change me> I don;t want hassles. I don’t want difficult. I want easy. After pondering this for a few years I have concluded that easy and pleasant are the 2 most important qualities in a women for me – More important that attractiveness, more important than great sex.”
Funny…that’s how I feel also – I don’t want guys trying to change me either. But, when I say it, I get told I have to change or no man will want to be with me. But, when you, a man, says it people chime in about how women shouldn’t try to change men.
But, it feels to me like Evan’s whole program is tellling women we have to change, but then telling us to be authentic in the relationship with no recognition those two things don’t always co-exist.
For me, the more authentic I am, the less dates I have, and the more I pretend to be someone else, the type of woman that Evan and Karmic Equation are always harping on how women should be and how wonderful these types of women are – they are right, the more dates I have.
But, it doesn’t feel right to me at all. Why should pretend to be helpless, incompetent, or like I don’t know the answer to something when I do just so some man can feel better about himself? We are always told we shouldn’t external validation if we love ourselves, how is this any different if he’s a guy? Besides, a guy that’s so insecure he can’t deal with fact I’m competent and smart, isn’t attractive to me anyway.
Plus, when I have to pretend to be someone I’m not, I feel like a fake and I don’t find it very enjoyable. Most of the time my takeaway is if the guy is having a good, hassle free time that’s all that matters.
Hooe says
Hi Hadley
You speak openly,honestly,along with Truth😊
Thank you
Hope
Cheshire England UK .
Suze says
I’m coming into this discussion late.
Have you noticed in this exchange that women’s behavior/demeanor etc is being put to blame here, and men are being let off scott free?
Don’t get me wrong. I think it is quite valid to point out that older women who have developed higher standards should put a plug on their nagging harpie tendencies–if indeed that is truly how they are coming across.
But is it?
How are men coming across? Likeable? Confident? Mature? Chivalrous? Relationship material?
The underlying message in the commentary here is that women are the ones who need to change their flawed behavior.
Why? Because we want relationships more than men do?
Here is the sad truth: more women, across the board, at all ages, are opting to be single because they do not like the quality of men out there.
There are now more single women than married women and the numbers are expected to grow. This is an historical development
the numbers are going to continue to grow until men elect to examine their own behavior and not put the responsibility of change squarely on women.
So I guess there is going to be a whole lot of sexual frustration going on in both corners.
c’est la vie.
n lee says
I am a woman and I strongly agree with your response regarding the ‘quality’ of single men available which. This can sometimes be discouraging and make dating a bit challenging. I think it is important to be active and open to meeting people and trying new venues which keeps the dating game fun and interesting.
Thank you
D. says
Excellent point Suze! I completely agree about how it nearly always seem to come down to what women are doing wrong and how we can adjust if we want to have any kind of relationship with a man. Which may be true because it looks like we’re the ones expected to change more often. I think it’s due to well, 1000’s of years of the power paradigm being structured one way and suddenly in the 20th+ centuries it’s being challenged and is changing to go into another direction altogether, completely foreign to humanity …and with it comes a whole lotta growing [email protected] For us and them!
I think in particular American men have a really difficult time with the emotional elements of life, relationships etc.
I always try to work on my [email protected]#t and grow with people and don’t always get the same in return from the men in my life, friend or lover. It’s easy to become jaded and give up….Meh… but I don’t wanna! 🙂
Karmic Equation says
No man is perfect. Just as no woman is perfect. So unless you, yourself, are indeed perfect, there is always room for improvement.
If you don’t want to adjust to men, that is certainly your prerogative.
However, you telling men to change won’t make them change. You have absolutely NO control over anyone but yourself. So either you change, so that YOU can MORE EFFECTIVELY get what you want.
Or you can stagnate as you are and just complain about how come no man wants to stay with you beyond the first b*ng, assuming you let them get that far. And if you let a man get that far, knowing how imperfect and unchanging he will be, you have no one to blame but yourself if he disappears.
So don’t date. Don’t listen to dating experts. Don’t post on blogs. Save your energy and time and continue as you are. You sound so happy.
Kirk says
Karmic Equation sounds like me. And I totally agree!
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not power. It’s practicality. Quick: how can a man “change” you? How can he “make you” love him? How can he “make you” commit to him? How can he “make you” communicate more effectively and shed the demons of your past relationships. He can’t. All he can do is accept you as you are, and if he can’t accept you, find a woman he CAN accept. Same advice goes for women. What part of that do you disagree with?
So if this is a blog for women, wouldn’t it make sense to give women, y’know, some actual ADVICE, as opposed to “You’re perfect. You’re doing everything right. He has to change”. Wouldn’t that be a boring read? Furthermore, who would it help? No one. Advice for women cannot be “men should change” because that’s called validation, not advice. Advice is about what YOU can do differently. So, what can you differently? You can adjust to him or you can dump him. You can’t change him. It’s not your job. It’s not your right. No more than it’s his right to change you.
Are we done with this?
Westhebest says
U did give up babe
Kim says
Well said! Love how balanced and good-hearted you are!
Noelle says
Thank you for saying this. All the advice i see given to women are how we need to understand how men work and the many ways in which we overwhelm them. How often are men told to become more in tune with their emotions and understand the way the woman’s brain is wired? We are all apparently hard-wired a certain way..so why is it that we must bow down to pleasing the male brain? We are continuously told how much we need to change and be maleable in order to please our male counterparts so that one of them will find us “perfect” enough to marry. We just continue to perpetuate and enable “boys will be boys”.
hurkdurkler says
“How often are men told to become more in tune with their emotions and understand the way the woman’s brain is wired?”
Actually, every male has been hearing that drumbeat daily for at least the last quarter century. Ironically, the more that men try to do what women said they want, the more women reject/divorce them. Men that cannot or will not be “emo” actually do really well in dating and marriage.
JoeK says
Quarter Century? Oh, no, I’ve been hearing it a LOT longer than that!
Barb says
So true, it’s a man’s world and always has been…that’s why they don’t think they need to change anything….women have always catered to and deferred to a man…when can we stop?
Ja says
When women start maintaining the infrastructure, defending the country on the front lines , and doing all the dirty messy jobs that make daily life as you live it possible. Till then, make your man a sandwich . If that gets Your panties in a ruffle , split the check next time you go out. You are strong and independent .
Roy says
“There are now more single women than married women and the numbers are expected to grow. This is an historical development
the numbers are going to continue to grow until men elect to examine their own behavior and not put the responsibility of change squarely on women.”
==================================================
Well Suze your 1st paragraph is correct – as for the 2nd paragraph, in a world where women think 80% of men are ‘below average’ the numbers you speak of are going to grow indefinitely…
John says
I’m married now but before I met my wife I had adjusted to a single life at 26 and frankly had sort of come to the conclusion that I would remain single and was OK with that having given up long ago around my early 20s after repeatably going to bars and clubs only to come home empty handed instead preferring to stay in with my other friends in similar circumstances.
Of course not being much of a internet user back then or a reader of women’s magazines I hadn’t realized the shift that was taking place and started to get asked out a lot once I got into my later 20s. Well eventually I met my wife and yes she is about 10 years younger so I’m one of those guys and that was that.
My point is this. Guys are willing to take a lot of crap to get sex especially the younger they are. However the older they get it just stops being worth it.
You say that women shouldn’t have to change. OK – That’s your choice.
I didn’t change when I was younger. I wasn’t forward enough. I didn’t put enough thought into my appearance. I wouldn’t do anything I didn’t want because a woman wanted me to. Well the women where perfectly happy without me. I had no value in the marketplace yet I was behaving like I did.
It was the biggest mistake I made and frankly most of my 20s I was pretty miserable.
Women have no value in the marketplace over a certain age and you have to adapt.
The men will be fine no matter what.
Cat5 says
“Women have no value in the marketplace over a certain age and you have to adapt.” Wow!!! Thanks for telling all older women we have no value. It’s appreciated. You have made us all feel so much better and hopeful for the future! 😉
So, my question for you is this, how do we adapt to having no value? And if we have no value, what’s the point in changing anything? It won’t give us anymore value. What does the cost benefit analysis look like?
AllHeart81 says
Those are awesome questions I would like to know the answers to as well Cat! John, can you help us ladies out?
Different John says
Cat5,
I really don’t think he meant it that way. I am 25 year old male currently, so I am where he was at probably several years ago. I’ve seen what he is talking about, and I have even started feeling it myself recently. Despite what you may think guys under I’d say 26 to 28 do have a really hard time dating and an impossible time finding love. Especially the ones who grow into the fit successful men in their 30s everyone wants. We were overlooked, constantly rejected, and put up with so much let down that many of us had to “Adjust” aka pretty much giving up on finding anything with a semblance of being real. The younger we were, the worse it was too. Suddenly though we graduate college and get a career going, then the money and confidence begins flowing in. Our jawlines get sharper and we look more masculine (if you take care of yourself), now we are in our early 30s. Being a nerd and working hard has paid off, but we still want a family, we still want the ” young hot girl” we were never “qualified for”, and we realize girls we would have dated years ago when we had no value (they weren’t too hot for us either), no longer are good enough for us. (I will say if you bag one of these guys when he’s younger you’d have much better luck with a husband from what I’ve seen.) Some young men peak later than others. The attractive women our age who rejected us (usually for older successful guys or complete a holes generally speaking if he’s our age) for the past decade are getting too old for children now (or have them), and we want our own families, so we look younger. We figured we paid our dues, we are successful and now valued romantically, it’s now our game for the first time ever and it’s definitely new to be in that position. Unfortunately the dynamic turns around at that point and things get more challenging for older women wanting something real. It is yet another way nature balances itself. You do have value as a human and as a woman. You just do not have the romantic value you did back when serious minded good men who still want to start families would look at you as a dating option.
P.S. I did this on my phone, pardon grammer and spelling mistakes please.
AllHeart81 says
Different John – I think the reality is that you want to give yourself permission to look down on women simply because you’ve had heart ache and rough experiences in life. And now you think all women should be punished for your own persona heartache.
Dating has never been very easy for me either. Even when I was in my 20s. Men where not beating down my door and I was not coldly rejecting them. I was rejected often myself infact. I was over looked. I watched men pursue my more attractive friends. So why should I (and any other women who have their own unique dating experiences and struggles) be punished now just because you had a hard time dating when you were younger and have developed a strange vindictive idealism about what you believe you deserve as a 30 something man compared to your 30 something year old female contemporaries? Perhaps you should take some time to get to know who women really are and what their dating experiences truly have been. I think you like holding onto the idea that dating was a wonderfully magical place of fun for young women that abused their power and now deserve to be seen as having less worth then what you wish for yourself. I think you secretly enjoy this. Not because it’s reality, but because it gives you permission to look down on women.
Honestly, most men at 26 actually don’t want to settle down. They want to party, have fun, explore their options and pursue the hottest of girls. They aren’t looking to start families with nice young women. So please stop justifying your current brand of misogony against women just because you have pain and heartache in dating. Every human being has that regardless of their age. When you see women as human beings, then your eyes will be open to this. Until then, I’m sure you will continue to justify to yourself that you’re now a more worthy human being then women your own age simply because like every single man and woman on the earth, experienced rough times and heartache in love. Thanks for completely denying women any humanity.
Ja says
If you didn’t depend on your looks when you were younger, and developed your character and knowledge this wouldn’t be a problem. Of course this is a generalization , not all women were like that in their youth.
Chelsea says
John, I think your comment lacks tact and sensitivity towards the ladies here because of the way you wrote those last two sentences.
By the way, I’m glad you found a nice lady after trying so long with no success.
I guess I’m one of those lucky ladies who doesn’t struggle getting dates or offers of commitment from men her own age and even younger. I don’t make a lot of money, and I don’t have any hang ups about age.
I know my value as a good woman and all I have to offer if I were to meet a man I want to be in a LTR with. I am not desperate, and I know I’m better off single until/if I meet the right man.
So, why don’t I struggle like other ladies in their late 30s or 40s, etc, finding men their age?
One thing, I hate nagging, I’m not pushy, and yes, in a date I let them feel like the man. I’m confident enough.
Ladies out there, if you feel anxious due to your job, kids, etc, take up meditation, yoga, or any other relaxing activities. As we get older our lives get a little busier sometimes and can leave us chronically stressed and it affects romance and dating since it shows in our behavior and faces. – This applies to men too.
Sharon says
I find your message very insightful and admirable for a younger man because our wants and desires do motivate our actions. I am a recently divorced woman and it is inspirational to know that younger men like yourself can see dating from both genders! Glad you found your soulmate and thanks for the message, it was helpful for me!
PJay says
No, there will just be some men sharing more than one woman. And the face-saving rhetoric you older women continue to manufacture will continue, but the audience that sees right through it will continue to grow.
chris says
Complaints about “there are no good men!” can easily be translated into
“everything is so damn expensive!”
Dating exists in a marketplace. In this market men offer value in exchange for women and women offer value in exchange for men. The point at which an exchange is made is called the price point.
What there is, is a shortage at the price point offered by women to men. That is, what women are offering to men, at their price point, is not of enough value for them to offer more in return. What we have is not a true shortage, it is a refusal to pay the true value. It is a refusal to pay the true price for what women want men to offer them.
The problem is not with men, the problem is with the women complaining being too poor.
Willowandy says
Well, simply put, there is tonnes if advice and in fact a whole little industry about how men should change to become more attractive to women.
ovaoffice says
Exactly.
Lalamusic58 says
Absolutely!
my regards from Canada
Alison says
Ah, Fun one.
I think Evan is quite right, fair or not!
Us fabulous, wonderful, sexy, and smart older women do need to learn to project oursleves in a more easy going manner.
We need to also examine our expectations AND our preferences.
Sadly statistics are NOT in aging women’s favor and so even MORE reason to learn to play more effectively and extend the playground. The keyword here is ‘play’ and being ‘playful’.
Even if older, that attitude will help us appear as youthful and fun. (and we will feel and benefit from that too)
Yes, our stage of life and what one is willing to embrace does effect the pool of possibilities.
As one’s children are out of the home, one could maybe date a younger man who does not wish children, as well as an older man whose children are also gone. Also at that stage one may be more ‘easy-going’ and relaxed as pressures lift and priorities change.
Christian Carter is a consultant to note, who speaks to what men want very clearly and understands a perspective of women. Like it or not, women should listen.
In fact a woman should listen carefully to what each of the men she dates say, and can question (lightly and playfully) to seek to understand. She can also ask for feedback from male friends.
That said, Suze is correct too. Many men want easy and simple – ‘seamless’.
Some are as deluded in their search as some women, not ready to realize that life itself is never seamless and it takes work to maintain and repair.
They may find simple in a younger woman (at first) but as she matures, or feels sercurer in a relationship, she may start making more ‘demands’ and set more limits too. Also circumstances may make things more complex and the skill set a woman has to deal with this may become more important.
ALL could benefit by examining preferences, willingness to flex, and to communicate better- in a more attentive and easy-going manner.
Suze is right- many women choose to divorce and stay single because many men ARE so difficult and inflexible, and not fun or easy-going (remember Girls just want to have fun too)
In the midst of so many work, family commitments, financial stressors- it is hard to be ‘easy-going’.
The trick is finding a way to center still, flirt, maintain openess.
Luck helps too. Also one’s skills at discrimination,
As Evan says- great to keep being out there and not mistake lack of success as a sign that it is impossible , or to justify a judgment of the pool of ALL men.
Sometimes we just don’t match up. C’est la vie.
And the ones that reject us to enter a relationship of drama with someone else- well those are ones we may not want anyway. Don’t be jealous. It may not be happy for those two- nor last.
I am 53 and 10 years post divorce, have at times felt hopeless, but have continued to be ‘out’ there, with my interests, with my family, online- wherever. It does take energy, creativity and means.
I have recently begun a very hopeful relationship with a man who is early in the divorce process. Could be an issue but I determined it was worth a go. We are both aware of the potential pitfalls.
So far we meet each others preferences and can match desires.
The best part is we BOTH are taking personal responsibilty, are seeking balance in our own lives, COMMITTED to FUN, and not expecting perfection. We are each committed to creating beauty in our lives with each other and others- regardless of what lasts or does not last.
Timing and luck has played a part in allowing this to unfold, willingness and grabbing opportunities another piece, and the rest has been the self-evaluation and growth we have undertaken before meeting. We are committed to continuing wherever it may lead.
No guarantees-
Best,
Alison
Also you may enjoy going to my blog and following links to some commentaries on Midlife dating, dating dilemmas, realistic or unrealistic preferences and expectations, how to manage being hot (or not) at 50, and when nice is not so nice.
You can also google the Amherst Bulletin on these topics.
and I highly suggest tango or other partner dancing to both sexes to develop better skills, awareness, and to maintain youthfulness.
Cat5 says
Why bother to do all that? According to John “Women have no value in the marketplace over a certain age and you have to adapt.” So what’s the point? 0 value times 1,000,000 changes still = 0 value/no value.
Sincerely,
An older woman with no value 🙂
Kevin Arnold says
Yep..its not rocket science ..but a simple biology from the evolution point of view..Guys like fertile women ; 1) symmetrical face… 2) long legs 3) large boobs 4) wide hips 5)Rosy lips …. High pitched voice ..why coz its a sign of Fertility!! and dat defines beauty…Women will be after 1)money 2) Bushy eyebrows ..3)low pitched voice 4) Height etc..Why? it denotes fertility and dat the offspring will be better served!! So we all r born with the primary instict..Reproduce and Reproduce !! Feminism will give u one thing !! 1) Sagging boobs 2) loneliness 3)Arrogancy and guys will run away!! coz guys like to dominate not to get dominated…..nd d time a women dominates a Man…the relationship is dead!! a Man without self-respect is of no Value…..Neither wud a women like a low self esteemed man…………….No Feminism, only Humanism
downtowngal says
You have to consider the big picture that you’re not going to click with every guy. I wonder how Joan has been going about meeting men other than online, and if this is her first foray into the dating world after being married.
Also, what kinds of track records do these men have? I’ve found a huge difference when dating men who are beyond a certain age and have been married or in LTR’s vs. those who have not – a certain maturity and realistic expectations when it comes to relationships.
If a guy can’t handle dating an emotionally balanced woman you wouldn’t want to be with someone like that anyway. It can seem daunting if you keep meeting these types of men but I believe there are good guys out there, just need to change your ways of meeting them beyong bars, online, etc.
And Evan, I don’t believe that women over 35 have their options limited – I know of many women into their 40’s who’ve ended up finding someone AND having children. I’m sure that some women have issues preventing them from having fulfilling relationships but I think that men who reject women because of their age generally don’t do so because they want children (as they claim), they’re really afraid of commitment and ‘being rushed’. I know of some of these men and they’re into their late 40’s and STILL single, still looking for that perfect woman who doesn’t exist, meanwhile dating psycho-chicks.
verbosity says
Wow, where to start? I must first comment that I have heard the term ’emotionally available’ (or unavailable) regarding men defined at least a dozen different ways by a like number of people of both sexes. It is an amorphous phrase with no specific meaning. I therefore do not know what Joan writes about.
Since most of the posts are from women, I’ll state things from my oh so humber male perspective. I write not to cast stones at the fairer sex, but to balance the viewpoints a bit.
One must realize that in the age brackets we discuss here (40+) most of the men (and women) have been through at least one divorce, long-term relationship, or other similar trauma. Of the divorces (btw, the divorce rate in Scottsdale, where I am, is approximately 70%), 70% of them are initiated by the women (can be independently verified). I am going to assume for sake of argument that the numbers are similar for non-marriage relationships also. What I’m getting at is that, in all likelihood (70%), a man had his marriage or most significant relationship ended by a woman. I’m not getting into questions of blame – that’s another discussion. Simply, she initiated the breakup.
So, men in the 40+ age range are more likely to be cautious in committing their hearts, minds, and assets to a realtionship.
I could not disagree with Suze more. She wrote “I think it is quite valid to point out that older women who have developed higher standards should put a plug on their nagging harpie tendencies–if indeed that is truly how they are coming across.” Developed higher standards? Is she so much better? Sorry to say, but these superioroty assumptions and entitlement mentality are why so many older men are reluctant to jump into relationships. No man should deal with any nagging harpie. The ‘nagging harpie’ usually surfaces after marriage and the legal commitment exists. But I digress….
Suze further wrote, “Here is the sad truth: more women, across the board, at all ages, are opting to be single because they do not like the quality of men out there.” See my comment on divorce, above. Women are opting to be single, particularly in the 40+ range after divorcing. They are ‘opting’ to discard the life they initially chose like an outdated outfit, particularly the men they initially chose.
It’s interesting. Suze thinks that men need to change further to suit women, it appears. My personal belief is that men should, for the most part, ignore chasing women. Instead, they should focus on their careers, friends and community. Women will seek them out.
Alison also writes thoughtfully on the subject of family pressures, children and the like. I would like to note that she also shares the same wrongheaded assumptions Suze possesses when she wrote, “Suze is right- many women choose to divorce and stay single because many men ARE so difficult and inflexible, and not fun or easy-going (remember Girls just want to have fun too).” Huh? Difficult and inflexible? I don’t want to parse words, but my general observation is that men in general do not change their personality over time. Perhaps she thinks she should change for her – a wrong belief….
Here is man’s perspective. Men like younger women. They are usually more fun, usually physically more attractive, less likely to have shrew-like harpie tendencies. After the aforementioned divorce or ended long term relationship, most men I have talked to just want something simple and to have fun. They often see their 20’s and 30’s as a waste of their youth and fun time due to their previously mentioned divorce, LTR. Now in their 40’s they prefer younger, simpler women.
However, Alison alludes to something powerful – “They may find simple in a younger woman (at first) but as she matures, or feels sercurer in a relationship, she may start making more ‘demands’ and set more limits too.” Why demand? What limits? Most men have experienced this, particularly ones who were married. What I’ve founds is that as soon as there is some tpye of significant entalglement (living together, joint bank account, marriage, etc…) women get more ‘secure’ and start making more demands, since for the man, extricating himself from the relationship is now messy, expensive, and difficult.
The above paragraph brings me to another point – ladies would be well-served to quit worrying about a man’s income, and assets so much. This is its own separate subject, but every time I or my friends meet a woman, the inquiry is always about my occupation and neighborhood, indirectly inquiring about my income. This is treated on other parts of this site, but it should be mentioned here. I bring this up to make the point that men have no qualms going for younger women, since all women, younger and older, look at him and his wallet. This is a generalization, but an accurate one.
Also, this is very non-PC, but so what? Men can afford to go after younger women also. Not monetarily speaking, but in this way – Men, as we age, generally get more distinguished and attractive (presuming we don’t go completely to pot) to a wider range of women older & younger. Our options increase. Women simply do not. Their options therefore reduce as men’s options increase.
Additionally, regarding men’s preferences – Men without children almost always do not want to date women with children. I will state this simply (and do to women I meet) – I do not want my dating and social life to revolve around someone else’s children and their soccer games, practices, after school activities and the like. I chose not to have children, value my freedom, and act accordingly.
One man’s perspective….
Susan Nercher says
And yet, those 40+ guys with the pot bellies and grey hair can still attract women if they are significantly successful. Men realize that as long as they have a decent career and make money, women will be interested in them. So why not go for a younger woman? Since women are more likely to file for divorce and break up relationships, why shouldn’t the men choose the younger women and enjoy their youth and beauty until the inevitable breakup?
Now you said that you are being trained to go with the younger men. Trained? You can’t make your own decisions? You want to date younger men, go ahead. But I suspect you don’t want to date younger men because you know that they don’t make that much money. You don’t want to provide for a younger man who doesn’t have the successful career and income status because if he did, he would go for a woman his own age and younger.
You mentioned the age of the man’s sperm. Well, if an older man wants to have children, he realizes that he would need a younger woman to have children with since he knows that the odds of two older people having children together are not as good and you need at least one younger parent to raise the children as both get older.
And just because a woman is older doesn’t mean that she will actually care for a man. Women are more likely to initiate breakups so that’s why men are going for the easier relationships with younger women – they want to enjoy what they can for as long as it will last.
Barb says
Men get more attractive as they age???!!! Sorry that is a total myth…from my experience women take way better care of their appearance and look much better…it’s that male ego that always thinks he look great….not….women will overlook that a man doesn’t look as great…if he is powerful, has money or is a great person…unfortunately men don’t overlook anything in older women even if they look way younger than him!
Susan Nercher says
It is not a TOTAL myth that men get more attractive as they age. Some do, some don’t in the same way that some women get more attractive and some don’t. A lot of men and women in their 50s and older do go to the gym and take care of themselves.
Plus, men are not the only ones with egos. A lot of women have egos too and think that they may be more desirable than they really are. Everyone needs to put their egos aside from time to time and assess their flaws and weaknesses. Sorry, but your experience is not everyone’s experience.
And men overlook a lot in relationships with women. It is women who are more likely to file for divorce. That shows that women don’t overlook what men do as you claim.
Abby says
lol, no dears, men DO NOT become more attractive as they age. Maybe Justin Bieber did but he’s still in his early 20s. Men become less attractive to me and I am in my late 20s. The only thing that would make me go out with someone 10 years older is his income. It better be over 6 figures and he still has to be somewhat attractive. Sorry, I’m still young and hot. I have standards.
Serl says
And an older man with a high income may want a prettier, younger woman than you are with a high income as well. Sorry, but many older men have standards too.
AllHeart81 says
Serl – desiring a younger, prettier partner has nothing to do with ‘standards’. Alot of men do infact pick their partners based on looks and then 3-5 years down the road, they wonder why they don’t get a long with this person or possibly don’t even like them.
Just as a woman picking a man with a lot of money is also not about ‘standards’. THat’s like the opposite of ‘standards’.
Core says
Lol, older men and older women may not meet YOUR standards of attraction. But I admire people who are older, successful, confident and fit. It’s the whole package, not just one feature. And people who have the whole package may not necessarily find you to be a suitable mate if all you have to offer is being young and hot. Sorry, but many others have standards.
Core says
AllHeart81 – Standards are whatever people set them out to be. When it comes to choosing a mate, a person can set whatever standards she or he pleases even those standards may not be reasonable or realistic.
Jim says
If a man takes care of himself and a woman takes care of herself the man will look better as they age. We will not include land whales of either gender in the aforementioned statement.
Peter K says
I agree with you- To answer her question . They (the Men) are where you left them in her 20’s. By the time we reach 30, as men we no longer think off women as special or shiny in anyway shape or form. Infact to males reading this. DONT marry there are no benefits to your own health working and doing everything for a female. Its so cot worth it. Most women who are 20 30 today, dont even know how too cook, you know like real food, in my marrige i have to do that as well, along with everything that comes with a house, inside and out. WHY would any male want this….for what…dont you like having friends? Well guess what women don’t have any real friends, they dont know how to be friends with other girls. So what happens is that YOU loose your close group of friends, because you feel bad leaving her alone by her self on the couch. Also women GET SO FAT, when they get married, do you know why…. because moving is a task for most women. Its a chore. Its easier to make fat acceptance a thing then to move for most married women. Sure they work, but they can’t manage money… and never do any maintenance AT ALL, you will not only fix your car, but you will have to fix hers, and even do things that her hands should be doing like vacuuming it. I guess what im saying is dont get married, what is in it for you? Nothing, and 70% of women end up cheating in the marriage at some point look it up. 70% of domestic VIOLENCE is committed by the female, that’s right there is a hidden Harvard study that you can see for your self. Also she will only be having sex with you until you get married, it turns out women 70% of them are not into sex because they want it, they use it as a reward for BS like getting a coffee. She does not have the 17X testosterone you do, she is not consistently producing semen sperm, and does not need the realize you do. 1 in 6 children does not belong to the father the women lied to get married, that is a fact. In fact its so common, there is like 6 TV shows on HDTV daily like maury and THE TEST. So dont get married, and DONT sign any BIRTH CERTIFICATES until you have a DNA TEST with the mother. Unless you want to be a patsy. Women are not special, take that vag off the pedestal, I dont need to tell you this, by 30 we all get to the same lousy conclusion.
Chelsea says
With all due respect, most men I know have not gotten “more distinguished and attractive” as they’ve become older. I do know of quite a few who have developed baldness, erectile disfunction, joint problems, and fat bellies. I don’t mean to offend, but it’s just reality. And yes, there are some older men who have aged better than other men.
That is a phrase started by older men many years ago, and maybe by younger women going after their money without making the men feel so taken advantage of.
Hadley Paige says
I am reminded of the quote “Men marry women and hope they don’t change. Women marry men and hope they do”.
just my thoughts... says
Verbosity, “emotionally unavailable” generally means not able to commit emotionally to a relationship, whether someone wants to or not.
Just because most relationships/marriages are ended by women (according to the stats you cite) doesn’t mean that the relationship was a good one. Some women end relationships because men are not willing or able to take it to the next level – i.e. dating exclusively or marriage. Other times it’s because the marriages weren’t good ones and despite all the counselling it’s not working, often times it’s the man who’s unwilling to change enough to focus on his relationship with his wife.
If a guy wants to be with a ‘younger simpler’ (naive?) woman to try to relive his 30’s that he lost being married, that’s not the guy who’s looking for a serious mature relationship IMHO.
There are a number of men who haven’t even been married and haven’t a clue how to treat a woman respectfully. I think these are the guys Joan is referring to.
Susan Nercher says
@ just my thoughts…
“Men are not willing to take the relationship to the next level.” What does that mean? What is the next level and who decided what the next level should be? What if a man talked that way and told his wife/girlfriend that she needs to go to the next level? Women seem to create these standards and levels and expect men to live up to them but hate it when it is the other way around. Also, too many women treat personal relationships as they treat their careers – they expect “promotions” after a certain period of time. Personal relationships should be nurtured and respected, not treated as some type of commercial transaction.
In my humble opinion, I think that too many women spend years turning down committed relationships with good men to pursue the bad, sexy men or to work on their careers and then when they get to a certain age, they expect the good men to be available for them. And when they do find these good men, they place unreasonable demands on them and when the men can’t or won’t meet these demands (because who really can meet them), they break up the relationship.
Too many women don’t know how to treat men respectfully. They see men as a resource to be available for them at their beck and call and when the resource doesn’t produce the benefits they think they are entitled to any more, they dispose of it.
And just because a woman is older doesn’t mean that she is mature and ready for a serious, mature relationship; in fact, she is probably desperate IMHO.
Furthermore, so what if a number of men have never been married? Why is that considered some kind of achievement especially in light of the high divorce rates? I think a lot of women prefer to marry a man who is divorced because it is proof that he will be a sucker again since he was a sucker before. But a man who never married? Well, the women realize that he probably won’t be a sucker since he has experienced freedom for a longer period of time. Besides, a lot of woman have never married either. Why don’t you criticize them as well?
A serious, mature relationship is one in which both nurture, love, respect and sacrifice for each other. A one-sided relationship where a woman expects a man to meet her needs and not the other way around has become too common and more men are realizing that. So they opt for easier relationships. Why not? Why be in a relationship that will legally end and take a good chunk of your income and assets? Why have children with someone when they will take away those children from you? If entering into a relationship means winding up in poverty and broken families, why bother entering into that relationship?
Peter K says
As a male i think just like this guy obove me, Its like he is wirtting everything,(really well by the way) that I would be writting too ALONG with 20 of my best friends, who are male as well. Its a fact of life, women step on average nice guys to find the most violent mentally unstable kind they can find, (who is similar to them in every way mentally) The kind of guy she wants to “fix”. Then what that doesn’t work out, over and over and over, at the time that she hits 30, she tries to settle down with anyone who will take her sloppy used up self, before her clock runs out. This is why 70% of young men are not married. WE really are on Strike, decades of being mistreated will do that. SO good luck working for your self. Because the normal good guys dont care to be the 30th penis in you, that is gross, sooo amazingly stretched out and gross. whats that saying….”Why marry the cow when you can get the milk on tinder. ” Or something
AllHeart81 says
70% of young men aren’t married because they have their own deep seeded issues within themselves and with women. Anyone who refers to a woman as “sloppy used up self” does not exactly hold the maturity to see women as fully actualized human beings who are as imperfect as men can be.
And if you actually really understood anything about the female anatomy the vagina does not get ‘stretched out’ based on how many sex partners any one female has had. The way you talk about women reveals your personal lack of maturity and it doesn’t exactly sound very ‘nice’ even though you lay claim to being a ‘nice guy’.
Tiffany says
I’m reading all these comments and there is a chunk of single guys who seem hopeful for a nice single gal, a portion of frustrated older women who won’t evaluate themselves and a fair amount of bitter and angry guys who are the exact reason I’m so shy with dating.
I do try to evaluate myself. Make sure I work on my appearance and career and attitude! It’s hard, it’s work so I forgive men and women who can’t do it right away. Don’t give up hope in yourselves or finding someone nice.
All the same though, a core issue with me and dating seems to be entitlement. I’m a woman in mid 20s, work hard to be fit, and am working towards a career that I love. *I’m* told so much to watch my entitlement and standards cause my value lowers as I age (ugh, would you say that to my face on a date?) But men don’t seem to have to watch their entitlement. I can’t date guys who just play video games all day. And expects barbie dolls. Partly because I’ve overcome a slight addiction to them myself.
I’m fine with a guy making only a little money to get by. I prefer fellow artists of any variety. 🙂 Yes, I am pretty by society’s standards. But since it takes exercise and hair care to be that way- I’m alright with an average looking guy.
Finding someone with who’s flaws I can live with. Got it. Entitlement, bitterness and blame right off bat? No thanks.
I have hope that there is kindness in all your hearts and I will meet the right partner someday. I hope you can do the same.
lol says
Yeah ok “Susan”
Susan Nercher says
Yeah, thanks for that in-depth, well-reasoned response, lol. LOL.
downtowngal says
Verbosity, the kind of guy you describe sounds like someone who doesn’t want the emotional responsibility of being in a serious relationship.
True, you can’t change someone’s values or personality quirks. But that’s different than being willing to compromise on certain things, like $$, household chores, etc. If you think that’s what makes someone ‘demanding’ or nagging then there’s a bigger issue here.
Susan Nercher says
Unfortunately, too many women feel they are entitled to the $$ and have someone else do the household chores. They want a man with a high-status career who earns the big money and then come home and do the chores as well even if they are stay-at-home wives. Women have realized that they can’t be superwomen so they expect men to be supermen.
verbosity says
downtowgal, I don’t wish to write a lengthy response. However, I am afraid the context in which I describe the kind of guy appears to be missing from your comment. The salient point I made was that a man, 40-ish, is exactly less likely to jump into a serious relationship. This is so due to some of the factors I stated (see above). Generally, one is reluctant to place their hand on a stove once it has already been burned.
I do not mean this to sound flippant, but I have no idea what that phrase “emotional responsibility” means. It helps to know what that phrase truly means, particularly when used as an ad hominem attack instead of facts, as it is used here.
Regarding money, demands and compromises…my opinion is that men should never, ever commingle money (or loan, or borrow from, etc) with a woman. Why would a woman care how much a man made unless she thought she would benefit from it in some way? By not commingling money (even if married), a potential area of conflict is solved. Further, since women can do the same jobs and earn the same (actually more than) as men for the same work, they should not care one bit what a man makes.
What I think I’m trying to convey regarding the ‘demanding’ issues specifically, is a ceaselesss focus on the faults of guys. We’re not talking about forgetting to take the trash out occasionally. We’re talking about actually telling him on occasion the good things he is/does. Too often it appears the woman’s compromise (in her eyes at least) is even being with the guy at all. Not a good relationship point of view…
Suze says
Verbosity–I don’t know what era you are from but women are less likely to get into relationships these days. It’s at a 50% level and it’s by choice. Wake up.
Men don’t have leverage on this. You don’t seem to get it.
I think women’s lib turned men into a bunch of angry squalling infants.
I partly blame the whole feminist shift for that…but the end result is that most single men are emotionally crippled and well…not appealing.
I’ve always been this kinda bitchy though…so I won’t pin it on age. I am just super fussy and when I meet the right guy, that’s that.
And quite frankly, the normal healthy guys are generally married (and stay married) by age 35. So you’ve got some mighty slim pickings.
All that means is that it’s going to take longer–and requires patience
So ladies, be patient, and know that a good thing is worth holding for.
Women in their 40s are probably better off with men in their 50s and up. Just make them work hard for your love. That’s all. 🙂
Mike Nike says
SUZE “Women in their 40s are probably better off with men in their 50s and up. Just make them work hard for your love. That’s all.”
Yes SUZE, make that man work hard for your love. Ummm….Love should be given freely. Any males here see the entitlement? This is in almost every woman. Its outrageous the self entitlement. Why don’t you try working hard for his love? OMG….now they will come out swinging. How dare you suggest a women make an effort for a man. A man is supposed to work hard for the women’s love, and change, and be treated like dirt, and how much do you make again? Hmmm…let me think. No sorry. Ya you ladies are oh so appealing. HAHAHA. Single, Mingling, and loving it.
Chelsea says
Mike, that is not the opinion of almost every woman, just because Suze said it. That’s generalizing.
Maybe Suze meant that if the women in their 40s are settling for older men in their 50s, the men are going to have to work harder because these women are not too attracted to them physically ????
Suze says
By the way, you really have to wonder about a guy who comes onto a woman’s dating advice board and starts harping and nagging and getting all hostile and defensive.
Kinda makes my point, doesn’t it?
Mike Nike says
Its called posting an opinion Suze. Yes men have those and no they don’ t need your permission.
Mike Nike says
Evan MarcKatz is a man Suze. Wrong again.
verbosity says
Suze, just to be clear–this is a blog run by a man who gives dating advice to both sexes. Before you engage in an ad hominem attack not on the subject matter, you should first be correct on the basis for your attack (not a women’s dating board only).
Further, Rather than have a rational discussion and a logical disagreement regarding the posted subject with some basis in fact, none was unfortunately posted. I have no idea what you mean by “It’s at a 50% level and it’s by choice.” What exactly is at a 50% level. Divorces? Or the gender initiating divorces? Or something else?
Actually, sorry to rain on your diatribe with some fact, but the divorce rate in AZ is 65% for 2005 (see cdc.gov). CA, the 800 pound gorilla in terms of population (and who do not report divorce stats to Census), is very high:
Year, CA Div.,L.A. Div.,CA Mar.,Divorce %
1996 169,416 38,026 219,039 77.35%
1997 165,547 37,501 237,669 69.65%
1998 161,905 35,706 194,108 83.41%
2000 156,078 36,551 196,896 79.27%
2001 154,672 38,850 224,241 68.98%
2002 160,854 40,468 217,880 73.83%
2003 148,511 38,811 194,914 76.19%
Average Divorce Rate: 75.54%** (Reference: Court Statistics Reports for 1996-2004.)
To be fair, many other states are below 50%….TX, for example, has gone from 47% in ’03 to 43% in ’05. based upon this information, it think it fair to assume the overall divorce rate exceeds 50%, eepecially when the rate of 2nd & 3rd marriages far exceeds 50%.
Of this over 50% divorce rate, women do initiate approximately 70% of all divorces. See Discovery Health, AARP. The whys are irrelevant for this point at least.
The point, you ask? Simple. Many older men, likely having gone through a divorce (and by proxy, a split of a long term relationship) they likly did not initiate, are understandably reluctant to get into another relationship. To ignore this reality is foolish.
I do not understand what Suze menas by “Men don’t have leverage on this.” What is ‘this?’ Many men do not understand they have absolute leverage, particularly as they get a bit older and more established. See above for further explanation, which also refutes Suze’s comment of “Women in their 40s are probably better off with men in their 50s and up.”
There is no merit in addressing or even characterizing The rest of Suze’s comments. They unfortunately speak volumes by themselves…
Melina says
I don’t mean do add fuel to all that’s been said…but as a lawyer I can tell you: Anyone can pull up statistic with internet and conjure up some very “scientific conclusion (but totally teinted on the person owns perspective on the subject)”. Like the saying goes..” 99.6% of people knows that”. (joke)
So really…using divorce statistic rate to make a point about man “absolute leverage” as so nicely said by Verbosity, it’s not only biased on perhaps his own perspective/or views on the “bad women who actually leaves mans – either divorce or end of LTR” but also look down on women who are in their 40’s because clearly…as said before :”Men, as we age, generally get more distinguished and attractive (presuming we don’t go completely to pot) to a wider range of women older & younger. Our options increase. Women simply do not. Their options therefore reduce as men’s options increase.”. This is not only a presumption and very condescending but also it created a double standard about women’s worth in the dating game. It’s my opinion that this is not a fact…but clearly again, like Evan nicely said, ” a type of false thinking that doesn’t lead to anything positive.”
I personally believe that womens over 40’s are of equal worth against man in the dating game. We as womens do get more distinguished, confident and also more wise about what’s really important as we aged.
Maybe mens want “simple”…Sadly, I agree on that. But I’m kind slightly disappointed in womans older then myself…Women wiser and into their 40’s….I mean as a women over 40’s you have to think about this for second. At this stage, you have probably raised children successfully, they’re grown and have their own life, you might have been through divorce or a failed relationship (who dumped who here or statistic is so not relevant ), you been around the “stage” of dating long enough to know a few hidden tricks going on behind the curtains and you also have on the other hand, possibly LTR or a marriage during a number of year and also lead /or still lead a very stimulating career. I’m not trying to play the feminist card or anything like that. But my question is :With clearly the value of life’s experiences that womens over 40’s possess why not wonder : why are some mens over 40 singles? It’s just a thought…There might be something there!
Ok,the mens over 40 or even men under that age group in fact, may want “simple”, “easy come and easy go” type of attitude or “fun “…The truth as i see it, It’s true!! Fun, simple and quietly breezy is great!!! But clearly not in the long run. Let’s face it and be honest about this, life doesn’t cut it for “simple” and “take it easy” attitude always. I think that It might be quite a change from life’s demanding nature to have “simple” for a while, but “simple” just don’t last in the long run. I might also add and it’s only my legal point of view but…some marriage might have failed because after a few years and a lot of unresolved issues on both parts…”simple” is the way to do things, nothing gets solved and things then fall apart. We tend to put things underneath the surface just to keep the peace or the harmony in the relationship. What happens to “commitment” ?? (see “commitment” : when you are willing to give your time and energy to something that you believe in, or a promise or firm decision to do something (Cambridge dict.))
My point is exactly this : as we get older we want someone to be there for all of it not just the “simple stuff” but even the heavier-unexpected-stuff that are bounds to come down the road. “Simple” doesn’t really last, “simple” is gone out the door the minute a bump in the road comes along. That’s telling it like it is. Womens shouldn’t put their judgment aside and try to be “all is breezy” and “let’s not think to much it might scare the poor fella away”. They should in the beginning of a relationship be able to let loose and enjoy the moment, be able to “take it easy”, it’s nice for a while. But I personally think that a really “distinguished man” who have any life’s experiences and some backbone will no doubts embrace and appreciate a women who can be “the deep and wiser” women that the women over 40 is, and put the breezy “fun and simple” on the side.
I also have to say to men…Simple is fun for anyone, under or over 40, sure “simple” makes very good dating in the short term but it’s not what makes it in the long term. The problem might be that, as we do with other subjects…we don’t wanna see the tough truth behind things, it’s either better to blame the person in front of us or simpler to be in denial…
Also, I might be overly idealistic about it or us as womens..but ladies I can only say this : you should believe in things that “empower” the essence of who you are as a women and as a person. Not the “simple” version of it that leaves us with a sense limitation about our worth.
I might be younger, i might even be able to still act the “simple carefree naive way” from times to times that mens seem so fonds of…but I already know from life experiences that “simple” doesn’t make it in the end. I believe that for a true LTR, strong, authentic, distinguished mens with character go for womens who possess the qualities they possess themselves. A strong, authentic and distinguished women with character who surely can “take it easy” and be up for some “smooth sailing without excess complications”….but not for a women who define herself or let mens define her as “simple”.
P.s. I also need to add that i think that it’s for the same reason younger man are now considering dating womens older than them or in their 40’s …simply because womens in their 40’s know what they want, they have character and depth…because that’s so much more than “simple”. It’s way better;)
As a younger women, I would really appreciate comments from womens older than I am about my opinion stated in my post. Thanks you in advance.
Nota bene…I know there is more than one error in grammar, verbs, etc…Just be nice and understanding please 🙂 Thanks!
Susan Nercher says
@Melina
Yes, everyone wants someone who will help you with the heavy-lifting as you both grow older, but that is becoming more and more rare. You seem to think that marriage means a lifetime commitment. It hasn’t meant that for decades. Nowadays, marriage means a claim to someone else’s assets and income after a divorce. Divorce among the elderly has skyrocketed as well. Google grey divorce.
Women keep discussing marriage in terms of what it should be. But they are the first to end marriage when they feel they are not getting out of it what they should. So men are realizing, why bother in the first place?
“With clearly the value of life’s experiences that womens over 40”²s possess why not wonder : why are some mens over 40 singles? It’s just a thought…There might be something there!”
Perhaps the reason why there are a lot of men over 4o who are still single is because of their life experiences? Their parents are divorced, their uncles and aunts are divorced, their friends, neighbors and co-workers are divorced. Furthermore, they may have suffered through some painful breakups as well. And of course, they witness the misery that couples who are still together go through. That’s why they choose not to marry.
Roy says
“I personally believe that womens over 40’s are of equal worth against man in the dating game. We as womens do get more distinguished, confident and also more wise about what’s really important as we aged. ”
==========================================
Well bully for you Melina, but it doesn’t mean anything in the real world – your whole post seems to be wishful thinking – unfortunately it’s going totally against biology and is just not realistic.
Chelsea says
Biology has rules for men as well. Nature wants men to be infertile as they get older, by making them impotent, to reduce “older father” illnesses passed to their children.
Some older men are sought after by younger women interested in their money. But younger women and older women are not blind and are more attracted to younger males, more muscle, more hair, thicker skin, more sexual, etc.
Basically, why reduce men or women to pieces of meat, though?
Relationships are about love between two unique human beings.
Jim says
Women hold the cards when they are young, men when they are older. What is so hard to understand? ( generally speaking)
Patti says
I for one am sick of all the “self-help” people telling women they have to change to please men. Why? Why do we have to put up with dishonesty, not calling, game playing and cheating and then be “fun and easy going” (i.e., ignore/forgive their bad behavior.). Smart women have trouble dating because we see through – and won’t put up with – a man’s lies and bad behavior. We call them on it and it makes men uncomfortable when they get caught in their lies. Also, being smart women ourselves, we’re not that enamoured or impressed with their accomplishments because we’re equally accomplished. When you think about it, with the creation of sperm in the laboratories, test tube babies and electric jar openers – men will be obsolete in a few years anyway – just keep them around for the sex (well, we don’t really need them for that either……) and go out with your fabulous girlfriends!
Crystal says
I’m recently divorced and in my 40s never having children. Yes, I am with Patti that we are at a point in our lives where we have gained wisdom and enough confidence in ourselves that we are done playing to men’s deception, cheating and lies. We women are the instigators of most of the divorces described in comments above because we don’t want to stay in a marriage that we thought was great, full of love, great everything even the sex and to wake up one day to find that the husband lies and cheats. It is sad the the feminist movement has turned the role of men from being our champion warriors to stubborn children who wont grow up. It’s even more sad for us women who have grown up and are very attractive, loving, fun, and want that non nagging easy relationship and now only have the choice of settling 1. For a man 15 + years her age or 2. No LTR ever and being alone for the rest of her life. Boy, we Gen X women seem to be out of luck.
Mike Nike says
51 percent of Men and 49 percent of Women have admitted to cheating. This isn’t a Male phenomenon it’s a Human Phenomenon.
Steve says
I find it interesting how you speak of “…men’s deception, cheating and lies.” Women are guilty as well. Women will tell a man she’s independent and successful, but expect him to pay for dinner. She’ll spend hours in front of a mirror attempting to make herself look younger, sexier or more attractive. She’ll tell a man she loves him until he is no longer useful to her purposes. The feminist movement didn’t turn men into stubborn children. It simply woke men up to the fact that most women view a man as a warm body useful only to fill a role until they’re no longer needed, at which point they can be discarded, (after she takes the kids, the house, the family dog, his retirement and a substantial portion of his future earnings.) Time for a reality check. Men are sick of being used. I’d rather stay single than ever subject myself to a toxic, entitled, “independent” woman of any age. It has literally taken years for me to rebuild my own financial security and emotional “availability” sufficiently post-divorce to even consider dating again. Fortunately, there are still some women my age who don’t act like spoiled children. Oh, and by the way I was married twice. Both times she was the one who cheated. Next you’ll tell me it was my fault because I didn’t show enough affection…? Every toxic woman I have the misfortune to go out on a date with takes me one step closer to eternal bachelorhood. I don’t know, maybe that’s why so many of you ladies are having a hard time finding a “good” man? Could it be because when a man reaches his forties he gains enough wisdom to stop being a sucker? Honestly, I don’t know your personal life history. Maybe you were used too. But being used in a relationship is not reserved for the ladies. It cuts both ways, trust me. And thanks to the feminist movement, women now have the ability to out earn a man if sufficiently ambitious, while still retaining the “entitlement” to his financial support even post-breakup or post-divorce. The potential rewards of marriage for men are dwindling sharply while the risks are increasing exponentially.
Veronika says
Steve, I believe that you should seriously consider what kind of women you have choosen from the milions of availible single women. You are probably attracted to these bad women. There are many trully nice women out there who would not be able to do so much harm because of their conscience.
Susan Nercher says
Everyone has to change when entering relationships. Why? It’s called reality and maturity. When you become a spouse and a parent you have to change. Too many women seem to think that a husband and children are mere additions to their own lives instead of accepting the reality that marriage and children are about creating new lives. If you are as smart as you claim to be, you would know that. And women don’t lie? Sure. That’s why men are refusing to marry – they caught women in their lies and bad behavior. Who wants a woman who has slept her way through most of the town and refuses to change for a personal relationship? What kind of wife and mother would she make? Will she refuse to change for her children too? Smart men are not impressed with the self-delusion, self-entitlement and other personality disorders that too many women possess.
And by the way with egg donors, paid surrogate mothers and eventually, artificial wombs and the creation of eggs, women will be obsolete too. And more men realize that they don’t need women for sex either. Porn, toys and dolls are fine for many men. So go out with your girlfriends and talk about how you don’t need men while your girlfriends talk about you behind your back!
Antisusan says
Susan, you’re a very angry man, calm down….
Susan Nercher says
Antisusan, you post a hostile screen name (e.g., Antisusan) and then tell me that I am angry and need to calm down? How long have you been seething at me? If you are this angry at the comments I post, I suggest you seek help. No sane person should be this angry at comments posted on a blog.
GC says
You are so right. I always tell my friends it’s better to break your own heart and walk away then stay and let them do it daily. I read that’s somewhere and it stuck. It’s really not that hard. You cross my boundaries, manipulate, and disrespect me? Beat it.
mev says
Patti you are right on the money. Believe me, I understand the differences in the sexes- men are visual, driven by their animalistic urges and trillions of sperm, yada, yada, yada. Hey, as a very well-educated woman who is 41 and mighty proud of it, and extensively well-read I too can come up with any statistic, fact, anecdote, etc to challenge someone such as Verbosity (I know it scares ya, hon). And, according to all the self-help gurus a true man desires a woman with confidence, intelligence, money of her own and experience. And, again these same gurus (such as Evan-sorry bud) state that you must trust your instincts, not be a doormat, not to settle for less than your worth; yet, by the same token this same woman should discard all that advice if she is over 40 because she is too thoughtful, not light (uh, do you mean I have a brain) and unwilling to compromise on her core values. Maybe, it’s because she does not have to because she has the wherewithall, knowledge, self-acceptance and insight not to accept anything less than what she feels she deserves. Isn’t this what the dating gurus “harp” to us single women? So the question remains if this is what a true man needs then why would he want someone “simple”? Are men really this base? Are they so low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs??? And, why is no one mentioning that contrary to Verbosity’s viewpoint, many men over 40 do NOT look more “distinguished.” Unless he’s Sean Connery. In fact, the most classy, elegant women I know are over 40 and look unbelievable. And, thank goodness there are images today of women over 40 who are absolutely beautiful-and here’s the kicker-inside and out. Think Halle Berry, Nicole Kidman, Teri Hatcher and the list goes on. Nothing can substitute for experience, knowledge and a life well lived. I sincerely believe that simple, free and easy are being euphemistically substituted for naive, stupid and passive. And, to which, I am positive no honest good man would desire in his life.
Mike Nike says
“And, according to all the self-help gurus a true man desires a woman with confidence, intelligence, money of her own and experience.”
Only Women have lists. Men just turn their heads and think “Whoa, who the hell is that.”
Lucey D says
I’m pretty sure you don’t speak for your entire gender , many of whom would feel insulted that you have reduced them to shallow creatures who only need a woman to turn their head. I hate to break it to you but women want a man to turn their head just as much. It’s called attraction and chemistry is the basis for everything INITIALLY. But we are talking about dating, and meaningful relationships, and there has to be something beyond looks for it to last.
Susan Nercher says
And I am pretty sure you don’t speak for your entire gender since you clearly hate men but still expect them to fulfill your desires. I hate to break it to you but real men don’t want some bitter, self-entitled, frustrated women. It’s called love, compassion and nurturing. And you will never find it with that attitude.
AAORK says
Only Women have lists. Men just turn their heads and think “Whoa, who the hell is that.”
While swimming along within this deep estrogen ocean full of myopic and solipsistic female commentators, a nice bit of comic relief (and the funniest comment here today).
Mike Nike says
Yes, all men know about ” The List.” I saw an ad on an online dating site and I swear to you this one woman had a list of 53 qualities and traits she wanted in a man. I wrote her and said you do realize with a list like that you are going to die alone. She wrote back and asked if that would scare a guy off? I said no, it won’t scare a guy off. It will scare all of them off.
Susan Nercher says
So when a woman over 40 has never married, it’s because she refuses to compromise on her core values. But when a man over 40 has never married, he is immature?
It appears that too many women are low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Who wants a person who is nothing more than a bundle of needs? People want someone who is self-actualized or at the top of the hierarchy. I sincerely believe that complicated, restrictive and difficult are being displayed as maturity and experience when they clearly are not. If you are difficult, it’s because you are not happy with your experience and the way you lived your life and you want to take out your misery on others.
And women don’t go after men over 40 because they are distinguished – they go after them because they are rich. They claim that men who go for younger women are shallow but refuse to accept that women who go after older men are shallow gold-diggers.
Won’t accept less that what you feel you deserve? Okay, but what do you feel you deserve? The best man? Well, maybe you are less than what he feels he deserves. You see? You don’t consider the other side. That’s why so many women fail at relationships.
Abby says
I don’t know about the other two, but Halle Berry is batshit crazy. So not beautiful on the inside.
Sindee says
Whew…..
Well Melina, why not pull the feminist card.
As a 40 something year old woman, raised in an era of equal opportunity and strong women as a role model, I have supported two husbands at the sucessful peak of their careers only to be divorced and replaced with younger women so the men could shoulder the glory as their own. Both – now addicts of one sort or another and less successful.
Still, I maintained hope and belief in my intellect, well kept my body, and hoped to share a good life with a good man.
I have concluded, that the opinionated data found on the internet and consumer psychology supports the “BackLash Theory” . The one thing which was overlooked by the men behind the theory is the backlash on the backlash.
Now, women have harnessed their sexual power and demand careers – as the corporate ladder is replaced by golden poles at gentlemen clubs – $4,000 a week can be garnished from their new found power.
Young girls go out with old guys because they buy “bling bling”, or clothing, etc. Cheaper than the marriage contract of splitting your pension 50/50 – sooner or later – the women will wise up and start to teach their offspring.
I have my own personal spin on this. To those older women out there who understand the old double standard game. Recognize the bottom line is this. You can hook up for a one night stand and get sex. Look on Craigslist. You can also spend lot of money (did you know that on average a woman spends $65,000 coloring her hair over her lifetime?) trying to stay young and beautiful. But – as you trade in the tight abs for a steel mind – you recognize the joke has been played on you.
My real bottom line is this. For what? A bunch of fat old men who are basically pedaphiles? Who wish to bolster their flaccid egos with imagery and spend hard earned moments for a 5 minute finale?
I have lost respect for the majority of men out there. Fortunately for me, this frees a great deal of my time and energy for myself. I can’t really see spending time finding “one of the few good guys left”. I also know, if I want a hot sexual tryst – I can find it. In fact, the sex trade industry flaunts the new fad in Kenya – hot young studs for older women. Frankly, I don’t think that two wrongs make a right. The backlash on the backlash is that sex has been irretrievably damaged an taken out of the equation of love. Women are deemed assets with short term shelve lives. Youth has a high trading value. As a society we have become whorish.
Shallow men are a turn-off. So – I’m judgmental. Old Fat Men chasing young girls are juvenille. Men in big cars imply big disappointment.
I spoke today to a 48 year old who was telling me about his disappointment in a 28 year old he was dating. He ended it when she demanded his credit card and joint signatures. LOL –
Bottom line. Take a long hard look at what’s paid off. Intelligent Women in their 40’s see the light. Men can’t get over on them.
All of the subliminal and overt manipulation of consumer advertisements (propaganda) has screwed up a very basic element of life that makes it healthy and loving for both men and women.
Too bad for all the old fat loser men who are chasing young girls. You are too foolish to see your game of power has you defined as loser – right along with the older women you seek to disempower.
This gal has found new joys and if I want hot sex – I know where to find it. So old guys – keep your power & hope your pretty little theives will take care of you when you are old and grey.
Maybe that is the femist card. If so – proud to carry it.
Some guy says
Your “feminist card” is clear to see without you declaring it, the shaming tactics you employ are all that’s required.
Simply put it should be readily aparent to all with unfettered eyes that, women enjoy greater attention levels prior to the age of 30>35, then men enjoy their day in the sun (with increased levels of attention.)
Lucey D says
Wrong. Hot young men still get much more attention than old fat guys with a wallet. She might use you for your money but she’s going to go f*ck the young virile pool guy.
Susan Nercher says
Wrong. Fat guys with wallets get more young women. When you have money, it’s easier to get f*cked. That’s why men shouldn’t marry because the wife will just use her for his money. So the old, fat guys should just use the young women for their beauty.
Mike Nike says
Congratulations on being single and enjoying it.
Lucey D says
Congratulations to you as well.
Susan Nercher says
“As a 40 something year old woman, raised in an era of equal opportunity and strong women as a role model, I have supported two husbands at the sucessful peak of their careers only to be divorced and replaced with younger women so the men could shoulder the glory as their own. Both — now addicts of one sort or another and less successful.”
Well, if that’s true, now you kind of know what men have been going through for years – except they have had it worse. Men have been supporting women who divorce them, take the kids and the money, and then raise the kids to become unsuccessful and even criminals. Study after study show that single mothers are more likely to raise children who grow up to become criminals and addicts. If that is the feminist card – you should burn it.
hunter says
…ladies….I am sorry men have’nt turned out to be what you expected……..
Mike Nike says
HAHA. Funniest post today.
verbosity says
Reading reading the above comments certainly fascinates. Evan’s right in that both sexes are to blame. Rationalizing the superiority of your position and/or refusing to see another’s point of view is precisely heart of Evan’s point. That said, I feel I must share some observations.
Melina, in everyday life, people use statistics and measures in order to make decisions. No one claims the conclusions are ‘scientific.’ However the issue is whether the conclusions are reasonable based upon the available information. You offer no contradictory information to challenge the reasonableness of the assertion (that men are cautious about entering into a serious relationship after divorce or LTR), just an ad hominem attack on me with no basis in fact. I provided the statistical cites. As an attorney, you should know this is not persuasive argument to a court.
What I find amusing and disheartening about Melina’s post (and similar ones), is a complete disregard for my point that “many older men, likely having gone through a divorce (and by proxy, a split of a long term relationship) they likly did not initiate, are understandably reluctant to get into another relationship.” Is it really so hard to understand or more importantly, to feel empathy for this point? I would submit such understanding is vital to communication, and therefore, vital to a successful, mature relationship. The absence of such understanding in these posts is telling.
What I also find fascinating is that several posters seem to think that Evan is lying when he says they want ‘simple.’ He wrote an intelligent explanation regarding what he meant by it, specifically taking care to mean it did not include ‘brainless chimps.’ I would submit that ignoring this point does nothing further to enhance understanding between the sexes, and is quite disrespectful.
Also, my impression of the ad hominem personal attacks on me for stating an admittedly politically incorrect perspective (based in fact) is that there are an awful lot of angry women out there, for there is no reason to personally attack someone for stating a contrary opinion. I can only guess that those posters who have engaged in such ad hominem attacks are angry I have contradicted or indirectly challenged their paradigm of the male-female interaction. I would further submit that expending such anger in hardening one’s defenses proves counter-productive to establishing healthy relationships with the opposite sex.
Hunter said it so well above….
Lyall Taylor says
Suzi, nobody is trying to say that men are perfect, or lay all the blame squarely on women’s shoulders. But men are tired of being told that things are always their fault, and rightly or wrongly, for any women trying to improve their relationship status or find that someone special, that attitiude will be of absolutely no help.
You say the following:
“Have you noticed in this exchange that women’s behavior/demeanor etc is being put to blame here, and men are being let off scott free?
The underlying message in the commentary here is that women are the ones who need to change their flawed behavior.
Here is the sad truth: more women, across the board, at all ages, are opting to be single because they do not like the quality of men out there.
the numbers are going to continue to grow until men elect to examine their own behavior and not put the responsibility of change squarely on women.”
All this presumes that women are faultless and men are the ones who need to change – you are basically doing exactly what you accuse men of doing in this discussion. THis attitude is exactly why MEN are also choosing not to enter into relationships, and also have extreme difficulty finding the types of women they are looking for.
We simply do not like being with women who always presume we are at fault and we need to change. The presumption is always that men need to change to accommodate a women’s relationship needs and a man’s needs are almost always considered largely irrelevant (even if only unconsciously). Mens needs, desires, aspirations etc are so unappreciated that often women do not even realise that they exist independently of her needs.
The reality of the situation is very simple. Men simply want women who are physically attractive and sensual, who like them for who they, are who aren’t always complaining/trying to change them. That’s all. Hadley Page has even noted that the phyically attractive bit takes backseat to being fun/easy going.
And the reality is that those traits ARE difficult to find. And it is constructive advice to women that if you are that way, you will increase your relationship success. Assuming that women are already perfect and don’t need to change will not increase relationship success.
Lucey D says
Women want the same thing… a fun, easy going guy who doesn’t project all of his relationship failures on to us. Men play too many games based on assumptions and that’s why women get defensive. You get what you give.
Susan Nercher says
You claim that you get what you give. Well, maybe you play too many games based on assumptions and that’s why the men get defensive. You don’t seem like a fun, easy going girl who doesn’t project all of your relationship failures on men. So those are the types of men you get.
Buck25 says
“You get what you give”
And you, my dear, have just summed up why it is that so many women aren’t getting what they want from men (as evidenced by all the female whining, bitching and moaning about men on this blog). I’ve read women’s online dating profiles by the thousand, and young or old, they have one thing in common- a long list of non-negotiable demands, combined with a list of travel and career “achievements” that 99% of men could not care less about. Most of you try to sell us what we”re not interested in, but show no interest in giving us what we really want-a soft place to land when we come home, a little empathy, and the feeling of being valued for what we are, instead of being nagged and criticized for everything we are not. You want a champion and a hero? Then treat a man like he is one, at least to you. Treat us like we’re a trained lapdog, to be beaten into submission, and you’ll get that too…until we get tired of jumping through your hoops, and decide to bite you, instead of sitting up and begging for the bone we never get.
Richwhoknowsall says
Wow dude, that to me was really appropot! I seem to get a lot of female attention and I tend to look for unavailable women (those leaving town shortly, not a real option etc.) So that circumstance can dictate the time length because I allways feel like I am the one having to fit some unrealistic standard of behavior and I never get what I want in return, except from women who seem to believe they are lower on the totem poll socially or sexual market value from me.
Honestly if women want to land a good dude, ALL THEY NEED TO DO IS ACT IN THEIR NURTURING, MORE SUBMISSIVE NATURE AND NOT LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT.
Every couple I know where the girl is supporting, feminine, sensitive and loving and respectful is SUPER happy, both him and her and has healthy families.
Men should stop trying to be women and women should stop trying to be men.
Lyall Taylor says
Patti – you say the following:
“I for one am sick of all the “self-help” people telling women they have to change to please men. Why? Why do we have to put up with dishonesty, not calling, game playing and cheating and then be “fun and easy going” (i.e., ignore/forgive their bad behavior.). Smart women have trouble dating because we see through – and won’t put up with – a man’s lies and bad behavior. We call them on it and it makes men uncomfortable when they get caught in their lies. Also, being smart women ourselves, we’re not that enamoured or impressed with their accomplishments because we’re equally accomplished. When you think about it, with the creation of sperm in the laboratories, test tube babies and electric jar openers – men will be obsolete in a few years anyway – just keep them around for the sex (well, we don’t really need them for that either……) and go out with your fabulous girlfriends!”
Lets just think about this a little bit. Women can also be dishonest. Women also often don’t call. Women most definitely also play games. And women also cheat.
Yet it is only men who are to blame and women shouldn’t have to ‘put up with mens bad behaviour’. Are women ever accountable when they behave in a similar way?
And to say men are essentially obsolete – this is an incredibly offensive statement to make. It’s worse than a man saying “we only need women for sex, and now that we have prostitutes and pornography, women for relationships is essentially a waste of time”. Can you imagine the wrath a comment like that would attract.
It is these attitudes that men find so unattractive. We are tired of always being wrong. If a man cheats, he is a dog. If a women cheats, he must not have been attending to her needs. Do you not think that a man cheating might also have had something to do with whether the women was being attentive to his needs?
If a man asks a women to change at all, then he is being selfish and putting all the blame squarely on women. If women criticise men’s behaviour, and he doesn’t change, then men are being insensitive and selfish and women will “choose not to get into relationships until men clean up there act”.
I really find all this quite upsetting and I think I can speak for many men in saying that we can’t understand what we ever did to deserve to be treated this way.
MJ says
Often times it’s the things men DIDN’T do that make women resentful and upset.
Hadley Paige says
Patti wrote “… being smart women ourselves, we’re not that enamoured or impressed with their [men] accomplishments because we’re equally accomplished.”
Patti’s world view is representative of why I ( and many other men) feel that “successful ” women are not good material for successful marriages. Yes, they are fun to date & bed and are “fabulous”. But they are not that impressed with us (so it is likely that a marriage won’t work out). Since many men feel that marriage is a crap shoot they can’t win if divorce occurs we tend to take women who, among other important traits, ARE “enamoured or impressed” with our accomplishments.
Mike Nike says
My advice to men everywhere is just find suitable sex partners and leave it at that.
Lucey D says
Are you a troll? Every comment you make is worse than the other. Go buy your whores and be done. No one is stopping you.
Susan Nercher says
Exactly. Marriage is nothing but a series of financial transactions that benefit women at the expense of men. Why bother?
Evan Marc Katz says
16 comments on one blog post? Maybe you should find another blog to haunt?
Sylvia says
Thanks a lot for that, Evan. – Sylvia, whose blog you linked to and who would like no more haunting from “Susan Nercher,” thank you.
Truth says
By the way, Evan, did Sylvia mention that “someone” posted on Sylvia’s blog that Susan Nercher should be gruesomely killed and Sylvia didn’t seem too concerned about it? Sylvia left that threatening comment on her blog for a year. And when Susan Nercher finally told Sylvia about it, Sylvia just asked if Susan was bored and then banned Susan. Is that considered to be a haunting?
m says
“But they are not that impressed with us (so it is likely that a marriage won’t work out). Since many men feel that marriage is a crap shoot they can’t win if divorce occurs we tend to take women who, among other important traits, ARE “enamoured or impressed” with our accomplishments.”
Men crack me up sometimes.
What if your “accomplishments” just AREN’T THAT IMPRESSIVE?
That just seems to occur to so few of you. Like Lake Wobegon, where “all the men are above average”.
Sheesh.
Susan Nercher says
Guess what, maybe your accomplishments just AREN’T THAT IMPRESSIVE either. A man with impressive accomplishments wouldn’t want you so don’t be so picky.
hunter says
…..a shortage of men? Physically speaking, a shortage of men?……..I have heard that saying the entire half a century that I have been on this planet………who knows, maybe, it will happen….
Mike Nike says
The shortage only exists because of unrealistic expectations. I asked a girl what her ideal guy was and she told me … well educated, income over 100 thousand a year, so on and so forth and at the time her income was 1200 a month. But she was incredible hot though I will give her that but she expected men to pay for that beauty. She wouldn’t give it away for some stupid reason like love or anything.
verbosity says
I just love reading M’s post. It is completely devoid of rational, logical, respectful discussion. It seeks only to insult men in general, and contributes nothing to the discussion. In fact, it seems to reinforce the logical, rational, thoughtful points made in this thread.
And to add something to Lyall Taylor’s posts, I would respectfully disagree with him. Men do need to change. Men do need to realize, truly realize, that they are in the driver’s seat regarding the opposite sex. They should focus on their careers, health (physical AND mental), family and friends. Women will therefore seek them out, like the original poster.
Hadley Paige says
In response to the observation that perhaps men seek out women for LTRs that are impressed with their accomplishments, M writes: “Men crack me up sometimes. What if your “accomplishments” just AREN’T THAT IMPRESSIVE?”
For you M, perhaps most mens accomplishments are not that impressive. Consequently you have a challenge before you relationshipwise. But regardless of how unimpressive you find any particular male, there is a pool of women who will likely be content with that level of accomplishment. Hence back to the original point that “successful” women have a challenge meeting suitable (does that really mean impressive???) men.
hunter says
yes, to lyall taylor,….in case you haven’t heard,… men do have to admit they are wrong,….. if they want to get laid….it comes down to this, do we want to get laid, or do we want to be right?….
verbosity says
Haha, hunter. You are unfortunately correct for the vast majority of situations.
I still keep coming back to the concept that men in general (women also), should spend more time on themselves pursuing career success (whatever that means to your chosen career), physical and MENTAL health, and a family/friend life balance. In short, they should seek to be balanced, happy people. Members of the opposite sex will therefore seek them out as standouts from the rest of available options.
Just chasing tail only seems a recipe for disaster.
hunter says
to Verbosity,
…a recipe for disaster.” I agree with that,yet, many single men are “clueless.” I am not for constant chasing, but, I am all for raising the level of conscience awareness…making men(and some women) aware of the “dating code.”
Susan Nercher says
Single men are not clueless. They know what the deal is when it comes to women and they don’t want it. For example, you speak of the “dating code.” What is that? Your list of demands and preferences that men have to fulfill? The problems is, women want men to behave according to their “dating code” but refuse to behave according to the basic tenets of human kindness. Women don’t want to change for men, but they issue codes, rules and standards that men must follow. No wonder so many men are saying “no, thank you.”
Lucey D says
Wrong. It’s that the basic human code of respect, consideration and kindness is being largely ignored by men and instead being replaced with games of deceit, emotional dishonesty and unavailability.
Susan Nercher says
Wrong. Radical feminism violated the basic human code of respect, consideration and kindness and replaced it with propaganda, hatred, deceit, manipulation, dishonesty, mistrust, misandry, perversion and even violence. Society is paying the price for that. Single mothers are more likely to raise criminals and over 100 million Americans have a sexually transmitted disease. Men have brought the human race from the primitive stages to affluent, technologically-advanced societies only to be brought down by radical feminists who can’t function without the welfare state.
Sam says
“Men do need to change. Men do need to realize, truly realize, that they are in the driver’s seat regarding the opposite sex. They should focus on their careers, health (physical AND mental), family and friends. Women will therefore seek them out, like the original poster.”
Come on, there’s so much overlap. A good looking woman is going to have more options than an ordinary looking guy. A woman with a good career is going to have more options than a guy with an unimpressive one. Etc etc.
Women in their 20s have more options than men in their 20s. As we age a male advantage develops, but IMO, there’s parity while we’re in our thirties.
verbosity says
Hunter, I agree completely.
I do not understand Sam’s post. He/She (Samantha?) wrote, “Come on, there’s so much overlap. A good looking woman is going to have more options than an ordinary looking guy. A woman with a good career is going to have more options than a guy with an unimpressive one. Etc etc. Women in their 20s have more options than men in their 20s. As we age a male advantage develops, but IMO, there’s parity while we’re in our thirties.”
There is nothing inconsistent with what I wrote. Sam’s comments are loaded and general and some are the subject of other threads. I will address a few of the general points he made. Let me first say that there is an underlying assumption to my comments – that men desire a good, healthy (physically and mentally) match for them for the long term, not just some hot piece of tail. That said, women in their 20’s likely do have more dating options than men in their 20’s, generally speaking (particularly if they are good-looking). My belief is that women in general are more likely to choose men who make and/or have significantly more money. So women in their 20’s have the option of men in their 20’s, 30’s 40’s & up.
Money is not the only reason for these additional options in their 20’s. Further, I would submit that truly healthy women in their 20’s are not placing inordinate importance on money. Money and dating are the subject of other threads on this site and explore it more fully.
It’s true that good looking women have more options ordinary looking guys. No kidding. That’s comparing apples and oranges. Women, good-looking and ordinary-looking, have more options for dating.
We can look at the flip side of all of Sam’s assertions (women with better careers have more options than men with unimpressive careers) (as opposed to men with great careers and women who do not have good ones), but the point of my post is that men should focus on their own lives to become good, successful, healthy and balanced. They will not only attract more women that way, but they will attract more women better suited to them that way. I submit they will also be far better suited to choose a good, healthy match for themselves. I think this rings true through all age ranges.
Sam says
Verbosity,
Thanks for commenting. I was merely qualifying what you said about men being in the driver’s seat. I think that how in control of a relationship you are depends on what your other options are, and how many options you have depends on your looks, brains, career, and age. If you have other options you don’t need to chase someone who isn’t that into you.
There probably are more instances (like 40+ dating) where the man has more options, but there are almost as many where the woman has more. I certainly don’t feel advantaged in my relationships at all. Most of the time I’m the one doing the chasing.
verbosity says
Sam,
Thank you for clarifying where you are coming from. I think we see each other’s point. Based upon your comments, I guess you to be in your mid to late 20’s (please don’t confirm or deny if you wish). I think you are correct that women in their 20’s have more options….Being in my mid-30’s, I have dated women ages 23-42 in the last 12 months. The point being that the women in their 20’s have more options of guys in their 20’s – 40’s (usually).
One cannot ignore this reality. However, my point is this…have you ever noticed you find it easier to meet and attract women when you don’t think about it? Like when you spend more time and energy at work or other hobbies and not just work and seek women? I submit it is at these times, where you lead a more balanced life, that you maximize your options. What I guess you desire is that you wish to maximize your options to women in their 20’s. However, beyond that, I suspect you’d like to maximize your options to GOOD (for you) women in this age bracket. Of course you have to do some chasing… after all, men almost always have to initiate action (women’s lib be damned!).
But realize that life and dating is a race. It isn’t a 100 meter sprint. It’s a marathon. You may not feel advantaged in your relationships now, but as you spend more time on work, friends, hobbies, etc. (ie. – yourself). I submit the more comfortable you are with these major aspects of your life, you will feel more advantaged and in control of your relationships. I’ve found it helps to be more at peace with myself before being with another.
I hope this post doesn’t condescend. I simply desire to make sure my communication is clear.
hunter says
…somehow I think relationships are more about information/being consciously aware of what you are doing….
Paul says
We need our women back…
I just got done reading every post on here. I found that the women seem to be very angry and really could not come back with much that made sense at all. If you look into the faces of all the women driving home from work, at, lets say arund 6:00 at night, what you’ll see is a deep sadness. It’s not what they truely want or are made for. If you look back in the last 50-60 years and ask yourself who has changed the most, it would have to be women due to the womens movement and womens liberation. I don’t think there can be much argument there. It has had unplanned consequesces and devastating effects to our society, as evidenced by the lady commenters on this thread, kids not coming home to a mother in the house, etc. Do you think it is an accident that the divorce rate, which held for decades at about 20 %, skyrocketed to almost 75% during the same period? So who probably needs to change the most? Hmmm…women maybe? I can’t imagine going out with some of the women who attacked the men posters here…yek! No leverage? What a joke…we have all the leverage we want. These women are exactly the cause of the problem in my opinion (and that is all this is btw…my opinion…you DO NOT have to agree with it). Guys after all, are really pretty simple and easy to please. We don’t want much, but ladies, harmony in the household is something we do need. Verbosity is correct. Your opinions? Sure, we’ll listen, and need them, but guess what…father does know best usually. Your independance? Where does it say that women are supposed to be independant? It is just the other way around actually…we are all supposed to be interdependant and we’re made for relationship. Men have been imbued with the leadership responsibilities in this world. That is as it should be. Women just don’t seem to want to admit that as a woman ages, lots of them tend to get more grumpy, temperamental, judgemental and just plain sour. Who wants that? We have gotten so far away from the biblical model for husbands and wives (on both sides to be fair), as politically incorrect as it is, but it must be remembered that women were made FROM the man, and made FOR the man to be his helpmate…it is not the other way around. Just to be clear on that…we lead, you follow. You want your man to be more responsible, then help him to be that way. Yopu want him to be a better leader? Then help him to be that way. The fact is, we need you, can’t get along without you, don’t want to. But we need you back the way you were meant to be…not the way you are now. Sure there will be women who point out that there have been men that have abused our God given authority, and there have been, no doubt. But I think a lot of that is simply our tendancy to jump to the opposite conclusion. There have been many, many more that haven’t. On the other side of the coin, I think we need more men like Verbosity who are not afraid to make a point, however unpopular…I think we need more REAL men out there who show true gentle leadership, responsibility taking, control taking and who know how and when to take command of a situation in life. We are the ones who handle things – to protect and provide. If you want to say I must be living in another decade, that’s fine…those were much happier days back then frankly. Men were men and women were women. Now what we have is women becoming more like men, and men becoming more like women! When it says we are to treat women as to the weaker vessel, what it means is we are to treat women like a fine china cup. Men, we are to love our women, and women, you are to respect your men…and both are unconditional!
Good reads are “Love and Respect” and “Wild at Heart”.
Thanks,
I hope I’ve ruffled some feathers.
Crystal says
Paul, thank you for this post. i totally agree. I’m a 40 something woman who has a good career and been raised by a single very feminist mother who maybe taught me too much independence. since college I have always questioned the feminist movement and the simultaneous increase of broken families. with the economy the way it is I’m not sure that we could ever go back but there has to be someway that our behavior can come to a conclusion where men can again be our protectors, our champions, our world which women admire and will do anything for. For us women, we need to allow our vulnerability and light to come out and be that women who supports, adores and is there for her man 100%. Then the woman is that beautiful jewel that a man will cherish forever.
Lucey D says
The solution is NOT to revert to the oppression of women. Male dominance and control is a thing of the past and the “sadness” you see is women’s frustrations that their basic human rights are still largely ignored by men who want to put them right back in the cave man days.
Jamie says
Wow, Paul.
I am a parent. I have a great job. I was ordained when I was 26 years old. I have my doctorate. I drive home with a smile on my face -but sometimes I work at home -still smiling. I earn much more than my spouse -we get along great! I know I am one of the most blessed people on the planet. I was on the phone today with TIAA-Cref updating my retirement profile -good things there. There are so many good, good things I wouldn’t trade for anything. I know I would not be where I am without Jesus on my side! I also am a woman. I’m glad you did not have a say in my life. I hope it continues to be the case.
Best,
Jamie
verbosity says
How many “I’s” did Jamie just use in personally bashing Paul? I respectfully submit that these posts remain about the subject matter at hand (Where Are Emot. Avail., Mentally Healthy Men), rather than personal insults levied against the posters.
I happen to disagree with the thrust of Paul’s post. However, there is a way to disagree without being disagreeable while keeping to the subject matter at hand, not the person posting it.
Jamie says
In response to the bash from verbosity… “I” was using a literary technique in illustrating a point in using myself as the example. A very common technique. Ok, maybe it would have been better had “I” been used once with a lot of commas….(???) -but “I” used in consecutive fashion is a way to… I’m not going to explain writing style.
Anyway, “I” posted my POV as all of us -which is inherently personal. The entire notion of a post is personal -such as with your last post, verbosity. [Which I find joyfully hypocritical]. This isn’t BBC news or CNN. Thank you.
I am supposing silence (even with the written word) is the better response here.
Best to you,
Jamie
verbosity says
Jamie,
Your supposition silence is better is incorrect, and I am joyfully not hypocritical. Your ‘literary technique’ had one end goal – to belittle Paul, verbal niceties aside. My little comment about the use of I’s was simply a literary device to draw attention to the fact you personally attacked Paul (“I’m glad you did not have a say in my life. I hope it continues to be the case.”). If you feel that way, fine. Send it to Paul directly, outside of this public forum. Most importantly, it did absolutely nothing to add to the thread’s subject matter.
By all means, share your POV on the issue of emotionally available, mentally healthy men. However, i submit sending broadsides Paul’s way regarding your life is unrelated to the subject matter of emotionally available, mentally healthy men.
Posts are personal and so are the opinions expressed in them. However, there is a difference between disagreeing with a person’s opinion and taking a verbal shot at them, not their opinion. I do not know if you can discern the difference.
My basic point is you were blatantly disrespectful to Paul. Further, You mentioned that Jesus was on your side. I wonder what He would say about treating someone else in that manner, particularly when Paul said nothing provocative to you directly. Please do not throw the hypocrite label at me.
Curiously CNN and BBC receive criticisms from many areas their news reporting is colored by their political opinions, but I digress..
verbosity says
In regards to Paul’s posting, I see his points. However, I respectfully disagree with him. We need our women back? Those horses left the corral.
If I read his post correctly, he would like women to change to a more traditional, Bible-oriented approach to life. (Paul, feel free to correct this paraphrase). The problem with this approach is that it is near-impossible to change someone else’s behavior, particularly when that someone else has little to no incentive to change.
So why bother worrying about what women do? Lyall Taylor had an interesting point – “And to say men are essentially obsolete – this is an incredibly offensive statement to make. It’s worse than a man saying “we only need women for sex, and now that we have prostitutes and pornography, women for relationships is essentially a waste of time”. Can you imagine the wrath a comment like that would attract.”
I say don’t worry about what women do. You cannot change their behavior, only your own. Spend time on YOUR career, men, YOUR friends, YOUR hobbies/interests, YOUR physical and mental health. And, much like the cat who wants to be petted by the only person in the room ignoring it, they will come.
If there is a common thread among many comments by ladies throughout this topic and the topics that deal with $ and dating/relationships, it is that they want men who are secure emotionally and monetarily. I submit that by focusing your energies as stated in the preceding paragraph, men not only become that, but they will also be in a position to better choose women that are emotionally healthy, not primarily focused on men’s earnings, non-harpies, etc., and attract more of them.
I believe only in focusing on their own lives in this way can they realistically change these issues.
Julz says
In regards to Paul’s comment about guys being “easy to please” what a load of crap! Men want to have sex whenever they want and then they end up falling asleep afterwards because it’s not their fault. Poor boys! They want a girl they can show off to their mates to boost their own ego and self esteem. They want their meals cooked to their liking, things perfect at home without them lifting a finger to help. They want to be able to watch sports, hang out with the boys, drink beer, look at other women to see what’s out there. Ugly guys still want perfect girls but they have lost the mirror to check themselves out. Women will like a guy regardless of his looks if there is something to attract them but a guy is usually only attracted to a women’s looks and that’s why the attraction on his part fails. They don’t care what a woman says just what sexual favours she can perform in the bedroom and if she is hot enough to show his mates. That’s why so many great women are single.
hunter says
to julz,
I agree with you, there should be more info written, for men, on “attraction”…
verbosity says
Julz is soooooooooo right. That is the perfect description all men. They are 100% responsible.
I usually refrain from sarcasm, but cannot help it…
Julz says
Verbosity, I am not saying men are 100% reponsible. I am being serious so I don’t appreciate the sarcasm towards my response. Men need to realise that their actions have consequences just like ours do. If your hearts not in it don’t lead a girl on to believe he wants the same thing. You try to talk about feelings but the guy closes up so you don’t really know where you stand. I chose to stay with a guy who in the end couldn’t commit to an adult relationship which involved meeting friends and family. I take responsibility for that. I don’t take back the rest of the stuff I said about what men want.
mrs. vee says
Paul said, “I found that the women seem to be very angry and really could not come back with much that made sense at all. If you look into the faces of all the women driving home from work, at, lets say arund 6:00 at night, what you’ll see is a deep sadness.”
Paul, I am a working woman, successful, happily married. Mr. Vee and I equally respect and admire one another. I love my life.
In your mind, is something wrong with this picture?
Paul says
Mrs. Vee,
Absolutly not. If you read proverbs 31, “The Wife of Noble Character”, God clearly says the wife works, or at least does something to bring in income. In a way, she too provides – “She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vinyard. She sets about her work vigorously, her arms are strong for the task. She see’s that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.” I don’t think though God had careers for women in mind when he wrote that. A womans husband and family should be her “career”. In proper alignment, the wife is under the husbands umbrella of protection. Just as it goes that first there is God, then Jesus is submissive to Him, the husband is submissive to Jesus. Then the wife is in submission to the husband…he has authority over her and in the house. He is the head of the household. That is the way God wants it to be…that is not my idea by any stretch of the imagination! “She watches over the affairs of her household.’ Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.” The income is just to suppliment the family.
Much of what I say in my earlier post that has got so much attention is straight from the bible. Woman are made from man (ie. the rib) and for man (to be his “helpmate” – not slave!) because God knew it was not good for man to be alone and that we needed each other. It does not demean or belittle women in any way. In fact just the opposite. It holds them up. I love women and respect women. And I think it is great when a women comes out and says she and her husband admire each other.
I run a relationship small group, all based on biblical principles. After two divorces, I said to myself this was not going to happen again, so I turned to the bible and several Christian relationship books to find out what does work in relationships. All I can tell you is if you guys could see a marriage work like God says it should, you’d be amazed how happy you can be. Ever since the womens movement, the roles that God set forth have been skewed. And that is not good and that is why there are so many problems in relationships these days.
“A wife of noble character, who can find. She is worth far more than rubies.” A men.
verbosity says
I don’t pretend to speak for Paul, but I think I can safely say that the main thrust of Paul’s comments, as quoted by Mrs Vee, is that many of the responses from women are angry, ad hominem attacks without much by way of refutation. I think he expressed a frustration I share – that Paul and other male posters have posted thoughtful responses from the male perspective why there are fewer emotionally available, mentally healthy men, and some in response to why many men date women younger than their contemporaries.
However, instead of refuting Paul’s points (which I have done) or many other men’s posts (including mine re: reasons and context within which men make dating decisions), I must note that there have been little, if any refuting posts to many of the aforementioned men’s points. Lyall Taylor (post 22) wrote a great post that was thoughtful. I noted above that there has been little to refute these points and that ad hominem attacks on myself and other posters seem to be the main order of response from most women.
As I wrote above, is it really so hard to understand or more importantly, to feel empathy for men’s points? I would submit such understanding is vital to communication, and therefore, vital to a successful, mature relationship. The absence of such understanding in these posts is telling, which is why I suggested additional things men can do (instead of hoping women change), above. Ignoring the valid points made, often with statistics and articles to support the points, attacking the messenger instead, is disrespectful.
In regards to Julz’s comments and response, I was admittedly sarcastic. The reason I posted the sarcastic line was to point out that she painted ALL men with the same overly broad brush. Additionally, I would further note all she paints the same sexist, stereotypical of all men that does nothing to further better communication.
Please bear in mind that any man san state, as Julz did, that all women are gold digging, attention whoring, shoe-addicted, Juicy Couture wearing, fake french manicure having, emotionally needy, too much makeup wearing, lazy slobs who want nothing more than to sit home on their backsides while their men pay for their shopping, lunches with girls, while they cackle about how much they spend, how little they do, and how much it’ll cost him to leave (assuming marriage). FYI – notice how I left sex out? See how that does nothing to further the discussion? One can refute what I just wrote in this paragraph and what Julz wrote in so many ways, that it simply is not worth the time or effort to do so in any way.
Additionally, I understand Julz may be upset with my use of sarcasm, However, I respectfully point out that both of her posts provide absolutely no basis for discussion, but conclusory statements about how all men are bad and/or wrong. I understand that she may feel frustration, but the picture she paints does not represent reality.
angelique says
verbosity…
so I guess, to you, quoting the Bible like Paul does is a non-objectionable basis for logical argument, but ad hominem attacks (which you are evidently vigilant for) are grounds for dismissing a person’s point of view?
i don’t get you.
everybody’s got their own arbitrary set of rules of engagement, and you’re no exception.
pardon me if you perceive my observations to be “ad hominem attack”.
Julz says
Verbosity, I am not getting into a slanging match with you. I have read through your comments and you do make a few valid points. I didn’t intend to paint all men in the same way. I admit it did sound that way reading it over. I was actually talking about the men I have experience with. I can only comment on those men. I am aware that not all men are the same and when I get into a relationship with a guy I do not judge them on my past experiences. I understand that both people are responsible for the success or failure of a relationship. I never said men are 100% responsible.
As far as my posts making no basis for discussion that is harsh. This is a forum for people to air their views, frustrations, personal stories, etc. I appreciate the support I get from others in the same situation and listen to those who have a different point of view. However, I do not appreciate a personal attack. Good luck!
verbosity says
julz,
Well, I certainly do not think my post was a personal attack at you. For definition’s sake, I consider a personal attack to be something long the lines of what Suze write about me in post 13 -” By the way, you really have to wonder about a guy who comes onto a woman’s dating advice board and starts harping and nagging and getting all hostile and defensive. Kinda makes my point, doesn’t it?”
You can see where a comment like the one above attacks the person it was directed to (me) without discussing the subject matter. An example of a personal attack is to say, for example, “Julz is a bitter woman” – something I did not do at all. I took pains in my remarks about your statements to limit the remarks to your statements and their implications, not you personally. I understand you may think I overstated my points, and I respect that. I am glad, however, you see my point about over-generalizations.
I am sensitive to the fact you shared your experiences as a basis for discussion and appreciate it. My constructive criticism is that you made entirely conclusory statements, all of them the worst of men. An analogy is that I came on here and posted “All women are bitches.” Without any background facts or stories, it is difficult, if not impossible to adequately comment. As they say there are 2 sides to every story. I appreciate the fact you may not like what I said or how I said it. However, I think if you read my comments again you will agree that I limited my critique to the content of your words, not of you or your character.
I understand you and many others view this is a forum for people to air their views, frustrations, personal stories, etc. I agree, but would like to add that I also view it as a forum for people to clarify and critique others’ statements, including factual and logical omissions, with the goal of understanding differing views. In other words, I do not view it as a rant board (not to say you did that).
That said, I am sorry if your experience with men is as you’ve described. I wish you the best of luck and do look forward to further discussions.
Selena says
Ladies,
Why are you bothering? Haven’t you noticed Verbosity is systematically posting the same thing (cutting and pasting!) on this blog thread by thread? Any criticism is perceived as an ad hominem attack. I don’t know about you, but this is getting waaay old for me.
verbosity says
Angelique,
I do not have arbitrary rules of engagement at all, contrary to what it appears you think. I will say that procedurally, my issue is where others do not respond to the contents or implication of comments, but about the commentator, as you have done.
If a goal of this forum is to have a healthy debate about the male/female condition, posting insults about others posters while ignoring their comments does nothing to further the debate. It merely coarsens, cheapens the debate, and shows great disrespect for everyone else, particularly the targets of the comments. I mentioned Suze’s comment about me in post 13 as an example -” By the way, you really have to wonder about a guy who comes onto a woman’s dating advice board and starts harping and nagging and getting all hostile and defensive. Kinda makes my point, doesn’t it?”
Angelique, there is nothing in these ‘attack the messenger’ tactics that advance the debate. For example, if I point out that women initiate 70% of divorces as a reason men are hesitant to commit and you call me a bitter whiner, you (A) do not respond to my point and (B) attack me personally in the process. I trust you understand this distinction.
I also think you misread my posting regarding Paul’s comments. Paul has stated his Biblical approach to man and women as a basis for his viewpoint. As I mentioned above, I don’t think the model applies now. I therefore submit your comment (” . . . so I guess, to you, quoting the Bible like Paul does is a non-objectionable basis for logical argument . . .”) is wrong.
Also, for your reference, your posting questioning me, implying I am arbitrary is the very definition of an ad hominem attack. It does nothing to advance the debate, but seeks to harm the messenger.
verbosity says
Selena,
I am not going to post a lengthy reply. Suffice it to say, I have found the main debate tactic here to simply attack me, not to respond to anything I say, the vast majority of which is supported by statistics and surveys.
Curious how no one, including you, has responded to the content. If it gets waaaay old for you, then I respectfully suggest you add something constructive.
Selena says
Two words Verbose. Ho Hum.
angelique says
I’d like to second your ho hum, Selena. You’re so right. I was hesitant to even bother with him.
As as long as it’s clear that silence is not acceptance of verbosity’s remedial Rhetoric 101 tactics, of which, he’s only perfected the whiny “Ow, you’ve ad hominemed me!” maneuver, I’m satisfied.
mrs. vee says
You know, I used to be a walking doormat, letting men make any observation they wanted to about me. But no more. Today I would draw the line at being on the receiving end of a slur as grave as “arbitrary”. Once, Mr. Vee called me “mercurial”, and I just about called up my divorce lawyer!
I read in The Times that ad hominem attacks now only trail behind heart disease and car crashes as the nation’s leading killers (although the CDC has recently added tautologies and straw men to its “watch list”).
😉
verbosity says
Funny how no one still responds to the content. Typical.
Evan Marc Katz says
Please stop fighting, kids. Your father’s trying to sleep.
sheseizereason says
verbosity: “Funny how no one still responds to the content. Typical.”
A guy walks into a bar wearing a gorilla suit and wants to talk about the upcoming election, but no one wants to discuss that subject with him. They just want to talk about his gorilla suit.
Typical.
Paul says
Goodness Gracious!
Not one of the women who have responded on here, especially to Verbose and maybe even me, have come back with anything remotely resembling logical reasoning. You gals sound like your about 14 years old! Where have all the emotionally availablle men gone? They are running like heck from all the emotionally immature women like you, that’s where! Get a grip girls! Just because you were stupid enough to be doormats, doesn’t give you license to take it out on everybody and launch verbal attacks just because you don’t agree with their reasoning or opinions! Verbose is right…you simply attack the messanger, which means any argument you might have can’t stand up to scrutiny! No wonder why you’ve had problems. And why is a happily married woman, who respects and admires her husband doing on an advice from a single dating experts blog anyway? Ya, that’s respect alright. Verbose is right, you aren’t going to change behavior…I’m looking for someone who doesn’t need it!
Julz says
Are we going to get spanked?
faded jade says
Only if you are one of his PAYING coaching clients 😉
sheseizereason says
Paul:“Just because you were stupid enough to be doormats…”
Congratulations on your superb point-missing abilities.
verbosity says
Lovely….all variants on the same thing. Attack the messenger and insult him/her. At least sheseziereason is cleverer about it. Also, I would like to respectfully point out that Paul has also engaged in an ad hominem attack above, which I do not condone as respectful discourse. I will not engage in that. Simply, I will continue to discuss the thread’s subject and point out where people’s opinions may or may not have logical flaws (including my own), and to draw attention to instances where people do not discuss the subject, but attack posters instead. Such attacks do nothing to advance or discuss the subject matter.
I believe Paul is correct in one instance – attacking me, him or other posters without responding to the points he, I or other posters make indicates such attackers have no argument that may withstand scrutiny.
hunter says
to Paul,
I believe you wrote, “….have come back with anything remotely resembling logical reasoning”…..I have news for you,.. did you know that the male mind is limited by logic?……..Men bifercate, his thoughts go either to the left or to the right. A female, will go left and right….hhmmhhh, just writing this makes me smile…
hunter says
to verbosity,
….according to research, 2/3 of all females, are looking for financial stability, and “1/3” for sensual and sexual. Whereas, 2/3 of all men, are looking for sexual and sensual, and, 1/3 for financial gain.
30% of females looking for sensual, that is a good portion…….
Paul says
Hunter, the male mind is NOT limited by logic. That’s really kinda limiting to say that. Tell that to a lawyer or computer guy. Men tend to be more logical and women tend to be more emotional, but we need both in this world. As for your other post, women are wired to seek security. Do they look at a potential mates earning potential? They’s be stupid not to be. No woman wants to be romanced by a buffoon, and no woman wants to wake up 20 years later only to realize she married a guy who is going no-where. If it wasn’t for their want for security, we guys would largely be at the same level we were when we were in our early teens. In the book “Millionaire Minds” (same people that did “The Millionaire Next Door), they found that of all the people who achieved wealth, 98% of them were married or had a partner when they achieved their wealth. That means that only 2% did it alone. Behind every good man there is a better women to be sure. A good woman makes a good man a better man.
Paul says
Also Hunter…marriage counselors did a 20 year study…they asked every couple who came to them to list their top 5 most important relational values…universally, men listed sexual fulfillment as the number one most important value, and universally, sex wasn’t even in womens top 5!
male or female... says
quoting the Bible is NOT a logical basis to support any argument.
verbosity says
male or female….
I respectfully disagree with that assertion. We may or may not agree with much of the Bible’s contents. However, many millions of men and women have successfully lived according to their roles set forth in the Bible for 2 thousand years. That doesn’t mean the roles as set forth in the Bible are illogical. Also, many have been unsuccessful. One cannot ignore this also. I believe that such a blanket dismissal is therefore not applicable. Would you care to explain how it is not logical?
Lucey D says
Oh my God. How old are you, man? You just attempted to reinforce every outdated stereotype regarding men and women. Times have changed. I suggest you get out there and talk to some young people or do some reading on how women can support themselves now and both genders are not as marriage minded due to a world full of unlimited choices. The information age is causing a generation of lonely committment phobes who think the grass is always greener vs. security minded women (or men) who settle.
jeremy says
I’ve read your comments on this topic, Lucey D, and I think I see where you are coming from. You write “I suggest you get out there and talk to some young people or do some reading on how women can support themselves now and both genders are not as marriage minded due to a world full of unlimited choices. ”
Times have certainly changed. However, 2 statistics remain true to this day, and they have implications:
1) The majority of women in this society eventually want to have children.
2) The overwhelming majority of women with children under 18 PREFER to either work part-time or not at all so as to spend more time with their children. (Note that many women with children DO work, but would prefer not to. They work because they have to).
This statistic leads to an obvious corollary – if women want to have children, and if they also want to have the choice of whether or not to work, they will need a reliable source of income from someone else. Notwithstanding the fact that they have education and “can support themselves”, if they have to support themselves they won’t have the lifestyle that they prefer. For that, they need a breadwinning husband.
It is not feminism that gives women choices, it’s money. Even today, if there’s no money there’s no choice. I believe it is correct to say, even today, that women who think ahead are marriage-minded, and look for husbands who can facilitate their ability to chose the lifestyle they want.
hunter says
to Paul,
you are right not all men are limited by logic. The left handed ones, to include, Albert Einstein, Paul Mcartney, Thomas Edison, Ulysses Grant, Robert E. Lee, General Patton, Bill Clinton, etc….are not, because they are said to have the brain of a woman with in the body of a man(testosterone)….See the female mixes her feelings with her thoughts….she can do this because, their brain has a super thick set of blood vessels, connecting the the right side of the brain, to the left, called the “corpus colousom”…..allowing them to process information very fast……
hunter says
to paul,
you said, “marriage counselors did”….yes, that is fairly accurate, you said, “universally” and my post was,,”2/3″, that is fairly close…..I agree their also…..
male or female... says
Nice try with the half-logic there, verbotchity.
An acceptable premise for a logical discussion must be one which is undeniable by both parties before discussion may proceed. Many “millions of men and women have successfully lived according to their roles set forth” not just by the bible, but in the Koran, the Vedas, the Zendavestas, the Book of Mormon …insert any widespread scripture here… also for thousands of years. And yet each sacred text will conflict in content with another in some way. They can’t all be undeniably true, and the mere fact that some have made the rules of Scripture work for them does not mean the tome is categorically truthful, correct, or so applicable to all that it serves as unquestionable basis in an argument. By your logic, if hedonism or incest were practices by which “millions of men and women have successfully lived” then a book preaching those practices would be equally acceptable as basis for logical discourse.
However, you’re not so logical anyway, so you don’t really deserve this explanation.
Stop congratulating yourself that you’ve won an argument just because no one will engage with you. That is a false conclusion.
There comes a point when a person becomes so tiresome that no one wants to interact with him. You, with your laughable conclusory jumps (as above), abuse of the cut-and-paste, and overpreoccupation with only one logical fallacy – the ad hominem (ad nauseum) – have reached that point.
And since you’ve demonstrated at least a thin understanding of fallacies, allow me to point out one more falsehood to you: that anyone need pay you any attention at all. No one is obligated to answer you, with or without ceding to your points. The refusal to engage you does not default to the correctness of your assertions.
People are dismissing you, because your behavior has become ridiculous. It is a well-known strategem that when someone becomes obnoxious or unpleasant in a forum
such as this, that the most effective response is to ignore that person. If people don’t respect a person, what’s the incentive to persuade him of anything? Or, to put it bluntly, what’s the incentive to talk to someone who’s a known ass-hat?
We’re here for Evan’s wisdom, not Paul’s bible thumping or your wacky hypotheses which you mistake for well-reasoned conclusions.
Therefore, know that going forward, people are shunning you not because you’re undeniably right, but because you’ve been odiously unlikeable, and people just aren’t that into you. Hope you are at least smart enough to recognize that the alternative explanation for the silence in response to you (and sanctimonious self-appointed judges like Paul) is that you’re just not worth it.
Selena says
Amen.
verbosity says
male or female,
I asked you to please explain further, and so you have.
Perhaps you did not understand my point, either intentionally or unintentionally. I did not say the bible overall was a logical basis for discussion at all. However it is a fact that for 2000 years, many people worldwide have lived according to those roles. Many have done so successfully, many unsuccessfully, which I also noted.
I don’t care if it’s the bible that set those roles or ET the Extra Terrestrial, or that they are or are not undeniable true. That was not the point at all. The point is that since the writing of those roles, people have lived both successfully and unsuccessfully under those roles (which are undeniable true), whether they are true or not. Therefore, dismissing the fact that people have lived for over two thousand years according to those roles (whether ‘true’ or not) is not fully logical or reasonable. I trust you understand the distinction.
I have not, and will not, sling mud at other posters, no matter how much they may do so to me. Insofar as the rest of your diatribe is concerned, it is worth no further response.
verbosity says
to hunter,
I’m trying to focus on that 30% you mentioned. Gotta sift through the other 70% though. Perhaps add a few percentage points to the 30 along the way… 😉
hunter says
to verbosity,
…I am told that, the “30%”, don’t really advertise,… they are comfortable where they are at,…. so,.. they stay in their own little circles….
verbosity says
hunter,
Those circles are more numerous in some areas than in others. C’est la vie…
hunter says
to verbosity,
Ha, ha, how funny!…hhhmmmhh, really? Tell me more!…..
Hadley Paige says
(1) After reading all the posts here I am forced to conclude that the answer to the question “where are all the emotionally available, mentally healthy men?” is… Same location as the non-overbearing, non-demanding, non-bossy, non-cranky, nurturing, kind, supportive, loving, home&children oriented women.
(2) to Male or Female: I would be very interested to know if the poster is a man or a woman. It helps to understand where someone is coming from when they talk about the perspectives.
verbosity says
hunter,
In all seriousness, I discussed this with a buddy of mine. My theory is that in urban areas that have higher ‘intellectual capital’ (higher # of universities per capita, graduate degrees per capita, sophisticated business climate – like Bay Area, for example), you have fewer #’s of women looking at male earnings. This obviously translates into higher #’s who seek compatible personality traits, not monetary ones. I know this is general, untested, and subject to much criticism, but I think it works in theory.
So, in a place like Phoenix (where I am), you only have 2 universities (yes, I am ignoring NAU). Simply put, there isn’t that much intellectual capital here, comparatively speaking, to a place like SF, Chicago, or Wash, DC.
Ok… my silly theory aside, it would make sense to focus a search (if you actively search) like a job search. What traits do you desire? Brains, beauty, religion, hobbies? And try to find groups, activities, pursuits, etc., that match that. It’s about increasing probabilities, I think.
Mu $0.02
Mattie says
Hello, and greetings – oh, and if it’s not too tardy: happy New Year!
You all sound to this ancient, Brit bat as if you are bright, lively and interesting people. Yes, I did say “all” … But (you knew there’d be one of those), at the same time I find myself feeling sad that so many of you are angry, disappointed and frustrated. I’m sure you don’t deserve to be. Sadly, the situation is comparable over on this side of the pond, BTW, where Thurber’s hilarious ‘sex war’ is beginning to be enacted for real – looking less like an entertaining diversion and more like a genuine battleground. And there are far too many of those in the world already; we don’t need more of ’em.
So I wonder if I might make a few comments from my august position as a complete loser in the game of love. As a divorced woman in her 50s who’s retired from the fray due not so much to lack of interest – on my part or theirs – more because I’m sick of being categorised and treated accordingly. We won’t go into all the gory details (which are, naturally, mind-numbingly tedious): suffice it to say that nobody does anybody else any favours at all by attempting to force them, market research-style, into a rigidly-determined pre-defined box!
We’re each and every one of us unique. This is love, affection, partnership – romance, even (why not?); it is not sociology – with the honourable exception of Zygmunt Bauman’s ‘Liquid Love’, (which has some scathing things to say about the consumer society’s extension of consumerism to male-female relationships), we are looking at this matter from the point of view of private individuals trying to make sense of what we see and feel.
So thinking in broad swathes is dangerous – sentences that begin “all/most men/women are” really aren’t helpful. “Some” might just cut it, though. There’s always one … or two … or even three fuckwits around. Watch out for 3, though: if you’ve met 3 in a row (and this is the number where a sequence first becomes apparent), then you might just benefit from taking a Very Close Look at yourself.
That said, I like Verbosity’s last post re ‘intellectual capital’. I think it’s valid. The old saw about like attracting like really does apply. So, if you are seeking an intelligent, well-informed, well-read and reasonably cultured partner, then you probably need to be in a place where these types abound.
But do older divorced men want an easy time of it? Well, obviously not all of them. One of my friends, aged 65, whose 28-year marriage (his second) to a delightful and wonderful but often contrary woman 15 years his junior hit the rocks a couple of years ago. Does this charming, calm, kindly and handsome chap he go for a straightforward female even younger than his ex? Nope. The new ladylove is … well, of the same age as former wife and just as complex, awkward and cantankerous! And the old darling has moved into her house, which clearly puts him in a position of relative domestic inferiority (always a recipe for disaster, in my experience), where he remains to this day – perfectly happy.
It’s a case of what you’re used to, to a great extent. This man (above), as his ex-wife admits “likes difficult women”. Others may not.
Human beings have a way of resisting theories or theoretical frameworks. Thank God.
So why not just enjoy being your complicated, demanding, bright and interesting selves – get out there and do exactly as you please, and sooner or later you are bound to attract someone who may not be perfect but who is perfect for you.
Make a list of what you want/need in a mate by all means – but be prepared to throw it out when he/she hoves into view, confounding all your expectations! Anything you can think of to help you find a partner which feels right to you – from visualisation to joining a choir – DO IT! It might work; it might not – but you’ll enjoy it nonetheless.
Yes, you’ll probably be disappointed – many times. Learn the lesson, and move on. Your motto in these circumstances should be “next, please!” As Samuel Beckett said “fail. Fail again. Fail better.”
Give people a chance. A friend of mine (female, lovely, clever, 40s with a vile father and history of rotten relationships with even more rotten men) went out with someone she found initially uninspiring, albeit sweet-natured and kind. By the third date she was beginning to like him; by the fifth, she found she was fancying the pants (?’shorts’) off him! Now, 18 months later she’s happily involved with him in a relationship that entails mutual respect, confidence, a feeling of mutual growth and encouragement – and, yes, love.
Never ignore your gut reactions, though: they’re there for a good reason – nature’s atavistic way of telling us there’s a dirt gurt sabre-toothed tiger stalking us (in this case, gender is irrelevant: male or female of the species = equally lethal)! These red lights really do mean ‘stop’; they’ve saved so many of us from some hideous mistakes, even from danger, damage or death.
Listen to your feelings. YOUR feelings – other people’s feelings are theirs, and you are not responsible for them. What are you about? Your needs/wants? If you’ve passed the 40 mark, odds on you’ve become a bit detached from them, being engaged upon progressing a career, raising a family, all that. Now you’ve a chance to listen to your own inner promptings.
And now I’m off to my virtuous couch, before I talk even worse nonsense to you all!
Goodnight – and God bless – and, most of all, good luck to you all. The good luck I’m sure you all deserve.
Mattie xx
hunter says
to verbosity,
…you might be right, ’cause, I can think of one man that moved to S.F. bay area and married up, financially,..
naturegirl says
Thanks Mattie for the words of wisdom!
legal guy says
verbo-
I slogged through most of the exchanges here and you have some points, but do you really consider “arbitrary” an ad hominem attack?
I think of an ad hominem attack as an attack on a person’s character.
To refer to someone’s rules of discourse as “arbitrary” is simply a critique on the extent to which a person is able to think and reason consistently. This seems clearly fair game by your standards of “respectful” discourse.
verbosity says
legal guy,
An ad hominem argument stemming from the Latin (“argument to the man”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. Paraphrased from Wiki..
Calling a poster arbitrary is the very definition of an ad hominem argument (or attack), by calling me arbitrary. It does nothing to respond to the substance of any argument or claims I and others advanced. It simply seeks to call me ‘arbitrary’ for pointing out these fallacious argument methods.
I disagree with your reasoning. I gather from your name you are an attorney, or involved in the law, where discrediting a witness (by their honesty, potential financial gains, biases, etc.) to cast doubt on his/her veracity/truthfulness is par for the course and common. This is not the case, and this is most definitely not a courtroom.
Further, simply engaging in an ad hominem argument is simply a diversionary tactic to distract and divert the real argument away from its true substance. Sadly, it appears all to many people not only understand and do this, but it also appears all too many people do not understand it is being done and buy into the fallacious method.
Jessica says
Mattie – excellent post! Very thoughtful and well-thought-out and thought provoking as well : ) I very much appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us. You sound like a nifty, and very sharp lady, with as good a sense of humor as you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. Thank you for sharing.
jack says
verbosity: ” I gather from your name you are an attorney, or involved in the law, where discrediting a witness (by their honesty, potential financial gains, biases, etc.) to cast doubt on his/her veracity/truthfulness is par for the course and common.”
Ad hominem attack!
tony says
verbose –
dude, you are totally arbitrary, and by that I mean an inconsistent and illogical thinker. plus a hypocrite for personally attacking legal guy’s profession. Judging by the amount of time u spend on this blog, i’ll bet you haven’t had the “fallacious method” performed on u 4 awhile.
rotflmao.
Mattie says
Naturegirl and Jessica:
Greetings, and many thanks for your kind comments (I am blushing!).
Best to you both, and good luck – it’s a rocky road to love!
Mattie x
cerise says
Thank you, Mattie, for restoring some humanity to this long and bitter thread, not to mention throwing us the references to Bauman and Beckett – I love the Beckett quotation and often say it to myself. I haven’t read Bauman;s book – although I attended some of his lectures many years ago – but I will definitely look out for it now.
I am also a fifty-something woman in the UK. Unlike you, I am not retiring from the fray, but about to enter it. I came to this website to read, learn and prepare, but I have to admit that discussions like this one are almost enough to make me give up before I even begin!
Surely the real problem is not ‘men are this’ or ‘women are that’, but the fact that most of us – male and female, young and old – lack emotional maturity? We would all like to meet someone who is just perfect for us and who makes everything easy! After ready-made meals, we want ready-made relationships! We are disappointed and angry that other people don’t meet our expectations, however unreasonable. I do think that the myth of romance has a lot to do with this, at least so far as women are concerned.
I agree with Verbosity that it is better to spend time developing yourself, emotionally, physically and materially, rather than chasing an imaginary ideal partner, expecting them provide what you lack and somehow make you ‘whole’. Actually, this kind of advice has been given to women for years, in self-help books and the like. Strangely, it is not generally found in dating manuals, which tend to approach the whole subject of dating and relationships as a series of exercises in marketing, sales, closing the deal, negotiating, re-negotiating …. perhaps this fits with Bauman;s ideas on the subject?
Anyway, Mattie, I loved your post. It has encouraged me not to give in to despair just yet. I wish I could have someone like you as a mentor …. let me know if you are available for this role!
Best wishes to everyone – may we all find what we need in ourselves and what we love in another.
cerise xx
‘Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.’
Mattie says
To Cerise:
Salut, copine compatriote aux cerises!
Thank you for your very kind remarks, which are much-appreciated – and doubtless undeserved (I mean, have you actually read any of my more confessional posts?! Aargh, the shame …)!
I do wish you all the very best. You clearly possess one of the principal success factors for this arena: courage. A rare quality, indeed. And you’re spot-on about emotional maturity – which entails sufficient self-knowledge, based on experience, to enable a reasonable degree of risk-taking. A point which brings us neatly back to psychological square one, ie sheer guts!
I envy your attendance at Prof B’s lectures. (One of his daughters is a beloved friend of mine.) But I went through school, university, post-grad training, etc., exclusively in the south.
Thank you for correcting my Beckett misquote, ahem. Ah, Jaysus, and me from an Anglo-Irish background!
While working on recovering my own bottle, I have also posted on the lovely NML’s blog, Baggage Reclaim; she could put you in touch.
In any event, I wish you every success and happiness.
Bisous,
Mattie xx
cerise says
Salut Mattie!
Oh yes, courage is essential! But whether I have it – or enough of it – I am not so sure. That’s something I am working on. The need for courage is a fairly recent discovery in my life. But the lack of it, when I was younger, played a major part in the mistakes I made.
I don’t think i have read your other posts, but I am sure you don’t need to feel any shame! I am always grateful to the people who post so openly and honestly about their experiences online, both here and elsewhere.
Ah, Baggage Reclaim! I think it was a link from there that originally brought me to this blog! I subscribe to nml’s newsletter, so I have emailed her to ask if she would give you my address.
Best wishes,
cerise xx
Hot Alpha Female says
Hey guys,
I think the most important thing to remember when it comes to be single and trying to find a man, is to NOT LOOK SO DAM HARD!
Sometimes when we have been single for a period of time that WE consider to be a long …. then we start to get the desperate cravings for a man to fill out life.
Its important to remember first and foremost that YOU are the only person that can make yourself feel complete. Being single is a great time to really learn more about yourself and help develop some empowering beliefs.
When Joan says that there are no good men out there, she is programming in her mind that there isn’t.
This means that even if there are good men out there that she is passing in her immediate life space .. that she doesn’t even recognize that they are there.
That i think is the most serious problem in this situation. Its time to start focusing more on yourself and believing that there are PLENTY of available and worthy men that are ready for a happy and fulfilling relationship …
I think that will make the search that little bit easier.
Hot Alpha Female
JerseyGirl says
Ironic how men want women to be these wonderful happy creatures that are confident in themselves with no baggage yet men look down on women for naturally aging, put them down, tell them how they aren’t good enough. I have learned from this sight that women age, and apparently that is enough to make her appear as “less” to a man and that men age but men are always wonderful and women are just less. Must be nice for the men but it certainly doesn’t make me as a woman have much faith in the male gender.
m says
Ironic how men want women to be these wonderful happy creatures that are confident in themselves with no baggage yet men look down on women for naturally aging, put them down, tell them how they aren’t good enough.
Right on, JerseyGirl.
Comments on this, Evan?
‘Cause it’s a he** of a point.
m says
Matter of fact, you don’t even have to be too old (although we all age from Year One, which so many men seem to conveniently ignore)!
As a woman, you can also be too young (“it’s just wearing on me; I’ve seen so much more of life than she has”), too thin (“She’s just skin and bones; I need some curves”), too fat (seen the articles about the Orthodox Jewish men who are asking their shidduchs if the girl’s mother is above a size 8??? ‘Cause if she is, you know what’s going to happen to the prospective wife when she gets to be, let’s say, 60! The horror!!), too short (“I feel like I’m cradle-robbing”), too tall (NO SYMPATHY WHATSOEVER for short men who won’t date these women), too broke (the ever present “gold-digger” epithet), too rich (“I don’t feel like the MAN in the relationship” — don’t even get me started) …
And after getting the psychic crap beat out of us day after day after day after day after YEAR after YEAR AFTER YEAR of this endless bile spewing against our entire sex (’cause you know, if it’s happened to a man with one woman, then ALL women are of course like that — so logical**) we’re supposed to be happy in ourselves. And confident! And gee golly gosh, men just don’t understand why we’re not! But if we’re not, well then, we just suck as women.
Awesome.
**BTW, you know, guys, as a whole, you’re not really any more LOGICAL and RATIONAL than women, in general.
First, you’re just as emotional (anger management, anyone? Punching a hole in the wall? Verbally abusing your employees? Beating up on the wife, kids, dog? Women outliving men because of all those heart attacks and strokes precipitated by the blood vessels burst in the course of the yelling and shouting?).
Second, your thought processes aren’t necessarily LOGICAL. They’re LINEAR.
There is a difference.
r says
Keep bashing the guys ladies. You look so much more attractive when you do. LOL.
vino says
Just read this thread.
All I have to say is WOW. Here’s what I’ve seen in brief. Where are all the healthy, emotionally available men? Evan and several other male posters answered, and were attacked in kind for their replies.
It seems that many lady posters do not like the answers offered by Evan and others. Verbosity brought up the point and stats about post-divorce and caution to cliff-dive into a another deeply entangled relationship I find perfectly reasonable. Yet the venom directed towards him was swift and copious. As he noted, no one refuted him.
Lyall Taylors posts around #22 were terrific. I’m not blamin’ women, just pointing out that a question has been asked, and rather than listen to the answers, processing them, and respecting them, the reaction is vituperative and attacking.
I’m going to circle back on the thread of Where Are All of the Cute, Stable, Successful… thread that Evan closed. Notice many of the guys on that thread had seemingly ‘checked out’ from dating and mating for many reasons. You may say ‘great’ to that re: those posters.
But my point is different. If good, emotionally available guys tell ladies what they want and they are very harshly attacked for it, it’s very possible they too have left the dating game as not being worth it to them. So perhaps bashing men (or women) who don’t tell you what you want to hear isn’t an effective tactic.
Something to think about.
amanda says
verbosity made some interesting points. also his style was quite easily lampoonable.
jules says
” If good, emotionally available guys tell ladies what they want…”
…then level-headed ladies will not object. However, I don’t feel verbosity came off as such by a long shot. You’ll notice that Hadley Paige often expresses the same or similar sentiments as verbosity, and rarely gets attacked. He has a markedly more expository and diplomatic style.
And at the end of the day, when we’re sharing ideas about dating, you want to hear from the person who sounds like someone you’d want to date.
vino says
I can see your points re: style. But the next question that comes to mind – So to not be attacked people have to post in a style that others demand or expect? I don’t get it. One may not like his style of writing as ‘too blunt’ or another adjective.
But of he had some points, why attack him instead of respond to the points? I don’t get it.
I thought this is a place where people can post and all ideas are welcome, even if controversial. isn’t that part of being individuals?
Jules wrote: “… at the end of the day, when we’re sharing ideas about dating, you want to hear from the person who sounds like someone you’d want to date.”
I’m not nitpicking, but that seems a bit unreasonable, expecting someone to sound that way in this manner, particularly if they are putting forth differing, and sometimes opposing views.
I write this as someone actually trying to understand, not as criticism.
JerseyGirl says
Keep bashing the guys ladies. You look so much more attractive when you do. LOL.
—————————————————————————-
I wasn’t bashing men. It is really frustrating how men take any form of critism of them as “bashing”. Critism and bashing are not the same thing. I was saying what I felt was true. Men expect women to be these happy little creatures but at the same time men have some many unrealistic expectations about what they want in a woman, what they wish women were more like (just look at porn), and yet men don’t expect these things to have an efffect on women? That is unlogical.
It is unrealistic to expect a woman not to have baggage. Any woman over the age of 15, is going to have some kind of baggage. Because guess what, any girl over the age of 15 most likely has encountered some hurt in her life with other people male and female.
$Francisco says
It is unrealistic to expect a woman not to have baggage. Any woman over the age of 15, is going to have some kind of baggage. Because guess what, any girl over the age of 15 most likely has encountered some hurt in her life with other people male and female.
But does the baggage need to be so big? It’s not that it’s a change purse or even a overnight bag. We’re talking about steamer trunk size baggage! The kind of baggage that the airlines will charge you a couple of hundred dollars to carry. And it’s old baggage, not new baggage. Ladies, unpack your bags; trade in the Samsonite luggage for a nice DG and carry the “important” things.
Susan Young says
Francisco,
There are a great number of women that have been sexually abused by male family members or friends. Although this happens to men as well women as children, women have been much more often the victims. Women also for centuries been blamed when they got raped and molested. This happens when a society has given more power to males then women. Especially in earlier years, women were rarely believed when they came forward about sexual abuse or raped. In actuality it is quite rare for a woman to lie about sexual abuse or rape. It doesn’t take much to betray the trust of a child which can leave a lifetime of struggle with adult relationships. I am hoping that you protect the women in your family from sexual abuse so they don’t have to suffer. One does not recover from sexual abuse by snapping ones fingers.
Hadley Paige says
RE” Jules post @ 101 >> “You’ll notice that Hadley Paige often expresses the same or similar sentiments as verbosity, and rarely gets attacked.”
Ladies and Gentleman –“Its not what you say its how you say it.” Ain’t that the truth.
I am a lawyer (biz & real estate). I make my living by making deals work. That means that boths sides need to feel like they got something & feel good about the process. In order to do that, it requires not getting people on opposite sides of the deal (or a view point) angry or reactive.
I never cease to be amazed at how one can tell people things they don’t want to hear (REALLY don’t want to hear), things that will affect them in a really negative way (say an eviction for example) and have them be comfortable with it and not hate you. How? Treat them as human beings deserving of respect who have a point of view and want to be heard.
Someone once told me that where there is anger there is pain. That has helped me alot in my dealings w people.
I suggest these dialogs would benefit from such a perspective.
cessie says
After all these threads, I had to read again what started all this:
I think Evan really didn’t listened (read) to what Joan said (Sorry Evan). She said she felt she was a “pretty, happy, vivacious, cool chick”. There’s no dark lining in her words. She did not come across to me as “anxious, self-righteous, negative, entitled”. In fact, she mentioned that she had been in a couple of relationships where some were still grieving and two relationships wherein they chose to revert back to women with major drama issues, not because the women were “easy” or “light”. How can Joan possibly be “anxious or self-righteous, etc.” when she’s involved with men such as these? I think Joan needs to look at why “she” is choosing men who have this inner need for drama. She is an intelligent woman, she can see the signs, the signs are there long before it gets too deep, she’s just not listening to them. Maybe she has a subliminal need for caretaking.
Mattie in #82 said it best: “Give people a chance; Never ignore your gut reaction; Listen to YOUR feelings”, that goes for men and as well as the women. Taking sides and digging our heels in will get us all nowhere.
Blandion says
Where are all the emotionally available, mentally healthy men? Well, let’s see, emotionally available men happen to be vulnerable enough that once their heart gets broken they are no longer mentally healthy. (Men don’t handle break-up as well as women)
Once you rule out those men, that just leaves emotionally unavailable men that are trying to protect themselves from having their heart broken by being assholes :).
JerseyGirl says
I like emotionally unavailable men!
No seriously, I do, and it stinks.
moonsical says
Whew. An old and exhausting thread. I meet men daily that seem healthy enough. Now to find one cute to me.
As for women being submissive to their men. Wow. I thought that went out with the Dark Ages. I’m of the age now where the majority of my friends are divorced. Many of whom tried to be the “little woman,” stay home with the kids, etc. They ended up bored, not using their skills, and in a financially stressed household, which, if you haven’t paid attention, is the number one things couples fight about: money.
The successful marriages (and I mean thriving, not just towing the line) I know have two people equally pursuing their dreams and goals, often taking turns if needed, both contributing to the financial and domestic well-being of their home. Women provide more than “supplemental” income–sometimes they are the major breadwinner–men cook and clean. Deal with it!
moon
Been There, Done That says
I find the whole older man dating younger women because it’s easier since younger women don’t have the baggage older women do to be ridiculous.
Everyone has baggage. However, most men don’t think they have baggage; it’s always the women who have the baggage because they cause trouble and make life difficult by wanting something from men. Even “bad boys” don’t have baggage, they are just bad.
As someone, who at age 19/20/21 dated rich and successful men age 40 or older because I could, I want you to consider the following: where the hell did you think I got all the baggage that I’m now carrying around in my 40s! Doh!
Plus, with all that baggage comes with experience, both good and bad. I would never want to be in my 20s again and be as clueless as I was back then. As the saying goes…If I knew then what I know now, I would have done things a lot differently.
starthrower68 says
Both sides have legitimate points; if it’s happened to you, then your perception is truth to you. I’m amazed yet again that any relationship ever makes it.
Seductress Within says
Wow, I’m exhausted reading through this thread. Both sides have some valid points.
My 2 cents:
Yes, men do prefer easy to be with, uncomplicated, fun women.
Yes, I think many women need to lighten up a bit. Not saying this is the original posters problem-I have no clue.
But does “fun”=”younger” in some cases sure, but I believe there are other reasons men go for the younger woman.
It makes THEM feel younger, and it’s a pride/status thing-it makes them look good to other men to have a pretty younger woman on their arm.
None of this offends me as a woman by the way. I LIKE to be the pretty younger woman on a man’s arm. But only if he’s fabulous in every other way too. 😉
Do men have their fair share of issues. Or course, but what I don’t hear much of on this thread is optimism. Geesh, most of the posts sound so jaded. Dating is difficult and being let down time and again can get to you. But blaming the other sex solves nothing.
If you keep getting the same result, then you HAVE to examine what YOU can do different.
Sayanta says
Moonsical-
I’m glad to have read your post #109- it’s a relief to know that SOMEone knows people in thriving marriages. I thought such a thing was as rare as unicorns.
vino says
I just re-read the OP’s original letter and a few things struck me. First, she’s a single mom. While there are many men that are fine with single moms, most men I know with their acts together will simply not entertain that notion.
Also, of the available men in the OP’s age range (40-45), I’m sure that there are more than a few divorced ones, or whose good friends or family are divorced. Of these, I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that the once bitten, twice shy theory would apply.
And last, I have no idea what emotionally available means. It sounds like psychological gobbledy-gook to me.
Sayanta says
“While there are many men that are fine with single moms, most men I know with their acts together will simply not entertain that notion.”
Hmmm- if it works for Jake Gyllenhall and Ashton Kutcher, why not for these ‘regular’ men?
A-L says
Well, the beauty of this post is that we actually know what happened afterwards. The Secret to Love: Mr. Imperfect is Acually Mr. Right https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/secret-to-love-mr-imperfect-is-mr-right/
I agree with Vino that most men would prefer a woman without children to a woman with children. But at a certain point in time guys realize that their dating pool is also shrinking (though not to the same extent as women’s) and that they need to be open to the idea if they are to have any dates, as most women by the age of 40 have children. There are also those guys who want to be a father so badly (but haven’t yet) that will take the insta-family presented by a single mother, even if their ideal is to start one from scratch.
Stealing my statistics from the “My Faithful Boyfriend” thread:
12% of men 35-44 are divorced
14.7% of men 45-54 are divorced
29.9% of men 35-44 are single (divorced & never married)
24.4% of men 45-54 are single (divorced & never married)
By the time she’s in the 45-54 range there are more single women than there are single men. Interestingly, the same phenomenon occurs with women 30-34 but not 35-44. Food for thought.
As far as emotionally healthy is concerned, I’d say it’s someone who has good self-esteem (that contentious word!), isn’t needy, isn’t a commitment-phobe, and knows how to express his/her emotions without bottling them all up inside or having huge eruptions of them all the time.
vino says
A-L wrote:
“As far as emotionally healthy is concerned, I’d say it’s someone who has good self-esteem (that contentious word!), isn’t needy, isn’t a commitment-phobe, and knows how to express his/her emotions without bottling them all up inside or having huge eruptions of them all the time.”
This is going to sound like the picky high school teacher, but after reading that I still don’t know what emotionally available means. Self-esteem (as A-L & I have discussed in another thread) is a term that means different things to different people, and therefore useless to me as a clarifying term. Commitment-phobe is another term that doesn’t mean anything. Heck, I bet Webster’s has no definition for it.
Perhaps that for people of either gender, they aren’t ready to ‘settle down’ or ‘commit’ until they meet someone they feel they can do that with. That doesn’t make them ’emotionally unavailable,’ which seems to present a negative characteristic (to my eyes, at least). Maybe it just means they are ’emotionally available’ to someone else.
Maybe it’s just that the phrase is most often used as a sword.
A-L says
Alright, I’ll revise my definition.
As far as emotionally healthy is concerned, I’d say it’s someone who is confident, not afraid to be alone, is willing to commit to someone if s/he feels it is a match, and knows how to express his/her emotions without bottling them all up inside or having huge eruptions of them all the time.
Is that clearer?
Though there are undoubtedly people who use the word commitment-phobe to describe someone who didn’t want to date them, I think the word came about when a significant other has said, “You’re everything I’m looking for but I’m only looking for something casual/am not ready to settle down.” Or it is one who purposefully screws up a good relationship because s/he has his/her own emotional issues regarding relationships that s/he needs to deal with (ie, having an affair or picking an argument to get the other person to break up with him/her). A lot of these people are people with abandonment issues, so if they do something to screw up the relationship, causing their S.O. to dump them, then it was really them who controlled the relationship, they weren’t abandoned. Though it’s not a term I use often, I think that emotionally available/unavailable is a specific term.
Rob says
I read the original article after doing a web search on available and mentally healthy, and stayed to read a good amount of the comments, although I skipped over the ones that seemed to not be able to walk away from making an argument by repetition.
As a mid 40’s man, I wanted to throw my own thoughts into the ring. A couple of things that stood out in the original post. First, in the original letter the writer made a point that they looked “young” and went on to say they looked 35 instead of 42? I don’t see a lot of difference with those ages. Also, her point was that she was attractive because she was the “cool chick” and her guy friends confirmed this for her. Did she qualify their advice by their own track record of success and did she ask them for some constructive advice on what she could do to be a better person in general and in relationships. These guys may be great resources for her or a boat anchor dragging her down with bad advice.
As someone that’s currently dating someone 10 years younger, I don’t see the age thing as that significant. I would date a woman 10 years older as well. There’s really not that much difference, in my opinion, unless you’ve decided you don’t want to give up the possibility of having your own biological children.
From my own experience, and I’m trying to be honest, I think I have a much easier time finding successful, available, interesting women to date. So as far as the man vs woman wars commentary, I don’t think I’ve seen what some comments indicate that “women rule the world” or however it was phrased. That seems a lot like another episode in the “All About ME!” show, that I think both men and women dating suffer through too often.
I guess my advice is be realistic, if you want to take more than you’re willing to give in a relationship, you’ll only find unhealthy and short term relationships. Also, if you are not meeting the quality of people that you are happy with, take a break, go back and work on yourself. This will keep your attitude positive and bring the right kind of people into your life. After a period of time doing that, then start thinking about trying new things and expanding your opportunities to meet people. That has been what has worked for me.
I know more single women that I wouldn’t date that have an “in your face” kind of attitude. Really, women that are strong and confident don’t need to do this, their lives speak for themselves. Just like men that suffer from being an adult boy, the little princess syndrome is a fatal flaw.
I’m not picking on women, I just only have the male perspective and my experiences to offer on this. Obviously, the experts on how it is for women are women.
starthrower68 says
Rob,
With regard to the “in your face” type of women, I think sometimes women mistake “meekness” for “weakness” and the two are not the same. I believe meekness means strength under control. I don’t think an emotionally healthy, self-respecting man wants a woman to “out man” him. But I would also say that in some cases, the “in your face” attitude is a defense mechanism rather than an actual attitude. Maybe they are expecting to be hurt. I’m not saying it’s right, just speculating.
june says
Wow, what a lot of commentary going round and round in circles! I can only speak from my experience about men.I am saddened that the men I seem to attract are not very nice. They want some kind of relationship with me because I am easy to be with and not demanding..that has been my downfall. There are men on this site that tell women to just relax and give the guys they date an easy time. Well, I have done that and have always end up being used and dumped. I have not been demanding, I have not rung constantly, not complained and been thoughtful and giving, thinking I would be loved in return…wrong. The men I have been with have taken my easy going attitude as permission to treat me with disrespect. I am not a stupid woman, just trying to be uncomplcated but men have then walked all over me. No wonder I am now disillusioned and angry. I think I have given and given and given only to have men take and take and take. And don’t get me started on the good sex I have given them only to have them refuse to please me in bed! I never wanted to be a doormat and never thought I was..just trying to be nice and giving but it certainly is not true that the more you give the more you receive!
sjvenden says
I have had two serious relationships in my life so far.. Hopefully the current relationship I am in is life long.. I did not grow up with any consistent male influences, and I have been seriously hurt by some men in the past… Interaction can be rather difficult for me.. It feels like I am treading water.. or walking through the dark.. I understand that there is a major difference between men and women on most things in life.. My point here is just because one man or a handful of men have hurt you in the past, don’t count them out… Having an open communication is very important, both parties need to understand were the other one is coming from.. Yes I have issues communicating with my partner, but I make an effort to try to get my point a crossed without being so dramatic.. easier said then done sometimes… What I have seen in my adult life, and through my own experiences is an open mind.. and the willingness to listen, even if its been the hundredth time he said that or repeated a story.. And if you have something important that you would like to tell a guy or you want to find something out, and you want to be blunt but you feel it may be a turn off for your guy, turn the statement into a question.. to start the conversation… (probably the best advice that I got from a male friend)… It works! I have noticed that when a guy is trying to share their true feelings about something, it hard for them.. Like the world is finding out some big secret… that they have feelings and they get hurt just as easily as women.. but if they so it then they are being “unmannly” or “unmancho”…. weak … so sometimes a guy is sharing their feelings but its not so direct.. “I Feel this way”…etc etc.. they’re feelings are between the lines sort of speak… and harder for women to see… turning the mouth off and turning up the ear to hear.. and you may be surprised… not all men are jerks, just there is a bunch out there…
khadija says
Replying to June, it’s certainly true that you have to be a bit selfish as a woman. You have to put yourself first, value your needs, engage in little to no self-criticism (if you do, it’s for two seconds and it’s constructive and that’s it), clarify what you want and set high standards for them. Don’t let them into your heart or on your body or give them emotional support like a wife would give if they don’t meet those standards. I used to be like you and I was used and discarded exactly the same way. Men don’t like women who are too harsh – or too soft. You need to be a bit selfish and put yourself first. Selfish and loving can coexist. Putting yourself first doesn’t make you a bad person. What I had was ‘nice girl syndrome’.
Kurt S. says
If Joan is as attractive as she claims to be, I bet that there are men her own age who are interested in her. However, she probably thinks that those guys are unattractive or boring or whatever and instead aims only for the “hottest” guys her age. However, the “hottest” guys in their mid-40s are also very attractive to women younger and possibly hotter than Joan is, so it isn’t surprising that they also go for the most attractive women they can get.
Maybe Joan had the pick of the litter when she was in her 20s and is shocked that she no longer gets the same level of attention now that she is 42 and a single mother. I suppose that would be a blow to her ego.
Denise says
You need to be a bit selfish and put yourself first.
Selfish is NOT the right word.
There is NOTHING wrong with looking out for our own self interests.
There is NOTHING wrong with building a strong boundary–where we choose who we let into our lives and choose what type of behavior we are willing to accept or not accept.
Both of the above apply to all relationships in life. Keeping focus on that makes us kind but firm, strong but empathetic–and, most importantly, keeps us focused on these things we can control, which is only ourselves.
anonymous says
After reading through all these comments, it struck me that Evan’s original advice had a fatal flaw that tipped off the whole thread in this negatively spiraling manner.
He read into Joan’s comments and suggested she had a fatal flaw in her personality, which was based on not any knowledge he had of her, but rather on a certain stereotype or image he had in his head of the older woman who is angry because men have let her down in her life. He then tried to tell her (assuming that she must be the kind of person that complicates things, because he had the assumption that this is how women are) and then tried to tell her a stereotypical idea that all men want is something that she is supposedly not (and by implication, cannot be. She is not “young” supposedly and she is supposedly not simple.)
Personally I think there is some credance to the argument that inexperience or “simplness” is attractive when one’s ego is in need of being propped up. It does seem like “simpleness” stands in as a veiled desire to go back to the days when women could not demand anything really of their relationships (marriages) with men because they were not able to be financially independant, and had been socially conditioned to be emotionally dependant on men.
Really, I don’t buy into the argument that men are by the thread’s implication “simpler” than women. They are often all the more complicated and make the relationship difficult because they don’t voice their feelings. (which can lead to emotional, anger issues.)
It is notable however, that while the higher divorce rates keep being cited in this thread, no one has pointed out that these they are propped up superficially so, because historically, it was much more difficult to get divorces, and so there were many many more instances of separated families (one or more spouse disappearing from the family picture.) Apparently if you compare these numbers with present day divorce rates the numbers are nearly the same.
Relationships are difficult. However, from reading this thread it has become apparent to me that when men say they want simple, what they really want is someone who will give a lot and not ask them for very much. A model which is now outdated to western women’s expectations. Women in turn, are asking for perhaps too much, because these men were often raised to be this way. If we don’t raise our boys to be giving and thoughtful, how are we going to get the men they grow into to be that way? And stop seeing the situation as polarized or as either gender being inherently one way or the other, which is what Evan instated in his initial advice.
My advice to Joan is to go ask your guy friends for feedback, and look at the factors that attract you to a particular man. You might be attracted to unhealthy personal attributes that lay the groundword for these failed relationships. Try dating a different kind of guy than you’re used to dating. But most of all try to get at the source of the problem through self knowledge and respectfully with the help of people that know you. Buying into these assumptions about who you are, just because you are a woman, is not productive.
JP says
Thanks, anonymous. You’ve hit on what made Evan’s post so provocative and why it strikes many as unfair. A fitting “last word” to end my reading of this thread on.
Let's Get Real says
The remarks made by some of the men who replied do not surprise me in the least. I have yet to meet a man who is totally “easy-going” and “fun” just like the younger women they say they want to be with. These men have an inflated image of who they are. As an attractive 45 year old woman, I’ve had my share of seemingly intelligent men with good jobs and good looks. The truth of the matter is these men have flaws such as not being easy -going,not being very much fun and being anxious ( given the right circumstances ). The very sam, flaws they claim mature women possess. Life is complex and so are people;both men and women alike. People are not groceries lists. A man or woman with depth and wisdom are more likely to have meaningful long term relationships. Grocery list people are usually narcissistic. They are looking for that perfect someone who doesn’t exist. Ladies please do not compromise. Make a rich and rewarding life for yourselves. Find peace and contentment inside and the right man will come. Hopefully, it won’t be any of the men who responded to this website.
Karen says
Hi-I couldn’t help joining in! I found the article extremely interesting and I think it is probably true.
I’m one of those fabulous divorced midlife women mentioned in the article–I got divorced 5 years ago at 45 (my ex moved in with his secretary), but I look and feel great, I have a great career & finances, my kids are almost grown. I’ve dated a lot since my divorce.
I would agree that it’s mostly men slightly older than me have been most interested in dating me–men in their 50’s to late 50’s–which is a bit frustrating for me. I’d prefer a younger man because I’m always mistaken for younger myself, and looking ahead I’d rather not marry a man that much older than me because by the time I retire from my job he might actually be dead! But on the other hand, these older men seem to have their lives together more than the men in their 40’s that I’ve dated who have been without exception the most screwed up men I’ve ever met.
I would disagree however with another point of the article—every single man I’ve dated even slightly long term (these have been the guys with their lives together) has been desperate to get married to me (or anyone I think). It always comes up after 9 months or so of dating. I’m happy to get physical with my man, but to contemplate moving in together or marrying anytime soon (OMG!)
I’d prefer to wait a good long time and just enjoy dating and spending time together. I’m not trying to have a family–I already have one. I do want to find a good man to eventually marry and enjoy retirement with, but right now I have a lot of other worries and responsibilities–I don’t need a new husband too! I have teenagers living at home still, I have financial responsibilities in terms of their college educations, my job, and my parents. Why would I risk all of that because of a guy I’ve dated for less than a year? And to take on yet more laundry and cooking and cleaning? Sorry guys, you’ll have to wait!
So, from my experience as a midlife woman, it seems like the men who are seeking commitment. Maybe because it’s “easier” for them? I do think that men like being married in most cases, because they have someone to make a home for them.
Joe says
Karen, are the “desperate to get married” guys more often divorced, or more often never-married?
ambassador says
Why is it all so hard in the West? Well, there is a lot less emphasis on human connectedness, spontaneity and emotion. It’s about the total social contract, and Western societies are driven by the culture of prolonged adoloscence, youthfulness and superficiality. Hence the issues people of either gender are facing there. Except that – men are at an advantage, as everywhere, purely due to set up of the contemporary society.
And to the person who wrote about wanting women to be women and blaming women’s liberation movement, have you checked some facts such as that most households need two people to work to pay off their mortgage and just afford ‘the dream’? Maybe it’s got something to do with the unhappy women, still doing 2/3rds of the world hours, regardless of where they are.
ambassador says
… oh, and one more thing — even the concept of having a personal trainer for ‘women who want to fall in love’ … I mean, what are we? Robots? We are WIRED for love!
Es-kah-rola says
There is a lot to be said for all these opinions. They are opinions. The bashing is a turn-off.
jackie says
After 2 divorces and feeling like I was an attractive, young looking, intelligent, successful female I came to the conclusion I was doing something wrong. NOT them……. not all those uncaring unavailable men out there – but me. my 2nd short marriage to a narcissist was a disaster and helped me realise I was attracting or being attracted to the wrong sort of guy. I knew there were good guys out there – they were the happily married ones.
THERAPY – more than two years of it showed me what was wrong. A very unhappy childhood with a distant unavailable mother had primed me to be attracted to unavailable men. What they offered felt so familiar I fell for it each time. I probably didn’t even notice the decent, loving men who showed interest. I thought I was sorted but I wasn’t. If anyone is having problems in finding a healthy relationship then try therapy to look at how you are operating and where you are going wrong.
Now at 64 I am 8 months into a relationship with a kind, loving, sexy man only 5 years older than me. I’m keeping my fingers crossed and checking out all my insecurities with my therapist but so far it feels good. It also feels strange because I’m not too good at honest availability myself…but I am learning.
Sexygenerian says
An observation that
women who have been “chased” possibly develop an expectation or attitude that this will continue.
It’s hard to accept that one has lost some of our earlier appeal to the opposite sex.
Honest self realization and change of attitude is required if our actions are not getting the desired results.
Tara says
I think we all have issue and we all have to deal with them individually. There will never be a “correct” answer to this delima because no one wants to hear the truth about oneself. We all have the asshole gene, whether you be male or female. We choose when we want it to surface and when we want to supress it. But keep brainstorming and maybe you will find that advice from another isn’t really what you wanted.
Underenthusiastic says
I am personally amazed at this discussion. Why do so many people (men and women) choose to view dating and relationships, even marriage, as a game; one that pits man against woman, and one which must be “won”? Isn’t the whole point to find someone you can share a life with, or at least a little time, and enjoy the company of? In a long-term relationship, shouldn’t we be looking for someone who brings out the best in us and makes our life together better than either of our lives apart were? No wonder the divorce rate is so high: everyone seems to have forgotton the whole point!
Jo says
Hello everyone. Wow what a debate. I’ve been scrolling fairly quickly after the last 30 mins of reading, as it’s my opinion, that a large majority of people here..not men or women..people..could profit from working on their emotional maturity.
I’m a 40 yr old woman. Nearly 6ft athletic naturally pretty but honestly.. beauty’s in the eye of the beholder so i couldn’t care less. The attributes i think that count are i’m a kind and tolerante joyous loving personality. I couldn’t give a care what a man earns$ unless it’s my respect, love and devotion.
I agree whole heartedly with Rob comment 119.
Profoundly what comes across in all these debates seems to be, that once people start talking about romance they completely forget the simple undeniable truth of what a relationship really is and why everyone wants one… to be friends and compliment each other irrelevent of where your at in life.
So i’d suggest radical acceptance of everybody’s point of view if that’s what they think, well ok, hope that works for you.
My friends have similar interests, moral codes, authenticity, depth, generosity, flexibilty etc and we never have a problem communicating and finding new ways of supporting each other and evolving into better people.
The bad relationships i’ve had in the past were due to men not being honest nor authentic and neither was i. Both equally emotionally immature. They were spoilt self serving unreasonable and disrespectful men who had bad attitudes and didn’t like the consequenses to their choices. I on the other hand constantly changed my boundaries and ethics to a lesser value to accept sub par behaviour which resulted in an unhappy and unbalanced relationship, severely in their favour. I spoilt men who gave me very little of what i deserved and wanted. If you except less from the start, your going to end up with alot more less by the end.
So..rather than complaining they were selfish unfair fools, i asked myself why i was such a fool for ever tolerating such low quality. None of these people had the ability to build a good relationship, and none of them were like my friends in attributes.
Therefore..I had to change. So now i’m emotionally healthy but continue to evolve, and i find it is most definately that ‘like attracts like’. If your emotionally immature you’ll be attracted to and they to you. Ying and Yang. Push/Pull. Instead of Dance.
If your mature, you’ll be balanced and happy and enjoying life irrespective and you’ll find lots of people who fit the bill.
All my relationships are compatible, respectful, supportive, endearing etc because i’m emotionally mature. Life is of a much better quality and i’ve been working on myself for 2 yrs single, happy to see the proof of what works in a happier life. I am no longer attracted to emotionally immature men, nor they to me. The big boys however..just love me and i they. Yes they are fewer, irrelevant of age. But the creame of the crop always is. He’ll love me all the more because i’m so rare and vice versa. Appreciation will not be an issue. For now, i have an increasing amount of valuable people in my life and i’m grateful that they think i’m pretty special too.
So.. people.. don’t give up.. grow up.
Jo says
Apologies about my spelling in the prior post everyone. Typing fast and haven’t slept.
Just read post 137 by Underenthusiastic. YEAH!!! You are so right. The power dynamics are prevelent in the comments aren’t they? No wonder about the divorce rates. Push/Pull. A whole lot of misery and no growth. To think these people are our community? (wink)(smurk)
Emotionally mature people .. Dance. Give/Give. A sway of back and forth consideration. Their goal is to build a complimentary relationship. Not a lop sided one. There are no power games involved. A mature person will simply drop the rope once the other plays push/pull.
So you see.. the only reason you can be involved with a bad dynamic is if you choose to play or your not aware of the rules of engagement. Both equal emotional maturity and relationship skills.
Once you’ve acheived that.. ALL your main relationships will encompass a give/give dance full of trust, respect and consideration and growth.
No need to bash your opponent over the head with your opinions. Respect they have the right to theirs and drop the rope. They’ll find someone else to tussle with, always ending in the same dysfunction.
Honestly everyone i’m sympathetic to your pain. If your questioning why you can’t find the right people in life, it certainly starts with you. If your intimate relationships are failing so dismally, it may well be that your counterpart is at fault but if you were emotionally mature, you’d know that before the relationship evolved too far and you’d have dropped the rope.
I hope this helps everyone. It would be lovely to hear miles of happy comments instead. I wish you all happiness.
Love says
I am 30 something and am dating someone 12 years my junior. All I can say is that when I changed my perception of what relationships should look like I opened myself to the time of my life!
tryandfindus says
Perhaps I missed a few comments somewhere up there and am rehashing points already discussed, but that ‘verbosity’ guy’s tedious posts in which he reiterated the same sh!t over and over again were unfortunately forcing me to skim a bit in places.
I’m not 50, I’m not 42, I’m 30, and if that makes me “a kid” [whose viewpoints are therefore not valid] or “immature” in the eyes of some here, so be it….but has no one mentioned that the OP has children, and that may be a hindrance when it comes to finding men?
I don’t care how awesome, free-spirited or fun a girl is…if she has kids, that’s a deal-breaker -period-. I don’t want my own children, and certainly don’t want to help raise some other man’s kids, knowing that I’d *always* be number-two in the woman’s eyes; as it should be, children should come first.
And I realize that shrinks my dating pool significantly, and that it will likely get worse as I get older, but I don’t want to “settle” for a someone with whom I am incompatible on a very significant level, simply to be in a relationship – or because I’m supposedly “out of options”.
There’s ALWAYS another option of some sort…there’s f#cking billions of people on this planet of all ages, educational backgrounds, sexual orientations, political persuasions, and income levels (many people are superficial enough to place huge importance upon the latter criterion).
And if you absolutely cannot find *anyone* with whom you are compatible, then embrace your singleness; life is not empty and pointless just because you don’t have a ring on your finger (or a baby in a crib), and if you need the validation of a relationship to be content in your life, then you obviously have some major insecurities of some sort.
I don’t get a lot of attention from girls, so I don’t wish to come across as a “hip single bachelor” (also known as a “player”) who has his choice of attractive women and can afford to be picky. Loneliness sucks – I’ve been there, in fact, I’m still in the exact same boat – sh!t, its downright depressing…but so is giving up (been there, too).
And I really am loathe to generalize, but if some of these posts are indicative of the thought processes and attitudes of average “older” single women, then I’ll stick to dating women in their 20s.
Would you girls want to date a stick-in-the-mud older guy, who is cold, stoic, emotionally distant, and devoid of passion and excitement?
Probably not.
So why would we guys want to date a female with these same negative traits?
We don’t.
Here’s some unsolicited advice:
Lighten up *A LOT*, and drop the bitter, jaded act, even if this was legitimately caused by d!ckhole men from your past; we’ve all been wronged by some a$$hole at some point, and certainly take your time if necessary putting whatever-it-is behind you (life hurts!) …but don’t carry that baggage around, ready to foist it upon a new prospect.
And stop with the games, (“hard to get,” etc) seriously. Men don’t like games and we aren’t telepathic…we like direct and, yes, “simple”. Maybe the games thing was the thing to do back when you were 16-25…but come on, grow up a bit.
And remember how to have fun and enjoy life! 🙂 I’m guessing you knew how to, “back in the day”…
Sitting around moping is not going to help matters at all; stress ages you, keep in mind. A happier attitude will contribute to keeping your youthful looks, if nothing else.
– peace
(and if my viewpoints on this subject radically change in the next ten years, then I shall humbly accept admonishment, LOL)
helen says
I don’t see that this woman got a decent answer to her concern. It is a carefully written letter describing that she is NOT a negative unattractive person, nor is she looking in all the wrong places or just not creating enough opportunities. Evan knows full well there is truth in her plea for help, he has built a business on the perpetuating the myth that women just aren’t good enough.
Even the men will tell you there are few decent men out there, including the married ones. They often shy from befriending these men themselves, citing any number of common reasons why they are not like “that” guy. Statistically, men cite their closest or only companion to be their wife or female significant other, not a male friend (despite the recent popularity of bromance movies).
Then there are just basic statistics such as population by gender, domestic violence, obesity, unemployment, mental disability, imprisonment ratios, and homosexuality is double the rate in males than it is in females. Duh.
Rob (119) got it right when he said “He read into Joan’s comments and suggested she had a fatal flaw in her personality, which was based on not any knowledge he had of her, but rather on a certain stereotype or image he had in his head of the older woman who is angry because men have let her down in her life.”
PJay says
I read the original letter and all the posts in response.
I have a solution for Joan. She should become a lesbian and date only women.
Because women are better in every way and superior to men.
You’re welcome.
caoanne says
I think some of this advice might be valid. However, how many of these ‘older men’ actually do date younger women?
In my age range -mid 40s-early50s — there is a baby bust, after early 60s, when the population dropped. This comes back with the millenials, around early 80s. For a man in his early 50s there are about two of him for every mid 30 something woman out there, and I’d say three fourths of those women are dating guys their own age range, or younger or slightly older. Where does that leave a guy who doesn’t find one of these women. I’ve seen this other places, these guys want ‘a woman with no baggage’ The idea that these guys will *find* this woman are facilitated by articles, and media images of guys who supposedly do. In reality, from my years of singles events and dating, rarely do any of them find this [unless they are very wealthy and can buy a trophy wife] A story recently told to me of my friend’s boss [rich, living in an $18000 per month townhouse, mid 60s, recently divorced] wanted to find a woman in her 30s. He went to the high priced ‘sales events’ so called singles mixers, where wealthy men pay big bucks to find an under 35 yr old women [kind of like events for escorts, only the women are not technically prostitutes].
he found one but rejected her because she was a different religion. He finally ‘settled’ for a woman in her 50s [which his friends were all introducing him to women more close to his age range — he finally had to give in]
I think this is the real picture for many of these men. Maybe not the ones on Patti Stanger’s ‘Millionaire matchmaker’ but for real life guys not owning their own corporate jets, the reality. What do the guys who get these younger women get anyhow? A woman who wants their money? Sad, in this age when women can support themselves very well.
Also the ‘messed up’ guys and women described in this blog by both the woman and the answer to her, are the *norm*, not the outliers. Most everyone by age 30 [or even age 28] has baggages of all kinds, kids, attitudes formed towards the opposite sex that are hard to lay down, money problems, appearance issues, you name it. Of course, early 20s and teens have their own problems too. We are all human, basically is what is comes down to.
Jeanine says
I am a 50 something, never married career woman. I don’t always have an enormous amount of time for dating, so I have begged off the entire enterprise. For every man who claims that younger women are more ‘easy going’–I would remind them that these same younger women are probably examining that man’s checkbook as his most attractive attribute. Hate to sound so cynical, but I am so sick and tired of listening to male friends whining about how that young thing broke their heart while draining their wallets. Shallow is as shallow does. True relationships may begin with some spark of attraction, but they grow and mature from sharing common values and having fun.
Oh, and by the way–it is quite a bit to expect someone (female) to be ‘easy going’ when they have cared for everyone else, while holding down a demanding job. Evan, you are a bit one-sided–just because some older women value their free time and refuse to suffer fools gladly–doesn’t automatically make them ‘nagging shrews.’ Frankly, I wouldn’t want a man who is so fragile he can’t hold up his end of a dynamic conversation.
For the record, I am not looking at this point in time. It’s just too much work. I also want to have fun–but with an ACTUAL ADULT. By the way, I am easy-going–if I don’t like what’s going on–I just walk. I truly don’t appreciate your thinly veiled sexism. It takes two to tango.
Amy says
I find this bashing at women and men silly. I guess we all have our opinions. I guess everyone has their own opinions. I am against putting down the opposite gender. If you have a heart, you have a heart. If not I will eventually find out:) I did read something a man wrote here stating men get better with age and women don’t. I will argue with that. I am 42, I exercise, have lot of hobbies and no issues meeting men. I have also been told I look 25. Though this is a nice compliment I prefer being 42. Most men where I live do not exercise or are overweight…I don’t know… maybe they got comfortable when they were married. If you want to attract the right person for you, then be the person you always wanted to be. It may not always attract exactly what you want, but you may come close. See when you take care of yourself you attract all types of people and that is a compliment…it can be harder to weed through to get to the right one. The one thing I know is no matter what you he looks like there is nothing like that light inside that shines. 🙂 Some guy wrote on here that men age better so they like younger women which is his excuse. Truth is men have hearts and so do women regardless of age. Women date younger men too.
nick says
excellent post. western women are wanting george cloony and are entitled to him, if they dont get him, or a millionaire (at a push) they tell us all men suck. they are mostly deluded and live in a dream world.
i’m a 45 yr old man, i’ve given up on western women and i’m getting a foreign bride. its costly, to meet pre-vetted women of course, but they are younger, and easier to get along with. goodbye western women – your horrible pieces of nasty work.
Lancellote says
I can tell a real woman by asking three questions. Real women is not how sucessful she has been, buit, how she understand the” real meaning of living”/life.
Lance
Bongstar420 says
I’m 30 yo male and prefer 45+. Why isn’t she looking for younger men?
jason crain says
try getting rejected by women for 20yrs and have start being intetested n you, after they had a bunch of kid. my turn to reject em. lets show single moms how it feels. its all about revenge, payback and its feel good to return the favor.
starthrower68 says
As a single mom, I thank you. Better you should reject us outright than to resent our children and try to create chaos on our lives. You would have no business being around my kids.
donna says
I’ve married and divorced two men who were exactly my age. My second husband was 49 when I met him and dated children. He said that girls in their twenties think that sex is a relationship. That is easy, seamless. But he married me. Easy turned out to be what he wanted and within a year he cheated on me with a child. He told me that it was an ego thing, A child begging him for change made him feel like a man. When he needed to talk about feelings, it was me, not her that he talked to. Fragile egos are not up to my standards and I did not want him back.
My first husband dates children and makes no pretense why he does so. He has a child with one of his girlfriends and although he loves his child, has no desire to be with the mother. He has different women (I do mean plural) every week for all the freaky sex he wants. He would, however remarry me in a minute.
The 42 year old mom, whose question started this post, is absolutely correct. There is nothing wrong with her and most older men would tell he that. Men choose young girls because they don’t have to make a choice. They can have everything their way. Grown women cost.
Men understand equity. They know that the world does not revolve around them and they also know that the woman are not pieces of meat. In the end, they settle for women who have drive, spunk, class, standards, and a backbone. When they make a choice, they chose an equal, someone who is in the same phase of life they are in, a woman who understands them and one who can become their best friend.
I have a lot of male friends and they always choose a woman their age for a serious relationship. The ones who date young girls are so damaged older women don’t want them. Sadly, young girls only want their money.
Rather than teach older women to compromise their values, it might be better to encourage young women to raise their standards. Perhaps they have the attention of older men, but they don’t have the man.When you walk in a room, there are men looking at the twenty years old girls and there are men looking for stunning older women. Be what you want to attract.
I am 53 and while I agree that quality men are hard to find, they are out there. An older women in good shape and in control of her life has plenty of choices among men who are in good shape and in control of their lives. Look for a man who married young and divorced after ten or more years. They know how to commit.
A young man in his early thirties surprised me with a comment he made a few days ago. He said men don’t want a woman every man has had. Apparently old fashioned morality is not quite dead. Easy… has plenty of good times… In my opinion it is better to be hard to get, but worth the effort.
Scott says
This really isn’t bad advice. Although, I feel the blanket statements about men engaging younger women comes off as a bit ageist.
At 46 and twice divorced, I tend to agree with the earlier supposition that I am more cautious about who I date. I have dated both older and younger than myself, although younger only by 6-7 years.
Where I currently find myself stuck is when trying to engage women of my age, most of what I’ve run into, falls into one of two categories…
1. Damaged goods. This runs the gamut from DUI’s and criminal assault records, to just being undateable after having had the rug pulled from beneath them after 20 yrs of marriage and they aren’t fit to even be sniffing around the dating scene yet, to an entire host of other “fun” issues.
2. The superiority complex that goes along with these confident, secure women. Personally… I don’t really care how great YOU think you are. I care how great I think you are. So, yes… You telling me all about it is kind of immediately a turn off. Especially if you think you’re great for something you recently managed to do in your career, and I think you’re great for the way you took in that stray dog that you now cohabitate with.
I couldn’t begin to count the number of women who get upset when you don’t share the same amount of interest in their accomplishments.
Now, if your only interests ARE your accomplishments, then we really never had anything in common to begin with.
When I date it isn’t a job interview. I don’t want the run down on your past life, or your accomplishments, necessarily. I want to hang out with you, engage in pleasant activities, and slowly get to know who you are. I’m not interested in being superficially examined as an applicant for your attentions either. I’m not going on a date with you to enjoy yet another “job interview”. It’s almost as if people have completely forgotten how to even date. This may, or may not, be what an earlier poster was referring to when he said women should relax. I will state clearly that this should go for both sexes.
As for the younger women older men angle? Who cares? Seriously?
I’ve attracted more than my fair share of attention from 20 somethings. I’m not interested in them and can usually scare them off simply by stating that I’m old enough to be their father. On the few occasions that that hasn’t worked, I can always switch to the old, “So… You want me to set you up with my 25yr old son?”
If a young woman is of age of consent, then who really gives a hoot if she wants to date an older man? Whether it turns out to be the love of a lifetime, or her using him as a walking ATM… Who cares? How does this affect YOU?
I listen to the negative comments surrounding it, and it’s rather amusing. The “cougars” seem to catch a break, but not the “cradle robber”? You’ll spout vitriol over an age difference, but I dare say no one would say a word if we were discussing interracial relationships. Is ageism any different than racism?
So far it sounds like most of the posters here need to learn to “relax”.
judy says
Try and find us 141 – I’m not cynical, bitter and I can no longer bear children.
How does a 60 year old woman sound to you? (I’m young spirited, pretty, slim, longish hair, bright and have some money)
Hey!
Quote And I really am loathe to generalize, but if some of these posts are indicative of the thought processes and attitudes of average “older” single women, then I’ll stick to dating women in their 20s.
Would you girls want to date a stick-in-the-mud older guy, who is cold, stoic, emotionally distant, and devoid of passion and excitement unquote
judy says
Sorry bis to comment 152 – I clicked too soon
What makes you think that age is the concern anyway?
I perfectly understand that a guy of your age would not want to go out with a woman of 60 – but it doesn’t necessarily follow that a girl in her 20s will be warm, open, and emotionally available.
:o)
JoJoe says
I’ve been dating again after a long sabbatical. I’m older and mature and would like an older mature man. But they seem to be no fun or stuck in routine or looking STILL for that perfect “IMAGE”.
But my big problem is their sex drives… oh so slow or impotent. Once a night, come on. And then there is activity time, they can’t seem to walk a mile or ski or ride a bike or climb a hill or much of anything. They are so lazy or just want to watch sports or drink beer. Others in 1/2 good health want to watch movies, take a drive, cook a meal. Sooooo borrriiing.
So I gravitate to the guys 20 years younger than me. Ya, talk about fun, and girls wanna have fun. Whoo. sex drives that match mine, YES!
They can run, they can dance, they don’t give a shit about dinner, they can eat anything. They don’t fall asleep when they drink, they laugh and laugh large. They have goals, dreams, no bagage. They are in the NOW the music, the techno. They don’t want babies and neither do I.
They are creative, excited about life, daring, interesting. Some are into their studies and can discuss many topics without sounding like a Mr. Know it all. They’re Greaaaaaaatttttttttttt.
I still think young, live young. I live hard. I expect hard!
Young girls with older men, for what? money? go for it girls, love what you’re doing for me.
And besides, most relationships are going to end. So might as well have fun getting to that end.
What the hell happened to men after 40? What the hell is going on in their lives? So damned bitter, so much crap, and their “crazy” ex wives. Own it dudes!
And to those men who say, they don’t want a women who’s had other men. Yet, they’re off to the races trying to score as many as they can get. Sure, that makes sense.
Nor do we want to continue this Whore-Madonna complex, BS. Get lost with your boxes and your need for control. Get lost. I love my life.
Jackie Gordon says
JoJoe,
That was the perfect end response to a long string of boring depressed ones. GET IT GiRL!!!!! LOVE IT! You make me proud!
monalisa says
for that 70% ‘i don’t bother myself by seeking for financial stabled men bcz all the men who proposed me are rich people. my problem is that I cant find a man who is sexually as I want. you can live with someone who has less money but you cant sleep with men who don’t stimulate you.
Liza says
Can’t resist sharing insight in the hope of bolstering a bit of optimism. Here are some suggestions gleaned from personal experience:
1) There are creeps and gems in both genders, at every age. Dating is more fun if you already have a life you love and view it as part of the adventure, and not a mission.
2) As an accomplished, independent woman myself, I seem to have a better experience with men who have bright, strong mothers. These men appear better equipped to interact with our kind.
3) Some successes in life don’t correlate directly with effort. I suspect dating is one of them. The less compelled I am, the more popular I seem to be. Perhaps this brings out the “easy and fun” attributes the men seem to find attractive.
Best of luck to all and I hope this helps.
Scott says
Quite possibly the best post so far in this entire thread.
Jill says
I just spent two hours reading through all of these comments. I have never been married, nor do I have children by my own choice. Where is the real true love? Why in the world does it have to be broken down into business and youth? Marriage – business..Older chasing the youth. Is it rare for me to think romance still exists for both sexes of all ages? The whole comment section has saddened me.
neil says
Speaking as a man I feel sorry for women, they’ve been sold a pup and many don’t realize it. From little girls they are told they are princesses and only expect to marry the “full package” whatever that might be?. Those guys are in high demand. So what’s in modern marriage for men?…..ermm..nothing……you work long hours to pay the mortgage so you don’t see your family anyways, you have hardly any rights to your kids you have should divorce strike, and your missus could just up and leave you on a whim..because she has fallen out of love with you.
Women try to date up- into a small pool of wealthy good looking men. Guys date down into a much wider pool of women, plus there are more choices for guys. Date around, or just opt out — its selfish sure, but lifes a damn site easier. I love feminism…..women can now work long hours, bring up the kids, pay the bills, do it all as a singleton (empowered)……..i can just stay single and go fishing , and society’s ok with that….cool…..
starthrower68 says
I’ve been doing that for 10 years. I’ve also found being single isn’t so bbad. There are plenty of women choosing that path too.
tamara says
@Verbosity #11:
“Regarding money, demands and compromises…my opinion is that men should never, ever commingle money (or loan, or borrow from, etc) with a woman. Why would a woman care how much a man made unless she thought she would benefit from it in some way? By not commingling money (even if married), a potential area of conflict is solved. Further, since women can do the same jobs and earn the same (actually more than) as men for the same work, they should not care one bit what a man makes.”
Lol men who try following that principle will find that many of the women they consider desirable will not put up with that. Speaking as a very (conventionally at least) attractive woman in my mid-20s with many options, I certainly wouldn’t. And men shouldn’t be surprised by that.
When I was in my early 20s and just dating casually, I went out with some very successful guys but I also was dated some younger guys with more average incomes. Money didn’t matter that much anyway, at that age. But now seeing the way so many guys talk about women losing value as they age, I realise the smart thing to do is to marry a man I love who is Also financially well-to-do when i’m at ‘high value’ in my 20s or early 30s. If he divorces me in the future, I’ll still have quite alot of financial security and will have less need for another partner.
This is partly why so many pretty young women go for rich guys. Yes it’s partly biological, but it’s partly cos of a fear that they may be discarded when they get older anyway, so they might as well safeguard their financial future. I’m not gonna marry just any well-to-do man who I don’t love, but never would I marry a man I love who isn’t financially secure.
Lucey D says
And therein lies the problem and why women like you perpetuate the problem. You are letting men control you. Your worth is tied up in a man finding you desirable, so you are going to use him now before he discards you in the future. Games. And no self respect or self worth for anything beyond your sexual value.
Beth says
Dear Joan, I really do appreciate this letter you wrote.
It IS frustrating out there to find good quality men in their 40s 50s… but isn’t that true for any age? lol.!!!!!!! I think you have to determine what qualities you’re looking for and stick to that list… and don’t settle! Be true to who you are. Find hobbies and interests that interest you and maybe you’ll find a like-minded man with the same interests.
I am a 58 year old woman, still attracting younger men. I look in my 40s. I have a date tomorrow with a 41 year old. It’s not about age, it’s about who you are.
Be happy with you first and then pursue …. kindest regards, Beth
Red says
I love how all these girl’s assume they’re all “wonderful, sexy, and smart” and it’s the men that have the shortcomings. If you’re really wonderful, sexy, and smart you wouldn’t be mewling on the internet about how unfair the dating game is. You’re likely not as smart as you think and though you might be wonderful, sexy to men will never be Ms. Wrinkles Superiorpants. Especially when there’s a 26-year-old counterpart out there with your same credentials snatching up your perfect man because the light hasn’t quite left her eyes yet. You should probably do some traveling with the time you have left. Let the dumb monkey-men play with their Barbies.
NewPNW says
One “danger” in trying tone more easy going and less demanding is that you can attract the wrong types of guys i.e. those interested in open relationships, threesomes, etc. Also, I have had some guys expect me to be available according to their schedule and were upset that I actually had a life when I seemed so ” free and easy going” early on. So, not being true to yourself in an effort to appear more accommodating does not work either. ( I have done it and the above was who I attracted.) Finding some balance is key and is difficult.
Garret says
Great point. Balance is key. Yes, you don’t want to say, “Oh sure, call anytime you get the urge to, like 2:00 am when you can’t sleep and I have an appointment at 8:30 am.”
But at the same time, I have had women tell me only to call in very small windows of time on specific days. I thought, “This woman is crazy.” I deleted her number from my phone right in front of her and told her that on the bright side, she didn’t have to worry about me calling her when I wasn’t allowed to.
Reasonable to me would be setting a time not to call after so that you can get the sleep you need. Also, not calling during working hours can also be important. Setting a time to chat during lunch is reasonable. Saying, “only call between 6 and 7 on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and between 3 and 8 on Sunday. yeah, that isn’t going to work.
Frankly some women with their careers plus soccer mom duties really don’t have time for a relationship anyway. Might be better just to concentrate on the kids until they are all off to college.
Braveheart says
As a man of 59 this is a topic dear to my heart, and one I might add spent a great deal of time researching. In recent years women have been the ones leaving marriages in droves and statistics put this as high as 75% in some areas of North America. The main reason listed are not the usual three A’s ( Adultery, Addiction and Abuse), but a sense of unhappiness/falling out of love etc. which in in a sense would be viewed if the shoe were on the male foot as a “Mid Life Crisis”.
Many Men in this category ( those who have not committed the crimes against marriage listed above and have been divorced) , who used to think their situation was rare or unique to themselves, know this is not the case now. Men are now comparing notes online and are very leary of having long term relationships with women in their 40’s for this reason, after being what’s now termed “Frivorced”. Women on the verge of menopause are viewed as potential bombs, many of the men in this category have already watched their wives become someone they no longer recognize once they hit their early to mid 40’s.
Now I know the response to this is probably going to be a chorus of “Bitter/Mysogynist/Loser” , but it is the simple truth as sizable number middle aged men post divorce see it. Further making this more difficult for women is that women are generally far pickier than the men and have more unrealistic expectations than men. One of the largest online dating services “OKCupid” has done many studies on the dynamics of “who choses who”, the latest indicates that the women found 80% of men unattractive, the majority not willing to date someone under 6′ , the men on the other hand found only 20% of the women unattractive and really had no problem dating women of any height.
v says
Hi all
Wow is all i can say, I read a few pages to this and then stopped. We are all wonderful and unique in our way and our genders are disfferent too. Happiness comes from within and so does sense of peace and being as one. We all have a journey in life and gender role and how we live our lives have rapidly changed we are the generation to feel this shift. Its impacting on men, women and how we live our lives as families in the western world. The next generation will have a better handle on this and the generation down again even better. I feel both genders are struggling within qhat we have created only through thought judgement and expectations. When you realise all source comes from the internal eye energies will shift ie if you dont like what your seeing change yoir own lense. This takes commitment and work , live each day likeita your last, have fun and love freely and be present without ego or expectations. V (single for 3 years having fun loving life ) 🙂 x
Rose says
Sorry to break it to you old men, but younger women will only go with you if they can use you for your money……I dated an older man and I was not impressed and really turned off by him, because I am a younger women and old men are a sexual turn off to me, I find them really sexually unattractive!!……a lot of other younger women think they same as me, and if they do go with older men it is only to use them for money and security, but they secretly hate you a lot of the time, and would probably leave you if they could get a younger man who is on the same level as her sexually, and shares her youthful outlook on life…..and to end with, younger women don’t respect older men as they know the older man is only trying to use her for sex, quite honestly I am disgusted with some older men who feel they are entitled to a young women, well- we want young men!!!!!!!
Junglekitty says
Maybe its me, or maybe its that I don’t live in California, but I’m just not seeing this man-dating-women-20-years-his-junior thing that everyone is talking about. In fact have observed a real fad of “cougar hunting” out there and am regularly approached by men 20 years younger than me. (Ick.) But here is the thing that I have found- when I see handsome guys my age or slightly older who also have advanced university degrees (I’m working on a PhD) and solid careers, they don’t message me. Everyone else does, but not them. I don’t know who these guys fancy. Maybe they are the ones dating 20 somethings where I live. I look pretty good and younger than my actual age (put 20 years and 20 lbs on a supermodel and you have me) and if these guys actually met me, they would probably find plenty of reasons not to date me (none of which are in my on-line profile) but I never have that chance to disappoint them. Hmmm. It makes me wonder whats going on there.
Garret says
“Maybe its me, or maybe its that I don’t live in California, but I’m just not seeing this man-dating-women-20-years-his-junior thing that everyone is talking about. In fact have observed a real fad of “cougar hunting” out there and am regularly approached by men 20 years younger than me.”
I don’t doubt that one bit. But how many of those Cougar hunters, even those just a few years younger are serious about a very LTR?
If I may, let me share some insight into the much younger man. He is often perturbed by the women his age when he decides to go Cougar hunting. He is tired of having to work so hard to get what he wants. Those younger women are in hot demand and they know it. He sees older women easier. They may or may not be easy, but they are always “easier” than the younger women. For one thing, the Cougars see the younger guys as “yummy,” and this affects how you act. Like it or not, older women will see some younger guys as very attractive, when younger women may see the guy as somewhat average.
Younger guys also know it is easier to have a “long” short term relationship with an older woman.
Younger guys know you have your own resources while he may not have built his up yet. While older women are not anywhere near as generous with their money, they are more generous a younger woman because the older woman often has more money to be generous with, and she sees him as “yummy.” LOL Anyway, for many younger guys this is an attractive thing…for a while. But as he “grows up,” and gains his own resources, that may actually reverse. He may in fact resent her unfairly or not, while believing that she tries to wear the pants because she makes the money. This of course only applies to those guys who are just getting their careers started, and or went into career fields that don’t pay very well. The point here is that even if you aren’t paying off his college loans, you still have your own money so he doesn’t have to spend as much of his to be with you. He will outgrow this if he is successful at all in life.
While most men may go “eww” at the thought of marrying an older woman, very few go “eww” at the thought of having sex with her, if she is at all decent looking. For some, decent looking isn’t even required. Many guys see sex like pizza. You know the old saying about pizza? “Pizza ranges from good to great. There is no such thing as a bad pizza.” Well some guys view sex the same way. Sex with an ugly woman is better than no sex at all, in their mind.
I’ll never forget the first time was exposed to this. I was early 20s, around 22 or 23. I friend was hitting up an older woman, not exaxctly huge, but not built like the twenty somethings we normally chased. In fact, I am sure thinking back, that men her age and older probably thought she was a good looking woman. Well he asked me to stop drinking fairly early because he wanted me to drive his motorcycle home. Yes, he actually rode his motorcycle to the club. We hadn’t actually intended to go to a club. Went to a movie first, and then the guy with the car bailed almost right away. Anyway, I hadn’t even finished half of my beer, so I agreed. The next day, he was bragging to everybody who would listen, that he had bagged an “old hog.” That was right before “Cougar” became the commonplace name. It was being used, but not as much as it is now. I remember one of the guys asking if she was really that fat and he said, “huge.” I remember thinking that she wasn’t huge, but was certainly not built for speed either. I would have described her as a bit chunky.
Many younger guys see older women as “practice.” They expect to learn things from her. Things that will make them more successful with younger women later on. This can even be guys in their late 20s and early 30s. Even if they aren’t totally inexperienced, older women still represent an opportunity to learn more. She’s older and wiser, or at least that is the stereotype.
But, there are the very very very very rare guys who actually want an older woman. But the reality is, I can almost assure you that on any personality type testing, these guys don’t test as leader types. But, that may be perfect for some women who do want to wear the pants in the relationship. It may be perfect for her. But you still have to know going in, if you are dating a younger guy, you better have your radar on and antenna up. Pay attention. Even Evan admitted to loving older women but still ended up with a woman his age, and he even admits that everybody else was asking, “why be with an older woman when you can be with a younger one, while he asked the opposite.” The point is, most men don’t want to marry an older woman. Some men do anyway, and then when the honeymoon is over ask themselves what the heck were they thinking. I have a few friends that did and then bailed out of those marriages a few to several years later. To a man, they admitted that she simply got “old” faster than was to his liking.
None of this may sound fair but life isn’t fair. We live in a society where marriage is no longer really required, for anything. 60 or 70 years ago, a man might be looked down on if he hadn’t married by the time he was 30, but now a man who hasn’t married by the time he is 50 is just another guy. Society doesn’t really looking down on people for not getting married. I’m not talking about mom and aunt Jenny who want you to provide them with some kids to play with, I am talking about society. There is so little left in marriage, compared to the risks involved, why get married if you aren’t getting what you really want in a woman. Let’s see, there’s kids which means you will soon be #2 in her heart. There’s divorce, and oh, she is likely to slap a restraining order on you as a power play during the divorce. There goes your gun rights, and many other rights. Add to this the outrageous level of child support. Like a friend in the Navy who had two girls. He brought home about $2,000 a month,at the time, and $850 of it went to child support. Crazy. And this is just scratching the surface. So looking at it as risk vs reward, why would a guy want to marry unless he is getting a woman he feels is totally awesome? Not perfect, just awesome.
I am frankly tired of even talking about it because I know people only hear what they want to hear. But I wish I could have a dollar for every 30’s to 40s woman who thinks she is going to find a young buck to marry her, but ends up going from short term to short term. It’s like alternate universes existing in the same plane. The young bucks know going in that it isn’t forever, and when it ends, it is just simply a day that he knew was going to come sooner or later. For her, she thinks it’s like in her earlier days when she was dating guys her age, and it just didn’t work out. She can’t accept in her mind that he knew all along that he would eventually bail out. But it’s true much much more often than not.
I’m not saying not to date younger guys. Why would I? Women are still going to fall for that cute younger guy and date him. My advice is actually the same as Evan’s. If you are going to date a younger guy, better keep your mind on the fact that it’s just fun, and not serious. I would also add however, since it came up in another topic, if you aren’t built for NSA sex, and want to know, or believe going in that there is a very good likelihood that it ends in marriage, you really need to rethink dating younger guys. If you are the opposite if you are more interested in fun than commitment, than I would highly recommend dating younger guys. Karmic Equation is a good example. She noted in one of her posts that I read, that she is really more interested in just having fun and not worried about getting married. For her, I would actually recommend sticking with the younger guys because they are far less likely to even want to push for commitment.
One last note on the PhD peers. What do you see when you go to “bring the spouse” functions that draw your peers together in one place? Are most of them married to fellow PhDs? Or is it a mixed bag, a couple of PhDs, a few Masters, a lot of Bachelor’s, some Associates, and a handful of high school grads? That’s what I would expect. Men with educations are not typically looking for a peer to marry. I think the fact that so many college grads marry each other has far less to do with men looking for it than the fact that so many people now have degrees, and having one puts you in constant contact with others who have them, and then love happens.
Since I don’t now you, don’t know what you look like, and don’t know what you write in an online profile, there is no wy for me to honestly judge why I think men would not message you. However, men with PhD’s tend to be seen as leaders, and often make a fair amount of money, and like it or not, that is very attractive to women. I think Evan has a post about women trading looks and youth for money. I am not sure what it says, but I saw a YouTube video where women were shown pictures of guys and asked to rate them. Then salaries were added to the pictures and a guy who had been given a very high score was given a very low salary in the $25K region, while a guy who had been given an average of about 4 was given a salary of over $200,000. Then women were once again asked to rate them. The guy went from an average of 4 to an average of over 7. Some women rated him above that, some giving him 8’s and 9’s and one flat out said 10. The guy with the low salary but good looks dropped a significant amount.
So my guess is that a guy who is a PhD, or even has a Masters, is good looking, charming, and basically has it together…he is definitely going to be the type that can and does attract younger women. And let’s clear something up right now…that whole thing about a “trophy wife” is BS. Outside of a few rare men, they care much less about what others think and what his own penis thinks. In other words, he wants the hot younger wife because she turns him on, not because she looks good on his arm. I actually know an older guy who has a hot younger wife and was accused of just wanting a trophy wife. His crude reply was that he didn’t care what she looked like on his arm, he cared what she looked like on his D***.
I know that it isn’t very popular among women with your level of education, but maybe you might want to open up to a broader range of men. Drop any eduction requirements. Send out a few emails to guys that look good to you. Read their profile and if you can clue into something intellectual that he may like, strike up a conversation based on that. Me, I like history. If, for instance, there was something in current events about something historical, and you struck up a conversation about it, I would be hooked in to at least talking. That opens the door to getting to know each other, so I have to assume it would work with other guys.
Also, maybe downplay all of the power stuff you may have in your profile, and try to appeal to the man side of men. Are you extremely affectionate? If so, highlight that. I think men respond to when you build a romantic picture in their mind that matches their idea of romance. For instance, if you love to travel and want a man to travel with you, describe a setting, and more importantly, how you see you two interacting in that setting. If for instance, you wrote that you love the idea of cuddling on a balcony, along the French Riviera, while watching the sun go down, and sipping on a sweet French wine, that would appeal to me. For another man, it might appeal less with the cuddling and more with just sharing conversation in the same setting. So think about what you prefer, and then state it and hopefully the right guys will see it and read it.
EmeraldDust says
Thank you Garrett for explaining why I was not at all complemented when these 20 something (or 30 something) kids wrote to me online. They think a few compliments like “Your Hot” are going to float my boat. They think we mature women are so desperate for a relationship that we’ll bang some college kid the same age as our children. My roomie told me I should feel complemented, I told her I actually feel insulted. I’ve raised one child, I do not want another.
I read the dating websites, the ones for men, and the ones for women. I know how these young guys feel about the older women they give fake complements to. I’ve read those websites and they say things like “Women are like poop, the older they get, the easier they are to pick up”.
So when these punk 20 year olds write and tell me that they can’t believe I’m really 59, and that I am so hot, and that age doesn’t matter, I know that they really just think I’m a desparate piece of crap, an easy lay, and maybe even a potential cash cow. I usually just ignore them, or answer them kindly with a “Thanks but no thanks” if they persist, but in the future, perhaps I won’t be so kind.
I really don’t want to be their social worker, helping them work out their frustrations with women their own age or their “mommy issues”. If they can’t attract women their own age and they want to use a woman for their own purposes, let ’em shell out the money for a hooker.
starthrower68 says
Emerald Dust, you win the internet today. 😄
starthrower68 says
Let me add, what is both funny and telling is that when you turn the turn the young guys down, they seem genuinely shocked. But the question is usually, “don’t you like sex?”
Realist says
Everyone gets older, what’s the big deal? Get over it! You prefer the alternative?
Mike Nike says
Men are also far more sexual creatures. Men give it away because they want it, women somehow require payment in one way or another. To her, a man either deserves or doesn’t deserve it. To men …. we just want it, now, upside down, and against the wall, yes, even if we were mad at you ten minutes ago.
Lucey D says
Just stop commenting. Really. Ignorance is bliss, man. ALL of my single girl friends (30s and 40s) are waaay more sexual than their male counterparts… we are having to date 2 and 3 men at a time to get our sexual needs fulfilled so I don’t know where all these men with these high sex drives are… send them my way, please!
starthrower68 says
Feeling blessed by this thread. 😃
Fran says
Wow I don’t know how old this thread is but I still want to add my comment.
I couldn’t read half the discussion because it was exhausting and in parts quite irritating (from both sides).
I’m 35, I have a busy life and I have only recently decided to try online dating. I have always thought that love just happens, but it never did. The only time I had a almost proper relationship was at the age of 34. It did just happen as I met him in my (ex) hiking group. But it was so emotionally and psychologically abusive that after the breakup I ended up in therapy and in blogs like this. Until then I had never been interested in psychology or relationship advice.
Surely I learnt a lot. But I am also frustrated at seeing how unattractive my age is online. So I do sympathize with women 35+.
Anyway. I would really like to have Evan’s opinion on what follows, please.
I agree with Evan that many men don’t even consider doing self-help and changing their habits and that women have the power to change only themselves.
I agree with the guys who claim that men want a easy life.
But there is a difference between easy and lazy. Between “just being yourself” and not wanting to grow as a person.
I find it very offensive and patronising when I read profiles of men who are divorced with kids, or who are 50 and never had a long term relationship, and yet say: “no baggage please” or “no psychos please”. I think something like that is already a sign that those men have baggage as well.
Who on Earth doesn’t have baggage when they are over 30?
And how do you value how big someone’s baggage is? Surely everybody thinks their own baggage is smaller than other people’s!
It’s easy to say women are all psychos, but just because we are more emotional doesn’t mean that our problems are bigger.
Personally speaking, the ex who broke my heart had an awful amount of problems himself. I don’t know if he is a narcissist, a sociopath or just an immature a-hole… But I felt like I was paying for what he thought his exes (and the whole world) did to him.
I was very inexperienced and I put up with a lot of his anger, disrespect, silent treatment, etc.
Is that what men consider as easy life? Doing as you please and having a doormat always available because she doesn’t know better?
Of course a 20 year old is more likely immature enough to put up with poor behaviour.
Of course a 20 year old will heal faster if you break her heart.
And of course ladies in their 20s are more physically attractive, less under pressure to have children, etc.
But I do want to believe that there are also men my age who are after something better than that.
Ames says
Evan said “there are quality men out there–even if they’re few and far between.” He’s absolutely right–there are wonderful single guys available. The problem comes in where women are usually relationship oriented and not few. It’s like an impossible game of musical chairs. For every stable, relationship oriented guy there are twe try women waving, “Pick me, pick me!” It sets up an imbalance and leaves guys getting away with a lot of cruddy behavior and women knowing the next several coming down the pike will be worse. I love men and appreciate all the ways they’ve contributed to my life. But I too want something easy, tired of it being a fight. most of us don’t have the luxury of having a calm 40 hr week job. Most self supporting women are putting in ten hour days. I will continue to be open, hopeful, carry myself in my feminine way. I will keep a balance of how much time I spend trying to meet man after man. I’m never sorry after an evening out with friends but often feel time wasted after another bad date. Wishing you all the best in your search.
Kirk says
“Where are all the mentally healthy men are?”
I’ll tell you…
If he is mentally healthy, he most likely is in his mid to late 30’s, without any kids, or baggage,and don’t want to be bothered with someone that has kids already.
Short and simple.
XYZXYZXYZXYZ says
Yup!! But we do want to be bothered as in bothered GO OUT AND DATE. Men are tired of seeing all these girls that want to be ladies continually dating these worthless Non Emotionally AVAILABLE men aka A-Holes. Seriously girls, your have to ask this??? Where are all the Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men? Either all in your da** “just friends” bu**sh** box, OR we have OUR D**N Sh** TOGETHER (graduated college, graduate school graduates, have our careers, make good decent money, have our 401k’s, have great PTO, doing fun things)… We’ve been WAITING TO DATE YOU. But all us (Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men) get is nope, nope or you girls have the waiting for Mr. Adonis written all over your faces. ALL WHILE YOU GIRLS OR EM WANT TO BE LADIES BUT CONTINUALLY KEEP DATING THESE PATHETIC LOSER GUYS THAT DON’T HAVE SH** GOING FOR THEM AKA (no job, or shitty job they hate, still live with mommy and daddy, don’t have reliable vehicle, aren’t ambitious.
When you girls/want to be ladies, become ladies get with the program and start saying YES YES YES to us Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men ya know when we type guys ask you out on a DATE and you ladies won’t lambast and emphatically say no at the top of your lungs. So ladies the only way you’re going to get the Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men aka (marriage material guys) is to lose a lot (not all) but a lot of your cra**y “requirements” and get serious “requirements” as in good job, career, good family, reliable vehicle, owns his home, aka has his sh*t together you LADIES HAVE to say YES to a date with us and get to know us. Not this BS 5 min fantasy la la perfect Adonis BS. Otherwise you ladies will be stuck with the EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE A-HOLE D-BAGS that don’t want anything to do with you except wham bam thanks now buh bye.
JoeJo says
Best to find a widower
But my GF with 3 kids married a good guy with 4 kids
Basically The Brady Bunch
Still together 8 yrs and counting.
Just live a good life
Be your personal best
Life is not all about coupling.
Life can be vast and you never know where it will bring you
If you get out of the box and expand your possibilities
Love will find you maybe not in a twosome but universally
Free your mind free your mind lol
m says
I think this author really has his stuff together. Loved what he had to say. Dating coach. I never knew they existed but it seems like everyone needs a coach nowadays. Why do you think that is?
Yoshi says
No. That’s not the problem. No mentally healthy man would date or marry a divorced woman up her 40’s. You are searching for the impossible, miss.
JoeJo says
“Yoshi” mmm ? “up” her 40’s, mmm?
Maybe too much Nintendo in your innuendo.
Maybe there are no mentally healthy men above 40.
My ace.. your serve..
Lucey D says
The most random, inaccurate, unspecific comment ever… of course a “mentally healthy” man would date a women in her 40s. Many do and will continue to, not only men who are in her dating range but also younger men who want a cougar. Might want to try getting out in the real world
Jill P. says
All I hear are a bunch of extremely jaded men and women who refuse to own their crap and instead blame the opposite sex. America is a dating cess pool at any age.
Ray says
You need to stop blaming women aging for this, for a start it’s insulting to the intelligence of men to reduce everything to biology, the guys are getting older too so aging goes both ways, and the impact of age is overemphasized in these sort of discussions.
As to the guys ignoring 40s 50s women online, they aren’t, mostly they’re sending hate and accusatory mail and playing games (if you want proof search the photos of the age group above your own and you’ll spot just how many men listed as your age look suspiciously like those 20 years older, they’re worse for it than the women). My peers in their 40s online are hostile, it’s like I’m being interrogated, viewed with suspicion and punished for something I haven’t even done (many are trolling). The vibe from many I have to say is an even more antagonistic version of when I had a sudden career jump in my 20s and the men I had been dating suddenly got insecure about this “market value” nonsense saying I “must be up to something” to want to date the same kind of man I grew up with. My “must be up to something” now is I’m approachable, just having a profile (putting myself out there) is apparently evidence. I very quickly found I needed to be curt to get any respect on the net, the contents of my inbox also changed radically when I stated I was looking for men 1-5 years younger and was not interested in older men (I just got sick of the rude mail and the younger guys were nicer to me so I figured I’d give them a chance), it was then I started getting messages from men my age to 5 years older (who had previously ignored or been rude to me) with a very warm “can I convince you to try something different?”, this is the tone of mail a 30 something gets from men in their 50s who knowing it’s a long shot are trying to endear themselves, and the younger guys, yep, they started being rude, (a few new phrases on my profile and changing my seeking criteria was the only difference, so what changed?) Well guess what, any man who doesn’t try to endear himself in the first message gets the delete button regardless of what’s on my profile because me not putting up with a guy being a jerk doesn’t change just because I’m on the net. If you’re a woman online sorry to say but no matter how nice you are in person you do have to be a hardliner on the net to get any respect and you do have to come off as just out of the reach of your target audience for them to be interested or they think you’re unwanted and desperate. I’ve always played things straight so this really pees me off but as long as men are acting this way women are going to have to draw a line in the sand and play to the kind of man they want to date instead of being open handed about it.
I don’t think that it’s the guys my age don’t want peers, I think they go looking for what they know and a sense of control which for them is the dating style and interests of the younger generation they were in the last time they were dating, more so if they’re recently divorced, that so many online are separated tells me that is where a lot of this male insecurity is coming from. Suddenly being single and older and the rebound effect is being taken out on their dates, they’re looking for comfort and familiarity but it’s at the expense of women they are interacting with, I’ve seen a lot of guys too take out their frustrations at their wife on women online.
Anonymous says
Reading this whole blog has made me incredibly sad-we are both at war with each other and its awful. I really want to get back into dating and ultimately find someone to share the rest of my life with, but with all the attitudes on here, I’m not too hopeful. What a shame.
Emma says
Goodness. Where to start? First off, it is not normal for old men to chase young women, despite the statistics, reproduction drive, etc. How many men in late 40s, early 50s, really want to impregnate women? They often have sired children already and don’t want more fo them. The fresh, firm skin argument is understandable (men sag too — get bellies, lose their hair, etc.), but most smart, successful men I know want a woman they can relate to as a peer and companion, not a giggling adolescent, regardless of suppleness. The guys who chase after young flesh — and there are many — are typically not desirable anyway. Most are indiscriinate and poor catches for various reasons. How many women remember being chased by middle aged guys when they were in their teens and 20s? Were any of them desirable? Probably 99 percent of htem were undesirable.
Why do men do this? Their sexual preferences have been shaped by culture — which, in the United States, was shaped by Alfred Kinsey. who spurred promiscuity, encouraged fathers to molest daughters and acquire a predilection for “young, firm flesh,” and pedophilia (look it up) to make selection of mates based upon sex rather than true bonding and destroy the family unit. Go to Europe and you will encounter a surfeit of men who prefer women and relate to women as peers, with women reminding them of a fine wine that gets better with age.
Now, my experience as a woman in her 40s….If I say so myself, I am attractive, well educated, and fit. I attract men in 40s plus. I am currently dating a man in his 50s, who prefers older women. Men in their 50s generally have a lot of emotional baggage from previous marriages…As they age, they also lose their physical appeal. I would not even consider men most men in their 50s and above, based upon their physical appearance alone — the sagging bellies, liver spots, strands of hair hanging on for dear life on top of their heads….
I agree with other sentiments expressed that it is a myth that men look better as they age….No, they just look old, and often times repulsive. If I, as a younger woman, had fallen in love with a peer and aged with him, I could overlook these qualities, but I cannot imagine myself getting physically intimate with these old men….who do chase…People should date peers for the simple reason that you are at the same place/stage in life and are peers, just as you should also seek similar values, upbringings, levels of education, life goals, etc. You can also overlook each other’s physical flaws. As a woman in her 40s, I can overlook some aging in a man in his 50s — that I would, as a 20-something, found repugnant.
I agree with the sentiment that older (and I would say, wiser) people prefer “easy.” WHat that means is a person who can go with the flow, be positive, and not sweat the small stuff, allowing life to assume a certain fludity, level of comfort, and charm. As you get older, you are more likely to value your time and conserve your energy, realizing you don’t have time to indulge people or activities that make you uncomfortable or sap your energy. I will similarly walk away from friends, male and female, who are an energy suck and deprive me of joy, rather than contribute to it. I think it can be summarized as living the wisdom of “The Secret.”
I have a few very intelligent female friends who interrogate me on every little thing, must be disagreeable and act entitled, negative, domineering….They might be quality people, but I Would rather not waste my time. I also knoew intelligent women who are a joy to be around…..I also don’t have time for difficult men….I prefer relationships to be “easy.”
Younger people may possess ease for the simple reason that their personalities and priorities are still taking shape and they are easy to control/dominate. Older men have no business dominating these women, imposing their will, and trying to consume their time/youthful energy since thehy are ‘easy;” Young people should be able to trust and look up to old men, knowing they aren’t chasing young flesh for thier “ease” and “supple, firm skin.”
The ease an older person has is entirely different. They know who they are and chose to trust life, a higher power, and just flow with life…Instead of fighting what doesn’t work, they simply remove themselves….An older man would do better to pursue a woman who understands the wisdom of ease rather than trying to exploit a young person’s naivete and impose one’s will on their life…Let young people grow up and find themselves without having to be molested/harassed/dominated my old men trying to reclaim their youth. Easy youth exploited today by old men become tomorrow’s bitter old women…Leave them alone…
I personally have no respect for older men chasing young girls…..and am happily finding that a lot of older, more mature, established men have no problem dating me. I do appreciate that I no longer have the youthful allure not am as ferile….and that most men in my age range are now married, divorced, or have plenty of baggage. There are also a lot of decent men and good potential partners out there too who are within my age range…
Going back to the concept of ease…You will attract what you are…In order for a woman to find an emotionally available, mentally healthy man, she needs to be a health woman…. Frankly a quality woman wouldn’t want the old farts who are chasing after young flesh anyway. YOu didn’t want those men when you were young, and you certainly don’t want them now…Let them chase and make fools of themselves…and endure the4 mockery,.social stigma, and pity that is afforded them while they delude themselves into thinking they are merely distinguished men.Their prizes usually have daddy issues or are opportunists and will use/abandon these men, and/or laugh about them behind their backs. Guys….if you doubt this happens…read the numerous boards online about how young women realy feel about old guys hitting on them. Most are not flattered…They are disgusted. Young women don’t want you…but some will make exceptions for psychological/financial reasons…If you want to reduce yourself to an old fool….that is your business….
Not sure where I am going with this….I guess I went off an a few tangents.. Take from it what you will….
Chris says
Perhaps the men you are meeting and dating are screwed up because of the rubbish relationships they were in. Instead of judging them, give them a chance to see you… As for you ladies, especially Americans… Open up your dating pool, branch out. You may be surprised of all the wonderful men from all walks of life..
cindy says
My pastor did a sermon about how he has realized that men that say they want a “easy woman” is a code for “I don’t want to change anything about myself” The problem is we should all constantly grow and evolve and that means there will be changes. The pastor stated that a woman of substance challenges her man to be the best man he can be, to do the right thing and to make amends to people or repair what he has broken in relationships with children, parents, friends etc. In other words to be a godly man. I have no problems to work on improving things about myself or my life. I do have a problem with men who think I am entitled, anxious or any other negative adjective because they feel they have grown as far as they need to grow by the time they are 40.
starthrower68 says
Cindy that was a good word. Men don’t want women to change either. But people do change and grow. I will give you fair warning through. You’re prolly going to get some pushback. Gospel related things don’t tend to play well here. But I guess we have to roll with it, as we know it’s going to happen. 🙂
Buck25 says
“Gospel related things don’t tend to play well here”
You think? Listen, with all due respect, if I wanted to hear a sermon, I’d go to church. I don’t, so I don’t. Likewise, if I gave a rat’s rear end for advice on human sexuality and sexual morality that originated from people who themselves copped out on dealing with the problems associated with both, by foregoing sex altogether, I might care what “gospel thinking” on the matter is. Since I consider that advice worth about as much as advice from a blind man on how to paint a sunset, I really don’t care what religion has to say on the subject. Apparently, I’m not alone.
PJay says
Growth for many men after 40 consists of a reduction in net worth after divorce from a woman looking for “growth” of her own.
You want better dating prospects after 40? Lobby to end alimony. You want to keep the status quo like the feminists do? Live with a grey final 25 years to your life if you are a divorced woman.
Cindy says
Sorry PJay, but your experience isn’t universal. Before I say this, I am not saying I am perfect, but I am saying that each person has control over how they choose to grow or recover from a bad situation at any age. When I divorced at 34, my ex and I split the value of the family home. I had worked full time making the same amount as he did for years. We both have masters degrees and made decent salaries. I did not receive alimony and 12 years later he has never paid one cent of child support for our son. For years, I worked a job and started my own business, while still raising my son by myself. I sent my son to a very prestigious private school, built a very nice home and I attended every Lacrosse game, stage play, football game, parent meeting, PTA meeting, chaperoned field trips, etc, that my son had. I am now 46, my son is now a senior, and will leave for college in the Fall. I will once again pay for college by myself, as I downsize from my house and buy myself a nice condo. My final years will not be “grey” as you say, although you sound like you wish they were. I am that exception to the rule, who still looks like the “maxim chick” – think “Naomi Campbell”. Yet I am still growing, I’ve started a second business, I attend bible study weekly, I have saved more money and invested in the past two years, I am working out twice a week. You see I will always be growing mentally, spiritually, physically, emotionally and financially until the day I die. You and many men have chosen to stop growing, maybe because you feel you have arrived. I don’t feel that there is an end to my growth until it actually ends, then I have arrived.
twinkle says
@Cindy: I’m happy for u that u’re continuing to lead a fulfilling life after your divorce, but I think u’ve put some words into PJay’s mouth.
“You and many men have chosen to stop growing, maybe because you feel you have arrived. I don’t feel that there is an end to my growth until it actually ends, then I have arrived.” That commitment to growing is commendable, but PJay never said or implied that he or other men aren’t continuing to grow too. I do, however, think there are men who feel that their female partners nag or pester them into “growing”/changing and make them feel inadequate in the process. Although there are exceptions, I don’t think a majority of men are against changing or improving by 40. I could be overly-optimistic abt the male gender though, as the small sample of guys I know are mostly committed to the pursuit of excellence in some form or other, in their youth, middle age and beyond.
Cindy says
Hello twinkle, if you are a guy, I commend you for responding the way that you did. Another guy needed to use the word “idiot”. Anyway, it depends on the men’s definition of “nagging and pestering”. Some men feel a suggestion is nagging and to assist them by doing an action is “pestering” Later when the woman no longer says anything to these men about changes and just moves forward making her own changes and growth, the man later says that he now feels inadequate because the woman has changed in a different direction, outgrown him or has some how emasculated him, by no longer needing him. By the way, I have been accused of not caring because I wasn’t extremely involved with trying to help a guy with his problems, go figure.
JoeK says
My pastor did a sermon about how he has realized that men that say they want a “easy woman” is a code for “I don’t want to change anything about myself”
Sorry, if the pastor is a man, he’s an idiot.
See, men don’t speak in code – we (generally) say what we mean. And what we mean when we say we want an “easy woman” is just as Evan described – someone who’s easy to get along with, who doesn’t get wound up over the little things. Read the rest of what Evan says about how men and women approach dating, and you’ll understand better why it’s that way.
Russell says
I agree JoeK. It sounds to me like the pastor was trying to give a sermon on how Christians often believe, but don’t want to change. So he was reaching for an example of ways people don’t want to change. There are many things he could have chosen because the reality is, nobody wants to change. Heck, the joke is that women would drag their husbands to therapy and say, “fix him.” Like they don’t also need to change. The hardest thing for humans to do is change. Change is painful. It can be the best thing for you, but we often have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming. The end of that movie, “The day after Tomorrow,” alluded to that when she said that we have to be pushed to the brink before we change.
But I agree with you. I try to explain it in a way people can understand by saying that for men, life is like being on an old sailing ship. Most of life is like being at sea, where many days are filled with danger and struggle and hard work. When it comes to our relationships, and our woman, we want it to be like a home port. After all of that struggling, danger and hard work, we want peace, safety, fun and affection. We aren’t looking for a woman that challenges us, or tries to fill our day with more struggle, and it does not make us weak or inferior. It makes well rounded.
Evan noted this to an extent in his blog post about the woman who talked about interracial dating. I don’t remember which one, but he talked about how he and many of his friends dated and married non-Jewish women because easy was better than demanding, or something to that effect.
I see a lot of women on her extremely frustrated that men aren’t just toeing the line and changing to be what they want men to be. Well, I think they have a long unhappy life ahead of them if they can’t just learn to love, respect, and appreciate men for what and who they are, because we aren’t going to change. We are who we are, take us or leave us. We are fine with whatever choice you make. Just don’t try to have it both ways. That we aren’t fine with.
Cindy says
Yes, my pastor is a man. Although I disagree with your opinion, I don’t feel the need to call you an idiot. Funny, you seem like someone who would not be easy to get along with and gets wound up over the little things. You don’t seem like you would be the “easy man” that many women would want.
Russell says
I won’t call him an idiot, but it was a dumb thing to say. Men don’t speak in code like that. No, what we want is a woman who is on our side. Too many women don’t actually like their man. They see him as a project. Look, we will decide if and when we wan to grow. Is that wrong? Try this. Ask any man you know to suggest some sort of growth to his woman. Anything. And keep on pushing for that. Maybe push for growth in multiple areas. See where that gets him. Women are downright hostile to such actions by men. Well newsflash…we don’t like it either. I still remember that one girl on an eHarmony commercial. She said, “And he loves me for me.” Yeah, that’s what men want, and they want it in dump truck loads. But we rarely get it for just “being me.”
Guys want to grow, and they want things to be passionate about. What we don’t want is somebody who thinks their job is to be our 24/7 life coach. If we want that, for a while, we will ask for it, but then when we got to where we wanted to be, we want it to stop.
I keep using the analogy of the man’s life being like a ship at sea and home and relationship being like a home port. When in port, you want easy. There is enough “hard,” and “growth,” out in the real world. We come home to have our batteries recharged through kindness, nurturing, patience, affection, soft non-confrontational talks, fun, sex, laughter, etc… I’m not really sure why that is hard for women to grasp. I would think that women would want the same thing. I think they do, which is why they get hostile when a man tries to be her uninvited life coach.
Cindy says
I wouldn’t have a problem with a man trying to get me to grow and fix a problem. Most men don’t talk to women in person the way many of you speak on this blog. In other words, no man has ever said to me in person that he doesn’t want to change a problem in the beginning of a relationship. In my experience, the things that I have tried to get men to change were things they initially lied about at the beginning of the relationship (omissions are lies). Examples: erectile dysfunction, debilitating physical health issues, mental health issues, major financial problems, drugs, alcohol abuse etc. All of these things they knew about prior to the relationship. Many times they would pretend to have just found out, figured it out or just started having the problem. Many times they would talk about how they planned to fix the problem, change the situation and had already started working on it. Most of the time, this was a lie. Only later I would find out these problems existed long before I was in the picture. These men were of different races, ages between 35-46, college educated professionals, airline pilot, professor, financial adviser, etc. The common thread was that they all lied about whatever their major issue was. I believe most did it because they figured if they told the truth too early in the relationship, women would not want to be with them, but if they wait until her feelings have been invested, then she will accept the issue. This is not fair and has not worked for me. I don’t believe that most women want to be a man’s “life coach”. I would prefer a man that is already coaching his own life. I know plenty of women who just want a man, would love you for you and never ask you to change anything, regardless of what you do or say, I’m just not one of them. Many men are extremely shallow and as long as I continue to look the way that I do, they will continue to try to pick me up, unfortunately they will continue to lie as well. If they tell the truth upfront, then I know what I’m really getting. If its what I’m looking for, there won’t be anything to ask them to change.
Tom10 says
@ Cindy
“In my experience, the things that I have tried to get men to change were things they initially lied about at the beginning of the relationship (omissions are lies). Examples: erectile dysfunction, debilitating physical health issues, mental health issues, major financial problems, drugs, alcohol abuse etc. All of these things they knew about prior to the relationship.
I believe most did it because they figured if they told the truth too early in the relationship, women would not want to be with them, but if they wait until her feelings have been invested, then she will accept the issue. This is not fair and has not worked for me”
I don’t even know where to start with this comment.
So these guys didn’t tell you about their issues upfront; the issues which would cause you not to date them?!
“If they tell the truth upfront, then I know what I’m really getting.”
No shit Sherlock.
Why would a guy – who’s trying to put his best foot forward — sabotage himself and tell you all of his character flaws upfront? Because it’s in your interest that he does so? You have to understand that guys don’t date with your interest at heart; they date with their interest at heart, so OF COURSE he’s going to omit his negative traits and highlight his positive traits.
Do you begin a date with a list of all your flaws so that your date knows what he’s “really getting”? Yeah didn’t think so.
Cindy, that’s how dating works; everyone puts their best foot forward, therefore it’s up to you to find out what their issues are and then decide if you can accept them or not. Expecting others to be upfront with their issues — for your benefit — is so outlandishly naïve as to be incredulous.
Adam says
You make some great points Cindy but I have to disagree with your pastor. I don’t want some woman to take me on as a project that she wants to transform into her perfect man. I don’t need to come home to some woman who is constantly “challenging” me. Really, I already have plenty of drama in my life, I don’t need tons of drama from my significant other. We should support each other in our goals. We should encourage each other to improve in a completely supportive and loving way. But having said that, when I fall in love with a woman, I love her the way she is and I don’t want her to change. In return I am looking for a woman who loves me as I am and loves me as I am.
jon says
Christ, no one said it would be easy. My experience its based on two inescapable facts. Simple. A) men have biological clock on their side b) luck.
Taking those two things into consideration ……good luck
Kiki says
Don’t worry Joan. Men are not really necessary for happiness. Sometimes they are even a detriment. Just live your life, quit looking, and enjoy your own company and the company of your female friends who are probably experiencing the same things. At our age…we are probably better off without a man in our lives. If a man is too lazy and selfish to treat you with courtesy and respect and doesn’t cherish you… He’s a waste of your precious time, effort and energy. Get a cat… They are much more satisfying companion. We’ve worked hard to become the incredible ppl we are… If men don’t appreciate that… Who needs them?!!
Chance says
Great to have you back. You’ve been missed.
Kiki says
Quit worrying about finding a man. I get chased by a lot of men- from their 20s to 60s and everywhere in between. I’m single, almost 50, and I’m done dating. I don’t want to deal with all the male BS. I’m happier being single spending time developing friendships with my female friends. If I want sex… I can just go out to a club and pick a guy for the night and kick him out in the morning. Who needs a man getting under foot anyway?! It’s not like I’m “incomplete” without one!! Cats are better companions than most men anyway! Who needs all that BS… If a man can’t cherish, value and respect me… Why would I even want to waste my time, effort and energy? Let the younger girls deal with all that BS… I have better things to do with my time now than sit around listening to a guy talk about himself for 3 hours trying to get into my panties. It’s not like he’s going to improve my life unless he’s pretty exceptional and that’s rare to nonexistent so quit looking for that unicorn and just enjoy being in the sun in the field. If a unicorn does come along … Count yourself lucky.
Buck25 says
Kiki, sees how this sounds:
Quit worrying about finding a woman. I’m single and over my lifetime, I’ve dated plenty of them; all ages, and I am done dating. I don’t want to deal with all the female BS. I’m a lot happier going out with my male friends,drinking, shooting pool. playing poker, watching games, and eyeballing young barmaids in low tops and short skirts. Sex? Hell, I can pick up a girl (or a hooker, what’s the difference?) in any bar, and kick her out tomorrow morning! Why would I want a woman underfoot? My dog is better company; he never complains about any of my shortcomings, or nags me about how “insensitive” I am: so long as I feed him and pet him occasionally, he accepts me just the way I am. If a woman can’t accept me the same way, and value me as more than just a meal ticket, why should I make the effort. Date them? Let the younger guys do that; they’ll find out soon enough the price they pay for what women mostly promise, but never actually give. I’ve better things to do, than sit at a table while some woman puts me on trial, parsing my every word and gesture, just looking for on reason to reject me; It’s like being on trial, presumed guilty until proven otherwise, while she gleefully acts as prosecutor, judge and jury! All that, pay for the privilege, too, and I’m lucky if I get a kiss on the cheek, let alone get in her pants! All in all, I suppose a woman might be an asset in a man’s life. but that’s assuming you can find one who’s not either hopelessly insecure, or a ball of man-hating, neurotic entitlement, who’s mostly frigid to boot! There may be some out there, but I’d have better luck finding a hen’s tooth, than such a rare bird!
Now Kiki, that was totally tongue in cheek, but I just wanted you to see what your attitude looks like, when it’s reflected back from the other side of the gender fence.
Evan Marc Katz says
Great attitude, Buck. If a woman wrote that her dog was better company than a lying, cheating, selfish man, you’d probably find it a bit unattractive, no? Well, that’s exactly how you sound, my friend.
So tell me, why exactly are you on a site designed to help smart, strong, successful women find love? Seems to me like you should be getting back to your poker, beer, and hookers.
Buck25 says
Evan, you got the words, but missed the point; remember, I said the post was “tongue in cheek” (I thought it clearly was overdrawn enough to make that clear). The purpose was to reflect a male equivalent of an attitude I believe Kiki is expressing. Of course, it’s an ugly attitude..but so is Kiki’s..unless one believes that sauce for the gander is not necessarily sauce for the goose… so much for humor.
Evan Marc Katz says
Well, if you were trying to nail the male equivalent of a bad female attitude, you did it. Unfortunately, your words are VERY similar to thing that the MGTOW community says regularly, so it’s hard to tell truth from satire. A bit like reading things said in the GOP debate.
Buck25 says
Evan, It WAS satire; a caricature of Kiki’s post with the genders flipped. Then again, I thought a lot of Kiki’s post sounded like MGTOW attitude, albeit expressed from the distaff side. I’m afraid about the only true statement in there (from my personal POV) is that I DO still enjoy looking at pretty young barmaids in low tops and short skirts (though at my age, that’s wishful thinking) 🙂 Sometimes, we attempt to elucidate with humor, and generate more heat than light.
Russell says
Evan, serious question, why was all of that directed at Buck25, and not also at Kiki, since he basically mirrored what she said. If she is done with men, if she has such a low opinion of men, why exactly is she on a site designed to help smart, strong, successful women find love? Right?
Evan Marc Katz says
Because I didn’t see it. I don’t read all the comments. I am nothing if not consistent in calling people out on their gender hating bullshit.
Ja says
Wow, a 50 year old sloar! Yummy!
Dave says
Sounds like the OP has a repeating theme in her life and hasn’t bothered to take a hard look at herself in the mirror. Typical of someone who has an inflated sense of entitlement and then blames others when they don’t get everything they believe they deserve. Might be fair to ask the OP as to why men are choosing the “psycho B’s” over her?
JAnika123 says
I was always on the look out for a fun good looking , looks after himself older guy , when I was 21 I dated a guy who was 47 and later at 26 I dated a guy who was 48 bit my goodness so old, so boring and talk about the flabby bums and protruding bellies I was bitterly disappointed. Now I’m 51 and my husband is 58 met him when I was 26 and him 33 we are so in sinc and so happy like there are no years between us only difference is our tast in music and entertainment he likes musicals and country and western and abc news and radio and I still like all the modern stuff whatever is new I love . My previous boyfriend who was 48 got so jealous he’d ring up and say all sorts of horrible things about my new man I was so surprised at his immaturity.
My husband loves my naturally light blonde hair I’m dutch and the way I dress I don’t look anything like my age ( been told I look I look in my 30s and I must admit when I walk around its the young guys always perving on me and saying hello but I am so not interested never have been , my man is rugged australian good looks but from an Irish background and he is delicious. If I had of met my man when I was in my teens I would have given him everything he wanted, I love him to death. ðŸ˜
FG says
Fascinating… I’m a male of the species. Mid 50s.
A friend of mine observed he wanted a slim gal. I remember forwarding thin body type gals’ profiles and telling him “look, after the zumba, golf, tennis, hiking, biking, kayaking (etc)… 1) you will be half-dead, and 2) I doubt you’ll get any, because you both will be totally exhausted”.
All jokes aside, finding a decent partner for life and love is difficult. At my age, you might expect progeny issues to be out of the way. Had a long-standing affair with a 51 y.o. last year, not for lack of wanting more than a weekly benefits package, but simply because her life is complex: her 2 sons, aged 22 and 28, still living with her, her youngest with psych issues. So progeny issues still abound.
I’ve dated some women in their 40s and early 50s that had drifted away from sex. They are out of touch with sensuality and sexuality. Dated professional women, a number of them feminists, and that crashed and burned immediately. Others with careers who seem to think very highly of themselves, yet, hold $50K a year jobs and have amassed little in the way of net worth.
I am a good listener, so I do try to grasp what the gals want. By the time I’m done listening, the accumulating flagrant contradictions are mind-boggling. I call it (no offense) the “oestrogen party”.
No, it’s not easy, and were not out of the woods. North American women are tough customers. I frankly prefer foreign women.
Cheers,
Deidre says
Open your heart and get over yourself and love will find you.
Cakebabe says
I SWEAR TO GOD the good men are all gone. I’m 35+, conventionally attractive, educated, financially stable, secure, and in no rush for the altar. I’ve gone on multiple dates since being single, and this is what I’ve encountered: secretly married men; wandering eyes; stained and wrinkled clothing (one guy covered in crumbs- for reals); flirting with other women while on the date; sex addicts; no-show flake; no job, no direction; bi-polar narcissist. A Wasteland of shitty shit shittiness.
I don’t try to change anyone, am kind and polite, and am DEFINITELY not the one to bring drama. The only guy I had a couple of repeat dates with got seriously upset with me when he thought I was being insensitive about his cat…. or something. I had to politely defuse the situation and calm him down. Basically, the responsibility has consistently been exclusively on me to be the honest, polite, presentable, considerate grown-up. I’m easygoing- but I’m not a doormat.
Mr t says
Well I’m 50. Single parent, kids live with me, divorced 2 years now, don’t go out to find another woman, these so called dating sites cost money to men but notice a lot free to women, so very hard to meet anyone let alone a lady who is willing with a man who has children, age wise I guess 40 to 55 is but all really depends on the person, of course would never bother myself if the lady had children as no one can be selfish in that way, we all get lonely and all have feelings and for a single dad as myself, I can only dream of a day a woman would love to take me and my family on and vise versa, lovely dream that would be. Hope everyone on here has there way come true in life as well as your dreams.
Jenn says
Agree with the poster. Men are screwed up. If you are an emotionally healthy normal woman they will run for the hills to some psycho or bltch with drama issues. These days men are the worst.
Josie says
Mr T- I am unsure what dating site you are referring to which is “free to women.” I am not aware of a single one.
Allen R says
Awesome question …..awesome answer…. I was going to ask where are all the healthy emotionally available women?…..i know there out there …..Id like to meet Joan, or at least conversation on subject…….hope she comments
Marcus says
As a 40 something man, I have read the posts on this forum and there has been some informative exchanges of opinions and ideas. Here is my modus operandi. I go to Target and purchase adult diapers only after I see a good special on them in the paper..this usually only happens every other month so I really have to stock up on them. Plus you really want a good brand. I then hold off for a good 2 to 3 days from going numero duex. During these 2 to 3 days I load up on Wendy’s value meals #5 (the Baconator) and meatloaf, lots of vegatables, eggs and beans. By day 2 it really gets uncomfortable. But I grin and bear it while I have another Baconator with a large order of fries. Then on day 3 I put on the adult diaper under a pair of slacks and then a dress shirt and tie. I then ride the train during rush hour and when I see an attractive young woman I then take a huge dump right there on the train while I sit there. Right when the shock hits everyone in the ears and nose that’s when I make eye contact, smile and ask her out. I use it as a filter. Because if you can find a woman that says yes after you ask her with a big boy load in your pants, she’s a keeper.
MichaelB says
I can tell you why Joan, because in a “browse pictures for the ideal man” scenario (as online dating always is) the nice guys, the caring guys, the emotionally available guys AREN’T the guys you’re face shopping for.
Perhaps take the time to chat with guys who aren’t as great looking, have a few extra pounds and maybe don’t make as much money or travel as much and you may be surprised.
Women bitch about not finding good men, but good men, like myself, often aren’t the ones that look like Brad Pitt or Ryan Gosling. Those guys don’t need to be good, they need only look sexy. Guys like me aren’t sexy so we need to be good.
BB says
I really relate to this in the sense that, the older and more self assured and happy with myself I get, the more I have guys fear that I won’t be as accommodating. I’ve had guys honestly say they find it hard when they don’t get their way and of course, the older and more experienced you get, the less likely you are to let a guy have their way an excessive amount of the time. I like being single, and it’s preferable to me, to having a relationship with an insecure guy. Sometimes I feel that women can cope with emotional issues better than men and this allows them to mature, whereas some guys just build up all this confusion about their past relationships and yet still look for exactly the same ‘chemistry’…which might just be chaos in disguise. Who knows!
kare says
Did anyone notice that women already changed when we got the vote and the birth control pill and sexual freedom and the ability to support ourselves. Oh geez. Go back to the 50’s where this belongs. Women are not going to change back to appease men. And so many wrong attitudes here about wonens value and men not changing. They have to even though some stuggle with it. Im in my mid 40’s. I have dated many wonderful men recently. Youngest being 35 oldest being 55. Some have been divorced some never married. I have three kids. The fact im 46 with three kids has not at all diminished my dating prospects. Some men want the family they never had. Some want to play. Some want to get serious. Theres no shortage of decent available men for whatever the woman’s needs are. Women do have choices. Men often assume they will bag a younnger woman but those younger women no longer have to date older men because they dont need their resourses. they can date men same age or younger. Men find out soon enough that they’re dealing with equals. Its absolutely wrong that women need to settle for a guy they dont want. They just dont. And wont. No matter how much you advise them to. Why would we? And really its not that hard to find a great guy. Theyre easy to please. Just be nice and respectful. Things everyone deserves. Including you women. Its not devaluing to be kind and comoassionate. Go for it ladies. Hes definitely worth it and out therr. And hes looking for you 10 years either side of his age if hes smart and hes open. If not he’ll struggle once he realizes the 50’s were 65 years ago. Men must do the changing because women already did. I don’t kniw why thats so hard for anyone to comprehend. It’s like wishing gay people back in the closet. Not happening ever. Thank goodness. Women- realize your value. Men have already given it to you. Wonderful men.
Sarah says
Evans that’s 59 year old man you met on the plane who had a fetish for younger women because they were fun easy no hassle and not scarred by life experiences is that not a sad excuse ?women in their 20s have been scarred by life experiences. you know well divorce scars children for life . So. he wants a 20 year old with no scars from life . A bit idealistic? Do you think a healthy 20 year old really wants a 59 year old? Their dreams do not have 59 year old men in them . He might need to get a a woman with attachment issues or scared by life to want him . Young mentally healthy adjusted women are disgusted by old men lusting them . It leaves them thinking that men Are only interested in one thing . We need role modles not sugar daddies Easy really means easy for sex easy to talk , light superficial talk all great as Melinda wrote in her great blog for short term relationship and easy gratification but ltr. Require sacrifices commitments real love honesty trust and they have to be earned . Not easy . U don’t buy trust or real love . Old men need to allow young women to live a normal healthy life . Does he want kids? Surely that’s hassle with a capital H !!!! And do kids really want a geriatric father? How uncool and embarrassing?? Keep life real stop messing it up . Accept ur age and women ur own are far from anxious or bothered about changing u . In fact coupled of similar age are best suited to one another and it is them that have to learn real love and model it for their children . It’s sad when there is cheating conflict etc… It ruins many lives and a committed family can be so beautiful and warm loving and peaceful . Forget ur lusting and help people in need . Join a charity . Care for society and help young people not confuse and use them just because u have power and money and greedy lustful eyes . Young people desperately need role model s not creepy old men . Those relationships don’t work so stop the illusion be real face the real world and u will love deeply way beyond the superficial level of skin. Hadley page said he wants easy over beauty or sex . So that depicts the happy older couple and able to share life’s joys and comfort in sorrow .
That is love not the hopeless shallow desires of lusting that r the biggest counterfeit for real love .
Ugly John says
I Am pretty below average looking with average salary/ wealth. The young sweet girl I am seeing is always saying she is poor. And I have bring her out to fast food restaurant and always have to pity her. Until one day, my friends who already become her friends too told me your so lucky to have a billionaire’s daughter…. “Why? my friends knew about her background but me?” If a 22 year old billionaire ‘s daughter has that much modesty, ladies, you really have to work harder to get your dream guys. May the force be with you.
AMarie says
How is everyone missing the obvious? Date those older men!
It IS nauseating and uncomfortable to play “impressed” and dumb yourself down. You know who probably CAN impress you? Those older men. You know who won’t be impressed/intimidated by your accomplishments? The male version of you, plus 20 years. Who will be a gentleman and take excellent care of you and value how feminine and beautiful you are? The older man. Who can pay TONS of attention to you because their careers are solid and their children are fully launched? Again…the older men
I’ve been baffled by this my entire life. My girlfriends will go out with men who treat them TERRIBLY, but won’t consider using the “men love younger women” FACT in their favor… I’m 38, attractive and educated but kinda lazy, and I’m super high maintenance and demanding. I only date attractive, exceptionally wealthy men who are in great shape and treat me with complete kindness and respect. They would commit but I’m not ready until I finish raising my daughter. My “cost” for that trade? 15-20 years. Thank you, so very much, to all the foolish women who have no interest in a deal like that. You’re driving up MY value in spades. You could also go with a shorter man. Another INSANELY excellent deal (thanks to SO MANY extremely shallow women) that I’ve gobbled up in the past.
Those “peers” you want are EXCELLENT partners to younger women. The answer is staring you in the face…
Glenn says
Glenn
I hear men say the same thing,where are the woman.
A lot of men have given up due to games,unrealistic expections,etc.
I’m still looking for somebody between 55 to 65.
I kerp my self in shape 5,10 180 lbs,6 figure income,love my kids and family,no arrest for anything.Yet the dating thing isn’t that good.
Ben says
Where are the real good old fashioned women we once had at one time compared to the ones that are out there now?
jenn says
men out there are nothing but screwed up- morons idiots and low lifes and it has NOTHING to do with your age. ever since i was in my 20’s and 30’s ive been encountering these same screwups
these messed up men WANT messed up women- they want the crazy flawed psychopaths. b/c these messed up women make them feel better I think and they want to feel like the more together sane one and theyre not intimidated by them. im in my 30’s and beautiful cool and fun- only meeting crazy men with issues. that’s how dating is today- it sucks.
Bigfootbuffon says
Bunch of negative Nancys on here. Who cares. If it works out, then go with it. If it doesn’t, then live single. Enjoy life.
GhanaBa Hardy says
It looks like the “6” and “9” argument all over the comment section. Everyone has an opinion, everyone wants go be heard, most are not even “listening/reading”. An open mind across gender is indeed a great asset. I’m 35 year old man. I have never dated, but iv observed that phenomenon called dating and its really interesting. I feel its about quality, not quantity. Women and men are built a certain way physically and psychologically and are supposed to fulfill certain roles in life. Not all aspect are fixed, some are interchangeable. No woman is capable of thinking like a man nor is a man capable of thinking like a woman. We all are unique and different in many ways and can only think like ourselves. In matters of the heart, its not about what we want, its more about what can be achieved by what we’re willing to give or give up.
AllHeart81 says
I think this is one of the most emotionally intelligent comments I’ve ever read in a blog space. Nice comments GhanaBa Hardy.
Glen says
Jon says
wow, what a thread! Some seriously hurt feelings round here.
I’m only 26, a guy just starting out on that mean road of life. I did have a lot of bitterness toward women in my teens and early twenties, which I’ll attribute to immaturity. I let all that go.
amusingly, what taught me to let it go was a competitive game. Some of the most common advice good players would give is, “you are the only constant in all your games. Nothing else is going to magically change you into a better player. You need to do that for yourself.”
I took that to heart. Who knows more about being screwed over by fate than millenuals? But the past ain’t changing. We only have the future.
More on topic, I like women from 22 to 35. Anything more would start getting weird. I’m not a “player”, but I’m not a sucker either. I believe in taking advantage of the transience of life. Simply take care of yourself, then if something happens, it happens. I tried getting close with a woman in her early thirties, but she had a child, and never had time. So yes, children now put one on my no fly list.
Truth is, marriage is just dying. It won’t come back. Transience. Short lived. Dreaming. That’s what we have. I like it better that way myself. Life is too short to spend behind the picket fence.
Best wishes to you ladies. We love you, really. But as usual, life just gets in the way.
keith says
This segment started off with a more helpful vibe, but it seems that some are really hurting. I’m 56 and after 25 years caught my ex cheating on me with a –woman—. The seemingly good life, my health, and my sanity came crashing down in a million pieces. I’m a year divorced now. My outlook has really improved, finally, but my want for another relationship has waned. I am actually starting to enjoy my life as a single and unattached man, even though I was heartbroken for the 2 years it took to get through the divorce mess–lots of therapy. I’m not looking to find someone to complete my life anymore. I’m complete on my own, and that is a huge surprise to me. I’m starting to be attracted again, but I don’t want anything more than friends meeting in the middle; you know, getting together every week a couple of times for fun and friendship; being boyfriend and girlfriend just like most of us were before marriage. I’m not really looking, but if a lady and I connect I would really like a realistic and laid back person who doesn’t need anyone or anything. I think that this type of relationship is what’s actually best for experienced middle-agers. I don’t want to be a security blanket or boredom buster for anyone. I think my age group is really capable of creating a new type of male/female dynamic because a lot of us have experience and hopefully more common sense that comes with age.
Janice says
Keith – You give me hope! I just turned 57, divorced after 24 years marriage, now single two years, and this is exactly what I’m looking for too. I’ve been on a senior dating site for a year, just now taking a hiatus though, and not really finding people like us and I live in the great Los Angeles area, so pretty vast population. I’ve met some nice men, two that dated briefly, the rest just seemed to want very casual (i.e. fwb)…
Keith says
Janice- I figured I wasn’t alone in that there were people out there who have shifted their concept of marriage and relationships, but, I speak from my own experience. Everything I wrote in my post is accurate, but it doesn’t reflect the occasional down days, lonely days, angry days, upside down days, and the “Am I crazy” days. The difference since my middle-age divorce is that I have had to re-learn how to deal and be with myself, by myself; not having someone close to help. Those who have never had a love relationship -really- know about dealing with life while alone. Their wants for love are completely valid and natural, and my experience is mine alone, and it reflects that of a very experienced, sometimes loved, and now tossed away man who lost himself in his marriage. Since I’ve had what everyone seems to want and lost it, and not longing for what I’ve never had, it seems easier for me to take on the new style of life I am living. But it took extreme loss to make me find myself again. This whole needing or not needing someone is a very complex issue, but bottom line I’ve learned that I have to stand on my own two feet and be strong. I feel like a more honest, real soul now that I’m alone because all I have to offer now is me, plain old me. On a lighter note I must say that I’ve never been more selfish than I am now; clothes, music, fun things, etc… I really hope I don’t lose myself again in any type of relationship or situation –that would be a big drag-lol. I want to stay cool and sane, and be open to a great life, whatever that is.
ScottH says
Keith- you said “This whole needing or not needing someone is a very complex issue.”
I agree and have been thinking about this for a while since my (incompetent?) shrink told me to stop dating because I’m too needy. I think it’s wrong to use the concepts of needing and wanting when talking about relationships, especially after reading the book Attached and others. I think being (or not being) in a relationship is natural or unnatural. Unnatural things are uncomfortable by definition, I suppose. Humans are meant to be paired up and being happily paired will provide a joy and happiness that can’t be provided any other way. Not being paired up is an energy drain. just my 2 cents this morning.
Sorry to hear about your recent loss and transition.
Janice says
Keith – There is definitely a grieving period, especially after such a long marriage. While your experience is different, and sounds much more traumatic, I doubted myself for a good year on my decision and it wasn’t until everything was final, that I felt a sense of peace and happiness that I didn’t think possible. While there were/are some lonely nights, I felt very much alone the last 5-6 years of my marriage. So now I am alone, but at least not in a stressful relationship which had a very bad affect on my health. Like you, I don’t want to give everything to a relationship without getting something in return, been there. I’m sure we can find that type of friendship/relationship as I agree that there are more and more of our generation entering singleness. Best of luck to you.
cindy says
@Tom10
Not sure why you felt the need to use “Shit” and “Sherlock”, but ok. You are one of those people that feel to omit is not a lie. If I say I have one child and I have four that is not a lie, I get it. Since I am “naive” as you say, I will go find a “naive” guy to match me and you go find a liar to match you. You see, I do tell my flaws upfront. When I went to meet a guy for the first time that I met online I wore no make up, baggy clothes and hair up in a pony tail. I explained that on dates I wear make up, heels and my hair done, however, I wanted him to see how I wake up and to get to know me. I believe in honesty, about looks, marital status, age, children, finances, whatever. MY BEST FOOT FORWARD IS THE TRUTH!!! I will not alter or diminish the truth. And don’t be sarcastic and ask how does that work for me. Because I am attractive I get hit on everyday. That guy that I met online ended up being a relationship for one and a half years who later turned out to have several mental health issues. I will not settle for a liar. WE ALL HAVE FLAWS, WHY HIDE THEM. There is someone out there for you that will like you for whatever you bring to the table. Stop hiding and lying or go find someone who hides and lies with you and live happily ever after. Good luck and I hope you find her.
Tom10 says
@ Cindy #210
“You are one of those people that feel to omit is not a lie. If I say I have one child and I have four that is not a lie, I get it.”
But saying you have one child when you actually have four isn’t an omission; it’s a bald faced lie. Failing to mention that you were an alcoholic 15 years ago, however, is an omission.
“You see, I do tell my flaws upfront. When I went to meet a guy for the first time that I met online I wore no make up, baggy clothes and hair up in a pony tail. I explained that on dates I wear make up, heels and my hair done, however, I wanted him to see how I wake up and to get to know me.”
Well that just seems like madness to me; meeting someone for the first time in baggy clothes and no make-up as it’s more “honest” is actually the craziest idea I’ve heard in my life!
I can only assume that you can afford to do this as you’re attractive, but for most of the rest of the population this would result in them not getting called for another date, as it could also be construed as you’re not bothered enough to make any effort.
“WE ALL HAVE FLAWS, WHY HIDE THEM.”
Because:
1) Revealing them could sabotage your chances of a second date.
2) It’s inappropriate to discuss matters such as mental health issues, substance abuse etc on first dates; that can come later. Discussing these issues with people you don’t even know yet is alarming behavior.
3) It removes all romance and intrigue from the dating process. Much of the joy of dating comes from revealing the multiple layers of your persona whilst simultaneously discovering hers. Laying it all out on the table from the get-go removes all the intrigue thus leaving the process flat.
4) Some people manage to deal with their flaws, so why reveal them if they won’t affect the relationship?
5) Much of being an adult involves putting on a front to the world and just keep on going. As you say we all have our flaws, however, it’s on us to cover them up, hold our head high and forge ahead. Maybe it’s just me but I find it nauseating when strangers decide to reveal all their issues; just deal with them dude!
So in conclusion, there might be someone out there that will like me “for whatever [I] bring to the table”, but she’d probably be nuts. I’d rather a more normal person thank you very much, therefore I’ll reveal my flaws in time; when it’s appropriate to do so.
cindy says
@Adam
Its great you love someone as is. So you should find someone who loves the same way. There is no argument here, people are different. I plan to grow and evolve and will have a mate who also plans to grow and evolve, with or without me because that is what he wants to do. You sound like you want to stay exactly the way you are for the next twenty years, so you should do so with a woman who wants that too. Some how I think many men are offended when someone suggests change like it is a criticism. I think its how you take it. I like constructive criticism, I like to learn new things, new experiences, which in turn makes me evolve and grow. I don’t ever want to be the smartest person in the room. If so, everyone is learning from me and I’m not getting anything. There is no right or wrong. You do what works for you and I do what works for me. I am happy, are you? I just want to be around honest people.
Keith says
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the kind words. Loss, growth, and toss in lessons learned; describes me to a T.
GoWiththeFlow says
It’s interesting that EMK talks about the 59 year old man he sat next to on the plane that said younger women were better to date since they hadn’t been put through the wringer by life and were thus happier and less cynical. I can tell you, that dynamic works both ways!
When I was in my mid 30s, I dated a divorced dad who was 12 years older than me. After 8 months of being with him, it was so refreshing to go back to dating men my own age who hadn’t been through a rough divorce. There was a tension that radiated from within my ex that just wasn’t there in the younger men.
cindy says
@Tom10 Well said Sir. You just stated that a woman would have to be nuts to like you for you with all of your flaws. Very well stated. You are right and thank you for enlightening all of us.
James says
Since most single women are very picky today when it comes to finding love which many of them will just grow old all alone with their cats anyway.
Alex says
Well im a male about to turn 21 in just a few months, and truthfully i find myself paying alot more attention to older women than girls of my age. Mainly for reasons talked about in this article. Females my age are just to much drama to handle and play the victim with everything that happens in the relationship. Plus jealously and being hypocritical are two characteristics you usually have to deal with when dating within my age group, and i have no patience to deal with neither anymore. When i was younger i liked drama filled relationships and girls who had there own personal issues at home because a crying girl on my shoulder just made me feel wanted and needed. Now years older and wanting to work on myself more than ever i realize i need a women who isnt so easily stressed out over the common issues of life, only because i usually find myself being blamed for something somehow or am being used as an emotional punching bag if their day was bad. I talk to a very wide ranged age group and women much older than me are always point out things they like about me in perspectives ive never thought about before. For example females my age are usually bothered by the fact that im good with people both men and woman. My current girlfriend always tells me she doesnt like how i might talk different around certain people or how she doesnt like that i can hold a conversation with a woman for as long as i do. However when talking about this to an older female coworker she told me it was attractive that i knew how to talk and click with people. She told me shed rather bring a man home to meet her family if he was a people person rather than a man who’d stay at the end of the table on his phone the whole time. I just think the perspective of older woman is what i like so much. Truthfully ive never considered myself the type of guy who judged on looks so being older doesnt discouraged me at all and by that i mean things such as stretch marks from having kids or a little extra weight or loose skin whatever it may be. And by that i should add that some of the most beautiful women ive ever seen were older than me so dont think im trying to say older women are less attractive. I should point out that theres certain characteristics about women with children that i just love, im very attacted to women who have a strong love for their family. Plus older women usually have a better confidence than younger girls. Older women usually dont pride themselves on the thoughts and comments of men attracted to her but rather just doesnt give a crap about what people think of her and has a self built confidence that doesnt rely on having to hear shes beautiful to know she is. I do have my own flaws that i work with and id rather be with someone whos mature enough to admit there own flaws and faults rather than downing me for my own and only expecting me to work on things. I love talking and not arguing and the thought of growing and learning with a person is very important to me. For now i have my focus on my current relationship and we do have a son together. We’ve been together for 4 years and talked for a whole year before making things official, and we’ve lived together for the last 3 years, so believe me im not just some kid who just went through puberty. Im trying hard to make things work but with her wanting to leave me every other week for some new reason tells me that maybe i should keep an open mind about my own future. Since i know she plans for her own without taking me into consideration anyways. Id like to put more thought into the next women im with (provided things dont work out) because i dont plan on wasting time on multiple relationships that dont seem to go anywhere or fall apart over easy fixes. Experiencing being a father has changed me so much in so many ways and id hope one day i can give my son the example of a healthy relationship that every young man needs to wittness for the importance of his own future.
Tired says
The first hurdle for a single man or woman is simple. Am I physically attractive? Am I pretty? Am I a good looking guy? If not, why? Are you over-weight? Do you keep your clothes updated? Do you shave daily and keep yourself groomed? How about your smile? Been to the dentist lately? It may seem shallow and superficial but I think that’s the way it is.
It seems that we have to overcome this instant gratification, want-it-now attitude. It’s the sign of the times but at 55, healthy, good weight (my doctor is happy), prosperous, available, having a personality, I don’t consider myself unattractive nor do I think women find me that way. But I’m not hot looking and probably remind women in my age group of their ex-husbands. For me I’m the “yeah, he’s got a lot going for him but. . . . meh”. And at age 55, I don’t have the advantage of a network where friends and family can introduce me to women. I suspect others have the same challenges.
There are men out my age there who do get it. They get that women have been burdened by full time work and then another full time job after work doing the best they can to look after their families (children and parents). But Ladies, you have to give us average looking men who don’t have silver tongues a chance and accept we are not perfect nor are we or ever will be that fictional character or celebrity.
Ladies, you also have to understand, at least in my age bracket, that men have primarily been the ones to make the first move and that has conditioned us to be vulnerable to further rejection assuming we don’t have egos made of steel. Many of us have experienced a lot of rejection so if you don’t give us a sign such as a smile, some sense of “hey, I’m interested” signal, a lot of us won’t be aware. You might have to hit us over the head.
Yes, we available men have to do our part and send signals, do a little flirting, meet you half-way, and be generally considerate of your needs.
Many of us are tired of paying for the sins of our fathers and brothers.
Ray says
I am a 52 year old woman. Divorced at 33 from a man who didn’t put in what I put in. Later widowed to a man 14 years older who had an undiagnosed heart defect. I work around all men, and my parents, and nearly all of my aunts, uncles, nieces nephews, cousins are married to their first spouse. One thing I have observed… the best men marry similar aged women at a relatively young age, and stay married.
Finding myself unattached at 42, and generally sympathetic to men’s issues and concerns due to working closely with them… I say this…. you can’t really blame single men for chasing younger women who makes things easy for them. Just like you can’t blame them for taking more money for jobs compared to their female coworkers. This is the culture they are raised with. Women are not important and only exist to serve them. Their moms were obliged to, because they had no choice.
So, ladies, don’t be angry with them. Most are only responding like to the messages our culture have fed them. There is no need to be angry, but you also don’t need to accept it.
I have not had any problems finding similar aged men to want a relationship with me when I want one. I never criticize. I only state my expectations in a way that is respectful, and I get to know them well before having sex. I give them plenty of room to hang themselves, aka the benefit of the doubt, in most things. Maybe my time around men has taught me how some seek to avoid the truth, and those men politely get shown the door.
My personal motto, is if I decide I would rather scrape paint than spend time with that man, or I don’t trust him for any reason, it’s time for him to go.
…and it is still generally true that the best men are married and not divorced. They love their wives, and are trustworthy. If you are a woman and single past 40, and don’t want to date older men, then don’t. I won’t. Don’t take it personally if those guys want younger women. See them as the sad, hurting people who want a second chance that they blew with their loving wives… sad and a bit pathetic for believing that another person can make up for their wasted life.
Don’t be the person they objectify… don’t let them use your youth or what remains of it. Be happy that your life is yours to live and take strength from your sisters (and the good men who love their wives) of all ages…. and know this… if you can’t have it all, the least you can do is make sure some man isn’t having it all at your expense.
Give 100%, see how they respond, then kick them to the curb if they don’t reciprocate or are ungrateful. No excuses.
Neel says
Thats a very accurate reply Ray, although some of them might feel lonely at an older age.
Chris St Pierre says
“Don’t take it personally if those guys want younger women.”
Thank you Ray. We appreciate your admission that it is our life, our choice.
“See them as the sad, hurting people who want a second chance that they blew with their loving wives… ”
Wow! Why would you presume to know anything about anyone’s prior relationships – male or female – and why they dissolved?
You, who is so fair-minded and gives the “benefit of the doubt, in most things”.
Far from giving men the benefit of the doubt, your statements are judgmental without knowledge, and you have labeled any man who is divorced and dating a younger woman to be, “sad, hurting”, and “pathetic”, and someone who “blew it with their loving wives”.
You might just allow for the possibility that far from being “sad, hurting”, and “pathetic”, many of these men are having the time of their lives, and quite happy that they “blew it with their loving wives”.
Neel says
Interesting article, I have a better understanding about the dating world. To summarize my findings, good men get screwed up when they marry someone when they are really young thinking that it will be a death do us part situation. But unfortunately if it doesn’t work out, their world is shattered when his spouse realizes she could do better and she does not have to keep up with any bullshit. Being raised by a working mother I support feminism, that said coming back from a failed marriage is not really easy for a lot of guys, personally I value the institution of marriage and the responsibility that it demands. I have been dating for only a couple of years but so far what I have learnt is a lot of women want toys and since a lot of them are independent they don’t need a man as pussycat dolls put it. I completely support that, its a free world but don’t expect a man to a complete partner if you are not willing to celebrate his success and share his failure. If you want to be your boss, listen and answer to no one; go ahead, but don’t expect a stable man to stand there and watch you do as you wish. Don’t expect a sacrifice if you are not willing to make one. Marriage laws are a bit biased towards women and I know why they are framed in such manner, without a prenup a man is as good as homeless if it doesn’t work out. The answer to the question also mention how we think we are all saints in out own mind.
Note:
For the people who want a successful long term relationship, look in to how the matching compatibility part works in an arranged marriage, the search will be hard and for the older ladies and single mothers out there you might have a hard time. Good guys will try to go long lengths to save their marriages before calling quits, so no they will not be easy to come by and winning a hurt persons trust is hardest. Agreed you will have a lot of fuckboys for company but real men, in the middle ages. A lot them have started giving up the idea of LTR and marriage. Again, its a free country. Freedom comes at a price, the question is how far are you willing to go?
CJ says
I’ve never met a female from an arranged marriage who was ‘happy’ – resigned yes, happy no. How is a man with a good job homeless if the marriage ends. He is walking away with a steady income. She is walking away with dependants and NO income, usually, and with many years out of the job market, very little prospects. While he spent all his time building his career and earning potential and she did everything else. That is my experience. My ex walked out into a luxury apartment with a six figure salary, while I was in a falling down ramshackle house, a student (he waited until I quit my job to go back to school which we had discussed at LENGTH and I would never have done that if he hadn’t agreed to it), with 3 school age children to support. I’ve never met a woman who divorced lightly. Most women I know (myself included) fought tirelessly to keep their family together until the bitter end. They don’t just up and leave because they think they can do better. Most women I know would have dearly loved the happy ending, the ma and pa home where all the kids and grandkids come back for christmas. This view that women don’t take marriage as seriously as men is extremely flawed and entirely incorrect. Womens lives are just as shattered by divorce as men. This is not a damn competition. Everybody loses in divorce.
I will never put myself in the position of being vulnerable like that again. The minute I went back to school my ex ramped up his disrespect to me as he thought he had ‘trapped’ me and therefore I had to put up with any crap he dished out. He didn’t quite figure that I don’t mind being poor but I sure as heck mind being abused.
Trapping women in marriages with no income is not the way to preserve marriages. Certainly, not happy marriages. Yes, we want freedom – just like you have and what is wrong with that? If you can only be secure when you are with a woman who is insecure and needs you or is forced to marry you by here parent because she has no other value than as someones wife, that is sad – what kind of man in this day and age, would even want that? I am willing to stay single forever to preserve my freedom – that is how far I am willing to go.
AllHeart81 says
CJ – thought your comments here were beautiful and I couldn’t agree more. In so many of these conversations, women are painted with this broad brush that they happily divorced their husbands and ran off with no human qualities to their name.
I too am willing to stay single instead if men don’t want to be with me for who I am, not for who they want me to be. I played that game too long in my 20s, twisting myself up into knots and making myself sick to live up to a fantasy that denied my own needs in favor of pleasing the men I was in relationships with. If I’m single for the rest of my life, I’m single. That doesn’t mean I don’t deeply value what a man brings to my life. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want a relationship just to be loved but because I want to love and give and support him. It just means I can’t twist myself anymore playing out man’s fantasy of who he wishes I was while being unable to accept who I really am.
ScottH says
Allheart81- there are as many situations as there are people. I know men who’ve fought to keep their marriages together. There are people of both genders who leave marriages because they think they can do better. People of both genders leave marriages “because they married the wrong person.” On and on and on…. It is not a gender thing. It is a person thing. Women get screwed in divorce and so do men but most importantly, the kids get screwed the worst. Cowards give up. Cowards refuse to do the work when things get tough.
AllHeart81 says
I completely agree with everything you said Scott. But if you’ve been around the internet any time at all, there are so many men that specifically act like their ex-wives are evil banshees that have risen up from the bottom of some dark and murky swamp to wreck havoc on their lives, with no heart of her own. I think that’s the point CJ was making. Not that some men don’t fight for their marriages too. CJ talking about her experiences doesn’t suggest anything about men’s experiences either. Sometimes I feel we are all talking at each other because we all want to be heard but rarely do we listen to each other.
ScottH says
“Most women I know (myself included) fought tirelessly to keep their family together until the bitter end. They don’t just up and leave because they think they can do better.”
My ex fought tirelessly to get divorced. And she did up and leave because she thought she could do better (her boss). He ended up dumping her and now she’s in a bad spot.
“This view that women don’t take marriage as seriously as men is extremely flawed and entirely incorrect.”
Not true in my case.
AllHeart81 says
Your situation doesn’t disprove the point she is making.
AllHeart81 says
I don’t think older men have an easier time dating. I think that was a fantasy often projected but the reality of what older men are also dealing with in dating, is no less difficult. Although I do think single fathers have an easier time of it than single mothers. Unfortunately, I think women are more open to taking on someone else’s children then some men are. Which is a shame for those men who limit their own capacity for love.
I am confused by your last comment about freedom coming at a price and asking how far you will go. Are women suppose to give up their autonomy to go back to the ‘good ole’ days’ when men still wanted to get married? I have heard other men talk about how men are not as interested in LTR or marriage. Almost like fear morgering women into wanting them to feel bad for having autonomy. Am I miss reading you here though?
Vanessa says
You missed the big point which is that Joan has young children. That is a deal killer for so many men. They either are paying child support and have at best a complicated relationship with their ex-wife or just want someone whose kids they won’t have to raise as well. Not that they were that good at raising their own or they likely would not have bailed when their children were at their most vulnerable.
In my many years of dating, marriage, dating and finally realizing that raising healthy, secure children with an absentee father is a full time job, I’ve learned that women rarely leave good men. I can attest to the fact that most of the men who are out there and divorced that I have met have issues that will surface fairly quickly. So yes there are plenty of good men out there but they are married to other women or other men. And if you are into taking away someone else’s husband then that’s your option. Personally I don’t have the energy to destroy someone else’s family after bearing the pain of the end of my own.
But there is poetic justice. Those 50 something men who want younger women are at some point going to have to have more kids or find another younger woman and go through the same thing all over again. And don’t get me started on men who see women as arm candy, not people.
Somewhere out there is hopefully a nice guy who will want you for you. Finding him on an online dating service, Tinder or one of the hookup sites is unusual but people do and they live happily ever after or whatever version of that is real. Personally my youngest child is off to college soon and I am trying to care more about finding someone because when I am with couples who have been together for decades and found a way to make it work I am inspired. And spending the rest of my life alone is not a fantasy come true.
I have a 26 year-old niece who has a three year-old boy and finding someone who will accept her life as it is has been really hard for her. He matters more. Most men cannot accept that they are not the center of the universe.
Men aren’t the answer – find inside yourself who you are and what matters to you and who your best self is or can be. To quote Field of Dreams “If you build it he will come.” And even if he doesn’t you’ll be a much happier person on your own.
Monica says
Im an older women in her 40s and I do prefer younger men the ones I’ve seen around my town and beyond my age look so old frumpy unkept and overweight. I do look like u am in my 30s and prefer to date guys in their 30s. No because of health issues long ago I no longer can even have hormonal issues as some men may suggest and I don’t require a lot of maintenance to keep my looks it’s in my genes. I take care of my self I don’t need a man to do that what I had wanted was a partner in crime. Now I have vowed abstinence and sweated off everything I fell for someone hard it took the life out of me cheers to all you still out there trying I’m done. I just wanted to let you men know out here don’t look all frumpy lol and don’t be so shallow and us older women are not hormonal as we at this age are more balance compared to the younger set and we know what we want in life and who we want and we know who we are. We just want to experience things with you!
Bill says
Can’t help it women like guys that are somewhat settled down and out of that bad boy stage. I do enjoy spending time with some of the younger generation. I think they appreciate guys that can go with the flow. Enjoy some of the simple things in life. Being a good listener is easy for me. I enjoy being a sounding board for my partner. Sometimes women just need to be heard. Being playful comes easy for a more experienced and wiser guy also. It’s so much easier to be content and I have found women really appreciate that in a guy also.
Jayne says
Certainly l wanted my ‘ex’ to change, he was a tradie that would come home covered in crap and sit straight on the couch, l never ‘nagged’ but tried to negotiate an alternative arrangement like coming home and jumping straight in the shower to no avail, he just didn’t get ‘the change’ that l wanted, which is often code for grow the F. up,. after 20 years l gave up… He always said to me ‘ tell me what you want me to do because l just don’t know’ l mean seriously l’m not your mother! and this was coming from a kind and loving man, as an earlier post stated, ‘it’s what he DIDN’T do’ .
Daveh says
I would like be with a older woman because they can teach u an shape you into a better person they can help you get jobs and help you in life I don’t understand why don’t more guys try older women they are way more mature.
Tyler says
LOLOLOL!!!!
BillyG says
I beg to differ, 50yo plus women with great profiles, qualities & looks, demand a age selection of +2 -10 years seeking men, so by numbers 50 plus average joe men needs to seek older women to have any chance.
Mature Don Juan says
I am an early 50-something no-kids, never-married bachelor, and look even younger than the OP (I’m eligible to join AARP and when I go beardless, I get asked for my ID to buy beer). I have a sister that has children. A woman like the OP cannot give me children, so genetically speaking, I would have more genetic investment with my sister than with an infertile woman like her.
OK, I could have sex with the OP, but still, it is in my genetic interest to pursue a younger, fertile woman – and as it turns out, evolution has made it such that us men are repelled by the idea of a woman with children not our own, and as well just non-young women in general. I am an American, but as I am early-retired (easy to do when one only has to spend money on himself), I spend most of time abroad – like many of my countrymen, in places like Eastern Europe, Latin American, Southeast Asia, etc. – where young, childless women are abundant and woman like the OP are considered undatable, as it should be.
Heidi says
Young women should beware of middle aged men spinning a web of lies to win them over. They’re not all mature father figures.
Tyler says
Exactly! The are most likely guys who didn’t get caught in the webs of young women. Now they are spinning their own webs and hold all the cards. Now the young and old women want them. Ah, the mid 30s power flip. I love nature!
Scribe says
A single male friend of mine in his mid-fifties only seems to want to date women in their early to mid-forties. He summed it up this way. Women his own age “look older than I feel.” While that may come across as shallow, here is an emotional reality that I did not see mentioned elsewhere. Most healthy, middle-aged men FEEL a lot younger than they actually are. In fact, most are shocked when they see themselves in the mirror. Who the heck is that guy? they wonder. Perhaps many healthy middle-aged women feel the same way. That may explain why many financially independent, fit, and desirable middle-aged women prefer younger men.
She52 says
I think Marc Katz’ response was spot on. More than not, single women over 35 develop a sense of entitlement, judgement and expect the world be handed to them by a man (not any man, a man who fits their unrealistic expectations) . I say this, as a 52 year old woman. I am long divorced. No kids. No relationship in 10 years. Admittedly men do stop looking at you past an age. For me it became obvious mid 40’s. If I am to be honest, I WAS at one time a great catch…but, I screwed up by dating men I knew were not marriage material or even good relationship material. Then I got old.
The only men Ive encountered who are single, in the last few years, is Bob, a 60 year old, handsome, church going man. Sounds great, except, hes been married/divorced 3x. He will tell you on of his ex wives filed rape charges against him (he says while she was having an affair) and then his daughter (with the same wife) also accused him. He claims they both dropped the charges, and he has court documents stating that, but, he claims, it will never be off his record. Next, he lives with his 90 year old mother, because her house is paid for. She cooks, launders, and pays his car insurance. A married woman hes been hung on since HS, and he had affairs with during all his marriages (which I believe he said caused all his divorces) still buys him cell phones and pays his phone bill. I could go on about men I meet who, like Bob, have similar lives that eliminate them as relationship material. I would say older men who have their act together and find themselves single will have the full spectrum of single women young thru old to choose from. I have my own emotional baggage now, well, because I spent my life dating lots of men and making the same poor choices and causing damage to my mental and spiritual health. I now suffer chronic illness (severe disabling migraines, arthritis) as well as anxiety/traumatic related disorders that pose their own challenges for me and for anyone who dates me. What I look for in a man now? Is he honest with himself about himself? Bob has no idea why he is alone. LOL.
She52 says
One other thing I hear from every 35+ single “I look 5 or 10 year younger” My response to you is “Chances are you dont”
Further and more damaging, making forthright statements about looking younger than you are….shows you are preoccupied with your age, yet, feel your match should not be.
Chris St Pierre says
“Every time I hear a woman saying that she ‘intimidates’ men, this is what comes to mind.” Dead on. Absolutely. Women who think of themselves as “intimidating” to men are usually simply unpleasant to be around and they will have not time for you because they are out there proving to the world – and themselves – how great they are. If they were men, we wouldn’t want to hang around them either.
AllHeart81 says
I find this to be a very combative perspective. Maybe it’s not that they are “unpleasant” to be around, they just may not know how to attract that intial interest because she may not have great communication skills or know how to be open.
Men and women are not judged by the same standards. Strong men are usually given compliments for their strong, independent demeanors. Women are usually criticized. Which is why male leaders are given props and female leaders are usualling called the “b-word”.
Chris St Pierre says
I don’t agree that a woman is labeled by men as a bitch simply because she is a strong leader. Reference: Indra Nooyi, head of Pepsico; Pat Woertz, head of Archer Daniels Midland ; Madeleine Albright; Oprah; Angela Merkel; Queen Elizabeth; Margaret Thatcher. I don’t think I have ever heard these female leaders referred to by a male as a bitch. I think most men respect these women as strong leaders and formidable opponents. You have to have other negative qualities present to end up with that label as a common occurrence. Just as bullying, derisive, Machiavellian male leaders end up being referred to as an a-hole – and rightly so – and not looked as positively for their strength. But, what we’re talking about here are intimate relationships. What person, male or female, wants an “intimidating” person as a partner? I certainly don’t, and I bet this is true of most men.
Gary says
I’m a 65 year old man and have been looking for a similar age female partner. But after 2 years, I have decided to give up and will begin a new quest to find a younger non mentally damaged women.
Ironically on web dating services, I was contacted 9 out of 10 times by women from 30 to 45 that want a relationship with an older stable man. However, I wanted a same age partner, I did spend some email time trying to learn why they wanted a relationship with an older man, most comments related to instability of their same age available men, they wanted to focus on relationship building with older me and had written of their same age men as viable partners.
The consistent problem I have run into is that my same age women have forgotten how to be a life partner to a man and act like competitors or want to dominate the relationship. Further I am not interested in shoveling your horse stables or clearing the yard every day from your 6 at 90 pound dogs leaving 2 dozen at 2 pound piles all over the place per day. I’m looking for a relationship with a women and not interested in funding or being stuck with a massive collection of animals.
Sorry same age ladies, but that’s not what an older guy wants >> we want a companion and partner to do things together and not dealing with your inability to focus on a new relationship while you are still stuck in your past. I’ve been OK with some level of overweight for the women as long as they were willing to eat and exercise and burn it off. But to date, I have not found one single same age over weight female that had any desire to implement a healthy life style. And stop drinking the wine, all it does is add up to 20 pounds a year of excess sugar to your diet that converts to fat, when you don’t exercise to burn it off.
And most ironic of all, is that many of the same age women, after a month of discussion with me, have stated that I should look for younger women that have a more flexible attitude towards men.
Note that my only Must requirement was to work with me on healthy food choices (organic, non GMO, plenty of minerals, vitamins, etc), and to go walk 4 to 5 times a week. Everything else wold be done to help each other as required. I would ask them what they see themselves doing in the next year. This resulted in “I don’t know, I have not given it any thought”. Well, why are you even bothering to be on a dating site if you don’t have any future goals. Why waste your time and the time of the men looking for a female partner if you have no idea what you want with a new relationship.
Bottom line for me is the same age women (60 to 70) seem to be stuck in their prior lives and do not seem to have the ability to walk away from past life / relationships and start over. I’m OK with you having kids, but I’m not interested in your children’s problems. My children are all in their 30’s and working. They call me once in a while and don’t waste my time, and are off my payroll. I’m not interested in your 25+ year olds that want to live at home, do nothing, play video games, spend all day glued to their smart phones, and waste our time. Kick them out, get over it.
Somewhat interesting is that the 30 to 45 year old women that I have emailed with point out that their same age men appear to have the same problems I’m experiencing with older women. I think this is why the younger women are looking for the older men. Somewhat of an interesting social conundrum.
30 to 45 year old women cannot find 30 to 45 year old men and looking for older stable men. An persistent comment from the younger women was that they wanted a man that would treat them as good as their father treated their mother, and they can’t find that with same age men.
older men have difficulty finding same age women and give up and start looking for younger women that want older men.
When I would meet women in stores / events and talk with them. I would ask if they have older women friends or family members that might be interesting in dating / creating a new relationship. What I would often hear from these younger women, is ‘I am single, I can’t find a same age man, I am OK with dating a older man, and I not happy that I am putting on weight and want to learn how to be on a healthy living diet / live to achieve proper body weight “. Sadly, I did not pursue them, but will do so in the future.
Susan Young says
I hear a lot of anger from some of those that have posted. Bob says that no man wants to be romantic with a woman that is fat. Does he think a woman finds a man with a huge stomach romantic? What it comes down to is one needs to find a partner that is similar: background, weight, finances, age, values etc. Because that person will be able to relate to you and understand your imperfections therefore be empathetic and compassionate. Bob obviously isn’t compassionate. Woman and men are not over weight just because they let themselves go. Some people are stuck on medicines that increase weight for example.
I think that people place far too much importance on high income and big houses they don’t need. Working for the big bucks just causes a more stressful life and less time with family. Also they place too much emphasis on their partner having a perfect body etc. When you really have chemistry with someone; not just looking for a trophy partner, they are beautiful inside and out. I am personally looking for a man that is similar in age, is stable financially (not loaded), has chemistry, is warm, friendly, affectionate and wants to nurture a relationship. Just an average guy that will value me as much as I value him.
It is very important to understand what is important to your mate and remember to do it. Otherwise it is all about you and that is what you will end up with in the end- just you.
Tyler says
Yes that’s what you’re looking for now. But is that what you were looking for at 25? I will give you the benefit of the doubt but most women aren’t. They only come to these conclusions once they have no cards left. The smartest guys will figure this out and just wait till they hold all the cards (later in life.) Women love to criticise men for what they desire once they aren’t THAT anymore. Is it any better for a young, beautiful women to desire a rich, powerful man? Again, I’m not saying this is you, but it seems to be most women.
Tyler says
Why would any smart, upwardly-mobile guy get serious or marry a woman these days? There’s too much to risk and it’s not necessary. Society has gotten so crazy that the smartest guys are opting out. No marriage, no kids, no charity, no mentoring, no getting involved in politics, etc. Why take the risk? Why waste your time? Work on your education and career. Travel, buy nice things, have hobbies. Unfortunately, the people you need engaged the most, are the first to figure out it’s just not worth it. If you wonder where all the good guys are, this is where their headed…if they’re not already taken.
Karl R says
Tyler said:
“Why would any smart, upwardly-mobile guy get serious or marry a woman these days? There’s too much to risk and it’s not necessary. Society has gotten so crazy that the smartest guys are opting out.”
Let me unwind this a little….
You believe you’re a smart guy (and you probably have some evidence backing that up). You’ve opted out of marriage. And clearly, all of the rest of use would agree with you … except we’re a little bit slow and dense … compared to you, of course.
I’m not going to say you’re less than intelligent. But let me point out, that if you’re beginning a persuasive argument, that’s not the manner which is most likely to bring people around to your way of thinking. (If you’re just preaching to the choir, it may get a few “Amens!” though.)
Tyler said:
“If you wonder where all the good guys are, this is where their headed…”
And when you’re talking about good guys, you’re clearly referring to yourself. Right?
I apologize for rehashing things you’ve said already. I’m married, so I’m clearly a little slow on the uptake.
Tyler said:
“No marriage, no kids, no charity, no mentoring, no getting involved in politics, etc.”
Um … okaaayyy….
If you’re trying to convince other people that you’re one of the “good guys” (your choice of words), where does “no charity” fall into that?
All of the major world religions agree that charity is a good thing. Same with secular humanism. Philosophies like Utilitarianism also feel the same way.
I’m trying to think of a belief system that would equate “uncharitable” with “good,” and the only thing that’s springing to mind is LaVeyan satanism.
But I’m one of the married guys, so clearly I must have overlooked something. Please enlighten me.
Tyler said:
“Travel, buy nice things, have hobbies.”
I’ve done most of my traveling since I met my wife. (With her. I wasn’t traveling in order to escape her company.)
If you’re trying to buy happiness, the return-on-investment for “nice things” is terrible. The happiness from a new thing wears off very, very quickly. Invest in experiences instead. They’re an appreciating asset (from a happiness standpoint).
And when I go on a trip or to a show, attractive companionship often doubles my enjoyment.
I hate to cut this short, but my wife and I are going out dancing. (Even the dull, boring, and slightly less intelligent married folks still have hobbies.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qETPFyxyfM
nick says
i think the hub of this, is if your confortable and mortgage free, and can travel or do what you like, as i am. you say whats in it for me? and its difficult to really know why i should take a risk, divorce is terrifying, and i see older women with kids seeking a resource mate firstly and a partner second. so goodbye to that.
i do give something back, but on my terms, and do give to charity. men and women are predatory to some degrees, and men seek younger women perhaps in a more casual sense, take the lyrics of Ariana Grande’s new song states – men are to be discarded, and its only my current turn with this women….and then….Thank you, next –Thank you, next, Thank you, next –Thank you, next.
i wont ever get married, i’d rather be happy. – but good luck to those who believe you will find that rainbow coloured unicorn.
John Gabriel Otvos says
There was a comment about how shallow men are. Without blame or shame, our culture has created this dumbed down lack of emotional, intellectual and spiritual situation. This consumer culture is always trying to sell us something, especially that which there is no need for. Why else would humanity be in the 6th mass extinction?
One of the things we can do during our brief time here on E-air-th is to learn. It’s a choice to look at the many sides to questions, topics and POV’s. We put all this data through our filters paying attention to how our intuition and inner feelings take in this information. Or, we can go to the bar, hang out, watch dumb shows and reality TV, rather than create our own rich reality by being present and eschewing boredom.
Adam says
I can’t be bothered addressing most of that, but I will say about the ‘I am so amazing that I intimidate men’ thing – you don’t, and we are sick of fucking hearing that tired old nonsense. Women who say that don’t intimidate us, they irritate us. As soon as I hear it I just avoid her.
Jimmy says
Too many women everywhere nowadays with their very high super standards.
Kim says
I definitely understand the frustration and hurt out there- and its affected a lot of people. Instead of fighting, though, and attacking each other based on gender and on the worst behaviors of SOME of the opposite sex, l think it would be really great -and potentially healing- to assess our experiences with individuals and try to be supportive of each other. To try to understand and learn from each other. Bitterness and anger are simply signs of having been hurt and I get the impression that everyone here understands what it feels like to be hurt; Lets not become each other’s enemies. Life is so hard for us humans as it is. Keep hanging in there, everyone, I’m sincerely rooting for you ❤