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Even though I bill myself as a dating coach for “smart, strong, successful women”, I still maintain a few male clients.
I enjoy working with guys because, when they’re motivated, they’re hardworking and highly coachable. Plus, the men who gravitate towards me are usually “nice guys” who just need a little bit of an edge to succeed wildly with women.
In other words, most of my men are the one you should be dating in real life — the kind that are open to learning and growth and are willing to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to better connect with women.
The guy who called me today is completely different — and I had such an interesting phone call with him that I wanted to share it with you.
“James” tells me that he’s 30 years old, living in Seattle, working in IT. He sounds like a bright guy. A little angry, perhaps, but I’m used to getting clients who aren’t too happy with the fact that they’re reaching out to a dating coach.
James tells me that after focusing on his career for most of his 20’s, he’s been dating intently for the past year.
And it’s been TERRIBLE.
There isn’t a woman in the world who’d enjoy going out with a man who believes that ALL women are fickle and unfair.
It seems that whenever he goes out with women, they’re all so SHALLOW.
They never want to TAKE THE TIME to get to know him as a human being.
They’re all looking for magical CHEMISTRY and trying to figure out within 5 minutes whether he’s their SOULMATE.
The women he wants IGNORE him online, DON’T RETURN his calls after dates, and generally seem to want the PERFECT man.
As a result, James HATES dating.
Now, between you and me, it doesn’t take a dating coach to diagnose what ails James. There isn’t a woman in the world who’d enjoy going out with a man who believes that ALL women are fickle and unfair.
Still, I sympathized with James on the phone. After all, this IS his dating experience. It’s real, not imagined. And it’s normal to feel frustration when you can’t solve a problem.
I asked James what he thought that I could do for him. He mumbled something about helping him meet women who were different than the women he’s been dating.
I couldn’t hold back any longer.
“I hate to tell you, my friend, but the problem isn’t with all the women in Seattle. And dating coaching isn’t telling you where the “quality” women hang out. After 12 weeks of coaching with me, you know who’s going to be the same? Women in Seattle. As such, the ONLY thing we can do is change how YOU’RE approaching dating. Does that make sense?”
James paused for a second, gritted his teeth, and said, “I don’t want to change very much. The problem isn’t with me — it’s with THEM. WOMEN are the problem. I’m asking you to help me find better ones. Are you telling me you can’t do that?”
“What I’m telling you, James, is that you’re the common denominator in your life. And, logically, since I can’t change Seattle, or women, or Match.com, or anything else, the greatest shift is going to come in how you approach women, how you understand women, how you flirt with women, how you connect with women. But it’s about YOU learning, and YOU changing. That’s what yields the best, most long-lasting results.”
I can’t help someone who doesn’t truly want to understand, learn, and grow.
James and I aren’t going to be working together. And that’s fine by me. I can’t help someone who doesn’t truly want to understand, learn, and grow.
And the not-so-subtle reason I shared this story with you is to ask you to reflect on whether you have anything in common with James.
Do you think dating is TERRIBLE?
Are you frustrated that men don’t take the time to get to know you?
Do you get bent out of shape when men IGNORE you online, DON’T FOLLOW UP after dates, and generally seem to want the PERFECT woman?
Do you think that, if only MEN changed, you’d be in a happy relationship by now?
If so, I hate to tell you, YOU are the one who needs to adjust. Just like James.
You’re not “wrong” that men could improve in 100 different ways. You’re mistaken in thinking that men are going to improve. Your job isn’t to CHANGE men.
It’s to become the kind of woman who UNDERSTANDS men, ATTRACTS men, KEEPS men happy, and CHOOSES good men. This is the key to a successful relationship.
And no, it’s no different than how James needs to learn to attract, understand, and connect with women in order to keep them happy. Until he does, all he’s going to do is complain about YOU, and how unfair you are to him.
In reading my blog, subscribing to my newsletter and joining one of my coaching programs, you have a chance to learn something that will change your life.
The question isn’t whether this information can make a difference.
The question is whether you are going to be like James and continue to blame the opposite sex for everything.
Helen says
Evan, how about a corny analogy here:
It sounds like enrolling in dating coaching is a lot like learning to play an instrument. And it SHOULD be that way. You find someone who is a good teacher (good coach) and learn techniques to make you a better musician. If it’s playing scales, learning tricks to speed-read music, etc., you do it and trust that it will make you more skilled.
The difference between music lessons and dating lessons seems to be that people take the latter too personally, like this guy James. “What? There’s something wrong with me?” And it shouldn’t be that way. It’s not something wrong with you. You don’t think there’s something wrong with you if you don’t know how to play the Mozart Clarinet Concerto right off the bat. And so it should be with learning how to be effective in relationships.
Maybe part of the problem is not just that people take it very personally, but they also hear a lot of sketchy advice along the way because everyone thinks they’re experts at relationships – heck, even if they’ve never been in one. So those who seek advice don’t know whom to trust. It’s different with music. No one would attempt to be a clarinet teacher if they couldn’t play clarinet themselves.
Evan, I can understand why every once in a while you may feel as though you’re swimming against the current. Taking advice too personally and a history of hearing both good and bad advice may be two reasons.
Daniel Crawford says
Sound advice. I like this! It makes sense because this is what happens in real life. Let me even expand a bit. The problem isn’t in dating ideals, but in role ideals, The woman who wants career equality and fairness is the one who will suffer the most because she seems most outside the acceptable modicum for a working/successful relationship until she is impregnated with a child. It isn’t fair, but that is reality. It will take another 60 – 80 years to accept this reality but it WILL happen!
rawr says
That’s because it is personal. When an otherwise good man is rejected by a woman she’s saying to him that she doesn’t think he’s fit to reproduce, it’s the ultimate insult. The more a man develops a more fish in the sea mindset the more likely he is to become a player, and then the women who get screwed by him and others like him eventually come to evan and pay him money to try to learn how to scrape the bottom of the barrel for men who haven’t learned their lesson yet. They never have any semblance of chemistry with each other because he’s dim to the point that he even in his advanced age doesn’t realize that he’s a dupe, and the woman in front of him is choosing him as a last resort, a backup plan that falls just short of cat lady life. I’m sorry if you think this sounds angry or hostile or whatever you wanna label it as, but this is a very common and very recurring pattern in women. Evan should be marketing his business to woman in their early 20s so they can find a quality partner as early as possible and get the fuck out of the dating circus once and for all. Lets hear about how long the relationships he’s helped people get together last, if they have a longer shelf life than a few years, and if they’re anything more than relationships of convenience where they grow fat together in their twilight years.
CDS says
Generally women in their 20’s/30’s are absolutely terrible. Rude, terrible, money hungry beings..
Smash says
Haha! Women in Seattle ARE terrible. I’ve lived here 16 years and that’s not changing. What James needs to do is what I did: play the Seattle game on ITS turf. He needs to get involved in the outdoors scene (me: skiing and mountain biking). Sadly, these are largely male-dominated pursuits. But in the end, he’ll feel better about himself, prioritize his needs instead of prostrating himself in front of a very fickle and dull Seattle dating scene, and make a ton of new friends who are active and fun…and know women who are active and fun.
I go on 3-4 dates a week with women I meet all over town. Granted, these women are awful (any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.) But I never give up and I go into each date hoping to be surprised.
Kris says
What do YOU mean by ‘too mannish’? Ive heard in my life a few women refer to themselves in this way. I’d always thought that they’d seen themselves in this way as a result of comparing themselves to other women. I’d never heard it from a man. Could you describe what you mean by ‘too mannish’?
James Bowen says
A way I look at it is that they either:
Try to actively fulfill traditionally male roles either in an attempt to prove they are “equal” — these are the female chauvinist pigs, OR
Try to become their ideal mate via ambition, toughness, independence, and leadership, instead of trying to become a complement to their ideal mate through supportiveness, sweetness, engagement, and (obviously selective) submission. I don’t even have anything at all against these women, they just aren’t good matches for the men they tend to want. Two ambitious people make one bad couple.
It’s a big thing in big city nowadays. Oh, well. There are plenty of women who aren’t like that, you just have to cast a wider net.
Christine says
Define “traditionally male roles”, please.
George says
Wow I love this James. You expressed everything I feel about some of these women.
Jude Lee says
James, you are stuck in the past male interpretation of what is feminine and masculine. You DO have something against these women. You are not open minded enough to actually try to see life from a perspective not your own. Guys want women to understand their perspective and I know a lot of women who that, mostly married women. I agree with you that you are going to run into a lot of shallow women but, remember, there are good women meeting a lot of shallow men. Your perspective, imho, is shallow because you want a woman satellite who revolves around you and support you, is sweet and engaging and obviously (not selective) submissive. Women can be just on guard in dating as men not wanting to be vulnerable. ALL men and women are vulnerable. Dont’ you know that? I think you’re stuck in a unworkable past definition of male/female good relationships. You want one to be dominant and the other submissive. Sure, that works. Look at the military. Works everyday. Men need to learn to help themselves to overcome their desire to be the boss and think it’s their inherent right because they were born male.
Robert says
“Two ambitious peoplecmake one bad couple.”
That’s profound man. Personally, though, I am highly unambitious when it comes to material wealth. I am academically ambitious, but in the absent minded professor sort of way.
I could lay in a park with a book and music for hours and type papers, but you probably won’t see me express much interest in trying for an MBA or going to work doing some kind of sales or whatever.
I honestly think this is my biggest hurdle. It’s my natural personality which is very type-b. In fact, I’ve considered moving to Tulum, Mexico after graduating and getting a small place on the beach to live a simple life with less work and less material things.
The majority of women I meet in California are not really down with this sort of lifestyle.
Twalker says
Our culture is rife with this. One can see it on the street any time of day: women wearing mens clothing styles that do not accentuate the female aspects, tattoos all over about how tough they are, loud, obnoxious (although these are not “male traits” many women think they are), short hair styled in traditionally male styles. riding motorcycles, overly confrontational, wearing strap ons etc.
It is a national past time for US women to constantly prove they are like men, yet we shame men for being feminine.
Look at this way; if the poster had said about a man “too feminine”
you would probably know what he meant. But because we have so obfuscated and blurred the lines between men and women in only ONE DIRECTION, the feminist direction, we automatically act like we don’t know what a woman acting like a man is. We know what it is as our culture is permeated by it.
Arbow says
The short hair style isn’t about being mannish, it’s about thinning hair. Or trying to manage really thick hair. Trust me, you don’t want to see all women trying to grow long hair.
I agree modern society hates women and thus femininity is an insult. This is why the women who act like men are doing it. This is why women shy away from traditional female roles.
girl5 says
hes not talking about women in “Seattle” lolCrisula says
I’m a woman from the east coast who lived in Seattle for 15 years..
I concur with James..the women ARE shallow.
Rodney says
Seattle is the pits. It’s the end of universe for the sad sack men and women of North America. The best solution is to move. By mannish women, you’re talking about all of those hippie or pink hatters that wear frumpy clothes, let themselves get fat and grow that nasty unsightly hair on their legs and under their arms, right?
Divaani says
You date 3 to 4 times a week and the women are “all” terrible? WHAT? REALLY! Why do you bother?
And so because a woman “doesn’t drink”, you consider her non datable???
Sounds like the women are NOT the problem. Kind of like James issues in blog!
Tara says
dunno, but, although I’m not too enamored with the pickins where I live either, I reluctantly have to admit to myself, “Wherever you go, there you are.” and I think that, in a nutshell, is what Evan is saying in this post.
It’s a huge waste of energy to try and put a whole demographic into a box. The best approach I have found is to look at each date, no matter who it is, or how long it’s going on, as another opportunity to learn more about myself and better ways of relating.
Seems to me that lots of people are looking for some kind of magic pill, but the truth is that once you even get into the relationship, there are always going to be conflicts, and we never stop learning and growing.
I think that’s exciting!
The journey and the destination are one and the same!
Detha says
James is the commom denominator in all of this. He needs to take some responsiblity for his part in his past, failed relationships. Sadly, I have met too many men like James in my life, one not too long ago.
Nothing turns me off more, than a man who group all women together and don’t appreciate me as an indivdual.
Becci says
This comment is absolutely perfect. These guys are sort of complaining about all women in general, stereotyping them, and that’s why I personally would act the way they’re moaning about. Because of he way they act.
kpak76 says
Except you woll never know who James or anyone of these guys are when you meet them. When you do act like that, you only reinforce his thinking. Isn’t it just like a woman to lay the blame on the man these days anyways? This is why most of are seeing how suoerficial and entitled american woman are these days. Its impossibke to have an adult relationship with the women nowadays because most of you are children who never grow up. Anyways the men aren’t good enough for you ladies anyways. Enjoy your later years with the armada of cats you will hoard.
Dililah says
“Anyways the men aren’t good enough for you ladies anyways.”
Yup, you’re too mature for us. Can’t argue with that grown-up thinking.
Susan says
Lol..pot calling the ketyle black. You are guilty are grouping all women together and acting immature yourself. If you have read ANYTHING Evan has written, he says that you and James accept these type of women. If you want to date someone different, then stop accepting these type and move on. Growing up might help too!
jacknozzle says
You sir are amazing!
sheila says
“armada of cats”..hahaha….
BurnThisBitchDown says
There is a global agenda to divide men and women, so we will be weaker and easier to control. Men let society dictate there identity and women let society tell them a diamond ring is a symbol of love. We are all being played and blaming each other, it’s sad, that is why I am done with women. There is no point in a relationship built on selfish petty Bullshit,.
Jakep says
LMFAO I just spent an hour reading all the replies to Evans article and I havent laughed this hard in months. I have tears coming out of my eyes right now. The get your house in order comment about killed me, my side still hurts. Truth is both sides have been socially engineered to the point of disaster. Divorce is through the roof, men arent men anymore (including me) and women are running around with burger king hats on. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didnt exist. The easiest way to manipulate a person is through their emotions. Yes Eve was tricked first but Adam was seduced by the apple of his eye also. Love one another, men love your wives, women respect your husbands. Difficult to do unless you’re both living a God fearing life.
Lol who farted in the pool… LOL
Greg says
And yet, ironically, he’s right. Do you not see what you’re doing? When someone brings up the fact that–in this particular critique–(American) women are superficial with a huge sense of entitlement, you react by saying that he has to get HIS act together, as if the entire problem rests with him. Well, guess what? That’s a very common perception among men these days. That’s a fact (i.e., a fact that this perception exists). How you choose to address this matter is up to you–but that perception is certainly out there. Stating that guys “have to get their act together” isn’t going to do any more good than guys stating that “women have to get their act together.” A perception exists–it’s there–it’s “reality”–and how you choose to deal with this reality will determine your own success or failure in the dating scene.
Brian says
We need to just stop dating until we reach that age where everyone says “fuck it” – everyone has defects and who cares I just want someone to be with. Basically, once the hormones are mostly gone so like late 50s or 60s. In the meantime, we can focus on being productive towards humanity by working hard and building great things to live with.
Red says
But what about some women making hasty generalizations against men? For an example: “All men are the same.” I would go on with the list generalizations some women make towards men. But I think women should accept the fact that every individual is different from the other. I have never met the same personality whenever I meet someone. Someone said in the comments that if a woman acts shallow or superficial. In many ways, said woman acting superficial or shallow or does wrong does reinforce a man’s thinking on his initial opinion.
Dide says
Detha, this post was meant to be introspective. Guys don’t want ambitious women, that’s our job. That’s why everybody is all pissed off. My gf works, but she doesn’t care about getting the next big raise she cares about the people around her, being caring and helpful. That is a huge turn on to me and in general to men, they say it but women deep down love a ppowerfull man, who can protect and feed her young.
John Doe says
Ew. That was disgusting.
Gregory Patterson says
To be honest I can understand what James is going through. You’re right men can’t go on blaming every little thing on women. But I do believe that there’s a large majority of women who don’t make it easy when it comes to dating and wanting to get to know someone. I mean the reality is is that there are a lot of women who standards are just ridiculously high as well men. So I don’t think James should take the full blame.
Joe says
Detha: technically, James has no failed relationships, unless you call a few (bad) dates a relationship.
Ruby says
Smash #2
<<Women in Seattle ARE terrible.>> <<I go on 3-4 dates a week with women I meet all over town. Granted, these women are awful (any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.) >>
Why are you dating them then? 3-4 dates a week? Is that just about volume? Yes, some people are jerks, and some are nice enough, but we just don’t click with them. If you think a woman is too “mannish” why date her? Is it really that awful if someone doesn’t drink? Surely it can’t be that you know so little about every woman you date that each one turns out to be – surprise – an “awful”, “terrible” human being?
Aaron says
Im sorry to hear how society’s believes and prejudices has made itself broad to affect other people’s relationships. MANY months i have been observing relationships and i have always hated how how society always try to find something to blame and/or classify things when something doesn’t go their way. I feel that men don’t give women enough credit and the affect they impact their lives. Cooking for them when they don’t have too, paying the bills, handling financial debts and settlements and working. All these are great benefits of course but unfortunately, women are undermindedand and when they express their issues and attitude they are more known for being a bitch. Im sorry to see how people focus on the negative than the positive. On the contrary i still believe men themselves too are misfortunant. Many books are posted about understanding men and statement and questions like “how to find the right man”. I see many times men are treated like robots by women fulfilling specific roles for only themselves to them happy.But when a man goes off course its role they try to change the core. I disagree but agree with Steve Harveys book. I agree with it because it doesn’t mislead women to misguided men who pen women to walls after being used like trophies. I disagree it because it opens men to being used for financial in betterment and it makes women believe that they don’t have put forth effort in the relationship and doesn’t allow them to self reflect. Whats also sad is how women declare something “manish”. For example ” its a mans job to make the first move, to be the provider, to take care of the woman, and to pay for the meal”.Love is not made to be someone’s bitch!IT’s okay for women to make the first move, its okay to pay for the meal, its okay sometimes for a woman to be a provider.I know many will disagree with this comment just because none of this apply’s for them or because of the prejudices they hold themselves. However, this statement is not specifically about you, its sbout how society thinks about one another. Thank you for listening to my comment
jgvisions says
I think the issue regarding the back and forth diaologue is a bit disjointed regarding what is happening. What men are complaining about ill try to label separately.
1.) general courtship and the initial date: men are having an issue with these women because they feel that the first initial date they have was a waste in both resources, time, etc because the women lack the ability to suppress their need to be instantly attracted to and impressed with the person they went on a date with. As some of the women put it, you cant blame the women because it is your fault that you are dating these women. The issue is that it is the initial date and they are not actually going on follow up dates with these women. So a man does NOT know that said person is a certain way upon initial courtship BEFORE they go on that first date. They don’t know what type of person they are on a date with and so that is what the date is for.
jgvisions says
I think that is the mating paradox women collectively don’t get. By your logic, I agree men should collectively stop dating these type of women they are talking about. I also agree with your semi-assessment about it just being about volume but the paradox in the fact that women as a whole(the ones who frequent these post) don’t get that it is because of the female narrative and the bats hit crazy behavior that paint all women bad. In that regard the logical behavior would be to cut down said “dating by volume” which would have a corrolating effect of women getting less dates.
I think a good question would be to ask yourself is that is there a real issue with the way women act? Also another question would be to ask the men is where would be a good place to travel to date a different type of women?
Goldie says
I’ve been fighting the temptation all day to forward comment #2 to all my Seattle girlfriends… somehow I doubt that every woman in a large West Coast city is “any combination of boring, judgmental, too mannish, drink too much, don’t drink at all, not very well read, rude, late, etc.”
Don’t get me wrong, I live and date in a Midwestern city where most guys haven’t seen a book since high school… key word, though, is “most” guys, not all. After I moved to a different site, updated my profile, opened up to meeting guys who live 40+ miles from me, shorter guys, slightly older guys etc… fun, energetic, intellectuals suddenly came out of the woodwork 🙂
Justin says
Goldie has the right idea. Intelligent, articulate women who are open-minded and seek out men based on their intellect are a breath of fresh air.
Katarina Phang says
Goldie, I was told by a Seattle man I dated for 8 months that Seattle guys have turned into “metrosexual liberals.” They have no balls, wishy-washy and can’t close the deal with women (they don’t pursue or do the “man” stuff anymore). So I guess, I’m not sure about the causality though, Seattle woman becomes more mannish now to compensate this lack of drive of Seattle men.
And actually a friend on my FB, a Seattle woman, confirms this and complains about this also.
Evan Marc Katz says
This shouldn’t have turned into a debate about the merits of Seattle. The god’s honest truth is that I changed the city to protect the identity of “James”. Which just reinforces the point that it’s not the city, it’s the individual who is at the root cause of the issue.
Taylor says
I also live in Seattle though, and I can also attest to women being pretty hard to please here. And please dont assume lack of results is due to a lack of efforts.
Bill says
Dating is too complicated. I live near Washington DC. My way of coping with a lack of dates was to drive 60 miles north to Baltimore. They have numerous strip clubs where the girls are cute and friendly. I was nice to them and they were nice to me. Everyone wins. I have the time of my life.
kpak76 says
Evan you really are sora clueless when it comes to the dating scene. I understand your audience is mostly woman but man do you have to so obviously cater to their needs? How about just plain truth as you see it? And if this is how you see it, then the power of observation isn’t strong at all with you.
Evan Marc Katz says
If you read my post and you came away with the idea that I was the clueless one here – just for making the observation that sad guys who bitch about women are not going to do well with women – well, then you can return to a blog frequented by similar sad guys.
kpak76 says
Wasn’t just that reply though. Your saying that since “james” is the common denominator. He is most likely the problem. How many single men have you polled and asked them why they are single? A vast majority sees how women today are and want nothing more to do with them. They are entitled, narcasstic, and only are looking for a man to serve their needs. They were never taught how to be givers before being a taker. Why do you think so many men say dating seems like a job interview these days? Lets also just ignore the fact (yes it is fact) that most American women today are obese. Contrary to feminist thinking, obese is not sexy. I know very few men who will choose the obese ladies over slim healthy looking women.
Sure men has their own problems, but that comes a lot due to the downfall of “patriarchy”. Men just dont know how to act like men anymore.
If you truly want to help your clients find a soulmate, well teach them how to be attractive and desireable to the primal instincts that most men have. You have it, deep down you too know what it is men want. The self serving, entitled, what can you do for me, is not the lady we are seeking.
kpak76 says
Evan you are just one man giving women all sorts of advice with what men want. Your missing the point that there are a large and growing amount of men who think exactly like “james” and myself. Women have told us so long that they dont need us and now we are finally listening. This really is a huge social problem that so many around seem to be ignoring. Maybe you should invite a fesh point of view. I know seceral good candidates who can do thism Janet Bloomfield and Karen Straughen are both excellent choices. The man known as “sandman” in MGTOW circles is another. Maybe you should approach one of them for a fresh perspective.
Evan Marc Katz says
Kpak, if you scour the 8 years of archives, I would think you would probably agree with 95% of what I wrote about “what men want”.
The thing that YOU don’t get is that we’re talking about a Venn Diagram here.
There’s what men want. There’s what women want. The point where those two circles overlap is where happy relationships lie.
You are very attuned to what men want, but either tone-deaf, indifferent, or incapable of giving women what THEY want.
But your focus is not on that – it’s on blaming women for their failure to give you what YOU want.
So while I could probably endorse what you want from women – to feel accepted, appreciated and admired – you need to understand that women don’t like weak men who have no confidence, angry men who blame women for the ills of the world, cheap men who keep score, selfish men who are only focused on their needs, insecure men who feel “less than” around other men, and men who think that the answer to being successful with women is to treat them poorly. In my limited experience, the MGOTWs of the world personify all of those qualities. THAT’s why you don’t do well with women; it’s not “women” as a whole.
kpak76 says
Evan first off you have no idea how successful i am with women. You have no idea what type of man i am also. I am not cheap, i dont treat women poorly, i dont consider myself selfish. I also have plenty of dating opportunities now.
I will admit that i exuded many of the characteristic you said because i was frustrated with dating. I cant count how many times I’ve been “friend zoned”, or rejected in my 20’s. However since i realized the woman im looking for most likely doesn’t exist anymore, ive learned to adapt. You see im that “nice guy” who said fuck it and just did what i want. In my 20’s i thought very much like you. I’ve never been happier since i made my realization. Women no longer frustrate me because i don’t have the any expectations from them except the bedroom. I know in the end i will probably live my life alone but as a man i xan vope and thrive with it. Like you said, men deal with solitude better than woman.
So my choice to go MGTOW has beenthe best decision i made for my lifem a stark number or men are making this choice. As of 2012 25% of men 35 and under were never married. That number continues to rise.
Evan get ready, buisness is about to boom for you in the next few years. While i don’t agree with many of your articles (yes this isn’t the first one ive disagreed with). I respect how you set yourself up to take advantage of the enormous wave of single ladies who are hitting their 40’s and is still looking for that “special” someone. I just wish you would tell them the truth and not feminist lies and propoganda.
Evan Marc Katz says
You couldn’t have written a better reply to reveal your blind spots, Kpak.
You think that you’ve got it all figured out with your red pill…but you don’t. Here’s how I know that.
You said you thought like me in your 20’s. Wrong. See, I always loved women. I may have been frustrated and single and went on a few hundred bad dates, but I never made such broad sweeping generalizations that denigrated an entire gender like you do.
You had a realization that removes expectations from women except outside the bedroom. You know what that leaves you, doesn’t it? Women as nothing more than sexual objects instead of cool, fun, supportive, loving partners. But yeah, you got it all figured out.
You know you’ll probably be alone and you’re cool with it because you’re a guy who can separate sex from love. Well, guess what: the best predictor of one’s happiness is a happy marriage. Longer lives, better health, less stress, fun, sex, companionship, family, everything. By “going your own way,” instead of learning to be a better man and choose better women, you’re opting out of all of that.
I didn’t get into this business as a means of following a trend. From 2003-2009, I was just a dating coach, open to working with women and men. But you know what? 80% of my clients were women. Why? Because they actually care to UNDERSTAND men. So why would I provide a service to a gender that was largely unable to look in the mirror or take responsibility for its flaws? Guys don’t want to understand women – they just say things like “How can I get laid” and “Why does she want to discuss our relationship?” This is why there are no relationship coaches for men; they would rather keep doing things wrong, but do it THEIR way.
And there you have it, Kpak. You’re doing it wrong, but you’re doing it YOUR way. Congratulations on your empty sex and your vitriol for women. I’m going to go into the kitchen and kiss my wife and kids.
Ben says
I haven’t followed your blogs in the past Evan…so am unfamiliar with your work-but from reading your responses to your fellow commenters (i.e. kpak, who I don’t necessarily agree with) I wouldn’t be surprised that you are actually a women pretending to be a man, mainly because you talk and think in a feminine tone, I would say. Also you are broad brushing men as much as kpak is broad brushing women, in my opinion of course.
Evan Marc Katz says
I would be very surprised to find out that I was a woman. As would my wife. And mom. And everyone who’s met me. And seen me in my videos.
Christine says
kpak76, So, if “nice guys” such as yourself can’t bring back the 1950s, you’re going to join MGTOW, cry in your beer, blame feminism for all the world’s ills, and date only foreign women, right?
Stizzy says
Going into the kitchen and kissing your wife is a super beta move. You need to alpha up on her or else she is going to treat you like a Herb and start banging Sancho while you are off making a living and providing for her.
You need to think about these things! Your wife already probably thinks you are kind of funny because you are always talking about all of this love and feelings junk. Real men don’t give a crap about love and feelings, they just want a BJ and a cold beer.
You need to make sure your house is in order bro! Man up!
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank you for proving, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no woman with any self-esteem would want you, and that you’d be a crappy husband.
Real men are ones who treat their wives well, are loyal, and give as much as they get, thus ensuring a happy marriage.
Your model is doomed for failure, because one person (your wife) will always feel unappreciated.
Leave the relationship advice to me and go pound your chest on a MGOTW blog.
JennLee says
I think this guy has never had a real relationship. Not one that lasted beyond a few dates. He has bought into the idea that the only way to keep a woman is to treat her like dirt. That is laughable. When you open the news paper and see those anniversary announcements, you can believe that all of them are men and women who treated their spouse with love, kindness, patience, and respect. Both also had to sacrifice to make this happen. But I believe that for them, it didn’t feel like a sacrifice. Maybe the man used to run with his buddies nearly every day. Well, you can’t have that and be married to. No woman is going to sit at home alone, making you sammiches. She may do it for a little while, but when she realizes that you just prefer the company of your friends, she is going to find a man who prefers her company. Don’t be mad when that happens, because it is your own crappy attitude that will cause it to happen.
Learn to strike the proper balance. If you have plans to spend some time with friends, and she makes a fuss that you have to mow the lawn first, you have three options, and only one is correct.
First, don’t get nasty and tell her, “Look, B___, I will get to it when I feel like it.” To harsh to be proper dialogue with somebody you are supposed to love.
Don’t be a wimp, and say, “Gee, OK, Honey, I will get right on that for you.” Too wishy-washy. No spine involved.
The power play is to say something like, “Look Honey, you are right, the yard needs mowed, and I see that. I will get to it in a day or tow, but right now, I have plans to hang out with my friends. Don’t worry, I’m not blowing you off, I will get to it as soon as I can. Just not right this moment.”
This is the best of both worlds. You show her in a loving way that you acknowledge her concern, and that this is important to you, but it also shows that you have a spine, and she does not run you, like a servant, or child. I am not saying you have to put her off every time she wants something. That would get old. But it is not a bad thing for her to see you stick up for yourself in a gentle way, occasionally, especially when appropriate. It is actually very attractive, and makes her feel safe with you. You are hitting on all cylinders with her by being strong, confident, gentle and kind, all at the same time. You don’t have to be perfect at this, you just have to try.
What you PUA’s don’t seem to understand is that it is possible to fool us for a short time. Yes, sometimes we fall for the PUA BS, but eventually, we see it for what it is, and we leave. Eventually we see the cold, callous behavior as just that. Not strong. Just cold and callous. Selfish. Then we leave.
Clare says
Yip, guessing you’ve never had a relationship that lasted beyond a handful of dates or a few weeks. Guessing you are the kind of prince who likes to get a girl into bed and then never call her again.
That’s fine. Ride the wave as long as you can. At a certain point however it just looks sad and pathetic, especially when you’re 65, alone and still trying to pull this crap. Shame. I just feel really sorry for you.
Not Jerry says
Stizzy,
hahaha
You said it!
You will never have a wife, so no worries about that, right Evan?
Christine says
Stizzy, Do you use your right or left hand?
Cara Randall says
That’s hysterical! With the name of the city changed, it certainly brings new light on the original comment from “Smash”. It other words, knock off the chips on your shoulders and try to become the best person you can be instead of acting like one entire sex owes you the perfect mate to put up with whatever you dish out. WOW!
James says
woman are the gatekeepers, they can complain and complain, but ultimately is their own fault. females fail to realize the hold power. woman now more then ever won’t invest in a potential good man to be. they want everything now without putting any effort into it. how does a woman want a confident man when lost of guys get rejected 10/10 times, what do you think that does to a mans ego. men need validation from woman, all this behavior gave way to the creation of the player scene(PUA) and other dating methods for men. men only react to woman behavior and you can see that with all the men who identify them selves as feminists, female worshiping , all the ladies that have 10k male fans in social media. times are indeed changing . i can say men are losing their masculinity because we as society are progressing, men are becoming more domesticated, and men’s need for female validation is a nonstop drug. Men need to curve this and should stop giving a shit. yes you dude stop giving them what they want or need. get a hobby and get of your comfort zone. giving 5% of your mind and time to woman is way too much. believe me eventually they will come to you without much effort from your part.
Joe says
Geez, James, talk about lumping women altogether.
I’ll admit that a lot — A LOT — of women are a pain in the ass (shallow, spoiled, picky, lazy…), but not all of them are the same.
JohnnyD says
After 15 years of no sex, I found out that women WONT come to me, but at this point, I really dont care! Thats what PORN is FOR!!
James Bowen says
That’s the best reveal ever.
Eat it says
No, it doesn’t. It is showing provable data that women in America IN GENERAL have an attitude problem.
How many YouTube videos and websites tell everyone that dating is a numbers game? That men need to be more of what women want?
What are you teaching these guys? How to cowtow to a woman so she will accept him? That’s bullshit and you know it.
Woman want men to approach them. Women want men to be what the woman wants. Women want. Women want. Women want.
What happened to women being accountable? What happened to women having an open mind? What happened to women. Full stop.
I don’t know a single person that firstly, just is themselves (because America is currently hyper sexualized) because it’s the sex that women are after. Secondly when a woman says “I gave him a chance” she is matronizing the guy, meaning specifically that she thinks the guy is less than her from the start. Thirdly, why is it always about the woman? A successful team is made of two people who choose to be part of that team, not some guy trying to meet a unicorn in a crowd of sociopaths.
Change the name of the city to whatever you want. It shows that women everywhere have entitlement issues. They are taught that relationships are all about the woman. Men are just waking up to the notion that they matter too, in a relationship.
Men are past being tired of putting up with women who need a pass from PMS, or a bad day, or being berrated and they just have to understand it and take it. Because the notion of “all women are crazy” is stupid. Women act like brats because they know they can get away with it. Full stop.
We are just tired of it. We watched our parents generation victimize each other and the women vindictively take out their anger on their former mate. It went from divorce and alimony to now all men are domestic abusers and rapists.
It gets old hearing it, reading it, and having it said to you because it is now the go-to of bad women. And there are a LOT – AS IN MAJORITY – of bad women now.
Because everyone tried to give women what “the women wanted”.
There is no cleaning up the mess. Relationships are based on sex for the most part and that has turned men into angry jerks. Because angry jerks are what is in Vogue right now. And good men have stopped being good. And if you help someone you did it because you only want sex and are a white knight. That’s the landscape. And people wonder how Trump got into the presidency.
America is broken. There is no fixing it. Because women won’t change and men can’t stop trying to have sex. The cycle is complete. The hope is gone. Women want the job, the house, the kids, the pets, the car, and for the man to do what she wants.
News Flash: Men aren’t robots or slaves who operate on the put sex into machine and work comes out people. Men want a nice woman who is happy with herself who doesn’t bitch at him constantly and will have mutual loving sex with him. Fucking all the time leads to sociopaths. They only want what they want and everyone else be damned.
I’m right and you know it. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yeah, the “Seattle” guy has to change. That’s funny. Women as a whole need to know their worth and stop acting like they are more than that. It’s old, tiring, and dull.
Nick says
*slow clap* for my main man!
kpak76 says
Lol battle of the sexes at its best. Who will lose? The next generation.
kpak76 says
Yes evan u was EXACTLY like you. I too thought women were always special and that i had to my best to impress them. Why? Because i too bought the feminist lies, hook line and sinker. I thought the way to win a girls heart was to impress them by doing everything i could for them. Basically i was a doormat for women when i was younger.
I know exactly what my choices has made me. A male equivalent to a slut. But since i actually have money now, women dont seem to care so forgive me for taking advantage. But really this isn’t about my personal experiences now is it.
All that is a myth. Your quoting studies from our grandparent age and thinking it applies today it doesn’t. Truth is we dont know because the mass amount of the singles generation has not hit the elderly age. But current studies suggest that marriend men are far more stressed than single men. Why? Because they married a princess who stresses them out.
I have met very few woman who truly understands what women want. Loyalty, respect, purity, not using sex as a weapon to get what she wants, and knows how to take care of herself for her husband. You’re obviously are meeting a certain type of women in your career because they are the ones who want to do something about be uhh ng single. What you’re not exposing yourself to is the other population if women out there who aren’t like this.
Ah yes, im getting judged by a mangina (yup judging you right back) Hope your wife doesn’t take you to the cleaners like most woman will nowadays. Even with your jaded view and hate you display for things you dont understand, i would hate for tou to go throughthat nightmare. Heres to hoping you are among the 40%.
kpak76 says
I habe yet to see you poke any holes in my argument.
Raja says
Katrina, you say that men aren’t mannish anymore, and that men don’t peruse anymore than what they use to. So, are you saying that there is a lack of real men? I think you need self reflection. I would only assume that a woman with as shallow thinking as yourself would have a difficult time finding a really good guy. There are just about as many good and real women out in the dating scene as there are real men. Women have a sense of self entitlement that goes far beyond their ego. Not all women are like this, but most are. This is why men in general have such difficult times in finding good women, because most of the women who are relationship worthy are never single, and that’s unfortunate for men. Men shouldn’t be portrayed as entertainers who has the sole duty of making a women happy at any cost, while the woman only provides sex as collateral – why can’t women think outside their self entitles ego and pursue a man if she likes him? Or why can’t most women do what they can do to please a man? – apart from giving him sex once a month? Good men want a woman who can make a man feel special – but with feminism and self entitlement issues woman have, there will never be any real supply of good women. No decent guy in his right mind would want to be with shallow women. There are some women here who completely put the blame on men, and that the fact that some men who can’t find relationships with a women is because of them. Is it possible that the problem could be that a lot of women who are single and in the dating game, are just out right shallow, fickle, liars and complete users, and or gold diggers? Yes men can be the same as well, but more women have these bad qualities than do men. I don’t hear any women admitting that these are major problems that they have when it comes to dating, on the contrary, they just blame men to cover the fact that most of of these women are just outright arseholes – the only difference is that some are nicer than others. I think self reflection needs to happen on both sides, but more so for women. SO STOP BLAMING THE GOOD GUYS! IT”S HALF A WOMAN”S FAULT IF SHE BRUSHES ONE OFF!!
trudy says
You classify yourself as “a good guy”? From what you’ve written I don’t see the attributes that are in the category of “a good guy”. I infer the quality you pit on women that you hate: entitlement. I also see as clear as neon orange much bitterness towards women. You’ve also put us in very negative categories to the effect that we women are just worthless and € ¥nts I guess! You’re last paragraph is laughable. It’s half our faults for brushing off the good guys eh? It’s the “good guys” (self ascribed, but not that way in fact) who dismiss women who are average looking or even homely. She can have so much else in her favor going on but is dismissed if she’s not “hot” or pretty, or trophy material. I’ve had my fill of 16 years of men dismissing me and other women like this because they only want trophy material. Men like this, more often than not, are losers in every way. Yet they think they deserve what is actually unattainable to them. It’s those men who are a cosmic joke.
Marcus says
If you on a dating site looking for answers get off said site and do these two things look in the mirror and know your faults, not what you think is good about you, those faults are your hindrance when it comes to successful relationships . Number two recognize that there are no relationship experts..! They are only hustlers cashing in on your ingnorance if you have never been in a successful relationship that’s a you problem so stop whining and fix it
Dandy says
God forbid you may have to do something Katarina. God forbid you may have to step up to the plate and step outside of gender roles and societal norms.
Anne says
My ex boyfriend was a self proclaimed asshole who wouldn’t change for anyone and he told me this personally. He could get a girl, his problem was KEEPING a girl and his relationships only 2-3 months. I guess they all thought they could change him and got mad when they couldn’t wrap him around their little finger. I never tried to change him and certainly didn’t want him wrapped around my little finger! After him and I broke up, I cried for a few days and never wanted to date again! But then I felt like that would be letting him win. He was definitely a “lesson” and taught me not to settle for any guy treating me the way he did!! I’ve been talking to a great guy that I was talking to before him and I started dating and after my ex and I had been broken up for a few months, (I made sure I was totally over him before pursuing anything with this guy) we’ve been getting closer but are taking it slow. We have alot of the same beliefs about family, relationships, what we want out of life, what we like to do and all and it’s great to finally meet a man who actually respects women! He told me how he used to treat women and how he had to change his way of thinking, so it can be done, but only IF the guy wants to change. My ex didn’t want to and that’s fine because him walking away let me find someone who was right for me. 😉
gerald says
I am not wishy washy liberal. I’m pursuing success and I love women. But I find pursuing women rather than success backfires. I am labelled a creep or desperate or needy. but I have to pursue in a special way that has to be learned or taught, at least until I get one in the kity (and really I’m only seeking one good one). And closing the deal- ha, I don’t want to be accused of not being able to close the deal. But it may be true. Anyway its all perspective. Life is all perspective. And since women are the buyer (as well as the seller), their perspective matters to me, the seller (and the buyer). I’m a kind of guy who is often hyperaware (i.e. need to relax, tune in, get in touch with pop culture), but I dress nice, am smart, tall, fit, so Doc Love says don’t rush headlong into rejection. I’ve done that 1000 times. Be more cary grant. I think this is true. But I will close the deal when I get an opportunity. I’ll try create an opportunity pro-actively. But ahh life is actually quite orderly, and it makes sense, and is logical- except for dating, which is the opposite of everything else in human life. HELP! I’m willing to work and change. Boy-girl theory from Winning Through Intimidation. Want the other less. Be a challenge- Doc Love. Don’t give a sh-t or f-ck about what others ting. Be more edgy break the rules, but at the same time don’t be a racist or holocaust denier. Point is the reason I probably can’t pursue or close the deal is not because of lack of balls- I’ve done many courageous bally things in relation to women and I’m not shy to ask out, but because my mind realizes so often their Interest Level is low- under 51, and I’m the kind of guy that is willing to take risks but I don’t want to always invest a lot of time and energy trying to raise someone’s interest level from 51 to 99 if it’s only at 51 percent, because it might take a lot of energy, and I could put that into career. But I know I need help, I’m getting older, getting grayer, but I actually prefer listening to women. I prefer when they open, and get vulnerable around me and talkative. I don’t like being the talker. Not that I want to be a friendly beta empath. I want them to talk but in a way that they’d talk to their dear hubby or whatever. And I’ll just listen and not tr to fix, and maybe I’ll smile or smirk. Bottom line, I may need to get more in touch with society and culture (my roomate said girl will think I’m weird if I don’t know who miley cyrus or janes addiction is-wtf) and I need to be more successful in life and grow my passions- and I am on that path or journey, and I need to be willing to give out energy, but bottom line factor says I’m just not making girls interested enough or raising their interest level. Or if I am, they are not flexible givers, but structured takers. Cause I closed the deal in the river the other day- yeah had sex in a river with a stranger to end a year long drought. But anyway Interest Level
SparklingEmerald says
I wouldn’t waste any time with Doc Love. He tells men to be mysterious and a challenge, which to me, just seems to mean difficult and evasive.
Only pursue women who show high interest to begin with. Don’t play his silly numbers game, just read cues of interest. Is she physcially affectionate with you ? (not sex at first sight affectionate, but does she RESPOND to your touches, kisses and hugs) Are her facial expressions happy and excited ? What about her voice. Does it bubble with enthusiasm ? Does she ask you questions about yourself ? When you tell her a little about you, does she have a “tell me more” attitude ? Or is she just waiting for “her turn to talk”. When you ask about her, is she willing to share a bit about herself ? Does she answer your calls when you call (or return them PROMPTLY if she honestly can’t answer them ?) Does she say “YES” when you ask her out ? If she honestly can’t make that date, does she tell you WHEN she IS available, without it having to be dragged out of her ?
I agree with the Doc on not chasing dis-interested women, and women who take and never give anything in return. He also doesn’t advise men to try and bed women at first sight.
But he also tells men to make the woman initiate ALL physical contact, to wait 10 days to call after first getting the phone #, and that ALL conversation about the relationship be female led, INCLUDING the marriage proposal. He also talks to his male writers in a very cosndescending tone, calling them “pal” and scolding them for any masculine acts, such as initiating a kiss or asking the woman to be exclusive, which he claims is the woman’s job.
If I have started off dis-interested in a man, I have rarely ever been moved to become interested. (I can only think of a one-off time where that happened) His relentless pursuit didn’t help, and in fact just made me feel uncomfortable, BUT acting cool and indifferent has NEVER made me start liking a guy I didn’t like to begin with.
However, I have STARTED out interested in a man, but quickly lose interest if I sense a lack of interest or any kind of “playing hard to get” BS on his end. I assume he’s not interested, so that’s the end of it, PERIOD. In most cases these men are truly dis-interested, but in a few cases, I have blown off men who I felt had blown me off, only to have them come back and try to game me some more. When I was in OLD, I had some men intitially contact me, only to try and get ME to ask them out, in fact, I found step by step instruction on a men’s site on tactics to get a girl to do the chasing, and I SWEAR, that article must have contained a direct link to my OLD profile.
My boyfriend of 9 months pursued me from day 1. I responded with excitement and and enthusiasm from day one. He has told me every step of the way, that he enjoys my playfulness (not as in playing games, but as in having fun ) and how affectionate I am. We are both in our 60’s, I guess we both figure life is to short to play games.
He is under 6 feet, no formal college degree, has gray and red hair, and is a man of modest means (as am I) but I find him to be sexy, exciting, intelligent, caring, loyal, generous, supportive, kind and my “dream piece” (No college degree or million dollar bankroll needed for any of those qualities) So either I am a unicorn, or these so called MGTOWs who claim that ALL women are gold diggers looking for a millionaire clone of George Clooney are full of it. Since most of my women friends are either with good -hearted men who don’t fit the 6 foot millionaire mode, or are just looking for a good hearted man who will treat them well (who is REASONABLY attractive and finacially stable) I think I’ll just go with the MGTOW’s are full of it.
And while Doc Love isn’t an MGTOW, he does have a scant few good points to make, but I think his make the woman chase you by being difficult and evasive part of his advice is NONSENSE, and doesn’t just weed out gold-diggers, but also drives away the really good hearted, interested women as well.
So don’t play “Doc’s” games. Look for a kind hearted, giving woman who is interested in YOU (not your wallet) and let her KNOW you are interested in her.
DeeGee says
SparklingEmerald said: “We are both in our 60’s”
This is a key point in your reply.
Rita says
SE I’m assuming you’re reading this blog so you can improve your game and land a great guy for yourself, but when males turn to Doc Love for the same reasons, they’re playing games, being difficult and evasive. Apparentley what’s good for the gender, right? And he doesn’t tell men to «make » women chase them but if she is, well good. The modern woman is used to chase as well as men these days. We chase education, degrees, careers and a high income. Women’s rights have given us opportunities and freedom which is why women initiate most divorces too. A man has to be more carefull in dating now than before because women aren’t what they were in the old days, when we were more dependent on a man and couldn’t leave. So he says «let » them chase you, give them respect, affaction and romance, respect her physical boundries and go in slowly. That’s not being difficult, that’s being smart. To all men reading this, use you’re common sense. If his advice gives you results, don’t listen to women who say date me my way or it’s the high way for you. Go by women’s responses.
trudy says
Miley Cyrus? Are you kidding? It sounds like you only want young women. Which is another reason we women over a certain age are dismissed. Men who are aging want young and beautiful or no one at all. I’m fine staying single the rest of my life. Son done with peers who are shallow old creepers
trudy says
Furthermore, you keep on and on and on about “closing the deal” and confirming my suspicions that you’re only interested in young women. You say “girls”, not “women”. Frankly you sound like a hormonal 20 something only interested in “closing the deal” with hot girls, while denying that to society, you’re an old creeper.
cyp says
maybe because they can be thrown in jail now if a woman gets pursued too aggressively!!just saying..
Christina says
I think it’s always easier to blame the nebulous “them” than engage in any real self-analysis or improvement. Based on my experience and that of others I’ve talked to, dating is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think the Seattle dating pool stinks(btw, I have a few single girlfriends there who have similar complaints about the men), then you’re going to be looking for reasons to bolster your assumptions. If you think that there are a lot of great people out there, but you might have to date a few dozen before you find one that’s right for you, you’ll probably have an enjoyable dating experience.
And in the end, all the complaints about the opposite sex are fruitless: you are completely powerless to change even one other person, let alone an entire population. You can however, make some adjustments to yourself that can make all the difference in your level of success.
Becci says
Thank you for this comment. This is perfect.
xyz says
And in response it is also easy to say you are the common factor in all of this. Look, Evan has something to sell here.
KDC says
Funny how advice is always more palatable when it’s flipped to someone else’s perspective.
On a separate note, Evan, you should check out the A&E 2004 production of Agatha Christie’s “Death on the Nile”. I just watched it yesterday and actor JJ Feild is a dead ringer for you!
Evan Marc Katz says
@KDC – Just looked him up. He’s got big ears and curly hair, but otherwise I’m not seeing it.
Still, it’s better than being told I look like Jerry Seinfeld or Ben Stiller, which is what you get for being Jewish in Hollywood, I suppose… 🙂
Helen says
Evan, you’re hilarious. 😀 I had suspected that you made up the city, but didn’t want to say anything. Seattle just got a gratuitous bashing today. (Sheesh, I always thought the people there were nice…)
I think the first step in James’ case is to lose the anger and resentment. If you’re angry or resentful, that comes across so clearly when interacting with others, and it is so unattractive, even in business settings. It’s not effective telling someone he needs to stop being angry, though. This is something a person has to want to work on, on his own, through whatever means he can (meditation, counseling, practicing a more positive outlook, etc.).
Saint Stephen says
I see guys who complain about not getting into relationship as those who deliberately or unintentionally limited their pool to a demographic confinement. Sometimes to achieve true state of happiness someone is bound to think outside the box- and be more open minded. Nothing guarantees that your sweet heart must be around you. your Cinderella could be in another country waiting for you (her prince charming) to come rescue her. Thank goodness we have international dating sites. Women from other countries are more realistic and will value James or other men more than those women in their demography. Is actually true that women wont change their unrealistic behavior, but you can import a woman with a realistic behavior.
Personally i see nothing wrong with James. The problem is that nowadays women in the US need sufficient chemistry as a requisite to consider if there would be a second date.
Al says
“The problem is that nowadays women in the US need sufficient chemistry as a requisite to consider if there would be a second date.”
Nope. the problem is that women are now independent enough to require EXACTLY the same thing men have always demanded of us, that there be physical attraction. That’s typically what we mean by “Chemistry.” We do also generally hope that a man will not be a misogynistic head case, will have something to add to the conversation and be polite. Honestly, there isn’t really that much difference between what men and women want out of a true “relationship.” We all want someone we find attractive, someone who we have fun with, who makes us feel special, most of us want someone who is committed to the relationship and gives as much as they take.
We only have problems when our expectations of what kind of mate we want conflict with what kind of mate we can achieve. There are tons of people of both genders out there searching for love. The real issue for those who are stuck forever in the dating pool is that they are all looking at each other and deeming everyone they see not “good” enough.
Kris says
yes
Cara Randall says
BAM! That’s an awesome reply! Love it!
cyp says
As Bill Burr says everyone is chasing the same handful of people.
DeeGee says
Al said: “that there be physical attraction.”
While I do agree, I think that many women’s attraction meter is in the clouds just like many men are.
Just as many men think they deserve to have a movie star 10, so do many women.
The popularity of movies like Magic Mike only push this unrealistic fantasy for women (almost no men look like that), just like all of the supermodel and actress stuff of the past pushed it for men.
However, I see far far more men saying they will date the “girl next door” type, but I’ve never heard any woman say the same. Unless the “boy next door” looks like the buff hot plumber boy-toy they show on commercials.
Since most people rate themselves higher than what they actually are, they will tend to go after people who are often “out of their league”.
Most women should take off all of their makeup, and send their photo into one of the “rate me” websites to get a more unbiased opinion of their looks. They might get a surprise and a reality check.
Note: I’m a very fit 53, I rate myself around a 5, I typically go after women in the 4 to 6 range, only to be always told “I’m not attracted to you”. I can only think it’s got to be my red hair. 😉
Evan Marc Katz says
DeeGee – you have a big blind spot. You’ve bought into the idea that it’s Magic Mike or bust concept, when all you have to do is look around at the millions of non Magic Mike guys with wives to disprove it. This is your pain. This is your anxiety. This is your insecurity. But it’s not based in reality. Are some women impossibly shallow? Yes, but I think men take the prize with that one. Lots of older, heavier, men can still land a more attractive woman because they put a greater premium on beauty. So while you have somewhat valid complaints, this ain’t one of them. The main reason you’re not getting any action isn’t “women”; it’s you. That’s hard to take, but it’s the truth. And it’s no different than what you’d tell a woman who was blaming “men” for all of her dating woes.
DeeGee says
Evan said: “That’s hard to take, but it’s the truth.”
After many failed attempts over the years, I do believe that it is me. I am working on it.
and said: “And it’s no different than what you’d tell a woman who was blaming “men” for all of her dating woes.”
I thought I had written my response as more gender-equal.
I guess not.
SparklingEmerald says
DG- Not trying to minimize your frustration, but I just had to laugh when I read your comment that you think “it’s got to be my red hair ”
I used to be a redhead (not naturally) and I debated about weather or not to go back to being a brunette. I actually wondered if my red hair which I got tons of compliments on BTW (from men and women) was at all responsible for dating frustrations.
Then KE posted this HILARIOUS tongue in cheek video where men were giving dating advice based on a graph that showed how crazy women were on one side, and how hot on the other, and giving advice to men based on where women fell on the Crazy/Hot graph. The narrator pointed to the spot on the graph (I think the score was 7 hot, and about 5 crazy) and said, “Now this category consists of strippers and red-heads”, and that’s when I decided “THAT’S IT ! This red hair has GOT to go”. Since I didn’t want to be lumped in the same category as a pole dancer, I went back to being a brunette. (OK, I was already very close to that decision, but THAT sealed the deal for me)
Anyway, the first date I went on as a brunette led to the wonderful relationship that I am now in. That was nine months ago. And the guy I am in love with ? He has red hair ! (strawberry blonde and gray mix)
Anyway, it’s pretty common for men to color their hair now, so why not give a different hair color a try ? I don’t know if you are flaming red or more strawberry blonde like my guy, or more brown hair with a hint of red, but perhaps you should consider changing your color a bit. Maybe if it’s flaming red, just have it toned down a bit. Consult with an expert to get a color that will look natural on you, and go well with your skin tone.
From your self description, I think you should be able to find a woman who is attracted to you, and you have been married before, so you have done it before at least once.
Did you say you are in your early 50’s ? It is hard for EVERYONE after 50. It takes longer to couple up as we get older.
I was beginning to think I must be a big hopeless loser in the game of love (but not in any other area of my life) but maybe my problem was that I was just impatient.
It was almost a year to the day after my divorce became final that I met my boyfriend, I was separated for about 3 1/2 years prior, so it was about 4 years total between relationships. The first year I just holed up at home and had no interest in a relationship, so let’s say 3 years of actively dating (on & off) for a relationship. I thought that was way too long, and I was getting extremely impatient with the process. But many of my friends tell me they are happy I found someone wonderful and they also say that it didn’t take me that long. One of my co-workers said “Geez, you didn’t waste much time, did you ? ” I just said “Huh, it took me 3 years” and she just replied “Pfffffft, that’s nothing, my Mom was alone for 12 years, before she met her boyfriend” Other people tell me their stories of trying to find love later in life, and they all say it takes time.
So anyway, from your descriptions, I do think you can find your match, but I can understand your frustration. It might not happen as soon as you would like it to, but it’s not hopeless. (It just feels that way)
But even tho it would have been great if I met my honey sooner, he was worth the wait. I would rather be with this guy after a 3 year stretch of fruitless dating, than to have settled for the first guy who came along only to end up in a terrible relationship.
As much as I LOVE being part of a (happy) couple, I would rather be alone than in a bad relationship.
Anyway, if you really think your red hair may be a factor, it won’t hurt to try a slightly different look.
Wishing you well in your search for love.
DeeGee says
SparklingEmerald said: “I just had to laugh when I read your comment”
I have read multiple times that red hair color for men is the least attractive to the majority of women.
I was popular while CSI:Miami was on. 🙂
I guess we need more redhead men in mainstream media.
and said: “so why not give a different hair color a try”
Red hair for men is supposed to be the most difficult to dye.
The problem is that my beard, facial hair, and everywhere else will is also red.
and said: “It takes longer to couple up as we get older.”
My last short-term relationship was 10 years ago.
No luck ever since then.
It seems I am always either too fast or too slow.
Either I like them more than they like me, or they like me more than I like them.
Either I say something too quick (like asking for a second date too soon (wha??)), or I’m too slow (like waiting one day too long (wha??)).
At 53 and at least one to two years away from being able to move to a larger city, which will make me at least 55 and close to 15 years single, I have once again thrown in the towel after almost a year of giving it a really good try again.
Karmic Equation says
“Either I like them more than they like me, or they like me more than I like them.”
DeeGee, have you considered spending more time with the women who like you more than you like them, to see if your attraction/liking for them would grow with time?
If no, why not? And therein lies your answer to why it won’t work for women whom you like but who don’t give YOU a chance.
I like you, so I hate saying this to you, whereas I’ve had no issues telling the “entitled” guys this:
Your SMV (aka “rating” if you will) is reflective of the rating of women who will date you (this applies to men. For women it’s not based on the rating of the men who will have sex with her, but on the rating of the men who are willing to offer her relationships).
So if you’re finding that 4-6’s won’t date you, then perhaps you’re not the 5 you think you are. You need to aim at 3s. If they won’t date you, then aim at the 2s. Then aim that 1s.
Or alternatively, try to like and love the ones that dig you already.
Best of luck to you.
Just as looks get women in the door, but it’s their personality that keeps a man tethered; it’s really the same thing for women, no matter how vociferously women deny it. You have to be “attractive enough” to her to get in the door with her.
I don’t like men who resemble Bill Gates…and when I said this, Goldie took me to task because SHE finds Bill Gates attractive and would certainly date men who looked like him.
Just as one guy’s 10 is another guy’s 5, it can be that way for men as well.
Don’t lose hope. But don’t obsess about it either. I’ve found that most of my relationships have started when I was focused on just being happy by myself, not when I was actively looking for someone.
DeeGee says
KE, I appreciate your comments and your concern.
Karmic Equation said: “have you considered spending more time with the women who like you more than you like them”
There has only been a very small number of women from the dating site that are reasonably local (within 250 km). See further below.
Of those, only a few have replied to me (~60%) and slightly less have agreed to meet.
I have driven 300+ km just to see one of them (7 hours of my time round trip — for a coffee). So far we have only become friends (the distance is a bit of an issue).
I have considered what you said, and I have asked the women I wasn’t really interested in for future get togethers, but they seem to be as frustrated with it as I am. It’s not like I haven’t given it a real go.
One of them (god I hope she doesn’t read this blog) is 6+ inches taller than me and size-wise makes up two of me, I like her but I can’t see it working (I feel like an 8 year old hugging his mommie). I’m sorry, really I am.
and said: “I like you”
Thanks. Likewise. 🙂
and said: “Your SMV is reflective of the rating of women who will date you”
I have no issue at all dating a woman who might be classified by some as a 3. The issue still is finding them here.
I would have no problem sending you a link to my OKC profile, for your personal rating, but I would only do it privately and not open here (through your blog?). 🙂
My problem is the very limited number of local women on the dating site. There are only 3 within 100km, and 10 within 250km.
The other women who are interested are just too far away at over 500+ km. Most of the women I messaged who were 500+ km said they would definitely get together if I was local to them.
and said: “Don’t lose hope.”
I am a victim of my location. This city population is only about 15,000.
Either I have to move to a much larger center, which won’t happen for 1-2 years, or there has to be a miracle of running into some available woman outside of the dating site.
Unfortunately, I won’t be holding my breath. 🙂
So it’s back to work and my daily routine.
Karmic Equation says
“I am a victim of my location. This city population is only about 15,000.”
Yeah, you need to move 🙂 Bummer.
I would have no problem sending you a link to my OKC profile, for your personal rating, but I would only do it privately and not open here (through your blog?)
Yes, I have a blog, but I don’t think I’ve blogged on that for over a year. I was in a blogging mood when I created it. Search for Karmic Equation 101 blog. But I don’t feel right about logging in to OKC now that I’m in a committed relationship. Who knows which friends of mine and my bf might see that and get the wrong idea!
Use the email link in the blog to ping me and maybe you can send a couple of OKC screen captures when I reply to your email.
I’ll give you a fair, and honest critique…if you can handle the truth 😉
DeeGee says
Karmic Equation said: “Use the … blog to ping me”
Done.
and said: “you can send a couple of OKC screen captures when I reply to your email.”
Sent to your same email address in a second email, if it gets through. If not, I’ll wait for your reply email.
and said: “I’ll give you a fair, and honest critique…if you can handle the truth”
I can take it. 🙂
As I mentioned to Evan above, it’s probably me…
How many guys are willing to drive 7 hours for a coffee date though… maybe that just seems too desperate. 🙂
buffala says
‘Note: I’m a very fit 53, I rate myself around a 5, I typically go after women in the 4 to 6 range, only to be always told “I’m not attracted to you”.’
How it this a problem with him for being who he is. “A blind spot” Come on it seems that people just are not exceptive of people for who they are nowwa days. Why should he have to change or become some one he isn’t just to please some one? It’s sad that that is what you are saying that it is going to take for the “common denominator” to have a chance if they are not edgy enough or something like that. Yeah some common denominators are complete douches but its real sad when a good person has to become a bit bad or edgy for some one to take them serious or pay them some mind. Just my thought.
A guy says
You are right. Women are financially independant now and so they can search for chemistry much more freely than before. This is good for women but they have been given power while power have been taken from men, so that’s why men are frustrated and don’t know what to do, because no one told them anything while media told women what they exactly need to do.
But also… same thing… you are now financially independant. and that comes with responsibilities and also it means men should have less burden when it comes to romance and leading and they must become responsive instead. Men have not been told this yet so they don’t know their new role while women already embraced their new role.
What i mean is, men should change and raise their standards. They must avoid unemployed women completely. They must avoid women who does not want to take lead or want men to lead all the time. They must avoid women who does not want to initiate and wants to stay passive, like a reward. They must avoid women who does not want to be active, who does not want to spoil men, buy gifts to them, take them to dinners, make holiday plans so let men to have the fun part only.
Women nowadays have more power but that caused them to raise their standards instead of using that power for investing in a relationship, they still have the idea ”my money is mine, your money is ours”, ”we are equals when it suits to me, else a man should man up and be man”. This is women’s fault. Men did not learn to be passive and that’s men’s fault.
Men must stop thinknig that women have a innate value and value them only for their utility, for what they can do for him. You can’t have it both ways. If you have more power than you must use it for men so you will let men to be less stressed and let them have the fun and exciting part and so men will become responsive your efforts and appreciate them.
Laine says
Smash, you are the same as the guy Evan is referring to in this thread. You are “mirroring” so what you project is what is coming back to you !
Change your thoughts and you will change your world.
AnnieC says
@9 Evan … too funny!! And so telling 🙂
Steve says
I love it! A ton of battle-of-the-sexes content gets generated about the dating scene in Seattle and EMK reveals the OP wasn’t talking about Seattle, Evan just changed the name to protect the identity of the person writing the letter.
I agree, it adds even more power to EMK’s point. As far as dating goes people are too caught up in whining rather than doing what they *can* to deal with a less than spectacular reality to find solutions.
Goldie says
@ St Stephen:
“Women from other countries are more realistic and will value James or other men more than those women in their demography.”
As a woman from another country, I’ve got a word of advice to you… if and when you ever talk to them, keep this thought to yourself. You’ll be glad you did.
I had this phone conversation with a guy where all of a sudden he said: “I love Easter European women!” (red flag already, who chooses women based on ethnicity?) “They’re so appreciative of things they didn’t have growing up, that American women take for granted.”
I instantly had that vision in my head of myself thanking him for things American women take for granted… “Wow honey, is that a hamburger? How cool! I never had that growing up! OMG, and french fries too??? I’m sooo lucky to have you” smooch smooch. Eh… no. Next. No one wants to be seen as a poor, third-world girl that can be bought with a handful of buttons and a glass necklace… just sayin.
Terri says
If you do what you have always done – without making any changes – you will get the results you ALWAYS get! I agree that you/we cannot make any changes in others – or in the environment – or the world. We can ONLY change ourselves.
Or we can change our way of looking at things. Many prominent psychologists have stated in different language that “it is not the event that disturbs you/us but our perception of the event.”
Michael17 says
Goldie #18, if I really wanted to sweet talk such a woman, I’d show her the pickle. Maybe then she would be relishing me dipping my fries into her ketchup. Ha.
Seriously, I would feel objectified too if someone were to say how much they love Italian guys or guys of a certain height or build or whatever. Is she into me for me, or am I just interchangeable with anyone else available who meets that criteria?
Overall, very good thread. If a woman wants to be successful with men, she needs to get how we work (including the ways that don’t make sense to her) and use it. Men are probably not going to change, except maybe those of us who are on this blog. Similarly, if we men want to be successful with women, we need to get how you work, including the ways that don’t make sense to us, and use it. (And this is coming from a guy who has railed about how women “don’t make sense”.) Women are probably not going to change, except maybe those of you on this blog…
Nicole says
Too true @Goldie…
I’m American but it slays me that American men have convinced themselves that there are all of these starving, poor, desperate women in other countries who will forgive all of their faults.
So you have plane fulls of paunchy, balding postal workers who think that young hot Russian(or other non-American women) women want nothing more than to marry them, b/c they aren’t “superficial” like American women.
I saw a part-hilarious/part-sad documentary on the mail-order bride business, set up by a guy who did scoop up some young woman desperate to find a better life for herself and her child(the body language between him and his much younger, more attractive wife said it all). So he now takes these middle-aged, less than average Joes to Russia to these “matchmaking” parties. The men walk into a room full of women young enough to be their daughters, marveling at how they were all there to see and marry them. The interviewer speaks to the girls in Russian during and after the party and they were wondering why the men were so old and were disappointed that there were not any young, good-looking men in attendance. Some were on the verge of tears.
So there is a fantasy created by men and sold to other men that doesn’t match anyone’s reality. They do in fact believe that they can buy a poor, third-world girl by just showing up with a handful of buttons. Even if you believe that story, it’s really gross that you’d want to exploit it…some of those girls were cringing when those men tried to touch, hug, and kiss them. Why would you want to be married to someone who finds you repulsive? Just b/c she’s younger and “hotter” than what you can pull here?
jane says
I just finished a 5 year relationship with a man who is now on a large number of the websites portraying himself as 13 years younger than he really is. He says he loves to go to places he never took me, even though I asked to go to these places. On one site he even says he loves to hold hands. I often had to be insistent because he was so uncomfortable with this. He is 74 years old and I am the first person he EVER held hands with!!
From what I have learned by trying out internet dating, it is not uncommon for men to falsify their true selves in order to get a date. My brother even did this by claiming things that were absolutely not true.
We women are expected to not only figure out how to weed these cunningly false people out but to have “game”??
Personally, I;m too tired for this.
I keep myself in good shape physically because I like the attention it gets me. But after watching all the game playing the internet and the POF attitude it has added to the dating scene, I have NO desire to date.
GOOD LUCK to those who do……….
DeeGee says
jane said: “We women are expected to not only figure out how to weed these cunningly false people out but to have “game”??”
We men have to do the same with online dating with women.
I have seen many women’s profiles only to find out that they have posted much younger photos, false information, and shopping lists of what they want in a man.
ennis says
Well, Ms. Nicole, you really fit the bill for an “American woman” with your comments.Since YOU and your local sisters do not want these guys, then do not date them and do not go near them ( you are SO far ABOVE them anyway). The more than 12,000 such marriages between American “misfits” and foreign brides will go on to the tune of a much lower divorce rate.Even if she is “cringing”, as you put it, she still hugs and kisses him because he is HER husband.
Al says
I hardly think that Nicole is being unreasonable or saying that anyone is beneath her by decrying the rampant dishonesty some people online are guilty of. Way to take what she said, totally distort it and use it (incorrectly) to support some wacked out concept you have of American Women. You’ll no doubt always find something to support your world view because it doesn’t require any basis in reality.
Kris says
The statement -‘Even if she is “cringing”, as you put it, she still hugs and kisses him because he is HER husband.’-says volumes about you. Seems that you’re saying that you’d be fine with a woman’s discomfort and obvious desperation to overcome that to survive. Perhaps that you might possibly feel that that’s what women are. That it’s maybe fine and natural for someone desperate for a ‘better life’ should debase themselves. Seems that you think of these women as lucky to have a savior. Maybe someone like yourself. Seems to show how you see women in general. Tools for the comfort of men, regardless of their true feelings. Could be that you don’t see women as people at all. Maybe you would prefer a ‘female’ that would see you as some sort of god. It must be considered though, the cringing and then ‘kissing-hugging’ might show more of a mind of making do with the least objectionable option, rather than any sort of love or respect. Seems that a mind that would desire this sort of arrangement might possibly be uneasy, maybe terrified by a woman with more power, over herself, or self esteem or options. Seems its been hard for you with women here in America with more access to education and basic human rights, harder to find a mate in this atmosphere. One wonders if you’ve ever considered that perhaps woman are people too. One could suggest that you might try to put yourself in the position of these women who could be basically selling themselves into marriage to escape a worse situation. Maybe think about how you’d feel some strange man were the only option for you. Perhaps you’d understand that to get over the disgust of touching and kissing a person that you’ve never met or had any knowledge of, someone who you have no idea of how they’ll treat you, whether they’ll ever care about you or your feelings, getting over your feelings of whether or not you’re attracted to them, would be your best chance to survive.
JennLee says
Nicole, there is a lot of truth to what you said. There are men who have no clue, who think a foreign brides is their answer. Some are unrealistic, and think they are going to get a super model wife when they themselves are truly nasty.
You also highlight a truth, that busts a myth. The girls show up to those parties, and are not desperate to marry just any man who comes calling. They quality women, who are selective, and know what they want. Despite the myth that most are just looking for a green card, or looking to be rescued from poverty, and so will marry any man who comes calling, the reality is actually very different.
However, there is another side to this. There are men who can find a women of a quality they can’t find here. Here is a bit of an extreme example that was in WeTV. The point is that as you watch it, you will likely think that there is nothing special about the man. In fact, as my boyfriend noted, he would likely be called creepy by women 10 to 20 years older than he now wife, who don’t even look as good as her. So you really can’t blame him for finding what he wanted, even if he had to leave the country to find it. I know couples similar to this, some with similar age gaps, and some where the age gap is minimal. One thing in common however, is that the women tend to be more beautiful than the women the men had dated here, and these women have a different idea of what good man is. They aren’t usually impressed with the hot bad boy types, and go more for the nice guy types that women here seem to find boring. They simply value different things. Honesty, kindness, patience, character, stability, etc… all inspire passion in these women, much more so than youth, good looks, money, bad boy image, etc… They seem to be less impressed with false bravado that many women here seem to view as confidence, or swagger. I asked one of them why this was the case, and she simply said that those kind of men tend to be bad husbands, more often.
I knew about this video because a friend showed to me and my boyfriend and asked us what he thought. He recently turned 50, and said he feels a lot of discrimination over his age. Mind you he said he is not interested in a woman so young, but does prefer women a little younger than himself, up to about a dozen or so years younger. He is also in great shape, and decent looking…better looking than the guy in this video, so he feels confident he can find a good woman this way.
He also had a video that showed a man marrying a woman from there, who was much closer to the guy’s age, and she had one child. He thinks he has a better chance at happiness by being pragmatic.
Anyway, you are right that it would not be good to be married to a person who thinks you are disgusting, but at the same time, there are men who are finding wives that do not see him as disgusting, where as the American women of similar quality, did, such as the man in this video. So wouldn’t you agree that it is a smart move for men like him to find what they want someplace else if they are being rejected by what they want here? To me it only makes sense. To me, a guy like the one in the video, is the guy who doesn’t give up, who doesn’t worry about a locked door in front of him. He simply does the smart thing and moves to another door to see if it is unlocked.
Most men that my boyfriend and I know, who are doing things like this, are not looking for somebody so young, just younger. But I know two who are in situations similar to this. One is married to a Brazilian girl half his age. He’s 52. Did she do it to escape Brazil? No, she was already a citizen, having moved here by herself, going to college, and getting her citizenship in the process. She has many men her age still trying to flirt with her. She’s not interested.
Another is a guy we go to church with. He actually met a younger woman on a facebook group dedicated to discussions on our religion. She was actually a little rude to him at first, because he had told her friend that she was wrong about something. She was standing up for her friend. But he engaged her in rational discussion, and pretty soon, she sent him a friend request. Not long after, she started flirting, and recently made it plain to him that she was receptive to him. She’s half his age, and all for it. He’s the one that has serious misgivings over the age, and I think he is unlikely to follow through as a result. I talked to her, and she is serious about him, and has her reasons. None of which involve a green card, or money, because he actually can’t give her a better life than she has there, because her family is actually fairly well off. She’s a recent college graduate, working as a nurse, and also a classical violinist, having started when she was very young.
So I guess what I am saying is that, as always, there are two sides to every coin. You are 100% right that there are some seriously delusional men, who are just nasty, but there are also good men who are being rejected here, who find they are not rejected by quality women from other countries.
I should note that I am Asian. Am constantly told I look younger than I am. Get hit on by men of all ages. And many might think that I am a foreign bride when they first see me and my boyfriend. Some with preconceived notions are shocked to learn that I have been a citizen for most of my life, and that I am very well educated. They assume I should be a with a man who is much better looking, and wonder what the deal is. The deal is that I don’t like bad boys, and I care less about looks than the man on the inside. So I don’t cringe when I look at my boyfriend. He’s not ugly, but I know many women see him as average, and would turn their nose up to him. Their loss.
MikeG says
Hey Nicole, I agree that is some disgusting business; when I worked for the fed, I had a supervisor who did this; went to the Philippines, I believe, to find some young thang…ughhh… So he comes back from his vacation two weeks later with a 17yr old wife. I suppose the fact that we were law enforcement didn’t translate to morale efficacy in his personal life, friggin rached.
Saint Stephen says
@Goldie (#18)
Lol 🙂 …. thanks for the advice- that was very funny. At least Now i know i shouldn’t have to broach it up in a conversation.
Saint Stephen says
@Nicole (#21)
James is not an old man. He’s a young guy with bright prospects. And who says he should go for a starving girl from a third world country? Russia is a developed country. Europe and Asia are also fast developing continents. In such countries you can still find educated women with prestigious careers. The only difference is that such women don’t need much chemistry to consider a relationship and they don’t have a long requirement list that a man needs to score very good in ticking all off.
Al says
What you are really saying is that, by going overseas, you think you can find a woman who meets your heightened expectation of attractiveness but who will ignore the fact that you do not meet that same requirement yourself.
JennLee says
Or maybe what he is really saying is that he is just outside the top 20%, and he has an easier time finding a woman who is his equal who doesn’t feel she is settling because she didn’t get one of the top 20%, especially when she is also not in the top 20%? Did you forget the OKCupid statistics where women placed 80% of the men in the below average category?
Nicole says
@Saint Stephen, nowhere in my comment did I mention the original poster, and considering that you aren’t from this culture, and don’t understand a lot of things nearly as well as you think, so I’m going to leave things there and not try to argue with someone who understands nothing about where I’m coming from.
Perhaps work on making sure you’ve properly understood what you are reading before commenting. I know that it’s not always easy to capture the essence of what people are saying when you are doing it in a second language.
I’ve been to Russia(and India too for that matter). It’s not third world but it’s not “first world” either, for a variety of reasons that are really off topic for this thread.
Ruby says
St Stephen
Apparently you haven’t heard of Russian bride scams, where men are duped into sending money to poor Russian women, on the pretense that they want to travel to America to meet them, or need the money to pay for their internet connection, or for an ailing relative, etc. Sometimes the women are looking for a green card, and dump the guy after they get it. The women involved are not educated, nor do they have prestigious careers. I’ve heard a number of men on Match.com complain about being contacted this way.
If a 30 year old with half-way decent looks and a decent job is meeting only women who are “terrible”. something is wrong with his judgement. He’s not screening properly, he’s not choosing women who really like him, or he is turning the women he meets off in some way.
Ricci says
@Saint Stephen (#23)
But why should anyone force themselves to keep dating someone they’re not physically attracted to and have little chemistry with? Is it in hopes that it will come later? Why not just be friends instead then? And hey, if an attraction manages to form later down the road, then that’s great. Why force it, or act like actually being into the other person and feeling like you vibe well with them doesn’t matter for a relationship. Wouldn’t it make you feel bad knowing the woman you’re in a relationship with isn’t feeling you?
Also, would you be in a relationship a women you didn’t really have much chemistry with?
Callie says
I’m an Eastern European-American woman who gets hit on all the time by guys with Slavic fetishists – who are often deeply disappointed to find out that I’m American and not looking to be anybody’s fast track bride.
@ St Stephen – Frankly, they don’t care about chemistry and that long compatability checklist because they care about your wallet and your American citizenship. If you like that better than being judged by your biceps or your ability to make conversation, fine, but don’t pretend it’s somehow superior to American women’s standards.
Goldie says
@ Ruby #25, yes, this happened to a friend of mine who had this obsession with Russian bride sites. I kept telling him that “Veronica”, that was emailing him, was probably some dude running a scam business out of his apartment, but he wouldn’t listen. Then one day, Veronica writes to him saying that she wants to come visit, and her aunt, who lives in the US, is paying for her plane tickets. There is only one problem – because Veronica’s aunt is not an American citizen, she is not allowed to wire money to Russia. So, Veronica continues, can you send me $3000 and my aunt or I will pay you back as soon as I get here?
I told my friend that it took me six years to get my citizenship, and that, during those six years, I was able to send money to whomever I pleased, including my friends and relatives in Russia. He was so shocked and angry, he actually sent Veronica an email saying that he’s on to her/him/it. Hey, I’d tried to warn him all along…
Ruby says
Goldie #28
I’m sure “Veronica” seemed really nice, and was very pretty too. Good thing you were able to warn him!
miskwa says
Evan:
There are a number of reasons why “James” does not get a reply from womyn on-line. First, has he actually read their profiles and compared what he wants to what they want? This is a biggie; we get lots of contacts from guys that are in no way compatable with ourselves re. core values, family desires, type of relationship they want, our interests, etc. this is why so many of us get frustrated and give up. the dating sites also try and “match” you up w/ folks far, far from what you are looking for and often those that are 1000+ miles away (look at a map dudes). I am surprized by how many contacts I get from smokers, overweight guys (I am an ultrarunner), the politically conservative, guys into ski resort culture and/or motorsports, and those “recruiting” for a mommy for their kids from the last marriage. We get so many of these completely inappropriate “matches” that there is no way one can reply to them all (I get about a dozen to two dozen a day). Among other things, my profiles are very clear re. smoking, downhill ski culture, motorsports (I had a guy contact me from my mountain town that I had actually kicked off of my land because he was tearing it up w/ a [email protected]## motorbike) that I am an environmentalist and Socialist and proud of it, I am waay too old to do the family thing, I am a very active person that believes that folks need to take responsibility for their health. “James” needs to read the profiles first.
cyp says
can you define overweight? Because it is not the same as in women. That is because men usually have higher bone density and more muscle mass. Also the toracic cavity is usually much bigger. The “athletic” man of today in my opinion is a skinny sickly person. A man can seem overweight and also be able to run great distances or do a lot of effort demanding work. Also please define ultrarunner (never heard the word before).
Saint Stephen says
@Nicole (#24)
I know you never made mention of OP. I responded to your post because it related to my earlier set of comment.
You said i misunderstood your comment (which i did not), secondly you quickly alluded English been a second language as the cause. I’ll only remind you that virtually every commentator (including Evan) in this blog have been accused of misreading/misunderstanding peoples comments.
And by the way, you ought to know that i didn’t need to come from a culture to understand much about it. The world over (including those who had never been here) knows much about the American culture- given it’s stand in the World. Lol
@Ruby (#25)
What you said is true. but anyone who is serious and have what they call brains will definitely know how to weed out the Scammers from the serious minded ones. Though i never had Russia in mind (since they aren’t an English speaking country. And far from what you said many third world countries women aren’t starving or green card crazy the way folks like making them appear. I’ve traveled around, and what i see when i travel to Asian countries is the reverse case of American and European men migrating to settle with their Asian Wives. Women stepping up in education and work isn’t an American thing, is a global phenomenon. Infact a woman is currently the prime minister of Thailand, Denmark and if you go places in Africa you see women becoming Vice presidents, governors and senators. Truth is, most women in third world counties are more comfortable than you folks think they are. They might even be more comfortable than many American women… oh i digress.
Saint Stephen says
EVAN SAID
It seems that whenever he goes out with women, they’re all so SHALLOW.
They never want to TAKE THE TIME to get to know him as a human being.
They’re all looking for magical CHEMISTRY and trying to figure out within 5 minutes whether he’s their SOULMATE.
Talking about relationships, We all know that women are responsible for 90% of first date which doesn’t translate to another. Is definitely odd if a woman is struggling to get into a relationship, not for a man. A guy who does everything right but couldn’t produce enough chemistry may likely not even get a second date. Average men struggle very hard in having relationship, the way strong successful women do. From the way I see it, a woman who complains about relationship must have dismissed many men. Which of course means there are plenty of single average men like James. There is nothing wrong with an average guy like James who is finding it difficult to have a relationship. Rather it would be odd if he was a strong successful guy but still having the same problem.
Evan Marc Katz says
I think it’s strange, Saint Stephen, that you’re taking the time to defend James, when James is a perfect example of what NOT to be like.
m says
If you look at how similar their POVs appear, based on their writings here … I for one don’t think it’s strange at all.
JMHO, of course.
Jack says
I feel as though the reason certain people are defending ‘James’ is that some can read the article and see James being told ‘being yourself isn’t good, change yourself for shallow people who don’t like who you are’ and then followed by a couple paragraphs explaining why James and people like James are aweful.
That will cause people, weather or not they can see themselves in James, to defend him, because you verbally beat him, and people (strike that, men) like him.
Most people know someone like James, a friend, a neighbor, a cousin, etc.
kpak76 says
Hi Evan,
You’re really missing a HUGE point with James. Most women I’ve met are exactly as James described and I live an hour from him. You of all people know women don’t gravitate towards guys like James. The only attention I ever get from places like Match or Plenty of fish are overweight women whom I would never date, and even those are rare in between. What you should be doing is telling women to stop looking for that perfect handsome rich dude because chances are they will never find him. You should be telling women that they need to lower some of their standards because this day and age has created a huge group of women who all think they deserve the handsome young multi-millionaire. While they will never tell you this, you know by their action that is what they are seeking.
If you really want to help people connect, help both parties realize that there is no such thing as a perfect connection, and that real love takes hard work. Finding someone to do this with should not be as hard as it is, and it’s definitely not the males who put up the roadblock. I’m not saying woman have to settle for the fat disgusting slobs who have no jobs, but the cute mechanic, or the handsome rail yard worker are perfectly acceptable matches.
anAmericanWoman says
Hmmmmm … I’ve dated fat men, skinny men, latino men, black men, white men, retired men, well to do men, poor men, young men …. I’ve dated around to figure out this stuff. I’ve had four marriage proposals in 5 years. I give respect, I give time, I pay my share – dutch always, I am considerate, I am loyal/faithful (I will only date one man at a time and in that time I will evaluate if the relationship has potential), I’m honest, I’m on time, I listen, I listen, I listen and I watch actions to see if what comes out of the man’s mouth match his words … If I can’t trust your words then I can’t trust you (your actions show you core values and if they match your words), without trust and honesty there is nothing. We are the least honest with ourself and that can translate into a lot of hot air seeping from our face.
What I have learned is this …. we all really are not what we profess and think our self to be. If you truly want to know how you are performing … Ask the question, am I turning people away? Other people are the mirror, look to how they are responding to YOU. It is pretty simple.
I have walked away from four marriage proposals. I am just an average 52 year old woman that stays fit. Am I shallow? NO … as a woman I am myself, I am not your trophy nor your pleasure toy. If you don’t attempt to understand me and my wants and my desires, if you only understand your wants and your desires (as in selfish people)… it will never work as I will stand my ground and work against you in an attempt to get my wants and needs satisfied … it maybe fun in the beginning when the passion is high and the sparks are flying but it will grow cold and old fast. So … that is my yard stick … does he get me, does he care for more than himself, does he see all of ME. I have worked a lifetime to understand and respect men. I have read books after books after books and the conclusion is pretty much this … if he is selfish, if he only gets himself … it isn’t going to work and it doesn’t take very long to figure this out, sometimes it is as quick as one date … run, run, run as fast as you can from such a person whether it be a woman or a man.
I work at getting men. I work at getting the man I am dating. He is not my cash cow, nor a trophy, nor my free ride. I work at understanding what makes him tick and his core values and if he is truly honest with himself (if he isn’t he has no work to do and it is as good as it is going to get … we all have work to do … we all have actions and attitudes that need refining). And, I will not settle for less than what I have to offer … thus four marriage proposals that I have walked away from. Your mirror is how other people are responding to you, if you are like me and most people, you have some work to do. Some people have a lot of work to do.
Future cat lady says
Your lumping all us women into wanting “perfect handsome rich dudes” is hateful and incorrect to the extreme. Them you say we should “lower our standards” (because you think we only want handsome rich dudes). You said you won’t date overweight women. I’m one of those women you won’t date. No doubt there are shallow women who only want handsome. Plenty of gold diggers want rich. A lot of us don’t care what physical package a man comes wrapped in though and we support ourselves and don’t want or need a man’s income, but we’re not pretty or normal weight (much less slender). It is men like you who won’t give my type (unattractive and overweight) a consideration. We are the flip side equivalent of “not rich and not handsome” but unlike you shallow men, we would date men I’m that category while as you and your kind would NOT give unattractive overweight women the time of day. You tell women to “lower their standards” yet you and your type wouldn’t lower your standards in kind. Even though you’re off base about what women are looking for, it’s very hypocritical for you to charge women with being on the get and say they should lower their standards, when men aren’t willing to do the same.
kpak76 says
Evan look around the net, see what men are saying about women nowadays. This observation isn’t just from 2 guys in the Seattle area. It’s across the country.
kpak76 says
I think its strange that you dont realize that most men ARE like James. They are not feminist like you.
Evan Marc Katz says
No, the men YOU know are like James. The men I know are comfortable around women, secure around women, and love women. That’s why they’re happily married instead of part of a “movement” of angry guys who feel emasculated by society. If you are a nice guy with balls, you’re going to do very well with women. If you are a nice guy with no balls, you go around complaining that women don’t appreciate you, and take your balls back by venting on the internet. Try being a better man instead of blaming women for your lack of success. By the way, that’s EXACTLY what I tell women who complain about men.
kpak76 says
Lol again with the assumptions. You make it hard to take anything you say seriously. Feminism taught you well i see.
Statistics say that your “happily married” friend will have a 60% divorce rate (and the main reason that number isn’t higher is because our grandparents generation are still around. You know the last generation to actually believe family is important. From those divorces 80% of them are initiated by the woman. 90% wilk end up wirh the men losing custosy of their kids. And about that same percentage where men will end up losing half their stufg AND have to pay child support. Do the reseach, google makes it easy now.
Again, i lost my anger when i realized i should have ZERO expectations from women. And whi is ro blame that there are so few men out there with balls? Feminist, how many times have you seen masculinity shamed by feminazis? Its all over the world now. Do you want me to get in a debate with you on what this is doing to the world?
Evan Marc Katz says
Kpak – leave the facts to me.
You only WANT to think that 60% of marriages end in divorce because YOU are so bad at relationships. In fact, the divorce rate is DECLINING.
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/marriage/the-divorce-rate-in-the-united-states-is-declining/
Now, of course, marriage is declining too because guys like you opt out of the system, which is fine for any relationship oriented woman who wants a man who treats her well.
But please don’t throw around false figures to make a specious argument. In fact, if you’re over 30 and college educated, your marriage has an 80% chance of survival.
You can go on and on about divorce statistics, but that misses the point.
People who read this blog want to learn to make smarter relationship choices. The goal isn’t to get married. The goal is to be happily married. And if that’s not your goal, I have no idea why you’d be reading this blog.
And while “feminazis” (while not a term I’d ever use, because, you know, the whole Jewish thing?) are not my cup of tea, FEMINIST is a good word in that it advocates for true equality. And as a libertarian (am I right), you believe in equal right for everybody. So you should have no trouble with equal opportunity for women. You’re just standing up for masculinity. Okay. I’m standing up, too. But what does that entail? The right to rape? The right to insult women who are overweight? The right to fuck and not be courteous afterwards? The right to spend two years with someone when you have no intention of getting married but you know that what she wants? Being a man doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you want, no more than being a woman gives her the right to do whatever she wants. I’m all about fairness and civility. But MGOTWs and “feminazis” can keep on blaming each other without looking in the mirror – and then, when called on it, deny it outright. “I don’t hate women!” “I don’t hate men!” Look at your posts. You’re a misogynist parading as a realist. Leave realism to me and go back to your forum where you can rant about women to guys who believe the worst – and will never have the best.
kpak76 says
How can I leave the facts to you when you’re not posting accurate facts? The truth is no one knows if the divorce rate is declining. There is evidence on both arguments, some say its declining, even more say its rising.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/27/divorce-is-actually-on-the-rise-and-its-the-baby-boomers-fault/
Now it seems the baby boomers are at the fun. And no I am not throwing out false figures. That’s great and all for people who attend school, but what about those who don’t? They have under a 50% chance survival rate for marriage. Should we just forget those people out there exist? I date people in both those ranges, college educated women and non college educated women. Why should I discriminate based on education?
The people who reads your blog seem to be people who are already prone to agree with what you are saying. You’re catering to a select group of people who probably believe heavily in feminist ideals. There is another group of people out there called conservatives who will look at some of the ideas your throwing out and disagree. You are right about some stuff, but I couldn’t disagree more with you on others.
Feminazi is an actual word in Merrian-Websters dictionary. If the Jewish people are offended by that word, I would tell them to grow a thicker skin. It has nothing to do with them anways.
Feminism is no longer about equality, it’s about domination of the matriarchy and death to the patriarchy. The feminist movement you speak of was the first wave. Today meninism is what feminism was in the 30’s and 40’s. They are actually about equal rights among the sexes. They are preaching for fair divorce proceedings. They are fighting to retract some of the ignorant rape laws we have in this country. It’s destructive to peoples lives when you tag them with sex offender labels because they urinate in public. The act is wrong, but not worthy of destroying someones life over it. No one should believe that 1 in 4 college women will get sexually assaulted because that is just not true. If it were, I can’t see how any sane and reasonable adult would ever send their daughters to college.
Women received the equality they were seeking once they got the national right to vote and with the pass of the equal rights amendment. The cries now from feminist camps is nothing more than lies and warped use of statistics to get a country to kill off all signs of manhood in this country. You see it everywhere. In popular culture, at your workplace, at school. It’s sickening that we drug up little boys today because they show male traits. Every job I’ve had I had to tip toe around the workplace so I wouldn’t offend someone. On TV or in the popular art, you don’t see any semblance of a strong father figure. Where are todays Ward Cleavers, and Mike Bradys? They are replaced with guys like Kevin James, and Homer Simpson, bumbling idiots. If you don’t think feminism has nothing to do with this, you are sadly blinded by the myth they are selling.
Saint Stephen says
@Ricci (#26)
I understand your points and i concur that you do not need to force anyone to date who they aren’t attracted to. But i believe If this women will accept to be just friends like you said, many of them will wind up feeling attracted to him. The problem is American women need instant chemistry and any guy who isn’t producing it on a first date, will get Nothing. No second date, No relationship. And by this i’ll infer many men are loosing out.
SparklingEmerald says
St Stephen: How many women have YOU not felt initial attraction to, but grew attracted to over time ?
http://www.yourtango.com/experts/julie-ferman/what-if-im-just-not-attracted-guy
Men AND women reject each other due to lack of “chemistry” but this woman interviewed men and women, and found out, more often than not, women will give a guy they aren’t initially attracted to another chance than men will, if there’s no initial attraction.
Personally, I have tried the “give a guy a chance” route, and all it has ever done is create an uncomfortable situation, and/or an accusation that I’ve “lead him on”. Just one more damned if you, damned if you don’t. Women are wrong for not giving a guy a second chance and they are wrong for leading a guy on.
I guess it’s HUMAN nature, to feel that it’s perfectly OK when YOU are the one doing the rejecting, but it’s a huge injustice when someone rejects YOU.
Also, men might think that they haven’t rejected women, but every woman who has ever tried to subtly flirt with you, by catching your eye, smiling at you from across the room, or coming up and starting a conversation etc. that you just didn’t notice, well that’s a form of rejection. I’m not saying that you must walk into a room and approach every woman, but every woman who was hoping you would flirt back, approach, and you didn’t, well that IS a form of rejection, even though you aren’t aware of it.
I find it hard to believe that there is ANY man on the planet who hasn’t actively rejected a woman by not calling for a second or third date, has NEVER been the one to end a relationship etc. But if that’s the case, then surely, there has been the girl you have passively rejected, simply by not noticing her, when she was trying to flirt with you or trying to get your attention. Not saying it’s wrong, in fact the opposite, no one should try to FORCE themselves to be attracted to someone, and I even think that insisting that someone give someone a second or third chance, is in essence, an attempt to shame them into dating someone they simply aren’t attracted to.
As someone else said, dating and relationships are difficult enough when there IS initial attraction. Why would anyone try to navigate all that withOUT attraction ?
Saint Stephen says
@Evan Marc Katz
You are right. I’ll work very hard to be successful, so i wouldn’t have to be like James, or suffer what he’s going through.
Thanks!!
Katarina Phang says
Stephen, you’ve been the advocate of chemistry second/third/fourth, and everything else first. Sorry, hon, I’m not sure how many relationships you’ve been with (but I’m pretty sure you have been in none from the idealized things you said), unless you are in an arranged marriage culture, that just won’t work.
Welcome to the real world, where being in a relationship is a choice and romantic feelings reign supreme.
It’s not about right or wrong, it’s just the way it is in our world here (and I’m sure in most places all over the world).
No chemistry,no incentive for relationship.
Why would I want to be in relationship with any guy whom I’m not attracted to physically? It’s hard enough when there is mutual chemistry. And no, you won’t just be attracted to someone over time just because he/she’s a wonderful person. It’s either there or it’s not You can’t force this and it’s beyond your power whom you’re attracted to. If that was a matter of choice, nobody would be single and lonely.
Ruby says
St Stephen
Nowhere do I see evidence that James is unsuccessful in his career, or that he is unattractive. If he works in IT, he could be making very good money. He’s 30. He doesn’t have to be a corporate CEO at this point (or any).
I’ve also never seen any evidence that a desire for at least some chemistry is an exclusively American trait. Since when are women 90% responsible for there being a second date? Both parties are deciding that simultaneously on a date. In fact, I’d say that women are more likely to give someone a second chance than men are, more likely to wonder if there’s something about the guy they’ve missed. Men are very visual. If a man isn’t attracted to a woman, he is very unlikely to ask her out again.
Goldie says
@ #35, From reading the post, sounds to me like James is a negative guy who thinks everything is always someone else’s fault, never his own. It is possible to be successful in your work, and still be all these things in your personal life. Just based on the fact that James can afford a dating coach like EMK (which I can only in my dreams), he sounds pretty successful to me.
Nicole says
@Katarina, it has to be very hard to understand the way that we do things when viewing them from the outside. Different cultures clearly have different expectations when it comes to dating and marriage, and I think it is always hard when someone who isn’t from the U.S. attempts to interpret what we do and why we do it.
I definitely have known many, many people from cultures where dating is rare and marriage is frequently arranged, and I can’t claim to understand how they deal with the attraction factor.
But I also think that in those countries, people who can get away with it find chemistry with someone else, since the downside to the absence of choosing a mate seems to be that it frequently goes hand in hand with divorce being extremely looked down upon.
So I agree with you, but it’s also true that it can be hard to explain it to someone who wasn’t raised in this culture, especially to someone who has decided to jump on the bandwagon that the problem is that Western women are superficial, trampy, and materialistic.
Heather says
Evan, it’s funny that you bring this topic up.
I once dated a man who complained about dating, he was so nice and they all were flaky, too busy, too this, too that.
What it really boiled down to in his case, was that he didn’t want to truly commit to anyone, and probably still doesn’t, because his Mom wears the pants and has to approve his relationships, and he’s now 40 years old! And from what I recently heard in the grapevine, he is currently still alone.
Usually when I hear a guy or a girl go it’s all on them, I think uh oh, this is somebody who’s got issues. When every date is bad, or everyone of that gender is a problem, then it’s usually that person who’s got the problem. I used to think that way too, but then I grew up and realized I needed to make some changes.
And it’s making dating a lot easier. I just know more about what to expect (or not) from men, and it makes things so much less dramatic, stressful, etc.
Thanks for this thought, it was great!
Gretta says
I’m a Seattle girl and I know a guy named James who is exactly like this and I thought to myself for a split second “maybe Evan just WROTE that he was changing the names but in fact didn’t.”
I am thrilled to discover that both were made up. Seattle chicks are the COOLEST. I think that anyone generalizing HUGE groups of people is denying their own shortcomings. It’s the same across the board. If you keep having to quit jobs or keep getting fired because there’s something wrong with every manager and how every manager does business. . .there’s actually something wrong with you.
If you keep trying the same approach and it never works, change your approach bro.
Ted says
Where are they? The only ones I meet are stuck up and selfish. Well, except the ones that aren’t single.
I’m being serious. I’ve lost count of how many Seattle women I’ve dated and they’re all shallow and cold. Doesn’t matter how the date goes, they never want a second date.
At some point is delusional to suggest that men don’t have a point when the women treat men so badly.
Evan Marc Katz says
What are you doing on a blog that is designed to help women understand men? Illustrating what they should avoid in a partner? This victim mentality blame game doesn’t look good on women; not sure why you’d think they’d find it appealing on you.
Ted says
I don’t think lying to women is helpful. A lot of them genuinely don’t know how harmful their actions are. Even when the actions seem harmless enough and aren’t done with malice.
If they want a good guy then not taking our feelings seriously and actively punishing the desired behavior while rewarding bad behavior is probably not helpful. And yet that happens do often that it’s a cliche.
And considering that there isn’t any real accountability for them until they wake up one day and realize that those guys they ignored and mistreated are no longer available just plain sucks.
It’s a kindness for somebody to be willing to let them know about the consequences rather than be shouted down.
It’s so sad how many would rather pretend like I’m a monster rather than acknowledge the truth that if you want there to be good guys available for dating, you have to be willing to date us or at least not waste or time so we can find somebody that does. Nobody has infinite time and only billionaires have near infinite money
Blaming James for what could well be the women he’s been dating does everybody a disservice. There’s just too many other great guys being ignored and mistreated for it to be something wrong with me.
I’m literally the guy that many women claim to want. I have no shortage of women willing to waste my time for a cheap ego boost. I’m not also going to take the blame for being treated like a sex object as well.
Callie says
Ted no you’re not. You’re not the guy that women say they want. You THINK you are, but that doesn’t make it so. I know from good guys. I’m dating a good guy. Evan’s a good guy for crying out loud. You . . . you insult all women, the concept of feminism, blame everyone else for your problems, and think it’s okay to have a bad attitude because it’s not your fault. None of that is what women are looking for. I don’t know how you define “good”. I assume it’s that you don’t beat women or psychologically manipulate them. But you do dislike women. And you don’t seem to respect them at all. And you think they owe you something which is particularly icky. So for a lot of women that’s really not what they are defining as “good”.
Ted says
@Callie, you say that on what basis precisely?
You assume that I’m a horrible human being because I have the nerve to notice that women have been treating me badly and be upset by it.
Considering the rather sexist interpretations that you and anicewoman have been putting on my posts, I’m not sure what I could say that would make my point better than you two.
And BTW, there are a ton of women that would take exception to your assertion about feminism representing them. Feminism represents a subset of middle and upper class women. There’s a ton of women that disagree with them. And some of the most interesting anti-feminists are women. Not to mention that all of the earliest men’s rights organizations were started by women that were concerned for men’s well-being.
This whole article was a massive missed opportunity. EMK could have used this as a teachable moment about why women should be nice to nice guys or how frustrated guys can do something about it that’s more constructive.
And yet, he took the usual approach that you see in the media to shame James. Granted, he did use a pseudonym and change enough details that we don’t know who he is, but he did shame him none the less.
Ultimately, karma does exist and expecting that men will put up with this sort of abuse and neglect purely because women are entitled to better treatment is ridiculous.
I didn’t choose to be sexually abused by my female classmates when I was a kid. That was something they chose to do and I find it to be highly problematic that you just assume that I’m a monster that doesn’t know how to treat women for the mere crime of calling them out for abusing men.
I put the messages here with the hope that at least one woman here would realize that being mean to nice guys is bad for everybody.
But, considering how little value society places on men, I shouldn’t have been surprised.
There’s still a chance for you folks to find somebody, but if you can’t learn to treat men with respect and value for our sake, perhaps self-interest will do it. No guy in his right mind is going to settle for a woman that views men as less than human.
Julie says
To #2: Smash, I personally think that men in Seattle are not all that great either. 🙂
So far I have never met a Seattle man who would be smart, funny, holding a job, good-looking (at least, not obviously disproportional and taller than 5″5), single and interested in me at the same time.
I really don`t know what the heck is going on with Seattle. Could it be that all the good Seattle men are paralyzed and bed-ridden after getting into some horrible skiing and biking accidents? Go figure.
Ted says
Or perhaps sick of being treated like mr. Rightnow rather than a potential Mr. Right.
There’s plenty of good guys, but we get cranky and bitter from all the game playing.
Joe says
Maybe they’re only 5’5″ because the coffee stunts their growth.
NonExist says
Well one cannot fill a cup that is already full.
Or something similar quite a few martial arts sensei always say about students who refuse to be taught.
So James is going to keep having issues. Plus his being negative is probably the main thing holding him back.
And I’ll bet it was one or two women that have him that way.
I have the opposite problem. I can find a pretty good amount of personalbe ladies in my area. Problem is the ones who actually are interested in me seem to all want marriage and kids. ?Which they express after 3-6 months of dating.
And I prefer a long term committment where each of us has our own place so if one person wants out I do not have to deal with court cases, moving out, ending a lease and all the other legal and financial matters that come with which I have already gone through once.
Jim says
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and defend the OP. And it doesn’t have to be Seattle it could be any city in the U.S. Women these days are incredible; as in judgmental beyond belief. I’ve had women reject me within 3 words of an email from an incredible written profile. It really doesn’t matter what you do, what you say, how you dress or how you act; it is never good enough. They whip out the “creepy stalker freak” label before you’ve even opened your mouth. And then they turn around and use the “why are men so passive and won’t take charge” excuse. Well ladies, men are so confused at what you want they are afraid to say or do anything because they are afraid they will be arrested. Frankly, it is far easier and safer to stay home and watch porn. The next time you start judging someone you don’t even know and whip out the “creepy stalker freak” label please think of this: you are ruining the dating life of men and women everywhere. Just shut the hell up, try to relax and have an open mind, and really try to just have a good time. Then teach all your girlfriends to do the same.
DeeGee says
Jim said: “it is never good enough”
Wow. I’ve had some poor responses from women, but nothing this bad.
Dora says
Gretta /41/ – so well said – great…
We all come to the stage of blaming the opposite sex for everything,but I agree with most of the ladies here- ARE the men who just mess things around , at least in most cases, regardless a woman gives them a chance or not. Men just do not give a damn what a woman want, men are selfish and selfcentered and have their ow agenda and..yes…PLAY GAMES – they lie,they deseive with the only goal – to get laid. Is said that men are straight forward and go directly to the point -noooo, not true, they play games, can promice the world to a woman just to get what they really want… Evan is by far one of the most true direct men I ever heard of…Good on you ,Evan, I envy your wife.
45-Jim said women have to relax and enjoy and wait…hey,Jim,wait for what..? If you didn’t want relationship on the first place,what will lady waiting lead to- you changing your mind…?! Don’t think so.. Or if you already told the woman you love her and you keep going out with her and loving your time together- than what is your problem to have relationship and move things forward..Whats wrong in getting married and having family, why men should play games
Everyone have to honest and straight forward from day 1 – the truth may hurt ,but the pain will pass and the gratitude from the truth will come. LIes and games are much, much more hurtful and last veeeeery long time and than transpare onto next partner or notion of such..They also do not give a choice to the person , lies are controlling instrument for men to get their momentum satisfaction.. So, you James, not only have to change yourself,but you have to start be honest and straight forward and if you do not want relationship – say it to the lady. Women will love the honesty. If I could I would attach here the saga of “Prince Arthur and the witch” – is very , very good in all those topics.
Formalhault says
I have to agree here I am from cali and plus I have lived all over ther world. I’ve been stuck in this miserable failure excuse of a dating scene for 7 years and I must say that these women are some of the coldest, most frigid, bitchiest, immature, emotionally inept, self entitled, passionless, stuck up and ironically enough easiest to get into bed instead of a relationship females I’ve ever dealt with in my life.
marymary says
Formal
i don,t get it. They will have sex with you but don,t want a relationship?
Formalhault says
sex is way easier to come by than a relationship here.
you know the biggest realization i have came across about this place is that people are afraid of eachother.
this is no passion, excitement, or sexual energy.
just fear
Amy says
Well, look at this. Mel Gibson ended up with the woman he was with and then turned around and complained about it. Look at the woman in the movie Signs that he was with. Now compare those two women. No wonder he went crazy. He is supposed to be with someone for their spirit and picked someone for her looks. No wonder!
JennLee says
That is most of Hollywood. People there are too worried about looks and their own image. The person they marry must fit the appropriate image. This is true for both men and women there. I also don’t blame them. I once took part in The Bachelorette forums, and a discussion on Jennifer Aniston started. It was about who she should pair up with to form a Hollywood power couple. It seems some Aniston fans were rankled at the way Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie had become a hot item. I suggested that she should find a man that she loved, and not worry about the image. I made the statement that her perfect mate might not be famous, might even be a construction worker. You would have thought that these people were Catholics and that I had suggested the Pope marry a prostitute drag queen. So that proves that famous people like Aniston are not free to marry who they want. Her fans wouldn’t stand by her if she married a construction worker. They wanted her to marry somebody like George Clooney.
VeryMuchTrue says
if we had much more better educated women out there today, then many of us good men would not be cursed at by them when we are trying to start a normal conversation with the one that we are attracted too.
Jennifer says
#51
‘much more better educated women’? :-/
VeryMuchTrue says
#52 very true, and i never expected to have a woman Curse at me when i thought that she was nice to meet. would i Curse at a woman if she came up to me to start a conversation with me?, certainly not. that just shows you how many very nasty women that are out there these days, what a shame. then they wonder why us Guys can’t meet a decent woman anymore. then again, these type of women are certainly not worth meeting anyway.
judy says
Yes, a change of attitude helps a lot. For me, learning to date again, and trust again is a big thing.
What helps me enormously is feedback from some of the kinder gentlemen on here, and those out in the big wide world – those who are married and treat me with respect and don’t come on to me.
Those singles who tell me I look great (and I tell them when they look great too).
The everyday men in our lives who smile at you or who are just sweet.
Looking round at men and asking myself, hey, if he was single, and asked me if I wanted a coffee, would I say yes? (Yes, I jolly well would!)
Matt says
Women have been elevated to God status in this society, and the worst part is most women believe that crap.
Every American woman is waiting for Brad Pitt or George Clooney to wisk them off their feet….even when they are 300 lbs.
Karl R says
Matt, (#55)
I constantly tell women that they need to change their approach to dating. So does Evan.
Guess what. You’re still not going to get a girlfriend.
Even though I tell women they need to change, I also tell women that they should avoid men like you … and VeryMuch (#51), and Formalhault (#47), and Jim (#45), and James (original post) etc.
Any man or woman who blames the opposite sex for their own dating difficulties is going to be a lousy boyfriend/girlfriend. This is true for the men I mentioned here (and many more like them). This is equally true for the women who keep insisting that Evan needs to tell men to change.
If you’re a woman who has been insisting that men are the problem, and Evan needs to tell men to change, you sound just as unappealing as Matt, VeryMuch, Formalhault, Jim and James. They’re not going to stand a chance until they realize that they need to change.
Think it through.
jane says
INTERESTING….. but I agree that TRUTH is the game changer. You are #53. I suggest that #43 came across as a rant…. but the jux au pont is important and correct in this mix.
In general…
Men seem to take the approach “whatever gets me the attention that I need” is best.
Women are more focused on sharing. One equals honesty, one equals lies and puffery.
Rose says
I agree Karl telling other people to change what they do is useless.
The only people we can change is ourselves and we have to want to do that. By doing this we may inspire them to want to change themselves or they may still not want to. If they don’t we just have to decide if it is a dealbreaker to the realtionship and if we are a match. Or if we don’t like it but will tolerate and live with it.
examples would be if we are with a man or woman who drinks too much and we would like them to change and stop drinking.
We could keep trying to make them change, nag, cry, plead, hide their drink etc. Or we could simply change what we do and stop focusing on trying to change and control what another person does.
Out the focus back on us and state that we no longer want to be in a relationship with someone who gets drunk. They then decide that they want to stop or not. Either way if being in a relationship with a person who gets drunk makes us unhappy this way change will then occur. Either they will decide themselves they want to stop or we decide we are leaving the relationship. And get to choose a better person and match for us which will make us feel happier.
By changing what we do, we open the door for change one way or another to occur.
Same with monogomy. Or any other issue that is important to us.
When we blame other people for our unhappiness we are putting our lives and happiness in their hands. Giving away our power and control over our own lives and happiness.
Goldie says
I just scrolled up and read #45, wow. Show of hands – how many women here have actually used the words “creepy stalker freak” in an email to a guy, or on an actual face-to-face date? I know I haven’t. None of my guy friends that are single and dating, have ever been called one. I would say, if a man gets called “creepy stalker freak” by a lot of women he tries to date, then it would probably do him a lot of good to sit down and reflect on what about him may have given off this vibe. Like really sit down and analyze – what was the thing you said or did right before she said “creepy stalker freak”? Because it sure enough is not a common occurrence!
Lewis Michael says
Lucky you’re in the US of A. You clearly do not know British women. That line is a staple of many around these parts.
AJ says
Well with the kind of women that we have out there nowadays really speaks for itself.
Greg says
The basic flaw in your reasoning here is that James is expected to change himself, almost entirely; to perceive women differently, further change his “intent” which translates from finding a woman to love, reproduce, and build a life with, to one of reckless abandon and blatant disregard to any outcome, further allowing any pieces to fall where they may along the way. What you’re talking about equates to self fulfillment which, unfortunately, never coincides with the safe and strong foundation which James is seeking in the form of a family he can call his own.
At no point did James convey that he had a problem getting laid; that’s easy in a liberal society where the average woman’s mentality is most comparable to that of a trollop in nineteenth century, merry old London, further every bit as incompatible with a family now as they were then. Therefore, as a “dating coach, perhaps you should recognize that not every client is out to simply get lucky…
Tom R says
I’d never spend thousands of dollars on a dating coach. That’s absolutely ludicrous!
James, if you ever read this (unlikely as that may be) just continue to be who you are. Don’t change for anyone, least of all women. Focus on what truly matters to you (for me it’s friends, family, music and my career in the entertainment industry) and everything will fall into place.
There’s no point in changing who you are just so you can be with someone. If a woman isn’t interested in me then so be it. I don’t give a shit.
Tim says
Boils down to women or I should say most women in the US are self absorbed by feminism, Hollywood and Liberals. It is what it is, I have no sympathy if they are alone for the rest of their lives.
daniel says
you should try a different angle as a coach.. rather than trying to change his approach or note being able to find him the right woman you might consider exploring why he is not attracting the type of women he wants… i work as a spiritual coach and most of the time we dont receive what we want when we are afraid of it.
Kansas says
LOL. I’ll walk side by side with a woman in a relationship. Let her and every one else know she is the only one. But There will be no bending over backwards. You either want a relationship, or sugar daddy, and I’m not intetested in surgar babies.
Becca says
Great post! Nothing is more off-putting to me as when a man exhibits bitterness/distrust/entitlement toward womankind in general, and it’s even more damaging to the man when he does so online! I often baulk when my male friends post such status updates on Facebook, and also when I read online blogs with similar themes. I always think to myself “These kids are digging their own grave!” Suppose these men did actually attract this ‘Perfect’ woman they so desire (and believe they deserve). This lady will probably eventually read the blog, and scroll through the Facebook page, and see these comments. I’m certain this would result in this woman seriously questioning who she was getting involved with! I bet these are not men who will find their woman beautiful during pregnancy, and who will continue to love and respect her as she grows older. Of course the same is true for women, and I imagine it is very off-putting to detect bitterness and resentment in the way a woman speaks of men in general. Great article Evan! I hope many men heed your advice!!
starthrower68 says
One thing I’m learning as I spiritually mature, and it’s very freeing, is just to accept folks where there at. By that, I don’t mean you must be romantically involved with them; I mean you accept them where they are, provided it’s not unhealthy or dangerous. We’re all at different places on this journey and we all have our own race to run. I still don’t know if I ever want to be in a relationship or not, but I have learned a lot as a result of paying attention to what Evan has to say. I was quite naive until I stumbled upon his blog. We don’t have to see eye to eye on every exact thing to benefit from one another’s wisdom and insight.
Lorraine says
SO true.. so many men are so bitter and angry I would HATE to meet them.
No wonder they cant find women who are smart… and never will.
Life is like a box of chocolates,, you never know what you are going to find.
So,,,, stop grouping them all together. IF you meet a girl in a bar,,she probably drinks,, duh,, its not rocket science. The perfect women does not exist. I can think of dozens of things I need to improve on and I am so lucky to have a good man. (a top scientist in his field) I am not that educated but I have traveled and I am very informed about todays political and economical issues,, we can all learn.
One of my neighbor’s is a singleton and I know why… he is so full of himself and expects the women to do all the work (he wears sweats and she must look like miss Universe) in the relationship. I want to tell him but if I mention it he just complains and says:”””Its them not me”””.AHHHHH.
He is almost 50 and still single..I think he likes it that way or he would change.
RustyLH says
“You’re not “wrong” that men could improve in 100 different ways. You’re mistaken in thinking that men are going to improve. Your job isn’t to CHANGE men.
It’s to become the kind of woman who UNDERSTANDS men, ATTRACTS men, KEEPS men happy, and CHOOSES good men. This is the key to a successful relationship.”
I think this is why I tend to enjoy time with younger women instead of women more in my target range. With women in my target range, a date often feels more like a job interview, and may men I know have expressed these same sentiments. But Evan is right…I can’t make women in my target range change to be a woman I want to be with. And yet I am at a loss as to what I can change to make this better for me, because it isn’t that I am not attracting women in that range, it’s that I don’t like what I am finding.” I refuse to be in a relationship where I feel I am always going to be the default person who is to blame for everything. Always the bad guy. Sometimes it feels like the more you try to be the good guy, the more you get blamed for what’s wrong.
starthrower68 says
Another thing I have learned is people are going to be who they are. Extend grace even if it’s not reciprocated. Sometimes we do the right thing for no other reason than it’s right. Doesn’t mean you have to stay involved with the person who mistreated you. But one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. That’s no less than Evan encourages women to do. He just sprinkles his message with a lot more grace.
anAmericanWoman says
Very interesting about being the blame guy. In my current relationship, that I am dumping, this man can insult me, mock me, not show up on time, flake on me and he sees nothing wrong with this … I am wrong to not be understanding and to have “thicker skin”. He states … he can do no right in an attempt to shut down my dislike. This relationship isn’t for me and I will be yet another evil American woman that has rejected him. I do not insult him, mock him, I honor my word, I do not gawk at other men in his presents, etc. Have core values now become “work” ?
Nasty Nate says
I would hate to agree with James in the story, but women nowadays are very shallow! I’ve played the dating field for a little over 2 decades, & women nowadays, even the ones that are from my generation & were not shallow 10-15yrs ago, have become very shallow. More then likely it is because of how society has shifted its thought process on dating in general, that women also have become more independent then 20 plus years ago, & well media has put a lot of ideas in our heads too. I know I will get a lot of flack for what I am saying, but it will be because what I state is fact, & no one women or men, like hearing the truth. See women are looking for their prince charming that will sweep them off their feet, take care of them & their kids from different men, or just be the perfect mate, tall, dark & handsome. This is how more & more women see dating nowadays, you see it online dating all the time! Women making states like “I won’t settle for anything less then the best!” Or “I am looking for the perfect man that is not only cute, tall, & has a career but also is funny!” Etc etc etc & the majority of the women do this. When my parents were dating & their generation was coming of age, height/status/looks were not the focal point like today. Sure they women wanted to date someone cute but if he worked at the local burger joint & was 5’6″ & rode his bike everywhere, long as he made them feel special at that moment & made her laugh, everything else was perfect for her. Not any longer, the man could be 5’8″ a tad chubby & make $25,000 a yr, has a workable car, & could be the funniest sweetest man around but he is not datable to most be cause he is not of 6′ or he is not in shape enough, or he isn’t making enough money to support her! These are facts that occur in online dating nowadays! It has happened to me, my friends, some family, & it is sad & pathetic that most women are becoming the men they so hated 20 plus years ago. You know ladies, the men you’d complain about to your friends that only wants to date sexy women that put out on the first date! I mainly blame shows like sex in the city & media for the way most women have become. Hell it has gotten so bad, most women will not date a man that has custody of his children but wants men to date her & accept her children, double standards! I am one of those men that is only 5’6″, I make $40,00-$50,000 a yr, am a little chubby but trying to get into shape, & have full custody of my children, yet once women see men in person & find out that I do have full custody of my kids, most never talk to me again because either I’m too short for them tho I am taller then they are or they don’t want to have to be apart of other kids lives full time when they have their own to worry about, even tho I would accept their children. These are facts I am stating, because these things have happened, & I cannot change my height or would never give up my children for any woman. Maybe it is women that do need to change, see that once they cross 40yrs old most men don’t want them anyway, so they better start “settling” more & seeing thru the minor details & start looking at that person for who they are not what they have to offer or look like!
Peter Vujin says
It is, after all, simple, really. Divide and conquer. That is what has happened, except this time the people have been duped in their personal life. Who benefits? The pyramidion…think about it…women have become worse than men…men have never been good…how can a good society come out of this? Aha – so now you know – all this is an aspect of depopulation and other social programming, while you are worried about paying your bills, some are worried about paying your pensions, so as they see you as human cattle, they would rather you hate each other than actually love each other and form a strong community. THAT they are afraid of – everything else they can influence, change, profit from…;) ps. Don’t give in – refuse to conform – be your own selves – forget the rest.
DeeGee says
Peter Vujin said: “all this is an aspect of depopulation and other social programming”
Good grief. Where is the face-palm button. :-/
Conspiracy-theory much?
B says
So what’s a guy to do when he goes on a lot of first dates and there’s lots of smiling and laughter? Yet gets told repeatedly there’s “no connection” or “no chemistry”? I’ve tried to change. Be a little more flirty. Not so attentive. I don’t ask dumb things like “how is this going” when we are on the date. I’m not bad looking not great looking but I am very thin. It’s my body frame and I’ve tried to work on it by working out but there is only so much I can do with it. Many of the same women have dating horror stories or boyfriend horror stories yet do not give me a second chance. Including one who kissed me for fifteen straight minutes after the date and told me I was “cute, charming, smart and funny” but that knew we would “never kiss again.” My point being that I have made a conscious effort to change what I can. I am attentive to women as individuals. The only times I have had someone call me back is when I showed frustration because they did something really outlandish. By outlandish, trust me, every woman I told agreed, it is just too lengthy to post the stories here. Bottom line. I have tried to change and I treat women with respect and I get the “great guy, no chemistry” line more than you can probably imagine. So what’s a guy to do when he has tried to change, when in spite of being disillusioned he tries to treat women as individuals, yet they still fundamentally act the same toward him? I have dated women of all different backgrounds and shapes and sizes. If we meet online, obviously they liked the picture enough to go out. Then in some cases they liked me enough to stay on the date for several hours laughing and talking. Then they make an excuse to not see me again. I’m sorry but when I have already made more conscious efforts to do things differently than I can count, I can only include many women are indeed the same when it comes to evaluating men. I now avoid anyone who has a bad relationship history with men if I can screen that out before meeting. In other words, cheating or abuse. I seem to do poorly with those kinds of women particularly. Hopefully screening that way helps because it is all I have left.
DeeGee says
B said: “My point being that I have made a conscious effort to change what I can.”
I often feel the same way.
My only recommendation, keep working on yourself, keep improving, keep trying, stay positive, and trust that some date will be with a person who feels the same way back as you do.
Hockster says
So, basically, no one is helping or guiding James with what could be a wider issue than dating problems. He’s just to be used as an example of the kind of guy not to be. What happens when he becomes frustrated with his life to the point where it’s no longer bearable? Society is so narrow-minded these days.
Sebastian says
This is a allover Western World phenomenon. Why there are differences in culture that vary and being oblivious of them could short cut a date to an early and unsatisfying end, the dating experience above is the same. Evan, your article had a lot of potential you let slip. This feeling and this experience of women, who behave like kids and expect a man to perform while out on a date with him is exactly what I had the last dozen dates in Germany and guess what? I had this feeling of dating sucks. I continued and changed my approach only with the same results and sometimes there is a second date and some kissing. That’s it.
There are a lot of guys like James, by I script him differently, what about if he tells you he wants to submit anything to change, but being honest he does not know if can do so well. Because you are still suposed to be yourself and not pretend to be some phony persona you are not. So this would be interesting, instead of pointing out that James sucks forever. He might conclude to submit himself to change in a while. How about that? It’s a lazy story. Pity!
Ron says
To Jennifer #49, Grow up already.
Jenny Ravelo says
He probably knows he’s the problem, but recognizing it threatens him because he’d have to face many of his own defects. This is true for so many people.
timetobemyself says
He could be unlucky.i work on myself.im in therapy.i work hard.but i still attract men who are like the women james described.im sorry but alot of people now do want to click immediately.its the world today.maybe it is just bad luck.i think best thing is to not try too hard to get somebody and keep busy.i have changed my hair and clothes and approach lots of times.i believe that i should be myself and the rite person will come along when the time is rite.cos sometimes it just is being in the rite place at the rite time.beating yourself up and hating yourself cos you have had bad dates is really dumb.
Lorraine says
I think instead of blaming the women for being rotten , why not read books like “Men are From Mars Women are from Venus” I love that book and wish my boyfriend would read it more.. My boyfriend (of 10 years) is a scientist PhD and very geeky and nerdy,, he is very handsome and tall a big mix of weird things but he loves to talk and we are always going somewhere… my advise to James “angry in Seattle” is get these girls to go somewhere on a trip where they can see you in a setting other than a dinner setting or a bar.Yuk, That way they can see you in different situations. I am never comfortable having dinner with a stranger and if I get drunk its going to bring out the weirdo in me.
So,,, say something to the cutest girl you see “Hey,, Im going skiing this weekend would you like to come?” ( NO date.. just a day out.) OR get a pal to hook you up on a blind date and go bowling.. or to a movie.. No embarrassing intimate places..please. Too much pressure to be perfect. IF she says no,, then you saved yourself some time.
dfsdfsdfs says
@Lorraine You’re not comfortable having dinner with a stranger, but you are comfortable driving into the wilderness for two hours and spending the day on a mountain with them?
m says
Um … how do you know that they’re not going with friends? How do you know there aren’t going to be a bunch of people around at the lodge?
And how do you know that Lorraine might or might not be uncomfortable about dinner with a stranger for entirely different reasons that she might or might not be comfortable being invited to go skiing?
For starters …?
Pablo says
I was with you until I read “Seattle”, that place… The only solution is to get out of there. Book a ticket to Thailand and never ever go back. Settle in Europe afterwards, or South America.
Duke says
Women can hold out 100X longer than men. A (healthy) man has trouble going ONE week without sex. A woman can go 100 WEEKS (2 years) without sex before she starts getting desperate (like a guy)!
In other words, women don’t need sex.
THEY NEED RELATIONSHIP.
The problem for guys is that women can get relationship from other women (and even sex.) Men on the other hand cannot get sex from other men. Therefore women will ALWAYS have the power in a sexual relationship.
My point? Go climb Mount Everest. Climbing Mt. Everest is EASIER than getting a woman into bed.
The End.
T. Storla says
It is true that the women in Seattle, or any other city or place, can not be changed but it is possible to leave the USA for a country where the dating environment is friendlier. I do not really know if I would have been successful in the USA on the dating scene or not since very early on I found American women to be unfeminine in comparison to women from many other countries I visited. I have been very successful in all the foreign countries that I have lived in or spent a lot of time in without the need to jump through any hoops or play any games.
Stickman says
So what you are saying Evan is that successful dating men are superior to women because men can change and adapt and woman cannot?
In your story of James you told him the women will not change, your advice will not change, match.com will not change.. so it all boils down to this: Men must change and adapt to attract a woman because women are incapable of changing and adapting to men.
By your logic, that means men are superior to women because your logic is that change and adaptation are qualities of success. Sticking to one thing and not changing is an inferior quality. That is the message you are telling us using James as the example of an inferior man.
If I am wrong, please explain to me and James and every other guy out there why it’s the men who have to change and why it’s perfectly normal to expect women not to change and that is okay.
Thank you.
JennLee says
I think you have misunderstood what Evan says. I think he has been pretty consistent in saying that women are not going to change men, so if women want something to change in their dating lives, they must make changes themselves, and the same goes for you men. You aren’t going to change women, so if your love life is not what you want it to be, you must make the changes. The advice isn’t women vs men, it is the individual vs the larger group. The individual is not going to change the larger group, he/she can only make changes and adapt.
An example would be a woman dead set on finding a younger husband, but then gets mad when they are more than happy with a short term relationship, but not interested in long term. She can get angry and demand that men get in step with the times, but can’t do anything about it when they refuse. Evan’s advice is pretty consistent. If she refuses to change, she has nobody to blame but herself if she keeps chasing younger guys and only gets short term commitments.
The idea is that if a mountain is in your path, it does no good to wish it would change so that your journey won’t be interrupted. The mountain isn’t going to budge. You have a choice. Adapt and go around/over it, or stay where you are at and keep hollering at the mountain, like a fool.
John says
I read and hear all this criticism of “angry nice guys” and yet not a single person, including this author, ever gives any actual answers, solutions or advice. I feel some sympathy for James since I’ve had pretty rotten “luck” with dating recently, especially online. I’ve met a couple of nice girls, one that seemed like it could have gone somewhere (I moved out the town), but for the most part, my online inbox is full of cobwebs with an occasional response. Most female profiles look more like shopping lists than anything, simply naming every trait they want in a guy: tall, a certain color eyes, certain race, good job, etc.
I truly believe in the “halo” effect, where an attractive person pretty much can do no wrong no matter what they say or do. For men AND women, especially young, it all comes down to looks, period. People deny it but it’s true. There’s a good chance that ‘ol James is simply an unattractive guy, maybe overweight and frumpy, not blessed with a pretty boy face. There’s about 0% chance he’s a Channing Tatum look-alike. I have friends who are true GQ male model material and they put more effort in tying their shoes than getting dates.
What gets me is this hypocrisy in modern America, where women can have “standards” but God forbid a man does. It’s perfectly acceptable for women to outright say “I won’t date a guy who’s under 6’ tall” but if a guy says “I won’t date a fat woman” people go ballistic and say he’s shallow. If anything, having a standard about weight is less offensive since a person’s weight is 100% controllable and usually is related to personality traits and lifestyle. You can’t help how short or tall you are. Ironically enough, from my experience, the shorter the woman, the taller the guy has to be.
I think people should just be themselves. A guy like James could certainly learn to be more positive but aside from that, unless he’s some crazy loon who screams at women or always walks around with a scowl and nasty attitude, there’s not much to change to “attract women”, as if it’s some kind of skill, which it isn’t. If someone doesn’t find you attractive, there isn’t much you can do to change that. Just move on. Most people, men and women, make a determination about someone in seconds and unless the person turns out to be royalty in disguise or something, you can learn all kinds of “tricks” and methods, but in the end, it won’t matter. Much in life can be described through baseball and with relationships, you just have to keep swinging until you hit something. What sucks is that, like in baseball, the chances of success are low so it can be very discouraging.
Pretty much every great, happy couple I know met each other by chance, whether introduced or met by accident/fate whichever you believe, and didn’t have to really “do” anything special or specific. These dating coaches are foolish to think that meeting the “one” is like some kind of job where you have to do certain things. Society has turned dating into a sort of cruel game and that’s why it’s such a miserable place for most people. Men and women, especially young, have sky high standards that reflect maybe 1% or 5% of the population and they wonder why they can’t meet anyone decent.
m says
” A guy like James could certainly learn to be more positive but aside from that, unless he’s some crazy loon who screams at women or always walks around with a scowl and nasty attitude, there’s not much to change to “attract women”, as if it’s some kind of skill, which it isn’t.”
It absolutely is a skill. A skillset, really.
But the people who don’t see that are the ones who are going to continue to have the least amount of success, I’d wager.
Nick says
Although Evan is completely correct in regards to Jame’s poor attitude, I cant help but think it isn’t really his fault. Ultimately, you cant really change who you are deep inside. They way you think, the way you perceive the world is influenced by many factors including genetics and social conditioning. You can change bad habits, but personality is not easily manipulated. I can tell James is a stubborn and individualistic man, probably has a very troubled past that makes him unable to sync with others. He is jaded, unimpressed by the fact that most women he meets cannot relate to him. Men like these live hard lives, and unfortunately their anti social behaviour is taken at face value. I find it surprising that you do not mention anything about acceptance in a relationship, most people don’t because it is interpreted as settling. He just wants someone to accept him the way he is, because I am sure he has tried to change, but running away from who you are is emotonaly draining and dishonest.
vic says
Mr. Coach, I hate to break it you but i think that james fellow DOES have a point. Sure his approach may be wrong. Sure he could learn but the fact is that if you have a certain appearance than you would get a mainly negative experience…
I do not know how james looks but if for example, if you are a “short” guy than most women would say “no” regardless of your attitude. That is just a fact and that is also shallow!! So in your clients defence when you try and be nice to people and you get attitude because of the hand you are dealt with than it can certainty lead to anger issues. So in that respect, james is right!
Wouldn’t women get angry too if they were being passed off for let’s say being too “fat”? I am not saying its right but it does indeed sometimes look that the whole dating game is skewed in favor of certain individuals.
Derick says
I understand this James guy, the outlook on women, dating and how to approach this. It is very frustrating when it appears women don’t take an interest at all. I see that maybe thats my problem, I believe it truly is me because I did form an unfair prejudice against women because of how most of them do seem to be fickle and unfair as described and its not right of me to do that. Fact is I’ve been single for too long, I don’t understand women at all and what it is that attracts them. I want to get back out there and I want to work on my approach, mainly my lack of confidence. Is there a possibility that maybe you could coach me on how I can work on approaching women and dating? I really want to try again.
Evan Marc Katz says
I work with men if you can look past the copy for women: https://www.evanmarckatz.com/love-u-live-application-register
David says
Hey Evan I have always had trouble trying to get into a relationship I don’t know if its me but I do have bitterness inside like some of the guys here. I am willing to change anyway to get a girl. I have pursued whales and got rejected I have pursued bad women good women hell I don’t care what I pursue anymore I have gotten turned down by 300 women in a row. I have written down half of these girls numbers down in my phone and name. I am not overestimating how many either I am not fucking with you I am not looking for pity. I don’t want to feel more pain but I rather feel pain than nothing. I use to feel soulless because I wouldn’t feel anything so i have come a long ways from problems. I have a strong sense of pain inside. I have been turned down by 582 women on okcupid online dating app. Another 554 women on meet me dating app. I don’t know on tinder but been using that since it came out. I am done with online dating completely. I have female friends. I am nice to everyone I don’t discriminate I go for all races. Only people into me are gay guys I had 10 gay guys into because I haven’t been able to get anything I am debating on turning gay thats how much I am screwed up from rejection haha. I am not attracted to men either. I understand I can learn to love almost any girl but I am still alone. I am so confused on some advice. My friends are douchebags and get girls easy. Other friends use things like have cancer to get girls but he did have it but no longer. I am tempted to take this road now because of how I treat women so kindly for years. Family members have asked me if I was gay. I have used escorts to get sex out of my head. I care less about sex since seeing an escort I just want connection. This was a valuable experience. I don’t try every girl I see. If a girl smiles and looks friendly I will go talk to her and flirt with her. Only dates I gotten were girls that wanted me to be their sugar daddies. I am highly attracted to latinas but flirt with all women. I am a risk taker. If I see something works and try again to see what type of stuff works with women. To be honest I think in my future I am gonna have to go out of country to find a mate. I am still young in my 20’s. I decided now to stop pursuing for 6 months because I am confused if I have love addiction and planning on seeing a psychologist to see if something wrong with me. I ask women if I offend them when I get turned down. They all told me no. I think it’s all biology and women just maybe just as physically attracted as men in my opinion. Girls I am friends with tell me to try less and stop trying to hang with girls. I also just lost a bunch of friends so I am probably more lonely than ever in my past but I can make more friends. Some people tell me the women are just immature right now maybe. I know the girls I am friends with could date some rich dudes they aren’t and use them for money. I know they are good girls. They are straight fire!!!I just get frustrated at times. None of these numbers are bs again. I workout and completing my major. Maybe I need to try a dating coach. I like trying new things. I am open minded. If you could give me advice that would be much appreciated. I try to also see from a girls standpoint. I am a nice guy always been called this. I don’t mind being friends with girls because I just meet their friends :). I am thinking of being paramedic because I have saved a lot of people already and it makes me feel happy. I have saved 10 people now and switching my major now. I wonder if I am too kind because I care more about others than myself. Even if I see someone drunk on the floor I help them even if I don’t know them. I have done this for all my friends and girls. Even though it can be gross. All I know is I am doing something wrong where my confidence just gets kicked down to crap every 10th try. I have to completely restart my confidence. How can I avoid my confidence being taken down? I have been used by a lot of women also. I need to see this more clearly. I also have a question to you should I be open and tell women how I really feel I have friends that say don’t do that.. Women I am friends with that I told certain secrets to told me to never tell any women in my life them for my own happiness. I am usually really honest I just don’t tell someone something to keep my secret and no one will know. Its easy managing by writing it down and deleting to get out of my head. These secrets are very taboo to society. Like also friends say don’t share emotions because you look weak and not masculine and end up having the girl leaving you because I understand I am always being tested by women. I feel like everytime I try somthing I am playing some bull shit game of mental chess with her. I know a lot of tests and fail some.
J says
Woman are more complex. I was attracted to all of my dates. Woman’s standards are just too high. They said they had a great time but really meant something else. There is no equality here because they decide if there is a second date. So they are God like. Men don’t decide on the second date.
Future cat lady says
Did you convey to them that you were interested? Maybe they inferred you weren’t. Maybe one or more would have liked to have seen you again but felt you weren’t interested. This is assuming you weren’t trying to just have sex on the first date. I tell you, nothing is a bigger turn off than to feel you completely uninterest a man. I have never ever had a second date. But I’m not attractive and I’m overweight so I’m lucky to just get my foot in the door at all with a single date with a man.
Luis says
I can understand how James feels. I have been stood up on dates, ignored by women, and unappreciated for things that I do….. But I remember being in relationships with some really great girls and I wasn’t so great in those relationships…. I just recently became ready to settle down and now I need to approach dating with the same patience I was treated with in the past. Its a process. Each day is a learning experience. I know that there is alot of changes I need to make. I’ve been single for 3 years but have only wanted something serious for the past 6 months.
Pete says
The problem is in fact with the women of Seattle. Go to Texas, Arizona, or anywhere in the south and things are just easy and romance happens naturally without any effort. But in Seattle, nothing a man can do is good enough. The fact is, when you accept that enticing job offer from Amazon there is a fair chance you are committing to a life of celibacy. The locals can’t stand any criticism of their city, but word is getting out that Seattle actually is a pretty awful place.
I’ve lived in many cities, and it’s very hard to go against the flow of a culture. What you get is a function of where you are. If you want an angry entitled woman who can’t make up her mind, come to Seattle. Any time this is brought up they will try to turn the tables on you, and accuse you of being creepy / stalker / loser, too rich, too poor, too skinny, too fat, too muscular, etc., etc., etc. You just don’t get this strange attitude anywhere else. Their final line of defense is typically “sure, you can get a weak subservient women somewhere else, because you can’t handle a strong woman!”. Never mind that a typical Texas girl is a thousand times more assertive and direct than the passive-aggressive weak women of Seattle.
Sunny says
Your article suggests as if dating women is the sole mission of men. Sorry to tell you there are different men like James and Me too. There are men whose sole mission is not to date a woman, rather to find a person who is different. Who gives more and asks less. If two such people come in contact, there’s high possibility of compatibility. And sorry to say, it’s usually the women part, who don’t fit in this criteria, because all they want to do from the first day of a relationship is to change men. And that is not to make the men compatible with themselves, but only to prove themselves that they are important as they are able to make the changes in the men. How pathetic. I think almost the entire women gender need to mental reform in order to make people compatible. Seems like since you are a woman, despite being a doctor or whatever your professional name is, you are not doing anything different than what a normal woman would have done. To change the men… Time to change your profession .. All the best.
ken says
I’m curious, but it seems the main argument of men and women is not one of global generalization. Or even sexist ones but of this idea that local cultures of a city produce a majority demographic that’s say of one type of personality… perhaps James real solution is to move. It’s a action and he couldn’t be bitter about a new place.. you used Seattle as a example, not bye accident but I’m sure because everyone thinks there is a air of snobbery. It’s like silicone valley where you have to talk the talk and walk the walk. Remember the confusing lingo etc….. basically if you do not fit the dominant culture of a city. And do not like such culture, you might simply be forced to fish from a much smaller pool. Lastly. How much science on sociology is put into these arguments, I’ve yet to see a study posted. And I’m sure there is tons supporting both sides
John Burke says
As a man i found that being kind and intellegent is not a priority for most women.
Karmic Equation says
Most women on this board claim that they don’t care about looks, but rather character.
That’s a bunch of crock. Looks are part of the “chemistry” that women look for. That’s the truth.
But a man doesn’t need to be handsome or thin. He just have to have a nice features behaves confidently, and dress decently (as in no track suits on dates :)). But if he’s fat or cross-eyed, or is otherwise good looking but behaves in an insecure way, “chemistry” is killed.
I had one date with the latter. He was fit, good looking, but because he acted under-confidently, by the end of the date, he looked average instead of “cute” to me. I was willing to have a second date, but he accused me of being player because I didn’t answer his texts immediately. On the one hand, I was flattered that he thought me attractive enough to be a player. OTOH, I felt sorry for him because he spent the conversation talking about his money and how women took advantage of it. I was thinking, well maybe you shouldn’t be talking about how much money you make with a woman you barely know.
I had another guy, a friend of a friend, fb friend me. He was cute, so I accepted the request. We texted some and had a few telephone conversations, and he too talked a lot about money.
To me, these guys were trying to impress me with their money. I make plenty of money on my own, so a guy making money doesn’t impress me at all. All I could think of was that he was trying to buy my affection and/or he was trying to impress. Doesn’t work on women with money. It would work for women without, but they were setting themselves up to be used.
Save the money talk until she’s agreed to be your girlfriend. Until then, whether you’re a man or a woman, you shouldn’t talk about money on dates, imho.
Henriette says
I went on a first date with a guy who didn’t dress well, had several huge moles on his face, whose eyes were small and close-set. He also lacked even an iota of charisma. I felt ZERO chemistry for him.
However, he and I had had an amazing email exchange before meeting in person so I accepted another date with him. Because of the personality revealed in those emails, I continued to give him a chance. I ended up dating him for close to a year and falling in love with him. We broke up bc he moved across the country but, believe me, not all women need a man with confidence and decent features to ~ eventually ~ feel chemistry and fall in love.
Karmic Equation says
You’re a better woman than most, Henriette 🙂
As EMK often says, “The exception doesn’t disprove the rule.”
I always assume these guys complaining about women not valuing their intelligence or kindness are average to below average in looks or build…and the women they’re complaining about are ones well above their league, meaning if they’re 4s, they’re complaining about the 7 and aboves.
Usually, and I believe EMK cited the study (can’t remember for sure), relationships work best when the woman in the relationship is better looking than the guy. I’ve always interpreted this to mean at most 1-league of looks disparity. A 4 guy rarely gets a chance at a 10, unless it’s in a teen movie or he’s stinking rich. And I assume that most guys who write on this board to complain about choosy women are not stinking rich either.
Henriette says
I’m better in some ways, naughtier in others, @KE. 🙂
Honestly, I don’t consider myself virtuous for dating a guy I at first found ugly; I’m simply not at all a “visual” person. I can be nit-picky, difficult, neurotic in other ways but I’m one of those women for whom chemistry truly can grow from a 0 to an 8, if the personality & character are good.
In the case mentioned above, when we met I was intrigued by the disparity btwn the man’s thoughtful, articulate emails and his unappealing exterior. I agree that I might well be unusual but I wanted to give a truthful counterpoint to your assertion that it’s a “bunch of crock” that women care about personality and not looks. Some do, others don’t.
As far as the “spread” btwn the looks of those dating: I have no idea what score my looks would rate. I do know that when this guy and I were dating, people would make comments to us as a couple that I found hurtful and insulting on his behalf, even tho’ I suspect that they were meant to flatter me*… things like, “what’s a guy like THAT doing with YOU?” or ” Wow, when you said you were waiting for your boyfriend and this guy walked into the restaurant, I thought, well that certainly can’t be him.” Funny thing is, once I got to know him, I still didn’t think he was handsome, per se, but found him deeply attractive and wildly sexy. Far more so than most of the pretty boys I’d see around town. Anyway, I ended up caring for him more deeply than he cared for me. Go figure.
*Hint to everyone reading; a nice, kind woman will not find it flattering when you insinuate that she could “do better” than her boyfriend. She picked him for a reason.
Karmic Equation says
You’re the exception to the rule, as I said 🙂
I personally have never gone from 0 to 8 in chemistry. I’ve gone from neutral (would that be considered a 5, I wonder) to 10 probably. 0 to me would be revulsion not neutrality 🙂
Current bf is that way. I would say I thought he was “Ok” when I first noticed him but found him more and more attractive as he pursued me harder and harder. I guess “effort” jumpstarts my attraction to men as character and personality jumpstarts yours. But I am very visual, not surprising as I almost naturally “think like a guy” and we know how visual guys are. haha So looks do matter to me. He could pursue me like a bat out of hell, but if he doesn’t appeal to me visually, then I might become more creeped out than flattered and interested.
Sorry you lost him, Henriette. You’ll find another gem, I’m sure 🙂
kpak76 says
No evan you seem to be incapable of handling “facts” i can find evidence over the web stating to opposite. I’d link some of them but i cant from my phone. But google does wonders.
Except when men like me opt out in mass numbers (and we are,) we start to look like what Japan looks like today. You are working on a theory that there is an infinite number of partners out there and everyone of us wants different things. This is not true at all, there area finite number of men and most of us want similar things in a relationship.
Like i said the false figures thrown out are by you. I bet you even believe 1 in 4 college girls will be victims of sexual assault too right?
No your missing the key fact to my divorce statistics and that is the main reason why I’m going MGTOW. 80% of divorces are initiated by women and 90% ends up wuth the men getting hosed. Now tell me as a man what is so attractive about that?
People become smarter by arming themselves with truth, not lies that you seem to ne happy spreading around.
Feminism today is not about equality. Its about the domination of the matriarchy. It used to ne about equality at one point, but when they got it they kept pushing for more. And there can never be true equality amongst the sexes. Why? Because both sexes are BORN different. The old system that lasted for thousands of years understood this. Feminism does not. The old system understood men are men, and women were women.
Lastly, i do not hate women at all. Quite the contrary, i love the feminine figure. Women are extremely gorgeous, but i i can’t stand the attitude of the modern woman.
Evan Marc Katz says
Sorry, Kpak. You are discussing this with the wrong guy.
When you’re dealing with partnership on a mass scale, yes, there might as well be an infinite number of partners. To this day, most people who want to get married do get married.
You are just a victim of the confirmation bias, where you seek out information that validates your perspective – even if it’s false. So the divorce rate isn’t 60% but closer to 1/3 of that for educated adults. And 80% of women are married by the time they’re 40; they’re not piling up like cordwood on the side of the road because of guys like you opting out.
As far as my thoughts on the 1 in 4 statistic, I don’t know what to believe and recently wrestled with that here.
As far as your divorce statistics, you are again revealing your blind spot and bias. First of all, I heard women initiate 2/3 of divorces, not 4/5ths. But did you ever stop to consider why? Maybe because their husbands are emotionally unavailable, selfish, busy, don’t help out with housework or childrearing, verbally or physically abusive, unfaithful, or insensitive to be good partners. Men – like you – who think that women are only good for sex? Guess what? Women don’t want men like that. They want partners – and the best husbands are – you guessed it – sensitive to their wives emotional cues and help out with housework and childrearing.
Your last line is laughable: “I don’t hate women; I love the feminine figure.” If there is an epitaph for sad MGTOWs who die old alone, you’ve just written it, my friend.
I’m not sure if you’ll ever realize that I have a healthier grasp on reality than you do – because I’m the one in between feminists and MGOTWs, I’m the one who concedes the validity of both sides and calls out their blind spots, and I’m the one with the happy marriage. But if your stance is bringing you joy and you feel truly emotionally fulfilled by your hatred of “the modern women,” God bless you. Have a blast.
Chance says
I believe I saw a study somewhere where it said the divorce initiation rate was much closer to 50/50 in states where shared custody is presumed. I need to find it.
rawr says
this article is crap. no shit men won’t think well of women if his every single experience is the same. it’s like saying if you get burned by a hot stove after trying it 3 times, try it over and over until you don’t feel the burn anymore because you never know when you’ll find a stove that doesn’t burn when you touch it. yes of course you won’t feel the burn at some point:when the nerves in your hand are all gone. don’t you see? when men don’t value their previous experiences anymore it’s because they don’t care anymore about the consequences of their actions. they stop caring because there is no negative consequence anymore, aka they are numb to emotions so they won’t feel pain when he comes across yet another scummy woman. this is why so many women find a decent man and then complain that he’s not emotionally available. no fucking shit he’s not emotionally available because to attract you in the first place he had to lose his ability to feel things.
this isn’t rocket science just basic psychology. women are training men to be psychopathic, and that’s why you see such a disconnect. the sad thing is women will never put on their big girl panties and actually put in the effort to find quality men. oh i’m bigoted you say? just going by the facts, you’ll find me very much accommodating if i do meet a nice girl who doesn’t fit into the box. men’s anger towards women goes away in an instant the moment she provides some real life evidence that she’s different. truth is they just don’t value men enough to want to show them otherwise, they want the men to do literally everything. what happened to equality?
Evan Marc Katz says
Written like a guy who thinks that dating is like touching a hot stove. It’s not.
You are a guy who calls women “scummy”. You are a guy who justifies being emotionally unavailable. You are a guy who thinks that it’s okay to be angry at an entire gender.
You know what you sound like? The very women you hate.
Chew on that for awhile, learn to be a better man and choose better women, and then come back when you’re done rationalizing your failures. Women don’t owe you anything. If you want to do well with women, you have to be what women want – a nice guy with balls. You sound like an angry, castrated man who blames others for his lot in life.
Folwart says
Evan, you’re just as guilty of confirmation bias. That’s not a point worth arguing because the real facts aren’t found easily in a pile of statistics that spell it out every which way.
I’ve noticed you drilling into some of these posters bases on false assumptions. Perhaps, using a false assumption of my own, because you spend so much time around women you’re beginning to think and debate like them. I wouldn’t draw an ignorant assumption like that, ad hominem attacks weaken ones stance. Assuming from a few posted opinions in a few paragraphs of text that some of these posters must refer to women as “scummy”, or use other derogatory language in referring to women is absurd. They may use shortcuts to describe women in general, meaning not necessarily all, but most. (because most women leaving much to be desired would not be an understatement, and perhaps that’s the same for men) They aren’t stupid, you’re not stupid. If they meant all, then they wouldn’t be here.
What about women that call men pigs, creepy, stalkers, scum, etc? I saw,one poster that said he/she never heard that themselves or from anyone they know. So because in that tiny world it never occurred then it must not occur anywhere? That the most ludicrous, insane, self absorbed rationale possible.
Women, particularly younger women, make those statements often without thinking about what they actually mean and what the consequences could be. They define those words by what they feel they should mean. They are trying to describe that the man is not their type, but by using that language about these guys to or in front of other people unjustly describes the guy. Often she knows nothing about him other than she didn’t like his approach, appearance or whatever, which is fine, except none of those terms describe anything about the guy and are used without thinking to describe some feeling that apparently she never learned to describe using actual descriptive words that convey that meaning. It’s lazy and disgusting. Don’t defend it.
It’s in your best interest as a dating coach to play down the problem and make it seem simply solvable. The reality is there are a load of people with requirements for a partner that are incongruent with what they are offering, and they are both too stupid to give each other a chance and help each other grow. Hence why the title of this article is almost accurate. It should read, “Why Certain People Will Never Do Well With The Opposite Sex”, and should detail more about the shortcomings of both sexes. Instead you shot for the profemale feminist controversy and try to defend the garbage. One sided advice doesn’t help anybody. Pudding with symptoms may appear to help for a bit and may aid in solving the cause, but it will be a recurring is due until the cause is exposed and dealt with. The causes? Many. Don’t be self righteous pricks.
DeeGee says
rawr said: “this article is crap.”
Wow. Hurtbags much?
rawr said: “men won’t think well of women if his every single experience is the same.”
If every experience is the same, look for the common denominator. No, I meant you. Unless you are continually asking out the same one woman, in which case refer to the quote given near the end of this post.
Even though I often get a similar response as to why a woman is not interested in me romantically, I wouldn’t say the experience is the same, as each one was a different woman. The end result was the same (I’m still single), but not the experience (some were mutual agreement, some were very kind, some stayed friends, some showed they were a little crazy on the second date, etc.).
rawr said: “women are training men to be psychopathic”
So all of the women on the planet had a secret meeting to plan all of this, and we weren’t invited? Drats.
I don’t know any psychopathic men (abnormal or violent social behavior) who became that way from dating women.
If a few bad dates or a hot stove where you tried over and over caused this psychopathy, then how do you know your psychopathy wasn’t from something earlier in your life, like all of the times you tried to walk as an infant and fell, over and over.
Oh right, but you can’t blame someone else in that scenario.
I’ll quote Einstein: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Try changing what you are doing in your dating.
Folwart said: “What about women that call men pigs, creepy, stalkers, scum, etc?”
I’m sure there are people on the outer fringes of both sides who are bitter and resort to name calling of the opposite sex.
I personally have never heard a woman call a man that who didn’t deserve it. And I know a fair number of women.
The only women I have heard call men names like that are those women who I know were actually abused (physically or sexually) but they also tended to be quite private about that and the name calling until they became good friends and confided.
The majority of women I know are nice.
nick says
This is the problem right there to keep as many options possible. Options takes out the urge to demand and going after what you want.
I am not saying that I wouldn’t even talk to different girl but woman of my interest has my single minded attention and its how I get to notice things without even need to tell me. It’s like someone handing you glass of water without you saying so in a hot summer day. (You can’t do this over and over again though)
Tell me if you have paid attention to specific topic in some subject and you get to explain it to someone else. Would you need a book? Would you need to think what to tell next?
How many times you remembered something about a girl and gave the order according to it on a second date. Paying attention will make you move faster naturally as you notice and know something about girl, what is the next thing you want to know and how can you get to know it? Focus bring direction or else it will be going round and round and round in a circle.
Never be a friend of a girl you like, being friendly and being actual friend are different things. Being friend for the long time will kill it. Girl needs to feel that you are there because you are interested in her so she makes no mistake in understanding your motive and yet feels comfortable around you. This can save you a ton of time man. Be the guy who makes her feel threatened in Sexual way (mentally not physically). When is the last time you presented yourself so well that she just couldn’t understand what to say or how to react and simply froze? Too much comfort is NOT A GOOD SIGN as a Sexual partner in early stage.
Don’t wait for positive signals, just tell your motive right from the very beginning. Don’t wait if you know what you want with her. Do you wait for a friendship in bar or pub?
Let your heart guide you, make a story to tell how you guys fall in love. Don’t make it common like oh we see each other at this and we met, date and fell in love. It’s not a love story but merely a convenience story. They selected each other because there was no options available.
All of the dating techniques want you to believe that a diamond will come to you, if you be aloof or hush washy about your intention, wait for her to reciprocate the nice gestures, making sure she replies and on and on and on.
Shut up, you want a diamond go get her. Pursue ruthlessly but with self respect and respecting her choice (must if she SAYS no it is no, move on). She doesn’t tell you anything, you tell her “yeah, I like you or love you. Do you have problem with that?” Stare at her body, Stare right into her eyes, touch her appropriately as many times as you want, tell her if she got sexy ass or whatever, tell her she drives you nuts, call her crazy or bitch or whatever wink, smile and be fun around her and WITH OTHERS. Don’t be afraid to offend her. Don’t be afraid to fight with her.
Man in reality you don’t even have to have sleep with her or go on dozen dates to make her fall for you. Just don’t follow the bs dating techniques. Remember if you can charm up an old lady or other male and make them feel good about themselves naturally, you don’t need any techniques.
Mark says
Well with much more women today that are Career minded, very high maintenance, independent, very selfish and spoiled certainly has a lot to do with it as to why many of us Good men Can’t meet a Good woman to settle down with, and we have No reason to blame ourselves either since many of us are Not single by choice.
Al says
“Career minded, very high maintenance, independent” Hmm, that sounds like most MEN so why would you qualify those things as being selfish and spoiled? Because those Independent Women aren’t flocking to your door? Yes, women are becoming more self sufficient and that’s a GOOD thing. Unfortunately, for some men it’s a problem. They can’t just coast on having a job anymore and are expected to actually have something of substance to offer another person. There are plenty of good women out there looking for love so Mark, you ARE single by choice. You are choosing to discount a large portion of the available female population, most likely because you feel entitled to someone more physically attractive than you are. That, or you are turning women off with your attitude. Either way, those are choices you are making.
Mark says
Well you have to understand that most women today are totally different than the women of years ago that really had to struggle to make ends meat along with their men when most men and women in those days hardly had any money at all, and most men and women accepted one another for who they were since money was never an issue that many women want today. And now you have so many women today that are very career minded since many women today can’t accept a man for who he is. And for your information i am NOT single by choice. Then again, i usually meet all the stuck up loser women anyway.
doc80 says
Hey all, first a little background on me – I’m 34, finishing my doctorate, former military and federal law enforcement and a professional athlete. My issues aren’t with sense of accomplishment, self-confidence or knowing myself mos def. Also, I found the article funny because I lived in the Seattle area for a few years. I even have an ex-wife there(that lasted less than a year).
I can identify on a few levels of what the subject of the article told the counselor: it certainly DOES seem like most women are searching for that instantaneous PING! that signals ‘this is The One’. Also, yeah, a lot of peoples’ lives are boring, especially the majority of the younger women I date. Nobody lives adventurously anymore, fulfilling their goals and living their dreams. I have. I’ve been told numerous times a month into relationships ‘I’m jealous of you and all you’ve done’.
So, I’ve become the ‘serial leaver’. I have a tendency to see flaws and get fed up. The biggest issue is that these ‘girls’…because they sure as hell aren’t women, have ZERO self-confidence, will take attention from wherever they can get it, and they’re duller than dirt. I’ve gotten to the point where I think about it away from them (because with them everything seems great) and just decide it isn’t worth it, send them an ‘exit text’, then feel like garbage because I’ve thrown away some people who were really good for me.
But my biggest problem: of the many women I’ve been with, including the ex wife, I’ve never REALLY loved a single one. I thought I did, but no. And I know a lot of people I associate with daily who feel the same… There are many people who won’t ‘settle to settle’. And in the end, if it’s between being with someone to avoid being lonely or going it by myself…I pick by myself. I just think the true quality of people is either declining or maybe it was never there in the first place.
JennLee says
Men and women like you remind me of that scene in Good Will Hunting. Robin Williams has to explain to Matt Damon that no woman is perfect, and then also tells him that he isn’t perfect either, and that some woman will have to put up with his flaws and idiosyncrasies. I see so many men and women these days who judge everyone so harshly. They don’t understand that while they likely see themselves as without flaws, or at least without major flaws, they actually have a very serious one, which is that these kinds of people tend to be horrible to be around because of how judgmental they are, and the dim view they have of most people.
Al says
Doc80: You run through a litany of complaints about the women you’ve been seeing, seeming to put your single status on THEM not being “perfect” enough for you. They aren’t confident enough, adventurous enough, exciting enough, etc…
Then you say, ” Of the many women I’ve been with, including the ex wife, I’ve never REALLY loved a single one.
It really should have occurred to you by now that the problem isn’t every woman in the world, but you. You are the common denominator here. Frankly, you sound pretty insufferable. Perhaps you are better on your own until you can work out why you can’t allow yourself to love anyone. That’s a pretty sad and lonely state. I’d hate to be in your shoes man.
me init says
You are talking rubbish. James is not wrong. Women are the problem, or rather society is. Everyone is becoming more self centred and selfish. It is hard to find true love when society is screwed up. The rubbish written on this site is part of the problem. Stop labeling, stop judging, stop trying to influence and control. This is a problem.
David says
People are naturally selfish. Just the way it is same with men. I just feel like women can have the pick of any man and I can’t even a fat chick if I wanted to.
RealityCheck says
Well i certainly do have to say that the women of years ago were certainly a lot different than the ones that are out there these days.
Al says
Hallelujah! Yep. We are educated, independent, confident professionals. That should not intimidate a “real” man. If you are also educated, confident and independent you will not be intimidated or repulsed by women who can stand up with you. It’s only the insecure and entitled who are whining about not being able to achieve their idealized version of the woman they feel they deserve. As women are becoming more economically and academically equal they are beginning to expect the same things in a lover as men always have. Men want a woman they find attractive. We want that too. Men want women who have nice personalities and aren’t bitter and angry. We want that too. Men want someone to put them first and support them. Ditto. The truth is that we basically want the same things. You get back what you give. If you want a sexy, sane, nice, fun lady then BE sexy, sane, nice and fun!
TellingTheAbsoluteTruth says
The trouble is that many of you women that are educated, independent, confident professionals, need to grow up since many of You are Not all that which You think You’re. Your mind is Not developed yet since many of You now think that your God’s gift to men because of the high Position that you have at your job. Just remember, the job that many of you have now may Not last forever which many of you may be on the unemployment line again like so many others since the job market is Not all that great like you think it is. As for me, even if i met a poor woman which i will be very happy to be with instead of the ones that are out there these days.
Al says
Maybe you’ll consider me elitist but, unless English is his not his first language, I do have the requirement than any man I date have at least a fifth grade grasp of grammar and punctuation. Sexy guys from across the pond get a pass on that but, if you grew up in the US, you’d better work at becoming functionally literate.
Seriously says
It is just too bad that we don’t have a real time machine to send many of you women back in time to see what it was really like for the real women that had to struggle along with their men to make ends meat. The ones out there now have to be very careful since we don’t want your false eyelashes to fall off, and be very careful that you don’t crack your nails which are fake anyway.
Al says
Seriously, I think you’ve missed the point here entirely. It is MEN Who expect women to wear false eyelashes and pretty, lacquered nails. I don’t give a crap about that kind of stuff. I have never had a pair of false eyelashes in my life. I very rarely even wear mascara. I don’t wear heels because they are bad for my feet and back. These are all just more examples of how men expect women to contort into parodies of themselves to suit some absurdly unrealistic feminine ideal. The truth is that I probably resemble our ancestors far more than most women. I am strong, unadorned and able to work both physically and mentally. What I won’t tolerate are misogynistic constraints on women that men like you want to return to because modern women no longer have any interest in catering to your whims. Have something worthwhile to offer a mate or go home. We are no longer servants to the male gender. Any man with a sense of common decency doesn’t need to be told any of this though, so I fully anticipate my words will fall on deaf ears.
Evan Marc Katz says
“It is MEN Who expect women to wear false eyelashes and pretty, lacquered nails.” That’s not really, true, Al. Unless you think that MEN are the ones running women’s magazines. My wife cares FAR more about her looks than I do. She dresses for her, her friends, and me, in that order. So you may speak for yourself, as always, but don’t act like the women’s beauty industry is a misogynistic plot. Capitalistic, maybe, but you should probably withhold your blame.
Al says
Aside from all that Seriously, who are you to decide what a “real” woman is anyway? I have all the requisite parts, therefore I am as “real” a female as it is possible to be. I completely refute your ridiculous belief that you have some right to tell an entire gender who they “should” be in order to please poor little you.
Al says
Well Evan, to be fair, I am looking at the world through my own lens. I Imagine there are some women who would continue to put on makeup every day, get manicures and wear heels if men didn’t value these things so highly but I don’t personally know any. In fact, most women seem to cut way back on all of that as soon as they find a mate and get married, something I’ve heard many, many men complain about. That indicates to me that they value a woman putting in the effort to be “pretty” for them. This kind of experience is what led me to make the above comment.
Al says
Oh, and it may not be men directly running those women’s magazines, but if you crack one open you’ll find it mostly deals with how to attract, please or keep a man. You don’t see a lot of articles in there about how to look great for your girlfriends, so yeah, it’s still pretty much about being appealing to men in the end.
Sabrina says
By the number of replies, I am guessing that this is an older blog entry. I also just skimmed the merits of Seattle (and whether or not this was really Seattle), and I agree that the problem is James – not the city. I lived in Seattle for several years and had a lot of dating success there. Plus, he should quit bitching about the quality of prospects and look at the quantity. It is a CITY after all. I live in a much smaller city now and the selection is far more limited.
Regardless, I dated James’ type along the way. High maintenance as hell. The problem is definitely HIM.
Lisa Douglas says
Evan,
love and appreciate your direct honest approach. You sing the truth. Have been following your blog for almost 3 years and have learned so much and made such significant changes in my dating habits and as a result are more confident, happy and successful. I make wiser choices now as a result and really think things through. I no longer feel like a victim or that something is wrong with me. I feel confident and secure whether I am in a relationship or single. That has never happened before. Thanks for telling it like it is. Keep singing.
herp says
If he’s so pissed off at women and so thoroughly disappointed in them, why does he waste his time pursuing them? He could do better things in life by just refocusing on his careers or his passions, instead of just beating his head against the brick wall that is dating. Perhaps he just likes being miserable.
bob says
I treat my fiancée really well, i just about pay for everything, do pretty much everything she wants to do and i feel as though im getting taken advantage of. I’m always getting nagged at, she is never in the mood for sex. So the treat women nicely bit is bull shit.
Kristyn - with a Y says
Get Out.
If you don’t like the way you are being treated, leave the relationship.
gerald says
I think what it comes down to is bitterness or that’s not even fair, frustration, from failure to get life needs met. I bet this guy if the women had high interest level and were flexible givers, he’d be happy. Yeah it sounds like I’m quoting someone like a cult member or some system. I am yeah but I happen to believe it is a good way to describe things. Why improve on the truth. So the question is why don’t .. well let me come at it from a different approach. I’m not an expert on the subject. I don’t understand women completely, or modern ones, or society. But I’m a decent critical thinker. Now
I understand (and this is the crux of the matter I think) that raising a guy’s interest level is relatively easy- love at first sight. Raising a woman’s interest level into the 80s or 90s is very difficult actually. A 25 year old might not be interested in dating but rather pursue her career. This is not (just) because of her life goals, but because her interest level has not been that high in a man before- above lets say 70. Men struggle raising interest level in women, or modern women. But that’s placing burden on men, and implying its their job to raise interest level in women. Maybe they’re supposed to build careers, develop themselves and then find a woman with an above 51 percent interest level, and then raise it in her only, but drop her if her interest level is or ever goes below 49. But the fact of the matter is maybe- as Warrel Farrel puts it, women are looking at the top 1 percent of men and claiming there’s a shortage of good men- her standards are so high. That sounds judgy, but where is the high interest level in women? I’ve had the good fortune when I was younger to get the interest level in certain women really high. I was kind of a kid then, naive about sex, but passionate. I know the feeling, when a woman has an interest level.Botttom line factor says this guy in Seattle cannot raise interest level in the women or he probably wouldn’t be bitter. But again that’s only one way of saying it- implying its high job to raise her level. You could also maybe better say he can’t develop himself in an authentic way in which he manages to meet women who develop a high interest level in him. The bottom line factor is the same, women’s interest level in him is not high on a regular basis- and it only takes one, so this is the bottom line frustration factor which causes him to blame seattle women. This makes sense but there’s only one question left for me. Why? Why don’t women have high interest levels in more seemingly together men? Was it always thus, for my forefathers? Or is this noveau? What’s the trick? Is there a trick? Being like carey grant, being edge and going your own way violating social norms but doing so in the right way? Yeah why? Is it a cruel joke of a god or supreme being that says men will have high interest levels easily and women will have them as rarely as men have them regularily. WTF. But I imagine, when you do get a woman with a constant high interest level, and you get her locked into a relationship, your life may be humming. And maybe a lot of the difficulty has to do with changing your thinking, getting your karma like a train or ship or truck trailer turned around 180, or 120, and changing your habits. Maybe this is it, but the bottom line is I think her interest levels are low, and he reacts- and we all know the best men don’t react, right? Or do they, passionately?! Its all her interest level. And if her interest level is low, she has all the power (not that she wants it, unless she is an extractor, of bad character). and if she doesn’t love you anymore and you either and you’re going to break up, she won’t let you leave her, she’ll say come back and then she’ll leave you a month later so she doesn’t bear the psychic loss. I read that in a Doc Love article. See how dating is crazy, and you get head games played? And see also how these things nobody taught in school about psychology are real? Yeah but a high interest level women never plays games. She may be structured- that’s different, but no games, she’s straightforward. That’s Doc Loves idea. Is it true? And if she’s a flexible giver and you can keep her interest level high, and you like her, and she has integrity, you may be set for life! So don’t kill interest level, don’t kill confidence or control or challenge.
DeeGee says
gerald, I found your reply interesting.
gerald said: “Why don’t women have high interest levels in more seemingly together men?” -and- “Is it a cruel joke … that says men will have high interest levels easily and women will have them as rarely”
I have often wondered this, and would love to hear some feedback from other people including Evan.
It’s almost as if when they see a guy who is mostly together (9 out of 10 positive points) they will forcibly discount him for that 1 missing point.
I have always found it difficult to try to pinpoint what exactly women are interested in when it comes to men, half the time it seems so random. Couples that I see together I often don’t see what it was that connected them. Maybe I have some sort of Alexithymia. 🙂
gerald said: “I read that in a Doc Love article.”
I’ve read some of his stuff. He is very alpha male, don’t show any weakness, always be in the zone to keep her interest up, kind of a thing. Some of what he says seems to look ok on the surface, but somehow feels off to me.
Steve says
Most of the women of the 50’s and 60’s were certainly much more better, and once the 70’s came around they really have changed for the worst. The women that were married back then did make a much better wife than now that is for sure. Today most of them really stink and their a bunch of losers just by the way they act towards us men with their very bad comments they make about us. Look at yourselves in the mirror which many of you are the problem, not us.
Evan Marc Katz says
Just pointing out that Steve, Seriously and Ron are all the same guy under different names. Stick with one identity, my friend. You may not sound like a reasonable debate partner, but at least we know who we’re debating.
Jonathan says
I think we’re all different and unique like a beautiful painting, but since we’re people we end up smudging ink and cause each other to develop things like disorders and mistrust.
I’ve spent the past year getting over my cheating ex who gossiped and got me fired. It took awhile but I realized that I made just as many mistakes s her, so I’m just trying to better myself in hopes some girl with see what’s inside.
Karmic Equation says
I’m sorry it took over a year to get over a cheater. Shouldn’t take that long, though.
Focus on the cheating part after the breakup instead of the good parts. Use the anger to propel you away from her.
Instead of looking back with regrets, on her behavior, on your behavior, keep saying to yourself, “I dodged a bullet with her. Thank god for small favors.”
Reflect on your relationship for lessons learned, not for nostalgia for what could have been “if only…”
David says
It is quite hard to not sympathy for James. He is correct in many ways that he should not have to change himself. People should not need to compromise themselves just find love. If he is a decent guy who are you to tell him hebisnthe common denominator? Society plays a huge factor and he is right in many ways that people have become harder to date.
Love is two people who compliment each others personality traits. The only thing James can do is to keep plugging away. He might be able to tweak his approach without changing who he is also, but even that is more than I would do. I tend to feel like him but I will never give up or give in to defeat.
max says
I see where hes coming from, i hate to say it but other then for feminism, animal or human rights, and environmental causes, woman are the last ones to value personal principles. Someone should not need to change in order to find a relationship. if they do then that isn’t a relationship with them, its a relationship with what you made (in this case) james to be. I feel sorry for anyone you have “helped”…
DeeGee says
max said: “Someone should not need to change in order to find a relationship.”
So you have no bad habits or rough edges that could use some finessing?
How is your luck with women?
I am constantly striving to become a better person, in all ways in my life, not just in relationships with women. I take what I have learned from previous failed relationships and apply that to try to better myself as a person and a better catch for a woman.
But apparently you think doing that is a waste of time?
j says
It seems like alot of effort to literally gain nothing. I read this thinking ,James you need to make it all about them, because when dealing with narcissist it is all about them. Once you tap into their ignorance then you can have anything you want, and you don’t even have to be sincere. Women love liars. I gave you the best advice of all flirt and lie and they will drop their panties for you. I know that Simone will read this and get pissy , but I to felt like James until one day I stop caring for these shallow women who always seem to hurt me , but now I play their game and it pisses them off because they can’t win. Chow!
Truthteller says
Ahhh…so basically this white man is telling guys to change themselves to be more desirable to superficial (mostly white) women? Genius. The truth is, women online are nuttier than a squirrel’s crap after three Payday bars. You get volume of attention, which in turn, makes them excessively picky and even more superficial. Plus, these are the type that never EVER look in the mirror because they don’t have to. Evan, I give you props for making money off of your racket…another white success story.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank you for pointing out that my success is largely based on my color – and that the majority of my paid clients reflect my demographic.
Now be sure and tell Paul C. Brunson that he’s a great black success story. I’m sure he’ll appreciate it.
john doe says
James and I are in the exact same position except women won’t even meet me in person. They really are that shallow and in he comfort in their own phones or tablets they lack class, manners and general respect for any other human beings. I’m glad he didn’t work with you, there is NO reason why anyone should change themselves (who are honestly good people) for gain with the opposite sex. Id rather be myself, unhappy and lonely than not myself with someone and miserable knowing that the moment im myself they’re gone. Long story short women in this day of age are really, really shitty people.
Evan Marc Katz says
My friend, if they don’t want to meet you, I’m sorry to say that it says more about you than it does about the entire gender. 50 million American guys are married. Evidently, some of them are willing to talk with men. Instead of changing in any way, you keep doing what you’re doing and remain unhappy and lonely. You win?
John doe says
Lol this guy just doesn’t get it because you’ve never lived it. Try getting harassing and cruel comments from women on a nearly daily basis just because of how you look. 50 million men huh? That’s cool. How many of them are happy? How many of them have wives that are cheating on them. There is no doubt in my mind that women are losing out by being so shallow with me, if they aren’t willing to change neither am I. You need to get your balls back and stop telling men to change to accordance to women’s needs…especially when they do nothing but objectify men.
cyp says
You play a very common game today: if a woman misbehaves it is not the woman’s fault, the man must change. The truth today is that most women have been indoctrinated by the feminist agenda are just self-entitled bitches. And this has nothing to do with how they approach them. That is because they are like spoiled children that only want to have it their own way and be consoled when the shit hits the fan because of their choices. They want the power to make choices but not the responsability that comes with it. I have a feeling that by your coaching he would get the women he wants but feel miserable in a relationship with either one. In my opinion his problem is that he wants the whole package, an ideal woman. He should just stick with a few characteristics that make life with her livable and start from there. I am not say to date a Sasquatch, but if women that are beautiful usually also have an attitude problem. If you can control that by been authoritarian without looking as one ok, if not lower the standards. Also bars and parties are the worse place to find a normal woman
the-sphynx says
You play a very common game too, cyp. It’s called “Let’s all give our knee-jerk reactions based on the title and maybe the first couple paragraphs, without bothering to read till the end.”
The article discussed a particular man who was having trouble in his love life that was likely traceable to painting huge numbers of the opposite sex with negative generalizations, and blaming them all for his own problems and baggage. The author then went on to tell women that they should learn from this example and not do the same to men and then blame all men for their own problems and baggage.
And how do you and the other MGTOWs respond? By doing exactly what Evan here warned all men AND women NOT to do: painting huge numbers of the opposite sex with negative generalizations and blaming them for problems. The irony is palpable.
cyp says
I am not a MGTOW. I am just stating some facts. And unlike MGTOW I believe that if you tell your partner what is bothering you is better for both. Either you end it quick either both take steps toward compromising and finding a stable solution. Also I am not generalizing . feminists do not include all women. not all women hate men. can you explain why some women “blame all men for their baggage”? maybe because feminists keep repeating that is men’s fault?! oh and about negative generalizations of feminists read about the white feather shaming.
the-sphynx says
OK, so you’re not a MGTOW. But you’re still generalizing. Not all feminists are alike, and not all feminists hate men. In fact, there’s been a lot of fractiousness between the various groups, some of whom would rather reread Shulamith Firestone and dispense with men almost totally, and some of whom simply want to be paid similarly for the same work in the same conditions.
The phenomenon of wanting to blame all members of the opposite sex is not gender specific, nor is it reasonably attributable to either feminism or the MGTOW movement. I think it is human nature to want to attribute your problems to something outside of yourself, to eliminate the need for self-examination or self-blaming. It’s easier and more comfortable to think everyone else needs to change. But ultimately the only person you can ever change is yourself.
(Oh, and what the WWI “white feather” shaming of supposedly cowardly men a hundred years ago has to do with the state of modern dating is a complete mystery to me.)
cyp says
I could not reply directly to your comment so I will reply here.
1. there is no pay gap. Women in average are actually paid more for doing the exact same job. The pay gap comes from averaging every working man and averaging every working woman. And since a janitor job or a MCDonald job does not pay the same as a programmer or a doctor there will be differences. The difference is because women tend to avoid hard and stressful jobs which of course pay beter.
2. “Oh, and what the WWI “white feather” shaming of supposedly cowardly men a hundred years ago has to do with the state of modern dating is a complete mystery to me” it has to do with feminism being based on lies and man hating. You cannot call yourself a feminist and say you do not hate men. And this is not a generalisation is the truth: every feminist hates men! The right the vote for instance was given to men about the same time as women got it and men were force to go to war for it and in some countries they still are forced to enlist. Using lies to bash and guilt-trip one entire gender in my opinion cannot be seen as anything else than hate.
3. “I think it is human nature to want to attribute your problems to something outside of yourself, to eliminate the need for self-examination or self-blaming” yes, and then we grow up. Assuming responsabillity for your own actions is part of being mature, is part of actually being an adult. Blaming other people is part f being a child. And if you behave as a child expect to be treated a one.
4. “But ultimately the only person you can ever change is yourself.” not true. you can change other people, but they must be willing to change too because everyone has free will.
Just another guy says
To the writer of this opinion piece.
First off, “Why” does not exist. The question you should be asking… “What makes some men un-attractive to women?” “Why” is a lazy question. It lacks focus or direction and curve tails into an opinion piece easily.
Second off, I believe you grossly under-estimate the social-dynamic change that has shaken this country in the past 30 years. Literally in James’s life time (which happens to be the same age as myself) you have the fall of the Berlin wall, Clinton Scandal, Rise of the Internet, Mass Communication, hyper-feminism, 9/11, two wars, the great recession, first black president, the race-riots all over again, and homosexual relations becoming normalized. What I am alluding to as you probably have figured out, James/Men of our generation have all been raised with different string of values than what is now established. Since far and wide the rise of hyper-feminism women now actively seek out men who are willing to change/be molded by their standards rather than the woman joining the man and being molded by him. James’s problem is not his value system or his style of dating. James’s problem is with the society of women and expectation that society has generated for both James and the women. It is two fold.
You are correct, the common denominator is the problem. The common denominator is society… not James. James must learn to reject society and accept he must open his dating pool beyond just Seattle. Reject the women who hyper-feminism, ultra materialistic, and kardashian shallowness has bred and be the change he wishes to see in the world. James will find a fantastic woman because he is a fantastic man/has a good head on his shoulders. You failed to look deeply at the situation and see the truth. Rather than James “changing” to suite his surroundings, he must walk a lonely-yet-righteous path to not lower his standards and find his true love. He just needs to re-locate if finding love is his true calling.
Am says
Guys, Evan is just trying to make an honest buck (ok, 1000…) from your wallet. If you buy into what he says, dish it out. If not, suck it up, keep your dick in your pants and don’t complain.
marko says
Some of these women on here crack me up when they say certain men group women together and don’t treat them as an individuals – Huh?? – Since the dawn of social media, women are the ones who have grouped themselves together, and NEVER look at men as individuals anymore. And besides, as far as “no woman in the world wanting to date a guy like James” because he groups all women together, how the hell do they know he feels that way when he’s out on a date with them? Does he tell them that right there on the spot when they’re eating their salad?? I truly believe the very few real men left on this planet who still act like adults are screwed, because ladies, and here’s where the truth hurts, you cannot do social media AND love one man individually for the rest of your life. It is literally impossible to do both, it’s right there in the title: SOCIAL !! Meaning many and everyone, if you are more concerned about your two or three hundred Twitter followers then you are spending quality time with your man; who is supposed to be your one true love that you’re looking for; I mean c’mon, you tell me why that relationship falls apart, do the math in your head. Unfortunately James is right, I haven’t met a woman in years that doesn’t fall into this trap, he really is right when he says most women now act like children. I feel like I have a lot to offer women, and women tell me all the time they think I’m a good looking guy. Hate to say it but I’ve pretty much given up. Peace
marko says
Women these days are shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to finding a quality man for a relationship. A man who truly loves a woman nowadays is labeled as a stalker and a creep. Case in point, a woman I worked with for 2 years had a thing for me for a long time, and it took me awhile to really get into her, but literally the second I started to develop feelings for her, as soon as I started to insinuate The L Word could be involved, our relationship completely fell apart, and the rest of her girl crüe and my coworkers made me out to be some kind of psycho; it really was just about the worst experience of my life. I am a reasonably educated man who is coming from the right place in my heart, and have nothing but good intentions. Women don’t even realize it, but with today’s social media, they are subconsciously shooting down the best chance they have at true love, it is no longer fashionable for a woman to even admit that she loves a man, it is probably viewed as a sign of weakness, in today’s age of feminism. There are still good men out there ladies, the problem is, when you come across one, you’re being told by your 2 or 300 Twitter followers that he’s no good, yeah – good luck with that
marko says
Wanna know what an adult grown up woman does when she finds a man to love? She ignores all the negative comments coming from her friends coworkers and social media, who all seem skeptical that she’s found the perfect man, and she follows her heart, yeah that’s right I said it, her HEART !! Remember the song by Roxette, Listen to your heart? Yeah, just like that
marko says
Women run away from love faster than the speed of light, baby
Manny says
Thank you dating coach. I feel just like James but unlike James I will change and improve.
Nate says
As far as men being the problem, or women being the problem it is really a moot point, both are true, my wife is spoiled and has been most of her life, i am socially innept in my openion due to becoming so completely jaded as a child moving across country core times than i can count, i went to 4 diferent schools just in highschool, and lost 2 friends in the platoon i was attatched to in Afghanistan. My wife and I are currently fighting but I am trying to fix the problem on my end at least. The problem in my case is being so emotionally jaded i couldnt even get excited about my daughters (former step daughter) adoption, we have full custody and she will not have to feel alienated in her own family. I still couldnt get excited, I have been her father since she was 3 monts old and she is over 2.5 yrs old now. The same goes for this James guy, he has simply become jaded. he may not have had the same life problems i do but i can tell you that working in IT or tech support will make you irritable and very jaded towards people in general. One can only deal with so many idiots. “there is no picture,” “what kind of cables are you using to connect to your TV?” “it has to be plugged into the tv?” been there done that. What you have to remember is that hey I am a person, and while you may be of the opposit gender, you are a person too, and treat eachother as such. Yes there are the hormonal differances, my wife wants to kill me about a week of every month, and i do my best to take it in stride, but there will always be disagreements and fights and it is how you deal with those things that makes the differance. However if you never fight i would be worried, I never really fought with my first wife, and now she is my X-wife, due to a complete and total lack of communication for the sake of avoiding conflict. Point being a person is a person, take them for who they are. Trying to press your own preconcieved notions is just stupid, no 2 people are alike, and who knows maybe they are just shy or have some baggage and are a bit reserved or perhaps have sub- concious defense problems that make them seem generally unpleasent to be around until they actually get to know you and are able to relax……. aaaannd I appearently talk/type way too much, lol
Mi says
I was hoping there would be a little more meat to this story so I could share it with one of my male friends. He’s in his early 40’s and a really nice guy with a steady decent-paying job. He has his own home and is current on his car note. Sounds good so far right? He has ‘poor me’ pity syndrome and it gets tired of listening to. He’s obese and quirky. He wants someone half his age, who’s got a thin model-like body, who exercises daily, makes her own money but also keeps up the indoor housework (because a man’s only job is to grill and mow lawn), and raise the kids one day. I’ve said straight to his face he’s being hypocritical. Why would a fit, independent, twenty-something or early-thity-something woman want and old fat lazy man? What can he provide her that she doesn’t already have? Companionship? I doubt it. A mail order bride is the closest he’s going to get to meeting his dream girl. I just wish he could see that he’s being hypocritical, because he is a kind person.
jake says
I was going to comment on the fact that Seattle really is a social shithole full of bitchy entitled women who will never be happy, but then I saw all the other comments that already say that.
Ron says
How can men do well with the type of women that out there these days? And since they are making very bad comments about us men which many of them are the real losers.
Ron says
Sounds like to me you also don’t want to admit that women also have to change having grown so picky, that they think there is a PERFECT man out there, and if I can just shoo away enough of these losers, I’ll find him; home in the country, Mercedes, he has no sex drive, you know, the perfect man!
kitkatkiller says
This article is funny, even young men dont want to marry because women are easy as cake lol. I get hit on by married women and i dont fall for that. Instead tell them what they want to hear and move on. This bitches dont even know how to give it up lol. Why dont you get married and then come back on this blog 5 years from now lol.
jp says
You have to want to change. No one can force you to change. I have my thoughts of men being shallow but women can be that way as well. Here is one thought I believe is true about the difference between men and women. Most women will look for advice in relationships. Meaning most likely they will try to change for a relationship where as men don’t look for advice and assume they are right and won’t change. This is one reason why Evan has so many female clients and very few men. Unfortunately, men, in general, don’t believe they have to change. Each person believes that they should have someone they find attractive. Men and women. I am an attractive women on a dating site in good shape. I ask for the same in a man plus non smoker, non hunter. A cerebral person. So, many men don’t read the profile at all and contact me because they obviously think I am pretty. They are heavy, smoke and hunt. Are they being fair. Should I feel bad when I ignore, reject them. No I don’t. I am looking for someone I find attractive. Is it shallow, I am not. The attractiveness I want is what I feel is attractive. My friends and family could tell me that person is ugly and I wouldn’t care, it is my feelings that matter. I will be having sex with that person. Alot of sex with that person and I can’t see it with someone I find unattractive and over weight. So be honest with yourself, what do you really want. If you aren’t getting it maybe you should change your standards, if you can. Have a great day all.
bongstar420 says
If she only considers men at least “x” tall, I only consider women at least “x” sized breasts.
Its a double standard that makes them look mentally deficient. They would do better being honest though they would then not get much attention.
Nick says
No you are not being shallow and you have a right to choose whom to reply. Problem starts when women came on dating site with an AGENDA and assume they are not asking for much..
Now let me show you my thinking, when you go to work can you choose your co workers? When you go to bars can you choose your fellow patrons? When you go in a bus can you choose your fellow passengers? I mean we all think we have a choice…yeah right!
We don’t have a choice but we trick ourselves with adjusting to our surroundings to find the best WITHIN that surroundings not necessarily we do really want it.
Let’s say you really wanted to be doctor but didn’t get enough grades and became something else (adjusting to your available surrounding or availability of the next best thing and yet you think you “CHOSE”)
In reality you didn’t even CHOSE your own name, did you? You will get better results if you start doing the same with available males (adjusting). I want to marry Megan Fox type from my heart so I reject everyone else? Am I asking too much? Don’t I know what do I want?
Remember diamonds and gold needs to be purified, no one EVER in the history of human kind found them in a way they wanted. Same with people so TAKE YOUR CJANCE BABY!
SRUB says
WOMEN WANT ALPHA MALE
(or the best they can get)
bongstar420 says
Which is a huge double standard and a totally dishonest and unrealistic assessment of who she should be with. If thats what women want, they need to accept being 1 out of 10 wives if they are highly desirable. Its impossible for more than 3% of men to be alpha despite the inaccurate nature of the term (its highly subjective what an alpha actually is).
Clair says
I agree with Evan…”James” has to work on himself. All of those ‘traits’? he accuses woman of are really the things he despises…DESPISES…about his own character/personality. WHY does he feel o horribly about himself? Is he horrible? (just a not-so-subtle inkling of where he might start.)
bongstar420 says
Really…you don’t think being dumber and lazier would do it?
I do. If he didn’t care about actual relationships, he would have tons of women. Its the same reason I’m half single (I’m with a lady who cannot be my wife so I must look for another). She happens to be extraordinarily accomplished and rated with a 150 IQ. For years were NSA buddies only. Without that, I never would even consider fraternizing with her.
John says
ATTENTION: If all of us were to read countless web sites wrt the “The Battle Of The Sexes”, we soon see that these web sites that cater to this Ideology only serve to draw in (women are right) to the sites that are women bias, and dittos to the (men are right) sites too. Therefore, nothing is solved.
The only way to solve this problem is to look back into the history of PEOPLE on this earth (not MANkind), and find out why divorces were so low only a mere (6, 7 and so on decades ago going right back to the dawn of our existence). In contrast, since ~ the late 60s and most definitely 70s, divorces have continuously increased into today’s catastrophic level and, non-one can say this is how any culture can survive. In brief, when the family life disintegrates so will that society eventually. It will cease to function healthily and eventually be taken over or die off. That is what is happening to western culture via its low birth rate + mentally, emotionally and spiritually challenged children, raised in single parent so called homes. It takes a sperm and egg, and even children know who their real parents are and want them both raising them under the same roof as their so called adult parents rage on with their High Technological demands.
High Technology: There is a directly proportional relationship between the increase in High Technology and the family breakdown (ie. as High Technology has increased so has the breakdown of the family). The same relationship exists between High Tech and the rest of nature (ie. zoology and botany). Obviously, when Natural Laws are broken as Urban living expands, all of life on earth suffers. The most important aspect of Natural Law is the most basic fundamental difference (which is huge), between females and males.
Women have a womb to bear children then breasts filled with nourishment to nourish babies. Men meanwhile, devoid of these two huge factors must do something, which is obviously provide material means of existence while not destroying nature around them both yet, High Technologies is doing just that.
There best example of High Tech’s disintegration of family life came in the 60s (the Pill). It disrupts having family plus changes the physiological state of women’s bodies by altering the reproductive glandular activity of sexual hormone secretion that affects their entire boyd as a whole. This is extremely dangerous and will affect offspring via genetic changes.
There are countless other High Technologies that adversely affect or destroy all other living entities around us that we need to LIVE for our survival. One case in hand, the decline of our honey bee that pollenates so much of our food supply however, do we here the news media talking about this? No.
So since women getting pregnant followed by nourishing a baby naturally via breast feeding takes up at least 2 to 3 years of their lives until teeth are formed then a child can eat solid food, how can she and her male mate be Just to babies/children by orchestrating the means of abandoning the baby/child by granting Careers simultaneous to raising a child under Natural Law? We cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Also, when females are competing for these finite number of Careers with men, how can females expect men to always make at least as much as them and preferably more? What has been happening is, with High Tech growth, tertiary Careers beyond Primary and Secondary ones have grown in leaps and bounds giving females opportunities to out-woman men taking jobs that men could have. Many of these Careers did not exist not too long ago when we lived a more Natural Lifestyle that did not threaten our existence like today’s Physical and Social pollution.
When hiring, human resources experts are all too often females especially in Government paid sectors and even Private too. Result: men are likely to be passed over compared to the process of hiring decades ago when HR ladies were few and far between. Back say in the 60s and prior, one would have to go directly to a prospective employer, meet them, and then be assessed. Most of those employers were males who hired males they knew had to work or else their families would suffer. In fact, it wasn’t even questioned as it is today with the genders always competing with each other. This competition was never intended under Natural Laws. No other mammals see males pitted against females like we humans have become.
When Natural Laws are broken, we are doomed to deteriorate. In western cultures, the newcomers especially of Muslim descant already know this, as do Asian people who come here and have more children. It becomes a numbers game; the ethnic group that bears more children will eventually take over the land with their culture too. It is happening in the States via Spanish people, in Europe via non-Caucasians, same in Canada.
The true victims of this unnatural abnormal Caucasian created existence are the young people of today and those coming. Not Government nor Church does anything about this mess. Governments are afraid of losing enough of the female votes to prevent them from having power while Churches go the same route since much of their congregations compose of middle aged to elderly females. IF a man speaks out on behalf of following Natural Laws or The Laws of Nature, he is immediately pointed at as being non-progressive, a sexists, unrealistic, traditional, etc. Even though he speaks the Truth as to how we are suppose to live this life on earth. And this means not destroying everything that (something we call God) created.
God, we don’t know what IT looks like but if I may be blunt, any fool knows that when we turn away from nature, we are living on borrowed time. So please stop the opposite gender bashing drama. Speak out against unnatural living, and live the natural as much as possible even if you live in an urban center and deprive yourself of extra $$$.
IF we all review say the 1960s – 50s etc economy, when there was one income, family together owning their own home, MUCH lower taxes, products made domestically, and sold domestically, and much more…we’d soon see WHY life was better (not without suffering) back then.
(/) hatemongers says
which all boils down to one thing: white men were happier in the 1950s so that’s how things should be, women and minorities should just accept their inferior place in society
thanks for clarifying.
John says
HATEMONGERS, if you are going to respond, please do so with some effort beyond that statement that has nothing to do with what I shared in depth. I am beginning to believe that far too many people on web sites whether they be youtube or elsewhere have ADD therefore an inept ability to concentrate on more than one sentence. What I usually do when responding either online or in an Email, is copy and paste what the OTHER person shares, then address each of their points. This method shows the recipient I am paying close attention to what they are sharing thus respecting their input.
Karl R says
John,
You put little or no critical thinking into your diatribe. It really deserves less consideration than (/) hatemongers actually gave it. For each paragraph you wrote, I could write two pages dissecting it and demonstrating why it’s wrong. For the sake of brevity, I will try to limit my criticisms to 1 or 2 sentences (focusing on your most egregious errors). Also for the sake of brevity, I will refer to your statements by paragraph number (1-13)
¶1
This site does not cater to a “women are right” or “men are right” ideology. The main opinion leaders feel that those who hold such opinions are wrong.
¶2, 3, 5, 6
Correlation is not the same thing as causation. When looking at changes in complex societies over decades, centuries or millennia, there is no reason to assume that any correlation is the result of causation.
¶2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
These paragraphs state your own personal opinions/beliefs as if they are facts.
¶5, 6, 8
These paragraphs state falsehoods as if they are facts.
– The pill does not cause genetic changes.
– The news media discusses the decline of honey bees.
– There are not a finite number of careers.
¶3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
Under natural law, human lived in small, indigenous tribes eeking out a subsistence existence as hunter-gatherers. Life expectancy was about 43 years. Infant mortality exceeded 25%. There was no written language, no economy (and no monotheistic religions). It was not a paradise.
If you want to live in that state, do so.
In my personal opinion, I feel that your diatribe contains so many blatant and fatal flaws that it undermines itself. I have already given it more time than I feel it deserves.
As a final point, your diatribe has nothing to do with the topic at hand, nor does it appear to directly address anyone’s previous statements. If you want to engage in off-topic diatribes in the future, please be brief.
John says
KARL ok … only time will tell as to what the future holds.
bongstar420 says
Divorce was low because women only had the option to progress in life through marriage. I bet many men raised other men’s children without knowing as a consequence of women that couldn’t accept poverty instead of an unattractive mate.
OllBlueEyes says
Why do nice guys get so pissed off with women when they dont want anything to do with them? Well it’s quite simple. It’s because ever since we nice guys were nice little boys, we were told, often by women, that nice guys where what they wanted. Be nice, you’ll be beating women off with a stick. Not working? Be nicer! We were also told that women were rational agents, like men, and would say what they mean. Take a womans words, and her, seriously! Of course, believing either of these falsehoods is a sure path to unhappiness. And at the point where you realize that you’ve been lied to about something so fundamental to your happiness, and to your identity as a man… well, nice guy or not, you’re going to get angry, probably intensely so. And with any intense emotion, it’s going to stop you from thinking clearly, with the result that the anger will be misappropriately and/or unproductively directed.
Getting angry with women about this is largely pointless, as well as counter productive, you may as well get angry at the sun for causing sunburn. However, this sort of clarity is hard to achieve when you’re reeling from the realization that you have been raised on a steady diet of lies and your entire sexual worldview is crumbling down around you.
Buck25 says
They aren’t necessarily lying; women do appear to want those characteristics (at least some of them) in a relationship. Those last three words are the key. That behavior, however, is not what is sexually attractive to most women, at least in the early phase of meeting and dating, when they’re evaluating whether they feel attracted to a guy or not. Basically, we can’t act like we are their boyfriend, until they decide they want us to be. We can be decent, we can even be kind, so long as we don’t do too much of it. Women want what they perceive is just out of reach; make it too easy for them, the sexual tension goes out of the equation, and they lose interest. This apparently makes perfect sense to women; to a lot of us, it looks like a disconnect between what women say, and what they actually respond to. Confusing? Yeah, is to me too, but, that’s how a good many women act, and for most of them it all seems to be more about how we make them feel, as opposed to some rational calculus.. I hate to generalize even to that point, because far from “all women being alike”, I’ve found it’s easier to find differences than commonalities between them.
bongstar420 says
Your quality as a man is meaningless to a woman if you are in poverty. She would rather be with a lesser man of better looks and higher assets.
(/) hatemongers says
Be nice not a doormat. For some reason too many American men today think men can only exist one of in two states: pushover or raging asshole. The ones who have figured out there’s a universe in between the two have no complaints because they have no problems attracting women.
JulieQ says
Thank God, someone who gets it!!
I wish all those Red Pill super assholes would realize there is a way to be “a nice guy with balls”, as Evan puts it!
bongstar420 says
I can attract women fairly easily. I only need to go out and socialize in public in a manner that they want.
Yet I consistent choose to piss hot women off instead. Also uglies. I’m an equal opportunity guy 😉
ted says
It’s because it’s never just one or even a few women rejecting us. We’re very much aware if the whining about no good guys and being rejected by a woman that’s been whining about it is that much worse.
If women aren’t going to date nice guys at least have the integrity to admit that you’re not going to date us so we don’t waste our time.
Ultimately treating women well takes a lot if time and if women in general ignore us, then why should we waste the effort.
In short, women deserve to not have any good options if they’re continually punishing good guys and dating jerks
Eric says
I would say that dating is a drag over all. I guess I don’t care that much because I’m not angry about that, why be angry over how something is? Why would I? They aren’t that much fun, at least not lately. I don’t think I’m imagining how they act like life is a TV show. I don’t try very hard to meet or ever take girls out. I get taken out a lot. I’d guess it’s 10 to 1. The problem I run into is eventually I encounter an immature tactic in communication & aside from the couple times I was totally in love when they say maybe we should take a break or we should break up or whatever I just say OK.
I do agree that women as a whole are pretty shallow & emotionally immature. In most guys lives the only person they fight with is a woman. Guys resolve their issues pretty easily. I have yet to be involved with or have a close friend be involved with a woman who didn’t start fights over tiny things. Sure they might be building up tension from a series of small events before exploding but who’s fault is that? I would imagine that each of those little things if brought up would be silly annoyances.
With the exception of this blog I don’t read a whole lot of posts about how great being married is or even a marriage can be great if you try hard, rather it’s a nearly unanimous condemnation of guys warning other guys don’t get married. I personally know one man who’s married & doesn’t hate it the rest aren’t having fun.
After witnessing how men are treated in civil court I’ll never consider marriage. All it takes is for a woman to accuse a man & without a drop of evidence they act as if he’s a guilty monster. When he proves his innocence there are hardly ever real actions of recourse for her lies. Even if she does it several times. So why try harder than I do. I think a lot of guys feel just like I do.
bongstar420 says
My only issue with dating is they cannot accurately list their demands. Women do not understand that “attractive” is hardly LTR material and anything that isn’t committed isn’t a relationship even if LTR. In fact, being committed to someone in an open relationship and having dozens of other sex partners is far more of a relationship than monogamous pairs that manipulate and are not 100% honest and dedicated to negotiating outcomes.
Bill says
Well with a 50% divorce rate dating seems kind of pointless. There is nothing steady about a girlfriend. They will dump you the minute they are bored. Escorts and strippers provide a cozy and convenient companionship arrangement. If you are a decent guy you will always lose out to the thug or bad boy so why bother trying to compete with them in the dating world? They are going to get the girl no matter what so you are wasting your time
Zach says
Wow the ladies are so immature on here ☺ï¸
James says
Well since many women over the years that have really changed for the Worst, that certainly explains it.
Maria Dyro says
James still has alot of valid points, alot of women are absolutely hopeless to deal with, useless even and that is why its important to abort early if you sense bs. – regards -M
Kaloyan says
I totally agree that I have a lot to change in myself to be more attractive to women. What baffles me though is the cold heartedness of women, like leaving you without saying a word, and when you call them they say that they have no time, when it’s absolutely obvious, that they just don’t won’t to see you. And if they just tell me that they don’t won’t to see me I would be much happier, but thay like to push you in a direction to act like a jurk. Ofcourse if you are a stronger man you won’t do that and maybe that’s why they are testing you. What is even more fucked up is that after that they go and tell their friends how weak you are and how much of a loser, and to you – their supposed sweatheart they don’t say a thing. Like I won’t ever do that to a person that I’ve had a certain amount of intimacy with. And I haven’t said anything bad about the women that have treated me badly to anyone. When women leave you, they like to bring you to the ground, lower your selfesteem and make you believe that you are not worthy for them. On the other hand when I have no interest in a woman I make sure to not hurt her fealings.
That’s what I think it’s fucked up.
Karmic Equation says
You’re good guy Kaloyan. Don’t stop being one.
Just choose better women.
Don’t let a woman’s physical beauty blind you to her character flaws.
That said, if you ask a woman out and she says she’s busy, and doesn’t offer an alternative date/time, that’s her INDIRECT way of telling you she’s not interested.
If you need a direct answer for closure, then you need to have the courage to ask the direct question she can’t prevaricate on. “Are you still interested in going out with me?” That’s a yes or no question. If she can’t say yes or no and gives you a runaround, then the answer is no. Women who are interested will not be able to restrain their enthusiasm.
To be fair, men disappear on women all the time. You just aren’t aware of this as you’re only dating women.
Darwin says
These sites are funny.
There all over the Internet. The comments are all the same.
Trying to figure out who is the problem.
The natural fact is men are drown to healthy looking women. This means the attractive women with the attractive shape . For the natural purpose of sex. Good looking women have better genes per nature. At least from men eyes.
The natural fact for women is they want a alpha male . Tough and good looking better genes for there baby. Alpha men have better genes per nature. At least from women eyes.
Nothing changes human nature.
After nature drives us to what it needs to survive then the rest is want your personal choices are in finding a personal relationship.
As society has gotten more complex between men and women there personal choices gets larger and makes having a relationship more difficult to achieve.
So the replies from people at these types of sites are all OK. These are just there personal choices they feel and believe are right for them driven by the social changes of the times.
Rodin says
Amen to that.
Not being an alpha male in most women’s eyes (5′ 6″) has illuminated this fact more clearly. Doesn’t matter that I have achieved financial and career success. Doesn’t matter that I have had ambition and own property. Doesn’t matter that I am a Veteran, have a B.S. in Chemical Engineering and an M.B.A. and paid for my college education on my own. Doesn’t matter that I am in shape, no gut, and am healthy.
I can talk easily to women and engage on a friendly level, no problem.
I have been told to my face from several women that I am too short. Never mind that they are 1″, 2″, 3″ or more shorter. I have even been told this after dating a couple of women after a period of time. Then I guess they decide that they just can’t handle being with a shorter guy.
So, my conclusion after 30 some years of dating and relationships, is yes, American women are completely fickle, shallow, hypocritical, superficial and delusional. Only 12% -18% of men are 6′ and above. The rest of us are a big disappointment to women I guess. Women’s reasons are to insure tall offspring, feeling safe (not rational in today’s society), etc. Hollywood exacerbates this by portraying only tall and beautiful people as smart on their various shows. I am so sick of the message that is constantly pounded out.
Being a short guy is akin to being a fat women apparently. There are many articles on this floating around. Except fat is changeable and self controlled, height is baked in.
Cam says
Same old shit guy wants sex with good looking girl girl wants house or should I say nest.
Jim says
Many of us good single men can really blame the women why many of us are still single today since the women of today are really nothing at all like the women of years ago were.
Callie says
Hmm . . . I dunno. You blame women for changing, women blame men for staying stagnant. Who is more right?
(but seriously, whenever a dude posts a sentiment like this it just icks me out. Basically you want to go back to a time where women had no choice but to marry and be unhappy in relationships because that would make YOU happy. Wow. What a caring empathetic kind and “good single man” you are. /sarcasm)
Jim says
To Callie, first you have understand that most of the women of today are very Horrible since i noticed that they have such a very serious attitude problem which many of these women really must have mental issues when they really like to take their problems out on us good men since many of us men do know how to treat a good woman with a lot of love and respect. I never expected to have a woman curse at me when i was trying to start just a simple normal conversation with her which i really believe that she had to be in a very bad relationship at one time with a man that abused her which is very sad for her if that was the case. What do you expect many of us men to do when many of us do know how to treat a woman very well and most of the time unfortunately we do get rejected? That just shows me that many of us men just don’t do well with women at all even when it isn’t our fault. So my statement is very much the truth even though you may not agree with me at all. I don’t expect to be all alone the rest of my life when i really should’ve been all settled down by now with my own good wife and family that i still don’t have today which the type of women that we have now these days are very much to blame for that unfortunately. And yes i know friends of mine that are going through the same thing too which we really have no reason at all to blame ourselves since it does take two to tangle.
Nick says
Evan, This former NFL Cheerleader really sells out her fellow women. Google the 3 real reasons nice guys finish last but always end up winning in the end. It indicates most women are emotionally unavailable and try to “fix” damaged men that are losers. Good men have a right to be down about this.
Carol ashley says
Sounds like my husband. He blames all pass relationships on the women, when himself don’t want to make an effort to change n learn from it.
AJ says
Most women that are still Single are to Blame since they just can’t stay in a committed relationship with just only one guy.
Jim says
Well with the kind of women we have out there now really speaks for itself. Doesn’t it? Well i would certainly say so.
Gerald says
Read through every comment. Wow. Many many posts I Concurr with, said what I wanted to say, beyond my ability to say it.
Just want to reiterate, natural law cannot be violated, only proven. In that vein, preferences aside, I don’t think we live in a stable society. Unless there is change/reversion, Western civilization is doomed. Who knows but in thousands of years of history, this model is completely new, of family unit.
It’s a complex issue, and I don’t know if this one particular piece has generated do much debate or all of Mr. Katz’s works have.
Few have touched on the frustration factor, and how frustration seems to work on the brain and makes us think crazy thoughts and say crazy things, even frustrations not directly related to subject at hand.
I have found lifting weights and getting fit and muscular, my new favorite thing, boosts my ego and makes me feel good, proud, as well as makes me more attractive to women. There is NO substitute for bodybuilding , not even other forms of exercise, let alone jogging. And i have a great job coming up. Friends, including female friends, and allies (nothing to do with homosecuality) boost my morale. It is a morale/confidence thing, and no man is an island. I just bought my 1st house and will move in soon. Things look good.
Still I have experienced massive frustration in dating as ppl, the men describe. I am 34. I see Evans article as a bit trite. It’s a truism.
I think every man, and I’m taking this road should improve every core area of his life. He should make every main area of his life strong, and good, but perfection is impossible. Art of manliness kind of approach. The perfect is the enemy if the good, in men striving or in women demanding, at least being perfect in all areas. Insane. Perfect in one or at most 2 perhaps. Women do have power to train men, until men catch on. Men usually resent it or I do, but then I deal with it I guess.
There has to be a market. We all know governments can fuck with markets. I believe really it is not a male or female problem or individual problem, but the society problem, decadence. Nietzsche can be consulted. It won’t last, I predict. Yeah as someone said, the one constant is the society. Then again to each his own. Oregonians may enjoy their society. Who am I to judge. Now I’ll share women I’ve dated.
A German Jewish woman gave me much warm love but I was younger than her. It wasn’t natural. A younger Italian woman gave me much love and that was Sooo right so natural. That was in the Italian countryside. A California woman drove me crazy. We still keep in touch. In fact just talked to her tonight. She is crazy. She has crazy expectations. She wasn’t meant to handle serious life responsibilities, and I say that with the best of wishes, because she is intelligent and kind, but she’s clueless, and she posts all this feminist and new age stuff. I like her, she’s beautiful and delicate but I wouldn’t commit to get in 100 years. She can’t be trusted (I.e. relied upon). If society was different she might rely on a man. Maybe she still will, but if she acts independent, entitled, no man will want her. I tell you, Midwestern men and women, where I’m from, are so different than those California women. I say women, not men. I know for a fact, she gives me updates about other guys I met she introduced me to, whom I mostly respect. It’s really like the movie something about Mary. She drives multiple men crazy. Fine, but historically societies role for her would have been as mother, under a man, and she might have been happier, and healthier, and society more stable. Not perfect perhaps, and our ideology of extrene induvidual freedom and equality may have done some harm to ppl, if happiness/health is main concern. I hate to argue against values I cherish, individual liberty, etc. I wince at my own comments, but don’t agress on me. Do so on Islamic societies first of all, for they are practitioners of unfreedon and patriarchy.
Anyway I missed out on many good women who had interest. Maybr if I would have responded to their interest, I would have lost them. Maybr I was clueless. Maybr I didn’t have my career up so I felt unconfident, or maybe I was just stupid. I’m talking about beautiful women (definitely good enough) who had good character. Btw I usually find girls who can work hard at a job have good character and the inverse is true, regardless if age. Also country girls, those from good intact families, and those who are Christian, Jewish or Muslim (I’m none).
But now I have a career. I dove deep into doc love. I got a good idea of what he suggests. I still don’t know. I read the replies and I have to consider Taking his work with a grain of salt. He’s too universalist perhaps. Why can’t a man show drive, to touch, if he is not an excuse? Still he’s not bad, worth investigating.
Women it’s obvious, I think even more so than men perhaps, are different both biologically and culturally due to place if origin. To each his own but I find my own birth countries culture kind of sick and crazy, if not toxic and repressive and hypocritical. I love what it’s been, at least since I was a child, but not what its becoming. I don’t feel pride for my own land anymore. I want to make America great again. And yes I know some ppl will say in the 50s there was slavery. But not in the midwest where I’m from. Anyway that’s nor what I’m talking about and I don’t want to argue. That’s a stupid kind of argument detail.
I have had girls pass me over for what seemed like idiotic reasons as our connection seemed so strong and I made them laugh. It was frustrating. Girls, this is why men, if they don’t give up and get fat, want power and will work for it. If it doesn’t get them love and respect (and it doesn’t hurt), it will make then feel a bit better and channel their frustration. And that’s why men will always be leaders. Male genetic continuation depends on it. That’s why even successful women care so much to be told they’re beautiful. Don’t you get it? Natures laws can never be amended by the legislature of man. Men frustrates in such a way will seek wealth and power. It’s called learning from your lesson.
Btwtheres always a danger of over generalizing and wrongly generalizing. This is part of learning theory and is true in all walks of life, not just dating. I attribute failures of dating and mating now not to womens nature or man’s, but to our society. The Conservatives are to blame as much as the liberals. We need a revaluation of all values. Anyway the only defense against wrong generalisation is lots of thought, careful thinking and discipline. Slow and deliberate thinking.
Dating is crazy. Who would have known. In fact dating itself is a modern idea. I met a girl in Minnesota, like an Amish but not technically. She was so into me, she betrayed her sexual fantasies without realizing it. She spoke to me of courtship. She was a total Jesus freak and practically clinical level neurotic and sexually inexperienced. But aside from the health effects of strange habits, she was healthy, kind of radient actually, innocent and pure, and intelligent and articulate. She spoke of courtship, not dating. She would hardly let me touch her. But she also felt extremely guilty over numerous things, including for po tentially hurting my feelings, wasting my time, etc. I actually find this guilt refreshing. You so rarely see it in women, it shows what’s lacking. Im sure whoever married her, she will have feminine wiles and try to control man in some ways, but she has guilt. She also is mostly covered. I find her modest dress attractive actually. She has an attractive spirit versus the blank selfie stare and show all cleavage of others. Sorry but you are all attention hungry. I just found her different. She’s too different in her religion even for church. Obviously I’m not with her and last I heard she did something spontaneous and eloped with a guy. Her dad seems pretty sabe, a trick driver and handiman. Anyway her gift to me was she put these other women in very stark contrast, showed me humility and modesty and old fashioned virtue in s woman, as opposed to the holier than thou attitude my mother and others like to display. Oh but she didn’t “date”, she was courting or being courted. Good, we need something different. See: Einstein and insanity.
Mgtow: perhaps in some cases at least, another word for man has to make his way in the world before settling down befire thinking of attracting a mate. And as hymowitz points out in Manning up, the knowledge economy postpones adult stages of development. I worked with construction workers past 2 years and their lives are simpler, and they seem more manly and adult, despite being drinkers and getting DUIs, than college guys 5 years their senior. Too much sitting I guess. Combined with girls being farther ahead financially, guys have to do this type of mgtow longer, before they feel secure to attract and date?? Perhaps, especially if they’re unsponsored (unsupported, by like rich or supportive family, coaches, etc) and have to find their own way on their own.
I like Katz’s nice guy with balls approach. Still I think it may be more idealistic than effective. Case in point, myself- lol. I’m being tongue and cheek, but sometimes I feel it takes balls to hold back sexuality only to find the woman just wanted to get fucked or see desire. Or just being cued in to a communities rules system for dating. I can think of other exceptions. I think “nice guy withballs ” is idealistic wishful thinking, that if you’re nice and have balls, you’ll get a high quality relationship or sex or your hearts desire.
So my approach is to kind of be a nice guy but not always with balls, and muscles , in a secure social and financial position, taking calculated dating risks, practicing art if manliness stuff in my overall life, dress sharp, considering carefully and discovering once and for all how the place if female sexual interest in a man and their coming and staying together, and how to use it.. All this is part of my dating/ life plan and still I recognize that women may be looking for the perfect man and I have too many faults, etc. Or she likes me but ibfinf she has little to offer that I want, because she gave her body to many men and I’m just another object, and she gave her emotion to her work and though she chose me, feels entitled, not grateful, certainly feels she doesn’t need me , i.e. not a flexible giver with a good attitude. Thst may be where DL helped me most in the end.
I agree, there’s no substitute for good attitude, from both the male and female perspective. Where attitude is bad, stay away, and don’t expect attitudes to change. What you see is essentially what you get. Better being single. Some aspects of attitude are just compatibility issues, not to judge the other over. Beauty is in the eye if beholder.
Yes, women of this generation in the US are not the same as former generations. I see the difference in my grandmother’s vs my mother and others, and my grandma worked. Usher in the chorus of women now who say “yeah, we’re independent and successful”. Sure you are, but men generally don’t, and least I don’t, judge a woman’s attractiveness and relational value in the same way you might judge mens, IOW what you can bring financially . in fact it may just make you stressed and entitled, with college debt and and ego. Maybe not. I was arrested to two PHD students here, both from Europe. Turns out I was really attracted to them both and they to me, certainly one of them but probably both, but they just didn’t have any time!! That was not fun. Always busy busy busy. Now is still here, no time and the other got her desired job in Singapore. Well also both seem to be pushing mid 30s if I had to guess. Well so I’m not intimidated by their degrees or intelligence. In fact I found it moderately attractive, and they didn’t have egos, but still this got in the way. Why when a man says women today are different than s generation agoz women sometimes bust out with pride at their achievements in work and such as if what the man was trying to get at went totally over their heads? Because these women haveso much invested in it? Because it’s knee-jerk? Because it’s a test? We don’t care, either way, pro or con, but definitely con if it gets too much in the way of your traditional duties. Yeah we men still have our traditional duties. We want you because you complete us if I may generalize and be a spokesman. At least this is how I feel. But if in your modern Mary Tyler Moore quests you fail to complement us, what good are you? Some good, your worth isn’t gone completely, but to paraphrase Jesus, youre like salt that has lost its saltiness. I’m afraid you’ll get trampled underfoot when you’re past your prime.
But all I want, by far my #1 criteria for women is availability. She just has to be emotionally and physically available to me on a reasonable basis. Also trustworthy, dependable, supportive. These are just some of the core aspects of good attitude, not even getting into nurturing and feminine and kind. And I’ll give a lot as a man, but my view is a woman who isn’t available is not a woman I’m in a relationship with, even if it says so on paper. I can handle bitch. Flake is my sore spot.
Women have done a great job of educating me sy university, and I know they can be smart like a man, but that’s not where your relationship attractiveness comes into play, I think for most men its safe to say. I find women today lack the skills in flirting and so on that I thought or assumed were just natural and biological to them. Theycant flirt, hence get confused about what to do when a guy they like shows interest.
In matters of work, sometimes they can be trusted, and relied on.. Yes and even so the men. I worked with some great female workers. But just cause this is the case doesn’t mean the same women can be relied on in matters of the heart, and not for I’ll will. I mean, they don’t know how to be courted, how to be picked up, seduced, caught. And that makes men have to shoulder again more of the burden, try to read minds, taje extra risks, and its not their job. Maybe Disney taught women not only to expect a prince, but also to assume he’d do all the lifting, the seduction, the connecting, including the apology. I love a woman that puts out honest effort, in a non game playing way. It’s rare. I read some girls chase dating sites for men..I want them to chase me, a little at least. JT would be more equal then. I want to be supreme and dominant (totally tonguein cheek) but I’ll settle for equality and for mutual understanding.
I took time to write out something I think is honest and articulate and insightful, but if I wouldn’t have taken the time, I could have written identical to what many frustrated guys and some women wrote, so go easy on them. They echo my thoughts. I am very frustrated often and on the edge of despair. Everyone should lift weights if only for this reason.
I just had a chat with that Italian woman and it was wonderful.
Rememberfrustrating and helplessness breed crazy angry thoughts. Sometimes it’s the anger of scarcity and deprivation in a place that seems so rich in food. I’m 34 and though I’ve always wanted it, I’ve never really been in a real relationship, not even for a year. Just when I get some true sex and connection with a woman, I feel like King of the world. It’s like heaven and as elusive. In poverty, you can’t expect men and women to be sane and rational and jolly. In love, it seems so easy. Really, with that Italian woman and German one, I felt like I had life all figured out and the women gave me so much confidence. They say you need confidence to get a wonan ( and that’s sexist because women aren’t told they need it to get a man), but I’ve found its the women that give so much confidence, so I hope something like this, what so many of my friends have already, is in my future. I had no idea I’d run into issues with women like I have. It’s totally crazy, and I’m sure good women can say the same regarding men..I too have heard stories.
bongstar420 says
You told the guy to lower his standards…his observations are totally accurate. I could lay these women left and right if I was willing to lie about their quality as human beings vs their standards for their partners.
Men For Men says
Written by a woman who thinks she understands the male mindset better than a man does. Have you ever noticed these types take ONE example and them blow it up to include ALL MEN? Now if I were analyze a woman I am told ” You are not a woman so you cant understand what we think”. How hypocritical of many women….in other words, men you are stupid about how we feel and what we need and too dumb to know you need to change for us”. Now that sounds a “tad” bit self centered. No…mens voices are being silenced by radical feminism…they know that eventually the woman will leave, label him an abuser, make up fictitious stories and he will lose in court because she has a vagina and he has a penis. Women have used the courts to gain access to what men have worked hard for, created and then lost. Men play around because these types that the author dismisses as trivial, are the NORM. Its obvious women still are saying men have to do all the changing and must succumb to the needs of the woman ( entitlement)…this is the experience not only of JAMES in the story but MOST MEN…and this author trivializes it. The bad boy KNOWS all he has to do is give her what she wants and he can sleep with her…..the good man wants nothing to do with these women which this author trivializes. I think to be fair…a mens movement is needed.
Buck25 says
@ Tyler,
Whoa! We do the same thing to women; the stereotyping, the false generalizations; you know, the blame game that begins with, “ALL of THEM are….”., Well no, they aren’t, any more than we are. Even if they were, what’s your solution? Should we guys all form a union? Yeah, that’ll show ’em! Gee, maybe we could go on strike, or riot, or stage a revolution…that’ll really help. Nice angry fantasy to vent frustration with.. and as effective as spitting into the wind, or pissing in the ocean; none of that is going to change the desires and attitudes of women, any more than the screeching fringe of the feminist movement is going to change ours. Do yourself a favor; give up the angry attitude, use your logical brain (you’re a man, so you have one, right?) to figure out how to relate more effectively to women, the way they are, right now, with what you can bring to the table, and quit living in fantasy land. The only way you, I, or any other man, is going to go back to “the way it used to be” is if someone invents time travel. Until then we are stuck with the reality we have. Incidentally, if you think the fifties were all that idyllic, for men or women, I was around back then, and I beg to differ. It was the same kind of mixed bag we have today, just a different bag. As of now, this is the only game in town, and for me, and you, and women too, the choice is simple; either sit down, ante up, and play the hand you were dealt, or go home and have a pity party because you think someone stacked the deck.
Tyler says
You’ll see the repercussions of the behaviors of women in due time. “James” is right. Men have been driven to our wit’s end. We were patient and selfless to a much larger degree than women. The damage is permanent. The fallout has only begun. How anyone can see possibilities of dating and marrying these women is very ignorant. I know the elite created feminism and socially engineered women in order to create division to keep us fighting among ourselves, but still, women are terrible individuals and deserve punishment for their actions for which they are not being held accountable. I can go on and on as I have for many years, but this will have to do.
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Bill says
Another option for guys who have little or no dating success is to drop out of the dating pool. You can drop out for 3 weeks or 3 months or 3 years..as long as you want. It will relieve a lot of stress and misery. If anyone asks why you are not dating just say that you are busy and are taking a break. Never, never blame your lack of success on the opposite gender. This will bring a lot of grief down on you and prolong a conversation that you never wanted in the first place. Just give the reply I mentioned above and you will be fine. To tell you the truth when you stop pursuing women you will feel a wonderful sense of peace. You will relate to women on a gender neutral basis and this is so much more relaxing.
Mark says
Hey Evan. I just read your article and the responses to your post and while I agree with a large portion of it I still disagree to an extent about the whole “Oh he is complaining about women therefore he is a hypocrite and immature” approach. I honestly believe (and I may be wrong) that the majority of the failing marriages and dating is not squarely on the shoulders of men (not saying you said that but it’s the vibe I got from reading this). Truth be told I don’t think it is either complaining men or women at large that has to do with this explosion of mistrust and “giving up” so to speak. I think that it has to do with our environment, namely our society and the garbage it pumps into us at an early age through media and societal pressures. Our society teaches men to objectify women and also teaches women to objectify men . I’ll give you an example of the latter. Most women would not be interested in a guy who could not support them financially (bread winner mentality). That’s just the plain truth. That is objectifying men in order to improve your own circumstances at the expense of another. Men do the same thing. I have schizophrenia and anxiety problems. I know for a fact that I cannot give a women what she needs in a relationship so I have opted out. I didn’t do it to flip a bird to all women out there I just realized that all I offer them is problems and it would never work. I don’t consider myself a MGTOW or a an anti-feminist I just simply can’t give women what they want. Generalizations can be helpful sometimes (statistics wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t) but to say that all men and women who complain or don’t want to change (or in my case, can’t change) is to say that jumping on the societal bandwagon that says all men make money for women and all women sleep with men as a reward is just wrong. Maybe the way the whole approach to dating in our society today is flawed, and just maybe, it is the way we are taught and the information presented to us through society and media that is more of a culprit than stubborn males/females, that’s all I’m saying.
LetTheRealTruthBeTold says
The way that these type of women out there that really think that they’re all high and mighty will lose at the end anyway since they’re so very greedy and selfish which they will just grow old with their cats anyway since they will have no man in their life at all to begin with since many of us men out there would not want that type of woman anyway. They would be such a waste of time to have a relationship with anyway since they can never be trusted at all which is why many relationships have failed already because of this. First they will need how to have manners since they’re so very nasty to us men when they should read a book on how to have better manners which many of them really have not grown up yet which is very sad.
Peter says
I’ll admit, Evan: you make numerous valid points and Im sure your analysis of James was right. But you should know that you come off as a cocky prick who made a guy down on his luck with women feel worse..
Evan Marc Katz says
James hung up on me because he didn’t want to be open to my advice. So it’s not only my job to help the guy who hung up on me because of his blind spots, but to make him FEEL good about his choice? We all make choices in this world. James will live with the consequences of his, as I will live with the consequences that you think I’m too cocky.
Ted says
I’m sorry, but Peter is right. You can’t help somebody that hangs up because you’re being a jerk. I deal with students all the time who need to change and I specifically don’t tell them that because then they’d be stuck, angry and dug in.
I give recommendations to consider and let them decide if they want to.
Rightly or wrongly, men have a right to feel like valuable people.
Somebody like James or me needs to have hope. Before considering changes.
Evan Marc Katz says
Look at the millions of nice guys who did find love. There’s your hope.
Nick says
If one went to a dealership no car salesmen will ever say you shouldnt buy this car or that car. Selling cars is his job just like being a relationship coach is your job Evan. Youre going to tell everyone who claims they have problems finding a lifetime mate they need to work on themselves. If I had someone I know recommend you to me Id hire you in a second. Im not too proud to get help. But I havent so far so Im a skeptic.
the-sphynx says
@kpak76 (in thread 30)
The Equal Rights Amendment never passed. It failed in 1992 & was never revived. But that is just all of a piece with your other MGTOW inaccuracies.
Men urinating in public is a misdemeanor, unless it’s deliberately done as an exhibitionist tactic where children can see. I have never heard of anyone being put on a sex offender list for doing so: kindly provide a link to a source in the real world. In any case, it has nothing to do with rape laws, which are nowhere draconian, and poorly enforced.
I also don’t believe 1 in 4 women get assaulted during college. In their lifetimes, perhaps, but not during college. Doesn’t change the fact that rape is poorly reported and infrequently punished.
Only a guy who was looking for any reason to be offended would be worrying about TV depictions of weak and silly dads. I don’t lose sleep over all the weak and silly bimbos in male-centered movies, who barely figure in the plots except as a reward. Why are you even worrying about this?
Buck25 says
“Why are you worrying about this?”
@ The Sphynx
Probably for the same reason you might worry about movies and other media images that portray women in what you perceive in an unfavorable light. I think that’s understandable; that if you’re having a hard time dating, you’re going to resent anything you see as a potential roadblock being placed in your way (especially if you think it’s unfair). Now if you are saying that kind of thinking is a waste of time and energy, I agree with you; it’s more productive by far to focus on things you can change (like your own behaviors and attitudes) to give yourself more and better options, than it is to focus on what you can’t change (Hollywood, the media, societal trends, or the wants, beliefs and behaviors of the opposite sex). It’s shortsighted, but it’s human nature to find it easier to blame someone else for our lack of success, than to own our failure and do the hard work of trying to better ourselves. It’s not just men, and it’s not just women either; both genders do this.
df says
I have some questions about your assessment of James and what kind of advice you might have offered. Not asking for your professional advice in full, just a snippet of what James could reasonably have expected if he WAS willing to work with you.
1. James expressed a disconnect between the kind of woman he was looking for, and the kind of women he was seeing online or in person. He was not asking what he needs to change in order to be someone that these women wanted. He could have changed to be exactly what (some) women wanted, and still been in the same predicament. They weren’t what he wanted. Both boxes need to be ticked, not just one.
(a) do you think what James wanted was reasonable?
(b) should James have changed what he found desirable in a women, and is that even possible to do?
As I see it, if you don’t find what you’re looking for, either learn to accept and embrace being single (since that then becomes your best option for life), or re-evaluate what you want from life/relationships. Too many people seem to approach the question thinking that anything is better than being single. That’s false. By far the worst situation is being with someone abusive, and then followed by being with someone controlling who suffocates your freedom. In my view, being single is like a close second to being with someone who is good for you (and you for them). It’s all in how you frame it, I guess.
But just to satisfy my curiosity, if James had to change what he wanted, in order to get what he wanted, is that really success? I guess that’s for the individual to weigh up. But following the same logic, if the way to success was simply to realign “what we want” with “what is available”, why not go a step further and realign “what we want” with “what we already have now” and avoid all the trouble. If the latter option is not possible in order to remain happy, then why is the former option any better?
Kim says
I have two sons. Both grown men. One married but unhappy the other unhappy and not married. I raised my sons as a single mother for a few years. The problem was my second husband had issues I didn’t see til many years later. He was the kind of guy who competed with me. Who got jealous if I got ahead or people liked me. Weird. I was duped. Too kind and loving and forgiving and I gave people the benefit of the doubt. Narcissistic selfish men will always have a rough time with women because these guys hate women, fear women, abuse women, never understand women or even try to know deeply a woman. These guys play act until they can’t anymore and the mask comes off. They are complete frauds. Guess what traits my sons picked up on….. Thinking women are second class citizens. It’s made it rough for me as I was raised to respect both my parents who passed away many years ago now. But fake men all charming and like no one you ever met before who wine and dine and it’s all so intense and fast watch out! NARCISSIST!!!!! You don’t want to get mixed up with one of them trust me. Those men can’t get along with women because their only goal is to break women and for nothing other than pleasure and control. Sad but true.
Joe says
So basically attitude is everything? Got it Evan. in fewer words…
bob says
He has it bad lol.
Im 55 and never been on a date lol and at this
juncture of my life , I’m sticking & staying single. Christ at 54 , I just purchased my dream car – Maserati .. I’m actually ok with it being single lol . For years , I was pissed off at the world but, I settled into the role of the terminal bachelor and doing lots of things I never thought I get to do . I travel a lot been all over the world just exploring and experiencing new things , people & culture .
i am so glad , I wasn’t given the opportunity lol or given myself the chance . Thank god for social anxiety . I wouldn’t trade it for the world ..,
Marie says
bob
Then why are you on a dating advice website?
Chris says
Seattle women are, in fact, terrible for dating. I just moved back from Salt Lake City, Utah. The women there are absolutely amazing. Smart, sweet, family oriented, and know how to treat men. Most of them actually want to have families. Too many women in Seattle don’t want kids or are single mothers from multiple fathers and care too much about having a better job than everyone else. I was only in Utah for a 1 year assignment and already want to move back. I thought all women were like Seattle women until I moved to Utah. Nope! Now that I’m back, I’m realizing just how bad Seattle women are. They are fatter, have inflated egos, way too liberal, and too concerned with being the man they want instead of being with the man they want.
MakeMeLaugh! says
Hi Chris! Isn’t this true! I’m a girl and have lived for years in Seattle, moved away for a couple years here and there (different parts of the US), and can say that Seattle girls are also impossible to make friends with. I’ve never had difficulty when I’ve lived other places, but for the life of me, no matter how friendly I am, I can’t seem to connect well in Seattle. Seattle guys….? Let’s just say that Seattle has the highest percentage of single mothers for a reason. The guys here skate on responsibility. They want to play around. They want to drink and get high and they don’t want to be accountable. It is the worst city to live in for a girl (IMHO).
You are SO SPOT ON when you talk about girls in Seattle wanting to be the man. I don’t know how much of it is reactionary. Let’s just say that men in Seattle don’t want their woman to be a woman. They want her to have plenty of her own money, they don’t want to have to take care of her, they want her to pay her own way. Women are terrified of depending on a man and having the man flake out of their life. I wonder how many women develop that “I will be the man” mentality to ward off a reactionary response to really wanting to be provided for/protected/etc and not being able to handle the man dropping the ball on them again?
Chivalry is almost dead in Seattle. It might be because women will bite you if you try to hold the door open for them. The guys I’ve connected with as friends are those who almost always moved to Seattle from other states. They want to treat a woman like a lady, even if it’s their friend. They open the door for me, etc.
I wouldn’t give up looking, though! Because there are girls like me who didn’t grow up here and who want an old fashioned guy and some of them live in Seattle, too!
Cam says
Seattle that’s the cold hard truth. The only thing I like about Seattle is Ivars fish and chips.
Diesel says
Men need to change. Women must be accepted as they are.
Men need to lower their standards. Women must never to settle.
This is why we have backpage, and why prostitution must be made legal. Because the truth is women are only good for one thing and trying to seriously date one or God forbid marry one (don’t do this guys!) is simply insane. And should you be nimble enough to land one in marriage, when she grows tired of you and feels she can get someone better, she will be out the door, and she and her Hebrew lawyer will take away half of your earnings and leave you in ruins. That’s the way the “game” works. It’s a stacked deck and you cannot win. All of the personal assessment bullshit is just designed to string you along again and again.
Cam says
safe cold hard truth . Sex aint all that big of a deal. In the end who gives a shit except a horn dog who feeds his addiction with constantly with pornography.
Scott says
Here’s how I approach women, after much experience unfortunately,…. because this is basic understanding which I should have been raised with:
“Would I want to make more of her?” And that’s very moral, helps take away neediness. And, you gotta be doing ‘your things’ in life, ‘god first’, ‘doing your mission’ first in making a living/life, being productive, being your authentic self in a good way, and, not being needy with women, but appreciating and enjoying being with women you’re truly attracted to, and who you’d like to make more of(yes, I realize biology is a gamble, but let’s consider the matter of probabilities with who you are and who you mate with, in the type of offspring you’ll make). Have a child or two,… and make the children with a woman you want to make more of. Have sex with a woman you want to make more of. Man up, be humble, be strong, be reasonably confident. And, learn, get experience as you can, as needed.
JG says
I see that James could change his approach. And it would probably work. What arrests my attention though is, yeah he could change to attract women and learn how to…but that makes it seem even more like a stupid game. If he say all the right things…does all the right things then he could attract someone. That just seems like a poor way to be attracted to someone. They wouldn’t be liking James. They would be liking his words and actions which are only there to attract someone. James wants a girl to like him as he is, like him for him. Not because he learned what to do and say to any shallow women(doesnt that make them all the same and less special if anyone can learn to do that??) Why is that his wrong doing??? Not everyone can be an Olympic athlete. Isnt that part of what makes them amazing? That not every Joe shmoe can run 20 miles an hour?? I don’t know if Id want a girl that any guy can pick up if done right. It’s the nice guys finishes last senerio. And they do. I use to be too nice (still trying to be mean. I’m just too nice.) Nobody wants a nice caring guy. They more or less want some hot asshole to try and win over because he’s being a challenge…..games….that’s what we have consoles for. That’s pretty selfish and shallow. Don’t believe me? Make a dating profile with some hot model. Minimal effort into the about me stuff . Then do the same with an average guy (used myself.) Make that profile the best you can ( not that it’s going to matter) who do you think got more likes? Even had women sending the fist messages? The shitty profile with the hot model. Now here’s the good part. Not that this really happens alot. Most women either become offened and try to stick up for them selfs..yet….they didn’t ignore me or block me. I will usually send back a message or even send a first message describing how shallow she must be to think she had a chance with such a hot guy with no real info by only saying hi. The good part is…I actually had a decent women simply disagree and said that I could still get to know her. WTF. I was a straight asshole. Like more then what should work. I was deliberately being too mean. I was dumbfounded that she was that shallow. I though you said no women would ever want to date a man who thinks all women are unfair. I guess it doesn’t matter what you think as long as you have a hot body. To bad I don’t really look like that. What became of my profle??? A few one word replies with nothing to go off of. After sending messages for days. Being a hot asshole gets more results then being nice at all. Looks do matter. More then people let on. Especially online. If I was that model I could act anyway I want and still have women chasing me. That’s messed up. No compromise…No love. I dated a girl that was …eh. I actually started liking her and her …unibrow, her mustache…cat box smelling apartment, her body oder. I liked her for her. That’s who she was. Here’s an average or (less then) women I thought liked me. She friendzoned me and said it was because of family issues. I was too nice is what really happened or the next best thing came around. She didn’t like me buying dinner or buying her a rose. Well …she liked free dinner. I thought there was no reason for her to do that. We had great sex. Both artistic, have things in common, got along…didnt matter. Just don’t be too nice and hope she doesn’t go window shopping for men and find one she likes the look of better.
James says
Dating is so EASY these days. Message women, invite them out quickly after 3 or 4 texts with a definite place and time, meet in person, and act like a man that wants to have sex with them. Touch them, tease them, flirt with them, invade their personal space by touching their jewelry and commenting on it or asking about it, grab their hands and tell them they have soft hands, stroke their hair and tell them how soft it looks, kiss them in-date when you want to…be a damn man that acts like they have testosterone flowing through your body, because so many men these days don’t.
Escalate, escalate, pull back and push them away, create a barrier they need to get through like “we can’t do this here, there are too many people around” with a sly smile and then 5 minutes later escalate some more. In public, at a bar, restaurant(WHY,WHY, WHY are you taking random chicks to restaurants on first dates? How have they earned that???), park, etc…It doesn’t matter….ESCALATE sexually towards her…grab her butt, whisper in her ear how sexy she is looking and how you can’t keep your hands off her…women LOVE this in spite of what they might say…they want to feel wanted by a man…it turns them on and they will literally be soaking their panties in your presence…
You will get laid more by simply going for what you want in one month than you will by taking women out to fancy restaurants and buying them things in 5 years…try it and you’ll love the results.
Elemental says
I met a James a few months ago. It was my first experience with OLD and I’d only had my profile up for 48 hours when my James messaged me. He came across as smart and fun in his first message, and a little bit vulnerable so I checked out his profile. He was OK looking, had a middle-age guy beer belly, about my height, hairline receding a bit and I messaged him in return because NONE of those things disqualified him in my mind. His profile also yielded a bit more information about the important stuff, like some of his values and that he was looking to date and I was looking to date (as a newbie I didn’t quite realize how incredibly vague that term is – I’ve since revised my profile to looking for a relationship).
I responded and we messaged back and forth through the site for a couple of days until we set up a meeting. There was just something about him I really liked that first meeting. He also had a lot of negative things to say about online dating, but I agreed to see him again thinking maybe he was just nervous. On our first date he shared a lot (sidestepping my best attempts to steer the conversation elsewhere) about his recent and not so recent romantic past, and it was even more negative than the first time.
But during that first date I also saw glimpses of a guy with a lot of really great qualities – doted on his grown daughters and their kids, kind, great sense of humour, affectionate – and when he talked about his past he kind of moved between anger/bitterness and vulnerability/sensitivity (the latter more attractive than the former). And our mutual physical attraction was really strong. He also took his dating profile down that night, a decision he’d made before we met because he was feeling he needed a break from online dating.
I saw him once more a few days later – pretty much a replay of our first date with a bit more making out. This was the date where he told me he didn’t want a relationship. And after several more hours of him bashing women I decided it was time for me to bail.
After that we kind of did a slow fade on each other. He’d message me, not to see me, and we’d text for a couple of hours. Then a week later I’d message him and we’d text for a while. The time between these text visits grew longer and then a little over a month ago was the last time we were in touch.
Until he showed up last week as someone who’d viewed my profile on the dating site where we first met. I have no idea when he signed up again.
Unlike the profile I’d seen a few months back, his new one is written like a cyber temper tantrum – short, choppy statements with lots of exclamation marks following each one. No sign of any of the sweetness I’d seen in him.
It’s full of contradictions about what he does and doesn’t want. He doesn’t want a a relationship or commitment of any kind, he wants to meet people and then admonishes those who think texting is a relationship. He goes on to say a lot of pretty disparaging things about women in general.
It’s so angry and cynical, it’s sad and I feel sorry for how miserable he seems to be. But I also know, as much as I see a great guy buried in there, he’s the only one that can get out of his own way.
So men of OLD; I’m not the only woman online who can see what’s great about you, but if you’ve decided we’re all shallow, catalog shopping, (insert whatever other disparaging opinion here) you may be missing out on meeting a woman who will love you for who you really are.
Lily says
I just read a profile from a Seattle guy who demands that his date is “skinny, beautiful, and financially independent”. He is 51 years old and looked average at best. My demands back at him were – you can’t be a narcissistic jerk who thinks so highly of yourself. Match is full of deplorable people …. oh, never give out your phone number unless you want a d*ck pick. Even if you’ve met them once before. Fix some of these problems and just maybe dating would be easier for all.
Steve says
So you say that neither men nor women are ever going to change, but you tell both to change… think about it.
Selfish says
Can I just ask. Are we even supposed to be ourselves? I see a billion different campaigns about how all women are beautiful and unique and perfect. Are men? Or are we less. I don’t even want the nice answer and more. I don’t care I7 want the truth so I can accept it and just move forward. Am I supposed to not have any pride in myself and my insticts unless I’m that certain type of guy who just got it right straight off? Is there someone for everone because men will make themselves fit their women?
I spent a long time changing and evolving. I got betyet at a lot of things. People liked me more, but you know what… I hated myself. I was never good enough. Now I’ve finally gotten to a point of comfort and acceptance in just about everything but dating. I enjoy being me but I can’t get ladies to agree. I don’t want it to back into that sad state of constant flux with no anchor. Its not worth it. I don’t want to lose myself just to get somebody else. Its not worth it before. I’ve been selfless before and it hurt. Maybe now I’m overly selfish… But it seems like in general it just comes down to men constantly needing to change. Perhaps it’s the same for women too. But it seems like a state of flux is your natural state. Me, I’ve spent my whole life trying to change into the form where finally people would be happy and just leave me be. I was always willing to change of it meant that eventuslly, finally I would just be able to rest and be myself.
If that’s never to come than I’ve no reson to exist.
Kate says
Wow I am quite a bit late on this thread but, I must say you have a challenging job Evan. People can be quite disillusioned, and disrespectful- even when you’re trying your best to help them or have their best interest in mind. I like you Evan – you’re very honest. Relationships are a very difficult thing to tackle and I give you a lot of credit for doing this in life. It seems our culture is experiencing a very strange time in dating in the past five years, I don’t know how you handle these issues. Best to you~
-Kate (San Francisco CA, 33)
Alouette says
I know many men want women to take them just they way they are…fat and slobby and unkempt with baggy clothes like they slept in them. And how about shaving off that scruff? It’s un-cool. They don’t seem to understand that it is a game. Yet they want to win the game without playing the game. And as in every game, there are rules. They want something for nothing, and when they don’t get it, they blame the woman. The men I pay attention to are the one who take care of themselves. They don’t have to be Pierce Brosnan or Mr. Universe, in fact, their physical look means nothing to me, it’s how they respect themselves, how they take care of their bodies and their appearance. Because if they respect themselves, they’ll respect me. A man who respects his appearance tells me he is serious about moving forward. A man who doesn’t tells me that he’s just doing it for sex or that he’s not serious enough about it to even look presentable in order to compliment all the effort I put into looking good. But so often I see a woman who is beautifully dressed walking beside a guy who looks like a middle school dropout in his baggy faded jeans and T-shirt.
J says
You are one done messed-up individual me thinks. What you have just tried to say? makes absolutely no sense, and is quite irrelevant. You say you pay attention to those who take care of themselves, then you contradict yourself directly by saying physical looks mean nothing to you. You ridicule men for being “uncool” according to you, then bitch because girls way the hell hotter than you are going out with those you think are “uncool”. What you are is jealous, self-centered, controlling, and extremely confused. Men must avoid you like the plague, because you’re a relic and don’t even realize. It’s no wonder many gen x women were skipped over, many of the millennials were skipped over…..these girls just plain suck at everything besides being a stupid cant. They were raised by immorality television and big business.
ted says
Some men do, but how do you grow or change over the couple hours that a woman will give you?
That’s the problem in Seattle. Being 9/10 of what the women claim they want and Being willing to work on that last tenth isn’t enough.
Spoiled us really the word for it. Nobody it’s perfect, but I’ve met women that are charitably 6s and being smart, good looking, kind, respectful and funny isn’t enough to get a second date.
If they were 10s, I could understand it, but if their dating experience is so bad that they have to state that dick picks aren’t OK, perhaps settling for only 90% of what they’re wanting for is a good idea.
AI says
Give me a break. Here’s a suggestion. No dating coaches. No online profiles. No speed dating. Go about your lives guys. Get involved in things that will broaden your social circle. That’s when you will meet someone. The women online ARE selfish, perfectionist idiots!!
Cam says
I agree. Back to the basics works. It’s a longer investment but time well spent.
J says
Something must be wrong with James, because he should be tearing the countryside apart. In zoo tycoon, the animals go right nuts when they don’t have a suitable mate. The terror this man has undergone is horrific and all should show some sympathy. Dude prolly has gynophobia, a common, but never-talked about deal ex: (see this article).
J says
Now let me talk about how well James does with making friends in general. Wait, I can’t, it was never mentioned. Many guys are very friendly, very cool, make guy friends very easily. Why? Because it’s normal. When you ask a group of ladies (any group) if a guy can be just friends with them, they shout and scream a resounding….”NO”. That right there should be explored first before skipping ahead to anything. If women are indeed wanting no type of friendship with guys, and want to somehow launch right into romanticism, then we have ourselves a very unworkable climate, which is no doubt the situation in Seattle. There will never be an adequate foundation of general trust between the sexes when things are that incredibly one-sided and divided. If James makes guy friends without effort, but fails with 100% of women, sometimes trying his arse off, where now is the common denominator?
Tron Swanson says
Sooner or later, many of us hear what Evan said to James: if you really want to get this or that, you have to change who you are. Well, I like being me, and I value it over any external goals. I don’t blame men or women for choosing to be alone over living a lie–or compromising in ways that make them uncomfortable.
Two things:
1. If James was the only guy out there who was expressing frustration with this stuff, I could see how Evan could write him off. But this is a phenomenon that’s gaining speed every day. “Nothing’s wrong with the way things are, the problem is you” isn’t quite as convincing when “you” refers to a large number of guys, and not just a few outliers.
2. Can we please stop using code-phrases like “Don’t be a doormat” and “Women want nice guys, but with balls”? Look at the women-related advice generally given to men, Evan’s included, and you’ll see that their answers actually involve being more of a doormat: changing into something the woman approves of, apologizing a lot, putting in more effort than the woman does, and so on. If women are looking for a man with backbone, well, James shouldn’t change a thing, because he’s sticking to his guns and refusing to be blamed. If women really wanted nice guys with balls, well, us bitter nice guys should definitely qualify, because we’re willing to speak the truth about how we feel, but we’re still polite about it.
Let’s be honest, though…that isn’t what women usually want. They want a man they’re physically attracted to, and who’s successful/ambitious enough to appeal to their desire for status. If they can find a guy like that who’s also nice, they’ll take him, but it’s strictly a secondary concern. They’re perfectly willing to lie about how good and enlightened he actually is. How many of us know women who said that they were looking for a more “sensitive” and “modern” guy, only to marry a manners-lacking knucklehead with height and money? And then they talk about how “enlightened” their husband is while he slops food all over the table…
Marika says
Tron
Where does Evan ever say to be a doormat (for either gender)? Where did he say men should apologize for things just for the sake of it, or if they’ve done nothing wrong? He’s pretty big on boundaries in general, in my view.
I’m sorry, but I’ve read many of your comments and you don’t come across as a nice guy, you come across as a victim. You claim to be happy with yourself, so why all the whinging? You say you don’t date, but you keep visiting a blog site that’s all about dating and making variations of this exact same comment over and over. Why? Attention seeking?
Whinging and being a victim is attractive to no one. And no experienced coach will buy into your victim mentality.
Tron Swanson says
Are men not allowed to be victims in this area? Honest question, here. I know, I know…men are taught to be strong and not look weak. But I’ve never been one for gender roles. Women frequently proclaim their victimhood–and justifiably so, in many instances–so why can’t men do the same? For the record, I’m not trying to be attractive, I’m trying to be honest.
And, no, Evan doesn’t say to be a doormat, but he tends to give men advice that makes them act in a more agreeable way, as opposed to a more resolute one. Now, as previously established, I’m not one for gender roles, and I think that members of either gender should act however they want. But to argue that men should be open to changing in ways that women want us to change, while simultaneously claiming that women want men with a backbone, well…!
As for why I’m here…sadly, this stuff is relevant to my life, and I’m trying to figure out if I can succeed without compromising too much.
Evan Marc Katz says
Tron, briefly:
Good advice is good advice.
If there is no inherent contradiction in telling a smart, strong, successful woman to be warm, appreciative, supportive, and accepting of her partner (and there’s not) why do you see an inherent contradiction in telling a nice guy to grow a pair, plan, pay, make the first move, have opinions, communicate directly and STILL be a generous, loyal, agreeable partner?
My wife and I both have these qualities, which is why our marriage works. Like Karl, I was a “nice guy.” Didn’t get laid until college. Struggled financially and emotionally in my 20’s. But I had enough confidence (and the willingness to learn from my experience) to date enough to turn it into an actual career telling other people how to do it. For the first five years (out of 14), I also helped men. But since only 20% of my readers were men, I turned my focus to the gender that was more willing to ask for help and pay for it. So forgive me if I don’t have all that much sympathy for men (or women) who complain about the opposite sex, drop out of finding love, but still bitch and moan on my blog.
If you’re going to “go your own way,” then go. If you’re going to stay, might as well take notes and learn something.
Tron Swanson says
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Evan.
From what you just listed, it sounds like you’re encouraging women to be more traditionally feminine in certain areas, while encouraging men to somehow walk the line between being traditionally masculine (“grow a pair” and do all the courting stuff) and being modern and enlightened (you just mention “agreeable” in that particular comment, but based on past comments, you tend to have very modern attitudes about this stuff–which I applaud, by the way.)
With all due respect, I think that you’re being as unrealistic as some of your clients. It’s the classic “fried ice.” A woman wants a stable provider…who’s also exciting! A really nice guy…who doesn’t take crap from anyone! For the most part, men like that don’t exist outside of romance novels and made-for-women TV shows. Telling men to be that way won’t generally work.
From what I can gather, you primarily help career-driven single women. All they need to do is, as you said, act more warm and appreciative and supportive. And I believe you’re right about that. Reasonable men won’t care that women have careers now, and are more independent than they used to be. But the opposite isn’t true. While reasonable men aren’t bothered by women’s modern, more masculine traits, women are very much bothered by men’s modern, more feminine traits. I personally believe that’s why “nice guys” are so vilified. Now, I don’t think those traits are really masculine or feminine at all–just human. But they’ve traditionally been associated with one gender or the other.
So, to reiterate, that’s why this “Women want a nice guy–but with a backbone!” thing is a sham. All women have to do to attract men is make themselves a teensy bit less hostile. Whereas men are expected to walk an impossible line between two radical extremes.
Evan Marc Katz says
Yeah, you haven’t learned anything here. Sorry about that.
Tron Swanson says
I’ve learned quite a bit, actually; we simply don’t agree in certain areas. Surely there’s nothing wrong with that?
For the record, Evan, I think that you’re one of the most even-handed advice people out there. I’m used to seeing advice that’s pro-female regardless of the details, whereas you’re extremely balanced much of the time, and willing to speak uncomfortable truths. It’s a breath of fresh air. But, in other areas, I feel like your philosophy is contradicting itself. Just my opinion, of course.
Evan Marc Katz says
You’re entitled to your opinion. There have been over 100,000 comments approved on this blog. Certainly not all of them agreed with me on everything.
Karl R says
Tron Swanson said:
“Sooner or later, many of us hear what Evan said to James: if you really want to get this or that, you have to change who you are. Well, I like being me, and I value it over any external goals. I don’t blame men or women for choosing to be alone over living a lie—or compromising in ways that make them uncomfortable.”
So, at your workplace, when your boss wants you to learn some job skills, do you refuse? Do you say you like being you? That you’d rather be unskilled, rather than living a lie? That learning a job skill compromises you in ways that make you uncomfortable?
Go ahead. Try that at work. It doesn’t work any better in the dating world.
Tron Swanson said:
“‘Nothing’s wrong with the way things are, the problem is you’ isn’t quite as convincing when ‘you’ refers to a large number of guys, and not just a few outliers.”
It’s not just a couple guys. It’s probably a couple million guys.
Which means 90% of single guys are not having a problem. So maybe the couple million who are having a problem should swallow your wounded pride and learn something from the tens of millions of guys who are doing a bit better than you.
I’m a lifelong nerd, and I’m doing better than you.
Tron Swanson said:
“Look at the women-related advice generally given to men, Evan’s included, and you’ll see that their answers actually involve being more of a doormat: changing into something the woman approves of, apologizing a lot, putting in more effort than the woman does, and so on.”
Somehow you’ve managed to contort “Take the initiative,” into “Put in more effort than the woman does.” If I followed instructions that poorly, I would have ended up two states away this evening, instead of back at my house.
Be confident. (Better yet, be cocky.) Find something you love and become good at it. Take the initiative. Stand out from the crowd. Ask more women out. Ask out some women you might have previously overlooked. Have some balls. Don’t give up on dating after a few setbacks.
Which part of that sounds like being a doormat?
Tron Swanson said:
“If women really wanted nice guys with balls, well, us bitter nice guys should definitely qualify, because we’re willing to speak the truth about how we feel, but we’re still polite about it.”
How much balls does it take to whine about life being unfair? My elementary school nieces have mastered that technique.
I was one of those frustrated, so-called “nice guys” back in my teens and early twenties. I managed to become vastly more skilled at dating without compromising my principals, becoming a doormat, contorting myself into what women said they wanted, apologizing profusely, or being untrue to myself.
I did have to change, however. Learn a few skills.
Katie says
Karl. You’re fuckin’ awesome.
Tron Swanson says
Karl,
I’m sorry–for some reason, this site never lets me copy/paste, so I won’t be able to quote you directly. Also, I’m way too lazy to type out what you said, so I’ll just sort of list it in order.
In regards to my workplace, and the idea of learning skills: first of all, I don’t really have a boss or a workplace. But I can tell you that I’ve walked away from clients when I didn’t like what they wanted me to do. That said, I feel like I’ve turned two pages at once. At what point, exactly, did we start talking about “skills” or “improvements”? I’m talking about identity, and identity just is, it can’t be improved on. Are you telling me that if a man or a woman has a trait that they value, but the other gender doesn’t like it, they aren’t “improving” themselves if they don’t change?
Also, what do working and relationships have in common? It’s bad enough that we have to put up with crap to get money; why would I want that sort of mentality infecting my personal life?
In regards to the idea that you’re a lifelong nerd who’s doing better than me: well, first of all, I don’t judge myself based on my success with women. That sort of thinking just isn’t healthy. I may only be interested in sex, but I’d never limit my identity that way. So, yes, you’re better at relationships than me, and some other guy is doing better at collecting stamps than me. Hooray for both of you for spending a lot of time and money and effort on things I’m not terribly interested in.
Now, the 90% of single men doing just fine…well, there’s no point in arguing about that, as there’s no way to prove these things. But I personally think I’m right. If I’m wrong, hey, the number of guys like me will shrink, and you’ll forget all about us. But, from the way that you and certain others are reacting, it’s almost as if you’re worried that we’re part of a growing trend…
In regards to your initiative comments: I’m not confident, and I have no desire to be cocky, as I find that sort of behavior extremely annoying. I’m a pretty mild, low-key guy. I’m also very cautious and protective of my feelings (and time and effort and money). I’ve never asked a woman out and have no desire to. Despite this, I’ve had girlfriends and FWBs, and some of them tried to make me more traditionally masculine, but it never took. I like being the way I am.
In regards to me complaining about fairness: wait, I’m confused. You’re saying that it isn’t masculine to complain, and you’re comparing me to girls. Is that supposed to be an insult? I thought that I was supposed to be the misogynist here, not you. Maybe you’re reading my lines by mistake?
Life is definitely unfair…and yet, we’ve taken great pains to make it fairer. Women built a whole movement based on that. Why not try to make life fair for men, as well?
Also, your comments are very thorough and detailed, but your constant use of italics is slightly distracting.
Karl R says
Tron Swanson,
According to your last post…
You’re not terribly interested in dating.
You don’t spend time on relationships.
You don’t put effort into relationships.
You’re not confident.
You’re cautious and afraid to get your feelings hurt.
You’ve never asked a woman out, nor do you want to.
You don’t want to learn dating or relationship skills.
The problem is you. And you’ve presented that case far more convincingly than I could.
Bitter guys aren’t a growing trend. It’s the whining that’s a growing trend. So if you’re going to whine, at least put the blame where it belongs … on your own minimal efforts.
Marika says
Tron,
I get it. The women’s liberation movement made life better for women and now some people like you feel it went too far the other way and now life is less fair for men.
But: your idea of building a movement & making life fairer for men is to complain about how unfair your life is over and over on a dating blog?
If you see aspects of life that are unfair for men, go ahead and write to parliament/Congress (sorry, not sure of the correct terminology in America), form an action group, march on Washington, contact the media. Those are the kinds of thing that are most likely to result in social change.
I feel though that sadly you wouldn’t like that, though, as:
a. it would mean taking action, which you’ve made it clear you don’t like to do (any form of action or skill development in your mind seems to equate to changing your very identity), and
b. people who are addicted to whinging actually don’t like things to change because then they have nothing to whinge about.
Don’t claim you’re here to make life better for men if you take no action to do so. If you just want attention & an audience for your victimhood, please clue us in so I can take action by stopping giving that to you.
Tron Swanson says
I don’t like the concept of dating, and I’m no longer a relationship guy–though I used to want a relationship. Neither of those things are my “fault,” they’re simply how I am. You might as well say it’s my fault for having the color of eyes that I do. Now, do those things make it an uphill battle for me? Yes, absolutely. I’m not claiming otherwise.
But the other things you mentioned–I’m cautious, I’m not confident, I don’t enjoy pursuing women–well, that’s all gender role stuff. Imagine that you were talking to a career woman in the late sixties or early seventies. She doesn’t want to give up her career, but it’s making it harder for her to find a husband. She couldn’t be a traditional woman if she tried, so she’s going through this because she doesn’t fit the old gender role for women…but would you really say that it’s her fault, as opposed to the fault of a bunch of guys with backwards ideas?
Women liberated themselves from oppressive gender roles, and now it’s our turn. Some men are macho, some men are the opposite, and most are in-between. I look forward to the day when men can be themselves–and be accepted. Unfortunately, at this point, it’s still an unsettling idea for many.
As for my minimal effort: I’m a big risk/reward guy, and I don’t see women as being worth the risk, for the most part.
Nissa says
Very well said Karl. Most of the ‘nice guys’ I’ve met weren’t so nice after you got to know them. They were often low confidence or passive aggressive. Now, I’ll grant you that there are women like that too, but as I’m not dating them (and frankly don’t tend to be very close friends with them) that’s a non issue for me.
A man’s willingness to take the initiative and be confident is a number one priority for me. It even ranks over most status markers of looks, income and location.
Marika says
And PS, Tron, in the post just before this one (popped up in a pop up box when I was reading this one, so I read it next) Evan gives a woman almost the exact advice that he gives ‘James’ about changing yourself, not changing men.
Evan, like all coaches, tells everyone who comes to him for advice that you can only change yourself. That will remain the same no matter how many men join the MGTOW community and no matter how many women rail against how terrible men are. Because that’s the truth. When you fully embrace the idea that you are the only one who’s responsible for how your life is, the experiences you’ve had with women, etc, it’s freeing. It makes you feel the power that you are clearly longing to feel. People buying into how terrible it all is with you will continue to make you feel powerless and victimy.
I’m yet to fully embody this concept myself, but I get the concept & I’m making changes. I really hope you’ll get out of your poor me mentality one day. It’s not a good place to be.
Ted says
BS Marika. Unless you’re seriously suggesting something illegal, the bottom line here is that it takes two people to have a relationship of any sorts.
Being me hasn’t worked, I’ve gotten a ton of sexual harassment over the years and it’s never translated into a second date. Not even once. I’m an attractive man, I’m smart and well educated, I’m funny and I genuinely care about the women around me. On paper, I’m everything except rich and outgoing.
Typical dates last multiple hours and there’s usually plenty of laughing and connecting going on.
Any reasonable person would realize that I’m worth at least a second date. But, men will give me second dates and women won’t.
That’s more or less typical of the area. Women have unrealistic expectations and by the time they realize that they aren’t within the realm of possibility, it’s basically too late to adjust. There’s no shortage of good guys out there that are willing to settle for a woman that’s only quite good or amazing rather than perfect, but somehow we’re the ones that are the problem and not the snobby women that can’t even be bothered to say what their standards are.
Bottom line here is that blaming the men is rather ridiculous. Virtually all the responsibility falls on men’s shoulders to make something happen. At some point, women do need to realize that they have to contribute something to the process other than being gatekeepers for what is in many cases not that great a garden.
This article was pretty much a pointless exercise in victim blaming. Nothing in it provides any sort of hope or insight into what James ought to be doing to find a glimmer of hope. I know that I’m continuing to try in spite of the overwhelming evidence being that women around here are self-centered and stuck up. I’d love to meet women that are actually down to earth, but even the ones that claim to be aren’t.
I know there’s somebody out there that would genuinely be happy to have me and somebody that I’d be fortunate to be with, but there’s so many stuck up women that feel entitled to waste my time that I might not actually find any of them while I’m still young enough to have kids.
Marika says
Ted
If you had a child who was struggling to keep friends, would you blame all the other kids, the school, society as a whole? Or would you maybe see what was going on with how the child was presenting him or herself? Maybe teach them some skills?
I have a lot of dates that go nowhere. That’s dating. I’m sure you’re attractive etc , but if you never, ever get a second date, where other people do, are you sure there’s nothing you could stand to improve? Is it definitely everyone else’s fault?
Not only rich, outgoing guys are getting married.
So, you can look into what you can change, learn new skills, pick different women, or whinge and play the victim. What sounds more reasonable & empowering?
Ted says
Marika, trying to change is pointless if you don’t have a destination.
I don’t mind changing and self-improvement, but doing it without any particular aim is pointless and damaging.
And it depends a great deal on having people available that are honest about what they want. I’m almost exactly what women around here claim to want, do at least a couple should want me enough add is for a second date.
That’s largely why the advice to James is so dumb. Suggesting change based upon inference and without some ideas about what to change is dehumanizing and rather offensive.
What’s more, I don’t have this problem with men. Which leads me to the conclusion that it’s probably not more.
Karl R says
Ted said:
“There’s no shortage of good guys out there that are willing to settle for a woman that’s only quite good or amazing rather than perfect, but somehow we’re the ones that are the problem and not the snobby women that can’t even be bothered to say what their standards are.”
A few hours earlier (in two other posts), you said that you’re a man who is “uncomfortably close to 40 years at this point”, looking for a woman “in her early 30s“. If you’re unwilling to “settle” for a woman that’s “quite good or amazing”, just because she’s close to your own age (or even a bit older), then your pickiness is clearly part of your problem.
Just counting the women who got 3 or more dates, I dated women from 27 to 55 when I was 36 to 39. I think one was in her early 30s.
Ted said:
“I’m an attractive man, I’m smart and well educated, I’m funny and I genuinely care about the women around me. On paper, I’m everything except rich and outgoing.”
So, on paper, you’ve got me beat in at least two areas (attractive and well educated), probably several more than that. I probably have you beat in one (outgoing). You can’t get a second date. If I met a woman in real life (which I preferred), my odds of getting the second date were 80%. (Of the other 20%, I was the one who didn’t want the second date over half the time.)
I can name one thing that did not change during the entire time I was dating.
Women.
Collectively, their expectations (whether unrealistic or not) stayed exactly the same. The number of self-centered, entitled and stuck up women stayed exactly the same. The number of down to earth women stayed exactly the same.
And I expect all of those things to stay the same until you and I die.
When I was 36-39, I dated five women for multiple months, including the one who eventually became my wife. Since you’re much better than me on paper, and you’re convinced that women are the problem, please explain why I was doing so much better than you.
Ted says
Karl, that’s the million dollar question.
I know that somewhere out there is at least one woman that’s willing to “settle” for me. The issue it’s figuring out where they are.
And I’m not opposed to growing or change either. It’s just that you have to have a target and I’m almost exactly the guy that women whine about not being able to find. So, how do you change or fix something that has no obvious problems?
I don’t have this trouble with men. Finding men that are willing to date me isn’t an issue. No real difference there as I treat anybody that’s interested in me respectfully.
And historically, I’ve no shortage of women me treating me like meat. I specifically have a shortage off women that see me as a human that has feelings.
Karl R says
Ted,
I have three male bisexual friends that I’ve known since college. Two have been in gay relationships for 25 and 20 years. The third just got engaged to his boyfriend.
Since you have an easier time getting boyfriends, have you considered this as a possibility?
Ted asked:
“historically, I’ve no shortage of women me treating me like meat. I specifically have a shortage off women that see me as a human that has feelings.”
“I’m almost exactly the guy that women whine about not being able to find. So, how do you change or fix something that has no obvious problems?”
Actually, this is a relatively common problem, but it’s usually expressed by women. Evan has addressed it in various forms throughout the years.
You need to date more women, but be quicker about getting rid of the bad ones (the ones who just see you as meat).
There may also be an issue with the kind of women you most frequently run across. You may not be socializing in the circles where there are lots of women who are looking for something exactly like you.
Ted says
Basically, having kids is important to me and another man can’t give that to me.
I shouldn’t have to suffer while women whine about no good men being left. Anyways, since the women here are so terrible, I’m looking elsewhere.
Marika says
Tron
I’ve noticed that no matter what anyone says or any questions you get asked that may challenge your assumptions, or any tips / strategies provided to you, you come back to the same ‘woe is me’ mantra.
So I’m going to assume that rather than being here to learn, grow, or engage in useful discussion, you’re here to whine. I’m not playing into that anymore. You’re an adult, it’s not healthy.
All the best.
Tron Swanson says
You’re two-thirds correct. I’m here to learn and engage in useful discussion, but I’m not here to change (or “grow,” as you said). But, yes, I’m also here to complain. I think that complaining is extremely healthy for both genders, because it’s honest and direct. Now, it’s not good to focus too much on the negative, which is why I don’t worry about this stuff too much. But I do need to think about it from time to time, both for emotional reasons and to figure out better ways of getting sex.
Sally Teapot says
@ Ted
I’ve only read your last comment so don’t know if you’ve addressed this here or on another thread(s).
You’re bisexual. Nothing wrong with that but I suspect many straight women won’t feel comfortable with that. Do they know you’re bisexual before you meet or do you tell them during the date? The vast majority of straight women want to settle down with a straight man. Seems that this is the issue you’re refusing to acknowledge.
Lots of dating sites let people put their sexual orientation, that way people shouldn’t get tricked if someone is honest upfront.
Emily, the original says
Sally,
You’re bisexual. Nothing wrong with that but I suspect many straight women won’t feel comfortable with that.
Not to sound crass, but they’ll be worried, as I heard someone put it once, that you’re on the “bi now, gay later” plan. It will make them worried about investing for the long term.
Ted says
It doesn’t progress far enough for it to come up. I have had that up previously, but I can’t specify bisexual looking for women, so it doesn’t really work.
I’m also a bit hesitant since discrimination is still a problem. I got fired from ups because my coworkers wouldn’t work with a queer.
And realistically, I’m not gay. I wouldn’t be putting up with this nonsense at all if I were.
phil says
Dating coach?
I don’t think a dating coach is necessary. As a male unfortunately divorced for 5 yrs. now & in my early 60’s, this much is extremely clear. If women consider you tall, confident, & can portray an image of power & status, they will fawn over you, you can do no wrong, they desire you. If however, you are average ht. or heaven forbid shorter than average, not clearly an alpha, & ladies do not perceive you as a highly influential man, there is very little you can do to appeal to attractive ladies. What you have read, how intelligent you may be, cultures you have experienced in your travel, & being a decent, sincere person, will count for almost not a thing. I know this from experience, from hard knocks, from being perceived as almost invisible. There isn’t anything a dating coach can do about this reality.
Cam says
That is the truest thing about women I have ever heard. But the problem is after you have attracted that kind of women you dump her for another one. Then after doing this a couple more times it gets boring. Then you take a long break and don’t want to be around women. I can only say that from experience. Then some years later a friend said that there’s women in other countries. Wow! Bingo a lite went on so I closed the door on my business and traveled for 2 and a half years. Went to 7 countries. After seeing 30,000 girls I met one when my motorcycle lost a nut on the swing arm. She is a knockout and she said there’s my top gun.
Eric says
Every woman I was ever interested in rejected me in favor of a man who did one of the following:
1. Cheated on them
2. Became hooked on drugs
3. Physically or mentally abused them
4. All of the above
Me? I’ve since been in a steady, stable, happy relationship for nearly two decades now. The women who rejected me are divorced with kids who now have broken families and other issues.
It’s interesting the kind of man some women will accept into their life only to have that person destroy said life. I often wonder what they didn’t see in me that they did see in the abusive men.
Nick says
Same here Eric. I hope I can eventually say Im happily married someday too.
DeeGee says
Eric said: “Every woman I was ever interested in rejected me in favor of a man who …”
Same here. And many times it is number 4.
For example, one of the women that I know that I want to date and she has always been on the fence, just recently went back to her ex who she originally left because he cheated on her. He is an unemployed drug addict with incurable STIs, who cheated on her with another woman after only a few months of dating. He also has an ex wife with kids who he cheated on multiple times until she kicked him out a couple of years ago. So after her choosing him over me, I will never consider dating her in the future no matter what she says or does. There are consequences to her choices.
The thing is, I always see guys who are players and cheaters and drug addicts and alcoholics getting woman after woman after woman. They are never single. Yet good guys will spend decades trying to find a woman who will even date them.
And this is nothing new. Look back on writings from philosophers and sociologists from 2000 years ago or even 4000 years ago, and they also say that trying to find a virtuous woman is almost impossible, that they are like rarities.
Personally, I have had to just move on from all of this, and accept that this is just how all women are wired, and accept that I will most likely be single for the rest of my life.
bob says
It’s really sad to see all these men struggling with this. Don’t date anymore. Simple as that. Its a massive headache and a game that is played by soul sucking vampires that want to take your soul, control you, and eventually take your children from you and all your money. Cause it’s about themselves. That is all they care about. They do not care about you. Even if they feel love for you, that is a trick on their minds. Don’t even bother anymore fellas. Call a prostitute. At least they know what they are.
Bebble Borg says
I fully believe women no matter where they live in today’s time ARE HORRIBLE …I won’t even waste my precious time in life to ” find” someone suitable for myself because I’ve already had enough bad experiences ..I do not consider myself a bad person but I was treated as such for so long …and yes I endured it so it’s partly my own fault for allowing negative things to continue …however it has set a path for me in conclusively considering that I will never “date ” or become physically or emotionally involved with a women EVER again …”I’d rather die a lonely but happy man than an unhappy man”who has wasted his life with a person or trying to pursue a person with no purpose for then other than to collect the money in the end ….sorry kids the truth kinda sucks but …that’s what happens when some of us men get older we think with our head ” that’s attached to our neck ” not the other one that gets us nowhere ….the moral of this is I’ve tryd all different types of approach with women and have had very long relationships that end up doing nothing but wasting time … I mean way too much too myself then to keep on walking the same path or bend over backwards for the devil …otherwise known as women …can’t say they are all like that but the ones I have meet always seem to be right there next to Hades …thanks for reading hope everyone learns from this dummy …everyone isn’t always meant to “be with another” sometimes like in my case it’s much more rewarding to go threw life for myself ,yes I am referring to selfishness we all should have a little more ..I respect my life and my privacy so much that I look at the opp sex and just think it will be a cold day in H*ll before you would ever be with me . Living is learning …good luck to the gentleman who are out there that want to be with a female …that want to make it work it’s a tough road …and that my friends is why I took a detour and made my own way ….not depressed nor am I trying to oppress any one just giving a brief history lesson on what we think we want don’t always turn out to be what we wanted …go day all …may the good Lord above abolish all that is unpure the devil lives in everyone
Nick says
The Venn diagram is a brilliant way of describing a good relationship. Unfortunately, it’s hard to find a woman who’ll do their part in a relationship. On first dates, they’ll literally expect the guy to do all the talking and lay all the groundwork. Women have to work just as hard to keep men around. I have some respect for you, Evan, because you tell women to cater to men too. Most gurus only tell men to do what appeals to women, making the relationship thing one-sided. Look at Marni, Corey Wayne,etc.
Betterman says
I read these blogs whenever I get lonely.
I read the comments from the men who find the whole mess of modern relationships so depressing and one sided that they give up.
I read the comments from the women who obviously haven’t a clue what dating is like for a man.
I read the comments from the white knights who knee jerk attack anything men say in a fruitless appeal to women. So ingrained in their mental state they don’t even know they are doing it, or how much they must hate themselves for it.
I read all this and feel better about the choice I made 17 years ago to avoid women. In a month I’ll be 40, I’m going to go on a 500 mile bike ride then do some rock climbing. I can do this because I’ve avoided the major expense that dating and women are.
I just want to remind women that men spend a lot of money dating women, when is the last time you spent a months pay on a man you just met only to have him ghost you ?
Karl R says
Bettterman,
Let me start with a quick question, is your moniker intended to be verbal irony, or is intended to be immodest?
In either case, it may provide a clue as to why you struggled with women. Immodesty rarely goes over well, especially as a first impression. And self-deprecating humor tends to backfire as a first impression also.
When meeting a woman, you really want to start off being confident (or even cocky) without being immodest. And save the self-deprecating humor until you’ve convinced the woman that you’re awesome. That way it will seem like humor, rather than low self-esteem.
Betterman said:
“I read the comments from the white knights who knee jerk attack anything men say in a fruitless appeal to women.”
Let me guess … you think Evan and I are two of the white knights.
Your statement is wrong on three accounts:
1. We go after anyone who blames the opposite sex for their dating troubles. Since there are roughly equal numbers of men and women who do this, we go after them equally.
2. When I challenge your statements, it’s not an appeal to women … unless I decide to use your post as an example to your female counterparts as to why that attitude doesn’t work.
To the best of my knowledge, none of the women I’ve dated have ever read this blog. My wife certainly hasn’t.
3. The attitude that Evan and I espouse (that each man/woman is responsible for his/her own dating success) hasn’t been fruitless. We’re both married.
Betterman said:
“I read all this and feel better about the choice I made 17 years ago to avoid women. “
And you succeeded in avoiding women. Very predictable results.
Ladies, if you decide to avoid men, you will have similar results as Betterman. If you decide to post about your decision on a site like this, the men will (on average) feel about the same way toward you as you feel toward Betterman.
(I suspect that his post has filled you with an overwhelming sense of “meh”, but I could just be projecting.)
Betterman asked:
“I just want to remind women that men spend a lot of money dating women, when is the last time you spent a months pay on a man you just met only to have him ghost you?”
You shouldn’t be spending that much money on a woman you just met.
The most I ever spent on a woman who ghosted was $60-$80 (total), and we dated for six weeks before she disappeared. (I suppose you could also add the bottle of wine we consumed, but I got that as a gift, so it cost me nothing.)
I spent less money on dates, but was more creative about where I took the lady and what we did.
Dave says
Evan – I respect what you wrote here. Unlike ‘James’ I don’t see women as shallow or fickle – it just transcends that also here in the UK, the ones that are like that are unfortunately too often dotted amongst the more understanding members of the opposite sex and we end up left to find out the hard way which ones are which.
I don’t do ‘the bad worker blaming his tools’ act as that chap has done I might still be yet to learn what creates the most likely spark. James was unwilling to be helped but I am just trying to decipher a common fault I could have in attracting.
Jon Conarton says
Regarding you story about the it guy from. Seattle…I think your wrong…this guy has a point about women in this country…and as a man who is now divorced after 19 of marriage I could not stop seeing the same type of women over and over again here….I have traveled in Ukraine extensively in the past 3 years…and I’m now engaged to an incredible woman from Kiev….Its easy to see the difference between us and them as it were…if you go to o POF dating site where ever you live in this country you can read the profiles of thousands if woman and more 70 % of them say the same things over and over. They are looking for mister right…they have list of qualities they won’t tolerate in a man…they spell out the kind of man that can contact them and on and on…
Now if you go to dating sites in Ukraine… example Elena’s models.com the profiles read much differently…most all of them…above 90% say things like this…” I wan to look beautiful for my husband” ” I want to take care of my family and make a cosy home” “I want to give my love and affection to him ” I want to cook tasty meals and enjoy spending time with my man” and many more upbeat and supportive comments….but the one most often listed part of a Ukrainian woman’s dating profile will say something like this..” I am a woman and I need a man to be a man so I can be weak in his arms” and it’s true… feminism hasn’t destroyed women in the eastern block and I dated 3 and they all would have made great wives…I chose the one I did because she was the most feminine and kind hearted woman I have ever met….the MGTOW movement is real here and I for one would not waste time on the culture of women here…you have more choices fellas…take a look and you will see…
Evan Marc Katz says
Then go your own way and stop trollong sites for women. Thanks.
Jon Conarton says
That’s the plan…sir….and if you read my comment you would see I’m now engaged and will be married in the spring… And it’s nit trolling…it’s just looking around a little just like many of your clients..
DeeGee says
Jon Conarton said: “this guy has a point about women in this country”
Sorry but I don’t buy your perspective on this. Women are essentially the same world wide, as are men. I have never seen any statistics where Ukrainian couples stay in marriages longer than Western couples, or Filipino, or anywhere else. In fact when googling it, the statistics at hopesandfears.com for one example said the highest rates for couples staying together was Rome Italy, followed by Ottawa Canada, then Paris France, New York USA, Sydney Australia, Mexico City, and on and on. So that doesn’t line up with your comment.
Marika says
I agree with you, DeeGee that there is no utopian place where women are thin, pretty and submissive and men are all 6 feet tall, chivalrous and good with their hands. It’s pure fantasy and a way of trying to ignore the realities both of dating and your own flaws / personal development needs as they relate to dating. It’s not me, it’s American/ western women. I’ll move to Russia where women will appreciate me and all will be fine! Ahhh, no.
The divorce rate/ people staying together stat you used is open to a lot of criticism though. Many of the places you mentioned have a high proportion of Catholics. Growing up Catholic and being married in the Catholic Church, there are numerous reasons people ‘stay together’ beyond happiness and love.
Jon Conarton says
I didn’t say anything about longevity of marriage. I commented on the original post regarding the story about the guy from Seattle….my point was that the women here are much different in general attitude towards dating and how they perceive men…I for one have personally attended socials put on by 2 big national dating sites….and the hand full of above average looking women had very specific agendas and spoke to the men like they were interviewing us like we were applying for a job…! I’m sick of meeting women here who think that men owe them something…if the tables were turned and men started asking women ” what can you do for me” I think the sh.t would hit the fan. Before any of you doubt what im saying about Ukrainian women. I suggest like me you do some traveling there as Ive done… Meet some Slavic girls and see for yourselves the dramatic difference….I for one am done with American women and their feminist agendas….they say they want husbands but what they really want are men who will follow their orders and live under their think…been there done that in a 20 year marriage….go to ukraine first… experience it..then comment…but until then….
DeeGee says
Jon Conarton said: “… my point was that the women here are much different in general attitude towards dating and how they perceive men …”
People, including women, are the same everywhere.
I have heard of just as many elitist and gold-digger stories about European women as I have about American women.
Divorce rates are consistently high across most of the world, inferring that marriage relationships are the same worldwide.
I know a few men who have taken “mail order brides” from a number of countries, and they are all divorced now, once the women understood divorce laws in Canada and how they are entitled to 50%+ of everything the men owned.
I know a number of men who have also moved to countries such as the Philippines, in order to marry women that they claimed were “better” (read “more subservient”) than American women.
I personally think that you have the reasoning or cause-and-effect wrong. Let me give you an example.
If you were a multimillionaire in any western country, you would have a much wider choice of women, and you would be treated differently by them (sorry ladies if you disagree with this but it is the truth, money talks, and most women listen).
Now let’s say that your net worth is only $300k US. That doesn’t impress ladies too much in western countries (cue the Shania Twain song “That Don’t Impress Me Much”).
Now move to the Philippines with that $300k US (about a 10:1 cost of living)…
That $300k now makes you a multi-millionaire in the Philippines worth $3+ million dollars.
Your choices including choice of women changes dramatically.
The women will of course treat you different because you are a multi-millionaire, same as if you were a multi-millionaire here.
Didn’t you ever wonder why those women in other countries who sign up to be mail-order brides are not satisfied with the men in their own country?
Marika says
Are we allowed to disagree with you if we have lived & worked in Eastern Europe…? If so, put me down as disagreeing with your assessment of Eastern European women. I got to hear the side you don’t, what they really think of men & dating, behind closed doors.
You’d do far better in dating, as we all would, if you work on yourself rather than blaming the opposite sex.
(If you read through everything properly, Evan made up the Seattle bit!).
Bill says
Well back in the old days any man that was very seriously looking to meet a good woman really had no trouble at all since real love did come very easy at that time which today unfortunately is a very different story. The times today have really changed and so have the women.
FG says
Having dated women of sevveral nationalities, there are differences. At least in the older age group. In the younger crowd (20s and 30s), possible propagation of decadence may have taken place. Not an affirmation. Even in France, where the mindset had always been somewhat moe oh-la-la then in most other countries, there were social rules and unspoken accords that have, of course, nwo mostly abated.
Marriage is mostly not about happiness. It is about companionship. It will be impossible for most any couple to remain happy all the time. Ups and downs, and whatever life throws at you. And any long-term marriage couple will confirm that. Before hedonistic pursuit struck, and feeble fluff mindsets destroyed commitment, people worked harder at it!
James Bond says
Next time just offer to buy him a plane ticket.
He wont need to change a damn thing..
Jon says
I appreciate your statements about MGTOW Evan. I’ve read just about all of them. What is your first piece of advice to a guy just stepping out of MGTOW? I’m at ground zero, here.
john says
Oh, I don’t believe all women are fickle and unfair, the other parts are bitchy, gold digging , I want it all, without working for it
Cam says
James. The truth is good women in Seattle are far too few. I was born and raised in Seattle. I know exactly what goes on their. If you like fat and cynical and a vengeful girl there is plenty to go around. You have to move. Period.
Cam says
This advice is for men only. Drop out of the dating seen for awhile. OK so continue to jack off but work on quitting that later. Polish yourself. You have to have a decent job. If you don’t have one I know where you can get started. Eat right. Get a juice man juicer. Work out. I play guitar so my arms are strong. Girls like strong arms. Stop looking at pornography this goes and works against you. You will find you think way too much about sex and it’s messing you up. Learn to egnor women unless you really need to talk to them. They egnor you do it back. At first it will be hard and you will fail and have set backs. Get creative with your own self rehab. Are you a man or mouse ? This separates the men from the boys. I am 60 years old and my wife is super hot and only 40. Only men can do this. It’s not for whimps.
Evan Marc Katz says
But, evidently, spelling is.
Mike XY says
Been reading a bunch of these posts…everything seems to keep going back and forth…I am 52..went through 2 marriages and a suicide of a girlfriend in between…..seen a lot of shit …I’ve had long conversations with a good female friend regarding what women look for as they get older…she is 5 years my senior and talks with me straight up…women in the 45-55 year range are looking for a man with a good job or stable financial situation first and foremost…#1 on their list….what ever happened to physical attraction…that is what makes a relationship work..do men look at financial situations as a determining factor to move forward in a relationship???..Answer is NO…lastly…Men are always trying to understand women and women are always trying to understand women…bottom line is no one will ever “know” how the other sex really works…If you think you have it figured out, you are just fooling yourself….. XX will never understand XY completely and the same goes for XY vs. XX…or XXX vs. XXY or any other combinations….we are all different and the one’s that “get” how our mind is wired tend to be from similar, if not the same, genetic sex chromosome pairings…I am sure I’ll get bashed for my thoughts, but just wanted to express my feelings..Mike…XY
Johnny says
I think God, Nature or whatever you choose to call the Divine force just failed with the human creation, nothing works out and then you die.
To try to find love outside of your self is the road to hell because it never works out. He or she can not give you love, only you can experience love in yourself and when you do you are happy and don’t need anyone because you are complete in love.
I have been trying to find love in a woman all my life but never found it in any woman, only momentarily.
Maybe nature do not care about our romantic dreams, it only cares about getting the woman pregnant.
Bill says
I could not get a date so I gave up on girls at age 16. I got some grief from my parents and society but I told them that women did not want me and after a while I was left alone.
Ken says
The problem isn’t Seattle or the guy’s real city. The problem is American women.
36% of American women are obese.
33% are severely clinically overweight.
48% of American women have an STD.
American teen girls rank 36th in math, 28th in science, and 24th in reading internationally. American women are dumb and apparently getting dumber.
70% of married women admit to cheating on their husbands.
40-50% of marriages end in divorce, with most of the divorces initiated by women. Why not? She keeps the house, gets sole custody of the kids and half the man’s salary as child support. If he doesn’t pay, he goes to jail. It doesn’t even matter if the kids are his.
Sounds like a great deal, right guys? Women treat me like dirt for being very short, bald, and ‘small’. I’m 32 and never even had sex. Sounds like I lucked out. My business is doing great, I have no wife ruining my life, and now I’m free to sleep with cute escorts who are fit, clean and STD free.
http://www.apa.org/topics/divorce/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/09/led-by-baby-boomers-divorce-rates-climb-for-americas-50-population/
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/10/06/cdc-110-million-americans-have-stds-at-any-given-time/
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/womens-health.htm
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/03/pisa-results-country-best-reading-maths-science
Tom says
Women are only attracted to looks.
What you say or do doesn’t matter. If she likes your face you can almost say anything.
These dating gurus only fools gullible men to think they can teach someone to attract. Fact is they can’t.
What works for them won’t work for you.
Be yourself, use your own humor and find your own style.
If you are not good looking you will have a hard time and needs to date women that are uglier than you.
This is the hard cold truth.
Sean says
I think I’m screwed,
I’ve never been a real social type of person, actually I’ve got some pretty serious anxiety issues with social situations. I’ve hit a rough patch pretty hard and as a result I’m unemployed and the opportunities for me have become pretty slim. I also don’t drive, never have. Truthfully the thought of having to climb into a car with the complete stranger instructor and not screw up gives me tingles in my spine.
Despite all of that I think I’m a really neat person and would have a lot to offer someone, but not enough to overcome my failings and shortcomings it seems. I get it though I look like a pretty significant burden from square one and taking that on isn’t a real popular option for anyone.
Thing is though even before all this adult responsibility came rushing into my life by virtue of age I was still not getting much attention in a dating sense. It feels like I am completely invisible as a prospective love interest. I’ve met some real neat women over the years and had some pretty fun times with them, but there’s always been that part that’s longed for something more. I don’t blame women because of that, I just wish it weren’t the way of things. I am pretty frustrated in general though, that the romantic interest just never seems to come into the picture for me.
I can’t be that conversational bombshell that oozes confidence throughout the room, it’s just not in me, it’s not who I am. I’m quiet and mellow, patient and really go-with-the-flow. I have opinions but don’t wear them on my sleeve, nor do I feel the urge to share my distaste for something someone else holds dear. I let it be out of respect. Just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean I should trample on someone else’s appreciation of something that brings them joy.
Just wish things were different.
Now that I’ve gotten that all out of my head I’m not super sure where I’m going with all of this. Guess I just needed to post this somewhere people are.
Hope you all find happiness.
Mark says
And then there are guys like me for whom any sort of relationship would be awesome, guys like me who are simply of no interest from a sexual point of view to any woman at all. I am not MGTOW, I am not angry at women – why would I be? It’s not women’s fault they’re not interested in me ‘that’ way – and in fact I have many women friends. The fact is, I’m just a guy in whom no woman has/is ever – and I mean ever, been the slightest bit interested in as a sexual partner. It really hurts to be as unattractive to women as I am. I studied hard, work hard and have done very well for myself professionally and financially, but at this point, I continue to work roughly 12 – 14 hours a day because the thought of going home to a dark house alone at night is a nightmare – so I just keep working.
I’ve literally never asked any woman out because it’s been plainly obvious since my teens that rejection is guaranteed 100% of the time, so I’ve never surrendered to the urge to make myself feel even worse about myself by getting rejected by a woman I’m interested in. Most of your advice is to women about men, Evan, but even though you’re married (i.e., had success with at least one woman), do you have any thoughts for guys like me who don’t stand a chance of ever being chosen by a woman as a mate?
Karl S says
The fact is, I’m just a guy in whom no woman has/is ever — and I mean ever, been the slightest bit interested in as a sexual partner.
I’ve literally never asked any woman out because it’s been plainly obvious since my teens that rejection is guaranteed 100% of the time, so I’ve never surrendered to the urge to make myself feel even worse about myself by getting rejected by a woman I’m interested in.
Sounds like you need therapy. If you’ve never been able to ask a woman out because you’re utterly convinced they’ll never be interested in you, then you’ve got some deep psychological work ahead of you and it will require the help of a professional.
Clare says
I agree with Karl S., Mark.
You are living an utterly self-fulfilling prophecy. Your fears are literally paralysing you from doing the one thing that would lift you out of your unhappiness and bring you joy. You need to recognise that it is your own fears holding you back, rather than any “unattractiveness” which you perceive on your part. Until you can see that, you will be stuck.
The good news is that all of this is in your power to change. You really don’t have to be unhappy – there is not some evil universal power out there dooming you to loneliness. You can start changing this right away, today if you want to.
If you think you are physically unattractive, join a gym and start going regularly, or go for a jog a few times a week. Go to a men’s hairstylist and get a new haircut. Take one of your women friends shopping with you and get her opinion on clothes which would look good on you and which women find attractive. Invest in a good cologne.
But confidence is one of the things that is most attractive to women – and that is 100% learnable by anyone. The ability to reach out and be vulnerable to another person despite the fear of rejection – very attractive. You might be surprised at the positive reaction that you get, and for those who reject you? Screw ’em. Even the most gorgeous, confident, successful people get rejected sometimes. Try just letting the woman talk about herself to start with; takes the pressure off, and you can’t go too far wrong.
Good luck.
Nick says
Overall I just think people suck. Anyone else here think that? I make good money, drive a nice car, attract somewhat ok women, do I care? Nope. If someone is too shallow to treat me right by being honest when it counts, not using my oilfield cash to cover their unhappiness by shopping at hobby lobby and forgeting their rent, and demands I focus on them realize I have hobbies I’m happy to piss away my money on. Being alone is way better than having manipulators and users around. #mgtow say what you want, doesnt phase me. I enjoy my life as it is.
Ron says
Most women are looking for men 6 feet and taller. If you can’t meet or exceed this one lone requirement, you will die a lonely virgin. Heightism is a real discrimination, it is not imagined, and the media will do everything in their power to make heightism not exist. You are not supposed to know the truth that is hidden in plain sight.
Lynx says
My daughter is 6′, and we’ve discussed how she’d be dramatically limiting her options by insisting on a taller guy. And she is totally okay with dating a shorter guy, but here’s the thing: the shorter guys she’s been interested in are overly conscious of it. They won’t stop making comments about her height, and it gets annoying.
So, don’t necessarily assume all women demand tall guys. As my daughter puts it, “My best friend is short — since we spend most of our time sitting and not walking around together, what does it matter?”
Cathalei says
There are many men who would prove this assertion wrong. It’s true that some women have a fixation on that and it seems common enough to make a case for an -ism but there are many other women who look at it differently. According to a research there is not a significant difference in dating success either way.
Marika says
No doubt height discrimination is very difficult. The blanket statements we see on here in abundance about ‘women’, however, are so very unhelpful. Die a lonely virgin? So you’ve never known a man under 6 feet to have ever met, slept with, or married a woman? I’m a tall woman and all my relationships other than one have been with guys under 6 foot.
Complaining gets you nowhere. The only thing you can do is ignore the height obsessed woman and focus on those who aren’t.
bongstar420 says
There is only so much responsibility men will bear moving forward. There will come a time where women will be forced to change…..all it takes is for enough James to exit the market and ignore most women most of the time which means not being social or helpful to them except for in the most limited of ways where men are treated identically.
Vagina is not worth more than a penis. All dating is for that. If it wasn’t, we would all be “just friends”
Bill says
I tried dating in High School . Girls told me that I was repulsive and that they would not piss on me if I were burning. I gave up on girls when I was 16 and started seeing escorts when I was 21. Escorts worked for me. Where “regular” girls would say “No”, escorts would say “you wanna eat my ——-? Escorts 10, Regular girls 0
Rod says
I only had six or seven dates as a teen (really). The last straw was when a girl had her friends tell me she wanted to go on a date to a party and sent me her phone number. To make a long story short, my date was just to make an old boyfriend jealous. I let him take her home. I never dated again.
I haven’t gone without women in my life. I married, although that was a mistake. The real person she was didn’t show up until the day after we returned from our honeymoon. I said “I do” only to discover I never would again.
I got lucky when I found the woman who really loves me. We’ve been together almost 15 years and she helps me get through the depths of my life with a smile and a lot of love. And we never went on one date ever.
Bill says
I could not get a date and I gave up on girls when I was 16 and started seeing escorts when I was 21. I like white and black women (I am a white guy) and I could enjoy the flavor I wanted on any given day.
Malcolm says
I’m a 38 year old man who has never gotten a date. People advise me to keep trying … keep falling down and being kicked in the heart by women I thought cared about me … but keep trying, they say. As a severely introverted man, I am completely invisible to women, and to get them to even acknowledge my existence takes all the energy I have – and then they reject me, literally every one I’ve ever tried to get to know. Human mating sets out that men compete for women’s attention against other men to be chosen as a mate. Guys like me stand zero chance against other guys who *can* be confident around women, because to become confident, a guy needs positive experience. I have literally zero experience because no woman has ever even noticed me. Women are not interested in me – and there is no evidence to the contrary.
El jefe says
I have heard people say that a certain women was shallow, boring etc. So I went and talked to her, flirt, tease, a little bantering to find out she is actually an awesome person, with a great personality. Maybe you are just too damn boring, I bet your dates consist of a ton of interview questions. Then you sit there and blame your date for being shallow….Looks like someone needs a little self improvement, take a step back, look at it from her point of view. Girls just want to have fun….no matter what age. Even if you have nothing in common, actually especially if you have nothing in common… Most women I have slept with to this day are still my friends. Maybe they keep me around because I am fun, Dont take rejection like the end of life… who knows, I could go on and on but…… seems like some never will change, but you lame guys with your interview questions make me look like a dating god so……THANKS
Conor Coves says
So many interesting comments. All I know is I’m tall over 6′ majority race of my nation, pretty fit, have a decent career, mid 30s, single forever. I don’t deny I maybe have an imperfect personality. However here in Minnesota I’ve been approaching girls in coffeeshops and elsewhere. Trying to do so straight up and ballsy, vs sleazy easy. And it works. They love it. We chat. I only approach girls I’m interested in so there’s the chemistry. It works, they eat it up because I’m so direct and cool, until I try ask them out or tell them I’d like to take then out. Then their face drops. It’s not even a question. They don’t even stop to consider. They know the answer is no. So now I approach, talk, and walk when possible. One was surprised, pleasantly. But where the heck does that leave us? Nowhere. Women don’t get this sh-t done on their own. But they also resist men who try. It’s infuriating. I get women Interested in me occasionally just by living my life but it’s as if when I try, the illusion breaks. It’s like learned helplessness. I don’t know how to square this circle. I do think modern women are crazy but I’m not sure. I put myself on a personality improvement plan original one day but one thing I want to improve and try to focus on having units of measure about it. For example do something (not more than) x times/day.
In my goddamn 35 years, being athletic tall fit owning my own house debt free college educated willing to make effort how could it be I have not found what works? I definitely missed last opportunities. In some cases I wasn’t ready psychologically (didn’t feel stable enough or whatever) but now I’m at my peak so far. I perhaps don’t fit your normal type. I know people love to type. That’s my perspective. I find a lot of the critical commenters speak some truth but it can only be a theory. I wanted to share my testimonial because I try not only have good faith but also fun when it comes to dating but it’s hard. Frustratingly hard. I hardly drink if that’s a factor but I do engage in activities. Not trying to excuse myself or boast but I have a very high IQ and I read that can cause issues. Also I found in general European women to be both more appealing and accessible. I’m not looking for weak women. In fact the stronger a woman is, in the way I perceive strength, the more able she is to be friendly and personable if not open minded to dating if single. Just my take.
Yeah I approached a woman yesterday night, struck up nice shirt convo, asked her out and got an insta no. The insta is the most frustrating part. Yeah I got frustrated. No I don’t feel entities to her body. Get that projection out of your head. I don’t put my frustration on her. I try to be indifferent around her, show no weakness, let her feel safe but I am pissed with all the cumulative experience of my life particular because I put in effort, and no side has fixed the situation, not “blue” or “red” or purple pill or black or whatever. I’m always open to anything. And granted I feel in a few key situations of my past I totally failed myself when things at least SEEMED like they were mine for the taking with a quality girl, but for the most part it’s as described above. I practiced stoicism lately but I’m afraid that only creates a time bomb. What’s your answer to me? If I can improve then I have power in my court and I certainly can somehow, but I do find it’s the type of woman that makes the biggest difference and the type that is good is so rare. Maybe it’s just that this type gets me. Maybe I just got lucky enough to make a good first impression. But neither improving myself nor making an effort to approach seems to solve things. In fact I have to get over this but that’s what makes me angry and frustrated because I keep putting myself out there. Yes I have to look earn how to not take personally. I hate the notion of game as opposed to just becoming awesomer and more confident and improving your personality, but it seems such game might be relevant and required based on my experience, but I don’t want it to be. I will resist it to the end and then accept it reluctantly when it would be irresponsible not to. Like Pilate I wash my hands. I’ll keep looking for answers from whatever source I can find them, knowing all the while that if I could move to Poland for example, I’d have it taken care of (and don’t you dare say the Polish aren’t strong and independent women, sir). But I’m settled here. I am a serious man. Their rejections don’t mean anything because they don’t know me, they probably don’t know themselves, they themselves aren’t willing to make the effort. One female friend in particular I am in awe of, because she’s so different, so perfect, so beautiful. I even hooked up with her. This is one of the examples of where I screwed up by not closing. The reason I’d probably give is she’s out of town long distance and also I thought it would be easier to meet like women here, but she’s awesome. She has bf now. She still encouraged me. She’s not judgemental like most typically are. She’s very real, I assure you, but I’m using her here as a fool, to allow me to generalize because I’m not universalizing. She says be proud of myself. Suggests museums, fairs, etc. But she listens and understands. She doth put the vast majority of women in stark contrast, which validate many of our generalizations. However maybe these other women are good natured too but just not open but then that begs the question, why not? Why would they get many false hits, assuming a man is worthy. In other words, if they should be open (pleasantly disposed) to worthy men, then how often do they get it wrong, in a way that is their issue? Unrelated I don’t think I make bad first impressions but in my day to day I never placed great importance on doing so. I will start now. So it seems, based on a few women I know, the best one of which I’ve shared, and she’s American, but from Chicago fwiw, that we can generalize about the rest as I’ve found apparent NAWALTs. However everyone has limits. She’s not perfect but she is very different. Was open to me from day one. Almost seemed too good to be true, and long distance, I met her for temporary work travel. So my question is why can’t other women be more like her or else why can’t I be capable of opening up women more effectively? I’m trying to write in a way that’s truthful and that encompasses both the critical commenters and Evan here. I think I have accomplished that, and everything I said has been fact based. Regards.
Bubba says
There is a surplus of men in Seattle and Washington State as a whole.
So James’ problem is that he is some combination of not rich enough, not good-looking enough, not athletic enough or not tall enough.
In other words, he is not perfect enough. The women in Seattle sense that they can be picky.
James needs to get the h*** out of Seattle and move to a city where there is a surplus of women.
It really isn’t any more complicated than that.
Marika says
Bubba
If you read all the comments, Evan made up the Seattle bit, to protect the LWs anonymity.
It is more complicated than moving, and that was essentially the point.
He will never do well with women if he doesn’t learn what they need, as will women not do well with men without learning what they need.
Bubba says
I picked up on the “Seattle bit” even BEFORE I posted. Most cities out west have more men than women, sometimes by a large margin, “Man Jose, CA” being a particularly notorious example.
The article isn’t worth much if it doesn’t even tell the truth about which city is involved. Therefore, my comment, about a shortage of available women being James’ primary obstacle, stands.
In a city where there is a surplus of men, the taller, better-looking, stronger and wealthier will quickly absorb the pool of available women. All the subjective, psycho-babble, stuff is irrelevant.
Did you ever play musical chairs when you were a kid?
N.O. Name says
What most ignore is the fact that some men spend their entire life being put down, humiliated, ridiculed and belittled. By their entire life, I mean from very early childhood to at least, in my instance, more than 70 years.
Although my mother refuse, an aunt submitted my photo in a “best Looking Child (under 5) contest. I won the contest, but received virtually no acknowledgement from my parents, aunts or grandparents. And this was only the beginning….
Bubba says
@NOName; It’s interesting that you won the contest, but you weren’t being belittled about it, just ignored. I do agree that there are plenty of situations where men are not really treated very fairly and are held to very unreasonable standards, but few people seem to care about these situations. The attitudes and level of ignorance are deplorable.
Paul says
If women are attracted to good guys, why don’t they show it? I never get signals of interest from women and I’m not about to express interest because I won’t risk being accused. I’ve read in several places that women usually give signs to guys they’re attracted to and that’s how most interactions start. I never get signals and so conclude that no woman is interested.
Rustylh says
I watched a good video. One of the things I picked up on what that social media and dating apps have created a huge problem in the dating arena. I picked up on it because he noted some things that were talked about in a documentary around 20 years ago about human sexuality.
The point was brought up that people will usually go for the best mate they can get, so they pursue the best (or hold out for) but then move down the list until they find somebody that is also interested in them. Evan says that your dating pool does not comprise who you want to date, but who wants to date you. So let’s say that the process above is really just a person learning who is actually in their dating pool. They go for the best, but learn that this person, and likely many more below that person, aren’t interested, at least not genuinely.
Before social media, and dating apps, your dating pool was who you came into contact with, either through chance meeting, or being introduced. But these were almost always people who lived nearby. This is important, because let’s assume that most people either require, or would prefer to find somebody who won’t disrupt their lives too much. Moving to another area, and possibly having to find new employment is about as disruptive as it gets.
Even before the internet, a woman had the impression of more abundance of choice than men did, as men have traditionally been the pursuers. Even now, men DO pursue those they are interested in. This impression was usually false because there were almost always men who simply didn’t qualify, or weren’t actually available to her in a genuine sense. A pursuer may not actually be available, or not actually be interested in a genuine relationship. I would say that for our Grandmothers, the biggest hurdle was in trying to figure out which man pursuing her, was actually interested in a lifelong relationship.
That still rings true today, but the internet has created an even bigger false impression of abundance. The majority of men don’t experience any sense of abundance in dating prospects, and those that experience some…it’s nowhere near what women experience.
In the past, when women made men prove their intentions through actions, and courtship…the process between first interest, and committing to each other, too months or even years, it was easier for women to know who was truly available to her, because the process weeded out the pretenders. This process literally does not exist anymore, with so many people hooking up within a very short time. Men no longer have to prove their intentions. The real winners are the top 20% of men. They are having more sex with more people than any men in history. Combine that with the destructive force of a divorce, and it’s no surprise that these men aren’t very interested in marriage.
But the real damage done is that these dating apps, and hookup culture, create a false impression of abundance that does not exist, and this works against the hypergamic nature of women. She never has to work down the list to the men that are genuinely interested in her, long term. This has often been referred to as women over-valuing themselves. Not really their fault on one hand…when you are a 6 or 7, and have dated and slept with many men with a higher SMV, it’s not a surprise when she doesn’t see another 6 or 7 as her peer.
With men, you only see this when a man is very wealthy, to the point that he can attract women he would never have a chance with, if not for the money.
The TL;DR version is simply that the internet, and changes in our culture have allowed women to put off working down the SMV scale, to find her peers. There’s always another super high quality man, out of her league, who will engage with her, socially, and physically, in the short term. Her prime years for finding a suitable mate, end up being wasted on men who were never truly in her dating pool. This has created an epidemic of incels and cat-ladies.
Michaelangelo Liebers says
The best advice is try not too think about women at all and being an alpha male they’ll come too you and all you have too do is show no interest in them no calls or text and its a game too them even a serial killer night stalker gotten alot of women Richard Ramirez or those guys that beat up women love bad boys and its better than being single in a miserable relationship don’t be needy but also attraction like being in fit like go too a gym and workout along showing no interest they’ll hate it you show them nothing thats a man
Seattlite says
Lol you opened up a real can of worms mentioning dating in Seattle! Should have picked a different city for sure.
Doug says
As a sexually invisible man, for me, the fact that no woman would ever be attracted to me has nothing to do withy my looks, state of health / fitness, skills, hobbies or professional/financial success: I have all of these things and more in droves. I also have many close female friends. In spite of these things, there is no point in approaching any woman no matter how attractive I find her because she has a choice among guys – and I can’t compete against other guys, most of whom are / can be attractive to some women. As such, I have never expressed romantic / sexual interest in any woman – and no woman has ever shown the slightest interest in me – and I do not expect them to. I certainly do not blame women for not being attracted to me – nobody can help whom they’re attracted to.
John M Guinto says
I’m 61,never married,never had a girlfriend,nor a single date in my life,and I don’t miss it,it doesn’t bother me at all,I’m hapy just the way I ‘am.I don’t understand why everybody thinks you have to be married.
Paul says
What is really happening is the result of many years of feminism being preached to American women, and now virtually all of them are infected with it. Like liberalism and many other -ism’s, they are rooted in a foundation of disinformation and prevarication, meaning they all have a goal to manipulate and do whatever it takes to achieve it, while never outwardly stating what this goal is.
Because of this, those who claim to uphold its tenets, are unable to think clearly and logically, which over time causes cognitive dissonance and other mental and behavioral challenges .
For example, look at the women only make seventy something cents for every dollar a man makes, lie which is still being tossed around today, despite it being repeatedly shown to not have any intelligent, factual evidence to support it.
This is one small example, but since I know what I am saying here will be rejected by many who don’t like how it sounds, I would suggest going to talk to any woman who lived during the feminism agenda pushing decades of the 1960s and 1970s, and saw the manipulation tactics and distortion of facts that were used, and not caught up in it.
Larry says
Relationships aren’t the same as they used to be. It used to be that men and women wanted to get married and raise a family. Married couples faced hardships and difficult times in their lives. They were more willing to work together and stay together through the years. Nowadays, family values and moral values have been flushed down the toilet. It’s all sbout money and lawyers. Most people these days, are selfish, they only care about is someone who is rich, and is fantastic in bed. Cheating and lying is not a big deal, everyone does it so why get upset? If uou don’t like it? That’s your problem! You got a bad attitude! GET LOST! You’re lousy in bed so I’m kicking you to the curb! How dare you question me! I’m going to live my life the way I want to whether you like it or not! These are some of the comments I got from different women that I had dated in the past. The future doesn’t look very good for me as I get older. Perhaps someday I’ll win the lottery and be rich, maybe I’ll find someone who will adopt me for thier own sugar daddy. I wish that I could travrl back in time, back to those good ole’ days when msrriage and relationships mean’t a whole lot more than they do now.
onyxman50 says
I live in Georgia, right outside of Atlanta (which has the largest single population in the U.S. or one of the largest).
The dating problem has been a battle for a very long time because women want particulars that men don’t want to give and men have particulars that women don’t want to give (and trust me that is not isolated to the U.S.). In other countries the laws are different so alot of women submit to their men or they can literally be killed, so they are not docile or subservient because they want to be but because it can be very dangerous not to be. On top of that, divorce is not easy to get in a lot of non 1st world countries also.
In the U.S. women are afforded the same rights as men when it comes to dating, which is, date who you want. Divorce as many times as you see fit.
The dating conundrum here in the States is going to get worse, and marriage is going to almost be non-existent; at 50 I probably won’t live long enough to see it, but it will.
Reason being is that neither men nor women are going to cater to each other in ANYTHING, no just the large request, but the trivial also. I’m guilty of it, and it isn’t going to change with me either, not at 50 (I’ve been this way my whole life, so then there’s that).
What we are saying when dating is “accommodate me” and “if you think I am special enough, you will accommodate me). “I know that I have request that you don’t want to fulfill, would not do if you were not with me, or simply don’t like at all……so, accommodate me, aren’t I worth that”
That is coming from both men and women. The answer is usually “no” and emphatically “no”. “No” to the point of “I would rather be single again than do that or those things” “I’m not changing for you or anyone else” “take me as I am or not at all”
Well that attitude dissolves relationships and marriages alot.
So the question is, “what is the answer”……..and that answer is “ACCOMMODATE” or be content with being single, (men) buying pussy, (women) paying male escorts or just having friends.
You can’t have any human to human relationship AT ALL, for as long as you are alive, without accommodating.
Think about it this way, we have laws that people abide by and you will accommodate those who make the laws, but this shows how much people will not accommodate…..if you don’t not then we will make you pay for that or go to jail. Which based on how filled jails are, show that people will not accommodate up to the point of having their freedom taken away.
Think about you as a child, your parents……..accommodate me and do what I say, but if you don’t there will be consequences…..we all know how that goes.
By the way, those that travel back in time to the 50’s and prior……..well women had to accommodate men, why, they couldn’t get jobs and the laws were bent toward men. We see what happened when all that changed.
So even in the 50’s and before……..women didn’t want to accommodate men, they had to.
Human’s by nature do not want to accommodate, ever. Those that want to be in a relationship with another human do……..those that don’t, will not.
This will not change, this is not based on geographical location, gender, age or ethnicity, only the request are.
There I said it.
Chris says
Its not that we dont understand what makes a women like a man, it’s that using pick up techniques is fake and implies that I need to act like I have millions of options with women to get a girlfriend. I don’t like being fake to get a women after me.
Even if I was successful at attracting women, the process to do it is unfulfilling. Knowing the girl likes me by how ‘popular’ I am with other women. No thanks.
Bongstar420 says
Why is a man always expected to spend money or exert resource command to get sex and love
Bongstar420 says
Exactly
van says
I actually feel bad for James cuz hes a victim honestly. Women like bad boys because people are for the most part are shallow and they gravitate towards insta gratification especially in America. Like women flock towards bad boys because they advertise shamelessly and its no different than being loud. Idiot make up a majority of the world an idiots buy into flashiness because its like those giant shiny marketing signs. Intelligent girls are rare finds and well they probably all are taken and married in happy lasting relationships. James is ur the stereotypical guy thats another nice guy that couldnt sit down fast enough outta high school when the music stopped in a game of musical chairs. Its the sht reality that theres alot of beautiful trashy women out there and they will always be in the game because no one wants to keep them long term. Its like this if your a girl you could either put time an effort into developing yourself or look good. Its alot easier to look good and get boys to do the work than developing to be a good person so in the end the ratios are all screwed up. Theres alot shtty women especially hot ones cuz everyone wants to take short cuts. The difference is that men dont have the option to look hot and get out of getting a job by hopping into someones lap. James has all the right to be pissed but its not any specific womens fault its how the society works as a whole. Women sell… the higher the bid available the more picky they get. You get trashy scams because thats all thats left the good ones are gone at 16 and longer they stay in the dating game the trashier and more jaded they become. The more friends someone has the less each friend is worth and it applies to bfs and ex bf and love. Sorry James best shot u got is go rob a crib or raise ur own or go to a different country. Women in America are terrible because the dating game teaches them to be shtty cuz they are rewarded for it and taught by the media. Theres alot of honest men out their but very little good honest women cuz those are already locked up and bought out at a young age. As you get older you start having to compete with old man jenkins and his billion dollar account so i mean its pretty hopeless. Musical chairs is a ruthless game if it wasnt it wouldnt be a subject everyone keeps bringing up. The problems really that trashy women cant understand or appreciate decency if they could they wouldnt be trash to begin with. Best chance date a girl whose a super fat hopeless case and treat her well then help her fix her issues and become better. When she sheds all her issues she might become what you wanted. U cant buy love but theres a chance u can make someone hot. Besides it means more to you if you made it urself. Loves the work you put in not something you found by chance.
X says
Maybe the reason you are still single, men, is because you’re actually threatening assholes.
No woman I know cares about the money from someone they’ve just gone one date with. The first date is all about determining safety, and if it didn’t dawn on you ‘maybe she acts so tough/ambitious/masculine’ whatever else, it’s a defense mechanism because she just wants to have a good time with someone who won’t abuse her.
To women, going on dates these days—especially from internet apps, is actually a life threatening risk.
If it didn’t dawn on you that she quite literally risked her life to sit at the table in front of you, giving heads up texts and details to her family or friends just so she can report that she returned home alive…then understand she already was interested. That’s why she showed up and took that risk.
In other words, if she shows up to the date in the first place, it’s because she already was very interested.
If she leaves disinterested, it’s because you did something to make her feel unsafe.