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Ok, I said I understand and we can take it slow and I certainly don’t want to do anything that’s going to make you uncomfortable. I should say that we do “make out” but no intercourse. I have no problem waiting until she is ready for sex, but I would feel much better about it if we were exclusive. Neither of us have brought it up and seeing how it’s only been a few months, I don’t want push her away with the “are we exclusive” topic.
Is there something more to her statement of wanting to take it slow?
Thanks!
Brian
Dear Brian,
One of my clients had the same exact issue going on during his burgeoning relationship. He’s 22 and he’d been on about 6-7 dates without any physical intimacy or exclusivity. And although he, too, is crazy about this girl, he couldn’t help but wonder where things were going.
My instincts told me that he was a victim of “nice guy” syndrome. By being so worried that a woman won’t like him, or that he might upset her if he makes a move, he passively plays the friend card and kills all hope of attraction. I encouraged my client to not be afraid of making a move physically, and, if his date doesn’t reciprocate, sit her down for a heart to heart.
Heart to heart discussions, to me, REVEAL feelings, they don’t DICTATE feelings. Which is why having the conversation won’t change how someone feels about you it’ll just let you know the cold, hard, truth. I wrote about this extensively for Match.com’s Happen Magazine last year. As long as you’re reasonable and not attacking, you’re just gonna get your answer by being direct. Most people are way too afraid to do this. Not my client.
Heart to heart discussions, to me, REVEAL feelings, they don’t DICTATE feelings.
He took my advice after she declined to go “any further” than making out… Here’s the recap of their heart-to-heart in which he talked about how he needed clarity on their relationship:…
The conversation kind of naturally went towards past relationships, and she told me how she has a history of rushing into things. (Her last boyfriend she moved in with after two months!) Anyway, I get into the whole bit about how I needed to know where this was going, and we talked for a while about why we hadn’t had sex yet and why she felt like we didn’t know each other. She agreed that she was taking it really slow, but it’s because she didn’t want to repeat her mistakes of the past. I brought up that what I needed right now was clarity and security, and we talked for a bit about what it meant to be boyfriend and girlfriend.
Long story short, she was asking me why I wanted to be her boyfriend. I finally figured out that what she needed to know was why I was choosing her instead of any of the millions of girls in the city. To be honest, I had assumed she knew why she was special to me at this point. Maybe she just needed to hear it. And she told me how she really liked me and wanted to be my girlfriend.
I think it’s only a small matter of time before we have sex, because she told me that she only needed to feel secure in her relationship and that it would last before she would have sex. Basically, she didn’t want to have sex unless she knew things were going to be around for a while. But she is “like a 12-year old boy” (her words) when it comes to sex and I can tell she is really holding herself back. She said the reason why we couldn’t go any further than making out was because she wouldn’t be able to stop herself from going all the way.
We connected a lot more emotionally tonight than on any previous date!
I made a big effort to come off as caring and empathetic all night (basically act like a boyfriend and so shall you be).
Thanks for all your help, Evan! The profile writing and picture taking let me see myself in a whole new light. It gave me the confidence I needed to get the girl that I deserved. And your advice on the phone has always been spot-on. Thanks again for your priceless advice, I couldn’t be happier!
Seth
I’ll be honest with you, Brian this note surprised me. I really thought that this girl was just using him for companionship trying on the nice guy for size until she met someone she liked better. Thankfully, he struck just the right tone in his heart-to-heart where he learned that this was not the case. It’s not that she’s not attracted to him; it’s that she’s risk-averse.
You can make all the excuses in the world about “taking it slow”, but people who are excited about each other rarely take it slow.
Still, I want to caution men out there with the same exact advice I’d give to women if a woman is not sleeping with you, if a woman is not committing to you, if a woman is not making an effort for you, the odds are that she is just not that into you. You can make all the excuses in the world about “taking it slow”, but people who are excited about each other rarely take it slow.
I’d let her know how you feel ASAP. You’d like to move things along physically, but are willing to respect her wishes, as long as you know that you’re in an exclusive relationship. And if she can’t make that promise to you, then you’re going to have to think long and hard as to whether you want to commit to someone who is so decidedly indifferent towards you.
Do this and you’ll know where you stand soon enough.
Selena says
“You can make all the excuses in the world about taking it slow, but people who are excited about each other rarely take it slow.”
I agree with that. “Taking it slow” can mean not jumping into bed together the first week of meeting, but I’ve always known within 2 mos. if I was really interested in someone and they with me. When mutual interest was high, we spent most of our free time together and were amazed, and pleased that we got to know each other so well, so fast. It would have felt odd, unnatural to delay intimacy and exclusivity out for several months.
John says
See I agree. I usually know in my heart after about 3-6 weeks whether or not I can see myself with someone long term. It’s a feeling that I can’t describe to others how to feel, but I know what it feels like and it’s my aid in decision making about a potential relationship. Recently though, any relationship that I’ve been in where I do see a future and she wants to “take it slow” even after we’ve been intimate, feels to me like either a cop out for not wanting to pursue something more serious or simply that she’s now gotten what she wanted and is leaving your heart to the wayside (basically a total frat guy move). Why can’t we all just say what we feel?
excpired says
Do you ever question if she says take it slow because she is scared about it being serious?
I’m in this situation right now with a girl, we spent 4 days together in a row basically (work on a couple of the days), she introduced me to several of her friends, and we discussed being exclusive but said its a bit early and we should wait and see how things progress.
She left my place the other morning and we were both happy, but then that evening when I texted her she said she was thinking about “What to do about us” and it basically just turned into her saying she doesn’t know if I’m good LTR material because she thinks I’m not stable and doesn’t like my career choice (film director) – I worry that she thinks I’m going to be out of town all the time and not attentive, or will leave her because I become some hot shot director.
I just want to be with her and enjoy her company, shes the only woman I’ve met in my adult life that I find interesting enough and sexy enough to want to be with as more than just fwb and I’m terrified that I’m going to lose her over some insecurities of hers, but I wonder if maybe there is something else that I’m just not getting.
For the record we’ve only known each other for 3 weeks so it is all moving very fast, we slept together on the first night and met in a fun way. I don’t claim to know her well enough to say I want to be with her long term or anything like that I just know that I’d be very upset if this ends now over something stupid when I know she digs me more than anyone atm.
John Wagner says
Ghost her out for a while. If she contacts you and asks you why you’ve been avoiding her, tell her you are “taking it slow.” LOL!
Jes says
Evan,
Thanks for the great article! I have been going through this with a guy that I have been seeing. I really like him but have been hurt by guys in the past, esspecially the ones who get me to move things along faster than i was ready!
A friend of mine told me this weekend to initiate the subject with him and see what happens. So after reading your article, I am going to see if we can have one of those heart to hearts!
Thanks for all your great advice, I have developed so much “dating” confidence since I started reading your blog. It’s probably why I am at this point in the relationship!
Thanks!!!
Robert says
I couldn’t agree with you more, Evan. I did learn however, an important skill from reading this blog. That skill is, revealing your own feelings to the lady to encourage her to feel comfortable about opening up to you. Even if getting the lady comfortable enough to open up to you means that you’ll hear that she’s just not into you, that’s OK. At least you’ll know the truth, rather than waiting longer to discover it. You also did a great job of reiterating the importance avoiding the friend syndrome. I’d love to see you delve into that more in a future post. All this said, I look back on the meaningful relationships that I’ve had with ladies in the past (post college) and conclude that in each instance, we slept together by the 5th or 6th date without exception. If the emotional connection is there, two people sexually attract each other like magnets…..unless there’s a critical missing link.
Angela Crisp says
Evan, my dear, again you show your genius. This advice is superb. Anyone who is dating wants to know if there is real chemistry or not, and putting the cards on the table is the only way to get that info out. I know that most women are hesitant to say what they are thinking, but a quick thinking man can usually get our thoughts out on the table. The real trick is to make the emotion known, without obligating anyone to act on it right now. Your advice really shines in this regard. Thank you again for reaching this important point. regards, A.C.
verbosity says
Interesting topic. This can go in a bunch of different directions, but I find it shocking that people in their 30’s aren’t physical after 1/4 of a year. It would seem the conversation about lack of physicality would occur early, (ie. – “My religion says I should wait, etc”) not 3 months into things. Brian doesn’t even mention that they’ve had to ‘put the brakes’ on so to speak, as things were passionate.
What what she does, don’t listen to what she says.
My guess is Brian is facing a power struggle. First she asks him about his feelings. Than, having bared himself, she can now toy with him, since she knows she has him. He’s lost. Physical intimacy (ie. – sex) naturally should progress, and be most present early on in a relationship.
The oldest trick in the book is to use the promise of sex, and sex itself, as a power game to train guys like Pavlov did to his dog. It’s pretty bloody insulting. It’s not so he respects her, either. It’s a control game. Lord knows I’m not saying to do anything forcible, but geeze, it’s all a ridiculous game.
“She told me she feels the same way, but wants to take it slow. She mentioned that the last time she felt this sort of passion she got hurt.” Several points, if she’s so hurt from indulging her passions, she should be in therapy, and she sure should be able to provide Brian more of an explanation than she got hurt the last time she felt this much passion.
Brian, if something is amiss like this this early into your relationship, something’s likely wrong. Sex is huge, especially so early into a relationship. If your goal is to have a successful relationship I would venture to guess she is not it. At best, she’s ‘hurt’ from previous relationships. At worst, she’s manipulating him. You should be with someone where things move more naturally.
Evan’s advice is spot-on (“if a woman is not committing to you . . . the odds are that she is just not that into you.”) I actually have a far more cynical take on things, but I will spare readers.
Bottom line – I bet Brian’s her backup. He should move on. He sounds like a nice guy, which is why he’s in the bullpen.
Kat says
I couldn’t disagree more. Unfortunately, most people in this world HAVE been “hurt” in one way or another, and people come with baggage. If you’re not willing to consider the other person’s feelings on how much time they need, then you don’t need to be in a relationship with ANYONE. I don’t believe Brian’s her backup. Because I am a woman and I am going through the exact same thing. Dating a VERY nice guy, and waiting to have sex–simply because I’ve rushed into things in the past, and I DON”T want to ruin this current relationship by rushing-and also, like Brian’s girlfriend, I have to feel secure and like the relationship is going to last before giving such a big part of myself away. A man who sees that as “manipulation”, may need therapy himself. I’m very happy for Brian it looks to me like he had a breakthrough and is on his way to a happy relationship. As a woman I can say she is probably feeling more secure since their talk and things may move along physically as a result of that! 12-13 dates sounds like a lot…but then again I’ve never waited like this before myself. Me and my “nice guy” (who I’m crazy about and VERY attracted to, by the way) are on our 6th date our next outing.
Steve says
Couldn’t agree more.
Just started on the dating scene with my new girlfriend.
This is both new to use second time around. We have history and baggage from previous relationships.
We are taking it “slow” and learning to be friends and no more about each other.
5 dates in and we feel a great attraction for each other.
I/ we have no doubt it will come when we want
Abc says
So when you say secure, do you mean financially? XD, like 6 diget income to buy cloths and makeup from, or just enough to take care of himself 👌
verbosity says
Typo –
Watch what she does, don’t listen to what she says.
Paul says
Evan…that is the best piece of advice I think I’ve ever heard. If she is not doing the things that people do when they are really into you, then guess what…she’s probably not that into you! It also made me realize that there have been a lot of women that I have dated, or could have dated, but I either didn’t continue if I was, or didn’t date them in the first place because I was just not that excited about them, and you have to be excited about a person. Your right…people who are excited about each other rarely take it slow, and there really isn’t a lot of questioning about where it’s going.
mrs. vee says
I was, in a sense, a risk-averse dater once. if you are a woman who takes the statements of socio/biological experts to heart that men are primarily driven to seek mates for sex, it makes sense to at least try to take things slowly. esp. if a LTR is the goal.
one of the things I fell in love with about mr. vee was his absolute directness, coupled with his unshakeable calmness in telling me he cared for me in the early stages of our relationship. even as I waffled on my own level of commitment to him, he always projected an air of certainty and confidence that seemed to say “I love you, and I’m saying this for me – to be 100% authentic to myself – as much as for you. I’ll be disappointed but just fine if you say no.”
the fact he was so truthful and yet totally unafraid of the consequences of telling the truth really impressed me.
as time passed, I saw him rise to the occasion in a number of instances that made it obvious he was a good and trustworthy man. I can’t think of any way he could have convinced me of his integrity through words alone.
be open with this woman, Brian. be patient. be strong. and realize that the passage of time is a powerful tool for building trust between two people.
Lance says
Yikes, 12-13 dates with no sex and they’re in their 30’s. My guess is also she’s not attracted to him and he’s being way too much of a nice guy (chump).
Woman usually know if they would have sex with a guy within the first 5 minutes…I’ve even heard it said plenty of times within the first FIVE SECONDS of an interaction. It depends on the impression you make and how attractive you come across during that initial meeting.
Taking risks and being bold is an attractive, sexy trait. You’ve got to go for it sooner rather than later. Have that talk immediately, like Evan recommends, and find out where she’s at. If she’s not that into you, she won’t ever be, and move on.
Bev says
You guys all need another valid veiwpoint. Mine. I’m like that girl and there is no hidden agenda like power for me. It’s just that every guy I meet wants to rush things toooooo soon. Those relationships never turn out well. So from past experience, I wait and date and See What Happens. I think guys just want to conquer and not think of the good of the relationship that could become permanent if they really became good and trusted friends first. If a guy pushes me too much, I’m gone.
hunter says
…Ladies, ask the men what they think, men ask women what she feels….men (before 50 years old), intellectualize, we don’t operate off our feelings…..
Lynn says
I agree with Mrs. V. that taking things slowly at the start of a relationship is key, if indeed what the couple wants is a long term relationship. I have come to believe that sexual intimacy too quickly (before the 5th or 6th date+) symbolizes a casual attitude toward the relationship. Having time and patience to have intimate discussions before becoming sexually intimate is a good way to build a good foundation, as well as discuss what any expectations either partner may have, i.e., if we start having sex, we won’t date others, or if we start having sex, we will potentially be long-term mates, etc. Too many times I have been burned, assuming the guy had the same feelings and intentions that I did, only to find out that he saw only a casual forecast.
As much as I hate the ideas behind “the rules,” I do think that there is good psychology behind waiting a little bit at the beginning, as long as it has nothing to do with a power trip for the woman.
breezy says
Hi Evan,
I was surprised that YOU were surprised by how the woman answered your client during their heart-to-heart talk. Yes, some women (and men) use “let’s take it slow” to keep their options open for somebody better, but not all of them; instead, many of us are like that woman– we want to take it slowly so that we don’t repeat our previous relationship mistakes. You wrote that “people who are excited about each other rarely take it slow,” which may be true, but for many of us, THAT’S PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. Just because many people do it that way doesn’t mean it’s healthy.
Specifically, some of us have a pattern of becoming too attracted and too attached too soon and then cannot resist sleeping together, which in turn makes us feel more emotionally close to our boy/girlfriend than is really justified at that point in the relationship. This distorts our view so that even if issues arise that indicate this person isn’t as good a fit for us (and us for them) as we thought, we tend to overlook that because we’re already so emotionally invested in this person and in the relationship. And ultimately when we can no longer ignore the fact that it’s just not working out, breaking up is not only overdue but also much more painful because we got too deeply involved too soon.
As one therapist advised me, “You need to take the time to determine if this person is a good fit and THEN get deeply involved, instead of doing it the other way around” (which was my tendency). And for some people, that may mean they need to wait several months before finally having intercourse.
Perhaps this is more an issue for women than for men, since in general it seems having sex has more of an emotional component for us than for guys (of course there are exceptions). Thus, we women may be more vulnerable to feeling that a sexually intimate relationship is closer than it really is. At any rate, if “taking it slow” is a concern in a relationship, I do agree that having an honest talk about it is the way to go.
note to mrs. vee: I can see why you were impressed by your husband–his attitude sounds really healthy.
Selena says
Perhaps “slow” is a matter of personal interpretation. The 5th. or 6th. date could happen within the first week of meeting. Or within the first 2 or 3 weeks. Or within the first 2 or 3 months if you don’t see each other that often. Perhaps “slow” is dependent upon how much time you’ve actually spent getting to know each other and figuring out what each other is about.
m says
Jeebus Crispy, verbosity.
Stop projecting.
Just because you were hurt once and distrust all women doesn’t mean that every man does.
Also, once again, didn’t you say in a comment long long ago that you were PLANNING TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE SINGLE?!?
This blog is for people who want to be/are partnered.
You are not helping.
m says
Also, what Bev and Lynn and breezy said.
Women frequently become more emotionally attached through an experience of physical intimacy. So it behooves us (and really the couple as well, although I’m sure vociferous argument from several males is imminent w/regard to that concept) to wait and see whether the man in question is worth trusting with our sexual and emotional health.
I know — because you all tell us ad infinitum, ad nauseum — that men struggle with the endless urge of the biological sex drive.
However, if you give a hoot about the woman that you’re seeing, perhaps it might be worthwhile to at least consider and appreciate her perspective on waiting to be physically intimate, and not immediately leap to the unsupported conclusion that she’s baiting you in some sort of power struggle.
Men frequently want to “Take It Slow” and “See What Happens” as well.
They just tend to want to do it AFTER the couple has had sex.
tony says
verbosity: “My guess is Brian is facing a power struggle. First she asks him about his feelings. Than, having bared himself, she can now toy with him, since she knows she has him. He’s lost.”
Verbo, dude, again you managed to come up with the most cynical possible scenario and tried to present it as the most likely one. You paint women with such a shallow, mean-spirited brush. And you’re the one who gripes the most about ad hominem attacks.
You’re not even giving Brian here much credit, if you assume he could fall so easily for a chick who’s manipulating him.
What the hell happened in your dating history to make you so warped on women, verbo? Do you not know ANY cool chicks at all? Was your mother not a goood role model? Do you think it’s impossible that good females are out there? Do you think the rest of us guys who want to fall in love and get married are just schmucks?
Sorry to go off topic, Brian, but I wanted to get that off my chest. Back to your question, man, you know maybe she’s telling the truth. Maybe she just wants to take things slowly. My ex had a lot of issues with her parents and former boyfriends screwing her over. She just needed a lot of time to fully believe that I wasn’t just using her for sex or to stroke my ego or anything. Makes sense, right? I figured I wanted to spend the next 100 years with her, so I didn’t mind waiting for her to come around to trusting me. Mrs. V’s right about how time and trust go hand in hand.
I think you’re on the right track though when you say you want to find out if you’re exclusive. If she truly feels as passionate about you as she says, then why should she entertain the idea of other men at this time? if she says she wants to keep seeing other guys, then I’d say she fails the bullshit test.
Good luck with her, Bri.
excpired says
Curious, why is the gf your ex? I notice a lot of people get on a soap-box about how much they know about relationships but then all of their examples of people who really liked them aren’t dating them anymore.
So what did you do wrong to make her leave? or what did she do wrong that made you leave?
hunter says
to Brian,
..most men don’t want to wait for sex that long, most men are not therapists, or, doctors…if she has to wait, lengthy periods she is hurting/not done with her last relationship/needs help….find another woman…
hunter says
to Bev
……yes, everything you said, that is why there are so many single women…
Steve says
I agree with Evan & Brian in that requests to take things slow might be a veiled expression of disinterest.
I agree with Evan’s advice to sit the woman down and ask her what her intents are, in a non-threatening way.
I think that is common sense and my guess is that men will not do that because they have a fear of spoiling what might turn into a good thing by asking.
As with everything else in life you have to be willing to “walk away from a sale” sometimes to get the deal you want. You have to be confident that you can find another situation if the current one does not work out. I think it helps to remember more of Evan’s advice, again just common sense: most of the time if someone is interested in you, you can tell. So, in situations where you have to ask if s/he is interested chances are you may have nothing to lose by asking anyway.
Steve says
Bev Feb 25th 2008 at 04:27 pm 10
if they really became good and trusted friends first.
Language is everything. “Lets be friends first” is a common phrase used by women to gently express disinterest in a romantic relationship ( notice the use of “romance”, not “sex” ).
I wouldn’t use a stranger’s tooth brush and I like to get to know someone before I have sex with her too.
Maybe better a better choice in words for women to use is to say “I would like to get to know you better first”. Other choices of words like the above will be translated as “She isn’t interested in me, time to go find someone else”
verbosity says
LOL, hunter! Pithy as always.
I love it when a valid scenario like the one I proposed is somehow held out as unreasonable because it takes into account the less-than-perfect sides of human nature. There’s nothing wrong with ‘taking it slow’ per se, but as they say, the devil’s in the details, no? Let’s look at the FACTS about what Brian wrote, shall we? 2 people, in 30’s, 3 months dating, 12-15 dates, and now the conversation about going slow?
My point, dear readers, and you know who you are, is that any relationship is built upon communication and honesty. Women like communication, no? My belief is that Brian’s girlfriend (if she views it that way) would likely have told him long before the 12th date or so that she’s been ‘hurt’ if she were open & honest. How was she hurt? What was the trauma? More to the point, how is this affecting her now? And will it continue? My point is, Brian deserves answers to these questions so he can make a full and fair decision about whether to be in a relationship with a women who may have issues regarding sex or is potentially playing games. Or is okay for him to be potentially deceived? Brian and any man or woman in his shoes is unwise for failing to consider this possibility, even if possibly unpleasant.
I love M’s and Tony’s comments….trying to insult me for telling Brian to consider something so he doesn’t get blindsided & hurt. Tony’s answer provides why specifically I suggest Brian consider the possibility she’s not being upfront – “my ex had a lot of issues with her parents and former boyfriends screwing her over. She just needed a lot of time to fully believe that I wasn’t just using her for sex or to stroke my ego or anything. Makes sense, right?”
She is an ex, no? Apologies for being blunt, but Brian needs such background info to make that informed decision, not some vague “I’ve been hurt” answer. Tony, you chose to stay with her know what she told you, as is your right. Brian may choose not to stay with her based with the same information…but he needs the info.
Tony, I’m on record as saying there is no reason to marry. Period. That doesn’t mean that I do not believe people cannot partner up for the rest of their lives. They can and should. Keep the courts out of the relationship. I trust this also answers M’s oft-repeated lie that I said I’m going to remain single. Saying you do not wish to marry does not mean you would not have a relationship.
I’d offer the thought that if Brian’s been this patient without an answer for 3 months and a dozen or more dates, he’d be nice & understanding enough for most anything she tells him (assuming it’s true). However, someone as nice as Brian should also consider the less-than-pleasant alternatives also, for this is the only rational course of action.
Lance says
@Bev. I like your strong take, but I disagree. Relationships that start fast, ie where the physical happens quickly, are often successful. I want to say the majority of them, but I’ve never done a poll so I can’t make that conclusion. BUT, I do know from my personal experiences and from my social circle, that that is the case. And I’m not talking about one-night stands or a bar hookup either, I mean a MUTUAL attraction, where both parties are totally into each other and want to get it on. The key here is they are mutually attracted. The guy can’t be creepy and needy, and the girl can’t be bitchy and boring.
Guys don’t want to conquer woman. True men want to lead and offer our gifts to the world. Guys who don’t know what they’re doing just fumble around.
tony says
Bri –
You did say you’re crazy about her, right? So wait for her if you care about her that much.
I hear what a lot of the guys on this blog are saying – how you shouldn’t have to wait for sex. Believe me, when all I wanna do is get laid, my attention span is like zero. But that applies only if sex is all I’m after. If this is a girl you can see yourself with for the long haul, then a few months is a drop in the bucket.
Or I dunno. Maybe when u say you’re “crazy” for her, you just meant you’re sexually frustrated and have no plans or hopes beyond getting her in bed. In that case, maybe she’s right to be guarded about you.
What exactly do you want from this lady, Brian?
amanda l. says
m said: “Men frequently want to Take It Slow and See What Happens as well.”
“They just tend to want to do it AFTER the couple has had sex.”
LOL! That’s so true!
AT says
I identify with some things that Seth’s girlfriend said.
Specifically:”…because she told me that she only needed to feel secure in her relationship and that it would last before she would have sex. Basically, she didn’t want to have sex unless she knew things were going to be around for a while….She said the reason why we couldn’t go any further than making out was because she wouldn’t be able to stop herself from going all the way.”
…And so I ask Evan: What advice would you have had for Seth’s girlfriend?
Steve says
I can’t speak for men other than myself, but the sex isn’t just about the sex. It is nice to know if a incipient relationship has a future…you know romance. If a woman will not have sex with you past a certain point it does make you wonder.
I also think some guys here are over dosing on the PUA literature.
m says
“And so I ask Evan: What advice would you have had for Seth’s girlfriend?”
BEST. QUESTION. YET.
tony says
My point is, verbo, that your tendency to gravitate towards a mean portrayal of women goes far beyond just wanting “to keep the courts out of a relationship”.
So maybe your reasons for bringing up the least flattering-to-women scenario is to bring up all possible explanations… so that Bri doesn’t get blindsided & hurt. Awww.
But if we’re agreed that we want to hear all possible explanations, one possible explanation for your incessant diatribes against women in this forum is that you’re a sad dude without the money, looks or likability to get dates, and so you’re placing the blame on them. That, of course, is just one explanation – not insulting to you since it’s just a “possible” explanation.
Jeannie says
Some of you gentlemen are forgetting a really important reason why a woman would want to take it slow sexually – PREGNANCY!!!!! Afterall that IS the biological point of sex. For a woman in her 20s, there is a one in four chance of getting pregnant each time she has sex. And there is no birth control out there that is 100% and every woman either knows someone or herself that have gotten pregnant while using birth control. And please don’t say “abortion” – for a lot of woman that is not an acceptable option or for those that it is, it is still a heartbreaking, devastating experience.
And let’s not forget that STDs are often asymptomatic in women and can lead to cervical cancer (or if nothing else a really nasty biopsy procedure 10 years down the pike to figure out if she is even precancerous).
So if I am going to risk bearing a man’s child, I need to know him more than 12 dates – no matter how hot for him that I am!
And I know absolutely no one who had a great relationship after getting physically involved fairly quickly. All the relationships that I know of that lasted, sex was a long time in coming.
Georgeorge says
This sounds like religious propaganda. There has never been a documented case of essure failure. Nexplannon and IUDs fail 4-5 times out of a THOUSAND. An unwanted pregnancy should be of very little concern to any educated woman in any developed nation. This is not a rational reason to avoid having sex.
STDs are asymptomatic far more in men than in women. HPV can lead to cervical cancer, HPV is relatively asymptomatic in men. The changes that lead to cervical cancer are routinely caught on Pap smears. Most positive Paps require only a 6 month follow up, some require a colposcopy, RARELY do they require a biopsy. The HPV vaccines GREATLY reduce the risk of cervical cancer secondary to HPV.
If you educate yourself, practice safe sex, and visit your gynecologist regularly, there is no need to fear pregnancy and disease from sex.
Let me end with an equally subjective and meaningless statement as you ended with. All the relationships that I know of that lasted, sex happened early and often.
Michael Ejercito says
You mean they got pregnant even with the use of the pill and two layers of condoms?
Lisa says
I dont like the sound of these posts at all. Just horny men trying to justify pressuring a woman to have sex. Let me tell you something. You have to wait to have sex or the relationship will have problems .. why ? Because there has not been enough time for strong caring and respect to develop and because most people are always on their best behavior at first and it takes a while for their true personality to come out. You could be making a big mistake. Jump into bed too soon and you may regret who you slept with later. It hurts less to let someone go if you find out before sex they are not a nice person, not to mention the threat of an std . And sex is better with love and love takes time. And also if you jump in too soon the relationship may end. Not just on the man’s side but the woman’s too.Simply because you have nothing left to do or wait for and since you are not yet in love it all becomes boring. I think anyone who has sex too soon is a fool.
Lisa
verbosity says
LOL, Michael. Not to mention IUD’s, Morning after pills, patches & several other available methods.
My issue isn’t that Brian’s g/f wants to wait. That is a fine idea. My issue is that she tells him she wants to wait after 1/4 of a year has passed. Huh? It would seem that this is something to discuss OPENLY sometime before 3 months pass, and the reasons (exact reasons – not simply “I’ve been hurt”) she prefers to wait. We all know the giving and withholding of sex often used as tool in relationships, for both good and ill ends. Brian needs to consider that her lack of disclosure could possibly mask a less than pure intent on different levels. What I really hope doesn’t happen is that Brian’s the ‘nice guy’ she keeps on the back burner while she has fun with other guy(s) who tickle her fancy (and more?) more than Brian. Ok, I know that assumes facts not in evidence, but I trust readers see where I’m going with that.
Lance says
@Lisa. You could easily argue the opposite. On dates, when people take it slow, they’re not showing their “true colors.” They’ve put on a hyper polished persona that doesn’t reflect how they really feel. If I’m a passionate lover, it wouldn’t be congruent for me to act reserved for the 5-6 dates it takes for you to finally come around.
In fact, everyone is rough around the edges and probably has a lot of off-the-wall qualities. If you’re mutually attracted and you get the sex thing out of the way, the “real” personality comes out immediately. Why? Because you’re now comfortable.
Sex is NOT better with love. Sex is better when the sex is just… better. Leave love out of it. That’s when people get hurt, because they’ve attached unrealistic expectations and unreasonable value to an act that is primal and simple.
On the other hand, if you can’t handle the sex act early on (dates 1-4), then at least do some making out and heavy petting if you’re hot for each other. That way you’re at least acknowledging that you’re not castrated (guy) or a tedious (girl).
JuJu says
Jeannie,
while I see where you come from, it would take me personally a couple of years to know whether I want a child with this particular man. Waiting that long to have sex is, putting it mildly, unrealistic.
Also, and this is of utmost importance to me personally, putting off sex until you start caring about this person increases the risk of a huge disappointment later on over how he is in bed. After all, his skill and manner (and, I have to say, size and ability) is just information, like any other you gather about a new man in your life.
Lance,
I think what people mean when they say that is that a person who loves you would be much more inclined to give you pleasure.
downtowngal says
Hello?!? NEWSFLASH – Women are designed to take it slow. We’re told that guys only want sex, and if you give in too soon he won’t respect you.
So what’s a girl to do? Often these advice blogs and books tell us not to push a guy into having ‘the talk’ because we’ll scare him away, and 3 months is – well – ‘only’ 3 months.
What we really have here is a communication issue – this guy just wants to know where this girl is coming from. So, dude, be a man and ask her. Tell her how you feel about her and what you want from a relationship, what your expectations are. I mean, DUH! Least is that she’ll respect you; otherwise she’s probably thinking you’re either just dating her till she ‘puts out’ or just being nice.
AT says
Oh Jeannie. I want to respond to two things you said:
1. “…every woman either knows someone or herself that have gotten pregnant while using birth control.”
-I don’t.
2. “And I know absolutely no one who had a great relationship after getting physically involved fairly quickly. All the relationships that I know of that lasted, sex was a long time in coming.”
-The fact that you know absolutely no one who had a great relationship after getting physically involved fairly quickly doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. This is your experience, not everyone’s experience. Two of my friends had sex on their first date and they’re married now. I don’t recommend sex on the first date, but doing so is not a guarantee that the relationship won’t last. In trying to prove your point don’t assume that your world is indicative of the world at large.
Another thing: “Fairly quickly” is subjective. Is it one date? 4? 10? Or is it measured in days? Weeks? People do what they feel comfortable and what’s best for them.
While not completely irrelevant, this has little to do with the fact that the guy’s girlfriend hasn’t slept with him yet.
Robert says
Jeannie, my dad slept with his second wife on the night that they met at a party.
They’re still happily married………49 years later.
My experience is that interest level dictates when a couple first sleeps together. The higher the interest level, the sooner couples have sex. No other factor or condition is as big of a factor as high interest level.
Lance says
@Steve: I have been od’ing on PUA lit. I admit this. It’s turning me into kind of a douchebag.
downtowngal says
Robert, your father & stepmom’s experience is the exception, not the rule. It is truly rare that a woman would sleep with a guy on the first date and still have a LTR with him, and many guys would not respect a woman for doing so.
For women, sex is a big next step in a relationship; we get emotionally attached after sex so we need to know the guy is someone who’s committed to having a relationhip and seems to be what we’re looking for (i.e., values, interests, etc).
Mutual attraction is important, but there are many women who have felt this with a man, only to get broken hearted when he bails after having slept with him.
The real issue here is being honest with yourself and communicating your needs with your partner. A respectable woman won’t sleep with a guy to “prove” that she’s into him. And the right guy will respect her for that.
AT says
downtowngal: You’re right, it’s an exception, but it happens.
Sex isn’t “a big next step” for all of us. For SOME WOMEN it is. SOME WOMEN get emotionally attached. And sometimes we (okay, I – as not to speak for everyone) get emotionally attached after sex with some people but not others. Sometimes sex is purely physical. Some women don’t have the ability to just “get laid” without getting emotionally involved, and so they shouldn’t have sex for the sake of sex. Everyone is different.
Again, people are assuming that their experiences are universal. Lots of people will agree with you and identify with your experiences, and validate them. Some people will not, because it’s not their experience. In general, we base our perception of truth on our own experiences so our “truth” isn’t necessarily someone else’s “truth”. This doesn’t mean that one is right and the other is wrong, it just means that they’re different. I always emphasize that people should follow their instincts – their gut – because it’s usually right, even if it leads to hurt.
Lance sounds bitter and cynical. 🙂
Selena says
downtowngal Feb 29th 2008 at 04:34 am
” A respectable woman won’t sleep with a guy to prove that she’s into him.”
No, but a respectable woman may sleep with a guy if she IS into him.
verbosity says
Coincedence… my buddy told me of a radio show that discussed this yesterday, as a matter of fact.
It’s regarding Jennifer Aniston’s recent announcement that she’s going to not have sex till she finds Mr. Right, but has frozen her eggs.
The host said (Not exact quote, but close):
“If I know that the girl I’m with has had sex with more than one person, but they’re shutting me down because they want to wait for true love, they’re out. No one is going to tell me ‘Sex is only going to occur when I say it is.’ That’s perfectly fine, I don’t believe in rape, but if you’re not ready for sex, I’m not ready to date you. I’m not ready to go to dinner with you. I’m not ready to go on vacations with you. If you’re not ready for sex, I’m not ready to spend time with you. I’m just not, if I can’t have sex with you, I’m not interested.”
“This reminds me of those stories you used to read about women who say they are born again virgins. You know, the women who slept with EVERYBODY, until YOU. Now they’ve read ‘The Rules’ or the read ‘The Secret’ or some other book. Now they are going to turn over a new leaf now that they’ve met you. Even though they’ve had sex with everybody in town, the buck stops with you. These are the women on online dating services, their headline says “Friends First” or “I’ve had my fun”…”I’ve had my fun” means that now that I’m going to meet you, we’re not going to have any fun at all. I’ll be damned if I’m going to go out with you if you’ve already had your fun and now you’re done having fun. I’ve had fun in the past & I’m going to have fun in the future. If you like to have fun, I’m in. If you’re done having fun, start freezing your eggs, because it’s gonna be a cold day in hell before you meet Mr. Right…”
“What self-respecting man would be with a woman who says ‘I’m not having sex just for the sake of sex anymore. I’m done with that. Now I’m looking for true love.’ I’d rather have known you back then. I don’t want to know you now….So you’ve had your fun with everybody else so now that you’ve met me, now you’re saving yourself?”
Questions/Comments?
Michael Ejercito says
And then he would be into her.
Robert says
Downtowngal,
I agree with your observation, “A respectable woman won’t sleep with a guy to prove that she’s into him.” I didn’t suggest and I don’t believe that a woman should sleep with a man for any reason other than her own intrinsic desire to do so.
Selena put it very succinctly when she wrote that a respectable woman may sleep with a guy if she IS into him.
That’s the point that I’m making. A woman who IS into a guy, usually WANTS to sleep with him. Women who either aren’t into the guy or are ambivalent about him are less likely to sleep with him. I have no problem with that.
I simply think that it’s better for me to focus on women who ARE into me.
Selena says
Problem is: Some guys will sleep with a woman even if they AREN’T into her. After a few go-a-rounds with fellows like these, a respectable woman may conclude she’d rather get to know a gentleman a bit better before sleeping with him. Even if she ‘feels’ into him right away.
Selena says
Verbosity-
I’d say Jen and this DJ are not destined to make a love connection.
verbosity says
LOL, Selena. I’d say that’s pretty likely.
JuJu says
I am actually with this radio talk show host. If I didn’t need sex, I’d just hang out with a friend or something.
He may have been a bit cruel about hell freezing over before anyone meets their Mr.Right (but then, I am not sure I believe in the concept of “the one”), but, as novel and revolutionary a concept it may seem, sex is THE reason behind men-women relationships!
I am not advocating jumping into bed in the first few dates, some level of intimacy does have to be achieved first, I just don’t believe in overdoing it (waiting to see if the man would make a good father / life partner is overdoing it).
Being a woman, I’ve felt the effects of oxytocin firsthand. However, I also discovered it doesn’t happen automatically (with me). The man has to meet my minimum requirements (in the aspects of appearance, personality and intellect) for me to get attached. I’ve had a few highly interested in me men whom I discontinued seeing after sex because I just didn’t feel anything for them. After one such encounter I recall saying to my best friend, “If the guy never calls me again, I couldn’t care less – this is not the way I am supposed to feel!” It was our 4th or 5th date or something, and this was how I knew it’s time to break it off.
JuJu says
My previous post is incomplete.
Wanting to see first whether the man is relationship-minded _might_ seem like a valid concern, but, and this brings me to my original point, may also be completely irrelevant. Because, until you know what sex with him is like, how do you know whether _you_ want a relationship with him??? Not to continue Lori Gottlieb’s trend of citing TV shows as scientific research, but do you remember what happened to Charlotte?
I can give an example from my own life. I was so excited about this one man initially – pleasant appearance, tall, a scientist (I usually hit it off best with academics), and definitely seemed like a good enough person (I mean, it’s hard to tell with certainty within a few meetings) – I was attracted and simply COULDN’T WAIT to have sex with him! It was the worst sex of my life, bar none. This was, I think, two years ago, and the recollections still evoke nausea. It certainly did not concern me (pretty much as soon as it started) whether HE wanted a relationship with me.
(BTW, dear men on this site, what’s a woman to do when all she wants to say is, “You know what, you do what you want, but I have no desire to continue?”)
Now, this may not be common, and I am not claiming you should always expect the worst. But don’t discount the possibility.
m says
“Some guys will sleep with a woman even if they AREN’T into her. After a few go-a-rounds with fellows like these, a respectable woman may conclude she’d rather get to know a gentleman a bit better before sleeping with him. Even if she feels into him right away.”
Nail. Hammer. Bang.
It’s staggering to me how much trouble some of you guys seem to have wrapping your minds around this.
(Or perhaps some of you are the type that don’t give a damn. In which case the “respectable woman” looking for a long-term relationship should stay away from you in any case.)
verbosity says
Ah, JuJu. I like your perspective. But scientists? Come on, poindexters are no good in the sack….
I’m so kidding.
Selena says
JuJu,
Your posts remind me of convo’s I’ve had with girlfriends on the topic of sleeping with someone “too soon”. That is that while you can make a case for getting to know someone BEFORE having sex, having sex is also a part of getting to know someone.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to wait months becomming emotionally attached to someone only to find out we were really sexually incompatible. By contrast, I have had sex *early* and found out shortly thereafter that the guy wasn’t for me on other levels. And I’ve also had sex *early* with someone(s) and we were so totally into each other in every way that WHEN we did it was absolutely irrelevant.
I don’t think there is any kind of definitive when it comes to timing. It’s different for each individual and can be different regarding each potential lover that individual may have.
Lance says
@Steve and AT. I’m actually not bitter and cynical…I feel terrific about my love life and my relationship with people, women in particular. My previous comment was without irony. I HAVE been reading too much PUA lit and not balancing it with other stuff…a significant reason while I read EMK’s blog, so I can get the other perspectives. I have a good idea when I’m being a dickweed and I don’t have a problem admitting it. Neither should you folks.
@Selena. Your last para is gold, and the logical conclusion of this thread. There’s really no right and wrong, just a massive, infinite gray area. For some couples, sex on the first date is the “right” thing to do. For others, waiting much later is right. So be it.
Also, I never advocate having sex for the “wrong reasons,” but I’m a big fan of having sex if the two people want and can handle all the personal ramifications.
two.can.play (formerly dialog with verbosity) says
verbosity:” But scientists? Come on, poindexters are no good in the sack”
I resemble that comment.
😉
Actually, the truth is… we scientists do it with all the right instruments.
hunter says
to M,
..you said, “some guys will sleep with a woman..” I agree with you, it all starts with an erection…..
hunter says
to Selena,
..you said, “personally I would not want to wait months…..” That is another view that men don’t hear about…thank you…
hunter says
to juju
..you said, ..”this is not the way I am supposed to feel”…most men don’t know that women operate off of their “feelings.”
hunter says
to downtown gal,
…you said, “only to get broken hearted after he bails,” a similar question was asked of a widowed female therapist, she said, “all men leave, if they don’t walk away, they get carried out in a wooden box”…
just saying... says
as one dating expert was quoted as saying [sic], “nobody ever said, ‘gosh, I wish I’d slept with him sooner'”.
..’nuff said.
hunter says
to just saying,
…I know!..no one says that!…how boring……hhhmmhh, LOL!…
hunter says
to just saying,
..on second thought, according to therapists, many, many, women sleep with men, but there is no penetration…..please be as precise with wording, as you can with your post….hhmmmhh…LOL!…
Raindreamer says
I personally, would wan’t to wait and see if I can trust him, but I’ve always considered my feelings unusual and due to my fears, unlike how normal women would proceed. On my experience men don’t understand this kind of behaviour (and I don’t blame them), which has been painful in those occasions, when I’ve been truly interested in certain man. On the other hand, when I feel I am really interested in certain man I am in my heart already exclusive (as long as it lasts).
Selena says
just saying… Mar 1st 2008 at 05:52 am 60
“as one dating expert was quoted as saying [sic], nobody ever said, gosh, I wish I’d slept with him sooner.
I like that. But it’s one of those hindsight observations. The concept of “too soon” is hindsight as well. If things turn out great, there’s no such thing as “too soon”. But if they don’t….? That’s when you might question your timing.
m says
“most men don’t know that women operate off of their feelings.
Ummm …
Then where do we get all those endless “Men are Rational! Women are Emotional!” diatribes from?
Guys, please don’t use selective ignorance when trying (or at least trying to make it look like you’re trying) to work out relationship issues with us women.
When you say “I know women are X” and then use it against us, and THEN
when trying to “win” some later discussion with us, say “I didn’t know women are X”,
1) we will remember.
2) we will not think it’s cute.
Stifler's Mom says
Men may know that women are emotional creatures, but they have no idea how to interact on an emotional level…obviously the man-logic-problem-solver mind isn’t very useful there. On the other hand, women are just as ignorant when it comes to dealing with men at their level.
hunter says
to m,
yes,..women operate off their feelings, and it is not as if they believe everything men say,…. it just that they “rationalize”……
Michael Ejercito says
It makes you wonder how they manage to get together at all .
m says
After pondering the fact that the commenter who made the remark that started me off calls him/herself “Stifler’s Mom” instead of “Dad”, it occurs to me that that commenter could be a woman.
And in that case, I’d submit to the women here 00 and SM specifically — that if we just sort of let the whole thing go at “men don’t know how to cope with our emotions OR their own” and let them off the hook, we’re almost just as bad.
Because we’re excusing and enabling negative behavior (or, if that label ruffles you unduly, excusing/enabling behavior resulting in an outcome where neither party in the relationship is happy).
We’re none of us perfect. But if we’re going to be in relationship, don’t we all owe it to each other, men and women:
1) to know ourselves well so we can at least rationally ponder the possibility that something we’re doing might be contributing to the communication problem, whatever it is??
(Yes, gentlemen, that means a little introspection and self-awareness. It’s not poison, and you don’t have to tell your buddies. It won’t kill you.)
2) To at least try to see where the other person in the relationship is coming from so that even if we don’t agree with how they feel, we can at least begin to understand how they came to the conclusion that they did??
hunter says
to m,
….my goodness, somehow, I sense you have been around a rough crowd….but thanks for the “linear” explanation. I think so much better when I can understand thoughts, sayings, situations…
Lance says
@m: I’m definitely a dude. My name field was filled in from a previous (smartalecky) comment.
A great post, or heck, a book, would be to explore the communication differences of men and women (emotion vs. logic), and how to connect. I’m sure those are out there.
m says
Readers please note so no one is too confused — I wrote this post prior to the previous post.
It had an error, so Evan asked me to resubmit.
Men may know that women are emotional creatures, but they have no idea how to interact on an emotional level
Yet another excuse.
Lazy, lazy thinking. You all can do better than that.
Once upon a time, you didn’t know how to tie your shoes.
You didn’t know how to feed yourself.
You didn’t know how to dress yourself.
But I can’t imagine that you STAYED in that state of arrested development.
I feel sufficiently confident in the intelligent male commenters here that you will make the analogy to the deer-in-headlights state of I didn’t know above and draw the reasonable and logical conclusion.
HOWEVER
I will say it again.
You men are NOT rational when you’re putting your fist into the wall and turning red and foaming at the mouth and having to go to Anger Management classes because you can’t understand women and, as a purported result of the lack of understanding, you punch your wife or slap your girlfriend or do something equally violent to scare the bejeebus out of a woman in your life.
Newflash, guys anger IS an emotion.
Conclusion: You all are emotional too!! Gosh!! *gasp* *shock*
And finally, I’ll say it again.
Men are NOT always rational. Men are NOT always logical.
Some of the conclusions you reach make no sense whatsoever.
(Sometimes you even admit that whatever you’ve done makes no sense in the destructive aftermath of the mess you made.)
You gentlemen don’t necessarily problem-solve in a LOGICAL or RATIONAL way.
You problem-solve in a LINEAR way.
There is a difference.
m says
Hunter —
Not such a rough crowd, so I’d appreciate a reduction of insinuations.
(Although, see, you all can be subtle when you try , irrespective of how sinister your intent might be. ;-))
I just have friends. And I read newspapers/magazines/blogs. And I’m not in denial about what I see. That’s all.
m says
“A great post, or heck, a book, would be to explore the communication differences of men and women (emotion vs. logic), and how to connect. I’m sure those are out there.”
Lance –
1) Please stop making the emotion v. logic assertion. I devoted two whole posts to the premise that it’s more subtle than that.
You’re too smart to make such binary assertions.
2) Of COURSE there are books out there on the subject.
Here are some of the ones I know of:
http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Discourse-Deborah-Tannen/dp/0195101243/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204575425&sr=8-8
http://www.amazon.com/You-Just-Dont-Understand-Conversation/dp/0060959622/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204575425&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345379721/ref=pd_cp_b_2?pf_rd_p=317711001&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0380717832&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1MHA553TAS0DW8D4C3D2
However, my question to you is, if YOU knew that there were books out there on the subject, AND if our whole point of being here is to find some non-contentious ground for compromise in the battle of the sexes, why didn’t YOU post some of them?
AND if your answer is, Well, because I knew you would, then I must give you kudos for your game stroke on behalf of your brethren. Well-played.*
:sigh:
:rolleyes:
*Although I want my points, at least, for calling you on what you tried to pull. 🙂
hunter says
to m,
…you post an interesting combination of thoughts and feelings…
hunter says
to m,
…if we could really do better, we wouldn’t bother to be on here……..please ‘splain the lazy comment……
hunter says
to m,
..I can see men getting emotional, but, do we operate off of our feelings also?….
Lance says
@m: I quite fond of my binary assertions, mostly because I see them every single day (kind of like I’m fond of boobies, which are also binary in nature). Also, what posts are you talking about? I don’t see you rocking a blog anywhere.
Thanks for linking those books, I hadn’t looked those up before.
m says
“I [sic] quite fond of my binary assertions”
That’s all lovely, but the point of the comments was that it helps relationships to sometimes be interested in what the OTHER GENDER wants — not always to be hyperfocused on what YOU want.
Just when I thought we were all getting somewhere.
:rolleyes:
Mattie says
To m: thank you for your well thought-out, thought-provoking and witty posts. Sorry, everyone, to go off-topic; but m, my lovely, I think you of all people might find the following of interest:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/03/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety1
Best to you all.
trouble says
It’s interesting because I love the Myers Briggs personality quizzes, etc. And I’m dating a man who is an introverted rational and I’m an extroverted feeler. We are the typical Mars/Venus clash embodied, and multiplied.
And, yet, I think we do pretty well talking about our feelings because we work at it. And, sometimes, it is just that…work.
Seth says
Hi all,
I am the Seth from the blog entry. Just thought everyone might be interested to hear how things turned out – it’s been about 1 month since I initially sent Evan that email.
My girlfriend and I are still going strong. We became intimate less than a week after I wrote that note, and it has been very passionate since then. She has opened up to me a lot more and is very thoughtful and caring. We are very compatible in a lot of ways, too. She is such a great girl, and I feel like I’ve become a better guy since I’ve met her. We are actually planning to take a little weekend trip in a few weeks!
Just to add to this discussion, I think every situation has nuances, and it’s impossible to figure things out unless you really understand the other person. I completely agree with Evan, having the courage to broach sensitive topics has been crucial more than once in my relationship.
Just wanted to thank Evan for his help, and I wish Brian the best of luck with his lady.
Seth
Lance says
@Seth: That’s totally cool, and I mean that in an un-ironic way. Good to hear from you.
@m: Are you still busting my balls? I’m always interested in what women want. That’s part of my job. Also, stop rolling your eyes at me.
m says
Lance: As my goddaughter is fond of saying, you’re not the boss of me. I’ll roll my eyes when I like, at whom, and as often as I choose.
Plus, the more you talk, the more I’m sure I wouldn’t want to get anywhere near your balls.
:rolleyes:
Seth: Most sincere congratulations. On having guts and nuance, and best of luck for your relationship to bloom.
m says
Mattie – thank you for the compliments and the tip.
I took a look at the link; the author has more than one theory there (some of which I agree with and are germane to the conversation here).
It may take a minute for me to get back here on all that.
Cilla says
Bump.
I just started dating a guy I met online, and the relationship has been subtly sexual from the start. I think we both knew from the moment we met that we could have jumped in the sack together, but I am making him wait and being very clear about it. I have my suspicions that he’s a bit of a player, but I can’t figure out if he’s playing indefinitely or if he’s just playing until he finds a keeper. He claims to have had several long (4+ years) relationships in recent past and says he hasn’t slept with anyone in a year. I call BS on the last part, but having had dry spells myself, I guess I need to determine the truth. If he really is tiring of all the bull that comes with frequent casual sex, great. If he’s giving me a line, then I need to decide if I can live with being a booty call or I need to bail. Now the questions are: 1) when and how to get the real 411; 2) how long do I hold out before sleeping with him (I usually see somewhere between dates 4-7 as the magic number); and 3) do I make him hold out longer if I’m convinced he is a player, since the chase is more important? Will waiting an extra couple of dates even matter?
Eda says
Cilla,
In another post Evan mentioned that the time to have sex with a man is not based on a number, but how you feel about him. When you feel that he wants to have sex with you — and not just sex — then it’s the right time.
I’ve thought about your question of how do you get the 411 on what he really wants. I think what it really comes down to is do you like the way he treats you? Does he treat you like he really likes you and cares about you? When a guy likes a woman, he wants to do things for her — not necessarily big things but little things…little things that sometimes women dismiss as a man just being polite. For example, I went on a date and drove quite a distance to go dancing. After we danced, my date asked me if he could make me coffee for my ride home or if I wanted to him to talk to me on the phone during my ride home. Little things like that means a guy cares about you. So look for those little things because they really do mean something important. Do you feel that you really can be yourself with him? Do you really like him and does his behavior seem real and authentic around you? If yes, to those questions, that’s a really good sign that he could want a long term relationship with you. Finally, when you feel ready, you should just come right out and tell him what having sex means to you and ask him if it means the same to him. At the end of the day, it all comes down to trust –do you trust that this man has your best interest at heart and you have his best interests at heart — honesty — be upfront with yourself about what you want to give and receive from him/a relationship — and courage — the boldness to ask for what you want and be prepared to walk away if he wants something different.
m says
Cilla –
Do you have friends in common? They might know his backstory, if you really want to know the answer.
Why would you use a number as a gauge as to when to sleep with someone? Why would you not want to fan the romantic flames by holding out as long as you could until neither of you could stand it any longer?
Do you feel as though you have to offer him sex in order to keep him interested in you? Have you asked yourself that question? Do you really want to know the answer?
There are also other ways, if you take the time to think about it and are willing to be creative, to get the backstory on this guy. Do you really want to know the answer?
I think you see the common thread here. I think you may have a lot more information than you’re willing to admit to yourself.
(A good friend once told me people tell you everything you want to know about them within the first few minutes you meet them, if you ask the right questions.)
I have four last questions for you:
Have you asked the right questions?
Are you willing to ask the right questions?
What are you doing with the information you already have?
What are you going to do once you get the rest of the information you say you’re looking for?
Selena says
m-
Inquiring minds want to know: What are the *right* questions to ask in the first few minutes of meeting someone?
Tom Lee says
It is more reveling what she does than what she says, be a guy with some balls and don’t be so needy and it will go all well.
M says
I highly disagree that if a woman is not jumping into bed or attempting to be physical, that it means that she is not that into you.
For one, I am a woman. I love sex. I love the closeness, I love the feelings, and I have a hard time holding back during sex which makes it all the better.
What I DONT like is the feeling I get after.
After sex, I feel embarrassed. Embarrassed because I could not hold myself back.
I feel a bit subjugated. Not from the man, but by myself.
I feel dirty, wrong, and I feel like it was a mistake.
That reason alone keeps me from having sex often. I respect myself. I’m not some feminist, but I do feel sex should be an action between two souls, not two people making sex (not love) to each others bodies.
I hate it when guys become so focused on your body with what they are doing. It makes me feel like I’m not the thing they are putting so much passion into– and it’s not. Sex is putting passion into each others body, and to me, that sex just isn’t right.
So, I personally hold off on sex because I essentially don’t like it. As I said, not because of the amazing feelings you get during sex, but for the feelings after.
Oh plus, while I love how guys always get so happy after, it just adds on to the fact that I feel like we just– excuse me– I just satisfied his body. It makes me feel like a whore.
So ya, guys, not all girls hold out on physical things because they’re not feelin you.
starthrower68 says
I do find it interesting that the guy in this case was advised to initiate “the talk” but for women, that is a major faux pas. I know, it is what it is, but it’s very telling nonetheless.
I’m also reminded of something I read once how sex is to women what marriage is to men. Granted, some women can have sex and walk away, not get emotionally involved, etc. But I believe a good many women want to know that it’s emotionally safe (as well as physically) to allow herself to be that vulnerable to a man.
Karl R says
M said: (#91)
“I love sex. I love the closeness, I love the feelings,”
“I do feel sex should be an action between two souls, not two people making sex (not love) to each others bodies.”
“I hate it when guys become so focused on your body with what they are doing.”
“Sex is putting passion into each others body, and to me, that sex just isn’t right.”
So when you have sex, you feel closeness and feelings … which you love.
But you believe when men have sex, they are purely focused on your body, and paying no attention to the closeness and the feelings?
You assume that men are somehow vastly different than you, that they’re engaging in sex on a purely superficial level. Have you considered the possibility that you’re completely misreading what’s going on in men’s minds? Have you considered that the flaw might not lay in men’s attitude toward sex, but in your attitude toward men?
M said: (#91)
“while I love how guys always get so happy after, it just adds on to the fact that I feel like we just— excuse me— I just satisfied his body.”
Has it occurred to you that the man might be happy because he just made you feel amazing?
M said: (#91)
“After sex, I feel embarrassed.”
“I feel like we just— excuse me— I just satisfied his body. It makes me feel like a whore.”
“I feel dirty, wrong, and I feel like it was a mistake.”
As a man I would never want to have sex with anyone who shares your attitude. Let me draw an analogy that might explain why:
It’s Christmas. You receive a wonderful gift from a friend of yours -and- that friend is thrilled with the gift you gave him/her. You’d be happy, right? You would feel amazing.
The next day you drop by your friend’s house and see the gift you gave to your friend, in the trash, half buried under a pile of dog poop.
How would you feel then? How would you feel about the gift you received from your friend? How eager would you be to exchange gifts with your friend in the future?
When I have sex with my girlfriend, we are both giving a gift to each other. Unlike you, we are both capable of receiving the gift in the spirit that it was given. And I can’t claim that’s because we “took it slow”. We first had sex less than one week after we started dating (though we had been acquaintances for months prior).
M said: (#91)
“So ya, guys, not all girls hold out on physical things because they’re not feelin you.”
I hardly find it reassuring that an alternate explanation is that the woman might have significant issues with sex. That seems like a bigger red flag to me.
DianeM says
The fact is, a man is absolutely NOT entitled to me until we make that ultimate commitment: marriage. If I would choose to have sex with him before then, it would be because that commitment was truly on the horizon.
Our culture is way too casual with sex. Sure, a lot of guys, and even some women, are able to have mindless sex with no emotional ties, but some guys and most women bring their emotions to the table. I would put justifying a relationship with sex right up there with believing a man should pay for every date if he truly loves you. Yeah, okay.
When you have sex with someone, you give that person a part of you that you can never take back. Is someone you’re merely dating really worth that? I don’t think so. I’d rather save it for someone who truly loves me. As a wise man once wrote, “Love is patient…” Three months, six months, one year: that is not patient for something so important, for something that should be an expression of true love.
This blog post brought up sex and commitment, and I will tell you this: sex does not equal commitment. Sex is part of a commitment. If a man wants to know if I’m really into the relationship, ask me to be exclusive! As our relationship honestly matures, sex will become a part of it.
Suzanne says
This was a great post and the commentary very interesting. I think it all reflects that everyone has to decide for themselves their own comfort level.
I have chided my current boyfriend of one year…I have had sex on the first date three times across 35 years…he being #3. The first was my husband of 22 years and the second was my husband of seven years (passed away). I have had many dates with many prospects that never progressed to a relationship or sexually. Just these three men.
I guess all I could say was I knew when I met each of them that all of the elements were present. Or I was just exceptionally fortunate.
blueberrie says
Hmm well this guy in the article, to ME comes off as he’s all bent out of shape about the fact they haven’t progressed passed making out. And I think that’s the heart of the matter, him talking to her to find out what the problem is good but you know it’s also pressure… have had these discussions with men so many times. Their goal in a relationship is sex. a girl’s goal is not always sex, it’s companionship, knowing you can trust this person, feeling comfortable with them, and yes knowing that they are going to stick around and typically that just doesn’t happen within a handful of dates. If you think about friends you’ve known, how often did you dive right into a relationship with them and hand over everything you have to them within two weeks of knowing each other? most people would say it didn’t start that way…. got to know each other over time. same for a girl in a relationship… SURE the sex part is there and she MAY want to get naked with him on the first date but I mean would you hand over your bank card and pin number to someone you just got together with one time? it’s sort of similar. it’s a huge risk. some people are comfortable handing everything over and damn the consequences and other people are more cautious.
another way to look at it is this… a guy who wants his physical needs met that quickly, I’d roll out the legal paperwork that says okay dokay we can get physical as long as you just sign on the dotted line that if I get pregnant from doing this then you are committed to 18 years of child support, being in my life for that long or that you are legally bound to pay half the expenses regarding termination which includes coming with me, being emotionally supportive etcetc or if I happen to get an std from all of this that you are willing to all that is necessary in that respect as well. and yes I do agree with one of the posters here who said men do look at you a certain way if you sleep with them too soon as well, THEN all the questions start with well do u do this with everyone??? etc etc so woman are CONSTANTLY put under the “pressure” of being physical in the relationship usually VERY quickly and then left to deal with the sometimes panic and insecurity that can go along with the consequences of those actions.
I don’t think it really has a lot to do with whether the woman is into the guy or not, I think if she’s continuing to go out with him, then that’s a sign she’s interested enough in him to know more about him… to see if she can trust him or will he hang around or be there for her etc etc. if she doesn’t sleep with him then maybe it’s more about he’s not proven himself yet and that just doesn’t happen within a couple of dates. and to blame it on the fact that she’s been hurt in the past, and that she needs therapy so she can suddenly get naked with a guy after a few dates, that’s complete BS. I don’t know, why can’t a guy put a ring on it after 2 dates? goes both ways. maybe he needs therapy for that. just sayin….
judy says
Karl 93 – M said: (#91)
“After sex, I feel embarrassed.”
“I feel like we just— excuse me— I just satisfied his body. It makes me feel like a whore.”
“I feel dirty, wrong, and I feel like it was a mistake.”
I have been reading this and trying to identify with the lady’s feelings.
For me, this statement of hers speaks volumes. She was sleeping with the wrong guy OR she ignored her own speed.
When a woman says she wants to go slowly, for me, I would translate that as “Hm. How do I tell him that I’m unsure of him?? Without being rude?” (Answer for me – I go slowly and if I’m still unsure I don’t sleep with him or I end the relationship unless I can communicate to him, if I’m sufficiently interested in him (those are truly important words) why I’m anxious, shy, embarrassed or whatever.
Only one man in my whole life tried to make me feel like a whore. He had the misfortune to tell me that ALL WOMEN ARE WHORES.
Great. Thanks.
He was rather surprised when I asked him if he thought that I was one too. Answer – not yet (I am not joking and neither was he). Naturally, I ended the relationship. (And I’m still wondering why on earth I didn’t just walk out when he said “All women are whores”. Shocked, I think)
Yes, the sex with him was embarrassing. Because some men don’t have good bedroom manners, such as at least being kind to you.
Wonder what you or others think? I enjoy hearing your point of view Karl and of course, our host Evan (sorry Evan, no slight meant).
Sparkling Emerald says
Haven’t read all the comments, but it seems to me there is a BIG issue with who goes first in deciding the direction of the relationship.
It used to be a gender norm that the man led. He asked for the date, he asked to be exclusive, he initiated sex, he proposed marriage, etc.
Now that gender norms have been turned upside down, and we’re not all on the same page, there are men who think a girl isn’t into him if she doesn’t take on what was traditionally the male role. (See the big debate in the comments section under -“How do I make sense of all the dating advice out there)
Men have argued on this blog that women should pay for part of the date, ask them out, etc. Doc Love on “Ask Men” sells a “system” to men that advocates being a “challenge” and only progress the relationship at the WOMAN’S initiation. (Beyond the man asking for the first date 9 days after asking for her phone #) Dating coaches for women say NEVER to do that. (initiate or chase) It almost seems like a stand off takes place, two people REALLY are into each other but NEITHER one wants to be the first to say it.
I have learned from experience that ME saying it first, DOESN’T work. Every guy who was ever really into me, LET ME KNOW, early on. Explicitly, with words and actions. If I have ever wondered “where I stood” in a relationship, I had no standing and no relationship. So why ask ? Time to say “next”.
I know I am going to get an argument on this, but that has been my experience, your experience might have been different. Believe me, I really wish I could be the one to bring up the exclusive talk or where do you see this relationship going conversation. But instead, if the guy doesn’t bring it up, and my feeling is that he’s just not into me (but wants to be into my pants) I just pull my own disappearing act. Then I have a little nagging voice in my head that says, “Maybe he WAS into me, but doubted if I was into him, and if I just told him . . .” but my past tells me something different. Of course, my whole “I like you but I’m not ready” spiel has gotten the hard truth from some guys, that all they want is NSA sex. (Usually not put so crudely, but rather, “I’m not ready for a relationship, but I am enjoying THIS –meaning they are enjoying trying feel me up)
And yeah, I know one shouldn’t define relationships from past experience, but I also think past relationship should be a LEARNING experience. I have LEARNED that if a man really likes me, wants a relationship, he WILL LET ME KNOW !
judy says
Sparkling Emerald 98 –
“Believe me, I really wish I could be the one to bring up the exclusive talk or where do you see this relationship going conversation.”
NOT a good idea. Surely his actions should let you know?
Sparkling Emerald says
[email protected] “NOT a good idea. Surely his actions should let you know?”
I KNOW it’s not a good idea, my ENTIRE post was all about how it’s not a good idea, which is why I DON’T initiate the convo. Just said I WISH I could, but I DON’T ! And I gauge actions AND words. It they don’t jive, well, it’s NEXT !
Sorry if this sounds snarky, it’s not meant to. 🙂
Widowed says
it is possible she is afraid to get pregnant. Was she raised in a religious home? A friend of mine did not have sex with his now wife until they married. She was honoring her religion.
Morpheus says
Don’t fall for that nonsense. Take it slow is code for ”Ive never taken anything slowly until I met you cos you’re such a darned nice guy but you don’t get me excited at all. You might make a good stable boring partner though hmm”.
Jess says
12 or 13 dates. oh no. you poor fool. stop jerking off and grow a pair and start dating other women. All your security stuff sounds like you are a puppy dog.
Adam says
Watch! Her saying about “taking it slow” might mean something else.
She might also be dating/seeing someone else she is more interested in(most likely a walking money bag), giving him an advantage to fall for her and then turn and tell you about “let’s just be friends”
Some of the signs to look for in this, is if she never calls you/never answers/never returns your calls,
another sign is by not bothering with talking to her for a while whether in person or calling her and see if she makes any effort to let you know she misses you. If she doesn’t; it’s time to move on!
Nissa says
There are some distinctions here that I’m quite surprised were not discussed. Evan makes the point that a woman who is not sleeping with you, who is not committing to you and who is not making effort is not that into you. I can agree with that.
However, it doesn’t address something else. The poster said he wanted clarity and security. I was very surprised he didn’t just ask for it. Surprised he didn’t express it verbally (I really like X about you – I enjoy spending time with you – the more I know you the better I like you). If the woman felt the same, she would then reciprocate (and could do so without becoming the aggressor as could occur if she makes these statements first). As a woman, if I did not hear those things from a man, I would assume he it was because he wasn’t feeling those things. Also, if the woman is saying yes to spending time together, yes to being exclusive, verbally confirming her reciprocity of feeling- those things are tantamount to her making effort.
So while all three together would mean SJNTIY, one out of three would not.
In the poster’s case, it seems that he failed to ask the woman to be exclusive with him. This then puts him outside of Evan’s criteria. The girlfriend did not reject him, the poster failed to ask. By itself, that easily accounts for her seeming lack of interest…he was not establishing a precedent for her to reciprocate. She may well have been trusting the OP to follow his own timeline of when exclusivity felt right for him, instead of imposing her own timeline. That seems like a good thing to me.
Contrast that with a another scenario. The man asks, and the woman says yes to dates, to time together, to exclusivity, but no to sex . If she explains that while she very much likes & desires him personally, and is willing to be exclusive, is willing to make effort that mirrors the man in intensity, that sex is not part of her courtship process for an indefinite period. To me, this woman is still “very much into that man” as he seems to be, yet is allowing for the fact that it will take time and relationship to really get to know him. Would that limit this woman’s dating pool? Quite likely. But that might seem like the lesser evil to her, than getting carried away by one’s passion and making more of the relationship than it really is (as many of us have done).
FWIW, when I met the man I married, it took about five minutes to recognize that given minimal encouragement, I could really be into him. However, I think it was about 9 months before I slept with him. Not because I had no desire, or because I was interested in anyone other than him. I think it just took that long for me to know that he wasn’t just passing time or just interested in sex….he was interested in ME, and spending his life with me. Even if the relationship had not resulted in marriage, I think I would still have been content with how much of myself I invested. And to be honest, the sex might have happened far sooner had my husband invested himself sooner.
jelizasch says
First of all, I don’t think that you can put everybody in the same box nor can you determine another person’s intentions without talking to them. Some women (and men) may be dealing with mistrust or fear of getting hurt, but others might have different reasons. Second, taking it slow is not necessarily code for “I’m not that into you”. In fact, it’s quite the opposite for me (and taking it slow is not easy when you are into someone). I want to take it slow because I see a possible future with someone and I believe that physical intimacy should develop WITH emotional intimacy…as you get to know each other and feelings grow, so should physical affection. Passion and physical intimacy are both extremely important to me in a relationship and I am certainly not taking it slow because I am insecure. I do, however, want to be in love with someone that I’m sleeping with and not have just met him three weeks prior on a blind date. Being that vulnerable and open physically with someone when you haven’t exposed what’s at the heart of who you are as a person seem out of balance to me. Ultimately, I take things slow because I want something more. I’m not looking for a relationship that lasts for six months or a year and fizzles out because we realize the sex was great but we really aren’t that into eachother. I’m looking for a a strong, long lasting relationship built on mutual respect, common interests, and…when the time is right…great sex. My advice if you are wondering what the deal is with your girl? Ask her.
Jose Duarte says
Men and women do not speak the same language.
Women
Take it slow= I want to string you and 10 other guys along while I look for the man with the most money.
Men
Take it slow= there’s something wrong with the front axle. We need to take it slow until I can get to my friend’s house to fix it.
Crisis averted. Men, keep your cash in your wallet and your Trojans in your pocket.
Victoria Zabaras says
All you guys wanting fast sex are narcissistic selfish pigs who need to go live with each other and each other‘s selfish grabby manipulations. You are well on the inside and sucking up women’s lives and emotional health, damaging them for the purpose of feeling bigger than you are. My advice to the women: If a guy wants fast sex try to screw him over royally because that‘s all he wants to do to you.
John says
Pay attention to what women do and not what they say. Be especially careful if she says to take it slow while she is still on dating sites… A woman who is TRULY in to a man rarely wants to “take is slow”. “I want take it slow” means “you’re nice, I like you, keep me company and buy me meals until I meet the guy with whom I won’t want to take it slow”..